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Im a mormon
by deservingone26 4 years ago 55 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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deservingone26
deservingone26 4 years ago

Im a mormon now and have been one for the last 3 months. at first i really liked it but now I am starting to have 2nd thoughts, I grew up as a jehovahs witness and was disfellowshiped at 19 i really started to look for a new church in july of this year. I started out in a christian church which i really liked but i didnt understand the jesus as god thing/trinity. While going to church i started to talk with the missionaries, they showed me the book of mormon and i did their steps of pray before you read it and then ask god if it was true, i really started to get this great feeling and it was a feeling that i would get while going to church but i felt it really strong when i started investigate the church and when reading the BOM so after 4 weeks of meeting with the missionaries just about everyday i got baptized. after i got baptized i really felt the feeling more then ever and for about a month i was confident about my decision but after about a month i started having doubts and really started learning things that i didnt really know before joining. I didnt truly believe in the whole until 1978 blacks couldnt have the priesthood thing but i learned that was true and that joseph smith had lots of wives, i still dont know if that is true. To be honest i really thought the religion was great and was planning on going on a mission in a year from now but while trying to tell others about my religion i find it very hard to testify that joseph smith is a prophet and that he spoke to god and jesus and that has made me take a step back and for the last 2 weeks i have skipped church I dont know what to do anymore. I can say that the last 3 months have been great and i have stopped drinking alcohol and stoped drugs and lost about 35lbs but again i am at this point of not knowing what to do. I dont really want to be a mormon anymore cuse i dont really believe that what they believe is true its sounds really nice though and it answers a lot of questions that people might have as to what are purpose is in life but is it true? and what is this feeling that i am getting? can anyone relate to my story?

leavingwt
leavingwt 4 years ago

Please read Steve Hassan's first book, 'Combatting Cult Mind Control', at your earliest convenience. It's available as a used paperback on Amazon for less than eight bucks.

sizemik
sizemik 4 years ago

after i got baptized i really felt the feeling more then ever and for about a month i was confident about my decision but after about a month i started having doubts and really started learning things that i didnt really know before joining.
As a born-in JW you haven't experienced the conversion process. What you describe in your OP is almost exactly what I experienced converting to JWism. Unfortunately you're having an "out of the frying pan" experience.
Learn from it by researching as LWT suggests . . . and take your time with it.

mouthy
mouthy 4 years ago

I think anyone that has been in a religion that teaches
the way the Mormons .JW,so many others do that follow earthy
mans orders are under mind control....I believe we are able to
search ,think,& I do believe pray( as I still think the world
shows we have a Creator) Examine the religion we are looking
into thoughly before we commit....So dont feel bad, I was a JW
for over 25 yrs, studied other religions ,looking for a group to
follow, I have now come to the conclusion.NO BODY know it all
so I have come to the place where I believe all Jesus said was
interesting,To love one another ,pray for our enemies, Ask for
leading ,guiding, directing, ....I dont have to follow anyone now.
Of course I may be wrong, But it helps me get through these tough times

ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

YEEEEESSSS, Joseph Smith had lots of wives.... As did Brigham Young, and many other of the Mormon "founding fathers"...
And while we're on the subject, I've often marveled at the fact that the Mormons could have as many wives as they wanted, whereas the Muslims [who aren't exactly pro-Equal Rights, either...] could only have FOUR wives... That is, if they were being OBEDIENT to the word of Muhammed...
Hypocrisy seems to exist in all religions..
You might want to read this book - written in the late 1800's, by a woman forced into a Mormon marriage. Her account of life as a Mormon wife was a major factor in the United States government's legislation to outlaw polygamy... (the REAL United States government, not the usurping upstart that Joseph Smith tried to set up)...
http://www.archive.org/stream/wifenoorstoryofl00youniala#page/n3/mode/2up
And while we're on the subject of Joseph Smith...
Were you aware that two very common expressions used in the 1800's to describe CON MEN and TRICKSTERS were, "He pulled a rabbit out of his hat", and "He's talking through his hat"...
You might want to read some secular analyses of the psychology of "con-men", too... See if you can spot any similarities between current understanding of how a "confidence" man's mind works, and the mentality of Joseph Smith...
And take another look at the name of the main Mormon "angel" - "Moroni"....
Or, 'Moron - I'
Con artists like to flaunt their cons right under the noses of their victims... It makes the con-artist feel superior...
Zid

InterestedOne
InterestedOne 4 years ago

what is this feeling that i am getting?
Back when I believed Christianity (of the born-again, slightly charismatic type), I would get an amazing feeling in my chest. I figured it was something special about the Christian religion and that I was experiencing the Holy Spirit. Then I read a poem by Yeats that had nothing to do with Christianity and got the same feeling. I don't think Mormons have a monopoly on those feelings. I think it's part of being human. Perhaps it's the same sort of thing as getting chills upon hearing an amazing piece of music or a great speech.
Don't let cultic groups hijack things that are simply part of our humanity, whether it's hugs, warmth, love, music, or good feelings in the heart.

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Well Deserving,
Eight months ago you told us you were going back to the JW cult. I guess that was around April/May. Then in July you were attending a Christian Church. Then you studied with Mormon missionaries and within one month you were baptized. Now after only a month, you want to leave that.
Have you considered therapy? It could be helpful.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/207720/1/the-other-side-of-my-story-and-why-im-going-back

deservingone26
deservingone26 4 years ago

thanks for pointing that all out to me Newchapter you are very helpful! and its been 3 months of me being a mormon that i decided that im not sure if i wanted to be a mormon. and yes i have considered therapy but i just dont see how that will help it will just be me throwing more of my money away and them putting me on pills doctors already say im bi polar and wanted to prescribe me to pills so how is therapy honestly going to help. I dont know i just wanted to see if anyone else could relate to my story and had some good advice not someone getting on here and saying im crazy but thanks and i will try to look into some of your other suggestions.

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Well, if you are bipolar (why did you pick that diagnosis?) it could mean you really do need help. And in that case, throwing pills at you may be just the thing---I don't know----a doctor would. I'm not saying you are crazy, I'm saying that the little I've seen of your history, you are erratic. It wasn't meant to be an insult---it was meant to be good advice. See a doctor. Therapy may help. Think about it.
NC

moshe
moshe 4 years ago

The Mormon religion is not for southerners- due to that danged ( sweaty) secret underwear they wear-





ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Ruh, Roh!! Bi-polar???
BOTH of my parents were bi-polar - though I do prefer the older terminology - "Manic-Depressive"... It's SO much more descriptive!!!
If you need medication to control that situation, you would do well to use it...
Might look into some holistic treatments to ASSIST the medical solution, too...
Zid

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

oops, just reread that post. The doctors have already SAID you were bipolar. Got it. Well, you have some decisions to make. If the doctor says you are bipolar, and we say you are erratic, maybe there is something to it.
NC

deservingone26
deservingone26 4 years ago

nope i will never take medications like those EVER! so good night yall

jwfacts
jwfacts 4 years ago

JW's and Mormons have extremely similar belief systems, background and indoctrination techniques. If you left the JW's and don't believe they have the truth, then you should be feeling the same concern about Mormons. High control religions can help with overcoming addictions, but leaving doesn't mean you have to go back to them.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/episodes/s07e12-all-about-mormons contains a great summary of Mormon history, and looked at through SouthPark eyes should help you understand just how ludicrous the teachings are to an outsider.
Faith is accepting things that cannot be proven, such as God and an afterlife. As nice as it is to find a human leader to tell you all the answers, at some point you may need to accept that no one actually knows, and that it is not necessary to know.
If you are bipolar, concentrate on things like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. That is a simple but scientifically proven method of training your mind on how to move from negative thoughts to positive thoughts, and greatly can increase your levels of happiness.

sizemik
sizemik 4 years ago

nope i will never take medications like those EVER!
Are you prepared to explain why?

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

From what I've read, cognitive therapy really helps with the lows, but the highs are another matter. Still, a doctor would know best.
NC

Quarterback
Quarterback 4 years ago

Hi Deserving,
Thanks for posting your experience with us. In answer to your question, I have seen many go through those feelings that you have explained in your conversion steps as a Mormon.
These feelings usually come to us sometimes triggered by the attention that your are getting from meeting new friends. Sometimes receiving their acceptance, encouragment, cheering us on has a enjoyable effect. It's sometimes called the honeymoon stage. You know what happens next.
Next comes the bills, the loss of attention, the stories that people told you about are starting to seem true, reality....BOOM. The sparks start to dissapear. Oh, Oh. The realization that this is not paradise, this is another third world country.
But, Deserving....don't feel bad about taking meds. Some have to take meds. Many of my friends take meds. I know they don't make you feel 100%, but they do help.

TTWSYF
TTWSYF 4 years ago

It does seem as though you DID go from one cult right to another. I have a book of Mormon and have read some of it and it just didn't seem to jive. There were many inconsistencies in my opinion and it just didn't follow through or make a lot of sense. It seemed as though I was reading parts of scriptures and unfinished parables.
Facinating though how Joseph Smith stated that because he fasted so often he was often weak and apparently that is why he felt ill working on his father's farm and then while heading back home from the fields, he stumbled and had the vision of the angel Moroni who gave him the sacred golden plates that only he and six[? I think] witnesses attest to seeing as Satan wanted to destroy them [the golden, scripture plates I mean].
Like the Koran, the book of Mormon does state that every word from the Holy Scripures [old and new testament] are true and contain no falsehoods, but then both books state that Christ Jesus was not God [or Emanuel, which means God among us], but Jesus was more of a sign from God. Just a god, but not the God.
What ever your beliefs are is your business of course, but since you're posting and asking, the old [IS 9;6] and new [John 1;1] testaments clearly state that Jesus is God......Sorry...why did I have to add that?!?
Anywho-good luck [or God bless],
you gotta get outta another mess,
meant sincerely, not in jest,
signed,
The Truth Will Set You Free,
otherwise known as,
DC

Ding
Ding 4 years ago

Deservingone26,
Are warm, good feelings and a "burning bosom" after praying a prayer really a good test of truth? Many people have great inner feelings about their religions and are firmly convinced that they have the truth, yet those religions contradict each other. I know a lot of JWs who truly FEEL that the WTS is God's organization and don't want to have those feelings disturbed by looking at unpleasant facts.
I'm glad you are starting to question things. As with the WTS, please check into the actual history of the Mormon religion rather than just accepting the organization's official version.
Both the WTS and the Mormon church were founded by 19th century Americans who claimed that God had called them to be his messenger in the last days and that what they founded or restored is the only true Christian religion.
When they died, the organizations that they founded split, and their most successful successors (Joseph Rutherford and Brigham Young) were the ones who took the organization the farthest away from what the founders themselves taught.
Joseph Smith taught that the Garden of Eden was really located in Missouri! According to Mormon teachings the apostle John never died and is still on earth somewhere, as are three (ancient) disciples of a man called Nephi. Of course, that is pretty bizarre but impossible to disprove; neverthess, if you are going to be a Mormon you are supposed to believe it. Supposedly all sorts of OT type epic wars took place in New York State, of which there is no archaeological evidence at all.
I have asked Mormon missionaries how there could have been a total apostasy of Christ's church (as Joseph Smith claimed) with these 3 ancient apostles/evangelists always around and why Joseph Smith wasn't counseled by Moroni to find them and submit to their authority. I've also asked why the Mormon church has no contact with them. I've never gotten an answer. In my mind it's similar to asking a JW why Russell started his own organization rather than joining up with "God's visible organization" (which has supposedly always existed since the first century) and submitting to its authority. The teachings don't match the reality.
Like the Bible, the Book of Mormon says that God is unchangeable. Yet later Mormon writings say that God was once a man on some other planet (Kolob, I believe, wherever that is) and that "as man now is God once was; as God now is, man may become." Mormons believe this. I have had several Mormon missionaries come to my home and tell me that they expect to be gods of their own planets some day.
For those who are interested in a detailed critical examination of Mormon theology, I recommend Walter Martin's book, "The Maze of Mormonism."

ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

"doctors already say im bi polar ..."
Ironically, years after I was beaten/bullied into the JW cult, I found out that bi-polar people tend to be strongly drawn to the more extreme sects - and cults....
Due to the emotional swings, they often mistake a "manic" "high", as a sign that "god" is "present"... Then, when in the "depressive" stage, they will tend to cling to ANY hope of an "instant" cure, no matter how illogical or unreasonable the claims of the sect/cult... They also can mistake the "depressive" stage as "opression", frequently of a "demonic" nature...
I watched my idiot father go thru decades of frequent hospitalization and electro-shock therapy, all the while he DESPERATELY clung to that fantastical idea of a "magical paradise" in which everyone would be suddenly "fixed"...
Served him right, for hitting, kicking and insulting me...
Zid


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Im a mormon
by deservingone26 4 years ago 55 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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cptkirk
cptkirk 4 years ago

opiate of the masses.

-karl marx

Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 4 years ago

Sounds to me that you may be using religion as a crutch too.
You can achieve the same results, ie; health, weight loss, self esteem etc by learning coping techniques for whatever triggers you.
Coming from a JW background i'm not at all surprised you couldn't find a conventional church to fit, so you found the next best thing, one almost like the JWs. Leaving them, i wouldn't be at all surprised to find you with the seventh day adventists or Christadelphians either.
You are looking for a warm fuzzy familiar feeling from religion.
You won't find it. Good on you for looking for answers...you are just looking in the wrong places.
Oz

free2beme
free2beme 4 years ago

Of course, my first thought is. Have you married several woman and if so, how is a marriage threesome. In all seriousness though, going from JW to Mormon is like jumping from one pile of crap to another, only because the corn was a little more noticable and not as digested.

AvocadoJake
AvocadoJake 4 years ago

The Mormon system of belief must be helping, if you have stopped drinking, lost weight, they must be doing something right. With the newness of being a Mormon newbie coming to an end, are you not receiving the accolades and attention the new recruits are use to? You said, you are at a turning point, is the desire to drink coming back? For "leavingWt", I don't think a book written by anyone, is going to help someone who is use to self medicating with alchoholic beverages or chasing the religion de jour. She or He who does not take their medications (I know they make you feel dead, rob you of creative energy, or add weight gain with perpetual feelings of fatigue.) will not behave in a rational manner, but what is rational? Have you tried Cognitive Therapy, if so, did it help you at all? Those who use alchohol to deal with bi-polar and hypo-mania, schizophrenia end up very badly.
Karl Marx wrote:



Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. "

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

dogisgod
dogisgod 4 years ago

You know what? there are many kinds of meds and many different levels of being bi-polar. I have had problems with depression and so I do take anti depression meds. They totally even me out. When I have stopped for what ever reason my feelings become really...I don't know...elliptical. I HAVE TO TAKE THEM and I know it. I know a lot of people who are bi-polar. Some are dilusional which involve really strong meds. there are side effects but I personally SEE with them that their lives are better functioning than without. they just don't realize it because they are so chemically imbalanced. the crazy becomes their norm. Personally if you are truely bi-polar (probably not have been most of your life) there are many different modalities to look at. I think the last one or even don't put it on the list would be to be involved in religion. that can really throw you off... for ever. I don't know how old you are or when you were diagnosed but it's not the end of the world. It's just another thing to deal with...like having to wear glasses to see. You want to wander around blind because you refuse to accept you cant see? It's your choice but just go slow and gather information. Invest and advocate in yourself.

dm6
dm6 4 years ago

Hi Ding, i was waiting to see your post pop up, the intelligent wise man that you are. Very nicely worded post i must say.
I have had several Mormon missionaries come to my home and tell me that they expect to be gods of their own planets some day.
lol this line did make me chuckle also.

jonathan dough
jonathan dough 4 years ago




I started out in a christian church which i really liked but i didnt understand the jesus as god thing/trinity.
You jumped from one cult to another. Mormons are as crazy as JWs in their theology; truly amazing heresy.
The Trinity and the Jesus as God thing you speak of should not trip you up because it is easy to understand, sort of, and is very logical. Really. 2 billion Christians aren't wrong on this. Just take your time and read it through and think about it. It's logical and scriptural, and it is reasonable for believers to have faith in the trinity. The problem is that you have been mislead into believing what the trinity doctrine teaches; greatly mislead. Throw away the lies and it will start to fall into place.

It is all right here:
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

designs
designs 4 years ago

2 Billion christians are wrong godrulz, ask a Rabbi what 'One God' means, it is different from what the RCC defines 'one god' to mean.
Revisionists ssssshh.

Found Sheep
Found Sheep 4 years ago

As said therapy, read Steven Hassen....
I knew a JW that was raised Mormon. I guess if you don't get the cult program out of you it's easy to run from one to the other
Good luck in your quest in life
FS

Qcmbr
Qcmbr 4 years ago

Hi Deserving - I'm LDS but an atheist.
I think you could do with looking at this pragmatically. It sounds like you had a very turbulent life until you converted. Seems like you now have a lot better prospects ahead. If you can stomach the dogma but you are seeing positive benefits in your life that you may lose if you stop going then maybe you need to keep going - for a little while - and this site will be of great support and use to you:http://forum.newordermormon.org/ I used to post there as TracerBullet.
If you want to know why the Mormons are not correct from a purely LDS pov (i.e. not even addressing whether xianity itself is founded on any kind of truth) then this is an excellent comparison of what you will be taught and what the real history is: http://mormonthink.com/
If you want to go even further down the rabbit hole then stay here and watch some of the debates and you can hopefully make a more informed decision regarding brands of faith, atheism and a more nuanced agnosticism. Stuff that - stay here anyway :smile:
As for medical stuff - always seek medical professionals and don't be afraid of medicine. My only advice is be self aware enough not to make life changing decisons when at an extreme point and if you can't trust yourself not to, get a great friend who can sit through tough days. In many ways the LDS church will be able to help here (as long as guilt , worthiness and the costs of a calling aren't triggers!)
The warm fuzzy feeling needs addressing but indulge me as I set the scene. I was as converted as I could be , served a mission, gave tear inducing talks that people would come and thank me for, was temple married, Elder's Quorum President , I was on the short list to be Bishop etc. I was everything the church expected me to be and I had that incredible feeling of the spirit in my heart many times. I've even had a more powerful conversion event when I was a teenager. I was sold (and I'll always be a cultural mormon - some things are just to good to throw away) and I espoused many of the ideas you'll see from our more committed christians on this board.
Several things triggered my search for the truth but one of them was that despite all my sincerity, my heartfelt prayers, the hours I committed to god nothing ever happened that was supernatural. No genuine healings, no revelations, no great wisdom, no manifestations of a divine nature at all. In my quest to remedy this and make myself a more useful tool in god's hand I offered him my unbelief, in other words I told god that I would seek him out , that I was ready to be found but that I would admit his non existence if at the end of my journey there was still silence. Thus I am an atheist.
As part of that journey I wanted to know what those incredible emotional surges were, those sublime feelings of peace and fulfillment and why they seemed so particularly wedded to the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the LDS version of God and Jesus. I found the answers in neurological studies. As deflating as that seems I researched about how the brain works, how it generates perception from the stimuli it receives and most importantly how we can generate sensations by expectation and certain mental states. The brain is an awe inspiring machine that works in harmony with the body to generate our consciousness and place in this world. That it can create sensations that seem otherworldy, that can feel like external divine intuition or can even be manifest as inner voices that can actually be heard is an attribute of the wonder of consciousness, sadly it isn't a marker of reality or truth. I can still generate those feelings despite now being an ardent atheist.
i hope this helps in some small way - PM me if you want to discuss anything less publically or to forward gold bullion certificates :smile:
Trust yourself.

Terry
Terry 4 years ago

When you've completely FILLED every crevice of your life with a religious obsession and then it is gone---the size of that hole is a vacuum of tremendous proportions!
How do you fill it? That god-shaped emptiness?

Try thinking for yourself for one year. No gurus. No authority figures. No inside information.
Read about real things; established science, non speculative history, philosophy.

Heal.
Like any wound, any sized gape like the god-sized hole will heal.

God swells up inside some people until they explode.

cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

I had a mormon girlfriend does that count?

Violia
Violia 4 years ago

Carrie Fisher ( princess Leia star wars) has recently come out as Bipolar and has a new book out about her treatment. I have seen her on Showtime doing stand up and she is so great. I will be buying that book. Might be worth a read. also, Patty Duke had the same problem and wrote a book about it too.
http://www.amazon.com/Shockaholic-Carrie-Fisher/dp/0743264827

ShadesofGrey
ShadesofGrey 4 years ago

About Jesus as God: Please look at these scriptures. Start here. Don't worry about the rest, okay?

whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 In order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.* 
 *1 John 2:23;John 5:23
The Lord, who has taken up your cause, and who gave you life in your mother's body, says, I am the Lord who makes all things; stretching out the heavens by myself, and giving the earth its limits; who was with me? Isaiah 44:24
But of the Son he says: You, Lord, at the first did put the earth on its base, and the heavens are the works of your hands. Hebrews 1:10

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isaiah 45:22,23

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:10;11

Also see Isaiah 40:10 and Revelation 1:8 compare with Revelation 22:12,13. Isaiah 43:10,11 compare to Revelation 7:10
Also see what Christians in the Bible had to say to Jesus: Acts 7:59; Revelation 22:20; John 20:28

Another thing that really helped me was researching the Living Water that Jesus spoke of to the Samaritan woman in John 4 and John 7:37. What did they need to do to receive the Spirit?

ShadesofGrey
ShadesofGrey 4 years ago

whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 In order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.* 
 *1 John 2:23;John 5:23
Start here. Don't worry about the rest, okay?
The Lord, who has taken up your cause, and who gave you life in your mother's body, says, I am the Lord who makes all things; stretching out the heavens by myself, and giving the earth its limits; who was with me? Isaiah 44:24
But of the Son he says: You, Lord, at the first did put the earth on its base, and the heavens are the works of your hands. Hebrews 1:10

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isaiah 45:22,23

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:10;11

Also see Isaiah 40:10 and Revelation 1:8 compare with Revelation 22:12,13.
Isaiah 43:10,11 compare to Revelation 7:10
Also see what Christians in the Bible had to say to Jesus: Acts 7:59; Revelation 22:20; John 20:28

Another thing that really helped me was researching the Living Water that Jesus spoke of to the Samaritan woman in John 4 and John 7:37. What did they need to do to receive the Spirit?

i_drank_the_wine
i_drank_the_wine 4 years ago

I agree with those that said to take your time, do some research, and feel things out. Try to take a look at things from all angles and find what works for you and what you consider to be real.
All the best to you!

i_drank_the_wine
i_drank_the_wine 4 years ago

Plus, if God does exist (might wanna research that too), I'm sure if he/she/they/it is worth loving/worshipping that he wouldn't be offended by someone investigating the best way to serve him/her/it/them.
My study after leaving the JW's made me into an Agnostic. I won't say Atheist, because I'm not 100% sure, just 99%, and I won't make the same mistake of having absolute beliefs when I've been wrong in life once already.

rebel8
rebel8 4 years ago

joseph smith had lots of wives, i still dont know if that is true
My understanding from talking about this with ex-Mormons is it is verified on ancestry.com, their own site.
There is also proof there about some of the wives having multiple husbands back in the day.
i have stopped drinking alcohol and stoped drugs and lost about 35lbs but again i am at this point of not knowing what to do. I dont really want to be a mormon anymore cuse i dont really believe that what they believe is true its sounds really nice though and it answers a lot of questions that people might have as to what are purpose is in life but is it true?
Keep doing the positive things and stop doing the things that are making you uncomfortable. Sometimes we should listen to our gut; this is one of those times.
You don't have to "be" anything, you know? You don't have to belong to any religion.
and what is this feeling that i am getting? can anyone relate to my story?
Yes, it's rebound religion. Instead of trying to fill the void jwism left you, try to figure out why the void aches you and work on that. Get busy living a life worth living!

PS--here's something else you might be interested in.

Ding
Ding 4 years ago

It's my understanding that Mormonism considers Jesus to be Jehovah and the Father to be a separate God named Elohim. They also teach that God the Father has a physical body. Very confusing, especially to someone with a JW background.

ShadesofGrey
ShadesofGrey 4 years ago

Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, he beginning and the end.” 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.
Revelation 1:5-17 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man,
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Revelation 4:2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, and day and night they never cease to say,

“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”

Be strong in the Grace that is in Christ Jesus,
Shades


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Topic Summary
im a mormon now and have been one for the last 3 months.
at first i really liked it but now i am starting to have 2nd thoughts, i grew up as a jehovahs witness and was disfellowshiped at 19 i really started to look for a new church in july of this year.
i started out in a christian church which i really liked but i didnt understand the jesus as god thing/trinity.




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Im a mormon
by deservingone26 4 years ago 55 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

2 Billion christians are wrong godrulz
WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. I stopped short here. Designs, are you saying that godrulz is back on the board???
AND, is godrulz trying to convert someone who has admitted to being bipolar and off medication?
NC

strymeckirules
strymeckirules 4 years ago

have you actually read a bible all the way through?
did you read to understand and learn, or just to say you read it?
whay i ask is if you had read the warnings about false prophets in the bible, you would have no problem figuring this one out for yourself.
remember, they will become angels of light to decieve you. question everything and demand a reasonable logical answer.
read and understand what the ancient scrolls have to say.
the god of heaven does not live in man made temples.
RESEARCH is the key to the answers you seek.
i just hope you have the diligence to do the research. most get lazy....and never fix the situation they are in.

TTWSYF
TTWSYF 4 years ago

Great posts by all. Fiery, informative and funny per the norm. I agree Shades. The scriptural evidence equating Jesus Christ with God [obviously seperate from the Father] is overwhelming. Only diehard unitarians will continue to deny what the scriptures actually say. It's sad to see that they always address God's oneness and never acknowledge the scriptural truths written for all to read.
IE - My friend DESIGNS posted 2 Billion christians are wrong godrulz, ask a Rabbi what 'One God' means, it is different from what the RCC defines 'one god' to mean.
Revisionists ssssshh.
Designs, Designs, Designs, Been reading the 'should you believe in the trinity' booklet again. Haven't you learned that booklet is full of lying garbage? Sheese. I know that I've pointed this out to you on other occassions, perhaps you had forgotten, but because you are a 'student' I shall try to explain to you again in laymans' terms. In the Hebrew language [the language of the Old Testament] there are 2 words for one. The word 'yachid' refers to a singular one meaning only one. The other word for one in Hebrew is 'echad' wich means a compound or unified one. Examples in the scriptures include 'evening and morning becoming one ['echad] day, husband and wife becoming one ['echad] flesh and the Lord God is one ['echad] God.
Of course, the word Trinity is not present, but God being one [yachid] singular is also non-existant in the OT.
Respectfully,
DC

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Well I'm atheist most days, agnostic others, but I go to the Unitarian Universalist church---Unitarian being a perjorative term given to them for not believing that Jesus was God, so they adopted it. But here is the thing that confuses me----What does the Trinity brochure have to do with it? Is that the ONLY way anyone on this board can come to the conclusion that Trinity is not a bible teaching---even if they don't believe in the authority of that bible?
Sheesh. It get's so old hearing others accuse posters of still being under the control of the cult they escaped. Plenty of people don't believe in the trinity.
NC

skeeter1
skeeter1 4 years ago

I don't know much about Mormons.
I do know that they were highly influential in trying to make polygamy protected religious behavior under Utah's law. They fought all the way to the US Supreme Court in Reynolds v. US in the 1800s. It's a super famous case where the Supreme Court said that states can regulate religious behavior (i.e. different from religious belief). After that case, the Morons switched to believing in polygamy (in heaven), but not actually officially practicing it in the U.S. However, break-away sects do partake in polygamy. you should read Reynolds and its commentary.
I also know that ex-Mormons think it's a cult. Mormons follow the BITE model of mind control. Perhaps you should google, "BITE model and Mormons" and "BITE model for Jehovah's Witnesses". The two "religions" are very similar; and you may be confused that any religion that follows a BITE model seems more real to you (just like abused women tend to gravitate towards abusive men).

TTWSYF
TTWSYF 4 years ago

New Chapter you need not believe the scriptures, but you need not also to deny what is written and ignore it. Being a unitarian you probably [like many JWs] accept only portions of the scriptures or perhaps there are portions that you do not accept would be a more accurate statement.
Often people post about what Jews or Muslims or Mormons believe and try to equate that with Christendom. Of course it doesn't equate. Ask Christians about Christianity, not Jews or Mormons or Muslims.
You don;t go to a dentist for broken limbs, right?

ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

"Often people post about what Jews or Muslims or Mormons believe and try to equate that with Christendom..." TTWSYF
Aaaarrrrgh.... nonactive facepalm
The Middle-Eastern THREE...
ALL THREE of those groups of religions ORIGINATED IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ARE BASED UPON THE WORSHIP OF MIDDLE EASTERN GODS...
The only difference between Christianity and the other two, is that Christianity incorporated a NUMBER of PAGAN Greco-Roman ideas into the Jewish MIDDLE-EASTERN mythology/theology...
Zid

tec
tec 4 years ago



It get's so old hearing others accuse posters of still being under the control of the cult they escaped. Plenty of people don't believe in the trinity.
I am one of those who doesn't believe in it. I didn't believe in it before the witnesses (though I can honestly say that I did not even know such a teaching ex isted); I didn't believe in it after the witnesses.
I just honestly don't see it. I would never have come to it; reading the bible on my own. It would have had to be taught to me. I'd have wondered at some passages that grant the same titles to Christ as to God, (as I did) and researched reasons for that. (as I also did)... but I can't say that I would have thought... oh, Jesus IS God... or given that any credence, unless someone else gave me that idea.
But in either case; I look to Christ to see God. No one goes to the Father, other than through the Son.
Peace,
Tammy

jwfacts
jwfacts 4 years ago

2 Billion christians are wrong godrulz, ask a Rabbi what 'One God' means, it is different from what the RCC defines 'one god' to mean.
Revisionists ssssshh.
Why would a Rabbi's concept of the nature of God be any more reliable than a Catholic Scholars concept, or for that matter a leader of the Watchtower or Mormon Sects. It is all just human opinions.

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Being a unitarian you probably [like many JWs] accept only portions of the scriptures or perhaps there are portions that you do not accept would be a more accurate statement.
I don't accept it as the word of god at all. My point was simply that many people other than those who read the Trinity brochure don't believe in it. Unitarians, historically, are some of them. Today, since they are Unitarian Universalists they have many varied beliefs. Just as JWF says, it's ALL human opinion and there is no need to tell people that don't see it YOUR way that they are ignoring or dismissing or not accepting. That is how they see it, which is just as valid as how you see it.
TEC is a firm believer, and she doesn't believe in it. Are we going to question her faith or sincerity in reading the bible? The council of Nicea did actually happen and Constatine DID have a say in this doctrine---and he was a pagan that worshipped many gods and didn't understand all of the issues at hand. This is not only a JW theory, this is what I learned in my college history class.
NC

NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

And a big LOL for comparing Unitarians to JW's.

Qcmbr
Qcmbr 4 years ago

Joseph Smith did not just practise polygamy ( which is a biblical concept condoned by god ) he practised polyandry, marrying women already married ( he sent some husbands on missions then married their wives) and perhaps most disgustingly, from a modern viewpoint, had sex with young teenagers.
Emme, his first wife, was kept in the dark, was understandably distraught and furious ( she kicked out at least one of his partners who he'd married in secret ) and so Joseph responded with a revelation to keep her in her place.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to a prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, a receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been a faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and a cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be b destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
Mormon polyandry had another terrible consequence, since pure Mormonism in its untempered 1800s form involved rigid Priesthood hierarchies, your Priesthood leader could receive a revelation and take your wife and children as his own. So the worst thing you could do in Utah was marry a beautiful young woman while a lowly priesthood holder as you could find yourself a cast off if someone like Brigham Young noticed your wife at one of the dances or other social events. If you decided to fight the situation you would be found guilty of some sin and cast out or you could just knuckle down and let your wife and children go.
Sick.

ShadesofGrey
ShadesofGrey 4 years ago

I accept that God is the Holy Spirit, God is the Father and God is Jesus, but I don't know about accepting the Trinity doctrine, as there are more specifics in there that I am not so sure about.

tec
tec 4 years ago

We all understand according to our limitations and/or capabilities; our strengths and/or our weaknesses.
But if He has accepted us, faults and weaknesses and all, then no one else has the right (and especially not the ability) to say that we are rejected, or not 'true' christians; or whatever.
The spirit speaks much louder than words/doctrines.
Peace,
Tammy

ShadesofGrey
ShadesofGrey 4 years ago





ShadesofGrey
ShadesofGrey 4 years ago

Jeremiah 23:23 I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. (GNT)


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Topic Summary
im a mormon now and have been one for the last 3 months.
at first i really liked it but now i am starting to have 2nd thoughts, i grew up as a jehovahs witness and was disfellowshiped at 19 i really started to look for a new church in july of this year.
i started out in a christian church which i really liked but i didnt understand the jesus as god thing/trinity.




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by Captain Schmideo2 6 months ago
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Ex-jw, inactive mormon, and now what?
by olvidado 9 years ago 15 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

Hi everybody, after 4 years of having lurking through this forum (except one time that I asked an username and used it once),I have decided to participate in this. I am Spanish, I have been living in a small town in the north of Spain almos my whole life (except one year in Leicester-England), but currently I am lving in Germany. My story: I have been brought up in a catholic family, but the religion was never important in my familiy. It was just a matter of holidays and special events in church (baptisms, marriages, funerals and all that stuff). At 17 the Jehovahs Witnesses came to my door and I started to study with them. At 19 I was baptized in a District Convention. I was very sure that this was the truth and almost inmediately I started to pioneer, firtst auxiliary pioneer and, when I got a proper job, a regular pioneer. At 21, ministerial servant. After two years as a regular pioneer I gave up because of all the stress I had (working full-time, helping non-believing family who didnt support me, the tasks related to ms, etc). I went on being auxialiary pioneer almost regularly. I had several doubts about the organization, but I learnerd to pull them on the back of my mind and, on the surface, I was the perfect JW. When I was 31, I couldnt cope with the doubts anymore and decided first to give up being ministerial servant (january 2001) and later on attending meetings (I was regularly attending meetings until may 2001; then, I stopped completey and never went back, except for two weedings of friends). It was a relief for me, I didnt feel guilty for reading other stuff not controlled by the Watchtower Society. I read a lot about religions that year. In may 2002 I met the missionaries on the street. I started attending meetings in the Mormon Church and in august 2002 I did two things: I wrote my letter of disassociation and, two weeks later, I got baptized in the Mormon Church. After 4 years of being an active Mormon in my branch (teacher in Sunday school, counselor in the priesthood presidency - I dont know how to say this in English), several months ago I decided to leave this church again, but I dont feel I need to resign, just fade. Currently, I still attend some Sundays, while in Germany, but in august, when I will be back home in Spain, I think I will leave completely. Now I can say that I am agnostic, I tend to believe in Christ, I am very curious about him, but I am opened to any ideology. But I think that two organizations are enough and I dont want to belong to any organized religion anymore. I would like to study about religion more, I think it is a fascinating topic, but my "theocratic career" as a member of an organized religion has finished. Well, nice to talk to you and I hope that I will participate often in this forum.

fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 9 years ago

Hi olvidado, and welcome to the forum.
You have had an interesting theological life!
I'm an ex jw, but I have not been tempted to join another religion myself. 25 years as a jw was more than enough for me. Most of us on here are fading or ex jws, but there is at least one mormon.

Linda

olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

Thanks Linda for your welcome. Yes, I know that there was at least one mormon on the forum. Even if I belonged to these two organizations, I dont consider them as equal. To me, the Mormon church is really a "church", but the Watchtower society is more like a cult for me (that´s my oppinion). These last four years as a mormon I never felt compelled to avoid relationships with people out of the church, I felt encouraged to study my degree at university (something I would not have done if i stayed in JW), I wasnt asked to shun anybody, etc. Well, maybe if I was a mormon in Utah the things would be different, I dont know, but in Spain there is clearly a difference between the two groups. Thatis why I dont feel the need of asking to be removed from the Mormon church. Anyway, I am glad to be where I am today.

nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 9 years ago

Gracias for the telling of your story olvidado.
Time to live life, unfettered by the constraints of religion. Be here. Be now.
Deseandote much happiness and success as you continue your journey,
Nvr

olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

Thanks nvr for your welcome. I know that it is time to move on. Almost all my life I lived with the feelings of having answers to the great questions of life (where do we come from? what can we expect after death? etc.) provided by Watchtower Society or the Mormon Church. Now I have to learn to live with no answers at all. But at the moment I am happy of that. Even if I dont get these answers in this life, it is good to live and enjoy the things I have. I appreciate your words in "spanglish", but I know that the rule in this forum is to use English. After a whole life following rules, this small rule is not very difficult for me to obey. My English is not very good, but I will try to be as clear as possible. Thanks again nvr.

nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 9 years ago

but I know that the rule in this forum is to use English.
Oops! Sorry friend. I'm glad you're accepting of living without the answers. It can be, I know from personal experience, quite unsettling.
Nvr

olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

nvr, I didnt want to tell you off for using Spanish, it was not my intention. I think it was very kind of you using my language to make me feel comfortable in the forum. But one of the very first things I did after leaving JW was studying English and moving for one year to England and that is something I am very proud of, being able to communicate in a different language. If I knew kazajo? (is that the language spoken in Kazakhstan?) I would say something, but I dont know it at the moment. It is enough for me to struggle with Geman (the most difficult language in the world, I have to say).

nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 9 years ago

It is enough for me to struggle with Geman (the most difficult language in the world, I have to say).
I too would love to learn German. It is quite intimidating, to say the least. I applaud you for your excellent English. As you noted, my sprinkling of palabritas was purely intended to make you feel comfortable and welcome.
Nvr

Kaput
Kaput 9 years ago

Welcome, olvidado!
I would like to study about religion more, I think it is a fascinating topic, but my "theocratic career" as a member of an organized religion has finished.
Glad to hear that. After reading about your involvement with all these religions, I was beginning to feel you were a "sloooooow" learner. Looking forward to your posts.

poppers
poppers 9 years ago

Welcome olvidado. I am glad that you don't feel a need to jump into another religion after your prior experiences. Too many people have a strong need to define themselves according to some belief system and flail about in a panic when leaving their religion, and look for another to fill the void of their abandoned belief. So, now what? Discover the fullness of life without belief, the fullness that exists in this very moment, the only moment there is.

olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

"Too many people have a strong need to define themselves according to some belief system and flail about in a panic when leaving their religion, and look for another to fill the void of their abandoned belief." I think, in certain way, it is this what made me join the Mormon church. Even if I was just an inactive JW, all my frienships went from a lot to almost zero (I was a bad association, of course). Now I had lot of time to think. The stories you hear at the KH are about people who leave the truth and got involved in drugs, alcoholism and all that stuff. I was a bit worried about that, and I wanted to fill the void with something. And what did I find? the mormon church. In any way, I think my belonging to this church was like a kind of transition towards the "real world" (I never felt extremely attached to its teachings or to the people at church, even if I got to know some very nice people). But now I think this transition was finished and I can live with no absolute truth, just live in the way I think it is the best for me.

olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

And Ksput, it is true, I am a very sloooow learner, but I am the kind of person that, when I learn something, I do according to what I have learned.

IsaacJS2
IsaacJS2 9 years ago

olvidado, Welcome to the forum. My father's side of the family had some Mormon wannabes who never quite conformed to the standards. I keep hearing mixed opinions about them, though. I have often wondered how they compare to the WTS in terms of how controlling they are, and such. Since you are just thinking about leaving them, I guess you would say that they are far less controlling? Just curious about your opinion, especially since you are the first person I've spoken to that has been in both. BTW, I think your English is very good. :smile: I have never been able to get a handle on any other languages myself. IsaacJ

greendawn
greendawn 9 years ago

Welcome Olvidado, you went from one controlling cult to another so you had quite an adventure in your life. Which one do you think is the worst out of the two?

olvidado
olvidado 9 years ago

Nice to meet you Isaac. You ask me about how controlling they mormons are. Well I just can tell you about my experience. You have to take into account that I am from Spain and, although the main rules are the same in all the world, the situation is not the same in a place like Spain (where mormons ara a very small minority) as it is in other places like Utaht (where most people are members of the church). You have commandments to obey, you are expected to do things in the way you are told by the church, but (at least in Spain) I didnt feel watched by the leaders of the local branch of the church like I feel controlled by the elders in the Watchtower Society. I say again that the situation in Utah will likely be different. I tried to live according to the standars of the church (no caffe or alcohol, Sabbath day, tithing, etc) but I knew I could have cheated with these things without anyone realising. But from the beginning I felt something really different between the two groups. First, I remember a misionary speaking about the bad associations he had at school and how he changed and looked for good friends while in hidgh school. I said something like: "Ah, at high school you found friends who were members of the church". And he told me: "not, they were not members, but they were good boys". I asked something like "and what do your parents think about that?". And he said that they were OK, his friend went to his house and his mother was always kind with them. For me it was something strange. Used to the idea of JW that all the people outside the organization were bad associations, it was weird for me people in a church who had friends outside the church and there was no problem. (But I say again that this missionary was from California, where I suppose that they have a more "liberal" point of view). Another point that surprised me in the mormon church was when I got to know some people excomunicated. There was a family in my branch who always came with its daughter, about thirty years old. I never felt people dealing with her in a different way that with the other people in the branch. One day, several of us went to have dinner and this girl went with us. In the middle of the conversation, she said that she had to go out the restaurant because she had to smoke. As a member, you are supposed to not smoke and I asked somebody about this girl. They told me: "Oh, no problem. She is excomunicated". OOOhhhh, I couldnt believe. Somebody excomunicated from the church and you felt no difference in the way others dealt with her. As I said before, in other places with majority of mormons the things could have been different. Maybe the mothers wouldnt like their children playing with other children not members of the church, or mormons deal with excomunicated in a different way. In Spain it was different. But, of course, the JW in Spain avoid frienships outside the organization and shun members of the family (I still remember the elder in my circuit who was like a hero for everybody because he hadnt spoken to his disfellowshipped daughter for ten years even if they lived in the same town. And he was so proud of it!!!!) I heard once the president of the church encouraging the members of being friendly with other people. I read an article in a church magazine dealing with making friendships with people outside the church. As I said, there could be people in church shunning or avoiding not members, but at least the official position of the church was one of tolerance. I never saw that kind of articles in the Watchtower or Awake. That, for me, makes a great difference. Umm, this sounds a bit apologetic of the church, I dont want to sound like that. Maybe for somebody coming from a different background, the church can be controlling. But after my experience of almost 15 years of the supercontrolling Watchtower society, the mormon church was very relaxed in that way.

Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Welcome Olvidado. Thak you for sharing your interesting experiences with us. I hope you enjoy it here and find much benefit.
~Merry


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X-JW , X-Mormon & More OR: Around the World's Religions in 60 Years!
by Rod P 11 years ago 31 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw experiences
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Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Hi People!
I am new here, but started out on the topic of "High rates of depression in Org." There are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread. The other 2 posts will be pasted shortly, as they are part of a series of episodes that I am to complete on this new thread, since I do not want to get in the way of those who want to talk about "Depression in Org."
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I am an ex-JW. Worse, I left the JW's and became a Mormon, after about 4 years as a JW. When I joined the Mormons, I was immediately disfellowshipped by the JW's for apostasy. I then spent another 5 years or so trying to make a divided religious home function as a "normal" family unit. It cannot be done!
Being disfellowshipped, my wife and I were not allowed to discuss anything to do with religious matters. My wife told me that since I had abandoned my position of spiritual leadership in the home, that she would have to take my place.
Because I left the JW's, and because I married her in the JW faith, I felt sorry for her, and let her continue to carry on Bible studies with the kids (We had 3 daughters). I drove her to the kingdom hall so she could attend meetings, and the kids went with her. I got very angry once when we were driving down the street and came to a Church. Our oldest daughter spoke up and said "Daddy, that Church is bad!" I immediately reacted and told her "No! That Church is not bad!" Then I turned to my wife and said "If that is what the kids are being taught at the Kingdom Hall, then I am going to refuse to let them go there anymore!" She just tried to minimize it all by telling me that this is the kind of thing that kids just blurt out, and not to make a big deal out of it. It was at that point that I started to take the kids to the Mormon Church I was now attending, because I wanted them to be exposed to more than one point of view so that they could see that "Other Churches are not bad."
Looking back, I see this whole thing as two sincere persons trying to make the best of a bad situation. We were both being true to ourselves by following what we honestly believed was true. Yet we both became effectively the "mouthpieces" of the very religious organizations we were sincerely following. In other words, it was like two religous entities trying to operate in harmony under one roof, with the mother and father of that household representing and behaving in the context of those respective organizations. There is no such thing as compromise, or working things out. It was like an "immovable object up against an impenetrable force". The result is "an unimaginable explosion!" And that is what happened to the marriage, with an awful lot of depression on both sides.
One day my oldest daughter, who was in Grade One at the time, came home from school and laid on the living room carpet and stared off into space. I asked her what was bothering her and she said "Oh nothing. Just thinking." This happened after I found out that my wife had gone to the school (behind my back, I might add) and told the teacher that our daughter is not to participate in any school activities having to do with Halloween or Remembrance day or Christmas, etc., or the national anthem or saluting the flag, etc. When kids in her class tried to get her to join in with them even in things that had nothing to do with those things the JW's do not permit participation in, she would kind of "tune out" and sit there with a blank, cathartic stare, the same thing I was beginning to observe was happening at home. It was obvious she was in a state of deep depression.
I found out about this at the time of Parent-Teacher interviews. I dropped by the school to see the teacher just to see if our daughter was doing OK in school. When I found out about her behavior, resulting from her being told to stay out of all these things mentioned above, I told the teacher that I was now going to change the rules, and that our daughter would now become a full participant, and I would begin the process, as her father, of trying to positively teach her that it was OK to do so. I also met with her school psychologist (an anathema to JW's) and the school principal, where we discussed everything in detail. I told the Principal that I would be giving the School a written authorization for our daughter to participate in everything. When I went home and talked about this with my wife, she reacted with total anger that I went to the teacher without first telling her. I said I had just gone to the store for a loaf of bread, which was right by the school, and, being extremely busy at the time, just dropped by to see the teacher for five minutes, because we would probably miss the parent-teacher interview. The real issue, I felt, was that she went behind my back and put in place with the school some very serious and long-term rules without telling me, and that was far more serious than me talking with the teacher for a few minutes. Anyway, I wrote a letter to the school Principal giving him the authority. I showed it to my wife, and she then asked for a copy. I said "OK, but why?" She said "It's going to my lawyer." At that point I told her that I would give her a copy, but before I did I wanted to run it by the school legal department as to my wording, since this may well turn into a whole legal issue, with court cases and all.
I ended up in a meeting with the Superintendant of Schools, discussed everything at length, after which my letter was sent to their legal department. Three days later, the letter was given back to me with the advice that there was provision in the School Board by-laws for parents to opt their children out of certain school programs under religious grounds, but there was NO provision for opting a child INTO any school programs. I asked the question "Does my wife then have the upper hand and control over all this on legal grounds, while I have no way of doing anything." The answer was "I'm afraid so!" I then went home and told my wife of nine years, "Here is a copy of my letter that went to the School. You can take me to court if you want, and I will fight you with every ounce of my being over this, and you and I are through!" I frankly, had had enough! All that ever happened was that whatever tolerance I had showed over the years, she accepted with appreciation, but do not expect her to reciprocate. Why? Because JW's are the one right religion on the planet earth, and everything else is wrong and false. There is no such thing as compromising with "truth" as they see or interpret it. Shortly afterwards, I left. The tension in the air was so thick you could cut it with a knife. It was like we hated each other, and there was absolutely no way to work things out with compromise unless I was the one to give in to her expectations of the JW way. In the middle of all this were our three beautiful daughters, who in their innocence, were, by implication of the rules, were expected to see their dad as the "bad guy" since he was disfellowshipped and shunned, whereas mom was the good and righteous person who only loved Jehovah, so they must side with her. I could see that they had become pawns in an adult world that was trapped in religion in a hopelessly divided home. They were being placed in an impossible situation where they are supposed to choose one parent over the other one, when they really loved both of their parents. It was also like two parents praying to God for the other one to see the "truth", which is reminiscent of the 2nd World War, where each side was praying to the same god for their side to win.
I concluded that there were circumstances where a marriage should NOT be kept together for the sake of the kids, especially if the home they would be raised in would amount to nothing but tension, fighting, arguing, unhappiness. What kind of emotional scars and psychological damage would put on the kids as they emerged into adulthood?
I say again. If two sincere, well-meaning individuals, living under one roof as a family unit, try to make things work but without compromise because the religious affiliations they belong to have no room for compromise (since they represent the "truth"), this will only lead to inevitable marriage failure. They become the natural extensions of the religious organizations they represent, and whenever you try to make "Organization-Think and Dogmas" operate inside a family unit, conflict and break-down is unavoidable. I think that these types of religion have gotten things backwards. The family unit does not exist to SERVE THE CHURCH, but rather the Church is there to serve the family unit. Instead, they put themselves BETWEEN Jesus Christ as the Saviour of Mankind, and the individual or the family unit. According to them, Jesus Christ cannot save you without that organization, or at least that's the way it looks to me. If I were to draw an Organization Chart, I would put God the Father at the top, and then draw a line down to Jesus Christ as Saviour and Mediator between God and Man. From Jesus Christ, I would draw a line down to the Individual and the Family Unit. From there I would draw a line down to the Church or Religious Organization, which is there to serve and support, and not to control. The Church or Organization has no business interfering, going between or acting as a judge or barrier between the Individual and Jesus Christ the Saviour. Period. And I am not talking as a Born-Again or Evangelical Christian. (I have no religious affiliation at present. But that does not mean I love God less.)
After leaving, I got my own place, and began going to University and pursuing a career. I was studying Sociology at the time, and began learning about the behavior of groups, institutions and organizations, and how individuals can immerse themselves and identify their whole personalities with those entities that they would even sacrifice themselves to the cause. Individual thoughts and questioning is out of the question, while loyalty and blind obedience is everything. Those who are at the top end up in positions of power and influence, and if certain rules and policies stand in the way, they are in the political position to make changes, while those underneath simply adjust to the new rules. This has to do with "Culture"- the values and meanings and symbols adopted by a group or institution. The people who belong to that Group/Institution live inside the framework of its Culture, and this process is known as "Interaction". This interaction process, individuals behaving inside this group trying to conform and live up to the expectations of the culture, produces "feedback" up to the leadership at the top. The leaders then note that certain changes need to be made along the way, and so before long, new policies, even teachings, begin to emerge. This is communicated down thru the membership, usually thru their publications, but also thru the local leaders who receive written instructions from above, and then pass them on to the members in that region or locale. This ensures uniformity and consistency throughout the Organization. In other words, the Culture defines the Interaction, and the Interaction process feeds back to the top, which then results in further refinements, changes and definitions of the Culture. This is to say that this is a very Human phenomenon- Culture defines Interaction, and Interaction defines Culture, so that no Organization stays the same, but is constantly changing and evolving (or devolving) into something else. The organization of today is not, and cannot be the same organization it was in the past. Even the so-called "One-Right Religion on Planet Earth" is subject to this.
For this reason, I began to look at the JW religion in a different light. I thought that maybe I should not be getting so hung-up about religious dogma, and the JW version of "Absolute Truth". After all, change is inevitable, given what I had just learned from Sociology. The lesson here was to be more tolerant and compromising. Family was more important. I was happy in my University studies; yet emotionally I was a wreck. I missed my three daughters terribly. And of course, I still loved my wife, as I had always loved her. It's just that she "fell out of love" with me. She told me when I became Mormon that she could not love a man who does not love Jehovah. I wrote to the Watchtower Society in Toronto about this problem. Six months later they replied with the statement that they understood how she felt, but that it was scripturally OK to still love her husband. I showed the letter to her, but that did not change the reality of what she really felt in her heart. She even told me she was ashamed to walk down the street with me beside her if she was to meet a fellow Witness on the same street. All of this had an influence on me when I decided to leave.
I now began to make it my mission in life to reconcile with my wife, and to get our family back together. She told me that I would have to return to the "Truth" before she could even consider that. I then approached the Overseer of the congregation in the area where I was living. But I was still a Mormon, and notwithstanding some of my doubts, was not yet ready to dismiss it in terms of what I believed from within. I went back to the Mormon Elders and explained my situation, and told them I wanted to reconcile with my family, but that I would have to return to the JW's before that would become a posssibility. They ended up agreeing to remove my name from the membership roles, but kept it in a separate filing cabinet, because the Mormon Church wanted to help families be together, but knew that it was not my purpose to renounce Mormonism. I was going back to the JW's as a prerequisite that was imposed on me by them for a reconciliation to occur.
So now I was able to focus on my family. When we separated, we were living in a major urban center. The wife and kids moved back to the farm of her parents, where there was a separate farm house. The farm was about 100 miles away from where I lived. This meant that on weekends I would be travelling back and forth, which I did for about 8 months before being reinstated. One of the rules that I had to obey was that I was to have absolutely no association with non-JW's other than certain necessary business and shopping activities. At the same time, I was to attend all of the meetings at the Kingdom Hall, but at no time was to talk to any of the Witnesses. I was to study the publications and pray to Jehovah, but the only ones I could talk to and visit with would be my wife and kids. It would be six months later that they would review my situation for possible reinstatement. This would have to be done by the elders at the congregation where my original disfellowshipment took place, and that happened to be where my family was now located. When the six months was up, which felt like an eternity, it was time for the meeting with the elders. Then I was told that one of the elders was away for a month, so we couldn't meet for another month. Then when he returned, I was told that the Overseer had gone to Kingdom Ministry School, and would not be back for at least another month. I was very angry and disgusted over all of this, as this was looking strangely like a lot of man-made behavior and convenience, rather than Jehovah's spiritual direction. My wife tried hard to settle me down, and to just hold on a little while longer, which I did.
Finally the big day came, and we had the interview, and I was reinstated. Witnesses came from miles around, as I had a lot of friends from the time when I was a witness. We had a big "reunion" at the farmhouse, with dancing and playing games, and a lot of talking about old times. Some of them were crying, they were so happy with my coming back into the fold. During the course of the evening, one of them brought up the subject of "field service", and shared some of the experiences they had, including some discussions they had with Mormons. Something went thru me like a "thunderbolt". I had this sinking in the pit of my stomache, that I would also have to go out there in field service and start talking with Mormons, many of whom I already knew when I was active with them. How could I look them in the eye and preach to them the "truth" that the JW's were teaching, while in my heart of hearts I did not yet believe that the Mormon religion was a false religion (notwithstanding some of my doubts about it). It became a kind of "catharsis". How can I suspend my personal beliefs for the sake of another Cause or Religion that was imposed on me as a precondition for a family reunion? If I were to go down this path of staying inside the JW relgion for the sake of the family, it would carry with it the incredible psychological guilt of being untrue to oneself, living a lie before God and man- an unbearable hyprocisy. I couldn't do it! I went back to where I lived in the big city and pondered what to do next. We had already picked out a place where we were going to live, and I had moved into the premises waiting for all the furniture, etc. to be brought in. Yes, I did a lot of praying, and felt torn between the prospects of a happy family reunion on the one hand, but having to live a lie, or alternatively, going on alone with the agony of a family that might have been, but at least being true to oneself in terms of what I felt in the core of my being. After about two weeks, I wrote my wife a letter that I could not believe the Watchtower Society as God's sole channel of communication on earth between God and man. We talked on the phone, and she warned me that I had better decide pretty fast because there was not much time left before I would be disfellowshipped again. Of course, that became the outcome. Better that, however, than going ahead with the reunion under those circumstances. This would have caused even more aggravation and grief to everyone had I gone ahead and then later regretted it, and quit the JW's in the end anyway.
So now I was on my own, struggling with the question of what to do now. I had accepted the final conclusion that the marriage was over, and in spite of the pain and heartache, depression and despair in the days ahead, I resolved to move on with my life, and try to make the most of it. Religion and all the struggles it embodies for so many years had by now left me with a kind of bad taste in my mouth. It felt like I had been in and out of the garbage pail, and I needed a breathe of fresh air. During this stage I became friends with a number of individuals who had no religious affiliation, even though they had had various religious backgrounds growing up.
I went to a do-it-yourself divorce class. I was going to get a divorce, but without having to pay for expensive lawyers. I found out that in Canada, divorce laws had changed to allow parties to divorce without one party having to be the guilty one under the law. So, for example, after two years of living apart, I could obtain a divorce on the grounds of "marriage breakdown" (whereas before it was referred to as "mental cruelty"). However, if I did that, my wife was going to have to spend the rest of her life without a husband, because while we could be separated, she would not be free to remarry unless there was proper grounds (i.e. adultery) under the JW rules. This became my rationale for giving her the grounds to divorce me. I ended up becoming intimate with a female friend in the new associates I was involved with, after which my wife was able to divorce me on an uncontested basis, and after which she would be free to remarry. I would be the bad guy, since I was already disfellowshipped, and I did not really want to go back to the Mormon Church either. At least my 3 daughters might have the chance to have a new father when my ex-wife remarried, and the home would certainly be united under one faith.
This did not mean I was trying to be some do-good martyr, sacrificing my eternal soul for the sake of my wife and kids. But I did have a lot of guilt and depression, and low self-esteem at the time, like about what a mess I made of my life, and God was not about to bless me with anything good. I guess I was just coasting, and didn't care a whole lot about right and wrong and morality, and all those things religion had been preaching at me for so many years.
Now, I still had unresolved the whole matter of the Mormon religion, which I eventually went back to. From hindsight, I learned that I had jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Being free from a bad marriage, managing the daily guilt and depression over my 3 daughters (being unable to communicate with them in a disfellowshipped state), I thought that if I settled down in the Mormon Church, even getting married to someone of that same faith, I would finally find true happiness. So I set my sights in that direction and full steam ahead. I did get married in the Mormon Temple, and I thought me and my new wife would lead to paradise. That's what the Church represented- the keys of the Priesthood having the keys to the Celestial Kingdom, the highest degree of glory in the hereafter. Now we had moved around a bit, but in one place I was engaged in some missionary work. At one place I received some information that really opened some questions about the Mormon Church that I had on the back of my mind from years ago, except this time there was a lot of serious evidence involved. There was also a source quoted which led me to some very in-depth publications by some Ex-Mormons who had exposed a lot of cover-ups and changes in the so-called revelations by Joseph Smith, etc. I acquired these books and studied them very seriously. After that, I was pretty convinced the Mormon Church was wrong, and that the average Mormon was virtually unaware about there even being a problem. I summarized the crisis areas of my faith into twenty questions, with brief summaries of the evidences that called into question the statements or positions of the Mormon Church, and then drove around the whole city and area, delivering this package of documents about one inch thick to each of the leaders in the Mormon Church, from the Stake President and his High Councillors down to the Bishopric of the local congregation I attended. This created one heck of a back-lash. I talked with a number of them by phone when they phoned me. Most told me they had never heard of any of this stuff, but would try to find some answers. There was not a single person in a position of leadership that had any answers, and not one offered any help. After that, I asked that my name be removed from the membership roles. Since I was a Mormon Elder, they accommodated me by excommunication, which is the only way you can get your name off the records. Even so, they always treated me kindly, and they do not engage in the practice of shunning, for which I am thankful.
Here we go again! I married in the faith. I left the faith. Now my marriage is divided. Since I am writing this on an Ex-JW site, I do not want to spend a lot of time on the Mormon part of the story. Suffice it to say that marriage number 2 ended in divorce and splitsville.
In retrospect, I can see that both marriages were based on a certain kind of relationship, in which the couple feels like they are in love with each other. It has to do with both persons looking for a potential mate who believes the same as they do (i.e. in the same religion). And as long as you both share the same beliefs, then God will work in that marriage to keep it united and in harmony. The minute one of the partners no longer believes the same way, the other partner no longer feels "in love" with their partner. They fall "out of love" because they feel their mate has betrayed them and God. This is one of the problems of Religious Absolutism, where they are the only right religion and everyone else is wrong. In other words, both of my ex-wives loved me with all their hearts, but only so long as I was a good JW or a good Mormon. The minute I felt I could no longer believe in that version of the "Truth", and therefore could not continue to be the good JW or Mormon, then everything changed. This is what I would call "conditional love"- where they love you on the condition that you live up to their expectation of being a good JW or Mormon. Strip religion away, and you discover the relationship has little or nothing to do with loving you for YOU (in spite of what you do)- the love of "uncondition".
Now, about "Depression". After all, this is the real reason I have been sharing my story with you. Lord knows, I had an awful lot to feel depressed about over so many years. What exactly is depression? It is Anger that is turned Inward. We have to learn how to deal with all that Anger. If we keep it all inside, it will eat us up; even destroy us. Also, in the final analysis, this is what we are doing to ourselves. We must not go around blaming other people or the outside world as "doing it to me". We cannot control what other people think or feel or do. The same is true for Institutions or Organizations, which interact with the world on their own terms. They are not running around trying to please or accommodate you or me. They are "doing their own thing.", and anyone that wants to belong to them must not be surprised that they will exercise "control" over their lives. The key is for you decide for yourself to what degree, if any, you will allow them to have control over you. You cannot control them, but you can control your reaction to them. And as an autonomous being, you can exercise your own control in terms of how much YOU will allow another person or organization to control you. This is where learning to be assertive comes into play. Only you can decide what's right for you, or what you believe or like or don't like. Once you make up your mind on these things, you then decide what you will allow anything outside your life to control or influence you. If you do not know, then you explore and investigate, research and question, in order that you can be properly equipped to make up your mind on something.
Once you learn how to assert yourself in life, exercising your built-in self-autonomy, you will find yourself taking control of your life in ways that you never knew or thought possible before. Others who accuse you of being bad or guilty or wrong or deceived may believe they are right and have your best interests at heart. But you do not have to accept their pronouncements. You cannot control them, but you CAN control your reaction to them. Do not let them be the judge of you. You decide over your own life. This is part of Self-Responsibility. This is key to getting over a lot of those hang-ups and guilt complexes we have been carrying around with us all our lives, like albatrosses. Until we learn to love ourselves, we cannot effectively love others. Stop the guilt! Discover that you really are special, and that you are worthwhile and loveable. Build your own self-esteem. Tell yourself every day that you are worth it, and that "Every day I am getting better and better". And no, you don't have to tackle and solve this whole problem in a day, and become overwhelmed. "Inch by inch, it's a cinch. Yard by yard it's hard." A day at a time. A day at a time. A day at a time. Strive towards improvement and perfection, even though no-one is perfect.
Create your own self-expression or "Mantra" to continually recharge your batteries. Here is mine:
"Right now I am receiving all of the love, power, wisdom and abundance, good health, good fortune, good luck and success from the all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere present God of the Universe."
I say this many times a day, whenever I can think of it or have a break. But I don't just babble out the words, lest they become meaningless expressions. I focus on key words and also try to visualize some of those qualtities. I try to visualize myself as being in the presence of God, becoming bathed in the light. I feel a kind of "goodness" wash over my being, and I begin to feel a part of this awesome universe. The Universe is not cold and indifferent, and neither is it hostile to our well-being. The world out there is not our enemy. After all, God created this Universe. He made us in his image, and we are His children, and He loves US. How then can we put up with all this condemnation from Organized Religion? It is time we turned within and discover the spirituality and love that is already there inside each of us. You don't need a Church or Organization to give you spirituality and a relationship with God. This is the real Truth these Organizations don't want you to know or find out.
And, in case you are wondering, I am not some religious fanatic running around preaching some "new age religion". I am simply sharing what I have found in my long and difficult struggle to find the real truth about God and the Universe. It was "Depression" that led me to the break-thru I needed, where one can find God and Love, though every Church and Organization and Person be against you. I am only suggesting that if you turn within your own self, there you will find the answers you seek. It will never be found "out there" in some man-made Institution with self-serving religious and political agendas calculated and designed to control the masses or the members. No-one and nothing on this earth has a monopoly on truth or an exclusive pathway to God. You have the right path for you to God, and it's right there within you, if only you take the time to find this out.
LOL
RodP
p.s. My youngest daughter, who is now grown up and married with 3 lovely daughters of her own, and who was raised in the JW religion, including when her mom remarried to another JW, went thru her own crisis and depression. About a year ago she finally left the JW's by disassociating herself. Since then, she says she has never known such happiness and freedom.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



This is the 2nd post now pasted from the thread "High rates of depression in Org."
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This is one of a series of installments as time permits. There is too much to do all at once. So here goes:

"You can count the seeds in an apple. But can you count the apples in a seed?!"
Along the way, down the pathway of life, we all plant seeds. Little do we know that from all that we have planted, what it is going to eventually reap.
My father was born on September 11, 1922 in the small town of Pincher Creek in Southern Alberta, Canada, about 25 mile S.W. from the City of Lethbridge. When he was about 17 years of age and in Grade 11, the year was 1940, when the 2nd World War was gathering momentum. Patriotism was running very high, and thousands of young Canadian men had gone off to the war overseas. Some local JW's were talking to school kids on the school grounds at noon hours and recesses. My father had a younger brother in Grade 10, and an older brother in Grade 12. These Witnesses carried around portable phonographs and records of speeches by Judge Rutherford, which they played to the kids. They also conducted Bible studies with the kids away from the presence of adults, including their parents. This was the time and manner in which my dad and his younger brother converted to the JW religion. Once converted, they then had to face the school system, which did its part to ensure that the national anthem "Oh Canada" was sung and the flag was saluted every day by all the students.
Of course, my dad and his brother now found it necessary to refuse to salute the flag and to sing "Oh Canada". After being warned of severe consequences if they continued their refusals, they still refused to obey. They were then marched up on stage in a school assembly and told once more to salute the flag. They refused, and so were strapped on the hands and wrists in front of the entire student body, and then expelled from school. They were being made examples for what happens when you dare to be "unpatriotic". Now they had to go home and tell their parents what had happened at school. Their parents (my grandparents) hated JW's, and since their two youngest sons were now one of them, then they were no longer welcome at home. They were each given $10.00 and told to "hit the road". Welcome to the real world!
While my dad's brother hitch-hiked to Port Alberni on Vancouver Island, my dad hitch-hiked east, past Lethbridge, and on to Medicine Hat at the other end of Southern Alberta, about 125 miles from home. With the little money he had, dad moved into a "room and boarding" house with a number of other young tenants. The Landlords were a husband and wife team who owned the property and lived on the premises, and prepared all the meals for the tenants. Now that he had a home, my dad got a job working as an apprentice to become a machinist and a welder for the C.P.R. (Canadian Pacific Railway). In those days, Medicine Hat was a major centre for servicing and repairing trains with steam engines. He started with the fabulous sum of $15.00 a week.
It wasn't very long before he met the young woman he fell in love with and later married, and who was to become my birth mother. That young woman was the daughter of the Landlords. When my father got married, he was 19 years old, while his young bride was 16 (almost 17). Now imagine this young couple making it on their own, with $15.00 a week coming in, and pay increases of something like five cents and hour coming on stream once a year. Then in April 1943 I am born, and 1-3/4 years later my brother is born. I have no idea how they could have managed all this on apprenticeship wages.
In the middle of all this, there was the military draft, where every eligible young male was drafted into the armed services. As near as I can tell, there were about a dozen young men in Medicine Hat who were JW's, and were all drafted. When they refused on the grounds of being "conscientious objectors", they were all thrown in jail. They also used the argument of scripture, saying they owed their subjection to the "higher powers", which the Watchtower Society taught were Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, and so were not going to go to war in obedience to any earthly government or ruler.
My dad was also drafted, but he was exempted from service for medical reasons, as he apparently had a heart murmer. This meant that my dad became the only adult male in the local congregation of JW's (around 50, including the males, who were now in jail). He was then put in the position of "Company Servant". In those days, the Congregation was referred to as a "Company", and the Overseer was the Company Servant. What we have here is a case of a young man with a wife and 2 kids, just barely surviving financially, and then being given the responsibility to lead over a congregation of women and children. As if he didn't have enough problems just taking care of his immediate family! My dad and his wife were expected to be shining examples of leadership and spiritual maturity, and "field service" was the order of the day. After all, they were all living near the end of this "Wicked System of Things".
The Witnesses met in a rented hall above a service station (garage), which was owned by the Fraternal Order of Eagles. Across the street was Central Park for the City. On Sundays, they used to run wires from the upstairs hall, out into the adjacent trees, and across the street into the trees over there, where speakers were attached. Then, when public talks were given from inside the Hall, talks would be broadcast over loudspeakers in Central Park. A lot of people came to the park on Sundays, sat down on their blankets like they were at a picnic, and listened to these public talks. My dad was a frequent speaker, and some of the sisters who were there used to tell me that he gave some of the best talks they ever heard. The last talk Dad ever delivered was called "The Destiny of Earth, and the Destiny of Mankind"
It was only a matter of time before something had to give. One winter, my mother had had enough. She was trudging thru the snowdrifts with a three-year old kid (that would be "me"), and another baby in her arms a little over a year old (that would be my "little brother"), while carrying a baby bag and a Witness literature bag, knocking on doors, and receiving door slams and verbal abuse. And she said "No More!" She couldn't do it any more. She just quit everything. That left my dad not only disappointed, but also quite embarrassed. After all, wasn't he their "Spiritual Leader"? What kind of example was this setting for the Congregation? Then the fighting and the arguing started. According to my mom, she had been physically beaten more than once, and at one time, she fell down the stairs at the entrance to the basement suite we all lived in. She left, feeling in fear for her life.
If you worked for the CPR, you were given a Family Pass, where any of the family could ride the train to anywhere across Canada where there were tracks. My mom took off on the train all the way to Winnipeg, Manitoba, about 500 miles away. She stayed in a Railroad Hotel Room overlooking the CPR tracks.
The day she left, my dad came home from work, and found me in the bedroom, locked in a closet, while my brother was in the crib crying and with messy diapers. (I do not know if I was deliberately locked in the closet, or whether I went in there on my own, and then couldn't get out. I do not remember any of this!) My dad had to take care of this sudden crisis by calling in the brother of my mom, who was still a student in High School. He took care of us for two weeks (staying out of school to do this), while my dad found places for us to live. My brother was sent to my dad's brother (Uncle Jim) in Port Alberni, B.C., while I was sent to a farm about 45 miles east of Medicine Hat. This was the home of the Fishers, who attended the Kingdom Hall in the "Hat" Some of my best and fondest memories come from that farm, notwithstanding they were JW's. It was a happy time of my life!
............................................to be continued!
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Here is the 3rd post now pasted below from the topic "High rates of depression in Org." Everything is now in one place, so will continue on from this thread.
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Well, I'm back again. Here's Episode #2, carrying on from where I left off last.
Just before my brother and I were sent away, dad took us for a ride. We all hopped on the train and travelled to Winnipeg to see our mom. God bless the C.P.R. for that family pass. I can recall looking out of the window of that hotel room, and being utterly amazed at all those rows and rows of railroad tracks, and all those trains moving around. (I loved trains, and used to dream about them. Once my dad even took me on top of a big engine that he was fixing in the "Roundhouse". It was awesome, and I felt so small.) Actually, the window was propped up to let the air in, so that I was looking out of the window thru open air. Suddenly, this gargantuan window came crashing down on my two little hands that were gripping the window sill while I was peering out. I was rushed to the hopital in an ambulance, and received stitches in my right thumb, and they bandaged my hand up like a big mitten.
Afterward, my dad, my brother and I were back in the hotel room visiting my mom again. The three of us were on one side of the room, while my mom was on the other. Dad told me to go over to mom, so I did. She picked me up and sat me on her lap. I looked her right in the eye and said "Mommy, please come home and take care of us!" Her response was "No way!. Nothing doing! Now go back over there to your dad." She put me down, and I walked back to dad. That was it, except for once; we never saw her again, until many years later when I searched for her and found her. We caught the train back home.
Now I found myself on the farm with the Fishers. I began to call them Grandma and Grandpa. They had three grown-up sons who also lived and worked on the farm, and I became fond of these "Uncles". Growing up on the farm can be lots of fun for a kid.I remember licking the salt blocks out in the pasture with the cows. And swimming in the pond with the ducks, as I talked to them like a duck. I remember sheering a sheep (with help) and feeding my pet lamb with a baby milk bottle with a big nipple. Also feeding calves the same way. There was this big gander with his gaggle of geese, and he used to chase me and peck on my legs as I ran away. I was terrified of him! One day I got tired of running, and stood up to him. I ran straight at him, shouting and throwing rocks at him. He was so shocked, he turned and ran across the farmyard with me hot on his heels all the way to the barn. He left me alone after that. I milked the cows, gathered eggs from the chicken coupe, and rode my little red wagon off the "cellar hill" where the preserves were kept. Once I got a bumble bee in my ear, while playing in the garden. I hopped around like a Mexican jumping bean, and Gramma Fisher came running to me, shoving her finger in my ear, and the bee flew away without even stinging me. I loved to eat rhubarb in the garden, but had to hide in the bushes so no-one could see me, since they were saving that for pies. There are hundreds of fond memories and stories I remember from those days. Just a normal kid.
Soon I was six, and it was time to go to school. The farm was ten miles from the town of Schuler where the "country school" was located. The school yard was the wide open prairie out in the back, where we used to catch gophers with string. A school bus would travel a main route, stop at various road allowances along the way and pick up each of the kids every day and take them to school. Then when school was over, we would be dropped off at the same spots. Now the farm was 10 miles from school, and the bus stop was 5 miles away. So each day the Fishers would drive me to the bus stop to catch the bus, and then come and get me at the drop off and drove me home. One day the Fishers had to drive to Medicine Hat, so they could not pick me up at the end of the day. Instead, they told one of their boys to pick me up after school. That was OK, except he forgot about the time. When the bus dropped me off, there was no-one there. I cheered over that, thinking I could walk home the five miles before they got me, and that would show them I was a big boy now. After walking for a while, it started to turn to dusk, and the hills and coulees got darker and shadowy. Off in the distance I started to hear the coyotes howling. Fear ran thru me, because a while ago we were all riding in the car, and I heard the coyotes howling, and one of the boys told never to leave the car when out in the prairies, because the coyotes can smell you, and will catch up with you and eat you alive. So here I am walking down this lonely, isolated road at dusk and imagining the worst. Suddenly, the howling stopped, and so my fears subsided, although I wondered if they were silent because they were sneaking up on me. I kept a wary eye open as I walked along. Soon I came to a giant ant-hill. The mound of fine granulated soil that peaked like a pyramid was as high as my knees, and it looked so neat, I just had to jump right into the middle of it all. Suddenly there were about a thousand ants running all over me, inside my pant legs, down my arms, on my face, in my ears. They were everywhere! That was when I learned to do the "Manitoba Jig", and I never knew I could jump so high and so fast. Anyway, I managed to shake them all off, with a few bites. To this day, I hate ants. Being none the worse for wear, I kept walking down the road towards the farm. Then I spotted this giant mushroom. I was thinking about creamed mushrooms on toast, and this was just perfect for supper when I got home. I picked that mushroom, and thought it was like an umbrella, it was so big. It even started to sprinkle rain, so I held that mushroom over my head like it really was an umbrella. Finally, I get over this last hill, and I could see the farmhouse off in the distance to the south-east. I decided to take a short-cut thru the field. I could see one of the boys in the farmyard walking from the barn to the house. Half-way, he stopped for a minute, and then rushed to the house. Then he hurried back to the place where he had been standing, and stopped and waited like before. I didn't know why he stopped, but I continued to march towards home, singing a song, trying to ignore the two blisters on my feet. Then I saw him run to the barn, and in a couple of minutes, come out of the barn, mount the horse, and head out into the field straight towards me at a full gallup. When he got up to me, he practically jumped off his horse which was still galloping, and looked at me with panic in his eyes, and asked if I was OK. I said "Yes, why?" He said he thought he had seen a coyote in the field, and he had gotten a rifle and was firing it at me to kill the coyote. As I kept coming towards him, he realized it was me, and remembered he was supposed to pick me up after school. He was very relieved that I was not injured. We rode double back to the farm. I had to tell him all about my adventures, while he soaked my feet in a washtub with epsom salts. Felt so good! We then went to cut up my mushroom. What a disappointment to discover it was all full of worm holes, and not edible. I didn't feel like eating after that, and don't remember if I did or not.
During this time, I missed a lot of school because of the usual childhood diseases- mumps, chicken pox, measles, whooping cough. Also, in winter months the snows and blizzards came, making the roads impossible to drive a car or truck on, because the snow-drifts would be three and four feet high. The road to the bus stop was a simple dirt road, no gravel, no grading, no paving. Out of a ten-month school term, I attended about half the time. By the end of Grade One, I barely knew the alphabet, let alone read "Dick, Jane and Spot" stories from a book.
However, throughout my time on the farm, we always had weekly bookstudies Tuesday nights- right in the farmhouse. Sometimes, fellow witnesses would visit, and we would all study together. On Sundays we had Watchtower meetings, again usually on the farm. Medicine Hat was 45 miles away, so attending meetings was a relatively rare exception, except, of course, when Assemblies were held. On Saturdays we drove around the farm community and did field service (except in Winter). All of this seemed quite normal for me. Dad did not have a car, so the only time I got to see him was when we travelled to Medicine Hat. I remember being so excited to see him, and crying when we had to leave. They also kept a picture of my mom on the refrigerator. From time to time Gramma Fisher told me to go see my mom in the picture. That became my memory of her. Quite some time had passed, and one day when we were in Medicine Hat, I got a visit from my mom. Gramma Fisher told me to "Go over there and see your mommy!" I apparently told her "That's not my mommy. My mommy is in the picture!"
During the springtime of Grade One (1950), my brother was removed from his home in Port Alberni, B.C., and joined me on the farm. Whoopie! I now had my brother back. And we fought like cats and dogs, with biting and scratching as part of our repertoire. (I guess it was hard to have to share with a brother when I had gotten used to getting all the time and attention. In May of that year my dad had gotten remarried, having divorced our birth mother earlier on. They did not want to pull me out of school with less than two months to the end of the school term, so we stayed on the farm until the end of June. After that, we got to move into the big city of Medicine Hat, with dad and our brand new mom. I always found it funny that my first mother was named Fay, while my second mother was named Kay. This was the start of a whole new world and life!
I will now try to reconstruct what transpired in my dad's life from the time he found homes for me and my brother. Here he was, still working for the CPR, and living all alone. For whatever reason, he became an inactive Witness, notwithstanding he still believed it was the "Truth" Years later he told me that he considered himself as one of the "Wicked and Evil Slave Class" which the Watchtower Society talked about during the Rutherford era (referring to those who rebelled against Rutherford's new leadership and successorship to Charles Taze Russell.) Perhaps he didn't have the heart to keep on attending meetings, and became embarrassed or even disillusioned. Perhaps he felt rejected by his wife, just like he was rejected by his parents and his school. I am quite certain that both my mother and my dad became very depressed, and also indifferent to spiritual matters. Many years later, when I talked to my mother, she told me that for a very long time she could not look at little boys playing in the school grounds or playgrounds, because it would tear her up inside. Dad would come off work and stop by a nearby hotel and"drink a few beers with the boys". One day he was there, and someone tapped him on the shoulder from behind, asked if his name was ____________ ____________, and dad told him "Yes." Wham!..... The guy punched dad in the face without warning and broke his jaw. Dad fought back, and the other guy spent six months getting over his injuries. It later came to light that my mom had talked this guy into "punching out" my dad. (Perhaps because of the physical abuse she felt she had received from dad while she was with them. I really don't know.) What I do know is that in all of my years of growing up with dad, I and my brother were not brutalized physically by dad. Yes, we did receive spankings from time to time, but we did not get the sense that he spanked us out of anger, but rather to teach us a lesson. We did not feel "afraid" of our dad, but did feel a lot of respect towards him.
In any event, my mom and dad got divorced. My dad got custody of us, and that was it. The Court ruled my mom was an unfit mother, probably because of abandonment.
After the divorce, dad met someone nice, who later was to to become our new mom. She had been a widow from the 2nd World War. She lost her husband who was shot down as a fighter pilot. For six years she stayed at home, and did not go anywhere socially, although she did work in a "Dress Shop". She had a real head for business.
I don't know who, but some friends of our new mom, who also knew dad, felt that she needed to start getting out and on with her life, and that dad needed companionship as well. In any event, they got together and fell in love, and then were married. Mom had a background of growing up with the United Church and also the Anglican Church. She and her brother and sisters were never religious, but they did go to these churches. The United Church would transfer in a new, young and good looking minister. Than all the Anglican Church people would flock over to the United Church to check out the new minister in town. Then this minister would get them involved in all kinds of programs, and the Church would prosper. But now the Anglican Church needed to revive and renew itself. So they would transfer in a new Minister, and everyone would flock over there. This see-saw game was how she grew up with religion. Before getting married, dad arranged for there to be some bible studies in order to introduce his bride-to-be to the J.W. teachings. During the studies, she would consider things point-by-point, but did not hesitate to express where she agreed and where she disagreed with the teachings or interpretations of scripture. She did not believe that any one church or religion had all the answers. After these bible studies, she told dad that if he wanted to continue to be a Jehovah's Witness, she would not oppose him, but that he should not expect her to become one of them. They still loved each other, but dad knew from the outset that his new wife was never going to become a J.W. Ultimately, his response was that he "will die believing this is the Truth" but that he "didn't have the guts to get out there and be an active J.W. when she's not going to as well." And so, when they got married, we were raised without any religion. Dad did have some bible studies with us kids in the home, but we seemed to be more interested in playing and other things, than sitting there thru those boring old bible studies. Dad just let it all slip by, and we all kind of forgot about religion.
We now settled down as a new family unit while we learned how to live with and accept this new mother. At first, we called her "Kay". Imagine this. She is on her own, She gets married, and the next day, she wakes up as the "mother of two boys". Instant family! It must have been a real shock to her system. For about two months she could not do enough for us. We were spoiled rotten with all kinds of new toys and clothes. A lot of this was bought when they were on their honeymoon. And, of course, we found out we could get away with almost anything. We were "holy terrors"! Finally, she couldn't take it anymore, and she exploded. When dad came home from work, he found her sitting on the couch crying. He asked her why she was crying. "I spanked the kids!" she blurted out. Dad asked "And what did they do then?" She replied tearfully, "They ran up and hugged me, and called me 'Mommy'! " "Well," dad said, "now they are yours!"
In my next episode, I will tell you how religion came back into my life, and how I became involved with the J.W.'s. It is just starting to get interesting.
LOL
RodP
.........................................to be continued.

jeanniebeanz
jeanniebeanz 11 years ago



Hi, Rod. Welcome.
I actually studied with the Mormons for a while after I got the boot from the org. Never bought it but it was interesting.
Jean

nilfun
nilfun 11 years ago

That was some good reading, Rod P. Very interesting story! Thank you for sharing it :smile:

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #3
Medicine Hat was a good place to grow up in. Still is! But growing up and going into Grade 2, fresh off the farm, with a new mom and a new "home". Well, let's just say there was a lot of adjusting to do. For one thing, there were all those strange new kids in Grade 2 who could read, and I couldn't. Everyone looked at me kind of funny, and I felt very embarrassed. The teacher contacted mom, and made her aware of the problem.
Mom came from the "old school". She didn't think much of all these new theories in education, and on teaching kids how to read. Mom said she was taught the old fashioned way, by "A, B, C ("k")(sounding out the sounds of those letters. Today we call it "Phonics"). She started drilling me every day. She had this list of words. Every day I had to learn them- how to sound them out, and how to spell each of them. Any word I got wrong would be on the list next day. It would stay there for as long as it took to get it right. This worked quite well, until one day the word "egg" was on the list. She said the word, and I had to spell it out loud. "A-g" "No!" "I-g" "No!" "E-g" No! Try again." "A-g-g" "No!" "I-g-g" "No!" And by the process of elimination, "E-g-g" "Yes! Good boy! You got it right!".......The next day, mom asked "How do you spell Egg?" "But mom, I got it right yesterday. Why do I have to spell it again?" "Doesn't matter, how do you spell Egg?" "Ag" "No!" "Ig" No!" "Eg" "No!"......Well, you get the picture! Next day, same thing. And again. And again. Do you think I could remember how to spell that dam word? Not on my life. One morning mom woke me up and asked if I wanted some eggs for breakfast. I started to cry. I thought it was that darn spelling test again! But, eventually I got it, and mastered the word "Egg", so that it would never haunt me again!
This drilling went on for months, until the next report card showed a complete turn-around. I had learned how to read as good as the next kid, and then never looked back. When I was in Grade 10, all of us students in North America had to take the same simultaneous spelling test, which I suppose was a way for the respective school systems to find out how their population of students were doing in relation to others. When the test results came back, mine showed 98%. The teacher explained that this mark meant that I had scored "as good as or better than" all of the Grade 10 students in North America in spelling on the same test. I attribute this success to my "new mom", way back in the second grade. Without her time, patience and skill, I may never have learned how to read or spell.
"You can count the seeds in an apple, but can you count the apples in a seed."
As the school years ticked by, I would have to say things were pretty normal. In Grade 7 I got to write scholarships, with a GPA of 96% for the year for all subjects. Came in 1st on a tie with another fellow, but his surname came first in the alphabet, so he was assigned 1st position, and I got 2nd. My mom was hopping mad over the unjustice of it all, and complained about it, but the results remained. Oh well. I did my best, and that's what counted.
Mom and dad bought me my first fishing rod and reel that year, as a reward. I was very proud of it. When we all went on a fishing trip, mom would sit and talk with the ladies, my brother and I would play around and explore the area, and my dad would fish with the guys. When one of these trips were coming up, I wanted to try fishing, but didn't have a rod and reel. So before the trip, I decided to make my own. Dad had just bought a new fishing line which he wound onto his reel.That left an empty spool, which he would have thrown away. I grabbed that spool and went down to the park by the river and cut off a willow. After trimming, it became a good fishing pole, and I nailed a big nail into the side and mounted that spool, which had a nice hole in the centre, allowing it to freely spin on the nail. Then I mounted those little things that are used for nailing barbed wire on to fence posts, all along my pole. I didn't have any fishing line, so I went all around finding pieces of string (that white kind bakeries use to tie up your boxes of pastries). I tied all these pieces together with knots, until I had a nice long fishing line, and rolled this onto my spool. Now I was ready to go fishing with my dad. We got out to the lake and found our spot along the water line. I could see this row of fishermen all along the water's edge, each spaced about 100 or more feet away from the next guy. I spaced myself accordingly. The sun was just setting on the horizon, the lake was smooth as glass, and the air was deadly quiet. Nobody said a word, because no-one wanted to scare the fish. Without a word, I cast my first cast. Whirrrrrrrrrrr.........!!! The noise was deafening, and it echoed across the whole lake.The knots on the string went thump...thump....thump..thump..... as the line whirred out about 200 feet. I could have crawled in a hole. It was also scary, because now I had a whole bunch of fishermen who were mad and disgusted with me. My dad made me stop fishing! So when mom and dad got me that new fishing rod and reel, you can imagine how pleased and appreciative I was.
The next time we went fishing, I cast that beautiful silent line into the lake, and in only 3 casts had caught a fish, my first ever. Now that I had a fish on the line, what to do with it! I panicked, locked the reel, turned about and ran. I was on a hill. I pulled that fish thru the water and half-way up the hill before I stopped running. There was no way I was going to let my first fish get away. I was very proud of myself that day, as my dad got skunked, and I was the only one with a fish!
I spent the next two years being a newspaper boy. I started out in Grade 7 delivering papers on a route near my school. When the snow and blizzards got too bad, but there was still a newspaper that day, mom and dad would help me with the deliveries. I did this for two years, and at the end was one of the oldest newsboys around, with another route much bigger. It was on this paper route that I ran into my grandmother, who was the mother of my birth mom. She had been a widow from her first husband (my grandpa), and had been married a number of years to the current husband, so that I did not recognize her name. Also, because I had not seen her since the age of three, there was no way to recognize her. It happened when I was collecting money on the doorsteps of my customers, and when I knocked on her door to collect, she recognized me and called me by my childhood nickname. I asked who she was, and she told me she was my grandmother. That one blew me away! It's a small world. This became the way I found out many years later where my birth mother was, when I wanted to look her up (i.e. by contacting this grandmother again). Anyway, being a newsboy, I learned how to earn money, being able to clothe myself and have all I needed for spending money, and still have money left over thru savings. My mom guided me with good advice along the way about using this money.
Mom and dad built a new house in the town of Redcliff, just 4 miles from Medicine Hat. It was what you could call a "satellite town" to the Hat, with everyone doing their main shopping in the Hat. But land was far more economical in Redcliff, and that was where mom was born, so it made a lot of sense to build there. We all moved into our new house, and my brother began attending school in Redcliff, while I had to catch the bus and ride into the Hat to my new High School in Grade 10. The thing is, we had two-hour lunch hours at school, and that was a lot of time on our hands. One day I was looking in the phone book, and found out that the Fishers now lived in town, and where they were living. It was my grandma and grandpa from the farm. I was thrilled, because now I could see them again. They had sold the farm and retired in the Hat, and the house they lived in was about 8 blocks from the high school. I went over there for a visit, and met "Grandma Fisher" on the doorstep. It was a great reunion, except that I discovered she was now a widow, and lived on her own. She had remained an active JW all these years. In fact, even more so, because now she lived in the city. It was not unusual for her to have 150 hours or more of field service in a month, and she always had 5 or more separate bible studies going on. We renewed old memories, and then started to have bible studies. I then used my noon hours having daily bible studies at her home. It was great, and I discovered that I had a kind of "spiritual hunger" all these years, not having anything to do with religion while growing up- effectively a "spiritual vacuum". Many other kids my own age were going to their own respective churches, and they talked about it like any other subject as though it was a normal part of life, although they never debated doctrinal issues. I remember feeling kind of left out, but just ignored some of those conversations wistfully.
We started the bible studies with the book "From Paradise Lost, to Paradise Regained". This started with Adam and Eve and Creation, which was what I needed, since I needed to start at the beginning, having been away from it all for so long now. This was too slow for me, so I was given a number of other books, like "The Truth Shall Make You Free", and lots of Watchtowers and Awakes, Yearbook, etc. At home I soaked it up like a sponge, and studied doctrinal teachings intensely. I had so much to learn, and I was doing all this without telling mom and dad, because I was afraid that they may not like me doing this. I did, however, tell them that I had visited "Mrs. Fisher". I did ask if it would be OK to go to the Kingdom Hall, but this was declined. I suppose this would have meant they would have to drive me to the Hall and then drive me back home, and they were not about to go to these meetings. At any rate, I told Grandma Fisher I couldn't go, but we still continued with the studies. One Saturday morning at home, there was a knock on the door, and mom answered. A JW Sister was there, and she began to "condemn" mom for being in opposition to the "Truth" and not allowing me to attend the Kingdom Hall. Let me tell you, things really hit the fan that day. You do not go to mom's front door and condemn her from her own home. Mom and dad and I had a serious conversation that day, and I had to explain about all the bible studies, and that I was invited by Mrs. Fisher to go to the Kingdom Hall, and so she must have been talking with some of the Sisters at the Hall, and that was why one of them ended up on our doorstep, but that I had no idea why she would be condemning mom for being in opposition to the Truth. The bottom line was that if Mrs. Fisher was the source for all this, then I am henceforth forbidden to have any more visits with her. This made me very sad, and I was quite bewildered as to how this could have become such a disaster.
I obeyed my parents, and stayed away. My noon hours were just not the same anymore, but I went on with my regular school studies and homework. Also, at home, l put away all the JW publications.What was the point of doing this anymore, if all I do is get in trouble over it? About two weeks later, Grandma Fisher came to the school at noon hour and spoke to me, wondering why I did not see her anymore. I apologized, then explained what happened at our door, by who, I don't know, but that they were condemning mom, and now I can no longer see you Grandma! She went along with me respectfully, and she did not approach me again.
For another couple of years, I left on the back-burner anything to do with religion. It was 1960, and I am in Grade 12, and travelling in a circle of avid Chess and Bridge players. We used to play these games, as well as arm wrestled during these 2-hour lunch periods. And got pretty good at this too! I also fell in love with a high school sweetheart, and we played lots of 45 rpm records, went to sock-hops, even danced on TV for phone-in votes, and all that fun stuff. Girls were a complete mystery to me, never having had a sister in my life. They all seemed kind of surreal and unfathomable to me. In the spring of 1961 I dug up one of those JW books and started to read it again. I started to memorize a ton of scriptures on the soul doctrine, the trinity, hell, blood, baptism, bible prophesy and the signs of the times, etc. etc. I'm 18 now, and starting to think and question an awful lot about life and purpose and religion, and so much more. This time, however, nobody else was involved, and I did this quietly and privately on my own.
One Sunday morning I was on the highway in downtown Redcliff, hitch-hiking to Medicine Hat to see my girl friend. A car pulled over and picked me up. We exchanged niceties, and somehow in those few minutes he asked if I belonged to any church. I told him I didn't belong to any Church, but that I have had a background with Jehovah's Witnesses, which I tended to believe, and also that my dad started out that way, but is not active. This guy turned out to be the United Church minister in Redcliff, and he was on his way to another small town to deliver a sermon. He told me he would love to get together with me some evening and have a chat. His name was Reverend Hunt. I said I would be delighted! We set it up for the following Wednesday evening in his manse, which was right beside the Church in Redcliff, and he and his family lived there. My interest in him was that it was going to give me a real opportunity to discuss religion one-on-one (especially doctrinal matters) with a man who was versed in Hebrew and Greek, and so knew the Bilbe way more than I did. Also, mom had been raised with United and Anglican Church background, so this should be in tune with her, and I should not run into any opposition. Or so I thought! I forgot about my dad!
.........................................................to be continued.
In my next Episode, I would like to lay out the circumstances by which I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses on a fully-committed basis, and also some of the consequences that flowed from that.
LOL
Rod P

Double Edge
Double Edge 11 years ago

Interesting read. You should turn this into a novel ... maybe titled "The Agony and the Agony".

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



To: jeanniebeanz:
Interesting you studied with the Mormons. How long and how deep did you get into it?

To: nilfun:
Glad you enjoyed the reading. The story is still a "work-in-progress" so I need to ask your forbearance until the real meaning of it all can be made clear. I know this is a lot of reading, but if you just hang in there, all will be revealed. There are a lot of surprises in store! Trust me on this one.

To: Double Edge:
Perhaps it is interesting. It's hard to know that for sure if you are the one who is inside the story.
As for turning it into a novel, who would buy it? It is just "my story", even though I paid for it in "blood" (figuratively speaking, of course).
I know about the "Agony and the Ecstasy" because I read the book and saw the movie. I get your point.
One thing though, my story is not an appeal for attention or sympathy, and I want no-one to feel sorry for me. And I most certainly am not not doing this for money. When all is said and done, I wish only to share with others what I have gone thru in hopes that in some small way it might help others to see that they are not alone, that there are those who understand what you are going thru and struggling with, or else have already experienced, but that you don't have to end up in despair.

LOL, People!
Rod P.

boy@crossroads
boy@crossroads 11 years ago



I like your sense of storytelling. I also am studying sociology. and i've thought about visiting the mormon church, not to join but just out of interest. It seems strange that after excommunication (a drop in your status) no-one would look at you differently. Maybe I just not used to that way of interacting (having been raised in the jws).
I like the part about using the mushroom as an umbrella. Seems like something out of a childs fable.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Before I get into the next phase, I need to step back a few years and introduce a few other "threads" to this story. These are important elements for what comes later.
When dad remarried, and we got our new mom, we celebrated birthdays and Christmas, and Halloween, and all those things the JW's taught were bad and wrong and pagan in origin. Well, what kid doesn't like these things? After all, we get all these nice presents, get a lot of free stuff, and have lots of fun. Kids are not normally caught up in doctrinal arguments and other subtleties of logic and scriptural interpretation that adults do.
One day, in Grade 2, I lost a tooth. Mom told me to put the tooth under my pillow, and the fairy would come and take the tooth, and give me a quarter. That was exciting, so that's what I did. The problem was, at about 6:00 a.m. I was awake, and I saw my dad come into the bedroom. I closed my eyes and pretended to be asleep. I heard and felt my dad feeling around under my pillow for my tooth, and then I felt him put the quarter there. As he walked out of the room, I opened my eyes and saw him leave. Dad went to work. Then mom got us up for breakfast, and off to school. At the breakfast table I showed mom the quarter, and said that there was no tooth fairy because I saw dad do it. Mom seemed disappointed. That was the last quarter I got for losing a tooth. Should have kept my mouth shut!
Next was Halloween that same year. It was fun dressing up and going from door to door getting suckers and chocolate bars and popcorn balls and candied apples. Hey, this was great fun!
Next came Christmas, which really was our first Christmas. What an exciting time! The stockings were full of goodies and the presents were great, and there were so many gifts from all our aunts and uncles, and especially mom and dad. However, one of those presents did not appear under the tree until the next morning. It was a hockey game where you pulled these levers to make the men move, to shoot the puck down the "ice" and into the goals. The tag said it was "From Santa". Of course, we had been taught in the book studies that there was no such thing as Santa Claus, and it was all a myth. So me and my big mouth again, opens it and announces "There is no such thing as Santa! I think mommy and daddy got us this present". Mom argued that if I did not believe in Santa then we need to give this present back to him, since he does not exist. Well, we didn't want to lose out on this "best present", so reluctantly I said that I believed in Santa after all. I don't think this was one of my parents' proudest moments, but at the same time, they (especially mom) were simply trying to give their kids the experience of enjoying Christmas, which was really for the kids. It was not about doctrine and debate about pagan origins, and whether it was right or wrong. It was about kids having fun, and going thru the normal childhood experiences like all the other kids were doing. At the same time, it forced me to lie by saying "Yes, I believe in Santa," because if I didn't relent, and tell mom what she wanted to hear, then we would forfeit the gift. They taught me to lie that day. Anyway, that was the last time we had Christmas with Santa Claus, but we still continued to celebrate and have fun every Xmas.
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The kids in our neighborhood loved to play "Cowboys and Indians". Of course, my brother and I jumped right in there. My brother had this gun and holster set that could shoot caps (to make it go bang! bang! real loud). I seem to recall the set having a certain insignia on the pieces, such as "Hopalong Cassidy" or "Gene Autry". Remember those old Saturday afternoon matinees, where you paid fifteen cents for a movie, and ten cents for a bag of popcorn and a nickel for a pop? These Cowboy Westerns were all about the good guys chasing the bad, with Hopalong or Gene or Roy Rogers being the heroes. The Indians, of course, were often (but not always) depicted as the bad guys and as murdering savages who scalped the innocent settlers, etc. Of course, there was the Lone Ranger, with his loyal indian friend Tonto. But then there were movies about Indians who were heroes, and the white man was the bad guy, such as Cochise, Chief Sitting Bull, etc. Anyway, my brother was very proud of his gun and holster set.
We used to play this game of Cowboys and Indians in the giant park by the South Saskatchewan River, which went right thru the centre of the City of Medicine Hat. The river was wide and deep and swift, and people had drowned in there, when undercurrents pulled them down to the bottom. The Lions Club financed and built this park, which had lots of picnic spots, barbecue pits and the usual playground facilities and picnic tables. In one place there was a "Summerhouse" where games and activiites were organized and conducted and supervised during the summer months. Anyway, along the river banks of the park there were lots of willows and cottonwood trees, etc. This was an ideal place to play Cowboys (or Calvary) and Indians. Almost every kid wanted to be a cowboy or a soldier. Not me! I'd rather be an Indian any old day. I had my handy-dandy home-made bow and arrow set, and I could hide in the bushes and in the trees, wait for those cowboys to come along, and "Whoooosh...!" shoot them dead with my arrows. We had an understanding that if you got hit, you would have to fall down and pretend you were dead. With arrows, you knew you were hit, and depending on where the arrow hit, you knew if you were dead or wounded. With cap guns, or yelling "Bang! bang!, you're dead!", it was always debatable if the other guy was hit or not. "I hit you and you're dead!" "Am not; you missed!" "Are so!" "Am not!" Then I would come along and shoot them with my arrows. "There, you're both dead," I would tell them. With arrows, you always knew. But the best part was, they were silent and deadly!
One day there was a contest at the Summerhouse. The kids would all have to dress up in their own "Costumes" which had to be made up from their own "imaginations". They could not be "Store-bought". I dressed up like an Indian, with my homemade bow and arrow, headband with feathers, and a painted face. After all, I was an Indian at war, so I had to paint my face. Guess what. I won! I just loved being an Indian.
In the summertime I loved those parades with the Indian Chiefs and their full head-dresses, their beadwork and their horses. And I loved those pow wow drums! In school, I loved to read about Hiawatha, Chief Sitting Bull and others, and about tribes like the Ojibwe, Mohawk, Iroquoise, Crow, Blackfeet, Souix, Navaho, Apache, and others.
The City where I was growing up had an Indian name, "Medicine Hat". At one time they were going to name the place "Gasberg" because of all the gas deposits they had discovered under the ground. Boring! So someone did some research, and found out about an interesting Indian legend. The Blackfeet lived on one side of the South Saskatchewan River, while the Crow lived on the other side. A foot-bridge had been built across the river, but it was only wide enough for one person to cross at a time. One day the Chief from one tribe was walking across the bridge, while the Medicine Man from the other tribe was coming across from the other side. They met in the middle, and neither one was going to back down and be made to go back to the start. So they fought there in the middle of that bridge, and during the battle, the Medicine Man's hat was knocked off his head and into the river. That was when the Indian people called the spot "Medicine Hat".
Footnote: I know that in this day and age it is not "politically correct" to refer to these people as "Indians". Instead, they are currently referred to as "First Nations" people. However, I have used the word "Indian" in the historical context of the day, where that was how we all spoke of them as being "Indians".
I am telling you all this because later you are going to discover what a big part and influence all this has had on my life.
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The next thing I want to bring up is the subject of "Discipline and Spankings". As most of you already know, JW's are taught the concept of "Spare the rod, and spoil the child." This essentially comes from the book of Proverbs- 13:24 ; 22:15 ; 23:13,14 ; 29:15. This is often quoted and used as justification for spanking, even beating their kids. Unfortunately, all too often, discipline and punishment is unleashed on a small child out of anger or rage, rather than to teach a valuable lesson. The idea of a "Rod" has to do with a Shepherd and his Sheep. The Shepherd would use his Rod to guide his sheep to go in a certain direction, such as tapping on the side of the sheep to steer it a certain way. Sometimes a sheep would fall off a rock or trail, and would tumble into a crevice or hole and need to be rescued. The Shepherd would use his Rod or Staff, that was curved at one end, to reach down with the staff and "hook" the sheep by the neck, and then drag it out of the hole to rescue it. It may have been painful, being pulled by a Rod around the neck, but it also saved its life. In other words, I think the teaching has been wrongly interpreted and used over the years to justify and give parents the license to inflict harsh beatings and cruel punishment on their children, because they think the scriptures authorize this kind of treatment. These parents think they are "teaching their children a lesson" and they are right, except that it is the wrong kind of lesson. Those beatings may result in terrifying the kids into obedient behaviour, because they would now fear that it may happen to them again if they repeated the offense. However, all this really teaches them is to fear their parents, rather than to love and trust them. They learn how to lie out of self-preservation, and sneak around so as not to get caught the next time. And the older they get, the more sophisticated they become at this game. There are usually one of two responses that are the outcome: 1) Flight or 2) Fight. If a child is predisposed to the Flight Response, brutalizing that child can absolutely destroy his/her self-esteem, and he/she will grow up timid and unassertive, because they feel so powerless over their own lives. They hesitate to take initiative, always seeking permission to do something, or to express an opinion about something, or even to feel a certain way, because they do not want to incur disapproval from the other guy. If a child is predisposed to the Fight Response, this kind of physical punishment creates only hostility and anger, and they will usually fight back or rebel. Often these kids turn into the "bullies on the block", and they grow into angry young adults. When those kids get bigger, where they can then physically handle themselves, they will often turn on their parents.
Having said this, I want to comment about how my brother and I were raised. I said earlier that when my dad disciplined us, including spankings, we did not feel brutalized or fearful of him. On the other hand, he was not the one who did most of the disciplining. Our new mom did that. And she came from a certain British/Welsh background which culturally was very disciplinarian by nature. It was considered "the norm". Also, children should be seen and not heard. I believe that mom was well-meaning, but that that was how she was raised, and it was never considered wrong or harsh, and should not be questioned. And if that was how they were raised, then when they grew up, it was their turn to raise their kids the same way. That, I believe, is what happened.
After that first spanking by our "new mom", it did not take very long for spankings to become the norm. Mom inheritated these two boys who were fighting and biting and scratching each other. To teach us not to fight, she took each of our hands and bit them really hard. Boy that hurt! But we stopped that biting and scratching pretty darn fast, because if we didn't, we knew she would bite us again. Instead, we found the best way to fight was to tattle-tail on each other, and then let mom inflict the punishment. That was how to get even with your brother. After awhile, we made a pact. If you don't tell mom that I did such and such, then I won't tell mom that you did so and so. We had this little mental "black book" that we kept on each other, where all of the bad things we did were on this list. Because our respective lists of "bad deeds" got rather long, it was a pretty scary thing to contemplate what would happen if "my brother told this whole list to mom"- the consequences would be devastating. It was like the "Cold War" where the Americans and the Russians had this policy of M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). Both sides had the "nuclear bomb", and if one used it on the other, then the other one could retaliate with the same weapons, and if they ever did, both sides would be equally destroyed. This is what kept the "Balance of Terror" so that each side was too scared to use it on the other. This was the game my brother and I were playing, and our MOM was the weapon!
Growing up, we used to steal crab apples from other people's yards. This was during the summer holidays, when the cab apples got ripe. We had bicycles, so we could travel a pretty big neighborhood, and also escape very quickly. We got caught a lot. This included mom discovering lumps in our pant pockets, and upon enquiring what they were, she knew we had been stealing. After awhile, "spanking" became our middle name. Once, my brother got caught when the police were involved, and he and dad had to go down to the police station and meet the chief of police. The chief took my brother to a jail cell and showed him that this was where kids who steal end up. That was a pretty scary experience for him, and I thought about it vicariously. When they got home, dad punished him further by taking the screws out of his favorite toy gun so that it lay in pieces, and then took a leather knife and cut up his belt and holster into a bunch of little pieces, and then made him take it out to the garbage and dispose of it. My brother was heart-broken, while I looked on. I think that kind of ended our desire to steal crab apples.
As the years went by, a lot of other things took the place of stealing, which had mostly to do with disobeying the rules. Mom had a lot of rules that we kids thought were ridiculous or unreasonable. For example, in Grade 2 our bed-time was something like 6:00 p.m. After one year (Grade 3) we got to stay up until 6:30. A year later it became 7:00 pm. At this rate, by the time I was in Grade 10, bed-time was 10:00 pm. It stayed at 10:00 pm. all thru high school, because that was when mom and dad went to bed. For years we had been arguing with mom that other kids our wage got to stay up, and even play outside, long past the hours we had to live by. Her response was that that was how other kids got into trouble and went on to commit crimes. I didn't see how that would be possible if we got to stay up, but inside the house. Also, because my brother was one grade behind me in school, he got to stay up that half-hour one year earlier than I. That wasn't fair, I thought! The real truth of all this was that making kids go to bed early was a good way to get them "out of your hair". And when you go to bed at 10:00 pm., you don't want to have the kids up making a noise so you can't sleep. This was all about convenience and control, and little or nothing to do with our welfare at heart.
As we got older, the spankings got harder. They progressed to leather straps, plastic hair brushes (including spanking with the stiff bristles), wooden spoons, fly swatters and belts with metal buckles. They were not limited to the derrier. Sometimes it became random swinging, and it didn't matter where it landed. My brother chose the Flight option. When mom came at him with a wooden spoon, for example, he took off running around the house. As he ran, he would duck into the bathroom, with mom right on his tail. As she swung at him with the spoon, he would duck, and the spoon would break over the bathtub and break in two. That would end the spanking. I can't count how many wooden spoons were broken. By the age of 16, I was ready to rebel, and even leave if necessary. We got very few spankings after that, but certainly lots of lectures on behavior, which added up to a lot of nagging and screaming as far as I was concerned.
Suffice it to say, these discipinary actions left their marks on each of us. For me it has been a lengthy process over many years, but I learned forgiveness. I love mom, and forgive her, and have moved on. (I can forgive, but I can't forget.) I just think that mom has had issues with her short-temper" and lack of anger management. It was about control at all costs. This is an issue that has continued long past childhood. And yet, there were many good times too, and mom has revealed herself as being loving and kind-hearted and fair-minded. In recent times, there were circumstances where I don't know what I could have done without her. She is also very ticked off with the JW policy of disfellowshipment and how they treat people, and how so many JW marriages she has known have ended in failure and divorce. She is my MOM!
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Now I am ready to move on to the next episode, where I become a fully-commited JW.
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



To: boy@crossroads:
When I was excommunicated from the Mormon Church, I most certainly am regarded and treated differently. They treat excommunication very seriously, and they see your eternal salvation as being lost, unless you repent. But it does not necessarily follow that they have to "Shun" you like the JW's do. Further, they would not be socializing with you either, and it you wanted to still be friends with them, they would certainly be councilling you to repent and consider coming back to the "True Church" and the Priesthood. Having been an Elder in the Mormon Church, if I wanted to get my Priesthood back, it would have to be restored by one of the Apostles of the Church, which is right up there at the top of the Church hierarchy based in Salt Lake City, Utah. I know of one who was excommunicated and then later came back to the Church. He got re-baptised, but still could not hold the Priesthood until he had it restored by one of the 12 Apostles of the Church. He waited until one of the Apostles visited the Ward where he attended, and while he visited, he met with the guy and re-conferred the Priesthood on him.
An excommunicated Mormon is allowed to attend Church, but is not allowed to partake of the sacraments.
You will find your visit to the Mormon Church very interesting, and the Mormons a very friendly people. They will treat you very kindly, and befriend you, and, of course, would love to send the Missionaries to your home and give you the Book of Mormon as a free gift, and start you in on their discussions. It is a very thorough and well-organized program to steer you in the direction of becoming a Mormon. The problem is not so much what they tell you, for a lot of it is often pretty easy to accept. The real problem is all of the stuff they DON'T tell you about, and that you may or may not even know or find out about until much later. That is where most of the X-Mormons come from, much later, given what they later discover is also part of their Church History and their Revelations, and become shocked and disillusioned.
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About the Giant Mushroom. I know of some of those fairy tales, and gnomes and elves, etc., but age 6 I had not heard of any of this stuff. But this was absolutely what happened. I did find a giant mushroom. I remember looking at it and wondering if I could eat it all myself. I thought it was enough to feed the whole family. And when the sprinkle of rain came, and that's all it was, I held that mushroom over my head like an umbrella. No, it did not cover my whole head. I just held it up, kind of like pretending it was an umbrella. It seemed so natural, and, of course, kids have a lot of imagination.
Regards!
rod p

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #4
I couldn't wait for that first meeting with the Reverend. After exchanging background information, we agreed to discuss various JW doctrines over a number of weekly meetings, with the first one being the Soul Doctrine. Not being a JW yet , my objective here was to put JW teachings to the test with a minister and biblical scholar. His library seemed to me to be quite impressive, especially when it came to the various books of the Bible. My modus operandi was to study the JW publications on the doctrines, and to memorize the arguments and the scriptures applicable to each topic. This would all be done at home, and then we would meet at his place and have our discussions.
When we talked about the Soul, of course, it was to prove that the bible taught that man did not have an immortal soul, but that man was a soul made out of the dust of the earth (the elements), into which God breathed into man's nostrils the "breath of life" (the life force), "and man became a living soul". Ezekiel 18:4 stated that the "Soul that sins shall die." Also, "man has no pre-eminence over the beasts. As one dieth, so dieth the other." This discussion went on for some time, and the Reverend listened attentively, and did not interrupt. In the end, he stated that the United Church Scholars had also done a lot of research on this subject, and essentially they agreed with the JW position on this subject. I went away, thrilled with the confirmation that the doctrine the JW's were teaching on the Soul was the "Truth".
I do not recall the order of the topics we discussed during subsequent meetings. One of the subjects was "Baptism by Immersion". The Reverend agreed, and said that anyone who got baptized in the United Church, while baptism by sprinkling was generally the practice, if anyone wanted to be baptized by immersion, that was perfectly OK, and they would be accommodated. Well, it made more sense to me, that if Jesus Christ was baptized by full immersion, then we should do no less. Sprinkling was just not good enough. Again, I thought the JW's taught more "Truth" than the United Church did.
At another meeting, we talked about Hell. Hell (Gehenna) was not to be taken literally when it talked about fire, and the place where "the worm dieth not", but rather symbolically. The Bible taught that Hell (Hades) was the common grave of mankind. Again, the Reverend concurred, and that their scholars basically came to the same conclusions.
On the Trinity doctrine, the idea of Three Gods in One God, did not make good or logical sense. It made a lot more sense that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were One in Purpose, rather than One in Nature, Essence or Being. While Christendom essentially teaches this concept, and the United Church is a part of this, still the Reverend did not have much to argue about respecting the JW stand on the Trinity.
When it came to the subject of Evolution, I argued that this vast and complex universe could not have come into existence from nothing and by mere random chance probability. There had to be a First Cause, and that is God. We went on to discuss some of the major premises of Evolution (eg. natural selections, survival of the fittest, mutations, missing links, etc.) and also some of the problems with carbon dating. I believed that Evolution was a false doctrine, and a throry that cannot be proven, and which required as much faith to believe in it as a Christian had to have to believe in God and the Biblical account of Creation. On this whole subject, the Reverend agreed with much about the fact that there was a God who created the Universe, but that no-one had all of the answere, and maybe God brough about Creation BY Evolution. In other words, the theory of Evolution maystill have a place in the big picture. I could see his point, but would have to think about it, and do some more research. I went home, all the more convinced that JW's had the "Truth". Still, I had doubts.
For a few weeks I attended the United Church services. I enjoyed his Sermons, and he always seemed to look at me in the audience to see how I was responding to his sermons. On one Sunday he invited me to come along with him to his 2nd Congregation in the Town of Irvine, a few miles east of Medicine Hat. I found it quite interesting, and enjoyed meeting a lot of farm people. Then the Reverend told me he was going away for a couple of weeks, and he needed someone to take his place by delivering sermons at his two congregations. He had one person for one Sunday already, and wondered if I would be willing to take the other Sunday. I agreed, and so now had to decide what the sermon should be. I had been receiving the Watchtowers and Awakes by subscription in the mail, and one of them had an article "Faith in Faith, is that Your Faith?" I felt that the United Church was too liberal and wishy-washy in their definitions of "Truth", and that their faiths should be more precisely and accurately defined. Too many people were simply going to Church and believing in Jesus Christ and their Church, yet really didn't know or understand what they believed. It became a "Faith in Faith". This article really brought the issue into focus, and basically "woke us up" to the need to define what our faith consisted of. I delivered the essence of those concepts in the sermon to those Congregations. When the Reverend returned, he advised that he received excellent reports on the responses to the sermons, and wanted to know what I said to them. I then told him about the contents.
As time went on, I expressed an interest in going to University and studying Hebrew and Greek. It would have meant that I would be doing it under the auspices or sponsorship of the United Church, and that essentially I would be in training for the Ministry. I most certainly wasn't convinced that the United Church was the be-all-and-end-all, but it would be a way for me to get into those halls of learning where I could become expert in Hebrew and Greek, which were the languages of the Bible at the time of the writing of the various books of the Bible. That way I would be equipped to understand the Bible as it was originally written, and be able to expertly decide the correct interpretations of scripture, and not have to depend on others to decide this for me.
Mom and dad knew that I had been meeting with the Reverend, and that I was attending Church on Sundays. One day, quite by surprise, I came home and found some members from the United Church visiting with mom and dad. They were talking to them, trying to get them to pledge money on a monthly basis in support of the United Church. This was all on the basis that I was attending there. This did not go over very well with mom and dad, and after that I made a decision to stop attending. They felt the Reverend was into this more for the money than anything else. Also, they said that if I became a United Church Minister, it would be quite a feather in his cap for the Reverend.
In a private conversation one night, dad told me that if I was going to go to University to become a Minister of the United Church, go ahead, but don't look to him to finance my way. I told him that I did not necessarily want to go to University to become a United Church Minister. Rather, I had to have a sponsorship from some Church to get into the religion faculty, and I wanted to study Hebrew and Greek so that in the end I would be in a position to prove from the Bible what really was the "Truth".
At that point, dad said that if I was on this great quest for "Truth" then to be fair and open and comprehensive about it, when I was done studying the Bible, I would also need to go to India and study Hinduism and Buddhism, and similarly visit other countries like China and Japan and the Continent of Africa, and study all of the other religions. Then and only then would I be in a position to decide what is the "Truth". Secretly I said to myself "Yes dad, I am willing to do even that!"
Dad then reminded me that he will die believing this (JW Teachings) was the Truth, but that he didn't have the guts to go back to it, because the minute he did, there would be a lot of conflict and arguing with Mother.
I did a lot of thinking about what dad had told me. I felt sorry for him, that he did not have the courage of his own convictions. I also thought about the fact that research showed whatever primary issues remained undealt with or left unresolved by a parent of one generation, the children usually end up having to deal with it in order to finally resolve it. I was determined to find the "Truth" and to KNOW that I had found it, even though my dad had just kind of gave up on everything!
Meanwhile, back at High School (Grade 12) there were a lot of serious subjects and exams to prepare for. I focused on that until the end of school. I began to "cool" on the idea of becoming a Minister for a Church I did not really feel committed to. This, by no means meant that I was going to abandon my search for "Truth". However, I had just completed two years of Electricity and Electronics, and had extremely high marks, and I really loved that field of endeavor. Since I was going to have to find a way to finance my own career, I applied for jobs at a couple of Banks for after, when I graduated from high school. I would save up the necessary funds to go to College or University, perhaps in the field of Electronics. At least that was the plan.
It was July 1961, only ten days out of school, and I found myself working at the Bank of Nova Scotia in downtown Medicine Hat. This was a whole new world to me, the world of Business. I had to learn bookkeeping and accounting principals, the law and economics and government and politics, and all kinds of things I knew nothing about. Most of all, I had to learn about the Banking business. I felt like a babe in the woods. My first pay cheque was $175.00 for the first month of pay.That was the first and only time I had so much money I didn't know what to do with it all. After that, I learned how to spend. For the first year I had to learn how to be a Drafts Clerk, a Ledger Keeper and a Teller. I would get a ride to work in the mornings by dad, and would catch the bus back home after work. I still lived at home with mom and dad in Redcliff.
Friday nights I would usually stay down in the Hat and take in a movie or whatever, then catch the late bus home. (Mom and dad went out Friday nights, so never had to worry about bed times.) One Friday night I wasn't doing anything, and things were kind of boring. So I wandered across the bridge and walked to the Kingdom Hall, where they were having Kingdom Ministry School. There they taught Public Speaking, and put on field service demonstrations, etc. I found it quite interesting, so started to attend regularly each Friday night. I enrolled, and started to learn public speaking (Audience contact, use of notes, gestures, subject theme emphasized, extemporaneous speaking, etc.). A number of them attended the Kingdom Hall who lived in Redcliff, and they offered to give me rides home after the meetings. After a while I started to attend Watchtower meetings on Sundays, and would get rides down to the Hall with one of the brethren in Redcliff. Then I started to attend Tuesday night bookstudies with Gerry N. and others in one of the homes. Gerry N's wife used to be active, but at a certain point decided she could not believe the teachings, and so became inactive. We became good friends, as we shared a love of music. Then I began attending Bible studies with Gerry N. on Wednesday nights. He was having these studies in the home of Brother M with his wife, a non-believer, and I simply joined them. These Bible studies were very intense. Even though they lasted only one hour, we would continue on and discuss for hours all of the various JW teachings and doctrines and bible prophesy, etc. It was like I was making up for lost time, and I'm sure Gerry N. didn't mind, because he got to report all that time on his "field service report.
The problem was, I was starting to come in at 11:00 p.m. and midnight Tuesday and Wednesday nights, while mom and dad went to bed at 10:00 p.m. Mom would lay there in bed, but would not go to sleep until after she heard the door open and me going into my bedroom. The next day, I would be given a lot of accusatory looks, because now mom was over-tired due to my coming home so late and "waking her up" when I came in the door. There would be complaints and lectures about coming in so late as well. However, now I was 18, and I was doing nothing wrong; just studying the Bible at some friends' place. I also had my own money, since I was now earning a living in a good steady job. The time for treating me like a kid was over, and she knew it. I became expert at opening the door completely silently. I knew every squeek in the floor, and how to avoid them. I could turn on the furnace with the thermostat, then sneak into the bedroom without being heard or detected. However, mom would still be miffed at that, because then she would have to stay awake even longer, and finally had to get up and check the bedroom to see if I had returned home. This was a "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situation, and I detested it. I felt persecuted by mom's attitude, thinking this was all about the fact that she couldn't stand that I was studying with JW's. (On the other hand, it could have been that she just wanted me to be home and go to bed when she did, and I never could see that as a reasonable expectation.) The tension between us started to grow and grow, and there was a very negative atmosphere around the house. And yet, when my birthday came around in April 1963, and things were very bad between us, mom got me this beautiful briefcase that I needed to do field service with. I couldn't thank her enough, and I loved her for it, yet the tension between us still persisted.
I believe it was in July of 1963 that a Convention was being held in Medicine Hat. I was approached by one Brother Ted who asked if I would like to get baptized then. I was totally surprised, but then it also made a lot of sense to me since I felt I was ready to make the commitment. So I said "Yes." Then he asked me if I would mind if they put my name in the local newspaper, as they are doing an article on the Convention, in which they mention who was baptized on that occasion. I said "OK." since I couldn't see there would be any harm in that, and I thought the only ones who would be interested in reading about that would be other Witnesses. Boy, I could not have been more wrong! Also, I never said anything to mom and dad about getting baptized, as I just thought it was an internal religious matter, and mom and dad did not really want to talk about what goes on inside the JW activities. At the Convention that weekend, I along with a few others, rose and affirmed our dedication to Jehovah, and after that were driven to the Kingdom Hall where we were all baptized by immersion. And that was it. Now I was officially a JW.
Little did I know of the storm clouds that would now be looming over the horizon as a direct result of this baptism that was reported in the local newspaper. That will be covered in the next episode, where I will talk about my life as a JW and how I got married.
LOL
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Hey People!
I haven't forgotten you.
I still have to make a living, so need to book off a few days.
Also, I have been surfing a few other good threads, and had to stick my two cents in here and there.
Will get back next week.
LOL
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #5
The phone started ringing off the hook, and mom was the one who usually answered the phone. People from all over Medicine Hat and Redcliff were calling and asking "Is that your son I read about in the paper, getting baptised as a JW?" At first mom said she didn't know anything about it because I never said anything to her. When she asked me and I confirmed that I did get baptised, she got very upset and told me about all the phone calls, and how embarrassing it all was, because she had to find out second-hand from others. I tried to apologise, explaining that I just didn't know think it was such a bid deal, and she and dad did not seeem to be interested in anything I was doing with the Witnesses. After that, things went from bad to worse.
As a JW, I settled into the work of field service. One Saturday we were in a car filled with six witnesses, travelling in the countryside and knocking on farmhouse doors. It was Magazine day, so we were offering Watchtowers and Awakes. We came to the door of a guy who despised JW's. It was my turn, and someone in the car warned me about him. I went to the door with a companion beside me. I did the talking, and introduced ourselves as "members of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society". As I was talking, I could see he was pretty agitated. He said he was not interested, so we politely left and went back to the car. As we were preparing to drive away, the guy stomped out of his house, and jumped into his pick-up truck that was parked about 30 feet from where we were. A little boy, who looked about three years old, was sitting in the dirt right behind the left rear wheel of the truck, digging with a spoon. We all sat there in our car, staring at this unbelievable scene unfolding before our eyes, as the guy backed up his truck and ran over his little boy. It happened so fast there was no time to react, and that wqs the last thing anyone would have expected. Realizing what he had just done, he immediately jumped out of his trunk, scooped up his son and jumped back in his truck, and stormed off at a high rate of speed. No doubt he was now rushing to the hospital in town. We were all pretty shook up, and I felt an overwhelming sense of guilt that maybe I had triggered the whole thing, hurting this small child. If he hated JW's before, imagine how much he hated us now. This incident haunts me to this day, and I often wonder if that boy made out OK.
A short while later, I took a one-week vacation from the bank. At the assembly where I got baptised, I had met a guy whose name was Lee H. We became friends, and he lived in the town of Brooks, about 70 miles west of Medicine Hat, and he invited me to stay at his place. I decided to go Pioneering on my one-week vacation, and so I travelled to Brooks by Greyhound bus, and stayed with my new-found friend.It was fun, and this was the first time I had ever been away from home on my own. The congregation in Brooks was small (about 40) and I found everyone quite freindly. One of the Witnesses, Otto H., was a Reflexologist, who worked from his home, and patients would book appointments in advance. This gave him a lot of flexibility, as he could set his own hours and days for working. This enabled him to do field service on other days, which is why he became a full-time Pioneer, meaning at least 150 hours of field service a month. So while Lee was at work, I went around with Otto H, pioneering together.
Brooks was a town of about 3,000 people. Within a radius of 30 miles there were a number of smaller towns, each with a population of a few hundred (some even smaller). About 15 miles north and west of Brooks were the small towns of Rosemary and Duchess. In this rural area there lived a lot of Mormons and Mennonites, and the odd Japanese Buddhist. Years earlier all this land had been given to the Canadian Pacific Railroad (CPR) by the Government of Canada. In order to develop communities all along the railroad, the CPR offered the land for sale at $1.00 per acre to anyone who was willing to become a homesteader here. This attracted a lot of people to the area. The land was a vast prairie, which meant dry-land farming. To minimize risk against crop failures, and also to increase crop yields, they built the world's longest aqueduct running from the town of Bassano 30 mile west of Brooks, running straight past Brooks, and on to the town of Tilley, some 20 miles east of Brooks. This was built in the 1920's, and in its day, was an engineering marvel. This allowed the whole region to be irrigated with a reliable and controlled water supply. The Bow River wound south from the City of Calgary, which then fed into this aqueduct. Every so many miles the water would be released into head-ditches, which would feed down main canals, and then branch off to the various sections of farmland. This whole area became known as the Eastern Irrigation District (E.I.D.) and geographically was called the County of Newell. In the early years, when Brooks was first established, the town was named after its first Mayor- Mr. Brooks, who imported all kinds of trees and plants and planted them in the area. That is why Brooks and the surrounding area is so beautiful with countless deciduous trees everywhere you look, like an oasis in the desert.
This is where I did my Pioneering work. A number of JW's lived on farms in the County, and would drive into Brooks for the meetings at the Kingdom Hall. I was able to visit a number of these people on their farms. This brought back memories of my childhood when I lived on the farm with the Fishers. I fell in love with the area! As we knocked on doors, I met a number of Mennonites who, while they were polite, they were just not interested in listening to the messages of JW's. Mormons, however, loved to get into discussions. At one door, I met a Noel C. who was a school teacher, married with a family, and a former Mormon missionary. He was very well-versed in the Bible, and was very skilled in debating. He listened to my presentation (I was alone at his door.) Suddenly, he asked me where I got my authority to preach, because unless I could demonstrate that I had that authority, I had no right to be going around preaching religion to others. I told him this was a very good subject, and would like to come back again when we could discuss this matter more thoroughly. The truth was, I needed to be better prepared when up against someone with this level of knowledge and sophistication at articulating his points of view. Of course, as a JW, we relied on the Bible as God's Word, which would lead us to an understanding of the "Truth" The Bible was our authority, because we were preaching what the Bible said. At a subsequent meeting with Noel C. I explained our position on Authority. What he then told me, threw me for a loop. He said that there are many religions preaching and teaching from that same book, the Bible. Also, there are hundreds of translations of the Bible, and they don't all agree on every verse, especially those that have doctrinal implications. How then, can you be sure that you have the correct interpretation of Scripture? How do you know for sure that the other guy, or the other Church doesn't have the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, on this or that doctrine? Isn't it just a matter of opinion or debate as to who is right and who is wrong? On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that your Church was given the Authority from God to act or speak in His Name, then and only then, can you know that your interpretation is correct. I told him that the Bible teaches "By their fruits you shall know them." He countered that there are many Churches with many men and women who have the Christian "fruits" (faith, hope and charity, etc.) and live exemplary lives that would rival any of the JW's. So this is not necessarily a proof of Authority. Noel C. went on to explain that it was the Priesthoold that was the Authority from God. In Old Testament days, they had the Aaronic Priesthood, and the Priesthhod after the order of Melchizedek. One would not dare to speak for God unless one was ordained of the Priesthood. This was a very sobering experience for me, and left me baffled. What if he was right? I would have to dig into this subject further, to not only prove that Mormons did not have that authority, but that JW's did. I knew it was going to take some time to resolve this issue, and I only had a one-week vacation, and all my books were at home.
Anyway, one day we paid a visit to the farm of the "D. family" They were devout JW's, although the parents originally had been "converts". At the time, they had one daughter, age 18, and four younger brothers, all being raised in the "Truth". They attended school in the town of Rosemary, two miles from the farm. They were the only JW's in the school, where a couple of Buddhist kids also attended. The rest of the kids were either Mennonite or Mormon. The "D" kids often felt singled out and picked on by a lot of the Mormon kids, who behaved like "brats", and thought they were "It!". This made them stick together as JW's, and they were very loyal to the Watchtower Society.
I was very attracted to this young girl, a couple of years younger than me.They had a big party at the farm on the weekend, and pretty well the whole congrgation showed up. We had a ball. During the day the farmhand, Ed P., who lived there on the farm with his wife and two sons, came in from the field riding on this beautiful brown horse. He told me her name was Jeannie, and she was a very gentle horse, and I could ride her if I wanted to. He instructed me on the signals for "stop" and "go", left and right turns pulling on the reins, and how to ride in the saddle. I was dressed in my 3-piece banker's suit, with cuff-links in my shirt. I mounted up on Jeannie, and away we went. The only problem was, the stirrups were too long for my feet to reach comfortably. I could reach them only if I stood up in the saddle, when my toes could just touch the stirrups. We got out in the field, and Jeannie went from a walk to a trot. I told her "Whoah!", but she then went into a gallup, and then a full gallup. I was bouncing up and down in the saddle, and started to panic. I grabbed the reins, and pulled as hard as I could, and yelled "Whoooaaaah!" Except, I had only grabbed on to the left rein, so Jeannie thought I was signalling a left turn. I didn't know a horse could make a 90 degree turn that fast while galluping full tilt. As she swerved left, I went straight up in the air, and then straight down, and made a one-point landing on my butt. It knocked the wind out of me, and I landed so hard, the two cuff-links fell right out of my shirt. Don't ask me how! I looked down the field and saw Jeannie half a mile away, still galloping as hard as she could along the fenceline. I limped back to the farmhouse, and explained what happened. Ed P. went out and retrieve the horse. That was the last time I ever rode a horse. Still, all in all, we had a lot of fun on the farm that weekend. At the end of my vacation, I have to say it was a memorable experience, and I made a lot of new friends. I promised to write this pretty young girl I just met when I got back home. Her name was June D.
Now back home and at work, I was working as a Teller. I was having a lot of difficulty balancing my Cash at the end of each day. My bank manager had read in the paper about my JW baptism, and was very upset. I discovered his distaste for JW's when he called me into his office and asked if I had really become a JW. When I told him "Yes", he told me about a Church where the members allow themselves to be bitten by snakes, and then pray to God to get healed. "You can't tell me that is Religion!" he asserted. "And this standing on the street corners with Watchtowers and Awakes! Don't tell me that is Religion!" I could have argued this from the Bible, about how Jesus commanded his followers to preach the gospel, etc. But he was my Boss, and he was angry, so I just kept quiet. He finished his lecture, told me to think about it, and let me back to my work. Now, as I was having so much troubled balancing my daily Cash, he blamed the JW religion as the reason. He told the branch accountant that I wasn't concentrating on my work, because my head was thinking too much about religion.This wasn't true, of course. I just couldn't get things to balance. The accountant looks at your journal sheet daily, and if you're out, would try to help you find the differences. If you were short, the bank would charge you for the shortfall. They would record this on a ledgersheet in your name, and then deduct payments from your pay cheques to repay the Cash Shorts. One day, when I had another Cash Short, the Manager called the accountant into his office and told him "Let's fire him!" The accountant refused. The manager asked him "Why?" He said, "I lost nine brothers in the war fighting for our freedom of speech and religion, and it's people like you who will try to take it all away!" The accountant left his office, went to me and helped me find the difference. He told me what happened, and said "He's out to get you, you know." I continued on, trying very hard each day to balance, and did significantly improve.
Finally they took me off "Cash" and put me in the Loans and Discounts department. Suddenly the world of banking opened up to me, and I began to see the "bigger picture". Things clicked! I felt happy in my job, and knew I could succeed. A day came when they transferred one of the tellers to another city, so that our branch was short one teller. Wouldn't you know it, they put me back on "Cash". I groaned! But at the end of Day 1- "Sight balance." (meaning cash was balanced right off in 15 minutes, no recounts). Day 2- "Sight balance." Day after Day, this kept happening. It was amazing. "Very few tellers could achieve that" I was told. The bank manager later commented that every once in a while someone comes along who has trouble in one department. You take them off that department and put them in another, and they do well. Then you put them back where they were having trouble, and suddenly they "take off" with success. He said I must be one of them. He asked me if I was still a JW, and I told him I was.
One day a Western Canada Staff Department Supervisor visited the Branch. He interviewed us all one by one. In my interview, I explained some of the problems I was having at home, and that I was now older and needed to get out on my own. He smiled and said "Well, Rod, we'll see what the Bank can do for you." In two weeks my bank manager received a letter stating that I was being transferred out to the Airdrie Branch, about 20 miles north of Calgary, Alberta. I was to relieve the "Chief Clerk" (Branch Accountant) for one month, while he was away on holidays, and after that, I was to be transferred in to a downtown branch in Calgary. I was jubilant. Now it could never be said that I moved out of our home because of the JW Religion; the Bank had transferred me out, so I had to leave.
Obviously, I needed a car. My uncle had an old 1949 Ford parked out in his field. He sold it to me for $150.00. I was ready to face the world! I remember driving down that Trans-Canada Highway to my new home in Airdrie. It was very exciting, and I couldn't wait. Whenever a staff member gets transferred, the bank manager writes a letter to the manager of the branch where you are going to, with a copy to the District Staff Department. The branch accountant told me he read the letter, and commented that he had never seen a better letter of recommendation on file in all his years of banking. I guess he must have gotten over his hatred toward me as a J.W.
A few months earlier, I started writing letters to June D from the farm. She had graduated from Grade 12, and now wanted to go to post-seconday school to get training to become a Secretary. She decided to move to Medicine Hat and go to business college there. I helped her find a place to live. Would you believe it was the home of Grandma Fisher from the old farm, and who I studied with in High School. We began to see each other regularly, and we attended meetings together, and went out in field service together. We fell deeply in love, and we were planning to get married. But now I was being transferred out by the bank. This left June feeling pretty alone and kind of isolated, because I was her close companion.
When in Airdrie, and later Calgary, I would travel 180 miles from Calgary to Medicine Hat every weekend. I would stay with mom and dad, but spent most of the time with June. Soon the day came when June had completed her courses in Secretarial School, and now was ready to get a job. That summer we went to the International Convention in Pasedena, California. I had arranged a two-week holiday with the Bank. We all went to Pasedena with the D Family. I remember how we were all crammed into their stationwagon. It was a great trip, and we enjoyed the Assembly, but it was very hot there. By the end of the week we were all sick of Mexican food, and couldn't wait to get home for some roast beef and mashed potatoes smothered in brown gravy. After that, June moved to Calgary, and in due time got a Secretarial job, and took board and room at the home of the Congregation Overseer and his family. I was staying at the home of an elderly sister as well, with room and board. So now we were both living in Calgary, and looking forward to the big day when we would get married.
We settled into a routine, attending meetings, giving talks and going out in field service. I bought her a ring, and we celebrated our engagement. We planned a wedding for May 1964, which was less than a year away. One Saturday morning June and I went out in field service, making short presentations and offering magazines. There was only half an hour available, so in order to cover the entire block, June went one way and I went the other, and we were to meet each other on the other side of the block. June ended up on this one doorstep where she had a very interesting discussion with a guy who happened to be Mormon. His name was John C., and he was married with three kids, and also had a brother who was JW in Edmonton, Alberta. He therefore, was very familiar with JW teachings.
Because "Magazine Day" called for short presentations, June suggested we set up a meeting for another day, and she would introduce John C to me. The following week we did the visit, and we found the family very friendly. John and I hit it off immediately. At this meeting we set up the "ground rules" for later discussions. We decided to have a series of weekly discussions, and for each meeting we would focus on a single topic or doctrine. We also agreed to use the King James version of the Bible. We further agreed that we would listen to one another's presentations without interruption, after which we could ask questions and debate the subject. Looking at the list of topics, we tried to find a doctrine where Mormons and JW's differed the most. The most obvious was the "Soul Doctrine", because the JW's taught that when we die, we do not have a spirit or soul that leaves the body and lives on after death, whereas Mormons believed that we do. After the meeting, we went home, and I prepared for the next meeting. I was absolutely convinced we could prove from the Bible that we do not have an immortal soul, and that when we die, we do not live on as a spirit. At the next meeting, I proceeded to quote Ezekiel 18:4 "...the Soul that sinneth, it shall die". Then Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."So God created man from the "dust of the earth" - the elements, and breathed into man the "breath of life"- the life force, and it was this that made man a "living soul". You "are a Soul" NOT you "have a Soul". We got into Hebrew and Greek words for soul and spirit and talked about ruah, pneuma, psuche, nephesh, etc. We looked at scriptures that showed no man has an immortal soul. I Corinthians 15: 53, 54 talks of mortal man putting on immortality. I Timothy 6:16 says "who only hath immortality" referring to the Lord God. Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 ".....a man hath no preeminence above a beast....All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again". The Bible uses the word "Soul"over 8,000 times, and speaks of it as dieing, being killed or captured, being weak or hungry, and all kinds of other attributes that show man is a soul, and it is not immortal. How then, can the Mormon Church be true? This was the thrust of the argument.
John C. agreed that in all these places, the use of the word "Soul" is in the context of man being a soul, but that none of these passages can be regarded as relevant to the doctrine of the soul, as they in now way speak about the nature of man. It is true that man is mortal, meaning he dies, and he seeks immortality, which means afterwards he would no longer be subject to death. But this does not address the question of the Nature of Man.
In terms of what happens when we die, when God created Adam, Genesis talks about him being made of the dust of the earth, and God bretehd nto his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living soul. This is talking about the Creation of man's body, and the breath of life that makes the living soul alive. But this does not necessarily prove that a spirit could not or does not inhabit the body. (Mormons believe in the preexistence of the spirti, that we were spirit children in Heaven before we came to earth to experience mortality and to obtain a physical body.) John asked me to consider Jeremiah 1: 1, 4-5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I santified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." John asked "How can someone be foreordained if he did not yet exist? Some argue that this is about the foreknowledge of God, but that is a weak argument."
Then there is Ecclesiastes 12:
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
"If the spirit returns to God at death, surely the Bible is teaching that man has more than just the "breath of life" or "life force"
As we finished that meeting, it began to dawn on me that the Bible does not make its teachings clear and concise in every instance, but can be subjected to different interpretations. Even though we were in two different religious camps, believing the same book "the Bible", yet it was obvious we are believing diametrically opposite beliefs on the same doctrine using the same book to "prove" our respective interpretations. What is wrong with this picture?
A number of other meetings were subsequently held. We discussed the Trinity Doctrine on one occasion, and while there were differences, Mormons and JW's both disagree with the concept of "Three Gods in One God". However, JW's teach that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah's "activating force" whereas Mormons say the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct personage, but does not have a body, while God the Father and Jesus Christ both have a body. They are "One" in terms of "Purpose" rather than in "Nature". This was a discussion that could go on for hours, maybe even days. We would never be able to fully resolve the differences one way or another, and it is a subject that can get extremely complicated. Christendom calls the "Trinity" a "Mystery" that we mere mortals simply cannot comprehend.
In another meeting we talked about the Hell doctrine, and we agreed that the Bible speaks symbolically about Hell, and that there is no such thing as a fiery, burning hell where we are literally burned and tortured forever in such a place.
John did tell us about the Joseph Smith story and the Book of Mormon, but we just weren't ready to accept this as true. We did take turns going to one another's meetings. One week John came to the Kingdom Hall and listened to a Watchtower study. The next week June and I went with John to a Mormon Church called a Ward, and we experienced a Sacrament Meeting and a Sunday School session, and I also went to one of their Elders' Quorum meetings. June was not very keen on going to a Mormon Church, but reluctantly went along anyway.
Time was marching on, and the meetings reached a kind of hiatus. We were getting closer to the time for the wedding, and John and his family were moving back to Penticton in B.C., so we would not be seeing each other in the forseeable future. I was not too thrilled with the $275.00 a month I was earning at the bank, so looked for a job elsewhere and found one as an assistant accountant with the Canadian Bronze Company. The company sold brass and bronze merchandise, and repaired and electroplated car bumpers that had been damaged in car accidents. They started me off at $300.00 a month. I now felt we were better prepared to live as a married couple and be able to cover our living costs. June was not going to be working at a job, so this would be our sole family income.
Now it was time to concentrate on plans for the wedding. We decided to have a "garden wedding" on the farm of June's family. I checked with the Weather Bureau for some historical data as to what the weather had been like over the years on the weekend of May 16, and statistically it looked quite promising. However, if the weather did turn out to be bad, we needed to be ready with alternate plans for an "indoor wedding". My dad said we had to be the world's "biggest optimists" planning for an outdoor wedding in May. It was not unusual around the Province of Alberta for there to be rain or snow at that time of year. Anyway, on the day of the wedding, the weather turned out to be bright and sunny, warm and very still. Some flowers were in bloom, and spring was definitely in the air. It could not have been better. The wedding was a beautiful success. The reception and dance was held in a rented hall in Brooks. At about 10:30 that night, we changed into clothes that were more comfortable, said our last goodbyes on the dance floor, and drove off into the night, back to Calgary and into our new apartment we had just rented. Half-way home, we ran into a very big snowstorm, and thought we weren't going to make it. Talk about how close this came to ruining the outdoor wedding. We considered ourselves very fortunate indeed!
After our one-week honeymoon, we settled down into married life. Everything was beautiful, and we were very happy. Or so we thought..........
................................................................to be continued.

Jaypeeto
Jaypeeto 11 years ago

I too got involved with the Mormons (actually got baptized by them) for several months before eventually becoming a Christian. Nice people, but I just couldn't stomach the doctrine that God the father has a flesh & bones body AND a heavenly literal WIFE up there, from whom our spirits were all born before we came to earth to get a body. Also couldn't take the teaching that God the Father (Elohim) actually came down to earth and, well, fertilized the Virgin Mary so that Jesus was eventually born. I'll say this for them, they are a much more charitable organization than the Witnesses ever will be. Love, Jaypeeto

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



To Jaypeeto:
Sorry to hear about your nervous breakdown over the JW thing. I believe that one of the reasons people get to such a state inside the JW Organization (and many other religions or cults as well) is that people who are attracted to faith and religion are usually much more sensitive than most. This is because they aspire towards being loving, meek, gentle and peaceful, and strive to be good and try to be "more perfect". They are not equipped to handle pressures and censorship and disapprovals and chastisements and crises. And when you are a JW, they are your whole life, your whole support network. If you lose that support, it can lead to some very real mental, psychological and spiritual dilemmas, even breakdowns.
I know that a lot of Mormon teachings can be a real struggle to accept. Stay tuned, and I will share with you why Mormons accept these things by faith, often quite readily, and how I ended up questioning the entire system.
My struggle in faith and religion has never been over the sincere, well-meaning followers of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons. My beefs have always focused on the Leadership, the ones that teach and control all this, while you and I are virtually expected to just blindly accept it, and don't question and challenge anything, and pretty well keep your mouth shut or else there will be some real consequences to follow. In other words, never question their Authority....or else!
I see by your "Profile" that you spent time with the Presbyterians and more recently became affiliated with the Catholic Church. Before I became a Mormon, I delved into the Catholic Church to quite an extent. It became an issue of Mormons vs. Catholics. You may find this of interest in one of my upcoming Episodes (soon to come).
I hope you are finding life peaceful, enjoyable and fulfilling these days.
LOL,
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #6
One weekend there was a Calgary District Assembly which the wife and I attended. There was a talk on a Saturday morning after which we prepared to do field service. There were a number of us who got together in a car pool, and we were going to go to a territory in our 1949 Ford and offer magazines. One young lady asked if she could please join us, to which we said "Yes." I immediately saw two "Elders" come up to her, pull her aside, and proceed to scold her for talking to us, since it turned out she was disfellowshipped. She apologized, and just stood there crying, while looking at us longingly. I looked back at her, lip-synching "I'm sorry!", and away we went. I remember feeling very sorry for her, being all alone and trying to reach out for some companionship. I could feel her pain, and it just didn't feel right to treat anyone that way. It was hard to comprehend that this was "love" from Jehovah's "Loving Organization". This was the first time I actually watched Disfellowshipment in action, and I was not impressed.
In the congregation we attended, I was appointed as Magazine-Territory Servant. My predecessor told me that much needed to be done to organize things, and that some existing territories were too small, while others were way too big for one or two persons to take care of effectively. The first thing I did was go to City Hall and purchase two sets of large-scale maps of the whole downtown area, since these were the boundaries of our congregation. Every single block was shown in detail, even the individual Lots within each block, all of the road allowances and, of course, all the streets and avenues were clearly named. Then we walked around every block and counted the individual residences and businesses. Also, the downtown core had a number of high-rise apartments, and these too were quantified. From there, we were able to determine the appropriate size and boundaries for each territory. Then I mounted one of the maps on a large 4 ft. by 8 ft. board, and drew outlines around each territory which were quite visible from 6 ft. away. Now when someone came to me for a territory, they could easily point out the one they wanted, and then receive the assignment. With the second map, I cut up the individual territories and mounted them on cards, gave them a territory number (which I also inserted on the Big Board Map), and put them in a Card File Box in numerical order. This whole project probably took about 60 - 70 hours work over the course of a month. This whole system was designed to allow individuals to select a territory, receive their assignment and get a copy of their own territory map, while at the same time keeping a record on hand as to who had which territory at any point in time, much like a public library handles books for check-ins and check-outs. This seemed to work quite well, and everyone seemed happy with the system. Then the Circuit Servant visited the congregation. He interviewed each one in a position of leadership. When he looked at the Magazine-Territory Servant, and the way things had been done, his advice was "Your time would have been better spent out in the field service." I did not say anything, but the lesson I learned was "Never do your best at anything, unless it has to do with field service."
After a few months went by, we were visiting the wife's parents on the farm. We were told that the farm-hands were let go, and the sons were old enough now to handle all the work. This left the house they were living in vacant. It was an opportunity for us to live on the farm, a kind of childhood dream come true for me, and a chance for June to be close to her parents and brothers. At the time I had a job interview with a lawyer in Brooks (15 miles from the farm) and he needed an office accountant, and would also train the person he hired on how to do legal collections. He offered me the position with the same income I was earning in Calgary plus commissions on amounts I could bring in from collections. We were very excited, and a month later we moved to the farm. I drove to-and-from work. And, of course, we're now living where a lot of Mormons are too. We all felt very close to each other, like one big happy family!
In field service I encountered a number of these Mormons and had a number of intereesting discussions with them. The questions of having the Authority to Preach came up a lot, so decided to pursue this whole matter. Over the years I had collected a lot fo the older Watchtowers and Awakes, books and booklets, etc, including material from the Rutherford and Russell eras. Then along came the 30-year comprehensive Index to Watchtower Publications. With this tool, I was able to research pretty well any question or topic and find it from the publications that were on hand. When it came to Mormonism and the question of Authority, I was able to find pretty well anything the Society had written on these topics. Of course, Mormons are not the only ones to claim an exclusive authority from God. The Catholic Church makes it s claim to that Authority on the basis of Apostolic Succession. "Thou art Peter (petros), and upon this Rock (petra) I will build my church."
Why was the question of Authority becoming such a priority to me? A few years earlier, back in Medicine Hat, there was an assembly at which the booklet "The Word, Who is He According to John?" was released. Around about this time, there was an article in the Watchtower about "Subjection to Superior Authorities", based on the scripture at Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God." (KJV)
Back in the time of Rutherford and the Second World War, there were a lot of male JW's who ended up in court for not going to war. As a defense, these Witnesses used the scripture at Romans 13:1. The Governing Body's interpretation at the time was that these "Higher Powers" (or what the JW's now called the "Superior Authorities") were none other than Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. In other words, this was their justification for taking their stand against the war. Their subjection was to Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, and NOT to the earthly governments and rulers, or civil authority. The courts brought in members of the clergy, experts in the languages of the Bible and interpretation of scripture, who pointed out that the "Higher Powers" in this scripture were, in fact, the earthly govenments and rulers, and therefore when that authority tells you to go to war against tyranny, then we should obey. But the JW's, of course, were not going to accept their interpretation, because these clergy were part of the world-wide empire of false religion known as "Babylon the Great", and were in the hands of Satan the Devil, the god of this world or "System of Things". And so these JW brethren went to jail.
Now fast forward about 20 years,. Now the Governing Body has this "New Truth" that the "Higher Powers" (or "Superior Authorities" in the NWT) are, in fact, the earthly governments and rulers, and NOT Jehovah God and Christ Jesus as they had taught previously. They then went on to quote other scriptures to show that our subjection to these "Superior Authorities" is a Relative Subjection, so that our subjection can only be so long as their laws do not conflict with God's laws. To the extent man's laws are in conflict with God's laws, then in such instances we must obey God's higher laws rather than that of the Superior Authorities. But this does NOT deal with the real issue here. Nobody, including the clergy, would argue that where men's laws are in contradiction of God's higer laws, we must obey God's before man's laws. However, the question I had at the time, and still have, is: How is it that these so-called evil clergy, as part of this "Babylon the Great", this world-wide empire of false religion under the control of Satan the Devil, possessed this "New Truth" years in advance.of the Governing Body who Jehovah supposedly inspired and revealed this New Truth exclusively to them? Is the Devil revealing Truth to his clergy years in advance of Jehovah revealing the same Truth to his Faithful and Discreet Servant, the Governing Body? Impossible!!! The real Truth is, the Society was wrong in the first place, and then later had to correct their interpretation of scripture, which was simply a "catch-up" to what the clergy and Biblical schollars already knew years earlier. And this is only ONE example of many that could be cited to demonstrate the problem with the Governing Body's claim to "progressive revelation".
After having had quite a few discussions with Mormons along the way, it was becoming clear that one did have to have proper and legitimate Authority to act and preach in the name of God. This would serve as a sign, a proof, that you were receiving and being taught the correct interpretation of scripture, insofar as it is correctly translated. I had learned that merely appealing to the Bible itself to "prove" what the Bible teaches is a fallacy that cannot be successfully maintained. Here's why: Suppose you had two persons of equal intelligence (say 190 I.Q.) who took the identical scripture that had doctrinal implications. Give them the same library research materials, and give them the same amount of time (say 6 months). However, one individual belongs to one religion, and the second belongs to another religion, and these two religions teach opposing interpretations on that particular scripture. So these people, having faith in the Bible and in the teachings of their respective churches, begin to do their research. However, they tend to start from the position of their own Church, and then go on to try to prove it true. In other words, "Believing is seeing!" Because they believe a certain way to begin with, their research efforts will tend to be from the standpoint of proving "true" the very interpretation of their own Church. So at the end of six months, you put these two individuals in a room and let them debate the issue. In the end, each one will think and believe they are right and the other person is wrong, so that neither one "proves" anything to anyone. And even if one person did convince the other person that his/her interpretation was right and the other person's was wrong, what would this prove? It would simply show that the one person was perhaps a little more skilled in debating over the other person. In the final analysis, it proves absolutely nothing of a certainty, except that there is a difference of opinion. We may well be simply fooling ourselves that we have the infallibly correct interpretation of scripture. The fact that there are so many different religions that believe in the same book, the Bible, and yet doctrinally disagree with each other, certainly demonstrates that we need more than just the Bible itself to arrive at the "whole Truth" and "nothing but the Truth" from the Bible. The sad part is, that there are quite a number of these "Christian" churches or organizations that say your very own Eternal Salvation rests upon you making the right decision about embracing the "Truth" from the Bible. Which "Truth"? God help the human race if eternal Salvation is dependent upon our intellectual capacity and prowess!
True Story: There was one woman years ago who became what is known as a "Professional Joiner". She had listened to the messages of truth from the Bible from representatives of several professed Christian organizations. They all told her she needed to make a choice, and her eternal salvation depended upon it. She could not make up her mind who was right and who was wrong. So she joined all these different Churches, and belonged to all of them at the same time. When asked why she did that, she replied that she did not want to make the wrong choice, so if she joined all of them, then surely one of them would be the Right Church, and so her Eternal Salvation would be assured. How funny! How sad!
And I was beginning to discover from experience that there were quite a number of teachings from the Watchtower Society that were debatable, even questionable. Of course, that made me guilty of "independent thought", which is not allowed. How dare you question the Governing Body?
Speaking of questioning doctrines. As an example, there is the "Soul Doctrine" which I talked about in a previous episode. One thing that did not make sense to me was" If, when we die, we go out of existence, our bodies go back to the "dust of the earth" and our "spirit" or "life force" goes back to the God who gave it. The publications taught that everything that was "US" when we were alive,our personality, our memories of all our experiences, etc. goes back to Jehovah God who has a perfect memory or recollection of all that we were. Then, in the resurrection, God makes a new body, and implants everything of his memory of us from when we were alive into that new body, and this then becomes "You" in resurrected form. But this really ISN'T "You"; it is only a duplicate, a replica, a "clone" of you. The real "You" went out of existence when you died. So, once you go out of existence thru death, what do you care whether you get resurrected or not? I mean really, why should you even care? And why even worry whether you are going to make it thru the Battle of Armageddon and into God's New World? When you die, you no longer exist! That's why I began to seriously doubt the Watchtower Society's teaching on the doctrine of the Soul. If there is an after-life, then there simply MUST be a continuity of existence. Annhilation just makes no sense to me!
These are the seed thoughts that were simmering on the back-burners of my brain, and were starting to percolate to the surface, motivating me to try and answer the question: Which religion has the true Authority from God to act and speak in His Name? Find the answer to that, and I will find the religion or channel thru which God is revealing the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, thru their inspired leaders.
In my next Episode, I will try to explain how I dealt with this whole issue, and where this led me to as a consequence.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #7
I looked around the world of Christendom, asking the question "Who has dealt with the question of Authority in relation to understanding and interpreting scripture?"
Protestantism, in its many forms and sects, essentially held the view that the Bible itself was that authority. If you want to know the truth from God, you need only to look it up in the Bible, and it will reveal the truth from God. In other words, the Bible interprets itself. The W.T. essentially held this same view, except that they would line up all these doctrines, and then quote all these scriptures using their own interpretations of them, and then say "See, this is what the Bible says, and so all the other churches are wrong because they are not teaching these same truths from the Bible. What a ludicrous and circular argument that is! The fallacy of this "Bible only" theory is that there are just too many Protestant religions and sects teaching different interpretations on the same scriptures, even to the point of breaking away from their parent organizations, only to form yet another Church. The main Protestant groups maintain that "we may disagree on a lot of the smaller points, but when it comes to the primary tenets of Christianity, we are all in basic agreement with one another." Yet, when you examine this more closely, you discover there are some very real and significant differences that continue to keep them apart rather than unite them. This is reminiscent of the "Chaos of the Cults" one religous writer once wrote a book about. They cannot all be right together. So to me, the "Bible only" as a way to accurately interpret the scriptures therein is simply a notion that cannot and does not successfully hold up in fact and in truth.
The next thing I looked at was the Catholic Church. They claimed that theirs was the one true Church of Christ on the earth. Here's why:
Matthew 16:13-19 (KJV)
vs.13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
vs.14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some Elias: and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
vs.15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
vs.16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
vs.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven
vs.18 And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter ("Petros" or Rock- Greek- masculine), and on this rock ("Petra"- Greek feminine) I will build my church, and the gates of hell ("hades") shall not prevail against it.
vs.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The Catholic Church interprets Matthew 16:18 that Peter was the Rock upon which Jesus Christ would build his church. That was why Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter (Petros- the Rock) and it was on this Rock (Petra) that Jesus would build his church. Protestants have argued that this can't mean Peter, because Petros was a maculine form of Rock, whereas Petra was the feminine form of Rock. Catholics, however, say Jesus had to use Petros the masculine form for Peter since he was a man. On the other hand, Petra, the feminine form had the meaning of a rock that was immovable, firmly embedded, whereas Petros meant a rock that was hewn out of a mountain, implying unstable. So the change in gender does not discount the interpretation that Peter was the Rock upon which Jesus built his church.
Now from this doctrine came the teaching of Apostolic Succession. In other words, there would be 12 apostles who would stand at the head of the Church, and Peter had the first or leading position amongt them. He was their head, and thus he was referred to as the First Bishop or "Pope". Peter was the first Pope at the head of Christ's Church on earth. And someone must always be in that position, because if there wasn't this succession and continuity then "the gates of hell" would prevail against Jesus' Church, and that would make Christ's promise a lie. To illustrate this succession, they quote Acts 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles" (KJV) (Lots were like small stones or pebbles, which were typically used to ascertain God's will. It would be like "rolling the dice" and watching the outcome.) So when one apostle died, another person would take his place. This "Apostolic Succession" operated in the "Council of the Cardinals" down thru the centuries to this very day. In the end, Catholics argue that they are the oldest church that has been around since the time of Christ, and have continued on without interruption until today, and so the gates of hell have not prevailed against Christs Church.
There have been good Popes and there have been bad Popes. Do bad Popes prove that this is NOT the true church? Let's look at the following parable of Jesus at Luke 13:47-49 (KJV):
vs.47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.
vs.48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
vs.49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.
So, according to the parable, the kingdom of God on earth (as represented by his Church) is like a net of good and bad fishes. (This means bad members of the Church, even bad Popes). When the net is full, the fishermend go ashore, and separate the good fish from the bad fish, or keep the good ones and throw away the bad. At the time of the "end of the world" the angels will come and separate the good from the bad. It is God who will do the judging and the separating, Not Man.
Now when the head of the Church stands in his official capacity as the Chief Bishop or Pope (like Peter was the head in his day) and pronounces the will of God, or interprets the scriptures, he is given the divine protection and guidance of the the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he cannot err, or make mistakes. He is "infallibly correct" precisely because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hence arose the doctrine of Papal Infallibility. It does not mean the Pope has to be perfect, or can't make mistakes. So many people do not understand this Catholic teaching. The word "Catholic" by the way, simply means "Universal"- the "Universal Church of Jesus Christ" for all mankind. Why then, do so many people say the words "Catholic Church" like it leaves a bad taste in their mouths?
Protestants, of course, will not accept the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18. The Church of Christ does not rest its foundation on a mere man. They regard the Rock as "the faith which Peter confessed" or that the "Spiritual Rock" is actually Jesus Christ himself, and after his death and resurrection "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the Christ)."
When verse 19 speaks of giving unto Peter "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" the Catholic Church sees this as being given the "authority to act in the name of the Lord thru his Church.....And whatsoever they shall bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven. This authority gives them the right and the power to bind and loose. Protestants, of course, reject this. They see the keys of the kingdom as being doctrine and discipline, which are to be found in God's word, the Bible.
Feeling that I was on the right track, I began to study the teachings of the Catholic Church in earnest. I ordered some 75 booklets from the Knights of Columbus, which dealt with just about everything concerning their doctrines and teachings. In addition, there were about another 30 books on Catholic teachings that covered things in much more depth. Now there was no way I was going to do all this at home. I was still a practicing J.W. and my wife and her family were very active with meetings and field service, and it was expected that I would carry on as per normal. They did not yet know the "Crisis of Faith" I had now entered into. That was why I had the books shipped to the law offices in Brooks where I worked. As for studying, this was done during lunch hours, coffee breaks and "overtime periods". It was a race against time. And in the process I was discovering that the W.T. had written a lot of things about the Catholic teachings that were simply not true, which made my struggle to believe what they said even harder to believe or accept. They had lost all credibility with me.
After a few months, we received a letter in the mail from John C., the Mormon family we had studied with in Calgary, but who were now living in Penticton, British Columbia, over 800 miles away. His wife was in the hospital, about to have a baby. John C. gave us a progress report on what they were doing, and wondered what we were up to. At the same time, I was becoming pretty convinced the Catholic Church was true. I had also reached the point where I could NOT continue to live and function as an active J.W. I confessed to my wife and family, and they were pretty shocked. How could I believe in such a wicked and evil and corrupt church? Look at its history, its Inquisitions, its Crusades, all the wars they were involved with, etc., etc. "The kingom of God is like a net with both Good and Bad fishes." It was the Authority to act in the name of God that was the key, and the only way we could possibly solve the problem of Biblical interpretation. I brought all the Catholic publications home and continued to study them openly, much to their chagrine.
They put a lot of pressure on me to reconsider. They talked about the consequences that would follow if I became a Catholic- the disfellowshiping, the losing of my family and so on. I relented, and gave in and gave up. They told me that if I was sincere and not going to become Catholic, then I should burn all their books. I told them that burning all their books was no different than what the Catholic Church did from time to time- burn all the books to protect everyone from so-called heresies and heretics. This is the kind of thing the W.T. publications had complained about respecting the Catholic Church, and also that they tell their members not to read any literature from outside their church, a kind of censureship. So, it's not O.K. for them to do this, but it is O.K. for J.W.'s to do this. They told me that we are all free to read anything, but in my case, since it was shipwrecking my faith, I should burn them as a protection for my faith. I relented, and gave in, and gave up once more, because I did not want to lose my family. So on Saturday morning we went outside in the farmyard to the pit where previous fires had been lit, and I piled all the Catholic books and publications there and lit a match. I stood there watching them burn, ostensibly to make sure the fire didn't spread, but with tears secretly rolling down my cheeks. This was all so very wrong!
While my faith was pretty shaky, even destroyed, as a J.W., we continued to attend meetings and go out in field service as a family. But underneath it all, my heart was just not in it. In spite of all this, I was still thinking seriously about joining the Catholic Church. (I must admit, however, there were things about Catholic history that really bothered me.)
As I stated earlier, we received a letter from John C. I decided to write him back, which I did from work. I told him that I was thinking about joining the Catholic Church, and told him why as per above. He wrote back, saying that when he read my letter he nearly "fell out of his truck". Anyway, he offered to correspond in the mail where the challenge would be the question of Authority, but this time it would be the Catholic Church vs. the Mormon Church. I wrote back, agreeing with him, since I also thought this would become a very good testing grounds for my belief that the Catholic Church had the authority to act in the name of God.
Shortly thereafter I received some pamphlets in the mail (at the office) along with the Book of Mormon. There was also a pamphlet that talked about the strength of the Mormon position, which I am now going to share with you here, as copied from the internet:
The Strength of the Mormon Position
Author: the late Elder Orsen F. Whitney, of the Council of the 12 Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
The author related the following incident under the heading "A Catholic Utterance"
Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at this tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me "You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't got a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."
So there it was- the great question: Who has the Authority? With this in mind, I launched into a serious study of the Mormon Church. I felt that I had by this time, arrived at a fairly good understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church, so now I needed to get a good insight on the teachings of the Mormon Church. The pamphlets were ones that the Mormon missionaries used in their door-to-door work, where interested parties would get into discussions and studies with these missionaries.
We reviewed the Soul doctrine, and by this time I had no problem that we have a spirit that lives on after death. As a J.W., I had to agree with the Mormons that there were not 3 gods in one God- a triune Deity. It was one of the doctrines that concerned me with the Catholic Church. But remember, if the Catholic Church truly did have that Authority, then I would be assured that their teachings were divinely inspired and preserved. You do not find the true Church by studying doctrines. You find which Church has the true authority, and then you know what is the correct interpretation of scripture, because the true Church would be inspired of God to teach the Truth. Mormons taught that there was God the Father, God the Son who is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit who is a personage without a body.
The Mormons taught that there was no fiery hell where we would be tortured and tormented forever because of our sins. The Bible was speaking figuratively about hell and hell-fire, not literally. Eternal Hell was separation from God and living in "outer darkness". (J.W.'s taught that hell is the common grave of mankind.) On the other hand, this Mormon concept of hell was diametrically opposite to Catholic teachings, which tell of a literal fiery hell where you burn for all eternity. The Mormon doctrine states that we existed before we came to earth in this life (i.e. the Pre-existence of Souls) A number of scriptures in the Old and New Testaments allude to this. The Mormons practiced what they call the Word of Wisdom, which means no smoking, and no drinking tea, coffee or alcohlic beverages. There certainly is nothing wrong with living like that! Mormons tithed, and so did the Catholic Church (but J.W.'s relied on voluntary donations). Mormons taught a Plan of Salvation, where we were with our Father in Heaven before we came to earth. Then we came to earth to experience Mortality, and to get a physical body. This life was a learning experience, and but one more step towards our eternal progression. Mormons taught that "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become". We were the spiritual offspring of our Heavenly Father, and in eternity, we would have the opportunity to become like Him, gods in our own rites, who would be able to go off and create worlds of our own. It is the power of the keys of the Priesthood by which this is done. Thru the Priesthood, we could go on to inherit the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom in the hereafter. This Priesthood is the Authority to act in the name of God. There is the lesser Priesthood, after the Order of Aaron, and which is referred to as the Aaronic Priesthood. Then there is the higher Priesthood, after the Order of Melchizedek, which is referred to as the Melchizedek Priesthood. These Priesthoods can be passed on to other eligible males thru the "laying on of hands" where they are conferred upon any worthy candidate by someone who has that Priesthood authority already.
When Jesus asked Peter "But whom say ye that I am?" and Peter answered "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:15,16). Jesus said to him "Blessed art thou, Simone Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17) So Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ by REVELATION from God. "And I say also unto thee, "That thou art Peter (the Rock) and on this Rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16:18. What is that Rock? It is the Rock of Revelation whereby God directly reveals His truth thru a Prophet of God. This continuing revelation is what Jesus Christ would use to build his Church.
Both the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church teach that there would be an Apostasy from the Church, a falling away. 2 Thessalonian 2:3 (KJW) tells us:
"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
The Catholics say there was a falling away from the Church.The Mormons taught there was a Great Apostasy, a falling away from the Church AND of the Church. As a result, the Priesthood was removed from the earth, to be restored on the earth in the last days, or latter days. Then they teach that heavenly beings visited the young boy Joseph Smith, and restored and conferred the Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and his companion at the time, Oliver Cowdery. Also, an angel named Moroni visited Joseph Smith and showed him where some plates had been deposited that contained a record of certain peoples on this continent, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This book was supposed to be a companion to the Bible, and both would testify that Jesus was the Christ. Joseph Smith later translated these plates by the power of the Urim and Thummin that were deposited with the plates. In short, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the authority of the Priesthood was restored to the earth in these latter days. Each of these points were discussed at great length, and I became satisfied that they made sense, and that the Gospel had indeed, been restored to the earth. At the same time, however, I was told to read the Book of Mormon and to pray about it, and ask God if it is true. I did that, and something happened inside me that told me this was true! It was as though the Holy Spirit was witnessing to my soul that this was true, and I felt a kind of "burning of the bosom". I can remember a similar "feeling" years earlier, when I was having Bible studies with Grandma Fisher from the farm. I asked her why it was that after I left the Bible study to go back to school, why did I have this tremendous feeling of warmth and elation and love and peace inside. "Don't you know?" she asked. "No!" I said. "It is Jehovah,s Holy Spirit," she explained.
But now I had the same problem I did with the Catholic Church. What to do? I knew I had found the Church with true Authority from God, but I would have to be prepared to lose my family over it. Around this time, I took a week off work, and June and I went on holidays. Just before we left, my boss, the owner of his own Law Practice, had been served with papers from the Law Society, for failure to provide them with a Certificate from the Auditors that his Trust Ledger was up-to-date and in order. These represended funds that the lawyer was holding on behalf of all his clients, and must be fully accounted for and treated responsibly. Lawyers are not allowed to dip into these funds, and use them for personal reasons or personal gains. As the accountant, I had to post s $5,000 Trust Cheque issued to a furniture company to buy personal furniture that was moved into their new residence they had just built in town. But there were no funds on hand, against which this cheque could be charged. In other words, I had to open up a new Trust Ledger Sheet in the name of my boss, post the cheque, which then showed a "$5,000 balance" "in the red." When I approached my boss with the question "Where should I post this cheque." He replied that he had arranged a loan with the Credit Union, and that the funds had not yet been released, and so that deficit account will be covered when the Loan funds come in. In the meantime, the Auditors saw the negative balance, and refused to issue the Certificate, unless and until, he covered the overdraft in that trust account. That was what prompted the Law Society to serve him with papers, and he had something like 2 days to provide them with the necessary Certificate. So when I went on holidays, I was very restless over what my boss was going to do in my absence.
Upon returning from holidays, I immediately discovered that my boss had a copy of that Certificate on his desk, and that he had met the requirements of the Law Society. I was greatly relieved. A couple of days later, I was working on the Trust Ledger, and in the mail was a trust cheque from the bank that was returned for the reason "Estate funds not yet cleared". The amount was $4,850, and the cheque was in the name of an Estate of a deceased person being administered by a Trust company. But there was no ledger sheet that matched the name on the returned cheque. I approached my boss and asked him about this, and he said "The account should be in there somewhere." "O.K. I'll try to find it." I told him. I looked and looked. I noticed the date stamped on the back of the cheque by the bank, and it was the day after I left for holidays. Then I noticed he had written a cheque from his personal General Ledger which he had a cheque for $150 payable to his Trust Bank account, and the stamp on the back had the same date as the other Estate cheque. Then I looked at the Bank Deposit book for that date, and here it showed a $5,000 deposit with his own name notated there. It was obvious he had used the $4,850 estate cheque along with his $150 General account cheque to make the $5,000 deposit to his Trust account. I knew that if I posted this in the Ledger, that would mean I had knowledge of what was going on, and so would be implicated in the whole matter. Since my boss would not admit to any wrong-doing, I immediately went to the Auditors and showed them what I had seen. They groaned, because they were personal friends of my boss. Professionaly however, they had to report this to the Law Society. Within 24 hours the Law Society's Auditors walked in the front door and shut everything down, and seized control of the ledgers and the bank accounts, and proceeded to audit his entire Client files. This resulted in my boss getting disbarred, and me being laid off with no job, and no means of support.
I then visited my home town of Medicine Hat and looked for work. Luckily I was immediately hired as an accountant for the Alberta Linseed Oil Company. Essentially, they would purchase truckloads of flaxseed from farmers at daily street prices, then crush the seeds to extract the oil to make Linseeed Oil for paint. The seed pulp was mixed with supplemental vitamins and minerals, and then was moulded into feed blocks for cattle, and sold back to the farmers. So we moved back to the Hat, and settled in. I later heard that my boss back in Brooks had been sentenced to 18 months and was serving his time.
After about three months at my new job, we went back to Brooks to visit the wife's family on the farm. We stayed an extra day, so that when I returned to work, the boss had taken offence at my absence, and told me I was fired. I apologized, but it was too late.
Back to Brooks we went. I found an opening at the E.I.D. (Eastern Irrigation District) and they hired me to work on a Survey crew, and the District would provide us with an E.I.D. house to live in. That was exciting, because it felt good to be back, and I wanted to try working outdoors for a change, instead of being in an office all day every day.
At this time our first daughter was born. I was able to go to the operating room and watch the birth. It was an awesome experience, and it felt strange and good to be a daddy. I felt thankful for my beautiful family, and was happy where we lived, and with my new outdoor job.
Now, in our move to Medicine Hat, I wrote to John C. a letter explaining what had happened, and asked him to send me another Book of Mormon, as the first one was lost back in Brooks. He wrote back, saying that he would not send me a Book of Mormon, because if I had already recognized it as the truth, then I still had it, but if I didn't recognize it, I probably never would. A day later he sent me the book, telling me he changed his mind. I opened up the book and started to read. That same spirit that hit me back in Brooks came over me again, and it was very powerful. I knew I had to act! But then I got caught up in the move back to Brooks, and so again, I put things on hold, while sorting out our new circumstances, a new job, a new house and a new daughter. There was so much going on.
After things had settled down into a kind of routine, I began to revisit my battle with Faith, and what to do about it. I decided it was time to join the Mormon Church. I drove to the home of Noel C. who I had met a few years ago as a J.W. and he had challenged me to prove I had the authority to preach. Now I had to tell him I wanted to join the Mormon Church. He brought in another young Mormon who lived in the area, and also did Missionary work. They had the Missionary discussions with me, which were the same ones I had by mail with John C. They realized that I had already covered all this, and I had accepted everything, so they set things up for me to get baptized in their Church at the Town of Duchess. I told them I wanted to be baptized by John C., the Elder who had been with me from the very beginning. Noel C. offered to conduct the services, and on a Saturday I attended that Church and was baptized.
I told my wife I was going to do this, and they all tried to get me to change my mind. But there was no turning back, and I knww this was the Truth. John C. and his family drove down to Brooks to our home and visited with us. June was very friendly towards them. After all, she was the one who had first met them, and introduced me to them. But in the midst of her being a sociable host, I knew her heart was heavy as she agonized over what I was about to do- join the Mormon Church. After the baptism, John and his family drove home again.
Getting baptized meant that I was now considered an Apostate from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Disfellowshipment was inevitable. I was served with a double-registered letter from the presiding "Elders" of the Brooks Kingdom Hall, informing me of the meeting where I would be disfellowshipped, and they encouraged me to attend on my own behalf. One of the three on the Disfellowshiping Committee was my own father-in-law, which made this especially painful. I wrote a letter to this Committee, citing many scriptures I knew the Society regarded as to what it meant to be a Christian, and that even though I had joined the Mormon Church, I was still in harmony with, and accepted those scriptures. Therefore, by their own definitions, I was still a Christian. I gave this letter to my father-in-law, while he strongly kept insisting again and again and again that I attend that disfellowshipping hearing. I respectfully declined, saying that everything I had to say was already in that letter. A few days later I received another letter from them advising that I had been disfellowshipped. This then, set up a real backlash from the family. They came to town to pick up my wife and our baby in her arms, to take her to the farm to stay there for a period of time. The mother scolded me saying, "This is our daughter, and we gave her to you, and now look what you've done!" As they all left, one of the brothers who was the last one out the door, turned to me and said "I feel sorry for you Rodney!" That was the last we spoke to each other for an awfully long time.
So there I was, alone in our living room, thinking about everything that had happened, and I was in agony, and felt heart-sick. Yet I knew I had joined the True Church. Surely God will guide me thru all this mess. After all, "I did the right thing, didn't I?" And as I sat there, I began to hear funny noises coming from the kitchen. I got up and went into the kitchen to see what was causing the noise. Nothing! I went back and sat down in the living room. Suddenly, there was that strange noise again. Again I went and checked the kitchen. Nothing! Funny ideas went thru my head. You know how the J.W.'s keep talking about Satan the Devil and his demons. Was this noise his doing? Had I been deceived? Am I in real danger here? Then, that noise again. A chill went up my spine, and I approached the kitchen cautiously. I stopped just in the landing, while hiding my body around the corner, still in the living room, but peeked my head out to peer into the kitchen. Nothing! I waited and watched, and watched and waited. I didn't move, and I didn't make a sound. Suddenly, I saw a little mouse run across the floor. After a sigh of relief, and a nervous chuckle ovre how silly I had behaved with these wild imaginings, I began to scold myself for being so stupid and superstitious about it all. I caught the mouse, and released him outside. Then I resolved not to fall for this kind of thing ever again. And I never looked back.
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In my next Episode #8, I want to share with you what it was like to live in a religiously divided home, and alss what was going on in my life as a Mormon. I promise you, it will be a real humdinger, with many twists and turns and ups and downs.
Rod P.

JustTickledPink
JustTickledPink 11 years ago

I've only made it through half of the posts... it is interesting, I'll check back for more later. I have chores to do!!!

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



I have decided to discontinue my story on this thread. Have discovered that threads die as new ones come on stream, and this one has been left in the dust.
Somewhere along the line I will continue with a more recent thread.


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X-JW , X-Mormon & More OR: Around the World's Religions in 60 Years!
by Rod P 11 years ago 31 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw experiences
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Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Hi People!
I am new here, but started out on the topic of "High rates of depression in Org." There are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread. The other 2 posts will be pasted shortly, as they are part of a series of episodes that I am to complete on this new thread, since I do not want to get in the way of those who want to talk about "Depression in Org."
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I am an ex-JW. Worse, I left the JW's and became a Mormon, after about 4 years as a JW. When I joined the Mormons, I was immediately disfellowshipped by the JW's for apostasy. I then spent another 5 years or so trying to make a divided religious home function as a "normal" family unit. It cannot be done!
Being disfellowshipped, my wife and I were not allowed to discuss anything to do with religious matters. My wife told me that since I had abandoned my position of spiritual leadership in the home, that she would have to take my place.
Because I left the JW's, and because I married her in the JW faith, I felt sorry for her, and let her continue to carry on Bible studies with the kids (We had 3 daughters). I drove her to the kingdom hall so she could attend meetings, and the kids went with her. I got very angry once when we were driving down the street and came to a Church. Our oldest daughter spoke up and said "Daddy, that Church is bad!" I immediately reacted and told her "No! That Church is not bad!" Then I turned to my wife and said "If that is what the kids are being taught at the Kingdom Hall, then I am going to refuse to let them go there anymore!" She just tried to minimize it all by telling me that this is the kind of thing that kids just blurt out, and not to make a big deal out of it. It was at that point that I started to take the kids to the Mormon Church I was now attending, because I wanted them to be exposed to more than one point of view so that they could see that "Other Churches are not bad."
Looking back, I see this whole thing as two sincere persons trying to make the best of a bad situation. We were both being true to ourselves by following what we honestly believed was true. Yet we both became effectively the "mouthpieces" of the very religious organizations we were sincerely following. In other words, it was like two religous entities trying to operate in harmony under one roof, with the mother and father of that household representing and behaving in the context of those respective organizations. There is no such thing as compromise, or working things out. It was like an "immovable object up against an impenetrable force". The result is "an unimaginable explosion!" And that is what happened to the marriage, with an awful lot of depression on both sides.
One day my oldest daughter, who was in Grade One at the time, came home from school and laid on the living room carpet and stared off into space. I asked her what was bothering her and she said "Oh nothing. Just thinking." This happened after I found out that my wife had gone to the school (behind my back, I might add) and told the teacher that our daughter is not to participate in any school activities having to do with Halloween or Remembrance day or Christmas, etc., or the national anthem or saluting the flag, etc. When kids in her class tried to get her to join in with them even in things that had nothing to do with those things the JW's do not permit participation in, she would kind of "tune out" and sit there with a blank, cathartic stare, the same thing I was beginning to observe was happening at home. It was obvious she was in a state of deep depression.
I found out about this at the time of Parent-Teacher interviews. I dropped by the school to see the teacher just to see if our daughter was doing OK in school. When I found out about her behavior, resulting from her being told to stay out of all these things mentioned above, I told the teacher that I was now going to change the rules, and that our daughter would now become a full participant, and I would begin the process, as her father, of trying to positively teach her that it was OK to do so. I also met with her school psychologist (an anathema to JW's) and the school principal, where we discussed everything in detail. I told the Principal that I would be giving the School a written authorization for our daughter to participate in everything. When I went home and talked about this with my wife, she reacted with total anger that I went to the teacher without first telling her. I said I had just gone to the store for a loaf of bread, which was right by the school, and, being extremely busy at the time, just dropped by to see the teacher for five minutes, because we would probably miss the parent-teacher interview. The real issue, I felt, was that she went behind my back and put in place with the school some very serious and long-term rules without telling me, and that was far more serious than me talking with the teacher for a few minutes. Anyway, I wrote a letter to the school Principal giving him the authority. I showed it to my wife, and she then asked for a copy. I said "OK, but why?" She said "It's going to my lawyer." At that point I told her that I would give her a copy, but before I did I wanted to run it by the school legal department as to my wording, since this may well turn into a whole legal issue, with court cases and all.
I ended up in a meeting with the Superintendant of Schools, discussed everything at length, after which my letter was sent to their legal department. Three days later, the letter was given back to me with the advice that there was provision in the School Board by-laws for parents to opt their children out of certain school programs under religious grounds, but there was NO provision for opting a child INTO any school programs. I asked the question "Does my wife then have the upper hand and control over all this on legal grounds, while I have no way of doing anything." The answer was "I'm afraid so!" I then went home and told my wife of nine years, "Here is a copy of my letter that went to the School. You can take me to court if you want, and I will fight you with every ounce of my being over this, and you and I are through!" I frankly, had had enough! All that ever happened was that whatever tolerance I had showed over the years, she accepted with appreciation, but do not expect her to reciprocate. Why? Because JW's are the one right religion on the planet earth, and everything else is wrong and false. There is no such thing as compromising with "truth" as they see or interpret it. Shortly afterwards, I left. The tension in the air was so thick you could cut it with a knife. It was like we hated each other, and there was absolutely no way to work things out with compromise unless I was the one to give in to her expectations of the JW way. In the middle of all this were our three beautiful daughters, who in their innocence, were, by implication of the rules, were expected to see their dad as the "bad guy" since he was disfellowshipped and shunned, whereas mom was the good and righteous person who only loved Jehovah, so they must side with her. I could see that they had become pawns in an adult world that was trapped in religion in a hopelessly divided home. They were being placed in an impossible situation where they are supposed to choose one parent over the other one, when they really loved both of their parents. It was also like two parents praying to God for the other one to see the "truth", which is reminiscent of the 2nd World War, where each side was praying to the same god for their side to win.
I concluded that there were circumstances where a marriage should NOT be kept together for the sake of the kids, especially if the home they would be raised in would amount to nothing but tension, fighting, arguing, unhappiness. What kind of emotional scars and psychological damage would put on the kids as they emerged into adulthood?
I say again. If two sincere, well-meaning individuals, living under one roof as a family unit, try to make things work but without compromise because the religious affiliations they belong to have no room for compromise (since they represent the "truth"), this will only lead to inevitable marriage failure. They become the natural extensions of the religious organizations they represent, and whenever you try to make "Organization-Think and Dogmas" operate inside a family unit, conflict and break-down is unavoidable. I think that these types of religion have gotten things backwards. The family unit does not exist to SERVE THE CHURCH, but rather the Church is there to serve the family unit. Instead, they put themselves BETWEEN Jesus Christ as the Saviour of Mankind, and the individual or the family unit. According to them, Jesus Christ cannot save you without that organization, or at least that's the way it looks to me. If I were to draw an Organization Chart, I would put God the Father at the top, and then draw a line down to Jesus Christ as Saviour and Mediator between God and Man. From Jesus Christ, I would draw a line down to the Individual and the Family Unit. From there I would draw a line down to the Church or Religious Organization, which is there to serve and support, and not to control. The Church or Organization has no business interfering, going between or acting as a judge or barrier between the Individual and Jesus Christ the Saviour. Period. And I am not talking as a Born-Again or Evangelical Christian. (I have no religious affiliation at present. But that does not mean I love God less.)
After leaving, I got my own place, and began going to University and pursuing a career. I was studying Sociology at the time, and began learning about the behavior of groups, institutions and organizations, and how individuals can immerse themselves and identify their whole personalities with those entities that they would even sacrifice themselves to the cause. Individual thoughts and questioning is out of the question, while loyalty and blind obedience is everything. Those who are at the top end up in positions of power and influence, and if certain rules and policies stand in the way, they are in the political position to make changes, while those underneath simply adjust to the new rules. This has to do with "Culture"- the values and meanings and symbols adopted by a group or institution. The people who belong to that Group/Institution live inside the framework of its Culture, and this process is known as "Interaction". This interaction process, individuals behaving inside this group trying to conform and live up to the expectations of the culture, produces "feedback" up to the leadership at the top. The leaders then note that certain changes need to be made along the way, and so before long, new policies, even teachings, begin to emerge. This is communicated down thru the membership, usually thru their publications, but also thru the local leaders who receive written instructions from above, and then pass them on to the members in that region or locale. This ensures uniformity and consistency throughout the Organization. In other words, the Culture defines the Interaction, and the Interaction process feeds back to the top, which then results in further refinements, changes and definitions of the Culture. This is to say that this is a very Human phenomenon- Culture defines Interaction, and Interaction defines Culture, so that no Organization stays the same, but is constantly changing and evolving (or devolving) into something else. The organization of today is not, and cannot be the same organization it was in the past. Even the so-called "One-Right Religion on Planet Earth" is subject to this.
For this reason, I began to look at the JW religion in a different light. I thought that maybe I should not be getting so hung-up about religious dogma, and the JW version of "Absolute Truth". After all, change is inevitable, given what I had just learned from Sociology. The lesson here was to be more tolerant and compromising. Family was more important. I was happy in my University studies; yet emotionally I was a wreck. I missed my three daughters terribly. And of course, I still loved my wife, as I had always loved her. It's just that she "fell out of love" with me. She told me when I became Mormon that she could not love a man who does not love Jehovah. I wrote to the Watchtower Society in Toronto about this problem. Six months later they replied with the statement that they understood how she felt, but that it was scripturally OK to still love her husband. I showed the letter to her, but that did not change the reality of what she really felt in her heart. She even told me she was ashamed to walk down the street with me beside her if she was to meet a fellow Witness on the same street. All of this had an influence on me when I decided to leave.
I now began to make it my mission in life to reconcile with my wife, and to get our family back together. She told me that I would have to return to the "Truth" before she could even consider that. I then approached the Overseer of the congregation in the area where I was living. But I was still a Mormon, and notwithstanding some of my doubts, was not yet ready to dismiss it in terms of what I believed from within. I went back to the Mormon Elders and explained my situation, and told them I wanted to reconcile with my family, but that I would have to return to the JW's before that would become a posssibility. They ended up agreeing to remove my name from the membership roles, but kept it in a separate filing cabinet, because the Mormon Church wanted to help families be together, but knew that it was not my purpose to renounce Mormonism. I was going back to the JW's as a prerequisite that was imposed on me by them for a reconciliation to occur.
So now I was able to focus on my family. When we separated, we were living in a major urban center. The wife and kids moved back to the farm of her parents, where there was a separate farm house. The farm was about 100 miles away from where I lived. This meant that on weekends I would be travelling back and forth, which I did for about 8 months before being reinstated. One of the rules that I had to obey was that I was to have absolutely no association with non-JW's other than certain necessary business and shopping activities. At the same time, I was to attend all of the meetings at the Kingdom Hall, but at no time was to talk to any of the Witnesses. I was to study the publications and pray to Jehovah, but the only ones I could talk to and visit with would be my wife and kids. It would be six months later that they would review my situation for possible reinstatement. This would have to be done by the elders at the congregation where my original disfellowshipment took place, and that happened to be where my family was now located. When the six months was up, which felt like an eternity, it was time for the meeting with the elders. Then I was told that one of the elders was away for a month, so we couldn't meet for another month. Then when he returned, I was told that the Overseer had gone to Kingdom Ministry School, and would not be back for at least another month. I was very angry and disgusted over all of this, as this was looking strangely like a lot of man-made behavior and convenience, rather than Jehovah's spiritual direction. My wife tried hard to settle me down, and to just hold on a little while longer, which I did.
Finally the big day came, and we had the interview, and I was reinstated. Witnesses came from miles around, as I had a lot of friends from the time when I was a witness. We had a big "reunion" at the farmhouse, with dancing and playing games, and a lot of talking about old times. Some of them were crying, they were so happy with my coming back into the fold. During the course of the evening, one of them brought up the subject of "field service", and shared some of the experiences they had, including some discussions they had with Mormons. Something went thru me like a "thunderbolt". I had this sinking in the pit of my stomache, that I would also have to go out there in field service and start talking with Mormons, many of whom I already knew when I was active with them. How could I look them in the eye and preach to them the "truth" that the JW's were teaching, while in my heart of hearts I did not yet believe that the Mormon religion was a false religion (notwithstanding some of my doubts about it). It became a kind of "catharsis". How can I suspend my personal beliefs for the sake of another Cause or Religion that was imposed on me as a precondition for a family reunion? If I were to go down this path of staying inside the JW relgion for the sake of the family, it would carry with it the incredible psychological guilt of being untrue to oneself, living a lie before God and man- an unbearable hyprocisy. I couldn't do it! I went back to where I lived in the big city and pondered what to do next. We had already picked out a place where we were going to live, and I had moved into the premises waiting for all the furniture, etc. to be brought in. Yes, I did a lot of praying, and felt torn between the prospects of a happy family reunion on the one hand, but having to live a lie, or alternatively, going on alone with the agony of a family that might have been, but at least being true to oneself in terms of what I felt in the core of my being. After about two weeks, I wrote my wife a letter that I could not believe the Watchtower Society as God's sole channel of communication on earth between God and man. We talked on the phone, and she warned me that I had better decide pretty fast because there was not much time left before I would be disfellowshipped again. Of course, that became the outcome. Better that, however, than going ahead with the reunion under those circumstances. This would have caused even more aggravation and grief to everyone had I gone ahead and then later regretted it, and quit the JW's in the end anyway.
So now I was on my own, struggling with the question of what to do now. I had accepted the final conclusion that the marriage was over, and in spite of the pain and heartache, depression and despair in the days ahead, I resolved to move on with my life, and try to make the most of it. Religion and all the struggles it embodies for so many years had by now left me with a kind of bad taste in my mouth. It felt like I had been in and out of the garbage pail, and I needed a breathe of fresh air. During this stage I became friends with a number of individuals who had no religious affiliation, even though they had had various religious backgrounds growing up.
I went to a do-it-yourself divorce class. I was going to get a divorce, but without having to pay for expensive lawyers. I found out that in Canada, divorce laws had changed to allow parties to divorce without one party having to be the guilty one under the law. So, for example, after two years of living apart, I could obtain a divorce on the grounds of "marriage breakdown" (whereas before it was referred to as "mental cruelty"). However, if I did that, my wife was going to have to spend the rest of her life without a husband, because while we could be separated, she would not be free to remarry unless there was proper grounds (i.e. adultery) under the JW rules. This became my rationale for giving her the grounds to divorce me. I ended up becoming intimate with a female friend in the new associates I was involved with, after which my wife was able to divorce me on an uncontested basis, and after which she would be free to remarry. I would be the bad guy, since I was already disfellowshipped, and I did not really want to go back to the Mormon Church either. At least my 3 daughters might have the chance to have a new father when my ex-wife remarried, and the home would certainly be united under one faith.
This did not mean I was trying to be some do-good martyr, sacrificing my eternal soul for the sake of my wife and kids. But I did have a lot of guilt and depression, and low self-esteem at the time, like about what a mess I made of my life, and God was not about to bless me with anything good. I guess I was just coasting, and didn't care a whole lot about right and wrong and morality, and all those things religion had been preaching at me for so many years.
Now, I still had unresolved the whole matter of the Mormon religion, which I eventually went back to. From hindsight, I learned that I had jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Being free from a bad marriage, managing the daily guilt and depression over my 3 daughters (being unable to communicate with them in a disfellowshipped state), I thought that if I settled down in the Mormon Church, even getting married to someone of that same faith, I would finally find true happiness. So I set my sights in that direction and full steam ahead. I did get married in the Mormon Temple, and I thought me and my new wife would lead to paradise. That's what the Church represented- the keys of the Priesthood having the keys to the Celestial Kingdom, the highest degree of glory in the hereafter. Now we had moved around a bit, but in one place I was engaged in some missionary work. At one place I received some information that really opened some questions about the Mormon Church that I had on the back of my mind from years ago, except this time there was a lot of serious evidence involved. There was also a source quoted which led me to some very in-depth publications by some Ex-Mormons who had exposed a lot of cover-ups and changes in the so-called revelations by Joseph Smith, etc. I acquired these books and studied them very seriously. After that, I was pretty convinced the Mormon Church was wrong, and that the average Mormon was virtually unaware about there even being a problem. I summarized the crisis areas of my faith into twenty questions, with brief summaries of the evidences that called into question the statements or positions of the Mormon Church, and then drove around the whole city and area, delivering this package of documents about one inch thick to each of the leaders in the Mormon Church, from the Stake President and his High Councillors down to the Bishopric of the local congregation I attended. This created one heck of a back-lash. I talked with a number of them by phone when they phoned me. Most told me they had never heard of any of this stuff, but would try to find some answers. There was not a single person in a position of leadership that had any answers, and not one offered any help. After that, I asked that my name be removed from the membership roles. Since I was a Mormon Elder, they accommodated me by excommunication, which is the only way you can get your name off the records. Even so, they always treated me kindly, and they do not engage in the practice of shunning, for which I am thankful.
Here we go again! I married in the faith. I left the faith. Now my marriage is divided. Since I am writing this on an Ex-JW site, I do not want to spend a lot of time on the Mormon part of the story. Suffice it to say that marriage number 2 ended in divorce and splitsville.
In retrospect, I can see that both marriages were based on a certain kind of relationship, in which the couple feels like they are in love with each other. It has to do with both persons looking for a potential mate who believes the same as they do (i.e. in the same religion). And as long as you both share the same beliefs, then God will work in that marriage to keep it united and in harmony. The minute one of the partners no longer believes the same way, the other partner no longer feels "in love" with their partner. They fall "out of love" because they feel their mate has betrayed them and God. This is one of the problems of Religious Absolutism, where they are the only right religion and everyone else is wrong. In other words, both of my ex-wives loved me with all their hearts, but only so long as I was a good JW or a good Mormon. The minute I felt I could no longer believe in that version of the "Truth", and therefore could not continue to be the good JW or Mormon, then everything changed. This is what I would call "conditional love"- where they love you on the condition that you live up to their expectation of being a good JW or Mormon. Strip religion away, and you discover the relationship has little or nothing to do with loving you for YOU (in spite of what you do)- the love of "uncondition".
Now, about "Depression". After all, this is the real reason I have been sharing my story with you. Lord knows, I had an awful lot to feel depressed about over so many years. What exactly is depression? It is Anger that is turned Inward. We have to learn how to deal with all that Anger. If we keep it all inside, it will eat us up; even destroy us. Also, in the final analysis, this is what we are doing to ourselves. We must not go around blaming other people or the outside world as "doing it to me". We cannot control what other people think or feel or do. The same is true for Institutions or Organizations, which interact with the world on their own terms. They are not running around trying to please or accommodate you or me. They are "doing their own thing.", and anyone that wants to belong to them must not be surprised that they will exercise "control" over their lives. The key is for you decide for yourself to what degree, if any, you will allow them to have control over you. You cannot control them, but you can control your reaction to them. And as an autonomous being, you can exercise your own control in terms of how much YOU will allow another person or organization to control you. This is where learning to be assertive comes into play. Only you can decide what's right for you, or what you believe or like or don't like. Once you make up your mind on these things, you then decide what you will allow anything outside your life to control or influence you. If you do not know, then you explore and investigate, research and question, in order that you can be properly equipped to make up your mind on something.
Once you learn how to assert yourself in life, exercising your built-in self-autonomy, you will find yourself taking control of your life in ways that you never knew or thought possible before. Others who accuse you of being bad or guilty or wrong or deceived may believe they are right and have your best interests at heart. But you do not have to accept their pronouncements. You cannot control them, but you CAN control your reaction to them. Do not let them be the judge of you. You decide over your own life. This is part of Self-Responsibility. This is key to getting over a lot of those hang-ups and guilt complexes we have been carrying around with us all our lives, like albatrosses. Until we learn to love ourselves, we cannot effectively love others. Stop the guilt! Discover that you really are special, and that you are worthwhile and loveable. Build your own self-esteem. Tell yourself every day that you are worth it, and that "Every day I am getting better and better". And no, you don't have to tackle and solve this whole problem in a day, and become overwhelmed. "Inch by inch, it's a cinch. Yard by yard it's hard." A day at a time. A day at a time. A day at a time. Strive towards improvement and perfection, even though no-one is perfect.
Create your own self-expression or "Mantra" to continually recharge your batteries. Here is mine:
"Right now I am receiving all of the love, power, wisdom and abundance, good health, good fortune, good luck and success from the all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere present God of the Universe."
I say this many times a day, whenever I can think of it or have a break. But I don't just babble out the words, lest they become meaningless expressions. I focus on key words and also try to visualize some of those qualtities. I try to visualize myself as being in the presence of God, becoming bathed in the light. I feel a kind of "goodness" wash over my being, and I begin to feel a part of this awesome universe. The Universe is not cold and indifferent, and neither is it hostile to our well-being. The world out there is not our enemy. After all, God created this Universe. He made us in his image, and we are His children, and He loves US. How then can we put up with all this condemnation from Organized Religion? It is time we turned within and discover the spirituality and love that is already there inside each of us. You don't need a Church or Organization to give you spirituality and a relationship with God. This is the real Truth these Organizations don't want you to know or find out.
And, in case you are wondering, I am not some religious fanatic running around preaching some "new age religion". I am simply sharing what I have found in my long and difficult struggle to find the real truth about God and the Universe. It was "Depression" that led me to the break-thru I needed, where one can find God and Love, though every Church and Organization and Person be against you. I am only suggesting that if you turn within your own self, there you will find the answers you seek. It will never be found "out there" in some man-made Institution with self-serving religious and political agendas calculated and designed to control the masses or the members. No-one and nothing on this earth has a monopoly on truth or an exclusive pathway to God. You have the right path for you to God, and it's right there within you, if only you take the time to find this out.
LOL
RodP
p.s. My youngest daughter, who is now grown up and married with 3 lovely daughters of her own, and who was raised in the JW religion, including when her mom remarried to another JW, went thru her own crisis and depression. About a year ago she finally left the JW's by disassociating herself. Since then, she says she has never known such happiness and freedom.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



This is the 2nd post now pasted from the thread "High rates of depression in Org."
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This is one of a series of installments as time permits. There is too much to do all at once. So here goes:

"You can count the seeds in an apple. But can you count the apples in a seed?!"
Along the way, down the pathway of life, we all plant seeds. Little do we know that from all that we have planted, what it is going to eventually reap.
My father was born on September 11, 1922 in the small town of Pincher Creek in Southern Alberta, Canada, about 25 mile S.W. from the City of Lethbridge. When he was about 17 years of age and in Grade 11, the year was 1940, when the 2nd World War was gathering momentum. Patriotism was running very high, and thousands of young Canadian men had gone off to the war overseas. Some local JW's were talking to school kids on the school grounds at noon hours and recesses. My father had a younger brother in Grade 10, and an older brother in Grade 12. These Witnesses carried around portable phonographs and records of speeches by Judge Rutherford, which they played to the kids. They also conducted Bible studies with the kids away from the presence of adults, including their parents. This was the time and manner in which my dad and his younger brother converted to the JW religion. Once converted, they then had to face the school system, which did its part to ensure that the national anthem "Oh Canada" was sung and the flag was saluted every day by all the students.
Of course, my dad and his brother now found it necessary to refuse to salute the flag and to sing "Oh Canada". After being warned of severe consequences if they continued their refusals, they still refused to obey. They were then marched up on stage in a school assembly and told once more to salute the flag. They refused, and so were strapped on the hands and wrists in front of the entire student body, and then expelled from school. They were being made examples for what happens when you dare to be "unpatriotic". Now they had to go home and tell their parents what had happened at school. Their parents (my grandparents) hated JW's, and since their two youngest sons were now one of them, then they were no longer welcome at home. They were each given $10.00 and told to "hit the road". Welcome to the real world!
While my dad's brother hitch-hiked to Port Alberni on Vancouver Island, my dad hitch-hiked east, past Lethbridge, and on to Medicine Hat at the other end of Southern Alberta, about 125 miles from home. With the little money he had, dad moved into a "room and boarding" house with a number of other young tenants. The Landlords were a husband and wife team who owned the property and lived on the premises, and prepared all the meals for the tenants. Now that he had a home, my dad got a job working as an apprentice to become a machinist and a welder for the C.P.R. (Canadian Pacific Railway). In those days, Medicine Hat was a major centre for servicing and repairing trains with steam engines. He started with the fabulous sum of $15.00 a week.
It wasn't very long before he met the young woman he fell in love with and later married, and who was to become my birth mother. That young woman was the daughter of the Landlords. When my father got married, he was 19 years old, while his young bride was 16 (almost 17). Now imagine this young couple making it on their own, with $15.00 a week coming in, and pay increases of something like five cents and hour coming on stream once a year. Then in April 1943 I am born, and 1-3/4 years later my brother is born. I have no idea how they could have managed all this on apprenticeship wages.
In the middle of all this, there was the military draft, where every eligible young male was drafted into the armed services. As near as I can tell, there were about a dozen young men in Medicine Hat who were JW's, and were all drafted. When they refused on the grounds of being "conscientious objectors", they were all thrown in jail. They also used the argument of scripture, saying they owed their subjection to the "higher powers", which the Watchtower Society taught were Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, and so were not going to go to war in obedience to any earthly government or ruler.
My dad was also drafted, but he was exempted from service for medical reasons, as he apparently had a heart murmer. This meant that my dad became the only adult male in the local congregation of JW's (around 50, including the males, who were now in jail). He was then put in the position of "Company Servant". In those days, the Congregation was referred to as a "Company", and the Overseer was the Company Servant. What we have here is a case of a young man with a wife and 2 kids, just barely surviving financially, and then being given the responsibility to lead over a congregation of women and children. As if he didn't have enough problems just taking care of his immediate family! My dad and his wife were expected to be shining examples of leadership and spiritual maturity, and "field service" was the order of the day. After all, they were all living near the end of this "Wicked System of Things".
The Witnesses met in a rented hall above a service station (garage), which was owned by the Fraternal Order of Eagles. Across the street was Central Park for the City. On Sundays, they used to run wires from the upstairs hall, out into the adjacent trees, and across the street into the trees over there, where speakers were attached. Then, when public talks were given from inside the Hall, talks would be broadcast over loudspeakers in Central Park. A lot of people came to the park on Sundays, sat down on their blankets like they were at a picnic, and listened to these public talks. My dad was a frequent speaker, and some of the sisters who were there used to tell me that he gave some of the best talks they ever heard. The last talk Dad ever delivered was called "The Destiny of Earth, and the Destiny of Mankind"
It was only a matter of time before something had to give. One winter, my mother had had enough. She was trudging thru the snowdrifts with a three-year old kid (that would be "me"), and another baby in her arms a little over a year old (that would be my "little brother"), while carrying a baby bag and a Witness literature bag, knocking on doors, and receiving door slams and verbal abuse. And she said "No More!" She couldn't do it any more. She just quit everything. That left my dad not only disappointed, but also quite embarrassed. After all, wasn't he their "Spiritual Leader"? What kind of example was this setting for the Congregation? Then the fighting and the arguing started. According to my mom, she had been physically beaten more than once, and at one time, she fell down the stairs at the entrance to the basement suite we all lived in. She left, feeling in fear for her life.
If you worked for the CPR, you were given a Family Pass, where any of the family could ride the train to anywhere across Canada where there were tracks. My mom took off on the train all the way to Winnipeg, Manitoba, about 500 miles away. She stayed in a Railroad Hotel Room overlooking the CPR tracks.
The day she left, my dad came home from work, and found me in the bedroom, locked in a closet, while my brother was in the crib crying and with messy diapers. (I do not know if I was deliberately locked in the closet, or whether I went in there on my own, and then couldn't get out. I do not remember any of this!) My dad had to take care of this sudden crisis by calling in the brother of my mom, who was still a student in High School. He took care of us for two weeks (staying out of school to do this), while my dad found places for us to live. My brother was sent to my dad's brother (Uncle Jim) in Port Alberni, B.C., while I was sent to a farm about 45 miles east of Medicine Hat. This was the home of the Fishers, who attended the Kingdom Hall in the "Hat" Some of my best and fondest memories come from that farm, notwithstanding they were JW's. It was a happy time of my life!
............................................to be continued!
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Here is the 3rd post now pasted below from the topic "High rates of depression in Org." Everything is now in one place, so will continue on from this thread.
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Well, I'm back again. Here's Episode #2, carrying on from where I left off last.
Just before my brother and I were sent away, dad took us for a ride. We all hopped on the train and travelled to Winnipeg to see our mom. God bless the C.P.R. for that family pass. I can recall looking out of the window of that hotel room, and being utterly amazed at all those rows and rows of railroad tracks, and all those trains moving around. (I loved trains, and used to dream about them. Once my dad even took me on top of a big engine that he was fixing in the "Roundhouse". It was awesome, and I felt so small.) Actually, the window was propped up to let the air in, so that I was looking out of the window thru open air. Suddenly, this gargantuan window came crashing down on my two little hands that were gripping the window sill while I was peering out. I was rushed to the hopital in an ambulance, and received stitches in my right thumb, and they bandaged my hand up like a big mitten.
Afterward, my dad, my brother and I were back in the hotel room visiting my mom again. The three of us were on one side of the room, while my mom was on the other. Dad told me to go over to mom, so I did. She picked me up and sat me on her lap. I looked her right in the eye and said "Mommy, please come home and take care of us!" Her response was "No way!. Nothing doing! Now go back over there to your dad." She put me down, and I walked back to dad. That was it, except for once; we never saw her again, until many years later when I searched for her and found her. We caught the train back home.
Now I found myself on the farm with the Fishers. I began to call them Grandma and Grandpa. They had three grown-up sons who also lived and worked on the farm, and I became fond of these "Uncles". Growing up on the farm can be lots of fun for a kid.I remember licking the salt blocks out in the pasture with the cows. And swimming in the pond with the ducks, as I talked to them like a duck. I remember sheering a sheep (with help) and feeding my pet lamb with a baby milk bottle with a big nipple. Also feeding calves the same way. There was this big gander with his gaggle of geese, and he used to chase me and peck on my legs as I ran away. I was terrified of him! One day I got tired of running, and stood up to him. I ran straight at him, shouting and throwing rocks at him. He was so shocked, he turned and ran across the farmyard with me hot on his heels all the way to the barn. He left me alone after that. I milked the cows, gathered eggs from the chicken coupe, and rode my little red wagon off the "cellar hill" where the preserves were kept. Once I got a bumble bee in my ear, while playing in the garden. I hopped around like a Mexican jumping bean, and Gramma Fisher came running to me, shoving her finger in my ear, and the bee flew away without even stinging me. I loved to eat rhubarb in the garden, but had to hide in the bushes so no-one could see me, since they were saving that for pies. There are hundreds of fond memories and stories I remember from those days. Just a normal kid.
Soon I was six, and it was time to go to school. The farm was ten miles from the town of Schuler where the "country school" was located. The school yard was the wide open prairie out in the back, where we used to catch gophers with string. A school bus would travel a main route, stop at various road allowances along the way and pick up each of the kids every day and take them to school. Then when school was over, we would be dropped off at the same spots. Now the farm was 10 miles from school, and the bus stop was 5 miles away. So each day the Fishers would drive me to the bus stop to catch the bus, and then come and get me at the drop off and drove me home. One day the Fishers had to drive to Medicine Hat, so they could not pick me up at the end of the day. Instead, they told one of their boys to pick me up after school. That was OK, except he forgot about the time. When the bus dropped me off, there was no-one there. I cheered over that, thinking I could walk home the five miles before they got me, and that would show them I was a big boy now. After walking for a while, it started to turn to dusk, and the hills and coulees got darker and shadowy. Off in the distance I started to hear the coyotes howling. Fear ran thru me, because a while ago we were all riding in the car, and I heard the coyotes howling, and one of the boys told never to leave the car when out in the prairies, because the coyotes can smell you, and will catch up with you and eat you alive. So here I am walking down this lonely, isolated road at dusk and imagining the worst. Suddenly, the howling stopped, and so my fears subsided, although I wondered if they were silent because they were sneaking up on me. I kept a wary eye open as I walked along. Soon I came to a giant ant-hill. The mound of fine granulated soil that peaked like a pyramid was as high as my knees, and it looked so neat, I just had to jump right into the middle of it all. Suddenly there were about a thousand ants running all over me, inside my pant legs, down my arms, on my face, in my ears. They were everywhere! That was when I learned to do the "Manitoba Jig", and I never knew I could jump so high and so fast. Anyway, I managed to shake them all off, with a few bites. To this day, I hate ants. Being none the worse for wear, I kept walking down the road towards the farm. Then I spotted this giant mushroom. I was thinking about creamed mushrooms on toast, and this was just perfect for supper when I got home. I picked that mushroom, and thought it was like an umbrella, it was so big. It even started to sprinkle rain, so I held that mushroom over my head like it really was an umbrella. Finally, I get over this last hill, and I could see the farmhouse off in the distance to the south-east. I decided to take a short-cut thru the field. I could see one of the boys in the farmyard walking from the barn to the house. Half-way, he stopped for a minute, and then rushed to the house. Then he hurried back to the place where he had been standing, and stopped and waited like before. I didn't know why he stopped, but I continued to march towards home, singing a song, trying to ignore the two blisters on my feet. Then I saw him run to the barn, and in a couple of minutes, come out of the barn, mount the horse, and head out into the field straight towards me at a full gallup. When he got up to me, he practically jumped off his horse which was still galloping, and looked at me with panic in his eyes, and asked if I was OK. I said "Yes, why?" He said he thought he had seen a coyote in the field, and he had gotten a rifle and was firing it at me to kill the coyote. As I kept coming towards him, he realized it was me, and remembered he was supposed to pick me up after school. He was very relieved that I was not injured. We rode double back to the farm. I had to tell him all about my adventures, while he soaked my feet in a washtub with epsom salts. Felt so good! We then went to cut up my mushroom. What a disappointment to discover it was all full of worm holes, and not edible. I didn't feel like eating after that, and don't remember if I did or not.
During this time, I missed a lot of school because of the usual childhood diseases- mumps, chicken pox, measles, whooping cough. Also, in winter months the snows and blizzards came, making the roads impossible to drive a car or truck on, because the snow-drifts would be three and four feet high. The road to the bus stop was a simple dirt road, no gravel, no grading, no paving. Out of a ten-month school term, I attended about half the time. By the end of Grade One, I barely knew the alphabet, let alone read "Dick, Jane and Spot" stories from a book.
However, throughout my time on the farm, we always had weekly bookstudies Tuesday nights- right in the farmhouse. Sometimes, fellow witnesses would visit, and we would all study together. On Sundays we had Watchtower meetings, again usually on the farm. Medicine Hat was 45 miles away, so attending meetings was a relatively rare exception, except, of course, when Assemblies were held. On Saturdays we drove around the farm community and did field service (except in Winter). All of this seemed quite normal for me. Dad did not have a car, so the only time I got to see him was when we travelled to Medicine Hat. I remember being so excited to see him, and crying when we had to leave. They also kept a picture of my mom on the refrigerator. From time to time Gramma Fisher told me to go see my mom in the picture. That became my memory of her. Quite some time had passed, and one day when we were in Medicine Hat, I got a visit from my mom. Gramma Fisher told me to "Go over there and see your mommy!" I apparently told her "That's not my mommy. My mommy is in the picture!"
During the springtime of Grade One (1950), my brother was removed from his home in Port Alberni, B.C., and joined me on the farm. Whoopie! I now had my brother back. And we fought like cats and dogs, with biting and scratching as part of our repertoire. (I guess it was hard to have to share with a brother when I had gotten used to getting all the time and attention. In May of that year my dad had gotten remarried, having divorced our birth mother earlier on. They did not want to pull me out of school with less than two months to the end of the school term, so we stayed on the farm until the end of June. After that, we got to move into the big city of Medicine Hat, with dad and our brand new mom. I always found it funny that my first mother was named Fay, while my second mother was named Kay. This was the start of a whole new world and life!
I will now try to reconstruct what transpired in my dad's life from the time he found homes for me and my brother. Here he was, still working for the CPR, and living all alone. For whatever reason, he became an inactive Witness, notwithstanding he still believed it was the "Truth" Years later he told me that he considered himself as one of the "Wicked and Evil Slave Class" which the Watchtower Society talked about during the Rutherford era (referring to those who rebelled against Rutherford's new leadership and successorship to Charles Taze Russell.) Perhaps he didn't have the heart to keep on attending meetings, and became embarrassed or even disillusioned. Perhaps he felt rejected by his wife, just like he was rejected by his parents and his school. I am quite certain that both my mother and my dad became very depressed, and also indifferent to spiritual matters. Many years later, when I talked to my mother, she told me that for a very long time she could not look at little boys playing in the school grounds or playgrounds, because it would tear her up inside. Dad would come off work and stop by a nearby hotel and"drink a few beers with the boys". One day he was there, and someone tapped him on the shoulder from behind, asked if his name was ____________ ____________, and dad told him "Yes." Wham!..... The guy punched dad in the face without warning and broke his jaw. Dad fought back, and the other guy spent six months getting over his injuries. It later came to light that my mom had talked this guy into "punching out" my dad. (Perhaps because of the physical abuse she felt she had received from dad while she was with them. I really don't know.) What I do know is that in all of my years of growing up with dad, I and my brother were not brutalized physically by dad. Yes, we did receive spankings from time to time, but we did not get the sense that he spanked us out of anger, but rather to teach us a lesson. We did not feel "afraid" of our dad, but did feel a lot of respect towards him.
In any event, my mom and dad got divorced. My dad got custody of us, and that was it. The Court ruled my mom was an unfit mother, probably because of abandonment.
After the divorce, dad met someone nice, who later was to to become our new mom. She had been a widow from the 2nd World War. She lost her husband who was shot down as a fighter pilot. For six years she stayed at home, and did not go anywhere socially, although she did work in a "Dress Shop". She had a real head for business.
I don't know who, but some friends of our new mom, who also knew dad, felt that she needed to start getting out and on with her life, and that dad needed companionship as well. In any event, they got together and fell in love, and then were married. Mom had a background of growing up with the United Church and also the Anglican Church. She and her brother and sisters were never religious, but they did go to these churches. The United Church would transfer in a new, young and good looking minister. Than all the Anglican Church people would flock over to the United Church to check out the new minister in town. Then this minister would get them involved in all kinds of programs, and the Church would prosper. But now the Anglican Church needed to revive and renew itself. So they would transfer in a new Minister, and everyone would flock over there. This see-saw game was how she grew up with religion. Before getting married, dad arranged for there to be some bible studies in order to introduce his bride-to-be to the J.W. teachings. During the studies, she would consider things point-by-point, but did not hesitate to express where she agreed and where she disagreed with the teachings or interpretations of scripture. She did not believe that any one church or religion had all the answers. After these bible studies, she told dad that if he wanted to continue to be a Jehovah's Witness, she would not oppose him, but that he should not expect her to become one of them. They still loved each other, but dad knew from the outset that his new wife was never going to become a J.W. Ultimately, his response was that he "will die believing this is the Truth" but that he "didn't have the guts to get out there and be an active J.W. when she's not going to as well." And so, when they got married, we were raised without any religion. Dad did have some bible studies with us kids in the home, but we seemed to be more interested in playing and other things, than sitting there thru those boring old bible studies. Dad just let it all slip by, and we all kind of forgot about religion.
We now settled down as a new family unit while we learned how to live with and accept this new mother. At first, we called her "Kay". Imagine this. She is on her own, She gets married, and the next day, she wakes up as the "mother of two boys". Instant family! It must have been a real shock to her system. For about two months she could not do enough for us. We were spoiled rotten with all kinds of new toys and clothes. A lot of this was bought when they were on their honeymoon. And, of course, we found out we could get away with almost anything. We were "holy terrors"! Finally, she couldn't take it anymore, and she exploded. When dad came home from work, he found her sitting on the couch crying. He asked her why she was crying. "I spanked the kids!" she blurted out. Dad asked "And what did they do then?" She replied tearfully, "They ran up and hugged me, and called me 'Mommy'! " "Well," dad said, "now they are yours!"
In my next episode, I will tell you how religion came back into my life, and how I became involved with the J.W.'s. It is just starting to get interesting.
LOL
RodP
.........................................to be continued.

jeanniebeanz
jeanniebeanz 11 years ago



Hi, Rod. Welcome.
I actually studied with the Mormons for a while after I got the boot from the org. Never bought it but it was interesting.
Jean

nilfun
nilfun 11 years ago

That was some good reading, Rod P. Very interesting story! Thank you for sharing it :smile:

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #3
Medicine Hat was a good place to grow up in. Still is! But growing up and going into Grade 2, fresh off the farm, with a new mom and a new "home". Well, let's just say there was a lot of adjusting to do. For one thing, there were all those strange new kids in Grade 2 who could read, and I couldn't. Everyone looked at me kind of funny, and I felt very embarrassed. The teacher contacted mom, and made her aware of the problem.
Mom came from the "old school". She didn't think much of all these new theories in education, and on teaching kids how to read. Mom said she was taught the old fashioned way, by "A, B, C ("k")(sounding out the sounds of those letters. Today we call it "Phonics"). She started drilling me every day. She had this list of words. Every day I had to learn them- how to sound them out, and how to spell each of them. Any word I got wrong would be on the list next day. It would stay there for as long as it took to get it right. This worked quite well, until one day the word "egg" was on the list. She said the word, and I had to spell it out loud. "A-g" "No!" "I-g" "No!" "E-g" No! Try again." "A-g-g" "No!" "I-g-g" "No!" And by the process of elimination, "E-g-g" "Yes! Good boy! You got it right!".......The next day, mom asked "How do you spell Egg?" "But mom, I got it right yesterday. Why do I have to spell it again?" "Doesn't matter, how do you spell Egg?" "Ag" "No!" "Ig" No!" "Eg" "No!"......Well, you get the picture! Next day, same thing. And again. And again. Do you think I could remember how to spell that dam word? Not on my life. One morning mom woke me up and asked if I wanted some eggs for breakfast. I started to cry. I thought it was that darn spelling test again! But, eventually I got it, and mastered the word "Egg", so that it would never haunt me again!
This drilling went on for months, until the next report card showed a complete turn-around. I had learned how to read as good as the next kid, and then never looked back. When I was in Grade 10, all of us students in North America had to take the same simultaneous spelling test, which I suppose was a way for the respective school systems to find out how their population of students were doing in relation to others. When the test results came back, mine showed 98%. The teacher explained that this mark meant that I had scored "as good as or better than" all of the Grade 10 students in North America in spelling on the same test. I attribute this success to my "new mom", way back in the second grade. Without her time, patience and skill, I may never have learned how to read or spell.
"You can count the seeds in an apple, but can you count the apples in a seed."
As the school years ticked by, I would have to say things were pretty normal. In Grade 7 I got to write scholarships, with a GPA of 96% for the year for all subjects. Came in 1st on a tie with another fellow, but his surname came first in the alphabet, so he was assigned 1st position, and I got 2nd. My mom was hopping mad over the unjustice of it all, and complained about it, but the results remained. Oh well. I did my best, and that's what counted.
Mom and dad bought me my first fishing rod and reel that year, as a reward. I was very proud of it. When we all went on a fishing trip, mom would sit and talk with the ladies, my brother and I would play around and explore the area, and my dad would fish with the guys. When one of these trips were coming up, I wanted to try fishing, but didn't have a rod and reel. So before the trip, I decided to make my own. Dad had just bought a new fishing line which he wound onto his reel.That left an empty spool, which he would have thrown away. I grabbed that spool and went down to the park by the river and cut off a willow. After trimming, it became a good fishing pole, and I nailed a big nail into the side and mounted that spool, which had a nice hole in the centre, allowing it to freely spin on the nail. Then I mounted those little things that are used for nailing barbed wire on to fence posts, all along my pole. I didn't have any fishing line, so I went all around finding pieces of string (that white kind bakeries use to tie up your boxes of pastries). I tied all these pieces together with knots, until I had a nice long fishing line, and rolled this onto my spool. Now I was ready to go fishing with my dad. We got out to the lake and found our spot along the water line. I could see this row of fishermen all along the water's edge, each spaced about 100 or more feet away from the next guy. I spaced myself accordingly. The sun was just setting on the horizon, the lake was smooth as glass, and the air was deadly quiet. Nobody said a word, because no-one wanted to scare the fish. Without a word, I cast my first cast. Whirrrrrrrrrrr.........!!! The noise was deafening, and it echoed across the whole lake.The knots on the string went thump...thump....thump..thump..... as the line whirred out about 200 feet. I could have crawled in a hole. It was also scary, because now I had a whole bunch of fishermen who were mad and disgusted with me. My dad made me stop fishing! So when mom and dad got me that new fishing rod and reel, you can imagine how pleased and appreciative I was.
The next time we went fishing, I cast that beautiful silent line into the lake, and in only 3 casts had caught a fish, my first ever. Now that I had a fish on the line, what to do with it! I panicked, locked the reel, turned about and ran. I was on a hill. I pulled that fish thru the water and half-way up the hill before I stopped running. There was no way I was going to let my first fish get away. I was very proud of myself that day, as my dad got skunked, and I was the only one with a fish!
I spent the next two years being a newspaper boy. I started out in Grade 7 delivering papers on a route near my school. When the snow and blizzards got too bad, but there was still a newspaper that day, mom and dad would help me with the deliveries. I did this for two years, and at the end was one of the oldest newsboys around, with another route much bigger. It was on this paper route that I ran into my grandmother, who was the mother of my birth mom. She had been a widow from her first husband (my grandpa), and had been married a number of years to the current husband, so that I did not recognize her name. Also, because I had not seen her since the age of three, there was no way to recognize her. It happened when I was collecting money on the doorsteps of my customers, and when I knocked on her door to collect, she recognized me and called me by my childhood nickname. I asked who she was, and she told me she was my grandmother. That one blew me away! It's a small world. This became the way I found out many years later where my birth mother was, when I wanted to look her up (i.e. by contacting this grandmother again). Anyway, being a newsboy, I learned how to earn money, being able to clothe myself and have all I needed for spending money, and still have money left over thru savings. My mom guided me with good advice along the way about using this money.
Mom and dad built a new house in the town of Redcliff, just 4 miles from Medicine Hat. It was what you could call a "satellite town" to the Hat, with everyone doing their main shopping in the Hat. But land was far more economical in Redcliff, and that was where mom was born, so it made a lot of sense to build there. We all moved into our new house, and my brother began attending school in Redcliff, while I had to catch the bus and ride into the Hat to my new High School in Grade 10. The thing is, we had two-hour lunch hours at school, and that was a lot of time on our hands. One day I was looking in the phone book, and found out that the Fishers now lived in town, and where they were living. It was my grandma and grandpa from the farm. I was thrilled, because now I could see them again. They had sold the farm and retired in the Hat, and the house they lived in was about 8 blocks from the high school. I went over there for a visit, and met "Grandma Fisher" on the doorstep. It was a great reunion, except that I discovered she was now a widow, and lived on her own. She had remained an active JW all these years. In fact, even more so, because now she lived in the city. It was not unusual for her to have 150 hours or more of field service in a month, and she always had 5 or more separate bible studies going on. We renewed old memories, and then started to have bible studies. I then used my noon hours having daily bible studies at her home. It was great, and I discovered that I had a kind of "spiritual hunger" all these years, not having anything to do with religion while growing up- effectively a "spiritual vacuum". Many other kids my own age were going to their own respective churches, and they talked about it like any other subject as though it was a normal part of life, although they never debated doctrinal issues. I remember feeling kind of left out, but just ignored some of those conversations wistfully.
We started the bible studies with the book "From Paradise Lost, to Paradise Regained". This started with Adam and Eve and Creation, which was what I needed, since I needed to start at the beginning, having been away from it all for so long now. This was too slow for me, so I was given a number of other books, like "The Truth Shall Make You Free", and lots of Watchtowers and Awakes, Yearbook, etc. At home I soaked it up like a sponge, and studied doctrinal teachings intensely. I had so much to learn, and I was doing all this without telling mom and dad, because I was afraid that they may not like me doing this. I did, however, tell them that I had visited "Mrs. Fisher". I did ask if it would be OK to go to the Kingdom Hall, but this was declined. I suppose this would have meant they would have to drive me to the Hall and then drive me back home, and they were not about to go to these meetings. At any rate, I told Grandma Fisher I couldn't go, but we still continued with the studies. One Saturday morning at home, there was a knock on the door, and mom answered. A JW Sister was there, and she began to "condemn" mom for being in opposition to the "Truth" and not allowing me to attend the Kingdom Hall. Let me tell you, things really hit the fan that day. You do not go to mom's front door and condemn her from her own home. Mom and dad and I had a serious conversation that day, and I had to explain about all the bible studies, and that I was invited by Mrs. Fisher to go to the Kingdom Hall, and so she must have been talking with some of the Sisters at the Hall, and that was why one of them ended up on our doorstep, but that I had no idea why she would be condemning mom for being in opposition to the Truth. The bottom line was that if Mrs. Fisher was the source for all this, then I am henceforth forbidden to have any more visits with her. This made me very sad, and I was quite bewildered as to how this could have become such a disaster.
I obeyed my parents, and stayed away. My noon hours were just not the same anymore, but I went on with my regular school studies and homework. Also, at home, l put away all the JW publications.What was the point of doing this anymore, if all I do is get in trouble over it? About two weeks later, Grandma Fisher came to the school at noon hour and spoke to me, wondering why I did not see her anymore. I apologized, then explained what happened at our door, by who, I don't know, but that they were condemning mom, and now I can no longer see you Grandma! She went along with me respectfully, and she did not approach me again.
For another couple of years, I left on the back-burner anything to do with religion. It was 1960, and I am in Grade 12, and travelling in a circle of avid Chess and Bridge players. We used to play these games, as well as arm wrestled during these 2-hour lunch periods. And got pretty good at this too! I also fell in love with a high school sweetheart, and we played lots of 45 rpm records, went to sock-hops, even danced on TV for phone-in votes, and all that fun stuff. Girls were a complete mystery to me, never having had a sister in my life. They all seemed kind of surreal and unfathomable to me. In the spring of 1961 I dug up one of those JW books and started to read it again. I started to memorize a ton of scriptures on the soul doctrine, the trinity, hell, blood, baptism, bible prophesy and the signs of the times, etc. etc. I'm 18 now, and starting to think and question an awful lot about life and purpose and religion, and so much more. This time, however, nobody else was involved, and I did this quietly and privately on my own.
One Sunday morning I was on the highway in downtown Redcliff, hitch-hiking to Medicine Hat to see my girl friend. A car pulled over and picked me up. We exchanged niceties, and somehow in those few minutes he asked if I belonged to any church. I told him I didn't belong to any Church, but that I have had a background with Jehovah's Witnesses, which I tended to believe, and also that my dad started out that way, but is not active. This guy turned out to be the United Church minister in Redcliff, and he was on his way to another small town to deliver a sermon. He told me he would love to get together with me some evening and have a chat. His name was Reverend Hunt. I said I would be delighted! We set it up for the following Wednesday evening in his manse, which was right beside the Church in Redcliff, and he and his family lived there. My interest in him was that it was going to give me a real opportunity to discuss religion one-on-one (especially doctrinal matters) with a man who was versed in Hebrew and Greek, and so knew the Bilbe way more than I did. Also, mom had been raised with United and Anglican Church background, so this should be in tune with her, and I should not run into any opposition. Or so I thought! I forgot about my dad!
.........................................................to be continued.
In my next Episode, I would like to lay out the circumstances by which I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses on a fully-committed basis, and also some of the consequences that flowed from that.
LOL
Rod P

Double Edge
Double Edge 11 years ago

Interesting read. You should turn this into a novel ... maybe titled "The Agony and the Agony".

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



To: jeanniebeanz:
Interesting you studied with the Mormons. How long and how deep did you get into it?

To: nilfun:
Glad you enjoyed the reading. The story is still a "work-in-progress" so I need to ask your forbearance until the real meaning of it all can be made clear. I know this is a lot of reading, but if you just hang in there, all will be revealed. There are a lot of surprises in store! Trust me on this one.

To: Double Edge:
Perhaps it is interesting. It's hard to know that for sure if you are the one who is inside the story.
As for turning it into a novel, who would buy it? It is just "my story", even though I paid for it in "blood" (figuratively speaking, of course).
I know about the "Agony and the Ecstasy" because I read the book and saw the movie. I get your point.
One thing though, my story is not an appeal for attention or sympathy, and I want no-one to feel sorry for me. And I most certainly am not not doing this for money. When all is said and done, I wish only to share with others what I have gone thru in hopes that in some small way it might help others to see that they are not alone, that there are those who understand what you are going thru and struggling with, or else have already experienced, but that you don't have to end up in despair.

LOL, People!
Rod P.

boy@crossroads
boy@crossroads 11 years ago



I like your sense of storytelling. I also am studying sociology. and i've thought about visiting the mormon church, not to join but just out of interest. It seems strange that after excommunication (a drop in your status) no-one would look at you differently. Maybe I just not used to that way of interacting (having been raised in the jws).
I like the part about using the mushroom as an umbrella. Seems like something out of a childs fable.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Before I get into the next phase, I need to step back a few years and introduce a few other "threads" to this story. These are important elements for what comes later.
When dad remarried, and we got our new mom, we celebrated birthdays and Christmas, and Halloween, and all those things the JW's taught were bad and wrong and pagan in origin. Well, what kid doesn't like these things? After all, we get all these nice presents, get a lot of free stuff, and have lots of fun. Kids are not normally caught up in doctrinal arguments and other subtleties of logic and scriptural interpretation that adults do.
One day, in Grade 2, I lost a tooth. Mom told me to put the tooth under my pillow, and the fairy would come and take the tooth, and give me a quarter. That was exciting, so that's what I did. The problem was, at about 6:00 a.m. I was awake, and I saw my dad come into the bedroom. I closed my eyes and pretended to be asleep. I heard and felt my dad feeling around under my pillow for my tooth, and then I felt him put the quarter there. As he walked out of the room, I opened my eyes and saw him leave. Dad went to work. Then mom got us up for breakfast, and off to school. At the breakfast table I showed mom the quarter, and said that there was no tooth fairy because I saw dad do it. Mom seemed disappointed. That was the last quarter I got for losing a tooth. Should have kept my mouth shut!
Next was Halloween that same year. It was fun dressing up and going from door to door getting suckers and chocolate bars and popcorn balls and candied apples. Hey, this was great fun!
Next came Christmas, which really was our first Christmas. What an exciting time! The stockings were full of goodies and the presents were great, and there were so many gifts from all our aunts and uncles, and especially mom and dad. However, one of those presents did not appear under the tree until the next morning. It was a hockey game where you pulled these levers to make the men move, to shoot the puck down the "ice" and into the goals. The tag said it was "From Santa". Of course, we had been taught in the book studies that there was no such thing as Santa Claus, and it was all a myth. So me and my big mouth again, opens it and announces "There is no such thing as Santa! I think mommy and daddy got us this present". Mom argued that if I did not believe in Santa then we need to give this present back to him, since he does not exist. Well, we didn't want to lose out on this "best present", so reluctantly I said that I believed in Santa after all. I don't think this was one of my parents' proudest moments, but at the same time, they (especially mom) were simply trying to give their kids the experience of enjoying Christmas, which was really for the kids. It was not about doctrine and debate about pagan origins, and whether it was right or wrong. It was about kids having fun, and going thru the normal childhood experiences like all the other kids were doing. At the same time, it forced me to lie by saying "Yes, I believe in Santa," because if I didn't relent, and tell mom what she wanted to hear, then we would forfeit the gift. They taught me to lie that day. Anyway, that was the last time we had Christmas with Santa Claus, but we still continued to celebrate and have fun every Xmas.
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The kids in our neighborhood loved to play "Cowboys and Indians". Of course, my brother and I jumped right in there. My brother had this gun and holster set that could shoot caps (to make it go bang! bang! real loud). I seem to recall the set having a certain insignia on the pieces, such as "Hopalong Cassidy" or "Gene Autry". Remember those old Saturday afternoon matinees, where you paid fifteen cents for a movie, and ten cents for a bag of popcorn and a nickel for a pop? These Cowboy Westerns were all about the good guys chasing the bad, with Hopalong or Gene or Roy Rogers being the heroes. The Indians, of course, were often (but not always) depicted as the bad guys and as murdering savages who scalped the innocent settlers, etc. Of course, there was the Lone Ranger, with his loyal indian friend Tonto. But then there were movies about Indians who were heroes, and the white man was the bad guy, such as Cochise, Chief Sitting Bull, etc. Anyway, my brother was very proud of his gun and holster set.
We used to play this game of Cowboys and Indians in the giant park by the South Saskatchewan River, which went right thru the centre of the City of Medicine Hat. The river was wide and deep and swift, and people had drowned in there, when undercurrents pulled them down to the bottom. The Lions Club financed and built this park, which had lots of picnic spots, barbecue pits and the usual playground facilities and picnic tables. In one place there was a "Summerhouse" where games and activiites were organized and conducted and supervised during the summer months. Anyway, along the river banks of the park there were lots of willows and cottonwood trees, etc. This was an ideal place to play Cowboys (or Calvary) and Indians. Almost every kid wanted to be a cowboy or a soldier. Not me! I'd rather be an Indian any old day. I had my handy-dandy home-made bow and arrow set, and I could hide in the bushes and in the trees, wait for those cowboys to come along, and "Whoooosh...!" shoot them dead with my arrows. We had an understanding that if you got hit, you would have to fall down and pretend you were dead. With arrows, you knew you were hit, and depending on where the arrow hit, you knew if you were dead or wounded. With cap guns, or yelling "Bang! bang!, you're dead!", it was always debatable if the other guy was hit or not. "I hit you and you're dead!" "Am not; you missed!" "Are so!" "Am not!" Then I would come along and shoot them with my arrows. "There, you're both dead," I would tell them. With arrows, you always knew. But the best part was, they were silent and deadly!
One day there was a contest at the Summerhouse. The kids would all have to dress up in their own "Costumes" which had to be made up from their own "imaginations". They could not be "Store-bought". I dressed up like an Indian, with my homemade bow and arrow, headband with feathers, and a painted face. After all, I was an Indian at war, so I had to paint my face. Guess what. I won! I just loved being an Indian.
In the summertime I loved those parades with the Indian Chiefs and their full head-dresses, their beadwork and their horses. And I loved those pow wow drums! In school, I loved to read about Hiawatha, Chief Sitting Bull and others, and about tribes like the Ojibwe, Mohawk, Iroquoise, Crow, Blackfeet, Souix, Navaho, Apache, and others.
The City where I was growing up had an Indian name, "Medicine Hat". At one time they were going to name the place "Gasberg" because of all the gas deposits they had discovered under the ground. Boring! So someone did some research, and found out about an interesting Indian legend. The Blackfeet lived on one side of the South Saskatchewan River, while the Crow lived on the other side. A foot-bridge had been built across the river, but it was only wide enough for one person to cross at a time. One day the Chief from one tribe was walking across the bridge, while the Medicine Man from the other tribe was coming across from the other side. They met in the middle, and neither one was going to back down and be made to go back to the start. So they fought there in the middle of that bridge, and during the battle, the Medicine Man's hat was knocked off his head and into the river. That was when the Indian people called the spot "Medicine Hat".
Footnote: I know that in this day and age it is not "politically correct" to refer to these people as "Indians". Instead, they are currently referred to as "First Nations" people. However, I have used the word "Indian" in the historical context of the day, where that was how we all spoke of them as being "Indians".
I am telling you all this because later you are going to discover what a big part and influence all this has had on my life.
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The next thing I want to bring up is the subject of "Discipline and Spankings". As most of you already know, JW's are taught the concept of "Spare the rod, and spoil the child." This essentially comes from the book of Proverbs- 13:24 ; 22:15 ; 23:13,14 ; 29:15. This is often quoted and used as justification for spanking, even beating their kids. Unfortunately, all too often, discipline and punishment is unleashed on a small child out of anger or rage, rather than to teach a valuable lesson. The idea of a "Rod" has to do with a Shepherd and his Sheep. The Shepherd would use his Rod to guide his sheep to go in a certain direction, such as tapping on the side of the sheep to steer it a certain way. Sometimes a sheep would fall off a rock or trail, and would tumble into a crevice or hole and need to be rescued. The Shepherd would use his Rod or Staff, that was curved at one end, to reach down with the staff and "hook" the sheep by the neck, and then drag it out of the hole to rescue it. It may have been painful, being pulled by a Rod around the neck, but it also saved its life. In other words, I think the teaching has been wrongly interpreted and used over the years to justify and give parents the license to inflict harsh beatings and cruel punishment on their children, because they think the scriptures authorize this kind of treatment. These parents think they are "teaching their children a lesson" and they are right, except that it is the wrong kind of lesson. Those beatings may result in terrifying the kids into obedient behaviour, because they would now fear that it may happen to them again if they repeated the offense. However, all this really teaches them is to fear their parents, rather than to love and trust them. They learn how to lie out of self-preservation, and sneak around so as not to get caught the next time. And the older they get, the more sophisticated they become at this game. There are usually one of two responses that are the outcome: 1) Flight or 2) Fight. If a child is predisposed to the Flight Response, brutalizing that child can absolutely destroy his/her self-esteem, and he/she will grow up timid and unassertive, because they feel so powerless over their own lives. They hesitate to take initiative, always seeking permission to do something, or to express an opinion about something, or even to feel a certain way, because they do not want to incur disapproval from the other guy. If a child is predisposed to the Fight Response, this kind of physical punishment creates only hostility and anger, and they will usually fight back or rebel. Often these kids turn into the "bullies on the block", and they grow into angry young adults. When those kids get bigger, where they can then physically handle themselves, they will often turn on their parents.
Having said this, I want to comment about how my brother and I were raised. I said earlier that when my dad disciplined us, including spankings, we did not feel brutalized or fearful of him. On the other hand, he was not the one who did most of the disciplining. Our new mom did that. And she came from a certain British/Welsh background which culturally was very disciplinarian by nature. It was considered "the norm". Also, children should be seen and not heard. I believe that mom was well-meaning, but that that was how she was raised, and it was never considered wrong or harsh, and should not be questioned. And if that was how they were raised, then when they grew up, it was their turn to raise their kids the same way. That, I believe, is what happened.
After that first spanking by our "new mom", it did not take very long for spankings to become the norm. Mom inheritated these two boys who were fighting and biting and scratching each other. To teach us not to fight, she took each of our hands and bit them really hard. Boy that hurt! But we stopped that biting and scratching pretty darn fast, because if we didn't, we knew she would bite us again. Instead, we found the best way to fight was to tattle-tail on each other, and then let mom inflict the punishment. That was how to get even with your brother. After awhile, we made a pact. If you don't tell mom that I did such and such, then I won't tell mom that you did so and so. We had this little mental "black book" that we kept on each other, where all of the bad things we did were on this list. Because our respective lists of "bad deeds" got rather long, it was a pretty scary thing to contemplate what would happen if "my brother told this whole list to mom"- the consequences would be devastating. It was like the "Cold War" where the Americans and the Russians had this policy of M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). Both sides had the "nuclear bomb", and if one used it on the other, then the other one could retaliate with the same weapons, and if they ever did, both sides would be equally destroyed. This is what kept the "Balance of Terror" so that each side was too scared to use it on the other. This was the game my brother and I were playing, and our MOM was the weapon!
Growing up, we used to steal crab apples from other people's yards. This was during the summer holidays, when the cab apples got ripe. We had bicycles, so we could travel a pretty big neighborhood, and also escape very quickly. We got caught a lot. This included mom discovering lumps in our pant pockets, and upon enquiring what they were, she knew we had been stealing. After awhile, "spanking" became our middle name. Once, my brother got caught when the police were involved, and he and dad had to go down to the police station and meet the chief of police. The chief took my brother to a jail cell and showed him that this was where kids who steal end up. That was a pretty scary experience for him, and I thought about it vicariously. When they got home, dad punished him further by taking the screws out of his favorite toy gun so that it lay in pieces, and then took a leather knife and cut up his belt and holster into a bunch of little pieces, and then made him take it out to the garbage and dispose of it. My brother was heart-broken, while I looked on. I think that kind of ended our desire to steal crab apples.
As the years went by, a lot of other things took the place of stealing, which had mostly to do with disobeying the rules. Mom had a lot of rules that we kids thought were ridiculous or unreasonable. For example, in Grade 2 our bed-time was something like 6:00 p.m. After one year (Grade 3) we got to stay up until 6:30. A year later it became 7:00 pm. At this rate, by the time I was in Grade 10, bed-time was 10:00 pm. It stayed at 10:00 pm. all thru high school, because that was when mom and dad went to bed. For years we had been arguing with mom that other kids our wage got to stay up, and even play outside, long past the hours we had to live by. Her response was that that was how other kids got into trouble and went on to commit crimes. I didn't see how that would be possible if we got to stay up, but inside the house. Also, because my brother was one grade behind me in school, he got to stay up that half-hour one year earlier than I. That wasn't fair, I thought! The real truth of all this was that making kids go to bed early was a good way to get them "out of your hair". And when you go to bed at 10:00 pm., you don't want to have the kids up making a noise so you can't sleep. This was all about convenience and control, and little or nothing to do with our welfare at heart.
As we got older, the spankings got harder. They progressed to leather straps, plastic hair brushes (including spanking with the stiff bristles), wooden spoons, fly swatters and belts with metal buckles. They were not limited to the derrier. Sometimes it became random swinging, and it didn't matter where it landed. My brother chose the Flight option. When mom came at him with a wooden spoon, for example, he took off running around the house. As he ran, he would duck into the bathroom, with mom right on his tail. As she swung at him with the spoon, he would duck, and the spoon would break over the bathtub and break in two. That would end the spanking. I can't count how many wooden spoons were broken. By the age of 16, I was ready to rebel, and even leave if necessary. We got very few spankings after that, but certainly lots of lectures on behavior, which added up to a lot of nagging and screaming as far as I was concerned.
Suffice it to say, these discipinary actions left their marks on each of us. For me it has been a lengthy process over many years, but I learned forgiveness. I love mom, and forgive her, and have moved on. (I can forgive, but I can't forget.) I just think that mom has had issues with her short-temper" and lack of anger management. It was about control at all costs. This is an issue that has continued long past childhood. And yet, there were many good times too, and mom has revealed herself as being loving and kind-hearted and fair-minded. In recent times, there were circumstances where I don't know what I could have done without her. She is also very ticked off with the JW policy of disfellowshipment and how they treat people, and how so many JW marriages she has known have ended in failure and divorce. She is my MOM!
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Now I am ready to move on to the next episode, where I become a fully-commited JW.
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



To: boy@crossroads:
When I was excommunicated from the Mormon Church, I most certainly am regarded and treated differently. They treat excommunication very seriously, and they see your eternal salvation as being lost, unless you repent. But it does not necessarily follow that they have to "Shun" you like the JW's do. Further, they would not be socializing with you either, and it you wanted to still be friends with them, they would certainly be councilling you to repent and consider coming back to the "True Church" and the Priesthood. Having been an Elder in the Mormon Church, if I wanted to get my Priesthood back, it would have to be restored by one of the Apostles of the Church, which is right up there at the top of the Church hierarchy based in Salt Lake City, Utah. I know of one who was excommunicated and then later came back to the Church. He got re-baptised, but still could not hold the Priesthood until he had it restored by one of the 12 Apostles of the Church. He waited until one of the Apostles visited the Ward where he attended, and while he visited, he met with the guy and re-conferred the Priesthood on him.
An excommunicated Mormon is allowed to attend Church, but is not allowed to partake of the sacraments.
You will find your visit to the Mormon Church very interesting, and the Mormons a very friendly people. They will treat you very kindly, and befriend you, and, of course, would love to send the Missionaries to your home and give you the Book of Mormon as a free gift, and start you in on their discussions. It is a very thorough and well-organized program to steer you in the direction of becoming a Mormon. The problem is not so much what they tell you, for a lot of it is often pretty easy to accept. The real problem is all of the stuff they DON'T tell you about, and that you may or may not even know or find out about until much later. That is where most of the X-Mormons come from, much later, given what they later discover is also part of their Church History and their Revelations, and become shocked and disillusioned.
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About the Giant Mushroom. I know of some of those fairy tales, and gnomes and elves, etc., but age 6 I had not heard of any of this stuff. But this was absolutely what happened. I did find a giant mushroom. I remember looking at it and wondering if I could eat it all myself. I thought it was enough to feed the whole family. And when the sprinkle of rain came, and that's all it was, I held that mushroom over my head like an umbrella. No, it did not cover my whole head. I just held it up, kind of like pretending it was an umbrella. It seemed so natural, and, of course, kids have a lot of imagination.
Regards!
rod p

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #4
I couldn't wait for that first meeting with the Reverend. After exchanging background information, we agreed to discuss various JW doctrines over a number of weekly meetings, with the first one being the Soul Doctrine. Not being a JW yet , my objective here was to put JW teachings to the test with a minister and biblical scholar. His library seemed to me to be quite impressive, especially when it came to the various books of the Bible. My modus operandi was to study the JW publications on the doctrines, and to memorize the arguments and the scriptures applicable to each topic. This would all be done at home, and then we would meet at his place and have our discussions.
When we talked about the Soul, of course, it was to prove that the bible taught that man did not have an immortal soul, but that man was a soul made out of the dust of the earth (the elements), into which God breathed into man's nostrils the "breath of life" (the life force), "and man became a living soul". Ezekiel 18:4 stated that the "Soul that sins shall die." Also, "man has no pre-eminence over the beasts. As one dieth, so dieth the other." This discussion went on for some time, and the Reverend listened attentively, and did not interrupt. In the end, he stated that the United Church Scholars had also done a lot of research on this subject, and essentially they agreed with the JW position on this subject. I went away, thrilled with the confirmation that the doctrine the JW's were teaching on the Soul was the "Truth".
I do not recall the order of the topics we discussed during subsequent meetings. One of the subjects was "Baptism by Immersion". The Reverend agreed, and said that anyone who got baptized in the United Church, while baptism by sprinkling was generally the practice, if anyone wanted to be baptized by immersion, that was perfectly OK, and they would be accommodated. Well, it made more sense to me, that if Jesus Christ was baptized by full immersion, then we should do no less. Sprinkling was just not good enough. Again, I thought the JW's taught more "Truth" than the United Church did.
At another meeting, we talked about Hell. Hell (Gehenna) was not to be taken literally when it talked about fire, and the place where "the worm dieth not", but rather symbolically. The Bible taught that Hell (Hades) was the common grave of mankind. Again, the Reverend concurred, and that their scholars basically came to the same conclusions.
On the Trinity doctrine, the idea of Three Gods in One God, did not make good or logical sense. It made a lot more sense that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were One in Purpose, rather than One in Nature, Essence or Being. While Christendom essentially teaches this concept, and the United Church is a part of this, still the Reverend did not have much to argue about respecting the JW stand on the Trinity.
When it came to the subject of Evolution, I argued that this vast and complex universe could not have come into existence from nothing and by mere random chance probability. There had to be a First Cause, and that is God. We went on to discuss some of the major premises of Evolution (eg. natural selections, survival of the fittest, mutations, missing links, etc.) and also some of the problems with carbon dating. I believed that Evolution was a false doctrine, and a throry that cannot be proven, and which required as much faith to believe in it as a Christian had to have to believe in God and the Biblical account of Creation. On this whole subject, the Reverend agreed with much about the fact that there was a God who created the Universe, but that no-one had all of the answere, and maybe God brough about Creation BY Evolution. In other words, the theory of Evolution maystill have a place in the big picture. I could see his point, but would have to think about it, and do some more research. I went home, all the more convinced that JW's had the "Truth". Still, I had doubts.
For a few weeks I attended the United Church services. I enjoyed his Sermons, and he always seemed to look at me in the audience to see how I was responding to his sermons. On one Sunday he invited me to come along with him to his 2nd Congregation in the Town of Irvine, a few miles east of Medicine Hat. I found it quite interesting, and enjoyed meeting a lot of farm people. Then the Reverend told me he was going away for a couple of weeks, and he needed someone to take his place by delivering sermons at his two congregations. He had one person for one Sunday already, and wondered if I would be willing to take the other Sunday. I agreed, and so now had to decide what the sermon should be. I had been receiving the Watchtowers and Awakes by subscription in the mail, and one of them had an article "Faith in Faith, is that Your Faith?" I felt that the United Church was too liberal and wishy-washy in their definitions of "Truth", and that their faiths should be more precisely and accurately defined. Too many people were simply going to Church and believing in Jesus Christ and their Church, yet really didn't know or understand what they believed. It became a "Faith in Faith". This article really brought the issue into focus, and basically "woke us up" to the need to define what our faith consisted of. I delivered the essence of those concepts in the sermon to those Congregations. When the Reverend returned, he advised that he received excellent reports on the responses to the sermons, and wanted to know what I said to them. I then told him about the contents.
As time went on, I expressed an interest in going to University and studying Hebrew and Greek. It would have meant that I would be doing it under the auspices or sponsorship of the United Church, and that essentially I would be in training for the Ministry. I most certainly wasn't convinced that the United Church was the be-all-and-end-all, but it would be a way for me to get into those halls of learning where I could become expert in Hebrew and Greek, which were the languages of the Bible at the time of the writing of the various books of the Bible. That way I would be equipped to understand the Bible as it was originally written, and be able to expertly decide the correct interpretations of scripture, and not have to depend on others to decide this for me.
Mom and dad knew that I had been meeting with the Reverend, and that I was attending Church on Sundays. One day, quite by surprise, I came home and found some members from the United Church visiting with mom and dad. They were talking to them, trying to get them to pledge money on a monthly basis in support of the United Church. This was all on the basis that I was attending there. This did not go over very well with mom and dad, and after that I made a decision to stop attending. They felt the Reverend was into this more for the money than anything else. Also, they said that if I became a United Church Minister, it would be quite a feather in his cap for the Reverend.
In a private conversation one night, dad told me that if I was going to go to University to become a Minister of the United Church, go ahead, but don't look to him to finance my way. I told him that I did not necessarily want to go to University to become a United Church Minister. Rather, I had to have a sponsorship from some Church to get into the religion faculty, and I wanted to study Hebrew and Greek so that in the end I would be in a position to prove from the Bible what really was the "Truth".
At that point, dad said that if I was on this great quest for "Truth" then to be fair and open and comprehensive about it, when I was done studying the Bible, I would also need to go to India and study Hinduism and Buddhism, and similarly visit other countries like China and Japan and the Continent of Africa, and study all of the other religions. Then and only then would I be in a position to decide what is the "Truth". Secretly I said to myself "Yes dad, I am willing to do even that!"
Dad then reminded me that he will die believing this (JW Teachings) was the Truth, but that he didn't have the guts to go back to it, because the minute he did, there would be a lot of conflict and arguing with Mother.
I did a lot of thinking about what dad had told me. I felt sorry for him, that he did not have the courage of his own convictions. I also thought about the fact that research showed whatever primary issues remained undealt with or left unresolved by a parent of one generation, the children usually end up having to deal with it in order to finally resolve it. I was determined to find the "Truth" and to KNOW that I had found it, even though my dad had just kind of gave up on everything!
Meanwhile, back at High School (Grade 12) there were a lot of serious subjects and exams to prepare for. I focused on that until the end of school. I began to "cool" on the idea of becoming a Minister for a Church I did not really feel committed to. This, by no means meant that I was going to abandon my search for "Truth". However, I had just completed two years of Electricity and Electronics, and had extremely high marks, and I really loved that field of endeavor. Since I was going to have to find a way to finance my own career, I applied for jobs at a couple of Banks for after, when I graduated from high school. I would save up the necessary funds to go to College or University, perhaps in the field of Electronics. At least that was the plan.
It was July 1961, only ten days out of school, and I found myself working at the Bank of Nova Scotia in downtown Medicine Hat. This was a whole new world to me, the world of Business. I had to learn bookkeeping and accounting principals, the law and economics and government and politics, and all kinds of things I knew nothing about. Most of all, I had to learn about the Banking business. I felt like a babe in the woods. My first pay cheque was $175.00 for the first month of pay.That was the first and only time I had so much money I didn't know what to do with it all. After that, I learned how to spend. For the first year I had to learn how to be a Drafts Clerk, a Ledger Keeper and a Teller. I would get a ride to work in the mornings by dad, and would catch the bus back home after work. I still lived at home with mom and dad in Redcliff.
Friday nights I would usually stay down in the Hat and take in a movie or whatever, then catch the late bus home. (Mom and dad went out Friday nights, so never had to worry about bed times.) One Friday night I wasn't doing anything, and things were kind of boring. So I wandered across the bridge and walked to the Kingdom Hall, where they were having Kingdom Ministry School. There they taught Public Speaking, and put on field service demonstrations, etc. I found it quite interesting, so started to attend regularly each Friday night. I enrolled, and started to learn public speaking (Audience contact, use of notes, gestures, subject theme emphasized, extemporaneous speaking, etc.). A number of them attended the Kingdom Hall who lived in Redcliff, and they offered to give me rides home after the meetings. After a while I started to attend Watchtower meetings on Sundays, and would get rides down to the Hall with one of the brethren in Redcliff. Then I started to attend Tuesday night bookstudies with Gerry N. and others in one of the homes. Gerry N's wife used to be active, but at a certain point decided she could not believe the teachings, and so became inactive. We became good friends, as we shared a love of music. Then I began attending Bible studies with Gerry N. on Wednesday nights. He was having these studies in the home of Brother M with his wife, a non-believer, and I simply joined them. These Bible studies were very intense. Even though they lasted only one hour, we would continue on and discuss for hours all of the various JW teachings and doctrines and bible prophesy, etc. It was like I was making up for lost time, and I'm sure Gerry N. didn't mind, because he got to report all that time on his "field service report.
The problem was, I was starting to come in at 11:00 p.m. and midnight Tuesday and Wednesday nights, while mom and dad went to bed at 10:00 p.m. Mom would lay there in bed, but would not go to sleep until after she heard the door open and me going into my bedroom. The next day, I would be given a lot of accusatory looks, because now mom was over-tired due to my coming home so late and "waking her up" when I came in the door. There would be complaints and lectures about coming in so late as well. However, now I was 18, and I was doing nothing wrong; just studying the Bible at some friends' place. I also had my own money, since I was now earning a living in a good steady job. The time for treating me like a kid was over, and she knew it. I became expert at opening the door completely silently. I knew every squeek in the floor, and how to avoid them. I could turn on the furnace with the thermostat, then sneak into the bedroom without being heard or detected. However, mom would still be miffed at that, because then she would have to stay awake even longer, and finally had to get up and check the bedroom to see if I had returned home. This was a "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situation, and I detested it. I felt persecuted by mom's attitude, thinking this was all about the fact that she couldn't stand that I was studying with JW's. (On the other hand, it could have been that she just wanted me to be home and go to bed when she did, and I never could see that as a reasonable expectation.) The tension between us started to grow and grow, and there was a very negative atmosphere around the house. And yet, when my birthday came around in April 1963, and things were very bad between us, mom got me this beautiful briefcase that I needed to do field service with. I couldn't thank her enough, and I loved her for it, yet the tension between us still persisted.
I believe it was in July of 1963 that a Convention was being held in Medicine Hat. I was approached by one Brother Ted who asked if I would like to get baptized then. I was totally surprised, but then it also made a lot of sense to me since I felt I was ready to make the commitment. So I said "Yes." Then he asked me if I would mind if they put my name in the local newspaper, as they are doing an article on the Convention, in which they mention who was baptized on that occasion. I said "OK." since I couldn't see there would be any harm in that, and I thought the only ones who would be interested in reading about that would be other Witnesses. Boy, I could not have been more wrong! Also, I never said anything to mom and dad about getting baptized, as I just thought it was an internal religious matter, and mom and dad did not really want to talk about what goes on inside the JW activities. At the Convention that weekend, I along with a few others, rose and affirmed our dedication to Jehovah, and after that were driven to the Kingdom Hall where we were all baptized by immersion. And that was it. Now I was officially a JW.
Little did I know of the storm clouds that would now be looming over the horizon as a direct result of this baptism that was reported in the local newspaper. That will be covered in the next episode, where I will talk about my life as a JW and how I got married.
LOL
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Hey People!
I haven't forgotten you.
I still have to make a living, so need to book off a few days.
Also, I have been surfing a few other good threads, and had to stick my two cents in here and there.
Will get back next week.
LOL
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #5
The phone started ringing off the hook, and mom was the one who usually answered the phone. People from all over Medicine Hat and Redcliff were calling and asking "Is that your son I read about in the paper, getting baptised as a JW?" At first mom said she didn't know anything about it because I never said anything to her. When she asked me and I confirmed that I did get baptised, she got very upset and told me about all the phone calls, and how embarrassing it all was, because she had to find out second-hand from others. I tried to apologise, explaining that I just didn't know think it was such a bid deal, and she and dad did not seeem to be interested in anything I was doing with the Witnesses. After that, things went from bad to worse.
As a JW, I settled into the work of field service. One Saturday we were in a car filled with six witnesses, travelling in the countryside and knocking on farmhouse doors. It was Magazine day, so we were offering Watchtowers and Awakes. We came to the door of a guy who despised JW's. It was my turn, and someone in the car warned me about him. I went to the door with a companion beside me. I did the talking, and introduced ourselves as "members of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society". As I was talking, I could see he was pretty agitated. He said he was not interested, so we politely left and went back to the car. As we were preparing to drive away, the guy stomped out of his house, and jumped into his pick-up truck that was parked about 30 feet from where we were. A little boy, who looked about three years old, was sitting in the dirt right behind the left rear wheel of the truck, digging with a spoon. We all sat there in our car, staring at this unbelievable scene unfolding before our eyes, as the guy backed up his truck and ran over his little boy. It happened so fast there was no time to react, and that wqs the last thing anyone would have expected. Realizing what he had just done, he immediately jumped out of his trunk, scooped up his son and jumped back in his truck, and stormed off at a high rate of speed. No doubt he was now rushing to the hospital in town. We were all pretty shook up, and I felt an overwhelming sense of guilt that maybe I had triggered the whole thing, hurting this small child. If he hated JW's before, imagine how much he hated us now. This incident haunts me to this day, and I often wonder if that boy made out OK.
A short while later, I took a one-week vacation from the bank. At the assembly where I got baptised, I had met a guy whose name was Lee H. We became friends, and he lived in the town of Brooks, about 70 miles west of Medicine Hat, and he invited me to stay at his place. I decided to go Pioneering on my one-week vacation, and so I travelled to Brooks by Greyhound bus, and stayed with my new-found friend.It was fun, and this was the first time I had ever been away from home on my own. The congregation in Brooks was small (about 40) and I found everyone quite freindly. One of the Witnesses, Otto H., was a Reflexologist, who worked from his home, and patients would book appointments in advance. This gave him a lot of flexibility, as he could set his own hours and days for working. This enabled him to do field service on other days, which is why he became a full-time Pioneer, meaning at least 150 hours of field service a month. So while Lee was at work, I went around with Otto H, pioneering together.
Brooks was a town of about 3,000 people. Within a radius of 30 miles there were a number of smaller towns, each with a population of a few hundred (some even smaller). About 15 miles north and west of Brooks were the small towns of Rosemary and Duchess. In this rural area there lived a lot of Mormons and Mennonites, and the odd Japanese Buddhist. Years earlier all this land had been given to the Canadian Pacific Railroad (CPR) by the Government of Canada. In order to develop communities all along the railroad, the CPR offered the land for sale at $1.00 per acre to anyone who was willing to become a homesteader here. This attracted a lot of people to the area. The land was a vast prairie, which meant dry-land farming. To minimize risk against crop failures, and also to increase crop yields, they built the world's longest aqueduct running from the town of Bassano 30 mile west of Brooks, running straight past Brooks, and on to the town of Tilley, some 20 miles east of Brooks. This was built in the 1920's, and in its day, was an engineering marvel. This allowed the whole region to be irrigated with a reliable and controlled water supply. The Bow River wound south from the City of Calgary, which then fed into this aqueduct. Every so many miles the water would be released into head-ditches, which would feed down main canals, and then branch off to the various sections of farmland. This whole area became known as the Eastern Irrigation District (E.I.D.) and geographically was called the County of Newell. In the early years, when Brooks was first established, the town was named after its first Mayor- Mr. Brooks, who imported all kinds of trees and plants and planted them in the area. That is why Brooks and the surrounding area is so beautiful with countless deciduous trees everywhere you look, like an oasis in the desert.
This is where I did my Pioneering work. A number of JW's lived on farms in the County, and would drive into Brooks for the meetings at the Kingdom Hall. I was able to visit a number of these people on their farms. This brought back memories of my childhood when I lived on the farm with the Fishers. I fell in love with the area! As we knocked on doors, I met a number of Mennonites who, while they were polite, they were just not interested in listening to the messages of JW's. Mormons, however, loved to get into discussions. At one door, I met a Noel C. who was a school teacher, married with a family, and a former Mormon missionary. He was very well-versed in the Bible, and was very skilled in debating. He listened to my presentation (I was alone at his door.) Suddenly, he asked me where I got my authority to preach, because unless I could demonstrate that I had that authority, I had no right to be going around preaching religion to others. I told him this was a very good subject, and would like to come back again when we could discuss this matter more thoroughly. The truth was, I needed to be better prepared when up against someone with this level of knowledge and sophistication at articulating his points of view. Of course, as a JW, we relied on the Bible as God's Word, which would lead us to an understanding of the "Truth" The Bible was our authority, because we were preaching what the Bible said. At a subsequent meeting with Noel C. I explained our position on Authority. What he then told me, threw me for a loop. He said that there are many religions preaching and teaching from that same book, the Bible. Also, there are hundreds of translations of the Bible, and they don't all agree on every verse, especially those that have doctrinal implications. How then, can you be sure that you have the correct interpretation of Scripture? How do you know for sure that the other guy, or the other Church doesn't have the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, on this or that doctrine? Isn't it just a matter of opinion or debate as to who is right and who is wrong? On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that your Church was given the Authority from God to act or speak in His Name, then and only then, can you know that your interpretation is correct. I told him that the Bible teaches "By their fruits you shall know them." He countered that there are many Churches with many men and women who have the Christian "fruits" (faith, hope and charity, etc.) and live exemplary lives that would rival any of the JW's. So this is not necessarily a proof of Authority. Noel C. went on to explain that it was the Priesthoold that was the Authority from God. In Old Testament days, they had the Aaronic Priesthood, and the Priesthhod after the order of Melchizedek. One would not dare to speak for God unless one was ordained of the Priesthood. This was a very sobering experience for me, and left me baffled. What if he was right? I would have to dig into this subject further, to not only prove that Mormons did not have that authority, but that JW's did. I knew it was going to take some time to resolve this issue, and I only had a one-week vacation, and all my books were at home.
Anyway, one day we paid a visit to the farm of the "D. family" They were devout JW's, although the parents originally had been "converts". At the time, they had one daughter, age 18, and four younger brothers, all being raised in the "Truth". They attended school in the town of Rosemary, two miles from the farm. They were the only JW's in the school, where a couple of Buddhist kids also attended. The rest of the kids were either Mennonite or Mormon. The "D" kids often felt singled out and picked on by a lot of the Mormon kids, who behaved like "brats", and thought they were "It!". This made them stick together as JW's, and they were very loyal to the Watchtower Society.
I was very attracted to this young girl, a couple of years younger than me.They had a big party at the farm on the weekend, and pretty well the whole congrgation showed up. We had a ball. During the day the farmhand, Ed P., who lived there on the farm with his wife and two sons, came in from the field riding on this beautiful brown horse. He told me her name was Jeannie, and she was a very gentle horse, and I could ride her if I wanted to. He instructed me on the signals for "stop" and "go", left and right turns pulling on the reins, and how to ride in the saddle. I was dressed in my 3-piece banker's suit, with cuff-links in my shirt. I mounted up on Jeannie, and away we went. The only problem was, the stirrups were too long for my feet to reach comfortably. I could reach them only if I stood up in the saddle, when my toes could just touch the stirrups. We got out in the field, and Jeannie went from a walk to a trot. I told her "Whoah!", but she then went into a gallup, and then a full gallup. I was bouncing up and down in the saddle, and started to panic. I grabbed the reins, and pulled as hard as I could, and yelled "Whoooaaaah!" Except, I had only grabbed on to the left rein, so Jeannie thought I was signalling a left turn. I didn't know a horse could make a 90 degree turn that fast while galluping full tilt. As she swerved left, I went straight up in the air, and then straight down, and made a one-point landing on my butt. It knocked the wind out of me, and I landed so hard, the two cuff-links fell right out of my shirt. Don't ask me how! I looked down the field and saw Jeannie half a mile away, still galloping as hard as she could along the fenceline. I limped back to the farmhouse, and explained what happened. Ed P. went out and retrieve the horse. That was the last time I ever rode a horse. Still, all in all, we had a lot of fun on the farm that weekend. At the end of my vacation, I have to say it was a memorable experience, and I made a lot of new friends. I promised to write this pretty young girl I just met when I got back home. Her name was June D.
Now back home and at work, I was working as a Teller. I was having a lot of difficulty balancing my Cash at the end of each day. My bank manager had read in the paper about my JW baptism, and was very upset. I discovered his distaste for JW's when he called me into his office and asked if I had really become a JW. When I told him "Yes", he told me about a Church where the members allow themselves to be bitten by snakes, and then pray to God to get healed. "You can't tell me that is Religion!" he asserted. "And this standing on the street corners with Watchtowers and Awakes! Don't tell me that is Religion!" I could have argued this from the Bible, about how Jesus commanded his followers to preach the gospel, etc. But he was my Boss, and he was angry, so I just kept quiet. He finished his lecture, told me to think about it, and let me back to my work. Now, as I was having so much troubled balancing my daily Cash, he blamed the JW religion as the reason. He told the branch accountant that I wasn't concentrating on my work, because my head was thinking too much about religion.This wasn't true, of course. I just couldn't get things to balance. The accountant looks at your journal sheet daily, and if you're out, would try to help you find the differences. If you were short, the bank would charge you for the shortfall. They would record this on a ledgersheet in your name, and then deduct payments from your pay cheques to repay the Cash Shorts. One day, when I had another Cash Short, the Manager called the accountant into his office and told him "Let's fire him!" The accountant refused. The manager asked him "Why?" He said, "I lost nine brothers in the war fighting for our freedom of speech and religion, and it's people like you who will try to take it all away!" The accountant left his office, went to me and helped me find the difference. He told me what happened, and said "He's out to get you, you know." I continued on, trying very hard each day to balance, and did significantly improve.
Finally they took me off "Cash" and put me in the Loans and Discounts department. Suddenly the world of banking opened up to me, and I began to see the "bigger picture". Things clicked! I felt happy in my job, and knew I could succeed. A day came when they transferred one of the tellers to another city, so that our branch was short one teller. Wouldn't you know it, they put me back on "Cash". I groaned! But at the end of Day 1- "Sight balance." (meaning cash was balanced right off in 15 minutes, no recounts). Day 2- "Sight balance." Day after Day, this kept happening. It was amazing. "Very few tellers could achieve that" I was told. The bank manager later commented that every once in a while someone comes along who has trouble in one department. You take them off that department and put them in another, and they do well. Then you put them back where they were having trouble, and suddenly they "take off" with success. He said I must be one of them. He asked me if I was still a JW, and I told him I was.
One day a Western Canada Staff Department Supervisor visited the Branch. He interviewed us all one by one. In my interview, I explained some of the problems I was having at home, and that I was now older and needed to get out on my own. He smiled and said "Well, Rod, we'll see what the Bank can do for you." In two weeks my bank manager received a letter stating that I was being transferred out to the Airdrie Branch, about 20 miles north of Calgary, Alberta. I was to relieve the "Chief Clerk" (Branch Accountant) for one month, while he was away on holidays, and after that, I was to be transferred in to a downtown branch in Calgary. I was jubilant. Now it could never be said that I moved out of our home because of the JW Religion; the Bank had transferred me out, so I had to leave.
Obviously, I needed a car. My uncle had an old 1949 Ford parked out in his field. He sold it to me for $150.00. I was ready to face the world! I remember driving down that Trans-Canada Highway to my new home in Airdrie. It was very exciting, and I couldn't wait. Whenever a staff member gets transferred, the bank manager writes a letter to the manager of the branch where you are going to, with a copy to the District Staff Department. The branch accountant told me he read the letter, and commented that he had never seen a better letter of recommendation on file in all his years of banking. I guess he must have gotten over his hatred toward me as a J.W.
A few months earlier, I started writing letters to June D from the farm. She had graduated from Grade 12, and now wanted to go to post-seconday school to get training to become a Secretary. She decided to move to Medicine Hat and go to business college there. I helped her find a place to live. Would you believe it was the home of Grandma Fisher from the old farm, and who I studied with in High School. We began to see each other regularly, and we attended meetings together, and went out in field service together. We fell deeply in love, and we were planning to get married. But now I was being transferred out by the bank. This left June feeling pretty alone and kind of isolated, because I was her close companion.
When in Airdrie, and later Calgary, I would travel 180 miles from Calgary to Medicine Hat every weekend. I would stay with mom and dad, but spent most of the time with June. Soon the day came when June had completed her courses in Secretarial School, and now was ready to get a job. That summer we went to the International Convention in Pasedena, California. I had arranged a two-week holiday with the Bank. We all went to Pasedena with the D Family. I remember how we were all crammed into their stationwagon. It was a great trip, and we enjoyed the Assembly, but it was very hot there. By the end of the week we were all sick of Mexican food, and couldn't wait to get home for some roast beef and mashed potatoes smothered in brown gravy. After that, June moved to Calgary, and in due time got a Secretarial job, and took board and room at the home of the Congregation Overseer and his family. I was staying at the home of an elderly sister as well, with room and board. So now we were both living in Calgary, and looking forward to the big day when we would get married.
We settled into a routine, attending meetings, giving talks and going out in field service. I bought her a ring, and we celebrated our engagement. We planned a wedding for May 1964, which was less than a year away. One Saturday morning June and I went out in field service, making short presentations and offering magazines. There was only half an hour available, so in order to cover the entire block, June went one way and I went the other, and we were to meet each other on the other side of the block. June ended up on this one doorstep where she had a very interesting discussion with a guy who happened to be Mormon. His name was John C., and he was married with three kids, and also had a brother who was JW in Edmonton, Alberta. He therefore, was very familiar with JW teachings.
Because "Magazine Day" called for short presentations, June suggested we set up a meeting for another day, and she would introduce John C to me. The following week we did the visit, and we found the family very friendly. John and I hit it off immediately. At this meeting we set up the "ground rules" for later discussions. We decided to have a series of weekly discussions, and for each meeting we would focus on a single topic or doctrine. We also agreed to use the King James version of the Bible. We further agreed that we would listen to one another's presentations without interruption, after which we could ask questions and debate the subject. Looking at the list of topics, we tried to find a doctrine where Mormons and JW's differed the most. The most obvious was the "Soul Doctrine", because the JW's taught that when we die, we do not have a spirit or soul that leaves the body and lives on after death, whereas Mormons believed that we do. After the meeting, we went home, and I prepared for the next meeting. I was absolutely convinced we could prove from the Bible that we do not have an immortal soul, and that when we die, we do not live on as a spirit. At the next meeting, I proceeded to quote Ezekiel 18:4 "...the Soul that sinneth, it shall die". Then Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."So God created man from the "dust of the earth" - the elements, and breathed into man the "breath of life"- the life force, and it was this that made man a "living soul". You "are a Soul" NOT you "have a Soul". We got into Hebrew and Greek words for soul and spirit and talked about ruah, pneuma, psuche, nephesh, etc. We looked at scriptures that showed no man has an immortal soul. I Corinthians 15: 53, 54 talks of mortal man putting on immortality. I Timothy 6:16 says "who only hath immortality" referring to the Lord God. Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 ".....a man hath no preeminence above a beast....All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again". The Bible uses the word "Soul"over 8,000 times, and speaks of it as dieing, being killed or captured, being weak or hungry, and all kinds of other attributes that show man is a soul, and it is not immortal. How then, can the Mormon Church be true? This was the thrust of the argument.
John C. agreed that in all these places, the use of the word "Soul" is in the context of man being a soul, but that none of these passages can be regarded as relevant to the doctrine of the soul, as they in now way speak about the nature of man. It is true that man is mortal, meaning he dies, and he seeks immortality, which means afterwards he would no longer be subject to death. But this does not address the question of the Nature of Man.
In terms of what happens when we die, when God created Adam, Genesis talks about him being made of the dust of the earth, and God bretehd nto his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living soul. This is talking about the Creation of man's body, and the breath of life that makes the living soul alive. But this does not necessarily prove that a spirit could not or does not inhabit the body. (Mormons believe in the preexistence of the spirti, that we were spirit children in Heaven before we came to earth to experience mortality and to obtain a physical body.) John asked me to consider Jeremiah 1: 1, 4-5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I santified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." John asked "How can someone be foreordained if he did not yet exist? Some argue that this is about the foreknowledge of God, but that is a weak argument."
Then there is Ecclesiastes 12:
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
"If the spirit returns to God at death, surely the Bible is teaching that man has more than just the "breath of life" or "life force"
As we finished that meeting, it began to dawn on me that the Bible does not make its teachings clear and concise in every instance, but can be subjected to different interpretations. Even though we were in two different religious camps, believing the same book "the Bible", yet it was obvious we are believing diametrically opposite beliefs on the same doctrine using the same book to "prove" our respective interpretations. What is wrong with this picture?
A number of other meetings were subsequently held. We discussed the Trinity Doctrine on one occasion, and while there were differences, Mormons and JW's both disagree with the concept of "Three Gods in One God". However, JW's teach that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah's "activating force" whereas Mormons say the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct personage, but does not have a body, while God the Father and Jesus Christ both have a body. They are "One" in terms of "Purpose" rather than in "Nature". This was a discussion that could go on for hours, maybe even days. We would never be able to fully resolve the differences one way or another, and it is a subject that can get extremely complicated. Christendom calls the "Trinity" a "Mystery" that we mere mortals simply cannot comprehend.
In another meeting we talked about the Hell doctrine, and we agreed that the Bible speaks symbolically about Hell, and that there is no such thing as a fiery, burning hell where we are literally burned and tortured forever in such a place.
John did tell us about the Joseph Smith story and the Book of Mormon, but we just weren't ready to accept this as true. We did take turns going to one another's meetings. One week John came to the Kingdom Hall and listened to a Watchtower study. The next week June and I went with John to a Mormon Church called a Ward, and we experienced a Sacrament Meeting and a Sunday School session, and I also went to one of their Elders' Quorum meetings. June was not very keen on going to a Mormon Church, but reluctantly went along anyway.
Time was marching on, and the meetings reached a kind of hiatus. We were getting closer to the time for the wedding, and John and his family were moving back to Penticton in B.C., so we would not be seeing each other in the forseeable future. I was not too thrilled with the $275.00 a month I was earning at the bank, so looked for a job elsewhere and found one as an assistant accountant with the Canadian Bronze Company. The company sold brass and bronze merchandise, and repaired and electroplated car bumpers that had been damaged in car accidents. They started me off at $300.00 a month. I now felt we were better prepared to live as a married couple and be able to cover our living costs. June was not going to be working at a job, so this would be our sole family income.
Now it was time to concentrate on plans for the wedding. We decided to have a "garden wedding" on the farm of June's family. I checked with the Weather Bureau for some historical data as to what the weather had been like over the years on the weekend of May 16, and statistically it looked quite promising. However, if the weather did turn out to be bad, we needed to be ready with alternate plans for an "indoor wedding". My dad said we had to be the world's "biggest optimists" planning for an outdoor wedding in May. It was not unusual around the Province of Alberta for there to be rain or snow at that time of year. Anyway, on the day of the wedding, the weather turned out to be bright and sunny, warm and very still. Some flowers were in bloom, and spring was definitely in the air. It could not have been better. The wedding was a beautiful success. The reception and dance was held in a rented hall in Brooks. At about 10:30 that night, we changed into clothes that were more comfortable, said our last goodbyes on the dance floor, and drove off into the night, back to Calgary and into our new apartment we had just rented. Half-way home, we ran into a very big snowstorm, and thought we weren't going to make it. Talk about how close this came to ruining the outdoor wedding. We considered ourselves very fortunate indeed!
After our one-week honeymoon, we settled down into married life. Everything was beautiful, and we were very happy. Or so we thought..........
................................................................to be continued.

Jaypeeto
Jaypeeto 11 years ago

I too got involved with the Mormons (actually got baptized by them) for several months before eventually becoming a Christian. Nice people, but I just couldn't stomach the doctrine that God the father has a flesh & bones body AND a heavenly literal WIFE up there, from whom our spirits were all born before we came to earth to get a body. Also couldn't take the teaching that God the Father (Elohim) actually came down to earth and, well, fertilized the Virgin Mary so that Jesus was eventually born. I'll say this for them, they are a much more charitable organization than the Witnesses ever will be. Love, Jaypeeto

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



To Jaypeeto:
Sorry to hear about your nervous breakdown over the JW thing. I believe that one of the reasons people get to such a state inside the JW Organization (and many other religions or cults as well) is that people who are attracted to faith and religion are usually much more sensitive than most. This is because they aspire towards being loving, meek, gentle and peaceful, and strive to be good and try to be "more perfect". They are not equipped to handle pressures and censorship and disapprovals and chastisements and crises. And when you are a JW, they are your whole life, your whole support network. If you lose that support, it can lead to some very real mental, psychological and spiritual dilemmas, even breakdowns.
I know that a lot of Mormon teachings can be a real struggle to accept. Stay tuned, and I will share with you why Mormons accept these things by faith, often quite readily, and how I ended up questioning the entire system.
My struggle in faith and religion has never been over the sincere, well-meaning followers of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons. My beefs have always focused on the Leadership, the ones that teach and control all this, while you and I are virtually expected to just blindly accept it, and don't question and challenge anything, and pretty well keep your mouth shut or else there will be some real consequences to follow. In other words, never question their Authority....or else!
I see by your "Profile" that you spent time with the Presbyterians and more recently became affiliated with the Catholic Church. Before I became a Mormon, I delved into the Catholic Church to quite an extent. It became an issue of Mormons vs. Catholics. You may find this of interest in one of my upcoming Episodes (soon to come).
I hope you are finding life peaceful, enjoyable and fulfilling these days.
LOL,
Rod P.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #6
One weekend there was a Calgary District Assembly which the wife and I attended. There was a talk on a Saturday morning after which we prepared to do field service. There were a number of us who got together in a car pool, and we were going to go to a territory in our 1949 Ford and offer magazines. One young lady asked if she could please join us, to which we said "Yes." I immediately saw two "Elders" come up to her, pull her aside, and proceed to scold her for talking to us, since it turned out she was disfellowshipped. She apologized, and just stood there crying, while looking at us longingly. I looked back at her, lip-synching "I'm sorry!", and away we went. I remember feeling very sorry for her, being all alone and trying to reach out for some companionship. I could feel her pain, and it just didn't feel right to treat anyone that way. It was hard to comprehend that this was "love" from Jehovah's "Loving Organization". This was the first time I actually watched Disfellowshipment in action, and I was not impressed.
In the congregation we attended, I was appointed as Magazine-Territory Servant. My predecessor told me that much needed to be done to organize things, and that some existing territories were too small, while others were way too big for one or two persons to take care of effectively. The first thing I did was go to City Hall and purchase two sets of large-scale maps of the whole downtown area, since these were the boundaries of our congregation. Every single block was shown in detail, even the individual Lots within each block, all of the road allowances and, of course, all the streets and avenues were clearly named. Then we walked around every block and counted the individual residences and businesses. Also, the downtown core had a number of high-rise apartments, and these too were quantified. From there, we were able to determine the appropriate size and boundaries for each territory. Then I mounted one of the maps on a large 4 ft. by 8 ft. board, and drew outlines around each territory which were quite visible from 6 ft. away. Now when someone came to me for a territory, they could easily point out the one they wanted, and then receive the assignment. With the second map, I cut up the individual territories and mounted them on cards, gave them a territory number (which I also inserted on the Big Board Map), and put them in a Card File Box in numerical order. This whole project probably took about 60 - 70 hours work over the course of a month. This whole system was designed to allow individuals to select a territory, receive their assignment and get a copy of their own territory map, while at the same time keeping a record on hand as to who had which territory at any point in time, much like a public library handles books for check-ins and check-outs. This seemed to work quite well, and everyone seemed happy with the system. Then the Circuit Servant visited the congregation. He interviewed each one in a position of leadership. When he looked at the Magazine-Territory Servant, and the way things had been done, his advice was "Your time would have been better spent out in the field service." I did not say anything, but the lesson I learned was "Never do your best at anything, unless it has to do with field service."
After a few months went by, we were visiting the wife's parents on the farm. We were told that the farm-hands were let go, and the sons were old enough now to handle all the work. This left the house they were living in vacant. It was an opportunity for us to live on the farm, a kind of childhood dream come true for me, and a chance for June to be close to her parents and brothers. At the time I had a job interview with a lawyer in Brooks (15 miles from the farm) and he needed an office accountant, and would also train the person he hired on how to do legal collections. He offered me the position with the same income I was earning in Calgary plus commissions on amounts I could bring in from collections. We were very excited, and a month later we moved to the farm. I drove to-and-from work. And, of course, we're now living where a lot of Mormons are too. We all felt very close to each other, like one big happy family!
In field service I encountered a number of these Mormons and had a number of intereesting discussions with them. The questions of having the Authority to Preach came up a lot, so decided to pursue this whole matter. Over the years I had collected a lot fo the older Watchtowers and Awakes, books and booklets, etc, including material from the Rutherford and Russell eras. Then along came the 30-year comprehensive Index to Watchtower Publications. With this tool, I was able to research pretty well any question or topic and find it from the publications that were on hand. When it came to Mormonism and the question of Authority, I was able to find pretty well anything the Society had written on these topics. Of course, Mormons are not the only ones to claim an exclusive authority from God. The Catholic Church makes it s claim to that Authority on the basis of Apostolic Succession. "Thou art Peter (petros), and upon this Rock (petra) I will build my church."
Why was the question of Authority becoming such a priority to me? A few years earlier, back in Medicine Hat, there was an assembly at which the booklet "The Word, Who is He According to John?" was released. Around about this time, there was an article in the Watchtower about "Subjection to Superior Authorities", based on the scripture at Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God." (KJV)
Back in the time of Rutherford and the Second World War, there were a lot of male JW's who ended up in court for not going to war. As a defense, these Witnesses used the scripture at Romans 13:1. The Governing Body's interpretation at the time was that these "Higher Powers" (or what the JW's now called the "Superior Authorities") were none other than Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. In other words, this was their justification for taking their stand against the war. Their subjection was to Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, and NOT to the earthly governments and rulers, or civil authority. The courts brought in members of the clergy, experts in the languages of the Bible and interpretation of scripture, who pointed out that the "Higher Powers" in this scripture were, in fact, the earthly govenments and rulers, and therefore when that authority tells you to go to war against tyranny, then we should obey. But the JW's, of course, were not going to accept their interpretation, because these clergy were part of the world-wide empire of false religion known as "Babylon the Great", and were in the hands of Satan the Devil, the god of this world or "System of Things". And so these JW brethren went to jail.
Now fast forward about 20 years,. Now the Governing Body has this "New Truth" that the "Higher Powers" (or "Superior Authorities" in the NWT) are, in fact, the earthly governments and rulers, and NOT Jehovah God and Christ Jesus as they had taught previously. They then went on to quote other scriptures to show that our subjection to these "Superior Authorities" is a Relative Subjection, so that our subjection can only be so long as their laws do not conflict with God's laws. To the extent man's laws are in conflict with God's laws, then in such instances we must obey God's higher laws rather than that of the Superior Authorities. But this does NOT deal with the real issue here. Nobody, including the clergy, would argue that where men's laws are in contradiction of God's higer laws, we must obey God's before man's laws. However, the question I had at the time, and still have, is: How is it that these so-called evil clergy, as part of this "Babylon the Great", this world-wide empire of false religion under the control of Satan the Devil, possessed this "New Truth" years in advance.of the Governing Body who Jehovah supposedly inspired and revealed this New Truth exclusively to them? Is the Devil revealing Truth to his clergy years in advance of Jehovah revealing the same Truth to his Faithful and Discreet Servant, the Governing Body? Impossible!!! The real Truth is, the Society was wrong in the first place, and then later had to correct their interpretation of scripture, which was simply a "catch-up" to what the clergy and Biblical schollars already knew years earlier. And this is only ONE example of many that could be cited to demonstrate the problem with the Governing Body's claim to "progressive revelation".
After having had quite a few discussions with Mormons along the way, it was becoming clear that one did have to have proper and legitimate Authority to act and preach in the name of God. This would serve as a sign, a proof, that you were receiving and being taught the correct interpretation of scripture, insofar as it is correctly translated. I had learned that merely appealing to the Bible itself to "prove" what the Bible teaches is a fallacy that cannot be successfully maintained. Here's why: Suppose you had two persons of equal intelligence (say 190 I.Q.) who took the identical scripture that had doctrinal implications. Give them the same library research materials, and give them the same amount of time (say 6 months). However, one individual belongs to one religion, and the second belongs to another religion, and these two religions teach opposing interpretations on that particular scripture. So these people, having faith in the Bible and in the teachings of their respective churches, begin to do their research. However, they tend to start from the position of their own Church, and then go on to try to prove it true. In other words, "Believing is seeing!" Because they believe a certain way to begin with, their research efforts will tend to be from the standpoint of proving "true" the very interpretation of their own Church. So at the end of six months, you put these two individuals in a room and let them debate the issue. In the end, each one will think and believe they are right and the other person is wrong, so that neither one "proves" anything to anyone. And even if one person did convince the other person that his/her interpretation was right and the other person's was wrong, what would this prove? It would simply show that the one person was perhaps a little more skilled in debating over the other person. In the final analysis, it proves absolutely nothing of a certainty, except that there is a difference of opinion. We may well be simply fooling ourselves that we have the infallibly correct interpretation of scripture. The fact that there are so many different religions that believe in the same book, the Bible, and yet doctrinally disagree with each other, certainly demonstrates that we need more than just the Bible itself to arrive at the "whole Truth" and "nothing but the Truth" from the Bible. The sad part is, that there are quite a number of these "Christian" churches or organizations that say your very own Eternal Salvation rests upon you making the right decision about embracing the "Truth" from the Bible. Which "Truth"? God help the human race if eternal Salvation is dependent upon our intellectual capacity and prowess!
True Story: There was one woman years ago who became what is known as a "Professional Joiner". She had listened to the messages of truth from the Bible from representatives of several professed Christian organizations. They all told her she needed to make a choice, and her eternal salvation depended upon it. She could not make up her mind who was right and who was wrong. So she joined all these different Churches, and belonged to all of them at the same time. When asked why she did that, she replied that she did not want to make the wrong choice, so if she joined all of them, then surely one of them would be the Right Church, and so her Eternal Salvation would be assured. How funny! How sad!
And I was beginning to discover from experience that there were quite a number of teachings from the Watchtower Society that were debatable, even questionable. Of course, that made me guilty of "independent thought", which is not allowed. How dare you question the Governing Body?
Speaking of questioning doctrines. As an example, there is the "Soul Doctrine" which I talked about in a previous episode. One thing that did not make sense to me was" If, when we die, we go out of existence, our bodies go back to the "dust of the earth" and our "spirit" or "life force" goes back to the God who gave it. The publications taught that everything that was "US" when we were alive,our personality, our memories of all our experiences, etc. goes back to Jehovah God who has a perfect memory or recollection of all that we were. Then, in the resurrection, God makes a new body, and implants everything of his memory of us from when we were alive into that new body, and this then becomes "You" in resurrected form. But this really ISN'T "You"; it is only a duplicate, a replica, a "clone" of you. The real "You" went out of existence when you died. So, once you go out of existence thru death, what do you care whether you get resurrected or not? I mean really, why should you even care? And why even worry whether you are going to make it thru the Battle of Armageddon and into God's New World? When you die, you no longer exist! That's why I began to seriously doubt the Watchtower Society's teaching on the doctrine of the Soul. If there is an after-life, then there simply MUST be a continuity of existence. Annhilation just makes no sense to me!
These are the seed thoughts that were simmering on the back-burners of my brain, and were starting to percolate to the surface, motivating me to try and answer the question: Which religion has the true Authority from God to act and speak in His Name? Find the answer to that, and I will find the religion or channel thru which God is revealing the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, thru their inspired leaders.
In my next Episode, I will try to explain how I dealt with this whole issue, and where this led me to as a consequence.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Episode #7
I looked around the world of Christendom, asking the question "Who has dealt with the question of Authority in relation to understanding and interpreting scripture?"
Protestantism, in its many forms and sects, essentially held the view that the Bible itself was that authority. If you want to know the truth from God, you need only to look it up in the Bible, and it will reveal the truth from God. In other words, the Bible interprets itself. The W.T. essentially held this same view, except that they would line up all these doctrines, and then quote all these scriptures using their own interpretations of them, and then say "See, this is what the Bible says, and so all the other churches are wrong because they are not teaching these same truths from the Bible. What a ludicrous and circular argument that is! The fallacy of this "Bible only" theory is that there are just too many Protestant religions and sects teaching different interpretations on the same scriptures, even to the point of breaking away from their parent organizations, only to form yet another Church. The main Protestant groups maintain that "we may disagree on a lot of the smaller points, but when it comes to the primary tenets of Christianity, we are all in basic agreement with one another." Yet, when you examine this more closely, you discover there are some very real and significant differences that continue to keep them apart rather than unite them. This is reminiscent of the "Chaos of the Cults" one religous writer once wrote a book about. They cannot all be right together. So to me, the "Bible only" as a way to accurately interpret the scriptures therein is simply a notion that cannot and does not successfully hold up in fact and in truth.
The next thing I looked at was the Catholic Church. They claimed that theirs was the one true Church of Christ on the earth. Here's why:
Matthew 16:13-19 (KJV)
vs.13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
vs.14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some Elias: and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
vs.15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
vs.16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
vs.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven
vs.18 And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter ("Petros" or Rock- Greek- masculine), and on this rock ("Petra"- Greek feminine) I will build my church, and the gates of hell ("hades") shall not prevail against it.
vs.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The Catholic Church interprets Matthew 16:18 that Peter was the Rock upon which Jesus Christ would build his church. That was why Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter (Petros- the Rock) and it was on this Rock (Petra) that Jesus would build his church. Protestants have argued that this can't mean Peter, because Petros was a maculine form of Rock, whereas Petra was the feminine form of Rock. Catholics, however, say Jesus had to use Petros the masculine form for Peter since he was a man. On the other hand, Petra, the feminine form had the meaning of a rock that was immovable, firmly embedded, whereas Petros meant a rock that was hewn out of a mountain, implying unstable. So the change in gender does not discount the interpretation that Peter was the Rock upon which Jesus built his church.
Now from this doctrine came the teaching of Apostolic Succession. In other words, there would be 12 apostles who would stand at the head of the Church, and Peter had the first or leading position amongt them. He was their head, and thus he was referred to as the First Bishop or "Pope". Peter was the first Pope at the head of Christ's Church on earth. And someone must always be in that position, because if there wasn't this succession and continuity then "the gates of hell" would prevail against Jesus' Church, and that would make Christ's promise a lie. To illustrate this succession, they quote Acts 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles" (KJV) (Lots were like small stones or pebbles, which were typically used to ascertain God's will. It would be like "rolling the dice" and watching the outcome.) So when one apostle died, another person would take his place. This "Apostolic Succession" operated in the "Council of the Cardinals" down thru the centuries to this very day. In the end, Catholics argue that they are the oldest church that has been around since the time of Christ, and have continued on without interruption until today, and so the gates of hell have not prevailed against Christs Church.
There have been good Popes and there have been bad Popes. Do bad Popes prove that this is NOT the true church? Let's look at the following parable of Jesus at Luke 13:47-49 (KJV):
vs.47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.
vs.48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
vs.49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.
So, according to the parable, the kingdom of God on earth (as represented by his Church) is like a net of good and bad fishes. (This means bad members of the Church, even bad Popes). When the net is full, the fishermend go ashore, and separate the good fish from the bad fish, or keep the good ones and throw away the bad. At the time of the "end of the world" the angels will come and separate the good from the bad. It is God who will do the judging and the separating, Not Man.
Now when the head of the Church stands in his official capacity as the Chief Bishop or Pope (like Peter was the head in his day) and pronounces the will of God, or interprets the scriptures, he is given the divine protection and guidance of the the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he cannot err, or make mistakes. He is "infallibly correct" precisely because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hence arose the doctrine of Papal Infallibility. It does not mean the Pope has to be perfect, or can't make mistakes. So many people do not understand this Catholic teaching. The word "Catholic" by the way, simply means "Universal"- the "Universal Church of Jesus Christ" for all mankind. Why then, do so many people say the words "Catholic Church" like it leaves a bad taste in their mouths?
Protestants, of course, will not accept the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18. The Church of Christ does not rest its foundation on a mere man. They regard the Rock as "the faith which Peter confessed" or that the "Spiritual Rock" is actually Jesus Christ himself, and after his death and resurrection "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the Christ)."
When verse 19 speaks of giving unto Peter "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" the Catholic Church sees this as being given the "authority to act in the name of the Lord thru his Church.....And whatsoever they shall bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven. This authority gives them the right and the power to bind and loose. Protestants, of course, reject this. They see the keys of the kingdom as being doctrine and discipline, which are to be found in God's word, the Bible.
Feeling that I was on the right track, I began to study the teachings of the Catholic Church in earnest. I ordered some 75 booklets from the Knights of Columbus, which dealt with just about everything concerning their doctrines and teachings. In addition, there were about another 30 books on Catholic teachings that covered things in much more depth. Now there was no way I was going to do all this at home. I was still a practicing J.W. and my wife and her family were very active with meetings and field service, and it was expected that I would carry on as per normal. They did not yet know the "Crisis of Faith" I had now entered into. That was why I had the books shipped to the law offices in Brooks where I worked. As for studying, this was done during lunch hours, coffee breaks and "overtime periods". It was a race against time. And in the process I was discovering that the W.T. had written a lot of things about the Catholic teachings that were simply not true, which made my struggle to believe what they said even harder to believe or accept. They had lost all credibility with me.
After a few months, we received a letter in the mail from John C., the Mormon family we had studied with in Calgary, but who were now living in Penticton, British Columbia, over 800 miles away. His wife was in the hospital, about to have a baby. John C. gave us a progress report on what they were doing, and wondered what we were up to. At the same time, I was becoming pretty convinced the Catholic Church was true. I had also reached the point where I could NOT continue to live and function as an active J.W. I confessed to my wife and family, and they were pretty shocked. How could I believe in such a wicked and evil and corrupt church? Look at its history, its Inquisitions, its Crusades, all the wars they were involved with, etc., etc. "The kingom of God is like a net with both Good and Bad fishes." It was the Authority to act in the name of God that was the key, and the only way we could possibly solve the problem of Biblical interpretation. I brought all the Catholic publications home and continued to study them openly, much to their chagrine.
They put a lot of pressure on me to reconsider. They talked about the consequences that would follow if I became a Catholic- the disfellowshiping, the losing of my family and so on. I relented, and gave in and gave up. They told me that if I was sincere and not going to become Catholic, then I should burn all their books. I told them that burning all their books was no different than what the Catholic Church did from time to time- burn all the books to protect everyone from so-called heresies and heretics. This is the kind of thing the W.T. publications had complained about respecting the Catholic Church, and also that they tell their members not to read any literature from outside their church, a kind of censureship. So, it's not O.K. for them to do this, but it is O.K. for J.W.'s to do this. They told me that we are all free to read anything, but in my case, since it was shipwrecking my faith, I should burn them as a protection for my faith. I relented, and gave in, and gave up once more, because I did not want to lose my family. So on Saturday morning we went outside in the farmyard to the pit where previous fires had been lit, and I piled all the Catholic books and publications there and lit a match. I stood there watching them burn, ostensibly to make sure the fire didn't spread, but with tears secretly rolling down my cheeks. This was all so very wrong!
While my faith was pretty shaky, even destroyed, as a J.W., we continued to attend meetings and go out in field service as a family. But underneath it all, my heart was just not in it. In spite of all this, I was still thinking seriously about joining the Catholic Church. (I must admit, however, there were things about Catholic history that really bothered me.)
As I stated earlier, we received a letter from John C. I decided to write him back, which I did from work. I told him that I was thinking about joining the Catholic Church, and told him why as per above. He wrote back, saying that when he read my letter he nearly "fell out of his truck". Anyway, he offered to correspond in the mail where the challenge would be the question of Authority, but this time it would be the Catholic Church vs. the Mormon Church. I wrote back, agreeing with him, since I also thought this would become a very good testing grounds for my belief that the Catholic Church had the authority to act in the name of God.
Shortly thereafter I received some pamphlets in the mail (at the office) along with the Book of Mormon. There was also a pamphlet that talked about the strength of the Mormon position, which I am now going to share with you here, as copied from the internet:
The Strength of the Mormon Position
Author: the late Elder Orsen F. Whitney, of the Council of the 12 Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
The author related the following incident under the heading "A Catholic Utterance"
Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at this tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me "You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't got a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."
So there it was- the great question: Who has the Authority? With this in mind, I launched into a serious study of the Mormon Church. I felt that I had by this time, arrived at a fairly good understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church, so now I needed to get a good insight on the teachings of the Mormon Church. The pamphlets were ones that the Mormon missionaries used in their door-to-door work, where interested parties would get into discussions and studies with these missionaries.
We reviewed the Soul doctrine, and by this time I had no problem that we have a spirit that lives on after death. As a J.W., I had to agree with the Mormons that there were not 3 gods in one God- a triune Deity. It was one of the doctrines that concerned me with the Catholic Church. But remember, if the Catholic Church truly did have that Authority, then I would be assured that their teachings were divinely inspired and preserved. You do not find the true Church by studying doctrines. You find which Church has the true authority, and then you know what is the correct interpretation of scripture, because the true Church would be inspired of God to teach the Truth. Mormons taught that there was God the Father, God the Son who is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit who is a personage without a body.
The Mormons taught that there was no fiery hell where we would be tortured and tormented forever because of our sins. The Bible was speaking figuratively about hell and hell-fire, not literally. Eternal Hell was separation from God and living in "outer darkness". (J.W.'s taught that hell is the common grave of mankind.) On the other hand, this Mormon concept of hell was diametrically opposite to Catholic teachings, which tell of a literal fiery hell where you burn for all eternity. The Mormon doctrine states that we existed before we came to earth in this life (i.e. the Pre-existence of Souls) A number of scriptures in the Old and New Testaments allude to this. The Mormons practiced what they call the Word of Wisdom, which means no smoking, and no drinking tea, coffee or alcohlic beverages. There certainly is nothing wrong with living like that! Mormons tithed, and so did the Catholic Church (but J.W.'s relied on voluntary donations). Mormons taught a Plan of Salvation, where we were with our Father in Heaven before we came to earth. Then we came to earth to experience Mortality, and to get a physical body. This life was a learning experience, and but one more step towards our eternal progression. Mormons taught that "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become". We were the spiritual offspring of our Heavenly Father, and in eternity, we would have the opportunity to become like Him, gods in our own rites, who would be able to go off and create worlds of our own. It is the power of the keys of the Priesthood by which this is done. Thru the Priesthood, we could go on to inherit the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom in the hereafter. This Priesthood is the Authority to act in the name of God. There is the lesser Priesthood, after the Order of Aaron, and which is referred to as the Aaronic Priesthood. Then there is the higher Priesthood, after the Order of Melchizedek, which is referred to as the Melchizedek Priesthood. These Priesthoods can be passed on to other eligible males thru the "laying on of hands" where they are conferred upon any worthy candidate by someone who has that Priesthood authority already.
When Jesus asked Peter "But whom say ye that I am?" and Peter answered "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:15,16). Jesus said to him "Blessed art thou, Simone Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17) So Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ by REVELATION from God. "And I say also unto thee, "That thou art Peter (the Rock) and on this Rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16:18. What is that Rock? It is the Rock of Revelation whereby God directly reveals His truth thru a Prophet of God. This continuing revelation is what Jesus Christ would use to build his Church.
Both the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church teach that there would be an Apostasy from the Church, a falling away. 2 Thessalonian 2:3 (KJW) tells us:
"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
The Catholics say there was a falling away from the Church.The Mormons taught there was a Great Apostasy, a falling away from the Church AND of the Church. As a result, the Priesthood was removed from the earth, to be restored on the earth in the last days, or latter days. Then they teach that heavenly beings visited the young boy Joseph Smith, and restored and conferred the Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and his companion at the time, Oliver Cowdery. Also, an angel named Moroni visited Joseph Smith and showed him where some plates had been deposited that contained a record of certain peoples on this continent, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This book was supposed to be a companion to the Bible, and both would testify that Jesus was the Christ. Joseph Smith later translated these plates by the power of the Urim and Thummin that were deposited with the plates. In short, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the authority of the Priesthood was restored to the earth in these latter days. Each of these points were discussed at great length, and I became satisfied that they made sense, and that the Gospel had indeed, been restored to the earth. At the same time, however, I was told to read the Book of Mormon and to pray about it, and ask God if it is true. I did that, and something happened inside me that told me this was true! It was as though the Holy Spirit was witnessing to my soul that this was true, and I felt a kind of "burning of the bosom". I can remember a similar "feeling" years earlier, when I was having Bible studies with Grandma Fisher from the farm. I asked her why it was that after I left the Bible study to go back to school, why did I have this tremendous feeling of warmth and elation and love and peace inside. "Don't you know?" she asked. "No!" I said. "It is Jehovah,s Holy Spirit," she explained.
But now I had the same problem I did with the Catholic Church. What to do? I knew I had found the Church with true Authority from God, but I would have to be prepared to lose my family over it. Around this time, I took a week off work, and June and I went on holidays. Just before we left, my boss, the owner of his own Law Practice, had been served with papers from the Law Society, for failure to provide them with a Certificate from the Auditors that his Trust Ledger was up-to-date and in order. These represended funds that the lawyer was holding on behalf of all his clients, and must be fully accounted for and treated responsibly. Lawyers are not allowed to dip into these funds, and use them for personal reasons or personal gains. As the accountant, I had to post s $5,000 Trust Cheque issued to a furniture company to buy personal furniture that was moved into their new residence they had just built in town. But there were no funds on hand, against which this cheque could be charged. In other words, I had to open up a new Trust Ledger Sheet in the name of my boss, post the cheque, which then showed a "$5,000 balance" "in the red." When I approached my boss with the question "Where should I post this cheque." He replied that he had arranged a loan with the Credit Union, and that the funds had not yet been released, and so that deficit account will be covered when the Loan funds come in. In the meantime, the Auditors saw the negative balance, and refused to issue the Certificate, unless and until, he covered the overdraft in that trust account. That was what prompted the Law Society to serve him with papers, and he had something like 2 days to provide them with the necessary Certificate. So when I went on holidays, I was very restless over what my boss was going to do in my absence.
Upon returning from holidays, I immediately discovered that my boss had a copy of that Certificate on his desk, and that he had met the requirements of the Law Society. I was greatly relieved. A couple of days later, I was working on the Trust Ledger, and in the mail was a trust cheque from the bank that was returned for the reason "Estate funds not yet cleared". The amount was $4,850, and the cheque was in the name of an Estate of a deceased person being administered by a Trust company. But there was no ledger sheet that matched the name on the returned cheque. I approached my boss and asked him about this, and he said "The account should be in there somewhere." "O.K. I'll try to find it." I told him. I looked and looked. I noticed the date stamped on the back of the cheque by the bank, and it was the day after I left for holidays. Then I noticed he had written a cheque from his personal General Ledger which he had a cheque for $150 payable to his Trust Bank account, and the stamp on the back had the same date as the other Estate cheque. Then I looked at the Bank Deposit book for that date, and here it showed a $5,000 deposit with his own name notated there. It was obvious he had used the $4,850 estate cheque along with his $150 General account cheque to make the $5,000 deposit to his Trust account. I knew that if I posted this in the Ledger, that would mean I had knowledge of what was going on, and so would be implicated in the whole matter. Since my boss would not admit to any wrong-doing, I immediately went to the Auditors and showed them what I had seen. They groaned, because they were personal friends of my boss. Professionaly however, they had to report this to the Law Society. Within 24 hours the Law Society's Auditors walked in the front door and shut everything down, and seized control of the ledgers and the bank accounts, and proceeded to audit his entire Client files. This resulted in my boss getting disbarred, and me being laid off with no job, and no means of support.
I then visited my home town of Medicine Hat and looked for work. Luckily I was immediately hired as an accountant for the Alberta Linseed Oil Company. Essentially, they would purchase truckloads of flaxseed from farmers at daily street prices, then crush the seeds to extract the oil to make Linseeed Oil for paint. The seed pulp was mixed with supplemental vitamins and minerals, and then was moulded into feed blocks for cattle, and sold back to the farmers. So we moved back to the Hat, and settled in. I later heard that my boss back in Brooks had been sentenced to 18 months and was serving his time.
After about three months at my new job, we went back to Brooks to visit the wife's family on the farm. We stayed an extra day, so that when I returned to work, the boss had taken offence at my absence, and told me I was fired. I apologized, but it was too late.
Back to Brooks we went. I found an opening at the E.I.D. (Eastern Irrigation District) and they hired me to work on a Survey crew, and the District would provide us with an E.I.D. house to live in. That was exciting, because it felt good to be back, and I wanted to try working outdoors for a change, instead of being in an office all day every day.
At this time our first daughter was born. I was able to go to the operating room and watch the birth. It was an awesome experience, and it felt strange and good to be a daddy. I felt thankful for my beautiful family, and was happy where we lived, and with my new outdoor job.
Now, in our move to Medicine Hat, I wrote to John C. a letter explaining what had happened, and asked him to send me another Book of Mormon, as the first one was lost back in Brooks. He wrote back, saying that he would not send me a Book of Mormon, because if I had already recognized it as the truth, then I still had it, but if I didn't recognize it, I probably never would. A day later he sent me the book, telling me he changed his mind. I opened up the book and started to read. That same spirit that hit me back in Brooks came over me again, and it was very powerful. I knew I had to act! But then I got caught up in the move back to Brooks, and so again, I put things on hold, while sorting out our new circumstances, a new job, a new house and a new daughter. There was so much going on.
After things had settled down into a kind of routine, I began to revisit my battle with Faith, and what to do about it. I decided it was time to join the Mormon Church. I drove to the home of Noel C. who I had met a few years ago as a J.W. and he had challenged me to prove I had the authority to preach. Now I had to tell him I wanted to join the Mormon Church. He brought in another young Mormon who lived in the area, and also did Missionary work. They had the Missionary discussions with me, which were the same ones I had by mail with John C. They realized that I had already covered all this, and I had accepted everything, so they set things up for me to get baptized in their Church at the Town of Duchess. I told them I wanted to be baptized by John C., the Elder who had been with me from the very beginning. Noel C. offered to conduct the services, and on a Saturday I attended that Church and was baptized.
I told my wife I was going to do this, and they all tried to get me to change my mind. But there was no turning back, and I knww this was the Truth. John C. and his family drove down to Brooks to our home and visited with us. June was very friendly towards them. After all, she was the one who had first met them, and introduced me to them. But in the midst of her being a sociable host, I knew her heart was heavy as she agonized over what I was about to do- join the Mormon Church. After the baptism, John and his family drove home again.
Getting baptized meant that I was now considered an Apostate from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Disfellowshipment was inevitable. I was served with a double-registered letter from the presiding "Elders" of the Brooks Kingdom Hall, informing me of the meeting where I would be disfellowshipped, and they encouraged me to attend on my own behalf. One of the three on the Disfellowshiping Committee was my own father-in-law, which made this especially painful. I wrote a letter to this Committee, citing many scriptures I knew the Society regarded as to what it meant to be a Christian, and that even though I had joined the Mormon Church, I was still in harmony with, and accepted those scriptures. Therefore, by their own definitions, I was still a Christian. I gave this letter to my father-in-law, while he strongly kept insisting again and again and again that I attend that disfellowshipping hearing. I respectfully declined, saying that everything I had to say was already in that letter. A few days later I received another letter from them advising that I had been disfellowshipped. This then, set up a real backlash from the family. They came to town to pick up my wife and our baby in her arms, to take her to the farm to stay there for a period of time. The mother scolded me saying, "This is our daughter, and we gave her to you, and now look what you've done!" As they all left, one of the brothers who was the last one out the door, turned to me and said "I feel sorry for you Rodney!" That was the last we spoke to each other for an awfully long time.
So there I was, alone in our living room, thinking about everything that had happened, and I was in agony, and felt heart-sick. Yet I knew I had joined the True Church. Surely God will guide me thru all this mess. After all, "I did the right thing, didn't I?" And as I sat there, I began to hear funny noises coming from the kitchen. I got up and went into the kitchen to see what was causing the noise. Nothing! I went back and sat down in the living room. Suddenly, there was that strange noise again. Again I went and checked the kitchen. Nothing! Funny ideas went thru my head. You know how the J.W.'s keep talking about Satan the Devil and his demons. Was this noise his doing? Had I been deceived? Am I in real danger here? Then, that noise again. A chill went up my spine, and I approached the kitchen cautiously. I stopped just in the landing, while hiding my body around the corner, still in the living room, but peeked my head out to peer into the kitchen. Nothing! I waited and watched, and watched and waited. I didn't move, and I didn't make a sound. Suddenly, I saw a little mouse run across the floor. After a sigh of relief, and a nervous chuckle ovre how silly I had behaved with these wild imaginings, I began to scold myself for being so stupid and superstitious about it all. I caught the mouse, and released him outside. Then I resolved not to fall for this kind of thing ever again. And I never looked back.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In my next Episode #8, I want to share with you what it was like to live in a religiously divided home, and alss what was going on in my life as a Mormon. I promise you, it will be a real humdinger, with many twists and turns and ups and downs.
Rod P.

JustTickledPink
JustTickledPink 11 years ago

I've only made it through half of the posts... it is interesting, I'll check back for more later. I have chores to do!!!

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



I have decided to discontinue my story on this thread. Have discovered that threads die as new ones come on stream, and this one has been left in the dust.
Somewhere along the line I will continue with a more recent thread.


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X-JW , X-Mormon & More OR: Around the World's Religions in 60 Years!
by Rod P 11 years ago 31 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw experiences
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Kenneson
Kenneson 11 years ago

It seems to me that Mormons teach a falling away of the Church, which is different than a falling away from the Church (apostasy of vs. apostasy from) . If the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, there can be no falling away of the whole Church. Matt. 16:18 Jesus promises to be with the Church until the end of time. Matt. 28:19-20 The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to prevent such a thing. See John 15:26 and 16:13-14. Some people will fall away from, but not all people ever all fell away. No apostasizing of the whole Church means there is no need for a restoration of what always has been. Jesus' mission of establishing his followers was not a failure necessitating a mere man to later restore it. Why could Joseph Smith (substitute Charles Taze Russell) do what Mormons (JW's) claim Jesus could not do? How could men undo everything Jesus had done and then one man, Joseph Smith (or Russell) , redo everything that Jesus couldn't? The Church never completely apostasized nor will it ever. See Eph. 1:22-23 If the Church completely vanished at any period of time than Jesus was a failure. God should have sent Joseph Smith (Russell) instead.

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Kenneson;
Thanks for your comments and observations.
I do not disagree with your reasoning that there was an apostasy "from the Church" but not an apostasy "of the Church". That is a very important distinction. However, this is exactly the argument of the Catholic Church, and why they teach Apostolic Succession. If the whole Church apostasized, then the Gates of Hell would have prevailed against it, which would make Jesus' words a false prophesy.
But when it comes to the Mormon Church, they do, in fact, teach that there was a falling away of the Church and from the Church, and that is why they say there had to be a restoration in the latter days. Hence Joseph Smith, the instrument thru which the Restoration came.
Mormonism teaches that the Priesthood Authority was removed from the earth because of the Great Apostasy, ostensibly to protect it from corruption by man. It was effectively safeguarded until the latter days, when it was restored. The idea that the Priesthood Authority and the Fulness of the Gospel was restored is proof to the Mormon mind that the Gates of Hell did not prevail against Christ's Church. Unbroken continuity is not necessarily a mandatory requirement. I do not agree with this Mormon viewpoint. Years ago, the continuity question was what almost convinced me to join the Catholic Church. It was all the corruption and bloodshed in Catholic history that turned me against the notion that they had to be the ones Christ had appointed. It was Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine, who was an unbaptized sun worshipper until practically his deathbed that he became a baptized Christian. The whole story about Christianity becoming the state religion convinced me that this Catholic Church was begun by a political authority of man, rather than a Divine Authority by God.
I hope that clarifies my remarks for you.
Rod P.

Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Kenneson - just some observations about LDS and the apostasy:
The apostatsy or falling away has relation to the Priesthood line. The Priesthood is in LDS parlance the authority to act in Jesus' name and perform all the ordinances of salvation (baptism, sacrament etc..) The authority is given in a specific manner and must be given by someone who already possesses it:
(New Testament | Hebrews 5:1 - 4)
FOR every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron
(Old Testament | Exodus 29:4 - 7)
4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
5 And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:
6 And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre.
7 Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and anoint him.
(Old Testament | Exodus 30:30)
30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)
7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
So people cannot just assume authority...see below for one example
(New Testament | Acts 19:13 - 16)
13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
so either the Catholic church still has the authority or it lost it when Rome took it over.

Kenneson
Kenneson 11 years ago



Rod P.,
Your comment "Unbroken continuity is not necessarily a mandatory requirement. I do not agree with this Mormon viewpoint."
So, what is your take on that?
Qcmbr,
We know elsewhere that there were exorcists besides Jesus. "Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be-elzebub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU." See Matt. 12:26
We also know of exorcists who invoked Jesus' name outside his followers' circle. See Mark 9:38-40 You will have to admit, however, that Jesus' followers' circle did not assume authority. They had it. See Luke 9:1-2 What Mormons say is that not only was the authority removed ("ostensibly to protect it from the corruption of men," as Rod put it), but so was the circle (the Church). How can that be? Matt. 28:18-20 Jesus Christ is the foundation cornerstone of the Church. See Eph. 2:19-22 To lose the Body of Christ would mean loss of its Head. See Eph. 3:11-16 Moreover, if it was possible for the authority as well as the Body (Church) to be removed once, what assurance do you have that it cannot happen again?
Matt. 7:21-23 states: "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kindgom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name. ' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." Admiting this does not mean that the Church lost her gifts, including prophecy, powerful works, etc. See 1 Cor. 12:4-11, 27-31. Of course, we know that all these gifts were necessary to build up the church in love. 1 Cor. 13 and 14:1
The point of Acts 19 as I see it is an attempt to distance the gospel from magic. The fact of the matter is that the name of Jesus will not work automatically for just any wielder. But it sure worked for Paul. See verses 11-12. Apparently some have the authority and others don't. But there never was a time when no one had the authority.

Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

RE those exorcists I was just using them as an example that as you further pointed out its not enough to just speak the lingo - ie you must actually be called by God and then anointed by someone who holds the Priesthood.
I'm not suggesting that there haven't been christians in an unbroken chain nor does the LDS church claim that the Priesthood authority was removed in a physical act by God (no popes struck down by lightning), rather that when someone who doesn't have the right to the priesthood (such as a Roman political leader who lives a non christian life) claims the priesthood and then having done atrocious things while holding this priesthood supposes to be able to pass it on..the priesthood ceases.
I always found it interesting the relationship between the church and the apostle John while he was on Patmos - its almost as if he has no control / direction over the church and yet he is an apostle...
I don't want to dig on the popes but some of them (not all of course) where not what I would consider godly men (of course nobody is asking me to judge) and yet they were the head of the church - representing Jesus - I'm fairly certain that they did not have the priesthood. This means IMHO that the line of authority was broken - once broken I can't see any way to restore it RE the previous scriptures I listed.

Narkissos
Narkissos 11 years ago

This is somehow reminiscent of Montanism and especially Donatism (Google tips here).

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Hey Guys,
I just spent the last two hours on this thread writing comments to all three of you. Then I went back to Page 1 of this thread to refer to something, came back to Page 2, and everything I had typed just vanished. Very frustrating. Anybody know how to find it or get it back?
Rod P.

bebu
bebu 11 years ago



Holy smokes, Rod, what a story. Some very interesting details, and some great observations.
...Seems like a lot of trouble came out of studying doctrines on the sly!
bebu

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Bebu,
You are right. A lot of trouble did result from me studying on the sly. But a lot of trouble would have resulted in any event.
I openly knocked on doors with fellow JW's and we had many discussions with different householders. In the process, questions and seeds of doubt were already planted in my mind.
I had the choice to study in the open, in front of my wife and her parents, but that would only have produced heated argument and debate at a time when I needed to resolve the doubts I already had. I did not need the hassle in the middle of spiritual crisis, for my faith was then very fragile. I needed to go thru this alone and on the side, so I could at least think without all that conflict.
I really believe that one way or the other, I would have joined the Mormon Church of the Catholic Church because they had the better case for Authority than the JW's ever did.
Rod P.

bebu
bebu 11 years ago



Hey Rod,  Sorry if that one comment sounded critical! We all have private thoughts, don't we? And we don't have to announce all that we are thinking or wishing to investigate. Sometimes, many times, private investigation is the most prudent course.
The challenge really comes when you end up on another page by yourself... and discover that your relationship was only built on sharing the other page (as you wrote yourself, about "conditional" love).
Anyway, I enjoyed your story!! (Plus, it was so long, it kept me out of a lot of mischief!! ) Looking forward to future installments.
bebu

Kenneson
Kenneson 11 years ago



Qcmbr,
Look no further than Peter. In one instance Jesus chooses him to be the leader of the Church (Matt. 16:18) and shortly thereafter calls him Satan (Matt. 16:23). Moreover, his abandonment and denial of Christ (Matt. 26:69-75) did not nullify Jesus' choice (John 21:15--17), plus 1 and 2 Peters is attributed to him, although they could have been written by a follower or followers. As a matter of fact, all the apostles were cowards and ran away. Mark 14:27-31 In spite of the fact that Rev. 21:8 is not very fond of cowards, we know that the Apostles continued in God's good graces. Also, the choice of the traitor Judas as an apostle by Jesus himself did not bring an end to the office of apostles, did it? See Eph. 3:5, 4:11 and 1 Cor. 12:28 In the Old Testament King David committed adultery and murder, yet he remained King, and many of the Psalms are attributed to him (as Peter above). Moses was a murderer, yet was selected by God to lead His people out of Egypt. Paul persecuted the Church, yet was chosen by God to be an apostle. Is not God's grace more powerful than man's sin? What prevents God from using sinful men to accomplish his purpose? Isn't that the thought conveyed in 2 Cor. 12:9 and Eph. 3:20?
Consider also an example in the secular world. The president or king or prime minister may be a sinner but does his office not remain intact?.
Once the authority is broken you say that you see no way to restore it. But, yes, you do, if you are a Mormon. You think Joseph Smith did and thus the priesthood authority was handed on to his successors. Now let me ask you another question. Is it possible for the authority to be broken in the Mormon Church? For instance, there are claims made that Brigham Young himself and other high church officials, who revived the "bood atonement" doctrine of purifying sinners and enemies by death, were actually the ones who orchestrated the Mountain Meadows massacre in 1857 in southern Utah of 140 people, including Mormon apostates. And that it was Mormons themselves who committed the dastardly deed and not Paiute Indians as claimed by Brigham Young and the Mormon Church in an effort to cover it up when investigated by the U.S. government. If that is the case how was the priesthood preserved through such men who committed such atrocities? How is this different from what you accuse certain popes?

Rod P
Rod P 11 years ago



Kenneson;
My take on this is that:
1) If the basis for the Authority of the Catholic Church is Political and not Spiritual (i.e. from God), then forgt about Peter and Apostolic Succession.
2) If the basis for the Authority of the Mormon Church is all a myth because the Joseph Smith story and the Book of Mormon is all a myth, then forget about Mormonism and the Priesthood, no matter how many scriptures they quote from the Old and New Testaments.
3) If the basis for Authority is the Bible as the Word of God (like so many Protestants believe), then that is a problem for me, as the dilemma of the Bible is the ability of so many scholars from so many different Churches and Denominations all interpret it diferently. If we cannot know with certainty what is the correct interpretation of Scripture in all its fulness, then we cannot understand God's Will from the Bible.
So what are we left with? IMHO, we are left with the fact that only God knows who is a True Christian or not. Therefore, leave all Religious Institution out of the equation. And also leave the incomprehensible Bible out of the equation. We must not build a relationship based on the "God of the Book". We must not build our relationship based on the "God of a Church or Organization" which is based on External Connections. The answer does not lie in external form or symbolism or ritual. These are simply tools or mechanisms or "compasses" to lead us to turn inward to find God and Spirituality. "The Kingdom of God is within you." (see also the Gospel of Thomas) Authority is a kind of "permission" from God to do things in His Name. What better Authority than to go within, connect with, and be touched by God, and then from this "spiritual genuineness" go forth in the world. Then by your fruits they shall know the true disciples, and even true miracles can become manifest.
"Be still, and know that I AM God."
Having said all this, if Jesus' words to Peter are true: "...And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (my Church)." I do not see the Church as being an Organization, but rather the "body of believers", who have this genuine, authoritative, spiritual connection with God. God knows who they are, and they have existed since the time of Christ in unbroken succession since then until now. I also will go so far as to say that there are "True Christians" even inside all kinds of religious organizations professing Christianity, even the JW's and Mormons. I believe in my heart of hearts that the God of the Universe gives us all the freedom and free agency to love God each in their own way, and within the great diversity of belief systems, for the simple reason that the outer form of dogma and ritual and political structure has little or nothing to do with what is in the heart of the true believer. God knows His Own, no matter where, or what station he or she occupies. This is the same as saying God will love and bless and authorize us regardless of race, colour, creed or religion. My God is big enough to handle and contain all this in our humanity! Amen.
Narkissos;
Nice to hear from you. You are a man of few words. I wish I had your talent.
Montanism taught a universal priesthood of believers, but also went overboard when they began to impose their will on the less "spiritual" Christians. They also went overboard in their prophesying (i.e. as a doomsday cult), and they predicted that they were living in the last days. The Lord was going to come in a few years, and begin the 1000 year reign in Pepuza. They also believed in "New Prophesy" and lived by the "Rule of Faith". They kinda died out when their prophesies did not come to pass. The Catholic Church declared them to be "heretics".
The Donatists preached a "Moral Authority". They insisted the moral worthiness of a minister affected the efficacy of the sacraments he administered. They refused to accept the spiritual authority and sacraments of the bishops and priests who had fallen away from the Church. They also taught that a small regional church had the right to determine the standards of holiness, regardless of the consensus of the rest of the Church.
I see the "Moral Authority" of the Donatists as being deficient in that it appears to me to be a case of those claiming to be in authority judging those who they deemed to be apostate or unholy. It is an authority that starts from the bottom "Man", from which judgement is made and announced, which then proceeds upwards to God. Who are they to judge? Only God can be the Judge.
The Montanists too, it appears to me, set themselves up as judge and jury. Those who saw themselves as more holy judged those who they saw as "less spiritual". Their fruits became manifest when the false prophecies were exposed for all to see, well-meaning though it might have been. Personally, I think God, knowing their hearts, may forgive them for that, because they too face the problem of "Interpretation", and so it is not too difficult to be wrong. Instead of worrying about when the end of the world was going to come, they should have been concentrating on their relationship with God. That is what really mattered.
Qcmbr,
Glad you visited this thread. You and I could have some interesting discussions on Mormonism.
I have some real difficulty accepting the Old Testament at face value, especially when I discover that the account of creation in Genesis was actually borrowed from earlier cuneiform Chaldean or Babylonian texts. I have similar problems with the story of Noah and the Flood, and also the accounts about Abraham and Job, to mention a few. Then there is the account about Moses in Egypt. Remember how he was raised in the Pharoah's household. Obviously he would have been taught the Egyptian belief system growing up. Now we have the first five books of the Bible- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy which are attributed to Moses, for which scholastic research has had to question this premise. The point I am making is, all of the O.T. scriptures you quote proving how "Authority and the Priesthood" work must stand subordinate to the overriding question of how much you can accept of the O.T. authenticity, given its various backgrounds and origins respecting the different books over hundreds of years. There are also some huge questions of the same nature when it comes to the New Testament. The Egyptian connection is a real problem for the Bible in terms of its claim to Divine Inspiration.
Again, I see the whole problem in this light: Does the God of the Universe really care about all these documents, words and assertions made by man in the name of God over the centuries? Don't you find it significant that Jesus Christ appears not to have written a single word of Scripture? To me that says one thing: Finding God and Spirituality does not depend on the written word. The written word is only supposed to lead you to go inside yourself to find God. Nothing else. When it says that "there is no other name under heaven whereby man can be saved" I believe it means that we must follow the spiritual pathway and example that Jesus set for us to follow. He is the "Wayshower".
I will have much more to say on these subjects along the way.
Regards,
Rod P.


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hi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
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