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JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding
by cofty 8 hours ago 39 Replies latest 25 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 8 hours ago
Sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its Jehovah's Witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his Full English breakfast.
Alan MacKay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in Arnold, Nottingham.
After receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

 +2 / -0
SafeAtHome
SafeAtHome 7 hours ago
The photo of that breakfast looks totally disgusting to this Yank!😝 However, that being beside the point, I never understand why employers have to hire people who, for whatever reason, refuse to fulfill all requirements of the job. For example, some pharmacists will not fill prescriptions for birth control or the "morning after" pill. Well then, go do something else.
 +5 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 7 hours ago
Pretty impressive that this sister would stand firmly in the faith. Now if only a member of the Governing Body would instead of running for the hills like Jackson did by not saying proudly that they are the only spokespersons for God.
 +3 / -2
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 7 hours ago

Sainsbury's who explained the error was down to a mix up between the kitchen team on duty.
A spokeswoman said a member of staff had misunderstood that the chef had asked them to prepare the black pudding, not that black pudding could not be served.
Put like that, it is a little more understandable. The dub asked someone else to do it.. Instead they ran out to the customer and told him to go away....
It is still a tad extreme though. there is no requirement not to prepare it, only not to eat it themselves. When I was a devout dub and an elder I worked for a spell in a deli. I used to serve and slice black pudding to customers. It was not a problem for me

 +1 / -0
undercover
undercover 6 hours ago

It's like the ole cigarette deal here in Southern US. You couldn't work for RJ Reynolds or Lorillard or Phillip Morris, MAKING cigarettes. But you could work for the 7-11 C-store selling them.
So, if all this 'chef' had to do was add the black pudding to the rest of the order, it's not against his religion. If, however, he was actually preparing the stuff (and I have no idea if it's made to order, or pre-made, and held till requested), then it might fall under the restrictions, as far as JW dogma goes anyway.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 6 hours ago

Just as a point of information I think the chef is female.
My wife used to work for a JW baker who was a prominent elder. He would make hot cross buns at Easter but one of the other JW ladies who worked in the shop would refuse to sell them. Bizarre!
 
DogGone
DogGone 6 hours ago
Excellent, in my opinion. You should not be forced to do something against your conscience. Forcing an atheist who works at a funeral home to say "God bless you, I will pray for you" or forcing a JW to handle blood, a Catholic to hand out birth control, or a Quaker to manufacture munitions is just wrong, in my opinion. Society works because we tolerate differences in each other and allow reasonable accommodation for differences. Asking another to perform the task is reasonable. Refusing to find a solution (like not referring a patient to a doctor who CAN provide birth control) is unacceptable for the same reason.

 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty 6 hours ago
DogGone - I could not disagree more. If you get paid to do a job do it. Keep religion at home where it belongs.
 +6 / -0
DogGone
DogGone 6 hours ago

Why does it belong only at home?

Do you feel the same way about other questions of integrity and conscience or only those that arise from religion?

 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 6 hours ago

Why does it belong only at home?
Because a person's irrational superstitions should not affect the rest of society.
Do you feel the same way about other questions of integrity and conscience or only those that arise from religion?
The question is too vague. What other questions do you have in mind?
 +1 / -1

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JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding
by cofty 8 hours ago 39 Replies latest 28 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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DogGone
DogGone 5 hours ago


Because a person's irrational superstitions should not affect the rest of society.
The test I used was "reasonable accommodation", in my opinion an excellent development in Common Law. Since the issue at question is trivial, I'm gathering you don't want irrational superstitions to affect society in even the tiniest of ways. Is that a fair statement?
Leaving aside the determination of what is "irrational", it is a very regressive stand to take. It is the same argument fundamentalists have made about homosexuals, Catholics, the transgender, the mentally handicapped, Jews, etc.

I don't want to live in a society where people have to leave parts of themselves at home no matter how trivial the affect to Society. There are plenty of irrational superstitions out there. There are plenty of things that were once viewed as sicknesses or superstitions that society has come to embrace. A society that sets upon itself to make a determination and suppress even reasonable accommodation presents a greater danger than a society which simply allows people to be wrong, so long as they are not unreasonably affecting society or others.


The question is too vague. What other questions do you have in mind?
I know we share a distaste for religious superstition. But, reasonable accommodation applies to other spheres of thought and action. I was wondering, if your uncompromising stance applies only to religiously derived actions or to other ethical systems and actions.

One of my staff has an irrational fear of Halloween figurines. I have seen her in tears when a scary doll was near her desk. I think it is a reasonable accommodation to ask others to help with Halloween decorations and to ensure they don't have anything near her desk or that will surprise her where she works in our office. If she worked for a retailer, I would hope they would be sensitive to her. Would you agree?

My mother has, what I consider, an irrational view of the sanctity of animals. I do not eat foie gras in front of her for this reason. If she worked in a restaurant she would ask someone else to prepare it. It bothers her that much. Just one item on the menu, she isn't a vegan. Should she leave her concern for the treatment of animals at home and not affect the rest of society?

A really good friend of mine reads too many questionable internet blogs. He has determined that radio waves are unhealthy for his family. No wireless devices in his home. I've tried to point out the EMR coming from our sun, but he is convinced we are all being killed. He might ask to work at a spot as far away from a wireless access point as practical. Is this the sort of irrational superstition that should not affect the rest of society?
Not to go ten rounds on a bunch of scenarios, I was merely wondering if you wish all irrational requests suppressed so they don't affect society or only those arising from religion.

 
cofty
cofty 4 hours ago

Since the issue at question is trivial, I'm gathering you don't want irrational superstitions to affect society in even the tiniest of ways. Is that a fair statement?
No.
If you work at a supermarket cafe cooking all-day breakfasts it is not trivial to refuse to cook part of the menu.
It is the same argument fundamentalists have made about homosexuals, Catholics, the transgender, the mentally handicapped, Jews, etc.
How strange that you should say that since it is actually the precise opposite.
My argument is that fundies should not be allowed to discriminate against others while hiding behind the excuse of religion.
I don't want to live in a society where people have to leave parts of themselves at home no matter how trivial the affect to Society.
I didn't mention trivial, you did. However I do want to live in a society where religion gets no special privileges. Secular societies where people are free to believe anything they want at home or in church work well.
You are falsely portraying me as unreasonable or uncompromising even in trivial details. This is a straw man.



 +2 / -1
freddo
freddo 4 hours ago

In the Old Testament couldn't the Israelites sell an unbled carcass to a non-Israelite unbeliever?
Deut. 14 v 21
 
cofty
cofty 4 hours ago
Only if it was found already dead.
 
freddo
freddo 4 hours ago

Well it would have already been dead by the time it got to the JW chef.
 
DogGone
DogGone 3 hours ago

I apologize if I have misrepresented your view. I asked if that was how you felt since your statement was unqualified. I admit, I don't understand.
We have a difference of opinion on the triviality of a side dish at an all-day breakfast, fair enough.
My statement was that "Society works because we tolerate differences in each other and allow reasonable accommodation for differences. Asking another to perform the task is reasonable." When you replied that "I could not disagree more. If you get paid to do a job do it. Keep religion at home where it belongs." I read that you disagreed with the concept of reasonable accommodation, I did not read it as meaning that you find this specific accommodation unreasonable. I'm sorry for misreading you.

Frankly, though, the statement "keep religion at home where it belongs" is bigoted. You don't want society to tolerate the bigotry of others, I get that. But, why fight bigotry with bigotry? People were once told to keep their "gayness" or their "transgender" at home. In Canada we recently had a federal election that turned, in part, on whether Quebec should ban religious head coverings from government employees... leave it at home, the critics said. Among those critics were many "fundies" who are discriminating against others based on religion, just one that is not theirs.

Your argument surprises me, do you feel the case in question is an example of discrimination? How so?


You are falsely portraying me as unreasonable or uncompromising even in trivial details. This is a straw man.
I was not meaning to portray, I was trying to ask and, even though immodest, to attempt to enlighten and broaden your perspective on the subject. I'm sorry it came across as a straw man. At this point, I don't know where you draw the line on what is reasonable or trivial and where you would be willing to have society compromise. I retract any insinuation I have made about where you fall on these matters, other than that fullfulling a work requirement to personally prepare a given breakfast side is a non-trivial matter.

 
Simon
Simon 3 hours ago

Put like that, it is a little more understandable. The dub asked someone else to do it.. Instead they ran out to the customer and told him to go away ...
I don't know, I think corporates always try and put a different spin on things after they have messed up to try and paint things as a misunderstanding instead of a snafu.
There was one a few days ago where some corporate lawyers threatened a guy who published software packages over trademark of their name (BS). He removed the packages. Turns out they were used in lots of software which then all broke. They then tried to make out they weren't threatening him because suddenly there was a lot of negative publicity in their direction.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/
https://medium.com/@azerbike/i-ve-just-liberated-my-modules-9045c06be67c#.a4ohbzdp7

I'm sure some things are mis-reported but I'm also skeptical of some of the attempts that companies do to try and dig themselves out of holes.
As for the chef, idiotic. If she can't or won't cook what is on the menu then she shouldn't be there. No different to some other religion refusing to cook bacon - get another job, my right to bacons supersedes anyone else's religious convictions.
I think that's something we can all agree on.
 +3 / -1
cofty
cofty 3 hours ago

DogGone - Why are you equating religiously based superstitions with sexuality and phobias?
Here is your post I disagreed with.
You should not be forced to do something against your conscience. Forcing an atheist who works at a funeral home to say "God bless you, I will pray for you" or forcing a JW to handle blood, a Catholic to hand out birth control, or a Quaker to manufacture munitions is just wrong
Nobody is forced to do a job that includes tasks that conflict with their conscience.
If you can find an example of a Quaker who was forced to work in a munitions factory or an undertaker who orders his employees to repeat religious platitudes I would be fascinated to know more.
 
cofty
cofty 3 hours ago

In Canada we recently had a federal election that turned, in part, on whether Quebec should ban religious head coverings from government employees... leave it at home, the critics said. Among those critics were many "fundies" who are discriminating against others based on religion, just one that is not theirs.
Which is a very good argument for a totally secular public square. Treat all religions the same. Keep it at home or in church.
 +1 / -0
jwleaks
jwleaks 2 hours ago




 +4 / -0

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Topic Summary
sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....



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JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding
by cofty 8 hours ago 39 Replies latest 29 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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DogGone
DogGone 2 hours ago

I wasn't equating religious superstitions with phobias and sexuality, I was asking you if you would accommodate those differently than religious superstitions. You could say, "yes, I would, completely different". You could say "no, people should keep these things out of the public square".

I was equating bigotry against religion with bigotry against sexuality or gender identity. That is because, bigotry is, by definition, intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself. I find the question of tolerance and accommodation at the heart of this discussion and the kind of society we want to live in.
Moving from phobias and sexuality and back to the more analogous region of ideas and beliefs, what about situations like my friend and his wifi nuttiness?
I appreciate your pointing out the specific part of my post you were disagreeing with. Bad wording on my part. I meant, no one should be required, on pain of losing employment, to do something which is against their conscience when reasonable accommodation can be made.
The history of Quakers in WWI and WWII and the issues around alternative service and munitions manufacturing are well documented. Apparently an atheist airman in Nevada was going to lose his job unless he said the oath "so help me God". Nevertheless, it is tedious to dig up examples for a thought experiment.

You do say that people aren't forced to take these jobs, and that is a fair point. What about forcing someone who has a job, on pain of job loss, to do something that can otherwise be reasonably accommodated?

 
Simon
Simon 2 hours ago
Gods are crap at breakfasts. No wonder his follower are always angry and bitter. They just need the magic of bacon.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

what about situations like my friend and his wifi nuttiness?
What about him? Would I employ him to work in an office full of wireless devices? No. Would I allow him to use a desk further from the router if it didn't affect his work? Yes.
What about forcing someone who has a job, on pain of job loss, to do something that can otherwise be reasonably accommodated?
That depends on the specifics.
I would not employ a GP who refuses to prescribe birth control or a chef who won't cook bacon.
Apparently an atheist airman in Nevada was going to lose his job unless he said the oath "so help me God"
That would be illegal under the constitution.
 
cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

Why are you equating religiously based superstitions with sexuality and phobias? - Me
I wasn't equating religious superstitions with phobias and sexuality, - You

It is the same argument fundamentalists have made about homosexuals, Catholics, the transgender, the mentally handicapped, Jews, etc. - You
 
bohm
bohm 2 hours ago
I sort of get the appeal of this dish if you wish to not live so long, but can someone explain to me what the single half tomato is supposed to do? It's just nasty and soggy and does not seem to fit in at all...
 +2 / -0
DogGone
DogGone 2 hours ago

Cofty, that last post is a non-sequitur. How is that equating superstition with sexuality? It is equating the bigotry - the statement they should leave it at home. I heard it a hundred times about gay pride parades. "I don't care if they are gay, but get it out of my face, leave it at home". Bigotry is bigotry. That is what I'm equating
 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 2 hours ago

Not to be stupid, but what is that thing on the right hand side of the plate, a giant chicken nugget?
Also, where are the pancakes?
Thirdly, there's a difference between asking for accommodations for something that is a core component of your job and asking for an accommodation at your workplace for things that don't affect your job description.
If wifi man is a systems tech who doesn't want to work with wifi, then, no, that would not be a reasonable accommodation.
But, if wifi man works in an office where it is in use, but his job description does not require using it, then it might be reasonable to allow him to sit as far away from the router as possible.
If your job description a chef includes cooking the entire menu, then, no, it is not reasonable to expect to refuse to cook an item on that menu.
If you work at an office that has a breakfast for the staff occasionally, then it would be reasonable for an employee to request to not be the person who served the black pudding to the others.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

I heard it a hundred times about gay pride parades. "I don't care if they are gay, but get it out of my face, leave it at home". Bigotry is bigotry. That is what I'm equating
Why are you equating it?
Objecting to a chef wanting to pick and choose what they will cook is not bigotry. Refusing to employ a GP who won't prescribe birth control is not bigotry. Declining to employ a shop assistant who insists on wearing a burka is not bigotry.
Homophobia is bigotry.
People choose their superstitions they don't choose their sexuality.
If you are looking for an unreasonable, intransigent person to criticise I'm not that imaginary enemy.
 +1 / -1
DogGone
DogGone 2 hours ago
GreatTeacher, I completely agree with what you wrote. I'm not sure what the job description was or what employment arrangement was made for this JW lady, but if that was the requirement and agreement, I agree. The fact the employer defended the employee makes me think there is more than we know about the relationship and understanding here, but I really don't know.

 
cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

what is that thing on the right hand side of the plate, a giant chicken nugget?
It's a sort of deep fried mash potato in breadcrumbs thing. Horrible!
 

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Topic Summary
sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....



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JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding
by cofty 8 hours ago 39 Replies latest 33 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 2 hours ago

Ahh, I'll pass then...potatoes should be diced and pan fried with onions for breakfast. :)
 
Simon
Simon 2 hours ago

Even if you don't want to take a morning after pill, it shouldn't stop you handing one to someone.
Even if you don't want to eat bacon, it shouldn't stop you from cooking it for someone else. Last time I checked you don't cook food with your mouth (well, unless I'm cooking bacon - some does 'accidentally' get eaten).
The reality is that these are people trying to force other people to abstain from what they themselves have decided to abstain from, to impose their beliefs on others. In both cases they can do their job without impinging on their religious convictions at all. In both cases they are an intrinsic part of doing their job so if they don't want to do those things they don't want that job.
That is nothing like being bigoted toward some group or other. It's a trick to try and claim they are the ones being discriminated against when they are really trying to impose their views on others who don't want them and just want some bacon.
In conclusion. Bacon. I just made some. It's best baked in the oven until crispy.
 +2 / -0
Listener
Listener an hour ago
It's not right that this chef gets to impose her conscience on a customer by refusing to serve something that is offered to the customer on their menu. It's rude and offensive.
 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon an hour ago

the statement "keep religion at home where it belongs" is bigoted. You don't want society to tolerate the bigotry of others, I get that. But, why fight bigotry with bigotry? People were once told to keep their "gayness" or their "transgender" at home.
The big difference is that your sexuality is who you are. You cannot change it. Being told to be different or you are not allowed would be bigoted.
But religion is different. It is not who you are, it is a coat you wear (usually because your parents gave it to you) and people often change their coat because they realize it's old, worn out and smells of pee (that's my view of religion).
Someone's sexuality doesn't really affect or impact anyone else beside them and their partner(s) but different people's religious "demands" would cause conflict if allowed - that's why they should be kept at home or in church because how do you pick who should win? There should be absolute limits to religion because religion comes up with stupid ideas like "bacon isn't allowed" or "women should be covered" or "infidels should be killed". All of these are abhorrent ideas, most of all the ban on bacon.
If I believe uncovered women are an affront to god (trust me, I don't) then how can that be reconciled with someone else's freedom to be uncovered? (please, be my guest).
Who you are (color, height, sexuality etc...) does not impose any limits on other people's rights (although religious people often claim it does - they are wrong). Therefore, the notions of discrimination are not the same.
 +2 / -0
average joe
average joe an hour ago

#1 There is not mention of termination of the employee which is often the case when they have done something wrong and it makes it to the media.
#2 The restaurant defended the chef by saying there was a mixup in the kitchen in which blood pudding which was regularly served was supposed to be made and served by someone else.
#3 The chef is apparently valued and appreciated as they still have their job. Perhaps what the chef brings to the business is more important then whether or not they actually make the blood pudding themselves or have someone else do it like many other chefs who assign tasks to their staff. Perhaps, This is one of many company's who value employees that are religious and come with benefits that non religious people do not have or perhaps the chefs religion isnt a problem for the business. Surely, the issue of the blood pudding being prepared by the jw was addressed at their hire date or shortly thereafter and it was approved for others to make it and the staff was fully aware of this arrangement as blood pudding was served regularly. The only exception would be for a new hire who had not yet had time to learn the acceptable arrangement. This brings more questions though.

#4 I want to know why if the chef asked the employee to make the blood pudding why he told the officer the chef wouldn't make it? Was the employee lazy? Was it a deliberate attempt to make jws look bad? How do you confuse the chef telling you to make the pudding with telling you we refuse to make that pudding which is made regularly? I admit however, unlikely it is possible but highly suspect!
#5 How does an officer not getting his pudding one time make the news? Did he call the news because he didnt get his pudding???? Did the employee call the news to make the jw look bad?? Did someone else who wasnt even involved call the news because they were so distraught the officer didnt get his pudding?? Or they hated jws so much they called the news about pudding? How the hell is this even news ?? Basically, the news story is really nothing more then the officer is cheezed off because he didnt get his pudding..... due to staff confusion... This isnt news at all.. I couldnt tell you how many times I went to a place that didnt have what i came there for or screwed up my order. I ordered something else and didnt cry about it to the news like a little whiny baby especially over pudding!!! freakin pudding hahahaha Be a man about it.. move on keep smiling officer. I see pudding in your future. one day without pudding is not going to kill you.
#6 Somehow an article which said nothing more then an officer was not served pudding due to staff confusion and hes cheezed off about it turned into this long debate about religion in the workplace etc etc etc ... the article really didnt say much at all and i find it fascinating how its considered news and how people are having lengthy discussions which have really littleif anything to do with staff confusion that this article is about.
 
average joe
average joe an hour ago
Also, he got his meal free, his name in the media and you can be sure hes eaten plenty of blood pudding and will eat plenty of pudding in his future. phew! I am so glad that officers going to survive this terrible ordeal. hahahahah
 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher an hour ago

It made the news because religious people not wanting to do their jobs because of said religion is a big issue lately.
County clerks not wanting to provide marriage licenses to gay people,
Pharmacists not wanting to prescribe contraception,
Chefs not wanting to serve black pudding...
 
Simon
Simon an hour ago

Supposed I ordered a cooked breakfast and I was particularly looking forward to some eggs or bacon (probably both).
Now the plate is brought to me and it's missing the thing I was anticipating and looking forward to the most.
I say "erm, excuse me, where is my bacon? I'm pretty sure the bacon breakfast is meant to have bacon!" and am told "oh, well, the chef says bacon is evil and god doesn't want them to make it for you".
I am going to be very unhappy and probably complain.
Sometimes companies double-down on a stupid decision because they don't know how to back down or don't know which is the right thing to do (because religious people are often litigious about their nuttery).
Now I have no bacon and am being told to sod off and shut up. You bet I'm going to call someone and tell them about it.
That's why it's a story.
 
DogGone
DogGone an hour ago

Average Joe, I read the situation the same as you do. And reading his response, it seems he refused to eat the meal and left in a huff. Why? Because he wanted blood pudding? Well, no... because he went home and ate a couple hours later and he doesn't have it at home. He got in a huff because someone else's beliefs inconvenienced him.
Had they run out of blood pudding I'm sure he would have been disappointed but reasonable. Had he been told the lady who makes it had to go to the hospital, sorry it isn't available today, he would have dealt with it, I'm sure. So, my take is that it isn't even the fact he was inconvenienced... it was that someone's religion dared inconvenience him.
To me, he is an absolute tool and a symptom of a problem.
 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 33 minutes ago

Yes, that is the problem; someone else's religion inconvenienced him, because he will be inconvenienced every time he's served by her.
A sick employee? That might happen once. Running out? Well, the store is going to do everything in its power to make sure that doesn't happen again.
Ms. JW chef will always refuse to serve him.
The store realizes this is a problem and they try to cover it up by saying it was a misunderstanding. But, they know it's a serious faux pas because it's insulting.
A customer hears that they won't be served because of a person's religious convictions that class the item he has asked to eat as sinful. That's an insult. You're being served an item that has been deemed so disgusting by an employee that he can't even touch it to serve you.
Insulting the customer is not a good way to do business. That's why the customer was offended and that's why the store explained it away as a mistake.
 

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sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....



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Is it true: the memorial will stop after the last anointed have passed away?
by FinchAndWeston 8 hours ago 14 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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FinchAndWeston
FinchAndWeston 8 hours ago
I heard that the memorial will stop after the last anointed have passed away ... is this information true/false? Just curious. It's secondhand.
 
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 8 hours ago

Well the last of the anointed should've passed away a long, long time ago, the numbers have gone up of the folks that are partaking. How does that happen?, those in the Cong who aren't wrapped too tight think that Almighty Jah spoke to them and said I want you to float up to heaven and be one of my chosen people.
They used to say something like the memorial will end or that's when the Big A will come decades ago, I'm a born-in so didn't really listen at the meetings, but I don't know how they currently flip-flop around that issue.
 
leaving_quietly
leaving_quietly 8 hours ago

Let's answer this from a biblical perspective.

First, not all the anointed will pass away, so that disproves the statement.

Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed - 1 Cor 15:51,52
When, then, will the memorial stop? Perhaps this is what this verse is referring to. Not 100% sure.

For whenever you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes. - 1 Cor 11:26
Now, that said, when the Lord comes, what does he do?
Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. - Matt 24:29-31
And...
For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. - 1 Thess 4:15-17
But, will the memorial actually stop? That's somewhat debatable. I have no clear answer on it, other than Christ's own words:
As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf, and after saying a blessing, he broke it, and giving it to the disciples, he said: “Take, eat. This means my body.” 27 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I say to you: I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.” - Matt 26:26-29







 
StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel 8 hours ago

I heard the same things at our memorial. Thought it was just a bad speech. Bad speech because we all 'know' what the bible says. When Jesus comes and all of the anointed are selected, no one would part take anymore. Two things stroke me though...
1- The bible says we would no longer do this once Jesus is back but is actually referring to, in the views of JW, to partaking. That doesn't automatically mean that a memorial or remembrance has to cease. We could basically say that this annual ritual, again based on the views and belief of JW, that this memorial started the night of passover in Egypt and has been celebrated since, even when the perfect sacrificial lamb has already been offered.
2- The tone of the speech made me feel they were referring to more current times and not so much to the new system.. Almost like if they were preparing the R&F for a culmination. IF we couple this with the latest trend of questioning the mental health of the anointed, it would not be difficult to imagine the end of this ceremony. Remember, in 2014 they posed the question out there as to wether that could be our last memorial. At the moment we all thought they were banking on the fear factor of the 100 years of the kingdom but, while the later could be true, it is interesting how this pairs up with the talk given this week.
While I can't say with certainty, it makes sense to think that they would want to end it if they can pull it off. For once, is a celebration that probably brings them little revenue. As far as I recall they have never used the memorial to beg for money. In many cases they rent places to do it so it actually costs money. On top of that, this is the last remnant of power for the anointed. If you were to stop the memorial, being anointed would not amount to more than another title without significance. The anointed are losing ground while growing in number. Most JWs with "two fingers of forehead" (in Spanish used as a measure of bare minimum intelligence) realizes that, wether is by culmination or elimination, the anointed have to all go (edit: not all go but at least reduce numbers, not grow) before the GT comes around. With the number of partakers growing, they are undermining the idea of 'the end is near'. What better way give themselves another bit of credibility, cut cost and finally remove the power the anointed, if they ever had any, still hold?
 
FinchAndWeston
FinchAndWeston 8 hours ago
interesting comments....
 
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 8 hours ago
are the annointed overlapping ?
 +1 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 7 hours ago

Here is the outline if anyone wants to see.



THIS IS A SPECIAL OCCASION (6 min.)
We are here to show our appreciation for a superlative act of love
On this date almost 2,000 years ago, Jesus Christ gave his life in order to deliver us from the curse of sin and death
Jesus commanded his disciples to remember his loving act once a year in a simple ceremony [Read Luke 22:19, 20]
In obedience to Jesus’ command, millions in 236 lands will observe the Lord’s Evening Meal tonight
They will meet in Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls, in private homes, in rented facilities—even in prisons and open fields
In countries where our work is banned, appreciative ones will risk their freedom in order to obey Jesus’ command
[Mention adjustments some in audience may have made in order to attend, and warmly commend them for making the effort]
Last year _____________________________ observed the Lord’s Evening Meal worldwide
Tonight we will briefly answer the following questions:
(1) Why do humans need to be delivered from the curse of sin and death?
(2) Who benefit from Jesus’ loving sacrifice?
(3) Who partake of the bread and the wine?
(4) Besides attending this meeting, what else must we do to show our appreciation for what Christ has done for us?
WHY WE NEEDED DELIVERANCE (7 min.)
The first man, Adam, had the prospect of living forever
His enjoyment of everlasting life was dependent on his obedience
By disobeying God, Adam personally lost the prospect of everlasting life
Later, when children were born to him, they came under the death sentence along with Adam [Read Romans 5:12]
Could righthearted descendants of Adam ever be delivered from the sad condition they inherited?
They could, by becoming part of a different family!
Obedient descendants of Adam can join Jesus’ family
Jesus is “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45)
The first Adam set his descendants on the path to destruction
The last Adam, Jesus, provided our deliverance through his obedience as far as death [Read Romans 5:19]
But why did Jesus have to die?
Not for any wrong he committed; Jesus was without sin (1Pe 2:22)
Jesus took our place, suffering death for us so that we could live forever [Read Hebrews 2:9]
It warms our heart to think that Jesus was willing to change places with us—to suffer and die so that we could have life!
But life where? In heaven or on earth?
WHO BENEFIT FROM JESUS’ LOVING SACRIFICE? (10 min.)
The Bible describes two destinies, or hopes, for faithful humans
A limited number will receive everlasting life in heaven; the vast majority will enjoy life on a paradise earth, according to God’s original purpose for mankind
Those with either hope can become members of God’s family
Those with a heavenly hope are called Christ’s “brothers” (Heb 2:17)
Those with an earthly hope, his children (Isa 9:6)
We can all decide whether to join God’s family or not, but we cannot choose where we will serve him, in heaven or on earth
Cannot ‘decide’ to be “born again” (Joh 3:5-8; w09 4/1 5-6)
Jehovah determines where we will best serve
144,000 will join Christ in heavenly Kingdom [Read Revelation 14:1]
They are all Christians, having the name of Jesus figuratively written on their foreheads
They also proudly bear “the name of his Father”—Jehovah
God’s spirit gives them personal assurance that they have the heavenly hope (Ro 8:15-17)
These partake of the bread and the wine
The vast majority of those attending the Lord’s Evening Meal do not have the heavenly hope
It thrills them to contemplate the blessings that God has in store for them on a paradise earth:
Children are eager for the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:6-9 [Read]
Sick or infirm yearn to see Isaiah 35:5, 6 come true [Read]
Family men look forward to the day when Isaiah 65:21-23 will become a reality [Read]
While on earth, Jesus healed the sick and even raised the dead
He longs to reverse the effects of Adam’s sin on the human race
Can you see yourself in the new world? God wants you to be there!
WHO SHOULD PARTAKE OF THE BREAD AND THE WINE? (4 min.)
Both those with the heavenly hope and those with the earthly hope benefit from Jesus’ sacrifice
However, those with the earthly hope do not partake of the emblems
Why not?
Because the bread and the wine represent Christ’s body and blood in a special sense:
Bread represents Jesus’ body given in behalf of anointed (w06 2/15 23, box; w85 2/15 12-13)
Wine represents Jesus’ blood as it applies to those in new covenant, the 144,000
Cup of wine represents new covenant (Lu 22:20)
The Lord’s Evening Meal will be observed as long as Christians with the heavenly hope are on earth [Read 1 Corinthians 11:26]
Once the Lord “arrives,” he will take the last of the 144,000 home to be with him in heaven (Joh 14:1-3)
Those with the earthly hope will no longer observe the Memorial
Will not partake of the emblems then, so do not partake now
OBSERVING THE MEMORIAL OF CHRIST’S DEATH TODAY (10 min.)
Tonight we will follow the pattern Jesus set for observing the Lord’s Evening Meal
[Read and comment briefly on 1 Corinthians 11:23, 24]
Jesus offered prayer and passed bread to 11 faithful apostles
Unleavened bread represents Jesus’ sinless body, given in behalf of his anointed followers
[Qualified brother offers brief prayer, and then the bread is passed; optional whether speaker comments while emblems are being served]
[Read and comment briefly on 1 Corinthians 11:25]
Jesus prayed and then offered wine to followers
Red wine pictures his precious “blood of the covenant” (Mt 26:28)
[Another qualified brother prays briefly, and then the wine is passed]
WHAT MUST WE DO TO SHOW OUR APPRECIATION? (8 min.)
Jehovah wants you to be a member of his family
Jesus’ sacrifice opened the way for you to have a precious relationship with your loving heavenly Father
You must obey the rules of the household (1Ti 3:14, 15)
God will help you to live by his standards—he wants you to succeed!
When you are discouraged, pour out your heart to him in earnest prayer
Build faith in God by taking in knowledge
The more you get to know about God and Christ, the more you will love them
Attend meetings regularly, not merely on special occasions, such as this one
It has been heartwarming for us to consider what Jesus did for us
In coming days and weeks, continue to reflect appreciatively on his sacrifice
[Conclude by reading 1 John 4:9]
 +1 / -0
FinchAndWeston
FinchAndWeston 7 hours ago

The Lord’s Evening Meal will be observed as long as Christians with the heavenly hope are on earth [Read 1 Corinthians 11:26]
Once the Lord “arrives,” he will take the last of the 144,000 home to be with him in heaven (Joh 14:1-3)
Those with the earthly hope will no longer observe the Memorial
Will not partake of the emblems then, so do not partake now.
... this is exactly what was repeated to me ... fascinating! I guess they mean "when the end comes" ... wait, is that when the lord arrives ... didn't he come invisibly in 1914? I'm confused ....
Thanks ttdtt
 
RichardHaley
RichardHaley 7 hours ago

The CO gave the memorial talk locally here.
He asked the question "how long will we continue to celebrate the memorial?"
He said "lets let the bible answer that for us."
He then read: For whenever you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes. - 1 Cor 11:26.
He then said that after that when the 144k are all in heaven the memorial will no longer be observed.



 
ttdtt
ttdtt 7 hours ago
haaa - Pick a lane and stick with it CO :smile:
 

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Is it true: the memorial will stop after the last anointed have passed away?
by FinchAndWeston 9 hours ago 14 Replies latest 5 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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bats in the belfry
bats in the belfry 7 hours ago

He then said that after that when the 144k are all in heaven the memorial will no longer be observed.
. . . so, then, the memorial celebration will come to a finish before Armageddon. The latest teaching says that the 'remnant' will be called to heaven - raptured - before the big A.
Correct?
 +1 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 7 hours ago

I could read the great answers from others, they probably use the Bible and make cult comments wonderfully.
But let me just say, "It's a made-up fiction, it's their power structure. The 'anointed' will be in charge as long as Watchtower exists. One day, before the last 'anointed' is gone, Watchtower will fail, so NO- The Memorial will stop BEFORE the last anointed is gone." I just hope it happens in my lifetime, but I won't count on it.
 
elderINewton
elderINewton 6 hours ago

I'm with you OTWO.
The memorial is pure power control. Watch everyone pass the wine and bread so that you all acknowledge someone is in charge of you, and controls you. Its us the GB. The exercise does nothing more than support the class structure they have developed for themselves.
Maybe it will die out when the overlapping generation that overlapped the last overlapping generation. But they would have to kill the control structure or make it different say, only the anointed should touch the bread and wine, so that its a video/live link to a bethel memorial. Would give them control over number of partakers as well. (Don't steal my idea without credit WT).
Can you imagine the excitement of all getting to watch TPT and the rest of the GB slurping away. It would make them even bigger gods in the eyes of most JW.

 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 6 hours ago

ttdtt: thank you for that posted outline. To me, if any of this is relevant, the memorial should be celebrated eternally, because of the eternal benefit. Is it not called the eternal covenant? The New covenant is for forgiveness of "sins", so applies to the Earthly class first and last. On the outline:
everlasting life in heaven; the vast majority will enjoy life on a paradise earth. note : one notch down, not immortality in heaven, not eternal life. but only life on earth.
Once the Lord “arrives,” he will take the last of the 144,000 home to be with him in heaven --" I thought he had come in 1914, 1918.?
"Jehovah determines where we will best serve." The word serve reminds me of more wt drudgery, no thanks. enough is enough.
 
Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane 5 hours ago
It's true... After the 3rd overlapping generation passes...
 

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Topic Summary
i heard that the memorial will stop after the last anointed have passed away ... is this information true/false?
just curious.
it's secondhand.



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Listener
Dis-association Vs Inactivity
by Listener 3 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment 2 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment 2 months ago
What Now?
Our Letter to Our Family
by What Now? 3 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



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Defining What is the Truth about the Truth of the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion
by Finkelstein 9 hours ago 11 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein 9 hours ago

In an endeavor to clearly define the truth about the truth of the JW religion, whats your personal perception of what you understand of how this religion came to be, in its inherit beginning and how it was able to sustain itself over the years ?

From my own perspective I think the strategic actions by its founding leaders to draw attention to their own published works such as the singular endeavors starting from C T Russell and onward.
The self proposing recognition by people such as J Rutherford, that god had specifically (1919) chosen " His " organization exclusively, is really where and when this assuming man made power began and continued to flourish.
But the real significant thing that created attention to the public's eyes and imagination was when both Russell and Rutherford proclaimed that Christ had returned and he had started to divide and choose who was going to be saved from destruction and live on in a earthly paradise and who was to be killed at the soon to come day of judgement.

Strategically one of the most important ways to show your spiritual devotion to Jehovah in appeasement to him and therefore save yourself, was to publicly distribute the literature the WTS published.

This was said to be life saving work not only for the person participating in this activity but also to the public to whom they were preaching to.
This is another reason why counting time in service is integrated into the organization's monthly publishers report card, how many placements of literature were distributed and so on.

Everything is to create something outwardly appealing to the public's view, right down to the way you dress, to the length of your hair and many other subjective controls to create an image of appealing worthiness, pretty much like a private business designates how its employees are to dress, talk, look etc.

One shouldn't pursue education because that meant you are not supporting the suggestion that the world is coming to an end soon. An over abundance of controls were devised into making the JW adherents stand out as something unique and distinct from all the other Christian based faiths and by doing was to create a superficial appearance of righteousness and purity assumed by each individual and to the extenuating organization as a whole..

Power was proportionately offered out to separate individuals who showed steadfast obedience and loyalty to the GB men, who self identified themselves as having the most spiritual strength within the organization, who were also perceived to have the most spiritual power to repel the evil intentions of Satan the devil who was said to be the real cognitive reason why there was so much pain, suffering and misery in the world.
Because this capability to repel Satan and his wicked evil forces, the JWS leaders proclaimed that JWS are therefore the happiest people on earth in knowing what they are doing is going to eventually save their lives and live on in a earthly paradise.
So there is many engaging elements into why people get involved into this organization, into why they do the things they do and say the things they say, all to the dismaying acknowledgement by outside observers. 
JWS are truly captives of a concept, why and how that captivating concept came to be is another interesting and compelling story to be told.

 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 7 hours ago

The problem is when trying to present TTATT to someone, we usually have no clear idea what will have an effect on them.
Few are bothered about Doctrine, I was, (a rare exception), most are not bothered by scandals concerning Chazzer or Boozer, most are upset by revelations concerning Abuse, but even so, many manage somehow to continue as JW's despite the huge problem in their beloved org. Many seem more affected by the fact that there is not real love in the Org. They have been familiar for so long with the words of Jesus about how to tell his true disciples, that the evident lack of love has an effect that is quite telling.
I was fascinated to learn, after I had woken up and left, about the various shenanigans that went on the early days, a little under Russell's presidency, loads under that of Rutherford, and it seems to me that luck more than judgement kept them going.
Rutherford knew about Publicity, that alone kept the WT's head above water. Holy Spirit was sorely lacking.
I think if we can get an honest-hearted JW to examine any of the things I have mentioned, in a thorough and in-depth way, with a mind as open as possible, then they cannot but conclude that what they are part of is the opposite of The Truth.
 
Hadriel
Hadriel 7 hours ago

Doctrine is only good for those that served in some capacity as an Elder, MS, C.O., D.O. pioneer etc. You have to have a deep understanding of the doctrine to start with before you can unwind it as false.
More often than not a personal experience or experience they are aware of where someone was treated unjustly or shown no love has greater effect than doctrine.
The ARC and the UK charity commissions among others that are sure to pop up are likely to have quite the effect over time.
 +1 / -1
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 7 hours ago

One could say the JWS are saturated in delusion, when they do hear of some damaging information about the organization, they tend to make excuses and be dismissive most of time, after all this organization is so much more righteous than all other religions, they know this by what the WTS leaders told them so.

The overall control and loyalty is deeply indoctrinated to all JWS and that's why its quite difficult for people who've been deeply involved, have a hard and difficult time to leave.

 +1 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 6 hours ago

For me the start of my waking up was my disfellowshipping in April of 2015. Since I had never been DF'd before I took it pretty hard and I was really struggling with some personal non-doctrinal related issues.
I still believed it was the truth for the most part and was contemplating getting my act together and getting back in. Then I decided to do some research on the organization and see what if anything was to be found out there on the internet. I found jwfacts.com and that was where the real eye opening happened.
Three things really clinched it for me.
First of all I should say this; I am now agnostic. I pretty much believe there was a creator or a first cause to all of <this> around us. To me that seems obvious and I think even science must somewhat agree with that idea that something had to cause it. Something doesn't come from nothing. Life does not arise spontaneously. But I digress....
The three lines of reasoning for me are as follows:
1. Deut. 18:21, 22
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The JW religion has made many many false prophecies over the years. This alone was enough for me to scratch my head and say "Yep, they are not the one true religion." However I don't believe in the Bible anymore anyway so....
2. The whole 1919 "Jesus examined us and chose us out of all other professed Christians at the time because of what we believed" etc... (quotes mine) Then when you look at just what the JW org was believing at that time there is no resemblance of what they believe now. They did all kinds of un-christian pagan things back then.
3. Finally, the ARC. When G. Jackson was asked if the org taught that they were the one true spokesman for God on Earth and he bold faced lied and said "Well that would be presumptuous of us to think that...." I about fell out of my chair. For a GB member to say that......it just blew my mind because this is precisely what they believe and teach. Theocratic warfare my ass.
I'm fully awake now. I have no fear of them at all.
 
Terry
Terry 3 hours ago


 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

Good read Terry thanks

One could realistically say that the JWS religion was founded and based upon overextending speculation, hype, voyeuristic opportunism, power seeking self adulation, tainted with a bit of commercialized corruption, which was instigated through the operation of a publishing house.
Or to put it another way, an open unregulated continuous exercise in religoius charlatanism. 

 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

Terry where did your post go ?

 
ttdtt
ttdtt 2 hours ago

Let's not go beyond the things written brothers.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaa
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

I'll re-post it if that's OK

I think little Charlie Russell having been born after many miscarriages by his mother, was doted on and coddled beyond normal. His mother died of a fever epidemic when he was about 9 and he may have associated burning with fever with burning in hell.
He seemed to be obsessed about hell for awhile even to the point of graffiti on sidewalks marking scriptures as warnings.
He was privately tutored and brought into the men's clothing business and given and adult's responsibilities. Although the family was Presbyterian, there appears to be a streak of insubordination in the genes because they switched to a Congregational church with an autonomy of leadership and no organizational oversight.
Why was this a big deal, do you think?
You might suspect Charlie had a feeling of being too special to follow other people's orders. Maybe he was reared like a little Prince destined for greatness.
Charlie must have been spoiling for a debate because an atheist got ahold of him and apparently left him dazed and confused for awhile.
It is here where young Charlie probably had to choose whether he was a retail merchant by trade or man of higher principles destined by God to educate the whole earth about God's soon-to-arrive Prince of Peace.
The fact that a young man would seek such an apotheosis is astonishing unless he was a preening Narcissist. I'm no psychiatrist, but I suspect he had delusions and perhaps burgeoning megalomania.
______
Russell was living at a time of great unrest. After the War of 1812, a Baptist lay preacher named William Miller had gotten a big reputation from juggling scriptures and dates resulting in a mad dash to escape the downside of Armageddon. The prediction of `1843/1844 must have caused a thrilling sensation in all Christian folks who took such things seriously.
I speculate that young Charlie Russell saw the effect of Miller's predictions on simple church folk to the extent they began leaving their own churches and preparing themselves for Christ's coming. This was truly a Big Moment!
Despite the 'Great Disappointment,' the true believers would not admit defeat or own up to being dead wrong. A great many clever and imaginative Christians had their own unique ideas. Some printed and published those schemes along with charts and dates and all sorts of crackpot speculations.
Keep your eye on these people!
They were stubborn and impervious to reason. If you got them in your corner with just the right kind of razzle dazzle you would have a strong core of solid gold as a foundation for whatever kind of ego monument you'd care to build.
_______
Civil War had damaged Christian's Puritan ideals of a shining city on a hill. People were eager for answers and quick solution to their very human woes. If somebody could convince them of a way out of their problems--that man stood to make a fortune!
This is where Charles Taze Russell emerged as a very wily and ambitious "Seeker" as well as an investor in such ideas.
Two things launched C.T. Russell's career as a future pastor, columnist, author, lecturer and entrepreneur of a worldwide movement. He was able to AFFORD his weird hobby, dabbling, cherry-picking, and eventual invention of a theology.
What if you ran your religious ideology like a business? Not like his competitors in the marketplace of ideas who were on a shoestring--but really put some money behind the marketing and distribution?
He partnered up with men who were high-profile and got in with the crowd of movers and shakers and began competing--not as a businessman selling clothing--but as a purveyor of religious crackpot ideas exemplified with dazzling bullshit.
He hired book salesmen (colporteurs) and publicized his work in a way nobody else could afford to do. He put his money where his mouth was and got in at the right time.
Russell had just the right personality, manners, courtesy and genteel style to win over women (who were the bulk of Christianity as far as becoming followers.)
His weird arrangement with Maria Frances Eckley to have a sexless marriage formed a beneficial partnership (she was a helluva editor and writer) and a terrific "photo op" when the two of them began working the crowds both in print and in many visits to homestyle Bible Student gatherings. This was a power couple like Jim and Tammy Faye Baker in later years. The glow of success and divine light was irresistable.
_______
The selfstyled Pastor Russell believed his own bullshit up to a certain point when his personal actions and treatment of others (partners and wife) triggered an awakening.
He became shrewd, cowardly, stealthy, litigious, self-aggrandizing, and cruel.
Throwing himself into a whirlwind of predictions, prognostications, pyramid schemings and, above all, churning out a revolutionary method of Bible Study (Studies in the Scriptures) he broke down the barrier for common folk by making study Topical and lending his slant to a pseudo-revelatory tutorial about End Times.
Being half-charlatan and half-assed spellbinder, Russell spent the last years of his life juggling lawsuits, marital scandals, newspaper exposes, and the disintegration of his slapdash prophetic fulfillments which were crashing and burning right and left.
The fact that he edited out all his Wrong predictions and changed the wording in reprints, indicates a guilty state of mind and awareness of his errors.
As he aged and grew frail, he had on staff both a firebrand lawyer with gigantic ego ambitious to outgrow his humble agrarian background and an autodidact with a photographic memory who had had plans to be a theologian.
Rutherford was the lawyer and Franz was the whiz kid with the photographic memory who had an invaluable talent. He could dip into the Bible and pull out anything you wanted him to produce and make it sound like it was prophecy.



When Russell died on a train in Texas on Halloween, Rutherford and his carefully placed minions knew exactly what moves to make both legally and strategically to produce an insurgency with the goal of commandeering Russell's shell of an empire and branding it as his own.
Rutherford was the polar opposite of Russell and he damned near wrecked everything by making enemies out of allies right and left. But, with Franz by his side, a wicked legal mind, and a bellicose temperament, he blazed a scorched earth policy across the entire Bible Student movement.

Rutherford was ruthless, diabolical and hellbent on being a Big Man who could make everybody bow to his unbridled power. He published a book (The Finished Mystery) under false pretenses (Russell's 7th volume) and got himself and the other Directors of the Society prosecuted by the Federal Government for being traitors to their country in a time of war (WWI).
Luckily for Rutherford and the others, the war ended soon after and the unnecessary expense of prosecuting a religious organization's lunatic administrators who had appealed on a "Writ of Error" turned on a whim and the case was dropped. None of these men were exonerated, simply released.
Rutherford went on a holy crusade to punish everybody everywhere and he became a tyrannical monster throwing people of faith into the fire to create martyrs and publicity for his new-fangled religion with the awkward new name: Jehovah's Witnesses. What else would a Lawyer and part-time judge think of but "Witnesses"?
These first two men were larger-than-life and totally driven by inner demons. They surrounded themselves with ardent supporters and cronies who would march into the furnace for them. They built an empire off the volunteer army of true believers by keeping the carrot of heaven or paradise in front and the stick of Armageddon to create fear of ferocious destructions at the hands of an angry, vengeful God.
Every wrong step made, and each faulty explanation given--each silly prognostication and preposterous prediction, drove the weak members out and solidified the cognitive dissonance of the staunch loyalists who remained on.
We all know the rest of the story. One day we joined them and one day we left it all behind with a hole in the center of our life like a festering holocaust in our spirit.
Russell, Rutherford and each who followed, became contaminated with the same cancerous ideology of doom and fealty--an absolute belief based on nothing more than the psychotic ravings of self-centered mandarins full of themselves with ambitions to rule as kings and priests over the earth. This elite band of brothers is a festering pimple on Jehovah's ass admired by one and all.
 

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Defining What is the Truth about the Truth of the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion
by Finkelstein 9 hours ago 11 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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daringhart13
daringhart13 2 hours ago

My thoughts:
The vast majority of JW's are so uneducated.....and most of it is by CHOICE....they love ignorance. It's comfortable for them. I think a great many subconsciously know it's all a lie.....but crave a sense of belonging. Therefore, the depression that runs rampant through the 'organization.'
It is nothing more than a semi-brilliant (all religions employ this methodology) pyramid scheme. It took off during an interesting time in human history, particularly the western world. It grew mostly among disadvantaged people.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein an hour ago

The JWS organization is another example of just how dangerous it can be, to openly let people self create themselves into self empowered spiritual Seers to the almighty gods. This particular delusion of power influenced thousands of people to let themselves die by not receiving a blood transfusion, organ transplant and vaccination. 
This entailment of self expressive power and control can be become deadly and dangerous to people who let themselves mentally embrace this perception of delusion. 

 

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Topic Summary
in an endeavor to clearly define the truth about the truth of the jw religion, whats your personal perception of what you understand of how this religion came to be, in its inherit beginning and how it was able to sustain itself over the years ?
from my own perspective i think the strategic actions by its founding leaders to draw attention to their own published works such as the singular endeavors starting from c t russell and onward.
the self proposing recognition by people such as j rutherford, that god had specifically (1919) chosen " his " organization exclusively, is really where and when this assuming man made power began and continued to flourish.. but the real significant thing that created attention to the public's eyes and imagination was when both russell and rutherford proclaimed that christ had returned and he had started to divide and choose who was going to be saved from destruction and live on in a earthly paradise and who was to be killed at the soon to come day of judgement.



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My New Thoughts on Adam and Eve (don't laugh)
by xjwsrock 7 hours ago 12 Replies latest 24 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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xjwsrock
xjwsrock 7 hours ago

Warning for those that are still believers... This train of thought will not be faith strengthening...
I have come a long way since first stumbling on crumbs of TTATT in 2012. (I have not come nearly as far with the wife unfortunately, but such is life.) My critical thinking ability, thankfully, is in another stratosphere since figuring out I was a JW lab rat. A lot of thanks goes to this forum for that. People like Cofty, Terry, Oubliette, etc deserve mention.
So here goes.... I was thinking about Adam and Eve the other day at a meeting. It was a few weeks back. We were studying the 12/15/15 Study Edition WT - Article was entitled Jehovah, the God of Communication. The point was brought out (par. 4) that Jehovah communicated with Adam with human language.
(When I hear something now in a meeting that resembles a new thought, it stands out like a light in a dark room.)
That one point - that God spoke to Adam with human language - caused me to realize something I had never thought about before concerning the Genesis account. Adam and Eve were not normal humans. They were "born" adults. These two persons never had the experience of being children, or having human parents, or learning how to speak or walk or anything else like normal people do.
If God spoke to Adam with Human language, how did Adam learn that language?
Whatever answer you dream up to the above question, he didn't learn language like the average person does. He would have had to have been pre-programmed with language or have experienced some odd man-child situation where God raised a full-grown Adam like a baby - feeding him, helping him learn to walk, helping him learn to speak, etc. Then as the story continues....Whatever happened with Adam would naturally have had to be repeated with Eve.
So.....regardless of how you try to explain Adam and Eve's jump to adulthood without the experience of childhood, you have to admit these two persons are hardly examples of the basic human experience. They are human prototypes. They are starter experiments. Adam and Eve never had human parents, grandparents, extended family, or any sort of community. Heck, they never even had the chance to talk with another person of their same gender.
My point... Adam and Eve couldn't possibly be considered representative of the human race or be expected to be emotionally and/or psychologically developed, stable, or mature... or "normal" by any common measure.
So why on earth would God hold all of mankind accountable for the actions of these odd human prototypes?
P.S. The reason I said "Don't Laugh" in the Title is because these are all brand new thoughts for me
What do you think?...
 +3 / -0
sowhatnow
sowhatnow 5 hours ago

short answer,
its a pretty chopped up story by ancient people trying to explain how we got here and why things went so 'wrong'
my guess
they were among some aliens that were dropped off or crash landed here. so were aliens, we dont belong here and we've ruined so much of the earth.

long answer.
Adam was made in gods image. so as an 'adult' he was like all the other angelic spirit creatures that were created by jesus.[1 colossians 1 16]

[yes, by jesus, since the bible says all things were made through him and by him. he was the first of all creation. so he had to be here before anything else.]
he had to have known[been pre- programed] everything adult as to survive on a new planet he knew nothing about.
Adam and eve had not been along in the garden. they often heard god walking about. and there must have been others among them,
why i think Adam and eve were not alone, and had children in the garden. [why put man in a garden like a prisoner?]

ask yourself,
how did Eve know what it would be like to have increased birth pains, is she never experienced any in the first place?
how would they know what death was if they never saw it to fear it?
why would they fear death unless they has experienced something dying.
how did they know what bad was if there was no bad created ?
lol god had to have created bad to have it to be done.

I could never get past genesis. two separate stories , lots of weird questions.
really doesn't matter to us , wont change a darn thing for anyone.

 +2 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 5 hours ago

Good thoughts in the original Akkadian story's the creator god with the help of a female god made man and thier attempts were not good at first. They were unable to standup straight, walk, etc. So your thoughts are much closer to what the originators of the story of Adam and Eve were thinking.
 +1 / -0
RubaDub
RubaDub 5 hours ago

xjwsrock ...
As you instructed, I did not laugh while reading this.
But as the same time, towards the end, I did evacuate into my shorts.
Rub a Dub
 +1 / -0
AnneB
AnneB 5 hours ago
And what proof or scripture(s) does WT have that God communicated with Adam in human language?

 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 5 hours ago
Lol. I didn't laugh til just read some of the responses. Things that have not come to mind for years came back. There is something to be said for thinking beyond what is said to what is unsaid. Thanks.
 
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 5 hours ago

Jehovah communicated with Adam with human language.
Instead of what? Dog language? This is their new truth? Worth waiting for! This is what happens when people are not allowed to read anything or talk about anything. They have nothing to discuss. So much knowledge available and this is their pathetic offering.
 +1 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 2 hours ago

Xanthippe - Dog language... LOL.....love that.
I know ... there are problems all over the place. Bunch of uneducated people sitting around nodding their heads. Pitiful...
AnneB - no proof of course... they always add to the story. They add more than was there to begin with. lol
JWdaughter - Amen sister
Crazyguy - I will have to look up the Akkadian story. Thanks for the reference.
 
scary21
scary21 2 hours ago
Love the way you think !

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 2 hours ago

What ever the language God spoke to Adam he sure did learn fast, he named all the animals and
that must have taken a long time. Hell he named animals he had never seen.
 

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My New Thoughts on Adam and Eve (don't laugh)
by xjwsrock 7 hours ago 12 Replies latest 25 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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daringhart13
daringhart13 an hour ago
Did Adam have a belly button?
 
atomant
atomant an hour ago
l think the reason they were placed in a garden with fences was to keep the preadamics out.Maybe this is where adam and eve came from but god transformed the couple into a new improved version of a human.l assume there were fences because god put angels at the gates once they got kicked out again to stop whoever from getting back in.The garden of eden was an experiment gone wrong and remember that adam and eve were set up to fail from the very beginning.As has been previously pointed out in this thread how on earth could adam and eve have possibly made a fully informed decision based on their knowledge.lm beginning to think the earth was seeded by an advanced race.Think about mankinds recent advancements over the past century.Now think what mankind might learn over the next 1 million years if they dont destroy themselves.An advanced race of beings would easily be able to transform an uninhabitable planet into a habitable planet.Just my thoughts of thinking out of the box.

 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 25 minutes ago

Well, obviously, you're thinking way too much. In order to have faith, you must abandon logic, reason, truth, and intellectual honesty. If you do not, you get into trouble. Once you know a thing, you can't unknow it. Like how the human genome project shows we originated in Africa, not the Middle East.
If one is to believe that the Adam and Eve story is literal truth, then what follows, logically, is that the entire human race is a product of incestuous relationships. Logic raises far more questions than the Bible or Christians have made up answers for.

 

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Topic Summary
warning for those that are still believers... this train of thought will not be faith strengthening.... i have come a long way since first stumbling on crumbs of ttatt in 2012.
(i have not come nearly as far with the wife unfortunately, but such is life.
) my critical thinking ability, thankfully, is in another stratosphere since figuring out i was a jw lab rat.



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Online Article About JW life from Ex-JW
by TheOutSpoken1 7 hours ago 2 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower child-abuse
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TheOutSpoken1
TheOutSpoken1 7 hours ago

Each of us have experienced the aftermath of being a JW. We can all relate. My heart hurts for this child and what she went thru. Story listed below.
article is listed on yahoo home page via xojane by author Esperanza Hopewell
 IT HAPPENED TO ME: My Mom Dumped Me in Foster Care When I Renounced Her Religion
Mom found an exceptionally nice friend at the Kingdom Hall. Fran babysat my low-functioning autistic sister and me for almost nothing a week so that my single mother could try to wean our family off of welfare by training to be a medical assistant at one of those colleges advertised on TV. Fran continued watching us after Mom graduated and got a job as a medical-records clerk when she couldn't get hired as a medical assistant.



Fran not only opened her home to us, she made us feel like family. Her nine-year-old daughter, Michelle, was a year older than I was, and Tony, her son, was about 15. Tony was the textbook definition of geek. He was technologically savvy, socially awkward, well-read, and an "A" student. I thought he knew everything. He genuinely listened to me and made us laugh with his silly voices. I dearly wished I could trade siblings with Michelle.
Michelle and I learned cooking, table manners, gardening and dishwashing from Fran, made mud pies and built "amusement parks" with hay bales and lumber scraps out in the big back yard full of play houses and fruit trees. Fran's house was like Eden.
But every Eden has a snake, and this one's snake was Fran's husband, Gus.
Gus would sit me on his lap while the family watched TV after dinner, and since he was like a surrogate father, I thought nothing of it. His hands would casually roam all over my rib cage when the room would happen to be empty, but I was too young to understand the significance. He used to ask me to help him make coffee in the kitchen and hug and kiss me as it brewed, sometimes with his tongue. I just assumed that this was the different way this family did kisses. He used to kiss me out by the fruit trees, back in the garage, wherever he found me alone. It's only in hindsight that I realize we were always alone when these things happened.
But when he tried to unzip my pants, I knew that was wrong. I told my mom, and she told Fran.
Fran's eyes widened as though she had sat on a tack. She leapt up and confronted Gus immediately out on their screened-in back porch with my mother and myself in tow. He denied it, and they believed him. They all then scolded me for lying about such an upstanding member of the congregation. He was a high-ranking Elder after all.
My grades plummeted, and it didn't help that my teacher was male. If it hadn't been for good standardized test scores, I would have had to repeat fifth grade. That year was marked by an isolated and idiopathic asthma attack, mysterious aches and pains, shoplifting, encopresis, and a bout of pyromania that landed me on probation at the ripe old age of 10.
Fran finally couldn't tolerate my destructive behaviors, so we got a new babysitter.
We changed babysitters a lot over the next few years, and I was pretty much a total asshole to each and every one of them. Sometimes I cringe when I remember how mean I was to this one very nice kid's hamster, giving it a bath in water after the boy had explained that hamsters must bathe in sawdust because, if they get wet, they will catch pneumonia and die. We changed babysitters before I learned the hamster's fate.
Mom finally gave up when I was in middle school and I became a latchkey kid. I started hanging out with our neighbors, who honestly felt more like a family to me than those in my own home ever had. Seventeen-year-old Jeanette brushed and styled my hair like a sister would, she got me a weekends-only job as a busgirl at the restaurant where she worked, taught me to apply makeup (Mom said I looked like a "damn Mexican"), to inhale when smoking (the first hit of Marlboro Red I actually inhaled gave one great buzz), and how to "play it off" when drunk or high. Her brother, Juan, made me feel safe. Maria, their mother, tried to help me see my mother's side and encouraged me to "meet her halfway." The concept was foreign.
Although I feigned illness as often as I could, I still had to go with Mom to her meetings at least three times a week. Throughout each of the two-hour meetings preached by unpaid Brothers (most of ours were auto mechanics by day), I continually pestered my long-suffering mother for paper, a pencil, her watch, her necklace, a mint, permission to get a drink, permission to go to the bathroom, aspirin, nail clippers, a Band-aid. Sometimes, I amused myself by using a shiny surface to angle light into the speaker's eyes.
From birth, Witness children are expected to remain quiet and attentive at their parents' sides; toys or crayons are denounced from the stage. To be properly trained, children of all ages must pay attention for the full two hours. After I turned 10, as Mom was getting dressed for meetings, I would occasionally down a full tumbler from the gallon jug of Gallo she always kept on the floor under the kitchen window, and that really helped me appear to be quiet and attentive. The filthy looks decreased. Or maybe I just stopped noticing.
At the age of 13, I flat-out refused to attend another meeting. The Elders, my mother informed me, announced from the stage that I was a "bad association," which, in Jehovah's Witness speak, pretty much meant excommunication. I celebrated.
One Friday not long after that, I got home from school to find my mother on the phone. It was Linda from County Services. She wanted to talk to me. She said that Mom and I needed a three-day "time-out," so she had arranged for me to stay at the Children's Shelter. She made it sound like summer camp, and hey, a Monday off school. So I packed clothes, makeup, cigarettes, a stuffed animal, and my yellow AM/FM headphones. Eddie Money's "Give Me Some Water" was playing loudly in my ears as Mom signed papers with a uniformed officer at the intake cubicle. He seemed appalled at the way I talked to my mother. I had no idea what he found so offensive.
They put my personal belongings in a storage box, issued me a new set of clothes, and showed me to the Senior Girls unit, a big white dorm with 25 or so army-style bunk beds. The girls asked how long I was there for.
"Three days," I replied.
One of the twins there laughed. "That's what they tell everybody. We've been here six months." But I knew Mom was coming back for me Monday evening.
After a few weeks, Jeanette came to visit me at the shelter. Over pizza from our favorite little hole-in-the-wall place near home, she mentioned that she had paid Juan to slash Mom's tires. I was all, "Orale! She had it coming." No one had ever gotten revenge for me before; I didn't know what else to say.
By day, I was so overjoyed to be free that I habitually skipped through the unit, propelling myself up and forward by grabbing the foot rails of the top bunks. I silently cried myself to sleep at night.
My mother never came back to the shelter, and she moved to an undisclosed location, telling the social workers that under no circumstances was I to have her contact information.
After three months, I got placement in a group home instead of a foster home at my own request. Babysitters had taught me that I didn't want to compete with someone's own kids for resources, affection and attention. In a group home, everyone at least starts out on equal footing.
My new home was on the other side of the county, which made calling me a toll call for Jeanette. This, combined with my lack of money for the payphone, made communicating inconvenient, so that wonderful, liberating, empowering friendship just kind of died. The foster care system purposely places troubled teens well outside of their home neighborhoods specifically to separate them from their thug "homies." It worked; Jeanette didn't contact me when they moved.
I attended continuation school with all of the other group-home girls. It was full of stoners and head-bangers and had a smoking area large enough for the entire student body. Thankfully, the home provided each resident two packs of cigarettes per week, and our weekly allowance covered four more packs, so we weren't excluded from that important social opportunity. Grading emphasized "time on task" over performance, so long as you showed up and seemed to be at least trying to complete the assignment, you were golden. But I recognized that my teachers truly cared, and so I flourished. My classmates hated me for being a teacher's pet, but the faculty's esteem sustained me.
As my grades improved over the course of five years, so did my mother's opinion of me. She was also swayed by the fact that Gus had molested another little girl.
During the first year or two of my placement, Mom called occasionally and begged me to take back what I'd said about Gus. She tried to convince me that I must not have understood, that he was merely trying to fix my zipper because it looked broken... or it was my fault for sitting on his lap... or I was a good girl and would never have allowed him to kiss me like that. This time, she called expressly to inform me that she believed me now that he had done it again.
To finally be believed was exhilarating, for an instant. But it was a half-assed victory; it didn't actually change anything. Nothing happened to Gus. I was still "in placement." I still had to befriend one counselor or another hoping she'd invite me to stay overnight at her home when the facility closed down at major holidays while the other girls went home to their families. That someone else had had to suffer before Mom would believe me confirmed that my own mother has never, ever had my back; that to her, everything the Brothers did was good; everything they said was the truth, and if anything contradicted them, that thing was evil. Because they said so.
I was still volcanically angry, but she was extending an olive branch. Damaged and misguided as she was, in her heart she honestly was trying to be as good a mother as she knew how without breaking her religion. We'd had a few good memories after all, and who doesn't want her mother's approval? I guardedly accepted her guarded acceptance of me. When I was 17, she began occasionally inviting me to her new apartment.
It was right around the corner from her old one.
 +3 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 7 hours ago
Thanks for sharing outSpoken1......... It makes one think about those 'inconvenient' JW children who at an early age want no part in the foolish beliefs. Or are forced to act out when abused.
 +1 / -0
Pistoff
Pistoff 4 hours ago
A great read, thanks.

 

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How much of the Society's publications just get stored away in the garage?
by donny 3 hours ago 5 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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donny
donny 3 hours ago

Almost a year ago I moved back to the Dallas - Fort Worth area after spending 16 years in the Northern California area. The area I live in has several nearby parks and walkways and these areas have several "Share a book" pods mounted on a pole spaced about 1/2 mile from one another. People are encouraged to add books they no longer use to these pods and to take one if they are interested.
I have been diligent on removing Watchtower publications from them and what has surprised me is how many old publications in pristine condition are added almost on a daily basis. Brand new looking copies of "True Peace and Security - From What Source?" (1973) "Is This Life All There Is?" (1974), "The Truth That Leads to Everlasting Life" (1981) appear in the pods almost as fast as I can remove them.
That makes me wonder how much of the Society's publications are still sitting in people's hoarding areas and have yet to see the light? This is not the only time I have seen this phenomenon so it must mean a lot of that crap fortunatley never made it to its intended victims.
 +4 / -0
baker
baker 3 hours ago

We got some new light out of them, when we put some in the fireplace
 +4 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 hours ago

I imagine most of the literature placed at the door never gets read. Either they were just taking it to be nice or because it was free or they were interested until the started reading and realized it was written at a third grade level. And that's the books that actually get placed. How much of the literature never makes it that far?
It's sad the waste of money spend generating books and magazine that just end up getting tossed. Good job on taking it out of the pods.
 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 2 hours ago

At one time it was really a big deal to collect a large theocratic library.
Before the bound volumes, people were encouraged to keep copies of every Watchtower and Awake and then they could buy binders for them at the end of the year.
Then the bound volumes came out, sometimes with secretly revised information, and people bought everything all over again. Even as a child, I thought this was stupid and could see blind profiteering as the reason behind it.
Eventually when the WT discovered that people were using their old literature against them, it was encouraged not to be reading old literature that was old light.
But many older JWs still have massive amounts of old literature. When they died, their family members are stuck getting rid of it all.
Maybe putting them in the library pods is an option some are taking, especially if they are conflicted about the value of the books.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 hours ago

Best Guess..
95-97% of all WBT$ Literature is Stored in Private JW Homes..
Never to be Seen by the Outside World..

Nobody wants that Crap..
.

.....................Image result for no jehovah witnesses
 
Listener
Listener an hour ago
Keep up the good wo k of removing those books Donny.
When did they stop providing the bound volumes?
 +1 / -0

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The saga of Russell and Rutherford
by Terry 3 hours ago 4 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Terry
Terry 3 hours ago

I think little Charlie Russell having been born after many miscarriages by his mother, was doted on and coddled beyond normal. His mother died of a fever epidemic when he was about 9 and he may have associated burning with fever with burning in hell.
He seemed to be obsessed about hell for awhile even to the point of graffiti on sidewalks marking scriptures as warnings.
He was privately tutored and brought into the men's clothing business and given and adult's responsibilities. Although the family was Presbyterian, there appears to be a streak of insubordination in the genes because they switched to a Congregational church with an autonomy of leadership and no organizational oversight.
Why was this a big deal, do you think?
You might suspect Charlie had a feeling of being too special to follow other people's orders. Maybe he was reared like a little Prince destined for greatness.
Charlie must have been spoiling for a debate because an atheist got ahold of him and apparently left him dazed and confused for awhile.
It is here where young Charlie probably had to choose whether he was a retail merchant by trade or man of higher principles destined by God to educate the whole earth about God's soon-to-arrive Prince of Peace.
The fact that a young man would seek such an apotheosis is astonishing unless he was a preening Narcissist. I'm no psychiatrist, but I suspect he had delusions and perhaps burgeoning megalomania.
______
Russell was living at a time of great unrest. After the War of 1812, a Baptist lay preacher named William Miller had gotten a big reputation from juggling scriptures and dates resulting in a mad dash to escape the downside of Armageddon. The prediction of `1843/1844 must have caused a thrilling sensation in all Christian folks who took such things seriously.
I speculate that young Charlie Russell saw the effect of Miller's predictions on simple church folk to the extent they began leaving their own churches and preparing themselves for Christ's coming. This was truly a Big Moment!
Despite the 'Great Disappointment,' the true believers would not admit defeat or own up to being dead wrong. A great many clever and imaginative Christians had their own unique ideas. Some printed and published those schemes along with charts and dates and all sorts of crackpot speculations.
Keep your eye on these people!
They were stubborn and impervious to reason. If you got them in your corner with just the right kind of razzle dazzle you would have a strong core of solid gold as a foundation for whatever kind of ego monument you'd care to build.
_______
Civil War had damaged Christian's Puritan ideals of a shining city on a hill. People were eager for answers and quick solution to their very human woes. If somebody could convince them of a way out of their problems--that man stood to make a fortune!
This is where Charles Taze Russell emerged as a very wily and ambitious "Seeker" as well as an investor in such ideas.
Two things launched C.T. Russell's career as a future pastor, columnist, author, lecturer and entrepreneur of a worldwide movement. He was able to AFFORD his weird hobby, dabbling, cherry-picking, and eventual invention of a theology.
What if you ran your religious ideology like a business? Not like his competitors in the marketplace of ideas who were on a shoestring--but really put some money behind the marketing and distribution?
He partnered up with men who were high-profile and got in with the crowd of movers and shakers and began competing--not as a businessman selling clothing--but as a purveyor of religious crackpot ideas exemplified with dazzling bullshit.
He hired book salesmen (colporteurs) and publicized his work in a way nobody else could afford to do. He put his money where his mouth was and got in at the right time.
Russell had just the right personality, manners, courtesy and genteel style to win over women (who were the bulk of Christianity as far as becoming followers.)
His weird arrangement with Maria Frances Eckley to have a sexless marriage formed a beneficial partnership (she was a helluva editor and writer) and a terrific "photo op" when the two of them began working the crowds both in print and in many visits to homestyle Bible Student gatherings. This was a power couple like Jim and Tammy Faye Baker in later years. The glow of success and divine light was irresistable.
_______
The selfstyled Pastor Russell believed his own bullshit up to a certain point when his personal actions and treatment of others (partners and wife) triggered an awakening.
He became shrewd, cowardly, stealthy, litigious, self-aggrandizing, and cruel.
Throwing himself into a whirlwind of predictions, prognostications, pyramid schemings and, above all, churning out a revolutionary method of Bible Study (Studies in the Scriptures) he broke down the barrier for common folk by making study Topical and lending his slant to a pseudo-revelatory tutorial about End Times.
Being half-charlatan and half-assed spellbinder, Russell spent the last years of his life juggling lawsuits, marital scandals, newspaper exposes, and the disintegration of his slapdash prophetic fulfillments which were crashing and burning right and left.
The fact that he edited out all his Wrong predictions and changed the wording in reprints, indicates a guilty state of mind and awareness of his errors.
As he aged and grew frail, he had on staff both a firebrand lawyer with gigantic ego ambitious to outgrow his humble agrarian background and an autodidact with a photographic memory who had had plans to be a theologian.
Rutherford was the lawyer and Franz was the whiz kid with the photographic memory who had an invaluable talent. He could dip into the Bible and pull out anything you wanted him to produce and make it sound like it was prophecy.



When Russell died on a train in Texas on Halloween, Rutherford and his carefully placed minions knew exactly what moves to make both legally and strategically to produce an insurgency with the goal of commandeering Russell's shell of an empire and branding it as his own.
Rutherford was the polar opposite of Russell and he damned near wrecked everything by making enemies out of allies right and left. But, with Franz by his side, a wicked legal mind, and a bellicose temperament, he blazed a scorched earth policy across the entire Bible Student movement.

Rutherford was ruthless, diabolical and hellbent on being a Big Man who could make everybody bow to his unbridled power. He published a book (The Finished Mystery) under false pretenses (Russell's 7th volume) and got himself and the other Directors of the Society prosecuted by the Federal Government for being traitors to their country in a time of war (WWI).
Luckily for Rutherford and the others, the war ended soon after and the unnecessary expense of prosecuting a religious organization's lunatic administrators who had appealed on a "Writ of Error" turned on a whim and the case was dropped. None of these men were exonerated, simply released.
Rutherford went on a holy crusade to punish everybody everywhere and he became a tyrannical monster throwing people of faith into the fire to create martyrs and publicity for his new-fangled religion with the awkward new name: Jehovah's Witnesses. What else would a Lawyer and part-time judge think of but "Witnesses"?
These first two men were larger-than-life and totally driven by inner demons. They surrounded themselves with ardent supporters and cronies who would march into the furnace for them. They built an empire off the volunteer army of true believers by keeping the carrot of heaven or paradise in front and the stick of Armageddon to create fear of ferocious destructions at the hands of an angry, vengeful God.
Every wrong step made, and each faulty explanation given--each silly prognostication and preposterous prediction, drove the weak members out and solidified the cognitive dissonance of the staunch loyalists who remained on.
We all know the rest of the story. One day we joined them and one day we left it all behind with a hole in the center of our life like a festering holocaust in our spirit.
Russell, Rutherford and each who followed, became contaminated with the same cancerous ideology of doom and fealty--an absolute belief based on nothing more than the psychotic ravings of self-centered mandarins full of themselves with ambitions to rule as kings and priests over the earth. This elite band of brothers is a festering pimple on Jehovah's ass admired by one and all.
 +6 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 hours ago
Marking
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

In reality the JWS are just witnesses to the commercialization of the Watchtower Corporation, a fictional religious publishing house.

 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 2 hours ago
Never thought of the connection of a lawyer using the name "Jehovah's Witnesses."
 
scary21
scary21 2 hours ago

WOW, just wow Terry, that was so well written. A must read. I will be printing this out to share.
Thanks, Sherry

 

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Terry
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The saga of Russell and Rutherford
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 hours ago
i think little charlie russell having been born after many miscarriages by his mother, was doted on and coddled beyond normal.

his mother died of a fever epidemic when he was about 9 and he may have associated burning with fever with burning in hell.he seemed to be obsessed about hell for awhile even to the point of graffiti on sidewalks marking scriptures as warnings.he was privately tutored and brought into the men's clothing business and given and adult's responsibilities.

although the family was presbyterian, there appears to be a streak of insubordination in the genes because they switched to a congregational church with an autonomy of leadership and no organizational oversight.why was this a big deal, do you think?

Finkelstein
GrreatTeacher
scary21
2 hours ago
donny
4
How much of the Society's publications just get stored away in the garage?
by donny in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 hours ago
almost a year ago i moved back to the dallas - fort worth area after spending 16 years in the northern california area.

the area i live in has several nearby parks and walkways and these areas have several "share a book" pods mounted on a pole spaced about 1/2 mile from one another.

people are encouraged to add books they no longer use to these pods and to take one if they are interested.. i have been diligent on removing watchtower publications from them and what has surprised me is how many old publications in pristine condition are added almost on a daily basis.

LisaRose
GrreatTeacher
OUTLAW
2 hours ago
Dystopia
15
Why all the hate...
by Dystopia in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 hours ago
...toward jehovah's witnesses?

brandnew
Finkelstein
sparky1
an hour ago
Earnest
8
Walking Fish - evolution or adaptation?
by Earnest in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 hours ago
a recent article in nature reports on a fish that has a pelvic girdle with features associated with terrestrial vertebrates.. discuss..

cofty
cofty
Mephis
2 hours ago
xjwsrock
11
My New Thoughts on Adam and Eve (don't laugh)
by xjwsrock in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 7 hours ago
warning for those that are still believers... this train of thought will not be faith strengthening.... i have come a long way since first stumbling on crumbs of ttatt in 2012.

(i have not come nearly as far with the wife unfortunately, but such is life.

) my critical thinking ability, thankfully, is in another stratosphere since figuring out i was a jw lab rat.

James Mixon
daringhart13
atomant
2 hours ago
TheOutSpoken1
2
Online Article About JW life from Ex-JW
by TheOutSpoken1 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 8 hours ago
each of us have experienced the aftermath of being a jw.

we can all relate.

my heart hurts for this child and what she went thru.

Giordano
Pistoff
5 hours ago
cofty
39
JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

Simon
DogGone
GrreatTeacher
an hour ago
Finkelstein
11
Defining What is the Truth about the Truth of the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion
by Finkelstein in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
in an endeavor to clearly define the truth about the truth of the jw religion, whats your personal perception of what you understand of how this religion came to be, in its inherit beginning and how it was able to sustain itself over the years ?

from my own perspective i think the strategic actions by its founding leaders to draw attention to their own published works such as the singular endeavors starting from c t russell and onward.

the self proposing recognition by people such as j rutherford, that god had specifically (1919) chosen " his " organization exclusively, is really where and when this assuming man made power began and continued to flourish.. but the real significant thing that created attention to the public's eyes and imagination was when both russell and rutherford proclaimed that christ had returned and he had started to divide and choose who was going to be saved from destruction and live on in a earthly paradise and who was to be killed at the soon to come day of judgement.

Finkelstein
daringhart13
Finkelstein
2 hours ago
FinchAndWeston
14
Is it true: the memorial will stop after the last anointed have passed away?
by FinchAndWeston in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
i heard that the memorial will stop after the last anointed have passed away ... is this information true/false?

just curious.

it's secondhand.

elderINewton
prologos
Calebs Airplane
5 hours ago
StarTrekAngel
Attended memorial last night
by StarTrekAngel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 10 hours ago
so since i have not been to any meetings in like 2 months because of health issues, i had to decide what to do about the memorial.

my health has improved quite a bit and i feel much better than i did 2 months ago.

i could still have used the "not feeling well" card and stay home.


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