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Are there books you still keep?
by Eyebrow 15 years ago 8 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw experiences
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Eyebrow
Eyebrow 15 years ago


I have found that the following books are still of interest and use to me, although I have 'walked away' from JW:
1. Greatest Man Whoever Lived
a lot of nice general info about Jesus' life that is easy to read
2. Mankind's Search for God
this was the first book I had read that covers (albeit lightly) other religions. I learned how so many are similiar, and it piqued my interest in learning more about them.
3. The Great Teacher Book
a great book with to use to show how kids can apply bible lessons in their own life. Again, I don't agree anymore with all the lessons, but still a nice read book geared to be read out loud.
4. My Book Of Bible Stories
Easy to understand book that takes kids through the bible chronologically. Again, there are a few stories that many nonJWs may object too, but overall, it gives a really good overview of characters in the bible.
I have kept most of my books....partly because I am a packrat, and partly out of nostalgia. I chucked my back issues, but kept the bound volumes, cordances, bibles, etc.
What have you kept?
 
mike047
mike047 15 years ago

HI, I have some bound vols. wt & awake. and several of the newer books. About 25 years of yearbooks. I also have a small collection of the judges "rainbow books". several copies of the nwt.
I don't use any of these. I do have a reprint copy of russell's "studies" vol 1-6. I am currently finishing it.
 
Prisca
Prisca 15 years ago


I've still kept all my books. They are useful for when people refer to statements different books made.
I have also bought a few Rutherford-era books, ones I found in second-hand bookshops and book stalls. I also bought a few off Randy's freeminds site.
I've built up my book collection over my life as a JW, so they tend to be a bit of a sentimental thing for me. I doubt I will ever sell them - there are certainly some I will always keep for reference.
 
Angharad
Angharad 15 years ago


We've still got all our books, mainly for reference but we've not used them for ages. I thought about getting rid of some the other week, but couldn't bring myself to do it for some reason.
The Daniel's Prophecy book is quite useful at the moment, underneath part of the hampster cage making in level
 
Eyebrow2
Eyebrow2 15 years ago

Sheesh!!!! hahaahh!
 
Pablo Picasso
Pablo Picasso 15 years ago

the only books i'm going to keep when i get out are the two versions of the Live Forever book.
 
Hope4Others
Hope4Others 8 years ago

Hello,
I have only kept wt volumes no awakes, one nwt bible, all bibles bought at a book store that have nothing to do with jw's and any old, old books that have come into possession
that reference early bible doctrine from the beginings.These are the books no one wants you to have. I guess these are the ones that have helped to see things differently and have brought
me to this point in life. Being able to see for myself what others on this site have pointed out. For some reason the "Old light is more enlighting then the New light".
Hope4Others
 
Cc81
Cc81 8 years ago

I kept my bible.. and the my book of bible storys book.. I had both of them from the time i was a baby.. I threw the rest away. I cant STAND looking at them. Makes me sick to my stomach
 
Quandry
Quandry 8 years ago

Just wanted to welcome HOPE FOR OTHERS!!!!!
 

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I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Many of you may know that I was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder. I was unusual in that, even as a witness I studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer. My first was in Chemistry and my Master’s is in Business Administration. Despite my higher education I was still able to reconcile much of what I believed with what I was learning, although I didn’t believe in things like a world-wide flood, or that man was only 6000 thousand years old, I genuinely believed that these things were not important and that there would be clarification as time went on. On the whole there was a creator, and he had a plan for humankind and what I had learned from the WTS since I was a baby, seemed to have a ring of truth about it. My beliefs were based on the Watch Tower's interpretation of the religious texts that make up what is now called "The Holy Bible", so when I started challenging my own beliefs, in 2009, the authenticity of the bible was my starting point.
I started applying the critical thinking had learned in college to this book and Pandora’s-box was opened. I used to give a public talk called “Appreciating the Marvels of Creation”, in which the outline pointed out the immense size of the Universe. It really showed me how insignificant we are in the scheme of things. When I was preparing this talk back in the early 90’s I thought that we were no more significant in the Universe than a mould growing on leaf in a tree in my garden. I wouldn’t even notice it, let alone care about it. Almost 2 decades later, I really started to ponder this and then contrast this knowledge with the way the bible was written. The bible indicated that the Earth and mankind were central to the universe. In the bible the impression is given that everything was put here for our benefit. That was blatantly untrue. Our galaxy is one of billions, each of which contains billions of stars, our star the sun is not particularly big and only really important to us. We also know that stars eventually run out of fuel and go through a life cycle, some ending up as neutron stars others as phenomena known as black holes.
It seemed to me that this the bible, reflected the thoughts of people who really didn’t appreciate the immensity of the universe, people who could only view things from their perspective here on Earth, without the benefit of telescopes and other Instrumentation. But wasn’t the bible inspired by the creator? Surely if it was, the truth of our insignificance would have been highlighted. There would have been some indication of how the universe was structured, countless groups of countless stars, all of which would one day use up their fuel and go extinct. But it doesn’t, the bible says the stars are permanent and each has a name. This alone undermined my faith in the bible. But it wasn’t the only thing.
The more I examined the bible without the aid of Watch Tower or other religious literature they more nonsensical it became. A creation account where light came about before, the sun and moon, everything created in six days, talking snakes, god punishing the whole human race because the first humans ate from a forbidden fruit tree.
Then there were angels materialising into humans, and having sex with women, who subsequently gave birth to aggressive giants. God was so angry with what was going on that he decided to bring an end to the wickedness. How did he do this? By simply killing the wicked the wicked people on Earth with a targeted disease, or just vaporising them into non-existence. No!! He decided he was going to destroy ALL life, human and animal, extremely violently and mercilessly by a global flood. Oh, except one family and a pair of each species. And this twoddle is found in just the first book. Subsequent books saw even more scientific and historic inaccuracies, glorification of violence, m isogynist attitudes and xenophobia. We must forget the endorsing of rape, slavery, child abuse and animal cruelty.

The New Testament wasn’t any better. Stories of a virgin giving birth to a boy, who grew up to be a man of magic, walking on water and raising people from the dead, during the Roman occupation of Judea. Yet there being no contemporary records of this miracle worker who was crucified by the Roman authorities, for subversion. The Romans were meticulous at keeping records, yet they neglected to record this. Oh and we mustn't forget the continuing misogyny, and the the homophobic rantings of the apostle Paul.
Then there is the bible’s description of god. A jealous, partisan genocidal maniac, who is happy to kill children for minor misdemeanours and annihilate nations for disobeying rules that they could know nothing about, because these rules had never been disseminated to them. The bible god expects his creation to worship him, yet he never globally shows himself or communicates directly with his intelligent creation. You would have thought now that we can see into the depth of the Universe he would find a way wouldn’t you?
In addition, he provides a book full of scientific inaccuracies and mythological mumbo-jumbo and expects us to believe it or die. Oh yeah, did I mention he is partisan, he allowed well over half the world to develop cultures that make no mention of him and the people who are born into these cultures will be punished for this. It didn’t take long for me to see the bible for what it is, a book of myths and fairy tales. My conclusion is that the bible is of no more value than the complete works of Agatha Christie, an interesting read in places, but not a book to look for the answers to the big questions, and certainly not a book to provide guidance on how to live my life.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Science trumps Genesis, without Genesis being accurate eveything that follows in terms of divine intervention or a savior becomes a mute point.
Enjoy the morality tales, be a good neighbor, care for the earth; those lessons are valuable.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

If you read the bible with the assumption that the bible is a human work written in a pre-scientific world it makes perfect sense.
If you read it with the supposition that it was inspired by a supernatural being it becomes necessary to perform mental gymnastics at every page.
It is this general point rather than any specifics that convinces me.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

The bible is certainly not self authenticating in any way.
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 4 years ago

I'm of the same opinions Canteave, ...now if only that little niggle of prophecy would go away too I'd be a lot happier about it.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Hmmm - prophecy! Now that's athread in itself. I would like to see evidence that their has been a prophecy written in advance that came true?
 
THE GLADIATOR
THE GLADIATOR 4 years ago

Some Bible writers claimed that they were inspired or spoke from God as they were born along by holy spirit. Alas, self praise is no man’s recommendation. Many Christians now reject the notion that the Bible is God’s word.
Trying to make sense of our present world by reading an ancient book will not work. Books such as the Bible will only help us understand ancient civilizations. They attributed all unknown phenomenon to mystical spirits and gods.
The Bible has value as a snapshot of their time. They tell us how people thousands of years ago thought, lived and how they made sense of their existence with the limited knowledge they had.
 
shamus100
shamus100 4 years ago

Plain and simple - it's bat-shit crazy, IMO.
KISS ME OR I'LL SICK A SHE-BEAR ON YOU!
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 4 years ago

The bible was inspired by god belief, which was rooted in and created from human ignorance.
Why has there been so many gods imagined by the many human civilizations in the past ?
Human ignorance should be accepted as a known fact.
Unfortunately there many religionists still today who do not hold to this acceptance.
The bible in my opinion at least should be only used as historical reference.
 
shamus100
shamus100 4 years ago

It's interesting to see how religion has evolved in strange places you would never think of. You should see how the church and mummy worship have intertwined each other and allowances were made in modern religion.
Religion evolves - much like mankind. What is the hell in the bible? It's the hell that you can make your life hating everything and being angry at flying invisible pink unicorns and such.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Does anyone here believe the bible is inspired of God? Surely Chritians must, because without the New testament they have nothing on which to base their faith.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

I dated a she-bear Witness from LA and lived to tell about it!
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago


Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.[1] 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said[2], “Let there be light[3],” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.[4]
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.[5]
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.[6]
 11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.[7]
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.[8]
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [9]
 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
 in the image of God he created them;
 male and female he created them.[10]
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” [11]
 29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.[12]
1. The first verse of the Bible actually is just a paraphrase of the entire document of chapter 1. The rest is a human attempt at elaboration.
2. It's assumed that God is not actually using spoken language here because there is nothing to speak to. Therefore the concept of "speach" is actually just a literary device for describing the creative process of God. The writer would have no way of conceptualizing the means of which God created our existence therefore has to crudely depict the process through the spoken language of his time.
3. At this point we are forced to put our scientific instruments down and put our philosopher caps on. This is written by a human after all before the creation of the scientific method. It's important to put one's self within the writer's shoes so-to-speak to get the sense of what's being written. Once the original purpose is discerned then the instruments can be pulled back out. "Let there be light." What was the writers idea of light? It would likely not go beyond the sun, the moon, the stars, fire and lightening. So the writer could be trying to depict the creation of the process that generates light or electromagnetic radiation. "Let there be electromagnetic radiation" might be able to be switched in, imo.
4. The ancient context makes the days and seasons much more pivotal in the writers life and subsequent tone. I would guess that days and nights held deeper meaning to the people of the writers time. A "first day" and a "first night" are really just literary philosophical devices. For simplication they can be said to represent the inherent separation between the world of light and the world of darkness.
5. The sky, as science tells, it now is much different than what the writer knew it to be. The sky was much more mystical to them than it is to us. They knew it had a deep purpose within the cycle of life, but the details seemed to forever evade them. The story is attempting to describe the atmosphere which includes the water cycle, the ozone etc. At the end of verse six there is mention of time passing in a measurable way. This is a theme throughout the piece and seems to hold a special importance.
6. The earth started out as molten land and then was given water by an asteroid. The writer seems to have it backwards. Yet the message remains the same in both versions and that's that there is a separation between land and water that took place in the beginning. The earth didn't start out with inhabitable continents separated by seas. There was a process to that. The mistake of the writer is along the same lines of thinking the earth was the center of the universe or that it was flat. All justifyable mistakes because of lacking knowledge.
7. I believe the story has the floura forming on the earth very similar to the way scientists have found it to be so. Before there was complex life there were less complex life. Small fauna and all types of flora came before anything really large and complex.
8. As we read in many ancient writings they has always been a very wrong view of how the sun and the stars actually work. I think this is par for the course. Although there is wordage in the story's explanation of the sun and moon worth giving a second or third look.
9. The writer now describes more complex life in all the life habitats: land, sea and air. So far Genesis 1, in my opinion, follows the evolutionary story incredibly well for being writting many thousands of years ago.
10. Remember who's point of view the story is being presented by: YHWH the creator of the universe and his celestial creations. This story is an ancient human trying to describe the actions of the creators of the universe. So when we get to the evolution of man we are described the god's making us in "their image" so that they can rule over the animals like they rule over the universe. This is because the writer and his culture see a big difference between themselves and the animals. They also knew that they could survive off of the meat of the animals. They probably had debates about admitting their own behaviour in relation to their animal neighbors. Some were probably of herbivore decent and others carnivore decent. We still have this debate today with hunters and vegans.
11. The humans had had much time to test their hypothesis that the world was in subjection to them. It would not be illogical to assume this as generations pass by while you subdue your environment. Therefore when the writer describes the purpose of mankind it involves further subduing the planet which requires procreation. It's a rather eloquently simply answer to the meaning to life, imo.
12. The story concludes with imagry of humans frollocking about and subduing the earth and YHWH ever so pleased with the work. In essence that's exactly what still happening today. There is no reason to believe that YHWH hasn't been pleased with what has transpired. Maybe not in whole, but there has been a lot of frollocking, but a lot of ignorance and sorrow too. The NIV dubs this block "The Beginning" of which I disagree with. I would call it the Bible's version of the "The Ascent of Man." That said the next few chapters in genesis could be decribed as the "Descent of Man" which I believe is still going on today.
-Sab
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

So Sab you agree, written by men not inspired by God?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of God-Why do you?
It gives me hope. I've not seen a better deal being offered to me.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Ucantnome - I respect your honesty. I don't mean to be disrespectful but would you agree that providing hope is not evidence of veracity?
 
diamondiiz
diamondiiz 4 years ago

Bible the creation by higher class of men to control lower class. Lower class was more ignorant and so many of us were when we believed in this BS while dubs. Once we look outside of religious nonsense we see it for what it really is and we either close our eyes to the reality that the bible is just another book written by men. Or we can delude ourselves into imagining it's God's word because we can't fathom the idea that there is no God and we'll cease to exist once we die. And then there are those hearing Jesus talking to them.....
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

So Sab you agree, written by men not inspired by God?
I believe that 1 Tim 3:16 describes the process of which it was written by God.

2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
^ I started a thread that elaborates my current belief.
-Sab
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Veracity, Adherence to the truth; truthfulness
I had to look it up. Shows the sort of intelligence I have.
Are you asking me to prove beyond doubt that the Bible is inspired or whether I believe it too be?
 
cedars
cedars 4 years ago

I can handle most parts of the bible, but I just can't stomach the senseless slaughter of innocent children in the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures). I always had a problem with this for as long as I can remember. Genocide churns the stomach whether it is divinely sponsored or not.
I also struggle with Paul's homophobia and mysogynistic remarks. It's a shame that Jesus isn't recorded as speaking out on his viewpoint of homosexuality to set the record straight. The fact that he used women as his messengers following his resurrection itself indicates to me that he had an altogether more healthy attitude towards women than Paul did.
I'm not sure exactly where I am on the bible at this stage in my life. For years, I've believed that "all scripture is inspired" just because Paul said so. Paul's "take my word for it, honest" approach no longer seems sufficient - particularly when you consider that the bible canon as we know it today was decided on centuries later by men the Society themselves claim had apostasized from the true faith.
That said, I'm not prepared to dismiss the possibility that many of the events described in the bible may have happened. I just personally find it difficult to hold the bible with the same reverence that I once did.

Cedars
 

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I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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cofty
cofty 4 years ago


Are you asking me to prove beyond doubt that the Bible is inspired or whether I believe it too be?
No, its just that there is a danger of following something that offers false hope.
 
xchange
xchange 4 years ago

From the Desk of Karl
1.Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list Himself.
6.The moon is made of green cheese.
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8.Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't use alcohol.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.

(Courtesy of Kissing Hank's Ass)

I believe the bible as much as I believe Karl's words are of divine inspiration.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

What danger is there to being Christian?
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 years ago

What danger is there to being Christian?

Leading a life that is not authentic and does not reach its potential?
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

What danger is there to being Christian?
Kids get oppressed that's where the danger lies. Parents need to keep their beleifs off their children. I am going to raise my kid to be a skeptic. Parenting Beyond Belief is what my wife and I are reading. I am firm believer in kids being allowed to believe or not believe. Too many Watchtower scars...
-Sab
 
simon17
simon17 4 years ago

Leading a life that is not authentic and does not reach its potential?
Without a believe in a higher power there is no technical "purpose" to life therefore technically no way to describe "full potential."
It could very well to live a good life and to be happy to many people. Being a christian, as long as one is tolerant of others, is a fine way to accomplish that goal for many people. For others it is to seek ultimate truth and answers about the universe, or contribute in science in some way. To others it would be help as many people as possible.
The poster said that the Bible is what they believe because its the best offer they have seen. A conscious choice has been made there and it is not dillusional or dangerous. Even if it turns out to be wrong, maybe its the best choice for them. I wish all christians so answered.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Leading a life that is not authentic and does not reach its potential
I thought that being a Christian was to be honest and how do Christians not reach there potential because they are Christian?
I thought God required us to love righteousness that surely means i must be authentic and reach my potential.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 years ago

Without a believe in a higher power there is no technical "purpose" to life therefore technically no way to describe "full potential."

Says who? It means we are free to define and set our own values and goals in life, or not, as we wish. Belief in a God gets in the way of the process, and since all religions are man-made, you end up following the agenda of someone else, while imagining you are following a program set out by God.
 
simon17
simon17 4 years ago

I believe that 1 Tim 3:16 describes the process of which it was written by God.

You've made a littany of notes about special pleadings in Genesis. Day doesn't really mean day. Morning doesnt really mean morning. Light doesn't really mean light. Creating sun/moon/stars doesn't mean he really created them then. Every single verse seems to require some sort of note or explanation. When did people start making those special pleadings? Only after science debunked the logical reading of the book for thousands of years. Bible believers ALWAYS believed the world was created in 6 days. Any idiot would. Only when science showed this was wrong did people reinvent the words. The way it is written led men of science to believe in a geocentric universe for thousands of years. Its only logical. When scienced showed this was wrong, people reinvented what Genesis said again. No one in their right mind would ever read that and think the sun/moon/stars were created BEFORE flowering plants. It clearly doesn't say that. Only after science showed how things works does it get reinvented.

If it was really inspired, it would just describe things in an elementary way, sure, but in a way that wouldn't have MISLED EVERYONE WHO EVER READ IT before science figured things out. Is it that hard to say "In the beginning, there was nothing. Then over a great deal of time, god formed all of the stars, including our sun, creating light. Then over a great deal of time, he formed the earth. " etc etc... Its not hard to write a simple write-up of creation that is not obviously inaccurate (or, for a believer, entirely misleading!)
 
simon17
simon17 4 years ago

Says who? It means we are free to define and set our own values and goals in life, or not, as we wish. Belief in a God gets in the way of the process

And the Christian is not free to set their own values and goals because you find it to be rubbish?
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


What danger is there to being Christian?
The danger of planning your life around something that isn't true.
The danger of being influenced by the bible's dreadful standard of ethics and raising children to do likewise.
The danger of raising children to believe they are inherently sinful.
The danger of viewing all non-christians as enemies of your god, damned by their disbelief.
The danger of believing that the world is going to hell in a handbasket and the end is nigh.
etc
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Sometimes I find it odd that people who have reached out and become elders because they believed they were ones who could teach, for many years taught that God existed and how he should be served including disfellowshipping people who saw Christianity in a different way than they taught, after a short period of time ridicule the God they served.
 
No Room For George
No Room For George 4 years ago

My faith is pretty much bipolar nowadays, so it depends on what day of the week before I can tell you what I believe anymore. I'd say that on good days though, the Bible is STILL NOT inspired of God, however I believe you can find the word of God within the various letters, historical accounts, and the Gospels if you look hard enough all the while being genuine in your motives.
On bad days, I'd say the Bible is NOT inspired of God, and that any intelligent person who believes otherwise needs to believe that it's inspired of God so as to have a coping mechanism. Belief that the Bible is inspired of God provides comfort for those in fear, and that's not limited to those fearing their own mortality. People who fear current events, or have unease about the culture which surrounds them and question where do they fit within it, use the Bible as a sort of validation that tickles the fancy of their own egos, or reassures them of their place in society even if that means validating their wish to not see themselves as part of society.
Regardless though, I still believe that much of what's in the Bible can benefit people. As the old saying goes that there's nothing new under the sun, we can learn off of other people's mistakes and sucesses by familiarizing ourselves with what's in the Bible. Ecclesiastes, Jonah, Peter's letters, James' letter, and the Gospels still remain some of my favorite reading material. Epictetus' teachings on Stoicism is probably the most brilliant bit of reading I've ever had the privilege of taking the time to do, and yet it reminds me so much of Jesus to the point I wonder how much the Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, particulary Matthew, were influenced by Stoicism, or maybe the latter was actually influenced by early Christianity, maybe both?
Another thing, a lot of people find fault with the Apostle Paul's letters, and some days I do too, however I think what gets missed often is that Paul reflected the cultural tenets of his era. While stating that women should be secondary to men, he still praised a handful of women in his journies. I don't buy that he was a misogynist, rather he was relating what he believed to be beneficial to the congregation, and was genuine in relating such. Personally, I think the biggest problem with Paul's letters, was not the man who penned them, but rather what leaders in organized religion today attempt to do with his letters. Case in point, "marry only in the Lord", which ironically enough at the beginning of that same chapter Paul explicitely states to the reader that the words are from him, not that of the Lord. It's good advice on one hand, but certainly not a command, and shouldn't be the basis for Local Needs parts, marking people, or questioning the qualifications of any Pioneer, Elder, Ministerial Servant who supports the couple in any way. Yet, that's exactly what organized religion does. The blood doctrine is another case of religion, particulary one religion, reading WAY TOO FAR into what Luke recorded Paul as relating to the Gentile brothers. I think that can sum up a lot of criticism of the Bible as it's not necessarily what was written, but rather how we read, interpret, and act upon what we've read.
edit post: Funny to me how some people view Paul as being a misogynist, however don't see anything wrong with the woman who washed Jesus feet and then dried his feet with her hair.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cofty you believe that Christians have a dreadful standard of ethics?
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago


Sometimes I find it odd that people who have reached out and become elders because they believed they were ones who could teach, for many years taught that God existed and how he should be served including disfellowshipping people who saw Christianity in a different way than they taught, after a short period of time ridicule the God they served.
In retrospect I NEVER served god, I served a despotic organisation.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Sometimes I find it odd that people who have reached out and become elders because they believed they were ones who could teach, for many years taught that God existed and how he should be served including disfellowshipping people who saw Christianity in a different way than they taught, after a short period of time ridicule the God they served. - Ucantnome
Its not odd at all.
When I discovered for myself that the organisation was not of god I began an intellectual journey. For 9 years I was a very committed born-again evangelical christian. After a while I continued to apply the same critical thinking to my new beliefs that I had used to break free of the cult.
I found that the inspiration of scripture did not stand up to scrutiny. Later I concluded there was no satisfactory answer to the problem of evil. Then I began to read science books and discovered that the evidence for human evolution was incontravertible. I don't mean I read a book or two, it was a task that has so far lasted 6 years.
It became clear to me that I had no need of god - he was redundant.
Being open to evidence is a process that should go on for the rest of our lives.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

NRFG: I still believe that much of what's in the Bible can benefit people. As the old saying goes that there's nothing new under the sun, we can learn off of other people's mistakes and sucesses by familiarizing ourselves with what's in the Bible.

I agree with that, but the same can be said of many books, whether designated "Holy" or not.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

cantleave maybe your right. I always thought I served God. That's why I left. Not that I mean to sound as if I'm better but that is why it seems odd.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


Cofty you believe that Christians have a dreadful standard of ethics?
I believe the bible promotes appalling ethics. Thankfully only crazy people like Pat Robertson and the Westboro bunch actually take it seriously, most christians only pretend to.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- As a former Elder and JW it seems a natural progression to question the existence of God, who was the philosopher who said 'I don't want to believe in a god I can explain', Scientist Richard Feynman said 'God was invented to explain mystery'. The Age of Enlightenment with its scientific advances pulled the curtain on the Wizard of Oz so to speak. Astronomers could see deep space for the first time and measure distant galaxies in the 100s of millions of light years, Genesis was proven false. Once Genesis scientifically was proven wrong the house of cards tumbled.
 

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many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



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I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Being open to evidence is a process that should go on for the rest of our lives.
I think I have had evidence in my life that would support my belief in God.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Part of the waking up process for me was educating myself, or should I say re-educating myself. This resulted in me challenging everything I believed in. I re-examined the doubts I had filed in the back of mind, and read the theories I was too scared to look at before, in case they eroded my faith.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- please explain, was it experiential or measurable as in scientific methods.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago


I think I have had evidence in my life that would support my belief in God.
Is this evidence that would stand up to scientific scrutiny?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

But the wisdom of God and wisdom of man is two different things isnt it?
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


But the wisdom of God and wisdom of man is two different things isnt it?
I'm sorry, that sounds like a cop-out.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago


But the wisdom of God and wisdom of man is two different things isnt it?
It shouldn't be as we are apparently made in god's image.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

You already know that it won't. No I can't recreate it for scientific analysis.
Do you think God should submit himself to man for scientific scrutiny before they believe? Would he still be God if he did?
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

God is love
God is salvation
Heaven is where all time is evident
There is intelligence in heaven (this takes faith to believe)
So there are bodies (personalities) that exist OUT OF TIME. (isn't that what Satan knows he has a short period of time means?) Satan no longer dwells where all time is evident. I suppose if you apply physics to that it means some of Satan is there and some of Satan is here.
Heaven communicates through the brothers of Christ who are on Earth.
Every communication from heaven is for love and life. You believe in those two things, dontcha?
I am as sure as is possible that there are many other things "inspired of god".
So therefore I believe the Bible is inspired of love (God is love) and of life (Christ is life).
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

I'm sorry, that sounds like a cop-out.
That sounds like an excuse.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

No, the Bible isn't inspired. I have always found myself making excuses for it, the miracles and supertitions it contains, as well as god's bizzare and erratic behavior in its stories. Like someone said previously, once you realize it was created by a bunch of guys in darkened, pre-scientific, superstitious societies, it all makes perfect sense. No mental gymnastics, interpretations, or reconciliation with secular history needed.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

But there is only one God an nobody like him. He always existed and always will. Are we like that?
How can you say his wisdom isn't greater than man's?
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

You've made a littany of notes about special pleadings in Genesis. Day doesn't really mean day. Morning doesnt really mean morning. Light doesn't really mean light. Creating sun/moon/stars doesn't mean he really created them then. Every single verse seems to require some sort of note or explanation. When did people start making those special pleadings? Only after science debunked the logical reading of the book for thousands of years. Bible believers ALWAYS believed the world was created in 6 days. Any idiot would. Only when science showed this was wrong did people reinvent the words. The way it is written led men of science to believe in a geocentric universe for thousands of years. Its only logical. When scienced showed this was wrong, people reinvented what Genesis said again. No one in their right mind would ever read that and think the sun/moon/stars were created BEFORE flowering plants. It clearly doesn't say that. Only after science showed how things works does it get reinvented.
The current world cannot explain how the book of Genesis came to be. That makes it one of mankinds biggest mysteries. There is much speculation to where it came from and who penned the words. My break down was an attempt to explain my beliefs about WHAT the document is. Not as the first chapter in the Bible Cannon, but it's placement in the Torah as well. It was meant to be uttered alloud by a "trained professional" to an audience of illiterates. You and I, simon17, are gods compared to the people this document was designed for. Therefore I think it's our responsibility to first interpret for exactly what it WAS. It is a beautiful document that was designed to uplift battered humans into a state of hope and faith within themselves. Where did the hebrews get it? Moses? Where did Moses get it? From God? Well maybe "God" gave it to him, but what does that even mean? I believe you are using your scalpel as a knife to discredit others whereas you should be using it for dissecting this ancient artifact.
-Sab
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- It is not a matter of god submitting to tests its a matter of testing what exists or in theory exists to explain the universe, like Dark Matter for one instance. Someone having a vision or claiming to see an apirition is simply personal and really has no meaning beyond that.
Why is it Catholics see visions of Mary but Evangelicals don't, or why does a believer in Kali able to start and stop the flow of blood; cultural specific phenomenon.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


That sounds like an excuse.
I don't understand your point here. I expained my journey from JW to atheist via christian. You said you had evidence for god but when asked to share it you said god's wisdom is not man's wisdom.
We hear this so often. As a christian I had loads of evidence for god and argued it with a passion. Later I allowed myself to properly consider evidence to the contrary. I never make excuses or hide from evidence on this subject.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Designs everything you believe is only because of your 5 senses? Take them away and what can you believe?
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


The current world cannot explain how the book of Genesis came to be. That makes it one of mankinds biggest mysteries.
Its just one of many ancient documents full of myths and exaggerated history. There is evidence it is a compilation of bits of other older books. There is no mystery about it.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cofty,
Cantleave said this,
Part of the waking up process for me was educating myself, or should I say re-educating myself. This resulted in me challenging everything I believed in. I re-examined the doubts I had filed in the back of mind, and read the theories I was too scared to look at before, in case they eroded my faith.
I said this in reference to this


But the wisdom of God and wisdom of man is two different things isnt it?
I said I had evidence in my life, but why should I share it with you. So you can belittle it and try to destroy my faith?


 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 years ago

The origins of the book of Genesis are only a mystery to people who have never opened a serious book on the subject.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- Explain then the phenomenon that you experienced.
I've had phenomenologial things happen and at the time considered them from God. When I was an addict and at the bottom of my addiction I planned to take my life, I stood on a cliff overlooking the ocean and as I was about to take the plunge my deceased grandmother presence was there and she told me to 'keep living everything was going to be alright'. For many years through my recovery that was an important experience, now I see it as the subconscious at work, but at the time it was very real.
 

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Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



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What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
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by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
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How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



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I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Everything you know is because of your five senses as well.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

I saw JJ Abram's Cloverfield in the theater with my wife. At the end there was this couple sitting next to me and the man yelled, "That it? They all die? That's the sh**iest move I have ever seen!" I remember wanting to reply, "You require a movie to have happy endings? Well then don't whine when you waste your money once in a while." I thoroughly enjoyed the flick myself. It made some people sick, because of the filming style, and that's a real shame. The Bible on the other hand has both a happy start and a happy ending. It's a horror flick, no doubt, but so is the "real" human history. If the middle of the movie bothers you guys so much you should just read the first and last chapters. They are what everything is moving towards.
-Sab
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Its just one of many ancient documents full of myths and exaggerated history. There is evidence it is a compilation of bits of other older books. There is no mystery about it.
SOLVED! LOL.
-Sab
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Designs I have no reason to explain to you.
I think you must work out your own salvation I dont think what ever I say would may the slightest difference to you.
I said
I think I have had evidence in my life that would support my belief in God.
You must find your own
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

EP- You know as well as I do that if you know the Magic words and the Secret handshake the mysteries of Atlantis will be known to you
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Everything you know is because of your five senses as well.
So do we believe our five senses?
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


I said I had evidence in my life, but why should I share it with you. So you can belittle it and try to destroy my faith?
OK but this thread is about belief in the inspiration of the bible. That is a subject that is open to objective scrutiny.
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Everything you know is because of your five senses as well.

EP there are more than five senses. Isn't faith a sixth sense, or is it seventh? #*^%# where did I put that sixth one? I'm getting old, you know! Anyway, there are more than five. I don't know how many there are. I was kidding.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

Balance, temperature, pain. . .
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


So do we believe our five senses?
No not necessarily. We have to remember that the signals from our sense organs are interpreted by a brain that can be easily fooled. That is why the scientific method requires objective data.
 
poopsiecakes
poopsiecakes 4 years ago

I find it astonishing and intellectually irresponsible for people to be able to blithely dismiss all other myths and legends as such; for example: Thor, Zeus, Mithra, Horus, Merlin, Santa etc. - and yet go to extreme lengths to find a way to make the bible stories real somehow. The same powers of logic used to dismiss all these other stories is somehow blockaded when it comes to the bible. And yet some among these believers have managed to pick and choose which parts of the bible are real and which parts are allegory, all the while picking and choosing only those that prop up their need for faith, and discounting things in the very book that they get their faith from that makes them uncomfortable.
The fact that so many believers on this site have stated that they dislike religion is another prime example. It’s easy to look around now and see the flaws in current religions but if it hadn’t been for these religions in the first place, there would be no belief whatsoever. Mithra is no longer believed in as a god because the religion worshipping him as such died out. Same goes for every other belief system that had a religion and system of worship around that belief. You can compare the stories of Jesus to the stories of Mithra and Horus and find remarkable parallels but the Jesus believers will scoff and find holes in the comparisons. Why? Because they feel a NEED to believe and this is the fuel that fires their brand of logic. I understand it because I did it myself for so long but in my case, I wasn’t content to just stop the process to feed an imagined need.
Did the emperor Constantine really receive a divine vision at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge? His claim of this, that Christ appeared to him and assured him of victory, was what propped up Christianity and led to that religion being chosen over others of the time as the religion of state and the dissolution of other contemporary religions, including Mithraism. Those who believe in the bible as divinely inspired must also believe that Constantine was a divine vessel of sorts and that Christ was by his side in a decisive battle.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- Can't do that buddy, sorry, cop-outs not allowed. Either the face of Jesus on the Tortilla is real or its just a burn mark, either the vision of Mary is real or its not. We've had Evangelicals post videos of 'miracles' that are so bad in their obvious fakery but still the Believer believes. Benny Hinn is making a killing off the believers, is he for real or just a charlatan.
The big deal with Jesus is that he rose from the dead as a man and went to heaven, ok, where's the proof within our 5 senses.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

OK but this thread is about belief in the inspiration of the bible. That is a subject that is open to objective scrutiny.
and I said
It gives me hope. I've not seen a better deal being offered to me.
and how do you propose to objectively scrutinize whether the Bible is inspired?
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


how do you propose to objectively scrutinize whether the Bible is inspired?
By examining it like we would any other document.
When we do so we find historical inaccuracies and contradictions. We also find a complete lack of evidence of supernatural knowledge.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 4 years ago

I think the God that inspired the bible is a spaceman, an astronaut.
Probably a collective group of astronauts.
The astronauts would be a higher group of men to controll a lower group of men.

I suspect the astronauts genetically enginered the ape like creatures into somehting more like their, the astronauts
image.

I suspect the power of the universe, God, is not known to us and at this time unknowable to us.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- All religions offer some belief in an afterlife, the Happy place, that's there job. Genesis can be tested, is the heaven and earth 6000 years old as Genesis says or older.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

cop out, A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
is that what you mean I have a commitment or responsibility to provide you with my evidence,
and I'm not your buddy Designs.
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

I am pretty sure that the Watchtower never taught the Earth and Heaven are 6000 years old.
Don't they say "Adam"'s offspring are 6000 years ago and counting?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

cofty,
When we do so we find historical inaccuracies and contradictions. We also find a complete lack of evidence of supernatural knowledge.
I disagree.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

cop out - A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
 

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Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



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I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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cofty
cofty 4 years ago

I disagree. - Ucantnome
Ok but its not a matter of opinion whether or not the bible contradicts itself its an objective fact.
Have you looked in depth at the evidence? Do wish to discuss it?
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Well ok Non-buddy, I gave you one of several paranormal experiences I've had, and they are all open to scrutiny, I invite it. Seeing and hearing voices from the 'beyond' is something millions have experienced, does it prove the the New Testament true or is there another rational explaination.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cofty you dont think I faced a difficulty squarely or directly. I should have argued with you over whether the Bible has inconsistences or not. Maybe citing this source and that to end up with you still believeing it isn't and me believing it is.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Well ok Non-buddy, I gave you one of several paranormal experiences I've had, and they are all open to scrutiny, I invite it. Seeing and hearing voices from the 'beyond' is something millions have experienced, does it prove the the New Testament true or is there another rational explaination.
No I it doesnt prove the New Testament true hearing voices. I have a friend who hears them alot she is an atheist.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Designs I dont think you really thought of me as your buddy did you?
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- Just a suggestion, if your Faith is vital to you maybe this type of discussion isn't for you. This is hard ball time and former Believers have generally done their homework with archeology, astronomy etc to come to their conclusions about the Bible.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


Maybe citing this source and that to end up with you still believeing it isn't and me believing it is.
If you have read any of my more than 2000 posts you will know I never resort to citing sources I can't first explain in my own words.
We both know the bible very well, we can discuss whether or not it contradicts itself by reference to the bible alone if you wish?
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

If there is evidence, it is testable.
If there is not, it isn't.
You can have faith, I support that. Good for you. But don't pretend your realm of faith is at all related to science. It's not.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

Just a side point that could be helpful. . .
When I figured out that the WTS was full of shit, the first thing I said to myself was, "How do I really know what I know?"
I realized I had allowed myself to be pumped full of information about the bible, history, religion-- mostly from the WTS. Information control at its finest.
In the end, I found I knew a WHOLE LOT LESS than what I thought I knew. It wasn't a comforting feeling. It didn't even really engender a particularly "hopeful" feeling. But at least I was being honest with myself.
I think a good start in thinking critically about any aspect of life would be to read some David Hume. At the very worst, you get to read some thoughts from a really bright Scotsman who was way ahead of his time. No, I did not find hope or comfort in reading Hume, but it gives your brain a workout and provides some insight into how the human mind reifies abstract concepts and provides meaning to life. Hume will help you to really THINK like you never thought possible.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cofty I have to watch "Sherlock" and I will lose the argument I'm sure.
Thank you for the chat.
 
truth_b_known
truth_b_known 4 years ago

When you look at the history of how the book we know as The Bible came to be it raises some serious red flags. All of these "small books" were written by many different authors over a period of time. Then, centuries after all of these books and letters were written, a council of men sat down and came up with the cannon. So, some books were put into the Bible and other were purposely left out.
Were any of the books left out allegedly inspired?
Were any of the books put in not inspired?
Who knows?
Who cares?
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


Cofty I have to watch "Sherlock"
I'm with you on that. Best wishes.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Ucant - enjoy Sherlock - even though I thought it started at 9:00.
I would love you to present your evidence, you never know it may sway me towards believing again, and that is surely what Jesus would want.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Your right cantleave! it is 9:00 Still i had enough time to walk the dog.
And Designs your probably right. I think it's time I left the site. Nothing against anyone. I spend to much time reading on it.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


I think it's time I left the site. Nothing against anyone. I spend to much time reading on it.
I hope you come back. Be careful not to indulge in self-censorship, its important to be open to challenges to our beliefs.
I wish you well, enjoy Sherlock, I'm struggling to get into it but its well made.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

I thought last week's take on the Hound of the Baskervilles was superb!
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

I find it astonishing and intellectually irresponsible for people to be able to blithely dismiss all other myths and legends as such; for example: Thor, Zeus, Mithra, Horus, Merlin, Santa etc. - and yet go to extreme lengths to find a way to make the bible stories real somehow. The same powers of logic used to dismiss all these other stories is somehow blockaded when it comes to the bible. And yet some among these believers have managed to pick and choose which parts of the bible are real and which parts are allegory, all the while picking and choosing only those that prop up their need for faith, and discounting things in the very book that they get their faith from that makes them uncomfortable.
Hello, poopsie. I hope you don't put me in this category of extremism. I think all those myths you mentioned have much worth. However I lean towards the Bible because my upbringing required that I study it day and night and contemplate on it while I was asleep. I feel comfortable with it just as someone from Roman times would feel comfortable with Zues or in the renaissance, Merlin. Whatever truth there is in the Bible is not unique to it esepcially because it was not the first attempt to put truth into language.
-Sab
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

I got distracted with something. I will try to watch it again on IPlayer.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

I think it's time I left the site. Nothing against anyone. I spend to much time reading on it.
Maybe this is a cop out?
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Yes it is Ucant!
Stay and continue to challenge yourself and us heathens.
 

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Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



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I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

I believe that if it was actually inspired by an all-powerful God -
Then he would not have tried to trick us into thinking that humankind is only 6000 years old, or that ancient humans lived over 900 years.
Nor that he would have killed everybody but 9 people by flooding the entire earth by physically impossible means, nor that Jonah could live three days after being swallowed by a fish which of which there is no biological evidence, nor that ...
Well, in a word - NO.
It is ancient religious myth, valuable in that sense, but not inspired unquestionable truth.
 
arko_n9ne
arko_n9ne 4 years ago

the ancient assyrians practiced ashurism. ashur was their god who was feuding with the god of babylon. sounds familiar.
especially when you learn that ashurism evolved into the modern understanding of judaism.
the stories of the abrahamic bible are parallels to stories in ashurism. there is no originality in the old testament.
babylon was the antagonist pre semitic. babylon was the antagonist from moses forward. when babylon fell it remained the antagonist of the story in spiritual form.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cantleave and Cofty,
the first series of Sherlock I wasn't to keen on it. I prefered the one with Jeremy Brett. Sherlock was too updated. But like you say Cantleave last weeks was really good. (sorry to be off topic)
 
Mebaqqer2
Mebaqqer2 4 years ago

I don't believe the Bible for the same reasons I don't believe the Qur'an, Book of Mormon, Kojiki, Lotus Sutra, etc. Someone (cofty) already stated the point, but I will say it as well. Christians, like most religious believers, start with an idea that their belief is somehow sui generis so that any usual method of investigating its claims of truth is held to be inapplicable, unacceptable, or insufficient to Christianity. Look, for example, at perhaps the foremost Christian apologist William Lane Craig. He spends alot of time debating and writing books on how reason supports the truths of Christianity. However, in his book "Reasonable Faith," he lets the actual situation slip:
"May I suggest that, fundamentally, the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating witness of God's Holy Spirit? Now what do I mean by that? I mean that the experience of the Holy Spirit is veridical and unmistakable (though not necessarily irresistible or indubitable) for him who has it; that such a person does not need supplementary arguments or evidence in order to know and to know with confidence that he is in fact experiencing the Spirit of God; that such experience does not function in this case as a premise in any argument from religious experience to God, but rather is the immediate experiencing of God himself" -William Lane Craig, "Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics," rev. ed. (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994), 31, 32.
Thus for Craig the truth of Christianity is not established by any of the arguments he makes, but rather on some religious experience which he claims is "self-authenticating." One should already see the problem with this criterion for establishing truth since not being indubitable (thus dubitable, i.e. subject to doubt) necessarily means it cannot be "veridical and unmistakeable." Craig's self-authenticating religious experience stands in the same tradition as Rudolf Otto who likewise sought to ground the truth claims of Christianity in a claimed superior religious experience that ultimately falls outside any of the usual methods of empirical inquiry. In this way, Christians simply use reasonable sounding arguments to supplement their experience so as to given their religion a superfical air of reasonableness. In point of fact, however, Christians do not take reason to be the arbitor in examining the claims of their religion. Thus we are led back to Augustine's fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding) where reason only serves as the tool for so called revealed truths which are "known" through faith. This is all quite clear from Craig who himself states that "Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa" (Craig 36).
One should see another problem with the use of this criterion to establish truth in the fact that religions outside of Christianity likewise have "veridical and unmistakeable" religious experiences which Christians ironically will not accept as establishing the truth of the claims those religions make. Instead, the Christian takes those experiences as due to the influence of demons or psychological self deception. Thus the religious experiences of others are dismissed outright in preference to their own experience which actually should be taken as no more credible than any other. Thus essentially, Christianity is true because it says it is true.
This claimed unique status for Christianity naturally flows into all aspects of Christian apologetics making them disingeuous and unconvincing. To take the example of "proof from prophecy," Christians maintain that the Jewish Scriptures prophecy in great detail about Jesus numerous times giving convicing proof that Jesus is in fact the Messiah of God. Thus Matthew 2:15 shows that Jesus' move back from Egypt "fulfilled" the statement found in Hosea 11:1 where God declares "out of Egypt I called my son." Of course turning to Hosea 11 itself one does not find any prophecy concerning the Messiah, but rather a poetic passage recounting Israel's early history of God's callings them out from Egypt and their subsequent turning aside from God to worship Baal. The Christian will quickly respond that the passage has "dual meaning" or "prefigures" Jesus and so is in fact to be taken as a prophecy about Jesus. Thus the argument is ultimately that the passage is a prophecy because Christianity says it is a prophecy and it was fulfilled in Jesus because Christianity says it was. Of course the reasonable person sees in this instance that Christians have simply stacked the deck by fabricating a prophecy out of the words of Hosea in order to create proof for a preconceived claim of Jesus' Messiahship so that the said "prophecy" is completely unconvincing. The Christian of course will be content in sitting in their "self-authenticated" truth which is supplemented by self-proclaimed proof all while looking down on or pitying those not accepting Christian claims as hard-hearted and obstinate or ignorant at the very best.
The irony is that when it comes to other religious traditions' deployment of similar proofs, Christians suddenly become critical and subject those claims to reasonable inquiry. Take for example the Mormon claim that the book of Mormon is prophecied in Ezekiel 37:16, 17. Christians here will point out the overall context which makes it clear that Ezekiel is speaking of a reunification of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel so that the Mormon claim that this is a "prophecy" concerning the Book of Mormon simply can't be sustained. Mormons, however, already accept that Ezekiel is talking about the reunification of Judah and Israel but that this reunification is only viable due to the restoration of both sets of Scriptures, the Bible and the Book of Mormon, so that they claim Ezekiel has a deeper significance here. Is the Mormon appeal to some deeper significance for Ezekiel's words taken seriously by Christians? Absolutely not. The Christian here makes the reasonable conclusion that clear contextual indications are what should guide the understanding of the text and that Mormons are simply appealing to some claimed deeper meaning so as to manufacture proof to support their beliefs. One should remember too that the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is also said by Mormons to be guaranteed by a witness of the Holy Spirit, i.e. burning of the bosom, that they no doubt also take as "veridical and unmistakeable" but which Christians reject out of hand. Incidently, the Mormons for their part will simply decide that the witness of the Holy Spirit to the veracity of the Book of Mormon takes precedence over any of the counter arguments Christians might throw at them due to the same reliance on their religious experience that Craig makes clear for his own views. In this way, both sides end up talking at each other with each not listening to the other seriously for ironically the very same reason. Examples of such double standards as these show clearly how Christian apologetics are simply a charade which attempt to cloth the claims of Christianity, actually accepted on the basis of a religious experience, with an air of reason by arming itself with "proofs" that are expected to convince others which are actually formulated on bases that even the Christian apologists would not accept unless it serves to support their own position.
This brings us back to why I do not believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant word of God. Well the answer is quite simple. Unlike the Christian who finds a subjective religious experience supplemented by forms of argument which would not be taken seriously from others to attest to the truth of Christian claims, I simply apply the same standards to all religious claims and texts equally. Thus I examine the Bible using the same critical methodology I would to any other text of antiquity. That is not to disclude the possibly that the Bible could in theory be demonstrated to be the inspired, inerrant word of God, but that I have yet to see any evidence of this that could not be explained in a more reasonable way or could not be claimed for some other text. Christian claims of the Bible's uniqueness are only based on preconceived ideas that it is unique. In a sense, the Bible is indeed unique, but only in the sense that any text is unique. Of course Christians are arguing that the Bible is unque par excellence as is the Christian religion. It is certainly true that Christianity is unique in its claims, but this this does not translate into its being true. Buddhism is also unique in its claims which likewise does not make it true. Similarly the Bible is unique, but this does not translate into its being true any more than the uniqueness of the Lotus Sutra does. Arguments in support of the Bible's claimed uniquely unique status, such as prophecies, non-contradition, scientific knowledge, etc., all ultimately rest on assuming the Bible to be sui generis from the start and using a double standard of witholding it from the normal procedure of subjecting it to objective, rational inquiry. Thus, my not beliving in the Bible as the inspired, inerrant word of God is not because I am hard-headed, obstinate, or ignorant any more than the Christian is hard-headed, obstinate, or ignorant for dismissing Mormon claims for the Book of Mormon. Rather, I simply employ the same methodology that a Christian would to all texts equality and don't "play favorites" in the pursuit of truth.
-Mebaqqer
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

(sorry to be off topic)
OK, but don't let it happen again.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

I do not believe the Bible is inspired of God, if it was He would have made it, as Cantleave says, self-authenticating in some way, a fact or two that the writers could not have known at the time they wrote, and,almost the same thing, a prediction that came 100% true.
I am familiar with all the pro-inspiration for the Bible arguments, they do not stand scrutiny.
I do not wish to throw out the baby with the bathwater as the old saying goes, so I recognise there may be instuction, comfort, and even wisdom to be found in the Bible, but it is still the work of men, men of limited knowledge because of their time and their circumstances.
To claim anything more than that for it is to ignore all the evidence, if your faith demands that you ignore all the evidence, is it a faith worth having ?
SHERLOCK REALLY IS ON NOW, must go !
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

there is no originality in the old testament.
Well lets give the ideas back to the people who they stole them from and be done with it! LOL! The lack of originality just makes it all the more facinating and places it's age as possibly much older than previously thought. Sure the Genesis Document has a distinguishable age, but how far back does the line of plagiarizers go? If that could be reasonably ascertained that would give Genesis it's true ideaological date which of course would be incredibly ancient. This begs the question to me, where did these ancient humans get all this information about culture, the universe and the world around them?
-Sab
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

That the bible is sui generis comes from it's ability to (verb meaning) to cover like a blanket all other religions.
I believe there is a hunger in some people to realize life is better than "eating and drinking". People that crave intellectual stimulation but are not in the class for it need the Bible. Other religions mimic or reflect the world as it is. The Bible extends the possibility of something better. It is written (it is being written) as a response to that hunger. It is a letter written to all persuasions, and all ages for all ages (as in generations).
It leads to the God that does make things happen FOR GOOD.
Spiritual things are exceedingly difficult to write in human terms.
 
poopsiecakes
poopsiecakes 4 years ago

Hello, poopsie. I hope you don't put me in this category of extremism. I think all those myths you mentioned have much worth. However I lean towards the Bible because my upbringing required that I study it day and night and contemplate on it while I was asleep. I feel comfortable with it just as someone from Roman times would feel comfortable with Zues or in the renaissance, Merlin. Whatever truth there is in the Bible is not unique to it esepcially because it was not the first attempt to put truth into language.
Hi Sab :smile:
You've stated in exact words why you are so desperate to believe in the bible. You've been indoctrinated from the time you were a child. I know that you're on a journey and starting to learn what it is to think for yourself which is awesome to watch, however your posts of late have come to reflect that you are more than willing to put aside 'fact' in your search of 'truth'. I think it's something everyone goes through and some stop when they reach the threshold of their comfort level and some push through that and no matter how uncomfortable it gets, continue in the pursuit of 'fact'. It's always a pretty thought to believe that something is out there watching over us, but as you've stated, the bible is not the first attempt to make sense of this thought. Why revere those writings over other attempts? Is it because of Constantine and his vision? It's his vision that pushed forward the notion that Christianity is the number one belief, after all and went on to provide us with the bible canon as we know it.
Morality tales, whether to be found in the Bible, Shakespeare, Milton or Grimm have a worth to us as a culture but they really need to be seen for what they are...tales.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

That the bible is sui generis comes from it's ability to (verb meaning) to cover like a blanket all other religions.
How does it cover Zen Buddhism like a blanket?
Spiritual things are exceedingly difficult to write in human terms.
That is the reason for the Zen Koan - the teaching riddle story leading to enlightenment.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

N.D. Spiritual things should not be difficult to write about or speak about unless they lack some basics in proof or verification. What you see and hear and smell while on an induced level of prayer or meditation or induced by chemicals like LSD or magic mushrooms and peyote while fantastical can be described with some effort. A christian knows they have been communicated to by Jesus, and a Muslim knows they have been communicated to by Allah and a Hindu knows and a Buddhist knows and a Shaman knows.....
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Can you handle a bit logic? (say that to self in an Irish brogue accent)
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
"this generation" means "mine" doesn't it?
He was saying the hungry ones can have no fear of passing away because all things WILL take place.
"This" is a pronoun meaning the sheep of (all) the generations who have put faith in the promise of him.
afterward* (3), especially (1), fact (2), follow* (1), here* (1), hereafter* (1), man (1), now* (1), one (2), one whom (1), partly* (1), person (1), present (1), same (1), so (1), so then* (1), so* (1), some (2), such (2), therefore* (16), these (179), these...things (1), these men (10), these people (1), these things (192), this (737), this man (56), this man's (2), this one (4), this reason* (1), this thing (2), this way (1), this woman (4), this* (1), this...thing (1), those (2), those things (1), very (3), very thing (2), who (2), whom (1).
In other words the scripture means " believe and you will know these things to take place"
He was talking about his generation. Not time. His generation extends to whenever people believe.
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Spiritual things should not be difficult to write about or speak about unless they lack some basics in proof or verification
No. There are concepts that do not have a word to define them.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Never trust a guy who is willing to throw his family under the bus, my summation of Jesus.
I had a college professor, a practicing psychologist, who could pierce himself like some Hindu practitioners do and start and stop the flow of blood with mind control. Remember when as JWs, and I suppose not a few christian faiths, would call that demonism but its just a learned trick of the mind. Yesterdays gods and demons and holy men are todays common practitioners and scientists.
 
watersprout
watersprout 4 years ago

Right my views are.... I dislike the bible immensely, it was written by scribes who mistranslated the original scrolls to fit what they wanted it to say. There is inspired scripture, apart from thsoe books I ignore the rest.
To be honest does it really matter whether you believe in it or not?? I believe what I want and I don't give a fiddle sticks to anyone else!
Peace
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

How does it cover Zen Buddhism like a blanket?
Is time a factor in/of/with lala I'm so confused!! ?
Is the understanding and profound respect for pronouns singular/plurals verb tense ect (there might be more) an element of Zen?
Zen is probably the way to human enlightenment. Christ is the way to divine enlightenment. The lesser is blessed by the greater. Voila! A blanket.
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

So then one does not leave their religion to find the true one. The true one always exists. While one is attaining enlightenment one is being transformed. If the person being transformed is stubborn the transformation will stop. If the person will allow the transformation the person will not remain in dead works.
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Why not compare the religion of the Jews to the language of the Hebrews? The day someone understands the language with the dedication is the day the things of time might be understood.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Zen is the way to an overarching elightenment that marries the divine with the human. Voila! Zen is superior and cover Jesus like blanket!
Wow, this game is easy!
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

t's always a pretty thought to believe that something is out there watching over us, but as you've stated, the bible is not the first attempt to make sense of this thought. Why revere those writings over other attempts? Is it because of Constantine and his vision?
Constantine had no connection with Genesis, especially chapter 1, he merely used it for his own purposes. Was HIS purpose part of a larger purpose? I do have faith in that. I think what they put together changed the world, much like 9/11 did which is ultimately for the better but at unthinkable cost. I wrote a post that I feel describes my feelings about the Bible. I do not give special credence to the Constantine, but the message I believe they were comissioned to keep alive. I fear you have misread my words the past few months.
-Sab
 

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Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



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What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
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by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



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Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


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