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Another Galling WT Study
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 3 days ago 25 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 3 days ago

January 2016 Watchtower (Study Edition)
Be Determined to “Let Your Brotherly Love Continue”!


This article was easy to read. Lot's of good counsel from the scriptures cited. However, in the context of my experience of the WTBTS/IBSA here in Britain, it was remote from my experience. I sailed on until it came to paragraph 18.
18. How can we strengthen our brotherly love for our elders? 18 “Remember those who are taking the lead.” (Read Hebrews 13:7, 17.) When we think about the hard work that our elders do for us—all without financial reward—our brotherly love and feelings of appreciation for them are strengthened. Never would we want them to lose their joy or to sigh because of something we do. Rather, by our obedience and submission, we “give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.”—1 Thess. 5:13.

For me, this paragraph engendered considerable pique. I accept that in my congregation the BoE do "hard work" and "without financial reward". However, their efforts do not engender the "brotherly love and feelings of appreciation" which the authors of this article hope for. Rather, my local BoE's behavoural profile is kindred to that of the Saudi Muttawa. They have - on more than a few occasions - exempted themselves from the counsel of 1 Thess 4:11 (lead a quiet life and mind your own business) and 1 Peter 4:15 (don't be a busybody in other peoples' affairs). So much so that several (including seniors) have experienced a range of emotions from outrage to distress. That this particular BoE feel enabled to arrogate such a role reveals (among other things) the environment in which their minds are exposed to (hardly one which exemplifies the mind of Christ). Two members of my local BoE are especially problematic.
One is the CBoE. He treats the congregation as his own personal property and play thing, and reacts with apoplexy to any perceived divergent viewpoint or perceived challenge. A very insecure individual who is also quite insitutionalised. He makes copious use of the "Organisation" book and his "Shepherding the Flock" book, and minimal use of scripture. He proscribes males from any platform assignments if they are not wearing a suit He ensures that any brothers naive enough to want to reach out understand that in doing so, they must please him and therefore become followers of men. They will wait for a painfully long time before gaining their appointment!
The other of the two is a sociopath (formerly referred to as psychopath). This is not a pejorative but seriously and carefully chosen vocabulary. He is "a cold fish" as one senior social worker said of a risky client several years ago. That is, lacking in feeling for others, lacking in empathy, fails to learn from experience and thus repeats mal-experiences. In a manner of speaking he is socially handicapped, and any compassion I had for him quickly evaporates when I learn of the hurt and tears of others in the wake of this brute's invasiveness. His behavioural profile goes back to the formative years of his adolescence. His brother is a charming fellow who is innocuous and widely liked. This psychopath's behavioural profile in the congregation is such that I have had to give advice to several (sisters) in how to cope with him. The advice is as follows from (Psych Central) ....
◦Be on your guard at all times. Know what you can and cannot expect from the sociopath.
◦Avoid going to this person for emotional support or advice. Being vulnerable in this way opens you up to being hurt.
◦Imagine a boundary between yourself and the sociopath. Form a picture of it in your mind. Build a wall that you can see in your imagination that protects you. Everything the sociopath says or that is hurtful bounces off this imaginary wall.
◦Don’t make excuses for the sociopath. Instead, hold him accountable for his actions. The stronger and more direct you are, the less the sociopath will try to take advantage of you.
However, getting back to the Watchtower study. I made up my mind that I just could not sit there and listen to this. So just before the paragraph was read, I vacated the auditorium and went outside. Just couldn't bear to hear the reading or the sycophantic responses.
There were additional difficulties for me at this Watchtower study however. The concluding song was so objectionable. The song states among other things....◦"Our meetings refresh us and brighten our hope" (Not my experience I'm afraid)
◦"Wholesome instruction from God fearing men" (No - not that either)
◦"Our meetings instuct us in ways that are right" (Nope!)
In any case, I feel uncomfortable singing a song which extolls WT meetings or meetings of any kind. So during the concluding song, I just put my songbook away in my bag and stood there silent. Some noticed. But I'm past caring anymore!
I've noticed the gradual changes which I see in myself in response to the growing ingress of the GBoJW into the congregations. I am repelled and no longer regard myself as a Jehovah's Witness. I continue to strive to be a Christian.
Winston Churchill put it rather well when he wrote...."Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." It is perhas the end of the beginning of my being solely mentally out of this organisation. My stepping out during a paragraph and abstention from a song is perhaps, the beginning of another type of egress!
 +24 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 3 days ago
Well said, NK, if you do not support sociopathic behavior, they will not have the power.... and who wants their life ruled by egotistical people?
 +1 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 3 days ago
The counsel given is for the sheep to obey & submit to the elders & to give them extrodinary consideration. What about the other way around? Shouldn't there also be counsel for the elders to treat the sheep with extrodinary love, kindness, & care?? There is always an imbalance in counsel given. The sheep get counselled but the elders are spared from counsel. No wonder the elders are always such a pain to deal with!
 +7 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

So let me get this straight, if we (the flock) do as we are told, we make them (the elders) happy and not sad....?
So that is twisted reasoning. It is sort of like putting the blame on a victim. Oh"they made me mad" so I acted in a wrong way.....
 +5 / -0
label licker
label licker 3 days ago

And if I was to go along with the elders in Elmira, On congregation, I would have been an accessory to letting a guy who was just reinstated after approx fifteen years disfellowshipping
while still smoking be allowed to get drunk and smash his wife's lincoln in by hand, he threatened to blow off his wife's face with a loaded hand gun (His father told us that one), had his high school employee forge his wife's name on a legal document, threatened to shoot and kill his father and fooled around on his wife. Yes, that certainly is showing brotherly affection for our elders, isn't it???
All in the name of JW.Org while hiding behind god.
 +2 / -1
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 3 days ago

"Brotherly Love".. The verse is the yeartext for 2016, written on the wall of the KHall.
Will it permeate the cong? I doubt it. NB. It is not the r & f bros. they are o k , I agree with Nicolaus that in my experience of several cons, it is the elders that are lacking.
Like the O/P, I can never sing the songs..they stick in my throat . Singing those hypocritical words would be like singing the North Korean national anthem, only worse!
I too, stand there mute. The speakers must see, but say nothing to me.
 +3 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 days ago

This is pretty easy to dodge, in my opinion. The key would be standing your ground and not getting angry or appearing rebellious. The Elders are really powerless and many of them know it. Many don't want to be hatchet men, they just go with the flow of the BOE. This is my suggestion as to dealing with the A-hole Eldubs:
A-Hole: "Blah, blah, blah.....and so DD, we need to be obedient and submissive."
DD: "Who wrote that?"
A-Hole: "The apostle Paul wrote it."
DD: "Why?"
A-Hole: "Some were not responding to council."
DD: "Council from whom? Paul?"
A-Hole: " Well, yes. Paul was telling them God's will for them."
DD: "Kinda like when he said to remain single, but it was his idea."
A-Hole: " ......... "
( This next part is really important. DO NOT stop speaking until you have covered all the points. DO NOT pause or allow for interruptions. The Eldub's brain must be overloaded. Remember, dubs don't reason beyond a basic level and they are conditioned to stop reasoning when it becomes a challenge. This may seem like a long speech, but it's not. It is, however, long enough to make an Eldub uncomfortable. They expect immediate compliance and regurgitated responses. )
DD: " I'm sure you would agree that "taking the lead" involves setting an example as a mature Christian? A mature Christian sets a proper example and merits imitation. That's why we are reminded as Christians to observe the course of other Christians and then, as we see how their conduct produces fruitage, we imitate their faith. We don't imitate those who set an improper example, because that is not an example worth imitating.
Furthermore, mature Christians do not make rules for others, or go beyond the things written. Paul admitted that he felt that Christians should remain single in view of the times, but he admitted that was his idea. He certainly didn't expect everyone to be obedient and submissive by never marrying. Can you imagine Paul approaching a couple who recently married and calling them out, like he did with Peter for showing favoritism? No, you can't.
So you see, the real issue for Christians is this: Where is the council coming from? Is a brother telling you to wear only white dress shirts, or is he reminding you to pay Caesar's things to Caesar? We have to obey our Father as ruler, rather than men. If any Elder here or anywhere in the world suggests that we obey men, instead of our Father, we have to draw a line in the sand, so to speak. So, when Brother Mc Boss told me that I had to stop eating lunch with my DF'd family member, he was enforcing his opinion, not reminding me of God's will, because you and I both know what the Flock book actually says. As a "Duke" and a "Star", what are you going to do about this?"
A-Hole: " ....... "
I wouldn't even bother with any of this, unless it was really serious. Most little things blow over. The Eldubs don't even bother me at all. Of course I am still "in" for family reasons. Also, when they do take the time to ask me something, or I comment at the meetings, I say something similar to the above. When they realize that you know more than they do, and reason more than they do, most of the Eldubs avoid you. They have their own problems after all, they don't want anymore. Sure, occasionally some newbie Eldub has something to prove, but they are becoming scarce in my area. Perhaps "qualified" men are not reaching out? Those that are "all in" and young, are not that bright. A few attempt to be like Peter and not let anyone look down on their youth, but a speech like the above lets them know who they are dealing with and they are happy to never engage you again.
You could always go with the short version of the above speech, depending on your circumstances.
A-Hole: "Ahhh.. Brother DD, could we..."
DD: "NO."
DD 😇
 +3 / -0
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 3 days ago

18. How can we strengthen our brotherly love for our elders? 18 “Remember those who are taking the lead.” (Read Hebrews 13:7, 17.) When we think about the hard work that our elders do for us—all without financial reward—our brotherly love and feelings of appreciation for them are strengthened. Never would we want them to lose their joy or to sigh because of something we do. Rather, by our obedience and submission, we “give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.”—1 Thess. 5:13.
I never was a JW, so take this comment for what it's worth.
Even discounting the 'jwspeak' language used (which frequently jars with me and - I'm sure - a lot of 'normal' people) this reads like something you might expect to find in a North Korea press release exhorting the populace not to grumble about rations being reduced again. Shades of '1984'.
My personal experience of elders is limited to two men who admitted to being such in (separate) visits to my door. They were, to be honest, less than impressive - not just because they didn't display much engagement, joy, charisma, etc., but because they weren't very good at doing what they were there for, i.e. selling the org. I can't imagine that many people they spoke to were tempted 'in' by their demeanour.
I watched the ARC proceedings. Apart from the evidence obtained, I found watching the jw hierarchy in action very telling. Here on display were all the 'ranks' from local elders through to GB. It was a fairly pitiful display, I thought. If I came across someone tempted to join the jws, I'd recommend they watch the ARC videos and ask the question 'Are you sure that these are the sort of people to whom you want to submit many aspects of your life?'.
(As a side comment: the ARC sessions reminded me a great deal of my time as a cop, especially on the Fraud Squad, interviewing suspects - and later watching them giving evidence in court disastrously trying to defend or explain their actions. It rarely ended well for them.)

 +6 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 days ago

I hate dub-speak. Sadly, to break through the cult persona, you have to use their own speech patterns to set them up for some cognitive dissonance.
You may wake them up, or they may avoid you for the rest of your life. I prefer the former, but will accept being avoided.
DD
 +3 / -0
WTWizard
WTWizard 3 days ago

I find some of the purges to be quite extreme. It's one thing to get rid of something that blatantly contradicts your beliefs. It's another to get rid of everything that does not blatantly identify you as a follower of Jesus. First, does that mean that all shorts, even the Bermuda shorts, are taboo? What about jeans? Sneakers? Short sleeve shirts, particularly non-dress shirts? Remember, back in that day, the dress code was a robe, with fringes. Do we see that these days?
Another thing is about media. Music and movies have to entertain Jesus? What if that thing would rather not listen to a song or watch a particular movie for no good reason? And there is the issue of video games. Try explaining why you are entertained by playing these things to a god that wants children's ice cream money. You spent that money on a video game? Most games cost between 10 and 60 toilet papers (US toilet papers), depending on the system. Common Pokemon games cost around 35 (for the Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, and Heart Gold/Soul Silver) to 40 (for the 3DS). Now, how are you going to explain spending that money on a game, not to mention the money you spent on the system, when children are supposed to throw away their ice cream money?
The whole article is a curse. You start throwing away everything that means anything to you, you tie in with the video where Caleb throws away the Sparlock toys for barely tying in with magic. You also tie in with Sophia not being able to have an ice cream cone. Which can tie in with every other family with a Caleb and/or a Sophia (including classrooms, to boot). Do you wish to damn such a wide number of innocent people by throwing away things because some fictitious being might not be particularly interested in it or because you need to throw away the money into the Worldwide Damnation Fund?

 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago
From what I've heard, "brotherly love" is often taken in interesting directions at Bethel. :smirk:
 +3 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 3 days ago
Kicking elderly ones outta bethel , after many, many years of service to the watchtower......was NOT showing brotherly love. Them gb lames should practice what they preach!!
 +5 / -0
Tricked
Tricked 3 days ago

Quite often, there would be studies and articles about "respecting those taking the lead" which I never felt applied to me. By their own standards, these Elders were meant to be loving and interested. Never did I receive a "Shepherding Visit" (thankfully) and more often than not, not even a "hello" at the KH or in field service.
I'm not sure if they felt I was doing ok as I never missed meetings and did around 35 hours ministry every month. Now that I haven't been to meetings or service in nearly 4 months, I'm slightly offended that I was indeed truly invisible. No-one has even chased up a report from me, which makes me wonder if any of the slips I previously posted in the service box were actually counted or looked at. The last few months I was in, I was always sitting at back of hall and first to leave after the prayer so maybe they realised I wasn't worth their efforts.
 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos 3 days ago
 Joe Grundy. "-- hard work that our elders do for us, -"-? actually the work they do for the WTBtS. Inc. and it's affiliates. 
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 3 days ago

The obedient sheep lies down before the shepherd ready to be sacrifiiced because that sheep knows to disobey is futile.
And whilst on to the sheep/shepherd metaphor, even a "good" shepherd has to lead his sheep to the slaughter from time to time other wise how does he make a decent living?
 +3 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago

When we think about the hard work that our elders do for us
I'll go ahead and object to this premise. In the past, it may have been hard. Today, its just time consuming. As long as you are wiling to shove your family into the back seat and give a lot of your time to the cause of the WTS then you are elder material.
That's exactly why so many elders resign eventually, and the smart ones coming up in the ranks don't "reach out" for the silliness of being an elder. Its a title with the privilege of getting the scoop on all of the dirty laundry in the congo. Certainly nothing of great value deserving extra respect from the troops, and many are recognizing that and refusing to bow down and kissing the rings of the elders.
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 days ago

Hey Elders, guess what?
1) Luke 17:10, that's what!! You are a good for nothing slave! Do your duty and stop bitching! Do want a medal for doing your job?!?! Do you need constant validation that you make sacrifices? Newsflash chucklenuts, we all make sacrifices.
2) Luke 17:2!!! Your being an Eldub, even if Jehhibbityhop appointed you, does not absolve you of responsibility for offending the sheep! You are more accountable, not less! It would be better for you to be tossed into the sea with a millstone on your neck, than to stumble a sheep by your bad example!
Why don't you tell Jesus to STFU and not get so upset when you screw someone over by your Pharisaic behavior? This goes DOUBLE for the GB and their lying legal team!
DD
 +4 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago

@ steve2...
Yup.
Shepherds, wolves... either way, the sheep gets eaten.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

When the flock need to be reminded to show "respect" to the elders, it usually means that such respect was not naturally forthcoming!
Why?
 +5 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 3 days ago

"Never would we want them to lose their joy or to sigh because of something we do. Rather, by our obedience and submission, we “give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.”—1 Thess. 5:13."
How about when the shoe is one the other foot? Do the Elders ever consider when they make the rank and file loose their joy or sigh? My past experience with some Elders has been they could not give a rats ass if they cause you any pain or sorrow. When I see the love return to the JW religion, then I MAY have some respect for these "Men". Respect is earned not given freely.
What we have experienced over the past year or two with an Elder (COBE) is disturbing to say the least. I will give respect where it is due and when it is earned.
 
 +2 / -0

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Another Galling WT Study
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 3 days ago 25 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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flipper
flipper 3 days ago

I like this quote about the elders- this is pretty funny- " Never would we want them ( the elders ) to lose their joy or to sigh because of something we do. " Yeah, right.
How about this quote being re-written more accurately, " Never would we want the brothers or sisters to lose their joy or to sigh because of something the ELDERS do. "
I think that's a tad more accurate. Give me a break. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 +6 / -0
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 3 days ago


18. How can we strengthen our brotherly love for our elders? 18 “Remember those who are taking the lead.” (Read Hebrews 13:7, 17.) When we think about the hard work that our elders do for us—all without financial reward—our brotherly love and feelings of appreciation for them are strengthened. Never would we want them to lose their joy or to sigh because of something we do. Rather, by our obedience and submission, we “give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.”—1 Thess. 5:13
JW:  So GB brothers, I see that you would not want the elders to lose joy or sigh because of something you do. Is that correct?
GB:  Well, yes.
JW:  So then, if the elders lose joy and sigh because of something you do, does that mean you are going to stop doing it?
GB:  No! No! Not at all!
JW:  Could you explain that answer please?
GB:  Well, we are not going to change what we do. It's just that we don't want the elders to lose joy and sigh because of what we do. It's very simple. If the elders lose joy and sigh, they will have to examine themselves and make whatever corrections are necessary so as not to lose joy and sigh. An adjustment in their thinking may be necessary. In fact, an adjustment in the thinking of all JW's is necessary at times. Except ours, of course.




 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 2 days ago
Listen, Obey and be Blessed.
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 days ago

STFU and be stressed.
DD
 +2 / -0
Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 days ago
Just had another (disappointing) thought concerning this magazine. Whilst it is the first 2016 edition, yet the pseudo sages of the writing committee have not wasted any time in getting their oar in re Heb. 13:17. They're frequent use of it is becoming frightfully boring. The writing committee is perhaps experiencing a lack of resilience, versatility, imagination. Time the Heb 13:17 dripping tap was tended to! So repetitive!
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 2 days ago
It seems like something is lacking in stimulation too.
 

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Topic Summary
january 2016 watchtower (study edition).
be determined to “let your brotherly love continue”!.
this article was easy to read.



Related Topics
Simon Templar
Too Much Discontent in the Congregation Part 3
by Simon Templar 4 months ago
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by Dunedain 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-11-2015 WT Study (EXPECTATION)
by blondie 5 months ago
mrsObfuscate
The story of my exit
by mrsObfuscate 2 months ago
EndofMysteries
One of the biggest complete 180 contradictions in the SAME ARTICLE, in the 9/15 study wt "Is your conscience a reliable guide?".
by EndofMysteries 4 months ago



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MAYBE GOD DID MAKE "Adam and Steve" after all!
by Terry 3 days ago 7 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower scandals
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Terry
Terry 3 days ago

HERE IS THE BOX containing what we think we know:
Thinking outside the box.PNG
LET’S THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX
______________________________________________

1.GOD IS INVISIBLE but he made man in his “Image.” What does an invisible image look like?

2.Man was made from (depending on translation) dust, clay, or mud. Logically, the 1st human was mud in the invisible image of God.

3.All humans have 46 chromosomes but sex is determined by only 2 of them X and Y.

4.Males have one X and one Y. Females have 2 X’s.

5.Eve was constructed from Adam’s DNA (using his rib)

6.Eve had to be a clone of Adam. If God duplicated Adam’s X chromosome to make 2 X’s Even would be Female, but still related in every way to Adam. Why?

7.She would share the other 44 chromosomes with him. This would make her a Fraternal Twin.

ADAM married his sister!
OR
ADAM married his clone.
But wait!
Where in the Bible do we find the “wedding ceremony” of Adam and Eve?
Eve is called his “wife” but in what sense could a brother and sister marry and not produce idiots for children?
FUNDAMENTALISTS say: “God made Adam and Eve--not Adam and STEVE.”
However, we know that any sample of DNA from a person is specific to that person and does not change. That fact is helping to solve crimes, establish paternity and are getting people released from death row. Since the source material came from a dude, Adam, then the sample would be an exact genetic match for Adam.
Gulp!
That means that God did make Adam and STEVE!

 +3 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 3 days ago

Good OP.
Just shows how ignorant bible writers were of human sex chromosomes.
FUNDAMENTALISTS say: “God made Adam and Eve--not Adam and STEVE.” - lol, yes, I've heard a brother say that verbatim.
I wonder how many fingers Cain & Abel had ... or if their fingers were webbed. 


 
 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 2 days ago

''FUNDAMENTALISTS say: “God made Adam and Eve--not Adam and STEVE.”
LOL, I've heard that before too, lol


 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago
AD HOC arguments by fundamentalists crack me up
 
Conanthebeliever
Conanthebeliever 2 days ago

This is actual real food for thought, I like this.
You are correct, it would be a clone of Adam, if it was XX chromosomes to make a female, that would basically be the literal version of Adam, but female-even closer than brother and sister.
I have also heard the "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" quite a lot, and I am in the UK!
I have only been here for 2 days, but I like it here. It is a lot different to what I imagined.
Lots of thought provoking topics.
All the best, Conan.
 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

Around 1973 I worked as an employment counselor in an Employment agency. The fellow who hired me had been a professional magician. We became casual friends and he gradually opened up to me. After a bit, he would talk to me about MAGIC tricks and the real reasons why they worked.
"Enough people have betrayed the Magic community over the centuries that there is really no logical or rational reason for the profession to exist any longer."
I asked what he meant.
"Magic really comes down to three things. 1. Being in the wrong spot when the "magic" happens 2. Wanting to be fooled 3. Laziness or unwillingness to discover the secret."
I thought about that for several days and the next time we got together I asked more probing questions.
"What do you mean when you say the audience is in the wrong spot?"
He smiled and excused himself while he went to the bathroom. When he returned, he had me repeat the question.
"Okay, you are sitting in front of me. I'm showing you my empty hand. Now watch. . . ." He flicked his open hand and a business card suddenly appeared! I laughed but resisted asking the question all magicians hate.
He waited for it anyway, but I sat with my lips firmly shut.
He continued. "When I showed you my open hand what did you see?"
"Only your empty palm."
He grinned sarcastically. "What was behind my hand?"
"What do you mean?"
"You couldn't see behind my hand because you were in front of it. That's where I was hiding the card." He slowly turned his open, empty hand over and sure enough--the business card was slightly wedged by its small end between his fingers. You couldn't see from the front. The card was curved under tension like a spring. All he had to do was open his finger slightly and it "popped" as he flipped his hand. "Presto!"
I felt silly and it was slightly disappointing how obvious that trick was.
I told him so. He nodded.
"That's what makes magic work. You can't ever see what you are not allowed to see. You are kept in the wrong spot--misdirected--and you miss the gag behind the production of the hidden card."
The more I've thought about Magic over the years I definitely see the hard link between such obvious subterfuge as a profession and the game played by religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses.
The trick which makes the Governing Body believable is how they produce all that "food at the proper time" OUT OF NOWHERE. We are standing in the wrong place, in the board room where Ray Franz sat. We want to believe in their Magic (channeling truth from Jehovah's throne.)
The research necessary to learn their tricks is right there on the Internet, but we trust the Magic is real and we're afraid of Apostate "reveals."
Of course, once you learn the truth about the truth (how the trick is done) it is disappointing and obvious. They are reaching into their ass and pulling out their "Truth."



 
deegee
deegee 2 days ago
Eve, a clone of Adam...........more proof that the Adam & Eve story in the Bible is based on mythology?
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

The WTS would of course just say well Adam didn't have any homosexual genetics while being perfect in the garden, it was after when he and Eve were thrown out that mankind inherently acquired all these malformed genetics due to failing sin.

Scientific knowledge has no supportive relevance toward structured beliefs. rather they are expressive ideas from Satan himself to oppose spiritual knowledge of god and of man. 

 

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Got my memorial invite yesterday...
by OneEyedJoe 3 days ago 13 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 3 days ago
I wasn't sure how this would be handled since the elders haven't harassed me as much as a lot of others have gotten, plus we live a ways outside of the territory so I figured there was a shot they'd leave me alone since it's inconvenient. Guess not. Two elders showed up unannounced toward the end of their recruiting shift. It was definitely well planned, because it's the only two elders that I actually sorta liked, and they're not in the same service group. Anyway, there were a few points that came out of the ensuing conversation that I thought were worth noting.
Their appeal to me to try to get me to come to memorial was purely personal - no mention of its importance, no mention of god's forgiveness (since I'm sure they assume I'm guilty of some secret sin) nothing more than "I know I would sure love to see you there" said in a few different (and seemingly sincere) ways. How hollow this cult is. In the end it really does boil down to doing crap you don't want to do to please people that have to be given an assignment to seek you out for a conversation.
The other fun point was their first attempt to sell returning to meetings after I told them I wasn't going to be at memorial. "We have a new format now." Seriously? Do they think I'm not there because of the meeting format? He went on to explain with clearly false enthusiasm that "now there's a chairman for the whole program! It's like a convention!" It was really difficult to hold in a sarcastic "holy shit, I'll be at the next meeting now!" But no he continued on explaining that now it's much easier for my father-in-law (former school overseer) and in a moment of unscripted honesty said "I think he's actually the only one that likes the new format."
So there you have it. The best reason they could come up with to convince me to come to memorial was to make them happy. Next best reason to be at meetings is they've changed the talks slightly, and no one likes it. How will I ever live with myself if I don't make it?
 +20 / -0
TheMark
TheMark 3 days ago
same old garbage in a brand new package comes to mind
 +5 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

Looking forward to my visit, I just hope it isn't some sweet old lady, 'coz I really want to tell 'em what i know.
We shall see. One phrase that keeps coming to my mind for use is :
" The reason I shall not be coming is because.... IT IS NOT THE TRUTH ! "
 +7 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago
SSDD
 +3 / -0
naazira
naazira 3 days ago

It was really difficult to hold in a sarcastic "holy shit, I'll be at the next meeting now

Hahaha.




 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

"We have a new format now." Seriously? Do they think I'm not there because of the meeting format?
Yes Jah has approved video monitors up on the stage so you see and heard big brother GB member give a talk from Bethel Head Quarters.
JWS are not the most intelligent human beings, in a mater of fact they assume arrogance for being knowledgeable and truthful where the rest of humanity in the darkness of Satan's system of things.

 +4 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

Something new and shiny to keep everyone interested.....
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5674395020296192/look-something-new-shiny

 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 3 days ago

" The reason I shall not be coming is because.... IT IS NOT THE TRUTH ! "
Yeah I was ready to go with that, actually, but they never asked why I wasn't at meetings or why I wasn't planning on making the memorial. The impression I got is that they don't care. They're just doing their duty and trying to pressure people to build up the attendance numbers. In fact, I think they specifically don't want to know why I'm not around anymore.
 +4 / -0
Poztate
Poztate 2 days ago

OneEyedJoe
Did they offer you a copy of the Return To Jehovah magazine ? That was supposed to be part of the program for them this year.
 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 days ago
Nope, no brochure. It's a shame, too, because I had prepared what my response to that would be.
 
Spectre
Spectre 2 days ago

Since JWs are legends in their own minds and are coming from a place of ultimate authority, I think they think all they need to do for "encouragement" is say, "I know I'd sure love to see you there." In their minds there is never a reason to leave so the problem is you and so to them, "you know in your heart it's The Truth(tm)" so I think they get lazy when trying to encourage former members.
My aunt and uncle stopped by to see me a couple years ago and after an hour visit he said, "you know, Armageddon is still coming anytime now." Because he said that I know they counted their time for the whole hour.

 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 days ago

Yep, any minute now......
DD
 +2 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 2 days ago

I got my invite yesterday as well. I just may attend; perhaps eat the bread and drink the grape-juice as well.
Hopefully I can lure one or two to pay me a visit and we could discuss the issue of interpretation.



 +0 / -1
Athanasius
Athanasius 2 days ago

During the 16 years that I've lived at my present address, the JWs have been by just two times. A couple of years ago two JWs came by looking for deaf people. Last year we weren't home when they stopped by, but they left a tract.
So maybe this month they will come by with an invite.
 +1 / -0

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"Reproach on Jehovah's name"
by Phizzy 3 days ago 15 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

The longer I am away from the cult, the more very childish and downright silly it seems in many many ways.
Just another example of the childlike way they do not think things through is their obsession with "not bringing reproach on Jehovah's name", that concept was used to stop JW's doing all sorts of stuff, a lot of it quite normal.
But the worst aspect of this concept is that they cover up the evil within their Org any way they can.
Yet they only have to look back on all the cover-ups of the past, by other religions, by Politicians etc etc to see that an open acknowledgement and an open dealing with the situation at the time is far better.
Cover-ups get exposed in the end, and leave you looking far worse than if dealt with honestly.
 +16 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
its daft isnt it Stan?, the malevolent, genocidal, perverted ,vengeful,voyeuristic maniac god of the Bible who was supposed to create man in his own image and we are supposedly likened to be his own children and we are the ones who are supposed to be bringing reproach on his name? my language could get stronger but it would violate the forum rules!
 +7 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 3 days ago

Yes that phrase is ridiculous. It's ridiculous because in reality it's not bringing "reproach upon Jehovah's name" at all, it's "bringing reproach upon the Watchtower Society's name"
smh.....
 +9 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
do they or anyone else think he may have brought reproach on his own name? screw him/her
 +3 / -0
MissFit
MissFit 3 days ago

That phrase is a powerful tool for keeping people in line. It can be used to justify disfellowshipping or cause to fear disfelloiwshipping. This phrase defined my childhood and left me looking over my shoulder with panic as I evaluated my every action.
One of the first thoughts that went through my 12 year old head when I discovered that my "Elder" foster father was molesting my sisters ,was how can I stop him without "bringing reproach on Jehovah?"
You were right: cover up it was. Tell the elders and not the authorities. Not even the case worker. Tell no one . No reproach....my responsibility, my duty.
 +7 / -0
WTWizard
WTWizard 3 days ago
The being that brought the most reproach on joke-hova's name is joke-hova itself. The most damning book about Christi-SCAM-ity (and Judaism) is the Bible itself. The washtowel's own publications do more damage to the washtowel than any apostates. You want proof that joke-hova wants to enslave mankind? Look no farther than the Bible--it's right there in plain sight, if people would just look for it.

 +3 / -0
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 3 days ago
"Yet they only have to look back on all the cover-ups of the past, by other religions, by Politicians etc etc to see that an open acknowledgement and an open dealing with the situation at the time is far better.
Cover-ups get exposed in the end, and leave you looking far worse than if dealt with honestly."
I think you're absolutely right on this.
I keep banging on about the ARC hearings, but that's because I think that they are so important. Impartial, courteous, clinical, informed, forensic - and absolutely devastating IMHO to the jw org.
Even if everyone of the pitiful shower knew that they couldn't do or admit anything for fear of the GB, Jackson was handed a golden opportunity to 'fess up, agree to changes,and project a new and more wholesome image. What did he do? Smugly obfuscate, dodge the questions and generally sit like a fat superior slug (my personal view). Was he also in fear of the rest of the GB? I can visualise him returning to the bosom of the GB, much back-slapping, and 'well done Geoff, we showed those worldlies!' before sitting down to draft their written response which was, IMHO, cringe-worthy.
There is some excuse (being charitable) for most of the jw 'worthies' who gave evidence. Generally uneducated, used to being surrounded by those who are discouraged from challenging their authority, This particularly applies to Jackson. IIRC he was baptised at 15 and a gung-ho jw thereafter. So uneducated, inexperienced, naieve and especially in recent years surrounded by sychophants. But no excuse for him, really, because he should know his limitations.
One of the bits I most 'enjoyed' (maybe not the right word) was the evidence of the Oz branch lawyer, Toole. All other jw witnesses were only significant/qualified within the organisation (which as Shania Twain said 'don't impress me much') but here was (apparently) a ('worldly') qualified and experienced lawyer who could be expected to engage with SC Assisting Stewart on equal terms. It didn't work out like that and ARC reported him to the Law Society (or its equivalent) - he could be struck off.
VAG have a problem world-wide with their vehicles and reputation. It is interesting to compare their response with that of the jws.
If you're up to your neck in shit, sometimes it's best to stop digging the hole and put your hands up. This may not apply if you're 'waiting on jehovah' to pull you out and hose you down.

 +8 / -0
steve2
steve2 3 days ago

Well the biggest "reproach" is transforming their name from Jehovah's Witnesses to JW org - so I guess the buzz phrase in the organization will now be 'not bringing reproach upon our initials'.
 +5 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 3 days ago

I have ALWAYS hated that phrase, "it will bring reproach on Jehovah's name"
If Jehovah wrote about all the crap that happened "in his org" in the Hebrew scriptures, he wasn't worried about "bringing reproach on his name" ... even tho his number one guy, Satan, screeed him in the garden of Eden...
I called a spade a spade... Why can't we?
 +4 / -0
steve2
steve2 3 days ago
Forget about the genocidal maniacal God of the Bible, The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society has done an excellent job in its 130 plus year-history of bringing mountainous reproach upon itself.
 +2 / -0
Alive!
Alive! 3 days ago
Good point Cha Ching.
 +2 / -0
Athanasius
Athanasius 2 days ago

If the JWs are so concerned about bringing reproach upon Jehovah's name, then perhaps they should change the name of their religion. Drop the name Jehovah's Witnesses and go back to being called Bible Students or some other innocuous title.

 +4 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

Really well said Joe Grundy!
Great comments and observations!
 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 2 days ago

Aren`t Jehovah`s Witnesses / the Governing Body , themselves bringing reproach on GOD`s name ?
They have admitted in there own publications that the name "Jehovah" is not the correct pronunciation for the Tetragramatton YHWH , yet they insist on calling themselves Jehovah`s Witnesses , Why ?
Their reasoning :" It is the most commonly accepted name in use today"
I ask you , the most commonly accepted name , by who ? Why Christendom of course who else uses the name Jehovah.
Jehovah`s Witnesses view Christendom as the most reprehensible part of" Babylon The Great the world empire of false religion" so why would they adopt the name of GOD that Christendom bestowed upon him .?.
It would have been more credible for them to have adopted the name YAHWEH and not Jehovah
Yet they continually promote this wrong name of God world wide , bringing reproach upon his name.
smiddy
 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 days ago


"Reproach on Jehovah's name"
Reproach on a 13th Century Catholic Translation Mistake??!!..
Who Could Possibly Be Stupid Enough..
To Embrace a 13th Century Catholic Translation Mistake!
.

Image result for jehovah's witness watchtower logo
......................................................Image result for ha ha
 +3 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 2 days ago

Reproach on Jah's name?
Like when "worldlies" find out the nice co-worker shuns their flesh and blood for years on end because they no long believe in their parents religion?
Like when JWs knock on the door on Xmas morning pushing a WT magazine into the face of the homeowner?
Like when JWs hide in at their desk while the rest of the workers sing happy birthday to a co-worker?
Like when JWs refuse to stand up during the national anthem because they think Jah will be sad?
Like when JW quietly cheer at terrorist attacks because it means the end is near?
Like when JWs walk into the coffee shop or McDonalds overdressed in Suits and ties on Saturday morning after participating an hour or so in a "life saving work", only to be stared at like weirdos because they look just like that, weirdos....
Reproach on Jahs name comes from JWs themselves, simply because the so called God they worship is a bumbling idiot.
 +3 / -0

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Terry
7
MAYBE GOD DID MAKE "Adam and Steve" after all!
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 3 days ago
here is the box containing what we think we know:.

let’s think outside the box.

god is invisible but he made man in his “image.” what does an invisible image look like?.

Terry
deegee
Finkelstein
2 days ago
AFRIKANMAN
1
A Brief History of Disobedience
by AFRIKANMAN in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
"oh my goodness, look at that sign over there.

keep off the grass.

makes me wonder who put it there.

Phizzy
3 days ago
OneEyedJoe
13
Got my memorial invite yesterday...
by OneEyedJoe in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
i wasn't sure how this would be handled since the elders haven't harassed me as much as a lot of others have gotten, plus we live a ways outside of the territory so i figured there was a shot they'd leave me alone since it's inconvenient.

guess not.

two elders showed up unannounced toward the end of their recruiting shift.

DATA-DOG
Vanderhoven7
Athanasius
2 days ago
Lostandfound
Bookmakers visit 1975 not failed
by Lostandfound in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 3 days ago
i am going to place my first ever bet on the new overlapping doctrine proving the 1975 prophecy has not failed as overlapping years means we are still in 1974 overlapped with all of 1965 onwards.. also what odds will i get on steven lett not hinting at donations for all of march?.

or odds on bro turd not announcing a letter to all bethel families that henceforth they give the society a monthly allowance.

or odds onmarx brothers all being gb members serving back in the 40s?.

Pallbearer
6
A few questions I need help with please.
by Pallbearer in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
howdy folks!.

has that title changed?

if so, what is it now called?

Pallbearer
LostGeneration
Wild_Thing
3 days ago
Terry
10
ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUSPICIOUS, CYNICAL and WRONG? IF SO, WHY?
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
the intellect gives us our powers of conception, judgment, and free choice in the way which has separated humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom.

it really works and this is proved by the fact we are out of the food chain dominating all other species.. however, be warned!

human intellect is not a perfectly functioning machine.

Vidiot
deegee
Terry
2 days ago
Phizzy
15
"Reproach on Jehovah's name"
by Phizzy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
the longer i am away from the cult, the more very childish and downright silly it seems in many many ways.. just another example of the childlike way they do not think things through is their obsession with "not bringing reproach on jehovah's name", that concept was used to stop jw's doing all sorts of stuff, a lot of it quite normal.. but the worst aspect of this concept is that they cover up the evil within their org any way they can.. yet they only have to look back on all the cover-ups of the past, by other religions, by politicians etc etc to see that an open acknowledgement and an open dealing with the situation at the time is far better.. cover-ups get exposed in the end, and leave you looking far worse than if dealt with honestly..

smiddy
OUTLAW
LostGeneration
2 days ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
25
Another Galling WT Study
by Nicholaus Kopernicus in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
january 2016 watchtower (study edition).

be determined to “let your brotherly love continue”!.

this article was easy to read.

DATA-DOG
Nicholaus Kopernicus
Beth Sarim
2 days ago
alcyone
7
SKE school
by alcyone in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
would you like to volunteer in the kitchen?

http://ske-vancouver.com/.

i do not understand why they are showing all the information on a public web.... .

BluesBrother
eyeuse2badub
Naoscillator
3 days ago
Atlantis
3 March Presentation Instruction Videos!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
2016 march presentation instruction videos.. video-1.

http://we.tl/calia3tbgq.

http://we.tl/38xg4rraey.


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Like Father, Like Son
by cofty 4 days ago 36 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 4 days ago

When faced with awkward questions about the morality of god many christians respond by distancing themselves from the Old Testament and focusing on "gentle Jesus meek and mild" of the New Testament.
For bible-believing christians this is intellectually dishonest.
According to christian dogma Jesus was the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The Logos, the Alpha and Omega who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever."
He claimed that "he that has seen me has seen the Father" and that "I and the Father are one".
In short, christians assert that Jesus is Almighty God from all eternity.
It therefore follows that Jesus was the god who ordered the nation of Israel to take slaves as inheritable possessions. Jesus instructed the armies of Joshua to commit genocide, to murder women and babies in cold blood and to kidnap virgins for sex-slaves.
Jesus of the gospels is like a Nazi leader with a new identity living like a harmless, friendly old man in South America.
 +11 / -2
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 3 days ago

I'm getting the impression that a few "JWs gone Atheist" believe that the God of the Old Testament, if he were truly good, would not have done anything that would compromise anyone's happiness.
If there was a God, should the circumstances have been kinda like the JW's Paradise? Is that what I'm getting here?
I just read these with curiosity as this perspective is very different from that which I know. And btw, I only passively engage in these debates. I can't learn the mindset of those who I'm trying to help if I'm busy telling people what they should think.
Will be gone for a few hours... but I'm excited to read the thoughts that get added.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

.. if he were truly good, would not have done anything that would compromise anyone's happiness.
I have never encountered anybody with such a simplistic viewpoint. If I did I would join the theist in correcting them.
On the other hand a god who ordered the nation of Israel to take slaves as inheritable possessions,instructed the armies of Joshua to commit genocide, to murder women and babies in cold blood and to kidnap virgins for sex-slaves, is not good by any sensible definition of the word; certainly not good when judged by the words of Jesus of the gospels.
 +3 / -1
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue 3 days ago

If there was a God, should the circumstances have been kinda like the JW's Paradise? Is that what I'm getting here?
No, you're missing the point altogether. Jesus as a reflection of the father is dishonest because Jehovah didn't act in same manner as Jesus did when on earth (according to the gospels). Jesus was in effect a revisionist explanation for the God of the old testament. The reason for this is that ancient Israel was a product of the times they lived in.Their God was a reflection of those times. Mankind created God, not the over way around.
 +6 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 days ago

I already answered this point on another thread. But because there was a fundamentalist present on that thread you ruled my explanation out of order. (How that follows I don't know) Are you inviting the response on this thread. Or are only weak fundamentalist answers allowed on this thread also?
 +3 / -3
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

From the OP...
"For bible-believing christians this is intellectually dishonest."

 +1 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
its interesting Cofty highlighting the role Jesus Christ plays in the so called triune godhead(I'm neither fussed by a triune god or monotheism, both mean nothing to me) and not something I've generally paid too much attention to even as a jw and after I left for a short time as a Christian I played up the fact that the ransom was to do away with the Mosaic Law and this new religion was nice and comfortable and far easier than the shackles that were placed on those practising Judaism or any other belief system, but a good point to discuss with Christians and to emphasise that JC/Yahweh or whatever you want to call it and the so called Holy Spirit is just as malevolent as the god of the OT, good points.
 +2 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 days ago
Liberals consider themselves bible believing Christians.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

The OP is a challenge to christians who believe that all 66 books of the bible are inspired of god and that the events described in the OT and NT actually happened as described.
There are many flaws in the beliefs of "liberal christians" but this challenge is not one of them.
 +1 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 days ago

Okay so only weak fundamentalist answers are welcome. That's clear. So when you are done hammering your weakest opponents and the shallowest counter arguments - then you'll get around to tackling the strongest counter arguments, right?
 +4 / -4
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Do you have to work hard at being obtuse?
I have raised a specific challenge against evangelical doctrine.
I have many other threads that challenge the beliefs of liberal christianity.
The longest sustained debate in the history of the forum challenges the foundation of liberal christianity.
This thread is about an important internal contradiction in the sort of christianity believed in by millions of christians.
 +3 / -4
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

Most christians like to focus on the new testament and only visit the old testament when they want to argue about the 10 commandments being somehow relevant and deserving of a place on a government lawn.
The gods in both books represent the exact same family business and values but the later book underwent significant re-branding - lets face it, the OT was the ISIS-fest of it's day and they was inspiration for much of the barbarism of the Catholic and Protestant blood-fest in the middle ages.
Now it's all about re-branding and selling it as a new-age hippy hug-everyone good-will-to-all family friendly easy to follow lifestyle.
Just one reason theists don't like to discuss the bible in any detail or god in any detail but talk in broad terms about feelings and mystery.
 +4 / -2
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 days ago
Do you mean the thread where you referred to a discussion with your pastor and tried to argue that suffering shows there is no God or no God worth knowing? I pointed out the answer on that thread also. The Bible both describes God as good and that we cannot understand the mind of God or his reason for acting the way he does. This is the Bible's answer. Whether we like it or not.
 +8 / -1
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 days ago

Cofty» In short, Christians assert that Jesus is Almighty God from all eternity.
TRUE.
It therefore follows that Jesus was the God who ordered the nation of Israel to take slaves as inheritable possessions. Jesus instructed the armies of Joshua to commit genocide, to murder women and babies in cold blood and to kidnap virgins for sex-slaves.
FALSE. In no instance did God ever "order" the taking of slaves. He did, however, allow it as it was an ancient custom. And though they could be inherited, the Lord directed that on certain occasions and jubilees that the slaves be released with compensation. It was, I suppose, better than being subjected to death. And God never instructed people to murder, as murder was against the law. I don't ever recall the Lord using the term "murder" in that regard. The Canaanites were a perverted people who sacrificed their own infants in the fires of Molech. There's a difference between cleansing and murder. And Christians don't view death as the end of existence, but rather, a penalty. So if God is real and gave those commandments, then those who died simply went from one phase of existence to another. And if God doesn't exist, then there is no good or evil anyway.
Jesus of the gospels is like a Nazi leader with a new identity living like a harmless, friendly old man in South America.
RIDICULOUS. One day every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ. And when that day comes, I want you to remember this in all vividness -- that you thought you were good enough to judge Him.
 +3 / -7
OneGenTwoGroups
OneGenTwoGroups 3 days ago

God does something that appears to be good, the Christian appreciates the goodness of God.
God does something that appears to be not good, the Christian doesn't understand the mind of God.
Kind of like a mother whose son is a serial killer, she loves him anyway.
 +6 / -1
2+2=5
2+2=5 3 days ago

RIDICULOUS. One day every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ. And when that day comes, I want you to remember this in all vividness -- that you thought you were good enough to judge Him.

You counter what you call ridiculous, with pure fantasy.
One day, everyone who has ever lived will meet their eternal end, death. When that day arrives for you, I want you to remember this in all its vividness, that you will die like every other living thing that ever was.
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

Do you mean the thread where you referred to a discussion ...
slimboyfat: let me make this very clear. I'm tired of seeing you trying to continue disagreements over multiple topics and ruin decent discussions with utter nonsense. Stick to the topic at hand and stop trying to carry on vendettas over discussions long gone.
I've lowered your posting limit again. Next step is deleting your account.
 +10 / -4
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 days ago

2+2=5» You counter what you call ridiculous, with pure fantasy.
Fantasy has no hope of being reality. In every reality, fantasy is false. Religion and Christianity have not been shown to be false. Cofty has dismissed my and many other's comments with mostly insubstantial and, at best, unproven responses. My response, above, is no more fantasy than his, but I believe, as a Christian, that every knee shall bend and every tongue will confess Christ.
Cofty never, ever, says, "I believe..." but with, "This is the way it is..." He also resorts to name calling, which I'm not comfortable with. But to me, what he said in his post is just blather he's read on the Internet. I haven't seen him present one original thought. His arguments remind me of the flat earthers who spout some facts, but not ones that lead to correct conclusions.
But you're right as far as that my conclusions are not provable. But if they're ridiculous, they're no more or less so than his. But this board is all about opinions and experiences.
 +1 / -1
smiddy
smiddy 3 days ago

Cold steel
"In no instance did God ever" order" the taking of slaves .He did however , allow it as it was an ancient custom .And though they could be inherited ,the Lord directed that on certain occasions and Jubilees , that the slaves be released with compensation "
Jehovah allowed the taking of slaves because it was an ancient custom of men .Seriously ?
Who is GOD here .
On certain occasions and Jubilees the slaves could be released with compensation . Big Deal
Jubilee`s occurred .every 50 years , So in reality a slave could be released when he was 50 , 60 , 70 ,80 years old , as I said before big deal , thank you Jehovah .( sarcasm intended )
As for Jehovah never committing murder , you have to be kidding.
Man , woman , child , in countless nations were put to death by the sword at the instruction of Jehovah God in the Old Testament , with the instruction" do not feel sorry for them"" Old men young men , women and children"
You are being pedantic in saying " you don`t recall the Lord using the word murder "
smiddy
 +2 / -1
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago


Coldsteel
He did, however, allow it as it was an ancient custom.
God supposedly wanted to make Israel his special people amongst the nations. He gave them several commands to remember them they were different. Israel was not allowed to follow the customs of the land when it came to very important things like clothing (don't mix two fibres in one cloth, add a blue ribbon and fringes to you garment) or cooking (don't eat blood, no pork etc, don't boil a goat in his mother's milk).
Israel was not allowed to do these ancient customs.
But when it came to slavery and war crimes....well it would be too much to ask Israel to stop following the customs of the nations with that, right? It's not that human life and dignity is more important than clothing and cooking and having a day of.
And though they could be inherited, the Lord directed that on certain occasions and jubilees that the slaves be released with compensation.
Yeees, but only the Hebrew slaves were set free. All foreigners, POW and abducted girls were screwed for life (also literally) (Le 25)



So when the OP states that Jesus is God's image, it means that Jesus is more concerned with what you eat and how you dress than with human life and freedom.
Hey does that remind you of a certain religion?
 +3 / -0

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Like Father, Like Son
by cofty 4 days ago 36 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Coldsteel - Your assertions are all wrong. I sometimes wonder if christians ever read the bible. Perhaps you are too busy reading Jo Smith's work of fiction?
I am off out for the day but I look forward to responding in detail later.
For the moment I would like to just point out one lie in your post..
He also resorts to name calling
I never do that - ever. I get called names by believers most days but I never respond in kind.
It's ok I know you won't apologise for your lie.
 +2 / -2
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 days ago
Thank you Simon for your hard work in moderating the forum for all these years. I appreciate that you deal with people fairly and apply the rules evenly to everyone.
 +2 / -0
GodZoo
GodZoo 3 days ago

Slimboy stop grovelling it does not become you.. it's just a forum and not a Kingdom Hall. I see people get away with murder in here because they are the chiefs favourites.. hardly fair at all so don't worry about it.
If he would kick you out after 11 years of contributing to this forum merely because you have strong feelings and simply don't agree with many of these caustic atheist bullies then maybe your talents and energies would in fact be better served elsewhere. you contribute an awful lot more than admin do that's for sure. Anyone can set up a site and 'moderate' (he get's paid too by the way).. it's the contributors that are the life blood and content of places like this. I have seen some of the greatest and most intelligent minds and contributors banned for similarly clashing, disagreeing with (or standing up to) the powers that be.
But hey it's his toy so I guess he get's to dictate who get's to play with it.
Slimboy you are valued and appreciated.. don't let anyone make you feel otherwise.
 +4 / -3
OneGenTwoGroups
OneGenTwoGroups 3 days ago

If I were a Christian I would also try to avoid discussing this aspect of Christianity, which is the point that Cofty is making here.
"But that was the Old Testament" is proffered over and over again out there in the real world. No, it's not said by professional Christian apologists (for the most part), but it is said over and over again my millions of nominal Christians. I've been hearing it for 40 years.
The point here is the separation of the Son from the Father and Yahweh in the minds of many Christians, not just the atrocities committed by Yahweh.




 +2 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

Some Christians are even uncomfortable with the fact that Jesus would have been a darkish skinned orthodox Jewish man.
The problem that Bible believers keep having to shove under the carpet is that so much of the Bible is simply embarrassing by 21st Century standards.
And yet, it is the "word of God", yea right.
It is a similar problem for Muslims who claim to be modern and moderate, to be so, they have to reject at least two-thirds of the Quran.
 +5 / -0
Bugbear
Bugbear 3 days ago

Cofty:
You are 100% correct% Jesus = Yahwe = evil and not a merciful God in ancient times.
Cold steel:
Yahwe allows his followers to act barbarian, meaning that he actually accept the world of cruelty, and don’t give a damn on what is happening to his sons and daughter’s…
Bugbear
 +2 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago
Wouldn't it be funny if Cofty and SBF where really the same person...or even better married to each other, but the kids had ruled to save their sanity the parents were only allowed to debate the "R" word on forums, the proviso being that the parents were not allowed to TELL each other when one of them made a post ( or dinner would never get done as they'd be at it all day). Explains why Slim is so fast off the drawer - he's seen hubby sneak off into the study & guesses what he's up to!)
 +4 / -0
steve2
steve2 3 days ago

Cold Steel, does the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) ever make an explicit distinction between God's commanding His people to do/practice something and His " allowing" them to do/practice something because it is an already-existing custom (to use your word)?
This sort of dubious distinction seems like a modern attempt at white-washing the God of the Old Testament.
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago

 And though they could be inherited, the Lord directed that on certain occasions and jubilees that the slaves be released with compensation. It was, I suppose, better than being subjected to death.
Why do theists pretend not to know that this jubilee applied ONLY to Jews - as I have pointed out before according to their own theology the Isrealites were all cousins, how generous of God to allow relatives a release from slavery after 50 years when they were too old and sick to feed themselves ....how happy the slavemaster would be not to have a useless mouth to feed.
Did the OT Isrealites do one single thing differently to any other ancient tribe in the circumstances?No - despite the wisdom of the all mighty wise creator of the universe they behaved as abominably as any other Bronze Age tribe, funny that!Anyone would think they just made the whole God thing up!Oh wait..
It took the influence of the oh so human Greek philosophers to trickle down to the Isrealites from about 300 BC before they started to become somewhat more enlightened around the time the NT was penned.
 +3 / -0
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 days ago

Jehovah allowed the taking of slaves because it was an ancient custom of men. Seriously? Who is GOD here?
It was the custom of many cultures, yet the word of God was, "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
The Lord set the bounds of servitude, and slavery, to ancient Israel, was far different than slavery as it existed in surrounding cultures. As one Christian apologist put it:

...slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable -- up to death of the offending party. Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath, slander a slave, have sex with another man's slave or return an escaped slave. A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.
The law of the Lord also stipulated: "If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave's service. He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God." (Leviticus 25:39-43)
It's also true that God watched over the animals and the sojourner. If a man planted fig trees, he could only put nets over some of them. He had to leave some unnetted and reserved to the birds of the air. And farmers could not wall off their crops from the traveler, but left them open for those who hungered. Travelers, of course, were forbidden to abuse the law and gather from these crops, so a balance was developed that worked. But all of these laws were a balance between justice and compassion.
If God exists, it is the gravest folly for us to presume to judge Him, for it is He who framed the values of both good and evil. If He does not exist, good and evil are mere concepts that are as meaningless as the shapes of cosmic dust in the heavens. They may be completely different on other worlds where evolution spawns completely different forms of intelligent life.
...does the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) ever make an explicit distinction between God's commanding His people to do/practice something and His "allowing" them to do/practice something because it is an already-existing custom (to use your word)?
Yes, in the days of Samuel, the people wanted a king like the nations thereabout, so the Lord, after recommending against it, chose the best man for the job. It turned out to be a disaster. In our day, the Lord permits divorce, even though He detests it. There are also things that if we do it on our own volition are sins, but if commanded are not. Killing a people and taking their land is gross wickedness, but if the Lord commands it, it's not wickedness. The Lord, knowing all things, considers all things and knows the intent of our hearts. He knew the Canaanites were a wicked and adulterous people who passed their children through the fire, burning them alive. But when the Lord ordered their destruction at the hands of Israel, people who know nothing of their acts, or what was in their hearts, accuse Him of murder.
When the Lord ordered the destruction of a people, the anointed King, Saul, refused to kill the enemy king. The prophet Samuel then had the king brought before him. And there, even as the king pled for his life, Samuel slew him with a sword.
This debate is really about whether there is a God or not, not whether His actions are just. Again, if God exists, then He knows all things past, present and future; He knows the hearts and thoughts of all men. He is perfect. He is just. It's pointless to try to judge Him by atheistic standards, ethics or morals as those are not even binding on themselves, much less God.
 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Coldsteel - You have done what every christian apologist does when challenged about god's appalling ethics; you lied.
My moral objection is about how god instructed Israel to take slaves as possessions from non-Jewish nations. You changed the subject and waffled about treatment of Jewish servants.
As rational and ethical humans we understand that it is fundamentally wrong for one human to own another human and to treat them as if they were commodities.
Your god did not manage to grasp this basic ethical fact.
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another." Lev.25
That sounds despicable to 21st century minds because it is. There is no use prevaricating about how it was common practice in Iron Age Palestine or how Israel treated their slaves better than other nations.
Does your god measure his morals against the depravities of others?
It gets worse...
"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone." - Ex.21

So much for your god's concern for the family. The wife and children of slaves become the inheritable possessions of the Jewish master. Nothing more than chattel.
Why does the UN Commission on Human rights understand ethics more clearly than your omnipotent god?
"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." - Ex.21
Now back to the point of the thread. According to christians Jesus is Yahweh of the OT.
Therefore gentle Jesus of the gospels is an advocate of slavery of the worse kind.
I will get to Jesus' approval of genocide, kidnap, forced marriage/rape and baby murdering tomorrow.
 +4 / -1
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 days ago

Cofty» I never [resort to name calling] - ever. I get called names by believers most days but I never respond in kind. It's ok I know you won't apologise for your lie.
Oh, really? You say that you never engage in name calling, but the first thing you do is say I'm a liar!
Then, in your very next post, you say:
You have done what every christian apologist does when challenged about God's appalling ethics; you lied.
So where did I lie that you should call me a liar?
I'm not saying that Israel did not take permanent slaves. They did not enslave, but were able to buy them from surrounding nations. Thus, according to the law:
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
The law stipulates that Israelites were not allowed to take a man by force: "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:16) This refers to any man. But if the man is already a slave, the law allows him to be purchased as property. Both the law and the gospel advocated that servants be loyal to their masters, and that masters be kind to their servants.
"Servants," wrote Peter, "be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle, but to the unjust." (I Peter 2:16) And Jesus referred to himself as a slave. "But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:42-46)
Atheists view this life as it. Period. But God created man to become like Him, and this earth as an exile and a place of testing and development. The law given to the people of God in all nations consist of compassion, respect, honor, loyalty, virtue, integrity and love for God and one's fellow man. And again, Christians believe trying to judge God without knowing what He knows is folly.
Those from pagan nations who were enslaved could have had it a lot worse. They had health care, shelter, the right to marry, food, a day of rest, and even though they could be inherited, they were often given their liberty. They also were frequently educated by their masters and were allowed to take part in the family's religion. And instead of being sent to the salt mines or slaving away in the fields, most were made domestic servants. That doesn't mean slavery is a great institution, but if I were a slave back then, I'd sure as hell would rather be a servant to Israelites than Edomites, Canaanites, Egyptians, Philistines or anyone else; because the Israelites knew they were stewards over their possessions.
That's what led Job to declare, “If I have rejected the cause of my manservant or my maidservant, when they brought a complaint against me, what then shall I do when God rises up? When he makes inquiry, what shall I answer him? Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?" (Job 31: 13-15)
Finally, if a slave did escape and flee, and sought assistance from another Jew, that Jew is prohibited by the law in turning the slave back over to his master. And in that day and under those circumstances, it wasn't that difficult to escape. There were no chains and most domestic servants had enough freedom that if they really had it bad, they could escape and know the other Jews couldn't drag him back bound and gagged. That's a strange form of slavery.
This isn't mere rationalization. Although I don't like the institution of slavery, where one man owns another, who am I, or you, to judge God? But what is your object? Is it that the God of Israel is a monster because he destroys the wicked and condones slavery? Or is it that He can't exist because a perfect being would not do such things...in your opinion?
As a believer in God, I don't feel I can judge Him. But if one doesn't believe in God, slavery isn't going to be a viable part of the debate as it neither proves nor negates His existence. God does not live by the U.N. mandates, nor does He share all of our values. "For my ways are not your ways, neither are your thoughts my thoughts. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

As for your other jabs, have fun. No matter what others say, you've already made your judgments. If I'm right, explain them to God. If you're right, then there's no right or wrong anyway. No one will have to answer for anything. Even history will eventually crumble to pieces and be forgotten.
 +1 / -2
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Coldsteel - Not a single word in your reply deals with the challenge. It's all just obfuscation.
God told Israelites they could...
◦ take slaves from other nations
◦Own them as permanent possessions
◦Pass them on to their children
◦Be free of blame if their slave died of a beating (as long as they lasted until the next day)
◦Keep a man's wife and children if he was ever granted freedom
This is morally repugnant.
Jesus approves of conduct that is rejected by every sensible 21st century person.
I will get to his other crimes later.
Although I don't like the institution of slavery, where one man owns another, who am I, or you, to judge God?
I can't answer for you but I'm an intelligent and ethically aware human being who won't be told that slavery is good just because an ancient book says so.
By the way when I said that you had lied that wasn't name-calling, it was a simple statement of fact. I never resort to name-calling.
 +4 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 2 days ago

Cofty your point about the identity of God and Jesus and their relationship is fundamental to Christian belief and yet as you point out it presents a striking ambiguity.
This fact is at the heart of Christian theology, for more than sixteen hundred years it has distracted the minds of honest people seeking truth but the father / son paradox presents us with the clear signature of something other than truth.
Only in myth can the irreconcilable be harmonized. Only in myth can contradictory, impossible or illogical tales be presented without an assault on the intellect.
I have been thinking about this for some time and conclude that the only answer is that the Biblical account is merely an extension and re-writing of older folk tales.
The oldest rustic wisdom comes from a vast repository of story-lines which gave the needed explanation for "the meaning of life" through the movements of the literal heavens as seen on a night with a clear sky. Humans always want an explanation.
Before writing was invented the description of the heavenly bodies served as the universal book and the tales of the heavenly gods were told again and again. They were drawn from the pattern of the constellations (formed only by the human imagination) and the daily rotation of the Earth and the annual movements of the Sun. Heavenly activity, it was thought, determined events on Earth in the form of natural effects of wind, storm, flood, drought, darkness, success or failure etc. Light and darkness were key indicators.
These tales transcend nation and continents and variants of them are to be found from Mexico to Siberia to India. The common factor being that the stellar objects are universal and the mnemonics for repeating their stories to the next generation became the foundations of universal religious belief.
This is a large subject deliberately hidden and condemned as pagan by fourth century Roman Christianity but to cut to the chase, the ambiguity of the father and son in the astronomical myth; is central to the solar myth element and is demonstrated at the spring equinox alias Easter.
The Solar hero “born in the Virgin” of astrology with oxen (Taurus) present, became the teacher and healer assembling his twelve helpers (zodiacal houses) as he travelled through them in the solar year. He was destined every year to be born on the shortest day and die a sacrificial death at Easter whereby he would as the Solar God return to his heavenly father who was also a Solar God. The two ruling together each year in heaven was explained by the increased strength of the sunlight in the northern hemisphere at this time of year.
Incidentally it was only from about 390 BCE that it was understood that the sun at Easter appeared to cross over or “passover” from the southern dominance to the northern. In technical speech the plane of the ecliptic i.e. the natural plane at which the centre of the Earth travels around the sun crosses over the line of the equator, making equal day and night time...which is the meaning of "equinox" and happens twice each year in spring and autumn. (It is necessary to have a clear mental image of why the seasons arise to grasp this.)
 As the armillary sphere demonstrates this “pass over” forms a "cross" where the two lines converge (the plane of the ecliptic and the equator) and this saltire shape or St Andrews cross became the symbol on which the Saviour Mithra stood. So being sacrificed at the spring equinox on a cross was the mnemonic or symbol for the solar event. By this central belief we can connect the Jewish Passover with the Mithraic cross and all the solar- Gods such as Jesus, Dionysus, Attis, Osiris and Horus et al.
No self respecting saviour figure would be seen without his cross at Easter!
The confounding and persistent detail of the myth is that father of the sacrificed Solar God was himself a Sun God.
 
OneGenTwoGroups
OneGenTwoGroups 2 days ago

I've seen this "the Israelites couldn't kidnap" defense on the issue of slavery several times, but I'm still waiting to see why this matters.
"You can buy humans, but don't you go stealing them!"
 +2 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 2 days ago

Again, if God exists, then He knows all things past, present and future; He knows the hearts and thoughts of all men. He is perfect. He is just. It's pointless to try to judge Him by atheistic standards, ethics or morals as those are not even binding on themselves, much less God.
That's a leap you are taking: if God exists, then he is all these other things like perfect and just.
You are running around in circles:
◦My God is perfect and just.
◦How do you know?
◦Look at all the stuff He has done, it shows how just and perfect He is.
◦Mmm....okay, but what about allowing humans to be kept as property when He could have easily forbidden it, just like he forbade a lot of useless stuff? (Or insert other objections)
◦That's also perfect and just, because God is perfect and just! Don't you dare judge Him!
This line of reasoning sounds like
◦All cars are red.
◦Umm, what about this blue one?
◦It's also red, because all cars are red. Besides you are not qualified to question colors because you don't accept all cars are red!
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Imagine a political candidate announced his intention to reintroduce slavery to the USA.
His plan is to allow US citizens to take illegal immigrants as permanent possessions. They can be bought and sold and passed on to children as an inheritance. If a slave marries, his wife and children will also become the property of the American slave owner.
He is at pains to point out that the slaves will have some protections under law. They can be beaten but not beaten to death - well if they die of their injuries the next day that will be ok. In any case he reassures everybody that in many ways it won't be the same as slavery used to be.
Would this policy prevent you from voting for such a candidate?
If not, then your morals have no place in a modern democracy.
If it would, then you are judging Jesus to be morally deficient.
 +4 / -1

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Topic Summary
when faced with awkward questions about the morality of god many christians respond by distancing themselves from the old testament and focusing on "gentle jesus meek and mild" of the new testament.. for bible-believing christians this is intellectually dishonest.. according to christian dogma jesus was the god of abraham isaac and jacob.
the logos, the alpha and omega who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever.".
he claimed that "he that has seen me has seen the father" and that "i and the father are one".. in short, christians assert that jesus is almighty god from all eternity.. it therefore follows that jesus was the god who ordered the nation of israel to take slaves as inheritable possessions.



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The Way JW Females Act
by LaurenM 4 days ago 12 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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LaurenM
LaurenM 4 days ago
The more I interact with non-JW men and women the more I notice that I still behave like a JW woman. When I interact with people (men especially) I find myself being super submissive and docile. Acting like I don't have a brain and can't make decisions on my own. Giving so much up just to please them. Like, I do everything to please them without thinking about whether it makes ME happy. But that's the way we've always been taught over and over: Women must be submissive to the man taking the lead. But I feel like this is a bit backwards & excessive in this day and age. Do any other exJW woman find themselves acting this way? How did you learn to stand up for yourself and not always bend to what others tell you to do? I think I've become an easy target for people looking to take advantage of others.
 +6 / -0
TD
TD 4 days ago


Giving so much up just to please them. Like, I do everything to please them without thinking about whether it makes ME happy.
Greetings, LaurenM.

This sentence in particular sounds like a minor personality flaw where too much of a person's self-worth is tied up with the idea of people "Liking" you and thinking well of you. Some people become this way because of a lack of parental affection and approval, while others are just natural born "People-Pleasers" and that's their personality.
Believe it or not, men and women suffer from it in almost equal numbers and there are self-help books dedicated to helping people overcome it.

 +3 / -0
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 4 days ago

As a not ex jw female that did have this submissive type behavior taught to me by my upbringing, I found that once i began to stop asking for others ( meaning any man) to do something for me, it was a step in the path of many steps towards learning how to not only take care of myself, by myself, but to feel empowered. Whatever it is that helps you feel empowered is helpful in my view. I went back to school and got two degrees, it helped. I refused to back down from a point I felt was correct when challenged, it helped. Learning HOW to argue ( productively and without emotions messing up the process) was a huge help. A debate team experience would be wonderful!I Also research issues of importance to death. I love providing many forms of proof to back up my argument. ( This is a point that my husband HATES.....huh, wonder why? )

The more you stand up for yourself, the more others learn that you are not backing down just due to your gender.
However, keep in mind there is power in appealing to a man's ego. The more the man feels he is in control ( regardless of whether he is or not) the better he feels about himself.) It translates into a more agreeable relationship for you both (as long as he is not emotionally out of whack with a super ego), especially when you recognize that you are in control of when you decide to feed that ego.
Evaluate what is important, make your choices of when it's worth it to back down, and when you will not.
In my marriage now, unfortunately, I have come to the point where I rarely back down. ( So maybe my advice is all wrong, who knows). I used to be super submissive many eons ago.As TD said above, I was hyper focused on everyone liking me and that was a huge contributor.

There are many factors in my own marriage playing into my inability to back down anymore. But, the basic way I was able to stop with the submissiveness thing was to take the steps, one by one. relearning, reevaluating, rethinking, and recognizing when I was being submissive when I didn't want to be. Plus, keep emotion out of it. Just calmly, stop. step out of the comfort zone of allowing others to think for you. it isn't easy to make your own decisions, because then you are responsible for them! But it is VERY worth it.

 +1 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 4 days ago


Do any other exJW woman find themselves acting this way?
I'm not an exJW woman, but as an exJW I find that I may tend to be obedient/compliant/weak-willed at times around "superiors". To my credit, they love me at work both because of my skill and my psychology to get everyone to cooperate productively. Enough about me...


How did you learn to stand up for yourself and not always bend to what others tell you to do?
My opinion and experience: First step is to literally "stand up" with good posture and confident body language. It affects how others view you and how you view yourself. Next, I listen carefully to every interaction and usually have a notebook with me to note things down. If this is a request from someone not my boss, I check with my boss. I have lots to do, so he has the option of telling me to drop it or place it somewhere in my priority. Then, I play through scenarios in my head of how something may play out.


I think I've become an easy target for people looking to take advantage of others.
Learn from the examples of others around you on how to peacefully navigate your workplace. Take incremental steps to where you want to be.
I hope this is helpful somehow.

 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago

Yes, after a lifetime of having it ingrained that one "needs to be submissive and not be opinionated", it results in a warped view of oneself and a lack of self esteem!
An individual needs to flick the switch inside and recognise that strength of character is not arrogance, neither is being decisive a sin.
It is actually an endearing and attractive quality to see a person with strength. This shows in poise, demeanour and the ability to express options.
 +1 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 4 days ago

Lauren you need to try standing up for yourself in small things that do not threaten your job and gradually it will sink into you subconscious that the sky will not fall when you do. When you feel safer you can go onto bigger steps.
Give up now on having everyone like you. It's impossible, some people will like you, some won't, some will just not care. That's normal. Once you know this you will stop trying to get everyone's approval.
If you are submissive to men you will attract domineering men. People who bully others should not be welcome in your life, whether they are male or female. I'm sorry to have to be straight with you but a lot of life is about deciding certain behaviours are just wrong and that you won't accept them. The sooner people know you feel this way the sooner you will attract the right kind of people. I was a JW woman by the way, just so you know.
 +1 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 3 days ago

LAUREN:
I am guessing you're a born-in JW, so I guess it would be ingrained,...But, you CAN unlearn this. You can be polite about it but sometimes politeness WON'T work and you have to assert yourself.
I also don't know how old you are. A young girl might be more timid. But, this is not a useful quality in an older woman.
I was not raised in the Witness religion and was taught to have self-esteem. I also had a full-time job. Naturally, I HAD to speak up for myself. I did not concern myself what anybody thought....Men have a tendency to butt-in or speak over some woman, so, in the world you have to assert yourself.
When I came into the JW religion I picked up on the mentality of JW women who were fearful to speak-up. I even remember going on vacation once with JWs. One of the women was even hesitant about asking where the ladies room was when we stopped somewhere. She seemed so helpless!
I got the sense they were looking to ME to lead the way. I don't just chalk this up to the fact she was married because I've been around enough non-JW married women who know how to speak up.
I blame the stupid JW religion that tries to mentally cripple women. Does anybody remember Chinese foot binding? It's illegal now. But, the intent was to make the woman walk with dainty hobbling steps. In effect, crippling her.
THIS is what the Jehovah's Witness religion does to women's brains and I'm glad I'm out of there!
 +5 / -0
rebel8
rebel8 3 days ago

Very interesting!
Unfortunately, I can't help you. I am naturally a non-submissive person. I don't even know how to reverse engineer it. Hopefully others can give you good advice here.
Or maybe this is simpler than that--maybe you just do the same techniques you do with all the other brainwashing issues?

 +1 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 3 days ago

I think chicks are kinda cool when they're mean n stuff.
I dunno, chicks that do everything ya tell em, are real boring......just sayin.
Mad Puppy
 +1 / -0
Outgoing454
Outgoing454 3 days ago

It's a crazy situation atleast from a worldly man who dated a JW born in female. Was kinda akward as I was very outgoing and we became very sexually active for some years. She always seemed distance, she was a virgin but after time she never disagreed with anything but seemed timmid to ask for anything, such as after a long period of sex she would shy around to ask for more or she would hint of wanting to try this or that but always scared to ask me me instead of just doing. Always felt alittle distance and even scared of oral sex, don't get me wrong she enjoyed but never seemed 100% into it like it was wrong. She enjoyed and wanted but guilty afterwards.
 +1 / -0
Phaedra
Phaedra 3 days ago

Hi Lauren,
Good input here - I can identify with where you're at post-JW, and have been doing lots of my own inner work toward being more assertive about my own needs and standing strong in my own space. Wanting to be liked by others is natural, and as mentioned above, understanding the limits to that will work to your advantage on how much investment you put into others over yourself.
Up thread, self-esteem and people pleasing was mentioned. JW hierarchy and forcing the role of the submissive woman definitely shapes and molds the female identity. Couple that with personality type and temperament in women who are more sensitive and facilitating/cooperative in their core means a lot of variations on this theme exist.
Your biggest strength is in recognizing what's currently going on with you. Now you can acknowledge where some of that came from and work towards changing patterns that no longer fit. We're all beautifully complex human beings and one size doesn't fit all in the way we work our way through these things.
Thank you for posting this.

 
LaurenM
LaurenM 3 days ago
Thanks everyone for your imput!! Very insightful as always.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago

You can take the girl out of the WT, but it's a little harder to take the WT out of the girl.
Goes for both genders, BTW.
 +1 / -0

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JW Rumspringa
by SonoftheTrinity 4 days ago 6 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity 4 days ago
Are Jehovah's Witnesses on their way to practicing Amish style Rumspringa? Basically pushing young people out into the world and seeing who comes back with their faith intact. After so many generations of discouraging education, it seems like an easy way to ensure that there are some educated born-ins.
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 4 days ago
Interesting thought. It surprises me that an authoritarian religion like the Amish would even have such an arrangement. All other authoritarian religions, JWs included, don't want their youth to be knowledgeable of the world let alone getting muddy and soiled in it.
 +1 / -0
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity 4 days ago

Well the polygamists in Utah do basically the same thing. They became so authoritarian that they created an atmosphere of hostility toward the next generation of young men so that they can have the young women.
It seems like the more millenarian the JWs become, the more they glorify the older generation as the older generation can't bear the thought that the crescendo of history at Armageddon doesn't happen in their generation, thus making their faith and their life insignificant. The temptation to take their frustration out on the next generation will be there.
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 4 days ago

JW leaders feel very threatened by young men.
If you want to see a good example of it, watch a young man try to rise in the ranks.
He either has to be connected to powers that be
Be super pioneer/spiritual
Brown nose to the ultimate degree
 +3 / -0
prologos
prologos 4 days ago

no, any deviation from wt moral code, even if you get married, and-- it would not be in the hall. and keeping young men down, with the new "christian living" meetings methods, there will no more public speakers trained. New stars, with better education are a threat to the old guard, and will be held down, made to slave for decades.
rumspringa? the best jump will be to get right out.
 +2 / -0
wannaexit
wannaexit 3 days ago

They don't have to push the young ones into a "rumpspringa". There is a lot of freedom among the witness teenagers these days. The kids are doing whatever they want. There are always parties, they travel (under the guise of going where the need is great), they go to their proms, they are getting paired up and dating very young and unchaperoned and no one says a thing.
When I was was growing up, there were so many rules, we literally choked and many in my age group left once they had the chance.

 
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago

The WTS would never do this.
Why?
Because virtually no one would come back.
 

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Memorial Non-Attendance: The Single Most Impactful TTATT Witness to JW Friends & Family
by AMNESIANO 4 days ago 17 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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AMNESIANO
AMNESIANO 4 days ago

NOTE: The following is submitted in full recognition of and with compassion and due respect for those who, due to personal circumstance, feel they are unable to employ this powerful strategy.
---
Anyone who has awakened to TTATT and has conscientiously left the organization--especially a once-prominent, highly-regarded, studious true-believer from a celebrated multi-generational tribe of JWs-- after decades of devout, high-profile "serve-us," who continues to put in an annual appearance at the Memorial thoroughly subverts and undermines, by this one act, any hope s/he may entertain that his/her departure will stir family or former friends to question the whole Watchtower bamboozle. By this one concession s/he assigns him-/herself by every single JW to their handy and dismissive purgatory: the "spiritually-weak."
Nothing blasts a louder, clearer, and more deliberate message to the JWs who personally knew you and to those familiar with your JW bona fides that you are not merely "not making the meetings," "inactive," or "spiritually-weak," but that there is a conscientious reason you have rejected the entire Watchtower Society life than choosing to forego what they know you once believed to be Jehovah's must-attend, one-and-only, holy/sacred event of the year for his people, the Lord's Evening Meal.
You hand them the very justification they so relish to self-righteously label you as a "submarine Witness" deserving of Jehovah's, and more importantly, their judgement.
Much more tragically, though, you squander your prize opportunity to nudge thinking ones to seriously ponder the possible reason for your shocking departure. Again, all accomplished without any confrontational unpleasantness.
Attending the Watchtower's Lord's Evening Meal, even though likely well-intentioned or for many understandably unavoidable at present, is still a colossally misguided go-along-to-get-along concession for anyone whose genuine and sincere intention or desire it is to awaken others to TTATT.
AMNESIAN
Captive 7/1972 - 2/2001
Last Memorial attendance: April 8, 2001
 +11 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 days ago

By this one concession s/he assigns him-/herself by every single JW to their handy and dismissive purgatory: the "spiritually-weak."
It can be read that way, no doubt. But so can non-attendance too. So spiritually weak they don't even make it to the memorial.
I tend to think that annual attendance can be a subversive act too. It can be intended and interpreted as a signal that you simply don't take the whole thing very seriously. A reminder to those who attend regularly that it's perfectly possible to get on with your life without the drudgery of regular attendance at the Kingdom Hall. I know that's sort of what crossed my mind as a believer when I saw the same inactive people turn up for just the memorial year after year.


 +7 / -0
AMNESIANO
AMNESIANO 4 days ago

"It can be intended and interpreted as a signal that you simply don't take the whole thing very seriously."
I like this point and think it quite valid for those wishing to make no more than a casual impression. For those, however, fervent to awaken others to the egregious crimes of the WBTS, my personal experience evidences non-attendance to be the most effective.
AMNESIAN
Captive 7/1972 - 2/2001
 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 days ago

For it to be a bold statement you would probably need to come out and say exactly why you are not attending. If you don't say anything JWs are liable to draw their own, self-serving conclusions: they are spiritually weak/practising sin/ashamed to show their face or whatever.
 +1 / -0
kairos
kairos 4 days ago

Do they pass the emblems to the DF'd section or is it just nods from the passers to the section and a look of shame and heads hung down by the DF'd...?
If they pass them- eat and drink!
 +1 / -0
AMNESIANO
AMNESIANO 4 days ago

One does not, indeed need not, come right out and say anything-- that is, unless and until approached. It's the non-attendance that finally moved others, after years, to muster the courage to contact me as to my reason. It is then the opportunity to speak, to the extent one strategically chooses, is afforded, without the appearance or accusation of activism or inciting dissension.
Btw, I couple this strategy with making it a point to consistently attend the funeral services at the KH of all those for whom I had affection in order to allay any gossip or suspicion that I am in hiding for whatever reason. Trust me, it works magnificently in confounding and prompting inquiry as to my motivations!
I can only speak to the success of my own and nearby experiences. Obviously YMMV.
AMNESIAN
Captive 7/1972 - 2/2001
 +5 / -0
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 4 days ago

Someone that I know that used to attend asked me when he found out I didn't go anymore this exact question.
"So are you a 'go to the memorial' ex JW, or no memorial JW". His question was interesting to me, because the assumption on his part and I believe many others is that if you attend the memorial, DEEP DOWN you still feel the way you used to.
Since I heard that question....I no longer attend memorial. I am hoping my wife stays home this year for the first time.

 +6 / -0
AMNESIANO
AMNESIANO 4 days ago

Problemaddict, you have hit the nail on its head! There you have put it succinctly.
AMNESIAN
Captive 7/1972 - 2/2001
 +1 / -0
Unprodigal Daughter
Unprodigal Daughter 4 days ago
I would never go now but I'll admit that, as a JW, there was something a little disconcerting about having the hall taken over once a year by ex-jw's, faders, non-jw relatives, unbelieving husbands. All people happy living their own free lives, coming along to humour us, chatting amoungst themselves. It definitely had a bit of an effect.
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago

Great opening post!
I agree sincerely!
It certainly creates "cognitive dissonance" in the minds of once close "friends" as they try to reconcile why their former "spiritually strong" associate has taken the dignified steps they have...of cutting off association.
It makes them ask themselves "why would so and so who was SO STRONG take such a drastic step?"
Perhaps they will also be prompted to research facts....
 
oppostate
oppostate 3 days ago
Just attend and partake. After the emblems have gone by, get up and leave while the elder dude's still yappin' at the podium.
 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 3 days ago
Yeah, that would sure create a stir,lol.
 
Lostwun
Lostwun 3 days ago

will be looking forward to my pre-arranged massage therapy visit on that night. while i'm being rubbed and catered, the jw's and all there fanaticism will be the last thing on my mind.
OOPS BORG YOU LOST-WUN!
 +2 / -0
fukitol
fukitol 3 days ago

GREAT POST!
Can't agree enough!
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 3 days ago
The last time I went I ate and drank mostly out of spite but also I knew what the Bible writers we're implying. So yes if your going to go eat and drink as a protest, otherwise going isn't doing anyone any good.
 
James Jack
James Jack 3 days ago
Can you make your point simple. I am lost with a play on words. What point are you trying to make?
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 3 days ago

I have my own way to reject Jesus: Directly. No pretending to accept that thing by being there. Rather, I simply deny Jesus even existed and assign the role of the Christ to the sun. And, even if Jesus did exist, it would be nothing more than a communist scumbag.
At least the sun doesn't care if you wear Bermuda shorts, short sleeve non-dress shirts, sneakers or sandals, and pants that are a little tight around the private areas. It also doesn't care if you listen to some rap music, or hard rock (such as Led Zeppelin). You will never hear the sun complain because you view a film or video game as fun. Or complain because you spent money on that new Pokemon X game and a Nintendo 3DS to play it on, when children are forced to donate their ice cream money. Or, for that matter, the sun will never guilt you into donating your ice cream money.

 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

I walked away from the cult the Meeting after the Memorial in 2008. We always celebrate that date every year.
This year it falls on .............. The Memorial Date, March 23rd !
We will be able to go out and celebrate in the sure knowledge that no JW's will frequent the same restaurant, of course, we shall leave early enough, just in case they turn up after they have rejected Jesus.
 

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http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5727734969925632/memorial-non-attendance-single-most-impactful-ttatt-witness-jw-friends-family





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cofty
36
Like Father, Like Son
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
when faced with awkward questions about the morality of god many christians respond by distancing themselves from the old testament and focusing on "gentle jesus meek and mild" of the new testament.. for bible-believing christians this is intellectually dishonest.. according to christian dogma jesus was the god of abraham isaac and jacob.

the logos, the alpha and omega who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever.".

he claimed that "he that has seen me has seen the father" and that "i and the father are one".. in short, christians assert that jesus is almighty god from all eternity.. it therefore follows that jesus was the god who ordered the nation of israel to take slaves as inheritable possessions.

OneGenTwoGroups
Anders Andersen
cofty
2 days ago
LaurenM
12
The Way JW Females Act
by LaurenM in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
the more i interact with non-jw men and women the more i notice that i still behave like a jw woman.

when i interact with people (men especially) i find myself being super submissive and docile.

acting like i don't have a brain and can't make decisions on my own.

Phaedra
LaurenM
Vidiot
3 days ago
SonoftheTrinity
6
JW Rumspringa
by SonoftheTrinity in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
are jehovah's witnesses on their way to practicing amish style rumspringa?

basically pushing young people out into the world and seeing who comes back with their faith intact.

after so many generations of discouraging education, it seems like an easy way to ensure that there are some educated born-ins.

prologos
wannaexit
Vidiot
3 days ago
AMNESIANO
17
Memorial Non-Attendance: The Single Most Impactful TTATT Witness to JW Friends & Family
by AMNESIANO in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
note: the following is submitted in full recognition of and with compassion and due respect for those who, due to personal circumstance, feel they are unable to employ this powerful strategy.. ---.

anyone who has awakened to ttatt and has conscientiously left the organization--especially a once-prominent, highly-regarded, studious true-believer from a celebrated multi-generational tribe of jws-- after decades of devout, high-profile "serve-us," who continues to put in an annual appearance at the memorial thoroughly subverts and undermines, by this one act, any hope s/he may entertain that his/her departure will stir family or former friends to question the whole watchtower bamboozle.

by this one concession s/he assigns him-/herself by every single jw to their handy and dismissive purgatory: the "spiritually-weak.".

James Jack
WTWizard
Phizzy
3 days ago
cofty
18
Evolution is a Fact #27 - Monkeys, Typewriters, Shakespeare, 747s etc.
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
most creationist arguments can be summarised as "complexity, complexity, complexity - therefore god".

we have all heard the illustrations about the odds of (insert favourite example) evolving, being less than 10,000 monkeys typing macbeth by pure chance.

evolution is not like that.

Fisherman
cofty
Fisherman
2 days ago
pleaseresearch
5
I can't just walk away, I need to keep reinforcing what I did was right (Leaving the org)
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
when i speak to my mum about things, she says why do you keep looking on the internet and news etc... why don't you just live your life and forget what you learned growing up.. maybe i was so so indoctrinated as a child that even though i have woken up and learnt ttatt, i still need to keep up to date with new findings from ex and fellow brothers and sisters.

listening to their testimony about why they left.. this was to me and all of you i'm sure, the truth.

so to finally wake up is absolutely massive.

Clearview
Simon
Vidiot
3 days ago
pleaseresearch
10
I can't just walk away, I need to keep reinforcing what I did was right (Leaving the org)
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
when i speak to my mum about things, she says why do you keep looking on the internet and news etc... why don't you just live your life and forget what you learned growing up.. maybe i was so so indoctrinated as a child that even though i have woken up and learnt ttatt, i still need to keep up to date with new findings from ex and fellow brothers and sisters.

listening to their testimony about why they left.. this was to me and all of you i'm sure, the truth.

so to finally wake up is absolutely massive.

FayeDunaway
Ucantnome
stuckinarut2
4 days ago
Atlantis
2
2 Videos If You Want Them!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
some videos that just came in if you want them... you became so beloved to us.. .. http://we.tl/9parpjipfz.

.. new instruction video.

.. http://we.tl/bklkzuavfs.

RaulPereira
Beth Sarim
2 days ago
Coded Logic
13
Fleecing the Flock
by Coded Logic in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 4 days ago
at the last assembly i attended in 2005 the cost was $11,000 per day in yuba city (just over two hours away from our circuit).

this always seemed a bit high for a facility that was built on donated land and whose construction loan had been paid off for 20 years.. i just looked up the cost to rent the redding civic center, which is just as nice if not nicer and a whole lot closer for our circuit, and it only costs $2,500 a day plus $250 for consumables (parking included).

if it would save the brother's and sister's $8,250 a day and they could have the assembly locally why wouldn't they do it?.

Beth Sarim
freemindfade
Athanasius
2 days ago
James Mixon
5
Legal action against a science teacher with pictures of JC in his class.
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
azusa ca.

the aclu has threatened legal action against the azusa school district over a high.

school science teacher's "regular endorsement of religion in the classroom.

James Mixon
LoveUniHateExams
JWdaughter
4 days ago
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