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Faith vs. Reason- Watchtower "apostate" quote+refutation by atheist author
by nvrgnbk 8 years ago 38 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

Please read. It mentions the Watchtower and has some interesting things to say about it.
Thoughts in Captivity Faith versus reason in religion

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
--Proverbs 3:5 (KJV)
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..."
--2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)
Many critics of organized religion have compared it to brainwashing or mind control. Personally, I would not describe it in these terms. These are strong words with overtly pejorative connotations, and their use is likely to be perceived by believers as an ad hominem attack, rather than contributing to a civil and productive dialogue between atheists and theists. Nevertheless, the fact remains that their application is not without merit. Even the staunchest defender of theism cannot deny that, to an extent, religions teach their followers to prize faith over facts, to rely on the word of authorities rather than their own judgment, and to disregard arguments that run counter to their beliefs.
The above quotes from the Bible provide examples of this. The first specifically tells believers not to rely on their own understanding, while the second instructs them to bring their thoughts "into captivity". What can this possibly mean other than that a Christian's every thought must begin with the preconception that their religious beliefs are true?
By comparison, atheists, in general, do not believe that a person's thoughts should be brought into "captivity" to any particular belief system at all. Instead, atheists generally hold that one's thoughts should be set free to explore wherever they please, to examine one's beliefs from every angle, and even to consider the possibility that they are not true - because if they are true, they will inevitably stand up to reality and so there is no harm in asking the question. On the other hand, if they are not true, we should want to know that so we can replace them with something better.
Quotes such as these from the Bible and other holy books provide one example of the unending battle between faith and reason at the heart of every system of religious belief. But there are many more such conflicts, and many more methods, some of which are especially insidious, by which theistic systems teach their followers to keep their thoughts in captivity and suppress reasoning and arguments that threaten their beliefs. This essay will examine some of them.
The Memetic Virus

"Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously deny it. Accepting that a virus might be difficult to detect in your own mind, what tell-tale signs might you look out for? I shall answer by imaging [sic] how a medical textbook might describe the typical symptoms of a sufferer (arbitrarily assumed to be male).
1. The patient typically finds himself impelled by some deep, inner conviction that something is true, or right, or virtuous: a conviction that doesn't seem to owe anything to evidence or reason, but which, nevertheless, he feels as totally compelling and convincing. We doctors refer to such a belief as 'faith.'
2. Patients typically make a positive virtue of faith's being strong and unshakable, in spite of not being based upon evidence. Indeed, they may feel that the less evidence there is, the more virtuous the belief...."
--Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"
The concept of the meme was coined by biologist Richard Dawkins in his 1976 book The Selfish Gene. A meme (rhymes with "dream") is the basic unit of culture, just as the gene is the basic unit of biology. Any idea or concept that is passed from person to person can be a meme, and the sum total of the memes in a given society forms what is usually referred to as culture. There are all sorts of memes: a meme can be as trivial a concept as an advertising slogan, a slang expression, a clothing style or a catchy musical refrain; or it can be as powerful and world-shaping an idea as democracy, freedom of speech, science, or God. The concept of the meme is itself a meme.
Memes share many traits with their biological counterparts. Like genes, they replicate themselves (by spreading from person to person). Like genes, they mutate, with new variants occasionally appearing. Like genes, they experience frequency changes over time, with some variants persisting and spreading rapidly while others dwindle and go extinct. And what this means is that, like genes, memes evolve. The competition among them mimics the Darwinian competition among genes occurring in the real world: some which are very effective at winning people over propagate and become dominant in society. Others which are less successful at spreading to new minds die out.
However, in one very significant respect memes differ from genes. Namely, genes cannot spread in isolation; they must combine into complexes, usually called organisms, that possess all the numerous necessary adaptations for survival and reproduction. Memes, on the other hand, can reproduce all by themselves, spreading from mind to mind through the medium of human culture. There is only one type of organism in nature for which there exists an apt comparison: a virus.
Viruses are obligate parasites, consisting of little more than a string of genetic material surrounded by a protein shell. Although they cannot reproduce on their own, they can commandeer the reproductive machinery of a cell, causing it to create more copies of the virus. Memes can act similarly, spreading to new minds and incorporating themselves into a person's set of beliefs or memories; in many cases, individuals that have come into contact with a new meme feel the desire to transmit it to others. However, unlike real viruses which are almost always pathogenic, memes can be benign or positively beneficial - although they too can be malignant and dangerous. People have been inspired both to kill and to die by memes. Of course, memes do not have an existence apart from their hosts as viruses do. They are only an analogy, albeit a very useful and apt one, to demonstrate how ideas arise, evolve, and spread from person to person.
With this established, let us try a thought experiment. Imagine that you wanted to create a complex of memes - a memetic virus - whose purpose was to keep people under your control and cause them to obey a set of rules of your choosing; one that would spread from person to person and that would be nearly impossible to eradicate once it had taken root in a mind. Why anyone would want to create such a thing is not important for the purposes of this exercise, but there are many imaginable reasons. A member of the elite seeking personal gain might want to foster a belief system that would convince people to willingly hand over their wealth or possessions; an aspiring leader might want to acquire the obedience of the populace or unite a group of people against an outside threat. The question is, how could one craft a system of beliefs that would inspire such a response?
The first hurdle that must be overcome is to convince people to accept your new ideology. The simplest and the best way is to appeal to self-interest, as successful leaders throughout history have done: people will eagerly follow you if they genuinely believe that doing so will bring benefits to them. But what type of reward to promise? Different people are motivated by different things. The best way to avoid this difficulty, since all the things that people strive after are ultimately just efforts to make themselves happy, is to simply promise your adherents a life of unsurpassable happiness and bliss. While one could try to describe what form this would take, it might be better not to be overly specific, but instead to tell your followers that all their greatest desires will be realized. This allows them to personalize the reward in their own minds to whatever they themselves want most.
This now presents a new difficulty: if you promise something you cannot deliver, people will likely abandon you. But there is a way around that problem as well. Rather than promise your followers they will be rewarded immediately for their allegiance, move the reward to somewhere where its existence can never be disproven. One particularly clever way to do this is to perpetually keep the payoff in the distant but not too distant future, always just over the horizon, always soon but not yet. This will inspire people to keep chasing it, to always be working just a little harder, doing a little more in anticipation of that day. Another solution, not mutually exclusive with the other, is to place the reward after death, in another life beyond this one. Not even the most skeptical examination can conclusively disprove it then. Again, this will encourage your followers to work for you their entire lives without ever becoming discouraged. It might also be helpful to counterbalance this promised great reward with an equally great punishment for those who will not believe, and safeguard this from disproof using the same methods. This will provide strong incentive for believers not to stray, by appealing to their sense of self-preservation as well as their desire for happiness.
The second major issue is transmission. You may be able to sway a few people into believing you, but spending all your time evangelizing would be tedious and slow. For maximum efficiency and rate of spread, the type of growth to strive after is exponential, in which the more followers you have, the more converts you make. The obvious solution is to add to this suite of beliefs a new one that encourages the converted to work to convert others as well. Since we already have the reward proposition, one could justify this by modifying it slightly to inform your followers that it will increase their own reward further to win converts. However, a more subtle and potentially even more effective way is to tell your followers that they should want to convert other people for those people's own good, so that they can share in this wonderful reward. This will give your followers a strong reason to want to evangelize: they will believe that it is the moral thing to do. The existence of a punishment for nonbelievers, as above, will aid in this. Transmission of these beliefs can also be made more effective by encouraging adult converts to teach them to children, who by their nature are more trusting and less skeptical. Throughout their lives, people rarely throw off the beliefs that they were taught while young.
The third important issue is how to retain believers. Since the purpose of this assembly of memes is to keep people under control, encouraging them to think for themselves and question their beliefs is probably a bad idea. Those activities have been feared by those who would control others throughout history, and with good reason: skeptics and freethinkers are by nature difficult to herd. Instead, you want your followers to be passive, accustomed to obedience and unaccustomed to doubting your authority. The most effective way to achieve this is to add to the memetic virus a suite of beliefs that will convince those harboring the virus not to question it. These beliefs would teach your followers not to expose themselves to information or arguments that could damage their beliefs and, where possible, to cut off other believers' access to such information. Most important, teach them that they must always think of their belief as true, no matter what the facts say, and their personal faith takes priority over the evidence of the external world. If possible, teach that absolute trust and obedience are virtues, while doubt, for any reason whatsoever, is a sin, and puts them in jeopardy of losing their promised reward, or worse, suffering the corresponding punishment.
Of course, every reader will have realized the point of this thought experiment by now. The beliefs incorporated into this hypothetical memetic virus, designed to capture and command people's obedience, are precisely those beliefs taught by most of this planet's religions. Religion is a system of memetic thought control. (Richard Dawkins, inventor of the concept of the meme, puts forward the same argument in his above-cited essay Viruses of the Mind.)
Admittedly, these beliefs and the reasons why they are effective at controlling people's minds were not derived from first principles without reference to the external world. This example was constructed with an eye on the teachings of conventional religion. Nevertheless, the fact remains that religions are very effective at directing people's thoughts and actions. The extended example presented above is an attempt to explain why this is so, and what reasoning underlies the tenets of successful religions and makes them effective.
However, it is important to note that, although I have presented this particular example as if a single individual or small group of individuals came together to concoct it deliberately for the purpose of controlling people, I do not believe that most religions were started in this conscious, calculating way. (There may be a few exceptions.) Rather, the organization of religions and the fact that many of them incorporate concepts effective at controlling people is a consequence of memetic evolution. Just as genes do in nature, memes engage in a Darwinian struggle for limited resources - in this case, the number of available human minds. This is not to say that memes "want" to multiply in any conscious sense, any more than viruses do, but memes that are more effective at gaining people's allegiance and belief will inevitably flourish at the expense of those that are not as effective. This principle applies to religion just as it does to other types of memes.
As alluded to above, religions employ a variety of tactics, not just to spread themselves to new minds, but to maintain their hold on the minds they are already in and prevent themselves from being dislodged. The remainder of this essay will explore some of these tactics in detail.
One particularly effective and insidious method by which some religions accomplish this is by teaching their adherents that it is a sin to doubt God, thus linking the concept of virtue to the ideal of unquestioning faith. If some event leads believers to wonder whether their beliefs might not be true, they feel guilt over having done so, no matter how reasonable their doubts are. This is a very effective method of shutting down skepticism and preventing doubt from ever taking hold, sealing off religious beliefs from questioning or critical examination in the believer's mind.
Another method by which religious memes maintain their hold on the believer's mind is by teaching them to use those memes as the filter through which they view and interpret everything that happens to them. In religions which use this tactic, believers are no longer free to form their own opinions on any topic. Instead of thinking, "What do I think of this?", they become accustomed to thinking, "What does God think of this?" - where "God" is assumed to be the sum total of sacred books, teaching and tradition which the believer has absorbed. Not only does this have the desirable (to a religious meme) side effect of accustoming the believer to yielding their own judgment to that of an external authority, if a believer attempts to break away, they will be unable to do so because they will have no cognitive framework that can be used to evaluate issues from a perspective other than that of their previous belief system. Thus, even when doubts do occasionally spring up, they are phrased in a way that still presupposes the theist's beliefs being true - i.e., "Why would God allow this to happen?", not "Is it possible that this happened because God does not exist?" The former phrasing presupposes that God does exist and that he allowed a particular unfortunate event to happen for a good reason that is simply unknown to the believer. The latter phrasing carries no such built-in assumptions.
However, in addition to these fairly subtle techniques, the memetic epidemic that is religion employs some thought-control tactics that are much more overt and heavy-handed. One of these, already mentioned in passing above, will be discussed in more detail in the following section.
Dangerous Knowledge

"My appeal is as follows," Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said this week during a Vatican Radio broadcast. "Don't read and don't buy 'The Da Vinci Code.'"
--Tracy Wilkinson, "20 Million Copies Later, Vatican Says Don't Read 'Da Vinci Code'"; The Los Angeles Times, p.A1, 18 March 2005.
One of religion's most intrusive, and for a long time one of its most widespread, thought-control techniques is the concept of "dangerous knowledge" - the belief that there are some facts about the world that are inherently harmful to know about and that believers should not be aware of. Sometimes this ignorance is merely encouraged, by teaching believers whether implicitly or explicitly to avoid material deemed injurious to faith; sometimes it is enforced by church authorities who issue proclamations ordering the banning, censoring, or burning of books that convey forbidden ideas. Sometimes the authors of works judged particularly offensive are burned along with their books.
Probably the most infamous example of this meme is the Roman Catholic church's official Index Librorum Prohibitorum - the Index of Forbidden Books. Created in 1559 by the Roman Inquisition under Pope Paul IV, the Index was a catalogue of books which Catholic believers were not allowed to read or possess. At its peak, the Index contained thousands of titles, including works by many famous poets, philosophers, authors and scientists such as David Hume, John Milton, John Stuart Mill, Rene Descartes, Daniel Defoe, Alexandre Dumas, Voltaire, Copernicus, Galileo, and others. In 1564, the Index was revised to include a blanket ban on the works of religious leaders of sects other than Catholicism and to allow for bishops and inquisitors to inspect printers' and booksellers' shops to ensure they were not selling any forbidden works. Even this was not enough to satisfy some, and in 1908 Pope Pius X declared that the scope of the Index would be further expanded. From that point on, every book was declared forbidden by default, and the only books which Catholics were allowed to read were those that had been certified by a bishop as "nihil obstat" (Latin for "nothing obstructs"). The bishop who authorized a book would add the phrase "imprimatur" (Latin for "let it be printed") and his own name to signify that he was the one vouching for its conformity with orthodox dogma. Catholics who violated church law by reading or possessing forbidden books were punished by excommunication.
Updates to the Index officially ceased in 1966, and the associated penalties were abolished. Today, Catholics no longer face excommunication for reading books on it. However, strictly speaking they are still required to avoid books that might be "dangerous" to their faith. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the current Pope Benedict XVI, stated as recently as 1985 that the Index "retains its moral force". And the Catholic church is far from apologetic about the chains it once placed on free speech. Even today, the Catholic New Advent encyclopedia holds that it is the duty of "every lawful authority" to "protect its subjects from the ravages of a pernicious press... [by] exercising censorship of books" (from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03519d.htm), states that church censorship of ages past was "proper", "perfectly reasonable" and showed "wise moderation and true justice", and blames today's social ills on "so-called freedom of the press". And as recently as February 2002, the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the modern-day Inquisition) proposed creating a panel of censors to oversee the Catholic magazine America, in response to its persistently publishing editorials on controversial church topics such as condom use and religious pluralism, according to a May 6, 2005 article from the National Catholic Reporter. An article in the same magazine estimated that over 100 Catholic theologians have been silenced or reprimanded in the past few decades for promoting views unacceptable to the church orthodoxy.
Although the Index is the most glaring example, attempts by religious leaders to suppress books with which they disagree are by no means limited to Catholicism in particular, nor Christianity in general. To name another well-known example, author Salman Rushdie's book The Satanic Verses has been banned in most Islamic nations; some bookstores have been bombed for selling it, and Rushdie himself still lives under the threat of a death sentence pronounced on him by Muslim fundamentalists furious at his perceived irreverence toward Islam. Other authors, such as Nawal El Saadawi, have likewise had their books banned from intolerant Muslim societies. And although such drastic infringements on free speech are thankfully a memory in the United States, right-wing Christians here continue their efforts to restrict others' access to books they dislike by agitating for their removal from public school libraries. Even today, Christians still burn books. Although this latter practice is now largely symbolic rather than a genuinely effective gesture, that makes its evil message all the more apparent - that there are books and ideas which should be destroyed or censored rather than allowing others to read them for themselves.

"In the reign of Henry VIII -- that pious and moral founder of the apostolic Episcopal Church -- there was passed by the parliament of England an act entitled "An act for abolishing of diversity of opinion." And in this act was set forth what a good Christian was obliged to believe:
First, That in the sacrament was the real body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Second, That the body and blood of Jesus Christ was in the bread, and the blood and body of Jesus Christ was in the wine.
Third, That priests should not marry.
Fourth, That vows of chastity were of perpetual obligation.
Fifth, That private masses ought to be continued; and,
Sixth, That auricular confession to a priest must be maintained.
This creed was made by law, in order that all men might know just what to believe by simply reading the statute. The church hated to see the people wearing out their brains in thinking upon these subjects. It was thought far better that a creed should be made by parliament, so that whatever might be lacking in evidence might be made up in force. The punishment for denying the first article was death by fire. For the denial of any other article, imprisonment, and for the second offence -- death."
--Robert Green Ingersoll, "Heretics and Heresies"
Another egregious example of religious thought control is the concept of blasphemy laws. The mere existence of such a concept as blasphemy is revealing when it comes to the religious view of dissent: what this idea says in essence is that arguments against religion, regardless of their factual merit, should be silenced because some people do not want to hear them. However, more telling still is the fact that often in history these prejudices have been actually enacted into law, evidently by nations who were evidently either so fearful or possessed of a faith so fragile that it could not stand up to hearing a contrary opinion. In a celebrated case from 1886, the great agnostic orator Robert Green Ingersoll defended an American freethinker, Charles B. Reynolds, charged with violating New Jersey's blasphemy laws.
Nor are blasphemy laws mere antiquated relics of the past. Unbelievably, these laws are still being invoked today to stifle speech and expression which religious groups disagree with or are offended by. For example, in 2002 an Austrian artist named Gerhard Haderer published a book entitled The Life of Jesus, a satirical depiction of the career of its title character. The book sold well and was translated into several languages, including Greek. Greece, however, still has blasphemy laws; and as soon as it went on sale there, the powerful Greek Orthodox church had the author charged under them. Although Haderer wrote the book in Austria and had not even known it was being published in Greece, due to the European Union's extradition laws he was compelled to travel there to stand trial. At the first round of his trial, he was found guilty and sentenced to a six-month suspended prison sentence, and his book was officially banned in Greece. Fortunately, thanks to widespread outcry he was acquitted on appeal in April 2005 and the ban lifted. However, the Greek blasphemy law itself does not seem to have been overturned, leaving open the possibility of similar abuses in the future. In a similar case from March 2005, a group of Catholic bishops used a French blasphemy law to force the banning of a fashion ad that parodied Leonardo da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper. And of course, Islamic nations still have barbaric blasphemy laws: the arrest and near execution of Dr. Younus Shaikh for allegedly violating Pakistan's is one recent example.

"It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to apostates or to read their writings to refute their arguments. Their twisted, poisonous reasoning can cause spiritual harm and can contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene."--excerpt from The Watchtower, 15 February 2004, p.28
Although concepts such as banned books and blasphemy laws still linger today, as the above sections demonstrate, it is fair to say that they are nowhere near as prominent as they once were. Thankfully, the rise of new memes such as freedom of speech has weakened these ideas greatly, at least in the Western world. However, although Western religious institutions have largely lost their ability to forcibly silence those with whom they disagree, the concept of dangerous knowledge persists in a more subtle form. Today, rather than external enforcement of the dangerous-knowledge meme, some churches and other religious institutions have persuaded believers to internalize this idea and make it part of their own thought processes - in effect, teaching believers to censor themselves.
An example of this is provided by the above quote, in which the Watchtower, governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, informs its members that they do not actually need to know what non-Jehovah's Witnesses are saying about their religion in order to know that it is not true. It also attempts to give them incentive to avoid such writings by the none too subtle technique of linking them with undesirable, repulsive concepts - contamination, poison, gangrene - thus producing a similar instinctive reaction of repulsion when ordinary Witnesses encounter such writings that would forestall any effort to read or understand them.
Another example is the phenomenon occurring among Christian young-earth creationists which geologist Glenn Morton, himself a former member of that group, called Morton's Demon, in reference to the scientific thought experiment imagined by James Clerk Maxwell and dubbed "Maxwell's demon". The more general version of this phenomenon, which occurs in believers other than just creationists, I would propose naming the "selective wall". The selective wall is the tendency of some theists to only expose themselves to information supportive of their religious convictions, while ignoring or filtering out all other information. Although this tendency manifests itself in many different ways, there is one guise in which the selective wall persistently recurs: Of all the theists who claim to reject atheism for solid evidential reasons, how many have read even one book arguing for atheism written by an actual atheist? Although some undoubtedly have, they are very rare indeed. In my experience, the vast majority of theists have concluded atheism was false based solely on what their pastors and apologists have told them, and have never allowed actual atheists to speak for themselves and make their own case before making up their minds.
Anti-Intellectualism

"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
--Luke 10:21 (KJV)
"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
--1 Corinthians 1:19 (KJV)
"If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."
--1 Corinthians 3:18-19 (KJV)
"Shun too great a desire for knowledge, for in it there is much fretting and delusion. Intellectuals like to appear learned and to be called wise. Yet there are many things the knowledge of which does little or no good to the soul, and he who concerns himself about other things than those which lead to salvation is very unwise."
--Thomas à Kempis, The Imitation of Christ, book 1, chapter 2
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."
--Pastor Ray Mummert, in response to an effort to prevent the teaching of "intelligent design" in public school science classes in Dover, Pennsylvania; sighted on Yahoo News, 27 March 2005
Another type of thought control technique that occasionally arises in religion is anti-intellectualism: the tendency of believers to view intelligence and education with suspicion and disdain, and conversely to take pride in ignorance. In sects where this meme is operative, the desire to understand how the world works is believed to be, at best, unfruitful and pointless, and at worst, a fatal distraction from the path of salvation that inevitably leads to arrogance and rejection of God. As the above quotes show, this tendency has a long history in Christianity, dating back to the writing of the Bible, and is still alive and well today.
The crowning expression of anti-intellectualism in the Judeo-Christian tradition is, of course, the story of humankind's fall from Eden in the Book of Genesis. According to this story, humanity's first sin, the one that led to our expulsion from Paradise and our condemnation to lives of toil and suffering, was the desire for knowledge. The message could hardly be less subtle: we should not seek to understand the world around us, but instead should be content to believe whatever God has told us and remain ignorant otherwise. Although written much later than the original text of Genesis, John Milton's epic Paradise Lost makes the same point, placing it in the mouth of the angel Raphael as advice to Adam and Eve: "Be lowly wise; / Think only what concerns thee and thy being; / Dream not to other worlds, what creatures there / Live, in what state, condition, or degree / Contented that thus far hath been revealed".
A similar expression of anti-intellectual sentiment can be found in the New Testament book of 1 Corinthians. According to the argument developed in this book, the belief that humanity can be redeemed through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ sounds foolish to non-Christians, but Christians understand it to be the only route to salvation. This claim is then developed into an extended argument about how it pleased God to save believers through a belief that the rest of humanity finds absurd, and how God will ultimately confound and destroy the "wisdom of the world". Again, the clear and consistent message of this scripture is that attempting to understand the world is a sin of pride and will ultimately lead to disaster and condemnation, while remaining "foolish" is a desirable thing since it will prevent one's mind from being clouded by excessive education.
Why would such a strain of anti-intellectual fervor develop in any religion? The answer may lie in this article from the website Common Dreams, which recounts an overheard conversation between two young Christians on the subject of higher education. In it, one warned another to be careful, because getting "too much education" could result in becoming, horror of horrors, a liberal. (The master's degree was identified as the specific threshold of danger, for the curious.) The particular field of study apparently did not matter; even faculty at Christian colleges, it seemed, might unintentionally lead students astray. The implicit message of this conversation - that the beliefs and values these young people had been taught could not survive excessive exposure to the real world - apparently did not occur to either of them.
Nor were their concerns unfounded. The conclusion that fundamentalist religious beliefs and higher education are mutually exclusive is borne out by the evidence. A January 12, 2004 survey by the Barna Research Group, a Christian polling firm, found that a "biblical worldview", defined as one that includes six tenets of fundamentalist Christianity, was frequency-dependent upon, among other things, the respondent's education level. Pastors who were seminary graduates were significantly less likely to hold this view than those that were not. A similar conclusion was reached by a 2001 Harvard University study by Bruce Sacerdote and Edward Glaeser titled "Education and Religion" (available for download here). This study found that, in general, increased education causes individuals to "sort into less fervent religions" and "decrease[s] belief in the returns to religious activity". The study found a strong negative correlation between higher education and beliefs that miracles occur, that heaven and hell exist, that the Devil is an actual being and that the Bible is literally true. More educated people were significantly less likely to believe all these things.
We now have a clear view of the reason why anti-intellectual memes cluster in the fundamentalist sects of many religions. Simply stated, they arose as a defense mechanism for belief systems that cannot survive exposure to the real world. Many religions, in particular the literal, fundamentalist versions of those religions, teach doctrines that are so flatly incompatible with the facts of the world and of human nature that they will often collapse when contrasted against alternative ways of thinking that better explain and accommodate those facts. To prevent this from happening, memes arise in these sects that teach followers not just that they should avoid education themselves, but also that they should scorn it in others. By teaching their believers in advance that intelligent, educated people will reject their doctrines, these religions not only prevent their followers from being surprised when this inevitably happens, but teach them to see it as a vindication.
This is not to say that all Christians or all theists are opposed to understanding the world. Many major religious traditions have produced great scientists and philosophers who have done much to increase humanity's store of knowledge and our own appreciation of the powers of the mind, and these efforts deserve respect and admiration. On the other hand, it would be equally foolish to deny that there is a virulent strain of anti-intellectualism lurking around the edges of many major religions. Not all the members of a given religion subscribe to it, just as not all members of a given faith subscribe to the idea that certain books should be banned or "blasphemous" statements outlawed. Nevertheless, that sentiment is there and can be strong.
...............................................................................................
Homo sapiens has always been a race of believers. Humankind invented religion before we invented writing. While some would doubtless say that the universality of theistic belief testifies to an external source of inspiration, the vast differences in the specifics of belief across many cultures suggest that the human will to believe, coupled with imagination, is the more likely cause. Religiosity is a basic tendency of human nature, and the institutions that have sprung from it are long-lasting and immensely powerful. This does not mean that it is futile for atheists and freethinkers to stand against it; it simply means we must recognize the magnitude of the task. When people consider their beliefs to be sacrosanct, with no room for doubt or compromise, there is no way to resolve disagreements except through the sword, and it is therefore no surprise that religious conflict has led to war, persecution and intolerance throughout history. But now more than ever, when our power to destroy is greater than it has ever been, it is all the more crucial that we rely on reason to guide our actions, rather than blind faith.
This, then, should be the goal: not eliminating religion, but illuminating the tactics by which it commands obedience and discourages doubt, so that people can recognize these and reject them. It is more important that we all make up our own minds, use reason to guide us, and do not passively rely on faith or authority than that we all be atheists. Rather than keep our thoughts in captivity, we should set them free to explore wherever they wish - to seek out different viewpoints, to question fearlessly, and most importantly, to expose all ideas to the fire of testing. The ones worth being kept will survive. Humanity has a vast potential to accomplish things as yet undreamed-of, but blind faith will never take us there. If we are to thread the needle of the dangers that beset us and enter into a future where we can realize this potential, this is the way we must learn to live.
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/thoughts.html
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 8 years ago

- Marking using EVERNOTE http://www.evernote.com/ for storing
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

Here's the part that refers specifically to Jehovah's Witnesses...

"It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to apostates or to read their writings to refute their arguments. Their twisted, poisonous reasoning can cause spiritual harm and can contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene."--excerpt from The Watchtower, 15 February 2004, p.28
Although concepts such as banned books and blasphemy laws still linger today, as the above sections demonstrate, it is fair to say that they are nowhere near as prominent as they once were. Thankfully, the rise of new memes such as freedom of speech has weakened these ideas greatly, at least in the Western world. However, although Western religious institutions have largely lost their ability to forcibly silence those with whom they disagree, the concept of dangerous knowledge persists in a more subtle form. Today, rather than external enforcement of the dangerous-knowledge meme, some churches and other religious institutions have persuaded believers to internalize this idea and make it part of their own thought processes - in effect, teaching believers to censor themselves.
An example of this is provided by the above quote, in which the Watchtower, governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, informs its members that they do not actually need to know what non-Jehovah's Witnesses are saying about their religion in order to know that it is not true. It also attempts to give them incentive to avoid such writings by the none too subtle technique of linking them with undesirable, repulsive concepts - contamination, poison, gangrene - thus producing a similar instinctive reaction of repulsion when ordinary Witnesses encounter such writings that would forestall any effort to read or understand them.
 
eclipse
eclipse 8 years ago

This now presents a new difficulty: if you promise something you cannot deliver, people will likely abandon you. But there is a way around that problem as well. Rather than promise your followers they will be rewarded immediately for their allegiance,
move the reward to somewhere where its existence can never be disproven.
One particularly clever way to do this is to perpetually keep the payoff in the distant but not too distant future, always just over the horizon, always soon but not yet.
This will inspire people to keep chasing it, to always be working just a little harder, doing a little more in anticipation of that day.
Another solution, not mutually exclusive with the other, is to
place the reward after death, in another life beyond this one. Not even the most skeptical examination can conclusively disprove it then.
Again, this will encourage your followers to work for you their entire lives without ever becoming discouraged.
It might also be helpful to counterbalance this promised great reward with an equally great punishment for those who will not believe,
and safeguard this from disproof using the same methods. This will provide strong incentive for believers not to stray, by appealing to their sense of self-preservation as well as their desire for happiness.
That's exactly what the Watchtower does.
Excellent article, Nvr. Great read
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago


That's exactly what the Watchtower does.
And the same goes for most religions.
 
Tatiana
Tatiana 8 years ago

Very good article. I see it's not only the WTBTS that is terrified of a "little knowledge."
"My appeal is as follows," Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said this week during a Vatican Radio broadcast. "Don't read and don't buy 'The Da Vinci Code.'"
--Tracy Wilkinson, "20 Million Copies Later, Vatican Says Don't Read 'Da Vinci Code'"; The Los Angeles Times, p.A1, 18 March 2005.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 8 years ago

excellent find nvr
 
AWAKE&WATCHING
AWAKE&WATCHING 8 years ago

N ~ excellent - I am thankful to you for this, it's just what I need.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Virus, from the latin virus, a toxin or poison.
One wonders what new memes are infecting the masses. It seems that the modern media would be an extremely efficient form of transmission.
But now more than ever, when our power to destroy is greater than it has ever been, it is all the more crucial that we rely on reason to guide our actions, rather than blind faith.
But if "successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect", and so widespread, how do we know that reason alone is truly guiding our actions?
I can observe, measure, quantify biological viruses. Can memes be subjected to a similar inquiry?
It would appear that the memetic virus is just a construct of Dawkins’ own philosophy--and a highly succesful meme at that, if the very commoness of the term "meme" in modern parlance means anything. Hence, a viral meme if there ever was one. Maybe all ideas are viruses. Maybe the idea of atheism is also a virus of the mind.
Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
I see thee yet, in form as palpable
As this which now I draw.
Thou marshall'st me the way that I was going;
And such an instrument I was to use.
Mine eyes are made the fools o' the other senses,
Or else worth all the rest; I see thee still,
And on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood,
Which was not so before. There's no such thing:
It is the bloody business which informs
Thus to mine eyes
http://www.clicknotes.com/macbeth/T21.html
Burn
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

Maybe the idea of atheism is also a virus of the mind.
You slay me, Burn.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

With what?
With my "dagger of the mind"? :wink:

Burn
 
Open mind
Open mind 8 years ago

Excellent article Nvr.
For some reason I'm very depressed now.
Open Mind
 
Tatiana
Tatiana 8 years ago

I'm not depressed....this makes so much sense to me...guess I have a "virus."
What all these statements and parables have in common is the unstated theme that it is somehow virtuous or praiseworthy to believe something that is not supported by the evidence. Why this should be so is inevitably never explained. What truly deserves praise and credit is a person willing to put their ideas to the test and accept the results whatever they may be - not a person coming up with an idea, proclaiming it out of bounds for investigation, and declaring that being a morally good person requires believing it blindly without doubt or question. There is nothing virtuous about this, and most religions would probably agree with that conclusion, at least in the abstract. And yet many religions and religious people, no matter how much they claim to approve of questioning and investigation, will rapidly shift their view to one of disapproval and condemnation when it becomes clear that such an investigation is not being carried out with the sole aim of supporting a predetermined conclusion about the infallibility of the belief system being investigated. Statements like the ones above are illustrations of what happens when a supposedly free and open investigation carried out by a believer runs up against the limits of what the authorities have declared their followers may not conclude.
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 8 years ago

Pointless I know, but...

But if "successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect", and so widespread, how do we know that reason alone is truly guiding our actions?
It behooves you to "get out of your mind" in some way so as to have that part of you (sometimes called the "observer") to the fore. This would allow one to more clearly observe memes (or beliefs, or thoughts) in play. Therapy or meditation may be your paths to this. But you are right - it is very difficult for a microscope to examine itself, so an outside mirror of some sort is usually helpful.

I can observe, measure, quantify biological viruses. Can memes be subjected to a similar inquiry?
Yes, to an extent - see above. They can be observed. It rarely happens in a vacuum, though. And it is a mostly subjective process, since only you can directly observe your own beliefs (the rest of us can see what you do, and only guess at what motivates you).

It would appear that the memetic virus is just a construct of Dawkins’ own philosophy.
Seems to adequately describe a mental process to me...perhaps as "provable" as, say, oh, I don't know...the existance of God?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

It behooves you to "get out of your mind"
Pray, teach us how to do that! Subjectivities cannot be shed.
Yes, to an extent - see above. They can be observed.
So can many things that are outside science's ken.
Seems to adequately describe a mental process to me...perhaps as "provable" as, say, oh, I don't know...the existance of God?
Hence the irony of the memetic religion-as-a-virus concept. "God" adequately describes a universal process to me.
Burn
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 8 years ago

Excellent! One to print off and keep.
Thanks nvrgnbk
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

To use the memetic paradigm, all of information is viral in nature and it competes continuosly to reproduce-selfishly. The propagation mechanisms, while physically diverse, are remarkably similar to the complex processes that govern the selfish reproduction of genetic material. Thus the coinage of the term "memetics".
There is no reason to limit the scope of memetics to religion. Scientific theory reproduces and spreads in a similar manner. Ideas instantiate on a host as the result of observation and as the offspring of the combination of other knowledge, they propagate to other hosts through either language or observation, and they compete with one another for supremacy. The memetic fields of battle are armed conflicts, markets, universities, and tables at you local coffee house. Whichever theories confer the best advantages to their hosts propagate preferentially over those that are flawed in relation.
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

For some reason I'm very depressed now.
Chin up, buddy.
We'll all be dead before you know it, so it doesn't really matter.
Feel better now?


 
hillary_step
hillary_step 8 years ago

Burn,
Your posts remind me of a butterfly circling and fluttering temptingly around the atheist, insect-eating, antitypical plant of false religion.
Do not stray too close Burnished Skipper, for thine arse will be paddled by logic and your Eyes Will See The Gory of the Lord. :wink:
HS
 
Mrs. Witness
Mrs. Witness 8 years ago

Interesting article nvr. I enjoyed it. Being the skeptic that I am, I thought that perhaps Mr. Dawkins had created his own meme with his meme theory and I see from prior posts that I'm not alone in that idea. Still, I wish I could get Mr. Witness to read the article, but since it's from an "athesist" site, I'm sure he'd be afraid that it would burn his eyes from their very sockets.
Mrs. Witness (of the "I don't subscribe to any ism" class)
 

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Faith vs. Reason- Watchtower "apostate" quote+refutation by atheist author
by nvrgnbk 8 years ago 38 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Your posts remind me of a butterfly circling and fluttering temptingly around the atheist, insect-eating, antitypical plant of false religion.
Be careful Flytrap. I am highly indigestible.
Nemo me impune lacessit.
Burn
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

Burn,
Maybe all ideas are viruses. Maybe the idea of atheism is also a virus of the mind.
To be fair, wasn't the author (And by extension, Dawkins) more than upfront on these two questions?

"Any idea or concept that is passed from person to person can be a meme, and the sum total of the memes in a given society forms what is usually referred to as culture. There are all sorts of memes: a meme can be as trivial a concept as an advertising slogan, a slang expression, a clothing style or a catchy musical refrain; or it can be as powerful and world-shaping an idea as democracy, freedom of speech, science, or God. The concept of the meme is itself a meme."
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago


Mrs. Witness (of the "I don't subscribe to any ism" class)
What's often overlooked when referring to atheism as an "ism" is that it's the "a" in atheism that's operative, the "ism" part belongs to "theism", IMO.
 
PoppyR
PoppyR 8 years ago

I am currently reading 'the God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, although It is necessary to use a dictionary as well as he is so verbose! I think I have a good vocabulary but I also know people who have given up on reading it because it's just too much like hard work.
Anyway, I am really enjoying it, still not a total atheist, but his points about organised religion are very good and very through provoking. He also talks about 'the flying spaghetti monster' which made me laugh as I thought that was a product of someone witty here on JWD.
Highly recommended.
 
Mrs. Witness
Mrs. Witness 8 years ago

Ah, yes, my dear nvr, but still, atheism is an "ism". I suppose, my anti "ism" stance could also be called an "ism", since, "ism" denotes a belief system, does it not? I just have not formalized my group yet... I'm on my way now to look for followers. I have a pamphelt I'll be giving out door-to-door.
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

I suppose, my anti "ism" stance could also be called an "ism", since, "ism" denotes a belief system, does it not?
Precisely!
 
Mrs. Witness
Mrs. Witness 8 years ago


I suppose, my anti "ism" stance could also be called an "ism", since, "ism" denotes a belief system, does it not?
Precisely!
We're doomed, aren't we? :o)
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago



I suppose, my anti "ism" stance could also be called an "ism", since, "ism" denotes a belief system, does it not?
Precisely!We're doomed, aren't we? :o)
Defeatism too?
LOL!
 
Mrs. Witness
Mrs. Witness 8 years ago

I'm dealing with a hard core JW hubby...yes on some days I do subscribe to defeatism...some days optimism...other days pessimism...UGH, I give in, I am a victim of ISM's! They're everywhere!
Mrs. Witness (of the Sybil ISM class)
 
eclipse
eclipse 8 years ago

This, then, should be the goal: not eliminating religion,
but illuminating the tactics by which it commands obedience and discourages doubt,
so that people can recognize these and reject them.
 It is more important that we all make up our own minds, use reason to guide us, and do not passively rely on faith or authority than that we all be atheists.
 Any theists / christians out there think that this statement is not reasonable?
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

The second major issue is transmission. You may be able to sway a few people into believing you, but spending all your time evangelizing would be tedious and slow.For maximum efficiency and rate of spread, the type of growth to strive after is exponential, in which the more followers you have, the more converts you make. The obvious solution is to add to this suite of beliefs a new one that encourages the converted to work to convert others as well. Since we already have the reward proposition, one could justify this by modifying it slightly to inform your followers that it will increase their own reward further to win converts. However, a more subtle and potentially even more effective way is to tell your followers that they should want to convert other people for those people's own good, so that they can share in this wonderful reward. This will give your followers a strong reason to want to evangelize: they will believe that it is the moral thing to do. The existence of a punishment for nonbelievers, as above, will aid in this. Transmission of these beliefs can also be made more effective by encouraging adult converts to teach them to children, who by their nature are more trusting and less skeptical. Throughout their lives, people rarely throw off the beliefs that they were taught while young.
LMAO @ this.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago



Any theists / christians out there think that this statement is not reasonable?


It is reasonable.

Burn
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 8 years ago

Wow, talk about nailing the Borg's playbook! Dead on! I'd better save that essay.
 
flipper
flipper 8 years ago

It is so like the Watchtower societies style to paint any information from apostates as " gangrene " or" poisonous " thus as you said, immediately putting a negative image or picture in the minds of rank and file members . The society tries to control not only the information they hear , but scare them away from information they need to hear.  The GB are all nutcases , IMHO, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 8 years ago

Hi Burn: Not meaning to pester, but:

Pray, teach us how to do that! Subjectivities cannot be shed.
Seems a bit dogmatic. As I pointed out, two such paths to observing your own subjectivities are therapy and meditation. A skilled psychotherapist can help you to see your beliefs more clearly, help you to challenge your own preconceptions, become more an observer than merely be at the whim of your thoughts. Another mechanism for you may be Zen Buddhism. Neither path is a quick fix, but both have been helpful to people trying to shed some of the subjectiveness.
Of specific help, you might try working with a Certified Hakomi Therapist, which blends a meditative posture with therapy. Or any of a number of self-realization or self-actualization workshops. I'm not sure what will work for you, but I have known many people very well who have come to a balanced place, aware of but not at the mercy of their subjectivities.
Some of them choose to continue a belief in the divine - but are aware that this is a choice that they make because it serves them well in their lives.
Not that I'm suggesting anyone in particular needs or wants therapy. There are broadening paths available to blunt the hold that subjectivity has on us. Will it go away completely? Not in my experience - but it can be moderated.

Whichever theories confer the best advantages to their hosts propagate preferentially over those that are flawed in relation.
Since preferred theories do propogate (and they are preferred usually because they have verifiable results in the lab), I wouldn't have a problem with that. The major difference between religious memes and what you call scientific ones is that scientific ones are always open to continued testing and (sometimes with the difficulty of religious mems) are withdrawn when found wanting.
Unlike JW memes. Which hare not propogating all that well, considering that less than .1% of the human population have been successfully infected.
I need a meme inoculation...
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

The third important issue is how to retain believers. Since the purpose of this assembly of memes is to keep people under control, encouraging them to think for themselves and question their beliefs is probably a bad idea. Those activities have been feared by those who would control others throughout history, and with good reason: skeptics and freethinkers are by nature difficult to herd. Instead, you want your followers to be passive, accustomed to obedience and unaccustomed to doubting your authority. The most effective way to achieve this is to add to the memetic virus a suite of beliefs that will convince those harboring the virus not to question it. These beliefs would teach your followers not to expose themselves to information or arguments that could damage their beliefs and, where possible, to cut off other believers' access to such information. Most important, teach them that they must always think of their belief as true, no matter what the facts say, and their personal faith takes priority over the evidence of the external world. If possible, teach that absolute trust and obedience are virtues, while doubt, for any reason whatsoever, is a sin, and puts them in jeopardy of losing their promised reward, or worse, suffering the corresponding punishment.
This is too funny.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

psychotherapist
Not psychotherapy again!
There's a pseudoscience, if there ever was one.
The major difference between religious memes and what you call scientific ones is that scientific ones are always open to continued testing and (sometimes with the difficulty of religious mems) are withdrawn when found wanting.
I would contend that the evolution of memes would apply to religious memes as well.
Burn
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 8 years ago

Burn: On pyschotherapy, I wouldn't put it in the same class of "science" as the hard sciences. But to give it such an ad hominem attack belies a dogmatic position on your part that leads me to believe you are not willing to let go of your subjectivities. :wink: But to not get in the way of anyone's path to self awareness, let me continue to recommend Zen Buddhism as an alternate to anything with the word "therapy" in it.
At least many aspects of psychotherapy are presented as theories and go through repeatable experimentation to determine their accuracy. Not so with many religious concepts, which are entirely subjective yet presented as fact - with no recourse to thinking, let alone debate. Kinda like the broad brush that dismisses psychotherapy as "psuedo science". Pehaps another meme at work?
 
IT Support
IT Support 8 years ago

A similar conclusion was reached by a 2001 Harvard University study by Bruce Sacerdote and Edward Glaeser titled "Education and Religion" (available for download here). This study found that, in general, increased education causes individuals to "sort into less fervent religions" and "decrease[s] belief in the returns to religious activity". The study found a strong negative correlation between higher education and beliefs that miracles occur, that heaven and hell exist, that the Devil is an actual being and that the Bible is literally true. More educated people were significantly less likely to believe all these things.
The above link is no longer valid; if anyone's interested, the paper is now available from:

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/glaeser/files/Ed_and_Rel.pdf
Good find, nvr, thanks.
Actually, the entire site, Ebon Musings, contains many excellent articles on atheism and evolution.

 

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Topic Summary
please read.
it mentions the watchtower and has some interesting things to say about it.. thoughts in captivity.
faith versus reason in religion.



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Watchtower hx with Catholics/Protestants
by dungbeetle 14 years ago 4 Replies latest 14 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


In response to this thread, I would like to contribute for your reading 'PLEASURE'
* http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=15718&site=3
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the Catholic Church…
WT 1/1/50
Take the greatest religious organization in the world today, the Roman Catholic Hierarchy. Look at it. Note the evils it has done in the name of religion: how it has corrupted nations; how it has managed to hold its members in illiteracy; how it has controlled education in many countries and kept the poor people in ignorance; how it has hid the Bible and had its Bible-burnings so that the Book of freedom would never become the peoples’ Textbook of life. Yes, look at the world it influences! Its wars! Its torture chambers! Its bloodshedding! Its oppression of the poor! Why have they not given the people the Bible, so that they could learn of the true God, his Son and the way of life eternal?
The following are the number of quotes from the Watchtower magazine about the Catholic Church (first column) and Protestant clergy (second column). All are negative except for a handful that are merely qotations from Catholic literature.
Cath Pros
1950 141 20
1951 97 18
1952 245 27
1953 178 27
1954 112 17
1955 221 29
1956 155 35
1957 141 23
1958 98 21
1959 86 16
1960 124 14
1961 83 19
1962 101 27
1963 127 25
1964 65 13
1965 44 6
1966 86 25
1967 57 16
1968 96 22
1969 55 12
1970 156 27
1971 120 29
1972 64 10
1973 95 13
1974 88 26
1975 120 20
1976 119 7
1977 85 20
1978 86 12
1979 88 10
1980 96 14
1981 137 27
1982 88 23
1983 118 15
1984 109 33
1985 86 25
1986 66 6
1987 94 41
1988 72 10
1989 132 25
1990 69 8
1991 98 15
1992 75 9
1993 64 20
1994 80 14
1995 84 16
1996 65 14
1997 46 11
1998 82 15
1999 33 15
The grand totals are (from Watchtower mag only):
Catholic (not including catholicism or catholics) 5027
Protestant (not including protestantism or protestants) 969
Buddhists and Buddhism combined: 330
And the grand prize goes to the Buddhists!!!!

BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

Hmmmm, there was a big drop in quotes from Catholic sources in 1999. In light of the UN debacle, do you think they're being kinder to the Catholics because they've stitched up some secret deal with the Pope behind the backs of the R&F?
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


There seems to be a huge and steady drop after 1989...but then I didn't add 'catholics' or 'catholicism'; you know variations to the search. maybe I'll do that today.
I just think it's hilarious that they badmouth these religions so much and then quote from the literature...go figure!!!
BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
 
hawkaw
hawkaw 14 years ago


These stats are amasing. The hatred and religious bigotry is just stunning and so tough for the average Witness to see.
I have decided to print this article out in full and begin my own search on my own 1999 Watchtower CD ROM.
Do you know that one of the nicest and coolest people in the whole wide world gave me this CD. Thanks buddy.
Hey dung, does "Bite Me, Watchtower!!!" = "Kick him where it hurts, in the stones!!!"
LOL
hawk
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


Hee Hee Hee Hee
You GO Hawkaw!!!
BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
 

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Getting JWs To Think By Using Their Own Tactics On Them.
by Island Man a year ago 22 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Island Man
Island Man a year ago

I've been thinking that an effective way to expose the idiocy and vacuousness of JWism is to use it right back on them when they come to your door.
Say you're a fader and you've moved to the territory of a different circuit where the JWs there don't know your JW background. When they come knocking at your door, just put on the JW mindset and pretend to yourself that the JWs at the door are not JWs but members of a "false religion."
When they offer you literature, you tell them something JWish like: "Sorry I don't accept literature of other religions. I don't believe in interfaith."
When the JW says it's all based on the bible you say: "Well, I know for a fact that my religion is based on the bible and I have the truth, and since Ephesians 4 says there is only one faith . . . your religion can't also be the truth and so I can't accept your religion's literature which contains false religious lies -- no offense."
Let's say you tell them you're a Catholic and they start mentioning the Catholic pedophile scandal that was prominent in the news a few years ago. You respond by saying: "These are just satanic lies by our opposers. You can't believe everything you hear in the media."
If they point out the unscriptural catholic teaching of purgatory you just tell them that catholics no longer believe that -- that the light of truth gets brighter with time just as Proverbs 4:18 says and so even if there might be some errors in current catholic teaching, God will refine the understanding of the church in time and so you will not be disloyal to God's catholic organization by leaving the religion just because of the errors of imperfect men of the past."
If you say you're a catholic and one of the JWs at your door say they used to be a catholic, you can say: "You're an apostate! I don't want to hear anything you have to say! You're only here to draw me away from serving God as part of his earthly Catholic organization!"
By now you get the drift. When you use JW reasoning to counter JWs efforts to preach to you, you either force the JWs to confront the idiocy of their own reasoning (if the particular JWs at the door are smart enough to see the similarity) or you force them to argue against their own reasoning in an effort to try to reach you. It's a lose-lose situation for them.
 +11 / -0
LosingMyReligion
LosingMyReligion a year ago

This sounds like a lot of fun! I actually think it might work, in the sense that it might get some of them to think a little. Especially the part about apostacy couldbe a home-run. Imagine if everyone should treat people who change religion like the witnesses do? If you are able to pull it of in a nice, non "better-then-you" way then they will absorb it and recognise your pattern of thought. I remember when I was pioneering I would always be fascinated whenever I met someone with real Bible knowledge in the door-to-door ministry who could show me something in the Bible instead of the other way around.
 +3 / -0
Oogie
Oogie a year ago
Liking for the genius aspect...

 
Ding
Ding a year ago

Very good!
Funny too.
You could also add an out of context quotation into the mix by saying, "Why should I listen to someone who disobeys the Bible by going door to door? Haven't you ever read Luke 10:7: 'Do not keep transferring from house to house.'"
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 a year ago

You credit JWs with the ability to dispassionately weigh up the householder's answers. Good luck!
It might work if the JW has a reasonable level of flexibility in their thinking. Unfortunately, they will more than likely view anyone else speaking that way as being "arrogant and closed-minded".
And therein lies the psychological snare: People are usually oblvious to their own "errors" of thinking but notice those same "errors" of thinking in others - either that, or they will judge the same words more harshly when uttered by someone else outside their group. This is what Jesus was quoted as saying when he said, "First take the rafter out of your own eye".
For example, I could imagine JWs reasoning as follows: "Because we actually do have the truth, our reasons for refusing other religion's literature are valid; whereas, because other religions are false, they are closed-minded in refusing our literature".
 
blondie
blondie a year ago

Very good...when a jw I saw non-jws use that same tactic. jws encourage them to examine their religion but if a jw did that well they would be an apostate. The WTS says why would you examine another religion if you know your own is the true one.
 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a year ago

The JWs I know are impervious to getting the point of reverse psychology, role reversal, or even just sarcasm and irony. That's how they can sit through years of WT studies that skewer the Catholics and never ever apply the same information to themselves.
For instance, I asked a CO once how teaching people they will die at armageddon if they don't become a JW is any different from the Catholic's teaching people they will go to hell ?
His answer: the sound of crickets then....."no we don't"
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 a year ago

Ten words a JW will never utter (or if they do, they are already on the way out) after listening to your use of reverse psychology:
 "Goodness! I have never thought of it that way before"

 
Oubliette
Oubliette a year ago

Funny.
Let us know how it goes.
 
scary21
scary21 a year ago

Island Man, I just love how your mind works !


 +2 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd a year ago
Oh that was funny. I enjoyed that.
 +2 / -0
rip van winkle
rip van winkle a year ago
☑🐸🌼🍷
 
Island Man
Island Man a year ago

Thanks for all the responses.
steve2: You credit JWs with the ability to dispassionately weigh up the householder's answers. Good luck!
It might work if the JW has a reasonable level of flexibility in their thinking. Unfortunately, they will more than likely view anyone else speaking that way as being "arrogant and closed-minded".
You're probably right, steve2. But the way I look at it: If blatant examples of JW reasoning can be used by a householder to reject the JW message without the JW noticing the error of JW reasoning then such a JW is willfully blind and deserves to be in the dysfunctional, dystopian Watchtower environment.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

I LOVE IT!!
I now want to go somewhere no one knows me, just to try this out!!
Great thread!
 +2 / -0
whathehadas
whathehadas a year ago

Sounds clever but I think you will tip off that you were or had association with the JWs. How many Christian religions interpret the scriptures the same as them? A dead giveaway would be using Proverbs 4:18

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140901205432/degrassi/images/2/29/Hero-Charles-Ramsey-Dead-Giveaway-Reaction-Gif.gif
 
steve2
steve2 a year ago

I am very open to evidence that contradicts my own conclusions. I also admire anyone who is willing o use more thoughtfully creative approaches to dialoguing with the Witnesses!
 +1 / -0
ivanatahan
ivanatahan a year ago

I gotta say, if you use this tactic, you might end up making them simply leave the door. I'm thinking that if you somehow are able to make them come back by saying that you're only "kidding", then you could justify it by saying "I just wanted to demonstrate how JWs like you defend their faith", and hopefully they'll pay enough attention to hear that, and you could make them think.
It may sound like nonsense, but being away from a JW mindset of a while made me forget how JWs think.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a year ago
I have used their own publications with no avail. I had a couple of elders over when I was having doubts and used a quote in the old Truth book about truth and even one false hood destroys the whole thing. (not sure of the exact quote) but they just side step it. Their so delusional that is the true religion of god nothing works. The scripture at Isaiah 43 seals the deal I guess and when the average JW is so stupid then their easily deceived.
 
EdenOne
EdenOne a year ago

It's a funny idea, but hard to master and not give away that you're really an ex-JW. I'd like to hear about it when someone actually does this.
Eden
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago
As Barney said "challenge accepted"!
 

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Getting JWs To Think By Using Their Own Tactics On Them.
by Island Man a year ago 22 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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smiddy
smiddy a year ago

I think it was quite good except for one drawback , after each answer you give , highlight the fact "is`n`t that how you would answer such a question ? Thereby really putting the ball in their park .
Just a suggestion .
smiddy
 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy a year ago

I nearly got to have a go at something like this a few months back, I was in a little one-man-band business premises about 50 miles from home, and realized the guy was JDUB, he had left tracts lying on his desk, and then he began preaching to another customer as I was browsing.
I thought "the first thing I shall pick you up on is your phrase "....the Bible teaches", it doesn't, men say what they think it teaches, but I wasn't going to let on I was an XJW, and have some fun. Then, damn me if a couple of JDubs I knew walked in, and by shaking hands etc blew my cover.
I would dearly love to have a go by this method you outlined in the O.P, it surely must at the very minimum make them feel uncomfortable.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

Damn; I wish I'd thought of this.
x
It would absolutely have to be played straight, though...
...if you smiled or started laughing, it would all fall apart.
 

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Topic Summary
i've been thinking that an effective way to expose the idiocy and vacuousness of jwism is to use it right back on them when they come to your door.
say you're a fader and you've moved to the territory of a different circuit where the jws there don't know your jw background.
when they come knocking at your door, just put on the jw mindset and pretend to yourself that the jws at the door are not jws but members of a "false religion.".



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Ireland apologizes to women of Catholic laundries
by designs 3 years ago 17 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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designs
designs 3 years ago

The Catholic laundries known as the Magdelene Laundries were where thousands of women were kept incarcerated as 'prostitutes' although very few actually were. Most of the thousands of women were from broken homes and homeless.
Ireland has conducted 5 formal investigations into these Catholic run houses. These women were sentenced to these labor and boarding houses by the State and Courts. Once there they performed laundry duties for outside interests like hotels, hospitals, and prisons, they also made crafts for the Catholic Church to sell for profit (Rosaries).
Prime Minister Enda Kenney called this treatment a 'National Shame' because the women were forgotten as they labored in conditions that were 'morally unacceptable' as to how the Catholic Nuns treated their charges.
Begun after Ireland became independant in 1922, the 'fledgling' state assigned the Catholic Church to address wayward women and young boys. Under a similar program tens of thousands of young boys were sent to Catholic boarding run schools where many experienced the sexual abuse that is now coming to light.
Kenny felt that more than an State apology was needed and compensation will be offered to the remaining 1000 women who survive today. The last Magdalene Laundry was closed in 1996.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

I saw the movie, the Magdalene Sisters. Good movie. Glad they are realizing how bad things were and are offering apologies and acknowledgment, and perhaps compensation.
Peace,
tammy
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

tec- You can imagine the mental anguish these women endured in addition to the hard physical labor and being seperated from family.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 3 years ago

They had them in the USA, too and they were run by Irish Nuns and priests. I can remember girls saying, "My parents are threatening to send me to live in a convent." The laundries were bad.
I do want to add that not all convents and convent schools for girls were like the Irish Catholic Magdalene Convent/laundries. My sister was sent to live in a Roman Catholic home for unwed mothers in New Orleans when she was 15. She said the house was a big, grand, victorian house. The girls had their own bedrooms, chores to do and they were allowed to go take the bus or trolley around the city. She said they each cooked meals sometimes as well. She said she was treated well and could have chosen to keep her baby if she would have had a way to support the baby and a place to live.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

That is good to know. Many churches do run decent homes for unwed pregnant teens. As an elder I suggested setting up a shelter for JWs out of work or homeless, all I got from the meeting were stares.
 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

I grew up in this "crappy" type theocracy in Ireland, and my right wing American friends here in the USA can't understand why I'm so against their religious input into American politics. It was terrible in Ireland, and is terrible in the middle east. ...Vote for the tea party and GOP, if you want to go back to the middle ages !!!
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Pterist- Did you live in Ireland at the time when the last Magdalene Laundry closed (1996).
 
Sulla
Sulla 3 years ago

Hmmm. Or, maybe not so much...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100202781/catholic-bashers-have-embellished-the-truth-about-abuse-in-catholic-institutions-its-time-to-put-the-record-straight/
with link to the 1,000(!) page study:
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/MagdalenRpt2013
From the Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0209/1224329839729.html


“We have always said the one-size-fits-all model of survivor does not apply,” says James M Smith, a leading researcher on the laundries and a member of the Justice for Magdalenes advisory committee.
Of Mullan’s film, he says: “I have said then and since, no survivor I have spoken to has alluded to women suffering sexual abuse in the Magdalene laundries. They were predominantly female and run by female religious; sexual abuse was endemic in male institutions.”
He notes survivors have also denied that women were stripped naked and examined by nuns, as depicted in The Magdalene Sisters. However, the use of hair cutting as a punishment is confirmed by a set of laundry “house rules” that Dr Smith discovered.
This document is included in the McAleese report, along with testimony of three women who said they had either experienced or seen hair-cutting as a punishment. Head-shaving was reported only once, however, in a case of head lice.

 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

Nope, I have been this side of the Atlantic since 1990, before that a year in Australia ! :wink:
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 3 years ago

I read somewhere in the past couple of days that there were laundries up until 2012 I think it was. I read that the nuns thought they were helping the women and girls do penance. The laundries started out in earlier centuries as places to help prostitutes get off the streets. It evolved into something corrupt with the nuns, priests, police and even families involved.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 3 years ago

I want to point out that Roman Catholic nuns cut their own hair and keep it very short and plain. I'm not saying it was okay for the nuns to cut the other women's hair. If you look at photos of the laundries, the women do have hair.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Maybe the new Irish government thought it was the best of imperfect choices. 'Penance' can go to extremes, especially among the religious who have practiced ritual self inflicted pain and wounds and self-denial.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 3 years ago

It definitely was taken to an extreme. Sometime, read about how different orders of nuns were initiated. I read once about how a young nun had to lay in a splintery pine coffin for hours. Most nuns don't do that kind of thing now. You're right though, they were pretty cruel to themselves, too. Sad.
 
LoisLane looking for Superman
LoisLane looking for Superman 3 years ago

I did not know about these women. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Just Lois
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

JL-
I am not certain if the film was shown in the US. Several News sources carried the Prime Minister's statement that the Irish government felt more was needed than an official apology. Maybe the extra mile the government is going to is meant to send a message to the Catholic Church as well. The documentary Mea Culpa, describing the child abuse issue, is currently being shown on HBO and other cable outlets.
 
88JM
88JM 3 years ago

In a radio interview, I heard one of the poor women mentioning despite her treatment not being as bad as many others, and only being there for a few months, she still needed years of counselling afterwards. It really made me think just how fragile we can all be, and never to underestimate the effects these situations can have long-term.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

88JM- I think some who have been in the Bethel homes may relate. Not all received horrible treatment but somehow something just wasn't right and many have traumatic memories and health issues from their time in those places.
 
88JM
88JM 3 years ago

Yes that was my thought exactly, but I didn't want to make the comparison.
 

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Not on JW.ORG : San Francisco court orders Catholic workers to attend Jehovah's Witness meeting. Will Jehovah's Witnesses now be ordered to Catholic Churches?
by Balaamsass2 2 years ago 15 Replies latest 2 years ago   social current
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Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 2 years ago

Catholic Workers Ordered to Attend Jehovah’s Witness Meeting
September 8, 2014 by Mary Maria Leave a Comment

jehovash-witnesses
San Francisco, California – In an interesting case of religious rights in the workplace, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that employees of the San Gabriel/Pomona Regional Center must attend services from the Kingdom Hall of the Jehovah’s witnesses. The protestant church is not exactly known for its ecumenical cooperation or respect for the Catholic Church which it often decries as being a supreme object over the whole earth that rhymes with the word “lore”.
At issue is a five year dispute brought on by Catholic employees who care for a disabled man at the facility. The man is a Jehovah’s Witness and would like to attend services for his faith. The trouble is that his disability requires physical assistance to and from the place of worship and constant monitoring. This means those workers providing aid to him would effectively have to sit through the meetings. The workers sternly objected to attending the services claiming that Catholic dogma forbids attending worship at other churches. To bolster their position, they cited Title 7 regarding the rights of workers which requires employers to make “reasonable accommodation” to the honest beliefs and practices of religious adherents.
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided that “reasonable accommodation” does not mean the employer has to accommodate the religious beliefs of their employees. Presumably, in the case of the San Gabriel/Pomona Regional Center, an effort was made to find someone capable of assisting the disabled patient whose religious sensitivities would not be offended. This was not possible. In the end, the judges cited the fact that the disabled man also had the right to be treated. Also, the attorneys for the workers failed to make the case that standing by as mere observers at the church would be akin to being compelled to worship in a manner contrary to their religious beliefs
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

There was another extensive thread on this some days ago. I recall sharing a few pearls of unforgettable wisdom in a post or two on the thread.
 
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 2 years ago

Curious if the patients spiritual "brothers" were willing to assist during meetings...or if the elders decided he should just miss the meeting.
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/283006/1/A-catholic-court-ordered-to-attend-jehovahs-witnesses-kingdomhall#.VBCfzk1OUfg
Or the patient can "tie in" by phone.
Or the orderlies can wait out in the lobby.
Or the orderlies can participate in the comment section of the meeting, especially if any odious comments are made about "Christendom".
 
EndofMysteries
EndofMysteries 2 years ago

I wish this story or some ex jws had contacted those in this case and provided them the numerous sources of JW doctrine and commands that forbid going into ANY church and the consequences. Giving that to the judge it would have shown how hypocritical the disabled man is for wanting catholics to be forced into his church when his own doctrine forbids the opposite.
 
AlphaMan
AlphaMan 2 years ago

This is total bullshit. The crybaby Jehovah Witnesses would be the first crying to the court about their rights being violated if their employer ask them to go to church with a patient. Of course the JW religion does not have the integrity to respect the conscience of the Catholic people and tell the judge to not force them to attend meetings at the KH. Where are the JW's when it comes to picking this man up and carring for him at their meetings? They are nowwhere as usual because they consider old people a burden to them if they need anykind of assistance at all or they don't fit the Corporate profile.
 
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 2 years ago

The old JW is no doubt broke= no help from JW land.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

I got no problem with being ordered to take him there, take him inside, pick him up afterward. But if he can't sit through up to 2 hours without some kind of assistance that couldn't be provided by his "brothers and sisters," it would be ridiculous to order someone to sit through that crap. But I don't know enough to really comment beyond that.
If my job forced me to be a caregiver in a "church," I would be as disruptive as necessary. I would be in scrubs and I would say how I need to be in such a place with so much room and I would make the members accomodate me every frigging time I came there. No sitting in the back for my patient- "He can't adequately hear the talks and see the speaker's gestures and I don't want to be accused of violating some portion of my court order. Put us up front, and I will need an outlet for [something]."
I know a JW would not sit through some other religious services to keep his job.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 2 years ago

I believe this summary has some problems with it. Both sides have merit. The disabled man should receive accomodations so he can worship the church of his choice. When I active decades ago, the Witnesses were always knocking the RC. Much of what they said, I took at faith, only to subsequently learn that the Witnesses were not reporting the RC accurately. In my house, it was made worse by father's antiRC faith which I attribute to Bethel. I would not want RC people to hear what the Witnesses lie. An appeals court will probably decide.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 2 years ago

My reading of the report gave the impression that the man needed "constant monitoring" so perhaps it is specialised and the congo could not do it.
In fact they could, in good conscience, attend a Catholic Service in a similar situation. The WTS say that une may attend a church wedding or funeral if required to by family - just not participate in the hymns or prayers. There is always the Bible example of Nehemiah who took the king to his temple .
 
Gustv Cintrn
Gustv Cintrn 2 years ago

Catholic dogma forbids attending worship at other churches.
Well now, I thought only JWs were forbidden to attend other religious services. Too sad that somebody in the cong would not make themselves available to take this person to the KH meetings. Love is surely lacking.
GC
 
EndofMysteries
EndofMysteries 2 years ago

"In fact they could, in good conscience, attend a Catholic Service in a similar situation. The WTS say that une may attend a church wedding or funeral if required to by family - just not participate in the hymns or prayers. There is always the Bible example of Nehemiah who took the king to his temple ."
You forgot to included the BIG *ASTERISKS* the WT puts in their articles whenver they make statements like that. Infact the * is SO BIG, they just put in in the paragraph right after the statement like demonstrated above. It will say something like this..

BUT you should consider if it would bother your conscience going to a funeral or wedding at another service. Or the conscience of your spouse. Or perhaps somebody studying or another witness may notice you going to that church and it could stumble them. (bible quote about not even eating if it would stumble a brother). So you must weigh all the costs, it is worth harming your own conscience or the conscience of another. (what that statement is really saying is ,'we are trying to appear moderate to bible studies, but any active JW's better be DAMN SURE they DON'T or they'll be marched in the back room by elders questioning their spirituality)
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

Yup, hubby drops me off at the BACK entrance of church. In case a member from his congregation (just down the street) saw him drop me off at the FRONT. A "brother" saw him that one time and asked him outright if he was attending. Because if he was well, then....
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 years ago

I bet those helpers become JWs once they hear the unassailable reasoning in the WT. LOL!! Here comes another Andre story!!
Why doesnt someone from JWN, who live in the are, try to contact these workers?? Tell them all about JWN and JWFacts.com. You know they are pissed about going. They may want to blog all about it! The WT needs more exposure!!

DD
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 years ago

DD -
I looked up the care organization (I don't remember what i was called) when I saw the other thread on this topic. I found their contact information and sent an email urging them to provide any workers who might attend JW meetings with the jwfacts link, and cited the use of undue influence by JWs.
 
EndofMysteries
EndofMysteries 2 years ago

I HAVE A GREAT IDEA FOR THOSE WORKERS!!!!
If somebody can contact them, get them to learn all of the 'apostate' aka TTATT stuff, then when they are forced at the KH, to FREELY raise hands to give comments and to talk to everybody around them about all the TRUTH they learned about the KH.
Watch how fast that KH makes arrangements for the disabled brother or tries to kick them all out LOL
 

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Having It Both Ways As A Jehovah's Witness
by Bangalore 5 years ago 7 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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Bangalore
Bangalore 5 years ago

Having It Both Ways As A Jehovah's Witness.
Source : thejehovahswitnesses.com (site no longer exists)
Increase in JWs evidence of divine blessing
When people are joining the JWs in large numbers, they say it is evidence of Jehovah's blessing. (Watchtower July 1, 2002, p.13, paragraph 17-19)
But when the numbers are down they claim it' s because “the greater number has cooled off.
JWs can take blood, but can ' t donate any blood
JWs are allowed to take every single component of blood (including the ones that transmit diseases) from other people and the general blood supply.
But JWs are NOT allowed to donate any blood back to the very system they take blood from!
Kids dying from no blood
They brag about how many JW kids face death because of their stance on blood, including putting the kid's pictures on the cover of the Awake magazine. (Awake! 1994 May 22 p.2 Youths Who Put God First 3-15)
But JWs say Satan is persecuting them when they are labeled as child killers. (Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.14 par. 4 Defending Our Faith)
Strong Families
If someone wants to leave the JWs (like me), they are labeled as apostates and shunned - even by family members.(Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.17 Defending Our Faith)
But JWs say Satan is persecuting them when they are labeled as a religion that breaks up families.(Kingdom Ministry August 2002 pp.3-4)
Interpreting the bible accurately
JWs condemn the Catholic Church as arrogant for saying only the Catholic Church can accurately interpret the bible. (The Watchtower, 7/1/1943, p. 201.)
But JWs brag that the Watchtower Society is the only one that can accurately interpret the Bible. (The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981; The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587)
Pedophiles
JWs condemned the Catholic Church for decades for not owning up to their pedophile problems. (Any Watching The World in the 80 & 90.
But the JWs have never apologized for their pedophile problems. (The Catholics DID apologize!)
Apostate Literature
JWs condemn the Catholic Church for not allowing their followers to read or study with JWs. (Year Book 1988 p.100 Ireland)
But JWs are instructed to promptly throw away any literature from other apostate religions. (Watchtower 1986 March 15 pp.15-20 Allow No Place for the Devil!)
New Light
JWs condemn the Catholic Church' s new light doctrine, saying it makes the Catholic Church unreliable. (g70 4/22 p. 8 Changes That Disturb People)
But JWs excuse for all their false prophecies and flip-flops is new light.
Bangalore
 
steve2
steve2 5 years ago

Bangalore - the font size is way too small to read in places. I need a magnifying glass!
 
Amelia Ashton
Amelia Ashton 5 years ago

I love posts like this pointing out the double standards and hypocracy of JWdom especially when it is their own literature that condemns them.
Thankyou
 
sizemik
sizemik 5 years ago

Thank you for keeping it brief Bangalore . . . seriously . . . you could have gone several pages recounting the duplicity of the WTS
 
blondie
blondie 5 years ago

Having It Both Ways As A Jehovah's Witness.
Source : thejehovahswitnesses.com (site no longer exists)
Increase in JWs evidence of divine blessing
When people are joining the JWs in large numbers, they say it is evidence of Jehovah's blessing. (Watchtower July 1, 2002, p.13, paragraph 17-19)
But when the numbers are down they claim it's because “the greater number has cooled off.
JWs can take blood, but can ' t donate any blood
JWs are allowed to take every single component of blood (including the ones that transmit diseases) from other people and the general blood supply.
But JWs are NOT allowed to donate any blood back to the very system they take blood from!
Kids dying from no blood
They brag about how many JW kids face death because of their stance on blood, including putting the kid's pictures on the cover of the Awake magazine. (Awake! 1994 May 22 p.2 Youths Who Put God First 3-15)
But JWs say Satan is persecuting them when they are labeled as child killers. (Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.14 par. 4 Defending Our Faith)
Strong Families
If someone wants to leave the JWs (like me), they are labeled as apostates and shunned - even by family members.(Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.17 Defending Our Faith)
But JWs say Satan is persecuting them when they are labeled as a religion that breaks up families.(Kingdom Ministry August 2002 pp.3-4)
Interpreting the bible accurately
JWs condemn the Catholic Church as arrogant for saying only the Catholic Church can accurately interpret the bible. (The Watchtower, 7/1/1943, p. 201.)
But JWs brag that the Watchtower Society is the only one that can accurately interpret the Bible. (The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981; The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587)
Pedophiles
JWs condemned the Catholic Church for decades for not owning up to their pedophile problems. (Any Watching The World in the 80 & 90.
But the JWs have never apologized for their pedophile problems. (The Catholics DID apologize!)
Apostate Literature
JWs condemn the Catholic Church for not allowing their followers to read or study with JWs. (Year Book 1988 p.100 Ireland)
But JWs are instructed to promptly throw away any literature from other apostate religions. (Watchtower 1986 March 15 pp.15-20 Allow No Place for the Devil!)
New Light
JWs condemn the Catholic Church's new light doctrine, saying it makes the Catholic Church unreliable. (g70 4/22 p. 8 Changes That Disturb People)
But JWs excuse for all their false prophecies and flip-flops is new light.
Bangalore
 
scary21
scary21 5 years ago

Condemn the cathlics for baptiziing babys, but it's ok to baptize six year olds. If when you grow up and leave the Cathlic church, you will not be shunned. If you leave the JW, you WILL be shunned and lose your family. You tell me, which one is worse????????
 
steve2
steve2 5 years ago

The influence the Pope holds over Catholics is scarily similar to the influence the GB holds over JWs. Little wonder the JWs hold a special in their bullseye devoted to Catholics.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 5 years ago

Catholics only have to kiss the Pope's RING.........
 

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RC Church - Originated when ? Spiritually Strong Ones please.
by *lost* 3 years ago 52 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower bible
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*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

Been doing a bit of research trying to tie in together a few different strands.
Not too sure what happened to Christianity and how organised religion took hold again after the Apostles died off.
I know Jerusalem was sacked 70 ce. But lots to fill in from that point onwards to bring us to where we are today.
If a few peeps could help to condense and simplify the info down into a few bite size pieces it would give us a starting point to begin to re-educate ourselves to the truth. and fill in the blanks.

I found a site 'Relligion Facts.com' which states the following.
For the first 1,000 yrs there was no 'Roman Catholicism' as we know it today.Simply because there were no EASTERN ORTHODOX or PROTESTANTISM to distinguish it.
There was only the 'one, holy, catholic church' affirmed by the early creeds, which was the body of christian believers all over the world, untied by common traditions, beliefs, church structure and worship.
CATHOLIC - means simply, UNIVERSAL.
Thus throughout the middle ages, if you were a christian you belonged to the catholic church.
Any christianity, other than the catholic church was - A HERESY. Not a denomination.
The catholic church continues to maintain that it alone has carried on the true tradition of the apostolic church.
318 - conversion of Roman Emperor Constantine.
1440 - 461 - Roman Bishop Leo, was the first to claim ultimate authority over all of christendom.
452 - saved Rome from attila the Hun.
455 - Vandal invaders, plundered the city.

5 centuries were dominated by the struggle between C Church and Islam.
Middle ages - 5th Century ce to 15th century ce. ( the first part of the middle ages is also know as the Dark Ages.)
Dark Ages - an era of IGNORANCE, SUPERSTITION OR SOCIAL CHAOS OR REPRESSION.
1095 - crusades.
1347 - 1350- the late middle ages. were marked by difficulties and clamitites. Famine. Plague. War. the black death.

17th and 18th centuries - The times of enlightenment. many critical thinkers saw religion as antithetical to reason. Voltaire, among others were vocal in attacking the religiously dominated middle ages as a period of social regress.
1517 - Martin Luther.
King Henry 8th - Reformation.
1700's - Worship Of Mary introduced.
The Enlightenment - questioned christianity as a whole. It elevated human reason above divine revelation and down-graded religious authorities such as the papacy based on it.

1700's - French revolution - saw direct attacks on the wealth of the Church.
1870 - 1940 - Third Republic. the republicans detested the Church for its political and class affiliations
 
cantleave
cantleave 3 years ago

What do mean spirtually strong ones? What a stupid thing to write in your title? Do you actually mean "Those that are most deluded please"?
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 years ago

I am spiritually strong, I am virtually pickled in scotch !
you need to look up,on Wiki is a good start, Calcedonian Christianity and see when the "split" with oriental Orthodoxy started, and then look at the Great Schism etc
It seems that in reality there never was one unified Christian church, right from the start Pauline Christology was at odds with extant Christology and the fights continued, right down to our day.
The Roman Church was given authority at Chalcedon, but not without dissent. Before the 5th century it was a mess, many different sects, declared "Heretical" by the Big Boys may for all we know have been closer to the 1st Century church.
The 1st Century church, as I said above, had its divisions and arguments, and was anyway only the progenetor of the Myth and cult of Jesus.
 
unstopableravens
unstopableravens 3 years ago

cant leave thats unlike to say something negative about us who hold differnet opinions,
 
Terry
Terry 3 years ago

Words can trip us up.
Where we stand in time and which direction we look can fool us.

For instance, was Judaism a formal religion that you joined or were kicked out of?
How would Jesus have responded to the question: "What religion are you?"
Did such a question have any meaning at all for people in the 1st century?

A church cannot be universal because we cannot travel past our own solar system.
Ideas and stories spread by people telling about them and other people listen. But, how a person hears/understands is a separate feature of transmission.
Everybody who calls themselves "christian"--if you examine their thinking--believes in a DIFFERENT idea.
That is because people, although human, are not clones.

The idea of a "church" is something today it was never thought of two thousand and umpity ump years ago.
There were people who believed in certain ideas and tried to conform to the morality of them. While, at the same moment, somebody sitting
in the same room with them had different ideas and might mightily disagree with the first guy.

When Jesus was with his disciples there was a lot of confusion, misunderstood communication and awkward bickering.
Jesus spoke a parable about wheat and weeds in which he indicated you couldn't tell them apart and should NOT TRY to separate them out!
You might just get rid of wheat while trying to excise the weeds!
But, men are faulty even with the best of intentions.

The Catholic Church became (that indicates a slow process) something and continues to become something and can only be said TO BE something
from moment to moment. Which is to say it didn't ORIGINATE so much as it coalesced.

In our vocabulary and grammer a word REPRESENTS meaning without itself BEING a meaning.
As a majority of writers and speakers change what that word intends to express.....the dictionary eventually changes to INCLUDE the new use. When the old use dies out the new use BECOMES the meaning, but--importantly--it is still the SAME WORD.
So too with the Catholic Church.
 
sir82
sir82 3 years ago


There was only the 'one, holy, catholic church' affirmed by the early creeds,

which was the body of christian believers all over the world, untied by common

traditions, beliefs, church structure and worship.

A common misconception by Catholic apologists, but absolutely false and easily disproven.
There were numerous branches of Christianity within just a few decades of the time generally given for Jesus' death.
A good place to start would be the book "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman.
20 minutes on Wikipedia would also be a start if you have even less time.
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 3 years ago

I take it from the title that any links to information however useful but provided by atheists or agnostics will be ignored. Nothing like keeping an open mind is there?
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

The more you learn about TTATT. The less you will use WTBT$ terms like, " spiritually strong." It insults people.
Quick story, I knew a man who was not a JW, but most of his family was. A jw referred to him as an " un-believer." He became irritated. He said, " I am not a JW, but don't call me an un-believer, because you don't know what I believe." I was told once that I was being disciplined by the Elders to help me " spiritually progress." What they really meant was I was getting disciplined to teach me to blindly follow whatever the Watchtower magazine says without question. So their very words were condemning me as a spiritually weak person who could not make progress. Just sayin'.

Peace, DD
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 3 years ago

DATA-DOG said: The more you learn about TTATT. The less you will use WTBT$ terms like, " spiritually strong." It insults people.

ADCMS: I'm with you on this one.
Further, my next question to anyone who says this would be: spiritually strong compared to what? How specifically does "spiritual strength" qualify a person as an authority on religious history? Or any other subject for that matter?

This topic could very well have been titled, "The earth: a sphere? Or is it flat? Spiritually strong ones please".

Labels negate people. It's too bad some don't realize that.
 
GromitSK
GromitSK 3 years ago

Whats the SI unit of spiritual strength?
 
cantleave
cantleave 3 years ago

Whats the SI unit of spiritual strength?
It's the Rm (Russel Metre)
 
GromitSK
GromitSK 3 years ago

Maybe it's the ohmmygod
 
Newly Enlightened
Newly Enlightened 3 years ago

Not many people realize this, but when the Romans devastated Jerusalem, the Pharisees fled to ROME and set up their religion there and guess what it became?
Yep the RC church.
And Babylon the Great has been running rampant ever since. We're watching the documentary "Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings" You want to talk about enlightening. It's funny that most of the main religions in the world today, except the CC, Protestants etc, were all STARTED HERE IN THE U.S.A. [Mormon's, JW's, Etc]
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 years ago

How many Pyramid inches in a Rm ?
 
Lozhasleft
Lozhasleft 3 years ago

Don't worry about critics Lost, some are still 'believers' here some are not. Some get a bit upset about the old WT terms. Nothing personal to you. Check your PMs?
Loz x
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 3 years ago

Spiritual strength is measured on the Bollocks Index with each .1 is 10x stronger than the previous, so a BI of 5.1 is 10x stronger than a BI of 5.0. A BI value of 5.5 is 100,000 x stronger than a BI of 5.0
Typical values are:
Atheism: 0.1 - 0.5
Fundamentalist: 3.0 - 5.9
Batshit crazies: 6.0 - 10+
As can be seen on the index, the more spiritual you are the more bollocks you talk.
 
sir82
sir82 3 years ago


It's funny that most of the main religions in the world today, except the CC, Protestants etc, were all STARTED HERE IN THE U.S.A.

Cool!
I never knew that Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Animists, B'Hais, Sikhs, Jains, Judaism, etc. all got started in the USA!
You should write a book - you'll get a Nobel prize for sure. No one else is aware of this.
 
Larsinger58
Larsinger58 3 years ago

Obviously, there can be many interpretations, so I will give you a concise look at two events that are Biblically significant within the JWO.
First, as far as the witnesses go, their date for the 2nd coming in 1874 was based on the fulfillment of the "1335 days" which date back to 539 AD. A quick Google search brought up: "539 A.D. - Thought to be the start of Catholic Papal rule and the start point of many prophetic interpretations." So 539 AD in relation to the RCC is a date that needs to be in the list of dates.
From another spiritual point of view, the interpretation of the "2300 evenings and mornings" shows that there would be no public temple recognized for 1150 years. Each "evening and morning" becomes a full day and thus represents 1150 years into the final 1260 days of apostasy ending in 1996, which is based on 36 CE. At any rate that means that the first 1150 years there would be no temple in its right condition, but for the remaining 110 years there would be one recognized public temple sect, which were the Bible Students who later became known as Jehovah's witnesses. The final 110 years (out of the 1260 years ending in 1996) began in 1886 which was when the first "Studies in the Scriptures" was published, a series of volumes that became the core doctrinal works of the new sect. But all that to say this, the 1260 years ending in 1996 would point to 736 AD as a significant year of apostasy within the RCC. It was around this time that the pagan Easter Celebration finally took hold over all of the various factions of the Catholic Church, obliterating the annual Lord's Supper. But when the Bible Students came along, they did not celebrate Easter and began to celebrate the Lord's Supper annually as had been set up by Christ. So they became the "temple in its right condition" for the next 110 years until 1996. Now they are apostate themselves. Anyway, 736 AD would be a significant date in the history of the RCC as an "apostasy date" since it begins the apostasy of the "time, times and half time" which is 1260 days = 1260 years ending in 1996.
Finally, 1506 is another date to stick a pin in. 36 CE ends the 70 weeks of the 1st coming from 455 BCE to 36 CE. The 2nd coming also fulfills "70 weeks" and when we count down to our time, the 70th week of the 2nd coming is from 1989-1996. That is, 4 x 490 = 1960 + 36CE = 1996. But the final 70 weeks begin in 1506 AD. This was about the time that Martin Luther became a monk. So the beginning of Protestantism is Biblically significant and it essentially predicts that the true temple, the Bible Students, would come out of Protestantism. Thus Protestantism is seen as a movement away from the apostasy of the Catholic Church, which is totally corrupted by paganism and idolatry. The RCC worship Mary as a substitute for pagan's Mother Goddess. The Easter Sunday celebration celebrates Ishtar, etc.
So it really just depends. There are other dates of significance linked to certain events, but these three would be the most critical to consider as far as the WTS and chronology from the Bible is concerned.
Hope that wasn't too long winded!
 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

If you understand the MEANING of the word, then you will KNOW what I mean by it. That is why it is there, for the people who understand it. like minded to feel an interest to give their info on what they have learned to build the picture. If it was Artificial Horse breeding and you knew nothing about it - or didn't care about it, uninterested. Then it would be highly unlikely you would be interested in contributing to the thread.
It seems some of you have taken offense to a word.
clearly some of you are very vocal and quite rude about it. Why not have some manners and be nice about it ? Just say, ya know, I'm not very comfortable with your wording, or your culture. ??? Why not be nice about it ???
Are some of you not nice people ??? Really ??? You think it's ok to attack someone because YOU DON'T LIKE A WORD ????

And your all on here bitching about the jws.???????//

And for your information, the wt didn't control my mind and turn it to mush. I understood spiritual long before jws. I was raised Catholic. Jw not the only religion in the world.

Alright if you don't believe you don't believ. do what you want its your life.
What gives you the right to jump on and bash BELLIEVERS ????
Would you do the same to another nationality, sexual orientation, other beliefs ???? So why do you think it's ok to do it to other people.

Your responsible for your own lives, happiness and thoughts. NOT ME or anyone else. Get some good therapy.

I see people whingeing in here about their family and kids. I CARE about others as I know the pain of their suffering. I DON'T JUDGE.
I don't say mean things to any of you.
I don't say - you pussies man up. Its your families your kids, you have the power, cos I tell you I would die for my people, and do ANYTHING I could to stand up and fight.

SO DONT YOU ALL BE JUDGINNG ME AND GETTING ON ME COS YOUR OFFENDED. BY A WORD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIKE EMINEM SAID ''' DON'T JUDGE ME ... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE F**K I BEEN THROUGH. Stop judging people, leave your former religion.... ooops cult teachings behind.
 
villagegirl
villagegirl 3 years ago

Lost: I am sending you a message in your mail
 

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RC Church - Originated when ? Spiritually Strong Ones please.
by *lost* 3 years ago 52 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower bible
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Hortensia
Hortensia 3 years ago

Well, I think people who commented about your title weren't being rude. Your little hissy fit in your last post is more rude than the gentle way others pointed out that the term "spiritual" implies something negative about people who don't necessarily agree with you. And, anyway, spiritual or not, anyone could have a better knowledge of religious history than you seem to have.
By the way, some funny posts here! And thanks for the recommendation of Lost Christianities. I'm going to go look that up.
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 3 years ago


Lars,
you state : "It was around this time that the pagan Easter Celebration finally took hold over all of the various factions of the Catholic Church, obliterating the annual Lord's Supper"
Um The RC Church considers Holy Thursday of extremely high iportance. It is te observance of the last supper, the passover whenre Jesus offers himself as the sacrificial lamb.
"Except for the resurrection on Easter, Holy Thursday is possibly one of the most important, complex, and profound days of celebration in the Catholic Church." - CNA
However, Holy Thursday ( part of an entire week of observances) has not been secularized with the Easter Bunny etc., so you must have missed that one.

 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

The Roman Catholic Church - where it sprang from. the first thousand years are obscure and hard to nail down. It became labelled as the 'universal' Church in that day as it was so powerful and spread over the world. It took a mighty blow at the reformation due to Henry the 8th. I guess the history of the other churches/xtians etc of that day will give more of a picture.
Hortensai - I didn't have a ''hissy fit''. lol, thats is NOT a hissy fit. That is stating facts.
It has nothing to do with ''agreeing'' with me. I think you will find they didn't offer any information on the topic whatsoever, but got tied up in knots about the use of a word.
''Negative'' word - says who. To who. It's not negative to me. It's not negative to other Christians. are we like radical Islamists now. Have to watch everyword ???
Remove the rafter be dammed. Laughing here.

And as for your little dig there Hortensia - that anyone could have a better knowledge of religious history me. How derogative of you, pretentious and high minded. Was that your good jw training were you one of the select few, the slave masters ? look down your nose at everyone else as you are so much better than them because you have the special religion, the 'troof' and superior knowledge of what is written in the Bible cos you were brainwashed into being memory robots.
Please.
Read back to yourself what you are saying, and look in the mirror yeah ???

NE
Loz I'm truly not bothered. Either they know or they don't. It's up to them to live their own lives and do what they want. after all isn't that what humans rights and freedom mean. I guess europe is a little bit more 'liberal'. We don't think we're better than everyone else.
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 3 years ago

I have been doing some very interesting studies about the origions of the early churches. I read of Paulenes of the eastern orthodox Churchs, and the origional Coptic Christians in Egypt and Jordan. Also the Western Church which was eventually was the Roman Church. All catholic as in the "universal sense" as well as Catholic in the Church beliefs. They did have some differences, and these did cause many dissents over the centuries. It is facinating to try to learn and distinguish all these differences, why there were differences and what they were about.
I found the JW beliefs are aryan, which in the early centuries were considered heritic becaue they did not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Then th great reformation which came about with the former Catholic Martian Luther and it was boiling down to salvation by faith lone ( Luthers belief) , vs salvation by works along with faith, from which prodtestantism found its birth.
I am only just beginning these studies, so I have a lot to learn but it is facinating.
 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

NONJWSPOUSE
thank you. that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
I'm giving serious consideration to the fact a lot of relevent books were purposefully omitted for ulterior motives, a reason. But as with most jw's being ignorant to all this other information about the subject out there , due to spiritual knowledge of anything other than wt was banned.
Therre is a big hole. A massive gap. Something is missing/concealed.

I too find it all fascinating.
reagrds
lost
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

I found this link, which gives you a rough outline:
From Jesus to Constantine: 30--313. I don't trust the links on this site. One I tried sent me to a stupid ad. But it is a nice outline of what the early church was like.
Constantine (Roman Emperor) converted to Christianity and convened a council to standardize Christian beliefs. One of the standard documents that came out of this was the Nicene Creed. I would say the convening of the Nicene council was the start of the Catholic church as we know today.
One could argue that the Eastern Orthodox ( East-West Schism , 1053) have a stronger claim to provenance than the Roman Catholic Church.
 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

Jnat - thanks. yes I have heard of the nicene creed before. i will remember to research it too.
thanks for your links.
much appreciated.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 years ago

Just a little off topic "aside" , the Great Schism, which caused the rift that exists down till today between the western and eastern churches was about the word "and" !!!! i.e does the Holy Ghost proceed from the Father "and" the Son, or from the Father alone.
It kind of underlines how very silly the whole thing is, especially when all religions are founded on Myth and maintained by a combination of lies and superstition.
 
soontobe
soontobe 3 years ago

RC Church - Originated when ? Spiritually Strong Ones please.
If we mean "small c" catholic, well that was started by Jesus. That's the universal Church (which is what catholic means), which is composed of particular churches, which includes the Roman church.
If we mean the Roman church specifically, that was started when Peter went there.
Other apostles founded churches in other places. Some of them are in communion with Rome, and are Catholic, although not Roman.
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 3 years ago

Back on topic.
Lost, to get an idea of how old the RC church is, look at their lineage of popes. I think many would be surprised.
My JW boyfriend looked like he was having a panic attack when I showed him. I led into with, "isn't it cool that there have already been at least 3 popes from Africa already?"
I had never gotten dumped off at home so fast in my life fastest trip home.
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 3 years ago

Oh yeah.... see what you can learn about the apocrypha too. RC church may have notes on the Council of Nicea.
Where did Russell get HIS early century info from??
Don't mean to be condescending, but I'd have to put my trust dibs on the Catholic church on historical data.... not some dude walking along the Allegheny River making crap up.
sorry about typos. on phone... very hard to edit.
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

An interesting website I came across
http://www.bible.ca/history/eubanks/
 
frankiespeakin
frankiespeakin 3 years ago

Soon,
If we mean the Roman church specifically, that was started when Peter went there.
That sounds quite like Abel was the first Jehovah's Witness type of logic.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

I hope you find my contribution balanced and helpful. I admit that I get my back up when I hear the expression "spiritually strong". I have a background with evangelical people, and some of the zealous ones won't even have a conversation with another person until they find out if they are "saved" or not. It's "saved" according to what they believe. Who are they, as fellow human beings, to decide who is spiritually qualified or not?
Now I have a JW husband who thinks I am not spiritual enough because I don't read the Watchtower and I don't go out in to field service. Is it no less a Christian example to model strength and kindness to others?
 
soontobe
soontobe 3 years ago

That sounds quite like Abel was the first Jehovah's Witness type of logic.
Really? Then to whom was this letter addressed to (Paul's Epistle to the Romans)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Romans
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

Sorry Lost, I was typing while multi-tasking at work. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I meant no offense to you. Somedays I am a b-otch about WT stuff. Tonight is " Family Worship " night and I don't even want to go home.  I get what you are saying and I apologize.

Peace,
DD
 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

DDog ??? lol. No worries. Relax. i know how draining it must be for you. I am so grateful for my strong will and mind, They never got to nail me down like a lotta folks here. I feel for you all. Really.
Soon to be - Did Peter actually go to rome ? I mean are you sure, cos I didn' think he did, I would like to know if I have it wrong. thanks.

jgnat. I get what your saying. And I could totally u nderstand and respect someones reasoning on it, but they could do it in a more civilised way. lo. I'm not too stressed about it, but I am not the kind of person who intends to upset people then give them the finger. i don't name call.
Re your fella. Or any other witness for that matter. give them a challenge. make them sit down with a pen and pad. Tell them they have to make written notes for you to see from them. And google meaning of spirituality. Wiki. They will be very surprised and you can prove to your hubby you are in fact very spiritual, maybe more so than him. lol. You will see.

Supersessionism - do the same with this one. Make them think.

Thanks everyone for your help and info you have given.

And I do truly opologise if i un-intentionally offended anyone, I would never wish to do so. But really, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I would advise you research the meaning of the word. and see what it actually means. Not what wt pontificates.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

For *lost*
http://www.matthieuricard.org/en/index.php/gallery/
 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

jgnat  very nice .. thanks.
I really appreciate 'foreign' cultures. to be fair I think Anglo-American Westerners have no culture. Nothing to equate with the ancients. The core beliefs and attitudes are the same. The ''true works''. Whatever religious demonination isn't relevant. What is relevant is the individual person and their works.
WT /jws specificaly are the shame of the human race. When do they ever do any ''good works'' humanitarian works. what do any of them do for other people ? on the whole. Yes there are some good individuals who are to be praised. Just like every other religion/type.
I see muslims who aren't 'proper' they don't live the proper life.
People are too focused on words and labels and not the meaning.
White western men were labelled the 'devils' and hated the world over for the things they inflicted in their dominion of other races. History is fact.
The ancient cultures are fascinating.
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 3 years ago

Another interesting topic is the fact there are more popes than just the Roman Catholic, and the Pope of the current Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis, is of the eastern rite of Catholics.
I read up some on Pope Alexander I believe a Coptic Christian from Alexandria, who was in charge of the Council of Nicea. ( BTW I misspelled ayran, it was not that spelling and a different meaning...I meant arian.) and Pope alaxander dealt with this topic of the differences of the natures of the Trinity, and the problem of Arius, at this council.
 

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Topic Summary
been doing a bit of research trying to tie in together a few different strands.. not too sure what happened to christianity and how organised religion took hold again after the apostles died off.. i know jerusalem was sacked 70 ce.
but lots to fill in from that point onwards to bring us to where we are today.. if a few peeps could help to condense and simplify the info down into a few bite size pieces it would give us a starting point to begin to re-educate ourselves to the truth.
and fill in the blanks.



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RC Church - Originated when ? Spiritually Strong Ones please.
by *lost* 3 years ago 52 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower bible
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jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

*lost*, of course we have a rich and interesting culture. You don't notice because you are swimming in it. Think a thousand years in the future. They'll think we are exotic!
 
kassad84
kassad84 3 years ago


 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

@LOST
Using "spiritual" implied language (spiritual strong) is less tolerated than the "F" word on this site.
 
Pterist
Pterist 3 years ago

The apostle Paul never used the word "Christian" or "Christian Church" in any of his letters. Paul envisioned a fulfillment of the Israel of God Romans 11. The term "universal church" was adapted to unite the diverse "Christian World" in a "marriage" of church and state for political gain under Constantine.
Shalom friend :wink:
 
kassad84
kassad84 3 years ago

O, Constantine. in this sign you will conquer murder
 
Larsinger58
Larsinger58 3 years ago

NONJWSPOUSE:

Lars,
you state : "It was around this time that the pagan Easter Celebration finally took hold over all of the various factions of the Catholic Church, obliterating the annual Lord's Supper"
Um The RC Church considers Holy Thursday of extremely high iportance. It is te observance of the last supper, the passover whenre Jesus offers himself as the sacrificial lamb.
"Except for the resurrection on Easter, Holy Thursday is possibly one of the most important, complex, and profound days of celebration in the Catholic Church." - CNA
However, Holy Thursday ( part of an entire week of observances) has not been secularized with the Easter Bunny etc., so you must have missed that one....

LARS:
Um, okay. Basically, this is a reference from Venerable Bede who spoke of various factions of the Catholic Church doing their own thing as far as Easter Sunday and passover. It's common knowledge generally, that the church wanted to distance itself from Judaism and in particular passover. So by 736 AD apparently the RCC had unified all the various factions in regards to the Easter Sunday celebration, which was an effort to emphasize Sunday and get away from the Jewish sabbath, etc.
But regardless, 736 BCE would be the date the 1260 years of apostasy begins... regardless. That is just what was going on. And now, JWs celebrate the Lord's Supper like no one else I really know of. Most of Christendom's churches have the sacraments every week. The Lord's supper is a form of "gift and sacrifice" and the "constant feature" so is critical to the recognized temple sect, who became JWs.
Right now, just in casual observation, Easter Sunday is the big deal for Catholics and Protestants alike. I don't see them genuflecting over when Passover is, like the WTS, so...
In addition, just for the record, Jews know that the Seder is always eaten on the first day of unfermented cakes, a special sabbath day, the day that the Israelites left Egypt. So they are likely laughing at Christians who don't seem to understand that. That is, if the Israelites left Egypt the same night they ate passover, and that was made a national holiday, a special sabbath, the 1st day of UFC, then Jesus must have been arrested on a national holiday! That means he could not have died that same day he ate the passover meal. I mean, how f***ging stupid can you get? !! Jesus must die THREE NIGHTS from Saturday night. That's THURSDAY! Period.
What I see now is that regardless of when "passover" falls, Easter Sunday is the big deal of the day. The RCC and most of Christendom follow this worship of Ishtar, but the WTS does not. They focus on passover, whenever it falls. They fulfill the "temple in its right condition"after the 2300 evenings and mornings from 1886-1996.
"Interpretation belongs to God." We'll see who "missed this one" -- me or YOU.
Thanks for the feedback!
 
Larsinger58
Larsinger58 3 years ago

In Revelation, the 666-beast that comes out of the "sea" represents Christendom. The "666" represents their belief in the trinity doctrine. You know, three gods but one god is the same as three numbers but one number.
 
*lost*
*lost* 3 years ago

Pterist .. thanks. I FOR ONE DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE ''F'' WORD.
Neither do I have a problem with anyother kinds of words/language people use unless they are along the lines of racist and clearly derogative. Those kinds of people, I CHOOSE to have little to do with. I CHOOSE not to be affected by their mentality. I CHOOSE to follow my own path. I CHOOSE not to blame others. I CHOOSE to live my own life. I CHOOSE to enrich it with the things I like. I CHOOSE to search for truth 'whatever that means these days'
Truth, honesty, integrity, moral fibre etc... whatever names you want to use to describe it. Well they are all pretty much thin on the ground in the world.
Some of us were born into 'THE REAL WORLD' AND HAVE HAD TO GROW UP IN THE REAL WORLD, and have had to deal with all the challenges that come with 'LIVING' IN THE REAL WORLD.
Should I not use the word 'WORLD' in case some ex-jw gets offended as they use the word to signify something else, to enforce their mind control over people.
We 'FROM THE WORLD - AND LIVING IN THE WORLD - some of us use this terminology all the time. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.
It does however have everything TO DO WITH CONTROL. it's all about control.
And nobody is going to control me, my mind, my life, my kids. Some people in this world are still connected to 'THEIR ROOTS' their histroy, their tribal origins, their ancestors., who have lived through and dealt with some pretty nasty things. Their survival. It's not a disney movie.
SOME PEOPLE STILL KNOW WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS TO 'FIGHT FOR FREEDOM' and are not afraid to go to battle.
The saying is '' take your position on the front line'' man up, put up or shut the F**k up and go away. ( not intended to anyone here personally, it is just a cultural saying/statement.
Some people in this world are actually faced with life and death situations, life on the line.
Not everyone has spent their entire lives trapped in an alternative reality, where all they ever did was read one set of literature, knock on doors and only associate with their 'chosen class'.
Jws don't have the world monopoly on abuse, pain and suffering. it's a big world out there.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

You go girl. Keep learning.
 
snare&racket
snare&racket 3 years ago

Go get this book, every christian should own and read it....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499




The early Christian Church was a chaos of contending beliefs. Some groups of Christians claimed that there was not one God but two or twelve or thirty. Some believed that the world had not been created by God but by a lesser, ignorant deity. Certain sects maintained that Jesus was human but not divine, while others said he was divine but not human.
In Lost Christianities, Bart D. Ehrman offers a fascinating look at these early forms of Christianity and shows how they came to be suppressed, reformed, or forgotten. All of these groups insisted that they upheld the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, and they all possessed writings that bore out their claims, books reputedly produced by Jesus's own followers. Modern archaeological work has recovered a number of key texts, and as Ehrman shows, these spectacular discoveries reveal religious diversity that says much about the ways in which history gets written by the winners. Ehrman's discussion ranges from considerations of various "lost scriptures"--including forged gospels supposedly written by Simon Peter, Jesus's closest disciple, and Judas Thomas, Jesus's alleged twin brother--to the disparate beliefs of such groups as the Jewish-Christian Ebionites, the anti-Jewish Marcionites, and various "Gnostic" sects. Ehrman examines in depth the battles that raged between "proto-orthodox Christians"-- those who eventually compiled the canonical books of the New Testament and standardized Christian belief--and the groups they denounced as heretics and ultimately overcame.
Scrupulously researched and lucidly written, Lost Christianities is an eye-opening account of politics, power, and the clash of ideas among Christians in the decades before one group came to see its views prevail.
 
mP
mP 3 years ago

The Roman Catholic CHurch existed before Jesus. Julius Caesar was a Pontifus Maximus aka the Pope. The RCC simply adopted yet another God, aka Jesus along with its many others. All cultures understood that they were not different but simply localised forms of the same gods as their neighbours. Jupiter or Sky father (Piter means father etc) is the same as Zeus etc.
 
mP
mP 3 years ago

Pterist

The apostle Paul never used the word "Christian" or "Christian Church" in any of his letters. Paul envisioned a fulfillment of the Israel of God Romans 11. The term "universal church" was adapted to unite the diverse "Christian World" in a "marriage" of church and state for political gain under Constantine.
Shalom friend :wink:
mP:
And the Apostle Paul didnt state a single fact about Jesus either except for the death bit. No apostles, bethlehem, pontus pilate, Mary and so on, none of those names or places is mentioned in once in any of this writings.
 
mP
mP 3 years ago

Lars
In Revelation, the 666-beast tha

MP:
Lars why do you deny that 666 simply spells out Nero Caesar ? Revelation is not prophecy the author is writing about that nice despot Nero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast

Certain scholarship has identified [citation needed] the number as having symbolic correlation to the Emperor Nero , whose Greek name transliterated into Hebrew has the numeric value of 666, whereas his Latin name writ into Hebrew is 616. [4] In Revelation's narrative, the "mark of the beast" is used to identify the beast's acolytes. Revelation 13:17 states that the mark is "the name of the beast or the number of his name". Because of this, it is widely thought among dispensationalists that the mark will take the form of a number or symbol

...

Neron Caesar
  Bust of Nero at Musei Capitolini, Rome
It is widely accepted by many scholars that Roman Emperor Nero (ruling 54–68) is the first Beast of Revelation 13. This interpretation was received by enumerating his name and title Neron Caesar [27] to the Number of the Beast. [4] [28] [29] An Aramaic scroll from Murabba'at, dated to "the second year of Emperor Nero", refers to him by his name and title [30] where in Hebrew it is Nron Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaisar"), and in Latin it is Nro Qsr(pronounced "Nero Kaisar"). [31]
Nron Qsr
The Greek version of the name and title transliterates into Hebrew as ???? ??? , and yields a numerical value of 666: [4] [30]
Resh (?) Samekh (?) Qoph (?) Nun (?) Vav (?) Resh (?) Nun (?) Sum
200 60 100 50 6 200 50 666
Nro Qsr
The Latin version of the name drops the second Nun (?), so that it appears as Nro and transliterates into Hebrew as ??? ??? , yielding 616: [4]
Resh (?) Samekh (?) Qoph (?) Vav (?) Resh (?) Nun (?) Sum
200 60 100 6 200 50 616

 

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Topic Summary
been doing a bit of research trying to tie in together a few different strands.. not too sure what happened to christianity and how organised religion took hold again after the apostles died off.. i know jerusalem was sacked 70 ce.
but lots to fill in from that point onwards to bring us to where we are today.. if a few peeps could help to condense and simplify the info down into a few bite size pieces it would give us a starting point to begin to re-educate ourselves to the truth.
and fill in the blanks.



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INTOLERANCE
by EdenOne 3 years ago 8 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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EdenOne
EdenOne 3 years ago

“JEHOVAH made man a free agent, holding him responsible for his intelligent acts. Jehovah never prevents man from expressing his mind. Intolerance does not at all apply to Jehovah and those who faithfully obey him.” - Intolerance, by J. F. Rutherford, 1933, page 3
According to “Judge” Rutherford, intolerance has no place among the faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses, because Jehovah God himself, isn’t intolerant. According to Rutherford, who is the paradigm of intolerance? The same booklet explains: “The Catholic hierarchy has been and is the most intolerant organization on earth. Falsely claiming that the pope is the one endowed with authority to interpret the Scriptures, the Catholic hierarchy has kept the people in ignorance of the Bible and influenced them not to read it, and induced them to believe only what the Catholic hierarchy has taught.”
Therefore, in the words of the very leader of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “intolerance” is defined by:
1.One entity being endowed with exclusive authority to interpret the Scriptures;
2.Based on that exclusive authority, only those teachings emanating from that leadership and its hierarchy can be believed;
3.Keeping the low rank members ignorant of the source of such teachings.
Interestingly, 80 years have past over this drivel, and the Watchtower Society has become everything they have accused the “catholic hierarchy” of, in terms of “intolerance”.
1.The ‘Governing Body’ of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, currently composed of 8 members, has self-appointed itself with exclusive authority to interpret the Scriptures;
2.Based on that exclusive authority, only the teachings emanated from the Governing Body and its approved hierarchy - namely, the Writing Comittee - can be believed;
3.Keeping the low rank members ignorant, either by bullying them to desist from scholarly education, discouraging them to seek information outside the Watchtower literature, misquoting scholars, revisioning and embellishing its own history, ignoring and downplaying doctrinal contradictions, and persecuting and evicting those who express doubts or dissenting opinions.
If, as Rutherford claimed, “Jehovah never prevents man from expressing his mind”, than means that Jehovah gives man the freedom to express his mind without fear of punishment. Abraham and Lot expressed their thoughts openly to Jehovah and they weren’t punished for thoughts that weren’t exactly the thoughts of Jehovah.
Unfortunately, this isn’t the case within the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Although for sure, if brought before a court or the press, representatives of the Watchtower will claim that there is freedom of thought and liberty of choice among the Witnesses, the truth is that there is no real freedom when your choices and expression are limited by the fear of severe punishment for openly expressing even insignificant dissenting views from the official line. The consequent labelling as “apostate”, with the inevitable disfellowshipping and shunning from the community and family members is the Witness’ worst nightmare, and effectively limits their freedom.
Where, then, is the tolerance?
On the same booklet, (page 4), the second president of the Watchtower Society declared emphatically:
“No organization should be permitted to stand in your way of getting the truth.”
The Jehovah’s Witnesses should heed to the above statement of their leadership. The “organization” - the hierarchical structure of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose leadership is embodied by the collective “Governing Body” should not stand in the way of each individual within its own ranks to search for the religious truth, to read the Bible independently, and to express freely what that individual learns from his study, regardless if the conclusions drawn are consistent with the official doctrine or not.
If the doctrinal assets of the Jehovah’s Witnesses are entirely sound, there should be no issues in allowing individual members to scrutinize them, because the truth is the truth, and cannot be denied. Why, then, is the policy of the ‘organization’ to stand in the way of the individual members of getting the truth, by demonizing scholarly education and implementing policies of thought control within the congregations? Is there something the leadership doesn’t want the rank and file to learn?
In the words of R. G. Ingersoll: “Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim to yourself”
I wish my own religious community would live by these words.
Eden
Edit: Published also on: http://cfjp.weebly.com/intolerance.html
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Yes, an organization that boasts of its unity amongst the "brothers", yet has an unwritten heirarchy. Without prejudice except against anyone not of their club.
 
Larsinger58
Larsinger58 3 years ago

Those on the wrong side of reality are often quite intolerant. These are also insecure. Those who are self-assured and confident in their own beliefs are not afraid to make a "defense for their faith." They don't mind hearing others' viewpoints. They don't call people "crazy" just to avoid a confrontation.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

The JWs are tolerant. When they disfellowship you, you can still come to church.
Seriously, they're currently in lockdown mode. They're getting a lot of heat and retention is a real problem. Instead of increasing toleration, they're reaction is to pull back and close ranks. And the only ones who can reverse this are the elders. They have to put aside these petty battles and concentrate on using wisdom instead of their considerable administrative powers. They sometimes forget that as one judges others, so are they judged. If they are strict disciplinarians, they will find that God will be as exacting in his expectations of them. But if they use wisdom, love and forgiveness, they can expect similar treatment from the Lord.
 
Obadiah
Obadiah 3 years ago

Yes it does seem that the Organization has become exactly what they accused the Catholic Church of. I remember reading an article on one of the magazines in the 50 s about the Catholic Church in Ireland not allowing "Indepent Thinking".
This Organization has become the "Beast"-Org (Borg) . Yes they would deny it in court, but in practice everyone in the KH knows that you don't express your "Own" opinions or do any research outside of the Society's literature if it is to "understand" the truth. Especially if you share it with others...(pretty much why I was tossed out.) The mind has been convinced that you would not be loyal to God if you didn't accept what is coming down the "channel". "What's the matter...not satisfied with what God has provided?" ...how ungrateful.
Well Cold Steel referred to it will...as you judge...so you will be judged. Also with what ever measure you measure out it will be measured out to you.
Thanks for posting this Eden.
Agape, Obadiah.
 
mP
mP 3 years ago

I guess if everyone is equal, can someone explain why there are only whites exccept for the token black on the GB. ALl of them are also men, strange for an organisation mad eup of 50% women, and yetnot a single one is in any position above basic membership.
 
Terry
Terry 3 years ago

I'm flabbergasted that Jehovah could be described as tolerant!
Wuh?
 
Focus
Focus 2 years ago


I wish my own religious community would live by these words.
Great sentiment.
A year has since passed, EdenOne. Let's talk about now.
Which "religious community", if any, would that be, then?
__
Focus
("Follow-up" Class)
 
EdenOne
EdenOne 2 years ago

I feel there is none, unfortunately, Focus. Not the Jehovah's Witnesses, for sure - the one I still call 'mine' for the time being [to be clear about the term "my own"] - not any other I know to exist.
Eden
 

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Jehovah's Witness disfellowshipped for questions, joins Catholic Church to "feel Love"
by Balaamsass2 a year ago 10 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 a year ago

V.K. Harber Become a fan
Yogi, Contemplative, Writer. Producer of radio program Radical Spirituality and Sacred Activism. Spiritual Director of Hab Washington.
A Journey From Unlovable to Beloved: An ex-Jehovah's Witness Reclaims Her Spiritual Heritage
Posted: 09/23/2014 1:07 pm EDT Updated: 09/23/2014 1:59 pm EDT


Yes, it's true. No, I'm not going through an early mid-life crisis. Yes, I've really thought about it. No, my values have not changed. Yes, I'm sure. This is how my end of the conversation goes when I tell my friends that I'm in the process of becoming Catholic.
Their surprise and subsequent questioning must be forgiven. In the time they've known me I've gone from a person who wasn't sure she believed in God, but was damn sure she didn't believe in a patriarchal organized religion of any kind, to an explorer of faiths, a yogi and self-described "spiritual but not religious" admirer of the world's belief systems, to a believer contemplative. But Catholic? Nobody could have seen that coming, least of all me. Until, of course, I did.
I was born to a mother who had left the Catholic Church to become a Jehovah's Witness. By the time I came along, 15 years after my mother's conversion, her fervor for her newfound faith had only grown stronger. Being raised as a JW is many things, but isolating describes it best. Most people know about the social isolation - no birthdays, no holidays, no "worldly" friends - but there is a deeper isolation made worse by the tight-knit nature of the congregation, which on the surface is meant to be about support and brotherhood but which actually serves the purpose of keeping tabs on each other.
Anytime I begin to reminisce about my childhood I am flooded with feelings of shame, guilt, and fear. These three were my constant companions in that controlling and judgmental environment. My innermost thoughts that I dared not speak all boiled down to the same question: why don't I feel what I'm supposed to be feeling? The gap between what I should have been feeling and what I actually felt grew as I trudged through adolescence and young adulthood, hoping and fervently praying to a God I wasn't even sure I believed in to help me believe. Please, make me as devout as my mother. Please let me in on the secret. Help me to feel what they are all feeling.
When, around the age of 20, I began expressing doubts and asking questions, I was swiftly disfellowshipped, which meant no more contact with any of the people who had been my whole life. I felt angry, abandoned, ashamed for letting my mother down, and wholly unlovable.
Feeling unlovable is a terrible feeling for anyone to experience. In our society, though, it is a particularly dangerous feeling for young women who are already conditioned to accept that their worthiness will be judged, at least in part, by their physical appearance and their willingness to conform to socially acceptable behaviors. When you add these societal pressures to the messages I had received about women as a Jehovah's Witness - that we were weak, meant to be in subjection to the men in our lives - it's a miracle my early 20s weren't more disastrous. As it was they were pretty rough in terms of my relationships, but they were also a time of profound change and self-exploration, something I'd never been able to engage in without fear of discovering something unacceptable.
Somehow, despite the effects of social isolation, I managed to make some really genuine friends in the years that followed my disfellowshipping. For the first time in my life I began to experience glimpses of love. Genuine, actual, unconditional love. I began to see a therapist and to slowly, painfully, unpack my childhood. The way I dealt with the "JW thing" as I called it, was to dismiss organized religion entirely and to proclaim that I wasn't sure if I believed in God.
Except, I did. Not the white-bearded man on high of my upbringing, but some thing. The fervent prayers of my childhood -to be made to believe - did not cease when I was no longer in the fold. They were less desperate and more inquisitive, but they were there, coming from some deep part of me I was only beginning to learn to hear. There was an old catholic church around the corner from my apartment in Queens and every couple Saturday evenings, I found myself walking in during evening mass. Within the context of my upbringing, this was a profound act of rebellion. I remember thinking that if my mother ever spoke to me again, I could never tell her. And yet it wasn't rebellion that drew me there. I didn't understand mass but it was beautiful to me. The music, the call and response. I was especially touched by the practice of sharing peace.
When I was 26, I was raped. It very nearly destroyed me but it also brought me to Yoga. I'd lost everything: my job, my apartment, and any illusion of security I'd managed to create. My therapist suggested going to a yoga class as a means of reconnecting with my body and it was there that I began the process of healing. Slowly, breath by breath, I began to find my way into my body. The work of being fully embodied continues to this day, but it began there and it opened me to the whispers of a calling I had been struggling to hear.
I became very dedicated to my yoga practice, delving deeply into yogic philosophy, and when I began teaching I focused my efforts on underserved and marginalized groups I knew could benefit from the healing that Yoga had offered me. I started teaching women who had been victims of sexual violence, people living with physical and emotional disabilities, and seniors who were grappling with their aging and changing bodies, among others. Yogic philosophy and practice, as well as teaching, satisfied me but not completely. The yoga community felt at times vapid and lacking seriousness. I felt connected to the Divine, and my life had purpose, but there was still a longing within. Around this time I began reading the Christian mystics, and often found myself nodding furiously as I read, tears in my eyes, feeling understood and moved and, I'll admit, jealous of their experiences.
I met the man who is now my husband within the same year of the assault. We were married a little over a year after we met and about 8 months after our wedding I co-founded a non-profit yoga studio. The same month the studio opened, we discovered we were expecting our first child. Just five months after the studio opened we learned that my husband's job would be taking us to Asia for 3-5 years. One month later, he was overseas and then 8 weeks before our baby was expected to arrive, off I went to join him.
As I began the work of mothering and co-parenting, I felt both deep satisfaction and great frustration. My love for my son and our little family was beautiful and magical and yet I felt very torn between my desire for fulfilling work, a rich spiritual life and practice, and a meaningful family life. As the days and weeks turned into months I began to see parenting as a deeply spiritual experience, full of opportunities for growth and transformation. My marriage was equally fertile ground for learning and relearning and giving and receiving unconditional love. Slowly but surely my life became less compartmentalized as I erased the lines I had drawn between my personal and spiritual lives. But I still needed a framework. How could I live a contemplative life while still participating fully and being deeply engaged with all of Life's joys and challenges?
The birth of my son had also awakened in me a deep desire to feel connected to my grandparents. When my mother became a JW she had severed all ties with her past, including her family for the most part, and so much of my family's history was lost to me. In fact, I didn't know much about my grandmother beyond the fact that she had been a devout Catholic, something my mother told me as a means to explain why we had to keep our distance. Being in Asia, where ancestors and tradition are highly valued, this lack of connection to my family's history became glaring.
While I sat with this yearning to feel a connection to the history of my family, as well as to those of my husband's family who had been Catholic for countless generations, I became aware of the new monastic movement. I discovered that there was a way to live life as a contemplative without eschewing the very human experiences that connect us to all others - marriage, sex, love, children, work. The new monastic movement, rather than asking us to forgo these experiences for a simple life dedicated to personal transformation, often removed from society, asks us to fully embrace Life and to use these experiences to translate personal transformation into societal transformation as we seek connection with God through connection with all others.
Inherent within this movement is the acknowledgment that the established systems - political, religious, educational, etc. - are not serving humanity. It was right around this time that I started to consider becoming Catholic. The timing was strange, even to me. After finding a framework that suited me, I was considering to join a very well established religious system that was utterly failing to fulfill the most basic spiritual needs of the masses. And yet, it was from the catholic tradition that so many of the mystics I so loved and admired had sprung. And tradition is what I wanted and needed. It was this desire that had drawn me into that church in my neighborhood so many years previous. The traditions that my family and my husband's family had participated in over generations, the rituals, were what I longed for. I wanted to kneel and pray and sing and experience the liturgy in the same way my ancestors had. I wanted to gaze upon the same icons and images they had supplicated for years. Could I join the church when I didn't believe everything it stood for and taught? When I, in fact, had some very real moral and ideological differences with the church?
One day I was listening to one of my favorite radio programs, On Being. Krista Tippet was interviewing Nadia Holz-Weber, a leading voice in the emerging church. In the interview she talked about God's grace filling in the cracks of the faults of the church. She said something incredibly profound as she discussed faith and belief. She said, "Faith is not given in sufficient quantities to individuals... it's given in sufficient quantities to groups of people." She mentioned that in our individualist American society so much of spirituality has become about the person, but really it's about community. She said nobody believes everything, but "in a room of people, for each line of the creed, somebody believes it, so we're covered." This blew my ex-JW mind! Despite years away from my upbringing and years of spiritual seeking and dabbling, there was a part of me that had never let go of the very black and white worldview that was so deeply ingrained in me as a child. This idea that something had to be 100% true or it was completely false. There was no room in the faith of my childhood for gray or context or interpretation and yet these subtleties are the very stuff of life.
I cannot claim that these few words erased any misgivings I have about the past or future of the church. They are still there but they do not prohibit me from experiencing the beauty of mass and feeling the presence of my ancestors as I do so. In reclaiming my spiritual heritage I am not rejecting the inter-spiritual framework I've chosen, but rather integrating the faith of my ancestors into my heart and practice. Inherent also in this choice is an acceptance of my responsibility to speak truth to power and to work for change from within.
Recently I witnessed about 20 children from our parish taking their first communion. My 7-year old inner child wept as Father Seamus delivered the homily, stating and re-stating in every possible configuration, that these children were loved - by their faith community, their parents, and God - and that there was nothing, nothing, they could ever do to separate themselves from this love.
The complete opposite of what I had heard about God and Love and Faith as a child. As I sat there with tears in my eyes I had a beautiful moment of clarity; a moment where I was witness to the healing taking place within my heart and psyche.
If I had to put into words what I experience at mass, I would describe it very much like Centering Prayer. I feel God's presence, as though I am resting in God, surrounded by Grace and Love. I feel connected to my ancestors, to the congregation, and by extension to all others. I feel grounded and whole; loving, loved, and lovable.
Follow V.K. Harber on Twitter: www.twitter.com/vkharber
 
a watcher
a watcher a year ago

So now she has an altar of idols. "...Those making them will become just like them..." (Psalms 115:4-8)
How is that better?
 
Ingenuous
Ingenuous a year ago

Going from feeling unloved and unlovable to thinking for one's self, finding self worth and taking a place in a community and the world is amazingly hard work and impossible for some. Being at peace looks different for everyone - I am really happy for this writer and enjoyed the read!
 
hamsterbait
hamsterbait a year ago

Watcher -
idols? I see simply symbols of spiritual states of mind ( from within the human, not beyond)
If this new way of life means more loving sharing and giving, meaningful friendships, and many happy days then GOOD FOR HER.
 
losingit
losingit a year ago

Wow!!!
 
Perry
Perry a year ago


Recently I witnessed about 20 children from our parish taking their first communion. My 7-year old inner child wept as Father Seamus delivered the homily, stating and re-stating in every possible configuration, that these children were loved - by their faith community, their parents, and God - and that there was nothing, nothing, they could ever do to separate themselves from this love. The complete opposite of what I had heard about God and Love and Faith as a child .

I can certainly identify with the need for love in children and as children. But, I could not help but notice how the words "Jesus Christ" were ENTIRELY missing from the narrative.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut a year ago

Perry, some Christians (not me as I am no longer a Christian) give thanks to God for what they perceive has been accomplished through Jesus. They give all praise and worship to God. They might even feel they are following Jesus' example. What a shame that you need to find fault with that toward your fellow Christians.
 
Dagney
Dagney a year ago

I enjoyed her article and appreciate her journey. The few times I've been to Catholic services, I felt all warm and fuzzy and I don't know why.
However, all religions have their own form of disfellowshipping and punishment. I studied with a girl who became a JW and her mother vehemently opposed her every step of the way. And when children were born, my student was worried her mom was going to have them baptised in the church. I then understood the Catholics/Jews/Mormons/JW's etc. all felt the same way...that if not in their religion, all were doomed for whatever type of destruction that was the doctrine. In my student's case, her mom was scared the children were going to hell. Now I get her. It's all in the degrees the individual exercises the rules of the doctrine. Not many are as severe as JW's, but there are those that are.
I'm glad the writer found her way to happiness and peace.
 
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 a year ago

Alter of idols? Good grief watcher. You continue to baffle.
I doubt very much she prays to those carvings and other things. Probably just reminders for her spiritually speaking.
But it most certainly better than being part of a legalistic, Pharisaical religion, that unscripturally excommunicates for differences of thought regarding ambiguous matters. How you can continue to defend this organization as it continues to try to shroud its history (whats that about a light under a basket?), is clearly responsible for death in the case of an erroneous blood doctrine and changes made throughout, and of course the shunning......the most "Christ-like" of all of their culturally governing principles,
is beyond me.
You never discuss any points of view with anyone, you just throw out a sentence or two, refuse to discuss any particular scriptural point, and leave.
I think that is very unfortunate. I propose we discuss the validity of the blood doctrine. For several reasons with the most important of which being establising bloodguilt. Also see: "communal bloodguilt" in the Insight book. If you study the literature that is.
I'll be waiting.

Take care.
 
jhine
jhine a year ago

I think that maybe the picture of the statuettes was symbolic of her journey through the various spiritual stages of her life as related in the story . It is wonderful that she has now found peace with herself and the world through the Catholic church . I am not Catholic but I acknowledge the rich spiritual heritage of that Christian denomination and know that all branches of Christianity grow from the same tree , (or even vine )
Jan
 
Pistoff
Pistoff a year ago


She mentioned that in our individualist American society so much of spirituality has become about the person, but really it's about community. She said nobody believes everything, but "in a room of people, for each line of the creed, somebody believes it, so we're covered."
This sums up for me the very good and the very bad in religion; the good, the sense of community, and the bad, the assertion of creed that, admittedly, no one person believes all of but are asked to affirm nonetheless as being true.
Oh, for the time when we can have community without having to swear to ideas we know are not true.

 

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First time ever - I attended my first Catholic Mass tonight...
by ziddina 5 years ago 69 Replies latest 6 days ago   jw experiences
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ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

It was very interesting...
Of course, the first thing I noticed was the building. VERY different from a "Kingdom Hall" - this Catholic Church is in an extremely modern, six-sided building. As one enters the building, their "holy water" font - fountain(???) is an exquisite three-piece modernistic piece wherein the water flows from three squarish structures into one slightly rectangular pool - all made from granite, far as I could tell. There was a flat-screen TV on the wall in the lobby listing the names of church members who were sick, and asking the church members to pray for these people.
Oh, and there were receptacles of "holy" water by the doors as one entered or exited - my Catholic friend used some of it to make the sign of the cross on herself, if I remember correctly.
When one enters the main assembly area, one is supposed to maintain a respectful silence - though the lovely Catholic lady that I went with was giving me a running commentary on the building, beliefs and customs until I mentioned to her that we could talk after the service...
The interior of the church maintained the six-sided motif, with all six sides sweeping upwards to a central point about 40+ feet over our heads - and the entire ceiling was paneled with wood - I think it was knotty pine, but whatever it was, it was beautiful.
There were modernistic stained-glass windows on the far ends of the stage, upon which were placed a simple rectangular altar (appeared to be granite or limestone), a small square table behind the altar with an icon of Jesus upon it, and a wooden podium which was used later during the service for bible readings. There were two "special" chairs upon the stage, with one in particular specially decorated, in which the priest sat between his parts during the sermon/Mass. Then there were several tasteful cloth-and-wooden chairs set behind the altar and the icon of Jesus.
There was an overwhelming bronze (?) sculpture of Jesus dying on the cross, on the wall central between the altar and the "orchestra" area, and two other sculptures which appeared to be either plaster or perhaps resin?? Full-sized sculptures, one of Mary in a pose of benediction and another of Jesus shepherding a small child. Both were painted somewhat realistically, being predominantly white with lots of gilt paint on their robes.
Towards the back of the seating areas - tiers, I guess one might call that area, because the wooden pews were set into the floor in a descending fashion, allowing everyone a clear view of the stage/altar - anyway, towards the back of the pews, there were chairs set up for the elderly and infirm, and several people in wheelchairs were seated in that area, also.
Despite the request for respectful silence, there was a soft murmuring from the crowd until the mass/service started. About 5 minutes before it started, two cloth "movie" screens descended discretely from the ceiling area, and a slide show made announcements regarding Lent, Stations of the Cross, a rummage sale or two, and donations for the Catholic relief effort going on in Japan.
At the beginning of the actual service/mass, a young man carried a golden pole with another icon of Jesus on the cross up to the stage and placed it into a golden base. Then an opening song was sung, and apparently it was so well known that everyone (except me) knew the words by heart. Then several very cute children (who were dressed in their street clothes underneath; I saw several pairs of tennis/sports shoes, but none of the ones that flash or have rollers on them) carried candles up to the altar and sat down in the wooden chairs after depositing the candles on the altar.
Then the priest led the church members in prayer. Then a scripture was read by a lay-person - from the wooden podium. Then the priest spoke a bit more, though he didn't attempt to make any interpretation or explanation of the scripture read - from Exodus, if I remember correctly, about Moses striking the rock with his rod and bringing forth water when the Israelites were complaining of thirst.
Then we knelt - and I must say, I do appreciate that the pews had special "kneeling" pads attached to them. Much more comfortable than kneeling on the floor would have been.
This pattern was repeated several times - prayers were said, we knelt - or stood - and scripture were read - something from Romans which I can't specifically remember right now, and something from the book of John about Jesus at the well and the Samaritan woman. The priest did use this scripture as the basis for a brief, but interesting sermon on the differences and origins of the Samaritans (the Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar talk, I remember...) and how Jesus offered life-giving water to her, and how the people of her town responded to Jesus' preaching.
Somewhere in the various scriptures and prayers, the priest threw in something about materialism, but it wasn't in a scolding manner or over-the-top. No comments were made against college or working to better oneself...
Another difference I noticed was in the way that the infants and small children were treated. None were dragged outside for a spanking; no yowls of pain echoed through the church. The parents with noisy children - and the noises were generally of happy children, by the way - seemed to just pick them up and hold them or rock them, as far as I could tell - one couple with a small child were seated two rows in front of me, and their response to their child's noises was VERY different from those I've observed among Jehovah's Witnesses - there was no "guilt" because the child was making noise, no rush to stifle the child; the mother simply picked the child up and soothed it upon her shoulder.
Also, when time came to partake of "the Host", there were no differences between the different people of the church - other than the difference between the priest and the laity. In fact, the ceremony was very different from Jehovah's Witnesses in that the priest blessed the emblems, partook of the emblems, and then passed the emblems on to a middle-aged blonde woman. She, in turn, placed the wafers on the tongues of about 20 other people - men, women, youths , and then the others took the emblems from her [there were several bowls of wafers and 20 or so goblets of wine...] and passed them out to all other members of the church who wished to partake of them.
VERY different from the Jehovah's Witnesses, where women aren't even allowed to handle the microphone...
Oh, and just for a moment there, as the priest blessed the emblems, I was reminded of the ancient worship of the Corn King, Ceres, Dionysus, and other agricultural gods upon which humanity relied for its existence...
When the people got up to partake of the emblems, just for fun I counted the number of teenagers in the group. There were over 30 teenagers in the crowd, of which I did a rough count and came up with around 300 people.
All in all, it was a very interesting and enlightening experience.
Oh, and... For those of you not familiar with my background, I was "raised" as a Jehovah's Witness from the age of 5 when my parents converted. I was bullied into the religion; practiced it halfheartedly, tried to do things their way until I realized - in my early 30's - that they couldn't beat me into it anymore. I left - DA'd - and am now an atheist with a fascination with the oldest form of worship known to humanity - goddess worship...
For my next religious experiment, I might attend a Baptist church - my Wiccan friend from the Bible Belt tells me that Baptists - especially Southern Baptists - would have a very interesting reaction to an ex-Jehovah's Witness...
Zid
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

Not as bad as you thought, eh? I felt the same way. :smile:
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, Shamus!
Nah, I wasn't expecting it to be "bad", at all...
Though the part where they turn to their neighbor during the service and say "Peace to you" and start hugging, had me hiding under the pew and ducking for cover...
 +1 / -0
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

Aw, it isn't that bad.... :wink: It's far better than a kingdumb hall and the "Dark days are here" type bullshit music playing.
 
wasblind
wasblind 5 years ago

Hey Zid,
I already have a cross, next time you go, bring me some of that holy water
when the JW's come to my door again, I'll hold up the cross, and sling
some of that holy water at 'em. They won't come to my door again, not
because of the cross and holy water, but because they'll think my ass is crazy
 +1 / -0
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

Tap water, holy water, what's the diff? Just put it in an expensive bottle, pray to the FSM and away you go. :grinning:
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 5 years ago

See Zid, we don't bite!
Though the part where they turn to their neighbor during the service and say "Peace to you" and start hugging, had me hiding under the pew and ducking for cover...
You should have used my mother's trick. When that part was coming up, she would cough loudly, covering her mouth with the palm of her right hand. No embarrassing hugging, no unwanted handshakes!
 
bsmart
bsmart 5 years ago

Catholic Mass is simular to the wittnesses in that the same scriptures are read on the same days. You can google them for your daily text if you like. We went to Mass tonight and heard those same readings.
Shamus, you are on a roll tonight!
 
WhatWasIThinking
WhatWasIThinking 5 years ago

You are supposed to dip your fingers in the holy water and do the sign of the cross when you enter and leave the building. Those boys that sit up by the altar and help the priest are altar boys. Babies are baptised soon after birth so they can go to heaven instead of purgatory when they die. Baptism usually just involves putting some holy water on the head. I have seen churches with what looks like a spa with stairs so I guess some older people who convert are baptisd by immersion, but I've never seen it.
After baptism you receive your first confession. They do it when they are children, but I can't remember the age. When you confess your sins you sit or kneel in a dark room and talk to a priest through a window, and neither person can see the other. It's anonymous unless the priest happens to know you and recognizes your voice. Even if he does, he will not mention it to you or the congregation. The priest will give you your penance which can range from saying so many prayers to making amends for what you've done. There is no punishment or DF'ing for confessing your sins and I feel that it is a much more loving arrangement that encourages people to confess rather than discourages them due to fear of losing their family or friends over a mistake. The only stipulation is that you are supposed to complete your penance before you receive the eucharist (body/blood of Christ) again. There is no set amount of time you are supposed to wait between confessions. You could go everyday or go once every few decades.
After your first confession you receive your first communion, which is when you are allowed to start partaking of the bread and wine during mass. Again I don't remember the age but it's early teens or slightly before, maybe around the 6th grade or so. All Catholics that have gone through first communion and are not still completing a penance are allowed to participate as much as they want. Some people go to mass everyday and partake of the bread and wine everyday.
Other things of the Catholic church. Ash Wednesday which marks the start of lent. People go to mass and get ashes put on their head. Lent which is the 46 days leading up to Easter Sunday. You are supposed to give up something during lent, something that you enjoy so that it is a sacrifice. You aren't supposed to eat meat (fish is ok) on ash Wednesday or any Friday during lent. Palm Sunday is the Sunday before Easter and when they had out palm leaves to the congregation to commemorate Jesus's return to Jerusalem before his death. Good Friday is the Friday before Easter Sunday, commemorating Jesus's death. Stations of the cross where the priest walks around the church and mentions each station with a scripture is done on Fridays during lent, but some churches only do it on Good Friday. Easter celebrating Jesus' resurrection.
Advent that starts on the 4th Sunday before Christmas to help you prepare for the celebration of Jesus's birth. Nativity scenes and Christmas trees are commonly seen inside and outside of churches. There is almost always a midnight mass held at 12:00 AM on Christmas day to celebrate the birth of Jesus. There are also masses held throughout the day.
Catholics encourage higher education. Many of the Catholic high schools are competitive college prep schools offering many honors and AP courses, a variety of freshman, junior varsity, and varsity sports teams, and a fine arts and performing arts department. The high school I attended recently built a new, state of the art campus to replace the original 56 year old campus. I just looked at their stats for last year and they had 100% graduation with 96% of graduating seniors going straight into college. A far cry from most public schools and a huge difference from the JWs as far as college bound students go.
That's all I can remember off the top of my head. I haven't been in a Catholic church except for weddings and funerals in over a decade.
 
WhatWasIThinking
WhatWasIThinking 5 years ago

I forgot to mention that even though I'm an atheist now, if I had kids I would definitely look at sending them to a Catholic or other private school. When they entered high school I would want them to go to a college prep school. Even if they decided they didn't want to go to college, I think the basic education they received vs an overcrowded public school would be worth it.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

Try a High Episcopalian service/mass next time. They are more Catholic than a Catholic mass. Prettier and closer to what Catholic masses were prior to Vatican II, without the Latin
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

We have women priests and deacons, too.
 
satinka
satinka 5 years ago

Hi Zid,
Mr Satinka and I accompanied our friends to a Catholic Mass for Christmas once. Very formal. And because our friends are not married, they were not allowed to partake of the communion, even though they are regular church attenders. We did not go up to the front to partake, either. We are not Catholic. We are not married, either, so we would not be allowed. Catholics have quite a lot of rules to follow.
In the past, after leaving the jws, I have attended different kinds of churches...Christian Alliance Churches (shudder...too much like the jws), several New Age Churches (at least three different ones), Baptist Church (kinda harsh like the jws, too ), United Churches (most "moderate" and "inclusive" of all, in my experience).
I began thinking that church was not for me. I never really felt like I "belonged."
We are not church attenders any longer. Best thing we like to do is go for a walk in nature to feel connected.
Oh, and interestingly...I have "goddess" cards that I draw once a week or so, for inspiration!
satinka
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 5 years ago

Sounds interesting. I avoid religion these days, but have considered popping into the local Catholic Church sometime to observe a Mass.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Jeff
 
glentrevette
glentrevette 5 years ago

you mean after all syou were taught about the trinity and images and homosexual priests and i could go on and on you were a dog returning to its vomit
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 5 years ago

tAnd a Catholic service yet. You get extra points from either God or Satan.
I could not make the leap to Catholicism. The very few things I believe the Witnesses are right about negate Catholicism. I do see it as a manifestation of continuity of the Church. I became Episcoplian because the subway was out at Columbia so I had to walk downtown. For some reason, I walked past a church I never noticed before. There was a sign up that Geraldo Rivera and Cesar Chavez, the migrant worker leader, were preaching the sermon on Sunday. I drove in from NJ. It was the Episcopal Cathedral in NY, off the beaten path in NY. The majesty of the architecture, the happy faces, the intellectually rigorous sermons, the ecumenical approach all made me feel as though I was in heaven. It is High Church, Anglo-Catholic, which is very dominant in NY. Oh, the glory of the incense and ritual going back thousands of years.
I was so used to treprimanded in the Witnesses that it took me years to get to baptism and confirmation. The Exchange of Peace was awkward and it was just being introduced. I obsessed about how to hold my hands properly during communion. It never occurred to me that I could ask someone. I kept buying catechisms and history books. It is a lot of English history to know. I was terrified of demons. My confirmation teacher told me to read C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, letters from a senior demon to his nephew in the field. It changed my life.
Isn't it a shame what the Witnesses give up? Aesthetics aside, being a Witness I never felt affirmation. It is available elsewhere. The Anglican communion is very split now because of the ordination of homosexuals. You can voice your opinions freely. Try voicing any criticism of the Witnesses.


h
 
White Dove
White Dove 5 years ago

Egg and I are talking about visiting the Catholic Church here.
We've visited before and liked the ceremony.
I could read a lot of what they said because they use song books and another book to read out of.
We want to attend a Latin service to see what it's like.
I relate the saints they have with the different gods and goddesses of paganism.
Each one represents a facet of life and something to work on.
And, they have such beautiful buildings.
 
dgp
dgp 5 years ago

From a former devout Catholic, Episcopalian = Light Catholic.
Catholics can go from the cultic, like the Opus Dei, to the very modern. I do not believe in the religion anymore, but it can be a very good social experience.
I may add that in the developing world the churches are not necessarily nice buildings. The poorer the community, the poorer the building. Except, of course, if you happen to attend mass in an old church, where the decoration can indeed be magnificent.
Catholic Mass is simular to the wittnesses in that the same scriptures are read on the same days. You can google them for your daily text if you like. We went to Mass tonight and heard those same readings.
In fact, it's the same scriptures the same days every year. If you want, you can buy the "Daily Missal" and read them in advance. Or you can get them as bulletins. Or you can NOT get them and go to mass all the same.
Confession is said to be the way your sins are forgiven. If you die while in deadly sin, you'll go to hell, so frequent confession is said to work in your favor: you start out clean again, so to speak. In poorer churches the priest does see you and does know who you are. In my experience, there were never problems for that reason. The very elderly priests usually make themselves useful as confessors.
You'd be surprised to know that some modern priests don't even ask you to tell your sins. "It's enough for me that you came here, so ego te absolvo in nomine patri, et filii, et spiritus sancti. For penance, give something to the poor, be well, and please don't sleep face down or you'll masturbate again."
I understand that the Catholic Church does not hold you responsible for sins before a certain age, that used to be seven years of age. You're assumed not to know the difference between good and evil, so you're not responsible. In my experience, I had my first confession when I was going to have my first communion, meaning eight years of age (I had the communion at 9).
You're not allowed to take the host if you haven't had the first communion. This is because you have to learn the basics of the faith before they let you have the first communion. You sort of learn the basics, really, unless your family is specially religious.
Even if you've had your first communion, you're not supposed to take the host if you haven't confessed your sins. People often ignore that, and the priests don't say a word.
(Macchiavelli said that we should be on guard against priests, because they know our sins, and theirs)
Though the part where they turn to their neighbor during the service and say "Peace to you" and start hugging, had me hiding under the pew and ducking for cover...
Well, where I live, friends and relatives actually kiss each other.
Then we knelt - and I must say, I do appreciate that the pews had special "kneeling" pads attached to them. Much more comfortable than kneeling on the floor would have been.
Poorer churches don't have these niceties, so you can either kneel on the floor or stand up. If you're old and you do neither, no one will criticize you.
Another difference I noticed was in the way that the infants and small children were treated. None were dragged outside for a spanking; no yowls of pain echoed through the church.
You'd probably be surprised to know that in the poorer Third World countries it is not rare at all to have women breastfeeding their children at church, during the service. Of course many people complain, usually women (men don't).
Children are sometimes punished, but these days you'd certainly be disapproved if you were to beat your child while in church, or even outside. This in countries where "not sparing the rod" is still practiced.
You'd probably be surprised to see what happens in Baptism Sundays. The church is chock full of crying babies.
Then several very cute children (who were dressed in their street clothes underneath; I saw several pairs of tennis/sports shoes, but none of the ones that flash or have rollers on them)
I was an altar boy. Indeed this is the case. These days they have altar girls, too.
I used to attend a Salesian church (Don Bosco's), and we had a soccer league on weekends. We were required to attend mass on Saturdays, before the games started, but we did that in our team's jerseys. I had a Baptist friend who wanted to play soccer with us, and he was required to attend mass, too, which meant the poor guy didn't join the team.
Then an opening song was sung, and apparently it was so well known that everyone (except me) knew the words by heart.
You learn to follow the mass by attending mass. No one teaches you that. Some time ago they would tell you the parts of the mass, but no one told me.
Other things of the Catholic church. Ash Wednesday which marks the start of lent. People go to mass and get ashes put on their head. Lent which is the 46 days leading up to Easter Sunday. You are supposed to give up something during lent, something that you enjoy so that it is a sacrifice. You aren't supposed to eat meat (fish is ok) on ash Wednesday or any Friday during lent.
Lent is actually forty days, the same number of days Jesus is said to have spent fasting in the desert because he started his ministry.
In developing countries, meat is not as frequently on the table as it would be elsewhere. So the priests sometimes will not mind at all if you eat meat during Lent. Maybe that is the only time in the month you will have meat, so, how would that be right?
Catholics encourage higher education. Many of the Catholic high schools are competitive college prep schools offering many honors and AP courses, a variety of freshman, junior varsity, and varsity sports teams, and a fine arts and performing arts department. The high school I attended recently built a new, state of the art campus to replace the original 56 year old campus. I just looked at their stats for last year and they had 100% graduation with 96% of graduating seniors going straight into college. A far cry from most public schools and a huge difference from the JWs as far as college bound students go.
Higher education is not only encouraged, but promoted. Remember that the Jesuits call themselves "the best educators in the world" (to the disagreement of many). I happened to attend Catholic schools (of course) and yes, the teaching is way better than elsewhere. There are some nuns that, er, I don't remember fondly, but the quality of the education is certainly higher.

There are many bad things with Catholicism, of course, but I think it's fair to say that they are way more liberal than the Jehovah's witnesses.
 
mouthy
mouthy 5 years ago

Why not go into your room shut the door & ask the one who paid for all our sins
to come into your heart...Instead of all seeking for the right church.
If your a Christian ( a follower of Christ) you are one of the stones that makes up
the CHURCH!!!!So GOD is IN you! in the form of the HOLY SPIRIT!!!!
Please refrain from tossing your rocks at me!!!!
 
wasblind
wasblind 5 years ago

((((((( Granny ))))))) Hugs and a  no stones
 

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First time ever - I attended my first Catholic Mass tonight...
by ziddina 5 years ago 69 Replies latest 6 days ago   jw experiences
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ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, all!! Thanks for your comments; I'm reading thru them between feeding hungry critters and will answer or comment more fully in a bit....
Please keep in mind that this was my FIRST time attending a Catholic Mass - hint, hint, Glen Trevette - so this description is thru the eyes of a "virgin" -  - I think the Catholics can appreciate that bit of irony...
I am indeed interested in visiting other churches and now I'll have to hunt up an "Anglican" - or was that "High Episcopalian"????  - church service next time...
I tend to have insomnia and don't get up very early in the morning, so it will take me a while to get to some of these services...
Looking forward to your comments!!
Zid
 
JuanMiguel
JuanMiguel 5 years ago

Of course Mass is not the same as praying to God and asking for God to be with you in your heart. It is a formal act of worship, a uniting of oneself with the sacrifice of the cross.
Catholics believe that Christ literally becomes present at the Mass as King, as Priest, and as Victim. Being God, Catholics believe that time is not binding anymore on their Lord, and that he can thus make the very sacrifice of the cross present again in time in such a sense that it is the very one and same sacrifice that took place on Good Friday.
Catholics view the cross as the "Tree of Life," and the fruit of the tree that makes people live forever they believe to be Christ's body and blood, made present for all at that sacrifice. They become in full communion with Christ by partaking of his body and blood, so they believe. And they also offer themselves fully with Christ on the altar as Christ's sacrifice is made present and offered up before them in the Mass.
It is not a new sacrifice or a repeating of the sacrifice of the cross, and it is not a reenactment of it either. It is seen as the means one comes into physical contact with it and with God. It the highest form of what they call a "sacrament," namely the physical representation of an otherwise invisible grace from God.
So it's not just an assembling together for a meeting or coming to listen to a sermon. It's an act of worship in which people become united with Christ and his sacrifice for the salvation of the world. It is also a public act of the Church's vocation, it's opus Dei supremo, also known as "liturgy."
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 5 years ago

In fact, it's the same scriptures the same days every year.
It's really a three-year cycle for Sunday readings, though some things are the same for each year of the cycle. The readings have a common theme, following the liturgical seasons: Advent, Christmas, the Passion, Resurrection, Pentecost, etc. Google "Catholic lectionary" if you want to know more.
As for Lent being 40 days vs. 46: Sundays are not considered days of Lent, they are "days of rest" from lenten observances. There are six full weeks of six days, plus the partial week of Ash Wednesday through the following Saturday: fourty days total, with six Sunday breaks along the way.
 
dgp
dgp 5 years ago

All right, GL Tirebiter :smile:.
I don't have to Google that. We have my great-grand-mother's "Daily Roman Missal". It's part of the family heritage now, because it's the book she used in times long past (the lady died at old age in the early 1970's), and the book she gave my mother when she felt she was going to pass away. It would be very easy to tear the pages simply by turning them.
As a boy, what I liked was to read about the different garments the priests wears, when, why, and what they are called. It's interesting in itself.
So it's not just an assembling together for a meeting or coming to listen to a sermon. It's an act of worship in which people become united with Christ and his sacrifice for the salvation of the world. It is also a public act of the Church's vocation, it's opus Dei supremo, also known as "liturgy."
Yes. By the way, you can go to any church, and it doesn't matter if they don't know you or when you came last. If you stopped attending, and want to go back, that is fine with anyone.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

First of all, must acknowledge the monkey...
Hi, Shamus!!!
And Hi, WasBlind!!! As to your request:
"I already have a cross, next time you go, bring me some of that holy water when the JW's come to my door again, I'll hold up the cross, and sling some of that holy water at 'em. ..."
Dang!! I'm afraid it might leak while in transit - at least the U.S. Postal Service would be blessed!!!
Oh!! That reminds me - at the end of the Catholic service, the priest mentioned some interesting trivia - did you know that you can dilute "holy" things and they become - uh, "normal", I guess.... According to him [if I understood him correctly...], if it's diluted below 50%, it's no longer "holy"...
Vampire hunters  , take note...!!
Zid
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, GL Tirebiter!! [waves...]
As you said, "See Zid, we don't bite!..."
 Thank goodness!!
I liked your mother's trick...
"You should have used my mother's trick. When that part was coming up, she would cough loudly, covering her mouth with the palm of her right hand. No embarrassing hugging, no unwanted handshakes!..."
Aaand I have to go back and look at your second comment... Ah, there we go...
"It's really a three-year cycle for Sunday readings, though some things are the same for each year of the cycle. The readings have a common theme, following the liturgical seasons: Advent, Christmas, the Passion, Resurrection, Pentecost, etc. Google "Catholic lectionary" if you want to know more.
As for Lent being 40 days vs. 46: Sundays are not considered days of Lent, they are "days of rest" from lenten observances. There are six full weeks of six days, plus the partial week of Ash Wednesday through the following Saturday: fourty days total, with six Sunday breaks along the way. ..."
Ah, that is very interesting... By following this "three-year cycle for Sunday readings", is the entire bible eventually read to the church members?? [I don't know what to call them; I keep wanting to call them the "congregation" or the "laity" or the "throng"...??]
They mentioned Lent and I'm totally in the dark - and befuddled - by all the info coming at me right now. Six weeks of Lent, only Sundays don't count?? Did I get that right??
Interesting...
Zid
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

:grinning:
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

Catholic masses, unless you attend midnight mass or a funeral mass, are very watered down and not beautiful like masses used to be.
You have to attend a high Lutheran, High Methodist (the original methodist mass was anglican catholic in origin, no the branches of the church) or High Episcopalian Masses or services to get the pretty ones.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

BSmart, thanks for commenting!!  Yeah, when Shamus is on a roll, he's a steamroller!! I like his idea of having the "Flying Spagetti Monster" touch the water with his noodley appendages and then using that to drive away the Witnesses next time they call on WasBlind!
WhatWasIThinking - wow!!!  Clearly you are very familiar with the Catholic church!! Hmmm... Let's see...
Dipping my fingers into the holy water and making the sign of the cross - I decided not to do that, because I wasn't an actual member - just observing - with a "humanist" viewpoint.
Altar boys - er, in this case, "altar kids" - cute!! I knew about baptising babies and needing first communion - isn't there something about learning the "catachism" in there, as a requirement before one can have their first confession and "First Communion"?? I agree with you about the "punishments" for 'sins' - much better in the Catholic Church in that you are told to do something - usually for others - and then you can receive the symbols - "eucharist" again. As opposed to the harsh disfellowshipping and shunning... I think that the Catholics have "disfellowshipping" too, but it's called something else - "excommunication" - and hasn't been harshly enforced for the last 300 years or so... Right??
As you also said:
"Catholics encourage higher education. Many of the Catholic high schools are competitive college prep schools offering many honors and AP courses, a variety of freshman, junior varsity, and varsity sports teams, and a fine arts and performing arts department. The high school I attended recently built a new, state of the art campus to replace the original 56 year old campus. I just looked at their stats for last year and they had 100% graduation with 96% of graduating seniors going straight into college. A far cry from most public schools and a huge difference from the JWs as far as college bound students go. ..."
Yes, their behavior has changed since the days of Copernicus... I've heard stories about ferocious nuns in the grade schools with their wooden rulers - no wonder Catholic schools produce such diligent students!!!
And also as you said, a far cry from the deliberately enforced ignorance of the Jehovah's Witnesses...
Thanks for all the information - I intend to eventually visit several different kinds of churches, THEN attend a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall - for the first time in a long time - just to obtain a more balanced viewpoint of religion before I go back to look at the JWs.
Zid
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, Flying High Now!! [waves...!] I'm coming to your comment; I've already noted what you said regarding the "High Episcopalian" masses and intend to find one in my area!!
[my poor old computer is being a total brat - moving like a snail today, so please bear with me...]
"Try a High Episcopalian service/mass next time. They are more Catholic than a Catholic mass. Prettier and closer to what Catholic masses were prior to Vatican II, without the Latin ... [also...] "We have women priests and deacons, too..."


 Well, lookee there!! I got your pix in the quote too!!
Anyway, I am definitely going to take your advice - I'm looking forward to seeing these services that you speak of!!
Zid
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, Satinka!! [waves!!] There we go! Your name's all colorful, like a tropical sunset!!
Your comments:
"Mr Satinka and I accompanied our friends to a Catholic Mass for Christmas once. Very formal. And because our friends are not married, they were not allowed to partake of the communion, even though they are regular church attenders. We did not go up to the front to partake, either. We are not Catholic. We are not married, either, so we would not be allowed. Catholics have quite a lot of rules to follow.
Yeah, I noticed that from my experiences with the Catholic kids I went to school with... There were a few who didn't end up with the nuns!!
In the past, after leaving the jws, I have attended different kinds of churches...Christian Alliance Churches (shudder...too much like the jws), several New Age Churches (at least three different ones), Baptist Church (kinda harsh like the jws, too ), United Churches (most "moderate" and "inclusive" of all, in my experience).
I began thinking that church was not for me. I never really felt like I "belonged."
We are not church attenders any longer. Best thing we like to do is go for a walk in nature to feel connected.
Oh, and interestingly...I have "goddess" cards that I draw once a week or so, for inspiration!  ..."
I TOTALLY agree with the idea of finding one's spirituality with nature!!! I see by your comment about the "goddess" cards - you've read my comment to that point, also?? I love my "goddesses" card decks - now I have two of them - one for the morning, one for the evening...
Which reminds me...  .... I want to find the name of the third "Zorya" goddess - I know the name of the one for dawn, and the one for evening, but I can't find the name of the one for midnight. It may be that her name is one that may not be spoken!!
Anyway... Thanks for your comment!!
Zid
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, AK_Jeff!!! Sharing my experience - my pleasure! Thanks for commenting!!
Hi, BandOnTheRun- what???
"And a Catholic service yet. You get extra points from either God or Satan. ..."
Is that like, "If you mess with the bull, you get the horns - or a lotta bullsh*t..." ??
Regarding your comment,
"I could not make the leap to Catholicism. The very few things I believe the Witnesses are right about negate Catholicism. I do see it as a manifestation of continuity of the Church. ..."
Now, I don't quite understand what you meant when you said, "I do see it as a manifestation of continuity of the Church...", but if you meant that the Catholic Church is the oldest strain of Christianity, then I see what you're saying - I think...
For that matter, the appeal - well, one major appeal - that Catholicism has for me, is its innate paganism - it has picked up and preserved many older "pagan" or "heathen" deities in its roster of "saints".
"It was the Episcopal Cathedral in NY, off the beaten path in NY. The majesty of the architecture, the happy faces, the intellectually rigorous sermons, the ecumenical approach all made me feel as though I was in heaven. It is High Church, Anglo-Catholic, which is very dominant in NY. Oh, the glory of the incense and ritual going back thousands of years. .."
Both you and FlyingHighNow have recommended the Episcopalian church to me, so if I can find one in my area, I will most certainly check it out. At the Catholic mass, people pretty much showed up in everyday clothes; is that the case with the Episcopalians??? I actually enjoy dressing up a bit for church, so if the Episcopalian services require that the au - er, church members - be dressed in their "Sunday" best, I will happily comply...
"Isn't it a shame what the Witnesses give up? Aesthetics aside, being a Witness I never felt affirmation.."
So true, so true, so terribly sadly true...
Thanks again for your comments, both of you!!
Zid
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 5 years ago

Zid,
I am glad to hear you are opening your heart and mind. The best advice I was given was to go "Church Surfing". I eventually settled on a local Methodist congregation here in town after years of visiting several churces. My main reasons for joining were two fold.
1)There is a big emphasis on service and personal growth in the UMC faith. I found many churches focused on faith and salvation but, no real works (unless you mean writing a check which is important too). Maybe this ressonated with me as being raised JW in a "works based" belief but it still feels right for me.
2) They respect and feel that the christian "traditions" that the JW's knock on all the time add benefit and context to worship and our lives as christians. They don't nit pick and hyper-analyze things and lose the whole point. I was very uncomfortable watching my first infant baptism but when I absorbed the big picture it was beautiful. It was actually a Chirstening were the family (extended as well) and the whole congregation took an oath to love, forgive and be there for this child regardless of his decisions.
Good luck in your experiment. I know you will be blessed and meet some great people. Don't be afraid to ask hard questions like about the Trinity etc... from any leaders you might meet. I find most welcome an honest chance to discuss the more mysterious aspects of faith if asked respectfully (not like we did in field service). I had some great open minded and honest discussions that would never happen with an Elder at the KH. It's like going from East Germany to the USA sometimes. What's the point of going to church if people can't speak freely about their problems, doubts and struggles with faith?
-Cage
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, Cagefighter!! I'm going to reply to your comments a bit out-of-sequence, because I need to correct one misperception...
I am an atheist with a fascination for the very OLDEST forms of human worship, the worship of goddesses. I have begun sampling different Christian churches as a comparative exercise, from a humanist's viewpoint, as I was denied that freedom and experiences when I was younger.
When I have attended suffiient services at churches that were considered by the Jehovah's Witnesses to be of "Christendom", I am then going to go back to a Kingdom Hall, and compare first or fresh impressions... Hopefully I will be able to view the JWs with a clear and impartial eye, at that point.
As a "humanist", I will be looking at the way the various churches approach sin, forgiveness, excommunication/shunning/disfellowshipping, good works, higher education, self-improvement, feminism and/or womens' rights, and so on.
I won't be paying as much attention to the level of biblical accuracy; however, the various churches will get bonus "points", so to speak, for the extent to which they allow their parishioners latitude in private biblical reading and personal freedom to interpret what they have read. Also, how much they encourage or develop the ability of their parishioners to read the bible with comprehension, especially within an historical and cultural context.
However, rest assured that if I have any questions on the deeper aspects of faith, and of the beliefs in the Middle-Eastern god/gods, I will be sure to ask you...!
Zid  - remember, I am the She-Devil, after all...
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 5 years ago

Zid,
I would hardly consider myself an expert on the topic but I do appreciate the confidence. I approached life with a very similar viewpoint for some time which led me to the conclusion that all religion is there to help us make sense of ourselves and the universe. Proverbs 14:12 says, "There is a way that seems right to a man but it leads to death". In my opinion ALL religion not just christian addresses this fatal trait in humanity. I am just a guy that saw the need to address that issue and picked a team. Is it a perfect team, certainly not but the 1993 Dallas Cowboys (best team ever) had a few flaws too. The point for me is that my team supports me, pushes me, and loves me and I return the favor. People who take this approach to religion as opposed to the "we must cover the earth with our literature or doctrines" approach seem to be much happier and spiritual. The more I seek the God of the bible the more light, order and love come into my life. Maybe it's because that is what I know first or that is what is most convienent. Everyone must find their own path and I love to see people opening themselves up to different traditions and practices. I think spiritual people, neo-pagan, buddhist, christian have more in common than they do not.
I am glad you are exploring and putting yourself out there. May you find more light, love and peace.
-Cage
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

It bothers me a great deal on this site - how people get Catholics mixed up with Christian Fundumbmentalists. Most Catholics are very nice, honest, and outgoing people. So what if they believe in god and you don't. It's not a big topic of conversation with them.
I don't know why people leave a cult and think they can ditch everyone who doesn't think exactly how they think. It's no better than belonging to a kingdumb hall.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, Shamus!!
I'm curious - do you want to point out the comments that caused you to say, "It bothers me a great deal on this site - how people get Catholics mixed up with Christian Fundumbmentalists. ..."
Hey, I'm not the brightest crayon in the box, and I need a little help...  Personally, I would never confuse Catholicism with fundamentalism - though I think that the Catholic Church has used its power and influence to move political issues towards a biblical viewpoint, as in attempting to limit or eliminate government funding for abortions, allowing gay marriages, and so on...
But that's not the same thing as fundamentalism, is it???
Zid
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

Hint: Not all Catholics believe in that nonsense. Jeez, they're not even allowed to use contraception for goodness sakes. They do, they do... :grinning: Remember, not all religions are as stupid as Jehovahs Witnesses.
There are too many threads to count that deal with people who do that - I'll let you find them.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

OH!! I think I see what you're saying...
The Catholic church, though having "official" stances against certain "unchristian" behaviors - contracepion, abortion, mistresses, gay marriages, and so on - they - the Catholic church - won't "officially" excommunicate people [at least nowadays - remember Copernicus and Galileo??] and force the rest of the congregation - church members - to also "shun" them...
Yeah, the Catholics are much more easy-going in that aspect... Less dogmatic...
Hey! Just to let you know - if you have cable TV, IFC "Independent Film Channel" - is running "Religulous" right now!!! You won't hear anyghing more from me for the next hour and a half - I'm watching "Religulous"!!!
Zid
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

It's an awful show, Zid. :frowning: NOT FUNNY, JUST STUPID GLOBAL LABELLING. :wink:
Stay and kiss me... :smile:
 

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Topic Summary
it was very interesting.... of course, the first thing i noticed was the building.
very different from a "kingdom hall" - this catholic church is in an extremely modern, six-sided building.
as one enters the building, their "holy water" font - fountain(???



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First time ever - I attended my first Catholic Mass tonight...
by ziddina 5 years ago 69 Replies latest 6 days ago   jw experiences
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Snoozy
Snoozy 5 years ago

My opinion is that no church has all the answers and none are 100% right. I think what people look for is friendship and a feeling of being closer to god. The witnesses act like they have all the answers and we found out they are wrong..other religions don't act like they have all the answers and are more like a religion should be..there for encouragement and spiritual guidance. Not to judge and berate you for every little thing they think is wrong..
I too went to a Catholic church with my daughter and her in laws family. I had been baptised a Catholic as a baby but never raised that way. I knew they did a lot of thiings that weren't bible based but the spiritual was there..people had come together to feel closer to god. You could tell. I enjoyed it. I also found myself wondering about the priests and the alter boys in a moment flashback to being a witness, but I quicky brushed that evil thought out of my mind. The witnesses had planted that poison in my mind. They don't all do that kind of thing..
I would not have a problem going to any church..as long as it isn't a holy roller..they freak me out .
Snoozy
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

My therapist for the past three years is a very hip, forward thinking Dominican Catholic Nun. You'd never know she was a nun. She was an engineer, then went back to school to get her doctorate in psychology. She's amazing. Not all Catholics are by the book Catholics.
 
Snoozy
Snoozy 5 years ago

FHN, after visiting the Catholic Church I wonder if any of them are by the book anymore..
Snoozy
 
Scott77
Scott77 5 years ago

After exiting the kingdumb hall in 2007, I returned back to my catholic root mainly for socialization, new friendship, a feeling of belongness and spending quality time with a large group of socially minded people once a week. This has helped me alot to overcome loneness. You know, many of us after breaking off with the WTS, must start a new with new friendships. For many, its a hard time. We cut off many of our longtime JW friends as we grew up being indoctrinated to avoid socialization with 'worldly' people. Todate, I have found many new friends and its a blessing for me to feel great this way even though I do not agree with many of the church's teaching. The social benefits are enriching.

Scott77
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

Yes, some of them are by the book Catholics. They try very hard to live to the letter of the law of the Vatican. They call Catholics who don't do this
Cafeteria Catholics. I'd say that at least in the USA, there are more Cafeteria Catholics than By The Book ones.
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 5 years ago

Ah, that is very interesting... By following this "three-year cycle for Sunday readings", is the entire bible eventually read to the church members?
The coverage is extensive, but you'd have to go every day, and even then there just aren't enough days to cover every single verse using the one-topic-per-reading format. There is an OT reading, Psalms are sung, and a Gospel reading every day, and another NT reading (usually from the epistles) on Sundays and Holy Days.
I suspect the extensive schedule of readings carries over from times before printing presses and and education of the lower classes. For most of the church's history the only way most in the congregation could learn the Bible stories was by hearing them read.
(added)
@FHN: we also have what are called Catholic "CEOs": Christmas and Easter Only!
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

This is the closing hymn and recessional for an Episcopal Cathedral during Easter.

&feature=related
 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 5 years ago

Similar feelings I had when I went to the Orthodox Church. Although Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the 2 basic Christian religions and have only 2 issues that separates them, Filioque and the possition of Pope at the Church.
Technically speaking the Apostolic Orthodox Church set the Biblical Canon with the 76 Books. So if you feel to look at the origins of Christianity then look for Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church.
Specially the Orthodox Temple gives you the feel that indeed you are entering in place of worship. The way the Icons are on the surrounding walls, the candles, the scents, the Eclesiastical music, all they indicate that you are in place of worship and prayer.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 5 years ago

Organized religion should be a structure for you to grow, like a vine grows up lattuce work towards the light. The church is not the light but helps you get closer to the light.
Everyone is at a different place. Some folks don't need or aren't ready for any organized religion. Heck, the Kingdom Hall is a big step towards the light for some (let's be honest). The problem is some people take a step closer and turn their brains off and we all know those types in and out of every religion.
-Cage
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Wowwiee!!
Many more responses!!
Flying High Now, thanks for posting that video!! That is impressive...
I'll have to find such a service in my area. Just one question - do people show up in "street" clothes for such a service, or do they wear their "Suday" best?? (Just so I won't look too out-of-place, since I'll be showing up by myself...)
Looking at the crowd - I can't tell - looks like some people are well-dressed and others in regular around-the-house clothes...
Thanks!! Zid
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

People dress in what makes them comfortable. If you want to dress up, then do dress up. Different Episcopal churches have different levels of fancy. Some are very high church, some medium and some lower church. The church I attended in Grand Rapids, St. Mark's is high church. The one I attend now is lower. But on the holy days, they burn incense and do the more fancy things. Every Episcopal church I have attended uses the processional and recessional and offers communion on your knees at the communion rail. If you are baptized, you can take communion at the Episcopal church. Cross your right palm over your left to receive the bread or host. You can save it to dip in the wine or you can eat it and sip wine from the chalice. Hold the chalice at the bottom. They will hold the chalice, but you can help.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

Also, if you don't wish to take communion, cross your palms over your chest and then ask the priest for a blessing if you want one. The blessings are very moving.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

Our priest is an opera singer who sang with Placido Domingo. He is very universalist in his views. He is very cool with my grandson who has decided he is an atheist. Our church understands we are all on our separate journeys, spiritually and there is no one right way to God.
Our church is not high church. This is my church. That is Father Jim playing the guitar and leading the service. This is much less formal than say St. Mark's, but you will still find it higher than your everyday Catholic mass.
http://www.youtube.com/user/HolyTrinityWyoming#p/u/39/7r9177fZ-zg
 
dgp
dgp 5 years ago

do people show up in "street" clothes for such a service, or do they wear their "Suday" best?? (Just so I won't look too out-of-place, since I'll be showing up by myself...)
Among the Catholics, in poorer areas or countries, people wear whatever they can. This should be obvious, but, if you compare with the Jehovah's witnesses, you'll find that wearing what the witnesses wear can be a heavy burden on the people. Requiring that you wear something special IS indeed a rigid and inflexible demand.
That said, some people do make an effort to wear their "Sunday" clothes. And some priests do frown on your arriving in informal clothes, or showing a bit too much flesh.
Dressing up can actually be frowned upon. Like you want to show off.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 5 years ago

In the Episcopal church, they don't care what you wear. Just be comfortable. The priests won't frown on you. It's very live and let live.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Fascinating...
And so many wonderful replies!!
I wonder what will happen when I attend another type of church...
I intend [as I stated earlier] to attend several different churches, then go back to a Kingdom Hall for comparison...
More to come...
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

[and back to my replies, post by post, to all the lovely people who have responded!]
White Dove, thanks for your comments!!
Egg and I are talking about visiting the Catholic Church here. We've visited before and liked the ceremony. I could read a lot of what they said because they use song books and another book to read out of.
Heh! I didn't try; the only thing that this Catholic Church had to read, was the song book - and I was too busy looking around, absorbing all the stimuli of this new experience to poke my nose into their song book!! [very unusual of me - I am normally quite a bookworm!]
We want to attend a Latin service to see what it's like.
Ooooh! Me too! Me too! I'm not sure that I can find one, and from what FlyingHighNow has told me, I think that an Episcopalian service might be the next best thing...
I relate the saints they have with the different gods and goddesses of paganism.
Heh! Me too; though I am a bit sorrowful that the original "pagan" or 'heathen' religions have largely disappeared...

Each one represents a facet of life and something to work on.
Yeah, I think I can see that... Though, to be perfectly honest, that whole 'martyrdom' thing that the Catholic Church espoused during the Dark Ages, gives me the chills!!  It was as if there was some bizarre contest to see which 'saint' had had the most arrows stuck into him/her, or the most skin flayed off, or was burned the most slowly, and so on...
And, they have such beautiful buildings.
Girl, I hear you!!! Especially when compared to those squat, ugly little Kingdom halls...
Zid
 
LV101
LV101 5 years ago

Zid --- great post and look forward to more from your church visits.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, DGP!! [waves...!]
OH!! Hi, LV101!! [waves at him, too...!] Thanks!! I think it'll be a fun - er, many fun - experiences!!
'Scuse me, please...
I'm replying to the replies - hopefully in sequence...  (I sure wish there was a cross-eyed "smiley"...)
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi again, DGP!! Very interesting points that you make!!
From a former devout Catholic, Episcopalian = Light Catholic.
Hah! Love it!! Fortuately for me, I was a 'lite' JW - made it easier to get the heck outta there!!
Catholics can go from the cultic, like the Opus Dei, to the very modern. I do not believe in the religion anymore, but it can be a very good social experience.
OOOOOH!! Opus Dei!! I'll have to look up some info on them; I kinda thought that they were a fictional group created just for "The DaVinci Code" - interesting to learn that they're real...
I may add that in the developing world the churches are not necessarily nice buildings. The poorer the community, the poorer the building. Except, of course, if you happen to attend mass in an old church, where the decoration can indeed be magnificent.
I seriously will have to look around this area again. So far, I've just looked at churches within easy driving distance - say, 3 - 10 miles. But this area has some old Spanish areas; not like Santa Fe, you understand, but I suspect that there are some lovely old churches within the city limits. So far, the only ones I've seen are 'suburbia' churches - fairly new and quite bland - though better than a Kingdom Hall... That six-sided Catholic Church had character, even tho it was modern in the extreme.
That said, some people do make an effort to wear their "Sunday" clothes. And some priests do frown on your arriving in informal clothes, or showing a bit too much flesh.
Dressing up can actually be frowned upon. Like you want to show off.
Hah, yes, striking a hopefully happy balance...
I tend to overdress; plus, I'm a bit hefty right now - too many sweets have plunked on the pounds. I'll pretty much have to wear whatever fits me...
I do have one other question, though - in Catholic churches where they don't have those lovely and convenient 'kneeling' pads attached to the pews, can one bring their own kneeling pad???
Thanks!! Zid
 

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Topic Summary
it was very interesting.... of course, the first thing i noticed was the building.
very different from a "kingdom hall" - this catholic church is in an extremely modern, six-sided building.
as one enters the building, their "holy water" font - fountain(???



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First time ever - I attended my first Catholic Mass tonight...
by ziddina 5 years ago 69 Replies latest 6 days ago   jw experiences
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ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Oh, and...
How could I forget?
The one and only MOUTHY!!!
Hi, Lady!!
You said:
Why not go into your room shut the door & ask the one who paid for all our sins
to come into your heart...Instead of all seeking for the right church.
If your a Christian ( a follower of Christ) you are one of the stones that makes up
the CHURCH!!!!So GOD is IN you! in the form of the HOLY SPIRIT!!!!
Please refrain from tossing your rocks at me!!!!
Okay, first of all... Who said I'd throw rocks at you???
'Cause I like you, and I like my rocks, and if I throw them at you, they won't be MY rocks anymore!!!
But that aside...
I'm really not looking for a church; I'm investigating the various churches to see how they compare - in a HUMANIST way - to the Jehovah's Witnesses...
(Psssssst!! I'm an "atheist with Neo-PolyTheist leanings", remember???  So I'm not exactly a "Christian" - had that knocked out of me a LOOOOONG time ago... - by a Middle Eastern volcano, yet!!  )
But thanks for your suggestions!!
Zid
And like WasBlind said, hugs and  for you, not rocks... Mind you, I wouldn't mind it if people threw a few diamonds, emeralds, rubies, sapphires, amethysts, opals, and so on at me...
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Hi, Snoozy!!!
My opinion is that no church has all the answers and none are 100% right. I think what people look for is friendship and a feeling of being closer to god. The witnesses act like they have all the answers and we found out they are wrong..other religions don't act like they have all the answers and are more like a religion should be..there for encouragement and spiritual guidance. Not to judge and berate you for every little thing they think is wrong..
Oh, yes... I totally agree...
Cagefighter said something about the church - churches - acting as a latticework that allows a vine to grow upwards towards the light. I liked that illustration - goes along with what you said about religion acting as encouragement and spiritual guidance, not as judges involved in intense legalism, there to berate and condemn church members for every little thing that people might not be "perfect" in...
I need to go back and look at your second comment...
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Oh, yeah...
About the altar boys - er, kids - and priests...
Yes, I wondered about that too, but I keep in mind that pedophiles will tend towards careers that will provide them with a ready supply of victims - hence the problems that organizations like the "Boy Scouts of America" have also had, with pedophiles infiltrating their ranks...
The best thing that an organization can do, is be vigilant against such threats, with an open investigative policy that incorporates an immediate involvement of law enforcement the MINUTE - nay, the SECOND - that such crimes are discovered. Errr, SUSPECTED...!
Otherwise, one ends up with the enabling climate that has existed both within the Catholic Church AND the Watchtower Society - which allows pedophiles to continue seeking victims with little fear of prosecution for their crimes...
I must say, it appears that the Catholic Church has handled its scandal far better than the Watchtower Society, in that the Catholic Church appears to be taking positive steps to prevent such abuses in the future.
As to whether the Watchtower Society is actually turning over a new leaf in that aspect, or merely making noises only to revert to its original secrecy-shrouded pattern of behavior - well, only time will tell...
But if I had a kid, I'd trust them within the current climate of the Catholic Church before I'd trust them within a Kingdom Hall... Witnesses tend to live in an iron-clad state of denial...
Zid
 
mimimimi
mimimimi 5 years ago

My husband was raised Catholic. After his mother died 16 months ago, we did start attending the Catholic church he grew up in for a while. It really was a "worship" service and I really enjoyed it for a while. When the congregants take communion, if you are not Catholic you can still go up with your hands crossed over your chest and receive a blessing. I enjoyed the feeling that gave me. But after a while, it just became a chore to have to go every Sunday morning. The newness had worn off and I guess I was bored with it. I really don't want to tie myself down to any church and it will be a long time, if ever, that I attend church services again anywhere.
 
dgp
dgp 5 years ago

As to the Opus Dei:
http://freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/o/opus/
http://www.mond.priv.at/opus.dei/
People who leave the Opus Dei complain in pretty much the same terms you Jehovah's witnesses complain about the Watchtower.


in Catholic churches where they don't have those lovely and convenient 'kneeling' pads attached to the pews, can one bring their own kneeling pad???

In my experience, yes, you can. I don't think there is a policy on that.
As to "poor churches" I think churches in the United States are not what I have in mind. Think what churches could be like in Africa. Sometimes Kingdom Halls are pretty in comparison, particularly because they are clean.
I must say, it appears that the Catholic Church has handled its scandal far better than the Watchtower Society, in that the Catholic Church appears to be taking positive steps to prevent such abuses in the future.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I was never abused by any of the many priests I met. I did hear that some of my friends said one priest "used to touch" them, meaning he used to manipulate children's penises. What the church did with Marcial Maciel and the Legion of Christ was awful (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Marcial_Maciel).
On the other hand, there are also priests who won't tolerate this and won't do it. One of my fond memories of my childhood was the Italian father that came to our parish. He was fond of me and wanted to teach me Italian, an offer I should have taken. This priest was a very handsome man, tall and very strong, and with deep blue eyes. I know my mother fancied him . In what became one of the juiciest pieces of gossip of the time, one of the women in the parish came to his office, took her clothes off, and then asked to be "made his woman". The father removed his belt, yes, but it was to beat her with it  and pushed her out of the office. Then he threw his clothes to her. The parish lost one of the faithful workers, indeed. After that, the man won everyone's respect, however.
I must say that same parish saw many priests "step out" with women. Most priests married the women. In one case, the woman didn't want to marry him.
Years later, I saw him again. He was a missionary abroad. He was very much tanned, he looked a lot weaker, and much older. His beard was now white, but he was still the same religious man.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Wow, DGP...
I've often thought that the vows of celibacy would be quite difficult to fulfill for most men... I do admire people who can fulfill their vows, and it's always sad to hear about those who fail or practice hypocrisy behind the facade of the church...
Thanks for the links!! I've got some reading ahead!!
Zid
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 5 years ago

Zid, see your PM.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Aw, do I hafta???
Checking my PM's right now...
 
dgp
dgp 5 years ago

Some priests were able to maintain celibacy. Some others don't, and didn't. Not everything is great in the Catholic Church, but not everything is the way Jehovah's witness are told it is.
 
Watchful-Prayer-Matthew26-41
Watchful-Prayer-Matthew26-41 6 days ago

I'm trying to figure out the mysterious Catholic Mass better... I recently read The Lamb's Supper: the Mass as Heaven on Earth by Scott Hahn (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28883.The_Lamb_s_Supper) ... I'm not on GoodReads anymore so I figure i'll post my thoughts here if you don't mind? :smile: One of the main themes of this book is the focus on the book of Revelations at the end of the Holy Bible... the premise being that Revelations reveals the perpetual Love of God through Holy Communion with believers in the Lamb of God. If anyone else reads it too, I'd be interested in discussing the book with them. Different opinions, thoughts, questions welcome. I'm still learning more myself. I'm sure Jesus didn't suffer in vain, that we don't suffer in vain, but that united to Jesus on the Cross, we commit our spirits to Our Father, glorifying His Name, His Will, His Kingdom. Please write back, let's understand this mystery better together! :smile:
God bless you!
 

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Topic Summary
it was very interesting.... of course, the first thing i noticed was the building.
very different from a "kingdom hall" - this catholic church is in an extremely modern, six-sided building.
as one enters the building, their "holy water" font - fountain(???



Related Topics
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A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 6 months ago
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Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
KiddingMe
Police: Teen killed in N.Y. church assault wanted out
by KiddingMe 5 months ago
OrphanCrow
Deaf Aotearoa flooded with complaints about Jehovah's Witness church
by OrphanCrow 5 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago



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http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/207904/first-time-ever-attended-my-first-catholic-mass-tonight?page=4&size=20