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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars 3 years ago 63 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Check out this AWESOME video - part 7 in a series where a Mormon uses the Witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.
Sparlock, Hassan's BITE model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.




Cedars
 
The Quiet One
The Quiet One 3 years ago

Pm for you
 
Julia Orwell
Julia Orwell 3 years ago

Now if only the Mormons put their own Sparlock on their TV ads and billboards.
 
cantleave
cantleave 3 years ago

The cults are so similar, it was a book about Brigham Young that helped nugget see the similarities.

*Edit - That is why I unashamedly give Cold Steel such a hard time on here for his Mormon Proselytising!
 
rip van winkle
rip van winkle 3 years ago

Great video. I love how Sparlock continues to work magic in bringing awareness to mind control and cult techniques.
 
Julia Orwell
Julia Orwell 3 years ago

Watching it now. Very good.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

bump
 
Simon
Simon 3 years ago

I suggested re: the AAWA video on shunning that it would reach more JWs if a video was made of shunning from another similar religion - it helps prevent the mental shutters being triggered and coming down and instead hopefully works at the subconscious level where they can see the parallels. Or just add something like "other religions such as Jehovahs Witnesses experience the same issues" at the end.
Whatever, the main thing is that it isn't sold as "JWs are evil and do this terrible thing" because the only people who then watch it will be those who already know.
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

Awesome video! I love this video series.
 
earthfire
earthfire 3 years ago

Thanks for posting this.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 3 years ago

Great video and I'm getting the book I believe CANTLEAVE talked about in his comment, "The 19th Wife"
 
ABibleStudent
ABibleStudent 3 years ago

Hi cedars, Awesome video to help non-JWs, non-Mormons, and politicians to understand mind control. I really liked the graphic about how the BITE model works.  Unfortunately, most JWs would not watch it because it is against the Watchtower.
Have you thought about contacting Steve Hassan directly at http://freedomofmind.com/Contact/index.php to help you create a storyboard for videos to help DF'ed/DA'ed JWs or to send to politicians to support changing how governments view charitable organizations? If you created a couple of videos that would help DF'ed/DA'ed JWs to feel empowered instead of worthless that could help 100's of thousands of exJWs. If ex-elders/elders felt terrible about DF'ing JWs, may be some of them would feel better about sending anonymous emails with links to videos that would help empower DF'ed/DA'ed JWs.
Kuddos on continuing to help empower other JWs/exJWs.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
 
Watkins
Watkins 3 years ago

The cults are so similar
They ARE! It was an ex-SDA forum that helped me see they are the same, same, SAME.
Simon's suggestion is spot-on. If it's about some other religion doing something unscriptural, jws will more likely watch it, thinking wt is superior and this is just more proof. The similarities will astound them and hopefully get 'em thinkin'.


 
erbie
erbie 3 years ago


 
erbie
erbie 3 years ago

Wow, I'm genuinely stunned. This is definitely the best video I have seen on the subject.
That animated film they use is really quite terrifying. Just the thought of people forcing their children to watch it is criminal.
The woman's eyes look quite freakish (unsurprisingly I guess).
I'm going to share it with friends.
 
paul from cleveland
paul from cleveland 3 years ago

Excellent video.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

The precepts in this video, which, by the way is in itself highly manipulative (listen to the sinister music, the one-sided approach, uneven generalities) and words like “enslaved” — all designed to lead people away from religion and justify their own selfish desires and thoughts. One reason we have scriptures is to condition our minds to conform with the counsel God gives through his prophets.

Is this “mind control”? What do you think? Couldn’t Hassan’s formulas be applied to early Christianity as well as Mormonism?

First, here are my primary criticisms of the Jehovah's Witnesses:

Ritualistic shunning. Elders and Overseers can determine who is subject to snubbing. Since members are counseled to only associate with Jehovah's Witnesses, shunning cuts off members from friends and family. It’s unscriptural and not representative of what Christ taught about forgiveness and love.
No revelation or apostolic authority. Even the members of the Governing Body admit that they do not enjoy the ministry of angels, visions, the gift of healing and other spiritual gifts that were lost in the ancient church. They claim to receive “light,” but what is light if not revelation?

Forbidding study of other religions. This is manipulative and unscriptural, and keeps members from straying by reading alternative theologies. Disciplinary action can be taken against those who violate this directive.

Discouragement of higher education. No comment necessary.

Disciplinary power of elders. Acting more like school principals prowling the halls, they have enormous power of manipulation and punishment. They form cliques of power and are often petty, vindictive and arbitrary.

No relationships outside the Society. This means no friendships or associations outside the Society, and this is extremely manipulative in that greatly helps the efficiency of disciplinary action such as ritualistic shunning and disfellowshiping.

There are many more, but Mormonism has few parallels to the Jehovah's Witness mind controls as described in this video. In fact, most Latter-day Saint parents would have let the kid have his toy and, thus, the video would not have resonated with them.

I wasn’t raised in the church but am a convert. My path was determined by my spiritual insistence that if God lives, and if he is the same yesterday, today and forever, then I reasoned that any organization claiming to be of God must be established by God, and must have divine authority, the same as it’s always been. So I wasn’t subjected to being taught its doctrines all my life.

Cognitive dissonance are two of the latest and greatest buzzwords used by secular humanists against those with faith in any religion. Ironically, it’s also a term used by members of one church against the members of other churches. Secular humanism, however, contends that only by relieving one’s self from the burdens of religious superstition can one balance one’s thoughts and emotions with one’s behavior. In other words, religion is a conviction in an unprovable personal or institutionalized belief system, often established and reinforced by others with an agenda.

The video, above, is, in my opinion, a classic form of deception. In college, I took a course on U.S., German and Soviet propaganda films produced before, during and after the war. In one U.S. film, an American couple traveling through Europe saw American and Allied soldiers marching by and remarked on how heroic they looked. Later in the film, when watching a contingent of German soldiers marching by, the same woman observed how merciless and mean they appeared. But both were simply soldiers. A German watching the film may have found that the Nazi soldiers were the heroic looking ones. But American audiences were, and still are, manipulated by their leaders, with or without the help of Hollywood.

The JW video is a way of reinforcing their views on the young, which every religion does to an extent. Ancient Israelites were expected to raise their children in the faith so as to not be a part of the profligate religions of their day. And though I find many parts of JW doctrine to be backward and openly opposed to the teachings of the Savior, I can only defend my own faith in regards to this video. What, in fact, do the makers of this video believe the LDS people should do? Teach their children nothing until they can make up their own minds?

Mormons aren’t restricted to only LDS relationships. They’re not only attracted to higher education, they’re strongly encouraged to pursue it! There are no restrictions against reading the religious literature of other churches. When someone apostatizes, we don’t shun them, but try to win them back with love. In fact, in a published revelation to Joseph Smith in 1839, the Lord specifically states:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned. By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; that he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death. Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God....

What bothers me about the video is that it has just as much of an agenda as any church, and were I to leave Mormonism, it would destroy the balance between my thoughts, emotions and behavior. I find the precepts of Christ to be worthy of dedicating my life to, and I would have no problems teaching my children those precepts from a very early age and baptizing them at the age of eight.

I suffer no pangs of cognitive dissonance in my life, but I suspect if you were to ask these “mind control” experts, all religion is mind manipulation. President Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the LDS church, stated: “I would to God that [men] would repent, that their eyes might be opened to see their condition; but the devil has power over them; he rules the children of men....” Speaking of the tribulations that are going to overtake the world, he added, “I know it by the revelations of Jesus Christ; I know it by the visions of heaven; I know it by the administrations of angels, and I know it by the inspiration of heaven that is given to each all men who seek the Lord: and the hand of God will not stay these things.” The Jehovah's Witnesses ask for loyalty to be given to the Governing Body, yet they have no visions of heaven; they have no ministration of angels; the only thing they claim is the inspiration of heaven, and they carefully avoid making any statements that would place them in an apostolic position.

Bottom line is that yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses use horrible manipulation and mind control techniques. But Mormonism, so called, is based on entirely different claims. The Governing Body does not claim revelation from heaven, but it does take upon itself divine authority that has never been given it. The LDS church, on the other hand, does claim visions, healings, the raising of the dead, the ministration of angels, just as the ancient Christians. Part of the foundation of the church also is free agency, which God gives to all men. So the entire mind control issue only holds true if the claims of the church are not true.


 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

To summarise Cold Steel - "My cult isn't as bad as your cult"
The only people who don't think Mormonism is a manipulative cult are Mormons.
Couldn’t Hassan’s formulas be applied to early Christianity as well as Mormonism?
Yes.
 
erbie
erbie 3 years ago

Both religions are insane.
I love this youtube vid, I have to keep watching it.
This thread should get 'bumped' every so often just to remind us
 
erbie
erbie 3 years ago

That poor, wretched child in the animation. They have even managed to make him look stressed and unhappily weighed down like a real Witness child.
Just compare him to the other kids in the film.
That alone should be enough to make most people see the sinister side of the cult.
I'm sorry, but to impose that on a young mind is nothing less than child abuse.
 

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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars 3 years ago 63 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 years ago

This guys videos are great. They could even be used (starting with part 1) to help JWs out.
Can't wait for part 8, I'm sure he will tie it all together and show how everything he studied about the JWs applies to Mormonism.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

While this is clearly a horrible form of mind control, I see absolutely no similarity between this video and the way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) operates. On the other hand, we do teach our children Christian values. "Yeah, your Christian values," some say, but in that respect ALL religions (cults) do the same thing. So my question to the ex-Mormon who saw the same "mind control" techniques by the video used in the LDS church, is: In what way? Is teaching people that they must live by certain standards to gain eternal life mind control?
What about first century Christian cult? Did it practice mind control? What of the miracles, the visions, the ministration of angels? Were these things the result of mind control? If so, we're simply arguing religion v. atheism.
Cofty: The only people who don't think Mormonism is a manipulative cult are Mormons.
As James Garner said in Support Your Local Sheriff, "Sometimes you make me tired all over."
Erbie: That poor, wretched child in the animation. They have even managed to make him look stressed and unhappily weighed down like a real Witness child.
They must have loved the Harry Potter movies! It's even more ironic that it was produced by the JWs. I almost felt more sorry for the mother than the child. If the kid had said, "Did I say it was a warrior wizard? No, I meant it was a warrior lizard. Jehovah likes lizards!
My wife is an ex-Muslim. She said that in Iran the government does the same sort of things in schools. They use dolls with long hair and discuss what Allah wants women to do with their hair. Allah is "happy" or "pleased" when women cover themselves and is unhappy when women show their hair. Despite this, most of the little girls subjected to this crap grow up to push restrictions whenever they can. My wife's cousin, years ago, stepped outside to pick up the newspaper. A neighbor saw her and reported her to the "brothers." She was taken to some kind of a re-education center. As a first-time offender, she wasn't treated harshly. BUT...there were others who were beaten with hollow instruments of some kind and were crying. My wife's father was an ex-judge and got her out. Things are getting a little better there now, but the mind control techniques seem similar, but not terribly effective.
 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 3 years ago

bttt
 
return of parakeet
return of parakeet 3 years ago

Cold Steel: "Is teaching people that they must live by certain standards to gain eternal life mind control?"

Yes. It's a form of operant conditioning -- punishing unacceptable behavior and reinforcing acceptable behavior to achieve obedience and conformity. It's the carrot-and-stick school of learning. The kid behaves because he wants the reward or fears the punishment, not because it's the right thing to do.
You asked earlier that if parents don't believe, what is left to teach their children. I taught my son that love and kindness to others and to oneself is its own reward. I didn't need the help of a fictitious deity to teach him right from wrong. He graduated from university, has a well-paying job to support his own family now, owns his own home, and loves his son (my grandson) to death.
What is your opinion of my parenting? What is your opinion of my son's parenting?
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Your parenting has provided him with a decent temporal outlook, but has robbed him of a spiritual foundation that provides a meaning in life.
Atheism dictates that there may be a tomorrow, but there's nothing down the road but sickness, age and death. I can't argue that someone who is an atheist should provide their children with a spiritual base, while believing it to be untrue. That would be hypocritical. But I can't imagine that any atheist could be happy in the prospect of an eternal night. On the one hand, the cure to anyone's troubles is only a gunshot away, but on the other, to go to sleep every night and wake up every morning thinking that this is all there is.
Too many religions view God as a completely supernatural being, the only one of his kind. This makes little sense to me. To think that God wills things into existance out of nothing is understandably difficult to buy from a scientific standpoint. To me, God is a revealed being. You discount my beliefs, just as I discount your beliefs, yet you go further in being openly contemptuous of what I believe and label it as "mind control." My mind, being thus controlled, I then try to control the minds of others (as you see it). But I have an expectation of an eternal future, not limited by time, space or power...and a purpose. God doesn't have spiritual offspring only to put them in a crummy garden forever; rather, he expects his offspring to become like him in every sense of the word, and to become one with him.
Since there's no point in debating atheism, we can only argue what comprises mind control. God commands that we teach our children to believe and to trust in him. We teach them, nurture them, baptize them and give them a foundation, first in hope, then in knowledge. For any man or woman can ultimately know God. But they can't pass that knowledge to you. In short, it's better to be tolerant and open. Many atheists would seize control of children from parents and use the state to ensure that no mind control is exercised.
 
dazed but not confused
dazed but not confused 3 years ago

Great video. BITE - I will have to remember that.
Behavioral Control
 Information Control
 Thought Control
 Emotional Control
Cold Steel - All the wealth of info on this site and you can’t see how warped your similar religion is... I feel bad for you.
 
garyneal
garyneal 3 years ago

What, we got an active Mormon on this board?
 
Captain Obvious
Captain Obvious 3 years ago

The sad thing is that the sparlock video is actually a pretty good rendition on a real JW upbringing. Constant fear of upsetting sky daddy. You start reading the bible story book as soon as you can turn a page. Gruesome so say the least.
This video is awesome. What we need is a reverse one. Mormonism-JWism. Perhaps when Cold Steel realizes that magic underwear is useless, he can make one.
 
return of parakeet
return of parakeet 3 years ago

Cold Steel: " But I can't imagine that any atheist could be happy in the prospect of an eternal night."
I suppose it's a failure of imagination on your part to imagine an atheist could be happy, even though I am happy. To me, the prospect of eternal night is more attractive than the prospect of eternal life, which is probably a failure of imagination on my part.
CS: "On the one hand, the cure to anyone's troubles is only a gunshot away, but on the other, to go to sleep every night and wake up every morning thinking that this is all there is. "
I don't know for a fact that this is all there is, but even if it is, that knowledge makes life all the more precious and to throw it away would be a terrible waste.
CS: "... you go further in being openly contemptuous of what I believe and label it as 'mind control.' "
I was not being contemptuous. I do think forcing religious doctrine onto children constitutes mind control. I know how that affects a child. It was done to me.
CS: "In short, it's better to be tolerant and open. Many atheists would seize control of children from parents and use the state to ensure that no mind control is exercised."
I don't know of ANY atheists that endorse such an abominable action. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but if there are, they certainly do not represent all atheists.
But many believers would like to force all children to believe as they do by bringing prayer and Bible study back into the public schools. To me, that constitutes depriving children of their right to use their minds and make their own choices.
This Buddhist parable may help you understand my point of view:
"There once was a Buddhist monk who practiced his meditation by walking in the forest each morning. On one clear crisp morning, the monk heard a rustling in the leaves and looked up to see a large tiger watching him from a distance. Sensing that the tiger was about to attack, the monk started running as fast as he could, only to come to a clearing and a high cliff. Not seeing any other way to go, the monk grasped a large vine running partly down the side of the cliff, and began to climb down it just as the tiger arrived. So there the monk was hanging, grasping the narrow end of a vine, with a snarling tiger above him, and a long deadly fall beneath him. To make matters worse, a mouse appeared and to began gnaw on the vine, just above him, but out of his reach. Just then, the monk noticed a wild strawberry plant growing from the side of the cliff, with one plump red strawberry on it. He reached out, picked the berry, put it in his mouth and thought to himself, 'This strawberry. How delicious it is!'”

The "now" matters most to me, not a future "maybe."
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

A few good links on this:
http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/bite.html
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

All the wealth of info on this site and you can’t see how warped your similar religion is... I feel bad for you.
In what way? Do you think the ancient Christians were warped? What religion isn't warped? First, Mormonism is not similar to the Jehovah’s Witnesses in any way, shape or form. Yes, we both have hierarchal structures, and we both believe we were established by God; however, there the similarities end.
I don't know for a fact that this is all there is, but even if it is, that knowledge makes life all the more precious and to throw it away would be a terrible waste.
Throw it away? Without a God it’s already thrown away. The second you’re dead, everything ceases to exist from your standpoint. Everything you experienced, everything you learned, thought about or attained to comes to absolutely nothing. All the enjoyment you gleaned from life, all the despair, achievements, wisdom—everything—is meaningless.
I suppose it's a failure of imagination on your part to imagine an atheist could be happy, even though I am happy. To me, the prospect of eternal night is more attractive than the prospect of eternal life, which is probably a failure of imagination on my part.
Yes to both. You may be happy now, but don’t think that atheism doesn’t cause its own cognitive dissonance. When one sees the complexity, beauty and order in the Universe and is exposed to the endless possibilities of what was, what is, and what is ahead, he realizes his wisdom is as nothing. As one ancient prophet noted, “all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion...and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.” If God can deliver on his promise of eternal happiness, and everlasting progress and power (glory), isn’t that better than eternal night?
Is Mormonism a cult as described by Londo111?
I clicked on the links, above, and read the article that says, yes, Mormonism is a cult and, surprise, the article is written by a former Mormon. Since I can’t accuse her as ignorant, I must, by elimination, accuse her of intentionally lying. The following is her list of what comprises, to her, a cult. But since I don’t see “American Heritage Dictionary” engraved on her forehead, we’ll just take a look at her definitions as follows. BTW, she is vocal in questioning whether there is a God, so she might agree with some of my responses.
◦The group is focused on a living leader to whom members display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
Just like first century Christianity
◦The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
Just like first century Christianity
◦The group is preoccupied with making money.
Just like first century Christianity’s “tithing.” The LDS church is known for its generosity in sending relief to disasters all over the world. We also have our own welfare system, so our members are discouraged from using government monies.
◦Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Of course, questioning and doubt are considered negative, but no one is punished unless they come out in open rebellion. Even then, the church works with such people, extending as much latitude as possible. In the end, the individual member decides whether he stays or goes. I would also speculate that the same was true of the ancient church.
◦Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
Uh-huh. She includes prayer as “meditation.” The LDS church uses none of the above. I suspect this is a potshot at early Christianity as well.
◦The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
None of this applies to us. Our leaders give counsel, which we admittedly follow. After all, to us they are apostles of Jesus Christ. The rest simply does not apply to us. I don’t know why she includes it unless she’s including the Jehovah's Witnesses in her little definition of “cult.”
◦The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
Just like first century Christianity.
◦The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
Again, she’s thinking of someone else. Robert Millett works with evangelical and protestant churches, and Dan Peterson is working with Muslims to preserve their most sacred writings and poetry. We’ve also worked closely with the Catholic Church on the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Library and other ancient documents. Hard to believe, but most people like Mormons. Maybe they didn’t get the memo.
◦The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
Just like first century Christianity.
◦Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
Hmmm...again, wrong cult. We have non-LDS friends, go to Christmas and birthday parties, office lunches and even date outside the church, though it’s discouraged. My wife in non-LDS and I’m a fully active member and don’t have to hide in a closet at church.
◦Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
See the comment above.
So that’s it. If the author considers ancient Christianity a cult, we have to plead guilty. Ancient Christianity was established by God through Jesus Christ. So was “Mormonism.” The ancient church had an open canon of scripture. So do we. The ancient church had apostles and prophets called and ordained by God. So do we. The ancient church believes in prophecy and revelation. Same here. The ancient church sent out missionaries. So do we. The ancient church received offerings by its members. So do we. I could go on, but why take it further?
A person could write a book replying to this nonsense.
 
garyneal
garyneal 3 years ago

Where is Qcmbr?
 
smiddy
smiddy 3 years ago

This is an excellent video , an excellent video for people who have doubts ,questions,or for one reason or another would sit through and watch the whole video. And I applaud it. Unless a person has doubts ,questions,or is some other way disallusioned ,dissatisfied or pissed off with their religion their is no way they would get past the identifying mark of their particular religion . For example once the name Jehovahs Witnesses was mentioned ,shutdown.The same would be true if JCOTLDS were mentioned ,shutdown,or the SDA ,same result shutdown.
The principles ,concept , and aim of this video , if it could be produced without naming or identifying with any specific religion it would be tremendous in getting, hopefully to a much larger audience as it is not JUST jehovahs witnesses or mormons who are victims here,their are many such religions who prey on the vulnerable and make them captives .
smiddy
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

I'm reading the book, THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TRUTH, by Tami someone, and believe me, we Mormons ain't even on the same block.
 
undercover
undercover 3 years ago

Watched this the other day. I got the impression that this was actually an ex-JW under the guise of being Mormon, highlighting JW tactics to expose the Mormon faith so as to 'trap' unsuspecting JWs into watching the entire video without screaming, "APOSTATE!" and fleeing in fear.
 
Captain Obvious
Captain Obvious 3 years ago

Now now Cold Steel, don't get your magic underwear in a bunch.
Do you really believe that Joseph Smith received a divine revelation? Don't you think it's convenient that he lost the golden tablets as soon as someone asked to see them? Don't you wonder why the Book of Mormon is written in ye olde English even though it was written in the 19th century? Does Jesus not speak modern English? How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance these issues must present? I'm not comparing Mormonism to JWism or Christianity.
I'm just trying to grasp how you can participate on this forum, reading about all of these problems not only with the JWs but with faith in general without seeing the problems within your own church?
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel
I recently read Going Clear by Lawrence Wright, a thoroughly good book that I would highly recommend. Though it deals with Scientology, Wright broadens his discussion in the Epilogue to encompass other religious movements - including the LDS Church.
I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on the following quote from pages 375-377...

One might compare Scientology with the Church of Latter Day Saints, a
new religion of the previous century. The founder of the movement, Joseph
Smith, claimed to have received a pair of golden plates from the angel
Moroni in upstate New York in 1827, along with a pair of magical “seeing
stones,” which allowed him to read the contents. Three years later, he
published The Book of Mormon, founding a movement that would provoke
the worst outbreak of religious persecution in American history. Mormons
were chased all across the country because of their practice of polygamy and
their presumed heresy. Smith himself was murdered by a mob in Carthage,
Illinois. His beleaguered followers sought to escape the United States and
establish a religious theocracy in the territory of Utah, which they called
Zion. Mormons were so despised that there was a bill in Congress to
exterminate them. And yet Mormonism would evolve and go on to become
one of the fastest-growing denominations in the twentieth, and now the
twenty-first, centuries. Members of the faith now openly run for president of
the United States. In much of the world, this religion, which was once
tormented because of its perceived anti-American values, is now thought of
as being the most American of religions; indeed, that’s how many Mormons
think of it as well. It is a measure not only of the religion’s success but also
of the ability of a faith to adapt and change.
And yet Joseph Smith was plainly a liar. In answer to the charge of
polygamy, he claimed he had only one wife, when he had already
accumulated a harem. A strange but revealing episode occurred in 1835,
when Smith purchased several Egyptian mummies from an itinerant
merchant selling such curiosities. Inside the mummy cases were scrolls of
papyrus, reduced to fragments, which Smith declared were the actual
writings of the Old Testament patriarchs Abraham and Joseph. Smith
produced what he called a translation of the papyri, titled The Book of
Abraham. It still forms a portion of Mormon doctrine. In America at the
time, Egyptian was still thought to be indecipherable, but the Rosetta Stone
had already been discovered, and Jean-François Champollion had
successfully rendered the hieroglyphic language into French. In 1966, the
Joseph Smith papyri were discovered in the collection of the Metropolitan
Museum of Art. It was soon shown that the passages that Smith “translated”
were common funerary documents with no reference to Abraham or Joseph
whatsoever. This fraud has been known for decades, but it has made little
difference in the growth of the religion or the devotion of its adherents.
Belief in the irrational is one definition of faith, but it is also true that
clinging to absurd or disputed doctrines binds a community of faith together
and defines a barrier to the outside world.

Cedars
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

I'd often wondered why WT never attacked the Mormon Church the way it attacked the Catholic Church or other Protestants. They have too much in common.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

First, Billy, I'm still waiting for someone to detail all the similarities. I've documented just how different we are. Have you read my posts?
Do you really believe that Joseph Smith received a divine revelation? Don't you think it's convenient that he lost the golden tablets as soon as someone asked to see them? Don't you wonder why the Book of Mormon is written in ye olde English even though it was written in the 19th century? Does Jesus not speak modern English? How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance these issues must present? I'm not comparing Mormonism to JWism or Christianity.
Yes, I firmly believe it and think there's considerable evidence to back up those claims. But let's discuss the gold plates.
If Joseph Smith had produced the plates at the time and let everyone see them, would YOU have been converted? How would you know an angel had given them to Smith? How would you know that the plates were not just ancient American artifacts that Smith had found? And would the courts have granted ownership of the plates to Smith when he had found them on the property of the man who owned the New York drumlin? And, finally, for the sake of this discussion, how would you know that they were accurately translated?
I have no problem with the translation. It is what it is. And if it's a hoax, it should be the easiest thing in the world for scholars of ancient scripture to discredit. At the time they were discovered, no ancient records had EVER been found written on gold or other metals. Now they've found ancient records made on gold, silver, brass, copper and other metals. The Book of Mormon was written beginning around 600 B.C., which was the right time when other records on metal plates were written.
The Lord provides EVIDENCE of things, but very rarely does he provide PROOF. And there are many things that no man could have known in 1830. For example, one of our scholars attended a lecture on chiasmus, a parallel writing style found in complex structures in Old Testment writings. This scholar, John W. Welch, reasoned that if the Book of Mormon was genuine, it ought to have the same sort of chiasmic structures that the Old Testament did. So he began to research it that very night, and he discovered that not only did the Book of Mormon have them, but that they were some of the most complex structures found in any ancient writing, period. (See his Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon,
Chiasmus in Helaman 6:7-13 and Chiasmus in Mesoamerican Texts). So here are just two out of literally hundreds of evidences.
Within the last decade or so, a few LDS employees of an oil company were granted access to some of the restricted areas mentioned in the first several chapters of the Book of Mormon. With just a couple of land rovers, a compass and the accounts written by Nephi, they started off from Jerusalem using the directions found in the Book of Mormon. They and subsequent explorers not only found that Nephi had left extremely accurate directions, but that he described the inhospitable desert environs to the letter, even locating Nahum, a name place where the Lehites had buried Ishmael, one of their party. Naturally, they checked on the community's age and found that, yes, it existed in 600 B.C. Not only that, but subsequent researchers discovered in 2006 that Nahum was a burial site, and that there were remains dated back to Lehi's time. Nephi also described their encampment as being a 3-day journey from Jerusalem and, further, that it was in a mighty valley with a "river of water" that ran through it. Assuming that the party had camels, they could cover about 25 miles per day. After about about 70 miles, they found a huge granite valley with a perennial stream running through it. They confirmed, through the Department of Antiquities, that the campsite they found in the valley had potshards that dated back to circa 600 B.C. Nephi explains that one of the first things they did was to build an altar. They found not only one altar, but two. Going further, LDS geologists, anthropologists, botanists and ancient scripture scholars found that Nephi's account did not vary from that which was found thousands of years later. Even the spot where the Lehites made their tools, built their ship and lived for a number of years was found. In 1830, no one living in the United States knew of such a spot. They assumed it was all desert! It was...right up to the spot where they came into view of the ocean. Suddenly there were trees, a beautiful harbor, a "high mountain" and a cliff where Nephi's brothers tried to kill him; also, grains, fruit, game animals, ore rich in iron and honey bees.
If I were to conclude that Mormonism was a sham...a hoax...my cognative dissonance would go off the charts. In one Book of Mormon story, a prophet comes before the Lord regarding the barges God commanded them to build. Specifically, how to light said barges. So the Lord asked this prophet, in effect, "What would you have me do?" The prophet emptied a large pouch of clear white stones and asked the Lord to touch them, so that they would produce light. How did he know to have such stones ready? No one knew it in 1830, but according to apocraphal writings later coming to "light," this is exactly how the ark of Noah was lit. (See Strange Ships and Shining Stones (A Not So Fantastic Story) and Howlers in the Book of Mormon).
I could go on, but these things are not meant to convert. Indeed, in the Book of Mormon, a prophet prophesied that when Christ was born in the land of Jerusalem, there would be three days (in the Western Hemisphere) where there would be no sun at night, but that it would remain bright as day, and that a new star would be seen afterwards in the heavens. The enemies of the church were openly disdainful of the prophecy, and threatened violence if the promised signs did not manifest themselves. But it did happen, and skeptics throughout the land repented and many turned to the Lord. The same prophet also had prophesied that when Jesus died in Jerusalem, that there would be widespread darkness and destruction. About 33 years later, the enemies of the church, many who had seen the original sign, had turned again against the church. And the scriptures state that Satan had entered into the hearts of these people so that they no longer were impressed by that sign, and wrote it off as a natural event. Again they threatened the church if the prophecy did not come to pass. Unfortunately for them, the destructions did come and entire cities were entombed, and the wicked were destroyed by the hundreds of thousands. This was followed by a visit by Jesus Christ. Today, there are scores of traditions of a bearded white god who once visited them and promised one day to return. When Hernando Cortez and other explorers like Capt. James Cook were first seen, native Americans saw that many of their crews had beards, as did Cortez himself, and they worshipped them, respectively, as Quetzalcoatl and Lono, white gods of ancient tradition. (See The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record and External Evidences of the Book of Mormon .)
I could go into other evidences, but like I said, they rarely convert. Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has been impressed by many things in the Book of Mormon such as the delicious white fruit described by Lehi in his vision of the tree of life. Nowhere, other than the Book of Mormon and recently discovered ancient apocraphal writings, has she seen such a reference. No such example has been found in the Bible; but though this and other things have greatly impressed her, she has no interest in converting to Mormonism.
For other evidences, see Jeff Lindsey's website of a list of evidences of the Book of Mormon.
Finally, forgetting all the evidences, we Mormons differ very much from the Jehovah's Witnesses in one area that surpasses all the rest. We claim apostolic authority. Our leaders don't just pull doctrines out of their netherregions and present it to the people, but we believe that we are led by authorized, ordained apostles who receive the same types of revelation that the apostles of old received. The GOVERNING BODY of the Jehovah's Witnesses have never had confirmation of their chosen status, never seen an angel, never had a vision, never had the Holy Spirit descend on them. They also have no witnesses who can confirm their chosen status. In truth, they're false prophets in the traditional sense of the word. We don't shun people, we don't restrict access to other churches or their literature, we have great birthday parties and we celebrate Easter and Christmas. We go to office parties, date whomever we wish, associate with non-Mormons and...did I mention that we don't shun anyone? When we do excommunicate someone, we do everything we can to win them back through fellowship and love.
How are we similar except for sending out missionaries? Shoot, we can even differ amongst ourselves on biblical doctrine and exegesis.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall
every word be established."



 "For surely the Lord will do nothing, save he
 reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets."

"For ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen
you and ordained you."


Gold plates in stone box, Darius of Persia.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Inside the mummy cases were scrolls of papyrus, reduced to fragments, which Smith declared were the actual writings of the Old Testament patriarchs Abraham and Joseph. Smith produced what he called a translation of the papyri, titled The Book of Abraham. It still forms a portion of Mormon doctrine. In America at the time, Egyptian was still thought to be indecipherable, but the Rosetta Stone had already been discovered, and Jean-François Champollion had successfully rendered the hieroglyphic language into French. In 1966, the Joseph Smith papyri were discovered in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It was soon shown that the passages that Smith “translated.”






 

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check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
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cedars.



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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars 3 years ago 63 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel
Those two videos are not an answer to my question. The first video is an anal discussion speculating what a missing part of a papyrus may or may not have portrayed, and wrongly assumes that Abraham must be one of the figures depicted on the papyrus with absolutely no supporting evidence.
The second video attempts to refute any scholarly questions regarding the book of Abraham by painting scholarly treatments on the subject as transitory and subject to change. Mormon "experts" are wheeled in to impress us with their background and reassure us that everything's legit. It's all unnervingly similar to the kind of reasoning employed by Watchtower in trying to defend its 607 BCE date for the destruction of Jerusalem. "None of us were there at the time, so who can really say? There's no evidence that it DIDN'T happen. Therefore, it must have happened the way we say it did."
If I were a Mormon and I was presented with clear evidence that Joseph Smith misrepresented run-of-the-mill Egyptian funeral documents as being a missing book about Abraham, that would cause me to question not only the man himself but everything else he claimed to pen under 'inspiration.'
The man was clearly a fraud and a charlatan. It's a shame you can't see it.

Cedars
 
return of parakeet
return of parakeet 3 years ago

Cold Steel: " Without a God it’s already thrown away. The second you’re dead, everything ceases to exist from your standpoint. Everything you experienced, everything you learned, thought about or attained to comes to absolutely nothing. All the enjoyment you gleaned from life, all the despair, achievements, wisdom—everything—is meaningless. "

I have no problem with "meaninglessness." I invest my own meaning into my own life. When I'm gone, "nothingness" is what I expect; I don't fear it. The highest honor I aspire to is Matthew Arnold's standard -- that I "saw life steadily and saw it whole."
I am truly unable to understand why anyone needs more than that. Are you that afraid of death, CS, that you must believe in something more?

"The free-thinking of one age is the common sense of the next."
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

CS: "First, Billy, I'm still waiting for someone to detail all the similarities. I've documented just how different we are. Have you read my posts?"
I'm not interested in your religion, so I have no reason to read your posts.
Have a nice day.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 years ago

There are similarities between the two religions, you can hardly deny that. They both were started in the 19th century by charismatic leaders. Both reject trinity, and believe in proselytizing. Both strongly encourage strict Christian values, and forbid homosexuality and sex outside of marriage. The differences in doctrine are just bells and whistles, the culture is quite similar.
I simply could never believe in the preposterous tales of Joseph Smith. Golden tablets and speaking salamanders? Revelations from God that a married man can boink a sixteen year old girl? What seemed incredible and amazing back then just doesn't hold up under scrutiny and in this time with all the evidence we have. I can not take seriously a religion that has people wearing magical underwear with symbols on them. Having left the dubs and learning about how much of it was hogwash and lies, there is no way I would be able to suspend my disbelief enough to go to another high control religion.
I am glad you found something that floats your boat, but if you are hoping to recruit people here to the Mormons you are wasting your time. Once burned twice shy and all that.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Those two videos are not an answer to my question. ... If I were a Mormon and I was presented with clear evidence that Joseph Smith misrepresented run-of-the-mill Egyptian funeral documents as being a missing book about Abraham, that would cause me to question not only the man himself but everything else he claimed to pen under ‘inspiration.’
And if I were presented with clear evidence that Joseph Smith was inspired in everything else he produced and prophesied, and that there were unanswered issues with just one of them, it would cause me to think there were probably good answers to them.
As you undoubtedly failed to read in my previous post, some LDS explorers traced Nephi’s directions from Jerusalem to their first campsite three days away. Years ago when I first joined the church, I had people wave that part of the Book of Mormon under my nose and say, “Where’s that ‘river of water’ Nephi talks about? There are no such rivers in that part of Arabia!” Many of them also asked disdainfully where there was a place anywhere in the desert where Nephi could have built a ship from trees, without tools in a place with grains, fruits, ore and a harbor. At the time, I couldn’t answer any of those questions. I was completely clueless.
Now those questions are no longer issues. If Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he managed to make some fabulous guesses and he knew about the Frankincense Trail that led from Jerusalem to Oman to Khor Rori. It appears to be, except for one city in the south, the exact route that Lehi and his family took when they left Jerusalem.
If the Book of Mormon were a hoax, it would be less plausible in each succeeding year. And while there are still unanswered questions about the geography of the record, primarily in the Western Hemisphere, it becomes more plausible each year, not less.
Regarding the Book of Abraham, there are two aspects of judging it. First, there’s the means of transmission (like the gold plates of the Book of Mormon). Second, there’s the content, not only stylistically but what the document states. The two videos I listed isn’t all we have by a long shot; it’s only the tip of the iceberg. Some other papers follow.
The one area the critics don’t seem to want to talk about is content. After telling us there’s absolutely no connection between our Book of the Dead and Abraham, a very similar facsimile to ours was found of a man lying on a lion couch. Underneath it, the name “Abraham” was scrawled on the papyrus.



A lion couch scene appears in Leiden Papyrus I 384 (PGM xii).
The outline marks Abraham’s name, written in Greek. (Courtesy
of Rijksmuseum van Oudheden.) Critics claim that Abraham
would never be associated with the Egyptian "lion couch"
scene. Recently, however Abraham's name has indeed been
discovered associated with one such "lion couch" scene. See
Research & Perspectives: Abraham in Ancient Egyptian Texts.
Papers of interest may include:
◦The Role of the Book of Abraham in Latter-day Saint Scripture
◦The Book of Abraham: Ask the Right Questions and Keep On Looking
◦The Book of Abraham and the Book of the Dead
◦The Book of Abraham and Muslim Tradition
◦The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham
Regarding content, our Book of Abraham fits in well with other extrabiblical texts attributed to Abraham. Joseph Smith had access to none of them, and yet they have numerous parallels that go beyond just chance (at least in my view). Such parallels involve a premortal council of spirits, the choosing and ordaining of the rulers and great ones, idolatry, human sacrifice, priesthood, revelation, Pharaoh, and famine.
For example, a simple parallel between the Apocalypse of Abraham and our Book of Abraham:



Jeremiah writes: Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and
before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.  (Jeremiah 1:5)
This concept is not new; however, a primordial council involving the spirits of everyone who later was born on the earth
is a recognized ancient Hebrew tradition. It's a hot topic among scholars who call it the "Divine Council."

The Book of Abraham is about Abraham's deliverance from a ritual sacrifice and his calling as a prophet of God. Many of the apocryphal books attributed to Abraham involve such sacrifices. It's also at the heart of the Book of Abraham debate.
Bottom line, you're too willing to listen to one side of the story. I predict time will be on our side.



 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel
Years ago when I first joined the church, I had people wave that part of the Book of Mormon under my nose and say, “Where’s that ‘river of water’ Nephi talks about? There are no such rivers in that part of Arabia!”
Yes, I am familiar with the "evidence" of which you speak.
However, the fact that Joseph Smith correctly guessed that there was a place in Arabia with trees and a river does not make him an inspired prophet, just an accomplished gambler.

Cedars
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel
If the Book of Mormon were a hoax, it would be less plausible in each succeeding year. And while there are still unanswered questions about the geography of the record, primarily in the Western Hemisphere, it becomes more plausible each year, not less.
Is that a reference to the fact that there is not one iota of archeological evidence that an ancient Jewish civilization once thrived in North America?

Cedars
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Ok - here :confounded:
Everyone knows why they are right, everyone knows what proves their viewpoint, a particular problem of faith based beliefs however, is that very few know what would disprove that belief.
As a mormon I loved the church, it was fantastic. I was glad that I had a progressive worldview that was welcoming of science (indeed welcoming of all truth) and instead of feeling threatened by the success of other churches, worldviews or non-mormons I, and my church, had a very broad view (god gives light and knowledge to all his children.) To be a mormon was not to take away from others beliefs, it was to offer them additional info they hadn't come across before. As a missionary I wasn't converting people away from say catholicism I was acknowledging how important that organisation had been as a way for god to teach them things and was offering them the next stage, I offerred Catholicism upgraded, Bhuddism upgraded, Humanism upgraded etc. All along I welcomed information because I was so certain that we had the facts, we had real truth , we had an actual prophet and this was the only church actually managed and set up directly by Jesus.
That which I described above is what brainwashing does. From my earliest memory I was singing 'Follow the Prophet', I was given 'historical' reading books on the Book of Mormon,I was attending impresive media productions on South American archaelogy that proved the BoM and so on. I didn't so much as find my testimony (though at 14 I did have an incredible experience) as have it layered into my psyche day in and day out. My weekly schedule (prior to the consolidated meeting schedule) was :
Sunday morning Sacrament meeting, meal at church or church members house, Sunday Afternoon Priesthood/relief Society Meetings, Sunday Evening Fireside, Monday night Family Home Evening (Lesson, songs and - normally edible - treat) , Tuesday Adults meetings at church for various auxiliaries (so Mum was on Young Women's Presidency so I ended up wandering church corridors), Wednesday MIA (church members mixed adults and kids activity night), Thursday night Sunday School, Friday night church sports / fireside / special activity, Saturday infrequent Stake/ Regional activities like sports events, Roadshows, Bring and Buy sales etc. In short my entire life outside of school was church related. Don't get me wrong, I loved it, but I was not exposed to any other influences nor was I ever taught how to think, everything was a black and white absolute of what to think.
The bookshelves of our home were loaded with church materials, my weekly 'comic' was the church publication 'The Friend' and then as I got older 'The New Era' filled with faith promoting stories, puzzles about the BoM and information on prominent church members or high achievers. On top of that we had missionaries over at our house regularly for meals and to teach people (female missionaries, my mum was single so males not allowed!)
This is what brainwashing is, this is what a cult does, this is what makes it so hard to freely think and evaluate. I have pondered long and hard about why I didn't see the problems, why I couldn't perceive the logical mistakes. The only conclusion I have is brainwashing. A person wearing blue shade glasses indeed sees the world as blue but the glasses must be removed in order to see that the world isn't all blue. I had to take off the glasses before I could recognise that the church was NOT true. Until that time every tiny bit of information (like that presented by Cold Steel) seemed like the most incredible proof and every negative bit of information was brushed aside with barely a flicker of recognition.
Only when you know what would invalidate your belief are you able to evaluate it - otherwise you are simply rote learning.
* No miracle stories of Mormonism happened as described in church lesson literature (Checked with primary sources.)
* No prophecies of Mormonism with general application have ever happened (Check them all!). Many personal prophecies were either easily fulfilled (you will go on a mission - said by the person who can send them on one - or you will have a child (doh - most people do) and so on) or simply forgotten and brushed aside when they didn't occur.
* No archaeology agrees with Mormon claims and almost all directly contradicts it (DNA proves no American Indian ancestry from Middle East, no animals of types mentioned in BoM native to Americas, No evidence of million man battles or sprawling huge civilisations matching BoM civilisations, flora and fauna not native to SA mentioned, native flora and fauna not mentioned and incorrect or anachronous technology such as glass windows, chariots, steel, concrete, silk etc.
* BoM contains various source material available to Joseph Smith and indicating human origin (Map of Cumoros Island with capital Moroni - key names in BoM, many names of places lifted from local towns, Indian place names and geographical regions, Swedenborgian spiritual philosophy, superstition and magic elements - treasure digging, seerstones, divining rods, rituals to collect buried artefacts, masonry, direct lifts from several books of the day (I can provide several hundred direct and paraphrased quotes from books of the day if needed - mind boggling) most notably the bible (lifts including known errors and puzzlingly things he corrected in his later bible 'translation'.)
* Joseph made several translation claims that failed (Greek Psalter, Kinderhook Plates and now we have a fragment of the original Book of Abraham papyrus, the Book of Abraham)
* Joseph committed several horrendous social abuses (cornering married and single women in back rooms, telling them that an angel had commanded them to marry him, if they would submit they and several generations would be guaranteed Celestialisation and if they rejected him they and those same generations would damned ), he had an affair with a 14 year old (culturally not that 'bad' but still unacceptable), he set himself up as the seller of property in each new territory he founded (so he always could make money), he set up a fraudulent bank and fleeced many members (the primary reason for a vast apostacy in the early days of the church), he made up doctrine on the fly to suit (Word of Wisdom to placate his wife and containing the instruction to drink beer but not spirits - unlike our latest incarnation of it, Celestial marriage and the whole temple to hide his affairs and so on.)
In the broad light of day only brainwashing can lead a sane, rational adult to accept this whole rotten lie. Even though the modern day church is very different now its history is mired in awfulness (Utah under Brigham Young was a terrible place where people disappeared, women lived under absolute male rule, polgamy plagued the people and saw old men picking and choosing young wives at will, castrations of men who wouldn't give up wives etc.) No matter how many flashy ads the LDS church puts out it will not beat its history and the internet.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Glad to have you join in Qcmbr as JWN's resident Mormon apostate. Better late than never!
I would just like to temper my previous comments with the acknowledgment that, through my limited research, Mormonism strikes me as a religion with teachings that are less directly harmful to its adherents than JWs (i.e. no ban on blood transfusions, shunning admonition is less overt).
Even so, Mormonism manifests many if not all of the attributes of a cult, and some of its teachings stretch credulity even more so than Watchtower's twisted doctrines. (Hence my attempts to get Cold Steel to grapple with the outside world's acknowledgment of Joseph Smith's charlatanry.)

Cedars
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Jesus also wrestled with his critics and so must his servants do likewise. The day will come, sooner or later, when everyone will know who the servants of Christ are, and those who aren't.

◦No miracle stories of Mormonism happened as described in church lesson literature (Checked with primary sources.)
This is a blanket statement, and a bold one, too. Of course, atheists don’t believe that any miracles happened as described in the New Testament, either. But how would they know? To them, Jesus wasn’t born of a virgin, there were no appearances of Gabriel, Jesus didn’t change water into wine, did not heal people, did not see Moses and Elias on the mount of transfiguration and was most definitely not resurrected following his death. He also did not show himself for 40 days afterwards.
◦No prophecies of Mormonism with general application have ever happened (Check them all!). Many personal prophecies were either easily fulfilled (you will go on a mission—said by the person who can send them on one - or you will have a child (doh - most people do) and so on) or simply forgotten and brushed aside when they didn't occur.
None of the prophecies? How about the prophecy on war, which foretold the great Civil War and the wars which would follow? Every aspect of that prophecy was fulfilled, including the part that read, “and after that, war will be poured out on all nations.” Prior to the first and second world wars, world wars were unknown. As for births and so forth, again, you don’t know whereof you speak. Parley P. Pratt’s wife couldn’t bear children, but she was given a blessing and had a child. There were numerous such prophecies and blessings. But since there’s no God, there are no prophecies, and no miraculous healings.
But perhaps the greatest prophecies that came to pass of a “general application” were those in the Book of Mormon. If it was a hoax and a fraud, then Joseph Smith must have been making all those prophecies about himself. And making prophecies in 1830 and then fulfilling them are two very different things. In short, they were very ambitious prophecies and there were hundreds of ways for them to be frustrated. And in 1836, Moses appeared in the Kirtland Temple and conferred upon Smith and Oliver Cowdery the authoritative priesthood keys for the gathering of Judah to the lands of its inheritance. In the 1840s, apostle Orson Hyde was sent to the Holy Land to exercise those keys and start the Jews returning to Jerusalem and surrounding lands. Then, in the 1870s, the Jews began migrating to Israel in increasing numbers, due in large part not only to Elder Hyde, but Theodor Herschel, the “first” Zionist. Again, after nearly two thousand years of the Diaspora, or dispersion, the Jews fulfilled prophecy. There are so many prophecies that were made, not only by Smith, but by other apostles and prophets, that it illustrates that Joseph Smith was by no means a one-man band.
The Jehovah's Witnesses had determined by their earliest beginnings that Judah was never going to be restored to the lands of its inheritance. So they did some quick rewriting and discovered that they, as “spiritual Israel,” were the ones who were to be gathered. And it wasn’t Judah, but they, who would be attacked in the Battle of Armageddon.
Isaiah writes concerning the gathering of Judah and a latter-day prophet who would be an ensign to the gentiles and would gather the Jews:

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.... And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isa. 11:11-12)
This is one of the scriptures that Moroni quoted to Joseph Smith when he appeared to him that night in his room. Later revelations also indicate that Smith is the fulfillment of this “root of Jesse” prophecy, and that he was a descendent of David, through Jesse. As far as I know, he’s the only claimant to the title, and since Judah is being restored to their lands and the times of the gentiles are in full sway, if it’s not Joseph Smith, then who is this root of Jesse? Again, there are numerous prophecies that were fulfilled, including the saints going on to gather in the Rocky Mountains. So your claim is simply untrue.
◦No archaeology agrees with Mormon claims and almost all directly contradicts it (DNA proves no American Indian ancestry from Middle East, no animals of types mentioned in BoM native to Americas, No evidence of million man battles or sprawling huge civilisations matching BoM civilisations, flora and fauna not native to SA mentioned, native flora and fauna not mentioned and incorrect or anachronous technology such as glass windows, chariots, steel, concrete, silk etc.
Again, completely wrong. You just haven’t read the historic records and most recent developments in the Mesoamerican research projects now underway. Recent evidence even suggests the existence of pre-Columbian horses. I’ve been to Mexico and have stood on large, flat cement streets and been in cement buildings. I don’t know of any “glass windows” mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and the only one I know who’s made that charge is Walter Martin, so you’re betraying your sources. Recent DNA research in Mesoamerica has even suggested Middle East origins. I suggest you keep current on the research and to stop trying to force round pegs into square holes.
◦BoM contains various source material available to Joseph Smith and indicating human origin (Map of Cumoros Island with capital Moroni—key names in BoM, many names of places lifted from local towns, Indian place names and geographical regions, Swedenborgian spiritual philosophy, superstition and magic elements—treasure digging, seerstones, divining rods, rituals to collect buried artifacts, masonry, direct lifts from several books of the day (I can provide several hundred direct and paraphrased quotes from books of the day if needed—mind boggling) most notably the bible (lifts including known errors and puzzlingly things he corrected in his later bible 'translation'.)
It’s ironic that you bring up the Comoros (not “Cumoros”) Islands’ names when you completely discount Nahom being in the exact area Nephi said it was and that it was a burial site, when Nephi said it was where they buried Ishmael. (It wasn’t discovered to be a burial place until the mid-90s). You also discount the other numerous instances where Nephi’s account is meticulously correct, when there was no way he could have known about it in 1830. And, BTW, this is almost zero chance that Joseph Smith could have known about those island names. Moroni (pronounced Muruni) did not become the capital of the islands until 1876 and many maps of Joseph Smith’s day didn’t even show Comoros on maps, whether in the U.S. or Europe. And those that did didn’t even show Moroni!)
◦Joseph made several translation claims that failed (Greek Psalter, Kinderhook Plates and now we have a fragment of the original Book of Abraham papyrus, the Book of Abraham)
I’ve already gone into the Book of Abraham in some detail, and as far as the Kinderhook Plates are concerned, Joseph Smith left no written claims about them, nor did he attempt to produce a “translation.” In fact, he showed almost no interest in them whatsoever. But this was not the case with the Book of Abraham papyrus. For more info on these items, see this apologetic review.


◦Joseph committed several horrendous social abuses (cornering married and single women in back rooms, telling them that an angel had commanded them to marry him, if they would submit they and several generations would be guaranteed Celestialisation and if they rejected him they and those same generations would damned ), he had an affair with a 14 year old (culturally not that 'bad' but still unacceptable)....
It would be impossible for Joseph Smith to be both a prophet and a reprobate. We also know the least of these issues than any other in Smith’s ministry. The infamous 14-year old was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Elder Heber J. Grant, one of Mormonism’s most gifted prophets. In LDS doctrine, people are bound by families throughout the eternities. Elder Kimball very much wanted his family to be bound to Smith’s family in the world to come. The only way this could happen is that his daughter be sealed to Joseph Smith. Helen was thus sealed to Smith and resided in the room above the printing office. There is NO evidence that Joseph ever considered this anything more than a familial bond, and there is no evidence it was ever consummated.
Helen lived to be a ripe old age in Utah and wrote a book about her father and her life. She never indicated that anything improper or untoward ever happened between her and Joseph.
There was also the case in which Elder Hyde made a long, arduous journey to the Holy Land to dedicate it for the return of the Jews. Just before he left, his wife married Joseph and was cared for by him in his absence. Upon his return, months later, his wife remarried him and later bore Elder Hyde a son. The bottom line, is that we can’t depend on the church’s enemies to give us detailed information regarding Smith’s alleged infidelities.
It was Brigham Young who stated, “ Every time you kick Mormonism you kick it upstairs; you never kick it downstairs. The Lord Almighty so orders it.”



Instead of only reading anti-Mormon sites, try reading the other side.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Cold Steel - this probably isn't the thread to do this. If you'd like to discuss it and you think you have a strong case lets take each of the prophecies / miracles , one at a time, you present the evidence you have and I'll present what I found. Sound like a plan? Would be more than happy to start with the prophecy on the civil war. I will allow you to start the threads.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

Please say yes Cold Steel.
I would love to read those threads.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

I have neither the time nor the inclination for a long, drawn out debate, but if you want to discuss it, come on over to the Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board and we can continue our exchange there. I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say "prophecies" and "miracles." Are you seriously saying you can disprove them, and that all of the Mormon prophecies and all of the alleged miracles didn't happen?
I don't know how you can disprove them, but if you think you have something, bring it on. If you can deliver, you'll do something no other anti-Mormon has been able to do.



 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Shrugs, this was a good chance to put forward some info Cold - surprised you don't want to take it.
As a quick summary to my thoughts on JS and his prophecy I think we apply the tag of 'prophecy' (in most cases) after an event has occurred that can be interpreted as having matched the main elements of some statement. This is similar to the way people will respond to cold reading; finding hits while ignoring the misses. At first reading the JS prophecy on the civil war (I think this one we can call prophecy as it is published in LDS scripture as a revelation from God) is very impressive, especially as it is then backed up by further prophecy preceding the event. Like cold reading however, the main hit overrides the failing details that then need interpretation to explain. Furthermore JS also had several statements that never achieved the tag of 'prophecy' because they never happened but if they had they would surely have been elevated as such.
 
braincleaned
braincleaned 3 years ago

Great post!
 
braincleaned
braincleaned 3 years ago

Shaking my head at Cold Steel and the huge debate around a Jesus that is a man built up in mythology in the first place — a clone of earlier writtings.
So sad to me...
So much better to have a realtionship with Reality.
 
jj123jj123
jj123jj123 3 years ago

I thought this was an interesting read...
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1hv7v5/what_do_people_think_of_mormons/


 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Jesus wrestled with his critics.
Wrestlers wrestle.
Just because a cult wrestles with critics does not make them saints, Jesus or Jesus's representatives.
Wrestlers aren't Jesus either.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Knowing it is all a fraud, I wondered if a linguist had taken a good look at Smith's materials. Sure enough.
http://packham.n4m.org/linguist.htm
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Not certain whether you're taking up the challenge or not Cold! We could go to another board to discuss this but that wasn't what I was aiming at (I think we both know where we stand relative to each other, a discussion regarding the validity of prophecy I suspect has been done to death on those boards and the tone I would probably use would end up with me getting chucked off quite rapidly,a bit like eating a Big Mac in Hindu temple.) I was looking more to explore what constitutes prophecy, how little information is actually given and how it is often surrounded by odd things.
I have to work in a sec. so this is just a quick indicator of what I mean:
History of the Church (vol. 1, pg.301). Joseph wrote, "The people of South Carolina, in convention assembled (in November), passed ordinances, declaring their state a free and independent nation...President Jackson issued his proclamation against this rebellion, called out a force sufficient to quell it, and implored the blessings of God to assist the nation to extricate itself from the horrors of the approaching and solemn crisis."
Since the 'revelation' in D&C 87 was given a month later it takes on a different tone (verse 1 refers to the already passed rebellion not the future start of the Civil War)
Verse 2 suggests that war would be poured out on all nations starting from this rebellion but in reality neither World Wars were linked to the American Civil War. In fact , if you look at the following info it is posible to see how wars have been pretty consistent across the period. What the US Civil War did do however, was introduce serious trench warfare and the wholesale industrialisation of the process.
http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=5&totalRows_rsSite=127
http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=6&totalRows_rsSite=127
http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=7&totalRows_rsSite=127
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/the_world_is_actually_safer_than_ever/
That in the event of conflict the South would call on Great Britain is a given considering the cotton trade but Great Britain didn't join the war and therefore didn't call on other nations (its very vague to say that at some time in the future in some war GB would call for help!)
No Israelite remnant rose up to vex the Gentiles unless we are now linking this prophecy to the Middle East (!?)
No consumption of all nations has occurred.
There was no point in standing in Holy places since no second coming happened.
So in total the main hit had already happened (it just looks like its referring to a future event) and everything thereafter is either common knowledge or too vague to be applied.
 

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Topic Summary
check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
.
cedars.



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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars 3 years ago 63 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Oubliette
Oubliette 3 years ago

Cedars, that's a great video. Really well put together. Thanks for sharing it!
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

...and the tone I would probably use would end up with me getting chucked off quite rapidly, a bit like eating a Big Mac in Hindu temple. I was looking more to explore what constitutes prophecy, how little information is actually given and how it is often surrounded by odd things.
People haven’t been kicked off the board just for disagreeing. (We’re not like CARM). Regarding your tone, do you intend on being disrespectful? If not, then there’s nothing to worry about. You may actually find that some people agree with you, as we have some ex-Mormons on the site. We also have some people who might have some insights I don’t. But mostly, I just don't have the time to track down all the facts for a debate. Look at how long this response is.



History of the Church (vol. 1, pg. 301). Joseph wrote, “The people of South Carolina, in convention assembled (in November), passed ordinances, declaring their state a free and independent nation...President Jackson issued his proclamation against this rebellion, called out a force sufficient to quell it, and implored the blessings of God to assist the nation to extricate itself from the horrors of the approaching and solemn crisis.” Since the ‘revelation’ in D&C 87 was given a month later it takes on a different tone (verse 1 refers to the already passed rebellion not the future start of the Civil War).
I agree. It does take on a different tone. At the time Joseph Smith wrote the above, President Andrew Jackson had already quelled the “rebellion.” Actually, one reason it never panned out was that South Carolina didn’t have the support of the other states, and Jackson knew it. Nullification wasn’t something all of the Southern states were willing to secede from the Union about. In fact, in 1862, the only reason the South went that route was because Lincoln literally forced them to. He passed a “13th Amendment to the Constitution (called the Corwin Amendment) through the House and Senate guaranteeing that the South would have the right to continue slavery in perpetuity as long as it not spread to any new state or territory. Also, the South would have to agree to the ruinous Morrill Tariff, which it simply could not do. It, more than anything, guaranteed the secession of the entire South.
So the threat of secession, if it had ever seriously existed, had already passed at the time Joseph Smith received his revelation. The Lord also stated unequivocally that the war would “terminate in the death and misery of many souls.” When war finally did come, no one thought it would be the horror that was at our doors. At the first battle of Manassas, in Virginia, hundreds of people drove out in their buggies with packed lunches to see the federal troops quickly deal with the rebellion! These same people ended up fleeing in terror as the Confederate troops trounced them, turning the battles into a bloodbath. There followed one humiliating victory after victory for the Confederates and Lincoln quickly became the most despised American leader of his time. He rescinded the writ of habeas corpus, closed more than 300 opposition newspapers, arrested and confiscated the properties of anyone even suspected of being a “secessionist,” and even issued a warrant for the arrest of a U.S. Congressman and the Supreme Court Chief Justice (a warrant he couldn’t get anyone to serve).
The was a long, terrifying series of battles in which hundreds of thousands died on each side. Lincoln even ordered Union troops from Gettysburg to New York, where he ordered the deaths of thousands of city militia who had rioted over conscription requirements. In truth, several northern states would have joined the Confederacy had it not been open to only Southern states.
Every aspect of Smith’s revelation was fulfilled in Lincoln’s war.
Verse 2 suggests that war would be poured out on all nations starting from this rebellion but in reality neither World Wars were linked to the American Civil War. In fact, if you look at the following info it is possible to see how wars have been pretty consistent across the period. What the US Civil War did do however, was introduce serious trench warfare and the wholesale industrialisation of the process.
They may not be linked in a way discernible to most, but the government that emerged from the United States’ Civil War was completely different that the government that preceded it. The new government was one where federal forces reversed positions with the states.
FACT: World War II never would have occurred had not there been a World War I. Hitler, driven by relentless hate by the Versailles Agreement, which virtually stripped Germany of its power to wage war or to, in their view, defend themselves.
FACT: The United States never would have become involved in World War I had there not been an American Civil War. The balance of power had caused the United States to interfere in the petty squabbles of Europe.
Thus, events can shape the world.

That in the event of conflict the South would call on Great Britain is a given considering the cotton trade but Great Britain didn’t join the war and therefore didn’t call on other nations (its very vague to say that at some time in the future in some war GB would call for help!)
It didn’t have to join the war directly to be fulfilled. In fact, the South did call on Great Britain and Great Britain did call on other nations. And though Britain and other nations declined direct intervention, they did try to break the U.S. blockade and send much needed materials to the South. When this didn’t work, the Confederacy attempted to break it for them by dispatching its iron clad, the Virginia. To meet this threat, the Union sent its new iron clad, the Monitor. Instead of concentrating on breaking the blockade, or holding it from the standpoint of the Union, both warships faced off and wasted their canons trying to sink each other. They spent hours with their cannon balls bouncing off each other. The Virginia thus failed to break the blockade, and the Monitor succeeded in holding it. Had the Virginia ignored the Monitor and concentrated on the vulnerable ships, it may have won the day. Britain also built two warships for the Confederacy, the Florida and the Alabama, both launched in 1862.


No Israelite remnant rose up to vex the Gentiles unless we are now linking this prophecy to the Middle East (!?)
You’re speaking of the portion that reads: “And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.” This portion also came to pass in the American West from 1861 to 1876, with the large number of Amerindian attacks including the Seminole war, the massacre of Custer near the Little Big Horn, Montana; also in the raids of Geronimo in Old Mexico and Arizona and of Apache chiefs who attained distinction in their massacres of the American Gentile along the plains from Omaha to the western reaches of San Francisco. During those years it was a continued scene of massacre and robbery of emigrants. There also are similar prophecies in the Book of Mormon where the remnants of the Lamanites will be among the Gentiles as wild animals, and will tear them in pieces. These would be those in Mexico, Guatemala and other areas to the south of the U.S. When the fabric of government collapses during the coming judgments, there will be nothing to keep them from streaming across our borders and preying on the American people.
So there’s no Middle East. The U.S. is the great Gentile nation spoken of in the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith is the prophesied “root of Jesse,” to whom the Gentiles will seek as described in Isaiah 11:11-12.
No consumption of all nations has occurred.
Not yet. But Daniel 2 describes the consummation of all nations as they are replaced by the Lord’s Kingdom. Seeing that the above prophecies have been so accurately fulfilled, I’m willing to bet this one will be as well.
There was no point in standing in Holy places since no second coming happened.
Again, yet. Keep in mind that in the Book of Mormon, the church’s critics were positive that Jesus wouldn’t be born in the Old World. Then, the sign was given of three days of continuous light. Then, 33 years later, many of those who saw the original sign had convinced themselves that it was merely a freak of nature. As the time approached for the second sign to be given, they even prepared to launch an outright offensive against the church. But they were caught off guard when the destructions came upon the land as you no doubt recall.
 
dazed but not confused
dazed but not confused 3 years ago

I have neither the time nor the inclination for a long, drawn out debate
 In fact you do with all that copy and paste crap. And then breaking down what people are saying and replying debating with them.
 
dissonance_resolved
dissonance_resolved 2 years ago

BTTT - one of the best explanations I've seen of how the BITE model and cognitive dissonance works
 

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check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
.
cedars.



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A Mormon manages to awaken from mind control with a little help from Jehovah's Witnesses...
by cedars 3 years ago 45 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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cedars
cedars 3 years ago

A brilliant, honest, well presented video...




Cedars
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 3 years ago

So no more majic underwear ?
Rub a Dub
 
Nice_Dream
Nice_Dream 3 years ago

Interesting story! I like how he was trying to find a logical reason for why JWs are persecuted. I never thought JWs destroyed families until I was on the other side.
 
Tater-T
Tater-T 3 years ago



 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

There was an example given in a recent WT about a Mormon who became a JW. The irony was that this new JW left the Mormon faith because they could not answer his questions. The Mormon leaders said that he should wait for the " light to get brighter."

Sadly, the person who made this video rushed ahead of God's Mormon Organization..
 
moshe
moshe 3 years ago

No religion or human belief is safe from the effects of confirmation bias-- JWs and Mormons have a lot invested in their religion--consequently, it is very hard to get them to objectively look at negative information .


 
frankiespeakin
frankiespeakin 3 years ago

Great presentation internet is gonna bring these psychos down too many good videos out there including all yours Ceders.
Keep up the good work!
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago



 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 years ago

The whole series is great...
If you are feeling especially bold, e-mail the link to the first one to all of your JW contacts with a note he finds the real truth later on in the series
 
happy@last
happy@last 3 years ago

Excellent find Cedars, I watched all the series except number 5 as it's blocked in the UK. Thank you for pointing it out. It's amazing the similarities there are between JW and LDS.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 3 years ago

Will check this out later. . .
 
Aunt Fancy
Aunt Fancy 3 years ago

This is what did it for me. I was interested in the FLDS, Scientologist and Amish and by reading a number of books about them I realized that I was under mind control too. Very interesting video.

 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

I'm so impressed with this video that I've written a bog post about it.
Here is the link for those who are interested...
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/a-mormon-examines-his-faith-with-a-little-help-from-jehovahs-witnesses

Cedars
 
Gojira_101
Gojira_101 3 years ago

Tag! Thanks!
 
Marvin Shilmer
Marvin Shilmer 3 years ago

-

Cedars,

From your fine article:

“If something is really true, then it should stand up to the closest possible scrutiny.”

That fundamental notion has always bothered me in relation to Watchtower.

The Watchtower organization compels Jehovah’s Witnesses to avoid criticisms leveled at its teachings by ex-members, yet what’s the point of this position regardless of which is true (i.e., either the teaching or the criticism)?

If Watchtower’s teaching is valid then it should stand the test of any criticism regardless of source. Right? If Watchtower’s teaching is invalid then Watchtower should want to know that regardless of the source. Right? But this is not how Watchtower operates.

“…real truth is always worth finding in the end.”

Learning new things can be a frightening experience depending on personal perceptions of future prospects. But it’s better to learn whatever is real as best we can learn it. Otherwise we’re trying to live in a fantasy.

Thanks for continuing your fine work!

Please keep it up!

Marvin Shilmer
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Thanks Marvin!!
Rather hilariously, a Spanish Mormon apologist is now using my blog article to leap to the defence of his church. Maybe I've bitten off more than I can chew!!
*Memo to self: don't take on more than one cult at a time.*

Cedars
 
Marvin Shilmer
Marvin Shilmer 3 years ago

-

“Maybe I've bitten off more than I can chew!!”

Cedars,

I don't think so.

Your aim is much higher than Watchtower and Mormons. Those are just two pups sucking from the same bitch. Your blog bangs away at the bitch. Right?

Marvin Shilmer
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Marvin
Your blog bangs away at the bitch. Right?
lol, I guess so! But perhaps it would be best not use those exact words as our website's new slogan!

Cedars
 
Marvin Shilmer
Marvin Shilmer 3 years ago

-

“…perhaps it would be best not use those exact words…”

Cedars,

If I’d known a new slogan was in the running I’d have used far more colorful language, but said essentially the same thing.

Marvin Shilmer
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Thanks Marvin, maybe some day I'll take you up on that offer!

Cedars
 

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A Mormon manages to awaken from mind control with a little help from Jehovah's Witnesses...
by cedars 3 years ago 45 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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wannabefree
wannabefree 3 years ago


 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

As a true believing Latter-day Saint, I found this production to be a slickly produced anti-Mormon video based on nothing but an extremely superficial straw man argument.
The differences between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are far more different than they are similar, and charts and diagrams prove little.
The similarities, according to the video, basically center around the fact that both sects:
◦are hierarchal in structure
◦are led by men said to be chosen of God
◦claim that they are God’s true church on Earth
◦believe that apostasy is a serious sin
These points also are true of Catholicism and Christian Orthodoxy, and perhaps many other sects as well. In modern times, there’s a decided antipathy towards organized religions, and people who get out of one organized religion don’t usually notice the intricacies of another.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, has many aspects that are foreign to other faiths, including the JWs. For example, the LDS church differs in these critical areas, in which they believe in:

◦Restoration: Although both the JW and LDS faiths believe in an apostasy from the ancient church, only the LDS church believes in a restoration of the gospel, with all the gifts, powers and authority of the ancient church; further, that the initiative for this Restoration came not from Earth, but from Heaven.
◦Revelation: The JWs believe that all communication was done away with the passing of the ancient church, thus ending man’s ability to commune with God or with his angels; receive visions, prophesize, or to speak by the power of the Holy Spirit.
◦Authority: Many sects believe that the authority to act in God’s name is derived from the Bible. Latter-day Saints, however, believe that authority comes from God through others in authority. Jesus told his ancient apostles, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit....” (Jøhn 15:16) The apostles held the Keys of the Kingdom, or the authority to bind on Heaven and on Earth. These keys were given to govern the authority of others in the church and prevent interlopers from claiming authority they didn’t have.
◦Apostles: The JWs believe that no more apostles or prophets were needed or called and ordained after the ancient church fell. As the chief officers of the church, apostles are special witnesses of Christ who work to spread the Gospel to other nations, direct missionary work and tend to the affairs of the church at large.
◦Church Officers: Besides apostles, the LDS church believes other officers of the ancient church were restored. These include the Seventy, Elders, Deacons, Priests, Evangelists, Bishops, and so forth.
◦Canon of Scripture: Like many Christian sects, the JWs believe in a closed canon of scriptures, made up of the Holy Bible as the complete and inerrant word of God. Like the ancient church, the LDS have an open canon. Thus, if the Lord adds to man’s knowledge by restoring or revealing new doctrines, it can be added to that canon. The LDS church, in fact, is known for its belief in the Book of Mormon, a collection of scriptures written by prophets who lived in the Western Hemisphere. As followers of Christ were called “Christians” in the First Century, so believers in the Book of Mormon (published in 1830) were called “Mormons.” (The Book of Mormon is available free from the church, or may be downloaded free from Amazon Kindle and other formats.)

These are only a few of the differences between the two religions, and there are many additional foundational and doctrinal differences.
The LDS church views the Jehovah's Witnesses as manmade organizations and we’re frequently at a loss to understand them when they criticize other Christians (including us) as “manmade.”
 
moshe
moshe 3 years ago

Confirmation bias claims another LDS stooge.


 
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 years ago

That is a beautful video.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel - you don't need to tell a forum of ex-JWs that their former religion is different to that of Mormons. That much is obvious.
What is the same, between both groups, is that vocal opponents are stigmatized as representing satanic persecution of the one true faith.
Also, both groups use mind control techniques to varying degrees. If you can't see that, maybe you are under the influence of these techniques.

Cedars
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

The common factor between all religions is faith. All that changes is the order the ingredients are mixed and the presentation of the final product. One religion may say they are true because they uniquely have men who dance in skirts, another claims they are true because they cannibalise human flesh , another claims it is true because they have new scripture and so on. Coming to this site and reading about how people feel, what the day to day consequences of faith are and how supernatural beliefs make people talk and think a certain way was fundamental in helping me see how similar we all are. I think Mormonism and Witnesses are cut from the same cloth simply because they are a product of the same culture albeit separated by a few decades. They have different peripheral doctrines and practices that are open to change ( revelation or new light) that the members mistake as core doctrines but both have the same core doctrines that the members accept but don't think about as the real heart of the faith ( unquestionable authority in the hands of a self appointed few).
I was at first dismayed and then glad to see the same real experiences simply dressed in different terminology between the two faiths as expressed here. People talked of the demands to put church before family and self by attending meetings, reaching out for responsibility, the boredom of having the same bland material each meeting, the human cost of placing untrained men in charge of others lives on such matters as relationships, social activities, gender preference, finance, approved media, clothing, medical matters, bereavement and loss counselling, punishment and so on. I found the words of encouragement ( wait on Jehovah / endure to the end) ,constraint ( don't run faster than Jehovah's chariot / follow the prophet ) and excuses for failure ( over zealous brethren / sometimes the prophet speaks as a man ) all identical in meaning but using different group buzz words.
The effects of both faiths are similar , both provide roles that allow certain people to experience high levels of influence and control, both do improve certain peoples lifestyles ( those in need of strong social support and peer pressure to avoid self harming habits like drugs), they do geberally provide comfort in times of grief, they give structure to behaviour, they induce feelings of devotion, euphoria and a strong sense of self improvement but at the cost of seeping, unrelenting guilt, the rejection of 'the world' and the handing over of self to group ( you no longer have full rights to your mind and body.)
Lastly I want to note what they do that is very, very wrong and both are culpable of. They present themselves as the ultimate source of knowledge. This has allowed them to make dangerous medical advice ( no blood / gay electro shock therapy) , to make immoral social advice ( no gay marriage / no interracial marriage ) , to lie to whomever they need to ( theocratic warfare / lying for the Lord ), to support bad science ( flood / Indians are Israelites ), to suppress education ( evolution ) , to create arbitrary rules with huge social consequences ( military service / polygamy ) , to indulge and protect the human frailties of the leaders while condemning it in the flock ( excessive drinking / adultery ) , to waste the money of its members in non charitable ways ( Beth Sarim / City Creek ) but above all to nullify thought and deny members the right to seek out knowledge from all sources - they replace scientific thought and process with blind faith and trust in the structure.
TL:DR Doctrines , words, rituals may be different but effects on the mind , members and in day to day practice are the same.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Thanks Qcmbr - I was looking forward to hearing your take on this video.

Cedars
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 years ago

Is this thread about the same article that this video is about?



 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

No slimboyfat, this doesn't appear to have anything to do with that - although it is ironic that a recent Watchtower article was declaring the organization's success in converting someone from Mormonism.
Chris' story is something you are unlikely to find discussed in the magazines!

Cedars
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 years ago

I see. I will have a look.
If Vince is right, in the video I posted, and the former Mormon complained about Mormons using the idea of "new light" to cover past mistakes, then that is very ironic indeed. Has that been discussed yet on the forum? It's the sort of comment that makes you wonder sometimes if there are subversives working in the writing department.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 years ago

SBF there was a discussion of the article at http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/242705/1/A-Mormon-becomes-a-JW-in-the-Feb-2013-Watchtower
 
fresh prince of ohio
fresh prince of ohio 3 years ago

Loved this. Thanks for sharing. "unloving and irrational" - bullseye
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

People have their own views and tend to convert to and from one religion to another for reasons that are important to them. There also are those who have lost faith in all religions, including ancient Christianity (which, by the way, was considered by both Jews and Romans to be a “cult.”)
The people who made the video of the Mormon who used the Jehovah's Witnesses to realize that his own church was essentially the same in its hierarchal structure, claims and expectations clearly have an agenda.
Qcmbr writes that “The common factor between all religions is faith. All that changes is the order the ingredients are mixed and the presentation of the final product.”
But there is more to it than that. The LDS faith puts family first. We don’t shun, nor do we try to dictate who our members associate with; we don’t dictate what our members read or don’t read, and we encourage education and learning. We have a top-down organization where people are called to positions from upper levels, as done in the ancient church. And while the JWs speak of “new light” revealed by Jehovah, they deny revelation via angels, visions, prophecy and other means. The problem is, “new light” is revelation, no matter how one looks at it.
Again, the issue is not the few superficial similarities between the LDS and JW sects, as the video purports. It’s the differences. No argument is made in the video on why the LDS faith exerts mind control, or how.
In short, the video was a puff piece. Slick, nice voice, music, script, editing and absolutely no substance or value other than to demean Mormonism.
Qcmbr also observed that “Mormonism and Witnesses are cut from the same cloth simply because they are a product of the same culture albeit separated by a few decades.” Even here the differences are overlooked. Certainly both originated in the U.S.; however, the JW and Adventist movements have more in common that the JW and LDS. The doctrines are closer, and even some of the same people were involved. But the greatest evidence backing up the LDS not only was the Book of Mormon, which no one has explained or debunked, but the many witnesses. Just as with Moses and the ancient Christian church, the LDS have many witnesses—people who not only witnessed the many miracles of the dead raised to life, the blind made to see, but the appearances of angels, like Moroni, but the conferral of keys of authority by Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist and Peter, James, John and others. It wasn’t just one guy making all sorts of fabulous claims in his time, but many other apostles and prophets—men who bore witness to the events of the Restoration.

You don't need to tell a forum of ex-JWs that their former religion is different to that of Mormons. ... What is the same, between both groups, is that vocal opponents are stigmatized as representing satanic persecution of the one true faith. Also, both groups use mind control techniques to varying degrees. If you can't see that, maybe you are under the influence of these techniques.
Okay, point one about the stigmatization of vocal opponents is true. In the early days of the church, vocal opposition always led to contention and contention always led to violence. Our people were driven from place to place, from state to state, often leaving their homes and wealth behind. We also had an extermination order issued against us by the state of Missouri. Our people were raped and murdered, including children. Even pets and livestock were brutally killed. I think applying the term “satanic” to these things isn’t over the top.
I suppose any religion can be accused of using mind control, even the ancient church. I’ve watched Darren Brown do incredible things, as well as the Amazing Kreskin, but I haven’t seen mind control used within the LDS faith.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Cold Steel
I haven’t seen mind control used within the LDS faith.
Mind control wouldn't be very effective if those under its influence were able to notice it.

Cedars
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago


Cedars - excellent point
Cold Steel - I'm not going to try and point out places where the BoM has been refuted, where those supposed miraculous healings didn't occur ( they really didnt) and where those eye witnesses you cite are mythical retellings of less impressive events. Metaphorically I hold cast iron evidence of your 'spouse' cheating on you but I absolutely understand why you wouldn't want to see the pictures, if that ever changes pm me and I'll be there for you. What I do want to address is the methods the LDS church and it's members use for brainwashing/habit forming.
1/ Children are taught biblical stories ,Book of Mormon Stories and foundational LDS stories as fact. They are praised for their acceptance of this information. They are regularly asked to repeat it in talks , primary songs, presentations and in family settings. There is naturally no access to or time given to alternate explanations . Several early concepts of wickedness, the world , Satan and fear are taught as opposition to the truth and that they must fight these things. Primary songs repeat concepts like :
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; Don't go astray.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; He knows the way.
Finally they are habituated into Mormon practises like giving ten percent of their pocket money as tithing, praying about everything, blessing food at the tables and so forth.
2/- Framing. As a child this was done to me and as a missionary I unwittingly used the same technique. Whenever I felt emotion, adrenaline, euphoria, awe, peace, extreme happiness, strong empathy or idealistic hope burnt in my chest - as long as I remember- my peers told me that that was the spirit, that was my testimony, that was god revealing to me his love. I began to associate all those beautiful parts of human emotion , especially the concentrated ones ( like the moment of the birth of my children, the first time one of my kids told me they loved me, when people did really kind things for me etc) as the results of the spirit. When I taught people on my mission I did the same,
'Mike, as we talk today, we're going to cover some special and important concepts and the spirit of god will be here <pause> it's going to feel different, you're going to feel different , in here <touch chest> and here <touch head> as we talk about the love you have for our Saviour and how he's working now in the world I want you to listen to those feelings of the Spirit.'
Low educated Mike would now have been anchored by my words to expect odd feelings and with a sense of expectation which I had framed such that, as long as he felt somewhat different to his usual self, I'd be able to claim was a divine affirmation of the whole presentation. Brainwashing / parlour trick/ neuro linguistic programming - call it what you will. It worked like a charm.
3/- Groupthink. Hymns, shared prayers, shared rituals ( blessings, baptisms, giving priesthood, sacrament, gift of the Holy Ghost etc.) , talks , lessons taught to each other, frequent visits by home teachers / visiting teachers, callings ( jobs within the church), regular administrative meetings , publically bearing testimony and so on are all behaviours that encourage certain patterns of thinking and acting ( and are repeated so frequently that they become unthought about second nature to seasoned members ) such that their is a truth that active Mormons across the world are very similar. It is almost impossible to gain acceptance in the group if you do not adhere to the phrasing, mannerisms, dress sense and ritualistic order of behaviour. Think of how uncomfortable we felt when someone did something 'incorrect' while bearing a testimony ( sang a song, went on too long, talked about something non- belief related, said something from another faith's language or cracked a joke) , people would possibly say afterwards that the spirit left the meeting or some other such idea. There is a 'hidden' set of LDS commandments more powerful than the written ones, it involves white shirts, facial hair, tattoos, earrings, musical instruments in sacrament meeting, skirt length, dancing distance, disco lighting, chaperoned lifts, missionary visit lengths, things you must not talk about, things you shoud talk about, what is gossip and what is not and so on.
4/- Double binds. Do not lie / if you don't have a testimony bear it till you get one, the first law of heaven is obedience / the spirit of the law, free agency / obey your leaders, the prophet speaks on behalf of god / sometimes the prophet speaks as a man.
TL:DR. Personal LDS examples of mind control.
 
jj123jj123
jj123jj123 3 years ago

Mormon experiences on shunning:
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/15dtd3/tbms_like_to_say_that_shunninglosing_friends_and/
My understanding is that Mormon shunning is not a formal process like with JW but more of a cultural thing.
Of course, just like with some JWs, some Mormons still associate with former members and some don't.
 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

jj123jj123
My understanding is that Mormon shunning is not a formal process like with JW but more of a cultural thing.
That's my understanding too. Shunning does happen in the LDS church - but not universally. There are no written commands as there are in Watchtower literature. It all seems to depend on what talks you listen to, or what the view of the local community (or the individual) is. If a family chooses to shun, that's fine by the church. That's my understanding anyway. Maybe Qcmbr can shed a little more light.

Cedars
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Yep - that about sums it up. Shunning is also dependant on the person involved and the circumstances of their exit. Go out in a blaze of glory sending emails with damning church history details is a rapid way to get cultural shunning. If you exit slowly or just stop going you may well experience the opposite - very active attempts to reconnect and be involved from Home Teaching and missionary visits right through to being asked to do things at church (a calling such as teaching). If you make it clear you're an apostate you may get an official declaration made to avoid you but oddly enough even that is very patchy. I've not hidden my exit or antipathy and I get missionaries, member visits, big cheery smiles and chats in public and no real evidence of shunning. I think a lot of what goes for cultural shunning in the UK (I can't speak for other countries) is more the uncomfortableness of not knowing what to say to someone who has exited rather than a 'must not speak, god will punish me' JW doctrine. That said - as a kid - I shunned my school friend who exited but I didn't do it consciously , just didn't know how to handle it.
 
moshe
moshe 3 years ago

Mormons don't shun? hahaha- maybe they call it the, cold shoulder treatment, instead. Of course that is an improvement from the Mormon's Mountain Meadows days in the 1800's-- back then they killed you with a musket ball to the head.
 
Hillary
Hillary 3 years ago

The Mormon religion does appear to be much less emotionally traumatic than JW, especially for children. If I had to choose one of the 2 religions when I was a kid, I would definitely choose Mormon. They're allowed to celebrate birthdays, holidays, can salute the flag, national anthem, plus a whole lot of other stuff.
 

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a brilliant, honest, well presented video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s4hqkiiz5a.
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cedars.



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A Mormon manages to awaken from mind control with a little help from Jehovah's Witnesses...
by cedars 3 years ago 45 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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Dismissing servant
Dismissing servant 3 years ago

An interesting parallell. The structure og cults are similar.

I our swedish XJW community we had a mormon girl who were very active defending mormonism during the autumn last year. We had a lot of debate. There was a case in wich a mormon psychiatrist recruited his patien, a teenage girl, to the mormon church. Her parents reported this to the police and to the medical association. This mormon lady was very ipset that the parents of the youg girl reported this psychiatrist, and calling the mormon church a cult.
But, yesterday she wrote again on the forum telling us that she had left the mormon church since a while. She started to see similariteis between mormonism and the JW's, especially control and manipulation. She could not believe what she really wrote during the autumn. She seems to feel much happier now, her parets and her friends have told her that she has changed a lot!

http://hjalpkallan.se/forum/showthread.php?t=12569&page=19
 
nugget
nugget 3 years ago

very interesting I woke up partly by looking at the history of the Mormon faith can work both ways.
 
TD
TD 3 years ago

Very interesting and well done video.
A basic similarity between the JW and LDS faiths is simply the esoteric nature of their respective doctrines. It forces individual members to have opinions on and argue for positions that are difficult to defend and above the average person's head.
Can the average Mormon even begin to explain the presence of a Greek idiom idiosyncratic to only one book of the Bible in the BOM? Even if you assume for the sake of argument that the BOM is what it is claimed to be, the fact that this question comes up at all is still an embarassing anomaly.
Can the average JW even begin to explain the ambiguous wording of John 1:1? Even if you assume for the sake of argument that JW's are right when it comes to the diety of Christ, the fact that this question comes up at all is still an embarassing anomaly.
 
00DAD
00DAD 3 years ago

Cedars,
Thanks for sharing. Great blog article too, BTW!
00DAD
 
TD
TD 3 years ago

Yes, Cedar's blog article is priceless.
 
moshe
moshe 3 years ago

The the book of Mormon reads like a clone of the King James Bible, if you are going to translate something you use the common language of your time period- and as TD pointed out, you don't include older Bible translation errors-
Every civilization leaves trash behind. Rubbish heaps tell us how ancient peoples lived- Those ancient lost tribes of Israel who according to Joseph Smith came to America in 600BC and established a great empire that lasted until 400AD- except, no artifacts and no trash has been found, no coins that the BOM says they used for money, and native Americans test negative for semitic dna. The Mormons have had about 10 years to deal with the dna results- for the most part, they have chosen to ignore the facts= their Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, not a heavenly revelation. What else do you call that, but a voluntary form of mind control-- and I never got to the Joseph Smith ancient Egyptian scam he pulled on everyone- he claimed to be able to translate hieroglyphics- before anyone else could. The Rosetta stone finally proved that Joseph Smith was a charlatan when it comes to his ancient Egyptian translation.--
dna-
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-07-26-dna-lds_x.htm

It seems they knew all about metal working-- and maybe they even had a working iron foundry!!- They Mormons just haven't located these coins or that mythical iron works-
Ether 10:23, ( the Jaredites did) "work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron... and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore of gold, and silver, and iron..
Iron could have saved the Aztecs from Cortez, except they used obsidian spears and clubs- iron working technology would not have been forgotten- it would have given any native Americans who had iron technology power over all of the Americas- stone, flint and copper can't stand up to iron.
 

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a brilliant, honest, well presented video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s4hqkiiz5a.
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Which type of "Apostate" is worse? An Atheist/Agnostic or one who joins a New Organized Religion?
by QuestioningEverything 5 years ago 18 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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QuestioningEverything
QuestioningEverything 5 years ago

Sorry, I posted this in another section. Meant to put it here.
Just wondering which kind is worse to active JW's? My Aunt used to be a JW but now she is a Mormon. I used to be a JW but now I am Agnostic.
Think there is a difference on how most JW's feel about this?
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 5 years ago

there's going to be different camps on this one.
For me, when I was under mind control, I'd probably think someone going to another Church was dangerous. whereas an agnostic wasn't really going fully 'apostate' and might start believing in Jah again and return to the cancerous 'filthful silava cl-a$$'
Oh, how times have changed for me.............I've become that which I feared!
 
sizemik
sizemik 5 years ago

Mmmmm . . . trying to put my JW hat on . . . ?
Atheism is worse I think . . . marginally. Godless . . . denying his very existence.
Leaving WT for another religion . . . maybe more "foolish" in the eyes of the "superior" self appointed owners of truth
It's a tough one
 
No Room For George
No Room For George 5 years ago

One thing I recall from the old Flock book was that those ones baptized with sincere doubts should be shown mercy and assisted where possible. On the other hand, when it came to someone who decided to join a church the language was more harsh. It was something like, "they're already under judgement."
As far as most JWs feel, I don't think there's anyway to gauge that because there's no way a JW will ever be honest regarding this subject. Me personally, if a person joined a church, to me at least it would appear they followed their heart and considering we're not to judge anyone, that's between them and God and I shouldn't condemn them. When it comes to Agnostics, I feel they're the only honest people left on this planet.
 
trevor
trevor 5 years ago

Joining a new religion is worse, because losing faith in god is considered a personal failing.
Deciding that a rival religion is better than the Watchtower Society, is betrayal of the highest kind.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 5 years ago

In my short time on the planet, I've come to realize that SOME people NEED to be told what to do. They cannot thrive unless they operate with CERTAINTY.

I prefer to embrace the unknown. I will die, not knowing the answers to countless questions that many consider to be of utmost importance.
 
trebor
trebor 5 years ago


In my short time on the planet, I've come to realize that SOME people NEED to be told what to do. They cannot thrive unless they operate with CERTAINTY.

I prefer to embrace the unknown. I will die, not knowing the answers to countless questions that many consider to be of utmost importance.



 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 5 years ago

The one who dares t join another religion. That's the worst one, because it is like going back to Babylon the Great Harlot, caught by Satan and Demons and become their tool, for sure a person like that is possed by Satan.
So if you wish to leave JW's try to avoid telling them that you will join another religion.....
 
Mad Sweeney
Mad Sweeney 5 years ago

This is a tough question. My parents who are still in but understanding of my decision keep asking me if I still believe in God. Other JWs who my wife runs into on occasion around town invariably ask her if we're attending another church. I know that the root of both questions is a desire to know how to judge us. I don't know which is viewed as worse by more people, though.
 
nugget
nugget 5 years ago

Now I am not a JW I feel no need to judge others. I appreciate that most people have something to offer and someones religious choices do not make them more or less worthy than someone else.
I prefer to evaluate what they say and the advice they offer rather than filter this through my old JW worth o meter.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 5 years ago

I think many Witnesses find it easier to deal mentally with those who lose faith altogether. Those who swap the truth for another religion, especially Evangelical Christianity, are clearly demonic. There is no other explanation for accepting the Trinity than demon influence.
 
Fadeout
Fadeout 5 years ago

They love to bring up the dog returning to its vomit in reference to anyone who joins another church... I think that joining forces with Babylon the Great is probably worse.
 
Twitch
Twitch 5 years ago

Why define oneself with their terms or give consideration to whats "worse"? Why give power to them with reference to what you do after leaving? Let go, Luke,...
 
steve2
steve2 5 years ago

Why define oneself with their terms or give consideration to whats "worse"? Why give power to them with reference to what you do after leaving? Let go, Luke,...
How annoying - you take the time to ask a question that is important to you and you get a reply that asks you Why bother asking? Hey, that poster could have helped by not responding at all if it really was not important to them. Go figure!
I take it the question is important to you so here goes: To start, apostasy is worse than sins of the flesh because at least the sinner has disobeyed rules and not overtly believed or taught something different. Sinners squirm in the dark probably intending to come back when they come to their senses - or so the reasoning goes.
By contrast, apostates generally don't hide or apologize (although they may play the game for family reasons). Apostates by definition have not only rejected the claimed authority of a group (e.g., 'the faithful and discreet slave') to tell them what to do but have embraced an alternative source of authority (religion or science).
Therefore, whether the alternative source is religious or non-religious doesn't matter: each has its "demonizing" aspects. it would be like asking, what is a worse course of action after I've robbed a bank and laundered the money: Give the money to my favourite institution or put it into a secret bank account for my own use. Neither is worse. Both are equally to be condemned. Ditto JWs views on apostasy.
 
Terra Incognita
Terra Incognita 5 years ago

QuestioningEverything, Post #418:
"Just wondering which kind is worse to active JW's? My Aunt used to be a JW but now she is a Mormon. I used to be a JW but now I am Agnostic."
From the point of view of Jehovah's Witnesses, in general, Fundamentalist Christians are feared much more than Atheist/Agnostics. Although Mormons are technically Fundamentalists, they are too "exotic" and out in the fringe to qualify as much of a danger.
One can use the Coke & Pepsi vs 7 Up & Mountain Dew. There is far more competition between look-alikes that there is between un-alikes. Coke drinkers are more likely to be convinced to drink Pepsi than 7 Up and vice a versa.
The same principle applies in evolutionary competition. There is more competition amongst animals and plants in identical or overlapping niches (ecological lifestyle) than there are between different niches. Two creatures in the same general environment, let's say treetops, will clash with each other over resources much more than two creatures in different locations; such as treetop vs ground dwellers.
In similar manner, Fundamentalists, are more similar to JWs than either are to atheists. Both of them have little to fear from atheists (in small numbers) proselityzing their own but are more defensive against each other.
 
Twitch
Twitch 5 years ago

@steve2 - Clearly you missed the point of my response, which is to preclude asking the question of which is worse by asking the reason why it's bad/wrong in the first case. Why is it wrong to be apostate, period? Futhermore, who says you're apostate anyways? Is it important to define oneself with an ideology you reject? If so, why? I understand about family and playing the game of appearing to be acceptable and not being labelled as apostate but if you've crossed the line into apostasy as they define it, you're dogmeat anyways, so why give the proverbial rat's ass? In this case, the answer is irrelevant as you've pointed out; they don't care about the reasons why one is apostate. So why should I? Perhaps I wished to dismiss the question and it's importance to the questioner by pointing out that one is no longer bound or defined by what they think after leaving. Perhaps realizing this rill help one to break free.
 
talesin
talesin 5 years ago

The only JWs I know are my parents, and from my dad, I quote,

"if you ever decide to attend another church, you won't be welcome here"
(barring weddings & funerals, he meant as a believer)

Doesn't make much difference to me, as I am an atheist, and have been for many years, but that's a pretty disgusting thing to say to your only daughter. Especially one who has shown respect for their choice to believe whatever crazy horse$h*t the WTBS throws at them for so many years.

True Christian love, indeed. tsk, tsk, what would Jesus say?
(and I don't say that to make fun because although I do not share their belief systems, I respect Christians when they practice what they preach)

t
 
d
d 4 years ago

Since I am an athiest it has caused with some people I know.Some people can not deal with atheism.
 
panhandlegirl
panhandlegirl 4 years ago

I think joining another Church/Religion is considered worse. I became a Catholic. When my jw mother asked me why I told her she was the one who had baptized me into the Catholic Church as a baby. All I did was return to
my roots. That did not go over well. My jw cousins say I am like a dog that has returned to it's vomit. Oh well. Whatever. Two of my df'd brothers don't believe in God or the Bible, I don't know what they belive.
'
 

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Which type of "Apostate" is worse? An Atheist/Agnostic or one who joins a New Organized Religion?
by QuestioningEverything 5 years ago 4 Replies latest 5 years ago   social current
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QuestioningEverything
QuestioningEverything 5 years ago

Just wondering which kind is worse to active JW's? My Aunt used to be a JW but now she is a Mormon. I used to be a JW but now I am Agnostic.
Think there is a difference on how most JW's feel about this?
 
Amelia Ashton
Amelia Ashton 5 years ago

I think becoming agnostic or even atheist you are considered spiritually weak and some may even believe with more study, meetings blah blah blah you could be persuaded to go back, but joining Babylon the Great is waaaaaaaay more evil as you have allied yourself with the devil.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

I think the most important issue is one of credible honesty in what we align ourselves with.
Once we adopt the policy of a group and take upon ourselves an identification with that group our integrity is at stake
if we do no due diligence in vetting what valid facts affirm that group.
If we, for instance, joined a club only to discover they were racists it would be incumbent upon us to disavow them as soon as possible
and as strongly as possible.
But, if we simply shrugged our shoulders and said, "I don't go along with THAT part of the group, but, I like the rest of what they stand for"
this would taint us and poison our own credibility.
Being an APOSTATE to a racist group would ge a GOOD thing, would it not?

The Watchtower Society REFRAMES the issue of integrity into one of LOYALTY to leadership.
This is intellectual dishonesty.
Loyalty is not the core issue. Reality in the face of facts is the core issue.
Jehovah's Witnesses rob people of their right to see the world and see life AS IT REALLY IS by substituting a FALSE reality.
It is LOYALTY to this false reality which leadership DEMANDS.

A skeptical believer demonstrates integrity to fact based reality.
A LOYAL believer who questions nothing has surrendered their integrity to mere social pressure and non-identity as an individual.

The true test of a person is how rigorously they demand REALITY in their view of all groups and leaders.
Leaving a group with contempt for reality is the finest demonstration of integrity possible.
APOSTATES to cult membership show a healthy sense of life.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 5 years ago

Yes there is a difference, but it might not be the same for all JW's.
I think most will see going to Christendom or other religious beliefs as worse- a dog returning to it's vomit.
Others, in the minority in my opinion, will see atheism as abandonment of spirituality.
Most JW's assume the worst if they think someone has abandoned the truth, so I suppose it doesn't matter for them.
Sorry if I am all over the map. JW to Mormonism- that's whacked.
 
QuestioningEverything
QuestioningEverything 5 years ago

'JW to Mormonism- that's whacked.'
Yes, it is and very confusing to me. My aunt seems happy and although I think it was strange to jump from one cult to another, I love her and it's her business.



 

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JW at My Door Admits That She’s Had Doubts
by Broken Promises 5 years ago 15 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

The background: A female JW who introduced herself as Lisa came to my door a couple of weeks ago with a Memorial invitation. I acknowledged that I knew what it was about, and had asked her why they don’t accept the wine and bread. We had a discussion about that, with me stating that the Bible only gives a heavenly hope, not an earthly one. I don’t believe in the Bible anymore, but I haven’t let on. Nor have I let on that I used to be a JW – to explain any knowledge I have I said I had relatives who are JWs (true).

She’d called back a week ago with some printed WT info on the paradise etc. I wasn't home when she called but she left it in an envelope under my door. I started to read it but I couldn’t stand reading it – it literally started to make me feel sick.

Anyway, she called again today. She was alone, and I suspect she’s a pioneer. Partly because she was alone at 1.30pm, and just from her demeanor etc.

She’d brought back a Jan 1 WT on the Garden of Eden. I haven’t read that yet but I will. I’m sure there was a thread here on that mag so I’ll look it up. Personally I don’t really care if the Garden of Eden was real or fake but I didn’t say anything. I’m trying to be polite without putting my big apostate foot in my mouth!

She offered the “What Does the Bible Teach” booklet. I hadn’t seen it before. I was disappointed to see how cheap looking it appeared compared to the books and booklets from when I was in. I (politely I hope) declined it saying I knew what the JW teachings were. She started on the “accurate knowledge” spiel and showed me the usual scriptures.

We covered a few things, such as the number of religions under the name of Christianity. I could see how she was trying to imply that only one religion could be “the truth” but I countered that by saying that it would be very arrogant for a religion to claim that it’s the spokesman for God and that it’s the only way to “the truth”.

She then claimed that they don’t look down on other religions. Oh really, I thought! So I brought out how back in the 50s they were very much against the Catholics and said some pretty strong things about them. She defended that by using Jesus’ example of denouncing false religion. But… she then quietly made the comment that she personally doesn’t look down on other religions. Hmmmm….

So I asked her – what if you studied the Bible and found the Bible said something that contradicted what your religion teaches? If you had prayed to God for help, and no matter what, the Scriptures obviously said something different to your religion? She then said she would go to the elders “in a humble manner” (her words) and talk to them. She said she had had doubts in the past, and that this is what she’d done. She stressed going to them in a humble manner. Ok….

She then went on with the subject of 1975 and said she’d looked up what the Society had said, due to objections at the door. She admitted some of what they printed may had given individuals the idea that 1975 was the date for Armageddon. I said, “But who gave the individuals that idea?” She still tried to defend the Society when she mentioned the apology they gave. I didn’t let on that I knew what they’d said in the “apology”, as I had in the past printed off all the articles the Society had printed on the subject. Maybe in a later discussion I’ll mention it.

Anyway, I brought up that in our previous discussion she had said that Judas had left the room before they passed the bread and wine. I asked, “Where do you get that idea?” I said there was nothing in the Bible to indicate that he’d left before that moment. She said it was a good question and that she’d do “research”. Later I thought, I should have said, why not just read the Bible account? So we left at that because she’d been there for a good 20 mins and she said she’d come back after doing her research.

Oh, when we were talking about different religions I asked if she’d ever researched other religions. She admitted she’d been raised as a JW since she was a toddler and got baptised at 18. She said she had some publications from other religions such as the Book of Mormon, and that she’d read what other religions said in their publications which had been printed in the WT’s publications. She also mentioned the “Man’s Search for God” book (not by name but I knew what she was referring to) as also part of her study of other religions.

The thing is, I can see myself in her. I was also a devoted believer of the WT’s teachings, and believed that I had “the Truth” sincerely in my heart. I can see she’s the same as how I was. I’m not sure where to take this discussion. I want to make her think, by asking questions that might make her think about things from a different point of view. It’s not my intent to destroy her faith, just to help remove those WT blinkers that prevent her from seeing the organisation for what it is.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 5 years ago

You did well. I'm proud of you.
Most of us scare them off at the first visit.
Try not to let on that you have any more knowledge of Dubland than you already have. Stoopid is goood. Think Forest Gump.
Ask a question with great sincerity and really want an answer. Remember that she 'knows' she is a teacher with a message to save your sorry arse from her killer god. Play the part of a serious learner with questions.
Read the latest WT for Dummies to remind yourself of what warning signs she is looking for so that you can play the WT's game without breaking the rules.



Chris
 
smiddy
smiddy 5 years ago

Good for you BP
I don`t know whether this can help or not ,just a suggestion: Way back in the 60`s or 70`s their was a year text and calender about the 3 hebrews in the book of daniel ch.3. who would not bow down, as this would be seen as an" act of worship". C.T Russell and his followers took note of the scripture in php.2:10 "in the name of jesus every knee should bend" as an indication jesus was to be worshipped ,which they did.Since then that idea has been disbanded by the borg. The scriptures have never changed these past 2 centuries ,however the watchtowers interpretations of scripture have changed numerous times in 130 odd years.
smiddy
 
sizemik
sizemik 5 years ago

The thing is, I can see myself in her.
I can see she’s the same as how I was.
Your half way there on that score BP. Cast your mind back (if you can bear it) to those bad old days . . . it'll give you a good handle, and the right frame of mind I reckon.
Maybe pick on the subject that tweeked her the most last time (if there was one). Then gently corner her on that. Sounds like your expecting her back . . . you could be in for some fun times here!
Your doing this gal a monster favour . . .  nice going
PS; Hope this makes sense . . . had a few
 
finding my way
finding my way 5 years ago

I wish I had read this thread earlier. I really like your approach. They came to my door a couple weeks back for the same reason (memorial season) I told her "I was df'd 6 years ago and I have no intention of returning. Also, please don't send an elder back becuase I don't wish to discuss it with them. thank you for your time" sort of thing. I wish I had been more patient and thoughtful.
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 5 years ago

nicely done
one day they will come to my door (we moved to an area where i am unknown) and i hope to not blow it!
old me used to tell them i was D/F and no, dont come back...
oz
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

I never da'd or got df'd so technically she can talk to me without getting into trouble. But I will have to be careful to not sound like a horrid apostate, lol!
Thanks for your feedback (so far).
 
exwhyzee
exwhyzee 5 years ago

Don't you just feel sorry for that Sister ....standing there all alone presenting the teachings of a faceless organization...haven't we all been in that position before ? That of having been sent out to teach or defend something we haven't fully looked into from all angles for ourselves because we weren't supposed to question what we were taught.
I'm glad you took it easy on her....these kind of discoveries can really rock your world, when you've grow up as a Witness.
 
sinis
sinis 5 years ago

You really do not have to target a religion per se. Just focus on the foundations of Christianity, and ESPECIALLY the Bible - Church fathers, Eusebius, etal. and focus on the fact that they use a book that was compiled by the evil slave some 1700 year ago...
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

Re the "evil slave" - I've thought that if she ever shows me the scripture on the "faithful and discreet slave" then I will ask who the "evil slave" is. After all, if the faith and discreet slave is a real entity, then so should be the evil slave. And if she can't put her finger on who the evil slave is, then how can we be absolutely sure who/what the faithful slave is?
 
smiddy
smiddy 5 years ago

I think they would simply say the "evil slave is primarily the Roman Catholic Church and the rest of christendom which has sprung from her, making up the Babylon the Great class "
smiddy
 
sinis
sinis 5 years ago

Ok, Smiddy, then my next question would be, "Why do you use a book constructed by this "slave"?"
 
moshe
moshe 5 years ago

Thank you Sab, for dealing kindly with this JW, but kind words are easily dismissed as "weak words", by most JWs. You can keep trying for as long as she lets you talk to her.- good luck.
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

Umm, I'm Broken Promises, not Sab.
 
regal1
regal1 5 years ago

Umm. I reject the JW's, and I know longer believe in anything spernatural. Having said that, and in the interest of keeping things real: As a JW for decades, with plenty of pioneering time, I very seldom met any person who had read the Bible as much as i did, or as much as my friends had. When this rare event did happen, it usually involved a spirited but futile argument on the trinity or other such abstractions. It's misleading to suggest that JW's are less well-read than average members of other religions. Large numbers of people don't know a damn thing about their religion. It's also pointless to suggest that JW beliefs, which are quite silly, are somehow more silly than anyone else's. Really? Wine turns into Jesus' blood? The Rapture? The JW's reject certain silliness, while embracing others.
I do feel for that woman. Doubting can be a terrible feeling. But it can lead to something good. I hope that she's able, finally, to escape from the whole business, from god, demons, everything. That's true freedom.
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

Hi regal1,
hi and welcome to the board! Yes, I feel for the woman too. I remember there was a door I went to once where the guy asked a question and although I tried to bluff my way through it, I knew that he'd got me. And it tortured my mind that he was correct and I, as a JW, couldn't answer his question correctly using JW doctrine.
I enjoy my discussions with her, and I suspect she does too. I live in a very religiously conservative area so I doubt she gets much discussion at all. And it certainly dusts out the old cobwebs in my mind!
 

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religious titles
by man in black 5 years ago 2 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw experiences
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man in black
man in black 5 years ago

Back when I was a witness, the normal thing that the society wanted people to do is call members of the congregation by their title
EX : brother xxxx, or sister vvvvv,
fast forward to today. My wife, after leaving the jw religion jumped over to becoming a mormon. Their security blanket is their titles.
For example, when those youmg white shirted boys come over they expect to be called elder xxxx ( a young teenage kid,,, come on)
my wife is always sister ______.
yet they had no problem calling me by my first name only.
whenever I would attend a get together everyone was elder / brother / sister / bishop.
OK
Last week some young kids came over with their mother, and the conversation followed this line :
why hello sister _____, how is brother ____ ?
The kids would always address everyone by brother, sister, bishop, elder.
Yet when I came in, everyone just called me by my first name (even the kids).
To me this sounds like a sort of religious indoctination to children. Everyone who is a member of the church( who has a title) is held up on the platform. If you are not a member, we will just call you by your first name,,,, no MR, or sir, just an eight year old calling me by my name.
Sounds a little strange to me.
 
wobble
wobble 5 years ago

Cults are strange. They are also very rude when it comes to such matters, it is a case of if you are in the cult, be it WT or Mormon or whatever, you will be treated O.K but if not they treat you with disdain.
I am getting this from members of my family who are WT/JW cult-members, simply because we left the cult some years ago we are not treated even as well as other relatives who were never in it ! They are rude, in my opinion, to those relatives too in some ways, but they are rougher on us, to "bring us to our senses" I suppose.
They do not realise that we came to our senses, and left the cult, we treat everybody, even cult members like them , with respect and compassion.
Two words they do not have in their vocabulary.
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

It's also a generational thing. I was raised to call older people as Mr, Mrs, "Brother", "Sister"...
These days young people haven't been taught to do that.
 

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When Sects are Cults
by Lunatic Faith 5 years ago 10 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw experiences
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Lunatic Faith
Lunatic Faith 5 years ago

I know this is a long post and I'm sorry. But this is a paper I wrote for my sociology final this term. I was supposed to look at some aspect of my life sociologically. If you have the patience to read it I would appreciate some input on what you think of it and if my reasoning is sound. (I haven't read Combatting Cult MInd Control yet because this school year has been so busy. Hoping to read it this summer:) Thank you from LUna

When Sects are Cults
Compared to almost every other high-income country, the United States has surprisingly managed to maintain their religiosity. Religiosity is defined as the importance of religion in one's life (Macionis, 2009, p. 398). The U.S. can even claim some homegrown faiths which have become some of the fastest growing religions in our day. My family has extensive and generational adherence to two of these religions: Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
A church is defined as a religious organization that is well integrated into the larger society, persists for centuries, has a formally trained clergy class, and recognizes the right of others to have different beliefs. Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Judaism would all qualify as churches (Macionis, 2009, p. 396).
A sect is a religious organization that stands apart from the larger society. Its members have rigid religious convictions and deny the beliefs of others, which cause outsiders to view them as "narrow-minded" for insisting that they alone follow the true religion. Sects attract more disadvantaged people who find their promise of salvation appealing. A high rate of turnover usually requires sects to proselytize aggressively to maintain their numbers (Macionis, 2009, p. 396-397). Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses would qualify as sects.
Cults are religious organizations that function outside society's cultural traditions. They usually form around a charismatic group or leader who offers a compelling message of a new and different way of life. Cults set themselves apart for they exist at odds with society in general and usually require its members to adopt a radically new lifestyle (Macionis, 2009, p. 397).
I previously mentioned my association with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. My father's family has been Mormon since the religion was founded by Joseph Smith in 1830. However, my father chose to convert to Jehovah's Witness when he was only 20 years old. This was 1953. He was told by his 12 brothers and sisters that they would disown him. His own wife threatened him with divorce if he left the faith. He saw a need to follow his heart and was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. His wife immediately left him, taking their baby daughter with her.
My father left medical school because he was informed Armageddon was only about six months away, and got a job as a crane operator for the railroad in Ogden, Utah. After five years of this back-breaking toil, he met and married my mother-also one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Her family had been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses almost from the beginning-about the time of World War I. After five years of further full-time ministry they decided to start a family and moved 700 miles away from the Mormon family to prevent any indoctrination of me or my siblings. They settled in Central Oregon. Seven years later I was born-1972.
I was only a few days old when I went out in the door-to-door ministry for the first time. Meetings were held 5 times a week and ministry was required every Saturday morning and sometimes on Sunday after services. I never remember liking the ministry or the meetings. Meetings would usually result in me or my brothers getting spanked at least once for not being quiet enough. I would try to hide to avoid going to meetings.
My mother was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis when I was too young to remember but I vividly remember her quick decline. She was bed-ridden by the time I was nine. This was when things got bad. Looking back now I feel I was forced to live life by the Braille method, with little to no direction from my parents who had other things on their minds. Our adherence to the sect of Jehovah's Witnesses remained constant during this time as my father was a strict patriarch with rock-solid faith. This didn't help my feeling of isolation and loss. I couldn't celebrate holidays or birthdays, or salute the flag, or go stay the night at friend's houses.
My mother died when I was nineteen. I used her death as the incentive I needed to submerge myself fully in the Jehovah's Witness faith. According to their creed, all loved ones would be resurrected after Armageddon. I was convinced Armageddon would be here before the year 2000 and that meant I could see my mother again. I entered into the full-time ministry like my parents and fully immersed myself in the faith. Since Armageddon was "just around the corner" I avoided college so I could serve more fully.
The years passed and I stayed faithful, but couldn't maintain the same level of commitment. I started to realize I was becoming emotionally unhinged due to the constant pressure to achieve and measure up to "God's" requirements. I decided to slow down and try to regain my sanity.
I buried my father three months ago-a disappointed old man who had expended his life on a system of beliefs that had only managed to bring him sadness. He never gave up hope that Armageddon would come and he wouldn't have to see death, but he was disappointed once again.
Just as my mother's death invigorated my faith, my father's death killed it. I was not going to finish my life as my father had-he had given up everything to devote himself fully to his faith. And what did he have to show for it? Humiliation, isolation, and persecution.
Once I stopped association with the religion of my childhood, my authentic self began to emerge. I began to heal. I decided to see a therapist during this time and she helped me to see that I had value and needn't judge myself based on the tenets of a marginal group. The number of people with experiences similar to mine is in the thousands.
According Society by John J. Macionis, "most people who join cults suffer no psychological harm" (Macionis, 2009, p. 397). If that were true, there wouldn't be widespread literature and therapy to combat cult mind-control. The damage of being in a controlling religion that guides every aspect of a person's life has been well documented. Jehovah's Witnesses have an authoritarian leadership in that even the minutest aspects of life are controlled by the Governing Body of 9-12 men who live in New York. Things such as health concerns, choices of entertainment, sexual acts performed by married couples, how to dress, how to act, how to speak, and how to worship are all controlled in a subtle manner that makes adherents imagine they are making the proper decisions for themselves based upon ambiguously applied "Bible principles".
According to Time magazine in 2008, Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) lose two-thirds of their born-ins. This high rate of turnover explains the aggressive proselytism each member must engage in (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1716987,00.html). Totalitarianism is a highly centralized system that extensively regulates people's lives and may explain why born-ins leave Jehovah's Witnesses so frequently. From the outside, this relatively harmless sect could be considered normative in that association is voluntary, but once someone becomes an active and baptized member their association is coercive and restrictive (Macionis, 2009, p. 130-131). If a baptized member decides to leave the sect they are disfellowshipped:
If the person rejected their loving admonition and continued to promote a sect, a committee of elders could disfellowship, or expel, such one for apostasy. (2 Timothy 2:17; Titus 3:10, 11) The individual brothers and sisters in the congregation would follow Paul's direction to "avoid" the one who tried to "cause divisions." John counseled similarly: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."-2 John 10 (Watchtower, 1986, p. 31).
This disciplinary action is excused as loving when in fact it is highly damaging and happens more often than implied by the quote. Families have split up after one of its members is disfellowshipped. People have even killed themselves because such ones are avoided by everyone they know and love within the JW organization. Many others choose to remain within a faith they no longer believe in just to avoid losing their parents, spouse, and children (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/).
When one enters the JW religion, in-group association is strongly encouraged and the congregation becomes ones family and only friends. This maintains a groupthink environment which encourages conformity and results in a narrow view (Macionis, 2009, p. 126). Something else that reinforces this "narrow view" is information control. Opposition literature, interfaith literature, and University educations are strictly discouraged so the groupthink mindset remains untainted. Frequent meetings, regular ministry, and mandatory "family" and "personal" study help even more to reinforce the groupthink and exclude anything that could force a person to reevaluate their belief system (Watchtower, 2008, p.3-11) . The ban on University education creates ever more narrow mindsets and susceptible adherents. Minimal education equals low socio-economic members, which gives these people even more reasons to remain faithful and look to rescue by God.
With these things in mind, wouldn't it be logical to say that this religion may qualify as a cult--a cult that does cause long term emotional and personal damage to its adherents?
JW's are convinced they are the one true religion and everyone who is not a member will die at Armageddon as sinners. This creates a social-conflict between the faithful and those they must work alongside. The in-group mentality helps prevent too much outside association so acceptance that everyone is going to die becomes easier. Jehovah's Witnesses also focus on the bad in the world because this reinforces their belief that "Armageddon must be near". This results in a rather negative view of the world in general and widespread mental illness amongst Jehovah's Witnesses is a testament to the long-term effects of this mindset (http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/mental-issues.php).
I was raised in a working class family, but my father's hard work and savings has provided me my house which is providing my education. I already live a life of more enjoyment than he ever had and I have more luxuries because I am willing to spend the money. I don't know if that could be called intergenerational social mobility or simply the tendency of Generation X to spend more and save less. What I do know is that life is more optimistic without religion and I feel in more control of my destiny.

References
Biema, David Van (2008, February 25). America's Unfaithful Faithful. Time. Retrieved from http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1716987,00.html
Macionis, John J. (2009). Society the Basics (10 th ed.). Upper Saddle River, NJ; Pearson Education, Inc.
Questions From Readers. (1986, October 15). The Watchtower, p. 31.
Repudiate Valueless Things. (2008, April 15). The Watchtower, p. 3-11.
 
palmtree67
palmtree67 5 years ago

That was very well written and quite poignant.
Did you get graded on it yet?
 
VM44
VM44 5 years ago

Thanks for posting this.
Here is a web page with links to articles about Jehovah's Witnesses and Mind Control. It might be useful.
http://www.freeminds.org/psychology/mind-control/
 
saltyoldlady
saltyoldlady 5 years ago

Excellent material - just excellent. Thank you for sharing, Luna - shall not call you Lunatic because you have definitely proven yourself quite the opposite! And my heart feels so saddened for what you have experienced in your early life.
Another book I just recently finished reading on Mind Control was The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen. It confirms your points and adds a few more - is a much quicker and easier read than the old Lifton, and other classics in this field and would be my preference to recommend to someone first investigating the possibility of making a change - the subtitle is Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority within the church - and the points can be applied even to churches not technically classified as cults but as a manual to avert veering off in damaging directions.
 
Lunatic Faith
Lunatic Faith 5 years ago

Haven't gotten graded yet, palmtree. I will post it once I know:smile:
VM44--I definitely need to spend more time reading freeminds. I have been on there a little bit but will look up the article you recommend. Thanks
saltyoldlady--Once I decided to leave I feel like my desire to read was renewed. I got so tired of reading the same old stuff published by the WT, but would feel guilty if I read anything else. Now I want to read everything I can get my hands on!! So I will check out your books
Thank you for reading it
 
witnessofjesus
witnessofjesus 5 years ago

Yes, Faith, I really enjoyed your well prepared paper. It was, shall I say, refreshing? Yes, refreshing indeed! What school are you going to these days?
Also, I do have one question for those who are JW or are still 'in' thought really 'out', what is the WTS position on their members attending 'on-line' colleges and universities? If one were to attend these, there would be very limited 'association' with unbelievers, and would this be permissible vice the traditional schooling earlier generations had no choice but to attend and live on campus?
I'd be interested to know, or have they not addresses this issue yet?
 
Lunatic Faith
Lunatic Faith 5 years ago

I am currently attending a community college in my area, but hoping to transfer so I can get a Bachelor's degree.
I am not aware of an official stand on 'online' courses. It would probably depend on the subject. Vocational schools are alright by some JW's standards since they usually require less time commitment and are focused.
The main thing the JW's discourage--other than the association thing as you mentioned--is teachings that would conflict with 'Bible/WTS' teachings like science or philosophy. The problem with just seeking out a degree is that some courses may be required that cause a student to question and doubt. There is a young pioneer sister in my hall who is attending the community college right now. Her dad is an elder. I keep wondering if the CO's visit this week will change all that because I keep hearing about elders being threatened with removal if their kids are in school. I guess we will see...
 
VM44
VM44 5 years ago

Several years ago someone posted here at JWN (then JWC) that a pioneer sister was removed from being a pioneer because she was taking a course in philosophy!
 
witnessofjesus
witnessofjesus 5 years ago

I don't find that science or philosophy conflict with the Bible's treachings at all. I will say that the Witnesses have the 'basics' right, at least some of the basics right. I enjoy the study of science and philosophy and I'm hoping to complete my Master's degree in the next few years via an online University, found on the web at http://www.tuiu.edu
Yes, I've heard that elders and MS could be removed if they permitted their children to attend colleges and didn't have them 'under control', thus misusing the Scriptural qualification's in Timothy against these who didn't have in subjection their children. How sad, I hope this is not the case.
It is when the WTS attempts to control the lives of it's adherents is where I disagree with its methods and concepts, especially since they're so vague and always changing. In my opinion, a truth is a truth is a truth, newer 'light' doesn't replace older light or older truths, but only shines more brightly upon them making those older truths that much more understood and appreciated, not replacing them and doing the 'flip flop' technique that lots of policitians of today do.
Rest assured that God will hold accountable those at the WTS who are 'in charge' and that He will judge them righteously and mercifully, as they're just probably dupes of the same old system just like most of you were, or are, I'm sure most in today's GB were raised as JWs, and that most of them are 4th, 5th or even 6th generation JWs and so if they're doing evil, unknowingly, I do not believe God will hold that to their charge, but he will judge those and they will be dealt with both mercifully and to their everlasting benefit. Why the emphasis on the 'anointed' so much? Most of the other Bible student groups that broke off from the WTS in 1917 still exist, and most of them still use the books as published by C.T. Russell and most of them believe that the last of the 144,000 died back in the 1950s, and that since then, the Youthful Worthy class, another class they came up with from the Scriptures, is in charge now, and that these are almost dead as well, at which time, according to them the Consecrated Ephiphany Campers, another class they came up with from where I do not know, will take the lead amongst the Bible students association. They still have annual Conventions and International Conventions just like the JWs do, but they're not under any organizational authority to conform to such and such, and they celebrate Christmas, New years and all the so-called 'pagan' holidays and they salute the flag and serve in the military...they rest in the thougth that Jesus died for ALL MEN, including Adam and that this life is not the only chance one has at 'getting saved', but that that work is left for the Millenial Reign of Christ and His Church in the Kingdom that is coming. They set no dates, they don't go around door-to-door as much as the JWs do, but they do rejoice in the work that the JWs are doing, for at least the Kingdom good news is being preached they say, but that it's not their job to do it, that's why God is using the JWs to do it for them. You might be interested to read about them at http://www.biblestandard.com

Cheers,
Witness
 
CoonDawg
CoonDawg 5 years ago

Very cool, Luna! Here is one I wrote for a class called "Second Language and Culture Acquisition"

Cultural Self-Study and Reflection
The cultural background of my family is not easily defined. My parents both came from Midwestern families with typical conservative ideals. They were both raised in large, white, middle class families in smaller cities in Kansas. They were taught to have a good work ethic and that nothing is free. Both subscribed to high control, evangelical, fundamentalist Christian religious sects. My parents raised their children within the model that they had been reared within.
As Rugh (2001) mentions, Midwestern culture is rooted in the values of the family farm mentality. Even for the non-religious, the lens through which traditional Midwesterners view the world is influenced by Calvinist / Protestant traditional values. A belief in God and a shunning sloth are two dominant qualities found within much of Midwestern society. My parents brought us up with these values in mind. My parents always strived to instill in their children a strong work ethic. This training has stayed with me as an adult. My siblings and I have always valued hard work and the satisfaction that comes from a job well done. This work ethic actually makes it difficult to identify with those who seem to accept half-hearted or lackluster job performance as adequate.
Though my parents had a strong work ethic, my family lived below the poverty level for the majority of my years at home. My siblings and I learned early in our lives to make do with what we had. The low socioeconomic level of our family served as a motivator to both me and my brother. We both wanted more from life. In this, neither of us followed in our parents’ footsteps. This cultural aspect motivates me to work hard and make smart choices when it comes to financial issues. I recall what it felt like to struggle from day to day to meet the financial obligations for a family of six. Though I’ve experienced financial hardship as an adult, the thought of struggling the way my parents did is abhorrent to me. This is strong factor in my decision making process.
Our low socioeconomic status tangentially exposed us to other cultures at an early age. Our family tended to live in poorer neighborhoods that had high ethnic minority populations. I’ve always considered this a positive in my life because in my formative years, my daily associates and friends were a diverse group. In fact, during my sixth grade year, my sister and I made up half of the white population at the school we attended. I’d like to think that this influences how I view minorities. I am able to be empathetic to those who are the minority in any given group because of my experiences. It has helped me to be sensitive to the cultural differences of others and, more importantly, the common ground shared by all.
The largest cultural influence, for me, is my religious background. My parents were both second generation Jehovah’s Witnesses. Though I am no longer a member of this sect of Christianity, it continues to play a part in my thoughts, actions, and decision making. As a young person, the tenants of this high control religion contributed to a sense of isolation. The religious leaders, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (WBTS), tell young people the following:
Even godless people may manifest fine qualities. But if you choose them as your close friends, your thinking, faith, and conduct will be affected. Thus, in his second letter to the Corinthians, Paul stated: “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers.”— 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, 1989).
With this sort of prohibition on association with non-believers, this seriously limited the depth of the relationships that were developed with my peers. These prohibitions were enforced by a policy of excommunication for those who would go against the rules put in place by the church leaders. The shunning of those who are nonconformists extends even to family members (WBTS, 1988, pp. 26-30). This judgmental view not only affected my dealings with my teachers and classmates, but it also limited the contact that our family had with non-believing extended family members.
My view of education, as a young person, was also heavily influenced by my family’s religious beliefs. During those formative years when my classmates were being introduced to the idea of college, I was being steered away from college. Church leaders at that time steered young church members away from higher education in favor of full time ministry. Those leaders promoted their own non-academic publications as providing and education equivalent to a college degree (WBTS, 1983).
Though I am not a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, some of the teachings stay with me. I know that my mother’s example of having a steady moral compass is something on which I will always rely. The example of doing the right thing simply because it’s the right thing has become part of my own ethical code, and one that I hope to exemplify to my children and the students in my classroom.
In my adult life, I’ve tried to make up for lost time. Though discouraged from pursuing higher education as a teen, I treasure the opportunities that education has given to me. In my case, the culture that I was a part of as a youngster has inspired me. Though my inspiration takes me in a direction contrary to my cultural indoctrination, it is what energizes and motivates me as a future teacher. It’s what has helped me to be a lifelong learner and a voracious reader. It’s what makes me take my civic duties seriously and fuels my desire to push my students to contribute to their communities to make them better places. It helps me value the contribution that women make to our society, though I was always taught that women were to be subservient to men. I’ve been able to take up the challenge of listening to what others have to say and realize that their beliefs are just as important to them as mine are to me. I no longer dismiss these as simply the ideas of those that church elders have determined to be “bad associates.” This self-imposed direction does give me a low threshold for individuals who appear to choose willful ignorance. However, this doesn’t allow me to give up on trying to show even these the value of intellectual pursuits.
It is my goal to reach out to my students in a manner that uses the best of my cultural background while always considering that of my students.

References
Rugh, Susan Sessions. Our Common Country: Family, farming, Culture, and Community in the Nineteenth- Century Midwest. 2001. Indiana University Press. Bloomington, IN.
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, (1989). Questions young people ask, answers that work . Brooklyn, NY: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York.
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. (1983, June 15). An excellent education. The Watchtower , 31.
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. (1988, April 15).Discipline that can yield peaceable fruit. The Watchtower , 26-30.
 
Lunatic Faith
Lunatic Faith 5 years ago

Coondawg-- I enjoyed reading your paper! Having lived in the west my whole life I found your sociological perspective on the midwest very interesting. It sounds like you have found your new path. I hope you find more satisfaction in life than you did as a JW.

Oh, and I forgot to post my grade. I got an A on the paper and in the class. The teacher actually sent me a note questioning some of my findings, for her limited knowledge told her that JW's were very sociable and family oriented. She was surprised I had experienced any isolation. Here was the response I sent her:
Thanks for the grade on the sociology paper. It was harder to write than I thought it would be, but once I was done I realized how much I enjoyed the assignment. In your response you said, " I am a little surprised that you felt isolated as a child -- I had understood Jehovah's Witnesses to be cohesive communities similar to Mormons." From the outside it appears a cohesive unit but, as with any group, there is a caste system of sorts. Elders, servants, pioneers (Those serving in a more full-time capacity) were at the top of the pyramid. My father used to be an elder and my mother and he both served full-time, but as my mothers health worsened and our ability to maintain a clean orderly house declined we became outcasts. The more alienated we were the more desperately we tried to be acceptable. As you are aware, that has a tendency to have the opposite effect it should. We became the doormats in the congregation that others would use to make themselves feel better. Not everyone was like that but the elders would say very hurtful things to my father when he would ask for more privileges. God hated us because we couldn't keep a clean house. The social isolation created personality disorders, of sorts, that my father and brothers have never been able to shake free of. I learned to be perfect so no one could criticize, but it was at the cost of my soul. Once I learned the damage I was inflicting on myself, I started to free myself from the damaging constraints. I had included more of that in the initial paper, but it was too long so I had to cut. At any rate, as with any group run by man membership is based upon a popularity contest. Those with more ingratiating, or gregarious, or acceptable personalities become the winners in the game.
she sent me a short note in response saying that most groups have a pecking order.
 

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Dubs at the Door
by Farkel 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Farkel
Farkel 6 years ago

Knock, knock...
HH (Householder): Yes? May I help you?
Dub1: Good morning. We are working with a group of your neighbors today sharing some Christian good news about the future. Would you like to know what that good news is?
HH: You're not Mormons are you?
Dub1: No, we are not.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: Well, good. I grew up around them Mormons and boy are they weird. Did you know that they claim that only they are the true religion and that their religious leader speaks personally for God? Isn't that totally arrogant?
Dub1: It sure is!
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: They also have 12 other leaders called "Apostles" who determine what they must believe and what they cannot believe. My cousin was a Mormon missionary and all he he did was question some of the stuff they teach and you know what they did him?.
Dub1: What?
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: They kicked him out of the religion, excommunicated him, that's what! They call it "disfellowshipping." All he did was ask for some reasonable explanations for their teachings and practices. Don't you think that was a pretty cruel thing to do for just asking questions?
Dub1: Definitely.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: You bet it was. My cousin was born and raised in that religion and went on a 2 year mission starting when he was eighteen. That's another thing that bothers me about those Mormons. My cousin said that if you don't go out preaching full time as soon as you graduate from High School, they all look down on you like you are some sort of failure. How can they judge people like that?
Dub1: They shouldn't. It sounds to me like they are a very judgemental bunch of people and it's due to their false religion. Only God can judge people, not humans.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Did you know they forbid you to marry anyone but a Mormon and you have to get married in their Church, but ONLY if you are in perfect standing with the Church? What right do they have to do that?
Dub1: They sound like control freaks to me.
Dub2: Yeah. .
HH: The leaders of their various local Churches are just regular Mormons who have worked their way up into the job. They don't get paid, but they don't have any special training or education to counsel people with their problems, especially when they have marital or mental problems. But they have the power to discipline people and even kick them out of the religion.
Dub1: Boy, I wouldn't want to be a part of THAT religion.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: Not only that, but did you know that they have CLASSES of members? Only the best of them get to go to Heaven in what they call the "Celestial Kingdom." Those guys get a whole planet to rule over for eternity. The other class which consists of not-so-good Mormons and others have to live for eternity as humans on earth in the "Terrestrial Kingdom" and be ruled by the elite members in Heaven. Jesus never taught that junk.
Dub1: Obviously, they are very wrong and misguided, probably by Satan the Devil.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: Joseph Smith made several prophecies which he said came directly from God and what he prophesied never happened!
Dub1: Well, the Bible tells us that such people are false prophets and we shouldn't listen to them.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: Did you know that they interpreted an Egyptian document to be a Biblical story and later it was deciphered to be nothing more than an Egyptian story?
Dub1: That shows how false they are. Anyone who uses anything created by the Pagan Egyptians to point to the Bible is definitely under the influence of Satan.
Dub2: Yeah.
HH: They have their own books which they say you have to read to fully understand the Bible, as if the Bible isn't good enough for us. Why should I use their books when I have my Bible?
Well, thank you for listening and good luck with your ministry. I'm happy with my faith, but thanks for stopping by, anyway. May God bless you!
Dub1, walking away: Boy, those Mormons are sure screwed up, aren't they? And so is that stupid householder who is too stubborn to listen to our message and now must die at Armageddon.
Dub2. Yeah.

Farkel
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 6 years ago

Another Farkel classic! Thanks, now I've had my smile for the evening. Please keep them coming!
GLT
 
dudeson
dudeson 6 years ago

Good reading material here! Hats off to 'Dub2'.
 
TD
TD 6 years ago

LOL... Priceless!
 
Marvin Shilmer
Marvin Shilmer 6 years ago

Fark!
I just lost it onto my keyboard!
You are messed up.
Marvin Shilmer
 
Will Power
Will Power 6 years ago

Oh Farkel
you so funny
 
yknot
yknot 6 years ago

Farkel...
.......that was too funny!
 
dissed
dissed 6 years ago

Classic Farkel
 
milola
milola 6 years ago

Gosh it makes me wish I could print that out for my folks to find. Very funny.
 
mama1119
mama1119 6 years ago

I can't wait for them to come to my door now. i want to use some of those lines!
 
toreador
toreador 6 years ago

Thats frickin awesome!
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 6 years ago

I'd like to print that and sticky tape it to the inside of my door frame in case i ever need it!
that is classic
Oz
 
teel
teel 6 years ago

Good reading material here! Hats off to 'Dub2'.
Yeah.
 
nugget
nugget 6 years ago

Very good. The best way to open eyes of cult members is to get them thinking about other cults. Priceless.
 
Chalam
Chalam 6 years ago

Good stuff!
The Mormons are the spiritual cousins to the JWs for sure.

Blessings,
Stephen
 
snowbird
snowbird 6 years ago

FARKEL!!!
You the man!
My money is on Dub #2 soon becoming Dub-Zero!
Yeah!
Sylvia
 
GrandmaJones
GrandmaJones 5 years ago

Great job! I plan to use this on my family. I will start by mentioning that I got a call at the door from some, and we got into a bibical discussion and I plan to do some research as they are going to call back to hear more from me on our views. Ha, ha, this will give me an army of info to present over the next couple of weeks with NO NEGATIVE comments about the org!
Thanks Farkel! I just love the stuff you write.
 
3dogs1husband
3dogs1husband 5 years ago





 
Ding
Ding 5 years ago

Great script for TMS for KHs in Utah!
 
Joshinaz
Joshinaz 5 years ago

Great job! Wasn't that in a KM somewhere?
 

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Dubs at the Door
by Farkel 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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nelly136
nelly136 5 years ago

classic
 
donuthole
donuthole 5 years ago

!! Funny.
 

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Topic Summary
knock, knock.... hh (householder): yes?
dub1: good morning.
we are working with a group of your neighbors today sharing some christian good news about the future.



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Visiting A Worship Service At A Kingdom Hall
by Bangalore 6 years ago 6 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Bangalore
Bangalore 6 years ago

A Mormon attends a meeting at the Kingdom Hall for the first time and notes down his observations.

http://mormoninsights.blogspot.com/2009/12/visiting-worship-service-at-kingdom.html

Bangalore
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 6 years ago

On Sunday September 6th, 2009 I attended the worship service of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I again dressed into a suit and tie, and walked into their Kingdom Hall.
Immediately upon entering the building I found it surprising that everyone was walking upstairs. I later asked why the chapel was upstairs, and if there was any special meaning to it. I was told it was just how the building was built. But, upon walking up the stairs, I saw a meeting hall that reminded me of going to the movie theater, without the stadium seating. The chapel had rows and rows of movie theater seats, and even a concession stand of a sort, except at this "concession stand" they served Bibles, or hymn books, or whatever else you may need for worship (at no cost).
When I first walked in the Kingdom Hall I stood around looking at the place for a bit, until someone eventually came up to me and said hello. I told them that I had a friend who was a Jehovah’s Witness and I had read their book titled, “What the Bible Really Says”, and I wanted to check out a Kingdom Hall meeting. All of which I said was true. Having read their book, I decided to come up with some questions ahead of time, which I will discuss more later.
The man I talked to walked with me to the Kingdom Hall concession stand, where I was given a Bible to keep, as well as a hymn book and a Watch Tower magazine: Sunday School Edition. I talked with the man a little more, small chit chat really, and then sat down in the movie theater style seat.The chapel was blank except some plants upfront, and some framed Bible scripture quotes in English and Spanish.
The service started with a song, in which there was no piano or organ, but music was played over the chapel speakers in which we sang with. I sang the song, and had no qualms about doing so. Then a prayer was given, which started with, “Our Heavenly Father Jehovah”. The prayer was very similar to any mainstream Christian prayer, minus the words above.
I then learned that speakers from different congregations would travel to other Kingdom Halls to give talks, as well as speaking within their own congregation. Today we had a member from another congregation giving a talk, which was quite interesting. The talk was about Jesus and how he was able to actually atone for our sins. The speaker an elderly gentleman told that God Jehovah through Jesus’ loins could have created a second human race. That this second human race would be born without original sin, and therefore be perfect. That through Jesus’ loins, God Jehovah had a replacement for every single one of us. Since Jesus died for us, and each replacement died with him, Jesus was able to atone for our sins. This was accomplished through the death of our substitutes, in the loins of Jesus when he died, as a one-for-one trade off. The talk went on for about 30 minutes, and although I understood every point he was trying to make, I was rather confused on how he came to these conclusions. I decided when the time was right I was going to ask someone if Jesus atoned for us through his loins. When the speaker finished, we then sang another hymn with the music that played over the speakers.
Next was Sunday School. We never left the room and we sat in the same seats. The course of study was the Watch Tower: Sunday School Edition. The class was taught by a well-dress man. He had an assistant, another man, helping him to read out of the Watch Tower using a microphone. When the assistant finished, the teacher would then ask the pre-written questions from the magazine. People in the congregation would raise their hand and assistants with microphones would walk up and down the aisles, handing the microphone to those persons who then answered the question. All sorts of people answered the questions. I tried to keep track to see if everyone in the congregation would participate, and I would say that almost 90% of the people there answered, or commented at least once. Even two kids under 10 years old answered, but one of the kids said he forgot what he was going to say. The congregation laughed at his honesty.
The lesson was about, “Finding Treasures Carefully Concealed in Him” and was about putting forth effort to find the spiritual treasures offered to us, through Jesus Christ. None of the questions were that hard, or thought provoking really. The questions were more in the style of checking on learning and on what was just read. Some in the congregation did offer insights that elevated the conversation. What I found interesting was that I heard some answers that I know I’ve heard in my own church, such as, "Because we have the truth we have 'this,' or we understand 'this.' " This made me think about my own faith, and why we were saying some of the same answers, but coming to different conclusions.
After thinking about this similarity in answers, I came to the following conclusion, which is still a work in progress. I have no doubt of the personal revelations I have received concerning the truth of my faith, but in realizing this truth there are different means in which we can express our knowledge. The statement, "we have the truth" could be spoken out of pride, more than humility, and the motives behind such statements could be for the benefit of one’s self. I think we need to often bear our testimonies from a utilitarian perspective about how our faith motivates us to be better people, and why we our grateful for our faith.
The question and answer sessions gave me the opportunity to look at the congregation more. I saw a lot more diversity than I thought I would. For example, twenty percent of the 60 or so present appeared to be African Americans. There were not too many younger folk. Most of the people were in their 40’s or higher. There were some couples in their 20’s. One man had a white suit with a brightly colored shirt and tie. Conservative dress, evidently, was not a necessity.
After the meeting was over, I was told I could keep the Watchtower: Sunday School Edition. I was also given an Awake teen oriented magazine, and a standard Watchtower magazine. I then asked if there was anyone I could talk with, about some questions I had. Two elderly gentlemen talked with me. The two cornered me against a wall, not in a hostile manner, but it was not the most relaxed position for a visitor. I told them I had previously read their book, “What the Bible really Says," and I had some questions.
My first question was based on their belief that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. I said, “Since Michael lived in Heaven and came to Earth as Jesus a man, does that mean we men today who now live on Earth, once lived in Heaven with Jehovah?” Their short answer was “No.” My second question was, “In the talk given today, the speaker talked about a replacement or second human race through Jesus’ loins being sacrificed with Jesus. Was Jesus able to atone for sin, because of his loins?” Again their answer was short and their answer was, “No, it was through his blood.” My next question was about the Watch Tower Society which creates the Kingdom Hall materials, “Is the Watch Tower Society today’s prophet?” I asked this question because a former Jehovah’s Witness told me that was true. Their answer was, “The Watch Tower Society is just a group of people who work for the organization, nothing more”.
The answers I received were short, but not angry sounding. It was interesting, during the question and answer session of Sunday School, a comment was made about their great ability to search the scriptures, and answer other Christian’s questions. But, when I asked my questions I got very little in the form of answers. It is perhaps understandable that they were not prepared to answer my questions.
The two gentlemen asked if I wanted to do a home Bible study with them. I said sure and gave them my phone number and told them where I lived. Weeks later after this visit, I never got a call to setup an appointment. The only thing I can think of as to why I might be getting the cold shoulder is my military haircut. I’m in the Army and that is a big NO in their faith. Maybe they could tell I was in the Army.
At the end of my questioning, the two gentlemen passed me off to another person. We had a very nice and long 20-minute conversation, in which I asked non-doctrinal questions.
I asked him, “How do you know which is the right church?” in which he replied, “By the love shown by its members. You can tell a true church of Jesus Christ by its love.”
I asked, “Is being a Jehovah’s Witness hard?” in which he answered, “No it’s liberating; it is freedom. We don’t have to worry about being pushed around in today’s storm of ideas. We have stability and that gives us the freedom needed to confront today’s problems.”
I then asked, “What is door knocking like?” He didn’t really answer my question, but said they go about knocking on peoples doors to show their love for them. What I really wanted to know was whether they get nervous, pushed around, or treated badly. The next congregation was about to start their meeting, and so we parted ways, with the promise that they would call me.
The following is not a complete representation of my thoughts and opinions on my visit, but it is the best I have for the moment. The people of this faith are sincere in their desire to be kind, helpful and loving. The faith very much reflects many of the underlining currents and issues in conservative Christianity today. Most Protestants would not group Jehovah Witnesses into their fold. However, both groups are focused on defending many of the same stereotypical Christian topics.
Like Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses are probably more misunderstood than understood by outsiders.
 
freetosee
freetosee 6 years ago

Very interesting

I wonder why they didnt answer his questions more deeply and didnt follow up by a visit. His questions were not hard. Was it really because they were not prepared?

They likely knew he was a mormon, so they assume it is very unlikely for him to accept the “truth”. On the other hand, they would not want him to pass on his “false teachings” to the cong. So whom he got to speak to was very much controlled, being cornered by and passed off to “spiritually strong” members.
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

I am sure they are wary of anyone who has a shopping list of questions. Also, they did fudge the truth on some answers- the question about the WT writers being a prophet must have rattled them a little. I wish the GB was looked at as just" a group of men who work for the Org, nothing more"-
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 6 years ago

I suggest researching on this forum before committing to any new religion. While I do not recommend becoming a Mormon, from what I have seen, at least it is a little better than becoming a Jehovah's Witless.
For instance, the door to door work in the Mormons is only for a limited period. Witlesses spend their whole damn lives, and every single one of them is required to do that. Mormons are also allowed to celebrate Christmas (sparing them the headaches of having to dread the holiday decorations and music); witlesses are not. And Mormons as a group tend to be encouraged to get an education, while the witlesses are not.
 
freetosee
freetosee 6 years ago

maybe the mormon religion is a little better than jw, but is is still a dangerous cult, IMO.
the experiences of ex-mormons are very similar to ex-jws!
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

well, it is a lot more costly- 10% tithe, plus, money to the local church, then the regional stake, then the widows and orphans fund, money for your kids mission trip, money for trips to those Temple services- at least this was how it was explained to me by a Mormon 30 years ago, who drove old beat up cars and lived in an old house that was only 10 years away from being a teardown.
 

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One year and counting
by lancelink 6 years ago 1 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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lancelink
lancelink 6 years ago

If you look at the previous post, I wrote down what the final nail in my JW carreer was.
And I'll tell you right now, I have absolutly no intention of returning to this religion,,,, but several things have happened and I would appreciate your personal thoughts on the matter.
When my Mom died, about the same time my wife became baptized as a mormon, she was a witness for 20 years before.
She was satisfied spiritually so I left her to her own beliefs. besides I was in no mental position to continually argue about it. She developed lots of new friends, and I focused on myself, dealing with the death of a parent was alot hard than I thought it would be. So I attended a grief support group at a local hospital and it helped me tremendously.
But now that it has been a little more than a year, I find myself getting angry at the fact that my wife seem to have carved out a whole new life with the mormons,, and I seem to be an afterthought many times.
Lately I have gone to services for different religions, but 30 years of jw thinking really dull the edges of anything new I hear or learn.(remember EVERYTHING outside the jw world is evil.
I have always been a spiritual person, and i have done a lot of work helping abused large animals, when i was a witness many times this aspect of my life was looked down on. I get much satisfaction helping something that cannot speak for itself, I feel a great sense of spirituality in this. yet, there is an area in my life that almost seems to need an organized religious system.
My wife is very happy with what she is doing, but there is no way I will get involved with a religion that has such a weird/screwed-up system of beliefs.(I've do my homework regarding the Mormons, and it rivals the witnesses in many ways)
Whenever Iam invited to a get together with them I get the jw "so your not a fellow believer" feeling. And there is an awkward relationship there.
So,,, has this feeling of not being attached to anything happened to anyone who left the witnesses, how did you deal with it, and what did you focus on ?
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 6 years ago

I fet that way before my stepchildren moved in, because I had extra time on my hands. By the time they were grown and gone, I'd already developed relationships within the community that fulfills my spiritual side. But if volunteerng isn't enough for you, maybe you should check out the Unitarian Church...very educated, liberal, philosophical crowd from what I understand.
 

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What should I say to the Mormons?
by bluecanary 7 years ago 53 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

Yesterday as I was leaving the apartment, there were two women in skirts, holding bibles at the door across from me. I almost panicked! I definitely want to talk the JWs if they EVER come to my door (no one knows me in this area) but I'm not ready yet!
But they were Mormons and I invited them to visit me Thursday afternoon. I fairly warned them that I'm an ex-JW and I have no interest in converting to Mormonism, but I would be happy to talk to them if they don't feel like that's a waste of their time. They gave each other this look that they probably didn't know I could read, but it said "Oh yeah, that's what they all say! We've got a live one!"
I feel like this is a practice run for talking to the JWs. It'll help me get the jitters out of my system. My plan with these ladies is not to attack their faith in any way, but to be an honest skeptic. I understand that THEY believe it. Why should I believe it?
I'm trying to sign up with an ex-Mormon forum to get some input, but I don't know when I'll be accepted.
Any other suggestions on how to handle the visit or what to say?
 
bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

I found this page on the stuff Mormon's won't tell you right away. There's not much to grab onto. It seems like piddiddly stuff, but it's really interesting because it gives me insight into exactly what the witnesses must look like to newcomers. To them, being told that what the witnesses teach about 1919 is a big deal must sound the way this sounds to my ears:
The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?
I think this kind of stuff only has meaning to believers and ex-believers.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 7 years ago

Maybe they wanna talk you into a polygamist orgy !!
YeeHaww !!!!!!
 
dinah
dinah 7 years ago

Tell 'em to pull their magic underwear over their heads and bug off.
 
Chalam
Chalam 7 years ago

Hi BC,
I think "thanks but no thanks" is your best response.
If you need some basics on the Mormons then see this

&feature=related
Or if you need more indepth info
Mormons & Illuminati

Keep these verse in mind.

2 John 1:9-10 (New International Version)
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

For sure the Mormons have "run ahead" and are teaching Christ is an angel and the brother of Lucifer.

All the best,
Stephen
 
bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

Thanks for the vid, Stephen. I thought the Mormons were wack jobs when I was a JW and my opinion hasn't changed. I have no interest in selling my freedom to another group of men. My goal is to be polite and let them do the talking, but direct it in such a way that maybe they'll realize they have no basis for what they're selling.
I just want to be honest and say that from what I know of the Mormon religion, it sounds like a Joseph Smith set up a scam to give himself a lot of power. I'll ask what them to offer me evidence that that isn't so.
 
palmtree67
palmtree67 7 years ago

Hi, blue!
I had a book of Mormon and The Pearl of High Price. I read both extensively. There was a really good WT article about the flaws in the book of Mormon that I used to study it with. I think the article was from the mid '70's????
One point I remember is that one of the books in the Book of Mormon, (can't think of the name right now, but it started with "N"), there is a scripture where some people are quoted as crying out "A bible! A Bible! We have no need of a bible!" The point was made that at the time this was supposed written, the term "Bible" had not been applied to the scriptures yet.
I remember there being lots of good points in that article. It would be good if you had a book of Mormon first, but if you don't that's OK.
Have fun and learn lots, blue! You'll do great!


 
palmtree67
palmtree67 7 years ago

Maybe Blondie can find the article I'm thinking of...Sorry, I'm at work right now.


 
megawatt
megawatt 7 years ago

Oh man, lol.

My exact experiece, almost word for word on my drive way a few weeks ago! Do you happen to live in florida? :grinning:. 2 young ladies with a nametag, and was kinda blinded sided that an outsider knew of Joseph Smith and the Mormon's origins. Left nothing more than a post card size tract with the church in UTAH.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 7 years ago

I don't know much about Mormons, but I do know a lot about JW, so the last time I had the chance to talk to them I just talked about my experiences with the JWs. I did this without naming them, just describing my parent's religion as a high control cult.
I made sure that I covered areas that had parallels in their cult.
I got that 'dead eyes' look and quick attempt to divert my attention a couple of times, so I must have been close to the mark.

There is a lot of evidence that the history in the BOM is BS. The DNA evidence is particularly damning. Google it.
As with JWs, it is best to pick ONE question to ask, know the subject well, and keep them on it. The scatter gun approach doesn't work with members of any cult.
Cheers
Chris
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 7 years ago

That cartoon is a great find, Chalam!
Is this a new thing, the females going door to door? I thought only the young men on bicycles did their mission work from door to door. How common is this? Do females have to do a mission, too? Is it only for a short period of time?
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 7 years ago

Here's an indepth analysis of Mormonism:
Mormonism Against Itself by Maurice Barnett.
I'd suggest letting the missionaries talk and present their material for the first visit. Note what they're saying and then when they come back say you did some research on the Internet and have some questions for them.
 
TD
TD 7 years ago

The Bible is an authentic piece of ancient literature. The Book of Morman is not. There's all kinds of things you could do to point this out
You could ask them why the Book of Mormon is written in Jamesian 16th and 17th century English, when that is not the era Joseph Smith lived in. Was Joseph Smith deliberately trying to give the book a "Biblical" flavor by putting it into the same English as the King James version? If he was, then his unfamiliarity with Greek would have tripped him up:
For example, you could ask them how the word "Synagogue" found it's way into the Book of Mormon, since the word wasn't coined until Alexander conquered the holy land and the Jews began speaking Greek for normal day to day activity. The BOM was allegedly written before this happened.
You could ask them how a Greek expression that only John used, Amen Amen lego soi - "Verily, verily I say unto thee" found it's way into the BOM (Again in Jamesian English)
You could thumb through the BOM and look at some of the pictures. The prophet Abinidai standing before King Noah for example. The picture, and more importantly the narrative upon which it is drawn from depicts an advanced culture on par with the Roman Empire.
You could observe, "Cultures at that level produce durable objects. Masonry ramparts, walls, arenas, temples and columns. Kiln, fired pottery, tile and mosaic work. Steel swords, armor, spear and arrowheads. Gold and silver jewelry, coins, statues, temple ornaments, etc. These things last many thousands of years. You can go to any good museam and see Egyptian artifacts that were already many centuries old at the time of Christ."
You could ask, "Where is the evidence that any of what the BOM describes actually took place? Where are these type of artifacts?
Even if the Bible were purely a work of fiction, it would still have historical value. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the Roman, Greek and Egyptian empires existed because the durable objects they produced are still with us today. The pyramids still stand. Greek and Roman temples still stand. You could tour the holy land and see the wailing wall, the ruins of the house of Caiphas, Hezekiah's tunnel, the pool of Siloam, the mount of Olives, etc. Why should anyone accept the BOM as an historical work?"
I've not even scratched the surface here. This kind of stuff goes on and on. DNA evidence refutes the Lamanite theory. The horse was unknown on the American continent at the time the events described in the BOM allegedly took place. Then there are the Kinderhook plates, substantial differences between Joseph Smith's handwritten account of his first vision, and official church history, etc.
 
Chalam
Chalam 7 years ago

Glad you liked the cartoon BabaYaga :smile:
Here's one from the same producers on JWs.




All the best,
Stephen
 
AuntBee
AuntBee 7 years ago

Joseph Smith's 33 (at least) wives, one as young as 14, and quite a few were already married to someone else. The New Testament teaches that even local church elders must be 'the husband of one wife.' So wouldn't at least that standard apply to someone claiming to be God's mouthpiece to restore the Church in the last days? .... Adultery, of course, is condemned in both the Old and New Testament.
 
Lillith26
Lillith26 7 years ago

Hi Bluecanary- This site may prove usefull- http://www.4mormon.org/ They have printable pamflets that you can use during your discussion, questions and testimonies from ex-mormons
a sister site to this one is- http://www.4jehovah.org/ Same things just JW styled.
 
nelly136
nelly136 7 years ago

or you could just tell them your grass needs cutting and your walls need painting.... when i had them call here they didnt fancy looking at any mormons suck sites, but they had a look at jwd,
and i found they like helping or doing jobs because its time they can knock off their door work hours, dont know if its the same over where you are.
i always make it clear theres no convert hope in my house but i will make them a cup of fruit tea or some other allowable drink if theyre passing.

they also wear id badges and will show their wallet id, which they say is a legal requirement. i still cant work out why they have to have this and jws dont. they also said they get moved on by the police if people complain, never heard of that happening to jws here.
when i emailed the charity commission and asked why mormons show id and jws dont have to they didnt deign to reply.
 
ninja
ninja 7 years ago

mormon women going door to door?
 
I discovered
I discovered 7 years ago

Be careful , I had my door open and two mormon guys were standing there and one of them showed me a tract
They could see that I had company and I took the tract. They came back later and I said that I read it and if I had
any questions I would talk to a family member about their beliefs. One snapped at me with is he a jw?!!
I said no and they said oh. and smiled and left my porch. Some one in my apartment must have told them that I was a witness because I never told
them. So much for the fading. Hope they will be nicer with you. Thought the whole thing was kindof funny afterword. Try to keep a open mind.
 
JustHuman14
JustHuman14 7 years ago

Take care not to fall into another cult. Just show them the comment things that JW and Mormon faith have. You can make a search to an ex-mormon webside and you will get all the info you need
 

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What should I say to the Mormons?
by bluecanary 7 years ago 53 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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Chalam
Chalam 7 years ago

Take care not to fall into another cult.
Amen! These verses are for them

1 Timothy 1:3-4 (New International Version)

Warning Against False Teachers of the Law
 3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer  4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. They have devoted themselves to myths (Joseph Smith and the "gold plates") and endless genealogies (Mormons search for their family tree so they can "baptise the dead" and get them "saved", directly contrary to Hebrews 9:27). Also 1 Timothy 4:7
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (New International Version)
3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
I also showed the last pair of Mormons who came to my door this verse
Revelation 22:18 (New International Version)

 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Joseph Smith added not only a few words but a whole book, "The Book Of Mormon" to the book of Revelation and the collection of prophetic book we call the Bible.

All the best,
Stephen

 
designs
designs 7 years ago

What's the difference between the goofiness and superstitions of the Mormons and the Fundamentalists.............. not much.
 
Heaven
Heaven 7 years ago


What should I say to the Mormons?
"I'm NOT interested." as you close the door/walk away.
 
bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

Thanks for the responses guys. Lilith, I've seen that JW site; I didn't know there was a Mormon version. Unfortunately, it's from a Christian perspective, which I am not. It doesn't matter to me whether or not Mormons follow the Bible because I don't hold the Bible as an authority. What matters is whether they're a cult. I've read Combatting Cult Mind Control and I've got access to Steve Hassan's list of questions to determine if something is a cult. Reading ex-Mormon sites shows an incredibly close parallel with JWs, regardless of disparity between their particular beliefs.
We've had threads here before about going to doors as JWs and someone sparking our thinking that something is not right with our religion. Even if it doesn't produce immediate change, that spark can stay with someone and later help them to leave. This may be such an encounter for these girls.
 
undercover
undercover 7 years ago


What should I say to the Mormons?
"I'm NOT interested." as you close the door/walk away.


There's no point talking to Mormons, JWs or any other person trying to sell you their religion. They're convinced they're right...that's why they're there. IMO, it's best to treat them like an unwanted interruption. I won't be rude, but I don't owe them anything, especially my time, so I quickly let them know that I'm not interested in what they have to sell and they can move on.
 
I discovered
I discovered 7 years ago

I definitely want to talk the JWs if they EVER come to my door (no one knows me in this area) but I'm not ready yet!
The Mormons do and I just hope they don't know some jws and start to gossip about you. Please be careful.
 
Butterflyleia85
Butterflyleia85 7 years ago

Oh my goodness thanks for that video! I use to have The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (basically Mormon) come study with me each week, a couple of months ago. They are nice ppl and kinda reminded me of when I use to go out and preached but I didn't follow their beliefs at all. But because of being DF at my Hall I just decide hey maybe I can be accepted and encouraged to do good for God. But yeah it is weird how they believed and I could never get them to just stick with the Bible they referred to the The Book of Mormon all the time. Eventually they saw I was firm with my belief and they stopped visiting. They are very nice people though. I hope God looks at their efforts though. "Resurrection of righteous and the unrighteous" ya know.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 7 years ago

Before you even bother you need to ask yourself why you want to talk to them:
If you decide the route of respect just politely thank them and apologise for wasting their time (and let's be honest you have!)
If you decide that you are genuinely interested (and I'm getting the jive that you aren't) then certainly do your research from all sources and remember that you just got out of one cult.
If you decide that you wish to convert them as Chalam is suggesting then I'd suggest you re-read point two above and remind yourself that your faith is just as wonky when you boil it down. If however, you are convinced your sky god can outwit their sky god then do whatever your faith / sect / cult / study group does to get your mojo and try that. It won't work.
If you decide that you are wanting to engage is some philosphical debate (and why not) just remember they aren't there to debate with you and so you'll inevitablly get into tortuous mental impasses that they will easily bypass with their 'testimony' and you will be frustrated by. They will not engage you beyond this.
If finally, you , either because you genuinely care or you are being a bit of a clever dick, want to enlighten them and help / shame them into accepting you are right and they need to listen to you then may I respectfully suggest that as a former LDS missionary you:
1/ Avoid that absoultely childish and downright stupid cartoon - it isn't that it is wrong but that focuses on the most ineffective tosh (if I made a video of Jesus walking around on water, sped it up and added a comedy track I doubt you'd make much of an impression on any committed Christians.)
2/ Don't bother with a hit list of dodgy doctrines - after all you can only offer in their place another suitably silly belief unless you are of a scientific bent and already reject religion. Playing my bible is better than yours because we have Jericho and you have no horses is naff. It will make zero impact.
3/ Do focus on divine experiences and show genuine interest and ask follow up questions. A Mormon's weakest point is - like most religious people - also their strongest. Mormons do not base their beliefs on facts / flawless philosophy / repeatable scientific principles or common sense. Mormons base their beliefs on a supposed divine experience called a testimony. The problem with a testimony is that it does not bear up to investigation. Feelings, impressions, odd dreams, coincidental experiences and so forth are not a solid foundation for believing that a mendatious 14 year old saw God or for that matter that an invisible Jesus chose some bible students in 1919. When you really dig deep testimonies / reasons for belief really fall apart.
IMHO.
 
TD
TD 7 years ago

Qcmbr gave some good advice.
My own point of view comes from living in a part of the country where streets have names like, "Alma," "Lehi," and "Jarom"; LDS missionaries are not always adolescents, don't usually accept a "Not interested" response at face value and call a couple of times each year.
 
bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

I've posted this question on a Mormon site here and gotten some good responses. I now intend to do some more reading about ex-Mormons, particularly life stories, just because it's fascinating how similar our experiences are. Plus their board lets you have avatars and a signature. Simon, the ex-LDS are making you look bad.
I've already stated my reasons for talking to the Mormons. And I told them up front that I'm not interested in converting so if they feel like it's a waste of their time not to bother. If they want to talk to me anyway, that's their business. I have nothing to convert them to. I just want to provide a little thought fodder for their use at a later time.
This was one suggestion given me on the LDS site:
Talk about what you know best. Mind control.
I think you talk about how you have been abused by your faith and allow to connect the dots to their own mind control clan. Tell them how creepy it is to hear JWs teach young children to bear witness that the JW religion is the one true church. Ask them if Mormons do that. Mormons put three year old kids in front of the pulpit at church and feed them words of how the church is the only true church. Tell them how creepy it is that JWs don't allow outsiders into some of their ceremonies and completely excommunicate dissidents. Then ask them who gets to attend a temple marriage.
There is an analogous manipulation to every manipulation you encountered as a JW. Mormons have dozens of practices that separate them from the rest of the world and the primary purpose of these practices is to separate them from the rest of society. You can't leave the church if think society is a totally foreign place. JW's do this but use different practices. You couldn't celebrate holidays as a mechanism to separate God's chosen from Satan's minions. Mormons don't drink coffee and wear magic underwear for the same reason. It separates us from the rest of the goats.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 7 years ago

If you want the best and most complete info on mormons, check them out. Like Free Minds of Mormonism. Jerald and Sandra Tanner http://www.utlm.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Lighthouse_Ministry
 
Chalam
Chalam 7 years ago

Hi Butterfly,
Oh my goodness thanks for that video!
No problems

But yeah it is weird how they believed and I could never get them to just stick with the Bible they referred to the The Book of Mormon all the time.
Same M.O. as the JWs, their spiritual half-brothers. JWs won't just stick to the bible either but instead refer to the WT publications to teach them what the bible is saying.

Eventually they saw I was firm with my belief and they stopped visiting. They are very nice people though. I hope God looks at their efforts though.
Of course all our efforts don't add up to much.

Isaiah 64:6 (New International Version)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
 and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
 we all shrivel up like a leaf,
 and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

What God is looking for is the image of His Son in us.

All the best,
Stephen
 
parakeet
parakeet 7 years ago

bluecanary, two points for you to consider.
1. Just tell the Mormons to go away. Best for everyone.
2. Qcmber is a Mormon.

dinah: Tell 'em to pull their magic underwear over their heads and bug off.
Duh! You can't give Mormons a wedgie because their underwear is magical.
 
TD
TD 7 years ago

2. Qcmber is a Mormon.

No active Mormon would say what Qcmber just said:
"Mormons base their beliefs on a supposed divine experience called a testimony. The problem with a testimony is that it does not bear up to investigation. Feelings, impressions, odd dreams, coincidental experiences and so forth are not a solid foundation for believing that a mendatious 14 year old saw God or for that matter that an invisible Jesus chose some bible students in 1919. When you really dig deep testimonies / reasons for belief really fall apart."
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 7 years ago

It doesn't matter to me whether or not Mormons follow the Bible because I don't hold the Bible as an authority. What matters is whether they're a cult.
Man oh man. JW's are a cult-light compared to the Mormons. I feel bad enough about the JW cult. I would never bother with anyone more distant that immediate family helping them out of the Mormons or talking to them- and only then if I thought it was helping. I can't even get my wife out of the JW cult. Walk away from these people.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 7 years ago

Just to clarify - I am a NOM mormon - I don't believe in any God as currently described by any religions however, I do enjoy the Mormon culture and attend services not out of religious devotion but out of cultural and social benefits.
I've been an utterly 100% devout believer and come 180 degrees to my current position. While a believer I had all sorts of discussions with people setting up the above scenarios (from a pastor with his friends and several ex-mormon books through to bible bashes with born agains and JW's). None of these experiences in and of themselves switched on any lights. As part of my own deprogramming I had to face my testimony first and deconstruct that.
I saw lots of anti-LDS videos and the above cartoon and they let themselves down by mocking rather than taking a serious tone. If you mock someone's belief you generally reinforce it.
Currently I feel the LDS church is on a knife edge and may well fall apart within my lifetime (indeed it would already have done without its social programs imo) due to the wealth of information not available previously with which to examine the presented facts. Already we see heavy de-emphasis on the Book of Abraham, blatant and uncomfortable sanitisation of the early history, rarer discussion of the imminence of the second coming and almost banned speculation of dates and also you'll almost never hear citation of archaelogical studies from Central America any more with regards to the Book of Mormon.
 
bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

I feel like I need to re-emphasize my first stated reason for doing this: This is practice for when the witnesses come. It is important for me to talk to the JWs. It's just something I feel I have to do for my own peace of mind.
I write well. I do not speak well. I have an auditory processing disorder. I am very introverted and nervous in social situations. When I first saw these girls and thought they were JWs, my first reaction was panic. Having them at my house and practicing some of the questions and reasonings I want to have for the JWs will help put me at ease. I feel less pressure with them because I do not feel the need to score any points here.
 
parakeet
parakeet 7 years ago

Qcmbr: Just to clarify - I am a NOM mormon - I don't believe in any God as currently described by any religions however, I do enjoy the Mormon culture and attend services not out of religious devotion but out of cultural and social benefits.
That certainly is a big change since last year, when you defended the LDS rather ferociously. Care to explain how this change came about? Your explanation would certainly be of benefit to bluecanary when she talks to the Mormons.
Qcmbr: .... blatant and uncomfortable sanitisation of the early history........
The LDS's unsavory history was covered in Jon Krakauer's book, "Under the Banner of Heaven," which you once dismissed as propaganda by "Krackpot Krakauer." Welcome to reality. The truth is always better than fiction.
 
heathen
heathen 7 years ago

This religion I can see really appeals to polygamists, I think that cartoon was very freaky myself . It seems like there are some things that come from the bible , I wouldn't have a problem saying that jesus and satan are brothers since jesus is believed to have been arch angel Michael who remained loyal to God where as satan rebelled . If you join you may wind up with several wives ......he he
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 7 years ago

Care to explain how this change came about? Your explanation would certainly be of benefit to bluecanary when she talks to the Mormons.
I'll try but the more I talk to people the more I struggle to define it right..I guess having a strong belief is a bit like being an alcoholic..even when you know it's not what you want anymore your brain is still wired to want it and you get stuck secretly craving it...
So I'll explain my change from my viewpoint of today , including my recent insights and knowing that tomorrow I may well describe my change from a different angle as I explore my past more and more.
Fact 1: I always had things that I could not logically square - that part's of my brain overroad and stuck in my mental junk closet under labels such as, "God's will is not mine", "I'll understand one day" and "I need to be more humble before the answer is revealed." The more faith I was required to exercise the more the belief was likely to be in this closet. For me this closet included the flood, creation, unanswered prayers, lack of healings, Eden, need for an atonement, masonic mormonism etc.
Fact 2: What I loved about my faith, what was my surrogate crutch, the defense against my doubts was the emotional, mental and cultural commitment to mormonism. Whatever anyone says, if you throw yourself into the cultural aspects then Mormonism is extremely rewarding, its friends , family, fun coupled with , in general, a fantastic bunch of well meaning people.I've not given this bit up nor do I want to.
Fact 3: As a committed member who had served a mission my emotional investment was huge. To lose all that committment by admitting I was wrong was the mental equivalent of trying to walk a straight line after spinning on the spot. I did not realise how hard wired my brain was, how unable to actually process conflicting data or even perceive it. Trying to explain higher maths to my 5 year old was as effective as trying to convince me that I was wrong. People also presenting information laced with mockery, disdain or vitriol made it utterly easy for my brain to filter it out before it could ever get to my deeper processing centres.

So how did I change? For me I needed several 'keys', things to unlock my doors and defences.
Firstly I had a friend with whom I'd served a mission -and had arguably the pinacle of my spiritual experiences with-leave the church. The emotional bond was strong enough to allow myself to ask the real question about why he could leave the church (rather than my stock excuse of he'd just sinned.)
Secondly I posted here and used this site as a way to examine my own beliefs without too directly assaulting them. I already 'know' that JWs aren't 'true' (as a Mormon I can reject all other gods very easily) so I can examine areas of similarity without arousing any mental alarm bells. Those tussles I had taught me many many lessons that allowed me to see JWs as cut from exactly the same mental cloth as Mormonism and the rest of religious thought. One of the most important debates was a series of evolution debates with Tetrapod Sapien.
Thirdly - and for me - most importantly I decided that my 'testimony' was not very strong because I hadn't paid a high price for it. The only way I could test it and prove it was to offer to God the hardest thing I could, my unbelief. I figured if I could honestly appraise all the facts and confront that terrifying possibility that it was all a lie and come out the other side with my testimony intact , that I would truly be able to say I believed. The problem was that while this allowed me to open up my mental closet when I finally gave up my defenses and looked I found that it was just a lie. I read the scholarly books and realised the mental church and God I worshipped were baseless and a fraud. I read lots and lots.
I'm still recovering / suffering. Losing my faith was devastating, I had many sleepless nights, I didn't know how I could tell my wife and extended family. Everything I had was invested in this crazy, silly, beautiful , ultimately false organisation. I went through a mental 'divorce', I'm still going through that divorce. It hurts but its getting better and I no longer feel guilt (except for those who I've influenced in the past.)
I read psychology books to understand what belief is mentally and why I could actually experience 'divine' feelings - I found out exactly how and why.
I read LDS church history books by pro / anti authors and I see the discrepancies.
I discuss my feelings as much as possible with sympathetic ears (my wife has fortunately been awesome) to keep myself grounded.
I laugh and joke about it and allow myself to enjoy what the church genuinely offers. It stops me getting bitter.
 

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Topic Summary
yesterday as i was leaving the apartment, there were two women in skirts, holding bibles at the door across from me.
i almost panicked!
i definitely want to talk the jws if they ever come to my door (no one knows me in this area) but i'm not ready yet!.



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What should I say to the Mormons?
by bluecanary 7 years ago 53 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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bluecanary
bluecanary 7 years ago

Wow, thank you so much for sharing your experience Qcmber. I didn't know we had any LDS on the board. I'm sorry you've had such a rough experience. Your story does give me hope that someday my best friend will honestly examine why I left the JWs.
Unfortunately, I had an emergency this afternoon and had to leave the house. I left a note for the girls apologizing and they left me their phone number. I'll set up another time with them next week.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 7 years ago

I reread what I wrote and I guess it does sound like I'm still in a bad place....I should balance that. I don't have guilt anymore, I never realised how much of my life was overshadowed by feelings of not being good enough, not being 'worthy' and so on. I have to say I feel like a weight has been lifted off me. The hurt that is left now is more frustration /sadness that I was fooled and that all my religious aspirations had no chance of ever being met!
All in all I'm happier than I've been for a very long time. It's odd that when I thought I was the happiest I was actually nowhere near. Now I'm excited and feel more alive than I have for years.
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 7 years ago

Just a side point but I'm fairly sure that the last significant articles the Watchtower published on Mormonism were in the first Awake! mag' which had the new masthead. You know, the one that replaced the Creators promise of paradise before the 1914 generation passed away.
I always thought that was pretty sneaky as it's no secret that the R&F have a significant curiosity about the only other well known doorstep preachers. Using the Mormons as a diversionary tactic?
Call me paranoid . . . .
 
Ténébreux
Ténébreux 7 years ago

From my experience with talking to Mormons, I'm not sure it will be such good practice for dealing with JWs. Their methods of reasoning (if you can call it that) are completely different, and they don't get uppity when you challenge them on facts. The Lord has revealed to them personally that it is all true, and that is that.
 
bluecanary
bluecanary 6 years ago

Ok, an emergency came up last week so I didn't visit with the mormons then. They came today. We had a lovely conversation. They were three very nice girls. They wanted to come back again, but I told them not to. First they'd have to convince me God exists, then they'd have to convince the Bible is an authority, then they'd have to convince me the BOM is an authority. Waste of time for everyone. I thanked them for sharing their faith with me.
They started out asking me a bit about my experiences as a JW. I told them it was a high control group; they speak for God so you have to do whatever they say. The girls laughed and said they could NEVER belong to a group like that. Eye roll.
They asked what I knew about Joseph Smith. I said, "Just the scandalous stuff." They laughed and went on with their spiel. Later, I said that JW leaders had scandals, too, but I wasn't allowed to know about those until I left the JWs. I was surprised that they seemed aware of scandals involving JS. I forget what she said, but she seemed unaware that some of his wives were also married to other men, so I mentioned it. Maybe one of them will be interested enough to look into that.
One gave her testimony about how she asked God for the truth and she had a warm hug-like feeling, etc. I asked, based on the fact that people of many religions, and even non-religious people, have such experiences, how could one know whether it was truly a God-given experience. They said that God could give such an experience and God would never lie to you. Stuff that didn't really answer the question. But maybe one of them will think about the absurdity of that reasoning.
In all, it was a very nice conversation and I'm glad I invited them. It's definitely more relaxing to be on this side of the conversation, rather than the one doing the preaching. Hopefully it will help me be more prepared for the JWs. I definitely have the knowledge to have a more useful discussion with JWs than LDS. But I need to prepare what tack I want to take with them when they show up unexpectedly. Very unexpectedly, considering I've been here a year and no one's so much as left a tract in my door.
 
Farkel
Farkel 6 years ago

bluecanary,
Ask them to explain what happened at the Mountain Meadow Massacre and watch them squirm.
I was bred and born in the Salt Lake City, Utah area. I was raised there, too, through High School. My ancestors were Mormon immigrants and pioneered their way to Utah pushing handcarts from Nauvoo, IL. I know whereof I speak.
Do a little research on the Massacre first, of course. I can guarantee you, they will give an answer as predictable as the JW answer when you asked them about 1975.
Side note: When I was a young child of about 11, I lived in Boise, Idaho for a few years and we attended the local Kingdom Hall there. There was a very old anointed JW lady who had no chin: just scar tissue where the chin should be. In my innocence, I asked her about it. She said, "it happened when I was a little girl, and I wrote about it. I will give you the magazine that has my story." And she did. It was one of those "Wild West" magazines. And I read it.
She belonged to a family that lived in the Salt Lake City area when Brigham Young was the de facto dictator there. Her Mormon family did not like the way he ran things, so they decided to peacefully leave and take up stakes further north. But, no! Brigham Young would have none of that. He sent his henchman and a posse (yes, he did have a henchman. Read up on that part, too) after those families to destroy them or bring them back. Lots of guns were fired, and this (then) little girl had her chin blown away with a shotgun off by one of Brigham Young's soldiers.
I met this woman. I read her story. I have lotsa more Mormon stories to tell you, as I grew up as an outsider dub there. Even Catholics were considered cults in a State which was dominated by another wacko Cult.
We had only 1 Catholic (a girl) in my Junior High School of 1,500 pupils!
What My Ancestors Did
Farkel
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

What do you say to Mormons?
Well, if they ever come by house I have a to-do list for those elder's. They love to do work for potential converts. Cleaning, painting, etc. Come on over and show me some love - while you do my yard work, of course.
 
Caedes
Caedes 6 years ago

'Come in, the wife's out'
Only works on members of the opposite sex, scares them off every time!
 
aSphereisnotaCircle
aSphereisnotaCircle 6 years ago

'Come in, the wife's out'
Only works on members of the opposite sex, scares them off every time!
Trust me caedes, it would scare off most men too!
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 6 years ago

Tell them that you have Swine Flu ....
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 6 years ago

I have an audio of some Mormon girls who came to tell me about Mormondom. Their local church happens to be next to the KH and I inquired about that, if they visit each other. I asked if they had an underground tunnel between their churches. That elicited a nervous laugh.
The next ones that show up will get to see this picture of me at the birthplace of their prophet, Joe Smith, in Sharon, Vermont.
They erected a torture stake there.
Joe Smith born here
 
Heaven
Heaven 6 years ago

(((( Farkel ))))
 
John Doe
John Doe 6 years ago

Kurt, that pic looks photoshopped. Is it legitimate?
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 6 years ago

Kurt, that pic looks photoshopped. Is it legitimate?
It is me, with my camera, taken at dusk with fill flash that illuminates me more than the background. Cropped and resized from 3 megapixels.
I take only legitimate pics.
More details about the place here:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=476213bf-bf48-4c71-8e8e-6f711e82778b
 

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Topic Summary
yesterday as i was leaving the apartment, there were two women in skirts, holding bibles at the door across from me.
i almost panicked!
i definitely want to talk the jws if they ever come to my door (no one knows me in this area) but i'm not ready yet!.



Related Topics
John Aquila
The new service meeting
by John Aquila 2 months ago
Dogpatch
"How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
by Dogpatch 5 years ago
new boy
MY Bethel Experience Part 17
by new boy 2 months ago
umbertoecho
Umbertoecho here.
by umbertoecho 2 months ago
new boy
My Bethel Experience Part 16
by new boy 2 months ago



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Shirtless Mormons AKA "Men on a Mission"
by megs 8 years ago 7 Replies latest 8 years ago   social current
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megs
megs 8 years ago

I am now thinking of becoming a Mormon!!!
Sounds like this lad is in a wee spot of trouble with the head Mormonators.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/07/11/shirtless.mormons.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
 
kwr
kwr 8 years ago

Well maybe the JW's should do the same to peek interest in door knockers? :wink:
 
loosie
loosie 8 years ago

LMAO
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

Well maybe the JW's should do the same to peek interest in door knockers?
kwr, do you really want to see pictures of the GB shirtless?
ewwwww.
B the X
 
lisavegas420
lisavegas420 8 years ago

elders to discuss his "conduct unbecoming a member of the church."



lisa
 
inbyathread
inbyathread 8 years ago

Ladies --- Enjoy
alt
alt
 
LovesDubs
LovesDubs 8 years ago

Oh yeah.... :smile: They should go to the doors like that. Hey sex sells doesnt it? A brochure and an invite to study with THOSE?? oh yeah...
 
kwr
kwr 8 years ago

As an entrepreneur, it's rarely a good idea to launch a product that will alienate key stakeholders.
Unfortunately, 31-year-old Chad Hardy found this out the hard way. The lifelong Mormon has been excommunicated from the church after producing a calendar that featured 12 Mormon missionaries in various state of undress. His "Men on a Mission" calendar has sold more than 10,000 copies since last year, so some people obviously liked it – but unfortunately, the Mormon authorities don’t seem to be among them…
On his MySpace page, Hardy protests that his calendar was simply "a message of religious and cultural tolerance with a sense of humor" and insists he was merely trying to "step outside the status quo of the stereotypes surrounding being a Mormon". And he certainly managed that – it’s the first time we’ve ever seen a calendar of semi-naked full-time Mormon missionaries (even if they look more like male models than bookish clerics). "This calendar has created a really cool phenomenon," says Hardy. "It has created interfaith dialog all over the world, and [the models] have exposed their stories of service and love, as well as their perfect abs."
But although the calendar has been flying off the shelves, it hasn’t exactly improved Hardy’s standing in the Mormon community. Apparently he's received "the most appalling hate mail" from other believers (plus a few born-again Christians), and has now been excommunicated, while his 12 models have also been hauled across the coals (although they appear to have escaped the same fate). The Church’s answer to Hardy's heartfelt plea – "Can't we all just be more tolerant of each other?" – appears to be: "Not really, no"…
So as an entrepreneurial venture, the calendar's been a mixed success. It may have generated about $150,000, but Hardy seems to have alienated a large part of his core constituency in the process – which could make the business unsustainable in the long term. Although like every good entrepreneur, Hardy is refusing to give up easily – apparently the 2009 edition goes on sale on September 1. You just can't keep a good missionary down...
 

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