Jehovah's-Witness . com forum discussions

Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My Visits To Church
/  





 

My Visits To Church
by serotonin_wraith 8 years ago 40 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Why would an atheist go to church? To seek out a god?
No more than a historian seeks out Ra or Hathor by researching Egyptian religions.
Those religions are dead now. The modern ones can still be researched, without searching for a god. Just for research sake. In my case it helps with my arguments against religion, and I think it's just an interesting subject to begin with.
So, I went to a baptist one. I was even offered a bunch of DVDs and a booklet on creationism from the pastor, but when I looked at them, pointed out the mistakes and offered a whole lot of proof for evolution, no one could give me an answer. So much for that.
I wrote up a more thorough 'review' of a Mormon service, which is here if anyone's interested: http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4bcsa
I think I'll do more of this kind of thing. Instead of debating the same old points over and over in forums with closed minded people, I've decided for now to take the current atheist v theist culture war into the churches themselves to talk with anyone who feels they want to discuss these things. No pressure, no shouting, no anger. Just calm discussions with every day people.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 8 years ago

There are good reasons for an atheist or Devil worshiper to visit a church (and not to blow it up, either). First, one can enjoy the artwork on its own merits without having to believe in what it is supposed to represent. Many people visit churches for that reason alone, especially historic ones. Even some modern churches can be quite spectacular places to visit, even if one does not believe in the teachings.
Second, one can check out the beliefs for research purposes alone. And what does this church have to offer society? Some churches do take an active role in cutting crime, helping people in need, and stimulating people in positive ways. They sometimes have social clubs that use their facilities. And sometimes the churches themselves are as much social clubs as they are a belief system. Many Protestant denominations get involved in society in this way, and even some Catholic churches will set up social programs.
Finally, one can visit a church that one does not believe in for the simple reason that it will be a slap in Jehovah's face. Once you visit another church, or attend one of their services, you have made a step away from the Watchtower Society. There is rarely an obligation (or hounding sessions) to join. The Catholic churches, and most Protestant denominations, are safe in this way (though I would research anything that you are not familiar with, due to the number of cults and scams that could well be started).
 
Sad emo
Sad emo 8 years ago

Sero - get yourself enrolled on an Alpha course, you could cause havoc on one of those and (should) get a good, free feed into the bargain!
http://uk.alpha.org/findacourse
They do say you can ask no holds barred questions...
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Thanks sad emo, that's the kind of thing I need. As much as I don't agree with church teachings, people still have the right to go along and listen to the myths in peace. After watching some Ken Ham DVDs with them one time (ugh...) I could have stood up and said 'You do know this man is just lying through his teeth about there being no transitional forms... you do know that if billions of creatures had suddenly died in the flood and formed most of the fossils we see today, there shouldn't be a natural progression of life forms getting simpler (less evolved) the further down the rock you go, it should all be mixed up.' But I didn't do that.
However, when asked by some about what I thought of what I'd seen and the arguments for creationism, well I went right into it on a more individual basis, showing how it wasn't convincing to someone who had done the research.
If I can go straight into that kind of thing on the Alpha course, much better. I'll look into joining one.
 
real one
real one 8 years ago

boy i tell you i cant wait for the day to see some of your faces! if God allows me to
 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago


So, I went to a baptist one. I was even offered a bunch of DVDs and a booklet on creationism from the pastor, but when I looked at them, pointed out the mistakes and offered a whole lot of proof for evolution, no one could give me an answer. So much for that.
I'm surprised any church would focus on creationism as a point of introduction, and if they do, they should be able to back it up. I'd say you picked a poor representative. This doesn't support any point you would be trying to make in favor of atheism against Christianity, if that's part of your objective, any more than a particular atheist losing a debate to a particular Christian proves Christianity.
You will meet Christians who think all atheists are simply ignorant, and I'm glad you will dispel that myth. Meanwhile, there are plenty of rational, educated Christians out there who know that is not true, and who would be willing and able to discuss the issues with you. I hope you meet some.
BTW, "close-mindedness" isn't confined to Christians.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

hmike,
The creationism stuff was just going on at the time I visited, it wasn't for any newcomers. I had no idea what they were going to be talking about when I sat in the first time.
The pastor made the point that if the Genesis account couldn't be believed, what else in the Bible could. I said I agreed. My own opinion is that evolution shows that there was death and suffering before man came on the scene, so it takes away the notion of a fallen world, original sin and therefore the whole point of Jesus' sacrifice. It's something I've gone into in more detail before so I'm not looking to start a big debate about it here. Not because I'm close minded, I just don't think I could add much more to my thoughts on the subject anyway, which are all here-

http://www.sendspace.com/file/yex57k
I'll always listen to what 'the other side' has to say if anyone thinks it's completely wrong, but it looks pretty solid to me so that's what I'm going with for now.

 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago

Will you keep us updated on your investigation?
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Sure. The Alpha course doesn't start until September in most places here, so that'll have to wait for now. In the meantime I'll probably attend some other churches and write up reviews of them from my own atheist perspective.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

I've been to Baptist churches a few times. They are big on the Creationism.
I will visit from time to time, but the Baptist denomination is not a home for me.
Burn
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Those religions are dead now. The modern ones can still be researched, without searching for a god.
Why won't you search for a god? Why do you close that inquiry off? Billions of people have found something along that line of inquiry. Are you so closed minded?
I think I'll do more of this kind of thing. Instead of debating the same old points over and over in forums with closed minded people
I got your PM today. You are the one that's closed minded, it seems to me. You repeat the same thing over and over again like your brain is stuck in a closed loop.
YHWH=Thor=Zeus=Ra=Hathor.
Over and over again.


 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Why don't you go to the bottom of the garden and search for faries?
Because there is no good reason for believing in faries in the first place.
I'm open to faries being real, as I am to a god being real. But with just as much reason for believing in either, I don't go 'searching' for it. The reason I lump all the different gods together is because there is no more reason to believe in one over another. If there were, everyone would believe in one god.
If I really were close minded, I wouldn't answer challenges to my atheism. I do go out of my way to try and answer every point, such as 'How did humans get here?' 'Where do you get your morals from?' 'What have you got to lose by believing?' I go through it all, but I've found that even after giving the answers, there'll be another question to try and stumble me, rather than people saying 'Yes, that's not a good reason to believe in a god, I won't use that one again with anyone, otherwise it would be like trying to trick them.'
On the other hand, even after going over this with people, I hear a very close minded statement most of the time from them. "Well okay, even if there is no good reason to believe in a god, I have faith and that's that." The ultimate form of close mindedness is when no information can make any difference to your beliefs. My beliefs are open to change, and if someone ever provides a good reason for believing in a god, I will. It's as simple as that.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

"Well okay, even if there is no good reason to believe in a god, I have faith and that's that." The ultimate form of close mindedness is when no information can make any difference to your beliefs. My beliefs are open to change, and if someone ever provides a good reason for believing in a god, I will. It's as simple as that.
Belief in a Deity(s) is natural and reasonable. You don't have to believe, but you have no grounds to assert that it is unreasonable.
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html
Oh, and who said I don't believe in fairies?
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

To hold a reasonable position, one needs good reasons.
I have yet to hear one.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

To hold a reasonable position, one needs good reasons.
I have heard many. Plantinga as I linked earlier is an excellent start. Here is an essay of his. I recommend it to you, not to convert you, but so that you understand.
Convince me there is no God, against my strongest rooted intuitions and passions, and I will join you. Show me that my life will be better, that you will replace what I hold close with something that will ennoble me, will make me more godlike than I am, and I will embrace your nothingness. Convince me. But don't insult my intelligence.
Burn
 
Zico
Zico 8 years ago

Preaching in the Churches? You're like a modern day Apostle Paul! :smile:
Are you intending to go to any non-Christian temples/synagogues? You might find it interesting to converse with some Muslims/Jews/Buddhists etc...
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Are you intending to go to any non-Christian temples/synagogues? You might find it interesting to converse with some Muslims/Jews/Buddhists etc...
I doubt it. The subject here is "familiar" with Christianity. Familiarity breeds contempt apparently. He would rather flog a weakening religion in his country than face a growing foreign virulent one. I doubt he will be visiting any mosques soon. Allah's boys don't listen so politely. :wink:
The apostle Paul at least put his money where his mouth was-and paid the ultimate price.
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

I'll go over the essay in a day or two for you. I'm resisting full on detailed debates online at the moment because I need a rest from it. My post history is full of them anyhow.
You want me to prove a negative. It can't be done. Russel's teapot, the flying spaghetti monster, things like that cannot be disproven either, but that's no support to believing in them.
It isn't my job to pack you up in cotton wool because you're afraid of death. You shouldn't believe things because they make you feel better. If you're poor is it better to fool yourself into thinking you're rich, or to deal with the problem of making ends meet? As comforting as the lie would be, it's not a reasonable position to hold.
You seem to have a very negative view of this life. Why can't you find joy, peace, fulfillment etc here on planet Earth, instead of waiting for it in some future afterlife there's no reason to believe in? You said before that you wouldn't like it if we were born simply to die. That's a horrible way to look at things. We're born so that we may live. So live. You're damn lucky to be here in the first place. It amazes me that there had to be a CONTINUOUS chain of life stretching back over BILLIONS of years on a planet where 99% of all species have gone extinct and countless sperm and eggs don't get to create life so that you could be here now, complaining that if you don't get to live forever, your life is pretty much pointless.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Zico,
I've only been to three so far, (Mormons, Salvation Army and Baptist are quite diverse to start with!) but I will be researching other places of worship. I just have to travel out of my way to reach them as I'm in a more Christian area. The majority of Muslims are peaceful, so I can't see a problem if we get talking about our differences of opinion. Like I said, I'm discussing the issues with PEOPLE WHO WANT TO, not standing up and shouting over their services and forcing my side.
 
Sirona
Sirona 8 years ago

Why would an atheist go to church? To seek out a god?
No more than a historian seeks out Ra or Hathor by researching Egyptian religions.
OR an atheist could seek out Ra or Hathor.
Those religions are dead now.
Oh no they're not!
Sirona
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth a month ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/155845/my-visits-church






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My Visits To Church
/  





 

My Visits To Church
by serotonin_wraith 8 years ago 40 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

You want me to prove a negative. It can't be done. Russel's teapot, the flying spaghetti monster, things like that cannot be disproven either, but that's no support to believing in them.
I don't believe in Russell's teapot, or FSM, so why do you keep bringing them up? :smile:
It isn't my job to pack you up in cotton wool because you're afraid of death. You shouldn't believe things because they make you feel better. If you're poor is it better to fool yourself into thinking you're rich, or to deal with the problem of making ends meet? As comforting as the lie would be, it's not a reasonable position to hold.
You certainly seem to have made something your job, as your militant atheist life demonstrates. Why, you have dropped behind enemy lines at the Baptist church! That's pretty admirable. I am not afraid of death anymore. I look forward to it, I just want to get a few things done in the world first. :smile: As I've said, belief in God is reasonable. I will let you read up a bit before we discuss that.
You seem to have a very negative view of this life. Why can't you find joy, peace, fulfillment etc here on planet Earth, instead of waiting for it in some future afterlife there's no reason to believe in?
The Universe is not big enough for me. If it is random and without meaning, then it is nothing more than a prison for my spirit, so it cannot be random and meaningless.
You said before that you wouldn't like it if we were born simply to die. That's a horrible way to look at things. We're born so that we may live. So live.
A Universe without meaning has little value, and life for it's own sake has little value! I LIVE. I am--and I always will be. I am ALIVE. More than you are-because my life will not end, whereas you yourself are nothing more than an ingenious collection of molecules.
You are the one that believes we are born simply to die. How can you believe otherwise in a cold uncaring random and meaningless Universe? To assert a deeper meaning is an act of faith.
You're damn lucky to be here in the first place. It amazes me that there had to be a CONTINUOUS chain of life stretching back over BILLIONS of years on a planet where 99% of all species have gone extinct and countless sperm and eggs don't get to create life so that you could be here now, complaining that if you don't get to live forever, your life is pretty much pointless
I wouldn't call any of that luck....
I am here because I needed to be here.
So, no, there is a point.
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

I know you don't believe in the teapot etc. Even though they can't be disproven, you still don't believe in them. You can see that it would be crazy. So why say 'well you can't disprove God!'? It's such a bad argument.
Lol militant. Yeah, words which nobody's forced to look at. Very militant.
You're not afraid of death from planet Earth, but I do think you're afraid of ceasing to exist completely.
You can make your own meaning in life. Spirit - no reason to believe you have one.


A Universe without meaning has little value, and life for it's own sake has little value!
Ungrateful.


I am ALIVE. More than you are-because my life will not end
Arrogant.
You are the one that believes we are born simply to die. How can you believe otherwise in a cold uncaring random and meaningless Universe? To assert a deeper meaning is an act of faith.
My meaning is personal and comes from within myself. It's not faith to think I like eating cheese on toast, so why is it faith to know of other ways I want to enjoy this life?
We do die, but not before living. If I did think death was the only point, I'd hardly be trying to sustain a durable future for our species, would I? It's the journey that matters, not the destination.



I wouldn't call any of that luck....

I am here because I needed to be here.
Visions of grandeur and a bloated self ego.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Thinking about it, you say life just for life's sake has little value, yet you're happy about living forever. Won't that just be an eternity of low value existence?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Lol militant. Yeah, words which nobody's forced to look at. Very militant.
You are the one going to churches to expound your philosophy. That is arrogant. That is militant. No that is fanatical. You go in to prey on the sheep. One day you will find a ram there. There are BurnTheShips everywhere. :wink:
Scratch that, one day you will meet the Shephard of the flock.
Ungrateful.
Ungrateful? To who? There is no one out there to be grateful to remember? How can I be grateful to chance and deterministic necessity?
My meaning is personal and comes from within myself. It's not faith to think I like eating cheese on toast, so why is it faith to know of other ways I want to enjoy this life?
My meaning is Personal also, and comes from within a Voice that speaks in me. As for you it is a cold hearless uncaring universe. You are just an accident, remember? You will die, and there will be nothing when the molecules disassociate. Very soon even the memory of you will fade. It will be as if you never existed.
Visions of grandeur and a bloated self ego.
I am. I will be.
What I do in this life will echo in eternity.
That is a LIFE.
Burn
 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago

Hey Serotonin and Burn,
I'm getting way off the original topic here, but you both have been discussing perspectives on life and death, and since you are both "here" and represent different perspectives, this might be a good time to ask about something I've wondered...
In the New Testament, and especially the books of Luke and Matthew, we see the future Kingdom of God as the equalizer for this life.
• Jesus says to his disciples, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God" (Luke 6:20), and also, "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort" (6:24).
• Jesus tells the story of the rich man, who lived in luxury, and went to torment when he died, and Lazarus, who lived in utter poverty, but went to Paradise when he died. Abraham says to the rich man, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." (Luke 16:19-31)
There are many other statements, all saying to the Israelites something like, "For those who are poor, disadvantaged, miserable, enslaved, and abused in this life, great things await in the coming Kingdom. But if you're insulated from misery, well-fed and living in luxury and comfort in this life, that's your only good time because in the future, you'll be left out of the Kingdom in misery and torment." So to those who are wealthy, Jesus advises them to voluntarily adopt the perspective of the poor, or maybe even literally become poor if that's what it takes. The idea is that this life is relatively short and conditions are temporary—the everlasting future is more important—better to have it rough now and wonderful later than the other way around.
In the society of this time, the message that there was a new world coming was "good news" to the poor and outcast. Good times were ahead. This was something to look forward to—something that made the misery and trouble of this life tolerable, and even something to embrace. That was the appeal of the gospel of the Kingdom, and it was welcomed by people in this kind of life situation. On the other hand, in Luke's book, Jesus says it is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God (18:24). The indication seems to be that the appeal of wealth and comfort is a hindrance, even a barrier, to entering the Kingdom.
Now look at the life most of us in the industrialized countries have. We have food, housing, entertainment, heating and air conditioning, running water, sanitation, 40-hour work weeks, medicines and health care, government aid, etc. Even on the lower end of the economic scale, we live better, longer, and more comfortably than the best did back then. We are far more than wealthy by standards of that time.
This leads to my questions regarding perspectives on life and death:
Does living in these privileged conditions dull the appeal of the gospel for a better future?
Are we like the wealthy of the time of Jesus, enjoying a heaven on earth?
Are those with a good, satisfying life now simply not interested in a good future life?
Is the prospect of creating a world without hunger, homelessness, crime, and a world with love, peace, and unconditional acceptance, and high quality of life for long lifespans replacing the gospel of the Kingdom? (In other words, does this gospel simply represent a need or dream which can be realized by people without God?)
It seems to me that in our relatively affluent society, churches are placing more emphasis on what faith can do now, in this life, than what it can bring in the future.
Anyone who wants can answer this.
Serotonin, I hope you don't mind. We'll eventually get your thread back on track.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

You are the one going to churches to expound your philosophy. That is arrogant. That is militant. No that is fanatical. You go in to prey on the sheep. One day you will find a ram there. There are BurnTheShips everywhere. :wink:
Again, atheism is not a philosophy.
Can I ask what's wrong with talking about religion with people who want to talk about it? It's no different to going to a religious forum, explaining my position and chatting with people about it. I take it you don't have a problem when people try to spread the message of Jesus? I don't either by the way, because I can either say 'no thanks' or I can talk about it with them. It's my choice. Why the double standard?
Is it also fanatical to talk with people about who the next president should be, or the best way to eat healthily? Hardly. Religion is just another topic where opinion is different. If people's faith is strong, why be afraid to hear my side? They could show me I'm wrong by giving me their good reasons. Perhaps I'll be converted.
Why does your god need defending from me? Why do you want to shut off the communication between believer and non believer? What are you afraid of? Much of this betrays what I feel is insecurity on your part, although I know in advance you will probably deny this. Someone in a strong position shouldn't be afraid of hearing an opposing view. I'm not.

Yes, ungrateful. Not satisfied. Not with a person, but with the situation.
As for you it is a cold hearless uncaring universe. You are just an accident, remember? You will die, and there will be nothing when the molecules disassociate. Very soon even the memory of you will fade. It will be as if you never existed.
Let's say this is the case. Is it wrong because it doesn't sound very nice? No.
The point is that even in a 'cold heartless universe', here I am with the chance to experience something which may not even exist elsewhere in the universe- life. With all the millions of planets which support no life, this only helps show that I should be grateful (to the situation) to be here at all. My life isn't cold and hard. That's the important thing, not the lifeless universe above our atmosphere.
Perhaps nobody will remember me when I die. Is it wrong because it doesn't sound very nice? No. Much of what you say talks about this. 'Your position must be wrong because it doesn't appeal to me.' Not a good argument. This is about what's real, not about what people want to be real. The slice of life you're living now is what matters, not what some future life will think of you. I hope they'll be off enjoying their life instead of wasting it looking you or me up.

I am. I will be.
What I do in this life will echo in eternity.
That is a LIFE.
Burn
Close. Remove the capital F.
How will the universe get by without knowledge of your existence in the future? I really feel for them. Keep posting, write books, make music. Their lives won't be complete unless they know Burn existed at some point in their past!
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

hmike,
I can see how it could be appealing to look forward to a better afterlife if the current life isn't of a high standard. Even if I were starving in Africa, riddled with disease, most of my family had died and things were unbearable, I may think 'well, this is a bit shit' but I STILL couldn't make myself believe in something, just because it gave me comfort. To me, it's just wishful thinking.
I get the sense that many people 'find God' when they're going through a rough patch. They lose their legs in an accident, their child dies, etc. 'Look at all this suffering' people say, 'I'm looking forward to a time when Jesus steps in and helps us.' I agree when you say better lives on Earth are replacing the need for god belief. That doesn't apply to me, although I cannot be sure of my thoughts if I'd been born in a poorer country.
Apart from America, I think it's right to conclude that the poorer countries have the most believers ( I include other religions here) and the countries better off are more likely to have a more secular outlook.
I do hope this 'new world' created by humans replaces the desire to have a god do it. Religious people can do much good, yet religion isn't needed. We don't need to read 'Love thy neighbour and God will be pleased' in order to go and help Africans build wells. We can do it for the sake of helping our fellow humans. Some religions can even prevent this. The JWs only look after their own because they don't think it is within man's power to solve the world's problems. They believe this so much, they don't even want to try.
 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago

We don't need to read 'Love thy neighbour and God will be pleased' in order to go and help Africans build wells. We can do it for the sake of helping our fellow humans.
I wonder, "Would we?"
It would be interesting to see what would have happened in history, and what the world would be like if Christianity were totally absent. We'd lose the bad, but we'd also lose the good. What if the positive influences of Christianity were removed from the non-Christian world? Even if beneficial things aren't the direct result of Christianity, it still has influenced the consciousness of Western society.
Many of us know where we'd be without faith, and we wouldn't be helping our fellow humans.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago


I wonder, "Would we?"
It would be interesting to see what would have happened in history, and what the world would be like if Christianity were totally absent. We'd lose the bad, but we'd also lose the good. What if the positive influences of Christianity were removed from the non-Christian world? Even if beneficial things aren't the direct result of Christianity, it still has influenced the consciousness of Western society.
Many of us know where we'd be without faith, and we wouldn't be helping our fellow humans.

We have remarked before that the parasites which live in the intestines of higher animals, feeding upon the nutritive juices which these animals supply, do not need either to see or hear, and therefore for them the visible and audible world does not exist. And if they possessed a certain degree of consciousness and took account of the fact that the animal at whose expense they live believed in a world of sight and hearing, they would perhaps deem such belief to be due merely to the extravagance of its imagination. And similarly there are social parasites, as Mr. A.J. Balfour admirably observes,[10] who, receiving from the society in which they live the motives of their moral conduct, deny that belief in God and the other life is a necessary foundation for good conduct and for a tolerable life, society having prepared for them the spiritual nutriment by which they live. An isolated individual can endure life and live it well and even heroically without in any sort believing either in the immortality of the soul or in God, but he lives the life of a spiritual parasite.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

hmike,
I was thinking about going into more detail about this, but there's really no need. It can all be summed up in one word. Japan.
I can elaborate if you like, but I don't think there's any need.
If someone won't help other humans without their faith, that's one thing. Their choice. If they try to cause suffering or let suffering happen without intervening, then they are not truly moral to begin with. If the only reason someone wouldn't hurt others was because he or she thought that would please their god, then they are extremely dangerous people.
BTS,
I only have one question. A yes or no answer is all that is needed.
If you did not believe in a god, would you hurt others?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

If you did not believe in a god, would you hurt others?
That person would not be who I am, so I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine.
Read my Unamuno quote above.
Upon whose cost doth thou feed.
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

You don't know? Why not? Afterall, what's to think about? Morality comes from religion, right? Without that, you would obviously turn evil. There couldn't possibly be another reason to stop you.
Could there?

Edit: Sorry, I can't be bothered with the moral argument again. BTS, we've been over this before. You ended up not being able to respond.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/144503/1.ashx
I can't see any point in repeating myself. I think this is why debating got to be a headache for me. If you're going to act deliberately blind to what I say, keep reading over my previous posts and pretend they're new ones. It's essentially the same thing.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago


You don't know? Why not? Afterall, what's to think about? Morality comes from religion, right? Without that, you would obviously turn evil. There couldn't possibly be another reason to stop you.
Could there?
On this thread I never said that about morality. Read my post above. Read my quote from Miguel Unamunos The Tragic Life. You can be an unbeliever and be moral, even heroic. What I did say is that an unbelieving BTS would be a radically different person than the one here "before" you. So would the other BTS be be good or evil? I don't know. This BTS here is evil.
That is your answer.
You brought up the moral argument:
We don't need to read 'Love thy neighbour and God will be pleased' in order to go and help Africans build wells.
Of course not. We don't need a religious foundation to do good. But where are the Atheist missions? Where are the Atheist orgs in Africa building wells? I can't think of one. Google "Christian Aid Africa" or "Christian Mission Africa". Here's a few of the hits:



Christ Cares Childrens Home
a caring and rehabilitation centre for orphans and needy children from the streets and poor families in Kajiado District in Kenya











Orphanages for Africa (OFA)
a Christian multinational charity which offers humanitarian and development assistance to Africans caring for orphans.
Hope for Africa IntermationalA Christian Charitable Organisation providing humanitarian and social services to Orphans and Vulnerable Children in Africa through Community Schools. We, through Church links program, provide spiritual support to families in crisis and other need groups.
Sponsoring African Children in Kenya Africa Christian CharityThe mission of Pamoja Child Trust, Inc. is to promote, sponsor, and assist Kenyans in developing programs that would optimize the physical, emotional, spiritual, mental and social well being of children.


I can't see any point in repeating myself. I think this is why debating got to be a headache for me. If you're going to act deliberately blind to what I say, keep reading over my previous posts and pretend they're new ones. It's essentially the same thing.
LOL. You cuntpaste the link to one of my first convos with a militant antitheist and use that to end the discussion? Look at my post count there. I've evolved sero.
You haven't even addressed my previous two comments properly. What morality you possess you have, in part, learned from your culture and Christian heritage. At least give credit where due.
Ungrateful.
Have a good one Zero.
BurnTheShips.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Don't even ask me about the formatting above. I have no idea.
I try to fix it and it gets worse.
I hope its legible.
Burn
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago


Edit: Sorry, I can't be bothered with the moral argument again. BTS, we've been over this before. You ended up not being able to respond.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/144503/1.ashx
I can't see any point in repeating myself. I think this is why debating got to be a headache for me. If you're going to act deliberately blind to what I say, keep reading over my previous posts and pretend they're new ones. It's essentially the same thing.
I'm back at the trough again! :smile:
I read the thread, JGNAT gave you a run for your money, I did not see you decisively (or even convincingly) neutralize her reasoning.
I've repeated myself many times here as well, my post count is a bit higher than yours, it comes with the territory, so please jettison the martyr complex.
Consider it training for when you face the motley hordes in the Christ-dens you visit. :wink:
Cheers,
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

So apparently, the only reason I am moral is because other humans believe the myth that they will live forever thanks to an invisible creator who can read our minds.
Let's imagine a world in which these holy books hadn't been written, like the time before they were written. To even reach the point where we could work together to invent our different religions we would have had to have been aware that a world where people got on was better for our survival than a world in which we all killed each other over nothing.

But where are the Atheist missions? Where are the Atheist orgs in Africa building wells? I can't think of one. Google "Christian Aid Africa" or "Christian Mission Africa".
Try googling 'atheist charities' and plenty of sites give you your answer. You have to stop thinking of atheism as a 'belief system'. Atheists would do good things in the name of what, exactly? In the name of 'no god'? You are essentially asking 'Where are the Zeus Denying Organisations? Where are the Unbelievers in Unicorns charities? Why don't I hear of the We Don't Believe in Allah Alliance?'
How many good things have you done in the name of not believing in Russell's teapot?
Ridiculous, yeah? It's only in the Christian mind that your god is somehow more likely than all of these things. There are secular groups who help, those that don't do these things in the name of promoting religion. Even they don't say they do it in the 'name of atheism' because, as I've said, it's not a belief system.

LOL. You cuntpaste the link to one of my first convos with a militant antitheist and use that to end the discussion? Look at my post count there. I've evolved sero.
I used it to show I've been over this with you before, and you didn't respond to my points. I've not read it yet, but it looks like you may have finally got around to answering some of the points in that thread now.
More posts means a better ability to answer questions? Judging from this current thread, I don't think this is the case. You've ignored several of my questions here too. Do you want me to make a list?
You haven't even addressed my previous two comments properly. What morality you possess you have, in part, learned from your culture and Christian heritage. At least give credit where due.
I have addressed those points. I addressed them several months ago in the other thread and it's only now I'm getting a response.

please jettison the martyr complex.
Please forgive me. I thought you would have been more lenient, seeing as this life is all I have (unless I burn forever!) and your existence will continue throughout eternity, after the sun goes supernova, Earth ceases to be and our galaxy collides with another. I will attempt to be more humble.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Ehh, why not? Maybe this should be pointed out.
Some of these questions were direct, others are ones I'm just curious about now that I look back over the thread. Each one you answer will be removed from the list.
1. Do you believe in faries?
2. If not, do you go to the bottom of the garden to search for them?
3. Would you admit that it's a bad argument to say 'Well, you can't DISPROVE [whatever it is]'?
4. How is it faith to know of ways I want to enjoy this life?
5. You have said I must think death is the only point - 'born simply to die'. Can you explain why I am being inconsistent in trying to sustain a durable future for our species?
6. If life just for life's sake has little value, won't living forever be an eternity of low value existence?
7. What's wrong with talking about religion with people who want to talk about it?
8. I take it you don't have a problem when people try to spread the message of Jesus, so why the double standard?
9. Is it fanatical to talk with people about who the next president should be, or the best way to eat healthily?
10. Why does your god need defending from me?
11. Is it a good argument to say things are wrong/false because they don't sound very nice?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Hey Sero
Bringing up a thread from 6 months ago is a cop-out.
You don't have to believe.
I don't have to stop believing.
All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with believing.
You say there is something wrong with it and therefore you have to convert others.
You have the agenda, not I.
Deal with it.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

12. What would atheists do good things in the name of?
13.
How many good things have you done in the name of not believing in Russell's teapot?

And I could have included a couple more there.
Bringing up a thread from 6 months ago is a cop-out.
I think it's better to link to a thread rather than copy and paste huge chunks of my past writing and put it in this one. Out of the two of us, I'm still the last to give my thoughts on that subject. I can't continue without feedback.

You don't have to believe.
I don't have to stop believing.
Totally agree.

All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with believing.
You say there is something wrong with it and therefore you have to convert others.
Not quite. People can believe what they want. It's the actions done in the name of their beliefs I'm more concerned about, but I'm not the thought police! Which is why I never speak to people who don't want to talk about it.
You have the agenda, not I.
I've not kept it a secret. Yes, I'd like humanity to give up superstition. Call it an 'agenda' if you like. If you don't like it, you don't have to read what I put. To do so is your choice.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

1. Do you believe in faries?
I believe in spirits.
2. If not, do you go to the bottom of the garden to search for them?
See #1.
3. Would you admit that it's a bad argument to say 'Well, you can't DISPROVE [whatever it is]'?
You deny my own experience with a categorical universal negative.
4. How is it faith to know of ways I want to enjoy this life?
Those ways constitute a belief system. That XYZ is a good way to live constitutes a belief. You really can't prove it now can you?
5. You have said I must think death is the only point - 'born simply to die'. Can you explain why I am being inconsistent in trying to sustain a durable future for our species?
You caricature what I said. At this point I think you are misunderstanding me on purpose.
6. If life just for life's sake has little value, won't living forever be an eternity of low value existence?
I believe that life for it's own sake is less satisfying than life for a greater purpose. So no, I believe that eternal life in communion with God wouldn't be a low value existence but a supremely meaningful one.
7. What's wrong with talking about religion with people who want to talk about it ?
I believe you are lying here. You do not merely want to talk about it like we are discussing the weather. You have an agenda to convert as many of those that don't agree with you as possible. You sent me an unsolicited PM earlier this week. You do not sound like you just "want to talk about it":
It's become so desperate that we're having to trample on people's feelings and sensibilities. That's not something I like doing, but when I consider the alternative I feel there's no choice. Better for someone to understand there are no pixies and feel a little upset, than for someone to kill in the name of pixies.

9. Is it fanatical to talk with people about who the next president should be, or the best way to eat healthily?
No. But neither do I surreptitiously go to the meetings of the opposition party to disrupt the purpose it is being held for.
8. I take it you don't have a problem when people try to spread the message of Jesus, so why the double standard?
I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with your dishonesty. I would never go to an atheist antichristian meeting to preach and try to convert them. I would not go to a mosque or synagogue or a coven to do the same. That would be disrespectful.
10. Why does your god need defending from me?
He doesn't. I am not defending God. I am defending my belief in God.
11. Is it a good argument to say things are wrong/false because they don't sound very nice?
It is not wrong to demonstrate how one belief system has greater utilitarian value than another one. You yourself have spent a lot of time on this thread attempting to do just that with respect to your own views.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
why would an atheist go to church?
to seek out a god?.
no more than a historian seeks out ra or hathor by researching egyptian religions.. those religions are dead now.



Related Topics
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth a month ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/155845/my-visits-church?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My Visits To Church
/  





 

My Visits To Church
by serotonin_wraith 8 years ago 40 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago


1. Do you believe in faries?
I believe in spirits.
That's nice.

1. Do you believe in faries?
2. See 1.


You deny my own experience with a categorical universal negative.

In what way? I'm not sure what you're saying here.
I know I don't use the 'well you can't disprove it' argument if you're trying to say I do the same thing.



Those ways constitute a belief system. That XYZ is a good way to live constitutes a belief. You really can't prove it now can you?
 I have good reasons for believing those ways give me joy. The best reason is that they give me joy. My ways certainly aren't the meaning of life for everyone, only myself. There is no universal meaning of life.

You caricature what I said.

I don't think so.
You write:
"You are the one that believes we are born simply to die. How can you believe otherwise in a cold uncaring random and meaningless Universe?"
I believe that life for it's own sake is less satisfying than life for a greater purpose. So no, I believe that eternal life in communion with God wouldn't be a low value existence but a supremely meaningful one.

Isn't human life just part of this great purpose too? It seems that to even reach the afterlife you seek, you HAD to be born into THIS life first. More than that, you had to be born in a world where you would come to learn of Christianity. I thought you were in communion with God now, and that the years you've lived so far are just the start of your eternal life, seeing as you are going to survive your own death.
I believe you are lying here. You do not merely want to talk about it like we are discussing the weather

I never said I did. I said I want to talk about it with people who want to talk about it. I don't say 'I want to find God, please help me.' That would be lying. I say 'I don't believe in a god because I see no reason to believe in one, but I like discussing the issues.' It's then up to them if they want to or not.
The PM was in response to a thread you wrote weeks ago (and I did tell you this), where you seemed concerned about outspoken atheism. I did not try to deconvert you, I gave explanations as to why outspoken atheism was taking place. It's not the same thing.
But neither do I surreptitiously go to the meetings of the opposition party to disrupt the purpose it is being held for.

I have disrupted nothing. I have sat in quietly and did not approach anyone. When asked by members who I was, I explained I was a non believer (nothing hidden). When people gave me their reasons for believing (which I did not ask for), I listened and then explained how their arguments did not convince me. I could have listened and said nothing (and been rude) or I could have lied and said 'Yes, those are good reasons.' I don't like to be rude or lie, so I told the truth.
In fact, with the Baptist one, events went like this:
I had a leaflet through my door advertising the church and saying all were welcome. The very first communication was not even initiated by myself. I attended. Then, as I explain above, I was asked who I was, etc. The pastor approached me and offered me a book he'd written. I took it and read it. I emailed him with my thoughts on the book. He was not forced to read the email, just as I was not forced to read the book. HE invited ME to meet up for coffee and discuss things further. We spoke of creationism and evolution, and I did not lie about my position. I explained we were on opposite sides in this particular matter. He gave me creationist material to look at. I have responded to it, offering evidence to back up what my position is. He either cannot respond or has chosen not to respond to me at this point. That's as far as it goes now with him in my eyes. To pursue it even further would be forcing my opinion.
I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with your dishonesty. I would never go to an atheist antichristian meeting to preach and try to convert them. I would not go to a mosque or synagogue or a coven to do the same. That would be disrespectful.

Hopefully I've covered this now. Once people try to convert me, I'm free to give my side. They've initiated the exchange, and can stop at any time. Otherwise I would be being rude or a liar.
It is not wrong to demonstrate how one belief system has greater utilitarian value than another one. You yourself have spent a lot of time on this thread attempting to do just that with respect to your own views.

No, that's fine. I even agree that in some cases religion can be comforting if someone wants to live forever, because reality doesn't offer that comfort. What interests me is whether it shows something to be true or not, and just because X is comforting, it doesn't mean X is true.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
why would an atheist go to church?
to seek out a god?.
no more than a historian seeks out ra or hathor by researching egyptian religions.. those religions are dead now.



Related Topics
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth a month ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/155845/my-visits-church?page=3&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Article by Morman Organization about JW'S
/  





 

Article by Morman Organization about JW'S
by whereami 8 years ago 17 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
5
10
20
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

Email going around in the JW world.

This really does make us appreciate it...especially when you see it from an outsider's point of view.
Very interesting article authored by the LDS (Mormons) - helps you to really appreciate what we have.
The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
Best Missionary Literature Printing and Distribution Program
Jehovah's Witnesses
The Jehovah's Witnesses distribute over 5,000 tons (10 million pounds) of religious literature in Russia alone each year! In contrast, the average LDS missionary worldwide distributes only one copy of the Book of Mormon every five days. Even the best and most spiritually prepared individuals can't accept a message unless they have an opportunity to hear it! In light of these facts, it can hardly come as a surprise that there are over 120,000 active Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and similar numbers in Ukraine and Poland, compared to only about 4,000 active Latter-day Saints (out of 12,000 'on the rolls') in Russia, 2,500 active (out of 8,000 'on the rolls') in Ukraine, and 250 active out of 1100 'on the rolls' in Poland. Nor can it come as a surprise that there are over 13,000 active Witnesses in Kazakhstan and over 10,000 in Georgia, compared to only a handful of LDS members in both countries.
 A comparison of statistics in many other Eastern European and Asian nations is similar (Slovakia-- 12,000 JWs to about 40 active LDS, Romania -- 30,000 JWs to under 500active LDS, et cetera.) Why are the Witnesses growing so rapidly in these countries with very few foreign missionaries, while Latter-day Saints are experiencing very slow growth in spite of a large contingent of full-time foreign missionaries? It isn't that JW commitments are easier - meeting schedules are comparable and JW members actually have to be attending church for much longer before they can be baptized. The answer lies in the Jehovah's Witnesses strategic planning and literature distribution to reach every soul and sound their message in every ear, often many times over.
 The Apostle Paul asked, 'How will they believe in him of whom they have not heard?' Good question. And, judging by the statistics above, there are far, far more people who are having the opportunity to hear the Jehovah's Witness message, than the message of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't that people are hard-hearted - it's that they aren't having enough exposures and opportunities to receive the Restored Gospel.
 Best Member-Missionary Program
 Jehovah's Witnesses
 Of the more than six million active Jehovah's Witnesses, almost all spend a minimum of ten hours a month sharing their faith with others, and 850,000 - almost 15% - spend fifty or more hours a month. According to George Barna's study of religious practices by denomination published on of July 9, 2001, only 26% of U.S. Latter-day Saints make any attempt at all to share their faith with non-members over the course of an entire year. So Latter-day Saints aren't even in the running.
Best Proselyting Magazine
Jehovah's Witnesses
Watchtower and Awake! This one isn't even a close. The hands-down winner is the Jehovah's Witness organization for Watchtower and Awake! Watchtower has an average circulation of over 22 million -- the largest circulation of any religious magazine, while Awake! follows behind at 19 million. No other religious magazines even approach this distribution. The Watchtower is translated into 144 languages for simultaneous release, and so it escapes the English-language cultural stigma of many other religious magazines that are translated into other languages weeks or months after the English version. If you pick up a copy of Awake! or the Watchtower, you'll quickly see why these magazines are so successful.
 Many religious magazines are directed primarily to existing members and use vocabulary and references that are not understandable to non-members who aren't 'in the know.' Not so with the Watchtower and Awake! Thumbing through one of the numerous of copies of Awake! in front of me, I see well-written articles on Louis Braille's invention of the Braille script, the volcanic creation of the Santorini Island, Chagas ' disease, Olympic facts, the life cycle of Beavers, a recent earthquake in Taiwan, Jehovah's Witnesses service projects, and much more - all masterfully tied into Bible themes.
One Jehovah's Witness friend of mine mentioned not long ago that he had never completed college, but that he felt t hat he had learned many college-level items by reading Awake! over the course of his life. The Watchtower contains more life-application type articles related to Biblical doctrines. While the articles definitely carry the Jehovah's Witness' theological slant, they are also full of interesting and relevant facts that one would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. The authors have definitely done their homework, although I do not agree with many points of their theology.
 The Jehovah's Witnesses do a wonderful job of making their publications engaging and relevant to both Witnesses and non-witnesses alike. Also, many religious magazines today are permeated with flowery blandishments with little substance. Some denominations filter religious media to present a glowing media image, while failing to confront or acknowledge significant real-world challenges. Inspirational stories of individuals --however moving -- get old after a while without more real-world content, and besides-- many types of inspirational stories are claimed by all denominations, and prove nothing. The Jehovah's Witnesses are pragmatic enough to acknowledge that living Christian ideals in the real world doesn't always make for neatly-packaged fairy-tale stories. No one could ever accuse Watchtower or Awake! of fostering complacency -- to the contrary, they generate a sense of awar eness that I have rarely encountered in other religious publications. The Watchtower and Awake! are refreshing in their factual-based, well-researched, relevant real-world content. Regardless of the tenuousness of Jehovah's Witness theology, it is no surprise that these magazines are so popular worldwide.
 Best Convert Retention
Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)

 In contrast to 20-25% average LDS retention rates worldwide, both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Adventists manage to retain the considerable majority of new converts. Short-term baptismal goals, hasty teaching with limited attempt to assess the true depth of the investigator's understanding and commitment, and 'baptize them quick while they feel the Spirit and hope that they decide to come to church again' approaches, have resulted in a 20-25% average LDS retention rates in Latin America and Asia. I have never known of anything good to come of converts being rushed to baptism. Indeed, while rushing baptisms may result in quick, temporary increases in statistics, it also ignites a long-burning fuse that results in serious member problems, or even in the eventual collapse of local branches. Perhaps in this we have a lesson to learn both from our own scriptures, from our current prophet (Gordon B. Hinckley: 'it is not necessary for us to lose any of those who are baptized') and from the Jehovah's Wi tnesses, who ta ke pre-baptismal preparation much more seriously than most Latter-day Saints.
 Jehovah's Witnesses would never consider rushing an individual to baptism in two weeks or less: individuals must first prove their dedication to Jehovah and worthiness to serve as his spokesman. As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention, compared to an average 25-30% worldwide LDS retention rate.
 
BreakingAway
BreakingAway 8 years ago

So we're supposed to believe that a Mormon written article goes on non-stop about just how great Jehovah's Witnesses and their proselytizing is ? LOL Looks like more "theocratic warfare" (lies).They really are desperate for any type of justification or praise , aren't they ?
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

To me it seems more than a little narcissistic that the Jehovah's Witnesses' number one message printed by their publishing company is the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have the best publishing company.
No wonder current Witnesses are doing hit and run door to door literature distribution. If I were them, I'd be too embarrassed to let anybody see the literature. I swear that Revelation book had to have been produced in Iowa as corny as it is. Seven trumpets my ass!


 
watson
watson 8 years ago

I guess they havn't seen the baptism numbers over the last 7 years, compared to current active publishers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

I'd like to see some references..
They forgot to mention other stats that the JWs beat Mormons in:
Most window cleaners per 100 members.
Greatest toilet paper distribution channel in the world.
Greatest number of 3rd world standard building constructions in the developed world.
Most-anti education door to door proselyters.
Most humorous religious artwork.
Most pointless arguments (it really was a stake not a cross.)
Largest number of atonement ignorers.
Prize for the only group who can actually drop the mood at a funeral.
Least visible Jesus ever followed closely by least visible charitable works.
...least that's what this Mormon would have written. Other than it being poo its not a bad article :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
kwr
kwr 8 years ago

Thanks for posting such an interesting article.
 
sf
sf 8 years ago

~delete~
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

Was this published? If so, where? It's got some Mormon terminology, but still I'd be interested in seeing the actual piece it claims to be from. Has it been embellished?
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

" Best Convert Retention Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)"
 I think that clinches the fact that this e-mail is false. Obviously it's cooked up by a JW who read the CNN article (which listed JWs and Seventh-Day Adventists as having the worst retention rates) and wants to counteract it before it gets around.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

"seven trumpets my ass!"


 
uwishufish
uwishufish 8 years ago

Was that Elvis and the trumpetiers or just the trumpetiers?
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

So, is it supposed to be a good thing when one cult praises another cult?
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention
This is incorrect. JWs have been shown to have the highest turnover of any religion, with 50% of the number baptised leaving every year. The other figures also seem to be somewhat incorrect or selective, as the Mormons have grown quicker than JW's and have higher numbers globally.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

I challenged this exact article on two other sites, since it is obviously NOT from any LDS source. I requested sources, references, etc., and so far ..... NADA, ZIP, ZILCH.
This is bogus.

SusanHere
 
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

I also thought it was fishy. This email came without any original article attached to it.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

Also, since the JW's don't respect any other religion's opinion on anything, why should any supposedly LDS-sponsored article be any big high-5 for them? If they don't believe other religions are anything other than spawns of Satan, then nothing coming from those "evil" sources should be quoted as being wonderful.
Isn't this kind of like how the JW's would quote directly from Kingdom of the Cults by that great fake Walter Martin whenever they wanted to dump on the SDA's or the LDS, and then vehemently deny everything the SAME book had to say about their own JW religion?
That never made much sense to me. Can't walk on both sides of the road at the same time. Just doesn't work.

SusanHere
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 8 years ago

I believe that JWs place more literature worldwide than any other group, but that is the only element of the article that rings true.
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 8 years ago

The Witnesses VERY SELECTIVELY sliced and diced from this report: http://www.cumorah.com/bestprograms.htm
"The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
This page catalogues some of the most exceptional missionary successes of non-LDS religious groups.
Non-LDS groups that consistently report remarkable missionary results are listed here. The listing of some non-LDS groups here does not in any way endorse their activities or teachings, nor does it imply that LDS and non-LDS missionary efforts are equivalent, nor that all lessons from non-LDS groups are necessarily transferable to an LDS setting. Other denominations lack the fullness of the gospel, modern revelation, and the authority that are necessary to building up of Christ's Kingdom on Earth. Nevertheless, in the spirit of seeking out all good and all that which is profitable for learning and instruction, some selected items are presented here in the hope that some value may be derived from them. Joseph Smith taught:
"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'" Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 316
It should also be understood that the content of this page is the sole responsibility of the author, and not of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to which this site has no legal relation."

Compare the Witnesses with these other "winners":
Best Native Missionary Program — K.P. Yohannan of Gospel for Asia
Best Community Outreach Strategy — DAWN Ministries
Best Church Planting Program — International Mission Board, Southern Baptist Convention
Best Evangelistic Broadcasting Network — Adventist World Radio
Best Parachurch Volunteer Organization — Maranatha
Best Scripture Translation Organization — Wycliffe Bible Translators
Best Missionary Research — George Barna
Best Audioscripture Ministry — Audioscriptures.org and Hosanna.org
Best Unreached People Project — Joshua Project
Best Internet Outreach — David Yonggi Cho and Yoido Full Gospel Church

~Sue
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago
The Searcher
A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 6 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights You Did Not Hear at the 8-23-2015 WT Study (PRAYER 1)
by blondie 7 months ago
biblexaminer
PEACE AND SECURITY!
by biblexaminer 19 days ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/156001/article-morman-organization-about-jws






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Article by Morman Organization about JW'S
/  





 

Article by Morman Organization about JW'S
by whereami 8 years ago 17 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
5
10
20
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

Email going around in the JW world.

This really does make us appreciate it...especially when you see it from an outsider's point of view.
Very interesting article authored by the LDS (Mormons) - helps you to really appreciate what we have.
The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
Best Missionary Literature Printing and Distribution Program
Jehovah's Witnesses
The Jehovah's Witnesses distribute over 5,000 tons (10 million pounds) of religious literature in Russia alone each year! In contrast, the average LDS missionary worldwide distributes only one copy of the Book of Mormon every five days. Even the best and most spiritually prepared individuals can't accept a message unless they have an opportunity to hear it! In light of these facts, it can hardly come as a surprise that there are over 120,000 active Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and similar numbers in Ukraine and Poland, compared to only about 4,000 active Latter-day Saints (out of 12,000 'on the rolls') in Russia, 2,500 active (out of 8,000 'on the rolls') in Ukraine, and 250 active out of 1100 'on the rolls' in Poland. Nor can it come as a surprise that there are over 13,000 active Witnesses in Kazakhstan and over 10,000 in Georgia, compared to only a handful of LDS members in both countries.
 A comparison of statistics in many other Eastern European and Asian nations is similar (Slovakia-- 12,000 JWs to about 40 active LDS, Romania -- 30,000 JWs to under 500active LDS, et cetera.) Why are the Witnesses growing so rapidly in these countries with very few foreign missionaries, while Latter-day Saints are experiencing very slow growth in spite of a large contingent of full-time foreign missionaries? It isn't that JW commitments are easier - meeting schedules are comparable and JW members actually have to be attending church for much longer before they can be baptized. The answer lies in the Jehovah's Witnesses strategic planning and literature distribution to reach every soul and sound their message in every ear, often many times over.
 The Apostle Paul asked, 'How will they believe in him of whom they have not heard?' Good question. And, judging by the statistics above, there are far, far more people who are having the opportunity to hear the Jehovah's Witness message, than the message of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't that people are hard-hearted - it's that they aren't having enough exposures and opportunities to receive the Restored Gospel.
 Best Member-Missionary Program
 Jehovah's Witnesses
 Of the more than six million active Jehovah's Witnesses, almost all spend a minimum of ten hours a month sharing their faith with others, and 850,000 - almost 15% - spend fifty or more hours a month. According to George Barna's study of religious practices by denomination published on of July 9, 2001, only 26% of U.S. Latter-day Saints make any attempt at all to share their faith with non-members over the course of an entire year. So Latter-day Saints aren't even in the running.
Best Proselyting Magazine
Jehovah's Witnesses
Watchtower and Awake! This one isn't even a close. The hands-down winner is the Jehovah's Witness organization for Watchtower and Awake! Watchtower has an average circulation of over 22 million -- the largest circulation of any religious magazine, while Awake! follows behind at 19 million. No other religious magazines even approach this distribution. The Watchtower is translated into 144 languages for simultaneous release, and so it escapes the English-language cultural stigma of many other religious magazines that are translated into other languages weeks or months after the English version. If you pick up a copy of Awake! or the Watchtower, you'll quickly see why these magazines are so successful.
 Many religious magazines are directed primarily to existing members and use vocabulary and references that are not understandable to non-members who aren't 'in the know.' Not so with the Watchtower and Awake! Thumbing through one of the numerous of copies of Awake! in front of me, I see well-written articles on Louis Braille's invention of the Braille script, the volcanic creation of the Santorini Island, Chagas ' disease, Olympic facts, the life cycle of Beavers, a recent earthquake in Taiwan, Jehovah's Witnesses service projects, and much more - all masterfully tied into Bible themes.
One Jehovah's Witness friend of mine mentioned not long ago that he had never completed college, but that he felt t hat he had learned many college-level items by reading Awake! over the course of his life. The Watchtower contains more life-application type articles related to Biblical doctrines. While the articles definitely carry the Jehovah's Witness' theological slant, they are also full of interesting and relevant facts that one would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. The authors have definitely done their homework, although I do not agree with many points of their theology.
 The Jehovah's Witnesses do a wonderful job of making their publications engaging and relevant to both Witnesses and non-witnesses alike. Also, many religious magazines today are permeated with flowery blandishments with little substance. Some denominations filter religious media to present a glowing media image, while failing to confront or acknowledge significant real-world challenges. Inspirational stories of individuals --however moving -- get old after a while without more real-world content, and besides-- many types of inspirational stories are claimed by all denominations, and prove nothing. The Jehovah's Witnesses are pragmatic enough to acknowledge that living Christian ideals in the real world doesn't always make for neatly-packaged fairy-tale stories. No one could ever accuse Watchtower or Awake! of fostering complacency -- to the contrary, they generate a sense of awar eness that I have rarely encountered in other religious publications. The Watchtower and Awake! are refreshing in their factual-based, well-researched, relevant real-world content. Regardless of the tenuousness of Jehovah's Witness theology, it is no surprise that these magazines are so popular worldwide.
 Best Convert Retention
Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)

 In contrast to 20-25% average LDS retention rates worldwide, both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Adventists manage to retain the considerable majority of new converts. Short-term baptismal goals, hasty teaching with limited attempt to assess the true depth of the investigator's understanding and commitment, and 'baptize them quick while they feel the Spirit and hope that they decide to come to church again' approaches, have resulted in a 20-25% average LDS retention rates in Latin America and Asia. I have never known of anything good to come of converts being rushed to baptism. Indeed, while rushing baptisms may result in quick, temporary increases in statistics, it also ignites a long-burning fuse that results in serious member problems, or even in the eventual collapse of local branches. Perhaps in this we have a lesson to learn both from our own scriptures, from our current prophet (Gordon B. Hinckley: 'it is not necessary for us to lose any of those who are baptized') and from the Jehovah's Wi tnesses, who ta ke pre-baptismal preparation much more seriously than most Latter-day Saints.
 Jehovah's Witnesses would never consider rushing an individual to baptism in two weeks or less: individuals must first prove their dedication to Jehovah and worthiness to serve as his spokesman. As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention, compared to an average 25-30% worldwide LDS retention rate.
 
BreakingAway
BreakingAway 8 years ago

So we're supposed to believe that a Mormon written article goes on non-stop about just how great Jehovah's Witnesses and their proselytizing is ? LOL Looks like more "theocratic warfare" (lies).They really are desperate for any type of justification or praise , aren't they ?
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

To me it seems more than a little narcissistic that the Jehovah's Witnesses' number one message printed by their publishing company is the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have the best publishing company.
No wonder current Witnesses are doing hit and run door to door literature distribution. If I were them, I'd be too embarrassed to let anybody see the literature. I swear that Revelation book had to have been produced in Iowa as corny as it is. Seven trumpets my ass!


 
watson
watson 8 years ago

I guess they havn't seen the baptism numbers over the last 7 years, compared to current active publishers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

I'd like to see some references..
They forgot to mention other stats that the JWs beat Mormons in:
Most window cleaners per 100 members.
Greatest toilet paper distribution channel in the world.
Greatest number of 3rd world standard building constructions in the developed world.
Most-anti education door to door proselyters.
Most humorous religious artwork.
Most pointless arguments (it really was a stake not a cross.)
Largest number of atonement ignorers.
Prize for the only group who can actually drop the mood at a funeral.
Least visible Jesus ever followed closely by least visible charitable works.
...least that's what this Mormon would have written. Other than it being poo its not a bad article :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
kwr
kwr 8 years ago

Thanks for posting such an interesting article.
 
sf
sf 8 years ago

~delete~
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

Was this published? If so, where? It's got some Mormon terminology, but still I'd be interested in seeing the actual piece it claims to be from. Has it been embellished?
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

" Best Convert Retention Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)"
 I think that clinches the fact that this e-mail is false. Obviously it's cooked up by a JW who read the CNN article (which listed JWs and Seventh-Day Adventists as having the worst retention rates) and wants to counteract it before it gets around.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

"seven trumpets my ass!"


 
uwishufish
uwishufish 8 years ago

Was that Elvis and the trumpetiers or just the trumpetiers?
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

So, is it supposed to be a good thing when one cult praises another cult?
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention
This is incorrect. JWs have been shown to have the highest turnover of any religion, with 50% of the number baptised leaving every year. The other figures also seem to be somewhat incorrect or selective, as the Mormons have grown quicker than JW's and have higher numbers globally.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

I challenged this exact article on two other sites, since it is obviously NOT from any LDS source. I requested sources, references, etc., and so far ..... NADA, ZIP, ZILCH.
This is bogus.

SusanHere
 
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

I also thought it was fishy. This email came without any original article attached to it.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

Also, since the JW's don't respect any other religion's opinion on anything, why should any supposedly LDS-sponsored article be any big high-5 for them? If they don't believe other religions are anything other than spawns of Satan, then nothing coming from those "evil" sources should be quoted as being wonderful.
Isn't this kind of like how the JW's would quote directly from Kingdom of the Cults by that great fake Walter Martin whenever they wanted to dump on the SDA's or the LDS, and then vehemently deny everything the SAME book had to say about their own JW religion?
That never made much sense to me. Can't walk on both sides of the road at the same time. Just doesn't work.

SusanHere
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 8 years ago

I believe that JWs place more literature worldwide than any other group, but that is the only element of the article that rings true.
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 8 years ago

The Witnesses VERY SELECTIVELY sliced and diced from this report: http://www.cumorah.com/bestprograms.htm
"The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
This page catalogues some of the most exceptional missionary successes of non-LDS religious groups.
Non-LDS groups that consistently report remarkable missionary results are listed here. The listing of some non-LDS groups here does not in any way endorse their activities or teachings, nor does it imply that LDS and non-LDS missionary efforts are equivalent, nor that all lessons from non-LDS groups are necessarily transferable to an LDS setting. Other denominations lack the fullness of the gospel, modern revelation, and the authority that are necessary to building up of Christ's Kingdom on Earth. Nevertheless, in the spirit of seeking out all good and all that which is profitable for learning and instruction, some selected items are presented here in the hope that some value may be derived from them. Joseph Smith taught:
"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'" Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 316
It should also be understood that the content of this page is the sole responsibility of the author, and not of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to which this site has no legal relation."

Compare the Witnesses with these other "winners":
Best Native Missionary Program — K.P. Yohannan of Gospel for Asia
Best Community Outreach Strategy — DAWN Ministries
Best Church Planting Program — International Mission Board, Southern Baptist Convention
Best Evangelistic Broadcasting Network — Adventist World Radio
Best Parachurch Volunteer Organization — Maranatha
Best Scripture Translation Organization — Wycliffe Bible Translators
Best Missionary Research — George Barna
Best Audioscripture Ministry — Audioscriptures.org and Hosanna.org
Best Unreached People Project — Joshua Project
Best Internet Outreach — David Yonggi Cho and Yoido Full Gospel Church

~Sue
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago
The Searcher
A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 6 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights You Did Not Hear at the 8-23-2015 WT Study (PRAYER 1)
by blondie 7 months ago
biblexaminer
PEACE AND SECURITY!
by biblexaminer 19 days ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/156001/article-morman-organization-about-jws







Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Ex-witnesses you could get in touch with, but don't really want to
/  





 

Ex-witnesses you could get in touch with, but don't really want to
by B_Deserter 8 years ago 6 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw experiences
5
10
20
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

Anybody run into this? I have a few.
1. My older brother. He got disfellowshipped but all of us still talk to him. My mom refuses to follow the mandate of cutting off family members totally if they don't live with you. I called him when I first wanted to leave the religion, and he was understandably supportive. He's what can impolitely be described as a religious nut. Joined up with a Pentecostal church, then a few others, now just kind of invented his own religion which is a mix of Watchtower teachings with more traditional views. He believes the trinity is a body of authority like the Supreme Court. Jehovah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate from each other, but they act as one authority and can be addressed in singular form, such as when someone "addresses the court." I know nothing about the trinity other than watchtower sources (which I'm SURE are really fair about describing it). Anyway, I'm Atheist and this isn't the stuff that bothers me. What's really annoying is the fact that he tried to get me to move to Cambodia with him to set up a biodiesel farm, build schools, and teach people and whatnot. The whole intensity of it I just can't handle at this point.
2. My aunt. She is very likely certifiably insane. She wrote a letter to the government accusing my mother of abusing my grandfather because she wouldn't let him take his cancer medication, which is utter baloney because my mother DRIVES HIM TO THE FREAKING HOSPITAL FOR CHEMO! Every conversation with my aunt is all about who is out to scam her. It's all about her, and it's all negative, all the time. She doesn't even know I'm not a witness anymore. The last time I heard from her she called me and said that I must be shunning her and that what my mom is saying about her is all a lie. My aunt is now a mormon.
3. A friend of mine that ended up moving out of state and executing a successful fade. Her and I were pretty close, and I had a thing for her. If you think my previous <a href="http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/148934/1.ashx">girl story </a>is embarrassing, this one is far, far worse. I did things that were so humiliating I'll never tell another human being. Anyway, I hounded her like I did the other girl. Then I found her myspace page and freaked. She belonged to this anonymous sex club. I called her mom (yeah, I know, PSYCHO. I can only plead Watchtower insanity) and gave her the address. I truly feel bad now because I actually ruined her fade. Everyone back home knows every bit of her dirty laundry so now she can't show her face back up here again without the elders probably hounding her. I suspect she wanted to leave the religion for quite a while. Anyway, I'd love to see her personality from a non-crazy, non-watchtower-slanted point of view, but other than that I have no desire to really talk to her at all. She's the barfly type, which I don't really have a lot in common with anyway. If it weren't for the witnesses, we wouldn't be friends.
 
kitten whiskers
kitten whiskers 8 years ago

Totally understand that! I just had to tell you how I chuckled while reading the last sentence about your aunt. I read it "moron" instead of "mormon". I had to do a double take. I guess it's too early for me to be on here! Kitten Whiskers
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 8 years ago

I doubt this is an XJW phenomenon actually. But, I agree, probably not people I would want to get in touch with.
Jeff
 
averyniceguy
averyniceguy 8 years ago

I would not want to get in touch with Danny Haszard. I have never even contacted him.
 
primitivegenius
primitivegenius 8 years ago

got a good one for you guys............. my wife grew up with a young lady....... they have been tight since the age of like 12..... in fact when we got married...... she was the maid of honor..... welll a few years later this girl has moved and we have moved........ wife wants to know if she should bother to keep up with her since she will probably never leave the dubs........... i tell her....... do what you think is right because your not under their laws anymore........... so since she just had a child my wife decides she will try and contact her old friend to send her a picture and just to let her know how we are doing.............
wife googles her and calls but gets a machine......... so no voice to KNOW its her........ so wife says if you are so in so from this place.......... im so in so.......... just trying to get in touch with you...... this is my number.
so what does this so called best friend for life do............ she calls my wifes uber judgemental psyco witness aunt. and starts telling her all this drama bulls***.
my wifes bff has a sister in law who was going to a church that we also attended and apparently she told her some things about us and that church and the jw ministry they had going on...... so without speaking to my wife........... she tries to start some s*** by calling her aunt...........
now she could have called my wifes aunt and gotten my mother in laws number............... and asked her or gotten my wifes number from her and then asked my wife............. thing is........ she DIDNT want to connect with my wife...... she wanted to start some drama and she knew how F*&^%$# ignorant auntie dearest was.
so wife says...... thats pretty much an answer from god........... so then two or three months later bitch decides to call my wife......... we were out........... she left a message............. just wanted to catch up with you............. BULLS*** if that was the case she woulda called us instead of her aunt......... needless to say that call was NOT returned, nor will it be
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

For the most part all of the people who I know that left I wouldn't be bothered running in to, but i'm sure there are some crazies that i'm forgetting :wink:
 
tijkmo
tijkmo 8 years ago

the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Jehovah's Witnesses - People of Integrity
by Saved_JW 5 months ago
OrphanCrow
Two Jehovah's Witnesses congregations abolished by courts - Russia
by OrphanCrow a month ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/149197/ex-witnesses-you-could-get-touch-but-dont-really-want





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Ex-witnesses you could get in touch with, but don't really want to
/  





 

Ex-witnesses you could get in touch with, but don't really want to
by B_Deserter 8 years ago 6 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw experiences
5
10
20
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

Anybody run into this? I have a few.
1. My older brother. He got disfellowshipped but all of us still talk to him. My mom refuses to follow the mandate of cutting off family members totally if they don't live with you. I called him when I first wanted to leave the religion, and he was understandably supportive. He's what can impolitely be described as a religious nut. Joined up with a Pentecostal church, then a few others, now just kind of invented his own religion which is a mix of Watchtower teachings with more traditional views. He believes the trinity is a body of authority like the Supreme Court. Jehovah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate from each other, but they act as one authority and can be addressed in singular form, such as when someone "addresses the court." I know nothing about the trinity other than watchtower sources (which I'm SURE are really fair about describing it). Anyway, I'm Atheist and this isn't the stuff that bothers me. What's really annoying is the fact that he tried to get me to move to Cambodia with him to set up a biodiesel farm, build schools, and teach people and whatnot. The whole intensity of it I just can't handle at this point.
2. My aunt. She is very likely certifiably insane. She wrote a letter to the government accusing my mother of abusing my grandfather because she wouldn't let him take his cancer medication, which is utter baloney because my mother DRIVES HIM TO THE FREAKING HOSPITAL FOR CHEMO! Every conversation with my aunt is all about who is out to scam her. It's all about her, and it's all negative, all the time. She doesn't even know I'm not a witness anymore. The last time I heard from her she called me and said that I must be shunning her and that what my mom is saying about her is all a lie. My aunt is now a mormon.
3. A friend of mine that ended up moving out of state and executing a successful fade. Her and I were pretty close, and I had a thing for her. If you think my previous <a href="http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/148934/1.ashx">girl story </a>is embarrassing, this one is far, far worse. I did things that were so humiliating I'll never tell another human being. Anyway, I hounded her like I did the other girl. Then I found her myspace page and freaked. She belonged to this anonymous sex club. I called her mom (yeah, I know, PSYCHO. I can only plead Watchtower insanity) and gave her the address. I truly feel bad now because I actually ruined her fade. Everyone back home knows every bit of her dirty laundry so now she can't show her face back up here again without the elders probably hounding her. I suspect she wanted to leave the religion for quite a while. Anyway, I'd love to see her personality from a non-crazy, non-watchtower-slanted point of view, but other than that I have no desire to really talk to her at all. She's the barfly type, which I don't really have a lot in common with anyway. If it weren't for the witnesses, we wouldn't be friends.
 
kitten whiskers
kitten whiskers 8 years ago

Totally understand that! I just had to tell you how I chuckled while reading the last sentence about your aunt. I read it "moron" instead of "mormon". I had to do a double take. I guess it's too early for me to be on here! Kitten Whiskers
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 8 years ago

I doubt this is an XJW phenomenon actually. But, I agree, probably not people I would want to get in touch with.
Jeff
 
averyniceguy
averyniceguy 8 years ago

I would not want to get in touch with Danny Haszard. I have never even contacted him.
 
primitivegenius
primitivegenius 8 years ago

got a good one for you guys............. my wife grew up with a young lady....... they have been tight since the age of like 12..... in fact when we got married...... she was the maid of honor..... welll a few years later this girl has moved and we have moved........ wife wants to know if she should bother to keep up with her since she will probably never leave the dubs........... i tell her....... do what you think is right because your not under their laws anymore........... so since she just had a child my wife decides she will try and contact her old friend to send her a picture and just to let her know how we are doing.............
wife googles her and calls but gets a machine......... so no voice to KNOW its her........ so wife says if you are so in so from this place.......... im so in so.......... just trying to get in touch with you...... this is my number.
so what does this so called best friend for life do............ she calls my wifes uber judgemental psyco witness aunt. and starts telling her all this drama bulls***.
my wifes bff has a sister in law who was going to a church that we also attended and apparently she told her some things about us and that church and the jw ministry they had going on...... so without speaking to my wife........... she tries to start some s*** by calling her aunt...........
now she could have called my wifes aunt and gotten my mother in laws number............... and asked her or gotten my wifes number from her and then asked my wife............. thing is........ she DIDNT want to connect with my wife...... she wanted to start some drama and she knew how F*&^%$# ignorant auntie dearest was.
so wife says...... thats pretty much an answer from god........... so then two or three months later bitch decides to call my wife......... we were out........... she left a message............. just wanted to catch up with you............. BULLS*** if that was the case she woulda called us instead of her aunt......... needless to say that call was NOT returned, nor will it be
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

For the most part all of the people who I know that left I wouldn't be bothered running in to, but i'm sure there are some crazies that i'm forgetting :wink:
 
tijkmo
tijkmo 8 years ago

the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Jehovah's Witnesses - People of Integrity
by Saved_JW 5 months ago
OrphanCrow
Two Jehovah's Witnesses congregations abolished by courts - Russia
by OrphanCrow a month ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/149197/ex-witnesses-you-could-get-touch-but-dont-really-want






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Engardio's Article about Jw's in USA Today....
/  





 

Engardio's Article about Jw's in USA Today....
by AK - Jeff 9 years ago 24 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2007-05-06-opledereligion_N.htm?csp=34
I agree with most of the 'benefits' he describes from the religion - particularly the civil liberties they have gained in the US. Story is one-sided, but ok.
By Joel P. Engardio Please excuse me if I ever disrupted your laundry, yard work or nap by knocking on your door. A Jehovah's Witness on your front porch is not a Girl Scout with cookies or a neighbor out of sugar. So I understand why you cursed and slammed the door. My Watchtower magazine and other Bible literature, with messages on morality and "false" religion, can be heavy reading. But did you really need to sic your dog on me?
Allowing Jehovah's Witnesses to knock door-to-door says a lot about the freedoms we value in America: religion, speech and personal liberty. It isn't easy letting people fully exercise their rights when you don't agree with their message or lifestyle. It seems threatening, which explains our current culture war. Jehovah's Witnesses uniquely demonstrate how to avoid this impasse and show us not only how religious and personal freedoms can peacefully co-exist, but also why they must.
I was in preschool in Saginaw, Mich., when I began helping my mom spread the "good news" of Jehovah's Kingdom. Designated doorbell-ringer was a cool job for a 4-year-old, even if our Saturday morning ministry meant sacrificing my cartoon-watching. That was a struggle. But our 10:30 a.m. coffee break was a blessing. That's when we would gather at Dunkin' Donuts, try not to get powdered sugar on our suits and dresses, swap stories and laugh. We always knew when you were "home-but-hiding."
As a teenager, I gave presentations at doorsteps around town in hopes of becoming a "publisher," or minister, of the Bible. I found fulfillment in telling others — anyone who cared to listen — that all of mankind's plagues would be solved when God's kingdom arrived. Eventually, though, I decided I wanted to take on the world's problems now. So I didn't become a Jehovah's Witness. I became a journalist. That was the first time I broke my mom's heart.
The courts and the Witnesses
In college, it surprised me to see Jehovah's Witnesses in the footnotes of my history books. I knew they were unpopular, but I hadn't realized how often they had been denied their rights to speak, worship, assemble and live as they chose. They had been regulars at the U.S. Supreme Court since the 1930s, arguing that the First Amendment was an empty promise to citizens outside the mainstream. Jehovah's Witnesses have argued 62 cases before the high court. Only the U.S. government has argued more. Jehovah's Witnesses won 50 of the cases, breathing life into the Bill of Rights and setting precedents for the civil rights movement.
"The Jehovah's Witnesses ought to have an endowment in view of the aid which they give in solving the legal problems of civil liberties," Chief Justice Harlan Fiske Stone wrote. His court would reverse itself in 1943, at the height of World War II, overturning a 1940 decision affirming the government's right to force citizens to perform patriotic rituals. Jehovah's Witnesses had refused to say the nation's Pledge of Allegiance, saying only God deserved such devotion. "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Justice Robert Jackson wrote in deciding the case, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other matters of opinion."
Reading my textbooks, I realized that's why my mom and I had the right to knock on your door. You may have been annoyed, but the annoyance led to court cases that expanded freedom for all. And not just in the USA. Since the fall of communism in the early 1990s, Jehovah's Witnesses have done the same in emerging democracies, winning 34 of their 45 cases before the European Court of Human Rights.
Politics isn't a part of it
The second time I broke my mom's heart was when I told her I am gay. Jehovah's Witnesses are social conservatives. Members can't be actively gay and can't get an abortion; women can't serve as religious leaders. These positions are not unique to this religion, of course. Just ask any gay kid how easy it was to come out to his Evangelical Christian, Roman Catholic or Mormon family. Yet Jehovah's Witnesses don't try to force their beliefs on others through politics. They would never protest an abortion clinic, bankroll a campaign against gay marriage or vote to restrict what they view as "sins." They believe that Jesus commanded Christians to stay out of politics and all war, including culture wars.
Jehovah's Witnesses do use the courts, however, to protect their Christian way of life. They choose to live within certain self-imposed boundaries, which include shunning members who reject the agreed-upon standards. But they also recognize and accept the fact that outside groups will benefit from their legal victories. Imagine if all religions had enough confidence in their faith that someone else's definition of marriage, life or morality posed no threat to their own.
So am I offended because my mom still distributes The Watchtower magazines, which include articles calling homosexuality a sin? If we want an open and free marketplace of ideas, many messages we don't like will compete for our attention. That's OK as long as no one is forced to listen or comply. Once you've said, "No, thanks" and closed the door, Jehovah's Witnesses will leave you in peace (at least until their next visit).
I'm proud of my door-knocking childhood, especially now that I recognize the legal legacy of my mom's faith. Consider this: At their last Supreme Court appearance, in 2002, Jehovah's Witnesses successfully argued that the climate of fear surrounding 9/11 should not justify the government's right to limit free speech by requiring permission to knock. I want to live in a society where everyone has the right to knock on a door and speak face-to-face with his neighbor. Even, as Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said, if it's just to "borrow a cup of sugar."
Joel P. Engardio has written and narrated KNOCKING, a documentary about Jehovah's Witnesses that will air May 22 on the PBS series Independent Lens.
 
jgnat
jgnat 9 years ago

I'm starting to like him. I agree that the JW's have helped preserve civil liberties in our country. I'm not so convinced that:
But they also recognize and accept the fact that outside groups will benefit from their legal victories. Imagine if all religions had enough confidence in their faith that someone else's definition of marriage, life or morality posed no threat to their own.
I don't think the rank and file or the leadership could care a whit how their victories have helped other groups.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

I don't think the rank and file or the leadership could care a whit how their victories have helped other groups.
I believe you are correct on that Janet, as far as the GB is concerned. But, remember Joel was spoon fed the WTS spin-doctored view as a youth. I recall many articles and talks in which this was stated as fact. It cannot be denied that the Jw' s have made huge impact on religious freedom - and that has transferred across the line to civil liberty also.
I do believe that many R&F Jw's are proud of that. I know I was. We were not interested in how other groups fared, true. But many of us were quite proud of the legal victories and what it meant within the legal system for other individuals.
Jeff
 
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 9 years ago

So, will the WTS/GB give its own members the same liberties it fights in court for?
Freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom to express personal views. Freedom to follow personal convictions, such as with the medical use of blood. Freedom to speak openly to DF'd loved ones.
I would like to see that.
Doug
 
carla
carla 9 years ago

I agree with Doug. My jw gave up trying to use that on me, how wonderful the org is for fighting the good fight for freedom because I would ask if the r & f were given the same rights. Never failed to stop him cold as he has no defense for that.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 9 years ago

True, but only half of the truth.
Indeed, it takes intolerant subcultures to test and establish the tolerance of society at large. But woe to those who get trapped into them...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/112798/1.ashx
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

You know, maybe this would be a good opportunity to send USA Today a rebuttal of that "Knocking" article.
Let them know that the WT Society was successful in shutting down the "Quotes" website. Let the readers see that the JW religion is only interested in its own freedoms and will go to great lengths to silence its critics.
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

Jehovah's Witnesses do use the courts, however, to protect their Christian way of life. They choose to live within certain self-imposed boundaries, which include shunning members who reject the agreed-upon standards. But they also recognize and accept the fact that outside groups will benefit from their legal victories. Imagine if all religions had enough confidence in their faith that someone else's definition of marriage, life or morality posed no threat to their own.
Give me a break.  The Governing Body and their henchmen lawyers don't give a damn if their 'victories' benefit anyone else outside the religion. In fact, they probably just view it as a necessary evil if they're to get what they want. Given their past rants and hatred of "false religion" and their glee that everything outside of the WTB&TS will be destroyed at Armageddon, it is ludicrous to suggest that they're fighting for anyone or anything outside their domain.
I hadn't realized how often they had been denied their rights to speak, worship, assemble and live as they chose. They had been regulars at the U.S. Supreme Court since the 1930s, arguing that the First Amendment was an empty promise to citizens outside the mainstream. Jehovah's Witnesses have argued 62 cases before the high court. Only the U.S. government has argued more. Jehovah's Witnesses won 50 of the cases, breathing life into the Bill of Rights and setting precedents for the civil rights movement...............Jehovah's Witnesses had refused to say the nation's Pledge of Allegiance, saying only God deserved such devotion.
It never fails to amaze (or disgust) me, how some people view the Witnesses as being heros for the above. According to Wikipedia, the term "allegence" means: "...Allegiance is the tie which binds the subject to the Sovereign in return for that protection which the Sovereign affords the subject...."  The WTS wants and demands the "protection" from the Sovereign (or government in this case), yet they refuse to do their part by doing something as simple as show respect and honor to the very country that they whine is denying them their "Rights". They refuse to fight for their country which provides them all kinds of freedom and Rights, and up until recently, refused to even do alternative services.
The WTS are certainly not the heros that they try to say they are. The fact that they will go to all the way to the Supreme Court to cry "discrimination" and "violation of our Rights" and "Freedom of Religion", yet at the same time, publish literature claiming these entities are being run by Satan, shows them to be nothing more than cowardly hypocrites. Furthermore, as we are all too well aware, the WTS denies its members the very same freedoms and rights that they fight for in court. Perhaps Engardio is trying to get back into his mother's good books by promoting a pro-Witness document such as this, I don't know. However, IMO, any positive outcome in their court battles to win them their 'rights', does not begin to compare with the damage, emotionally, financially, mentally, physically and spiritually, they have inflicted upon millions of members.
 
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Amen Mary !!!!
 
Amber Rose
Amber Rose 9 years ago

I thought it was kind of funny that this article about all the court cases that they won came out just as we were hearing about the one that they didn't win!
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Mr Engardio, if you are reading this, Im about to do a little "knocking" myself. In fact Im gonna knock a few of the JW's court cases into the gutter, where they belong.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 9 years ago

I commented on my own topic that the documentary that will air on PBS will not make
any converts to JW's. I said that the filmmaker avoided making controversial statements
but let the participants in the documentary make those statements. I said that it was
not a JW propoganda film. I stand by those statements, but I also said that his website
is another story.
Engardio's problem is that he wants the approval of JW's and non-JW's for his film. That's
normal. He wants to sell DVD's. I think he knows the issues, but not as well as most
ex-JW's. He's a homosexual that used to knock on doors, pushing WT literature, but never
got baptized. His mother is not told to shun him.
I still recommend that the film be shown, as it will start JW conversation. Such conversations
lead to the word "cult" and statements of "strange beliefs" and "I hate them ringing my bell."
But we understand that you can't separate their Supreme Court fights out of their deeds and
say that they fight for rights. They fight for their own survival, and they take away their member's
rights.
While I hope that the film is shown in most places, I can fully understand the passion in folks to
want to stop it. I have fastly come from fully supporting WTS to realizing that everything they
taught me was a lie. But I wonder if those protests are just helping the film. Even there, I
recognize that helping the film will hurt the WTS. So what I am saying- this is a tough controversy.
I don't know if I will try to get my wife to watch it or not. It's not anti-JW, so it won't push anyone
out of WTS anymore than it will bring them in.
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

I want to see it myself, just out of curiosity. Then I can decide how to pursue it.

We need to get PBS to pick up a story on the blood issue or the pedophile issue.

The thing that irks me about this "knocking" video is how it was presented. It is almost like they want people to feel sorry for the JW's like they are underdogs.
 
Honesty
Honesty 9 years ago

"Knocking" makes me really feel sorry for the JW's.
They are being exploited and don't even realise it.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 9 years ago

It is almost like they want people to feel sorry for the JW's like they are underdogs.
It does try to do that, but it only succeeds with the German concentration camps story.
Otherwise, it just makes people feel sorry for JW's having to follow such a strict and
dangerous policy on blood, and makes people feel sorry for them having to go knocking
on doors.
 
Gerard
Gerard 9 years ago

...accept the fact that outside groups will benefit from their legal victories.
I'm sick and tired of the JW propaganda saing that they have improved my own Civil Rights. All thay've done is to benefit the WT to earn the right to wake me up on a Saturday 8AM.
 
TD
TD 9 years ago


"They would never protest an abortion clinic, bankroll a campaign against gay marriage or vote to restrict what they view as "sins." They believe that Jesus commanded Christians to stay out of politics and all war, including culture wars. Jehovah's Witnesses do use the courts, however, to protect their Christian way of life."
Not a terribly clear thinker, this fellow. What exactly does he think the JW "...way of life" is if not a religious subculture?
How exactly would he describe the clash between those that would blare an incendiary message from a sound car outside of a church on a Sunday morning vs. those that would restrict this as an abuse of free speech and a disturbance of the peace if not a culture war?
(Of course this assumes he has actually read any of the 1930's and 40's court cases.)
 
edmond dantes
edmond dantes 9 years ago

Oh Dear! Oh Dear! That's a bit like praising the Natzis party for their right to march through the streets of Germany in the thirties, distributing hate everywhere they went, and telling everyone that they and only they have the right answers.They say they are theocratic when we all know it's a dictatorship.
Do you think for one minute that if the JWs' were ever in power (as if )that they would allow any other voice to be heard. The latest rumour I heard was that the dead annointed are going to come back at armageddon and help invisibly with the slaying.Correct me if I'm wrong; Can it be right for them to win rights which would be denied to their opposers.
It's one thing to have healthy debate but to go around saying, if you don't enter our ark you are dead meat and so are your toddlers and babies if you do not join us. This is in effect what they preach from door to door.
Edmond.
 
The wanderer
The wanderer 9 years ago

Dear Jeff:
Thank you for posting this article. As you made
mention it maybe somewhat one-sided, but it is
not a bad article.
I was wondering about this point within the
article though.
"Jehovah's Witnesses have argued 62 cases before the high court. Only the U.S. government has argued more. Jehovah's Witnesses won 50 of the cases, breathing life into the Bill of Rights and setting precedents for the civil rights movement."
There maybe some truth to this I guess
give credit where credit is due.
Your friend,
Richard
(The Wanderer)
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

Engardio's editorial, like his watchtower propaganda flick is completely and utterly absurd and one-sided. This outrageous idea that the JWs have been "stalwarts" of constitutional freedom due to their determination to be able to legally sacrifice their children to a publishing corporation is enough to induce nausea.....
There are THOUSANDS if not TENS OF THOUSANDS of splinter religious and non-religious "fringe" groups in Europe, Canada and the USA that have fought their respective governments in court for the right to practice their lunacy free from governmental intrusion. Is Engardio claiming, with a straight face, that because of a couple court cases involving the JWs that this has somehow shaped civil liberties in the US or any other country for that matter ????
Oh, you're right Mr. Engardio! Here I was thinking someone like Martin Luther King was an important figure in the evolution of civil liberties in the US, when I should have been thanking Judge "Booze" Rutherford all along for my freedoms! God bless the freedom to harass my neighbours on their property trying to hawk cult-rags! Let freedom reign! God bless the freedom to legally "sacrifice" the lives of my children on the whim of a board of senile old farts sitting in Brooklyn! Let freedom reign!
It comes down to this: The only "freedom" the WTS has won has been to allow themselves to set up a private, parallel universe with its own internal legal system, fascist mindset and "ruling" class all within the broader context of a free society.
I cant BELIEVE USA today would print this putrid vomit on its pages.....
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Tenacious
Has anyone noticed how in the October JW Broadcast, Losch encourages good works towards ALL people?
by Tenacious 5 months ago
Bangalore
Abuse redress depends on God: Jehovah's Witnesses
by Bangalore 6 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/133938/engardios-article-about-jws-usa-today






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Engardio's Article about Jw's in USA Today....
/  





 

Engardio's Article about Jw's in USA Today....
by AK - Jeff 9 years ago 24 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
need i remind you
need i remind you 9 years ago

Yeah I have to agree that the JWs are the only group of people I associate with on and off. Even though I didn't agree with some of their attitudes or policies, or other people dispize them, they have got to be still on my top five list of favorite religions. Too bad that some of their Kingdom halls are out of order with a cold formal spirit. And it's more or less my problem to an extent that I bailed out because they were moving "too slow" for my liking. It takes two to tango I suppose.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

Narkissos expressed my view well [better than I could say it]. The isolationist and evangelical nature of the cult has indeed become a wellspring of freedom in the courts. I do not laud the religion - but the good it has accomplished by it's nature has benefits.
Mary echoed my more vitriolic side regarding the hypocricy they practice on a daily basis.
I ironically cannot find any of the positions stated to be out of the range of my own views, from rabid to reserved. Such is the nature of this odd beast IMO. But of course I refer to the religion itself - not to the leadership of such - at least to the extent they can find separation.
Amazing range of emotions exist within regarding this religion.
Jeff
 
jgnat
jgnat 9 years ago

I'd like to see a lot of these comments repeated on the PBS site when it reopens on May 22. Thought provoking, that is for sure. As a film-maker, then, Engardio has succeeded in making us think.
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewforum.pbs?f=203
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

kid-A said: Oh, you're right Mr. Engardio! Here I was thinking someone like Martin Luther King was an important figure in the evolution of civil liberties in the US, when I should have been thanking Judge "Booze" Rutherford all along for my freedoms!
I believe it's pronounced: Rutherfraud
It comes down to this: The only "freedom" the WTS has won has been to allow themselves to set up a private, parallel universe with its own internal legal system, fascist mindset and "ruling" class all within the broader context of a free society. I cant BELIEVE USA today would print this putrid vomit on its pages.....
Have no fear hon.....I'm expecting this shit to be in the Toronto Star in the very near future. The one good thing about it though is the timing. With the horrific scandal out in BC with 2 of the sextuplets dying and the whole blood fiasco, the Witnesses' reputation up here in Canada is at a low they haven't seen since WWII. When you factor in the pedophile problem with the blood scandal, 'worldly' people don't think too much of the Witnesses anymore. Plus, the backlash from ex-Witnesses on the 'Knocking' documentary is going to find its way into the media and on the internet.
 
bobld
bobld 9 years ago

The Judiciary is a branch of the Government.So in a sense when the WTBTS uses the courts the WTBTS are in fact taking part in the Government.So the WTBTS in not neutral.It does not matter how many court cases the WTBTS won they are involving themselves in politics.If you belong to a union and go on strike.The Union will ask you to picket and as a Jehovah's Witnesses if you do, the WTBTS will come down on you like a ton of bricks.
When GAYS and LESBIANS use the courts and win all of their freedom and rights, the WTBTS better not say a word about the life style of the GAYS and LESBIANS.The WTBTS better CONDONE the life style of the homosexual community because the courts have rule in their favor.So we should not hear any negative remarks at SAD, Circuit Assemblies,District Conventions or any publications be it the Watchtower or Awake, otherwise the GAYS and LESBIANS can and should use the courts and sue the WTBTS for malicious libel.
Bob
 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2007-05-06-opledereligion_n.htm?csp=34.
i agree with most of the 'benefits' he describes from the religion - particularly the civil liberties they have gained in the us.
story is one-sided, but ok.. by joel p. engardioplease excuse me if i ever disrupted your laundry, yard work or nap by knocking on your door.



Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Tenacious
Has anyone noticed how in the October JW Broadcast, Losch encourages good works towards ALL people?
by Tenacious 5 months ago
Bangalore
Abuse redress depends on God: Jehovah's Witnesses
by Bangalore 6 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/133938/engardios-article-about-jws-usa-today?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ We are a Return Visit for the Mormans
/  





 

We are a Return Visit for the Mormans
by Bonnie_Clyde 10 years ago 32 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
Bonnie_Clyde
Bonnie_Clyde 10 years ago

Thought I sent this an hour ago, but apparently it didn't go.
For about a year Morman elders called on us off and on. Finally Clyde called it off.
But recently a new set of elders started coming. They would sit out on the front porch with Clyde,
and I would make myself invisible. A couple of weeks ago Clyde was taking a nap and the elders showed
up on our porch. I told them that I could not accept their Book of Morman and gave my reasons why.
Of course, they had their answer to why it was the book was from God.
They know about our Witness background, and I told them that if had only two religions to choose from--
the Witnesses or the Mormons, I would choose the Mormans although I really wasn't interesed in any
religion right now. I told them that there were three things I liked about them--one was that they
not only allow, they also encourage their young people to get an education. I liked the fact that
they encourage their people to set food and other supplies aside in the event of a catastrophe. I
like the fact that they seem to promote strong family ties (of course the Witnesses claim they do also).
That was probably a mistake as now they have now set up a weekly schedule to come and teach us the
"truth" about the Book of Mormon and about the prophet, Joseph Smith. Clyde doesn't mind their stopping
by on a Sunday afternoon. He says it gives us a chance to relax, talk about God and Christ, and it
gives them something to do.
I've mentioned three things I like about the Mormons. Now I'm going to start on what I don't like
about them.
1) They are a high-control religion--just like the WT.
2) I believe they also practice shunning. Does anyone know how severe?
3) They are filled with man-made rules--just like the WT.
4) They actually feel that modern revelations can actually nullify or replace Christ's teachings and
 example.
5) They have an answer for anything--just like the witnesses--even if it doesn't make sense.
6) They warn us about asking our "pastor" about the Book of Mormon because he would surely say it was
 wrong. If we want to know about the Mormans, go to the right source. I remember warning my studies
 the same way.
7) They expect their members to tithe 10% of their gross. Yikes!
8) They believe they are the only true religion.
I asked them why they think it is wrong to have a drink. This is not really a big concern. I drink very
moderately, rarely more than two a week. Clyde rarely drinks because of his medications. Their answer
was that there was some revelation back in the 19th century that it was wrong to use alcohol. I asked
about Jesus turning water into wine, but they feel that it was OK back then, but not now.
They feel that if we start reading the Book of Morman, and pray to God, that we will come to accept it
as God's word.
Like I said, I don't mind talking to them. But what if they take over our minds? Now that is scary!
Does anyone have any more information, or could someone give me a link so I can get more information.
 
greendawn
greendawn 10 years ago

You are right they are just another cult their founder was also a free mason just like Russell and they are oppresive on their members apart from having a lot of strange heretical ideas. They and the WTS are sister organisations.
 
lisavegas420
lisavegas420 10 years ago

I did a lot of research on the mormons. My husband has several family member that are Mormans. Two of the boys did missionay work in Japan and married women from there.
I found this site really interesting. Mostly I was intriqued and amazed with the people that felt exactly how I did when leaving JW's. Only the verbage is different: http://home.teleport.com/~packham/voices1.htm
From site:
VOICES OF FORMER MORMONS - 1
After fifteen years of marriage, ten of it as a Mormon and five years as an ex-Mormon, I can say it was the most miserable time of my life. My wife and I did the usual Mormon courtship thing--barely get to know each other, get married, and then stress and impoverish ourselves with children right away. I love my wife, but after a while it was clear to me that my greatest virtue was I was a returned missionary and the best thing I could do was to obey the leadership so that she could go to the Celestial f***ing Kingdom with me. On my part, I didn't give her all the passion I felt because I was afraid of not appearing patriarchal enough.
Mormons can't imagine that a person would leave the church as a rational, sane and completely thought-out direction. It always needs to have an excuse for them.....a personality conflict...an axe to grind...etc.
Every interaction with the church reported on this list has had some element of supervison, or monitoring, guidance, or control with it. Every contact with the church is "inspection" of you, your actions and motives. Home teachers (the LDS spy network IMNSHO), the bishop (micro-managing your life), the endless meetings and callings (the "beehive" concept), all designed to suck every last minute of your private life and resources from you.
was in a physically abusive marriage for more than 12 years. I had talked to various Bishops about this over the years, but always received the same counsel, which was: Try hard to make your marriage work, and try not to do anything to provoke your [Mormon] husband. One of my bishops in Colorado even suggested that I work on my homemaking skills, and try hard to be a better wife to my husband.
I could write a book about the anger I feel for the pomposity that has invaded my marriage bed over the past 27 years. The garments for starters. The insistance that sex be with single purpose in mind..... Endless church callings which drain bodies physically and spiritually. I'm just very grateful that our marriage is coming through the muck without being entirely destroyed before it ever got a chance to play itself through...
It just goes on and on...the lies, deceit, the spying, all up in your sex life, the do more, never good enough,

lisa

 
nelly136
nelly136 10 years ago

http://www.geocities.com/kathywut/html/church_handbook.html
theres some interesting links on this site, especially the bit about ex menbers being able to sue if theyre excommunicated after they've chosen to resign.
if you dont want them calling you really need to put your foot down and tell them to naff off, its your house and your time theyre intruding on.
 
nelly136
nelly136 10 years ago

and you are under absolutely no obligation to explain to them why you dont believe in their beliefs or justify your reasons.
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

Like I said, I don't mind talking to them. But what if they take over our minds? Now that is scary!
Don't worry, you have a permanent inoculation against manipulative cultish behavior. Thanks to your JW experience, you're immune. As long as you are not afraid to be rude, you can have them go any time you like. Just like the JW's, if you ask too many hard questions, the Mormons will leave. They can't risk being infected with honesty!
 
Mysterious
Mysterious 10 years ago

1) They are a high-control religion--just like the WT.Yes they are a very high control group, I don't differentiate their practices in this regard from JWs actually.
2) I believe they also practice shunning. Does anyone know how severe?
The shunning is every bit as severe as disfellowshipping. Even worse in heavily populated areas like Utah where it would be hard to get a job or even buy groceries if you were to leave the church.
3) They are filled with man-made rules--just like the WT.
Even more so since the book of mormon that they hold as doctrine was written by a man but is held up as the word of god.
4) They actually feel that modern revelations can actually nullify or replace Christ's teachings
Christ overturned the old covenant and gave us a new one according to his blood, wouldn't it be a rejection of Christ's blood and sacrifice to replace his teachings that he said would last his apostles to the last days?
5) They have an answer for anything--just like the witnesses--even if it doesn't make sense.
One of the goals of religion is to answer the unanswerable and thus provide comfort. The way cults grow is by having the answers that the weak and vulnerable seek. It is enough to have an answer even if it is not very plausible.
6) They warn us about asking our "pastor" about the Book of Mormon because he would surely say it was
 wrong. If we want to know about the Mormans, go to the right source. I remember warning my studies
 the same way.
I think you need to do independant research. Actually "make the truth your own". You would not ask a liar to prove his lies were right so why would you ask any religion to show how they are right?
7) They expect their members to tithe 10% of their gross. Yikes!
Jesus did away with the mosaic law there is no reason for this but greed.
8) They believe they are the only true religion.
Doesn't everybody honestly? People want to be right they don't want to follow a religion, especially one that requires sacrifice that is merely "a" path leading to god.

Personally I feel the JWs and mormons are scarily alike and that the negative fate they both offer is equally abysmal. Sites that offer support to ex-JWs and ex-mormons are also very similar. I would urge you to do your research and not get entangled in another trap like this one; make sure the rest of your family does too.
 
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 10 years ago

I found this site/on-line book interesting:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm
 
mckay
mckay 10 years ago

I was raised in a Mormon household and never, from day one had an interest in it. My favorite site for Mormon information is:
http://www.exmormon.org/
There's more there than you want to know but my favorite subject is Mormon Polygamy. Read a little about Joseph Smith and his marriages to other mens's wives and to 14 - 15 year old girls. Makes for interesting reading and interesting questions for Mormon Missionaries to answer as to the reasons for polygamy. No! it wasn't because of excess women as most LDS believe.
 
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 10 years ago

I told them that if had only two religions to choose from--
the Witnesses or the Mormons, I would choose the Mormans
And now for the grand prize - a brand new toaster oven! - *drumroll* - Would you rather be stabbed or shot?
 
Bonnie_Clyde
Bonnie_Clyde 10 years ago

Wow! You're all wonderful! I have a ton of ammunition now. They are not coming back till next Sunday. I plan to tell them that I have no interest in pursuing our discussions further. I think Clyde feels the same way although he might play along for awhile.
I really think Ray Franz has the right idea. His relationship with God is personal. He doesn't belong to any organized religion, but he likes to talk with people of different religions. I know I would never join another church unless the church allowed freedom of thought and expression and if they truly cared about one another. I really don't care much any more about doctrine.
I do miss the commeraderie that I used to feel as a JW, the feeling of being "right", and mostly I miss my daughter, my niece, and a few of my cousins. I'm not DF'd but am treated almost as if I were. My father even turned against me so much so that he signed his property over to my daughter and her husband. That's a long long story, and I will tell it someday when I can handle it emotionally.
Thanks again for your interest.
Bonnie
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 10 years ago

Here locally (San Antonio, TX) the Mormons completed the construction on what they call a 'temple'.
My cousin and aunt wanted me to go to the 'open house' - and I agreed to - with the stipulation that I wasn't interested in their religion.
When we were driving about the neighborhood where the temple was, there was a group that was 'protesting' - and had a table set up with flyers that they were handing out. They were basically against the Mormons - _and_ JWs.
My cousin was in the car with me and disgustedly made a comment about 'how could those people know anything about the Mormons' and 'people should get the information about the Mormons - from Mormons', etc.
I commented that I thought it was a good idea that people were set up like that - it was a free country - and people could protest - if they wanted. If they stopped someone from getting involved with JWs - I was all for it!
She just mumbled something and got quiet. I knew that my comments didn't sit too well with her.
While visiting the 'temple', I learned something that was a bit disconcerting to me... and that is that if a Mormon family wants to - they can get 'baptized' (I believe that's the term) - in the name of an ancester - and be 'joined' to them - supposedly for when they die and go to heaven.
Not sure that bit makes sense in type - but basically - if I understood it correctly - they can get great-grandmaw 'joined' to the Mormons - even after she's dead and long gone - even if she wasn't a Mormon - or didn't want anything to do with them.
Of course... I saw it as a really cool con that the Mormons have figured out - cause you know that there is a 'fee' involved for this 'service'.
Regards,
Jim TX
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 10 years ago

In the Mormon Church, they do 'baptisms for the dead' which means that someone is baptised 'by proxy' for those who have passed on before, thus giving them the opportunity to accept the gospel. They belief that in the afterlife, they have the opporutnity to preach or be preached at about the gospel, and that since you MUST be baptised, that it is a loving provision by heavenly Father that all can come to Him. This is why the LDS_Latter Day Saints_church is so into geneology. Making sure that all their ancestors have the opp. to accept the gospel is all about the family cnnections that they do continually promote.
I asked to be excommunicated and was never shunned. I do think it is a high control group, but I think that every church I have EVER observed that has any kind of actual interest in the members could be percieved that way. I have been to some where I am invisible from day one, and I know I could go there for years and no one would notice unless I made myself known, or signed up on a committee or something. Love bombing-forget about it!
The tithing would bother me more except that it is in the bible, and I have seen churches that expect not only tithes, but a lot of 'gifts'. The tithe and fast offering are up front-they don't nickle and dime you constantly in addition to the tithing. Frankly, that church does a lot more to take care of its members than any other I have seen, so I personally don't hold the tithing against them as a teaching.
I don't think those 19-21 year old boys have a clue about much, or instruction on how to brainwash you. They are not bible scholars, or BOM scholars, and don't really try to be, from what I see. They mostly go on " I know that the Book of Mormon is TRUE and that the Church is the restored church in these latter days(or something like that). " They aren't gonna wrestle the Word much.
Shelly
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I wish you really knew me - you would know that what has been said here is largely based on things that are not true or have been taken out of context.
 
lisavegas420
lisavegas420 10 years ago

From this site ....talking about their holy undergarments: http://molelog.molehill.org/blomt/archives/2003/05/mormon_garments.html


A LDS Girl
I am completely offended that you would post pictures of something sacred and special. The symbolism of the temple garment means a lot to me and I am terribly offended at this website. Obviously, I will not be returning. You should be so ashamed of yourself! This is not the least bit respectful.
In the temple, as members of the church we make certain covenants (promises) with the Lord. The garment is a part of, and also, a reminder of some of those covenants. The symbols on them are reminders of specific parts of these covenants. (i.e. as mentioned above, the knee mark indicating that every knee shall bow) Nothing more, nothing less. Much of what is talked about (at least doctrinally) in the temple is contained in the LDS “standard works” or scriptures. A good place to look would be the book of moses from the pearl of great price. (Online at lds.org for the curious) The old and new testaments and the doctrine and covenants also have a lot of information that is taught in the temple.
Of course, I was surprised to see Mormon underwear when I ventured onto this website. There are three symbols on this underwear which come directly from Freemasonry. The founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, sought to bring the purest form of masonism by combining its occultic practices with Christian names. Even the story of Smith finding the plates (which allegedly contained the original Book of Mormon) comes directly from masonic lore. The entire book of Mormon contains a plethora of masonic ideas. In Nauvoo, Smith made sure that the masonic lodge was finished before the temple. Upon his death at the Carthage Jail, one of the items found on him was a totem to the god Jupiter. All of these are verified truths from the LDS records themselves. Nowadays, Mormonism is modern-day Gnosticism just like the Watchtower is modern-day Arianism.
lisa
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

to openly mock is no virtue
 
ScoobySnax
ScoobySnax 10 years ago

Qcmbr........ I wonder about you being on an ex-JW board. I mean , me being pro-JW here makes sense (to a degree) but an active Mormon?
No offence intended.....but.......
 
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 10 years ago

Trying to understand - Qcmbr, are you Mormon?
 
mckay
mckay 10 years ago


 "to openly mock is no virtue"
Normally I would agree but in this case the LDS or Mormons have mocked and degraded persons of any skin color but "white and delightsome" for most of the churches existence.
A change was made in 1978 to finally allow Blacks into full fellowship or allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood but there still remained the residual effect among the "white and delightsome" members. I can't feel sympathy for them.
mckay
 
parakeet
parakeet 10 years ago

Qcmbr:
***To openly mock is no virtue.***
Yet you had no trouble writing this when I recommended to a poster a book about Mormom history by a respected author:
***I am Mormon Parakeet and you just talked out of your butt - for a start I don't have a gun (which is a shame because how else would I possibly get my extra wives or kill people when God commanded me - oops I'm spoiling Krackpot Krackys plot.) If you want to find out about anything I'd suggest avoiding airport lounge books as your primary source material.***
Yes, Mormon virtue is really something to admire.
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment a month ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/117738/we-return-visit-mormans





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ We are a Return Visit for the Mormans
/  





 

We are a Return Visit for the Mormans
by Bonnie_Clyde 10 years ago 32 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
Justin
Justin 10 years ago

The tenets of Mormonism were supposedly revealed to the prophet Joseph Smith over a period of years. The Book of Mormon, though it has been recognized as the classic text (Smith having found the plates in the Hill Cumorrah in New York), was only the first of these revelations and is, for the most part, quite orthodox. (It is the supposed history in the book which in questionable, including a visit by Jesus Christ to the Americas.) The full revelation developed over the years, and the final doctrinal structure was expressed by Smith in a funeral talk given for King Follett (a disciple) shortly before Smith's own death at the hands of a mob.
Smith claimed that God was once a mortal man, and is now an exalted man. That all people who have ever lived were originally spirits with God, and our present incarnation in flesh is to enable us to become Gods ourselves. Such deification is offered to those who marry in a Mormon temple ceremony and have children, thus perpetuating the incarnational and deification processes. Such beliefs led to the practice of polygamy (now discontinued), and the current emphasis on family life. Early Mormons were looking for the coming of God's kingdom, and this was to be fulfilled by following the directions from Smith's revelations. This necessitated the setting up of a theocratic state, and resulted in repeated persecutions during Smith's lifetime until, after his death, "the Saints" (as they were called) were forced under the leadership of Brigham Young to settle in the (then) isolated area which has since become the State of Utah where the theocratic experiment could proceed. When Western expansion in the USA lead to Utah's absorption into the Union, and Federal law resulted in a crackdown on polygamy, the Mormons could no longer be geographically isolated. This, in turn, meant that they had to isolate themselves spiritually by strict observances imposed by the leadership - and in this way were similar to JWs. Yet, the Mormons relate to the larger culture in a way which JWs do not.
So . . . read the Book of Mormon. Though you'll find it quite boring, and it is intimidating when the missionaries tell you that, by praying over it, you'll be convinced of its divine inspiration - this is important because you'll see that the book in itself does not support the fully developed Mormon religion.
Mormon America: The Power and the Promise was written by Richard N. Ostling and Joan K. Ostling, and published by HarperCollins. Written by non-Mormons, the book covers Mormon history, theology and practice.
No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet by Fawn M. Brodie (originally in 1945 but still in print) is a classic by an ex-Mormon taking a critical view of Smith's life and career.
Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition by Jan Shipps - a woman who moved to Utah, took up an interest in Mormonism (but not converting), and became a religious scholar in her own right. Her thesis is that Mormonism is a new religion which springs from, but is distinct from Christianity - similar to Christianity's being distinct from Judaism. This is not an easy read, but may give additional insights.
There is plenty of information on the internet - and in fact Mormonism is considered by many to be the "other" great American cult (other than JWs) - and there is no reason why anyone should be lead step by step into a conversion if they are wary of this religion.
 
parakeet
parakeet 10 years ago

I may get flamed again for recommending this book, but I'll risk it.
"Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer recounts Mormon history from its beginnings with Joseph Smith to the present-day splinter fundamentalist groups, one of which has been in the news lately. Although Qcmbr ridicules the author ("Krackpot Kraky"), Krakauer is a respected author who has appeared on CNN and other networks recently as an expert on Mormon fundamentalist groups, Warren Jeffs' notorious group in particular.
It's a fascinating book and I recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about Mormon history and beliefs -- both the standard LDS Church and its many splinter sects.
 
mckay
mckay 10 years ago

" "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer recounts Mormon history from its beginnings with Joseph Smith to the present-day splinter fundamentalist groups,....."
Yes, very good. Or try "Blood of the Prophets" Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley. That is good for a history of Mormomism in the 1800s in Utah, that is if you don't mind reading about the massacre about 127 women, children and men. All carried out by men of the Mormon Priesthood after Brigham Young set the stage for the event.
mckay
 
cognizant dissident
cognizant dissident 10 years ago

Two young LDS called on me and offered me the book of Mormon. I said I would like to take it as a reference book but I wasn't interested in studying or becoming Mormon. I am just interested in understanding the history of how different cultures developed their belief systems and religious practices. Well, I guess that made me a return visit because they kept coming back. I would listen to them because they reminded me of myself as a young pioneer. So sincere and zealous. Plus they were sweet and likeable.
I gave them a run for their money though. I would ask them why Joseph Smith wrote much of the Book of Mormon in olde english which was not in current use at the time of his writing, lifting many phrases directly out of the King James Version of the Bible. I also asked them why the archeological and anthropological records show no evidence of a lost tribe of Israel migrating to America or even of them existing where they were supposed to have originated from. They didn't have any answers, they gave me websites and book titles to look up if I was interested in archeological proof. However, they warned me against looking at anti-Mormon sites and told me it was not necessary to do this research to know the book of Mormon was a divine revelation. All, I had to do was read a couple of key scriptures and pray for God to open my heart. I told them I had done so, and it didn't convince me. They said they just "know" it is true. I told them they are going to have to do a little better than that. They just looked at me with a mixture of sadness and pity. I'm guessing they wrote me off because my heart was not rightly disposed to "see" the truth of what Joseph Smith revealed.
The ironic thing about this is these conversations caused me to examine Witness teachings and how I "know" what I know is true and demand the same standard of evidence. Of course they couldn't stand up either. So, in a way, the Mormon's were instrumental in me leaving the Witnesses. Life is funny sometimes!
Cog
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 10 years ago




This thread is sad because of the many ignorant comments being made against a people whom most of you seem to know nothing about other than some rumors you've heard or read but never bothered to check out for yourselves. Then when someone who actually is a practicing Mormon suggests your information is less than correct, you mock us and say we are brainwashed, or don't know our own religion, or some other such tripe. Very disrespectful of you.
JimTX, you said:
While visiting the 'temple', I learned something that was a bit disconcerting to me... and that is that if a Mormon family wants to - they can get 'baptized' (I believe that's the term) - in the name of an ancester - and be 'joined' to them - supposedly for when they die and go to heaven.

Not sure that bit makes sense in type - but basically - if I understood it correctly - they can get great-grandmaw 'joined' to the Mormons - even after she's dead and long gone - even if she wasn't a Mormon - or didn't want anything to do with them.
Of course... I saw it as a really cool con that the Mormons have figured out - cause you know that there is a 'fee' involved for this 'service'.
Well, no. There is not one red cent charged as a fee for this service. You don't even have to be Mormon to have it done, if you want it, though Mormons would be the ones doing the work for you. As with all that we do, Temple work is free. The workers volunteer their time. Nobody makes us do that. It is a free choice.
You can also spend a fortune buying geneology how-to books, taking classes, hiring geneologists to research your lines, and so on. Or you can go online to the LDS (Mormon) website and download the free programs that enable anyone to do the research. You can go to any of the thousands of Family History Centers for free, use their computers for free, have the volunteers there assist you for free. You can even go to the huge main center in Salt Lake and use their geneological facilities at no charge.
We also host Preparedness Fairs, open to the public at no charge, with information that will help people with practical matters such as how to make out a Living Will, how to care for elderly relatives, or other needful information everyone might need. If you don't want to attend such events, the same information is available online at the same website. You don't even need to give any personal information to obtain it, so nobody will bother you.
I know it's a foreign concept to many people, but some people actually do try to do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do.

Susan
 
oldflame
oldflame 10 years ago

2) I believe they also practice shunning. Does anyone know how severe?




 I did some work for a doctor several years back. I told him I was an excommunicated Mormon and that maybe he should not use me to do his remodeling on his office. He said why would that matter ? I replied that I know the JW's shun their members who have fallen away and I thought they did also as I never had been in a situation when I was in where I could remember shunning an ex Mormon. He said we do not shun ex members because we believe that it is by our love for them that we believe brings them back. I was impressed with this answer but not enough to go get involved with them because they are another cult just like the JW's.
A couple of years ago I had to Mormon Missionaries come to my door. I asked them if it would be okay if I got my bible ? They agreed to it. I came back asked them if they would like something to drink they did not except and that was okay. I asked them if they believe that Jesus was the grace by which we are saved ? I already knew their answer as I was one once too. They said yes he is and we believe that. I said so if a person excepts Jesus as their personal saviour and lives a life according to the laws set by God that why would not that person be granted the gift that is promised. (Eternal Life) They both stood up and said our work is done here and I never seen them again.
I was baptised when I was fourteen and excommunicated at 19 for wanting to marry the mother of my son before he was born. I told the Bishop that I felt guilty about my son being born without married parents. He excommunicated me for fornication..They first tried to remove my pregnant girlfriend from my house. They came over one night shortly after I had went to the Bishop and told me that she had to leave now ! I was pissed, I had a walking tall club that sat next to my front door and I pulled it up and said step one foot in my front door and I'll take your freakin head off. They left and a week later I got the excommunication papers in the mail.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Oldflame - I'm sorry you felt treated incorrectly - in cases of a similar nature that I've known about we tend to bend over backwards to arrange a free wedding for the individuals in your position - I wouldn't recommend though threatening as a sign of repentence - in fact although I think you chose the right thing to do (marriage - but I say that without any understanding about whether this actually would be the right thing to do regarding love, ability to raise a child, emotional stability or financial ability) but you didn't seem at worried by the actual initial sin - you seem to have actually warranted excommunication which is normally the course taken when someone is unrepentent (young people who are repentent tend to be disfellowshipped but nothing more and that amounts to being unable to take the sacrament and not participating actively in meetings.) Feel free to clarify.
You can look at the history of the LDS church from several viewpoints:
1/ Christian - but then a cursory look at any christian history finds the Moses murders (how many first born, Egyptian soldiers, task overseer, Israelites though summary execution, indigenous peoples in genocide and people picking up sticks), the shocking polygamous affairs of the anointed and sexual shenanigans of daughters sleeping with their Father (who remains a prophet), bribery by a Prophet to keep a whore (who was actually his relative)quiet, apostles arguing over who is greatest, one apostles openly denying Christ 3 times(greatest sin?) yet still leading church thereafter, an apostle betraying the Saviour for money then committing suicide. Let's break this down even more specifically:
Catholics and Protestants - how many wars? burning at the stake? torture to extract confession? Corrupt popes, kings, queens, clergy, sale of indulgences, praying to saints, pogroms, preaching by the sword and all the other shame that has been poured down on christianity but of course isn't mentioned.
Modern day child churches of the above: Corrupt paid preachers on TV, alteration of bible teachings at will (but no let's pick on any doctrine of the LDS we don't like and be a little hypocritical), absolute denial of modern day revelation as a source of information (where are their prophets? - why are there so many churches all vying for converts without any recognizable authority?), Millerism madness (false prophets anyone?), fundamentalist denial of truth (6 day creationists).
2/ Other religions - Wars galore, suppression of women, violent application of religious law, mutilation as devotion, genocide, promotion and veneration of man made idols.
3/ Non-believers - why start with the LDS - the madness surely is most easily laid at the foot of Jewish messianic prophesies and the one who pretended to fulfill them. Of course many non-believers have identified religions they don't like as a fundamental problems and historically have tried to wipe them out (Hitler, Communist society, the beloved US government V LDS, Bosnians, Darfur). I don't think modern day capitalist society can sit in any kind of moral judgement upon anybody.
So those who love to read books opposed to the Mormon church do you feel any shame or disgust for the crimes perpetrated upon Mormon society by your representatives:
Murders, rapes, theft, tarring and feathering, burning of sacred religious sites, forced genocidal expulsions (twice) with wholesale theft of property, ordering an unjust war against these people (yes - lovers of US freedom - your government went to war against a whole religion - unthinkable in the country set up to protect (religious) freedoms), forcing an entire people to flee across the plains of America deep in Indian territory where they were attacked and harrassed by the locals. If all you can come up with is the polygamy issue and the absolutely unproven leadership links to the Mountain Meadows Massacre then I'll stick with the good guys.
P.S. You owe us a couple of stolen counties please.
 
oldflame
oldflame 10 years ago

Qcmbr,
I am not angry at the Mormons for their decision to excommunicate me, infact it is just the opposite it was the best thing that ever happened to me. With what I know today about cult faiths it is a damn good thing I am not a Mormon just like I am happy as a clam not being involved in cult faiths and the Mormons fit right in there with the rest.
I only threatened them when they thought they were going to enter my home against my will to remove the woman whom I had been living with for some time. The mother of my child. It was my responsibility to take care of her and not the Morons.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I've never known of any case when forceable removal of individuals was undertaken by the church (my uncle once forceably removed someone who was stalking my wife to be but that's family legend.) Sounds very much to me as though you had already left the LDS church in all but name.
 
praiseband
praiseband 10 years ago

Q- how are you? You and I have had friendly dialogues in the past and I hope it will always be that way. I agree with you, that violence against others to force your religious beliefs on them is wrong. The Christian church has a lot to be ashamed of in its past. However, even your Mormon heritage (as in prior to Joseph Smith) has the very same background. Your church says the Bible is one of the sacred books and this Biblical history is a part of your heritage also. So, I hope you weren't referring to only the other churches who call themselves Christian in item #1. Next, you asked "why are there so many churches all vying for converts without any recognizable authority?" There is a recognizable authority in Christian churches and it is Jesus Christ. No one else. That is what separates us in our beliefs. I joined this website so I could learn about others, not to be combative. I believe it is quite possible for people to have discussions without being mean-spirited or vicious. Most of the time on this website it is that way, and even very humorous! I have learned much and hope to continue.
Praise
 
mckay
mckay 10 years ago

qcmbr, you seem to have the narrow view of mormism that comes from recieving your knowledge of church history from LDS source only. Branch out and try those evil driven non-mormon's writings of church history, maybe they're not all lies. And maybe the LDS source of history is a little biased as is everything written.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread again as it's probably the wrong place for a mormon discussion but since it came back to the top again I'll give it a go.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I do read lots of ex-lds / anti-LDS work. I just come to a different conclusion.
Praise - I get combative when I feel threatened especially by two of my pet hates:
1/ The 'I've had a bad experience' line of argument that then uses logic to suggest that idea/church/group x is all like that. The world is full of offended people looking for validation in pulling down others structures.
2/ The personal attackers - there is a thin line between discussing / critiquing an idea and turning it into a personal assault (I am not guiltless.)
The difficulty for me is wanting to share 'me' in an online forum where the rules of normal social contact are (quite rightly) not applicable - its hard for me to switch off the feelings and so my posts will often swing between concilitary / harsh / incredulous / daft depending on how I feel. In my smarter moments I walk away from conflict but I have a short fuse and I am easily sucked in. As (mostly) ex-JWs you know that when you loved your religion an attack on it was personal - its normal clan behaviour - and just like Scholar and thirdwitness its hard to shut up and put up when people are throwing rocks at your house. Real religion is never found in dogma but when we discuss it it often seems to dissolve into that.
I'm off to bed before I offend anyone else:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
oldflame
oldflame 10 years ago

Qcmbr,
I am not offended by anything you stated in you remarks. I really don't care about Mormon religion because after all it is just another cult. They create lies in order to control. Well guess what, I am proud to say I am no longer a Mormon because now in my life I have a true ruler which is Christ. No matter what happened in my past with the Mormons I have never made an excuse for my actions. I believe and will die in order to protect my Family or Friends and by no means will anyone enter my home without my permission, without coming into a conflict by me.
So when the Elder stuck his foot in my door to keep me from shutting my door that was the point where I step in and do the right thing and protect my home and family. Maybe you would be corwardly and let the intruder in I don't know but it is not my attitude. I was merely sharing a experience with the Morons and I. I went to that Bishop in good faith, no one asked me too or threaten me to go tell the Bishop.
Today I could careless about Mormon religion as I now know that it is just another cult just like the JW's so making snide remarks about my moment in history does not offend me because I really don't give a rats ass.
 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
thought i sent this an hour ago, but apparently it didn't go.
for about a year morman elders called on us off and on.
finally clyde called it off.. but recently a new set of elders started coming.



Related Topics
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment a month ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/117738/we-return-visit-mormans?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I was turned down by the Mormons.....lol
/  





 

I was turned down by the Mormons.....lol
by whyamihere 10 years ago 21 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago

Yeah, they are not coming back anymore......lol
I guess as they told me, I bashed their beliefs and their religion - I don't accept the Gospel of Jesus and Joseph Smith in to my heart....lol
Dammit, I was having fun with them too. I proved them wrong, and they couldn't answer my questions. They told me, I didn't pray well enough to the Book of Mormon and that's why I am too unfaithfully technical. What the hell? All my questions and statements were answered with, "We know its the truth" "Our prayers are answered by god and we know this is right". I told them I have prayed too, but God is telling me they are wrong. "What if their "Prophets" think they are talking to god, yet they are not and it is just a voice in their head?" People are in institutes with flashy straight jackets living in a padded room because they think they talk with god. They didn't like that comment, because "They know its true, they prayed about it!"
I have been told many times that I need to have faith in God and the men who are instructed by god. Yeah, they are not coming back and I was just getting warmed up.
Brooke
 
lonelysheep
lonelysheep 10 years ago

Yeah, I don't think they'll be visiting you, again!
You couldn't be convinced, you bad girl!
 
bebu
bebu 10 years ago

I've been in that circular argument, too. You really get dizzy!!
"What if I pray... and I don't get the answer you do?"
"Pray again!"
Actually, I would rather ask them if God thinks we should pray whether adultery is alright. The answer should be no, of course, for the answer is already given. And so, if all indications are that Joseph Smith was a pious fraud, and false prophet to boot, why on earth would I pray about something I already have the answer to? (Hint, Deut 18)
Their fraud issues have to be resolved before I can ever pray with a clear conscience. And I have never seen any reasonable resolution--just "pray harder".
bebu
 
JH
JH 10 years ago

I hate talking about religion no matter who knocks at my door. Everybody thinks they have the truth.
I just say thank you and good bye.
Gee, I must have been a cat in my previous life.... cause I'm so independent
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

with your alcohol consumption honey , there is no way they would let you becomea Mormon
 
thecarpenter
thecarpenter 10 years ago

Yes, you are a bad girl in need of a spanking
thecarpenter of the volunteer to spank class.
 
ButtLight
ButtLight 10 years ago

You are totally whacked Brooke! And thats all I have to say! (go play with the catholics now)
 
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago

with your alcohol consumption honey , there is no way they would let you becomea Mormon
Not just that, you can't have Coffee......lol. I'm screwed before I get into their church.
(go play with the catholics now)
Oh I have, they don't play with me either.....lol.
 
JH
JH 10 years ago

go play with the catholics now


 
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago

Yes, you are a bad girl in need of a spanking




**bends over** I am bored now, who wants to play????
 
ButtLight
ButtLight 10 years ago

I am bored now, who wants to play????
I DO!!! I DO!!!
 
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago


I am bored now, who wants to play????
I DO!!! I DO!!!
Oh no, every time I play with you, I'm holding your hair back so you can drink more - and I am the one getting unwanted action by minors....lol
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 10 years ago

Brooke - I jus' knew ya' would't join em. I knew it!
They are as cock and bull as the witnesses I fear. Especially the part about having the golden platter [or whatever it was that JS recieved from the angel Moroni] taken back to heaven. Just like the ole' witness trick - make it invisible and then no one can disprove it.
They used to visit me in town sometimes - now we are out of town and they don't work out here I guess. Too far on a bicycle. Hehe.
Jeff
 
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago

Brooke - I jus' knew ya' would't join em. I knew it!
You know me too well....lol. I can''t join something with no alcohol and coffee. Come on that's all my calorie intake.
I should start my own Religion...."Clothing optional!"
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 10 years ago

Speaking of alcohol - did you guys have your Cheezefest yet? Or is that coming up this month?
Don't forget ours on Sept 9 - hope you and Buttlight can make it - I better bttt that thread soon.
Jeff
 
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago

did you guys have your Cheezefest yet? Or is that coming up this month?
Nope, the 19th of this month - you would notice if we had it. Butt and I would be all over the site with pictures!
 
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 10 years ago

Yeah, they are not coming back and I was just getting warmed up.
Were they cute? LOL
There was a couple who came over to see me back when I was a faithful JW and we used to have discussions. We both placed bibles with each other; the two guys didnt have the NWT bible and I didnt have a copy of the book of mormon and they never bothered to come back after they couldn't convince me they had the truth.

LRG
 
whyamihere
whyamihere 10 years ago

Were they cute? LOL
NO! I need a few's to think they were cute.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 10 years ago

It is just to JW like.
The best is when you get JWs to argue with mormons. It's like on of the great paradoxes of the universe.
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 10 years ago

Latter Day Saints believe that G-d gave Mormons a law of health, known as the Word of Wisdom, in 1833. This religious doctrine speaks against use of tobacco, alcohol, coffee, tea, and illegal drugs with the intention of keeping bodies and minds healthy and strong.
Who'd want to be a Mormon anyway? I'd want them to turn me down with all those rules.
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 6 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment a month ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/117944/turned-down-mormons-lol






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I was turned down by the Mormons.....lol
/  





 

I was turned down by the Mormons.....lol
by whyamihere 10 years ago 21 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 10 years ago


"Our prayers are answered by god and we know this is right".
I told them I have prayed too, but God is telling me they are wrong.
LOL! Well played!
Rodney Dangerfield: "Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door, then said THEY weren't interested!"
Dave
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 10 years ago

NOTHING TO DO WITH POST BUT!!!
When I was 16 I had a Mormom girlfriend, we went to a Mormon dance at (what do they call their church) anyway, we were slow dancing, and some Mormom lady came up to us with a wooden ruler and spaced us apart, after a while of being watched by this lady we left the dance, got into her car, started making out had her bra off, and just when I was getting to the good part, KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK on the window, I jumped to the drivers seat and took off. HA HA HA damn cock blocking Mormons
 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
yeah, they are not coming back anymore......lol.
i guess as they told me, i bashed their beliefs and their religion - i don't accept the gospel of jesus and joseph smith in to my heart....lol.
dammit, i was having fun with them too.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 6 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment a month ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/117944/turned-down-mormons-lol?page=2&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ President Eisenhower and his Jehovah's Witness background.
/  





 

President Eisenhower and his Jehovah's Witness background.
by Joker10 13 years ago 14 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
5
10
20
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


President Eisenhower's JW Background.
Introduction
The story of the religious upbringing of the Eisenhower boys is critically important in understanding both the Watchtower and the boys themselves. The most dominant religious influence in the Eisenhower home from the time the boys were young was Watchtower theology and beliefs. Both parents were deeply involved and highly committed to much of the Watchtower theology throughout most of their children's formative years. Ida probably took the lead religiously, and David Eisenhower later became disillusioned with many Watchtower teachings; nonetheless the religion also influenced him later in life.
As adults, none of the Eisenhower boys formally followed the Witness teachings and theology and even tried to hide their Jehovah's Witness upbringing. The eldest son, Arthur, once stated that he could not accept the religious dogmas of his parents although he had "his mother's religion" in his heart (Kornitzer, 1955:64).
Although none of Mrs. Eisenhower's boys were what she and other Witnesses called "in the truth," she was hopeful that they would someday again embrace the religion in which they were raised. They openly rejected much of the Watchtower theology and medical ideas, especially its eschatology and millennial teachings. Nonetheless their Witness upbringing clearly influenced them. Even in later life, Dwight preferred "the informal church service" with "vigorous singing and vigorous preaching" like he grew up with (Dodd, 1963:233). Ida was relatively supportive of them during most of their careers, often stating that she was proud of them and their accomplishments, even those achievements that violated her Watchtower faith.



 Born on October 14, 1890 at Denison, Texas, Dwight D. Eisenhower became the thirty-fourth President of the United States. He served for two terms, from 1953 to 1961. His parents, David and Ida Eisenhower, owned a modest two-story white framed house on South 4th Street in Abilene, Kansas. Ida, a frugal hard-working woman, planted a large garden on their three acre lot to raise much of the family's produce needs. Neal claimed that the Eisenhower's were able to feed their growing family only because of this small farm which included cows, chickens, a smokehouse, fruit trees and a large vegetable garden (Neal, 1984). Dwight and his five brothers (Arthur (b. 1886), Roy (b. 1892), Earl (b. 1898), and Milton (b. 1899) plus David) were raised in Abilene, Kansas.
The values of Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower's parents and their home environment reflected themselves in the enormous success of all of their children. Probably the most dominant influence in the Eisenhower home was religion, primarily the Jehovah's Witnesses (known as Bible Students until 1931) and to a much lesser extent the River Brethren (Dodd, 1994).
Both parents were active in the Watchtower during most of the Eisenhower children's formative years. Eisenhower's mother, Ida Eisenhower, stated she became involved with the Watchtower in 1895 when she was 34 and Dwight was only five years old (Cole, 1955:190). Ida was baptized in 1898, meaning she was then a Jehovah's Witnesses minister.
Furthermore, Ida did not flirt with her involvement in the Witnesses as claimed by some but "was a faithful member of Jehovah's Witnesses for 50 years" (Fleming 1955:1). In Dwight's words she had "an inflexible loyalty to her religious convictions." According to the current Watchtower president Milton G. Henshel, "Ida Eisenhower was one of the most energetic [Watchtower] preachers in Abilene" (Fleming, 1955:1). The Watchtower Society had a major religious influence on Dwight until 1914 when he went to West Point (Dodd, 1959; Eisenhower, 1969).



Ida grew up in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley and originally attended a Lutheran Church. Hutchinson concluded Ida showed a "deep interest in religion from her earliest years" (1954:364). As a school girl Ida studied the Bible extensively and quoted freely from it--she once memorized 1,365 Biblical verses in six months, a fact cited with pride by several of her sons (Neal, 1984:13). The Sunday school records in the Lutheran Church at Mount Sidney near Staunton, Virginia, still contain her Bible memorizing record.
Eisenhower's parents met when they were both students at a small United Brethren college in Lecompton, Kansas called Lane University. After they married at Lecompton on September 23, 1885, they both dropped out of college (Hatch, 1944). Although they each completed only one term, their desire for education persisted--and reflected itself in their strong support for their sons' educations (Kornitzer, 1955). Evidently it was Ida's husband who introduced Ida to the group popularly called River Brethren partly because many of his relatives were involved in this community.
Neither David or Ida ever became deeply involved in this sect, although, it is often incorrectly stated that "Ida and David Eisenhower were River Brethren" (Miller, 1987:77-78). David's father Jacob and his brothers Ira and Abraham were members, but Ike's cousin, the Reverend Ray L. Witter, son of A.L. Witter, claimed that, although Ida and David came to Brethren services for several years, neither was ever an actual member nor did they regularly attend for any length of time (Miller, 1987:77-78; Dodd, 1959:221).
Close family friend R.C. Tonkin even stated that he "never knew any of the family to attend the River Brethren Church" (Tonkin, 1952:48). Both church records and oral history indicate that Dwight attended around 1906 for less than a year (Sider, 1994). Note: The term River Brethren is commonly used in the literature which discusses President Eisenhower, but the officially registered name during the Civil War and after is The Brethren in Christ Church. The term River Brethren is used here because virtually all references to Eisenhower's religion use this term. This term caught on because the first churches were located near rivers.
Evidence that Dwight may have occasionally attended Sunday school at Abilene's River Brethren Church includes the claim by John Dayhoff (listed in the 1906 church records as a member of Dwight's class) that he went to Sunday school with him. When Dwight did attend according to the regular teacher, Ida Hoffman, he evidently "never seemed to pay any attention or take any interest in the lesson" (Davis, 1952:49). Three of the Eisenhower children including Dwight are listed in the 1906 Souvenir Report of the Brethren Sunday School of Abilene, Kansas as involved in the church, but no mention is made of their parents. The listing of the three boys was likely partly due to the influence of Jacob, Dwight's grandfather, an active River Brethren Church minister until his death in May of 1906.
When David's Uncle Abraham, a self-taught veterinarian, decided to became an itinerant preacher he rented his house to David on the condition that Jacob could live there (Lyon, 1974; Dodd, 1963). David Eisenhower's family then moved into Abraham's house at 201 Southeast Fourth Street. David was also connected with the River Brethren through his employment at the church-owned Bella Springs Creamery. He worked at the Creamery from the time he moved to Abilene until he retired (Ambrose, 1983:19-20).
The many other relatives and friends who were River Brethren also likely had some influence on Dwight's religious development. He was physically and emotionally surrounded by aunts, uncles, grandfathers and a great-grandfather, most of whom were lay members or preachers in one of the Brethren or Holiness sects (Dodd, 1994). Gladys Dodd concluded the Brethren, whom Dwight joined on occasion for worship, "were a clannish lot, glued together by common ties of unique appearance and modes of baptism, abhorrence of war, and the like" (Dodd, 1994:1).




A major catalyst that precipitated Dwight's parents leaving the River Brethren and joining the Watchtower involved Ike's eight-month old brother, Paul, who died of diphtheria in 1895. This tragedy devastated the Eisenhower's, and the theological explanation that Paul is in heaven provided by the River Brethren did not satisfy them. At this time, three neighborhood women were able to comfort the Eisenhower's with the hope that they would soon see their son. This comfort was the Russellite teaching that death was merely sleep, and that all those in the grave will be resurrected shortly. In 1895 it was taught that this resurrection would occur in the new world which was expected to arrive before 1914, a mere nine years away then (Gruss, 1976). The three women - Mrs. Clara Witt, Mrs. Mary Thayer, and Mrs. Emma Holland - also sold Ida a set of volumes which were then titled Millennial Dawn (later renamed Studies in the Scriptures) and a subscription to Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, now named The Watchtower. Ida soon became involved and influenced her husband to join a short time later.
David and Ida's interest in Armageddon (the war the Watchtower teaches God will destroy all of the wicked, i.e. all non Witnesses) and the imminent return of Christ was highly influenced by the Watchtower preoccupation with end times events, especially the date of Armageddon. Likely, too, other acquaintances aside from Watchtower followers shared an interest in end-times date predicting including by their uncles Abraham and Ira, both of whom were evidently influenced by the end-times date speculation of the Tabor, Iowa evangelistic sect called the Hephzibah Faith Missionary Association (Dodd, 1994:2).
Dodd concluded from her extensive study of the Eisenhower family religious involvement that Ida soon became a "faithful and dedicated Witness and actively engaged as [a] colporteur [missionary] for the Watch Tower Society until her death" (Dodd, 1959:245). Soon the force that dominated the lives of everyone who lived in the Eisenhower frame house in Abilene was religion (Kornitzer, 1955:134). Dwight Eisenhower's faith was "rooted in his parents' Biblical heritage," and the Eisenhower boys' upbringing was "steeped" in religion (Fox 1969:907; Lyon, 1974:38).
The Eisenhower's held weekly Watchtower meetings in their parlor where the boys took turns reading from and discussing Watchtower publications and Scripture. Dwight Eisenhower was also involved in these studies--he claimed that he had read the Bible completely through twice before he was eighteen (Jameson, 1969:9). Ambrose concluded that the degree of religious involvement of the Eisenhower boys was so extensive that
David read from the Bible before meals, then asked a blessing. After dinner, he brought out the Bible again. When the boys grew old enough, they took turns reading. Ida organized meetings of the ... Watchtower Society, which met on Sundays in her parlor. She played her piano and led the singing. Neither David nor Ida ever smoked or drank, or played cards, or swore, or gambled (Ambrose 1983:19-20).
This upbringing no doubt had a major influence on all of the Eisenhower boys. R.G. Tonkin estimated that when the Eisenhower boys were young the size of the class was "about fifteen people" (1952:48).
The Watchtower followers met in Eisenhower's home until 1915 when the growth of the local congregation forced them to rent a local hall for their services. Later a large Watchtower meeting house (now called a Kingdom Hall) was built in Abilene (Dodd, 1959:244). The composition of early Russellite group in Abilene is described by Dodd as follows:
Mary Thayer first introduced the Watch Tower to the Eisenhower's. This company together with L.D. Toliver and the R.O. Southworths constituted the nucleus of the Abilene congregation of Russellites. From 1896 until 1915, the Bible Students ... met on Sunday afternoons at the Eisenhower home for their meetings. During most of this twenty year period, David Eisenhower (and occasionally L.D. Toliver) served the class as the Bible-study conductor, or "elder" as the group called its leader (1959:236).
Ida remained active in the Watchtower her whole life. In a letter to a fellow Witness Ida stated she has "been in the truth since ninety six [1896 and I] ... am still in ... it has been a comfort to me ... Naomi Engle stay [sic] with me and she is a witness too so my hope [sic] are good" (Fleming, 1955:3; Cole, 1955:192).



Dwight was also influenced by the religious ideas of his father, David Eisenhower. Although his early upbringing was in the River Brethren and he briefly attended the Lutheran, then later the Methodist church before and during his college days, he converted to the Watchtower a few years after his wife did. David Eisenhower actively served the Watchtower for many years as an elder and Bible study conductor, a role which he occasionally alternated with L.D. Toliver (Dodd, 1959:225). Neal even claimed that David Eisenhower was led by the Watchtower into "mysticism" because of David's use of "an enormous wall chart" of the Egyptian pyramids to predict the future. David taught his boys Watchtower last-days theology from this chart when they were growing up. The ten feet high and six feet wide chart "according to David . . . contained prophecies for the future as well as confirmation of biblical events. Captivated by the bizarre drawing . . . [Dwight] spent hours studying David's creation" (Neal, 1984:13).
This pyramid chart was of the Pyramid of Giza in Egypt and in fact was a central teaching of the Bible Students (Dodd, 1959:242). The chart was first published by the Watchtower in Millennial Dawn, Vol. 1 in 1898 and a large wall size version was available later. The chart played a prominent role in Watchtower theology for more than 35 years and was of such importance to David that his
. . . religious beliefs materialized in the form of an impressive (five or six feet high, ten feet long) wall chart of the Egyptian pyramids, by means of which he proved to his own satisfaction that the lines of the pyramids--outer dimensions, inner passageways, angles of chambers, and so on--prophesied later Biblical events and other events still in the future. As might be expected, this demonstration fascinated his children; the chart came to be one of the family's most prized possessions (Lyon, 1974:38).
Russell obtained from the Pyramid many of his prophesies, especially the year 1914 when the end of the world was expected to occur (Franz, 1993:20). The pyramid was also used to confirm Watchtower dispensational theology. Earl Eisenhower claimed that his father used the chart when he was in the Watchtower to prove "to his own satisfaction that the Bible was right in its prophecies" (Kornitzer, 1955:136).
The pyramid was of such major importance to early Watchtower theology that a huge ten foot concrete pyramid was selected as a fitting memorial to C. T. Russell when he died. It still stands close to Russell's grave near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Russell specifically condemned mysticism as demonism and taught that the pyramid had nothing to do with mysticism but was a second revelation, a "Bible in stone" which both added to and confirmed the Holy Scripture record (Russell, 1904:313-376).
A few years later, the second president of the Watchtower, Joseph F. Rutherford, condemned the pyramid teaching in no uncertain terms, one of many of his doctrinal changes that initiated several Watchtower schisms (Rutherford, 1928; Dodd, 1959:243). Dodd noted that the chart was still in the family home as late as 1944, but in 1957 she could no longer locate it in either the family home or the Eisenhower museum nearby and learned that the chart and other Watchtower effects were disposed of (Dodd, 1959:242-243). Dodd concluded the Watchtower items were probably destroyed by the family to reduce their embarrassment over their parents' involvement in the Jehovah's Witnesses. David's commitment to the Watchtower eventually changed and later he openly became an opposer.
Dodd concludes that "by 1919 David Eisenhower's interest in Russell had definitely waned and before his death in 1942 he is said to have renounced the doctrine of Russell" (1959:224). In a letter to Edward Ford, David stated that one factor causing his disillusionment with the Watchtower was the failure of their end of the world prophecies including 1914 and 1915 (Ford, 1995). After he left the Watchtower fellowship, his son Arthur claimed that David remained a student of the Scriptures, and his religious "reading habits were confined to the Bible, or anything related to the Bible" but not Watchtower literature. Although, the Bible was central to David Eisenhower's thinking, Milton added that his father also "read history, serious magazines, newspapers, and religion literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:261).
Edgar Eisenhower stated that his father left the Watchtower partly because he "couldn't go along with the sheer dogma that was so much a part of their thinking." His sons later adamantly claimed that David accompanied his wife on Watchtower activities primarily in an effort to appease her. Watchtower accounts usually referred only to Ida as a Witness, supporting the conclusion that David had left the Watchtower after 1915.
David Eisenhower died in March of 1942 at the age of 78. At this time Ida's nurse, Naomi Engle, was, "a strong-willed Witness who arranged a Jehovah's Witness funeral for David even though he had made it clear before his death that he was no longer a [Watchtower] believer" (Miller, 1987:80). The service was conducted by Witness James L. Thayer assisted by another Witness, Fred K. Southworth.




The Eisenhower's Watchtower involvement created many family conflicts. The Russellites taught that the Brethren and all other churches were not pleasing to God. Their second president, lawyer Joseph F. Rutherford (1916-1942), viciously attacked all religion with slogans such as all "religion is a snare and a racket" (Dodd, 1959). The Watchtower under Rutherford even taught all priests and ministers are of Satan leading their flocks to eternal damnation (Bergman, 1999). As a result of this and other teachings, Dodd observed that the River Brethren and other denominations at the turn of the century:
... were rabidly opposed to Russellism. As late as 1913 ... the Evangelical Visitor advertised a pamphlet entitled "The Blasphemous Religion which teaches the Annihilation of Jesus Christ" as the "best yet publication against Russellism" and the editor thought every River Brethren minister should read it. In 1928, one of the Brethren ministers, Abraham Eisenhower (David's brother), wrote to the Evangelical Visitor concerning Russellism: "Oh, fool-hearted nonsense. It is the devil's asbestos blanket to cover up the realities of a hell fire judgment. The word of God will tear off this infamous lie and expose the realities of an existence of life after death." This strong statement would reflect the general attitude of most of the Eisenhower's (Dodd, 1959:246).
The River Brethren have much in common with the Mennonites, and both were once called "the plain people" because of their simple lifestyle and dress. Although the sect has generally modernized and even in the early 1900s they no longer placed as much emphasis on details of clothing as formerly, they were still comparatively strict in the 1800s. Marriage could be dissolved only by death, hard physical work was a prime virtue, and after the turn of the century members could not use or even grow tobacco.
The early Watchtower teachings were also similar in some ways to the River Brethren, both of which have in major ways changed since the Eisenhower's became involved in 1895 (Dodd, 1959). Furthermore, "a number of the River Brethren had become followers of Russell" (Dodd, 1959:234). Although major differences existed especially in doctrine, the many similarities include both groups were pietistic Protestant conservative sects opposed to war, although on somewhat different grounds. Both sects also stressed the importance of Biblical study, both condemned many worldly habits and both were then very concerned about the last days prophesy and eschatology.




Dwights religious background is discussed by many writers, but most contain much misinformation. The misinformation about the religion of Dwight's parents is compounded by the fact that many Eisenhower biographies and even writings by the Eisenhower sons often declined to fully and honestly acknowledge their parents' actual religious affiliation (Fleming, 1955:1; Eisenhower, 1969). In a collection of personal recollections Edgar Eisenhower admitted only
Our parents' religious interests switched to a sect known as the Bible Students. The meetings were held at our house, and everyone made his own interpretation of the Scripture lessons. Mother played the piano, and they sang hymns before and after each meeting. It was a real old time prayer meeting. They talked to God, read Scriptures, and everyone got a chance to state his relationship with Him. Their ideas of religion were straightforward and simple. I have never forgotten those Scripture lessons, nor the influence they have had on my life. Simple people taking a simple approach to God. We couldn't have forgotten because mother impressed those creeds deep in our memories. Even after I had grown up, every letter I received from her, until the day she died, ended with a passage from the Bible (McCullun, 1960:21).
Even President Eisenhower's spiritual mentor and close friend, Billy Graham, was led to believe that Eisenhower's parents "had been River Brethren, a small but devoutly pious group in the Mennonite tradition." Many authors referred to the Watchtower faith only as "fundamentalists" or "Bible students," the latter term the Jehovah's Witnesses used only up until 1931 (Beschloss, 1990; Knorr, 1955). Lyon even stated
The specific nature of the religion is uncertain. The parents appear to have left the River Brethren for a more primitive and austere sect, something referred to as the Bible Students, and they would later gravitate to the evangelical sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses (Lyon, 1974:38).
Bela Kornitzer mentions only that the Eisenhower's were "Bible Students," had "fundamentalist religious beliefs" and studied "the writings of 'Pastor Russell'" but does not mention that Russell was the Watchtower founder (1955:14, 22, 32). (When Russell died in 1916 his writings were almost immediately replaced those of the new president, "Judge" J.F. Rutherford, resulting in several major schisms in the movement and their transformation into Jehovah's Witnesses).
Even works that include extensive discussions of Eisenhower's religious upbringing, such as the aforementioned Bela Kornitzer's book, discuss primarily his River Brethren religious background which had influenced Dwight primarily during his preschool years, if at all.
A Drew Pearson column stated that President Eisenhower's mother "once sold Bible tracts for the Jehovah's Witnesses," implying that she only flirted with the Witnesses and was never deeply involved (1956:6). Edmund Fuller and David Green, after claiming that Eisenhower's parents were River Brethren, noted that the President's grandfather was the Reverend Jacob Eisenhower, a Brethren minister, and that "the Eisenhower boys' religious training was strict, fundamentalist, and somewhat Puritanical. They were well schooled in Scripture" (1968:213).
Even more common is to totally omit the name of the predominant religion that Dwight was raised in and its importance in the Eisenhower boy's formative years (For example see Larson, 1968). In one of the most detailed histories of Eisenhower's early life, Davis said only that Ida later "sought out an even more 'primitive' and rigid Christianity" than River Brethren, leaving the reader up in the air as to what this group might be (1952:111). An extensive search by the author of the major depositories of President Eisenhower's letters and papers revealed he wrote virtually nothing about his feelings about the Watchtower or even religion in general except that reviewed here.
The Eisenhower boys' Watchtower background is not widely known or acknowledged likely also in part due to the antagonism many people had then, and still have today, against the Watchtower (Sellers, 1990). This antagonism is illustrated in the wording of a quote claiming that "late in life" Ida became, "of all things, a member of the sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses..." (Gunther, 1951:52).
Accounts of the Eisenhower family history commonly repeat the claim that Dwight's parents were River Brethren or were not directly involved with the Watchtower (Miller, 1944). Typical is a Time article that stated only that Ike's "parents were members of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect," adding that "along with their piety, the Eisenhower's gave their sons a creed of self-starting individualism" (Time, Apr. 4, 1969:20). Another account claims that Eisenhower's parents were members of a Protestant sect called the River Brethren and brought up their children in an old-fashioned atmosphere of puritanical morals. Prayer and Bible reading were a daily part of their lives. Violence was forbidden, though in a family of six boys the edict was a bit hard to enforce (Whitney, 1967:311).




According to Pearson, when confronted with his religious ancestry, David Eisenhower looked for a
delicate way to clear the family name of this affiliation. He is sensitive about the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in saluting the flag or serving under arms. At the same time, he doesn't want to appear prejudiced against any religious sect. Both Ike and his brother, Milton, have discussed the problem with spiritual advisors. But they haven't quite figured out how to disclaim Ida Eisenhower's relations with the Jehovah's Witnesses without offending the sect and perhaps stirring up charges of religious prejudice (Pearson, 1956:6).
Pearson also adds the often repeated claim that "Ida was influenced in her old age by a nurse who belonged to the sect. Being Bible-minded, old Mrs. Eisenhower cheerfully agreed to help the Jehovah's Witnesses peddle Bible tracts. Actually, both of Dwight's parents were staunch members of a small sect called River Brethren" (Pearson, 1956:6). Ironically in a Drew Pearson column published only three months earlier, Jack Anderson said, "Ike is strangely sensitive about his parents' religion. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, though the authorized biographies call them 'River Brethren....'
Both Dwight and his brother Milton checked the manuscript of Bela Kornitzer's book, 'Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers.' Afterward Milton privately asked Kornitzer to delete a reference to their parents' membership in the Witnesses sect" (Anderson, 1956:16b). In one of the last interviews given by the family, Milton said only that "we were raised as a fundamentalist family. Mother and father knew the Bible from one end to the other" (Quoted in Freeze, 1975:25). The Watchtower's response to this common omission was as follows:
Though Time magazine claimed Ida Stover Eisenhower was a member of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect, Time was merely continuing its consistent policy of slander in all that pertains to Jehovah's witnesses. She was never a River Brethren. She was one of Jehovah's witnesses. The first study in the Watchtower magazine in Abilene, Kans., started in her home in 1895. Her home was the meeting-place till 1915, when a hall was obtained. She continued a regular publisher with Jehovah's witnesses till 1942, when failing health rendered her inactive; but she remained a staunch believer (Knorr, 1946:7).
Kornitzer specifically endeavored to determine the source of Dwight Eisenhower's "greatness," concluding that it came from his family and their values. In Dwight's words, his mother was "deeply religious," and he once stated that his mother
had gravitated toward a local group known as The Bible Class. In this group, which had no church minister, she was happy. Sunday meetings were always held in the homes of members, including ours. The unusual program of worship included hymns, for which mother played the piano, and prayers, with the rest of the time devoted to group discussion of a selected chapter of the Bible (1967:305)..
Although the group preferred the label Bible Students before 1931, when they met they usually did not study the Bible but primarily Watchtower publications.
In the early 1900s the study focus was a set of books called Studies in the Scriptures written by C.T. Russell and his wife, and also the current issues of The Watchtower magazine. Although the Eisenhower boys usually skirted around the issue of their religious upbringing, Dwight Eisenhower once openly acknowledged that the group his parents were involved with was the Jehovah's Witnesses:
there was, eventually, a kind of loose association with similar groups throughout the country ... chiefly through a subscription to a religious periodical, The Watchtower. After I left home for the Army, these groups were drawn closer together and finally adopted the name of Jehovah's Witnesses (1967:305).
Eisenhower then adds, "They were true conscientious objectors to war. Though none of her sons could accept her conviction in this matter, she refused to try to push her beliefs on us just as she refused to modify her own" (1967:305). Conversely Dwight's mother was not happy about her sons violation of Watchtower beliefs especially their attitudes toward war.
Many reporters termed Dwight's mother "a religious pacifist" (for example see Life Magazine, 1969) as Dwight did. The Watchtower has established in the courts that they are not pacifists but conscientious objectors, opposed only to wars initiated and carried out by humans. The Watchtower teaches that involvement in war, except those that God wants us to fight, is not only a violation of God's law that "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shall love thy neighbor" but is also wrong because Watchtower doctrine considers it an improper use of time in these last days before Armageddon. They taught their followers to be dedicated to converting others before the end, which since the late 1800s has been taught by the Watchtower to be "just around the corner." They are in their words "conditional pacifists" although the Watchtower often argues against all war on pacifist grounds. In Dwight's words, his mother "was opposed to militarism because of her religious beliefs" (Kornitzer, 1955:87).
Jehovah's Witnesses then also eschewed all political involvement because they felt--and still teach today--that the soon-to-be-established kingdom of God on earth--the millennium--was the only solution to all worldly problems (Kornitzer, 1955:276). In Milton Eisenhower's words, his parents were as good Jehovah's Witnesses "more concerned with the millennium which, unfortunately, hadn't come in their day, than they were with contemporary social institutions" (Kornitzer, 1955:278). All of the Eisenhower boys disagreed with the Watchtower view in this area. Milton also stated his parents were aloof from politics but ". . . as I became older, I used to hold many conversations with them in a futile attempt to show them that they were wrong" (Kornitzer, 1955:277). Of course, as Watchtower followers, Ida and, until he left, David were not allowed to be involved in politics--even voting became a disfellowshipping offense in the 1940's.
Often Ida's alleged pacifism is given as the reason for her opposition to Ike's military career when the actual reason was Watchtower theology. An example was her reaction to his leaving for West Point in the summer of 1911, as reported by Pickett. At this time Dwight's
. . . mother and twelve-year-old brother Milton were the only family members there to see him off. His mother was unable to say a thing, Milton remembered, "I went out on the west porch with mother as Ike started uptown, carrying his suitcase, to take the train. Mother stood there like a stone statue and I stood right by her until Ike was out of sight. Then she came in and went to her room and bawled" (Pickett, 1995:8).
Alden Hatch, after recounting the consternation Ida had over Dwight attending West Point--to the extent she hoped he would fail the entrance exam so he would not go, claims that the reason was her "abhorrence to war" (Hatch, 1944:21). Ida's opposition was actually for several reasons, and consequently she hid from her sons her "weakened faith" and "grief" that resulted from Ike's pursuing a military career. The Eisenhower sons' embarrassment about their parents' involvement in the Watchtower is vividly revealed in the following account:
Both Ida and David, but especially Ida, were avid readers of The Watchtower, and at the time of Ida's death there was a fifty-year collection in the house on South East Fourth Street. The publication had arrived by mail from 1896 to 1946. It was Milton who bundled up the fifty-year collection of the presumably embarrassing magazines and got them out of the Eisenhower house and away from the eyes of reporters. He gave them to a neighbor and Witness (Miller, 1987:79).
The neighbor was Mrs. James L. Thayer, one of the women that originally converted Mrs. Eisenhower. The disposal of Dwight's parent's Watchtower literature, charts and other Watchtower items was only one indication of the many conflicts the Eisenhower boys likely experienced over their parent's esoteric religion. These conflicts may be one reason why none of them ever became involved in the Watchtower or even a fundamentalist church.
Another account illustrates the press' tendency to avoid revealing the Eisenhower parents' Watchtower involvement. When Ike graduated from West Point Military Academy in 1915, his mother presented to him a copy of the American Standard version of the Bible used by the Watchtower because it consistently used the term "Jehovah" for God. When Ike was sworn in as president for his second term, this Bible was used (see photograph London Daily News Feb 2, 1957:1). The press reports of this account, though, usually did not quote the words the President actually read which were "Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah" but instead substituting the word "Lord" for "Jehovah." The Watchtower concluded that this misquote was an attempt to distance President Eisenhower from his parents' faith by not using a term that was at this time intimately connected with the Jehovah's Witnesses sect (Knorr, 1957:323-324).
Why were the Eisenhower's (and the press) so reticent about honestly revealing the religion of their parents? One reason is revealed in an article published in the official Watchtower magazine called Awake!
On September 11, 1946, Mrs. Ida Stover Eisenhower died in Abilene, Kans. Private services were conducted at the home, and public services were handled by an army chaplain from Ft. Riley. Was that in respect for Mrs. Eisenhower? Pallbearers were three American Legionnaires and three Veterans of Foreign Wars. Was that appropriate? ... In 1942 her husband, also one of Jehovah's witnesses, died. One of Jehovah's witnesses preached the funeral service. Mrs. I.S. Eisenhower, like all Jehovah's witnesses, believed religion a racket and the clergy in general, including army chaplains, to be hypocrites. She harbored no special pride for "General Ike;" she was opposed to his West Point appointment. It was gross disrespect to the deceased for an army chaplain to officiate at the funeral.
As for the pallbearers. The American Legion particularly, and also the Veterans of Foreign Wars, are repeatedly ringleaders in mob violence against Jehovah's witnesses. Hundreds of instances could be cited, but illustrative is the one occurring the Sunday before Mrs. Eisenhower's death, in near-by Iowa. There war veterans broke up a public Bible meeting of Jehovah's witnesses, doing much physical violence. Hardly appropriate, then, was it, for such to act as pallbearers? Only death could keep the body of Mrs. Eisenhower from walking away from a funeral so disrespectful of all that she stood for (Knorr, 1946:7).
Unfortunately, this article did not discuss how the Watchtower's teachings and policy on military service, education and involvement in "false religion" contributed to the conflicts noted in the above quote. Dwight's religious orientation as an adult was described as "moderate and tolerant, simple and firm," quite in contrast to the confrontative, pugnacious Watchtower sect of the first half of this century (Fox, 1969:907).
Other reasons for the press' and the Eisenhower boys' lack of honesty about their Watchtower background include embarrassment over the Watchtower's opposition to the flag salute and all patriotic activities, vaccinations and medicine in general, the germ theory and their advocating many ineffectual medical "cures" including phrenology, radio solar pads, radiesthesia, radionics, iridiagnosis, the grape cure, and their staunch opposition to the use of aluminum cooking utensils and Fluoridation of drinking water. Dwight Eisenhower had good reasons to hide his Watchtower background when he ran for president. Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president:
Both Eisenhower and Stevenson were vigorously challenged by some Protestant[s]...for their religious ties. The association of Eisenhower's mother with the Jehovah's Witnesses was exploited to make the GOP candidate appear as an "anti-Christian cultist" and a "foe of patriotism" (Roy, 1953).
The thesis that the Eisenhower boys were embarrassed by their parents' Watchtower involvement is supported by the problem which developed when the Watchtower tried to exploit Mrs. Eisenhower's name for their advantage. One reason for the Eisenhower boys' concern was because Jehovah's Witnesses were generally scorned by most churches and society in general, especially at the turn of the century. Virtually no college-educated people were members, and the education level even today is still extremely low, among the lowest of all religious denominations (Cosmin and Lachman, 1993). A problem that the Eisenhower boys faced in the 1940s, according to Edgar Eisenhower, was that "the deep, sincere and even evangelical religious fervor" of their mother was used by the Watchtower "to exploit her in her old age" (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This concern prompted Edgar to write a letter in 1944 to the Jehovah's Witness who was caring for his mother when she was 82. As was the practice then for all members, young and old--and as Jehovah's Witnesses today are well known for-- Witnesses go from door-to-door and "witness" on the street corners, primarily by selling their literature. Edgar evidently felt that the Eisenhower name was being exploited in this work and objected to his mother "being taken out of the home and used for the purpose of distributing [Watchtower] religious literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:139). Edgar added that he was "willing to fight" for his mother's "right to continue to believe as she saw fit, but ... she could be easily and mistakenly influenced in performing any service which would be represented to her as helpful to the advancement of religious beliefs" of the Watchtower (Kornitzer, 1955:139). His concern was that his mother should no longer
be taken from place to place and exhibited as the mother of General Eisenhower--solely for the purpose of attempting to influence anyone [to accept the Watchtower beliefs] ... I want mother shielded and protected and not exposed or exhibited ... mother's home should be maintained solely for her intimate friends and relatives and ... no stranger should be permitted to live in the house regardless of who he may be ... (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This problem was eventually solved by removing the Jehovah's Witness who was then caring for Ida Eisenhower, Naomi Engle, a lifelong friend and certainly no stranger to Ida, from Ida's home and replacing her with a Mrs. Robinson, a non-Witness. Would Edgar have objected if Ida was allowed to use the Eisenhower name for a cause such as education, health or even a church such as the Lutherans or Methodists? Part of what he likely objected to was what he felt was the Watchtower exploiting her to spread a set of beliefs that he and his brothers firmly and openly disagreed with, i.e., the Watchtower Millennial theology.




When researching Eisenhower's religion "Since so little original documentation exists, most historians have relied on interviews with persons who knew David and Ida" (Branigar 1994:1). Of the large amount of information available, one has to determine which conclusions were historically accurate--sometimes no easy task. One of the most reliable sources is Gladys Dodd's thesis because she used scores of personal interviews with the family, many of whom she was personally acquainted with, to study the religious background of the Eisenhower family in the late 1950s. Unfortunately, some Watchtower sources are questionable.
Dr. Holt, the director of the Dwight D. Eisenhower library in Abilene, Kansas indicates that the Watchtower may be involved in passing documents off as real which are evidently forgeries (1999). Specifically, interviews with family members has led J. Earl Endacott, a former Eisenhower library curator, to conclude that it was a 1944 incident which led to the dismissal of Ida's nurse, Mrs. Engle, who was then an active Jehovah's Witness.
The source of this information was Mrs. Robinson, who became Ida's nurse after Engle's dismissal. She claimed that Engle and another Witness conned Ida to write her name several times on a blank sheet of paper under the pretense of giving her "practice." According to Mrs. Robinson, the most legible signature was then physically cut from the sheet and pasted on the bottom of the letter to Mr. Boeckel which was not written by Mrs. Eisenhower but by Engle. Endacott concluded Engle had "more loyalty to the Witnesses" than to the Eisenhower's to whom she was distantly related. Later "in one of her lucid moments Ida told Mrs. Robinson what had happened and gave the sheet with the cut out name to her. When the Eisenhower foundation took over the home, Mrs. Robinson told me the story and gave me the sheet which I still have" (Endacott, N.D.).
This letter she allegedly wrote was to a Richard Boeckel, a young man who had become a Jehovah's Witness while still in the army (Boeckel, 1980). In August of 1944 Boeckel attended a Watchtower assembly in Denver where he met Lotta Thayer, Ida's neighbor from Abilene. In his conversations with her, Boeckel explained the difficulty of being a Witness in a military environment. Thayer then reportedly told him that her neighbor was General Eisenhower's mother, and added that "she's one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and asked Boeckel if he would like her to write to him (Knorr, 1980:24-29). Boeckel wrote Ida, and part of the letter Ida allegedly wrote back to him stated,
A friend returning from the United Announcers Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, informs me of meeting you there. I rejoice with you in your privilege of attending such convention. It has been my good fortune in the years gone by to attend these meetings of those faithfully proclaiming the name of Jehovah and his glorious kingdom which shortly now will pour out its rich blessings all over the earth. My friend informs me of your desire to have a word from General Eisenhower's mother whom you have been told is one of the witnesses of Jehovah. I am indeed such and what a glorious privilege it has been in associating with [other Witnesses]. . . . Generally I have refused such requests because of my desire to avoid all publicity. However, because you are a person of good will towards Jehovah God and His glorious Theocracy I am very happy to write you. . . . It was always my desire and my effort to raise my boys in the knowledge of and to reverence their Creator. My prayer is that they all may anchor their hope in the New World, the central feature of which is the Kingdom for which all good people have been praying the past two thousand years. I feel that Dwight my third son will always strive to do his duty with integrity as he sees such duty. I mention him in particular because of your expressed interest in him. And so as the mother of General Eisenhower and as a Witness of and for the Great Jehovah of Hosts (I have been such for the past 49 years) I am pleased to write you and to urge you to faithfulness, as a companion of and servant with those who "keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Quoted in Cole, 1955:194-195).
To encourage Boeckel to accept Watchtower doctrines, the letter mentioned several current events which the Watchtower then taught was evidence that Armageddon would occur very soon, concluding that "Surely this portends that very soon the glorious Theocracy, the long promised kingdom of Jehovah...will rule the entire earth and pour out manifold blessings upon all peoples who are of good will towards Him. All others will be removed [killed at Armageddon]. Again, may I urge your ever faithfulness to these 'Higher Powers' and to the New World now so very near." The letter dated August 20, 1944, evidently had the taped signature "Ida Eisenhower" affixed to it and closed with "Respectfully yours in hope of and as a fighter for the New World" (Cole, 1955:191).
This Ida Eisenhower letter, Endacott concluded, was "not in the words of Ida, who at the time could hardly write her own name" and evidentially she was not always mentally alert although her physical health was good. Her memory started to fail soon after her husband died and was at times so poor that she could not even remember her own son's names (Eisenhower, 1974:188). Furthermore, this letter is very well written quite in contrast to the letter she wrote in her own hand dated 1943 (see Cole 1955). When the Eisenhower sons found out about this event (evidentially a reporter published the letter putatively written by Ida Eisenhower to Mr. Boeckel) and other similar incidences, they wrote to Engle exploiting Ida (Kornitzer 1955). The letter was evidentially ignored by Engle and then Milton was given the task of dismissing her. At this time, Milton hired non-Witness Mrs. Robinson to help take care of Ida.
It would appear that Richard Boeckel would immediately be suspicious when he received the letter with Mrs. Eisenhower's signature obviously taped on it. He should have confirmed that the letter was genuine before he made claims about receiving a letter from Ida Eisenhower. His story and a photo reproduction of the letter was published in Marley Cole's book Jehovah's Witnesses and other sources, and Boeckel repeated the claims about the letter in his life story published in the October 15, 1980 Watchtower. At the minimum, the Watchtower Society, Mr. Boeckel, and Marley Cole have unethically presented a letter as genuine evidentially without verification. If Mrs. Eisenhower's letter is verified to be valid, the allegations that her letter is a forgery should be squashed. So far the Watchtower has not answered several inquiries about this matter. The Eisenhower museum has agreed to pay for a handwriting expert to examine the letter, but all attempts to obtain the cooperation of the Watchtower have so-far failed.
Merle Miller related an experience involving Boeckel and this letter which reveals the irony of Eisenhower's mother's faith:
. . . one time when Boeckel refused, as a good Witness must, to salute his superior officers at Fort Warren, he said that he was a Witness and that his refusal to salute was "based on my understanding of the Bible." One officer reportedly said, "General Eisenhower ought to line you Jehovah's Witnesses up and shoot you all!" Boeckel then, again according to The Watchtower, said, "'Do you think he would shoot his own mother, sir?' "'What do you mean by that?' "Reaching in my pocket and taking out Sister Eisenhower's letter, I handed it to him. . . . He read the letter ... [and] handed it back to me. 'Get back to ranks,' he said, 'I don't want to get mixed up with the General's mother'"(Miller, 1987:79).
Suspicion that the letter was a forgery is also supported by a Watchtower teaching called The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine. The Theocratic Warfare doctrine essentially teaches that it is appropriate to withhold the truth from "people who are not entitled to it" to further the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1992; Franz, 1971:1060-1061). Reed defines Theocratic War Strategy as the approval to lie "to outsiders when deemed necessary" and also to deceive outsiders to advance the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1995:40). In the words of Kotwall the Watchtower teaches that "to lie and deceive in the interest of their religion is Scripturally approved" (Kotwall, 1997:1). Jehovah's Witnesses do not always lie outright, but they often lie according to the court's definition--not telling "the whole truth and nothing but the truth," which means the court requires the whole story, not half-truths or deception (Bergman 1998). In the words of Raines, theocratic warfare in practice means "deceiving" to protect and advance the interests of "God's people" especially God's "organization the Watchtower" (Raines, 1996:20).
Nonetheless I found no evidence that either parent was not a devoted Watchtower adherent when the Eisenhower boys were raised. If Mrs. Eisenhower's allegiance to the Watchtower waned as she got older, this would not affect the fact that her boys were raised as Witnesses, but would help us to better understand Ida Eisenhower.
In conclusion, Ida probably did not resign from the Witnesses and still saw herself as one. The reasons for concluding Ida Eisenhower mailed other letters at about the same time that she allegedly mentioned her Witness commitment to Boeckel include a handwritten letter to fellow Witness Mrs. H. I. Lawson of Long Island, N.Y., in 1943 (Cole, 1955). Although this letter could be a forgery as well, no one has voiced this concern yet.
In addition, a front page Wichita Beacon (April 1943) article about Ida's Watchtower assembly attendance gave no indication that she was then disenchanted with Jehovah's Witnesses. The article stated that "the 82 year old mother of Americas famous military leader. . . was the center of attraction at the meeting Sunday, and her name was heard in just about every conversation, speech and discussion. The program's subject was 'how to become a good Jehovah's Witness." No evidence exists that only a year later she rejected Watchtower teachings or had resigned. These facts do not prove the letter is not a forgery, nor do they demonstrate the commonly alleged view that she became a Witness only in her later years when she was becoming senile, as often implied by many authors.
Conversely, some hints exists that Mrs. Eisenhower's loyalty to the Watchtower, in contrast to the common perception, waned as she grew older. All of her sons left the Watchtower, as did her husband, all whom became opposed to many of their teachings. Furthermore, when J. F. Rutherford became the Watchtower president in 1916, their teachings changed drastically. Rutherford introduced many - if not most - of their more objectionable teachings such as their opposition to medicine, flag salute, vaccines, blood transfusions, and all other religions, all of which Rutherford regarded as "a snare and a racket" and of Satan. If Rutherford had retained the teachings of the first president, C.T. Russell, I believe the Eisenhower family concerns about the Watchtower would not have been nearly as great.
On the other hand, very good reasons existed for the Eisenhower family to attempt to distance themselves from the Watchtower--reasons which were made clear by some of Eisenhower's opponents, some evidently who planned to use this information to hurt Eisenhower's political career. As noted above, Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president.




 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago


Holy Mackral ! Did you write this article. It's very interesting. I always wondered what the real scoop was about Pres.Eisenhower, now I know. Do you have the Bibliography of this article? I'd like to look into those sources, especially Ike's brothers work. Very very interesting. Thanks for posting!

"Our day will come old friend, just not today."
 
cat1759
cat1759 13 years ago


This was an excellent read!
I thought the double standards were so cute.
Cathy
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


Panda, these are the sources:

References
Ambrose, Stephen E. The Supreme Commander: The War Years of General Dwight D. Eisenhower . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1970.
_________. Eisenhower: 1893-1952 . New York: Simon and Schuster, 1983.
Anderson, Jack. "Is His Vote Record Related To Payroll?" Merry-Go-Round in the Detroit Free Press (Sept. 23, 1956),16b.
Bergman, Jerry. "The Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses Branch of Protestantism" in America's Alternative Religions , Ed. by Timothy White Albany, NY: State University of New Press, 1995, p. 33-46.
_________. The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine: Why Jehovah's Witnesses Lie in Court . Clayton, CA: Witness Inc 1998.
Beschloss, Michael R. Eisenhower, A Centennial Life . New York: Harper Collins 1990.
Boeckel, Richard A. "A Soldier who Became a Preacher" The Watchtower ( Oct. 15, 1980), 24-29.
Bonnell, John Sutherland. Presidential Profiles; Religion in the Life of American Presidents . (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1971).
Branigar, Thomas. Letter to the author, August 9, 1994
Cole, Marley. Jehovah's Witnesses, The New World Society  New York: Vantage Press 1955.
Cosmin, Barry A. and Seymour P. Lachman. One Nation Under God . New York: Harmony Books, 1993.
Davis, Kenneth , Soldier of Democracy; A Biography of Dwight Eisenhower  Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1952 originally published in 1945
Dodd, Gladys. The Religious Background of the Eisenhower Family . Bachelor of Divinity Thesis, Nazarene Theology Seminary, Merriam, Kans. 1959.
_________. "The Early Career of Abraham L. Eisenhower, Pioneer Preacher," Kansas Historical Quarterly  29 (Autumn 1963).
_________. Letter from author dated Oct. 8, 1994.
Endacott, J. Earl. Records, Documentary Historical Series , Box 4, Eisenhower Library
Eisenhower, Dwight D. At Ease, Stories I tell to Friends  Garden City, NJ: Doubleday, 1967.
_________. The Eisenhower Diaries (Robert H. Fervell, Ed.). New York: W.W. Norton Co., 1981.
Eisenhower, Milton S. The President is Calling  GardenCity, New York: Doubleday, 1974.
Fleming, Helen. "Ike's Mom Jehovah Witness 50 yrs., Say group leaders; preacher from door to door in Abilene, Director reports."  Chicago Daily News , June 25, 1955, pp. 1,3.
Ford, Edward , Jr. correspondence to author dated Sept. 1995.
Fox, Frederick. "Pro Ike." Christian Century . July 2,1969 Vol. 86.
Franz, Frederick (Ed.). Aid to Bible Understanding. New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1971.
________. J ehovah's Witnesses; Proclaimers of God's Kingdom . Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania 1993).
Freese, Arthur. "Man of the 20th century" (Interview with Milton Eisenhower) Modern Maturity. Dec-Jan., 1975 17(6):25-28).
Fuller, Edmund and David E. Green. God in the White House; The Faiths of American Presidents . New York: Crown Publishers, Inc., 1968.
Gammon, Roland (Ed.). Eisenhower speech reprinted in (Roland Gammon Ed.) Al l Believers Are Brothers . New York: Doubleday, Garden City, 1969), 3-4.
Graham, Billy. Just As I Am; The Autobiography of Billy Graham. (San Francisco: Harper 1997), chapter 12 "The General who Became President" 188 - 206.
Gruss, Edmond. T he Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation . Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976.
Gunther, John. Eisenhower, The Man and the Symbol . Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1951.
Gustafson, Merlin. "Religion of a President." Christian Century . (April 30, 1969), 610-613.
Hatch, Alden. General Ike; A Biography of Dwight D. Eisenhower . Chicago, IL: Consolidated Book Publishers, 1944.
Hendon, David and James Kennedy. "Civil Religion" Journal of Church and State. 391 39 (2) 1997, 390-391.
Hutchinson, Paul. "The President's religious faith," Christian Century . March 24, 1954 Vol 71, 364; reprinted in Life March 22, 1954 Vol. 36: 150+
Henshel, Milton G. Chicago Daily News . June 25,1955, 1, 3
Jameson, Henery B. "Ike buried in Abilene; Massive crowd for Eisenhower funeral" Abilene Reflector--Chronicle , Memorial Ed. 1969.
Knorr, N.H. "Religion Void of Principle." Awake!  Oct 22,1946, 27(20): 323-324.
_________. "Eisenhower book stirs a controversy: conceals fact that parents were Jehovah's Witnesses." Awake!  ( Sept. 22, 1955. 36(18), 3-4.
_________. "Appreciated Parents" Awake! Ap. 22, 1975, 56(8):30.
_________. "Conspiracy against Jehovah's name" Watchtower 78(11): 323-324. June 1, 1957
Kornitzer, Bela. The Great American Heritage; The Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers . New York: Farrar Straus, and Cudahy, 1955.
Kotwall, B. J. "The Watchtower Society Encourages Lying." The Investigator Magazine Australia 1997.
Larson, Arthur. E isenhower; The President Nobody Knew . New York: Charles Scribners Sons, 1968.
Lyon, Peter. Eisenhower; Portrait of the Hero . Boston: Little, Brown and Co 1974.
McCullun, John Six Roads From Abilene, Some Personal Recollections of Edgar Eisenhower . Seattle, Wash.: Wood and Reber, Inc., 1960.
Miller, Francis Trevelyn. Eisenhower, Man and Soldier . (Philadelphia: John C. Winston Company, 1944)
Miller, Merle. Ike the Soldier; As They Knew Him. New York: Putnam's Sons, 1987.
Neal, Steve. The Eisenhower's . Lawrence, Kans: University Press of Kansas 1984.
Nevin, David. "Home to Abilene." Life  (April 11,1969 Vol 66 No 14 ), 24.
Pearson, Drew. "Eisenhower's seek to clear mother of affiliation with religious sect." Merry-Go-Roun d in the Defiance Crescent News . (Dec. 19, 1956): 6.
Pickett, William. Dwight David Eisenhower and American Power . Wheeling, Ill.:Harland Davidson, Inc., 1995.
Raines, Ken. "Deception by JWs in Court, OK with Judge?" JW Research Journal . 3(2) Spring 1996, p. 20.
Reed, David. "Court Rules; Watchtower Booklet Recommends 'Untrue' Testimony Under Oath." C omments from the Friends , Spring, 1992.
_______. Dictionary of J.W. eez: The Loaded Language Jehovah's Witnesses Speak . (Assonet, MA.: Comments from the Friends, 1995): 40.
Ralph Lord, Roy. Apostles of Discord; A Study of Organized Bigotry and Disruption on the Fringes of Protestantism . Boston: Beach Press, 1953.
Russell, Charles Taze. Studies in the Scriptures; Series III, Thy Kingdom Come Chapter 10, "The Testimony of God's Stone Witness and Prophet, The Great Pyramid in Egypt," Allegheny, PA: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 1904.
________. Studies in the Scriptures; Series I, The Plan of the Ages . New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1914 Front page.
Rutherford, Joseph. "The Alter in Egypt." Pt. 1 The Watch Tower . 49(22):339-345, Nov. 15, 1928; Pt. II. Dec. 1, 1928, 49(23):355-362).
Sellers, Ron. How Americans View Various Religious Groups . Report by Barna Research Group, 1990
Sider, Morris E. . Archivist for the Brethren in Christ Church, Messiah College, Grantham, PA. Interviews of various dates, and correspondence to the author dated October 24, 1994.
Taylor, Allan (Ed.). What Eisenhower Thinks . New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company.
Tonkin, R.G. "I grew up with Eisenhower." Saturday Evening Post ,May 3,1952.
Time Eisenhower: Soldier of peace." April 4, 1969:19-25.
Time "I Chose My Way." Sept 23, 1946: 27.
Whitney, David C. The American Presidents . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1967.
Watchtower Publication Awake! "Should Christians be Pacifists" (May 8, 1997, 78(9): 22-23); "Why Jehovah's Witnesses are not Pacifists" and "Pacifism and Conscientious Objection - is there a difference?" 73 - 81 The Watchtower (Feb 1, 1951 72(3): 67- 73; Christendom or Christianity, which is the light of the World?  (New York, NY:Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1955), 24-26 subtitled "Is a Christian a Pacifist?"
 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago

Joker10, Thank you I am going to keep this bibliography and someday get through a fraction of this list. Again, Thanks.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


Joeker10 has neglected to mention that the article he posted can be found at: http://www.premier1.net/~raines/eisenhower.html
In an article titled, "Why President Eisenhower Hid His Jehovah's Witness Upbringing"
written by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D, Northwest State College, Ohio.
I'm sure Joker10's failure to mention this when specifically asked by Panda if he was the author of the article was simply an oversight.
 
Loris
Loris 13 years ago


I like to go to the local library when they have a used book sale. People donate books and the sale benefits the library. I found "The True Believer" at one of those sales. I had never heard of it before but the title caught my eye.
The one that I have was published by Time Magazine. In the Editors' Preface it starts out by saying, "Dwight Eisenhower is not a man who goes about insistently recommending books on political philosophy. When, during his Presidency, he pressed Eric Hoffer's book, The True Believer, on his associates, some expected to find it a handy expression of Eisenhower's own beliefs. The book is certainly not that, and many other readers before and after Eisenhower have delighted in The True Believer while disagreeing with much of it."
To me I found that tidbit facinating. I am sure that the editor missed the point of Eisenhower's interest in the subject matter. Was it the threat of Communism or was it the JW experience from his childhood? Did he see the similarity of the JW experience with what Eric Hoffer wrote about?
Thank you Jocker10 for posting the article. It was a facinating read.
Loris
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


Thanks Joker....
As a student of history I found this article very interesting. A lot of background information on what makes a person 'tick'. Dwight Eisernhower's life certainly made an impact on this earth and it is facinating to read about how his 'religious' background evolved.
D.E.
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago

i thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


i
thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
Don't worry about it.... it's human nature to not take as much time with or completely ignore LONG posts.... their misfortune... it was a great read.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


I researched this some time ago for a history project. My mother was a JW during the Eisenhower years. They talked about it like we do today about Michael Jackson and the Williams sisters.
During the JW generation of DDE, home family studies weren't stressed. My goodness, a structured study with householders didn't start until 1937 with the Model Study booklet. In many families around here the grandparents were JWs, skip the next generation, then the grandchildren are JWs. I guess the WTS thought the end was so close that it wasn't necessary to study with the kiddies.
Blondie
 
RR
RR 13 years ago

Actually, Ike's Father was a Bible Student eler, NEVER became a JW, lived and died a Bible Student.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


That's good to know, RR. Then I take it his mother was a JW or was she a Bible Student too? That letter seems to indicate she was a JW. That must have made things interesting in the Eisenhower household.
Blondie
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

Here are some search hits on this topic:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Eisenhower+mother+jehovah%27s+witness +
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Ida+Stover&btnG=Search
Some google graphics:
http://images.google.com/images?q=Ida%20Stover&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Honorable MentionIda (Stover) Eisenhower,
Ike's Mother

Ida Eisenhower, 1902
Although arbitrarily excluded from the top five,
Ida Eisenhower may deserve to be
Ike's No. 1. Most Admired Contemporary.
Eisenhower stated more than once that his mother was
the greatest person he knew.
I posted this in another thread, yet just found this one. Therefore, I'll post it here as well:
http://www.aetv.com/tv/shows/ike/
A and E tv original event...May 31, 2004 8pm--7pm central
"IKE: Countdown to D-Day"
________________________
sKally
 
Bangalore
Bangalore 4 years ago

Bumping this.

Bangalore
 

5
10
20




Share this topic

92



Related Topics
frankiespeakin
The Mind Of Adolf Hitler
by frankiespeakin 2 years ago
KiddingMe
State Department report: Religious persecution makes migrants out of millions
by KiddingMe 2 years ago
Village Idiot
Some Religions Never Change: Fundamentalist Christianity and the Burning of Witches
by Village Idiot 4 months ago
AndersonsInfo
New Article on Reveal by Trey Bundy: JW's shield child sex abusers from police, report says
by AndersonsInfo 3 months ago
Sol Reform
Monday and Tuesday, the United Nations Committee Against Torture will question the Vatican about its record on child sexual violence.
by Sol Reform 2 years ago





Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/56651/president-eisenhower-his-jehovahs-witness-background



http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/56651/president-eisenhower-his-jehovahs-witness-background





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Dwight D. Eisenhower
/  





 

Dwight D. Eisenhower
by Wordly Andre 8 years ago 8 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
5
10
20
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

I found this on the web: Eisenhower's family originally belonged to the local River Brethren sect of the Mennonites. However, when Ike was five years old, his parents became followers of the WatchTower Society, whose members later took the name Jehovah's Witnesses. The Eisenhower home served as the local WatchTower meeting Hall from 1896 to 1915, when Eisenhower's father stopped regularly associating due to the WatchTower's failed prophesies that Armageddon would occur in October 1914 and 1915. Ike's father received a WatchTower funeral when he died in the 1940s. Ike's mother continued as an active Jehovah's Witness until her death. Ike and his brothers also stopped associating regularly after 1915. Ike enjoyed a close relationship with his mother throughout their lifetimes, and he even used a WatchTower printed Bible for his second Presidential Inauguration. In later years, Eisenhower was baptized, confirmed, and became a communicant in the Presbyterian church in a single ceremony on February 1, 1953, just weeks after his first inauguration as president. In his retirement years, he was a member of the Gettysburg Presbyterian Church in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.
 
BFD
BFD 8 years ago

I forget where I read that but it sure is interesting. Eisenhower is also the President who inserted "Under God" in the pledge of allegence.
"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." President Eisenhower (1954) after signing into law a bill to have "under God" added to the original pledge
BFD
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

Quotations: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war." -- Flag Day speech, signing bill authorizing addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, 14 June 1954
 
greendawn
greendawn 8 years ago

They were too smart to remain with the JWs it's not for nothing that he was chosen as the leader of the allied forces in the West European war theatre. It is strange though that the mother of one of the US presidents was a JW. According to the dubs, political systems and their leaders are from the Devil!
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

not to mention he had nukes, he could have brought Armageddon!!
 
tula
tula 8 years ago

Forget college! This board has covered a lot of history for one day in this thread. Boy howdy! I sure didn't know all that Andre.
alt
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

So when the Witnesses brag about their standing up to Hitler just remind them that it was an ex-Witness who rode on a Sherman tank into Berlin and got them out of Nazi concentration camps. Not one active Witness helped them.



 
moshe
moshe 8 years ago

A very good point Gary and one I shall use! Preisdent Eisenhower's mother died in 1946, so he didn't have to worry about what she thought when he joined a church.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

I cant immagine how the wactower society would have been in 1914. Everything about the world was different.
I'm not even sure it was the wactower society back then, it might have been called something else.
They used to celebrate birthdays and xmas.
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo 2 months ago
KiddingMe
Police: Teen killed in N.Y. church assault wanted out
by KiddingMe 5 months ago
OrphanCrow
Deaf Aotearoa flooded with complaints about Jehovah's Witness church
by OrphanCrow 5 months ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/143048/dwight-d-eisenhower





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
/  





 

How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle 8 years ago 54 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
My Struggle
My Struggle 8 years ago

I don't mean this to be offensive to any Catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the Jw. Also, I know little about the in's and out's of practicing Catholicism, as I have never had any interest in being one. Regardless I am always surprised when an ex-Jw says that they have found the real truth in Catholicism. To me it seems that they are falling into the belief that they are in the one chosen religion and all other religions and subsequent denominations are wrong. The Catholics also seem to have fairly strict ordinances regarding detailed aspects of your life and are very liturgical....and these things seem to be reasons that some left the Jw's. Catholicism also has it version of the Bible....again something that turned some Jw's off. Catholic history is steeped in 'new light' like teachings and the leaders hold their authority far above the average catholic member, believing that without their direction they would be totally lost on how to understand the Bible....again things that made ex-jw's say 'Wait a minute...you mean to tell me.....'.
Again I mean no offense, and I am sure that there are plenty of things that I am either off about or just dead wrong. So, please correctly me where I am wrong.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 8 years ago

I was surprised by this also when I became aware. However, I have tried to look at it fairly now, and I am surprised what I have found.
I have read Tom Cabeen's story. He has ended up [former Bethel elder and factory overseer] embracing Orthodoxy after 20+ years out of the Jw's, after a long battle with his personal theology. Tom is well known, has written several published materials on his exit. He resisted Catholicism for a long time before persuading himself to listen to what they really teach and why.
I can email you a nice PDF of Tom's story if you would like to read it. Personally, I have elected to remain without any attachment to religion for the time being - but his arguments are compelling and interesting to read. Besides Tom, I am aware of several others who have made this choice also. All thinkers, and all have carefully considered the choice I believe.
Jeff
 
tula
tula 8 years ago

Catholic history is steeped in 'new light'
Don't forget where "new light" really comes from.
Scripture tells us that Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
The name Lucifer means "light-bearer".
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

To me it seems that they are falling into the belief that they are in the one chosen religion and all other religions and subsequent denominations are wrong.
I am not Catholic but it may be on my path. I am seriously examining it. Catholics consider Protestant and Orthodox groups as "brothers and sisters" and as Christian. They are part of the mystical body of Christ and the HS dwells in them as welll. This is official Catholic teaching. They do not believe that these other Christian groups will be destroyed for not being Catholic. However, they do believe that the "fullness" of the Christian faith resides in the Catholic church.
The Catholics also seem to have fairly strict ordinances regarding detailed aspects of your life and are very liturgical....and these things seem to be reasons that some left the Jw's.
The Jewish religion also had a very liturgical worship centered around the Temple. The Catholic liturgy liturgy is ancient, and highly symbolic-as is the Orthodox liturgy as well. I am currently reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Lambs-Supper-Mass-Heaven-Earth/dp/0385496591
Catholicism also has it version of the Bible....again something that turned some Jw's off.
The Catholic "Bible" is the ancient canon of Scripture, compiled and ratified in the 4th century. Several books were stripped out 500 years ago during the Protestant reformation. I ask, under what authority was Scripture neutered? This is something I recommend you research.
Catholicism also has it version of the Bible....again something that turned some Jw's off. Catholic history is steeped in 'new light' like teachings and the leaders hold their authority far above the average catholic member, believing that without their direction they would be totally lost on how to understand the Bible....again things that made ex-jw's say 'Wait a minute...you mean to tell me.....'.
The Bible grew out of the Church, not the Church out of the Bible. If the Bible was easy to understand by private interpretation, why are there 20000 denominations today, with hundreds of new ones forming every year based on varying interpretations of Scripture?
There is an X-JW that posts here from time by the name of Jeff Schwemmer. He has a very interesting site:
http://catholicxjw.com/
Burn
 
Gayle
Gayle 8 years ago

That really perplexes me too. It seems some just have a need for religion in their lives and that okay.
 
Undecided
Undecided 8 years ago

It seems to me a God who wants dumb humans to worship him a certain way would define true worship to his creation. He gets so riled up if humans don't follow his way of worship, at least that is the way the bible describes his history with man. He's killing us all because one man ate a piece of fruit. I hope he doesn't get mad again like he did in Noah's day.
Ken P.
 
Witness 007
Witness 007 8 years ago

Fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on me!!!!!
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

I understand your perplexity. I left the JWs in 1980 and was involved with various Protestant churches for 10 years. I used to like to visit different churches occasionally, but I never noticed the Catholic parishes in my area. I think of all the people who were surprised when I became Catholic in 1992, none were more surprised than me!
I would agree with BurnTheShips comments above. I was influenced by studying early Church history. Some books that I found helpful were the 3 volume set: The Faith of the Early Fathers (Jurgens), Evangelical is Not Enough (Howard), and particularly by Peter Kreeft's Fundamentals of the Faith. Having said that, I try to avoid a triumphalistic view of the Church. I freely acknowledge we have our shortcomings and problems, but I still believe that when I'm at Mass I'm joining in with the "cloud of witnesses" throughout all ages in worshipping God.
Catholic writer John Coffey has tried to address some of these issues in a series of lectures entitled "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholic Church." He addresses issues such as the JW attitude towards Catholicism, the historicity of the Catholic Church, the papacy, Catholics and the Bible, and the Virgin Mary. For those interested, the transcript of those lectures (over 300 pages) can be downloaded from this filesharing site:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=101035150a85894d56beb0577be6aa86
(Awhile ago, I posted a link to an earlier version of this which only contained the last lecture. The file at the above link is the complete lecture series.)
Coffey also wrote a response to JW doctrine, entitled The Gospel According to Jehovah's Witnesses, written from a generic Christian viewpoint. For those interested, that can be downladed from here:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=f9951760cfc22b2cf70dda67dbf24054
 
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 8 years ago

As JW's, we thought we knew the Bible. Turns out what we really knew was the Watchtower's interpretation of the Bible which is a hugely different thing. But at least we were reading the Bible and became familiar with its words, despite not knowing their meaning. (If any)
In the case of Catholicism, we thought we knew them, too. We knew some of their darker history, some of their zanier popes, their pedophile-priest problems. But it's not like we read their catechism books, or attended mass, or anything else that gave us a balanced view. Essentially, all we ever read was anti-Catholic propaganda.
So an ex-JW is just not qualified to determine anything about Catholics. The only hope they have is to mentally set aside everything they think they know and start fresh. Otherwise, that propaganda will override it all.
Dave
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

Your question suggests dub-think still has a hold on you. We learned to hate Catholicism at the Kingdom Hall. After I stopped going there, I found I became a lot more tolerant of others' beliefs. If I learned anything from my journey through JW-ism, it's that there is no single solitary "truth." However, there is clearly some "truth" in almost every set of beliefs and good people in every religion.
The real Truth is that we are on this planet with no verifiable proof about where we came from or why we are here. We are forced to answer the deep questions of life with theory. And there are many theories because we are all very different in our approach to life.
The captain has turned off the "no tolerance" sign. We are now free to move about the cabin.
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 8 years ago

How could an ex-JW become Catholic?
Head trauma.

Just kidding, ex-JW Mary-worshippers.
Er.
I mean Pope-lovers.
Sincerely,
Born-only-once-God-nonrecognizer
 
BFD
BFD 8 years ago

tsk, tsk, nvr.
BFD
 
sspo
sspo 8 years ago

That's what i used to think when i was a JW but for many it's another way to connect with God and feel close to him.
Yes the Catholic church does feel they are the true church but of course every other denomination feels the same way.
One positive thing about being Catholic is you don't have to accept all of their techings, you can almost do what you want with no consequences.
You can pick and choose what you want. I do not agree with their bowing down and kissing and praying to their statues but
i would choose them over the JW's anytime.
 
Finally-Free
Finally-Free 8 years ago

JWs hate Catholics. JWs hate apostates. Being both, apostate and Catholic is a sure way to make sure the stupid JWs don't bother you anymore.
W
 
Layla33
Layla33 8 years ago

Yes, it does perplex me at times, but then I realize everyone needs to define their own belief system.
For me, I just see religion entirely as group-think and man trying to interpet God. When you add in how many times and years the bible was rewritten and even constructed, it is a wonder that anyone leaving the JW religion would want to be apart of a religion in any way.
But as I am one not to walk someone else's path, these are just my thoughts and if it works for someone else, I wish them well.
 
worldtraveller
worldtraveller 8 years ago

I have many Catholic friends in Mexico and they do not practice shunning. They do dislike Witnesses, but only when they come knocking at your door. Not that it happens much there! I have always felt welcome in their churches, and never were pestered-just ocasionally gawked at. But even that stopped as they accepted the green eyed stranger with open arms.
As far as criticism of other orgs., well it is competition after all, and it IS about money.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

When I went to AA meetings there was a saying " attending AA Fuxs up your drinking."
Well in the same veing "Attending the kingdumb hall affects your ability to join another church."
When you cross either threshold your no longer innocent.

My uncle is a catholic. He tells me he finds peace in his beliefs.
Many of the catholics I know keep things simpler than the witnesses they go to church once or twice a year, play with some beads and their good to go.
The early gangsters, mafia, were alll catholics it enabled them to sin/kill and be forgiven by attending confession and reciting a few prayers.
The problem with the witnesses is they paint themselves into a corners. Their stock and trade is false predictions with dates. The dates come and go. And the witnesses are left holding the bag.
They have to outlaw their own litterature thats a few years old.
As far as I'm aware modern day catholics arent into issuing verifiable false predictions.
 
Hortensia
Hortensia 8 years ago

yeah, I don't get it either. Out of the frying pan into the fire. But I think all religion stinks, it's all about control and money. I explored different religions when I left the org., but they are all the same, with different trappings.
 
momzcrazy
momzcrazy 8 years ago

I love the tradition of the Catholic religion. And how old they are, and the beautiful churches. While I may go with our neighbors on Easter, or some other time, I won't become any religion. I don't feel salvation or spirituality depend upon a place or label.
momz
 
diamondblue1974
diamondblue1974 8 years ago

If I can become a practising Druid, I suppose other XJWs can become catholics!
G
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
Terry
The "Wound" may soon be healed? (The split between Orthodox and Catholic)
by Terry a month ago
freemindfade
FMF: A Wake Up Story
by freemindfade 6 months ago
Wonderment
"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17
by Wonderment 4 months ago
adimmedlight
Getting it out of my system, a VERY long introduction/outpouring..
by adimmedlight 9 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/152145/how-could-ex-jw-become-catholic





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
/  





 

How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle 8 years ago 54 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

I am an XJW who is "becoming" Catholic.
I "found Jesus" in the Catholic Church. I am finally, after many years, experiencing healing from the anger and resentment engendered by the WTS.
Catholic worship is deeply scriptural. Jesus said that once he established his Church, it would always exist (The gates of Hades will not overpower it).
I find it reasonable that the same God who preserved Holy Scripture inerrant for thousands of years would preserve His Church on earth.
I find that the Catholic Church does the things that Jesus foretold his followers would do -- they feed the hungry, care for the sick, and become the face of Jesus to those in need.
The parable of the Wheat and the Weeds foretells that not all Christians would be good. Not all Catholics are good. They are human. But so were the Israelites, and God preserved their priesthood from Aaron until the time of Christ for His purpose.
I have, of course, not come to this decision lightly. It is also not a subject about which I will argue, although I would be happy to discuss the subject in more depth if anyone has a question for me personally.
Peace to all of you,
Ruth
 
kazar
kazar 8 years ago

I am also surprised at JW's becoming Catholic; probably because I was a Catholic who converted to the JW's. I found the doctrines and teachings of Catholicism burdensome--mortal sins, venial sins, heaven, hell, limbo (I don't mean the dance) and purgatory just to name a few. I never knew any Catholics who were sincere. I'm sure there are, I'm just stating I never met them. I used to be amazed at the things Catholics would do which would be considered very damning and they didn't even worry about getting to confession. It was this descrepancy which turned me away from them. Of course after a few years of being a JW I encountered different rules and beliefs that were just as burdensom. The hypocrisy of the Watchtower did the same thing to me.
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

How could an ex-Jw become Catholic?
I think the first thing that would have to happen is a rethinking of the silly Protestant notion that the 66 book Bible for all practical purposes, "Fell from heaven."
 
poppers
poppers 8 years ago

To me it seems that they are falling into the belief that they are in the one chosen religion and all other religions and subsequent denominations are wrong.
This is standard across the board, not just with Catholics. Who follows a religion seriously who doesn't do that?
 
Tom Cabeen
Tom Cabeen 8 years ago

Hi All, I am not a frequent poster here, but have been a member for some time. A friend informed me of this post, and since I was mentioned, I thought I would give a “brief” reply to what is a very good question. How could an ex-JW become Catholic? As might be expected, the answer is more complex when told in its entirety. But I can give some indicators that will at least help you see the main motivators that moved me toward where I am now: I had been trained as a JW to obey the truth no matter how hard, as, for example in the issue of blood transfusions or persecution. I have not rejected that principle, and it has continued to guide me throughout my life. Step one: Reading Carl Olof Jonsson’s letter to the WTS when I was still a loyal JW at Bethel convinced me that WT chronology was fatally flawed. Since I had really put a lot of effort into understanding it, I knew the key role it played in the claims made by the WTS as to who and what they were. Bottom line, they could not be who they claimed to be. So I knew I would have to part company with them, though I knew it would be painful. Step two: After several years as a “freelance” Christian, not associated with any formal fellowship except for a small group of former JWs every few weeks, my wife and I missed regular Christian fellowship and decided to attend a small local church. No particular reason except that it was small and convenient. We later switched to a Baptist church which had a bigger youth program to provide association for our kids. I learned a lot more, and we enjoyed the fellowship, but I found many logical and scriptural contradictions among some of the basic doctrines as taught by evangelicals. Step three: A former JW friend introduced me to the historical writings of the early Christians and convinced me that the church founded by the apostles did not go off the rails at the end of the first century. I began to read their writings extensively and, after some time spent getting my head around their very different perspective on many things, found that not only was their perspective on Christianity more sensible, it was also just as clearly supported in scripture as other “Bible based” versions of Christianity. Step four: We began attending an evangelical Anglican (Episcopal) church, where we were introduced to liturgical worship. Another former JW friend who had become a Catholic described their worship to me, I was struck at how similar it was to the Episcopal worship. I began to investigate the Catholic church more seriously. I had many of the same beliefs about Catholic teachings that many of you have, I’m sure, but I considered each one slowly and seriously. I have a very devout son who is also a scientist, and together we carefully considered the historical, scriptural and logical basis for Catholic teachings which were new to us. They each stood up to, in his words, “intense intellectual scrutiny”. Still determined to follow truth wherever it led, after intense discussions, meditation and praying about it for well over a year, my wife, my son and I all decided (independently) that we should become members of the Catholic church, based only on our research and our faith that God was guiding us through his Spirit. The first Catholic mass I ever attended, with the exception of one or two funerals and a wedding over a period of twenty five years, was on the day we were confirmed as Catholics. All that was required of me to be confirmed as a Catholic was to affirm that I believed the beliefs enumerated in the Apostle’s Creed. I firmly believe them all. We have not found the Catholic church to be what it is portrayed to be by either non-Catholics or dissatisfied former Catholics. I have learned so much. Every day I am more convinced that the fullest expression of the Christian faith is contained in the Catholic Church. I believe that many non-Catholics are also Christians, though, and I do not judge them. But once I began to really study the Catholic faith (something many if not most cradle Catholics have never bothered to do), every day her beauty and the truthfulness of her teachings becomes more evident to me. Can non-Catholics be saved? Yes. But if I have the opportunity to choose the Christian faith in simple outline (Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so) or in rich depth and fullness, why not choose the latter? As for the idea that we have just gone back to what we thought we had as JWs, that is the one thing we will never do. Been there, done that. Never again! However, the problem I had with the WTS was not their claim that God has a people nor that he directs his people, it was their claim to be that people. Their teachings do not support their claims. They are counterfeit. I will be happy to answer any serious questions, either here or in private email correspondence at tcabeen@snet.net. Tom Cabeen
 
Crumpet
Crumpet 8 years ago

I've considered it and I'm an atheist.
I like the colours purple and scarlet.
I love the Cathedrals and churches.
I'm into candles.
I like nuns.
Idea of confessionals makes me horny - bit like therapy, but behind a screen so I can hide my blushes (and anything else I might want to get up to).
I think there are quite a few reasons.
Not to mention free wine.
Downside - nasty papery wafery things in your mouth (I mean communion, not the priest)
The pope.
Unprotected sex.
 
martinwellborne
martinwellborne 8 years ago

i have no idea, especially if they have ever read "Vicars of Christ, the DARK side of the Papacy" by Peter de Rosa. an ex jesuir priest. i could harly put the book down for laughing, crying etc. it stunned me. without a word of a lie.
read of pope after pope who were atheists, sodomites, murderers, soldiers etc.
'#;*- it's unbelievable
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 8 years ago

I'm one of those who fell away from the Catholic Church, joined Jehovah's Witnesses, and after about seven and a half years returned to the Church. My story can be found on Jeff's site:
http://www.catholicxjw.com/fallenaway.html
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

Welcome, Tom, and thanks for sharing your story here.
One other book I want to mention that, oddly enough, is written by two Catholics (one a Jesuit!) but published by a Protestant publishing company is Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli.
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Christian-Apologetics-Hundreds-Questions/dp/0830817743
While written to a general audience, it offers some insights on issues that divide Protestants and Catholics, such as the subject of faith and works.
 
GoingGoingGone
GoingGoingGone 8 years ago

When I left the JWs, it was for doctrinal reasons. What the JWs taught did not agree with what the Bible said. My search for truth brought me to the Catholic church. I read much of the early Church Fathers, studied Catholic doctrine and interpretation of scriptures, and attended mass.
I think that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible makes the most sense of any other religion I've investigated. I jumped in with both feet because I thought, NOW, finally, I have found the way God wants me to worship him... everything the Catholics believe is in the Bible. What I failed to consider, though, was that Catholicism preceeded the Bible by about 400 years. The New Testament books were chosen by Catholics. So of course the Catholic church could make sense of the Bible! They assembled it... they took the (possibly) thousands of letters and books and other writings, hand-picked only those they wanted, put them together into the NT, and called it inspired.
That puts the Catholic clergy in a very special position. The Bible is given to the Church, not to mankind in general, and the church must interpret it in order for everyone else to understand it.
Tom Cabeen wrote: As for the idea that we have just gone back to what we thought we had as JWs, that is the one thing we will never do. Been there, done that. Never again! However, the problem I had with the WTS was not their claim that God has a people nor that he directs his people, it was their claim to be that people.
Tom, I've read many of your essays and I have nothing but respect for you. You say that you'd never go back to what you thought you had as JWs. However, when you lost faith in the JWs, you lost the security of having all the answers, knowing you were part of an organization which has God's approval, which points to the Bible as proof of that. Now that you found the Catholic church, you again have the security of having all the answers, of knowing you are part of an organization that has God's approval and points to the Bible as proof of that. Only this time, the claims of being God's people come from the Church which assembled the very book you are pointing to as proof! Logically, they would fit the bill.
I agree with the poster who said that if God had a specific way he wanted us to worship him, he would make it clear to us. Not clear as in: "Wade through tens of thousands of belief systems, pick one, then wade through all the denominations of that particular belief system. Oh, and if you pick the wrong one, you'll be spending a looong time in purgatory." I mean clear as in simply knowing what God wants. Like we know that we love our children, or know that killing someone in cold blood is wrong.

Just my two cents.
GGG
 
Word
Word 8 years ago

My Struggle: I am always surprised when an ex-Jw says that they have found the real truth in Catholicism
I am not

All the Revelation prophecies that JWs have in the 140 year period between 1874 and 2014 AD
Catholics have in the 260 year period between 65 AD and 325 AD
Babylon the Great, The Beast, The King of kings, The thousand years, The New Jerusalem, The great crowd, the great tribulation, The Parousia, The Resurrection and so on
altalt
King on Throne in Heaven and Woman standing on moon with twelve stars

 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 8 years ago

I love all people. I love Catholics.
I might be partly trying to 'make up' for all the meanness that I endorsed as an active Jw for so long. We demonized them without honest examination as Jw's. I have found those Jw's who joined the Catholic or Orthodox faiths to be kind, caring, decent people. None of them have jumped into the religion without deep investigation. They of course are aware of the failings of former Popes and religious leaders. The Church does not make many efforts to rewrite it's history - it is well known. The honesty of that is refreshing compared to what the Jw's did with it's history.
Jeff
 
BONEZZ
BONEZZ 8 years ago

I am certainly not as deep into religious studies as many of you and have never been. But whenever I had doubts about certain JDub beliefs I was told that the defining experience was "LOVE" among a group...that's how you knew the "approved" group. Well since i have been disassociated I have had much contact with Catholics. Myoffice was located next to a Catholic Ladies Relief office where I witnessed many good-hearted people donate many hours of their time to giving food to needy families. The WTBS would poo-poo that of course but have they, as a billion dollar corporation, made Jesus's or Jehovah's name venerated by ignoring the hunger and needs of those less fortunate.
I also live next to a Cistercian Monastary...again this group is so UN-LIKE the WTBS it is enormous. At anytime of the day from their opening to their closing, I can walk onto their property without asking permission and go almost anywhere I want without being followed or hounded, except of course the cloistered areas where the monks actually live and sleep. They have a library, stocked with books for loan or sale...and no one is there monitoring it. There's a little box for donations if your see something you like or want. When was the last time you walked around headquarters in New York unaccompanied? The Dubs think the worst (suspicion & paranoia) of everyone. You have to prove your loyalty. The Catholics seem to think the best of everyone. You would have to prove you're not a good person. The monks are very welcoming and hospitable. Yes, most of them talk and are gracious even to the most crude individuals who show up there. It is a true representation of Love. (The fact that they own and operate a terfific little winery has had no effect on my comments...it's just a bonus)
Plus I have a Catholic aunt who has never shunned us even though my father had many hot Dub/debates with her.
That's my experience with those "nasty", much-hated-by-the-WTBS Catholics.
Catholics - 3
JW's - 0
-BONEZZ
 
Tom Cabeen
Tom Cabeen 8 years ago

To GGG:
 You wrote: Tom, I've read many of your essays and I have nothing but respect for you. You say that you'd never go back to what you thought you had as JWs. However, when you lost faith in the JWs, you lost the security of having all the answers, knowing you were part of an organization which has God's approval, which points to the Bible as proof of that. Now that you found the Catholic church, you again have the security of having all the answers, of knowing you are part of an organization that has God's approval and points to the Bible as proof of that. Only this time, the claims of being God's people come from the Church which assembled the very book you are pointing to as proof! Logically, they would fit the bill.
 The proof of the identity of the Catholic church is not primarily biblical, for the very reason you point to. I believe the Bible to be true on the Church's authority, not the other way around. The Bible, authenticated and viewed purely as an historical document, describes a group of people who believed that they had had an encounter with the very Son of God. Other historical documents corroborate the teachings of this man, and also describe how firmly they were believed by so many people, and why these people believed them to be true. They also describe that this man taught that he would found a church that would last until his second coming. I can document historically that a church has been in existence since the first century, and that her teachings have been essentially unchanged for nearly two millennia. The leaders of this church have stated authoritatively that certain books are authentic and inspired. We now call those books the New Testament. So that is why I believe the Bible to be true.
 Another difference for me now is that I view an organization as a human thing, whereas I see the church as an organic thing, Christ's own body, a temple made of living stones, which he inhabits by Spirit. The Catholic Church of today has all the earmarks of being the continuation of what I see described in the New Testament. I can follow her history down through the centuries in the writings of her members, which hold a remarkable continuity and unanimity, even though for most of her history there has been no possibility of anything like the WT's regular output of enforced interpretations coming from one small group of men in one city in the USA.
 Hippolytus, writing in the second century, gave a list of the seventy disciples Jesus trained and sent out, where they went and what they did. Nearly all of them became overseers or bishops of cities throughout the ancient world. This would have guaranteed a unanimity of belief and practice, something his contemporary, Irenaeus points to as proof of the catholicity of the early church. This was long before the days of printing and quick communication.
 The business-like WT-style governing of an organization was impossible prior to the modern age of rapid communication and cheap printing.
 Thanks for your comments!
 Tom
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 8 years ago

Tom Cabeen welcome to the board -please in put more. Are you the real deal Tom Cabeen that Randy Watters refers to? If so really looking forward to your input
 
Tom Cabeen
Tom Cabeen 8 years ago

Yes, it is me. Randy and I go back a long way, to the early 1970s. I first talked to Randy about my biblical "discoveries" behind the Wood-Hoe press when I was Pressroom Overseer and he was one of my foremen in the Pressroom at Bethel. We both left Bethel about the same time, in 1980.
 Tom
 
BlackSwan of Memphis
BlackSwan of Memphis 8 years ago


I don't mean this to be offensive to any Catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the Jw. Also, I know little about the in's and out's of practicing Catholicism, as I have never had any interest in being one. Regardless I am always surprised when an ex-Jw says that they have found the real truth in Catholicism. To me it seems that they are falling into the belief that they are in the one chosen religion and all other religions and subsequent denominations are wrong. The Catholics also seem to have fairly strict ordinances regarding detailed aspects of your life and are very liturgical....and these things seem to be reasons that some left the Jw's. Catholicism also has it version of the Bible....again something that turned some Jw's off. Catholic history is steeped in 'new light' like teachings and the leaders hold their authority far above the average catholic member, believing that without their direction they would be totally lost on how to understand the Bible....again things that made ex-jw's say 'Wait a minute...you mean to tell me.....'.
Again I mean no offense, and I am sure that there are plenty of things that I am either off about or just dead wrong. So, please correctly me where I am wrong.
Actually, truth be told, I have found Fundamentalism to be much more strict, and Catholicism to be based much more on conscience.
As far as the Catholics considering themselves to be the one and only way, this has been answered pretty well. My studies have shown that the Church tends to be incredibly loving, almost bordering on universalism, but I have been corrected in the past on that.
As far as the issue of the Pope and Mary being worshipped....yeah, ya know, I have met people that go so far over board on the matter of the Pope and Mary to the point that they completely miss the point, that being Jesus. But for the most part, I really don't see the whole Pope worshipping thing too often.

How could an ex-JW become Catholic?
Head trauma.

Just kidding, ex-JW Mary-worshippers.
Er.
I mean Pope-lovers.
Sincerely,
Born-only-once-God-nonrecognizer
 funny
 
BlackSwan of Memphis
BlackSwan of Memphis 8 years ago

Tom, I was searching the net for a conversion story into Catholicism for ya, and I can't find one. For some reason, I had thought catholicxjw had one for you.
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 8 years ago

There are a few ex-JWs that I deeply respect, who all became Catholics. Tom Cabeen is one. Barbara Harrison Grazutti is another, and I think AK Jeff (I'm probably off on this, but I'll get it right eventually).
I completely disagree with their decisions. I've become an active atheist, and see Christianity as just another myth-based attempt to control people and give us a placebo for our fear of death.
That having been said, for many years, even as a JW elder, the writings of Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk, were very influential on me, and Merton was close friends with Thich Nhat Han, a Buddhist monk who was even a greater influence on me.
I'm not too quick to dismiss these Catholics that I've come to respect.
Tom - glad to see you post here. I think, as I was looking through some old district convention programs a few months ago, that you and I were on the same district convention program somewhere here in New England at one time. Who would have dared guess then where we would be today!!
S4
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 8 years ago

Hi Tom! waves~ Welcome! Good to see you!
Coffee  aka Debbie Shard
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
i don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.



Related Topics
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
Terry
The "Wound" may soon be healed? (The split between Orthodox and Catholic)
by Terry a month ago
freemindfade
FMF: A Wake Up Story
by freemindfade 6 months ago
Wonderment
"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17
by Wonderment 4 months ago
adimmedlight
Getting it out of my system, a VERY long introduction/outpouring..
by adimmedlight 9 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/152145/how-could-ex-jw-become-catholic?page=2&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
/  





 

How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle 8 years ago 54 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 8 years ago

I too have seemed to notice that the Catholic Church is more universalist than what the Watchtower would have us believe.
I dont believe there is any one true religion, not the Catholic Church and not even mine.
Catholics for the most part have the freedom to speak out against their church on matters of conscience, unlike the JW Cult.
We baptists have even been known to speak out against baptist churches every once in a while.
There is a much more sanctimonious tone to the JW rhetoric--"We have the truth" "We're not like those churches of Christendom" and so on.
You will seldom hear anyone knock the society from the platform, however even in my church we have been critical of our own denomination,even from the pulpit.
We cherish our freedom of speech and even if our church main denomination started imposing itself on us, we wouldnt tolerate it, we would withdraw, as most of the FWB churches would.
That is the difference in being in a church and being in a Cult.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 8 years ago

An earlier post pointed out how the Bible came out of the early church, not the other way around. I have had various Catholics try to explain it to me. The local orthodox parish has an explanation that rather makes sense to me in the place I am in right now. (On this topic, in any case). I am quoting from St. Andrews Antiochan Orthodox Church's website:
http://www.standrew-parish.org/new/orthodoxy.htm
"While the Church has had its fair share of problems rooted in human sinfulness, it never allowed its teachings to be corrupted in the manner that happened in the western church in the centuries before the Reformation, and thus it didn't need to be reformed and didn't suffer the tremendous loss of tradition that the western church did during that time.
"Scripture Alone" may sound like a good concept, and it certainly helped rally the reformers around something concrete in purging some of the worst excesses of the Roman Church, but it unfortunately misses the point. It was the Church that was to succeed Christ on Earth, and it was the Church that was to carry His teaching to the corners of the world. "Scripture Alone" raises the New Testament to a level of authority that it was never intended to have. Instead of being seen as a collection of texts that was a best (never was it seen as perfect) record of God's Revelation, in the teaching of the Reformation it was allowed to replace the Church as the main legacy of Christ.
Through Tradition the Christian Faith could be made accessible to everyone, not just those who were capable of reading, Christianity was from the very beginning a faith for everyone, slave and free man alike. The Bible is a human record of the Divine Revelation, but (though inspired by Him) it is not written by God, nor is it possible to interpret it without the context that Tradition provides: the New Testament was assembled by people who assumed that a lot of things were common knowledge and didn't need further explanation or elaboration."
Not to say this answers all questions of spirituality, but it may go a long way to explain the traditions of the church as being something acceptable to a reasoning and thinking person who DOES care about what the Bible says, but puts value on millenia long tradition for valid reasons.
 
Tom Cabeen
Tom Cabeen 8 years ago

I haven't published a conversion story yet on any web site. I've given an in-progress one to a few friends, but have been working on how to tell the story concisely and correctly. I still have a lot to learn, but I may have a brief telling of the story before too long.
 
Tom Cabeen
Tom Cabeen 8 years ago

Seeker4
 Was that in New Haven, CT in July of 1980? I think I gave the keynote address at that convention. Shortly after that convention, we left Bethel and that was the end of that. Never spoke at a District Assembly again. Don't miss 'em. Are you still in New England?
 
Tom Cabeen
Tom Cabeen 8 years ago

To CoffeeBlack:
 Hi Deb!
 I am having to get used to seeing male icons for females and vise versa. I like your suit. Hope you are doing well.
 
Satanus
Satanus 8 years ago

The church has more places for more people. Different kinds of monasteries, nunneries, all kinds of outreaches to help disadvantaged of all kinds. And, they don't ask much, in return, many times, nothing. True, most catholics are not very religious. I don't blame the church for that. Should the church punish people for that? The church is there for them, if they should need. Jesus is portrayed like that. If people want to go deep, as tom pointed out, there is a lot of deapth in that church. Yes, they did make the bible. Christianity was never meant to be totally bible governed. The bible was merely one support, the church being the other. Sola scriptura was a protestant invention.
S
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 8 years ago

Hey Tom....glad you like the suit... My avatar changes from time to time... this one is a picture of my son... who will be a new dad in March! Time flies, doesn't it?
Great to see you posting here...look forward to more!
Coffee
 
BlackSwan of Memphis
BlackSwan of Memphis 8 years ago

I haven't published a conversion story yet on any web site. I've given an in-progress one to a few friends, but have been working on how to tell the story concisely and correctly. I still have a lot to learn, but I may have a brief telling of the story before too long.
Well than I shall keep my eye open for it. I would be most interested to read it.
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 8 years ago

Tom, I'm still in New England - up here in Vermont. I've never been to a DC in CT. Most were in MA (Springfield or Amherst) or Maine (Portland), one or two in NH way back, a few in Canada and one in Rhode Island and one in NY.
Coffee Black - Nice new avatar. Do you have something to tell us??
S4
 
Lo-ru-hamah
Lo-ru-hamah 8 years ago

We went to a Catholic Mass for a funeral a few months ago and I was impressed with the services. It was a lot of praying, singing and renumerating of the promises that Jesus made to his followers. Not too long after that I went to my neighbors church to watch their kids in the Christmas play. (Assembly of God) I was completely turned off. It reminded me of attending a KH. The inside looked just like one. The preacher was the sort that tried to look at you until you looked away. Which I didn't. Tons of asking for donations and the participants weekly tithe. Afterwards, the congregation was cold and unfriendly. If I was looking for a church, which I am not, I would be much more prone to attend the Catholic Church. Just a side note, at least in the Catholic Church, there is plenty to look at to if you get bored of the sermon.
Sheri
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

there is plenty to look at to if you get bored of the sermon.
A visual sermon. A gospel in art. That is how I think of it. I love the Stations of the Cross.
Burn
 
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

JWDaughter:
Excellent comment! I particularly like this part:
Through Tradition the Christian Faith could be made accessible to everyone, not just those who were capable of reading, Christianity was from the very beginning a faith for everyone, slave and free man alike. The Bible is a human record of the Divine Revelation, but (though inspired by Him) it is not written by God, nor is it possible to interpret it without the context that Tradition provides: the New Testament was assembled by people who assumed that a lot of things were common knowledge and didn't need further explanation or elaboration."
In our modern times, it is easy to forget that for the first 1500 years (at least) of Christianity, individual Christians did not have regular access to copies of the Holy Scriptures. Many could not read either.
That is why the Liturgy of the Word -- in which scripture is proclaimed in the Mass -- was so vitally important. It is also why the great cathedrals have stained glass windows -- they were Bibles in glass that could be "read" by everyone.
As to the parting of ways between the Eastern and Western Church, both Pope Benedict XVI (as well as John Paul II before him) and the Patriarch of Constantinople (and other Eastern Church leaders) are in prayerful dialogue regarding Christian Unity. I have two friends who are Russian Orthodox. The Orthodox faith is beautiful and apostolic.
Pax,
Ruth
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 8 years ago

Coffee Black - Nice new avatar. Do you have something to tell us??
S4.... my avatar is a picture of my son, David.... just changing things up a bit...the last one was a picture of my daughter....have to give them equal time doncha know....
Coffee
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 8 years ago

Hmmm...that's what I suspected.
I'm busy watching the Super Tuesday returns tonight. I love that we have political races with several candidates that one can actually believe in!!
S4
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 7 years ago

Of possible interest to those who were interested in this thread. Australian lay Catholic apologist John Francis Coffey has given permission for his lectures and writings in response to the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses to be freely distributed on the Internet. For those interested, these can now be found at Internet Archive. A listing of these audio lecture pages follows. (Each audio lecture page also contains a text of the lecture available in PDF): After Jehovah's Witnesses, What?: http://www.archive.org/details/AfterJehovahsWitnessesWhat  The Testimony of History for the Catholic Church: http://www.archive.org/details/TheTestimonyOfHistoryForTheCatholicChurch  The Catholic Church and the Bible: http://www.archive.org/details/TheCatholicChurchAndTheBible  The Catholic Church and the Papacy: http://www.archive.org/details/TheCatholicChurchAndThePapacy  Three Doctrines: Purgatory, Eucharist, Virgin Mary: http://www.archive.org/details/ThreeDoctrinesPurgatoryEucharistVirginMary   The text for all the audio lectures are also available here in this PDF: http://www.archive.org/details/JehovahsWitnessesAndTheCatholicChurch  Coffey's book "The Gospel According to Jehovah's Witnesses" is also available at Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/details/TheGospelAccordingToJehovahsWitnesses The book was published in the late 80s and the talks date from about 1990 to 1993. So, they are a bit dated but may still be of interest to some here.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
i don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.



Related Topics
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
Terry
The "Wound" may soon be healed? (The split between Orthodox and Catholic)
by Terry a month ago
freemindfade
FMF: A Wake Up Story
by freemindfade 6 months ago
Wonderment
"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17
by Wonderment 4 months ago
adimmedlight
Getting it out of my system, a VERY long introduction/outpouring..
by adimmedlight 9 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/152145/how-could-ex-jw-become-catholic?page=3&size=20