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Where's Awake! No.3?
by Ultimate Axiom 11 days ago 16 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Ultimate Axiom
Ultimate Axiom 11 days ago
It's nearly March and Awake! No.3 has still not appeared on JW.org. Has it come out in paper form, or has something gone wrong?

 +1 / -0
wannaexit
wannaexit 11 days ago
Usually the stuff comes out months in advance. It appears they do things things on the fly.

 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 11 days ago
It should be online within the next few weeks.

wannaexit
wannaexit 11 days ago

wait a sec... the awake comes out in April. The pattern is :
Jan, Watchtower.
Feb. Awake.
March Watchtower,
April Awake
May Watchtower
Etc

 +1 / -0
Stirred
Stirred 11 days ago
Yes, some time ago that was announced that they would no longer be monthly.

neat blue dog
neat blue dog 11 days ago
Therefore, #3 Awake! is due shortly before June 2016.

Listener
Listener 11 days ago
The Awake is now once every two months, the same with the public Watchtower. So far there has been
Jan 2016 no 1 public Watchtower
Feb. No 1 awake
March. No 2 pub!ic watchtower
Apr. No 2 awake
May. No 3 public Watchtower
The June study edition was just put online, Awake No. 3 will follow shortly.

eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 11 days ago

If she's a month late, maybe she's pregnant? The long awaited birth of the Awaketower which will contain fascinating accounts of how today's animals and plants are actually fulfilling "ancient bible prophecy".
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +11 / -0
Ultimate Axiom
Ultimate Axiom 11 days ago

Sorry guys, I obviously missed all this when they announced they were numbering them rather than putting a date on them. So their public announcing tools have gone from bi-weekly to bi-monthly, and from 32 pages to 16, that’s a drop from 128 pages a month to just 16 – nearly 90%. And when you consider the lack of substance to these magazines these days, this shrinkage is probably over 90%. Nat and Freddie must be turning in their graves.
If this were just down to cost, they could still produce 32 page bi-monthly magazines on line, with slimmed down hard copies once a month for their trolleys. Perhaps they just can’t think of anything to say. Or maybe the end really is just around the corner and they’re just winding down the witness work.
 +7 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 11 days ago

''Or maybe the end really is just around the corner and they’re just winding down the witness work.''
I've heard that too.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 11 days ago

So instead of ramping up the life saving activity "as the day draws nearer", they are reducing the effort in "spreading the good news"!!!???
 +2 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 11 days ago
Actually, in a way by having householders directed to JW.org and the broadcasts, instead of 'magazines talking', by being directed to JW.org with that Q.R. code gives a more awe-inspiring method. Not only for the WT's, but in an attempt to reach householders. Actually JW's are more in an awe-inspired frenzy than ever.

pepperheart
pepperheart 10 days ago
Its just money they are trying to save if the end is near you dont kick people out of bethel to get jobs you keep them in bethel and they go on the trolleys and door to door for 50 or 60 hours a week


Ultimate Axiom
Ultimate Axiom 10 days ago

"Its just money they are trying to save"
I understand that pepperheart, as far as hard copies are concerned. But it doesn't cost anything to produce on-line magazines, at least, not much when the labour is virtually free. There is an up side to this for the average dub, they don't have to spend countless hours reading all that mind-numbing stuff the old 32-page bi-mothly magazines used to contain. I remember it being a real trial keeping up with the magazines when I was in, back in the 70s. No sooner had you managed to wade through one pair, when other pair would appear. Of course that was in the days when we used to sell the stuff, so naturally they would produce them by the lorry load.


Ultimate Axiom
Ultimate Axiom 10 days ago
I meant "32 page bi-weekly" in the previous post. Although I am English, and in my 60s, I still live in hope that one day I'll be able to write the blooming language properly!


Skedaddle
Skedaddle 10 days ago

I'm waiting for JW.org to start allowing advertising on their website. They must be crying looking at the amount of revenue they could be making from a regular membership of millions. I wonder how they'll spin it...
You know it's only a matter of time now!
 +2 / -0
Simon
Simon 10 days ago
So Awake is going to sleep?
 +2 / -0

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"New light"?
by winstonchurchill 12 days ago 30 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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winstonchurchill
winstonchurchill 12 days ago

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-june-2016/man-with-inkhorn/
So I guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".
As a matter of fact, that key aspect of the 'old light' is not even acknowledged in this article.
They are just publishing new understanding without even bothering to explain the full extent of the change, hoping nobody will remember how it was... and they may be right about that.
 +11 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 12 days ago
They're back to talking about a modern-day fulfillment to a prophecy when none is indicated in the scriptures. I thought they specifically said that they were done with that when they condemned type/antitype interpretation. Could it really be that they might say one thing but do another when it's convenient? Shocking.
 +11 / -1
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 12 days ago

What do people need to do to be symbolically marked for survival? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is taking place, put on the Christian personality, dedicate themselves to Jehovah, and loyally support Christ’s brothers. (Matt. 25:35-40)
There is nothing left to interpretation here... If you are not a baptized JW, you will be destroyed. With that paragraph in mind, Jesus' selection, or separating of the goats and sheeps will be WITHIN the JWs since those who are not baptized don't stand a chance.
I need to bookmark this crap so that if I am ever brought to a JC, I will be able to quote it.
 +9 / -0
menrov
menrov 12 days ago

Strange, I thought the WBTS would no longer apply the type-antitype views. I must have been wrong :smile:
It is a very strange comparison. The people to be marked were not living during a tribulation. It was jut a time of great abominations. False worshipping by Israel, His chosen people. The ones marked are groaning and moaning. This has nothing to do with being judged,
Well, what can one expect from those that form the gb of the WBTS.......



 +2 / -0
nmthinker
nmthinker 12 days ago

@StephaneLaliberte - exactly!
I did a quick writeup of the new Sheep and goats understanding. My conclusion was that they are intentionally excluding all non-JW's from possibly being sheep, since the sheep need to support "Christ's brothers" AKA the annointed - AKA the governing body. Not everyone agrees with me but here is my writeup anyways.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5085516542246912/sheep-goats-light-gets-brighter

 +2 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 12 days ago

So basically everyone where JWs don't even scratch the surface are screwed. Or the end is a long, long way away, assuming they are going to "preach" to these areas someday....
From JWFacts:
Being a Witness is predominantly contingent on where one is born and billions of people will never hear of the name Jehovah or Jesus. Living within the following countries - Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, India, Mali, Nepal, Niger, Pakistan, Thailand and Turkey are around 3 billion people, nearly half the global population. Yet the 2006 Watchtower Service Report showed that combined these have less than 40,000 Witnesses, not even 1 for every 70,000 people. These countries represent many religious (Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist and Hindu) and ethnic (African, Indian, Asian and European) backgrounds, showing that no particular group is genetically disposed to be "goat-like". In Pakistan and Bangladesh virtually all will be destroyed, the ratio of Witnesses to 'worldly people' is less than 1:1,000,000. In 2006, there was not a single Witness in Afghanistan. Is it fair for people who have never even heard of Jehovah to be destroyed at Armageddon?

 +3 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 12 days ago

Thanks mmThinker, I had not seen that post back when you brought it up. Very interesting.
This is not a small difference in teaching. I see this as a big deal. Yet, I am willing to bet that most JWs barely notice it.
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 12 days ago

It's a familiar theme: Be a JW or die.
Jesus said that anyone who was not against him was for him. The WTBTS openly disagrees with that statement by:
1) Openly saying that Jesus did not mean what he said. ( Remember, these are the same guys who brought you the "Trumpet blasts" dogma.)
2) Declaring that survival depends upon being a dedicated, baptized JW.
None of it makes sense and it contradicts the Bible and the WTBTS FAQ section about non-JWs/judgement. What do you expect...
IT'S A CULT!!!!
DD
 +8 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 12 days ago

MM, you're theory makes sense if the WTBTS expects "persecution" to reduce them to a core of zealots. Why else would they paint the picture of all non-JWs being marked for death?
What happened to only the truly wicked being destroyed? Are all non-JWs truly wicked?
This is the case of the blind leading the blind.
LET'S REVIEW: .......
DD
 +4 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 12 days ago

I thought they specifically said that they were done with that when they condemned type/antitype interpretation
If you noticed they said that - but have continued on that line without stopping.
 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 12 days ago
This will be another 'epic' WT the JW's will use to strengthen their resolve and be tougher on 'fence sitters', let the guilting and fear-mongering get stronger.
 +3 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 12 days ago

It looks like the Ezekiel/Jeremiah/Isaiah "class" is now referring to the Governing Body alone.
"During the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, Ezekiel served as a watchman along with Jeremiah, just as Isaiah had previously done. Today, Jehovah is using a small group of his anointed servants to feed his people and warn others before the outbreak of the great tribulation. In turn, all of Christ’s domestics have a share in sounding the warning."
 +1 / -0
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 12 days ago

So I guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".
Baptism alone never was "the mark" , in my experience .
"Survival Into A New Earth" pp 96-97 (1984)


No one will put a literal ink mark on their forehead. But when they have the symbolic mark it will be obvious to all that, as dedicated, baptized Christians, they have put on the “new personality” described at Ephesians 4:24. They have a living faith. Publicly and privately they endeavor to do what will honor Jehovah. Not only persons who have come out of Christendom but all, regardless of background, who hope to survive into the “new earth” as associates of the anointed class must have this mark.
It was always the ongoing J W faith, not baptism alone This mag today says
"In Ezekiel’s day, no one received a literal mark on his forehead. The same is true today. What do people need to do to be symbolically marked for survival? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is taking place, put on the Christian personality, dedicate themselves to Jehovah, and loyally support Christ’s brothers. (Matt. 25:35-40) Those who do these things will receive the mark of survival during the coming great tribulation."
The difference is the i.d. of the man who marks. It used to be the anointed but now it is Jesus, who is also one of the 6 executioners I do not get it, though.The Bible speaks of them as 2 characters- the marker a subordinate who did as he was told and reported back . Ezekiel 9.5 calls the 6 men "the others" (NWT 2013)Go figure?

 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 12 days ago
Ah, actually it's based on your FS hours. The more FS hours you have, the better chance of your survival, it seems with the JWs.
 +2 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 12 days ago

and loyally support Christ’s brothers
in other words "do, and like, whatever we say without question or die"
 +2 / -0
blondie
blondie 12 days ago

*** w86 9/1 p. 5 “Follow His Steps Closely”—How? ***
Christians are likewise required to imitate Christ by getting baptized. Baptism is a sacred symbol, an outward sign of dedication. When we agree to work for a person or a firm, we first ascertain the requirements and conditions and often follow through by signing a contract. But without a signature, the contract is not binding. So it is with baptism—it makes our dedication to God valid. In a sense, like Jesus we say: ‘Look! I am come to do your will, O God.’ (Hebrews 10:7) We thus become God’s servants, his ministers!—2 Corinthians 3:5, 6.
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 12 days ago

So being in the Kingdom of God is like joining a Firm? I'm sure the lawyers wrote that. By the way, has everyone watched "The Firm"???
Is Sam Herd the "Wilford Brimly" of the group? If so, who's Gene Hackman, Tomo?



DD
 +3 / -0
Fisherman
Fisherman 12 days ago


So I guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".
The JW article you linked speaks for itself, but it needs to be read.
The "man with the ink horn" scripture that you reference in your post is only one of many scriptures that describes some facet of salvation that the Bible says is to occur at Armageddon. There are also many other scriptures that explain other aspects of being saved. The teaching of salvation from God's angelic executioners is a Bible doctrine that does not depend on WT interpretation of the Bible.
 +1 / -0
Tenacious
Tenacious 12 days ago

The study is designed to induce fear of eternal destruction and therefore, parents, teens, and the undecided will run to get baptized and this in turn will increase their ranks and by default even more people will become trapped in their little cult web.
Their day is quickly coming to an end and I just hope I'm alive to see it all play out.
 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty 12 days ago
Marking, thanks.
 +1 / -0

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"New light"?
by winstonchurchill 12 days ago 30 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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redvip2000
redvip2000 12 days ago

This prophecy was given in 612 B.C.E.,

Except for the fact that Ezekiel was born in 622 BC, so that would make him 10. Who can believe Washtowell cronology anymore? It's almost as if they created a parallel reality to fit all of their made up dates.

 +5 / -0
Listener
Listener 12 days ago
Good pick up Londo. The man with the inkhorn used to be the anointed. Now all of the anointed, other than the GB are demoted once again, they are just domestics along with the GC.


 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 12 days ago

Fisherman;
''So I guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".
Expect more fear-inducing talks at the upcoming A$$emblies and Conventions this summer. Last year on the Saturday part they had a talk placed squarely on brothers ''who were not reaching out and following Christ at a distance''.
I look for something similar if not more fear mongering the rank and file in ''not doing enough'', ''it's not enough''. I expect the rank and file to just lap it up and go into more depressed mode about ''not making it''.
 +1 / -0
WTWizard
WTWizard 11 days ago

They can take their "new light" from their new squiggly thing and shove it. Why would I want "salvation" in this form? I understand the jokehovian witless religion is a religion of damnation, not just for the adherents but for the whole planet. I only need the light of the Sun to see this, not some stupid squiggly thing.
And yes, I did the horrible thing of getting baptized. As for Satan stopping people from doing this, where was He when I was on my way into the cancer? And where was Astaroth? Had they been working on me during the 6 months before my initial call through the time I got baptized instead of blowing me off, I never would have gone into this cancer in the first place. And the saying "Satan is working hard to get you disfellowshipped"--another no show? Without being accepted by Satan and Astaroth, salvation is totally pointless--and going back in is a form of slow but certain suicide for your soul.
But, at least use astrology to minimize collateral damage. Putting in 6 hours a month, or something that reduces to 6, will tie in with the energy of Saturn. Could you somehow make that back up into the washtowel, creating extra problems for them? Field circus while Mercury is retrograde or the moon is void of course is likely to be fruitless. You still waste your time, but at least you do not get anyone else damned. Donating anything? If you are going to, at least do so on a Saturday so the energy of Saturn is involved to create extra problems for the washtowel. Never donate on Sunday (the energy of the Sun is wasted on this cult) or Thursday (do you want Jupiter to expand the cult?).
 +1 / -0
Mephis
Mephis 11 days ago

Wrote something elsewhere, but this prophecy was one of Rutherford's initial explanations for how there could be an anointed class and a great crowd (Jehu class and Jehonadab class).
Changing it to an 'end of times' prophecy makes even less sense, using JW beliefs, because now the anointed are passive observers to a 'marking'. The idea that those marked are active JWs becomes even more ridiculous when you realise none of those marked are even outside of Jerusalem (which was once considered Christendom) nor doing much more than 'groaning' about conditions.
The logical conclusion to the new interpretation is that you don't have to be an active JW, just unhappy with how the world is, to be marked. They try to deny that in their new interpretation but there's absolutely nothing in Ezekiel 9 to suggest that those 'marked' do anything but get 'marked'. And you have to wonder how this latter day Ezekiel is outside of events in Jerusalem without a rapture style event.
This is the problem they have with picking apart Russell and Rutherford. They're relying on the 'sheep' being too dim, or too fearful, to point out how it's all falling apart. But if you're still inside and believing, you bought overlapping generations so...
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 11 days ago

Simply put, it is just more FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt)
 +1 / -0
DwainBowman
DwainBowman 10 days ago

During my lifetime, baptism was never the mark for survival! That was jyst a sign that was supposed to show your giving your life to god, to do his will. Baptism is just a sign that you claim something. The other sign, is proof that god says, you really, do his will and get his promised reward!
That sign was always a part of the man with the ink horn! And isn't a type antitype thing!
Dwain

Vidiot
Vidiot 10 days ago

"Get baptized! Commit! Spend all your available time (and your unavailable time, FTM) associating, studying, praying, servicing, and attending...
x
...but remember, even that won't guarantee you a seat on the Ark..."
x


 +1 / -0
fastJehu
fastJehu 10 days ago

winstonchurchill
So I guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".
The same WT on page 26 § 13 shows us the "mark for survival":
STAY in the ORGANIZATION
An even greater mistake would be to allow the faults of others to stumble us and cause us to leave Jehovah’s organization. Were that to happen, we would lose not only the privilege of doing God’s will but also the hope of life in God’s new world.
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 10 days ago

I don't see any nu-light as far a baptism is concerned. To gain life you must:
1) React favorably to a Dubs rehearsed, 3-4 minute, life-saving sales pitch.
2) Bring your life into harmony with "The Truth."
3) Get baptized as a J-Dumb.
That's the same crap as always, no matter who the guy with the ink-horn is said to be. What's new about having to be in "The Ark/ Org" to survive the BIG A??
DD

DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 10 days ago

Nice catch Jehu. Nothing has changed, despite whatever the official PR/FAQ section may say to the ignorant public minority who actually visit the official website, before going back to their lives.
Dont be stumbled by others, eh?? Would molesting children, lying to the Superior Authorities, opposing Caesar when possible to support non-mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse, maintaining membership with the OSCE and investing in hedge-funds be classed as "imperfections"??
Are we supposed to stay in the ORG after the GB are outed as frauds and the GB helpers take over, you know, in the next decade of re-branding? Am I understanding this paragraph? As Fisherman says, I have poor reading comprehension.
DD
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-june-2016/man-with-inkhorn/.
so i guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".. as a matter of fact, that key aspect of the 'old light' is not even acknowledged in this article.. they are just publishing new understanding without even bothering to explain the full extent of the change, hoping nobody will remember how it was... and they may be right about that..



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Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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Terry
2
2-LEGGED GOD and 1-LEGGED MAN: A look at Divine Justice
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 days ago
1. god is perfect and righteous and just.. 2. god demands perfection, righteousness and justice.. 3. god creates man inferior to himself yet demands performance at his superior level.. .

what is wrong with this picture?.

isn't this like creating a man with one leg and demanding he doesn't hop?.

prologos
Finkelstein
9 days ago
sieborg
31
Vomit inducing JW Broadcasting Music Video
by sieborg in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 days ago
sorry in advance if you have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay5of0nxm44.

do not know how to put in a direct link.

hoser
minimus
macys
9 days ago
WireRider
4
What happens when we become "God"?
by WireRider in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 days ago
humans are doing genetic research on enormous scales.

do you want your baby to have brown or blonde hair?

weed out genetic imperfections?

Wasanelder Once
Finkelstein
Finkelstein
10 days ago
cofty
8
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 days ago
one of the major differences between mammals and reptiles is in our ears.

we have three small bones that transmit sound to the inner ear.

technically called "auditory ossicles", they are the malleus (hammer), incus (anvil), and stapes (stirrup).. reptiles have just one bone in their ears, the stapes.

LoveUniHateExams
cofty
LoveUniHateExams
10 days ago
freemindfade
23
Saturday Morning Vibes
by freemindfade in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 days ago
its saturday morning here on the east coast of america.

i haven't been out in service in probably getting close to two years.

i wake up every saturday extremely happy and thankful im not getting up to go f-ck up my morning and my neighbors morning, not today, not ever again.

freemindfade
WTWizard
Sail Away
10 days ago
Terry
7
A WRITER (me) looks at the "character GOD" from the standpoint of bad writing
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 days ago
i pay attention to what other writers write about writing.

writers always have limits--even writers of fiction.. do you choose to live in a world where pigs fly and deuces are wild?

that would be an imaginary world.. do you choose to live in a world where god rules?

Xanthippe
Socrateswannabe
The freewheeling
9 days ago
Ultimate Axiom
16
Where's Awake! No.3?
by Ultimate Axiom in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 days ago
it's nearly march and awake!

no.3 has still not appeared on jw.org.

has it come out in paper form, or has something gone wrong?

Ultimate Axiom
Skedaddle
Simon
10 days ago
atomant
10
lf evolution is true then doesnt it make sense that other life forms exist on far away planets.?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 days ago
just thought ld throw it out there for discussion.lf we evolved from nothing doesnt it stand to reason that other life forms also evolved from nothing?l mean lets face it time is infinite.

so given enough time its possible for anything to happen isnt it?

Heaven
smiddy
freemindfade
11 days ago
zophar
10
Are Jehovah's Witnesses Saved by Grace...Undeserved Kindness?
by zophar in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 days ago
there was a time that one could, if they dug deep enough, come up with the answer that jw’s teach that one is “saved” by grace or the nwt preferred “undeserved kindness.” for instance, in the reasoning book p. 360 under the heading “salvation” there is a sub-heading under the section, “if someone says”: ‘are you saved?’ here is what it says you could say if someone asks, “are you saved?’ you might reply: ‘so far, i am.’…….

the conclusion being, you are saved right now.

and yes, you need to remain faithful, but you are right now in a saved state.

LoveUniHateExams
Beth Sarim
Ucantnome
11 days ago
winstonchurchill
30
"New light"?
by winstonchurchill in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 days ago
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-june-2016/man-with-inkhorn/.

so i guess baptism is no longer the "mark for survival".. as a matter of fact, that key aspect of the 'old light' is not even acknowledged in this article.. they are just publishing new understanding without even bothering to explain the full extent of the change, hoping nobody will remember how it was... and they may be right about that..

fastJehu
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG
10 days ago
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/ All JWs need to watch this great documentary...it may give them pause for thought.
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All JWs need to watch this great documentary...it may give them pause for thought.
by deanxxx 12 days ago 11 Replies latest 12 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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deanxxx
deanxxx 12 days ago

I know how hard it is to awaken people still inside the cult bubble. There are many reasons for this, chief among them the unwillingness to read or watch anything critical of their religion. On the other hand, JWs love few things more than hearing bad stuff about other faith groups.
With that in mind, maybe one 'tactic' could be to show JW family/friends documentaries like the recent 'Prophet's Prey' (2015) about the psychopathic, sexual predatory, paedophilic recidivist scumbag Warren Jeffs and the FLDS church. Just maybe, for a moment, they will look inwards and notice some uncomfortable similarities. After all, daring to think the unthinkable is what made me start asking questions.
Anyway, if you haven't seen the film it's well worth a watch. It's sickening of course but also, in many ways quite familiar.
The excellent movie 'Spotlight' could be worth a go too.
 +3 / -0
deanxxx
deanxxx 12 days ago
Haha...Just got to 1hr 10mins in. Lol, it's worth watching the film just to hear Jeffs destroy Bob Dylan.
 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin 12 days ago

I see it is on Putlocker, so I shall watch it on the w/end. Bookmarked, and thanks!
Will check out Spotlight as well - is it new? I always have to check, I've watched as many as I could find. The CBC archives has some good stuff. xx
 +2 / -0
deanxxx
deanxxx 12 days ago
talespin: Spotlight is new, I think it's on putlocker but I got it from piratebay. Yeh CBC is great.
 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin 12 days ago

Good stuff! I have a busy morning, but will spend the next couple of days resting, so will watch those two docs.
.
I love the CBC, glad you're a fan, too. Marketplace is a fav, and of course, the Doc Zone and The Passionate Eye. There *is* good TV (though I don't own one) to be found, and I like the British and Australian public channels as well. The only show I really miss is Jeopardy. Yes, I'm a nerd. : P
Thanks for the heads-up, and Happy Friday.

 +2 / -0
Tornintwo
Tornintwo 12 days ago
I watched Spotlight last weekend and it's just excellent, it's based in the newsroom on the reporters, it just gives you a sense of the enormity of what went on in the Catholic Church and the scale of the cover up, how high up it went etc. just shocking.
 +3 / -0
Landy
Landy 12 days ago
I think JWs have an inability to correlate anything that happens in another religion/cult with their own. They will happily watch any docs on other cults and nod satisfactorily to themselves, self confirming that they have the 'truth'.
 +4 / -0
deanxxx
deanxxx 12 days ago

"They will happily watch any docs on other cults and nod satisfactorily to themselves, self confirming that they have the 'truth'."
Sadly, very true.
 +3 / -0
tor1500
tor1500 12 days ago

Hi,
The JW's could watch anything that may look, walk or talk like them..but they will never admit it...they see it, but won't admit it. You see, if you took away Jehovah Witness, what would they be left with? What would be their identity. That is their identity being a JW, & if you took that away from them, what would they have or who would they be....Zilch, nothing, Zero....
Many have turned their backs on their friends & family who did not worship Jehovah, so now many may want to come out but can't...they have no one. But what they don't know or maybe they do, folks outside the org. are just imperfect folks just like they are. Today there is too much media talk for them not to know what's going on behinh closed doors, but they choose not to listen....Oh, they no it's true...but too embarrassed to admit it....too busy pointing fingers at others...Their pride just won't let them.
JW's are like Teflon, nothing sticks on them....even when they sin, they say, well, it's not so much that they sinned but that they brought reproach on Jehovah's name....None of what we do sticks to God...if we do something wrong it brings reproach on US, not Jehovah. See even when they sin they are not accountable...they throw it on Jehovah...Oh Jehovah I know I did wrong but more than that I brought reproach on your name...Phooey...
Tor

Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 12 days ago

Looks like it's on Hulu.. but you need to have Showtime as well. Prophet's Prey Documentary


kjg132
kjg132 12 days ago
One film that helped me was a BBC piece on the Exclusive Brethren. The similarities were so striking that I stopped watching it a couple of times worried that I was being "tricked into watching an apostate video" even though it was not about Witnesses at all! It also helped someone else I knew leave. If you have ever read the second or third (can't remember now) Steve Hassan books he talks about how building trust and not putting down the loved ones cult is important but that introducing information on other groups can be very effective psychologically in freeing a loved one from a cult. I know it is easy to get discouraged and think that no one is going to change or wake-up......but we all did......so it's still possible. And getting someone engaged in seeing how egregious the actions of another cult are (with the possibility of them somehow identifying with it) can be effective, I speak from experience

deanxxx
deanxxx 12 days ago

It's a tricky one. I do understand as some have already said that showing JWs films about other cults could make them feel better about their own group.
I think kjg123 made an important point. Showing them films about other cults that are very close to their own is probably more effective because, although we can see the similarities between scientology, JWs, FLDS, etc etc each of those groups view the other the same way: they are damned, we are saved because we have the truth - which is another similarity that they (all cults) fail to readily recognise.
People in cults are great at spotting other cults...oh the irony.
 +1 / -0

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/ Who Picks The Governing Body?
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Who Picks The Governing Body?
by millie210 12 days ago 40 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Hey everyone,
Just a simple straight forward question on exactly what the process is. If a GB member died tomorrow, do the remaining ones choose who gets to be next?
I am guessing the whole thing is highly political but since they are such a rule and paperwork oriented bunch, I am assuming they have a procedure they follow?
 +8 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 12 days ago
good question, wondering if any newbies are being considered ?
 +4 / -0
freddo
freddo 12 days ago

Pretty much yes. Just like an elders meeting where they say "Billy's good but his wife's a fruitloop; how about Cecil?" "Yeah, he won't rock the boat - two thirds in favour? Aye!"
Except they don't have to ask the CO if it's OK!
 +13 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 12 days ago
The current GB appoints any new members. They're the very definition of self-appointed.
 +6 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

Hello millie210,
there is a constant eye on potentials - people who simply seem to be outstanding in some way - and they are quietly groomed without being told, although the news does tend to leak to them.

 +5 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 12 days ago

So, they have to be already saying they're anointed then?! Wow, very slim pickings... and only from crazy people who think they'll rule from the heavens. Kinda explains why they have seven dumbasses onboard!
I wonder how many get to a position in New York and suddenly decide they are anointed...
 +9 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 12 days ago
If one dies, the replacement would most likely be a Governing Body helper. Many "annointed" among these ones...
 +5 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 12 days ago

Who picks the Governing Body?
Well, that's easy...that's da Holy Spirit's job
Image result for ohh deer cards

 +13 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 12 days ago

If one dies, the replacement would most likely be a Governing Body helper. Many "annointed" among these ones...



Oh really? No shaking heads of disgust for them then, no?!
 +5 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

jookbeard
good question, wondering if any newbies are being considered ?



I would imagine that answer is yes - given the age of some of them?




freddo
Pretty much yes. Just like an elders meeting where they say "Billy's good but his wife's a fruitloop; how about Cecil?" "Yeah, he won't rock the boat - two thirds in favour? Aye!"
Except they don't have to ask the CO if it's OK!

That would be funny (well it actually is very funny) if it werent the exact truth about how it really happens~
 +4 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

OneEyedJoe
The current GB appoints any new members. They're the very definition of self-appointed



So in that case...how do more liberal ones ever get appointed? Or more deep thinkers (I realize I am opening myself up for great puns here)



is i a case of "like" appointing like? If you are newly apponted and have an idea does a lack of seniority matter in any way?
 +2 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Acts5v29
Hello millie210,
there is a constant eye on potentials - people who simply seem to be outstanding in some way - and they are quietly groomed without being told, although the news does tend to leak to them
Hi to you Acts, so in what way would they be outstanding?
 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 12 days ago

It's a boys club. Look at the weirdos on the GB.
If I had my conspiricy hat on, I'd say that they are all sexual predators and they 'employ' (appoint), the one most likely to supply them fodder for their perverted needs. New GB members are another fellow member in their 'ring' of a certain type of pervert.
Personally, I have given up worrying about this stuff. however, that said, the GB should be held to account for the deaths and agony they've caused.
 +6 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Skedaddle
So, they have to be already saying they're anointed then?! Wow, very slim pickings... and only from crazy people who think they'll rule from the heavens. Kinda explains why they have seven dumbasses onboard!
I wonder how many get to a position in New York and suddenly decide they are anointed...
Good question...are these newly annointed already GB helpers or are they related to someone with influence already?
When I say "with influence" I am thinking of someone like the Adams brothers...?
Divergent, are we looking at auditions when we see broadcasts from GB Helpers?
Divergent
If one dies, the replacement would most likely be a Governing Body helper. Many "annointed" among these ones...


 +2 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

LOL at Orphans post!
actually I could use some of that about right now.............
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

punkofnice
It's a boys club. Look at the weirdos on the GB.
If I had my conspiricy hat on, I'd say that they are all sexual predators and they 'employ' (appoint), the one most likely to supply them fodder for their perverted needs. New GB members are another fellow member in their 'ring' of a certain type of pervert.
Personally, I have given up worrying about this stuff. however, that said, the GB should be held to account for the deaths and agony they've caused

I think you are right and with the tight parameters of membership in to the GB it functions a lot like politics....
that is what got me started thinking about this whole question actually...
Politics!
There doesnt seem to be much difference in religion and politics except politics is probably a cleaner sport.
(sarcasm intended)
Punk -I believe there is a germ of truth in what you are saying about sexual proclivities....................
I was thinking it was maybe one and the rest turn a blind eye.
 +3 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 12 days ago

millie: LOL at Orphans post!
actually I could use some of that about right now.............
Geez, Millie, I was like - I got this one! I got this one!
Hand waving in the air....
Besides, from what I have read about those Crooklyn Boys, The Holy Spirit burns inside them on a regular basis. They consume the 'firewater' liberally, so I have been told.
 +3 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 12 days ago


Who Picks The Governing Body?
.........................This Little Girl....................................................Damn Friggin OUTLAW!

.......She`s Picking Another One Right Now.................................NOBODY LAUGH!!..

...Image result for Child picking nose....Image result for JW.Org Broadcasting Anthony Morris
 +9 / -0
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 12 days ago

In the old days, without him knowing about it, they used to put a Bound Volume of the years Watchtowers under a stack of mattresses and have the potential candidate sleep on it (princess and the pea style). If he couldn't sleep that night, they knew he was GB material.
Nowadays with the CD's and all, I'm not sure how they go about it but I'm sure it's all very scientific.

 +4 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 12 days ago

Who picks the Governing Body?
They pick themselves.
 +2 / -0

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Who Picks The Governing Body?
by millie210 12 days ago 40 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Beth Sarim
Who picks the Governing Body?
They pick themselves

Sad but true....

millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Outlaw,
you always have the right answer!
How DO you do that?
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Pete Zahuto

In the old days, without him knowing about it, they used to put a Bound Volume of the years Watchtowers under a stack of mattresses and have the potential candidate sleep on it (princess and the pea style). If he couldn't sleep that night, they knew he was GB material.
Nowadays with the CD's and all, I'm not sure how they go about it but I'm sure it's all very scientific.
LOL
Yes, Im sure it is all highly scientific (not).
So they need something bulky and useless to sleep on????
Hmmmm....
How about a written explanation of the overlapping generations?
 +3 / -0
pixel
pixel 12 days ago

They use the following method:
Friend-picks-friend.

 +5 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

What got me started thinking about this was the whole process of picking a justice for the supreme court.
In the U.S. (for those of you who live in saner countries) there is a whole huge jockying for position going on in the U.S. over picking another person to serve on the Supreme Court.
The choice of this person carries a lot of ramifications.
So as it relates to the GB...they pick their own successors.



Is this a unanimous vote?
Are there any outside voters?
Do the Adams brothers get to vote for instance?

 +1 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 12 days ago

so in what way would they be outstanding?



Well here's how Anthony Morris III got in;



 +3 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 12 days ago


pixel said: They use the following method:

Friend-picks-friend.
This ^, right here , is the definition of nepotism.

 +3 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 12 days ago


Outlaw,
you always have the right answer!
How DO you do that?.....millie210
............Image result for ta da!
.................Image result for rabbit out of hat gif
 +5 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

Hello millie210,

Hi to you Acts, so in what way would they be outstanding?
It could be some extra-spiritual action beyond the norm, something which is beyond mere congregational duties, or something for which their spirituality becomes evident as different from others. However in the same way as Fatima, it would only be valid if it were within the confines of the congregational membership - a prominent action followed by someone joining would not be counted as the same thing.
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 12 days ago
If you've never had children your chances of being selected are far greater.
 +2 / -0
millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Listener
f you've never had children your chances of being selected are far greater.



Why?
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 12 days ago
Out of the current 7 GB members, I believe only one (Morris) has had children. These guys are appointed leaders and have had no experience in raising children.
 +2 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 12 days ago

The Governing Body picks new members.
On a side note, I've been wondering if the creation of the Governing Body was not a measure to avoid ugly power struggles and hostile takeovers that would tend to occur when there's a power vacuum?
I mean, when there is just one figure calling all the shots and that figure dies there's a vacuum that may result in an ugly fight for power and control of the organization such as happened with Rutherford after the death of C.T. Russel. But when you have a Governing Body, power is shared by a collective so the death of an individual never leaves a power vacuum and a political struggle for control. A Governing Body serves to prevent a scenario where there is a complete power vacuum - a scenario that can only occur if all the members died at the same time.
The GB also serves to preserve the status quo and prevent, or at least deter, radical changes from happening. The collective has to agree for any changes to occur and the collective will tend to appoint only those they trust to preserve the status quo. And even if they appoint a rogue, he is only one person and his rogue ideas will be voted down by the collective.
This kind of setup means it is likely that there are lot of secret "lobbying" and behind the scenes dealing and bargaining and quid pro quos among members of the GB to establish majority consensus to get changes agreed on. "You support me on this proposed doctrinal change that I'll table at the next meeting and I'll support your idea to raise the stipends for you and all the members of your committee..."

 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 11 days ago

The list of qualifications is extensive. They are as follows, in no particular order.
1) Delusional
2) Loyal to the WTBTS at all costs.
3) The ability to lie at the spur of the moment, even to Govermental authorities and institutions.
4) Adept at underwear wrestling.
5) Willingness to pose for photo-shop field-service.
6) Hatred of homosexuals, especially clothing designers.
7) Zero tolerance for tight pants and bright socks.
8) Myopic world view that excludes the reading of any books not written by yourself.
9) Learning disabilities regarding context clues and the SQ3R method of study.
10) Disdain for charitable works, especially feeding the homeless.
11) Must regard Jesus as an errand-boy for the WTBTS Inc.
12) Must be able to spin information better that Fox News.
13) Must have a proven history of laughing at all pedophile jokes, ignoring accusations of pedophilia, protecting pedophiles, opposing any and all mandatory reporting laws.
14) Must have at least 1/3 more brain mass than all female congregants.
15) Fear of burnt, bloody hot-dogs.
16) Firm conviction that CTR predicted and was directly responsible for the I-phone.
17) Must have a penis. No size restrictions.
18) Must be a fan of Bill Cosby, Jerry Sandusky, Jared Fogle, pudding pops and Foot-longs.
19) Expert at revisionist history.
20) Must have the ability to at least partially recite pre-written outlines containing insane anecdotes in front of large crowds of slack-jawed yokels.
As you can see from the spiritual requirements, only the best reach the position of Governing Body member.
DD
 +5 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 11 days ago

Good Question. I've wondered the same thing.
Acts5v29: there is a constant eye on potentials - people who simply seem to be outstanding in some way - and they are quietly groomed without being told, although the news does tend to leak to them.
How do you know that? I'm not doubting it; it's just that you say it with no reservation as if you know it for sure. Were you a higher-up in the org? Do you have personal experience related to this question?
 +1 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 11 days ago
I was associated with a congregation where that was happening

 +1 / -0
clarity
clarity 11 days ago

"I was thinking it was maybe one and the rest turn a blind eye."
Well Millie that has been the case.
Leo Greenlees & a chubby guy ... Percy ...cant remember last name, were gb members and the rest just turned a blind eye. Even Freddie Franz was weird in that way ..... many hours spent in the steam room (necked as a jailbird!) with the young boys!
Percy had a special boys who were called Percy's boys!
clarity
 +1 / -0
clarity
clarity 11 days ago

The other name I was looking for was Ewart Chitty. Not sure about Percy being kicked out but he seems very questionable. Sort of Like Franz in the steam room I guess!
http://www.freeminds.org/bethel/homosexuality_bethel.htm
 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 11 days ago
To be captain obvious, there has to be a lot of 'brown-nosing' and/or behind-kissing to rise in the ranks in the Borg. Captain obvious, but just saying.
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 11 days ago

I had heard that before Clarity but didnt have names to put to the scenario so thank you for that.
I am starting a document of things I want to keep for that fun day when I talk to my brother (hes a missionary with the extremely narrow range of thinking that you would expect to go along with that) and try to make my case.
I am not rushing it. I want to be prepared.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
hey everyone,.
just a simple straight forward question on exactly what the process is.
if a gb member died tomorrow, do the remaining ones choose who gets to be next?.



Related Topics
Splash
Which current GB members are part of the "overlapping generation"?
by Splash 5 months ago
Simon
Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon 5 months ago
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by berrygerry 3 months ago
MarkofCane
My Story "Act 2"
by MarkofCane 2 months ago
new boy
My Bethel Exoerience part 14 "The Courtship"
by new boy 2 months ago



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Who Picks The Governing Body?
by millie210 12 days ago 40 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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millie210
millie210 10 days ago

A look at how things got to where they are now...



The 1970 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses noted that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania was the organization used to plan the activity of Jehovah's Witnesses and provide them with "spiritual food", then declared: "So really the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is the board of directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

The Watchtower of December 15, 1971 was the first to unambiguously capitalize the term "Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses" as the defined group leading the religion, with a series of articles explaining its role and its relationship with the Watch Tower Society.



After its formal establishment in 1971, the Governing Body met regularly but, according to Raymond Franz, only briefly; Franz claims meetings were sometimes as short as seven minutes.

The Governing Body voted in December 1975 to establish six operating committees to oversee the various administrative requirement of the organization's worldwide activities that formerly had been under the direction of the president; furthermore, each branch overseer was to be replaced by a branch committee of at least three members.



The change, which took effect on January 1, 1976, was described in the Watch Tower Society's 1993 history book, Jehovah's Witnesses—Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, as "one of the most significant organizational readjustments in the modern-day history of Jehovah's Witnesses.



In 1980, dissent arose among members of the Governing Body regarding the significance of 1914 in Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines.



Consequently, dissenting members were expelled from the Brooklyn headquarters staff in the same year.


In his 1997 study of the religion, Penton concluded that since Raymond Franz's expulsion in 1980, the Governing Body displayed an increased level of conservatism, sturdy resistance to changes of policy and doctrines, and an increased tendency to isolate dissidents within the organization by means of disfellowshipping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governing_Body_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses










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Topic Summary
hey everyone,.
just a simple straight forward question on exactly what the process is.
if a gb member died tomorrow, do the remaining ones choose who gets to be next?.



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NWT...how accurate?
by Theburstbubble 13 days ago 21 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Theburstbubble
Theburstbubble 13 days ago
I'm sorry if I'm covering old ground here. But is the NWT bible a credible translation of the scriptures? I'm not asking if you believe in the bible or not. Just as a translation is it as accurate as they say it is? Or have they played with some of the verses to suit the beliefs? Just curious...
 +3 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 13 days ago
They have massaged verses that made them doctrinally uncomfortable...especially when a passage supported the deity of Christ.
 +5 / -0
stillin
stillin 13 days ago
It is much more a paraphrase now than a translation.
 +2 / -0
baker
baker 13 days ago
Col 1:15,17 and20 the word "other" has been added to change the meaning to slant toward what they teach. The interlinear translation they use to publish does not have this word there, so the interlinear is no longer available from them. Just one example among "other"s.
 +1 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 13 days ago
the NWT NT is nothing short of a joke
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 12 days ago
What Londo said. They have massaged every single scripture suggesting the deity of Christ. Do some research, type in 'scriptures proving the deity of christ' and compare how NWT translates them compared to other translations, and use the kingdom interlinear. There was a concerted EFFORT to downgrade Jesus, and when I realized that, I lost all respect for them.Also, research what all the 'J' citings in the new testament were. In the beginning of the interlinear it says what the sources were. Research them. They put them there as if there is a good excuse to use the name Jehovah in the NT. They are nonsense. 238 times, if I recall correctly..
 +2 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 12 days ago

Every Bible translation has some bias based on the doctrinal belief of the translators. Since there are multiple ways to translate certain passages, there is a requirement for interpretation as part of translation. This is also the case with the NWT. This is way an argument over how to translate a passage such as John 1:1 can be irreconcilable.
The older NWT was less biased than the new NWT, as it highlighted via [ .. ] where the translators had added a word to make sense of a passage. The NNWT does not do this, and so quite blatantly has made a translation to fit the doctrinal views of Watchtower without the reader realising that passages do not read as generally considered acceptable.
 +6 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 12 days ago
If you want a well respected and highly regarded translation of the bible, go with the New Revised Standard Version. It was produced by a committee of some of the most qualified and respected biblical scholars of our time, using the most reliable biblical manuscripts available. If I need to look up scriptures and want the most unbiased translation available, the NRSV is my go to bible now.

slimboyfat
slimboyfat 12 days ago

I made a post to this thread but it never showed up. It was a pure belter.

FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 12 days ago
Please post again sbf, tho I know how frustrating it is to rewrite something.

freeman
freeman 12 days ago

I find myself in the uncomfortable position of defending the NWT. I think it's a decent translation in some respects.
After about 4 ½ years of study of New Testament Greek I can say that the majority of passages in the NT portion of the NWT are rendered more or less correctly.
That said, there is an important caveat concerning the accuracy of their translation, and it is this: They render the Greek into English accurately as long as the passage in question does not undermine their overriding theology. In other words, they tell the truth until they get cornered and then they lie their ass off. 
It's really funny reading it in the Greek and seeing them translate the same construct of words correctly except when they get to a passage that conflicts with their teaching, and sometimes this happens on the same page or chapter of a particular NT book, it is amazing.
So their ya go. It's just my opinion, but I think it's a decent translation except for all the lies. :smile:
Freeman
 +8 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 12 days ago

In my waking experience this is something I've delved into quite heavily. That being the original texts from various Codexes and so on.
Certainly no scholar with years and years of study but after roughly 2 years of learning Koine Greek and substantial study I can say unequivocally that the NWT, grossly misrepresents the scriptures when the original text curiously doesn't fit the desired doctrine.
Take 2 Corinthians 5:20. In this text the phrase "substituting for Christ" is added with regards to ambassadors. There is zero basis for this however it is postured in such a way as if to further bolster authority. Or at least that's how I see it. To me that's simply incorrigible.
 +5 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 12 days ago

I've always liked this assessment of the NWT from someone who disagreed with various renderings.
Robert M. McCoy, writing in the Andover Newton Quarterly, January, 1963.
"The translation of the New Testament is evidence of the presence in the movement of scholars qualified to deal intelligently with the many problems of Biblical translation. This translation, as J. Carter Swain observes, has its peculiarities and its excellences. All in all, it would seem that a reconsideration of the challenge of this movement to the historical churches is in order."


Theburstbubble
Theburstbubble 11 days ago
I don't know why but I find it quite sad if the NWT is so misleading to support their own beliefs. Well I do know why it makes me feel sad because it means everything was a lie. I know there is a lot wrong with this religion but I had hoped the NWT was a good version. Thanks for the information, I'll do some more research.
 +4 / -0
Terry
Terry 11 days ago

Just a SIDEBAR here.
In a court of law, a handwriting expert will testify whether somebody's writing is authentic or not ONLY if an original specimen, called an "exemplar" is available for analysis.
Without an original version, nothing can be determined to the court's satisfaction.
I recall now with amusement the day I discovered the fact there are no originals for the Bible--no exemplars--nothing in the way of "autograph copies" (in other words, in the actual handwriting of the author) in any museum, church, repository, safe, or private collection. There is NOTHING.
Why do I mention this?
The question: HOW ACCURATE IS THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION is a question
without meaning because there are no exemplars for comparison.
There are only approximations of approximations of copies of copies widely divergent with others.
To make a long story short, THERE IS NO THERE THERE.
 +2 / -0
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 11 days ago

In my opinion it is a very reliable version for the JW. It is in keeping with their theology.
It is not a good translation though. A translation is the translators interpretation of what the writer was trying to convey
 A version is someones version of what they want to hear
NWT is a version, not a translation imho
 +2 / -0
TD
TD 11 days ago
It is not a great translation, but believe it or not, there are worse out there and others that are almost equally biased. .

 +3 / -0
umbertoecho
umbertoecho 10 days ago

I was shown "on the new app" by an elder; how wonderfully accurate the Silver Sword is.
Jason Be'Dunne (hope I have spelled this correctly) is the author in support of this new bible and is endorsed by the society. I looked him up and down loaded
Truth In Translation, by this Jason person. Then I looked for peer reviews to see how other scholars reacted to this book. A book that seems to support the JWs new bible.
There were only two that bothered to analyse it and his own university distanced itself from the book. This did not bode well as far as accuracy and unbiased scholarly research is concerned. One of Jason's problems is that he is not a linguist.
 +2 / -0
Mephis
Mephis 10 days ago

2 Samuel 24:1 is my personal favorite in their list of 'idiosyncratic' translations. No longer do you need wonder whether YHWH or Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1) incited David to take a census because the Governing Body have translated away the contradiction.
It's worthless to me as a translation. It just isn't worth the time needed to crosscheck it.
 +3 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 10 days ago
Where did "his own university" distance themselves from BeDuhn's book?


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NWT...how accurate?
by Theburstbubble 13 days ago 21 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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TD
TD 10 days ago


Jason Be'Dunne (hope I have spelled this correctly) is the author in support of this new bible and is endorsed by the society.
The JW's grey & silver bound Bible was published in 2013. Truth In Translation was published ten years before that in 2003.
I'm sure the JW's selectively quote BeDuhn, just like they selectively quote everyone else, but to be fair, he strongly criticizes the insertion of the name, "Jehovah" in the NT, so the book is hardly an unqualified endorsement of the NWT.

..his own university distanced itself from the book.
When and how did NAU do that?


TTWSYF
TTWSYF 10 days ago

Worth mentioning that no scholarly board, organization or university thinks enough of the NWT to even list it as a legit translation.
At least, that's my understanding


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Topic Summary
i'm sorry if i'm covering old ground here.
but is the nwt bible a credible translation of the scriptures?
i'm not asking if you believe in the bible or not.



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Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?
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Memorial 2016
by Flg8ter 13 days ago 37 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Flg8ter
Flg8ter 13 days ago
The memorial is on March 23 this year. But all the official Jewish calendars has Nissan 14 as April 22! April 22 is the start of Passover! I remember this happened a year or so ago.....but has anyone heard or told an explanation for the discrepancy? I mean I'd imagine the Jewish faith and nation may have a better handle on their own calendar then a group of guys sitting in NY!
 +6 / -0
St George of England
St George of England 13 days ago

The Jews work from the ASTRONOMICAL New Moon, the WT works from when they think the New Moon will be VISIBLE over Jerusalem.
George
 +3 / -0
Question_Mans_interpretation
Question_Mans_interpretation 13 days ago
What?! How did they get so off. And my kitchen calendar says passover is April 23rd. Is it 23 after sundown starts Nissan 14 or 22nd after sundown. Jewish days are sunset to sunset right?
 +4 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago
It is interesting how it turned-out this year. BTW, does anybody have the numbers on the memorial partakers from last year and how much of an increase from 2014.
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 13 days ago

What would the Jews know about Passover over the WT org?
Not like they were the ones who invented Passover....
... oh
 +8 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 13 days ago
I think I will attend this year I'm walking in the door and yell, I'am Back!!! pass the wine.
 +10 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 12 days ago

Beth Sarim

There were 1,056 more than in 2015 than 2014 memorial partakers.






 +5 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 12 days ago

Holy, Wow. Thanks ttdtt!!!!
That's a shocking jump in partakers. Maybe we will see a 10,000 jump one of these years.
 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 12 days ago
Have they changed the teaching, is the Great crowd the Anointed now??? LOL
 +4 / -0
Heartsafire
Heartsafire 12 days ago
Well last year the local dubs got a surprise. While everyone was passing crackers and wine, someone put anti-JW flyers all over the parking lot on the JW's cars etc. Wasn't me but wished I had thought of it.
 +2 / -1
prologos
prologos 12 days ago
At least the March memorial date will include a lunar eclipse, a glowing blood moon goes well with the red wine.
 +1 / -0
Acts5v29
Acts5v29 12 days ago

Good morning Fig8ter,
they do this every year, and every year commemorate on Nisan 15th. However, if you examine their description of their event, it gives caveats to avoid criticism...
[EDIT: an explanation for why? Perhaps they simply got it wrong for a few years and couldn't admit it! ]

 +2 / -0
Pubsinger
Pubsinger 12 days ago

Headline:
Shock as Watchtower does what it wants.
 +3 / -0
tiki
tiki 12 days ago
Hah....a whole month off....that sets a record. Its usually just a day or two. That always boggled my mind....I just figured it to be part of the "we are right...the whole world is wrong" bit.
 +1 / -0
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 12 days ago

This year, it is actually the Jews that are one month off. I found this on http://www.studiesintheword.org/jewish_calendar_errors.htm
Why the Jewish Calendar will be Incorrect in 2016
This article explains why most observant Jews and others following the Jewish calendar will be celebrating God's annual Holy Days one month late in 2016.
In trying to follow Exodus 12:2, Exodus 13:3-4, 7-10, and Numbers 9:2-3, Judaism says that Passover, which they celebrate on Nisan 15 rather than on Nisan 14, must not fall before the northern hemisphere spring equinox (Tekufot Nisan). The spring equinox currently occurs each year on March 20th or 21st and is that time when day and night are of approximately equal length. The spring equinox establishes the first day of spring. It is a solar, not a lunar, phenomenon.
But current Jewish calendar procedures periodically conflict with the use of the equinox to establish the first month of the religious year:
In 2016, Nisan 14 (Passover) can fall on March 22, the first opportunity for the 14th day of a Biblical month to occur after the equinox. But the Jewish calendar sets Nisan 14 at April 22nd. Why? Because the Jewish year 5776 (the spring months of 2016 fall within the Jewish year 5776) happens to be the 19th year of the 19-year calendar cycle and is then, by Judaic definition, a leap year (the 13th month must be added). This forces the first month to begin one month later than it normally would. Unfortunately, their calendar leap year tradition is so rigid that they fail to follow what we agree is the correct interpretation of the scriptures listed above, that God gave them, which strongly imply that the Passover must be kept at the first opportunity on or after the spring equinox.
What allows them to ignore their own calendar rules? One reason they feel free to adjust the calendar to their liking is because Leviticus 23:2 and 4 are interpreted by Jewish Oral Law as saying that the people are allowed to keep the Holy Days on whatever day is most convenient.
It should be pointed out that the Jewish calendar leap year designations are NOT Biblical.
Let's add a little more detail: The spring equinox occurs on March 20th at 4:40 PM, Jerusalem time. The Jewish calendar calculates the new moon of Adar II (the 13th month of the previous religious calendar year) to be at 9:31 PM on March 8th and, due to the postponements of the previous Tishri 1, March 11th as the first day of the month. Either day will place the 14th day of Adar II on or after the spring equinox and thus the month should be Nisan (Abib), not Adar II. The result of this error is that the Jewish calendar is ONE MONTH LATE from March 2016 through March 2017! By making 5776 a leap year, they ignore the fact that, by their own interpretation of the Torah, Passover must be observed at the first opportunity on or after the spring equinox. This is the way the lunar calendar is kept synchronized with the solar calendar, and is an essential part in keeping the Passover (and every other Holy Day) in its season.
But some may wonder why it matters when Abib occurs, as long as it is in the spring. One of the major justifications why Abib should be assigned to the first qualifying month relative to the spring equinox is that there needs to be a consistency between years so that crops will be in approximately the same stage of development at the same time each year. The importance of the maturity of grain for the wave-sheaf offering (Lev. 23:9-14) is obvious. Another reason is that the one month delay will push the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) too late and too close to the Israeli fall rainy season. For this reason we should avoid delaying Abib until the second month after the equinox as the Jewish calendar does in 2016. It is peculiar how the spring equinox is called "Tekufot Nisan", but when a conflict with the designated leap year occurs, the equinox is forced to fall in Adar II, not Nisan.
The Church of God Most High believes that the first day of every month must begin at the true conjunction of the sun and moon (the new moon) and that Passover (Abib or Nisan 14) must occur at the first opportunity on or after the spring equinox. That places Abib 1 on March 9th and Tishri 1 on September 1st. The result of all this is that in 2016 the Jewish calendar will keep the holydays one lunar month late.

 +6 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 12 days ago
And I thought last year was the last memorial, according to the cult?
 +6 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 12 days ago

OldHippie : Thanks for the explanation, very useful. I
 am bookmarking this page.
That being said, I find the condescending attitude of that article very interesting. The author makes it sound like the Jews are not following God’s Law and goes on about the “first opportunity on or after the spring equinox” – While not citing a single verse that would enforce this. Quite the contrary, Exodus 12:2 simply says “[this Month] will be the first of the months of the year for you”. Well, the first Month of the 2016 year will start on April 9 since the previous year was longer.
The actual interpretation that it should be after the spring equinox was a Jewish tradition that was used up to the 4th century. So, to condemn today’s Jews based on a tradition that the Jews themselves were responsible for is pure popcorn entertainment.
That article sounds like it was written by a self-righteous religious fanatic who takes the typical stance of judging others on insignificant matters. Why not write: “The Jews do this, we prefer to do that; what matters is that we take the time to mark the 14th of Nissan every year. To each his own.”
Funny thing is, until I read “Church of God Most High”, I thought the article had been written by a JW!

HowTheBibleWasCreated
HowTheBibleWasCreated 12 days ago
There is an exception in the book of Numbers about celebrating the passover in the second month if unable to do so on the first.
 +1 / -0
pixel
pixel 12 days ago

Why would God/Jesus make the super-important celebration so, SO difficult to even get the the correct date?
Beyond me.
It's like getting an invitation for a wedding where you will have to guess the correct date of the wedding based on crazy, random clues that the couple gives you instead of telling you what date is gonna be.

 +3 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 12 days ago
Pixel: Objectively, because there was no other calendar at that time :smile:
 +1 / -0

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Memorial 2016
by Flg8ter 13 days ago 37 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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pixel
pixel 12 days ago

StephaneLaliberte,



Sure, and the people from Egypt where doing all kind of crazy engineering based on the position of the moon. So it was not that hard the get or settle on a date. But no, it has to be over-the-top difficult.

 +1 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 12 days ago

Pixel, I was just about to refute your statement. Then, I made a research for the calendar used by the ancient Egyptians and... You're right!
The Jews followed a system that was based on the Babylonians and was obviously overly complicated.
 +3 / -0
Flg8ter
Flg8ter 12 days ago
Great responses! I just did a little more reading about it to. The break from the Jewish calendar was set by the Church of Rome at the first council of Nicaea to set up Easter. Long story short i guess is the memorial follows Easter around instead of the Jewish calendar. Interesting stuff!
 +2 / -0
pixel
pixel 12 days ago

Thank StephaneLaliberte.
My only point is: If it comes from God, and is important, it gotta be easy. Isn't it what the WT says all the time? 'The Truth is so easy". yeah whatever.

 +4 / -0
baker
baker 12 days ago
They are really getting brave leaving out the word "today" in "you will be with me in paradise" and making it the header. They use to avoid this verse, now they just remove the offensive word they don't like...
 +5 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 12 days ago

This is a long Post, and not for the faint-hearted, posted by the matchless Leolaia in 2011 :
"





 Post 16114 of 16118
 Since 9/1/2002

Tonight on the evening of April 18, 2011, observant Jews worldwide will celebrate Passover Seder, a night "different from all other nights". The Watchtower Society annually schedules the Memorial for Jehovah's Witnesses on a date that is supposed to coincide with the Jewish observance of Passover, as it would have been reckoned during Second Temple times (in particular, in the first century AD during the life of Jesus). This year the Memorial was observed last night, the evening of April 17. The two religious observances are thus a day out of sync, at least this year. There are a number of reasons for the dates to not coincide, such as the rationale used for determining the years intercalated with a second Adar. This post is not concerned with the reckoning of Nisan, intercalation, or related matters. This post is solely concerned with the reason why the two observances are on different days this year.
 The historical evidence undermines the claim that the JW reckoning is the same as that used in the first century to schedule Passover.
The February 1, 2011 issue of the Watchtower has an article on the Memorial and its scheduling. On p. 22 we read in a footnote:

This date may not coincide with that of the Passover kept by modern-day Jews. Why not? Most Jews today keep the Passover on Nisan 15, believing that the command at Exodus 12:6 points to that date. (See The Watchtower of February 15, 1990, page 14.) But Jesus celebrated it on Nisan 14 in harmony with what was started in the Mosaic Law. For more information on how to calculate this date, see The Watchtower of June 15, 1977, pages 383-384.
Notice here the definitive claim that the Passover Jesus celebrated was indeed celebrated a day earlier than the day observed by "modern-day Jews". When we examine the referenced article from the 1990 Watchtower, we can see the arguments for the reckoning in further detail:
*** w90 2/15 p. 14 pars. 21-22 From Seder to Salvation ***
The Hebrew day ran from sunset (about six o’clock) to the next sunset. God commanded that the Passover lamb be killed on Nisan 14 “between the two evenings.” (Exodus 12:6) When would that be? Modern Jews cling to the rabbinical view that the lamb was to be slaughtered near the end of Nisan 14, between the time when the sun began to descend (about three o’clock) and the actual sunset. As a result, they hold their Seder after sundown, when Nisan 15 has begun.—Mark 1:32.
We have good reason, however, to understand the expression differently. Deuteronomy 16:6 clearly told the Israelites to “slaughter the passover sacrifice, in the evening, at sundown.” (Jewish Tanakh version) This indicates that “between the two evenings” referred to the twilight period, from sunset (which begins Nisan 14) to actual darkness. The ancient Karaite Jews understood it this way, as do Samaritans down to today. Our accepting that the Passover lamb was sacrificed and eaten “at its appointed time” on Nisan 14, not on Nisan 15, is one reason why our Memorial date sometimes differs from the Jewish date.—Numbers 9:2-5.
In addition to the exegetical arguments, the Society also claims ancient support from the attested practices of Karaite Jews and Samaritans. This shows that the reasoning that the Society adopts is not an idiosyncratic position but a line of interpretation that goes back to rabbinical times. The question that concerns us is whether this exegetical tradition makes the best sense of the cited scriptures and whether there is any historical evidence on when Passover was observed in the first century AD.
The position the Society takes is clearly the more problematic one. First of all, the redacted narrative in Exodus 12 presents Yahweh as striking down the firstborn sons in Egypt "on the same night" that the Israelites eat the Passover meal (v. 12), specifically "at midnight" (v. 29), and it was "during the night" when the Egyptians discovered that their children had been struck down and mourned them (v. 30), and it was also "during the night" when Pharaoh told Moses and Aaron to take the Israelites and "hurry and leave the country" (v. 31-33), and so the Israelites promptly left Raameses (v. 37). The Israelites left so quickly they did not have time to prepare the bread (v. 39), for they "left Egypt in haste" (cf. Deuteronomy 16:3). There is no indication that they waited a whole day until the following night. But in Numbers 33:3 we read that "they departed Ramesses in the first month on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow after Passover". If the Passover meal was held early on Nisan 14 (as the Society holds), then the Israelites would not have left right away (as it would have still been Nisan 14). As the Society itself states, if the Passover lambs were slaughtered prior to sunset, "the Passover meal itself would have been eaten in Egypt on Nisan 15 and the Israelites would not have left Egypt until that date" (Watchtower, 15 March 1973, p. 175). Yet that is in fact the date given in Numbers 33:3.
Second, the meanings of "in the evening" (ba`ereb) and "at sundown" (bô' haššamesh) in Deuteronomy 16:6 are not necessarily what the Society assumes. With a day reckoned either from sunset to sunset or as a period of sunlight in contrast to night (as in Genesis 1), the "evening" was often presented as the close of the day (yôm). It is the time when the day's work ends (Genesis 30:16, Judges 19:16, Ruth 2:17, Psalm 104:23), when one may draw water for the night (Genesis 24:11), or set up camp for the night (2 Samuel 11:13, Zephaniah 2:7). Since work is forbidden on the Sabbath, the "evening" here would have to mark the end of the day. Sundown could either refer to the descent of the sun towards the horizon during the afternoon or the descent of the sun across the horizon itself (equivalent to what we refer to as "sunset"). But let's assume for the sake of argument that it refers to sunset. Would the slaughtering of the paschal lamb at sunset occur at the end of the day or at the start of a new day? The Society interprets the phrase as necessarily the latter. But this is not consistent with its usage elsewhere. So for example, we read in Deuteronomy 21:23 that one "must not leave the body hanging on a tree overnight; be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". The removal of bodies from trees at sundown in Joshua 8:29 and 10:27 reflects this provision in D (as does John 19:31). But in both passages we read that Joshua gave the command to remove the corpses "at sundown" (bô' haššamesh) and in 8:29 we further read that the corpses remained on the trees "until evening" (`ad `eth-`ereb). Since the action reflects the law commanding the removal of the bodies "on the same day", the phrase "at sundown" points to a time at the end of the day. In parallel to this, the paschal lambs in Deuteronomy 16:6 would be slaughtered towards the end of Nisan 14, not at the start of the day.
The most difficult phrase is "between the evenings" (bên ha`arbayim) in Exodus 12:6, a wording that sounds particularly obscure in English (and it may also have been an idiom in Hebrew without this literal meaning). But here again usage points rather clearly to a time in the late afternoon at the end of the day. With regard to the Tamid sacrifice, we read in Numbers 28:3-4 that two lambs are to be sacrificed each day, "one lamb in the morning and the other between the evenings (bên ha`arbayim)". In Daniel 8:14, 26, the time of the latter sacrifice is simply "evening" (`ereb). Notice that in Numbers 28, the morning sacrifice is mentioned first followed by the one "between the evenings", and both occur in a single "day" (yôm). Unless the second lamb is killed before sunset, it could not be killed on the same day as the first. Josephus understood the text in the same way, he wrote that the law requires "a one-year-old lamb be killed every day at the beginning and at the ending of the day" (Antiquities, 3.237). Here he uses the Greek word hemeras "day" in its usual sense as the period of daylight from sunrise to sunset (as opposed to nux "night" as the period from sunset to sunrise). The morning sacrifice occurs at the "beginning of the day" and the evening sacrifice occurs "at the ending of the day". Elsewhere Josephus says that the second sacrifice was done in the ninth hour (Antiquitates 14.65), i.e. 3-4pm.
Such an understanding can be found in the LXX translation of the Pentateuch (mid-third century BC); the phrase "between the evenings" (bên ha`arbayim) is rendered "in the afternoon" (to deilinon) in Exodus 29:39-41 LXX. Moreover the earliest explicit commentary on the timing of Passover can be found in Jubilees (mid-second century BC), an early Essene work. There we read that "the children of Israel will be the ones who come and observe Passover on its appointed day on the fourteenth of the first month between the evenings from the third part of the day until the third part of the night because two parts of the day are given for light and one third for evening" and "they shall sacrifice the Passover at evening when the sun is setting on the third part of the day" (49:10, 19). This utilizes an Essene division of the day into three segments (6am-10am, 10am-2pm, 2pm-6pm), the third of which is set aside for "evening", and the night similarly divides into three parts (6pm-10pm, 10pm-2am, 2am-6am). This passage clearly states that the Passover begins "from the third part of the day", with the sacrifice occurring "at evening when the sun is setting on the third part of the day". This puts the sacrifice towards the end of the day between 2pm and 6pm, probably close to sunset "at evening" when the work for the day is done. Passover is thus observed from then until 2am on Nisan 15.
Of course, the Essenes were not in charge of the Temple, and neither were the Pharisees (the forebears of the rabbis authoritative to modern Judaism) nor the Samaritans. The Karaites did not even exist yet. Now it is true that the Samaritans and the Karaites may preserve older exegetical interpretations and practices, such as the reckoning of Shavuot (Pentecost), which disagrees with the view in rabbinical Judaism but agrees with the ancient reckoning of the Essenes. Here the Essene view in Jubilees disagrees with that of the Karaites and Samaritans. It does however agree with what Josephus wrote about the actual reckoning of Passover in the first century AD. He wrote that the high priests, "upon the coming of their feast which is called Passover, slay their sacrifices from the ninth hour till the eleventh" (Bellum Judaicum, 6.423). The "ninth hour" begins at 3pm (cf. Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33-34, Luke 23:44) and the "eleventh hour" begins at 5pm. This shows that when Passover was observed at the Temple in the first century AD, the paschal lambs were indeed slaughtered in the afternoon at the end of Nisan 14, between 3pm and 5pm, and not early on Nisan 14 just after sundown as claimed by the Society. This testimony shows that the interpretation favoured by the Society does not likely represent the actual reckoning of Passover in Jerusalem in the first century AD.







thetrueone....Yes, that passage is simple and clear. Now if we look at the chart in the February 1, 2011 Watchtower, we can see that the events of Mark 14:12 are dated to Nisan 13. Yet that passage dates the Passover preparations to "the first day of unfermented cakes, when they customarily sacrificed the passover [lambs]". And the article on the "Passover" in the Insight book (Vol. 2, p. 581-583) tries to argue rather confusingly that the day before Passover could be the date in question by claiming that "on the first day of unfermented cakes" really means "on the day before unfermented cakes" (but why should this be Nisan 13 instead of Nisan 14, the actual day before the traditional first day of the festival of unfermented bread), yet they acknowledge that it was Nisan 14 on which the passover lamb was slain (Vol. 1, p. 592), which pretty much rules out Nisan 13 if it was the same day.
jwfacts....The dates may coincide, I think, because the Society uses a different method of determining the date of the full moon. "

FadeToBlack
FadeToBlack 12 days ago
I'm just happy that I won't be there (whatever day they pick).

 +6 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 12 days ago

Who cares really?!
Such a silly, worthless, time wasting, meaningless and repetitive ritual each year. Sick and tired of it already. A holy hiccup in the middle of my week. Is he not a glorious king in heaven now? Why is he not solving our issues down here already? It is all man made up bs.
What is more important is where are we going to eat and hang out afterwards?
Amen and pass the biscuits.😜
DY
 +3 / -1
bennyk
bennyk 12 days ago

Contra the old goat's link--
Because the first new moon after the vernal equinox is 09. April, the Watch Tower Society should be observing the Memorial after sunset on 22. April. (According the 1959 publication Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose [p.24]):
Since the arrangement Jesus made was to be a memorial of his death, it should properly be celebrated on the exact day of the year that he died, the true Passover date of the Jews. This would be Abib or Nisan 14. Their Nisan begins with the nearest new moon after the spring equinox as determined in Palestine .

Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 11 days ago




 +3 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 11 days ago
As a DF'd fully awake x-j dub I'm thinking of going to my old hall this year for the memorial. I'm gonna dress in street clothes, (I have a beard), and partake just to see the faces. haha
 +4 / -0
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 11 days ago

The WT has it right (of course) so STFU and ignore ALL other resources and authorities on this subject!
just saying!
eyeuse2badub

Phizzy
Phizzy 11 days ago

How can anyone have it right ever, I ask ?
When you consider that the Gospels do not agree on when Jesus died, surely no one can know for sure when he had his Last Supper , or even his last Big Mac and Cheese ?

Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 11 days ago

''When you consider that the Gospels do not agree on when Jesus died, surely no one can know for sure when he had his Last Supper , or even his last Big Mac and Cheese ?''
Here's the thing, I don't think anybody really knows, that's the reality. They just see that the first full moon is immediately after the Spring equinox and they choose that. But, mmm Big Macs!!!
 +1 / -0
Scully
Scully 11 days ago

WT's way of determining the date for The Memorial™ has always been
the first full moon following the spring equinox
The spring equinox is usually around March 20-21, and from there they decide when the full moon will be visible over Jerusalem. Sometimes it coincides with Passover or Easter, but often times it doesn't. 
Nisan 14 in 2016 falls on April 22. I wonder how the average JW would reconcile that discrepancy?
 +2 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 11 days ago

''Nisan 14 in 2016 falls on April 22. I wonder how the average JW would reconcile that discrepancy?''
They couldn't. They would just get a puzzled look on their face, offer a tract and scurry away.
 +2 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 11 days ago

Almost impossible, but could it be better than 2015 edition?





 +1 / -0
St George of England
St George of England 11 days ago

If you check the Memorial outline you will see that:
◦ Nisan is NEVER MENTIONED
◦The Exodus is NEVER MENTIONED
◦Passover is NEVER MENTIONED
This meeting has become just about Jesus, the new covenant and why you should not partake of the emblems. Potentially embarrassing questions about lunar calculations have been forgotten.
George
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
the memorial is on march 23 this year.
but all the official jewish calendars has nissan 14 as april 22!
april 22 is the start of passover!



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A frothy question ABOUT DEMONS
by Terry 13 days ago 18 Replies latest 11 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 13 days ago



Have you ever been to a Circus and seen a "Clown Car"?
The little "bug" Volkswagon drives out and clowns get out. Lots and lots and lots and lots of Clowns!
Do you have that image in your mind?
Okay--why is it in the New Testament a Legion of demons cram into one person?
5,000 men made up a Roman Legion!

1. Why so many (5000?) clown demons packed into one demon-possessed person?
2. What size is a demon, anyway?
3. Is it comfortable to be crammed into some idiot?
4. When Jesus "cast out" the demons into the herd of swine . . . the swine drowned in the sea. Now what? Were they trapped under water?
Can demons swim? Do demons have to "fit" into any life form? Do they get stuck?



So, you see--I have too much time on my hands. However, if we're supposed to take these things seriously, shouldn't they make some kind of real sense?
___________________________



Yes, I must confess, these are actually rhetorical questions.
I do like to QUESTION the basic premise of things we have swallowed whole (gulping down the camel, so to speak.)

If you read the entire Hebrew Bible you don't find Satan described as the sort of demon found regularly in the Christian Bible. I mean, Satan was STILL IN HEAVEN and not Disfellowshipped by Jehovah. So, something is awry here . . .
As an afterthought, I'll add one last tiny query.
"Why bother destroying wicked mankind in the days of Noah and then NOT having a Day of Judgment immediately afterward?
Isn't that stupid? By allowing humans to continue to breed sinful offspring, inevitably the world is right back where it was before the flood.
Why have TWO ARMAGEDDONS?
The flood was BEFORE the law of Moses. Mankind had NOT been condemned by the Law, so there was no need for Jesus to live up to and fulfill the law.
Seems screwy to me--but what do I know? I'm no Theologian.



 +4 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 13 days ago
Why have 2 Armageddons. Simple. Its a control tactic JWs use for fear and obedience!!!!!
 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 13 days ago

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-similarities-between-the-biblical-story-of-Samson-and-the-Greek-myth-of-Heracles
A man wants to have sex with his wife after returning from a long trip away from home.
His father-in-law tells him something which enrages this returned husband.
The family had thought he wasn't coming back and had deserted the wife. As a consequence, she had been given to
another man: a Philistine!
This triggers an unprecedented rage in the sociopath husband.
The stage has been set for what he considers "payback."
JUDGES CHAPTER 15:
14 When he came to Le′hi, the Phi·lis′tines shouted triumphantly at meeting him. Then Jehovah’s spirit empowered him,+ and the ropes on his arms became like linen threads that were scorched with fire, and his fetters melted off his hands.+ 15 He now found a fresh jawbone of a male donkey; he reached out and grabbed it and struck down 1,000 men with it.+ 16 Then Samson said: “With the jawbone of a donkey—one heap, two heaps! With the jawbone of a donkey I struck down 1,000 men.”+
(NWT @ JW.org)
_____________________________
Who in their right mind would regard this account as even minimally feasible?
Bruce Lee took on a dozen men (who were courteous enough to attack him by one's and two's) and defeated them in his Chinese films.
But, armed Philistines numbering 1,000 could not have been defeated even if they had lined
up to be killed (which they wouldn't have done.)
___________________________________
Isn't this incredible biographical account of Samson really a thin plagiarism of the Labors of Hercules?

Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 13 days ago

Hi Terry,
I like the clown car analogy. I never thought that demonic possession could be funny but there you go.
Image result for clown car exit simpsons

I wonder if L Ron Hubbard's Scientology doctrine of Body Thetans has its origins in the Biblical account? Supposedly you can have thousands of infestations at once.
It certainly is something that Horror films have used on many occasions. When the devout exorcist asks the person possessed what the name is of the demon possessing them, I have heard the response on more than one film or tv show: "We are legion." I think its sort of a cool horror idea.
Practically though how do the demons work together? Do they cooperate like a hive mind or does one demon get the left ear, another the right foot and yet another the pancreas and so on?
Deep matters to consider.

Terry
Terry 13 days ago

There is a line in the play/film INHERIT THE WIND where the evangelist who is testifying as an expert on the Bible is asked a series of practical questions about Bible stories which the theologian is unable to answer.
The Bible expert says, "I don't think about those things."
The defense attorney replies, "Do you ever think about the things you DO think about?"
_________________
I think this applies to all the silly, illogical, irrational, nonsensical things we TOTALLY ACCEPTED as true when we were J-Dubs.
Why don't we give ourselves permission to ask common sense questions and then
come to accept the fact they are UNanswerable with common sense answers.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 13 days ago

Those ancient Hebrews sure could bullshit couldn't they, particularly when they wanted to create power and relevance to their god or a person of their select tribe ?
 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 13 days ago

Since demons are basically just angels with a bad attitude, I think the theological debating of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' might give valuable clues...
Ehh, sorry, had some nice Belgian beers. What was the question again? :-D

 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 13 days ago
I've participated in belchin' beers myself!

Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 13 days ago

How many demons can dance on the head of a pin? No clue.
But it could be that what demons need to experience the thrills/lusts/release of anxiety etc. is a body...aligned with a willing mind, at least initially.

respectful_observer
respectful_observer 13 days ago

Why have TWO ARMAGEDDONS?
Don't forget the third one...after the end of the 1,000 year reign in the "Paradise". Gotta take care of those headband-wearing hippies once and for all.



 +1 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 13 days ago

My question is - Who Counted?
And why is it always a round number?
Do Demons only come in groups of a 1000?


 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 12 days ago


Terry - "Why don't we give ourselves permission to ask common sense questions, and then
come to accept the fact they are UNanswerable with common sense answers."
I think the subconscious mind realizes that the more common-sense questions get asked about beliefs, the more unbelievable it makes them.
Just realizing that should be a major red flag, IMO.

rebel8
rebel8 12 days ago

"How big is a demon," is a legit question.
If we are to believe Hollywood, being possessed by a single demon is quite exhausting. The demon runs your life, decides what you do, where you are, what you say, etc.
Did all the demons in a single person suddenly develop a hive mind and work together?
If not, wouldn't the person's brain or body be literally torn apart? What if one demon wanted the left arm to stab someone and another demon turned around and ran in the other direction, ripping the arm off? Would the left arm remain there mid-air, detached, stabby, and still demonized?





 +1 / -0
20yearfader
20yearfader 12 days ago
lol terry the bible should be read while drinking a good brandy one of the best fantasy books ever written

Vidiot
Vidiot 12 days ago

@ 20yearfader...
F**k that shit. Just read Revelation...
x
...while on peyote. :smirk:

millie210
millie210 12 days ago

Terry you came up with things I never even thought of!
Wasnt there a scripture where someone said my name is Legion?"

Terry
Terry 12 days ago

Mark's text at 5:13 may give a more precise hint at the number of demons in this particular "Legion" since in this verse the Gospel writer tells us that the herd of pigs into which Jesus sent the demons numbered about 2,000.
But to really nitpick. . .
if all those demons could fit into one person, more than one demon could crowd into a pig. It is mentally exhausting to apply common everyday logic to such insanities with a straight face, however.




eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 12 days ago

Them demons are a very pliable, flexible, and expandable creatures. In one part of the bible they are 'man sized' and banging the good looking women of the earth. In another part of the bible 2,000 can squeeze into one man. Wow! They are amazing!
just saying!
eyeuse2badub

Terry
Terry 11 days ago

I think you've hit the nail on it's head, eyeuse2badub!
A WORD THAT CAN MEAN ANYTHING means nothing.
 +0 / -1

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