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I just found out about this District Overseer in Quebec that got DF'd
by Quarterback 18 hours ago 15 Replies latest 6 hours ago   jw friends
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Quarterback
Quarterback 18 hours ago

He sure was well known, and apparently he left his wife some time ago. His initials were M.L.
Does anyone know about this?
 +1 / -0
NVR2L8
NVR2L8 17 hours ago
It may be old news. If he's the one I know, it's been decades, he was reinstated and made a living selling Melaleuca supplements. He died 8 or 9 years ago.
 +1 / -0
breezy
breezy 16 hours ago
I'm from montreal, actually surprised to read this. The initials don't tell me anything though
 
prologos
prologos 16 hours ago
The initials stand for Michel Laliberte', he is gone, RIP, not resurrected as one of the anointed, a little ball of fire that was instrumental in building the unique MTL assembly hall. did not know about the disfellowshipping, the sales, but his former wife is still her dignified self at last count.
 +1 / -0
NVR2L8
NVR2L8 16 hours ago

This district overseer was in charge of the construction of the assembly hall in Pointe aux Trembles...
Just read prologos' post...
 +1 / -0
zeb
zeb 16 hours ago
whats with melaleuca stuff. jw here were selling that when they had made no retirement provisions so they could pay the bills. who own the M company?
 +1 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 16 hours ago
He sure was effective in Hall
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 16 hours ago
Breezy: I'm a Montrealer as well. Are you going to attend the memorial? I think I might just to see if I can encourage some JWs to pay me a visit.
 +1 / -0
Richard_I
Richard_I 15 hours ago
too bad it wasn't Wayne Johnson. now THAT would be interesting.

 
Captain Schmideo2
Captain Schmideo2 15 hours ago

Melaleuca, Legal Insurance, Premier Telecom Long Distance, Amway, Cookware, the list goes on of bullsheet scams and MLM's that the average igmo JW will fall for when they can't do anything else that makes decent wages.
 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos 14 hours ago
I am surprised that a figure like M. Laliberte' or J.G. Trembley had to do anything to live normal lives after their exodus. that nulligies the stories about the green handshakes. There is also family money involved. but, the taller they are, the harder they fall. Thinking of Laurier Saumur too, who worked their guts out, no holds barred for WT Inc.,--sinking into poverty?
 +1 / -0
hoser
hoser 13 hours ago
I haven't heard much good about Wayne Johnson.
 
Landy
Landy 9 hours ago
There was a DO in North Yorks who got DF'd years ago. Eloped with a pioneer iirc. Married the pioneer, was reinstated and became an elder again. I would imagine he's passed away by now as well.

 +1 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 6 hours ago
Landy, do you mean Doug T? A nasty piece of work if ever there was one.
 
Landy
Landy 6 hours ago
Certainly do. And yes he is/was. He was PO in his congregation and he ruled it as a dictatorship. All sorts of weird shit, sitting down to sing the songs rings a bell. This was late 80s.

 +1 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 6 hours ago
doug is ooold news lol. quite a lot of UK members remembered him.
 

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Interesting article about the evidence of the Jewish Exodus
by cappytan 7 hours ago 7 Replies latest 3 hours ago   jw friends
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cappytan
cappytan 7 hours ago

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists. It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.
Read more here
 
KateWild
KateWild 7 hours ago

I have heard this about the Exodus a few times.
To be fair......when did you stop believing that the sea parted. Miracles don't really hold much weight in the Bible.
Kate xx
 
ttdtt
ttdtt 6 hours ago

Its funny. No group is more interested in finding evidence than the Jews themselves. Jewish archaeologist have been searching for the smallest shred of evidence for many decades, with NO results. You can't find evidence of something that didn't happen.
Anyway - you don't need to look for jewish footprints in the sand actually.
I have mentioned this before. What happened that lead to their leaving?
1. The world superpower (egypt) just lost all of it's first borns.
2. Then millions of its slaves (the ones responsible for all food production, building, all work really) just up and left.
3. Then the ENTIRE Egyptian army is killed at once.
4. The Pharaoh is also killed.
All of this happens, and somehow the surrounding nations decide to cut Egypt some slack and don't go in and take it over, or at least steal all their gold and women? Really?
Not one nation mentions this grand catastrophe in their history?
The next Pharaoh doesn't talk about how he restored the country to greatness? (by the way history does not show any lull during that time.
How long would it take for Egypt to overcome the loss of all their 1st borns (what knowledge skills and breading power would they lose with that).
How long would it take to recover from losing your ENTIRE Army and ALL your war implements?
Looking for Jewish footprints from the exodus is a trivial thing compared to the missing mountain of evidence about the fall of Egypt.
 +4 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 5 hours ago
like 99.9% of the rest of the fables from the so called "word of god" another fraudulent lie
 +3 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 5 hours ago
Funny thing, on one of the jw bible tours at the metropolitan museum of modern art, in the Egypt section they point to a broken piece of pottery. Probably smalled than a silver dollar. With a small man on it with a beard. They said this was evidence of Hebrews in Egypt, they quote the scripture about the rocks crying out and acknowledge how there is virtually no evidence but the big J was using this pottery as proo . Then everyone oood and awwwd. I had to take family and friends on these tours several times. I always found them amazing. Now I just see how the witnesses twisted actually archeology and history to fit their ideas of truth. So sad.
 +4 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 5 hours ago

freemindfade - how crazy is that.
How intellectually dishonest is it. How conditioned were we all to just accept what ever crap was told us without question.
We had people from our hall do the tour. I think they could have walked out side the museum and shown them a old dog crap and said - "see this is from the jewish Exodus, this crap is from moses." and they would take pictures to show everyone back home.
As for Rocks Crying Out.
If JW really loved the people in the world, and wanted them saved, they would all STOP preaching - and let the Rocks Cry Out! People would then become JWs without question.
Having a Rock talk to you is much more convincing than an uneducated cult follower with a flyer.
 +2 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 4 hours ago
Furthermore, there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of Pharoah's army (armour, weapons, chariots) etc. at the bottom of the Red Sea!
 +4 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 3 hours ago

Interesting point by Divergent.
If every verse of the bible is correct, and to be taken literally, there would likely be ample evidence of Pharoah's army at the bottom of the Red Sea.
 +2 / -0

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/ Gross! Grooming of young brothers in the KH to do more for Jehobadahhh and his organ-nigh-say-shun! I saw it myself.
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Gross! Grooming of young brothers in the KH to do more for Jehobadahhh and his organ-nigh-say-shun! I saw it myself.
by macys 3 hours ago 14 Replies latest 7 minutes ago   jw friends
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macys
macys 3 hours ago
So there is this young brother probably 14 or 15 and the elders are already grooming him to do more for Jehobadahhh. Most of the elders in this KH are old like 60+ and sometimes there are not enough brothers to do the mics or sound so you will see a 70 year old elder forced into action. Almost comical to see a brother who thinks Instagram is an email service try to operate the sound system and projector as he plays the wrong song or brings the screen down during a prayer. So now they seem to really be pushing this young kid to do more and on Sunday I overheard this one elder speaking to him trying to get him to come earlier so he can prepare to be an elder someday. Honestly I think this elder is a pedo. Us girls just know these things but whatevs. Anyways it just pisses me off to see this. The kid obviously does not want to do anything but is forced to cause of his parents and now he has the elders on him to do more for them. I hope he wakes up and moves out before he has to do anything.

 
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 2 hours ago

LOL, an elder said once that JW.ORG is only an email-adress.
I hate to operate the soundsystem. Early sunday, you be tired from the night before and miss to turn up the mic.
But I think there is also the good point: a stupid elder try to give you work but never talk to you in an other way. So you see very early, that the main part is work not friendship. And the elders can't talk to you as a friend. They talk to you in a friendly way like a boss.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 hours ago

When your gender's in very, very short supply and the current body of elders are literally older men, you gotta grab the young 'uns before they slip away.
BTW, while I agree with the OP, the hunch about an elder being a 'pedo' is a cheap shot.
 +1 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 2 hours ago

crazy_flickering_light:
And the elders can't talk to you as a friend. They talk to you in a friendly way like a boss.
Friendly? Not always. But I strongly agree that it is almost impossible to be close friends with elders, unless you are on the same level as them. Many elders have a superiority complex which arises from the elevated position of authority that they have, which translates into their treating the rest of the flock as lesser ones who are inferior to them. Many of the elders in my cong are critical & judgemental. I never was able to count any elder as a close friend thoughout my time as a JW. Not a single one!
 
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 2 hours ago
I also think, sometimes they try to sound like a friend, but they can't. Mostly only as a boss. But this is logical in my opinion. If you for example a windowcleaner and later the day can act like a big boss - you know what happens. Little minds afraid of others. But if it's your daily business to work with people, maybe be a boss, then the most know how to handle people and look that they get better. But in most cases only the windowcleaner get an elder. Until they don't change the stay-stupid-and-obey-rule, until this point there will be no change. This is also a reason that a lot of congs run inefficient, the elders not able to analize a workflow and optimize it. I should support one and it was so silly. After I change some points we reduce nearly 3/4 of the time. (After that I kicked and a MS make a big show with my work.)
 
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 2 hours ago

Instagram is an email service
It is, isn't it??
 
macys
macys 2 hours ago
Hi Steve trust a girl's instinct about this. That dude is a creep. He stares a certain way that gives me the chills.

 
Kick50r
Kick50r an hour ago

Happens daily. As most boys at the time we all been there .Good thing I always smiled and waved and completely ignored them.
I just think the observation " I think this elder is a pedo. Us girls just know these things " just discredits your OP .
Take Care
 
WingCommander
WingCommander an hour ago
Nice to see you back gurl! Still livin' the care-free life? Damn I wish I were your age.

 
TheListener
TheListener an hour ago
I agree with most of the OP but not the part about the elder being a pedo. That's not fair to say. Macys I read your bio and you have been through a lot, I'm really sorry that you lost your family and I am glad you are in a supportive place now.
 
Simon
Simon an hour ago

macys: So it's OK to judge someone on appearance and make serious accusations just because you think your gender has some special psychic ability?
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange an hour ago

Hopefully he will fly the coop by the time he is 18. Vast majority of JW kids don't stay.
Doc

 
ttdtt
ttdtt 25 minutes ago

macys - can you get your facts strait!!


It's pronunciated Je-Ho-Ber !!
 
Island Man
Island Man 17 minutes ago


It's pronunciated Je-Ho-Ber !!
Yeah, Macys! And for your information it's not "organ-nigh-say-shun". It's "organized-to-shun"!

 
closed
closed 7 minutes ago

Flimsy prospects if young ones don't want to invest in the org.
btw crazy f light. It's not only elders compensating for lack of career making the mess. I know very well an intelligent, well organized elder who is big fish in business and he brings in corpo methods. I have never seen before an elder blackmailing other elders, giving privileges for bom licking, letting immortal ( by jw) in because they are pals children. Rotten to the very core. So there are all sorts.
 

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Words omitted from a Watchtower article
by Doug Mason 6 hours ago 5 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower bible
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Doug Mason
Doug Mason 6 hours ago

Hi,
A short time ago I sought information regarding a quotation in The Watchtower of April 1, 2010, which did not identify the exact source of the quotation from Professor Oskar Skarsaune. My interest was heightened because words had been omitted from the source.
The WTS provided a copy of the original 29-page article, which is in Norwegian.
Here is my very unofficial personal translation of the passage from Professor Skarsaune's article that the Watchtower is quoting. Firstly I provide the text as it appears in the Watchtower magazine, highlighting where the text has been omitted. I then provide my unofficial translation, which corresponds with a translation done independently for me by a non-Norwegian friend. I have formatted the text to make it easier to see the text that has been omitted.
Read the remaining context of the Watchtower article.
Doug
------------------------
The Watchtower: April 1, 2010, pages 27-28
Note what Professor of Church History Oskar Skarsaune states:
“Which writings that were to be included in the New Testament, and which were not, was never decided upon by any church council or by any single person
…
The criteria were quite open and very sensible: Writings from the first century C.E. that were regarded as written by apostles or by their fellow workers were regarded as reliable. Other writings, letters, or ‘gospels’ that were written later were not included
…
This process was essentially completed a long time before Constantine and a long time before his church of power had been established. It was the church of martyrs, not the church of power, that gave us the New Testament.”
-------------------------
Translation using online resources by Doug Mason of the article by Professor Skarsaune,'Den mest rystende aysloringen de siste 2000 arene': Fra Da Vinci-koden til Den Hellige Gral", page 23
Which writings were to be included in the New Testament, and which were not, was never passed by any church fashion or by any individual,

but was the result of a process in which many churches in all parts of the church were involved, and where the selection

criteria were completely open and actually very sensible: Writings from the first century AD, which was considered authored by apostles or their employees were regarded as credible. Other writings, letters, or ‘gospels’ that were written later were not included,
whether they agreed with the New Testament writings in content or not.
This process was essentially completed long before Constantine, and long before his “power church” was established. It was the martyr Church, not the power church, which gave us the New Testament.
And the Martyr Church had no central power authority which could eradicate and suppress alternative fonts.
 +2 / -0
Terry
Terry 6 hours ago

Thank you, Doug. My grandmother, who had been raised Catholic, use to tell me about sins of omission and sins of commission. The policy of selective support narratives (partial quoting of sources) is an unusual hybrid sin, isn't it :smile:
The most evident demonstration of a scholastic inferiority complex by the Watchtower's elite core of 'channelers' is their quote mining.
It is habit (a bad one) developed before the age of the internet which I would compare to the Catholic Church's use of Latin in the Mass.
Now that anything can be investigated by an armchair sleuth, the curtain is pulled back and the light of day floods in.
 +3 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 6 hours ago

This is SOP for the WT. I don't understand how the people writing the articles can do this?
This is one I picked up as soon as I read it. Sounded fishy. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/watchtower-again-misquotes-scientist-to-argue-against-evolution-and-this-time-its-personal
Anytime you read something that deals with science in a WT it will be BS.
 +3 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 an hour ago
Reading the original, unedited quotes, I find it difficult to comprehend the reasoning behind omitting those other words. It doesn't really affect too much what he wrote, and I see no good reason for even omitting them. I guess they are so used to doing it at this point that it probably feels weird for them NOT to omit words from quotes, even if it doesn't affect the point they are trying to make.
 
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 an hour ago

Actually, Tim, the words
"but was the result of a process in which many churches in all parts of the church were involved, and where the selection"
Completely change the meaning of the quote from the WT's viewpoint. The WT wants it to seem like there was no "Catholic" or central church that decided upon the NT canon, but the reality is that there was. It was "the church" as a whole that decided the canon, an already existing entity.
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt an hour ago

Yes ILoveTTATT2
2 minutes ago

In reality - the same people who decided in the TRINITY decided the Cannon.
The Catholic church is responsible for both those, as well as spreading the good news of the kingdom and Jesus to the world. Sorry JWs - the Catholic are the ones who made it known to the ends of the earth, not JWs.
JWs only have any success (very small in reality) in countries where the CC already brought christianity.
 +1 / -0

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How much is the Bethel allowance now? It used to be $14!
by Maryo 20 hours ago 22 Replies latest 33 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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Maryo
Maryo 20 hours ago
I am wondering how much the Bethel "allowance" is now? It used to be $14! Is it true they really sign a vow of proverty now?
 
fulano
fulano 20 hours ago
Which country ?
 
Maryo
Maryo 20 hours ago
United States. It used to be $14 a month years ago.
 
wannaexit
wannaexit 19 hours ago
In Canada its 150.00 dollars . I heard it from an exbethelite .
 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 19 hours ago

We know it's below minimum wage, $7.25 an hr. WOW ! Jehovah is cheap. I believe the
Bible states, "money is a protection". I guess a vow of poverty is not destitution in their eyes,
they do get three meals and bedding each day. In 1966 I received $64.00 a month in the Army.
 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 18 hours ago

In the early '70s my confreres and I received $14 a month, in addition to $6 travel allowance.
The majority of that cash went to buy subway tokens for all the meetings we attended, as well as Saturday and Sunday in service. It seems that we were out every night of the week, too. Meetings, service, shepherding, etc.
CC
 +4 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 18 hours ago
compound complex...Any funds received from family members? How in the hell did you get by???
 +4 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 18 hours ago

Hi, James Mixon:
Thanks for your question.
My family was poor but scraped cash together to fly me from Brooklyn to San Francisco every summer. My better off non-JW g'parents helped. Otherwise, I don't know, other than my well-worn mantra, "Jehovah will provide."
I do recall, as mentioned on this forum once before, that I was asked to show a French brother around the city in my spare time (?!?!?!?!?) and used precious cash doing so. I wondered to myself, just before he left, "Where am I going to get $4 to get through the month?"
Well, as we bade each other a fond farewell on the platform, "Pierre" opened his wallet and remarked in French, "I won't be needing this anymore." He handed me four one-dollar bills.
Sounds corny now, but that was how I got by, over and over again!
Best.
CC
 +5 / -0
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 18 hours ago
Oh, coco, I'll bet you saw that as Jehovah providing?
 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 18 hours ago

I had no idea it was that bad, I had three nephews serve there and not a clue what they
were getting paid.
 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 18 hours ago

GrreatTeacher:
Yes, that was the belief that sustained me since early childhood. I am now attempting to distinguish between what is reality, what is natural, and what is fantasy, supernatural. I doubt I'll ever succeed totally.
What matters, I guess, is that somehow or other we get by, but then there's the question of those true believers who do not get by, whose prayers are not answered.
I have no clue at this point in my life what's truly going on or what really happened.
THANKS!
CC
 +5 / -0
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 17 hours ago

Well, it seems that at least in that particular incident it was Pierre providing!
I find that good things happen to people who do good things.
It's not perfectly proportional; there's no formula, but it seems that the nicer one is to others, the more likely it is that others will want to return the favor. :smile:
 +5 / -0
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 16 hours ago


compound complex , '... He handed me four one-dollar bills....'
The Dollar Bill
The Dollar Bill.....
 Smallest bill of all U.S. currency
 And is still in use currently
 It's worth 100 pennies
 But that is not many
 The dollar can buy you food
 It can change your mood
 For a kid a dollar's a lot
 And can make his sadness stop
 It can buy you a drink
 Or even a sausage link
 It can buy you a pen
 That can be used again and again
 The bill is one out of six other bills
 But yet it is the most common from here to the hills
 People think its worthless
 But they are thoughtless
 There are people who are blind
 But blind in the mind
 To think this bill is nothing
 When it is actually something
 The dollar bill may be common but useful
 In desperate times a dollar is helpful
 When you really need something but have little money
 The dollar bill is there always ready
 The dollar bill deserves more credit
 But instead some forget it
 Never to stop and realize
 That it has been there all our lives
 From when we were young
 To now that we've sprung
 We started with the dollar
 The bill to which we honored
 All we wanted was a measly bill
 A dollar was accepted very well
 But as the years go by, it fades in our minds
 That the dollar bill was always in our mind
 Years went by and we get greedy
 Wanting more and more money, but of greater currency
 20's and 50's is what we want to have
 Even a 100 was clearly not bad
 But the dollar is very unique
 Has no different designs or streaks
 But it's always there for us to see
 It has our backs constantly
 When you are out and see the homeless
 Asking for change and get nothing less
 The dollar is helpful in their time of need
 Hope you don't recognize this in your time of need
 Because you must recognized it now and not later
 For it's ready at your side like a personal waiter
 Ready to take your order, command or direction
 Ready to be used, and ready to jump into action
 It's valuable in certain times
 Just never forget of it's kind
 It's there when you need it, easy to obtain
 Never forget about the Dollar's Bill Reign
 It's Reign is when you need it most
 And like your servant, it's there with you close
 Ready to be used
 Whenever, wherever it is needed to you
 The Dollar Bill Is Most Common
 And Sometimes Forgotten
 But Always Needed
 And Always Wanted
 +2 / -0
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 16 hours ago

Do not be annoying the minimum wage staff at dollar stores
by bringing various items to the counter while you shop and asking.,
'How much is this?'
By the sixth item they start losing their cool and say,
'I already told you. Every item in this store is $1!
'O.K., O.K.', you say. 'Please calm down.'
Five minutes later you bring another item to the counter and ask,
'How much is this?'
 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 16 hours ago

Greetings, Esse quam videri:
What great posts! Many thanks!
When I was a kid, in the '50s, we went to the five and dime and bought a ton of stuff with the four bits (fifty cents) Gramps gave us. And a dollar?
Would need a grocery cart.
I visit the Dollar Tree, which has lots of food for . . . you guessed it! One dollar an item. I bought meat for a week for $6.00!
CC
 +3 / -0
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 16 hours ago

Greetings , compound complex:
When I was young my brother and me got 25 cents allowance every two weeks, when Pops got his pay. Straight to the corner store.
How much are those? ' 3 for a penny'
How much are those? ' 2 for a penny'
How much are those? ' 4 for a penny'
We must have driven the owner crazy.

Then our allowance jumped to 50 cents every two weeks.
She didn't have a chance!

 +5 / -1
Tenacious
Tenacious 15 hours ago
A relative of mine (he's immediate family :wink: yes) told about 5 years ago, his stipend was in the $90s range. Can't really recall the number but he would always call home asking for money.

 +2 / -1
fulano
fulano 12 hours ago
We had a 90$ in 1999, in USA. In missionary-service it was about 70$. And of course your monthly pea.
 +1 / -0
baker
baker 4 hours ago
Any stories of those that resorted to "borrowing"? I have a "friend" that still owes me from 10 years ago
 
Lostandfound
Lostandfound 3 hours ago
Have they had a rise in allowance now that they have to clean,do laundry etc as well as loss of 3 meals a day. I understand different branches changing the meal arrangements according to local situation. Overall a loss of quite a bit of value for no raise apparently.
 

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How much is the Bethel allowance now? It used to be $14!
by Maryo 20 hours ago 22 Replies latest 35 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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TheListener
TheListener an hour ago

Plus if you were at the farm or Patterson you could keep a log and be reimbursed for mileage to and from the kingdom hall. There was also a recommended contribution amount for riding with someone to and from the meetings. Having a beater car could be a real money maker if gas prices were low.
I still have my driving log.
 +1 / -0
respectful_observer
respectful_observer an hour ago
Was just visiting some friends there a few weeks ago and they mentioned they currently get $130(ish) a month. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was right around that number.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 35 minutes ago
what exactly is the situation with their food especially in branches that are not close to any local amenities, can they cook their own? even if the allowance has increased food prices aren't particularly cheap, surely this eats further into their allowance, do local congregations contribute to their food costs?
 

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Topic Summary
i am wondering how much the bethel "allowance" is now?
it used to be $14!
is it true they really sign a vow of proverty now?



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by Dogpatch 5 years ago
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Would you have married your spouse if you weren't both JWs?
by 3rdgen 15 hours ago 39 Replies latest 7 minutes ago   jw friends
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3rdgen
3rdgen 15 hours ago
Ok, I've had some wine, but I'm curious. Objectively speaking, but for the religion, did you have enough in common with your spouse to have met and married as non believers?
 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 15 hours ago

No not really, the pressuring element of sex had been an instigating factor.
Unfortunately ended in divorce a few years later on due to incompatibility.

 +3 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 15 hours ago
Thanks Fink. I'm reflecting at the moment. It's all hypothetical because My parents would NEVER have met nor married if it weren't for the cult so I wouldn't exist. However, I would never have met nor married either of my husbands had we met in a "worldly" setting. So here I am.
 +2 / -0
Cangie
Cangie 15 hours ago
NOOOOOOOO...nonononononononono...no! I actually considered breaking it off with him but an article in the Watchtower had just been printed that said the one who ended an engagement would be df'd for "breaking a covenant with Jehoover." My mother and his were friends and thought we were "evenly yoked"---UGH. It was damned near an arranged marriage. I pulled the "yoke" off about 25 years ago and got a divorce from him since he was an elder (still is) with a nasty temper who was abusive.

 +7 / -2
berrygerry
berrygerry 15 hours ago

I ask myself that very question often.
Our still-in family and friends are all victims.

Only Watch Tower teaches to hate the victim.





 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 14 hours ago

We became JW's to save our marriage, what a mistake.There needs to be a law,
30 years of age before you can wed.
 +6 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 14 hours ago
Cangie, wow the same thing happened to me in 1969. I was only 17 and wanted to end my engagement with my first husband BUT the Watchtower article had just come out about breaking an engagement without fraud involved would be grounds for disfellowshipping. I literally had NO friends or family who weren't JW's and (to top it off) my fiance's father was the congregation servant! I was backed into a corner I didn't know how to escape.
 +5 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 14 hours ago
Berrygerry and James, Jws SAVING a marriage??? Hahaha
 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 14 hours ago
I would have married her, but would she have married me? ???
 +3 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 14 hours ago

BTW, I'm not asking if you love/loved your spouse. I'm asking first: would you have even met?
and if you did would there have been an attraction?
Would you have considered yourself compatible?
 
the girl next door
the girl next door 13 hours ago
I married me Ex Spouse because I had sexual intercourse before marriage with him. I believed by marrying him my sin would be glossed over. Instead what it led to was a 16 year marriage of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. Not until I saw first hand the emotional and physical abuse by him to our daughter did I start to think outside the box. This is a common story for JW women. More and more of us are breaking free.
 +9 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 13 hours ago

Women can be abusive also, I shouldn't have left when she broke a coke bottle on
my head.
 +2 / -0
Heartsafire
Heartsafire 13 hours ago

There is no way on earth my husband would have married me if I wasn't a JW. If we weren't JW's I probably would've married him (the religion thing wasn't a factor for me), but the sad part is that he lied about himself all through our dating. He told me he wanted a family and kids--nope! He said he loves camping and the outdoors--hell no! He claimed he respected women--not a chance! I'm really bitter over my marriage lately. I feel totally duped.
 +4 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 12 hours ago
Like The Girl Next Door I had sex before marriage and felt like I had no option but to get married. I had no idea who I was or what I wanted. Without the pressure of religious expectations I would not have married anyone when I did.
 +2 / -0
FadeToBlack
FadeToBlack 11 hours ago

I would not have met her if we weren't JW's. If we had met as non-JW's, there might have been some physical attraction, but I doubt she would marry me. Looking back, just being JW's and needing a partner, was not a good basis for a marriage. We were both single parents and I thought it would be a win-win. Was I ever wrong!

 +3 / -0
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 11 hours ago
This is a thread I sincerely hope no-one will respond to.
 +0 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard 10 hours ago
no not a chance, I doubt we'd have even met, very little in common, would have had a completely different circle of friends , academically she was very bright, and would have gone on to university and ended up in a decent job, I was just a lowly worker, she often said it as well.
 +1 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 9 hours ago

the girl next door,
I wish you did live next door. lol Getting married to either "legitimately" have sex or out of guilt for already having it is a terrible foundation for marriage. So sorry you and your child suffered abuse but glad you are free now.
James M,
Ouch!! Yes, I know some very abusive women.
Heartsafire,
Yikes! Duped by your religion then your husband. I'm sorry
JW facts,
Yes, you stated one of the points I was trying to make. Religious pressure to take one of the biggest steps in life yet not preparing the followers to make a wise decision about who and when they marry.
Fade,
The fact that you would never have met shows me that you had little in common but the religion. When one or both of you leave the religion you can be left wondering "what if" or worse.
Old hippy,
YOU responded! lol If you mean you hope everyone would have a great marriage despite the influence of the cult I agree. However, this is supposed to be a safe place to vent , share ideas, and hopefully be of encouragement to each other. Some have left a cult but are not free from the effects of the decisions we made under it's influence.
Jookbeard,
I hear ya. Sounds like the marriage is past tense no?
 +1 / -0
sherrie11
sherrie11 9 hours ago

No! I married because I thought that was I needed in order to complete the process of being dedicated to Jehovah! He was nothing like me!
Thank god it was a very brief marriage!
Cult indoctrinated Me!
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 9 hours ago
oh yes 3rdgen, we married in 1990, never thought we would even last a year, we soldiered on for five years divorced in 1995, no kids, I gave her a scriptural divorce she remarried a brother she met in Spain
 

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Would you have married your spouse if you weren't both JWs?
by 3rdgen 15 hours ago 40 Replies latest 5 minutes ago   jw friends
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TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 9 hours ago
Back stabbing a spouse publicly never was something to engage in.
 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 9 hours ago
Meeting my wife was the only good thing about the cult.
 +6 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 9 hours ago

Sherrie,
"I married because I thought that was [what] I needed in order to complete the process of being dedicated to Jehovah!"
Not sure I understand. Can you elaborate?
 
3rdgen
3rdgen 9 hours ago

Cofty,
That is GREAT! Congrats!
Old hippy,
See! There is some good news too. This thread is not about back stabbing anyone. Edited to add : I'm in a reflective mood at the moment and I want to know about the effects of cult influences on people's choices of Who they marry, When, and Why.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 9 hours ago

No we wouldn't have met.
My wife is a good wife. On out wedding night see told me she lay awake watching me sleep and couldn't believe we were married. We have only ever had two/three small disagreements in more than 30 years. No shouting or throwing things.
She commented once that there is no passion.
 +1 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 8 hours ago

Ucan't,
Wow, married 30 years with 2 or 3 small disagreements!?!?! You two should get some kind of prize. Unfortunately, lack of passion could be a factor.
 +2 / -0
Da.Furious
Da.Furious 8 hours ago
Do you mean my wife would have accepted my proposal if both were not JW? No way - she is out of my league! But now we are both on the same page, play the game and keep family away.

 +1 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 8 hours ago

Da,Furious,
You are probably being modest. :smile: So glad you both left and are on the same page.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 4 hours ago

Yes. His personality and mine are very much in sink and compliment each other very well. He is one hell of a looker, to me of course.
I feel very fortunate in this regard.
DY
 +2 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 4 hours ago

@3rdgen 😂😂 put the beer goggles down, ... And step away from the bottle !!!
Just jokin.......drink on !! 😉 cheers
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 hours ago

The JWS religion is just another social environment where males meet females and since its in an environment of trust and a subjective imposed identity placed upon the members, marriages occur, some make it some don't.
What may be surprising to many is that the JWS have the same amount of divorces than non-JWS or worldly people as they refer them to.
The JWS leaders will never honestly admit to that fact/truth though. 
I would say most of that may come to the fact that people are pushed into marriages for sexual reasons, less for compatibility reasons and that they are forced to marry another JWS.
Look at it this way, a single congregation may have only 100 people in it or less, but the single people there have no choice but to marry another JWS.
The facts relate to whom is the right person for one and another is compressed in this kind of environment. 
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 3 hours ago
No
 
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 3 hours ago
Not married, but as for my boyfriend... There's a possibility we would have met even without being JWs. I moved to his area for work and we probably would've eventually met as he seems to have a connection to everyone (popular guy!). I know I still would have been attracted to him :wink: Some things would've been different though for sure. For one, when he was 18, he got DFed and managed to get himself reinstated and when we met, I had a great deal of respect for him because of that. So that aspect would've been gone if we were never JWs. However, I'm grateful to have wound up with someone who woke up not long after me and is helping, encouraging me through this dreadful process. Now, I'm not so sure I could be with a person who didn't have a JW background and who couldn't appreciate the craziness and trauma that the cult inflicts onto people.
 +1 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 2 hours ago

Would you have married your spouse if you weren't both JWs?
Ouch. That is a tough and eye-opening question. We probably would not have married each other. If we weren't witnesses, there would have been more choices and more chances to meet other people.
 +1 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 2 hours ago
For me the decision was based on Armageddon coming shortly within the generation. If I wasn't a raised a JW I wouldn't have had that belief.
 
fulano
fulano an hour ago

THE first thing I did when leaving full-time duty and going to the hall...get rid of that bitch.
My brother divorced and my sister as well.
 
Scully
Scully an hour ago
Were it not for the JWs, Mr Scully and I would never have crossed paths.
 
Xanthippe
Xanthippe an hour ago

Objectively speaking, but for the religion, did you have enough in common with your spouse to have met and married as non believers?
Yes we both liked walking in the countryside. We'd enjoyed similar books as children. We both preferred sci fi on TV to sport. We both gave 100% to whatever we believed in, which was our undoing. Leaving the religion, losing family, friends, our faith and life purpose nearly broke us.
We worked damn hard to make a life afterwards. There were lots of problems along the way, health, financial, but I suppose we leaned on and helped each other and it ended up being a good 27 year marriage. I'm glad I met him and I still miss him.
Here's a funny thing, we got talking when we first met about places we'd been to and it turned out we visited the same holiday village in Wales in the same year, in the same month, two weeks apart.
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 28 minutes ago

No, because we would have never met on that Bethel Tour.
She is the best thing that I have in life as a result of being a JW.
Doc

 
3rdgen
3rdgen 10 minutes ago

Great responses guys!
Doubtfully, How nice that you two are in sync.
Brandnew, It's a new day. Beer goggles down, replaced with my usual rose colored ones.
Fink, Yes the pool of single people at the KH is frequently shallow.
Freemind, Sorry :frowning:
Stephanie, I'm glad you found someone so well suited for you. I totally understand the bonus of your boyfriend understanding the crazy of the cult.
My NIONC, You are realistic. It's a big world outside of the Borg.
YCNme, Harm-a-geddon one of the greatest motivators in Dubland!
Fulano, sorry things didn't work out for you and your sibs.
Scully, It seems it turned out well regardless. Good.
Xan, What a nice story! I can relate about the aftermath of leaving nearly broke you. I'm am feeling very bruised and broken myself.
 

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Topic Summary
ok, i've had some wine, but i'm curious.
objectively speaking, but for the religion, did you have enough in common with your spouse to have met and married as non believers?



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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
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Would you have married your spouse if you weren't both JWs?
by 3rdgen 15 hours ago 40 Replies latest 6 minutes ago   jw friends
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3rdgen
3rdgen 6 minutes ago
DOC, So Bethel actually produced something positive for a change. Yeaaa.
 

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Topic Summary
ok, i've had some wine, but i'm curious.
objectively speaking, but for the religion, did you have enough in common with your spouse to have met and married as non believers?



Related Topics
mtwtf
Misleading The Australian Royal Commission
by mtwtf 7 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 09-20-2015 WT Study (LOYALTY)
by blondie 6 months ago
slimboyfat
How to defeat JWs in 10 easy steps
by slimboyfat 4 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
LAWHFol
My new Religion is The Truth.
by LAWHFol 4 months ago



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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago 11 Replies latest 4 months ago   jw friends
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blondie
blondie 4 months ago

BLONDIE’S highlights FROM the 11-22-2015 WT Study (SEPTEMBER 15, 2015) (JEHOVAH LOVE US)
 
EXCELLENT GENERAL WEBSITE: www.jwfacts.com
 
Bible translations www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible
WT publications  http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/archive.htm (old)
 www.jw.org (new)
WT child abuse www.silentlambs.org
 www.watchtowerdocuments.com/
Blood issue www.ajwrb.org
 http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
United Nations   http://www.randytv.com/secret/unitednations.htm
 
Also posted on
 
www.jehovahs-witness.net
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/
 
IN WHAT WAYS DOES JEHOVAH LOVE US? (1 JOHN 3:1)
 
I always bought the idea that God loved me even if my family didn’t or the people at the KH didn’t or didn’t act like it.
 
Jws = God’s people
God loves you
Then
Jws love you
 
Where is the flaw in that?
 
PP2—So jws don’t believe that God is to be feared and obeyed?
Does the WTS teach that people had to meet conditions re the ransom?
 
(Romans 5:6-11) 6 For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Yet the WTS says that babies executed at the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and Armageddon will die forever, no hope of a resurrection. Where is the love in that?
 
PP3 Adam is a son of God, only anointed jws are considered “sons of God” and all other jws will not be such until the end of the 1,000 year reign. So are the anointed better people?
 
So is God the devoted father who has and will soon kill babies and small children forever?
 
PP4 Yes, jw children that grew up with pedo fathers, pedo elders and MS, people whose sins the WTS have covered up. So since God’s people are doing this, with God’s knowledge, how is God not a father like that?
 
PP5 Does the WTS or jws provide all things necessary for life in imitation of their God? Does the WTS instead encourage them to use secular sources?
 
(James 2:14-17) 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16 yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.
 
PP6 “SCIENTISTS have spent vast amounts of money on space explorations” or governments?
 
PP7 Need more than material possessions….spiritual…but the WTS emphasizes “spiritual” and leaves it up to God to perform miracles or the secular government to provide material needs.
 
PP*8 What about the so-called surrogate fathers at the KH who do not protect the children in the congregation from pedophile members?
 
Or the non-jw children the WTS say should like to their parents about studying with jws and sneaking out to go to jw meetings?
 
PP9 Is God’s name Jehovah, Yahweh, or neither, unknown. The God with the power to create the universe, cannot protect his real name? And, why are jws rarely if ever encouraged to have a close, personal relationship with Jesus?
 
PP10 Humans don’t have the right of self-determination to be independent of God but have “free will”?
 
PP11 Most people, all non-jws, all doomed to die eternally very soon per the WTS. Goals that bring no lasting benefits = higher education.
 
PP12 God warned Cain but not Abel, God watched as Cain killed Abel, no help. Did Baruch’s lack of action bring death on someone else
 
PP13 God scourges those he loves, allows extreme trials (was Abel being scouraged?)
 
PP14 David disciplined for adultery and murder…Under the law adulterers and murderers were to be put to death…no exceptions no showing mercy get out of death clause; unless you are the king of Israel. Uriah died, the illegitimate child died, sons of David died, and 70,000 innocent people died for David’s sins.
 
Jehovah’s counsel or that of imperfect men?
 
PP15 Protecting and safeguarding his family against any possible harm or serious danger….a loving father? Unless it’s to sacrifice their child to protect the WTS reputation.
 
PP16 So how does the WTS says angels protect individual jws today?
 
*** w08 9/15 p. 9 Jehovah Is “the Provider of Escape” for Us ***What About Physical Protection?
As individuals, we know that our immediate physical protection is not guaranteed. We take the position expressed by the three faithful Hebrews who refused to bow down to King Nebuchadnezzar’s image of gold. Those God-fearing young men did not presume that Jehovah would miraculously protect them from physical harm. (Read Daniel 3:17, 18.) As matters turned out, Jehovah did deliver them from the flames of the fiery furnace. (Dan. 3:21-27) Even in Bible times, however, miraculous deliverance was the exception rather than the rule. Many faithful servants of Jehovah died at the hands of opposers.—Heb. 11:35-37.
PP 17 So how often has God allowed miraculous deliverance, it is the exception not the rule.
PP18 So what love has God shown you through the WTS?
 
Love, Blondie


 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos 4 months ago

thank you for the reminder. the message from the wt: do not expect much from us either, ruling with the greater invisible David.
PP14 David disciplined for adultery and murder…Under the law adulterers and murderers were to be put to death…no exceptions no showing mercy get out of death clause; unless you are the king of Israel. Uriah died, the illegitimate child died, sons of David died, and 70,000 innocent people died for David’s sins.
Wt comment: Jehovah handled the case himself, not allowing humans to judge the affair. yeah, killing 70 000+ innocents, when removing 2 guilty would have done. so, the moral: jws,--- look forward to more of the same.
 
fukitol
fukitol 4 months ago
Jehovah says: "I love the world. I will kill the world."

 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 4 months ago

How in the world did I ever get sucked in to believing this crap .
smiddy
 
Divergent
Divergent 4 months ago

Paragraph 2 of the study:
2 To some, though, God’s love for people is a foreign concept. To them, God is to be feared and obeyed. Or perhaps because of certain entrenched erroneous teachings, they feel that God is unloving, even unlovable. On the other hand, there are those who believe that God’s love is unconditional and that he loves them regardless of what they do or fail to do.


Questions: The WT itself teaches that God is to be feared & obeyed, so does that mean they are saying that they themselves are wrong? What if the entrenched & erroneous teachings come from the Bible itself or from the WT? If God's love is unconditional & he loves people regardless of what they do or fail to do, then why should we be JW's in the first place??? If God loves us regardless of what we fail to do, then why are JW's made to feel guilty & that they would be destroyed at Armageddon if they miss meetings, field service, family worship, personal study, & prayer?
 
fukitol
fukitol 4 months ago
'Jehovah' says: "I am your loving heavenly father. I will kill you."

 +1 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis 4 months ago

Blondie:
Thank you!
WTUnderground!
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 4 months ago
Joke-hova cares about what it can get out of you, no more. Once you are used up, that thing will happily throw you away like a used food package. And that's only to enslave us all, using our souls as energy sources for itself so it can continue until all intelligent life is wiped out. At which point, joke-hova itself will die as a parasite that has used up its food supply.

 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 4 months ago
Extreme hypocrisy knows no bounds!!
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 4 months ago
I can't imagine the disappointment of working so hard for years to earn one's way to Bethel. Then to be sent out to the field. I know if I was one of the JW's sent home after earning my way to Bethel, I would start harbouring severe doubts. You never know what the vast rank and file are thinking.
 
blondie
blondie 4 months ago

Actually, in my teenage years, I met my first ex-Bethelite. Those were the days that only single men could sign up and only for four years at once. Sort of like West Point, can't get married until you complete 4 years.
He was happy, getting married, and there was no darkness surrounding his leaving. He was viewed as an asset, an elder with Bethel training with Bethel stories to tell.
After that, many a Bethelite came home...very few lifers from my area. Some left and went into the circuit or district work. Actually, some tended to lord it over the congregation as if they had more of the holy spirit because of associating with the GB and other anointed men.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 4 months ago
If any of them bother to look up the theme scripture in a paper Bible they will see that the context talks about the heavenly hope of John and his brothers, not the daily lives of the dubs today. I expect that few will do that
 

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My new Religion is The Truth.
by LAWHFol 4 months ago 18 Replies latest 4 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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LAWHFol
LAWHFol 4 months ago

What exactly is Religion? Why all of the pain?
 You either Love religion (Usually the one you call Home), you hate it.. Or you're somewhere in between, and you say "Let bygones be bygones".
 Have you ever taken some time, to really think about what Religion is, and why it does what it does?
 I was working at a Farmers Market today, and as I was leaving, I saw 2 Witnesses (Which I used to know) manning a Jw.Org cart.
It was a husband and Wife couple, in their late 20's.. The husband was slouched over looking at his phone, and the wife was twirling her hair and biting her nails.
They sat there, just the two of them, in the Hot florida sun from 9am - 2pm.. (I would be surprised if they spoke a word more than "Hello" to anyone today.).
 When I saw these JW's i had a brief Butterfly effect thought. - Some gray bearded dude, 150 years ago, decides to step into a backyard religious meetup, he likes what he hears, and decides he wants to be a Writer of all things "Truth", and here we are.. All because of this one man, Russell. We have 8 Million Human beings Somewhere on the earth, sitting on park benches, and checking their fantasy team scores, all while "Spreading the Good news of the Kingdumb"
 On the other side of the pond, you have Family Men, blowing themselves up, and hurting countless fellow humans beings, all because of this man and his Book 1,500 years ago.
 For People like you and I, we think to ourselves. "Man I'm glad I escaped this Thing called Religion."
How can we be so sure, we have escaped though? Have We?
Perhaps we have stopped attending a building, perhaps however Religions, don't require the use of a building.
Perhaps what religion is deep down at it's core. Is something simple like an Idea or An Idea-logy.
Perhaps, we've left the church, and we've swapped our JW Credentials, for Political Zealot credentials.
Or perhaps we have searched deep into the Scriptures, and we have found the True - Truth..
We have Discovered that {Insert Ism here} is the One True Religion.
 Now with our new found Belief System or Non-Belief System, we can bash on others peoples beliefs, and finally feel good about it. After all our Ideas are correct, and anyone's ideas that are contrary, are wrong.
 If you hate what Religion does to the World.. Stop Practicing religion.
- If you are a Man, stop believing that you are better than women.
- If you are a Human, stop believing that it is ok to pay Walmart or Safeway or Publix to Torture and Kill innocent animals, so that you can eat meat.
- If you are Straight, stop believing that heterosexual relationships are right and homosexual relationships are wrong.
- If you are an American, stop believing that one Muslim is bad because some other Muslims do bad things.
- If you are a Muslim, stop believing that if the God's name is not Allah, he is not God.
- If you are a boss , stop believing it is ok to pay your employees less than a fair rate.
- If you are are an atheist, stop believing that non atheists are wrong.
- If you believe in God, stop believing that atheists are wrong.
- If you are a democrat stop believing that republicans are wrong.
I want to Stop Judging and Discriminating, won't you Join me?
 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 months ago

If you are are an atheist, stop believing that non atheists are wrong.
But they are.
I pay theists the respect of assuming they care about truth despite all the evidence that they mostly don't.
I'm generous like that.
 +8 / -4
LAWHFol
LAWHFol 4 months ago
Cofty - If you're not part of the Solution - You're part of the problem.
 +4 / -3
Simon
Simon 4 months ago

Believing in facts is not "judging and discriminating"
Not all of the things you list deserve equal billing.
 +4 / -0
LAWHFol
LAWHFol 4 months ago

Simon - I agree that believing in a Fact is not discrimination. What fact are you referring to please?
i agree that not all list items are equal.. I'm using them, as an example, of the fact that Discrimination, of any type, any time, if fervent enough, will create the same Issues as are seen in religion. Religion is not the problem, discrimination is.
 
cofty
cofty 4 months ago

Cofty - If you're not part of the Solution - You're part of the problem
Please explain?
Why are you conflating my position with discrimination?
Sort out your muddled thinking and try again
 +1 / -3
LAWHFol
LAWHFol 4 months ago

Cofty - You aren't Discriminating, however I feel that you are Judging.
As Marijuana is a gateway Drug that leads to LSD, Judging is a gateway bias that leads to Discrimination.
 +2 / -4
cofty
cofty 4 months ago

Cofty - You aren't Discriminating, however I feel that you are Judging.
I am judging religious superstitions to be wrong. They are. Why not say so?
As Marijuana is a gateway Drug that leads to LSD, Judging is a gateway bias that leads to Discrimination.
I don't discriminate against anybody. However you are judging. Pot-kettle-black
 +2 / -4
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 4 months ago

As Marijuana is a gateway Drug that leads to LSD, Judging is a gateway bias that leads to Discrimination.
Hi LAWHFol,
That statement was rather curious.
If Marijuana is a gateway to LSD, then Coffee is a gateway to Alcohol.
How did you make a Marijuana LSD connection if I may ask?
Incidentally since 2008 LSD has been studied for use as a method of anxiety relief in terminally ill cancer patients. It has also recently (2012) been studied as an adjunctive treatment for of all things alcoholism. Also LSD may possibly be psychologically habit forming (depending on the individual) but is not physically habit forming.
 +6 / -1
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 4 months ago


Perhaps what religion is deep down at it's core. Is something simple like an Idea or An Idea-logy.
Ideology is religion's sibling. Like ideology religion is an attempt to explain the world. By and of itself the human impulse for religion is not innately evil - Buddhists and Jains are pretty harmless - but the religions of our civilized era are mostly tyrannical in nature because our civilizations are so. I'd rather go back to the stone age when we worshipped (Through cave paintings and other relics) what we ate.
 
millie210
millie210 4 months ago

Village Idiot
Ideology is religion's sibling. Like ideology religion is an attempt to explain the world. By and of itself the human impulse for religion is not innately evil - Buddhists and Jains are pretty harmless
I find it fascinating that religion persists in every culture and throughout time. There have to be good reasons for any behavior to continue. If a behavior no longer serves a purpose it dies out eventually.
This article postulates that one reason for the endurance of religious rituals is economic in origin.
Ironically, it also explains why the more more forceful and blunt posters among us are ineffective in their attempts to persuade their religious counterparts when the presumption is that the religious person is somehow lacking or deficient.
How do non-believers understand religion? Simply saying that the believers are crazy or living in a different world will not suffice. The believers are also normal human beings. They are no crazier than anyone else. There is another way to look at religion, through science. Science has provided human culture with an excellent understanding of the natural world and human behavior.
-------------------
Is religious behavior rational? Is it the mobilization of available means to achieve certain ends? The sociologists Stark and Fink (2000) argue that religious behavior is actually rational in an economic sense in spite of the fact that the believers work with unobservable actors and magical processes.

http://www.anpere.net/2007/2.pdf
 +1 / -0
Viviane
Viviane 4 months ago

I pay theists the respect of assuming they care about truth despite all the evidence that they mostly don't.
I'm generous like that.
You are so very Scottish.
 +4 / -1
Chris Hannover
Chris Hannover 4 months ago

LAWHFol: Cofty - If you're not part of the Solution - You're part of the problem.
LAWHFol, this is judging & rather hateful.
 +1 / -3
The Rebel
The Rebel 4 months ago

Thanks for the interesting O.P " LAWHF01" which raised some great questions.
It has always fascinated me that many Christians were strict Stalinists in the field of politics, (the same could be said for Christians who supported Hitler) The argument was that Stalin, the leader of the communist party, fulfils the law of history, or in other words acts by the will of God; therefore one must obey Stalin.
The above illustration is to show how easily people can be divided into "loyalties" between Caesar and their religion, and still believe " My religion is the truth".
However for me the contradiction between Christianality and Stalinist philosophy cannot be overcome. What is less obvious is how a person can compromise their personal beliefs to follow completely the teachings of an organised religion ( such as I did as a witness).

Therefore for me personally the line of reasoning " My new religion is the Truth" is a statement, in which I find very ambitious and has a tone of moral authority. I think a better O.P would have been " My new religion is the Truth :-) " because personally "truth" is just a word, and interpretation of words mean so many different things to people.
The Rebel.
 
Heaven
Heaven 4 months ago


LAWHFol said: Simon - I agree that believing in a Fact is not discrimination. What fact are you referring to please?
The fact is that Christian religions base themselves upon a factually inaccurate, genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic, pro-slavery book. When the foundation for what you believe in is false, then it logically follows that any beliefs derived from that foundation will also be false.
Start with the order of creation listed in Genesis 1:11-18. According to God, the Earth, the water, the atmosphere, and soils were all formed before the sun. This is 100% false. The Bible calls the moon 'a light'. This is also false. It is a reflector of light not a source/emitter of light.
"It's called Faith because it isn't Knowledge." - Christopher Hitchens

 +2 / -2
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 4 months ago

I am not optimistic that the West will figure this out. In times of stress and crisis, it seems that fear rules, which turns off brains. When brains are turned off, one needs a person or group to do their thinking for them. Enter, "Religion", stage right.
Btw, religions aren't being "persecuted". They're being called out and held accountable. If one chooses to believe that they'll spend eternity with Jesus in heaven, that's their choice. Just don't stand there and expect to not be called out on it. And please don't whine about it. Your rights are not going away at all, save one: God willing, you'll no longer be allowed to inflict your beliefs on others in the name of the law. Your "rights" to hijack, define, and inflict your preferred meanings on words like "love" and "marriage" are gone. That's not persecution. That's taking away your "rights" to persecute others. Sounds fair to me.
 +7 / -2
fukitol
fukitol 4 months ago
Cofty is like a radar on this forum for promptly bashing anything even remotely supporting theism. It's like he scours through here 24/7 to be first off the mark for theist whack-a-mole.
 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 months ago

Think of me as your superstition paramedic.
You are welcome.
 +2 / -1
truthseeker100
truthseeker100 4 months ago

Also LSD may possibly be psychologically habit forming (depending on the individual) but is not physically habit forming.
Excellent point! When one looks at the impact of alcohol on the Aboriginal peoples of Canada and the Inuit. It makes one wonder? Remember Europeans would not have survived without access to wine because of tainted water issues! The Inuit and Canada's Aboriginal peoples had tons of good clean water but no need for alcohol!
Another good argument for Evolutionary Biology!



 +1 / -1

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