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Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.  
Posted: 04 March 2016 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
Here's my post:
 
 My Bishop texted me this morning to see if we could have a chat. I answered we could. He called.
 We made an appointment for Wednesday evening at 7:00 in the Bishop's office (he gave me my choice). He, the Stake President, and our Area Seventy are concerned about my public post, most particularly the part where I stated I believe Joseph Smith was a fraud.
 They wonder if I would consider retracting that statement.
 Since it was the singular reason for my disaffection, rather than mundane things like sin or being offended, I won't be retracting anything. But, we'll have our appointment on Wednesday. 
I searched my list of friends and none are Ward or Stake members. There are a few from my prior Ward in Texas (we're now in Colorado) including my former Bishop who was just called as a counselor in the Stake Presidency.
 
This makes me wonder if the good ol' boys' network is working in my favor!
 
 
Edited to add:
 
I just received a call from the Stake Executive Secretary. My Stake President (who has had several recent surgeries) is ill. My meeting has been postponed a week. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 04 March 2016 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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Kind of creepy. I guess if any FB friends are mormon they could feel "inspired" to report your post somehow. 

   


Posted: 04 March 2016 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
So much for the 11th Article of Faith...
 
This is my revised version:
 
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God and Joseph Smith according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, unless they have the audacity to exercise that privilege in leaving the church, in which case they are evil apostates and we will disown, shun, disavow, disdain and disapprove of them in whatever way we choose. 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 04 March 2016 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
So much for the 11th Article of Faith...
 
This is my revised version:
 
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God and Joseph Smith according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, unless they have the audacity to exercise that privilege in leaving the church, in which case they are evil apostates and we will disown, shun, disavow, disdain and disapprove of them in whatever way we choose. 
 
 To use a dated expression, "Word!"
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 04 March 2016 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
jellybean
Member
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Joined  2011-02-19
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
So much for the 11th Article of Faith...
 
This is my revised version:
 
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God and Joseph Smith according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, unless they have the audacity to exercise that privilege in leaving the church, in which case they are evil apostates and we will disown, shun, disavow, disdain and disapprove of them in whatever way we choose. 
 
 Perfect.


   


Posted: 04 March 2016 05:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
I have an uncle who worked for church security. He said they keep files on anyone who says anything negative about the church. And they have eyes everywhere. So it's not surprising they found your comments online. 

   


Posted: 04 March 2016 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
Moderator
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Joined  2009-07-30
 
  
 
Winyan:
I have an uncle who worked for church security. He said they keep files on anyone who says anything negative about the church. And they have eyes everywhere. So it's not surprising they found your comments online.
 I wonder how many years I have left to add to my Permanent File?
 
 Signature


   


Posted: 04 March 2016 09:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
Long Timer
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Joined  2009-01-11
 
  
 
Elder OldDog:
Winyan:
I have an uncle who worked for church security. He said they keep files on anyone who says anything negative about the church. And they have eyes everywhere. So it's not surprising they found your comments online.
 I wonder how many years I have left to add to my Permanent File?
 
 
 such a cult. i'm so glad i am in a position to care less what they think of me


   


Posted: 05 March 2016 08:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
Here's my post:
 
 My Bishop texted me this morning to see if we could have a chat. I answered we could. He called.
 We made an appointment for Wednesday evening at 7:00 in the Bishop's office (he gave me my choice). He, the Stake President, and our Area Seventy are concerned about my public post, most particularly the part where I stated I believe Joseph Smith was a fraud.
 They wonder if I would consider retracting that statement.
 Since it was the singular reason for my disaffection, rather than mundane things like sin or being offended, I won't be retracting anything. But, we'll have our appointment on Wednesday. 
I searched my list of friends and none are Ward or Stake members. There are a few from my prior Ward in Texas (we're now in Colorado) including my former Bishop who was just called as a counselor in the Stake Presidency.
 
This makes me wonder if the good ol' boys' network is working in my favor! 
 
 Im proud of you


   


Posted: 05 March 2016 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Bruce,
 
Here is my advice (having recently met with my SP and A70):
 
- Control the dialog and be very respectful
 
- Make this about them, JS and the Church; not about you or your FB post
  
- Go into a deep discussion about the general definitions of words like: Fraud, Censorship, Honesty (see church gospel topics definition), Truth, "Aiding and Abetting", "Primary Source Documents", Hearsay)
 
- ask them if they support the U.S. Constitution, specifically the 1st Ammendment Rights. if they answer yes, then ask them: "How can you answer yes, and in good conscience ask me to take down my FB post?"
 
- Tell them that you would be happy to comply with their wishes to take down the FB post if they can show you evidence from primary source church documents that you are incorrect (reminding them of the definition of fraud, aiding and abetting).
 
- If they testify to you, testify back---don't state conjecture, but simply testify of the facts (i.e. I know that Emma wrote this; I know that... state only the primary source church documents.
 
- If you are threatened with a disciplinary council; remind them how serious the potential out come of such a council is---make sure that they understand that a creditable "Council" would require all 12 High council to study each issue and the primary source church documents, objectively, that you have used to reach your conclusions---for them to do otherwise is to mock god, and "god will not be mocked". I would even ask them their opinion if they believe there to be consequences for claimed men of god to errantly strip Eternal Salvation from a person because they were too prideful to even look at the issues and primary source church documents?
 
I could go on, but you get the idea. you will have them spinning and they will not know what hit them.
 
Again - Control the dialog 
 
BTW - Do you know which A70 you will be meeting? 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 05 March 2016 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Bruce,
 
Here is my advice (having recently met with my SP and A70):
 
- Control the dialog and be very respectful
 
- Make this about them, JS and the Church; not about you or your FB post
  
- Go into a deep discussion about the general definitions of words like: Fraud, Censorship, Honesty (see church gospel topics definition), Truth, "Aiding and Abetting", "Primary Source Documents", Hearsay)
 
- ask them if they support the U.S. Constitution, specifically the 1st Ammendment Rights. if they answer yes, then ask them: "How can you answer yes, and in good conscience ask me to take down my FB post?"
 
- Tell them that you would be happy to comply with their wishes to take down the FB post if they can show you evidence from primary source church documents that you are incorrect (reminding them of the definition of fraud, aiding and abetting).
 
- If they testify to you, testify back---don't state conjecture, but simply testify of the facts (i.e. I know that Emma wrote this; I know that... state only the primary source church documents.
 
- If you are threatened with a disciplinary council; remind them how serious the potential out come of such a council is---make sure that they understand that a creditable "Council" would require all 12 High council to study each issue and the primary source church documents, objectively, that you have used to reach your conclusions---for them to do otherwise is to mock god, and "god will not be mocked". I would even ask them their opinion if they believe there to be consequences for claimed men of god to errantly strip Eternal Salvation from a person because they were too prideful to even look at the issues and primary source church documents?
 
I could go on, but you get the idea. you will have them spinning and they will not know what hit them.
 
Again - Control the dialog 
 
BTW - Do you know which A70 you will be meeting? 
 
 I met with my SP and the A-70 last July. The A-70 was Brent J. Hillier, recently called as MP of the Salt Lake East Mission (yes, he's the A-70 for us in Greeley, CO as well as the MP of a Utah mission - busy guy). I've figured there would come a day of reckoning and it seems it is here now.
 
Thanks for your suggestions! It seems we are of the same ilk. I controlled the conversations with them in prior conversations and will continue to do so in future conversations.
 
I also record them!
 
The bottom line for me is that I have no fear of them. They seem to fear me a little.
 
 Maybe they should! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 05 March 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Avatar
John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2008-11-15
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
So much for the 11th Article of Faith...
 
This is my revised version:
 
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God and Joseph Smith according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, unless they have the audacity to exercise that privilege in leaving the church, in which case they are evil apostates and we will disown, shun, disavow, disdain and disapprove of them in whatever way we choose. 
 
 We NEED a "Like" button!  
 Signature
The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 06 March 2016 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
WinstonSmith:
<snip> 
 
<snip>
I also record them!
 
The bottom line for me is that I have no fear of them. They seem to fear me a little.
 
 Maybe they should! 
Do you openly record, or are they unaware?
 
When honest about the true history of the Church, there is a lot to fear, and I understand why Church leaders fear people like you. They are faced with a conundrum of epic proportions, and they cannot win.
 
My experience with Church leadership, since I have made my lack of piety known, has been interesting. Most bishops and SPs are accustom of having passive members in their office who accept "pray, pay and obey" answers. Once Mormon leaders are confronted by people with well thought out questions, arguments and dialog, outside Mormon vocabulary, they freeze up. It is like trying to run MS Windows 10 on an old 486---their processors just are not compatable.
 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 06 March 2016 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
Sr. Member
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Joined  2012-08-22
 
  
 
I have been outed many times through myself and through others. My Bishop is great. I don't think he really wants to have any sort of discussion. He has tried to set up appointments, but i just blow them off by saying NO. The Stake Presidency has also called, i said NO. I just don't feel like having to say my thoughts when all they will do is fall on deaf ears.  So why go through the motions.
 
Enjoy your talk, let them squirm and try to LOVE with Threats.
 
 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 06 March 2016 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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evil_archer
Long Timer
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wesmanlv:
Elder OldDog:
Winyan:
I have an uncle who worked for church security. He said they keep files on anyone who says anything negative about the church. And they have eyes everywhere. So it's not surprising they found your comments online.
 I wonder how many years I have left to add to my Permanent File?
 
 
 such a cult. i'm so glad i am in a position to care less what they think of me
 
 
I feel the same way, plus I resigned years ago, so legally, I'm not a member even if they dragged their feet briefly acknowledging it. There's nothing those in leadership can do about someone who isn't even a member who calls it a cult.
 Signature
I’m proud to be a B.I.T.C.H (Being In Total Control of Herself)


   


Posted: 07 March 2016 05:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Do you openly record, or are they unaware? 
 
My smartphone is placed out in the open. If they ask, I say nothing but I do show them what apps I have open.
 
I will have to admit here that the app I use for recording is not an obvious "recorder", so there is that...
 
It pays to be a geek, even an old one! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 07 March 2016 05:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
Jon Marshall:
I have been outed many times through myself and through others. My Bishop is great. I don't think he really wants to have any sort of discussion. He has tried to set up appointments, but i just blow them off by saying NO. The Stake Presidency has also called, i said NO. I just don't feel like having to say my thoughts when all they will do is fall on deaf ears.  So why go through the motions.
 
Enjoy your talk, let them squirm and try to LOVE with Threats.
 
 
 
I am certainly tempted to tell them, "No." Not out of fear, mind you. It's because the meetings are fruitless and seldom turn out in my favor. But, I get a bit of a perverse pleasure out of watching them squirm. My Bishop, on the phone, just couldn't quit repeating, "But you called Joseph a fraud. Can't you just retract that?" He was just plain and simply incredulous.
 
Oh, well! I'm sorry about his luck! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 07 March 2016 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Hahahaha! 
 
In court, "truth is a defense."  That's what courts are for, proving truths! 
 
I have never heard, "belief is a defense, " like in a case involving charges against JW parents who let a child die by refusing a blood transfusion.   
 
Silly rabbits...  I mean mormons.  
 Signature


   


Posted: 07 March 2016 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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incawhite
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Book of Mormon fraudhttp://youtu.be/T7dFkl7EaHY
Priesthood Fraudhttps://youtu.be/Oq14o3hxsRk
About Stupidityhttps://youtu.be/wvVPdyYeaQU
Hitler’s ranthttps://youtu.be/9o3T112ivzE


   


Posted: 09 March 2016 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 10 March 2016 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
Sr. Member
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Joined  2015-12-08
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 
Did he threaten disciplinary action? I guess every bishop is different, but I'm curious how far something like this will get taken. I haven't dared post anything about my beliefs to FB under my real name. Besides taking offense, DW would be afraid of it leading to excommunication.
 
 Signature
Once mormon, twice shy.


   


Posted: 10 March 2016 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
LostInParadise:
Bruce A Holt:
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 
Did he threaten disciplinary action? I guess every bishop is different, but I'm curious how far something like this will get taken. I haven't dared post anything about my beliefs to FB under my real name. Besides taking offense, DW would be afraid of it leading to excommunication.
 
 
 No, no threats. He, knowing that my life in the church and in leadership positions gives me an understanding of how things go, just nodded. His next step will be to report to the SP.
 
I'm certain this path will lead to excommunication. But I have absolutely no fear of it. Why should I? 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 10 March 2016 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
LostInParadise:
Bruce A Holt:
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 
Did he threaten disciplinary action? I guess every bishop is different, but I'm curious how far something like this will get taken. I haven't dared post anything about my beliefs to FB under my real name. Besides taking offense, DW would be afraid of it leading to excommunication.
 
 
 No, no threats. He, knowing that my life in the church and in leadership positions gives me an understanding of how things go, just nodded. His next step will be to report to the SP.
 
I'm certain this path will lead to excommunication. But I have absolutely no fear of it. Why should I? 
 
 They use excommunication as an attempt to exert fear, guilt and shame on people they can't control. Good for you for not buying into it.


   


Posted: 10 March 2016 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
Avatar
John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-11-15
 
  
 
Winyan:
Bruce A Holt:
LostInParadise:
Bruce A Holt:
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 
Did he threaten disciplinary action? I guess every bishop is different, but I'm curious how far something like this will get taken. I haven't dared post anything about my beliefs to FB under my real name. Besides taking offense, DW would be afraid of it leading to excommunication.
 
 
 No, no threats. He, knowing that my life in the church and in leadership positions gives me an understanding of how things go, just nodded. His next step will be to report to the SP.
 
I'm certain this path will lead to excommunication. But I have absolutely no fear of it. Why should I? 
 
 They use excommunication as an attempt to exert fear, guilt and shame on people they can't control. Good for you for not buying into it.
 
Y'know... If they call you to a Quart of Lurrrrv, you CAN immediately resign beforehand and they can't do anything else to you.  They hate that:  [Ex-] members taking ownership of their lives.  It reduces them down to puny, ineffectual, inconsequential men.
 
They REALLY hate THAT!  
 Signature
The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 10 March 2016 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 

 
 As I've said before, if they decide to excommunicate, that's an action the Church takes. If I resign, that's an action I take.
 
It makes a difference to my TBM wife. That's what I care about. 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 11 March 2016 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
Avatar
John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-11-15
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:

As I've said before, if they decide to excommunicate, that's an action the Church takes. If I resign, that's an action I take.
 
It makes a difference to my TBM wife. That's what I care about. 
 
Valid point.  However, I would ask the question that crops up here rather frequently:  "Did you marry your wife... or the church?"
 
If you're an immoral, drunken, degenerate, FTW ho-dawg, the COJCOLDS is probably for you.  They seem to let quite a few men behave that way.
 
If you're a decent, respectful, loving compassionate human being... You can be all that on your own!!  Why let 15 Old Farts in Salt Lake City dictate to you what to do with your Eternal Soul?
 
Jus' askin'.  
 
 
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 11 March 2016 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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  Why let 15 Old Farts in Salt Lake City dictate to you what to do with your Eternal Soul?
 
 
1) I love and respect my wife. These decisions affect her.
2) I don't belive in any such thing as an eternal soul.
3) Those 15 old farts have no real authority, especially not over me. So, they dictate nothing meaningful to me, only to them.
4) Anything I do is my choice. I have reasons of my own for choosing as I do.
5) You may choose differently if/when you're in my position (or may have done).
 
But thanks fer askin'!  
 
The bottom line for me is that they engender neither respect nor fear in me. If they wish to meet. it just provides another chance to poke at them! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 11 March 2016 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Bruce A Holt:
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 
 Thats god damn right Bruce A Holt.  He is derelict in his duty.  I find pointing out the hypocrisy of judging someone's opinion of Joseph Smith etc while knowingly keeping themselves ignorant of the information that opinion is based on to be  very effective in dealing with these clowns.  I straight up give them a reading assignment and many times they take me up on it becuase I shame them for their hypocrisy and cowardice.
 
Once they read a section from mormonthink etc, the conversation changes.  I ask them to read it and point out anything that is not factual.  I've got a stake presidency member entering his own faith crisis because of this within the past few weeks.
 
We both know some dudes just won't read anything but it's weaksauce and if you like to poke em, then I say keep piling on the shame.  They certainly deserve it. 
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 11 March 2016 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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The next step has been scheduled. I received a call from the Stake Executive Secretary asking to meet with the SP next Wednesday at 7:00pm at his home (he's recovering from surgery).
 
The fun continues. Step by step. 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 11 March 2016 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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I respect your reasons for not resigning. We to haven't gone that final step out of love for certain family members... other than the annoyance of missionaries or other ward members love bombing us now and then it just doesn't matter. The church isn't true so it doesn't matter if they think we belong. However, we don't choose to give them the pleasure of meeting with us for any reason. wink 

   


Posted: 11 March 2016 10:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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jellybean:
I respect your reasons for not resigning. We to haven't gone that final step out of love for certain family members... other than the annoyance of missionaries or other ward members love bombing us now and then it just doesn't matter. The church isn't true so it doesn't matter if they think we belong. However, we don't choose to give them the pleasure of meeting with us for any reason. ;)
 
Uh... YEAH!
 
[See my tagline for further edification.   ] 
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 12 March 2016 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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jellybean:
However, we don't choose to give them the pleasure of meeting with us for any reason. ;)
 
 In my case, the pleasure is perhaps perversely mine.
 
 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 12 March 2016 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Lloyd Dobler:
Bruce A Holt:
My meeting went as anticipated. He pressed me to retract my post. I declined.
 
I did ask if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he's derelict in his duty. 
 
 Thats god damn right Bruce A Holt.  He is derelict in his duty.  I find pointing out the hypocrisy of judging someone's opinion of Joseph Smith etc while knowingly keeping themselves ignorant of the information that opinion is based on to be  very effective in dealing with these clowns.  I straight up give them a reading assignment and many times they take me up on it becuase I shame them for their hypocrisy and cowardice.
 
Once they read a section from mormonthink etc, the conversation changes.  I ask them to read it and point out anything that is not factual.  I've got a stake presidency member entering his own faith crisis because of this within the past few weeks.
 
We both know some dudes just won't read anything but it's weaksauce and if you like to poke em, then I say keep piling on the shame.  They certainly deserve it. 
 
 Bringing truth and light to the earth--one TBM at a time--good stuff!  
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 14 March 2016 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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My Bishop texted to tell me he's reading the essays. Other things he said leads me to believe he still doesn't understand them.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 14 March 2016 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Bruce A Holt:
My Bishop texted to tell me he's reading the essays. Other things he said leads me to believe he still doesn't understand them.
 
 You got him reading.  That kicks ass.  TBMs like him want to say they "know" about the issues when the really don't.  The devil in this case is in the details.  Reading the essays is an investment on his part, however small.  For me, the next step would then be to pick on of the details from one of the essays that is a problem and talk to him specifically about that detail.  You can do that because you now have common ground........because he read it and he knows the details are sourced and therefore REAL and not in some fuzzy round about world of "knowing" about the problems.
 
Agreeing to disagree at that point with these clowns is a whole lot different when they KNOW the problem you are talking about is based on historical reality.  The best part is that you get to be the normal one.  It forces them to own the crazy.
 
Make them own the crazy Bruce A Holt.  It's their precious one true church so they might as well own the whole enchilada.   
 
I know I may be reaching a bit in your situation but I've personally seen this play out time and again.  The last thing these guys want to do is to have a fact based conversation about the book of abraham or JS and his character etc, or about the race and the priesthood essay, lol.  that is an easy one to stick them on. 
 
 
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 14 March 2016 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Take the quotes from the book with you....show them what JS did.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 14 March 2016 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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And I think it's worth mentioning that these guys are duty bound to investigate what your claims are based on.  Hell, I think there is still a paragraph in the bishops handbook on "investigation".  They are derelict in their duty if they judge you in ignorance.  Since they are judges in Israel, lol, they risk blood on their own garments if they judge you without knowing the simple facts of the matter.  
 
I'd keep pressing on them in this regard.  Sure they will still want to ex you because you were not silent in your doubts, but at least you get them to live in a world where the problems are real.
 
These guys reallly don't know that they are living in a totally new world where they will be the last ones to get the f ing memo.  There are couples jumping ship left and right in my area and the bishops have no idea until the couple is like, "hey, um, we are done, don't contact us, later"
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 15 March 2016 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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I applaud your efforts for being so civil.  I have been there and done that so I know how it goes. 
 
Great move to bring up the essays.  I would try to make that the focus of the discussions.  If he bites, I would make the point that the essays are very sugarcoated, don't bring up all the details and do have errors.  I would also ask him why it took 150 years for the Church to tell the members about these things? I suggest you read some reasponses to the essays to get more facts on them:  http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-responses-intro.htm
 
If it was just a one-time post you made, there's a chance that this may just fade away.  FB posts get buried quickly with new material.  However, if you persist in making similar posts, he will likely take action.
 
If a court is called at some point, the 'dream' of being able to openly discuss these issues with 12 men thereby exposing the sordid details of church history to your local leadership won't likely happen.  Despite the SP saying that you will be able to bring up evidence and defend yourself, the reality is that they just might ask you yes or no questions  - did you make this post?  Yes, case closed.  You will likely not be even given an opportunity to bring up and explain any evidence and the opportunity for you to resign will have passed.  It's really up to the whims of the SP.  See here for more info: http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/court-of-love.htm
 
I do think it is admirable to help educate others about the issues - whether it be bishops, SP or above, especailly when you have nothing to gain and perhaps some things to lose.  I guarantee they do not know all the facts if all they know are the essays. 
 
Good luck you and please Return and Report.


   


Posted: 16 March 2016 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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My scheduled visit with my Stake President is this evening.
 
I'll return and report. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 16 March 2016 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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I just received a call from the Stake Executive Secretary. My Stake President (who has had several recent surgeries) is ill. My meeting has been postponed a week.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 17 March 2016 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Bruce, sorry about the delay. It reminds me of getting ready for midterm exams and finding out that one got postponed. Once I'm ready I'm ready and the wait will only invite cognitive decay to set in. Grrr... 

   


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Somebody outed my FB post to my Bishop, SP and A70.  
Posted: 18 March 2016 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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Are the essays they haven't read the ones put out on the church website? Or are you talking about something else? I know a friend got accused by family members for reading "anit-mormon" materials but she was quoting right from the church website and directed them to those essays. Even with it RIGHT THERE on the church's website they still though SHE was the bad one (she hasn't left, just someone with honest questions). 

   


Posted: 18 March 2016 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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jellybean:
Are the essays they haven't read the ones put out on the church website? Or are you talking about something else? I know a friend got accused by family members for reading "anit-mormon" materials but she was quoting right from the church website and directed them to those essays. Even with it RIGHT THERE on the church's website they still though SHE was the bad one (she hasn't left, just someone with honest questions).
 
 This is very normal and proves that mormonsim is a dangerous cult.  A family will throw another family member under the bus--even if it destroys them--rather than even tarnish the name of the church.  It reminds me of how family who were loyal to Hitler acted.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 18 March 2016 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Strong Free & Thankful:
jellybean:
Are the essays they haven't read the ones put out on the church website? Or are you talking about something else? I know a friend got accused by family members for reading "anit-mormon" materials but she was quoting right from the church website and directed them to those essays. Even with it RIGHT THERE on the church's website they still though SHE was the bad one (she hasn't left, just someone with honest questions).
 
 This is very normal and proves that mormonsim is a dangerous cult.  A family will throw another family member under the bus--even if it destroys them--rather than even tarnish the name of the church.  It reminds me of how family who were loyal to Hitler acted.
 
 That's the second time tonight you've caused me to experience the following reaction: 
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Once mormon, twice shy.


   


Posted: 18 March 2016 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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LostInParadise:
Strong Free & Thankful:
jellybean:
Are the essays they haven't read the ones put out on the church website? Or are you talking about something else? I know a friend got accused by family members for reading "anit-mormon" materials but she was quoting right from the church website and directed them to those essays. Even with it RIGHT THERE on the church's website they still though SHE was the bad one (she hasn't left, just someone with honest questions).
 
 This is very normal and proves that mormonsim is a dangerous cult.  A family will throw another family member under the bus--even if it destroys them--rather than even tarnish the name of the church.  It reminds me of how family who were loyal to Hitler acted.
 
 That's the second time tonight you've caused me to experience the following reaction: 
 
 Sorry LostInParadise.  It is what it is.  I guess I have a self-accquired degree in mormonism.  I know about a lot of this as my TBM family have tried very hard to throw me under the bus--only I refused to go.  :-)  Fighting it all by sharing my experience and knowledge--gained through pain--is how I stay sane.  I have learned to keep my anger at arm's length as I can be more effective that way.  Anger and hate can destroy a person--so I take deep breaths and keep posting on PostMo.  Thank god (whoever he is) for Jeff Ricks and PostMormon.org! Tonight I did something scary--posted the Dallin Oaks quote on my FB page saying it reminded me of Hitler.  It will be interesting to see how my TBM family react.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 07:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Strong Free & Thankful:
LostInParadise:
Strong Free & Thankful:
jellybean:
Are the essays they haven't read the ones put out on the church website? Or are you talking about something else? I know a friend got accused by family members for reading "anit-mormon" materials but she was quoting right from the church website and directed them to those essays. Even with it RIGHT THERE on the church's website they still though SHE was the bad one (she hasn't left, just someone with honest questions).
 
 This is very normal and proves that mormonsim is a dangerous cult.  A family will throw another family member under the bus--even if it destroys them--rather than even tarnish the name of the church.  It reminds me of how family who were loyal to Hitler acted.
 
 That's the second time tonight you've caused me to experience the following reaction: 
 
 Sorry LostInParadise.  It is what it is.  I guess I have a self-accquired degree in mormonism.  I know about a lot of this as my TBM family have tried very hard to throw me under the bus--only I refused to go.  :-)  Fighting it all by sharing my experience and knowledge--gained through pain--is how I stay sane.  I have learned to keep my anger at arm's length as I can be more effective that way.  Anger and hate can destroy a person--so I take deep breaths and keep posting on PostMo.  Thank god (whoever he is) for Jeff Ricks and PostMormon.org! Tonight I did something scary--posted the Dallin Oaks quote on my FB page saying it reminded me of Hitler.  It will be interesting to see how my TBM family react.
 
 I agree! And when I say you make me want to puke, i mean it in the best possible way! Lol! In reality it's the morg that makes me want to puke when i read stuff like that.
 
i also posted something on facebook last night. Not nearly as controversial, but it made it clear for the first time that I have some issues with the church. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
 
let us know how it goes! 
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Once mormon, twice shy.


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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jellybean:
Are the essays they haven't read the ones put out on the church website? Or are you talking about something else? I know a friend got accused by family members for reading "anit-mormon" materials but she was quoting right from the church website and directed them to those essays. Even with it RIGHT THERE on the church's website they still though SHE was the bad one (she hasn't left, just someone with honest questions).
 
 Yep, the very ones the church hid for a while among the gospel topics but now have their own dedicated section.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I have told my tbms at work that the Essays are going to be the new version of Church History in a few years and that the stuff we learned will slowly be washed away into dust and only a distant memory of "did I learn something different" or "i swear we learned this instead of that".
 
I said you can alread see it happening with the Church asking people to get rid of the old manuals and get the new ones. I would love to do a side by side and see what wordings and phrases are changed. 
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Posted: 24 March 2016 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]   

   
 
partisan14
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Could this be an indication that it's really dumb to post highly personal information on FB.


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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partisan:
 
Could this be an indication that it's really dumb to post highly personal information on FB.
 
I can't speak for others. I certainly agree there is a ton of "stupid" on FB! Many people share way too much.
 
I can, however, speak to my own case.
 
My intent was to prevent rumor after telling my immediate family (including in-laws) about my unbelief. Because extended family is scatered literally all over the world, I chose FB to head off rumors. "Straight from the horse's mouth", so to speak. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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partisan:
 
Could this be an indication that it's really dumb to post highly personal information on FB.
 
partisan,
 
I don't think this is the issue.  If you have followed Bruce's posts, there is much more to it.
 
To me this is not about posting 'personal information', but rather about, power imbalance, oppression, suppression of thought, suppression of speach and suppression of expression.
 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Jon Marshall:
I have told my tbms at work that the Essays are going to be the new version of Church History in a few years and that the stuff we learned will slowly be washed away into dust and only a distant memory of "did I learn something different" or "i swear we learned this instead of that".
 
I said you can alread see it happening with the Church asking people to get rid of the old manuals and get the new ones. I would love to do a side by side and see what wordings and phrases are changed. 
 This is a great point: we're witnessing history being revised in this day and age! How special! 
 
A while back wesmanlv posted about a collection of LDS materials, a way of keeping the old history from ever disappearing. If a person does have old manuals, it might be good to donate them rather than dispose of them, as per the direction of God's annointed leaders.
 
Wesmanls posted this, a collection of LDS memorabilia: 
 
Ah nuts, I can't get the link to post. It was thread 26192: "UNLV to create a Special Collection of  LDS Texts." There is information on contributing old LDS materials.
 


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 09:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Celestial Wedgie:
Jon Marshall:
I have told my tbms at work that the Essays are going to be the new version of Church History in a few years and that the stuff we learned will slowly be washed away into dust and only a distant memory of "did I learn something different" or "i swear we learned this instead of that".
 
I said you can alread see it happening with the Church asking people to get rid of the old manuals and get the new ones. I would love to do a side by side and see what wordings and phrases are changed. 
 This is a great point: we're witnessing history being revised in this day and age! How special! 
 
A while back wesmanlv posted about a collection of LDS materials, a way of keeping the old history from ever disappearing. If a person does have old manuals, it might be good to donate them rather than dispose of them, as per the direction of God's annointed leaders.
 
Wesmanls posted this, a collection of LDS memorabilia: 
 
Ah nuts, I can't get the link to post. It was thread 26192: "UNLV to create a Special Collection of  LDS Texts." There is information on contributing old LDS materials.
 
 
 Try this: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/26192
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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Winyan:
I have an uncle who worked for church security. He said they keep files on anyone who says anything negative about the church. And they have eyes everywhere. So it's not surprising they found your comments online.
 
With the number of negative online posts happening now, they better increase their staff. They're going to have a lot of filing to do 
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I met with my Stake President tonight  
Posted: 23 March 2016 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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I had my meeting with my Stake President. He told me that he and Elder Hillier (A-70) discussed my FB post and determined it was a statement of apostasy and unless I take it down there will be a High Council Court held in my behalf. I declined. I will be allowed to present my side, if I wish during the court.

So, the next step will be the letter delivered in person that will "invite" me to the court and will set the date and time.

I'm another step closer.
 
By the way, I asked him if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He told me he studies but studies what he wants. I told him Elder Ballard says he needs to study the Essays. He told me he wasn't taking study suggestions from me. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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PhoenixGate
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That would have been my reaction to the situation.  Good luck.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Bruce A Holt:
I had my meeting with my Stake President. He told me that he and Elder Hillier (A-70) discussed my FB post and determined it was a statement of apostasy and unless I take it down there will be a High Council Court held in my behalf. I declined. I will be allowed to present my side, if I wish during the court.

So, the next step will be the letter delivered in person that will "invite" me to the court and will set the date and time.

I'm another step closer.
 
By the way, I asked him if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He told me he studies but studies what he wants. I told him Elder Ballard says he needs to study the Essays. He told me he wasn't taking study suggestions from me. 
 
 What an arrogant jerk!  Do you wish to be excommunicated?  Looks like to me that is what is coming.  Or--you could take the post down--lie low for a little while and then resign?  Your call--but I am sure you know all of this.  You are more in control than they are.  Did Elder Ballard really say he needs to study the essays? 
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Strong Free & Thankful:
 What an arrogant jerk!  Do you wish to be excommunicated?  Looks like to me that is what is coming.  Or--you could take the post down--lie low for a little while and then resign?  Your call--but I am sure you know all of this.  You are more in control than they are.  Did Elder Ballard really say he needs to study the essays? 
 
 
Yes.
 
No.
 
Yes. If you can stand it, see this: https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/archive/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng 
 
It's the top one of three listed. You have two options, watch or download. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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He might just ask you in court if you wrote the post - Yes or No?  You answer yes and he feels there is no further discussion necessary.
 
You won't be able to discuss the essays or anything else with this prick.  So unless your defense is that you didn't write that post, you will be exed and likely not allowed to present any evidence or witnesses on your behalf as he won't deem it necessary to the chrages against you.
 


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Would anyone want to go through this bullshit?!  Just write your letter an say  --  AMFIAG!  And that would be PRICELESS!  No more wasting your time and money and no more mindnumbing mind control! 

   


Posted: 24 March 2016 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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MormonThink:
He might just ask you in court if you wrote the post - Yes or No?  You answer yes and he feels there is no further discussion necessary.
 
You won't be able to discuss the essays or anything else with this prick.  So unless your defense is that you didn't write that post, you will be exed and likely not allowed to present any evidence or witnesses on your behalf as he won't deem it necessary to the chrages against you.
 
 
 He guaranteed me the time I wanted to present a defense. I believe him but time will certainly tell and I have no illusions!
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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maynardg:
Would anyone want to go through this bullshit?!  Just write your letter an say  --  AMFIAG!  And that would be PRICELESS!  No more wasting your time and money and no more mindnumbing mind control!
 
 I have my agenda and reasons (explained elsewhere). It's actually what I want.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Bruce A Holt:
maynardg:
Would anyone want to go through this bullshit?!  Just write your letter an say  --  AMFIAG!  And that would be PRICELESS!  No more wasting your time and money and no more mindnumbing mind control!
 
 I have my agenda and reasons (explained elsewhere). It's actually what I want.
 
 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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tapirrider
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Bruce A Holt:
By the way, I asked him if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He told me he studies but studies what he wants. I told him Elder Ballard says he needs to study the Essays. He told me he wasn't taking study suggestions from me. 
 
Looking forward to updates on how this goes. I'm curious if they charge you with apostasy based on your sources, the essays, while they refuse to read those same essays.


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I have put off meetings with the Bishop and SP for months. I just don't feel like I have anything to explain to them. They are not going to convince me or scare me into submission and if they for one second think they could bring my wife and daughter up, they would be surely mistaken.  
 
Does my wife agree with my stance and feelings? No.  
 
But she also feels that I am not just a TEMPORAL husband, like her family thinks I am.
 
My advice  BH is just do what you feel is right. If they don't want to talk and hear your side, than so be it and move on.  As your SP said, he does not need to take advice from you on how to Study. He's already made his mind up about the Church. 
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Posted: 24 March 2016 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Bruce A Holt:
maynardg:
Would anyone want to go through this bullshit?!  Just write your letter an say  --  AMFIAG!  And that would be PRICELESS!  No more wasting your time and money and no more mindnumbing mind control!
 
 I have my agenda and reasons (explained elsewhere). It's actually what I want.
 
 I'm with you on this. I see myself going out the same way. 
 
I find it interesting that the SP can justify calling Elder Ballard's talk YOUR advice. Every Mormon is a buffet Mormon... 
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Posted: 24 March 2016 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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LostInParadise:
Bruce A Holt:
maynardg:
Would anyone want to go through this bullshit?!  Just write your letter an say  --  AMFIAG!  And that would be PRICELESS!  No more wasting your time and money and no more mindnumbing mind control!
 
 I have my agenda and reasons (explained elsewhere). It's actually what I want.
 
 I'm with you on this. I see myself going out the same way. 
 
I find it interesting that the SP can justify calling Elder Ballard's talk YOUR advice. Every Mormon is a buffet Mormon... 
 
 If you do, you've got a friend here!
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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When I resigned from the cult with my legal letter I viewed it to be me excommunicating them.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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FreeLive:
When I resigned from the cult with my legal letter I viewed it to be me excommunicating them.
 
 Appropriate, I'd say. For you.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 24 March 2016 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Is it excommunication you want? Or just the chance to explain your reasons. 
 
I think I might take my letter of resignation along to the meeting and hand it to them after you've had your say. Instead of giving them the power to excommunicate you.


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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Bruce A Holt:
Strong Free & Thankful:
 What an arrogant jerk!  Do you wish to be excommunicated?  Looks like to me that is what is coming.  Or--you could take the post down--lie low for a little while and then resign?  Your call--but I am sure you know all of this.  You are more in control than they are.  Did Elder Ballard really say he needs to study the essays? 
 
 
Yes.
 
No.
 
Yes. If you can stand it, see this: https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/archive/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng 
 
It's the top one of three listed. You have two options, watch or download. 
I used to think that I'd rather resign than be excommunicated. Kind of the "you can't fire me, I quit!!!" attitude. However, recently I've started to think that forcing them to go to the bother of excommunicating me would have much more impact. I bet that much more cognitive dissonance will be caused when members are having to sit in these "courts" more and more often. If nothing else it forces them to confront the fact that they are members of an organization which is absolutely intolerant of all dissenting opinions.
 
In short: don't make it easy on them by resigning :)
 
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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thNephite:
Bruce A Holt:
Strong Free & Thankful:
 What an arrogant jerk!  Do you wish to be excommunicated?  Looks like to me that is what is coming.  Or--you could take the post down--lie low for a little while and then resign?  Your call--but I am sure you know all of this.  You are more in control than they are.  Did Elder Ballard really say he needs to study the essays? 
 
 
Yes.
 
No.
 
Yes. If you can stand it, see this: https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/archive/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng 
 
It's the top one of three listed. You have two options, watch or download. 
I used to think that I'd rather resign than be excommunicated. Kind of the "you can't fire me, I quit!!!" attitude. However, recently I've started to think that forcing them to go to the bother of excommunicating me would have much more impact. I bet that much more cognitive dissonance will be caused when members are having to sit in these "courts" more and more often. If nothing else it forces them to confront the fact that they are members of an organization which is absolutely intolerant of all dissenting opinions.
 
In short: don't make it easy on them by resigning :)
 
 
†Reminds me of a t-shirt from the 70's:
"They can't fire me... Slaves have to be sold!"
 
†No racist intent intended in the creation of this post.  
 
 
 
 
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 11:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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thNephite:
Bruce A Holt:
Strong Free & Thankful:
 What an arrogant jerk!  Do you wish to be excommunicated?  Looks like to me that is what is coming.  Or--you could take the post down--lie low for a little while and then resign?  Your call--but I am sure you know all of this.  You are more in control than they are.  Did Elder Ballard really say he needs to study the essays? 
 
 
Yes.
 
No.
 
Yes. If you can stand it, see this: https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/archive/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng 
 
It's the top one of three listed. You have two options, watch or download. 
I used to think that I'd rather resign than be excommunicated. Kind of the "you can't fire me, I quit!!!" attitude. However, recently I've started to think that forcing them to go to the bother of excommunicating me would have much more impact. I bet that much more cognitive dissonance will be caused when members are having to sit in these "courts" more and more often. If nothing else it forces them to confront the fact that they are members of an organization which is absolutely intolerant of all dissenting opinions.
 
In short: don't make it easy on them by resigning :)
 
 
 [  ] I have also started thinking the same way! 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
I'm not a stenographer and even less of a typist. Yeah, a programmer/database administrator for 34 years but still can't type in the preferred manner (I obviously CAN type, though!). But I attempted to transcribe a portion of my 30 minute meeting with my Stake President. Here's my poor attempt:
SP: Well, tell ya what I wanna do, Bruce. The last time I met with you, you did most of the talking with {A-70} and then you wrote the letter.
Me: Um hmm.
SP: I've also been on your web site (Editor: FB, obviously) and read your, your blurb there. Basically, the purpose of this meeting, Bishop's already talked to you.
Me: Um hmm.
SP: I don't want to talk about anything other than a specific part of the content.Okay?
Me: Sure.
SP: You are, you are a member.
Me: Um hmm.
SP: You are an endowed member. Covenants that you've made. Whether you want to keep them or not that's, that's up to you but you still are a member. And even in your own writings you clearly state that one of the foundational, um, uh, parts of the Gospel is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon...
Me: Um hmm.
SP: They are principles...
Me: Um-kay.
SP: ...in that, um, for somebody that's a member of the Church to say categorically, and I'm quoting you, that they are not a true prophet and it's not a true book, is a apostate statement. Clearly. Okay? End of story and just like you said at the beginning of your document that as you quoted prophets, these are foundational. Okay? {unintelligible} And if it's true that if Joseph isn't a prophet then there's a lot {unintelligible}. So tonight I'm basically here as your Stake President, and I asked your Bishop to meet with you to let you know that, that the statement that's on the web site is public and is an apostate statement and does cross the line. And I'm going to ask you to remove it and if not then, then I have no recourse than to hold a disciplinary council, which you've had before, and lost your membership years ago, not for the same reason. Um, that's, that's really what this meeting's about, right? I don't need to discuss why you think Joseph is or isn't, okay...
Me: No, but...
SP: I don't want to go there.
Me: But surrounding that statement, all I was doing was, uh, declaring my status at the moment and where I am now. That that doesn't mean that's where I'm going to be...
SP: understand that but...
Me: ...in the future. And, and, uh I think that the problem is, is probably with the word "fraud" but it's not mmmm...I borrowed it. Um, y-you probably read some of the other statements that I put in there where, where, uh, other leaders including Presidents of the Church have actually made a binary proposition that if everything that Joseph said is true, it's the greatest thing to mankind. If it's false, false it's the biggest fraud perpetrated on the human race! And that's the word that they used!
SP: Yes but they're not making that statement. They would categorically say that he is a true prophet.
Me: And they followed it up with that. Yes.
SP: And I would do the same, okay? You have chosen to take the arm of flesh, whether you like that word or not, it is true, in my book, because you will not receive anything from the spirit or from heaven as true. You only are taking what is from documents that men have created that are not scripture and uh, that p-prove J-Joseph Smith's not true. Well, uh, let me assure you that the fact of the matter is that we're facing is that, uh, you have publicly taught that Joseph Smith is not a prophet, because that's the piece that you've concluded and the Book of Mormon's not true and that is apostate {unintelligible}.
Me: But I haven't taught.
SP: Yes you have.
Me: No. I declared a statement of, of, I made a statement declaring my status {background protest by SP} and then subsequent to that I, I said if you wish to learn some of the things that I have learned, you would have to do your own homework, I'm not going to teach it. {background protest by SP "I read that. I read that"} And and I'm not going to teach it and I haven't been teaching it!
SP: Yes you have! You have taught that Joseph Smith is a fraud.
Me: No, I declared that that is my {background interruption by SP} opinion at the time.
SP (continuing from background interruption): That is still your teaching and the answer is that you can't be a member of the Church any longer.
Me: Well, we're kind of haggling on semantics and I disagree.
SP: Well, you can disagree but y-you can't disagree with what I'm going to say. And..and..
Me: Sure. Sure, sure.
SP: So, I am telling you, again, talked to {A-70}, he's in line with me, and it is. So that, that, and, and, now we have a choice to make. You can remove it and not, not put it back up and that you cannot be teaching to others that Joseph is a fraud. That's where we get. And, and or the Book of Mormon is false because you are a member. And to have somebody teach that Joseph Smith is not a prophet and to; that's saying it, that's teaching it, whether you like it or not, it's true; and that the Book of Mormon is, is a false book is apostate statements, and to say that publicly is teaching people that it's not true.
Me: Hmmm, I would still disagree. {interruption attempt} The whole purpose {interruption attempts continue} of that I, I stated clearly in, in, in, in that, uh, post.
SP (talking over me): So Bruce, you have two choices. I'm not changing my stance. {I am interrupting this time}. I've thought it out. I'm not here to argue.
Me: And I can't, honestly, change mine either because my purpose was to inform, uh, people that, rather than have rumor go out, I wanted to have things straight from the horse's mouth, as to where I was at the time. {Me talking over SP} And, and so it's; I wasn't teaching, I was declaring where I stood at the moment.
{Quick back and forth arguing about teaching/not teaching}
Me: I don't give any, I don't give any reasons why I think that, I don't, I don't...
SP: You don't have to. A lot of people accept things a...as is. As, as, as a maestro you could say...
Me: I told them they shouldn't. I told them they shouldn't. They should do their own...
SP: Doesn't matter. You stated a statement of fact from your standpoint.
Me (interrupting): Well, that's fine. I understand your, your standpoint and, and I think you probably now understand mine.
SP: Sure.
Me: I, I, I think it would be disingenuous to take it out because {interruption attempt} it is a, a true statement of where I stood so they were aware, because I do have friends and family that uh; I told my my immediate family by letter, personally, and uh, my in-laws found out through others. Um, but we've been conversing about it a little bit, not much. Um. But there's still large family, large family and so I wanted; and most of the friends that I have are family, the reason I, I used Facebook is because I've got kids scattered from Texas to Alaska and uh, all that and it makes it easier to keep track of everybody.
SP: Yes but you made, you made a point and it is, it is, whether you like it or not it's incorrect, so nonetheless if you're not going to remove and change that {becomes unintelligible but the jist is that the penalty is a disciplinary court}
.
.
.
.
.
{discussion of my past, first excommunication, what got me to where I am now}
.
.
.
{he likes the word "categorically" and said it several times in giving me his testimony and telling me I've erred and will find that out someday}
.
.
{we discuss study. He studies every day. We discussed Elder Ballard. I asked him if he has read the essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He said he won't go there.}
.
.
{we finally get back to business}
SP: You'll get a letter delivered by the Bishop and probably another Brother to schedule {unintelligible because he's talking very softly but refers to a disciplinary court} I'd like you to be there.

So, there you have the core if it.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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Bruce A Holt:
I'm not a stenographer and even less of a typist. Yeah, a programmer/database administrator for 34 years but still can't type in the preferred manner (I obviously CAN type, though!). But I attempted to transcribe a portion of my 30 minute meeting with my Stake President. Here's my poor attempt:
SP: Well, tell ya what I wanna do, Bruce. The last time I met with you, you did most of the talking with {A-70} and then you wrote the letter.
Me: Um hmm.
SP: I've also been on your web site (Editor: FB, obviously) and read your, your blurb there. Basically, the purpose of this meeting, Bishop's already talked to you.
Me: Um hmm.
SP: I don't want to talk about anything other than a specific part of the content.Okay?
Me: Sure.
SP: You are, you are a member.
Me: Um hmm.
SP: You are an endowed member. Covenants that you've made. Whether you want to keep them or not that's, that's up to you but you still are a member. And even in your own writings you clearly state that one of the foundational, um, uh, parts of the Gospel is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon...
Me: Um hmm.
SP: They are principles...
Me: Um-kay.
SP: ...in that, um, for somebody that's a member of the Church to say categorically, and I'm quoting you, that they are not a true prophet and it's not a true book, is a apostate statement. Clearly. Okay? End of story and just like you said at the beginning of your document that as you quoted prophets, these are foundational. Okay? {unintelligible} And if it's true that if Joseph isn't a prophet then there's a lot {unintelligible}. So tonight I'm basically here as your Stake President, and I asked your Bishop to meet with you to let you know that, that the statement that's on the web site is public and is an apostate statement and does cross the line. And I'm going to ask you to remove it and if not then, then I have no recourse than to hold a disciplinary council, which you've had before, and lost your membership years ago, not for the same reason. Um, that's, that's really what this meeting's about, right? I don't need to discuss why you think Joseph is or isn't, okay...
Me: No, but...
SP: I don't want to go there.
Me: But surrounding that statement, all I was doing was, uh, declaring my status at the moment and where I am now. That that doesn't mean that's where I'm going to be...
SP: understand that but...
Me: ...in the future. And, and, uh I think that the problem is, is probably with the word "fraud" but it's not mmmm...I borrowed it. Um, y-you probably read some of the other statements that I put in there where, where, uh, other leaders including Presidents of the Church have actually made a binary proposition that if everything that Joseph said is true, it's the greatest thing to mankind. If it's false, false it's the biggest fraud perpetrated on the human race! And that's the word that they used!
SP: Yes but they're not making that statement. They would categorically say that he is a true prophet.
Me: And they followed it up with that. Yes.
SP: And I would do the same, okay? You have chosen to take the arm of flesh, whether you like that word or not, it is true, in my book, because you will not receive anything from the spirit or from heaven as true. You only are taking what is from documents that men have created that are not scripture and uh, that p-prove J-Joseph Smith's not true. Well, uh, let me assure you that the fact of the matter is that we're facing is that, uh, you have publicly taught that Joseph Smith is not a prophet, because that's the piece that you've concluded and the Book of Mormon's not true and that is apostate {unintelligible}.
Me: But I haven't taught.
SP: Yes you have.
Me: No. I declared a statement of, of, I made a statement declaring my status {background protest by SP} and then subsequent to that I, I said if you wish to learn some of the things that I have learned, you would have to do your own homework, I'm not going to teach it. {background protest by SP "I read that. I read that"} And and I'm not going to teach it and I haven't been teaching it!
SP: Yes you have! You have taught that Joseph Smith is a fraud.
Me: No, I declared that that is my {background interruption by SP} opinion at the time.
SP (continuing from background interruption): That is still your teaching and the answer is that you can't be a member of the Church any longer.
Me: Well, we're kind of haggling on semantics and I disagree.
SP: Well, you can disagree but y-you can't disagree with what I'm going to say. And..and..
Me: Sure. Sure, sure.
SP: So, I am telling you, again, talked to {A-70}, he's in line with me, and it is. So that, that, and, and, now we have a choice to make. You can remove it and not, not put it back up and that you cannot be teaching to others that Joseph is a fraud. That's where we get. And, and or the Book of Mormon is false because you are a member. And to have somebody teach that Joseph Smith is not a prophet and to; that's saying it, that's teaching it, whether you like it or not, it's true; and that the Book of Mormon is, is a false book is apostate statements, and to say that publicly is teaching people that it's not true.
Me: Hmmm, I would still disagree. {interruption attempt} The whole purpose {interruption attempts continue} of that I, I stated clearly in, in, in, in that, uh, post.
SP (talking over me): So Bruce, you have two choices. I'm not changing my stance. {I am interrupting this time}. I've thought it out. I'm not here to argue.
Me: And I can't, honestly, change mine either because my purpose was to inform, uh, people that, rather than have rumor go out, I wanted to have things straight from the horse's mouth, as to where I was at the time. {Me talking over SP} And, and so it's; I wasn't teaching, I was declaring where I stood at the moment.
{Quick back and forth arguing about teaching/not teaching}
Me: I don't give any, I don't give any reasons why I think that, I don't, I don't...
SP: You don't have to. A lot of people accept things a...as is. As, as, as a maestro you could say...
Me: I told them they shouldn't. I told them they shouldn't. They should do their own...
SP: Doesn't matter. You stated a statement of fact from your standpoint.
Me (interrupting): Well, that's fine. I understand your, your standpoint and, and I think you probably now understand mine.
SP: Sure.
Me: I, I, I think it would be disingenuous to take it out because {interruption attempt} it is a, a true statement of where I stood so they were aware, because I do have friends and family that uh; I told my my immediate family by letter, personally, and uh, my in-laws found out through others. Um, but we've been conversing about it a little bit, not much. Um. But there's still large family, large family and so I wanted; and most of the friends that I have are family, the reason I, I used Facebook is because I've got kids scattered from Texas to Alaska and uh, all that and it makes it easier to keep track of everybody.
SP: Yes but you made, you made a point and it is, it is, whether you like it or not it's incorrect, so nonetheless if you're not going to remove and change that {becomes unintelligible but the jist is that the penalty is a disciplinary court}
.
.
.
.
.
{discussion of my past, first excommunication, what got me to where I am now}
.
.
.
{he likes the word "categorically" and said it several times in giving me his testimony and telling me I've erred and will find that out someday}
.
.
{we discuss study. He studies every day. We discussed Elder Ballard. I asked him if he has read the essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He said he won't go there.}
.
.
{we finally get back to business}
SP: You'll get a letter delivered by the Bishop and probably another Brother to schedule {unintelligible because he's talking very softly but refers to a disciplinary court} I'd like you to be there.

So, there you have the core if it.
 
  So stating your Opinion and Thoughts is Teaching.  So you can't teach anyone, but the Apostles and Higher 12's are exempt from that, because what they say is supposedly true and the right thing to teach.  
 
WOW..  
 
Thank you so much for posting the conversation.  So what would happen if you did take down the post?? 
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Posted: 25 March 2016 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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Thank you for sharing. This sounded like a frustrating exchange. Good for you for being strong and sticking to your guns. It strikes me as strange that his main concern seems to be that you posted your position, not that you hold that position that JS is a fraud and the BOM is a work of fiction.
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Posted: 25 March 2016 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Jonathan Bentz (formerly AspieXLDS)
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Sharing an opinion.... is teaching? Since when? Because when I think teaching, I think, classrooms, lectures, answering questions. Not, "if you want to learn about it, do the research for yourself." Maybe they latched onto the homework thing and are using that as an excuse... 
 
*shakes head* If sharing an opinion is teaching, than my other, unrelated to Mormonism blogs must be me teaching people what makes good entertainment and what the world is actually like rather than just my opinions of said elements of the world...  
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“All that is left for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke
“Welcome to the real world.” Morpheus to Neo, on the Matrix.
“You’re happy to believe in something that’s invisible, but if it’s staring you in the face, nope, can’t see it! There’s a scientific explanation for that… you’re thick!” - The 9th Doctor regarding the Human Race.


   


Posted: 26 March 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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So how do you feel about it now, Bruce? 

   


Posted: 26 March 2016 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
Winyan:
So how do you feel about it now, Bruce?
 
 Fine. Did you expect I'd change my mind? You don't know me very well!
 
 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 26 March 2016 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
Winyan:
So how do you feel about it now, Bruce?
 
 Fine. Did you expect I'd change my mind? You don't know me very well!
 
 
 
 No. It was simply a supportive inquiry to see how you're doing after your meeting. That's all.


   


Posted: 26 March 2016 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
Winyan:
Bruce A Holt:
Winyan:
So how do you feel about it now, Bruce?
 
 Fine. Did you expect I'd change my mind? You don't know me very well!
 
 
 
 No. It was simply a supportive inquiry to see how you're doing after your meeting. That's all.
 
 Then I don't know YOU very well! 
 
Thanks for your concern. I'm doing very well. I'll be even better soon... 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 27 March 2016 08:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
Strong Free & Thankful:
Bruce A Holt:
I had my meeting with my Stake President. He told me that he and Elder Hillier (A-70) discussed my FB post and determined it was a statement of apostasy and unless I take it down there will be a High Council Court held in my behalf. I declined. I will be allowed to present my side, if I wish during the court.

So, the next step will be the letter delivered in person that will "invite" me to the court and will set the date and time.

I'm another step closer.
 
By the way, I asked him if he has read the Essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He told me he studies but studies what he wants. I told him Elder Ballard says he needs to study the Essays. He told me he wasn't taking study suggestions from me. 
 
 What an arrogant jerk!  Do you wish to be excommunicated?  Looks like to me that is what is coming.  Or--you could take the post down--lie low for a little while and then resign?  Your call--but I am sure you know all of this.  You are more in control than they are.  Did Elder Ballard really say he needs to study the essays? 
 
 
 Thus ends the myth of the local ecclesiastical matter


   


Posted: 27 March 2016 09:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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So the guy who personally wields the power to move mountains, the person who knows the answers of life's most unaswerable questions........can't engage in an open, fact based conversation about the historic figure personally and soley responsible for the credibility of this guys (the SPs) super powers.............I wonder why...
 
Bruce you have pulled back the lie protecting the truth of the lie that is the church. The lie is that the facts matter, that the historical data points matter.  The church has successfully (at least with tbms) bamboozled their members into thinking that real history matters.  Who loves church history more than the church?  Who values church history more than the church?
 
The truth of the lie is that historical facts don't matter.  Church history doesn't matter. The truth of the lie is that the only thing that does matters is authority.  The only church response, to everything really, is BECAUSE I SAID SO.
 
It's too bad your SP was not willing to read anything.  You sure as hell tried.  More interestingly is that I don't think he didn't want to read about the facts because he was afraid, I don't think he did it because for him and for the church, the facts really don't matter.  I don't think the historical facts have mattered for a long, long time.....maybe since JS himself first realized he could get away with passing off lies as the truth.
 
Take the gold plates.  I'd imagine JS was like, "by gollly, all these people believe I have gold plates and I haven't actually had to show them.....the actual gold plates.  That's pretty damn interesting"  I think JS learned that people are willing to play along, regardless of their reasons, that people are willing to fill in the blanks of the lie, for a fantasy of life that makes them feel good, important, immortal. 
 
In 2016, 2003, 1995, 1989, 1975......I mean take your pick, keep working backwards, when did the the real historical truth of the church stop mattering?  I would argue that it never mattered.  It's all because I said so...
 
I saw God, err God and Jesus....because I said so.
I have gold plates.....because I said so.
Oh yeah, the Melchezidek priesthood was restored on the banks of the Susquehanna river like 5 years ago.....because I said so.
The temple signs, tokens, ordinances are restored from the meridian of time.....because I said so.
I can translate Egyptian....because I said so.
 
There really is no end to this game and Bruce A Holt, that's what you find yourself in the middle of, a game.  I'll call the game, Because I Said So and the only rule of the game is that only thing that matters is church authority. 
 
Really what your SP is saying is that as a member, you have no right to your own opinion, public or not regarding what the facts mean.  That it doesn't matter what you have read about JS, even if what you have read is true (nod to Oaks and his take on criticizing the church.....and yet another example of the because I said so mentality).
 
And really Bruce, it doen't matter what you read to them.............because your SP and the church are engaging in the same thing JS did, they are using their authority to perpetuate an institution whose primary function is to profit from creating and protecting members in their self delusion.  
 
The church is true!  Put your shoulder to the wheel.  All is well.  As man is.  He or She has died because they were called to do an important work in the spirit world.  If I pay my tithing, I will be blessed.  Hold to the iron rod.  Stay the course.  Grow where your planted.  That was a tender mercy.  Line upon line.  The greatest man to live on earth save Jesus.  Carry on, carry on.  Endure to the end.  I won't be tried more than I can bear.....
 
None of this kind of stuff matters in reality.  None of this kind of stuff needs facts or details.  This stuff feels good because................................it's supposed to feel good.  That's the whole purpose of the self delusion.  Would you believe a lie that made you feel bad?  It doesn't feel good because any of this real or even true (the mormon word to represent their deluded reality), it feels good precisely because it does not have to be real or actually.....true. 
 
And it's a hell of a deal.  As a tbm, the payoff is that you don't have to live in a reality where you have to live with the consequences of your own decisions.  Bad things are trials.  Good things are blessings.  If someting bad happens to your kids, it's bad but at least it's not your fault as a parent, the kid was simply not obedient.....and if they were obedient, it's still not your fault, because it's a trial from God.  As a member, you never flip the coin and lose because if it's heads, the church tells you, you win.  If it's tails, the church tells you, you win again.  The church gives you a life with no safety net because you never actually leave the ground.
 
Many members are just not going to let a few "litte flecks of history" (nod to GBH there) get in the way a deal like that just like early members really did not want to take the time to lift the cloth on those plates.  The lie of truth gives them more value than the facts about the lie.
 
And your SP has made that deal.  You are probably surrounded by people who have made that deal.  The great postmormon question applies, "if the church were not true, would you want to know?"  
 
I think your public post is just another way of asking that question.  Every time a postmormon brings up a negative fact about the church to a tbm, they are asking that question whether they want to or not.  One real fact in church history can threaten to bring down the whole game.  It's so fragile.
 
You are saying JS is a fraud but what the tbm hears is, "you want to know if I want to know if my life is a lie?"......their excercise in self delusion is threatened.  Of course, I believe the church actually agrees with you.......JS knew he did not have gold plates, he knew he was not having hands on conversations with Peter, James and John and he knew he couldn't translate Egyptian and the modern day apostles know they have not seen Jesus, the church system, its culture, is purposefully founded on facts that don't matter.
 
you are just not supposed to point out that they do.... 
 
The church is so afraid of members willing to lift the cloth. 
 
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 27 March 2016 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Lloyd Dobler:
So the guy who personally wields the power to move mountains, the person who knows the answers of life's most unaswerable questions........can't engage in an open, fact based conversation about the historic figure personally and soley responsible for the credibility of this guys (the SPs) super powers.............I wonder why...
 
Bruce you have pulled back the lie protecting the truth of the lie that is the church. The lie is that the facts matter, that the historical data points matter.  The church has successfully (at least with tbms) bamboozled their members into thinking that real history matters.  Who loves church history more than the church?  Who values church history more than the church?
 
The truth of the lie is that historical facts don't matter.  Church history doesn't matter. The truth of the lie is that the only thing that does matters is authority.  The only church response, to everything really, is BECAUSE I SAID SO.
 
It's too bad your SP was not willing to read anything.  You sure as hell tried.  More interestingly is that I don't think he didn't want to read about the facts because he was afraid, I don't think he did it because for him and for the church, the facts really don't matter.  I don't think the historical facts have mattered for a long, long time.....maybe since JS himself first realized he could get away with passing off lies as the truth.
 
Take the gold plates.  I'd imagine JS was like, "by gollly, all these people believe I have gold plates and I haven't actually had to show them.....the actual gold plates.  That's pretty damn interesting"  I think JS learned that people are willing to play along, regardless of their reasons, that people are willing to fill in the blanks of the lie, for a fantasy of life that makes them feel good, important, immortal. 
 
In 2016, 2003, 1995, 1989, 1975......I mean take your pick, keep working backwards, when did the the real historical truth of the church stop mattering?  I would argue that it never mattered.  It's all because I said so...
 
I saw God, err God and Jesus....because I said so.
I have gold plates.....because I said so.
Oh yeah, the Melchezidek priesthood was restored on the banks of the Susquehanna river like 5 years ago.....because I said so.
The temple signs, tokens, ordinances are restored from the meridian of time.....because I said so.
I can translate Egyptian....because I said so.
 
There really is no end to this game and Bruce A Holt, that's what you find yourself in the middle of, a game.  I'll call the game, Because I Said So and the only rule of the game is that only thing that matters is church authority. 
 
Really what your SP is saying is that as a member, you have no right to your own opinion, public or not regarding what the facts mean.  That it doesn't matter what you have read about JS, even if what you have read is true (nod to Oaks and his take on criticizing the church.....and yet another example of the because I said so mentality).
 
And really Bruce, it doen't matter what you read to them.............because your SP and the church are engaging in the same thing JS did, they are using their authority to perpetuate an institution whose primary function is to profit from creating and protecting members in their self delusion.  
 
The church is true!  Put your shoulder to the wheel.  All is well.  As man is.  He or She has died because they were called to do an important work in the spirit world.  If I pay my tithing, I will be blessed.  Hold to the iron rod.  Stay the course.  Grow where your planted.  That was a tender mercy.  Line upon line.  The greatest man to live on earth save Jesus.  Carry on, carry on.  Endure to the end.  I won't be tried more than I can bear.....
 
None of this kind of stuff matters in reality.  None of this kind of stuff needs facts or details.  This stuff feels good because................................it's supposed to feel good.  That's the whole purpose of the self delusion.  Would you believe a lie that made you feel bad?  It doesn't feel good because any of this real or even true (the mormon word to represent their deluded reality), it feels good precisely because it does not have to be real or actually.....true. 
 
And it's a hell of a deal.  As a tbm, the payoff is that you don't have to live in a reality where you have to live with the consequences of your own decisions.  Bad things are trials.  Good things are blessings.  If someting bad happens to your kids, it's bad but at least it's not your fault as a parent, the kid was simply not obedient.....and if they were obedient, it's still not your fault, because it's a trial from God.  As a member, you never flip the coin and lose because if it's heads, the church tells you, you win.  If it's tails, the church tells you, you win again.  The church gives you a life with no safety net because you never actually leave the ground.
 
Many members are just not going to let a few "litte flecks of history" (nod to GBH there) get in the way a deal like that just like early members really did not want to take the time to lift the cloth on those plates.  The lie of truth gives them more value than the facts about the lie.
 
And your SP has made that deal.  You are probably surrounded by people who have made that deal.  The great postmormon question applies, "if the church were not true, would you want to know?"  
 
I think your public post is just another way of asking that question.  Every time a postmormon brings up a negative fact about the church to a tbm, they are asking that question whether they want to or not.  One real fact in church history can threaten to bring down the whole game.  It's so fragile.
 
You are saying JS is a fraud but what the tbm hears is, "you want to know if I want to know if my life is a lie?"......their excercise in self delusion is threatened.  Of course, I believe the church actually agrees with you.......JS knew he did not have gold plates, he knew he was not having hands on conversations with Peter, James and John and he knew he couldn't translate Egyptian and the modern day apostles know they have not seen Jesus, the church system, its culture, is purposefully founded on facts that don't matter.
 
you are just not supposed to point out that they do.... 
 
The church is so afraid of members willing to lift the cloth. 
 
 
That is a very well written post and I agree with you!
 
Thanks. 
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Posted: 27 March 2016 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:

I'm with you on this. I see myself going out the same way. 
 
I find it interesting that the SP can justify calling Elder Ballard's talk YOUR advice. Every Mormon is a buffet Mormon... 
 
Just reading through the thread, haven't got to the end yet, but I just had to point out that this is gold. I'll be using it in the future.
 
We now return you to your regular reading... 
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Posted: 27 March 2016 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler:
... circumcised for easter and to save space ...
 
The church is so afraid of members willing to lift the cloth. 
 
 
 The cult is so afraid of tbms to being willing to lift the 'loin cloth' and in fact see that this king-dom has no clothes.
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Posted: 27 March 2016 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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I just want to add that while everybody that is "tbm" is deluding themselves, some more willingly than others, you just never know when or how or why it clicks and they drop the charade.  We all know people that you would never think would drop the con, drop the con all the time.  I always think it is worth being honest and telling the truth to tbms.  I admire what you are doing and hope it helps get you where you need to go with your family.
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Posted: 27 March 2016 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Lloyd Dobler:
I just want to add that while everybody that is "tbm" is deluding themselves, some more willingly than others, you just never know when or how or why it clicks and they drop the charade.  We all know people that you would never think would drop the con, drop the con all the time.  I always think it is worth being honest and telling the truth to tbms.  I admire what you are doing and hope it helps get you where you need to go with your family.
 
I hope so, too. Thanks.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Bruce A Holt:
{we discuss study. He studies every day. We discussed Elder Ballard. I asked him if he has read the essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He said he won't go there.}
.
.
{we finally get back to business}
SP: You'll get a letter delivered by the Bishop and probably another Brother to schedule {unintelligible because he's talking very softly but refers to a disciplinary court} I'd like you to be there.

So, there you have the core if it.
 
Thanks for sharing Bruce. When the Church started going after the editors involved with the MormonThink website, one of the SP's reaction was somewhat similar. 
 
However, he intially 'allowed' the accused to bring up issues like BOA, polyandry, BOM anachronisms but he would not even acknowledge them. He would not confirm nor deny them.  All he said at the end was if he had issues that troubled him, he would put them on his shelf - yeah he really said that.  This was in a private meeting (not a church court).  This was before the essays came out.
 
After that meeting, he would not discuss the issues at all.  He was not open to negotiating about the website.  His actions seemed punitive in nature.


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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Good luck to you, Bruce A Holt. I agree with Lloyd Dobler: the historical facts aren't the issue. You not bowing before authority is the issue. My vision for the hearing wouldn't match yours, so instead I'll wish you the best and I'll look forward to the report on how it went.
 
If one of the goals is to cause others to squirm enough that thinking ensues, then hold close to that boundary, never slipping into flagrant apostasy during your court o' love. More thinking happens when we have to engage judgment rather than reflexes.
 
Years ago I had a stake president threaten me with excommunication because of a letter that I wrote to my kids. I asked him, "You mean that a father cannot even tell his own kids what he believes?"
 
"Oh no," President W. said. "I think you should tell them. But not as a Mormon."
 
 
 
It says a lot about the church that sharing beliefs is encouraged, but only beliefs of one flavor. All others must be banished or hidden.


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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It sounds like you're getting a court of love. I wonder: what would happen if someone brought legal representation to one of these things? Would they refuse to allow the court to hide their shame? Would they send you home and tell you they were holding the court without you? I bet you can't bring in outsiders...
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Posted: 28 March 2016 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie:
Good luck to you, Bruce A Holt. I agree with Lloyd Dobler: the historical facts aren't the issue. You not bowing before authority is the issue. My vision for the hearing wouldn't match yours, so instead I'll wish you the best and I'll look forward to the report on how it went.
 
If one of the goals is to cause others to squirm enough that thinking ensues, then hold close to that boundary, never slipping into flagrant apostasy during your court o' love. More thinking happens when we have to engage judgment rather than reflexes.
 
Years ago I had a stake president threaten me with excommunication because of a letter that I wrote to my kids. I asked him, "You mean that a father cannot even tell his own kids what he believes?"
 
"Oh no," President W. said. "I think you should tell them. But not as a Mormon."
 
 
 
It says a lot about the church that sharing beliefs is encouraged, but only beliefs of one flavor. All others must be banished or hidden.
 
 Simply amazing.  It's no longer the level of crazy that shocks me anymore but the sheer variety the crazy comes in.....CW, you gave me a chuckle today.
 
This whole thing with Bruce may turn into ecclesiastical whack a mole.  At some point, so many members are going to have enough facts that the leaders may not be able to smack them all down.  At least a man can dream.
 
I think most leaders are of an age where they really don't know much about the issues and react like Bruce's leaders.  But in 20 years, the leadership may just be informed enough so that they don't even have to refuse to read because they will already have a pretty good idea.  It won't make them NOM or a closet non believer......but CW do you ever see a day when fatigue just sets in upon the leaders regarding the information and the members calling bullshit?  Would that look any different than it does today regarding calling church courts on people like Bruce?
 
I understand that authority is authority and keeping your mouth shut is keeping your mouth shut but jesus I gotta think the continually expanding of the breadth and depth of member awarness regarding the real history will take its toll in some observable way.
 
I wonder what you, the great MormonThink or anybody else thinks about this. 
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Posted: 28 March 2016 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Morethanmo:
It sounds like you're getting a court of love. I wonder: what would happen if someone brought legal representation to one of these things? Would they refuse to allow the court to hide their shame? Would they send you home and tell you they were holding the court without you? I bet you can't bring in outsiders...
 
My letter inviting me to the court states, "You are invited to attend this disciplinary council to give your response and, if you wish, to provide witnesses and other evidence in your behalf."
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Posted: 28 March 2016 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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Bruce A Holt:
Morethanmo:
It sounds like you're getting a court of love. I wonder: what would happen if someone brought legal representation to one of these things? Would they refuse to allow the court to hide their shame? Would they send you home and tell you they were holding the court without you? I bet you can't bring in outsiders...
 
My letter inviting me to the court states, "You are invited to attend this disciplinary council to give your response and, if you wish, to provide witnesses and other evidence in your behalf."
 
Don't get your hopes up. That's standard wording. 
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Posted: 29 March 2016 02:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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JS learned that people are willing to play along, regardless of their reasons, that people are willing to fill in the blanks of the lie, for a fantasy of life that makes them feel good, important, immortal. 
  
The church is so afraid of members willing to lift the cloth. 
 
 
 Great statements!
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Posted: 18 March 2016 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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This old thread is related:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/84/
 
I can certainly see value in completely separating yourself from the church, but as mentioned in a podcast I was listening to (I think it was this one: http://mormonstories.org/eric-reeves-son-of-linda-reeves/) there can be value in staying a member and fighting for change from within.
 
There are pros and cons to either, and neither way is easy. What do you think is the most effective approach? Is it worth the tradeoffs?
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Posted: 18 March 2016 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I vote RESIGN !  The more of us that get out the less power and money the morg has to continue causing damage.  I can't even imagine staying in and trying to bring about change.  I don't want them to change, I just want them to fail and I want the few family members that are still stuck in the cult to find out the truth and get out. 
 
Having someone fake it and make it to the top with the intention of exposing the fraud would be great to watch.  But I can't imagine giving my life to such a cause.  They've taken too much of our lives already. 


   


Posted: 18 March 2016 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I voted "something else"  and my something else would be
all of the above.  
Some people need to resign and get themselves out asap.  The more that leave, the more the church must notice.  
Some people are stuck inside for various reasons but can agitate for change from within.   The more people "rebel, the more the church must pay attention.  
I think both ot these approaches have their advantages and both can have an effect on achieving change.  
 
Not sure about that double agent thing, but hey, why not.  
But I would NOT volunteer for that duty.  Eek!!  
 
 
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Posted: 18 March 2016 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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SuziQ:
I vote RESIGN !  The more of us that get out the less power and money the morg has to continue causing damage.  I can't even imagine staying in and trying to bring about change.  I don't want them to change, I just want them to fail and I want the few family members that are still stuck in the cult to find out the truth and get out. 
 
Having someone fake it and make it to the top with the intention of exposing the fraud would be great to watch.  But I can't imagine giving my life to such a cause.  They've taken too much of our lives already. 
 Absolutely agree.  It is too ugly, based on lies and dangerous to ever salvage.  Stupid cult!
 
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Posted: 18 March 2016 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Strong Free & Thankful:
SuziQ:
I vote RESIGN !  The more of us that get out the less power and money the morg has to continue causing damage.  I can't even imagine staying in and trying to bring about change.  I don't want them to change, I just want them to fail and I want the few family members that are still stuck in the cult to find out the truth and get out. 
 
Having someone fake it and make it to the top with the intention of exposing the fraud would be great to watch.  But I can't imagine giving my life to such a cause.  They've taken too much of our lives already. 
 Absolutely agree.  It is too ugly, based on lies and dangerous to ever salvage.  Stupid cult!
 
 
 Yeah I realized after posting the poll that the only reason it would probably be worth staying and seeking change from within would be because you still believe it to be the True Church with some flaws. Some feel that way, and as such, it makes sense for them to stay like Dave mentioned.   
 
I do think people like Dehlin and Runnells have helped more people by dragging out their association with the church and forcing its hand to ex them than they would have by resigning. I hope Jeremy gets a lot of media coverage on his court and letter.   
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Posted: 18 March 2016 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo):
I voted "something else"  and my something else would be
all of the above.  
Some people need to resign and get themselves out asap.  The more that leave, the more the church must notice.  
Some people are stuck inside for various reasons but can agitate for change from within.   The more people "rebel, the more the church must pay attention.  
I think both ot these approaches have their advantages and both can have an effect on achieving change.  
 
Not sure about that double agent thing, but hey, why not.  
But I would NOT volunteer for that duty.  Eek!!  
 
 
 
 Might be as dangerous as a James Bond movie--who really knows?
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 04:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
former victim
Long Timer
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I chose "resign" because resign I did. My empty seat counts for something, even empty. As time goes by, and more empty seats appear, perceived authority diminishes. Can you imagine, having a meeting with nobody attending to talk to or address? Nothing but a vacant. or partially vacant room?


Granted, that's certainly only my wishful thinking, for things to come. But as I see more and more of the younger members around here getting away from it, because it doesn't serve or fulfill a need anymore, well, that's encouraging to observe.
 

As far as hoping for a "Mole" to penetrate the hierarchy, the Catholics have that possibility covered too, where the Cardinals in Rome take over and run the show. For the life of the Pope if necessary.Same with TSCC in Utah, corporate bylaws in the D&C provide for any controversial leader be voted out and a successor chosen from within the aspiring ranks of the Q12. A very well oiled, self correcting machine indeed!


In my way of thinking, resignation effects change quicker than almost anything else available.








 


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 04:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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   I picked resign, somehow for me it seems better to simply walk away than give them validation. As The Donald would say, "They are huuge", and much too huge to tangle with.
 
   However, I would really get a kick out of seeing an infiltrator pull the curtain back enough for all to see that the Mighty Wizard was only a small man with a huuge ego and the means to connive others. 
 



   


Posted: 19 March 2016 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
former victim
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-11-25
 
  
 
former victim:
I chose "resign" because resign I did. My empty seat counts for something, even empty. As time goes by, and more empty seats appear, perceived authority diminishes. Can you imagine, having a meeting with nobody attending to talk to or address? Nothing but a vacant. or partially vacant room?




Granted, that's certainly only my wishful thinking, for things to come. But as I see more and more of the younger members around here getting away from it, because it doesn't serve or fulfill a need anymore, well, that's encouraging to observe.
 

As far as hoping for a "Mole" to penetrate the hierarchy, the Catholics have that possibility covered too, where the Cardinals in Rome take over and run the show. For the life of the Pope if necessary.Same with TSCC in Utah, corporate bylaws in the D&C provide for any controversial leader be voted out and a successor chosen from within the aspiring ranks of the Q12. A very well oiled, self correcting machine indeed!




In my way of thinking, resignation effects change quicker than almost anything else available.








 
 
 


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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In my exit my response to an enabler called a stake president I made the suggestion that the best way to help me stay in the cult called a church was to build a time machine. Go back in time and make all the history real and factual that they have been presenting and selling as truth.
 
Another method is to do what mr dehlin has been doing and that is to out mormon the mormons. Create a business that draws followers and donators. 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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My vote: "Something else"
 
I'm standing up against my local leaders. One result so far is that my Bishop is now reading the essays. Next stop: Wedenesday meeting with the Stake President. I'll ask if he's read the essays and if not, tell him too he's derelict in his duty, just like I did my Bishop. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Stop giving it money, in any form.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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I chose "Infiltrate high positions..." because it would be über-fun to watch the thing explode from the inside!  I say this with a caveat, though:  Most people, especially those who would frequent PostMormon.org, are too aware that such an infiltration, while it would ultimately eliminate any and all danger posed by the COJCOLDS, the outright harm to individuals and families might not be worth the inevitable explosion.  I think the folks here are simply too kindhearted to even scam their other 14/70 bretheren for the length of time it would take and at the expense of those families.
 
It's just not our style.  
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 19 March 2016 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Brother of Jared
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Tessa:
Stop giving it money, in any form.
 
 I agree, Tessa. Thank you for coming to the point of the matter.


   


Posted: 21 March 2016 03:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Hank
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If only about 5 million of the 15 million members are active, it would be a powerful statement if a majority of those inactives simply resigned. Can you imagine the next general conference? "Membership is now only 6 million, oh but those 6 million are of the best generation, the most faithful and will grow the church in the future to fill the earth..." 

   


Posted: 21 March 2016 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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The weeks before I resigned from the morg, it was all I could do to not go screaming from the church(it was like scraping fingernails on a blackboard).  I had already stopped going to EQ from the time I was released as the EQ instructor(I remember teaching those mindnumbing HORSESHIT lessons from the gospel essentials book(teaching those lessons to a room full of RM's)  --  talk about milk before meat  --  it was gruel! I could have never stayed(after 57 years  --  enough was more than enough).  If nothing else, I don't have to sit through three hours of mindnumbing HORSESHIT anymore!  I have attended a baptism(a grandson) and a funeral(TBMDW's uncle)  --  no white shirt and no tie! 

   


Posted: 21 March 2016 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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There are people in the world who are tortured and killed by their own government.  There people enslaved, raped, beaten, and killed.  There are regions where thousands die of starvation, disease, floods, or earthquakes.  Real horrors, real tragedies.
 
Mormons have a religion which makes them feel bad. They are free to practice that religion, or leave it, to speak out in favor or against.  
 
No one's getting tortured, killed, or starved.
 
Why not just get out and get on with life?  I don't understand any need to "change the LDS Church from within." Infiltrate as a double agent? This is not drug gang, or the Mafia.  C'mon.  Me thinks some people need to let go and move on. 
 
I recognize others' right to practice their religion as they choose, even if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. 
 
 


   


Posted: 21 March 2016 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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I recall my humour the first time I heard the expression 'He's a bad egg'.
It's a pretty toxic call to make on another human being, and these days I'd separate a person from their actions, and make clear my call on the behaviour, in an attempt to maintain positive regard on the person's core worth.
Sadly, I cannot muster the same good will with regard to Mormonism, and it is because I regard it as 'bad egg' right from its inception, and I see miniscule likelihood it will change, given the nature of human dynamics in groups.
Mormonism started with Smith, and the record reveals unambiguously that he was highly problematic from very early on. Post-humously identified with NPD, rampant gradiosity, convicted con-man, and addicted womaniser makes for a highly problematic starting list.
Then on top of that you have to add what he was prepared to do to conceal the above, and you'd be hard pressed to surpass what he initiated against the Laws and their press.
 
Then on that foundation, an organisation and a culture is built, and from the get go, it was as keen to embrace lying as a mode of operation as he was.
So what chance would you rate that of core and systemic change?
Call me cynical, but with my 60+ years of life experience and study of human nature, I'd rate it as SFA.
 
Daryl 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Dear Left  --  just a couple of questions.  Have you resigned from the church  --  if not, how do you manage to go to a church week after week knowing the they preach HORSESHIT taught by the morg whose founder was a lying, deceiving male whore  --  if yes, how did you feel when you developed a testamonkey that the morg was built on the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT and when you told all you beloveds that you were leaving the church, how did they respond?  Do you remember the little diddy  --  sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me.  Well, I know for a fact that names can sting like anything.  Morgbots have a word that eats at some people terribly(doesn't bother me  --  never has/never will) and that word is APOSTATE!  I know the church isn't the Mafia but it is the most effective "emotional terrorist" on the planet(they have %$&*ed up lots of people in so many ways) and some of its disgusting christian morgbots use one of the best tools in their arsenal(and they ought to shove it up their collective arses) and that techniques is SHUNNING  --  the Amish use this method very effectively but if the Amish were to watch morgbots in action, they would be green with envy.  I remember when our oldest daughter left the church(she is my hero in so many ways and I've told her that many times even though she doesn't feel like a hero) my TBM family said that she is lost, let's pray for her so that she will find her way and come back.  First off, I never said that nor did I believe that  --  just maybe she has found her way and the rest of the TBM family is so entrenched in their morgbot comas that they can't/won't see the forest for the trees.  I have read on this site and other sites some of the experiences of those who have told their familes  --  AMFIAG  --  and it was not pretty.  I hope some day(and each sunday when I don't have to spend 3 hrs listening to the mindnumbing HORSESHIT, I feel the healing) I can let it go, but after 57 years of HORSESHIT, it is going to take a while.  And as I use to say to my students  --  in time people can heal  --  how much time  --  as long as it takes  --  and since I am no longer a morgbot, it gets better every day.  And that is   .......    PRICELESS! 

   


Posted: 22 March 2016 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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leftasteen:
There are people in the world who are tortured and killed by their own government.  There people enslaved, raped, beaten, and killed.  There are regions where thousands die of starvation, disease, floods, or earthquakes.  Real horrors, real tragedies.
 
Mormons have a religion which makes them feel bad. They are free to practice that religion, or leave it, to speak out in favor or against.  
 
No one's getting tortured, killed, or starved.
 
Why not just get out and get on with life?  I don't understand any need to "change the LDS Church from within." Infiltrate as a double agent? This is not drug gang, or the Mafia.  C'mon.  Me thinks some people need to let go and move on. 
 
I recognize others' right to practice their religion as they choose, even if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. 
 
 
 
Enslaved, tortured, raped, beaten, killed - mormonism's sordid history can put a check mark beside each of these. Maybe nobody is getting tortured or killed these days, but it's much more insidious than that. Starved of the affection of a believing spouse, soul being crushed by shunning or branding as apostate, rejection by loved family members, loss of friends and job... Although these may not be physical dangers, they are very real to those dealing with them. 
 
Why not just get out and on with life? Because most of us still have family we love who are still trapped by this hideous organization.
 
Why change it from within? Becasue these same family and friends have been carefully trained from birth to reject anything from an apostate, and to fully trust the organization, that's why. If the dissonance comes from a dissenter who has left, well... he/she is just a "bitter apostate" as defined by the organization. If the dissonance were to come from within, that may cause some people to think but even at that, they'll trot out the old saw "even the very elect will be deceived" and write it off, with the dissenter from within quickly branded with the apostate label and flushed down the memory hole. But I can certainly see why change from within would be, in some cases, more effective than hearing it from an "untrustworthy" (read: apostate) source.
 
Why not just let go and move on? Because we can't leave loved ones behind.
 
Believe me, there is nothing I would love more than to leave it all behind. I would love to have Sister Unorganized come to me and tell me that she has lost belief and let's move on together, but that hasn't happened yet. Even if it did happen, we'd need to tell our remaining TBM kids, our siblings, our parents and get them out as well... but THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Tessa:
Stop giving it money, in any form.
 
I voted "Something Else" for the lack of Tessa's reason not being an option.
 
The Church simply could care less, if I resigned or not, however:
 
What I am proud to say is that my tbm wife and active children continue to consume resources of the church, and we do not pay a f*****g dime in tithing to the church.
 
Organizations can lie about numbers, but sooner or later if they can't make bankroll, it is hard to keep the doors open.
 
If tbms really want to see change happen in the church, then a grassroots movement need to push members to boycott paying 'tithing'
 
I can imagaine how many 'revelations' would come to the deaf Q15, if  the revenue streems began to dry up.
 
The Mormon church misses my money a Hell of a lot more than me. 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Tessa:
Stop giving it money, in any form.
 
I voted "Something Else" for the lack of Tessa's reason not being an option.
 
The Church simply could care less, if I resigned or not, however:
 
What I am proud to say is that my tbm wife and active children continue to consume resources of the church, and we do not pay a f*****g dime in tithing to the church.
 
Organizations can lie about numbers, but sooner or later if they can't make bankroll, it is hard to keep the doors open.
 
If tbms really want to see change happen in the church, then a grassroots movement need to push members to boycott paying 'tithing'
 
I can imagaine how many 'revelations' would come to the deaf Q15, if  the revenue streems began to dry up.
 
The Mormon church misses my money a Hell of a lot more than me. 
 
 An article--say in the NY Times--listing the problems that are being caused by church leaders with this suggestion of how to get their attention would be a great start.  I agree--hit them in the pocket book.  I will be so happy when they get out of the business of religion and into their real estate businnes full time.  Actually, they should return all they have made to us--former tithe payers.  It is stolen money.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Administrator
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Joined  2007-05-08
 
  
 
leftasteen:
There are people in the world who are tortured and killed by their own government.  There people enslaved, raped, beaten, and killed.  There are regions where thousands die of starvation, disease, floods, or earthquakes.  Real horrors, real tragedies.
 
Mormons have a religion which makes them feel bad. They are free to practice that religion, or leave it, to speak out in favor or against.  
 
No one's getting tortured, killed, or starved.
 
Why not just get out and get on with life?  I don't understand any need to "change the LDS Church from within." Infiltrate as a double agent? This is not drug gang, or the Mafia.  C'mon.  Me thinks some people need to let go and move on. 
 
I recognize others' right to practice their religion as they choose, even if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. 
 
 
 
   Rather than dismiss what you say you don't understand, why not listen and try to understand why other people feel differently than you?  
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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leftasteen:
There are people in the world who are tortured and killed by their own government.  There people enslaved, raped, beaten, and killed.  There are regions where thousands die of starvation, disease, floods, or earthquakes.  Real horrors, real tragedies.
 
Mormons have a religion which makes them feel bad. They are free to practice that religion, or leave it, to speak out in favor or against.  
 
No one's getting tortured, killed, or starved.
 
Why not just get out and get on with life?  I don't understand any need to "change the LDS Church from within." Infiltrate as a double agent? This is not drug gang, or the Mafia.  C'mon.  Me thinks some people need to let go and move on. 
 
I recognize others' right to practice their religion as they choose, even if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. 
 
 
 
 I am willing to bet $1 that leftasteen was never really mormon, does not understand what the lds history was built upon and especially the methods used in building that "kingdom". Recognizing others rights is good. Helping people pull their heads out of the sand is chivalrous and good for society in the long run.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
I would guess Mormonism will decline but it will be a death by a thousand cuts. Leaving I feel was the best course of action for me. My single act has no effect on Mormonism as an organization, but it's huge for me. If I had the methods and resources to truly correct the church I imagine that I would take great satisfaction in doing so. But since it was 100% founded on a fraud there really is nothing left once you remove the lies. Think about it once you remove the priesthood, BOM, BOA, temple work, profits$... You have nothing of consequence left. Of course you have nothing of consequence now; you have no special power or link to something Devine, no special knowledge, no keys. But if you believe you do it can be dangerous to you and your family. People will make decisions based on belief rather than fact. It’s a lot like believing you can fly and jumping of the roof like superman.  It’s probably best that the balloon deflates slowly if all the Mormons figured it out at once there would not be enough bars in Utah to handle the demand and the price of coffee would spike. 


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
Jr. Member
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Joined  2016-02-03
 
  
 
FreeLive:
leftasteen:
There are people in the world who are tortured and killed by their own government.  There people enslaved, raped, beaten, and killed.  There are regions where thousands die of starvation, disease, floods, or earthquakes.  Real horrors, real tragedies.
 
Mormons have a religion which makes them feel bad. They are free to practice that religion, or leave it, to speak out in favor or against.  
 
No one's getting tortured, killed, or starved.
 
Why not just get out and get on with life?  I don't understand any need to "change the LDS Church from within." Infiltrate as a double agent? This is not drug gang, or the Mafia.  C'mon.  Me thinks some people need to let go and move on. 
 
I recognize others' right to practice their religion as they choose, even if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. 
 
 
 
 I am willing to bet $1 that leftasteen was never really mormon, does not understand what the lds history was built upon and especially the methods used in building that "kingdom". Recognizing others rights is good. Helping people pull their heads out of the sand is chivalrous and good for society in the long run.
 
We all experienced Mormonism in different ways and to different levels. I was controlled and manipulated for decades. Leaving has been a 10 year journey that has caused myself and my family a great deal of pain. I've never been physically tortured but my emotional pain will be a scar that will never leave me.
 
My wife joined as a teenager and was never really that involved. Leaving for her has been tough but her family supported her. Consequently I find she had a easier time letting it all go and moving on.
 
I have a gay cousin and a lesbian cousin(same dad). When they came out at different times several years apart their father said some of the worst things. Kicked them out. One tried to kill herself more than once. This is the kind of emotional torture that the church condones and reinforces. Look at the suicide rates and suicide attempts in Utah. Those numbers are going up and up. My cousins moved across the county to find peace and luckily both live full and happy lives.
 
For so many people the reach of the church into their lives will never go away. For those that are impacted by the church policies they may feel the need to infiltrate and affect change. As you can see by the poll most do not feel that need or desire.
 
Leftasateen if you enjoy reading I recommend checking out a recent book "Saving Alex" written by a brave young woman who outlines her torture and punishment for being a gay teen in the Mormon church. For many people just getting out is not enough.
 
Thanks for sharing your opinion even though it is not a popular one on this site. Everyone here can relate to having an unpopular opinion  
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Speaking of unpopular opinion.... I know this letter was unpoplular with the cult! It was also a catalyst for ground work of change locally within the lds cult. When a person acts on honesty and with integrity, which are talked about in doctrine of the lds cult, those very principles mean something and motivate people. The so called NOM bullshit and dehlinism just keep people in a cultic stupor.
.................................................................................................................................. 
 
Free2Live
address
usa
 
Independence Day! July 4th, 2015
 
LDS Corporation record number : xxx=xxxx=xxxx
DOB xx xxx xxxx Baptismal date : xx xxx xxxx Endowment date : xx xxx xxxx location
Member Records
50 E North Temple, Room 1372
Salt Lake City, UT 84150-5310
United States
This letter is my formal resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it is effective immediately. I hereby withdraw my consent to being treated as a member and I withdraw my consent to being subject to church rules, policies, beliefs and 'discipline'. As I am no longer a member, I legally declare my name permanently and completely removed from the membership rolls of the church as of July 04, 2015. Under case law from court decisions against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints this is not a request, THIS IS A FINAL AND LEGALLY BINDING DOCUMENT as of your reception of this letter. Do not fool your selves with delayed bureaucratic politicking in this matter. I hereby waive any supposed time frame for change of mind. In retail there is a governmental 3 day right of rescission. I reject your product of religious genre.
I have given this matter considerable thought. I understand what you consider the 'seriousness' and the 'consequences' of my actions. I am aware that the church handbook says that my resignation "cancels the effects of baptism and confirmation, withdraws the priesthood held by a male member and revokes temple blessings" I also understand that I will be "readmitted to the church by baptism only after a thorough interview". (quotes from the current Church Handbook of Instructions) However, under D&C 112, I reserve the right to await a Jesus to cleanse the church corporation before any such consideration. AT such a cleansing event I then may allow a Jesus to personally baptize me himself. However, my testimony is that the church is a hoax from day one.
My resignation should be processed immediately, without any 'waiting periods'. I am not going to be dissuaded and I am not going to change my mind. I expect this matter to be handled promptly, with respect and with full confidentiality.
After today, the only contact I want from the church is a single letter of confirmation to let me know that I am no longer listed as a member of the church. I will accept the return of all moneys refunded that I was cheated out of.
In gratitude I list here a few names of very active lds members that have helped me find my way out from the delusion of mormon life and culture:
 
xxxxxx x xxxxxx
xxxxxxx x xxxxxxx xx
xxxxx xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx x xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxx x xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxx xxxxx
xxxxxx x xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
xxxx xxxx
xxxxx x xxxxxx 
 
Sincerely,
 
Free2Live 
 
  
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
leftasteen:
There are people in the world who are tortured and killed by their own government.  There people enslaved, raped, beaten, and killed.  There are regions where thousands die of starvation, disease, floods, or earthquakes.  Real horrors, real tragedies.
 
Mormons have a religion which makes them feel bad. They are free to practice that religion, or leave it, to speak out in favor or against.  
 
No one's getting tortured, killed, or starved.
 
Why not just get out and get on with life?  I don't understand any need to "change the LDS Church from within." Infiltrate as a double agent? This is not drug gang, or the Mafia.  C'mon.  Me thinks some people need to let go and move on. 
 
I recognize others' right to practice their religion as they choose, even if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. 
 
 
 
Enslaved, tortured, raped, beaten, killed - mormonism's sordid history can put a check mark beside each of these. Maybe nobody is getting tortured or killed these days, but it's much more insidious than that. Starved of the affection of a believing spouse, soul being crushed by shunning or branding as apostate, rejection by loved family members, loss of friends and job... Although these may not be physical dangers, they are very real to those dealing with them. 
 
Why not just get out and on with life? Because most of us still have family we love who are still trapped by this hideous organization.
 
Why change it from within? Becasue these same family and friends have been carefully trained from birth to reject anything from an apostate, and to fully trust the organization, that's why. If the dissonance comes from a dissenter who has left, well... he/she is just a "bitter apostate" as defined by the organization. If the dissonance were to come from within, that may cause some people to think but even at that, they'll trot out the old saw "even the very elect will be deceived" and write it off, with the dissenter from within quickly branded with the apostate label and flushed down the memory hole. But I can certainly see why change from within would be, in some cases, more effective than hearing it from an "untrustworthy" (read: apostate) source.
 
Why not just let go and move on? Because we can't leave loved ones behind.
 
Believe me, there is nothing I would love more than to leave it all behind. I would love to have Sister Unorganized come to me and tell me that she has lost belief and let's move on together, but that hasn't happened yet. Even if it did happen, we'd need to tell our remaining TBM kids, our siblings, our parents and get them out as well... but THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
 
 I have felt the pain of emotional starvation, alienation, and rejection.  I had a hard time reading your pain because it brought back horrific memories of how piercing emotional pain or the pain of deep depression can be.  To me the emotional pain I suffered was as dreadful as any physical pain I have ever experienced.
 


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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I think there is a BIG difference between what MU is doing, "staying in" because of a loved one and what I think the OP is suggesting and that is to be a non believer whose justification for staying in is to affect change in the church.
 
I have a lot of respect for people who have to still go or keep their names on for marriage and family reasons.  Sometimes, it takes a long time for a strategy to get out to happen. I should know, it took me about 8 years to get free and clear of the church. 
 
But I really don't have a lot of respect for nom types who don't believe but WANT to stay in and use "affecting change from within" as one of their reasons.
 
Affecting change in the church means challenging the authority and holding the church accountable.  You can't do that from the inside.  Sure you can be a member and as a member affect change, Kate Kelly did it.  But to do it you have to engage in outsider behaviors, which eventualy makes you an outsider, excommunicated or not.  In Kate's case, I really do think she affected some change.  Women pray in conference, they sit on the stand and now dudes don't have to go to the stake center to watch priesthood.  So it's change on a general and public level so all the world can see just how progressive the church is.............however to do it, to affect this change, she had to challenge and hold church authority accountable and she got exed.
 
What change happens at the ward and stake level.  I could easily argue that the church has actually got worse over the last 20 years.  Locally, they are worse on gays, boys get mission calls while they are minors and the change with the girls will result in more 18 year old weddings and girls not finishing their degrees (imo), members who do voice their opinions about the church locally are getting exed or being asked to resign.
 
So what exactly have all these noms who stay in the church to affect change accomplished?  
 
I think this idea is a cover for everything from being to chicken to leave to simply like being mormon or walking around wearing your BYU hat.  That or it's an excercise in self delusion or delusions of grandeur.
 
Now I know people who stay in to help people.  I stayed in to get my wife and kids out.  I understand some noms stay in to help members who are gay or otherwise don't conform.  I respect that a whole hell of a lot.  I know of at least one life that could have maybe been saved if someone from the inside would have stuck with him.
 
But changing the church?  Um, I don't think so. 
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Posted: 23 March 2016 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Neither do I.  If you cause enough ruckus to effect change--you will be Xed.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Lloyd Dobler:
I think there is a BIG difference between what MU is doing, "staying in" because of a loved one and what I think the OP is suggesting and that is to be a non believer whose justification for staying in is to affect change in the church.
 
I have a lot of respect for people who have to still go or keep their names on for marriage and family reasons.  Sometimes, it takes a long time for a strategy to get out to happen. I should know, it took me about 8 years to get free and clear of the church. 
 
But I really don't have a lot of respect for nom types who don't believe but WANT to stay in and use "affecting change from within" as one of their reasons.
 
Affecting change in the church means challenging the authority and holding the church accountable.  You can't do that from the inside.  Sure you can be a member and as a member affect change, Kate Kelly did it.  But to do it you have to engage in outsider behaviors, which eventualy makes you an outsider, excommunicated or not.  In Kate's case, I really do think she affected some change.  Women pray in conference, they sit on the stand and now dudes don't have to go to the stake center to watch priesthood.  So it's change on a general and public level so all the world can see just how progressive the church is.............however to do it, to affect this change, she had to challenge and hold church authority accountable and she got exed.
 
What change happens at the ward and stake level.  I could easily argue that the church has actually got worse over the last 20 years.  Locally, they are worse on gays, boys get mission calls while they are minors and the change with the girls will result in more 18 year old weddings and girls not finishing their degrees (imo), members who do voice their opinions about the church locally are getting exed or being asked to resign.
 
So what exactly have all these noms who stay in the church to affect change accomplished?  
 
I think this idea is a cover for everything from being to chicken to leave to simply like being mormon or walking around wearing your BYU hat.  That or it's an excercise in self delusion or delusions of grandeur.
 
Now I know people who stay in to help people.  I stayed in to get my wife and kids out.  I understand some noms stay in to help members who are gay or otherwise don't conform.  I respect that a whole hell of a lot.  I know of at least one life that could have maybe been saved if someone from the inside would have stuck with him.
 
But changing the church?  Um, I don't think so. 
 
 Loved this! 
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Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2  
Posted: 25 March 2016 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Event details can be found by searching WeEXIST Day on Facebook.

Recently, LDS statements have been made claiming that “homosexuals do not exist."
JOIN US ON APRIL 2 AS WE SHOW THAT YES, WE EXIST!
We live. We breathe. We exist. Come join us in downtown Salt Lake City as friends and allies. Let's show our rainbow colors.
ENJOY THE DAY: We will gather together to fill the downtown area and Temple Square with friends, allies, and families to demonstrate that we EXIST and that we are your neighbors, your fellow church members, your family members, your friends, your co-workers and we are real people.
This is not a protest, organized assembly or rally. Begin gathering in the downtown area at 10-11 AM. Wear rainbow colors as you prefer, or even merely rainbow neckties, scarves, armbands or even just buttons.
Begin to gather towards the Temple Square area at around 11:30 AM to be present on the streets, and in an around Temple Square as the AM Session lets out and people go off to lunch until the 2 PM Session begins. Those of you attending the AM Session will already be there. Our intent is not to confront or protest but to merely be present as real people. Our presence alone will be the message and a powerful reminder all through the day as each attendee cannot avoid seeing many, many people displaying their quiet, dignified solidarity. Long after the impact of the many routine conference talks fade, the memory of the hundreds of rainbow adorned people will remain.
Plan to stay in the area during the LDS conference break. Tour the Mall (but don't buy anything!). Stroll about the downtown area. Tour Temple Square, the Conference Center, the Visitor's Centers, the Joseph Smith Building. Be happy and positive and merely BE, so that others may have a chance to EXIST too!
Remember it will be the sheer number of people and the unavoidable sight of quiet, happy and positive rainbow allies that will leave an idelible impression. That's why we need YOU to be there, and your families and friends!
Warmly greet your friends and allies! If you wish, kindly introduce yourselves to conference goers and remind them that we EXIST!
A reminder that any evidence of an organized march or protest, either as a group or individually, may be characterized as a protest and you may expect to be asked to leave. Therefore please do not bring signs or confront anyone or preach in any way.
FINALLY at the end of the Conference break please JOIN US for lunch and socializing. Beginning at 2 PM and anytime until 4 PM please join us at 50 West Cafe, on 300 South and West Temple (about a block and a half south of City Creek Center). We have reserved room seating for 200+ and we are welcome to order lunch and drinks (on our own) from the menu for as long as we like (Many Thanks to 50 West Cafe for the support!)
After a long day of adventure we will want to share stories, meet up, and give each other some love and support. We can't wait to see you there!
This will be a great way to wind up the day, share friendship and camaraderie and reflect on the work ahead. We can't wait to see you there!
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An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class  
Posted: 17 March 2016 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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As High School Freshman we studied Greek Mythology.  I was given an assignment to write a myth, creating a supernatural explanation for some phenomenon, and creating some "diety" connected to the explanation. We had to match the form and style of the time, and include all the elements of a typical Greek Myth.
 
I did a great job explaining "Baldness" and invented the God Baldes. I got an A+ and was made an example by the teacher.  I was proud.
 
Then it occured to me:
 
To the Greeks, it wasn't Mythology (fiction), it was religion (truth).  And I had just done a stellar job of creating some of it from my imagination.  
 
Obviously, if I could do it, well certainly others could and have.
 
Over the next year, my outlook on scriptures of all kinds became circumspect. Who actually wrote this stuff? I wondered in a thousand years if they will be teaching "Bible Mythology" in every literature class.  Will the Book of Mormon sit on a shelf next to Harry Potter?
 
My English Teacher, Miss McGee, didn't know she was teaching religion, or maybe she did. 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 17 March 2016 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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 If you still have that you should post it.Sounds kind of fun. The God of baldness is a vengeful God a bringer of truth and a taker of hair
 


   


Posted: 17 March 2016 07:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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So where did religion come from? If you discount biblical creationism, there was no Eden, no Adam and Eve, no talking snake and so on. The first Homo Sapiens, the first sapient beings, would have had no notion of God. They would not have been given a new name with a token, sign and penalty before getting their asses kicked out of the garden. The first Homo Sapiens would have been atheists (although they wouldn't have defined themselves as such and wouldn't have known know one way or the other), and would have had to invent the concept of god, a creator, a supreme being. That's why so many cultures have totally differing creation myths. If multiple cultures carry similar myths, it does not point to the truth of biblical creationism, but rather suggests that these cultures all came from the same place, or that they adopted another culture's myths, much as the Hebrews "borrowed" their creation myth from their Babylonian captors.
 
I have often thought about our early progenitors. What must they have thought when they saw clouds? How did they react when they first experienced snow? On a deeper level, how did they explain their existence? How did they explain the unexplainable?
 
I believe one of the mechanisms used to "explain" these things was the invention of deity. Almost every culture has its own creation myths and to outsiders, one is just as absurd as the next. Some have a naïve charm to them, some are very complex, but the one thing they have in common is they are just attempts to make sense out of basic questions.
 
In some cultures, they came up with many gods; gods of thunder, rain, snow, fire and so forth. Some even came up with gods for mischief, fortune, fertility and such. The Hindus were very adept, coming up with some 33 million gods. The Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) came up with one god. When we look at all the gods and the myths, they run the gamut from the ridiculous to the sublime.
 
In our culture, which is largely dominated by Abrahamic tradition, we have but one god, but fantastical stories of talking snakes, great floods, talking donkeys, people rising from the dead and towers to heaven and languages being changed. To an outsider these may seem absurd, yet someone who has been raised and schooled in these things may be loath to question the veracity of these stories.
 
I wonder if one was raised to adulthood completely sheltered from the concept of religion or deity, and also from the concept of atheism, and then was presented with both options, which way would they choose? Would they see myths of creationism as absurd? Would the concept of intelligent design appeal to them? 
 
If an entire group were to be raised under similar conditions, would they collectively come up with something? What if they weren't introduced to religion or atheism, but were asked to explain their existence, would they already have an answer? Would it be something which had never occurred to them?
 
It's certainly a lot to think about!  
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Posted: 17 March 2016 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I was thinking about one of my junior high assignments this week -- some kind of creative writing thing. I invented a chapter or two of scripture. It didn't take long, and it sounded real. It scared the teacher so much, she warned me that I was doing something very dangerous.
 
I laughed it off as a TBM teen, but now I realize how easily one can invent scripture from "whole cloth" and make it sound legitimate. So easy, a simple farm boy could do it...
 
 
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Posted: 17 March 2016 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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LostInParadise:
I was thinking about one of my junior high assignments this week -- some kind of creative writing thing. I invented a chapter or two of scripture. It didn't take long, and it sounded real. It scared the teacher so much, she warned me that I was doing something very dangerous.
 
I laughed it off as a TBM teen, but now I realize how easily one can invent scripture from "whole cloth" and make it sound legitimate. So easy, a simple farm boy could do it...

 
 



   


Posted: 17 March 2016 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Matter Unorganized:
So where did religion come from? If you discount biblical creationism, there was no Eden, no Adam and Eve, no talking snake and so on. The first Homo Sapiens, the first sapient beings, would have had no notion of God. They would not have been given a new name with a token, sign and penalty before getting their asses kicked out of the garden. The first Homo Sapiens would have been atheists (although they wouldn't have defined themselves as such and wouldn't have known know one way or the other), and would have had to invent the concept of god, a creator, a supreme being. That's why so many cultures have totally differing creation myths. If multiple cultures carry similar myths, it does not point to the truth of biblical creationism, but rather suggests that these cultures all came from the same place, or that they adopted another culture's myths, much as the Hebrews "borrowed" their creation myth from their Babylonian captors.
 
I have often thought about our early progenitors. What must they have thought when they saw clouds? How did they react when they first experienced snow? On a deeper level, how did they explain their existence? How did they explain the unexplainable?
 
I believe one of the mechanisms used to "explain" these things was the invention of deity. Almost every culture has its own creation myths and to outsiders, one is just as absurd as the next. Some have a naïve charm to them, some are very complex, but the one thing they have in common is they are just attempts to make sense out of basic questions.
 
In some cultures, they came up with many gods; gods of thunder, rain, snow, fire and so forth. Some even came up with gods for mischief, fortune, fertility and such. The Hindus were very adept, coming up with some 33 million gods. The Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) came up with one god. When we look at all the gods and the myths, they run the gamut from the ridiculous to the sublime.
 
In our culture, which is largely dominated by Abrahamic tradition, we have but one god, but fantastical stories of talking snakes, great floods, talking donkeys, people rising from the dead and towers to heaven and languages being changed. To an outsider these may seem absurd, yet someone who has been raised and schooled in these things may be loath to question the veracity of these stories.
 
I wonder if one was raised to adulthood completely sheltered from the concept of religion or deity, and also from the concept of atheism, and then was presented with both options, which way would they choose? Would they see myths of creationism as absurd? Would the concept of intelligent design appeal to them? 
 
If an entire group were to be raised under similar conditions, would they collectively come up with something? What if they weren't introduced to religion or atheism, but were asked to explain their existence, would they already have an answer? Would it be something which had never occurred to them?
 
It's certainly a lot to think about!  


The Abramic religions are especially violent and have caused many deaths.  I suppose religions that incorporated human sacrifice were more violent but the Abramic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have probably caused more deaths--and...still counting today--than other religions. 
 
Justifying Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son has caused many a mother to give her blessing to a son becoming a suicide bomber, parents agreeing to their young daughters being raped in the guise of plural marriage and women accepting polygamy.  The example of Abraham's sacrifice was used mightily to persuade early LDS women to accept their husbands taking other wives.  In my opinion, the story of Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son is a horrible story--a horrible tool for promoting abuse and it has nothing to do with a god of love.  And if there is a god--good energy or whatever--who wants any part of him/her/it--if that god is not a god of love?  If not--than many humans would make a better god.
 
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 17 March 2016 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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"In my opinion, the story of Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son is a horrible story--a horrible tool for promoting abuse and it has nothing to do with a god of love." So, Who really wrote the story and why? An inspired Prophet? A power-hungry cult leader? A High Shool Freshman? A novelist on Acid? 

   


Posted: 17 March 2016 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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peace out:
 If you still have that you should post it.Sounds kind of fun. The God of baldness is a vengeful God a bringer of truth and a taker of hair
 
 
 Here's the real irony:
 
 I explained baldness by the God Baldes bestowing extraordinary intelligence on certain men.  The increase size of their brain, left no room hair roots. So Baldness was a side effect of a gift of intelligence and wisdom from the God Baldes.
 
 I concocted this out of respect for my bald father, a very smart mathmetician.
 
Ironically, it was this project that taught me that the life-defining religion of this "smart" man could be a bunch of phony nonsense just as baseless as my myth. 


   


Posted: 17 March 2016 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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leftasteen:
"In my opinion, the story of Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son is a horrible story--a horrible tool for promoting abuse and it has nothing to do with a god of love." So, Who really wrote the story and why? An inspired Prophet? A power-hungry cult leader? A High Shool Freshman? A novelist on Acid?
I wish we knew.  Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the Jewish people.  They are some of the smartest people on the planet but you have to admit, that story served them well.  Due to Abraham's willingness to kill his son, they inherited the prime land of the area and a lot of other benefits.  Christianity bought the story--hook, line and sinker.  They think they have a responsibility to protect the Jewish people all because of father Abraham.  The story has served the Islam religion as well--as far as manipulating the people--causing mothers to give their sons as suicide bombers, daughters to be molested.  Then...there is Joseph Smith, the FLDS and some renegade abusers who have all been able to better manipulate their victims by telling them they needed to put everything on the alter--Like Abraham did--their children, money, wives, husbands.  This story was used by an abuser on my trusting mother to gain access to her innocent children.  If this story had not be ringing in her ears--since childhood--he might never have succeeded. Yes--horrible story and horrible tool and one I am taking a stand against. 
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 18 March 2016 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
peace out
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leftasteen:
peace out:
 If you still have that you should post it.Sounds kind of fun. The God of baldness is a vengeful God a bringer of truth and a taker of hair
 
 
 Here's the real irony:
 
 I explained baldness by the God Baldes bestowing extraordinary intelligence on certain men.  The increase size of their brain, left no room hair roots. So Baldness was a side effect of a gift of intelligence and wisdom from the God Baldes.
 
 I concocted this out of respect for my bald father, a very smart mathmetician.
 
Ironically, it was this project that taught me that the life-defining religion of this "smart" man could be a bunch of phony nonsense just as baseless as my myth. 
 
Too funny if I was more Mormon I would have said that was the spirit back in the day. Actually I was referring to the knowledge you gained about scripture and myth rather than your dads brain power, so no lost car keys for me. My dad was also bald and quite a talented artist. I myself retained my hair, mostly anyway and have no great artistic talent yet discovered. Maybe you are on to something .
 


   


Posted: 18 March 2016 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Matter Unorganized:
So where did religion come from? If you discount biblical creationism, there was no Eden, no Adam and Eve, no talking snake and so on. The first Homo Sapiens, the first sapient beings, would have had no notion of God. They would not have been given a new name with a token, sign and penalty before getting their asses kicked out of the garden. The first Homo Sapiens would have been atheists (although they wouldn't have defined themselves as such and wouldn't have known know one way or the other), and would have had to invent the concept of god, a creator, a supreme being. That's why so many cultures have totally differing creation myths. If multiple cultures carry similar myths, it does not point to the truth of biblical creationism, but rather suggests that these cultures all came from the same place, or that they adopted another culture's myths, much as the Hebrews "borrowed" their creation myth from their Babylonian captors.
 
I have often thought about our early progenitors. What must they have thought when they saw clouds? How did they react when they first experienced snow? On a deeper level, how did they explain their existence? How did they explain the unexplainable?
 
I believe one of the mechanisms used to "explain" these things was the invention of deity. Almost every culture has its own creation myths and to outsiders, one is just as absurd as the next. Some have a naïve charm to them, some are very complex, but the one thing they have in common is they are just attempts to make sense out of basic questions.
 
In some cultures, they came up with many gods; gods of thunder, rain, snow, fire and so forth. Some even came up with gods for mischief, fortune, fertility and such. The Hindus were very adept, coming up with some 33 million gods. The Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) came up with one god. When we look at all the gods and the myths, they run the gamut from the ridiculous to the sublime.
 
In our culture, which is largely dominated by Abrahamic tradition, we have but one god, but fantastical stories of talking snakes, great floods, talking donkeys, people rising from the dead and towers to heaven and languages being changed. To an outsider these may seem absurd, yet someone who has been raised and schooled in these things may be loath to question the veracity of these stories.
 
I wonder if one was raised to adulthood completely sheltered from the concept of religion or deity, and also from the concept of atheism, and then was presented with both options, which way would they choose? Would they see myths of creationism as absurd? Would the concept of intelligent design appeal to them? 
 
If an entire group were to be raised under similar conditions, would they collectively come up with something? What if they weren't introduced to religion or atheism, but were asked to explain their existence, would they already have an answer? Would it be something which had never occurred to them?
 
It's certainly a lot to think about!  
 Hi MU, Mankind, before what we know as science, did not make a great distinction between dream life and waking life.  They gave equal importance to all states of consciousness. Talking snakes and the like exist in the "mind"  man's imagination.  Giving equal weight to altered states makes these people appear ignorant.  Just like us, they used their imaginations and dream life to get answers and ideas. In point of fact, science owes a great deal to mankind's imagination with out which scientific inquiry is impossible. 
 


   


Posted: 18 March 2016 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition:
<snipped my bit>
 Hi MU, Mankind, before what we know as science, did not make a great distinction between dream life and waking life.  They gave equal importance to all states of consciousness. Talking snakes and the like exist in the "mind"  man's imagination.  Giving equal weight to altered states makes these people appear ignorant.  Just like us, they used their imaginations and dream life to get answers and ideas. In point of fact, science owes a great deal to mankind's imagination with out which scientific inquiry is impossible. 
 
 
Interesting. But later humanity, who were able to distinguish between dream and waking, still hung on to the talking snake. The talking snake would still be an answer from dream life, but most adherents to the Abrahamic religions take it literally, as if it happened in the waking state. 
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Posted: 19 March 2016 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Brother of Jared
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Matter Unorganized:
So where did religion come from? 
 
 MU asks a question that has facinated me ever since I realized I had no religion. An answer I like (because it makes sense to me) is here:
 
http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Religion/faithfaq.html
 
" . . . Again, it made me realize how perfectly natural religion is. We have a religious module in our brains, and with little kids you can actually watch it waking up and developing, like their speech or social habits. The paradox is, that to the degree that you see religion as natural, to the same degree it becomes harder to see it (and by extension its claims) as supernatural."
 
This naturally leads to a second question: Why do we have this religious module? I can speculate, but would enjoy hearing from someone who has thought about social evolution more than I have.
 
Could it be a group (versus individual) survival  technique to grease the skids of small tribal group social interaction? Something to keep young men in line? Brigham Young was counting on that when he bragged he could attract more young women than young men could. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:211 (JournalOfDiscourses.com))  Otherwise some young guy would have knocked him on his fat 70 year old butt when BY made advances on his girl friend.


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Brother of Jared:
Matter Unorganized:
So where did religion come from? 
 
 MU asks a question that has facinated me ever since I realized I had no religion. An answer I like (because it makes sense to me) is here:
 
http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Religion/faithfaq.html
 
" . . . Again, it made me realize how perfectly natural religion is. We have a religious module in our brains, and with little kids you can actually watch it waking up and developing, like their speech or social habits. The paradox is, that to the degree that you see religion as natural, to the same degree it becomes harder to see it (and by extension its claims) as supernatural."
 
This naturally leads to a second question: Why do we have this religious module? I can speculate, but would enjoy hearing from someone who has thought about social evolution more than I have.
 
Could it be a group (versus individual) survival  technique to grease the skids of small tribal group social interaction? Something to keep young men in line? Brigham Young was counting on that when he bragged he could attract more young women than young men could. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:211 (JournalOfDiscourses.com))  Otherwise some young guy would have knocked him on his fat 70 year old butt when BY made advances on his girl friend.
 
 Perhaps that religion module is because there is an energy bank and an information bank in the universe.  Both of which we can connect to and gain information--as the highly evolved part of the universe--which we are.  Tesla thought so.  I believe Einstein thought so too.  Perhaps made up religions have been hijacking our transmitters and receivers--which they have no right to.  Just wondering. 
 
 
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 22 March 2016 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Always kinda thought that in a cave somewhere, a few hunters brought back some interesting weeds...threw them in the fire for warmth...and voila....instant religious hallucinations...for everyone.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 23 March 2016 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Tessa:
Always kinda thought that in a cave somewhere, a few hunters brought back some interesting weeds...threw them in the fire for warmth...and voila....instant religious hallucinations...for everyone.
 
Strong Free & Thankful:
Perhaps that religion module is because there is an energy bank and an information bank in the universe.  Both of which we can connect to and gain information--as the highly evolved part of the universe--which we are.  Tesla thought so.  I believe Einstein thought so too.  Perhaps made up religions have been hijacking our transmitters and receivers--which they have no right to.  Just wondering. 
 
I'm pretty sure these two points completely answer the question of where religion came from!
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Posted: 24 March 2016 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Matter Unorganized:
son of perdition:
<snipped my bit>
 Hi MU, Mankind, before what we know as science, did not make a great distinction between dream life and waking life.  They gave equal importance to all states of consciousness. Talking snakes and the like exist in the "mind"  man's imagination.  Giving equal weight to altered states makes these people appear ignorant.  Just like us, they used their imaginations and dream life to get answers and ideas. In point of fact, science owes a great deal to mankind's imagination with out which scientific inquiry is impossible. 
 
 
Interesting. But later humanity, who were able to distinguish between dream and waking, still hung on to the talking snake. The talking snake would still be an answer from dream life, but most adherents to the Abrahamic religions take it literally, as if it happened in the waking state. 
 
 Dreaming and waking states overlap.  What religion refers to as having a "vision" is  dubbed by science a "waking dream".  In a waking dream one is both conscious of their waking state and dream state simultaneously.  This state may also be refered to as a halluncination of which there are various types.  These states can be induced chemically, by meditation, sleep, magnetic fields and sometimes they just happen. The ancients took these mental states seriously.  Talking snakes are alive in our consciousness'.  When one is in an altered state talking to a real live snake becomes possible.  Science doesn't take this seriously because the voice of the snake manifests as an inner voice. "Mental Telepathy."  
 
The bible is mythology.  Mythologies are stories of the mind. They speak to our inner experience but inner experience spills over in to waking life.  The point is. that one is living two lives simultaneously.  An inner dream life and an outer waking life.  The two cannot be completely seperated. 


   


Posted: 25 March 2016 09:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Brother of Jared
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Strong Free & Thankful:
 
 Perhaps that religion module is because there is an energy bank and an information bank in the universe.  Both of which we can connect to and gain information--as the highly evolved part of the universe--which we are.  Tesla thought so.  I believe Einstein thought so too.  Perhaps made up religions have been hijacking our transmitters and receivers--which they have no right to.  Just wondering. 
 
 
 
 
 Thank you, SF&T. I agree that made-up religions are created by con men who, as sociopaths, recognize human traits they exploit for their own gain. They even fool themselves, as this hilarious video shows a self-deluded con man running face first into reality.  Too bad all such people can't face their delusions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll7M289-Tlk


   


            
 
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