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Letter to investigate LDS Corp leads to bodies in logan
Posted: 11 March 2016 01:19 PM [ Ignore ]
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Morethanmo
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Take a look at breaking news! KSL covers up the part about what the letter says!!
http://fox13now.com/2016/03/11/letter-to-newspaper-leads-police-to-two-bodies-in-logan/
edited typo in title
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__________________________________________
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________
Posted: 11 March 2016 01:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Kevin2
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The article leaves a lot to the imagination. I look forward to details emerging. I really hope the NYT investigates. After the movie Spotlight won best picture I found myself hoping a major paper would do a similar investigation of the Morg.
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck
Posted: 13 March 2016 10:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Jon Marshall
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I am betting one of his frustrations, and its mine also is that the Countless Teachings of having faith and giving Blessings to heal his wife, like mine are for not. They don't work. I have constantly let missionaries, bishops, stake presidents, her dad and brothers give her blessings and not one time has it ever worked. Oh i am sure they are blaming me and my awful way of life that its the reason she is not getting healthy. To me its a crock. Sometimes the body just does not ever want to get better. Its not for some unknown reason or life lesson.
Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com
Posted: 13 March 2016 04:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Morethanmo
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Jon Marshall:
I am betting one of his frustrations, and its mine also is that the Countless Teachings of having faith and giving Blessings to heal his wife, like mine are for not. They don't work. I have constantly let missionaries, bishops, stake presidents, her dad and brothers give her blessings and not one time has it ever worked. Oh i am sure they are blaming me and my awful way of life that its the reason she is not getting healthy. To me its a crock. Sometimes the body just does not ever want to get better. Its not for some unknown reason or life lesson.
My very devout aunt once told my mom that her friend got cancer because she didn't go to church to which my mom quickly replied that general authorities get cancer and die too. It never seems to sink in with them that EVERYONE dies. The only thing that differs is the method.
Signature
__________________________________________
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________
Posted: 13 March 2016 06:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Interesting. I am certain LDS, Inc does plenty of illegal business, which they use money to cover and get away with. Hope we learn more of what this man was thinking. Thanks for posting!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 14 March 2016 12:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
former victim
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Several of us Post Mo's had the good fortune to know Dell and Mary, and their position on TSCC was quite pronounced. I found both, to be intelligent and articulate friends whenever we conversed.
As far as his letter to the N Y Times and his check goes, he may have been onto some thing significant, and wanted it known before his demise. Myself, I wouldn't put it past him or Mary to be a loud whistle blower on matters concerning TSCC.
Maybe the Times will send out an investigative reporter to follow up on the information that it has received. Since its most likely not faith promoting, it may never see the light of day around Happy Valley...but then again it just might.
Posted: 14 March 2016 03:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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former victim:
Several of us Post Mo's had the good fortune to know Dell and Mary, and their position on TSCC was quite pronounced. I found both, to be intelligent and articulate friends whenever we conversed.
As far as his letter to the N Y Times and his check goes, he may have been onto some thing significant, and wanted it known before his demise. Myself, I wouldn't put it past him or Mary to be a loud whistle blower on matters concerning TSCC.
Maybe the Times will send out an investigative reporter to follow up on the information that it has received. Since its most likely not faith promoting, it may never see the light of day around Happy Valley...but then again it just might.
Lucky you--former victim. They sound like informed and honest people. I hope what they hoped for comes of this.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 14 March 2016 05:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Morethanmo
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Morethanmo:
Jon Marshall:
I am betting one of his frustrations, and its mine also is that the Countless Teachings of having faith and giving Blessings to heal his wife, like mine are for not. They don't work. I have constantly let missionaries, bishops, stake presidents, her dad and brothers give her blessings and not one time has it ever worked. Oh i am sure they are blaming me and my awful way of life that its the reason she is not getting healthy. To me its a crock. Sometimes the body just does not ever want to get better. Its not for some unknown reason or life lesson.
My very devout aunt once told my mom that her friend got cancer because she didn't go to church to which my mom quickly replied that general authorities get cancer and die too. It never seems to sink in with them that EVERYONE dies. The only thing that differs is the method.
Sorry Jon. I didn't mean to be insensitive to your situation, but wanted to emphasize that mormons read into every ailment and situation as a sign from gawd.
Signature
__________________________________________
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________
Posted: 14 March 2016 07:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Jon Marshall
Sr. Member
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Joined 2012-08-22
No offense taken at all. I knew where you were coming from. My wife also sees that the blessings are more for the people performing them and if it gives her a little hope than its all good. I think she sees that its a crock. I mean she has had some deep meaning, heart felt, tears flowing prayers and blessings that say she will be healed. But i guess my being a person who can only give her TEMPORAL things on Earth is holding her healing back.
Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com
Posted: 15 March 2016 04:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
former victim
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Jon, From my experience thus far, it really is those TEMPORAL things that we do, that really make a difference. That's it in a nutshell.
Posted: 15 March 2016 10:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Jon Marshall
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former victim:
Jon, From my experience thus far, it really is those TEMPORAL things that we do, that really make a difference. That's it in a nutshell.
Agree. I just have to laugh at my TBM IN-Laws christmas letter that said that I am able to give my wife the Temporal things she needs. Funny how they always have to give a little dig whenever they have the chance to show that i am not leading the life they are.
Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com
Posted: 18 March 2016 08:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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victim
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Morethanmo:
Take a look at breaking news! KSL covers up the part about what the letter says!!
http://fox13now.com/2016/03/11/letter-to-newspaper-leads-police-to-two-bodies-in-logan/
edited typo in title
Many are saddened/shocked by the events surrounding the death of Dell/ Mary! This ending is not one those of us who were acquaintances of either would have ever imagined! There is likely a great deal of information we don't know at this time! Hmmm, murder, suicide - a compassionate end to life - a possibility, but a comprehensive, criminal investigation is in order here/when legally appropriate, a release of all pertinent information to the public inclusive of Dell's plea to the New York Times asking for help in exposing the mormon fraud?! Remember, things are not always what they appear to be at first glance - but, the pursuit of truth/justice is paramount! I would also suggest a thorough Justice Department/IRS Investigation of this obvious theo-political Cult masquerading as a legitimate, mainstream, christian religion that in real terms preys on innocent humanity throughout our world while claiming a (501)(c)(3) Tax Exemption! Truth: In the elitist world of oppressive mormonsim, the happy face facade must be preserved at all costs - anything goes while protecting the kingdom of absurdity/lies! Cult operatives in positions of authority/influence will do their best to cover-up any damaging information about the so-called church/complicit, local conspirators!
Apostle Dallin Oaks:
dallin oaks"My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
It's clear that we must remain forever diligent/clamor for transparency in this case!
Our discussions with both Dell/Mary were always, stimulating, interesting, subject to a good laugh/oftentimes dealt with the many well documented contradictions/ inconsistencies in mormon Cult history! Pathological lying uttered from the mouth of profit jo smith jr./his debased, psychopathic cronies is blatantly obvious/documented from the beginning to the present in the Smith Family Fraud for Profit that hides behind God - yes, Smith Family Fraud for Profit that hides behind God - you know, the alleged, one true, mormon church on earth absurdity!?
Truth: Both Dell/Mary were brave souls who put themselves out there in the line of fire, if you will, in-spite of mormon church debachery/treachery they knew would be directed at them/all others with the courage to speak up/challenge the dominant Cult religion in Utah that controls everything of relevance including Local/State Governments, inclusive of the Governor's Office, Court System, Law Enforcement, Public Education/the demise thereof, sustained by a Corporate Power Broker World that makes a modern day mormon Theocracy/One Party Political System an awful, abusive, degrading reality in the so-called State of Utah! Dell/Mary - Rest in Peace! You will be missed! victim
Posted: 18 March 2016 06:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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What Dallin Oaks said here is some scary stuff.
Apostle Dallin Oaks:
dallin oaks"My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 18 March 2016 06:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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LostInParadise
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Joined 2015-12-08
Strong Free & Thankful:
What Dallin Oaks said here is some scary stuff.
Apostle Dallin Oaks:
dallin oaks"My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
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"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
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Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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[Post-Mormon Mag.]
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
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To do an LDS Funeral or Not
Posted: 19 March 2016 08:54 AM [ Ignore ]
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Jon Marshall
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My friend at work asked me this question yesterday and was shocked that i was OK with my wife having an LDS Funeral if and when she passes from her health issues.
To me its just an ordinary funeral excpet that it will be held at a Church. Our ward bishop will speak and maybe a few others. I am sure they will do the normal LDS eternal family thing and over dramatize most of it. I told him that to me its just the same as having a Funeral in a Catholic church or any other God centered Church.
I am not going to let my beliefs overtake what she wants.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
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Posted: 19 March 2016 09:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Jon Marshall:
My friend at work asked me this question yesterday and was shocked that i was OK with my wife having an LDS Funeral if and when she passes from her health issues.
To me its just an ordinary funeral excpet that it will be held at a Church. Our ward bishop will speak and maybe a few others. I am sure they will do the normal LDS eternal family thing and over dramatize most of it. I told him that to me its just the same as having a Funeral in a Catholic church or any other God centered Church.
I am not going to let my beliefs overtake what she wants.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
I think you are right on and it is very honorable of you to do what your wife wants here. You will get through it. Look what you already made it through. It will be hard losing her though. Just no way around that but I will bet knowing you were true to her wishes will bring you comfort. Sorry this is happening.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 19 March 2016 10:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
jellybean
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My husband and I were talking about this a few weeks back. We decided that it would probably depend on if our parents were still alive when we passed. If they were we would be OK with an LDS type thing, if not then we wouldn't bother. Neither of us really want a funeral anyway, just a graveside for close family and friends. If we are super old most of the LDS people would be passed before us. I think it's great to honor her wants and do what would make her happy.
Posted: 19 March 2016 01:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I would do what my wife wanted. Then I'd hold a limited invitation wake afterward. One ceremony for her. One for me.
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Posted: 19 March 2016 02:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Sunbeep
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I faced this very situation 4 years ago. My wife's family was 110% morgified and her Father was footing the bill. So, she got the full 3 day version complete with funeral potatoes, brutal viewing lines, and of course the bishop bestowing the plan of salvation over the pulpit.
Like your wife, mine had been sick for a long time and it wasn't a surprise when she passed. We knew it was coming and I/we were mentally prepared for it. To not have an LDS funeral was not an option for me to make.
I don't know what a non-mormon funeral is like, but I will certainly be there for my own when it comes around. Since I won't be aware, I guess I won't care. The only thing I know and care about at the moment is that my kids are informed that I won't be wearing a white costume, baker's hat, and a green loin flag. There won't be multiple viewings, sermons, prayers, bishops, singing, etc.
When my Dad passed last October there were 5 of us siblings. Four didn't give a rat's ass about the morg and pushed for a graveside service only. One sister was steeped in mormonistic ways and insisted that Dad would have wanted the full service. Four against one is good odds unless the one has gawd behind her. The only concession we got from her was to emliminate the hymn singing.
In my opinion, do what causes you the least amount of stress. Sitting through a morg funeral is do-able if it keeps peace in the family. If your wife would have wanted that, then do it. It's her time for one last moment. Good luck.
Posted: 19 March 2016 05:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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My wife did state emphatically that she wants her funeral to be held at the Church, and not the Mortuary, only the viewing can be held at the Mortuary.
The past 2 years of her health decline has given us ample time to talk about the "what ifs" and what i need to do and so on. I know I will bury her in her Temple garb. Its not anything meaningful to me. I have not had my own set for years so I don't hold them in such high regard. They are just clothes you wear in the Temple.
I know there will be the plan of salvation talks and I am sure maybe even some jabs at me being the Temporal husband. The thing is though, if her family would really talk to me to me and listen, i still believe in a lot of what they believe, just not in the Church as a foundation of Faith or that i need to follow Leaders that have no true gift of God, who teach in fear and ultimatiums. I know that my wife and I will be together for eternity. I have no doubt about that. But they will not see it that way or even want to listen.
Oh well....
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Posted: 19 March 2016 06:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Jon Marshall:
My wife did state emphatically that she wants her funeral to be held at the Church, and not the Mortuary, only the viewing can be held at the Mortuary.
The past 2 years of her health decline has given us ample time to talk about the "what ifs" and what i need to do and so on. I know I will bury her in her Temple garb. Its not anything meaningful to me. I have not had my own set for years so I don't hold them in such high regard. They are just clothes you wear in the Temple.
I know there will be the plan of salvation talks and I am sure maybe even some jabs at me being the Temporal husband. The thing is though, if her family would really talk to me to me and listen, i still believe in a lot of what they believe, just not in the Church as a foundation of Faith or that i need to follow Leaders that have no true gift of God, who teach in fear and ultimatiums. I know that my wife and I will be together for eternity. I have no doubt about that. But they will not see it that way or even want to listen.
Oh well....
Beautiful. They cannot hear you. They really are brainwashed and hypnotized. I believe that.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 19 March 2016 06:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Jon Marshall:
My friend at work asked me this question yesterday and was shocked that i was OK with my wife having an LDS Funeral if and when she passes from her health issues.
To me its just an ordinary funeral excpet that it will be held at a Church. Our ward bishop will speak and maybe a few others. I am sure they will do the normal LDS eternal family thing and over dramatize most of it. I told him that to me its just the same as having a Funeral in a Catholic church or any other God centered Church.
I am not going to let my beliefs overtake what she wants.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
Life is oftentimes unfair - I'm so sorry that your wife is critically ill! It is her funeral/her choice! I would do as you are doing/not stand in her way! You can always spend some solitary, quiet, respectful time with her at the cemetary after the mormon funeral is over! My deepest regards! victim
Posted: 19 March 2016 06:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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victim:
Jon Marshall:
My friend at work asked me this question yesterday and was shocked that i was OK with my wife having an LDS Funeral if and when she passes from her health issues.
To me its just an ordinary funeral excpet that it will be held at a Church. Our ward bishop will speak and maybe a few others. I am sure they will do the normal LDS eternal family thing and over dramatize most of it. I told him that to me its just the same as having a Funeral in a Catholic church or any other God centered Church.
I am not going to let my beliefs overtake what she wants.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
Life is oftentimes unfair - I'm so sorry that your wife is critically ill! It is her funeral/her choice! I would do as you are doing/not stand in her way! You can always spend some solitary, quite, respectful time with her at the cemetary after the mormon funeral is over! My deepest regards! victim
Thanks so much. The hard part about her disease and health is that it could take years for her to die or it could be tomorrow. So we never know. No one has ever lived this long with the severity and complications she has. Some people who have her disease will have one flareup and die from it. It is so random. We went to a Conference in October and met lots of others with her disease, there are 3 different types and they are thinking she is so unique that she might be catergorized just by herself. But 5 people have died since October from it and thats just who they know about who was publicized. I don't think her family is ready for it. We are. Our daughter knows and is ok with it.
I will always spend time with her quietly. But i will also do what she wishes.
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Posted: 20 March 2016 04:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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When all is said and done Jon, what will matter most to you and yours, is how you will feel about what has been done. The fact that you're willing to comply with your wife's aftercare request says a lot about your deep commitment to each other. What others think, is irrelevant.
What you two have both agreed upon in confidence, is what will count or matter most in the end, for the both of you.
Posted: 20 March 2016 07:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Yeah. To me its not a big deal. But to my friend at work he was shocked that i said i was ok with it. I want to know why? Did he think i was going to just go all out Agnostic or do a witch ceremony and call down spirits and do a sacrafice? He is the one who told me that he has a friend who is not mormon and really anti-LDS, but would convince me to stay in the Church. Hmm.... I wonder sometimes about him.
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Posted: 20 March 2016 03:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Jon Marshall:
.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
I won't ever be the one arranging a LDS funeral but it is not a big deal to me to attend one. Only hitch is I have to wear a skirt, because I never do otherwise.
I hope that person who asked the question is also a good friend and not just a curious co-worker. It is a private decision between you and your wife.
My friend had a wonderful Catholic funeral for her Catholic husband, even though she is not Catholic. A very simple decision for her--simply, "he is Catholic".
We were at a very Mormon funeral just yesterday for the wife of a former Stake Patriarch and Temple President. The obituary gave the time of the funeral, and the announcement that internment would happen before that, so no one knew where to go unless invited.
The viewing was held in the funeral home on Friday night. Also not announced.. and was for family and invited friends.
The internment was only family mid-morning.
It was all very pleasant, well as much as can be, but the family did not have to deal with the onslaught of well wishers and their grief...only our own.
The time in the Relief Society room was quiet, lots of gentle visiting going on, no music, no others came in. No friends were invited in. the bishop spoke just a bit, family prayer was said, and then we made the long walk down the hall to the chapel.
I wish they were all like this one. Friends can visit with the family before or for weeks after--preferably after when the husband will be really alone.
I am sorry you and your wife have to go though this. I wish you both strength and serenity.
Em
Posted: 20 March 2016 06:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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The friend who asked is an older gentleman who has dealt with 3 or 4 divorces in his life and he is as gung ho as all to try to be the best mormon he can be and if anyone he knows is on the fence or leaving the Church, he takes it upon himself to be the LOVE BOMBING director, producer and actor.
I know that when the time comes I will be able to do Right by my wife and the wishes that she wants. I know what will be said, since i have lived it and been raised in the Church. I have seen it. I do know that snide remarks will be made in spite of my sadness and grief, because in their eyes it will be TO BETTER ME. I know they are just doing what they think is best. And to them that is showing me love.
The only thing different to from a mormon funeral to any other religion one, is the setting and the tone.
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Posted: 20 March 2016 07:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Jon Marshall:
The friend who asked is an older gentleman who has dealt with 3 or 4 divorces in his life and he is as gung ho as all to try to be the best mormon he can be and if anyone he knows is on the fence or leaving the Church, he takes it upon himself to be the LOVE BOMBING director, producer and actor.
I know that when the time comes I will be able to do Right by my wife and the wishes that she wants. I know what will be said, since i have lived it and been raised in the Church. I have seen it. I do know that snide remarks will be made in spite of my sadness and grief, because in their eyes it will be TO BETTER ME. I know they are just doing what they think is best. And to them that is showing me love.
The only thing different to from a mormon funeral to any other religion one, is the setting and the tone.
I am sorry they are so brainwashed and stupid as to add grief on a heart that has suffered so much already for your wife. The funeral is about her, your daughter and your love for her more than anything. They cannot help themselves they have been hit with a stupid stick.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 21 March 2016 06:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Jon Marshall:
My friend at work asked me this question yesterday and was shocked that i was OK with my wife having an LDS Funeral if and when she passes from her health issues.
To me its just an ordinary funeral excpet that it will be held at a Church. Our ward bishop will speak and maybe a few others. I am sure they will do the normal LDS eternal family thing and over dramatize most of it. I told him that to me its just the same as having a Funeral in a Catholic church or any other God centered Church.
I am not going to let my beliefs overtake what she wants.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
This.
But since we know that funerals and memorials and such are more for the living, I would second Brad's suggestion to add something else that will help you honor and remember your loved one in a way that is meaningful and comfortable to you.
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Posted: 21 March 2016 07:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Jon Marshall:
My friend at work asked me this question yesterday and was shocked that i was OK with my wife having an LDS Funeral if and when she passes from her health issues.
To me its just an ordinary funeral excpet that it will be held at a Church. Our ward bishop will speak and maybe a few others. I am sure they will do the normal LDS eternal family thing and over dramatize most of it. I told him that to me its just the same as having a Funeral in a Catholic church or any other God centered Church.
I am not going to let my beliefs overtake what she wants.
What do you think? Would you still do an LDS funeral for your loved one or not?
Jon, I like your attitude about allowing the kind of funeral she would want. I'll be facing this with my father too. An uber mormon. So we'll do the whole gruesome mormon thing, and we'll get through it.
But I'm thinking of doing a separate ceremony to honor his life in a way that's meaningful to me. There might be a few supportive people invited, or it might just be me, at the graveside or somewhere up in the mountains.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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Posted: 15 March 2016 11:19 AM [ Ignore ]
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This past week i have had some great conversations with people at work who have read my letter to the editor and wish they were that confident to be vocal against the Church. Now these are TBM's and always talk about Church through different conversations. But i guess my letter hit a nerve with some of them when i said "would you let the Church dictate if you could have Chemo" or any other medical / health procedure.
I asked them why are they afraid to speak up and voice how they feel and its what we always talk about on here. FEAR. They fear everything in their lives will come crashing down. I said the Church has always stated that its ok to question, research, learn and study on your own and ask questions. They just felt they could never go against what has been taught and the years of what they have heard over their lives in Church.
I am so glad that i am no longer apart of it. I am so glad that i never ever got into the habit of following blindly and let it be engrained in me to just submit.
We are all so lucky.
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Posted: 15 March 2016 11:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Jon Marshall:
This past week i have had some great conversations with people at work who have read my letter to the editor and wish they were that confident to be vocal against the Church. Now these are TBM's and always talk about Church through different conversations. But i guess my letter hit a nerve with some of them when i said "would you let the Church dictate if you could have Chemo" or any other medical / health procedure.
I asked them why are they afraid to speak up and voice how they feel and its what we always talk about on here. FEAR. They fear everything in their lives will come crashing down. I said the Church has always stated that its ok to question, research, learn and study on your own and ask questions. They just felt they could never go against what has been taught and the years of what they have heard over their lives in Church.
I am so glad that i am no longer apart of it. I am so glad that i never ever got into the habit of following blindly and let it be engrained in me to just submit.
We are all so lucky.
This was true up until about 1970 when correlation took over. I made a mildly controversial comment about the whole gay marriage = apostasy thing a few months back, and I was rebuked by someone saying "Caution is always necessary when one starts criticizing the church's actions." I wasn't even criticizing, I just made some carefully-worded comments. But the mindset of the TBM today is not the mindset of the TBM of 50 or 100 years ago. In the early days of the church, opposing votes were expected when someone's name was presented for a sustaining vote, and much of the meeting could be spent hearing the differing viewpoints. Now, they just meekly bow their heads and say yes, and any opposition is tantamount to an overt act of apostasy. An early church leader (might have been Brigham, not sure) said that the church didn't want a bunch of sheep to follow blindly. How things have changed!
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Posted: 15 March 2016 12:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Jon Marshall
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MU - From what you said it was more of people opposing in Raising their hands in sacrament meeting to sustain a calling or release.
I was talking to them about opposing and speaking out against the Church away from the confines of the swarm sheep that are as you said and I agree with are constantly blindly following and lowering their heads in cowerdace.
Even having the ability to Free Speech is scary for them because they have to be worried about who it will offend, how it will affect their Church standing, how it will affect their families, jobs, and in the end their eternal salvation.
It is liberating for me to stand on the sidelines and talk about the Church since i have lived it and try to help people understand that the Church is not always the Right way in this world.
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Posted: 15 March 2016 04:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I think a little counsel from past church leaders in the form of quotes would provide guidance for those afraid to speak up, well, depending which past leader you quote.
"Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences...we must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it." Apostle Hugh B. Brown
"I admire men and women who have developed the questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent- if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression." Apostle Hugh B. Brown
"There are altogether too many people in the world who are willing to accept as true whatever is printed in a book or delivered from a pulpit." Apostle Hugh B. Brown
Or this one from Apostle Heber C. Kimball
"But if you are told by your leaders to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong."
I prefer Hugh B. Browns counsel but I guess it is up to each individual to choose which counsel is best for them.
Posted: 15 March 2016 06:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Jon Marshall
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Felix:
I think a little counsel from past church leaders in the form of quotes would provide guidance for those afraid to speak up, well, depending which past leader you quote.
"Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences...we must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it." Apostle Hugh B. Brown
"I admire men and women who have developed the questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent- if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression." Apostle Hugh B. Brown
"There are altogether too many people in the world who are willing to accept as true whatever is printed in a book or delivered from a pulpit." Apostle Hugh B. Brown
Or this one from Apostle Heber C. Kimball
"But if you are told by your leaders to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong."
I prefer Hugh B. Browns counsel but I guess it is up to each individual to choose which counsel is best for them.
Hugh B. Browns is great. I think most of the recent and present Apostles and Top 12 go by what Heber C. Kimball said and they pass that down thru the lines.
My brother called me tonight and told me that some of his friends have called him and asked if the Jon Marshall that wrote the letter to the Paper was his brother and he said Yes, and they said, they wished they had the guts to say what i feel against the Church and that people have gotten ex'd and disfellowshiped for a lot less , and he said He is not worried about that, he doesn't fear anything about the Church anymore.
I did not ask if they asked anymore deeper questions about what he meant about my no longer fearing them, but i hope that planted a little seed.
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Posted: 16 March 2016 04:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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"Follow the prophet, don't go astray. Follow the prophet, he knows the way!" My children sing this about every Sunday, while the teens and adults are being warned that any negative thought toward the profit is from the devil. No evil speaking of the Lord's Anointed. This has turned into a level of veneration that puts the 'brethren' above reproach. Your bishop stands up and says things like, "if the profit said to wear turbans, I'd be the first in line." I don't care one way or the other about turbans, but I do about blind faith and following another human as if they're 100% perfect.
The few who have dared speak in opposition, whether by dissenting vote in conference or by speaking up about medical marijuana / women's rights / LGBT rights / black rights, do so knowing that they are putting their membership, relationships, social standing, and sometimes their career on the line:
Jon Marshall:
They fear everything in their lives will come crashing down.
But it's not a cult...
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Accidentally came out on purpose :)
Posted: 24 March 2016 04:47 PM [ Ignore ]
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LostInParadise
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A couple weeks ago, I asked for advice on sending a coming out letter to my family. This won't be terribly exciting, but after deciding not to send the letter, I got really peeved about all the friggin' Facebook posts by DW and other TBM family members about things like staying in the boat, doubting your doubts, following the profit, etc.--especially since I've felt like I can't share anything after DW blew up over things I thought were fairly innocuous.
So, I posted this article about a couple who left the church together, for all my FB friends to see. This led to friends asking if I've left the church, etc. I didn't really think about the fact that this would happen, but I subconciously knew that it would. I didn't outright say that I don't believe, but I responded that I'm in a "faith crisis" and that there are definitely some issues with the church. I referenced the CES letter and Tom Phillips.
So far, here's the fallout:
- DW thinks I'm an fool (nothing new there) and said "our story will NOT be ending like that."
- Radio silence from most friends and family (including many who have talked to DW about me behind my back).
- Not a word from in-laws.
- Apostate sisters are doing backflips.
- One TBM brother hasn't said a word. This may be because I asked my parents for space in the beginning. Or because he's non-confrontational.
- Other TBM brother has expressed acceptance and respectful disagreement. Explained some of his views and listened to some of mine but doesn't seem to want to hear much. Will let me live my life, though!
- A couple of friends have acted the same, and have engaged me in doctrinal discussions. Once I start presenting uncomfortable facts, they stop responding. Every time. But they have been fairly accepting, which is cool.
- Several friends have messaged or texted me to let me know the CES letter was created to deceive and confuse us and is inspired by satan. Right. Most haven't read it or have only read parts. But somehow they know it's from satan.
- Some extremely TBM friends have tried to engage me to convert me back and I've just avoided it completely, seeing no possible good ending to those conversations.
- This is the worst part: parents are hurt that I asked for space and then went public. I feel bad about not talking to them first (don't make this mistake, folks!), and apologized (too little, too late -- it's going to be a sore spot for a long while). I've been reminded by parents and DW that I promised to be a worthy priesthood-holding husband/father for eternity, so I'm letting everyone down if I don't keep that promise. No way to explain that I made those promises under false pretenses and am therefore under no obligation.
- Found a couple unexpected allies, which makes me wonder where they stand regarding the church.
Overall, it went way better than expected, so I'm pleased about that, and overall don't regret the "soft opening". I plan to continue to post more "authentic me" stuff after the dust settles a little, and I'm sure that will lead to some more uncomfortable situations.
I have a desire to post medium-level things that wouldn't immediately label me as apostate, but would raise red flags about the morg to free thinkers, like gay rights, mormon feminism, history tidbits from church sources, membership stats, etc. I feel like, perhaps, the longer I can get away with that without excommunication, the more I can help others find out the truth about the church they're subsidizing. And eventually, I can go out in a Jeremy Runnells / John Dehlin / Bruce Holt style blaze of glory, with as much attention to it as possible.
Am I onto something, or did I have too much to drink?
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Posted: 24 March 2016 05:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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You did a lot better at it than I did. I slowly stopped going to church at 16 and eventually got the call from all the older TBM brothers on the same day about it. Andy told me he was quietly dissapointed and that I was going to hell. Mark actually yelled when I didn't immeidately side with him and screamed in my ear that I was going to hell. Those two brothers are the ones I was never able to repair the relationship with.
The reactions sound in line with responses I've seen in TBM family. You managed it really well. Good luck in your future encounters with them.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 06:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I experienced the same thing with some of my Facebook posts and subsequent blog posts. I lost friends, irked the in-laws ( no big loss to me ), had some friends ask for help in their dilemas and got the acceptance from my wife, who has told me like yours that she will not be leaving. She has her concerns, but a lot of her staying is her family and ultimate guilt of what will happen if she did.
I am off Facebook now. I just decided that if they were true friends and wanted to stay in my life they would stay in touch by email and read my blog. My blog is not centered yet on any one subject. I am trying to decide what it should be or how much i should delve into certain subjects. So right now its a mix of leaving the Church posts and just personal opinions. I hope to center it soon.
Keep living how you feel and sharing what you feel. If it offends others, thats on them. Not you.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 06:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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PhoenixGate:
You did a lot better at it than I did. I slowly stopped going to church at 16 and eventually got the call from all the older TBM brothers on the same day about it. Andy told me he was quietly dissapointed and that I was going to hell. Mark actually yelled when I didn't immeidately side with him and screamed in my ear that I was going to hell. Those two brothers are the ones I was never able to repair the relationship with.
The reactions sound in line with responses I've seen in TBM family. You managed it really well. Good luck in your future encounters with them.
My brother wrote me a letter telling me I was going to hell too. Then he asked how I could do that to our parents. (Attempted guilt trip.) Then he went about setting himself up as the faithful son, with me as the prodigal daughter... making a point to contact all of our relatives to tell them I had left the church. I didn't have to tell anyone. He thought he had really cooked my goose. But I didn't care. I think that made him mad.
Posted: 25 March 2016 04:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Dear LOST -- thanks for the story. I've just finished posting it on my FB page. A while back I wrote a piece about a REVOLUTION in 2015(back when I was still really pissed off). I keep waiting for someone else to throw the HORSESHIT in the fan and I decided that I need to "suck it up buttercup" and grow some and do it. I'm tired of all the FB crap about the morg -- those morgbots are acting like they're sitting around a campfire making smores and singing -- give said the little stream/popcorn popping on the apricot tree. Some of the people on my FB page I have known for 40 years and we did a lot of morgbot things together. But I'm tired of the status quo, so I finally did something. This, is but the beginning! My eyes have been opened -- I know the truth and it has set me free -- and how do I feel about that -- PRICELESS!
Posted: 25 March 2016 05:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Have I told all of you that you are my heroes! Some of you because you decided that you needed to be authentic if to no one else but yourselfdespite the potential fallout). Some of you who are still hanging in the morg because the fallout would be too devastating at this time -- that takes courage and I truly respect that. But many of you have helped me along the road to recovery and healing and that has meant A LOT! Merci beaucoup!
Posted: 25 March 2016 08:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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maynardg:
Dear LOST -- thanks for the story. I've just finished posting it on my FB page. A while back I wrote a piece about a REVOLUTION in 2015(back when I was still really pissed off). I keep waiting for someone else to throw the HORSESHIT in the fan and I decided that I need to "suck it up buttercup" and grow some and do it. I'm tired of all the FB crap about the morg -- those morgbots are acting like they're sitting around a campfire making smores and singing -- give said the little stream/popcorn popping on the apricot tree. Some of the people on my FB page I have known for 40 years and we did a lot of morgbot things together. But I'm tired of the status quo, so I finally did something. This, is but the beginning! My eyes have been opened -- I know the truth and it has set me free -- and how do I feel about that -- PRICELESS!
Have I told all of you that you are my heroes! Some of you because you decided that you needed to be authentic if to no one else but yourselfdespite the potential fallout). Some of you who are still hanging in the morg because the fallout would be too devastating at this time -- that takes courage and I truly respect that. But many of you have helped me along the road to recovery and healing and that has meant A LOT! Merci beaucoup!
[You'll have to infer the highlighting. Phone's being goofy today.]
This is awesome. Best of luck! Let us know how it goes! So far I've only had one "friend" be such a prick that I had to unfriend him. It actually felt good to remove him from my life. :D
I'm going to find and read your revolution post.
I can only chalk this up to synergy, because I consider you and the others posting here in our apostate little community as MY heroes. I came here 3 months ago looking for strength and comfort, and reading the threads here has given me that and helped me keep my sanity through the fear, anger, arguments, gaslighting, etc.
What a bunch of awesome people we are! ;)
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Posted: 27 March 2016 11:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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PhoenixGate:
You did a lot better at it than I did. I slowly stopped going to church at 16 and eventually got the call from all the older TBM brothers on the same day about it. Andy told me he was quietly dissapointed and that I was going to hell. Mark actually yelled when I didn't immeidately side with him and screamed in my ear that I was going to hell. Those two brothers are the ones I was never able to repair the relationship with.
The reactions sound in line with responses I've seen in TBM family. You managed it really well. Good luck in your future encounters with them.
When I get this type of reaction nowadays, I just calmly tell the screamer that if the pursuit of their religion leads them to yell, scream and freak out, then they're probably doing it wrong.
Shuts 'em up real good.
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Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
Posted: 26 March 2016 12:56 PM [ Ignore ]
specialkay
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What emotions swirled for me when I read about the missionaries who were seriously injured in the terrorist attack in Brussels. How horrible that that happened to them, and how hard for their families to learn such difficult news while far away. I was treated terribly by church leadership on my mission, and I can't imagine having to go through a life tragedy while on my mission.
The news is even a bit harder, though, when it feels like the church is potentially using these grievously injured young people for a publicity campaign.
Did anyone else find it jarring to see an interview with one of the missionaries from his hospital bed. Some news station (CNN? I don't remember -- I was at the gym) filmed the first time his parents saw him after flying in. Then they interviewed this poor young man, severely burned and covered in bandages and obviously in pain. He had a heart-breakingly good attitude about the whole thing, saying he felt lucky to have come out alive, other people had it worse, etc.
Perhaps this man did, of his own volition, really want to talk to the media in that state. If he did, more power to him. But it is hard not to read LDS missionary opportunism into his story (and that of a sister missionary interviewed from her hospital bed, also seriously injured). From my work in media and from time spent in the hospital, I can assure you that CNN isn't allowed to troll the halls of a hospital looking for people to chat with. Someone set that interview up. Did he really want the international media to film him being reunited for the first time with his parents? Did he really want to be on TV all over the world with his face covered like a mummy? We'll never know.
In this CNN story, two of the three people profiled are Mormon missionaries; there are videos with them, but the third (non-missionary) person chose not to appear in a video or picture:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/25/europe/brussels-terror-attack-survivors/
And the other heart-breaking thing? Missionaries have horribly inadequate health insurance, and these poor missionaries are going to have a long and expensive path back to health that they might have to pay for themselves. Not sure if European missionaries might get better treatment to keep in line with EU laws, but in the US ten years ago, you couldn't get "mission health" to pay for about anything. Honestly, I wonder if part of the publicity around these is to help fuel gofundme-type campaigns to cover the health costs that the church is going to refuse to cover. (I can just imagine my mission president's wife saying, "I'm sorry. Injuries springing from terrorist attacks are excluded from our health plan. I'll call your parents to ask if they'll pay.")
I really want this post to have compassion for those poor missionaries. Just want to close by saying my criticism is for the church, and not these missionaries. I do genuinely wish them the best.
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Posted: 26 March 2016 04:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
NOMOREMO
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Time for the missionary program to end. These poor young adults are sitting ducks in many part of the world and I would think most of the worlds population doesn't want to talk to them.
Of course, LDS Inc. is going to milk this young man and his family for all they can. So sad.
Posted: 26 March 2016 08:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Winyan
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I had a similar thought when I saw how much coverage those missionaries are getting. Much more than any other of the victims. And not just in Utah. There has to be something else going on. It does sound like the morg PR machine at work.
Posted: 27 March 2016 06:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I bear my testimony to all tbms, that this is statistical in nature. The law of averages says that the number of its missionaries that go through airports will inevitably place them in harms way. It is unfortuanate, but the law of averages also states that as long as terrorist acts like this exist, at some point Mormon missionaries will be killed.
When this happens the dialog will change---Now it is a miracle---god protecting his servants; then it will be god requiring the blood of the missionaries to stand as a witness against the perpetradors---yada, yada, yada...
Media is an interesting animal. I don't think the Church's PR machine is powerful enough to make a story like this take traction with the national media. So what is it about this story that interests the national media? Is it the fact that the majority injured Americans were Mormon (source)? Is it the fact that religious radaicals of Islam were unable to hurt American Christian Missionaries, implying "our god is better than your god---nonie nonie na na? Who the Hell knows---What I know is that the Church will use this in its dogma and propoganda to further its agenda---to do anything less would not be in characture of a man made church.
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Jesus Gave Us The Gospel. Satan Invented Church—Says Kirby
Posted: 20 March 2016 07:44 PM [ Ignore ]
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Funny!
http://www.sltrib.com/news/3682798-155/kirby-who-came-up-with-3-hour
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 22 March 2016 04:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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WinstonSmith
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My favorite quote:
"It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious, and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically."
I propose that the Oxford Dictonary use this as its definition for "Mormonism"
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Posted: 22 March 2016 08:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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May I refer you to my revised 6th article of faith:
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely, Visiting Teaching co-ordinators, second counsellors in the Sunday School presidency, 16 year old priests, cub scout leaders, chapel booking agents and so forth. (I should further revise it to include meetings. So many meetings!)
God did not invent that. And that's only one of the big problems with the institutional church. Callings, meetings, meetings, callings.... Busy busy busy, all the time!
Only 3 hours a week? Man, when I was in a bishopric it was 10 hours on a slow week, often much, much more.
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Posted: 22 March 2016 02:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Was watching Lucifer this last Monday night....(my form of family home evening) and when he was yelling at god....felt the same way.
The church feeds into that game play...making humans run around doing nothing useful....and becoming exhausted doing so.
It's all been a crock.
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Stating Opinion vs Teaching
Posted: 26 March 2016 11:44 AM [ Ignore ]
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After reading BH's post on what his Stake President said about his Opinion/Post is considered Teaching, i tried looking up "Is stating your opinion considered teaching?", and I did not find one site that considered it teaching. Most of them were sites about teaching others to write opinions and ideas and how to do it that, they were mostly sites about teaching English to no english speakers.
So to me, i do not think what BH wrote is teaching. Its an opinion. Its what he sees. He is not out their asking for others to take what he says as Fact, he asked them to study on their own and to research and see. I have done that on my blogs and when i was on Facebook. So I guess i would be in the same boat as him within the Church and what they consider teaching.
Whenever someone wants to discuss with me my views, i tell them, first do you want to know and second if you have questions or doubts, go research yourself, talk to your leaders. I will never lead someone away from their own spirituality.
I have read many of your posts and I would never have taken them as Teaching. You are stating facts, and experiences that have happened to you.
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Posted: 26 March 2016 03:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Jon Marshall:
After reading BH's post on what his Stake President said about his Opinion/Post is considered Teaching, i tried looking up "Is stating your opinion considered teaching?", and I did not find one site that considered it teaching. Most of them were sites about teaching others to write opinions and ideas and how to do it that, they were mostly sites about teaching English to no english speakers.
So to me, i do not think what BH wrote is teaching. Its an opinion. Its what he sees. He is not out their asking for others to take what he says as Fact, he asked them to study on their own and to research and see. I have done that on my blogs and when i was on Facebook. So I guess i would be in the same boat as him within the Church and what they consider teaching.
Whenever someone wants to discuss with me my views, i tell them, first do you want to know and second if you have questions or doubts, go research yourself, talk to your leaders. I will never lead someone away from their own spirituality.
I have read many of your posts and I would never have taken them as Teaching. You are stating facts, and experiences that have happened to you.
You'll get no argument from me!
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Posted: 26 March 2016 04:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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When I first joined postmormon.org, I chose my screen name because I saw in my situation with the church, Orwell's "1984". It is a big powerful metaphor in my mind. As of late I also see a big metaphor in Orwell's "Animal Farm", maybe more powerful than "1984".
It is all hypocricy within the Church. My guess is that BH's SP pledges allegiance to the American Flag, believes in the "White Horse Prophecy", speaks highy of the US Constitution; yet if what BH's SP is doing was outside the context of the church and in the context of American society, his action would be boarder line, if not treasonist. His actions defiles "freedom of speach, freedom of expression, and freedom of due process. Simply put, in a different context the SP is an enemy to the declared human rights found in the US Constitution.
Yes, some will argue that the Mormon Church has the right to kick BH out of the Church, because he expressed an opinion that JS was a fraud; In the past 7 years I have heard countless Mormons call Pres Obama a fraud---Should they be kicked out of the United States, and citizenship striped? Of course not! How is this any different than BH?
My take away from BH's account of his SP is disconcerting. If this SP was at MM on 9/11 - 1857, I have no doubt that he would have had no problem, and been very capable of shooting point blank women and children in the name of his "covenants".
Disclaimer: Since I am currently a member on record of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, any person wanting to out me, please be advised that the above is to be viewd as stated opinion and not as "teaching".
JM---as for teaching verses stated opinion: 1. The Ministry of Truth is trying to deposit the rational definitions down the "Memory Hole"; 2. The sheep that cannot read, are unaware that the rules written on the side of the barn have been changed.
IMO---it is not about stated opinion verses teaching---it is about controlling the narrative, supressing truth, and oppressing people for personal or perceived gain. This SP believes he stands to gain eternal wealth (perceived gain) by carying out his duty, just as the High Priests did at MMM as they murdered innocent women and children.
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Posted: 26 March 2016 05:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Bruce A Holt
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WinstonSmith:
When I first joined postmormon.org, I chose my screen name because I saw in my situation with the church, Orwell's "1984". It is a big powerful metaphor in my mind. As of late I also see a big metaphor in Orwell's "Animal Farm", maybe more powerful than "1984".
It is all hypocricy within the Church. My guess is that BH's SP pledges allegiance to the American Flag, believes in the "White Horse Prophecy", speaks highy of the US Constitution; yet if what BH's SP is doing was outside the context of the church and in the context of American society, his action would be boarder line, if not treasonist. His actions defiles "freedom of speach, freedom of expression, and freedom of due process. Simply put, in a different context the SP is an enemy to the declared human rights found in the US Constitution.
Yes, some will argue that the Mormon Church has the right to kick BH out of the Church, because he expressed an opinion that JS was a fraud; In the past 7 years I have heard countless Mormons call Pres Obama a fraud---Should they be kicked out of the United States, and citizenship striped? Of course not! How is this any different than BH?
My take away from BH's account of his SP is disconcerting. If this SP was at MM on 9/11 - 1857, I have no doubt that he would have had no problem, and been very capable of shooting point blank women and children in the name of his "covenants".
Disclaimer: Since I am currently a member on record of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, any person wanting to out me, please be advised that the above is to be viewd as stated opinion and not as "teaching".
JM---as for teaching verses stated opinion: 1. The Ministry of Truth is trying to deposit the rational definitions down the "Memory Hole"; 2. The sheep that cannot read, are unaware that the rules written on the side of the barn have been changed.
IMO---it is not about stated opinion verses teaching---it is about controlling the narrative, supressing truth, and oppressing people for personal or perceived gain. This SP believes he stands to gain eternal wealth (perceived gain) by carying out his duty, just as the High Priests did at MMM as they murdered innocent women and children.
I can't argue with any of that, either.
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Posted: 26 March 2016 05:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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WinstonSmith:
When I first joined postmormon.org, I chose my screen name because I saw in my situation with the church, Orwell's "1984". It is a big powerful metaphor in my mind. As of late I also see a big metaphor in Orwell's "Animal Farm", maybe more powerful than "1984".
It is all hypocricy within the Church. My guess is that BH's SP pledges allegiance to the American Flag, believes in the "White Horse Prophecy", speaks highy of the US Constitution; yet if what BH's SP is doing was outside the context of the church and in the context of American society, his action would be boarder line, if not treasonist. His actions defiles "freedom of speach, freedom of expression, and freedom of due process. Simply put, in a different context the SP is an enemy to the declared human rights found in the US Constitution.
Yes, some will argue that the Mormon Church has the right to kick BH out of the Church, because he expressed an opinion that JS was a fraud; In the past 7 years I have heard countless Mormons call Pres Obama a fraud---Should they be kicked out of the United States, and citizenship striped? Of course not! How is this any different than BH?
My take away from BH's account of his SP is disconcerting. If this SP was at MM on 9/11 - 1857, I have no doubt that he would have had no problem, and been very capable of shooting point blank women and children in the name of his "covenants".
Disclaimer: Since I am currently a member on record of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, any person wanting to out me, please be advised that the above is to be viewd as stated opinion and not as "teaching".
JM---as for teaching verses stated opinion: 1. The Ministry of Truth is trying to deposit the rational definitions down the "Memory Hole"; 2. The sheep that cannot read, are unaware that the rules written on the side of the barn have been changed.
IMO---it is not about stated opinion verses teaching---it is about controlling the narrative, supressing truth, and oppressing people for personal or perceived gain. This SP believes he stands to gain eternal wealth (perceived gain) by carying out his duty, just as the High Priests did at MMM as they murdered innocent women and children.
Very well stated WinstonSmith. I chose red to highlight this section of your comments. Red obviously because of the blood oath and the real and factual proven blood spilt by so called latter day saints, who teach thou shalt not kill. This was the hair raising realization I had when the attorney acting as a stake president was bullying the congregations that I was rubbing shoulders with. The bishop I was executive secretary to would not take a stand on this control and manipulation that was being oppressed upon decent people. I understood how good people can/did/and will commit horrendous deeds in the name of loyalty devotion and commitment as they fear throat slitting promises they made in an earthly building called a temple. The stonewalling the bishop and others gave me in response to my visit in the official oracle office for revelation was clear. Underlings will ignore the do what is right let the consequence mantra in order to follow in 'Duty" and "Obedience". Yes I solemnly sustain this comment in truth and my experiencial testimony to be the case with TBM idiots.
As a follow up on this I add that I rented out my house and left the city for a couple years. I did return to attend a particular stake conference when this narcissist was replaced by some other well educated "enabler". At the end of this meeting the now a judge control freak was given time to make a few words in his release. This is what I came to hear. I have to give this dude some credit in that he was somewhat honest as he stated that his biggest challenge is in actually loving people. No duh!
At this point I have to thank him for being a true historical mormon as he was all about being willing to slaughter the unfaithful saints just to have an old testament style dedicated following. A seminary teacher on the ces payoll intimated this part in a bishopric meeting back in the day. I am paraphrasing that here and now.
There was no Love. It was all beauracracy and corporate letter of the law religion. It opened up my eyes to look into the lieing for the lord in the reed smoot hearings. It still pisses me off to know about mountain meadows and so many other disgusting ways that make me wonder why in the hell any sane person would STAYlds. What the lds church did was a repeat of those instances in history. Blind followers perpetrating ignoble deeds upon innocent human beings.
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hacking lds inc
Posted: 23 March 2016 02:00 PM [ Ignore ]
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LostInParadise
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DISCLAIMER: I am in no way encouraging any illegal behavior. That said,...
Has anyone ever thought of hacking the morg's financials and sharing them with the world? At a minimum, the ward- and stake-level data goes over the Internet.
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Once mormon, twice shy.
Posted: 23 March 2016 06:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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LostInParadise:
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way encouraging any illegal behavior. That said,...
Has anyone ever thought of hacking the morg's financials and sharing them with the world? At a minimum, the ward- and stake-level data goes over the Internet.
I have asked on here for Anonymous to take on that task. Just don't know how often they read this site. Wish we knew how to ask them for help. They are ones who could do it. I see nothing morally wrong with it since they took our money by fraud and refuse to give it back. If anyone on here writes a book, would you please ask them in your book? Oh--I know who could ask them to help us--Bill Maher! Would someone please ask him to ask them?
Edited to Add: Anonymous is amazing! Check this out:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/anonymous-threatens-isis-again-following-181900925.1212
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 24 March 2016 03:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Anyone can make a threat SFT, but acting on it is totally different, which, from what I have observed, thus far, is not occurring, or the world/public would have heard about results occurring somewhere sometime. To the best of my knowledge, observed behaviors/occurrences, are not supporting any claims.
Its been all blow and no show so far for Anonymous.
Posted: 24 March 2016 11:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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former victim:
Anyone can make a threat SFT, but acting on it is totally different, which, from what I have observed, thus far, is not occurring, or the world/public would have heard about results occurring somewhere sometime. To the best of my knowledge, observed behaviors/occurrences, are not supporting any claims.
Its been all blow and no show so far for Anonymous.
They were able to access and publish Trump's social security record.
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/03/17/trumps-social-security-phone-numbers-released-by-anonymous-h/21329514/
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 27 March 2016 10:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Free2Live
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This is what comes up when I tried to check out 'mormon expression'
Website Unavailable
SORRY! THE MORMON EXPRESSION SITE WAS HACKED BY MALICIOUS FOLKS. I AM WORKING TO GET IT FIXED. THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE.
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Posted: 27 March 2016 12:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Elder OldDog
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I have no idea how I came to have this opinion:
I betcha that the computers on which the final 'bookkeeping' is done are not hooked up to the internet.
See, it makes sense to me that each financial unit of the church has access to the internet so that those in the unit can communicate, including supplying figures up and back, as needed. l
So if I were the church, and scared to death of the totals becoming public, I'd have each unit overnight, via thumb drive, their financials. And then I'd input all that data, unit by unit, into a computer NOT connected to the internet. And heavily secured...
Just makes sense to my cynical mind...
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Doubletree Suites
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Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
Posted: 27 March 2016 08:58 AM [ Ignore ]
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WinstonSmith
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I have been waiting for the family to come home from church. DW delayed leaving out of town so we could spend Easter Sunday together. My son came in and asked to borrow my car keys so he could go do Fast Offerings. DW drove my other son to do Fast Offering.
Why Fast Offerings today on Easter Sunday? Oh yes, next week is General Conference---GOD f*****g forbid that Fast Offerings are collected on Conference Sunday. Time cannot be risked that is used to worship those 15 Men is SLC. So let's collect money, that may or may not be used for the poor (see tithing slip disclaimer), on the day that the Christian world worships Jesus.
This just rubs me the wrong way.
end rant
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 27 March 2016 09:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Oh great. I wonder if my sons will come home with fast offerings, unbelievable.
Very good observation Winston Smith.
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Posted: 27 March 2016 10:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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One of the elders on my mission said that mormons don't celebrate easter. That's so true. They give it lip service at best. They'll acknowledge easter during their meeting, but only after they've sustained Sister Fitzpatrick as the new secretary in the primary presidency. They'll sing "He is Risen" and maybe "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" (if the organist is talented enough - that tune is a bitch to play!), but the talks will be about tithing or the BoM. I've only seen a couple of times in 50 years where they actually devoted the entire sacrament service to easter, but even then, there's always the ward business to attend to first.
Stupid freakin' cult.
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Posted: 27 March 2016 05:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
One of the elders on my mission said that mormons don't celebrate easter. That's so true. They give it lip service at best. They'll acknowledge easter during their meeting, but only after they've sustained Sister Fitzpatrick as the new secretary in the primary presidency. They'll sing "He is Risen" and maybe "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" (if the organist is talented enough - that tune is a bitch to play!), but the talks will be about tithing or the BoM. I've only seen a couple of times in 50 years where they actually devoted the entire sacrament service to easter, but even then, there's alway the ward business to attend to first.
Stupid freakin' cult.
And liars, MU, you forgot Stupid freakin'lying cult! How they make the media sing over how they celebrate Easter. Ugh!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 27 March 2016 08:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Free2Live
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WinstonSmith:
I have been waiting for the family to come home from church. DW delayed leaving out of town so we could spend Easter Sunday together. My son came in and asked to borrow my car keys so he could go do Fast Offerings. DW drove my other son to do Fast Offering.
Why Fast Offerings today on Easter Sunday? Oh yes, next week is General Conference---GOD f*****g forbid that Fast Offerings are collected on Conference Sunday. Time cannot be risked that is used to worship those 15 Men is SLC. So let's collect money, that may or may not be used for the poor (see tithing slip disclaimer), on the day that the Christian world worships Jesus.
This just rubs me the wrong way.
end rant
Oh that is an easy question to answer. Conference weekend is that wonderful time of mormon mecca pilgrimage. Instead of loading up the vehicles and treking to an officially dedicated building mormons get to worship the pilgrimage to the refridgerator and bathroom and enjoy not dressing up nor even having to leave their houses. Collecting fast offering corrupts that special vacational weekend of rest. Easter smeaster they will OD on peeps and hard boiled eggs regardless.
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Posted: 28 March 2016 07:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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victim
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WinstonSmith:
I have been waiting for the family to come home from church. DW delayed leaving out of town so we could spend Easter Sunday together. My son came in and asked to borrow my car keys so he could go do Fast Offerings. DW drove my other son to do Fast Offering.
Why Fast Offerings today on Easter Sunday? Oh yes, next week is General Conference---GOD f*****g forbid that Fast Offerings are collected on Conference Sunday. Time cannot be risked that is used to worship those 15 Men is SLC. So let's collect money, that may or may not be used for the poor (see tithing slip disclaimer), on the day that the Christian world worships Jesus.
This just rubs me the wrong way.
end rant
I have always felt that it was inappropriate/very hypocritical to name a 19th century, low-level, sex Cult movement such as mormonism after a gentle, compassionate soul named Jesus Christ - the self-proclaimed son of God/ recognized foundational pillar of Christianity! We also know that it took the alleged profit of the restoriation of all things - jo smith jr. - three, yes, (3) tries to get the name right! One might ask - who the hell was in charge!? After hijacking Christ's name profit jo/his motley crew of like minded, low-lifes proceeded to give smith, a well documented sexual predator/career criminal who later died in a gun fight after being arrested for various/sundry crimes top billing in the smith family/associates pyramid scheme for-profit!
Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG,
delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.
Reported by G. D. Watt
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.
From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought! But it is true.
Wow, once again, an endless stream of mormon lunacy is exposed in the writings of their alleged, holy profits! Hmmm, I believe it's quite clear that brigham young, reigning profit of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time, didn't have a high opinion of Christians - did he!? And now, they have the audacity to call themselves Christians/mainstream no-less! Unbelievable! Based on their past/present, the mormon church shunning of Easter should be expected - no supprise here!
Current Status: As we know, joseph smith jr, the crown prince of ecclesiastical fraud admitted using tools of occult magic, followed by allegations of divine intervention to justify absurd, contradictary declarations, many of which have been abondoned over time while collusive, complicit operatives of our day attempt to sustain what is left of smith's earlier hogwash while inventing/ reinventing new aburdities utilizing refined, pathological lying techniques, endless money grubbing/every other manipulative vice known to man from the very beginning of time!
Oh yes Winston Smith, the new, revised tithing slips are a nice touch! They, the magic money Cult, can continue unabated building for-profit malls, developing for-profit, residential/commercial, mega, real estate projects, while investing heavily in for-profit market ventures world wide as they revel in their revered profit, seer/revelator nonsense! If you will - kinda like the very wealthy 1% - modern day Gods of lucre! Oh yes, truth seekers know exactly what so-called mormonism is all about! victim
Posted: 28 March 2016 08:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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victim:
I have always felt that it was inappropriate/very hypocritical to name a 19th century, low-level, sex Cult movement such as mormonism after a gentle, compassionate soul named Jesus Christ - the self-proclaimed son of God/ recognized foundational pillar of Christianity! We also know that it took the alleged profit of the restoriation of all things - jo smith jr. - three, yes, (3) tries to get the name right! One might ask - who the hell was in charge!? After hijacking Christ's name profit jo/his motley crew of like minded, low-lifes proceeded to give smith, a well documented sexual predator/career criminal who later died in a gun fight after being arrested for various/sundry crimes top billing in the smith family/associates pyramid scheme for-profit!
Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG,
delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.
Reported by G. D. Watt
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.
From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought! But it is true.
Wow, once again, more mormon lunacy is exposed in the writings of their alleged, holy profits! Hmmm, I believe it's quite clear that brigham young, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, didn't have a high opinion of Christians - did he!? And now, they have the audacity to call themselves Christians/mainstream no-less! Unbelievable! The mormon church shunning of Easter should be expected - no supprise here!
Current Status: As we know, joseph smith jr, the crown prince of ecclesiastical fraud admitted using tools of occult magic, followed by allegations of divine intervention to justify absurd, contradictary declarations, many of which have been abondoned over time while collusive, complicit operatives of our day attempt to sustain what is left of smith's earlier hogwash while inventing/ reinventing new aburdities utilizing refined, pathological lying techniques, endless money grubbing/every other manipulative vice known to man from the very beginning of time!
Oh yes Winston Smith, the new, revised tithing slips are a nice touch! They, the magic money Cult, can continue unabated building for-profit malls, developing for-profit, residential/ commercial real estate developements, while investing heavily in for-profit market ventures world wide as they revel in their revered profit, seer/revelator nonsense! If you will - kinda like the very wealthy 1% - modern day Gods of lucre! Oh yes, truth seekers know exactly what so-called mormonism is all about! victim
This would make for a great infograpic: The words of Bring 'em Young, that JS is the judge, jury and executioner of any and all who want to get into the celestial kingdom, versus the words found in the bible, that it is only through the name of Jesus Christ that one can gain admittance into heaven (Acts 4:12).
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Posted: 28 March 2016 09:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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I am rather fuzzy on what I know about the law of adoption. As I recall Jo the perv smith started out sealing all members to him.?! Or Breedem young started this sealing of men to him or something. Either way man worship or gatekeeping into a heaven by having to be bound to some other dude is wierd in itself as well as adds a middleman between a believer and their god.
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The Complicated Relationship With A TBM Family
Posted: 24 March 2016 12:12 PM [ Ignore ]
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Tomorrow, at 2am, will be the first year anniversary of when my mother died.
I had a complicated relationship with her. She had me when she was 42 years old. I was her sixth child. Ironically, I was the sixth child and the sixth generation to be born into the church from her side of the family. Maybe that set up everything else, since 66 and 666 have always been lucky numbers for me.
By the time I got some size on me, most of my brothers were out of the house. The oldest was 17 when I was born, and it goes 17,15, 14, 12, and 8 from there. My youngest two brothers were the people I really grew up with. Mom and dad hit my fourth brother from the day he was born and influenced his decision to get into wrestling in highschool. Once he had enough size and skill he fought dad off and the beatings stopped. To this day he is still proud to say that he never once hit either of our parents back. They called the cops on him repeatedly and taunted him to call cps on them, all while telling them they never wanted him. The trauma was so much that he shudders anytime someone calls him by his first name and he prefers to go by his middle name, Lusty. He was given that name in honor of our great grandparents, who had no sons and so the surname of that branch of the family was lost.
I can't remember when mom started in on me, but I remember arguing with her about taking a bath and her hitting me for it. It wasn't the diciplinary spanking either, she was hitting me with the intent of releasing her frustration, not teaching me a lesson. She kept it up until Lusty told her to stop. After that she would come in wherever I was and start screaming at me, top volume, about anything she could come up with an excuse for. One of my few crystal clear memories of that time (90% of my childhood is fuzzy) is myself at sixteen, standing up from the chair, realizing that I was taller than mom was, and telling her in a shaking voice that she could no longer do this to me.
I was angry with both her and dad for a long, long time. When our oldest brother went to college he trusted his scholarship to them while he went on his mission. They spent every dime by the time he came back. When I was about 16 or 17 Lusty (who was staying with my parents to make sure I got out of high school and to try and teach me enough logic to get me to leave the church) fell on the stairs going down to the utility room and split his head open. He tried to get our parents to call an ambulance multiple times, which they refused. Dad actively blocked me from investigating while mom cleaned up the pool of blood. When confronted about it later, they both denied anything ever happened.
Lusty lost most of his memory for a week, having to use his college ID card to discover his own identity. The injury caused him to start having one or two migraine's a weekand it took a full five years for him to get back all of his memory.
It took me years to sort out my feelings, and forever will my anger with my parents be tied in with my anger with the church. The worst part of all of it is that I still love them. There were a lot of good memories among all the abuse, and I know they genuinely loved me back.
I never really got to know my mother as an adult. By the time I started calling them regularly she was constantly passing off the phone to dad, refusing to talk to me about anything serious and never for long. Her mother died before I was born, and her father died six or seven year back. After that, she started repeating the same line to me every time I called, about how it was snowing when they drove to Utah for her father's funeral. I think she struggled with manic depression, bipolar disorder and a number of other issues her entire life. I think she would have done better had she had the chance to live closer to her family.
So all in all, it was a complicated relationship. It hurts that she's gone. No matter what she did, she was still my mother and now she's gone forever. I'll never have the chance to really get to know her, and she'll never meet the children I want to have some day. For a long time after I left the church and moved, she kept insisting that I could still get married in the temple some day, even though I told her it was never going to happen. I realize now that we never really discussed me leaving the church. I guess I knew she'd just change the subject like she usually did.
I got my love of reading from her and she shop me to be a sharp thrift shopper. I'm constantly comparing prices and telling my brother we can get a certain item for three dollars less at the other store. It feels strange to hold all the good things and the bad things I got from my mom together and cry. It feels like I shouldn't. It feels like I should never stop.
Lusty and I are going down to the beach tomorrow at sunset to release some floating lanterns in honor of her memory and I'm lighting a candle tonight.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 01:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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PhoenixGate:
Tomorrow, at 2am, will be the first year anniversary of when my mother died.
....
I had a complicated relationship with her.
....
I got my love of reading from her and she shop me to be a sharp thrift shopper. I'm constantly comparing prices and telling my brother we can get a certain item for three dollars less at the other store. It feels strange to hold all the good things and the bad things I got from my mom together and cry. It feels like I shouldn't. It feels like I should never stop.
Lusty and I are going down to the beach tomorrow at sunset to release some floating lanterns in honor of her memory and I'm lighting a candle tonight.
PhoenixGate you have a big heart. The world is a better place with you in it. Family relationships are a mixed bag of love and denial. Religious poison fear guilt and other unhealthy ingredients sure make life a challenge. May your good energy along with your brothers' combine into more healing on this occasion. Discovering truth through fact hurts often as much as it helps. I was told that pain is a bonding agent. I believe love is the connective force of the universe. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
My father is losing ground health-wise now and family has been gathering and visiting while he is still in good enough condition for happy final memories. An ongoing conversation with one of my brothers, who was a bishop, includes the topic of mothers' passive aggression. It is warm and enlightening when we agree on this conversation. The best part is in hearing similar recognition and removal of that control and manipulation tendency from our own lives. The lds cult taught most members to be passive aggressive. I am glad that life gets better with time. We can get past the pain as we find peace and calm in love.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 04:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Winyan
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Hi PhoenixGate... I'm so sorry you and your brother went thru all of that. You must be extraordinary people to come out of it as strong as you are.
People who love someone don't do those kinds of things to them. That isn't love. It was their dysfunction. I hope you remember that as you work thru the grieving process, to keep that perspective so you can recognize real love when you experience it.
I'm sending you good thoughts for healing and a very happy life.
Posted: 24 March 2016 04:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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LostInParadise
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Winyan:
Hi PhoenixGate... I'm so sorry you and your brother went thru all of that. You must be extraordinary people to come out of it as strong as you are.
People who love someone don't do those kinds of things to them. That isn't love. It was their dysfunction. I hope you remember that as you work thru the grieving process, to keep that perspective so you can recognize real love when you experience it.
I'm sending you good thoughts for healing and a very happy life.
I just finished listening to Dehlin's interview of Alex Cooper (great and touching podcast, seriously want her book now). One of the surprising things she said was that she loves her parents and knows they love her. Granted, their abuse gets nowhere near what PG experienced. But flawed (even extremely flawed) people can do some screwy, hurtful stuff and still also love and show love through other things they do. In some ways it can maybe be more damaging because it's so confusing to the victim and makes it harder for them to extricate themselves from the abuse. But IMVHO, it's a good thing that PG can recognize the positive things from growing up and cherish those memories separately from the crazy painful things. I imagine parents with mental illness would be constantly switching between abusive and loving behaviors, as their flaws are alternately manifested or suppressed. Just my 0.02.
Ditto on admiration for PG and Lusty for surviving and playing so well the cards you were dealt.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 05:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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PhoenixGate
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LostInParadise:
Winyan:
Hi PhoenixGate... I'm so sorry you and your brother went thru all of that. You must be extraordinary people to come out of it as strong as you are.
People who love someone don't do those kinds of things to them. That isn't love. It was their dysfunction. I hope you remember that as you work thru the grieving process, to keep that perspective so you can recognize real love when you experience it.
I'm sending you good thoughts for healing and a very happy life.
I just finished listening to Dehlin's interview of Alex Cooper (great and touching podcast, seriously want her book now). One of the surprising things she said was that she loves her parents and knows they love her. Granted, their abuse gets nowhere near what PG experienced. But flawed (even extremely flawed) people can do some screwy, hurtful stuff and still also love and show love through other things they do. In some ways it can maybe be more damaging because it's so confusing to the victim and makes it harder for them to extricate themselves from the abuse. But IMVHO, it's a good thing that PG can recognize the positive things from growing up and cherish those memories separately from the crazy painful things. I imagine parents with mental illness would be constantly switching between abusive and loving behaviors, as their flaws are alternately manifested or suppressed. Just my 0.02.
Ditto on admiration for PG and Lusty for surviving and playing so well the cards you were dealt.
Could you post a link to the podcast? I'd like to listen to it.
And thank you, thank you to everyone that has replied. It's been tough, and honestly Lusty is a large part of why I made it out of that situation psychologically intact. I took a psychology class in college, and I was showing all the signs of severe social anxiety in my teens. One of the first things Lusty did was take me out everywhere in his current vehicle. If he had to go to the store, I came with him, if he wanted to go buy something specific he took me along. Afterwards he would talk to me, tell me what behavior was normal on either end of my interactions. It gave me the tools I needed to function normally in everyday situations without fear.
On the parent/child relationship, I have wanted to be a biologist for a long time and have an associate's under my belt with as many science classes as I could grab. The bonding that happens between a parent and a child is built into our DNA, and I have good accounts from the family that mom took good care of me as a young infant and through my young childhood. I really do think a part of her loved me. When I turned eighteen Lusty moved and took me with him, and I spent the first five years of my early adulthood (the process started when I moved away from the church) rebuilding my mentality into something coherent. I was so stressed and messed up in the head that I was having memory blackouts, extreme mood swings, and a lot of other stuff I barely remember. I had to separate my memories and examine them to understand what had happened.
There are things that happened with the parents that I will never forgive. But the parent/child bond still remains, so I love them to an extent that I still struggle with. Mom suffered from manic depression and bipolar disorder (which went undiagnosed, Lusty's therapists suggested the diagnoses from descriptions of her behavior). Raising six children was very stessful too. Dad had trouble holding down jobs and five boys eat an unholy amount of food.
In 2013 mom was diagnosed with alzheimers, dimentia and diabetis all in the same six months. I knew she wasn't going to last much longer after that. Due to financial issues among all the siblings all dad had to take care of her was their social security income and their medical coverage. He was her sole caregiver for the last two years of her life, and I'm suspicous that he wasn't telling the full truth of her condition. He hinted that while she listened to him, she sometimes forgot who he was completely except "the nice man who helps me." Two of the brothers that were still local checked in on them regularly and helped where they could, but mom got disoriented, irrational and loud whenever she had to leave the apartment. Dad couldn't even take her to the grocery store because she started stealing little things and forgetting she had done so.
With all that being sad, I consider my love for them seprate from my anger with their actions. It upset me for a long time that I could love them after everything that happened, but I do. It's not a feeling that has gone away, so I've learned to live with it. Whatever they've done, I consider dad's last years caring for her pennance for all the shit he pulled. It's all unde the bridge and done now, and I'm left dealing with the emotional fallout within myself.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 07:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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LostInParadise
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PhoenixGate:
LostInParadise:
Winyan:
Hi PhoenixGate... I'm so sorry you and your brother went thru all of that. You must be extraordinary people to come out of it as strong as you are.
People who love someone don't do those kinds of things to them. That isn't love. It was their dysfunction. I hope you remember that as you work thru the grieving process, to keep that perspective so you can recognize real love when you experience it.
I'm sending you good thoughts for healing and a very happy life.
I just finished listening to Dehlin's interview of Alex Cooper (great and touching podcast, seriously want her book now). One of the surprising things she said was that she loves her parents and knows they love her. Granted, their abuse gets nowhere near what PG experienced. But flawed (even extremely flawed) people can do some screwy, hurtful stuff and still also love and show love through other things they do. In some ways it can maybe be more damaging because it's so confusing to the victim and makes it harder for them to extricate themselves from the abuse. But IMVHO, it's a good thing that PG can recognize the positive things from growing up and cherish those memories separately from the crazy painful things. I imagine parents with mental illness would be constantly switching between abusive and loving behaviors, as their flaws are alternately manifested or suppressed. Just my 0.02.
Ditto on admiration for PG and Lusty for surviving and playing so well the cards you were dealt.
Could you post a link to the podcast? I'd like to listen to it.
And thank you, thank you to everyone that has replied. It's been tough, and honestly Lusty is a large part of why I made it out of that situation psychologically intact. I took a psychology class in college, and I was showing all the signs of severe social anxiety in my teens. One of the first things Lusty did was take me out everywhere in his current vehicle. If he had to go to the store, I came with him, if he wanted to go buy something specific he took me along. Afterwards he would talk to me, tell me what behavior was normal on either end of my interactions. It gave me the tools I needed to function normally in everyday situations without fear.
On the parent/child relationship, I have wanted to be a biologist for a long time and have an associate's under my belt with as many science classes as I could grab. The bonding that happens between a parent and a child is built into our DNA, and I have good accounts from the family that mom took good care of me as a young infant and through my young childhood. I really do think a part of her loved me. When I turned eighteen Lusty moved and took me with him, and I spent the first five years of my early adulthood (the process started when I moved away from the church) rebuilding my mentality into something coherent. I was so stressed and messed up in the head that I was having memory blackouts, extreme mood swings, and a lot of other stuff I barely remember. I had to separate my memories and examine them to understand what had happened.
There are things that happened with the parents that I will never forgive. But the parent/child bond still remains, so I love them to an extent that I still struggle with. Mom suffered from manic depression and bipolar disorder (which went undiagnosed, Lusty's therapists suggested the diagnoses from descriptions of her behavior). Raising six children was very stessful too. Dad had trouble holding down jobs and five boys eat an unholy amount of food.
In 2013 mom was diagnosed with alzheimers, dimentia and diabetis all in the same six months. I knew she wasn't going to last much longer after that. Due to financial issues among all the siblings all dad had to take care of her was their social security income and their medical coverage. He was her sole caregiver for the last two years of her life, and I'm suspicous that he wasn't telling the full truth of her condition. He hinted that while she listened to him, she sometimes forgot who he was completely except "the nice man who helps me." Two of the brothers that were still local checked in on them regularly and helped where they could, but mom got disoriented, irrational and loud whenever she had to leave the apartment. Dad couldn't even take her to the grocery store because she started stealing little things and forgetting she had done so.
With all that being sad, I consider my love for them seprate from my anger with their actions. It upset me for a long time that I could love them after everything that happened, but I do. It's not a feeling that has gone away, so I've learned to live with it. Whatever they've done, I consider dad's last years caring for her pennance for all the shit he pulled. It's all unde the bridge and done now, and I'm left dealing with the emotional fallout within myself.
Here are the links:
Part 1 video: https://youtu.be/R8L0o9MyGUo
Part 2 video: https://youtu.be/NmMrd9K104o
Or, if you prefer audio:
Part 1 audio: http://traffic.libsyn.com/mormonstories/MormonStories-625-AlexCooperPt1.mp3
Part 2 audio: http://traffic.libsyn.com/mormonstories/MormonStories-626-AlexCooperPt2.mp3
You may have to copy and paste the links...I'm still an amateur here.
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Wrong from the Start
Posted: 23 March 2016 06:59 AM [ Ignore ]
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Denker
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Mormonism in its entirety exists on the single premise that the First Vision actually happened. Scholarly investigation overwhelmingly concludes that it did not. It should be obvious to any serious student of Mormon history that from the beginning Joseph had multiple mental issues, some of which, working together with his cunning talents, actually enabled him to mix just enough Christian truth with error to hold onto power and preserve the gullibility of his flock. It is also obvious that he died not as a martyr but as a lawbreaker of both civil and moral law.
An examination of the canonized account as currently found in the PGP gives us some insight into one of his mental issues. In his life and writings we see a pattern where he attributed to others the very tendencies he rejected in himself. In psychological terms, this is known as projection. The online Encyclopedia Britannica definition reads: "Projection, the attribution to others of one's own rejected tendencies; and reaction formation, turning into its opposite a tendency rejected in oneself".
We now turn to Joseph Smith History 1:19. "For they were all wrong" hints of a one and only true church forthcoming. "Their creeds were an abomination in his sight" is the opposite of his "gospel fullness". "Those professors were all corrupt", whereas Joseph was specially chosen for his purity and innocence. "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men". The "saving (Masonic) ordinances" were revealed to Joseph Smith directly from God.
According to Joseph's account, it was Jesus Christ who addressed him. Now I ask the question, how could any Christian with half a brain believe that our Lord Jesus Christ would say that the Protestant churches "were all wrong" and "that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" when ALL of them preached Christ crucified? How could he say their "professors were all corrupt" and "they teach for doctrines the commandments of men" when they preached from the New Testament and sought earnestly to bring souls unto him instead of trying to exalt themselves like Joseph Smith?
It's the Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators who declare it is THEY who have godliness "but they deny the power" of Christ's saving grace, for it is they who extort money and allegiance in exchange for access to THEIR "saving ordinances". This is the legacy of Joseph Smith. This is the REAL abomination.
Posted: 24 March 2016 07:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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son of perdition
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Denker:
Mormonism in its entirety exists on the single premise that the First Vision actually happened. Scholarly investigation overwhelmingly concludes that it did not. It should be obvious to any serious student of Mormon history that from the beginning Joseph had multiple mental issues, some of which, working together with his cunning talents, actually enabled him to mix just enough Christian truth with error to hold onto power and preserve the gullibility of his flock. It is also obvious that he died not as a martyr but as a lawbreaker of both civil and moral law.
An examination of the canonized account as currently found in the PGP gives us some insight into one of his mental issues. In his life and writings we see a pattern where he attributed to others the very tendencies he rejected in himself. In psychological terms, this is known as projection. The online Encyclopedia Britannica definition reads: "Projection, the attribution to others of one's own rejected tendencies; and reaction formation, turning into its opposite a tendency rejected in oneself".
We now turn to Joseph Smith History 1:19. "For they were all wrong" hints of a one and only true church forthcoming. "Their creeds were an abomination in his sight" is the opposite of his "gospel fullness". "Those professors were all corrupt", whereas Joseph was specially chosen for his purity and innocence. "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men". The "saving (Masonic) ordinances" were revealed to Joseph Smith directly from God.
According to Joseph's account, it was Jesus Christ who addressed him. Now I ask the question, how could any Christian with half a brain believe that our Lord Jesus Christ would say that the Protestant churches "were all wrong" and "that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" when ALL of them preached Christ crucified? How could he say their "professors were all corrupt" and "they teach for doctrines the commandments of men" when they preached from the New Testament and sought earnestly to bring souls unto him instead of trying to exalt themselves like Joseph Smith?
It's the Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators who declare it is THEY who have godliness "but they deny the power" of Christ's saving grace, for it is they who extort money and allegiance in exchange for access to THEIR "saving ordinances". This is the legacy of Joseph Smith. This is the REAL abomination.
Denker, bear with me as I attempt to explain what I have learned by my life experience and research. Concepts like grace are best understood if one knows their historical evolution. The concept of grace came long before the concept of works. Grace is the state in which mankind lived before he/she moved out of the "jungle" and became farmers. Mankinds natural state. The garden of Eden.
The idea of "grace" lives with the hunter gatherer societies because they see everything as a gift from God. There is no ownership. People belong to the earth. Every meal is a gift from the earth mother. Heaven is a free gift given freely to all man. "Gratitude" is the important attitude that goes with grace. Everything is God and everything is freely given. The earth is mother god's natural body. Everything on the earth is part of her. Father sky is the male componant with the sun, planets and stars constellations. Mankind took this stance in response to their natural enviroment.
With farming and settlement ownership is allowed and "works" become the all important concept because hard work is essential to farming. The concept of "grace takes a back seat to "works." God's grace is given some credit for rain and sunshine but the farmer not God owns the land and its' resources. Heaven is attained through hard work. Now the view is this, earth belongs to man; man does not belong to the earth. Man acts as God breaking the taboos of the older former more primitive society. The concept of God evovles to be "an invisible man in the sky" and given credit for the creation of everything and seen as seperate from his creation.
This is and was a lengthy evolutionary process. A book would need to be written to adequately address the evolution of the concept of grace and works. I have addressed this in a big picture generalized way. Religion inherted these two concepts from the ancients. The war goes on as to which is more important. Are we saved by grace or works or both? The grace and works war is left over from the war between the agricuturalists and the hunter gathering tribesmen and wandering pastorial herder societies for use of the land and it's resources. Modern man as nearly wiped out all these cultures along with the wild plants and animals on which they depends.
As for JS's vision, people have visions everday. Why place importance on JS's visions? I have my own visions. Some people believe that visions are messages from God and must be followed. I say trust your own visions and logic and question everything? I hope this helps.
Jesus' was against the monitary system. He threw the money changers out of the temple. He favored life as John the Baptist lived in the desert eating locus and wild honey. Jesus' God was the God of the desert. The God of the desert is a Pagan God.
Posted: 24 March 2016 04:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Winyan
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Denker:
Mormonism in its entirety exists on the single premise that the First Vision actually happened. Scholarly investigation overwhelmingly concludes that it did not. It should be obvious to any serious student of Mormon history that from the beginning Joseph had multiple mental issues, some of which, working together with his cunning talents, actually enabled him to mix just enough Christian truth with error to hold onto power and preserve the gullibility of his flock. It is also obvious that he died not as a martyr but as a lawbreaker of both civil and moral law.
An examination of the canonized account as currently found in the PGP gives us some insight into one of his mental issues. In his life and writings we see a pattern where he attributed to others the very tendencies he rejected in himself. In psychological terms, this is known as projection. The online Encyclopedia Britannica definition reads: "Projection, the attribution to others of one's own rejected tendencies; and reaction formation, turning into its opposite a tendency rejected in oneself".
We now turn to Joseph Smith History 1:19. "For they were all wrong" hints of a one and only true church forthcoming. "Their creeds were an abomination in his sight" is the opposite of his "gospel fullness". "Those professors were all corrupt", whereas Joseph was specially chosen for his purity and innocence. "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men". The "saving (Masonic) ordinances" were revealed to Joseph Smith directly from God.
According to Joseph's account, it was Jesus Christ who addressed him. Now I ask the question, how could any Christian with half a brain believe that our Lord Jesus Christ would say that the Protestant churches "were all wrong" and "that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" when ALL of them preached Christ crucified? How could he say their "professors were all corrupt" and "they teach for doctrines the commandments of men" when they preached from the New Testament and sought earnestly to bring souls unto him instead of trying to exalt themselves like Joseph Smith?
It's the Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators who declare it is THEY who have godliness "but they deny the power" of Christ's saving grace, for it is they who extort money and allegiance in exchange for access to THEIR "saving ordinances". This is the legacy of Joseph Smith. This is the REAL abomination.
God and Christ didn't have anything to do with mormonism. There are so many things about it that contradict Christ's teachings and example. The whole temple ceremony, polygamy, all the lying, the concept of God as a former human, Smiths failed prophecies, his different versions of his own vision. The list is very long.
Christ warned us about false prophets. Smith was a perfect example.
Posted: 25 March 2016 08:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Felix
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People believe in Mormonism as they do a lot of other things that aren't true because humans are inherently gullible. They believe what appeals to them.
Discovering truth often takes an increadible amount of research conducted with a healthy skepticism. People don't do a lot of scholarly investigation before they embrace beliefs and form opinions.
This is why deceivers by and large have ruled over the rest of humanity since time immemorial: because it has served them well and we fall for their lies.
I beleive this was what Mark Twain was talking about when he said "A lie makes it half way around the world before the truth can get out of bed and pull its boots on." Humans are gullible.
It happens in the political arena as well. William Casey (CIA Director) made this statement in a morning cabinet meeting with the president and all the other cabinet heads. "We will know that our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believe is false."
The Church Congressional Committee investigation in the 70's revealed that much of our establishment media was on CIA payroll. We're all being lied to every day and lies come in many different formes including the omission to say.
I could go on with much more evidence that the world is governed by deceivers. We humans are extremely gullible and easily decieved and controlled.
There are two kinds of bad information; that which is given with the intent to deceive and that which is thought to be good but false. We fall victom to both.
I know I am way off topic here so I will reign it in a bit. Joseph Smith was just another brilliant con artist who was perhaps a bit delusional and egotistical.
What I have taken away from all my troubles with Mormonism is a better understanding of our inate tendencies and shortcommings as humans. It's been a great learning ground and I have discovered that what goes on inside of Mormonism goes on in most all human institutions of influence and power.
Lord Acton said "Power corrupts and ablolute power corrupts absolutely." Lies and liars destroy that which is beautiful and free. If we're not vigilant to discover truth and live by true and good principles we will continue to fall victom to the snares placed before us by diceivers. Amen
Posted: 25 March 2016 09:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brother of Jared
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son of perdition:
. . .The idea of "grace" lives with the hunter gatherer societies because they see everything as a gift from God. There is no ownership. People belong to the earth. Every meal is a gift from the earth mother. Heaven is a free gift given freely to all man. "Gratitude" is the important attitude that goes with grace. Everything is God and everything is freely given. The earth is mother god's natural body. Everything on the earth is part of her. Father sky is the male componant with the sun, planets and stars constellations. Mankind took this stance in response to their natural enviroment.
With farming and settlement ownership is allowed and "works" become the all important concept because hard work is essential to farming. The concept of "grace takes a back seat to "works." God's grace is given some credit for rain and sunshine but the farmer not God owns the land and its' resources. Heaven is attained through hard work. Now the view is this, earth belongs to man; man does not belong to the earth. Man acts as God breaking the taboos of the older former more primitive society. The concept of God evolves to be "an invisible man in the sky" and given credit for the creation of everything and seen as seperate from his creation.
SoP,
I like the ideas you present about hunter/gather/herder culture versus the agriculture society leading to different religious philosophies. This is new to me and very interesting.
The Bible has two sets of brothers in conflict with each other. Cain (farmer) versus Abel (herder) and Esau (hunter) versus Jacob (farmer). In the first story, the farmer, Cain, is the bad guy, while in the second the farmer (Jacob) is credited as the good guy despite lying to his father in order to steal Esau's birthright.
Do you think there is any significance to the brother's professions and their approval/disapproval by god, the change in the profession approved by god, and does either story bear on the grace versus works question? It may be this is not covered by the correlated lesson plan.
Posted: 27 March 2016 09:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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son of perdition
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Brother of Jared:
son of perdition:
. . .The idea of "grace" lives with the hunter gatherer societies because they see everything as a gift from God. There is no ownership. People belong to the earth. Every meal is a gift from the earth mother. Heaven is a free gift given freely to all man. "Gratitude" is the important attitude that goes with grace. Everything is God and everything is freely given. The earth is mother god's natural body. Everything on the earth is part of her. Father sky is the male componant with the sun, planets and stars constellations. Mankind took this stance in response to their natural enviroment.
With farming and settlement ownership is allowed and "works" become the all important concept because hard work is essential to farming. The concept of "grace takes a back seat to "works." God's grace is given some credit for rain and sunshine but the farmer not God owns the land and its' resources. Heaven is attained through hard work. Now the view is this, earth belongs to man; man does not belong to the earth. Man acts as God breaking the taboos of the older former more primitive society. The concept of God evolves to be "an invisible man in the sky" and given credit for the creation of everything and seen as seperate from his creation.
SoP,
I like the ideas you present about hunter/gather/herder culture versus the agriculture society leading to different religious philosophies. This is new to me and very interesting.
The Bible has two sets of brothers in conflict with each other. Cain (farmer) versus Abel (herder) and Esau (hunter) versus Jacob (farmer). In the first story, the farmer, Cain, is the bad guy, while in the second the farmer (Jacob) is credited as the good guy despite lying to his father in order to steal Esau's birthright.
Do you think there is any significance to the brother's professions and their approval/disapproval by god, the change in the profession approved by god, and does either story bear on the grace versus works question? It may be this is not covered by the correlated lesson plan.
There is much specualtion around these types of stories. The Old Testament contains only one of many versions. The story of Cain and Able also is found in the Koran, The Dead Sea Scrolls and some other places. There are many points that can be made using the Cain verses Able story, and the Esau versus Jacob story. The professions in my opinion are important.
It has been argued that these stories are about the conflict that arose with advent of farming. Agricultural farming and settlement win over hunters and wandering herdsman. These stories represent the conflicts of their time. In the Cain and Able story God prefers the blood offering. God prefered (Shepherd) Able's way of life.
In the story of Esau and Jacob this is reversed the farmer is God's prefered choice.
This shift from hunter gather and wandering herdsman to farming has been long and bloody. These stories of course contain many other elements of life so many other kinds of conclusions can be draw from these mythologies.
The Bundy's represent this same argument in modern times. Their way of life is being threatened. No longer is grazing livestock seen as a venerable way to live. There is little sympathy for people who are behind the times. The Bundy's views are seen as outdated and irrelevant by outsiders and many insiders. Anthropolgists have concluded that the wandering herdsman societies are the most violent of three groups.
Religions interpret these stories in ways that promote the religion and it's values. In other words to control populations of people. Correlation seem to mean taking all that is interesting out of material and reducing it to superficial nonsense.
Posted: 28 March 2016 07:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Brother of Jared
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son of perdition:
There is much specualtion around these types of stories. The Old Testament contains only one of many versions. The story of Cain and Able also is found in the Koran, The Dead Sea Scrolls and some other places. There are many points that can be made using the Cain verses Able story, and the Esau versus Jacob story. The professions in my opinion are important.
It has been argued that these stories are about the conflict that arose with advent of farming. Agricultural farming and settlement win over hunters and wandering herdsman. These stories represent the conflicts of their time. In the Cain and Able story God prefers the blood offering. God prefered (Shepherd) Able's way of life.
In the story of Esau and Jacob this is reversed the farmer is God's prefered choice.
This shift from hunter gather and wandering herdsman to farming has been long and bloody. These stories of course contain many other elements of life so many other kinds of conclusions can be draw from these mythologies.
The Bundy's represent this same argument in modern times. Their way of life is being threatened. No longer is grazing livestock seen as a venerable way to live. There is little sympathy for people who are behind the times. The Bundy's views are seen as outdated and irrelevant by outsiders and many insiders. Anthropolgists have concluded that the wandering herdsman societies are the most violent of three groups.
Religions interpret these stories in ways that promote the religion and it's values. In other words to control populations of people. Correlation seem to mean taking all that is interesting out of material and reducing it to superficial nonsense.
SoP
Thank you for your thoughts. I have been looking at the Sagebrush Rebellion as a modern affair; Constitution, state's rights, totalitarian police state, etc. Looking at it as a continuation of the ancient conflict between agrarian and nomadic cultures gives an interesting perspective.
The Huns, Tatars, Mongols, Magyars and other herdsman exploded out of the steppes and used their livestock handling skill set to dominate and herd humans.
Another interesting idea is that rather than (supposedly) describe events, religion adopted existing myths to further their agenda. This could include Genesis and the Gospels written long after the described events to create the Jewish and Christian mythos.
I can't believe I got sucked into the Mormon mythos as a young man. I enjoy the give and take on these postings, but I also don't want to get fooled again, as The Who put it.
‹‹ Needing quotes, Links What would Jesus do? He’d do a doobie, according to this research. ››
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Doubletree Suites
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date
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Wrong from the Start
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Don't touch yourself tonight
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Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
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"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
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03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
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Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.
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I met with my Stake President tonight
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Don't touch yourself tonight
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Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
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by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.
by 4thNephite
Nightmares
by son of perdition
The Complicated Relationship With A TBM Family
by LostInParadise
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home
Our Community
Our Library
Our Exit Stories
Member Options
Introduction
For New Visitors
Mission Statement
The Best of PostMormon.org
Click the above icon to go to The Community Discussion Forum, which is the most active area on this website. New members are encouraged to jump in and participate in the discussions. As you do, our House Rules ask that you remain courteous and respectful of others.
Click the above icon to visit our World Map where you can connect with other Post-Mormons in your area. If your part of the world doesn't have a map pin, please consider starting a chapter or becoming an official PostMo' contact person for your area. To find out how, click here and follow the instructions.
Clicking this icon will take you to a page in our Post-Mormon Scrapbook, that lists personal accounts of people who have left Mormonism. Many new members love reading these accounts because it helps them realize that there really are others out there who understand, and can relate to their experience.
The Post-Mormon Community relys on donations from people like you to continue its public awareness program. Whether you can contribute $5, $5,000, or more, you are helping us reach out to others like you, but who still think they are all alone. The Post-Mormon Community is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization.
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
Dovolente
Logged in: 1
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Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Total members: 10225
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Dovolente
I met with my Stake President tonight
by incawhite
Wrong from the Start
by Brother of Jared
Don't touch yourself tonight
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by WinstonSmith
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.
by 4thNephite
Nightmares
by son of perdition
The Complicated Relationship With A TBM Family
by LostInParadise
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home
Our Community
Our Library
Our Exit Stories
Member Options
Introduction
For New Visitors
Mission Statement
The Best of PostMormon.org
The mission of PostMormon.org is to provide and maintain systems that facilitate the growth and development of a safe and supportive community for those who leave or are considering leaving the Mormon Church.
Welcome home!
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
Dovolente
Logged in: 1
Not logged in: 102
Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Total members: 10225
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Dovolente
I met with my Stake President tonight
by incawhite
Wrong from the Start
by Brother of Jared
Don't touch yourself tonight
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by WinstonSmith
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.
by 4thNephite
Nightmares
by son of perdition
The Complicated Relationship With A TBM Family
by LostInParadise
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home
Our Community
Our Library
Our Exit Stories
Member Options
Introduction
For New Visitors
Mission Statement
The Best of PostMormon.org
Post-Mormons are members of a rapidly growing community of families and individuals who have voluntarily left Mormonism. We choose to no longer base our lives, and the lives of our children, on "truths" dictated by others. We believe that truth is freely available to any honest, diligent seeker regardless of creed, age, race or sexual orientation.
We have felt the butterfly’s metamorphosis. Forces that well up from within have compelled us to grow beyond the limits of Mormonism. And so we have become a loosely knit community of friends and support groups, and endeavor to help those like us who also feel the need to explore meaning, purpose and life beyond Mormonism. We celebrate the wonderful diversity of life as we experience as fully as we can our physical and cultural reality. We perceive ourselves as part of a human tapestry that is rich beyond our ability to comprehend, and wonder at this miracle. We have come to realize that there are more ways to do good, and be good, than we can number. What we once perceived as the “strait and narrow way” has broadened to include all ways that promote individual and collective well-being.
We do not apologize for our inability to fully understand reality or the nature of our own existence. As Albert Einstein said:
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Some ask if we are anti-Mormon. Our answer is, no, we are not. We feel we are not because we acknowledge and want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism. We feel we are not because it's not our purpose to encourage people to leave the Church. We feel we are not because many of our family and friends are Mormons and we certainly are not anti-family and friends. But as an organization, we are open about the Church's misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families, and communities. As Winston Churchill once said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."
We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community. Some of us choose to continue their spiritual journey through traditional religious means and others of us identify ourselves as atheistic or agnostic. We respect these choices as we do those of the well-informed among our family and friends who choose to remain traditional Mormons. We feel sad for those who choose ignorance of any kind and strongly disagree with the few within Mormonism who encourage ignorance and spread misinformation.
Life is wonderful. We are overcome by feelings of gratitude for the glimpses we occasionally have of its majesty and mystery. And we revel in the opportunity to connect with each other and those of many other walks of life in ways more satisfying than anything we had previously experienced. We would welcome the opportunity to get to know you and invite you to join in the conversation in The Community Forum on this site.
Sincerely,
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
Dovolente
Logged in: 1
Not logged in: 102
Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Total members: 10225
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Dovolente
I met with my Stake President tonight
by incawhite
Wrong from the Start
by Brother of Jared
Don't touch yourself tonight
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by WinstonSmith
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.
by 4thNephite
Nightmares
by son of perdition
The Complicated Relationship With A TBM Family
by LostInParadise
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
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