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JWs Back to No. 1 in Growth!
by Amazing1914 11 years ago 40 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing1914
Amazing1914 11 years ago



 The Jehovah's Witnesses, while nearly the smallest of the US denominations, is now back on top as the fastest growing in percentage. In previous years, the Roman Catholic Church not only grew more than the total number of JWs in the USA, but they grew about 3 times as fast. All that has changed now.
The following chart is created from data supplied by the NCCCUSA. It is sorted by growth percentage. Several denominations show no change, likely because they only report restimates, or did not get their reports in on time.  The total church members and actual total increases are shown at the bottom.
It is interesting to note that of the total actual growth of all churches put together in the USA, 98.8% went to the Roman Catholic Church (852,663 RCC vs 863,448 ALL ). So, even though Rome loses to Watchtower this year in terms of percentage, they still exceed all churches put together.
Rome increased 852,663 while the Watchtower increased 18,663. In other words, Rome grew nearly 46 times more than the Jehovah's Witnesses. The following chart was made much smaller, but the JWD program automatically reformats it:


SIZE

CHURCH

2005

2004


ACTUAL


PERCENT
 
RANK

DENOMINATION

MEMBERS

MEMBERS


GROWTH


GROWTH
 







 
24

Jehovah’s Witnesses

1,041,030

1,022,397


18,633


1.82%
 
4

Latter-day Saints (Mormon)

5,503,192

5,410,544


92,648


1.71%
 
10

Assemblies of God

2,729,562

2,687,366


42,196


1.57%
 
1

Roman Catholic

67,259,768

66,407,105


852,663


1.28%
 
2

Southern Baptist

16,439,603

16,247,736


191,867


1.18%
 
20

African Methodist Episcopal Zion

1,432,795

1,430,795


2,000


0.14%
 
3

United Methodist

8,251,175

8,251,042


133


0.00%
 
6

National Baptist, USA

5,000,000

5,000,000


0


0.00%
 
8

National Baptist, America

3,500,000

3,500,000


0


0.00%
 
11

African Methodist Episcopal

2,500,000

2,500,000


0


0.00%
 
12

National Missionary Baptist

2,500,000

2,500,000


0


0.00%
 
13

Progressive National Baptist

2,500,000

2,500,000


0


0.00%
 
16

Churches of Christ, TX

1,500,000

1,500,000


0


0.00%
 
17

Greek Orthodox

1,500,000

1,500,000


0


0.00%
 
18

Pentecostal Assemblies

1,500,000

1,500,000


0


0.00%
 
22

Baptist Bible Fellowship Int'l

1,200,000

1,200,000


0


0.00%
 
23

Churches of Christ, MO

1,071,616

1,071,616


0


0.00%
 
26

Church of God, Tenn

Off of Top 25

944,857


Off List


0.00%
 
15

Episcopal Church

2,320,221

2,333,628


(13,407)


-0.57%
 
5

Church of God in Christ

5,449,875

5,499,875


(50,000)


-0.91%
 
14

Lutheran – Missouri Synod

2,488,936

2,512,714


(23,778)


-0.95%
 
7

Evangelical Lutheran

4,984,925

5,038,006


(53,081)


-1.05%
 
21

United Church of Christ

1,296,652

1,330,985


(34,333)


-2.58%
 
19

American Baptist

1,433,075

1,484,291


(51,216)


-3.45%
 
9

Presbyterian

3,241,309

3,407,329


(166,020)


-4.87%
 
25

Orthodox Church in America

1,000,000

New


New


New
 







 

GRAND TOTAL

147,643,734

146,780,286


863,448


0.59%
 

SOURCE:
2005: http://www.ncccusa.org/news/050330yearbook.html
2004: http://www.ncccusa.org/news/04yearbook.html
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago


lmao!
Very sad when you think about it. Looks like the christians are having some trouble keeping their numbers up.
 
acsot
acsot 11 years ago


And when we factor in those who are faking their time and therefore shouldn't be counted as JWs?  Just might offset that "increase", hopefully! Besides the fact that much of their "increase" is due to the kids getting baptized way too young. Anything for numbers!

 
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 11 years ago


Baptism is the first step to becoming an XJW.
Simon, get ready for more visitors!
 
potleg
potleg 11 years ago

But when you figure in all the preaching/recruiting work etc and the thousands of hours spent, it doesn't seem so good to me. Isn't it a bit like someone who trains for a race and only just beats some out of shape guy who smokes,drinks and watches 15 hours of TV each day. Not an impressive victory! Given all the time and effort witnesses put in , along with their regular (sales) meetings, you'd think they'd be miles ahead.
 
Satanus
Satanus 11 years ago


Like potleg said. The catholics don't try at all. The wt meanwhile beats it's slaves mercilessly to go faster, do more, do more, go faster, calls them slackers. Poor, dumb beasts.
S
 
Satanus
Satanus 11 years ago


I would say also, as a side note, that the more of the us population that goes catholic, the more the usa becomes like europe, becomes like the people of the world, and less of the permanent revolution mentality. Not that i'm procatholic, or anything. It's just a stage towards oness and tolerance.
S
 
Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago


I would point out that percentage can create a wrong impression.
If you have a smaller membership base, it is a lot easier to bring in a higher percentage increase in the number of members. It takes fewer bodies to produce a higher percent increase if you have a lesser population.
If you have one million members, it is a lot easier to bring in 20,000 new members to produce a 2% increase, than it would be if you had five million members having to bring in 100,000 new members to produce the same 2%.
I am reminded of the stock exchange, where a stock starting off at ten cents a share is a lot easier to increase by 100% to twenty cents a share, than it is to take a $1.00 stock to $2.00 to get the same 100% increase. I know some stock promoters who work on exactly that principle.
JW's are supposed to be pro-active about bringing in new recruits. Catholics, on the other hand, at least in North America, seem to be a lot less involved in recruitment (proselyting); yet look at how many they increased in one year. I just think that putting JW's at number one on the chart based on simple percentages seems to me to be presenting a questionable impression.
Rod P.
 
Amazing1914
Amazing1914 11 years ago


Rod,
If you read the text of my post, I deal with your concern. Of course the little increase for the JWs is 45 times less than the increase for the RCC. Of course, as the base gets larger, the rate of increase is harder to maintain. Over the last few years, the "%" rate of increase for the RCC has been 3 times that of the JWs. So, in addition to being a giant church, their increase dwarfed the JWs.
This is the first year in a few where the JWs have come up in their rate of growth compared to other churches. Actually, it is not so much that the JWs rate has improved, as the rate of the larger churches was not so good in 2004.
Jim W.
 
kls
kls 11 years ago


Actually, it is not so much that the JWs rate has improved, as the rate of the larger churches was not so good in 2004.
Amazing ,i think that is the answer and the real explanation for the so called growth.
 
Preston
Preston 11 years ago


I just inducted a new member into the Paul Lynde Appreciation Society. Our membership is now at 2, that's a 100% growth! Read it and weap Watchtower!
- Preston
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 11 years ago


Hey - where is the catagory for 'Former witnesses, now active apostates'? I bet we outstripped the WTS in % last year. What is the birth rate in this country? If you took the 'child converts' out of the picture it would change dramatically.
Jeff
 
Frog
Frog 11 years ago

Must have been 18,000 dub babies born in the US over the last year? Isn't really a sign of the dubs growing, is just a sign of interest in religion in general waning. Oh well, seems like we all here need to try a little harder all the same, to spread the truth about the "troof". frog
 
truthseeker
truthseeker 11 years ago


I beg to differ with these numbers...


Jehovah’s Witnesses
1,041,030
1,022,397

18,633

1.82%

Jehovah's Witnesses have never had 1,041,030 publishers in the USA, let alone 1,022,397. These numbers are false. Check the yearbooks; in fact, the highest number this 2005 service year is 1,004,000.
 
greendawn
greendawn 11 years ago

So the dubs are just a minor though very vocal and aggressive religion, where are the statistics that show a generous blessing from jehovah on the preaching work, that should go to the catholics according to those statistics.
Or isn't the FDS directing correctly this separation work of the end?
 
DannyBloem
DannyBloem 11 years ago


Jehovah's Witnesses have never had 1,041,030 publishers in the USA, let alone 1,022,397. These numbers are false. Check the yearbooks; in fact, the highest number this 2005 service year is 1,004,000.

Probably they do not count publishers. As that is hard to compare to other religions.
By the way where are the other religions like boeddists and moslims?
 
carla
carla 11 years ago

Considering they are accountable to no one, how can anyone believe their numbers? would they be open to independent accountants? hardly. carla
 
diamondblue1974
diamondblue1974 11 years ago



 Im not surprised that JWs and Mormons are at the top of this tree however accurate it may or may not be....they are the key organisations which actively go out and recruit new members; its a numbers game...the more you knock the more you sell...the more you sell the more that yell. The figures mean nothing but I find it very sad to be honest; 18,000 duped! its like a mass fraud!
DB74
 
Honesty
Honesty 11 years ago

I don't think less than 19,000 new converts out of 250 million people is such a big deal.
 
metatron
metatron 11 years ago


Amazing!
If this increase is true, why are so many US congregations suffering from low meeting attendance?
Could it be that these are "Rice Christians" - Witnesses in name only?

metatron
 

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JWs Back to No. 1 in Growth!
by Amazing1914 11 years ago 40 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Mary
Mary 11 years ago


Potleg said: But when you figure in all the preaching/recruiting work etc and the thousands of hours spent, it doesn't seem so good to me. Isn't it a bit like someone who trains for a race and only just beats some out of shape guy who smokes,drinks and watches 15 hours of TV each day. Not an impressive victory! Given all the time and effort witnesses put in , along with their regular (sales) meetings, you'd think they'd be miles ahead.
 Exactly. The "growth" that the Witnesses have supposedly experienced is actually an embarassing joke when you think about it. If these other religions are experiencing growth that not too far off what the Witnesses have, without banging on doors, then how productive is their method of preaching? 
 
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 11 years ago

The Revelation Climax book is 95% lies,so would not the Watchtower exaggerate their recruitment membership? Most western republics are free countries-free to go follow whatever belief system you choose-free to go follow daffy duck,or the Watchtowers Adventist derived man-made false dogmas. A discussion of the Watchtowers doctrines would be like a debate of the finer points of hitler's personal autobiography  mein kempf It is a foregone conclusion it's total trash. A B C  A.The central core JW doctrine is Jesus second coming in 1914, is a LIE!  B.Every devout JW will grow old and die just like me.  C. Apostate opposer's like myself will not die at Armageddon     Poet and writer Mark Twain sez: "if a million people believe in a stupid thing  for a hundred years,it's still a stupid thing". Grow old and die just like me.The only variable here is will you also die broken and unsaved?The Watchtower masters say,'dubs don't go to heaven when they die'. So what is the final disposition of a Jehovah's Witness? Yes,contemplate your decaying mortal flesh to come....
 
ljwtiamb
ljwtiamb 11 years ago


I haven't read everyone's comments, so I apologize if this is a repeat:

There is an increasing number of 'secret double life' jws visiting sites like this. So, the wts reported numbers are tainted by publishers, pioneers and elders who would be df'd if found out.
If all of us came forward and exposed ourselves, just think of the sudden drop in the wt report.
How do you think they'd handle that?
 
upside/down
upside/down 11 years ago


The Revelation Climax book is 95% lies
Danny... so what is the 5% that is true?
Or were you just being nice..?
u/d (of the hates those bastards as much as you do class)
 
run dont walk
run dont walk 11 years ago


the numbers mean nothing, it's alot easier for a group of 6,000,000 to have an increase in %, then a group of 60,000,000.
For example, I'm starting a religion today, we have one member, by tomorrow we will have 2 members, WOW 100% increase, WOW, WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the less people, the easier to show an increase in % .
so the % number means f-ck all.
 
sf
sf 11 years ago


If these numbers came from Watchtower, it sure doesn't take rocket science to FIGURE out it's just one more lie on the notch of their Belt.
Another Mask, masking the truth so that the world they hate so much thinks that "with numbers like these, it's just GOT to be The True Religion".
sKally
 
ithinkisee
ithinkisee 11 years ago


Coincidentally, the increase of JW's is one of the Society's classic examples of talking out of both sides of their mouth:


 Are the increases in numbers of Jehovah’s Witnesses evidence that they have God’s divine favor and blessing?

NOExamining the Scriptures Daily, May 19th, 2002Of course, the number of those associated with Jehovah's Witnesses is not a criterion for determining if they enjoy divine favor.
YES
Watchtower July 1, 2002, p.13, paragraph 17-19
Now is the time for Jehovah to express mercy to his anointed servants and their other sheep companions. The evidence that this is so is the extraordinary increase with which he has blessed them…18. Each year, hundreds of thousands of additional "foreigners" associate with Jehovah's organisation, and the way will remain open for many more to follow them. Jehovah says to Zion: "Your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead" (Isaiah 60:11) Some opposers try to close those 'gates,' but we know that they cannot succeed. Jehovah himself has said that one way or another, the gates will stay open. The increase will continue.
19. There are still other ways that Jehovah has blessed his people, making them beautiful in these last days.
-ithinkisee
 
sf
sf 11 years ago


NICE TRY TED!!! LOLOL
As if.
sKally
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 11 years ago


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/93581/1.ashx CHAMELEON JEHOVAH'S CHRISTIAN WITNESSES MORPH THEIR NAME The word "Christian" has been added to Jehovah's Witnesses now because many people don't think Witnesses are Christian.
Ray Franz called it the 'great preaching paradox' all the door to door recruiting they claim and nobody knows even their basics.
-------------------
Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
 
greendawn
greendawn 11 years ago

True the GB are systematic liars so we don't have to take for granted the statistics they give us exaggerated numbers is an easy trick for them to appear stronger than they really are, and keep up morale among the R & F.
 
144001
144001 11 years ago

The only thing they're growing is more resentment, destruction of families, and intolerance of those who don't buy into their bullshit. I'd celebrate if each member of the governing body was stricken with flesh-eating bacteria.
 
jschwehm
jschwehm 11 years ago


The 5% that is true is the part of the book that says that the book was published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 11 years ago


A small percentage of a (very small) number is a (very very small) number.
Now isn't that one of the most inteligent statements you have heard??
NO?? what do ya mean NO????
Outoftheorg
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 11 years ago

The survey doesn't take into account the non-denominational suburban megachurches. That's where the real growth in "Christendom" is taking place.
 
EvilForce
EvilForce 11 years ago

The US population growth rate is approx. 1.1% (using stats from 1990 - 2000) per year. (births - deaths + immigration)
So if they had 1,022,397....simply keeping up with population trends due to births....you would need 1,033,643 to stay even % wise of total population.
So in reality 1,041,030 - 1,033,643 = 7,387 new ones (net).
The average publisher hours per month is what 10 hours roughly? 1,022,397 x 120 hours = 122,687,640 hours / 7,387 new ones = 16,609 hours needed on average to add one new person to the KingDumb Hall. Thats about 8 years of full time (40 hour weeks) for each new one.
Hmmm.....such an enticing message that it takes 8 years of full time work convincing someone to join.
 
Amazing1914
Amazing1914 11 years ago


Hi Evilforce,
Good points. However, does the birthrate percentage you use include the death rate of just under 1%? Also, the Society admits disfellowshipping or Disassociating between 40,000 and 60,000 per year, which is two to three times their new convert rate. So, perhaps we need to look closer to the new baptism and account for the death, DF, and DA rates, and use the net difference to find that their growth of new converts is actually greater than 1.82%. It has to make up for these losses.
Jim W.
 
EvilForce
EvilForce 11 years ago

My numbers were NET growth....meaning births - deaths + immigraton.
So while they do replace the dying and disfellowshiped amongst their ranks....my figures were meant to show how much time is spent for each NET addition. Not "new worshipper". Make sense?
 
jaffacake
jaffacake 11 years ago

The numbers must be true as they are provided by God's faithful & discreet slave, and they have never been wrong about anything yet, have they?
 
Amazing1914
Amazing1914 11 years ago

Thanks Simon for correcting the formatting. It looks 100% better. - Jim W.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

..we'll beat them next year:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 

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Topic Summary
it is interesting to note that of the total actual growth of all churches put together in the usa, 98.8% went to the roman catholic church (852,663 rcc vs 863,448 all ).
church.
21. united church of christ.



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JWs Back to No. 1 in Growth!
by Amazing1914 11 years ago 40 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Farkel
Farkel 11 years ago


Howdy Amazing1914,
It is worth noting that of that large list, only 6 religions had any gain at all. The chart is heavily weighted towards zero growth, followed by negative growth. A 1% to 4% growth ain't much either. I find these numbers interesting because the "press" had stated repeatedly that growth in religion in the USA is on a "big" upswing.
Maybe it's the Muslims who are experiencing the real growth in this Country. Or the Buddhists? Agnostics?
The numbers show how pathetically small dubs are compared with so many other religions. Yet they are undoubtedly the most irritating of all of them.
Farkel
 

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Topic Summary
it is interesting to note that of the total actual growth of all churches put together in the usa, 98.8% went to the roman catholic church (852,663 rcc vs 863,448 all ).
church.
21. united church of christ.



Related Topics
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Police: Teen killed in N.Y. church assault wanted out
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Is the Watchtower Society following in the footsteps of the Catholic Church?
by Esse quam videri a month ago
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth 25 days ago
Terry
"And what happened next was simply unbelievable!"
by Terry 7 months ago
JakeM2012
The extent that desperate cults will go to keep control of their youth
by JakeM2012 5 months ago



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Sept 1 2003 WT: Is There Only One 'True Church'?
by Mary 13 years ago 45 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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Mary
Mary 13 years ago


The latest WT magazine starts out by quoting a Catholic Cardinal:
Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: 'a single Catholic and apostolic Church.
........Although Pope John Paul II insisted that the document Dominus Iesus contained "no arrogance towards, or disrespect for other religions", Protestant church leaders reacted strongly to it.........in June 2001, one minister said that the document was the work of "a powerful faction in the Roman Catholic Church....scared silly by the spirit of openness introduced by Vatican II".........It appears that the....Catholic Curia was disturbed by what has been called religious relativism........[which is] the emergence of a pluralist theology----saying basically that one religion is as good as another...... What then, is the right view? Is there only one true church? Does it subsist only in the Roman Catholic Church? Are other churches equally acceptable to God?
The article then drones on about the "wheat and the weeds", how the 1st Century congregation became corrupted early on and how "history shows that these churches continue to teach erroneous doctrines" without mentioning even ONE. It then says:
Maybe you feel that you have already found that [true] church, or congregation. It is important that you make sure. Why? Because as in the 1st century, there can be only one true church. Have you taken the time to make sure that your church closely conforms to the pattern set by the first-century Christian congregation and that it loyally adheres to the teachings of Jesus Christ? Why not examine this [your religion] now? Jehovah's Witnesses will be happy to help you to do just that."

Isn't that interesting? If a member of the congregation sets out to "make sure" that the WT "closely conforms" to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and they come to the conclusion that it doesn't, then they are "apostate" "worthy of the second death" "murmurers" "complainers", "running ahead of the organization" "haughty" "arrogant" "not following the F&DSC", but everyone else in the world is allowed to examine THEIR religion.
Isn't it interesting how the first century congregation had the 12 men taught directly by Jesus Christ, they had the Holy Spirit guiding them and according to the WT, they fell into "apostacy" within 60 years of it's inception. Yet the religion that Charles Russell started, over 130 years ago, was not headed up by the men taught directly by Jesus and even the WT admits that they have never had the guidance of the Holy Spirit the way they did 2,000 years ago, yet no one ever stops to wonder why it's remained so totally pure  over the years, why it's never been corrupted with "apostasy". Must be nice to be so perfect.
 
jgnat
jgnat 13 years ago


Thank you, Mary. It would not be a bad idea for me to have this magazine around if anybody questions my motives for thoroughly investigating WT claims. I went hunting down how the Catholic church sees themselves. This links to their catechism. Check out their claims for continued apostolic succession.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm
Sound familiar? As the WTS centralizes control and hangs on to their traditions, year by year they sound more like their old arch enemy, the Catholic church.
 
NeonMadman
NeonMadman 13 years ago


Of course, the underlying assumption is that the true religion is embodied in a single organization that one must find and become part of in order to please God.
Unfortunately, the Bible does not support that assumption. The Truth is a Person, not an organization.
John 14:6: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. '"
 
freedom96
freedom96 13 years ago

The WTS says, you NEED to check your religion out, until you become one of us. Then, don't check it out or we will kick you out.
 
SpunkyChick
SpunkyChick 13 years ago


The WTS says, you NEED to check your religion out, until you become one of us. Then, don't check it out or we will kick you out.
Freedom - Well put!
 
Will Power
Will Power 13 years ago


I agree, well put freedom.
Then there is the new bunch getting their tour of heaven. It was beautiful and totally complete with everything you could possibly imagine. When they came to a huge wall......... someone asked "What's behind there?"
"Shhhhhh, thats the .....(JWs/Catholics/fill in the blank) They think they are the only ones here!
 
bluesapphire
bluesapphire 13 years ago


Does it occur to anybody that those JWs on the *fringe* and already having doubts might actually get a little push or shove by these statements in their own literature?
I think the Watchtower constantly sticks their feet in their own mouths. I know when I was already having doubts that reading something like this would really make me *THINK* for myself. I might actually have logged on to the internet after reading such blatant hypocrisy.
We can only hope.
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago


Here's a little something that happened last week that I thought quite interesting.
My sister, who left the Borg 25 years ago, works in a downtown core where the assembly was being held. There's a few restaurants in the plaza there, and my sister was having lunch one day in one of them and was in the bathroom when a couple of Sisters came in. She knew right away that they were Witnesses, and thought she'd be nice and ask them where they were from. The second she told them that she "used to be" a Witness years and years ago, they jumped right in and asked her if she wanted a bible study. She was polite and said "no thank you" and the one gave her a filthy look and sneered "Remember this conversation when Armageddon comes".
My sister was absolutely STUNNED at this remark. Fortunately she doesn't like anyone lipping off to her like that, so she took a coin out of her pocket, flipped it to her and said "Here's a quarter. Why do you go and buy yourself a Christian attitute." And walked away. (she used the line from "Uncle Buck" when he told the principal off, for those of you who saw the movie).
Needless to say, I laughed my ass off when she told me this!!!
 
rocketman
rocketman 13 years ago


Fortunately she doesn't like anyone lipping off to her like that, so she took a coin out of her pocket, flipped it to her and said "Here's a quarter. Why do you go and buy yourself a Christian attitute."
Wow, quick thinking! And a great comeback line too. What the jws said to her just goes to show how self-righteous they really are. They use Armageddon like a threat - thinking all along that as long as they do what they're told, they won't be judged. What an attitude.
 
DFWnonJW
DFWnonJW 13 years ago


Am I reading this wrong or what?
Because as in the 1st century, there can be only one true church.
If there can only be one "true church" and the WT adamantly denies themselves as being "a church", then it's pretty obvious that they CAN'T be that "true church".
 
rocketman
rocketman 13 years ago

Also, Mary, you made an excellent point in your intial post - one I had not considered previously. Indeed, they think that their religion is so wonderful, while the first century Christians contended with "apostasy" after just a few decades. Very well put!
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago


Thanks Rocketman. I remember mentioning this to an elder once................he spluttered and splatted all over the place trying to think of a logical explanation and you know what he came with? I quote: "....The reason the Organization hasn't turned "apostate" like in the First Century CE is because we're closer to Armageddon..."
Uh, ya............okay. And that has what to do with it?
Was I DOUBTING the Organization?? Did I need a Threatening Visit Shepparding Call to scare the living shit out of me readjust my thinking??
 
reporter
reporter 13 years ago


Am I reading this wrong or what?
Because as in the 1st century, there can be only one true church.
If there can only be one "true church" and the WT adamantly denies themselves as being "a church", then it's pretty obvious that they CAN'T be that "true church".
That's interesting...I remember a time where the JWs didn't even consider themselves a religion, but rather, a way of life. Now, they've used the term "church" which used to be frowned upon...
 
rocketman
rocketman 13 years ago


he spluttered and splatted all over the place trying to think of a logical explanation and you know what he came with? I quote: "....The reason the Organization hasn't turned "apostate" like in the First Century CE is because we're closer to Armageddon..."
 I haven't got enough eyes to roll at that elder's comment. And so The Gestapo thought you were a threat because of that? Wow, talk about paranoia. But then again, they couldn't have you thinking and reasoning for yourself now could they?
 
Reborn2002
Reborn2002 13 years ago


This is precisely the reason I have no respect for any Jehovah's Witnesses. Period.
The very core beliefs they adhere to are based on lies, misconceptions, and revisionism of history to preserve the image of the organization.
They are also taught to be hypocrites.
Even as a child, I wondered why they said that everyone else was welcome to visit the Kingdom Hall, but if anyone visited a different church just to see.. you were BAD and subject to judicial action. Then when they go in field service they want people to take their magazines, but if you do not blindly agree with the WT and the FDS, then you are wrong in their eyes.
If something good happens for JW's in the press then they preach it to the high heavens and say Jehovah is blessing efforts. If something bad is exposed in the news, then it is explained as media sensationalism in Satan's world, and lies designed to stumble and tarnish.
If membership numbers increase in any given year, then they say Jah is blessing their efforts in the time of the end. If numbers decrease, then they say the prophecy that "the love of the greater number would cool off" is being fulfilled.
Even armed with ammunition from their own literature showing them to be liars, they then backtrack and claim that New Light has revealed previous beliefs to be in error. Yet if they are God's only organization and an inspired prophet that he is using as his tool on earth, how did they get the message wrong in the first place? Did they misinterpret and get it wrong...thereby exposing them as being fake, or did their God simply change his mind on a matter such as blood transfusions or organ transplants and cause people to die needlessly?
JW's are people that choose to be willfully ignorant. TWT policies kill people and divide families. Therefore, I hate everything they stand for and find them to be a waste of space on our precious planet.
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 13 years ago


2002 wrote:
JW's are people that choose to be willfully ignorant.
Yep, though the mind control is SO strong that they feel they are open minded. It makes it just that much tougher.
I reached a point last year when I asked my wife, why do we believe what we believe about the org?
She gave me a dirty look.
I told here I was serious, and she just said sarcastically, you tell me. I said again I was serious.
Because somewhere along the line, our parents swallowed it hook line and sinker, without researching it. But they somehow reached the conclusion that GOD was speaking through the WT and once that premise is accepted, cognitive dissonance keeps most from ever questioning what they hear or believe. You know: God speaks through the WT (ok, sorry; rather, they "are God's channel of communication"; same thing, just doesn't sound quite so straight jacket) and it is THE TRUTH. If what they teach is contradictory or changes, then they change the reality; maybe we didn't understand it, or maybe it was US who got it wrong; or my favorite, NEW LIGHT!!!
I have seen it again and again; I have a good friend who thinks all those who report abuse are apostates trying to cause trouble; he doesn't even consider for a second that the claims are true; it is NOT POSSIBLE for his mind to think it, because of the mind control.
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

What really makes me gag about that article is the catholic church boasting that they represent true christianity . You think the WT is bad , the catholic church used to have the convert or die policy often using very cruel forms of punnishment on people who they accuse of heresy . The pope actually thinks he is the apostle peter . Talk about one f''''''d up religion .To me they are the whore of babylon .
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago


the catholic church used to have the convert or die policy often using very cruel forms of punnishment on people who they accuse of heresy . The pope actually thinks he is the apostle peter . Talk about one f''''''d up religion .To me they are the whore of babylon .
Yep, the good ol' Catholic Church certainly has blood on her hands, that's for sure. However, the Witnesses are certainly not far behind. Today, they have the stay-or-we'll-destroy-your life policy using very cruel forms of punishment on people accused of "apostasy". The Governing Body actually think they are Christ's brothers.
As for your comment about the CC being the whore of babylon, I agree 100%. Even when we were studying the Revelation book, it always clumped in ALL religions under Babylon the Great. I always thought "no way, it's the Catholic Church" because it likens her to the "mother of the whores". Now if you have a whore house, the madam is the "chief whore" and all the other girls work for her. And basically, all Christian religions that we know today, originated somehow with the Catholic Church. Anglican, Protestant, Church of England, Lutheran, etc. So yes, to me it would make perfect sense that the CC is the one they're referring to when it calls her the "mother of the whores", not all religions combines.
Just my two cents worth.
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 13 years ago


Very interesting points being made here. May I add this thought: the Watchtower question seems to be premised on an incorrect usage of the word "church", for I'm not aware of "church" being part of NT theology.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", so that his followers became known as The Way. Where is there an indication of "Church" in that? Or a true "church" (denomination/religion) ?
Of course, the WTS must emphasise the differences in order to justify their existence, so that the R&F are constantly bombarded with the expression "true Christians".
Quite simply, the artcle's title is all wrong and would better be entitled :"Is There Only One Way of Salvation?"
Cheers, Ozzie
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago


And so The Gestapo thought you were a threat because of that? Wow, talk about paranoia. But then again, they couldn't have you thinking and reasoning for yourself now could they?
Of course not! After all, I'm just an un-annointed woman! By the way, in the Fall Term, I'm taking Psychology of Religion (grin) ........am actually thinking of majoring in Religious Studies; God knows I already know half of it. But this is one course, for obvious reasons, I'm REALLY looking forward to.
Yet if they are God's only organization and an inspired prophet that he is using as his tool on earth, how did they get the message wrong in the first place? Did they misinterpret and get it wrong...thereby exposing them as being fake, or did their God simply change his mind on a matter such as blood transfusions or organ transplants and cause people to die needlessly?
Exactly. It's amazing how they just LOVE to point out all the "false teachings" of every other religion on earth to "prove" that they originate with Satan de Debbil, but when THEY change their prophecies (after painting themselves into a corner) then it's "New Light" or "flashes of light" or some such crap like that.
By the way, on the back cover of the Sept 1st Botchtower, it tells us the REAL way to solve poverty, and it ain't by givin' food to the poor. Noooooooo, you're to give them the Botchtower and Asleep! magazines so that they can see how they won't be hungry anymore in the New System which is "right around the corner".
 

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Sept 1 2003 WT: Is There Only One 'True Church'?
by Mary 13 years ago 45 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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ozziepost
ozziepost 13 years ago


G'day Mary,
So, the end is still "right around the corner"??!! Far be it from me to ignore such a welcome event, but it seems to me that the Borg wants "their cake, and eat it too".
For some years I've failed to understand how the changed "generation" teaching harmonises with the WTS's claim that Armageddon is really close and "time is running out". Without a fixed time scale for a generation as they formerly did have, how on earth can they justify such a claim? Yet many of the R&F, especially the "old-timers", continue to "bear witness" to the closeness of the end without making any change that reflects changed Borg teaching. Without a fixed time length for a generation, the Borg can only instruct its members "to keep the day close in mind" as Jesus commanded. But isn't that also orthodox christian teaching?
Cheers, Ozzie
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago


So, the end is still "right around the corner"??!!
Oooooh yes it is!! They SAID so! So it MUST be true!!

For some years I've failed to understand how the changed "generation" teaching harmonises with the WTS's claim that Armageddon is really close and "time is running out". Without a fixed time scale for a generation as they formerly did have, how on earth can they justify such a claim?
Well obviously you haven't been paying "close attention" to the latest bullshit "present truths". They now claim that the "generation" that Jesus was talking about "apparently" refers to people living at a certain time. That's about as vague a prophecy as you can get. And of course when you look around at world conditions they are "confident" that the Big A is gonna come and get us all "reeeeeeeal soon".
Yet many of the R&F, especially the "old-timers", continue to "bear witness" to the closeness of the end without making any change that reflects changed Borg teaching.
That's because the "old-timers" who have invested 40, 50 60 or 70 years into this religion, do not want to admit that they've been taken for a ride. That's just part of the human psyche. No one wants to believe at the age of 70 that they sacrificed getting married, having children, grandchildren, a decent job and a nice home all for an Organization that has screwed them royally. Plus, the older you get, the more set you get in your ways and you don't like alot of change; especially all the change that would be involved if they suddenly decided to leave the Borg. It's kind of like a 60 year old woman who finds out that her husband has has a mistress for the last 20 years. What does she do? Does she leave him? She's invested probably 40 years into the marriage. They probably have children, grandchildren, a nice home, good retirement package. Is she going to throw all that away and be alone?
The Borg depends on this very thing. The more they can cut the outside world off from the R&F Witness, the better chance they have that you'll stay.
 
unique1
unique1 13 years ago


I always thought it was wierd that we told everybody at the doors to question their religion, but JW were never allowed to question theirs. Even as a young teen I found that to just be odd.

"Here's a quarter. Why do you go and buy yourself a Christian attitute."
CLASSIC!!!
 
Nosferatu
Nosferatu 13 years ago


Why not examine this [your religion] now? Jehovah's Witnesses will be happy to help you to do just that.
A couple of messages I'm getting from this:
"We'll show you why your religion is wrong, but don't you dare show us why ours is wrong."
"We'll not only help you examine your religion, but we'll show you how wrong it is and how perfect we are".
My question is, who in their right mind would fall for this? In my opinion, this is an incredibly childish and desperate way for the society to be begging for more members.
 
rocketman
rocketman 13 years ago


My question is, who in their right mind would fall for this?
Good question. Thing is, we know how it works. Once they get you to "examine" the topic, the door is open for them to convert. Notice of course, as we all have, that they never come out and tell people this. Instead, they make it like they are simply there to be helpful in 'examining' a person's religion.
Mary, I think you'll do very well with those religious studies! You've very often made excellent, thought-provoking comments. Plus, your use of this feature is second to none!
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago

Thanks!
 
Reborn2002
Reborn2002 13 years ago


heathen said:
the catholic church used to have the convert or die policy often using very cruel forms of punnishment on people who they accuse of heresy . The pope actually thinks he is the apostle peter . Talk about one f''''''d up religion .To me they are the whore of babylon .

to which mary replied:
Yep, the good ol' Catholic Church certainly has blood on her hands, that's for sure. However, the Witnesses are certainly not far behind. Today, they have the stay-or-we'll-destroy-your life policy using very cruel forms of punishment on people accused of "apostasy".
Despite the very relevant points mary raised regarding current practices of dividing families, shunning, and humiliating which leads to depression and suicide, let us not forget that the Watchtower Society and the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses have stated doctrine in their previous magazines which to date have not been rescinded that suggest that the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses still wish they could physically kill unbelievers.
*** Nov 15, 1952 Watchtower ***
Questions from Readers
· In the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshiped, how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?-P. C., Ontario, Canada.
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. "Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee."-Deut. 13:6-11, AS.
Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates  only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws . The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship . However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof.
Just food for thought. If the Watchtower Society happily writes and supports rules which break up families, kill children and others via an ever-changing blood doctrine, and shield pedophiles to protect the image of the organization to the public.. what makes you think they would not kill unbelievers or those who can expose them for a lie if they could get away with it?
They would.
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago

Thanks for bringing that out Reborn. I actually did think of that when I was doing that post, but I didn't know exactly where it was written. You're right. I truly believe that Crooklyn WOULD kill "apostates" if it were legal. Nice Christian attitude on their part eh?
 
acsot
acsot 13 years ago



unique1 said:
“I always thought it was wierd that we told everybody at the doors to question their religion, but JW were never allowed to question theirs.”
I remember a few years ago, as the cognitive dissonance was building up in my own mind, we were attempting to preach, that is, sell literature, to a Muslim man who was adamant about not taking any of our literature (there were a lot of Muslims in my former congregation's territory, almost all with the same response when we knocked on their doors). After asking how the call went, the other JWs in the car group just shook their heads at how misguided those poor Muslims are and how controlled their actions are. I thought to myself: “They’re acting exactly as we would act. If anyone can understand where they’re coming from, it should be us.” Well, needless to say alarm bells started going off in my head and try as I could, they wouldn’t shut off.
Another time during the Service Meeting there was a part dealing with the internet. A paragraph mentioned the dangers of doing Biblical research using the internet as well as the ever-present all-encompassing power of apostate writings, and ended with the phrase that Jehovah's people will learn the truth where and when the WTS decides. My gut reaction was "like hell I will!". That day I knew I was on my way out.

 
hooberus
hooberus 13 years ago


Of course, the underlying assumption is that the true religion is embodied in a single organization that one must find and become part of in order to please God.
Unfortunately, the Bible does not support that assumption. The Truth is a Person, not an organization.
John 14:6: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. '"
good points Neonmadman
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

I don't think the WT ways are any where near as cruel as the catholic church in it's day . I mean do you think shunning is as bad as having your eyes cut out or your toungue cut off ?YOu have got to be kidding .
 
bluesapphire
bluesapphire 13 years ago


Heathen, we're talking about two different points in history. You can't judge something from 500 years ago according to the values and judgements of the today's world view.
By today's world view, what the Watchtower does is in fact just as bad as cutting our tongues out.
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

bluesapphire ---------- I can in no way agree that what the WT does is as bad as having a toungue cut off or eyes removed . The catholic church has boasted for centuries it's the only true religion and is guilty of murder thruout the centuries by literally killing people who disagree, it still goes on in Ireland .
 
Reborn2002
Reborn2002 13 years ago


I can in no way agree that what the WT does is as bad as having a toungue cut off or eyes removed
That is a matter of personal opinion.
Others would argue that they would rather lose a limb or organ instead of being cut off from their family via WT doctrine or shunned and humiliated.
Or if a person considers the current policies and practices the WT instructs regarding blood transfusions and shielding pedophiles.... or past policies like organ transplants, the WT does kill people needlessly. The WT does make people suffer. The method is different, but just as bad as inflicted physical torture or harm.
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 13 years ago


My question is, who in their right mind would fall for this?
No kidding!! No matter what religion I was, I would never want to study about it with a different religion. Of course they will point out all of the faults while praising their own.
What rubbish!
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago


I don't think the WT ways are any where near as cruel as the catholic church in it's day . I mean do you think shunning is as bad as having your eyes cut out or your toungue cut off ?YOu have got to be kidding .
Hi Heathen, I guess it's like debating which is worse on a child: physical abuse or mental and emotional abuse. While mental and emotional may not harm the child physically, the scars that it leaves can be just as devastating as physical abuse.
And what about the brothers and sisters in Malawi in the 1960 & 1970s? Look what happened to them. They were beaten, tortured, raped and murdered. Why? Because of one lousy vote taken by the Governing Body which forbade them carrying a political card. When I first read about this in Crisis of Conscience, I cried my eyes out, realizing the thousands that died horrible deaths because of one asshole in Crooklyn decided to change his mind on the vote. Yet at the same time, the brothers in Mexico were allowed to bribe authorities.
What's so pathetic about it all, is that the Catholic Church had their Inquisition hundreds of years ago when society in general practically regressed back to the Stone Age where there were no basic Rights for anyone, people were illiterate, they lived in squallor. It was a horrible period and rightly called "The Dark Ages".
With the Watchtower, their "Inquisition" has taken place most notibly within the last 30 years. They should know better.
 
rocketman
rocketman 13 years ago

What happened at Bethel in 1980 certainly seemed like an Inquistion. And for many, being in front of a JC feels the same way. And recently, right here at the board there's been posted the experience of Rebel, who, because she talked about her doubts on one doctrinal point, the understanding of the 144,000, to one friend suddenly found herself asked to go before before a JC. It certainly smacks of the 'ol Dark Ages.
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

Mary -- I don't know all the facts on the malawi situation but if they refused to show support for a government like that then I have to give them credit for it . Further more I am willing to bet that most of you would turn your family over to the gustapo in nazi germany before having your eyes gouged out and toungue removed . I digress here tho , The WT does claim that milosevick in yugoslavia was being manipulated by the catholic church in his ethnic cleansing crusade not long ago .I've not heard other sources confirm this but sounds likely to me .I agree that the WT goes beyond what is written at times but stil wouldn't accuse them of the violent attrocities caused by other sects .
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 13 years ago


The Truth is a Person, not an organization
AMEN! brother madman
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 13 years ago


I'll stick with the old truth is sounds better, The big A can't be right around the corner because we have not yet expierenced world peace.
No matter what the WT wants to claim, we have never had world peace! NEVER!
 

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Topic Summary
the latest wt magazine starts out by quoting a catholic cardinal:
just as there is one christ, so there exists a single body of christ, a single bride of christ: 'a single catholic and apostolic church.
........although pope john paul ii insisted that the document dominus iesus contained "no arrogance towards, or disrespect for other religions", protestant church leaders reacted strongly to it.........in june 2001, one minister said that the document was the work of "a powerful faction in the roman catholic church....scared silly by the spirit of openness introduced by vatican ii".........it appears that the....catholic curia was disturbed by what has been called religious relativism........[which is] the emergence of a pluralist theology----saying basically that one religion is as good as another...... what then, is the right view?



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Sept 1 2003 WT: Is There Only One 'True Church'?
by Mary 13 years ago 45 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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Mary
Mary 13 years ago


Mary -- I don't know all the facts on the malawi situation but if they refused to show support for a government like that then I have to give them credit for it .
Actually, it wasn't even to "show support" for the government; the "party card" was more of an identification card or what we know as a Social Security Card. And especially in light of the fact that the brothers in Mexico were allowed to bribe the authorities for favours, is it especially terrible. And if you think that this didn't involve torture like the Inquisition, read this example of what the brothers and sisters went through in Malawi:

One of the most vicious examples of physical persecution involving Witnesses occurred, not in the Communist world, but in Malawi. The savagery of the attackers in Malawi was such that thousands of Witnesses of all ages and both sexes were physically brutalized by police and citizens alike (Jubber, 1977). One Witness, a Mrs. Magola, being pregnant and heavy with child, could not outrun the M.C.P. police. When they caught her, they battered her to death in full sight of many townspeople and police officers, and not one of them came to her aid (Awake!, Dec. 8, 1972, p. 12). 
This brutality ostensibly revolved around the refusal of Witnesses to purchase party cards, an act which caused many Witnesses to be beaten on their backs and buttocks with planks of wood that had nails in them. When they showed signs of pain, their attackers beat harder, saying, 'Let your God come and save you.' In addition, they broke a bottle and used the broken edge to 'shave' some Witness men. On September 22 Jasteni Mukhuna of the Blantyre area was beaten till his arm was broken. At Cape Maclear, at the southern end of Lake Malawi, Witness Zeiphat Mbaiko was covered with bundles of grass tied around him. Petrol was poured on the grass and set afire. He died as a result of the burns... In the Ntonda area, south of Blantyre, Smith Bvalani, his elderly mother and others of Jehovah's Witnesses, both men and women, were beaten ...until they lay unconscious on the ground.
 
Michael3000
Michael3000 13 years ago


Oh, for Pete's sake...

 I'm gonna be sick from the Watchtower...
 
cat1759
cat1759 13 years ago


on the back cover of the Sept 1st Botchtower, it tells us the REAL way to solve poverty, and it ain't by givin' food to the poor. Noooooooo, you're to give them the Botchtower and Asleep! magazines so that they can see how they won't be hungry anymore in the New System which is "right around the corner".
Mary and everyone,
I just have one question: We have been hearing about the end before 1975, can we really live off of the magazines for 28yrs? I know you can use the magazines for ass wiping as my mom never bought toilet paper.
Enjoyed all the comments, so funny and sad. The Malawi situation was extremely troubling for me back then. Once I read Crisis of Conscience I was so appalled at what was going on in Mexico. It all did not seem fair. What a shame to have been persecuted and some died for this while others were allowed.
How many used to read the yearbook with all those horrible experiences and would sit and cry at the pain and suffering of the brothers and sisters in Malawi, Rwanda?
Cathy
 
No Apologies
No Apologies 13 years ago


Ok about Malawi. Those accounts are awful, and the idea that the org was somehow responsible is disturbing. But, um, what about the people that carried out these horrible atrocities over a 25 cent card? What was going through their heads? How did they justify murder and rape? Just something to ponder...
Was there ever any outcry from the world community? Where was Amnesty International back then?

Whatever happened in Malawi? I know Banda died or was deposed. Outside of Watchtower publications, I have rarely heard of it in the media. What kind of government did they have at the time, or now?
 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago


First, the Catholic Church was NOT the first Christian church. Mary you'll learn this in college. Or get a head start and read some of Elaine Pagels work. Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, The Gnostic Gospels, Beyond Belief. Or try Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.
Second, the protestant churches also persecuted and murdered and tortured those who would not convert. Anyone remember Cromwellian England? If you were Catholic and not murdered (burnt alive) then Cromwell's men sliced off you nose and ears. Michael Jackson would appreciate this --- so many aristocrats (mostly women because their husbands were murdered) lost their noses that a fashion of fake noses began! Yeah really!
Or even better how about the British Empire under Queen Victoria and the sub- continent of India remember the black whole where the "heathen" were slaughtered because they were well, heathen?
Third, Or (not to pick on the Brits alone) how about those Pilgrims (Puritans --- hmmm wonder why they called themselves pure? Because they new they had the one pure faith?) who came to America for religious freedom and proceeded to murder anyone who questioned the "brothers". Those witch trials were a copy cat serial killing from the dark ages. Also, let's take this up a knotch to the 1960's in the southern states where more than one Catholic priest was lynched by YES I'm gonna say it even though I live in the south --- Baptists (weren't they originally Dutch?).
And again if you think that Catholics were the only converter/murderers; consider the Islamic potentates who occupied Spain and converted not only people (killed the men, raped the women) but churches too (Muslims did this to the Eastern churches too ex., the Hagia Sophia and the Alahambra in Spain.)
The French revolutionaries (Marat Sade, Robespierre, Danton and you know the rest) ordered the killings of the Catholic priests during their revolution.
In Asia, including the islands of the Pacific many Protestant missionaries were killed by local shaman of tribal religions. This also happened in Tibet by the Lamaist Buddhists (Yeah, these guys aren't all peace and love).
Come to think of it, the Israelites killed, maimed, raped, burned, conquered any nation who would fight them and some who wouldn't.
 
Mary
Mary 13 years ago

Good point Panda. There's alot of other religions besides the JWs and Catholics that are responsible for atrocities, all in the name of religion.
 

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Topic Summary
the latest wt magazine starts out by quoting a catholic cardinal:
just as there is one christ, so there exists a single body of christ, a single bride of christ: 'a single catholic and apostolic church.
........although pope john paul ii insisted that the document dominus iesus contained "no arrogance towards, or disrespect for other religions", protestant church leaders reacted strongly to it.........in june 2001, one minister said that the document was the work of "a powerful faction in the roman catholic church....scared silly by the spirit of openness introduced by vatican ii".........it appears that the....catholic curia was disturbed by what has been called religious relativism........[which is] the emergence of a pluralist theology----saying basically that one religion is as good as another...... what then, is the right view?



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Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses
by smiddy 3 years ago 85 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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smiddy
smiddy 3 years ago

Both claim to be the sole path to God (or did at some point )
Both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though JW`s are a bit ambiguous about this)
The R.C Church has a Pope , the J.W.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful
Both accept the name" Jehovah" as the personal name of God , with the R.C.church also accepting the much widely accepted name of" Yahweh" a more correct pronunciation
The R.C. church first giving that name" Jehovah" by Raymundus Martinus in about the thirteenth century. That name was derived from the four letters of the tetragrammaton translated in english as YHWH or JHVH and the catholic monk inserting the vowel letters to either read JeHoVaH or YaWeH
The Roman Catholic church holds sacrement the confessional ,whats divulged to a preist in the confessional is between only the preist and God,nobody else.
The Jehovah`s Witnesses say that what is divulged in a judicial enquiry (confessional ) is the same as the R.C .confessional , privelegded information, penitent priveledge. However the difference here is the WTB&TS eg: Jehovah`s Witnesses pass on that information to the Governing Body , the members that make up that body.So it is not just between the three elders on a judicial committee and God it now becomes common knowledge to a much wider audience , the governing body .
Of course their are doctrinal differences between the R.C.Church and Jehovah`s Witnesses as their are with the thousands of faiths claiming to be christian ,however the JW`s in their 130+ years of existence have never demonized any other religion like they have with the Roman Catholic Church , and yet they are so similar.
I would welcome any other similarities you can come up with / or correct me where I am wrong
smiddy
 
ÁrbolesdeArabia
ÁrbolesdeArabia 3 years ago

Roman Catholics have the Pope and Arch Bishops, JWs had four popes and now Arch Bishops and a Cardinal.
Roman Catholics are willing to talk to their friends and family if they live the Church, JWs are not!

Roman Catholics promote attending College and getting a higher education, JWs do not!

Roman Catholics will spend money on Charity, JWs do not spend money on anyone other than JWs mostly.

Roman Catholics Priest don't repeat your confessions to the flock, JWs Elders are not as confidential.
 
zeb
zeb 3 years ago

spot on
 
ziddina
ziddina 3 years ago

Hah! Funny you should mention this...
I've been observing parallels ever since I got the heck out...
 
Kojack57
Kojack57 3 years ago

The difference between the too equates to sibling rivalry. Little brother ( WB&TS) trying to outdo big brother ( R.C. Church)
Kojack
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 3 years ago

I see as many similarities between Pharisaic Judaism and the witlesses as I do with the Roman Cat Licks. They are structured similar to a ripoff of the Cat Lick church, but many of the policies and attitudes would be much more expected in a Jewish cult than a Christian one.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Both work out their salvation through works, and it never seems to be enough. They think Catholic Guilt is bad; they should see the Witnesses slinking from the theatre.
 
AuntBee
AuntBee 3 years ago

I had an interesting convo with a Witness this week, and i found some of the parallels useful to challenge her trust in the WT. For example, saying that Jesus is not Mediator for all men. Thus, you need to stay "connected" to the Annointed, who are connected to Jesus directly. Thus, making the org the Mediator between you and the Mediator Jesus. I told her it reminds me somewhat of traditional Catholicism, as you need what they provide, to get to Jesus. She was insisting it is not like that at all...
On the other hand, Catholicism is not as monolithic as it used to be - wow, the beliefs of individual Catholics vary widely! I think there is overall a more ecumenical attitude these days.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 3 years ago


Jws are are a reaction to Catholicism, that despite its shortcomings, stands for something far greater than they will ever even understand.
The only similarity is that they want to usurp the central role Catholicism, for historical reasons, always had in defining Christianity and what it means to be a Christian.
Catholicism was the cradle of Christianity, (its culture, its values, its heritage), and its guardian for centuries. Jws would like to reinvent Christianity in their own image, and substitute everything the Catholic Church has built for 2000 years for whatever it is (New World Order stuff), of which a lot of us in this site had already a taste.
 
unstopableravens
unstopableravens 3 years ago

i will say one possitive thing they both have in commen and trust me its hard to do at least they both are anti-abortion. the rest is prob negative
 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

Both have a priesthood that separates from the laity. Just let the priest do your thinking for you, and jump through their ritualistic hoops.
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

Perhaps, Pterist, but isn't it rather telling that the very reasoning the Catholic Church gave for necessity of the priesthood was shown to be justified during the bloody Protestant/Communist rebellions in Czech and Germany? Not to mention the plethora of sects and cults with their own private interpretations, like the Jehovah's Witnesses....
"...Whenever the Bible is ripped out of conext, 'revolutionary ferment of extraordinary violence' erupts. Once the Church is removed as the arbiter of Scripture—once Scripture was no longer read according to what Augustine called 'the spirit'—it gets read, as Augustine warned, according to 'the flesh,' the way the Jews read it, as a prescription for establishing heaven on earth and, ultimately, a front for appetite. The Gospel becomes 'carnal' when seperated from the Church; it becomes a justification for violations of chastity or of the prohibition against usury. It becomes, as Nietzsche claimed, a front for the will to power." —E. Michael Jones, The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit and Its Impact on World History, Fidelity Press, Indiana, 2008, pg. 329-330


 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

Nostonecutters. *** The Gospel becomes 'carnal' when seperated from the Church ***
God's word becomes carnal when separated from his Spirit in Christ....1 John 2:27



As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

 
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

That sounds all nice and good, Pterist, but history shows that the spread of private interpretation has been disastrous for the faith. What made the Protestant revolution possible wasn't the work of God; it was the dismantling of Catholic power (separation of Church and State) in Germany. Even Luther regretted what became of the movement. The debauched and bloody Reformation in places like Muenster and Tabor was proof positive of the consequences of all the private interpreting going on. Germany was one big Waco, Texas full of Branch Davidians rolling around in pig dung, running around naked, and committing all kinds of fornications.
What I am saying isn't to minimize the intimacy between an individual believer and God. It has more to do with doctrine. You, as a Preterist, should appreciate the unity of the Universal Church during the Millennial Reign of Christ. After the 1,000 years was up, Satan went to work through the Judaizing and Reformation of the Church. Don't you see the ending of the 1,000 years and the proliferation of Sola Scriptura as evidence that Satan had been unleashed on the Church?
 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

Nostonecutters ....I have some preference for PARTIAL Preterism/Amillenism eschatology which belive the "church" and spiritual Israel has been ruling in the heavens after carnal Israel and the earthly temple was destroyed in 70 AD. I believe the 1000 years is symbolic and is still in progress.
The "church" on earth however, has always been a mixture of wheat and weeds and still is. The "Doctrines" in the Nllama all about the new life in Christ to be enabled to overcome sin and death. The isogesis "doctrines" that developed over the years may or may not be harmful. The TEST of all doctrine is, does it lead to righteous living through GRACE as works OF salvation rather than works FOR salvation. In Revelation 21:8 those NOT allowed To drink from the water of life are UNGODLY and leading carnal lives, I dont see any "doctrines" mentioned that separates One from life in CHRIST.
So yes I agree with you, that on earth man made divisions within the wheat and weeds are divisive. That will continue until the final battle and the final judgement. We just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The doctrine of a new creation through participating in the death of Christ and sharing in his resurrection is the foundation. Eschatology is mentally challengeing but NOT a formula for salvation.
Thank you and Shalom!
 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

Correction ... So yes I agree with you, that on earth man made "doctrines" within Christianity are divisive, and so the wheat and the weeds remain together.
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 3 years ago

Watchtower Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body Catholic church have same organization structure
Yep, twins seperated at birth!
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

The Watchtower is correct in being set up as an authoritarian body. They got this idea from the Catholic Church. However, the Watchtower is a gross perversion of the true Church. That is all I am saying, Pterist. Atheists often accuse this kind of authoritarianism as a form of exploitation. I don't deny that that has happened, but history has shown that no organization, religious or business, can function at its best without some form of authoritarianism. These same atheists won't dare criticize their bosses or employers for being "authoritarian", would they?
 
smiddy
smiddy 3 years ago

Kurt.
A picture speaks more than a thousand words .
smiddy
 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

Nostonecutter ***** history has shown that no organization, religious or business, can function at its best without some form of authoritarianism***
Thats a far cry from Jesus's words "where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name".....the real earthly "church" is invisible" to this system, what is seen is temporary what is not seen is eternal. However, Babylon has its ordained place in history.
Have a blessed weekend
Shalom
 

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Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses
by smiddy 3 years ago 85 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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apostatethunder
apostatethunder 3 years ago


First of all, without the Church we probably wouldn’t even have Jesus words today, or the Bible as we know it, or a continuous and reliable account of our history and culture during the past 2000 years. Secondly, for us as Christians it is nice to go to Church and see more than two or three people gather together and sharing our faith and values.
The Church was the ultimate authority on the Scriptures until the XV century where all the Reformation movements started, for various personal reasons (Henry VIII, Luther…). Religious and scholars in the Church were honestly seeking truth, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquine…. Those who separated were not always moved by honourable motives.
Closer to our day, all totalitarian regimes of the XX century have seen the Church as an obstacle. Those who seek to bring the Church down, do so only because they crave the moral authority it has for themselves.
Religions or ideologies that make a central point of their doctrine to criticize the Catholic Church would do well in having a hard look at themselves and what they stand for.
The Catholic Church is the biggest charity in the world, with hospitals, schools, missions around the world, Caritas for the poor, and they offer support and comfort to their followers without asking them to sell their souls to them...they also help everybody without asking what religion they have, while those who attack it have only their own hatred, sectarianism and self interest to show in contrast.
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

Well said, apostatethunder. The Catholic Church's authoritarianism was a protection mechanism against revolution and religious anarchy. It is not a coincidence that anywhere in Europe where the Reformation gained a stronghold, revolution (even of a sexual nature) and anarchy prevailed.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 3 years ago

I agree that for a church (any religion) to survive on earth, it needs some legitmacy. It needs some authority. When I view the Roman Catholic Church, I see appalling history. Simply appalling unChristian behaviior. This is well document. Yet the church also did extraordinarily good things. Its charitable works move me deeply. When the Church had gross political power, it was corrupt to the core. Vatican II brought new life to the church. European states were becoming quite secular. The Church was so powerful and overreaching that the peasants of the French Revolution destroyed Notre Dame. They were excessive.
What bothers me in both cases (and the Roman Catholic Church is transformed now) is not legitimacy. One could argue that the WT has no legitimacy. The overreaching and mind control bothers me. I am not a theologian so I can't debate doctrines.
The Catholic Church believes you need the church as mediator. Simply reading scriptures will lead you to evil. Protestant churches insist that scriptures alone are enough, which is strange b/c they have their ministers and sermons.
The Witnesses believe you need the GB as mediator. Since the origins of the RC church are vague to most of us, the WT is so much closer to our own time and hence, the claims leads to more skepticism. I visited the Vatican. The poverty of the people and the majesty of the structure, art, and music was striking. I cried looking up at the Sistine Chapel, visitng some catacombs, seeing the Pieta, Raphael, etc. Michaelangelo. Listen to mass music and then listen to kingdom melodies.
One difference is very obvious since Vatican II. The Catholic laity will not tolerate b/s. They are the chief backers of victims of pedophiles. Many have cut off contributions to the diocese and instead give to small local charities that they can monitor. Look at the American nuns facing down the Vatican. When I worshipped in New York, the Woodstock Jesuit Seminary members and faculty consecrated Anglican Eucharist and delivered the bread or wine to the congregation. I don't know how they were not ejected but they spoke freely and passionately when giving sermons, both in the Anglican church and in their own chapel.
It is hard to generalize about the RC. The WT is so much more of a monolith. Imagine the WT with the power of the RC church. It makes you want to perish at Armageddon.
 
Chariklo
Chariklo 3 years ago

Well, I'm a Catholic and have, thank goodness, gone back to the Church.
I wouldn't know where to even begin to start, but I see virtually no similarity between JW's and Catholics. Someone said that both have a priesthood. no, they don't. Catholics do, in a direct line of laying on of hands going back to Jesus, as they believe. JW's don't even understand the concept of priesthood and do not have even an I oration of it. Their elders are nothing like priests.
Catholics have seven sacraments. JW's have none, and deny the very concept of sacraments, according to one elder who, with his wife, was indoctrinating me.
But I just want to lend my support to apostatethunder, and Band on the Run. Apostatethunder, you've already said much that I'd want to say.
 
Twitch
Twitch 3 years ago

Paging Sulla...
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

They both have an appalling record of abusing children and protecting the perpetrators.
The both put dogma above the well being of their members - JWs and blood; Catholics and birth control.
They both ask their members to believe things that no sane person could take seriously.
They both officially teach there is on salvation outside their respective organisations.
They both infantalise their adherents but only the Catholics have the balls to actually call their leaders father.
to be continued...
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

RE: salvation outside the Church.
Lets be clear that for the RCC, there is no salvation outside the CATHOLIC church, that is the universal Church of Christ ( anyone that claims that Christ is their lord and saviour are part of the catholic church).
That does not mean that there is no salvation outside the RCC.
While most associate Catholic Church with the RCC ( and the RCC doesn't do much to change that view), the reality is that the Cathoilic CHurch is the universal Church of Christ, made up of ALL those the believe Christ is Lord and Saviour, regardless of denomination.
What the JW's and RCC do share is an organizational heirachy that isn't really biblical.
The also share an inclination for "human doctrine" to superceed scripture, thought they both tend to disguise that by saying that it is based on biblical interpretation.
and ex:
RCC say that the Trinity is implicit on the bible but not explicit ( nowhere does it state that God is a Triune being).
JW's say that the doctrine that Jesus was the Archangel Michael is implicit but not explicit ( nowhere doe sit state that Jesus was Michael).
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago


That does not mean that there is no salvation outside the RCC.

From Catholic Answers.........
The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
When speaking of salvation, Jesus offered more details than just his words quoted above. For example, consider these three verses:
◦He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
◦[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)
◦[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
Notice that in these three verses Jesus associated salvation with baptism, confession, and the Eucharist, respectively. Catholics recognize that these sacraments are administered through the Church. In fact, in the case of the latter two, a validly ordained priest is necessary for their administration, so the sacrament of ordination must also be associated with salvation. A primary role of the Catholic Church in conjunction with salvation is becoming quite clear.
 
Chariklo
Chariklo 3 years ago

PSacramento is quite right, Cofty. The word Catholic means universal.
Note too that the Catholic Church recognises all baptism as in accordance with its principles, de facto because it accepts as baptised everyone baptised with water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and with the intention of baptising. Thus, anyone can actually baptise, as with the case of someone who baptises in extremis, such as a newborn baby with a tenuous hold on life.
Although you have quoted valid extracts, they are just that: extracts. The Catholic Church is so much more than that.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

So what part of the quotations I posted is just plain wrong?

a validly ordained priest is necessary for their administration, so the sacrament of ordination must also be associated with salvation .

separating from the Catholic Church  and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

Absolutely Cofty, but none of that means the RCC and that is what is crucial and why, after the second vtican council, they were called "hypocrites" and accused of contriodiction by the more "conservative" of the RC.
The universal catholic church is NOT the RCC, although, like I mentioned before, the Vatican rarely makes that clear.
From the Catechism:
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." 55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).
777 The word "Church" means "convocation." It designates the assembly of those whom God's Word "convokes," i.e., gathers together to form the People of God, and who themselves, nourished with the Body of Christ, become the Body of Christ.
778 The Church is both the means and the goal of God's plan: prefigured in creation, prepared for in the Old Covenant, founded by the words and actions of Jesus Christ, fulfilled by his redeeming cross and his Resurrection, the Church has been manifested as the mystery of salvation by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. She will be perfected in the glory of heaven as the assembly of all the redeemed of the earth (cf. Rev 14:4).
779 The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine. That is her mystery, which only faith can accept.
780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.
 
Chariklo
Chariklo 3 years ago

No, Cofty, not wrong. Incomplete.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." 338
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

I still can't see how the quotes posted can be reconciled with what you are saying.
Only a priest ordained by the RCC is recognised by the church is it not?
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

Only a priest ordained in the RCC can administer the Sacraments in a RCC, yes.
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

Thank you, Twitch! Like Henry VIII, I am called to defend the faith; except that he was a schismatic and heretic and is burning in hell right now while my date with the flames will have to wait a while longer, it seems.
On the other hand, he was able to kill a cardinal (Fisher) and Thomas Moore, while all I can accomplish is to piss people off here. Speaking of which, Cofty, how's it going?
You said, quoting from a Catholic source:

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
Correctamundo. However, the key to this sort of thing is whether people are working out of ignorance. We have pointed out that a sin requires that the matter be important (which schism certainly is) and that it be done with full knowledge (which is often not the case). For people who were afflicted with JW-ism or other Protestant fan-fictions, we might suppose that they have not committed the sin of schism simply because they don't know what they are doing. Hell, if everything the JWs told me about the Church were true... well, I trust you get my point.
That said, you point out that both the Eucharist and confession require apostolic succession, which my Protestant separated brethren lack. Thus, they cannot receive these sacraments.
For a Catholic who becomes a JW, the question is somewhat more complex. It cannot be denied, after all, that the religious education of Catholic young people is something like a catastrophe, allowing silliness like JW-ism seriously to be entertained by some Catholics. Their culpability is unclear to the extent that they have no idea what they are talking about in the first place.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

Which is a long way of saying that anybody who says "F~~~ the pope" with full knowledge of all relevant facts is going to hell regardless of their piety, faith or good works.
How is that different from the Watchtower exactly?
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

RE: Baptisim -


V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?
1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. 57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize 58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation. 59
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

PS - I'm interested in what is the norm not in exceptions for extenuating circumstances.
 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 3 years ago

Catholic Church is a schismatic Church that broke away from the Apostolic Orthodox Church in the year 1040 AD...from the Catholic Church, the Protestands came out, and there we have the thousand branches of extreme Protestand Churches & faiths, and one of them is the WT...
At the end of the day, they all have similarities in structure, but WT has nothing in common, either in faith, or dogma with the Roman Catholic Church
 

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both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).
both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).
the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.



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Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses
by smiddy 3 years ago 85 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Christ Alone
Christ Alone 3 years ago

Ethos stayed away from this thread, I see.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago


Only a priest ordained in the RCC can administer the Sacraments in a RCC, yes.
And a priest is necessary to adminster the eucharist which is necessary for salvation.
Again lets not get distracted with exceptions.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

And while it is a bit long winded:

III. THE CHURCH IS CATHOLIC
What does "catholic" mean?
830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." 307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation" 308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost 309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race: 310
All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God's will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit. 311
Each particular Church is "catholic"
832 "The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament. . . . In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord's Supper is celebrated. . . . In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted." 312
833 The phrase "particular Church," which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession. 313 These particular Churches "are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists." 314
834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity." 315 "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord." 316 Indeed, "from the incarnate Word's descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior's promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her." 317
835 "Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she put down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world." 318 The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches "unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church." 319
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation." 320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'" 321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." 322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." 324
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." 325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 326 "the first to hear the Word of God." 327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", 328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." 329
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330
842The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . 331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." 332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. 333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. 334
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

Sorry could you highlight the relevant point that answers my question?
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

Which is a long way of saying that anybody who says "F~~~ the pope" with full knowledge of all relevant facts is going to hell regardless of their piety, faith or good works.
How is that different from the Watchtower exactly?
Well, schism is a big deal. But I don't think official Catholic teaching claims to know how Jesus judges people. So, you're being a little bit of a drama queen, I'm afraid.
But, PSacremento is not dealing right: Catholic teaching is that a Catholic or Orthodox priest is the only one who can administer a valid Eucharist.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

Both work out their salvation through works
I can tell you that is not true. Salvation through grace, not works. Catholic soteriology ranges from almost-Calvinism to Molinism. There is no binding systematic soteriology, but salvation through works is considered heretical.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

Yes, only an ordained priest can preside over the Euchrist Sacrament:
1411 Only validly ordained priests can preside at the Eucharist and consecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and Blood of the Lord.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago


So, you're being a little bit of a drama queen, I'm afraid. - Sulla
How so? Any chance of information rather than personal comments?
Only a priest ordained in the RCC can administer the Sacraments in a RCC, yes.
And a priest is necessary to adminster the eucharist which is necessary for salvation.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

And a priest is necessary to adminster the eucharist which is necessary for salvation.
No, that's not true. First off, Sulla already pointed out that Orthodox can administer the Eucharist. Secondly, non-Catholic Christians, for example, can be saved, even if they do not ever in their lives receive a valid (from the Catholic perspective) Eucharist.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

What needs to be made clear is that, Salvation for a CHRISTIAN is not a matter of one thing OTHER than God's grace through His Son.
The economy of salvation is soemthing else.
In that regard, salvation is a combination of things such as baptisim, eucharist and such BUT those are human doctrines that make one a part of the Church, not so much doctrines that SUPERCEED God's grace through Christ.
It is God's Grace that gives salvation, not anything that man does or partakes in.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

Think of it as:
You are saved now enjoy the eucharist and NOT: you partake of the euhcarist and now you are saved.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

So what are you not telling us?
Apart from Orthodox and RCC priests nobody can adminster the eucharist so that rules out all Protestant denominations.

non-Catholic Christians, for example, can be saved, even if they do not ever in their lives receive a valid (from the Catholic perspective) Eucharist.
Please expand on "can".
The official Watchtower answer to the question "Will only JWs be saved" is no but we all know what they really mean. This sounds familiar.
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

Yeah, what they said. Lemme just add, Cofty, that I said that drama queen thing just because you were talking like the Church claims to send you to hell if you are a schismatic. That ain't true and the statement is uncharistically unhelpful, in my opinion.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago


It is God's Grace that gives salvation, not anything that man does or partakes in.
I know soteriology very well PS thanks.
I feel as if there is a lot of prevarication going on.
Why become a RC if a protestant can receive god's grace regardless of their fully-informed rejection of the RCC?
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

Please expand on "can".
"Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation"
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago


you were talking like the Church claims to send you to hell if you are a schismatic. That ain't true and the statement is uncharistically unhelpful, in my opinion.
So somebody who dies in active opposition to the RCC is not in any danger of eternal torment in hell then?
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

All those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord BECOME part of the catholic (universal) church (Not the RCC) and they are saved NOT because they became part of the church but because of God's divine Grace through Jesus.
All those that do NOT accept Jesus because they do not KNOW him, will be judged based on their actions and intents.
All those that KNOW Jesus and REJECT Him will not be saved and have alrady been judged.

The crucial element here is KNOW Christ and what that means.
 
Chariklo
Chariklo 3 years ago

And even non Catholics who are not Christians, because while they live there is yet a chance for them to learn and believe. And even if they die not believing, they may yet. E saved as the Church does not seek to limit God's promise of salvation, since Christ died to save all. Always, always, there is Gld's merciful grace to consider.
Never anywhere,despite all of Canon Law, does the Church forget that God can and will act as he chooses, and that he wants everyone to come to him. However, those who, with full knowledge, deliberately turn their back on God, stand in grave risk of condemnation, but only God knows.
however great the sin, not only does the Church make available the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but it recognises, as the priest who instructed me all those years ago made certain that I understood, that anyone who in his heart is sincerely sorry, is forgiven. Such a one will still benefit from the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession).
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

There is only one sin that leads to damnation and that is to blasphemy the HS, which is to deny ( meaning to know and reject) Christ.
 
Chariklo
Chariklo 3 years ago

Yes, PSacramento, always allowing for God"s grace and mercy, and never limiting God by our own statements or rules. Because only God can see the true state of anyone's heart.
 

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Topic Summary
both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).
both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).
the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.



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Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses
by smiddy 3 years ago 85 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago


Why become a RC if a protestant can receive god's grace regardless of their fully-informed rejection of the RCC?
I believe the reason is that fully-informed rejection of Christ's Church is a pretty big deal. That is, why would a fully-informed Christian reject the Church Christ built, and could he call himself a Christian if he did so?
But lots of people have too much pride to allow themselves to become fully-informed. On the other hand, it is not only Protestants who have this problem, so Christ will have to make a judgment call, I guess.


So somebody who dies in active opposition to the RCC is not in any danger of eternal torment in hell then?
Wouldn't say that. More like: everybody is in danger of making a final choice against God. I think you are still working with JW-style IF THEN statements.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

"Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation"
So what about a pious Protestant who knows the gospel but who rejects utterly the doctrines of the RCC and all it stands for?
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago


why would a fully-informed Christian reject the Church Christ built,
Because they sincerely believe the RCC is an abomination that Jesus would want nothing to do with for example.
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

Because they sincerely believe the RCC is an abomination that Jesus would want nothing to do with for example.
Ha! Well, that circles back to the fully-informed part, I guess.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago


Because they sincerely believe the RCC is an abomination that Jesus would want nothing to do with for example.
Indeed and one can argue that is a valid point.
But then they would NOT be denying CHrist or God would they? they would be denying a man-run and humanly-flawed organization.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

So what about a pious Protestant who knows the gospel but who rejects utterly the doctrines of the RCC and all it stands for?
I cannot answer that question because I cannot read the heart and mind of another person. It is even possible for such a person to be misinformed and laboring under what is termed "invincible ignorance."
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

BTS, Sulla, Chariklo and PS you are all trying to make it sound like the RCC doesn't really care what denomination a person is.
I'm not interested in the RCC position on exceptional circumstances or about people who never knew the gospel. These are the get-out clauses the Watchtower uses in its official answer to the same question.
Lets take the example of a well-informed an deeply pious Protestant whose knowledge of theology is better than all of us combined. He subscribes to the doctine of the "Preisthood of all Belivers" and has utter contempt for the RCC.
He would rather die than accept the eucharist from a RCC priest.
I suspect we are going to get another evasion and a "leave it up to Jesus" answer....
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

But then they would NOT be denying CHrist or God would they? they would be denying a man-run and humanly-flawed organization.
That goes all the way back to the Twelve. One guy betrayed him. Another denied him three times. The rest ran away when things got tough. And ever since then, there have been bad apples.
Even so.
And I tell you that you are Peter, [a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades [b] will not overcome it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16%3A18&version=NIV
...if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3%3A15&version=NIV
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

BTS, Sulla, Chariklo and PS you are all trying to make it sound like the RCC doesn't really care what denomination a person is.
No we are not. That is not the teaching of the RCC. The RCC teaches that it, as the Church founded by Jesus, is the fullest repository of Christian truth. No outside or inside power can prevail against it. It also teaches that there can be no salvation outside the Church, and by that I do not mean a particular church like the RCC, but the Body of Christ, which is not only here on Earth, but also in Heaven.
I suspect we are going to get another evasion and a "leave it up to Jesus" answer....
Not even the church rules that an individual is definitively in Hell. Not even Judas. Sometimes yes in the case of Heaven, such as with Saints, but not Hell.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

BTS, Sulla, Chariklo and PS you are all trying to make it sound like the RCC doesn't really care what denomination a person is.
Oh no, I don't think that is the case because the RCC does want you to be RC.
I'm not interested in the RCC position on exceptional circumstances or about people who never knew the gospel. These are the get-out clauses the Watchtower uses in its official answer to the same question.
Lets take the example of a well-informed an deeply pious Protestant whose knowledge of theology is better than all of us combined. He subscribes to the doctine of the "Preisthood of all Belivers" and has utter contempt for the RCC.
He would rather die than accept the eucharist from a RCC priest.
I suspect we are going to get another evasion and a "leave it up to Jesus" answer....
In the end, it is up to God, there is no way around that.
Intent is something that we don't discuss enough and the fact is, doing ALL the God "requires" of you with the wrong intent is probably worse than doing nothing.
Why be aprt of the RCC or any other church? is it because you love God, crave fellowship and found it there? or because you think doing this and that gives you salvation?
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago


It also teaches that there can be no salvation outside the Church, and by that I do not mean a particular church like the RCC, but the Body of Christ, which is not only here on Earth, but also in Heaven.

And THAT is the key difference between the RCC and the WT in this regard.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 3 years ago

In the end, it is up to God, there is no way around that.
I believe it is up to us. God wants all to be saved, and will turn no one back who comes to Him. Those who are not are ones that do not want to be, and choose not to be, and prefer to spend eternity away from God.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

I believe it is up to us. God wants all to be saved, and will turn no one back who comes to Him. Those who are not are ones that do not want to be, and choose not to be.
Well, predestination and the elect debates aside, LOL, I agree my friend, 100%
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

So the pope thinks god is just as happy with a sincere protestant christian as with a RC one? Cool.
So WTF has all the centuries of fighting and forced conversion been about?
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago


So WTF has all the centuries of fighting and forced conversion been about?
Honestly?
Ego and the papacy.
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

I would suggest, Cofty, that the idea that God would want someone to be Catholic or Protestant is missing the point. We -- well, some of us -- want God. We can't have him, because he is transcendent and a impossible to understand, what with having being as his essence and all. But God, as the Jews and Christians insist, meets us where and as we are. Bronze Age goatherds, Medieval barely-civilized warriors, post-Christian sophisticated hipster brights -- doesn't matter. Turns out, so the Christians insist, God loves everybody.
Finally, of course, he became a man. Doesn't make sense, but there it is. And to facilitate this act moving forward in history, he left a Church. It's a really irritating institution sometimes that happens to have a few crucial benefits. One of which is that it delivers the sacraments, the ordinary means of receiving grace.
But the JW-inspired mindset will miss this, nearly always. For them, God wants this and that; God wants us to preach and God wants us to not fornicate and God wants us to pray and be JWs. And they think that the Catholic approach is similar, except that the Catholics think God really wants everybody to be Catholic. It ain't like that.
 
Knowsnothing
Knowsnothing 3 years ago

So, according to Sulla and the official church doctrine, the RCC is Christ's Church alone, correct? Can we please get a clarification on this? A simple yes or no?
I'd rather this be a learning experience for me. What does the Catholic Church have to offer? Why claim it as the sole truth?
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

cofty said:
So what about a pious Protestant who knows the gospel but who rejects utterly the doctrines of the RCC and all it stands for?
The Orthodox Church is a viable alternative. Orthodox are not under the Pope's authority, and some branches do not believe in the Immaculate Conception or Indulgences, yet they retain the beautiful doctrines of the Church Fathers. The Protestant Reformation is as tainted as the Catholic Church, if not more.

So WTF has all the centuries of fighting and forced conversion been about?
Forced conversions never came from the papacy. In fact, policy was the opposite, especially during the Spanish Inquisition. However, forced conversions were part of Reformation policies.

He subscribes to the doctine of the "Preisthood of all Belivers" and has utter contempt for the RCC.
This sounds appealing, Cofty, but even Luther learned through the hard school of experience that it wasn't realistic.

Band On The Run said:

Vatican II brought new life to the church.
On the contrary. Vatican II subverted and split the Church and is largely responsible for the Church's current demise. Vatican II was a hijacking by the Church's foes. I recommend reading Judaism and the Vatican, by Vicomte Léon de Poncins, on this matter.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 3 years ago

Thomas More tortured many Protestants to death. Death would have been merciful. I was a fan after seeing A Man For All Seasons but recent Henry VIII and his wives bios made me see More in a new light. Good riddance, More.
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

But, Band on the Run, More was not attempting to torture them into converting to the Catholic faith. They were tortured and exectued as subversives and revolutionaries. It's apparent that More realized there was a coup d'etat taking place in England. Catherine of Aragon's statements of Henry operating within a puppet regime are revealing, especially considering what happened thereafter. Like Bill Clinton, Henry VIII was being exploited through his passions. The Boleyns were agents of the Reformation.
 

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Topic Summary
both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).
both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).
the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.



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Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses
by smiddy 3 years ago 85 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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wiser
wiser 3 years ago

The topic and comments are very informative.
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

So, according to Sulla and the official church doctrine, the RCC is Christ's Church alone, correct? Can we please get a clarification on this? A simple yes or no?
I'd rather this be a learning experience for me. What does the Catholic Church have to offer? Why claim it as the sole truth?
Knowsnothing, both the Orthodox and the Catholics have valid apostolic succession. Nobody else does. Thus, other Christian groups are splinters from the Church and are in greater or lesser union with it. The fullness of the gospel is taught by those churches in full communion with the bishop of Rome. The degree to which those churches not in full communion with Rome fail to possess the full gospel ranges from de minimus (Orthodox) to complete (JWs).
If you think that the life of a Christian centers around communion with Christ, then the Eucharist is the theological and historical center of that thing known as Christian religion. That can happen in Orthodox or Catholic churches. In addition to the sacraments, a Christian can also benefit from the faithful teachings of the ancient Church and the witness of the saints as guides to holiness.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 3 years ago

I'd rather this be a learning experience for me. What does the Catholic Church have to offer? Why claim it as the sole truth?
The RCC offers, much liek the orthodox one, apostolic lineage and unbroken tradtion.
All that we have in terms of Christian doctrines, tradition and denominations are owed to the RCC and the Orthodox Church.
There is only ONE truth and that truth is God, not any book, institution, organized reigion, or anything else.
Again, the RCC and the JW"s share some things in common, a heiarchy being the most obvious, but they are world's apart in terms of doctrines, history and traditions.
 
panhandlegirl
panhandlegirl 3 years ago

One big thing difference, that I noticed, between the RCC and JWs, is that when you go to Mass, it's all about worship. At the kh, it's all about studying and proving that JWs are right and the only ones God loves and will save during Armagaddon. Did we ever worship Jehovah or Jesus? All I remember doing is studying the WT mag and listening to talks, learing how to go,what to say in fs, and studying one of their publications at the Tues night study.
PHG
 
NoStonecutters
NoStonecutters 3 years ago

Indeed, PSacremento. If all the denominations and Churches today had followed the Bible in the Apostolic tradition of the Church Fathers, we would not have the huge mess we have today. The Apostolic tradition is simple and straightforward, whereas, all the sects and cults today are complicated and just about dominating and controlling people.
 
smiddy
smiddy 3 years ago

No Stonecutters , PSacremento ,and other theists ,
" . If all the denominations and Churches today had followed the Bible in the Apostolic tradition of the Church Fathers, we would not have the huge mess we have today. The Apostolic tradition is simple and straightforward, whereas, all the sects and cults today are complicated and just about dominating and controlling people."
IF, and this is a BIG, IF ,Jehovah , Allah , Yahweh , or whatever else you want to call" GOD" ,{ all man made names I might add} , has kept silent these past 2000+ years , dont you think it`s possible he/she/it/ only exists in the minds of theists ?
Does this scripture fit YOUR GOD ? : " Eyes they have but they cannot see , ears they have, but they cannot hear , a mouth they have but they cannot speak , those worshipping them will become just like them ." ( SILENT )?
I haven`t heard GOD come to his defence these past 2000 years , when atrocities ,barbaric acts , against both theists and so called infidels have occured, attributed to his name , He is
 GOD isn`t he ?
What did that scripture I say I referred to ? is he pre-occupied on the privvy ?
Whats that saying ? if you live in glass houses dont throw stones .
food for thought
smiddy


 

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Topic Summary
both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).
both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).
the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.



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History of the Bible - JWs will not like this
by Amazing1914 10 years ago 20 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing1914
Amazing1914 10 years ago

Historically, the Bible is a secondary support for Christians and Jews. I was raised Roman Catholic, and our tradition and practices included the Bible, but it was not a key centerpiece of our faith. The Jewish side of my family likewise have a rich history of tradition and faith that is lived, and not pinned down to every word in the Bible. When I have met with my Jewish family and friends for Bible discussion, I have enjoyed how they "allegorize" the Bible and give historical ponderings that reflect much more emphasis on personal meaning, rather than some "official" dogma.
The Bible was not really completely compiled and agreed upon until almost 400 years after Christ. The Hebrew scrolls were there, but were not commonly available to Christians except in the Synagogues. The New Testament was not there at all. Early Christians at times may have had letters shared and hear a reading, and possibly be able to copy the letters. But, it was the ancient Catholic Church (before the East-West split in 1054 AD) that eventually collected these letters and decided upon which ones were canonical and which were not. Christians largely lived by Church tradition and short creeds for memory (hence the Apostles Creed):
Pope Damasus assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Roman Council in 382 A.D. He commissioned St. Jerome to translate the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin, which became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official version, in 1546. [Source: http://www.drbo.org/intro.htm]
The DR New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles. [Source: http://www.drbo.org/intro.htm]
The whole Douay-Rheims Bible was revised and diligently compared with the Latin Vulgate by Bishop Richard Challoner in 1749-1752 A.D. The notes included in the text were written by Dr. Challoner. [Source: http://www.drbo.org/intro.htm]

One can see that the Bible was not really made available in general to people to get copies until after 1611 AD. Then, the completed verification with the Latin Vulgate was not complete until 1752 AD. This must give us cause to wonder just how the Watchtower Society can makes its absurd claims about restoring "truth" in these last days (similar to Mormon claims) when in fact such could not be circulating at all, not even during the time of Christ, except by what was known and accepted by word of mouth, tradition, and letters that were circulated. So, it was eventually the early Catholic Church that declared the Bible inspired. The New Testament is a Catholic work, built upon Catholic criteria, and Catholic claims of inspiration long after the Watchtower considered the Catholic Church to be completely apostate. Essentially, if the Watchtower really thought about it, the Bible is the work of total Apostates! Some modern Protestant denominations that get all worked up over the Bible seem to treat it as something that just popped directly out of heaven. Some groups, like the JWs, treat every word as coming from the mouth of God. Many people forget that the Bible is not with Word of God, but that Jesus Christ is the Word of God! - John 1:1. Could the Bible be inspired? Yes. But, I believe that it "contains" inspired words of God, and that the Bible also contains errors and words of men. So, when the Apostle Paul says that "All Scripture is inspired of God" he was really speaking about the Hebrew Old Testament. The Eastern Orthodox recognizes the limitations of the Bible, and takes a more pragmatic view than do modern Protestants, especially fundamentalists. We must be careful when quoting the Bible to understand its limitations. The Christian faith is built far more upon tradition and Church evolution than upon Biblical developments. This is a point that completely escapes and ultimately undermines the credibility of such groups as Jehovah's Witnesses who think that they have restored "truth" but in fact have done nothing more than created a fiction.
So, for those that believe all of this history and the pros and cons, each one must decide on the historical and Bibical opinions that are varied, that they have studied and researched and come to their own conclusions. - Blueblades


Absolutely! The reason that I associate with the Greek Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox) is because of such pragmatic views. Actually, I was raised Roman Catholic, and our views were somewhat similar. This is why Catholics do not give the Bible quite as much attention as do Protestants. There are pros and cons to this view. Catholics, both Roman and Orthodox, have a wide variety of personal views at all levels of the Church. The Orthodox especially is very reluctant to impose dogma upon the Church. They keep it vey limited to Church tradition, ritual, and liturgy. They would be embarassed to publish something like the many volumes of The Watchtower magazines which function more like detailed operating procedures of a court of insane rules.
All of us are affected on what we want to believe, scripturally or historically. I have always said in my past post's on here that there will always be two camps for and against opposing views and conclusions, this cannot be avoided. - Blueblades

Agreed. However, there are facts of history we can pin down that are not subject to any real question. It is the "meaning" we place on those facts that cause the divided opinions. The fact that the early Church Fathers, especially the Ante-Nicene, taught the Trinity is there for all to read. I found it fascinating, given that when I became a Jehovah's Witness, I was led to believe that the Trinity was not really taught until the 4th century. So, I am sharing these findings on JWD for everyone to consider yet another way that the Watchtower misled us.
As for me, I'm in the "DOUBTING THOMAS" class. Remember Jesus rewarded Thomas greatly with a personal appearance even though he doubted. So, there is hope for people like me. - Blueblades


I posted something on this about Thomas years ago. In my own personal faith, I have recently renewed my former "Catholic" style of personal experience with God. By saying Catholic, I always included the Orthodox who are really the same faith, but they do not recognize all of the Pope's claims of monarchial authority. They hold that the authority of the Church should be with the Bishops as St. Ignatius stated in the year 105 AD, and run by ecumenical councils, the way it was prior to the schism of 1054 AD, where the Pope was a "first among equals" who led, but did not dictate. The two churches are continuing reunification dialogue.
So, as a Catholic, the way is to hold personal beliefs, and not "cram" these views down the throats of my fellow humans. I love and respect everyone and their differing views, from which I am challenged and learn. I have simply returned to the Catholic position that by living my faith, my humble words and example will be more powerful than by being a dogmatic s.o.b. And, in the Catholic way, it is better to realize that one can always learn and be open to change from various sources. True, some Catholics and their leaders have not always been so open-minded, but these have not been dominate among the majority of Catholics. The Bible is an important and useful historical work. It details a rich history of the Jews and early Christians. But, it must be kept in perspective and not worshiped as an icon, as Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to believe. Jehovah's Witnesses bitch about Catholics venerating the Virgin Mary, but themselves worship a book as the Word over the Lord Jesus Christ as the Word. Thus they invent rules of men that supplant what Jesus taught. Jim Whitney
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago

That works for me, Jim
Narkissos put me onto Karl Barth, whose writings and opinion of the Bible I find fascinating.
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 10 years ago

I posted these thoughts on the last thread that addressed this issue, but wanted to re-post here becasue I think it is important to have a balanced view of our Bible. And Jim, I am getting confused as to your point.

Jim,


That was a great point about the statement "all scripture is inspired" because most people do not understand that this applies to the Hebrew text. That is all they had at that time.


I do feel, like a lot of others that the Early Christians knew what they were talking about also. A lot of information they wrote was based on what they were taught by Jesus himself. But I can understand why people don't agree with everything too. Because there was a long time period between Christ's death and the writing down of the Greek scriptures. And also, it is all second or third hand information and different people have different writing styles. So I get ALL that, but still feel that the Greek scriptures are just a valuable as the Hebrew ones. And that the majority of the information was passed on fairly accurately. This is because of the NT complete harmony with the OT.


In Genesis we have the fall of man, kicked out of Eden, and the tree of life being taking away. This is just the beginning of the story in the Bible. All the texts in between that and Revelation shows how Jehovah planned on reconciling this event and restoring everything. All of it is really a story about Jesus you could say. Because HE is the key to it all.


In between Genesis and Revelation we have the lives of others of like faith and their experiences, and encouragement for the future, prophecies fulfilled to boost our faith, some very basic instructions for Christians and what the future will bring. Which eventually brings us back to man being ransomed and restored in his relationship with God, death done away with, the restoring of the earth back to an Eden, and the trees of life being available again. (Revelation 21:1-5, and chapter 22). So, you see it is one, whole, complete story. And you cannot have an accurate story with just the beginning and not the ending. But you have to take it, as you will. Each person needs to decide for himself what he believes.
I hope this post makes sense, I really don't see how or why anyone that claims to be Christian would try to prove in some way that the Greek scriptures are not really accurate? Didn't you not prove on the past post that the early church fathers (as you call them) were in agreement with the bible? Am I misunderstanding your point here?


 
Amazing1914
Amazing1914 10 years ago

Lovelylil,
No, you are not confusing anything, nor are you confusing. I apologize if I may have caused any confusion above. I am not saying that the Bible is not very important, or that it is the pure work of men. Rather, it is not as essential as groups like the Watchtower make it out to be in a worshipful way, treating the Bible like a book of law, subjct to endless interpretations and revelations of new light.
Rather, the Bible is a rich history of God's dealings with the Jews and then Christians. It contains the words of God, but have recognizable errors. I will grab a quote from the Greek Orthodox site that helps exaplain this much better.
My main point, though, is that the Bible is a useful tool, but was not essential to the development of the Christian Church of Faith for several hundred years, and was not even available to most Christians until 1611. Yet, somehow, the Holy Spirit kept the Church together and the faith thrived and survived.
Jim Whitney
 
Undecided
Undecided 10 years ago


 I have come to think of the bible as a book composed by men who wanted to believe in a God and created their own views of what he is like. There are so many different views given in the bible of God's feelings about humans and what they should do to get his favor that I can't take any of them seriously.
If you want to believe in a God, that may be good, depending on how your religion teaches he wants you to act. Should we kill all those who don't believe in him as was done in the Jewish history in the bible and the crusades or should we be like Christ supposedly taught?
I think I will just make up my own personal religion and not expect anyone else to follow my views, I won't even write a book about it.
Ken P.
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 10 years ago

Amazing,
I just saw your comment on the last thread. I agree with what you are saying. I also believe that while Holy Spirit guided the early bible writers, but like you said, it is not the same as God holding someones hand and writing down his thoughts. Every man, including the bible writers will because they are human, write from the perspective of their own personal views and beliefs. So we have to take it for what it is worth. Like you said, not every coma, was added by God.
 
Amazing1914
Amazing1914 10 years ago

Greek Orthodox View of the Bible:
Source: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8038.asp
"Much has been said regarding the Divine authorship and inspiration of the Bible (theopneustia). Various theories have been expressed throughout the centuries concerning the way in which the Bible is the work of the Holy Spirit. Philo of Alexandria is the main exponent of the so-called "mechanical theory" of understanding the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. According to Philo, the authors of the Bible were in a condition of "possession" by the Spirit of God, who was just using these authors as blind instruments. A better view is the so-called "dynamic view" of the cooperation between man and the Holy Spirit in the case of the Bible. In any case of "synergy" (cooperation) between God and man, God leads, and man follows; God works, and man accepts God's work in him, as God's coworker in subordination to Him. So it is with divine inspiration in the case of the Bible: the Holy Spirit inspires, and the sacred author follows the Holy Spirit's injunctions, utilizing his own human and imperfect ways to express the perfect message and doctrine of the Holy Spirit.
"In this sense, we can understand possible imperfections in the books of the Bible, since they are the result of the cooperation between the all-perfect and perfecting Divine Author, the Spirit, and the imperfect human author. Biblical textual criticism is completely normal and acceptable by the Orthodox, since they see the Bible in this light. Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit.
Jim Whitney
 
LaCatolica
LaCatolica 10 years ago

Amazing..(you're truly Amazing)
I really enjoyed reading the info. you posted here. It's phenomenal and well researched. I agree 110%...not only b/c I'm Catholic, but b/c it makes so much more sense. This is what I've been telling my husband all this time...that before the Bible became what we read today it went through a lot of revision and thus, much changed/altered and things were added/removed...who knows??
I love it when things like this get posted b/c I print it and learn it so that I can attack my JW in-laws if they ever come at me with ther crap!
Thanks so very much!!!!!!!!!!!
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 10 years ago




LaCatolica says:
I love it when things like this get posted b/c I print it and learn it so that I can attack my JW in-laws if they ever come at me with ther crap  Thats the spirit! (just kidding) LOL
 
greendawn
greendawn 10 years ago

The JW dependence on the Bible goes to ridiculous extremes as when you see them opening the Bible every time they try to prove a point, and they usually misinterpret it. That difference in approach to the Bible between the JWs and the catholic/orthodox has a lot to tell us about why the JWs are so dangerously different and usually people don't look at these subtle things. Amazing 1914 I understand you were raised as a catholic but you now incline more towards the Orthodox though I don't think there is much difference between the two.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 10 years ago

Great post. I find it amazing how people who claim that every single word in the Bible is a divine revelation from God eventually resort to all sorts of strange reasonings to make their points clear. You see things just like I do. Thanks for the post.
 
Amazing1914
Amazing1914 10 years ago

Greendawn,
Amazing 1914 I understand you were raised as a catholic but you now incline more towards the Orthodox though I don't think there is much difference between the two.
Well, they are the same faith. The differences, though, are important to me. The two churches started spliting about the time that the Roman Empire started splitting. Travel and communication were slow enough that East and West did become affected by the culture and political circumstances of the times. I believe had Jesus come in our day, that problem would have been mitigated, but then again, we may have other problems that would be worse.
The big differences for me are that Orthodox Priests can be married. This used to be the practice in the Roman church. Before the schism in 1054, the entire Catholic Church worked out matters of doctrine by Ecumenical Councils. All Bishops were considered equal and should be heard if they want to speak. The Bishop of Rome was considered the first among equals, and the chairman so to speak. But he was not a monarch that he is today. The Orthodox also stay out of most personal issues of conscience, such as birth control, etc. Although they are against abortion the same as Rome.
What I did not know until recently is that the Apostles went forth and set up churches where they arrived as a main center of operations. These first churches became known as Holy Sees because of being founded by an Apostle. e.g. St. Peter founded Antioch, Syria, St. Mark founded Alexandria, Egypt, St. Andrew (St. Peter's brother) founded what is known today as Constantinople (Istanbul), Turkey. St. Peter eventually moved on to Rome, but did not found Rome. Each Holy See has maintained meticulus records of Apostolic succession for nearly 2,000 years. They each report to the others as to who the next successor is so that the Church could remain aware of itself, and never lose touch with history. (Prior to this information, I used to believe that Rome was the only Holy See, and the only one with Apostolic succession.
What is strange is that in spite of the schism of nearly 1,000 years ago, both East and West have evolved in almost identical manner. When I attend a Greek Orthodox mass, it is just like being in a Catholic Church, because it is Catholic. Prior to the schism, the two church had long been almost out of communication for all sorts of reasons. In 1965, they mutually annulled their respective ex-communications of each other, and are in essence reunited, excect that the East has not agreed to the Papal Monarchy. Also, there is a small issue about the Holy Spirit and the Trinity, but I believe that it can be worked out. Upon full reunification, the East will still allow married priests. The West will not. However, I do not see such reunificaton to happen very soon.
I foudnt that the Greek Orthodox has a closer connection, and in many ways more closely resemble, the first century Christians. Though, there is no church today that is a duplicate. As I have read and studied the early Church Fathers, I find that their beliefs and practices resemble both Rome and Constantinople, except that they seem closer to the East.
Another good reason for me to affiliate with the Greek Orthodox for now is that they have Greek classes, and I thought it would be great to learn Greek from Greeks.  I want to be able to read the Greek Septuagint and early Greek manuscripts of the Bible for myself.
Jim Whitney
 
Carmel
Carmel 10 years ago

Jim, good post! Just to add one additonal spin from another perspective. Paul being the "educated" amongst the apostles, may well have been aware of other religions of the world and not only limited to the ancient Hebrew text. Hence, "all scripture is inspired" may have had a much broader application than simply authenticating the Old Testament. Ancient Bhuddist, Hindu and Zoroastrian scripture may well have been included in his remark.
carmel
 
sass_my_frass
sass_my_frass 10 years ago

Hey thanks for this!
 
z
z 10 years ago

The link below will give you good info about Biblical History
http://www.hum.huji.ac.il/dinur/Internetresources/historyresources/biblical_studies.htm

Z
 
Mattica
Mattica 10 years ago

I am so glad I found this board, the last 6 months or so I have become fascinated with biblical history, and church history. First as I am sure all of you are aware of the reason why the JW's came up with their own translation. To correct the errors the early translators made. When I was growing up I was only allowed to read from the NWT, there were no other bibles in our house. When I got into my teenage years and started looking into matters of doubt that were creeping into me I started looking at other bibles, mostly the KJV. The brothers saw me slipping away and and elder and m.s. started holding bible studies with me and strongly cautioned me not to use other bibles with study material. After being out for a couple of years and studying again I found it very hard to use the NWT, I found the NASB and even the KJV to be more easy to read, and again was told not to use anything other than the NWT. That's when I noticed when I would go to meetings, every single witness was using one bible. Twilight zone moment. Anywho I am almost done reading a book called The Other Bible. It is a compilation of the Gnostic Gospels, Dead Sea Scrolls, Visionary Wisdom Text, Christian Apocrypha, Jewish Pseudepigrapha, and the Kabbalah. And I have read a lot of similarities between the standard bible and most of these rejected text, and I thought of 2 Tim. 3:16 and asked my Lutheren Pastor if that scripture just applied to the 66 books of the cannon, and he pretty much said yes. I showed him what I have read so far and he said those other books weren't accepted into the cannon because they did not fully expound or conform to the message of salavation that Jesus offered. Which makes sense to me, but I myself am starting to believe that scripture meant not just the 66 books of the cannon, but others as well. Even the Infancy Gospels, (great reading!)
So has anyone else read any of what I have, and what are your thoughts on other books written on the existence of God, nature, the universe, etc. The gnostic writers were very creative and poetic, and some even say they have the words of Adam himself handed down through generations. OH I could go on and on but I gotta get my daughter to school.
Matt
 
willyloman
willyloman 10 years ago

The Christian faith is built far more upon tradition and Church evolution than upon Biblical developments. This is a point that completely escapes and ultimately undermines the credibility of such groups as Jehovah's Witnesses who think that they have restored "truth" but in fact have done nothing more than created a fiction.
Jim: Really profound! Thanks for sharing.
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago

Try not to forget..but the Orthodox church(catholic) was the first established church as the Eastern Orthodox catholic church.......
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago

Try not to forget..but the Orthodox church(catholic) was the first established church as the Eastern Orthodox catholic church.......
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 10 years ago

And I have read a lot of similarities between the standard bible and most of these rejected text, and I thought of 2 Tim. 3:16 and asked my Lutheren Pastor if that scripture just applied to the 66 books of the cannon, and he pretty much said yes.
I might first point out that despite the Lutheran belief in sola scriptura, the notion that Scripture only corresponds to these 66 books which were put together into an anthology after they were written is nowhere taught in the Bible itself. This doctrine is, for want of a better word, unbiblical. Nowhere do these books list what books are scripture and what are not; neither do they spell out in an objective way how Scripture can be distinguished from non-Scripture. The process of canonization occurred sometime after the books themselves were written. The books of the Apocrypha are canonical for the Catholic Church, tho distinguished in a "second canon" (deuterocanon) due to Jerome's acceptance of the Hebrew canon as fully authoritative. The early Church Fathers, even Jerome himself, recognized that there could be inspired Scripture outside of the official canon, but this distinction became lost in Protestantism which rejected the deuterocanonicals as a whole (because these books gave scriptural support to certain Catholic beliefs and practices) and conflated canon = Scripture = inspired = authoritative, when earlier Christians had more finer distinctions (i.e. Scripture that is inspired but not canonical). Moreover, different churches (Roman Catholic, Lutheran/Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Slavonic, Armenian, Nestorian, Ethiopic) have different canons; the dominant canon is far from the only one, and you may be surprised to learn what is in other Christian canons.
The NT itself shows evidence of an open canon, or a different idea of what constitutes inspired Scripture than what your pastor might have. Most of the letter of Jude alludes to 1 Enoch in some fashion and Jude 14-15 directly quotes 1 Enoch 1:9 as inspired "prophecy" (see my post for more details). Jude 9 also alludes to a story from the conclusion of the Assumption of Moses, as recognized by a number of Church Fathers. John 7:38 and 1 Corinthians 2:9 quote as "Scripture" statements that are not found in the OT, and the "Scripture" quoted in James 4:5 may well be a passage from the lost Book of Eldad and Modad (see my post for a full discussion of the evidence). Even closer to home, just a few verses before 2 Timothy 3:16, the author alludes to "Jannes and Jambres who defied Moses" (v. 8). These individuals appear nowhere in the OT, but the first century AD Book of Jannes and Jambres describes just the sort of thing alluded to in 2 Timothy 3:8, so one wonders about what the author of 2 Timothy thought of as "Scripture" since he finds such a story "profitable for teaching and for reproving" (2 Timothy 3:16), tho he does not directly quote the book itself.
 

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History of the Bible - JWs will not like this
by Amazing1914 10 years ago 20 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing1914
Amazing1914 10 years ago

Leolaia,
Thanks for an excellent post on scriptures outside the accepted cannon. I found it interesting too that the King James used to have all of the books found in the Douay, but changed this in their second publication. I will visit your post linked in your comments. Thanks again,
Jim Whitney
 

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Topic Summary
historically, the bible is a secondary support for christians and jews.
i was raised roman catholic, and our tradition and practices included the bible, but it was not a key centerpiece of our faith.
the jewish side of my family likewise have a rich history of tradition and faith that is lived, and not pinned down to every word in the bible.



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Anyone a Practicing Catholic?
by lovelylil2 5 years ago 13 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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lovelylil2
lovelylil2 5 years ago

If so, would you mind helping me gain some information on Catholic Beliefs. I left Roman Catholicism when I was a teen but have been researching the beliefs and practices of all the major churches and this is the one I am working on now. There is a lot of conflicting information out there both for and against the church, as with all religions I guess. And I admit I don't have a very good knowlege of the Catholic faith, so I thought I would go to the source and "speak" with those who are of this faith group.
I have a few Q's I would like to ask practicing Catholics such as;
What is the difference between "regular" Catholics and Roman Catholics?
Is calling the Pope "holy father" a requirement for becoming a Catholic or can you view him as just the head of the Catholic church?
Can adults convert to Catholisim?
what are the main doctrines of the Catholic faith?
As JW's we were taught that Catholics do not use the bible or know how to use it, is this true according to your observation?
Does anyone know of a website that can answer these Q's, also I welcome personal comments from practicing catholics. This is purely for research and I have no intention of putting down the Catholic church or anyone's beliefs. Do not want to debate the validity of the beliefs or anything like that. This is just for my informational purpose and curiosity.
I've been studying all the churches for a few years now and am taking biblical studies courses. Thanks in advance for your help. Peace, Lilly
P.S. Any good books out there on the practices of the Catholic church and their origins?
 
blondie
blondie 5 years ago

Add this:
What does a practicing Catholic have to do to become a nonpracticing Catholic?
What does a Catholic have to do to be excommunicated? Are they shunned?
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 5 years ago

Try this forum
http://www.catholicxjw.com/
 
blondie
blondie 5 years ago

black sheep, would that reflect the personal answer from a Catholic posting here or one in our area?
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 5 years ago

I don't think there is a whole lot of Catholics currently posting here. I can only think of St Ann. There was an ordained priest here when I first joined, but I haven't seen him around for years. He also posted at catholicxjw.com
It'll be interesting to see how many put their hands up.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 5 years ago

There are other types of catholics besides Roman Catholics.
I was a RC but I am now far close to "old" catholic than RC.
I don't accept the authority or subscribe to the doctrine of the Pope being infalliable so I can't be a RC, though the majority of RC I know don't do those things either.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 5 years ago

Anyone a Practicing Catholic?
*raises hand*
What is the difference between "regular" Catholics and Roman Catholics?
There are several catholic churches. The Latin Rite Church is Roman catholic. There are also other self-governing catholic churches that are in full communion with one another and the Roman church, all are Catholic, even if the liturgy and governance is different among them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches
Is calling the Pope "holy father" a requirement for becoming a Catholic or can you view him as just the head of the Catholic church?
It is not a requirement.
Can adults convert to Catholisim?
Yes. I did.
what are the main doctrines of the Catholic faith?
There is one God, the Father, who created everything.
There is one saviour, Jesus Christ the Son of God, through whom all things were created.
Jesus came down from heaven, and born of the Virgin Mary in human form.
He was crucified and died. He rose on the third day and ascended to heaven.
Jesus will come again at the end of history and his kingdom will be eternal.
The dead will be resurrected.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and is worshipped as God along with the Father and the Son.
There is one body of Christ, founded by Jesus. This is the Church.
There is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
As JW's we were taught that Catholics do not use the bible or know how to use it, is this true according to your observation?
I know some Catholics that are very knowledgable about the Bible. However, I know many that are not. A typical JW will be much better at using the Bible, even though they misinterpret it.
Does anyone know of a website that can answer these Q's, also I welcome personal comments from practicing catholics. This is purely for research and I have no intention of putting down the Catholic church or anyone's beliefs. Do not want to debate the validity of the beliefs or anything like that. This is just for my informational purpose and curiosity.
http://www.catholicxjw.com/
http://www.catholic.com/
http://forums.catholic.com/
BTS
 
Libelle
Libelle 5 years ago

Not a practicing Catholic, but "recovering" much of my family still is. I went to Catholic School from K-7th grade - complete with plaid uniform jumper and all...
What is the difference between "regular" Catholics and Roman Catholics?
Nothing. Catholic is Catholic, Roman Catholic is usually shortened to Catholic by most people. There are folks who are more traditional (as in women needing to wear head coverings, masses still in Latin, and priest facing the away from the congregation - lots of other Pre-Vatican II stuff), I think they have a specific name, but I cannot remember it.

Is calling the Pope "holy father" a requirement for becoming a Catholic or can you view him as just the head of the Catholic church?
Well that's what the RCC calls him. The individual may or may not call him that, but it expected that you will believe him to be so.
Can adults convert to Catholisim?
Yeap- look up RCIA those are the classes one takes to become Catholic. WHile you're studying you're called a catechumen (we always jokes that it was like you're subhuman haha) and escorted from mass before the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
what are the main doctrines of the Catholic faith?
That's awfully long to put in one post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_doctrine
As JW's we were taught that Catholics do not use the bible or know how to use it, is this true according to your observation?
Well, JW's don't think anyone but them know/use the bible. RC's think they know the bible properly too. The masses have readings from the bible. First reading is from the OT, Second from a non-gospel NT (usually Paul) and the Gospel reading, well that's self explanatory. You can read the bible all you want, too. In Catholic school we had classes that centered on this story or that.
Does anyone know of a website that can answer these Q's, also I welcome personal comments from practicing catholics. This is purely for research and I have no intention of putting down the Catholic church or anyone's beliefs. Do not want to debate the validity of the beliefs or anything like that. This is just for my informational purpose and curiosity.
I"m sure there's a website, but I don't know it. I used to love reading about the saints as a kid - made "being holy" seem more humanly achievable - plus, I've always loved a good story.

From Blondie:
What does a practicing Catholic have to do to become a nonpracticing Catholic?
Just stop going really. I mean I guess I'm officially a non-practicing Catholic. I never took my name off any records. ANd well you never forget the stand-sit-kneel, responses and songs - that gets ingrained into you. I've been to mass about 6 times in the past 10 years, and I still remember every bit. THat part never leaves you. ha

What does a Catholic have to do to be excommunicated? Are they shunned?
I don't know about that, it's not as easy as being disfellowshipped. There some pretty bad behaviors amongst Catholics. Hell my grandparents used to go to horse races with the Monsignor (a priest who's more elevated thanother priest but not bishop). IME The RC is relatively lenient.
 
man in black
man in black 5 years ago

This has helped me out ::

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/
 
lovelylil2
lovelylil2 5 years ago

Just got in from work. I am going to read these posts and respond in a few hours. thanks everyone. Lilly
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 5 years ago

Amazing doesn't post very often now. He started an interesting thread a couple of years ago that scrapped a few of my WT induced illusions about the Catholic Church.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/157743/1/Dispelling-Watchtower-Myths-of-RC-Beliefs
 
lovelylil2
lovelylil2 5 years ago

Thank you so much BTS, You gave me lots of great information.
Also thanks to Libella, Man in Black and Black sheep. I appreciate all the help. I am going to look at all the information more closely tomarrow because I have the day off. Also will visit the websites.
The reason I am especially interested in the Catholic church is my entire family is Catholic and I was raised a Catholic. But, I am realizing fairly recently that I really never fully understood Catholic beliefs and practices. I think its because my parents were not really practicing Catholics.
And of course when you become a witness, you are part of a group that HATEs the Catholic church more than any other churches. Its funny though how many JWs were once Catholic!
I remember Amazing Jim. He tried to convince me that the trinity is biblical and I gave him such a hard time. Funny thing is now a year later, and I am a Trinitarian. I'm sure he would get a good laugh at that one. I guess I just had to come to the conclusion that the trinity is a valid teaching on my own.
Thanks again everyone, peace to all of you, Lilly
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 5 years ago

Lilly, I was raised Catholic and returned to the Church after a long absence. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

What is the difference between "regular" Catholics and Roman Catholics?
The Greek, Russian, and some other Orthodox faiths are also considered Catholic, but do not recognize Vatican leadership nor share Communion with the Roman Catholic Church. Some Eastern Rite churches are in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, with common doctrine and faith but different worship liturgy. This includes the Byzantine Church, among others. There also are "Anglican Ordinate" congregations that have rejoined the Roman Catholic church, while retaining their own bishops and priests, and using worship liturgy based on Anglican practices.
Is calling the Pope "holy father" a requirement for becoming a Catholic or can you view him as just the head of the Catholic church?
It is traditional (with a small "t") to use that term of respect when referring to the successor of St. Peter. Using the phrase "holy father" is not, as far as I know, a matter of doctrine (a doctrinal "Tradition", with a capital "T").
Can adults convert to Catholisim?
Yes. Prospective converts normally go through a series of classes leading to the Rites of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA): Baptism, Eucharist (Holy Communion) and Confirmation. Baptism is not repeated for those who have received any valid Christian baptism: one using water (any amount from a splash on the forehead to total immersion) and using the Trinitarian form of Matthew 28:19. Unlike most Protestant baptisms, Jehovah's Witness baptisms do not use the Trinitarian form, thus the Catholic Church would not consider JW baptism valid.
what are the main doctrines of the Catholic faith?
The short versions are the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. The long version is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the adult version, not the Baltimore Catechism for Children you might remember from elementary school days). Significant differences between Catholic and Protestant doctrines include Apostolic Succession from the Apostles and St. Peter to present-day bishops and the Pope, and Transubstantiation of sacramental bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ (John 6), not mere symbolic emblems.
As JW's we were taught that Catholics do not use the bible or know how to use it, is this true according to your observation?
It varies from person to person. Catholics are taught and encouraged to read the Bible, but aren't forced to, so with people being human some do, some don't, and most are in between. Each Sunday Mass begins with four scripture passages addressing a common theme: in order, a reading from the Old Testament (except Psalms), a selection of Psalms (sung), a reading from the New Testament (other than the Gospels), and finishing with the Gospel reading. Each reading is in context and uninterrupted; commentary is reserved for the homily following the Gospel reading.
The Bible was a required text in the Catholic schools I attended, including a class dedicated to the history of the Bible (Jerome's Vulgate, different vernacular translations, etc.).
"Know how to use it" is a loaded phrase, because different faiths use the Bible in different ways. Catholic teaching is to learn the message of scripture as a whole, not a word-for-word literal interpretation. That is consistent with not being limited to one "official" Bible translation: English-speaking Catholics read the RSV, NRSV, NJB, NAB, the old Douay-Rhiems version, even the KJV (with the deuterocanonical books). "The best Bible translation is one that you will read."
Does anyone know of a website that can answer these Q's, also I welcome personal comments from practicing catholics.
The simplest answer works well: www.catholic.com. The comparison chart at religoustolerance.org is a good introduction, and is relatively unbiased (imo).
For Blondie's additions:
What does a practicing Catholic have to do to become a nonpracticing Catholic?
Just stop going to Mass and receiving the sacraments. There is no JC, no writing a DA letter, no announcement to the congregation. Returning is almost as easy: register with the local parish, repent yor sins, and make a good confession. There's no sitting alone in the back row, no being the congregation pariah nobody wants to talk to, no probation period before being considered a full, worthy member of the congregation. Instead, it's "We're glad that you came back!".
What does a Catholic have to do to be excommunicated?
To be formally excommunicated, quite a lot. It generally involves scandal, publicly presenting oneself as Catholic while also publicly, unrepentingly engaging in gravefully sinful behavior.
Knowingly committing particularly grave sins is considered to be excommunicating yourself, without any formal proceedings. This includes procuring or performing an abortion.
Are they shunned?
No, that is not Catholic teaching. We must not participate in or abet the sinful behavior, but neither is it our place to punish the sinner. We are to lovingly encourage the sinner's reformation. Use the carrot, not the stick: "hate the sin, love the sinner."
 
lovelylil2
lovelylil2 5 years ago

Thanks GL. Peace, Lilly
 

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I prayed and then there was a knock at the door ...
by wannabefree 5 years ago 25 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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wannabefree
wannabefree 5 years ago

... were they Jehovah's Witnesses?
Not in these experiences. Next time a JW shares an experience about God sending a Witness to a door of someone praying, share these experiences with them ....
*************
... i went to our little Bure in front of our house and prayed to heavenly father and asked that if this was the true church and i was to be baptised for him to send back Elder Rigamoto to baptise me. Well it was in November, 2000 when i was coming back from school and i thought to go and pay a visit to the elders so i could meet the new missionary who was to replace Elder Rigamoto. To my surprise when i walked in the house Elder Rigamoto was standing there smiling with no idea that my prayer had just been answered. I was then baptised and i have no regrets and I am also very blessed.
http://www.ldscompanion.org/index.php?op=stories&id=96
**************
The Importance of Missionary Work
Sister Petra G. de Hernandez of Monterrey, Mexico, told her story:
"Nineteen years ago my husband died in an automobile accident. It was then that I felt the need to find God, so that he could help me with my family. My youngest daughter was eleven months old.
"One night, in the midst of my desperation, ... I prayed to the Lord as if I were talking to another person. I asked him to show me the path to take in life. I told him that I knew he existed, but I didn't know where. I asked him to show me how or where to find him. I did it with such faith and desire to find the truth that I shall never forget that prayer.
"The answer to my prayer was not long in coming. One morning two young missionaries knocked on my door and said they were from the Mormon Church and that they brought me a very important message. I had heard about the Mormons, but I had not been the least interested in them. I let them come in and they began the first lesson. As I received the first lesson, I felt that what they were saying was true, and I told them I wanted to be baptized with my family. ...
"Since the day we accepted the gospel our lives have changed completely. I was now sure that God hears our prayers. ...
"I can say with assurance that we are a united family due to the gospel and to those two missionaries who knocked on my door fifteen years ago.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&nav=0&sourceId=a6f17befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD
**********
In that 5 month time period from when I prayed to the Lord to send me to a church that was accurate to His teachings.....the only people that came to talk to me about God was an ex-Roman Catholic Christian woman and her ex-Roman Catholic dad that had become a Pastor. In that 5 month time period from when I prayed to God up until the day I got saved, no Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses came knocking on my door and they would always come to my house on Saturdays. As soon as I got saved though, guess who came back knocking on my door again....yup the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses...lol. Then the Lord wanted me to talk to them and tell them His true Gospel and my testimony too. In the 5 month period also from right after I prayed that prayer until the day I got saved, I just want to add that unfortunately no Roman Catholic's came to talk with me at all either in that time period. Only Christian Born Again believers, followers of Jesus Christ.
http://2praisegod.com/testimony/2011/08/roman-catholic-to-christianity-conversion/
***********
I Prayed You Would Come
Artur Arakelyan
I am a Global Mission pioneer. I was selling books door-to-door in a city in Armenia. I knocked on one door in an apartment house, and a woman answered. I introduced myself and my work. She welcomed me in and listened as I told her about the books.
She looked up with tears in her eyes and said, "Just before you came to my door, I was praying that God would send someone to help me know more about God and the Bible. I believe God sent you." The woman, Alvart, said that her 11-year-old daughter had been attending a Protestant church and often told her things she was learning about God. Although Alvart wasn't attending the church, her daughter's comments created a hunger to know more.
Then she told how one day three months earlier she had put her 2-year-old son to sleep in his stroller near the bedroom window and went about her housework. Her daughter, Anna, was playing outside in the apartment courtyard. The baby awoke and climbed from the stroller onto the windowsill and fell out the window from their ninth-floor apartment. A passerby saw the child falling and screamed. Anna looked up to see her baby brother falling toward her. "Dear Jesus, help me!" she prayed, and instinctively she held out her arms. The baby fell into her arms, and both children tumbled to the ground. Amazingly neither child was hurt.
As Alvart recalled the story, tears welled in her eyes. "At first I thought that God was punishing me for my sins," she said. "But when I realized that God had used my daughter church, to save her brother. Then I realized that God was trying to help me. That's when I began praying to know more about God."
She couldn't afford to buy the books she wanted, so I gave her a small book and offered to study the Bible with her. She gladly accepted. She didn't have a Bible, so I gave her one. She is ready for baptism.
When I first went to this town we had not even one Adventist there. Now we have a group of 10 people who are meeting in a home every Sabbath and studying the Bible. Another 20 or so are interested to know more but haven't committed themselves to Bible studies yet. They're from all walks of life-lawyers, doctors, taxi drivers, and homemakers. I had met them by working as a literature evangelist.
I praise God that our Sabbath School mission offerings help support the work of Global Mission, one way to tell the world that Jesus loves them.
http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/11c/less03.html#is
***********
don't want to say that a young and energetic couple - without jobs - would actually be enjoying the quiet of a day at home - since both would clearly welcome employment. But Keithroy and Topeka Charles were at peace with their situation; they pray daily and radiate a confidence that God will provide. On the morning of April 14 they had discussed how wonderful it would be if their frequent online sweepstakes entries in the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes would bear fruit - in the form of a Big Check.
Keithroy, a St. Kitts native, and Topeka, a native Louisianan, were sitting down to a midday meal in their Baton Rouge, LA, apartment when there was an interruptive knock on the door. Who could that be? Their five-year old boy was not due home from school for over an hour, and they were not expecting anyone else - unless ...!! Could this be their morning prayers answered?
Topeka glanced out the window and thought she saw some colorful balloons passing by. Could it be?!?! She and Keithroy ran to the door, pulled it open, then faced the scene they had seen countless times on TV. But this time it was at THEIR front door: the PCH Prize Patrol stood smiling right in front of them - with a video-cameraman, a TV news reporter, bouquets of roses and balloons, champagne, and a Big Check - for $10,000.00!
http://blog.pch.com/blog/2011/04/25/prayers-answered-with-a-knock-at-the-door/
************
As I was feeling more than sad about the whole thing, I prayed what I pray when I am overwhelmed by the numbers and pain in our villages... And then there was a knock at the door. Sarah went to answer it, and I heard the name Ida. It started slowly to come together in my mind. The Lord heard my prayer before I even prayed it. He sent me a Landcruiser with a doctor and two nurses from the mission hospital at Ilembula which is about 5 hours away. They were here to see Ida's daughters who are studying here at our school, but they also came to my door to see if there were any sick people that I might want them to see!!!! They could help me by traveling around with me to for two hours before they had to leave.
http://www.villageschools.org/blogs/susan/2010/august/28/and-then-there-was-a-knock-at-the-door
**********
Wessel says he was a child born from an unwanted pregnancy who suffered verbal abuse from his mother, who had mental illness. He was sexually molested, which led him to drinking, drugs, theft and violence, he said. On his way to end his life, he was stopped by a neighborhood pastor who was going door to door inviting young people to attend his church. Believing that knock on the door was more than a coincidence, Wessel decided to give life another chance.
http://www.heritage.com/articles/2011/06/29/life/doc4e03c4b053be1851476849.txt
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 5 years ago

Please share similar experiences that can be documented.
 
serein
serein 5 years ago

my life wasnt going very well either and i sat down and prayed and with in a few weeks not same day i was in a relationship with a jws son and it just went from there,i was going catholic church at the time, which coincidently id prayed a few years befor and ended up there so masybe praying to god does get an answer and aslong as u folow the faith path and ur life changes for the better and u learn about him and what ever it dont matter wich religion brought it to you,i duno,
 
Norcal_Sun
Norcal_Sun 5 years ago

Thank you for this post! My mom is a Dub who had that exact experience.. I need to tell her that its NOT unique to the witnesses...
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 5 years ago

In the experiences I posted, in response to prayers God sent Mormons, Adventists, misc. Protestants, and Publishers Clearing House ... or was it coincidence? Of course a JW will have to claim that these were coincidental, and while wanting to hold on to the thought that Jehovah sent JW's in answer to the prayers of their experiences, will at least have to experience an inner turmoil of the possibility that theirs too were a result of coincidence.
 
stillin
stillin 5 years ago

I like the one about the big, bad mugger/rapist/etc who didn't mug/rape/purse-snatch the two pioneer sisters because of the big guy that was with them....surprise! it must have been an angel!
 
Open mind
Open mind 5 years ago

JW's claim to spend around 1 Billion hours a year banging on doors, often unannounced.
Even if the actual figure is only a couple hundred million hours, it is a STATISTICAL CERTAINTY that the JWs, (or UPS Drivers or any other door-to-door group) will interrupt at least a few suicide attempts annually.
(Not to mention also interrupting quite a few sessions of hot & heavy lovemaking, televised sporting events, holiday celebrations, etc.)

om
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 5 years ago

Great post.
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 5 years ago

More "Mormon" experiences from http://www.ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/7258
*********
I Dreamed Three Angels Would Come to My Door with the Truth
Sister Chantelle Bagley
One day as we drove by several homes we had not yet tracted, Sister Kim said, "I think we need to go back and knock on those doors!" Sister Bertucci and I said, "Okay if you feel it's right."
... got out and started knocking. We soon knocked on Sang Hai's door and waited to see if anyone would answer.
Much to our surprise, she let us right in like she was expecting us! We then shared something with her that really caught her attention. For some reason, we said: "God wants us to build up his kingdom here on the earth and the Restoration is the way." This is not a phrase we typically use! She excitedly replied that she also wanted to build up God's kingdom! She did everything we asked of her during the lessons and was baptized two weeks later.
She explained that before we met her she had prayed several times to know how she could help build up the Kingdom of God. ...
She told us that the night before we knocked on her door, she had sincerely prayed for guidance on what God wanted her to do and then she fell asleep. That night she had a dream where she was told that three angels would soon come and knock on her door and that she needed to let them in and listen to what they taught because they would teach her the truth. She told us that normally she never answers the door since she lives alone, but because of her dream the night before, she knew that she needed to hear our message.
When she saw that there were three of us at the door, she knew it was an answer to her prayers, so she anxiously let us inside. After that she always called us her three angels. It is amazing how Heavenly Father leads his missionaries to those who are praying for his help.
********
Where Did You Find That Copy of the Book of Mormon?
Elder Kelsey G. Carter
The next day we set out to go tracting. We got in the car and we offered up a prayer. Elder Lee was precise with his prayer as he asked the Lord to guide us to someone who was seeking for the truth. Not quite sure where we would end up, we found ourselves near some townhomes.
I took off towards the first door then noticed that I was alone so I turned back to the car to see Elder Lee searching for something in the back seat of our car. I assumed he was just looking for his tracting Bible, but when he shut the door and stood up, he had a nice clean copy of the Book of Mormon in his hand. I immediately asked him, "Where on Earth did you find that?" He replied that he felt like he needed to look just one more time for something to hand out, and it was on the back seat. I was shocked because I knew there was not anything on that back seat. We had cleaned it spotless and there was not the slightest sign of any supplies or books!!
At the fifth home a huge guy came to the door. I was a little nervous, but before I even had time to introduce ourselves he invited us to come in. We went inside and found that he was a Marine and had been deployed twice in the past 18 months to Afghanistan. We were amazed to find that during his 2 deployments, he had read the entire Bible from cover to cover but he had never even heard of the Book of Mormon.
He explained that he was not usually home at this time of day since he works at the Marine base. He was very sincere and we proceeded to share the message of the Restoration and the Book of Mormon with him. The spirit was strong and he humbly agreed to read our material. We left him that copy of the Book of Mormon that just appeared on our back seat, and told him to read and pray about it and God would answer his questions. Later we met his awesome wife Britney and found that she was just as interested as her husband Mark. They were both baptized on Dec 4th. I know that God is aware of all of his children and that He led us to Mark and provided the Book.
***********
Bill's Prayer is Quickly Answered
By Elder Hayden L. Carnline
We had a really good experience yesterday. We were out tracting when we both suddenly had a strong thought that we should go and visit a certain member in our area. His name is Bill Ward and I think he is about 70. When we got close to his home we could see him on his front porch and next to him there was a big pile of boxes.
As we got up closer we could see that they were boxes full of frozen a turkeys from the store, and he was taking them one by one and putting them in storage freezers he keeps out back. We asked him if we could help him and he said absolutely.
..... he thanked us and then he started to get emotional and he told us that as he was moving the boxes all by himself he started to lose strength and his bad knee started to give him a lot of pain, so he stopped and prayed and asked Heavenly Father to please send someone to help with the heavy lifting. We then showed up. I know that God does answer prayers and that he is mindful of each one of us, and that God often works through other people to answer prayers.
**********
the following is fromhttp://www.ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/7592?ac=1
While talking on a doorstep one afternoon, our cell phone rang and my companion Elder Brunstad went to the sidewalk to speak on the phone to a family who needed some service as soon as we were available. I told Elder Brunstad that we would go help them after we had finished the street we were on; with only three doors left I thought we had time to finish. But as we were about to knock on the next door, the Spirit whispered that we needed to leave right then. We left and drove to help the family who called, expecting a miracle to be waiting for us when we arrived at their house. We got there, moved some furniture, and shared a scripture, but nothing out of the ordinary occured.
For two weeks I tried to return to finish tracting the street, but we never quite had time to go back there. Finally we returned to the doorstep where the Spirit had previously directed us to leave and we knocked. A woman came to the door, looked at us, and then started to cry. "Mormons? Are the Mormon missionaries really knocking on my door today?" she asked as she looked heavenward.
After a few questions Piedad McKee went on to explain how several years previously she had experienced an unusual dream at her home in Florida. In her dream she saw two young men, dressed in white shirts, knocking on her door and bringing her happiness. When she awoke from her dream she described it to her husband. He told her it must be the Mormon missionaries. He knew just enough about the Church to know how to recognize the missionaries! She had never heard of the Mormons before. Several weeks later however, her husband tragically died. A few days after his funeral, the dream of two young men actually materialized when two missionaries knocked on her door. She invited them into her home and they taught her about the Plan of Salvation and the Restored Gospel. After investigating for a time she moved to Virginia and lost contact with the Church.
She then told us with tears in her eyes that today was her deceased husband's birthday! It was the first time she had not gone to work in many months because she was simply too sad to leave home today! "God and my husband sent you here for my family again didn't they?" After reviewing in my mind the events of the past two weeks, I looked her in the eye and with a surety could say, "Yes, they did." If we had finished tracting the street as previously planned, we would have missed her. It may have been years before missionaries could find her again in such a remote area combined with her work schedule.
************
the following is fromhttp://www.ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/7603?ac=1
I stopped and leaned on a gate into a field and was pondering and I said out loud, "Why don't I feel anything when I am in that church?" I heard a voice say, "I don't want you to go to that church." I felt no fear at the voice and finished my walk home. I did not go to the church again (which caused me problems where I worked at the local school. The supervisor was the bell ringer at that church. She got pretty mad at me for not coming!)
A couple of weeks went by and I had taken my boys to school, returned home and taken out the vacuum cleaner. I sat down thinking, "What can I do about a church?" Immediately there was a knock on the door (which I would not have heard had I been busy vaccuuming). Two young men stood there on the balcony (we lived in a block of flats). One said, "We have a brief message about Jesus Christ." I saw they had this bright light around them and I said, "I know, I've been waiting for you. You have come to bring me the truth. Please come in." I was not at all in the habit of inviting strangers into my home! But these two were definitely different!
*************
http://www.ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/7487?ac=1
A huge snow storm moved in over North Virginia leaving tons of snow everywhere. ...
That afternoon Elder Perkins, Elder Henrie, Elder Barraza, Elder Kirkham and I went out to help people remove the snow from on top of and around their cars. We also hoped to find someone to teach in all of our areas. ...
We eventually decided to drive home for dinner and dry off. ... Within minutes we passed a lady who stood barely 5 feet tall trying to remove snow around her car all by herself. We were so exhausted that we just drove by her without stopping.
Suddenly we all felt the spirit testify to us that we needed to stop, and go back and help now. So we did! We turned around and stopped in front of her home. All five of us got out and we started shoveling and talking to her.
She relayed her story to us ...
She had been suffering from depression and was wondering whether God was really there and if he knew about her needs. ... So she prayed and asked for help in her life.
Following her plea to know if God existed and if he could help her, she dressed in her warmest snow clothes and went out to remove the snow off her car and driveway so she could go to work. After being outside for less than five minutes, our car load of missionaries drove up to her house with shovels all ready to help her physically with her car and spiritually to help answer her questions.
 
life is to short
life is to short 5 years ago

Great thread I remember one time just about three years ago an elder telling me that we can know for sure we are in the true religion because of all the experiences of divine intervention from Jehovah sending his angles ahead of us.
I remember at the time thinking I bet that we are not the only church who claims this but I was too afraid of checking the internet at the time.
I wonder what he would say about the Mormons and the Advents, etc all claiming the same thing as I just knew that others felt that God was using them also like you just pointed out.
So thanks for the great thread and finding all of these examples.
LITS
 
Robdar
Robdar 5 years ago

Well, this is weird but about 10 years after I left the JW's, I prayed for God to guide me to "the truth." Still thinking, of course, that there might be one true religion. Not 15 minutes later, a JW knocked at my door. It scared the bejeebers out of me and I sent her on her way. After she left, I asked God, "WTF???"
I finally decided that God has a delicious sense of humor.
 
Rocky_Girl
Rocky_Girl 5 years ago

LOL @Robdar

I prayed for guidance when I left the RCC after a year - that was my first attempt to move on from the JWs - and the next day I received a package from my great aunt with some things that my grandmother left me. Inside, I found a mezuzah, kiddish cups, a challah cover and recipe, and photos of my great X 5 grandmother.
Now I am an agnostic (I don't believe that God, if He/She is up there, sends random people or packages to us when we pray) But, after studying Judaism, I feel more comfortable with my non-christian status. So some good came out of it...
 
Robdar
Robdar 5 years ago

Wow, Rocky. I find it very interesting that you received those gifts from your bubbe. I totally agree that studying Judaism makes a person more comfortable with being non christian.
I converted to Judaism. And although I do not participate in the holidays, I find their philosophy of life to be quite refreshing. The religion doesn't even mind it when I am feeling rather agnostic--which seems to come and go with me.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 5 years ago

By Hector!
It's an open market out there. The gods are sitting around waiting for prayers to answer.
Incoming prayer: 'Grovel grovel.....oh, god send someone blah blah..!'
Odin: 'Oi, Jehovah. It's your turn to answer the door. Elohim did it last. It's my turn Thursday!'
Jehovah: 'OK. ....but why do I get all the weirdos? I'm still regretting making Fred Franz my representative on earth. A right mess that idiot made.......sent him to Hell...........that was a shock to him'
Odin: 'That's the way the cookie crumbles Mr J!'
Vishnu and Allah laugh.
 
bigmac
bigmac 5 years ago

many years ago i prayed for a bigger penis

now ive got a 9 inch tall man playing a piano.
 
wobble
wobble 5 years ago

Big Mac, God needs to visit The Hearing Centre, they do good digital hearing aids.
Which made me think, the one element that we cannot know for sure is, how many people pray, and get no result ? No answer ?
I bet it is far far more than those who get any kind of answer.
 
worried
worried 5 years ago

I had kinda the same story once.. Me and my wife talked about whether our landlord had ordered the plumber.. The doorbell rang 30 seconds later, and guess who stood there..
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 5 years ago

And the JWs will reply that Satan makes himself an angel of light to trick these poor people into false religion.
Convinced as they are that they are truly unique...
oz
 
dm6
dm6 5 years ago

You Reap what you sow in life.
If you pray to God to come into a lot of money and your claiming state benefits and not working whilst you are able to, dont expect any outcome.
If you pray to God for help and guidance in times of distress calling upon him for help, there is not a prayer that goes unanswered.
God is everywhere, in all of us, around all of us.
What is truth? The JWs? The Catholics? The Protestants? The Muslims? The Hindus?
God is everywhere, with the catholics, with the JWs, with the Muslims, with the athiests.
The Jehovahs Witnesses are so fixated on "truth" and that they are the only ones who have it. I feel like shaking them and telling them to wake up! God is everywhere no matter you think.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 5 years ago

There are just too many different experiences to post, so here is a link if you care to take a look.
When I first started waking up about my JW faith, experiences of answered prayers and preaching were things that caused me to think that possibly I was wrong to question things that didn't make sense, wasn't God's Spirit obviously at work with the Organization?
These experiences make it so obvious that others are doing a preaching work, often more effectively, and so many experiences offered by people of different religions are strikingly similar to JW experiences .... except others also seem to offer more practical assistance to communities.
I don't offer an opinion as to whether or not God is behind every one of these experiences or even any, but it is evident that the JW experiences are not unique in any way unless you exist within the Organizational bubble.
http://www.adventistmission.org/article.php?id=24
 

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I prayed and then there was a knock at the door ...
by wannabefree 5 years ago 25 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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boyzone
boyzone 5 years ago


 
boyzone
boyzone 5 years ago


 
Podobear
Podobear 5 years ago

I was a young member of the Full Gospel Pentecostal church in my home town.. that evening I found myself praying to God and asking Jesus to come in to my life, giving my life to him. I was standing outside the entertainment hall of a holiday camp in Camber Sands in the English county of Kent.
A voice from a young girl stunned me, thankfully she could not see my blushes in the moonlight of the dark sky. We spoke, we went back into the hall to enjoy the evening with her and her family.
At the same time, my Father has been on a voyage of discovery to find his mother's carer during the second world war in London. "Find Grace" his mum said just before she died, "and thank her for me, for all her care..."
Dad was looking for the answers in the early sixties...
Grace turned out to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses... We attended our first circuit assembly in Seven Kings, Ilford.
A girl walked out of the crowd to say hello... she only lived a mile down the road from our home. She was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I studied and was baptized as a JW by my own Father on April 25th 1971.

I thought then... my prayers were answered.
 
outsmartthesystem
outsmartthesystem 5 years ago

Here's a conversation I've had before. Warning....you may want to punch someone after reading it:
Witness - (relates the miraculous experience of someone praying for help to understand the bible when a JW shows up at his door)
Me - (show them proof of other religions claiming the same type of experiences)
Witness - "but our experiences are genuine!". "theirs are nothing more than lies"
Me - "Can you prove this? Do you realize how ignorant this sounds with nothing to back it up?"
Witness - "I can't prove that they lied, but if it did happen like they said....then it had to be Satan directing it....as a facade. He is always changing himself into an angel of light you know. "
Me - "Again, where is the proof for these speculative statements?"
Witness - "You KNOW God wouldn't direct a Babylonish religion. It HAD to be Satan. Or who knows....it could have just been coincidence."
Me - "And it wasn't coincidence when the homeowner was contacted by JWs?"
Witness - "you obviously have a bad attitude"
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 4 years ago

I have been trying to incorporate some of these when having conversations with my wife. Isn't it funny when the experience is about JW's it's God's holy spirit ... anybody else and Satan is working as an angel of light to distract people from the truth?
 
00DAD
00DAD 4 years ago

This sort of "thinking" is so common among JWs: if we do it, it is GOOD and proof of God's Backing; it they do it it is BAD and proof that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light.
You guys might find this thread on a similar subject amusing:

Jehovah, the God of Parking Lots

Check it out!
 

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Topic Summary
i had heard about the mormons, but i had not been the least interested in them.
in that 5 month time period from when i prayed to god up until the day i got saved, no mormons or jehovah's witnesses came knocking on my door and they would always come to my house on saturdays.
anna looked up to see her baby brother falling toward her.



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by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
Tenacious
Has anyone noticed how in the October JW Broadcast, Losch encourages good works towards ALL people?
by Tenacious 5 months ago
Greybeard
The KEY WORD in Isaiah 44:25-26 is "Predictions" and the apostles NEVER made any predictions setting dates.
by Greybeard 3 months ago



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I went to Easter Catholic Mass
by skeeter1 10 years ago 15 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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skeeter1
skeeter1 10 years ago

A friend invited me and my family to Roman Catholic Easter Mass & Egg Hunt. I went. While I’ve been to a Roman Catholic church after casually leaving the JWs, it was my first time attending after being truly out.
I was hedonistic and even took communion. I thought, Christ wanted us to eat the bread to remember him....so, here goes. I jokingly thought, “At Memorial, we just pass the bread plate Here, the Catholics are so nice that they allow people to eat a piece.” The “talk” was a lot about Christ and his resurrection and eternal life. Not much different than the WTS, but the emphasis was on what happened on Easter Sunday, and how that brings our own hope to Heaven. I don't remember any talk about the "dinner."
 I guess I’m just warped. I could not help thinking...gee what a gambit this is. Convince some men and women to give up family, kids, and life to serve “God”. Make them give a few “talks” a week, to attract new followers, so the followers give more money to the church. Not much different than the WTS.
 But, I commend the Catholics. This church operates a soup kitchen. I was not "love bombed".
But, I can't look at a priest without wondering about the children...just as I can't look at an elder without wondering how many sexual abuse families he "sheltered" from help.
I wonder what Jesus would think of his current "Church"
Becoming an agnostic, cynical unbeliever in modern day religions, today.
Skeeter
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

Andy and I went to the Episcopalian Easter Mass/Service. It was breathtakingly gorgeous and stirring. Very happy.
Thursday night, Maundy Thursday, we were asked to spend the entire night at the church (we were paid from the priest's discretionary fund), so that there could be someone there to let in the people who sat one hour vigils in the smaller chapel that represented Gethsemene. "Will you not wait one hour with me?"
Before it all began at 8 PM, we had an agape meal, complete with wine, rituals and toasts, to celebrate the last supper. Then we made a processional into the sanctuary where the priests washed our feet, we had communion and then they stripped the alter of any presence of Jesus, and washed it. Very powerful and done in almost darkness. The priests brought the sanctuary light and the communion hosts into the chapel to signify Christ's presence in the Garden. There were lots of flowers and candle light. It did resemble a garden at night. There was also the feeling you get when someone has died, like when you visit a funeral home at night and stay late. You could feel the history of 158 years of St. Mark's. I could almost see the ladies in their corseted dresses and bustles.
Then, back in the sanctuary, on the 158 year old marble steps to the alter area, I noticed a large wooden cross lying diagnally, adorned with a crown of thorns. It was all very moving and powerful and a contrasted starkly with the amazingly beautiful service today.
I never felt so much joy in the air at any religious service as I did today.
If you've been baptized in any church, you can take communion in the Anglican/Episcopal Church. Try it sometime.
 
Star Moore
Star Moore 10 years ago

Skeeter, I went to Catholic Mass too.. Very nice, really. And liked the fact that everyone could do the bread and wine thang...and the candles were pretty. I really think the church has changed..and have pushed alot of the Mary, saint worship..and pope infallibility..into the background... So not too bad..
 
barry
barry 10 years ago

Dont you people know anything the Catholics dont allow people of other denominations to take communion if you want to partake go to a protestant church and as long as you are baptised its OK.If you dont say the correct words the priest may refuse you .
 
inquirer
inquirer 10 years ago

skeeter1,
The “talk” was a lot about Christ and his resurrection and eternal life. Not much different than the WTS,
___




 
inquirer
inquirer 10 years ago

In regards to Flyinghighernows post....
In some ways, I think the Catholics have that "wow" factor, because they have been around for 1000's of years. All that history, all those saints, chapels, cathederals, posts, bishops, priests... The Vatican is a marvelous looking place.
But then again, they have had an awful history as well. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I could never forgive the Catholic church for forcing people to be Catholic, charging after Martin Luther, not reading their Bibles, etc.
I have mixed feelings regarding the Catholic church and I find Protestants to be hypocrites really.

Man dominates man to his injury, as said in the book of proverbs... I don't need to talk about the harsh treatment of JW's because that gets spoken off all the time, I don't want to beat a dead horse...
Sorry, all the emotion just pours out.
 
kid-A
kid-A 10 years ago

I went for a walk in the forest and read a book at the edge of the river. Thats the only "church" I need.....
Rutherford was right about one thing only "Religion is a snare and a racket"......and that applies to ALL of them.
Everything you need for existence is already within yourself, a fully realized human being does not need the opium of the masses offered by "organized" religion.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

I figure hypocrites need help/church more than anyone.
Barry, you must not be very familiar with the Anglican church. They're actually much fancier than the cafeteria type Catholicservices. The church is also much more liberal and is not a fundamentalist faith. They do not believe the bible, which was decided on by the catholic church, is all inspired or infallible. They made a break from the pope over 500 years ago. Though Henry the VIII made the break, it was Elizabeth the I that established the Anglican Church, she is its mother. A wise lady who came up with ViaMedia. A good median between Catholicism and Protestentism. They are self governed and have a set of checks and balances in place to keep any one man or woman from becoming too powerful.
They are the exact opposite of the WTBTS really. They welcome all. They are very tolerant. The priest at St. Mark's is a lesbian. She's the best priest I've met anywhere though. Spiritual, wise, motherly, kind. She's helped us more in 2 1/2 months than the JW's helped me in many years.
 
greendawn
greendawn 10 years ago

That's one of the major problems of the JWS, they are a very biased and intolerant lot just like the catholics used to be long ago.
 
inquirer
inquirer 10 years ago

greendawn,
!!!!!!!!!!!NEVER FORGIVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 10 years ago

Oops, guess I should not have taken communion as I was never "baptised" Catholic. If I ever convert to Catholism, I guess I'll have to make another confession.
The candles were nice, and there was no mention of the Pope or the Vatican. But, I wonder if that's saved for the hard-core Catholic services (like we JWs saved the hard-core dogmas for last).
Sorry if I'm pessimistic. Think of me as optimist, but with experience.
Skeeter
 
barry
barry 10 years ago

Flying high now, No I wasnt reffering to you going to the Anglicans thats OK as they have open communion.Actually I do know some Anglican people I used to go to there scripture classes at school. Also Im an SDA and occasionally we have had Anglicans taking the Divine service at the church. Thats the main service the SDAs have.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

Barry, what is SDA? Please pardon me, I can be kind of dense and flakey and not figure out the obvious.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

Andy's family are devout Catholics. His mother is the most liberal of them. They do believe the Pope is infallible and for a lot of Catholics (even American Catholics), the Pope holds as much control over them as the gov bod does the org. It's really upsetting to watch his sister's engagement to a good Catholic man. She's basically marrying him because he's a good Catholic and they can raise their kids in the church. It reminds me so much of my reasons for marrying my former husband who is a JW. She's not being true to who she really is. She's controlled by the fear the church instilled in her. She actually left the room recently when her mother expressed her doubts in the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception.
Mary worship is still alive and well in the Catholic Church. They believe that Mary was perfect. They believe she was taken bodily to heaven. They believe she a mediator between Catholics and God.
One thing though is that the Catholic Church has learned that they can't be so harsh anymore with doubters. They'd lose most of their members if still kicked people out like they used to.
They still will not allow priests to marry. For this reason, they lose many priests to the Anglican/Episcopal Church. They lose a significant number of members and clergy to the Anglican/Episcopal church. Mother Val was Catholic. Father Mick at our church was Catholic. Father Mike from St. Andrews, our sister church was a Catholic priest. We have a lot of members who are former Catholics. They leave because of reasons such as the priest sex scandal, birth control, gay rights, etc.
 
LaCatolica
LaCatolica 10 years ago

Hey, hey...Easy on the Catholics...
Cause at least we don't get shunned, we don't get "calls" and we don't get disfellowshipped...
All in all, after seeing a lot of what goes on in JW lives, IF I HAD TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN, I'D BE CATHOLIC ALL OVER AGAIN.
OH, AND WE DON'T WORSHIP MARY, WE VENERATE HER = RESPECT HER FOR BEING THE MOTHER OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST. SOME RELIGIONS DON'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THAT!!!
OK, I'M JUST TRYING TO DEFEND MY RELIGION...BUT YOU KNOW WHAT...I AM FULLY AWARE OF ALL OUR FAULTS TOO AND ALL THE STUFF THAT GOES ON. WE RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE NOT PERFECT...UNLIKE THE JWS (they swear up and down that they are perfect and righteous)
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

I believe God still operates within the Catholic Church, LaCatolica. I don't believe God is exclusive to one faith, Catholic, non Catholic or non-Christian. I think the Catholic form of worship works for many, many Catholics. It doesn't work for some of them, like Andy, because of the power of the Pope and the use of fear to control. A lot of churches and non-Christian faiths use fear to control though. What works for an individual is what works. We look for God in what way fits us personally. The Anglican Church is very similar to the Catholic Church in sacrement and ritual. They don't share everything though.
A note on the word venerate: it can also mean to idolize.
 

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While JW's stagnate, others grow
by Gopher 13 years ago 14 Replies latest 13 years ago   social current
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Gopher
Gopher 13 years ago


http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/3238618.html Mormons, Evangelicals led '90s church growth Published 9/18/2002

The Mormon church and evangelical faiths grew during the past decade while more liberal Protestant denominations shrank, according to a census of U.S. religions conducted by a Roman Catholic research group.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) grew at the fastest rate, with the Pentecostal denomination Assemblies of God following closely behind.
The study, Religious Congregations & Membership in the United States: 2000, was conducted by Glenmary Research Center of Nashville.
The Roman Catholic Church also posted strong growth, although its geographic areas shifted. It remained the largest denomination in the country, growing 16 percent to 62 million. A larger proportion of Catholics now live in the West than in the Midwest; the Catholic population grew faster in the South than it did in the Northeast.
In Minnesota, the rises and declines from 1990 to 2000 in certain faiths generally tracked the trends in the nation, with evangelical religions and the Mormon Church showing percentage gains that far outstripped the state's overall population growth.
And, when grouped, the evangelical faiths have caught up with mainline Protestant religions in Minnesota. That was not the case in 1990.
Among the Minnesota evangelical faiths: Assemblies of God was up 40.5 percent (56,028 adherents in 2000); Baptist General Conference, up 45.8 percent (46,577), and Evangelical Free Church, up 40 percent (28,873).
Among mainline Protestant faiths: Methodist, down 17.4 percent (117,990); United Church of Christ, down 20.4 percent (44,175); Presbyterian, down 15.2 percent (56,579), and Episcopal, down 4.5 percent (30,547).
Even so, both of those groups remain dwarfed in Minnesota compared with the two faith giants: Catholics and Lutherans.
Catholics again reported the greatest number of followers in the state (1.26 million). That is 13.6 percent above the 1990 count, closely shadowing the state's population growth overall.
And as in 1990, Lutherans accounted for the second-largest number of adherents in Minnesota (about 1.1 million in 2000, up slightly vs. 1990). The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America still owns the overwhelming share among all Lutheran denominations, rising 3.7 percent in the past 10 years to 853,448.
Mormons are up 38 percent (20,122) in Minnesota.
The count for Jews in Minnesota is an estimate (42,000) and is 24.3 percent above the 1990 figure. The study put the Jewish population nationwide at 6 million, but the Rev. Dale Jones, a Church of the Nazarene minister who oversaw the survey, said the figure researchers gave Glenmary included Jews who were not members of congregations and therefore was difficult to compare with other denominations.
For Muslims, the state number is estimated at 12,305. Glenmary has not reported a number for Muslims in previous decades. The study found 1.6 million Muslims nationwide. The count was lower, by millions, than some other surveys, but researchers said the figure was only a tally of those active in mosques, not the total Muslim population.
The evangelical Southern Baptist Convention grew by 4.9 percent during the past decade but remained the nation's largest Protestant group, with nearly 20 million members, according to Glenmary. Other surveys put the Southern Baptist figure closer to 16 million.
The survey, conducted every 10 years, was released Tuesday. It is based on information provided by 149 participating religious bodies. It found 140 million religious adherents in 2000, which means that at least half of all Americans are associated with a religious group.
Since the U.S. Census does not ask about religion, some scholars regard this study, first done in 1971, as the most comprehensive assessment available of U.S. religious affiliation.
 
larc
larc 13 years ago


Gopher,
The U.S. growth rate in the 90's was about 17%, which is not that bad. However, it should be noted that all of the growth occured before 1998. Since 1998, the growth rate has been zero.
 
Gopher
Gopher 13 years ago


Good points, larc.
It's interesting to note the growth of some of the evangelical religions who do their "witnessing" through more friendly means than the cold-calling the JW's are required to do. Through their friendly, informal invitations, they've experienced growth rates of 40% during the past decade (at least here), while the JW's growth has skidded to a halt. (I haven't heard of new Kingdom Halls being built or new Witness congregations forming lately in these parts.)
 
SYN
SYN 13 years ago

So this means the Mormons really are the True Religion? At least according to the logic of the Governing Body it does!
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 13 years ago

But what does it take to be a "member" of these other churches? Speaking for my country, if you come to the Sunday meetings some times, you can be considered as a member, and because some of these Pentecostalist churches acknowledge the baptism of the Lutheran church, then no new baptism is required, and hence people can end up with double or triple "memberships". Also, those counted as active "members" of these other churches have no obligations hooked on them other than being present at meetings, whereas the Witnesses must - at least earlier - go witnessing. Not wanting to change anything in people's view of the figures, it seems to me that there are so different requirements attached, that Witness "membership" and that of the other churches are not so easy to compare.
 
Satanus
Satanus 13 years ago


Old hippie
Religionists with tough standards for member ship like to criticise churches w easier standards for member ship. Would not each church have the perfect right to set their own standards for member ship?
SS
 
Gopher
Gopher 13 years ago


Old Hippie,
Of course the membership standards for JW's are more rigorous than for orthodox religions. After all JW's are more of a group of people providing free labor for a publishing company. So you're right, we are comparing apples and oranges here. (Your comment is not unappreciated !!)
HOWEVER, I was talking about growth. The growth of the JW's (by whatever standards) is not the same as it was a mere 15 years ago, whereas other religions are growing (and thus their influence is too). So this thread was actually about pure numbers and resulting influence.
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

SUCKERS.
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 13 years ago

SaintSatan, I was not critizising anything here, just pointed out what Gopher also says, that we are comparing apples and oranges. I do not see where in my post I tried to deny any group their right to define anything they want to, for themselves.
 
Nassau
Nassau 13 years ago


Growing or numbers do not mean anything! What are we talking about? A business? Terrorism is growing too!
Bahh...

 
pomegranate
pomegranate 13 years ago

John 13:35
"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 13 years ago


Religions are like viruses and bacteria... they eventually reach a saturation point in which there are no more infectable people, or burn out all together.
It looks like the JWs are reaching their saturation point, and with all the scandals, they may even burn out.
 
dsgal
dsgal 13 years ago

Well, I wonder what they are saying about Babylon's waters drying up now? The Witnesses always refer to Isaiah 60:22 "The little one himself will become a thousand,and the small one a mighty nation,I myself,Jehovah,shall speed it up in it's own time."Well,why isn't it happening?Seems to me like only happening in the churches of "christendom."
 
TTBoy
TTBoy 13 years ago


Well the Witnesses are seeing growth but it happens to be in underdeveloped countries. So like a virus it sperads quickly, once enough knowledge is known (like in the US, UK, Japan) the growth stops.
TT
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 13 years ago

What does it take to join a religion? My step son has to study for a year to be baptized in the Catholic Church.
 

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The Watchtower Joins The Catholic Church
by Voyager 13 years ago 4 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower scandals
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Voyager
Voyager 13 years ago


Jolene Chu is a Holocaust researcher, and book writer for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Jolene has joined and sits on the American Research Committee, at St. Joseph's University. This is a Roman Catholic Interfaith Private University. Jolene works closely with James N. Pellechia, (Director of Public Affairs Watchtower). James N. Pellechia is listed as a NGO with the Armenian National Committee Association. ANCA is one of the largest Political organizations in the world.
To find out who Jolene Chu is go to: www.seva.net:8090/pipermail/holocaust/2000-june/subject.html when you get there, click on the holocaust memoirs letters next to Chu Jolene, you will see a wtbts.org web site for Jolene.
To find out about St. Joseph's University go to: www.sju.edu/community/mission.htm There you will find, Roman Catholic History of the University.
To find out who sits on the American Committee for St. Joseph's go to: www.sju.edu/events/scholars_conference/acknowledgements.htm Jolene Chu is the first name listed under American Committee.
To find St. Joseph's Interfaith statement, go to: www.sju.edu/events/scholars_conference/
To find James N. Pellechia listed as a NGO Holocaust Organizer, go to: www.anca.org/anca/actionalerts.asp?aaID=16 When you get there scroll down all religious organizations, that have joined in Interfaith and work jointly as Holocaust Task Force members.
The Watchtower Society admitted in the Watchtower, February 1st 2002 issue page 13, of taking part in Sweden's Government program called LIVING HISTORY. They made brag of how their Holocaust displays, resulted in a 30 per cent increase in Bible studies.
Governments all over the world, are involved in educating and reminding young ones about the Holocaust. Children of today know very little about the Holocaust, and many doubt that it ever happened. So because of this, teaching, educating, printing, and letting the world know about the Holocaust, is very big business.
Watchtower officials rubbed shoulders with Government officials, Prime Ministers, Bishops, Clergy, and high Political figures, yes even Presidents when they took part in the Living History Project. A 30 per cent increase in literature sales, also wet the lips of the Watchtower. It is such a shame to see the Governing Body, make their bread and butter off of the dead.
 
Derrick
Derrick 13 years ago


These associations are shocking beyond belief. After seeing the organization sliding down that slippery slope for the past 12 years, your commentary made me realize that (a) I'm reaching the point of saturation and "overload" in trying to internally process the implications of these kind of reports about the Society; and (b) where I think I see a "bottom" to this slippery slope is starting to look more and more like the overhang to a seemingly bottomless canyon. I have a sinking feeling we are going to soar over that overhang like they did in that raft scene from Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom. I just hope we land in the rapids face-up and survive the waterfall down river if you catch my drift...
Derrick
 
sf
sf 13 years ago


And as you scroll the 'Pellechia' link, this is provided: Sample Letter


Dear Sir/Madam:
I am writing to express my profound disappointment with the exclusion of any mention of the Armenian Genocide from the upcoming Holocaust Memorial Day program on January 27th.
While I fully support this worthwhile commemoration, I am extremely troubled that the Turkish government has been allowed to pressure our government into compromising on this fundamental human rights issue.
The absence of discussion on the Armenian Genocide is particularly troubling given that the Steering Group's Statement of Commitment specifically notes that its mission is to "promote education and research about the Holocaust and other genocide... to make sure that the lessons of such events are fully learnt."
It is my understanding that the reasons cited by the Home Office for excluding mention of the Armenian Genocide were that such mention would somehow detract from the "contemporary relevance" of the commemoration and risk diluting its message by including "too much history." I respectfully disagree. In fact, exactly the opposite is true.
No discussion of genocide can be considered complete without appropriate consideration of the Armenian Genocide. The Holocaust Day memorial programs should include a careful examination of the implications of the Armenian Genocide for the systematic massacres which followed - including the genocide of European Jews, Gypsies, and Poles by Nazi Germany, and those that followed in Cambodia, Rwanda, and elsewhere.
The inclusion of Armenian Genocide is all the more important given the Turkish government's ongoing campaign to deny this crime against humanity. It is the responsibility of all of us who share a commitment to human rights to reject this shameful campaign and to resist any politically motivated efforts to deny or cover up genocide, past or present.
In recent weeks, we have seen the European Parliament, French Senate, and Italian Parliament all adopt Armenian Genocide resolutions Pope John Paul II, on November 9th, issued a powerful statement on the Genocide of the Armenians. The consideration of the Armenian Genocide, rather than including "too much history," would help illuminate the patterns and precedents of genocide in the 20th century.
I respectfully call upon you to take immediate steps to formally protest the exclusion of the Armenian Genocide from Holocaust Memorial Day.
Sincerely yours,
_________________




Sample Phone Script


(The phone will be answered by a receptionist. Ask to speak directly to the person handling the planning of Holocaust Memorial Day activities. If he/she is not available, leave a written or voice-mail message.)
Hello,
I am calling to ask you to protest the exclusion of the Armenian
Genocide from the upcoming Holocaust Memorial Day program on
January 27th.
While I fully support this worthwhile commemoration, I am extremely
troubled that the Turkish government has been allowed to pressure
our government into compromising on this fundamental human rights
issue.
No discussion of genocide can be complete without appropriate
consideration of the Armenian Genocide. The Holocaust Day memorial
programs should include a careful examination of the implications
of the Armenian Genocide for the systematic massacres which
followed - including the genocide of European Jews, Gypsies, and
Poles by Nazi Germany, and those that followed in Cambodia, Rwanda,
and elsewhere.
I respectfully ask that you file a formal protest with the
Government and contact me with the result of your actions. I can
be reached at ________________.
Thank you.
 Background:


Genocide is a crime like no other. It literally means to murder or to try to murder an entire race.
The Armenian Genocide of 1915 to 1923 was committed by the Turkish government of the Ottoman Turkish Empire. One and a half million innocent people were murdered. At that time, the leaders of the United Kingdom, France and Russia condemned these "crimes against humanity". Newspapers from all over the world provided extensive coverage of the Armenian Genocide.
Correspondents for the Times wrote about entire towns in Turkey where "the whole Armenian population... numbering some 10,000 souls, was thus exterminated" (22 May 1916. Times, London). And where "women and children... were subjected to brutal treatment" (21 December 1915. Times, London).
In 1916 the British Government commissioned Viscount James Bryce to compile evidence in regards to the systematic and deliberate destruction of the Armenian people. He presented over 150 documents, which recounted eyewitness descriptions of the massacres. These documents were published as 'Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915-16'. It remains to this day one of the most compelling works on the Armenian Genocide.
Raphael Lemkin, the scholar and historian who invented the word 'genocide,' explained its definition as being what "the Turks did to the Armenians, and the Germans did to the Jews". Since that time, many governments, institutions and parliaments all over the world have recognized and commemorated the Armenian Genocide, including, just this year, the French Senate, the Italian Parliament, and the European Parliament (for the second time), as well as the Swedish Prime Minister and Pope John Paul II.
Despite the overwhelming evidence the Turkish government still claims that the Armenian Genocide never took place.
 
blackguard
blackguard 13 years ago


Hi Voyager,
I am not surprised to see the corporate WTS involved in any manner of intrigues. However, Is Jolene Chu a jaydub or simply a non-jw contractor? Does anyone have a dossier on this person?
 
sf
sf 13 years ago


blackguard,
You can ask her directly here:
[Holocaust] study guides for Holocaust memoirs
 [Holocaust] study guides for Holocaust memoirs. Chu, Jolene JOChu@wtbts.org Fri,
2 Jun 2000 12:44:02 -0400: ... Many thanks for your help. Jolene Chu jochu@wtbts.org. ...
fido.seva.net:8090/pipermail/holocaust/ 2000-June/000317.html - 3k - Cached - Similar pages
And a few other hits:
Forward, You Witnesses - The Controversy of Erich Frost
... Erich Frost - Watchtower Leader and ... You may seek further documentation (most of it
in German) by writing these archivists, Jolene Chu in Brooklyn and Johannes ... www.virushead.net/forwardtruth.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
Here, Kent's 'best friend' is mentioned along with the other two klowns:
[PDF] A - 1 SUMMARIES OF PROPOSALS RECEIVED BY THE SPECIAL MASTER
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Page 1. In Re HOLOCAUST VICTIM ASSETS LITIGATION (Swiss Banks) SPECIAL
MASTER'S PROPOSAL, September 11, 2000 R&O-671622.1 A - 1 SUMMARIES ... www.nyed.uscourts.gov/pub/rulings/cv/1996/671622.pdf - Similar pages
More related hits:
' [PDF] ASC Final Program.qxp
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... for the Righteous Among the Nations, Yad Vashem ... Catholic Isolationism in the United
States: Impediment of ... Seminary (Chicago, IL) Jolene Chu , Jehovah's Witness ... www.kean.edu/hrc/scholarsconf/ASCProgram.pdf - Similar pages
 

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CONFLICT: the winner decides what is TRUE in history and theology
by Terry 9 years ago 21 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 9 years ago

There was a period of time between Judaism, (Messianic Judaism, Christian-Judaism and, finally,) Christianity in which violent arguments over who/what Jesus was vis a vis deity took place.
One of the reasons for writing down the oral traditions was to solidify certain positions and "prove" a particular opinion by representing those opinions as from a higher source. After all, the Jews were the "people of the book" and no greater authority could be referenced in an argument over orthodoxy than what was "written".
Eventually hundreds (if not thousands) of Messiah stories, Jesus stories were circulated; each with yet more powerful representations of who or what his personage revealed as to nature and importance.
The names of important men became attached to these writings to bolster their authority and authenticity. (The Gospel according to.....)
Eventually.....
What became known as Christianity found an authority to back it up that had some real clout: a Roman Emperor!
The power of the STATE in the person of Constantine (worshipper in the cult of Sol-Invictus, the Sun god) championed Christianity and sought to solidify his constituency by smoothing over differences.
Constantine convoked a Council in Nicene in 325 c.e. for the purpose of working out issues of belief and airing opinions and weeding out troublemakers.
One of the most bitter controversies which seemed irreconcilable concerned the nature of Jesus in regard to his status as a human being or demi-god or deity.
The Roman world was pagan. Rome embraced the religion of Greece. Greece embraced philosophy. The philosophy of Plato and its permutations (known as neo-Platonism) were everywhere well-known. Familiarity with IDEAL FORMS and demi-gods was considered the natural state of existence. Even the emperor himself was often considered to be the son of god and of divine status. How could the leader of the Christian religion be LESS than an emperor???
Jesus, however, was from the religion of Judaism. Judaism was notorious for only having ONE supereme God and no OTHER gods. How could Jesus fit in with Judiac thought and theology if he represented a more pagan realization of theology??
The controversy was a bloody one. Churches were burned, men were beaten and deaths occured over this one issue like no other.
The Roman Empire under Constantine was in a position to settle the matter with the power of the state. It did. Contrary views were punished by violent means and writings were burned which contradicted official views of what was "true".
Eventually the Church which emerged from the Church-State union (Catholic) split within itself over the same argument over the definition of Christ's nature (substance vis a vis the Father) and the Greek Orthodox Church became a rival to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Empire split apart into two emperors and two churches for the remainder of the Roman era of domination.
Athanasius and Arius are the two men most often quoted in the argumentations as to the nature of Jesus and his status as deity.
The writings now imputed to be Canon are writings accepted (others being burned) by the same group of arguing bishops and clergy who won the right to excommunicate their opponents.
Depending on the geographical location of a church or congregation; a different theology of Jesus would be preached as True.
The man named Saul who became the most influential self-named Apostle of Jesus, was from a pagan background in the midst of Judaism influenced by neo-Platonism. Paul sought to remove Jesus from Judaism and make his Messianic authority more broad based by appealing to pagans in their familiarity with demi-god status.
As writings about Jesus proliferated a gradual evolution is detected by scholars placing them on a timeline of change. Early writings demonstrate Jesus as human. Later writings color his deeds as superhuman. By the time the Gospel (attributed to John) of John comes along the Jesus represented is now fully on par with the Only True God of the Jews as a morph into equal status without conflict as to number. (Compare Mark with John as to the events in the garden of Gethsemane and the resurrection side by side.)
Jews could no longer accept such a Messiah which violated thousands of years of monotheism. These Jews could have (and did) represented a real holdout to any doctrine of Trinity. However, the Roman army moved against Jewish patriots who were rebellious in Jerusalem. The majority of the Jewish population was dispersed into frightened communities as Rome destroyed the center of worship in Jerusalem. The bulwark against Trinitariansim was sent packing!
This left only the neo-Platonic advocates in a position to widely influence thinking about Jesus and his role as a demi-god/true god.
This status is reflected in John 1:3.
The "truth" of history is written by the winners.
 
5go
5go 9 years ago

Not to put down what the nazi's did to the jews. But hitler got the idea from what the americans ( USA ) did to the native american population. In fact no one was really got on the crimes against humanity charge mainly waging an agresive war. I mean look at what japan did to nanking and the chinese it just japan quickly became an ally and china an enemy. Where as germany was resistant to occupation and the jews became israel our biggest untouchable ally. Another example is turkey and WW1 they invented deathcamps but they are an ally now.

The indictments were for:
1.Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace ( Orwellian speak for number 2)
2.Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
3.War crimes
4.Crimes against humanity
And the USA has several time claimed it does not apply to them only to their enemies.
All signatories to the CPPCG are required to prevent and punish acts of genocide, both in peace and wartime, though some barriers make this enforcement difficult. In particular, some of the signatories — namely,Bahrain, Bangladesh, India, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, the United States, Vietnam, Yemen, and Yugoslavia — signed with the proviso that no claim of genocide could be brought against them at the International Court of Justice without their consent [13] . Despite official protests from other signatories (notably Cyprus and Norway) on the ethics and legal standing of these reservations, the immunity from prosecution they grant has been invoked from time to time, as when the United States refused to allow a charge of genocide brought against it by Yugoslavia following the 1999 Kosovo War.

Why is it ok to for any other country to be charged with it but the USA and some of it's allies can't be without their permission.
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago


Why is it ok to for any other country to be charged with it but the USA and some of it's allies can't be without their permission.
Although it was originally my intention to frame the discussion in strictly religion terms; I'll bite.
Pointing to worse behavior to justify bad behavior is fallacious as far as logic goes.
People try to sneak in to live in America for strong reasons. When the Nazis were destroying their own intelligentsia in concentration camps they drove their best scientists into the arms of America the beautiful.
The U.S. put Japanese in isolated communities which were not even slightly comparable to Nazi death camps. There is no comparison on any level other than superficially. It was fear of a reactionary nature which set the policy of relocation into motion. The Nazi policy was driven by a scapegoat ideology of hatred. No Japanese citizen was put to death.
The extermination of the native american population by the Federal Government has a history to it as well. There was a deliberate attempt to view anything white christians did as mandated by God through MANIFEST DESTINY. By equating the native americans with pagan savages it was easier to expunge them than not.
Many christian groups took indian children away from their tribes and put them into orphanage schools to indoctrinate them with christianity. I blame religion more than politics for this one. But, it was hideous.
There has never been a nation in the history of the world so powerful as the U.S.A. that did more to enable prosperity among those it conquered. Japan went from a feudal state of medeival mentality to a thriving economic industrail state reknowned throughout the world. This stems directly from being defeated by the U.S. and rehabilitated. So, we must weigh the past with the present. Viet Nam was a stoneage country of rice paddies before the war and is a top economic society afterward. Weigh this carefully in the balance.
It is in the nature of humanity to view its own evils as necessity.
What one country does to another country and how the U.S. frames those issues is largely a matter of political policy and little impacts on the reality of life and death per se. Opinion is mere opinion.
When there is tragedy through natural disaster the U.S. is there with its hand out filled with medicine, cash and humanitarian aid.
We allow critics from within our society to complain, villify and hold leader's feet to the fire.
This is the strength of our nation.
It is the dishonor and heartbreak of Christendom, religion and Jehovah's Witnesses specifically that no voice of the loyal opposition is permitted to counter-balance wrong-headed zeal and power mongering.
History is written by the winner and the lesson is ours to ferret out with as much objectivity as our philosophy allows.
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 9 years ago

Read "Why I am Not a Muslim" the same point is basically made. Islam spread because basically Mohammed was a winner- He was good at war and ruthless at exterminating dissent. The winner wrote the history. Always has been the case - but I hesitate to say - always will be.
 
Perry
Perry 9 years ago

Terry,
Your version of history seems like you are saying that the trinity view was the newcomer and that Arius had the orthodox view. Of course that is what I was taught when I was brought up a JW. I was quite surprised in my course on Christian history to learn that the truth was just the opposite. But of course, so much of what I was told as a JW is the opposite of truth.
The title of this thread seems to indicate that you beleive one must be a loser, or at least side with the losers of history if truth is to be found. Anyhow I checked my old college textbook and it confirmed what this Princeton Theologian says below.

The History of the Christian Church
by Henry C. Sheldon
Originally Published by Thomas Y. Crowell and Co., 1895
First Period, From Pentecost to Constantine
THE EARLY CHURCH
II. --THE ARIAN CONTROVERSY
With some revisions and type-setting byhttp://edwardtbabinski.us (2005)

=
II.--THE ARIAN CONTROVERSY.
According to the Arian view, Christ was to be esteemed neither truly divine nor truly human, neither God nor man; but a being intermediate between the two, the first and most exalted of creatures, who at the fulness of time assumed a human body for the sake of man's redemption. Such a view as this had never been received in the Church with any favor, and indeed an exact parallel is not to be found among the preceding heresies.
Arius, who gave the name to this heresy, was a native of Libya, but came to reside at Alexandria as a presbyter of the Church there. He is described as tall and thin, ascetic in habit, and possessed of considerable tact as a logician. About the year 320, his peculiar views had attracted sufficient attention to cause the summoning of a council of Egyptian and Libyan bishops, by which he and his followers were excommunicated. But Arius was not to be silenced. For the wider circulation of his views, he sent abroad his Thaleia, a work partly in prose and partly in verse. A few bishops were found to agree with his doctrine. Others, while not holding exactly his view of the nature of Christ, still favored such an emphatic subordination of the Son to the Father as to entertain much sympathy for him. Especially prominent among these was Eusebius of Nicomedia. Others, while they were not in doctrinal agreement with Arius, deprecated agitation, and thought it impolitic to press the case against him and his adherents. To many, however, the Arian view seemed an intolerable and blasphemous innovation. When, therefore, the attention of Constantine was called to the subject, he found a great agitation existing. Careful above all things for unity, he sought to allay the controversy, and to this end addressed a letter to the disputants in Egypt. He represented that there was no adequate cause, in the nature of the question at issue, for such fierce contention, and pointed to the example of philosophers, who could differ on individual tenets, and still maintain comparative harmony in view of the teachings held by them in common. But conviction and zeal had reached too high a pitch to be quieted by such means. Constantine felt obliged to turn to some more effective expedient, and at length fixed upon the idea of calling a general council. Invitations were sent to bishops in different sections of the Empire, and means were liberally provided for conveying them to the point of meeting.
The council met and held its sessions at Nicæa in Bithynia in the summer of the year 325. According to Athanasius, with whose statements Socrates and Theodoret agree, three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. These constituted the council proper, the numerous presbyters and deacons who accompanied them not being accorded the privilege of voting. The Latin Church had but few delegates in the assembly, --only about a half dozen bishops, and two presbyters who served as representatives of Sylvester, the aged Bishop of Rome.
An assembly so largely representative of the Christian world, and meeting for the first time under the auspices of a Christian emperor, was naturally regarded as a very impressive spectacle. And truly the circumstances, as also the personal makeup of the council, endow it with a peculiar interest. The Church represented here was the Church of the peruecutions, the Church which still bore the imprint of the blows dealt by heathen tyranny. "Many," says Theodoret, speaking of the assembled bishops, "like the holy apostles, bore in their bodies the marks of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul, Bishop of Neo-Cæsarea, a fortress situated on the banks of the Euphrates, had been deprived of the use of both hands by the application of a red-hot iron. Some had had the right eye torn out, others had lost the right arm. In short, it was an assembly of martyrs."[Hist. Eccl., i. 7.]
Among the most august features, in the view of malty, was the presence of the Emperor. Eusebius, who is understood to have presented him the salutations of the bishops, records with evident delight the scene of his introduction to the council. After the entrance of several of his family and friends, "at last he himself proceeded through the midst of the assembly, like some heavenly messenger of God, clothed in raiment which glittered as it were with rays of light, reflecting the glowing radiance of a purple robe, and adorned with the brilliant splendor of gold and precious stones. He surpassed all present in height of stature and beauty of form, as well as in majestic dignity of mien and inimitable strength and vigor. All these graces, united to a suavity of manner and a serenity becoming his imperial station, declared the excellence of his mental qualities to be above all praise. As soon as he had advanced to the upper end of the seats, at first he remained standing; and, when a low chair of wrought gold had been set for him, he waited until the bishops had beckoned to him, and then sat down, and after him the whole assembly did the same." [Vita Cons., iii. 10.] After the address of Eusebius, the Emperor spoke to the assembly, re-affirming his desire for unity and concord in the Church. At a later stage of the proceedings, he gave an emphatic supplement to the main idea of this speech. Gathering up the accusations which quarrelsome persons had presented against certain bishops, he caused them to be burned openly, declaring at the same time upon oath that he had not read them. "He said that the crimes of priests ought not to be made known to the multitude, lest they should become an occasion of offence or of sin. He also said, that, if he had detected a bishop in the very act of committing adultery, he would have thrown his imperial robe over the unlawful deed." [Hist. Eccl., i. 11.]
The discussions of the council revealed at once the existence of at least three parties: (1) the Arians; (2) those commonly ranked together as semi-Arians, though they represented opinions all the way from a near approach to Arianism to a near approach to orthodoxy; (3) the orthodox party, which might also be called the Nicene, inasmuch as it framed and championed the creed that was established by the council of Nicæa. The strict Arians constituted but a small minority. According to Sozomen, they numbered seventeen at the commencement of the council.
 
PrimateDave
PrimateDave 9 years ago

Yes, I agree that this is true for the most part. Thankfully, with the level of documentation available to scholars today, it is possible to probe a little deeper that what is provided in our "banking" education. Anyone who has read A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn can see that there was way more going on beneath the veneer of names, dates, and wars presented in the average high school history text.
Noam Chomsky likewise decries the collective memory hole on significant events of recent history. The points that 5go brought out in his post are significant in illustrating the ignorance of the American public to the crimes of its own government.
Let me just have a little fun with you Terry. I always enjoy your posts and topics, but you said,
"There has never been a nation in the history of the world so powerful as the U.S.A. that did more to enable prosperity among those it conquered. Japan went from a feudal state of medeival mentality to a thriving economic industrail state reknowned throughout the world. This stems directly from being defeated by the U.S. and rehabilitated. So, we must weigh the past with the present. Viet Nam was a stoneage country of rice paddies before the war and is a top economic society afterward. Weigh this carefully in the balance."
To which I counter with a quote from What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky:
"Kennan was one of the most intelligent and lucid of US planners, and a major figure in shaping the
postwar world. His writings are an extremely interesting illustration of the dovish position. One
document to look at if you want to understand your country is Policy Planning Study 23, written by
Kennan for the State Department planning staff in 1948. Here's some of what it says:
"'[W]e have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.3% of its population....In this situation,
we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is
to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of
disparity....To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and
our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national
objectives....We should cease to talk about vague and...unreal objectives such as human
rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when
we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
idealistic slogans, the better.'
"PPS 23 was, of course, a top-secret document. To pacify the public, it was necessary to trumpet the
'idealistic slogans' (as is still being done constantly), but here planners were talking to one another."
.....
"During World War II, study groups of the State Department and Council on Foreign Relations developed
plans for the postwar world in terms of what they called the 'Grand Area,' which was to be subordinated
to the needs of the American economy.
"The Grand Area was to include the Western Hemisphere, Western Europe, the Far East, the former
British Empire (which was being dismantled), the incomparable energy resources of the Middle East
(which were then passing into American hands as we pushed out our rivals France and Britain), the rest
of the Third World and, if possible, the entire globe. These plans were implemented, as opportunities
allowed.
"Every part of the new world order was assigned a specific function. The industrial countries were to be
guided by the 'great workshops,' Germany and Japan, who had demonstrated their prowess during the
war (and now would be working under US supervision).
"The Third World was to 'fulfill its major function as a source of raw materials and a market' for the
industrial capitalist societies, as a 1949 State Department memo put it. It was to be 'exploited' (in
Kennan's words) for the reconstruction of Europe and Japan. (The references are to Southeast Asia and
Africa, but the points are general.)
"Kennan even suggested that Europe might get a psychological lift from the project of 'exploiting' Africa.
Naturally, no one suggested that Africa should exploit Europe for its reconstruction, perhaps also
improving its state of mind. These declassified documents are read only by scholars, who apparently find
nothing odd or jarring in all this."
And, you mentioned Vietnam...
"The Vietnam War emerged from the need to ensure this service role. Vietnamese nationalists didn't want
to accept it, so they had to be smashed. The threat wasn't that they were going to conquer anyone, but
that they might set a dangerous example of national independence that would inspire other nations in the
region."
Yes, it was just another manifestation of old fashioned Colonialism or Exploitation. And it was useful to the Powers That Be in the United States to let Japan and Western Europe exploit the other countries in their regions much as the US has exploited Latin America. The Powers That Be see no problems letting a relatively few intellectuals criticize the immorality of the global economic system because the ignorant masses continue to be lulled by the consensus trance of infotainment and living from paycheck to paycheck.
All of this only proves your original point that the Winner Decides What is True in History. So, you see I am agreeing with you after all.
Also, 5go is right. The rest of the World knows that the United States is the largest terrorist nation in the world.
You also said, "When there is tragedy through natural disaster the U.S. is there with its hand out filled with medicine, cash and humanitarian aid."
To which I turn once again to Chomsky:
"Teaching Nicaragua a Lesson
...
"From 1960 through 1978, the New York Times had three editorials on Nicaragua. It's not that nothing
was happening there -- it's just that whatever was happening was unremarkable. Nicaragua was of no
concern at all, as long as Somoza's tyrannical rule wasn't challenged.
"When his rule was challenged, by the Sandinistas in the late 1970s, the US first tried to institute what
was called 'Somocismo [Somoza-ism] without Somoza' -- that is, the whole corrupt system intact, but
with somebody else at the top. That didn't work, so President Carter tried to maintain Somoza's National
Guard as a base for US power.
"The National Guard had always been remarkably brutal and sadistic. By June 1979, it was carrying out
massive atrocities in the war against the Sandinistas, bombing residential neighborhoods in Managua,
killing tens of thousands of people. At that point, the US ambassador sent a cable to the White House
saying it would be 'ill-advised' to tell the Guard to call off the bombing, because that might interfere
with the policy of keeping them in power and the Sandinistas out."
And then came the Contras...
"Reagan used them to launch a large-scale terrorist war against Nicaragua, combined with economic
warfare that was even more lethal. We also intimidated other countries so they wouldn't send aid either.
...
"Why did the US go to such lengths in Nicaragua? The international development organization Oxfam
explained the real reasons, stating that, from its experience of working in 76 developing countries,
'Nicaragua was...exceptional in the strength of that government's commitment...to improving the
condition of the people and encouraging their active participation in the development process.'
"Of the four Central American countries where Oxfam had a significant presence (El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua), only in Nicaragua was there a substantial effort to address
inequities in land ownership and to extend health, educational and agricultural services to poor peasant
families.
...
"The success of the Sandinista reforms terrified US planners. They were aware that -- as José Figueres,
the father of Costa Rican democracy, put it -- 'for the first time, Nicaragua has a government that cares
for its people.' (Although Figueres was the leading democratic figure in Central America for forty years,
his unacceptable insights into the real world were completely censored from the US media.)
"The hatred that was elicited by the Sandinistas for trying to direct resources to the poor (and even
succeeding at it) was truly wondrous to behold. Just about all US policymakers shared it, and it reached
virtual frenzy.
...
"...we launched the contra war along with an illegal economic war to terminate what Oxfam rightly
called 'the threat of a good example.'
...
"We even refused to send disaster relief. After the 1972 earthquake, the US sent an enormous amount of
aid to Nicaragua, most of which was stolen by our buddy Somoza. In October 1988, an even worse
natural disaster struck Nicaragua -- Hurricane Joan. We didn't send a penny for that, because if we had, it
would probably have gotten to the people, not just into the pockets of some rich thug. We also pressured
our allies to send very little aid.
"This devastating hurricane, with its welcome prospects of mass starvation and long-term ecological
damage, reinforced our efforts. We wanted Nicaraguans to starve so we could accuse the Sandinistas of
economic mismanagement. Because they weren't under our control, Nicaraguans had to suffer and die."
Well, eventually, Nicaragua brought the United States before the World Court and won. But, as you know, all this has gone down the collective memory hole because the United States is such a peachy nice place and a beacon of democracy. The atrocities committed in the Philippines, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and Iraq, just to name a few, were for their own good. I'm being sarcastic.
People don't come to the United States anymore because it is such a great country. They come because much of the rest of the world is in such a shitty condition thanks to exploitation by the Global Elites at home and abroad.
Anyway, thanks for reading my rant. Now, go out and read some Chomsky or watch Manufacturing Consent.
Dave
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

People don't come to the United States anymore because it is such a great country. They come because much of the rest of the world is in such a shitty condition thanks to exploitation by the Global Elites at home and abroad.
An odd way to remove "great" from its own relativity with "less great". How is a person tall? Tall is not a thing in and of itself. If there were only one midget on planet Earth he'd be neither tall nor short because there would be no comparatives.
Greatness must be related to opportunity to create wealth, pursue success and claim ownership of one's own ideas and enjoy the fruits of one's own labors.
Last time I looked, America was still great at that as compared with just about everywhere else.
If I'm wrong I'd like to know how.
 
justhuman
justhuman 8 years ago

Nice answer Perry!!!Indeed as an ex-JW( that turned into the Christian Orthodox faith) I agree with your post tottaly....you gave a very good answer.
Actually this is how Protestands are trying to excuse their existance, because they don't have Apostolic succesion, and in their brief history of 400 years they have more than 12000 protestand sects!!!! After they brake from Catholics, instead of going back to the Early Church, they developed their heretic theological system by ignoring major facts.
They hold the Bible as God's word(and partly it is) but they ignore those who gave them the Bible that is the Orthodox Church. On the other hand they accusing the Early Church that they have turned into Apostasy while they are accepting the Bible that it was set by the "apostate Church Fathers" of the Orthodox Church!!!
The fact is that the Early Church has NEVER apostasized from the Original teachings of the Christian faith. It was carried all the way for the last 2000 years. Below I'm listing some articles regarding the Church
http://www.oodegr.com/english/ekklisia/eksousia1.htm
http://www.oodegr.com/english/protestantism/protest_ekth1.htm
 
VM44
VM44 8 years ago

There has never been a nation in the history of the world so powerful as the U.S.A. that did more to enable prosperity among those it conquered.
Good examples are Japan and Germany after World War II.
I am sorry to say that Iraq will probably be America's greatest failure in this respect. Time will tell though what effect America's intervention into Iraq will have been.
--VM44
 
Happy Harvester
Happy Harvester 8 years ago

Many christian groups took indian children away from their tribes and put them into orphanage schools to indoctrinate them with christianity. I blame religion more than politics for this one. But, it was hideous.
I think religion is both a political tool, and a political entity, though, wouldn't you say? I 'd be willing to bet that Constantine would agree, wouldn't you, Terry?
 
Happy Harvester
Happy Harvester 8 years ago

. . . how the U.S. frames those issues is largely a matter of political policy and little impacts on the reality of life and death per se. Opinion is mere opinion.
When there is tragedy through natural disaster the U.S. is there with its hand out filled with medicine, cash and humanitarian aid.
Not to take what you were saying out of context, but one would wonder about how you mean "little impacts the reality of life and death per se" in regard to (US) public/political policy, both domestically and in terms of foreign relations, particularly in regard to what happened in New Orleans during a recent natural disaster, and what is still happening regarding the global gag rule. I'd say the action (and inaction) of US political policy has major impacts on the "reality of life and death per se," regardless of opinion.
 
Dansk
Dansk 8 years ago

Not to put down what the nazi's did to the jews. But hitler got the idea from what the americans ( USA ) did to the native american population.


That's a new one on me!
Ian
 
Happy Harvester
Happy Harvester 8 years ago

No country has done a better job enfranchising its defeated enemies than the US?
Thanks for the terrific Noam Chomsky quotes, Dave!
Here's a nice little slide show on how nicely we've done infranchising our own citizens - once our enemies - now a scraggly, nagging embarassment to the humanitarianism of our still great country. How is it that a great country accomplishes such mediocrity for its disenfranchised?
http://www.oprah.com/uyl/slide/20020211/uyl_slide_20020211_life_01.jhtml
 
Dansk
Dansk 8 years ago



Health and Well-being:
On Pine Ridge, life expectancy for Lakota men is only 48 years old and for women it's 56. Many struggle every day to get their most basic needs met. Many on the Reservation don't have telephones or cars. They're aren't many businesses, gas stations or grocery stores.
"We're not rich in money and material stuff, but we're rich in our life...our love for our children, our culture, and our language." — Rita Little Boy
Damn disgraceful in the 21st Century. So wonderful how the native Indians, on the whole, still have their priorities right judging by Rita Little Boy's comments. For America, one of the world's greatest democracies, to still have people with a life expectancy of 48 in its own back yard is just beyond belief!

Ian
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

The fact is that the Early Church has NEVER apostasized from the Original teachings of the Christian faith. It was carried all the way for the last 2000 years. Below I'm listing some articles regarding the Church
You are saying more than you reckon.
The teachings of the Christian faith are just that: TEACHINGS. That is plural.
You can't pass "GO" unless you pause and consider the plurality.
There was never wholesale agreement. Never. Not ever.
Judaism had Zealots, Essenes, Saducees and Pharisees who diddn't agree either.
Monotheism may be one god, but; it doesn't lead to one view.
There can be no TRUE faith without wholeness and integrity. And, even with wholeness and integrity it is no guaranteed fait accompli of actuality.
The DIVINE may or may not be present, but; the aftermath of the actual behavior and deeds of the so-called Chruch give a frightening picture of the power and force of politics combined with orthodoxy.
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

I am sorry to say that Iraq will probably be America's greatest failure in this respect. Time will tell though what effect America's intervention into Iraq will have been.
I wouldn't be quick to say that it will be America's greatest failure. If the Iraqi people don't step up to the task of making something better than another fanatic regime you have to lay the blame at their feet.
Sadaam was a huge stone on their chest. It is gone. Why replace it with another? That is their decision and they either have what it takes to gain some measure of a better existence or they don't. But, whatever happens; the outcome is generated by how the indigenous people perform.
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

I think religion is both a political tool, and a political entity, though, wouldn't you say? I 'd be willing to bet that Constantine would agree, wouldn't you, Terry?
Constantine didn't have a clue how different these feisty Jewish Messianic sects would be! The men he was dealing with had been through history's own crucible and emerged as hardened and obstinate as human beings can be! Constantine, in effect, was trying to turn centuries of mistrust, stubborn self-righteousness and willfull fatalism into some sort of garden party United Nations assembly. Messianic Jews (there was no such thing as "Christianity" yet) were never going to budge. The shakedown would only be a temporary alliance at best.
Two thousand years later nothing has changed even though the Messianic Jews have evaporated and only the hybrid cult of "Christians" remains (of itself divided among sects.)
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

Not to take what you were saying out of context, but one would wonder about how you mean "little impacts the reality of life and death per se" in regard to (US) public/political policy, both domestically and in terms of foreign relations, particularly in regard to what happened in New Orleans during a recent natural disaster, and what is still happening regarding the global gag rule. I'd say the action (and inaction) of US political policy has major impacts on the "reality of life and death per se," regardless of opinion.
What you are actually describing here is an interesting phenomenon in two parts.
First, Federal Bureaucracy and secondly local corruption.
Bureaucracy is ineffectual, slow, wasteful and idiotic on its best day. The failures of people working for a bureacracy are due to the redtape, tenure and lack of accountability.
Local corruption is another matter. New Orleans has a long, long history of politcal malfeasance. Getting anything done is a history of bribery and graft and the path of least resistance.
The facts are clear what happened when a bureaucracy met local corruption at Katrina's aftermath!
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

Not to put down what the nazi's did to the jews. But hitler got the idea from what the americans ( USA ) did to the native american population.
Turn a page in your history book, please. Go back...go back...go back....
What did Israel do (according to scripture) with indigenous peoples in the Promised Land?
This is what set the pattern and template for Christian peoples in their dealings with indigenous humanity!
Christianity felt quite smug and certain that dealing with non-Christians (savages) was more a matter of Divine policy (Manifest Destiny) than you might imagine.
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

Here's a nice little slide show on how nicely we've done infranchising our own citizens - once our enemies - now a scraggly, nagging embarassment to the humanitarianism of our still great country. How is it that a great country accomplishes such mediocrity for its disenfranchised?
Let us be honest. The leadership of Native Americans has the same problem that the leadership of Blacks has. The leadership empowers itself at the expense of the victimization of its constituents.
By remaining pathetic, alcoholic, drug-addicted, uneducated victims people of color whine and complain rather than mounting an internal campaign to better their own conditions through community organization and legal clarity.
Those who bypass the "leadership" go on to get a good education and make successful lives for themselves and family. Those who remain behind have only themselves and their leaders to blame for failing them.
Jesse Jackson shakes down corporations for cash by threatening boycotts and the black community lionizes him. But, the black community gets nothing from Jackson but an occasional pep talk.
Native Americans never had a decent battery of effective attorney's and senators working on their behalf because they fail to police their own numbers.
The standards of these communities are apalling.
Do I blame the victims? Or, do I identify the core problems? You decide.
 

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CONFLICT: the winner decides what is TRUE in history and theology
by Terry 9 years ago 21 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Satanus
Satanus 8 years ago

I agree w you, terry.
Strange as it seems, the exploitive american tactics did have mostly positive end results in japan, europe, and a few other places. In latin america, it's questionable. It was a process of breaking old societal systems, and introducing new capitalist systems that serve america first, but also open that country to serve and be served by the outside world. Interestingly, this is similar to what england did in numerous countries, while it was in the empire stage. Rome did much the same to europe for over a millenium. Then, there is alexander the greek. This analysis is a look at the positive side of the conquering and exploitation among the top monkey race on this planet. Further, the above described process has helped to interlink the various tribes and counties. In short, one could say it has helped develop civilization on the planet. Brutal, ruthless methods. But then, that's how we are.
S
 
Terry
Terry 8 years ago

This analysis is a look at the positive side of the conquering and exploitation among the top monkey race on this planet. Further, the above described process has helped to interlink the various tribes and counties. In short, one could say it has helped develop civilization on the planet. Brutal, ruthless methods. But then, that's how we are.
Another way of saying it is like this. Evolutionary pressures drive survival to optimum. The weakest links in both men and institutions dissolve under pressure from more highly organized groups.
The most adaptable s trategy prevails. The weaker of the strategies may hang on in niches until they can no longer survive by isolation.
Egypt reigned supreme as a world power for a long time simply because natural barriers isolated it from competition and maurading. But, when the "People from the sea" were technologically able to arrive with chariots; the Egyptian pre-eminence collapsed.
The American "Indian" had the continent in pristine seclusion until Europeans arrived. Native Americans never progressed technologically beyond the Stone Age. It was ripe for a fall. The historical revisionism of the late 70's and 80's are largely mythic. The tribes used women and slave labor to fuel their subsistance.
 

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Topic Summary
there was a period of time between judaism, (messianic judaism, christian-judaism and, finally,) christianity in which violent arguments over who/what jesus was vis a vis deity took place.. one of the reasons for writing down the oral traditions was to solidify certain positions and "prove" a particular opinion by representing those opinions as from a higher source.
after all, the jews were the "people of the book" and no greater authority could be referenced in an argument over orthodoxy than what was "written".. eventually hundreds (if not thousands) of messiah stories, jesus stories were circulated; each with yet more powerful representations of who or what his personage revealed as to nature and importance.
the names of important men became attached to these writings to bolster their authority and authenticity.



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History And The Search For True Christianity
by pronomono 2 years ago 20 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower bible
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pronomono
pronomono 2 years ago

What happened to the original Christian churches named in the Bible - Philadelphia, Thessolonica, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea to name a few? One would think that since these were the original churches, if we could trace the history of these churches down to our day, we could find who is preaching truth today. Obviously this doesn't lie with JWs because it is a new religion, although I do not doubt the sincerity of their belief.
There are two likely cases that I can see: 1) these became what is now known as the Roman Catholic Church, 2) the Roman Catholic Church was an apostate Christianity that seperated from these true churches and used their power to snuff out the true churches from history.
Which one do you think is correct? What do you believe happened to these original churches?
 
itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat
itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat 2 years ago

Visit Doug Mason's site http://www.jwstudies.com
He has addressed these questions and many others in great detail, and as far as my research has lead me it is fair and accurate.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

I second that Smella ! Doug's latest paper, see the thread The Greek Scriptures , is most illuminating, on this aspect, and others.
What you have to bear in mind is that no Church has remained static in its Doctrine or its Organization.
One of the interesting ones to look at is the Coptic Church, not a single entitiy even then, but they claim to go back to Mark, as their first Bishop, and they certainly were immune to a lot of the wrangling etc that went on in the Roman church.
We can never know ,I fear, what the original Jerusalem Christians taught and believed, or those in Antioch, because the survivng "Christianity" all comes from Paul, seen as an Apostate by a number of early Christians.
 
Hortenzie
Hortenzie 2 years ago

They became muslim, like most Christians in Middle east and North Africa. (Just throwing it in as another possibility )

As pertaining to Christianity I believe there was never a time when all Christians believed and practiced exactly same things. Actually before the unification efforts (and lot of tweaking and editting to make it more resonable and palatable to the educated pagans), the early Christians believed some strange and crazy things...
 
pronomono
pronomono 2 years ago

Thanks, itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat. I'll give that a read.
In my mind true Christianity comes down to the two basic commands: love God with whole heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Absolute truth is impossible in our limited capacity. And for that reason, I am very reserved when it comes to religions that claim their teachings to be such.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

The Golden Rule is not unique to Christianity, in fact it predates it by many centuries. Please read the excellent resources you have been directed to above.
It is possible to lead a full, satisfying, meaningful and valuable life with no religious attachments whatsoever.
 
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent 2 years ago

Pronomono:

What happened to the original Christian churches named in the Bible - Philadelphia, Thessolonica, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea to name a few? One would think that since these were the original churches, if we could trace the history of these churches down to our day, we could find who is preaching truth today. Obviously this doesn't lie with JWs because it is a new religion, although I do not doubt the sincerity of their belief.
There are two likely cases that I can see: 1) these became what is now known as the Roman Catholic Church, 2) the Roman Catholic Church was an apostate Christianity that seperated from these true churches and used their power to snuff out the true churches from history.
Which one do you think is correct? What do you believe happened to these original churches?
We can actually trace the history of some of those churches. However, they did not become Roman Catholic. Rome was never the centre of the early church, and after Constantine moved his capital to Constantinople (now Istanbul), the eastern section of the empire became more and more dominant. When Rome fell to the 'barbarians' the eastern empire became even more influential and the Patriarch of Constantinople gave only nominal recognition to the church in Rome. It is really true to say that the real successor of the early church is the Orthodox church.
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/schweitzer/
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 years ago

With Christianity being a blend of Gentiles and Jews and, save for the Pentateuch, even the Jews not agreeing on the "official" canon of their own scriptures (some recognized only the Pentateuch).
Didn't Paul tell us that it was only human to follow your preferred teacher at 1 Cor 3:4? Different voices speak to different personalities - nothing wrong with that.
 
maccauk11
maccauk11 2 years ago

What happened was Messiah came back for them in the first centruy just as he had promised them along with the Apostles. He said he would return with his KIngdom,itwasaspiritual event that occurred afterthe destruction of jerusalem and the templein 70 AD just as Messiah said it would happen in thatgeneration. All your modern day end time delusions have missed the fulfillment of all things. It was for those faithful ones back then 2000 years ago.
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 2 years ago

It's interesting how the original 4th century cannonized Bible had 73 books, but the protestantreformers in the 17th century took out 7 of the books, leaving 66. Instead of Catholics adding TO the Bible, the prodestants took away books.
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

But...but...nonjwspouse, the original sifting was large and various. I wish Revelation had not made the cut. I hear it got in by a hair.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/
 
Perry
Perry 2 years ago

Which one do you think is correct?

This is an interesting question. I used to think that this question is silly because the truth doesn't live in a religion it exists wholly with God. "Your Word is truth"..... "I am the Way, the Truth and.... In the beginning was the Word.
But, Ive since softened a little and can say that religion does matter. Where you find a body of believers preaching faith in CHRIST ALONE for salvation from judgment after you die....you won't be far off. Also, when members display a servant attitude, it is a good indicator of "correctness".
 
Oubliette
Oubliette 2 years ago


Two thousand years, millions of people searching and still no one's found it. What does that suggest?
This is just a re-frame of the ridiculous JW meme: "God has always had an organization!" ... except of course all the times when he didn't.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Wanting to believe something does not make it so.
 
Perry
Perry 2 years ago

Two thousand years, millions of people searching and still no one's found it.
I found it. Lots of folks have.
My truck license plate reads:
Know Jesus, Know Peace
No Jesus, No Peace
When a person makes friends with God through the blood of Jesus alone, you'll know it better than you know your own name.
 
Oubliette
Oubliette 2 years ago



Perry: When a person makes friends with God through the blood of Jesus alone, you'll know it better than you know your own name.
I don't think I'm alone in saying that the title of this thread implies that "True Christianity" is the sole possession of only one particular religious organization.
My original take on the message of the Bible, and the one I currently hold once again after casting off the shackles of JW "theology," is that Christianity is about a personal relationship with yourself and our Creator.
It seems that is what you are describing as well. If that's the case, then we're in agreement!
 
yadda yadda 2
yadda yadda 2 2 years ago

There are no historical records of what happened to those early churches or what they taught, apart from what little is said about it in the writings of the early church fathers http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

Spot on Yadda, and it seems there never was a consensus of opinion as to what was "truth", there were simply a lot of conflicting ideas that evolved and grew in different directions.
The search for the "original" set of Christian teachings is to look for something that was never really there.
What would be wonderful would be if a collection of contempory writings of the teachings of Jesus were to surface, something like the Gospel of Thomas, but I doubt it ever will. Jesus himself wrote nothing down, as far as we know, he may even have been illiterate for all we know, and so may his close companions.
 
yadda yadda 2
yadda yadda 2 2 years ago

Scholars agree Jesus certainly wasn't illiterate, judging by the various references in the gospels to him reading from scrolls, quoting them extensively, etc.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

Well yes, if we take the Gospels as historically accurate .....................
 

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History And The Search For True Christianity
by pronomono 2 years ago 20 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower bible
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Jack C.
Jack C. 2 years ago

True Christianity ain't your Mother or Fathers religion; it will test the faith of the close-minded and reject the efforts of clergy. It rejects the State and embraces true astrology. It mocks mono-theism, embraces the world of majick, rejects sorcery and is well aware of demonic influence. It rejects the church view of sex and entertainment an accepts NO lies. It follows the intent of Yeshua ben Yoseph, whom they crucified for believing and living it. If you want to be apart of it the "world" will call you a pagan and doom you to the fires of hell. Think you can handle it?
 

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Topic Summary
what happened to the original christian churches named in the bible - philadelphia, thessolonica, ephesus, smyrna, pergamum, thyatira, sardis, and laodicea to name a few?
one would think that since these were the original churches, if we could trace the history of these churches down to our day, we could find who is preaching truth today.
obviously this doesn't lie with jws because it is a new religion, although i do not doubt the sincerity of their belief.. there are two likely cases that i can see: 1) these became what is now known as the roman catholic church, 2) the roman catholic church was an apostate christianity that seperated from these true churches and used their power to snuff out the true churches from history.. which one do you think is correct?



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Spain Church blasts gay marriage
by ignored_one 11 years ago 5 Replies latest 11 years ago   social current
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ignored_one
ignored_one 11 years ago

No surprise there then.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3695748.stm
BBC NEWS Spain Church blasts gay marriage
By Robert Piggott
BBC religious affairs correspondent 
The Roman Catholic Church has attacked the Spanish government's plans to introduce gay marriage, comparing them to releasing a virus into society.
The government says it expects homosexual people to be able to marry as early as next year.
The legislation highlights the steep decline in the power and authority of the Church in Western Europe.
This is especially the case in Spain - which was until recently one of Europe's most devout countries.
'Counterfeit'
The bill allowing same sex marriage - expected to be passed by the Spanish cabinet this week - has prompted a harsh response from Roman Catholic bishops.
Their spokesman likened gay marriages to a counterfeit currency.
"It would impose on society a virus, something false, which will have negative consequences for social life," Juan Antonio Martinez Camino said.
Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero took office in April, intending to remove what he called the Church's undeniable advantages and create a secular state with streamlined divorce and relaxations in abortion law.
The changes have distressed and outraged the Church, whose influence on Spaniards has declined precipitously since the death in 1975 of the dictator General Francisco Franco. His regime was closely linked to the Church.
Opinion polls suggest that nearly half of Spaniards now almost never go to mass.
Story from BBC NEWS:http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3695748.stm
Published: 2004/09/28 03:58:05 GMT
© BBC MMIV
OMG...The sky is falling...the sky is falling.
-
Ignored One.
 
Gretchen956
Gretchen956 11 years ago

Yea, yea, yea, same old song by the church, they actually tried to blame the pedophile thing on "gay" clergy. When all is said and done, my marrying my partner will have no impact on society.
Sherry
 
ignored_one
ignored_one 11 years ago

So gay marriage is a 'virus'?
O.......K
-
Ignored One.
 
ApagaLaLuz
ApagaLaLuz 11 years ago

Yep I think I caught it once when I didnt wash my hands very well at an Interstate truck stop bathroom. Thank goodness the church was offering cheap vacinations.

Viva Espana!
 
jwbot
jwbot 11 years ago

ahh the church, the pinacle of love!
 
Brummie
Brummie 11 years ago

One thing we have to accept is that Society is complex and not made up of one opinion, the church does not have to accept the gay marriage as long as they dont harm the gay person. Its their perogative to believe something different to what most of us do, look at JWs allowing people to die by refusing blood, we dont accept that belief but we have to accept that others do.

Brummie
 

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Meet The Mormons, in Theaters now
by designs a year ago 5 Replies latest a year ago   social entertainment
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designs
designs a year ago

The LDS Church has a slick new Documentary out now- Meet The Mormons. http://meethtemormons.com Huffington Post etc..
Huffington Post described it as slick, light on doctrine, and presenting a public face that you wouldn't find if you walked into a typical LDS Church.
I wonder how far behind the new JW.Org think tank guys are on developing their own film for Theater release.
 
FeelingFree
FeelingFree a year ago

We had that shown on T.V over here in the UK. It's really rather good. Me and my husband watched it with my dad and felt a bit awkward as they are just so similar to JW's with a few obvious difference's. Think it made my dad feel a bit uncomfortable though!
If you want to watch it you can get it on channel4.com they have a catch up services called 4OD. Probably only available to watch for UK resisdents though. If you can see get to see it, it's def worth it.
Here is the link - www.channel4.com/programmes/meet-the-mormons/4od
For some reason I cant link it properly because FireFox wont let me.
 
rebel8
rebel8 a year ago

There was a jw infomercial playing on TV a few years ago.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

"Meet the Feebles"
"Meet the Parents"
"Meet the Fockers"
"Meet the Mormons"
"Meet the Jay-Dubs"
 
designs
designs a year ago

I am sure if this Mormon film makes a buck the JWs will seriously consider one...
 
designs
designs a year ago

Disfellowedshipped Mormon Kate Kelly, an advocate for women's ordination in the LDS Church, was denied reinstatement by an all male Church Council.
 

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The LDS did the JW's a favor
by Quarterback a year ago 2 Replies latest a year ago   social humour
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Quarterback
Quarterback a year ago

There was this guy that sat at the back of our KH for about 10 years. He must of studied with so many desparate pioneers but nothing happened. He just couldn't break his smoking habit. Then. we didn't see him for three months. So, two Elders went to see him and to assess. We found out that the Mormons got him.. He was studied, and in 6 weeks got baptised with them. Man, the LDS are fast movers. But, the guy still smokes. He did give me strange vibes. I'm glad he became mormon. Those feelings may make me blood guilty
 
prologos
prologos a year ago

but he must have given up coke, coffee and cabernet merlot?
 
Quarterback
Quarterback a year ago

When he told the Elders he was baptised as a Mormon, he thought that they would be proud of him, and offer him praise.
 

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OMG! Just watched a pile of LDS TV - JW.tv is like it. and
by hamsterbait a year ago 3 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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hamsterbait
hamsterbait a year ago

The Mormons have the "Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" leading them. They sit at the front of the Temple and are looked up to. Is this where all the emphasis on the GB is going?
The tv has the same kind of music and photo techniques. Apart from a rubber faced clown, it is actually less embarrassing - but maybe because when I was draggged up in da troof, these sort of things were mocked and looked down on by the Borg, so the dubby stuff really gets to me...
 
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle a year ago

hampster, you should find the Mormon vidoe of the Prodigal Son. It is very entertaining to compare to the JW one.
But yes, they are just copying them, LDS has been using videos for years, they even broadcast the general conference on the website.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

You think they hired the same PR and production guys?
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a year ago

Being LDS, myself, I can't argue with you on how awful some of our "official" videos are. The prduction values are terrible because, like yours, they're written, cast and produced by committee. One of the most famous ones is "Johnny Lingo." For years, people would refer to an engaged woman or as a very attractive LDS woman as being a real potential "nine-cow wife." It's probably on YouTube if you're really desperate for entertainment. It still shows up on DVDs and CDs that mysteriously appear on the back of cars of couples that are just married. It's so bad it refuses to die. There are some good videos, though, but they're all produced outside the church. The JOURNEY OF FAITH videos are good examples (also on YouTube).



 

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What Do Mormons Really Believe? RE: The Nov. 8, 1995 Awake Magazine
by D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago 59 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower bible
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D_Rolling_Kearney
D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I have written a heavily-documented response to the official magazine of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Awake!, that claims to teach what we believe. I saw an article from last year's Watchtower about a guy who had barely been Mormon for very long, and obviously did not know what we believe, who was given this magazine by JW's to show him "the truth." He claims to have proven to himself that it was true from information on the LDS Church's website. Unfortunately, he either is not telling the truth, or did not look very deep. My response has over 200 footnotes, and includes links directly to the source documents that were used in the Awake! magazine, some of them more than 150 years old! I welcome questions and comments. Just please read it before commenting. Thanks! This is the link: http://religion.lightandlearning.org/nost
 
Found Sheep
Found Sheep 2 years ago

and?
 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 2 years ago

You've reached a board mainly filled with ex-JWs, to if you are looking to preach at active JWs, I'd suggest calling your local Kingdom halls.
You can also go on over to jwtalk.net and preach to active JWs all you want.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

..what can we offer you in return :wink:
 
fakefading
fakefading 2 years ago

Mormons and JWs both do not have "the Truth".
 
zed is dead
zed is dead 2 years ago

A cult like the JW's lying about another cult?! Say it ain't true!
zed
 
Heliocentric
Heliocentric 2 years ago

Looking into Mormon beliefs helped me exit Jehovah's Witnesses. I kept trying to rationalize JW doctrine that had proven untrue, but would LOL reading similar falsifiable Mormon doctrine (The Book of Abraham). At some point I had to admit we were both fooled.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 years ago

....................................................
..
.........................................................................................................................................I Lost the Golden Book..
Where did I Bury that Golden Book?!...........You Lost the Golden Book?!...........................I`m Starting a Religion!..
....
...........................................................
...............................................................................................................................photo mutley-ani1.gif ...OUTLAW
 
MadGiant
MadGiant 2 years ago

"I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I have written a heavily-documented response to the official magazine of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Awake!, that claims to teach what we believe." - D_Rolling
"I saw an article from last year's Watchtower about a guy who had barely been Mormon for very long, and obviously did not know what we believe," - D_Rolling
This is a transcript from a video:
I'm Brian Dalton. I'm the writer, director, and creator of the "Mr. Deity Show."
Well, for the first 27 years of my life, I was a Latter-Day Saint — a Mormon. Uhm... I' lef the Church in 1993...
(Laughs) Yeah, that's an understatement. My life has changed in some pretty dramatic ways.
How has it changed? Uhm... I guess, in general, I'd just say that its a lot less... crazy. For instance...
The slightly crazy...
I no longer believe in the Golden plates of "Reformed Egyptian."
I no longer believe that the Hebrews were a "white and delightsome" people 600 years before Christ.
I no longer believe that men who claim to speak for God reveal anything but their own arrogance and self-delusion.
I no longer believe in three heavens.
I no longer believe in excommunicating historians whose only fault is telling the truth.
I no longer believe that I am a literal spirit child of God.
I no longer worry about a sip of wine or enjoying a cup of coffee.
I no longer believe that when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done.
The slightly more crazy...
I no longer believe that we all have a mother in heaven.
I no longer believe that God is such a poor communicator that he said "horse" but meant "deer."
I no longer believe that a burning in my bosom is any indication of truth or value.
I no longer believe that Jesus visited the Americas after his resurrection.
I no longer believe that an institution which changes its doctrines as our culture evolves is in any way directed by a transcendent being.
I no longer believe that other men understand God better than I do, or speak for and/or with him on a regular basis.
The fairly crazy...
I no longer believe that the Native Americans are Hebrews.
I no longer believe that homosexuality is a sin.
I no longer believe in secret handshakes, key words, or new names.
I no longer believe in a place called "Adam-ondi-ahman" or that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.
I no longer believe in taking oaths of secrecy.
I no longer believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
I no longer five 10% of my gross income to a multi-billion dollar corporation.
I no longer believe that a stone knife is a good substitute for what the Book of Mormon very specifically calls a "steel sword."
The fully crazy...
I no longer believe that black people are black because they fought less valiantly in some war in heaven.
I no longer believe that polygamy was ever a divine institution or that God may have many wives.
I no longer believe in prophets who taught that there were people on the moon.
I no longer believe that God is merely an exalted man with a body of flesh and bone.
I no longer believe that women are unqualified or ill-suited for leadership positions in any organization.
I no longer believe that God once lived on a planet just as we do now.
The batshit crazy...
I no longer believe in a god who punishes people by darkening their skin.
I no longer believe that an ordinary Egyptian funerary text from the Common Era contains the writings of Father Abraham.
I no longer believe that I can become a god with him own universe, planets, and people to worship me.
I no longer believe in being vicariously baptized for dead people.
I no longer believe that our god is merely one god in a potentially infinite series of gods.
I no longer believe that dark-skinned people can become light-skinned people by living the Mormon gospel.
I no longer wear religiously prescribed underwear, nor do I believe that such a thing protects anyone.
I no longer believe that God lives on or near a planet or star named "Kolob."
I no longer believe that placing one's face in a hat containing a "seer-stone" is a reliable means of translating an ancient language.
The unconscionable...
I no longer believe that my happiness is enhanced by my obedience to other men's ideas of how I should live my life.
I'm Brian Dalton. I'm a writer. I'm a director. I'm a rational human being.
And I'm a Formon (former Mormon).
And keep an eye out for David Fitzgerald's excellent new book on Mormonism (soon to be released):http://www.facebook.com/TheCompleteHe...
 
daringhart13
daringhart13 2 years ago

JW's and Mormons
Cults
 
villagegirl
villagegirl 2 years ago

Mad Giant - Zowie - I and I assume you no longer wear secret underwear?
And Americans nearly voted a Mormon into office ? Oh wait they did vote him
into being governor of a State , right ? And how about the guy who runs
Bountiful in BC, the Mormon polygamist colony.? Its not a leap for a JW
to be a Mormon, since so much is the same in the way of a "special society"
Male dominated, right down to having your own Planet ? And a magical guy
who was chosen by God to write special books ?
 
villagegirl
villagegirl 2 years ago

MAD GIANT - Alert - Facebook took down your page !!
and Yahoo puts the link ito some sort of cage and spins it.
Yahoo must be run by Mormons, may be facebook also ?
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago



 
D_Rolling_Kearney
D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago

I was not aware that this forum was exclusively ex-JW's, I just thought there were some on here, as well as active.
The information I posted was not addressed solely to active JW's, but to anyone who may have read it or heard the misinformation spread in the Awake magazine I referenced.
I was also looking for an honest discussion. I can only hope that, of the nearly 500 of you who have viewed this post as of now, there will be someone sincere enough to actually read my link before commenting. I expected anti-Mormon slander–I saw it on another post on this forum–but many of the reasons people have presented for opposing the Mormon Church have been addressed in my short online book (at the link). I'm not looking to convert anyone, just clear up misconceptions. It looks like you could all benefit.
Things like the silly meme in the post above ("Joseph Smith admitted to defrauding people!") can be checked against facts that are available online as we speak:

Joseph Smith/Legal issues/Trials/1826 court appearance for glasslooking
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Legal_issues/Trials/1826_glasslooking_trial

Joseph Smith/Legal issues/Trials/1826 glasslooking trial/Con man
Was Joseph found guilty of being a "con man" in 1826?
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Legal_issues/Trials/1826_glasslooking_trial/Con_man

See also:
Legal and Business Records of Joseph Smith
◦Forthcoming: images and transcripts of legal and business papers, including records of the many court cases in which Joseph Smith was a plaintiff, defendant, or witness
http://josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers#/L2L
 
zed is dead
zed is dead 2 years ago

I went to see Book Of Mormon. does that count?
zed
 
Apognophos
Apognophos 2 years ago

D_Rolling_Kearney, there are active JWs on here, but almost no believing, active JWs. So effectively we're pretty much all ex-JWs in spirit, at least. A lot of us are also skeptical smart-asses, sorry about that. I understand that the JWtalk site is composed of actual believing JWs, but I think membership is restricted to JWs somehow. Others here know more about that than I do.
 
oppostate
oppostate 2 years ago

We don't need no stinking lies of Joseph Smith promoted on a mostly ex-JW forum!
One thing I'm glad for is that everytime the google ads promoting Mormonism show up on the JWN forum pages, mormons are getting charged for the ads, at least it may keep Simon getting some revenue to keep JWN going. :smile:
Mormonism is even worse in my opinion than JWism but not by much, they're both high control, brainwashing CULTS!
 
love2Bworldly
love2Bworldly 2 years ago

I have no desire to read the link because all religions are MAN MADE. Mormons are a cult just like the JWs and their belief system is whacked, just like the JWs.
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

DRK: "I have written a heavily-documented response"
soon followed by:
"I was not aware that this forum was exclusively ex-JW's, I just thought there were some on here"
.
Is this an example of your investigative acumen, DRK ??
 
zed is dead
zed is dead 2 years ago


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What Do Mormons Really Believe? RE: The Nov. 8, 1995 Awake Magazine
by D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago 59 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower bible
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villagegirl
villagegirl 2 years ago

You lost me at the bit about
the special underwear.
I try to avoid religions that involve
wearing a costume. Which is why
I am not a Muslim.
I hope I don't end up on
your special personal Planet
some day with you as God.
That would be awkward.
 
factfinder
factfinder 2 years ago

MadGiant- is that what Mormons believe? I knew they were wacked out but that is even crazier than I thought!
Compared to Mormons witness teachings make sense!
 
HowTheBibleWasCreated
HowTheBibleWasCreated 2 years ago

Why not just read the BOM? It quotes ferom KJV isaiah word per word thus is written after 1611!

So F&&& their faith! Burn them with facts!
After Nephi is shown as a fogery show that Jesus is false. After that show genetics to native americans@
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

I've had several discussions with Mormon missionaries over the years. After they insist the BM (appropriate, isn't it?) is an improvement on the Bible, and a new 'testimony' revealing Jesus and truth, I would ask them why it quotes a large percentage of the KJV verbatim and repeats the same errors the KJV made?? That would usually get the deer-in-the-headlights response. Either they didn't know that fact or they did and were embarrassed someone other than them knew it too.
.
"It is tough to discover that what you have believed in and invested your time in for so many years is a false hope and even a fraud/scam. You can spend hours and a lot of verbiage in rationalizing justification and excuses to continue the learned belief system." - Douglas A. Wallace, former Mormon
.
After reading the Book of Mormon, Mark Twain said, "It is chloroform in print."
 
cantleave
cantleave 2 years ago

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
I am so sorry :frowning:
 
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 2 years ago

Line from my JW elder brother, and I quote..
"we eat Mormons for breakfast"

What a moron....
 
Ding
Ding 2 years ago

How about going through MadGiant's list and telling us which of those is not taught by Mormonism?
Then go through that list and tell us which of those were never taught by Mormon prophets.
 
MadGiant
MadGiant 2 years ago

"MAD GIANT - Alert - Facebook took down your page !!" - villagegirl
Sorry about that. The link worked a year back.
Here is the guy web page:
http://mrdeity.com/index-underconstruction2013.html
And his youtube channel:
http://youtube.com/user/misterdeity
And yes, they are crazy.
"MadGiant- is that what Mormons believe? I knew they were wacked out but that is even crazier than I thought!" - factfinder
Don't take my word for it. Just do a little research, read from opposer, apologetics and critics then draw your own conclusions.
"I was also looking for an honest discussion." - D_Rolling
Your really make my laugh, a religious person asking for an honest discussion about religion.
Oxymoron:
An oxymoron (plural oxymora or oxymorons) is a figure of speech that juxtaposes elements that appear to be contradictory. Oxymora appear in a variety of contexts, including inadvertent errors (such as "ground pilot") and literary oxymorons crafted to reveal a paradox.
Examples:
◦I am a deeply superficial person. - Andy Warhol
◦Of course I can keep secrets. It’s the people I tell them to that can’t keep them. - Anthony Haden-Guest
◦She used to diet on any kind of food she could lay her hands on. - Arthur Baer
◦I distinctly remember forgetting that. - Clara Barton
◦I was also looking for an honest discussion." - D_Rollin

take care,
ismael
 
MadGiant
MadGiant 2 years ago

@D_Rolling:

Take a look at these videos, we can start our "honest discussion" after.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5F1EB3B4F919226D
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

Once you have seen the man behind the curtain and realized the Watchtower is full of deception, it's really hard to look at the Mormons and believe any thing they teach either. They are both cults, I didn't get out of one just to join another one.
They both started with a charismatic, narcissistic leader who claimed to have special knowledge about God. Both men had odd personal relationships and were involved in shady business and financial dealings.
They are both high control religions that require their members to sacrifice a good portion of their time on church activities and proselytizing. Both use deception in recruiting new members, both use relationship control and believe they are the only route to salvation.
Same meat, different gravy.


 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

"honest discussion" to a religious person = their view is the only one under consideration and you must buy into their delusional fantasies while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
 
MadGiant
MadGiant 2 years ago

http://youtu.be/4S4hqkIIZ5A
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

The laughable thing about JWs vs. Mormons is that each declares the other to be on the wrong path and deceived, yet both are cut from exactly the same cloth.
 
Ding
Ding 2 years ago

The WT and LDS church were both founded in the 19th century by men who were convinced that true Christianity disappeared from the earth after the apostles until they came along to restore it.
One of them determined truth by measuring a pyramid.
The other determined truth by staring at a seer stone in his hat.
 
1009
1009 2 years ago

D_Rolling_Kearney, you are (partly) so right.
I saw an example at your website about a reference regarding the Garden of Eden. You called it bewildering, because the reference has nothing to do with the subject in question. At this forum you can find many similar examples. The JW-leaders are misleading the public and manipulating their members.
But now I'll quote (totally out-of-context) from the same part of your website:

Basically, "Our guess is better than your guess"? That's not really a contrast, is it?
http://religion.lightandlearning.org/nost/jw14.php
Don't you see that this statement applies on everything you believe? JW's believe this, mormons believe that. Both think that their believe is better than any other. But in reality there is no contrast: it is the same nonsense in another template.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago

As many posters know, I’m also a member of the LDS Church. And I’ve been here for years, having first visited this site when part of my extended family joined the Society (it’s NOT a church, yet it baptizes people into the name of the Father and the Son and to the Spirit-led organization representing Jehovah on Earth) and, getting back to my family, pretty much cut us off at the knees.
For one thing, Rolling, the Society would NEVER, ever, sponsor a forum for member exchange. This is what’s called a “recovery board.” And many of its members have gone from true believers to doubters, and then, unfortunately, to atheism and the spite and disillusionment that comes with it. After having thought they first knew all the answers as Jehovah’s Witnesses, they now, as unbelievers, again think they have all the answers.
The history of the organization — the “outfit,” as the Chicago mob were called — is magnificently lacking in any spiritual gifts such as prophecy; not that they haven’t tried to prophesy. It just hasn’t worked out. They call other religions “manmade” and reject much of first century Christianity and eschatology, basing themselves in a foundation of Replacement Theology. They view themselves as the inheritors of the blessings given to Jacob and God no longer cares about Judah and Israel. Also, there are no angels, no direct communication with Deity, no witnesses of their divine calling. And though it’s not a church, it will disfellowship (excommunicate) anyone who joins one. If you even go to one for a wedding or a visit, you’re toast; and if you’re caught in one during “Armageddon” (the Society’s view of the end of the Age), you’ll be slaughtered with the others who happen to be there with you. It’s viewed as false religion, Babylon the Great.
Bottom line, you won’t change any minds. But you will learn a lot about the Society and its structure. And there are plenty of nice people here who have not lost faith in Christianity; however, tread lightly. The atheists think they’re the only ones here.
 
berrygerry
berrygerry 2 years ago

If Mormons would allow alcohol and caffeine, they would be the better cult to choose from (just sayin')
 
yadda yadda 2
yadda yadda 2 2 years ago

Take your choice of which personal non-provable divine revelation you believe.
Moses had a divine revelation from Yahweh, Paul had a divine revelation from Jesus, Mohammed had a divine revelation from Allah, Joseph Smith had a divine revelation from Moroni.
HOLD ON HERE A GODDAM MINUTE...SOMEONE'S GOTTA BE TELLING PORKIES CUZ THEY CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT!
So which one will I plump for? Hmmmm, I'll believe the personal non-provable divine revelation that my parents believed or that my fellow countrymen believe!
One religion trying to defend his religion (with over 200 footnotes!) against another is about as pointless as one culture trying to prove that another culture is wrong.
There's a reason the angel was called MORONi
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 2 years ago

What i want to know is, where can i get myself a pair of these ?


 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

That's rich, Cold Steel commenting about the Jehovah's Witnesses not having the gift of prophecy, Pot, meet kettle. Besides, the JWs actually do not claim to have the gift of prophecy, although they are so dogmatic about their predictions and ever changing interpretation of scripture, they might as well claim they do.
This is a forum for all ex JWs, whether Athiests or not, I have never seen an Athiest here saying that this forum is only for them. Simon, who developed this board, is an Athiest, yet he has never banned anyone for being a Christian, although some believing posters have been banned for violating forum rules, but only after many warnings. Cold steel, you are allowed to post even though you were never a JW, and are usually promoting Mormonism. I don't know if I would be that generous if it were my board.
Yes, the Athiests here will challenge statements that they disagree with, as this is a discussion forum. At times they may get a bit dogmatic, obnoxious even, but they are entitled to their opinion, as are the believers. At times the discussions may get heated, sometimes things are said in the heat of the moment that are not tactful, but this is on both sides. In my experience it is usually the beliefs that are ridiculed, not the believer. If someone is bothered by this, there are a lot of subjects being discussed other than belief in God. I have seen posters here say many derogatory and untrue things about Athiests, that they just want to be live an immoral life, that they are negative, fault finding, miserable people, that they don't love their fellow man, that they are materialistic, etc. This is from people who don't know any Athiests personally, nor did they study it, they are just making assumptions or repeating things they learned from their church.
Cold Steel is correct that you will never change anyone's mind here. We have all been through cult mind control 101, we are very unlikely to be interested in yours. If we wanted a religion to tell us what to think, do and say we could have just stayed with the JWs and not lost our friends and family. I know you think you are different, and so much better, but you are not, in my opinion.
I know you don't think Mormonism is a cult or high control religion, nobody who is in a cult thinks they are in a cult. You look at the Jehovah's Witnesses and can see that it is a cult, but you think you are different. What makes a religion a cult is not so much the specific beliefs, but the methods used to teach and reinforce those beliefs. JWs and Mormons believe very different things, but the culture is very similar. Of course the Mormon underwear seems bizarre to those not indoctrinated or raised in the religion, but it's minor compared to the mind control that is used to control and keep members.
I would encourage any Mormon to read up on cult mind control. Here is some information I summarized from howcultswork.com. Many here also recommend Steve Hassans book, Combating Cult Mind Control.
SIGNS YOU MIGHT BE IN A CULT
Exclusivism: Any group that tells you that you must belong to their organization to be saved is almost certainly a cult.
Fear and intimidation: Cult leadership is feared, to disagree with the leadership is to disagree with God.
Love bombing and relationship control: New members are very warmly welcomed, and are encouraged to develop friendships and marry only within the group. This feels great at first, but then you realize if you want to leave the group, you will loose all your family and friends, a very powerful threat. Social ostracism is one of the cruelest things you can do to a person.
Information control: Members are discouraged from reading material from outside the group, especially if it is critical of the group.
Time Control: Members are kept so busy with meetings and duties that they do not have time to think about their involvement or question anything.
 

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Topic Summary
i am a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, and i have written a heavily-documented response to the official magazine of the jehovah's witnesses, awake!, that claims to teach what we believe.
i saw an article from last year's watchtower about a guy who had barely been mormon for very long, and obviously did not know what we believe, who was given this magazine by jw's to show him "the truth.
" he claims to have proven to himself that it was true from information on the lds church's website.



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What Do Mormons Really Believe? RE: The Nov. 8, 1995 Awake Magazine
by D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago 59 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower bible
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garyneal
garyneal 2 years ago


I'm not looking to convert anyone, just clear up misconceptions. It looks like you could all benefit.
So what you're saying is that the Watchtower teaches misinformation about the Mormons. The should come as a surprise to no one, they do it towards other churches too. They do it about those who leave the religion too.
Do the mormons also teach misinformation about other groups?
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 2 years ago

I remember the Awake! article the OP is referencing. I also remember another important feature of that magazine; it was the first one that ditched the decades old 1914 'generation' masthead. Sorry guy, I've always thought that you and your Mormon buddies were used as a distraction technique in that issue. .
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 years ago

JW's don't discriminate, they lie about everyone.
So welcome to the club.
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

Based on my own personal research, Mormons have a significantly higher proportion of hot-looking elders than do JWs. There are 28 such good-looking Mormon elders to 0.5 JW elders. By this result, good-looking JW elders are infuriatingly rare. This is not a trivial fact but one that lovers of fine-looking men will appreciate. The combination of good looks and stupid beliefs renders the male species uniquely alluring...but strictly in small doses. My next project is to see if the correlation between good looks and leadership extends to other organizations such as state zoos and funeral homes. My research is tirelessly funded by my own pocket with no state funding. I wish to advise all relevant male Mormons, JWs, state zoo managers and funeral home proprietors of my scholarly interest.Pm-ing me is fine.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 2 years ago

I asked a couple of missionaries about the scriptures discussing Jesus killing the fig tree. They said they would look into it and come back. That was over a month ago. One of them called in at the house next door yesterday, but never called on me. I saw her several times yesterday as we were out and about in our town. Her group was ambling very slowly, just kind of passing the time, until they came back to our street to find that the neighbors weren't home yet. She saw me at home and in the car every time, but didn't acknowledge me.
Maybe I should have let them mow the lawns when they offered.
I haven't seen the other one since our chat even though she promised to come back with answers.
 
Witness 007
Witness 007 2 years ago

Amazing.....I used to be this guy white washing Rutherford and Russells history....I could make Stalin look like a "really nice guy." Religious blindness and brainwashing is worse then cancer.
 
treadnh2o
treadnh2o 2 years ago


 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


If Mormons would allow alcohol and caffeine, they would be the better cult to choose from (just sayin')
We're having a special next week. Join and you can have all the alcohol and caffeine you want.

LisaRose: That's rich, Cold Steel commenting about the Jehovah's Witnesses not having the gift of prophecy, Pot, meet kettle. Besides, the JWs actually do not claim to have the gift of prophecy, although they are so dogmatic about their predictions and ever changing interpretation of scripture, they might as well claim they do.
And what's so "rich" about it? We claim both prophecy and revelation, just as in the ancient church. It seems that if a religion is going to claim any sort of legitimacy, it must have these gifts. The Jehovah's Witnesses just assumed to be God's represented Kingdom on Earth. But how does that work? How do they know God chose them in 1919 (or whenever)? Or that Jesus returned "invisibly"?

Cold steel, you are allowed to post even though you were never a JW, and are usually promoting Mormonism. I don't know if I would be that generous if it were my board.
I only promote Mormonism when someone denegrates it. I have never posted even one topic on Mormonism. If othe people don't bring it up, I never mention it. Also, Mormonism has almost nothing in common with the JWs...I fail to see why people keep trying to link it. Are we a "cult"? Yes. Was early Christianity a cult? Absolutely! In fact, we have much more in common with first century Christianity than any other church I'm aware of.

 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Based on my own personal research, Mormons have a significantly higher proportion of hot-looking elders than do JWs. There are 28 such good-looking Mormon elders to 0.5 JW elders. By this result, good-looking JW elders are infuriatingly rare. This is not a trivial fact but one that lovers of fine-looking men will appreciate.
Umm...I don't think we're your type, Steve. But you happen to be right. I'm rockin' hot at 60! No gray hair. Just a bit of nose and ear hair, which I keep fashionably trimmed.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Do the mormons also teach misinformation about other groups?
Absolutely not.
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

CS: It seems that if a religion is going to claim any sort of legitimacy, it must have these gifts.
.
I agree with that statement.
So how do you get around the fact that, just like WT, the Mormons don't have these "gifts" either?
Or, is your lack simply superior to the WT's lack?
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 2 years ago

I didn't see Majic Underwear mentioned in the article.
Rub a Dub
 
androb31
androb31 2 years ago

Cold Steel:

And what's so "rich" about it? We claim both prophecy and revelation, just as in the ancient church. It seems that if a religion is going to claim any sort of legitimacy, it must have these gifts. The Jehovah's Witnesses just assumed to be God's represented Kingdom on Earth. But how does that work? How do they know God chose them in 1919 (or whenever)? Or that Jesus returned "invisibly"?

I'm interested in seeing a list of fulfilled prophecy of the Mormon church.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago


! In fact, we have much more in common with first century Christianity than any other church I'm aware of.
Lol, the JWs say that too. Show me where the first century Christians wore special under garments with symbols on them, or didn't allow alcohol. Remember Jesus's first miracle? Show me where the first Christians got baptized for dead relatives. Show me the scripture in the bible that talks about the golden tablets.
d what's so "rich" about it? We claim both prophecy and revelation, just as in the ancient church. It seems that if a religion is going to claim any sort of legitimacy, it must have these gifts. The Jehovah's Witnesses just assumed to be God's represented Kingdom on Earth. But how does that work? How do they know God chose them in 1919 (or whenever)? Or that Jesus returned "invisibly"?
Anybody can claim anything, but it's another thing to actually do it. If you don't see the irony if a Mormon criticising the JWs for claiming the exact same thing (special knowledge about God) the Mormons do, then it's impossible to explain it too you. You think your religion is so much different and better, but it's not, it's just not, at least to me.
Also, Mormonism has almost nothing in common with the JWs...I fail to see why people keep trying to link it. Are we a "cult"? Yes. Was early Christianity a cult? Absolutely! In fact, we have much more in common with first century Christianity than any other church I'm aware of.
We keep linking it because the similarities are there. I know a few former Mormons, we have a lot in common. The point is, you don't see it because you are so determined to come here and tell us how much better your religion is, and how stupid the Jehovah's Witnesses are that you don't see the forest for the trees. You have giant blinders on when it comes to your own faith. You are so primed to jump in and defend it, but have you looked at it with a critical eye yourself? Have you been to the ex Mormon sites, and really looked and considered what their arguments are? I wish I had done the same when I was a JW, it would have saved me many wasted years, but of course, I was in a cult and taught to avoid so called "apostate" sites. I am sure your church says the same.
Are we a "cult"? Yes. Was early Christianity a cult? Absolutely! In fact, we have much more in common with first century Christianity than any other church I'm aware of.
At least you admit you are in a cult. Psssttt, it's not a good thing. It could be argued that Christianity itself is a cult, but here are the differences to me: You teach that salvation is only through the Mormon flavor of Christianity, Christianity teaches it is through Jesus Christ. Your church controls your time through many requirements missions, family study night and other activities. You discourage your members from reading anti Mormon literature You must obey the church leaders, to disagree with church leadership is to disagree with God. You have many different, secretive rituals, that set you apart from mainstream Christianity, with no biblical basis.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

From an ex Mormon site:


I need to start by saying Thank you!! truly with all of my heart for being so forthright and diligent in proving to my wonderful wife and I how un-true the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints truly is. It is because of each of you that prompted me to search the Church History Records and Doctrine and find out for myself why and who the church really is and what it is not

More :


It took all of 2 weeks to go from active, temple-attending, tithing payer to having lost my testimony completely and gaining insight into church history that infuriates and disgusts me.
and more

I have been so naive about the church my entire life. I feel sick to my stomach reading about the church history, temple practices, etc. I've always felt bad for people raised into FLDS/Amish/cult situations, and now I feel like I should go cry and pat myself on the back because I'm one of them
Except for the terms, these could be written by any ex JW. I am not trying to rag on the Mormons, I really don't care what you believe, but you can see from my point of view that you are attempting to enlist people who just left a destructive religion to join another version of it. I think the chances of it happening are non existent, but it still sets my teeth on edge. Whether you believe in golden tablets or magical underwear is immaterial. I guess I would have a little more tolerance if you were an ex JW Mormon, but you are not.
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

I'm not looking to convert anyone, just clear up misconceptions. It looks like you could all benefit.


How exactly will we benefit?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

If you look at both religions in a doctrinal way then it's obvious that they have many differences (just as all denominations have) and if the agenda is to create clear water to justify why one is superior than the other in this or that then it can be presented as such. The opposite is also true, we can find common themes, ideas and techniques that both share - when Mormon missionaries are proselyting they are trained to build upon 'common beliefs'. In shared experience is understanding forged. I will forever be in debt to the people on this board for opening my eyes to the common experiences, for deconstructing the 'them' and 'us' mentality that religion requires and fosters. When a JW doubts they must confront the same fears and questions that a Mormon (or any religionist) does. All people are afraid to lose family and/or friends,worry they are wrong and have angered the heavens, find it emotionally exhausting to fight against a culture they are embedded in and all have to come to terms with redefining who they are when for so long they allowed others to do that for them.
When I was doubting it was watching others doubt that gave me the courage to reject a god who had taken over my every waking thought. Those of us who made it out the other side are now survivors with joint stories trying our best to help those still caught in the mental and physical nets of religion. It doesnt matter who the slave owner was or what make of leg irons they used - slavery still tastes the same.
 
jhine
jhine 2 years ago

Not going to get into doctrinal issues , but as a member of the Church of England (Anglican ) I have actually read some Mormon publications when a neighbour was studying to become a Mormon . NOw I think that this had a lot to do with the fact that she was a single mom and the two missionary guys were young and good looking , as noted elsewhere American Mormons all seem to be good looking .
Anyhows I was curious and asked to borrow some of her study literature . It was so garbled and clearly written in cult speak that I could not make out a lot of it , but what I did understand did not sound anything like the Early Church to me . Also I was uncomfortable with the fact that two men were regularly calling on a vunerable young woman , is Mormonism male dominated like Watchtower ?
When you refute accusations made against the Mormon church do you do independant research or do you only go to official Mormom archives ? This is how WT pulls the wool over the eyes of it's members by treating them like mushrooms ( you know , kept in dark and fed on manure , polite version cus I is a lady ).
Jan
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Mormonism is , like all Abrahamic religions, patriarchal. Unlike other religions Mormonism reinforces the male dominance by redefining god as an exalted man married to one or more exalted but scripturally silent women. The Priesthood , the authority to act for and on behalf of god and expressed by ritual, has settled into a male preserve ( though the early church - meaning its members - experimented with female Priesthood expression vestiges of which are preserved in the temple wording and ritual.) All religion is written in gobbleydegook (e.g. Nicene creed!) and mormon pamphlets are no exception. What you read is the result of a very careful 'correlated' message which presents 'milk before meat'. It is impossible to make a rational evaluation of Mormonism via its published proselyting material. This is acknowledged and encouraged by the church which insists that conversion is a spiritual (I.e. emotional) experience not requiring all the facts.
The missionaries are breaking mission rules if they visit a single lady and are male and vice versa without a chaperone. Missionary work is no different to any other high pressure sale scenario. Those missionaries have a quota, they are certain you need their product and they will use every means their 19 year old morality will stretch to to make the sale. They are as emotionally and psychologically trapped as they hope you will be and by and large they love what they are doing.
 
jhine
jhine 2 years ago

thanks Qcmbr . I notice that the original poster has not answered my question about independant research . Are Mormons discouraged from reading anything apart from official publications as are JWs ?
Jan
 

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Topic Summary
i am a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, and i have written a heavily-documented response to the official magazine of the jehovah's witnesses, awake!, that claims to teach what we believe.
i saw an article from last year's watchtower about a guy who had barely been mormon for very long, and obviously did not know what we believe, who was given this magazine by jw's to show him "the truth.
" he claims to have proven to himself that it was true from information on the lds church's website.



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LDS, Catholics, Baptists, and Lutheran churches file amicus brief to support Traditional marriage
by designs 2 years ago 4 Replies latest 2 years ago   social current
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designs
designs 2 years ago

www.4utah.com
You wonder if the Society will join in support of Traditional Marriage and efforts to overturn same sex marriage.
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

I think they'd probably love to, but in the internet age, they know that approximately 30 seconds after filing it, it would be known by every JW & ex-JW with an internet connection.
It would be quite hard, even with their decades of duplicity, to explain how that would be "political neutrality".
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

sir82- Years ago the Society filed a Friends of the Court Brief with the Hare Khrisna to allow Airport witnessing. I don't think many JWs knew, and the Society didn't publisize it.
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 2 years ago

Years ago the Society filed a Friends of the Court Brief with the Hare Khrisna to allow Airport witnessing
Didn't they also file a brief with the Supreme Court during the Jimmy Swaggart case? It's not unprecedented for them to do so, though, as a rule, they try to distance themselves from other religions as much as possible.
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 2 years ago

The only time the Watch Tower files an amicus brief is when it involves their Almighty God, Money. The Jimmy Swaggart case involved sales tax of religious items and literature that were sold. The Hare Krishna case involved the marketing AKA: witnessing.
 

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less door-to-door proselytizing and use social media instead - well for the Mormons
by 3dogs1husband 3 years ago 3 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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3dogs1husband
3dogs1husband 3 years ago

Oh boy - how many will show up here? lol! i found this intresting check it out, copy an pasted as well :heart:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-26/national/40198556_1_missionaries-new-church-members-church-leaders
SALT LAKE CITY — The common image of Mormon missionaries has long been two young men wearing white shirts and ties walking through neighborhoods, knocking door-to-door.
But in a few years, that image may be replaced by one of young Mormons sitting with an iPad, typing messages on Facebook.
Recognizing the world has changed, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints leaders announced Sunday night that missionaries will do less door-to-door proselytizing, and instead, use the Internet to recruit new church members.

The strategy shift reflects the growing importance of social media and people’s preference to connect over sites such as Facebook rather than opening their homes to strangers, church leaders said.
“The way in which we fulfill our responsibilities to share the gospel must adapt to a changing world,” said Elder L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles during a presentation to mission presidents in Provo, Utah, that was broadcast worldwide.
The move is the latest example of the LDS church’s gradual embrace of the digital age, and a recognition that door-to-door proselytizing is not the most effective way to expand church membership, church scholars said.
Many of the details about how the social media work will be carried out by missionaries and monitored by mission presidents have yet to be ironed out, church officials said.
But it’s clear that the new rules mark a significant change in the way the church governs Internet access for missionaries.
Previously, Internet use for missionaries was limited to once a week and only for communicating with friends and family back home or accessing official church sites. Those rules were designed to reduce distractions and temptations for missionaries expected to devote all their attention to serving the Lord, while leaving behind personal affairs.
The announcement comes as the church sends more missionaries around the globe than at any time in history. There has been an unprecedented surge of missionaries since the church’s announced in October that it was lowering the minimum age for missionaries from 21 to 19 for women and from 19 to 18 for men.

 
return of parakeet
return of parakeet 3 years ago

3dogs1husband: "R ecognizing the world has changed, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints leaders announced Sunday night that missionaries will do less door-to-door proselytizing, and instead, use the Internet to recruit new church members. "
With permission for increased use of the Internet, I wonder how many LDS will leave their cult as a result of information they read about it.
3dogs1husband: "Oh boy - how many will show up here?"
They're already here. Cold Steel has been here for several years doing his very best to "educate" us godless heathens about the glory and wonder that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
TheClarinetist
TheClarinetist 3 years ago

Saddest part of this story is its going to date this:



 
3dogs1husband
3dogs1husband 3 years ago

good points ROP! and lol @ the clarinetist!
 

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by Stubborn Disbeliever 3 years ago 38 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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Stubborn Disbeliever
Stubborn Disbeliever 3 years ago

Hello everyone! I'm new here, so I thought I'd start with an introduction and summary of my life, for the most part. I have a tendancy to ramble ridiculously, so bear with me :smile: And this will be all over the place as thoughts take over the keyboard.
I was born a 5th generation JW. I never really "felt" it, but was book smart about it. My grandma taught me SO much about the Bible and JW doctrine. I had all the Bible book names memorized at 3 or 4, I knew all of the apostles, I could recite dozens of scriptures word-for-word, and we played door-to-door on a daily basis. Yeah, can you say deep??! Even with all of that brainwashing, nothing ever clicked. I just went through the motions and told everyone what they wanted to hear. Funny, now that I think about it, no wonder I started running away from home at 3!
I was always rebellious. No matter what I did, I wasn't good enough for my parents. My grandparents praised me until no end, but my parents were another story. My mom always made sure to tell me about how my dad called the wedding off the night before because he found out she didn't want kids. She caved and said she does, and they were married in the Hall the following day. She would let me know that she didn't want kids, and then ended up with ME as a firstborn...independent, loving, and smart to boot! Who would WANT a child like that?! Anyways, my dad wasn't really around. Eventually it all came down to showing off. My dad was making really good money, we had a nice house, nothing fancy. But my mom decided she needed to have the CO and DO stay with us EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY CAME! Plus, we had company over pretty much every weekend. I didn't mind the company, but when I was about 7 or 8 was when the "when are you getting baptized" questions started flooding in. I started struggling in school, depression became a huge part of my life. The attention was only on me when it was that question, otherwise it was about where we were going to book a private room at a fancy restaraunt, who needs another drink, how many people would be going, who needs another drink, let's buy hundreds of dollars worth of mink clothing and accessories, drink refill anyone (?), I'm tired of this room, let's remodel it again even though we JUSt remodeled 3 months ago, can you get me another drink? Yeah, this was constant.
Anyways, the summer I turned 12 I started smoking. I had a friend that lived a mile away, so I'd just say I was going outside to play and book it to her house. We lived in the middle of the woods in the middle of nowhere. After smoking, it just got worse. I had 3 friends in just a couple of years die, one of whom was my best friend since birth, another was my close friend from about 5 years old. My mom had my sister when I was 4, then was surprised to have my brother just before I turned 12. She figured since she didn't want kids and knew how much I loved people in general, that she would just leave him with me. So she picked up a catering job, made her own business catering to the rich who were too busy to cook, and called me my brother's "other mom". Yeah. In a way, I'm glad it happened because I confirmed that I want children...for joy, and to show that children can have a happy childhood. Also, at the time my "boy" best friend died, my "girl" best friend and her family were visiting us. They lived about 2000 miles away and we normally went there since it's where my mom's side of the family lives. Well we were all having a great time. Then I wasn't allowed to talk to my best friend anymore. One died, and one I wasn't allowed to write or call like we did constantly. 14 years later I found out why and we have reconnected again, closer than ever for the past 3 years.
Between all the parties they threw, booze they consumed (seriously I don't know how the liquor companies keep up with them), money they blew, and friendships they destroyed, I can see how they didn't have time for us. They took us on vacations at least once per year, we've been all over the States, Mexico, and Canada. Sure, that was educational, but I only ever asked for one thing: a picnic. A picnic in our back yard. Instead, they would call up some friends, tell them not to worry about the bill, and find a fancy place to eat!
Finally my dad came up to me when I was about to turn 17. He asked me why I'm not baptized. I told him that I don't want to, I'm not ready. He told me that I better get baptized at the next assembly, that I will do exactly as he says or he will make my life a living hell (dead serious those were his words). So I did. He won that one. Within 2 months I lost my virginity to a guy 10 years older than me. Daddy issues, anyone? 3 months after that, everyone found out. My dad tried scaring his info out of me, but I wasnt' going to do it. (In case no one has noticed, he has severe control issues.) I met the guy while taking college courses in lew of my high school classes my junior and senior year, so my dad pulled me out of college. I was only allowed to go to the 2 classes that I needed for credits to get my diploma after I was found skipping school (which I did almost daily for almost 2 years). Either my dad or my grandma would bring me to school, sit in front of the classroom door and wait. Yeah, no joking. I got strep throat one day and my dad was the only one home. He took me to the Dr and they said to go home and rest and take lots of fluids (I got strep at least 6 times every winter, so it wasn't new). I went home, went to my room, changed into pajamas, and went to lay down. My dad comes pounding on my door to tell me to go wash the windows outside (we had a 2 story house, I am TERRIFIED of heights, and I only ever had to wash the inside, but not even that because of my mom's OCD). I told him that I was going to bed. He grabbed the door key, unlocked the door and told me that what I was wearing isn't suitable to wash windows. I told him again that I have strep and I'm going to bed. He grabbed me by my throat and I blacked out. I don't know how long or how I ended up on the floor. But I came to and I was flat on my back on the floor with him straddle-standing over me. He still had me by the throat with my head off the floor. He told me that I will do as he says or there will be consequences. I told him I hurt and I'm sick, the nurse said to rest. He stepped over me, grabbed me by the hair, dragged me through my room, down the hallway, through the kitchen, through the dining room,and to the front door where he picked me up by the hair and threw my to the coat rack. I grabbed my knees and thought I was dead. He then grabbed me by the throat again and picked me up by it, he said that he wishes he could snap my neck and kill me right now. I begged him to just do it. He opened his hand and threw me down and walked away. An hour later my grandma (who lived on the first floor and was home, but denies it) drove me to my class at school. I walked in and my best of friends looked at me and grabbed me. Somehow they just knew. They saw the hand print, they saw my hair, and the red, swollen eyes were kind of a giveaway. I graduated high school 3 months later, within 10 days, my dad shipped me out to another state to live with my other grandma. I didn't know I was being kicked out. I was told 2 weeks to help my great grandma move. Yeah, called to go home for just a little bit to see my brother, I was told I'm not welcome in "his house with his children". Pretty much the end.
My dad is an elder (you can sure tell, huh?), my grandpa was the PO, my grandma was a regular auxillary pioneer, my mom would auxillary 2-3 times per year (when she felt she could put the booze down long enough during the day), my other grandma was a pioneer for a couple decades and is now just a reg aux, my uncles and aunts all reg pioneered, my great grandparents were zone overseers (before it was changed to CO) for a long time, and it just keeps going.
Sorry this is so long. I'm not sure what else to add. This was really really really hard to write, but that is my view of the JWs. Controlling, hurtful, and ready to throw you away in an instant. I'm so happy to have found this place. I have major issues with friends, I seem to pick the worst ones (minus my bff) and get royally screwed in the end. I just went through a whole clean up of "friends" when I found their true colors. I have left my Mormon faith behind (oh yeah, did I mention I got roped into LDS?? Yeah, it was quick...they got me with a couple of hot missionaries and some happy thoughts. I just don't follow it anymore since I don't appreciate being told exactly what I can and cannot do), but that didn't end many friendships, they weren't therein the first place. Anyways, my family has completely disowned me. My mom's mom was ok with me being DF'd when I was kicked out and then left her house 3 weeks after being shipped to her, but when I told her I went Mormon, that was the end. The only family that talked to me was done. So here I am, feeling a bit like Fezzik from Princess Bride, friendless, brainless, hopeless. Well, ok, not hopeless. :smile:
Now about me these days: I have slowly just walked away from the Mormon religion. I do like some of their beliefs, but I'm just not digging religion anymore. I am married to a guy who is as lazy as they come, and we've been married for 6 years, so I put up with it. We have 2 kids (almost 3 and almost 5), that are the light of my life...and sometimes the dark too haha. I love them though and tell them constantly (they roll their eyes now when I yell their name along with "Guess what???! I love yoU!"). I am happy with where I am right now. It's going to be hard the rest of the day thinking about all the things I didn't have room to write down here, but I'm glad I've gone through what I have. I know there will be something great to come of it. Even if it's to help my kids through their lives as it comes, then so be it. Thank you all for reading this insanely long intro. Told you I ramble  I hope to get to know you all and find encouragement, hopefully I can do the same for others.
 
DNCall
DNCall 3 years ago

Hello and welcome! So sorry for what you have been through. Sounds like you have overcome a lot just to be at some level of happiness. I'm glad you're enjoying your kids. Being a good mother is one of the most (if not the most) noble occupations there is.
I think you will enjoy your time here on this board. All the best.
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

Welcome to the forum. A very sobering story! I'm sorry you had to go through that.
 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 3 years ago

Welcome
 
mouthy
mouthy 3 years ago

OOPs I hope It didnt post 2 times.
I am so sorry you have gone through two wrong teaching religions, Mormans, JWS
I suggest you invite the ONLY WAY TRUTH & Life into your heart JESUS CHRIST
But your children should now be where your life is directed to give them the life YOU didnt have
Being the best MUM you can be is really a gift... Also no arguing in front of the little ones with hubby!
That can be a very upsetting life to listen to.
I know I am the Granny on board ( 86 in May),I am telling you this because one of my daughters remembers
me & my old man( since dead)arguing, So Good luck with the rest of your life. Especially loving
your kids ,three of mine died, One is still a JW & mustnt speak to me..
.Because I dont believe Jesus came in 1914 ( Invisably)
But Christ came to me in 1989... At an EX JW convention in Pennsylvania
Children is a gift to have cheriish them
Mouthy
 
ABibleStudent
ABibleStudent 3 years ago

Welcome Stubborn Disbeliever, It sounds like you have been on a roller coaster of a ride most of your life. I am glad that you have been able to keep your humor and hope.
By the way what prompted you to join JWN?
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
 
Ding
Ding 3 years ago

Welcome!
 
finally awake
finally awake 3 years ago

Welcome! I'm sorry your parents are so crappy. Your father deserves jail time for that assault.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Welcome! Believe here whatever you want.
I'll give you a tip about friends. Everyone makes mistakes. I've noticed over the years that the people with good self-esteem dump the duds sooner. So you're just as good at finding friends as anyone else. It's your stickiness that needs work.
 
Gojira_101
Gojira_101 3 years ago

Welcome Stubborn. Your post made me cry.
I don't care who the hell knows that we are friends in real life! I love you sis!
I hope you will finally be able to heal being able to tell your story to others and knowing that your family are the crazy ones who should be in jail. And no family member should shun you because you were a Mormon at one time. Blame the JW's and your parents for screwing you up in the first place! Also you weren't the only one who has suffered at the hands of the JWs and post your thoughts on here whenever you want! I have found a lot of comfort in the fact that I am part of a group of people from various belief systems and various reasons why they left, but these people on here can truly understand the damage and hurt you have experienced.
P.S You will run out of posts quick so try to consolidate them :smile: I learned the hard way
G
 
neverscreamagain
neverscreamagain 3 years ago

Welcome-Stubborn Disbeliever!
And of course- Peace!
 
Newly Enlightened
Newly Enlightened 3 years ago

Hey Kiddo, Glad you're here with us. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger and I hope your parents get everything they deserve.
I know what you mean about the booze. During one of their visits, I went in a liquor store with them and saw them drop $600 just on booze.
Love you and I know how hard this was to write, but maybe you can heal from here on out.
 
Stubborn Disbeliever
Stubborn Disbeliever 3 years ago

Wow! I went to take a nap to ease the migraine and, wow! Thank you all. I really appreciate all of your kind words. I definitely didn't put in most things, but jsut the biggest ones that stuck out to me right now. Thankfully I have my bff back and "mom" and "dad"  who lead me here. I was hesitant about joining at first because I was sure my JW past was fine since I had no JW connections, but after visiting the site almost daily for just over a month, I knew I had to join. I was finally approved today after a long wait. Guess I didn't realize how good (in a sadistic way ha) it would feel to get it all out. Oh, and the $600 on booze was normal. They always made trips to the city to stock up, plus they had trips in the little town by us that they'd buy from AND their home made beer and wine. The amount of alcohol even makes MY liver shake in fear...and I have only a small percentage of their tolerance!
But, again, thank you all so much for that welcome and the kind words.
 
Brother of the Hawk
Brother of the Hawk 3 years ago

Welcome, Stubborn Disbeliever. I am glad you have finally posted. I know how hard it is to let it all out, now the healing begins. This young lady's family is truly a peice of work. I could also tell you stories, but will leave it for another time.
When your dad choked you to the point of passing out, in my book that is attempted murder!!!!!! That is rightous conduct for a elder. Yah right!!!
Just to let you all know, if you have not figured it out already, Newly Enlightened and I are her "mom" and "dad" now. We have tried to help some, but Gogira 101 has been the biggest source of help. Keep it up Kiddo! We are all in this together, and together we will make it out alive.
And when it is appropriate this adds to the bigger and most unbelieveable story, we have yet to tell.
I truly hope you can find the love you have missed out on, and I am glad to see you have broken the mold, continue to love your own kids and treat them as gold, the gold your parents never gave you.
I love you!
Affectionatelly, Brother of the Hawk [I will surrender my mind no more, forever]
 
TotallyADD
TotallyADD 3 years ago

Welcome to the board Stubborn Disbeliever. Good name. I am so sorry what you went through. I have know many elders, Co's and Do's who drank alot. I knew one CO couple when it was 3:30 every afternoon they had to have a drink. I use to call it beer:30. Time does heal many things but the things we go through as children take along time to get over. You can get over it only if you work real hard at it. If you think you may need help go get it. It is all up to you and not anyone else. Thank you for your story and take care. Totally ADD
 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 3 years ago

Welcome. Sit back and enjoy the ride. You will learn many things during this next phase of your education.
At some point you need to answer the question - so what are you going to do with the rest of my life? The world offers endless opportunities you should take advantage of as many of these opportunities as possible. Don't consider your past a limitation to the possibilities.
 
Bungi Bill
Bungi Bill 3 years ago

Firstly, welcome - and please understand that you are very welcome!
Sadly, alcohol abuse is an all to common occurrence amongst the JWs. (After all, "The Bible says that Jesus drank wine, doesn't it!") I was in introduced to drinking by the "brother" who "brought me into The Lie The Truth." Unfortunately, I proved to be a quick learner!
For a long time, I did subscribe to the fiction that "Christianity" (i.e. JW-ism) made for a better type of person than the average "Worldling."
Only after breaking free from the Borg some 19 years ago did I finally realize that I knew a lot of much better people before I ever got involved with the JWs. Theirs is not a family friendly religion, it hardly promotes good parenting (although they would have you believe otherwise), and is definitely not the ideal environment in which to bring up children. Even so, your father sounds like he was in separate league again when it comes to poor parenting! However, that he continued to remain as an elder comes as little surprize.
Anyway, once again, welcome - and be assured of a supportive environment on this board, any time you wish to talk, and about any subject.
Bill.
 
Quandry
Quandry 3 years ago

Welcome.
Good that stubborn is part of your name. It will serve you well as you make some new goals in life.
You've been through alot, but have the joy of some really caring friends.
Glad you are here with us.


 
clarity
clarity 3 years ago

Dear Miss Stubborn ... you are awesome.
>
Never forget that.
>
You have life by the tail now ... hang on & don't let go.
>
In spite of your family background, you had an intrinsic
sense of right & wrong, don't lose that.
>
My eyes tear when I see Gojira & Newly & Bro of the Hawk,
gather around you.....because that looks like true love.
>
May we all receive that kind of love!
>
A huge welcome to you ... the journey just gets better!

clarity
 
Gypsy Sam
Gypsy Sam 3 years ago

Welcome. Touching details. It's always fun to be around the drinking JW's, for a time. You have the rest of your life ahead of you. I tell myself that every day. Carpe Diem!
 

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Newbie
by Stubborn Disbeliever 3 years ago 38 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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Black Sheep
Black Sheep 3 years ago

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.
 
Stubborn Disbeliever
Stubborn Disbeliever 3 years ago

Wow! I'm overwhelmed by all the welcomes! Thank you all SO much! Yes, I'm very fortunate to have a few around me that have helped. They have always been dear to my heart. I didn't know why we lost contact until 3 years ago, and it all made sense. But now I have them again and see how true friends are family. I can't wait to get a little more time on here to join in on the conversations! It's great to meet all of you and to hopefully get to know more of you a little better. Such a wonderful thing, this site. It all makes sense why JW never "clicked" in my heart or my head.
 
Comatose
Comatose 3 years ago

Welcome :smile: happy to have you.
lots of us new ones on here. I hope you keep your peace and happiness. Let your children fill that void. I wish you the best. Hang in there.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 years ago

(((hugs))))) Welcome.
 
steve2
steve2 3 years ago

Welcome stubborn disbeliever - I wouldn't wish what you've been through for anyone, but it has made you who you are and it would be a shame if you did not learn a lot of good things about yourself as a result.
I genuinely believe that the day I was disfellowshipped from my local Kingdom Hall was the very day I at last grew up and began to assume the normal responsibilities of being an adult.
I may have felt hurt at the treatment I received from the elders but how could I ever deplore the very treatment that caused me to look at myself and at them and realize I needed to grow up. From that day until the present I can honestly say I have had no urge to return to play school (i.e., the kingdom hall).
All human strength to you as you journey through life. So pleased your children are the light of your life!
 
Fernando
Fernando 3 years ago

A hearty warm welcome Stubborn Disbeliever!
May you make many fine online friends here on JWN.
Most of the folk here are very knowledgeable and kind. Simply ignore the odd bad apple and you'll be fine.
Thank you for sharing your story. I believe it is far more common than many of us realise. The real story is never printed in the Watchtower.
It is ironic that those on JWN know far more about the Watchtower than all their die-hard members combined.
There is a great future beyond the dysfunction of the Watchtower no matter how many generations deep. (I was 3rd gen and in for more than 4 decades, with family dysfunction others find very hard to just listen to).
Greetings, blessings, peace and love to you and yours
Fernando
South East Queensland, Australia
PS - Personally I now identify as SBNR (Spiritual But Not Religious).
 
Captain Obvious
Captain Obvious 3 years ago

Where does your dad live now? I'll pick up a baseball bat on the way...
 
Captain Obvious
Captain Obvious 3 years ago

Where does your dad live now? I'll pick up a baseball bat on the way...
 
Stubborn Disbeliever
Stubborn Disbeliever 3 years ago

I'm all sentimental and about to cry....then Captain Obvious posts. I am busting up laughing, thank you!
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 3 years ago

Captain Obvious said: Where does your dad live now? I'll pick up a baseball bat on the way...

ADCMS: Now, now Captain Obvious. Show a little compassion. Her dad needs professional help.

I'll give Stubborn Disbeliever the name of a good proctologist... her dad obviously needs the help of someone who deals with a**holes all day long.
 
flipper
flipper 3 years ago

STUBBORN DISBELIEVER- A very warm welcome to you for being here friend. Thanks for sharing your story. You've been through an absolute horror story and what's incredible is that you are not alone ! Many thousands have lived what you went through and post here on this board. And many have become my good friends and vice versa.
Being a born-in JW and raised from birth like yourself ( I exited 9 years ago at age 44 ) - I totally understand how controlled you were by the control freaks in your family. Especially your elder dad who should have been thrown into jail in my opinion for physically abusing you. I had a dominant controlling JW dad who I am still not close to even now when he's almost 88 yrs.old.
I just want you to know that we are here for you as a friend and a support, O.K. ? Anytime you'd like to chat with my wife or me on the phone, just PM me your number and we would be able to talk. Or I could PM you our number and if you feel like calling feel free to. Take care, Peace out, mr. Flipper
 
flipper
flipper 3 years ago

STUBBORN DISBELIEVER- Please check your private mail here on the board. I just sent you me and my wife's phone number and contact info. Feel free to call anytime. Have a great day ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 
Thor
Thor 3 years ago

Hello and welcome
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

Welcome stubborn.. I'm glad you've found a REAL family, ones who will love you as you deserve to be loved. Jesus told us we would gain true brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. Blood means nothing without love and the ones that truly love us are the ones that are our family.
Enjoy your children, they are so precious and take comfort in your new 'family'.
 
whathappened
whathappened 3 years ago

Good for you, getting out of not one, but two cults, and at such an early age.
Your father belongs in jail, by the way.
So sorry your parents were such hypocrites.
 
SAHS
SAHS 3 years ago

Welcome Stubborn Disbeliever! You’ve come to the right kind of place here.
As a lot of people come to realize, there are really two sets of standards which JW elders live by: the standards they’re supposed to live by; i.e., the standards by which the WT claims elders live by – kind, caring, “a hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm” (Isaiah 32:2), etc. – which certainly would include living by the “law of the land” (certainly not assaulting their own child!) – and then there’s the actual standards which they live by . . . which, as we all know, are not the same thing.
The standards which JW elders follow, as I’ve found, are, put simply: whichever ones they think they can get away with. (Don’t bother looking for the love which is supposed to exist in all of this – many elders just conveniently toss that out the window. Yes, as long as they tow the WT line, that's apparently all that counts for them.)
 
Lozhasleft
Lozhasleft 3 years ago

Hello and welcome SD. I'm so sorry you had to go through all that with your family, but glad to know you and your children are now free. Well done.
Loz x
 
SeekingTheRealTruth
SeekingTheRealTruth 3 years ago

Welcome! Thanks for sharing your story. :smile: hopefully you will find many "brothers" and "sisters" in addition to a "mom and dad"
 
problemaddict
problemaddict 3 years ago

Its amazing to me that so many here have similar stories. Your dad, JW elder or otherwise, was a bad person. I don't know how afather could treat their child like that.
You will break the cycle with your children for sure, and welcome to the board. All are welcome. In, out, fading, afraid, and all else.
 

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Topic Summary
i'm new here, so i thought i'd start with an introduction and summary of my life, for the most part.
i have a tendancy to ramble ridiculously, so bear with me :) and this will be all over the place as thoughts take over the keyboard.. i was born a 5th generation jw.
i never really "felt" it, but was book smart about it.



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JWS vs LDS
by tresdecu 3 years ago 11 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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tresdecu
tresdecu 3 years ago

I came across a mormon "sisters" blog...reading through some of her missionary experiences, it sounded so much like JW pioneer "sis" relating hers. Just swap out some of the Cult-language words and it's suddenly a JW experience of sharing "bible truths" with some poor worldly sap.
Here's an taste of it:
1) We were also led by the Spirit this week to a former investigator's home. Her name is Aimee. We had penciled her in as a back up for Tuesday morning but since our appointment with a less active went through we didn't end up checking on Aimee. That afternoon we had planned to work in Schenectady but Sister Stacey just wasn't feeling it. She was like, "I really feel like we should stay in Glenville. We've worked Schenectady the past few days." So we said a prayer and told Heavenly Father we are not going to Schenectady but we're going to work in Glenville and to help us readjust our plans to be led to someone in need of our message." We decided to check on a less active and on our drive there, we came across construction that caused us to have to take a detour. We took the detour and we led right down Aimee's street. I said, "Let's stop at Aimee's and maybe she'll be home and we'll be able to meet her." We got out of the car, knocked on Aimee's door and she came. At first she was confused because she knew the other two sisters well. We introduced ourselves and she let us in. Over eight times she said, "I was just having one of those really sad afternoons, and then I heard a knock and it was you." She even called her husband at work and said, "You know how I was having a sad day? The sisters just showed up and we've been talking and I feel a lot better." Cool huh!?
2) One couple, Ryan and Angie live here in the Burg. They have two sons, a 4 year old and a 14 month old. They were raised Catholic and still attend church when they can. They brought up that they were getting their baby baptized into the Catholic church on the 29th. We talked about baptism and asked them why their son needs to be baptized. They didn't really know, but just that it's a tradition. It was neat to teach them a little about the significance of being baptized, the promises made, and the priesthood authority. We didn't get into it too in depth. I wanted to pull out Moroni 8 about children being born without sin, but it probably would've been too much. They are like spiritual babies right now! ha ha And so precious and golden to us so we didn't want to give them more than they can handle. I know the Mom felt that what we were saying was true. She started talking about having to pay for his little baptism too. Sad huh? I held back my feelings of how ridiculous that is. Ha ha. We told her no one is paid in the church we are members of and she loved that. After all of that small talk we started with a hymn and prayer and taught them the message of the restoration. I love teaching people these truths for the first time. How lucky we are as missionaries to testify to people that God has called a prophet again and restored his priesthood power to bind their family together forever! The spirit was very strong. We're meeting with them again this week. We committed them to read 3 Nephi 17 when the Savior blesses the children. We were able to testify of God's love for their children and how He wants them to live with him again as an eternal family.
 
Kojack57
Kojack57 3 years ago

Satan works in mysterious ways whether its with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Satan blinds the minds of the unbelievers so the glorious good news about the Christ don't shine through.
Kojack
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 years ago

I remember when I was in the cult I thought Mormons were crazy and we were so much better. Now I realize the culture was just the same.
Sometimes the ex Mormons will drop by to check out the ex JW sites. I was wrote a poem about being an exJW called the ABCs of Jehovah's Witnesses. A ex Mormon saw it and wrote his own version. Kind of made me happy to thing my experience as a JW helped an ex Mormon.
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 3 years ago

Look for this experience to appear in the next WT study edition!
 
Emery
Emery 3 years ago

At least they have their own state, universities, and sports teams.
 
Doubting Bro
Doubting Bro 3 years ago

They'll need to change the experience slightly to include Andre
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 years ago

JW's versus LDS ? no contest, LDS is far superior, not only does it have its own Unis and teams as above mentioned, but it is so much ahead of JW's.
Who started first ? Who had the Elder arrangement first ? Who had Family Worship night first ? In fact which has more members and is altogether slicker ?
The similarities between all the major cults is amazing, the methods of control of mind and behaviour are so similar it is as if the leadership of the WT the LDS the SAD's etc all went to the same night school course to learn how to do it.
 
Fernando
Fernando 3 years ago

In cultdom, two of the leading contenders in a race to the bottom...
 
Bonnie_Clyde
Bonnie_Clyde 3 years ago

About 5 years ago I told a couple of LDS elders who stopped at our house that if I had to choose between JW and LDS, I would choose LDS. They thought they had a convert. I forgot to tell them that I had other choices--like choosing no religion at all. But they stopped to see us on a weekly basis for awhile and talked and prayed with Clyde and me. We were OK with it because we learned a lot about their religion, but then came the thrust to attend their church. That's when we stopped.
They must keep a file on us because every time they change their elders they come out specially to visit us. Last week Clyde and I sat on the front porch, and Clyde ended up doing most of the talking. I still see myself when I was their young age, pioneering, and I thought I had the absolute truth. No one could have convinced me otherwise, and there's no way to convince these two guys now.
 
cobaltcupcake
cobaltcupcake 3 years ago

I remember my mom had a return visit on a woman who was studying with LDS. Mom felt a real need to "save" this woman from becoming a Mormon. Six of one, half dozen of the other. I can't remember who "won."

http://scottleblog.wordpress.com
The Odd Life of Jehovah's Witnesses
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

The closeness of the shared LDS/JW cult experience is one thing that draws me here. This forum was a fundamental part of my awareness that the LDS world was not very unique at all.
 
james_woods
james_woods 3 years ago

I am not so sure that there is really all that much similarity, except that both are pretty well out of the mainstream:
The JWs are absolutely driven by a fascination with the "Jehovah-God" and that name. The Mormons at least name themselves "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". References to Christianity in JW ordinary worship is always subjected to the Jehovah fetish.
The JWs are also completely consumed by an obsession with the end of the world, "Armageddon", "Great Tribulation", and setting false prophetic dates for all of these. I have not seen the Mormons doing anything of the sort.
The JWs are, again, different because of their absolute fear and loathing for anything "of the World". No college, no politics, no involvement with community, holding mainstream jobs is suspect, and so on. The Mormons seem very active in trying to blend in with general society.
One of the primary distinguishing factors of the JWs is the deadly "blood doctrine". The Mormons have nothing of the sort - (no alcohol, no coffee does not even start to come close)
Perhaps the closest parallel would be the Mormons door to door ministry (which Witnesses also do) - but here again there are differences; the main one being that Mormons do this as a voluntary "missionary" and it is viewed as an expression of service to their church, not so much at all as an effort to gain recruits; certainly not as a warning to the world of some impending end.
As has been noted - both JWs and Mormons have some VERY ODD doctrinal teachings. Very odd at least to people who have applied independent critical thought to both teaching systems. But then, so do practically every other major or minor religion you can name.
 

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Public reproof and Df announcements, has it kept the organization clean?
by jam 4 years ago 2 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower child-abuse
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jam
jam 4 years ago

Let,s be trueful. Compared to other religious
organization as A whole is it morally cleaner. My
thought, that policy (public announcements have not
made any difference). Excluding the real fanatical cult
groups, I know of no other group, maybe besides the
LDS(Mormoms) that practices DF or public reproof.
The church I was raised in and occsional attend today,
I notice if A wrong have been comitted, the minster might
mention, we need to pray for Brother or Sister so-and so.
The congregation, all they know is Brother or Sister so-and-so
needs our prayer. That,s it. And the people there are just as
moral as the KH I attened. And I may add, people that I have
met that do not go to any church the same is true. So all the
DF's and reproof have not made JW,s organization any cleaner
then the church down the street from you.
 
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb 4 years ago

NO it doesn't.
Why?
Because they're no different than any other religion since the dawn of man.
 
00DAD
00DAD 4 years ago

Apparently not.

Rug
 

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I started a new relationship
by greenhornet 4 years ago 23 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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greenhornet
greenhornet 4 years ago

I have a girl friend that I like very much. We have been together about a month now. We talk about religion some times and I tell her I am Christian and leave it at that. (I have been a JW born in and left 15 years back) I found out that she has been going to the Morman church fo a year. I don't have a proplem with that. However I am slowly meeting her friends from her church. They seem very nice. (of course so are JWs).
My question is are the mormans sneaky like JWs and love bomb you to join. And can I still date and be good frinds with her because I will tell her I will never join the LDS church. I dont want to come from one cult to go in another. Thx
 
Joliette
Joliette 4 years ago

Good for you, wish you the best!
 
talesin
talesin 4 years ago

My question is are the mormans sneaky like JWs and love bomb you to join.

Yes.

t
 
greenhornet
greenhornet 4 years ago

Thanks T. I need more knowlege on the mormans, I dont want to see my girl friend go to a cult.
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 4 years ago

Google's a good start.
 
Pams girl
Pams girl 4 years ago

Good luck with your girl, be happy!
 
transhuman68
transhuman68 4 years ago

Oh Lordy! Just join an ex-LDS forum, and ask them what you should expect.
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 4 years ago

greenhornet, if you decide to post at ex-LDS forum, can we see the thread over there? Maybe we can give you some additional feedback after you get some comments from ex-LDS. Good Luck!
 
sizemik
sizemik 4 years ago

I dont want to come from one cult to go in another. Thx
Answer . . . Just join an ex-LDS forum, and ask them what you should expect. . . . transhuman68
That's by far the best advice you can get . . . please do it! You could start here . . .
http://www.exmormon.org/
 
InterestedOne
InterestedOne 4 years ago

My question is are the mormans sneaky like JWs and love bomb you to join.
Here's one thing I learned from an old acquaintance when he became Mormon and which I have heard is a common part of how they recruit. After he became friends with them, they asked him to pray about the Book of Mormon. My old acquaintance said he did it and felt some warm feelings that let him know that it is true. I think this is a tactic that shows up in various forms in various cultish groups to get people to believe things that would otherwise seem crazy.
 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 4 years ago

Proceed with caution. Ask her a few pointed questions about the Book of Mormon, maybe along the lines of "Why isn't there a single shred of archeological evidence supporting the stories in the book?" If she freaks out then she is probably already under mind control. They treat that book like witnesses treat the publications, like it is the word of God himself.
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 4 years ago

Greenhornet, I found a Ex Mormon Forum for you, http://www.exmormonforums.com/
 
Greybeard
Greybeard 4 years ago

Ask her how she feels about you having multiple wives as Mormons do. If she is ok with it, JOIN!
Hey wait a minute... I didn't say that
 
greenhornet
greenhornet 4 years ago

Thanks every one. I,ll check out the foram.
I love the internet. Powerfull tool. I love this foraum because I have a lot in comen with you guys. Even I never meet you. Well most of you.
 
Ding
Ding 4 years ago

Sorry to tell you the LDS is just as much a cult as the WTS... both started in the USA in the 1800s... still going.
 
straightshooter
straightshooter 4 years ago

Glad you found a girl friend, but be careful. The Mormons are just like the JW org. They will love you, but are very controlling. They have also have some very weird beliefs.
 
nateb
nateb 4 years ago

Yes. Many eerie similarities between LDS and JW. An important question to ask yourself is what's she looking for in the LDS church? That will tell you a lot about where she's coming from. Good luck.
 
greenhornet
greenhornet 4 years ago

Wow, Holy Sh*T, looking glass of Joeseph Smith. They are worse than the JWs. I can not join the foraum. Can not read the security code.
I just read the threads. I dont know what to say to my girl friend. I am in shock.
 
greenhornet
greenhornet 4 years ago

Re: met a girl freind I hope this works. This is the exmorman foraum of my question.
Enjoy
 
rebel8
rebel8 4 years ago

Here's a few things to know.
 

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I started a new relationship
by greenhornet 4 years ago 23 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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Ding
Ding 4 years ago

You might be interested in Walter Martin's book The Maze of Mormonism.
He goes into detail about Mormon history and doctrines.
That would suggest a number of areas for your further investigation.
 
greenhornet
greenhornet 4 years ago

Thanks everyone. I just watched South Park All about Mormons. It was good. Now I am an expert on the subject.
 
lostandconfused
lostandconfused 4 years ago



 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

Go look at the ex-mormon boards. You will see enough resemblance to scare you away.
 

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Topic Summary
i have a girl friend that i like very much.
we have been together about a month now.
we talk about religion some times and i tell her i am christian and leave it at that.



Related Topics
KiddingMe
Police: Teen killed in N.Y. church assault wanted out
by KiddingMe 5 months ago
Saved_JW
Watchtower Paralells Mormonism
by Saved_JW 4 months ago
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth 25 days ago
JakeM2012
The extent that desperate cults will go to keep control of their youth
by JakeM2012 5 months ago
Captain Schmideo2
This sounds suspiciously like the actions of another religion we know of...
by Captain Schmideo2 6 months ago



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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-10-2011 WT Study (CREATION)
by blondie 5 years ago 41 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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blondie
blondie 5 years ago

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-10-11 WT Study (JANUARY 15, 2011, pages 13-17)(CREATION)

Review comments will be headed by COMMENTS
WT material from today's WT will be in black
Quotes from other sources will headed by QUOTES
w = Watchtower
g = Awake
jv = Proclaimers book

EXCELLENT GENERAL WEBSITE : www.jwfacts.com

Bible translations www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible
WT publications www.strictlygenteel.co.uk
WT child abuse www.silentlambs.org
Blood issue www.ajwrb.org
United Nations http://www.randytv.com/secret/unitednations.htm

Also posted on

http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com
www.jehovahs-witness.net
http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/

H OLY S PIRIT
— A T W ORK IN C REATION !
“By the word of Jehovah the heavens themselves were made,
and by the spirit of his mouth all their army.”—PS. 33:6.

OPENING COMMENTS

So where does the WTS get their scientific information from? Do they have a staff of spiritual scientists at Bethel who filter out the wrong information as God’s holy spirit reveals it?

START OF ARTICLE

1, 2. (a) How has man’s knowledge of the heavens
and the earth increased over time? (b) What question
requires an answer?

WHEN Albert Einstein published his
special theory of relativity in 1905,
he and many other scientists believed that
the universe consisted of just one galaxy
—our Milky Way. How greatly they underestimated
the size of the universe! It is now thought that
the heavens contain over 100 billion galaxies,
some consisting of billions of stars. As ever
more sensitive telescopes are used on earth
or put into orbit around it, the number of known galaxies
keeps climbing.


COMMENTS


I wonder what the WTS in 1905 felt about how many galaxies there were in their scientific magazine…the Golden Age?


Is the WTS sure that there are now 100 billion galaxies by relying on the same scientific community?


http://www.seanet.com/~raines/intro.html




2 Just as scientific knowledge of the heavens
was limited in 1905, so was knowledge
of the earth. True, people living a century
ago knew more than their forebears. Today,
however, the beauty and complexity of life
and the terrestrial systems that sustain it are
far better understood than they were at that
time. And we will undoubtedly learn much
more about the earth and the heavens in
the years ahead. But especially is it appropriate
to ask, How did all of this come to be in
the first place? The answer to that question
can be known only because the Creator has
revealed it through the Holy Scriptures.


COMMENTS


Far better understood through the efforts of the scientific community, not the WTS.


So does the WTS have a scientific viewpoint or is the Bible now a scientific book?


The Miracle of Creation


3, 4. How did God create the universe, and how do
his works glorify him?


3 How the universe came to be is explained
in the Bible’s opening words: “In
the beginning God created the heavens
and the earth.” (Gen. 1:1) Starting with no
preexisting material, Jehovah used his holy
spirit—his powerful active force—to create
the physical heavens, the earth, and everything
else in the universe. A human craftsman
uses his hands and tools to make
things, but God sends forth holy spirit to accomplish
his great works.


COMMENTS


No pre-existing material—but perhaps energy—material back and forth energy.


So God doesn’t use the tools of science.




4 The Scriptures figuratively refer to holy
spirit as God’s “finger.” (Luke 11:20;
Matt. 12:28) And “the work of his hands”
—what Jehovah created by means of his
holy spirit—brings him great glory. “The
heavens are declaring the glory of God,”
sang the psalmist David, “and of the work of
his hands the expanse is telling.” (Ps. 19:1)
Indeed, physical creation testifies to the
awesome power of God’s holy spirit. (Rom.
1:20) How does it do so?


COMMENTS


Did you know that Mormons (LDS) believe that God literally has fingers, hands, disregarding the scripture that “flesh and blood” will not inherit the kingdom of heaven?


David was a physical creation of God through Adam…did he use his life to show God’s glory by taking a man’s wife and then having that man killed to cover up his sin?




God’s Limitless Power


5. Illustrate the creative power of Jehovah’s holy
spirit.


5 Our unimaginably vast universe gives
evidence that Jehovah’s power and energy
are inexhaustible. (Read Isaiah 40:26.)
Modern science is aware that matter can be
changed into energy and energy into matter.
Our sun, a star, provides an example of
matter being turned into energy. Every second,
the sun converts about four million
tons of matter into sunlight and other forms
of radiant energy. The small fraction of that
energy that reaches us is sufficient to sustain
life on the earth. Obviously, tremendous
power and energy were required to create
not just the sun but also all the other billions
of stars. Jehovah possesses the energy
that was needed—and much more.


COMMENTS


Has the WTS proved yet in this article that God exists?


But does the WTS trust “modern science”? When it conveniently supports the WTS ideas?


Does possessing tremendous power prove the goodness of a being?


6, 7. (a) Why can we say that God has used his
holy spirit in an orderly way? (b) What shows that
the universe did not come about by chance?


6 We are surrounded by evidence that God
used his holy spirit in a very orderly way. To
illustrate: Suppose you had a box containing
balls of different colors. You shake the
box, thoroughly mixing the balls. Then you
throw them out onto the ground all at once.
Would you expect the balls to land grouped
according to color—the blue balls together,
the yellow likewise, and so on? Of course
not! Uncontrolled actions always tend to result
in less order, not more. That fact is accepted
as a fundamental law of nature.*


*See pages 24 and 25 of the book Is There a Creator
Who Cares About You?


http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/book-review-of-is-there-creator-who.html


COMMENTS


Notice that the WTS is focused on things being created in an “orderly” way, several times in this article…because to the WTS “order” equals an intelligent creator.


TEND to result?


Fact accepted by whom…law of NATURE…not God?




7 Yet, when we raise our eyes and telescopes heavenward,
what do we see? We find an immense and highly ordered system of
galaxies, stars, and planets, all moving with
great precision. This could not be the product
of chance or of an unplanned and uncontrolled
cosmic accident. So we must ask,
What force was originally employed in order
to produce our orderly universe? We humans
are limited in our ability to identify
that force through scientific observation
and experimentation alone. However, the
Bible has identified it as God’s holy spirit,
The most powerful force in the universe. The
psalmist sang: “By the word of Jehovah the
heavens themselves were made, and by the
spirit of his mouth all their army.” (Ps. 33:6)
And with our eyes, we can see only a very
small part of that “army” of stars as we survey
the night sky!


COMMENTS


“highly ordered”
“not the product of chance…unplanned…uncontrolled”
“orderly universe”
Whose “scientific observation and experimentation”
Is big better?




Holy Spirit and the Earth


8. How much do we really know about Jehovah’s
works?


8 What we presently understand about
nature is infinitesimal when compared with
all there is to learn. As for the scope of
our knowledge of God’s creative works, the
faithful man Job concluded: “Look! These
are the fringes of his ways, and what a whisper
of a matter has been heard of him!” (Job
26:14) Centuries later, King Solomon, an
astute observer of Jehovah’s creation, declared:
“Everything [God] has made pretty
in its time. Even time indefinite he has put
in their heart, that mankind may never find
out the work that the true God has made
from the start to the finish.”—Eccl. 3:11;
8:17.


COMMENTS


Understand about NATURE is infinitesimal (who does the WTS ‘quote’ jw scientists?)


And where did Solomon’s “astute” observation lead him?


Time indefinite…in their heart—WTS interpretation


9, 10. God used what force when he created the
earth, and what were some developments during
the first three creative days?


9 Jehovah has, however, revealed essential
details about his works. For instance, the
Scriptures inform us that God’s spirit was
active on the earth aeons ago. (Read Genesis
1:2.) At that time, there was no dry land, r seen in the universe
no light, and apparently no breathable air at
the earth’s surface.


COMMENTS


Revealed to whom and how?
Aeons—creative day---how long?
“apparently”---doesn’t the Bible say or some WTS approved scientist?


Stars: Anglo-Australian Observatory/David Malin Images


10 The Bible goes on to describe what God
did during a series of creative days. These are
not 24-hour days but are epochs. On the
first creative day, Jehovah caused light to begin
to appear at the earth’s surface. That
process would be completed when the sun
and the moon later became discernible
from the earth. (Gen.1:3, 14) On the second
day, the atmosphere began to be formed.
(Gen. 1:6) Earth then had water, light, and
air but still no dry land. Early on the third
creative day, Jehovah used his holy spirit to
produce dry land, perhaps harnessing powerful
geologic forces to push continents up
out of the global sea. (Gen.1:9) There would
be other astounding developments on the
third day and during later creative periods.


COMMENTS


Creative days—7,000 years no longer since 1989 (7)
Why no mention of Jesus, the co-creator?
Vail proposition used by WTS


Holy Spirit and Living Creatures


11. What is demonstrated by the complexity, symmetry,
and beauty of living things?


11 God’s spirit also produced highly organized
works in the biological sphere of creation.
By means of his holy spirit, during
creative days three through six, God created
an astounding variety of plants and animals.
(Gen. 1:11, 20-25) Thus, living things
provide countless examples of complexity,
symmetry, and beauty that bespeak design
of the highest level.


COMMENTS


“highly organized”
Where’s Jesus during this creation?
“complexity, symmetry….bespeak design (intelligent)


12. (a) DNA performs what function? (b) What
should we learn from the continuing successful
function of DNA?


12 Consider DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid),
one of the chemical mechanisms involved
in passing on the characteristics of organisms
from one generation to the next. All
living things on the earth—including microbes,
grass, elephants, blue whales, and
humans—reproduce using DNA. Although How is DNA common
the earth’s creatures differ widely, the code
that controls many of their inherited characteristics
is very stable and has served
to maintain the distinction between basic
kinds of creatures down through the ages.
According to Jehovah God’s purpose, the
earth’s various organisms therefore continue
to perform their functions in the complex
web of life. (Ps. 139:16) This very effective,
orderly arrangement provides further
evidence that creation is the work of God’s
“finger,” or holy spirit.


COMMENTS


So how does the WTS know anything about DNA…from the Bible, revelation from God”


Maintained distinction—between basic---how many animals on the ark?


“orderly arrangement” = further evidence…God’s finger


The Climax of Earthly Creation


13. How did God create man?


13 After aeons had passed and God had
produced innumerable animate and inanimate
works, the earth was no longer
“formless and waste.” Yet, Jehovah had not
finished using his spirit for creative purposes.
He was about to produce his highest
earthly creation. Toward the end of the sixth
creative day, God created man. How did Jehovah
do so? By using his holy spirit and
the elements of the earth.—Gen. 2:7.


COMMENTS


When was Adam created…sixth creative day…when was Eve, the same. Humans are living in the seventh creative day…the basis of 6,000 years of human history ending in 1975 and 1,000 years for the millennium needed, jws felt that the millennium would start in 1975.




14. In what important way do humans differ from
animals?


14 Genesis 1:27 states: “God proceeded to
create the man in his image, in God’s image
he created him; male and female he created
them.” Being made in God’s image means
that Jehovah created us with the ability to
display love, to exercise free will, and even to
establish a personal relationship with our
Creator. Hence, our brains differ greatly
from those of animals. Specifically, Jehovah
designed the human brain so that we could
go on joyfully learning about him and his
works forever.


COMMENTS


Was woman created in God’s image…yes, with a WTS twist.
The WTS felt that the brains of men and women differed.


Awake! 1967 August 22 p.27, 28
The apostle Paul, in giving instructions on congregational meetings of Christians, stated, among other things: "I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12) Today many religious organizations take exception to these words of Paul. In fact, we find more and more women being ordained to Protestant pulpits. Just why did the apostle state this rule?
This rule is based on a principle that governs the relations between the sexes, namely: "The head of every man i s the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God," (1 Cor. 11:3) The logic of headship must be apparent to all. If two or more intelligent persons are to cooperate, there must be organization, and for organization to be successful there must be a head. That Jehovah God, the Father, is the Head of his Son, Jesus Christ, is obvious; also, that his Son should be the head of his congregation. But not so readily appreciated is the statement that man exercise headship over the woman and that therefore woman should not exercise authority over the man.
However, the facts show that the headship of a man is both somatically and psychologically sound and in the best interests of all concerned, even as we shall see. Thus a leading authority on the human body (soma), Gray's Anatomy (1966 Edition), tells the interesting fact that as regards the human skull there is no difference between the male and the female until the time of puberty; but then as adulthood is reached the difference becomes more and more apparent. The female skull is lighter and its cranial capacity is about 10 percent smaller than that of a male, even as is the rest of the anatomy. The contour of the female skull is also more rounded and the facial bones are smoother. Apparently, with the lines of beauty goes less rugged strength.
True, mere brain size in itself is not as important as brain quality, but where the quality is the same the larger brain size has an advantage. Thus Science News, April 1, 1967, told of twenty African children who were so extremely undernourished in the first few years of their lives that "head circumferences...averages an inch less that the others, indicating smaller brain." And over the years all these were found to have verbal, mathematical and perceptual capabilities far below those of other children. Implicit in these findings is that man is advantaged by a greater brain size.
That it is in the best interests of both sexes for man to take the lead is also supported by psychological evidence. One of New York city's leading psychiatrists and psychoanalysts, Dr. Marie N. Robinson, in one of her books, which deals with certain frustrations of married women, skillfully demonstrates by case histories that many of these particular frustrations can be ended if women will but recognized the fact that the way their bodies are made gives evidence that it is intended for man to be the head. As she expresses it, women must learn the art of "eternal acquiescence" and "deep altruism" in dealing with their husbands if they want to find happiness.
The children also stand to benefit when the Scriptural principles governing the sexes are followed. To woman falls the lot, not only of conceiving and bearing children, but also, to a great extent, of nurturing them in their earliest infancy and on to maturity. It stands to reason that for a mother to do justice to her task she must have an abundance of love and devotion, she must have much patience, great gentleness and mildness and be extremely sensitive to the needs of her offspring from infancy onward, if they are to thrive.
It follows that her entire personality must be of such a sensitive and gentle nature as to do justice to the delicate needs of the tiny developing minds and bodies. However, an abundance of such qualities does not go hand in hand with those needed for leadership and meeting stern challenges. More than that, by the Scriptures' limiting the woman's role in the congregation it makes it more likely that she will have the needed time and energy to look after the needs of her family properly. So, while she may have other interest, she should never forget that as a wife her career is caring for the physical, mental and emotional well-being of her family.
The Scriptural position might be said also to take into consideration woman's biological nature. As every woman in the prime of life is well aware, she has certain difficult days each month during which she cannot give of her best and during which she very much appreciates her husband's showing her consideration. But if she had responsibilities of oversight and was required to hold forth regularly on the public platform regardless, either her performance or her health would suffer. Recognizing the factor, God's Word counsels husbands to dwell with their wives "according to knowledge, assigning them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one." -- 1 Pet. 3:7.
Of course, the foregoing does not mean that mothers are not to teach their own children. The Bible speaks of "the law of your mother" and tells of the good results of mothers' teaching their offspring the Word of God, as in the case of the Christian minister Timothy. (Prov. 6:20; 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14, 15) Nor does it mean that women may not be schoolteachers, instructing youths and adults in secular subjects. But women are not to exercise authority over Christian men in the Christian congregation nor are they to assume authority over their own husbands in their homes.
That women are not precluded from preaching to those outside the Christian congregation can be seen from the prophecy quoted by the apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost: "I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves an upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy." (Acts 2:17, 18) In keeping with this prophecy, today there are literally hundreds of thousands of women ministers who "prophesy" by preaching the good news of God's kingdom and who teach Bible truths to both men and women in their homes and who receive many blessings from doing so.
The headship that the Scriptures assign to the man indicates that man and woman have different roles to play in life. The fact that Christian husbands are commanded to love their wives as Jesus Christ loved the congregation, he even dying for it, should certainly preclude any criticism of the role that God's Word assigns to the man. His is a difficult assignment, but for it he has also been equipped. Truly the Scriptural position is seen to be sound, practical and wise. Happy are all those governed by it! -- Eph. 5:25-33.
[Emphasis Added]


15. What prospect was placed before Adam and
Eve?


15 At mankind’s beginning, God gave
Adam and his wife, Eve, the earth and all its
wonders to investigate and enjoy. (Gen. 1:
28) Jehovah provided abundant food and a
paradise home for them. They had the opportunity
to live forever and become the beloved
parents of billions of perfect descendants.
Yet, things did not work out that way.


COMMENTS


Ever wonder how the WTS explains Jesus being perfect having an imperfect mother?


Does the life come from the man or the woman?


What was the main reason women were created?


***it-2 p. 56 Jesus Christ***Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. From the results revealed in the Bible , it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary’s ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start.


*** w69 4/1 p. 223 Questions From Readers***When a woman conceives, an ovum being fertilized by a male sperm, life is passed on.

*** w00 9/1 p. 22 par. 19 ***What precious heritage does Jehovah offer to those who are not of the little flock? No, it is not an inheritance in the heavens. It is the heritage that Adam could have passed on to his offspring—the prospect of eternal life in perfection in a paradise that will gradually encompass the globe.

*** w95 1/15 p. 4***The first ‘machine operator,’ Adam, did not treasure the life he had been given. Hence, he passed on to his offspring an imperfect life, similar to a malfunctioning machine.


*** w61 12/15 p. 768 Questions From Readers***This bearing of children is the sole privilege of the female. In fact, this is one main reason for creating the female of the human species.




Acknowledging the Role of Holy Spirit


16. We have what hope despite the rebellion of the
first humans?


16 Instead of gratefully obeying their Creator,
Adam and Eve selfishly rebelled. All imperfect
humans have descended from them
and have suffered as a result. But the Bible
explains how God will undo all the damage
caused by the sinful course of our first parents.
The Scriptures also show that Jehovah
will fulfill his original purpose. Earth
will become a paradise filled with happy,
healthy people blessed with everlasting life.
(Gen. 3:15) To maintain faith in that heartwarming
prospect, we need the help of
God’s holy spirit.


COMMENTS


Why would a perfect, intelligent woman talk to a snake? Were there any other talking animals?


Is there anything in the Bible that says that Adam loved Eve more than God? That he was pu**ywhi**ed which is amazing considering Eve wasn’t pregnant yet?


*** it-2 p. 963-964 Sin, I***Adam’s eating, therefore, must have been due to desire for his wife, and he ‘listened to her voice’ rather than to that of his God. (Ge 3:6, 17)

*** w00 11/15 p.  26***So Adam deliberately chose to defy Jehovah. His fear of being separated from his wife was evidently greater than his faith in God’s ability to remedy the situation.

CARROT: paradise filled with happy, healthy people with everlasting life




17. What kind of thinking must we avoid?


17 We should pray to Jehovah for holy
spirit. (Luke 11:13) Doing so will help us to
reinforce our conviction that creation is the
work of God’s hand. Today, there is a rising
tide of atheistic and evolutionist propaganda
dependent on flawed and baseless reasoning.
We should not let this flood of
faulty thinking confuse or intimidate us. All
Christians must prepare themselves to resist
such an onslaught and the peer pressure associated
with it.—Read Colossians 2:8.


COMMENTS


Can any jw prove they have received holy spirit? In what way?


At their baptism? Do they get improved understanding of the Bible? (the other sheep that is)


*** it-1 p. 114 Anointed, Anointing ***The apostle John indicated that the anointing by holy spirit that Christians receive teaches them. (1Jo 2:27) It commissions and qualifies them for the Christian ministry of the new covenant.—2Co 3:5, 6.


The following is every thought apart from the WTS unless the WTS quotes from a non-jw scientific source (and fails to identify it clearly)


Tide of atheistic and evolutionist propaganda
Flawed and baseless reasoning
Faulty thinking


Are jws able to explain their beliefs from the Bible or only from FDS created material—peer pressure?




18. When considering the origin of the universe
and mankind, why would it be shortsighted to rule
out an intelligent Creator?


18 Faith in the Bible and in God himself is
sure to be strengthened by an honest examination
of the evidence in favor of creation.
In contemplating the origin of the universe
and mankind, many would like to rule out
the influence of any force outside the physical
realm. If we were to discuss matters from
that standpoint, though, we would not be
weighing all the evidence impartially. Moreover,
we would be ignoring the obvious
existence of orderly, purposeful creations
“without number.” (Job 9:10; Ps. 104:25) As
Christians, we are certain that the active
force involved in creation was holy spirit
under the intelligent direction of Jehovah.


COMMENTS


Whose evidence, from the scientific department of the WTS?
The WTS accepts the non-jw DNA teaching…why, have they studied it scientifically? How does the WTS rule in evidence inside the physical realm?


*** w076/15p.23pars.11-12WeAre“WonderfullyMade” ***Today, it is known that characteristics you inherited from your parents and forebears—such as your height, facial features, eye and hair color, and thousands of other traits—were determined by your genes. Each of your cells contains tens of thousands of genes, and each gene is part of a long chain made of DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid). Building instructions for your body are “written” in the chemical structure of your personal DNA. Every time your cells divide—to make new cells or to replace old cells—your DNA passes those instructions on, thereby keeping you alive and maintaining your basic appearance. What an outstanding example of the power and wisdom of our heavenly Maker!



What proof would “Christians” (only jws) give of their certainty that holy spirit created under God’s influence? This quote? An astronomer explaining how to recreate life?


*** ce (Creation)chap. 2 p. 17 par.***Regarding the question of how life originated, astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “To their chagrin [scientists] have no clear-cut answer, because chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature’s experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how that happened.” He added: “Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation.” 8






Holy Spirit and Our Faith in God


19. What provides personal proof of the existence
of God and the operation of his spirit?


19 We do not need to know everything
about creation in order to have faith in God
as well as love and profound reverence for
him. Like friendship with a human, faith in
Jehovah is based on more than cold facts.
Just as a relationship between friends grows
as they get to know each other better, our
faith in God increases as we learn more
about him. Indeed, his very existence is
impressed upon us when he answers our
prayers and we note the good effects of applying
his principles in our life. We draw
ever closer to Jehovah as we see mounting
evidence that he is guiding our
steps, protecting us, blessing our
efforts in his service, and supplying
the things we need. All of this
provides powerful confirmation of
God’s existence and of the operation
of his holy spirit.


COMMENTS


“We do not need to know about everything about creation” but we do need to know something that is not based on selected human reasoning, selected by the WTS to support their non-scientific ideas.


Its much like the WTS/FDS/GB saying that we should believe everything they say even if we don’t understand it…not like the Bereans who carefully checked everything (Acts 17:10,11).


http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/192904/1/New-CO-talk-Be-loyal-to-Org-even-if-you-get-weird-instructions-or-can-prove-them-wrong-doctrinally


20. (a) Why did God create the universe and man?
(b)What will result if we continue to follow the lead
of God’s holy spirit?


20 The Bible is an outstanding example
of Jehovah’s use of his active
force because its writers “spoke from
God as they were borne along by
holy spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21) Careful
study of the Scriptures can build our
faith in God as the one who created
all things. (Rev. 4:11) Jehovah became
the Creator as an expression of
his endearing quality of love. (1 John 4:8)
Let us, therefore, do our utmost to help others
to learn about our loving heavenly Father
and Friend. In our own case, if we continue
to be led by God’s spirit, we will be
privileged to learn about him forever. (Gal.
5:16, 25) May each of us keep on learning
about Jehovah and his great works and reflect
in our lives the boundless love he
showed when he used his holy spirit to
create the heavens, the earth, and mankind.


COMMENTS


So where has the WTS proven that the Bible is a book from God not men?


How can God have an endearing quality of love if as the WTS teaches he plans to eternally destroy all non-jws (7 billion), men, women, children, even babes in the womb “soon” at Armaggedon, dying because of being born in this time period, children dying for the sins of their parents….


Where is the boundless love…………


(BTW, when do jws learn about Jesus?)


Are you prepared to defend your faith?


Can You Explain?


What does the existence of the heavens
and the earth teach us about
God’s use of holy spirit?


Being made in God’s image gives us
what opportunities?


Why do we need to examine the evidence
for creation?


In what ways can our  relationship
with Jehovah grow?

CONCLUDING COMMENTS

Many declarative sentences without any foundation or substance.
How often the WTS quotes from non-jw scientific sources, filtering out what they want, leaving out the context. They fail to cite the name and background of the individual, the source and date of the publication.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/197635/1/Great-refutation-of-Watchtowers-Origin-of-Life-and-Was-Life-Created-brochures

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/science/

NEXT WEEK, Gaining God’s Approval Leads to Everlasting Life. Remember that the “memorial” is on Sunday so the WT Study will most likely be on Saturday, April 16.

Love, Blondie
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 5 years ago

Good Morning Blondie!!..



6 We are surrounded by evidence that Godused his holy spirit in a very orderly way. Toillustrate: Suppose you had a box containing
balls of different colors. You shake thebox, thoroughly mixing the balls. Then youthrow them out onto the ground all at once.
Would you expect the balls to land groupedaccording to color—the blue balls together,the yellow likewise, and so on? Of course
not! Uncontrolled actions always tend to resultin less order, not more. That fact is acceptedas a fundamental law of nature.*



 The WBT$ Fabricates a Bullshit story line..Then proceeds to Destroy It..LOL!!..

 Evolution is based on "Survival of the Fittest"..
 Not a Box Of randomly Coloured Watchtower balls ,Presented by the WBT$ as Fact..
 If the WBT$ could make a JW think any Less..
 Your average JW would have No Idea of their Own Existence..



 Kingdom Hall..
 of
 Jehovah`s Vegetables..


 
.................................   ...OUTLAW
 
ldrnomo
ldrnomo 5 years ago

Blah-blah-blah!
what mindless studies of the WT these are. They accomplish nothing they teach nothing they are nothing but propaganda. They make fact-less statements like this one below.
Today, there is a rising tide of atheistic and evolutionist propaganda dependent on flawed and baseless reasoning.

WT Show us these flawed and baseless reasonings please
Thanks Blondie for keeping us entertained on Sunday mornings
 
bobld
bobld 5 years ago

Thanks,Blondie.I appreciate how you use their own publication to show how stupid the Faithful slave is.They always like to refer to past R.C. publications to show how stupid the R.C. is.Their own meds.
B
 
garyneal
garyneal 5 years ago


 
jgnat
jgnat 5 years ago

Besides the "definitive" explanations of science, what struck me in this article is the analogy given on paragraph 6, of a box full of identically sized and weighted but differently colored marbles. Shake the box and the marbles remain chaotic.
What the analogy leaves out is when the marbles are weighted or sized differently. This is what we see in nature. Shake that box of differently shaped marbles, and they will sort themselves in to a lattice (crystal) pattern, without any divine intervention. I'm reading a book on Quantum Electro-Dynamics and the implications of studying our smallest building blocks, delights.
http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/12/3/033041/fulltext
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 5 years ago

The big fallacy is that, during the first two paragraphs, they cite improving technology and better understanding of our universe. Yet, after that, they cite the Bible. I don't think the Bible was invented later than 1905--they had the same Bible back then as they do now (albeit with translational differences, to account for language changes). If creation was valid, then science would have been able to back it up. However, science is disproving creation--and pointing more toward evolution.
And yes, it is possible to have order in a random universe. You start with a few simple laws. Everything obeys those laws. Now, you get a big bang. According to those laws, electrons will orbit their nuclei, and larger objects will orbit other large objects. You have 4 forces--that number could actually be even smaller. (Gravity and the "weak" force could even be related; the gravity, electrical, weak, and strong forces could all be related.) These forces determine how the universe is going to be structured. They determine the shape of the galaxies, solar systems, stars, planets, moons, and everything else. No God is needed to individually place each and every object--if he only makes a few simple rules, a universe can evolve by simply obeying those rules. No further intervention (or credit), except to fxxx up an individual's life for entertainment purposes, is needed.
 
Eiben Scrood
Eiben Scrood 5 years ago

You know, I'm very anti-Watchtower especially since the koolaid generation change last year but I have to say this is on the whole a good article. I don't like paragraph 19 so much because I don't think prayers can be proven to be answered but I agree with much of the logic of the rest of it. Of course, I don't believe in macro-evolution so that's a big part of the reason I think this is a good article.
 
Cadellin
Cadellin 5 years ago

I agree with much of the logic of the rest of it
Like, where they say "living things provide countless examples of complexity, symmetry and beauty that bespeak design of the highest level" (paragraph 11)? Those "living things" would then include the avaricious
, the
, and the spotted hyena with its predeliction for siblicide. A close examination of these "living things" bespeaks nature "red in tooth and claw" as Tennyson said and is fairly difficult to reconcile with the rosy, Disneyesque photographs at the bottom of the page. There we see the silly walruses, lovely peaches, oh-so-pretty child and butterfly (awwww!!) and even a smiling bear cub. How cute and adorable! Yes, the WT is very careful to use sentimental examples that align with the image of a benevolent creator, staying strictly away from those that make us flinch. And yet are those not part of the "countless examples" of design?
Or how about their logic when they assert "[DNA] is very stable and has served to maintain the distinction b/w basic kinds of creatures down through the ages. According to ...God's purpose, the earth's various organisms therefore continue to perform their functions in the complex web of life." (paragraph 12). Um, evidence, please??? First of all, DNA ISN"T "very stable," not by a long shot. The WT assiduously avoids even mentioning the dreaded "M" word (mutations) and not a whiff of the fact that a significant chunk of our own human genome is comprised of "pseudogenes," formerly functioning genetic machinery that has become so corrupted with mutations that they no longer are capable of expression. They're still there, riding along in the genome, but pretty much useless. A great example of that are the olfactory genes, about 40% of which are nonfunctioning due to mutations.
And that little sentence about various organisms "continu[ing] to perform their functions in the complex web of life?" Yeah, sure, up until they go EXTINCT!! How do the five great planetary extinctions fit into that nice little scenario? Or how about the irregularities in the earth's orbit that result in regular ice ages?
Oh, I could go on but I won't.
 
Yan Bibiyan
Yan Bibiyan 5 years ago

Seems to me they dance around the same old beaten to death argument - if it is complex and orderly, it must have been created.
....but Jehovah, being the most complex and orderly of them all, fails miserably the test of creation based on complexity and order.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

When I dated a JW, I naively tried to show her the error of her ways. The last thing I wanted was for her to believe in nothing, because of the "where else can you go mentality". That is the worst thing about this cult. It worships the true God, but so distorts the gospel for the WT benefit. Then, if they lose faith in that, it is a slippery slope to not believing in anything.
That is what I am seeing on this thread in particular. Vastly incorrect statements. Science does not point to evolution. The ONLy mutations ever known were not of the nature of building a new part, but have all been destructive mutations. There is not one example of a mutation that improved something. Study the law of irreducible complexity. For an organism to have no eyes, and therefore see no light, the organism doesn't "want" light, it doesn't know what light is. What was the "factor" or cause that thought "I think it is time to form an eye for myself".
The Big Bang: Atheists hate this theory, because it wipes out their theory that everything was just always here and that our time had no beginning. Immediately before the big bang, there was absolutely nothing. That is supernatural, and of intelligence.
The likelihood that we are here by chance, and came from primordial slime are incalulable. If the gravititational constant were off by something like one-tenth of one percent, the universe would collapse. This is akin to sticking your hand into a coontainer holding 10 to the 40th power black balls, and pulling out the only white one among the bunch. You would begin to think the game had been rigged.
Get and Read the book "Who Made God" by Ravi Zacharias and Norman Geisler.
 
sd-7
sd-7 5 years ago

Interesting. The thing is, first of all, the WTS needs to create a kids' book series entitled "Where's Jesus?", designed like the "Where's Waldo?" books. Because there's no Jesus in here, though supposedly he made everything in heaven and on earth. Holy spirit is mentioned, Jehovah is mentioned, but no Jesus.
The thing is, coming around 15 billion years later and trying to extrapolate the process of the birth of an entire universe which we can't even SEE all of from our vantage point is a process that, if humanly possible, would take many millennia to fully unravel. This fact alone does not demand that one attributes everything to a Creator. That's just the easy way to stop thinking about it, to say, well, I can't figure it out, God made it, we're done here. If all men reasoned that way, we would've continued believing the Earth was flat. Exploration of science need not prove or disprove a Creator, as that is not and should not be its purpose. Religion exerts itself to prove everything else wrong, and it usually does so in the end because money and power are the end result for its leaders. Science seeks to take a mystery and solve it, pick a point in the sky or on the earth and explore it, find answers, test the answers, find better answers. That kind of creative thinking requires one to dispense with as many assumptions as possible. Religion requires you to assume that a book written 2,000+ years ago is indeed a factual record of events. Science, if pursued properly, will render a more objective set of conclusions every time.
Even if there is a Creator, that still doesn't prove that the Creator wrote the Bible or indeed any holy book. So believing this article requires you to mke two major assumptions without a lot of tangible evidence to do so.
Also, using the term 'propaganda'? Seriously? Because a belief is different, the Society by default labels it propaganda. The Society is the one known for presenting dubious reasoning and failing to even provide bibliographies for its outside quotations in many cases, thus expecting the reader to simply read and believe rather than read and fact-check and then decide whether or not the logic is sound. What the Society does in this one sentence is use loaded language, engage in name-calling, and make a broad generalization--none of which proves anything. It appeals to negative emotion rather than sound reasoning. Sounds like propaganda to me.
None of this is to bash a belief in creation; I believe that either something or someone created everything. Even if it was a force--a collision with another universe, as some scientists believe--it still resulted in all this stuff being designed. I do take issue with their saying God used 'no additional material'--he had to use some kind of energy to make matter. The Society makes the argument time and again in defense of creation that something cannot come from nothing, yet they assert that indeed, God made something from nothing. It would've been more accurate to just say that he used his own energy, in the form of holy spirit, to create everything. That's at least somewhat more scientific.
It's an article that just uses bad logic and relies on credulity to make its point. Standard for the Watchtower, par for the course.
--sd-7
 
undercover
undercover 5 years ago

Notice that paragraph thirteen comments about the creation process up to man's creation taking aeons.
Websters definition of "aeon":
1. an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time
2a. (usually eon): a very large division of geologic time usually longer than an era
2b. a unit of geologic time equal to one billion years.

The nail in the coffin for the 7,000 year creative days.
When the notion of a planet and it's contents less than 50,000 years old became too ridiculous to continue to hold on to and to preach as "truth", they WTS quietly and conveniently drops that teaching and slips in a more acceptable timeline. At least acceptable enough to a group of people who won't question beyond the obvious.
How long before they give up the ghost on Adam being created 6,000 years ago? The scientific data on the history of man makes that belief equally ridiculous but I have yet to see them drop that teaching. How long before it becomes an obvious issue with even the most zombiefied dub that they'll have to revise their timeline yet again?
 
hamsterbait
hamsterbait 5 years ago

Witness dater -
Mutations that produced dark skin in sunny regions actually IMPROVED the survival of humans in equatorial reigions.
Mutations that reduced the size of herons wings on windy pacific islands IMPROVED the survival of these now flightless birds in bad weather conditions.
Mutations in harmful bacteria occur all the time - they are beneficial to the bacterium when it ensures resistance to antibiotics, or enables them to exploit a hitherto indigestible food source.
The mutation that allows certain branches of humanity to digest milk is beneficial.
The mutations conferring immunity to TB, plague and other diseases are irrefutably beneficial.
Throw your copy of "Did Life Get here by Evolution or Creation" in the bin it is full of errors deliberate misquotes and LIES.
Mutations that remove the ability to speak in ignorant people IMPROVES the overall feelgood factor of people who have acquired (by mutation) the inability to swallow intellectual shit churned out by the former.
By the way by 1905 Astronomers had telescopes that confirmed the existence of galaxies. This is a deliberate LIE by the FDS.
And arguing that the "PROBABILITY" of our being here is incalculable proves NOTHING. AS far as anybody here is aware intelligent life - even life itself - perhaps even the universe as we know it is unique.
IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CALCULATE the PROBABILITY OF A UNIQUE EVENT.
The bag full of balls is a false analogy. Since we are only aware of ONE universe, or ONE example of say intelligent life, or of life at all, we are in effect dipping our hands into a bag with only the one ball that we can possibly find inside. Since this ball is the only one that irrefutably exists (whatever fairy stories stone age know nothings made up) you need to prove that something that evidently does NOT exist (ie NOTHING) is just as likely to exist as what we know does exist.
Since nothing evidently does NOT exist, the universe as we know it is more likely, though we cannot, as said above prove the mathematical probability of this unique event that did nevertheless happen.
Since my father ejaculated millions of sperm into my mother, the probability of me existing is billions to one. That is soo unlikely God must have guided those little swimmers to where he wanted them to go.
I have only contempt for those that gave up swimming before they had even reached the oesophagus.
HB
 
hamsterbait
hamsterbait 5 years ago

And can SOMEBODY please tell me how to reconcile the Disneyland God of the New System with the sociopathic genocidal killer we see in the Bible.
True he seems to be "Love" in the NT, but didnt he inspire his own prophet (Isaiah??) to say a leopard cannot change its spots?
Maybe we are looking at the first recorded case of paranoid schizophrenia?
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

Hamster,
Most notably, your response was merely intended to insult, rather than provide much to think about. This is usually the mark of someone who can't think of much worthwhile to say. CS Lewis once said " Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable."
First, everything has a cause. If you are a scientist, you must admit this. Second, if everything has a cause, then, if the rule is followed strictly, the series of causes would go into the past for infinity. This cannot be, else we would never arrived at the present. Since this cannot be, this means there must have been an ultimate uncaused cause. This uncaused cause must be intelligent, else it is the result of something else and is not the first uncaused cause.
On your question about God killing people in the Bible, can you give me an example of when God killed people without any strong warning directly from him? Because I know that if God appeared to me in a dream or vision and warned me, I would probably obey. It is probably about as fair as you can get.
The container of black balls - you've got it wrong also. It is not just the probability at stake here, but the specified probability of a life-permitting universe existing. This may also PROVE nothing, but you have to use your logic along with knowing you must be nuts if you thought this occured by chance. You actually have to have more faith to believe it happened by chance (and you still haven't explain the cause) than to believe in God. The cosmological constant, crucial to the development of the universe, must be inexplicably fine-tuned to an accuracy of one part in 10^53 in order for a life-permitting universe to exist. If you can't trust your own logic, then any argument that you make is meaningless. How do you know you even exist?
In the beginning of an "evolution" scenario, the odds that ten to twenty amino acids coming together by chance (remember, no natural selection or chemical evolution at this stage) to form an enzyme has been estimated to be on the order of 10^20. There are two thousand different enzymes made out of amino acids, all of which would have to be formed purely by chance, and the odds of that happening are around 10^40000, ods so outrageously small that they could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.
Darwin himself said that if the transitional forms of organisms were not ever found, then his theory could not hold. Thus far, those transitional forms have not been found, only distinctly different fossils of organisms which died off. Barrow and Tipler list ten steps in the course of human evolution - the development of aerobic respiration, the development of an inner skeleton, the development of the eye, for example - each of which is so improbable that before it would occur, the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence and incinerated the earth!

Questions: Why aren't there any people walking around with a third arm sticking out of the top of their head? Isn't evolution random? Also, shouldn't we be seeing organisms that have died off millions of years ago coming back around? Where are the dinosaurs, why haven't they "re-evolved"?

Use your common sense Hamsterbrain: If the guy across from you in the poker game gets 4 Aces 12 times in a row, are you going to play another hand because he says "Well, it had to happen somewhere in our finite universe, might as well be here!"

 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

"Since nothing evidently does NOT exist, the universe as we know it is more likely, though we cannot, as said above prove the mathematical probability of this unique event that did nevertheless happen."
Hamster,
Just because we are conscious and what is here is obviously here, that means that we cannot observe the fact that if certain measured or calculated physical forces were off by a trillionth of a percent, then the universe would have collapsed long ago? What you are saying to me is that ANY universe is equally as improbable as this. But when you put the cosmological constants into the picture, that isn't true. Any other universe would not exist, it would die. In any case, we'd never know. Just because we are here does not mean we can't make these observations, and then deduce that it is highly improbable that the universe was not created. Or, in other words, if it were virtually any other way, there would not be anything.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

Hamster,
The vast majority of visible mutations are admitted by the evolutionists themselves to be bad. Furthermore, it has not been shown experimentally that mutation and natural selection can produce new structures or organs. Most mutations are deleterious or change (lots of times for the worse)something that is already there, they do not create livers, hearts, arms and legs. Limited changes have been observed in all species, but that does not prove that these species could evolve in millions of years into entirely different kinds of creatures. Scientists merely assume that this happened in the past when no scientists were present to observe the process.

The human skin cell itself is so complex, it would all have to have evolved all at once (by sheer chance with no intent by anything), or that cell would have died or would not have done its job. Same for the human eye. This is the principle of irreducible complexity. But your argument is that from all of the chance, accidental mutations of the past, the result we have is absolute beauty and order in our organism and universe.
 
Cadellin
Cadellin 5 years ago

Witnessedater:
Questions: Why aren't there any people walking around with a third arm sticking out of the top of their head? Isn't evolution random?
Questions like these are a clear indicator that your understanding of the current state of evolutionary biology might not be as complete as you would like. While certain aspects of organic life are random, evolution itself is not. Natural selection most definitely is not random but rather predictable and thus falsifiable. Mutations are neither "good" nor "bad," in fact the vast majority are neutral. They only take on beneficial or deleterious characteristics in context with the organism's environment. A mutation (or, often, cumulative series of mutations) only imparts benefit if it helps the organism in its pariticular setting. When that happens, those organisms have an advantage and can come to dominate a population. THis is essentially how antiobiotic resistance in bacteria work.
Ah, yes, you might say, but it's still a bacteria. Well, of course. To find out if an accumulation of changes can (over time) trigger speciation, we have to look to the fossil record. And an honest appraisal of that might surprise you. Kathleen Hunt provides a pretty good overview here . Or at least read Prothero's Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters.
One of the biggest challenges for creationists right now, IMHO, isn't the fossil record (though it's pretty solid) but the genetic record. Gene sequencing of ancient DNA means that genomes of humans, chimpanzees, Neanderthals and the latest find, Denisovians can be laid side by side. It becomes very easy to see that humans are pretty homogenous and that Neaderthals and Denisovians  fall outside the range of modern human genetic diversity.
Finding that the human evolutionary tree is more of a bush? Cool. Trying to fit it all into the last 6,000 years? Impossible.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

Cadelin,
I certainly don't claim to know everything about evolutionary theory. But, the argument at hand, that evolution (the combination of mutation and natural selection) brought forth from either amino acids or say, one organism, all of the life on earth including us, can be observed in very general terms to where one does not have to know all of the science of it. It is observed (which is the essence of science - observation) that mutations do not add - they change what is already there not to a new species but change attributes, or take away, or actually cause sickness. In essence, the do not create. This is my main point. The question about the arm out of the head was a joke, but all humor has some truth to it. If this is all random, and not part of a plan of creation, then why do we not see much more mutations that miraculously produce humans with a zoom lens in their eyeball for instance? Or six fingers on each hand? Anything significantly different?
Natural selection obviously eliminates. Only the strong survive is the principle, and the result is less species.
And not only could the theory not play out in 6000 years, it couldn't have occured in billions.
As for fossils, the reason they haven't found the transitional fossils is because they are not there to find.
 

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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-10-2011 WT Study (CREATION)
by blondie 5 years ago 41 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

If you look at Hamsters examples of mutations that have occured for instance, you will see one constant argument being made - that the mutations helped the SURVIVAL of the species. He made not one argument that kindeys, livers, skin, brains were created by mutation. His argument goes nowhere. Obviously, there are mutations. Obviously, natural selection is a logical and real occurence. Either alone or put together, they create nothing.
Scientifically speaking, more than anything the law of irreducible complexity proves creation to me. For the cell to work, it can't be built piece by piece over millions of years. And the exact mutations that needed to occur to maintain survival, if it were possible for the cell to survive are again incalculable. The cell must work, all at one time. And if a cell appears alltogether, all at one time, that is creation, the very definition.
 
hamsterbait
hamsterbait 5 years ago

Witnessdater -
In your post prior to mine you said that "all known mutations are destructive". I fail to see the insult in pointing out examples that directly contradict this claim. or that there "is not one mutation that improved something" is just a downright LIE.
I fail to see after you throw out comments that people who favor atheism, or believe - your abusive term : "anything" why you would be insulted because these same people whose widely divergent beliefs do not agree with yours would find silence most welcome.
The creation / we are here & dont know why argument has been dealt with so many times on this board that I am not going to participate in yet another round of fruitless arguing. All your points have been efficiently dismissed too often here.
HB
 
hamsterbait
hamsterbait 5 years ago

BY the way BLONDIE - we love you...
Thanx for your efforts it saves so much wasted energy, though I wonder how you get through this after all these years without needing meds!!
I cannot stand the thought of mind pollution. What's your filter system, Honey?
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 5 years ago

Scientifically speaking, more than anything the law of irreducible complexity proves creation to me.
What scientific "law" is that? There is no such "law." It was made up by Michael Behe and has been disproven many times. Please take 10 minutes and watch this video. It does a fine job explaining how the human eye could have developed.



 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago



Hamster,
You wrote: "Mutations that remove the ability to speak in ignorant people IMPROVES the overall feelgood factor of people who have acquired (by mutation) the inability to swallow intellectual shit churned out by the former."
Since this is not an actual mutation, I took it as being directed at anyone who speaks out their belief in creation (like me). Sorry if I took it the wrong way.
My intent was obviously to say that mutation has never been demonstrated to create a feature or organism, only to alter an existing one. If you know of one, let me know. I will take the absence of that as proof that the fact remains that no mutation has ever been shown to create anything. If you have shot that down before, please do again, it shouldn't be that hard for you. As far as I know, this is not an atheist or a creationist board. It is a board regarding the WTBTS. You spoke out on the subject of non-creationism first, then I spoke.
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 5 years ago

If you know of one, let me know.
Sure, how about a simple one. This is nice, too, because it was actually observed in the lab. (This entire thing was a lab experiment, after all.)
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
Your statement that mutations never add features/capabilities is flat out wrong.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

Both very powerful, the video and the news story. Several comments though.
One, the news story was from 2008. Why has this not been on the front page of the NY Times, who screams from the rooftops any advance made in the advance of evolutionary theory? It seems this would have been a well known story by now. I suspect that the reason it never took off is that it is dealing with bacteria, just as one of hamsters arguments did. A cell does not live on its own. Bacterium do. It is an organism on its own. And no bacteria has been ever demonstrated to turn into a cell. The bacteria didn't turn into anything new, as the bird Hamster cited also did not turn into anything new. It gained an ability to process some chemical. Is there even a theory out there that postulates HOW a human cell might have evolved, all the way from amino acids, and how it could have been done in the time alloted? The assertions made by the speaker should most definitely be fact-checked. The reality is that Stephen Hawking is to the point of declaring that the laws of gravity and physics THEMSELVES created the universe (with pre-existing matter I suppose - whoops, no, that wouldn't be creating). That is where anti-creationism and/or atheism is now. That is the newest theory, put forth only weeks ago from the smartest man in the world.
For the video, the first thing I noticed is that it took a very long time to put forth what it was TRYING to say. First, why would "light-sensitive cells" ever exist in the first place? Did they evolve into more focused eyes later? The video showed several different animals which had varying degrees of light sensitivity or focus. Have the fossils confirmed from one of these species to the other that they evolved from one another? I have seen nothing in that regard for confirmation. The very occurence of "light-sensitive cells" occuring in just the right cells in the right place, what are the chances?? With no intent by anyone, no knowledge of the cells themselves of what they wanted to be? Why didn't the light sensitive cells show up in my skin or heart instead? Again, take away any portion of a cell, and it will not live, and certainly not without an organism that supports it, with all of the thousands of chemical reactions which take place in all of our cells everyday. Way, way out on a limb are the evolutionists. Ask Stephen Hawking where he is. It simply seems that were this any kind of a viable theory, major documentaries and coherent movies would have been made about it. Plenty of money exists among those believing no God to get the right scientists together, and prove it once and for all. We are talking about physical sciences, with archeological proof to be displayed. It isn't there. It is just a guess, but an improbable reality. There is a cause for everything. There must be an ultimate uncaused cause. I call that uncaused cause "God".
The general feeling is that for all of this to happen by chance, and in the correct sequence for us to all still be here, is a stretch beyond all imagination. Not sure I am spelling it correctly, but "Ockham's Razor" says that the correct explanation for anything is the simplest one. To absolutely deny the possibility that God created the universe, and us, and hold to a most improbable theory, is all the more reason to exit this place as soon as possible. Otherwise, why stay? To think the thoughts that we are able to think, and to be able to even concieve of God, proves that we are not mere automata. To have free will and choice, among the animals, and concieve of time, space, science, have new ideas proves this. And it cannot be disproven.
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 5 years ago

One, the news story was from 2008. Why has this not been on the front page of the NY Times ...
It was pretty big news back in the day. I saw it posted on numerous scientific news sources and even mainstream media. It was quite fascinating but it's not like this was the first or only evidence we have for evolution.
A cell does not live on its own. Bacterium do. It is an organism on its own. And no bacteria has been ever demonstrated to turn into a cell.
Huh? Bacteria are single-celled organisms.
The bacteria didn't turn into anything new ...
If you expect a radical change to happen in front of your eyes, you have a poor understanding of evolution. The theory of evolution does not predict such observations. Changes take hundreds of thousands/millions of years to happen. We will never see drastic, radical changes happen in front of our eyes, although that would be pretty neat. Such a request is like asking to see the complete life cycle of a star happen before your eyes, from the coalescing of hydrogen gas to its possible demise into a black hole. Ain't gonna happen, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the real world given enough time.
Is there even a theory out there that postulates HOW a human cell might have evolved, all the way from amino acids, and how it could have been done in the time alloted?
Yes. Do some reading. "Time alloted" [sic] ? The Earth has been here over 4 billion years. That's a LONG time. Plus it is quite possible the precursors to life arrived at this planet from somewhere else.
The reality is that Stephen Hawking is to the point of declaring that the laws of gravity and physics THEMSELVES created the universe (with pre-existing matter I suppose - whoops, no, that wouldn't be creating). That is where anti-creationism and/or atheism is now. That is the newest theory, put forth only weeks ago from the smartest man in the world.
Yes, all interesting and very hypothetical stuff but it has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the universe. It's a theory about how life changes over time.
First, why would "light-sensitive cells" ever exist in the first place?
Random mutation. Remember there is no purpose or goal behind evolution. The raw working material is random mutation (among other things). Once something develops or changes that aids in an organisms survival in its environment, that change tends to "stick."
Did they evolve into more focused eyes later? The video showed several different animals which had varying degrees of light sensitivity or focus. Have the fossils confirmed from one of these species to the other that they evolved from one another?
These example species didn't have to evolve one from another. It was an example of eyes that function at various levels of complexity.
The very occurence of "light-sensitive cells" occuring in just the right cells in the right place, what are the chances?? With no intent by anyone, no knowledge of the cells themselves of what they wanted to be? Why didn't the light sensitive cells show up in my skin or heart instead?
Such a mutation COULD show up in your heart cells. But since that would provide no advantage to an organism, the mutation would not present an advantage and therefore would most likely fade out of existence. Unused features tend to get removed as it is a waste of biological resources.
Again, take away any portion of a cell, and it will not live, and certainly not without an organism that supports it, with all of the thousands of chemical reactions which take place in all of our cells everyday.
Take away any part of an arch and it collapses. If you watched the video you should have learned that "irreducibly complex" is hardly ever actually so.
Ask Stephen Hawking where he is.
Stephen Hawking? First of all, he does not believe in a personal god. It wouldn't matter anyway if he did. He may be an extremely intelligent individual, but that doesn't make him right on every topic. Look up "argument from authority."
It simply seems that were this any kind of a viable theory, major documentaries and coherent movies would have been made about it.
There are numerous!
Plenty of money exists among those believing no God to get the right scientists together, and prove it once and for all. We are talking about physical sciences, with archeological proof to be displayed.
So now it's some sort of conspiracy? Wow.
It isn't there.
There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence. Start here if you honestly want to explore it:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
There is a cause for everything. There must be an ultimate uncaused cause. I call that uncaused cause "God".
I agree that there must be some uncaused source. Infinite causality is illogical. However, even the laws of cause and effect may not have applied before the big bang (heck, they break down at the quantum level), so our understanding of cause/effect may not apply before the big bang.
If you want to call it "God," so be it. But where is your evidence that he exists? That he is the Judeo-Christian God? It seems much more likely to me that some fundamental energy was here at the "beginning" rather than some omnipotent, omniscient being. One is infinitely more complex than the other. Didn't you say something about Occam's Razor?
 
AnnOMaly
AnnOMaly 5 years ago

hamsterbait:

By the way by 1905 Astronomers had telescopes that confirmed the existence of galaxies. This is a deliberate LIE by the FDS.
The claim in the paragraph was that in 1905 scientists generally believed the extent of our universe consisted of just our Milky Way galaxy. So I looked it up because I also thought 'No way!' But the writer is correct.
The other galaxies or nebulae that could be seen in telescopes were still considered to be part of our own galaxy, although there were some astronomers who were beginning to disagree due to certain calculations that didn't fit (the distances were too great for them to belong to the Milky Way). It was in the early 1920's that there was a Great Debate about it, and in 1925 or so Hubble put the matter to rest with the discoveries made using the new, more powerful, 100-inch telescope, thereby confirming that there are indeed other galaxies apart from our own and therefore, the universe is far, far bigger than previously thought.
We can't catch out the WTS writers on this one.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

If the evidence were in and proven, no one would be going to church anymore. It would have been proclaimed that there is no God.
On the original source of energy, there must have been a source for that. If you can't trust your logic on that, then you cannot trust your logic on any of this. There must have been an "idea" for there to be anything. If you are only a random collection of brain cells and logic is thrown out the window, nothing yo say can have any meaning. Yes, Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation (ask a child) to the question "Where did it all come from?" 99.9% of the time the answer will be God. That is the simplest explanation. Instead of "Okay folks, here's what happened: Against all odds, enough amino acids ended up in the same pool somewhere, had all the right mutations to eventually make a strand of DNA within a cell (this alone would have taken up a billion of the years) Then all of the creatures and plants you see around you were formed from this, branching off from each other. If you want to know how this happened, read entire tomes of writing." That is simple? Nope, God (an intelligent being) is.
Different question: Do you believe that there is good and evil?
 
jgnat
jgnat 5 years ago

If the evidence were in and proven, no one would be going to church anymore.
Witnessdater, you vastly underestimate the power of the human mind to decieve itself. There are other benefits to believing in God and attending religious services, than to serve logic. The denominations that insist on literal acceptance of the bible, say, as a "scientific" text, is a small subset of Christianity.
 
therevealer
therevealer 5 years ago

Indeed, physical creation testifies to the awesome power of God's holy spirit.
from paragraph 4. Should that not be worded "of God through his holy spirit". Doesn't the way they word it suggest the holy spirit as seperate from God? Since they think holy spirit is simply a force or power belonging to god that he "uses", that seems to me to be poorly worded at the very least.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

JG,
I think you are misunderstanding me. He is presenting all of this "evidence" that evolution is what happened, and that the laws of cause and effect breakdown at the quantum level. He doesn't understand that he is talking about physical laws as we know them. And trying to apply it before the Big Bang, when there was nothing. The general rule of cause and effect still remains. The question "Where did everything come from" is a valid question. Obviously, if God created the matter of the Big Bang, it is by definition a supernatural occurence. Something does not come from nothing, but he seems to suggest that maybe it can. If we accept this as true, then anything is true, and the question self-destructs.
His answer is telling me that it is possible that the question is meaningless. I am telling him that if evolution and non-creation by intelligent being of the universe has been proven, then belief in God would have fallen WAY off. Churches would be devastated. Therefore, all of the "evidence" he is putting forth hasn't proven anything.
 
jgnat
jgnat 5 years ago

Witnessdater, I understood you perfectly, and I stand by my statements. The case for evolution has been well-founded for some time now. The holdouts include those of "faith" who depend on a certain world-view, just as previous generations depended on a belief that the earth was the center of the universe. Christianity survived that shake-up, and it will survive this one as well.
You should know that quantum events cannot be observed directly.
 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago


 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

Drwtsn32,

Take a look at this from Behe. Facts are facts. Evolution is merley a word argument. Science cannot demonstrate it. Microevolution occurs, but never has there been a demonstration with fossilsor otherwise how we got from single cell organisms to all of the creatures today. Look in particular at his answer about slinging mud onto a wall and it accidentally creating Shakespeare. When science cannot explain it, as it cannot demonstrate evolution or intelligent design, then one has to go to philosophical thinking. This is where the evolutionists have no ideas that make sense. Nice try though.



 
witnessdater
witnessdater 5 years ago

jgnat,
I guess I would respond to your first comment then, would be to say that I do not study the Bible to serve my logic at all. My logic studies the Bible among other belief systems and sees absolute truth that was presented about the human condition by Jesus, and the prophetic schema that is evident, along with the fact that archaeological evidence of Lazarus, Thomas, etc and the questions of why the disciples would have dies for a lie all point to the Bible being true. There are obviously some metaphorical statements made within it, but the Bible does not claim to have verbal perfection, nor does it claim to be literal in all that it puts forth. And obviously, the resurrection of Jesus, if it didn't happen, the Bible falls completely apart. That is the central event of the Bible.
There is not any document, not even close, with the kind of documentary backup, including historians of the first century. Drwtsn will likely believe the writings of Homer, but probably not the Bible. If we have no meaning, origin, destiny, then life is meaningless indeed. Nothing in evolution has been proven, and none of it is falsifiable, because it doesn't at all state anything in strict terms of science. It is simply a theory. The theory of relativity is also a theory, but it is backed up totally by mathematics and natural physics. Evolution is a story. Sois intelligent design, which is also falsifiable, but hasnt been falsified. We have come much closer to falsifying evolution than the other way around.
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 5 years ago

Nothing in evolution has been proven, and none of it is falsifiable, because it doesn't at all state anything in strict terms of science. It is simply a theory. The theory of relativity is also a theory, but it is backed up totally by mathematics and natural physics. Evolution is a story. Sois intelligent design, which is also falsifiable, but hasnt been falsified. We have come much closer to falsifying evolution than the other way around.
Wow... nearly every single one of these statements is false. Please tell me you're just trolling. It's hard to imagine someone actually thinks this way.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

"WHEN Albert Einstein published his special theory of relativity in 1905, he and many other scientists believed that he universe consisted of just one galaxy - our Milky Way. How greatly they underestimated the size of the universe! It is now thought that the heavens contain over 100 billion galaxies, some consisting of billions of stars. As ever more sensitive telescopes are used on earth or put into orbit around it, the number of known galaxies keeps climbing. ..."
But no Jehovah's Witness will ever contribute to those scientific advancements, because the Watchtower Society subtly discourages obtaining a higher education and condemns those who have done so and have made the very discoveries that the Watchtower Society quotes in this article...
"...And we will undoubtedly learn much more about the earth and the heavens in the years ahead. ..."
Not if it were left up to the Watchtower Society and its adherents...
The Watchtower Society plagiarizes the information obtained by REAL scientists and prints snippets in its magazines; in effect co-opting these discoveries in much the same way as the religious adherents who claim that their 3,500-year-old 'god' must have 'created' the 4.5 billion-year-old planet - or that this same junior 'god' of only 3,500 years inspired the vast array of much, much older 'heathen' religions...
Zid
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago


"... Modern science is aware that matter can be changed into energy and energy into matter. ..."
"... Modern science is aware..." ??
How disingenuous... Modern science discovered that matter is composed of energy and that energy can be converted into matter...
"We are surrounded by evidence that God used his holy spirit in a very orderly way. ... Yet, when we raise our eyes and telescopes heavenward, what do we see? We find an immense and highly ordered system of galaxies, stars, and planets, all moving with great precision. ..."
Oh, goody... The Newtonian theory of an ordered universe... [from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton ]
"In this work [Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy], Newton described universal gravitation and the three laws of motion, which dominated the scientific view of the physical universe for the next three centuries. Newton showed that the motions of objects on Earth and of celestial bodies are governed by the same set of natural laws, by demonstrating the consistency between Kepler's laws of planetary motion and his theory of gravitation; ..."
In reality, the universe is quite chaotic - for example, astronomers have recently discovered that there are two smaller galaxies in the process of colliding with the Milky Way...
Of course, I can see how the need to believe in an "ordered" universe might comfort people who are dismayed by the uncertainties of chaotic reality...
From: http://books.google.com/books?id=55ghk_xYpToC&pg=PA818&lpg=PA818&dq=chaos+theory+versus+newtonian+order&source=bl&ots=rqnB2S4xuQ&sig=ZChhqbv3KbWw9-ixjaaJ0QZ43LY&hl=en&ei=6NunTa6tDYfAsAOV08H5DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=chaos%20theory%20versus%20newtonian%20order&f=false
"The most significant contribution of chaos theory is to show that 'chaos' and 'order' are not dichotomous or mutually exclusive categories. In fact, there is order within chaos and chaos within order. This notion defies the Newtonian ontological assumption that there is an ultimate orderliness and determinism in the universe... Chaos theory also shows that even when the relationships between a system's components are deterministic, the effects of the system may not be predictable in quantitative, precise terms. ..."
Moving right along...
The next bizarre mis-statement of scientific fact comes in paragraph 10:
"On the first creative day, Jehovah caused light to begin to appear at the earth's surface. That process would be completed when the sun and the moon later became discernible from the earth. ..."
Really??
How the heck could there be "light" in the beginning, when the sun and moon and stars were supposedly created on the FOURTH day??? And that the plants and trees and "seed-bearing" vegetation [grasses???] came into existence BEFORE the sun existed????
The Watchtower Society deliberately mis-quotes the bible in a vain attempt to appear moderately 'scientific'...
Yeah, right...  Sheeeeeesh....
Zid
 

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Topic Summary
the physical heavens, the earth, and everything.
heavens themselves were made, and by the.
creative days three through six, god created.



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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-10-2011 WT Study (CREATION)
by blondie 5 years ago 41 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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Pistoff
Pistoff 5 years ago

If you know of one, let me know. I will take the absence of that as proof that the fact remains that no mutation has ever been shown to create anything.
witnessdater is following an old pattern, attacking small pieces of scientific data and conclusions with specious arguments.
Is Michael Behe the best you have?
These are pseudo-scientific polemics against evolution. Evolution is a theory that has not ever been disproved by findings or fossils.
 
jgnat
jgnat 5 years ago

“….I do not study the Bible to serve my logic at all…absolute truth….fact….true….”
Your statements do not ring true. Your statements point to a need for the bible to be a certain kind of thing, in order to maintain your faith.
“And obviously, the resurrection of Jesus, if it didn't happen, the Bible falls completely apart. That is the central event of the Bible.”
I would modify this statement that the New Testament would fall apart without the resurrection of Jesus. Jews and Muslims happily share the Old Testament with us, and their religious belief systems have not fallen apart.
“There is not any document, not even close, with the kind of documentary backup, including historians of the first century.”
The bible is a compilation of documents. I assume you are repeating claims like this:
There are more copies of the New Testament in existence today than any other ancient manuscript….Currently we know of more than 24,000 complete and partial copies of the New Testament in existence. By comparison, there are only 643 surviving manuscripts of Homer's Iliad. http://dwkeys.tripod.com/bible.html
What I find interesting is the history of these early fragments . Not to mention the epistles and fragments which were rejected from the canon .
http://www.thebibleskeptic.com/appendixa.html
http://www.consider.org/library/text.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm
“If we have no meaning, origin, destiny, then life is meaningless indeed.”
Go ahead – live with meaning! Be moral and make good choices. Worship God. Pray. Take care what you hang your hat on.
 

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Topic Summary
the physical heavens, the earth, and everything.
heavens themselves were made, and by the.
creative days three through six, god created.



Related Topics
Coded Logic
Proceedings and Decievings
by Coded Logic 7 months ago
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Blondie's Highlights You Did Not Hear at the 8-23-2015 WT Study (PRAYER 1)
by blondie 6 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
The Searcher
A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 5 months ago
FusionTheism
Carefully Examine the Scriptures like the Beroean
by FusionTheism 10 months ago



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Reflections on 42 Years of Apostasy
by TD 6 years ago 2 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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TD
TD 6 years ago

....That was the title of a lecture given by Sandra Tanner in 2002. In the Mormon church, Ms. Tanner is arguably the "Grandmother of all apostates."
Criticizing any church provokes some very human defensive responses and these are almost identical from church to church. Below is some of the correspondence that Ms. Tanner has recieved. Does any of it sound familiar?

"Criticism of this religion is criticism of God"
Are you not afraid of the consequences of what you are doing? Its APOSTASY that you are doing. It could have been better for you if you have not known the truth and then deny it.The church is true, i know it with all my heart. Pls stop destroying it. Remember what happened to Korihor? To Zezrom? We will be judge someday for everything that we do,.Pls stop doing this, if you have fallen away from the church then do not try to pull others down. I pity you for being doing this.

"You're just mean"
I think you are a cruel woman. Why must you attack the morman church? Why do you care if people believe in this? What have mormons done to you? Mormons are honest, hardworking people of faith. They serve their God and try to be good people. Yes, some make mistakes but who are you to say how evil they are? Are you God? I didn't think so. I think you are terribly disturbed and you need help.

"You left because of your own moral flaws"
I feel a true sorrow for those that have strayed from God's true church. If you can't live the commandments, please don't justify your lack of self control by trying to tear down The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It will do no good. Read the Book of Mormon, pray for help, and PLEASE, seek for forgiviness and come back to what you know to be true.

"You're bitter and sad"
Your so sad, and lost. If a word can describe the site that you associate with, it would be Lightminded with no factual basis for existence in the search for real truth. You offer nothing but disgruntled bitterness. Sad so Sad. Your loving brother, Rex. "He lives and his love is real", "he never forgets those who see there mistake and return to his fold".

"God is gonna get you for this"
The to of you are like the whoremongers of old, you whore out yourselves for money as you fight against the Lamb's Church and his innocent people. the spiritual blood of any who aposticize due to your lies and disgusting practices of money-changing-will be upon your heads at the last day of judgement-make no mistake, you will be in front of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who will declare to you..."depart from me, sandra and jerald tanner, you who would to wickedness in my name, ye who do evil continually, depart and go to the buring lakes of brimestone prepared for all anti-christs before the foundation of the world..
I just wanna say that i hope you have fun talking with our heavenly father in the afterlife. It's people like you that have nothing better to do then to stir up crap. Leave your opinions to yourself. Why do you have to put anti anything up on the internet. I have been a member of the LDS church for thirty years and can honestly say that after reading your crap I am glad to know that I am in the lords true church. I find it funny that the church has grown as much as it has and is one of the welthiest churches in the world if not the most I wonder why Because its true and the members know it and follow the teachings of our prophet and general authorities. Talk about ripping off people for money your books are a joke only losers with no time on their hand have bought your books

"You can't let go"
Why do people spend so much time thinking about the mormon church, must have nothing else better to do.

"The Church is true because it's true"
I am a member of the Church. I have been for 7 years. I know with all my heart that it is true. Even if the whole world denounced the church and I was the only member left, that knowledge cannot go away. I feel great sadness when I read Tanner's (and others') garbage.

"You're willing servants of Satan"
First of all, because they so blatantly deny the truth and make mockery of the things which are sacred and thus bring upon themselves some very serious consequences. And that makes me sad because they are, like me, sones and daughters of God and thus, my brothers and sisters. Second reason I am sad is because there are others who are lead away by these "anti-Mormons". I feel like Satan is laughing. But he will not support his followers and the last day, neither will he be laughing forever.

"Hummph! I'm not misled"
Dear Sister, I am a new convert to the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints. I can tell you for sure that I have not been brained washed by the church or the authorities. I love the church and know that it is true. I have a testimony that it is true. Also I know for a fact that we lived with Heavenly Father before this life. He wants us all to return to him. I will be receiving my endowments in September.

"God uses the church despite the imperfections of its people"
I find this all so disturbing. Why would anyone make it their lives work to break down other people's faith or keep people from the truth. I have only been attending the church for 8 years but it has been an incredible 8 years. I have met some great people and have been taken care of by my church family. It is difficult at times to keep all of the commandments and do what is expected of me but the blessing flow my way when I do. I love my church. I love the members and I can't imagine anyone being hurt by this church. Yes, there are some problems but we are all human. There are problems in every church. I think you can see Jesus in the hearts of the members that I know. I have never met a member I didn't love! This is the true church and I only wish I could bottle what I have felt every day since I became a member. Last Saturday I attended the baptism of a 15 year old boy who has a tough family life. The church has changed his life and his testimony is amazing for such a young boy. I don't know what happened to you but it is clear that Satan is at the helm. I will pray for you!

Active Witnesses should have no trouble seeing that every single one of these responses is predicated upon the acceptance of doctrines and precepts unique to the Mormon church. None of these responses have any validity unless and until those assumptions are proven.
Seriously --- Is God really going to punish those who disagree with the leadership of the Mormon church?
...There's a lesson to be learned here
 
RosePetal
RosePetal 6 years ago

Very interesting TD thanks for posting the mormons and the Witnesses are like two bookends holding together two worthless pieces of false prophet literature the book of mormon and the watchtower, doing their normal rants, no one is aloud to question them. They can demonise every other faith including each other but any one dares critisize any of their teachings they throw a giant wobbly and label them apostates.
Has any body thought of swapping the JW apologists rants over to mormons website and vice versa. Perhaps they can all sleep together and produce a hybred offspring and call them the Russell Rutherford Moroneites. That was my hubbys input . LOL

RosePetal
 
AWAKE&WATCHING
AWAKE&WATCHING 6 years ago

*sticky note*
 

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Mormon vs JW experience
by thraxer68 6 years ago 29 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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thraxer68
thraxer68 6 years ago

I was browsing some ex-mormon forums and I noticed that many of the experiences sound similar. People spoke about brain washing, viewing outsiders as being ignorant of the truth, im not sure if im allowed to copy and paste from other forums, if im not please let me know but here are a couple quotes from ex mormon forums:
"Something I very strongly believe, is that even though everything has crumbled to the ground for me right now, I wouldn't change the fact that I left the church for anything. I know it's the source of my unhappiness, but it's not because I left "the truth" and am bitter about what I've done. No, it's because the church teaches to put religion before family, and that's what mine has done. I'm the odd one out, the outcast, the black sheep(I won't say ugly duckling, because I'm a dashing young fellow ;) ) and it's all thanks to the church's mentality that they come first, and family comes second."
and another that I think ALOT of JW's can relate to:
"It's quite funny because the church constantly says how important the family is, but yet when a family member goes inactive or leaves altogether, it's all of a sudden an "us vs. them" attitude..."
"Whenever members of the church say, "Even if the church isn't true, it teaches good things!" I always think to myself, "OF COURSE they teach good things. Would they really garner any new members and retain their current members if they didn't have a front?"
The previous quotes were from one person, Heres one from another person on the same thread:
"Mormonism so clearly destroys families. You MUST conform or else you're out... It's like getting punched in the face, and having the aggressor apologize that you found it hurtful. They aren't even apologizing for what they've done; they are apologizing for how you have reacted."
Is leaving JW's difficult because you are in fact leaving "the truth", the church of God? or is it because you are leaving a controlling religion? It sounds to me like many of the experiences shared on this forum are common of both JW and Mormonism. I would imagine that leaving the church of the ONE TRUE GOD AND CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would be different than leaving some crazy left field religion like LDS (in JW perception, I disagree with their teachings but this thread is not meant to debate theology). It would appear that having the true HOLY SPIRIT withdrawn from you would be quite a different experience than leaving a church who is not favored by God where you didnt have any Holy Spirit in the first place. However, many of the experiences sound the same. One question I have though is if there has been as much research into brainwashing and mind control in Mormonism as there has been in JW. I thought this would be a good opportunity to gather these quotes onto one thread to demonstrate the similarities between controlling authoritarian religions to show that the whole experience with JW's is fairly common and not unique to "the truth". Perhaps people with more insight and knowledge of both religions might be able to explain the similarities between the Mormon and JW experience more clearly and in depth. Thank you
 
Mythbuster
Mythbuster 6 years ago

One question I have though is if there has been as much research into brainwashing and mind control in Mormonism as there has been in JW.
I think brainwashing and mind control is non-denominational.
 
Mad Dawg
Mad Dawg 6 years ago

You are fine in quoting from another board. When you do, please provide links to that board.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

A guy told me that he had been raised in a cult, the Plymouth Bretheren.
When he described his father throwing him out of home for questioning 'The Truth' he used many of the same mantras my father uses talking to me.
When I told him I had been raised JW, he said that they were very different from the PB and and that I couldn't possibly understand what his upbringing was like.  Did I have news for him?
He has recovered from his upbringing and has a wonderful wife and family that his father has never met.

Cheers
Chris
 
alice.in.wonderland
alice.in.wonderland 6 years ago

I received this information here along with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion from men in a black helicopter.
http://www.cephas-library.com/jw/jw_jw_lds_same_origin.html
The Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Same Organization
Russell's family was formerly known as Roessel and went to Scotland from Germany. Of course, Germany is a massive occult centre, from which the Rothschilds emerged, and Scotland is one of the key areas of the world for Illuminati bloodlines. From the start, Charles Taze Russell used his new Watchtower Society, based at Bethel, Brooklyn, New York, as a front for black magic, or Enochian magic as his brand of Satanism was called. He put the flying Sun disk on the front of his books, an ancient Illuminati symbol going back to Egypt and Babylon. The Watchtower magazine has always been a mass of subliminal and less subliminal occult symbolism and the very name, Watchtower, is part of Illuminati and Freemasonic legend and code. To them watchtowers are areas of the "magical universe". The unseen realms. Russell was buried under a pyramid in the United States after being ritually killed on Halloween 1917. These leading Satanists of the Illuminati are ritually killed when their time comes in line with their obsession with ritual. To them, everything is ritual. Again and again the Jehovah's Witness church is named by survivors of trauma-based mind control as being involved in these unspeakable mind control projects.
The Mormons were also created as a front for Satanism and, like the Watchtower Society, Enochian magic.
 
StAnn
StAnn 6 years ago

My little brother left the JWs and became Mormon. He married a Mormon woman. At first he loved it. He has since left it. His experience is not germane to this because he wasn't in for long, just a few years, but since he and his Mormon wife divorced, he has met another Mormon woman and they have been dating for about four years. She was a born-in Mormon. She's been inactive for years. Even though she does not embrace the Mormon faith anymore, her family treats her pretty much the same. They don't shun her. When her mother died, her brother was very kind and advanced her a lot of her inheritance before the estates was settled because she needed cash. Both my brother's Mormon ex-wife and Mormon girlfriend have been shocked at how the JWs in the family treat my brother.
At the same time, my brother's girlfriend says that a lot of Mormon women suffer from depression because the standard of womanly perfection is held up in front of their faces all the time.
Although I don't agree with Mormon theology (and I did study it when my brother became Mormon), it hasn't been as destructive of a force in the lives of the born-in Mormons that I've met through him and the JWs have been to those of us born-in to the WTS.
StAnn
 
inkling
inkling 6 years ago

alice in wonderland, or just the mad hatter?

-inkling
 
alice.in.wonderland
alice.in.wonderland 6 years ago

"alice in wonderland, or just the mad hatter?
-inkling"
I read information like the above information I posted years ago. It sounded very bizarre. To those who don't believe in Satan, you have to wonder where people get this stuff from. Some people are crazy, that's the only explanation. If the above were actually true, contact the FBI so they can launch a formal investigation.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago


It sounded very bizarre
Written by a nut job with little evidence to back it up and plenty to contradict it.
Why bother to post it? I really don't see any point to it.

Chris
 
palmtree67
palmtree67 6 years ago

Alice, is English your first language?
 
alice.in.wonderland
alice.in.wonderland 6 years ago

" Written by a nut job with little evidence to back it up and plenty to contradict it.
Why bother to post it? I really don't see any point to it.
Chris"
I noticed an attempt to draw similarities between Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and mind control was mentioned so what I read sometime back came to mind. This is the type of literary output disseminated by individuals known as Christian theorists. It's a phenomenon that's actually somewhat popular outside mainstream Christianity.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/
http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cuttingedge.html
The Cutting Edge is another Rapture Cult website that is making substantial inroads into Remnant circles. In what could be dubbed the Second Wave, this site represents a rather dangerous form of Rapturism in that such "ministries" have adapted themselves so that they appear more like the true Remnant ministries that have had some success in the last few years in drawing people out of the Whore of Babylon.
A writer named David Bay is the driving force behind the site. In his literary output, he borrows heavily from those outside the mainstream in that he writes on 'flashy' subjects such as UFO's, the Nephilim, the New World Order, and so forth. With this topical subject matter, few suspect that he is just as mainstream as say, Hal Lindsey. Worse yet, Bay is clearly willing to hide the Cult belief system that underpins his ministry in order to draw in more adherents.
Deceivers of this breed are crafty and have learned to use the Internet as an outreach to pick off those that are in crucial transition from the Cult. The classic definition of a tare, such look like the genuine article, but when you strip away the appealing topical subject matter, the theology is the same Antichrist teaching taught by the Rapture Cult for over a century.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago


I noticed an attempt to draw similarities between Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and mind control was mentioned
So what? It was a crappy attempt and was full of holes.
There are plenty of similarities between JW and Mormon and many other cults, without using crappy stuff like that as some sort of ammunition for something.

Chris
 
alice.in.wonderland
alice.in.wonderland 6 years ago

"Alice, is English your first language?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Hatter
In the Disney animated feature Alice in Wonderland, the Mad Hatter appears as a short, hyper, tea-loving person.
I get ya... I googled the two characters. I've actually never seen the cartoon or movie so I didn't know what that person was talking about.
 
not a captive
not a captive 6 years ago

Here was something a Morman woman said that pushed me toward the exit of the KH.
I was talking to her about Witnesses having the stability of the Bible so that we couldn't be tricked.
She said that they have prophets that tell them new revelations.
She said that we have them too.
I thought for a minute and realized that she was correct.
The GB could change the meaning of the Bible for us and we have to accept it or be kicked out.
 
avishai
avishai 6 years ago

Ah, yes, but alice still thinks that logical fallacies will work here just as easily as @ the hall. Sorry, alice, but as they say "that dog won't hunt". The "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" stuff is much harder to use on those of us who've already pulled the wool from our own eyes.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

When I was a kid we went where the need Wasn't Needed at All.
The Mormons arrived a couple of years after us. Dad laughed at their recruiting techniques.
The Yearbook skited how well we were doing and how our success was a result of Holy Spirit.

Fast forward to 2009. Score: JWs just over 200, Mormons 2000

Who got Joe Ho Ho Ho's present's in their sock???

Cheers
Chris
 
thraxer68
thraxer68 6 years ago

Interesting stuff, it just seems like while the finer details such as specific beliefs and technical things like temple as opposed to KH are different, it would appear that they are pretty similar in a more broad sense. I guess Im also kind of interested in the thought process of a DF'd or DA'd JW compared to that of an ex-mormon. I know that the experience of becoming an ex JW can be devastating. Is that experience similar to that of an ex-mormon? It doesn't appear that leaving either religion is a nice happy mutual disagreement kind of deal. I remember one member on this forum posted a list of their thoughts that they had. I dont remember the thoughts specifically but they included things to the effect of "Jehovah's going to destroy me", etc...there was along list. How does that cognitive aspect compare to that of an ex-mormon? Are the emotional and psychological effects as adverse? I don't know that mormons practice DF-ing or anything similar as a part of their doctrine, if they do then I would imagine it could be the same but Im not sure. Any info?
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

Next time you get a chance to talk to them, just relate the cultish side of your own upbringing or WT experiences to them.
Watch their eyes. You can tell when you hit a chord.

Cheers
Chris
 
designs
designs 6 years ago

I grew up around some heavy weights in the LDS, our family doctor B.Hinkley was related to the LDS President and Leon Skousen, author of The Naked Communist, was a friend of my mother, and my folks played bridge with a group of LDS. We studied with them for awhile but it was to fanciful in terms of their rewritten history of western civilization and the lost tribe.
We made the much brighter move and became active in the Watchtower...........


 
lesabre
lesabre 6 years ago

alice.... jw's and mormons have alot in common... except for the magic underwear and the weird ceremonies. and they can't be fully submersed in water during their "missions".... or something like that.
 

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Mormon vs JW experience
by thraxer68 6 years ago 29 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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St George of England
St George of England 6 years ago

Russell was buried under a pyramid in the United States after being ritually killed on Halloween 1917.
Whatever you think of Russell, he died on train on October 31, 1916 (not 1917) and he is not buried under the Pyramid but a few feet away. The Pyramid was built by his friends about 4 or 5 years later.
George
 
DaCheech
DaCheech 6 years ago

alice, watch big love on cable
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

One question I have though is if there has been as much research into brainwashing and mind control in Mormonism as there has been in JW. I thought this would be a good opportunity to gather these quotes onto one thread to demonstrate the similarities between controlling authoritarian religions to show that the whole experience with JW's is fairly common and not unique to "the truth". Perhaps people with more insight and knowledge of both religions might be able to explain the similarities between the Mormon and JW experience more clearly and in depth. Thank you
I don't know how much research has been done, but there are endless books and websites that show that the Mormons are a dangerous mind-control cult. I think it's better established for them than it is for the JW's, thanks to the fringe LDS cults with men taking multiple (often teen) wives.
The problem is that experts disagree and cults themselves get their "expert" opinion in there. "We are not a cult because we don't live in a compound or have a single, charismatic leader." Even outsiders argue over it. Heck, we have many former JW's that don't want to admit they were in a former dangerous mind-control cult, so they say JW's don't qualify.
When you read Steve Hassan's COMBATTING CULT MIND CONTROL, you can be amazed how the words fit JW's although the words are describing the Moonies.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 6 years ago

I believe that, if you are quoting from a public part of another forum and provide a link, you are OK. People might be interested in finding out what else is on that board. It's when you paste something from a private part of the board, or a private message, without permission from whoever posted it there that you can create problems.
As for whether the witlesses are difficult to leave, I think they are even worse. They will happily bust up a family if one quits believing what "the church" says. Their term for "the church" is "the Society". If you quit believing in them or you break one of their rules, you can be disfellowshipped. If you quit the group, you are disassociated. Both are treated as if they are dead, and they encourage families to break off contact except where absolutely necessary with such persons. They might still have to associate with minors still living with parents if either are disfellowshipped, and a disfellowshipping of one spouse does not automatically end a marriage. However, grown children or relatives are in fact cut off if one party decides to leave or if they break a rule.
As bad, many congregations try to put a barrier between two disfellowshipped people. They don't even want disfellowshipped people talking with other disfellowshipped people! This includes family members, except where contact is absolutely necessary, in a marriage, or a minor living with parents. This is usually enforced within the congregations, however, and is not uniform throughout the organization.
 
palmtree67
palmtree67 6 years ago

"Alice, is English your first language?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Hatter
In the Disney animated feature Alice in Wonderland, the Mad Hatter appears as a short, hyper, tea-loving person.
I get ya... I googled the two characters. I've actually never seen the cartoon or movie so I didn't know what that person was talking about.

Actually, this was a Yes/No question.
I have no clue what you are talking about.........
 
rebel8
rebel8 6 years ago

I created a comparison chart with the help of some ex-Mormons. Very interesting similarities.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 6 years ago

Exclusionary religions share many of the same characteristics. I think this goes hand in hand with the claims of restorationism, which argue that a "restored" and "pure" christianity has been organized in the modern era.
These religions tend to have more intense experiences because they are more direct in their beliefs. They see the world in terms of "spiritual battle", us vs. them, the chosen vs. the dammed.
As such, people who leave these kinds of groups are more likely to talk about how miserable they were under all the pressures and problems that come with those beliefs.
Keep in mind that both the Mormons and JWs developed at the same time in American history, and share many of the same "restorationist" values.
 
Balsam
Balsam 6 years ago

I remember when I left in 2001, I began to talk to mormons then I did some research on them and found ex-mormons felt just like we did when we left the jw's. Brain washing used to be touted as a good thing in the jw's you know we got our brain washed by Jehovah weekly. Now looking back it was hardly funny. Thanks god some of us are waking up and finding a good life and are no longer trapped, depressed, loosing out on life.
Ruth
 
IsaacJ22
IsaacJ22 6 years ago

Some folks on my father's side of the family were Mormon wannabes who couldn't abstain from cigarettes and drink. To me, they're like JWs, only their beliefs are even further from the mainstream of Protestant Christianity in the US. I always thought of the Mormons as the misbegotten love child of the WTS and the Church of Scientology. :smile:
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 6 years ago

The similarities are scary. My cousin and my aunt (now deceased) are/were mormon's.
Years ago, the mormons built a 'temple' locally, and my aunt invited me to the grand opening of it. I promised her I would go - but I had no interest in any religion after my experiences with JWs.
I went, and toured the 'temple', which was quite interesting.
When leaving the parking lot to go to eat lunch with the relatives, my cousin was riding with me in my VW. We passed a group of 'protestors' (I guess you'd call them that), who had set up a table on the sidewalk across the street, and were handing out literature that was labeling the mormon's as a cult. (I think that they also had anti-JW literature there too - I didn't go over and look to see, though.)
My cousin's reaction was quite shocking to me, and reminded me very much of a JW reaction. She snorted that she wished that she could go over there (meaning to their table), and take ALL of their literature, and throw it into the trash, so that they didn't have any left to hand out!
I calmly reminded her that we lived in a country that promoted freedom of speech and religion, and that those people had every right to be there. I also told her that there were many people who were perhaps hurt by their experience in the mormon's and felt that that was their only way to express that hurt.
She mumbled some sort of agreement, and we let it drop.
Regards,

Jim TX
 

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Topic Summary
i was browsing some ex-mormon forums and i noticed that many of the experiences sound similar.
people spoke about brain washing, viewing outsiders as being ignorant of the truth, im not sure if im allowed to copy and paste from other forums, if im not please let me know but here are a couple quotes from ex mormon forums:.
"something i very strongly believe, is that even though everything has crumbled to the ground for me right now, i wouldn't change the fact that i left the church for anything.



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