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Inbreeding Polygamist Mormons Creates Fumarase Deficiency
Started by  All Gods Fail , Aug 31 2006 05:28 PM
 
This topic is locked This topic is locked
 2 replies to this topic  .



 
 #1     All Gods Fail 


Pope of The Cute Bunny™ Church

Senior Member

1,390 posts
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Bun-damentalist

Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:28 PM
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is essentially conducting a Nazi-style breeding program, resulting in a truly horrible (and easily preventable) birth defect: fumarase deficiency. And nobody seems to want to stop them.
Entire article here.

Quote

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler, another lifelong Colorado City resident who was excommunicated from the FLDS in January 2004. Wyler's ex-wife's sister has had two babies afflicted with fumarase deficiency. "Right now, we are just looking at the tip of the iceberg."
For more than 70 years, all marriages in the isolated towns have been arranged by the leader of the FLDS, a breakaway sect of the Salt Lake City-based Mormon Church.
Marriages among first and second cousins have been common for decades in the community, where religious doctrine requires men to have at least three wives to gain eternal salvation. Only the FLDS prophet can arrange and perform polygamous marriages, and those marriages are taking place in a community in which almost everybody is related.
The current FLDS prophet is 50-year-old Warren Jeffs, who has not been seen publicly since August 2003. Last June, Jeffs was charged with seven felonies by Mohave County, Arizona, in connection with his performance of "spiritual" marriages of three underage girls to already married men. He was placed on the FBI's most wanted list last August. Eight other Colorado City polygamists have been indicted by a Mohave County grand jury for having unlawful sex with underage girls who were their plural wives.
And we complain about Islamic fundamentalists. What these sickos are doing is almost as bad as suicide bombing. How much unnecessary suffering, pedophilia, and even death has been committed by the FLDS?
The state and the Fed seem to be largely unconcerned, and simply pass the expenses off to us taxpayers. Why is this shit being allowed in America? :screams:
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 #2     Markkasan 


Doubter

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :The Human Spirit

Posted 01 September 2006 - 11:52 PM
It can't be proven, that's why. What witness is going to testify if that witness is going to be pressured into remaining silent by 10,000 fanatics? Hearsay is inadmissable in court, so that's why this goes on.
 It really does boil my blood, though. These bastards need to be destroyed, by armed force if necessary.

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 #3     comix 


Doubter

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Interests:computers (MAC), podiobooks, Audiobooks, gardening, movies, old time radio, history, science
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not so much

Posted 02 September 2006 - 12:13 AM

Markkasan, on Sep 1 2006, 09:52 PM, said:

It can't be proven, that's why. What witness is going to testify if that witness is going to be pressured into remaining silent by 10,000 fanatics? Hearsay is inadmissable in court, so that's why this goes on.
It really does boil my blood, though. These bastards need to be destroyed, by armed force if necessary.
Unbelievable! I saw a short program about women that have escaped these nutballs and how they are trying to help other women still caught up in these "marriages". These poor ladies are kept out of school and have no skills that they could use to support themselves. Some of them were trying to get their kids out to protect them and some of them left there kids behind. They also talked quite a bit about being afraid that they were going to hell for leaving! disgusting :ugh:
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Fourteen By Nicole Barnette
Started by  REBOOT , Oct 11 2007 11:59 AM
 
This topic is locked This topic is locked
 7 replies to this topic  .
 

Poll: Tolerance... (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Should this be tolerated
Yes  (0 votes [0.00%])



No  (9 votes [90.00%])



Maybe  (1 votes [10.00%])




 


 
 #1     REBOOT 


Ignostic Fruitloop

Senior Member

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Interests:The boundaries of our perceived universe<br />The speculations as to what lies beyond.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :IGNOSTIC: Hans is a god but ignores it !!!

Posted 11 October 2007 - 11:59 AM
http://video.aol.com...teen/3780797438
This stuff still happens ?

Quote

It's amazing to think of how much can be said in 7 minutes of film, particularly 7 minutes without dialog or narration. One only hears the sounds of objects and random noise of kids at play. Yet the movie is very lyrical in its graceful camera-work. Short film tends to get a bad name because most of what is produced is well...quite awful, to be honest. But in the hands of the talented it becomes a powerful medium. Nicole is one of the talented.
The film touches on a subject that is not well known even in America although what is depicted takes place in large swaths of several Western states under the guise of religion freedom. I would love to know what led Nicole to the subject matter.http://www.imdb.com/...492621/combined
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 #2     Skiergirl24 


Skeptic

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Location:Oxford, Ohio
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :don't think so

Posted 15 October 2007 - 09:14 PM
Insane. Read "Under the Banner of Heaven." It is a real eye opener. sick.





REBOOT, on Oct 11 2007, 11:59 AM, said:

http://video.aol.com...teen/3780797438
This stuff still happens ?


Quote

It's amazing to think of how much can be said in 7 minutes of film, particularly 7 minutes without dialog or narration. One only hears the sounds of objects and random noise of kids at play. Yet the movie is very lyrical in its graceful camera-work. Short film tends to get a bad name because most of what is produced is well...quite awful, to be honest. But in the hands of the talented it becomes a powerful medium. Nicole is one of the talented.
The film touches on a subject that is not well known even in America although what is depicted takes place in large swaths of several Western states under the guise of religion freedom. I would love to know what led Nicole to the subject matter.http://www.imdb.com/...492621/combined


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 #3     Skiergirl24 


Skeptic

Regular Member

494 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :don't think so

Posted 15 October 2007 - 09:23 PM
http://www.helpthechildbrides.com/
check out this site for more info.

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 #4     Dhampir 


I'm the ThunderGod, Bitch!!!

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 09:34 PM
Damn. I couldn't even make myself watch it. Too scared.

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 #5     HuaiDan 


Sage

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no

Posted 16 October 2007 - 12:44 AM
Is there polygamy going on here? What is the focus on? Her age or the polygamy? I assume the woman the groom kisses in the kitchen is one of his current wives.
 Child bride alone, not to be tolerated. In this culture, anyway.
 Child bride and polygamy, well duh, not to be tolerated. In this culture.
 As for polygamy, I'm not so sure that should be legislated. Overall, I don't thin it's a good idea, but between consenting adults I really don't see a reason to impinge on their rights.
Edited by HuaiDan, 16 October 2007 - 12:47 AM.
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 #6     GraphicsGuy 


Somewhere between here and there

☆ Silver Patron ☆

2,463 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Alberta, Canada
Interests:I like to laugh, tell corny jokes, be sarcastic, tell women how cute they are, listen to very hard music, drive fast, and a host of other things.
 That said, I'm still pretty old-school, courteous, and way-too-nice-and-easy-going...scratch that, I've learned that I'm not all that easy-going...I'm rather intense and a bit of a misanthrope. Having the blinders pulled off made me realize how many idiots are walking around out there.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Bippety Boppety Boo! *poof* Nope...

Posted 16 October 2007 - 01:00 AM
Yes, polygamous situation. The guy has four wives and little 14 year-old Hannah is his newest addition. The eldest/first wife obviously hates that he's doing this, but seems to believe that whatever religion they're in (Mormons?) is correct and she must follow the commandments...
 ...unless it's her husband's commandments...???
 Plus the mother obviously hates giving up her daughter. Overall it's showing the brain-washing that religion is capable of.

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 #7     HuaiDan 


Sage

Regular Member

2,563 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no

Posted 16 October 2007 - 03:05 AM
How do you know he has 4 wives? Was it shown in the movie? I'm feeling pretty unobservant.

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 #8     woodsmoke 


"You're not worthy."

Senior Member

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Sorry, go fish.

Posted 20 October 2007 - 02:48 PM
It never explicitly says the man is a polygamist, but speaking as one who's grown up in Polygamy Central, USA, all the hallmarks of a commune are there.
And Graphics, the film is probably set in a generic version of one of the offshoots of Mormonism that have sprung up over the past century. The LDS church hasn't officially sanctioned polygamy since the Manifesto was released by Wilfurd Woodruff in 1890 (pretty much done so Utah would be allowed to enter the union). Obviously, some groups still practice it, and they're usually distinguished from mainstream Mormons by the "fundamentalist" tag (though fundamentalist Mormons as a whole shouldn't be confused with members of the FLDS church based in the borderlands of southern Utah and northern New Mexico, led until recently by the now locally infamous and incarcerated Warren Jeffs).
As for Reboot's original question:

REBOOT, on Oct 11 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

http://video.aol.com...teen/3780797438
This stuff still happens ?
Unfortunately, yes. There are about a dozen extended polygamist families living in and around Utah which contain most of it, but they're.. tricky to legally root out and expose to the light of potential prosecution. Pretty well all those communes are (almost) totally self-sufficient; making everything they need, dealing with all issues internally, and basically living completely under the radar of the "outside world." In truth, the level of practical political immunity the people living in these communities have obtained is enough to turn any "live off the land" hippie or "Don't tread on me" individualist green with envy (if also usually purple with rage at the things they subsequently do with that impunity).
About the only ones who ever do get caught are those who were so stupid their downfall was inevitable and only a matter of time (Tom Green, Warren Jeffs) and those who aren't really doing anything wrong (i.e. no coercion or marriage of minors) but, for whatever reason, aren't as careful as the political climate in this country warrants.
Edited by woodsmoke, 20 October 2007 - 03:38 PM.
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Westboro Baptist Defections
Started by  CynicalGoat , Aug 23 2015 09:08 PM
 
This topic is locked This topic is locked
 16 replies to this topic  .



 
 #1     CynicalGoat 


Thinker

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I am the author of my own destiny

Posted 23 August 2015 - 09:08 PM

On a whim I watched the documentaries by Louis Theroux on Westboro Baptist Church entitled The Most Hated Family in America and America's Most Hated Family in Crisis. The first was a general documentary about them, what they believed, and why they did the things they did. The second was a follow up, maybe five years later, about how the family was doing in spite of a number of high profile people leaving the church and the declining health of the patriarch Fred Phelps (who has since died).
 
I found myself becoming fascinated with the family. Not the vile and despicable hate they spew, but the dichotomy between them being EXTREMELY nice and accommodating, even to Louis, an outsider who was obviously there to make them look bad. Perhaps even more inexplicable was how they treated one another. Sure, they are uber conservative, subjugate their women, etc. but they were incredibly close and incredibly loving to one another.
 
Since those documentaries, two more Phelps have defected. Perhaps the most high profile yet. Megan and Grace, daughters of Shirley, the ring leader of the hateful protests, left about a year ago. Megan gave an interview with Sam Harris that was fantastic, which can be found here. Likewise, Megan wrote a statement here which is even more fantastic, perhaps the most fantastic of all. Finally, she and her sister have a blog called Gypsies & Sinners which contains some heartfelt and heart-breaking insights from the women.
 
I have become emotionally invested in their story. It plays like a wonderful film which contains the heart break, joy and searching for truth and meaning, but it is all real, happening to real people. These are humans who have been hurt, but are now healing. Hearing how painful it is to be separated from their families, feeling the weight of their words, has moved me immensely.
 
I don't really have much else to say but follow their story. It is one of the most human journeys I have come across in a long time and it is worth every minute.

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 #2     Fweethawt 


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Posted 23 August 2015 - 11:55 PM
The interview between Megan Phelps and Sam Harris really forced me to see that family in a different light.
 I finished it sincerely believing that Megan was one of the best people I've ever heard speak. She is a genuinely GOOD person.
 First chance I get, I will definitely read the statement to which you posted a link. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks.
 

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 #3     Thrive 


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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:51 AM

Thank you for the links, it sounds like you really connected with their story.  Being raised in Utah I have this same facination with the FLDS and the stories of those who have escaped.  It is easy to denounce it from the outside, but to hear what it is like to be raised in an enviornment like this eye opening.

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 #4     SCM 


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Posted 24 August 2015 - 01:11 AM

I watched a documentary on youtube a couple of years back of a defector from westboro (I don't think it was a phelps, but I can't remember) and the showed two or three people stories from westboro and similar churches, It amazed me how these people who left their communities and got fully cut off, with little/no education or job history (women especially), it supprised me to see their enthusiasm and "zest" in recovering their lives back or making new ones with decent people and relationships who appreciated them. some went to considerably more liberal and positive churches and some quit altogether, but I loved seeing their "happy ending" as such and the look on their faces now.

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 #5     Fweethawt 


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Posted 24 August 2015 - 01:15 AM
To listen to Megan you would never think she lacks an education. She's very intelligent.
 

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 #6     Daffodil 


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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:37 AM
Tried to watch the first one. Couldn't get past the beginning. Watching the second one now. The "show" the young women put on for the presenter was quite interesting. They were dressed and dancing in a way that I never would have thought a super conservative body of believers would ever allow. The music they're using (Lady Gaga, for instance) means they have to listen to that stuff in order to make a parody of it. One of the women used the word "ass". They dress conservatively in church, even covering the women's heads with scarves, but dress like any other American the rest of the time. They don't seem to be consistent! Most fundy types, like the Duggards, are pretty consistent in their rejection of all things secular, to the point that they're ignorant of the music, literature, etc. that the rest of us are familiar with. This family seems to have one foot in the fundy world and one in the secular world. I did not expect that at all!
 The cold-hearted shunning of former loved ones who have chosen a different path is sad, but not surprising. It is incredible that all it took for them to shun one girl was her basically just back-talking about a bikini! She didn't even want to leave, but they decided she wanted to be "worldly" and had to leave! She seems lost and sad now, still grieving over being kicked out.
 At one point the presenter mentioned that the children/young people have no hope for marriage because they are not allowed to get to know anyone outside of the family. How heart-breaking! I suspect that will be what draws the younger folks out of this crazy cult. It is so telling when one of the young women is clearly in love with a member of a Dutch film crew they met previously, and yet she persists in her ludicrous views that he is going to hell. Despite her words, she is clearly conflicted!
 Despite the disturbing indoctrination of the children (and my god, there are a lot of children!), I feel reassured that the crazier they get, the fewer and fewer of them will stick with it. Eventually I think they will be an embarrassing memory of our past.
Edited by Daffodil, 24 August 2015 - 11:40 AM.
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 #7     CynicalGoat 


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Posted 24 August 2015 - 08:06 PM

You mention the young woman who was in love with the Dutch film guy. I think that was Grace Phelps. She left the church about a year ago and was recently on a trip to Europe (including the Netherlands). So I am thinking there is hope for those two!!
 
The other interesting thing to note is the drama surrounding Fred Phelps (the patriarch) during his final days. He was essentially excommunicated because he started to promote a kinder, less hateful approach (http://cjonline.com/...s-within-church). Grace also alludes to it in a blog post to him, found here.

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 #8     Daffodil 


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Posted 24 August 2015 - 10:31 PM

CynicalGoat, on 24 Aug 2015 - 9:06 PM, said:

You mention the young woman who was in love with the Dutch film guy. I think that was Grace Phelps. She left the church about a year ago and was recently on a trip to Europe (including the Netherlands). So I am thinking there is hope for those two!!
 
 The other interesting thing to note is the drama surrounding Fred Phelps (the patriarch) during his final days. He was essentially excommunicated because he started to promote a kinder, less hateful approach (http://cjonline.com/...s-within-church). Grace also alludes to it in a blog post to him, found here.

 Holy crap that's fascinating! To be tossed out on his ear by the church he himself founded! I'm actually a bit sorry for him. I always thought the church was made up almost entirely of the Phelps family. Sounds like a coup! And it also sounds like the female members of the family that seemed to have had almost an equal status as Phelps, Sr. have been smacked down to their "proper" place as women.
 It reminds me of the evolution of the early church - it started out very democratic, with everyone voting on what was needed. Then as it grew, committees were formed, then elders, then a whole beauraucracy evolved and it morphed into the patriarchal mess it is now.
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 #9     SCM 


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Posted 25 August 2015 - 07:04 PM

Daffodil, on 24 Aug 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:


Tried to watch the first one. Couldn't get past the beginning. Watching the second one now. The "show" the young women put on for the presenter was quite interesting. They were dressed and dancing in a way that I never would have thought a super conservative body of believers would ever allow. The music they're using (Lady Gaga, for instance) means they have to listen to that stuff in order to make a parody of it. One of the women used the word "ass". They dress conservatively in church, even covering the women's heads with scarves, but dress like any other American the rest of the time. They don't seem to be consistent! Most fundy types, like the Duggards, are pretty consistent in their rejection of all things secular, to the point that they're ignorant of the music, literature, etc. that the rest of us are familiar with. This family seems to have one foot in the fundy world and one in the secular world. I did not expect that at all!
 
 
It doesn't surprise me to hear this, westboro seems to be a more fighting the world than separating itself from it style. remember the thing was started by phelps sr who was a lawyer, and I heard the church has a large amount of lawyers in it or working for it. they seem comfortable using secular world things (such as dress and re-wording songs) to use them to fight "the world". they do have more grounding in grassroots movement practicality (if you see their large sign storage room). i think phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer before westboro.

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 #10     Burnedout 


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Posted 25 August 2015 - 07:34 PM

I have a very good friend of mine who grew up in the Kansas City, KS area who had a face to face conversation with old Freddy Phelps himself.  From what I was told, the reason that Westboro and Phelps are the way they are is that they are hard core full tulip Calvinists. 

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 #11     Jeff 


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Posted 25 August 2015 - 09:13 PM
KcK huh? That's tough. :/

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 #12     Burnedout 


Committee of Libertarians Chief Pain in the Ass

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 09:42 PM

Jeff, on 25 Aug 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

KcK huh? That's tough. :/
 He graduated from Turner HS.
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 #13     StarGazer 


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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:49 AM

I was always fascinated by the Westboro Baptist Church. They represent the uglier doctrines of Christianity, and stick to them. I feel like that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, because a lot of people don't want to admit that it's all in the Bible.
 
I suppose I could credit them with helping me grow out of Christianity (The first time around). Seeing their vile attacks on the deceased, as well as my developing bisexuality, struck a chord with me, and it didn't make sense to me. The Westboro Baptist Church and what they stood for, didn't correlate with the Christianity that my Catholic school had shown me.

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 #14     StarGazer 


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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:49 AM

StarGazer, on 26 Aug 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:


 
 
 

Edited by StarGazer, 26 August 2015 - 11:51 AM.
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 #15     CynicalGoat 


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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:34 PM
In all honesty, I see the as the truest form of Christianity available in North America at the moment. Sure, they are vile and full of hate, but they don't force the bible to fit their own sensibilities.
 In contrast to them, all other christians are simply diluted by secular ideals and morals. And that is a GREAT thing. Luckily, groups like that tend to fall apart over time, which I think we are already seeing.

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 #16     Daffodil 


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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:49 PM

CynicalGoat, on 27 Aug 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

In all honesty, I see the as the truest form of Christianity available in North America at the moment. Sure, they are vile and full of hate, but they don't force the bible to fit their own sensibilities.
 In contrast to them, all other christians are simply diluted by secular ideals and morals. And that is a GREAT thing. Luckily, groups like that tend to fall apart over time, which I think we are already seeing.
 Have to disagree with you there. They seem to have read the OT, skipped the gospels, then picked up right where Paul gets going. I see nothing remotely "Christlike" in their behavior or morals.
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 #17     CynicalGoat 


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Posted 27 August 2015 - 06:50 PM
They seem to get the whole "hate your family" thing down pat. As far as they are concerned they are loving god by upholding his commands and loving their neighbors by trying to show them the error of their ways.
 It's horrible and despicable and completely ineffective, but like I said, they aren't watering down the bible with secular morals. Jesus had a lot of potentially hateful things to say (according to the bible).

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the young men who get booted from the FLDS have no where to go just like the Amish guys. fucking hell...I HATE bible religion!!!!!! PS didn't you ...



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Escaping The Amish For A Connected World
Started by  Burnedout , Feb 17 2016 09:00 PM
 
This topic is locked This topic is locked
 1 reply to this topic  .



 
 #1     Burnedout 


Committee of Libertarians Chief Pain in the Ass

Regular Member

28,852 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Pensacola, FL...Formerly of TN
Interests:Politics ( I HATE HIGH TAXES!!!), Just chilling, traveling. A member of the Joe Stack Memorial Fan Club. FUCK PEACE,....GIVE ME FREEDOM!!! I want ALL my meals to have the largest carbon footprint possible.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Too heavy to think about for now

Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:00 PM

Quote
Escaping the Amish for a Connected World
 
When Emma Gingerich left her Amish community in Eagleville, Missouri, she was 18 and had an eighth-grade education. She barely spoke English.
The life that awaited most Amish women—one of cooking, cleaning, and child-rearing—never appealed to her. She wanted an education and the freedom to choose her own path. [Snipped]
https://www.yahoo.co...-144323886.html
 

Edited by Burnedout, 17 February 2016 - 09:01 PM.
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 #2     rjn 


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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nah. A spiritual world view at best.

Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:43 AM
Meh... I kinda admire groups such as the Mennonites and the Amish. Hardworking, self-sufficient and off the grid, free of the ills of modern society. Scrap the fundamentalism and loosen up on some of the restrictions, and I'd have no objections at all. But then again, then they wouldn't be much different from a bunch of hippies.

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Am I The Only Ex Mennonite Amish Person On Exchristian.net?
Started by  R. S. Martin , Jan 11 2008 01:32 PM
 

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 #1     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

9,215 posts
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Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 11 January 2008 - 01:32 PM
I'm curious if there are any other ex-Mennonite or Amish or other Anabaptist churches represented here at exChristian.net. I know there's ex Southern Baptists here by the droves but I understand Baptists come from a different tradition than the Mennonites and Amish.
 I'm curious why we don't see more exMennonites here but so many people from other denominations. Is it because Mennonites span the full range from ultra conservative to ultra liberal? There are horse and buggy Mennonites who are more conservative than the group I come from. And there are Mennonites who are so liberal that they don't believe in hell and the historical Jesus is pretty iffy, and the concept of God is anything but fundy Biblegod. They probably don't believe in an afterlife, either. But you better call them Christian. It's who they are and they view the world through the lens of Christianity.
 I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly how liberal this one church really is. The one lady works at the Mennonite credit union where I have my bank account. She knows that I deconverted. She also knows that I do my business at the credit union. My deconversion must not figure very importantly with her if she has not reported my deconversion. No one has told me that I should move my account to a "secular" institution. Perhaps there are other deconverts there and nobody cares. However, when I started up the account I had to put in the name of the church I was attending.
 So it seems to be possible to be Mennonite but not be really religious. Is that why we don't see more exMennonites here? Or are they here and I just don't see them?

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 #2     pandora 


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Posted 11 January 2008 - 06:19 PM
I think I've seen a few come and go, but they weren't regulars. One of my profs is an ex-Christian Mennonite. :)

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 #3     Franciscan Monkey 


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Posted 11 January 2008 - 07:10 PM
RubySera,
 My guess as to the main reason you don't see that many ex-Mennonites or Amish here is due to the much smaller numbers of total Mennonites and Amish people period. In the US, there are approximately 368,000 Mennonites and 200,000 Amish, whereas there are about 50 million Baptists. So there are 88 Baptists in the US for every Mennonite or Amish.
 Respectfully,
 FRanciscan Monkey

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 #4     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 11 January 2008 - 08:27 PM
Okay, I didn't know the numbers for the Baptists. It's hard for me to visualize because the historical Mennonite areas I know have such high concentrations of Mennonites that there's hardly room for equal numbers of Baptists (or any other denomination) in the same area. However, if the Baptists are spread through the wide open areas between the Mennonite settlements, then we are definitely talking numbers way beyond anything comparable with Mennonites or Amish.
There are quite a number of modern Mennonite churches in this town. I understand Mennonites from Pennsylvania were the first white settlers to chop down trees where this city now stands. I know of at least two Baptist churches. I'd have to check the telephone directory to know--okay I pulled it out. Fifteen names under Baptist Churches. Twenty-five under Mennonite. Lutheran: 30. If counting addresses in the Yellow Pages indicates the size of denominations in a town, I now understand why the Pennsylvania German culture is so strong in this town. I didn't check--there might be other denominations between the size of the Baptists and Mennonites in this town, but there are none between the Mennonites and Lutherans. [LATER: I counted churches for the other longest lists. They appear below. This is the 2006 telephone directory.]
And I know from local history that them two denominations come from the same place in Europe, spoke the same dialect. In my great grandparents' day they socialized and intermarried. Up to WW2 the Lutherans spoke PA German. Less then ten years ago I talked with an old guy who spoke the same dialect with identical accent as us. The Mennonites in Lancaster County, PA, have a different accent from us. So do the Amish. But not the Lutherans in this area--the few remaining senior citizens who speak it.
Roman Catholics spoke it, too. They used to live in the rural area but the younger generations moved to the city and the horse and buggy Mennonites took over their farms. You can imagine that the Mennonites thought about the story of God chasing the Canaanites out of the Promised Land for the Chosen People. Of course, we were the Chosen People and the Catholics were the Canaanites. And since they had martyred our ancestors in Europe back in the 1500s, it all made sense that they got routed. UGH! This kind of thinking gave one the fuzzies alright, but even then I wondered if it was correct according to God's view, and how we could know for sure. Not the kind of questions one could ask. And God never answered.
Anyway, you can see why I had no idea that there were all that many Baptists in the land. So where are they? Am I right in that they are spread throughout the areas between the Mennonite-Amish settlements in about the same concentration that they exist within our areas? Or are the concentrations heavier where there are not so many Mennonites and Amish?
Numbers of Churches in the Largest Denominations in MyTown,* 2006. Population about 400,000.
Baptist 15
Evangelical Missionary 11
Lutheran 30
Mennonite 25
Pentecostal 12
Presbyterian 9
Roman Catholic 22
United Church of Canada 17
*This does not include the horse and buggy Mennonite geographical area. Any Mennonites represented in this list are modern Mennonites who live and dress like mainstream society. In the horse and buggy Mennonite area, the concentration of Mennonites is much higher.

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 #5     Franciscan Monkey 


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Posted 11 January 2008 - 09:25 PM
RunySera,
 I live in Florida, so the concentration of Baptist churches is much higher, although not as high as it was in South Carolina, where I lived for awhile. I am originally from New England, and tere were very few Baptist churches there, but a lot of Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, and Congregational churches.
 Just for fun, I looked in my yellow pages just like you did, and got these results:
 Baptist (all types)

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 #6     Franciscan Monkey 


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Posted 11 January 2008 - 09:34 PM
Sorry, screwed that up, anyway...
 Baptist 41
 Lutheran 13
 Pentecostal 12
 Presbyterian 11
 Catholic 11
 Methodist 8
 Episcopal 8
 Seventh Day Adventist 3
 LDS 2
 Brethren 1
 This list didn't inlcude all denominations, of course, but you get the drift.
 Respectfully,
 Franciscan Monkey

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 #7     live and learn 


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Posted 11 January 2008 - 10:29 PM
Hi RubySera,
 I was raised as a Mennonite...until I escaped that stranglehold and moved over to the stranglehold of the pentecostals.(Smart move, huh? Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire.)
 The church my family belonged to was more liberal than yours, but my mother leaned far to conservative side. We had to wear hand sewn dresses/no pants/no jewelry/no makeup/no haircuts/no movies/no non-Xtian music, no so many things. On the other hand, we actually had a car, and it didn't have to be all black (including all chrome parts) like our neighbors.
 My grandparents on both sides were typical very Old Order Mennonites, full black bonnet-horse and buggy-black stockings-beard-hat-no buttons-Pa. Dutch. My father was required to drop out of school in 8th grade. I was a very bad girl and went to college..but a Mennonite college, at least. And once I was away from my family/church/god controlling every thought in my head, I started to try to see who I was and who I did not want to be. It was a very convulated path out. But I have over the past 30 years been able to start to leave who I was and begin to become a full person.
 Yup, I learned to smoke both cigs and pot, drink, and swear like a sailor. I had a child out of wedlock, married a junkie, divorced, and became the rock and roll, slutty, shrink-seeing jet black sheep of the family. I've come back towards the center, not needing to be far out religious nor far out mega-sinner, recognizing that I do not want to be a person who is defined by what other people think I should be. I have the freedom to act by what I want, not by doing what other people want OR by doing the extreme opposite just to fell free of that.
 I'd be happy to talk about any of this. Let me know if you have questions.
 A fellow X-Menno

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 #8     The-Captain 


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Posted 11 January 2008 - 11:26 PM
When I was a serious fundy I played with the idea of going Amish or something like that...... Scary that I wouldve wished that oppression on myself, but I kinda bought into the whole "being apart from the world" that started the Amish in the first place. But in my deluded state o' mind it seemed perfectly logical if I wanted to follow all the babbles good orders.
 Dont know about ya'll but whenever I read the stories of xians doing terrible things to themselves and others in the "name o' god", I shudder b/c I can remember when I might have done much the same.

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 #9     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

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Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 12 January 2008 - 03:15 AM

live and learn, on Jan 11 2008, 09:29 PM, said:

Hi RubySera,
I was raised as a Mennonite...until I escaped that stranglehold and moved over to the stranglehold of the pentecostals.(Smart move, huh? Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire.)
The church my family belonged to was more liberal than yours, but my mother leaned far to conservative side. We had to wear hand sewn dresses/no pants/no jewelry/no makeup/no haircuts/no movies/no non-Xtian music, no so many things. On the other hand, we actually had a car, and it didn't have to be all black (including all chrome parts) like our neighbors.
My grandparents on both sides were typical very Old Order Mennonites, full black bonnet-horse and buggy-black stockings-beard-hat-no buttons-Pa. Dutch. My father was required to drop out of school in 8th grade. I was a very bad girl and went to college..but a Mennonite college, at least. And once I was away from my family/church/god controlling every thought in my head, I started to try to see who I was and who I did not want to be. It was a very convulated path out. But I have over the past 30 years been able to start to leave who I was and begin to become a full person.
Yup, I learned to smoke both cigs and pot, drink, and swear like a sailor. I had a child out of wedlock, married a junkie, divorced, and became the rock and roll, slutty, shrink-seeing jet black sheep of the family. I've come back towards the center, not needing to be far out religious nor far out mega-sinner, recognizing that I do not want to be a person who is defined by what other people think I should be. I have the freedom to act by what I want, not by doing what other people want OR by doing the extreme opposite just to fell free of that.
I'd be happy to talk about any of this. Let me know if you have questions.
A fellow X-Menno
The beard and no buttons makes me think perhaps your grandparents were Amish rather than Mennonite. Might that be correct? Your name "live and learn"--maybe that's a common term used by any and all cultures but the only place I heard it a lot was when I was babysitting for a modern Mennonite family. The mother worked at House of Friendship in Kitchener. You don't have to answer this, but "live and learn," Mennonite, I'm wondering if by any chance you grew up near here. Yet the way you describe the rules of your church for thirty years ago--I can't think of any group of Mennonites in the Waterloo County area that fitted that description thirty years ago. Heh, you can tell I like "guess who" games. :)
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 #10     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

9,215 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 12 January 2008 - 03:35 AM

Franciscan Monkey, on Jan 11 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

Sorry, screwed that up, anyway...
Baptist 41
Lutheran 13
Pentecostal 12
Presbyterian 11
Catholic 11
Methodist 8
Episcopal 8
Seventh Day Adventist 3
LDS 2
Brethren 1
This list didn't inlcude all denominations, of course, but you get the drift.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
Your posts are beginning to give me some perspective on the situation. On the list here, there are 110 churches, and 41 of those are Baptist of some kind. The next in size, Lutheran, is less than one third the size of Baptist. Just now I added up the churches in my list--there's 141 but the numbers are much more evenly distributed. Interesting.
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 #11     Medjool 


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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:44 AM
I was a converted Mennonite and attended a moderate-liberal Menno church in Pennsylvania. I grew up Methodist and attended a Baptist-ish college, but was entranced by the Mennonites and joined the church for several years before I finally fully deconverted altogether. I'll put it all in my upcoming extimony, but I'll say now that I truly loved my church. It was special and perhaps unique. People were so genuine and I loved the focus on this world, rather than the next life focus I'd grown up with. When I moved across the country, however, the Menno church in my new city was more of the same old church politics and god-talk I'd always known as Christianity. So I stopped attending and came to my senses. But every so often, I honestly wonder if I might still consider myself a Christian (albeit very liberal) if I still lived in PA and could go back to that church....
 Having had glimpses of the conservative Menno world, I'm always fascinated by your views and input here.

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 #12     Celsus 


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Posted 12 January 2008 - 11:07 AM
Ruby,
Other than you, most ex Mennonite/Amish folks seem to have problems connecting their computers to the internet. It seems to be a compatibility issue between "Amish Labs" built computers and the generally accepted standards of W3C. See this for more details. Amish Labs FAQS

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 #13     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

9,215 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 12 January 2008 - 04:05 PM
Bruce, someone is making fun of us. We're not that stupid.
 There are two groups of horse and buggy Mennonites in the community where I lived most of my life. The other group (not my group) uses computers and the internet for business. They have telephones but no powerlines. They generate their power with generators. They shut it all down at the end of the business day, I was told by one service man. A local high school teacher told me they are sending some of their young people to high school for training to use computers. These people are very big in small business and manufacturing. They continue using horse and buggy transportation and farm with horses. My former group farms with tractors and has powerlines but does not allow computers.
 I know very little about the Amish beyond general information.

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 #14     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 12 January 2008 - 04:08 PM

Medjool, on Jan 12 2008, 09:44 AM, said:

I was a converted Mennonite and attended a moderate-liberal Menno church in Pennsylvania. I grew up Methodist and attended a Baptist-ish college, but was entranced by the Mennonites and joined the church for several years before I finally fully deconverted altogether. I'll put it all in my upcoming extimony, but I'll say now that I truly loved my church. It was special and perhaps unique. People were so genuine and I loved the focus on this world, rather than the next life focus I'd grown up with. When I moved across the country, however, the Menno church in my new city was more of the same old church politics and god-talk I'd always known as Christianity. So I stopped attending and came to my senses. But every so often, I honestly wonder if I might still consider myself a Christian (albeit very liberal) if I still lived in PA and could go back to that church....
Having had glimpses of the conservative Menno world, I'm always fascinated by your views and input here.
I look forward to your testimony. :)
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 #15     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

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Location:Where the sun don't shine (NE Ohio)
Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:47 PM
RubySera,
 I'm from northeast Ohio, just north of the Ohio Amish country. You have a good point: my dad's parents may actually have been Amish. I have to admit I never really understood the cutoff points on the More Plain Than Thou continuum that Mennos/Amish divide themselves up into.
 Some of the more conserative neighbors were called Whistler mennonites. I think we were Franconia conference maybe? Or General conference...wait, that's football, isn't it?
 The repressed emotional atmosphere of that denomination primed me for the overly emotional pentacostals. Two of my older brothers got sucked into that, and in my isolation and depression it seemed wonderful. I remember telling my mother I did not want to join the Mennonite church because it was "lukewarm" and God would spit them out of his mouth, and showing her the bible verse. I was so full of it.
 Maybe you can guess that I ended up pretty messed up in the head. For all I know the small gene pool helped precipitate the major depression that I have struggled with my whole life. I blamed myself, even as a kid, for the depression.
 My life went something like this. I feel bad---sin is bad---the reason I feel bad is because I'm a sinner---I'm going to hell---now I feel even worse---Jesus save me---I still feel bad---I'm bad because I should now feel better, my fault for not having enough faith, Jesus would make me happy if I was really saved, and according to John 3:16 blah blah blah so I am an even worse person because I didn't have faith when I prayed so I better start the whole cycle over again. And every time around I was deeper in the hole because of each previous failure. Begging hour upon hourI for just the tiniest flicker of light from the almighty all loving monster. I wasted so much of my life and went through so much pain. Maybe I hate religion.
 Back to the Menno thing...There are a lot of truly good salt of the earth people in the religion. I really used to like the pacifist stance of that church. But now that I work in a veterans hospital, my view has changed to some extent.
 Being a pacifist is fine. But if all Americans believed that way, we'd all be royal subjects still. Or worse yet, a part of the Third Reich. It seems wrong to believe one is living the True Way, when the only reason one has the freedom to do that is because others are willing to stand up to real oppression for us. And we tell them they're going to hell for not being pacifist like us?

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 #16     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

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Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:54 PM
Ooops, I forgot to tell you that my moniker "live and learn" is simply a reminder to not forget the lessons I've learned from my mistakes. :shrug: Should have been a little more creative, huh?

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 #17     BlueGiant 


BOOM! says the Supernova.

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 03:13 AM
Other than you, and now live and learn, I haven't really noticed other ex-Amish or ex-Mennonites around here (then again, it may not have come up...). As for myself, my family on my dad's side left about 5 generations ago in NE Indiana. Apparently caused quite a stir at the time. I know some of my family has had closer ties to the Mennonite church more recently, but to what extent, I'm not sure.
 Way I see it, I'm just continuing his work...
 As for why there aren't more here? Well, it seems to be an unusual thing in the US at least, and probably in the rest of the world, to break religious indoctrination, if you were at the point where you were ripping out a big part of your identity (or at least changing it). Now add to that that the Mennonite and Amish populations are small, and you get a very small number of people. I would imagine that computer skills are less common in those communities as well (though you have proven my initial assumption of their nonexistence wrong, Ruby), making it less common for them to turn to an online community for support/venting/whatever the hell we come here for.
 Uncommon, yes, but at the same time, I am glad to have your uncommonness here.

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 #18     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 07:12 PM
Blue Giant, as has been discussed earlier in this thread, I think the small numbers probably accounts for it. I wasn't aware that there are so few Amish and Mennonites compared to other denominations such as Baptists. In earlier posts you can see where a few of us were counting churches in the Yellow Pages. There's just a LOT of Mennonites in my own area but that seems not to be typical across North America.
I really like what you say about "ripping out identity." Wow! that feels like you know what you're talking about. I'm never sure how to separate that from my deconversion process. I'm sure my deconversion process would have been very much different had it not been for the huge part cultural identity played. I find myself identifying a lot with the cultural religion of exCatholics here. Some of our members here consider themselves exChristians but they still go to mass. It's like it's a part of life on the same level almost as brushing their teeth. You just don't not go.
This thread is doing what I had hoped--it's bringing people "out of the woodwork."
Live and learn, it sounds like you really went through the roller-coaster.

Quote

live and learn said:
I'm from northeast Ohio, just north of the Ohio Amish country. You have a good point: my dad's parents may actually have been Amish. I have to admit I never really understood the cutoff points on the More Plain Than Thou continuum that Mennos/Amish divide themselves up into.
I'm not so familiar with that culture there but it sounds like things I've read about--Frankonia Conference.

Quote

Or worse yet, a part of the Third Reich. It seems wrong to believe one is living the True Way, when the only reason one has the freedom to do that is because others are willing to stand up to real oppression for us. And we tell them they're going to hell for not being pacifist like us?
Yeah, when I was studying theology and church history at the Lutheran Seminary was maybe the first time that I was able to see it outside of the Mennonite mindset. Suddenly I was asking myself, "But these Anabaptists were a real headache! Was it really this important--this stand that they took? And the Mennonites in the 20th century--were they really so noble to be conscientious objectors?"
I DON'T KNOW.
Then I see videos of Martin Luther King's boycotts and Ghandi who peacefully overturned The System. I don't think we can make rules for all times and all places. I think we each need to do what needs to be done in our own time and place. I have such a hard time knowing how to conduct my own life that it hardly behooves me to pass judgment on others in other times and places, esp. if I cannot make a difference anyway.
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 #19     live and learn 


Doubter

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 14 January 2008 - 11:39 AM
Blue Giant,
 Your point about identity is so on the mark. I had no reference points outside of the church to build an identity from. I think that for me, my family was simply a part of the church, since religion was the only thing that was "worthwhile". Unfortunately for me, that atmosphere totally quashed my emotional development, and I have paid the price for that my entire life. Once I finally understood that there is life beyond religion, I've been able to work on "growing a self".
I use this forum to reinforce this separation of religion and self. Every time I log on, it's like I'm once again poking my nose out from underneath the couch and seeing a whole other world out there. Thanks one and all.

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 #20     GraphicsGuy 


Somewhere between here and there

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 That said, I'm still pretty old-school, courteous, and way-too-nice-and-easy-going...scratch that, I've learned that I'm not all that easy-going...I'm rather intense and a bit of a misanthrope. Having the blinders pulled off made me realize how many idiots are walking around out there.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Bippety Boppety Boo! *poof* Nope...

Posted 14 January 2008 - 11:51 AM

The-Doctor, on Jan 11 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

When I was a serious fundy I played with the idea of going Amish or something like that......
Funny you should say that. As I became more and more unglued I was getting to be convinced that a communal structure away from larger society was the only way to truly avoid temptation and live a life pleasing to God. I had plans drawn up for a communal village with fallout shelters and food storage containers in case of WWIII before the rapture.
I'm serious...stop laughing! :Hmm:
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Am I The Only Ex Mennonite Amish Person On Exchristian.net?
Started by  R. S. Martin , Jan 11 2008 01:32 PM
 

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 #21     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

51 posts
Location:Where the sun don't shine (NE Ohio)
Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:20 PM

RubySera, on Jan 13 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

I wasn't aware that there are so few Amish and Mennonites compared to other denominations such as Baptists... There's just a LOT of Mennonites in my own area but that seems not to be typical across North America.
 Mennonites/Amish cluster together, and it's interesting/horrifying how the isolation of the sect skews our perceptions. Although they often are 90% or more of a community, they represent only a very tiny fraction. If you live near Lancaster, Pa., Goshen, Ind., Harrisonburg, Va., Kalona, Iowa, northeast Ohio, or Kitchener, Ontario (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), you can expect Mennonites/Amish to be the norm.
One of my father's brothers moved his family from Pa. to Mississipi, then later on to Brazil, where new clusters were being formed. I guess the countryside of Pa. was just too much Sodom and Gamorrah for them.
Ironically, one of my cousins on my mother's side moved to Australia. Turns out she's a lesbian and felt that she had to go to the other side of the world, literally, to be free to be who she is. Really sad, isn't it?
Another cousin was not allowed to eat at the table with the rest of us. Relegated to the kitchen. And my crazy as a loon aunt sat on the bottom step with the door closed to eat her meal. In retrospect, she may have been schizophrenic, or was it the kick in the head by the horse, or the man she loved that she was forbidden to see when she was younger? Man, it's sad to think about all that.
I wonder how nature vs. nurture fits in to a small sect that only reproduces from the same gene pool. I'd really be interested in finding out more on that. Any ideas?
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 #22     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

51 posts
Location:Where the sun don't shine (NE Ohio)
Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 14 January 2008 - 01:00 PM

graphicsguy, on Jan 14 2008, 10:51 AM, said:


The-Doctor, on Jan 11 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

When I was a serious fundy I played with the idea of going Amish or something like that......
Funny you should say that. As I became more and more unglued I was getting to be convinced that a communal structure away from larger society was the only way to truly avoid temptation and live a life pleasing to God. I had plans drawn up for a communal village with fallout shelters and food storage containers in case of WWIII before the rapture.
I'm serious...stop laughing! :Hmm:

Trust me, not laughing here. I've got a friend who thinks it would be really cool to join the Amish. Not sure if the appeal is so much to join the Amish as such. I suspect it's more to leave behind the difficulty of making decisions for oneself.
-What hairstyle would look best on me? Bun and bonnet, of course. Using hairpins vs. bobby pins, that's your choice.
-What do I want to be when I grow up? Housewife and mother, of course. Your husband will make the choice of how many children for both of you, and it will be to spit out as many as possible. Good farmhands are hard to find, so whatever it takes to fill the farm chore roster. An added benefit is that you will never have to pass high school algebra, since you're going to drop out in 8th grade. And no student loans to pay, either!
-What color do I want my new car? Black on black, with extra black and/or dark grey, your choice. Course, you're going to hell for owning a car anyway, at least in this section of Goshen.
-Where should we spend vacation? What, leave the twice daily chores? Not possible. If the head of the household grants you permission, you might be able to visit your sister's family to help with the new baby. Six kids under the age of ten, huh? God sure is blessing her. Praise his name. Go ask the worldly neighbor if she will drive you there.
(Just don't ask why it's a sin to own a car but not to freeload a ride in one. God's ways are far above ours, and I'm sure he has his reasons.)


By the way, graphicsguy, do you live in Goshen or Elkhart? Gotta be one or the other.
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 #23     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

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Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:01 PM

live and learn, on Jan 14 2008, 11:20 AM, said:


RubySera, on Jan 13 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

I wasn't aware that there are so few Amish and Mennonites compared to other denominations such as Baptists... There's just a LOT of Mennonites in my own area but that seems not to be typical across North America.
 Mennonites/Amish cluster together, and it's interesting/horrifying how the isolation of the sect skews our perceptions. Although they often are 90% or more of a community, they represent only a very tiny fraction. If you live near Lancaster, Pa., Goshen, Ind., Harrisonburg, Va., Kalona, Iowa, northeast Ohio, or Kitchener, Ontario (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), you can expect Mennonites/Amish to be the norm.

You're right on that. I'm in the Waterloo part of Kitchener-Waterloo. I spent most of my life in the horse and buggy community in the rural area just north of town. I would say it's an approximately 200-300 square miles of solid Mennonite country--99.999% Mennonites on the farms. In the towns the concentration is lower. That's only one of the horse and buggy settlements in Ontario. Right next to the horse and buggy Mennonite settlement is a very large Amish settlement that is almost as old.
I understand about your cousin feeling a need to go to the other side of the world. At one point I was contemplating the possibility of disappearing. I concluded that it would be impossible. I could never hide my horse and buggy Mennonite identity. Sooner or later it would come out. And from there it would be only a matter of time until I was traced to the "missing person" from the Waterloo County Mennonite community. Of course, it never occurred to me to leave this continent.
My father's cousin also went to Australia. I don't know why. I know of a few people who said they had to physically leave the community to learn who they were in their own right before healing could take place. Not all of these people left Christianity; just the Plain People. Doing mission work on another continent, moving to another state, that sort of thing where they got totally away from anyone who knew and valued them based on their bloodlines and family history/religion was what they needed. For me, living in the city seems to be what I need.
I'm in a part of the city where I seldom see Plain People--about once a year on average. Flashbacks are triggered a lot by other things but that would happen anywhere.

Quote

I wonder how nature vs. nurture fits in to a small sect that only reproduces from the same gene pool. I'd really be interested in finding out more on that. Any ideas?
I've been part of discussions on this and I find it traumatic--too unsettling. I am who I am. Maybe I should be someone else, maybe I should never have been born. I struggle with depression. Tell a person with chronic depression who has wished most of their life to be dead that they should never have been born. These are my people. They have hurt me like none other can. Yet I love them. They are part of me. I'm raging mad at them. I want sympathy and support on one hand so I can rage against how they hurt me. On the other hand, they have major problems brought on by themselves by their religion, one of which is a small gene pool. Some say they're going to die out in a few generations because of it. I say that's bogus.
These people have survived small gene pools for thousands of years. They may be up against a crisis but they'll survive again. If worse comes to worse, they'll team up with like-minded communities in other parts of the continent with whom they haven't bred in a hundred or more years. Some small obscure sects will die out--they know it--it is "God's will." It's happening today. These people are farmers and they understand gene pools. What works with animals works with people. They know that. What they are unsure about is whether it's right. Well, actually, they are sure that it's not.
In the meantime they will put up with severe birth defects and heriditary illnesses because they think it's God's will. This is only one of the serious problems they face that I feel needs to be dealt with. I feel totally helpless to do anything about any of the problems that I see. My life's mission remains to strike a death blow at the foundation of fundamentalist Christianity. But at the moment I haven't a clue how to do that.
Those are my ideas on that.
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 #24     The-Captain 


Humanist

Regular Member

3,978 posts
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Interests:History,cycling,public parks,my infinite reading list,classical music, mysteries of the universe etc
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :In my experience, no

Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:11 PM

live and learn, on Jan 14 2008, 11:00 AM, said:


graphicsguy, on Jan 14 2008, 10:51 AM, said:


The-Doctor, on Jan 11 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

When I was a serious fundy I played with the idea of going Amish or something like that......
Funny you should say that. As I became more and more unglued I was getting to be convinced that a communal structure away from larger society was the only way to truly avoid temptation and live a life pleasing to God. I had plans drawn up for a communal village with fallout shelters and food storage containers in case of WWIII before the rapture.
I'm serious...stop laughing! :Hmm:

Trust me, not laughing here. I've got a friend who thinks it would be really cool to join the Amish. Not sure if the appeal is so much to join the Amish as such. I suspect it's more to leave behind the difficulty of making decisions for oneself.
-What hairstyle would look best on me? Bun and bonnet, of course. Using hairpins vs. bobby pins, that's your choice.
-What do I want to be when I grow up? Housewife and mother, of course. Your husband will make the choice of how many children for both of you, and it will be to spit out as many as possible. Good farmhands are hard to find, so whatever it takes to fill the farm chore roster. An added benefit is that you will never have to pass high school algebra, since you're going to drop out in 8th grade. And no student loans to pay, either!
-What color do I want my new car? Black on black, with extra black and/or dark grey, your choice. Course, you're going to hell for owning a car anyway, at least in this section of Goshen.
-Where should we spend vacation? What, leave the twice daily chores? Not possible. If the head of the household grants you permission, you might be able to visit your sister's family to help with the new baby. Six kids under the age of ten, huh? God sure is blessing her. Praise his name. Go ask the worldly neighbor if she will drive you there.
(Just don't ask why it's a sin to own a car but not to freeload a ride in one. God's ways are far above ours, and I'm sure he has his reasons.)


By the way, graphicsguy, do you live in Goshen or Elkhart? Gotta be one or the other.

:fun:
Further proof that we were certified nutters :P
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 #25     GraphicsGuy 


Somewhere between here and there

☆ Silver Patron ☆

2,463 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Alberta, Canada
Interests:I like to laugh, tell corny jokes, be sarcastic, tell women how cute they are, listen to very hard music, drive fast, and a host of other things.
 That said, I'm still pretty old-school, courteous, and way-too-nice-and-easy-going...scratch that, I've learned that I'm not all that easy-going...I'm rather intense and a bit of a misanthrope. Having the blinders pulled off made me realize how many idiots are walking around out there.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Bippety Boppety Boo! *poof* Nope...

Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:24 PM

live and learn, on Jan 14 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

By the way, graphicsguy, do you live in Goshen or Elkhart? Gotta be one or the other.
What? No, neither. I live in Canada in the province of Alberta!
We have Hutterites here...another Amish-like sect that I really have no clue about...
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 #26     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

51 posts
Location:Where the sun don't shine (NE Ohio)
Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:49 PM

graphicsguy, on Jan 14 2008, 01:24 PM, said:


live and learn, on Jan 14 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

By the way, graphicsguy, do you live in Goshen or Elkhart? Gotta be one or the other.
What? No, neither. I live in Canada in the province of Alberta!
We have Hutterites here...another Amish-like sect that I really have no clue about...


Sorry, I guess it was Blue Giant I should have asked the Goshen/Elkhart question. For the most part, it is easy to assume that Yoder or Zook or Stoltzfus or Schwartendruber are Mennonites or Amish, and that certain locations, like the above in Indiana, are chock full of them. I guess it may not be that way all over, and I know I am generalizing, but the closeknit isolated people tend to meet those stereotypes.
I'm only vaguely familiar with Hutterites, and know very little about Canadian Mennonite communities. I am interested in the differences.
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 #27     Grandpa Harley 


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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not when I last looked.

Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:53 PM
By way of a question... are these 'sects' simply sects or are they tied to some idea of ethnic purity? Are there black Mennonites, Huttierites etc?

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 #28     .god 


Thinker

Regular Member

145 posts
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :me

Posted 14 January 2008 - 03:06 PM

live and learn, on Jan 14 2008, 11:20 AM, said:


RubySera, on Jan 13 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

I wasn't aware that there are so few Amish and Mennonites compared to other denominations such as Baptists... There's just a LOT of Mennonites in my own area but that seems not to be typical across North America.
 Mennonites/Amish cluster together, and it's interesting/horrifying how the isolation of the sect skews our perceptions. Although they often are 90% or more of a community, they represent only a very tiny fraction. If you live near Lancaster, Pa., Goshen, Ind., Harrisonburg, Va., Kalona, Iowa, northeast Ohio, or Kitchener, Ontario (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), you can expect Mennonites/Amish to be the norm.

Actually, I never saw an Amish or Mennonite in all my 30+ years until I visited Niagra Falls recently. To me they are more rare than the Tibetan monks dressed in orange robes who I see much more often. Are there any communities here in the West Coast? I think I had heard of maybe one in an obscure part of California and another in Oregon. We aren't big on farming here where most of the population lives ( that would be in our inland valleys), most of our modern cities grew up around fishing villages and trade ports.
I didn't even know who the Amish were until I saw the Harrison Ford film a few years back =)
I wonder if there are better numbers, but from Wikipedia I gleamed the following:
Amish est population in the US in 2000 - 198,000
Another page with numbers: http://www.kindredtr...n-Refuge-2.html
Old-Order Mennonite: 224,000 & non-Old-Order 17,000
Compare that to the estimated total US population in 2006 of 3 million and Amish/Mennonite societies may consist of about 15% of the total population, assuming my numbers are correct.
Here's another breakdown that's way over my head personally, as I don't know anything about the many sects of religion:http://en.wikipedia....ous_affiliation
Over where I live, seeing Amish or Mennonite persons may be about as unusual as seeing a purple elephant =)
It is vastly more common for us to come across Mormon families.
Actually, Ruby, I wonder if you think of the Mormon communities, as they tend to be very insular as well. If you're curious, just check out their ex-mormon stories over at: http://www.exmormon....xmobb_biography
http://www.exmormon.org/
They make for some interesting reading, Their societies and communities seem pretty fucked up sometimes and very constraining and suffocating, especially for women - the vast number who seem to suffer from depression.

Quote

These people have survived small gene pools for thousands of years. They may be up against a crisis but they'll survive again. If worse comes to worse, they'll team up with like-minded communities in other parts of the continent with whom they haven't bred in a hundred or more years. Some small obscure sects will die out--they know it--it is "God's will." It's happening today. These people are farmers and they understand gene pools. What works with animals works with people. They know that. What they are unsure about is whether it's right. Well, actually, they are sure that it's not.
here's an interesting story regarding that concerning the Amish:http://www.nytimes.c...ne/06amish.html
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 #29     GraphicsGuy 


Somewhere between here and there

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 That said, I'm still pretty old-school, courteous, and way-too-nice-and-easy-going...scratch that, I've learned that I'm not all that easy-going...I'm rather intense and a bit of a misanthrope. Having the blinders pulled off made me realize how many idiots are walking around out there.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Bippety Boppety Boo! *poof* Nope...

Posted 14 January 2008 - 05:09 PM

Grandpa Harley, on Jan 14 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

By way of a question... are these 'sects' simply sects or are they tied to some idea of ethnic purity? Are there black Mennonites, Huttierites etc?
I know there are rumors of the Hutterites keeping things "within the family" and I have also heard rumors of them paying outsiders to...well...breed their women...
I have no clue if there is any truth to the rumors or not though. May just be the locals poking fun at their anti-social ways.
However, there may be some possibility to the "ethnic purity" idea. I know some groups have very strong Ukranian or Polish backgrounds and you definitely never see any racial...coloring...amongst them beyond pasty white.
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 #30     live and learn 


Doubter

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:06 PM

Grandpa Harley, on Jan 14 2008, 01:53 PM, said:

By way of a question... are these 'sects' simply sects or are they tied to some idea of ethnic purity? Are there black Mennonites, Huttierites etc?
When I was very young my parents went to a Mennonite church in Youngstown, OH, and almost everyone there was black. They had the first black Mennonite preacher. Those are the only black Mennonites I remember hearing about.
It's something you are born into. I imagine some of the more liberal churches gain members now and then, but I am pretty damn sure in most circles everyone is related to everyone else if you go back very far. I hate to admit it, but my parents were related some steps back. (Yeah, I know, that explains it all! ) :Doh:
I think the whole genetic issue is fascinating. Seems to me the culture is a clear example of evolution at work. And I agree that groups from Canada and different parts of the US may have to merge eventually to alleviate the gene pool shrinking, but I think they will put it off as long as possible.
I can imagine this scenario: "The Lord has shown me that it is better to have horribly handicapped children rather than to allow any intermingling with those shameless hussies with their ankles showing and the men who wear those evil buttons! Better to be holy than healthy, sayeth the Lord. Interbreeding was good enough for Adam and Eve's children, right?"

RubySera, I have to really hand it to you. I had such a hard time freeing myself from all that, yet I was a part of a far more "worldly" segment than you were. I cannot image the culture shock. I had been so insulated that I went off the deep end when I left home to go to college (Eastern Mennonite in Virginia). I cannot even imagine leaving the way you were able to. You show such incredible strength.
I really hope you are not offended by my sarcastic remarks about the religion/culture/genetic family. It still just makes me crazy to think that innocent little children are brought up in such a stringent Spartan emotionally repressed world.
Religion is like the Japanese art of bonsai. A seedling tree is coerced to grow against what nature intended, and any shoots that are not in the schematics are snipped off, for the good of the plant, of course. So you end up with a warped, twisted, emotionally dwarfed characture of what nature means a child to be. The conservative churches are just more vigorous in the trimming. Of course, they follow a carpenter, so it's appropriate that they chop wood. Yeah, I'm still bitter, even after all these years. The more I write the more I realize that so much of the emotional difficulties I've had in life stem directly from the stifling of personality development that devastates the process of individuation. Add to that the genetic predisposition (amplified by religios isolation) to depression, and I begin to understand why my early life was so f'ed up.
Sorry to ramble on, I just had to get that out once I started.
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 #31     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 02:29 PM
Pippa,
I dug up this old thread.
I'm bringing your post over from Ex-Pastor's thread 2 Years Of Freedom And Counting! Don't want to take that thread off-track too far.

pippa_wonders, on Mar 22 2008, 09:42 PM, said:


RubySera, on Mar 21 2008, 07:19 AM, said:

Ex-Pastor, I see you've been here for two years but haven't posted much. So I looked at your profile. Found your deconversion story....Another MENNONITE????????
Welcome!
I'd pretty much come to the conclusion that I'm the only Mennonite on here. Swiss Mennonite here. You Russian Mennonite?
Ruby i have some experience with the Mennonites, too, though i wasnt born into it. a group was started in my area, like an outreach, and i was involved with it for a few years. i wore amish attire for about 6 years. i joined because i believed that women were meant to wear headcoverings, and the Mennonites seemed to be the only ones who did, apart from the Exclusive Brethren. i strongly believed in it, and in avoiding worldly things, like TV. i felt that if i was going to follow the bible, i wanted to follow it properly, and it made sense to not conform to worldly fashions. if i was still a christian i would still agree with that, i mean, if i still believed the bible. why i left was because i couldnt handle the idea that salvation was conditional on doing the right thing. it reminded me of the roman catholic idea, that you could die in sin and go to hell. they believed that if you remarried after divorce you were living in adultery and the only thing to do was break up the marriage even if the new couple had had children together. otherwise you would go to hell.
later, i found it too hard to continue wearing a headcovering, even though i still believed in it, because in my area it was unheard of, and it was quite a difficult thing to deal with. i was called up by another member and told that i was risking hell by not doing what i believed in, ie. wearing the covering.
i came to think it was possible to be amish but not spiritual. but there were a lot of things about the amish that i really liked, and i always felt 'right' about wearing the cape dress and headcovering.

Pippa, I'm curious what kind of plain Mennonites are in Australia?
I disagree with your friend that you have to dress like the Amish because you believe in it. You probably also believe in dressing the way you do. It is not possible for me to dress in all the ways I believe are okay for people to dress.
I still wear the traditional cape dress because it's all I have ever been used to wearing and it's part of my identity. I feel I have had to change enough things; I don't have to force myself to change into contemporary garb, too. I intentionally chose a "worldly" church so that I would not have to meet a dress code, and now I don't go to church at all. It does not seem right that I have to change my clothes to meet anyone's ideas.
I did eventually stop wearing the head-covering because I felt I was misrepresenting my people. That was such a difficult step I cannot imagine myself ever making other changes in the near future.
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 #32     FriedVillageGuts 


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Posted 23 March 2008 - 11:00 PM

Grandpa Harley, on Jan 14 2008, 12:53 PM, said:

By way of a question... are these 'sects' simply sects or are they tied to some idea of ethnic purity? Are there black Mennonites, Huttierites etc?
Alright, since we're playing Mennonite games I might as well throw in a little statistic about where all the Mennonites are:
Africa - 529,703
Asia & Pacific - 241,420
C/C & South America - 155,531
Europe - 52,222
North America - 499,664
from http://www.mwc-cmm.org/
So yes, very definitely there are black Mennonites and are now the majority of Mennonites worldwide. They have taken the Mennonite identity but added a charismatic and evangelical element to it which has accounted for its rapid rise in Africa (added 125,000 in 6 years). In the church that I used to pastor it is now apx 1/3 African. Mind you that is not typical in North America where it is mostly a homogenous grouping. There are also a number of Hispanic churches, but they also tend not to mix.
Anyway, some numbers to chew on.
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 #33     ogilvy 


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Posted 24 March 2008 - 05:59 AM
[quote name=
Pippa, I'm curious what kind of plain Mennonites are in Australia?
I disagree with your friend that you have to dress like the Amish because you believe in it. You probably also believe in dressing the way you do. It is not possible for me to dress in all the ways I believe are okay for people to dress.
I still wear the traditional cape dress because it's all I have ever been used to wearing and it's part of my identity. I feel I have had to change enough things; I don't have to force myself to change into contemporary garb, too. I intentionally chose a "worldly" church so that I would not have to meet a dress code, and now I don't go to church at all. It does not seem right that I have to change my clothes to meet anyone's ideas.
I did eventually stop wearing the head-covering because I felt I was misrepresenting my people. That was such a difficult step I cannot imagine myself ever making other changes in the near future.
[/quote]

Ruby, they started out connected with an amish mennonite church in Gworgia. people came out from that church and stayed a while to help set it up. it was never big, because the interested people were too far apart, all over australia. some of us did have weekly meetings, and we kept in touch with the ones across australia. it was a very rare thing here. people wondered what i was! it was exciting having the real mennonites over from the usa. i can understand you thinking there was no need to give up wearing the cape dress. i thought the cape dress was a logical idea for those trying not to conform to fashion. we can wear whatever we want. it was a nice clean cut image. i felt we had dignity. actually i think the muslem women have dignity, and that wearing a headcovering is a natural type thing. but i dont know why i think so now, because i dont believe in the bible any more. guess just because i'm in transition. actually even before i was a christian i had some kind of repulsion towards a lot of the crappy things on TV, and i wished when i was a child that we didnt have TV. guess i always liked old fashioned things, expecially old books.
i think there would still be some mennonite converts around, but i've lost contact now. i'd be ashamed to tell them i've given it all up.

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 #34     live and learn 


Doubter

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 09:50 AM
Hi. I was raised in a moderately liberal Mennonite home. Of course, there is such a gradient of conservatism with Amish/Mennonites that liberal is kind of hard to define. Skirts, long hair, no jewelry, keep to your own kind, etc., for us, to give you an idea.
 I'm glad you resurrected this thread.
 I found this ex-conservative Mennonite's bog on the Huffington Post website. He's a free-lance writer in LA now, and has interesting perspective on the religion.
Steven Denlinger
 I'm really surprised that you still wear the cape dresses. I think of that as a way of indicating that there is something instrisically wrong with having breasts. I can understand, though, how hard it could be to change, and if it works for you guys, more power to you.
 I'm curious. Are there other parts of the traditions you still use?

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 #35     babysealclubber 


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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:10 AM
Dear live and learn,
 I'm new to this website, I just wanted to say that I was raised as a mennonite brethren in California. I never had the restrictions that you had, although they were strongly suggested, but my parents had some of them when they were younger. I do not know any other mennonites who have rejected their faith outright, although I have met a few who were disillusioned.
 By the way, the link is broken in your last comment.
 -Brad

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 #36     babysealclubber 


Strong Minded

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:25 AM
Never mind, here is a proper link.
http://www.huffingto...teven-denlinger
-Brad

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 #37     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

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Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:47 AM

live and learn, on Mar 24 2008, 08:50 AM, said:

Hi. I was raised in a moderately liberal Mennonite home. Of course, there is such a gradient of conservatism with Amish/Mennonites that liberal is kind of hard to define. Skirts, long hair, no jewelry, keep to your own kind, etc., for us, to give you an idea.
I'm glad you resurrected this thread.
I found this ex-conservative Mennonite's bog on the Huffington Post website. He's a free-lance writer in LA now, and has interesting perspective on the religion.
Steven Denlinger
I'm really surprised that you still wear the cape dresses. I think of that as a way of indicating that there is something instrisically wrong with having breasts. I can understand, though, how hard it could be to change, and if it works for you guys, more power to you.
I'm curious. Are there other parts of the traditions you still use?
That argument works only if you accept the argument that the cape is required for modesty. I've done some research on the development of the cape and that argument is a very weak one, in my opinion. I've seen some very old-fashioned capes and they did not serve well to cover breasts. According to folk-tale, I understand the cape started out as a kerchief worn over the shoulders, with the tips tucked into the belt--tips of a kerchief don't cover much. I would not be surprised if the wearing of a cape is related to wearing a shawl for warmth, possibly the peasant version of shawl.
The Mennonite and Amish of today are mainly of German peasant stock, I think. Maybe someday I can research this in more depth. Peasant women had to work, which would have made the wearing of a shawl very inconvenient, not to mention that they might not have had the luxury of owning a shawl. Yet their huts must have been cold in winter. Throwing a kerchief across the shoulders might have helped retain body temperatures. Tucking it into the belt would have secured it for work around cooking fires.
When they crossed the ocean, and after a few generations settled into relative prosperity in the new world, the cape may have been retained more as an identity or cultural marker than necessity. Then came the nineteenth century when modernism was taking over North America with a vengeance, and churches were splitting left and right into conservative and liberal elements. There are records for the mainline Swiss Mennonite church that by about 1890, traditional identity markers were hardened into test of membership church rules based on scriptural authority.
I saw a paper by a Mennonite historian on the women's head-covering where this was the case for the Ontario mainline Mennonites. I talked with a man who told me his mother or grandmother (I forget the details) was a teenaged girl about 1900 or 1910 and wanted to get higher education. The church suddenly decided to ban higher education and she was not allowed to get it. This would be in keeping with the tightening of church rules around the turn of the 20th century. My guess is that the "cape as modesty" argument was developed around the same time.
Regardless of what others think, that is not why I wear it. I wear it because it is part of my identity. I've got enough changes to make; can't be forced to change dress, too. Outward appearance is just that--outward appearance. What matters to me is what's inside.
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 #38     live and learn 


Doubter

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 05:33 PM

RubySera, on Apr 3 2008, 09:47 AM, said:

Regardless of what others think, that is not why I wear it. I wear it because it is part of my identity. I've got enough changes to make; can't be forced to change dress, too. Outward appearance is just that--outward appearance. What matters to me is what's inside.

Rubysera,
Thanks for the interesting background on the cape dress. Once again I "Live and Learn"!
For myself, I'd be quite happy never to wear a dress again. I just hate those frickin' pantyhose! But then I deconverted at a younger age and from a less strict Mennonite segment, so the change was not so drastic for me. You have definitely earned the right to dress any way that you feel comfortable without me questioning. I guess I was just so surprised because the whole dress thing was one of the most irritating aspect of the religion.
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 #39     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

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Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 05 April 2008 - 05:42 PM

babysealclubber, on Apr 3 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

Dear live and learn,
I'm new to this website, I just wanted to say that I was raised as a mennonite brethren in California. I never had the restrictions that you had, although they were strongly suggested, but my parents had some of them when they were younger. I do not know any other mennonites who have rejected their faith outright, although I have met a few who were disillusioned.
By the way, the link is broken in your last comment.
-Brad
Thanks for fixing the link, BSC. I've been in and out on the forums here for a while now, doing much more reading than writing. I think you'll really find it fascinating.
I never think of California as home to Mennonites. Did you leave that church before you left religion in general, or exit directly from Mennonite-ism?
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 #40     babysealclubber 


Strong Minded

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 02:27 AM
[/quote]
Thanks for fixing the link, BSC. I've been in and out on the forums here for a while now, doing much more reading than writing. I think you'll really find it fascinating.
I never think of California as home to Mennonites. Did you leave that church before you left religion in general, or exit directly from Mennonite-ism?
[/quote]

No problem.
I may have given the wrong impression by stating that I was raised a Mennonite. I am still a member of the church I grew up in. I am struggling with (among other things) how I will break the news of my fairly recent "de-conversion" to my family and friends, or even if I should. I must say that this site has been a big support to me, and reading some of the stories on this thread has given me perspective on just how easy I have it. I doubt that I would feel forced to leave the continent at the very least! Although I would be surprised if I would be able to associate with other members in the community.
There are many Mennonites living in the Central Valley of California, between Sacramento and Bakersfield. I do not know of any horse and buggy types here. The strictest forbid radios, computers, and other electronic wizardry, and have traditional dress codes. The most liberal are barely distinguishable from any other anabaptist church. Obviously, I have internet access and a computer, so our church leans towards the liberal end. The communities are fairly tight-knit, and tend to cluster together in small towns. A good percentage of them are farmers, as my family is.
Thanks again.

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Am I The Only Ex Mennonite Amish Person On Exchristian.net?
Started by  R. S. Martin , Jan 11 2008 01:32 PM
 

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 #41     babysealclubber 


Strong Minded

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 02:51 AM
Oh, I want to add that, similar to what others have stated, I had seriously considered moving to a stricter church north of where I am. That was when I was first questioning how I was raised. The rest was all downhill.

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 #42    Clodomir

 
Guests

Posted 06 April 2008 - 05:13 AM
I've only lived on the west coast... no Amish there.

Interesting census maps of churches by county...
http://www.valpo.edu...0/religion.html

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 #43     ogilvy 


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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :dunno

Posted 06 April 2008 - 07:10 AM

The-Doctor, on Jan 12 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

When I was a serious fundy I played with the idea of going Amish or something like that...... Scary that I wouldve wished that oppression on myself, but I kinda bought into the whole "being apart from the world" that started the Amish in the first place. But in my deluded state o' mind it seemed perfectly logical if I wanted to follow all the babbles good orders.
Dont know about ya'll but whenever I read the stories of xians doing terrible things to themselves and others in the "name o' god", I shudder b/c I can remember when I might have done much the same.
if the bible was God's word, then i think joining a group of 'plain people' would be the logical thing to do, because it's impossible to avoid worldly living whilst living in normal society. if there had been a group of plain people who didnt believe you could lose your salvation, i would have liked to join that, when i was serious about following the bible. being involved with the mennonites made me scared of hell, i.e. arminian doctrine, and i couldnt take it. what i'm saying is that if the bible really is true, then being a mennonite wouldnt be stupid. however, i came to think that being amish or mennonite didnt necessarily mean being spiritual. i felt that being spiritual involved being apart from the world, but being apart from the world didnt necessarily involve being spiritual. in fact, you wouldnt even have to be a christian to live an amish lifestyle.
apart from the biblical connotations, i think the amish way of life is perfectly logical if a person, for any reason, wished to avoid modern day society, as long as its a personal choice. its hard to live in this society without being involved with a lot of things one might find repugnant for some reason or other. i still like the concept of the amish mennonites, though not every aspect of it by any means.
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 #44     crazycanuck 


Doubter

Regular Member

55 posts
Location:Manitoba, Canada
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not now!

Posted 06 April 2008 - 08:11 AM
Hmmm...I can't believe anyone hasn't brought up the lyrics to THIS song yet...(it's older, released in '96 I believe)
http://www.elyrics.n...ise-lyrics.html
Now that I am an exchristian, the lines near the end about "I'm a million times as humble as thou art..." and "...on my knees day and night scoring points for the afterlife..." really strike me as funny/ironic. As a Christian I was offended by this song (slightly) after all, you don't make fun of others religions...! Now I find the little "barbs" in it amusing.
I don't remember when this came out if there was alot of controversy about it...somehow I can't picture Mennonites being offended like the Danish cartoon situation/Muslims and putting a death threat over Weird Al's head, LOL
Dh was raised in the Mennonite tradition (Mennonite-Bretheren, many in my inlaws church wear traditonal bonnet, cape etc but they never did), and is a bit bitter about it, remembers much legalism, nit picking, not being allowed to go to various activites because they were on Sunday. My mother in law is HORRIFIED that we both want to be cremated (but what about the rapture...?!?!?) so much so we both specified it in our will specifically so it was "black and white" and at least I could say to her that is what dh would want! She was forbidden to marry my now "step" father-in-law when she was 18 because he went to the wrong mennonite church. Whoa! We now live in an area in Canada, like RubySera does, with a very high concentration of mennonites, and still have immigrant families coming from Belieze, Paraguay, Mexico, etc which originated in Russia and Germany. Culturally, very interesting to me to see the dress, etc. But, it's interesting looking at this city as an "outsider" from Christianity now. For example, we are a "dry" town, bylaws forbid liquor stores, but only in the last few years have the restauraunts been allowed to serve alcohol (and it must be with a meal, no just going in and having a drink). When that was voted in with the liquor referendum, the uproar in the local paper was unbelievable, many bemoaned the fact we were becoming godless, etc! But, we all know that one can drive a few km away and go the "liquor store" and it's OK because it is outside the municipal boundary, LOL! As a christian, I would of thought this "strictness" was called for at least, but now it just looks like legalism and double speak. Funny what changing your paradigms does to the way you see things.

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 #45     R. S. Martin 


I do my own thinking

Senior Member

9,215 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to see the evidence

Posted 06 April 2008 - 08:54 AM
I love this conversation. At last some Mennonite issues are discussed, such as moving to a more strict community, to really keep the biblical command. There was a time when I thought going Amish would be more biblical because there really was no stricter Mennonite group to go to but the Amish in the Aylmer area were plainer than we were. No electricity, no buttons, no flowery dresses, etc. We didn't have electricity on our home farm but Dad had an engine to pump water. It was causing a lot of problems and I thought perhaps that was a sign from God that we shouldn't have an engine and should use other means to pump our water for the animals. Also, the Amish believed in having their girls wearing a head-covering and our Mennonite group did not. I seriously questioned that our church correstly interpreted the Corinthian passage about the head-covering being only for married women and not for single women and girls; it made no sense to me to read it that way.
When I talked to my parents about going Amish and about the problems with the engine, Mom said my ideas about the Amish just came from reading the stories in the Amish magazine we were getting. About the engine she said things just went wrong sometimes. Her tone of voice told me she wanted no trouble from me. So I said no more on the topic. But I did not understand why things going wrong could be signs from God at certain times but not other times. Why was it a sign from God only when it was convenient or made you look like a saint, but not when it was inconvenient or made you look stupid? Dad always said we had to stand up for our beliefs regardless of what people said. I was about 14-16 at the time and knew what was good for me; I did not ask those questions. Nor did I say another word about going Amish.

pippa_wonders, on Apr 6 2008, 06:10 AM, said:

i came to think that being amish or mennonite didnt necessarily mean being spiritual. i felt that being spiritual involved being apart from the world, but being apart from the world didnt necessarily involve being spiritual. in fact, you wouldnt even have to be a christian to live an amish lifestyle.
You're absolutely right. I've known a few scattered families that drove horse and buggy but were not affiliated with any church. I don't know if they believed in God or not. I assumed they did because I could not imagine otherwise but I realize now that this is not guaranteed; for their own self-preservation they would have kept their mouths sealed if they didn't. Besides, I myself have been an atheist of sorts all my life--I did my best to believe but never saw any evidence that made for true conviction.

Quote

apart from the biblical connotations, i think the amish way of life is perfectly logical if a person, for any reason, wished to avoid modern day society, as long as its a personal choice. its hard to live in this society without being involved with a lot of things one might find repugnant for some reason or other. i still like the concept of the amish mennonites, though not every aspect of it by any means.
Some New Age or other groups have tried doing this, and living in communes, basing it off the Plain lifestyle. I don't personally know any cases but I've heard that all such attempts last only half a dozen years or less because it's usually college students who are looking for a utopia and don't want to invest the hard work that goes along with it. However, I am aware of the very strong ethnocentrism (pride in own culture and disdain for outsiders) that the Plain People carry; they would make it sound at least as bad as it really is. Maybe these "New Agers" never intended it as a life-long endeavor; I have no way of knowing.
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Doubter

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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:38 PM

Clodomir, on Apr 6 2008, 05:13 AM, said:

http://www.valpo.edu...0/religion.html

That is a really interesting link, Clodomir. Thanks.
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 #47     live and learn 


Doubter

Regular Member

51 posts
Location:Where the sun don't shine (NE Ohio)
Interests:Reading anything<br />Cats<br />Words<br />Travel<br />Naps<br />Grampa Harley's mind<br />Fundy phrases/word inflections 
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Dark chocolate

Posted 06 April 2008 - 01:27 PM
"Party like it's 1699"! I about choked laughing! Ain't it the truth.
Yep, humility and modesty are the only things to be proud about. Irony, like sarcasm, are not concepts familiar to the Amish/Mennonites (A/M).
I bet most never heard of Wierd Al. It's SO much easier to not be offended and to turn the other cheek when your entire world is composed of people who dress, act, and think (or rather don't think) like you do. Unfortunately, that just makes it that much more painful when one does come into contact with the "worldly" world.

Yep, the More Correct the religion, the longer the list of things you're not allowed to do.
Funny what changing your paradigms does to the way you see things.
You hit the nail on the head with that. The horse and buggy people put blinders on their horses so they cannot be distracted by anything other than what they want them to see. Doesn't work quite as well for children, I guess, but it's about the same principle. What evil ways might my father have learned by moving beyond his 8th grade education?!?
I am still bitter, too. Maybe I'll get that worked out in time.

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 "Answer" Prayer: Arbitrary? or Divine?  · 4 hours ago
 Ubi Dubium You have jumped to the conclusion that a cause must be a "who" instead of a "what". That's a normal human bias, we often assume things are caused by conscious agents, until we investigate and find...

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This is a Full-Width Post Without SidebarsI Swear
 Mar,20,2016
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This is a Full-Width Post Without Sidebars How Do They Dare?
 Mar,20,2016
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This is a Full-Width Post Without SidebarsChristi and Athea
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The Godfather and the Judge
By Carl S ~ There are millions of hucksters selling products promising eternal life to "souls." Chr
Mar,13,2016 | View Post

This Site for Christian Education
By Carl S ~ Some explanations an individual will give for believing: "I feel God's presence in my h
Mar,13,2016 | View Post

Does God speak through scripture? Yes and no
By John Draper ~ All religions have scripture, the word of God funneled through specific men. Which
Mar,13,2016 | View Post


Evangelical Christianity’s Brand Is Used Up
By Valerie Tarico ~ The Evangelical “brand” has gone from being an asset to a liability, and it i
Mar,13,2016 | View Post
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Feb,28,2016 |  View post
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 Consequences of a Fundie
By Sara B ~ My father was a fundie speaking in tongues preacher. My mother was mentally ill. I experienced being beaten by a belt since the age of 2. Belts were normal to beat children with in the cu
Feb,28,2016 |  View post
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 Undecided
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Jan,17,2016 |  View post
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 HEAVEN, HELL AND HILLSON
By Tim Weston ~ The following is an excerpt from Tim Weston's book, Heaven, Hell and Hillsong. Chapter 4 – CHERYL’S STORYCheryl Fisk was born into the Revival Centres. Both her parents had been
Mar,06,2016 |  View post
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 15 Screwed Up Catholic I
By Valerie Tarico ~ I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty. ~John WatersThe Catholic hierarchy is obsessed with sex: who does it, when, how, with whom, and for what purpose.
Feb,28,2016 |  View post
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 Our Senior Year
Our Senior Year is a novel about high school, growing up in a small town, and how it's tough to escape that world. But it's also about dealing with religion in your life and how in a small-town, rura
Feb,21,2016 |  View post
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Opine
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 What Were You Doing?
By Carl S ~ For years, the big question was, "What were you doing on the day John F. Kennedy was assassinated?" Everybody who was asked that question remembered.Detail of The School of Athens by Raph
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 Was That Sarcasm?
By Carl S ~ Anyone familiar with the TV series "The Big Bang Theory" will recognize this question as coming from its character, Dr. Sheldon Cooper, the genius who has trouble relating with us "common
Mar,06,2016 |  View post
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 Jesus would have been ag
By John Draper ~ A gay Christian friend of mine likes to point out that Jesus never said a single word one way or the other about homosexuality—this by way of suggesting that Jesus would have been in
Feb,28,2016 |  View post
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 How did you Break the Sp
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Jan,24,2016 |  View post
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 My Battle with St. Augus
The memoirs of a former fundamentalist pastor who left religion (but not God) and battled Depression, Addiction, Unemployment, Hearing Voices, Divorce, Co-dependency, Dating and Adult Aspergers with
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 HELP!
By southern atheist ~ Where to begin?I am 37 years old grow up with an atheist father and mentally ill fundie mother. I have never really believed in a god. I had a spell not long after I married tha
Aug,09,2015 |  View post
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Dr. Valerie Tarico
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 Evangelical Christianity
By Valerie Tarico ~ The Evangelical “brand” has gone from being an asset to a liability, and it is helpful to understand the transition in precisely those terms."Back before 9/11 indelibly linked I
Mar,13,2016 |  View post
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 15 Screwed Up Catholic I
By Valerie Tarico ~ I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty. ~John WatersThe Catholic hierarchy is obsessed with sex: who does it, when, how, with whom, and for what purpose.
Feb,28,2016 |  View post
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 What if Your Therapist W
By Valerie Tarico ~ Don't want a therapist who thinks the solution to your depression is Jesus? Here’s some advice from clinical psychologist, Dr. Caleb Lack.More Americans than ever are leaving thei
Jan,24,2016 |  View post
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Dr. Marlene Winell
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 Recovering from Religion
The Recovering from Religion Conference is April 6-9 in Minneapolis, MN. Awareness about religious harm and recovery is growing, and this entire conference will be devoted to the subject. Come out to
Mar,20,2016 |  View post
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 Christianity and Childre
By Dr. Marlene Winell ~ Christianity as a whole takes a dim view of children.  This is not unusual for the Abrahamic religions but Christianity takes it further.   We can benefit from
Nov,15,2015 |  View post
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 Leaving your Religion? C
Leaving your Religion?  Come to a JOURNEY FREE RETREATReligious harm is real  ….  you can recover(it’s not the end of the world!!)January 15-18, 2016Berkeley, CaliforniaLed by Marlene
Nov,08,2015 |  View post
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Recent Forum Testimonials



Forum Testimonials
My Marriage Is Dying A Slow Death
Hello, all. Thank you for listening to my story.    I grew up in a family deeply entrenched in a cult-like sect of ultra-consertive Christianity. We're talking women don't wear pants and...
March 30, 2016

Why I Stopped Going To Fundamentalist Church
This isn't my extimony! It is by a blogger, Marie Claire. A story many will relate...
March 29, 2016

Thank You
     This time last year I was on this site almost every night after my husband went to sleep, lurking. Mostly I cried, because while everything written here started making so much...
March 28, 2016

Walking Away And Ruined Relationships
I made the decision to officially renounce my christian faith at about age 21, although it was a long time coming at that point. I was raised in a strictly christian home, dragged to church every...
March 25, 2016

Story Of An Ex-Pastor
Hey there everyone,   So I spent about an hour writing out my testimony if you will and something happened and erased it all, so I'm going to give a shorter version of...
March 25, 2016

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Online Reading List

•A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom by Andrew Dickson White (1896)
•An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish by Bertrand Russell (1943)
•Bible Teaching and Religious Practice by Mark Twain
•God is Imaginary
•Is there an Artificial God? by Douglas Adams (1998)
•Skeptics Annotated Bible
•The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (1795)
•Which Way? by Robert Ingersoll (1884).
•Why I Am Not A Christian by Bertrand Russell (1927)
•Why I Am Not a Christian by Keith M. Parsons (2000)
 

Videos
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 My Path To Atheism : An
Sent in by dealdoctor ~ For those who wish a convenient online way to hear excellent detailed arguments against Christianity, its doctrines and its "Bible God" here is a link to  Annie Besa
Jun,29,2015 |  View post
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 What religion has contri
The monthly series, "What religion has contributed to the world," has returned and I have just uploaded the latest episode. This video illustrates the harm caused by religion in March 2015. It is sho
Apr,03,2015 |  View post
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 Suppose that God really
It’s a question that nearly every nonbeliever faces at some point in his or her life: “But what if God exists, what would you say to Him?”Stephen Fry, a well-known British comedian, actor, and writer
Jan,31,2015 |  View post
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Week 4 Of Strike, No Change In Sight.
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24 March 2016
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23 March 2016
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The Doctrine Of Substitutionary Atonement
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19 March 2016
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Strike Day #7, Vote #2. Prediction: Strike Day #8 On The Way.
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To Thine Own Self, Be True
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Contrasting Traditional Christian Beliefs With My Sense Of Reality
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Week 4 Of Strike, No Change In Sight.
Posted by  Travi  in Fighting against the Cosmos, 24 March 2016 · 125 views

Half laying, half sitting here in the cargo bay of my vehicle - I am exhausted. Insomnia struck at an inopportune time last night. An hour of sleep for six hours of picket duty in the back of my SUV. Fatigue sets in and sleep threatens to overtake me. Still three and a half hours to go, and time is going no quicker than five minutes ago. While the bay flo...

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 2 Comments







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The Journey From Christianity To Atheism
Posted by  Brother Jeff  in Brother Jeff the Alaskan Atheist, 23 March 2016 · 109 views

I have tried a number of times over the years to explain to people who have never walked the path from Christian –> ex-Christian –> Atheist what that journey is like and what it means to me and to others like me. It is not an easy path to travel at all. The journey from devout Christian religious belief back to the real world is one filled with do...

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Why Do We Love Game Of Thrones?
Posted by  Deidre  in Simple Thoughts, 20 March 2016 · 184 views

http://www.clickypix...s-quotes-07.jpg 
 At the coaxing of friends and my fiancé, I’ve begun watching the hit series Game of Thrones. It’s intriguing, fascinating, complex and deliciously reckless. Essentially, the plots are all intertwined culminating around families who are all striving to be kings and qu...

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An Introduction.
Posted by  hockeyfan70  in Christianity Is A Trampoline., 19 March 2016 · 197 views

To see this blog out in the webernet, go to www.christianityisatrampoline.blogspot.com - --------
Welcome to my blog "Christianity Is A Trampoline." Before I tell you why I chose this name, let me briefly tell you about myself so that you can understand a little bit about who I am and why I chose to start this blog up.
 I am an ex-pastor. (Yo...

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Contrasting Traditional Christian Beliefs With My Sense Of Reality
Posted by  StephenW  in Stephen's Musings, 26 February 2016 · 308 views

Comparing Traditional Christianity with My Sense of Reality [reality defined as “what seems ‘real’ to me”.]  I have created a chart contrasting side by side many of beliefs of Traditional Christianity with what I consider to be more realistic. I could not get the chart to show nicely here, so, to see the chart go to the page on my website here:...

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The Bluegrass Skeptic On The Age Of Reason Podcast
Posted by  TheBluegrassSkeptic  in The Bluegrass Skeptic, 28 January 2016 · 516 views
 Age of Reason, Alan M. Gold and 8 more...

The Bluegrass Skeptic On The Age Of Reason Podcast  Going to be a fun night on political issues. The esteemed Alan M. Gold, funny man Joe Dixon, and my opinionated self will be having a discussion of the 2016 elections, issues surrounding it, and how we see the impact of the years to come with a new president from our current selection of terrible options. Catch it tonight! https://www.youtube.com/wa...

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Ignosticism The First
Posted by  BarbarousBill  in i want mead, 12 January 2016 · 589 views

What is Ignosticism? Well as it turns out that's a mildly ironic question.  So there's Atheism, which is non-belief and/or positive reinforcement of the proposition that there is no deity/ies.  Then there's Agnosticism, which is certainty that there is no evidence for or against deity/ies, with two common variants being a strong and weak Agnos...

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Belated Thoughts About 2015
Posted by  knightcore  in This and That, 06 January 2016 · 501 views

I finally figured out how blog posts work, so I guess I'll start it off with an introspective post about my past year. 2014 was really hopeless for me, I had to drop out of school completely and was pushing towards saving up so I could move out of my parents house. I'm not out to my parents, and I don't mean religiously, they know about that. I mean...

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Relaxation And Realizations
Posted by  seven77  in Introspective Shift, 29 December 2015 · 297 views

During my hiatus I've begun to regularly consume a certain herb of questionable legal status. I was sitting in the storage area underneath my residence, smoking a bowl in the dimly lit area with only my new puppy for company. I had some chill EDM tunes playing on my phone. It was a quiet night on the plains, a little chilly in the unheated underbelly of a...

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 1 Comments







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Sexy Sadie: The Embodiment Of Religious Betrayal
Posted by  BreathinHeathen  in Bloggin' Heathen, 29 December 2015 · 280 views

Recently, The Beatles were added to all major streaming websites (example: Spotify) which gives me the perfect excuse to write this. Coming in as track 22 on the famous White Album is the song Sexy Sadie. This number written by John Lennon is one we might relate to quite well. Before the making of the White Album, the band went on a trip to India to atten...

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Not Been Around Much...
Posted by  Ellinas  in Ellinas' Blog, 23 December 2015 · 263 views

...combination of factors. Other things have intruded, I've been ill with a chest infection (hardly used a computer or did anything else much for 2 weeks) and have since done some major computer surgery which has banished Windows from my laptop in favour of Linux Mint (not difficult but time consuming - though very happy with the results).
 Anyhow,...

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 2 Comments







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Of Guilt And Birth Certificates
Posted by  LadyNightingale  in Escape Route , 20 October 2015 · 414 views

So today I once again attempted to find where my mom hid my birth certificate and SSN card. She had mentioned that she had it all together for when we would go to get my passport. I know it has to be somewhere. So, I often go hunting for it when my mom is off somewhere. I often find stuff like drawings, crafts, school assignment, papers, and progress repo...

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 2 Comments







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Frustrated
Posted by  Avandris  in Little Blog of Doubt, 21 July 2015 · 679 views

I am going through a restless period that has lasted the better part of a few months now. There are so many things that I want to be doing with my time and yet more often than not I find myself staring idly at a computer screen, occupying my time with pointless videos or video games that feel like little more than busy work. Another day passes, I go to be...

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Mr Bradlaugh
Posted by  Castiel233  in Castiel233's Blog, 19 July 2015 · 534 views

Charles Bradlaugh was an English atheist of the 19th century. In fact he could perhaps be considered THE English atheist of his time. He stormed across the UK, a giant of the free thought movement. Clever, brave with a large heart and a mind as strong as steel, he caused despair and worry among the faithful.
 His knowledge of the Bible was deep and p...

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New Brain Needed
Posted by  GypsyMoon  in Gypsy Moon's Blog, 29 June 2015 · 589 views

Anyone ever had that feeling of walking on ice or on egg shells, even when there's no reason to be feeling like that?
 I've come to the conclusion that my brain is possibly wired to deal with crisis every second of every day.... 
 The majority of my life has been extremely stressful and not all that pleasant, the last two weeks I've had a rather...

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Fuck Homophobia
Posted by  GoldenWolf  in GoldenWolf's Blog, 27 June 2015 · 805 views

Fuck Homophobia  Dear Homophobes,
 I am fucking sick of this world and its attitude towards anyone who isn't heterosexual or cisgendered. You spew your hatred without the consideration of others around you. Every fucking year, there's reports on an LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) suicide. You know why? Because of bigots like you! Yes, you! You know who you...

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Post 19: A Happy Ending
Posted by  BreathinHeathen  in Dark Night of the Soul 2.0, 22 February 2015 · 1,008 views

I think I'm done.
 When I began this journey a little over two years ago, I never would have guessed that I would have ended up at this point. I riding high in the sky with no fear of crashing anytime soon. This spiritual journey was not just an exploration on what is objectively true about the world, but a great look into who I am. I was a Christian b...

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 5 Comments







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My Thoughts On Automation/ai And The Subsequent Loss Of Jobs
Posted by  JadedAtheist  in Yet another blog, 07 February 2015 · 938 views

Long post ahead, be ye forewarned.
 I watched an interesting video recently on the effect of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence has and will have on humanity. You can view the video here . Basically, the video argues that shit will hit the fan when robots take over human jobs because we'll put the vast majority of people out of work. Most jo...

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Not Doing Good
Posted by  rach  in Rachel Truth Seeker, 25 January 2015 · 880 views

Things are not going well at all and I am in a very depressed condition once again. In bed all day today and haven't stopped crying. The spiritual atmosphere at home is at a fervor and it is very detrimental to my fragile mental state. A-mum is preparing for the most important event of the year for her, which is a Christian religious conference, so she...

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Diary Of A Food Addict: Renewal
Posted by  TheBluegrassSkeptic  in The Bloat, 15 January 2015 · 1,271 views

Diary Of A Food Addict: Renewal  Can't believe it has been over a year ago since I posted on this blog last.
 SHAME ON ME!
 Well, no, not really. I've actually made a lot of progress over the last 13 months, and made some permanent life style changes that I stuck with, and don't miss at all. As I am sure most of you remember, and if you don't just check out the gallery, I used to look li...

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