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The History of Apocalyptic Movements
by nvrgnbk 8 years ago 12 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

I encountered this information a few years back and it affected me deeply as I was struggling to wake up from the apocalyptic movement known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
It was prepared and presented by Jim Moyers , an ex-Adventist.
It's lengthy.
IMO, it's essential reading for any current doubting JW's or anyone considering joining their ranks.
Note the comments about William Miller, an Adventist that had a huge impact on the father of JWism and the Bible Students, C.T. Russell.
Enjoy!
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejcmmsm/SDApocalyptic.html
THE APOCALYPTIC BACKGROUND OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH
Zoroaster to William Miller 1
(For References & Footnotes Click on Reference Numbers
Use "Back" on Browser to Return to Text)
By Jim Moyers

The Fall of the Rebel Angels, Bruegel the Elder d.1569
PLEASE NOTE: While some conservative Christians may object to what follows, in this and other pages on this site it is not my intention to attack the Seventh-day Adventist Church or any other religious organization. I have no interest in arguing with those individuals who are happy in their beliefs and made uncomfortable by anything that seems to threaten what they believe to be true. As a former Adventist with academic training in religious studies, I am fascinated by the history of apocalyptic religious movements. This article is an attempt to share, with anyone who may be interested, what I have learned about the historical development of the end time beliefs that are such an important part of Adventist teachings.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church is first and foremost an apocalyptic movement. Most of the teachings that set it apart from the rest of Christianity are derived from the apocalyptic books of Daniel and Revelation. The word "apocalyptic" comes from a Greek word meaning "to uncover or reveal." 2 Originally it referred to a type of Judeo-Christian literature, most of which was written between 200 BC and 100 AD. In symbolic and enigmatic language, apocalyptic texts describe history in terms of an unfolding divine plan that is about to culminate via a supernatural intervention into the course of worldly affairs. God's people will soon be vindicated, and evil forever eradicated from the cosmos. Many apocalyptic writings were attributed to famous legendary or historic figures to whom the hidden meaning of current and historical earthly events was said to have been revealed via visionary experience.
Jewish apocalyptic tradition, well established by the time of Jesus, had a strong influence on early Christianity 3 which in turn produced an apocalyptic literature of its own. While many (one first century AD source mentions seventy Jewish apocalypses, most of which have been lost) apocalyptic books are known to have been extant in the early Christian era, only two, the Old Testament book of Daniel and the New Testament book of Revelation (or The Apocalypse), are included in the Protestant canon of the Bible. There are, however, some other apocalyptic texts that have been regarded as scripture by other Christians. The Apocrypha, which consists of books included in the Greek Septuagint but not the Hebrew version of Jewish scriptures, includes the apocalyptic book of Second Esdras. I Enoch (also known as First Enoch and Ethiopic Enoch) and the Book of Jubilees are included in the scriptures used by some Eastern churches.
Ancient Persian Origins of Apocalyptic Thought
Many historians of religion trace the roots of apocalyptic thinking to ancient Iran and the Zoroastrian religion founded by the Persian prophet Zoroaster (Zarathustra in Greek) some time between 1200 and 600 BC (the date is disputed). Most ancient traditions, including earliest Judaism, regarded time as essentially static, with little or no significant change occurring beyond that of the continually repeated cycles of nature. Tension between creation and the chaos from which it had, according to creation myths, emerged was represented as an ongoing conflict between the two realms. Chaos in the form of a universal flood, consuming fire, or terrible monster (such as Leviathan mentioned in Job) periodically threatened to destroy the created realm. Some traditions, most notably in India, extended the naturally occurring cycles of light and dark, birth and death to make the cosmos in its entirety subject to eternally repeated cycles of destruction and recreation. Mythic heroes and gods of various sorts defended the ordered world by holding the agents of chaos at bay. Traces of such combat myths, as scholars have labeled them, can be found throughout apocalyptic writings, as in the war between Michael and the dragon depicted in Revelation 12 and 13. 4 But most ancient traditions of primal conflict between chaos and order contained little suggestion of a final resolution of the conflict.
Zoroaster was apparently the first religious figure to describe time as linear, with a singular beginning and an equally singular end. Some scholars believe that he was also the first monotheist. In teachings based on his visionary experience, Zoroaster elevated Ahura Mazda, one of many deities in the ancient Iranian pantheon, to supreme status as the one and only preexistent god, the creator of all that is good in the universe. Opposing Ahura Mazda, actively seeking to destroy good, is Angra Mainyu. History is the manifest struggle between the primal forces of evil and good as personified by these two beings. Time in the Zoroastrian schema is neither static nor circular, but a dynamic process moving continually towards a final end. The struggle between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu takes place within "limited time." The predestined triumph of good will mark the end of limited time, and the beginning of a blissful eternity in a universe forever free of even the possibility of evil. The culminating events of history, according to Zoroaster, will include the appearance of a savior born of a virgin, resurrection of the dead, and divine judgment. 5
By the sixth century BC, Zoroastrianism, which was initially persecuted as a threat to established polytheistic religion, had become the state religion of the Persian empire that ruled most of the peoples of the ancient Mideast, including the Jews. Many religious studies scholars see Zoroastrian influence in many aspects of Judaism as it coalesced in the post-exilic period. It is no coincidence that the ancient Zoroastrian account of a "great controversy" between the forces of good and evil has parallels with Seventh-day Adventist teachings.
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

cont...
Prophecy in Judaism
The oldest Hebrew prophetic tradition was not apocalyptic. Prophets like Elijah, Samuel, Nathan and the mysterious "sons of the prophets" are depicted as "men of God" who, through ecstatic trance states, gained special access to the divine. They served as messengers conveying instruction and warning to individuals as well as to the nation of Israel. Sometimes they acted as social reformers in opposition to wicked rulers. These early prophets, who appear throughout the historical narratives of Samuel, Kings, and, Chronicles, left no writings that have survived. The earliest extant prophetic writings date from after the division of ancient Israel into two kingdoms, and are primarily concerned with punishments visited on a wayward Israel in a time when God's supposedly chosen people repeatedly found themselves at the mercy of more powerful nations. 6
After the death of Solomon about 926 BC, internal strife split Israel into northern and southern factions. By the end of the eighth century the northern kingdom of Israel had been overrun by the Neo-Assyrian Empire, with the Israelite ruling class deported to various parts of the Empire to be absorbed into the local population. 7 A few decades later the southern kingdom, Judea, suffered a similar fate at the hands of the Neo-Babylonian king , Nebuchadnezzar.
In 587 BC Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple built by Solomon. The Judean social and intellectual elite along with their families were deported to Babylon to serve their new rulers. Israel's existence as an independent nation blessed by God had apparently come to an end. The first Hebrew apocalypse, contained in Ezekiel, dates from this time. In richly symbolic visions the prophet is shown that the national disaster was a divine chastisement for a people who had turned away from the one true God. But their troubles would soon come to an end, with a repentant Israel, "in the latter days," resurrected and a terrible vengeance visited upon its heathen enemies. 8
The writer of Isaiah chapters 40-55 9 depicts the Persian king, Cyrus the Great, as God's "shepherd," "his anointed" (messiah) 10 foreordained to deliver the exiles from their Babylonian captivity. The Northern Israelites who had been carried away by the Assyrians would return to join their southern kin in a reunited nation. A gloriously restored Israel and its God would thereby be vindicated in the eyes of all other nations.
This prophecy was based on what seemed to be promising developments. In 538 BC Cyrus, in the course of establishing an empire greater than all its predecessors , overthrew the Neo-Babylonians. Following the Persian imperial policy of allowing subject nations a high degree of autonomy, the Israelite exiles were allowed to return home with imperial funds allocated for rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem. Many scholars believe this second exodus, as it is represented by Isaiah, marks the beginning of Judaism as a firmly monotheistic religion with no tolerance for the previously extensive polytheistic practices evidenced in biblical as well as archaeological data.
It seemed for a while as if God's chosen people would finally receive the reward that had long been promised them. But while the temple was rebuilt amid strife with polytheistic peasants who had not been deported by Nebuchadnezzar, the ten northern tribes failed to reappear as foretold, no other nation acknowledged the supremacy of Israel and its God, and the majority of the exiles chose to remain in Babylon which, contrary to prophetic predictions, was not laid waste by Cyrus. In addition, a number of other Jewish colonies were established outside of Palestine. Many Jews, in and out of the Holy Land, made compromises with the dominate culture. Far from becoming the prophesied center of the cosmos, Judea remained a tiny impoverished and powerless province in a vast empire ruled by idolaters. Yet its prophets continued to foretell a glorious future when God would rule from Jerusalem over an earth "full of the knowledge of the Lord" where "the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid." 11
About two hundred years after the fall of Babylon to the Persians, Alexander the Great defeated the Persians. Greek culture and colonization followed in the wake of Alexander's armies, with the boundaries of the Hellenistic world extended eastward all the way to India. After the early death of Alexander, his empire was divided between four continually quarreling dynasties of Greek descent. While Greek rulers, like the Persians before them, were for the most part tolerant of local customs, the inevitable intrusion of foreign rule and culture was widely resented by native peoples. This resentment found expression in many subjugated cultures via pseudonymous writings that claimed to have been written in ancient times to foretell future events which always featured overthrow of the alien oppressor. Egyptian prophecies of political emancipation were back dated to the reigns of pharaohs long since dead. A Persian prophecy foretelling the downfall of the foreign ruler was supposedly authored by a contemporary of Zoroaster. Jewish prophetic writings went beyond political liberation, depicting history as an ongoing manifestation of conflict between God's plan for his chosen people and evil opposing forces.. The present world would soon come to an end in a cosmic upheaval ushering in the eternal unopposed reign of God. The long suffering people of Israel at last be vindicated. 12
Persecution by Antiochus Epiphanes
Meanwhile Judea struggled along as a vassal kingdom caught between rival Hellenistic dynasties, making and unmaking alliances in a desperate attempt to survive as a semi autonomous state. With the division of Alexander's empire, Judea initially came under the rule of the Ptolemaic dynasty based in Egypt. Then in 198 BC, Antiochus the Great of the Syrian Seleucid dynasty wrestled control of Judea away from the Ptolemaics. Taxes were increased and temple treasures seized to pay for the cost of Antiochus' war. In 174 BC Antiochus IV Epiphanes gained the Seleucid throne through murderous intrigue, and created an even worse nightmare for the Jews.
Antiochus, nicknamed "Epimanes" or "the madman" by the Jews, broke with the usual Greek practice of noninterference with traditional religions by taking advantage of factions within the Jewish power structure that were friendly to Hellenistic culture. He deposed the hereditary high priest who presided over the temple in Jerusalem, replacing him with a Hellenized Jew who had bought the office. The new high priest built a Greek gymnasium where men, following a Greek custom that was an abomination to traditional Jews, exercised in the nude. Some Jews identified with the dominant culture, going so far as to attempt to reverse their circumcisions to blend in with Gentiles at the gymnasium. Others were outraged and rejoiced when false reports of Antiochus' death while campaigning in Egypt were circulated. Emboldened by the rumor, the deposed high priest attempted to regain power. Antiochus, who was issuing coins stamped with his image and the inscription Antiochus Theos Epiphanes - "Antiochus God made manifest," responded by pillaging Jerusalem Forty thousand Jews were said to have been slaughtered, and many more sold into slavery. The temple was plundered for its remaining treasures.
In 167 Antiochus was humiliated when Roman intervention forced him to give up his designs on Egypt, and seemingly took out his anger on the Jews. The Jewish religion was outlawed, the temple profaned, and the sacred scrolls destroyed. Jerusalem was burned with its city walls demolished. Many Jews managed to flee to the desert. Those who remained and refused to forsake their religion were killed or sold into slavery. Worst of all, the image of a pagan god was installed in the temple, and swine were sacrificed to it. This was the gravest crisis for Judaism since the Babylonian captivity and would not be matched until the Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
While many Jews did give up their beliefs and unique identity, others chose to fight back. A revolt was led by a father and his five sons, members of a priestly family who fled Jerusalem after killing a Hellenized Jew who was performing a sacrifice on the pagan altar. One of the sons, Judas, nicknamed Maccabaeus - "The Hammer", proved to be an outstanding battlefield commander, and the revolt is remembered in history as the Maccabaean rising. Seemingly blessed by God, the Jews won one victory after another against the far stronger Seleucid state. In 164, three and a half years after its desecration, the temple was liberated and Jewish sacrifice restored. About the same time Antiochus died, apparently insane, in far off Persia. Descendants of the Maccabees, the Hasmonaeans, ruled Judea amid internal as well as external strife, with constantly shifting political alliances and compromises with Hellenism, until Pompey made it a Roman province in 63 BC. 13
Daniel
Most Biblical scholars not bound to a literalist interpretation of the Bible, agree that the book of Daniel, which is of huge importance in Adventist eschatology, was written in its present form sometime around 167 BC as a response to Antiochus' persecution. By combining traditional, likely already extent, stories of faithfulness to Jewish practices during earlier persecution by the Babylonians with prophecies of better times to come, the writer of Daniel provided reassurance that the present time of trouble would soon come to an end. The faithful would receive their due reward, and their enemies would be destroyed.
This view of Daniel will come as news to most Seventh-day Adventists who, like many conservative Christians, have been taught that it was written by a man of that name who was, as depicted in the narratives of the book, a Jewish exile active in the Babylonian, Median, and Persian courts prior to the return to Jerusalem. In Adventist teaching, the visions of Daniel symbolically depict historical events from the time of the Babylonian captivity to the Second Coming of Christ, with an emphasis on those that will immediately preceed the culmination of history. This reading, however, does not hold up very well under scrutiny.
There are a number of compelling reasons for assigning a second century BC date to Daniel. The court narratives included in the book make many mistakes in recounting historical events, mistakes that someone active in the royal court, as the author of Daniel is said to have been, would have been unlikely to make. Daniel's accounts of the dynasties and empires with which the prophet is supposed to be officially associated differ from what is known from other sources, including other books of the Bible. The Medes, who Daniel has succeeding the Babylonians as a world empire, were actually contemporaneous with the Neo-Babylonian empire and were conquered by the Persians a decade before the fall of Babylon to the Persians. Darius the Mede, who Daniel represents as the conqueror of Babylon but is otherwise unknown to history, seems to be confused with Cyrus the Persian who actually overthrew both the Median and Neo-Babylonian empires. Daniel's apparent invention of Darius may represent an attempt to bring the account into harmony with Isaiah 13:17-19, 21:2 and Jeremiah 51:11 which predict that the Medes will destroy Babylon.
In Hebrew scriptures Daniel is put in the Hagiographa or "Writings" rather than with the Prophets. This seems to indicate a late date for Daniel, as Jewish tradition considers that the prophetic books closed in the fifth century BC with the composition of Malachi. The apocryphal book of Ecclesiasticus or Sirach, written about 180 BC, contains a long section (chapters 44-50) in praise of "famous men" from Jewish history that does not include Daniel. However I Maccabees, composed about 100 BC, repeats much of that list with the addition of Daniel and the three youths in the fiery furnace, leading to the conclusion that these stories were likely added to Hebrew literature sometime after 180 BC. 14
Other Jewish Apocalyptic Writings
While parts of I Enoch also seem to reflect the Antiochan persecution, the book is represented as the composition of Enoch, the antediluvian who, according to Genesis 5:21-24 "having walked with God, . . . was seen no more, because God had taken him away." I Enoch was well known in the centuries before and after Christ, and seems to have been regarded as scriptural by many in the early church. Although not included in the official canon of Hebrew scriptures as established towards the end of the first century AD, I Enoch was widely quoted by early Christian writers, including the author of Jude. Only in the fourth century, largely due to the influence of the Catholic fathers Jerome and Augustine, was it excluded from the canon of the Western Church. The Eastern Church, however, continued to hold it in high esteem for several more centuries. Before the discovery of eleven fragmentary manuscripts of I Enoch among the the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran, the oldest and still most complete manuscript was an Ethiopic translation made sometime between the fourth and sixth century AD for the Ethiopian Christian Church.
The mystical figure of Enoch also appears in the Book of Jubilees as a prophet to whom events preceding the Last Judgment were revealed. Jubilees claims to be a secret revelation given to Moses by angels on Mount Sinai. While the narrative is primarily a midrash or amplification of events from Creation through the Exodus, prophecies of an impending end are interwoven with accounts of the past. Events such as the Flood are represented as foreshadowing the destruction soon to come. Unlike I Enoch, which appears to be a compilation of works composed between the fourth century BC and the first century AD, Jubilees is regarded by many scholars as the work of a single author writing sometime between 175 and 140 BC. Jubilees was also revered by the Ethiopian Church, in whose Bible it still appears, and is known primarily through an Ethiopic translation. It too was included in the Qumran library, and is cited as authoritative in the Qumran sect's own writings.
I Enoch and Jubilees, more than any parts of the canonical Hebrew Scriptures, present a clear picture of a Last Judgment as the culminating event of world history. God's Law is represented as a universal, all embracing order by which the actions of angels as well as humans, Jew and Gentile alike, will be judged. This is something that goes well beyond the concept of the Law as depicted in the Hebrew Bible, but closely resembles ideas that would appear in Christian tradition. 15 The Messiah, clearly a human being in earlier Hebrew writings, is depicted in 1 Enoch as a transcendent supernatural being who acts as the primary agent in the destruction of the wicked and subsequent purification of the earth. But as the "Son of Man" he is also in some mysterious way human. 16
It is no accident that apocalyptic literature was included in the library of the Qumran group. The discovery in 1947 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, as the collection found in caves near the ancient ruins of Qumran is popularly called, gave scholars a new window into Judaism as it existed in the inter testament period. While there continues to be debate over the nature of the community that collected and in some cases apparently authored the scrolls, most scholars see parallels with the Essenes, an ascetic group known to have been active in Judea at the time. The Qumran sect claimed to be the "remnant" of Israel. Their strict adherence to the Law led to separation from the Jerusalem religious establishment which in their eyes had compromised the purity of Judaism by making alliances with "the ungodly." The group was clearly apocalyptic in its expectation of a fast approaching end time when the "rule of righteousness" in the temple would be restored through the final triumph of "the sons of light "over "the sons of darkness." But, in a pattern that would be tragically repeated by many other apocalyptic groups from ancient to modern times, they came to a unexpected and disastrous end in 68 AD at the hands of the Roman army on its way to Jerusalem to begin the siege that would end in the destruction of the Temple. 17
Jesus and Early Christian Apocalypticism
While they were contemporaries of the Qumran sect, there is no real evidence that either Jesus or his predecessor John the Baptist had any direct connection with the group. The exact nature of Jesus and the Jesus movement, as scholars have titled earliest Christianity, continues to be extensively debated by historians of religion. As seems to have been true from the very beginnings of recorded response to the enigmatic figure of Jesus,18 people tend to project their own preconceptions onto an image that historical documentation has left distressingly vague. Until recently the scholarly establishment viewed apocalyptic tradition with some disdain as a very minor, fringe element in Judeo-Christian tradition. But the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, among other things, has brought about a shift in perception to the point that it is now widely recognized that "the apocalyptic communities of the last centuries B. C. were a major force in the complex matrix in which both Christianity and rabbinic Judaism were born. . . In (an) interval of more than five hundred years, Jewish apocalypticism was a mainstream of religious life as well as speculation. . . There can be no doubt that the apocalyptic movement was one of the ancestors of both Pharisaic Judaism and Jewish Christianity, as well as of the Gnostic syncretism that characterized both movements in the first century of the Common Era." 19
As represented in the gospel accounts, Jesus' and John the Baptist's proclamation of a soon coming Kingdom is plainly apocalyptic in nature. The earliest extant Christian literature, the epistles of Paul, intermingle apocalyptic expectancies with concerns for the earthly well being of a rapidly expanding Christian community. The earliest written gospel of Mark, in the "little apocalypse" of the thirteenth chapter, describes a time of "distress such as never has been until now since the beginning of the world" when false messiahs will appear and "celestial powers will be shaken," all of which will lead up to the coming of the "Son of Man in clouds with great power and glory (to) gather his chosen from the four winds." This was all to happen while the first generation of Christians was still alive to be taken directly to heaven without tasting death.
But time went by with neither Jesus' return nor the end of the world occurring. Eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus began to age and die, perhaps giving impetus to the long delayed writing of the gospel narratives. The gulf between Christianity and its Jewish origins grew. After the destruction of the temple in AD 70, many Jewish sects, like the Essenes, disappeared as Judaism consolidated into a distinctly orthodox form. Other forms of Judaism, including those Christians who continued to identify themselves as Jewish, were denounced as heretics.
The Revelation of John
As Christianity, or "The Way" as its followers apparently referred to it, 20 spread beyond Palestine, it began to attract official notice, and opposition. While the Jewish rebellions of the first and second century brought down the wrath of Rome on Jerusalem, Jews had long been officially recognized as monotheists exempt from the nominal acknowledgment of the Roman pantheon required of the Empire's subjects. As Jews, the earliest Christians could safely avoid making token sacrifices to pagan gods and the cult of the emperor. But as the gulf between Christianity and Judaism grew, Christians, with no official recognition of their monotheistic beliefs, lost this protection. While the date of the first organized persecution of Christians by the Romans is disputed by historians, 21 t here was a well developed antagonism in place by the end of the first century.
Some scholars believe that parts of Revelation were written shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem, with the rest of the book completed by the end of the first century. Some think that it may originally have been a Jewish work that was revised by a Christian. Certainly many passages of Revelation are clearly lifted from Hebrew scripture and reworked to fit a Christian world view. In any case, Revelation as we have it depicts Rome as the enemy of God's people, the new spiritual remnant of Israel formed by the believers in Christ. God's cosmic order is repeatedly contrasted with the worldly and satanic rule of Rome which will shortly undertake a terrible persecution of the saints. As in the second century BC, when Daniel's Babylonian oppressors stood in for Antiochus, so in Revelation Rome as the antagonist of Christianity is represented by Babylon. Oppressed peoples often resort to coded language. Perhaps it was safer for the authors of Daniel and Revelation to substitute an enemy from the past for the all too present current foe. Romans would be unlikely to see any harm in obscure references to a long vanished nation. But Christians, still closely connected with their Jewish roots, would have immediately recognized what was really meant. 22
Revelation describes the final struggle between God and Satan, with Satan and his earthly agent, Rome, doing their best to destroy those who resist the hegemony of evil. Fantastic beasts like those from the visions of Daniel represent the demonic foes, and the temporal course of events is described using enigmatic numbers again similar to those found in Daniel. In the end, of course, God prevails. The kingdom of Satan, "Babylon the Great," is finally and completely destroyed with "Death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire." In one of the most stirring passages to be found in scripture, the New Jerusalem is described as descending from heaven to an earth restored to Edenic splendor in which the righteous will dwell with God "forever and forever." Unlike Daniel who is instructed to "seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence," John is told, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." 23
Almost from its inception, Revelation has been the most controversial book of the New Testament canon. It has repeatedly gone in and out of favor in parallel with shifts between hostility to the established worldly order and accommodation. Extant second century Christian writings, written during a time of escalating antagonism between the pagan Empire and its Christian subjects, cite Revelation more often than any other New Testament book. But several early church fathers questioned whether it was worthy of inclusion in the canon. Many objected to Revelation's representation of Christ's millennial reign on earth as something that appears nowhere else in scripture. Questions were expressed about Revelation's authorship, which some claimed could be traced to a Gnostic heretic . 24
Extensive use of Revelation by the adherents of the late second century Montanist heresy led to further doubts about its suitability for inclusion in the canon. Montanus, accompanied by two women who claimed to be prophetically inspired by the Holy Spirit, traveled about Asia Minor announcing that the Second Coming would soon occur with the millennium to follow. The New Jerusalem would descend from heaven to a place not far from the city of Philadelphia (where the local church had been commended for its zeal by the writer of Revelation). Montanism quickly grew into a mass movement, with multitudes of people abandoning worldly affairs to prepare for the world to come. Spirit possessed Montanists spoke prophetic utterances over which they claimed to have no conscious control. Unlike the orthodox church, Montanists recognized women as clergy as well as prophets. As would repeatedly be the case with apocalyptic-prophetic movements throughout Christian history, the orthodox clergy denounced the Montanists, who promptly formed their own church which flourished for some time in Asia Minor outside of the urban settings in which orthodoxy was firmly established. 25
Despite all the reservations, the (questionable) tradition of John the Apostle as its author eventually won Revelation a place in the canon. A number of other early Christian apocalyptic works were attributed to figures such as Peter, Paul, John, and Mary. In addition, several Jewish apocalypses were edited to fit Christian thinking. While some of these works were included in early lists of books regarded as scripture, Revelation was the only apocalyptic work included in the final form of the New Testament as it was established in the fourth century.
Augustine to the Enlightenment
By the fourth century Christianity was well on its way to becoming the established religion of the Roman Empire. The notion of a violent clash between this world and the next had less appeal for Christians who were increasingly the beneficiaries of worldly position and power. Augustine of Hippo's great fifth century work, The City of God, set the Church firmly in the context of contemporary earthly events, with the Second Coming, Resurrection, and Last Judgment in the far distant future. Apocalyptic texts were to be read as allegories of the life to come, rather than literally applied to current earthly events.
But speculation about the nearness of the end of the world continued, with tension between a well established politically powerful Church and apocalyptic expectations in less advantaged sectors of the the body of believers an ongoing dynamic in Christendom. The end seemed near in difficult times, but tended to recede as an active concern when things were good. A century after Augustine, a series of natural disasters, plagues, political turmoil, and wars led Pope Gregory I to observe, "The world grows old and hoary and hastens to its approaching end." 26 Despite Augustine's urging of an allegorical reading, Revelation continued to be interpreted literally during the Middle Ages with contemporary events of various sorts repeatedly cited as foretold signs of the approaching End and millennial movements repeatedly emerging to disturb the establishment. 27 Apocalyptic events were a favorite theme in medieval and renaissance art.
Apocalypticism was particularly attractive to those on the margins of society or critical of the established order. The Spiritual Franciscans, whose dedication to poverty and strict observance of religious injunctions was a direct rebuke to the wealthy rulers of the Church, firmly believed that the end was neigh. Many medieval heretics preached a radical apocalyptic message. In the fourteenth century, early reformers such as Wycliffe and Huss identified the Roman Catholic Church with the beast of Revelation and the pope with the antichrist. While Luther made ample use of apocalyptic imagery in his denunciation of Rome and believed the Second Coming was near, he regarded the book of Revelation as "neither apostolic nor prophetic." His German translation of the Bible separated Revelation from the rest of the New Testament by putting it in an appendix.
As the Reformation and its attendant religious wars tore apart the political and social fabric of Western Europe, apocalyptic expectancies increased. Radical movements and leaders who believed themselves ordained to bring about the coming kingdom of God emerged to challenge the authority of Protestant and Catholic leaders alike. 28 In 1525, a German apocalyptist led an army of peasants in a disastrous revolt that ended in their slaughter. Luther, perhaps having some second thoughts about the priesthood of all believers, supported the killing of the revolutionaries and other dissenters who seemed to be springing up everywhere in the wake of the Reformation. In 1534 an Anabaptist millennial sect gained control of the German city of Munster, and quickly instituted a reign of terror. Catholics and Lutherans alike were expelled as the city was proclaimed the New Jerusalem. In a scenario uncannily parallel to the tragic events that ended with the fiery death of the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas in 1993, a charismatic tailor succeeded the first leader of the sect after he was hacked to death when he ventured outside the city, and declared himself the King and Messiah of the Last Days. Initial advocacy of sexual puritanism was replaced by a proclamation that God had reinstituted polygamy along with sexual license, at least for the leader who acquired a harem of teenage wives. While he was arrayed in magnificent robes, the ordinary citizens of Munster were to live in poverty until the Second Coming which would occur only after all the priests, monks, and rulers in the world, along with all opponents in Munster, had been killed. The city held out for several months against a siege by the authorities until famine finally rendered the Anabaptists too feeble to resist. The sect members were quickly killed, except for the leader who was led around on a chain before being tortured to death. 29
Religious struggles in England produced an amazing number of millennial movements. During the English Civil War, Cromwell's New Model Army drew inspiration from Revelation for their self appointed task of establishing the New Jerusalem in England. By the middle of the seventeenth century, "Baptists and Anabaptists, Levelers, Diggers, Socinians, Ranters, Quakers, Muggletonians (named after a man who claimed to be one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3), and all sorts of popular utopian millenarians, (all proclaiming themselves) the stoutest foes of Antichrist, were busy preparing Christ's kingdom." 30 The Fifth Monarchy Men, believing themselves called to establish the fifth kingdom described in Daniel 2:44 , briefly gained control of Parliament and issued an apocalyptic declaration from the House of Commons. But they quickly fell from favor to be remembered primarily as the instigators of a few violent civil disturbances.
With the Restoration of the English monarchy, the chaos created by millennial movements came to an abrupt end. To ensure that such disorders would not occur again, speculation about the Second Coming was made a criminal offense in England. On the continent, millennial expectations faded as the Thirty Years War, initially thought by many to be Armageddon, reduced the combatants to a state of exhaustion that eventually ended the conflict. The focus of apocalyptic expectations shifted from spiritual, other worldly conflict to the efforts of humanity to establish a "goodly kingdom" in which the millennium would unfold on earth. In New England, Puritans established their "city on the hill" as an example of a Christian society that they earnestly hoped would spread back to their homeland and eventually encompass the world.
Enlightenment humanists and deists raised questions about the necessity of divine intervention in establishing the rule of right. In their view humanity unaided by deity would continue to move forward to achieve the perfect society. Others, such as the Quakers, believed that the Second Coming was a purely spiritual phenomena occurring in present time within the heart of the believer. Pessimistic visions of the End generally faded away before expectations of a bright future brought about by human progress. Post millenarianism, the idea that the Second Coming would occur after an earthly millennium of enlightenment, peace, and harmony, became the predominant Christian view. This was especially so in America, where many believed that the new Republic represented the triumph of the godly prophesied in the Bible. 31
William Miller and the Millerite Movement
Born in 1782, William Miller 32 grew up on the then frontier of upstate New York. Although raised a Baptist, as a young man Miller came to have doubts about the truthfulness of the Bible. As did many at the time, he became a deist who believed that while God created the world, he does not directly intervene in the course of natural and human affairs. But while serving in the War of 1812, Miller began to feel that God was actively watching over the United States as he had Israel in biblical times. Coming home after the war, he experienced a spiritual crisis that led him back to the Baptist Church. Challenged by a deist friend on his regained faith, Miller decided to study the Bible for himself to find whether or not it was what it claimed to be. Two years of intense study using only his Bible's marginal references and a concordance in addition to the Bible itself convinced Miller that, as the Bible itself stated, "all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, . . . for instruction." 33
As a result of his studies, Miller concluded that post millenarianism was not scriptural. The Second Coming of Christ would occur prior to the millennium, and was in fact very near at hand. The so-called twenty three hundred days prophecy of Daniel 8:14 - "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"34 - provided Miller with the key to the time of the End. In determining the date, Miller drew upon a long established tradition that a day in Biblical prophecy represents an actual year. 35 By cleansing of the sanctuary, he understood the purification of the earth by fire that would accompany the Second Coming. On the basis of other verses in Daniel, Miller took 457 BC, the year of the Persian decree to rebuild Jerusalem, as the starting point of the prophetic time line. Two thousand three hundred years from that date would be 1843, when he expected the Last Judgment would occur.
While he shared his conclusions with friends and neighbors, Miller was initially reluctant to publicly proclaim his message. Then in 1831 he was invited to preach at a service in Dresden, Vermont, where the congregation persuaded him to stay for a week to tell them more. In the 1830's upstate New York and Western Vermont was in the midst of religious fervor, with one religious or reform movement after another sweeping through so often that the area became known as the "burnt over" district. Miller's message found ready ears among people who were already open to religious contagion. In 1839 Joshua V. Hines, a young abolitionist minister with a flair for public relations, joined Miller to turn the message of an impending End into a mass movement, "one of hundreds of strange religious experiences that occurred all across the United States from the 1820's through the 1840's." 36
Estimates of the number of Millerites range from ten thousand to over one million. Whatever the exact numbers, Miller's message within a few years spread throughout New England and the Mid Atlantic States. Scores of other ministers from virtually all of the evangelical denominations of the day took up the "midnight cry" warning of the impending End. Some of the most adamant Millerites were abolitionists and other social reformers who, giving up hopes of changing the present world, turned their attention to a better world to come. Despite the opposition that they sometimes experienced from the religious establishment, most of Miller's followers continued their membership in the churches to which they already belonged. Not until the final year of the movement, with the established churches increasingly in opposition, did the Millerites declare the rejecting churches "spiritual Babylon" and, echoing a verse from Revelation, issue a call to "come out of her my people."
While others proposed dates based on various readings of prophecy and history, Miller from the first steadfastly refused to set a definite date for the End, simply stating that it would occur sometime around 1843. But as 1843 drew near, Miller, pressured to name a more specific time, stated a belief that Jesus would return to the earth sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, the beginning and ending dates of the Jewish year. 1843 saw much excitement, with itinerant Millerites preaching to great masses. The appearance of a comet visible in day light seemed a certain "sign in the heaven," a great many more, some highly improbable, of which were reported. 37 Meanwhile, ridicule poured from the popular press, with Miller inspiring what would become the stock cartoon figure of a bearded prophet carrying a sign bearing the legend, "The End Is Near."
As the year rolled by with no apparent divine intrusion into the course of earthly affairs, the ridicule grew along with the Millerites' ardor. When the vernal equinox of 1844 came and went as had any other day, the Millerites rallied around the idea of a "tarrying time" that, as in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, would separate those who were truly prepared from those whose faith was lacking. As has been repeatedly demonstrated in various movements, such a disconfirming experience, far from convincing believers that they are wrong, often tends to strengthen the group as it reshapes its interpretations to incorporate the seemingly discordant data into its belief system. 38
Samuel S. Snow, an eccentric Millerite preacher who would later go about in white robes declaring himself to be Elijah the Prophet, claimed that God the Father had revealed to him that the Second Coming would occur on October 22, 1844, a date he (erroneously) believed to be the Jewish Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) as observed by the Karaite sect. 39 Snow convinced many Millerites that the delayed "Bridegroom" (Jesus) would finally arrive on that day. Millerite leaders, including Miller and Hines, continued to express doubts about the date until late September, by which time it was "spreading over the land like a prairie wildfire." 40 While some continued to express reservations, most Millerites firmly believed that the end of their earthly toils would occur on October 22. The October 22 date gave a new focus to a movement in which serious divisions had begun to appear. While there is no evidence anyone made "ascension robes," as was reported by the press, many Millerites saw no need to harvest fall crops, tend their business, or make other preparations for a future earthly life beyond October. Earthly business was superseded by preparation for "the Great Day of the Lord."
But October 22, 1844, which every Seventh-day Adventist school child learns as the date of the "Great Disappointment," came and went with no visible change in the course of earthly affairs. Devastated by the apparent failure of prophecy, the Millerite movement broke apart. While many gave up their hopes to return to mainstream churches, others remained steadfast in the conviction that the Second Coming was about to occur. The largest body of the movement formed the Advent Christian Church which still exists. Some joined the Shakers who regarded the Second Coming as a spiritual event that had already occurred in the person of their founder. A small group came to believe that, while October 22 was the correct date, a heavenly rather than earthly event had been foretold by Daniel's prophecy. In their understanding, Jesus on that day entered into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary to begin what they came to term the "Investigative Judgment" as a prelude to the Final Judgment that was yet to come on an unspecified but not far distant date. This belief, unique in Christianity, was the foundation of what would eventually become the Seventh-day Adventist Church. With a worldwide membership approaching eleven million, it is today the largest extant Millerite based group. Like their forebears, Seventh-day Adventists believe themselves to be the divinely chosen "remnant people," spiritual heirs to the ancient apocalyptic vision of a better world to come.41




Notes(To return to text click "Back" on browser)
1 This essay is based on historical documentation and thus differs from the way a conservative Christian would approach its subject matter. Within conservative Christianity, the Bible is assumed to have a primary authority that by definition cannot be contradicted. For the historian of religion, scripture is only one among many sources of information, and is not necessarily the most reliable witness.
A useful distinction can be made between historical fact and matters of faith. That Jesus was a religious teacher in first century Palestine who was executed is a historical fact that few reputable scholars would dispute. That Jesus was the Son of God who rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and will return to redeem those who believe in him is a matter of faith that historical inquiry can neither prove nor disprove. While it is important to keep this distinction in mind, there are instances when the facts of history and matters of faith clash. Nowhere is this more the case than in apocalyptic tradition with its claim that history itself will soon end with the establishment of the Kingdom of God.
2 American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1980), p. 61.
3 For instance, Jude 6-16 draws from non-canonical Jewish apocalyptic literature, with verses 14-15 a direct quote from Enoch 1:9.
4 Norman Cohn, Cosmos, Chaos, and the World to Come: The Ancient Roots of Apocalyptic Faith (New Haven & London: Yale University Press, 1993), pp. 214-216. Much of my account of early apocalypticism is based on Cohn.
5 ibid., pp. 77-104.
6 Samuel Sandmel, The Hebrew Scriptures: An Introduction to Their Literature and Religious Ideas (New York: Oxford University Press, 1978), pp. 43-151.
7 These "ten lost tribes" live on in wild speculations about their fate and continued existence. One of the most persistent has them somehow migrating to ancient Britain to become the "Anglo-Israelites." This idea in various forms is popular with several right wing militia groups, and has touched some extremist Adventists.
 8 Sandmel, pp. 152-168. Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief In Modern American Culture, (Cambridge and London: Harvard University Press, 1992), pp. 24-26.
 9 It is generally accepted that the second part of Isaiah, referred to as Second Isaiah, was composed after the time of the eighth century prophet of chapters 1-31. See Sandmel, pp. 81-84, 169-170 and Herbert G. May and Bruce M Metzger, The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha, (Oxford University Press, 1977), p. 822.
10 Isaiah 44:28-45:6. David Koresh, the leader of the group of former Seventh-day Adventists known as the Branch Davidians, believed that this prophecy referred to him, and adopted as his last name the Hebrew form of "Cyrus." See James D. Taylor & Eugene V. Gallaher, Why Waco? (Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 1995), p. 8.
 11 Isaiah 11:9, 6.
12 Cohen, p. 166.
 13 There are many accounts of Antiochus and the Maccabean revolt. Most of my account is based on Cohen (pp. 166-167) supplemented by standard reference works.
 14 Almost any standard work on the Old Testament and Daniel will discuss these problems. For an excellent summary of various opinions on the nature of Daniel go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel.htm. While somewhat dated, Louis F. Hartman and Alexander A DiLella's volume on The Book of Daniel (New York: Doubleday & Co, 1978) in The Anchor Bible series is very comprehensive. The notes on Daniel in The New Oxford Annotated Bible are also helpful. Broderick D. Shepherd's Beasts, Horns And The Antichrist: Daniel: A Blueprint of the Last Days? (Cliffside Pub House, 1994), (online at: <http://www.danielprophecy.com/>) is a work by a conservative Christian on some of the problems with the traditional dating and interpretation of Daniel.
15 Cohen pp. 176 ff.
16 ibid. pp. 204-206.
17 Hershel Shanks (ed.), Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls (New York: Random House, 1992) and Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English (New York: The Penguin Press, 1997).
18 Jaroslav Pelikan, Jesus Through the Centuries: His Place in the History of Culture(New Haven: Yale University Press, 1987), describes how ideas about Jesus have changed in relation to shifting social and historical factors.
19 Frank Moore Cross, "Light on the Bible From the Dead Sea Scrolls," in Hershel Shanks, (ed.), Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls (New York: Random House, 1992) p. 165.
20 Acts 9:2, 19:2, 23.
21 While it is traditionally assumed that Revelation was written during a persecution of Christians by the Emperor Domitian, and John the Revelator had been exiled to Patmos because he was a Christian, there is no historical evidence of widespread persecution during Domitian's reign. See Cohen pp. 215-216.
22 Cohen, pp. 212-219. Austin Farrer, A Rebirth of Images: The Making of St. John's Apocalypse ( Albany, NY: State University of New York Press, 1986[1949]). James Tabor, "Why Y2K? The Biblical Roots of Millennialism," Bible Review, Dec. 1999, pp. 16-27, 44-45.
23 Daniel 8:26, Revelation 22:10.
24 David E. Aune, "Revelation" in Everett Ferguson (ed.) Encyclopedia of Early Christianity 2nd Edition (New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1998), p. 981.
25 W. H. C. Frend, The Rise of Christianity, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984), pp. 253-256. Dennis E. Groh, "Montanism" in Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, p. 778-779.
26 Quoted in Eugen Weber, Apocalypses: Prophecies, Cults, and Millennial Beliefs Through the Ages (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1999), p. 41-60.
27 A classic account of medieval apocalyptic movements is Norman Cohn, The Pursuit of the Millennium: Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages, 2nd edit. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1970).
28 Weber, pp. 41-82.
29 Cohn, pp. 261-280. Damian Thompson, The End of Time: Faith and Fear in the Shadow of the Millennium (Hanover & London: University Press of New England, 1996), pp. 84-86.
30 Weber, p. 73.
31 ibid., pp. 99-117. Thompson, pp. 94-98.
32 The best account of the life of William Miller is Everett N. Dick's William Miller and the Advent Crisis (Berrien Springs: Andrews University Press, 1994) from which I have drawn much of what follows. Originally written in 1932, its publication was blocked for over sixty years by the reluctance of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to submit to a critical study of its history. This despite Dick's long tenure as a well respected historian at the denomination's Union College. See the introduction to Dick's book by Gary Land, "The Historians and the Millerites: An Historiographical Essay," pp. xiii-xxviii.
33 2 Timothy 3:16.
35 King James Version. More recent translations render it more accurately: "two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings" which most commentators understand as a reference to the evening and morning sacrifices performed in the temple, which is clearly referred to in the proceeding verse. This would correspond to a period of about three and a half years, the actual period of time during which sacrifices could not be performed due to the desecration of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes.
36 Paul E. Johnson & Sean Wilentz, The Kingdom of Matthias (New York: Oxford University Press, 1994), p. 6. Johnson and Wilentz's account of one of the many small cultic groups that flourished around this time gives a fascinating picture of the many social, political, and economic changes that gave rise to widespread religious ferment in the first half of the nineteenth century.
37 Some of the "signs of the times"cited by Adventists actually predated the Millerite movement. These included the darkening of the sun on "the Dark Day," caused by vast forest fires to the west of New England, of May 19, 1780 and the Lisbon earthquake in 1755. A spectacular display produced by the annual Leonid meteor shower in 1833 became the "falling of the stars" predicted by scripture. Contemporaneous supernatural manifestations, such as the appearance of three suns, crosses on the sun, angels flying by, the sounds of angel choirs, etc., were reported by both Millerites and non-Millerites. See Dick, pp. 101-115.
38 The classic study is Leon Festinger, Henry W. Riecken, & Stanley Schachter, When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group That Predicted the Destruction of the World (New York: Harper & Row , 1964[1956 original publication]). While the group studied was a UFO cult, the dynamics are very similar to those in other prophecy based groups, including Millerites (and Seventh-day Adventists whose relatively short history furnishes many instances of this process). While the Millerite movement is discussed (pp, 12-23) in some detail in the introductory chapter, the authors seem to be unaware of the history of the Millerites after the Great Disappointment. The development of the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is, in fact, a perfect example of the authors' thesis that disconfirmation of prophetic expectancies strengthens the conviction and enthusiasm of believers who modify their beliefs to accommodate the contrary evidence.
39 The Karaites originated in the Jewish community residing in Babylon in the eighth century AD. They resemble the Essenes in many of their teachings, and some scholars believe they may be descendants of an ancient Essene community in Babylon. See Hershel Shanks, "Essene Origins - Palestine or Babyonia?" in Hershel Shanks, ed. Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls (New York: Random House, 1992), pp. 83-84. It is, however, quite certain that by both Orthodox and Karaite reckoning, Yom Kippur fell on September 22 in 1844. In fact, it has never fallen as late as October 22 in any year. Snow also claimed that 1844 was a Jubilee year, which it was not, in the Jewish calendar. See http://www.ellenwhite.org/2300days.htm.
40 Dick, p. 145.
41 See #13 of the Fundamental Beliefs: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html




© 2000 James C. Moyers - May be copied and distributed with author and source cited.
 
CaptainSchmideo
CaptainSchmideo 8 years ago

You know, it's funny.
Just this week, I was reading a book called "Have A Nice Doomsday" by Nicholas Guyatt. (http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780061152245/Have_a_Nice_Doomsday/index.aspx)
He devotes a whole chapter to the Apocalyptic beliefs, and how they affected American religion.
He covers the Millerite movement, and the fallout/offshoots of that group.
Then he gets to the 1870's...and completely ignores C T Russell or the IBSA or the the JW's.
I just had to laugh.
The WTBS crows on and on about how many hours are being spent, how much literature is being placed, how loudly the JW's are proclaiming Jehovah's Day of Vengeance (tm)...
and yet it doesn't even rate a single lousy sentence in a book that talks about religions that look forward to Armageddon.
The books spends a lot of time instead on the guys who wrote the "Left Behind" series, and all the American churches that see the literal state of Israel as a prominent part of the prophecies in Revelation.
But nothing on the dubs.
Kinda funny, and kinda sad.
I guess the WTBS needs to get a better PR department than what they are currently using, which is the door to door work, (and JR Brown.)
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago


But nothing on the dubs.
Kinda funny, and kinda sad.
Great post, Capt.
That's what I found so interesting about Apocalypses: Prophecies, Cults, and Millenial Beliefs Through the Ages by Eugen Weber.
In 302 pages, the JW's and Bible Students got a few paragraphs.
That blew me away.
I like how you put it.
"Kinda funny, and kinda sad."
The religion we were a part of, "the nucleus for the paradise earth, soon to arrive", is really just one small cult in a long line of apocalyptic groups spanning thousands of years.
 
blueviceroy
blueviceroy 8 years ago

Maybe more apt would be " The History of Apocalyptic Bowel Movements " LOL! Sorry i couldn't help it , honest it just slipped out .
 
Dagney
Dagney 8 years ago

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/
The beginning of the end of the WBTS for me.
 
Bonnie_Clyde
Bonnie_Clyde 8 years ago

The WTBS crows on and on about how many hours are being spent, how much literature is being placed, how loudly the JW's are proclaiming Jehovah's Day of Vengeance (tm)...
The message has gotten away from talking about vengenance at Armageddon. We were told to put the emphasis on the peaceful new order that will follow. I don't think the average householder knows that we teach that they are going to die at Armageddon if they don't listen to our message.
 
Bonnie_Clyde
Bonnie_Clyde 8 years ago

The WTBS crows on and on about how many hours are being spent, how much literature is being placed, how loudly the JW's are proclaiming Jehovah's Day of Vengeance (tm)...
The message has gotten away from talking about vengenance at Armageddon. We were told to put the emphasis on the peaceful new order that will follow. I don't think the average householder knows that we teach that they are going to die at Armageddon if they don't listen to our message.
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/
The beginning of the end of the WBTS for me.
Good stuff, Dagney.
We were always taught that their "understanding" was unique and special, from Jehovah Himself.
Now we know they're just one little group in a long list.
 
compound complex
compound complex 8 years ago

Hi Never,
Thank you for this.
Wishing to make a deliberate and callous reiteration of what I've said before, I think some of us used to be apoplectic apocalyptics.
I've calmed down and am no longer an anxious, hand-wringing visionary who makes coffee nervous.
CoCo Decaf
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

for the lurkers
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 8 years ago

Hey, that's not a bad paper....better than I thought it was going to be. Good starting place for a newbie to the subject, in spite of a few errors and omissions.
One important thing it doesn't mention is that apocalyptic as a genre wasn't just about eschatology -- it was also concerned with revelations of other unseen realms, such as heaven. 1 Enoch was as much concerned with the future as it was with the secrets of heaven and how the sun, moon, and stars move in their courses. Revelation shows an interest in the heavenly temple as it was revealed to the seer, and even Paul in 2 Corinthians 12 discusses a vision of heaven as among the apokalupseis "revelations" of the Lord.
 
Forscher
Forscher 8 years ago

I did a research paper in college on the subject in general and the Miller movement in particular.
One commonality in all apocalyptic movements with the sole exception of Miller is that they are generally short lived. They tend to arise in times of cultural stress and then they are either stamped put by authorities, or they fall apart when the expected salvation event does not happen. Millerism (and some might say the cargo cults of the South pacific as well, though I am a bit hesitant to include them) not only did not fall apart, the Second Adventists are heirs to Millerism, but even spun off new groups including the Seventh Day Adventists and the Russelites, who themselves further spun off the Jehovah's Witnesses. All four groups are still alive and well to this day. Miller did well in a way.
I personally proposed that the nature of the new American Republic, with its unique freedom of religion and antipathy for the old religious traditions which dominated the older nations through oppression of competitors, were key factors in the survival and expansion of Millerist thinking. But I also attributed the rise of Millerism and its solid foundation to one of the first really sophisticated advertisement campaigns in modern history. Again, the unique American culture, which determined one's social standing on commercial success, rather than aristocratic birth, made that possible for the first time as well.
My history professor thought I was on to something.
Forscher
 

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Take a look at this.
by Monster 13 years ago 8 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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Monster
Monster 13 years ago


Everyone knows how the jws teach you must be a jw in order to survive, well look at this qoute from the seventh day adventist:

Everson, Charles T., The Mark of the Beast, reprinted from Bible Lectures by permission of Pacific Press Publishing Association, owners of the copyright; Washington, DC, Hagerstown, MD, Review and Herald Publishing Association.
This booklet is being circulated in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and is a clear explanation of a Seventh-day Adventist doctrine , namely, that people who worship on Sunday have The Mark of the Beast of Revelation, and will be lost eternally. Hereby, the Seventh-day Adventist Church sets herself apart and makes the claim that only she contains true Christians. It is therefore an important booklet, and if it can be refuted, then several of the Seventh-day Adventist positions and doctrines fall.

What do you think of that? I wish there was a jw around who could give us an opinion on that quote.
 
kelsey007
kelsey007 13 years ago

Why would a jw's opinion of this article be of any importance?
 
Monster
Monster 13 years ago


I didn't say it would be important I just would like to hear what they think about the quote..

These people have more in common with jws than I thought. I am still reading I found this..

Founder, Editor, Bible Believer's Ministries, Miami, FL USA (305) 372-9790 radical@iname.com
This study will be on the 7th Day Adventist. This cult began in the early 19th century by William Miller (1782-1849), who was a FALSE PROPHET! He predicted that the Lord Jesus Christ would return to Earth in glory on Mar. 21, 1844, and later on Oct. 22, 1844! Neither prophecy was fulfilled!
Edited by - Monster on 12 December 2002 2:48:46
Editing to add this

Therefore, the cult was instituted by a Bible rejecting HERETIC! Furthermore, he was a LIAR because he spoke presumptuously concerning the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. One can't help but think of the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) who stated in The Battle of Armageddon, Studies in the Scriptures, Series IV, 1897, p. 621, "But we ARE in the end of this Gospel age, and the KINGDOM is being established or set up. Our Lord, the appointed KING, IS NOW PRESENT, since October 1874, A. D., according to the testimony of the prophets..."
He compared them with the jws teachings. I had no idea. This is all very interesting to me.. Well see you all in the morning..gnite
Peace James
Edited by - Monster on 12 December 2002 2:54:55
 
kelsey007
kelsey007 13 years ago

They have much in common because the WT is rooted in adventist movement- plenty on that subject on other ex-jw sites.
 
Monster
Monster 13 years ago


They have much in common because the WT is rooted in adventist movement- plenty on that subject on other ex-jw sites.
Ahhhh, now it makes sense, thanks..
 
asortafairytale
asortafairytale 13 years ago

My mother is a dub, and the whole paternal side of my family is seventh day adventist. They're both crazy.
 
Sirona
Sirona 13 years ago


Actually the adventist links are a good way of getting dubs to think a bit. My dub friend has an adventist as a return visit who is really making her wonder about it all! I bet their conversations sound wierd to outsiders!
Sirona
 
Prisca
Prisca 13 years ago


Interesting reference, thanks Monster.


 
Quotes
Quotes 13 years ago


JWs and SDAs, and most (all?) other religions all boil down to the same (logically fallacious) arguement:
We are the True Religion(TM) because no other religion believes what we believe, and no other religion worships exactly how we worship. When you consider all the world's religions, ours is the one that most perfectly fits our description of what a true religion should be. Therefore, all other religions are false and ours is true.
 

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Jaffacake or anyone else with Seventh Day Adventist experience
by kazar 11 years ago 3 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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kazar
kazar 11 years ago








My best friend is a Seventh Day Adventist. She has witnessed my exit from the JW's She is very curious how I found out the truth about "the truth". She knows it is from this forum. She does not have a computer. Anyway, I never say anything detrimental about the Adventists. I don't know if she could handle not having that belief so I must be very careful in what I say. Although our conversations seldom consist of theology, she has asked me to ask someone on the board questions about her religion. Depending on what your answers are and how it may affect her, I may candycoat it and tell her I couldn't contact anyone who had previous experience as an Adventist. Her son is also an Adventist. Much more active and zealous than she is. She may want me to respond to you with scriptures from him. She is aware that I do not believe the bible, but her son is not aware of this. If it appears to be too sticky to get into, let me know.
1.How long were you an Adventist?
2. Why did you leave?
3.What is the state of the dead?
4. Is Christ in the most holy place with the father judging the world?
These questions sound very JW to me and I am aware that JW's began as a study group with the Millerites.
So, if you have time to respond, I would appreciate it. If not, that's OK.
I have to leave for a while, but when I come back I will check the responses.
 
jaffacake
jaffacake 11 years ago


Kazaar
Yes, I was an SDA but that was a long time ago. There is an active SDA on this forum (Barry). He is a great guy, although I've not seen him post for two or three months. He is better qualified to help.
I was about 11 when some of my Roman Catholic family were visited by SDAs during one of their evangelising campaigns in my neighbourhood. We became SDAs and I was baptised in 1972 aged 15 years. I may have been about 17 when I started to fade for several reasons.
I always had supressed doubts, but some of the main reasons I left were my resistance to pressure to go to the SDA college to become a full time pastor (SDA UK version of Gilead?) The other reason was to lead a more normal lifestyle.
Despite no longer attending Central Hall, and attending several other Protestent denominations, I still believed the SDAs had more right than any other religion - ie the closest to the truth. I only discovered where they were wrong in the past year through studying JWs. In 1972, we were certain that we would not grow old, the end was so near....
I'm glad you are kind about adventists - I have so much love and respect for them, even though I believe they are misguided about many of their doctrines. They are however Christian, unlike JWs. After I left and later married, I gradually all but lost my belief and sat somewhere between agnostic and athiest. That was because I knew the SDAs could not be right, but I believed they were more right than anyone else - so where else could I go? Sound familiar?
It is ironic that I was trying to prove to a JW that he was wrong, and that he should become an SDA if he wanted to be a faithful Christian, led me to understand why both are wrong, for similar reasons.
Not sure why she asks questions about her religion? She can get all the answers from SDAs. In my view one of the problems with both religions is the whole concept of trading proof texts. This is not the way to find truth. Does she want to convert me back to SDA?
I have answered your 1st two questions.
Q3. The SDA teaching is the dead are as if asleep, no consciousness, nothing, until Jesus imminent second coming....
My own belief is that no one knows, and the Bible's teaching on this is not completely clear, some texts appear to support JW & SDA views. Others strongly indicate there is some other state prior to Christ's second coming.
Q4. SDA's believe in the trinity and I believe they teach that Christ is in heaven. Not sure they teach he is judging the world yet, don't think so. I have my own views on these things but it would take a few pages...
I would love to respond further but unsure what your friend wants me to say. Give her my good wishes please.
http://www.adventist.org/sitemap.html.en
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm
 
kazar
kazar 11 years ago


Jaffacake,
Thanks so much for responding. I apologize for being late in my response to you as I just returned home.
I have decided to tell her only what you posted that I feel she can handle. I believe she is one who also feels if the Adventists are wrong, where can she go? She is not much of an independent thinker, so I will have to play it by ear.
As for why she wants to know, I think she wants proof, which of course is impossible. I remember feeling that way when I had doubts and began to fade JW's. She would probably want to quote scripture to you to defend her faith. It's funny! When I was a Witness, she and I never allowed the differences in our beliefs (not much at that) to come between our friendship. We witnessed to each other frequently. I could never see her point of view and vice versa. But, I respect her and like her very much and would not attempt to take her belief from her unless she was ready to let it go. She is a tolerant, kind individual which of course most JW's are not. Several times as recently as last year she attended Jehovah's Witnesses weekly book studies with me and never once said to me that they were wrong. She never criticized. Needless to say the same courtesy was not shown to her by the Witnesses.
Her son attends the regular Sabbath meeting on Saturday and he is well versed in scripture. They do invite me to their church when they attend.The most they preach to me is how soon the end of this world is coming. I just say, uh huh. She does have doubts, but believes that in time God will clear matters up for her. I remember believing the same thing when I was a Witness.
I do know that some people cannot go on living very well without a belief system and I don't know if she is one of them or not.
In fact, while I was gone today, she and I watched a video called Sin City. What a crazy movie. Done in comic book style. Too violent for me, but it was cleverly put together. So my friend is a lot of fun, too. We have known each other since we were kids. I moved away, was gone for 15 years, converted to JW's, she converted to Adventism. We met again five years ago, living in the same neighborhood and renewed our friendship even stronger than ever.
By the way, were you ever one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Sorry this post is so verbose. I seem to have forgotten how to be concise.
Again, thank you so much for your consideration and time.
 
jaffacake
jaffacake 11 years ago


Kazar
I was never a JW. My best friend since I was 13 (I'm now 47) was an athiest, whilst I was a SDA. He may have been one of the 'worldly' influences when I faded from the SDA religion. I think my biggest doubt was about Ellen G White being God's messenger with the gift of prophecy. I may have been proved right when it was discovered later (1980s) that some of her writings were not originally hers!
Anyway, I was not very religious the last 25 years or so, but I remained quite a moral and Christian-like person. My friend and his wife (and two youngest kids) became JWs gradually over past 3 years. We had been so close - each others best man etc...He didn't take the JW thing seriously until the past year. I thought it quite harmless & similar to SDA. I thought it would do him some good because he had been into psychics spiritualism fortune tellers etc. Suddenly I researched and realised what he was getting into - I was too late.

I have discovered wonderful people of many denominations 'well versed in scripture' but all with different understandings, all sincere but could they all be right? I had just about given up on arguing about what the Bible means, what with all its contradictions, then I read this wonderful book. For me it was an important breakthrough and may have saved my faith, but it might be too big a leap for a practising SDA. Let me know if the link doesn't work.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0281056803/ref=pd_rhf_p_1/202-9176795-3064604
 

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I really don't know anything.
by ihatescreennames 12 years ago 12 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw experiences
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ihatescreennames
ihatescreennames 12 years ago


Last night I wallked through a suburbia neighborhood. I sat for a time, crosslegged, on cement pebbles.
There was a teenage girl twirling her baby sister around and around and around the lawn. I smiled huge. They saw me and smiled at me, huge smiles, twirly body, falling on the green winter grass. I could hear thier giggles to the end of the block.
I couldn't stop smiling all the way to Wal-Mart.
My heart is aching with contradictions. Life is so simple. A child's game multiplied by a billion. Letters instead of numbers in the equations. Variables.
I want to be honest with you. All of you.
I've said it before on this blog, but I haven't said it recently. I wasn't raised Jehovah's Witness. I was raised Seventh-day Adventist. My great-grandfather was best friends with Russell, however. He helped found the JW religion. This great-grandfather was a carpenter and in my home growing up there was an old desk, well made with a marble top, decorated with the Star of David in honor of JW's. I recently sold this desk at a pawn shop for a fraction of it's worth.
Going through old letters we found letters from Russell to my great-grandfather. They were thrown out eventually or given to Mormon genealogical centers who gulped them in one satisfied swallow.
As for the Seventh-day Adventist culture, I am a fourth generation Adventist on both sides. My father was head-elder of our church, Pathfinder leader, newspaper editor, organ player, announcer, on the church and school board, Social President, and Youth Leader. My mother was deaconness, counselor and teacher in Pathfinders, assistant newspaper editor, Potluck organizer, Social Chairman, head of the school board for 8 years, and Cradle Roll Leader.
To top it off, we were quite wealthy and likely one of two top intelligent families in the church. People came to us with thier problems and we mediated them.
I had quite a track record as well, which is to be expected. I hosted a fundraiser each month to raise money for homeless people. I was spiritual vice-president of my class for several years and knew more about Josephus, the Gnostic Gospels, and the Bible itself then most adults in the church, though not many people knew this since I was reserved about my knowledge as female children are supposed to be. I went on several mission trips and had the ultimate goal of starting an orphanage in Brazil and India. I went door to door spreading the good news, and had a high success rate due to my sincere passion and ability to not shove religion down people's throats.
Please note my shame about my residual pride in sharing this with you. This is what I was talking about. Variables can be contradictive (high success rate = pride = shame). It makes sense in a whole, but separated is meaningless, a child's scribbling. (high success rate = shame= incorrect).
For instance, last night I was frightened to sleep alone in a strange house without my boyfriend, so I stayed up all night waiting for him to come home. When asked what I was afraid of I had to respond: well, cumulatively, everything. Apart, Nothing.
He responded: Well, that is natural I suppose. Especially at night.
But I am trailing off the subject. I was going to tell you about my fall from grace in the Seventh-day Adventist church and how this has affected my entire life. Also, about how my absolutes in terms of morality and belief are sanded down by the winds of variability and simply knowing I know very little.
I drifted too far and I'm content to finish this post tonight.
Until then,
Michelle
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 12 years ago

I sahll await your follow up post with interest
 
Aztec
Aztec 12 years ago


Wow! To be honest, I think you're far ahead of the game. Most of take a few more years to realize how little we know. I hear it only gets worse as you get older.
I look forward to reading the rest.
~Aztec
 
shamus
shamus 12 years ago

Simple things are the best. When it involves kids and laughter, what more could you want?
 
Winston Smith :>D
Winston Smith :>D 12 years ago


I'll be watching this thread with interest Michelle.
You, and your family history, sound fascinating
Best,
Paul
 
amac
amac 12 years ago

Sounds interesting.
 
one_ugly_time
one_ugly_time 12 years ago


I don't know if it is normal, since I don't know what normal is, but I believe that most individuals don't even begin to process the dichotomous and opposing feelings until near mid-life. Integration of an individuals polar forces is one of the basic principles of wisdom. Love/Hate, Passion/Repulsion, Obsession/Apathy, and so on, continue to plague the human spirit; especially during the phases of life concerned with discovering for oneself their individuality, resources, and sense of "Who am I".
Based upon how I read what you have written, your ability to express, dissemenate, and segregate your feelings both objectively and subjectively is very well developed -- you are a well studied individual with a rare talent of the true understanding of life. It does come down to the little things, the smiles on childrens faces, the playful and innocent, yet sincere, responses from loving family and friends, and the ability to reach others in a compassionate manner; all the while letting them in to your life without judgement or criticism.
The intellectualizing and analysis of these events precedes the synthesis and integration into your being. A "whole" individual retains all aspects of these individual internal aspects; however; I will leave you with this saying that I copied from another board that I find applicable to sustaining growth and respect for the process --
"The Wolf......"
An Elder Cherokee was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, " A fight is going on inside of me....it is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
One wolf represents fear, anger, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self piry, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.
This same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too.
"They thought about it and than one child asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win??"
The old Cherokee simply replied... "The one you feed"
I, too, look forward to reading more of your story.
ugly
 
Aztec
Aztec 12 years ago


Here's a quote I like:
?No one ultimately knows what they?re saying anyway. Are we really making art? Art doesn?t belong to us. It doesn?t belong to people, it belongs to the universe. It comes FROM the universe. It comes THROUGH us. When I write something, I think I know what I?m saying, but I never pretend to know the full meaning of the words.?
Just thought it was interesting.
~Aztec
 
Valis
Valis 12 years ago


Well I hatescreennames or whoever you are you have a terribly original avatar. Maybe I am skeptical about people w/such backgrounds who post here, and if I am wrong I wil apologize. Yes do tell more of your story and how you relate to us, cuz I almost agree w/Sixofnine and think you are not what you seem. Cut with the fiction and stop using other people's avatars that they aren't even using now and you wouldn't even have seen if you hadn't been around a while. Sic, you have been around a while you know better than to use other people's avatars. Get your own, it is easy enough.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
 
ihatescreennames
ihatescreennames 12 years ago


I am tired and don't want to finish tonight.
I will make some responses to Valis since, if I'm correct, he runs this site, and some response is deserving for how much time he has vested in this.
My boyfriend used to post in here. I know kes152, as well. I know of AGuest. Since it was that section of this site who invited me. a.) I deeply respect Aaron. b.) I am a very confused, unknowledgeable person and don't not believe or believe in any thing they believe in general.
I also have had extensive experiences with JW's, mostly ex-JW's. I don't want to post exactly where I live and full name and such for privacy reasons and I haven't a clue how to send Private Messages or what avator means. I'm blog illiterate.
I own a little online book business. I spend alot of time writing and reading.
I will finish this. Maybe tonight. I am thinking.
 
Sentinel
Sentinel 12 years ago


Hi Michelle. It is interesting to learn first hand of your experience in the Seventh Day Adventist belief system. There are so many dogmatic systems, so many cultish churches out there. JW's are known for their dogmatic structure of beliefs, hundreds of rules and regulations, with disfellowshipping, labeling, shunning, slander. Well, I'm certain you have been reading here for awhile.
So strange, isn't it, how religion devides loved ones? It shouldn't do that. Love and compassion should be most important. Look for that, and leave the rest.
You feel scarred and lonely and insecure because you are going through change. Change is frightening, because we are moving away from our comfort zone, no matter how crappy it has been.
I wish you the best in searching for your own truth. You may be surprised to find that you had it inside you all along.
/<
 
ihatescreennames
ihatescreennames 12 years ago


Dear Sentinel:
I do want to say that while some of my experiences in the SDA church have been terrible, as I will relate when my head shuts up and aligns itself as all properly working heads eventually do, I learned more then I can say within the church. While the organization itself was cruel and wrong to me, alot of people have stood by me through it all. Some have not, granted. But I love the people in my church. They raised me in many ways. I respect them more then words can express. They were wrong to me. But I have been wrong also sometimes. We all have "wrong" in us. As well as good.
I have no intention of returning to the church. Yet I respect the people in the church. I love them and would give my life for any one of them, including the people who raped me and accused me of things I did not do.
I think, rather then religion cancelling out love, it is the fear of truth, and love. Both Jehovah's Witness's and Seventh-day Adventist's live in a carefully constructed comfort zone with a deep fear of what it is like "out there". And their fear has merit. It BLOODY HURTS OUT HERE!
I cannot judge their hearts, although I can say I believe living in a lie when faculties belong to us to know better, is wrong.
It is not what is done to us that affects so adversely in this life, but rather, how we react to what is done to us.
And in saying this I am not trying to malign the healing "process" (As C.S. Lewis in his "A Grief Observed" notes is needed in death, and change always brings death.) What we feel will not always be pretty and we will make mistakes.
I am very confused. It might be a couple days before the ending comes back to me. In the first post of this string I had it all in my head but went out to be with friends in the middle of the writing, and it never came back to me. It will come back, I just need to think on it.
 
codeblue
codeblue 12 years ago


I would love to read the rest of your "story"...
Codeblue
 

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JW- Mormons- Seven-day adventist The more they preach- fewer come in
by sspo 10 years ago 13 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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sspo
sspo 10 years ago

Keeping members a challenge for LDS church
Mormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
Keeping members a challenge for LDS church
Mormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
 

    
 Mormons sing hymns in Independence Square in Accra, Ghana, during Gordon B. Hinckley's 1998 visit. (Rick Egan/Tribune file photos )  
 
The claim that Mormonism is the fastest-growing faith in the world has been repeated so routinely by sociologists, anthropologists, journalists and proud Latter-day Saints as to be perceived as unassailable fact.
 The trouble is, it isn't true.
 Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more than 12 million members on its rolls, more than doubling its numbers in the past quarter-century. But since 1990, other faiths - Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups - have grown much faster and in more places around the globe.
 And most telling, the number of Latter-day Saints who are considered active churchgoers is only about a third of the total, or 4 million in the pews every Sunday, researchers say.
 For a church with such a large, dedicated missionary corps constantly seeking to spread its word, conversion numbers in recent years tell an unexpected story.
 According to LDS-published statistics, the annual number of LDS converts declined from a high of 321,385 in 1996 to 241,239 in 2004. In the 1990s, the church's growth rate went from 5 percent a year to 3 percent.
 By comparison, the Seventh-day Adventist Church reports it has added more than 900,000 adult converts each year since 2000 (an average growth of about 5 percent), bringing the total membership to 14.3 million. The Assemblies of God now claims more than 50 million members worldwide, adding 10,000 new members every day.
I found it interesting that both the JW and mormons after spending so much time in evangelizing they are not doing as well as Seven-day ad. and other religions
 .
 
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 10 years ago

Very interesting. I also liked the comment about the actual number of active churchgoers in the pews every Sunday.
I don't have the figures handy, but perhaps someone could compare when the largest year of growth for the JWs was and how it's doing now by comparison.
I remember doing this as I was leaving, and at that time it had hit a peak in around 1994, then began dropping off after that. Perhaps it's going back up again now, a decade later, but I don't think so.
Also, even back when I was an elder in the 70s to the early 90s, there were many, many congregations with considerably less than 100% meeting attendance. I was shocked at that, because my congregation always ran about 120% on Sundays. How that is figured is based on the total number of active publishers equals 100%.
Now, say the average attendance at Sunday meetings is 80% of publishers. According to this article, that means out of 6 million JWs worldwide, only 4.8 million would be "filling the pews" at any given meeting.
S4
 
sspo
sspo 10 years ago

seeker4
Last congr. , it had 154 pubs but usually on a sunday at most there were 120 in attendance and as you well know they count also a week old baby since they feel he is learning.and listening to God's word.
Really then if you eliminate all the babies and unbaptized ones the numbers would be very low.
For decades book study and TMS and SM were always low and every visit of the CO, the elders got the blame for not trying to make theses meetings more interesting and lively so that the friends would show up and don't forget the shepherding program so we could get these people at the meeting.
How about blaming the Society for coming up with boring information, going over the same book over and over again or listening to 2 sister going over a 4 minute talk ( how often did we use that info). Did anyone ever pay attention to a Wat. and awake presentation from the stage? How could you remember a 4 minute presentation and use it in the field?
Even the Public Talks, for those that have been around for decades we have heard the same talks over and over again, no wonder many feel that the meetings are boring and stay home.
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 10 years ago

sspo,
Yes. An interesting public talk by a good speaker is a rare event in JW-land. I would say if we had one exceptional speaker and talk, it was maybe every six months or so.
S4
 
sspo
sspo 10 years ago

In the 60 or70's I beleive the elders had some freedom to come up with their own talks but eventually the society took that away and made sure that the brothers stuck with the outline and not deviate from it.
The GB are Control freaks or godlike ones that have to have full control of every aspect of the JW's life
I wish i would have read the book " 30 years as a slave of the watchtower" 30years ago maybe my eyes would have been opened at that time or should have listened to my worldly friends that it was a lot crap.
 
badboy
badboy 10 years ago

I ONCE HEARD FROM SOMEONE THAT A MORMON MISSIONARY TRIED TO PUT HIS SHOE TO STOP HER CLOSING DOOR!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I guess we'll see if any of them have any truth soon - JWs have the ticking clock of the anointed, Mormons will surely either be destroyed or proven by archeology and all the other growing congregations will eaither implode or usher in a new era of dominance - my money's on Islam growing faster than everyone else.
It's a very emotionally attractive concept to be the biggest or fastest but only to man - God was never apparently all that bothered.
Mind you if you count our missionary work amongst the dead we kick butt :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago

It was my understanding that Pentecostal 's have a growth rate of around 20 million a year.
steve
 
badboy
badboy 10 years ago

THAT CERTAINLY PUTS OTHERS IN THE SHADE!
 
Geronimo
Geronimo 10 years ago

Yeah but Pentecostals are realy only growing like wildfire in South America, I'm fairly sure. Among Catholics.
 
sspo
sspo 10 years ago

Don't Pentecostal beleive in speaking in tongues?
maybe that's what is attracting people.
 
barry
barry 10 years ago

I beleive the penticostals are growing at a greater rate than any denomination in fact I read in a church paper that SDAs in many parts of the world also go to penticostal meetings. As the paper said they go to the SDAs for the truth and to the penticostal services for the experiance. Barry
 
Hondo
Hondo 10 years ago

During the tenure (25 years) of Pope John Paul II the Catholic community grew by approx 250,000,000, or ~10,000,000 a year, or ~28,000 a day. This daily convert number is maintained today at ~28,000 a with Pope Benedict.
 
Carmel
Carmel 10 years ago

Truth about what barry?

carmel
 

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Seventh-day Adventists at my door
by TD 10 years ago 19 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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TD
TD 10 years ago


Last night a member of the Seventh-day Adventist faith knocked on my door and offered my literature. This is the first time that's every happened.
His approach was similar to the JW's. --He tried to talk of topics of common interest and work that into a presentation for his literature without actually saying who he was affliliated with. He was actually pretty good at it.
Anyhow, if I was keeping "score," the total visits for the last decade would be:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- 3
Jehovah's Witnesses - 1
Seventh Day Adventists - 1
 
betty boop
betty boop 10 years ago

All Scary
 
lawrence
lawrence 10 years ago


My stats in Florida (prior to Toronto) were quite different:
IRS - 7 Times
Trick or Treaters - 5 Times
Sheriff - 3 Times
JWs - 1 Time
 
Mary
Mary 10 years ago


LMAO @ Lawrence! So which group was most persistent?
I remember the Mormons calling on me years ago. I hadn't a clue what they believed but there was an unwritten rule that Mormons and JWs were always nice and polite to each other when they called at each others doors---because they knew that alot of people were quite rude. I invited them in and they proceeded to tell me about their Book of Mormon, the Incas, Josepth Smith and other weird shit they believe like Jesus flew over to North America after he died to preach to the Indians.
 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago

I didn't even know that they went door to door!
 
upside/down
upside/down 10 years ago


Mormons- 5
Seventh Day Dudes- 1
Lutherans- 1
Non-Denominational Jesus Freaks- 1
JW's- 0
Schwanns' Dude- not nearly often enough...
Inner City Black Dudes- (selling mags)- 3 or 4
Neighbor (bringing my dog back)- Countless times...
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago


Hi Mary.....
 If those or any mormon ever visit you again, you should ask them if they eveer saw the video called, "DNA vs. The Book of Mormon."
 Anyway the video goes into detail about the native Americans being the main part of the mormon theory so a group of mormon scienetists go into research of DNA trying to prove that the Native Americans are the main story. So after years of DNA research, not one indian(NA) is anywhere near the isrealites.
 Over thousands of NA from more then 150 tribes were DNA tested. Not one came from any isrealite tribe. Proving that the Book of Mormon is false.
 Living Hope Ministries..who produced the video are willing to give a copy, free, to any mormon.
 Have fun....
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Rev Frank - Have you read the Book of Mormon? The book tells of a group of Asiatics who travel to America and over a long period grow to be millions in number. Then along comes a handful (probably less than 15) of Israelites and joins them. This small group intermarries with the indigenous peoples (who may or may not be exclusively from the above group) and suffer continual war which does tend to keep the lid on one's numbers. They then move as a group to intermingle with another group who we don't know the genetic grouping of (though at least one is of the lineage of Zedekiah.) Finally this one single group is wiped out in a genocidal war. This happens over a 2000 year period. I would be stunned if there was much if any hebrew dna left. What would prove the Book of Mormon wrong is if there was no asiatic dna since that is the indigineous peoples at the beginning of the Book Of Mormon.
Keep your crappy science to yourself.
 
Gill
Gill 10 years ago


Didn't know that the SDAs went from door to door. Poor things! When did they make them start doing that?
NO ONE religious except for one BA Christian attending some sing a long down the road has called on our door. I haven't even seen the JWs recently. As for the Mormon lads around here, they are always riding their bikes around. I don't think they actually knock on anyones door.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


I don't get any of them to my door
I have a 7th day adventist church nearby and mormons and jw's are in my area as well.....
but "sigh" nothing dares approach our door step
Evanescence
 
Mary
Mary 10 years ago


RevFrank said: If those or any mormon ever visit you again, you should ask them if they eveer saw the video called, "DNA vs. The Book of Mormon."
Don't need to. I've read enough about Joseph Smith to see that he was just another wacko at the time who was involved in Folk Magic and other bizarre stuff and the whole Mormon religion is built on sand, just like the WTS.
 
lonelysheep
lonelysheep 10 years ago


In the last 2 years of living where I do now....
JW's - 6
Mormons - 0 I don't think where I live in a poor enough city, because I've never seen anyone.
Community-type churches (is this considered non-denominational??) - 2
Baptists - 3
Atheists - 0
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

..so what did you read Mary? Like I keep asking the Rev, have you read the book. I've read a the JW orange book, portions of the the jolly green giant bible version, more 'awakes' than you can shake a college degree at and yet I'd still rather ask a JW/exJW what they believe since its very easy to get the wrong end of the stick.
By the same token the LDS aren't anything special as far as the people go, we still fart around and goof off, have affairs and generally get in a pickle like everyone else.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago





I know what you mean, Qcmbr. I've read the BOM, I've read LeGrand Richard's A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and I've read quite a few issues of Ensign. (They're always laying around here at work.) Yet there is much about the LDS faith that I don't understand.
Actually in the context of this thread, (Missionaries at your door) it probably wouldn't do much good for Mary to discuss what are likely the criticisms of ex-Mormons with (Let's face it) children.
Ancient Greek is a geeky hobby of mine and there are things that genuinely intrigue me about the BOM. How for example would a literal translation (ala KJV) of the Greek expression, amen amen lego soi have found it's way into the text? (And by this I mean aside from a poor farm-boy who didn't read Greek borrowing expression from the KJV.)
Obviously though, that's not something that can be discussed with wide-eyed innocent missionaries. ---No more so than you could discuss source criticism of the Bible with JW's at your door.
 
Bryan
Bryan 10 years ago


I have a friend who is 7th Day. He went to a seminar a few months ago and began telling me that the Catholic Chruch was the Scarlot Colored Wild Beast.
I had never heard that one.

Bryan
Have You Seen My Mother
 
Mary
Mary 10 years ago




so what did you read Mary? Like I keep asking the Rev, have you read the book.

I've read part of it........I found a great portion of it to be an obvious rip off of the bible. What interests me is the credentials of Joseph Smith, who supposedly got all his orders straight from heaven.......ya, riiiiight, just like Charles Russell did.
The gold plates that Joseph Smith allegedly received from the angel Moroni (if I remember correctly) were translated with a seer stone from "reformed Egyptian" to English and told about a group of Jews coming to America in 600B.C. where they became known as "Nephites". The translation became entitled The Book Of Mormon. However, there is no testimony from anyone other than 11 mormons that the gold plates ever existed, and they are, naturally nowhere to be found. There are many bizarre things in the Book of Mormons: it says that Jesus was bom in Jerusalem (Alma 7:9-10) and not in Bethlehem, which the bible clearly says, (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1) and it also says that the darkness after Jesus died lasted 3 days (Helaman 14:20) and not 3 hours (Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33). As well, there is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence of the existence of the Nephites that (supposedly) lasted 1000 years. Because of this obvious lack, some mormons grasp at straws and even claim that the ancient temples in the Yucatan peninsula were built by the Nephites even though archaeologists say that they were built around 1000 AD which is 600 years past the date of the end of the supposed Nephite civilization.
Allegedly two groups of Mormons saw the gold plates. The first group of 3 were the ones who ordained all of the first 12 apostles to the Mormon church. All 3 eventually renounced Mormonism and were called by Joseph Smith "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them'' (Joseph Smith: History of the Church Vol 3 pg 232) and "liars, cheats, and blacklegs". Only 3 of the 11 stayed in Mormonism, all 3 being Smiths (naturally).
Many of the 11 were known to be very unstable and unreliable, always having weird visions and going from one religion to another (The God Makers, Decker & Hunt p102). As well, the Book of Morons contains literally hundreds of quotes from the King James version of The Bible (and even whole chapters; compare Isaiah chapters 2-14 to 2 Nephi chapters12-24, Isa 48-49 to 1 Nephi 20-21, Isa 50-51 to 2 Nephi 7-8). The alleged prophet Nephi allegedly made the gold plates in 600-500 B.C. but the King James version wasn't published until 1611 AD. Either Nephi lacked enough to write about and so magically transported to the future to copy out of the bible, or Joseph Smith copied out of the King James Bible (which was available to him) in order to enhance his fictitious story with the words of true prophets in order to fool those who weren't familiar enough with their bible to know that it had been copied.
Joseph Smith made it very obvious that he did copy from the bible by keeping the same bible chapter divisions and verse numbers and also kept the same words italicized----not too smart eh? He was also found out to be a fraudulent "translator" of ancient manuscripts by 3 men in 1843 who brought to him six thin brass plates which they had made to look like ancient plates with phony hieroglyphics on them. Joseph Smith began to "translate" them using his seer stone and said they "contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh.'' After the death of Joseph Smith the 3 men made public the hoax which was then confirmed by experts. University of Chicago professor James Breasted wrote: "The Kinderhook plates are, of course, childish forgeries, as the scientific world has known for years. ... Where we can check up on Smith as a translator of plates, he is found guilty of deception. How can we trust him with reference to his claims about the Book Of Mormon?"
The list goes on and on......Joseph Smith's writing of the Book of Mormons is about as credible as Charles Russell's interpretation of the Great Pyramids.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Gotta defend my prophet Mary - you got a lot of your source from the Decks who are nuts.
1/ Kinderhook plates - Joseph Smith took them and never even pretended a translation.
2/ The three witnesses never denied their testimony which is odd if your lying. What did the 11 and the 3 witnesses ever gain out of their deception except a world of hurt. Give me one other christian organisation that even pretends to angelic visits, new scriptures. Most christian churches are left talking about the spirit since its the one thing that is impossible to disprove. The LDS church has 15 witnesses who signed their names to having seen the gold plates and some of them helped in the translation process.
3/ People leaving your side is not a proof your false. Exactly the same happened to Jesus.
4/ The book of Mormon translation contained sections from the old testament bible since the book of mormon contains portions of the old testament which the writer thought vital(remember they carried the old scriptures with them) interestingly there are some sections that aren't in our bible that have been lost but were current to the Nephites. The fact they are in KJV verbatum (though its fascinating to see what has been changed), is explained quite easily - just as Jesus quoted scripture in the language of the day and didn't correct and rephrase everything (the simplest route if your forging something) when the meaning is correct a prophet will quote the scripture of the day. Where the meaning of the old testament is not correct and has been bodged by translation then Joseph Smith provides a correction. Pretty much the way a prophet would.
5/ Proof of a civilisation that co-existed with much larger civilisations but had christian style beliefs does exist. I've listed it before. What everyone forgets about meso american culture is that of city states that may have indigenous peoples but are passed around by the ruling power. The Book of Mormon has this pattern exactly with several cities changing hands regularly and yet not 'becoming' culturally altered. Can you explain which parts of Nephite culture aren't found in Meso-America? Plenty of wars, trade, religious conflict. Its actually more stunning that JS got it so exactly right.
6/The book of Mormon states Jesus was born at Jerusalem not in Jerusalem. Bethlehem meant a lot less to a migrant people than their former capital. The land of is a common semitic style of reference for alocation and its environs. Pretty wierd that Joseph Smith would get that right since he certainly was no scholar.
7/ TD - latin phrases in Book Of Mormon, try french! The latin comes from the bible as stated above. The french carries a meaning not possible in english without extra words.
End of the day though - you are right to question this book right down to its core - if its false then the whole LDS faith just crumbles to dust. I had quite the crisis about this when I was younger.
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
To be fair, Elizabethan English was well out of vogue by the time Smith translated.
There is something bizarre in the fact that the chapters are identical down to the numbering structure. The numbering structure did not arise from any translation process but only as referential points, added later. It is too bizarre to chalk up to chance. The numbering system itself was added to the English Bible well after Nephi's time.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
TD
TD 10 years ago





7/ TD - latin phrases in Book Of Mormon, try french! The latin comes from the bible as stated above. The french carries a meaning not possible in english without extra words.

Latin? French? Are we talking about the same thing?

I'm talking about John's pet expression, amen amen lego soi.



Older translations like the KJV offer a wooden, word for word literal translation in period English -- Verily, verily I say unto thee
Modern translations more often than not drop the Greek redundancy in favor of the idiomatic content of the expression --Most assuredly, I say to you (NKJV) I tell you the truth (NIV) In all truth I tell you (NJB)
Even in the 19th century English of the early 1800's, we would not expect to see a poor translation of a Greek idiomatic expression in a work like the BOM.
Certainly we wouldn't expect to see it in the 16th and 17th century English of the translators that produced it.
 
Mary
Mary 10 years ago

Qcmbr, why are you coming on to an ex-JW site trying to defend the wacky religion of Mormonism?? Joseph Smith was a fraud. He and his whole family were involved in folk magic and all other kinds of weird practices. Hate to break it to you, but he was either dilusional or stoned out of his gourd or just plain lying when he got his "vision" from the angel Moroni. Anyway, I think you'd have more of an audience if you went on to an ex-Mormon site........we're trying to deal with the trauma of our own wacked-out religion----we don't need to hear about another one.........
 

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"The Adventists" - Program on Public TV right now....
by ziddina 4 years ago 37 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

According to this program, which I am watching right now, the 7th-day Adventists number only around a million in the U.S.A., yet they have built multiple hospitals, clinics, and health programs with a holistic leaning...
From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church
Health and diet
Since the 1860s when the church began, wholeness and health have been an emphasis of the Adventist church.[29] Adventists are known for presenting a "health message" that recommends vegetarianism and expects adherence to the kosher laws in Leviticus 11. Obedience to these laws means abstinence from pork, shellfish, and other foods proscribed as "unclean". The church discourages its members from the use of alcohol, tobacco or illegal drugs (compare Christianity and alcohol). In addition, some Adventists avoid coffee, tea, cola, and other beverages containing caffeine.
Sanitarium products on saleThe pioneers of the Adventist Church had much to do with the common acceptance of breakfast cereals into the Western diet, and the "modern commercial concept of cereal food" originated among Adventists.[30] John Harvey Kellogg was one of the early founders of Adventist health work. His development of breakfast cereals as a health food led to the founding of Kellogg's by his brother William. In both Australia and New Zealand, the church-owned Sanitarium Health Food Company is a leading manufacturer of health and vegetarian-related products, most prominently Australia's national breakfast cereal, Weet-Bix.
Research funded by the U.S. National Institutes of Health has shown that the average Adventist in California lives 4 to 10 years longer than the average Californian. The research, as cited by the cover story of the November 2005 issue of National Geographic, asserts that Adventists live longer because they do not smoke or drink alcohol, have a day of rest every week, and maintain a healthy, low-fat vegetarian diet that is rich in nuts and beans.[31][32] The cohesiveness of Adventists' social networks has also been put forward as an explanation of their extended lifespan.[33] Since Dan Buettner's 2005 National Geographic story about Adventist longevity, his book, The Blue Zones: Lessons for Living Longer From the People Who've Lived the Longest, named Loma Linda, California a "blue zone" because of the large concentration of Seventh-day Adventists. He cites the Adventist emphasis on health, diet, and Sabbath-keeping as primary factors for Adventist longevity.[34][35]
An estimated 35% of Adventists practice vegetarianism, according to a 2002 worldwide survey of local church leaders.[36][37]
Adventists' clean lifestyles were recognized by the U.S. military in 1954 when 2,200 Adventists volunteered for Operation Whitecoat to be human test subjects for a range of diseases the effects of which were still unknown:
The first task for the scientists was to find people willing to be infected by pathogens that could make them very sick. They found them in the followers of the Seventh-day Adventist faith. Although willing to serve their country when drafted, the Adventists refused to bear arms. As a result many of them became medics. Now the U.S. was offering recruits an opportunity to help in a different manner: to volunteer for biological tests as a way of satisfying their military obligations. When contacted in late 1954, the Adventist hierarchy readily agreed to this plan. For Camp Detrick scientists, church members were a model test population, since most of them were in excellent health and they neither drank, smoked, nor used caffeine. From the perspective of the volunteers, the tests gave them a way to fulfill their patriotic duty while remaining true to their beliefs. ..."
They are now discussing the "Millerite" movement, and the "Great Dissappointment"... They previously discussed the misperceptions that people generally have of Adventists, amusingly, the comment was mentioned, "People ask, are you bringing us the Watchtower magazines?"
Now they're discussing their prophetess, Ellen White, whose visions included the afore-mentioned dietary restrictions - apparently when she had her "diet" vision, her diet consisted of white bread and meat...
Now they're discussing the Kellogg family and the Adventists... As the Kellogg fortunes rose, a schism occurred between the Kelloggs and the Adventist church leaders...
Adventist hospitals are the largest providers of Medicare services, the program just stated....
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

They're discussing a large Adventist medical complex in Florida, right now...
They apparently have a strong focus on holistic health practices...
They partnered with Disney to build another health center in Florida - didn't catch the name...
Here 'tis.... http://www.celebrationhealth.com/ Florida Hospital Celebration of Health
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

What a contrast to the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters....
The Adventists have built a LOT of hospitals, and are VERY focused on keeping people physically healthy.
The comparison was made, between the Adventists' "end-times' mentality and their emphasis on physical health... Ironically, Advetists are among the most long-lived people in America...
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Jehovah's Witnesses are among the SHORTEST-lived people in America... Poverty, separation from the general community at large, stressful lifestyle from the "police-state" mentality - all of these things would be factors in shortening the Jehovah's Witnesses' life-spans...
 +1 / -0
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Uhm, I recall something they stated early on in the program...
Seems that the first successful heart transplant into a baby - a baboon's heart into a girl baby - occurred in an Adventist hospital.
Lemme see if I can find a link to that info...
Here 'tis....
http://www.everydayhealth.com/blogs/organ-transplant-a-daughters-perspective/25th-anniversary-of-baboon-heart-transplant
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Interestingly, Adventists have no aversion to blood transfusions, despite their tendency to be very conservative and literalist in their theology/dogma...
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Adventists hospitals tend to be on the cutting edge of new medical technologies...
They're discussing a new robotic technology used in medical operations... Being used in an Adventist hospital....
The subject, named Brett, had prostate cancer - which was operated upon robotically.
Apparently a success - two months after the robotic operation, he's training for an Ironman competition...
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

One of my uncles family became SDA after they left the Bible Students in the 1920s. Very well educated group.
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Well, in a way this program's been disappointing...
I was expecting a very detailed discussion of their origins, but instead it seems to be a program ballyhooing their medical hospitals...
However, If I ever need medical services, I think I'd prefer to go to an Adventist hospital.
But...
I need to check out their ratings on the internet. See what their survival rate is, rate of mistakes leading to patients' deaths, and so on...
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Hi, designs!!
Thanks for commenting!!
Yes, that's another clear-cut difference between the Watchtower Society and their parent group, the Adventists....
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Now they're discussing their theology...
They seem to be very conservative - even fundamentalist, to a great extent...
I see they practice full-body baptism... I guess that's understandable, with the Baptist influences on their origins..
Hah!!! They use the church services on Sunday as a time to perform health-screening, too!!! That is - uhm, interesting????
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

One of their main teaching hospitals and univerities is in Loma Linda, Ca. the whole town is mostly SDA.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

A lot of people get the 7th day adventists and 2nd adventists (from which the JW's evolved) mixed up.
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Adventists say that the body is the temple... That the body is essentially good - people may do bad things with the body, but the body is essentially good...
They apparently believe in a literal physical resurrection - however that would work...???  With a heavenly hope????
I wonder whether Jethro Kloss who wrote "Back to Eden", was an Adventist? The comments they've just made, sound strikingly similar to his philosophy as stated in that book....
Hah!! They run wineries, even though most Adventists don't drink alcohol!!! And a hospital with weight-loss programs, located in the center of California's wine country...
And they started a 'quit-smoking' clinic, way back in 1969...
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

As I understand it, CantLeave, there is some common ancestry between the various Adventists groups???
Lemme go look that up...
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Here's the beginning of the Wikipedia article on 'Adventists'...
"Adventism is a Christian movement which began in the 19th century, in the context of the Second Great Awakening revival in the United States. The name refers to belief in the imminent Second Coming (or "Second Advent") of Jesus Christ. It was started by William Miller, whose followers became known as Millerites. Today, the largest church within the movement is the Seventh-day Adventist Church. ..."
Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventism
Now the TV program is discussing mental health - which they obviously mandate the latest forms of treatment....
Yet another contrast to the Jehovah's Witnesses...
It's like the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Adventists' evil twin...
 +1 / -0
Gayle
Gayle 4 years ago

ziddinia, thanks,
are the Adventist - larger and smaller related groups still 'end-timers?'
 
ScenicViewer
ScenicViewer 4 years ago

It's like the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Adventists' evil twin...
Very funny. I like that remark.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Thanks Zid
Good old Miller - if only he knew how many lives he would screw up!
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

[I don't like using Wikipedia all of the time, but I'm grabbing links on the run, here...]
From that above-mentioned link, the article goes on to say...
"Adventism began as an inter-denominational movement. Its most vocal leader was William Miller. Between 50,000 and 100,000 people in the United States supported Miller's predictions of Christ's return. After the "Great Disappointment" of October 22, 1844 many people in the movement gave up on Adventism. Of those remaining Adventist, the majority gave up believing in any prophetic (biblical) significance for the October 22 date, yet they remained expectant of the near Advent (second coming of Jesus). Of those who retained the October 22 date, many maintained that Jesus had come not literally but "spiritually", and consequently were known as "spiritualizers".A small minority held that something concrete had indeed happened on October 22, but this event had been misinterpreted. This viewpoint later emerged and crystallized with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the largest remaining body today.
Albany Conference: The Albany Conference in 1845, attended by 61 delegates, was called to attempt to determine the future course and meaning of the Millerite movement. Following this meeting, the "Millerites" then became known as "Adventists" or "Second Adventists". However, the delegates disagreed on several theological points. Four groups emerged from the conference: The Evangelical Adventists, The Life and Advent Union, the Advent Christian Church, and the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
The largest group organized as the American Millennial Association, a portion of which was later known as the Evangelical Adventist Church. Unique among the Adventists, they believed in an eternal hell and consciousness in death. They declined in numbers, and by 1916 their name did not appear in the United States Census of Religious Bodies. It has diminished to almost non-existence today. Their main publication was the Advent Herald, of which Sylvester Bliss was the editor until his death in 1863. It was later called the Messiah's Herald. ..."
From the above information, this leapt out at me...
Of those who retained the October 22 date, many maintained that Jesus had come not literally but "spiritually", and consequently were known as "spiritualizers".
Which means that, before ol' Russell/Rutherford came up with that "invisible presence" of Jesus, the Adventists had already used that concept....
From the second paragraph above, it does appear that the "2nd-day Adventists" had a beginning in common with the 7th-Day Adventists, brief though it might have been, as the "Millerites" became known as the "2nd-day Adventists"...
The third paragraph says something to the effect that the "2nd-Day Adventists" have gone extinct; I'd say that they transmogrified [Thanks, Calvin & Hobbs!!] into the International Bible Students and then the Jehovah's Witnesses...
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

"are the Adventist - larger and smaller related groups still 'end-timers...??" Gayle
I think they are - would need to do another internet search on that for more info, but...
I don't think they're quite as literal - or bloodthirsty - about it as the Jehovah's Witnesses are...
 

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"The Adventists" - Program on Public TV right now....
by ziddina 4 years ago 37 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Gayle, this might answer your question about the Adventists' beliefs regarding "Armageddon"...
Check out this Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology
Here's the opening paragraphs on that link:
"The Seventh-day Adventist Church holds a unique system of eschatological (or end-times) beliefs. Adventist eschatology, which is based on a historicist interpretation of prophecy, is characterised principally by the premillennial Second Coming of Christ. Traditionally, the church has taught that the Second Coming will be preceded by a global crisis with the Sabbath as a central issue. At Jesus' return, the righteous will be taken to heaven for one thousand years. After the millennium the unsaved will be punished by annihilation while the saved will live on a recreated Earth for eternity.
The foremost sources are the biblical books of Daniel and Revelation. Jesus' statements in Matthew 24 for instance, as well as many other Bible verses are also used. The classic Adventist commentary on the end-times was Uriah Smith's Daniel and the Revelation. The writings of Ellen G. White have also been highly influential, particularly the last part of her book The Great Controversy. "Prophecy seminars", developed since the mid-20th century, have been a key popular source. ..."
In skimming the rest of the article, it does sound as if the 7th-Day Adventists have similar beliefs to the Jehovah's Witnesses - regarding "Armageddon", at least.....
One must wonder at the huge differences in the way the two groups have reacted to such beliefs, though...
 +1 / -0
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Well, the program has ended...
It was interesting, but ran rather like an Adventist PR piece...
Now I'm wondering about the DARK  SIDE of 7th-Day Adventism...
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

The family joke was 'you'll eat eggs but not chicken'
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Hah hah hah!!!
Good one, Designs!!
 
barry
barry 4 years ago



This video is a different perspective Adventists have of Apostates than the Watchtower.
Barry
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Barry, thank you very much for posting that video!!!
SUCH a difference - as you stated - from the way the Watchtower Corporation views questioners, dissenters and "apostates"...!!
Zid
 
steve2
steve2 4 years ago

SDA churches are very prone to schisms. Locally, the original SDA church has split on at least three occasions in the last thirty years. Anyone who wants an insider's perpsective on this "softly softly" church could read "The White Lie" which spells out the shenanagins sorrounding Ms bossy-britches White and her early dogmatic influence on the group. There appear to be two factions within the SDA church: THose who want to be seen as Christians like all other Christians and those who insist on correct interpretation of Scripture. Expect ot be pummeled from here to kingdom come if you try to have a conversation with a doctrinally-committed SDA.
Sure, SDAs might engage in more civilized discourse about their teachings, but the old-timers within the church are fiercely dogmatic about the "correct" interpretation of scripture as seen through the eyes of Ms White.
 
steve2
steve2 4 years ago

I listened to the rightfully well-regarded Professor. In a nutshell, what the SDA church now struggles with is a "symptom" of the Advent of Christ not occurring (i.e., the end has not come and they're still waiting and waiting...). He's a little bit this, a little bit that, using instructive parables the way wineries use grapes. Enough already!
The longer a group of people have to wait for an event, the more opportunity for a "settling down" effect in which variation comes into the teachings. The fact that SDAs as a rule are more tolerant of the variations within their midst does not disguise the fact that they talk to death their apologetics the same way the Watchtower talks to death its own apologetics. The professor has an undeniable gift of the gab and one hoped that he would ease up a bit and simply acknowledge that all the vast number of Christian groups - his included - are simply best guesses and not embodiments of "the truth". Alas, in his bland, garrulous way he personifies organized religion: The more you talk, the more you talk, the more you convince yourself..... and the more the lsitener realizes its all smoke and mirrors .....
 
barry
barry 4 years ago

G'day Steve,
You are right about the historic Adventists and their reliance on the teachings of Ellen White but I would like to propose tha there are in fact four main groups within the church not including the sub- groups.
The Historic Adventists beleive much of what the church taught from its beginning in the 1860s to the the 1950s. This group teaches that Christ had a sinful human nature and a very perfectionistic interpretation of the investigative judgement from 1844. In this group santification in the life of the beleiver is heavily stressed. Some Sub-groups beleive in the Arian herecy and many of these groups and sub -groups can be found in independent ministries and the internet.
The book "Questions on doctrine" was published in 1957. The book was printed as an answer to questions raised by the evangelicals Barnhouse and Martin and their studies of Adventism v the theologians of the Adventist Church and their understanding at that time. Many of the so called pillars of Adventism were watered down or changed 180% as seen by the Historic Adventists. The doctrine of the Trinity was more formally established and the doctrine of the sinful nature of christ was dropped. Other sectarian doctrines such as calling the other churches Babylon and the doctrine of the Remnant Church was also changed. There was also more openess to the protestant Gospel of "Righteousness by Faith".
These events became the catalyst in forming two groups within the church with those to some degree holding to remnants of reformed and developed Historic Adventists and those rejecting altogether and becoming evengelical christians. The evangelicals are supported by " Good News Unlimited", Spectrum Magazine and "Atoday'.
The fourth group are "the liberals"although they are a small group are separate from the others because of their teachings. They may hold to evolution and not beleive in the virgin birth. Some of the clergy belong to this group but run into problems in their ministries.
So there is quite a spectrum of beleifs within the church my grandmother wouldn' t attend the church for ten years because she beleived it was all to confusing for her. She told me in the old days the church would confront apostacy from the pulpit but now she said to me "You don't know what the person sitting next to you beleives.
Barry
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Interesting comments, Steve2 - I'm listening to that video clip again...
I did wonder about that "...private sins must be rebuked in private; public sins must be rebuked in public..." comment.
I also wonder what their practical interpretation of "rebuking" amounts to - do they practice shunning, or some form of that type of discipline?
 
steve2
steve2 4 years ago

Thanks Barry for bringing such helpful perspective to the discussion. The additional information about trends in the religion is very interesting. I may have said so in earlier threads, but my closest childhood friend was a SDA, although he later left. He was such a sensible, reasonable man and I used to enjoy my chats with him. I learnt a lot from him but most of all, his humility shone through (despite having a witch for a mother - but that's another story!)
Ziddina, I think how rebuking is done may vary from place to place among SDAs. Locally, I know a SDA man who started up his own house group and refused to comply with requests that he not proslytize among members of the SDA. He was rebuked within the church on a number of occasions (so his family informed him). But the overall impression I got was the local SDAs were "all over the place" about what to do, but the body representing the SDA church in New Zealand were more clear cut: He was to be "de-frocked" with loss of his role within the church.
One overall conclusion I have come to about the SDAs is they struggle to have consensus about what to do when there are dissenting views and it ends up looking very murky and equivocal. I got that very same impression from listening to the admittedly well-reasoned video above: It's a little bit like, if you have the gift of the gab, you can end up talking yourself into anything - and yet it still doesn't sound right (if that makes sense).
The tension within the SDAs is not unlike the tension among different groups within the Episcopalian/Anglican and Presbyterian churches.
 
barry
barry 4 years ago

Gday Zidinna and Steve,
I was a bit confused about the reference to sinning when the good professors main thrust of his talk was apostasy.
Willful sins such as breaking the commandments are delt with by talking to the pastor or in very bad cases a person may be disfellowshiped until they are repentant. Of course we all sin everyday.
Apostasy is different it only amounts to a difference of opinion. My opinions may be closer to the evangelical end of the spectrum and I would be regarded as apostate to someone from the traditional sector and visa versa. A pastor in the church has to be more carefull as he is paid by the church he may be fired if he was to upset people with his personal opinions. It has been said a pastor can beleive anything and as long as he doesn't upset people but if he was to question 1844 and the investigative judgement [an Adventist fundamental teaching] he would be fired.
An ordinary parishioner such as myself can take issue with something you may dissagree on at church or in a bible study without any consequence I have done it many times. We go to the Anglican churrch now and I just hope they are the same.
Of course shunning doesn't exist in the SDAs.
Barry
 
Heaven
Heaven 4 years ago

Obedience to these laws means abstinence from pork, shellfish, and other foods proscribed as "unclean".
Well that settles it. I could never be an Adventist. "I'm out!"
Interesting how food seems to enter into some of these ideals...


 
designs
designs 4 years ago

My daughter's MIL was raised SDA and left for similar reasons many young JW people leave- being considered odd with religious practices, shunning.
 
barry
barry 4 years ago

gday designs, The SDAs don't shun, beleive me. I have never seen it happen. Barry
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

That may be but according to the MIL her family was shunned by the local SDA church so ?
 
barry
barry 4 years ago

Gday Designs, There are differences in SDA policy from one congeration to another so you could be right but I can say there is no official poIicy on shunning. Barry
 
barry
barry 4 years ago

Heaven , I love prawns shelfish and crabs and have never been a vegetarian. Barry
 

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Topic Summary
according to this program, which i am watching right now, the 7th-day adventists number only around a million in the u.s.a., yet they have built multiple hospitals, clinics, and health programs with a holistic leaning.... from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/seventh-day_adventist_church.
health and diet.
since the 1860s when the church began, wholeness and health have been an emphasis of the adventist church.



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Do Jehovah Witnesses Believe in the Trinity?
by researcher1 11 years ago 18 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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researcher1
researcher1 11 years ago


Hello, my name is Brian Jackson. I am a seventh-day adventist and I am doing a BIBLE project for my 11th grade RELIGION Class and I chose the topic of the Trinity and decided to compare that of the Seventh-day Adventist teachings with that of your teachings.
What do you believe about the trinity?
Also, a little off the topic, but why don't you believe in having an American Flag in your sanctuary?

THANK YOU in advance for your help.
 
EvilForce
EvilForce 11 years ago

Hey Brian, welcome to the board.
Please keep in mind this is an Ex-Jehovah's Witness board. However, there are many people on here with decades and decades of experience with the Witnesses. I was raised in it and spent 22+ years in it.
The JW's do not believe in the trinity. They believe that God is Jehovah and his Son is Jesus. Two seperate people. Just like you are your father's son. Allied in cause yes. But unique individuals. Also, the "holy spirit" is God's active force. A part of him. Not a seperate identity...just a description of how God excercises his power. Make sense?
Also, the JW's do not put any flag of any nation or organization in their KH (Kingdom Halls = temple, church, etc.). They believe in strict neutrality with regards to this. (However there has been some violation of this as they have had a 10 year relationship with the United Nations that they broke off about 4 years ago. You can go to the UN website and type in Watchtower) They believe Jesus taught that they should be no part of this world and pay Ceasar's things to Ceasar. So therefore they do not support any governments but will abide by their laws so long as they do not conflict with their own beliefs. That being said... there have been instances of "conflict", but I will leave that to you to ask about or do further research as I'm not sure exactly how in-depth your research is going to go.
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago


Brian, while some of us still attend meetings at the kingdom halls of Jehovah's Witnesses, most of us have left and no longer attend.
The official site is www.watchtower.org
PR
www.jw-media.org

No the WTS does not teach that Jesus, God, and the holy spirit are three persons in one God. They do not teach that Jesus is the NT manifestation of the Jehovah of the OT. They teach that the holy spirit is not a person, but is an impersonal force.
For the most part they have not altered this belief. The first few years from 1879, there were members/editors of the WT that felt differently, but they left a few years later.
Other beliefs have changed radically over the years, even flipflopping back and forth. That we could help you with.
There is an SDA from Australia, barry, who posts here. You might be interested in checking out his posts.
Blondie
 
EvilForce
EvilForce 11 years ago

I like the new avatar blondie...it's more suiting :smile:
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago


As regards the flag in their meeting places,
They do not put them in buildings they own
but
if they rent a building and there is a flag in it, they do not remove the flag, but leave it where it is.
My grandparents were part of the Watchtower Society when they rented rooms or buildings from the Oddfellows and other organizations that had flags in the room. The flag stayed and they had their meeting.
In large venues, such as areas or stadiums, where flags are displayed on the walls, these flags remain in place during the whole convention of JWs.
Go figure.
Blondie
 
researcher1
researcher1 11 years ago

So you JW's believe in taxes? Because that is supporting the government?
 
researcher1
researcher1 11 years ago


I don't understand how any JW cannot believe in the Trinity. Look at the verses below. They show the similarity between God and Jesus. It shows their equality.




GOD


- From everlasting (Psalm 90:2)

- His years have no end (Psalm 102:27)

- The First and the Last (Isaiah 44:6)

- Alpha and Omega (Revelation 21:6)

- Beginning and the End (Revelation 21:6)

- Remains the same (Psalm 102:27)

- Creator (Psalm 102:25)

- Called God (Isaiah 54:5)

- Called Father (Matthew 23:9)

- Called Lord (Isaiah 50:7)

- Worshipped (Exodus 34:14)

- King of Kings, Lord of Lords (1 Timothy

- Savior (Isaiah 43:11)

- Forgives sins (Isaiah 43:25)

- Redeemer (Isaiah 43:14)

- Knows the heart of man (2 Chronicles )

JESUS CHRIST


- From everlasting (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:4-6)

- His years have no end (Hebrews )


- The First and the Last (Revelation )

- Alpha and Omega (Revelation -16

- Beginning and the End (Revelation -16)

- Remains the same (Hebrews )

- Creator (Hebrews )

- Called God (John )

- Called Father (Isaiah 9:6)

- Called Lord (Romans 10:9)

- Worshipped (John and )

- King of Kings Lord of Lords (Revelation )

- Savior (2 Peter 1:1, 11)

- Forgives sins (Luke )

- Redeemer (Titus , 14)

- Knows what is in man (John , 25)

- In God?s form (Philippians 2:6)

- The express image of God (Hebrews 1:3)

Also, I was researching about their NEW World Translation and found that it has been altered.
For example, in Colossians -16 in the New World Translation it says, ? He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth?.? The word other was actually added to your translation and as you can see that changes the whole meaning of the verse. This is to give the impression that Jesus was a created being, and that He created all other things. In t he original 1950 edition of the New World Translation, the word other was not even put in brackets! How can loyal and sincere Jehovah?s Witnesses like yourself ever find the truth when the organization you have put implicit faith in, tampers with the Bible like this?
Another example is in John 1:1, your translation says, ?In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.? And then in Isaiah 9:6 it portrays him to be the mighty God. So is He one God or two? They contradict themselves many times. The Bible truth is that Jesus is much more than a god ? especially when the Bible shows that men, and even Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4) is called a god. Jesus is fully divine, He is God.
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago


I just have a suggestion, if you are trying to convince a JW that his/her religion is wrong, don't start with the trinity. They are taught how to deal with that issue.
I would start with their history of prophetic dates that have failed 1874, 1914, 1915, 1925, 1975.
Blondie
 
hooberus
hooberus 11 years ago


JWs believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel (angel as in created being), and I believe so do many in the SDA Church, (though the SDA that believe this belive that Jesus is God, and not a created angel).
There are problems with any Jesus - Michael teaching.
 
melmac
melmac 11 years ago


HEY! I just had a great idea: I will go to a Jehovah's Witnesses' board and say I have some doubts about their religion... then I will show them some verses to prove how wrong they are!!
How come no one has ever thought of this before??
Well, FYI...
1. Many, many people have done that before.
2. All of them did not take the time to realize that this is an EX-Winessess board.
Good luck to you!
 
skyman
skyman 11 years ago

I have to tell you the Trinity is not a good subject to try to convence a witness that he is wrong on. For exsample John 1:1 take a look in a diglot (Greek into English) I use the Zondervan translation you'll notice two different spellings for the God Jesus and the God Jehovah then look down at look at vrs 18 you'll notice the same two different spellings for God here notice the GOD for Jehovah Oeov the bible say's no man has seen but the god for jesus Oeos declared him to the world. I ask you this why does the writer of John use two different spellings for God here if it is the same God. John 1:1 look you notice the subject (word) has the article (o) but when it is said here that the word is God it does not have the article showing. Which mean it should be translated a god. Now look at when he was with God this GOD has a article before it (tov) which show that this God (Oeov) was of more importace than the god spelled (Oeos) Jesus god. Greek does not use a or an ex. lets go look at a house or leta go look at the house. a is plural the is singular. So when two nouns a used in the same sentence the Greeka use a diffinite artcle to show the reader which noun is the most important. So John 1:1 actually prove the Trinity wrong..
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 11 years ago


skyman....The different "spellings" (e.g. theos vs. theon) reflect the varying grammatical role of the noun in the sentence (inflection for case), and this is a wholly separate matter than whether a noun is anarthrous or not (e.g. nominative ho, accusative ton for "the"). In v. 1, the word theon is accusative because it follows a preposition (thus *pros ho theos is impossible in Greek), and theon is accusative in v. 18 because it is the grammatical object (i.e. the one that is "seen"). The same God is nominative (ho theos) in John 3:16 because he is the subject, the one who "loves" the world. The author of John uses two different "spellings" for the same God simply because the noun has different grammatical roles in different contexts, just like for any other noun. If you said in Greek "God sent his Son and the Son revealed God to the world", the word for "God" will necessarily be theos in the first clause and theon in the second, tho they refer to the same being.
The issue is why theos in John 1:1c lacks an article. One possibility is that it is indefinite, so that the theos known as the Word is a member of a class of other theoi "gods". However, the noun can be anarthrous for other reasons as well, and in fact the indefinite sense is the least well attested sense for predicate anarthrous nouns -- which makes the NWT rendering unlikely (without even considering its theological problems). Predicate definite nouns in the preverbal position usually lack the article anyway, such as the following:
John 1:49: "Nathaniel answered him, 'Rabbi, you are the Son of God (su ei ho huios tou theou), you are [the] King of Israel (su Ø basileus ei tou Israél)' ".
Here the translator has to supply the definite article because the noun basileus "king" precedes the copular verb ei, but when both nouns follow the verb (e.g. huios "son" and theou "God"), neither noun is anarthrous. Here are other examples from the gospel of John:
John 3:29: "[The] bridegroom is the one who has the bride" (ho ekhón tén numphén Ø numphios estin).
John 5:27: "And he has given him authority to judge because he is [the] Son of Man" (hoti Ø huios anthropou estin).
John 11:49: "Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was [the] high priest that year (Ø arkhiereus ón tou eniautou ekeinou), spoke up".
And here are examples elsewhere in the NT involving theos "God":
Philippians 2:13: "For God is the one working within you (Ø theos gar estin ho energon en humin)".
Hebrews 11:16: "Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God" (ouk epaiskhunetai autous ho theos, Ø theos epikaleisthai).
It is therefore quite erroneous to say that the noun must be indefinite in John 1:1c because it lacks a definite article. These examples show that in the same grammatical position as in John 1:1c, the anarthrous noun is definite when it is a predicate nominative and in a preverbal position. However, there is a third type of predicate nominative (PN) similar to the preceding one that is probably most appropriate to John 1:1c: qualitative predicate nominatives. These differ from definite predicate nominatives in that the subject and the PN are not fully interchangeable. For instance, "The one working within you is God" means pretty much the same thing as "God is the one working within you" (with a slight shift in emphasis), but saying "The Inuit are Eskimos" does not mean the same thing as "Eskimos are the Inuit", for there are other tribes or groups of Eskimos. This type of PN is also usually anarthrous, and it is highly significant that it was frequently used throughout John and 1 John and is found in the NT only in those same writings:
John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh (ho logos Ø sarx egeneto)".
John 2:9: "The master of the banquet tasted the water that had become wine (egeusto ho arkhitriklinos to hudór Ø oinon gegennémenon)".
John 3:6: "Flesh gives birth to flesh (gegennémenon ek tés sarkos Ø sarx estin), but the Spirit gives birth to spirit" (gegennémenon ek tou pneumatos Ø pneuma estin).
John 6:63: "The words ... are spirit and they are life" (ta rhema ... Ø pneuma estin kai Ø zóe estin).
John 12:50: "And I have known that his commandment is eternal life" (hé entolé autou Ø zóe aiónios estin).
John 17:17: "Sanctify them by your truth; your word is truth" (ho logos ho sos Ø alethéia estin).
1 John 1:5: "God is light and darkness is not in him" (ho theos Ø phós estin kai Ø skotia ouk estin en autó).
1 John 4:8: "God is love" (ho theos Ø agapé estin).
Because this is a very distinctive Johannine stylistic trait, this pattern is probably what occurs in John 1:1c. Note that in the case of the wine in John 2:9, the water does not become all the wine that is in existence -- it instead becomes wine in quality and nature. Similarly, by saying that "the Word was God", the author of John does not say that the Word was God in his entirety; he instead says that the Word was fully God in quality and nature (i.e. "divine"). This in no sense means that the Word was conceived of as an inferior being to the Father (such as an angel or archangel), any more than the wine that Jesus created was inferior to wine in general (or the love that defines God is inferior to love in general). Rather, the Word is everything that God is in nature and quality, just as God is everything that love is. That the PN in John 1:1c is qualitative is indicated further by its parallelism with the qualitative PN in John 1:14 ("the Word became flesh"). Both theos "God" and sarx "flesh" are preverbal PNs and they contrast the Word's incarnate nature with his pre-existent nature: (1) the Word had theos as his nature from "the beginning" (en arkhé), from before even Creation itself (cf. v. 3), while (2) he had the nature of sarx when he "made his dwelling among us" (v. 14). The choice in verbs emphasizes this contrast in states: in his pre-existent state, the Word had an existence of being theos (hence, eimi "to be" is used in John 1:1c), whereas in his incarnation he became sarx (hence, ginomai "to become"), that is, he changed from one nature to another. This understanding of John 1:1 reveals how close it is in conception to Philippians 2:6-7, which ALSO uses anarthrous preverbal nouns (tho in the dative and accusative cases, rather than nominative...so these are not instances of PNs) to indicate the nature of Jesus in these two domains:
Philippians 2:6-7: "Being in [the] form of God (en Ø morphé theou huparkhón), he did not consider equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking [the] form of a servant (Ø morphén doulou labón), having become in [the] likeness of men (en Ø homoiómati anthropón genomenos).
Some scholars believe that the christological hymn of Philippians 2:6-7 directly influenced the author of the Prologue of John, and the parallels are quite striking between theos én (John 1:1c) and morphé theou huparkhón (Philippians 2:6), and sarx egeneto (John 1:14) and morphén doulou labón (Philippians 2:7). If anything, the author of John seems to have expressed more concisely the thought in Philippians 2:6-7, that Jesus originally existed in a fully divine state ("equality with God", as Philippians 2:6 puts it). And it is curious that just a few verses later in Philippians 2:13 we encounter an anarthrous preverbal PN of theos, just what occurs in John 1:1c.
 
Ténébreux
Ténébreux 11 years ago


As regards the flag in their meeting places,
They do not put them in buildings they own
but
if they rent a building and there is a flag in it, they do not remove the flag, but leave it where it is.
That sort of makes sense to me... they don't venerate the flag, but at the same time they try not to show disrespect for it. Removing or covering over an already-existing flag could be seen as disrespectful.
 
barry
barry 11 years ago


Gday Brian,
Im an SDA and I live in Australia. The trinity is a big subject with the Witnesses but this arguement started a long time ago. In about the third century there were different views concerning the trinity and one view came from a priest named Arius who first said the Son is in no way God and the holy spirit is Gods active force. Hence the witnesses are called Arians because of there beleif.
The SDA beleif in the trinity is exactly the same as Catholics and most protestant denominations. The doctrin as we now have it was developed from the ecumenical councils starting from first council at Nicaea.
A book I would strongly reccommend Is called 'Christian thought ' by Tony Lane. I have a copy of it but cant put my hands on it right now.
The witnesses will say the doctrine of the trinity is pagan but by useing their same logic all christian doctrin could be argued is pagan.
I have also found very few witnesses know what the doctrine of the trinity is and what we beleive and they often neglect the doctrine of the incarnation.
Maybe you could go to the Kingdom Hall in the course of youre research Ive been there and tehy are quite friendly people and no dought would make clear there point of view. They have WT study which is like the lesson study that we have. During this study only those that are picked and given the mic can comment. You just cant have youre say like in the SDAs. They then have the public talk which is like our sermon.
Good luck with youre project and God Bless Barry
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 11 years ago


Welcome Brian.
This topic has been hashed and rehashed in this forum. I suggest you do a Google search of trinity or Is Jesus God? on this site and see what you come up with.
 
AshtonCA
AshtonCA 11 years ago


I don't know if you realize it or not, but the Jehovah's Witnesses are actually an offshoot of the 7th day adventists. I just got done watching The Jehovha's Witnesses, a Non Prophet org. and it says that Russells, wrote a book with the founder of the adventists. Then he went and formed his own religion after leaving the adventists. I was shocked to hear this. Please do not slam me, I am simply quoting the video.
Ash
 
bennyk
bennyk 11 years ago

Actually, the JW's are descended from the SECOND ADVENTIST movement, NOT from the Seventh-Day Adventists. The SDA has its origins in the Second Adventist movement also; one might say the JW's and SDA's are 'cousins'. (No offense, AshtonCA)
 
Honesty
Honesty 11 years ago


Also, I was researching about their NEW World Translation and found that it has been altered.
Hi Researcher,
Altered is putting it mildly.
The JW's believe that Jehovah is Almighty God and that Jesus is a god. Therefore, they are polytheistic and not monotheistic as Christians are although the JW's deny it vehemently. A JW cannot come to grips with anything that defies WatchTower Bible Society logic on any issue. The WatchTower denies the diety of Christ and all loyal JW's do too. Trying to explain the Trinity (3 seperate people in one God) is like trying to teach a 3 year old calculus. It can't be done unless they open the door to their hearts and let Christ enter when he knocks.
 
barry
barry 11 years ago


The SDAs have there roots in the Millerite movement and the Second Adventists were Adventists which made dates such as 1875 for the second comming. SDAs made no further dates after 1844 for the second comming.
I come here to be with all my fellow cousins. Barry
 

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Article: Is Wrongful Excommunication Legally Redressable? About Mormons, JWs and other religions
by AndersonsInfo 7 years ago 20 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 7 years ago

http://mormonmatters.org/2009/09/02/is-wrongful-excommunication-legally-redressable/


Is Wrongful Excommunication Legally Redressable?


Published by Jeff Breinholt on September 2, 2009
Jeff Breinholt is a lawyer with the U.S. Department of Justice, and a hobbyist legal researcher/writer on cultural issues, including modern American religious movements. We welcome him to Mormon Matters for a series of guest posts on legal issues in Mormonism.
Those who follow Mormonism and who worry about its treatment of dissidents might be excused for thinking that the LDS Church stands alone in its use of excommunication. I must admit I was one of them. I was wrong.
It seems that excommunication (sometimes known as “disfellowshipping”) is not unique to Mormonism.[1] This conclusion comes from American court opinions in which aggrieved former members from a variety of faiths challenged their harsh treatment at the hands of church officials. It seems that many major American religions have been sued for wrongful excommunication. From the early part of the 20th century to the present, the defendant churches have included the Baptists,[2] the Presbyterians,[3] the Catholics,[4] the Lutherans[5], the Congregationalists,[6] the Pentecostals,[7] the Hudderites,[8] and the Jews,[9] as well as some lesser known faiths.[10]
What about the Mormons? I found five cases – four of which were in the last 20 years – in which the LDS Church has been sued for its allegedly heavy-handed treatment in expelling its members.[11] How does this compare to other faiths? A few years ago, I spent some time analyzing how Muslims are treated in American law, and eventually published an article entitled “2007 Year In Review: Islam in the Courts,” which was picked up in a favorable piece by the New York Times.[12] As a result, I received some hostile comments, including one with described me as an “Islamophobe” and claimed that I would get the same results if I applied the same methodology to any religion.
To test this claim, I turned to Mormonism, which I know. I pulled every American court opinion, from any court, mentioning the LDS faith. To defend against accusations that any description of this body of law would be anecdotal, I did the same thing with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Christian Scientists.
From this survey, what can we conclude about the LDS Church’s use on the excommunication remedy when we look at its legal history compared with these three other faiths with which it is commonly confused?
It turns out that the Mormon Church is sued more for its excommunication decisions than either the Christian Scientists or the Seventh Day Adventists, but not as much as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. For the Scientists and the Adventists, there were one (1) and three (3) cases, respectively, and for the Christian Scientists, we have to go back to 1955.[13] Meanwhile, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have been sued 10 times.[14]
Is the LDS Church is good company? The Mormons and the Witnesses are similar, in that each suffered persecution at the hands of American authorities. For the Mormons, this was mainly in the 19th Century during the days of polygamy, whereas the high-point of persecution of the Jehovah’s Witnesses was the 1940s, when they went to court over their aggressive proselytizing and their refusal to pledge allegiance to the flag and to serve in the U.S. military. Still, Mormons might be uneasy that they occupy a leading spot with the Witnesses in the frequency of lawsuits over their excommunication decisions. As one scholar described it:
The Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves, of course, provide some of the greatest examples and perhaps disturbing ironies. By and large, freedom of expression and freedom of conscience were not hallmarks of the Witnesses’ own faith, which could be painfully repressive. Although they championed religious liberty and free expression when they campaigned in the courts in the mid-1940s, the Witnesses practices a rigid faith that left virtually no room for ideological flexibility or dissent. In fact, those Witnesses who openly questioned the tenets or practices of their faith often found themselves “disfellowshipped,” that is, excommunication, and spurned.[15]
What about the legal merits? Is wrongful excommunication judicially actionable in American law? These short answer is no, at least not yet.
In all of the Mormon/Adventist/Scientist/Witness cases challenging member expulsions, the churches prevailed, with some very minor exceptions. The stated reasons varied, but they come down to general judicial unease with getting into purely ecclesiastical matters. When presented with them, courts generally claim they lack jurisdiction.[16] In an old case involving the Catholics, the court refused to get involved, even where it appeared the discipline was the result of vindictiveness and hatred.[17]
This makes a certain amount of sense, even for people like me who worry about intra-religion repression. If there was a recognized tort of wrongful excommunication or clerical malpractice, defendant verdicts would look very much like as official ratification. It is one thing for your church to say you are somehow infirm in your faith or behavior. Imagine if your government agreed. A certain amount of religious autonomy is tolerable, even if individuals suffer due to the absence of judicial redress.
Of course, it may just be a matter of time before crafty lawyers succeed in chipping away at general judicial reluctance to recognize civil liability in ecclesiastic judgments. Thanks to the Mormon Church, religions are generally immune from liability for employment discrimination.[18] However, they are frequently brought to court on tort liability theories. Look at sexual abuse. The Mormon, Adventist, and Jehovah Witnesses churches have all been sued for negligence in permitting sexual abuse to occur within the religious settings.[19] They are also sued for more garden-variety torts, where the result is opinions without any legitimate discussion of ecclesiastic abstention.[20] Clearly, the religious autonomy doctrine is not an absolute bar to liability.
In between these outrageous facts of sexual abuse and regular torts, there may be a growing trend towards recognizing some civil review of how humanely churches treat their members. Lawyers are already starting to rely on strategic pleadings – challenging, for example, the way and how widely the excommunication decision was communicated – to take their cases outside of the realm of a purely ecclesiastical matter. Two illustrative cases involved the Mormon Church and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
A 1992 case out of Oklahoma involved two LDS sisters, Jeanne A. Hadnot and Suzette Renee Ellis. They were each notified of and asked to be present at a Church disciplinary hearing called to determine their membership status. Neither attended. Following the hearing both received letters from the Church. The letter addressed to Hadnot was placed in her mailbox. This letter, which was opened and read by her husband, informed her that the LDS Church court determined her membership should be terminated because of her alleged fornication. Ellis was personally handed a letter also signed by a lay leader, which informed her of the Church court’s decision to remove her from membership.
The sisters sued the Church. They alleged two causes of action, advancing three theories of liability in support of each. The first cause of action is for harm from wilful or grossly negligent delivery of the expulsion letters to parishioners. It is sought to be grounded on (a) libel, (b) intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress and (c) invasion of privacy (public disclosure of private facts, intrusion upon seclusion, and placing parishioners in a false light before the public). The second cause of action was for harm from communicating the letters’ contents to the public. It is sought to be rested on (a) slander, (b) intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress and (c) invasion of privacy (public disclosure of private facts, intrusion upon seclusion, and placing parishioners in a false light before the public).
During the discovery phase of the litigation, the Church claimed privilege for its internal communications, and it obtained a summary judgment, which the sisters appealed, claiming that it did not deal with all of their theories of relief. The appellate court agreed, writing:
At the point when the church-member relationship is severed through an affirmative act either of a parishioner’s withdrawal or of excommunication by the ecclesiastical body, a different situation arises. In the event of withdrawal or of post-excommunication activity unrelated to the church’s efforts at effectuation of valid judicature, the absolute privilege from tort liability no longer attaches. …On this record, we are unable to ascertain whether parishioners did seek discovery of post-expulsion communications or conduct that lie dehors the outer bounds of valid ecclesiastical judicature. … If parishioners can show good cause for discovery of post-expulsion communications or conduct unrelated to the Church’s efforts at effectuating its valid judicature, they should be allowed to proceed further.
Similarly, a 1986 Ohio case involved a Jehovah’s Witness who was expelled and sued both for wrongful excommunication and for slander. The court of appeals reversed the trial court’s dismissal of the slander claim, writing:
Appellant has clearly set forth a legally recognized claim for relief. The claims of privilege as a defense are limited to those privileges which are recognized at law. These plus the other defenses may be determinable without having to resolve ecclesiastical questions. This will require some elements of evidence. Not knowing what, if anything, was said, the context in which it was spoken, or the degree of any ecclesiastical aspects thereof, dismissal of the slander claim was premature.[22]
To be sure, persons who attempt to get secular courts to review the relative arbitrariness of church disciplinary decision have a tough road. However, it may be a matter of time before this starts to change, and I would not underestimate the wherewithal of the plaintiff’s bar. Stay tuned ….
_________________________________________________
[1] I recognize that excommunication and disfellowshipping are two different level of discipline in the LDS Church. However, courts use the terms synonymously, as I do in this article.
[2] Yates v. El Bethel Primitive Baptist Church, 847 So.2d 331 (Ala. 2002); Devere Ganges v. New Central Baptist Church, 1989 WL 817108 (Pa.Com.Pl. 1989); Bowen v. Green, 275 S.C. 431, 272 S.E.2d 433 (S.C. 1980); Trett v. Lambeth, 195 S.W.2d 524 (Mo.App. 1946); Minton v. Leavell, 297 S.W. 615 (Tex.Civ.App. 1927).
[3] Korean Presbyterian Church of Seattle Normalization Committee v. Lee, 75 Wash.App. 833, 880 P.2d 565 (Wash.App. Div. 1,1994); Boyles v. Roberts, 222 Mo. 613, 121 S.W. 805 (Mo. 1909).
[4] Tran v. Fiorenza, 934 S.W.2d 740 (Tex.App.-Houston [1 Dist.] 1996); O’Connor v. Diocese of Honolulu, 77 Hawai’i 383, 885 P.2d 361 (Hawai‘i,1994); Hynes v. Lillis, 183 Mo.App. 190, 170 S.W. 396 (Mo.App. 1914).
[5] Linderholm v. Kansas Conference of the Swedish Evangelical Lutheran, 97 Kan. 212, 155 P. 24 (Kan. 1916).
[6] Howard v. Covenant Apostolic Church, Inc., 124 Ohio App.3d 24, 705 N.E.2d 385
(Ohio App. 1 Dist. 1997).
[7] Glass v. First United Pentecostal Church of DeRidder, 676 So.2d 724 (La.App. 3 Cir. 1996); Joiner v. Weeks, 383 So.2d 101 (La.App. 1980).
[8] Decker ex rel. Decker v. Tschetter Hutterian Brethren, Inc., 594 N.W.2d 357 (S.D. 1999).
[9] Thomas v. Fuerst, 345 Ill.App.3d 929, 803 N.E.2d 619 (Ill.App. 1 Dist. 2004).
[10] In re Godwin, — S.W.3d —-, 2009 WL 1616703 (Tex.App.-San Antonio 2009); C.L. Westbrook, Jr. v. Penley, 231 S.W.3d 389 (Tex. 2007); Gunn v. Mariners Church, Inc., Not Reported in Cal.Rptr.3d, 2005 WL 1253953 (Cal.App. 4 Dist. 2005); Penley v. C.L. Westbrook, Jr.,146 S.W.3d 220 (Tex.App.-Fort Worth 2004); Tubiolo v. Abundant Life Church, Inc.,167 N.C.App. 324, 605 S.E.2d 161 (N.C.App. 2004); McDaniel v. Phelps, Not Reported in N.E.2d, 2003 WL 70599 (Ohio App. 1 Dist. 2003); Sands v. Living Word Fellowship, 34 P.3d 955 (Alaska 2001); Marks v. Estate of Hartgerink, 528 N.W.2d 539 (Iowa 1995).
[11] Conover v. Intel, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 508311 (D.Or.,2006); Conover v. Archdiocese of Portland, Oregon, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2005 WL 174863 (D.Or.,2005); Franco v. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 21 P.3d 198 (Utah 2001), Hadnot v. Shaw, 826 P.2d 978 (Okl. 1992); Linke v. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 71 Cal.App.2d 667, 163 P.2d 44 (Cal.App. 1 Dist. 1945).
[12] Adam Liptak, “Impressions of Terrorism, Drawn from Court Files” NEW YORK TIMES, Feb. 19, 2008.
[13] Ammons v. North Pacific Conference of Seventh-Day Adventist, 103 Wash.App. 1061, Not Reported in P.3d, 2000 WL 1879053 (Wash.App. Div. 3 2000); Knauss v. Seventh-Day Adventist Ass’n of Colo., 117 Colo. 540, 190 P.2d 590 (Colo. 1948); Swan v. First Church of Christ, Scientist, in Boston, Mass, 225 F.2d 745 (9th Cir. 1955).
[14] Cole v. Elder Body of Tualatin Kingdom Hall Jehovah’s Witnesses, Slip Copy, 2009 WL 229978 (D.Or.,2009); Anderson v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. of New York, Inc., Not Reported in S.W.3d, 2007 WL 161035 (Tenn.Ct.App. 2007); Ferreira v. Harris, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 1720546 (N.D.Okla. 2006); Abrams v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. of New York, Inc., 306 Ill.App.3d 1006, 715 N.E.2d 798 (Ill.App. 1 Dist.,1999); Vauls v. Lambros, 78 Md.App. 450, 553 A.2d 1285 (Md.App. 1989); Rasmussen v. Bennett, 228 Mont. 106, 741 P.2d 755 (Mont. 1987); Paul v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. of New York, Inc., 819 F.2d 875 99th Cir. 1987); Deville v. Watch Tower Bible and Tract Soc., Inc., 503 So.2d 705 (La.App. 3 Cir.1987); Bates v. Kingdom Hall of the Congregation, Not Reported in N.E.2d, 1986 WL 2899 (Ohio App.1986); Tauvar v. Bar Harbor, Congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Inc., 633 F.Supp. 741 (D.Me. 1985).
[15] Shawn Francis Peters, Judging Jehovah’s Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution (Univ. of Kansas 2000) 17.
[16] See, e.g., Anderson v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. of New York, Inc, Not Reported in S.W.3d, 2007 WL 161035 (Tenn.Ct.App.,2007(“In the case before us, the Church argued that the complaint asserted causes of action based on an intrachurch dispute that the courts had no authority to adjudicate….Based on the reasons set out, we reverse the trial court’s actions in denying the defendants’ motion to dismiss for lack of subject matter jurisdiction based upon the First Amendment’s protection of decision of church tribunals on religious questions. We hold that all of the plaintiffs’ claims, as alleged in the complaint, are barred by the ecclesiastical abstention doctrine. Accordingly, the amended complaint is dismissed.”). The United States Supreme Court has addressed the review of church disciplinary matters in a hierarchical church and clearly adopted a hands-off policy when courts are asked to review such matters. Serbian Eastern Orthodox Diocese for the United States of America and Canada v. Milivojevich (1976), 426 U.S. 696, 96 S.Ct. 2372, 49 L.Ed.2d 151 (1976).
[17] Irvine v. Elliott, 206 Pa. 152, 55 A. 859 (Pa. 1903)(A priest of the Protestant Episcopal church cannot hold the bishop of his diocese and a member of his congregation liable in an action of trespass for an alleged wilful and malicious conspiracy, where it is shown that defendants combined to make charges against him for violation of church law, and for immorality and forgery, and supported these charges with evidence in a trial in an ecclesiastical court, which resulted in his degradation from the ministry, although it appears that defendants may have, to some extent, been influenced by vindictiveness and hatred.)
[18] Corporation of Presiding Bishop of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. Amos,483 U.S. 327, 107 S.Ct. 2862 (1987).
[19] The Mormon sexual abuse cases are: Flanigan v. McCrea, 93 Wash.App. 1085, Not Reported in P.2d, 1999 WL 58767 (Wash.App. Div. 1 1999); “Jane Doe” v. Corporation of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day Saints, 122 Wash.App. 556, 90 P.3d 1147 (Wash.App. Div. 1 2004); Doe v. Corp. of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 98 P.3d 429 (Utah App. 2004); Fleming v. Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 691331 (W.D.Wash. 2006); Fleming v. Corporation of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 753234 (W.D.Wash. 2006); R.K. v. Corporation of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 2506413 (W.D.Wash. 2006); R.K. v. Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 2661055 (W.D.Wash. 2006); R.K. v. Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2006 WL 2661059 (W.D.Wash. 2006); Doe v. Corporation of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 141 Wash.App. 407, 167 P.3d 1193 (Wash.App. Div. 1 2007); Olinger v. Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 521 F.Supp.2d 577 (E.D.Ky. 2007); Joseph v. Corporation of the President Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2008 WL 282163 (D.S.D. 2008); Fleming v. Church of Latter Day Saints, 275 Fed.Appx. 626 (9th Cir. 2008); Jack Doe 1 v. Corporation of Presiding Bishop of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2008 WL 4549075 (D.Or. 2008); Doe v. Corporation of The Ass’n of the Presiding Bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Slip Copy, 2009 WL 2132722 (D.Or. 2009); Kathleen B. v. Corporation of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in Cal.Rptr.3d, 2009 WL 2438419 (Cal.App. 4 Dist. 2009). The Seventh Day Adventists ones are Byrd v. Faber, 57 Ohio St.3d 56, 565 N.E.2d 584 (Ohio 1991); Byrd v. Faber, Not Reported in N.E.2d, 1992 WL 330189 (Ohio App. 5 Dist. 1992); Hustwaite v. Montana Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists, 303 Mont. 539, 18 P.3d 1033 (Table)(Mont. 2000); Mills v. Deehr, Not Reported in N.E.2d, 2004 WL 1047720 (Ohio App. 8 Dist. 2004); Doe v. Oregon Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists, 199 Or.App. 319, 111 P.3d 791 (Or.App. 2005).
The Jehovah’s Witnesses cases are Bryan R. v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. of New York, Inc., 738 A.2d 839 (Me. 1999); Meyer v. Lindala, 675 N.W.2d 635 (Minn.App. 2004); Berry v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. of New York, Inc., 152 N.H. 407, 879 A.2d 1124 (N.H. 2005); Beal v. Broadard, 19 Mass.L.Rptr. 114, Not Reported in N.E.2d, 2005 WL 1009632 (Mass.Super. 2005).
[20] See, e.g., Waite v. Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-Day Saints, Not Reported in F.Supp.2d, 2007 WL 951710 (E.D.Wash. 2007); Jacobsen v. Deseret Book Co., 287 F.3d 936 (10th Cir. 2002); Neilson v. Corporation of Presiding Bishop of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 113 Wash.App. 1050, Not Reported in P.3d, 2002 WL 31188444 (Wash.App. Div. 1,2002); Turner v. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 18 S.W.3d 877 (Tex.App.-Dallas 2000); Robinson v. Intermountain Health Care, Inc., 740 P.2d 262 (Utah App. 1987); Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v. Superior Court, 148 Ariz. 261, 714 P.2d 431 (Ariz.App. 1985).
[21] Hadnot v. Shaw, 826 P.2d 978 (Okl. 1992).
[22] Bates v. Kingdom Hall of the Congregation, Not Reported in N.E.2d, 1986 WL 2899 (Ohio App. 1986).
 
metatron
metatron 7 years ago

Thank you, Barbara. Another excellent post.
For you Bethel monitors, I say , "tick - tock", "tick - tock". Your time is coming. We will get you.
Draw some lines and extrapolate the trends, Watchtower. What do they tell you about the future? Here's a clue, it ain't Armageddon.
metatron
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 7 years ago

Thank you!
 
Farkel
Farkel 7 years ago

Barb,
As you know, I grew up in the Mormon territory of northern Utah. My favorite uncle is a very devout Mormon and has a "high priest" ranking in his Church. He and I discussed disfellowshiping a few years ago. He was disfellowshiped for adultery some 20 years ago. I told him how the JWs execute disfellowshiping (no pun intended) and asked him if the Mormons did it that way, too.
He was shocked! He said that he was never shunned by any of his LDS relatives, including his children. He wasn't shunned by his LDS friends, either. His friends were "cool" to him, but that didn't stop them from communicating with him. He stated that the worst part of being disfellowshiped as a Mormon was the shame of the stigma it caused. Everyone knew about it, and of course he wasn't allowed to engage in some of the rituals and activities that were common in the religion, but there no sitting in the back of the Church (like they make bad kids in elementary school do) and all the other crap that goes with the JW version of Df'ing.
Now, he may have played it down for me, but my Uncle is a very honest guy and we have been close all of our lives. He's only 7 years older than me and we pretty much grew up together.
If this is true, it goes to show that not all disfellowshiping is equal.
Farkel
 
undercover
undercover 7 years ago

Good article. Thanks for posting...
Suing a church body because they severed membership is a tough road, as pointed out, but I've always felt that if one wanted to take legal action after being DFd, one should sue the individual elders for libel or slander or alienation of affection, if one could show that the elders shared confidential information or publicly defamed.
Most of these elders mishandle the cases. They gossip among themselves, across other congregations even (I know...I've had elders tell me things that happened in JC meetings). They tell their wives who hit the gossip trail (we all know that's true...I've witnessed it; seen elders wives telling people in Saturday service what happened in a Friday night JC meeting). They report to the CO who reports to the Society (I was in a JC meeting and was told it was confidential, not to leave the room - then the CO shows up and he knows all about it - so much for confidentiality). Elders on Judicial Committees are ripe for suing, I would think.
Of course, I'm not a lawyer...there may be holes in every one of my scenerios, but it seems to me that one could hold individual elders liable for the pain and suffering caused for how they handle judicial matters.
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 7 years ago

In our culture, we want instant gratification. Changing the laws and the way court cases are decided are not usually an instant thing. It takes years of "chipping away" as the article points out.
 
Mary
Mary 7 years ago

Fantastic article Barbara. Thank you so much for posting it.
I've talked to several people about the legalities of enforced shunning and right now it's a very grey area, at least here in Canada. No court wants to say "you can't enforce shunning" because that goes against Freedom of Religion. However, when you point out that Freedom of Religion is supposed to be guaranteed to the individual, not to the religion itself, that's where it gets tricky.
I asked a Professor of Political Science about it and he said that right now, the government doesn't want to get involved in it. However, since the Canadian government will now "get involved" when the blood issue comes up with minors, there is hope that down the road they'll take a closer look at this disgusting trait that the WTS enforces on it's members, and make it illegal. Actually, I've spoken to Mouthy, Scully, Delilah, Gumby, and Bumblebee about this. Scully inparticular said '....if the Society were to lose their 'charitable status' because of their teaching their followers to shun family members, they'd get 'new light' on the subject pretty quick.'
Let us hope that further exposure of this horrific practice that tears families apart and has led to suicides, will eventually become illegal.
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 7 years ago

Jeffrey Breinholt has been an attorney with the United States Department of Justice National Security Division since 1990. In 2008, he joined the International Assessment and Strategy Center for a one year stint as Senior Fellow and Director of National Security Law. [ 1 ]
Breinholt earned his Bachelor of Arts from Yale College in 1985 and his Juris Doctor from the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law in 1988,
Breinholt has been Deputy Chief of the Counterterrorism Section at the U.S. Department of Justice and head of the Department of Justice's terrorist financing enforcement program since shortly before 9/11. He helped to create a special FBI unit devoted to U.S.-based fundraising by international terrorist organizations and the team of financial prosecutors he headed within the Counterterrorism Section is dedicated to prosecuting material support crimes.
He was previously Special Assistant U.S. Attorney in the District of Utah.
Breinholt teaches a class entitled Criminal Tax Litigation at the George Washington University Law School.
A profile of Breinholt's legal work in the New York Times described Breinholt as believing that "terrorism prosecutions work" and that "American Muslims are prickly, litigious and poorly integrated into American society." New York Times, Impressions of Terrorism, Drawn From Court Files,
Breinholt is the older brother of Utah based folk muscian Peter Breinholt [ 2 ] and is the husband of prominent international attorney, Moni SenGupta.

[edit] Criticism
Breinholt attracted public attention [ 3 ] when an article he published described public criticism of civil liberties as an "eccentric" concern.
Jeffrey A. Breinholt, "Getting Real About Privacy: Eccentric Expectations in the Post-9/11 World" (September 10, 2005). bepress Legal Series. Working Paper 770. http://law.bepress.com/expresso/eps/770

[edit] Books
◦Counterterrorism Enforcement: A Lawyer’s Guide (DOJ Office of Legal Education 2004)
◦Taxing Terrorism, From Al Capone to Al Qaida: Fighting Violence Through Financial Regulation (2007)

[edit] References
1.^[1]
2.^Deseret News, April 26th, 2003
3.^ [www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/05/AR2005110501366_4.html]
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Breinholt"
 
AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 7 years ago

The last paragraph in the article (not at the end of the footnotes) sure caught my attention especially since the author of this article is an attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice. We can only hope he is speaking out of knowledge that there is a chance in the near future that wrongful excommunication will be redressable.
To be sure, persons who attempt to get secular courts to review the relative arbitrariness of church disciplinary decision have a tough road. However, it may be a matter of time before this starts to change, and I would not underestimate the wherewithal of the plaintiff’s bar. Stay tuned ….
For new ones on this board, the only JW case Mr. Breinholt posted the complete decision was #16 in the list, which was our lawsuit, filed against the Watchtower on November 2002.
Barbara
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 7 years ago

Hi Barb :smile:
I have to assume the WT eventually prevailed, but do you know the specific outcome of the 1986 Ohio case?
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

I think that in the future, we will see some legal requirements where a new member will sign away his ability to sue if he breaks "JW law". At Bethel and Gilead, we signed so many 'liability release' types of forms, indicating our full volunteer status, that it had the affect of totally insulating the hiearchy from lawsuits. They could do as they pleased. That bothered me quite a bit.
I do think there is a very real legal dillema for the GB regarding minors who got baptized under duress, and the GB's current position that such a baptism is a binding, lifelong committment. That might be an area to plow in the future.
This goes back to Metatron's other post on elders, and the quality of them, relating to the liability that they create for the GB. So many disfellowshippings were poorly handled. (really, a minority, a small percentage at best could probably be described as "fair" if you wanted to go there) If this dam breaks, it's going to be the end of JW's.
The one huge disagreement I have has nothing to do with JW bullshit prophecies or dogma. It's that they insist on their authority and enforce that through extreme shunning. If you take away this lynchpin of control, then members can be free to discover the truth about this cult on their own without having to worry about being cut off from their family ever again. If you take away shunning, you take away the control of the GB, and people will then be able to come, or go, as they please.
Guess what will happen to JW's if people can just leave?
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

yup the clock is ticking for the WBTS. Imo they are quite poor compared to those other religions mentioned in the article and to avoid costly litigation should act quickly to reduce the severity of their extreme disfellowshipping policies especially as these appear to be a lot stricter and potentially more devastating for individuals than the other religions studied. I'd like to see a little wisdom, faith and discretion for a change, but I think we're gonna get more of the usual head in the sand virginity
 
cognac
cognac 7 years ago

if the Society were to lose their 'charitable status' because of their teaching their followers to shun family members, they'd get 'new light' on the subject pretty quick.'
Are there any updates on this???
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 7 years ago

It would be interesting to see how this issue is played out overseas. I wonder if the Watchtower will have a harder time defending their respective legal entities throughout the world when it comes to unethical treatment of members in countries like France, Spain, Russia, Germany, etc.
 
AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 7 years ago

Here from the Comments section of Mormon Matters are 27 Responses to “Is Wrongful Excommunication Legally Redressable?”
http://mormonmatters.org/2009/09/02/is-wrongful-excommunication-legally-redressable/

Perhaps an XJW point of view would be helpful. Anybody want to comment on mormonmatters.org?



◦1 Jon Miranda Sep 2nd, 2009 at 6:20 am
If the Spirit indicated that excommunication was the answer, how would suing solve anything? Man’s laws don;t mean anything in the spiritual world.
◦2 Mike M. Sep 2nd, 2009 at 8:16 am
Excellent post! I hope you write this up for publication. Send it to Dialogue at the least.
◦3 Holden Caulfield Sep 2nd, 2009 at 8:24 am
“If the Spirit indicated that excommunication was the answer, how would suing solve anything? Man’s laws don;t mean anything in the spiritual world.”
Polygamy?
◦4 Jon Miranda Sep 2nd, 2009 at 8:26 am
Holden:
Some apply and some don’t.
◦5 Keri Brooks Sep 2nd, 2009 at 8:55 am
This is interesting, thanks for sharing.
◦6 Tom Sep 2nd, 2009 at 9:06 am
Still, Mormons might be uneasy that they occupy a leading spot with the Witnesses in the frequency of lawsuits over their excommunication decisions.
I’m not. The numbers are so small that I don’t think they really say anything about the relative heavy-handedness of these particular non-mainstream Christian religions’ excommunication policies.
Plus, it doesn’t really matter, but I think it’s a stretch to say that Mormons “occupy a leading spot with the Witnesses.” They had ten lawsuits, we had five. It’s more like we occupy a middle spot with the Adventists, who had three. But, whatever.
I’m very glad to see that the courts keep their noses out of Religions’ membership decisions.
◦7 Mike S Sep 2nd, 2009 at 9:29 am
#1: Jon
I’m not a lawyer so this is just my opinion. I agree that man’s laws don’t apply in the spiritual world. However, churches do exist in societies with laws and policies. The church even fundamentally agrees to uphold the “laws of the land” in the Articles of Faith. I think the courts have rightly stepped back from determining whether an excommunication is of the “Spirit” or not, but I don’t think that’s the point here.
I think the point is how things were handled. If someone was called to a court, didn’t go, and their spouse found out for the first time about an alleged affair from a letter left in a mailbox, that doesn’t have anything to do with the spirit suggesting that excommunication may have been the right decision, but could still potentially have been in violation of the laws of the land (as well as laws of common courtesy). We no longer announce church court decisions over the pulpit (which is good). We don’t proselyte in countries where it is prohibited. We got a temple in E Germany because our members followed the laws. So to saw man’s laws don’t mean anything in the spiritual realm is a bit dogmatic.
◦8 Steve Evans Sep 2nd, 2009 at 10:10 am
Excellent stuff, Jeff. I would think by now that most excommunication lawsuits are thrown out pretty quickly.
◦9 Dave Sep 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am
Thanks for collecting cases, Jeff.
I take issue with your phrase summarizing some of the suits directed at the Church alleging “negligence in permitting sexual abuse to occur within the religious settings.” I believe what is alleged is negligence in failing to prevent sexual abuse from occuring — “permitting” suggests there was knowledge of the misconduct and a decision to allow it to continue, which is not alleged in the cases I am familiar with.
I believe the legal issue turns on defining the duty of a congregation or denomination to put procedures in place to prevent such conduct from happening. Only if they negligently fail in that duty (which is not equivalent to “permitting” the misconduct) and the court finds negligent failure to meet that duty to be actionable would the congregation or denomination be potentially liable for the misconduct of an officer or member of a congregation.
◦10 no-man Sep 2nd, 2009 at 11:10 am
Don’t mean to turn the topic, but may I suggest a possible subject for another potential legal issue? If an adult male in the church is the subject of official church discipline (disfellowshipment, excommunication) because of homosexual behavior with other adult males, and he is later reinstated into full fellowship, an annotation is attached to his membership records that restricts him from being called to work with children or youth in any church calling. While I can see the need for such an annotation if an adult is convicted of any form of child abuse, in this case, the church is essentially making a permanent claim that the homosexual male is a danger to children or youth. Seems that said adult male could make a case that he is being wrongfully accused of child abuse, and were such an allegation be made known to anyone other than the man’s bishop, I could see a lawsuit in the works.
An interesting problem is that, to my knowledge, even a man who has committed adultery multiple times with women of any legal age, is not subject to this annotation rule. So, for example, a serial date rapist does not have his membership records annotated if he is reinstated to full fellowship. Why the disparity?
◦11 John M. Sep 2nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
#10 Where are you getting your information regarding the annotation of records of those who have been disciplined for homosexual behavior?
◦12 alice Sep 2nd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“The numbers are so small that I don’t think they really say anything about the relative heavy-handedness of these particular non-mainstream Christian religions’ excommunication policies.”
Could it be that a great number of excommunications are visited on people who are happy enough to be leaving the community of saints anyway?
◦13 brjones Sep 2nd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
#9 – Dave, I don’t think this is quite as clear cut a distinction as it might seem. I only looked at one of the cases, and in that case it appears that when the bishop learned of a member’s molestation of his stepdaughter, he didn’t take any action to correct it, including reporting it to the Stake Prsident. Clearly there was knowledge at that point, and you could argue there was a decision to permit it to continue. More interesting to me, though, is that when the man was eventually brought before a disciplinary council for molesting his two stepdaughters for 6-8 years, he was only disfellowshipped.
In any event, the allegation in the claim was simply negligence. It didn’t specify “failiure to prevent” or “permitting abuse to continue.”
◦14 sxark Sep 2nd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
I understand that putting a letter, without postage and processing from the Post Office, in a mailbox is illegal. So, although, the act of excommunication is not judicially actionable, the method of presenting information of Church action can be addressed by the courts.
I amm surprised to hear that the court would not get involved when Church action provided motivation for “vindictiveness and hatred” toward an individual. For wouldn’t acts of vindictveness and hatred toward an individual violate that person’s rights?
And should someone be charged with certain acts of vindictiveness and hatred toward someone, I think it would be a poor defence to say, – “I did these acts because my Church excommunicated that person.” However, if it was determined that the excommunication was unwarrented, could the Church be held liable for instigating etc.?
◦15 brjones Sep 2nd, 2009 at 1:04 pm
#14 – I guess it would depend on what the particular acts of “vindictiveness and hatred” entailed. I don’t think vindictiveness and hatefulness are violations of a person’s rights, unless they are expressed through actions that independently violate someone’s rights. Even at that, you’d have to show some kind of agency relationship between the church and the person performing the acts in order to hold the church liable. If someone tells me a bunch of horrible lies about someone and I go and assault that person, the person who told me the lies isn’t going to be held liable for my actions, even though he may have been the sole motivating factor for them.
◦16 sxark Sep 2nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
brjones:
I don’t want to compare with KKK, but I thought they were successfully held liable for instigating actions etc.
◦17 brjones Sep 2nd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
#16 – I’m not familiar with that case, and I’m definitely not an expert. I’d bet though, that it was found that the KKK either intended, or at least knew (or should have known), that their behavior would lead to the ultimate result. I guess you could argue that wrongfully excommunicating someone could lead to that kind of ostracism and mistreatment, but I think that’s a tough sell absent something more. I guess “agency” is the wrong term, but I do think you’d have to show at least constructive knowledge that their actions would lead to the actions against the person, and, again, I think that’d be pretty tough.
◦18 sxark Sep 2nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
#17- Well, according to Jeff Breinholt, who wrote the preamble here, the court didn’t get involved anyway.
I see the KKK case as ’slipping the foot in the door’, because I understand that the governing body of the local KKK provided its membership with info, of such a nature, that individuals members decided [on their own], to go out and kill someone. The relatives of the victim sued and won and received the deed to the KKK’s property.
However, Church action is confidential, but word is bound to eventually seep out and should individuals take action of vindictivenes and hatred against someone and it was later found that there was no grounds for the Church action [excommunication], then it only seems reasonable to include the Church in a lawsuit because it was a motivating factor.
◦19 brjones Sep 2nd, 2009 at 2:12 pm
#18 – Well, I’ll agree with you that there’s no telling what courts are going to do, so anything is possible. I don’t think that would be a reasonable extension of the current state of the law, though, even considering the KKK situation. Not that that means much.
◦20 sxark Sep 2nd, 2009 at 2:24 pm
brjones:
The main question remains: “Is wrongfull excommunication legally redressable?” I would say: – Only if such wrongfull action results in something more than someone getting their feelings hurt. Therefore, ‘pain and suffering’, would not count.
◦21 brjones Sep 2nd, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I’m not in favor of this kind of crap cluttering up the legal system. The church is a private organization, and can choose who it wants to allow into its membership, and for what reasons. It should also be able to decide whom to exclude. As far as I’m concerned, it should be ablet to exclude for whatever reason, or for no reason at all. The only instances in which it should be legally redressable are those that have been discussed – where they may have, in the process of the excommunication or in delivering it, committed a form of slander against the individual, or where their actions have directly led to the person being otherwise harmed. I just don’t know why anyone would waste their time or money fighting back against a private group that has excluded them. Especially in the case of the mormon church, where excommunication inevitably comes with an open-arms invitation to come back to the fold after certain processes have been followed.
◦22 JD Sep 2nd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
If one feels that (s)he have been wrongly excommunicated, is there no appeals process within the Church itself that one might seek redress?
◦23 Ray Sep 2nd, 2009 at 4:28 pm
22 – Yes, there is – and sometimes it works.
◦24 Jeff Breinholt Sep 2nd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Thanks for the great comments. My research is a work-in-progress, and your opinions are helping me refine it. One of the comments raised a question about my wording. When I describe a case as involving “negligence in failing to prevent sex abuse in a religious setting,” the assumption in law is that a duty was owed (where negligence implies that a “reasonable person” should have known.) I can see how non-lawyers might not see this very subtle distinction, but I can easily refine it with better language. Thanks again. I’ll address the growing Mormon sex abuse scandals in a future post, along with Mormon asylum, Mormon crime, and Mormon employment discrimination cases.
◦25 Peter Sep 2nd, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Excellent post, Jeff. Any idea of what happened to the Hadnot case on remand? There’s nothing on Westlaw, which seems like it might hint at settlement, but it could just as well have been unpublished for all I can tell.
◦26 Ryan Sep 3rd, 2009 at 4:24 am
I hope you go forward with this and get it published in a legal journal
◦27 Stephen M (Ethesis) Sep 3rd, 2009 at 5:49 am
In Texas we had an interesting fairly recent case involving a church that felt it had to follow the biblical injunction of public reprimands when people refused to repent, so that it discussed the affair the couple was having as a part of removing them from fellowship and calling on them to repent. Interesting case, including efforts to change it into a pastoral counseling case.

 
PSacramento
PSacramento 7 years ago

Its kind of simple, really.
When a person is excommunicated from a RCC for example, they are thrown out of the RCC and a recod is made of way, yes they can always be reinstated, but no one is actaully told to not deal with them, sometimes its on the contrary, because the RCC wants them back, in good faith of course.
The reason the WT doesn't do it like that and is so much more strict is because they KNOW that the DF'd person is a risk, a liability to their control over the friends and familiy of the Df'd person, they know that many JW's are JW's of the "lip serive" type and as such, they may be turned if they continue to deal with the DF'd person.
It has zero to do about what is good for the congregation and zero to do about apostsay and everythign to do about control of those still JW's.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

So then, to really refine this in a sentence or two, does it seem to everyone participating in this discussion that the best hope in bringing down JW's lies in establishing the legal ability to overcome shunning?
I would say especially in the case of a minor who was baptized and didn't realize what they were getting into, yes, there is a great chance that they can challenge their initial baptism, at which point, they can no longer be ecclesiastically shunned. (which doesn't rule out the GB coming up with more rules against such ones, I realize)
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 7 years ago

I don't know Jeff, I don't think that, as things are now and how when one is baptized NOW he/she makes a vow to the organization and its rules, in front of 100's of witnesses, that there is much of a legal leg to tand on.
Perhaps for those that were baptized and did NOT make a commitment to the WT, those before the 90's I think, not sure when the new vows were instated, maybe those ones can have a legal option, but other ones? people who knew what it meant to be disfellowshipped and know what would cause them to be so treated, they don't have much of a leg to stand on.
 
zarco
zarco 7 years ago

Jeff,
I am only a guy with an internet connection, but I don’t think there is a legal case to be established. However, there is a human rights case that can be made. If ones rights are abused by the interrogation techniques in a judicial committee (I wonder if some could claim a harassing or threatening environment) or by the shunning that happens thereafter (if one is disfellowshipped). A government would have every right to establish guidelines to protect human rights for any organization receiving tax-exempt status or even operating within a country or jurisdiction.
The legal approach makes some sense, but it might be the human rights angle that "brings down JWs".
zarco
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

I still think that the way they rope in minors is a potentially rich source, a new way to attack legally this immoral and unscriptural doctrine?
 

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Article: Is Wrongful Excommunication Legally Redressable? About Mormons, JWs and other religions
by AndersonsInfo 7 years ago 20 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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PSacramento
PSacramento 7 years ago

I think that if the minor is baptized a minor (obviously), then you may have something.
The WT is a corporation, correct?
And as such, when one makes a legal vow of loyality to said corporation and vows to abide by its rule, or face its established penalties, then they are liable for breaking that vow, unless it was made under coersion or as a minor.
 

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(ohio app.
1061, not reported in p.3d, 2000 wl 1879053 (wash.app.
1085, not reported in p.2d, 1999 wl 58767 (wash.app.



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Odd Thomas - “Of Whom Shall I Be in Dread?” - WT 7/15/12
by 00DAD 3 years ago
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by pixel a year ago
cedars
10 things that happened in 2012 - my review
by cedars 3 years ago
avaddohn94
WE NEED MORE MONEY! (Letter sent to Mexico re: JW Broadcasting of May 2015).
by avaddohn94 6 months ago
transhuman68
Daniel was confused.
by transhuman68 3 years ago



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The Real origin of the 1914 Doctrine
by barry 15 years ago 12 Replies latest 15 years ago   jw friends
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barry
barry 15 years ago

I am a baptised Seventh Day Adventist and Ive had studies for about 6mths with a very nice JW lady. Ive learnt about the WT teachings and attended the KH and the memorial. n There are some similarities with the Adventist and JW teachings such as baptism by imersion, the state of the dead,some adventists dont vote and some Adventists beleive with the WT society in the Arian doctrine that Jesus is a created being and the holy spirit is a force but the vast majority beleive the trinity doctrine. Both are hierarchical systems. Also the 1914 doctrine I beleive has its roots in adventism and so a brief history is appropriate to show the connection. In the 19th century a Baptist minister William Miller used Daniel 8-14 '' unto 2300 days then shall the santury be cleansed'' to predict the physical comming of christ when this prophecy failed to occure the prophecy was reinterpreted to be the beginning of the investigative judgement. A judgement that occures before the second comming. I had a book I cant find it to quote to you, but I remember reading about Charles Taze Russell with an adventist group predicted the second comming for 1874, when nothing happened the prophecy was reinterpreted to be a secret comming or parousia and this was again repeted again in 1914. Both the Adventist 1844 doctrine and the WT 1914 doctrine rely on the day year principle. Both in daniel 4 and daniel 8 the word day is not mentioned, and in order for this formula to work the word day must exist. Daniel has evenings and mornings and in Daniel 4 only years are mentioned. Neither is there any rationale or authority to associate the 40 year judgement of Numbers 14 with the prophecy of daniel of Daniel 8 or Daniel 4 to do so is presumptuous and arbitrary. What would we say if today someone randomly selected and connected two unrelated verses of scripture to conceive a new religious claim? One would be extremely naive to accept it without question. The year for a day principle is thought to be valid in Daniel 4 & Daniel 8 because it seems to work in Daniel 9. However no day for is necessary here remember Daniel is thinking about the 70 years Jerusalem is in ruins early in the chapter and then Gabriel explains the messiah will appear 7 times seventy years or 490 years. The Adventist Church by adopting this position and beleiving in an Investigative Judgement in 1844 has taught an uncertain gospel. A persons sins are only provisionally forgiven and then only blotted out in the Investigative Judgement. Adventists have struggled with this teaching for 150 years the church promotes this doctrine even though it has made 50 changes to it, while scolars openly dissagree with the traditional teaching and half the membership dissagree with all or at least part of it. From what I have learnt the WT with its position on the 1914 teaching denies the bodily return of Christ by saying the resurrected Christ didnt have a physical body.This a Ngostic beleif from the 2nd and it was claimed by the Gnostics Our Lord didnt have a body of flesh and bones, because that is Satans realm and only our souls are from God. It is obvious to the writer when these false predictions were made other teachings had to be invented to cover there the first LIE. When will these groups be honest to face the truth. WE would all teach and hope our kids to be more honest than this. Barry Ford Opinions can be wrong but love is never wrong
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Barry,
Thank you for your contribution. Many of us here know of the connection between Adventism and Russell. However, very few of us are familiar with the Adventist tradition like you are. I am sure you will get many questions and comments. Again, thank you for your very interesting contribution.
 
MacHislopp
MacHislopp 15 years ago


Hello Barry,
thanks for you post. As Iarc wrote, many of us
are aware about the "origins", at the time of C.T. Russsell,
Barbour,Storrs atc. It would be interesting, to write more
concerning the 187O's - 1914 period of time , just before
the death of C.T. Russell.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
 
Thirdson
Thirdson 15 years ago


Hi Barry,
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the start of the Adventist movement. I've learnt a great deal in the past 5 years about the early history of the JW religion.
My view is that these new unorthodox religions not only attracted flaky ideas about Biblical numerology and prophecy but also delved in to the pseudo-science popular in the late Victorian age. The Watchtower society has a history of promoting quack medical devices, promoting phrenology, promoting pyramidology denouncing real science (vaccinations etc), crusading against aluminum, and setting end-dates for the world.
Most of these things have gone now, quietly hidden or regarded as “old-light”. However, despite all the junk discarded on way, the idea about 1914 (one date out of numerous speculations) and the ban on blood transfusions remain. Most JWs don’t see these in the context of the bizarre former teachings and the modern explanation, however contrived, is believed. For the WTS, they have to retain these because the 1914 doctrine is crucial to the leadership’s position and “blood” would cause too many legal problems should they admit to their mistake.
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
 
JT
JT 15 years ago


excellent post - this poster represents in MY MIND the New Bible Student that JW will face in the future- One who knows how to do research on the WT ORG- and the points he has stated were on the money
we welcome you to this forum
just a word of caution- with this Knowledge that you have about wt history- you will find that the person who studies with you - if they are your avg jw - have little or no idea that the information you mentioned about russel is all true -
in fact if you talk TOO MUCH about your information you will find that the jw will try thier very best to change the subject matter
jw don't like to discuss thier past- but of course a man who knows not his past has no idea where he is going in the future
continue to do your research and raise questions with the je who comes to your house and you will see that the person will start to veiw and treat you differently --- they have no choice - it's part of thier Programming as you willl see shortly
just giving you a heads up
james
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 15 years ago


Barry,
Thank you for your post, most informative and much appreciated.
Back in the late 80’s I read the book issued by the Adventists entitled, ‘Seventh-Day Adventists Believe….A Biblical Exposition Of 27 Fundamental Doctrines’.
Apart from the many doctrinal similarities between the SDA and the JW’s I was struck buy the allowances granted within the church for individuals who deviate from accepted SDA teachings with no fear of punitive action. I was also struck by the enormous amount of admirable practical work the SDA does for the community.
I am intrigued to know whether those who differ with some of the fundamental doctrines of the church are treated by their peers. For example can they hold office? Are they viewed as having a spiritual problem? Do people try to influence acceptance of the ‘company line’ by peer pressure.
The SDA appear to be able to maintain unity within, despite the allowance of divergent views. The WTS is not just hierarchical but tyrannical and obsessed beyond compassion and Christian ethic in their quest to maintain control by punishing any who openly display divergent thinking.
Thank you again for your informative post, we would love to hear more about the inner life of the average SDA.
HS
 
MadApostate
MadApostate 15 years ago


Barry's being a SDA and having studied with a JW for 6 months sparks my interest, since over a several decade period, I cannot recall ever meeting a JW who had previously been a SDA, real or perceived.
I don't even recall even "hearing" of a SDA becoming a JW. Since SDAs and JWs are both historical and doctrinal "cousins", there are good reasons FOR a "disgruntled" SDA to jump ship to the JWs, but there are also good reasons why a "questioning/inquiring" SDA would NOT want to become a JW.
Does anyone know a JW that was previously a SDA, and what motivated the switch?
 
Flip
Flip 15 years ago


Thanks for the post barry. You might also inquire what prompted millenarian thought in the first place, here’s one example from an article in the 1998 November issue of Sky & Telescope regarding the significant affect the Leonid meteor shower had on the East coast of the United States in 1833.
“”The world did not end that night, nor the next morning, nor the next Sunday as many fearfully anticipated. But the meteor storm was said to be the main topic of conversation in every circle of the community for weeks afterward. Prayer meetings were held, and for a long time many firmly believed that the Day of Judgment remained imminent and awaited it daily. Historians have speculated that the shower contributed to the great millenarian religious revivals that swept the United States in the 1830s -- movements that permanently influenced the national character and produced new sects and denominations that are with us today. ””
“”For that matter, an Internet search reveals a scattering of people who, 165 years after the night of the great shower, are waiting still. One is Don Gettys, pastor of the McDonald Road Seventh-day Adventist Church in McDonald, Tennessee. He has posted a recent sermon in which he says he believes "the great meteor shower in 1833 did alert us to the beginning of the time of the end."”
The entire content of the Sky & Telescope can be found here -
http://www.skypub.com/sights/meteors/leonids/leonids_1833.html
Flip
 
waiting
waiting 15 years ago


Welcome to our forum, Barry.

1914 teaching denies the bodily return of Christ by saying the resurrected Christ didnt have a physical body.This a Ngostic beleif from the 2nd and it was claimed by the Gnostics Our Lord didnt have a body of flesh and bones, because that is Satans realm and only our souls are from God. - Barry
I don't know much about the SDA nor Gnostics. What you posted was interesting in the above quote and makes sense in a fundamental kinda of way.....not that I agree with it....but I can see where they'd get that idea.
I dated a SDA many years ago. His father was a doctor, and he was an engineering student. Nice guy (I'll remain silent on our further details). However, he could really reel off the SDA teachings, charts, etc. We never discussed religion that much, but he felt he would be quite capable of trampling my beliefs. Humility wasn't one of his gifts.
I wasn't interested in him in *that* way, so I'd just have to guess at the religious outcome.
Seeing that he and his father were well educated; were they unique or does your church have any negative guidelines like the jw's about attending college?
waiting
 
toddy
toddy 15 years ago

?
 
barry
barry 15 years ago

I would like to thank you all for your replies I didn't know how I would be received on this forum but you've all been very kind. Yes Thirdson Prenology and other weird 19th century idears found there way into Adventism. J.T I don't study with the JW lady but we still remain good friends she asked me over to see a video but I haven't been over yet. You had the most questions Hillary-Step you know about the 27 fundamentals. SDAs can differ without any punitive action , but if one is employed by the church as a pastor or conference president and were to teach in a non traditional way there job could be under threat but disfellowshiping would be very unusual. Disfellowshiping is resurved for gross sin such as adultery etc. An SDA Dr of theology was sacked fore his views in the 80s while a current President of the East -Finland SDA conference has completed a doctoral dissertation on the same subject and is in good standing. Dr Ford remains a loyal member of the church. So if an ordinary member or an elder little or nothing would be done but then the christian life is more than just argueing theology. And do they have a spiritual problem , well yes and no, the right would beleive I had a problem and I with the left would beleive the right has a broblem. There is a more interactive bible study at the weekly study where people are allowed to express their views and even sometimes disagree with the company line. Also their is no restriction on attending other churches as in the witnesses. Flip im suprised you picked that one up but the meteor shower in 1833 is a bit old now what do you think? Waiting I was just making a point about the WT position being similar to the gnostic beleif that our Lord didn't have a body of flesh and bones. The WT says this happened after the cross, while the gnostics beleived he never had a real body. the gnostics also beleived that Simon of Cerine was Crusified in place of our lord. Yours in Christ Barry Ford Thinking is as fundamental a duty for a christian as praying
 
barry
barry 15 years ago

I nearly forgot you Waiting Coledge is ok the church runs many schools coledges and universities.
 
MrMoe
MrMoe 15 years ago

Barry - Thanks for posting this. Many of us are aware that the 1914 date originates with the fact that C.T. Russell when he broke away from the SAD and made a few adjustments to his liking. If I could ask, could you please post some basics of the SAD beliefs? I am aware of many of their doctrines (taking away the bible after a period of time and so on) but I think some of their beliefs would be interesting for many of us here to read.
 

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No part of this world? Watchtower lawyer an interfaith delegate
by betterdaze 6 years ago 10 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower scandals
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betterdaze
betterdaze 6 years ago

IGE Delegation Meets with Vietnam's Prime Minister (24 June 2008, last updated 02 April 2009 )
"The IGE delegation included IGE's President, Dr. Chris Seiple, and IGE's Chairman of the Board, Dr. Bob Roberts (founder and Senior Pastor of NorthWood Church in Keller, Texas); Dennis Jeffares, the International Director for Glocal Ventures (Northwood Church's development NGO); Dr. Barrett Duke, Vice President for Public Policy and Research and Director of the Southern Baptist Convention's Research Institute of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission; Dr.Thomas F. Farr, the former first director of the State Department's office of international religious freedom; James Standish, the Director of Legislative Affairs for the Seventh-day Adventist Church's world headquarters; Alan Gallina, a Human Rights Specialist with the Office of General Counsel for Jehovah's Witnesses; Jared Daugherty, IGE's Program Officer for East Asia; Dr. David Rambo of the Christian and Missionary Alliance (former president of Canadian Bible College and Theological College, now Ambrose University College); and Cardinal Theodore Edgar McCarrick, Archbishop Emeritus of Washington, D.C."
"Alan Gallina thanked the PM for the government's invitation to the Jehovah's Witnesses to register, and James Standish expressed his gratitude for the recent registration of the Seventh Day Adventists (Christmas 2006)."
* * *
http://www.jw-media.org/newsroom/index.htm.
Alan Gallina, Office of General Counsel for Jehovah’s Witnesses
Telephone: +845-306-0711
~Sue
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 6 years ago

By it's actions, the Watchtower Society has made pubilc that it is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
 
Justitia Themis
Justitia Themis 6 years ago

"page not found" That didn't take them long. :wink:
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 6 years ago

See if this works... I got his name from this press release on Eritrea a few months ago... http://www.jw-media.org/frames/africa_middle_east.htm
~Sue
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 6 years ago

What part of "No part of this world" didn't I understand??
 
parakeet
parakeet 6 years ago

Alan Gallina, a Human Rights Specialist with the Office of General Counsel for Jehovah's Witnesses
Calling a dub lawyer a Human Rights Specialist is like calling a wolf a Lambs Rights Specialist.
 
Farkel
Farkel 6 years ago

parakeet,
You beat me to it!
:Alan Gallina, a Human Rights Specialist with the Office of General Counsel for Jehovah's Witnesses
Under Sadaam Hussein, Iraq chaired the U.N.'s Human Rights group.
But the difference between the Watchtower and Hussein's Iraq, is that some people actually had human rights in Iraq.
Farkel
 
parakeet
parakeet 6 years ago

Farkel: parakeet, You beat me to it!
At last! Sweet revenge for the many times I've started a post, only to find that Farkel's already said it, and said it better.
 
zengalileo
zengalileo 6 years ago

what does IGE stand for?
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 6 years ago

http://www.globalengage.org/pressroom/releases/717-ige-delegation-meets-with-vietnams-prime-minister.html
 
MyBrainHurts
MyBrainHurts 6 years ago

I think I am going to vomit.



 

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CS Monitor. Religion in New England...the future of Religion. Some Jehovah's Witnesses become Seventh Day Adventists.?
by Balaamsass 3 years ago 12 Replies latest 2 years ago   social current
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Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

Who's filling America's church pews
In PurItan New England, Protestant and Catholic churches are declining while evangelical and Pentecostal groups are rising. Why the nation's most secular region may hint at the future of religion.
By G. Jeffrey MacDonald | Christian Science Monitor – Sun, Dec 23, 2012

More From Christian Science Monitor

On a snowy 20-degree day in December, the visitors shiver as they move among vestiges of a long-closed Pizza Hut on this city's struggling main street. A salad bar teeters off kilter. Dust collects on the dismantled facade of a soda dispenser. A few bolted-down tables and chairs remain – usable, but only after a good cleaning.
Yet none of this bothers the three leaders from the Auburn Seventh-day Adventist Church, who seem warmed by holy fire to carry out their task: Help transform the pizza joint into something with a bit more piety. Their church has reached capacity, having doubled attendance in the past year. So they've crossed the Androscoggin River to plant a second church, the Ark, in the heart of one of the nation's least religious states.
This won't be worship as usual. Starting early in the new year, a smorgasbord of community services will be served where deep-dish pepperoni used to be the lure. Vegetarian cooking classes and health seminars, hydrotherapy treatments and massage instruction, marriage classes and smoking-cessation clinics – all will be free of charge and led by volunteers. A vegan restaurant will open to bring in revenue. Worship services will begin next spring.
Recommended: Are you smarter than an atheist? A religious quiz
"It's almost like you have to use a place like a Pizza Hut," says Tracy Vis, a new member of the Auburn church. "Some people are not going to be comfortable with [traditional church buildings] or traditions. But they'll come here and listen to these different messages."
The Ark is symbolic of a transforming religious landscape in New England. Long defined by dominant Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant institutions, the terrain is undergoing a fundamental shift as traditional denominations cope with steep declines in membership and shutter churches and seminaries.
At the same time, evangelical and Pentecostal groups are doing just the opposite. They're expanding their footprint in what statistics show are America's four least religious states: Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and Massachusetts. And because more and more Americans today identify with no particular religion, what happens in this land of spiritual free agency could offer insights into the future of religion across the country. The recent changes in New England have been significant:
•Between 2000 and 2010, the Catholic church has lost 28 percent of its members in New Hampshire and 33 percent in Maine. It has closed at least 69 parishes (25 percent) in greater Boston.
•Over the same period, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) established 118 new churches in northern New England, according to the 2010 Religion Census. About 50 of them inhabit buildings once owned by mainline churches.
•Other denominations are growing, too, including Pentecostals: Assemblies of God (11 new churches in Massachusetts) and International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (13 new churches in Massachusetts and Maine). The Seventh-day Adventists, an evangelical group, opened 55 new churches in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine between 2000 and 2010, according to the Religion Census. Muslims and Mormons are experiencing membership gains as well.
More change looms on the horizon. In 2013, northern New England will lose its only mainline Protestant seminary and accredited graduate school of religion when the Bangor Theological Seminary closes in May. Three months later, Southern Baptists will open Northeastern Baptist College – the first SBC-affiliated pastor-training college in northern New England – in Bennington, Vt.
"The old establishment is crumbling in the sense that fewer people are going to church and buildings are being sold off," says Todd Johnson, director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass. "The old expectations aren't there anymore, and that creates an openness to new brands."
New England's changing religious character comes as religious ties decline around the country. Nearly 1 in 5 Americans (19.6 percent) now says he or she has no religious affiliation, up from 15 percent just five years ago, according to Pew Research Center surveys.
Faith remains strong: More than 90 percent of Americans still believe in God or a universal spirit, according to Gallup research, even as fewer claim a particular religious "brand" or identity. More people are opting not to align themselves with one religious denomination or tradition, but their interest in faith remains keen and creates opportunities for innovators.
"The way people are religious is changing," says Frank Newport, Gallup's editor in chief. "And maybe what's happening up in [New England] is a good indication of what is happening or could happen elsewhere."
Now emerging in the land of Cotton Mather and Robert Frost are religious cultures marked by immigrant experiences and creative worship, with emphasis on good works and personal holiness. It's not entirely what stolid New Englanders are used to, but maybe that's its appeal.
* * *
On a December morning, the polished sounds of bongos and electric keyboards emanate from Congregación León de Judá, a 1,500 member church in an ethnically diverse Boston neighborhood. It's a mainline American Baptist Churches congregation, though maybe not one prior generations would recognize.
The 36,000-square-foot complex looks more suited for offices than offerings, but on this day, 500 pack the sanctuary for an upbeat, bilingual service. A high-stepping man leads a praise chorus. Laypeople take turns praying: one in Spanish, then another in English. Dozens approach the stage for prayer. Hands rise and eyelids fall. After an hour, some 75 English speakers representing 15 countries head downstairs to continue worship in their language.
Another 15 go to a window-filled room where a new Anglican Church in North America congregation, started by León de Judá, is gathering for the first time. Ministries here are growing so fast – 500 new members in the past five years – that a 40,000-square-foot building is rising next door to help house it all.
For new members like Ted Best, who emigrated from Barbados 30 years ago, and William Leslie from Dominica (both English-speaking countries), the church's Hispanic roots were no barrier. They like being part of a dynamic congregation that provides outlets for compassion and immigrants' hopes.
"We want to be part of a church that is growing," says Mr. Leslie, who does outreach work for León de Judá, from visiting hospitals to sharing information in subways. "We want to touch the community for Jesus, and this church has advanced that cause."
Much of the church growth in secular New England stems from immigrants and the cultures they create in pursuit of spiritual grounding. Researchers at the Emmanuel Gospel Center (EGC), a Boston-based Christian organization that studies urban ministries, call it a "quiet revival." It is often overlooked because the Religion Census tracks only denominations, yet nondenominational churches account for some of the fastest-filling pews, or folding chairs, as the case may more often be.
EGC data show that Boston has spawned more than 100 Hispanic evangelical churches in the past 40 years, up from just a handful in the 1970s. EGC's census also found 65 Haitian churches in greater Boston, including at least one with more than 500 members.
"A storefront church might not look that big, but they have 100 to 200 people coming each week," says Rudy Mitchell, a senior researcher at EGC. "A big old church might only have 50 people attending even though they have a big building."
Where growth is happening inside traditional denominations, such as at León de Judá, immigrant connections often play a central role. Half of the Southern Baptists ' 325 churches in New England are non-English speaking. They worship instead in Spanish, Portuguese, or Haitian Creole.
What's more, internationally minded denominations are benefitting from having built churches, schools, and hospitals abroad for decades. Seventh-day Adventists operate more than 7,800 schools around the world. Thus, Brazilians who immigrate to Massachusetts often plug into a local Seventh-day Adventist church led by an immigrant pastor who knows their homeland and speaks their native language, according to Edwin Hernandez of the Center for the Study of Latino Religion at Notre Dame University in South Bend, Ind.
Immigrant vitality is driving growth in other more secular regions as well. Steve Lewis, academic dean at Bangor Theological Seminary, spent most of his career in Oregon, the sixth least religious state.
"The growth in churches in areas that are generally in decline are coming from ethnic congregations," says Mr. Lewis. "In Portland, Ore., there are churches with Romanians, Ukrainians, Eastern Europeans, and thousands of people go to them. You have churches in decline in that region, but these [ethnic] churches are buying warehouses and remodeling them."
Many of the religious groups with international ties investing in steeples and schools in New England are reaping quick returns. Since relocating from Rhode Island to a long-vacant campus in Haverhill, Mass., in 2008, the Assemblies of God's Zion Bible College has doubled enrollment, from 200 to 400.
"People don't like the aura of past religions in many cases, where the church looks like it's a club," says Charles Crabtree, president of Zion, which will be renamed Northpoint Bible College on Jan. 1. "But when we go out, build churches, and are in the neighborhoods expressing the love of Christ, it's amazing how many people respond."
In Westbrook, Maine, the Seventh-day Adventists last year acquired a new regional headquarters – a 14,500-square-foot library. In Northfield, Mass., near the Vermont border, a 217-acre campus will be handed to a Christian institution in 2013 as a gift from Oklahoma's Green family, billionaire owners of a craft store chain, who bought and renovated the property in order to give it away.
Some churches that offer an alternative to prevailing regional values, in both New England and around the country, are attracting new disciples. Liberal Unitarian Universalists have seen some of their fastest growth in recent years in Oklahoma, Tennessee, and other conservative Southern states.
In New England, the converse is true. Churches that echo the prevailing culture's moral relativism and liberal sensibilities sometimes struggle to differentiate themselves. Yet when a doctrine-minded pastor like Joey Marshall unpacks the Bible, verse by verse, many people yearn for his unflinching message. To accommodate growing numbers, Mr. Marshall's Living Stone Community Church in Standish, Maine, moved from a traditional 50-seat structure to a former paintball facility.
"A lot of people were looking for a church that still preached the Gospel and were having trouble finding a good, solid, Bible-believing church," says Marshall, a Southern Baptist from Tennessee. Former Catholics make up about 40 percent of his flock, he says.
In terms of tactics, Southern Baptists have tapped missionary-minded activists ("catalysts") in the South to galvanize more resources and volunteers especially for "unchurched" New England. They've also hired a full-time staffer to evaluate acquisition opportunities when churches want to sell or donate their buildings.
Two years ago, the SBC's North American Mission Board (NAMB) put 20 percent of its resources into establishing new churches. Now it spends 45 percent on church planting. It's part of a larger effort to focus on urban areas.
"In the 1950s, we pulled out of the cities," says Aaron Coe, NAMB's vice president for mobilization. "But we've since realized the world is a very urban place, and if we're going to make a difference in the generations to come, then we're going to have to seriously engage the cities."
* * *
Tensions have flared up occasionally over some of the religious expansionism. This past March, when it looked like the free Northfield, Mass., campus might go to Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, a group of local residents launched a website to let others know about the evangelical institutions looking at the site.
"What makes [Liberty] a really bad fit is the matter of bigotry against certain groups, [namely] gays and lesbians," Northfield resident Nancy Champoux, a retired middle school teacher, said at the time. She also worried that new neighbors on the religious right might replace hundreds of trees with wide roads and clearings, as Liberty did in building its Lynchburg, Va., campus.
Up the road at the Congregational Church in West Dover, Vt., the Rev. Emily Heath bristles when others regard areas like hers as "the new mission field." "We are not the mission field," Ms. Heath wrote in a July open letter in The Huffington Post. "Don't come here telling us we are not really Christian, or spreading falsehoods about the state of our beloved churches, or calling our neighbors sinners. We don't like that."
Southern Baptist church planters, however, say they bring a spirit of compassionate service rather than confrontation. One popular way they try to introduce a church: Pay a local gas station to drop its prices by 25 cents per gallon for two hours on a Saturday. During the promotion, church members wash windshields and hand out religious information about the new church.
"People [getting gas] say, 'What in the world is going on?' " says Jim Wideman, executive director of the Baptist General Convention of New England. "So they'll have a little card that says, 'we're just trying to show the love of Jesus to you in a practical way.' "
Church activists, of course, ultimately want to impact more than gas prices. In secular areas such as the Northeast, they also strive to "influence the influencers," since the region shapes attitudes nationwide through such channels as education, policy, and media. The Southern Baptists' "Send North America" campaign says church planters "recognize the potential of harnessing the influence of the area" to help spread the Gospel.
While some might even hope the religious incursions in New England would foster a more GOP-friendly atmosphere, church leaders make no such promises. Many see Christians as increasingly willing to accept minority status in America.
"Most of those who believed in the '70s – the whole Moral Majority thing – that there was a chance that America really could become a Christian nation have given that up now," Mr. Wideman says. "They have said, 'We need to begin to think like Christians in the 1st century thought, when they were definitely a minority.' "
* * *
Other churches are trying to keep politics as far away from the pulpit as possible – and are thriving. Stephen Um is the Korean-born pastor of the Citylife Church in Boston, a 10-year-old Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) congregation that meets in a hotel and attracts 800 weekly attendees. He ministers to Boston's youthful and professional elite: 35 percent of his half-white, half-Asian congregation has at least one postgraduate degree.
But his ministry focuses on empowering individuals to bear witness, challenge atheist assumptions, and do good works – not change public policy for Christ.
"This is not a political movement," Mr. Um says. "We want to be the best citizens that we can be.... I tell them that the best way for you to have a witness as a Christian in the workplace is to pursue the common good, to work with integrity ... to love your neighbor."
Churches that have equated faith with political activism, in fact, are watching their ranks thin. Lewis, the Bangor Seminary dean, sees emphasis on politics as one reason some mainline denominations have seen their membership decline accelerate in the past 10 years.
"In the mainline denominations, liberalism is dead, but they just don't know it yet," says Lewis, an ordained Methodist elder. "Liberalism has moved so far toward the social consciousness [agenda] that it's lost its spiritual roots. What they need [in the mainlines] is a passionate spirituality."
For their part, Roman Catholics haven't complained about religious opportunists encroaching on what's been largely their turf since the late 19th century. One reason is that the Catholic Church will remain the region's largest religious player for many years to come, Mr. Johnson notes. Catholic commitment might even be growing significantly in pockets, he adds, but the signs are hard to notice since they're overshadowed by declining regional numbers.
To fill more pews, Catholics are focusing on bringing inactive members back into the fold. In January, the Archdiocese of Boston kicks off "Disciples in Mission," an effort to reinvigorate parish life by encouraging Catholics to attend mass more regularly, receive the sacrament of reconciliation, and inspire boys to explore the priesthood.
"If we're doing our job of inviting Catholics back to church, [and] if we're being welcoming, praying about it and giving witness," says the Rev. Paul Soper, director of the Office of Pastoral Planning for the Archdiocese, "then that's going to have an effect on the broad religious landscape, including specifically people who traditionally have been Catholic but now are seeking other ways of worshiping and living."
* * *
What's emerging, it seems, is a religious shift whose wider meaning is best measured not so much in terms of political or cultural transformation, but in how faith is practiced. Adherents are flocking to churches where the difference faith makes is concrete and visible. Connections fostered in faith communities are enabling them to live in keeping with their aspirations and nurture freedoms they've come to discover.
Take the 40 newcomers to the Auburn Seventh-day Adventist Church in Maine. Interviews with many of them revealed a common theme: Each was enjoying some type of new freedom and felt the church could help keep them on the right path.
For Phil and Pat Webber of Lisbon, freedom has involved leaving a Jehovah's Witness community that they say restricted them from talking with family members or socializing with certain friends. Ben Dugas of Auburn, who has a condition diagnosed as cerebral palsy, finds he sleeps better and enjoys more time with his wife, Wendy, since adopting the church's guidance on vegan eating and Sabbath-keeping.
Debbie Giroux, from the town of Poland, found freedom from love addiction and codependency through a 12-step group, she says, and knew she needed to worship the God who had liberated her. "I was filled with shame, toxic shame; then with the 12-step program, I just woke up one day and that was gone," says Ms. Giroux. "It chokes me up. That built my relationship with God. And through that process, this little voice in my head kept saying, 'you need to go to church.' "
At Congregación León de Judá, Kelvin Carroll has found a path for continuing enrichment that began in Alabama. He'd long worshiped in emotional black Baptist churches, he says, but discovered more dimensions to faith when he joined a biracial church in Dothan, Ala., led by two pastors, one black and one white.
Now a transplant to Quincy, Mass., where he works 14-hour days at Wal-Mart and Home Depot, Mr. Carroll expects he'll learn even more about the Bible and discipleship through an English ministry hosted by a Spanish-speaking congregation. "I'm here because I wanted to see the Spanish part of it," says Carroll. "It helps me in the ministry to know each culture and how they serve God."
Even in some churches experiencing fewer people in the pews, activity in the name of God is thriving in other ways. The Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire saw average attendance drop 20 percent from 2000 to 2010.
"The churches and the pews have been emptying, but they're starting to come back," says the Right Rev. Robert Hirschfeld, who will become Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire in January. "Maybe not on Sunday morning, but I see people coming together for prayer groups, for Bible study, for partnering together to serve those who are most at risk in our society. When you look at those metrics, the church is very alive."
It is alive on Sunday mornings and afternoons, too, in buildings that don't look like churches. No steeple or stained glass adorns León de Judá, but that doesn't keep the people from rejoicing. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is," sings the hand-waving congregation as a projector displays lyrics on a wall, "there is freedom."
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 3 years ago

Do you know if this is an American phenomena? I've read that it is. One obvious item comes to my mind. With the sciences and more wide-spread education, secularism is now the new normal. The sort of people drawn to Pentecostal and other fundie new religions are not normal within their culture. I suspect the large scale movement is from mainstream religions, including Catholicism, to secularism, not to these fringe religions.
I lived in Manhattan most of my life but even here in a more rural area, people find it hard to sustain divisions. Once upon a time in England, you had to marry within your denomination. It would be utterly impossible to enforce it today. We share a common secularism. Many of my friends are not even Christian. Knowing individuals breaks down prejudice. Knowing that gay people exist and seeing actual gay people embracing in church and living normal lifes breaks dwon barriers. My Roman Catholic friends criticize the Pope and other leaders.
We chooose what to believe more today. As an Anglican, am I to condemn Lutherans or Methodists?
What these growing religions have in common is obvious. Dogmatic belief. It does not bode well for this country.
Did anyone ever wonder why a loving God would destroy worldly people, including small children and puppy dogs? Were our neighbors so evil they were beyond saving?
 
Bungi Bill
Bungi Bill 3 years ago

They say "any port in a storm" - but that would have to be a hurricane!
Bill.
 
cobaltcupcake
cobaltcupcake 3 years ago

I'm really surprised to read that. I lived most of my life in New England, but then I moved to North Carolina in the Bible Belt. I was so surprised to find that people actually talked about their church - never heard that kind of talk in NE. Churches back home were usually small (except the Catholic churches), and often in disrepair. In NC churches are enormous and very active in community outreach, totally unlike anything I ever saw in New England.
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

I am surprised about the Penticostal growth recently. I don't get it.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

The Pentacostal movement ( as it is not a church per say) attracts a lot of people that were previously not very religious and those that know little about the bible as a historical document. In that way they are like the JW's they attract people that really just don't know or want to know the truth about the bible. Everything is about FAITH and believing to create a sort of magic. It's like Santa, we just believe, we don't ask what he does the rest of the year or how he feeds Reindeer with no grass or hay at the N. Pole.
Unlike the JW's they are a lot of fun.... They would be the hot blooded latino or italian cousins of the JW's. Lot's of parties, hugs, emotion, emotional support, talk of mysterious and awesome powers to heal and bring good fortune, a general lack of regard for status in the world and more of a focus on value of the individual as an individual.
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

Thanks cage fighter.
I have had Pentacostal neighbors. Very friendly.
In California I have seen some incredible growth at some mega-churches who perform "healings", and have "Christian Rock" music. The Web-sites say they are Pentacostal. They seem more "New age" to me than the traditional "Four Square" churches I grew up around.
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

Also interesting is the full circle on Adventists. Jws broke off in the 1800s and some seem to now be switching back. Does anyone personally know of Ex-Jws joining Adventists groups?
They seem to br growing in my area and are pro-education.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 3 years ago

Since Jehovah's Witnesses is an off-shoot, I suspect that people do don't like the overreaching of the JWs may find comfort in the Adventists, since much is in common.
I attended a Pentecostal service with high school friends. We all lived in the same neighborhood and knew each from kindergarten. All was calm and boring. I saw the pastor stir up tension. He started out low and built up to a feverish pitch. One person could not stand the anxiety and started crying very hard. Within ten minutes, I was the only one not throwing my head against the floor and screeching how bad I was. Since I was not in any frenzy, a bit terrified, I noticed that when so many minutes passed by, the pastor went around and touched everyone to bring them out of the trance.
The power he had was horrific. Girls who were prissy and oh so nice were pulling out their hair in chunks. I failed to see anything Jesus like in the display. Imagine the cathartis, however. The Witnesses can't remotely compete with the purging of emotions.
This is interesting combined with the Pew Survey that about 60% of Witnesses leave the WTBTS.
 
LV101
LV101 3 years ago

SDA's definitely believe in higher education and always have. They operate a well-known hospital in Southern California, Loma Linda. It's an area flooded with adventists and I have friends who live in the city and think highly of the religion and the hospital. It's also known as one of the world's "blue zones" where longevity is the 2nd highest in the world. They're diet is healthy according to the stats.
It's a respected religion in comparison to witnesses. That wouldn't take much.
LV
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

I have run into some 7th day offshoot groups in the hills of Northern California. Almost like "Communes"...touch of the Davis Koresh(Waco) thing. They believe in "fleeing into the mountains" during the end times.
They also run some drug re-hab centers here and in the Wine Country. A big one in St Helena. Lots of Seventh Day Adventist doctors, and Nurses.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 3 years ago

It proves what I assert. WT culture and overreaching/control is not necessarily tied to the doctrines they espouse. Mormons have BYU and far weirder doctrine. SDA has Loma Linda. It is not doctrine per se that makes the Witnesses a cult.
Look at how many professional Mormons there are, including presidential candidates. There is something unique about the Witnesses. What we perceive as insane faith does not stop the Mormons from engaging in the world.
 
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 2 years ago

I just ran into an old ex JW who was in my hall. She has converted to Seventh Day Adventist. Is this common?
 

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Mormonism - a few points
by Amazing 14 years ago 26 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago


Mormonism is an enigma. They extol higher education, then turn right around and insult education by their FARMs archeology site sponsored by BYU. Just how this religion ever got by as far as they did is beyond me. Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham was thoroughly discredited by experts in Egyptian writing and history ... it was published in a Dec 1912 full page article in the NY Times ... I have a full copy.
Study Mormonism: I have studied a measure of this religion on and off for 25 years. Then, after leaving the JWs, I was able to engage Mormon Missionaries more directly and attend their church for a time. I did not do so with the idea of joining ... the JWs burned that out of me ... but I wanted to know about them more, out of curiosity. So ... Some years ago, I had Mormon Missionaries visit me for 6 months, then again for another 6 months after I moved back to Oregon. (they are supposed to keep the study program to 6 weeks). Ha ha ... not with me ... though much of this is their problem because they change out missionaries every two to three weeks ... so that I often had to start over with the next set of missionaries.
The Book of Mormon (BOM): I argued with the Mormons that the foundation of their religion is based on the BOM, and we need to go through it ... I practically had to hog-tie them, because contrary to popular opinion, Mormons do not want to study the BOM, but they prefer their little 6 lesson plan and to prove that they can use the Bible. Still, I finally got these people into the BOM ... and with a little careful effort, you can unravel the lunacy, inconsistency, and fraud of the BOM ... it shoots itself in the foot ... the BOM is a very poor effort at fiction ... I would not be surprised if some budding writer wrote it, and when he tried to get it published, the publishing companies turned him down so much, they he gave up and tossed it in the trash ... then Joey Smith was rummaging around and found it. This might have been the case. Supposedly there was a belief at one time that Spalding was the author, and Smith stole the manuscript, but this has never been proven. Average Mormons have very little comprehension as to what the BOM really says.
Mormon Secret Ceremonies: The other night, when our ex-Mormon friends supplied the link to a live recording of a Mormon Endowment Ceremony, where young Mormon men and women are anointed into Priest and Priestess, I was able to listen to much of it ... it sounds like a scene from an Indiana Jones Temple of Doom animal sacrifice movie ... listening to these guys chant adulation to Jehovah's name sent chills up my apostate spine.  ... I would love to read what Farkel has to say about the ceremony! I know some of the words he would use. LOL It appears that Joey Smith and Chucky Russell both had love of Egyptology in common ... and it is almost as if these two religions were spawned by an underlying conspiracy ... but, I hate claims of conspiracy, so I guess it is just a coincidence.
Tithing and love of Money: Mormons are supposed to support at least two different funds, each costing them 10% of their income (although several Mormon Missionaries have touted 3 funds, each costing 10% to a Mormon ... so, after the Feds and State takes their 50%, and the Mormon Church takes its 20% to 30%, a Mormon is left with about 20% to live on ... LOL ... Just to get their "Temple Recommend" you must prove to your Bishop via pay stubs and bank statements that you have given a basic 10% ... so that one's full spiritual participation is based on filthy lucre. I confronted the Mormon Missionaries with this ... and they just acted embarassed.
Watchtower & Mormon Connection: What surprised me was a few years ago, maybe about 7 to 9 years, the WTS came out with an article in the Watchtower magazine praising Joseph Smith, after all the years the Watchtower badmouthed the Mormon beliefs, they started sounding really chummy ... and another interesting piece of information: In Richland, Washington, the Mormon church donated land to build the new Kingdom Hall there ... that took place somewhere in the early 1990s ... the land was part of the Mormon Church property ... so the Kingdom Hall sits right next to the Mormon Church ... two peas in a pod ... I will not be surprised if one day these two religions merge.
Interesting Evidence: Some years ago, I obtained a research paper written by a JW. He studied many Mormon beliefs, documented the source references, and then took his work to a Mormon Stake Patriarch, who not only verified the material but added two more pages to the paper. The names and addresses of these people are stated for the record ... in that work, the Mormon beliefs are exposed as utterly sickening ... this is where the sources show that Brigham Young believed that Adam was God, the "only God with whoim they have to do." ... other material I have quote Joey Smith as saying that he is greater than Jesus Christ ... so, if anyone wants, I will quote or copy and scan these and post them.
 
Sentinel
Sentinel 14 years ago


Amazing,
Thanks for your post. Aside from working with a lady who is Mormon, I really know very little. I had been wanting to get the book of Mormon just to research, and be somewhat knowledgeable about them for discussion purposes. Years ago, they came to our home when I was still in High School, and we had some interesting conversations.
We saw an ad on TV last night for a free copy of their book, so I called to get one sent to me. Then they wanted to arrange for a "visit", which I promptly turned down. The young lady who spoke to me had born into the Mormon beliefs, and she was Mormon borg, through and through. Very nice though, and I think I did get some major points across to her.
I suggested to her that she really needs to find her "own truth". That she should never take anything for granted. And to question everything and anything, because that is the only way she will figure life out for herself. (It seemed to please her that I was a former JW  The Mormons are growing in our area here, as well as JW's, who have building plans submitted for two new structures.
Sentinel
 
Salud
Salud 14 years ago


Amazing,
In the age of mega-mergers, airlines, banks etc, it would not surprise me to see a JW/LDS merger. But who would be president??
Anyway good points made esp. w/ the tithing. I knew Mormons who were members in GOOD standing not because they were regulars at their church but because they were regular with their tithings and they were of sizable amounts.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 14 years ago


Amazing,
I am interested in your source and quote of what Joe Smith had to say about his greatness. Please post it. Thanks.
 
Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago

Hi Kenneson: Okay, I'll dig in my Mormon box later today and see what I drag up ... Joey Smith and Brigham Young said some really cool stuff in the JOD ... you would be amazed.
 
mr party
mr party 14 years ago

when talking to mormons, i would open to the last page, of the book of mormon, find where it says jehovah, to show them how much we had in common, thay were surprised most of the time.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago


I know the poster QUANTUM got a lot of people worked up with his in-your-face postings on Mormanism. I said it before, he opened himself up with the intelligent responses, however I still hate people bashing other peoples religions. I came on this board to learn why my JW friend is the they are...now I know. But never have I bashed them for their religious beliefs - I felt that I had no right to speak, never being a JW - I left that for those of you who left the religion and who had first hand experience.
Amazing: When I first came on this board, I read with 'amazement' (no pun intended) your serialized account of how you joined the JW's, the years you spent in it and the monumental task it took to finally rid yourself. I loved your writing and put your name on my short list of those whose posts I looked forward to reading.... I'm sorry to say this wasn't one of them.
I've looked into the LDS religion, and I must say it isn't the one that is so abundantly shrouded in the evil darkness as portrayed on this board. What I've read here, and what I've experienced is like night and day. It makes me wonder if a lot of the comments come from a deeply biased mindset of the hurt experienced as former JW members.
Your statement regarding Tithing is totally inacurate, and therefore brings into question the validity of all your assertions. This is one topic that I DO know about and double checked as to the facts. First of all, there are not 3 tithing categories, only one. Ten percent on your "increase". Some Mormans understand that to mean 10% on your gross, others on the net income. There is NO set policy, and from what I understand, even Mormans debate that amongs themselves.
Secondly, once a month, on a Sunday, Mormans fast for a couple of meals, and the money that is suppose to have been saved, goes into what is called a Fast Offering. There is no set amount, and certainly NOT 10%. I supposed if you saved two Taco Bell meals your offering would be about $4.00. That money goes into their Welfare System...which by the way, Mormans in financial trouble are suppose to go to their Church first, before the government. Last night, one of the morman bashers said that the church goes to their house once a month, and some elderly lady owed them $90,000. How guillible is anyone on this board to believe that sh*t!
Lastly, you mentioned a 3rd 10% that was owed. I've been told that up until a few years ago, some people in their congregations paid what was called a budget collection, for the local upkeep of their church facilities- that was discontinued. Now the MAJOR point I want to make in correcting this misinformation, is that as a Morman if you pay or don't pay into any of those funds, no one is going after you, or looking down at you as "spiritually weak" or "bad association" or not "mature". You can't be D/A'd, D/F'd or even discovered, because it isn't common knowledge among the congregation what you do or don't pay...they don't pass the plate around.
One last point, you mentioned something in the first paragraph or so, that you took their study lessons from their missonaries with no intention of ever joining..in fact, it sounds like you did it to 'nail' them on their 'different theology' ok, whatever...but in doing so, with that mindset, could anything they ever said or did would have been correct? It sounds like the upstopable force/immoveable object conundum...and what a waste of time.
 
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ 14 years ago

Man, those people are a bunch of nuts. I can't even begin to describe what a laugh dad, the angels, and I get out of what they put out. Its amazing what some of you people will believe.
 
refiners fire
refiners fire 14 years ago


Amazing.
The situation with the mormon missionaries is very interesting.
I dont know that it is planned to work out as it does, but the effect of their method is to create psychic confusion.
Yes, they rotate around on you in their visits like crazy, so you are constantly dealing with new people. They spring surprises on you like inviting you to study with them somewhere and you roll up and there are 12 people there unexpectedly.They also jump you around. One get together with the missionaries they had me go to two seperate houses both of which had messages directing me to go else where for the meeting. it was like an Easter egg hunt.The effect of this is to create disorientation in the mind of the recruitee.
They also RUSHED me into baptism within a week of meeting me for the first time. Baptism is only a first step in a whole tier of "obedience" practises on the stairway to heavenly glory.The story of how I got baptized into the MoMos is a tale in itself. They applied intense psychological pressure onto me to commit to baptism. This was done in front of a group of eager smiling concerned Momos, all of whom "loved" me very dearly.
Harrassing phone calls, phone calls at 11pm. It all happened in Mormon recruitment technique.
Pretty interesting stuff.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago

J.C. ... I have real strong doubts that you are who you say you are...but if you are for real, don't expect a lot of respect from some here. Several posters here deny that you're devine and think that the religion that follows your teachings and the Bible's is as bogus as the book of Morman.
 
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ 14 years ago

You can believe in me if you wish. I can tell that most people are good so that's all that's really needed. As for the bible, I'll be the first to admit its a load of crap. Dad wrote one night when we had been drinking heavily. We're amazed that so many people actually believe everything in it!
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 14 years ago


I must agree with Double Edge that I really hate people who bash other people's religions. If you want to bash your own, or the one you left, feel free. But to bash the religions of others just smacks of you having a "deeply biased mindset" (towards any and all religion).
I know many of you have been hurt by religion in the past, but to assume that because of your experience all religions must necessarily be equally destructive is really absurd. If I said I hate all (pick any minority) because I saw a drunk one once and they're everyone knows they're all like that, you'd jump all over me for such illogical thinking. Yet you do the same to other religions and people tend to just lap it up and beg for more.
Double Edge is right, too, that to say you've looking into a religion for x number of years means nothing if all you were trying to do was to "nail them on their different theology". No wonder God judges on the heart and not on externals. You can carry all the church membership cards you feel like toting around, but none of them mean zilch if all they are is evidence you are on somebody's list. What counts is what is in your heart, your mind, your soul, and how those things translate into action towards your fellow man (woman, child, animal, earth, etc.).
Amazing -- Interesting name. But not an amazing posting. BOM is not fiction. It is not "easily unraveled". And yes, the average Mormon has excellent comprehension as to what it has to say.
As for the recording of our temple ceremonies, we do not chant. There are no chants. We do not chant to Jehovah's name in the temple. The recording was false.
Double Edge covered your mistakes with the tithing doctrine. It is 10%. Period. And it is between you and the Bishop. Nobody else is involved. And nobody is forced to pay. And there is no "proving" with pay stubs. I've never yet shown a bishop a pay stub or a tax receipt. Many full-fledged members are not paying full or even part tithing for reasons I won't bother to list here.
My sister sent me a WT that supposedly was more positive towards Mormonism. She thought I'd be impressed at how unbiased it was. Took me a long time to respond to her. When I did, I was kinder than the article deserved. Though it started out pleasantly enough, it soon degenerated into the typical mudslinging expected from that publication whenever it "covers" anything about Mormonism. It was NOT a positive article.
Emperor Class -- you said when talking to mormons you would open to the last page of the BOM where it says Jehovah, and they were surprised most of the time. What would they supposedly be surprised about? Do you think we don't use the name of Jehovah? We do. Do we use it as JWs do? No.
As to the poster who said he was "rushed" into baptism in a week after a "disorienting" whirlwind of "Easter egg hunt" surprise meeting changes and intense psychological pressure...Sorry, but that's utter garbage. They don't have any desire to trick anyone into baptism, nor do they baptize anyone who doesn't pass several interviews with several different people indicating full understanding and willing intention to actually become a member. And how did you manage to get six lessons in one week? Plus the interviews? My missionary sons have refused to baptize people many times, because the people were not ready, or hadn't cleared up some matter, or the missionaries didn't feel the timing was right.
Harassing phone calls? No. Calls at 11 pm -- not from the missionaries. They are in bed before then. Mission rules. Church-wide. Obviously, you are one of those with an agenda that doesn't include attention to accuracy. I hope you are happier in whatever religion you went to next.
I really don't mind honest criticism, or people stating what they themselves experienced and so believe to be the truth for everyone involved in the religion. Not every religion is going to meet everyone's needs. That's why there are so many to choose from. Find the one you like, and leave the others alone. If you really need to rip one apart, at least be sure it is one you were a member of long enough to actually have the lowdown on that church. Is this really too much to expect?
Susan
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago

Well said Susan, well said!. You sound like the Mormans I know - intelligent, articulate, very normal and "cool"....not the half-crazed, in-your-face recent poster who went by the name QUANTUM.
 
Matt_exmo
Matt_exmo 14 years ago


Susan, he did not -being fair- mention 11pm calls from Missionaries. Have you never had 11pm phone calls from fellow Mormons? Then count yourself lucky. You have not seen peopled rushed into baptism within a very short period of time? Again, count yourself lucky. I think it depends -in part- on the Mission President. Some of them are sensible, others gungho, "get them to commit to baptism as soon as you can and baptise 'e m by the dozen!" types.
BTW, I'd have to argue with you. I believe that the BOM is nothing but a work of fiction.
Edited by - Matt_exmo on 18 July 2002 21:26:10
 
joenobody
joenobody 14 years ago

I'd like to challenge your statements Susan - saying the BOM is not "easily unravelled" as Amazing says. Have you looked into the history behind the BOM? Do you know about it's connections to transcribed mistakes from early KJV versions of the Bible? Ask a Mormon just which of the many versions of Doctrines and Covenants is the correct one. Also, get back to me on the Book of Abraham... err Egyptian Book of the Dead! Finally, just where are those gold plates? Seems like an awful thing to have lost. Please tell me about the extent of your research.
 
zev
zev 14 years ago


you mean this article????

---

*** g95 11/8 17-18 A Young Man's Search for Answers *** A Young Mans Search for Answers
THE morning sun shone brightly, filtering down through the trees to a boy kneeling in fervent prayer. Fourteen-year-old Joseph was confused by the religious tumult of his time. Traditional churches were racked with division. New sects were everywhere. Which group should he join? On bended knee he asked: Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
Thus Joseph Smith described his early spiritual crisis. Little wonder he was confused. This was rural northeastern America in the early 19th century, a region ablaze with religious fervor. Hope was sorely needed. Many farmers struggled with a life as hard as the rocky soil they plowed. Yearning for something better, they were tantalized by tales of buried Indian treasure. So they combed the hills, armed with magic seer stones, incantations, and divining rods. Local legends told of a great Indian civilization that perished in a terrible battle somewhere in New York State.
Popular preachers of the day fanned the fires of speculation, saying that the American Indians were descended from the lost ten tribes of Israel. In 1823, for example, Ethan Smith wrote the book View of the Hebrews; or the Tribes of Israel in America.
Golden Plates and a Prophet
Raised in this fertile climate of folklore and religious ardor was young Joseph Smith. His family too was caught up in the excitement. Josephs mother wrote of their experiencing healings, miracles, and visions. But when she and some of the children joined a church, Joseph refused to follow. Later, in his life story, he wrote of his prayer for help and the answer he received.
Joseph told of a vision in which God forbade him to join any of the sects because they were all in error. Then, one autumn day in 1823, the 17-year-old Smith told his family that an angel named Moroni had shown him a set of ancient golden plates. Four years later he claimed he was given the plates and the exclusive divine power to translate them, which required using a special stone called a seer stone and a pair of magic silver spectaclestwo smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass. It meant instant death for others to see the plates at that time, Smith warned.
Smith, who could read but not write well, dictated the translation of the plates to several scribes. Sitting behind a curtain, he related a story said to be compiled by a Hebrew man named Mormon. The plates were inscribed in reformed Egyptian writing, Smith explained, which was more compact than Hebrew. Mormon and his son Moroni were described as being among the last survivors of a people called the Nephite nation, fair-skinned descendants of Hebrews said to have migrated to America about 600 B.C.E. to escape Jerusalems destruction.
The account relates that Jesus had appeared to this nation in America after his death and resurrection and had chosen 12 Nephite apostles. The Lamanites, a people also of Hebrew descent, were rebellious and warlike and so were cursed by God with dark skin. Mormons account principally chronicled the ongoing battles between these two nations. The Nephites grew wicked and eventually were annihilated by the Lamanites, who were ancestors of the American Indians.
According to Smith, Mormons son, now the spirit Moroni, had given him the record on golden plates and the commission leading to the restoration of Christs church. Smith soon had a following. A prosperous believer financed the publishing of Smiths manuscript called The Book of Mormon. It appeared in print in the spring of 1830. Two weeks later, Joseph Smith announced his official title: Seer, a Translator, a Prophet, an Apostle of Jesus Christ. On April 6, 1830, the Mormon Church, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was born.
Smith had a commanding presence that won the devotion of many converts. But his unconventional religion also made enemies. The fledgling church was hounded; its members fled from New York to Ohio and then to Missouri in search of its New Jerusalem. As prophet, Smith uttered revelation after revelation, pronouncing Gods will on matters ranging from financial donations to a divine mandate to take multiple wives. This latter revelation particularly spawned much persecution. Faced with suspicion and antagonism at every turn, the Mormons took up arms to defend themselves.
The intrigue and turmoil that marked the early years of Joseph Smiths life never abated. Frontier towns, inundated with influxes of Smiths followers, put up stiff resistance. They had use neither for another sacred book nor for a self-proclaimed prophet. Then, in 1839, to the dismay of the local populace, the Mormons established a thriving colony, with its own mills, factory, university, and militia, in Nauvoo, Illinois. When hostilities erupted, Smith was arrested and jailed in Carthage, Illinois. There, on June 27, 1844, a mob raided the jail and shot and killed him.
The Church Survives Its Prophet
The story by no means ends with Joseph Smiths death. Brigham Young, president of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, quickly assumed command and led many believers on a perilous journey to the Great Salt Lake valley in Utah, where the Mormon headquarters are to this day.
The church founded by Joseph Smith continues to attract converts, with, according to LDS sources, some nine million members worldwide. It has spread far beyond its cradle in New York State to places as diverse as Italy, the Philippines, Uruguay, and Zaire. Despite continued antagonism, the remarkable Mormon Church has prospered. Is it, indeed, the restoration of true Christianity for which men of faith have waited?
[Footnotes]
Historians later dubbed this area in western New York State the burned-over district because of the waves of short-lived religious revivals that swept the region during the early 1800s.
Originally named The Church of Christ, on April 26, 1838, it became The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or LDS. Though LDS is the designation preferred by members, the name Mormon (derived from The Book of Mormon) is also used in this series of articles, since it is the more familiar term to many readers.
There are various groups that have broken away from the LDS, who also call themselves Mormons. Principal among them is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, with headquarters in Independence, Missouri.
[Picture Credit Line on page 17]
Photo: Courtesy Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints/Dictionary of American Portraits/Dover

 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago


I believe that the BOM is nothing but a work of fiction.
Ok, maybe, but then again numerous people on this board agree the the Bible too is a work of fiction, so I guess it's in good company.
Finally, just where are those gold plates?
Could they be in the same place as the original scrolls from the Books of the Bible?
Edited by - Double Edge on 19 July 2002 18:6:34
 
julien
julien 14 years ago


SusanHere: Amazing wrote that pay stubs (or equivalent) were required to get "Temple Recommend". In effect you must prove you tithed 10% before getting this status or whatever it is. Are you saying that is not the case?
Also: SusanHere or Double Edge please explain why the BOM has the transcription mistakes from the KJV in it.
Also: I once heard that one of the BOM chapters was stolen, and Smith was unable to reproduce it, so he instead replaced it with a paraphase type thing. Is this true?
 
Crazy151drinker
Crazy151drinker 14 years ago


Double Edge + Susan
My best friend is Mormon. He and his Cousin bash other religions NON STOP!! Catholics this, Islam that, We are the only right ones.. blah blah blah
Talk about pressure! All they do is pressure confused people into joining. QUANTEM is not unique.
The issue of Mormon questionable/fake origins goes way beyond the plates that no one has ever seen. There is not one thread of Archeological proof that any kindom/people/city in the book fo Mormon ever existed. You can go to Isreal and see the cities and places that were mentioned in the Bible. Nothing that is mentioned in the book of Mormon has ever been found!! Why arnt the Mormons looking for these great cities???? The American Indians have never heard of these grand kingdoms or people and they have been here for thousands of years!
Even if you do not believe in Jesus as a mesiah, you can still go to his birthplace. The Pharohs, and Egypt, and Jerusilum, the red sea, the sea of galileah, etc. etc.. all are talked about in the bible and all have proven to exist and many still exist today! Where is Aroms kingdom in North America?? Why are there no people, no buildings, nothing????
The Mormon religion has more holes than swiss cheese :smile:
Lets not even get into how we were all angels, how we can be gods and create our own worlds.....
I find it funny that they use the same example as the JWs about the cross "would you wear a gun on your neck if your father was murded....blah blah blah"
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago


Also: SusanHere or Double Edge please explain why the BOM has the transcription mistakes from the KJV in it.
Got me, but I'll ask around...I assume KJV is King James.
 

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Mormonism - a few points
by Amazing 14 years ago 26 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago

Crazy: If your best friend is Morman, why don't you ask them the archeological questions? I'm sure they've been asked before...let us know what he/she says, because I'm interested in the answer. But you do bring up something I remember studying when I was a teenager. There was no proof that there ever existed the city of Jericho. Then about 10 or 15 years ago they found it - a site that they believe to be it. Also, I was watching the a cable show a few weeks ago (History Channel or Discovery) and up until very recently, there was no evidence that Joseph, the Pharoahs Overseer ever existed in Egypt. In fact, there was no proof that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt as slaves. This from a nation that kept fairly accurate records. What's that all about. But I am going to look on the internet for the other stuff you brought up
 
Crazy151drinker
Crazy151drinker 14 years ago


Double:
They gave me either : God destroyed them all or read the book of Mormon and you will understand. And this is from a Mormon who missioned for 2 years! QUANTEM posted that there was evidence that the Mayans were the great kingdom mentioned. Yeah right! Im not saying that 100% of everything in the bible is correct. Hey, were talking a couple of thousand years of history here! But there are MANY things in it that A: have proved to have happened B: Still exist!
Nothing in the Book of Mormon exists! Its Bull!
Also look into the Animals in the Book of Mormon. Somewhere it mentions animals that the Europeans brought over in the 1500's!
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago


Mormans believe that Jesus visited the "new world" after his resurrection, or so their Book of Morman claims, to which numerous posters have said there is no 'shred' of any evidence as to it being real. I don't know if it's real or not, but I just spent the last hour on the internet researching "Aztecs belief in Christ"...several references came up, including one from the El Paso City College:
http://www.epcc.edu/ftp/Homes/monicaw/borderlands/17_aztec_beliefs.htm
Some interesting highlights:
"Gugumatz, Kukulcan, Viracocha, Votan, Quetzalcoatl - all are names for one god common to Mesoamerican peoples before the arrival of Columbus and other Europeans. The Toltecs, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs and other tribes worshipped many gods they believed directed various aspects of their lives, but archaeologists and historians have concluded that the figure called by these different names is probably one and the same.
According to legend, Quetzalcoatl, as he was known in Mexico, taught the natives their religion, art and science. Mesoamerican reverence for this god helped prepare the way for Hernn Corts and other European explorers to conquer the New World.
Quetzalcoatl, like some gods in other mythologies, was part human and part god. Some believe Quetzalcoatl's father was the god Mixcoatl, known as Sky Father of Cloud Serpent. Others see his father as a sun god. The Aztecs believed that his mother, a virgin named Chimalma, became pregnant by swallowing an emerald and them giving birth in the year 1-Reed. Being part human and part god made Quetzalcoatl grow to be very wise and cultured.
Legends say that Quetzalcoatl was tall and light-skinned, with blonde hair and a beard, in contrast to the natives who were short, dark skinned and dark haired. He is said to have worn a long, flowing robe. Quetzalcoatl was special because he was a god of creation. The Incas believed that he made the sun, moon, stars, and planets. The Mayans believed that with Tepeu, another god, he helped create the earth, mountains, streams and all animals. But his fines creation was man because other forms of life could not think about and worship their creator. ....
The Mesoamericans believed that Quetzalcoatl lived on earth with the people who worshiped him, teaching religion, moral, art and science. He brought good laws and sound doctrine, as well as prosperity to the people. One Aztec poem says, "Truly with him it began, truly from him it flowed out, from Quetzalcoatl all art and knowledge."
On earth, Quetzalcoatl was regarded as a saintly and good man, who taught the natives to avoid bad habits and sin. He introduced baptism to the Mesoamericans as a form of penance. Ixtlilxochitl, an Aztec poet, says that Quetzalcoatl reverenced the cross and taught that through fasting, humans could overcome their passions and dishonesty.
Quetzalcoatl bought beauty to the land and taught through art that beauty could be applied to all surroundings. Mexican scholar Angel Garibay says that all types of beautiful colored singing birds come to the land at the time of Quetzalcoatl's life on earth. He helped build new cities with beautiful houses of silver, green stones, white and colored shell, turquoise, and exquisite feathers.
As the god of sciences, Quetzalcoatl taught the Aztecs astronomy and gave them their calendar. He taught the natives how to work with metals and also gave them their writing. Thus the people prospered, never lacking for anything including gold, which was so available that it was worthless. Crops were huge and the harvests always prosperous. The people were happy.
Legends do not agree on why Quetzalcoatl left his people and the land, taking all prosperity with him. Poet Ixtlilxochitl wrote that he left because the people paid very little attention to his teachings.
He traveled to the east and told the people that he would return in the future. But before he did, the natives would suffer and would be persecuted. At the eastern coast, Quetzalcoatl sailed away on a raft of serpents and the people looked forward to his return.
It is no wonder, then, that the Indians were not surprised when Hernn Corts arrived in Mexico. When he entered the country in 1519, the Aztecs were living in a "ce catl" or 1-reed year, a potential time for their god Quetzalcoatl to return. Like him, Corts landed ashore on a raft o boat. And Corts was tall, bearded and light-skinned. With him were servants carrying crosses (priests).
Scholars say Corts began to pose as Quetzalcoatl when he learned about the god. The Spanish possessed powerful weapons, the like of which the Aztecs had never seen, helping the Europeans to appear omnipotent. Many similarities between references to Jesus and Christianity and the Mesoamerican Quetzalcoatl also existed.
The native belief in Quetzalcoatl became a thorn in the side of the Spanish priests as they attempted to spread their own beliefs among these civilizations. The Spanish admit to finding beautiful books but burned them because "The Devil has got here ahead of us and has shown false Christianity," as Diego de Landa, Bishop of the Yucatn wrote. Vernon W. Mattson in his work "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Important Discoveries" says, "In one place alone, they burned 100,000 Mayan books."
Quetzalcoatl has been called by some "the most influential person of the Americans." Stone engravings referring to him have been dated back to 300 BC, and legends date back over 2,000 years. Today, all Mesoamerican school children study about him and legends about him inspire scholars and archeologists to keep studying these ancient cultures."-end of quote-
-----------
Proof - no, but the similarities are incredible, and I just got this from the Yahoo search engine. One last thing...I found the reference to the gold was so abundant that it was worthless an interesting fact, considering that the original manuscripts were supposedly written on sheets of gold.
I wonder what Quantum would of thought of this.....nawwwww, never mind, who needs all that crazyness and grief.








Edited by - Double Edge on 19 July 2002 21:4:30
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago


Crazy:
Also look into the Animals in the Book of Mormon. Somewhere it mentions animals that the Europeans brought over in the 1500's!
I assume that you mean Cortez and horses, correct?
 
Crazy151drinker
Crazy151drinker 14 years ago


I think somewhere in the Book of Mormon it talks about cows and horses- animals which didnt come over until the europeans arrived.
This weekend I got into it big time with my buddy and his missionary cousin. They preached to me for over 2 hours about the 'Truth'. Yadda Yadda Yadda. Finally I told him that I would listen to his points when they found the plates. HE GOT PISSED and claimed I was insulting his religious beliefs. I told him that A: He just preached to me for 2 hours. B: He slams christians and the cross all the time. How is he going to preach to me and then when I question his beliefs he gets pissed??? EXCUSE ME if I dont believe everything people tell me! HELLO! I think for myself!
His response to the plates was : "There were 21 people who signed sworn affidavids saying that they had seen the plates!" Wow, 21 people. I bet I could walk around town and find at least 21 people who thought they were Jesus! LOL.
And as far as the AZTECS, they practised HUMAN SACRAFICE! If Christ was there GOD, I dont think he would teach that!!!!!!
 
Crazy151drinker
Crazy151drinker 14 years ago

Oh and to top it all off, they were both drinking and smoking POT while they where lecturing me! Something that both would get DF'd for!!!!! PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!! YOUR RELIGION IS SO 'TRUE' AND YET HERE BOTH OF YOU ARE VIOLATING IT!!!!!
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 14 years ago


Oh and to top it all off, they were both drinking and smoking POT while they where lecturing me!
They don't seem like the "typical" Mormans to ask questions of ...so why invest 2-hours of your time with someone who apparantly doesn't live their religion.....it doesn't make sense.
And as far as the AZTECS, they practised HUMAN SACRAFICE! If Christ was there GOD, I dont think he would teach that!!!!!!
That's apples and oranges. The point is, I found from a non-biased source on the internet that the Aztecs had a belief that went back 2000 years in a 'god' who's similarities to Christ are striking. By the time the Spaniards had arrived, of course the 'legend' had changed somewhat and obviously they weren't practicing what that god taught.
This is the quote that got me:
The native belief in Quetzalcoatl became a thorn in the side of the Spanish priests as they attempted to spread their own beliefs among these civilizations. The Spanish admit to finding beautiful books but burned them because "The Devil has got here ahead of us and has shown false Christianity," as Diego de Landa, Bishop of the Yucatn wrote. Vernon W. Mattson in his work "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Important Discoveries" says, "In one place alone, they burned 100,000 Mayan books
Of course, your statement below got me curious again...I'm going to look on the internet about cows and horses before Columbus.
I think somewhere in the Book of Mormon it talks about cows and horses- animals which didnt come over until the europeans arrived.



 

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Topic Summary
mormonism is an enigma.
they extol higher education, then turn right around and insult education by their farms archeology site sponsored by byu.
just how this religion ever got by as far as they did is beyond me.



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LDS.ORG OR JW.ORG PICK YOUR POSION...
by ADJUSTMENTS 2 years ago 13 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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ADJUSTMENTS
ADJUSTMENTS 2 years ago

Mormon or Jehovah's Wittnesses... LDS.ORG OR JW.ORG... I almost can't tell the difference anymore, I remember saying Mormons are crazy... lol I should have looked in the mirror. Just another modern day, western born, religious cult. Someone with a little money started a company.

Mormon founder :
http://www.mormon.org/faq/founder-of-mormon-church
http://www.mormon.org/beliefs/joseph-smith
Charles russell anyone???

Mormon beliefs and practices:
http://www.mormon.org/beliefs/articles-of-faith
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/13/13262285-mormon-church-earns-7-billion-a-year-from-tithing-analysis-indicates
https://www.lds.org/training/wwlt/2013/hastening/members-and-missionaries?lang=eng

Sound a little familiar anyone???
Mormon Magazines:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/new-era/2014?lang=eng
Watchtower and awake anyone???


Choosing to become a Mormon or Jehovahs Wittnesse is like choosing between, LG or SAMSUNG, HONDA or TOYOTA, MCDONALDS or BURGER KING...
Similar yet different depending on who's choosing and their likes and dislikes, it's a little nauseating to have been a part of this network of cults.
 
blondie
blondie 2 years ago

Samsung
Toyota
McDonalds
my informed choices due to research and experience
Of the 2 choices being presented with the LDS conversion push when I was 12 and not baptized as a jw yet, I chose jw eventually. Now I know the only way to win is not to play (choose).
 
ADJUSTMENTS
ADJUSTMENTS 2 years ago

lol my choices were opposite.
Wow blondie seems the LDS start young also, why am I not surprised...
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

I could be exposed to a biased sample, but I swear the white-shirt-and-tie Mormon males on bikes in my locale are a darn sight more attractive that the JW males in sweaty crimpolene suits.
 
naazira
naazira 2 years ago

I would drink the LDS kool-aid. At least, I would be able and even encouraged to attend college. I would be allowed to vote, say merry Christmas and dress up during Halloween- as long as my costume isn't satanic. I'll be able to go to heaven and become like god, and eventually rule over my own planet. All I have to do is wear under garments, give up coffee, tea, sweets and have lots of children, pay dues and attend service. At least I'm guaranteed an afterlife in one of the levels of heaven. With Jehovah I'm either back on earth or still in the grave.
 
blondie
blondie 2 years ago

2/3 of angels coming to earth to be tested as humans, At death they return to heaven with as rulers in their own universe surround by wife and children.
Adam and Eve were set up to fail by getting 2 contradictory laws; not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad (sex) and become many and fill the earth.
that the native Americans are descendants of the 10 lost tribes although DNA does not support that
For example, while some believe the three members of the Trinity are of one substance, Latter-day Saints believe they are three physically separate beings, but fully one in love, purpose and will.
Until 1978 black male members could not serve in a position of oversight
I read the book of Mormon and their other holy books and saw that these books updated or replaced the bible teachings
I saw a movie designed to teach non-LDS what the future held for others....it was even wilder than living forever on a paradise earth
-------------
I finally decided that group worship was not necessary, I did not have to pick the best of the worst; I did not have to pick
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

It is becoming increasingly apparent that both the Mormons and the JWs have hired the same media-relations consulting company.
 
pixel
pixel 2 years ago

None. Although I find the Mormom website more atractive...
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

At least on the LDS site you can research your family tree. For web interaction both get a big fail. For Web 2.0 I vote for http://www.24-7prayer.com
 
Londo111
Londo111 2 years ago

I believe the LDS released their new Bible a year before the Watchtower did.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/282304/1/Get-on-the-bus-JWs-and-Scientologists-are-looking-more-and-more-a-like
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/279533/1/Rumor-New-light-comes-from-outside-marketing-consultants
 
WingCommander
WingCommander 2 years ago

Wow!!!!! The similarities in layouts between these two cult websites is incredible. I agree, they must have the same media consultant group doing work for them!
JW's used to take pride in being "no part of this world" and being different. Now, they are desperately trying to play "catch up" and look the same, in a desperate attempt to no longer look crazy. That's what this is all about....the website, the campaign, the sanitized new image.....a desperate attempt to not appear like the apocolyptic end-times 19th century Neo-Pharasitical cult that they are. It's now no longer even attempting to be about "Truth" anymore, it's all about image. JW.org is the Golden Calf.
Like so many others have stated, I don't recognize the religion that I grew up in.......it is a stranger to me.
- Wing Commander
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

Good grief, not only the same media consultant, but the same programmer/consultant for their online Bible & literature.
It is precisely the same look, format, and "feel" as the JW.org version of the RNWT. They even have a "2013" version of the Bible+BoM, just like there is a "2013" version of the RNWT.
Shoot, maybe they (Mormons & JWs) are planning a merger.
 
Emery
Emery 2 years ago

This maybe a dumb question, but how can we figure it out who they're using if its true? Website code? Hosting company?
 
ADJUSTMENTS
ADJUSTMENTS a year ago

Emery very true question!
 

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A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...
by cedars 3 years ago 56 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Hi everyone
Glancing through the Feb 2013 "public" Watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.
Here is the PDF download link...
http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=PDF&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF&txtCMSLang=E
It's interesting how, in the story, the young man's JW aunt and uncle switch him from Mormonism to the JW faith using third-party material (the Nov 8, 1995 Awake! article), and he ends up becoming a JW after confirming on the official Mormon website that the claims in the Awake! article are "factual".
"There were many things about the Mormon faith that I had accepted, but I wasn’t really sure how the Scriptures compared with those ideas. My aunt sent me the November 8, 1995, issue of the Awake! magazine, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, which included some articles on the Mormon faith. I was surprised that I wasn’t familiar with many of the Mormon teachings. That moved me to search through the official Mormon Web site to confirm that what was stated in Awake! was factual. It was, and those facts were further confirmed when I visited Mormon museums in Utah."
It goes without saying that this could never work the other way round. The Society would never allow anyone to read a third-party commentary on JW beliefs. And it's interesting that most web content that is critical of JW beliefs cites Watchtower publications as a reference, many of which are now available on the Society's official website. Still, checking Watchtower publications with a critical eye simply isn't the done thing.
It's one rule for the Watchtower, another rule for Mormons. "Accept what is written by us, but don't you dare try checking whether it is 'factual' or not. You can only do this for other faiths!"

Cedars
 
MrFreeze
MrFreeze 3 years ago

Out of the freezer and into the frying pan.
 
yadda yadda 2
yadda yadda 2 3 years ago

These kinds of articles are pointless, every weird religion has people who joined from some other weird religion. There are satanists and wiccans who used to be JW's.
 
ldrnomo
ldrnomo 3 years ago

I wonder how many Jdub's become mormons?
 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 3 years ago

Boy, from the one crazy, mind control group to another...
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

Frying pan ------------> Fire
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

double post
 
QueenWitch
QueenWitch 3 years ago

JW, Mormon - both are ridiculous mind control groups
 
Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

I do not know what the Mormons are going to say about this if I they read this statement.

Scott77
 
james_woods
james_woods 3 years ago

Well, perhaps the Mormon can teach the Witnesses how to build better central halls of worship (and how to sing better).
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 years ago

I suppose the "dig deeper brothers " talks wont be to much on issue for the ex Mormon after the tithing he would have had to deal with previously.
 
Kojack57
Kojack57 3 years ago

I refuse to feel sorry for stupid people.
Kojack
 
tiki
tiki 3 years ago

omg - the very thing they fight so rabidly against - independent research - if it works the other way around it is just this magnificent blessed event..............such hypocrisy............
 
00DAD
00DAD 3 years ago

A moron became a JW, so what?
Oh, sorry I mis-read your OP!!!
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 3 years ago

Well, JWs get to wear less underwear . . . . but don't get multiple wives in Heaven.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 years ago

My wife's cousin left the JWs to become a Mormon. I thought it was to because he wanted to marry a Mormon girl he was in love with, but when I spoke to him he actually believes it. I was floored. He was so happy that I had left the Watchtower, and eager for me to examine his religion. Shows how quickly the mind control sucks you in to any bizarre belief system.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

As a true blue dedicated “Mormon” myself, I have never known of any knowledgeable member leaving the church to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Atheists, yes. Agnostics, more so. We have a very complicated theology and, while it clashes at times with the dogmas and the creeds of “traditional” Christianity, it is far more defensible than the, comparatively, superficial theology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So I’m always suspicious when I read articles like this. And despite what some of you think, the LDS church does not engage in “mind control” any more or less than any other religion.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses do. As some of you have pointed out, we LDS are free to visit other churches, read religious material from any other church, pursue higher education (which is encouraged) and exercise the priesthood by baptizing our children and our friends, anointing and blessing the sick, blessing the emblems of the Sacrament and so forth. In our Sunday classes, we have a wide latitude in what we say without fear of some “elder” or “overseer” reprimanding or reporting us and there is no snubbing by family members and friends. If it happens, it’s because people are people; the church discourages it. In one of the collected revelations to the church, the Lord discusses the duties of leaders, advising them to “[Reprove] betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy.” In 1963, church leader Hugh B. Brown stated: “Let us be very careful about this matter of reproving, and yet part of our duty is to see that there is no iniquity in the Church. Again I say, let us be careful how we trample on the feelings of our brothers and sisters. Let us lift them and bless them and benefit them...and never be guilty of humiliating them or causing them to think that we do not appreciate their work.”
We also do not publish articles criticizing other churches. Most LDS would read an article like that and become angry, and with good reason. Is that really what Bethel wants? Even when I went to BYU, one of my theology professors spent an entire lecture on the doctrine of soul sleeping. He spent considerable time explaining the doctrine as though he believed it. Then he spent about equal time explaining the other side and finished by explaining that both sides of the debate had merit, and that it was one reason that the Bible could not be interpreted except by the power of prophecy and revelation.
The bottom line is that people can read our doctrine and judge for themselves. We don’t tell our people not to associate with those outside the church or read or listen to the news. They advise against watching “R” movies, but if you do it, no one will reprimand you. In other words there’s a high level of trust. We’re not perfect, but we’re not what our critics say we are any more than what the critics of first century Christianity said they were.
If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to send me a message.


 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

So we're to conclude that Mormons are somehow experts at avoiding cults?
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Depends on how you define "cults," mate.
The Romans considered the first century Christians to be members of a cult and used the term repeatedly in reference to them. They believed them to be secretive, cliquish and disloyal. Later, Nero used them to deflect anger over Rome's burning (and naturally the Romans believed him...we never learn). Cults originally said to be religions that broke off from other religions and added their own distinctive material to them. The Christians came from the Jews and added unusual and distinctive doctrines which now are taken for granted but then viewed as being strange and heretical. Three gods being one, God having a Son who also would be God, the Messiah not being a deliverer, the concept of hell, the virgin birth and so forth. Although the Christians pointed to various passages in the so-called "Old" testament, the Jews didn't buy off on the theology.
The Mormons are also considered to be secretive, cliquish and disloyal during its early days. It also added distinctive material and scripture, introduced newly "revealed" doctrines that many Christians find strange and heretical; and though we point to many Old and New Testament scripture we believe to support our cause (and who doesn't?), many prefer their own doctrines and traditions. And as Christians are discovering more about the Bible to prove its veracity, we Mormons are discovering more about the Book of Mormon that we feel is strong evidence of its veracity.
It's all point of view.
 
simon17
simon17 3 years ago

"I dug deeper into the teachings
of my faith and also consulted with responsible
Mormon Church leaders. I was told that
the answers to my questions involved mysteries
that one day would be solved as the light became
brighter."

What the hell? Why would they use that expression when that is the same shady explanation they themselves use.
If anything the Mormons are more attractive. At least they say they don't know until the light becomes brighter. JWs insist on the 'wrong' understanding until the light gets brighter and they change it to a new truth.
 

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A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...
by cedars 3 years ago 56 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

If you wanted to be purely mercenary and compare the life effects of being LDS to JW you might be tempted to be LDS based upon the wider family support ( normally excellent youth support ) , women's organisation , singles efforts and the more hopeful nature of LDS theology ( almost zero Armageddon and end times discussion , low focus on bible memorisation for debate purposes and a more confident place in the world - less of a persecution complex.) The modern LDS church has become a desirable place for faith and family based believers but it was not always so. Just as JWs have sacrificed many of the community based life of the members ( good food at conventions, birthdays, Christmas, large gatherings etc.) and replaced these with more 'purity' based concepts so the LDS church is swinging the other way. During the 70s the LDS church got caught up in a wave of end time talk and became much stricter ( my mum wouldn't drink coke or buy sweets called wine gums in case she became addicted to caffeine or got a taste for alcohol by taste association ) especially regarding sex and music ( reaction as well to the era!) but it's gradually winding back those elements to a more 'do what you want in the bedroom' approach rather than 'sex only for kids and force yourself to find it icky while doing it' default.
Tithing is a big put off but again , for the services provided, it's not too bad and some people , once they've given up tea, coffee, alcohol and cigarettes might even come out on top. With the LDS welfare net thrown in ( you can get your bills paid and shopping bought while you struggle - humiliating though ) and the free labour you get ( meals when you are sick , missionaries to help dig your garden and someone normally has a van to help you move house) it's possibly a net gain.
People are of course unique and different and just like lovers that which attracts and the straws that break the camel's back are different. I knew one old guy join the JWs from our congregation due to loneliness (neglect and cliques are still rampant in LDS world despite best efforts to avoid them ) and a deaf guy found the JW deaf program more useful to our naive efforts ( though he thought JW teaching was bonkers) , but I baptised one exJW myself and had another join our church. The latter mentioned how difficult it was to leave the JWs because she would be shunned. Her family have indeed cut her out of their lives. It seems the barriers to JW to LDS conversion are much higher.
There is a tsunami of intellectual disaffection within the LDS church right now that is breaking it from within. It is so blatantly untrue ( historically) that increasingly the core members admit they stay because even if wrong its still a very safe and fulfilling lifestyle and to be fair the people, when they aren't being dogmatic preachers , are pretty awesome.
I suspect the JWs are going to suffer the same problem offset by the level of intellectual maturity they have coupled with Internet access ( so the Westernised portion will die off followed in a few decades by developing world stagnation and then shrinkage.)
Intellectual deconversion raises obvious barriers to future conversion in other faiths.
 
Gorbatchov
Gorbatchov 3 years ago

The DO told us at the recent CA that he and his wife got started to be pioneers after they discussed "If the mormons spent 2 years of their live preaching, why can't we, having the truth, not starting to be a pioneer?"
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 years ago

marked
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 years ago

Cold Steel: How do Mormons respond to the accusation that LDS religion is not historicaly supported?
 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 3 years ago

I suspect that switching from one cult to another is quite common. Cults can be quite addictive.
I see this as being no different than switching from Amway to Herbalife.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 3 years ago

I was surprised that I wasn’t familiar with many of the Mormon teachings.

Doubtful that this person is really famliar with all the JW teachings either. Most JWs DO NOT know what the religion teaches. Why do you think they had to publish a Reasoning Book? JWs DO NOT read the Bible, thus they DO NOT KNOW the Bible. Most cannot explain their most central of teachings. (Think The Gentile Times, Christ's Ransom, etc).
Doc
 
free @ last
free @ last 3 years ago

Excellent summary! Thank you for sharing your perspective Qcmbr.
Having read the posts from some present and former LDS members it's clear many feel damaged by their experience with Mormonism.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/list.php?2
Free
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Cold Steel: How do Mormons respond to the accusation that LDS religion is not historicaly supported?
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you speaking of some aspect of Mormon history or the Book of Mormon?
....some present and former LDS members it's clear many feel damaged by their experience with Mormonism.
Yes, any time one feels they've been deceived, or who have put a great deal of time, effort and money into something for nothing, of course they're going to feel damaged. If someone were to convince me that the church was not what it purported to be, I would feel the same way. I've been LDS since 1971 and I've read countless anti-Mormon books and anti-Christian books. Sometimes I've been stumped on things I couldn't know, such as the Book of Mormon's geographic claims in Saudi Arabia and Oman (which people waved under my nose for years). All I could do was shrug. Then in the 1990s, some of our people got access to that land by special permission, and, using only a Book of Mormon, a compass and a land rover, they traced Lehi's route down by the Red Sea through a steep mountain gorge, found what appears to be the elusive "river of water" and the campsite Lehi and his family lived at for months. They also found an altar of stones and, according to the Saudi Department of Antiquities, the entire campsite dated back to circa 600 B.C., the right time for the Lehites to have been there. The entire route was consistent with The Book of Mormon's account, all the way to the harbor where they built their ship. Neither Joseph Smith, nor anyone else who lived in the Western Hemisphere in 1830, could have possibly been as consistent in their account unless they had actually been there. Back in 1972, no one was able to gain access to that area, so, like I said, we could only shrug and wait. Now extensive work is being done in Mexico, where the Book of Mormon events in the Western Hemisphere are thought by many to have taken place. And as the years go by, it looks more likely, not less likely, that Mexico is the spot. If the BoM were fiction, that should not be the case. So if people find themselves swamped by stuff they read in anti-Mormon books, they will leave and feel embittered, thinking they've been deceived. Apostasy also was common in the early Christian church, so much so that Paul marveled that they were so soon removed unto another gospel.



 
ÁrbolesdeArabia
ÁrbolesdeArabia 3 years ago

Dr. James White, "I think it was him" who was spreading rumors that Mormons were attempting to infiltrate different churches.

I posted a double again, elaborate on Dr. White's worries that Mormons were offering other Churches how to get along, create more family closeness and "Opperations Management" as some kind of Ecumenical Movement, to the detriment of the Church the Mormons were helping.
The goal was to "get in the door" and pilfer the sheep by demonstrating how awesome the LDS Church really is!
 
ÁrbolesdeArabia
ÁrbolesdeArabia 3 years ago

Dr. James White, "I think it was him" who was spreading rumors that Mormons were attempting to infiltrate different churches.

When our Mormon friend figures out JWs don't have "Dance Night" "Don't include everyone in church gatherings" "No Boy Scouts" "No Basket Ball and Volley Ball Night" or admonish education, what will he do?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Oh Cold Steel I'm itching.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel - if you're going to go in search of archeological evidence that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical narrative, I would be more concerned with proving that ancient Jewish civilizations once thrived in North America than tracing the route of some journey across Saudi Arabia.

Cedars
 
Sauerkraut
Sauerkraut 3 years ago

@ Cold Steel: do Mormons practice shunning?
 
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 3 years ago

This is an interesting article about the Mormons' 'Book of Abraham' and comments on their progress towards 'mainstream:
http://richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2012/10/23/mormonism-in-the-mainstream#.ULNF3u_6msM
(Sorry, don't know how to make the link 'clickable'.
 
besty
besty 3 years ago

http://richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2012/10/23/mormonism-in-the-mainstream#.ULNF3u_6msM
 
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 3 years ago

Thanks!
 
D_Rolling_Kearney
D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago

Ah, this is the thread I was looking for; the proper place to post my response to the article mentioned in the OP:
NOT ON
SCURRILOUS TALES, BUT ON FACTS

A response to the Nov. 8th, 1995 Awake! articles on "Mormonism"
http://religion.lightandlearning.org/nost/
 
D_Rolling_Kearney
D_Rolling_Kearney 2 years ago


During the 70s the LDS church got caught up in a wave of end time talk and became much stricter ( my mum wouldn't drink coke or buy sweets called wine gums in case she became addicted to caffeine or got a taste for alcohol by taste association ) especially regarding sex and music ( reaction as well to the era!) but it's gradually winding back those elements to a more 'do what you want in the bedroom' approach rather than 'sex only for kids and force yourself to find it icky while doing it' default.
Perhaps the people you knew only started to pay attention to these things during the 70's, but they have been a part of Mormonism since the early days. A quick search of the Doctrine & Covenants reveals that preparation for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ was always taught as important, and this is scripturally connected to what many refer to as the Apocalypse, or a destruction that precedes it. The health laws which condemn harmful substances are contained in the Word of Wisdom (D&C 89). They were revealed in 1833 and never changed. It is true that there was a special focus on music during the 70's, and that probably did follow the concerns of the general culture, but they were not, however, unique to the era, as LDS Church leaders warned about the content and effect of popular music much earlier than that. LDS scriptures also make a distinction between good and bad music.

There is a tsunami of intellectual disaffection within the LDS church right now that is breaking it from within.
This claim is false, according to available data from non-LDS sources:
"Many Latter-day Saints, however are finding answers that confirm and renew their faith, according to research conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life for its landmark "Mormons in America" [PDF] study last year. A significant majority — 77 percent — of those who identify themselves as members of the LDS Church "believe wholeheartedly in all the teachings of the church." That number is higher among respondents who have attended college (81 percent), and even higher (85 percent) among those who are college graduates.
Some Latter-day Saints, however — 22 percent in the survey — find that "some teachings of the LDS Church are hard for me to believe." That number declines as individual educational level increases." [Source]
See also, Latter-day Saint Social Life: Social Research on the LDS Church and its Members, edited by James T. Duke, especially chapter 9: Secularization, Higher Education, and Religiosity, which presents similar findings.

It is so blatantly untrue ( historically) that increasingly the core members admit they stay because even if wrong its still a very safe and fulfilling lifestyle…
Two problems here.
1) It is absolutely false to claim that the LDS Church is "blatantly untrue ( historically)." In fact, there is much to support its claims, some of which was laid out about 60 years ago in the book (which you can read online), An Approach to the Book of Mormon. There are many more places you can go for evidences supporting the Book of Mormon, and I have provided several in my response to the Awake magazine. You have to do your homework instead of merely making unverifiable claims.
2) It would be ridiculous to stay in an organization you believed was wrong, though I realize there are some who do fall into this category you describe. How "safe" is a false organization? Just ridiculous. If you still believe in God, go find out where He wants you to be!

Just trying to keep people honest here. The worst kinds of arguments are those based on false information. Don't want to be Mormon? Great. Just don't go around telling lies about us, intentionally or otherwise.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

I personally don't care if the Mormons are historically accurate or not, however many of the teachings do seem preposterous and far fetched. If you want to believe Joseph Smith found golden tablets and spoke to a salamander, well, I guess that's your choice, I really don't care. More important to me is that it is a high control religion. The culture of the JWs and the Mormons have a lot of similarities. Having studied cults to free myself from the bonds of the JWs, I know enough to know one when I see one.
We already have a Mormon who comes here to try and drum up interest in your cult, and that's one to many in my book. There is absolutely nothing you could say that would cause me to be interested in your religion.

 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

D rolling I am a mormon (yes they still havent processed my resignation). I am in contact with many ex-mormons and many leaving but active members. If you insist on claiming im lying I will post the stuff both you and cold steel do not want to hear. The lds church is being decimated in the uk (since I last posted on this subject I have had a couple leave and their son come and borrow borrow Quinn's book on magic in the early church. I have had 2 other members express doubts about the 'truth' but saying that the church is still good and another internet contact say she's had to change her stance though she still has a testimony of god. The church cannot suffer this level of disaffection as it doesnt baptise enough. In the time my local church has lost 25 core members it has baptised 3 and retained 2. The branch up the road has had 3 core members leave in the last year.of those who left and I have talked -about 15 - 10 said they left because of specific historical things , 2 said they left to live life and 3 didnt agree with current doctrine regarding homosexuality.
Do the research, man up and face the facts. The church we both love and gave our souls to is not the truth. It hurts like hell but dressing up like a baker in a huge fancy building learning masonic symbols is rank silliness. Endless meetings, empty prayers, pretending to heal while knowing a real miracle would make national news, reading stories about huge civilisations for whom there is no evidence and plenty of counter evidence, giving money to a corporation who donate about 1% to actual good works and pay the top leaders vast amounts and studying material that is regularly disproved by science - this is the life we try to pretend is the truth. As someone who is not your enemy I beg you to let go the emotion and start asking the real, tough questions.
 

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Topic Summary
glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.
it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!
article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!



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A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...
by cedars 3 years ago 56 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Really interesting OP thanks Qcmbr.
 
barry
barry 2 years ago

The mormons have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and thats a big plus
Pity their theology is all wrong and the book of mormon is fiction
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 2 years ago

Maybe the guy was tired of having to wear Majic Underwear.
Rub a Dub
 
Hairtrigger
Hairtrigger 2 years ago

MOR-JWs_MON. Next= OIN-OIN-LUIS-TED.
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 2 years ago

Somehow, this reminds of a guy I used to work with, who told me he caught Gonorrhea twice, from the same woman. Some people just don't learn.
 
cultBgone
cultBgone 2 years ago

I think the point Cedars made was that:
1. The article showed that the Mormon gentleman was persuaded by "worldly" sources that the jw teachings were correct.
2. As we all well know, jws are NOT allowed to read anything "worldly".
3. Therefore, the logic behind the article (whether it was true or not) was totally fallible.
It cannot be right for someone of another faith to use "worldly" sources to "come into the truth" but wrong for someone of the jw faith to NOT be able to use "worldly" sources to read about the jws.
 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

Has anyone seen the film "Latter Days", about a Mormon Missionary who comes "out of the closet" to his neighbour, who is Gay?
I believe the Mormons have a provision for LGBT people.. to help cope with the Clash that exists with Mormon Doctrine.
This film however, clearly shows a Shunning by his family... him Mum eventually comes to visit him.
I found the film very moving... does any provision exist in the WT movement for LGBT support these days?
Any thoughts?
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


LisaRose: If you want to believe Joseph Smith found golden tablets and spoke to a salamander, well, I guess that's your choice, I really don't care.
Well, no one I know believes that anyone talks with salamanders. You are behind the times, LR. The whole "salamander" thing was a hoax perpetrated by Mark Hofmann in the early 80s. Most likely the most talented forger in history, he obviously drew on scandalous anti-Mormon literature from the early to mid-1800s. The text itself caused many to doubt its legitimacy; however, many others could not prove it was not legitimate. It took a trained investigator months to note that the ink, under a microscope, was cracked. But in known documents of the day, the ink showed no such irregularities.
To slur a religion you know little to nothing about does nothing for your credibility. If you don't, as you say, care, why post at all?
Qcmbr:The lds church is being decimated in the uk....
So is every Christian religion. As stated by LDS apologist Dr. Daniel Peterson:

European Secularism
A more interesting form of secular anti-Mormonism springs out of, or at least is related to, elite European secularism generally.
Some years ago, with time on my hands following the close of an academic gathering in Graz, Austria, I spent the better part of a day looking through the city’s bookstores. The dollar being weak, prices being high, and my luggage being cramped, I did much more looking and browsing than buying. I soon discovered an extraordinarily interesting topic: The treatment of Mormonism in travel books published for America-bound Europeans. Since then, I’ve enjoyed many similar books in French and Italian bookstores as well as across Germanic Europe. Almost uniformly, the tone is one of astonishment–subtly expressed or, often, quite open–at the stupidity and gullibility of the Latter-day Saints. Additionally, Mormon history and doctrine are plainly deemed too patently absurd to justify much effort at accuracy.
But Mormons represent merely an opportunity for a more general European attitude to focus on a particularly ludicrous target. In a recent book attempting to explain the American mind to bemused German-speakers, Professor Hans-Dieter Gelfert observes that, “To Europeans, American religiosity must necessarily seem naive, if not primitive. Here [in Germany], educated people are assisted, above all, by enlightened theologians who reinterpret Christian teaching as an ethical doctrine suited for the everyday, but at the same time philosophically abstract. In the meanwhile, there are pastors who believe that they can get by altogether without mentioning God’s name. It’s completely different in America, where the Bible is still the Word of God.”
According to Phil Zuckerman, of Pitzer College, rates of agnosticism or atheism in Scandinavia, the Czech Republic, and France reach levels higher than fifty percent. There and elsewhere, underused churches are being converted into concert halls, museums, art galleries, stores, restaurants, condos, even nightclubs. In Scandinavia, for some reason, it is popular to transform churches into carpet stores. It is well known that the late Pope John Paul II believed that the future of Catholicism lay not in spiritually dying Europe, but to the south, in Latin America and, perhaps even more so, in Africa. Benedict XVI appears to share that view, with reason.
“In the eyes of many if not most Europeans,” Professor Gelfert observes, “American taste is equivalent to tastelessness.”7 (One is tempted to suggest that, given their own still relatively recent history of something rather worse than poor taste, a bit of humility might be in order for the Germans, at least. And I say this as something of a Germanophile.) Thus, European disdain for American religiosity functions as part of a broader contempt for American culture, nicely embodied, as a surprisingly large number of residents of both the Continent and the British Isles see it, in our religious fanatic cowboy president. And what could be more American than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known for its freshly-scrubbed, naive, nineteen-year-old missionaries, hailing mostly from the American West?
Anti-Mormonism in Europe is overwhelmingly of the secular variety; evangelical anti-Mormonism, on the whole, is no more than a minor irritant because the same general European secularism that directly challenges missionary success on the continent and in the British Isles also confronts and hampers our evangelical friends. But secularist anti-Mormonism is doing real damage to many fragile testimonies there, and an adequate response has still not materialized. This is a challenge that apologists in Europe itself but also in the Church’s American home base urgently need to address.
Source
You can watch his comments in total at:

&feature=player_detailpage
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

I saw a couple of Mormon missionary lads in my town last week. It was a hot Saturday and they were wearing black suits, white shirts and black ties - and no doubt very big white underpants. Looked pathetic.
When are you going to realise that British people are not impressed by risible fairy stories told by naive American boys who should be back home drinking beer and chasing girls?
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago

Another depressingly moronic insight, Cofty. Sometimes I wish you would actually have something substanative to say rather than ejaculating whatever first enters your head. This all we ever get from you. At least QCMBR makes intelligent posts, though I don't agree with many of them. And BTW, we have plenty of British saints, as well as Spanish, German and even French saints. So please do so evermuch excuse me for not recognizing you as spokesman for the British people. Toodles.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Cold Steel - non of the people leaving cite the US as any part of the decision. People are leaving because the church lied about certain key historical things, it obfuscated important contextual facts, it changed doctrine and ritual that it claimed was unchangeable, it failed every scientific challenge, it has been unable to replicate the supposed miracles of Jesus and perhaps the most telling of all - it has proven time and again that wealth and money are its unspoken aim. Your (!) Church has spent more money by several orders of magnitude on setting up businesses than it ever has on charitable works.
By their fruits....
 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

Any Mormon/current JW with an answer to my enquiry 4 days ago?... what is the current Mormon attitude towards Shunning as shown in the film "Latter Days"? and, I understand that the Mormons have a LGBT group, do JWs currently have such a group to help such ones?

any comment would be appreciated.
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

You can't go wrong with Thor. I read the book and saw the movie, its all real.
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 2 years ago

@podobear...
Mormons have openly gay members who choose not to follow a gay lifestyle in terms of sex - essentially remaining celibate. You can find examples of this on the web. I also note that there are LGBT groups for Mormons.
JWs have nothing of the sort. Although it is recognised that individuals may have homesexual desires an individual could only remain an approved witness if they remained celibate. It is the rarest exception for an individual to be known as gay, the only examples being where one has become a witness (or been reinstated) after openly practising a homosexual lifestyle. It is essentially unknown for any "born in" to openly come out as gay but remain celibate. There are 0 official or even unoffically tolerated groups for ones who may be gay but wish to remain a witness.
No one can have homesexual relationships and remain a witness. They would be disfellowshipped. This includes a relationships where the law allows gay marriage. So even if an individual did not have sex until after marriage to their partner they would be disfellowshipped.
The only way of being gay and remaining an approved witness is to suppress any sexual desires. The other way was to go to Bethel and be abused by one or two of the top bods but they seemingly have even got rid of that now.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

I haven't seen the film you mention so I cant comment on that. I have known several members in good standing who were homosexual and who held church callings and attended the temple. Mormons, in the UK, approach things in a don't ask manner however, since all members are under the same 'law of chastity'(basically no non married sex)this poses a unique challenge. Mormons of course do not accept gay marriage. This denial of the right to marry out of desire has been the storm that has sent many lds gay men into depression, suicide and misguided straight marriages. At its most extreme the church sponsored some pretty immoral aversion therapies as well. Now, pressured by secular society and from the liberal members within it is repackaging its gay offering but it is still underpinned by a 'love the sinner hate the sin' ethos. The church is making huge media steps and baby equality steps with regards homosexuality. I suspect we will need the old hardliners to die before we see meaningful change but the groundwork is starting.
With regards to shunning it is not too formal (unless you are a vocal apostate) and in many ways the attempt to reclaim 'lost sheep' wouldnt work if shunning was encouraged. In effect some members may unofficially shun and family members are still capable of crazy things so you will always find horror stories.
 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

@ Konceptual 99 and Qmbr:
Thank you for coming back to me. I would urge you to watch the film. It moved me.
The Missionary in the film was all but rejected my his Father... his mother follows the lead.. but, eventually Motherly love wins the day.
As You both say neither group seems to accept that Sexual Orientation is a biological and Natural thing and there is little or no provision for JWs to seek comfort and help in a safe haven.
Truly sad in a Modern world.



 
new22day
new22day 2 years ago

A Mormon becomes a Jdub, proving that for some people it's just easier to follow and let others do the thinking.
 

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Topic Summary
glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.
it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!
article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!



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A JW--Mormon Alliance? WT and LDS Merger?
by cameo-d 6 years ago 25 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower scandals
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cameo-d
cameo-d 6 years ago

First, there is a disclaimer on the webiste that it is not an "official" LDS website. However, what appears to be promoted is Mormon based.

Why would a Mormon based website title itself "Upon the Watchtower"?

Why would a Mormon based site use this quote as a 'slogan' on the home page:
"And in that day, all who are found Upon The Watchtower, or in other words, All mine Israel, shall be saved."

Why would a Mormon based site use the image of a Watchtower as its page headers?
Why would a Mormon based website call its forum "Awake and arise"?

Are these two cults beginning a merge?
Do they really have anything in common that links them?

quote:
The LDS church will formally withdraw from the world and will gather its saints under a separate political and economic head. New Jerusalem will be built and the LDS church will exist as a separate nation on the earth.

http://www.uponthewatchtower.org/?p=1720
------
 
Lillith26
Lillith26 6 years ago

"follow the yellow brick road"
Cameo-d, follow the yellow bricks (money), where does it lead you???
 
agonus
agonus 6 years ago

Sure. They both came from the Freemasons and met together to compare notes with the Illuminati in the '50s...
 
agonus
agonus 6 years ago

The "remnant" of the "144,000" "anointed" are, by definition, latter day saints, no?
 
agonus
agonus 6 years ago

By God, that video looks like something right out of Bethel - right down to the unhappy-looking young girl "believer"...
 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 6 years ago

Strange isn't it...I guess cults have too many things in common, and specially LDS and JW's that their roots are based on pyramidology
 
Mary
Mary 6 years ago

When I lived in Calgary, there was a big problem with Witness girls and Mormon boys getting together. The Mormon guys thought the Witness girls were hotter than Mormon girls and Witness girls thought the Mormon guys were hotter than Witness guys. A few of them ended up getting married. This caused a huge rucus for both the Dubs and the Mormons and the elders from both groups actually met (in secret) to discuss the "problem". No one was supposed to know about he meeting, but alot of us did anyway. Not sure what the outcome was, but I thought it was funny at the time.
 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 6 years ago

That's strange Mary...Well in my country we don't have Mormons like in U.S. But I see them more oftenly doing preaching work, instead of JW's, and those are missionaries from U.S. We only have few Greek Mormons, comparing to JW's who are 29.000. But in US who is the motherland of those big cults it is interesting to see how they behave. Any how either JW's or Mormons they do find hot any girl outside their circle
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 6 years ago

I like the 'mission statement' page....


 
Gregor
Gregor 6 years ago



 
RubaDub
RubaDub 6 years ago

I don't see a merger happening unless they come to some agreement on drinking ... Bethel without beer .... NO WAY.
Rub a Dub
 
Farkel
Farkel 6 years ago

:grinning:o they really have anything in common that links them?
Yes. They both know there's a sucker born every minute.
Farkel
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 6 years ago

Now that I think about it, it could be a real cost savings measure for the Society.
To save money, they could make the CO's travel between congregations on a bike.
Rub a Dub
 
steve2
steve2 6 years ago

I wouldn't be too surprised if your perfectly reasonable questions about the seeming JW-Mormon alliance "offshoot" don't have reasonable answers. It's religion and that virtually means any kind of "reasoning" goes.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

I see the real fight happening when they join ranks in the 'ministry'. Jw's without 'coffee' breaks? No way!
Jeff
 
Gregor
Gregor 6 years ago

You are right, Jeff. Giving up coffee and alcohol is a deal killer.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the LDS church could buy and sell the WTB&TS 20 times over.
 
TD
TD 6 years ago

Why would a Mormon based website title itself "Upon the Watchtower"?
I don't know. Because they both like the book of Isaiah? Because the watchtower motif appeals to their respective self images?

Do they really have anything in common that links them?
Doctrinally, almost nothing. In the western U.S. the two groups fight like cats and dogs.
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 6 years ago

Just looks like another krazy to me. The content doesn't seem all that Witnessy.
 
dissed
dissed 6 years ago

I could see them working together on some international project, but never joining forces.
Unlike the JW's who claim they are not inspired, the LDS President of Church Prophet talks to JC and he talks back on a regular basis. The LDS don't need the JW's, they are loaded with money and are still growing as a church.
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 6 years ago

I could see them working together on some international project, but never joining forces.
Unlike the JW's who claim they are not inspired, the LDS President of Church Prophet talks to JC and he talks back on a regular basis. The LDS don't need the JW's, they are loaded with money and are still growing as a church.
Quite right. The Mormons know that allowing families to grow large, and allowing husbands to be major breadwinners without shame, means that they can have larger and larger tithes.
Even though the theology is loonier than Looney Tunes, they know what encourages fidelity and steady growth.
 

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A JW--Mormon Alliance? WT and LDS Merger?
by cameo-d 6 years ago 25 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower scandals
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EmptyInside
EmptyInside 6 years ago

Well, that's sounds a bit far- fetched to me. There would be a mass exodus on both ends if that happened. That would be the final straw for me. I do know a former Witness who became Mormon. But, she was the type that made everybody say good riddance, they can have her.
 
Violia
Violia 6 years ago

This is a joke- right? I mean, there is a song with the verse " all along the Watchtower" - that does not mean that group has aligned forces with the wts. The WTS and the LDS have nothing of doctrine in common that I am aware of. They are not even kissing cousins.
And yeah , the coffee and booze would be definite deal breakers- unless they were consicence matters.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 6 years ago

Cameo-d asked, "...Why would a Mormon based site use this quote as a 'slogan' on the home page: 'And in that day, all who are found Upon The Watchtower, or in other words, All mine Israel, shall be saved.'"
Perhaps you know, Cameo-d, that the "Book of Mormon" was first published in 1830. This was 48 years BEFORE Chuck Russell and his Bible-Beltin' Badboys got their start.
Perhaps you also know, Cameo-d, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have other "sacred books." For example, the Bible of Christendom. They also have a "sacred" book called THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS.
Doctrine & Covenants 101:12 - "And in that day all who are found upon the awatch-tower, or in other words, all mine Israel, shall be saved."
So your GREAT MYSTERY is at least partially solved - the reason WHY a Mormon site would quote that slogan is because it is part of their scripture.
...but please don't let facts interfere with your right to use your mind in any way you choose.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 6 years ago

The Watchtowr is going to merge with BOB DYLAN! Pass it on!
All Along The Watchtower

"There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth,
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth."
"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke,
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."
All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.

How much more plain does it have to be, man? Listen to the album! Listen to the album!
 
Violia
Violia 6 years ago

Nathan I would say you were cool, but that would give my age away. What is the new term, rad, boss?
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 6 years ago

Violia, I'm old enuff to be down with "cool." Thank you.
 

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Topic Summary
first, there is a disclaimer on the webiste that it is not an "official" lds website.
however, what appears to be promoted is mormon based.. .
why would a mormon based website title itself "upon the watchtower"?.



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Jehovah's Witnesses - People of Integrity
by Saved_JW 5 months ago 17 Replies latest 4 months ago   jw experiences
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Saved_JW
Saved_JW 5 months ago

When I think of Integrity, a lot of positive connotations come to mind. I think of individuals grounded in principles, who do not operate on opinions that change based on the breeze of political or social change. A life that is directed by a code of morality, not on capricious emotions.
People of integrity are the best types of leaders, marriage mates, employees and members of our society.
It comes as no surprise that the word Integrity is vastly used in the Watchtower society as one of the most important traits an individual can have with their dedication to Jehovah.
After being out of the Watchtower for the better part of 6 years now, I have had some time to reflect on this important issue of integrity and really ask myself: Are Jehovah's Witnesses people of integrity? and if so, to what? This is what I hope to answer.
Keeping in step with the Organization
I remember quite clearly sitting in the hospital room with my JW friends and family after my grandfather had a stroke a few years ago. One of the few opportunities I had to actually be able to talk to them. I sat in the corner of the waiting room listening to the conversations like a shamed fly on the wall. I had the distinct impression that the goal of those seemingly natural conversations about the Watchtower, were intentional and purposeful in an effort to stir me into coming back to the organization.
In one such conversation, I couldn't help but laugh on the inside. My uncle began to talk about the appointment of the new governing body members. he commented on how young they were, and he never thought he would see the day when he would be the same age as a governing body member [he being a former bethelite himself] The direction of his conversation was meant to convey urgency, as if big changes equates to big events in the near future.
The conversations continued on, some talk about the direction of the Watchtower, and yet others speaking about the loyalty of the newly appointed governing body members. I couldn't help but notice in the 1/2 hour discussion, not one mention about Jesus or Jehovah. Their hope for the future, their dedication was squarely placed in the direction of the Watchtower Society.
After the conversations simmered down and my family funneled out of the waiting room, my father just sat there reading a magazine from the table. I sat next to him and talked to him about some of the issues I had with the Watchtower. These issues were placed squarely on doctrinal issues that contradict the bible. I showed him right from the bible the problems with the 144,000 doctrine, and having a two class salvation cannot work scripturally. Either you are saved or you aren't. Either you have Jesus as your mediator, or something else must take Jesus place. [See Romans 8; Revelation 19]
He looked in wonder as I showed him from Revelation 19 that the "Great Crowd" was actually In heaven. I responded to him by saying. "So you see the reason why I cannot return to the Watchtower. It isn't because im bitter with God, it isn't because I have a grudge. I cannot return as a matter of integrity. I cannot in good conscience claim to be a Jehovah's Witness, when the very doctrines they promote contradict scripture. Even worse, they [the Governing Body] replace the role of Jesus as mediator in the life of the believer."
My dad recognizing the clear contradiction in scripture to the Watchtower sat there completely puzzled. Which isn't something that I am used to. He is a congregation secretary, he always had the right answers, a very smart and quick witted man. His reply to me was one of the most impactful yet revealing things that exposed much of the Jehovah's Witness mentality.
He said " you know, the most important thing that we can do right now is recognize that the Governing Body will never lead us astray, they have our best interests at heart. that's why its important for all of us to keep in step with Gods organization."
 Loyalty to who?
My dad's unscripted heartfelt reply is not unlike what most JW's will say when confronted with a dilemma of this magnitude. Yet at the same time, his reply revealed a huge amount of information as to the true source of his loyalty.
you see, at the end of the day, when presented with clear biblical evidence of a contradiction from Watchtower policy to Biblical doctrine. His knee jerk reaction WAS NOT to set aside his Watchtower bias, but instead, set aside altogether the bible in leau of trust in the Watchtower.
His comment "The Watchtower has our best interests at heart" revealed to me that all information, all judgment calls are filtered through that one emotional presupposition. Namely, that the Watchtower cares. As long as the Watchtower cares about him, they will always do what is right, even when they are wrong, they will still correct themselves. In his mind, Jehovah will look past even the most blatant unbiblical doctrines that he is following, because the most important thing is that he is loyal to the Organization.
Are Jehovah's Witnesses people of Integrity?
the short answer to this is YES. Jehovah's Witnesses are some of the most loyal people around. But that really depends on the OBJECT of your loyalty. Their loyalty at the end of the day is grounded not on scripture, but instead the Watchtower society who interprets scripture for them.
What this means is, on the surface , Jehovah's Witnesses will think they are loyal to Jehovah and to the bible, but practically and functionally are actually loyal to the Organization. If a Watchtower doctrine contradicts scripture, they will always side with the Watchtowers interpretation, they will put trust that "Jehovah will correct things in time" or "we are to keep in step with Gods organization" these are all sayings that reveal the true source of integrity. Willing to compromise the truth of scripture for the doctrines of man. What this also means is that their principles are not grounded in any code that is absolute and timeless, they are grounded in a code that constantly changes based on cultural changes dictated by the Watchtower. The Watchtower of today is vastly different then the Watchtower of 1980, so on and so forth.
When Jehovah's Witnesses dedicate their lives to "Jehovah" they are in reality dedicating themselves to an Organization knowing that todays truth is tomorrows lie and heresy. They are completely willing to dedicate themselves to a code of change that they know nothing about in the future. Completely willing to submit to the direction of an Organization, simply because "they have our best interests at heart"
 +8 / -2
Oubliette
Oubliette 5 months ago


Are Jehovah's Witnesses people of Integrity? The short answer to this is YES. Jehovah's Witnesses are some of the most loyal people around.
No. Loyalty and integrity are not synonymous.
You began with this:

I think of individuals grounded in principles, who do not operate on opinions that change based on the breeze of political or social change. A life that is directed by a code of morality, not on capricious emotions.
By those standards alone JWs fail the test of integrity BECAUSE they are blindly obedient (what you call "loyalty") to the GB.
 +8 / -0
never a jw
never a jw 5 months ago
Good opening piece, but as noted by Oubliette, the main premise is flawed. JW's lose their integrity in order to stay loyal.

 +7 / -0
Saved_JW
Saved_JW 5 months ago

Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
Loyalty: the quality of being loyal to someone or something.
I used these two terms purposefully, Jehovah's Witnesses are people of strong moral conviction. [Morality defined by the Watchtower] principled only in the sense that those codes conform to Watchtower principles.
In a way, I am trying to use a play on words to appeal to the JW reader in a hope that they will see the difference between Loyalty to the Watchtower and Loyalty to God. Secondly, people of integrity to the Watchtower or people of integrity to Scripture. I want to show them that contrast.
I agree to the differences to those terms. no argument with me

 +2 / -1
Simon
Simon 5 months ago

By that reasoning every cult member has integrity because of their loyalty to their leadership. The more loyal they are (usually blindly) then the more integrity they have ?
Scientologists have more integrity than the JWs ...
Heavens Gate followers had more integrity than Scientologists ...
Blind loyalty to a leadership shows a complete lack of integrity. Integrity is standing up for principles no matter who you have to stand against. JWs simply don't do that when the society is involved - they think it can do no wrong even when it clearly violates the ideals it claims to promote. They have no integrity.
Their morals are "don't lie" but they defend the WTS lies because of loyalty and many worse examples that cause cognitive dissonance and internal conflict if they do have integrity.
A JW with integrity is destined to become an apostate.
 +11 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 5 months ago
Thinking about your father's comment about then having your best interests at heart, I was reminded of something another poster here said when talking about JWs trusting the org. They believe that the org is truthful because they are truthful and they assume that the org that (they think) taught them to be truthful would be. That goes for this too, I think. Your father cares about people and he's bought into the indoctrination that all his good personality traits are because of the org so he assumes the thing that taught him to care must also care about him.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 5 months ago

It is possible to lose your integrity and remain loyal to something or someone.
I think many JWS have failed personal integrities.
 +3 / -0
cappytan
cappytan 5 months ago

Many JWs I know have a measure of integrity.
The organization on the other hand is heartless and has no integrity.
Remember: apostates love individual JWs....we just hate the Watchtower brand.
 +2 / -0
truthseeker100
truthseeker100 5 months ago

Hitler's SS were integrity keepers too. Nice to be in good company.
 +3 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 5 months ago

I think of a person of Integrity as someone who is scrupulously honest.
Jehovah's Witnesses as an Organization are extremely dishonest. Most individual JW's are dishonest too, at least in some measure.
The readiness with which they drop old beliefs and take on new does not bespeak integrity either.
 +1 / -0
Saved_JW
Saved_JW 5 months ago

yes, my entire point is that JW's THINK that they are people of integrity to SCRIPTURE and to God, but the reality is different. They use words like Loyalty to Jehovah, and People of integrity. But when you boil it all down, they are loyal to the Organization which changes all the time. The irony is of course, they are not actually people of integrity when it comes to absolute standards, principles and codes, since the watchtowers codes and standards change all the time. I hope that makes sense. That's the irony I wanted to expose.
I will edit my post slightly to clarify
 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 5 months ago
My personal experience was that my parent's integrity diminished when they decided to dedicate themselves to Jehovah. Elevating themselves to one of God's Chosen, gave them the mythological right to become self-righteous, holier-that-thou, mean-spirited a-holes. Our family was irreparably damaged because of this.

 +1 / -0
clarity
clarity 5 months ago

Maybe the integrity of jws can be summed-up in the often heard retort...
"even if they are wrong, I still wouldn't leave!"
clarity
 +2 / -0
Oubliette
Oubliette 5 months ago


SJW: They use words like Loyalty to Jehovah, and People of integrity. But when you boil it all down, they are loyal to the Organization which changes all the time.
You're preaching to the choir. We already know.
 +1 / -0
Alive!
Alive! 5 months ago

A good post for those quietly reading and questioning things.
Having integrity was always important to me - so when painful doubts about the organisation and the Watchtower could no longer be pushed away, I then had to manage a rough time whilst I struggled with 'losing' my integrity. The integrity that was built on a certain premise - loyalty to the FDS/Christ's self professed brothers was/is synonymous with loyalty to Jehovah/Christ Jesus.
This imaged 'integrity' battled with a grittier integrity - and as time goes on, peace becomes achievable - thank goodness!
The OP struck a chord with me - I recognised that major hurdle for witnesses, and how hard it is to deconstruct the image of group integrity ( and the dishonest nature of the organisation) and let personal integrity emerge.
 +1 / -0
HomebytheSea
HomebytheSea 5 months ago
People of integrity don't turn a blind eye to child abuse and say, "Don't worry, Jehovah will take care of it!"
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 5 months ago
I have remembered, throughout my non-JW life, the song that went "But as for me, determined I shall be to walk eternally in my integrity". It was my integrity that got me df'd for apostasy. That song still resonates with me.
 +2 / -0
Clambake
Clambake 4 months ago

I live a few doors down from an elder and he had some extra construction supplies( Insulation). He asked me if I would like to buy it from him and I save the tax and it saves him from taking back to the store. Since I was working on my house, no problem.
He told me he paid 80 dollars a bail and 10 bails so I cut him a check.
Just for fun later I checked it out on the home depot website and he only paid 40 dollars  a bail. He screwed me out of 400 dollars.
I asked him about it. He said it was a mistake and he would pay me back. Two years later I am still waiting. Now he just avoids me like the plague.
Too funny. The 400 dollars was worth the lesson I got to show my wife. Don’t trust elders.

 +2 / -0

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My Mormon buddy
by AloneinOh 11 years ago 9 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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AloneinOh
AloneinOh 11 years ago


I felt compelled to post this to kind of stick up for my buddy a little bit. I'm not sticking up for mormons....only sticking up for a friend that happens to be a mormon. Some may say he is secretly trying to convert me, but he really is, just a friend that happens to be a mormon.
I am in no way endorsing mormons or have any desire to be one. The only way I would be a mormon is if the only other choice was jw. I have known him for 15 years now. MB (my buddy) is 52yrs old and raised as mormon (in Utah no less). He was a missionary overseas, but I don't remember where. He is an elder, has been for many years. He is also a bible school teacher. He is educated and has a masters in business admin.
In the 15 years I have known him he has never, ever, not even once, mentioned anything about religious beliefs or even brought up a scripture from the bible, other than to say that he was a mormon. Not until I went to him with a religious question. When I did, he didn't give me the answer I expected. He made me find the answer myself. He only directed me to the bible and gave me general info on where to find what I was looking for. His advice to me was to read it myself. If I was sincerely looking for answers, I would understand what was there. I think this was the best advice that he could have possibly given me.
Since then, (several months now) we have talked about all kinds of religious stuff. Always initiated by me though. The only time he brings it up is to ask me if I found what I was looking for. He never takes it any farther unless I pursue it.
He isn't your typical mormon. At least not what my perception of a typical mormon is. We are close enough that he even confides in me with some very deep and personal feelings. Including the excommunication of his wife and all of the events surrounding it. Not something a lot of people would be willing to open up about, especially siince this is happening right now....not a past event. I really feel for what he is going through. As he really does for me in my current situation.
Mb has even had run-ins with his mormon "superiors" because of disagreements over what is taught and believed (remember, he is an elder and teacher). He related an experience to me of the time he had such a disagreement with the bishop over a teaching that he was hauled before the mormon version of a judicial commitee. Even then, it got so bad that they ended up in front of the bishops "superiors". The end result was the issue was dropped. The reason being that although mb was not in line with mormon teaching on this subject he was in fact being truthful and what he taught did not undermine mormon beliefs. Even though they disagreed....the message was still the same.
The way he handles it now is kind of cool. He has a corner of the stage that is his. It's HIS corner. When he speaks from the podium or the center of the stage, it is mormon teachings. When he speaks from HIS corner, it is his personal feelings on the matter and they differ from traditional mormon views. When I ask him what he believes on a subject, if he has a differing opinion, he will ask me what I want....mormon viewpoint or his viewpoint.
I can ask him absolutely anything and can be very blunt about it. I even throw way off the wall stuff at him just to see what kind of response he gives me. I told him once that it seemed to me that god was more like satan and satan was more like god. God seems to like to slap the snot out of people whenever they didn't bow down to him yet satan is always willing to accept me with open arms, never judging, never condemning. Satan wants me to have ALL of the pleasures that I desire with no strings attached. Who sounds like more fun and loving? LOL He really liked that one. But, we sat down and had an intelligent discussion. He knows that I don't really believe this. I just use it as a learning tool. He actually likes my method...thinks it helps to give me a better understanding.
We were sitting in my office today and out of the blue I said, " ya' know mb....I hate to say this, but I really think that you have been brainwashed by the mormons....they're misleading you". For a split second he had a shocked look on his face. He then started laughing and we had a good discussion on the subject. He told me that I make talking about the bible fun.
I also asked him about shunning and he said NO. It is excommunication and shunning is not involved. For the excommunicated..no entry into the sacred temple, no partaking of the sacrament, no comments during bible school, no comments during any sermon or bible study. Communication and association is not affected. Mb even has a 15 yr old son who doesn't want to be a mormon and doesn't attend the church at all. According to mb...it is his decision and has no bearing on family or personal relationship. Mb has the crazy idea that shunning would only push him farther away.
Sorry to ramble, but I just felt the need to defend my buddy a little. He is just a very good friend that happens to be a mormon. His choice of religion doesn't matter. He is a friend that I care about and respect.
Thanks for listening.
 
under74
under74 11 years ago

Alone-
I really understand what you're saying. I've known Mormons that were really stonch by the "book of mormon" types and than others that were much more liberal. While there may be things I disagree with about Mormonism I don't think it's exactly like the WTS in that the LDS has become very main stream for the most part...which is why there are groups that have broken off like the FLDS and Church of Christian Heritage.
I know there were some posts on a thread I started that made some unfair comparisons to the WTS. Although I can't very well speak for those that posted...I did start the thread and I hope you aren't too offended. I did enjoy the story about your co-worker's son.
 
Been there
Been there 11 years ago


Maybe you should change your screen name? You aren't alone. Sounds like you have a very good life long friend.......so does he.
Thanks for the insight.
 
AloneinOh
AloneinOh 11 years ago


I know there were some posts on a thread I started that made some unfair comparisons to the WTS. Although I can't very well speak for those that posted...I did start the thread and I hope you aren't too offended. I did enjoy the story about your co-worker's son.
Nooooo, not at at all under74. Not offended. What it did was to cause me to reflect on my feelings, and the way that I also tend to stereotype. 6 months ago if I had bumped into a jw, my instant thought would have been...."Geez...what a friggen brainwashed a-hole".
Now, I try to have a positive view of people in general and try to see a persons good points rather than immediately making a biased opinion based on differeng viewpoints. For me, it's easier said than done.
 
upside/down
upside/down 11 years ago


The guy I learned the "truth" from was just like your Mb.
Still is....
But here I am....
u/d
 
AloneinOh
AloneinOh 11 years ago


As a side note....Mb saw my copy of COC sitting on the corner of my desk at work.He picked it up and read the forward. He even read a couple sentences aloud and then asked if he could read it when I was done. I told him he couldn't have my book, but I had 5 more copies at home if he would like one. He readily accepted my offer. I am taking 2 of them to work today. One for mb and one for a friend that dis-associated himself from the Catholic church due to his own crisis of concience.
It seems that since I started opening up about my past, my friends have started showing their true colors. Real friends that sincerely care about me. It is very uplifting to realize that I really do have some true friends out there. Brings tears to my eyes to finally realize that there are people out there that sincerely care for me. I thought I was alone for soooo long.
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

I've worked with two VERY cool mormon's who sound very much like your friend.
 
PinTail
PinTail 11 years ago


I like the Mormons, they never realy did nothing to bother me, for the most part they are fair with most everone.
When I was hurt real bad from a head trauma it was the Mormons that paid for my month to month needs not the Jehovah's Witness's and I was in good standing with the witness's at the time, the fact is I may seriously check out the Mormons simply because they showed compassion to me..  What the hell, the book of Mormon is about as plausable as anything else. Shane
 
bebu
bebu 11 years ago


Sounds to me like you have a golden friendship!!
I have heard of a prominent Mormon in this region getting hauled over from the SLC leaders, just like your buddy; he also was a professor who had differing views... I can't remember if the issue was archeology or not...
I wouldn't be surprised if your own journey is affecting him on almost the same level. Your conversations will likely become even more interesting... and your friendship even deeper.
bebu
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 11 years ago


AloneinOh,
I'm glad to hear you have such a good friend. Thanks for sharing your experience.
DY
 

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LA TIMES: Losing Faith and Lots More
by AMNESIAN 14 years ago 9 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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AMNESIAN
AMNESIAN 14 years ago


Anyone have any credible notion as to why JWs are never one of the religions mentioned in articles like these that discuss what life becomes for those who leave the fold?
-AMNESIAN
-----------------------------------------------------
Mormons who quit the church find themselves ostracized by friends, co-workers and even families. Annual gathering offers support, shared experiences.
By WILLIAM LOBDELL
Times Staff Writer
December 1 2001
SALT LAKE CITY -- It took 16 months for Suzy Colver and her husband to work up the courage to officially quit the Mormon church, worried about what would befall them once word of their defection spread through their Mormon-dominated town of Ogden, Utah.
They didn't have to wait long. Instantly, Colver said, her family became the neighborhood pariah. She lost every one of her Mormon friends, even though she'd been a leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' prestigious Relief Society. She wasn't asked to volunteer at her kids' elementary school anymore. Her decision was so unspeakable, she said, that when her brother-in-law visited he was afraid to even acknowledge it, despite the coffee maker on the counter and bottle of chardonnay in the refrigerator--both Mormon taboos.
"If Mormons associate with you, they think they will somehow become contaminated and lose their faith too," Colver said. "It's almost as if people who leave the church don't exist." Colver, a 33-year-old mother of three, was among a group of ex-Mormons who gathered here recently to wrestle with problems that plague some who leave the church but remain in Utah and other communities heavily dominated by Mormons: rejection from Mormon spouses, children and relatives; the disappearance of Mormon friends; the end of a social life; a sidetracked career.
How, they asked each other at the inaugural Ex-Mormon General Conference, can you carve out a regular life within the immense shadow of the clannish Mormon church, which claims roughly 70% of Utah residents as members?
"In Utah, the church has created an almost impossible box to climb out of," said Sue Emmett, the 60-year-old great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young. She left the church in 1999.
Tales of ostracism are familiar in other close-knit, conservative religious communities. In some circles of Orthodox Judaism, for example, families will consider a relative who marries outside the faith dead, even observing the Jewish mourning process. Some Latino mothers weep for their sons who turn their back on the Catholic church. And the Amish banish anyone who leaves their faith from their community.
But only in Utah and pockets of neighboring states does a single religion have such a dominant hold over nearly every aspect of society. Which was why Colver, Emmett and about 60 other heretics held their gathering at a symbolic place and time: a block from Salt Lake City's Temple Square, where 21,000 faithful Mormons had flocked to the church's 171st semiannual General Conference. They told stories, often tearfully, of the prejudice they encountered upon leaving.
One recalled volunteering to say grace at a Thanksgiving dinner, only to be stopped by her mother, who said, "You can't. I don't know what you'd say."
Another expressed relief after moving out of state to a non-Mormon neighborhood: "It was so nice to go to the grocery store and know no one's going to look down on you."
A third told of the pain she felt from her grown children, who believe she's been influenced by the devil: "They see me as an enemy, as a heretic and as a threat to their children," she said.
In Mormon country--a strip of states from Montana and Idaho in the north to Arizona in the south--Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints members make up huge majorities in many communities.
The 11-million-member church is one of the fastest growing religious organizations in the world, adding 40% to its membership each decade since 1960, church officials say. The church says it doesn't release the number of Mormons who drop from the rolls.
Church Elder Tad R. Callister said the church recognized its shortcoming when it recently released its "Doctrine of Inclusion," which implores members to better embrace nonmembers--whether people of other religions or former Mormons.
"We're imperfect people . . . [but] we want it to be said that we're the best neighbors in the world," Callister said.
The author of the inclusion doctrine, Elder M. Russell Ballard, acknowledges that he occasionally hears "of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority."
Ballard, a member of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said he's also heard about "narrow-minded parents" who won't let their children play with children who aren't in the church.
"I cannot comprehend why any member of our church would allow these kinds of things to happen," he said.
Most at the conference of ex-Mormons said serious doubts about the faith's authenticity drove them away.
Mormons believe "the one and only true church" of Jesus Christ was restored to the Earth by the prophet Joseph Smith in the 1820s.
A primary source of attack by critics is the Book of Mormon, a sacred text for the church called "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Mormon tradition holds that the angel Moroni--a resurrected ancient American prophet and warrior--led Smith to gold plates buried in a hillside in upstate New York.
Engraved on the plates, Mormons believe, were holy writings by ancient Americans in "reformed Egyptian," a combination of ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphics used by Americans who had first emigrated here from Jerusalem about 600 years before Christ. Viewing the plates through special stones and devices, Smith is said to have deciphered the writings.
"It has no factual basis," said Steve Benson, a Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist with the Arizona Republic and grandson of Mormon prophet Ezra Taft Benson. "Once a crack of truth in the dam emerged, it wasn't long before the whole superstructure broke loose. Soon I was swimming in the intellectual ocean of freedom."
Others, like Colver, say the church's relentless push for volunteer duty drove them away.
Colver, a breast cancer survivor, said the pressure reached a breaking point one Sunday as she lay in bed after another a round of chemotherapy, unable to do much of anything. Even when she needed to vomit, her husband had to sit her up and hold the pan.
She then got three consecutive calls from leaders of her church. They asked her if she was absolutely sure she wanted to give up her post in the Relief Society.
"We just don't want to deprive you of the blessings," they told her.
"There I was, lying in bed--sick, bald, scarred from surgery, and I don't know if I'm going to live or die," Colver recalled. "I told them, 'Go ahead! Deprive away!' "
At turns, the three-day ex-Mormon event resembled a self-help recovery group, an academic seminar, a class reunion and an all-night college party.
The former Mormons, from young adults to seniors, drank coffee and Cokes in the morning and martinis and beer in the evening, and the women wore sleeveless blouses--all against church teaching.
"This is the second year I've had brown shoulders," said Lindy Parsons, a 34-year-old mother of three from Harrisville, Utah, showing off her tan. The first thing she did when she quit the church? "I went down to Victoria's Secret and bought some real underwear."
Humor masked much bitterness. All participants said they'd lost major pieces of their lives after they walked away from the church.
Parsons says her Mormon neighbors--nearly her entire community--shunned her. When her husband had a grand mal seizure, she said, a church official passing by warned a neighbor, "Don't enter that house. The man is possessed by the devil."
Then she stumbled upon the www.exmormon.org Web site, an online gathering spot for former Mormons created in 1995 to fill the social vacuum left after exiting the church. "It's a halfway house for many of us," said cartoonist Benson of the site that now gets 3,000 hits per day and has more than 600 e-mail subscribers.
The Exmormon.org group started holding annual get-togethers a few years ago in Las Vegas--"because it was the anti-Salt Lake City," one organizer said--but decided to get serious this year with a formal conference in the Utah capital.
Because of family ties, jobs, familiarity or just plain stubbornness, many of the former Mormons have decided to stay in hostile territory and try to make friends--or at least live a peaceful life in a parallel universe alongside the church.
"I want to be me and still be respected," said Maxine Hanks, who was excommunicated from the church in 1993 after publishing her book, "Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism." "I'm tired of being seen as an outsider."
Hanks said the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City next year has spurred Mormon officials to rethink their outreach to other faiths, which included the Doctrine of Inclusion.
Critics acknowledge that Mormon leaders have been doing a better job in recent years of promoting inclusiveness. But nearly all of the ex-Mormons at the conference said they'd seen no evidence of it. They said their former ties to the church have put them, in the eyes of Mormons, in a different category than people of other faiths or even atheists. They suspect hurt feelings and a fear of associating with apostates contributed to the shunning.
Santa Clarita resident Gaylon Harrison, 42, said that when she left the church four years ago, her congregation scratched her name from the directory, listing only her husband and three children. She said her Mormon friends passed her in the supermarket without a word.
"They would literally turn their heads," said Harrison, who has since moved to Maryland with her family. "I was ready to say 'Hi.' All they had to do is look."
Harrison said she also had problems within her marriage. She eventually told her Mormon husband that she would no longer share a bed with him unless he stopped wearing his sacred Mormon undergarments, worn day and night by the devout. She wanted a respite from symbolism.
"That church was right there in the bed with us," she complained. He stopped wearing the underwear, and she quit wearing her "Have You Hugged an Apostate Today?" T-shirt.
Though public rhetoric has softened in recent years, Mormons believe that stepping away from the church will have eternal consequences. Ex-Mormons are also excluded from major earthly events such as temple baptisms and weddings, where only members in good standing can set foot.
"My sister couldn't attend some events [at the temple], and it hurts," said Joni Bown, a Salt Lake City Mormon whose sister quit the church. "Yes, I pray for her to come back to something that's so special to us."
Rob Shiveley, 42, thought becoming an ex-Mormon would hurt his career in Utah's computer software industry.
"The conversations on campus and at lunch at my company were all about the Mormon church," said Shiveley, who left the church after landing a new job in Portland, Ore. "The handful of non-Mormons were very much on the outside in the company."
Because business is often conducted informally around church social activity, much the way other cultures conduct it on the golf course, many nonbelieving Mormons haven't come out to their family, friends or co-workers.
Those who keep quiet "don't risk alienation if there isn't an explicit rejection of the religion," said Tim B. Heaton, sociology professor at Brigham Young University.
Many of the apostates still enjoy parts of the Mormon culture, especially the emphasis on family and moral values. "I want to be a Mormon like Woody Allen is a Jew," said one conference participant. "I don't want to be robbed of my Mormonism."
But the all-or-nothing nature of the church leaves many struggling for a new identity.
Because of the strict Mormon lifestyle, many ex-Mormons often experience a kind of delayed adolescence once they leave the church, experimenting with alcohol, drugs and sex.
Christene Carol, 43 and mother of five, said she attempted suicide in 1999 after living "an insanely perfect life" as a Mormon.
She said she has spent the past two years learning to live responsibly without the guidance of the church, though it's been a difficult road at times. She said she overdosed on Ecstasy one night.
"I don't expect the people in the church to understand, and I don't blame anyone," said Carol, a resident of Bountiful, Utah. "I've learned to live an independent life rather than a life of needing or seeking the approval of others."
Maxine Hanks says she and others put up with the "scathing but subtle disapproval" from Mormons in Utah and elsewhere because it's important to "learn how to stay."
"I make a difference here," she says. "I have a social responsibility to stay in the conversation. And we need to create diversity. Without people like us, there is no diversity."
---------------------------------------------------
(edited to repair formatting)
 
Klaus Vollmer
Klaus Vollmer 14 years ago

the letter is also to be found under cover ups
 
gumby
gumby 14 years ago

Mormons unlike the witnesess, believe that you can be saved without being a mormon. They however believe that in the next life you will be taught the true way...which is their way.
 This being the case.....why should they shun those who leave their church? Go figure!
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


Amnesian ask:

Anyone have any credible notion as to why JWs are never one of the religions mentioned in articles like these that discuss what life becomes for those who leave the fold?
#############
this is an excellent question- about 2 years ago when i was on H20 this same discussion came up and the comments very interesting>
being that most of us are aware of the org and how things work and jw in general- this type of article only high lights another lie that wt tells is members and they believe
and that is: THAT JW ARE MAJOR PLAYERS ON THE WORLD SCENE
outside of the fact that to most folks they only know jw as:
1. folks who wake them up on sat am
2 no blood
3 no holidays
and after that they know very little-
i'm sure most recall the wonderful RESOLUTIONS WE USE TO ADOPT
at the District Convention against the churches ., gov and big biz
yet I never saw one article about : JW have announced that they are adopting a resolution about the kingdom of god striking against them
do you all recall about 5yrs ago we had the special talk at the local hall and they had these tracts with stamps on the box indicating NOT TO BE OPEN EXCEPT BY ELDERS AFTER THE TALK and then after the talk we all got our allotment and went rushing out into the territory to
quickly passs them out like the end would be kicking in within HOURS
that was over 5 or 6 yrs ago
it is so sad how the wt makes the avg jw feel and think that they are actually on the mind of major religions like the catholic church and gov officals, beyond the fact that they don't provide any kind of support for it headquarters staff anywhere in the world..
so to address WHY jw are never mentioned ----in my view we were all lead to have a false sense of how important we as jw actually were
even now i think that some who have left still fail to realize that a jw are a little virtually unknown group that lets thier kids die
consider how much we talked about the kingdome and yet the avg person has no idea in He!! what the main message is of JW.
i see some here get really excited over things like the UN and even child sexual abuse- but i really believe that after the issue is discussed by NONJW around the cooler for a day or so they will be back to Michael Jordan should he have retired or not
while many of us including myself to a certain extent will be like
don't you nonjw understand that this UN stuff is major stuff for this religion--
don't you nonjw understand the impact of the jw changing major dogmas like the FDS are not needed to run the org , but non- annointed can now do the job and on and on the list will go
I guess the bottom line is JW are such NONPLAYERS on the world scene it "AIN'T" even funny
just my 2
james
"The best way to convince a fool that he is wrong, is to let him have his own way."---Josh Billings
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


Amnesian ask:

Anyone have any credible notion as to why JWs are never one of the religions mentioned in articles like these that discuss what life becomes for those who leave the fold?
#############
this is an excellent question- about 2 years ago when i was on H20 this same discussion came up and the comments very interesting>
being that most of us are aware of the org and how things work and jw in general- this type of article only high lights another lie that wt tells is members and they believe
and that is: THAT JW ARE MAJOR PLAYERS ON THE WORLD SCENE
outside of the fact that to most folks they only know jw as:
1. folks who wake them up on sat am
2 no blood
3 no holidays
and after that they know very little-
i'm sure most recall the wonderful RESOLUTIONS WE USE TO ADOPT
at the District Convention against the churches ., gov and big biz
yet I never saw one article about : JW have announced that they are adopting a resolution about the kingdom of god striking against them
do you all recall about 5yrs ago we had the special talk at the local hall and they had these tracts with stamps on the box indicating NOT TO BE OPEN EXCEPT BY ELDERS AFTER THE TALK and then after the talk we all got our allotment and went rushing out into the territory to
quickly passs them out like the end would be kicking in within HOURS
that was over 5 or 6 yrs ago
it is so sad how the wt makes the avg jw feel and think that they are actually on the mind of major religions like the catholic church and gov officals, beyond the fact that they don't provide any kind of support for it headquarters staff anywhere in the world..
so to address WHY jw are never mentioned ----in my view we were all lead to have a false sense of how important we as jw actually were
even now i think that some who have left still fail to realize that a jw are a little virtually unknown group that lets thier kids die
consider how much we talked about the kingdome and yet the avg person has no idea in He!! what the main message is of JW.
i see some here get really excited over things like the UN and even child sexual abuse- but i really believe that after the issue is discussed by NONJW around the cooler for a day or so they will be back to Michael Jordan should he have retired or not
while many of us including myself to a certain extent will be like
don't you nonjw understand that this UN stuff is major stuff for this religion--
don't you nonjw understand the impact of the jw changing major dogmas like the FDS are not needed to run the org , but non- annointed can now do the job and on and on the list will go
I guess the bottom line is JW are such NONPLAYERS on the world scene it "AIN'T" even funny
just my 2
james
"The best way to convince a fool that he is wrong, is to let him have his own way."---Josh Billings
 
patio34
patio34 14 years ago


Hi JT,
I agree with you so much. When I first left, I went into a Christian book store, looking for some anti-JW stuff. Guess what? There was not one book or pamphlet I could find. It seemed that JWs were non-existent to them.
It is amazing how different the JW and WTS mindset is: David against Goliath and winning too! What a joke. . .
Cheers!
Pat
 
LoneWolf
LoneWolf 14 years ago


Well, this is only a hunch, but usually my hunches are fairly close.
The reason that few are interested about the plight of the ex-JW's is that there is such a reservoir of resentment the Society has built up in the world's eyes, what with all the door-to-door work, resolutions, court cases, self-righteous claiming of God's favor, etc, etc, that anyone that has even been a part of it is tainted. The organization has been so belligerant that most people take a look at this tempest and shrug their shoulders, figuring that we all deserve each other.
View it like this: If the ACLU suddenly had a bad schism after all their combativeness, etc., wouldn't it be fun to just stand back and watch them slug it out?
One thing I know as an absolute fact: I called the F.B.I. office in Medford, Oregon looking for some more information on a donnybrook involving the WTBTS and a family named Hansen. The agent told me point blank: "Whatever you do, don't get involved with either party!"
Figured I'd add two more cents.
LoneWolf
 
teejay
teejay 14 years ago


AMNESIAN,
Very interesting article. It's sad that people of many walks of life suffer hardships due to their exercise of free expression, whether it's related to "god", "worship" or whatever. ExJWs aren't the only victims of religious prejudice.
One thing I must say that I found heartwarming about the church leadership:
Church Elder Tad R. Callister said the church recognized its shortcoming when it recently released its "Doctrine of Inclusion," which implores members to better embrace nonmembers--whether people of other religions or former Mormons.
"We're imperfect people . . . [but] we want it to be said that we're the best neighbors in the world," Callister said.
The author of the inclusion doctrine, Elder M. Russell Ballard, acknowledges that he occasionally hears "of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority."
Ballard, a member of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said he's also heard about "narrow-minded parents" who won't let their children play with children who aren't in the church.
"I cannot comprehend why any member of our church would allow these kinds of things to happen," he said.

It's the leadership that has taken the lead in not only noting the damage that is done to people, but being proactive toward its own members who may be guilty.
I like that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
patio34
When I first left, I went into a Christian book store, looking for some anti-JW stuff. Guess what? There was not one book or pamphlet I could find. It seemed that JWs were non-existent to them.
It's not that way around here!! There are several Christian bookstores, one in particular that's on my way home, that have sections on "Cults." They have several books and pamphlets that highlight the cultic nature of JW-ism. During my period of research, I bought several but not nearly all they had.
Nowadays its surely different! All you need is a pc and Internet access (or a library card). The truth about the truth is at your fingertips, free of charge.
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


pat says:
It is amazing how different the JW and WTS mindset is: David against Goliath and winning too! What a joke.
#######
that is why as a jw we always thought the boogie man was out to get us
smile

Lone wolf says:
that anyone that has even been a part of it is tainted. The organization has been so belligerant that most people take a look at this tempest and shrug their shoulders, figuring that we all deserve each other.
######
good point- since most folks have no reference of being part of a church were you cannot question Rev Neckbone -
to look at you i have heard many say
"Why didn't you just get the hell out if you didn't like the services"
and they are correct from thier prospective cause i work with many folks who have had fallout with thier church left to join another
the kicker is THEY HAD NO SANTIONS LAID AGAINST THEM by family or friends who may still attend that church unlike jw
you lose your entire SUPPPORT SYSTEM
since you were never allowed to have friends outside the org
most folks have friends on thier job, clubs they may be long to - folks up street etc
where as with us as jw our only source of friends were other jw
lose those folks and you are left with nothing
so for most nonjw they simply have no idea of the implications of being involved with jw or any other high control group
great post my man
 
DannyBear
DannyBear 14 years ago


Amnesian,
All religions seem to share a common bond. Somewhere, sometime, some special guy received special attention from god or one of his agents.
Moses the father of Judaisim..got stone tablets from god.
Muhammed got a visit from the angel Gabriel father of Islam.
Jesus got holy spirit poured on him..father of Christianity.
Confucius simple 'common sense' applied while other's were daffy..fathered the basis for Confuncianism, Taosim, etc.
Joseph Smith gets unreadable gold tablets from the angel Moroni, that only he can interpret...father of the Mormon's.
Charles Taze Russell while studying the bible, see's all kinds of types and anti-types to what he reads, discovers a few heretofore ignored passages of the bible, and starts his own new religion, under the guise of not being THE 'faithful and discreet slave'...but never really made much effort to refute it either. Wrote prolific books and articles.....the father of Jehovah's Witnesses.
L. Ron Hubbard simply had an imaginative mind. An excellent science fiction writer, before ever being considered the founder of Scientology...he had to die first, but he was the founder none the less. Still is running the whole show, according to many believer's.
With the tract record man has compliled, regarding these special guy's who somehow, get more attention from Higher Intellegence (thks Julie), god, Vishnu, Allah, jehovah, you would think that people would be less gullible, less inclined to buy the package?
Nope, millions, just like our former selves, wave all good common sense and reasoning power's.....bend down on supple knee's and ask forgiveness for all the poor heretic sod's, who do not believe in the 'truth' like us saved and sanctified ones.
The question always remains the same, WHOSE TRUTH are you refering to?
DannyBear
 

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Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons in Major Turf Wars!
by Atlantis 10 years ago 13 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Atlantis
Atlantis 10 years ago


JWD is [not] responsible for other pictures found at web site! http://www.meltingclocktimes.com/turfwars.htm   Breaking News! Friday, December 3, 2004! Jehovah Witnesses & Mormons In Major Turf Wars Over Door to Door Trafficking
alt
Missionaries like these are causing havoc across the country.

Both the Mormon and Jehovah Witness religions are growing and it was inevitable that the two groups would clash on the streets. It's getting ugly out there. Turf battles are erupting between Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. Police in several cities across the nation have had to break up brawls between the two religious sects.
Wilma Butercup, an agnostic from Helena, Montana, thought she had a problem just shooing the proselytizers away. Last Monday right when a group of Jehovah Witnesses approached Butercup's door she saw Mormons coming up her front steps from the other direction. A major brawl erupted with each group yelling at each other and tossing flower pots. Butercup called the cops, but major damage already occurred before police broke up the fight. Garden flowers were uprooted and the place was strewn over with torn Watchtower pages and Mormon pamphlets.
“It's getting bad out here,” says San Diego resident Jimbo Doebert. “The kids can't even go out and play safely anymore.” San Diego is a hotbed of missionary activity. Police are advising residents to be on the look out for well dressed young men in suits and ties carrying brief cases.
Police in Seattle reported a major Jehovah Witness-Mormon brawl Wednesday. Witnesses say a group of well dressed Jehovah Witnesses were walking down the street when a group of well dressed Mormons came up the street from the other direction.
Apparently a Mormon yelled out to the Jehovah Witnesses, “You Jehovah Witnesses stick your feet in people's doors! Enough of your strong arm or strong foot tactics!”
“How dare you accuse us of being impolite!” yelled back a well dressed older Jehovah Witness woman.
The yelling intensified and witnesses say that before you knew it Jehovah Witnesses were clobbering the Mormons on the head with rolled up copies of the Watchtower.
“If you don't stop hitting me with that Watchtower magazine,” yelled a burley young Mormon to an older Jehovah Witness woman, “I might have to force you to stop and it won't be my fault if you get injured.”
“I have no fear. I will sustain any injury in defense of Jehovah!”
“You may get hurt and require a blood transfusion,” yelled back a Mormon.
“No!” Fear came over the face of the Jehovah Witness woman, “Anything but that! How dare you! I have a coffee thermos here. Stand back!”
The group of Mormon young men jumped back as the woman flashed her thermos at them.
The police arrived and when the melee cleared Justin Tinglesub, a Mormon missionary from Provo Utah, lay agonizing on the ground yelling, “Help me! Help me! Some of that coffee got into my nose and mouth! Help! Get an ambulance!” His white shirt was stained brown with coffee.
Elma Fintstoneup, a elderly Jehovah Witness missionary, after tossing her coffee and losing her balance also was on the ground. “I'm sorry I lost my temper, but those young men are cult members!”
“You guys are the cult!” snapped back a Mormon.
“Calm down here!” said a cop. He looked at the elderly lady and said, “You look OK, but you should have a doctor look you over.”
“No! Keep away any doctors. They might give me a blood transfusion!”
“I just hope this problem doesn't get worse,” says New York police Sargent Gilmore McClodsky. “We're already overworked. But like other police departments across the country we're keeping an eye on dangerous religious literature wielding sect members.”
 
geevee
geevee 10 years ago

Is this for real? Once we had to compete with the Salvation Army. They had trumpets, and were going into houses as we were. In the end I stopped our group and we headed for the coffee shop...no that's right, we all went on RV's.....
 
technics1200
technics1200 10 years ago

spoof
 
Mysterious
Mysterious 10 years ago

I remember leaving several territories early simply for the very fact that we didnt want to compete with whatever door to door canvassing was going on. Girl guides, school chocolates, poppy sellers, political campaigners..
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 10 years ago


That is so hilarious, though obviously a spoof. If it were real, I'd pay to see it. I love this line:
"Help me! Help me! Some of that coffee got into my nose and mouth"
Unfortunately, the Mormons are a bit thin on the ground in this area, so it couldn't happen, still, ona can dream lol
 
Atlantis
Atlantis 10 years ago


I admit that I did get a laugh out of it when I saw the article. For some reason this web site seems to be bringing up articles that were posted a year ago about this same time period. Perhaps the events are re-occurring somewhere!
Cheers!
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 10 years ago

If I had to pick I'd pick the mormons, their missionaries are cuter
 
Jordan
Jordan 10 years ago

LMAO! I was expecting something along the lines of a Mormon vs Witness drive-by-shooting...
 
Frog
Frog 10 years ago

I find this pretty hard to believe??...but it did make for amusing reading;) All that talk about it not being safe for the kids to go out on to the streets, lol! The only thing they're in danger of is a serious bible bashing! frog x
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


LOL that was funny  ...would of been good if it was real  I'd wondered what it be like if Mormans and JW's ever met up in the same street.....

Evanescence
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 10 years ago


Too funny!!
No, it's pure spoof! As for what would happen if they were working the same block, well, it happens a lot. My missionary sons (LDS) used to make a point of inviting any JWs encountered to have lunch at a restaurant with them. No JWs ever took them up on it, but would simply turn and run. They wouldn't even stand a chat a while. Never even said, "No thanks, but have a good day!" or something similar, like most normal people would. What's up with that?
My sons felt the JWs were cold and hostile. Not the way to make friends and influence people. Maybe JWs need to work on their people skills?

Susan
 
nilfun
nilfun 10 years ago


For some reason, this thread reminds me of West Side Story...
When you're a JW, let them do what they can
You've got brothers around, you're a family man!
You're never alone, you're never disconnected!
You're home with your own -- when company's expected
You're well protected!
Then you are set with a capital J
Which you'll never forget till they cart you away...
 
young hearts, be free..
young hearts, be free.. 10 years ago


This is great!!!
It was a bit like that for us growing up, my Dad has 4 brothers and 2 sisters.....now, 1 brother is a JW (since the 70's), 1 sister is a JW (disfellowshipped but still attending), 1 sister is a devout Mormon, another brother was a member of the Church of God (another strange denomination).....the rest are sane.
The discussions and disagreements that went on were so funny, just imagine how they felt when my Mormon auntie's daughter married a 'faded' son of JW's !!!!!
The dub ones were pretty tight-lipped and embarrased about that, but still found satisfaction in that my Mormon-raised cousins joined the Army......
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


Maybe we should lock Qcmbr and Defd into a room together....
Evanescence
 

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Mormon's rent Kingdom Hall
by DevonMcBride 12 years ago 12 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw friends
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DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 12 years ago

http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/198134p-171112c.html
It seems the Mormon's are having the same recruiting problems as the JW's.


It's hard-knock life

Mormons bring message to Manhattan
By RYAN BLITSTEIN
DAILY NEWS WRITER

Young missionaries gather outside new $10 million Mormon temple at 65th St. and Columbus Ave. 

Garrett Reden, dressed in a coat and tie, knocks on the door of an upper West Side apartment. It opens a few inches until the chain-lock catches and an elderly woman peers through.
"Hello. We're missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Reden, 19, tells her, "and we want to share a message with you."
"No, no, no," the woman says, motioning him away.
"All right," he tells her, "have a great day." He and companion Jeff Hildebrandt, 20, then head to the next apartment.
"We really are excited about this message; it's something that means so much to us," Hildebrandt says later. "But it's hard when you talk to a thousand people a day; you've been turned down a thousand times - you get frustrated."
In its 175th year, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormon Church, has 12 million members worldwide. Yet while its 60,000 missionaries have been successful recruiting in foreign countries, they have struggled to find new members in the U.S.
But not so in New York, where membership has increased 38% over the past 10 years. This month, the church celebrated the opening of a new, $10 million temple near Lincoln Center.
Joseph Smith organized the Mormon Church in Fayette, N.Y., in 1830, and the New York City mission, established in 1839, was one of the first. Religious persecution eventually forced Smith and his followers to settle in Utah.
To the outsider, the missionary life is as regimented as boot camp. Missionaries rise at 6:30 a.m., spend the day visiting apartment buildings and homes, setting up meeting tables on the street, teaching lessons to potential converts and, after planning for the next day, get into bed by 10:30.
"We don't date, watch TV, go to the movies or plays," says Hildebrandt, who isn't allowed to listen to music other than the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and classical selections - not even his own CDs. "We're 100% focused on this. It's kind of like a break from reality."
Because it includes locales as diverse as upscale Stamford, Conn., and the poverty-stricken South Bronx, this mission is one of the most challenging for its young workers, even compared with far-off Third World locales.
It is hard enough to convert Americans, with their high level of religious and secular educations, but misconceptions spawned by the Internet have made it even more difficult, Hildebrandt said.
He has had people tell him the church is a cult and that they sacrifice animals. One woman in the Bronx even said she was afraid of live snakes and coffins that she'd heard were part of the baptism ceremony.
On the upper West Side, missionaries might be able to find one person to teach a 45-minute lesson to per week, and baptisms are rare. But the budding Harlem branch of the mission has 10 to 15 sitdown lessons and one baptism into the church every week. And the Jehovah's Witness chamber hall the church rented a few years ago is filled during services.
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 12 years ago

The WTS leased out a building to the Mormons??????????
Can this be verified? I'd be very very interested.
 
zev
zev 12 years ago

not the first.

in Fall River Massachusettes in the late 90's we sold our KH to the LDS so we could build one not on the hills and so dangerous to get to in the winter, and have more parking.
so they built it on a parade route.
dummys. someone didn't do all their homework.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 12 years ago

And we thought JWs weren't ecumenical!
 
Mary
Mary 12 years ago

It is hard enough to convert Americans, with their high level of religious and secular educations, but misconceptions spawned by the Internet have made it even more difficult
LMAO! Isn't that typical of a cult. All the information available to people now via the Internet is all considered "misconceptions", no doubt by "apostates" of the Moron Church. Why am I getting de ja vu suddenly???
 
Deleted
Deleted 12 years ago

That's really weird. My Mormon/KH story is quite different. Many years ago, while we we Borg, my son had a friend whose Dad was the bishop of the local LDS ward at that time. Dan's friend was a nice little kid, there weren't a lot of choices for local pals and me being liberal, even then, it was fine. We were going to do a remodel of the KH and I asked the LDS bishop if their church, about 200 yds away was connected to the city sewer system. It was, they had dug the 1/4 mile to get connected themselves. I asked if we could connect to them. Fine was the response. The Estacada Oregon KH was on a septic tank. and still is. I told our PO this and he steamed back "we will have nothing to do with those people". And that was that.
 
Blueblades
Blueblades 12 years ago

Two years ago the Elders had rented a Muslim hall to celebrate the Memorial.The Muslim used the place for all kinds of events, parties, weddings, etc. Still we would not attend a Memorial in a Muslim Hall that was also used for their religious services.
Blueblades
 
Nosferatu
Nosferatu 12 years ago

So much for "Jehovah's house".
 
blondie
blondie 12 years ago

In its 175th year, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormon Church, has 12 million members worldwide. Yet while its 60,000 missionaries have been successful recruiting in foreign countries, they have struggled to find new members in the U.S.

But not so in New York, where membership has increased 38% over the past 10 years. This month, the church celebrated the opening of a new, $10 million temple near Lincoln Center.
How can that be in the heart of FDS/GB territory!!!!!
Actually, the congregation in one area rented space from the VFW and the Oddfellows. I can remember them saying that the flag was in the corner at every meeting. There is nothing wrong around here in selling a KH to a another religious group, one recently to Muslims and another to a Baptist Church. Money is money whether it is a lump sum or a montly payment.
Ecumenical would mean that the would be holding the meetings together, worshiping together.
Of course, these rules like any other in the WTS are not applied equally in all areas.
 
DaCheech
DaCheech 12 years ago

I asked my father-in-law why we can rent VFW halls for memorial & gathering (when this money goes to
people that served in war), but cannot contribute stuff to salvation army or go to the YMCA!
Hypocrites
 
badboy
badboy 12 years ago

WHAT THIS!
MAKING A DEAL WITH BABYLON THE GREAT?
 
metatron
metatron 12 years ago

It's not that remarkable. Kingdom Halls often get sold to other churches. Like the Godfather said, it's nothing personal,
just business.

metatron
 
tazmaniac
tazmaniac 12 years ago

MORONS?....ohhh...Mormons....I thought you said Morons.....the morons left only to rent to more morons ?? LOL
 

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I could have been a Mormon!
by Zico 9 years ago 9 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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Zico
Zico 9 years ago

During my childhood, my Father would often tell stories of his life to me, one of his favourites being the story of how he became a Jehovah's Witness.
During some travels in the late 70s, he had his first real experience with the bible, when he shared a room with a Christian Fundy in Israel. The Fundy introduced him to many bible topics, such as the king of the North and Babylon the Great. I believe the final King of the North according to this fundy was Jimmy Carter, and Babylon the Great was the Catholics. Upon meeting, the guy insisted that there were only 7 months left till the end of the world, he had worked it out from the bible. 7 months later, the world was still here. My Dad denies ever believing this guy, I don't know if this is true (since he continued to share a room with him!) but it still set him on a search for 'bible truth'
Upon his return to the UK, in the early 80s, and unable to understand the bible, he prayed to God to reveal the Truth to him, and lo and behold, the very next day, who called at his door? Why, Jehovah's Witnesses of course! It couldn't be a coincidence, surely? He had found 'The Truth'!
Now, I work with a Mormon, and today, whilst he was talking about his religion, out of interest, I chose to ask him 'What made you become a Mormon?' his response brought back my Father's story to my memory 'Well, I wanted to know if there really was a God, so I prayed to him, to reveal himself to me and prove his existence, and the very next day, some Mormons called at my door, God must have sent them.' On hearing this, I told him that my Father was a Jehovah's Witness, and he had an IDENTICAL story, he prayed for Truth, and the Jehovah's Witnesses called on his door. My Mormon colleague was literally speechless, he had no idea how to respond, and after a short while he even admitted that he didn't know what to say to this.
So, it really was a coincidence! God hadn't sent the Jehovah's Witnesses to my father's door, just like he hadn't sent the Mormons to my work colleague's door, he couldn't have sent two, seperate, 'true' religions. If the Jehovah's Witnesses were directed to my Father's door, why didn't Jehovah send the Jehovah's Witnesses to my work colleague's door before the Mormons got there?
Perhaps then, millions of people constantly pray for Truth, and since the JWs call on so many people, it really is a coincidence that they sometimes call on these people! And I guess then, that if the Mormons had called on my Father's door that night instead, I'd be trying to escape the Mormon cult now! Funny how things work out, isn't it?
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

I had mentioned before that my Mom had been praying, while on the beach in Mississippi. Within several minutes a carload of JW's pulled up and asked her if she needed any help. She thanked them but said no. The ironic thing about this is my Mom is disfellowshipped, and back then we were taught that Jehovah didnt even hear her prayers, let alone answer them.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

You'd probably find it easier
 
Zico
Zico 9 years ago

'You'd probably find it easier'
 
Zico
Zico 9 years ago

'You'd probably find it easier'
I'd probably find it easier not to have been brought up in a cult at all.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

It's like how Dubbies confidently attribute someone being disturbed in the act of commiting suicide by JW's on the doors and listening to a message of hope as angelic direction. They ignore all the people who DID commit suicide because no one called, or those disturbed by a Mormon, Encyclopedia Britanica Sales man, etc., who thereafter never get round to the deed. Or that as they DO go round randomly knocking on doors, just as they will frequently distrub sex (coz it happens lots), they will infrequently disturb suicide.
Idiots.
 
Carmel
Carmel 9 years ago

Cause and effect traps are constantly surrounding us in all walks of life. The "black cat" fear is simply people having a bad experiance soon after crossing paths with pussy negra. Same with breaking a mirror or walking under a ladder. Too bad we want to connect dots that are not associated with each other but sadly, that is the way humans tend to abuse science. One anecdotal reference and we're ready to sign our lives over to some silly notion. carmel
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 9 years ago

For some reason, there were a lot of "God answered my prayers"-type experiences from the platform tonight. They all detailed someone who'd been praying earnestly and then were immediately contacted by JWs.
I felt like saying, "But other religions all have this sort of experience." I decided not to stir the pot.
 
esw1966
esw1966 9 years ago

I know that as I was leaving the jw's I wanted to know that leaving was the RIGHT thing to do. I was familiar with stories like yours so I prayed that if jw's WERE the true religion and that He wanted me to BE a jw that He would send a jw to my home or that I would SEE one.
I never did.........
I took that as a sign.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

'You'd probably find it easier..to get out' - I really should finish my sentences.
 

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Comparison of Mormonism and JWism
by alex 15 years ago 32 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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alex
alex 15 years ago


I'm thinking that the mind-control games are very very very very much the same between Mormonism and JWism. I've lurked here for a while and thought I'd introduce myself.
My name is Alex and I'm an unbelieving Mormon who lives in Utah. I used to be very active. I served a 2 year mission. I was a Bishop's counselor and I know the organization very well and several friends of mine have fathers who are in the Mormon equivalent of the "Governing Body". Then about 15 months ago I discovered that the Book of Mormon is fiction and that unraveled my faith. I then discovered many other issues which also didn't make any sense except to say that Mormonism is a manmade organization. Now I consider Mormonism to be a dangerous mind-controlling organization and I want to get out. But for the moment I'm a closet doubter until I have the courage to break free from the chains of Mormonism.
I would like to find out what you all think and how your organization is structured because you exJWs have such a similar story to us exMormons. How did we all get stuck in a mind-controlling organization? Fortunately I'm still young and able to break away. Its got to be hard on those who are much older.
If you ever have any questions about the real scoop on Mormonism but you don't want to offend Mormon friends, co-workers or the missionaries then please let me know. All of my family is still in the religion and its been very difficult for me. They believe that I have rejected God and that I'll be damned because I've given in to Satan. I still try to live a good life but they'll never accept this as long as I don't once again become a true believer in Mormonism.
I'm curious to know how the JW organization is organized. I see alot of abbreviations I don't understand. What is the Borg? Bethel? GB? CO? DC? DFed? etc.
I'm confident that I can pretty much get you answers to any questions you might have in Mormonism. I was just as much into it as all of you seem to have been in JWism so I hope you'd consider me a reliable source of information. But I wouldn't blame you if you don't trust me. I have a hard time trusting anybody now that I've gotten informed that my religious leaders were liars. I'm glad for the internet message board at exmormon.org because those people there really helped me get through this difficult journey. The Mormon church leadership is scared about the Internet because it allows for members to communicate with each other about their real questions since the Church makes it very uncomfortable for members to ask any questions.
 
Gopher
Gopher 15 years ago


Alex,
Hello and thanks for posting. My only exposure to Mormons was when I went to a Witness convention held in Salt Lake City in 1974. Our family took a tour of the Mormon tabernacle, I can't remember why. But I do remember how unusually friendly people were as we walked through the city.
I was, you could say, born into the JW organization, and left last year at age 39. I thought it was the "only true way" to God. Our exposure to other belief systems was always in a negative context.
To answer some of your questions: What is the Borg? Bethel? GB? CO? DC? DFed? etc.
The Borg is the nickname we "outsiders" give to the organization of the Watch Tower Society, headquartered in Brooklyn, New York. Borg = Brooklyn org.
Bethel = Any of the many branch offices around the world where volunteers live to support the printing work and the oversight of the work JW's do in various places around the world. There are slightly over 100 branch offices of the WTS worldwide.
GB = The Governing Body, the supreme decision-making council of Jehovah's Witnesses.
CO = Circuit Overseer, a travelling representative of the WTS whose area usually encompasses about 20 congregations. They visit each congregation about twice per year to share in the door to door ministry with the locals, to give talks, to help with congregational matters, and to make sure the local congregation is doing things the way the central WTS wants them to.
DC = District Convention. Held once per year in hundreds of locations around the globe, usually in the summertime, this 3-day congress of the Witnesses is a long set of talks, demonstrations, skits, singing. Through the convention, the organization tries to instruct and encourage the JW's.
DF = Disfellowshipping, the JW way of excommunication. If "serious" wrongdoing is reported to the elders, a committee of 3 elders will meet in secret with the individual to try to determine the wrongdoing and to try to set the sinner straight, or so they say. It can be for violating Bible law, or for having or discussing doubts about JW doctrine. The DF'ing penalty is very harsh, for every JW is expected to shun the disfellowshipped one. Even close family will treat the DF'd one quite differently. If a baptized JW no longer wants to be a Witness, they can disassociate (DA) themselves by writing a letter to the body of elders in their congregation.
Hope some of this helps. There is a lot to know about this group and their rules and regulations.
Feel free to post more, ask more questions. Welcome to our board.

GopherEven if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
 Will Rogers (1879-1935) 
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


(some of this is also posted on philo's thread)
Welcome, Alex.
The Borg: I always thought we said that because the dubs are so much like the Borg, on Star Trek the next generation.  You know, a continuem, of mindless robots, going through the motions of life. But, I see the connection with what Gopher said too. "Brooklyn Org."
About a year after I left the JW's, I went to work at a scrapbook store, owned and run by a Mormon family. Most of the employees were also Mormons, and about 8 months into my job, I quit, realizing I would never really be accepted there, and anything that went wrong had to be MY fault because it couldn't be one of their own. I just got sick of being blamed for things I hadn't done, and "kissing the owner's butt" everytime she walked into the store.
Anyway, shortly after I started there, they found out I was an ex JW, and were all very interested in what had happened. They were licking their chops, I'm sure, thinking I would now join them. I assured them I was NOT looking for another place to go, but they kept at me. I would stress things that I knew they believed too, as being reasons for my leaving, like "they are the only true religion" and other things.
I learned during that time, that they do drink caffeinated beverages, like Coke, and Mr. Pibb, and that coffee, the EVIL drink, has "many other bad things in it than just caffeine." I had to stifle a laugh. I asked about missionaries and why those 19 year old guys are called Elders. Not a satisfactory answer.
At this time, there are two Mormon missionaries living next door to my cousin, in an nice apartment building. I see them arriving home quite often, and they are really nice young boys. They drive a very nice car, with bicycles on the back. I about died laughing the first time I saw that. They are obviously fellows with rich family, but still have to give the impression of being poor, by using the bikes.
It's all nonsense. All religions are the same, with different weirdness in each. But all ultimately have the same ends, I think. The people can be good, and they can be crummy. It's the hearts that matter.
Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
 
alex
alex 15 years ago


Thanks for the info.
OK so the BORG is headquartered in Brooklyn, NY. Who are the members of the Governing Board? How does someone become a member of the Governing Board? Elected? Chosen by the GB themselves? Who are the members? Where can I read their biographies?
How are the 100 Bethels organized? Can I find a list of them online?
How many circuit overseers? Are they paid full-time workers? part-time slaves? How are they chosen? What is their relation to the branch offices? Do you have branch office overseers?
What do you call your congregations? We call them Wards in Mormonism and they usually have 600-800 members and they are headed up by three men called the Bishopric (a bishop and his 2 counselors). Who presides over the congregations? A group of Elders? How are they chosen?
What does a person have to do to become an Elder, Pioneer, CO or member of the GB? Rank is so important in Mormonism. My family thought so much of me when I became a Bishop's counselor at age 27. They thought that surely I'd rise up in the ranks of Mormon leadership. But alas I learned the truth and really don't plan on living a lie my whole life.
Don't get me wrong. Mormons are good people generally. Don't take my word on my criticisms of their faith. Find out for yourself. I say this because there still is a little fear in me that I'll burn in hell for speaking bad things about the Mormon leaders since I used to firmly believe that they were God's official witnesses on earth. I still have this little fear in me that "Rejecting Mormonism"="Rejecting God" and its hard to describe how painful such an idea can be.
 
Gopher
Gopher 15 years ago


Alex,
Here's a link to biographical information about the Governing Body. There has been a reorganization in the last year, resulting in the Governing Body losing almost all their power. It's a little difficult for me to explain, maybe someone else can explain it better. Anyhow, here's the link: * http://geocities.com/osarsif/gb.htm
I don't have time right now to answer all your questions, but I'll take on your questions about the congregations. They are simply called congregations, and the buildings where JW's gather are Kingdom Halls. Each congregation has a body of elders. New elders are appointed after being recommended by the local body of elders in conjunction with the travelling (circuit) overseer. The organization tries to keep the congregations under 150 members in size. Of course there are many small-town congregations with as few as 20 members.
I believe what you say about Mormons being good people. I found my visit to Salt Lake City very pleasant. Some aspects of the Mormon doctrine have been scrutinized and criticized in Watchtower literature, so we have had some exposure to some aspects of LDS doctrine.
You expressed the idea that rejecting one's former faith leads to anxiety about whether God approves of you or not. This is something a lot of us have had to deal with upon leaving JW's as well. The indoctrination and fear-based approaches are similar between the two groups. After a while many of us have come to the realization that if there is a God, he would not be so unreasonable as to force us to believe a bunch of nonsense or else condemn us! It's better to remove oneself from the nonsense, and then sometimes one's relationship with God (if they choose to cultivate one) is even better than before.
GopherEven if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
 Will Rogers (1879-1935) 
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


Hello 'yall.
Check this out... http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
 
seven006
seven006 15 years ago


Hi Alex,
I'm the exJW guy (Dave) who popped into the exMorman site yesterday and received a hearty welcome.
The people on that board are great. I posted there because I noticed from a little reading the similarities
in the psychological fallout resulting from leaving both religions. The ex-Jws have a higher price to pay
for leaving because of the shunning of all family members and friends that they had while in the religion.
I see by the few boards that I participate on that the ex-Jws also show a lot more anger in relation to
the position the religion puts them in because of the virtual kidnapping of family and friends. It is
like a reverse prison sentence, they view us as the religious criminals and they lock up our loved ones
to protect them from us.
In both religions the fuel that keeps the motor running is complete obedience by the way of total mind control.
The psychological damage resulting in one who opens their eyes and becomes honest with themselves thus rejecting a life long belief system
is similar in both religions. The teachings themselves are miles apart but the process in which each gain control of their
members hearts, minds, and souls are very similar. As long as you give any organization or group the power to control your
perception of happiness in relation to what is proper and improper behavior you will never have the self-reliance to question rules
that will open your eyes to the dangerous teachings.
The bible which is the main rule book for most cults is interpreted in as many ways as it is translated. Being a book that is
subject to individual interpretation it becomes the secret weapon to destroy any and all personal thought outside the religion that professes to
have the absolute correct interpretation of its content. I see this tactic being used in both religions. Because of this little trick, the outcome
in the way of seeing life after using your own brain to reject such teaching results in similar feelings and experiences.
exMormans and ex-Jws have a lot in common in relation to life after religion. I can see in may instances where both groups
could benefit from mutual discussions and exchange of feelings and experiences. I look at it as we have both jumped out of different
windows of the same sinking ship. I think the mindsets are pretty much the same, "we got duped". If we can help each other and make a few new friends along the way then it makes the decision we made a lot easier to deal with. Especially since we don't have to share our coke's and Pepsi's with you guys.
If you stick around this site I think you will find it a lot rowdier than the exMormans site. There are more cowboys and indians on this site
and a good portion of the time they don't play nice. It makes for some good "R" rated entertainment.
Nice to meet you Alex and I hope you get all your questions answered. I myself hate talking about the JW details, I come here for the laughs.
Dave
 
JUSTAMOM
JUSTAMOM 15 years ago


Hello and welcome
Yes I too was raised in the Wt all my life with my husband and siblings. I did a little research on the net after coming out cause I too saw such great similarities.
The mormon church was founded basically by a young man, Joseph Smith.
He was given a divine revelation by an angel who chose to speak to him and told him he was to be used persay to help with the gathering of the true church in the time of the end. Although he was not to start a religion and organize. Well that didn't work.
They use the book of Mormons with the bible but I've heard (may be wrong) that the book actually takes precedent over bible at times.
They believe in disfellowshipping (shunning/excommunicating) but only real bad stuff. ANd someone who leves that church after being raised in it usually becomes shunned and viewed as turning over to the dark side. lol
Exactly as the JWs.....
Charles Russell as 26 year old man was interested in pure bible truth. His intention was not to set up an earthly organization (HA)
Uses the WT as food at the proper time and banks on its teachings even over the bible. (even though they deny this)
If you have been raised a JW and leave the 'true' church you are an apostate and therefore, disfellowshipped and shunned. Given over to the dark side because you have left God by disagreeing with the men upstairs and the literature they produce.
Very mind controlling cult. On the outside they look as though they produce GOOD strong families and values. Honest citizens. A true brotherhood.
For some that their hearts are sincere, they are trying to live this way for God although the guilt of NEVER measuring up always stares you in the face.
Many others KNOW they are never going to be good enough so they look one way on the outside and practice deceit and hypocrisy in the dark. As long as the elders don't catch you at anything, it doesn't matter what God sees. Fear and guilt are the main ingredients to keeping these poor people enslaved.
AND IT WORKS!
30's enslaved in the WT. Set free 3 1/2 years ago by my lord. NOW I don't have to slave for two masters. The Wt and Jehovah...
My lord is my master. It is HIS work I want to accomplish.
Christian love
JUST A MOM (Kim)
 
claudia
claudia 15 years ago

Alex, I have mormons coming to vistit me tomorrow again, can you give me some questions to ask them? Is there a secret handshake? thanks in advance
 
alex
alex 15 years ago


You may not make sense on this whole suggestion list but I guarantee you that the following steps are a sure program for getting honest mormon missionaries to seriously reconsider their faith. Had somebody really done a good job like this I would have saved myself years and tens of thousands of dollars of tithes and not gotten into a marriage where I'd eventually be an unbeliever married to a believer.
(A) Ask them to read the following from their Gospel Principles manual chapter 31 on Honesty verbatim:
Complete honesty is necessary for our salvation. An Apostle of the Lord has said: "Honesty is a principle of salvation in the kingdom of God. … Just as no man or woman can be saved without baptism, so no one can be saved without honesty" (Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, Oct. 1971, p. 63; or Ensign, Dec. 1971, p. 72). God is honest and just in all things (see Alma 7:20). We too must be honest in all things to become like him. The brother of Jared testified, "Yea, Lord, I know that thou … art a God of truth, and canst not lie" (Ether 3:12). In contrast, the devil is a liar. In fact, he is the father of lies (see 2 Nephi 9:9). "Those who choose to cheat and lie and deceive and misrepresent become his slaves" (Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, Oct. 1971, p. 65; or Ensign, Dec. 1971, p. 73). Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when he was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest. The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, "Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this" (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage. People use many excuses for being dishonest. People lie to protect themselves and to have others think well of them. Some excuse themselves for stealing, thinking they deserve what they took, intend to return it, or need it more than the owner. Some cheat to get better grades in school or because "everyone else does it" or to get even. These excuses and many more are given as reasons for dishonesty. To the Lord, there are no acceptable reasons. President Kimball taught that when we excuse ourselves, we cheat ourselves and the Spirit of God ceases to be with us. We become more and more unrighteous. (See Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 234.) To become completely honest, we must look carefully at our lives. If there are ways in which we are being even the least bit dishonest, we should repent of them immediately. When we are completely honest, we cannot be corrupted. We are true to every trust, duty, agreement, or covenant, even if it costs us money, friends, or our lives. Then we can face the Lord, ourselves, and others without shame. President Joseph F. Smith counseled, "Let every man’s life be so that his character will bear the closest inspection, and that it may be seen as an open book, so that we will have nothing to shrink from or be ashamed of" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 252). http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/Curriculum/home%20and%20family.htm/gospel%20principles.htm/3-unit00050/honesty%20chapter%2031.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0 (Gospel Principles, 1997, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Chapter 31)
B) Tell the missionaries that your research into the Book of Mormon has uncovered the following issues:
1) Latter-day prophets and scripture have clearly taught that the Book of Mormon is an actual historical record (in other words – its not fictional like the "Chronicles of Narnia" or "Star Wars") even though its primary purpose is supposed to be spiritual in nature.
2) Latter-day prophets and scripture have clearly taught that the Native Americans are predominantly Hebrew in origins and the literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Father Lehi (an actual man who migrated to the Americas from the land of Jerusalem approximately 2600 years ago).
3) Latter-day prophets and scripture have clearly taught that the Book of Mormon Lamanite/Nephite people were a large group or civilization that covered a large portion of the Americas.
4) The Book of Mormon and Latter-day prophets have clearly taught that when Father Lehi arrived in the Americas that there were no other significant groups of people here except for perhaps the Jaredites who were soon extinct.
5) DNA studies have become very accepted in the scientific community for determining the historical migrations and origins of mankind. In fact scientists at BYU are now successfully using DNA evidence to help carry forward the Church’s mission to do genealogy work and redeem the dead.
6) The DNA evidence strongly suggests significant differences between the DNA markers of known Hebrew groups with those of primarily Mongolian/Siberian groups.
7) DNA studies have been used in very recent times to show that there are specific genetic markers (i.e. minor genetic mutations) that Hebrew people have which are not found in other groups of people and that DNA evidence has been used by groups in the reaches of Africa and Asia to prove that they are indeed of Hebrew origins. In these cases the leaders and experts in Israel have changed their opinions and welcomed these groups to immigrate into Israel as "blood brothers/sisters".
8) The DNA evidence strongly suggests that no significant (or even minor) group of Native Americans have been found who have the unique genetic markers found in the DNA of the known Hebrew groups.
9) The DNA evidence strongly suggests that the Native Americans and Mongolian/Siberian groups are closely related and supports the long-held theories in linguistics, anthropology, archaeology and other sciences that the Native Americans primarily descendants of migrants from the Mongolian/Siberian region of Asia.
10) Even though the evidence is very strong its important to remember that research in DNA and Genetics is still progressing and it may still be too soon to draw firm conclusions.
11) The predominantly accepted theory of LDS scholars and apologists is that the "Book of Mormon" people were only a very small group and were in a very small area geographically and that nobody seriously has ever taught that they were ever a large group or large civilization that covered a large portion of the Americas.
12) Another popular theory of many LDS scholars and apologists is that the group of Lehi who were of Hebrew descent arrived in the Americas approx. 600 BC and merged in with the natives who were of Mongolian descent and that’s how the principal ancestors of the Natives were of Hebrew origins even though the scientific evidence shows that they are Mongolian.
13) A much less popular theory of LDS scholars and apologists is that the scientists are actually wrong and that future research will show that the Natives are indeed descendants of Hebrews. Most of the scholars and apologists in the Church who know about the scientific evidences accept what the scientists are finding and ignore the theories that the Native Americans’ principal ancestors were a large civilization who were of Hebrew origins.
14) The Church claims that its true IF and ONLY IF the Book of Mormon is true.
If the missionaries ask how you compiled this list. Tell them you got it off of the Internet from a member of a Stake Presidency who is currently still in just for the sake of family but has read the Book of Mormon about 23 times. I can get you plenty of evidence to backup the following statements and tell the missionaries that they better.
(C) Remind the missionaries what their own Missionary Guide says:
There are many useful tools available to help missionaries (whether they are Full-Time, Stake, or Members) in their callings. One of the most important tools produced by the Church in recent times is the Missionary Guide, 1988 edition. Most Missions and all of the Missionary Training Centers require their full-time missionaries to study the Missionary Guide principles and skills on a daily basis so its safe to assume that the skills listed here from the Missionary Guide are in line with the thinking of the leaders of the Church. A few conclusions that are important to remember for this document are:
Testify of what you teach (rather than off on a tangent)
Maintain an equal relationship and don’t sound better than they are.
Be simple, clear, direct and use words that investigators will understand.
The Spirit testifies of truth so tell the truth in order to have the Spirit which matters the most.
Show those you teach that you are genuinely concerned and sincerely care.
Restate or summarize in your own words what they say to see if you understood them correctly.
Pause after you ask a question to let others gather their thoughts and express their feelings.
Be careful to not jump to conclusions.
Try to understand the thoughts and feelings of others.
Ask questions that help them share their feelings and beliefs to find out if they understand a principle.
Don’t ask ‘yes’/’no’ questions when finding out if someone understands a principle.
Don’t ask manipulative questions designed to make the investigator give the answer you want.
Ask questions that maintain an equal relationship between you and them.
Ask questions that show you respect what they have to say.
Sincerely try to find out their feelings and concerns.
Do not make them feel that you are interrogating them.
"Find Out" skills are important to help them discuss their feelings and prepare them to feel the Spirit.
Empathy is the ability to put yourself in another’s situation and share his thoughts and feelings.
Empathy is also looking at things from the other’s point of view rather than yours.
In showing empathy, you must mean what you say.
Expressing empathy that you do not really feel offends people and does more harm than good.
You are responsible to help others resolve their concerns.
People may hesitate to share their concerns.
Your attitude will often determine whether or not people will share their concerns.
one of your biggest challenges will be finding out what their concerns are.
Show that you care for others by listening to them and showing that you understand them.
Let them know that the concern has not damaged your relationship.
Missionaries often wrongly feel that they need to resolve concerns by bearing testimony or by sharing experiences, scriptures, and examples.
In many situations, however, the best way to resolve concerns is to simply help others discover their own solutions.
Tell them that you are confident he will make the right decisions.
Be able to explain unfamiliar ideas to others and help them discover what they need to do to resolve their concerns.
One of your most important responsibilities as a missionary is to help others identify and resolve their concerns.
D) Let the missionaries know there are several other issues that you have concerns about and that your concerns need to be resolved.
1) Translation of the Book of Abraham facsimiles
2) Plagiarism from Masonry in Endowment
3) Polygamy in Nauvoo, 1835 D&C 101, Breaking Illinois Polygamy Laws
4) Plagiarism from Shakespeare and Anglican Church in Book of Mormon
5) Kinderhook Plates
6) MMM
There are others but this is a good start. If you do a good job you may save 2 missionaries alot of heartache in life from devoting themselves to a false cause. Good luck and let me know if I can be of additional assistance.
 
rodnico
rodnico 15 years ago

Alex-
It is funny but I have never thought about the similarities between the two organizations. I was raised in Utah. I lived in Ogden, and was a regular pioneer all over northern Utah. Because I was one of the few non-Mormon kids at school it had a strange affect of strengthening a faith.
When my family first moved to Utah to serve where the need was great (there were few witnesses in the area) my mother began to read anti-Mormon apostate literature. She researched the church she used to say "I don't know how someone could believe this", and then she just stopped. I remember someone asking her why she stopped and she never really gave a decent answer. Now looking at this post I wonder if she saw the similarities and it shook her faith????
This is interesting to me now I think I will do more research.
Thanks for the post Alex.
Nicole
 
mommy
mommy 15 years ago


Alex,
Welcome! I really enjoyed your post. I had a few young men coming to my house for awhile. It was after I left the Jw "We are the chosen ones, everyone else will die" stage. After the pentacostal "God loves everyone and it is easy to get saved" stage. Somewhere between the "if there is a god, he would want us united" stage. But way after the I can worship god on my own stage. Of course now, I am in the "I can't believe it's not butter stage"
Gee, so many religions so little time Amazing how similar we all really are
Great to have you and thanks for the long thought out post. I love people who give of themselves to help others. I call this the "humanity" stage. I don't think I ever left that in all of my different stages. This seems to work the best for me.
wendy
In a controversy the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
 
philo
philo 15 years ago


Here's some of the church hierarchy, hopefully others with HQ experience can fill in the higher levels.
 Congregation
Elders are overseers of different departments. The presiding overseer or PO chairs every committee and is in overall responsibility. Generally, he is not a boss man, because decisions are made by committees, but a politically astute PO can more easily rule the roost than other elders. Elders are made by being voted (I think unanimously) by the other elders in a secret session. All elders meetings are secret.
Ministerial Servants are just sub-elders doing less spiritual matters, small speeches, perhaps shepherding the flock. Usually one handles literature accounts, another money collections…
Publishers are men and women, and kids (if active on door-door and approved of). This is 'drone' level. They report their preaching hours on form every month. This is compiled by congregation and sent to the Branch, then Brooklyn (supranational HQ)
 Circuit
City overseer is the travelling circuit overseer's mailman, he also helps co-ordinate assemblies for the circuit.
Circuit overseer (travelling). These men used to all be single, now they are virtually all married. They manage about 20 congs (that's maybe 800-2000+ people depending on area) . He gives pep talks, door-door demonstrations. Behind the scenes he handles the elders, rubber stamps their new appointments usually - not always. He will have contacts at the Bethel branch office (National HQ) and must report on all the congregations. Some COs are political lightweights, pussy cats, some are serious Rutherf…..rs
 District
The district overseer manages a few circuits (does anyone know the average number??). From a publisher's eye view, this man is a public performer who only appears at assemblies and addresses thousands, only to disappear until next year. I believe his responsibilities have as much to do with Branch HQ departments as with his district. When a tricky apostate matters comes up, a CO and DO are often despatched 'for a chat'. In my locality, two such men arrived unannounced at a congregation meeting once, just got onto the platform and announced that the congregation was dissolved, not the meeting - the congregation! So these guys are major ball crackers.
 Bethel Elder
(From here on it gets really hazy for me.)
This is not just a congregation elder who happens to work at Bethel. He is of a very much higher class. Help, Maximus! Or other Bethel insiders, can you fill in some detail.?
 
claudia
claudia 15 years ago

Alex, thanks a bunch for the info, and do you know anything about a secret handshake?
 
philo
philo 15 years ago


claudia, you're being a bit mischeivous I think. Good one! Susan[here] would probably not entirely approve.
philo
 
claudia
claudia 15 years ago

Philo, I really thought there was a secret handshake as mentioned in a thread a few weeks earlier
 
RedhorseWoman
RedhorseWoman 15 years ago


Alex, thank you for posting all of this information. I was slightly familiar with Mormonism because my nephew had joined the Mormons for a short time (about 2 years).
I was quite surprised, however, to realize exactly how close we all are as far as dealing with the control techniques, and coping with the fear after we've left.
Most ex-JWs go through the same process of worrying that they have somehow condemned, not only themselves, but also their minor children to death by leaving the JWs.
I can assure you that those feelings eventually subside. Gaining knowledge and discussing your feelings with others helps the process along.
Glad you could join us.
 
Erin
Erin 15 years ago

Alex--you said to ask, so I am asking.
What is the big secret about what goes on at a wedding in the Morman Temple? Something about re-enacting "original sin"?
What about babies which are conceived as a result of this? Are they considered especially holy babies because the father is a priest of high ranking?
Please forgive my ignorance, but there are lots of rumors circulating about Temple weddings!
Thanks in advance for your input!
 
alex
alex 15 years ago


Nothing really weird happens in temple weddings at all. The groom and bride dress up in the white temple robes (over the bride's wedding dress if her dress is modest) and everyone else is in sunday dress clothes. They all go into a sealing room which is usually a luxuriously furnished room where 30-80 people can sit and it has an altar (just a big huge piece of furniture about 3 feet tall and 4 feet wide shaped like an upside down "U" with cushions on each side to kneel. A temple worker called the SEALER performs the ceremony but usually first gives about 15-20 minutes of advice about marriage. The couple then holds hands over the altar during the 1-2 minute ceremony as the sealer bestows blessings on them that their marriage will last forever in the eyes of God if they are faithful and the Sealer also pronounces them as married according to the laws where the temple is physically located. After the ceremony is finished the newlywed couple is usually invited to do their rings exchange and then to stand near the exit door so they can greet their guests as they exit the room to go through the halls of the temple and out of the building to join the photographer and the rest of family and relatives who weren't worthy to enter the temple. Meanwhile once the sealing room is empty the newlyweds then go to the changing rooms to get out of their temple robes and get all spruced up to exit the temple doors as husband/wife and get all the family pictures at the temple done.
I think its the temple robes and the 60 second ceremony wordings/grip that are considered sacred and not to be discussed. Personally I think that the reason why temple grips are considered secret by members is not because of any divine reason but because of the fear of oaths the members take to not reveal them and thus the fact that these grips are plagiarism of Masonic grips is not discussed.
 
alex
alex 15 years ago


I still am fearful to discuss specifics of Mormon temples personally.
But I'd recommend that you lookup online to find out what the Masonic grips are for 3 levels - Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason. Ask your LDS friends to goto http://www.telepath.com/believer/page-l.htm and learn about the Masons.
 

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Comparison of Mormonism and JWism
by alex 15 years ago 32 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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julien
julien 15 years ago


Alex
wasn't there a deal where when the BoM was being translated chapter by chapter someone took one of the chapters and didn't give it back.. Later Joseph Smith was unable to reproduce the chapter (this was what the person who took it wanted to demonstrate) and it was paraphrased in the final BoM.
Also I heard that there were sections in the BoM that were taken verbatim from the KJV, including mistranslations or mistakes in the KJV..
any truth to these?
Julien
 
Marilyn
Marilyn 15 years ago


Hi I'm an exjw of many years. I have recently been in discussions with a Mormon lady from Utah, who's been trying to help me to know her God. In the end she asked me to meditate quietly for an hour each day and try to tune into God in order to get a response from him. She's been pretty careful to avoid commenting on Satan or other weird stuff (I spose there is plenty of time for that later) - but I was interested that she thinks I'll get divine inspiration by meditating and praying. I told her I couldn't do it as it represented surrender - and relinguishing control of my mind. I don't really know what happens when you do this, but I presume self delusion sets in and you start imagining all kinds of stuff.
I'm really interested to hear about the Mormons and what they believe. For some reason I always thought they were more harmless than JWs. Maybe not?
Marilyn
 
Preston
Preston 15 years ago

Hi Alex, I just saw your post and I wanted to point out that here in Arizona a LDS politician (State Rep. Jeff Flake) has been raising eybrows over proposing a law that would do away with standardized jail sentences in Arizona. His statements run parallel to his calling for the release of a 78 year-old child molester (Daniel F. Walsh) who was a friend in his LDS church. Many have called his defense sincere, misguided, and wrong. By speaking out against standardized jail sentances and by asking a judge to keep the molester out of prison Flake has garnered just enough bad publicity to put a dark cloud over the rest of his career. His actions are an insult to our system of justice.
 
Preston
Preston 15 years ago

BTW, Alex, you mentioned in your list of topics of concern to discuss with Mormon missionaries that MMM would be a good topic. Is this a refernce to the Mountain Medows Massacre? Id this really a topic that many Mormons know about. I've known about it for a long time.
 
alex
alex 15 years ago


This board of yours has an evil flaw. I answered all your questions with a very long response, lots of good quotes, etc. Then I hit "Reply to Topic" and your Jehovah God screwed everything up. I got some message that my password was bad and the message was sent to the Armaggedon of cyberspace and destroyed.
Actually I'd highly recommend the site www.lds-mormon.com for a critical view on Mormonism or www.mormons.org for an apologist view. The LDS church scriptures are also available online at scriptures.lds.org so that any of you can check out the various references that come up. Its suffice to say that the foundation of Mormonism rests on whether or not the Book of Mormon really is a record of the dealings of God with the ancestors of the American Indians and whether these Indians really are Israelite descendants. Any other issue just doesn't have that same impact on making/breaking the case on Mormonism.
 
philo
philo 15 years ago


alex,
I recommend you ctrl'a'+ctrl'c' prior to posting. Are you following the higher hierarchy thread?
philo
 
jelly
jelly 15 years ago


Hello Alex,
I am from a town in Northern California with a large Mormon population; the town’s population is about 5K and we have two large Mormon Temples. While I think the Mormon’s do have some similarities to the Witnesses in Organizational structure, really that’s where the similarities end.
For example:
Before I became a JW, I had dated several different Mormon girls, with their parent’s approval; a JW parent would never let that happen.
Mormons go to college. If any criticism can be made here it is that the Mormon religion is focused on personal achievement and money too much.
Most Mormons are normal people that you could have a conversation with that doesn’t revolve around religion.
Mormons are different. A Mormon from Utah tends to be much more strict than one from California and Texas. Witlesses have such a strong social pressure placed on them to conform that witness are the same all over.
I lived with a Mormon girl that had moved out of her parent’s home at 18 years of age. Her church elders called her in to chat with her and she told them that she no longer wanted to be a Mormon; she was actually rude to them. The Mormons were still very polite to her and did not shun her in any way; this is a complete opposite of what the JW clergy and congregation would have done.
So in conclusion, Mormons have some similarities to Witnesses; Mormons however do not attempt to control every aspect of their congregation’s life, from association to education. In my view Mormons are just a strict and somewhat irritating religion but it does not achieve the cult status that the WTBS has earned.
P.S. I realize however that there are differences between Utah Mormons and California Mormons. It is quite possible that Utah Mormons might approach a cult like organization, however since my only experience is with California Mormons I can only comment on their behavior.
Jelly (Used to be smooth with the mormon girls class)
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 13 years ago


Hi, Alex,
We've chatted a few times in Q and A, so I know your story and I was wondering how long it would be before you started posting here. Welcome!
Yes, you have a hard row to hoe since you've made up your own mind about the Church, want to leave, but have all those good LDS relatives you don't want to alienate yourself from, including your wife. Tough decisions are ahead of you. While we don't shun as the JWs do, there is no doubt how hurt your family will be if you pursue your present course. They will never stop loving you, but they also will never stop trying to pursuade you to return. I wonder and have asked this before...To whom have you gone with your doubts, to hear the other side (the Church's side) explained again in ways that now might make more sense to you?
It just slays me that you put so much emphasis on the DNA evidence. Please find the National Geographic that I have seen others suggest you read...the one with the world map of DNA tracking which showed one group of American Indians to have the exact DNA the BOM would require them to have. The National Geographic itself put a tiny comment under that one group that you would find most interesting. I don't remember the exact month, but it was within the past 6 months, and I may still have that issue and can be more specific later. At any rate, to put such an emphasis on one point of doctrine has the effect of making it a "gospel hobby" which tends to distort other, equally or even more important points of doctrine. Moderation in all things, Brother.
I appreciate your simple clarification of the Temple question. Amazing how many people (outsiders) want to turn the Temple experience into something perverted and sexual -- WHICH IT IS NOT!!!! It has always amazed me how some people can take the words "sacred ordinance" and somehow make it seem like it just must secretly mean "sexual activity". I guess that shows the condition of their own minds that they insist on thinking such thoughts, because it sure isn't a part of our Temple ceremonies!
I don't appreciate, however, your instructions to destroy the faith of the young missionaries. If people don't care to join, fine. Let them say so. Let the Elders move on and find those who are truly seeking and interested. But it is wrong to intentionally set out to destroy the faith of another person, no matter what their religion is. That is wrong. If they ask about your faith, tell them. But don't tear down their religion. That is between them and God. Your experiences are your own. Let them find their own way.
You said you were called to Bishopric and now Stake Presidency? Opportunities abound for you to discuss your concerns with those who are in position to know and are spiritually in tune enough to help you find your way, whatever that may be. It sure can't be easy living a double life. Good luck to you in your journey.
Susan
 
link
link 13 years ago


Susan,
Perhaps I am not the only one wondering what a fully fledged Mormon is doing with 111 posts on a discussion board used mainly by apostate Jehovahs Witnesses. Are you hoping to get leads for converts or are you just lurking on behalf of others?
I thought that JWs were bad enough but you have dished out enough emotional blackmail to Alex to give him a lifetimes guilt complex.
In that respect at least, you Mormons are not a lot different to the JWs are you?.
link
 
gumby
gumby 13 years ago


SIMILARITIES?
Joseph smith was 15 when God first impelled him
Charlie Russell was 18
Both of the idiots believed that the true message was lost shortly after the apostles died....that God HID the message untill the late 18th cetury when God decided it was DUE TIME to get the message out.....the TRUE MESSAGE.
If anyone is dumb enough to believe this shit.....more power to them. I was dumb enough. I believed it for 41 years. Now it all seems so simple...that being....it's all a bunch of horseshit.
I hope this helps.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 13 years ago


Hi, Link,
Nice to meet you. No, I am neither lurking on behalf of others nor looking for converts. Read my past postings and you'll see that I do neither. Is it paranoia that makes people ask that so often?
Actually, I have JW family members I care about deeply. I come here to understand better where they are coming from in what they say and do with regards to my family, to me, and especially regarding our LDS beliefs and lifestyle. This board has been most helpful in clarifying matters for me as questions come up which I know from experience I'm better off not asking JW family members about.
As for "guilting" Alex...Where? Mormons aren't into guilt trips. Any guilting was unintentional, except perhaps for voicing my strong beliefs on the "let everyone find his own way" regarding setting out to unChurch the missionaries. That wasn't intended to be guilt-producing either, but just the facts of the matter. I apply that to my JW family members, too. They are happy as they are, so I leave them alone with their beliefs and won't try to convert them away. I WILL answer whatever they ask about my faith, but that's as far as it goes. Maybe I was just using my "Mom" voice with Alex!
Hope this helps!
Susan
 
link
link 13 years ago


Hi Susan,
Thanks for responding. I'm sorry that so many have asked you these same questions. I think that this just shows how unusual your actions are. I don't think that it shows paranoia on anybodys part.
You said:
Yes, you have a hard row to hoe since you've made up your own mind about the Church, want to leave, but have all those good LDS relatives you don't want to alienate yourself from, including your wife. Tough decisions are ahead of you. While we don't shun as the JWs do, there is no doubt how hurt your family will be if you pursue your present course.
I just wonder how many ex JWs have heard words to this effect and how many others here see this as an attempt to set up a guilt trip for someone in a very vulnerable position.
If you think that alienating your wife and upsetting your family don't qualify, I'd hate to really upset you!
link
 
gumby
gumby 13 years ago


Marylyn,
For some reason I always thought they were more harmless than JWs. Maybe not?
All cults are harmful in one way or another. The fact they are based on man should tell a person plenty. I hope you are interested for the right purpose and not because your LOOKING. Please don't make the same mistake twice. I trust you are above that.
 

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Topic Summary
i'm thinking that the mind-control games are very very very very much the same between mormonism and jwism.
i've lurked here for a while and thought i'd introduce myself.
my name is alex and i'm an unbelieving mormon who lives in utah.



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Dealing with other versions of "the truth" ?
by man in black 5 years ago 2 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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man in black
man in black 5 years ago

My wife and I left the jw religion about two years ago. My reason was seeing the non-existent "brotherly love" in action when my Mom died.
Her reason was much the same after seeing how cold the witnesses can be, but she felt that she had outgrown the witness belief system.
So she bacame a mormon !
I have nothing to do with her beliefs, but once in a while I will attend a social gathering with her new friends.
Personally, I am in a search mode, looking closely at the religion I was raised in before becoming a jw.
She on the other hand has no problem jumping from one mind controlling group over to another..

I have made it very clear that I will never become a mormon, or have no intrest in studying their beliefs and mainly her friends have given me a wide berth whenever religion creeps into the conversations.
But last week it seems like I had a complete change.
There was a farewell party for a young couple from the church that were moving across country for a new job. It was held at someone's house and there must have been upwards of 50 + people there. Suddenly I felt like I was an unbeliever in the middle of a group of witnesses. You see, I was the only one present who was not a member of the mormon church. I noticed the same attitudes, and cliques just like the jw's,,,,, only I was on the receiving end this time.
How in the world do I deal with this .
The whole mormon belief system just fractures my thought process everytime I think about it,( baptism of the dead, polygamy in heaven, unreal some of the things they actually believe as fact)
Christmas is coming and certain ones seem to try the old witness trick of becoming my friend, and hopefully I will show an interest in the religion, but when I don't they just vanish.
 
Ding
Ding 5 years ago

Tell them "Merry Christmas" but "no thanks" on becoming a Mormon.
 
WingCommander
WingCommander 5 years ago

Yeah, I used to think JW beliefs were whacky, then I read up on Mormons and then Scientology. Nuts!!!!! Seriously, the JW beliefs are actually quite "tame" when compared to those other 2 cults.
It's quite funny though, we have a poster on here who's an X-Mormom and they post on here and another forum for X-Mormoms. They've stated many times how similar the stories are of treatment, history, beliefs, shunning, etc, etc are. It's like crossing into some sort of similar, but not quite the same parallel universe. Even some of the X-Mormon forums are set up like this one.
Weird to say the least, but it really solidifies the fact that these "American Cults" are so similar in tactics used, etc.
- Wing Commander
 

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Belief-O-Matic says I'm a Mormon
by rocketman 12 years ago 28 Replies latest 12 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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rocketman
rocketman 12 years ago

I took the "Belief-O-Matic" survey at Beliefnet yesterday, and it looks like I am a Mormon.
The survey matches your beliefs on various matters to the creeds of the world's religions and assigns a percentage. I was 100% Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints. Next up was Jehovah's Witnesses, whose creeds I matched to the 82nd percentile. That's no surprise, since I am a baptized (though inactive) Witness and have been for 31 years.
When I looked at the link to Mormon beliefs, I found them to be somewhat strange in several respects and certainly not a body of teaching that I would subscribe to. So I retook the survey.
Next time around, I decided to click on the responses that I really felt, rather than what I simply acknowledged could be true. For example, in the matter of homosexuality, though there are certain Bible verses that can be used to condemn the practice, I personally am somewhat more accepting of it.
The second survey pegged me as Liberal to Moderate Protestant. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons were much further down on the list. That seems to be a better fit, though I'm not about to run to the nearest Lutheran church. But, when a religion shows some degree of flexibility and an openness to other possibilities (such as evolution theory) I am more inclined in that direction.....at least I think I am. Who knows, maybe I'm a Mormon after all.
www.beliefnet.com
 
Max Divergent
Max Divergent 12 years ago

Well, I'm OK... I think...


1.  Unitarian Universalism (100%) 

2. Secular Humanism (98%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (89%) 4. Liberal Quakers (87%) 5. Nontheist (79%) 6. Theravada Buddhism (74%) 7. Neo-Pagan (73%) 8. Bahá'í Faith (66%) 9. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (58%) 10. Taoism (58%) 11. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (54%) 12. Reform Judaism (52%) 13. New Age (51%) 14. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (43%) 15. New Thought (43%) 16. Orthodox Quaker (37%) 17. Sikhism (37%) 18. Mahayana Buddhism (36%) 19. Scientology (36%) 20. Jehovah's Witness (28%) 21. Eastern Orthodox (19%) 22. Islam (19%) 23. Jainism (19%) 24. Orthodox Judaism (19%) 25. Roman Catholic (19%) 26. Seventh Day Adventist (15%) 27. Hinduism (7%) 
 
Cicatrix
Cicatrix 12 years ago

Every time I take these quizzes, Jehovah's Witness ends up at the bottom. I was involved with the Witnesses for twenty years. What WAS I thinking, lol!
I came up with
1. Unitarian Universalist
2. Secular Humanism
3. Liberal Quaker
4. Neo-Pagan
No real big surprises here.
 
Fe2O3Girl
Fe2O3Girl 12 years ago

I like these quizzes. Here's my results:

1. Unitarian Universalism (100%) 2. Secular Humanism (99%) 3. Liberal Quakers (90%) 4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (86%) ??.. 25. Roman Catholic (20%) 26. Seventh Day Adventist (19%) 27. Jehovah's Witness (15%)


I want to know which question and response gave me a 15% JW rating.
Does the frequency that UU is top of the list with 100% mean that any and all of the responses are compatible with UU teachings or accepted viewpoints?

Edited because pasting in from BeliefOMatic seems to do something horrible to the page here. Edited again because aaaaagggghhhh it is getting worse!!!!
 
Fleur
Fleur 12 years ago

edited, reposted below. on my screen at least, it came out all weird.
maybe that's the Universe's way of telling me not to post on this thread? LOL
 
ohiocowboy
ohiocowboy 12 years ago

1.  Unitarian Universalism (100%) 
2.  Liberal Quakers (89%) 3.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (86%) 4.  Secular Humanism (85%) 5.  Theravada Buddhism (82%) 6.  Neo-Pagan (71%)
Sounds pretty good to me..........
 
NeonMadman
NeonMadman 12 years ago

I find it a bit scary that "Liberal Quakers" are only 2% off from "Mahayana Buddhists"...
 
Scully
Scully 12 years ago

1.  Reform Judaism (100%) 
2.  Liberal Quakers (84%) 3.  Unitarian Universalism (84%) 4.  Sikhism (83%) 5.  Orthodox Judaism (82%) 6.  Islam (80%) 7.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (76%) 8.  Bahá'í Faith (76%) 9.  Orthodox Quaker (71%) 10.  Neo-Pagan (65%) 11.  Scientology (62%) 12.  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (58%) 13.  Mahayana Buddhism (58%) 14.  New Age (57%) 15.  New Thought (57%) 16.  Secular Humanism (56%) 17.  Jainism (55%) 18.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (55%) 19.  Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (48%) 20.  Theravada Buddhism (48%) 21.  Seventh Day Adventist (48%) 22.  Eastern Orthodox (43%) 23.  Roman Catholic (43%) 24.  Taoism (41%) 25.  Hinduism (39%) 26.  Jehovah's Witness (39%) 27.  Nontheist (35%) 
 
Fleur
Fleur 12 years ago

wow, i haven't looked at that/taken that quiz in a couple years! how fascinating to re-take it now that i'm SO different than I was when i first found these forums in 2000!
my results now:
 1.  Mahayana Buddhism (100%) 

2.  Liberal Quakers (98%) 
3.  Unitarian Universalism (96%) 
4.  Neo-Pagan (94%) 
5.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (91%) 
6.  New Age (88%) 
7.  Theravada Buddhism (86%) 
8.  Taoism (79%) 
9.  Bahá'í Faith (73%) 
10.  Hinduism (70%) 
11.  Jainism (64%) 
12.  Orthodox Quaker (64%) 
13.  Secular Humanism (64%) 
14.  Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (63%) 
15.  Sikhism (61%) 
16.  New Thought (59%) 
17.  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (57%) 
18.  Reform Judaism (53%) 
19.  Scientology (47%) 
20.  Jehovah's Witness (42%) 
21.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (42%) 
22.  Nontheist (40%) 
23.  Seventh Day Adventist (40%) 
24.  Orthodox Judaism (35%) 
25.  Eastern Orthodox (26%) 
26.  Islam (26%) 
27.
how on earth i got 42 percentile still with jw's is totally beyond me, the beliefs i truly hold and what i checked off have NO agreement with JW views, well, only one but that's like a total coincedence!
what the heck is this disclaimer though?
Warning: Belief-O-Matic? assumes no legal liability for the ultimate fate of your soul.

they can't be serious! LOL no, wait, i guess they are. it's a CYA world, isn't it? reminds me of this (and why can't i turn my quote thingy off?
Happy Fun Ball
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It's Happy Fun Ball!
(announcer)
Yes, it's Happy Fun Ball,
the toy sensation
that's sweeping the nation.
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Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, which if exposed due to rupture
should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
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Discontinue use of Happy Fun Ball if any of the following occurs:
* Itching
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* Tingling in extremities
* Loss of balance or coordination
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If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter
and cover head.
Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be returned to its special container
and kept under refrigeration.
Failure to do so relieves the makers of Happy Fun Ball, Wacky Products
Incorporated, and its parent company, Global Chemical Unlimited, of
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Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an unknown glowing substance which
fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.
Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is
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Happy Fun Ball! Accept no substitutes!

remember kids, Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball!

"

NeonMadman Re: Belief-O-Matic says I'm a Mormon 
 I find it a bit scary that "Liberal Quakers" are only 2% off from "Mahayana Buddhists"...

"
you're not the only one, madman! and worse, when i took it a second time the results flopped, i got 100 percent liberal quaker but i read it and was like huh? this doesn't fit.
isn't there like a 'salad bar' catagory, build your own belief system? *sigh* that's where I am. i don't agree with anybody entirely, guess that's why organized religion is over for me.
my post looks really bizarre before, all out of order. will go back and edit the first one out if i can, weird.
fleur
 

Roman Catholic (26%)



 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 12 years ago

 
1.  Nintendology (100%) 
 
 
minimus
minimus 12 years ago

I'm 100 % Reformed Jew!
 
blondie
blondie 12 years ago

Reform Judaism (100%)
Sikhism (100%)
Is this possible?
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 12 years ago

1.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 
2.  Liberal Quakers (95%) 3.  Unitarian Universalism (88%) 4.  Orthodox Quaker (85%) 5.  Mahayana Buddhism (77%) 6.  Bahá'í Faith (76%) 7.  Theravada Buddhism (75%) 8.  New Age (72%) 9.  Reform Judaism (72%) 10.  Neo-Pagan (69%) 
 
XQsThaiPoes
XQsThaiPoes 12 years ago

Weird I am a religion I have not even heard of. But Oddly it does rank the churches that apeal to me JWs and Judaism high. Oddly all these started in the 1800's.


1.  Bahá'í Faith (100%) 

2. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (91%) 3. Reform Judaism (85%) 4. Liberal Quakers (80%) 5. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (80%) 6. Jehovah's Witness (80%) 
 
bebu
bebu 12 years ago

How can I possibly take this test? I can't stop laughing so hard at the name: Belief-O-matic!!
I wonder if Ronco is behind this??
bebu


 
blondie
blondie 12 years ago

Bebu, click on the purple, underlined website in the first post. It will take you to the site.
 
bebu
bebu 12 years ago

Yes, I know Blondie...  It's just such a funny name...
bebu
 
gitasatsangha
gitasatsangha 12 years ago

The Mahayana Buddhist thing didnt suprise me, obviously, but the NeoPagan thing kinda did, and the Sikhism thing really did.


1.  Neo-Pagan (100%) 

2. Sikhism (91%) 3. Mahayana Buddhism (90%) 4. Theravada Buddhism (88%) 5. Unitarian Universalism (88%) 6. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (86%) 7. New Age (85%) 8. Hinduism (80%) 9. Liberal Quakers (80%) 10. Jainism (72%) 11. Taoism (65%) 12. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (60%) 13. New Thought (60%) 14. Reform Judaism (59%) 15. Bahá'í Faith (57%) 16. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (57%) 17. Secular Humanism (55%) 18. Scientology (47%) 19. Jehovah's Witness (46%) 20. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (45%) 21. Orthodox Judaism (41%) 22. Orthodox Quaker (41%) 23. Nontheist (34%) 24. Seventh Day Adventist (29%) 25. Eastern Orthodox (25%) 26. Islam (25%) 27. Roman Catholic (25%) 
 
Soledad
Soledad 12 years ago

.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 
2.  Unitarian Universalism (94%) 3.  Liberal Quakers (89%) 4.  Orthodox Quaker (77%) 5.  Secular Humanism (73%) 6.  Theravada Buddhism (67%) 7.  Hinduism (66%) 8.  Neo-Pagan (66%) 9.  Reform Judaism (66%) 10.  Mahayana Buddhism (61%) 11.  Seventh Day Adventist (61%) 12.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (58%) 13.  New Age (57%) 14.  New Thought (57%) 15.  Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (52%) 16.  Nontheist (52%) 17.  Taoism (52%) 18.  Jainism (51%) 19.  Scientology (50%) 20.  Bahá'í Faith (45%) 21.  Eastern Orthodox (45%) 22.  Roman Catholic (45%) 23.  Sikhism (37%) 24.  Orthodox Judaism (35%) 25.  Islam (30%) 26.  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (29%) 27.  Jehovah's Witness (19%) 
 
ohiocowboy
ohiocowboy 12 years ago

I have to give this test some merit! I took the test earlier with my own opinions, and posted them.

Then I decided to check and see how accurate this test really is, so I took the test again, and answered the questions in a J-Dubbie state of mind, and this is what It came up with..........100% right on the money JW. I am so glad I am no longer under the JW Mind control Mind set!!!

1.  Jehovah's Witness (100%) 
2. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (82%) 3. Eastern Orthodox (79%) 4. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (79%) 5. Orthodox Judaism (79%) 
 

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Belief-O-Matic says I'm a Mormon
by rocketman 12 years ago 28 Replies latest 12 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Crazy151drinker
Crazy151drinker 12 years ago

Well it looks like im a quaker
 
gitasatsangha
gitasatsangha 12 years ago

I think highly of your Oatmeal.
 
shera
shera 12 years ago

 Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 
2.  Bahá'í Faith (82%) 3.  Unitarian Universalism (77%) 4.  Liberal Quakers (77%) 5.  Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (73%) 6.  Sikhism (73%) 7.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (72%) 8.  Reform Judaism (69%) 9.  Orthodox Quaker (68%) 10.  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (67%) 11.  Mahayana Buddhism (62%) 12.  Theravada Buddhism (60%) 13.  Orthodox Judaism (60%) 14.  Hinduism (56%) 15.  Scientology (55%) 16.  Neo-Pagan (54%) 17.  Eastern Orthodox (54%) 18.  Roman Catholic (54%) 19.  Seventh Day Adventist (54%) 20.  New Thought (53%) 21.  Islam (51%) 22.  Jehovah's Witness (51%) 23.  New Age (47%) 24.  Jainism (47%) 25.  Taoism (37%) 26.  Secular Humanism (34%) 27.  Nontheist (17%) 
 
Undaunted Danny
Undaunted Danny 12 years ago

My girlfriend and I are members of the UU church here in Bangor.I took no survey.I just knew they are the liberal voice.I damn sure ain't gonna get anybody's dogma shoved down my throat.
That the beauty of free choice.I can always go off and get saved as a born again if I so choose.Meanwhile,the easy going UU church gets me out of myself.They also have abundant charties for the poor and the downtrodden of the community.
I.E.They do real stuff to help people!
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 12 years ago

Well, I'm Eastern Orthodox (100%), Roman Catholic (100%) and Orthodox Quaker (93%). Now, that's a combination!
 
Special K
Special K 12 years ago

Well I remember doing this about a year ago on this forum and I got
Unitarian Universalism
One year later .. I gave it another go..
I'm still Unitarian Universalism
Some of my views have changed this past year but it still never affected the outcome of my belief-O-matic spin..lol
Special K
 
talesin
talesin 12 years ago

Lemme see,

1.  Unitarian Universalism (100%) 
2. Liberal Quakers (92%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (87%) 4. Theravada Buddhism (83%) 5. Secular Humanism (77%) 6. Mahayana Buddhism (73%) 7. Taoism (70%) 8. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (64%) 9. Neo-Pagan (64%) 10. Bahá'í Faith (62%) 11. New Age (62%) 12. New Thought (61%) 13. Scientology (53%) 14. Nontheist (51%) 15. Jainism (50%) 16. Reform Judaism (50%) 17. Hinduism (50%) 18. Orthodox Quaker (49%) 19. Sikhism (38%) 20. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (37%) 21. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (32%) 22. Jehovah's Witness (27%) 23. Orthodox Judaism (25%) 24. Seventh Day Adventist (23%) 25. Islam (20%) 26. Eastern Orthodox (12%) 27. Roman Catholic (12%)
Yes, I still have a pulse, but this quiz is fkced. I have NO Christian leanings whatsoever, so there ya go!
The UU I could handle, but the Quakerism,,, no way.
And wassup with the liberal Christian Protestantism? brrrr, I'm getting a chill!
heheh
 
Special K
Special K 12 years ago

Oh.. soooo talesin
You are a UU too...
Being a You-You (UU) is certainly better than being the Yo-Yo in the J.W. faith.
Do you think UU's wear flip-flops like the yo-yo's do.
lol
Special K
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 12 years ago

I never knew that I was a closet Baha'i
Well, Well. Well
 

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Topic Summary
i took the "belief-o-matic" survey at beliefnet yesterday, and it looks like i am a mormon.
the survey matches your beliefs on various matters to the creeds of the world's religions and assigns a percentage.
i was 100% church of jesus christ of latter-day saints.



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In Defense of Mormonism- What Do You Think About A Professor's Presentation?
by Scott77 3 years ago 9 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

Opinionator - A Gathering of Opinion From Around the Web
SEPTEMBER 16, 2012, 5:30 PM
Why I Love Mormonism
By SIMON CRITCHLEY
I've spent what is rapidly becoming nine years in New York City. It's been a total blast. But as a transplanted Englishman one thing to which I've become rather sensitive in that time is which prejudices New Yorkers are permitted to express in public. Among my horribly overeducated and hugely liberal friends, expressions of racism are completely out of the question, Islamophobia is greeted with a slow shaking of the head and anti-Semitism is a memory associated with distant places that one sometimes visits - like France.
But anti-Mormonism is another matter. It's really fine to say totally uninformed things about Mormonism in public, at dinner parties or wherever. "It's a cult," says one. "With 13 million followers and counting?" I reply. "Polygamy is disgusting," says another. "It was made illegal in Utah and banned by the church in 1890, wasn't it?" I counter. And so on. This is a casual prejudice that is not like the visceral hatred that plagued the early decades of Mormonism - lest it be forgotten, Joseph Smith was shot to death on June 27, 1844, by an angry mob who broke into a jail where he was detained - but a symptom of a thoughtless incuriousness.
There is just something weird about Mormonism, and the very mention of the Book of Mormoninvites smirks and giggles, which is why choosing it as the name for Broadway's most hard-to-get-into show was a smart move. As a scholar of Mormonism once remarked, one does not need to read the Book of Mormonin order to have an opinion about it.
But every now and then during one of those New York soirées, when anti-Mormon prejudice is persistently pressed and expressed, and I perhaps feel momentarily and un-Mormonly emboldened by wine, I begin to try and share my slim understanding of Joseph Smith and my fascination with the Latter-day Saints. After about 45 seconds, sometimes less, it becomes apparent that the prejudice is based on sheer ignorance of the peculiar splendors of Mormon theology. "They are all Republicans anyway," they add in conclusion, "I mean, just look at that Mitbot Romney. He's an alien." As an alien myself, I find this thoughtless anti-Mormon sentiment a little bewildering.
This is mainly because my experience with Mormonism was somewhat different. Very early on in my philosophical travels, near the Italian city of Perugia to be precise, I met Mormon philosophers - Heideggerians actually, but this was the 1980s when many such dinosaurs roamed the earth - and got to know them quite well. They were from Brigham Young University and they were some of the kindest, most self-effacing and honest people I have ever met. They were also funny, warm, genuine, completely open-minded, smart and terribly well read. We became friends.
There was still suspicion, of course, perhaps even more so back then. I remember being pulled aside late at night by an American friend and told, "You know that guy from B.Y.U. They say he's a bishop and conducts secret services." "Does he eat babies too?" I wondered out loud.
Thereby hangs a story. Because of my convivial contact with these philosophers from B.Y.U., I was invited in 1994 to give a series of lectures. I stayed for more than a week in Provo, Utah. The absence of caffeine or any other stimulants was tough, but the hospitality was fulsome and I was welcomed into people's homes and treated with great civility and care. My topic was romanticism, and the argument kicked off from the idea that the extraordinary burst of creative energy that we associate with romantic poetry comes out of a disappointment with a religious, specifically Christian, worldview. Poetry becomes secular scripture. In other words, romantic art announces the death of God, an idea that catches fire in the later 19 th century. It's a familiar story.
Things went pretty well. But right at the end of the final lecture, something peculiar happened. A member of the audience asked me a question. He said, "What you have been telling us this week about romanticism and the death of God where religion becomes art is premised on a certain understanding of God, namely that God is unitary and infinite. Would you agree?" "Sure," I said, "At least two of the predicates of the divinity are that he/she/it is unitary and infinite." Gosh, I was smart back then. "But what if," he went on, "God were plural and finite?"
Concealing my slight shock, I simply said "Pray, tell." Everyone in the room laughed, somewhat knowingly. And with that the chairman closed the session. I went straight up to my questioner and pleaded, "Tell me more." Thirty minutes later, over a caffeine-free Diet Coke in the university cafeteria, he explained what lay behind his question.
"You see," my questioner said, "in his late sermons, Joseph Smith developed some really radical ideas. For a start, God did not create space and time, but is subject to them and therefore a finite being. The Mormon God is somewhat hedged in by the universe, and not master of it. The text to look at here is an amazing sermon called 'King Follett,' which was named after an elder who had just died and was delivered in Nauvoo, Ill., a few months before the prophet was murdered. He asks repeatedly, 'What kind of being is God?' And his reply is that God himself was once as we are now."
He leaned in closer to me and continued in a lower voice,"If you were to see God right now, Smith says, right now, you would see a being just like you, the very form of a man. The great secret is that, through heroic effort and striving, God was a man who became exalted and now sits enthroned in the heavens. You see, God was not God from all eternity, but became God. Now, the flip side of this claim is that if God is an exalted man, then we, too, can become exalted. The prophet says to the company of the saints something like, 'You have to learn how to be gods. You have to inherit the same power and glory as God and become exalted like him.' Namely you can arrive at the station of God. One of our early leaders summarized the King Follett sermon with the words, 'As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may be.' "
"So, dear Simon," my new friend concluded, "we, too, can become Gods, American Gods, no less." He chuckled. I was astonished.
My host, Jim, arrived to pick me up for an early dinner at his home and then drove me to back to Salt Late City to make a late flight to Chicago. I kept looking at the vast night sky in the Utah desert and thinking about what my interlocutor had said. I read the King Follett sermon and anything else I could find, particularly a very late sermon by Smith on the plurality of Gods, given around 10 days before the prophet's murder. They totally blew me away. I also stole a copy of the Book of Mormon from the Marriott hotel in Chicago and waded through as much of it as I could. To be honest, it's somewhat tedious.
Of course, I knew that what the audience member told me was heresy. Christianity is premised on the fact of the incarnation. There was a God-man rabbi in occupied Palestine a couple of millenniums ago. But that doesn't mean that anyone can go around claiming divinity, like Joachim of Fiore in the 12 th century or the recently deceased and much missed Rev. Sun Myung Moon. There was only one incarnation. God became man, was crucified and resurrected and we're still waiting for him to come back. The New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation, is very clear that he is coming soon. Admittedly, it's been a while.
In order to explain the consubstantiality of God and man in the person of Christ, third and fourth century Christian Fathers, including Saint Augustine, built up the wonderful theological edifice of the Trinity. The three persons of the Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, are distinct but participate in the same substance. Three in one is one in three. It is a heretical act of arrogance to arrogate divinity for oneself or to claim multiple incarnations. God is indeed unitary and infinite.
Joseph Smith believed none of that. He taught that God the Father and the Son were separate substances, both of them material. Speaking directly of the Trinity, Smith remarked, "I say that is a strange God," and goes on, in a line that must have got big laughs back in 1844, "It would make the biggest God in the world. He would be a wonderfully big God - he would be a giant or a monster," Not only is the Mormon God not as big as the Christian God, there are any number of Gods within Mormonism. In the late sermons, Smith repeatedly talks about a council of the Gods that was meant to take place sometime before the Book of Genesis begins. This is based on a rather windy interpretation of various Hebrew words, which concludes with the claim, "The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world."
But wait, things get even weirder. Smith accepts that Jesus Christ had a father, namely God, but goes on, "You may suppose that He had a Father," adding, "Was there ever a son without a father?" Common sense would answer no, but Christians must answer "Yes, there was." Namely that God created all creatures, but was himself uncreated. God is causa sui, a self-caused cause. Smith explicitly rejects this idea, saying "We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so?" He goes on, "I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself." God is not an uncaused cause, but himself part of the chain of causation.
This is a little like that amazing exchange said to have taken place following Bertrand Russell's lecture, "Why I Am Not a Christian," given at Battersea Town Hall in South London in 1927. After Russell had made his case for atheism, a female questioner asked him, "What Mr. Russell has said is well enough, but he has forgotten that the entire universe stands on the back of a turtle." Quite unfazed, Russell answered, "Madam, upon what does the turtle stand." "Oh," she said, "it's turtles all the way down."
For Joseph Smith, it is turtles all the way down. There is an endless regress of Gods which beget one another, but which do not beget the universe. That is, creation is not ex nihilo,as it is in Christianity, where God created heaven and earth, as it says at the beginning of the Bible. Rather, matter precedes creation. This makes the Mormon God like the Demiurge in Plato's pagan creation myth in the Timeaus. The Mormon God does not create matter. He simply organizes it. Admittedly, he organized it pretty impressively. Just look at the design of trees.
The great thing about Mormonism is that Mormons take very seriously the doctrine of incarnation. So seriously, indeed, that they have succeeded in partially democratizing it. For Christians, incarnation is a one-time, long distance ski jump from the divine to the human. But for Joseph Smith, incarnation is more of a two-way street, and potentially a rather congested thoroughfare. If God becomes man, then man can become God. And the word "man" has to be understood literally here. Women cannot be priests or prophets or aspire to an exclusively masculine divinity, which seems petty, a pity and rather silly to me. But there we are. And I don't even want to get into questions of race and the historical exclusion of blacks from the Mormon priesthood until 1978.
The point is that any number of Mormon men can become God - potentially even you know who. It's an intriguing thought.
There is a potential equality of the human and the divine within Mormonism, at least in the extraordinary theology that Joseph Smith speedily sketched in the King Follett sermon. Divinity is the object of that much admired Mormon striving. Perhaps this is why Mormons are so hardworking.
Smith says, and one gets a clear sense of the persecution that he felt and that indeed engulfed and killed him, "They found fault with Jesus Christ because He said He was the Son of God, and made Himself equal with God. They say of me, like they did of the apostles of old, that I must be put down. What did Jesus say? 'Is it not written in your law, I said: Ye are Gods' Why should it be blasphemy that I should say I am the son of God."
Of course, for Christians, this is the highest blasphemy. But the Mormon vision is very distinctive. The idea is that within each of us is a spirit or what Smith calls an 'intelligence' that is co-equal with God. Smith says in the King Follett sermon, "The first principles of man are self-existent with God." This intelligence is immortal. Smith goes on, "There never was a time when there were not spirits, for they are co-equal (co-eternal) with our father in heaven." If God could not create himself, then one might say that each of us has within us something uncreated, something that precedes God and that is itself divine.
Having accepted to be sent into the world, as Mormons sometimes put it, the task is to exalt ourselves such that we, too, can become Gods. God the Father was just a stronger, more intelligent God capable of guiding the weaker intelligences, like us. As Smith says in a marvelously sensuous, indeed gustatory, turn of phrase, "This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you." Who wouldn't want a taste of God or to taste what it might be like to be a God oneself?
~~~~~
The heretical vistas of Mormonism, particularly the idea of something uncreated within the human being, excited the self-described Gnostic Jew, Harold Bloom. I read his wonderful 1992 book "The American Religion" shortly after my trip to Utah and just reread it recently with great pleasure. Bloom sees Mormonism as the quintessential expression of an American religion and controversially links the idea of the plurality of Gods to plural marriage. The argument is very simple: If you are or have the potential to become divine, and divinity is corporeal, then plural marriage is the way to create as much potential saints, prophets and Gods as possible. Indeed, plural marriage has to be seen as a Mormon obligation: if divinity tastes so good, then why keep all the goodness to oneself? Spread the big love. It makes perfect sense (at least for heterosexual men).
In his quasi-prophetic manner, Bloom thought the future belonged to Mormonism, concluding, "I cheerfully prophesy that some day, not too far in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will have enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again. Without it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never can be fulfilled."(p.123)
It makes little sense to say that Mormonism is not Christian. It's right there in the Mormon articles of faith that were adapted from Smith's famous Wentworth Letter from 1842. Article 1 reads, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." But, as Bloom makes compellingly clear, Mormonism is not just Christian. The new revelation given to Joseph Smith in his visions and the annual visits of the angel Moroni from 1820 onward, is a new gospel for the new world. Mormonism is an American religion, which beautifully, if fallaciously, understands the native inhabitants of the New World as ancient descendants of inhabitants of the Old World, the scattered tribes of Israel. Article 10 reads, "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the ten tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent." I don't know whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has read this article of faith, but it might have some specific consequences for American foreign policy should his close friend and former colleague at the Boston Consulting Group, Mitt Romney, be elected.
Mormonism is properly and powerfully post-Christian, as Islam is post-Christian. Where Islam, which also has a prophet, claims the transcendence of God, Mormonism makes God radically immanent. Where Islam unifies all creatures under one mighty God to whom we must submit, Mormonism pluralizes divinity, making it an immanent, corporeal matter and making God a more fragile, hemmed-in and finite being. And obviously, both Islam and Mormonism have a complex relation to the practice of plural marriage.
Yet unlike Islam, for whom Muhammad is the last prophet, Mormonism allows for continuing revelation. In a way, it is very democratic, very American. Article 9 reads, "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." In principle, any male saint can add to the stock and neverending story of revelation and thereby become exalted. From the standpoint of Christianity, both Islam and Mormonism are heresies and - if one is genuine about one's theology, and religion is not reduced to a set of banal moral platitudes - should be treated as such.
Like Bloom, I see Joseph Smith's apostasy as strong poetry, a gloriously presumptive and delusional creation from the same climate as Whitman, if not enjoying quite the same air quality. Perhaps Mormonism is not so far from romanticism after all. To claim that it is simply Christian is to fail to grasp its theological, poetic and political audacity. It is much more than mere Christianity. Why are Mormons so keen to conceal their pearl of the greatest price? Why is no one really talking about this? In the context of you-know-who's presidential bid, people appear to be endlessly talking about Mormonism, but its true theological challenge is entirely absent from the discussion.
Simon Critchley is Hans Jonas professor of philosophy at the New School for Social Research in New York. He is the author of many books, most recently,"Faith of the Faithless: Experiments in Political Theology," and is the moderator of this series.
This post has been revised to reflect the following correction:
Correction: September 17, 2012

An earlier version of this essay referred imprecisely to a doctrine of Mormon theology. While the doctrine holds that some humans might eventually become gods, it does not hold that specific individuals, like the church prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, have attained godhood. (In recent years, church leaders have not emphasized the doctrine.)
The essay also misstated one word of the Mormons' ninth Article of Faith. The article states that "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" - not "great and important themes."
◦Copyright 2012 The New York Times Company
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◦NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018


 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

Just like JWs or Moonies or Scientlogists, I do not dislike Mormons as individuals. However, I believe their organization is a cult or high control group. It's not about doctrine per say, though I disagree with their teachings, but it is about the system of BITE though reform that has been built up along with it. The author does not having an understanding for cults or mind control. Which is not surprising…not many people do unless it has affected their life in an adverse way.
 
ziddina
ziddina 3 years ago

The Mormon attitudes towards women are abysmal - even to this day.
You might want to check out some of the ex-Mormon websites and see what ex-Mormons have to say about their former religion...
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/start_here.html
Oh, and here's a book you may want to read:
http://www.archive.org/stream/wifenoorstoryofl00youniala#page/n3/mode/2up
And an article:
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no112.htm
One of the funniest things I've seen on those ex-Mormon boards - and I'm afraid I didn't save the specific link - was a conversation between a couple of ex-Mormons who were commenting on ex-Jehovah's Witnesses.
Roughly, they said, "Those ex-Jehovah's Witnesses think THEY were in a cult; they ought to check out Mormonism!!"
 
Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago


Roughly, they said, "Those ex-Jehovah's Witnesses think THEY were in a cult; they ought to check out Mormonism!!"  
ziddina 
Ziddina, that would be like us out of the frying pan and into the fire. I hate mormonism either.

Scott77
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 3 years ago

The professor is focused mainly on Mormonism as a belief system and a theology, not as a social group with particular rules, norms, roles, practices, and attitudes.
 
ziddina
ziddina 3 years ago

Leolaia, how could any serious professor consider the origins of Mormonism and then come to the conclusion that it is beneficial? Or perhaps he hadn't looked deeply into the fate of dissenters within - and expelled from - the religion??
 
ziddina
ziddina 3 years ago

"and I perhaps feel momentarily and un-Mormonly emboldened by wine, I begin to try and share my slim understanding of Joseph Smith and my fascination with the Latter-day Saints..."
Is it possible that this professor is a Mormon apologist, functioning under some Mormon version of "Theocratic Warfare"???
 
ziddina
ziddina 3 years ago

..."You see," my questioner said, "in his late sermons, Joseph Smith developed some really radical ideas. For a start, God did not create space and time, but is subject to them and therefore a finite being. The Mormon God is somewhat hedged in by the universe, and not master of it. The text to look at here is an amazing sermon called 'King Follett,' which was named after an elder who had just died and was delivered in Nauvoo, Ill., a few months before the prophet was murdered. He asks repeatedly, 'What kind of being is God?' And his reply is that God himself was once as we are now." ..."
In so many ways, that paragraph captures the crux of Mormonism - the fluid ideas about what "god" is, especially ironic considering that these ideas were being generated by a hedonistic con artist; the concept that every man - and you'll notice, ONLY MEN - will ultimately take on the form of a 'god' or 'gods'; and the extremely clear point that this is a VERY recently generated religion, with none of the weight of antiquity behind it - though Joseph Smith attempted to generate some 'legitimacy' by making up "tribal" names supposedly from ancient Israel and its surrounding "enemies".
 
ziddina
ziddina 3 years ago

"...Of course, I knew that what the audience member told me was heresy. Christianity is premised on the fact of the incarnation. There was a God-man rabbi in occupied Palestine a couple of millenniums ago. But that doesn't mean that anyone can go around claiming divinity, like Joachim of Fiore in the 12 th century or the recently deceased and much missed Rev. Sun Myung Moon. There was only one incarnation. God became man, was crucified and resurrected and we're still waiting for him to come back. The New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation, is very clear that he is coming soon. Admittedly, it's been a while. ..."
Here's another flaw in his approach. You'll notice that he makes no references to any OTHER world religion - the concept of multiple incarnations immediately brought to my mind the Hindu belief systems, to name just one.
Clearly this man is approaching the subject based exclusively upon a Christian viewpoint. Further down in the article, he tells the apocryphal tale of the female questioner at a Bertrand Russell lecture, but when the universal "turtle" is mentioned, it doesn't elicit the least reference to Hinduism.
Eventually, he does refer to Joseph Smith's new religion as "a gloriously presumptive and delusional creation", but he has taken far too long to draw THAT conclusion, for my tastes.
 
Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

Zidina,

You are way a head of the mark, kudos on your informative post.

Scott77
 

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Should I Convert to Become a MORMON??
by Latte 13 years ago 55 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Latte
Latte 13 years ago


Just thought I’d share with you. Any tips on dealing with them would be greatly appreciated…..thanks!
Yesterday, I had two lovely young men at my door - they were Mormons. It was a very hot day, so I invited them in as the conversation progressed. Cool drinks were the order of the day!
What struck me about them, was the many similarities to the Pioneer friends I’d known in the ‘troof’
They were incredibly polite, and their message was very well put over, they came across as quite genuine, which was very refreshing. They were aged about 20 ish.
Due to my JW history I thought that I would indulge them a little…………anyhow they prayed over/for/ them/me (lol) at the beginning of our discussion , and also at the end of the discussion . (prayer was definitely for me this time!! Lol)
They kindly left the book of Mormon with me…no study books like the dubs would of done just their equivalent to Gods Word, simple. They told me about their meeting’s of which there is only ONE a week, and for 2/3 of the meeting the children are kept busy doing kiddies activities which I thought was good too!! Far better than the dubs on that one!
They made an arrangement to call back after emphasising the need to pray whilst reading their book of Mormon. I had told them previously that I prefer to keep the airways free for those that really need it (like the abused children etc) Anyhow, I will now have to look up what the INTERNET has to say about Mormons and get the full picture eh??
Their final goodbye helped me decided that no….I don’t think that being a Mormon is for me, they pointed out that their names are ELDER…….so’n’so Urrgh!!!!
They were nice young men, and on a day where I felt quite low, they were pleasant, which was nice. I particularly warmed to them when they told me that they DO NOT cut off ties with former members. One told me of a relative who had left the faith, and he couldn’t wait to see him again to continue their friendship. Now that is nice! I will have to really check that one out!
No, I am not ready to convert, just ready to try and make sure that these guys are fully informed. They have arranged to come back this Friday…..pray for me you guys!! lol
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 13 years ago


I have Mormon's (LDS) call on me regularly, where I indulge them in a little discussion.
They DO shun former members (maybe he was looking forward to seeing them in one of their three heavens), and usually swiftly move on to demanding that you believe that Joseph Smith was the "one true prophet", so that they can establish their "holy books" (plural).
They believe that the "Father" once walked around in a physical body, that they should be baptised multiple times, as a proxy for dead family relatives, and that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three gods which is what they may too become if they work hard enough.
There are a lot of parallels with the JW mindset, but they have plenty of their own alternative wackiness.
Nice bunch of clean-cut guys, though, in a borg-like way.
 
Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.
Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice. 13 years ago


Latte - I have consulted several dictionaries, and moron is only spelt with one letter m, so I figure your subject must contain a spelling error. Otherwise, you could only be a mor(m)on to even consider such a possibility.
cheeses - who means no offense to latte - it was just too good to pass up.
 
Alleymom
Alleymom 13 years ago


www.utlm.org has a lot of info.
They kindly left the book of Mormon with me

You could go through the first few books, starting with 1 Nephi, and highlight the parts which appear to be taken from the KJV Bible. The KJV English translation was published in 1611, so these exact phrases shouldn't appear in a book which was supposedly written between 600 BC and 33 AD. Then show them the highlighted passages and ask them to explain.

Mark Twain said that the Book of Mormon "seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel—half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity." (Roughing It, by Mark Twain, page 110)
(from Utah Lighthouse Ministries)
KJV: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you (1 John 1:3)
BM: to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard (1 Nephi 1:18)
KJV: stedfast, unmoveable (1 Corinthians 15:58)
BM: steadfast, and immovable (1 Nephi 2:10)
KJV: being grieved for the hardness of their hearts (Mark 3:5)
BM: being grieved because of the hardness of their hearts (1 Nephi 2:18)
KJV: that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not (John 11:50)
BM: that one man should perish than that a nation should...perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13)
KJV: people and kindreds and tongues (Revelation 11:9)
BM: kindreds, tongues, and people (1 Nephi 5:18)
KJV: they are not of the world (John 17:14)
BM: who are not of the world (1 Nephi 6:5)
KJV: the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
BM: the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world (1 Nephi 10:10)
KJV: through the power of the Holy Ghost (Romans 15:13)
BM: by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:17)
KJV: of them that diligently seek him (Hebrews 11:6)
BM: all those who diligently seek him (1 Nephi 10:17)
KJV: the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8)
BM: the same yesterday, today, and forever (1 Nephi 10:18)
KJV: he that seeketh findeth (Luke 11:10)
BM: he that...seeketh shall find (1 Nephi 10:19)
KJV: bare record that this is the Son of God (John 1:34)
BM: bear record that it is the Son of God (1 Nephi 11:7)
KJV: the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5)
BM: the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men (1 Nephi 11:22)
KJV: the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Luke 3:22)
BM: the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove (1 Nephi 11:27)
KJV: heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man (John 1:51)
BM: heavens open again, and I saw angels descending upon the children of men (1 Nephi 11:30)
KJV: all sick people that were taken with divers diseases...and those which were possessed with devils Matthew 4:24)
BM: who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils (1 Nephi 11:31)
KJV: wars and rumours of wars (Matthew 24:6)
BM: wars, and rumors of wars (1 Nephi 12:2)
KJV: the earth did quake, and the rocks rent (Matthew 27:51)
BM: the earth and the rocks, that they rent (1 Nephi 12:4)
KJV: their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14)
BM: their garments are made white in his blood (1 Nephi 12:10)
KJV: made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14)
BM: made white in the blood of the Lamb (1 Nephi 12:11)
KJV: gold, and silver,...and fine linen,...and silk, and scarlet,...and all manner vessels of most precious wood (Revelation 18:12)
BM: gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing (1 Nephi 13:7)
KJV: pervert the right ways of the Lord (Acts 13:10)
BM: pervert the right ways of the Lord (1 Nephi 13:27)
KJV: blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart (John 12:40)
BM: blind the eyes and harden the hearts (1 Nephi 13:27)
KJV: the power of the Holy Ghost (Romans 15:13)
BM: the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 13:37)
KJV: endureth to the end shall be saved (Matthew 10:22)
BM: endure unto the end...shall be saved (1 Nephi 13:37)
KJV: tidings of great joy (Luke 2:10)
BM: tidings of great joy (1 Nephi 13:37)
KJV: first shall be last; and the last shall be first (Matthew 19:30)
BM: last shall be first, and the first shall be last (1 Nephi 13:42)
KJV: the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (Revelation 17:1 and 15)
BM: the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people (1 Nephi 14:11)
KJV: the fiery darts of the wicked (Ephesians 6:16)
BM: the fiery darts of the adversary (1 Nephi 15:24)
KJV: nor unclean person,...hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ (Ephesians 5:5)
BM: there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God (1 Nephi 15:34)
KJV: shall be saved; yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)
BM: shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire (1 Nephi 22:17)
KJV: blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke (Acts 2:19)
BM: blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke (1 Nephi 22:18)
KJV: the lust of the flesh (1 John 2:16)
BM: the lusts of the flesh (1 Nephi 22:23)
KJV: the things that are in the world (1 John 2:15)
BM: the things of the world (1 Nephi 22:23)
KJV: his own sheep,...they know his voice (John 10:4)
BM: his sheep, and they know him (1 Nephi 22:25)
KJV: and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (John 10:16)
BM: and there shall be one fold and one shepherd (1 Nephi 22:25)
KJV: by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Galatian 2:16)
BM: by the law no flesh is justified (2 Nephi 2:5)
KJV: full of grace and truth (John 1:14)
BM: full of grace and truth (2 Nephi 2:6)
KJV: I lay down my life, that I might take it again (John 10:17)
BM: who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit (2 Nephi 2:8)
KJV: the firstfruits unto God (Revelation 14:4)
BM: the firstfruits unto God (2 Nephi 2:9)
KJV: that old serpent, which is the Devil (Revelations 20:2)
BM: that old serpent, who is the devil (2 Nephi 2:18)
KJV: he is a liar, and the father of it (John 8:44)
BM: who is the father of all lies (2 Nephi 2:18)
KJV: hath chosen that good part (Luke 10:42)
BM: have chosen the good part (2 Nephi 2:30)
KJV: O wretched man that I am (Romans 7:24)
BM: O wretched man that I am (2 Nephi 4:17)
KJV: the sin which doth so easily beset us (Hebrews 12:1)
BM: the sins which do so easily beset me (2 Nephi 4:18)
KJV: I know whom I have believed (2 Timothy 1:12)
BM: I know in whom I have trusted (2 Nephi 4:19)
KJV: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men
liberally (James 1:5)
BM: God will give liberally to him that asketh (2 Nephi 4:35)
KJV: ye ask amiss (James 4:3)
BM: I ask not amiss (2 Nephi 4:35)
KJV: this corruptible must put on incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:53)
BM: this corruption could not put on in corruption (2 Nephi 9:7)
KJV: Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)
BM: transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light (2 Nephi 9:9)
KJV: death and hell delivered up the dead (Revelation 20:13)
BM: death and hell must deliver up their dead (2 Nephi 9:12)
KJV: we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10)
BM: they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One (2 Nephi
9:15)
KJV: my words shall not pass away (Matthew 24:35)
BM: his eternal word, which cannot pass away (2 Nephi 9:16)
KJV: he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still (Revelations 22:11)
BM: they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still (2 Nephi 9:16)
KJV: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)
BM: the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire; prepared for them (2 Nephi 9:16)
KJV: endured the cross, despising the shame (Hebrews 12:2)
BM: endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame (2 Nephi 9:18)
KJV: the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34)
BM: the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world (2 Nephi 9:18)
KJV: that your joy might be full (John 15:11)
BM: their joy shall be full (2 Nephi 9:18)
KJV: commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)
BM: commandeth all men that they must repent (2 Nephi 9:23)
KJV: where no law is, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15)
BM: where there is no law given there is no punishment (2 Nephi 9:25)
KJV: the wisdom of this world is foolishness (1 Corinthians 3:19)
BM: their wisdom is foolishness (2 Nephi 9:28)
KJV: But woe unto you that are rich (Luke 6:24)
BM: But wo unto the rich (2 Nephi 9:30)
KJV: where your treasure is, there will your heart be also (Matthew 6:21)
BM: hearts are upon their treasures (2 Nephi 9:30)
KJV: shalt be thrust down to hell (Luke 10:15)
BM: shall be thrust down to hell (2 Nephi 9:34)
KJV: die in your sins (John 8:21)
BM: die in their sins (2 Nephi 9:38)
KJV: to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life (Romans 8:6)
BM: to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually- minded is life (2 Nephi 9:39)
KJV: and to him that knocketh it shall be opened (Matthew 7:8)
BM: And whoso knocketh, to him will he open (2 Nephi 9:42)
KJV: Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female (Galatians 3:28)
BM: Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female (2 Nephi 10:16)
KJV: He that is not with me is against me (Luke 11:23)
BM: they who are not for me are against me, saith our God (2 Nephi 10:16)
KJV: lay aside...the sin (Hebrews 12:1)
BM: lay aside our sins (2 Nephi 10:20)
KJV: reconciled to God (Romans 5:10)
BM: reconciled unto God (2 Nephi 10:24)
KJV: by grace are ye saved (Ephesians 2:8)
BM: through the grace of God that ye are saved (2 Nephi 10:24)
KJV: the power of his resurrection (Philippians 3:10)
BM: the power of the resurrection (2 Nephi 10:25)
KJV: the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
BM: the Only Begotten of the Father (2 Nephi 25:12)
KJV: there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12)
BM: there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ,...whereby man can be saved (2 Nephi 25:20)
KJV: in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
BM: made alive in Christ (2 Nephi 25:25)
KJV: in no wise cast out (John 6:37)
BM: in nowise be cast out (2 Nephi 25:29)
KJV: grind him to powder (Matthew 21:44)
BM: grind them to powder (2 Nephi 26:5)
KJV: darkness rather than light (John 3:19)
BM: darkness rather than light (2 Nephi 26:10)
KJV: I...will draw all men unto me (John 12:32)
BM: he may draw all men unto him (2 Nephi 26:24)
KJV: be beaten with few stripes (Luke 12:48)
BM: will beat us with a few stripes (2 Nephi 28:8)
KJV: in everlasting chains (Jude, verse 6)
BM: his everlasting chains (2 Nephi 28:19)
KJV: judged every man according to their works (Revelation 20:13)
BM: judged according to their works (2 Nephi 28:23)
KJV: the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14)
BM: a lake of fire (2 Nephi 28:23)
KJV: built his house upon a rock (Matthew 7:24)
BM: built upon the rock (2 Nephi 28:28)
KJV: built his house upon the sand (Matthew 7:24)
BM: built upon a sandy foundation (2 Nephi 28:28)
KJV: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath (Matthew 13:12)
BM: for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even even that which they have (2 Nephi 28:30)
KJV: out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works (Revelation 20:12)
BM: out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works (2 Nephi 29:11)
KJV: ye shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:3)
BM: ye shall all likewise perish (2 Nephi 30:1)
KJV: fell from his eyes as it had been scales (Acts 9:18)
BM: scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes (2 Nephi 30:6)
KJV: for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed (Matthew 10:26)
BM: There is nothing which is secret save it shall be revealed (2 Nephi 30:17)
KJV: made manifest by the light (Ephesians 5:13)
BM: made manifest in the light (2 Nephi 30:17)
KJV: the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
BM: the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world (2 Nephi 31:4)
KJV: to fulfil all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)
BM: to fulfil all righteousness (2 Nephi 31:5)
KJV: strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life (Matthew 7:14)
BM: straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life (2 Nephi 31:18)
KJV: with the tongues...of angels (1 Corinthians 13:1)
BM: with the tongue of angels (2 Nephi 32:2)
KJV: because ye ask not (James 4:2)
BM: because ye ask not (2 Nephi 32:4)
KJV: men ought always to pray, and not to faint (Luke 18:1)
BM: ye must pray always, and not faint (2 Nephi 32:9)
KJV: how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out (Romans 11:33)
BM: How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways (Jacob 4:8)
KJV: withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (John 15:6)
BM: wither away, and we will cast them into the fire that they may be burned (Jacob 5:7)
KJV: quench not the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19)
BM: quench the Holy Spirit (Jacob 6:8)
KJV: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done (Luke 22:42)
BM: Nevertheless, not my will be done (Jacob 7:14)
KJV: thy faith hath made thee whole (Matthew 9:22)
BM: thy faith hath made thee whole (Enos 8)
KJV: whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive (Matthew 21:22)
BM: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing...ye shall receive it (Enos 15)
KJV: Come, ye blessed (Matthew 25:34)
BM: Come unto me, ye blessed (Enos 27)
KJV: grievous to be borne (Matthew 23:4)
BM: grievous to be borne (Mosiah 2:14)
KJV: when ye shall have done all those things...say, We are unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10)
BM: if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants (Mosiah 2:21)
KJV: drinketh damnation to himself (1 Corinthians 11:29)
BM: drinketh damnation to his own soul (Mosiah 2:33)
KJV: He came unto his own (John 1:11)
BM: he cometh unto his own (Mosiah 3:9)
KJV: I judge: and my judgment is just (John 5:30)
BM: he judgeth, and his judgment is just (Mosiah 3:18)
KJV: become as little children (Matthew 18:3)
BM: become as little children (Mosiah 3:18)
KJV: put off the old man (Colossians 3:9)
BM: puttenth putteth off the natural man (Mosiah 3:19)
KJV: believe that he is, and that he (Hebrews 11:6)
BM: believe that he is, and that he (Mosiah 4:9)
KJV: enemy of all righteousness (Acts 13:10)
BM: enemy to all righteousness (Mosiah 4:14)
KJV: the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12)
BM: the thoughts and intents of his heart (Mosiah 5:13)
KJV: stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work (1 Corinthians 15:58)
BM: steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works (Mosiah 5:15)
KJV: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory (1 Corinthians 15:55)
BM: the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting (Mosiah 16:7)
KJV: I am the light of the world (John 8:12)
BM: He is the light...of the world (Mosiah 16:9)
KJV: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29)
BM: If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation (Mosiah 16:11)
KJV: one faith, one baptism (Ephesians 4:5)
BM: one faith and one baptism (Mosiah 18:21)
KJV: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free (Galatians 5:1)
BM: stand fast in this liberty wherewith ye have been made free (Mosiah 23:13)
KJV: Pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)
BM: pray without ceasing (Mosiah 26:39)
KJV: Marvel not that... Ye must be born again (John 3:7)
BM: Marvel not that all mankind...must be born again (Mosiah 27:25)
KJV: the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity (Acts 8:23)
BM: the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity (Mosiah 27:29)
KJV: every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God (Romans 14:11)
BM: every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him (Mosiah 27:31)
KJV: stand fast in the faith (1 Corinthians 16:13)
BM: stand fast in the faith (Alma 1:25)
KJV: sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 8:11)
BM: sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob (Alma 5:24)
KJV: the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (John 1:14)
BM: the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth (Alma 5:48)
KJV: taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
BM: take away the sins of the world (Alma 5:48)
KJV: the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire (Matthew 3:10)
BM: the ax is laid at the root of the tree, therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire (Alma 5:52)
KJV: Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance (Matthew 3:8)
BM: bring forth works which are meet for repentance (Alma 5:54)
KJV: come out from among them, and be ye separate,...and touch not the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17)
BM: come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things (Alma 5:57)
KJV: and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)
BM: and to cleanse from all unrighteousness (Alma 7:14)
KJV: lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us (Hebrews 12:1)
BM: lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you (Alma 7:15)
KJV: he which is filthy, let him be filthy still (Revelation 22:11)
BM: he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness (Alma 7:21)
KJV: faith, hope, charity (1 Corinthians 13:13)
BM: faith, hope, and charity (Alma 7:24)
KJV: thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God (Acts 5:4)
BM: thou hast not lied unto men only but thou hast lied unto God (Alma 12:3)
KJV: resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust (Acts 24:15)
BM: resurrection of the dead,...both the just and the unjust (Alma 12:8)
KJV: the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from (Revelation 6:16)
BM: the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from (Alma 12:14)
KJV: to die, but after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)
BM: must die; and after death, they must come to judgment (Alma 12:27)
KJV: this Melchisedec,...To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all (Hebrews 7:1-2)
BM: this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid...of one-tenth part of all (Alma 13:15)
KJV: not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able (1 Corinthians 10:13)
BM: not be tempted above that which ye can bear (Alma 13:28)
KJV: Rabboni; which is to say, Master (John 20:16)
BM: Rabbanah, which is...powerful or great king (Alma 18:13)
KJV: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16)
BM: being wise yet harmless (Alma 18:22)
KJV: I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel (Luke 7:9)
BM: I say unto thee, woman, there has not been such great faith among all the people of the Nephites (Alma 19:10)

KJV: My soul is exceeding sorrowful (Matthew 26:38)
BM: my heart is exceeding sorrowful (Alma 31:31)
KJV: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1)
BM: if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen (Alma 32:21)
KJV: springing up into everlasting life (John 4:14)
BM: springing up unto everlasting life (Alma 32:41)
KJV: one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled (Matthew 5:18)
BM: it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away (Alma 34:13)
KJV: child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness (Acts 13:10)
BM: against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness (Alma 34:23)
KJV: cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men (Matthew 5:13)
BM: cast out,...and is trodden under foot of men (Alma 34:29)
KJV: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2)
BM: behold now is the time and the day of your salvation (Alma 34:31)
KJV: work out your own salvation with fear (Philippians 2:12)
BM: work out your salvation with fear (Alma 34:37)
KJV: worship him...in spirit and in truth (John 4:24)
BM: worship God,...in spirit and in truth (Alma 34:38)
KJV: and learn of me; for I (Matthew 11:29)
BM: and learn of me; for I (Alma 36:3)
KJV: Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me (Mark 10:47)
BM: Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me (Alma 36:18)
KJV: meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls (Matthew 11:29)
BM: meek and lowly in heart; for such shall find rest to their souls (Alma 37:34)
KJV: I am the light of the world (John 8:12)
BM: he is...the light of the world (Alma 38:9)
KJV: the lusts of the eyes (1 John 2:16)
BM: the lusts of your eyes (Alma 39:9)
KJV: shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12)
BM: shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth (Alma 40:13)
KJV: fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (Hebrews 10:27)
BM: fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God (Alma 40:14)
KJV: restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets (Acts 3:21)
BM: restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets (Alma 40:22)
KJV: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43)
BM: then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God (Alma 40:25)
KJV: without God in the world (Ephesians 2:12)
BM: without God in the world (Alma 41:11)
KJV: it is appointed unto men once to die (Hebrews 9:27)
BM: it was appointed unto man to die (Alma 42:6)
KJV: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free (Galatians 5:1)
BM: stand fast in that liberty wherewith God has made them free (Alma 58:40)
KJV: cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also (Matthew 23:26)
BM: the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also (Alma 60:23)
KJV: lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven (Matthew 6:20)
BM: lay up for yourselves a treasure in heaven (Helaman 5:8)
KJV: except ye repent, ye shall...perish (Luke 13:5)
BM: except ye repent ye shall perish (Helaman 7:28)
KJV: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up (John 3:14)
BM: And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come (Helaman 8:14)
KJV: treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment (Romans 2:5)
BM: heaping up for yourselves wrath against the day of judgment (Helaman 8:25)
KJV: darkness rather than light (John 3:19)
BM: darkness rather than light (Helaman 13:29)
KJV: graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,...and appeared unto many (Matthew 27:52-53)
BM: graves shall be opened, and shall yield up many of their dead; and many saints shall appear unto many (Helaman 14:25)
KJV: the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2:22)
BM: the dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire (3 Nephi 7:8)
(The above information was found on the Tanner's website, www.utlm.org.)
Marjorie


 
LittleToe
LittleToe 13 years ago


Did I forget to add that they have retranslated swathes of the KJV to suit their understanding, complete with interpolations of whole sentences? They aren't as subtle as the JW's.
Apparently even the earliest extant scrolls must have been corrupted by the Roman Catholic Church
Oh, and their book of Abraham is a corker. It's a "translation" of a portion of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", complete with an altered drawing of Anubis: http://neirr.org/bof.htm
They dodge around issues that they are uncomfortable with, like a running back on speed.
They WILL try to get you to accept JS as a true prophet, and likely dump you if you won't accept this.
You best chance is in the first few weeks, before they start to make this demand.
Having been trained in JW methods, their methods with likely jump out at you.
 
refiners fire
refiners fire 13 years ago


..."They told me about their meeting’s of which there is only ONE a week, "...
the only problem is the one meeting starts at 8am and concludes at 11pm. lol. But really,they are whacky, I expect pretty soon they will break out the plastic cup pyramid and demonstrate how the structure 1 / 3 / 12 / 70 is the ideal structure for the outpouring and down flow of the holy spirit upon the thirsty church masses.
 
Alleymom
Alleymom 13 years ago


The Book of Mormon claims that Native Americans are descended from the Israelites, but recent DNA studies show that the Native Americans are of Asian origin. They came over the land bridge from Siberia.
Unlike JW's, many Mormons are scientists, and the DNA evidence has been enough to cause some of them to leave the church.
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no100.htm#DNA
 
mizpah
mizpah 13 years ago


Before anyone becomes a Mormon convert, two books should be required reading. Both are by the same author who had a parent who was a Mormon.
Author: Ernest H. Taves
Books: TROUBLE ENOUGH Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and THIS IS THE PLACE Brigham Young and the New Zion.
 
KGB
KGB 13 years ago

becoming anything is better than being addicted to this discussion board. If I were you I would go find a better place to discuss than this one.
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 13 years ago


No Latte, I don't think you want to be a Mormon. Any religion bulging with 20 yr old elders is not a good idea.
I have seen where they work their females, (especially spouses) so hard that they are near mental collapse all the time.
You might give them KGB's address though. It seems he needs a break from this forum and a little comforting.
Now wasn't that nice of me?
Outoftheorg
 
amac
amac 13 years ago


Great list Alleymom, thanks!
The only good thing about being a Mormon is that if you are really good you get to become a God yourself and have your own planet to play with!
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


They DO shun former members
WRONG, this just is NOT true.... they do not shun, they try to help those that have been disassociated with the church either by excommunication or disfellowshipping, I know that for a FACT. I have had several morman friends, and they're the best. I've been to their church meetings, and while I have truouble with some of the doctrines, I enjoyed the experience more than some other churches I attended. They are a nice group of people.... if you want to socialize - you could do a lot worse.
And as far as some of your anti-morman postings....a lot of them are ignorant and laughable.
Lastly, I'm talking about Mormans here in California, which, I understand, tend to be a bit more laid back... so if any of you have had other experiences, so be it.
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 13 years ago


Hi Double edge. I live in southern Idaho. The place is full of mormons. While many of them are very nice people individually, as a group, they tend to want to run things their own way. In agreement with their religion. This falls over into political actions and police and sheriffs depts.
My comment about about over working their women folk is based on observing and what I was told by a neurologist in Salt Lake City Utah.
My ex wife, still a jw was having major migrain headaches. These things are awful and debilitating.
We went to see this neurologist and one of his first questions was,"are you guys mormon"?
We said no and told him we were jw's. I asked him why, he had asked? He tells us that a major part of his practice is mormons and they demand so much from their women, that the stress is overwhelming for many of the women. He was prescribing anti depressants and anti anxiety meds for hundreds of mormon women.
Being loyal j-dubs at that time we both assured him that, this is not the case here.
I was a lot dumber at that time than I am now.
There is a woman here in town whose husband is a mormon bishop. They are very nice people.
She is on the go all day and into the night. At this point she is seemingly happy and willing. One of their young daughters was diagnosed as having esophagial spasms lately. They were told by the Dr. that it must be from stress. The daughters are into all kinds of clubs and events. All of which seem to me, to be good for youngsters. But too much is too much.
I have nothing big against mormons, but facts are facts and they are like many other cults in this respect.
Outoftheorg
 
Latte
Latte 13 years ago


WOW! Thanks you so much for all the info….I will definitely look it all up. I have just recovered from a Migraine so have just got out of bed - looks like I will have to put them off for tomorrow! At least it will give me more time to be prepared.
I have to admit that I am a little tempted to attend one of their meetings…. just to imagine how any ‘interested person’ might have felt walking into a K.Hall full of cult members LOL
One thing which I wanted to check out was their strange comment that they had a prophet there in UTAH….A PROPHET!!! I always view anyone’s claim of their being a prophet as utter CRAP. Just a control/fear tactic…. to come up with a PROPHET….Rubbish! Now that alarmed me, made me think that these young men are having the strings of their lives pulled by some money grabbing dude in UTAH…..Just like being a dub.
Having said that….they only have to do their ministry for TWO years….now THAT IS GOOD!!
KGB
Thanks for the advice! May I ask why is it that you can offer such advice when you clearly have an addiction problem yourself ????
 
mustang
mustang 13 years ago


Being a JW is more cost effective: you can "stiff 'em" @ the Contribution Box. (They deserve this.)
Mormons are a different story: they will send you a BILL!!!
Mustang
 
Englishman
Englishman 13 years ago


No smoking.
No tea.
No LATTE!
Englishman.
 
integ
integ 13 years ago

NO
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 13 years ago


This was good timing. I just had the Mormon's call, and tell me once again how they are the only true church, and everyone else is wrong.
DoubleEdge:
You should allow for local variation. Here in Britain (where both Latte and myself live) I can assure you that the Mormon's behave in such a way.
If you think that some of the postings are "ignorant and laughable", perhaps you'd like to point out where...
KGB:
Do you have issues with this board? If so, why are you still posting here?
Latte:
Hope the migraine clears. You really will want to be on top form, when talking to them. It doesn't pay to be at any disadvantage.
They'd probably like to visit the house every other day, but I suggest that you allow it to be no more often that weekly visits. Just a suggestion
 
MegaDude
MegaDude 13 years ago

Don't forget to ask about the special underwear that only Mormons wear.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 13 years ago

Good call, Jerry, including the Masonic symbols stitched onto them.
If JS wasn't a Mason, he certainly was another cult-starting-masonic-wannabe.
 

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Should I Convert to Become a MORMON??
by Latte 13 years ago 55 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Simon
Simon 13 years ago


They always call themselves "Elder"
If they come, say your name is "Berry" and they should refer to you as "Elderberry" (he he)
Actually, I could go with the Mormon thing ... do they still do that multi-missus thing?
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

I get the mormons around here every once in awhile but haven't even seriously considered them as anything but another cult .
 
Brummie
Brummie 13 years ago


It might be a good Idea to convert to mormonism and marry a good mormon man, thats the only way you will ever get chance of a resurrection, if he is pleased with you he will call you forth on the resurrection day, if he's not pleased with you...byeeeeeeeeee
Good news is, if he does consider you worthy of a resurrection you will have the blessed hope of bringing forth children for all eternity. millions of em! Too good a chance to miss huh? You'll have a planet all of your own to populate. Hope he's good at sex cus your gonna be in a real fix if he isnt. Oh and you wont be able to have headaches in your new system of things.
Brummie
 
Maverick
Maverick 13 years ago

Now I ask you...Why would you want to become a Moron. They're so many morons out there in the world already. The world needs smart people not more morons! Oh...wait...your talking about MORMONS...opps! Oh hell my answer is still good for that question too! Maverick
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 13 years ago


Yes Simon. The Latter day saints, the huge mormon corporation, with all the money, do not practice polygamy any more. They had to do away with that belief in order to have state hood and escape the governments wrath.However there are groups in the US and Mexico and Canada that do practice polygamy as a primary belief. In the state of Utah there are estimated to be several thousand polyigamists in small groups. They are easily recognizable as they usually are seen as 2 or 3 families with clothing reminiscent of what was worn around 1900.They behave as if others are not there or do not exist. They seem to be enjoying them selves imensely. But I doubt that they really are.They usually live in small groups in rundown not finished buildings and depend on state and county assistance to feed the many children and wives. If you drive or walk up to one of these groups you are looked at with suspicion and are made to know you are not welcome.
On the border between Utah and Arizona there is a small town that consists of only polygamists. They built on the border so that if the authorities were coming their way from Arizona they could step over into Utah and into another jurisdiction to foil the authorities. Or vice versa.I
In the US the authorities, state and county, can not pursue some one across the lines unless they are in what is called "hot pursuit". That is a crime comitted in their jurisdiction and they still have the perp in sight, then and only then can they cross borders to make arrests on their own. Federal authorities do not have that hindrance.
Recently a polygamist in western Utah began to publicly pronounce his polygamist life and challenge the authorities. He is now in prison. It seems that the state will not act unless you make yourself known and embarrass the authorities.The state of Utah is run by mormons and they do not want the bad publicity. Yet they seem to tolerate this to a great degree.
Aren't religions and cults a constant source of amazing beliefs and almost unbelievable nonsense??
Outoftheorg
 
Yizuman
Yizuman 13 years ago


Both founders are cults and both founders (JWs and LDS) were members of the Masons.
I suggest you look into the website, this couple are former Mormons and they can tell you alot about their experience.....
http://www.ibae.org/html/fac.html
Contact them by email or call them.
Latah Latte!
Yiz
 
Ravyn
Ravyn 13 years ago


LDS is just another flavor of christianity. and most particular sects of christianity feel they are the only true and legit one. so basically if you ask another christian about mormons you will get a negative response. who cares if they use masonic symbols? personally i like the mormons and if they just were not so into Jesus and the whole christianity thing I would be one. In fact I was baptized a mormon, so I guess I am one. But I was only active for about a year. as far as theology---they are no where near JWs and alot of their eschatology and prehuman existence beliefs are pretty square with alot of new age-ish spiritualists--also not a negative in my book.
they do not treat you like JWs do and it has been my experience as both that they are polar opposites in most things. the missionaries i have met are very humble and sincere, and will be the first to tell you that no one knows all the answers. Unlike JWs.
check out some of my posts in the past on this subject.
Ravyn
 
KGB
KGB 13 years ago


latte,
 ROFLMAO I used to be a Mormon myself but yes they are a cult just like the JW's and I strongly suggest staying away from them. Also someone posted here saying that the mormons also shun, no they do not, they believe that through love you bring them back. I believe that too because when I was shunned by the JW's it really pissed me off
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


Also someone posted here saying that the mormons also shun, no they do not, they believe that through love you bring them back.
Thank you KGB for validating what I said earlier regarding shunning. A lot of what is being claimed for 'fact' is nothing more than heresay. I suggest anyone wanting to find out facts should ask a morman. There was a morman poster on here last year by the name of SUSANHERE who seem to hold her own in answering questions about her faith. The following is one of her posts from last year that is quite detailed.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/20836/1.ashx
I suggest you check her other postings to find additional "from the horses month" information. It seems more balanced and fairer when you get both sides of the story.
 
KGB
KGB 13 years ago


outoftheorg,
Hey man please do send them mormons over to my house. They were here the other day , funny thing.
I got them to admit to me that by believeing in Christ and his purpose fullfilled in scripture is all we need to be saved from death(second death) and they both replied yes I was right then I said well in that I guess I dont need to be a mormon then do I. He then went on about how they teach the true gospel and so I asked. "are you implying that I cannot understand the scriptures when I read them ? He said no ! Then I said then I guess I can get the true understanding of the scriptures by reading them right? He said yes but with out the book of Mormon you do not get the full truth from the scriptures so then I said oh your now adding to the bible and what does the last verse in the bible say ? He said anyone who adds or takes away from my words shall be destroyed. He then stood up with his partner and said" I guess we have nothing else to say here" and I told them that they were welcomed any time if they needed a cold drink to stop by I would oblige them.
They will probably never come to my door again
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 13 years ago


I stand by my comments on shunning - this was from several local mormon sources.
Whether or not that is general policy, or policy in Britain alone, I don't know.
As for the masonic symbols, that bothers me little, but the superstitions regarding the wearing of such "holy undergarments" are kinda scatty.
The "exclusive guardians of truth" position has to set alarm bells ringing.
 
Simon
Simon 13 years ago


I've heard from peolpe that Mormons do shunning too.
It may be like the JWs do though - some peolpe can leave and are fine but like most closed sects / cultish groups, if they think you are a threat (because of what you know) then they will try and prevent people having any contact from you. This is the reason that both organisations practise shunning ultimately.
 
searchfothetruth
searchfothetruth 13 years ago


That would be like leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire!!!
I was talking to a former Morman a while back who had gone quite high up and he told me something that would but the Watchtower siciety to shame.
He said that the temples that they have are not open to the public but there are certain areas reserved for those who reach certain states of spirituality. The more spiritual you become the more secrets you are exposed to (a bit like freemasonry)
He said that the thing that made him question the faith was when he was told that when you reach the top plain of spirituality, and then die, you will become a God over your own planet....and that our God was once a man on another world!
Now that is unbelievable....do you want to get involved in a religion that believes that.?
The Mormons and JW's are very similar.....don't be fooled by them.
 
Robdar
Robdar 13 years ago


If you are feeling froggy...jump
There is one light and yet many paths.
Take the one that most interests you.
Robyn
 
glitter
glitter 13 years ago

The whole "magical knickers" thing fascinates me. But not enough to convert to try them on.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


The whole "magical knickers" thing fascinates me. But not enough to convert to try them on.
Several months ago I commented on the "magical knickers" the mormans wear...here is what I posted:
"I've got several Morman friends ... some wear the 'underware' some do not.

The underwear (they call them garments) are worn only by members who have been to their Temple (like couples who are married there). Just being baptised doesn't do it. I am told that the garment itself is nothing 'mystical' or weird, and is thought of as a religious vestment, like Rabbi's who wear the Tallit (prayer shawl) or Yarmulkah. Like a lot of religious vestments or symbols, the garment is a reminder of the Temple and is worn on the body as a reminder of the scriptures that indicate that the body is a 'temple of God' for housing ones spirit and to treat it with respect accordingly.

Now you may agree or disagree on the need for religious vestments, whether they be Communion dresses, Yarmulkah's or garments.... different strokes for different folks .... however, I do not think that anyone's religious attire should be a source of ridicule."
 
Ravyn
Ravyn 13 years ago


do yourself a big favor and go buy all of Marion Zimmer Bradley's books starting with The Fall of Atlantis, The Forest House, The Priestess of Avalon, The Lady of Avalon, and Mists of Avalon.
It will cure you from xtianity. I really can't even let myself get sucked into this thread too deeply because the arguments of fundys that they are right and mormons are wrong are so infantile it is beyond even the effort it would take for me to refute any of the garbage. and I dont want to offend individuals.
Ravyn
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 13 years ago


Latte,
Some of the little discussed beliefs of Mormons...That God was once a man just like us, and that he had a Father who was God, and that there is an infinite line of gods that were once human, and that YOU TOO can become a god.
There is a "hidden" mother goddess from whom all spirits were born from the conjugal act between her Hubby Jehovah and her.
No alcohol, no tobaco, no drinks with caffine.
The "Elders" aren't the same as in the Society. The "Elders" have no authority, it's vested in the Stake President (Presiding Overseer).
One meeting a week my a$$! One CHURCH session, sure, but with the ladies auxiliaries, seminary (bible study) etc there are so many meetings that they finally declared one day a week FREE from meetings so as to allow families to spend time together, most locations use Monday as that day.
Each President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) is considered a Prophet and CALLED a Prophet, of almost equal standing with Joe Smith. Their "governing body" called Qurom of the 72 I think actually VOTE on what is and isn't inspired utterings by this prophet (not quite sure on this part of the equations, but this is my understanding)
Aside from the KJV Bible and the Book of Mormon, here's a list of other "scriptures" of the LDS, "Principles of the Gospel" "Doctrines and Covenants", "Pearl of Great Price", and the Patriarchal Blessing Each (male?) LDS recieves from his Bishop is considered "Personal Scripture"
God Lives on a planet called Kobal (or some such name), Angels travel on Light Beams,
Of all the whacky fringe religions I've run into, these guys are actually my favorite. The 2nd best Chaplain I ever worked for is LDS. When I was in Germany and Tennesee I always made it a point to kind of watch over the missionaries, who are basically 19 year old kids away from home, trying to do what they believe in. These guys and gals have to fund their own missionary trip. I'd just make sure they weren't being harrassed by the Army folks too much and make sure they had a good meal now and again if the local congregation fell through for some reason.
They do Shun EXCOMMUNICATED members, but I'm not sure about those who just disassociate.
They have WATER instead of wine at their communion services.
They do a "Temple Work" part of which involves going to their nearest Temple and having themselves "baptized" over and over again for their dead relatives and friends, from generations ago. The LDS have some of the best geneological records available. After they've done their "Temple Work" They are then authorized to wear what is "usually" a one piece temple garment that looks like a boxer shorts and t-shirt jump suit. Funny as heck watching an Army Medic trying to pull up the Mormon guys T-shirt in front of me, he was trying to listen to the guys lungs from the back, gave the kid the wedgie from HELL. HILARIOUS!
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


After they've done their "Temple Work" They are then authorized to wear what is "usually" a one piece temple garment that looks like a boxer shorts and t-shirt jump suit. Funny as heck watching an Army Medic trying to pull up the Mormon guys T-shirt in front of me, he was trying to listen to the guys lungs from the back, gave the kid the wedgie from HELL. HILARIOUS!
Gee Yeru....

Do others get as much of a laugh out of the silly catholic 'dresses' you guys wear as you do regarding other's religious vestments?
BTW.... again, they DO NOT SHUN.... I would challenge anywone on this board to show me that it is policy or and 'understanding' that they do. In FACT, if someone does shun someone else, they are not living their religion in trying to follow the example of Jesus.
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 13 years ago


Double,
I myself make jokes about certain Catholic Garments and rituals, that's human nature. Besides, the Catholics don't wear the "dress" all the time and under their regular clothes, so there aren't as many opportunities for something funny to happen to a Catholic. No, I concede that in the JW sense of the word they don't shun, but I've seen several of thier more notorious excommunicated apostates avoided, but not by family.
 

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Topic Summary
just thought id share with you.
any tips on dealing with them would be greatly appreciated..thanks!
yesterday, i had two lovely young men at my door - they were mormons.



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Should I Convert to Become a MORMON??
by Latte 13 years ago 55 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


No, I concede that in the JW sense of the word they don't shun, but I've seen several of thier more notorious excommunicated apostates avoided, but not by family.
Thank you Yeru... as always, you're a class act.
 
mizpah
mizpah 13 years ago


Years ago, I talked with an X Mormon who became a JWs. She told me how her family would have nothing to do with her. She used the example of how she saw some of her former members of the church approach her as she was walking on the sidewalk. They purposely crossed over to the other side to avoid any contact. This sounds like "shunning" to me.
Perhaps, the official policy of the church is different. But I'm sure other X Mormons have experience similar reactions.
It is interesting, though, that Mormons use the same expression (Disfellowship) to describe a person who has left their organization. Doesn't the word denote some sort of breaking from the fellowship of believers?
 
refiners fire
refiners fire 13 years ago


Experiences within Mormonism do seem to vary. I, personally, was highly pressurized into taking the step of Mormon baptism very soon after they first met me. Others experience it differently. So its possible that one person can say one thing and another relate a different experience.
Being an "Elder" in the mormon church is no big deal, neither is being in the "Aaronic priesthood" , Far as I understand it every 12 year old is in the "Aaronic" priesthood. The MELCHIZADEK priesthood is a different matter. Thats the real status symbol for rank and file in the church. Being a "bishop" means you are a "presiding overseer".
Mormons have many interesting beliefs.-- Baptism for the dead. Multiple levels of heaven wherein all will be saved but only SOME will reign as gods. A preexistant heavenly existance where you agreed to come to earth in a body. And Adam as "Michael the Archangel". Mormons believe that there was a disagreement in heaven and the council decided that "Michael" would come to earth as Adam,adam would sin and then we could all experience the experience of Sin and Redemption,Apparently, in Mormon lore, Adam was the first man to recieve the Melchizadek priesthood and he passed it on to his righteous posterity while he lived in Missouri USA.That was after he got kicked out of Eden.
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 13 years ago


You have an early good impression of the mormons, just like many have good impressions of the witnesses.
KGB said:
becoming anything is better than being addicted to this discussion board. If I were you I would go find a better place to discuss than this one.
I hope you are kidding.
The book of mormon is 1/16 direct copy of the KJ; an old friend was related to Pratt and did an in depth paper on them. They are just as whacked as the witnesses.
 
Francois
Francois 13 years ago

Not only that, but they have to wear funny underwear, at all times.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


The book of mormon is 1/16 direct copy of the KJ; an old friend was related to Pratt and did an in depth paper on them. They are just as whacked as the witnesses.
Of course that argument could be made by a Muslim about Jews and Christians. The New Testament quotes the Hebrew Bible (O.T.)... Christians are just as whacked as the Jews.
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 13 years ago


Double Edge,
That's just it, the New Testament QUOTES the Old Testament. The Book of Mormon presents itself as a new and independent work. It's not quoting from the KJV bible it's PLAGERIZING it...BIg Difference.
 
Mr. Kim
Mr. Kim 13 years ago


Good points on all posts.  I look at it this way: Why go from one problem (JW) to another new and fresh problem? All of it is still a PROBLEM! Do we as people need any more problems in our lives?---- Gluttons for punishment?
However, a chosen path is exercising free will. The decision is yours---good luck!
 
La Capra
La Capra 13 years ago

As a public high school teacher, I see lots of different religious backgrounds in action "out and about in the world." For the most part Mormon teenagers are well cared for, have a sense of purpose,d uty, community service and a work ethic. I feel bad for them that they have to come to school at 6:30 A.M. for seminary everyday (the school district allows them to use a classroom). However, like with the JWs there are some Mormon kids for whom this religion will be bondage-the kids that are clearly homosexual, and those that just don't buy it and don't know a way. I had a very blunt conversation with a classmate of mine in law school who is an active, devout Mormon, whose husband bailed on her because he finally was tired of not being able to be gay. It was about shunning and excommunication. She gave me the same line that they don't shun former members. It is sort of like the JW line-and then I asked her if she knew of families that shunned their children who had left the faith, and she had to admit that she did, even though it was not the official church policy. When pressed, she admitted it was generally because they were afraid of the fallout from their fellow congregants that motivated it. She admitted that she was impressed that I immediately saw through the veil of official policy to the true practice of most Mormons. I told her that I encourage my Mormon students that are struggling with wanting to be free of their parents' religion, to try to be patient, postpone their missions and try to get as far in their education as possible before formally abandoning their religion. She thought that for the child, it was probably the best way to handle things. They are a bit luckier, Mormons don't deny their children a good education. Shoshana
 
Myxomatosis
Myxomatosis 13 years ago

Hello,

Errr.... If you wish to join another elitist 'club' I s'pose, but not if you're actually searching for G-d.
They're preeeetty whacked. My close friend got her boyfriend to tell her some of the mormon beliefs, and one of them was that you couldn't go swimming while on a mission in the lake, because the devil is there and he will pull you under. That's what he said! I don't know if that's an 'official' belief. Anyways, they're a cult, they are sure they are the one true religion, as evidenced not less than a month ago a very devout mormon who wrote this on a MB, and I saved it.




"Mormons believe that their church is ''the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth' (D&C 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almight to preach his gospel and administer to ordinances of salvation, the only Church which has the power to save'' (Mormon Doctrine , 1977 ed., p. 136)."
Mormon says:
Yes, this is true. Jesus only set up one church and said let there be no divisions in it and told them to speak the same thing in all the churches. There can therefore be only one true church and it must be consistant teaching the same thing in all the churches.
I believe that is the Mormon Church. You may believe it is another church. Allowing all churchs to be that church is very generous on the part of man, but it is not God's way and all but one church are false churches with out the power to save. That is just the fact of it Whether you wish to belive it our not.




"No church has the power to save. We can only be saved by coming to the Lord Jesus Christ according to John 14:6 and Acts 4:12. The Bible doesn't tell us that we can be saved through a church of any kind"
Mormon says:
"I would have to go through and read the whole Bible looking for scriptures to this effect and by then this discussion would be forgotten. I can say that the Bible says one must have authority to perform saving ordinances and that authority is found in the true church. I can also say that the true gospel is administered through the true church so in order to have the true doctrine you must get it from the true church. The church is the kingdom of God on earth and either you are in it our you are not."

In other words, the mormon church, exactly as the watchtower, is the one true church, and on top of believing in Christ, you must belong to it, for it is the kingdom of G-d on earth. The mormon church is the one with the "authority to perform saving ordinances" (HUUHHHHH?????) and that this is found in "the true church" (LDS) sooo...I don't know... a wee similar to the JW's then?

On top of this, you may be interested to know that even though they don't call it 'old light' if you are to bring up for example the teachings of BRIGHAM YOUNG, they would tell you that that is a lie, not what they believe. In other words it is 'old light' In fact, I was watching dateline or somesuch the other day where an ex-Mormon was in jail for the murder of his sister in law and her baby, because Gawd had told him that they were in the way of their preaching work. You know what? The reason he was ex-communicated was because of his interest in the works of BRIGHAM YOUNG, had read that he COULD BE LIKE G-D, had read that G-d WAS FIRST A MAN LIKE ADAM, on and on, and he was labeled an apostate and df'd for his belief in the Mormons OWN TEACHINGS. It would be like someone in the JW saying that Christ arrived in 1874 today, and to 'beware of organization for it is wholly unnecessary'. The WT of today would not take well to that. Anyways, if you don't know much of their history, here's a bit of interesting things about the mormons that they will not inform you of most likely. Do you know anything of Joseph Smith, the 'prophet'?
It is not that the books he wrote were dropped from heaven, in a nutshell, and this is directly from their own mouths, though I can't find my book with the quotes, Moroni the angel of light visited him and over a four year period every year he would go back to where there were the stone tablets on a mountain or something. He had to prove himself I believe, on the fourth year, he was able to take the tablets, and by the power of Gawd tranlsate them. That's how you got the BOM, which has had over 3,000 edits since it's first edition in 1830.
Now, the Book of Abraham is seriously one of the funniest things I've read about.
here you are from Josh McDowells 'UTC':
Here's something fun about the 'Book of Abraham'
" Most interesting is the recently exposed fraud of the so-called book of Abraham, part of the Mormon scripture known as 'The Pearl of Great Price.' This was assertedly translated from an ancient Egyptian papyrus found in the mummy wrappings of certain mummies which had been acquired by a certain Michael H. Chandler.
In 1835 Joseph Smith became very much interested in these papyrus leaves, which he first saw in Kirtland, Ohio, on July 3, and arranged for the purchase of both mummies and manuscripts. Believing he had divinely received the gift of interpreting ancient Egyptian, he was delighted to find that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham himself, whose signature he had personally inscribed in the Egyptian language.
In 1842, Smith published his translation under the title, " The Book of Abraham" in Times and Seasons. He even included three drawings of the pictures or vignettes appearing in the manuscript, and interpreted the meaning of these illustrations: Abraham sitting upon the throne of Pharaoh, the serpent with walking legs who tempted Eve in Eden.
For many years, the collection of papyri was lost, but somehow they (or else a duplicate set of them from ancient times) were presented to the Mormon Church by the Metropolitan Art Museum of New York City on November 27, 1967. This made the translation skill of Joseph Smith susceptible to objective verification.
The unhappy result was that earlier negative verdicts of scholars like Theodule Devaria of the Louvre, and Samul A.B. Mercer of Western Theological Seminary, and James H. Breasted of the Univercity of Chicago, and W.F. Flinders Petrie of London University( who had all been shown Smith's facsimiles) were clearly upheld by a multitude of present-day Egyptologists.
Their finding was that not a SINGLE WORD of Joseph Smith's alleged translation bore ANY resemblance to the contents of this document. It turned out to be a late, eve Ptolemaic, copy in hieratic script of the Sensen Papyrus, which belongs to the same genre as the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
As John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, described it in a published letter written on March 16, 1966, it contains vignettes familiar from the Book of the Dead. The first illustration shows the god of embalming named Anubis preparing the body of the deceased for burial, with the sould hovering over his head in the form of a bird, and the canopic jars containing the dead man's inwards set beneath his bier.
The third picture shows the deceased led into the presence of Osiris, the infernal deity who judged the sould of the dead. (This is what Smith had identified (by the Power of God) as Abraham sitting on Pharoahs throne!) Figure 2 was a round disc made of cloth and jesso and customarilly placed as a pillow under the head of a corpse in the Late Egyptian period.
The accompanying text, as can be ascertained from other copies of this not uncommon document, deals with the magical spells intended to open the mouth of the deceased and to prepare him for his audience before Osiris in the judgement hall of the dead (as set forth in detail in chap. 125 of the Book of the Dead, the Egyptian title of which is P-r m h-r-w, or 'The Going Forth by Day"). Needless to say, the completely mistaken concept of Joseph Smith as to his competence in ancient Egyptian is now clearly demonstrated beyond debate. "
"Also, The Pearl of Great Price contains the Book of Moses, which is roughly equivalent to the first six chapters of Genesis, and The Book of Abraham, a translation of an Egyptian Papyrus THAT LATER PROVED TO BE FRAUDULENT,,,(see above) so Moroni was being deceitful??? That's not a quality I would attribute to either God or on of His Angels...`





"The Book of Mormon and Archaeology:
Mormon scholars can be frustrated and embarrased understandably when they realize that after all the years of work by Mormon and other archaeologists:
1. NO Book of Mormon cities have been located
2. NO Book of Mormon names have been found in the New World inscriptions
3. NO genuine inscriptions have been found in Hebrew in America
4. NO genuine inscriptions have been found in America in Egyptian or anything similar to Egyptian, which could correspond to Joseph Smith's "reformed Egyptian"
5. NO ancient copies of Book of Mormon scriptures have been found.
6. No ancient inscriptions of any kind in America which indicate that the ancient inhabitants had Hebrew or Christian beliefs have been found.
7. No mention of 'Book of Mormon' persons, nations, or places have been found.
8. NO artifact of any kind which demonstrates the Book of Mormon is true has been found.
9. Rather than finding supportive evidence, Mormon scholars have been forced to retreat from traditional interpretations of Book of Mormon statements (Hal Hougey, Archaeology and the Book of Mormon, p.12)




 
archangel01
archangel01 13 years ago

listen to Myxomatosis. He or she hit it on the dot. Go to Jesus to be saved! Much love a brother in Christ!!!!!!!!!!
 
Myxomatosis
Myxomatosis 13 years ago

archangel: listen to Myxomatosis. He or she hit it on the dot. Go to Jesus to be saved! Much love a brother in Christ!!!!!!!!!!
Myx: hey thank you! that's very kind, though, not many people I do think care very much for my point of view :frowning: s'ok. Actually, that bit about solely having Jesus I didn't actually write, but I sure as hell agree with it! I just had to copy that when I read it on this other site cos it's so exactly what the JW's say!!

btw, I'm a (f)oxy lady nice to meet you archangel!
I'm presuming you WERE a JW at some point then? sorry, I have to ask, cos I wasn't so I'm not sure when others have been, anyways
luv,

Myxomatosis
*fake royalty secondhand sequin facade*
 
CharlesTaze
CharlesTaze 13 years ago


No, I believe that the [hi]story of "Star Wars" it is more truely than the story of the Mormons...
I have read the "Book of Mormon", 'The Pearl' of something book & the 'Doctrines and' something else book... they are a bound of mistic and imagination stories.
Sorry... But that is my opinion, I believe that I can became a "JEDI", but I don't believe that I can became a GOD with my own universe and with many wives, etc...
 
expatbrit
expatbrit 13 years ago


Here is a site by one of the more prominent Mormon "apostates" which is well worth checking out: http://geocities.com/packham33/#MORMONISM
You'll find the similarities that loyal Mormons have with the JW's quite unnerving, particularly in the arguments they use about "apostates", information control and why they know that Mormonism is the true religion.
Expatbrit
 
Latte
Latte 13 years ago


Thank you all so much for your comments on this thread. I’m sorry that I’ve not posted too much - my migraine came back with a vengeance.
The two Mormon guy’s failed to show up on Friday (I was ill anyhow) I have to say that I was kinda glad J I thought that I’d got of scott free, then my hubby informs me that they called on Saturday to see when they could call again (gasp!!) I was still poorly so they said they would call again - they just called this evening, and they arranged to call on me next week when I have more time.
I don’t know whether or not I can take on these guy’s (if you know what I mean…lol) To make any headway, one has to have their facts right, and it seems that some time is required for me to do that.
I guess I have strong apostate feelings….to reveal untruth.

Thanks again for all the helpful comments,laughs and links....you guys are the best!
 
ApagaLaLuz
ApagaLaLuz 13 years ago

I too studied with Mormons after leaving the JWs. It made sense to me that there should be some sort of book AFTER the bible. It seemed to me that there was such a gap in time from when the bible was completed to now, that there must have been more divinely inspired prophets. I still read my Book Of Mormon from time to time, simply for research. But I found too many similarities between them and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The fact that they have flip flopped between teachings in the early years was unnerving to me. Their encouragement of isolation from the rest of the world. And eventually they too had many contradictions, and I eventually wrote them off as being a man made cult. Much like the Witnesses. I do not believe them to be divinely inspired.
 

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Topic Summary
just thought id share with you.
any tips on dealing with them would be greatly appreciated..thanks!
yesterday, i had two lovely young men at my door - they were mormons.



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