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THE PURPLE TRIANGLE! Would you force children to watch it?
by vomit 10 years ago 13 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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vomit
vomit 10 years ago

One of my worst memorys as a child, just before my mother was bapthised was when her study conductor had the idea of everybody watching the "Purple Triangle" together. I was about 11, I didnt want to watch it from the outset and a few minutes in, I really didnt want to watch it. In my nature I hate anything to do with violence, 20 years later I still feel watching that at such a young age does not build positive effects.
Has anybody else here watched it?
 
Nosferatu
Nosferatu 10 years ago

I watched it as a child and thought it was boring.
 
kittyeatzjdubs
kittyeatzjdubs 10 years ago

my sister's congo actually had a party to watch it....
cheesecake, nachos, and everything....sick basturds....
i was 7 or 8 at the time....

luv, jojo
 
stillAwitness
stillAwitness 10 years ago

I'm a scuker for anything having to do with death. I cried my eyes out when I saw it and have never wanted to see it since.
I read an interesting article about that whole 'purple triangle' issue. Many scholars believe that Hitler had nothing against the DUBS except for the fact that he just throught they were weird if you will. That's why he allowed them the option to not even be in the camps.
Yet, we all know the Society likes to insist that Hitler was "attacking our faith" and all. When really, its been said that Hitler just thought they were quacks.
 
kittyeatzjdubs
kittyeatzjdubs 10 years ago

when we had to do a history report on WWII in 8 grade, my mom MADE me mention the dubs........so embarassing!!!
luv, jojo
 
Carmel
Carmel 10 years ago

Never heard of it! Then of course I'm not into flicks.
carmel
 
The Lone Ranger
The Lone Ranger 10 years ago

I’ve seen the movie and I wouldn’t let my kids watch it because its propaganda, it’s just a one-sided story to make JW’s look good. I’m not saying the family’s story isn’t true, but truth is greater then fiction, and particularly in war time, their are many stories of bravery and sacrifice, many people gave up their life to save others and to reject Hitler, some were German citizens and they also opposed Hitler till the death and their story is just one of many, but because they didn’t belong to a cult who is trying to get some publicity then we don’t hear of them.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 10 years ago

I was going to watch it but could never be bothered.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

Mental boot camp
{{ During the 1960's we had K.Hall service meeting skits on how to endure rape torture and plunder and lessons on drinking my own urine in the concentration camps during the final assult of 'gog of magog'."Cuban dictator Castro wrapped two of our faithful bro's in barbed wire, and buried them alive in a vat of wet cement." Would i as an 8 year old be as strong for Jehover? }}
From Danny's blog
 
rebel8
rebel8 10 years ago

stilla, you might find this interesting. Another example of the WTS' lack of political neutrality, this time with the Nazis! http://www.freeminds.org/history/sleeping.htm
 
LDH
LDH 10 years ago

Shit, I wouldn't even watch this garbage. I was doing my fade as it came out. Early 90's?
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

I already have forced them to watch it
 
vomit
vomit 10 years ago

stillajwexelder: Naughty Naughty!
I was just thinking to myself, if i forced that sister to watch pornography I would be up for sexual assault. Personaly I always felt violence is far worse than porn. The purple triangel has it all Naked men women and children with some snuff thrown in for good ol fashioned shock value.
 
Finally-Free
Finally-Free 10 years ago

I watched it with some other JWs. I don't remember much of it because I wasn't really paying attention to it - I focused my attentions on the pizza and snacks. My inattention was deliberate. My mom, grandmother, and oldest sister were in camps during the war - not German, but Russian camps - and I heard enough first hand experiences to last me a lifetime.
W
 

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Destroy any JW's faith that they are the only true religion in 5 easy steps
by Must obey! 8 years ago 29 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Must obey!
Must obey! 8 years ago

Try this on the next JW you meet:
1. Ask the JW what religious group Jesus selected in 1919 to be his faithful and discreet slave organisation? The JW will answer: "Pastor Russell & the Bible Students"GOOD!!
2. Now, ask the JW whether Charles Taze Russell and the early Bible Students were anointed Christians, of the heavenly class. The JW will answer: "Why, yes, of course they were."GOOD!!
3. Now, ask the JW whether they are aware that there are still thousands of Bible Students today who believe and preach the same things that C T Russell and the early Bible Students believed and taught. The JW will pause for a bit and then say:"Really? Wow, ok..wasn't aware of that."GOOD!!
4 Now, ask the JW why, if CT Russell and the early Bible Students were definitely anointed, which the Watchtower asserts, and their beliefs were good enough for Jesus to uniquely select them back in 1919, which is also asserted by the Watchtower, then why would they not be good enough for Jesus today? The JW will pause even longer this time, his mind turning over, struggling to get around the logical paradox he sees looming.GOOD!!
5. Finally, ram home the point by saying "this logically means Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be the one true religion because the Bible Students still in existence today must also be acceptable to Jesus since they were acceptable to him in 1919. Both groups have faults but both JW's and the Bible Students today must be OK in God's eyes."The JW will mumble something vague like "Yeah I see your point...possibly...but,..well, I'll have to give that more thought and get back to you.."BINGO!!
This has worked a treat for me with some of my JW friends and relatives. It's a very humbling point that they find practically impossible to get out of. Some of them try to continue to assert that the Bible Students are no longer true Christians by pulling out beliefs unique to the JW's that distinguish them from the early Bible Students, but they are left flailing since all you need to do is fall back on the same logic: If Jesus still accepted the Bible Students as the true religion as they were in 1919, why would he not accept them today? Emphasize this point: "After all, the Bible Students back then and today believe in all the same main doctrines the JW's do, and it seems that is all that really matters in Jesus' eyes". You can also use the same logic for comparing the JW's beliefs of the 1920's (still called BS's then), 30's 40's, 50's etc with JW's beliefs today....there are some differences in beliefs and interpretations yet Jesus still accepted them all; the JW simply cannot deny this! So explain that all you are doing is going back a bit further to the bible students...and then applying the same logic to conclude that the Bible Students groups today are also acceptable to God and Jehovah. They really struggle with this inescapable logic.
Try it for yourself. It's a beautifully simple and devastatingly logical way to seriously undermine a JW's belief that only his organisation alone is the one true religion. You will have planted a real seed of doubt.
 
Abandoned
Abandoned 8 years ago

Good job. I hope you continue to have success as you help people escape this destructive cult.
 
inkling
inkling 8 years ago

Now, ask the JW why, if CT Russell and the early Bible Students were definitely anointed, which the Watchtower asserts, and their beliefs were good enough for Jesus to uniquely select them back in 1919, why would they not be good enough for Jesus today?
Well, you could always claim Jesus saw them as a good "fixer-upper" religion, and the group who became the current "Bible Students" were too stubborn to be "fixed".

[inkling]
 
yesidid
yesidid 8 years ago

Good thinking Must Obey.
Though it is possible that a knowledgable Witness would not reply:



Pastor Russell & the Bible Students
Only because Russell was dead then, he died in 1916.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

Very good logic, I will try it out.
Destroy any JW's faith
However, most JW's faith will not be destroyed, as faith is not based on truth, or logic, or intellectual reasoning. People like to take the easy route and believe what they want to believe. To be confronted that the JWs faith may be wrong will usually lead to cognitive dissonance and the mind will bury it like all the other evidence that proves the Watchtower faith to be unfounded.
 
Must obey!
Must obey! 8 years ago

The majority of JW's know about CT Russell etc. The Watchtower still boasts about him as the founder of what turned out to be JWs, but what most JW's fail to appreciate is that Judge Rutherford's despicable classification of the dissenting Bible Students as the "evil slave" class was in many ways a rejection of Russell & what he stood for!
Agreed JWfacts. The word "Destroy" in the heading is a bit of puffery really, to get the readers attention. To "undermine" or "weaken" their faith in the organisation with my piece of simple logic is a more realistic expectation. When it comes to criticism of their precious organisation most JW's are immune to logic.
 
freeme
freeme 8 years ago

i dont believe there is a perfect way to show a JW the stupidity of the believe system.
yours is nice, but it needs a JW who actually KNOWS what happened more than 5 years ago. i made the experience that at least 80% of all JWs dont know shit about their religions history. they're repeating some crap in the book study to answer questions, but they dont LEARN it. the 1918/1919 date is unknown for many many JWs and most would say it were the witnesses who were selected then, not bible students.
PLUS:
the discrepancy between the back then bible students and todays witnesses is that the witnesses STAYED with gods faithful and discreet slave while the ppl who call themselves bible students today are a sect who didnt want the changes god did to his organization. the modern bible students are the descendants of *apostates* from that time. if new light comes from the governing body today and someone chooses not to accept it hes apostate. and if he chooses to create a new religion by staying with the old light hes even worse! the "new light" doctrine can twist things this way and every JW will accept it. not a big deal in my opinion.
 
alanv
alanv 8 years ago

Firstly as has already been stated Charles Russell was not around in 1919, ao immediately you would be told to get your facts right.Secondly they will say that God helps his true servants understand his will gradually so although a lot of things were wrong in 1919 the true servants were humble enough to accept change as it was revealed to them. Therefore it is only Jehovah's witnesses that have the truth as only they have the truth based on the bible and not on traditions of men. There are many ways to show the witnesses are being misled but these 5 steps are not the way to go.
 
Must obey!
Must obey! 8 years ago

Ah come on Alan I'm talking about the bible students from 1879 right through to 1919, which group Russell started & lead right until 1916. U honestly think a JW would quibble that I'm totally wrong cause Russell died in 1916, not 1919. How many JW's even know the year he died!
If it's completely "not the way to go" then please tell me what is? And tell me why has this seriously worked for me in the past and caused a number of JW's to back off from trying to get me to return to the org.
Yes, they will try and throw the "new light" thing at you, but they will go away pondering about it as long as you emphasize that all that must have mattered to Jesus is that they had the main doctrines correct, as still taught by JW's, because otherwise Jesus would not have selected the Bible Students in the first place. Remind them that they still celebrated Christmas, birthdays, used the cross, etc, but it didn't matter that much cause they had the main things right! So same with the Bible Students today. When they hear you say that they nod their head in understanding.
It's just a suggestion that's worked for me. I didn't say it was a silver bullet.
Can't believe how stingy with their comments some posters are.
 
MissingLink
MissingLink 8 years ago

Maybe not a silver bullet, but I doubt there is one. I think it takes gradual steps to get out. And this one point can be brought up, discusses for a few minutes, and then drop it. Planting doubts is the key.
 
justhuman
justhuman 8 years ago

GREAT POST....ABSOLUTELY GREAT...SUPERB...
I will use it very soon with a discussion I will have with the Elders, when they will ask me to see them in case I would like to reinstated to the WT.
So I will tell them yes I will, but before that can you answer me to this question?
 
alanv
alanv 8 years ago

'I can only think 'Must Obey' that you must have been talking with dubs who already have doubts. Any dub worth his salt will pick up the smallest mistake and use it against you. As an example I gave my 29 year old son all sorts of reasons to question the teachings and you no what he picked up on. I told him the wrong year the internet was available for general use. This is the way they think. If they know something you say is wrong they will simply dismiss all the accurate imfo. you have given them.
So if you were to talk with an elder or anyone else who is strong for there faith you would be shot down in flames. They would say that although much of what Russell taught was right Jehovah's spirit gradually revealled the whole truth over the next few decades. For the reason that it was too much too take in all at once.The food at the proper time will be quoted at you. If you don't accept everything the channel feeds you then you are going against the org. which means against God.
'Just human' has got it right. You plant seeds of doubt gradually just like the society do. That is what works. Your points are ok but hardly life changing
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Sorry, but the Watchtower already has answers that put this type of reasoning out of comission.
 The Watchtower stresses not just that the 'Bible Students' in general where selected by God in 1918/1919, but that the administration of J.F. Rutherford and those that followed where the ones that where chosen. Those who did not follow the directino of Rutherford and broke off into other BIble Student movements where the 'evil slave'. If a group of people left the Rutherford run Bible Students between 1918-1920's they would still be considered apostate and 'evil slave' because they did not stick faithfully to "Jehovah's Organization" and those in charge. The books and magazines have been very clear on this.
 This reasoning is riding on a loophole that isn't there.
 
sir82
sir82 8 years ago

Won't work.
Counterargument (long version):
"Yes of course the understanding of the Bible Students is wrong, based on what we now know. But at the time, they were the group that was closest to teaching the truth. Jesus selected them, not so much because they were completely 100% right on every facet of doctrine, but because they had the right heart condition and wanted to know the truth. They were the group doing the best job at that time of upholding Jehovah's sovereignty.
In the years since 1919, the light has gotten brighter, and the organization has kept up with Jehovah's celestial chariot by refining it's doctrinal viewpoints. Those Russellite groups you refer to are still stuck in the past - why, they still study Russell's books, written over 100 years ago!"
Counterargument (short version):
"New light"
 
dust
dust 8 years ago

sir82:
Counterargument (long version):
"Yes of course the understanding of the Bible Students is wrong, based on what we now know. But at the time, they were the group that was closest to teaching the truth. Jesus selected them, not so much because they were completely 100% right on every facet of doctrine, but because they had the right heart condition and wanted to know the truth.
A counter-counterargument could be: If a JW of today wants to know the truth, does lots of research, comes to believe something that the WTS will teach only in 20 years, and tells other truth-seeking JWs about his/her findings, how will the organisation respond to this truth-seeking heart condition?
 Answer: This JW should be humble and wait on Jehovah.
 But wouldn't this simply mean, regarding 1919, that what matters is not to have the right knowledge but to have the right kind of ignorance at the right moment? Don't know too much too soon? Is that truth-seeking?
 The JW could here respond that this isn't about amount of truth-seeking heart conditions afterall, it is about being obedient to Jehovah's organisation. OK, then, when there are so many organisations with obedient members (e.g. the Bible students of today, otherwise they wouldn't have made it to 2008): How do we know that THIS is Jehovah's organisation? Well, because in 1919...
 
Must obey!
Must obey! 8 years ago

Yes this does work best with those who already have some doubts, but it can cause doubts for those who aren't already doubting. And yes, its a matter of planting seeds. Its not a case of saying this reasoning "won't work" or it "definitely will". It can just be a powerful way of opening the door to their thinking, in my experience, and cause them to at least back off in being so smugly self-righteous about the org.
If the JW quibbles about 'new light' and the organisation of today having things more accurate than the bible students of 1919, then bring out how the Society has changed a lot since, say, the 1940's, for example, smoking was allowed back then and disfellowshipping was way more lenient and their was no blood policy and what were divorceable sex acts were different, etc. Then ask the JW "Was it Jehovah's organisation back in the 1940's"? Of course they will say yes. So all you have to do is ask them to apply the same perspective today and allow for the possibility that perhaps Jehovah is not very concerned about all these relatively minor errors so long as any group has got the main doctrines right? The JW may feel that only they have got the main doctrines right, but when they learn that there are still thousands of Bible Students who still believe JW's main doctrines, they often pause and think.....
If they want to hark on about Rutherford's reasons for branding the fallen away Bible Students as "evil slaves" then that leaves prime opportunity for you to analyse Rutherford's reasons and ask how could it be that tens of thousands of Bible Students, who the Society says were all anointed in 1919, suddenly turn from being the only approved Christians on planet earth into "evil slaves" in 15 short years or so. A reasonable minded JW (which most of my relatives and friends have been, thank goodness) can see this can seem rather unreasonable. Point out that if Russell had lived for a few more years and Rutherford had taken control, then Russell would undoubtedly have been one who would have left along with all the other tens of thousands of Bible Students? If the JW doesn't agree with this hypothetical proposition, then pull out some quotes of Russells was opposed to highly centralised control and the entire concept of "organisation", so he would have been opposed to Rutherford's new strict control and increasing ruthlessness. If you produce the exact quotes of Russell on this to make it clear that Russell would have been disturbed at the new direction Rutherford was taking.
If all else fails then pull out this trump card: If C T Russell was alive today he would be summarily disfellowshipped for apostasy! This point can really hit home with a JW who is already experiencing some doubts. At least in my experience.
Just a suggestion anyway. In my experience it is a waste of time trying to argue with JW's over their doctrines as a way of causing doubts...it is better to focus on the organisation and help them get a more balanced, objective perspective of it. This is one approach to do that.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

If they want to hark on about Rutherford's reasons for branding the fallen away Bible Students as "evil slaves" then that leaves prime opportunity for you to analyse Rutherford's reasons and ask how could it be that tens of thousands of Bible Students, who the Society says were all anointed in 1919, suddenly turn from being the only approved Christians on planet earth into "evil slaves" in 15 short years or so. A reasonable minded JW (which most of my relatives and friends have been, thank goodness) can see this can seem rather unreasonable. Point out that if Russell had lived for a few more years and Rutherford had taken control, then Russell would undoubtedly have been one who would have left along with all the other tens of thousands of Bible Students? If the JW doesn't agree with this hypothetical proposition, then pull out some quotes of Russells was opposed to highly centralised control and the entire concept of "organisation", so he would have been opposed to Rutherford's new strict control and increasing ruthlessness. If you produce the exact quotes of Russell on this to make it clear that Russell would have been disturbed at the new direction Rutherford was taking.
The Watchtower teaches that the "evil slave" was allready at work before 1918, but that in that year they finally where designated as such. Anybody that would have left the Watchtower as left by Rutherford (and yes there where many) would still have been put in the catagory of evil slave.
In the context of Watchtower thinking the membership is never as important as the leadership. I think this is what you are forgetting. Just like Ray Franz points out in one of his books (can't remember which one) whenever the JW membership hears "Faithful and Discreet Slave" they do not think of all the anointed people on the earth (what's left of the 144,000). Instead they think of the magazines and books that come from the authority in Brooklyn. While thinking of it in terms of the remnant 144,000 is more accurate when it comes to their theolgoy, it is what it means in terms of authority that the adverage JW really understands.
They simply don't view all those people as being collectivly selected. The Watchtower has had it's cake and eaten it too with this concept for quite a while. I certainly don't think showing it to a JW is part of 5 easy steps that can "destroy their faith"
 
Vinny
Vinny 8 years ago

Boring.
 
heathen
heathen 8 years ago

I could imagine some dogma such as quoting the 10 virgin scripture where the virgins ran out of oil , I don't know that evil slave would fit in any sense because the only org. that seems to try and beat it's slaves is the WTBTS.Of course it's not a literal beating just a matter of semantics . They do appear to have a paradox going in regard to actually saying it's "the truth" and believing they are still refining scripture to attain accurate knowledge.
 
Must obey!
Must obey! 8 years ago

You're not grasping the logic. As I've said, it is quite easy to show that C T Russell must have been an "evil slave" then if those slaves were already in operation while he was still alive because there are many quotes where Russell was ideologically opposed to most things Rutherford changed in the organisation. To think that Russell could have been an evil slave is anathema to every JW, and the point can have a powerful effect on their thinking.
No it won't work with every JW Drewsagan but it will work with some because it certainly has worked on some JW's I've used it on. After reasoning with one of my friends on all this he went away and did some research on the internet about the history of the organisatioin and is now inactive.
I've said enough on the subject. Most posters seem to want to nitpick and resist it. Oh well, if you never try it on JW's then that is your opportunity lost.
 

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Destroy any JW's faith that they are the only true religion in 5 easy steps
by Must obey! 8 years ago 29 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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BluesBrother
BluesBrother 8 years ago

I do not think it would work with the dubs that I know, or me in the old days.
Yes they know that the "Bible Students" are still in existence, they are outside the "light of trutht and "knash their teeth" (although the extent of their activity may not be appreciated)
I would have said that the B.Students were indeed the chosen at the time but did not keep up with "Gods progressive Organization" In fact I used to give a talk based on that very theme, cribbed from the elders Ministry School. Just as the Jews were Gods people at one time but stuck to Judaism rather than progresss on with the revealed truth of Christianity..and early Christians had to move on and accept Gentiles or be left behind out of Gods favour....you get the idea
So Bible Students should have stuck with the WT Society and accepted the progressiverevelation of new truths..Thats why they are not Gods people today....
 
Amber Rose
Amber Rose 8 years ago

If Must Obey says this method worked for him, I believe him. Good for him! However, I can say that this wouldn't have worked on me. I wold have reasoned, like a previous poster stated that Jesus saw the Bible Students as a "fixer upper" religion and the rest of them didn't want to go throught the pain of "purification". I actually used to picture Jesus in heaven checking his calander and realizing it was time for him to pick a religion. Gazing down on the earth, stroking his chin, muttering to himself "Slim pickin's, slim pickin's...I guess I'll go with this one." Secondly, I would have scoffed at the statement that there are still thousands of Bible Students. C'mon man, where's your proof! would have been my reply. But keep using it if it works for you.
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 8 years ago


God helps his true servants understand his will gradually
...perhaps then "his" organization will catch up with the rest of us someday...
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 8 years ago

Personally, I feel this is a good approach - to at least getting JWs to think. I don't think that they will immediately drop their religion like a rock (or hot potato), but it will get them to thinking.
For those who bring up the 'objection' that JWs might use - saying that God has removed his 'blessing' from the original Bible Students... good. That means that if he can take away his 'blessing' from one religion that he has given it to - then he can do it again. With the Watchtower organization. Perhaps he has done it already... since there are so many scandals being uncovered within it.
Regards,
Jim TX
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

No it won't work with every JW Drewsagan but it will work with some because it certainly has worked on some JW's I've used it on. After reasoning with one of my friends on all this he went away and did some research on the internet about the history of the organisatioin and is now inactive.
I don't doubt that you're reasoning worked per se, I just highly doubt that it worked based on its own interior logic. When an individual leaves a group like the JWs they are in a place where they are questioning their own commitment to the group. The more a person has questioned and thought about their own commitments will have an effect upon the way they respond to challenges about their beliefs. Personal experience in the group is another way that people are worn down and become more open to an examination of the group.
 Any success you may have had with this reasoning is limited to all of the other factors that influenced that person. Saying that there is an "easy 5 step" process is to ignore all of these other uncontrollable forces.
 No matter how much a JW denies it, most of their faith in the Watchtower is built upon emotions. They argue all the time that what they are doing is completely logicial, but their actions show they are making decisions on a wide variety of emtions including pride, fear, hope and more. Because their emotions are involved, rational thought will only ever work if the person has already set such emtions aside.
 
sspo
sspo 8 years ago

Good reasoning.
Die hard witnesses don't have the ability to think and reason and no matter how hard you try
it will not shake them. Tried many ways to reason with some, it goes in one ear and comes out the other.
They have the "truth" and that's all that matters.
Thanks for those points
 
Cindi_67
Cindi_67 8 years ago

If the JW quibbles about 'new light' and the organisation of today having things more accurate than the bible students of 1919, then bring out how the Society has changed a lot since, say, the 1940's, for example, smoking was allowed back then and disfellowshipping was way more lenient and their was no blood policy and what were divorceable sex acts were different, etc. Then ask the JW "Was it Jehovah's organisation back in the 1940's"? Of course they will say yes. So all you have to do is ask them to apply the same perspective today and allow for the possibility that perhaps Jehovah is not very concerned about all these relatively minor errors so long as any group has got the main doctrines right? The JW may feel that only they have got the main doctrines right, but when they learn that there are still thousands of Bible Students who still believe JW's main doctrines, they often pause and think.....
I agree with you there. JW's have gotten so interested in the small things, in telling you what is "appropriate" in matters of personal decision that they make you feel that if you don't follow those "suggestions" then you must be "spiritually weak". Their focus is in things that should not be a priority in considering the extent of someone's spirituality.

As I've said, it is quite easy to show that C T Russell must have been an "evil slave" then if those slaves were already in operation while he was still alive because there are many quotes where Russell was ideologically opposed to most things Rutherford changed in the organisation. To think that Russell could have been an evil slave is anathema to every JW, and the point can have a powerful effect on their thinking.
This other point you bring out is good also.
Don't get offended by others post contradicting your approach, actually it is good because you are experiencing what you may encounter with other JW's if you were to use this one all the time. It gives you practice to try convince them using other approaches.
 
ldrnomo
ldrnomo 8 years ago

The one problem I see in this is: Jw's today are so dumbed down that many under the age of 40 can't even answer a Bible question unless the answer is written in a paragragh by the borg somewhere.
 
heathen
heathen 8 years ago

I think jim_tx had a point , the tree not bearing fruit is cut down .They've been really stale in numbers for some time so maybe that's what it's about .The web is totally exposing them for the fraud they are ,they do seem to feel very confident that since they are the only ones that actually use the name jehovah that they are the chosen ones that are a people for the name as mentioned in the old testament but jesus did say he could pick and chose , he finds a slave and appoints him over the domestics but then he states he can throw him out with the hypocrites if found abusing power.
 
freetosee
freetosee 8 years ago

I have used that reasoning once and was told the BS dont operate internationally and dont have as much increase. They are not fulfilling matt 24:14.
Does anyone have the url to their website? Cant find the one I saved somewhere...
I was shocked when I lerned that there is such a group holding on to the early teachings.
 

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Topic Summary
try this on the next jw you meet:.
1. ask the jw what religious group jesus selected in 1919 to be his faithful and discreet slave organisation?
the jw will answer: "pastor russell & the bible students"good!!.



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The Stand Fast Bible Students & Elijah Voice Society request!
by Atlantis 3 years ago 2 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower bible
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Atlantis
Atlantis 3 years ago

Stand Fast Bible Students & Elijah Voice Society request! . Atlantis, I was in the organization for over 40 years and I never heard of the Stand Fast Bible Students or the Elijah Voice Society. Would you have anything on these two groups? . Reply: Thanks for writing! I do have a file you might want with some issues of the Old Corn Gems in it that the Stand Fast Bible Students published, and there are some documents in the file from The Elijah Voice Society. . The Elijah Voice Society was actually an offshoot from the Stand Fast group according to the description below. . Inside the file if you look for the (Red Book-marks) you will also find a booklet marked (Never Before Published by Menta Sturgeon from The Final Truth-Message Society) . Here is a little info for others who might be interested. . The Stand Fast Bible Students ­Association The Stand Fasters get their name from their determination to “stand fast on war principles that our dear Pastor Russell announced.” Charles E. Heard of Vancouver and many others felt that Rutherford’s recommendation in 1918 to buy war bonds was cowardice and a sacrilegious perversion of the harvest work. Feeling that Christians should not support the military in any way, including the buying of Liberty Bonds or involvement in non-combatant service, the Stand Fast Bible Students Association was organized on December 1, 1918, in Portland, Oregon. It published Old Corn Gems and organized conventions throughout the United States. The Stand Fasters accepted the seventh volume and were quite successful, especially among those who did not accept what they saw as compromises over the war issue. They felt that the harvest was over, organizations were relatively unimportant, and they were organized simply to help each other learn about Pastor Russell’s teachings. Their opposition to public witness was the main reason they were one of the first groups to disintegrate. From the original twelve hundred adherents in 1919 in the northwest and near Wisconsin, this movement eventually disappeared. The Elijah Voice Society The Stand Fast was not without its schisms. In 1923 John A. Herdersen and C. D. McCray along with nearly 300 from the Stand Fast Bible Students organized the Elijah Voice Society to engage in an ambitious re­gathering and witness work. They published the Elijah Voice Monthly and numerous tracts, becoming one of the most prominent “seventh volume” groups. They felt they were “called to smite Babylon.” Long before Jehovah’s Witnesses they refused to salute the flag, buy liberty bonds, or contribute to the Red Cross. This group eventually disappeared. . Scroll down here: http://www.biblestudents.net/history/daughters_tower.htm . This file contains Old Corn Gems issues 3,4,5,and 6. A booklet by Menta Sturgeon, photos, convention pictures, and files from The Elijah Voice Society. . Click the link in the blue box by the blue arrow. . http://www.sendspace.com/file/ma5sdc . Click the link below and when the next page appears click on SLOW DOWNLOAD. . http://www.fileswap.com/dl/WC8uSxkp1n/ . Atlantis
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Any of the surviving Bible Students groups are an interesting stop as you leave the Wt. and consider your new options in life. I found the groups very friendly. Whether you stay with some type of religious life or move on to agnosticism or atheist or _______ other meeting with the Bible Students fills in so many gaps and false history we learned while in the Wt..
 
J. Hofer
J. Hofer 3 years ago

smithmandy1, is MENTALLY DESEASED addressed to the bible student/jw movement or to yourself? either way, you're probably right.
 

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The Russelites explanation and documentation of what happened when Rutherford took over the WT by force after Russel died.....
by EndofMysteries 2 years ago 15 Replies latest 9 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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EndofMysteries
EndofMysteries 2 years ago

I think this is good information and nicely presented for those who want to know the full story on what happened since the WT org paints a very different picture.
Copied from http://www.pastor-russell.com/legacy/will_.html

In 1884 Charles Taze Russell founded the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society for the purpose of printing Bible, tracts, and teaching aids. But within only a few weeks of his death in October, 1916 there began a significant schism which ultimately resulted in nearly seventy-five percent of Bible Students ceasing to fellowship with the Watchtower Society by the end of 1928. Why? On this page you can download actual scans of the original documents distributed among the Bible Students beginning in January, 1917. Most of these documents have been hidden by the hierarchy of Jehovah's Witnesses until now. By the end of 1928 more Bible Students had left than stayed, after which Joseph Rutherford formed the Jehovah's Witnesses, but continued to claim that Pastor Charles Taze Russell was their founder, not because it was true, but because of his fame and reputation. A simple comparison of the views, practices, and doctrines of these two men will show their claim to be a misrepresentation of truth.
 Here is a brief overview of the facts: It all began when Joseph Rutherford removed four members of the Watch Tower Society Board of Directors under a legal technicality that equally applied to himself, and then authorized the writing and publication of the book "The Finished Mystery" contrary to Pastor Russell's Will, the Society's official Charter, and without approval of the Board, and then falsely advertising the book to the public as the "posthumous work of Pastor Russell". As this issue developed, Rutherford began to forcibly and dogmatically alter the existing doctrinal views, organizational structure, and even denied the inclusive spirit of love for all Christians in or outside of any denomination practiced and preached by Pastor Russell. What had once been a non-judgmental and open association of Christians seeking and searching for Bible truth had quickly turned into an organized religion with a supposed exclusive theocratic relationship with God, an organized creed with rules and heavenly judgments, and a central rulership with a body of leaders that supposedly had a direct link to the Apostles. As a result of these things, Bible Students began to realize that not only the truth, but even the spirit of truth they held so dear had been compromised. By the end of 1928 three-fourths had severed their association with Rutherford and the newly changed Watchtower Society. In 1929 an attempt was made to regather those Bible Students who had grown disillusioned by the obvious change in spirit of Christian love and service at the Society. These are the same Bible Students who bring you this website.
 On their site you can see the documents. Just too much work to try to put all the links in here.
Pastor Russell's Will (June 29th, 1907) — Points of note: The Society is to conduct matters according to his wishes following his death; No new publications are to be produced; Each Watchtower issue must be overseen by a Committee of five, whose names appear therein; 'Old Theology Quarterly' tracts should continue to be published.
 Statement of Facts and Points (July, 1917) — Joseph Rutherford presents his reasoning and claims for why the old Board is illegal. Coming Soon!
Letter (July 27th, 1917) — This first letter was printed up and sent to as many Bible Students as possible from the deposed members of the Board of Directors to inform them what had just taken place. 1.09 meg
Harvest Siftings (August 1st, 1917) — This paper was written by Joseph Rutherford and printed by the printers under contract to the Society, then distributed to all Watch Tower readers in violation of Pastor Russell's Will. 3.58 meg
Open Letter to Conventioners (August 4th, 1917) — A quickly mimeographed notice handed out at a Convention in Boston, Massachusetts to clarify that the claims in "Harvest Siftings" were inaccurate. 674 kb
Printed letter (August, 1917) — A printed letter showing correspondence between Frank Cook, colporteur and Pilgrim under Pastor Russell, and a brother Charles Cox, addressing the issue of whether or not "The Finished Mystery" should be accepted by the Lord's people. 496 kb
Resolution Concerning "Harvest Siftings" (August 31st, 1917) — A statement created and issued by the Los Angeles, California Ecclesia (congregation) of Bible Students reproving both sides for the course taken in the differences. 229 kb
Light After Darkness (September 1st, 1917) — A booklet printed by the members of the Board of Directors who were deposed by Rutherford. 6.68 meg
Harvest Siftings II (October 1st, 1917) — A booklet printed by Rutherford, again utilizing the donated funds of the Society, and published in violation of Pastor Russell's Will as a response to "Light After Darkness". 1.40 meg
Harvest Siftings Reviewed (November 1st, 1917) — A booklet written by P.S.L. Johnson, Pastor Russell's closest friend and associate, whom Rutherford and the current leadership of the Society to this very day accuse of being the true instigator of the troubles. 4.83 meg
Facts For Shareholders of the WTB&TS (November 15th, 1917) — Specific details of the illegal activities of Rutherford, including a statement by legal council, in preparation for elections to be held in January, 1918. 4.24 meg
Open Letter to the People of the Lord (November 21st, 1917) — A petition signed by several individuals at the Brooklyn Bethel desiring both sides to come together and resolve their differences. 791 kb
"Harvest Siftings Reviewed" itself reviewed (December 7th, 1917) — A short booklet printed by Jesse Hemery, the administrator of the London Tabernacle, supporting Rutherford, and denouncing Johnson. 1.25 meg
Another Harvest Siftings Reviewed (August 22, 1918) — A second booklet by P.S.L. Johnson presenting more details regarding Rutherford's accusations against him. 3.60 meg
Notes and Comments on "The Finished Mystery" (February 19th, 1919) — A 48-page booklet printed by Bible Students in Australia which points out the many errors and misrepresentations apparent in "The Finished Mystery." This booklet appeared in place of the March, 1919 issue of "The Peoples Paper", the monthly periodical of the Bible Students Tract Society , founded in Australia after the death of Pastor Russell. 5.14 meg
The Golden Age (July 8th, 1931) — Judge Rutherford claims the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" in order to make a final separation from Bible Students who desired to remain faithful to the ministry of Pastor Russell. 808 kb
Witness Bulletin, Vol. 1, No. 1 (October, 1931) — Bible Student response to Judge Rutherford's claiming the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" and final attempt at separating the WTB&TS from Bible Students who desired to remain faithful to the ministry of Pastor Russell. 1.18 meg
The Golden Age (October 14th, 1931) — Official response from the Society to Witness Bulletin No. 1. 707 kb
Witness Bulletin, Vol. 1, No. 2 (January, 1932) — Second paper written by Bible Student representatives in reply to statements made by the Society in "The Golden Age" magazine. 1.39 meg
Witness Bulletin, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Summer, 1932) — Announcement of another reunion Convention of Bible Students, and attempts at regathering all those alienated by Rutherford. 730 kb
Witness Bulletin, Vol. 1, No. 4 (October, 1932) — "The Press Still Pressing On" answers the claims that the WTB&TS (a printing plant) can represent all believers as "God's channel". 736 kb
Witness Bulletin, Vol. 1, No. 5 (July, 1933) — This final printing of the "Witness Bulletin" answers the Society's claim that they are "God's Organization". 1.43 meg
When Pastor Russell Died (1946) — A booklet printed by the Dawn Bible Students Association covering some of the basic details of the division between Bible Students faithful to Pastor Russell's Will and the WTB&TS during the period from 1917 through to the mid-'40s. 3.56 meg
Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose ( ©1959 Watchtower Bible & Tract Society ) — This book, printed by the Society in 1959, offers their first official "history" of Pastor Russell, and the early days of the Bible Student movement and the creation of "Jehovah's Witnesses". Posted are the relevant section related to the events of 1917. Compare the claims made in this book with the documents provided on this webpage. 1.69 meg
Pastor Russell Not the Founder of Jehovah's Witnesses (1960's) — A very short paper published by Bible Students in the 1960's to clear-up the false impression that the current doctrines and administration of the WTB&TS and Jehovah's Witnesses have any connection with Pastor Russell and Bible Students. HTML only - (PDF Coming Soon!)
1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses ( ©1975 Watchtower Bible & Tract Society ) — The Society's second "official" history, continues to present P.S.L Johnson as the key trouble maker, and continues to present a somewhat narrow view of what truly transpired. 1.53 meg
Present Truth and Herald of Christ's Epiphany (October, 1975) — This monthly magazine, printed by friends and associates of P.S.L. Johnson and his teachings, presented in this issue an answer to the claims appearing in the 1975 Yearbook. 941 kb
Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom ( ©1993 Watchtower Bible & Tract Society ) — This is the WTB&TS's most recent "official" history. Although they appear to take a different turn from their other two histories a brilliant light continues to shine on Rutherford, while Johnson and others are falsely portrayed as the enemies of God and the Truth. We only include the pertinent sections relating to the events of 1917. 2.47 meg
 
EdenOne
EdenOne 2 years ago

marked
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

Thanks for all that Endof, it makes it plain that Rutherford was one hell of a chancer, and adept at twisting what the Law actually said.
Just the kind of guy Jesus would pick to lead his chosen few in 1919. Not.
 +1 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 2 years ago

marked
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 years ago

Rutherford went from a possible member of a committee, to the Prez!! It all went South once Rutherford took over. For any doubters and lurkers, just remember, Rutherford is the guy who built a multi-million dollar mansion for himself. Sure, he said it was for the ancient worthies. I guess he was going to chill with King David... The funny thing is that Rutherford not only built a multi-million dollar mansion, while JW volunteers lived in squalor, but he built it in California!!!
Was New York, the city where GOD decided to base the World Headquarters of the "TRUTH", not good enough?! Why couldn't Rutherford by an already existing home in Columbia Heights and renovate it? Hmmmm...

EOM, thanks! Marked!!
 
KateWild
KateWild 2 years ago

Hey DD looks like you have inspired ones. Well done for this EM-Kate xx
 
dropoffyourkeylee
dropoffyourkeylee 2 years ago

I am glad to see this archival material readily available at the site referenced in the OP. My first steps out were a deep reading of much of this same information. I purchased a number of books which at the time were republished by a Bible Student group in Chicago.
I am a bit curious though about this site www.pastor-russell.com . It seems odd they state they were the first to make this material available online in 1997. Well, maybe online, but I had copies of the same things on my shelf back in the '80's. Then they caution against downloading the material anywhere else, as they are the only official source. But much of the material was not copyrighted or the copyright has expired, so there is no official source. They have watermarked all their downloads, the purpose of which is unclear. They even have the audacity to put up scans of the 1975 yearbook and the 1993 JW history book, which <are> under copyright by the WT society, and they put their own watermark on that too.
I appreciated what they have done, but something about it doesn't smell right.
 
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri a year ago
Mark
 
Awake at last
Awake at last a year ago
My grandmother was interested in the witnesses or bible students as they were known in the 1920's. She was never baptised but left disgruntled over something around the late 20's. My mother never fully understood why, she was only a child then. Maybe all this information may be the key as to what happened and why my grandmother left. I will read it with interest when I get some time.
 +1 / -0
Magnum
Magnum a year ago
Thanks. Interesting. Marking to examine later and download all materials.
 
TJ Brother
TJ Brother 9 months ago
according to the Watchtower (ws15 15/3 pp. 17-23, the evil slave, it is no longer composed by those who rebelled in 1914/1918.
So, what will happen to the remaining of those students of the bible? They will be reinstated? GB will ask excuses for them? How is the reproach cast on them all these years?
* ps .: Sorry errors, I do not speak English.
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 9 months ago

I didnt realize that TJBrother...
so who is the evil slave now?
Thank you EndofMysteries for this wealth of info.
marking for later
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 9 months ago
There is and never was an evil slave according to thier new doctrine. This way they think people can't associate them as the evil slave. I'm sure in the near future they will also say thier is no man of lawlessness so they can't be labeled that either.
 
TJ Brother
TJ Brother 9 months ago
.according to the magazine:
Previous Explanation: The wicked, lazy servant is anointed at the time of 1914 who refused to participate in the preaching work.
Adjusted explanation: Jesus was not predicting that a group of his anointed followers would form a evil slave class. Instead, he was warning his followers about what would happen if they think and act in a way that led him to view them as bad and lazy.
the point is that there is no turning back and apologize those people who were ostracized, and give them what rightfully was his.
 
millie210
millie210 9 months ago
Thanks CrazyGuy and TJ!
 
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 9 months ago

Some of this information is new to me. I remember most of it from crisis of conscience. So interesting...I remember when I was very young my best friend (whose father was a big shot) told me about the Russelites, how they STILL followed Russell and never went along with his successors after he died. How they met in people's houses to study Russell's old books and how pathetic that was. But after hearing what really happened, who are the real apostates?
It's just like a country with a king who chooses his successor, but someone else jumps in and usurps the throne. The witnesses are the pathetic people who followed the USURPER.
And what a guy he was. ' You have to follow US because you will die otherwise!! We are God's chosen!! All those other religions are EVIL and SATANIC!! Oh, and the prophets of old are going to be resurrected and going to need somewhere luxurious to live, and it's going to happen in 1925, so buy me a mansion for them, and I'll live there until it happens, if you don't mind....'
 

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Intro final
by hillfy333 a day ago 4 Replies latest 16 hours ago   jw experiences
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hillfy333 a day ago

Intro final
My journey from being a born in witness to an agnostic was now complete. In my humble opinion, based on research done by Ehrman and others, it left me feeling satisfied with the thought that belief in the unerring word of God was founded on shaky ground. If we don’t have the original manuscripts, and only possess copies of copies, how could i possibly place full confidence in what our current manuscripts say about Jesus and the early Christians?
So much doctrine has been formulated over words and phrases in the bible, which may or may not have originally existed in the first draft. How much extrapolation occurred decade after decade, generation after generation, as each new batch of Christian convert, read and reread the bible, adding their own understanding, to shape future converts. If we can’t see the original words, then why ascribe divine inspiration on copies of copies, which have already demonstrated under scrutiny having multiple differences from each other.
So as of this writing i find myself in the camp of the agnostic. Is there a God? I simply do not know, but I’m okay with that, I’ve arrived at a point in my life where i do not need all my answers answered.
Since moving to our new home, I’ve had two elders individually call on me several times. One elder is half awake to ttatt, the other a fully indoctrinated follower, who when asked by me whether he thought this is the same organization he and i grew up in? He replied candidly yes. As far as he was concerned it is all about the kingdom, all the changes were just simply window dressing. The other elder is fully aware of the many inconstancies in the organization , he even watched all the ARC hearings, and was dismayed with the proceedings. However he feels the jdubs are the best of a bad bunch, and that some time in the near future Jesus will step in and correct the organization.
I’ve made it clear to both elders i have grave doubts about the bible being infallibly God’s word. I have also made it clear i will not be going back to any meetings. I made it clear i don’t want to associate with the organization, but I’m not disassociating myself either. So far so good.
My wife remains a witness for her family’s sake, but she has not been to a meeting for around eight months now. Gladly she is not showing any signs of missing the meetings or the fellowship. I’m now in the autumn of my life. Many years have been wasted on a false belief, and many decisions regretted because of it. As so many witnesses before me, i have not fully prepared for my retirement, which is only a few years away. But I’ve implemented strategies to at least partially alleviate my retirement concerns. I have wished many times that i had been born to normal parents, with clear objectives about future preparedness, instead of leaving everything in Jehovah’s hands. Thanks for taking the time to read my journey, may all of us continue to deprogram and learn to love ourselves and the precious life we have in common, freed from the cult of fear and repression.
 
 +10 / -0
Half banana
Half banana a day ago

I know how you feel Hillfy. To be a JW is to lead a reckless life without thought of the future.The real beneficiaries of the cult are the leaders, everyone else suffers...it's so delusional.
At the bottom of Christianity is the Bible. If only people realized how they have been seduced into thinking this book is sacred when all along it is just a collection of stories brought together under the umbrella of Roman Catholic authority and held up to the peasants as holy.
I would like to add that there is no such thing as an original Bible. It has been calculated that about 83% of its contents are borrowed from earlier literature, usually pagan or foreign courtly sources. It has little to do with the goat herders of Judah, more a compilation of wishful thinking on their behalf. Before printed literature any text could, and was continuously corrupted by writers with a political agenda.
And we based our lives on it!
If you are interested in the subject, a great little book to read is A Short history of Christianity  by JM Robertson which approaches the subject not from a religious perspective but from the point of view of the contemporary society in the Roman Levant. It is a real eye opener.
But we can't choose our parents...
 
dozy
dozy a day ago
Thanks very much for your series - I've read through all 5 of your posts and it has been a fascinating read - many similarities with my own exit. Very much appreciated and best wishes for the future....
 +3 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 18 hours ago

However he feels the jdubs are the best of a bad bunch, and that some time in the near future Jesus will step in and correct the organization.
I guess that means that the JWs in their present situation only have a "little bit" of leaven (false religious doctrine). Remember the illustration of the glass of clean, clear water? If you add "just a little" drop of poison or manure, would you still drink from it? Is it OK to be "mostly clean"?
What if Jesus chooses to "step in and correct" the Catholics, or Baptists, or etc, etc, of their "little bit" of leaven?
Doc

 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 16 hours ago

HILLFY:
When you questioned those elders and one of them answered that he thought it was the "same" religion he grew up in with only changes in "window dressing"..well..he's full of it.
That would be like me saying that the world hasn't changed since the 1800s.
He is just a typical Witness denying the obvious and engaging in the mental gymnastics that they are famous for. I wonder if he has cognitive dissonance?? How does he keep convincing himself of this?? What happens when reality finally breaks through??
Meanwhile, I'm glad you spoke your mind and are out. I wish you well with your retirement!👍
 +1 / -0

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