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Daily Text calling themselves out!
by lriddle80 13 days ago 5 Replies latest 12 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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lriddle80
lriddle80 13 days ago
So, my dad posts the daily text everyday on fb. This seems like hiding in plain sight to me!!

Thursday, February 25
 From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.—Acts 20:30.
 Sadly, the original Christian congregation gradually became corrupted. (Acts 20:29; 2 Pet. 2:2, 3; Jude 3, 4) As indicated by Jesus, such apostasy, promoted by “the wicked one,” Satan, would grow and obscure true Christianity until “the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matt. 13:37-43) Then Jehovah would enthrone Jesus as King over the world of mankind. That happened in October 1914, marking the beginning of “the last days” of Satan’s wicked system. (2 Tim. 3:1) Modern-day anointed Christians pointed in advance to October 1914 as a significant date. They based this on Daniel’s prophecy about a large tree that was cut down and would grow again after “seven times.” (Dan. 4:16) Jesus referred to this same period as “the appointed times of the nations” in his prophecy about his future presence and “the conclusion of the system of things.”—Luke 21:24; Matt. 24:3.
 +2 / -0
wwjdnwt
wwjdnwt 13 days ago
Crazy how they don't see themselves in this text!

 +5 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago
Must be soon now.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 13 days ago
Yes, if they insist that "the wicked" are everyone else, then they feel confident it cant apply to them!
 
prologos
prologos 13 days ago

Then Jehovah would enthrone Jesus as King over the world of mankind. That happened in October 1914, . wow!!
we then discussed the question: why do they still pray for god's kingdom to come, the other one, you know, the one that starts after armageddon in 2075, the millennium? sneaky double talk. keep texts like that coming wt.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 12 days ago



 +1 / -0

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Blogger advocates research but still duped by JW(Org)
by the girl next door 13 days ago 1 Replies latest 13 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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the girl next door
the girl next door 13 days ago

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/02/the_truth_about_the_pope_jehov.html
LITTLE OLD LADY: "Oh. Well, that's all right, I guess. I'm Baptist. At least we all believe in Jesus. Not like Jehovah's Witnesses." (Here she lowered her voice.) "They're not even Christians, you know. They're a cult."
In this day and age, there's just about no excuse for ignorance on such an important topic.

ME: "I have a friend who's a Jehovah's Witness. He says they are Christian. Maybe it's more a matter of them not believing in the doctrine of the Trinity rather than them not believing in Jesus."
The little old lady was having none of my explanation, however. She repeated her claim that "they're a cult," then proceeded to order her meat loaf and macaroni and cheese. There would be no actual exploration of Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs, much less a philosophical discussion of who and what define "Christianity." The conversation was over.
 
elderINewton
elderINewton 13 days ago
I can hear my grandma saying to me now. See I told you so just like this old grandma.
Grandma is seldom wrong. Damn hindsight.
 

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Your feelings for the former travelling overseers
by Hecce 13 days ago 39 Replies latest 5 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Hecce
Hecce 13 days ago

During our WT life we met a good number of friends involved in the Circuit and District work. I am sure that we share the same experience and that we remember fondly some that we caring, loving and generally interested in the brothers. At the same time we might remember others that were arrogant, selfish, abusive and oppressive. Now that their jobs have been abruptly taken away, the majority of them are undergoing a harsh adjustment to the realities of their new life and some are really struggling to adapt.
When I think about them I feel sorry for the ones that were sincere and honest about their service, no matter what we are told there is no way that people can have their life expectations changed on such a short notice without suffering a serious life shock. I know that plenty are depressed thinking about their present conditions and the life opportunities that were lost.
On the other hand if I think about the “bad” apples a certain degree of satisfaction comes over me, thinking that they are getting what they deserve and that it was about time for them to be put in their places.
One reality is that those individuals were living a life of privilege and adulation and that their life was based on a lie that has been exposed by their spiritual leaders. So in essence all of them to a certain degree are getting what they deserve.
With regards to the master puppeteers, the WT the actions taken with this group reflect treachery and a high disregard for the people associated with them.
These are my ramblings and I invite you to share yours.
Thanks
 +8 / -0
freddo
freddo 13 days ago

The only one I found to be a really "good egg" actually came off the circuit due to health issues in his late 70's a year or two before the "kick 'em out at age 70" and "no more D.O.'s" changes in 2014.
Most of the others were "nondescript predictable watchtower chanting drones"with unpleasant, unhelpful and petty demeanours.
One from a few visits back was an arrogant "look at me" self important bastard and he was taken off at age 70 on the last switch in 2015. Good riddance to him and his stuck up wife and I hope that the congregation he's gone to as "just another elder nobody" has a body of elders that bring him down a peg or two.
Good riddance to him.
Did I show a little too much emotion there?
 +9 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 13 days ago

freddo
I remember kindly a few ones, now one thing that I have to admit the bad ones were really, really "bad".
 +2 / -0
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 13 days ago
In the entire 32yrs - Jim & Jan Tate. Pfft to the rest.
 +1 / -0
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 13 days ago
* tried to edit - duh! Wanted to say, felt comfortable with.
 +1 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 13 days ago

ALL COs are nothing more than paid clergy, working to advance the interests of the WTBTS, while fully enjoying and some demanding worship from the congs.
It's wonderful to see many of them now be among us mere worker bees, working to support ourselves, and living the real life here in the 'world'. It's very easy to demand perfection and for things to be done a certain way while only having to deal with JWs 100% and have everything paid for plus a monthly paycheck and lots of 'green handshakes' every week from the 'men worshippers.
I hear quite a few of them are not faring very well after being placed down from their pedestal. Good!!!
There's this particular jerk in the Spanish Circuit, many years ago up North, Rene Ramirez; he was quite the elitist, only the best for him, always finding a way in his talks to correct how we spoke the Spanish language and how we behaved with one another, refusing to shake hands to avoid illness (he was a closeted germaphobe, is my belief). He was demeaning, condescending, rude. Once mature, I clearly understood why his JW wife just left him and then later on returned to being a JW; who could put up with such perfectionist asshole?! Last I heard, also years ago, he had moved to California, changed his name and might not even be a JW anymore. That one sure was hated by many a body of elders during that time.
There are other gems now in the Spanish Circuit down here in Southeast Florida: One a dictator, the other one a closeted homo, both with stepford wives whom surely by this time know who they married and feel somewhat ashamed for them as they can see the other JWs know... ohhh, we sure know.
COs... our 'paid clergy'. No love or respect here for them.
DY
 +6 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
out of all the ones I ever met over the years one or two I can say were ok, and thats it just ok, Danny Owens was a mild decent guy and David Carter DO was funny because he was a very charismatic speaker, the rest were jumped up, hypochondriacal,pompous, judgemental and generally just a pain in the butt, even the elders hated them. No melancholic reminiscing from me. What do you call a 100 CO's at the bottom of the sea? a start
 +1 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 13 days ago

From my reading of many posts over the years, it appears that the higher up you went in the organization the more you were exposed to the scheming, cover ups and manipulations, therefore anyone that high up undoubtedly knew there were hugh problems in the organization, but chose to say nothing, instead contributing to the lies and cover-ups, simply to maintain their status in the organization. How many were unfairly disfellowshipped on their watch? How much child sexual abuse did they cover up? How much were they aware of the suicide risks? What lies did they knowingly tell?
So, no, I do not feel sorry for them.

 +16 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 13 days ago

I found that growing up, in the old days 60's and 70's the COs could be very nice men. In later years 08' onward, a good 99% of them were arrogant, scrounging, self serving, company men pigs.
The arrogance and hubris filters down from those in control. Judge the GB by the vileness of the scum they send out to the congregations.
 +9 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
punky! "scrounging" LOL I've never heard that before
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 13 days ago

With zero Holy Spirit leading the WTBTS, you will get a mixed bag of COs. Like BOEs, you have good and bad individuals.
Ultimately, it's all more bad than good, because a few nice personalities will never offset the pseudo-spiritual corporate structure of the WTBTS. The best case scenario is that you get a decent guy who visits every 6 months. Visiting one week, every 6 months, is not enough to make any real impact. Then if the CO is nice, he's moved after a couple of years.
The WTBTS doesn't seem to want any real connection to be made between the sheeple and the CO. They just want the sheeple to have a slightly warm and fuzzy feeling every so often, but they don't want human connections made.
Just imagine if a nice CO could actually be trusted with real feelings about the corruption in the WTBTS. The WTBTS went to great lengths to go corporate, they do not want to go back to the days of independent congregations.
DD
 +5 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 13 days ago

Doubtfully Yours



I concur with your opinion of Rene Ramirez, maybe the worse that I have ever seen; maybe a little bit "loco". He changed his name to some weird name, the last that I heard from him he was retired prior to the big change; went to Puerto Rico or Costa Rica and I heard that he was asking the friends for some help with relocation money.



Thanks

 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 13 days ago

I literally have no feelings for COs, DOs.
I didn't know many, and I knew none well.
Never mind ...
 +2 / -0
Magwitch
Magwitch 13 days ago

Most were your typical big fish in a microscopic pond. They would have amounted to "below average" in the real world.
There was one CO that stood out in my JW career. He was Lebanese (Had served in Lebanon during much unrest) and was truly just a slave for the society. He and his wife pulled a 6 ft camper that they lived in. It did not even have a bed, just 2 benches for the table. Those benches, with 1 inch green cushions, were the master bedroom suite (and this couple was not young). Whatever money the brothers gave him during the week, he would take that amount off of his weekly congregation expenses. He would never, ever take gas money even though he always drove. He had little personality, just a desire to serve his god in the only way he knew how.
 +4 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 13 days ago

I hear a lot of negativity concerning the COs and somehow, I personally feel just the opposite. Most of these people have made great deal of sacrifices for the WT believing they are doing the right thing.
◦Most of them live constantly on the road with minimal possessions.
◦They officially have as many holidays as the béthelite, which is less than most of the working populations in developed countries.
◦For the brother, most of the meetings, he has to give a talk… he can’t just sit back and enjoy his program.
◦They have to deal with a great deal of people who are emotionally unhinged.
◦The time they spend with their friends, family and personal past time is greatly limited.
◦Most of them don’t have kids; they gave that up for the WT.
◦They have no social security: If one of them falls sick, they won’t be looked after for too long by the WT and they know this.
◦They constantly have to visit people over lunch and supers
◦Not enough money to put aside for anything. Vow of poverty.
Considering the above, I was always amazed at the amount of faith (or should I say, delusion) necessary for these couples to keep doing what they were with a smile on their face.

Bad COs? I’ve seen some who annoyed me, however, considering the above, not enough to characterize them as bad people.

If I find anything to complain about, it is at the WT, which I feel, lacks respect in the way they are using these devoted people.
 +5 / -5
Pistoff
Pistoff 13 days ago

The good ones were moderate, and had feelings for the fellowship.
But boy the bad ones were really bad, rule mongers, dictators and even tyrants.
See my past rants about the worst CO ever, Jack Thomas.
Corrupt, bullying, POS.
 +2 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
was Jack Thomas in the UK Pistoff?
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 13 days ago

PUNK: I found that growing up, in the old days 60's and 70's the COs could be very nice men. In later years 08' onward, a good 99% of them were arrogant, scrounging, self serving, company men pigs.
Punk's comment is right on with my thoughts about former COs/DOs. I recall the majority of them from years ago being grandfatherly figures who had some experience and compassion. So too when we had our young children some 25 years ago, but in more recent times the COs have all been young, self-righteous "company men" who are there to protect the assets of the WTS far more than anything they do in behalf of the R&F JW.
Doc

 +4 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 13 days ago

Sorry, but a paid "clergy class" (which is what they are) in the Jehovah's Witness religion is simply UNSUSTAINABLE!
All the more so since the Witnesses have discouraged their members from getting a college education, having a career and even criticizing members who have full-time jobs!
Whether these overseers were nice or not is not the point:.. the fact is they were being supported.
As if that were not enough, the Witness religion has others looking to "get into the act" of getting handouts, namely, Pioneers and other rank & file who live on the edge. This WHOLE mentality is unrealistic and unsustainable.
In a Protestant religion there is a minister who is supported by the congregation. In the Witness religion, they ALL think they are "ministers", and as such, imagine they are entitled to handouts...Ridiculous!!!
As somebody who was considered "unspiritual" because I had a full-time job, I would NEVER give money to any of these people.
So, if these former overseers are having a hard time adjusting to the REAL world, they have my condolences. But, the system in that religion could not last forever!!
 +3 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd 13 days ago

Trust me Renee Ramirez would be a novice compared to Hans Hubler. That guy was the king of A/hole. From the platform during the assembly he would give orders to remove sisters with crying babies.He was notoriously known for it, and was there on one occasion to witness it. The guy was just so obnoxious and poisonous I'm surprised even Wt put up with his antics for as long as they did.
 +4 / -0

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Your feelings for the former travelling overseers
by Hecce 13 days ago 39 Replies latest 5 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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kairos
kairos 13 days ago

Paul Kohler has been 'serving' the circuit that takes in Napa, Fairfield and Vacaville, Cal for some time now.
I should record some of his future talks over the phone.
He sounds defeated. He's getting old and all of the congs he visits has a similar problem, Elders dying off.

He did one of those, 'we're proud of our years in the truth' moments last time.
"How many of you have been baptized for 5, years, 10, 20, 30, " so on and so on. I think that backfired last time, because many in my wife's hall are in the 40-50 years "in the truth" bracket.
Kohler realized he's not alone in the delusion. He sees the faces of the elderly sheep he barely knows and has to keep secrets from them or the whole house of cards collapses. So he's ramped up the DFing 'decree', as he calls it. He also likes to use the term 'being put out' of the organization.
His talks are littered with FOG. Fear , obligation and guilt.
The programming is doing it's job and it is sickening.
Someone actually mentioned coming into the org right before 1975 in their comments while he was visiting. They know they've all been duped. Overlapping generations, 102 years after the birth of the kingdom doesn't build confidence, does it?
Yes, the same Paul Kohler of Menlo Park fame...
 +4 / -0
MrsR-Awaken
MrsR-Awaken 13 days ago
My brother in law (married to my sister) happens to be a CO now they bearly started their service, and he is a type a person that goes by the book so yes he is a Watchtower puppet in deed. My sister is also to involve in being a jw but I some times think she wanted him to get the CO position just for the fact of being on the top and being praised not to mention living in a nice apt without having to work for it and having the congregation pay for u all the time. Why do I say this? Cause I know her and in the conventions she will never let me in to the places were all the high Loosers were all cause I was nothing but a simple publisher so that makes me think she was all stuck up about being a CO Substitutes wife. I hated that of her. Now that they finally got called in for the CO position I bet her attitude will get worse...as to my brother in law idk but I really don't give them long in this position, they will see some shit in the long run and I can't wait to talk about it here cause I will ask her when I see her lol
 +7 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
the elder who chaired my JC is a CO has been for a few years, decent man TBH and a friend of the family for many years, he helped me out a lot during my JC and helped me through it, I was ready to throw in the towel he saw it was a fit up, he said he would help the appeal JC turn the decision around, he was right I beat the original decision to DF, often wonder about him.
 +5 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago
I don't feel sorry for the travelling overseers at all.
 +4 / -0
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 13 days ago
My feelings toward former and present C.O.s......I've known my share of past and present 'A-Hole' C.O.s!
 +2 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago
Yup, I hear you Gone Bad!!!!
 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 13 days ago

Although I didn't know many I do remember one CO in a SE London circuit: Alan Stokes.
He was quite a large built guy and he had a big, booming voice.
Used to sing the songs as if he were Pavarotti.
Me and a mate were sitting in the front row and CO Stokes was giving it some on the platform, blasting out the lyrics. Me and the other brother burst out in laughter at this.
After the closing prayer, Stokes came up to us and told us off about our laughter. He said he felt like punching us and if he wasn't a JW he said he'd have done that.
 +9 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
Stokes, I remember him, a real character, remember his special coat with all those special pockets full of books for the FS so he didn't carry a briefcase
 +4 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 13 days ago

A few observations based on the comments.
It is possible that in some third world countries the travelling overseers might be living a life of poverty and sacrifice, that is not the case in most advanced places; in reality is a life of privilege.
The majority of them might start their service with good intentions and a sincere desire of helping their brothers, but power is a dangerous thing and after a while they change for the worse.
I read about a relative of a poster starting their full time life in the Circuit, if he was my relative I will tell him to enjoy it while he can but not to put all his eggs in one basket. The WT is not to be trusted and who knows when his day might come.
 +3 / -0
truthlover
truthlover 12 days ago

Gone were the days that CO/DO's had to eke out a living -- stayed in homes, worked hard in service, eating at a different home and sleeping in different beds, accepting little monies from the folks who had little, Wives who for the sake of the word, put up with all the changes - men accommodate these changes far better than a woman....
Today we see, arrogance, company boys, hardliners, youthful , toeing the party line, speaking with the same monotone voice as those at bethel, driving new cars, charging back congregations, insurance plans, apartments in KH or one just having at $250,000.00 apt addition to the hall - looks like something out of a Better Homes book
And with the green handshakes, many have more money in the bank that most poor publishers, along with some rental apartments for their pension years.... tell me about it!!!
 +3 / -0
talesin
talesin 12 days ago

I can only go with my gut as a child/teen, but the name Grant Suiter (sp?) makes me kinda nauseous. THen there was Levi. *shivers* There was a Wally Drury, either he or his brother was a CO or DO at one time, he seemed a good person. Owned a large cleaning business, and employed some of us by contract - well paid. I was making about $20 / hour (by contract, but I was a good and fast worker) as a young teen - a small piece of a large contract he had, which was an hour after school, then in the evenings once school was no longer part of my life, and gave me some economic freedom, after my educational freedom was taken away.
They weren't all bad people, but I would hazard to guess that the 'middle management' has grown more harsh and bitter since the early 1970s. After all, $h*t rolls downhill, and before it reaches the congo, it splats all over the COs and DOs. Pathetic, but it's their choice. *shrugs* I really feel bad for anyone who is staying in for family, children; it's a hard row to hoe, and I understand why. Chin up, you have lots of support here. xx
 +3 / -0
baldeagle
baldeagle 12 days ago

LisaRose: “From my reading of many posts over the years, it appears that the higher up you went in the organization the more you were exposed to the scheming, cover ups and manipulations, therefore anyone that high up undoubtedly knew there were huge problems in the organization, but chose to say nothing, instead contributing to the lies and cover-ups, simply to maintain their status in the organization. How many were unfairly disfellowshipped on their watch? How much child sexual abuse did they cover up? How much were they aware of the suicide risks? What lies did they knowingly tell? So, no, I do not feel sorry for them.”
Touché LisaRose so eloquently summed up.
Some might remember a long time DO, Wayne Johnson one arrogant, egotistical, piece of work. Never saw him crack a smile a total “company man.” He sure liked to strut around the assembly hall. All his ass kissing minions would capitulate to his every command.
Also a CO named Jack Brodie old school type wanted everyone to agree no matter what he said. He had a bully like attitude. Don’t know where these two are today.
Good riddance to them all. They are all getting just what they deserve. No sympathy from me.

 +2 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 12 days ago

For me it was difficult to understand the degree of cooperation between the CO and his buddy at the service desk. We had one particular guy whose mission, was circuit after circuit to dismantle the experienced elders.
From his first visit he started an underground campaign against the senior elders in the body, and by his third visit he had created a net around them and was ready for their removal.
Eventually the elders in the circuit got wind of what he was doing and started fighting back, this resulted in his entire tenure being fight after fight.
 +1 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 12 days ago

I can't recall EVER a CO taking an interest in the average/lowly JW (unless they have money). If you weren't a Elder, MS, Pioneer or someone with a title they couldn't give a rats ass about you.
Some come in the congregation with their list of foods they can't eat and their demands. I have demands too but I have to work to pay my bills and have a family to raise. No time for demands in everyday life.
They latch on to the ones who have money, pick up the dinner tab and an open bar. Poolside would be nice too. We've seen that first hand.
 +2 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 11 days ago

I had a good experience with a young couple in the circuit work, at one time we were supposed to rehearse for a Convention and gathered at their place. It was a group of about 6 brothers, after the rehearsal we were very surprised when all of us were invited to dine with them, the sister said that she was following her family custom that whoever visits their place has to eat with them.
They were the exception
 +1 / -0
tiki
tiki 10 days ago
Too many of them were out of touch with reality. They didn't get what working for a living, maintaing a home and balancing other activities meant. In order to really understand the congregants they should have had to live the life they did....have a job, take care of themselves....the life of dependence on the support and generosity of others seems very selfish and unrealistic.
 
stillin
stillin 10 days ago

Now and then you get a good one. One particular DO called ahead to the local PO and asked whether there were any currently inactive ones who might want to go out in FS with him. He actually called my home the week before his visit and asked me himself what I thought of the idea.
I turned him down because it was never about titles to me, but still, it was a nice gesture on his part.
Other than an occasional exception, the rest were company men. I think that these days they are oriented toward delivering "decrees" to the BOE rather than any actual mingling with the riffraff.
 +2 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 10 days ago

Before the WT took over the expenses for transportation and medical for the CO's, it was abusive the amounts that the congregations and circuits used to pay for that. As far as the auto, it was the personal ownership of the brother, it needed replacement like every 3 year. If your circuit was in a well off area; the purchase of the car was going to be your circuit's duty with considerable expense for the brothers.
Many abuses and fights due to those expenses.
 
dropoffyourkeylee
dropoffyourkeylee 10 days ago
We had a DO and wife stay with us for a week back in the 70s. Actually I felt sorry for the wife, she was really lonely and unhappy. Unlike the CO, who returned to the same congregations and got to know people, the DOs never got to know anyone , as they kept moving between circuits. Really a lonely life back then
 
Hecce
Hecce 5 days ago
I remember that some of the sisters in the circuit work were suffering with breast cancer. It seems that the frequency was higher that normal.
 

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Topic Summary
during our wt life we met a good number of friends involved in the circuit and district work.
i am sure that we share the same experience and that we remember fondly some that we caring, loving and generally interested in the brothers.
at the same time we might remember others that were arrogant, selfish, abusive and oppressive.



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Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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millie210
40
Who Picks The Governing Body?
by millie210 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 days ago
hey everyone,.

just a simple straight forward question on exactly what the process is.

if a gb member died tomorrow, do the remaining ones choose who gets to be next?.

Beth Sarim
millie210
millie210
10 days ago
deanxxx
11
All JWs need to watch this great documentary...it may give them pause for thought.
by deanxxx in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 days ago
i know how hard it is to awaken people still inside the cult bubble.

there are many reasons for this, chief among them the unwillingness to read or watch anything critical of their religion.

on the other hand, jws love few things more than hearing bad stuff about other faith groups.

Pete Zahut
kjg132
deanxxx
12 days ago
Phaedra
18
Evolution, fine. Still a missiion....
by Phaedra in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
i buy into the theory of evolution.. where does it's "mission" to do what it does (programming) come from?.

Ruby456
slimboyfat
Ruby456
11 days ago
Theburstbubble
21
NWT...how accurate?
by Theburstbubble in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
i'm sorry if i'm covering old ground here.

but is the nwt bible a credible translation of the scriptures?

i'm not asking if you believe in the bible or not.

slimboyfat
TD
TTWSYF
10 days ago
Flg8ter
37
Memorial 2016
by Flg8ter in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
the memorial is on march 23 this year.

but all the official jewish calendars has nissan 14 as april 22!

april 22 is the start of passover!

Beth Sarim
redpilltwice
St George of England
11 days ago
Terry
8
FORENSIC ANALYSIS: The Governing Body as Lying Liars who Lie
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
pattern of excuses.

example #1. blame the bible !.

proclaimer's book*** jv chap.

TheOldHippie
Terry
Atlantis
12 days ago
Terry
18
A frothy question ABOUT DEMONS
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
have you ever been to a circus and seen a "clown car"?.

the little "bug" volkswagon drives out and clowns get out.

lots and lots and lots and lots of clowns!.

Terry
eyeuse2badub
Terry
11 days ago
the girl next door
1
Blogger advocates research but still duped by JW(Org)
by the girl next door in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/02/the_truth_about_the_pope_jehov.html.

little old lady: "oh.

well, that's all right, i guess.

elderINewton
13 days ago
Hecce
39
Your feelings for the former travelling overseers
by Hecce in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
during our wt life we met a good number of friends involved in the circuit and district work.

i am sure that we share the same experience and that we remember fondly some that we caring, loving and generally interested in the brothers.

at the same time we might remember others that were arrogant, selfish, abusive and oppressive.

Hecce
dropoffyourkeylee
Hecce
5 days ago
lriddle80
5
Daily Text calling themselves out!
by lriddle80 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
so, my dad posts the daily text everyday on fb.

this seems like hiding in plain sight to me!!

thursday, february 25 from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.—acts 20:30. sadly, the original christian congregation gradually became corrupted.

stuckinarut2
prologos
Vidiot
12 days ago
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You would think they would be embarrassed
by stillin 14 days ago 6 Replies latest 12 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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stillin
stillin 14 days ago

To tout the fact that Jesus Christ is the Head of the congregation is fine... If he was. A quick glance at the page in the back of the current study WT seems to say otherwise. If you recall, they print up a page at the end of every year with a quick rundown of the articles for the previous year.
Surprise! There is a heading for Jesus Christ and it is the tiniest section on the page, barely a nod in the direction of their Exemplar.
I guess there are more important things to talk about.
 +3 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 14 days ago
When I started waking up, I would read the Bible during meetings. In the new testament Jesus has equal or more representation with the father. I would read Jesus, Father, Jesus, Christ, our Lord, Jesus, God, Jesus...and then listen for a while and never hear Jesus. First doctrinal realization for me that something was definitely not right! Edit: I'm remembering now that an elder I mentioned this to told me that the society was trying to get people to mention Jesus more, and you will see him in the literature but people don't catch on in their talks and comments. I remember thinking, it's too stinking late, they have neglected him too long, no way can they be real christians. But your observation, still in, about last year's articles prove that they actually haven't changed at all, not even in their publications.
 +2 / -0
Billy1000
Billy1000 13 days ago

I believe it is common in most religions to miss the big picture, every talk, exhortation or lecture should come back to God, Jesus or his teachings
If you believe in the bible like i do, those are the fundamentals, but you can get buried under the subjects (like dress code, songs to sing, etc) which are not leading to our salvation.

 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 13 days ago
To be fair, though, even their God Jehovah defers to the Governing Body. You can't get more arrogant than that.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 12 days ago
Pretty sure they're insulated from any kind of feedback that would trigger embarassment.
 +1 / -0
Tenacious
Tenacious 12 days ago

The GB has all but taken the role of God and apparently their Son has been very bad that they have indefinitely punished Him and threw him in the closet with no food.
Let's take for example the recent book based on Jesus titled "Jesus, The Way, the Truth, the Life".
Christ is King right now. He's been given authority over everything even the angels for all to serve Him. So how does the GB portray their King? They put Jesus on an ass. For those that are awake the message is loud and clear, "Jesus may be King but this is what we really think of Him, he's an ass."
Now the average JW may look at the book like they view every other book that is introduced and think wow another good hearty spiritual meal. But to those that are awake, the cover picture was nothing less than a despicable representation of our King Christ.
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 12 days ago
They are not embarrassed, in the silver sword Jesus' name is not in the Glossary of Bible Terms whereas Jehovah is and also Jacob and Judah. Satan and Devil are also listed. 
 +2 / -0

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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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FormerlySandL
FormerlySandL 13 days ago

I never thought I would admit it, but I don't.
I might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart I really don't believe in God.
As a human I could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.
The idea of him watching this but not doing anything about it until an appointed time or because it would prove satan right is cruel beyond measure. Especially because if anybody is ill in the congregation they pray for that person so expect God to answer this prayers but not some innocent child being beaten or sexually abused.
A few months ago I never thought I'd say anything like that.
 +17 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Good morning Formerly,
If you sincerely do not believe, then that is your belief - but if your disbelief is due to your experience with the watchtower and world events, I would ask you - please - to take a moment before your statement becomes entrenched defensivism.
I can show you why God does not - and cannot - intervene in badness. Would that make a difference to you? If so, you have my PMs - just contact me.
Acts5v29
 +1 / -8
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 13 days ago

Hi FormerlySandL,
Its a huge thing in ones life - letting go of a personal God. For myself I was pretty bewildered at first. I then experienced all the stages one would expect during the process: Anger, sadness, depression and later finally acceptance.
Then the fun started: I got to try to figure out my purpose in life and what its meaning is. It was the first time I could really start to seriously poke at the big questions and I was allowed to come to my own conclusions. I have never looked back.
In reflection there is still one Biblical saying that I give serious consideration to: The truth WILL set you free.
Only this time I get to decide what truth it is and what it means to me.
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 13 days ago

The God of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was not a very likeable being.
Bloodthirsty, petty, ok with incest and racist to start the list....
 +7 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago


I can show you why God does not - and cannot - intervene in badness. Would that make a difference to you?
It would make a difference to me - go ahead.

 +6 / -0
2+2=5
2+2=5 13 days ago

I can show you why God does not - and cannot - intervene in badness. Would that make a difference to you? If so, you have my PMs - just contact me.

That would make a huge difference for me! Instead of sending a pm, why not post your evidence here on this thread?
I've currently no faith, so let's start with God. What's his name, where does he live, and how can I contact him?
 +7 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago

when these discussions come up I like to post this meme , Acts5v, are you going to bang on about the sovereignty issue between God and the Devil, basically a dick waving competition where us mere innocent human beings are caught up in the middle of this stupid game as pawns?
 +7 / -1
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Hi nicolaou,
Context is everything. You don't operate on a broken pelvis of someone who would not survive the anaesthetic, you don't insult a man who's holding a knife to your child's throat, you don't break a rule to win a game.
Though omnipotent, God's actions are within a context - that of the theme of the Bible, which roughly states:
"Man cannot survive without God's help"
- that is what lies behind Man's going independent from God.
God could have simply wiped the early ones out and started again - but that would not have proved His contention, which was goaded by the adversary. So Man became independent, and that issue has to prove itself - God's intervention would only violate the terms. God cannot intervene until Mankind learns that it cannot survive on its own, and actually calls to Him for help - but although close, and closing, we have not yet reached that stage.
Were God to intervene in a small way - heal a famine, abate a war, remove some dictator - we would rely on it and never actually learn, and God would become a kind of on-call fixer rather than the Father He should be. Besides that, were he to intervene, then one religion / race / nation / side would claim they had received his blessing, and other sides would only fight to avoid looking small.
So until Mankind calls for help, the famines and tortures and slaughters and evil will go unabated - and we are not yet ready to make the call!
More importantly... if God were to intervene, then the adversary could claim legitimately that God broke the rules in order to win, and taint Him as ruling by cheating. Again, He could just kill the adversary, but what would that prove to the rest of creation? Any intervention will mean that we never have God as our Father - that is what's at stake; we will just have independence which we are too short-sighted to handle properly, more torture, more killings, more mess... with absolutely no prospect of things being better. Omnipotent yes, but there is a knife to our throat, and God will not put us at risk.
If you want to know hen we will call - it is the theme of the Bible and has nothing to do with religion or belief, easy to understand by believers and non-believers, and I can point you to it.
sincerely,
Acts5v29

 +1 / -7
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 13 days ago

2+2=5 you wrote: I've currently no faith, so let's start with God. What's his name, where does he live, and how can I contact him?
Joe Pesci. Hollywood California. Via his Facebook fan club page. He might not answer though, he's usually busy
 +3 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Hello jookbeard,
I'm sure some of the Hebrews said the same during their 400 years in Egypt, but the issue is the issue.

 
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
yes but god fucked up with the test given to Adam and Eve they were destined to fail, trillions to one on they would fail as they had no appreciation of the consequences of their actions, fail from God, the Devil never made the test.
 +4 / -2
2+2=5
2+2=5 13 days ago

Joe Pesci. Hollywood California. Via his Facebook fan club page. He might not answer though, he's usually busy

The most feasible description of God I've heard yet. You are a spiritual man.
 +4 / -1
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 13 days ago

Hi Acts5v29 you wrote: ""Man cannot survive without God's help"
Aren't humans clocking over 7 billion and climbing?
At this point that's the one thing we seem to be good at.
Besides that, were he to intervene, then one religion / race / nation / side would claim they had received his blessing, and other sides would only fight to avoid looking small.
Wait a minute. Didn't He do that already with the Israelites? So He has no problem with the idea.
More importantly... if God were to intervene, then the adversary could claim legitimately that God broke the rules in order to win, and taint Him as ruling by cheating.
But according to the Bible he had not problem intervening when it suited him. That's until modern recording equipment was invented and then he totally disappeared. Seems He's a bit camera shy.
 +10 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  13 days ago

Good morning FormlySandL,
I was never a JW, only introduced to the religion by the"Elder". I gave up on religion totally 16 years ago as they are all man made. I believe in God and I am very spiritual. About 40 years ago I asked a very similar question to your OP when I lost my first son. The best advise I received was a book, When Bad Things Happen To Good People by Harold Kushner.
It has helped me over the years to remember that God is not responsible for what goes on in our lives but is there to walk with us through our good times and lean on through our struggles.
I also have hanging on the wall in my bedroom a poem which I read every morning and night. It has been made into a song by an American country singer.
Footprints in the Sand
BTW, welcome to the forum and good luck to the rest of your life cult free I am sure it will be wonderful. This forum helped me a lot when the "elder" said good bye have a nice life after 5 years. With no warning, nothing just a bloody email.
 
2+2=5
2+2=5 13 days ago

So God DOES cares for us!
It's just that, it feels exactly the same as if he didn't really exist at all and doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything. Right. Got it.
 +9 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 13 days ago

God could have simply wiped the early ones out and started again - but that would not have proved His contention, which was goaded by the adversary. So Man became independent, and that issue has to prove itself - God's intervention would only violate the terms. God cannot intervene until Mankind learns that it cannot survive on its own
-Acts5v29
◦What about when God drowned almost everyone on the planet in the flood, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about the tower of Babel when God confused all the languages and spread everyone apart, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about when God helped Judah kill 500,000 men, wasn't that intervention (2 Chronicles 13:15)?
◦What about when he killed all the firstborn (including babies) in Egypt, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about when God ordered the genocide of the Midianites, Amalekites, the people of Heshbon, and the people of Bashan - wasn't that intervention (1 Samuel 15:1-9, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 3:3-7, Deuteronomy 2:32-35)?
◦What about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about God sending two bears to maul children to death for calling Elisha bald, wasn't that intervention (2 Kings 2:23)?
◦What about God giving Jeptha victory over the Ammonites on the condition that he sacrifice his daughter, wasn't that intervention (Judges 11:30-39)?
◦What about God giving Samson strength so he can kill 30 men for their clothes, wasn't that intervention (Judges 14:11-19)?
◦etc.
.
Clearly God can intervene to cause destruction and death. And it's not just humans that experience suffering. It's also animals that suffer and die too. What about them?
 +9 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago


Were God to intervene in a small way - heal a famine, abate a war, remove some dictator - we would rely on it and never actually learn
Ah! I see! So all those rapes and murders, all the little children who've been bent over and violated by the most depraved, diseased and violent men, all that starvation, illness, fear and depression - that's all worth it to prove how much we need our Heavenly Father?
You know, when I was a new Dad my little boy was about to put his fingers through the grille of an electric heater. I could've snatched him away in an instant but no, I let him place his toddler fingers onto the red hot elements. Oh, he screamed and the smell was awful. Lots of skin came away when I finally decided to pull him free and his hand is now disfigured for life - but what a lesson he learned.
He needs me, what a good father I am.

 +15 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

nicolaou et al,
I'm sure you can see the point and the issue really. If we understand it, then we don't feel torn to pieces when we see evil in the world, but if you really want an excuse to cast aspersions at God, you can reason as you are doing.
Nevertheless, when the climate crisis causes such disruption that we cannot cope, we will try every avenue in order to live - and the last one will be to call to God for help, as everyone does at some time. That time, when our entire race is threatened and the entire world's authorities call for help, that is when the issue of "Man cannot survive alone" will have been proved, and God's intervention will prove the second part - that God can make that survival happen.
So please if you wish: enjoy your mud-slinging - all it costs you is peace of mind and your willingness to reason.
 +0 / -13
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago
People like you are a blight. The world is outgrowing your ignorance and evil-twisted mentality. Enjoy what little time you have left you sad, little crusader . .

 +11 / -4
Bonsai
Bonsai 13 days ago
Amen Nicolaou. Willingness to reason? It's people like Acts that convinces me there is no God. Not if her delusional ravings are the best that God has to offer mankind. It's as if he/she/it has never read the OT before...

 +4 / -0

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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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cobweb
cobweb 13 days ago




The God of the Hebrew Bible is like an abusive husband. God didn't want Israel to do well without him or be independent of him and punished it when it tried.
Amos Chapter 4







6 “I gave you empty stomachs in every city and lack of bread in every town, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.
7 “I also withheld rain from you when the harvest was still three months away. I sent rain on one town, but withheld it from another. One field had rain; another had none and dried up.
8 People staggered from town to town for water but did not get enough to drink, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.
9 “Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards, destroying them with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.
10 “I sent plagues among you as I did to Egypt. I killed your young men with the sword, along with your captured horses. I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.
11 “I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.
12 “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God.”
13 He who forms the mountains, who creates the wind, and who reveals his thoughts to mankind, who turns dawn to darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD God Almighty is his name.
 +4 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  13 days ago

I have 2 questions for you to think about, I am not looking for answers:
If God had created Religion how many would there honestly be?
Who wrote the Bible and how do you really know that it is the word of God? Do you really think a loving and caring God would want all the hate and fighting that is in the Old Testament?
 +7 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 13 days ago

I no longer believe in god. I cannot see any evidence for such a creature. I refer to Mr Sagan:-
“A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage.”

Suppose … I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you’d want to check it out, see for yourself….

“Show me,” you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle—but no dragon.

“Where’s the dragon?” you ask.

“Oh, she’s right here,” I reply, waving vaguely. “I neglected to mention that she’s an invisible dragon.”

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon’s footprints.

“Good idea,” I say, “but this dragon floats in the air.”

Then you’ll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

“Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless.”

You’ll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

“Good idea, except she’s an incorporeal dragon and the paint won’t stick.”

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work.

Now, what’s the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there’s no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it is true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I’m asking you do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The only thing you’ve really learned from my insistence that there’s a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You’d wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I’ve seriously underestimated human fallibility….

Now another scenario: Suppose it’s not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you’re pretty sure don’t know each other, all tell you they have dragons in their garages—but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we’re disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I’d rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren’t myths after all…

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they’re never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself: On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon’s fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such “evidence”—no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it—is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

—Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
 +8 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 13 days ago

Which God(s)?



Unless someone presents credible evidence that their specific God exists and presents evidence (not claims) for all the properties this God supposedly has, I do not believe in any gods.
So far I noticed believers apparently only present arguments why their (or any) God could or might exist, or something along the lines of "you can only believe it if you first believe it". Thanks, but no thanks.



And yes, this is the complete opposite of what I believed to be true for most of my life.
 +6 / -0
JACOB Meza
JACOB Meza 13 days ago

If I were you, I would read books on both side of the spectrum of belief. Get both sides of the opinion,
The book 'I don't have enough faith to be an atheist' was amazing.
Then pick up a well known atheist book, maybe something from a well known atheist.
Trust me, a forum won't get you anywhere. You have to set aside emotion for this topic.
 +4 / -0
2+2=5
2+2=5 13 days ago

I gave the last comment from nicolaou 1 like but only becuase I couldn't give it 10000 likes.
 +3 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

nicolaou,

evil-twisted mentality.
?

 +0 / -2
lriddle80
lriddle80 13 days ago
I believe in God! I have seen him work in my life. Call it coincidence if you'd like. And, to be trite, if I die believing in a God that didn't exist, I lived with hope, joy, purpose, and adventure. That doesn't seem too bad. Have you read any CS Lewis books?
 +4 / -0
KateWild
KateWild 13 days ago

I pray to my milk everyday. The answer is always yes, no or wait.
Seriously though I do believe in a creator, but I don't think he cares about us,
Kate xx
 +3 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Good afternoon Iriddle80,
I think we'd both admit there is something of a fear of hearing God being mentioned - not fear of Him, but of enticing others into vulnerability again. I'm sure we can both appreciate that - but it would be nice if people could see that God is not at fault, but the horrible religions. There's room enough here for all reasonable sides.
 +2 / -1
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago

Yes Acts, you have an evil, twisted mentality. You excuse the nastiest, sadistic perversions on the grounds that we will learn from them just how much we need God.
Here in the UK the headlines are all about Jimmy Saville, a predatory child abuser who used his celebrity and fame at the BBC to sexually abuse children as young as eight. In your perverted world view those poor children have done us a service in showing us how much we need God - a God who presumably sat and watched every horrific act Saville performed.
Shame should prevent you from posting your vile philosophy on a forum which has had to help several victims of abuse from men who claimed to represent your God.
Go away, get educated and do something worthwhile with your life.
 +8 / -3
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago
I invite you Acts to comment on The Monster . .
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 13 days ago
You lost your belief in a weekend?
 +0 / -1
juandefiero
juandefiero 13 days ago

◦What about when God drowned almost everyone on the planet in the flood, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about the tower of Babel when God confused all the languages and spread everyone apart, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about when God helped Judah kill 500,000 men, wasn't that intervention (2 Chronicles 13:15)?
◦What about when he killed all the firstborn (including babies) in Egypt, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about when God ordered the genocide of the Midianites, Amalekites, the people of Heshbon, and the people of Bashan - wasn't that intervention (1 Samuel 15:1-9, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 3:3-7, Deuteronomy 2:32-35)?
◦What about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about God sending two bears to maul children to death for calling Elisha bald, wasn't that intervention (2 Kings 2:23)?
◦What about God giving Jeptha victory over the Ammonites on the condition that he sacrifice his daughter, wasn't that intervention (Judges 11:30-39)?
◦What about God giving Samson strength so he can kill 30 men for their clothes, wasn't that intervention (Judges 14:11-19)?
◦etc.
.
Clearly God can intervene to cause destruction and death. And it's not just humans that experience suffering. It's also animals that suffer and die too. What about them?
Notice how Acts5v29 never responded to that comment.
 +7 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago
The pirate makes a good point!
 +2 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Respectfully nicolaou, I do not excuse any evil actions - certainly not people like Saville or other silent lambs - nor do I give them license to act the way they do.
You wanted to know why God cannot intervene, so I showed you - and people like Saville are taking full advantage. Until authority in the earth is returned to God, these things will have free reign - its up to the world's leaders to make the call to Him when they feel we cannot cope any longer

 +0 / -2
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago

Please take the few minutes it takes to read The Monster and tell me where my metaphor fails . .
You are excusing evil actions - willful failure to prevent atrocities is an evil action.
 +1 / -1
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 13 days ago

Hey Acts5v29, the Bible is a collection of books written over 1500 years by 40 different authors. This "theme" you speak of is a construct as they had no collaborative effort in writing these hand picked "books" compiled by power hungry dogmatists in 375 A.D.. This is hardly a foundation for divine inspiration. Seems like you are another weak willed bible thumper in the millennialist/Adventist tradition. So that would be a no for me.

 +4 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 13 days ago

Do I still believe in God? The simple answer is no.

Gods and Goddesses are human constructs from ancient Bronze and Iron Aged peoples trying to define their worlds.
Our knowledge has surpassed the requirement to believe in fantasy, mythology, and superstition as truth. I find it interesting that as our knowledge has increased, the instances of God speaking to humans has decreased proportionately, to the point where it is now only relegated to those who suffer from mental or auditory hallucinations.

 +3 / -0
cappytan
cappytan 13 days ago
Isn't the Bible itself evidence of God intervening?
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Respectfully nicolaou, as I've already shown, intervention before the due time will ensure that those evil actions continue without end.
If you do not like the idea of God, then be my guest - don't believe in Him - but do not slander Him or me in your angst

 +3 / -7
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

I cant say I believe in a god(s) but I understand why the writings in the bible were done so with their expressive intent of why they were written. Human ignorance is an undeniably observable fact within the history of mankind..

The endeavoring attempt to connect with the heavenly agents to help mankind with all of its endearing perils has been going on for very long time as this still goes on to this day.
I certainly do not believe that there is one singular person or a group of men who self proclaim that they have been selectively chosen by a heavenly agent as spiritual connected seers, as what can be observed in the JW religion.

 +1 / -0
juandefiero
juandefiero 13 days ago

Respectfully nicolaou, as I've already shown, intervention before the due time will ensure that those evil actions continue without end.
If you do not like the idea of God, then be my guest - don't believe in Him - but do not slander Him or me in your angst
Why haven't you answered the question about God intervening like he did in the Bible?
Just explain ONE. The Flood. If you've shown God can't intervene, why did he intervene in Noah's day?
I guess God can't break his rules (except when he breaks his rules) but when he breaks those rules, he's not really breaking the rules because he makes the rules to begin with.
 +5 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Good afternoon WasanElderOnce,

Hey Acts5v29, the Bible is a collection of books written over 1500 years by 40 different authors. This "theme" you speak of is a construct as they had no collaborative effort in writing these hand picked "books" compiled by power hungry dogmatists in 375 A.D..

The theme I spoke of is from one scripture - Genesis 2:17 - which basically declares that Mankind would come to its demise if it were to go independent from God. One scripture, the entire theme.
The climate crisis is proving we cannot survive, and God's intervention will prove th second part of that prophecy - one scripture, the entire theme. The combining of the Tanakh with the later books is not an issue here.

 +0 / -4
theliberator
theliberator 13 days ago
I most certainly do. But after leaving the Watchtower, I learned quickly that I never knew what real faith was. The Watchtower is a loud voice that screams day and night. Due to group dynamics, and the apparent "evidence" that they are God's people and we lived in the last days, it is easy to say you have faith in the Bible. But then after you are out, the Bible becomes this much quieter book that sits on a shelf that many choose to ignore. It only speaks when you take time to open it and meditate on it. I personally read everything I could get my hands on. Both pro and anti God. I wasn't afraid. But as the year went by, God was a constant voice that could not be ignored. I did not abandon him quickly, even though I read many things and had to test my faith. I would simply relax and read everything and allow his spirit to guide me. And what I found was truly amazing. All of my major questions were answered. I found a peace of mind that I never had with the Watchtower. Jesus said: John: 6. 44. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." I began to see that this was something that I wasn't going to find proof of online. If we allow time, we experience the truthfulness of these words. But if we are not patient, and we expect God to give us this great sign, it is not going to happen. But it is the little things that we discern through his word that saves us. When I left the Watchtower, I was very depressed and alone. Did not know where or what to do. I knew I was losing all family and friends. But one evening, I opened my Bible and I ran into these verses. John: 9. 34. They answered him, "You were altogether born in sins, and do you teach us?" They threw him out. 35. Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" 36. He answered, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe in him?" 37. Jesus said to him, "You have both seen him, and it is he who speaks with you." These words touched me. This blind man was thrown out. Similar to my situation. But Jesus was aware of what happened. And he asked the question in verse 35. Those words were the beginning of my journey and I am now convinced that God is not far from each one of us.
 +3 / -1
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

JuandeFiero,

Why haven't you answered the question about God intervening like he did in the Bible?
Just explain ONE. The Flood. If you've shown God can't intervene, why did he intervene in Noah's day?
I guess God can't break his rules (except when he breaks his rules) but when he breaks those rules, he's not really breaking the rules because he makes the rules to begin with.
The challenge had been set, and Mankind had decided upon independence. Thereafter that independence would continue until the issue was proved... except there was an attempt to completely hijack the earthly project - thus the reason for the deluge. Had God not brought the deluge, then there would have been no opportunity for Mankind to learn it could not manage alone, because Mankind would have been over-ridden by the angels that were attempting to take over the earth.
That is why God intervened - so that humans could continue. It was not breaking the rules, it was rectifying a violation by the adversary.

 +0 / -3
juandefiero
juandefiero 13 days ago

Ah, so now the issue is total independence, not just independence from God.
Interesting how the story evolves when you're challenged. (Incidentally, this is how confirmation bias coupled with cognitive dissonance works...you change the story to fit your worldview.)
So, Mankind could survive without God if Satan and his demons helped us out, is that what you're saying?
How about the parting of the Red Sea? Isn't that intervening in Mankind's affairs?
How about killing 180,000 Assyrians overnight...isn't that intervening?
How about every time God answers a prayer...isn't that intervening?
 +3 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

Its strange...
There's a website called JW-Recovery which I joined, and when I mentioned to someone that they could talk to God themselves I was reprimnded for "preaching".
Oddly - why should God not be mentioned in a recovery website?
Is this site also just for atheists? Is is a shooting-ground with believers as the quarry? If watchtower people come here and want support, surely reason should prevail rather than a melée. It certainly does not do the case for atheism any credit if there is so much anger against believers.
 +1 / -4
baker
baker 13 days ago
Just watched the news yesterday and a 2 month old was shaken by her uncle to death. And the family already had a sign up that said, "God has another new angel" How sick is that?
 +4 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

Maybe the debate should be focused upon whether ancient mythology is fact or fiction with inherently specific intent.

 +2 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago


Ah, so now the issue is total independence, not just independence from God.
Interesting how the story evolves when you're challenged.
So, Mankind could survive without God if Satan and his demons helped us out, is that what you're saying?
I'm sure, JuandeFiero, you understand really. Mankind would not have survived - not with the free will which we have.

 
juandefiero
juandefiero 13 days ago

So, when a majority of vocal individuals present rational, logical arguments (that so happen to not agree with your ideology), it becomes a melee?
Debate and discussion are not persecution.
 +5 / -1
juandefiero
juandefiero 13 days ago

I'm sure, JuandeFiero, you understand really. Mankind would not have survived - not with the free will which we have.
Then why intervene? Surely his point was made.
OK...then explain the confusing of the languages at Babel. What was God so afraid of? That Mankind wouldn't survive? Wouldn't that prove his point?
So, what you're saying is WE have free will, but God doesn't. We can decide to follow one path or another, but God is a slave because it's "impossible for [him] to lie"...and he has no ability to intervene until he proves his point.
Seems to me, we are the superior species.
 +6 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 13 days ago

I don't believe in a personal God, that's for sure.
If God exists, the ball is in his court ...
That's two controversial threads in your first three threads that you've started, Former.
A true baptism of fire. 
 +3 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

The quality of discussion can be gauged by the percentage of attitude which comprises the questions - too much, and they are not really questions, wouldn't you agree?
nicaloau asked me for an explanation - which I gave - then several rather more heated posts which I also responded to. It was a serious response to a question which truly haunts some people - doesn't it deserve a little respect, for their sakes?

 +2 / -3
OneGenTwoGroups
OneGenTwoGroups 13 days ago

Acts5v29
Have you ever wondered why human prototypes always give assertions from talking snakes merit?
Have you ever wondered if "independence" in the spirit world causes angels to cannibalized by each other or raped by each other or accidental death or Down syndrome or 70 year life spans?
 +0 / -1
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago

If watchtower people come here and want support, surely reason should prevail rather than a melée. It certainly does not do the case for atheism any credit if there is so much anger against believers.
You clearly don't understand what reason is nor are you familiar with this forum. Believers don't face a melée of anger, everyone is welcome. Self appointed evangelists on the other hand . . .
 +5 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

respectfully nicolaou, evangelist or not, you asked me to give a response on the thread and I gave it according to the query - so why then complain? why the vitriol?
My ministry is very simple - and transparent - and it demands nothing of anyone. But the answer to why God "Permits Evil" is sound and reasoned, and unlike the alternatives I have heard here points to a nearby-time of solution, rather than a continuance. If you do not believe it, fine, but for peace of mind a little credence can produce dividends.

 +0 / -4
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

Since god(s) only exist within the human imagination, arguing or debating that inherent imagination usually results in an uneventful folly, particularly if a person firmly places themselves behind that purposed wall that they have surrounded themselves with.

 +1 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago

I'll slander you ActsV29 and your evil,dirty bloodthirsty, voyeuristic,perverted god of the bible and as usual your excuses for this deity are pathetic, what are you going to do about it, pray that he/she rains bolts of lightening down from heaven to me? this pic sums you and your belief up
 +2 / -2

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



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by Divergent 4 months ago



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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 13 days ago

I believe in higher powers, evil supernatural forces among us, people possessed/guided by these evil forces, people guided by 'good' supernatural forces.
In essence, do not believe that we humans understand forces/powers above ours. We make guesses based on ancient writings, but none is certain.
DY
 +1 / -0
FormerlySandL
FormerlySandL 13 days ago

While Acts25v9 has not put up a covincing and satisfactory reason for me personally to believe in God, I have to say that despite the abuse and name calling, they have given courteous, respectful replies and not stooped to retaliating angrily.
It seems that if you have a different opinion or you make a mistake on this forum some members here are so intolerant and try to bully you out of town.
I agree in principle with most of the replies against Acts25v9 but not the way it's given.
There is a lot of anger and bitterness on this site by a small but noisy minority who quickly resort to swearing and name calling rather than have a grown up debate.
To any new visitors it just reinforces all the things that we are warned about at the kh about sites like this which is a shame for those of us looking for answers and coming to terms with leaving the organisation.
 +10 / -6
Giordano
Giordano 13 days ago

Back to the topic. Start your own post Act 529.
 never thought I would admit it, but I don't.
I might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart I really don't believe in God.
As a human I could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it
Based on your motivation as mentioned in your account/story.......
I think my friend you may be a humanist.

Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over acceptance of dogma or superstition.

https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/3260




When my wife and I left the JW I found that the way I behaved towards people didn't change with my lack of spiritual beliefs. I still applied ethics and compassion....I was still interested in helping people, in treating people fairly, in forgiving and being forgiven. I still wanted to do some good and leave this life with the world in a little tiny way in better shape.
I didn't need the WTBT$ to tell me how I was supposed to act or what to believe.
As a very young child pre JW years I believed in Santa Claus somewhere along the years I stopped believing in Santa Claus. Maybe because at Xmas time one saw many Santa's who all looked the same. Or maybe I was stumbled when the Santa who visited our family gathering was revealed to be my drunk Uncle when he stumbled into the Christmas tree.
I believed in God until I didn't. I think we call it growing up. But if a person needs to believe I am find with that.
 +5 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 13 days ago

I never thought I would admit it, but I don't.
Its a liberating feeling isn't it?.
There will always be things we don't understand (yet), but to superstitiously label them all with 'God' is a mistake.
& Acts5v29, with all due respect, stop reading the Goat Herder's Guide to the galaxy and pick up some other books, you have the abrahamic mind virus...bad

 +9 / -2
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 13 days ago

the Goat Herder's Guide to the galaxy
Never heard that one before!
 +5 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

One can believe that the sociological behavior directions given or offered by the Jesus God was advantageous to humanity, in spite of this god most likely Inherently imagined by man himself, so the we can see that mankind envisions and conceptualizes the gods we think we need.

 +1 / -0
TheListener
TheListener 13 days ago

SandL the forum has changed a lot in the last few years. Years ago there were a number of threads on witness theology and how incorrect they are/were. There were a lot of threads on the Bible and how the witnesses misinterpret it. As I was coming out of the witnesses this board was invaluable.
The board was really helpful to me because I felt that I needed to study each belief I had grown up with and understand if it was right or wrong and how. It's one thing to read an article or book on witness teachings and how they're wrong but it is so much more helpful (at least to me) to be able to ask questions, research and share information with others. If you look at some of my older threads you'll see me struggling with the idea of grace, the biblical timeline, birthdays, the cross/stake, Noah's supposed preaching, etc.
The board is still a very helpful place to those leaving the witnesses to turn to but it's just a bit more argumentative and secular now. We, and I'm in this group now too, seem to be more interested in the latest WT news and it's slow demise than we are discussing the theology and how it's incorrect. It's probably just a natural progression.
 +8 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 13 days ago

It seems that if you have a different opinion or you make a mistake on this forum some members here are so intolerant and try to bully you out of town.
There is occasional bullying but Simon (this board's owner and administrator) stamps down on it when it's brought to his attention. Notwithstanding that you did receive some harsh comments yesterday, could it be that you misinterpret blunt and straightforward honesty as intolerance or bullying?
Don't give up posting S&L, it will be to your benefit and you may find us to be rather nice under the gruffness and rough edges.
 +7 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 13 days ago

Its interesting that in the old testament people didn't have to have faith but supposedly got proof from seeing God or seeing a miracle to prove he was real. Then in the new testament after the apostles died off it has become all about faith. So there is now more people on the planet then ever before and more religions, yet God does nothing and we are all supposed to just have faith and believe.
Well after the tsunami that hit a few years back then the Haitian earthquake and now having a daughter that's experiences some of the highest levels of pain any human has. I have no faith, fuck God, he's a piece of shit if he exists, for he does nothing for mankinds plight and suffering. I have more love in my left testicle then he does is his entire being again if he exists at all. I don't believe as you can tell and the Bible God is the worst of all the God's.
 +3 / -1
FormerlySandL
FormerlySandL 13 days ago

Hi Nicolaou
Nope. I deserved the criticism I received initially, although despite my holding my hands up and admitting and rectifying my mistake, it still went on.
Im not sure some of the comments are just 'blunt and straightforward' honesty as they border on the abusive. It's quite unsettling to be on the receiving end of them.
on the whole my experience here has had a more positive impact on me than a negative one and people like you and many others are supportive. I'll be sticking around and hopefully in time can help people who were just as bewildered with their new life choice as I was :smile:
 +5 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 13 days ago
I stopped believing in God for the same reasons as you FSAL, because of the cruelty of the free will, proving Satan a liar argument. I tried to read 'Acts' take on that argument just now and found after five seconds my brain started to seize up. It's illogical nonsense twisting reality in knots to try and explain why the world can contain so much suffering and yet there's still a loving God.
 +4 / -0
FormerlySandL
FormerlySandL 13 days ago

Xanthippe
i read them too and they had the same sort of hollow unsatisfying sound as some of the arguments given at the kh. It's like swapping one brainwashed delusionment for another.
I never want to be part of religion or be brainwashed ever again.
 +5 / -0
GodZoo
GodZoo 13 days ago

I think I have removed the word belief entirely from my life. I try to go these days by what I have actually experienced.
It might be more useful and more accurate to ask people of they think they have actually experienced God as belief by itself is quite useless to anyone.
 +2 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 13 days ago


"I can show you why God does not - and cannot - intervene in badness. Would that make a difference to you? If so, you have my PMs - just contact me."
Why not just share your idea publicly on the forum for all to see? Is it because you don't want your idea being scrutinized and proven to be false or without merit?
There is no justifiable excuse for an all-powerful God who is supposed to be the epitome of love to sit by and allow all manner of atrocities and sufferings to be committed without intervening. Any attempt to excuse such behavior is simply the epitome of shameless, heartless, sycophantic apologetics!

 +4 / -1
truth doubter
truth doubter 13 days ago

Click on "why do intelligent people believe in god" and scroll down to my post. What god does or allows does not prove or disprove his existance .
truth doubter
 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 13 days ago
The god of christian theism does not exist....
 +4 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

All the gods envisioned or imagined in human history, may never have existed but propagators certainly did and their creating their own self empowerment sourced from those expressed gods is an undeniable fact.

 
freemindfade
freemindfade 13 days ago

I think I have removed the word belief entirely from my life. I try to go these days by what I have actually experienced.
agree 100% I feel that word is abused and misused. "wanting to believe" is probably what should be used far more often. After being grilled by in family over and and over and over "what do you believe!" "what do you believe!!" "what do you believe!!!!!" I finally came to the conclusion that what you believe or want to believe (that can't be proven) is personal. So is any believe a say theistic person can't handle. I am not here to preach and change their belief, I will call BS "BS" if asked.
I sum up belief this way: "I believe what I can prove to be true" the end.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

I do not believe in gods anymore but I do believe in mankind's inherent ignorance of the world in which we live in and from out that ignorance, supernatural agents were envisioned to offer plausible answers to those unknowns.
 +2 / -0
juandefiero
juandefiero 13 days ago

What god does or allows does not prove or disprove his existance .
No, but what god does or allows DOES prove whether he deserves our worship.
Even if I believed God existed, I wouldn't worship him.
Here's some food for thought:











 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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OUTLAW
OUTLAW 13 days ago

.
This Existence of God is Unlikely....I`ve never seen proof either way..
I`m happy to let people to believe what ever they want..
I have No Use for "Rabid Zealot Preachers" on Either Side of the Fence..
.

..Image result for Zealot atheist.Image result for no zealots.Image result for atheist t argue
 +4 / -2
cofty
cofty 13 days ago
Outlaw the Militant Agnostic - "I DON'T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU!"
 +5 / -6
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago

If the Earth is Gods *footstool*, I wondered most of my life as to why He would let it get so buggered up!!!
But of course, as JWs, we were always told the reason behind it. Just never made any logic. If you had a yard and house, and were renting it out and tenants were damaging it beyond repair. Why the Hell would you keep those guys in there!!! Questions that always weighed very heavy on me!!!!
 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 13 days ago


Outlaw the Militant Agnostic - "I DON'T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU!".....cofty
It must be Extremely Frustrating for You..

When People REFUSE to "Bend to Your Will" and "Recognize Your Omnipresence" on This Forum..
....................................................................................................http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab110/GeneralWaco/mutley-ani1.gif
 +12 / -2
cofty
cofty 13 days ago

You get the same 8 likes from your posse every time you insult me Outlaw.
Four of them are not paying attention this evening, you better remind them.
 +5 / -8
Lostwun
Lostwun 13 days ago

For me I fight the thought that god doesn't exist. I spent my entire life worshipping jehovah and now because im no longer a witness I dont automatically come to the conclusion that he doesnt exist. I personally feel like ive felt his presence throughout many stages in my life so im not quick to give up on him but I will say that there are things that happen in the world today that make me question why he wont do anything about it.
If it makes sense at all I would say that im on the fence right now with my belief in Jehovah.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 13 days ago


You get the same 8 likes from your posse every time you insult me Outlaw.
Four of them are not paying attention this evening, you better remind them.....cofty
The same "Likes"?..
I have No Idea who "Likes" or "Dislikes" my posts.....The Names aren`t Posted.....But..
Some How You Know??!!.....????!!!......*GASP!*
.

......................CAN YOU MAKE FIRE TOO??!!..
...........Image result for Fire god Gif
............................................................................................http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab110/GeneralWaco/thsmilie_happy_251.gif
 +5 / -2
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago

The JWs claim that there is evidence all around that God exists. Really
 
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

Good morning Lostwun,
Its a common thing for religion to make us hate everything about them, and discovering a disbelief in God can be a huge defense, albeit a Pyrrhic one. I never lost love of God either, and I can understand those who sincerely - as well as knee-jerk - do not believe in Him. If you still believe in God from your heart, you're probably in a good position to recover from the watchtower as you've made a distinction between the two.
 +2 / -1
punkofnice
punkofnice 12 days ago

It seems to me that believers start with the premise that god exists and they know how he/she/they/it thinks. Oddly, here in the western world, it seems to be the god of the bible that is being used as the god. What about all the other gods?
I miss believing in god, but it's a reality; the world is the same whether a god exists or not.
So far, I have seen not a shred of evidence for god. whichever one it's supposed to be.
I repeat; the premise seems to be that god exists, there is no evidence, however, this is what god thinks.........................
As far as the question, 'do you still believe in god?' the answers should be yes, no or maybe. Beyond that arguments are useless.
I await tangible proof of deity beyond emotional pleas or logical fallacies. Respectfully, of course.
Are arguments ever won? Or do we get the bleedin' hump and retreat into our confirmation bias?
 +5 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 12 days ago

Hello FSNL
Well, nice to see you took the bull by the horns. The God discussion is the big one, most avoid it because it goes nowhere the believer will continue to believe regardless of the evidence. I will say, on a scale 1-10, I was around a 7 non believer and after Acts 5v29 fine explanation I'm now closer to 9.5
The problem imho is Acts is preaching to xjw's, we heard it all before, we read it, preached it, sang it, went to conventions it was drilled in us. The arguments for God, Acts bring to the table is not new, same old stuff. I think I could of done a better job resurrecting some of my old rhetoric. Its a hard thing to sell especially here where we have been duped, where a religion (JW's) used the idea of a Omnipotent God to subjugate it's members and destroy lives, to the point where we are still in the process of picking up the pieces, in a extreme ostracized environment.

Most of us have research and have deeply thought about this, have truly spent years wresting with this subject, the belief in God. "I've concluded that Evidence makes belief unnecessary"
So new evidence will definitely require me to reanalyze my position. But until then I enjoy everyday of life without all the delusional religious constraints.
I hope your situation has improved some.

 +2 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

MarkOfCain,
respectfully, I was addressing only the issue of why God does not prevent evil, not on proof of God's existance. Whereas the watchtower preaches a sudden slaughter by God, my ministry preaches a rescue of everyone - there is something of a difference.
As I said to Former, if you sincerely do not believe then fine, but if it is prompted by the appalling of your church, then it might be easier to recover if we see God is quite separate from religions, rather than see Him as part of the problem.

 +1 / -2
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 12 days ago

I was addressing only the issue of why God does not prevent evil, not on proof of God's existance.
The argument has no merit, if you can't convince me there is a God.

 +3 / -1
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 12 days ago

@Acts,
if we see God is quite separate from religions, rather than see Him as part of the problem
Almost all of humanity worships some sort of god(s), mainly as prescribed by the religion(s) in their area of birth.
Assuming your God exists, She is part of the problem by not making it abundantly clear that everyone is doing it wrong by following religions that lead away from Her.
 +4 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 12 days ago

I don’t know. Here is how I feel: I do not believe in a personal God. The idea that he would care for my working conditions, my love life, etc, while he tolerated and tolerate so much cruelty around the world… its just not working for me.
So, could I envision a God who placed us on the earth (using an evolutionary process) and further plans for us once we die? I don’t know…. I am not sure I would see the point in this. That being said, if I wake up somewhere else after I die, I would not be surprised.
In the end, weather I believe in God or not does not change the fact that I chose to be a good person. I want to do good around me so that once I pass away, people will be able to remember me as a good guy.
So, if there is a God that has some higher purpose for me at that point, I don’t see why he would not judge me on my action rather than my beliefs.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 12 days ago

The problem with believing in a God is that there is usually a structured religion around it, with intervening doctrines which one is enforced to comply and support.
Because these religions were devised and written centuries ago, their held to doctrines have detrimental negative effects onto humanity living today and some still hold positive social direction and acceptance, such as the teachings of Jesus Christ.
 +2 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 12 days ago

MarkofCane: I think I could of done a better job resurrecting some of my old rhetoric.



 +3 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 12 days ago
I should of said could have :')

 +4 / -0
AudeSapere
AudeSapere 12 days ago

As someone who wasted soo much of my life fully immersed in what later showed itself to be a high-control publishing company (now turned real estate company) masquerading as a religion, I decided that I did not need to debate or explore the God versus NoGod question at this stage in my life.
What is, is. What will be, will be. None of it will change my morals or my person very much at all. I am hard-working, self-reliant, help others when and where I can and am generally very optimistic in my outlook.
*IF* there is a god, he should have made the 'right' way more clearer so as to not allow so much dissention.
*IF* there is a god, and life is a gift from our creator, I have squandered far too much of that gift while serving the publishing-company-turned-real-estate-company for it's own high-controlled gain.
*IF* there is NO god... and *IF* this life is all there is... I better get living.
Life is much more precious when there is no Future Paradise on the horizon.

I just find I have no interest in the God/NoGod debate anymore. It's been about 15 years that I've felt this way.
And I'm very, very comfortable with that view. It suits me very well.
At least for now. If I change that view, I may choose to do so. But for now see no need and have almost zero interest.

.
To the OP (Formerly S&L): With so much on your plate right, I hope you, too, realize that the God/NoGod debate is not something that you have to resolve right now. You first (2nd, 3rd and 4th) priorities really need the bulk of your time and mental attention for a while.
All the best with your pending growth spurt. Keep with it. You will be AMAZED at what you can accomplish.
-AudeSapere (meaning: Dare to Know; Dare to Have Wisdom/Understanding; Dare to Think for Yourself.)
 +3 / -0
Terry
Terry 12 days ago

Explorers searched for the Fountain of Youth, the Lost City of Gold, and the Garden of Eden. Metaphysicians practiced alchemy and sought to turn lead into gold. Ancient Greeks tried to square the circle using only a protractor and straightedge. . . and failed, one and all.
The unreal, the imaginary, and the impossible aren't known in advance. Seeking to disprove or improve is a magnificent ambition. The difference between the explorers, the Scientists, and the theorists. . . and True-Believers who knock on your door with waste paper disguised as Truth is this:
One group of people TESTS their dreams and ambitions against reality.
The other group--hunkers down and defends every silly, disproved lie as though it was the gold in Ft. Knox.
It's a remarkable difference between minds: intellectual honesty is all too rare among "spiritual people." In fact, "Spirit-led" people tend to despise logic, reason, and individuality as though it were a curse. Not all, mind you, just enough to curdle the milk of human kindness.
I think it must be a faulty switch between being able to visualize actual things and a subcategory of imagining non-existing things. If those alternate paths were CLEARLY MARKED in your mind, you'd never stray off into the yellow brick road of wishful thinking. But--I would hypothesize--a hiccup occurs and we get confused between our epiglottis and our doohickey:smile:
BELIEF is a strong conviction based on NO evidence. You just want it because it feels good to imagine you could have it.
No harm--no foul.
Except . . . just possibly . . .by confusing the path between ACTUAL and IMAGINARY, we damage our ability to reach conclusions which harmonize with reality.
In my view (an opinion, mind you) "belief" is a bad habit not unlike picking your nose and eating the boogers. It's sort of like bad manners.
Why "bad" manners?
Because the rest of your rational friends have to waste their time dealing with all that nonsense without hurting your feelings or setting you off on a rant.
Delusional friends can be a real pain in the ass :smile:
Your mileage may vary, of course.
 +6 / -0

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Tenacious
Tenacious 12 days ago

I still believe in the Christian God of the Bible and His Son Jesus Christ.
However, there is a footnote to my belief.
Science has yet to prove where or how the first living cell came into existence. Some ascribe to the theory of panspermia while others dismiss the idea outright while offering no explanation.
This is where it gets weird.
Science continues to find fossils that point to humans being around longer than previously thought. We all know the Genesis account very well.
Science also continues to understand how incredibly complex the human anatomy with all its functions are.
Nature also points to being designed and created for humans to live comfortably.
The thousands of different animal species with their intricate characteristics also point to someone or something having designed them.
Then there's the question of spirit entities residing and interacting among humans. If there is no God, then who or what are these entities?
So while I do still believe in God and Christ, there are some questions that I cannot answer and science has been unable to.
My five scents
 +1 / -2
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

Good evening Anders,

Assuming your God exists, She is part of the problem by not making it abundantly clear that everyone is doing it wrong by following religions that lead away from Her.
I don't see that as God's fault - He guided Moses, but the Hebrews quickly took to their own ideas, even before they'd crossed the Jordan. He sent the Christ, but that soon deteriorated into philosophy and competition.
Religions treat knowledge as essential for salvation, but God does not say that. If we have good heart - even if we are total unbelievers but are sincere in that unbelief - then that is fertile ground for following when truth becomes apparent, truth which we have missed during our earlier years. When God intervenes, the question of religion will be pointless, as the Christ will guide us without the need for a "middleman". The problem is whether we - individually - will want to.
 +0 / -1
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

Good evening Stephanelaliberte

In the end, weather I believe in God or not does not change the fact that I chose to be a good person. I want to do good around me so that once I pass away, people will be able to remember me as a good guy.


So, if there is a God that has some higher purpose for me at that point, I don’t see why he would not judge me on my action rather than my beliefs.
A good heart with sincerity - what could anyone see as wrong with that!

 
cofty
cofty 12 days ago

Nature also points to being designed and created for humans to live comfortably - Tenacious
That is like the puddle that wondered why the hole in the road was the perfect shape.
The earth is mostly uninhabitable. Earthquakes, volcanos and tsunamis regularly kill millions of earths inhabitants. The sun causes thousands of fatal cancers every year. Shall I go on?



The thousands of different animal species with their intricate characteristics also point to someone or something having designed them.
99% of the millions of species that have ever lived were not up to the job and have gone extinct even before humans appeared. There is zero evidence of intelligent design and lots of evidence of bad design.
Then there's the question of spirit entities residing and interacting among humans. If there is no God, then who or what are these entities?
Figments of your imagination.
Science has yet to prove where or how the first living cell came into existence.
Actually they are getting there. Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic.
 +5 / -1
cofty
cofty 12 days ago

He guided Moses - Acts5:29
Among god's instructions were how to take and abuse slaves. Orders to commit infanticide and forced marriage/rape, a command to murder apostates and a plan to commit genocide against numerous local ethnic groups.
 +5 / -1
FormerlySandL
FormerlySandL 12 days ago

Then there's the question of spirit entities residing and interacting among humans. If there is no God, then who or what are these entities?
Figments of your imagination.
This is actually a really interesting point and may be the only thing that could make me reconsider my argument.
I don't know if spirit creatures are a figment of our imaginations and I wouldn't want to find out. I would never ever get involved with spritism, witchcraft or quija boards.
Would you Cofty?
 
cofty
cofty 12 days ago

Ouija boards etc are harmless children's toys.
The only magic thing about them is that if you make everybody wear a blindfold they suddenly don't work anymore.
There are no "spirits" it's all just superstition.
 +5 / -1
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 12 days ago

If we have good heart - even if we are total unbelievers but are sincere in that unbelief - then that is fertile ground for following when truth becomes apparent, truth which we have missed during our earlier years. When God intervenes, the question of religion will be pointless, as the Christ will guide us without the need for a "middleman". The problem is whether we - individually - will want to.
Good evening Acts. That's great. I have a good heart and I am totally sincere in that unbelief. If God intervenes with Christ I will be happy to hear their guidance when truth becomes apparent as you put it. Meanwhile - I am an atheist.
 +4 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 12 days ago

Just wanted to point out that in many ancient civilizations the stars that the ancients observed in the sky were deemed spirits or lesser gods/angles associated to a greater God as it were.
This assertion that supernatural spirits exist or are available to be connected to humans in various ways is again non-provable under critical scientific evaluation of evidence.

 
theliberator
theliberator 12 days ago

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
—Albert Einstein
 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty 12 days ago

Nobody hears "the music of the spheres" more clearly than those who investigate what can be known of our cosmos.
From the microscopic universe of the cell to the vastness of deep space. Reality is more awesome than we can even imagine. Nobody mutes the music more than those who destroy the wonder with cheap superstitious answers.



 +2 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 12 days ago

Acts5v29,
You stated "I can show you why God does not - and cannot - intervene in badness." As you're still posting on this thread I would like you to address my questions I posed to you on the very first page of the OP.
God could have simply wiped the early ones out and started again - but that would not have proved His contention, which was goaded by the adversary. So Man became independent, and that issue has to prove itself - God's intervention would only violate the terms. God cannot intervene until Mankind learns that it cannot survive on its own
-Acts5v29
◦What about when God drowned almost everyone on the planet in the flood, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about the tower of Babel when God confused all the languages and spread everyone apart, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about when God helped Judah kill 500,000 men, wasn't that intervention (2 Chronicles 13:15)?
◦What about when he killed all the firstborn (including babies) in Egypt, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about when God ordered the genocide of the Midianites, Amalekites, the people of Heshbon, and the people of Bashan - wasn't that intervention (1 Samuel 15:1-9, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 3:3-7, Deuteronomy 2:32-35)?
◦What about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, wasn't that intervention?
◦What about God sending two bears to maul children to death for calling Elisha bald, wasn't that intervention (2 Kings 2:23)?
◦What about God giving Jeptha victory over the Ammonites on the condition that he sacrifice his daughter, wasn't that intervention (Judges 11:30-39)?
◦What about God giving Samson strength so he can kill 30 men for their clothes, wasn't that intervention (Judges 14:11-19)?
◦etc.
.
Clearly God can intervene to cause destruction and death. And it's not just humans that experience suffering. It's also animals that suffer and die too. What about them?
 +2 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 12 days ago

There are about 5000 or so species of mammal on the Earth which includes us homo sapiens. However, there are over 1 million described species of insects, and of those, around half of them are beetles... which leads one to conclude that God sure loves beetles.

 +3 / -0
theliberator
theliberator 11 days ago

Sorry Cofty. But I am in the company of the giants.
“As we conquer peak after peak we see in front of us regions full of interest and beauty, but we do not see our goal, we do not see the horizon; in the distance tower still higher peaks, which will yield to those who ascend them still wider prospects, and deepen the feeling, the truth of which is emphasized by every advance in science, that ‘Great are the Works of the Lord’.”
—Sir Joseph J. Thomson, Nobel Prize winning physicist, discoverer of the electron, founder of atomic physics.
 +3 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 11 days ago

Good morning Xanthippe

Good evening Acts. That's great. I have a good heart and I am totally sincere in that unbelief. If God intervenes with Christ I will be happy to hear their guidance when truth becomes apparent as you put it. Meanwhile - I am an atheist.
In that case, you have a better start than many - believers or unbelievers.



best wishes




 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 11 days ago

I am in the company of the giants
No you have found a webpage with lots of quotes. So what?
Why do you think what people believed at the dawn of science is relevant?
 +4 / -1
theliberator
theliberator 11 days ago

First off. I love that website! It isn't just "what people believed at the dawn of science". Many scientists feel the same way today. These scientists are "real scientists". Those early scientists would probably still believe in God, because now we know that we and the universe are incomprehendibly complex. Even Darwin was stumped by what he seen. He probably would not of even come up with such nonsense if he knew just how complex life is. You are a part of a much larger indoctrination. One of the biggest scams the world has ever seen.
"Quotations (such as have point and lack triteness) from the great old authors are an act of reverence on the part of the quoter, and a blessing to a public grown superficial and external."
-- Louise Guiney
 +3 / -2
Heaven
Heaven 11 days ago

The issue of theodicy was the beginning of the end of God for me. I was 10 and the Ethiopian drought and famine of the 1970s was raging, killing 100s of thousands of people. Apparently God hates Ethiopia as this area seems to be regularly hit with this kind of suffering.
Religions claim God is loving and just but words are only words. Reality does not measure up to these claims. It is deeds, behaviours, and actions that speak as do the lack of these. There is no normal human father on the face of this Earth that would not do all within his power to see that his children are cared for, that they receive the necessities of life - nourishment, love, shelter, clothing, medical care, education, and support. Any father who does not look after his children when he has the power to do so is negligent and delinquent - simply put, evil.

This quote by Sam Harris is worth considering:
 

 +5 / -1
cofty
cofty 11 days ago

First off. I love that website! - libby
Of course you do. It saves you the hard work of reading a book and maybe learning something.
 +2 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 11 days ago

Well Heaven, as any child who cries at having a painful operation comes to realise, there is usually a reason.
What if the child were determined to hate his father who sent him for chemo? Even a child could understand that, in the longer term, there was a good reason.

There's a reason for our Heavenly Father's inaction too, but it seems people would rather enjoy their hatred than consider they might be mistaken. I know its painful to revisit the seat of disppointment - but children manage it. They are made upset, they cry, they go into a lonely corner,... but they don't build a barrier, they don't say "never again". They wipe their eyes, they try again - perhaps because they're too young and vulnerable and they don't know how to build a shell for themselves - and there is too much in the world that they feel is out there for them to waste blocking out what they do not yet understand. Its only as we get stronger that we feel we can isolate ourselves - but that strength keeps out many things.
 +1 / -4

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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rebel8
rebel8 11 days ago

No, OP, I don't. It took a long time to admit it to myself. I tried so hard to believe.
The problem of suffering while god is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent cannot be answered logically.
So then, I pondered if god does exist but isn't all 3 of the above. Again, I tried hard to look for him, her, them. But they just aren't there.
I can't find even a single shred of evidence there is anything supernatural at all. Cameras and other technology has improved, yet we have no pictures of demons, ghosts, etc.
To believe in god(s) after learning the facts about the natural world takes a lot of mental acrobatics.

 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty 11 days ago

There's a reason for our Heavenly Father's inaction too - Acts
There is no possible reason for god creating a world that kills millions of its inhabitants through earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis and then passively watching the carnage unfold.
If a man lays landmines around a village and watches children walk across the minefield he is guilty not only of a crime of omission for failing to call a warning but of a deliberate crime of commission.

Jesus claimed to have been sent to reveal the nature of his god and father. Not only does christianity claim that god is love, it defines the meaning of love, and explains the importance of love expressed as positive action in the interests of others.

I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous... Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matt.5
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matt.6

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. - Luke 12

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - Jas.1
"Love ... always protects" - 1 Cor.13
The god of Jesus is also a god who is active in the world. Millions of christians demonstrate their belief in an immanent god every day. When they thank god for their food or pray for protection for a loved one or for a new job or help with any one of a million concerns they confirm that they worship a god who acts in the real world.
Natural disasters are incompatible with other things that christians claim to know about god. All attempts to explain god's actions result in a story that is internally contradictory. The god of christian theism does not exist.

 +3 / -2
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 11 days ago
I wonder if you're just too afraid that it could be true, and find the strength in hating easier to live with.

 +1 / -3
cofty
cofty 11 days ago

I wonder if you're just too afraid that it could be true - Acts
I wonder if you are afraid that you might be wrong.
I was a christian for 9 years after I left the cult. It took a lot of courage to follow the evidence. Believing in a sky-daddy who will one day fix all our problems and reward the faithful is very comforting.
I don't "hate" god - that is a dumb thing to say.
I just posted a very carefully reasoned argument against your assertions. You ignored it completely and made an ad hominem attack. Why?
 +6 / -1
Alive!
Alive! 11 days ago

Hi Liberator,
Sorry, am scrolling through my iPhone - could you post link to quotation site?
A brief expression from a noble mind can be uplifting, stirring and sometimes challenging and thought provoking....
A glass of fresh water :smile:
 +1 / -1
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 11 days ago

not ad hominem - more encouraging by raising what might be helpful...
Thus far, the response to my earlier explanation has been heated to say the least - not reasoning, but very angry. Is there no-one who sees the merit in it, or who can discard it on a more reasonable ground than the distant "I don't believe it".
Honestly, like all other ex-watchtower I understand the horrors of realising that we've been hoodwinked and the feelings that induces - and I can imagine how easy it is to simply discard God to put an end to any chance of touching belief again. But that attitude - and I mean attitude - loses us so much. In a real sense, the watchtower is making people believe even after they've left: they're making them believe that God and the watchtower are somehow genuinely linked, so that they must reject both. They're making people believe in no God ever again. Didn't we leave to be free of that influence? why should we have to disbelieve, just because we leave them?
God is not cruel, and is inactive for the reason I stated - its hard on us, but really is of our own making as I explained. If we can understand that - and it is very easy to understand - we will be able to take a great deal without undue suffering, and it will help remove that painful attitude which keeps us blinded.
 +0 / -2
cofty
cofty 11 days ago

God is not cruel, and is inactive for the reason I stated - Acts
You have completely missed the point. It is as if you don't read a single word that anybody writes who disagrees with you.
The world was created in such a way that it would kill millions of its inhabitants through natural disasters. Why?
You contradict yourself every time you refer to the bible. The god of the bible constantly acts in the world.
Look at the texts I quoted in my post and reconcile them with your answer.
Why does god promise to actively care for the welfare of humans and then passively observe a quarter of a million get wiped out by a tsunami?
You are obfuscating. How about actually addressing the question you were asked?
 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty 11 days ago

Acts5
1. Your entire theology is predicated on a god who has good reason not to act in the world.
2. You rely on the bible for your authority.
3. The bible describes a god who constantly acts in the world and who promised to do so.
You repeatedly recommend your "ministry" to others on the forum. Don't you think you should explain how these three facts can be logically reconciled?

 +3 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 11 days ago

I have two basic rules when engaging people online:
1.) Don't take what they say personally
2.) Don't make it personal - attack their arguments not their character

 But I have to say Acts5v29, you really are testing my patience on both fronts. Some of the things you have stated on this thread - and throughout this forum - are so disgusting and so vile and so morally bankrupt I can't help but worry about the horrible actions you could justify under such perverse reasoning.
Simply put, sincerity is not enough. In order to put our good intentions to positive use we actually have to understand how our actions will manifest themselves. And if you're going to dismiss all the evil in the world as non-consequential simply because "God will fix it in the end" then I'm not sure you're in a position to say ANYTHING meaningful about ethics. You have divorced yourself from all moral responsibility and accountability.
If I say I'm going to buy you a new car in ten years time does it mean I have the right to wreck the car you have right now? Would buying you a new car in ten years make up for all the time you were without a car? Or if you and your partner can have more kids in the future does it mean I can kill the kids you have right now?
Of course not. Because restitution isn't a moral system.
What if the child were determined to hate his father who sent him for chemo? Even a child could understand that, in the longer term, there was a good reason.
If a child is going to receive chemo treatments then we let the child know in advance. We let the child know exactly WHAT to expect and we make sure they understand WHY it's happening - that it's done to save their life. We don't just start them on chemo without warning and provide no help with their symptoms and then when they ask, "Why is this happening?" remain silent. That would be unnecessarily cruel and harmful.
But this is the exact position we find ourselves in with regards to natural disasters. We can't anticipate them. We don't know when or where they're going to happen. We don't know why they're happening (outside of causal events). And THEY DON'T SAVE LIVES!
They cause death and destruction and imense pain and suffering. It's nothing like chemo. And it's deeply troubling that you would think that chemo and natural disasters are comparable. I'm afraid superstition has vandalized your mind and completely corrupted your compassion.
Come back to humanity my friend.
P.S. I'm still waiting for your response on why it was okay for God to intervene in human affairs in the past but can't do so now.
 +4 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 11 days ago

Its late here but I would like to make a point. The danger and negativity of Acts's contentions are serious. If we accept them it leads to us sitting in a proverbial cave waiting for all the nasty things to end and for god to make it all better. We have proved that we are useless and have no ability to flourish on our own. The result? We don't even try. Wedin't educate ourselves, we don't try and find a cure for cancer, we don't try to solve climate change. We just sit, read our bibles pray with our arms folded and hope.
Meanwhile, those god-forsaken atheists are working to understand our world, solve it's problems and make life better for it's inhabitants. There are no guarantees that we will succeed, evolution may say otherwise but looking at the evidence of the last few centuries the progress is un-questionable. The war is not won, there is much yet to do but battles are being won every day. Now i'm going to bed.
I would say that education, striving for answers and improvement and refusing to accept the ascendancy of evil makes it 1:0 to man v god.
Don' wait for god. Let's help things along to the best of our ability.
 +7 / -0
prologos
prologos 10 days ago
Sliding Fast; Meanwhile, those god-forsaken atheists are working to understand our world, solve it's problems and make life better for it's inhabitants. There are no guarantees that we will succeed, evolution may say otherwise "-- Atheists are not the only ones doing that, believers, deists are involved too. The premise that any defined "god" or "satan" wants to prove that we need them to succeed is wrong, to the contrary, success is rewarded in this existence, but, to assert that just because we are figuring out how things work, does not mean at all, that at some very deep level a creator is not behind the all.
 +0 / -1
LisaRose
LisaRose 10 days ago

onestly, like all other ex-watchtower I understand the horrors of realising that we've been hoodwinked and the feelings that induces - and I can imagine how easy it is to simply discard God to put an end to any chance of touching belief again. But that attitude - and I mean attitude - loses us so much.
Even after realizing the Watchtower was a bunch of lies I wanted to believe in God. I liked the comfort of belief and being part of a religious community. But my need or desire for those things doesn't mean God exists, and I couldn't fool myself that it did.
In a real sense, the watchtower is making people believe even after they've left: they're making them believe that God and the watchtower are somehow genuinely linked, so that they must reject both.
Not really, at least in my case. I could see how the Watchtower has twisted and manipulated the scriptures and that there are other ways a sincere person could interpret the scriptures. I found churches that were acceptable to me and that I felt were compatible with the scriptures. But finding an acceptable church doesn't mean God exists any more than bad churches prove he doesn't.
They're making people believe in no God ever again. Didn't we leave to be free of that influence? why should we have to disbelieve, just because we leave them?
Obviously we don't have to believe or disbelieve because of the Watchtower. But questioning the Watchtower started me on a path at looking at many things in a more critical way. Once I disproved the Watchtower I couldn't just stop there, I had to look at the evidence for belief in God as well. If the facts had supported belief in God I would have been happy to continue believing in him, but they did not. I had to go where the facts took me.
 +6 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 10 days ago


Acts said: Well Heaven, as any child who cries at having a painful operation comes to realise, there is usually a reason.
What if the child were determined to hate his father who sent him for chemo? Even a child could understand that, in the longer term, there was a good reason.
There's a reason for our Heavenly Father's inaction too, but it seems people would rather enjoy their hatred than consider they might be mistaken.
Willful negligence is not a painful operation. It is willingly and completely ignoring the problem. The one sure way to make a problem worse is to take no action and just ignore it. The JWs do this with their 'Pray More + Wait on Jehovah' advice. This a formula for failure.


Acts said: I know its painful to revisit the seat of disppointment - but children manage it. They are made upset, they cry, they go into a lonely corner,... but they don't build a barrier, they don't say "never again". They wipe their eyes, they try again - perhaps because they're too young and vulnerable and they don't know how to build a shell for themselves - and there is too much in the world that they feel is out there for them to waste blocking out what they do not yet understand. Its only as we get stronger that we feel we can isolate ourselves - but that strength keeps out many things.
Being left without the necessities of life is not a 'seat of disappointment' nor a painful operation. One does not get 'stronger' in this scenario, but weaker and sicker until one dies. This is a sure fire recipe for an agonizingly tortuous death.

The 'Heavenly Father', as described in the Bible, is not an example of ethics or morals to emulate. He pitted 2 brothers against one another. He setup a system of perpetuating the human species via incest. He encouraged the murder of children. He agrees with slavery. He demands a raped woman must marry her rapist. He created evil. He is the god of war.
His authorities justify their actions using the factually inaccurate, contradictory Bible as a foundation for their made up doctrines and dogma. They perpetuate lies and browbeating, particularly the one that if we don't believe the way they believe, we will be judged and, if found unworthy, punished. In the ancient past, punishment was doled out in a number of gruesomely, horrific ways. In our modern world, some religions still perform these kinds of barbaric rituals. For others, it's the threat of torture in the afterworld that is made to coerce people into believing, without any evidence, lies as truth. For JWs, it is the threat of not living forever on paradise Earth. Some religions, like the JWs, coerce people into performing tasks for their organization without compensation. Religion is abuse, oppression, and slavery. They get this from God's word, the Bible. To espouse these virtues is psychopathic and evil.

 +3 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 9 days ago
I am not quite ready to stop believing in a "higher being", but one thing is for sure: if there is a "higher being" or "god" out there, it does not give a **** about us.
 +2 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 9 days ago

I am not quite ready to stop believing in a "higher being"
Why not noname? Genuine question.
 +1 / -0
done4good
done4good 9 days ago


Were God to intervene in a small way - heal a famine, abate a war, remove some dictator - we would rely on it and never actually learn, and God would become a kind of on-call fixer rather than the Father He should be.
I usually stay far away from these atheist vs. theist discussions, as rarely are they productive, (although never hide the fact I am atheist), but this is quite possibly the worst rationale I have ever seen for the explanation of why an omnipotent god would allow suffering. What kind of "father" would allow those things if it was in his power to do something about it???
d4g

 +3 / -1
cofty
cofty 9 days ago
Acts5 seems to have vanished.
 
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 9 days ago

Good riddance, their departure is a fresh breath of air.
I enjoy honest debates - honest questions and honest answers. But I have little patience for subterfuge or fallacious apologetics.
 +1 / -2
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 days ago

Acts5 seems to have vanished....cofty
.........Acts5v29 is Nursing a Convalescent Relative..
.............Image result for convalescent
 
cofty
cofty 9 days ago
How kind of her to supply a picture of her sick relative.
 +1 / -1

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



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Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL 13 days ago 154 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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nicolaou
nicolaou 9 days ago
Reading through Acts5v29 last posts it was clear she really wasn't engaging with the debate, she seemed genuinely surprised she wasn't being taken seriously. She reminded me of my teenage uber JW self and yes, I wish someone had gotten in my face 35 years ago and given me something to think about . . .
 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 days ago


How kind of her to supply a picture of her sick relative.....cofty
You never miss an Opportunity to Be a Prick..
I knew she would be leaving a few days ago and why..
I supplied the photo (it`s a stock photo) to give readers a visual...
She did leave a Message for You though..

If you ever speak to coffy, please send my sincere best wishes - just as I send to you.....Acts5v29
She`s much Kinder to You..
Than You would Ever Be to Her..
 +3 / -1
No Longer a JW Brother
No Longer a JW Brother 9 days ago
I can't say for sure that he does exist but I can't say that he doesn't so that makes me agnostic but not without purpose.

 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 9 days ago

Maybe this or similar is back in the Thread somewhere, Jeez, I can't read the whole feckin thing :
Cofty has a challenge that says something like "Tell me what you mean by "god" and I will prove "he" doesn't exist".
Take Cofty up on it , if you think you are agnostic.
I don't believe in ANYTHING ! ( "belief" meaning accepting something is true, without real, testable evidence.)
 
ULFBERHT
ULFBERHT 9 days ago

Nope.
Looking back, I don't think I ever really did.

 
cofty
cofty 9 days ago

I supplied the photo (it`s a stock photo) to give readers a visual... - Outlaw
How very thoughtful of you
Outlaw you have been looking for a new nutty evangelist to hook up with since the last pair you adored got the boot. I know how much you love to play the hero and take offense on behalf of others. I'm so happy for you that you have found somebody new
Phizzy - I agree. When people talk to their fellow believers about god the know exactly what they mean. When you ask a challenging question they get all coy and start waffling about vague non-personal entities.
An agnostic is just an atheist who needs to do some more thinking.
 +1 / -3
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 days ago
The more I read and the more I think the less certain I become.
 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty 9 days ago
SBF - You can't even bring yourself to affirm that planet earth is not flat. How are you ever going to decide about important things?
 +2 / -2
jookbeard
jookbeard 9 days ago
how's our poor put upon buddy these days?
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 days ago

Of course I agree that the earth is round. But I also agree with Quine that, "no statement is immune to revision".
 +2 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 days ago


How very thoughtful of you
Outlaw you have been looking for a new nutty evangelist to hook up with since the last pair you adored got the boot. I know how much you love to play the hero. I'm so happy for you that you have found somebody new.....cofty
Acts5v29 is Gone..
.

Your Waging an Endless 24/7,Relentless War,on an Imaginary Character......God..
Acts5v29 is using Her Time to Help a Relative in Need..
You could use Acts5v29 as an Example..
 To Do Something with Your Life that Matters..


 +4 / -1
cofty
cofty 9 days ago

Outlaw as I have shared with you many times I never talk about god ever to anybody apart from when I comment on this religious discussion forum.
Apart from having more interests in life than I could list, during the past 20 years I have spent many hundreds of hours working with young people in sport. I count that as doing something that matters.
 +2 / -1
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 days ago


Apart from having more interests in life than I could list, during the past 20 years I have spent many hundreds of hours working with young people in sport. I count that as doing something that matters......Cofty
You spend a Great Deal of Your Time here..
Proselytizing Atheism,Bullying People who Don`t Agree with You..And..
Waging War on an Imaginary Character.....God..
.

..........................................It`s Extremely Easy to See..
.....Who`s Making a "Real Difference" to "Make the World a Better Place"..

Image result for atheist t argue.......Image result for Convalescent
 +2 / -2
cofty
cofty 9 days ago

Outlaw - Your repeated personal attacks are tedious.
I could not possibly exaggerate how little I care about your opinion of me, but your childishness detracts from the forum. It's like the kid at school who always disrupted the class to get attention. If you really feel the need to insult me some more take it to a PM.
 +2 / -1
alecholmesthedetective
alecholmesthedetective 8 days ago

I wish someone had gotten in my face 35 years ago and given me something to think about . . .
Ditto. I remember the times my 'worldly' friends at work would ask questions about my beliefs back then and when I couldn't justify them. Simple questions, but once you get thinking and follow the evidence where it leads you then there is no going back.
 

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Topic Summary
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.
i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.
as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 2 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago



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Posting Rules

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lf you had the opportunity to ask the GB a question what would it be?
by atomant 13 days ago 26 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 13 days ago
l thought this would be an interesting exercise to read the different responses. My question is what makes you think your gods chosen medium?and prove it.

 +3 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 13 days ago

My question: Why don't you (GB) drop dead.
 +2 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 13 days ago

How many of you are awake and how many are just dumb?
Who's really in charge of the business?
Which one of you is a mason?
How do you sleep at night knowing you've killed children and adults through the blood doctrine and caused hundreds of suicides through tearing families apart and caused thousands of children to be raped by not reporting to police the paedophiles?
How much money do you launder through the donations and how much money do you hide by falsifying building costs?
Your long-term strategy sucks in the age of information so what huge changes are you planning?
Just how friendly are you with the zionist jewish leaders and do you have a combined strategy to bring about the descending of jesus to earth using modern technology?
I could go on... but it's making me angry.
 +4 / -0
TipsyMangoTea
TipsyMangoTea 13 days ago

Question: Is the Organization involved with the Cabal? When extraterrestrials become publicly recognized, will you announce it as "new light," too, or will you simply call them demons?
Also, who amongst the GB is allergic to garlic?
 +1 / -1
atomant
atomant 13 days ago
l love this site,Image result for love heart image
 +3 / -0
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 13 days ago


Skedaddle '....do you have a combined strategy to bring about the descending of jesus to earth using modern technology?....'

Finally a question that makes perfect sense!

 +1 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 13 days ago
Skedaddle, It said, A QUESTION. LOL
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 13 days ago
Boxers or briefs?
 +1 / -0
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 13 days ago

What is your name?
What is your quest?
What is the airspeed velocity of a winged sparrow?
 +4 / -0
steve2
steve2 13 days ago
How long have you had such large breasts and how do you cope with bra-chaffing?
 +1 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 13 days ago

@ sabin - I know but I got angry lol. Sorry, but if i got the chance i'd elbow you all out of the way anyway! Haha
@ esse - Finally a question that makes perfect sense! Yes, it's just a theory at this stage and i know it's out there but putting lots of pieces together it does make perfect sense. Well, now i've said it. It's out. I haven't found this theory anywhere it's just a scenario that's bugging me, fits the agenda for multiple parties and the various technologies are being tested. I think i'd better shut up now. I hope the brakes will continue to work on my car arghhh lol!

 
berrygerry
berrygerry 13 days ago

How do you sleep at night?
How do you live with yourself?
Even Judas showed that he had a conscience - why can't you?

 +4 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 13 days ago

Are the Watchtower investing in medical companies to find a cure for death?
Are jw rest homes now owned by watchtower and do you take tax payers money from the government to pay for each residents stay?
Do you know you're a bunch of c@nts?
I've got too angry again so better go and cool off again...
 +1 / -0
Mephis
Mephis 13 days ago
Won't you be screwed if there's no wifi in paradise?
 +4 / -0
freddo
freddo 13 days ago

1. When did you realise that jw doctrine was false for the other sheep and you weren't going to be in paradise and so decided to sip the wine so you could lord it over the flock instead?
2. Not a question but a back up thought to 1. I bet you were a trevelling overseer or bethelite with "some power" when the penny dropped, eh?
 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 13 days ago

Why did G.Jackson swear on the Bible at the ARC , Matt.5:34-37. whereas other Elders made an affirmation , declining to swear on the Bile.?
I thought J.W,`s claimed to be united in their beliefs.?
Jehovah`s Witnesses official policy is that Blood is sacred and it should be poured out on the ground and not used in any way , including Blood & Bone Fertilizer in the garden.
Yet the Governing Body approves Blood fractions to be used in life saving techniques used by the Medical profession while denying whole blood transfusions ,
Where does the Governing Body think that Blood Fractions come from ?
Blood fractions are derived from whole blood that is donated by donors in the community , stored and then processed in a Laboratory , whether they be members of Christendom , non Christians , Atheists , and others , all of which are classified as deserving of death at Armageddon as enemy`s of God..
Jehovah`s Witnesses are forbidden to donate Blood and will be DF if they do , even for their own use for fractions to be used at a later date if need be., yet they have the approval to use fractions of blood donated by Satans system of things,
Some witnesses have said to me "Oh no I wouldn`t take fractions of blood , they miss the point the Governing Body says it`s OK .
Now isn`t that a contradiction ? Hypocrisy ? Double Standards ?
smiddy
 
salvatore
salvatore  13 days ago

This is my firs post. I habe just joined the forum. A bit about me:
Male, active JW, baptised at 17 in 1982. Simple publisher who reports an average of 5.5h/month.
These would be my questions to teh GB:
1. Why did the GB never apologise publicly for the mistakes of erroneously pointing to dates, like 1925, 1975?
2. Why do we need to report the number of hours we spend in the ministry, surely this is a private gift to Jehovah, so it should be private. (if it were not for upsetting my wife I would starty putting an "x" on the hour coloumn!)
3. Why the GB keep the finance of the world wide work secret? Surely if we belong to the org. I need to know how the money is spent and if we need to give more or not, in order to gauge my contributions (personally I stopped putting money, morally I cannot accept that Millions have been used to pay out lost court cases for child abuse)
4. Why have we stopped the TMS with talks which were used to train males to become public speakers? Are we going to see a decline in public speaking skills now that we do not instruct males through the TMS?

 +3 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 13 days ago

Do you appreciate that you are waited on hand and foot. Do you thank these people?
Specifically to Stephen Lett: if you have trouble tying your laces, have you ever thought about buying Velcro shoes?
 +1 / -0
Brian Bode
Brian Bode 13 days ago




1) If scientific results from reasonable carefully controlled, double blind, peer-reviewed, repeatable, falsifiable, experiments done countless times, that continually prove something as a fact, and that fact happens to be out of harmony with our interpretation of a Bible passage, are we to conclude our interpretation of the passage is wrong?
2) Have any facts from Biology, (such as DNA & ERV evidence) ever shaped the organizational interpretation of passages? If not, why?
 3) If the Gov. Body admits to not having God's voice telling them what to do, why does it matter if you guys are unanimous? Are you searching for omens from Satan's world to decide?
4) If decisions simply boil down to human perception anyway, why not use proven facts from science to help shape your limited human perception?
5) Why is the "rule book" only for Elders?
6) By running away from facts in order to promote deception, are you not reflecting a characteristic of the great deceiver Satan? If not, what scripture tells you to promote deception?










 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

I would ask them if it bothers their conscience at all knowing that the organization which they govern and dictate over was established by fraudulent commercialized devious means ?

 

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lf you had the opportunity to ask the GB a question what would it be?
by atomant 13 days ago 26 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Vidiot
Vidiot 12 days ago
"How many of you like boys?"
 +3 / -0
20yearfader
20yearfader 12 days ago

I would ask them if they wanted me to punch them in the face or the gut
 +2 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 12 days ago

Has brother Lett got any teeth on the upper right side as one looks at him?
Does Anthony Morris III use an electric sander on his face?
If not... has he been embalmed?
Could JWTV... be any worse?
Do you guys say ''Yippeee!'' every time you press delete in the JDub.Org library?
Jay-Z says... can he have his Rolex's back?
If it's ''presumptuous'' that you're the only ones God communicates with on earth, then WTF are we all doing here?
Can brother Herd... be arsed?

Are some of the rules like tight pants, for shitz n giggles?

When you move the donations money around until it reaches Brooklyn, are you scared it might cause a whirlwind?
Is it that you're just jealous that your saggy thighs and asses don't look good in tight pants?
Is the reason you don't change the two witness rule because nobody understands subtraction?
Which is greater, the number of books you've opened in the bible or the number of books you've never opened in the bible?
If Armageddon is imminent, did you remember to pop a pope-mobile down on the expenses before the factory gets destroyed?
When are you ordering the JDUB JET?
 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 12 days ago
Are you NUTS!!!
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 11 days ago
At what point exact moment did you know you were anointed and how did you know?
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 11 days ago
By the time you get to being on the GB you know enough of the workings and history of the religion, you must know it is not directed by Jehovah. How do you justify deceiving the followers by saying otherwise?
 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 11 days ago

Yesterday I answered a similar question on Quora.com.
After stating that they usually don't answer honestly anyway, this is what I wrote:
The questions are aimed at gaining some insight into their minds and motives.◦Please tell me which current and former JW teachings you disagree with, and why?
◦Can you explain how you know for sure that you personally are chosen by God to lead His people under Christ, and other people are not?
◦How do you feel about the fact that many people suffer(ed) severely from poverty, depression, all sorts of abuse, and even died because of current and abandoned JW policies (on blood, organ transplants, neutrality, shunning, child abuse, spousal violence, education, etc) that you and other men like you have enforced?
From the answers it should become clear that this person is either1.100% certified KoolAid drinker (and dispenser). Sorry, can't help those.
1.Struggling with or ignoring doubts just like any other regular JW. Maybe we can help him out.
1.Knows it's a scam (and is still in because he's a coward or an @55hole). Well then I do have an axe to grind!
Bonus questions:◦What's Tony's (Anthony Morris III) problem with tight pants, and why is he afraid of homosexuals?
◦Do you think Stephen Lett is a clown too?
 

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Topic Summary
l thought this would be an interesting exercise to read the different responses.
my question is what makes you think your gods chosen medium?and prove it.



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What's the purpose of being a JW now?
by MrTheocratic 13 days ago 27 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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MrTheocratic
MrTheocratic 13 days ago
With all the recent changes to this religion, what really is the purpose of being a JW? Especially for those who have been in and witnessed all the changes and still no sight of the end. For these ones in particular (35-55 year olds) they must be in a state of confusion. And if they are totally honest with themselves they must be asking ..."why continue? " Even though I'm still in I'm awake and I go through the motions. ....I can't for the life of me, understand how anyone with a honest mind can continue to believe that these men in Brooklyn are somehow divine? This I believe is the reason why recent converts to the organization have been persons who are either psychologically impaired or have drug issues ( I'm basing this off of what I see locally), not normal people. A normal person would see no use for this religion. What do you think?
 +8 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 13 days ago
Saving oneself from destruction at Armageddon
 +5 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 13 days ago
It's as Angus Stewart said 'a captive religion.'
 +9 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 13 days ago

The smile, the talk of God, the congregation to worship together - all of those are attractive and what people want and see, and the bad things are not even thought about.
Better to be lonely ringing a bell and calling out "unclean" than to bathe in whitewash and infect those you attract.
 +3 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 13 days ago


What's the purpose of being a JW now?..
..........................................Image result for jw.org merchandise
.

...Image result for jw.org merchandise..Image result for jw.org merchandise..Image result for jw.org merchandise
 +14 / -0
lurkernomore
lurkernomore 13 days ago

I went for a drink with an Elder in his early 30's a few weeks back and although he respected my wish not to go into why I no longer attended he just had to mention all the great changes which are happening because we're sooo close to the end. He's a bright lad as well, but just a bit potty for the org.
Then just yesterday I got talking to an ex Elder (he stepped down years ago due to mental health issues) and although being all about 'The Truth' he did say he couldn't go on much longer and longs for the new system. He's in in late 40's now, so from my experience it is ones in this group upwards that are feeling the strain of not getting what was promised by the GB.
Oh and I just remembered overhearing a group of older ladies in their 70's joking yet serious, about how they didn't think they would see 70 in this system of things!!! CD at its finest.
 +8 / -0
sherrie11
sherrie11 13 days ago
Its a cult!
 +6 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
it appeals to a certain personality type, how many eccentric, neurotic,narcissistic types have we seen over the years in our jw life, plus another appeal is the sheep like ones, introverted, who love being controlled and directed in almost every facet of their life, plus the old well worn cliché that always comes up; "where else is there to go?" or as my father always used to say " if I was the only jw left on the entire planet I'd still believe it" Its self serving also many use it as a good buisness networking tool, sadly we have to accept it will be around far longer after many of us will have passed.
 +4 / -0
FormerlySandL
FormerlySandL 13 days ago

It sells a dream just as it does for the millions of people who buy lottery tickets despite the chances of winning being very slim (admittedly some DO win the lottery though ).
They are told repeatedly what an awful world it is and how close we are to the end. It takes a brave person to give up at this stage.
It also provides a protective network and shield that they can retreat behind so when they see the bad things on the news they can get comfort by thinking it will all end soon.
For most, it is all they have ever known. Any changes made are made to seem plausible and the congregations are conditioned to feel grateful for such changes as its evidence of the light getting brighter and jehovahs spirit directing the congregation.
 +11 / -0
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 13 days ago

jookbeard you wrote: "...how many eccentric, neurotic,narcissistic types have we seen over the years in our jw life"
Well I'm still eccentric - check. I'm still neurotic - check. And I'm still a narcissist - check. This is all very troubling. I'm going to have to do some self re-evaluation.
What's the purpose of being a JW now?
Counting hours? Perhaps getting some new gear like an iPad?
I think the old answer is still the best answer: universal afterlife insurance.
 +6 / -0
2+2=5
2+2=5 13 days ago
Really bright African garb, fruit platters and a lion petting zoo with a pet panda.... for trillions and trillions upon billions of years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 +8 / -0
a watcher
a watcher 13 days ago
The same as it's always been: to serve Jehovah and to help others serve Jehovah.

 +1 / -1
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 13 days ago

For me, remaining a JW, labeled 'spiritually weak' as it is, still grants me love and communication/interaction with hubby, parents, extended family and so many friends. These human relationships are worth the tiny bit of misery endured at the meetings/assemblies/service/memorial.
I emphasize the positive interactions and fun before and afterwards, so this has helped me to persevere for decades since knowing TTATT. The fact that the guilt is gone since becoming part of the 'conscious class' has helped immensely.
DY
 +7 / -1
Giordano
Giordano 13 days ago
I think it was the banality of the meetings. The stupidity of the WT publications. The circle reasoning and the boredom. It was tedious being a JW. It was a limited existence based on made up beliefs. There's a heavy price to pay to stay close to conditional friendships and family that embrace's rational ignorance. Getting out in our young twenties was the game changer for our lives.
 +9 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago
Because the end is closer than ever, for a JW.
 +4 / -0
pale.emperor
pale.emperor 12 days ago

I was told at 9 years old i'd never leave Primary school in this system.
Then i'd finished primary school i was told i'd never leave High school in this system.
Then when i left High school i was told deinately - DEFINATELY it will come in my lifetime.
Now, us JW's of that generation look at our kids and tell them "you'll never leave primary school in this system..."
I do wonder, if i get to 80yo and still nothing has happened i'll think... oh bugger, there goes my life.

 +7 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 12 days ago
The purpose of being a JW now is the same as their purpose was in the past. Perpetuate the organization. The tactics have changed but not the goal.
 +7 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 11 days ago
The only viable purpose in being a JW is to avoid being shunned by JW family - that is if you already are a JW. There is no purpose in becoming a JW.

 +4 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 11 days ago


the boredom. It was tedious being a JW. It was a limited existence based on made up beliefs. There's a heavy price to pay to stay close to conditional friendships and family that embrace's rational ignorance. Getting out in our young twenties was the game changer for our lives


Newbs,lurkers and those mentally out and deciding your future , please listen to the wise words and long experience of Giordano - your REAL, PRESENT AND ONLY LIFE WILL DEPEND ON IT
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 11 days ago

The purpose of being a JW is to make more JW,'s.
In the immortal words of Talking Heads " same as it ever was"
 +1 / -1

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What's the purpose of being a JW now?
by MrTheocratic 13 days ago 27 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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flipper
flipper 11 days ago

I truly believe for most JW's who are still in and have doubts- it's the old cliché that "ignorance is bliss " - they WANT to keep their heads in the sand like ostriches ignoring the facts about the WT Society's injustices because it's a familiar feeling to them to be in an organization with everybody else feeling duped and disempowered as well.
It's kind of like abuse victims in a bad abusive marriage who refuse to leave- yes, it's bad, it hurts - but abuse is all they've known so they grow accustomed to the abuse- it's familiar to them and they are afraid or fearful to leave because it's all they've ever known. I feel JW's are this way because their minds have been programmed to know nothing else. It's a bad situation but to them it's less fearful than " the unknown " outside the organization. I think that's it in a nutshell. If only they'd take a chance and breathe the fresh air of freedom away from the mind control cult JW's they'd be a lot happier. But once again - they don't even realize that could happen having been pre-programmed in their hardwired WT brains. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 +5 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 11 days ago

Hello flipper,

I truly believe for most JW's who are still in and have doubts- it's the old cliché that "ignorance is bliss " - they WANT to keep their heads in the sand like ostriches ignoring the facts about the WT Society's injustices because it's a familiar feeling to them to be in an organization with everybody else feeling duped and disempowered as well.
Its always easier to stick with whatever seems strong against the challengers - just as when new atheist feels they have been duped by religion for years, they feel strong in their atheism. I don't think either side has to do much proving, just let the angst and the abuse of the opposing side be the glue which keeps their own membership.
Christ said it is important to approach like a child - and children cry at sad things years before they build a resolute attitude. He really had something there.
 +1 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 11 days ago

Giordano said---- Getting out in our young twenties was the game changer for our lives.



same for me.



 +2 / -0
Stirred
Stirred 11 days ago

With all do respect, I don't think abuse victims stay because it's all they've known or because it's familiar, or wanting to keep ignorant.
Many get trapped for financial reasons, family, lacked access to proper info, self-doubt, feeling unworthy, lack of practical support. depression can be paralyzing. Many are worn out and frazzled trying to keep up and are holding on for hope of fulfilled promise to see dead loved ones again or to restore health to loved ones or self. Many are not Internet savy or care to use it for curther study.
To open your eyes fully can bring more fear and sadness .....it is a kind of part peraonal death to accept TTAT. For me, it became too abusive to stay for my kids and I and it was a rather reluctant and progressive awakening. I was so busy with work, kids, family issues and massive change, I was missing or oushing off many things due to shallow study. When I had bursts of deep atudy, doibts would surface but frquently I had too much chaos and busy life with little kids to manage maintaining the study and would fall back to routine. If issues had been known earlier, I would have left way sooner.
Getting an iPad to help lessen book load, then using whatever sites I could find to get digital KM helped me awaken and study deeper. Thanks JW Facts and other who published early on, free PDF of KM and other documents.



awakening
 +3 / -0
done4good
done4good 11 days ago

Village Idiot has it closest to the truth, from the perspective of the organization.
From an individual JW's perspective, it is pretty much the same as any other belief system. It is mostly about survival. Keeping one's worldview intact is a key component of that, for many.
The two means working toward either end make for system that entraps leaders and followers alike. It is what allows all authoritarian systems to perpetuate themselves.

d4g

 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 11 days ago

Its like gambling, many have gone all in.
The older one's have invested all their lives, their resources, they have brought up there kids in this belief system and grandchildren, they have alienated family due to Jw mandates and dogma and have rejected association with them and in so many words have said they will 'perish in Armageddon', Said to them "you are living a lie, you are in a false religion."

Imagine for a second the implication for them to entertain the idea, that they might be wrong?

Everything they hold true and dear is in the "truth" if its wrong they would become very ill and depressed, I dare to say they would just want to die.
The younger one's under 40 still have a chance and many are waking up. I know many that are on the edge. They attend and some have privileges but they really don't believe it all, they are the one questioning stuff quietly and with friends, I have been part of some, of these discussion but always hold my tongue, because if you get me started I wont know when to stop.Then you a the zealots their the torch carriers they will take this religion to the next generation, they will restructure this religion and it will become unrecognizable.

MC

 +1 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 11 days ago

MRTHEOCRATIC:
Most Witnesses are trapped because of family, etc. Many others are simply too old to go elsewhere and their pride would be shattered!
For some, it is all about being in the "right" club! Doesn't matter what the JWs teach.
LHG
 +1 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 11 days ago
The way out is more difficult than staying put. I feel that many of the friends, are still here but not fully in; they are in a state of inertia. All the reasons that have been mentioned, family, finances, friends and many more are part of the equation.
 

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Topic Summary
with all the recent changes to this religion, what really is the purpose of being a jw?
especially for those who have been in and witnessed all the changes and still no sight of the end.
for these ones in particular (35-55 year olds) they must be in a state of confusion.



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Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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wwjdnwt
27
Jehovah's Witnesses the richest religion in the world..
by wwjdnwt in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
i don't post here too much..i am more of a lurker.

but, wanted to share recent conversation with jw family member.. one of my jw relatives recently went to visit another jw relative that is "serving where the need is great",.

when my jw relative returned home and i was talking with him, who is an older jw who has been in for over 50 years, was so excited to tell me about the special talk.

Je.suis.oisif
steve2
Sabin
9 days ago
FormerlySandL
154
Do you still believe in God?
by FormerlySandL in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
i never thought i would admit it, but i don't.

i might superstitiously have some kind of doubt but digging a bit deeper in my heart i really don't believe in god.

as a human i could never just sit and watch people be tortured, live years of abuse, suffer from illness and disabilities and all the other awful things people have to endure day after day without doing something about it.

OUTLAW
cofty
alecholmesthedetective
8 days ago
MrTheocratic
27
What's the purpose of being a JW now?
by MrTheocratic in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
with all the recent changes to this religion, what really is the purpose of being a jw?

especially for those who have been in and witnessed all the changes and still no sight of the end.

for these ones in particular (35-55 year olds) they must be in a state of confusion.

MarkofCane
LongHairGal
Hecce
11 days ago
berrygerry
7
Eggs - how would you like them done?
by berrygerry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
post on another forum prompted this one.. wt is flip-flopping on the "no marriage for you" (voice of seinfeld soup nazi) to placate the 50% of jw women who will never marry "in this system.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20140815/jesus-sadducees-marriage-after-resurrection/.

however, we do know that wt also taught that marriage was for procreation.

Heaven
Vidiot
LisaRose
12 days ago
atomant
26
lf you had the opportunity to ask the GB a question what would it be?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 days ago
l thought this would be an interesting exercise to read the different responses.

my question is what makes you think your gods chosen medium?and prove it.

Listener
jwfacts
Anders Andersen
11 days ago
stillin
6
You would think they would be embarrassed
by stillin in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 days ago
to tout the fact that jesus christ is the head of the congregation is fine... if he was.

a quick glance at the page in the back of the current study wt seems to say otherwise.

if you recall, they print up a page at the end of every year with a quick rundown of the articles for the previous year.. surprise!

Vidiot
Tenacious
Listener
12 days ago
berrygerry
10
Question for Cart-Watchers
by berrygerry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 days ago
q. what is more important, the bible teach book or the bible itself?.

a. the bible, of course.. q. then why do you only display these books, and not the bible?.

OnTheWayOut
blondie
Beth Sarim
13 days ago
NeonMadman
7
The Watchtower Letters
by NeonMadman in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 15 days ago
several years ago, i put together a compilation of various types of correspondence between me and the watchtower society, that occurred over the 30 years i was a jw.

some was just administrative stuff, like pioneer appointments and letters.

but there were also several letters that i wrote regarding doctrinal issues, including some sensitive ones.

Tenacious
Listener
baldeagle
12 days ago
Hecce
16
JWs the kings of plagiarism
by Hecce in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 15 days ago
the wt used to be rich for the quality of their public speakers, at the top of the ladder were the dos motivating the brothers on a weekly basis.

some of them used very folksy experiences related to the brothers as motivational tools, when you left the convention those experiences were the talk of the town.

i remember one very well qualified brother serving as do that was constantly using those sort of experiences as part of his arsenal, at one time he related one about a sister that new that she was going to die soon and while meeting with the family and brothers for final preparations she requested to be buried with a fork in her hand.

Hecce
WTWizard
stuckinarut2
14 days ago
Terry
12
RESPONSIBILITY vs. "moral" Responsibility (What is the distinction and what is the difference?)
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 15 days ago
this is not intended to be a highbrow discussion!.

you ( ought ) to pay me back that $100.

.. bank loan.

Ruby456
Ruby456
Terry
13 days ago
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