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How the Internet is Destroying Mormonism
by slimboyfat a month ago 37 Replies latest a month ago   watchtower beliefs
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat a month ago

Interesting video, shame it wasn't about JWs.
http://youtu.be/-1BdbKJbZZY
What a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about JWs on the Internet?
 +2 / -1
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

What a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about JWs on the Internet?
At one time, Slimboy, I didn't think anything could really shock me about the JWs.
But, I was wrong.
I was shocked beyond belief when I discovered that it was JWs who were the founding members of the Society for the Advancement of Blood Management, an organization that sets the standard for blood management for everyone all over the world, not just the JWs.
I was shocked to find out that the Watchtower Society had won the President's Award for the Society for the Advancement of Blood Management the year it was established.
I was shocked to find out that Shannon Farmer and Axel Hofman, both JWs, were the bigwigs down in Australia pushing blood management for the whole country. That shocked me. It still does.
I was shocked to find out that the JWs were used for medical testing by the US Army.
I continue to be shocked whenever I turn up yet another JW who is involved in bloodless medicine.
I am no longer surprised...I am just in shock about it all.
 +7 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a month ago
That's really interesting OrphanCrow has someone written up the details of this situation somewhere?
 +2 / -0
Fencing
Fencing a month ago

What a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about JWs on the Internet?
1. That nothing of what the Russell-era Bible Students believed about 1914 is still taught today - and the revisionist history the Society teaches in regards to that, to pretend they've always been right
2. That Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in 607
3. That they sought and attained a UN membership while accusing other religions of cavorting with the Wild Beast
4. Russell's obsession with pyramids
5. All the child abuse lawsuits and coverups
 +8 / -0
millie210
millie210 a month ago

I was shocked to find out everything that has been presented here on this forum actually.
As a "well read" Witness (meaning I avidly consumed everything THEY wrote) I didnt know how much Rutherford had to do with alcohol during prohibition, or how the Governing Body stood around talking in the halls about how to handle the "1975" blunder.
I guess one recent shock was to find out that all the letters I wrote in 75 concerning persecution in Malawi were a waste of time since there wasnt even any persecution then.
 +2 / -0
jaydee
jaydee a month ago

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/how-two-jehovahs-witnesses-were-paid-millions-to-restrict-wa-blood-transfusions/story-fnhocxo3-1226921294173
 +3 / -0
the girl next door
the girl next door a month ago
Good thread, and nice opener from Orphan Crow. Would like to research those bullet points more. Any direction would be greatly appreciated OC.
 +3 / -0
Mephis
Mephis a month ago

1, The scale of the child abuse. Not just the odd 'bad apple' I'd been told. Still makes my blood boil.
2. The nature of judicial committees for sexual 'sins'. Compounded when it is a survivor of a serious crime being asked those questions. Deeply disgusting and shameful they do that to anyone.
3. The number of people who trod the 607 path without knowing they weren't alone.
4. The extent of the deceit required to write a sourced WBTS article. (eg the quotations in the Creation book).
5. I'd not checked on JWs for a long time, so the difference between the religion I walked away from and the overtly culty 'listen, obey, be blessed' really shocked me.
 +2 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

girlnextdoor: Would like to research those bullet points more. Any direction would be greatly appreciated OC.
Jaydee posted a link to the Australian Blood Managment story that highlights Farmer and Hofmann's involvement.
It took me a while to find this next item. This information is no longer available on the SABM website, but, The Wayback Machine is wonderful. They have a cached copy of the information that confirms that the Watchtower Society was given the President's Award in 2002.
The SABM® President's Award is presented annually at SABM's Annual Meeting to candidates who have made a substantial contribution to the field of blood conservation, contributed to the public good in the area of safety of the blood supply or reduction of unnecessary transfusions, and have had a career that focused on blood safety.
I am working on a list of the JWs that I have discovered who are doctors, nurses, bloodless clinic managers, and textbook writers for the blood management industry. Sorry, it may take a while to put it all together in one spot.
In the meantime, here are some big names in blood management who are JWs:
Shannon Farmer; Richard Melseth; Alex Hofmann; Petra Seeber; Matthias Lucas; Sherri Ozawa; Sharon Vernon; Edward Blakeney...and more.
 +3 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago

OrphanCrow;
was you shocked when the AJWRB group was formed? an anonymous secret group made up of elders who opposed the WTS blood ban policy, I wonder if you know the real reason the blood ban was implemented? the 2 sexual deviants who were to become the presidents of the WTS made a promise at the deathbed of the alcoholic, ego maniac bully because he had this strange idea? cult leaders seem to have this very strange relationship with the medical profession, The Plymouth Brethren, Scientologists, The Amish, etc, strange isnt it?
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago

but my favourite 5 would be
The Malawi/Mexico scandal
Mad Freddie Franz' keen obsession and regularity in visiting gay saunas
Beth Sarim and the alcoholic second president
Ted Jaracz child abuse
GB members Greenleas and Chittys removal from the GB for homosexuality, and the slap on the wrist punishment they received, hypocrisy and breathtaking double standards
 +3 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a month ago

@Millie210,
Can you explain about the Malawi non-issue?
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago
Millie210 you really need to read up on the Amnesty International reports about the Banda ragtime in Malawi in the 1970's not only to jw's but to the Indian community among others
 
millie210
millie210 a month ago

What do you mean jookbeard?
Point me in the right direction and I will read!
 
millie210
millie210 a month ago

Anders Andersen
@Millie210,
Can you explain about the Malawi non-issue?
Hi Anders,
That the persecution was already over and we here in the States were still being told it was a current event.
Here is a link
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/381520001/funny-little-diplomatic-cable-regarding-malawi-atrocities-against-jws-1975
Im not sure if jook has more info but I am always wanting to learn more!
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago
interesting that Millie, a brother I spoke with at when I was a Dub he had read this AI report and I didn't pay exact attention to the dates when the widespread persecution was taking place but this report was not even quoted in any Yearbook due to the graphic descriptions of the atrocities that Banda was inflicting on them, a wiki search lists incidents in 1967/1972 and 1975/6, Malawi was also receiving humanitarian aid from the UN, again I dont have the links of the exact dates but the issue surrounding the so called "party card" that the jw's were not allowed to wear or carry was also card that they would have needed to show to claim any aid.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago

another sub 5 if Slim will permit would be
the huge child abuse cover up/court cases etc
Their UN membership
The Rand Corp share ownership
the organ/vaccination ban
finding out what really happens during a judicial committee
 
Phizzy
Phizzy a month ago

My JW parents brought me up to be a lover of truth, and to stay as far away from the things of Satan's world as possible.
So, my Top 5 that I found on the Internet would be :
1) They Lied ! about Child Abuse
2) They Lied ! about 607/1914, at least since Carl.O Jonsonn wrote to them in the early 70's.
3) They Lied ! about U.N membership.
4) They Lied ! about shunning/DFing etc
5) They lied about their whole History.
To discover that these people I trusted were mendacious in the extreme was like discovering your "parents" were not the honest people you believed them to be, not really your parents, and worse were nasty, greedy criminals.
 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim a month ago

Most shocking thing I learned from internet;
**Beth Sarim and the alcoholic second president**
Henceforth, my username!!!!
 +4 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

jookbeard: OrphanCrow;
was you shocked when the AJWRB group was formed? an anonymous secret group made up of elders who opposed the WTS blood ban policy,
I wasn't shocked that the AJWRB group was formed. Not at all. I was pleased. I just was surprised it hadn't happened sooner. The internet is what facillitated the group forming. It would have been difficult without the internet.
I wonder if you know the real reason the blood ban was implemented? the 2 sexual deviants who were to become the presidents of the WTS made a promise at the deathbed of the alcoholic, ego maniac bully because he had this strange idea?
I do not buy that as the real reason that the blood ban was put in place. Rutherford died in January, 1942 out in California. He spent most of his time out there in his later years - I have read that Knorr and Franz did not get along with him and that they didn't even arrange a proper funeral for him. They couldn't wait for him to croak and get out of the way and they did not attend to his deathbed. Rutherford did not want to pass the reins over to them, he had named Hayden Covington as his successor.
I do not see Knorr and Franz being bound by some promise to drunk Rutherford. If that was the case, then they would implented it before they did - the blood ban was put in place right on the heels of the end of WW2 - in 1945, following tactic approval of blood transfusions - a full 2 1/2 years after Rutherford's death.
Rutherford had nothing to do with the blood ban - that was Knorr's puppy.
 +2 / -0

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How the Internet is Destroying Mormonism
by slimboyfat a month ago 37 Replies latest a month ago   watchtower beliefs
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Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim a month ago
This is the **information age**. Doesn't come as a surprise that the internet is destroying some religions.
 +2 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy a month ago

I do hope that the Internet, and the spread of true knowledge by any means, will bring an end to all organized religion eventually.
All Organized Religion enslaves people in some way, and bleeds them dry, not only of money, but more importantly, of self-determination, and self-esteem.
Personal faith may remain, and, if it does, will do no harm, I hope.
 +3 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

Gawd...my math skills went to sleep...
I had said "the blood ban was put in place right on the heels of the end of WW2 - in 1945, following tactic approval of blood transfusions - a full 2 1/2 years after Rutherford's death."
That should be 3 and a half years...



 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim a month ago

**All Organized Religion enslaves people in some way, and bleeds them dry, not only of money, but more importantly, of self-determination, and self-esteem.**
Organized Religion is captive. You can see how cult-like it is. Very evident with high control groups such as JWs. Everyone outside of their group is out of bounds. Only time you are allowed to socialize with them is Field Serve Us. Other than that, out of bounds. Who you are allowed to socialize with and love are examples of high control groups like that of cults.
 +2 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago

OC, I always thought the blood ban came into full force in the early 1950's so what was Knorrs' motivation to think this dreadful doctrine up? did he just pluck it out of thin air? was it borrowed from another belief system?did he think about the repercussions for the R&F ? did he pay any attention to the destruction, death and damage it would do? they have a Jonestown tragedy many times over! did he just make it up because he could?.
Hayden Covington was of the great crowd and the Judge must have known Knorr and Franz could never have considered him for presidency, plus he was playing a very important role as the WT legal counsel , a role they would have wanted him to remain in.
 +1 / -0
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad a month ago

The internet is without a doubt having an adverse and negative effect on the WTBTS in the same way it's affecting the Mormon faith.
A friend in the same congregation I attend was recently relating to me how she simply typed 'Jehovah's Witnesses' on google search and to her surprise she found experience after experience of current and ex-JW's unhappy life stories. She further mentioned it was so habit forming to want read more and more of soo many topics and doctrinal issues people have with the organization. She was amazed to say the least! She had to admit that there has to be some truth to all this unfavorable talk online about WT.
So a simple formula can give us a conservative figure of just how problematic the internet is to WT.
The 2015 Yearbook states there are 115,416 congregations worldwide. It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that there could likely be on average 2 persons per congregation (more than 300,000) being in some way disturbed by this extensive mention and negative publicity of JWs online. The numbers of publishers learning more and more of WT's dark side quickly rises to between 500,000 to 750,000, easily, if one figures that as many as 6, 7 or more per congregation may be doing some independent JW reading on the internet. And those numbers just reflect the reading habits of JWs for one day. Imagine the education people are getting about the real truth about the 'Truth' day after day, week after week and month after month...Yay!
 +2 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a month ago

Richard Singelenberg argued that blood donation became prevalent during the Second World War and was bound up with patriotism and supporting the troops, and that's why initially JWs took against it.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/027795369090048W?via%3Dihub

 +2 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

I apologize in advance, SlimBoyFat, for de-railing this thread...but, the questions have been asked. And it would be rude not to answer. And besides, it still pertains to the information age explosion. What I am about to say wouldn't be possible without the sources to back it up.
OC, I always thought the blood ban came into full force in the early 1950's so what was Knorrs' motivation to think this dreadful doctrine up? did he just pluck it out of thin air? was it borrowed from another belief system?did he think about the repercussions for the R&F ? did he pay any attention to the destruction, death and damage it would do? they have a Jonestown tragedy many times over! did he just make it up because he could?.
The first mention of a blood transfusion ban came in July 1945, with one little hint of it in I believe, December 1944 - both mentioned in the WT magazine. I think I have those dates right - jwfacts has those dates.
When I first found that out, because most people don't realize when it became a prohibition along with me, I wanted to know why. Why would Knorr take a radically different stance on a procedure that had been implicitly approved in earlier literature and why then? Why would he ban blood transfusions when the rest of the world was making huge advances in that field?
So I took a look at where blood technology was during WW2. Doctrine is flexible (very flexible in the JWs) and can be manipulated in response to outside events. History is less flexible - some of it just gets covered up. So I read this book:
Blood: An Epic History of Medicine and Commerce by Douglas Starr - 2000
Starr gives a detailed account of blood history and examines each country's contribution to the advancement of blood technology. WW2 was responsible for many advances in the field of the medical use of blood - the US (Cohn) developed fractionization, the Russians used blood copiously (even employing cadavar blood) and the Japanese even tried horse blood. And the Canadians - it was a Canadian, in the Spanish Civil War, who developed the system that bloomed into blood banking.
There was only one country that lagged behind in their blood research. They went the other way when it came to blood transfusions. They didn't like them - for various reasons including ideologically. During the war, while everyone else was looking for ways to increase the use of life-saving blood transfusions, Germany was researching ways to reduce and eliminate the use of blood.
The Germans conducted their research in pursuit of clotting agents, and ways to reduce blood loss. At the same time, when they did resort to giving blood, they often didn't give enough. They misused the blood typing, based on erroneous interpetation of racial blood typing, which resulted in hemolytic reactions.
Knorr's roots were in Germany - he was related to the German Knorrs - the ones who owned all those food interests. Knorr Foods. Nathan Knorr was German.
The parameters of the German blood research during WW2 can be found in the pillars of today's blood management, a field of medicine that is heavily influenced by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Blood management follows the German ideology of WW2 blood research - small amounts of blood and given rarely, the use of clotting agents and minimal blood sampling.
So, to answer the question - did Knorr make it up because he could? Yes, he did. He could control a whole group of people's choices in blood use, thereby creating a convenient sample group for testing noblood technology. He had the power to do so and he did.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago
Choice? the sad thing is that choice is one thing that the R&F didn't have, suicide or a death bed JC, what a choice!
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

I forgot to mention this...
The ideology of rejecting the use of blood transfusions was also, at the time, reflected in the WT's alliances with the world of chiropractry and oesteopaths. 'Bloodless surgery' at the time of WW2, was a term used by chiros - a form of 'deep massage' that was practiced by - guess who? - Dr. Felix Kersten, Heinrich Himmler's doctor. Kersten was the 'hero' of the JWs during the war. There is much more I could say about how the WT's quasi-medical beliefs were the basis for implementing a full-on blood prohibition and the JWs relationship with Himmler.
When I started to examine the history of the bloodless world, there was very little on the internet to fill in what I wanted to know - where did bloodless surgery originate and how come the JWs couldn't have blood? What was the connection and was there one? So most of my early research was done with the aid of much 'hard research' - I buried my nose in hard copy. Everything from a copy of Dr. Felix Kersten's journal to loads of stuff on Heinrich Himmler, the German who was treated by a 'bloodless surgeon', the friend of the JWs. I even frequented the medical library at the university hospital, looking for where and when bloodless medicine came about. I found lots, but it was hard.
It wasn't until a few years later that the current 'history of bloodless medicine' became available online. And...guess what? One of the authors of a textbook that is used in educating blood management professionals is written by a JW doctor. From Germany. With their version of 'the history of bloodless medicine'. You now can find out where it came from and all that...from a Jehovah's Witness. Watchtower propaganda.
Funny how that went full circle.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a month ago
thanks OC, quite interesting, I've never heard it from that angle before
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

Oh...and another thing...
Where the internet was vital to me at the time I was reading books, was in opening lines of communication. I corresponded with several authors of the books I read, including Douglas Starr, the author of the book I first mentioned, asking questions. And I got good feedback.
I even managed to track down and correspond with a doctor that the JWs used in their early noblood propaganda. He was great.
That kind of information access and lines of communication are invaluable.
 +2 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

jookbeard: Choice? the sad thing is that choice is one thing that the R&F didn't have, suicide or a death bed JC, what a choice!
Oh, but...the JWs had already demonstrated that ability during WW2 - to die for Jehovah. Loyalty or death. They still flog that one to death.
It was that attribute that endeared them to Himmler. By the end of the war, the JWs who were selected to work for Himmler's SS network, were released on a handshake. Yeah...Himmler greatly admired the "loyalty or death" principle that the JWs demonstrated. In fact, he had plans to use them as a vanguard in conquered territory following German victory.
But...I digress.
 +3 / -0
Terry
Terry a month ago

The most interesting thing I learned when reading about cognitive dissonance is how you can expose
a True Believer to debunking information and a few days later their confidence has strengthened and
the damaging news has been expunged.

The will to believe is apparently much stronger than the need to know.
The emotional core of Latter Day Saints is their social support and the alienation Mormons feel
in regard to average 'normal' society. JW's do NOT support the personal needs of members at all while the Mormon church devotes considerable time, energy and funds to this.
Having said all that, the future of any religious group is in its youth. If youth are disaffected, they will leave. If they leave, the church becomes geriatric, reactionary, bitter, and dangerous. The JW's went down that road in the later 80's. Will either religion dissolve? I can't see it happening. I just can't.
Stupidity and indoctrination are insurmountable.
 +2 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

Terry: Stupidity and indoctrination are insurmountable.
Absolutely.
There will always be martyrs. It is a human complex. I think of my JW sister, so self righteously and pridefully saying, with a twinge in her pathetic voice "Oh....woe is me. The doctors here can't operate on me. They don't have bloodless surgery." Defiantly resisting any discussion on the matter. "The Watchtower says. And they have da Troof, you know. That is just the way it is."
Do or die. She thrives on it. It keeps her from taking responsibilty for making her own decisions.
 +3 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a month ago
1. Beth Sarim. That jw's could be taught all about JW history so selectively, and leave out this major story that was even published in LIFE magazine, with a picture of Rutherford in his mansion, which he was 'safekeeping' for the prophets who were supposedly going to be resurrected (in 1925?). 2. That the history of their 1914 doctrine is so twisted by themselves, hiding the very embarrassing details, including how Russel substantiated the evidence by counting the feet of the passages inside the Great Pyramid. 3.That people hurt by watchtower rules and doctrine were not only in my own congregation, but prevalently throughout the world, and much worse, and that families are being torn apart on a global scale, every day, resulting in one resounding unified cry of heartache as a result of associating with JW's. 4. That 607 wasnt when Babylon was destroyed, but the watchtower can't update their incorrect date because it undermines their whole schpeil. 5. That JW's are a cult. Cult cult culty cult C-U-L-T CULT!
And one for extra credit!6. Miracle wheat!
 +2 / -0
done4good
done4good a month ago


Terry- The will to believe is apparently much stronger than the need to know.
This is an unfortunate artifact of evolution. Survival is at the core of what belief is about. In the biological sense, belief is an extension of our psyche beyond our five senses and what can be directly observed by them, (as is intuition, however intuition is based on abstracted information by those senses, belief is not). Animals that are potential prey do not reason. They react to perceived danger. They choose to believe a certain danger exists, based on limited input, (such as the sound of the trees or plants around them moving = a predator that wants to eat them), as opposed to reason whether the danger is real or not. This allows them a better chance of survival, and preserves the species over time.
Humans have evolved a conscience and the ability to reason, however in the evolutionary sense, this is a recently developed ability. Our most primal instincts are to survive first. If we look at this from the perspective of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, survival is the most basic, being a physiological need. This is followed by the needs for safety, love, esteem, and finally, self-actualization. Accepting facts is the centerpiece of what self-actualization is all about. Most humans never even get to this level, since rarely are all of the lower level human needs met sufficiently. To expect humans to care about facts at the risk of their survival is precisely why humans react to cognitive dissonance by digging in deeper, and even more resolved to ignore facts when we push them on this. The reality is, their belief, (however misguided and dangerous it might be), is regarded as a safety net to protect them. When facts are presented that cause them cognitive dissonance, they become fearful that their belief system, (their safety net), is at risk of failing. Their first instinct is to rebuild that net, at all costs. Even the most intelligent people are at risk of this self-delusion, because of its relationship with basic primal survival needs.
All ideologies, (religious, political, etc.), are very suspect to this type of logical fallacy.

d4g

 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot a month ago


slimboyfat - "What a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about JWs on the Internet?"
Not so much "shocking" for me per se, but angering ("angrifying?").
1. academic dishonesty
2. using internal judicial processes to conceal criminal acts rather than expose them
3. favoring ideology over evidence
4. placing lives at risk unnecessarily (by various means, for various reasons)


5. abusing tax-exempt status for illicit gain
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
interesting video, shame it wasn't about jws.
http://youtu.be/-1bdbkjbzzy.
what a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about jws on the internet?.



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Just recovering from a 'Mormon Mind Melt' ...
by LoveUniHateExams 5 months ago 18 Replies latest 5 months ago   jw experiences
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LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 5 months ago

I was in town centre about an hour ago to buy a shirt and tie for an upcoming job interview when I was stopped by a youngish, clean cut American young man (20-ish) in a cheap suit. My heart sank as I thought it was local JWs.  To my slight relief, it was Mormons!
Elder so-and-so introduced himself as a Mormon and started to ask whether I believed in God or Jesus Christ. He had a German or Danish sounding surnamed that escapes me - I'll call him Elder Jensen 
As I've been screwed over by JWism, not Mormonism, I chose not to say that I'm an exJW, and to go easy on him. I said that I come from a moderate Christian background, but I'm a scientist, recently-graduated from the local university.
I said that I accept evolution due to the abundant evidence, so reject creationism. At this point a local man & woman (50-ish) came up to me and introduced themselves as Mormons (I forget their names, too, but let's call them Fred & Vera - they're good northern names ).
Fred listened to my reasoning about science, and started talking about 'signs', a la Watchtower. I then told them that of all the times in history, today, in 2015, in the West, is the best time to be alive, what with the advances in medicine and science. I told them they should be glad that they're preaching in the West and not, say, in Russia (they might get beaten up) or in Saudi Arabia (they might get beheaded). They reluctantly agreed. As for his 'signs', I said that people are allowed to believe in what they like but it's just that: belief, not knowledge.
I tried to be open minded and say that I don't know whether God exists, and that evolution doesn't necessarily disprove his existence. I also said that if an invisible, magical God does exist, we scientists couldn't collect empirical data in support of his existence or against it. Then Fred hit me with: "we actually believe God is made of flesh and bone"  I kid you not! So I said, being a biologist, "bodies aren't perfect, but they do have defenses against dust, pathogens, etc. In what way does God have a perfect body of flesh and bone?"
Fred: "It's perfect - it has no blemishes, disease, imperfections ..."
Me: "you're telling me what it isn't but you're not telling me what it is - you're not defining perfect"
I then said "look, don't be offended, but it's just how my mind works - if an angel approached God and punched him, would God get a bruise?" 
Vera: "we don't know that much" 
This made me squirm inside, because I can just imagine that JWs are similarly fake-modest.
They tried to push the Book of Mormon on me but I said "no, I'll look at your website instead!"
Apart from details of doctrine, I was struck by how similar they were to the JWs. The Book of Mormon had the same plastic hardback, gold-coloured lettering as the NTW Bible. It could almost have been printed by the WTS!
I'd be interested to hear about any experiences you've had with Mormons.
Also, my anti-witnessing - how did I do? What did I do well, where did I go wrong?
 +5 / -0
cultBgone
cultBgone 5 months ago

I don't know how you endured that long, but kudos to you for hanging in there! And I've heard some wacko things from ex-mormons, but that's the first time I've heard about g*d being a physical creature. Thanks for sharing this!

I am also struck by how similar these two "religions" are. With that in mind, and with all the similarities that have been mentioned on this board between jws and mormons, will any of us be surprised one day to find that there's a large, fabulously wealthy international corporation called Religion, Inc. that markets most of the worldwide religions?
One does have to wonder about these huge money-making businesses (disguised as religions) that are focused on Wealth Management rather than Helping People.
For those who believe: What would Jesus say?

 +2 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 5 months ago
*Names in this article have been changed.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 5 months ago

You know the world's turned upside down when hardcore Tolkein fans hate Middle-Earth movies, the biggest country stars record pop albums, and people would rather talk to Mormon missionaries then JWs...
 +4 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 5 months ago
The last time I met Mormons I told them I had just left a cult and wasn't ready to join another one. But I told them that if those divine gold bars show up somewhere then I have the right to change my mind. They were very adamant that they had the one and only truth. I also complimented them on their organization (even though i called it a cult). I said, "at least your organization provides a college and degree for you to look forward to after you labor through your requisite two year ministry. My organization doesn't provide jack squat. They just take and take and take." They awkwardly shook my hand and skidaddled out of there.

 +2 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 5 months ago
Also, I asked them if they had apostates in their religion. They admitted that apostates were dangerous and prevalent. Like JWs they avoid them and refuse to debate doctrine with them.

 +2 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 5 months ago
The mormons must be getting something right or getting bigger blessings than the JW`s isn't there like 15 million of them. I remember telling my kid`s about their calendar & how good looking Mormon men had their pic`s taken without their shirts on with a bible in their hand, of corse they didn't believe me till I showed them on the net. They couldn't believe their eye`s. I gotta say they do have some very handsome young men in there. Caused a bit of controversy I believe.
 
Fisherman
Fisherman 5 months ago

I'd be interested to hear about any experiences you've had with Mormons.
"The book of Mormon is from God because the angel said so, and the angel would not have said so if it was not from God, and besides that, the book of Mormon is better than the Bible, which is only the word of God as far as it can be translated correctly, that is not the case with the book of Mormon, because Salt Lake City is where the Garden of Eden use to be, and we have prophets today to prove it, and that is because we want your 10 percent, and never take off your holy underwear. And we know it is the truth because we have prophets that tell us, and God would not tell the prophets the truth unless they were prophets,-would he- and that is how we know they are prophets, because God speaks to them. In any case God would never lie. (Hey you want to have a lot of sex with as many wives as you can afford? -but you cannot have sex before marriage, it is a sin, and you must marry your wives before having sex.)" The Kings James Bible is the best because we like it and the reason we like it is becaiuse the book of Mormon quotes from the King James, and that is why KJV is the best.
"After billions of eons of time have passed, you will get to be God too over your own parallel universe. Bringum Young!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Keep bringing them young (especially the females.)
Tithe of 15 million Mormons revenue per year is a lot of hay.
I only have one question for you, can you support your views? "We don't know that much."
 +2 / -0
cappytan
cappytan 5 months ago

Fisherman: I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything, so please don't take this the wrong way. You are a paradox! It's interesting to me that you can easily and intelligently pick out the flawed logic and circular reasoning of Mormons, but completely overlook the flawed and circular reasonings of the JWs.
 +3 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 5 months ago
Good review of Mormons Fisherman! Now it's time to remove that blind spot and start examining your own religion.

 +4 / -0
maksutov
maksutov 5 months ago

I had a similar discussion with a pair of Mormons who came to my door - they also told me that God is made of flesh and bone (but not blood, I think). My response was: "So does God have legs?" They replied that he does indeed. I asked what he used them for - after all, he doesn't really need to walk anywhere does he? Why would he have legs? That kinda stumped Mormon 1, but Mormon 2 stepped in and said that he thinks maybe sometimes God likes to walk around among his creation. Yeah, maybe, lol.

 +2 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 5 months ago
Mormons were found by a fraudster. I think that says it all.

 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 5 months ago

Mormon 2 stepped in and said that he thinks maybe sometimes God likes to walk around among his creation
I guess that would explain all the Bigfoot sightings ...
 +2 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 5 months ago

Before I moved out to New York with my wife I stayed in Park City, Utah from 1998-2003. Many of my friends were Mormons and used the opportunity to pick their brains and read their literature. Although I found their beliefs easy to tear apart (claiming that there were ancient Israelite and other kingdoms on the Americas continents but zero archeological evidence to support this), they never once got offended, but merely chose to dodge questions the way all ideologists do. In my opnion the religion is truly a "clown" religion in how preposterous their claims are:
1) Jesus returned a second time just to annoint the US and its people as the new Holy Land with a new chosen people. No records of such an event has ever been found.
2) The angel Moroni showed Joseph Smith the sacred golden plates and was told to bury them near his home. These big, solid gold plates have never been found, despite only have been burried around 1823 and that area of New York being heavily excavated and built on.
3) There were feudal kingdoms akin to the great kindgdoms of the Middle East in the Americas, yet apart from those mighty civilizations of South America, nothing even close has ever been discovered on the North American continent, which is just silly considering the development in the US yet no one has stumbled on any of this mighty kingdoms.
I chose these points because they don't challenge the concept of magical beings, but common sense when one considers the lack of archeological evidence to support these claims. In terms of practical argument, their claims are absurd.
What really struck me are how many misconceptions there are regarding their beliefs and lifestyles.
1) They don't have sex through bedsheets
2) Mormons practicing polygamy are ostracized by the mainstream Mormons
3) Mormons do not shun
4) Mormons only constitute about 40% of the Salt Lake City and surrounding counties population.
5) Mormons do not own all or even most of Salt Lake City's real estate.
What I did like about them is how proud they are of their outdoors. When I was last there (2014) there was no litter to speak of everywhere we went. Entire communities volunteer to keep their alloted areas clean. The health care system is also regarded as one of the best in the country.
The religion itself may be for clowns, but I really liked the people.
 +4 / -0
cultBgone
cultBgone 5 months ago

SSC: 2) The angel Moroni showed Joseph Smith the sacred golden plates and was told to bury them near his home. These big, solid gold plates have never been found, despite only have been burried around 1823 and that area of New York being heavily excavated and built on.
He didn't happen to live near Warwick, did he? Maybe the plates are at the bottom of that lake.
(Sorry, just couldn't help myself.)

 +2 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 5 months ago
Man has created God in his own image. And they call me crazyguy.
 
HB
HB 5 months ago

My sister and I chatted with two young Mormons on the High Street in Romford, Essex.
One was American with stunning ‘Hollywood A-list’ good looks, age about 28, tall and slim; the other was a quiet red-head from Sweden with a chunky build, maybe aged about 20. The good looking one did most of the talking. I strongly suspected that the Swedish guy had doubts about his faith and was not enjoying missionary service.
A few years ago, I would not have had a clue how to talk with them, (I've never been a JW) but regularly reading debates on this forum has taught me a lot. I still have much to learn and I don’t know the bible like most of you here do, so I steer clear of deep biblical debate, but I enjoyed the challenge of making the Mormons think. My sister is a Humanist like me, and although she has no experience at all of debating religious issues, she is very chatty and sociable.
We talked for about half an hour, it was very friendly. During the conversation, my sister asked the Mormons why they dressed so stuffily in suits, and suggested they would have better success engaging with people if they looked more normal, especially in Romford. She recommended T-shirt and jeans which would be appropriate for their age and the town. The older one said their suits were a symbol to demonstrate their respect for a righteous life style, the younger one just looked embarrassed and uncomfortable as if he’d love to rip his jacket and tie off there and then.
My sister invited them to come out with us later that evening to join a group of our friends in the pub, explaining that although we would be having fun, no one would be unrighteous. The American naturally declined the invitation, but we just knew the Swede would have loved to join us, his eyes gave it away.
We covered several topics but the one I recall best was asking if they had ever personally experienced a prayer being answered. The examples they gave were not impressive, and quite superficial, like a headache being cured, but they assure me others had had miraculous answers to prayer.
I asked them why God would take the time to cure a slightly inconvenient headache but fail to answer prayers for starving people in the developing world. The good looking Mormon said that if God didn’t answer such prayers, it must be his will for these people to starve. My sister asked how they could worship a god who behaved like that. I asked if he would be prepared to tell that to the mother of a baby in arms who was dying of mal-nutrition.
The answer he gave stunned me: He said the baby would be better off dead as it would go to Heaven and therefore bypass all the suffering it would have endured on the earth. I gasped slightly and said derisively, in that case, as an act of kindness, why don’t we just go and kill all the babies and young children in the third world right now to save them the bother of living?
The Swede hung his head and was staring at the floor, looking really uncomfortable, and shifting from foot to foot. The American looked confused and embarrassed, and just said that was not quite what he meant. However I knew the point was made so I didn’t spoil the friendly atmosphere by pushing it further and we thanked them for an interesting chat and moved on.

 +1 / -0
rebel8
rebel8 5 months ago

They have hidden scandals in their history, just like wts. For example, the women used to be allowed to have >1 husband. This is not widely known among Mormons. It is on ancestry dot com. You can show them those things and it will be a shock to them.
A Comparison: Ex-Mormons and Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 5 months ago

I think the Proposition 8 scandal embarrassed the LDS so much that it empowered and enabled the more liberal elements of the Mormon leadership to take the church in the direction it really needed to go (to survive in the Information Age), and we're seeing the results.
 

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The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture
by cofty a year ago 39 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty a year ago

If you think the Mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.
The historical information in this talk by David Fitzgerald is fascinating. The good news is that, just like the Watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.
Grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.
Lucy Harris has become my new heroine. Don't miss the section from 8:50



 +5 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd a year ago
I have always said this. The Mormon church is more fanciful but the watchtower is more dangerous.
 
Magnum
Magnum a year ago
Thanks. I'm downloading it from YouTube so I can listen to it tomorrow when I'm on the road.
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a year ago
Watched the whole thing. An excellent video.
 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven a year ago

Thanks for posting this cofty. Very informative.
Good to know their founder was a fraudster. That's all one really needs to know. Everything flows from that. Runaway!

 +1 / -0
scary21
scary21 a year ago

Thanks Cofty, I learned a few things even all I've read many books on Mormon history.
 +1 / -0
cantleave
cantleave a year ago

This is why I get pissed with cult members who come here trying to recruit ExJWs to a new kind of crazy.
 +1 / -0
RULES & REGULATIONS
RULES & REGULATIONS a year ago

cofty
I watched the whole video and enjoyed every minute of it!
Mr. Fitzgerald is a wonderful speaker and leaves no stone uncovered.
I always wondered why God would pick a fraudster like Joseph Smith, have an angel named Maroni ( what a stupid name for an angel....must of been an Italian angel) visit Mr.Smith ( who is always by himself ) numerous times and directs him to buried golden plates. According to Smith, he returned the golden plates to Moroni after they were translated and as of 1838 the angel Moroni still had the plates in his possession.
My questions are: Why would God or Maroni need these plates back? Why didn't they leave them if God wanted believers? Who is more bizarre and wacky.....Mr Smith or his followers?
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Wacky indeed!
Kind of the same "wacky" as Witnesses are thinking that God speaks only to the GB, and can never get things correct!
 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher a year ago

I loved the T-shirt that said, "Former Mormon, Ask Me How!"
Could we get an Ex JW T-shirt like that?
 
RULES & REGULATIONS
RULES & REGULATIONS a year ago

After being placed on the Salt Lake Temple after its completion in 1893, the statue of the angel Macaroni has since been placed on many other LDS temples. It has become an unofficial symbol for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and is recognized throughout the world.


 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago
The angel Macaroni seems pretty cheesy to me....
 +2 / -0
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a year ago

Cofty, you never cease to amaze me. When people misrepresent atheism, you're the first to get your shorts in a knot. Now you post an absurd, amazingly inaccurate and inflammatory video where atheist David Fitzgerald, through blatantly false information and misrepresentation, carefully constructs a strawman for his audience, then knocks it down without a thought as far as accuracy is concerned.
Much of his “history“ is taken from early anti-Mormon books and later discredited as ridiculously lurid, sensational and of highly questionable pedigree. The only real grain of truth is the 1826 Bainbridge judgment against Smith, which is probably why Fitzgerald started off with it. But nearly every point he made he was wrong on. Smith's arrest, according to the report, was made on the oath of the son of his employer, Josiah Stowell, who was delighted with Joseph's work (which consisted mostly of physical labor). Two, the report was found by an avowed enemy of the church and someone who claimed a doctorate he didn't have. And three, the document never could be verified as genuine (and if genuine, it was the only surviving record recovered at the court). Wesley Walters, author of Kingdom of the Cults and the “discoverer“ of the record, said he believed God's hand was in the fact that one record survived. Do you buy that Cofty? More information can be found at:
http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2002-fair-conference/2002-the-1826-trial-of-joseph-smith
The quickest way to get laughs is to build one's strawman out of material that's built on lies, then ridicule it in the hopes that others won't check your sources too closely. One problem for anti-Mormons is that everything Joseph Smith taught was carefully recorded by educated recorders or found in multiple journals.
“In the mouth of two our three witnesses shall every word be established.“ Finding one account in one journal, like many of the sources your friend Fitzgerald does, or finding them in a book that references old anti-Mormon books that, worse, based them on affidavits collected by early anti-Mormon books, makes fine material for strawmen, but it's hardly scholarly.
But then, that audience really wasn't there for scholarly purposes, were they?
 +1 / -1
scary21
scary21 a year ago

I guess DNA lies too.....

 
cofty
cofty a year ago

you're the first to get your shorts in a knot. - Cold Steel
A man who wears magic pants should really choose their metaphors more carefully.
I thought the video was fascinating and informative. Your cult is crazier than the Watchtower.
 +3 / -0
Fisherman
Fisherman a year ago
marked
 
cantleave
cantleave a year ago
It's amazing how much Cold Steel sounds like active JW's trying to defend the indefensible.
 +4 / -0
jhine
jhine a year ago

Cold Steel , how much of Mormon doctrine did the video get right ? Do Mormons believe that they will become like God and rule their own worlds , for instance ?
Jan
 
lrkr
lrkr a year ago

Truly an amazing story about the power of delusion, belief, charisma etc. If it didn't adversely impact so many lives Mormonism would be a fascinating sociological experiment.
Also, less than 200 years after its founding (at a time with relatively high literacy and printing presses) the lines between legend and fact are very blurred. Makes you think about how the Christian religion itself must have layered legend upon legend.
 +1 / -0
RULES & REGULATIONS
RULES & REGULATIONS a year ago

God hands over plates to Moses ( they somehow seem to get smashed into pieces ). The Angel Maroni hands plates to Joseph Smith ( the Angel now wants them back for some reason). Why can't God find anyone on this earth to preserve these plates? OH! Maybe there were no plates to begin with!

 +1 / -0

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The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture
by cofty a year ago 39 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Phizzy
Phizzy a year ago
I wish this guy would apply his expertise to the JW "religion" in a similar lecture/video, I would forward it to every JW I know.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a year ago

Why would God or Maroni need these plates back? Why didn't they leave them if God wanted believers?
Actually those aren't bad questions. But first, if Smith was telling the truth he was not a fraudster, right? So why did the angel take the plates back? First, about two-thirds of the plates were sealed (see Isaiah 29:11-14; 18-21) and Smith wasn't permitted to translate them or even look at them. Also, the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't ever provide anyone with proof until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never. (See reply to Cofty below.) Had Smith produced the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that. And do you believe he would have been able to keep them? How about the man upon whose land Smith found them? Wouldn't he have claimed a right to them? “After all, ol' Joe Smith found them on my land! He only came up with that 'translation' after he found them on my property!“ The stone box was still intact on the hill as well as the large rock covering it. Some of the early saints reported seeing them for some time and said they were there for all to see. But of course anyone could have constructed such and no one would have been the wiser.
Finally, if we had the plates today for all to see, would you become a Latter-day Saint? Something tells me you would simply find another objection.
Cofty: I thought the video was fascinating and informative. Your cult is crazier than the Watchtower.
So what you're saying is, “I care not what the truth is, I choose to believe it anyway!“ Joseph Smith said, “It is true [that men ] have eyes to see, and see not, but none are so blind as those who will not see.“ He also said that anyone can have proof if it is built on a foundation of faith, prayer and seeking. “And thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it,“ he said, “you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.“ Thus, any person can attain the visions and power that Joseph Smith, Moses or any prophet who ever lived. “God hath not revealed anything to [me], but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them....“
Believe what you will, then; you are only limiting yourself.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty a year ago

Cold Steel - Have you the slightest clue how the world outside of Utah views your cult?
the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't ever provide anyone with proof until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never... Had Smith produced the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that.
Can't you see your contradiction?
1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away
2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.
Just like apologists for any fraudulent cult you tie yourself in knots with your intellectual dishonesty.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty a year ago

anyone can have proof if it is built on a foundation of faith, prayer and seeking
Faith is mind-rot.
It is the dishonest device that leads gullible people to believe lies.
Embrace an evidence-based worldview and stop the exhausting game of lying for god.
 +2 / -0
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a year ago

This is why I get pissed with cult members who come here trying to recruit ExJWs to a new kind of crazy.
Well let's get something straight. I didn't start this message thread. I'm only responding to a staggering display of ignorance on the part of a hit and run sophomoric fellow who has, unfortunately learned to write before learning to think. I don't know, but I suspect he's in high school, has read a few books and thinks he has figured out just how the Universe is run. And BTW, he's also an atheist, which certainly qualifies as a religion. So some of us are not atheists, despite the wont of many of them that this all should be a board dedicated to ex-JWs who are now militant atheists. But many still want to be Christians and are bullied by outspoken critics of all religion.
If people here want to slam Mormonism, I believe I have the right to respond. And while I'm not here recruiting, I do encourage people not to reject Christianity, but to believe in Christ and continue searching.
 +1 / -3
cofty
cofty a year ago

many still want to be Christians and are bullied by outspoken critics of all religion
Please explain how the presentation of facts, evidence and reason is equivalent to bullying.
As a rational person I thrive on challenges to my worldview. I don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary. The more facts somebody can offer me to correct my beliefs the better. I will love you for it.
On the other hand people who base their beliefs on faith get angry and make childish personal attacks when they are confronted by evidence. Your previous post is a classic example. Thanks.
 
cofty
cofty a year ago

Coldsteel - Just before your rant, I was asking you about your contradiction. You made the following two points.
1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away.
2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.
Which is it?
 +1 / -0
dropoffyourkeylee
dropoffyourkeylee a year ago

Just listened to the entire thing. A bit on the sensational side, but interesting.
It's a shame that he doesn't bring out the JW roots in the 'burned over' district of upstate NY, though he does mention the SDA connection.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a year ago

Please explain how the presentation of facts, evidence and reason is equivalent to bullying.
Very well. You post a virulent anti-Mormon video without first checking out its validity. Then, when caught, you say you don't care, you still like it. The facts were wrong, the evidence lacking and the reasoning was comedic. Bottom line, mate, it's if we can't trust you to check out a video or to apologize when confronted with the facts, how can we trust you to tell us the truth about atheism, Darwinism or anything else? I've never posted anything I was unsure of and then not apologized when wrong. But as an atheist, you lack a moral dimension about such things because you don't see the harm in it. It doesn't matter to you because it's a religion, and it deserves to be ridiculed. Last time we discussed atheism, I brought up this rationalization problem and shifting ethics that change to accommodate society. It shifts because it's not grounded in a firm and moral foundation.
 +0 / -3
cofty
cofty a year ago

Then, when caught, you say you don't care, you still like it. The facts were wrong, the evidence lacking and the reasoning was comedic.
I disagree. I believe every single fact in the video was spot on.
I am trying to discuss the facts by starting with the gold plates but you are still ignoring my questions. For the third time...
You made the following two points.
1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away.
2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.
Which is it?
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

All things considered, I think that, like the RCC, the LDS has actually made considerable progress (strange doctrines notwithstanding) since back in the day.
x
Lately, I think of them as the WTS's weirder but nicer older cousin.
And I say this as a completely nonreligious agnostic.

 
cofty
cofty a year ago

Its been 9 hours since I asked CS about the gold plates for the third time. I'll try again....
You made the following two points.
1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away.
2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.
Which is it?
By the way I see you have a Masonic symbol as an avatar. Interesting that the video explained the Masonic influence in your cult.
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a year ago

@ Cold Steel:
"But as an atheist, you lack a moral dimension about such things because you don't see the harm in it."
I haven't been following this thread but that statement caught my attention. It's a false, arrogant statement and an insult to atheists. In the moral dimension atheists are no more, no less moral than their theistic counterparts. Morality and ethics are to one extent or another intrinsic to human nature. Some have it, some don't, others have a small amount. It's something that has evolved in us as a social creature in other to get along with each others.
"I brought up this rationalization problem and shifting ethics that change to accommodate society. It shifts because it's not grounded in a firm and moral foundation."
Christians have done a lot of shifting throughout the past 2,000 years.
 
cofty
cofty a year ago

Cold Steel - You falsely accused me of making a hit-and-run attack on your cult. That was a big mistake. I intend to make a long, detailed and sustained attack on your cult.
I have been trying to engage you in a discussion about the facts presented in the video.
Specifically I would like to hear about why god took the gold plates away. You claimed that this was because if he had left them on earth it would have proved that Mormonism is true and, for some reason you didn't specify, this is a bad thing. Apparently god doesn't value healthy skepticism.
Then in the next sentence you claimed that god didn't leave the gold plates because it wouldn't prove anything if we still had them.
I have asked you 4 or 5 times over the last 24 hours to clear up this contradiction. You have been posting within the last hour.
I have lots and lots of questions about the facts presented in the video that seems to suggest the Mormon church is built on a web of lies and deceit. Thanks.
 +1 / -0
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a year ago


You made the following two points.
1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody. Therefore he took the plates away.
2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.
Which is it?
Even in your responses you are trite and you misrepresent the facts.
As stated previously, two-thirds of the plates were sealed (Isaiah 29:18-29), which means that no one -- not even Smith -- was permitted to view them. Also, the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't _ever_ provide anyone with proof of His work until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Why? Because you would then be obligated to accept it and comply to the Lord's will or be condemned for rejecting it. And apparently the Lord feels that this would violate your free agency.

But He left plenty of evidence for the Book of Mormon.






Your video also sought to impugn the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Perhaps you would like the entire story rather than the baseless misrepresentations on your video.





Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never. So hypothetically, even had Smith _produced_ the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that. And do you believe he would have been able to keep them? How about the man upon whose land Smith found them? Wouldn't he have claimed a right to them? “After all, ol' Joe Smith found them on my land! He only came up with that 'translation' after he found them on my property!“ The stone box was still intact on the hill as well as the large rock covering it. Some of the early saints reported seeing them for some time and said they were there for all to see. But of course anyone could have constructed such and no one would have been the wiser.


But then why didn't the Lord let the plates be inspected? I _suspect_ it was that He eventually wanted the two-thirds to be translated, and I _suspect_ they would have fallen out of the hands of the Church. Archeologists would have undoubtedly broken the seal, as well, in an attempt to read it's contents.

So there you have it. That's my answer. You'll have to ask the Lord for _His_ answer. But since we're asking questions, let me ask you this: If there were _actual PROOF_ that the Book of Mormon was what it claimed to be, you would be forced to reject atheism, right? Would you then cease to be a skeptic regarding it and dedicate yourself to its precepts?


If you want evidence, there is plenty. Back in the 90s, two guys with a video camera, a land rover, a compass and a Book of Mormon set out to follow Nephi's directions by going down the coast by the Red Sea, turning east when where the mountains meet the sea. Figuring 25 miles per day by camel, they found themselves following an ancient caravan route. As they approached the 75-mile mark, they had still not dead-ended in a wadi or found themselves blocked by a mountain, but then it was still seemingly still out in the middle of nowhere. At mile 73, things suddenly began to change. They came to a beautiful oasis with springs of water, grain and fruit and then, miraculously, a stone passage that led to a deep valley of granite that rose to 2,000 feet and, more significantly, a perennial river of water that flowed through the valley -- just as described by Nephi. They also found the remains of an ancient campsite which, according to the Saudi Ministry of Antiquities, dated back to 600 B.C., the year Nephi and his family found that same valley. The Book of Mormon said that Lehi built an “altar of stones,“ and they found two, one higher than the other. Additionally, other researchers found a tribal area called Nahom (NHM), which was an ancient burial site. It was exactly where Nephi said they buried one of their party named Ishmael. After that, the account says they travelled east, across one of the most treacherous deserts on Earth, the Empty Quarter. But when they reached the coast, they found a beautiful, lush, tropical area they called Bountiful, where they built their ship.


The valley, the “river of water“ and such a place as Bountiful were all considered the utmost fantasy. Yet if you begin at Nahom and travel due east, you reach a beautiful coastal area in the Dhofar region in Oman near Khor Rori (anciently, Sumhuam). Joseph Smith couldn't have known about this area because it wasn't discovered by Western explorer James Theodore Bent until 1894 and really wasn't publicized until much later. This means that no one in 1830 could have incorporated it into the text. This region has bird life, honeybees, trees, rocks rich in iron ore, grain, fruit, several protected harbor areas where a ship could be built in safety, water, several mountains and an area with cliffs overlooking the sea. There also were workers who could have been employed too help build ships. It's also an area where frankincense was shipped from the east. There are, according to our scholars, more than 170 points where Joseph Smith could have been wrong, yet he was not wrong in one of them. Only someone who had been there anciently could have written it.



 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago
Cold Steel, please don't make me feel compelled to revise my opinion of the LDS.
 
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity a year ago
Mormons have crazy beliefs about the past. But they don't have crazy ideas about the future, not like the JWs. Pick your poison.
 
cofty
cofty a year ago

they don't have crazy ideas about the future
Yes they do.
They are going to be gods ruling over their own planets.
 +1 / -0
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity a year ago
People have to have something to believe in!
 
cofty
cofty a year ago

Why?
Isn't reality satisfying enough?
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.
the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.
don't miss the section from 8:50.



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Contributing factor to Roman Catholics converting to JW
by NeverKnew 3 years ago 13 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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NeverKnew
NeverKnew 3 years ago

My JW friend once asked that if churches were so great why did so many Roman Catholics convert to his religion. Now I have some semblance of an answer!
I spoke with a professor who definitely had some familiarity with the WTS. I learned later that one student he keeps in touch with is an ex-jw whose wife is still a jw.
There were two things in our conversation that I wanted to share ....
1. He spoke of a disproportionate number of cult leaders being once affiliated with the Presbyterian church and noted that CTR was raised in a Presbyterian household and Joseph Smith's (Mormons) family were inactive but registered members of a Presbyterian congregation. He apologized on behalf of the Presbyterian Church. *sigh*
2. Generally, Roman Catholics gravitate towards JWism and Baptists gravitate towards Mormonism. He attributed one dynamic to the Baptist's being taught to respect the "experience" of faith and the other dynamic to the Roman Catholic's being taught to respect doctrines of faith. I thought this was interesting.

Is this common knowledge?
 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 3 years ago

NEVER KNEW:
I was a Catholic who converted to the JWs partly because I despised a clergy class and the Witnesses claimed they didn't have one. In time I found out that was a big fat lie and that they have a plain-clothes clergy with all their titles. They even claim ecclesiastical privilege in courts of law.
I also was interested in end-time prophecy and the JWs claimed they had the "answers".
Of course I would never have joined the JWs if I knew the truth. Too bad the internet wasn't around then. I could have saved myself a lot of aggravation and wasted time!
 
carla
carla 3 years ago

I think many Catholics join because the wt is set up almost exactly like the Catholic church. Somewhere there is a handy visual of this but I can't remember where. Goes something like this- Catholics have Rome & Pope- jw's have GB & NY Catholics have their Cardinals ..-- jw's have Co's etc.. Catholics have priests-- jw's have elders Catholics require confessing of sins to priest-- jw's require confessing of sins to elders and so on.......
 
cantleave
cantleave 3 years ago

What I can't understand is why ex-witnesses would become Catholic or even worse Mormon.
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 3 years ago

Longhairedgal:
"Plain-clothed clergy" - now THAT made me laugh!
Cantleave:
I have to imagine the reverse is true. If you've come to believe in a doctrinal faith, you stick with that which is comfortable. Just my guess.
Carla:
If you ever find the handy visual, I'd love to see it!
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

The WTS offers a refuge from oppressive regimes. It still has the vestiges of its origins, an anti-establishment establishment. Ironic, isn't it, that the confessions, the autocracy, the oppression is worse with the WTS?
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 years ago

The RCC is fundamentally heirarchal.
A disenfranchised ex-Catholic finds a familiar environment.
 
juanvazquez88
juanvazquez88 3 years ago

Im a roman catholic. There is a motto that claims "ignorant catholic, future protestant" in the sense of ignorance about the real catholic doctrine. There are a lot of called themselves "catholics" whom know nothing about his religion, just moves his bodies to the sunday mass without know nothing about it. This are the "catholics" whom easily succumbs to other religions. In my particular case, i was born in a catholic family, baptized and raised in the catholic faith. However, i pass to a atheist fase and rebeldy abouth all religions, i study philosophy and psychoanalysis and they drive me much away from them. Then i found myself studying the letters of the church´s fathers, catholic apologetics, the entire bible, history of the catholic church with the only purpouse of give me the reason of the falsehood of it. But the reason found me and made me say: "i knew nothing about my religion!!" Faith and reason can work together...
Why a roman catholic is in a jw forum?? because my wife is a jw, expelled because of our marriage, barely talks with my fathers-in-law and only because we waiting a child in one month, and i want to understand this sect to help my wife. I began reading his publications, receaving jw in my house to debate with them (never back), and i found crisis of concience, cautives of a concept, times of the gentiles, and all the literature of its begginings (must of all unknow to my wife), and a lot of forums about ex-jw trying to help other to leave the organization...Im just waiting the right time to tell my wife about ttatt...She´s still in the fase of : "i deserved the expell because i marry you, but i love you su much"
The peace of the Lord be with all of you
 
Mum
Mum 3 years ago

juanvazquez, welcome to the forum.
I read a book once by Barbara Grizutti Harrison, who was brought up as a JW after her family left the Roman Catholic Church. She left the JW religion as a young adult. The title of rhe book is Visions of Glory: A History and a Memory of the Jehovah's Witnesses. She had a Jewish friend named Arnold who would defend her and even hold her hand when she refused to salute the flag or stand for the national anthem. There's a chapter in the book called "God Can't Kill Arnold."
Be supportive of your wife, but find ways to make her question the bizarre beliefs she has been taught. This can go a long way in getting her to open her mind to other ideas. But don't expect anything to happen too quickly. Overcoming the brainwashing takes a lot of time.
 
GromitSK
GromitSK 3 years ago

As a former RC and JW my observation would be that Catholics tend to respect the Bible as an authority (as well as the church). I certainly didn't have sufficient knowledge or skill to counter the JW arguments I was presented with, and neither did my parish priest, who wasn't really that interested tbh. As LongHairedGal said, they seemed to have all the answers.
I suppose many Catholics would just give up arguing and revert to trusting in mother church, unfortunately I didn't. I wish I had.
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 3 years ago

GromitSK and Juan:
You might agree that there is an inherent mistrust across all churches for people who rail against other denominations. It's considered inappropriate and disrespectful. I'm blown away when I read JW material that speaks condescendingly about other Christians. That's foreign to me.
Grom, I suspect we'd be more educated on defending our denominational affiliations if we were trained like the JWs to do so. But then... I see where arrogance and hatred towards others would easily creep in. "Love" at this point would be lip service and we'd be loving only those who think like us.
Most non-JWs are unaware of JW beliefs and challenges. I really wish that weren't the case.

And also with you, Juan
 
juanvazquez88
juanvazquez88 3 years ago

thanks brothers, i will keep you informed...
 
GromitSK
GromitSK 3 years ago

Hi Neverknew
I guess in some ways I understand the JW tactic. Like many religions, their followers are convinced that they have the truth exclusively. The corollary of that is that everyone else is wrong or course :smile:
It would be more helpful if religions taught their followers the analytical skills required to decide their religious opinions for themselves but I guess that would defeat their object.
 
marriedtoajw
marriedtoajw 3 years ago

I think I can hit the nail on the head on this and feel qualified as I was raised in a nominal Catholic home, married to a jw, I have a bunch of Catholic relatives of which a small few converted to the JW's. Most Catholics, even nominal ones, are use to structure, organization, authority and have a high regard of scripture, even if they don't know it very well. Catholics, in my experience, respect scripture so much that they dare not try to interpret it for themselves and can't understand why others, protestants, think they can and get it right. So because JW's are trained in prostelitizing, a Catholic will more than likely be ill equipped to defend their faith when attacked. When JW's present arguments that the Catholic can not refute scritpurally, they get angry at Clergy for not aggressively equipping them with so much on the line, enternal salvation. Catholics, just like most people I think, have a hard time blaming themselves for their spiritual formation. After all, The Church offers much in the way of education to equip, but Catholics are not forced to educate themselves or monitored in any way to do so. It takes a lot of time and study to be able to defend ones faith when attacked and the lack of Church control over the individual Catholic is condusive to JW's taking advantage.
 

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I've invited the Witnesses to my house
by maksym 5 years ago 19 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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maksym
maksym 5 years ago

Hello everyone,
I’m recent here and thought I would properly introduce myself. I have posted a few times but mostly I like to read because I gather good insight into reaching the hearts of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Here is a little about me. The short of it is I was born into a large family of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Both my parents are alive but are not attending. My grandparents have died and passed on at death as a Jehovahs Witness. At present my brother and some family that are uncles and cousins are still deeply deceived. Out of all my immediate family only my brother is currently a participant in the cult. I was a member of the Watchtower religion for about 40 years until doubts starting to creep in. Reading the Gospels alone gave me a new understanding and this led to a path into religious studies. After several years I came across the Eastern Orthodox Church and fell in love with it. This is to also say that I came to know Christ also in a more profound way than before. Currently I am studying an Liberty University. My majors are Psychology and a minor in historical Christianity.
My devotion to my church then led me to have an impact on my daughter. When she left home at 19 to move closer to me, she made the decision to leave the Watchtower religion. I also believe that my love of Christ and my dedication to Orthodoxy created a stir in my sister. She was just recently baptised into the Roman Catholic Church this last Holy Saturday before Easter. Both of them were JW born-ins, as they say. Glory be to God and the Holy Spirit for using me to help others.
I have recently told my parents that I’m Orthodox Christian and it went well. They had a few questions. I don’t mean to steer them to my church but only to plant seeds of Christ in them so they may be guided as they see fit. I think anything is practically better than being inactive and just staying home not doing anything. I pray that one day they will understand the deeper things of the Bible and the real Gospel.
Anyway, I don’t take credit for these advances of Christ but only that the Holy Spirit will work through me and change the heart of people blinded by Satan’s Organisation (Watchtower Corporations), which leads me to the present.
I am an American currently living in Melbourne Australia. Yesterday the JW’s were on the sidewalk next to the bus stop. There were three of them and they had a table with books and Bibles on it. A long conversation ensued and I seemed to create quite a stir in them. My questions were thought provoking. Many times they did not have an answer. One woman got nervous and starting feel the pressure of me. Mind you, I remained calm and was not attacking them nor did I lead on that I was a former member. I used non JW code words when talking about the Bible. They seemed inept at getting to any scripture to try and refute me. They were presenting the, “What does the Bible Really Teach” book, and the NWT Bible.
My attack came from the approach of them being a modern day religion and they were no different than the Mormons, Seventh day Adventist, or Church of Scientology.
Here is some questions that stumped them and they could not answer without wiggling into another topic.
“If the year is 1800 where would you go this coming Sunday to worship God?”
“There are 30 000 different Christian denominations and counting. What makes yours the correct one?”
“Everyone has different interpretations of the Bible. What makes yours correct?”
They answered that they take the Bible in context and that they let the Bible speak and interpret itself. I then replied, “If the Bible can interpret itself, why are you printing other books to understand the Bible. All churches should just print Bibles and hand them out. If the Bible interprets itself, why do people misinterpret it?” No answer.
The one lady JW said, “We follow the first century church only”. I replied, “ That is a subjective statement. Every other church says the same thing.” I then added, “ if this is true then your Bible was compiled by heretics that lived after that.” Again no answer.
I then told them about Matthew 16:18 and said I believe the Church did not corrupt itself but throughout the centuries people just decided to believe other things and start another religion over and over.
I then said, “How do you know that your church is not corrupt now?” They snickered but could not answer again.
This went on for about an hour and was a very respectable dialogue. My girlfriend was with me at the time and she placed a small card in front of the one woman that just contained the information to an invite to our church. I could clearly see the woman pushing it back and we took it. Their comfort level was seriously inflicted. It was as if they thought it might be a demonised piece of paper.
They said they would like to talk with me more and I gave them my house address so they could come by. I don’t intend to have them start a study with me but I would like to have another chance to preach to them how wrong they are and how damaging the religion they are in.
Our topics varied greatly from Russell to the Millerites to Mormonism, the Soul, hellfire, and God’s kingdom. As usual they squirmed from topic to topic.
I really nailed the one guy on Eccles. 9: 5 that they use for teaching about the soul. I asked him, while pointing to a building in the distance if he was conscience of what was going on in there. He said, “no”. I then said that is the way the context reads in that verse. The dead are not conscience of anything on earth because they are in Hades (at the time of the writing). He was shocked. He did not have a comeback. And I said they have no reward either, meaning they do not gain no more on earth.
I thought about talking on the subject of mind control. Steve Hassan says talk about another group then relate it to them. For example I could talk about how Scientology is a mind control program and then ask if they know if they are being mind controlled. That might be too direct but I think you get the idea.
Would like to have some questions to ask them. Something subtle and thought provoking so they don’t feel attacked but I want to leave them thinking when it’s over, if you know what I mean. I know they are under mind control so I thought perhaps a few Hassan style approach might work, but anything will give me fuel for thought.
Give me some good questions. They are coming soon I suspect. I’ll post the results in more detail for later if they actually show.

Thanks for your help
Maksym
 
sizemik
sizemik 5 years ago

Reading the Gospels alone gave me a new understanding
I have enjoyed a similar experience since leaving the cult . . . but still remain unaffiliated to any denomination.
I wouldn't worry about them labelling their visits a Bible Study . . . just so long as they don't hijack the visits to get you into a "book"
Steve Hassan says talk about another group then relate it to them.
I would be inclined to follow your original idea of drawing on the features of another cult . . . scientology would serve well as it is well known . . . just highlight those features which are similar to JW's . . . shunning, information control etc., and talk about the implications and how unchristian they appear. Take your time with relating it back to the JW's however . . . they may feel attacked and close off . . . they should be able to see the similarities themselves if you concentrate on them . . . just stay on those key points and ask for thier opinions . . . even be content to let them leave without the comparison being directly made to them . . . it will get them thinking.
If you've made any headway you'll soon tell . . . they probably won't be back. But the seed will be planted . . . only God will make it grow.
 
ABibleStudent
ABibleStudent 5 years ago

Hi maksim, good-luck with you visitors. I would ask them are if they consider themselves a cult or whether the WTBTS practices mind control? If they say no, then ask them how would you know? I would then have a copy of Steve Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and read excerpts to them about Steve Hassan's experience with the Moonies and the section "Four Components of Mind Control" in Chapter 4. They will either run away or start asking questions.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
ABibleStudent
 
JonathanH
JonathanH 5 years ago

I would try to get them to understand that they don't believe in the bible, they believe in the society. I think it was steve hassan that said members of bible based cults don't believe in their theology, they believe they are part of a chosen group. But any witness would tell you they believe in the bible.
You could ask something like.
So you believe your religion is the one true religion, and those that aren't part of your religion are part of false religion? (They would have to say yes, all of christendom and babylon the great is false religion)
So you believe that your doctrines are true and those of christendom are false correct? (They may give some squirrely answer, but over all they would have to say yes)
If next months Watchtower changed a doctrine that you believe to be true, would you abandon that doctrine or abandon the Society?
If they abandon doctrine, then they don't believe in the bible. They believe in the watchtower.
If they abandon the society, the they are wicked apostates. Many have abandoned the society of changed doctrine.

It's a logical flow of questions that leaves them in a bind. They have to either abandon scripture and admit that they don't trust the bible, or show a lack of faith in the "Faithful and discreet slave". Cognitive dissonance may set in, but the point will be made.
 
ixthis
ixthis 5 years ago

Beautiful post Maskym!
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 5 years ago

Nice experience.

I am an American currently living in Melbourne Australia. Yesterday the JW’s were on the sidewalk next to the bus stop. There were three of them and they had a table with books and Bibles on it. A long conversation ensued and I seemed to create quite a stir in them.
Is this a new way of preaching? I noticed that over the last few months they have been setting up a literature table on the main street in front of my old kingdom hall in Sydney. They even have a professional footpath banner.
 
sizemik
sizemik 5 years ago

I would ask them are if they consider themselves a cult or whether the WTBTS practices mind control?
No disrespect to ABibleStudent . . . but if you ask the average JW that . . . you will get absolutely nowhere.
Similarly, Any suggestion that they believe in the WT and not the Bible, will be percieved as an attack on thier faith (which it is) and will put up the defenses.
You need to be more subtle than that if you truly wish to get through. You seem to be on the right track in your opening post. Hassans suggestions are valid and worth persuing. But even then, a high degree of discretion and subtlety is needed including a genuine enquiring manner. If this doesn't work, a more full "in the face" approach won't either. Most of the work will be done in their own mind after they leave.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 5 years ago

Congratulations on how far you got with them.

I then said, “How do you know that your church is not corrupt now?” They snickered but could not answer again.

They gave you a signal that they were in trouble and wanted another subject. Never give them one. If you have them squirming, you have the right subject. Don't give them an easy way out ......... ever. If you have an audience .... all the better.

Don't try to convert them to beliefs they have been schooled to hate. Take baby steps. Ask them to support faulty beliefs they already hold.

Good luck
Chris
 
steve2
steve2 5 years ago

Your parents show by their responses that their hearts are no longer in the organization; although whether they are willing to move their feet completely out of the knigdom hall is another matter!  It's marvellous that they can listen to you. I don't think this direct approach will be productive with the more committed JWs, though. But you are genuinely fortunate in that your parents ability to hear you is very promising indeed.
 
maksym
maksym 5 years ago

Thanks for the suggestions.

@jwfacts,
I noticed that they had a professional banner in front as well. The whole thing really looked done up. I wonder also if this is normal here in Australia. I have not seen to much of that back in the United States.
What next....will they set up island booths in the middle of the shopping malls?

I think the Steve Hassan approach is a pretty good route. I just don't have the book.
 
RADHESYAM
RADHESYAM 5 years ago

I think the booktable is a growing approach
they cant do door to door so easily now - people are becoming more litigious especially here in australia where lawsuits far outnumber the US

its also a less confrontational approach and it allows them to "proclaim the name of Jehovah" using their big banners etc - which they obviously cant do at doors.
Remember, for witnesses (just as with Hare Krishnas) its all about getting Gods name to the people.
 
LouBelle
LouBelle 5 years ago

I would say, let them have their say, they like to talk. After they have finished start asking questions, just like you did at the stand. They will have their bibles, you will have yours and you can discuss the bible. Whenever they want to go back to books and other sources, keep reminding them that we should follow Christs'word and take instruction from his word.
 
Tuesday
Tuesday 5 years ago

Well if you're looking for questions to ask JWs that won't shut them down immediately that they can't help but try and answer you can always try...
www.youtube.com/timkilgore
shameless plug I know...
 
maksym
maksym 5 years ago

Oh yeah,
Tim Kilgore you are one of my heros.
I love your videos. I have watched heaps of them. Thanks for the input.
You're welcome to plug here.
 
RagingBull
RagingBull 5 years ago

Ask about Mexico prior to the 1990s. The Witnesses were asked by the GB to NOT carry their Bibles along, but to still pass out the Watchtower. If they adhere to 1st Centrury Christians' practices of unshakable faith, ...why shy away form using the BIBLE at all? Especially since it was NOT against the Law at the time. Never mind, that may be too deep.
Ask if a person joins the religion...are they free to leave at anytime? What are the consequences if any?
 
ixthis
ixthis 5 years ago

I asked them a question that really made them uncomofortable, I said, "have you ever experienced a miracle"
 
cantleave
cantleave 5 years ago

Don Cameron focuses on what they were teaching prior to their self proclaimed appointment by Christ. What specific teachings of the Bible Student prior to 1919 are still being taught today?
Prior to 1919 they were also teaching that Jesus had returned in 1879. They were expecting him to bring an end to the Kings of the Earth in 1914. Would Jesus have chosen a Group of people who were making so many false claims about him and his Kingship?
 
Palimpsest
Palimpsest 5 years ago

I think the Steve Hassan approach is a pretty good route. I just don't have the book.
It would be interesting to see what, if anything, he'd have to say about Liberty U. Most anti-cult writers aren't exactly fans.
 
maksym
maksym 5 years ago

I just had a thought. Even though I filled out a form and had a situation that I stumbled on to bring the witnesses to my house, I'm wondering if that actual idea is good for others. I'm referring to requesting a visit.

Has anyone ever tried calling the local congregation and asked for a visit just to preach to them. If you can remain anonymous then I think maybe getting someone out may be a possibility. At the least they would have some things to think about.
We need good apostates to break the mind control. Those that are good at rhetoric and finding fallacies and know the history, are prone to work into the minds of the JW's.
 
JunkYardDog
JunkYardDog 5 years ago

Nice work; I would stick to questions that make them uncomfortable. and not let them change the subject. It's great to embarress them for know knowing the topic/ or facts about wts history. stick to your strong points and don't let them change subjects. If you always go to this bus stop? stop and talk to them every time. DO NOT TALK THE TRINITY... TALK WTS FALSE TEACHINGS. IT'S EASY WORK LIKE TAKING CANDY fROM A BABY. I get the feeling they will not want to talk with you at the bus stop or come to your home. I like to taql;k about eating the bread and wine jn:6:49- 70 . the KEY word in them verses is "ANYONE MAY EAT AND LIVE". have fun
 

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Not Breaking News: Mormons quit church in mass resignation ceremony, Are Jehovah's Witnesses Next?
by Scott77 4 years ago 22 Replies latest 4 years ago   social current
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Scott77
Scott77 4 years ago

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-utah-mormonsbre86000n-20120630,0,5340553.story
Mormons quit church in mass resignation ceremony
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Chelsea Bair reads a declaration of independence from Mormonism during a mass resignation of Mormons from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake Cit ( JEFFREY D. ALLRED, REUTERS / June 30 , 2012 )
 
◦RELATED
◦Alex Willardson shows his letter during a mass resignation of Mormons from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake City
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Jennifer Dobner Reuters
8:47 p.m. CDT , June 30, 2012
SALT LAKE CITY (Reuters) - A group of about 150 Mormons quit their church in a mass resignation ceremony in Salt Lake City on Saturday in a rare display of defiance ending decades of disagreement for some over issues ranging from polygamy to gay marriage.
Participants from Utah, Arizona, Idaho and elsewhere gathered in a public park to sign a "Declaration of Independence from Mormonism."
"This feels awesome," said Alison Lucas, from West Jordan, Utah, who took part in the rally amid soaring temperatures. "I don't know if I would have had the courage except in a group."
The Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is known for its culture of obedience, and the mass ceremony was a seldom-seen act of collective revolt.
After gathering in the park, participants hiked a half-mile up nearby Ensign Peak, scaled in 1847 by church President Brigham Young to survey the spot where his Latter-day Saints would build a city.
At the top, those gathered gave three loud shouts of "Freedom," cheered, clapped and hugged.
"It's been a hard journey and this is a symbolic end," said event organizer Zilpha Larsen, of Lehi, Utah. "I just hope that it boosts people up and helps them feel more comfortable in their decision."
The church bills itself as the one "true" Christian faith, and its theology promises families eternal relationships among those who remain faithful, sealing those gifts through special religious rites.
Among the reasons cited by those resigning are the church's political activism against gay marriage and doctrinal teachings that conflict with scientific findings or are perceived as racist or sexist.
Others cite inconsistencies in the Mormons' explanation of its own history, including the practice of polygamy. The church renounced plural marriage over a century ago as Utah was seeking statehood.
Asked about the resignations, a church spokesman said the church loves and respects each member.
"People make their own decisions about the direction they will follow in life," spokesman Michael Purdy said in an email. "While there are very few who take this action, it is sad to see someone choose to leave. We wish them well."
The most recent figures show the Mormon church claims 14.4 million members worldwide. The number of those resigning from the church are not publicly reported.
Among prominent Mormons is Mitt Romney, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee facing off against President Barack Obama in November. Should he win office, Romney would be the first Mormon elected to the White House.
'WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL'
Some leaving the church Saturday did so with trepidation, as Mormon culture often stigmatizes those who fall away, leaving some without social or business connections.
"It's hard, so we have to be very careful," said Robin Hansen, a participant who said she quit over a "culture of abuse" which she believes is cultivated by church teachings promoting obedience.
Hansen said her husband had not joined her in leaving the faith because he works in a church-related business and could lose his job if he doesn't maintain his membership.
To resign from the church, Mormons must submit a formal letter asking their names be removed from church rolls, a church instructional handbook for lay leaders published on the Internet in 2010 shows.
On Saturday, participants filled a basket with their letters for mailing by Larsen, who split with the church over doubts about the veracity of a translation of ancient Egyptian writings which are included in sacred Mormon texts.
A sixth-generation Mormon, Kris Fielding, 35, traveled from Phoenix for the resignation event in part to represent those who do not yet have the courage to do so, he said, including his wife, who worries about reaction from their families.
Married in a Mormon temple, Fielding said the couples shared disaffection from their faith is tied in part to their local church leader's response to questions Fielding had about polyandry and polygamy - taking multiple husbands and wives - in the early church.
"I went to him looking for a faithful perspective. He called my wife and told her she needed to find a new husband," Fielding said.
He said he felt relief after his decision.
"The monkey's off the back ... I don't feel like I have to explain myself or the positions of the church anymore."
(Editing by Tim Gaynor and Doina Chiacu)
 
Scott77
Scott77 4 years ago

Just curious, can we expect similar events among Jehovah's Witnesses taking place soon?

Scott77
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 4 years ago

Asked about the resignations, a church spokesman said the church loves and respects each member.
"People make their own decisions about the direction they will follow in life," spokesman Michael Purdy said in an email. "While there are very few who take this action, it is sad to see someone choose to leave. We wish them well.".....'WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL'
Some leaving the church Saturday did so with trepidation, as Mormon culture often stigmatizes those who fall away, leaving some without social or business connections.
Sounds just like the PC crap the Watchtower spits out when the public learn of how they treat ex members
oz
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

The feeling of self-empowerment must have been amazing. Good for them taking back control of their own lives.
 
IsaacJ22
IsaacJ22 4 years ago

Maybe someone will organize an event like this for XJWs.
 
Joey Jo-Jo
Joey Jo-Jo 4 years ago

I wonder if this had anything to do with the 300 mormons thingy
 
Mickey mouse
Mickey mouse 4 years ago

Maybe someone will organize an event like this for XJWs.
The old cat herding analogy comes to mind.
 
Hermano
Hermano 4 years ago

Just a few quotes from the article. It could have just as well been written about Jehovah's Witnesses:

known for its culture of obedience, and the mass ceremony was a seldom-seen act of collective revolt.
bills itself as the one "true" Christian faith, and its theology promises families eternal relationships among those who remain faithful
The number of those resigning from the church are not publicly reported.
culture often stigmatizes those who fall away, leaving some without social or business connections.
I don't see why this couldn't happen among Jehovah's Witnesses. They are no more inmune to inner revolt than any other high control group.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

Wow. Good for them. Between the upcoming 100 year anniversary of Gods Imaginary Kingdom, and with a few more 'Sparklock' events where the R&F think that the society's new media is an apostate plot, I could see something like this.
I PRAY for something like this to happen!
 
belbab
belbab 4 years ago

It could happen with JWs.
It could be a mass exodus on line. On a certain date all witnesses who want to leave send an email to their congregations and Watchtower headquarters.
Belbab
 
DT
DT 4 years ago

A problem that I see is that there are fewer Witnesses than Mormons and they are more spread out through the country. It would be harder to organize a mass resignation like that. It isn't impossible, but it could involve a lot of expensive travel.
A petition might work where people sign it online and provide their congregation. Then it could be printed out and delivered to the headquarters in a way that would hopefully capture some media attention.
It would be a real headache for the headquarters to process the petition and alert all the congregations. If they chose not to, it could be argued that it is still a valid resignation. If they tried to take any action against one of these people later on, it could be viewed as harassing a nonmember and subject them to lawsuits.
 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 4 years ago

SCOTT77:
Unfortunately, I don't see this happening with the JWs for a couple of reasons. For one, JWs are spread out as opposed to the Mormons who are in a general geographic area. Secondly (and some may disagree), the Mormons seem better educated to me than the JWs. They may have some strange traditions but they seem to be more of a thinking type of people than JWs. So, if people leave the JWs it will be a few here and there and their reasons for leaving (unless they do a public DA) will be HIDDEN from everybody.
It is also interesting to see some parallels or similarities between the Mormons and the JWs, especially with respect to somebody leaving and losing business contacts. You better believe some JW who disassociates will LOSE his business contacts in the religion. They'd pull the rug out from under somebody in a New York minute just for spite!
 
Giordano
Giordano 4 years ago

It's already been happening. The retention rate among JW born-ins is pathedic, and shunning creates an on going loss of good will at the public level. While one witness can deliever a message, in field service, to a hundred people in the course of a year.......... with no visible effect those same 100 people learning directly from a shunned ex witness or a friend of a friend, relative, etc. does create a lingering negative reaction.
 
Momma-Tossed-Me
Momma-Tossed-Me 4 years ago

I think this is a great idea to promote public awareness about the Watchtower Borg. Various small time political groups do things like this all the time to promote themselves. Why, we, the Ex-Dub club should do the same.
It probably would be easy to gather 100-150 people or so infront of the world headquarters and do a little pre-amping of the event to the news media on the coat tails of the court case ruling and this Morman thing.
 
Scott77
Scott77 4 years ago

bttt
 
jemba
jemba 4 years ago

bttt
 
sf
sf 4 years ago

Wow. What a freakin' treat.  And right as I was about to hit the hay.
Ha! Wonder what Roms comments might be. If he has any.

"culture of abuse"
"It's been a hard journey and this is a symbolic end,"
Ah, but it is only the Beginning. LITERALLY!
 act of collective revolt  LOVE IT!
Hello people. LET THESE FOLKS BE AN INSPIRATION FOR YOU. YOU TOO CAN COLLECTIVELY RE-VOLT. RE-CHARGE YOUR LIVES AND THAT OF YOUR CHILDREN. PURE ENERGY IS NEEDED NOW.
Think about it: 150 active, QUESTIONING, THINKING, MORAL JWS (shhhhh you Know who...it's quite possible there are, in fact, that many) doing exactly the same thing, yet the Declaration needs re-vision.
Seriously, WHY DON'T YOU? What is it EXACTLY you are waiting for? What is it exactly that you F.E.A.R.? And I want answrs this time. You jws reading this forum ON A DAILY BASIS (we've gone over this years ago), seem to think my questions are rhetorical when asked here. I've seldomed gotten any replies to them from you. Wanna know a something very interesting? I'm gonna tell you anyway:
I SELDOM GOT MY QUESTIONS ANSWERED WHEN I, TOO, WAS A JW. IT DROVE MY MOM NUTS. IT DROVE THE ELDERS NUTS. IT DROVE ME FUCKING NUTS!!!
BWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, so, pardon me while I burst into flames....of laughter....lololololol
So, please, I seriously want jws to answer my questions above.
Thank you and goodnight.
SWEET DREAMS TO ALL MY MORMON WARRIORS!!!!
God, that sure was a treat.
sKally
 
sf
sf 4 years ago


It probably would be easy to gather 100-150 people or so infront of the world headquarters and do a little pre-amping of the event to the news media on the coat tails of the court case ruling and this Morman thing.
YES!
And I didn't even SEE that post when I posted.
Thanks Momma!
 
Momma-Tossed-Me
Momma-Tossed-Me 4 years ago

You bet sf, I would make an effort to be there if we could get it together.

MTM
 
sf
sf 4 years ago

As would I.
It happened with silent lambs, it can happen again.
Only this time, only truth prevails.
sKally
 

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Not Breaking News: Mormons quit church in mass resignation ceremony, Are Jehovah's Witnesses Next?
by Scott77 4 years ago 22 Replies latest 4 years ago   social current
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Scott77
Scott77 4 years ago


 It is also interesting to see some parallels or similarities between the Mormons and the JWs, especially with respect to somebody leaving and losing business contacts. You better believe some JW who disassociates will LOSE his business contacts in the religion. They'd pull the rug out from under somebody in a New York minute just for spite!
 LongHairGal
hi LongHairGal,
About lose of buness contact, that is a legitimate concern however, many JWs are not that rich compared to Mormons.

Scott77
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 4 years ago

Couldn't help njoticing these sentences,
"Participants from Utah, Arizona, Idaho and elsewhere gathered in a public park to sign a "Declaration of Independence from Mormonism."
"This feels awesome," said Alison Lucas, from West Jordan, Utah, who took part in the rally amid soaring temperatures. "I don't know if I would have had the courage except in a group."
Independence - but only as long as you're part of a group............ "I need to be in a group to be independent" .............
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 4 years ago

The Mormon church is having a crisis. More and more are leaving, as the church ups it's media presence so those who leave are matching it ( the ' I am a Mormon' adverts have been met with 'I am an ex-Mormon' videos.) The institutional and conservative nature of the church means it is cracking like a warming ice sheet with sections calving off while the overall depth of belief is thinned. The recent onslaught of intelligent, witty atheism has caught the church in a broadside as more intelligent , educated born in members are open to progressive and well presented knowledge. The LDS church will collapse far quicker than the JW one which is simply ,slowly strangling itself in pointlessness. IMO.
 

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Topic Summary
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-utah-mormonsbre86000n-20120630,0,5340553.story.
mormons quit church in mass resignation ceremonyshare112chelsea bair reads a declaration of independence from mormonism during a mass resignation of mormons from the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in salt lake cit (jeffrey d. allred, reuters / june 30, 2012).
relatedalex willardson shows his letter during a mass resignation of mormons from the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in salt lake city.



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by Greybeard 3 months ago



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Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church
by designs 3 years ago 110 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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designs
designs 3 years ago

Quarterback Tim Tebow is scheduled to address the 11,000 member First Baptist Dallas congregation April 28th. First Baptist Dallas and its outspoken pastor Robert Jeffries in recent times have called Islam and Mormonism coming from the 'pits of hell' and you can't be 'saved being a Jew', although he clarified that being a Jew is not the same type of hereticalness as being a Mormon.....huh?. Pastor Jeffries called the election of Obama 'the rise of the Anti-Christ'. Citing also that the 'gay population' is 70% infected with the AIDS virus and of course that gays should not be allowed in the military.
Tim Tebow is a much sought after speaker. Last year he spoke to the 30,000 worshippers at a Easter Service in Texas.
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Could you put Quarterback in quote marks, please?
He's more of a "personality" than an actual football player now. He's out to promote the brand known as Tim Tebow. And of course he'll go to the places that accept him the most, which happen to be large religious groups that spew hate and intolerance. If Tim Tebow thought he could gain influence and popularity by addressing the Westboro Baptist Church he'd do it.
 
glenster
glenster 3 years ago

I'm not up on all the latest in sports, celebrities, and Tim Tebow. Is he more
conservative or liberal? I know he was also on SNL, which is liberal.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Come on guys let's not feel the need to label everything liberal/conservative. First Baptist is a Baptist church and they believe what they believe according to their doctrine. They don't beat up gays or muslims. They don't fire bomb abortion clinics. They have every right to believe what they believe and preach what they want to preach.
We have every opportunity to ignore, rebut, or agree. I hate it when people put so much energy into other people's beliefs. There are enough people actually doing screwed up stuff. Save your energy for them.
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

First Baptist is a Baptist church and they believe what they believe according to their doctrine. They don't beat up gays or muslims. They don't fire bomb abortion clinics. They have every right to believe what they believe and preach what they want to preach.

Lets just replace the word "baptist" with WTS...do you still have the same tolerance for what they preach? Or do you see it as harmful..and that it does effect peoples lives in a negative way?
Why do people believe tolerance of ignorant, hate filled beliefs should apply to other religions, but not the WTS?
JW's don't beat up gays or muslims, they don't fire bomb abortion clinics, therefore, they have EVERY right to believe what they believe. Gees guys. don't be so intolerant...
 
glenster
glenster 3 years ago

"let's not feel the need to label everything liberal/conservative"
Abrahmic religions can be orthodox, conservative, liberal, progressive, re-
form, even humanist, and may have conservative or liberal stances on certain
issues, such as homosexuality and ecumenicism/tolerance of others (Jews, etc.).
The bigger tension in Christianity today isn't denominational but liberal or
conservative. Jeffries sounds conservative. I don't know what Tebow is on
those issues.
 
glenster
glenster 3 years ago

(sorry for double post accident)
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Yes, I have the same tolerance for the WTBS beliefs. I will say their wrong, but unless they start stoning apostates they have a right to meet, believe, and preach what ever they want.
Everyone has the right to believe what they want to... no man has a right to tell someone else what to believe or say. Obviously we draw a line at actions to protect the rights of others.
In the U.S. we have a constitution protecting people's right to freedom, speech, and religion. There is no amendment protecting my feelings which is what is the real case going on here.
Would the world be a better place if people didn't believe this kind of crud, sure. But, that wouldn't be a free society now would it? Which one do you want? Freedom or Freedom from hurt feelings?
So back to OP the fact that Tim Tebow is speaking at First Baptist is not news. That is like saying Michael Moore is speaking at UAW rally. Now if Michael Moore was speaking at FBC tommorrow and Tebow was speaking at UAW rally, that might provoke thought and worthwhile conversation.
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

So you are tolerant of shunning? Good to hear. Don't ever complain about it then...since it's their right to teach their followers to do this. And do the ones being shunned have the right not to be shunned? Who's rights take precedence here?
I agree people have the right to believe and say what they like. The problem comes when what is being said and preached affects peoples lives. And that is what happens with religious belief. One way or another it effects other peoples lives, not just their own. By creating prejudice against other people who do not believe as they do. Or bigotry against people because of their self righteous ignorance.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

That happens with far more than just religious beliefs, Still. Political, national, heirarchal, racial, etc, etc. Even some atheists have and/or create prejudice against people of religion/faith.

I do agree that people should speak against that which is causing harm. Better yet, that people would lead by example and DO better than the people they are speaking against though.
Designs, when I first read the thread, I thought you meant Tim Tebow was speaking AGAINST those things :wink:

Peace,
tammy
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

Even some atheists have and/or create prejudice against people of religion/faith.
I'm not sure that is true. I think some people of faith, believe atheists are doing that, when it's not the people necessarily, but the belief. Sometimes believers are unable to separate the two because they cannot separate the belief from who they are. So some take it personally.
Lets face it...people of faith often create prejudice against other people of faith if it doesn't agree with theirs. Atheists do not generally single out a faith to be opposed to. They are all the same to them. So it isn't about individual people. It's about what they teach and do.
And even if some atheists did do that...so what? They do not represent all atheists like religion represents its followers. Only themselves. Other atheists are free to accept or dismiss an idea based on it's merits. Not because some church or religious leader tells them what to believe and think and what they should or shouldn't view as morally right or wrong...for example homosexuality or abortion or contraception or female mutilation.
I do not think that people who identify as Christians or Muslims, etc are bad. But I do think many of their religious beliefs are. Big difference.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago


I'm not sure that is true. I think some people of faith, believe atheists are doing that, when it's not the people necessarily, but the belief. Sometimes believers are unable to separate the two because they cannot separate the belief from who they are. So some take it

personally.
Comments labelling people of faith/religion being ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, afraid, deluded, etc... that they should not hold certain positions in science or law... this is what I am speaking of, and I have seen this. It is an umbrella bias, based on a person's personal faith or religion, and without taking into consideration their skills or education. I think (hope) it is a small minority, but minorities such as this can also grow, and their bias and prejudice then grows with them.
Lets face it...people of faith often create prejudice against other people of faith if it doesn't agree with theirs.
Some do, agreed.
Atheists do not generally single out a faith to be opposed to. They are all the same to them. So it isn't about individual people. It's about what they teach and do.
Yes, this is kind of my point. The prejudice is against an entire group of people, regardless of what the faith is, or what is taught. That is a bias against a group of people for their personal faith or religion, without even knowing their beliefs; and having nothing to do with the person themselves and how they live their lives.
That prejudice can be talked down if a person takes the time to listen. But the prejudiced ideas are automatically there from the start.
And even if some atheists did do that...so what? They do not represent all atheists like religion represents its followers. Only themselves. Other atheists are free to accept of dismiss an idea based on it's merits. Not because some church or religious leader tells them what to believe and think and what they should or shouldn't view as morally right or wrong...for example homosexuality or abortion or contraception or female mutilation.
I never said they did represent all atheists. But flip that coin. There are how many religious persuasions out there? Some people of faith adhere to zero religious doctrines, creeds, leaders, etc. So a theist is also free to accept or dismiss an idea based on its merits and their personal belief. Not because some church or religious leader tells them what they should or should not think or do.
Again, this is an example of the bias. Grouping all people of faith/religion under one umbrella and making a statement that applies only to some of them.
I do not think that people who identify as Christians or Muslims, etc are bad. But I do think many of their religious beliefs are. Big difference.
I think many religious beliefs out there are harmful as well. But I that the prejudice against people of faith or religion that some atheists promote (see my first reply) is also harmful and can grow to be just as harmful as any other bias. As are political/national/racial/heirarchal/income/class divides and prejudices.

Peace,
tammy
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

The prejudice is against an entire group of people, regardless of what the faith is, or what is taught.
No...it IS about what they teach...you are still lumping belief in with the person. It IS about what is taught. I gave you an example of that with beliefs about homosexuality...the catholic church is actively opposing same sex marriage world wide.And then there is Female genital mutilation...Islam actively does this to their young women. And the religion itself is very prejudiced against womens rights. Those are just a few examples.

That is a bias against a group of people for their personal faith or religion, without even knowing their beliefs; and having nothing to do with the person themselves and how they live their lives.
Why do I need to know more about a religion to think it is not beneficial when at a glance you can see prejudice and bigotry in many of them. If they are teaching such dogma...they are not a religion I would wish to associate with. I am sure there are INDIVIDUALS within these religions that disagree with the practices and beliefs. But, they are still a part of the religion. And as such, get lumped in with the umbrella OF that religion. If they really disagreed, they would not be a part of it. Except of course with Islam, where they risk their lives speaking out against their religion.
Just as with shunning within the JW religion. I do know more about them now...but IF I had learn that this is how they behave at the beginning of my study with them...would I want to continue that study? Would you have? They hide that behaviour from their new studies because deep down they know it is WRONG and it would put people off studying with them. So in this instance. You have good people (and maybe some not so good) being conned by belief and faith in religion. Is that NOT delusional?
Having the opinion that blind faith in a god (any of the possible gods you would like to select) is delusional is not the same as having ones life threatened because one does not agree with or challenges the religious beliefs of their birth. (I am of course referring to Islam here, but Christianity has had the same history).
As much as people would like to convince themselves that they have their own personal faith...the minute they start to compare notes with others about their understandings of sacred texts...they are forming NEW religious beliefs. And there is ALWAYS someone who takes centre stage and is considered some sort of authority on what things mean and whether someone is right or wrong in THEIR understanding. That's when we have handed our minds over to another who CANNOT prove of disprove anything they are teaching when it comes to their belief.
People simply have to have faith. THAT IS A DANGEROUS THING. As history of faith and belief has already shown us. Thousands of religions are started with good intentions (some not), and they all morph into power structures after a while...with one or two people being the authority figure that they turn to for clarification about what their selected god wants or doesn't want. If THAT isn't delusional...what is?
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

Still, just to bring this back around to the point that I made to begin with:

Comments labelling people of faith/religion being ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, afraid, deluded, etc... that they should not hold certain positions in science or law... this is what I am speaking of, and I have seen this.
As well, some of your comments above regarding religions takes no consideration of the various sects springing up that are fundamentalist/intolerant/harmful... and while these might be the loudest; they are not necessarily in the majority. So that is why one needs to ask a person, rather than throw them under some blanket umbrella. Particularly your thoughts on Islam. But also your thoughts on belief in God also shows bias... that it has to be blind belief. As well as your thoughts on the idea that people cannot share their personal faith without bowing to a leader (other than Christ, in that faith)
Regardless, my point was made in the above quoted statment. If you want to look at that.
Peace,
tammy

 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

Particularly your thoughts on Islam...tec
Oh, don't take my thoughts on Islam, I would NEVER expect that tec...check for yourself. I'll help you out, you could start with this, here is a woman who suffered genitle mutilation as a child at the hands of Islamists. There are many people like her who have escaped that repressive religion. She has had her life threatened because she spoke out. And she is not unique.
But, you know, feel free also to believe that the Islamic religion is good apart from everything she says and that as an atheist I am just being biased against it.


&feature=endscreen
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

As well as your thoughts on the idea that people cannot share their personal faith without bowing to a leader (other than Christ, in that faith)
I have yet to see it. And I didn't say they 'bowed to a leader', those are YOUR words. I said, they always refer to someone who claims to have authority of some sort. Authority being....Special insight, knowledge, connection to the spirit realm or messages or understanding of their god and what he wants.
People love to have their ideas/beliefs confirmed. And they love to be able to ask someone who claims to know. Unfortunately, unlike scientific enquiry. There really is no debate, THAT person is ALWAYS right. Often they pretend to be discussing. But what is actually happening is that they are telling people that they KNOW what the truth is. So really, the so called 'discussion' is fake. It's a teaching session.
That's how many believers work. They want to tell you what god wants. NO religion or faith is different. They ALL claim to KNOW.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

If believers can hate the sin and love the sinner, why is it so hard for them to understand that a rational person can despise faith and love the faithful?
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Nicely worded cofty.
Tec- Tim was asked to speak to this congregation, and I am not certain of the topic, but it will no doubt be inline with the conservative values of the Church. Professional Football has had gay players going back to its beginnings but they hid it for the most part and only very recently has there been some legal protections and actual policy against discrimination. Sort of the last peg in the Civil Rights/Human Rights agenda.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

@Stillthinking- Yes I believe the WTBS and it's members have the right to shun who ever they want. Do you really think we can tell people who to be friends with as well?
Also, you can't tell me what I can and can not complain about, it's called Freedom of Speech. It's the same crap that you are doing when you speak out against the WTBS. The same stuff the Tebow does.
I got a little secret for you EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION AND EVERYONE THINKS THEY ARE RIGHT.... You can't control people's thoughts and beliefs. You really can't even control their actions as a free society. We can only punish the actions the cross the line after the fact.
Trying to shut down those that oppose your point of view instead of rebutting them makes your side lose ground, not gain it.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

I believe the WTBS and it's members have the right to shun who ever they want. Do you really think we can tell people who to be friends with as well?
That's some seriously screwed up logic cagefighter.
 

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Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church
by designs 3 years ago 110 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs
You are the master of the straw man.
I wouldn't doubt that this guy said SOME of the things you have pinned on him, but knowing how you HATE Christians who believe in the trinity, would you please site the sources of/for your accusations so we can all put them in context.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Cofty,
Explain to me what is screwed up? I believe you have the right to eat a raw onion while making out with another large man with cold sores all over his face while he is puking. Does that idea disgust me, heck ya! Might I give my opinion about it, sure. Do I believe you have a right to do it as long as the onion consents before hand sure.
It seems some people's ideas of tolerance only apply as long as they think it's a good idea.
What gives you or any of us the right the to tell JW's (or anyone else) who they can associate with? Should some one put a gun to Brother so-and-so's head and make them have tea and crumpets with you? Do you really think your purpose in life is to have everyone like you?
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

the WTBS and it's members have the right to shun who ever they want. Do you really think we can tell people who to be friends with as well?

Most parents don't freely choose to shun their children or let their children die rather than have blood.
Its the mind control and manipulaton that rational people oppose.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Cofty,
Ok I see your angle and I agree to some extent, but we are talking about too different things. If I want to be a JW and don't want to be associated with you that is my right regardless of my reasons.
When it comes to parents and children... Well I hate to tell you that JW's do not have the monoploy on Asshole parenting. There are plenty of drunks that shun their children that don't approve of their parent's alcoholism. Do we ban malt liqour and scotch?
Seriously, you're taking the blame off the individual and putting it on some old crackers that print poorly written and mis-educated theology. Put it where it belongs on the individuals. No one is making them be a JW or submit to it's mind control. They are there voluntarily.
This seems to be a common theme here on JWN and in the WTBS, "controlling the thoughts/emotions/feelings of others".
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

DD- It was on Yahoo News yesterday including the past statements from the head pastor. The article cited the sources and times of the pastor's statements.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs

The article cited the sources and times of the pastor's statements.
You never cited anything, you just slobbered. Sources please!
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

DD- Look it up for yourself, its easy just type in Tim Tebow and you will get multiple news sources on his upcoming speech and the quotes of the head Pastor of that church.
Now why should I as a humanist be concerned about your religious beliefs and the faith that has killed and enslaved hundreds of millions of people over the centuries. Because I am a humanist, I want our civilization to progress and our earth to be a safe environment.
'Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you' John 6:53, it is time to free people from these superstitions.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Be nice DD.
Here is the link I think Designs referred too.
http://now.msn.com/tim-tebow-will-appear-at-first-baptist-church-in-dallas-led-by-the-controversial-robert-jeffress
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago


Now why should I as a humanist be concerned about your religious beliefs and the faith that has killed and enslaved hundreds of millions of people over the centuries.
Sources Please!!!
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Cage- Thanks, somebody had to hold his hand through the Library so he wouldn't get lost
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

You are welcome Designs, but I am trying to refrain from snark directed at other posters. I have been inspired by some of the debates and culture I have discovered online mostly in the veritas forums. If someone chooses to enter the arena and discuss/debate we should advocate our beliefs passionately while respecting the other poster as a fellow gladiator for entering the arena.
It seems there are two groups of people that disagree no matter the subject. There are the petty, ill-informed, under-educated and lazy. Then there are the educated, sincere, and articulate.
It's not that I have anything against being petty, under-educated or lazy ... but no matter what side of the argument they usually have about 2 or 3 of the same ol things to same and then it just resorts to name calling and general dismissiveness and disrespect. It bores me.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

DD- You are aware of the European/Christian conquest of the Americas, Africa and Asian regions. 250,000 Jews were driven from their homes in Alexandria Egypt, women raped, children killed, homes burned because some bright and clever writer wrote in the Gospels 'Let his blood be upon us'.
Point being with Tim Tebow giving a pep talk to the faithful, it perpetuates the ideals to future generations when we should be steadily progressing away from these old religions.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Designs - In all fairness Tebow is not advocating killing anyone. This intolerance is what keeps me from supporting the "progressive" movement in America. A group of people have decided to live their lives in a certain way, what is wrong with that. How is that any different than the gay neighborhood of Oak Lawn that is about a mile North of Dr. Jeffries church will Tebow will be speaking? The gays in Oak Lawn aren't trying to kill the Baptist, but I am sure they disagree vehemently with their beliefs and we have no problem letting them be.
Do we need a homogenous society in thought and belief? That sounds like Fascism, to be honest and even if you did get it, it would only be skin deep.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

No Tebow is not advocating direct violence against any he does not consider 'saved'. Here is the slippery slope. The pastor of the Church though has and is perpetuating a set of beliefs that have cost the lives of millions over the centuries- Jews, Homosexuals, Indigenous peoples. Saying someone cannot get into heaven or is damned to hell in this day and age has consequences to the community- violence against individuals and groups, defacing Synagogues, beating up homosexuals, violence against women (second class status perpetuated from the Bible).
It is not a homogenous society that is the goal but an enlightened civilization. Just like the geo-centric claims of the Bible had to fall to science so do the other prejudices of the Bible. It is tragic (in the Watchtower sense of it) that a young college educated man such as Tim is giving a motivational speech on ideals that science has long proven false.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

I have lived in Dallas my whole life. I can not recall one time a Baptist attacked or led a mob to attack a sinner. So I would have to disagree with you about hanging the inquistion, gay-bashing, and the like on a few baptist in Dallas that are more likely to shove you for cutting in line at Luby's than stone you for being gay. So I would again, disagree vehemently that Tebow or Jeffries right to free speech should be infringed upon.
How do you know to topic of Tebow's speech? Did you assume it was going to be some anti-gay diatribe? I personally believe in alcohol fueled threesomes with buxom blondes, but you shouldn't assume every speech I make is about that.
The baptist church was around long before homosexuality was an issue. They are not an anti-gay group per say, they just don't condone homosexuality. Is a gay bar anti-straight? I have been in many churches and bars of all types. I think some people need to get out more.
If you want to read about relgious people that actually do cross the line here is a good article check out the sunni/shite violence that occurs daily.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 3 years ago

If you want to read about relgious people that actually do cross the line here is a good article check out the sunni/shite violence that occurs daily.
Slavery, civil rights and now gay bashing are things religious people have commited violence to stop. Secular law, fortunately, has stopped that (largely).
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Cagefighter- On the contrary I support Tebow and Jeffries right to free speech, the public needs to hear and know what they believe and advocate. Anything Tebow says in support of the Christian NT is open for debate and criticism, my right of free speech.
'The Baptist Church was around long before homosexuality was an issue', not sure exactly what you mean here but homosexuality is just part of the human spectrum and goes back as far as homo-sapiens have been around for 200,000 years, much longer than the Baptists. If it is the issue of homosexuality then place that prejudice on the Apostle Paul who wrote about those people not getting into heaven in 1Cor.6:9, that and other texts laid the basis for the persecution the Christians practiced against those considered unsaved.
Now maybe you live in a nice part of Dallas that has never seen discrimination of any sort. Dallas is home to some world class seminaries, what a tragedy on young minds. We get the prejudices of the Wt. and feel sad that young people are being educated in their ways and listen to Tim Tebow like motivational speeches at Conventions and with CO visits. What greater sadness to see young people being in a Baptist setting with all of the baggage of the Baptist perspective and a charismatic individual like Tim encouraging them like a David Splane does to the JW youth.
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 3 years ago

Could you put Quarterback in quote marks, please?
Gopher ...
My feelings exactly. I like the Jets (former) teammate who said that Tebow could be great playing football in the Premier League in England.
That way he would not need to use his hands or arms.
Rub a Dub
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Designs- this is where the train goes off the rails in my opinion. I get it, you don't like Tebow or the Baptists. However, up until now you have equated their beliefs and speech with murder, persecution, and assualt. This a huge leap and forgive me if you are just being sarcastic and I am not catching it.
I can desire and want to do very nasty things to an attractive woman in the supermarket. However, it is not a rape until I club her in the head and throw in the van. My deep down beliefs and wants do no necessarily dictate how I will behave. I would equiviquate your initial criticism of FBC and Tebow to calling a man a rapist just because he finds a woman attractive. A man is not a rapist until he rapes. Just like a Baptist is not a gay basher until they bash a gay. I find you to be just as prejudice as those your criticize.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Murder, persecution and assault have been the history of Christianity. Enough! Let civilized people continue the march away from these old religions. Name one kid whom you would want to be a Baptist minister or JW pioneer, it is mental abuse, and Tim is to far up the creek in his brain-washed state to be able to diswade these young followers.
 

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Topic Summary
quarterback tim tebow is scheduled to address the 11,000 member first baptist dallas congregation april 28th.
first baptist dallas and its outspoken pastor robert jeffries in recent times have called islam and mormonism coming from the 'pits of hell' and you can't be 'saved being a jew', although he clarified that being a jew is not the same type of hereticalness as being a mormon.....huh?.
pastor jeffries called the election of obama 'the rise of the anti-christ'.



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Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church
by designs 3 years ago 110 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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tec
tec 3 years ago


Once again, Still, the quote below is what I referred to as bias and prejudice.
Comments labelling people of faith/religion being ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, afraid, deluded, etc... that they should not hold certain positions in science or law... this is what I am speaking of, and I have seen this.
And yes, your comments are off regarding Islam. Of course what you state does happen... but it does not happen with all sects of Islam. So you cannot umbrella it. Certainly you can hate the belief/practice/whatever... and not hate the person. So it is not hard for a person of faith, Cofty, to understand that. Not even remotely hard to understand. But again, my point is that some have and build prejudice against all people of faith, regardless of what their faith compels them to do, simply on the basis of the fact that they have faith to begin with.
I have yet to see it. And I didn't say they 'bowed to a leader', those are YOUR words. I said, they always refer to someone who claims to have authority of some sort. Authority being....Special insight, knowledge, connection to the spirit realm or messages or understanding of their god and what he wants.
It is just an expression. I know people whose authority is Christ and God, and no one else, who share their faith with one another, but are not led by one another... and then there are also some who simply keep their faith quietly to themselves. So I will have to disagree with you on this, based on my knowledge and experience.
Not saying it does not ever happen. Of course it does. But there are many with whom it does not happen as well. If I can see that things are not the same with all theists, or all atheists, why can't you?
There are also plenty of people who do not lump all atheists in one group, or all theists in one group. They take a person for their individuality. Because making a blanket judgment of a person solely upon the basis of them having faith or not is prejudice, and does lead to discrimination.
Peace,
tammy
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Tammy- When a person who becomes a JW does it tie them to the history of the Watchtower.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

There was murder, persecuting and assauling before any of that was ever led by a christian group or religion (which happened when the religion got into bed with the kingdom - politics/nationalism). Christians themselves were murdered, persecuted and assaulted, before 'they' did anything in return. So I think it is safe to say that murder, persecution and assault would have continued with or without them. It just wouldn't have been done in the "name of Christ and God". (though often at least in the case of wars and such, it was also in the name of King, County...)
Should we speak out against intolerance and prejudice that we see/hear today, though? I think so, in all of its forms. Even though sometimes the only thing way that we can speak is by doing.
Peace,
tammy
 
tec
tec 3 years ago


Tammy- When a person who becomes a JW does it tie them to the history of the Watchtower.
Which history of the WTS?
It depends upon if they know the history, and once knowing that history, if they choose to remain or to leave.
The religion is not separate from its history though. Nor is the religion of Christianity seperate from its history. But the history of Christianity is quite separate from Christ (as one can see based upon what has been done by christianity in the 'name of christ')
Some choose to follow Christ, rather than various forms of christianity.
Peace,
tammy

 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Tammy- If the Watchtower leaders were to start giving really good motivational speeches would it make the JW religion a good choice to join.
This is the sad consequence of Tim giving really good motivational speeches at Churches, some young mind will be seduced and taken in by his religious beliefs.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago


Tammy- If the Watchtower leaders were to start giving really good motivational speeches would it make the JW religion a good choice to join.
Of course not; not on that basis alone. But the same holds true for any walk of life. If a person cannot see past the motivational speaker, and the charisma of that speaker, to the words underneath... then what can you do? You can speak against it; maybe get a great motivational speaker who states the opposite. Bottom line though, people have to think for themselves, and that includes youth. Which they do tend to do at some point or another. Too much information and easy access to that information these days.
Peace,
tammy
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Most conservative religious groups are not DIRECTLY involved in violence or discrimination against people who they've attempted to marginalize in the past, such as people of "other" religions, gays, blacks, women, atheists, etc. , etc. But people who DO violence against them have used some ideas preached or suggested in some of these churches as moral justification for their acts. The inferiority of blacks and "other" religions was preached in many conservative churches, and respectable business leaders in the south joined the Ku Klux Klan which visited terror on minorities.
The fear and hatred visited upon groups and individuals that powerful churches haven't liked over the centuries is mind-boggling and scary. I'm not saying ALL churches do this, as some do preach mercy, love and inclusiveness. But that last sentence doesn't even come close to describing the kind of church that is welcoming Tim Tebow to bring itself attention.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Gopher- that is the point, Tim is going to be held in association with this Church and its pastor. You would think someone on his managment team would have told him to speak at a more neutral site.
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Designs: My personal opinion, based on Tim's activism in the past, is that he is perfectly fine speaking at a place like this, which he believes uphold Christian values similar to his own. In other words, it may sound callous - but I think Tim and this church deserve each other.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

Yes, either he does not care what they teach and so hasn't looked into it (or you, Designs, are wrong on what they teach - not saying you are, I just don't keep track of all the various churches/teachers down there or even up here); or he believes what they teach and so has no problem speaking to them; or he is going there to speak in the hopes that something he says will change their focus from the more anti-rhetoric, to focus on the love and mercy of Christ and God. Who knows until after he makes his speech?
Peace,
tammy
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Designs - The problem I have with your line of logic is you refuse to accept that your views are just as subjective as Tebow's and Dr. Jeffries. I can't believe you seriously do not see the irony. If the whole point of the SBC church was too bash gays, I would be more inclined to indulge your alarmism. There are many baptists that hold their own opinions on the issue.
And wasn't Obama was a memeber of a United Church of Chrsit congregation? Are you hanging the sins of Christedom on him as well? JFK was a CATHOLIC, Holy Moly! The Inquistion, The Iron Maiden, The Rack! How annoying is it when every time Obama speaks Glenn Beck starts yelling it's evidence he is a communist, baby squirell killer or whatever because he associated with Bill Ayers in the past? I guess it depends on the person and if it advances and agenda that you like, eh? That is complete intellectual dishonesty and the only people you will influence are the ones that already agree with you, which means you wasted your time.
It seems your beliefs and passion have blinded you to objectivity. Why don't you start a thread or use your time to convince me on an intellectual level that religion does more harm than good. Instead you are just really going poo-poo on a speech that hasn't even been spoken yet.
I don't get it and I think you a smarter than this.
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Tammy,
For your consideration - the pastor of this church is spreading fear, loathing and misinformation by saying the 'gay population' is 70% infected with the AIDS virus.
Also Jeffries is meddling in politics by saying gays should not be allowed in the military. This is already settled law. Who is he to try to make laws for the rest of the country? The arrogance of some in major denominations, telling the American government that everyone should live by THEIR rules!!
I don't know what Tebow will preach there. However, First Baptist Church didn't bring in someone to preach a message varying from their own, they don't seem that tolerant!
Tebow may have not made a public pronouncement about his view of homosexual people and their place / rights in our society, but he certainly allies himself with groups that spread fear about them, including Focus on the Family (for whom he famously did a Super Bowl ad in the last year or so).
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

@Gopher- You said Tebow and FBC deserve eachother. That is my point, live and let live. That is what you and Designs want them to do, why can't others do the same?
Do yall realize that if we all knew every belief and the deep down thoughts of those we are closest too, we could probably find at least 10 things that disgusts us?
I think there are some people here that live in a very different world than I do.
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Cagefighter - It's one thing to have personal beliefs with which I don't agree. Everyone has the right to their personal beliefs, and if I agreed with anyone 100% it'd worry me.
It's the projection of self-righteousness of certain evangelicals like Jeffries and Tebow, they who use it for self-enrichment and self-aggrandizement, that puts a major burr in my saddle.
Edited to add:
To me, many in the evangelical movement project the notion that anyone who disagrees with them is a lesser human or doesn't have God's approval. Most of the problems in humanity start when someone is viewed as less worthy than someone else.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

This speech (unknown topic) at this specific Church with its head Pastor and the notority of Tim are an interesting mix. The NFL League has had a non-discrimination policy since 2005 and has a benefits package for domestic partners. The NFL Players Association still does not offer same sex partners benefits even though the League has asked to write such a policy. Paul Tagliabue has a son who came out a few year ago.
The President did sever ties with his Pastor over the public outcry (self-serving as he was seeking to be elected). JFK made a public statement about the Catholic influence.
Listen, we are a couple of centuries away from religion being a dusty shelf in a museum. I am for free speech, actually it is very important for our politicians and celebrities to express their views for we elect them and spend money on them. Fashion Designer John Galliano was on the hot-seat for his rants against Jews, people can now make a choice to buy or shun his clothing line.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

Well it seems to me you two refuse to see that your beliefs our just as subjective as theirs. All due respect, but I think some people over value their own opinions. It seems that it really makes some people lose a lot of sleep that someone might hold an opinion that is "wrong" and has the guts to be open and honest about it. God forbid, they get together with some other people that feel the same way, hold hands, sing some silly songs, and pray to an imaginary friend.
One man sees a self-righteous jerk and another man sees a person that sticks to their beliefs and is honest. Would you prefer that they disagreed with homosexuality and said nothing or just whispered their beliefs in the safe ears? I don't think you can have it both ways.
I feel like an observer seeing two schitzophrenic people fighting. Both thinks the other one is the devil when they are really just another person with a separate delusion. That is what I think when I see the progressives go after the religious right in this hypocritical manner.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago


For your consideration - the pastor of this church is spreading fear, loathing and misinformation by saying the 'gay population' is 70% infected with the AIDS virus.
Also Jeffries is meddling in politics by saying gays should not be allowed in the military. This is already settled law. Who is he to try to make laws for the rest of the country? The arrogance of some in major denominations, telling the American government that everyone should live by THEIR rules!!
Thanks, Gopher.
Such things should be spoken against. Best way would probably be with the actual facts and truths, rather than fear-mongering. Then, as always, it is the choice of each individual person what they will listen to, and what they will dismiss. Of course, in the case of faith on Christ and God... if they held their teachings up to the "light" (Christ in this case... and thank you to someone else for pointing this out)... then they would be better able to discern the difference between the truth... and the lies. Each person gets to choose who they listen to, themselves.
I don't know what Tebow will preach there. However, First Baptist Church didn't bring in someone to preach a message varying from their own, they don't seem that tolerant!
Probably not.
Tebow may have not made a public pronouncement about his view of homosexual people and their place / rights in our society, but he certainly allies himself with groups that spread fear about them, including Focus on the Family (for whom he famously did a Super Bowl ad in the last year or so).
Perhaps. I don't know enough about him to comment more. But if people kept their eyes on the one they claim to follow, then it really would not matter to them who came as an inspirational speaker.
Peace,
tammy
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Cagefighter- This is an opinion of mine and drawn from observations made from the last elections when we all saw and heard the religious conservative far right make statements about women and gays, this being a country that their god would now abandon or punish for not believing in X. How long will this nonsense have to repeat itself to future generations.
'Christianity has held back science a 1000 years' Bill Murray
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

Cute... and I suppose Bill Murray is a more valid inspirational speaker?

Peace,
tammy
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Hey any guy willing to show up in bright plaid knickers to play golf in isn't to be messed with
 

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Topic Summary
quarterback tim tebow is scheduled to address the 11,000 member first baptist dallas congregation april 28th.
first baptist dallas and its outspoken pastor robert jeffries in recent times have called islam and mormonism coming from the 'pits of hell' and you can't be 'saved being a jew', although he clarified that being a jew is not the same type of hereticalness as being a mormon.....huh?.
pastor jeffries called the election of obama 'the rise of the anti-christ'.



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Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church
by designs 3 years ago 110 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

Well...I've skimmied through this thread...and am uninspired to respond to the vast majority of comments defending the religious right to bigotry and abuse.
Its the mind control and manipulaton that rational people oppose...cofty.
All I can say is...cofty, I agree with this.
Tec...your continued assertion that 'some' atheists try to create predudice against believers simply because they believe is untrue. No matter how many time you repeat it. It will not make it any truer.
My inlaws are VERY reiligious in a sense that they have very strong faith in christ but do not (for now) belong to any church. I have utmost respect for them as people. The are a couple of the nicest people I have ever met. THEY do not push their beliefs on others. They do preach (and used to call themselves pastors) and have small gatherings in thier house for those that want it. But that is all.
I do NOT respect their delusion. (and I am free to call it that) But I respect them as humans and wonderful people. They behave like christians apparently should. They are charitable, loving, caring and giving, that's who they are. The would do anything to help anyone. I can not critisize their behaviour. BUT, I do not respect their unfounded belief...and just for you cagefighter, who seems to be insisting that atheists don't want people to have the same rights and freedoms...meh! I would fight for their right to be able to discuss their belief freely. Even though I don't agree with what they teach. Many religions, for example Islam, fight to silence people who disagree with them to the point of threating peoples lives. And the catholic church has had a history of killing and torturing those that oppose them.
Manipulation of Religion and some of its followers I hold in contempt. Because of WHAT THEY DO.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago


Hey any guy willing to show up in bright plaid knickers to play golf in isn't to be messed with
Indeed :wink:
Tec...your continued assertion that 'some' atheists try to create predudice against believers simply because they believe is untrue. No matter how many time you repeat it. It will not make it any truer.
Some atheists are prejudiced against believers simply because they believe. Their statements can create further prejudice. I never said that it was you. I said only that I have seen such, to the point of stating that someone of faith should not hold certain careers... without a shred of proof that their belief would effect their work. To the point of spreading the lies that these people are ignorant, lesser, not as enlightened, etc, etc. Those kinds of statements CREATE prejudice in the same way that statements that homosexuals are lesser beings who should also not hold certain careers creates prejudice against them.
Peace,
tammy
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Tammy:
You seem to imply an equivalency between perceived instances of bias by atheists against believers with the instances of bias by believers against homosexuals.
Disclaimer - I am now an unbeliever, formerly a believer. And like another humanist poster on this thread, I fully support the concept of people being able to believe what they want.
That being said, here's what I think: In American society, believers are in the clear majority. They hold almost all the levers of power, and politically can get much more tilted their way. This, in spite of the establishment clause of our Constitution.
I'm unaware of times where atheists have attempted to block believers from gainful employment. Maybe you mean in the world of science?
I don't know, but I don't know that it's ever reached the point where such believers have had to fight a large establishment that has demonized them, or have had to fight against laws and lawmakers who are determined to marginalize/diminish them as unworthy humans. But homosexuals demonized by certain influential religions have had to do so. So I don't see the equivalency.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

Atheists are in the minority at the moment, and atheists who are prejudiced against people of faith are an even further minority. A minority does not often affect policies... not unless/until they are in a position of power or authority.
But as has been stated in this thread, prejudices are built upon teachings that LEAD to bias and prejudice.
It starts with words, and changing/influencing the way people think and feel. Then it grows from there. The attitude comes first, then the action. Certainly not by all... but then not all religious people are prejudiced and/or discriminatory either. Enough are though, that people have gotten hurt.
It is just something I think people should be aware of, because we almost never see our own prejudices toward others. We almost always justify it to ourselves, or dismiss it as not existing. Anyone that promotes another group of people as being less than themselves, is promoting prejudice.

(And yes, I meant in the world of science... which leaks into the world of law enforcement and trials and such which involves science in crime, and also leaks into teaching, and also leaks into the medical profession... I mean, there aren't many places it does not leak except perhaps in some of the more 'ditch digging' jobs.)
Peace,
tammy
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

and atheists who are prejudiced against people of faith
Who are these people you keep referring too? Is it a group of atheist somewhere that are organised or actively trying to harm people of faith? Sometimes I think you just make stuff up as you go because it has that WOW factor. But where are you getting this from? I don't know any atheists that are prejudiced against PEOPLE of faith. Just their faith and the way they go about it. Statements like that are unfounded.
I find relgious belief to be prejudiced against everyone that doesn't believe as they do (and they patronisingly insist it's because WE just don't understand yet, assuming they are always right). Because some believe they will be saved and are special in some way that non believers aren't. What sort of prejudice does that create in society? People who think they are superior because they have the 'TRUTH' (not just JW's either). And will probably be saved and rule over others in the future?
They often profess humbleness...but as one thread on here recently showed when discussing how christ makes people 'fully human' etc...that belief is far from humble and is in fact repulsive. I will not respect it. And fortunately, I don't have to..
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

Yes apparently atheists are not fully human - who would have thought?
Tammy stop with the persecution complex.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

You have to hand it to Pastor Jeffress he sticks by his statements. When Mitt Romney asked him to change his statement on the LDS being a 'cult' he turned Mitt down. He also publishes a 'Naughty and Nice List' for businesses that support Christmas. And of course his sermon on 'Gay Is Not Ok'. Now they run homeless shelter and other social services such as senior care. Michael Mooney, who interviewed him, said he is genuinely polite and caring. He simply wishes that you don't end up in Hell. While his college does not teach evolution it does prepare young people for missions to convert the unsaved.
He also may rival other wealthy ministries. His campus construction project is budgeted at $128million, the most expensive of its kind, featuring a cross shaped fountain and glass skywalk, an 'oasis' within the city as Jeffress invisions.
Jeffress vocal stand against homosexuals came from reading two books: 'Heather Has Two Mommies' and 'Daddy's Roommate', he never returned those books to the Library according to the interview.
So Tim has taken a stand of sorts with the public and with his professional colleagues.
I should add the Wt. leaders could stand to take pointers from Jeffress and his positive approaches to social problems.
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago



Tammy:

You seem to imply an equivalency between perceived instances of bias by atheists against believers with the instances of bias by believers against homosexuals.
Don't forget racism too...she is really trying paint a bleak picture of Atheism. Trouble is. Its nonsense.

 to the point of stating that someone of faith should not hold certain careers
Lets see...would you like someone like Osama Binladin (a person of very strong faith) to hold a position of power in your country?
It is not because the 'person' holds faith. It is the faith he holds. And the actual effects that person of faith, holding a positon of power would have to change others lives and impose his belifs on others.
Would you want a person of 'faith' that believes all homosexuals should not have equal rights, as in some parts of Africa to hold a position of power in YOUR country? Where it is against some of their RELIGIOUS values and imposed on all the people of their country. This ignorance and RELIGIOUS bigotry does not deserve respect.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) rights in Africa are limited in comparison to many other areas of the world. The International Gay and Lesbian Association estimated in 2008 that homosexuality was outlawed in 38 African countries, and in at least 13 African countries, homosexuality was legal or there were no laws pertaining to it. [1]
Since 2011, some first world countries have been considering or implementing laws that limit or prohibit general budget support to countries that restrict the rights of homosexuals. [2] In spite of this, many African countries are continuing to breach international human rights laws, refusing to consider increasing LGBT rights, [3] and in some cases drafting laws to increase sanctions against LGBT lifestyles. [4] Many African leaders feel that gay rights are against their cultural and religious value systems and believe they have a sovereign right to reject what is seen as an imposition by mainly Western nations, which attempts to affect national sentiment via aid. [5] [6] [7] [8]
In Mauritania, Sudan, and northern Nigeria, homosexuality is punishable by death. In Uganda, Tanzania, and Sierra Leone, offenders can receive life imprisonment for homosexual acts. South Africa's constitution has the most liberal attitudes toward gays and lesbians, with a constitution which guarantees gay and lesbian rights, and legal same-sex marriage.
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

I appreciate hearing your thoughts, Tammy.
However I must kindly but firmly disagree with any assertion that atheism in and of itself leads to prejudice against unbelievers, if that's what you are saying.
Pure atheism is a mere skepticism about the existence of any deity. It doesn't teach condemnation of those who don't agree with its ideas.
Some individual atheists would take it to that extent, but that is a function of their personality. That is to say, they would be that way regardless of their philosophy or belief. (Just as I like to say, some JW's are nice people in spite of and not because of their religion.)
I am unaware of atheist persecution of Christians in law enforcement, criminal investigation, teaching and medicine. If you wish to provide a source here (or if you wish you may send it to me in a PM so we can take this topic off-line), I'm interested in hearing it because I've never heard much about it before (other than the resistance to young-earth creationists who try to introduce the topic of the supernatural into science whereas science shouldn't deal with the question of the supernatural but only the natural).
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

How about a member of the Governing body of the Jehovahs Witnesses? Would you want them in a position of power? What sort of law reform would we be seeing if they were in charge?

It is just something I think people should be aware of, because we almost never see our own prejudices toward others. We almost always justify it to ourselves, or dismiss it as not existing. Anyone that promotes another group of people as being less than themselves, is promoting prejudice...tec
I have to agree with that statement. Especially when believers are saying that those that do not have faith in christ are not 'fully human'. Now THAT is very very similar to how racists and homophobics think of other people.
I don't know about you, but I would not want someone who held this type of belief making governmental decisions for me.
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

Pure atheism is a mere skepticism about the existence of any deity. It doesn't teach condemnation of those who don't agree with its ideas.


 
tec
tec 3 years ago

I appreciate hearing your thoughts, Tammy.
Thank you. I have appreciated the same from you.
However I must kindly but firmly disagree with any assertion that atheism in and of itself leads to prejudice against unbelievers, if that's what you are saying.
It is not what I am saying. Not at all. That would be ME promoting prejudice against an entire group of people based on their shared non-belief in God.
This is why I tried to make a distinction to only those who promote that all people of faith are ignorant, or afraid, or cannot face reality, or are not enlightened, etc... AND... to the point where some think they should not hold certain jobs due to their faith, rather than their ability to do such jobs.
Pure atheism is a mere skepticism about the existence of any deity. It doesn't teach condemnation of those who don't agree with its ideas.
Agreed.
People teach contempt for those who don't agree with them. Atheism is merely a non-acceptance or skepticism about the existance of a deity (s).
Some individual atheists would take it to that extent, but that is a function of their personality. That is to say, they would be that way regardless of their philosophy or belief. (Just as I like to say, some JW's are nice people in spite of and not because of their religion.)
Those individuals are who I am speaking of. They do not make up the majority of atheists. I learned that on this forum. Those individuals would exist regardless of religion, politics, nationalism, atheism, class, race, etc.
I am unaware of atheist persecution of Christians in law enforcement, criminal investigation, teaching and medicine. If you wish to provide a source here (or if you wish you may send it to me in a PM so we can take this topic off-line), I'm interested in hearing it because I've never heard much about it before (other than the resistance to young-earth creationists who try to introduce the topic of the supernatural into science whereas science shouldn't deal with the question of the supernatural but only the natural).
I am also unaware of actual discrimination when it comes to jobs and such as well. But it is the opinion of some, even here, that such people should not hold those positions. Because of their faith. Not because of their abilities to perform their job.
As I said, the attitude comes first... then the act.
I have seen the attitude. I have not personally seen the act. In a thread that discusses actions following the teachings and talks and words of others who help build prejudice, I didn't think it was out of line to point out that attitude as well.
We can remain on this thread or go to pm. (unless Designs wants it taken elsewhere) Does not matter to me. You choose.

Peace,
tammy
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 3 years ago

Atheists are in the minority at the moment, and atheists who are prejudiced against people of faith are an even further minority. A minority does not often affect policies... not unless/until they are in a position of power or authority.
But as has been stated in this thread, prejudices are built upon teachings that LEAD to bias and prejudice.
LOL, Hey all you unbelievers! We are now the subject of a slippery slope!!
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 3 years ago

I am also unaware of actual discrimination when it comes to jobs and such as well. But it is the opinion of some, even here, that such people should not hold those positions. Because of their faith. Not because of their abilities to perform their job.
Not quite acurate. The ability to do their job without prejudice. That is the concern.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

@Stillthinking- you summed up my argument well. Yes, people have the right to be as ignorant, bigoted, and plain stupid as they want to be. A lot of people on the left like weilding the poo-poo cannon right now, but they don't realize that if they got their way all it takes is another election and someone would be shutting them down if the other party wins. For the record, I defended the left's right to speech during the previous age when the wind was blowing from the other direction and we were all holding hands, wrapped in the flag, singing God Bless America on the capital.
This is ridiculous and childish. Yall have to use more of your brains than this! Just remember every battle needs morons to jump in front of machine guns on the front lines and generals way back to give the orders. Where are you in the fight?
I haven't defened Tebow's speech first of all because it hasn't been given.
Second, I don't defend Dr. Jefferies only his right to speech, religion, and assembly. The second he crosses the line, lock him up.
Something really odd is going on with some of you. Do you really think you can control people's thoughts. Not everyone needs to be liked. Some people really do believe in the Bible, God, etc.. regardless of your thoughts about it. Do they not deserve respect?
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

LOL, Hey all you unbelievers! We are now the subject of a slippery slope!!
Yes Berengaria...it would appear to be prophesy.. Based on opinion with zero evidence to support it...LOL
it's just sensationalism and fear mongering. Ooooh, those scary athests, one day they will get together and be prejudiced towards all believers...of all nations...and all sects and beliefs...just you wait and see. It will happen. I KNOW.
Maybe it's in the bible...do they say something about atheists in revelation?

Some of the WORST countries with THE worst atrocities being done to its citizens are 'believing' countries. They run their countries like dictators. And they wonder why we don't want people like them in power BECAUSE of their faith.

Quote from site below:
If this often-touted religious theory were correct-that a turning away from God is at the root of all societal ills-then we would expect to find the least religious nations on earth to be bastions of crime, poverty, and disease and the most religious nations to be models of societal health. A comparison of highly irreligious countries with highly religious countries, however, reveals a very different state of affairs. In reality, the most secular countries-those with the highest proportion of atheists and agnostics-are among the most stable, peaceful, free, wealthy, and healthy societies. And the most religious nations-wherein worship of God is in abundance-are among the most unstable, violent, oppressive, poor, and destitute.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 3 years ago

@Stillthinking- you summed up my argument well. Yes, people have the right to be as ignorant, bigoted, and plain stupid as they want to be. A lot of people on the left like weilding the poo-poo cannon right now, but they don't realize that if they got their way all it takes is another election and someone would be shutting them down if the other party wins. For the record, I defended the left's right to speech during the previous age when the wind was blowing from the other direction and we were all holding hands, wrapped in the flag, singing God Bless America on the capital.
This is ridiculous and childish. Yall have to use more of your brains than this! Just remember every battle needs morons to jump in front of machine guns on the front lines and generals way back to give the orders. Where are you in the fight?
I haven't defened Tebow's speech first of all because it hasn't been given.
Second, I don't defend Dr. Jefferies only his right to speech, religion, and assembly. The second he crosses the line, lock him up.
Something really odd is going on with some of you. Do you really think you can control people's thoughts. Not everyone needs to be liked. Some people really do believe in the Bible, God, etc.. regardless of your thoughts about it. Do they not deserve respect?

Once more, in English!
 
tec
tec 3 years ago


Yes apparently atheists are not fully human - who would have thought?
Odd comment to bring up to me. I hold no such view.
Tammy stop with the persecution complex.
No complex. Just observation, and personal experience.
Don't forget racism too...she is really trying paint a bleak picture of Atheism. Trouble is. Its nonsense.
This comment is nonsense, indeed.
Lets see...would you like someone like Osama Binladin (a person of very strong faith) to hold a position of power in your country?
That would depend very much upon what his faith compelled him to do. (and no, I would want this man to hold a position of power... his deeds speak for him... but I would not state that no muslim should be in office or hold a position of power... THAT would be discrimination based upon faith)
It is not because the 'person' holds faith. It is the faith he holds. And the actual effects that person of faith, holding a positon of power would have to change others lives and impose his belifs on others.
Would you want a person of 'faith' that believes all homosexuals should not have equal rights, as in some parts of Africa to hold a position of power in YOUR country? Where it is against some of their RELIGIOUS values and imposed on all the people of their country. This ignorance and RELIGIOUS bigotry does not deserve respect.
See all of this shows me that you are not getting the point that I am making.
The above are very particular things. I would not trust a leader who holds other people in contempt; or who thinks that all people do not have equal rights. I would vote against such a leader. Because of the particulars of the things that he believes and the prejudices that he holds and lives. A leader should hold all people equal. So as to negate prejudices and discrimination.
I am speaking as to people who have a prejudice against people of faith, regardless of knowing the particulars of their faith or what they do IN their faith.
Being a theist does not make a person ignorant, unenlightened, prejudiced, unintelligent. No more than being an atheist makes a person immoral. The people who spread these things are the ones showing and teaching prejudice.
Peace,
tammy
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

@Berengaria - Uhhh... that is English. You might want to put down the Bon Bons and turn down Maddow and start at page one of this thread. It will take a while because you will actually have to read and think. It should be a good change for you from throwing posters in a box and screaming RACIST, HOMOPHOBE, or waiting on your buddy Bizzybee and taking about male sexual organs.
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 3 years ago

A lot of people on the left like weilding the poo-poo cannon right now, but they don't realize that if they got their way all it takes is another election and someone would be shutting them down if the other party wins.
Ok, so not only is that a horrible excuse for a sentence, but what is a "poo poo cannon"?
And this, what the hell is this supposed to mean?
This is ridiculous and childish. Yall have to use more of your brains than this! Just remember every battle needs morons to jump in front of machine guns on the front lines and generals way back to give the orders. Where are you in the fight?
 

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Topic Summary
quarterback tim tebow is scheduled to address the 11,000 member first baptist dallas congregation april 28th.
first baptist dallas and its outspoken pastor robert jeffries in recent times have called islam and mormonism coming from the 'pits of hell' and you can't be 'saved being a jew', although he clarified that being a jew is not the same type of hereticalness as being a mormon.....huh?.
pastor jeffries called the election of obama 'the rise of the anti-christ'.



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Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church
by designs 3 years ago 110 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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Berengaria
Berengaria 3 years ago

@Berengaria - Uhhh... that is English. You might want to put down the Bon Bons and turn down Maddow and start at page one of this thread. It will take a while because you will actually have to read and think. It should be a good change for you from throwing posters in a box and screaming RACIST, HOMOPHOBE, or waiting on your buddy Bizzybee and taking about male sexual organs.
Huh??? Again, this is quite senseless.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago



Yes Berengaria...it would appear to be prophesy.. Based on opinion with zero evidence to support it...LOL
it's just sensationalism and fear mongering. Ooooh, those scary athests, one day they will get together and be prejudiced towards all believers...of all nations...and all sects and beliefs...just you wait and see. It will happen. I KNOW.


I have said nothing like this. I have made a simple point as to the prejudice that some show toward all faith, regardless, and how such behavior in other areas has led to prejudices being acted upon. Pretty much the same comment that you made regarding religious belief.
So before this gets twisted into things that I never said or even implied, lets bring it back:

The problem comes when what is being said and preached affects peoples lives. And that is what happens with religious belief. One way or another it effects other peoples lives, not just their own. By creating prejudice against other people who do not believe as they do

. Or bigotry against people because of their self righteous ignorance. Still Thinking

And I replied that this happens in more areas than just religous beliefs: Political, national, heirarchal, racial, even some atheists have and/or create prejudice... such as this:

Comments labelling people of faith/religion being ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, afraid, deluded, etc... that they should not hold certain positions in science or law... this is what I am speaking of, and I have seen this.... tec

No fear mongering or sensationalism. Just the hope that some might be more aware of the similar attitude of creating prejudice against people who do not believe as they do. Believe me, I am well aware of the divides and prejudices that religion has caused. The infringment upon the rights of many people. I think it is disgusting. It is just not limited to the religious.
Peace,
tammy
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

Do they not deserve respect?
I respect their right to preach it...I don't respect what they preach.
And I do NOT respect oppressive religions that dictate that others must abide by their beliefs and god given laws. And I do not respect followers of a religion that inflict their beliefs on others in the form of shunning etc. I don't respect abusive or manipulative behaviour. It's fine to believe whatever you like...until it effects others that have no say, and takes away their right to not be treated that way.
I do not respect their Gods, any more than I respect the tooth fairy. But I respect their right to believe in their gods.
When religious belief gets to the point that lives are threatened because of a comic stip picture in a newspaper they claim 'offends' their belief. I do NOT respect their belief or their religion or the people who threaten others lives defending their belief.
One thing believers of all sort seem to hold in common is how easily offense is taken and claimed. They often do not want others to have the same rights they do, to not believe, and to say it. People are expected to tip toe and be respectful of their imaginary god, and belief in their imaginary gods...whilst they tell people that they are not 'fully human' without their gods. And they think their belief deserves respect. It's a joke.
 
Gopher
Gopher 3 years ago

Cagefighter,
I'm not one who wants to control what others say or think. Goes without saying - I don't have that power.
I respect anyone's right to believe what they want as long as it doesn't harm others. If someone wants to do a headstand in a corner of the room and kick their legs around in the air because they think it'll please someone who's watching from an invisible realm, I say hey - go for it.
My problem is when they use their positions of power to support discrimination or spew teachings that fill the air with distrust of whole groups of people that their religion preaches will be condemned to death (or worse) because they dare to live in a different way than their church preaches, I will say loud and clear that it is offensive.
If nobody on the Internet shared the very reasonable view that Jeffries and Tebow are making much money and commanding much attention by their self-promotion, then we'd only be hearing "happiness and rainbows" type stuff about these guys.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

$128million campus building project requires the Pastor to line up the celebrity speakers his flock will whip out their check books for. Tim fits the Marquee.
 
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent 3 years ago

The Tebow character and his sponsor both look like so many others of their ilk that talk big about sexual sins, and who (one day) are discovered to be doing precisely what they condemn so zealously. This could be a result of their internalised fear of their own personal inclination to homosexuality. So it may be that the stronger the attraction of these men to other males (and its mainly men that become so vociferous about men having sex with men), the more they condemn it in public, as part of a never-ending struggle against their own lust. It often becomes hypocritical when the public talk masks their secret sexual escapades with other men, witness the many examples in American public life.
Examples of this can often be seen in American public life. (probably the same in other nations also, but the American example is better documented) The odious McCarthy of the immediate post war era, conflated and demonised homosexuality with communism, and was surrounded by men who on rational examination were motivated by their own internalised homophobia. Here are some of the names of that era, who were secretly homosexual, but often loud in their denunciations of homosexuality. We could start with the most powerful (at tht time) man in the USA- J.Edgar Hoover, head of the FBI. Extremely powerful because his secret files were as good as the later East German Stasi, listing all the secret dirt on the who's who of US Society. Hoover was single all his life and lived with his 'best friend' Clyde Tolson, who was employed at FBI HQ by Hoover. It is now well-known that Hoover was same sex attracted.
Here's a pik of hoover and his gay partner relaxing together. (from Wikipedia)
File:Hoover & Tolson.jpg
Hoover made the bullets that McCarthy fired - not only against communists - but also against homosexuals.

Secondly, we could take Cardinal Francis Spellman, though I'm not quite sure that he had a strong 'internalised homophobia.' I think he really enjoyed his attraction to other males. As Archbishop of New York he also was extremely powerful (he became the richest Catholic prelate in the US Church). He is described as having a succession of boyfriends and holding discreet gay parties. Also a close friend and supporter of McCarthy, and a purposeful ally in the McCarthy witchhunts, he arranged an adoption for the McCarthy's when their marriage proved childless.
Another key figure was a psychiatrist, Harry Stack Sullivan who also lived with his male lover. Sullivan can surely be indicted as hypocritical and with an internalised homophobia. During WW2 he designed screening tests to weed out homosexuals in the military. Not sure how successful the tests were, that's something I'd like to research one day. I suggest that Sullivan worked with McCarthy to expose possible homosexuals in government.
And, then there is the infamous Roy Cohn, McCarthy's right hand man, a N.Y.Lawyer and McCarthy's fixer. Curious is it not, that Cohn' efforts led to McCarthy's downfall when Cohn tried to arrange special privileges in the US Army, for a David Schnide with whom he was infatuated. Cohn was the ultimate homophobic hypocrite. Nicholas von Hoffman, wrote a biography of Cohn, called Citizen Cohn. One of Cohn's former staffers described how he would drive Cohn to functions held by 'family first' type groups where Cohn would make vicious attacks on homosexuals (enemies of the state stuff, maybe???) On these occasions Cohn would be accompanied by his current boyfriend, and they would then go off to dinner together.
With so many 'friends of Dorothy' around him, it's easy to start wondering about McCarthy himself.
Internalised homophobia is well discussed in the academic circles concerned with emotional and mental health (although, there is discussion as to whether 'homophobia' is the best term).
It is clear that in western, Christian society with the terrible inner (emotional) tensions created by the doctrine that the 'spirit is against the flesh' (Galatians Ch 5), not just for the same sex attracted, but for heterosexuals also, it is little wonder that people finish up 'awkward' about sex. For those who are 'gay,' as we now describe this age-old phenonemon, the problem is exacerbated by past social condemnation. Since humans are social animals, this is a difficult problem. Little wonder that some same-sex attracted people become 'homophobic.'
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

That was interesting fulltimestudent...
The appaling comments made by some of faith regarding what makes someone 'human' makes you wonder what the hell is going on in their heads doesn't it?
God had created man and woman as a specific "duality" – "an essential aspect of what being human is all about."...THE POPE
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

And his comments about same sex marriage....
"When freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God," ....Pope Benedict

Both of those quotes can be found here in his Christmas speech where he is anti gay marriage and condemning it as 'against family values'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/pope-anti-gay-speech_n_2344870.html
 
sooner7nc
sooner7nc 3 years ago

Look, these kooks at this church in Dallas are total asshats for their public anti-gay stand and Timmy would probably be better served by distancing himself from them but if he feels the same way that's his business. His career will suffer but I don't think he really cares because he really believes what he believes.
As for people of either persuasion, Athiest or Faithful, being able to do a public service job without their beliefs spilling over into the job...not going to happen. They'll both be affected.

Also...
A minority does not often affect policies- This should win the award for Bullshit Statement of the Year
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

@Berengaria - I can tell you, but I can't make you understand.
For the rest- I guess yall really think the government should tell people what to believe if it really offends your sensibilities? You do realize this is a free county and if a "church" wanted to make child molestation (something I think we all find absolutely disgusting) as a part of their doctrine that is legal. In fact, they could even assemble on their own property and speak about their love of child molestation in meetings and services with their other members.
Now, the second one of them touches a child or aids another in doing so, it's straight to jail. Do I find it regrettable that someone would advocate something I find so wrong, sure. But, I also sleep well knowing their right to do so, is the same right that allows me to speak against it.
My point is, instead of trying to take away all our rights maybe some of you should spend more time either advocating for your cause somewhere besides the internet or work on amending the constitution to only allow freedom for those that don't hurt your feelings. Because these attacks against a speech that has yet to be given and people that you claim to know their hearts but do not is just plain cowardly.
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

For the rest- I guess yall really think the government should tell people what to believe if it really offends your sensibilities?
You come to strange conclusions from what is written.
I like the way you say their ignorant comments should be allowed because THEY are entitled to freedom of speech. But anyone who says they disagree of find it disgusting...are attacking. Are WE not entitled to the same freedom of speech you state others are. Or do we offend YOUR sensibilities.
We are only stating what we think. Just like they are and you are. And yet you defend their right to do it, but not ours. And you label us cowards.
The only cowardly people I see are the ones hiding behind religions making homophobic, racist, sexist bigoted comments. And guess what. I am also free to say that. Just as YOU are able to call us cowardly.

My point is, instead of trying to take away all our rights maybe some of you should spend more time either advocating for your cause somewhere besides the internet or work on amending the constitution to only allow freedom for those that don't hurt your feelings.
Who is trying to take away YOUR rights? If some religions had their way they sure would.

Get off your high horse and realize WE are also entitled to hold opinions AND voice them. Yes they have the right to say whatever disgusting thing they like. Although I think racist comments are covered by Hate speech laws in most countries. They all vary, as in India, their Hate speech laws seem to be more focused on religion, and of course some countries even have blasphemy laws. Who is trying to silence whom? Whose feelings are being hurt?
I don't have to agree...THAT'S MY RIGHT. I also don't have to vote for them. That is also my right. If I think a religion is bigoted and a member of that religion is standing for government. I don't have to lump it and like it...I can vote against it for whatever reason I like. That is my right.
So yeah. They have rights. And so do we. We have the right not to be treated as s**t by THEM...unless you live in a country that has blasphemy laws of course. Then they do what they like. You have very few rights.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Wt. celebrities like Larry Graham, Prince, and the Williams sisters get pegged to all of the Wt. problems by their public comments about either 'Jehovah' or their JW faith. So it is with Tim Tebow. There are dozens of moderate Baptist Churches he could have chosen to give a motivational speech (assuming that will be the speech) that do not have the controversial positions of this particular church and its pastor.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs
You asked:

Now why should I as a humanist be concerned about your religious beliefs and the faith that has killed and enslaved hundreds of millions of people over the centuries.
That's my question to you. When I asked you for your sources, I'm doing so to confirm or deny if indeed I, Tebow, or Pastor Jeffries actually hold to the beliefs in question. You have a very long history on this board of putting words in other people's mouths. My faith has never killed or enslaved anyone.
Then you make claims that you can't back up with facts, simply to cover your own hatred.

Because I am a humanist, I want our civilization to progress and our earth to be a safe environment.
Your answer is sad and truly shows you don't believe your own garbage, nor are you able to live up to your own hypocritical standard. Are not these people as human as all the humans you seek to protect? Are they not part of that civilization and just as deserving of fairness as anyone else. Or do you see them as fair game to smear with your hatred and bigotry?
I believe murder is murder, bigotry is bigotry, hatred is hatred no matter which human does it.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

DD- Do your homework on the history of Christianity, take its subjugation and mass murder of the indigenous peoples of the Americas for starters. You were given several sources and a link on the news items, you can go to the First Baptist web site for confirmation.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

So is Tebow going to tell the crowd all about how God blessed his performance last season?
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

I'm sure this church would also welcome Marcus Bachmann and his beard wife, to come and tell them about how prayer "fixes" homosexuality.


Of course these people have the right to free speech. That's how they earn the privilege to have their "clinics" glitterbombed and lose government funding because they're quacks.
Edit to add: Freedom of speech would also allow others to sketch penises into the above image and repost the picture.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Jesus really likes Touchdowns and Quarterback sacks.
 
ohiocowboy
ohiocowboy 3 years ago

I don't understand how Tim Tebow can be against Gay people when he himself plays in a sport that has Tight Ends and Wide Receivers...
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs
You have cited NOTHING yet.
First be honest, then give your opinion.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

Did Christianity, subjugate or commit mass murder of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, or did humans?
 

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Topic Summary
quarterback tim tebow is scheduled to address the 11,000 member first baptist dallas congregation april 28th.
first baptist dallas and its outspoken pastor robert jeffries in recent times have called islam and mormonism coming from the 'pits of hell' and you can't be 'saved being a jew', although he clarified that being a jew is not the same type of hereticalness as being a mormon.....huh?.
pastor jeffries called the election of obama 'the rise of the anti-christ'.



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Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church
by designs 3 years ago 110 Replies latest 3 years ago   social current
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designs
designs 3 years ago

Humans who were Christians. You see they planted this thing called the 'Cross' on someone else's lands and well you know the rest of the story.
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 3 years ago

Cage I challenge you to find a post where I screamed "Racist" or "Homophobe". As for this thread, I haven't read all the posts, but I'm pretty sure no one called for the government to tell people what to think. They are merely (as Still Thinking said) voicing their opinions which we all have the right to do. Something which appears to upset you.
 
still thinking
still thinking 3 years ago

LOL Billy & Ohiocowboy.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs

Humans who were Christians. You see they planted this thing called the 'Cross' on someone else's lands and well you know the rest of the story.
I think you mean Humanists who called themselves "Christians", just like the JWs, who sucked you in, by hiding the cross and appealing to your humanism.
Humanism comes in many forms, atheistic and religious, and yes, the churches and cults are full of them.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

DD- At some point you have to own that Christians caused a whole lot of damage to other humans over the past 1900 years. While there is a message of 'The Golden Rule' which many follow and is genuinely helpful to others there is a core of the central Christian philosophy that is destructive and harmful to humanity.
Christianity through its many denominations has reformed its harder edges however someone like Pastor Jeffriess is one of those who still hold to some very Literal views of the Bible such as Hell and a Jesus who comes back to wipe out the non-believers. So for Tim accepting this invitation is interesting, he must agree to some extent with First Baptist and its anti-gay anti-semetic pastor.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs

DD- At some point you have to own that Christians caused a whole lot of damage to other humans over the past 1900 years. While there is a message of 'The Golden Rule' which many follow and is genuinely helpful to others there is a core of the central Christian philosophy that is destructive and harmful to humanity.
What you need to own is that the humanism in "churches" has been driving force in virtually every case, and the toleration of it in some church institutions is at the core and is to blame for the destruction and harm to humanity.


The smear job you tried to do to Tim Tebow and Pastor Jeffriess is shameful and shows bigotry on your part.

 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Just pointing out the statements made by Pastor Jeffress- see his web site, and Tim's willingness to speak at First Baptist.
As for the human reality of any christian- just shows ol Jesus doesn't do much to stop atrocities and civil rights violations in his name.
Wishing for the early rather than later demise of religion- oh absolutely
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago


Just pointing out the statements made by Pastor Jeffress- see his web site, and Tim's willingness to speak at First Baptist
That's the problem, you haven't pointed at anything but your own bigotry.

As for the human reality of any christian...
Anyone can call themselves a Christian actual believer or not, but only Christ could live it out.
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

Like most modern christians you don't want own to your christian history, a phenomena seen in our former Wt. 'church' members as well. It is a natural thing the mind does with terrible news, 'wasn't me, not my problem'.
So read or don't read Pastor Jeffress statements- your choice.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him play the saxophone
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 3 years ago

designs

Like most modern christians you don't want own to your christian history, a phenomena seen in our former Wt. 'church' members as well. It is a natural thing the mind does with terrible news, 'wasn't me, not my problem'.
Yes, good point. The WT is a perfect example of a group of religious humanists, who have abused and hurt so many in our society, and doing it in the name of their so called “christ”. I have no problem admitting that. There are also many selfrighteous HUMANISTS in mainstream Christian denominations doing the same. They have brought much shame to the church. However that doesn’t make faith in Christ the cause of the problem.

I also would think you would join me in repudiating such people, instead of spreading false reports about those who don’t deserve it. The fact that you won’t go to the trouble to quote these people in context, shows your opinion is of little value in a forum such as this.
 
tec
tec 3 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/current/246357/1/Tim-Tebow-CANCELS-Speaking-at-First-Baptist-Church-in-Dallas
 

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Topic Summary
quarterback tim tebow is scheduled to address the 11,000 member first baptist dallas congregation april 28th.
first baptist dallas and its outspoken pastor robert jeffries in recent times have called islam and mormonism coming from the 'pits of hell' and you can't be 'saved being a jew', although he clarified that being a jew is not the same type of hereticalness as being a mormon.....huh?.
pastor jeffries called the election of obama 'the rise of the anti-christ'.



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by OrphanCrow 8 months ago



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Cult Statistics: JWs vs Mormons
by cameo-d 7 years ago 7 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower bible
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cameo-d
cameo-d 7 years ago

How does this compare with JW statistics?
Mormon missionaries=50,000
Latin America=biggest growth

What are other similarities between Mormons and JWs? What do they have in common?

(Reuters) - Mormonism is growing in Latin America where new members are attracted by such factors as the church's affluence and stability, as well as its family image and the belief that Jesus Christ visited the Americas after he was resurrected.

The following are facts about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon church is formally called:

* The once-isolated group, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, is one of the fastest-growing and most affluent religions. More than half of its 13.5 million members live outside the United States.

* The Mormon flock is flourishing in Latin America, especially in Mexico and Brazil, with some 5.2 million members and 5,500 chapels.

* The Mormon church has distinctly American origins. It was founded in 1830 in upstate New York by Joseph Smith, who said he received the word of God from an angel named Moroni, who guided him to tablets that told the story of the Book of Mormon about an ancient civilization of Israelites sent by God to America. A year later, he was persecuted and forced to flee to the Midwest, where he was killed. His followers then undertook a mass 1,100-mile (1,800-km) migration in 1846-47 to Utah.

* Mormons have three books of scripture other than the Bible. One is the Book of Mormon, which Mormons believe was translated from golden plates discovered by Smith. Adherents decline to use alcohol, coffee and tobacco.

* The Mormon church originally allowed polygamy. The custom was officially banned in 1890 when Washington, angered by its spread, threatened to deny statehood to Utah. Today, Mormon leaders distance themselves from about 40,000 breakaway Mormons in Utah and nearby states who illegally continue the practice.

* Today, about 50,000 missionaries -- often young men in business suits walking the world's streets in pairs -- project a wholesome, family-oriented image that has helped swell global Mormon adherents by 36 percent from 1995 to 2005.

(Compiled by Jason Szep and Fiona Ortiz)
 
moshe
moshe 7 years ago

You can get something for free from the Mormons. A neighbor lady of mine had two young Mormon girls call on her and when they found out she was a widow they came back and raked all of her leaves for her that fall. I have never known of JW's to do that!
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 years ago

Neither believes in the Trinity.
Both are commonly viewed as cults.
Mormons do excommunicate (not like the JWs, but not like a lot of mainline churches either.) Mormons can quietly leave. Excommunicated Mormons are not shunned by order of their authority figures, although some are shunned in fact. LDS will speak to former LDS, though they may feel uncomfortable, they are in no trouble with their bishops or the heirarchy of the church, so it is a personal decision, not a congregational one.
Both have a high rate of leaving/inactivity. They baptise many more than stay active or engaged in the religion.
 
Quandry
Quandry 7 years ago

At least the mormons have a big choir that sings Christmas songs. They sound great. The witnesses have the same canned music all the time.....
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 7 years ago

You can get something for free from the Mormons. A neighbor lady of mine had two young Mormon girls call on her and when they found out she was a widow they came back and raked all of her leaves for her that fall. I have never known of JW's to do that!
::::::::::::::::::::::::.
"For free"? When you have to pay tithe?
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

The difference between JW statistics and Mormon statistics is that Mormon statistics are a load of crap.
Because they only count publishers JWs consistently understate the number of adherents.
Mormons on the other hand baptise people within 6 weeks of contact, and count them as members for the rest of their lives whether they ever attend another Mormon service or not. This means that the vast majority of people who are counted as Mormons do not think of themselves as Mormons, most have got on with their lives, and many of them probably attend different churches.
Take Mexico as just one example (any other country show the same pattern).
Jehovah's Witnesses claim about 600,000 publisher in Mexico. But the latest census in 2000 showed that over 1,000,000 identified themselves as JWs.
Compare that with Mormons who claim to have over a 1,000,000 members in Mexico. But how many identified themselves as Mormons in the census? Only 205,000. That means in that one country alone the Mormon Church claims 5 times more adherents than it actually has.
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/prod_serv/contenidos/espanol/bvinegi/productos/censos/poblacion/2000/definitivos/Nal/tabulados/00re01.pdf
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_mormonmembership.html
The idea that the Mormon Church is having any increase at all these days is a sign of a successful media campaign rather than a sign of real success. In truth there are fewer Mormons than there are Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide, and while Jehovah's Witnesses still have modest growth the indications are that the Mormon Church started to decline a few years ago.
 
poppers
poppers 7 years ago

You can get something for free from the Mormons. A neighbor lady of mine had two young Mormon girls call on her and when they found out she was a widow they came back and raked all of her leaves for her that fall. I have never known of JW's to do that!
That very thing happened to me a year ago. Two Morman missionaries came up to me when I was outside and the first thing they said was, "Is there anything we can do to help you around here?" I said they could help me rake my lawn, and they did. Whenever they are here they ask if there is anything I need help with before talking about their "thing". Two doors away I have JW neighbors; in the 30 years they have lived there they haven't once even greeted me.
 
Tuesday
Tuesday 7 years ago

Both produced family musical groups
The JWs produced the Jackson 5
The Mormons produced The Osmonds
That right there should show you which is more destructive.
 

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Encounter With Two Lovely, Smiling Jehovah's Witness Ladies
by snapdragon4 8 years ago 28 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw experiences
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snapdragon4
snapdragon4 8 years ago

I’ve viewed this site from time to time over the years and thought it was about time I made a contribution.
Last Monday morning, glorious day, I was on the phone when the doorbell rang. Two happy, smiling Jehovah’s Witness ladies. They agreed to call back in ten minutes. Time to prepare.
I hastily terminated the call and looked around the living room for signs of incriminating evidence. Crisis of Conscience was best removed from the bookcase I decided, could be a conversation stopper at this stage, but I positioned Steve Hassan’s “Combatting Cult Mind Control” prominently as a bookend near where the two ladies would be sitting.
I marshalled my thoughts as to the strategy to be adopted. Taking in all I had learned about mind control, from Don Cameron’s excellent “Captives of a Concept” and from the wisdom and experience exhibited on this forum.
So, I resolved, listen to what they had to say, establish rapport, establish my agenda not theirs, don’t attack JW beliefs directly but use a third party example, the Mormons would be excellent, don’t get Bible out and argue scripture but ask questions, questions, questions about JW history and development. Above all, be kind, gracious and love them to death.
I spent a couple of minutes on the doorstep listening to their presentation, and then invited them in, sat them down, introduced myself and got on first name terms, offered them a coffee, informed them I was new to the area, was a committed Christian and now attended a local evangelical church. I enquired as to each of their religious journeys, Ruth was born in, Rachel was a convert. ( In Watchtower tradition, names have been changed).
Maintaining the initiative I explained my interest in comparative religion, especially those that developed in nineteenth century America, and asked what they knew about the Mormons. Angel Moroni, book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc. It was fairly straightforward to get them to agree that Mormonism wasn’t the “one true faith,” that many Mormon claims were fraudulent so essentially it was a hoax.
So far, so good. I then asked why they thought the fraudulent claims were no obstacle to 8 million Mormons sincerely believing the hoax, which led nicely into a discussion on mind control. Picking up Hassan’s book I read a little section under each of the four essential elements of mind control - behaviour control, thought control, emotional control, information control. I fear I may have choked slightly when I quoted from page 61 under thought control “In totalistic cults, the ideology is internalised as the truth, the only map of reality”. Resolved not to overplay my hand.
I enquired as to the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and was informed Charles Taze Russell, but when I followed up with a question as to the identity of the leadership today neither Ruth nor Rachel was able to name a single member of the Governing Body. I gave an incredulous stare and mocked gently which they took in good humour.
To keep this short, suffice to say I asked various other questions about the history of the movement and was given the booklet Jehovah’s Witnesses, Who Are They, What Do They Believe. Page 6 is all about their modern development and growth. Assurances were given they would be back soon for my views.
Hopefully, to be continued.
Snapdragon4
Excellent resource on Mormonism “When Beliefs Collapse” by Monte Wolverton, Plain Truth Magazine
 
DaCheech
DaCheech 8 years ago

congrats.
when they come, don't ask them if you can start the meeting with your prayer!!!
 
compound complex
compound complex 8 years ago

Greetings and welcome, Snapdragon!
Excellent work ... we look forward to the next installment.
CoCo
 
Honesty
Honesty 8 years ago

but when I followed up with a question as to the identity of the leadership today neither Ruth nor Rachel was able to name a single member of the Governing Body.

No, it can't be true.

Who in their right mind will hand over their conscience to someone whose name(s) they don't even know?
 
jgnat
jgnat 8 years ago

Hubby has been regaling me with his field service experiences. It's boredom times five, isn't it? I'll betcha anything the girls were high-fiving on their way out, as well. They got themselves a "live one".
 
The Oracle
The Oracle 8 years ago

Hey Snapdragon,
Great experience so far! Very well done. You are doing a nice job of not scaring away the fish while laying the groundwork for what will hopefully be a life changing experience for both of them.
Looking forward to the RV report.
The Oracle
 
DaCheech
DaCheech 8 years ago

the girls were high-fiving on their way out, as well. They got themselves a "live one".
yeah, you just made the service meeting experience of the month
 
Summer wine
Summer wine 8 years ago

I would not have been able to give a name of one of the governing body either !!
Well done.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 8 years ago

Hopefully the end result will be two less witlesses.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 8 years ago

LOL!!@Jgnat..That is soooooooooooooo funny girl!......Chances of any JW,actually having a meaningful conversation at a door..Are "slim to none"................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW
 
sweetstuff
sweetstuff 8 years ago

Congrats, when they come back, please make sure to ask them about the anointed 144,000, are they the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses? What? They aren't? But doesn't the bible say these ones were to be co-rulers with Christ? Surely they have some significant role in the day to day running of congregational matter?

Watch em squirm at that one, hehe.
 
Awakened07
Awakened07 8 years ago

I think, after having been witnessed to for a while, I would (if I had the cojones) have asked them if angels are leading them in their work to reach those who are 'right minded'. If they would answer 'Yes', I would say: "Well - it so happens that I used to be a Witness, am now out of it and am never going back. While it can be said that I wasn't upfront about it and therefore possibly told a white lie, I am wondering why the angels led you to me, where you have now wasted a considerable amount of your time?"
A little cruel perhaps, but I'm curious as to what their reply would be, if anything.
 
outofthebox
outofthebox 8 years ago

Nice... Is like the Bible says: snapdragon4 planted, Apollos watered but God let them free.
 
outofthebox
outofthebox 8 years ago

Nice... Is like the Bible says: snapdragon4 planted, Apollos watered but God let them free.
 
oompa
oompa 8 years ago

hahaha...just loved that read...you got skills there snappy..........please do more.........oompa
 
badboy
badboy 8 years ago

I COULD DEFINATELY ASK THEM SOME GOOD QUESTIONS
 
ldrnomo
ldrnomo 8 years ago

I am standing by for part two, Tell them from what you read in the pamphlet they gave you it seems like they believe only JW's will survive armageddon.
Then ask, does that mean God is going to KILL inocent men, women and children who are not Jehovah witnesses?
LD
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 8 years ago

Looking forward to the next installment! Hello and welcome, by the way!
 
sweet pea
sweet pea 8 years ago

Snapdragon4!! Nesrly fell off my chair when I saw it was you! The poster whose first post was the fax number of Bethel no less! Great experience - go to the top of the class!
You should post more often, this board would benefit greatly from your insight and experiences with your
family.
How are you dear friend?
Sam
 
snapdragon4
snapdragon4 8 years ago

but when I followed up with a question as to the identity of the leadership today neither Ruth nor Rachel was able to name a single member of the Governing Body.
Honesty
Unbelievable I know. They didn't have a clue. As a result, they were very embarrassed. Should they return, I'll pursue this point for all it's worth.
Snapdragton4
 

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Encounter With Two Lovely, Smiling Jehovah's Witness Ladies
by snapdragon4 8 years ago 28 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw experiences
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snapdragon4
snapdragon4 8 years ago

Hi Guys Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated. Outofthebox Nice... Is like the Bible says: snapdragon4 planted, Apollos watered but God let them free. Absolutely - only God can make it grow! Snapdragon4
 
ninja
ninja 8 years ago

well done snapster....giving them respect and showing kindness will go a long way......loving it....da ninja
 
Farkel
Farkel 8 years ago

Next time they stop by, ask them why their Kingdom Halls don't have any windows.
Farkel
 
AWAKE&WATCHING
AWAKE&WATCHING 8 years ago

*sticky note*
 
hubert
hubert 8 years ago

Welcome, Snapdragon.
Sure wish my daughter would stop at your house.
Hubert
 
changeling
changeling 8 years ago

Welcome snapdragon!
Way to go!
changeling :smile:
 
darth frosty
darth frosty 8 years ago

There is always the subtle changes they have made to the bible to promote their agenda, you can bring up later. I like the recent post how the initial study and comparisons of JW bible to other s, shows no difference in versus. Once they have you hook is where the bait and switch comes into play and their adjusted scriptures.
 
dogisgod
dogisgod 8 years ago

Great job Snappy and welcome!!!!
 
Snoozy
Snoozy 8 years ago

I think when we see Wtinesses on the area we should have XJW material ready to fold and put on their windshields!...
Any recommendations as to what?
They came by my daughters house this morning while I was there...they parked in front of the house and started to go across the street. 2 men and 2 women. The women looked rediculous. They looked like the mormons that are getting so much publicity. Long hair, long skirts.
Anyway we let the 150 pounds plus dogs (2) out to go "Potty" (lol). The witnesses went down one side and up the other and stopped at the house next door. Didn't even attempt to come to my daughters house. But I was wishing I had printed some material to put on their windshield while they were down the street.
Memo to self...look up some windshield material...
Snoozy...
 

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Topic Summary
ive viewed this site from time to time over the years and thought it was about time i made a contribution.. last monday morning, glorious day, i was on the phone when the doorbell rang.
two happy, smiling jehovahs witness ladies.
they agreed to call back in ten minutes.



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The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message
by drew sagan 8 years ago 94 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

In many ways it appears as if the Watchtower movement is slowing down. A number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the Watchtower is in a period of transition.
 They have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books. They have sent home many workers from their largest operation in Brooklyn New York. They have acknowledged there are not enough people within the faith stepping up to fill leadership roles (A few years ago they began to tell their congregations publicly that there was a need for 30,000 - 40,000 Elders and Ministerial servants). Because of this void there is a strain on those currently in leadership roles, and the Watchtower has begun to cut back on it's scheduled meetings in order to relieve it.
 There are other things as well. Baptism numbers are not as impressive as they used to be, especially when compared to the average peak publisher hours. Such comparisons show that while many people are being added to the Watchtower ranks, they are also loosing many members at the same time. There have also been changes in Watchtower policy regarding the counting of field service time, lowering the bar for more people to be counted as publishers. Depending upon how many people are taking advantage of this arrangement, the Watchtowers growth statics could be even more bleak than they currently appear.
 I think these things (as well as many others) suggest that the Watchtower movement is in a very tumultuous position. Much of which I feel has to do with the growing irrelevance of their message.
 There is very basic problem with religions that are based around specific apocalyptic speculation, namely that eventually those within the movement get tired of hearing that the 'end is near'.
 Think of it this way. Who were the type of people in the late 1800's and early 1900's that joined the Bible Student/JW movement? Were they really interested in joining a religion that was over 120 years old? No! They wanted to be part of something that was new and exciting. Russell provided that during his lifetime, and Rutherford provided something so different from Russell that he kept the excitement going.
 But the Watchtower has since become much more of an institution now. They are an 'established' faith. The problem is that their message does not reflect it.
 Apocalyptic obsessions work great during the foundation of a group. They help bring together passion and excitement. But drawn out over the long term they can be very tiring. Look how much people sacrificed for the JW faith in the early part of the 20th century. Now look at were the movement is today. It has become much more routine. It follows a very predictable pattern.
 A number of other groups eventually figured out that they could not obsess over the end of the world. It may have been what started the movement, but they would not continue to allow it to dominate. The transition experienced in Mormonism I think is a quite telling one. They have been quite successful in not letting their apocalyptic speculations get in the way of the future of the church.
 But the Watchtower has not caught on, yet. They continue to discourage college when they should be starting the process of (gasp) starting their own. They call on members to consider a life without children when they should be telling people to grow nice big families full of true believers.
 They continue to think short term. It is obvious that they still actually believe the end of the world is close. Amazingly, this dedication to their end times speculation could possibly tear apart the entire movement. Rather than planning for the future they are taking the risk of hoping the end comes before they have to deal with it.
 Will they adapt and begin to plan for the future, or will they fade into disorganization and confusion. Time will tell. One thing is for sure, unless the movement begins to make some major changes like other contemporary institutions have, it is troubled times ahead.
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 8 years ago

Very interesting take! Never thought about the established organization vs. the message before.
Thank you for this.
 
purplesofa
purplesofa 8 years ago

Will they adapt and begin to plan for the future, or will they fade into disorganization and confusion.
They already are.
purps
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

They already are.
Are they really? So far what I have seen has been defensive action, not offensive. They are cutting back rather than adding.
 The movement needs something new and fresh. This may yet come but it sure has not appeared yet.
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 8 years ago

Nice write-up, drew. I agree that the WTS just does not get it, or understand their place in society. They want all sorts of benefits given fom society, but don't want to contribute to it or change it.
 
purplesofa
purplesofa 8 years ago

I find it hard to believe that people really think the organization is going to crumble. We can put huge dents in it as apostates.
It's a multi-billion dollar business.
Those men running the place are not stupid.
They are changing and adapting. All businesses do that. Religions do to.
Unless you think the planet will come to a higher consciousness and be done away with religion, I think the WT is here to stay.
purps

edited to add: I do agree with what you say, I just don't think they will crumble and fall, not anytime soon anyway.
 
hillbilly
hillbilly 8 years ago

I see a shift from "retail" religion to "mail order" for the WT in the coming future. The message is a parody now days.. suitable for info-mercials and cd sales.
Buildings, meetings, and congregated people take time away from the "message"... a Kingdom Hall is not a profit center.
The Lawyers have it all figured out.
Hill
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

I do agree with what you say, I just don't think they will crumble and fall, not anytime soon anyway.
First of all, I'd like to be very clear. I do not believe that people who have left the organization, aka "apostates" will be the demise of the Watchtower Society in a way that many would assume. First, I think that the role of ex-jws is much more important in regards to the many people that end up not entering the Watchtower system at all. People who may be studying or interested in the faith, but after doing research on the net decide not to.
 Also, I am not looking in the short term. I'm thinking more of 30-50 years down the road. Were will the movement be then? I really believe that it fundamentally has to change dramatically. The current structure, or even something that closely resembles it is not prepared to support such a drawn out presence on the world scene. One thing I continue to think of is the youth of the movement. They continue to tell the youth to reach out for positions and privileges they never can receive (gilead, CO, ect), not to mention that usually most of the prestige is given to men. The youth in this organization have nothing realistic that they can reach out and take as their own. This is a huge mistake on the Watchtowers part and shows me that they are not as sophisticated and intelligent as their image may suggest. Smart people plan for the future. Stupid people insist that there will be no future (in this world). I remember a five or so years back the Watchtower published a brochure for their youth that told them all the privileges they could reach out for. It was unrealistic. Gilead for example graduates two classes a year I believe, and those people are usually in their 30's. What the hell kind of goal is that! Work for a decade and a half after high school and maybe you can go to a school with only 100 students. Get real. Nobody reaches out because there is nothing to reach out and take.
 Currently the Watchtower is on a path of growing isolation. They are becoming more and more disengaged from the world around them. They control the flow of all information and have restricted what is published on the internet. Rather than engage those who criticize them they ignore the critics and suppress intellectuals from going out and defending the faith on an academic level. They have gone from the time of Russell where debates occurred frequently by those in charge of the articles in the magazines, to complete isolation by the writers of the magazines. We don't even know who writes the articles. They are no names, isolated from any criticism and academic responsibility. It may serve a purpose, but not in the long term.
 What I picture is a continued weakening of the Watchtowers power over the average member. Eventually more and more people like Greg Stafford are going to start popping up saying that the group has lost it's way and needs to reform. It is people like him who are really the most dangerous to the Watchtower Society. While many who leave argue that all of the teachings of the JWs are wrong, people like Stafford maintain much of the theological doctrine.
 When reformers try to take over a faith it can descent into confusion. This is possible if the WTS allows itself to weaken during the next 30-50 years. The problem is that in order to solidify the movement and push it forward it will have to begin to give up long held taboos and teachings. They can change, and may yet still. But I see nothing that suggests it's on its' way yet. Just more isolationism which amounts to denying the obvious.
 
hamilcarr
hamilcarr 8 years ago

One thing is for sure, unless the movement begins to make some major changes like other contemporary institutions have, it is troubled times ahead.
Spot on! They'll have to embrace change, or perish.
But that's the problem: a restorationist group doesn't like change (every change could be interpreted as another apostasy). It could mean their end. I don't think they'll reach the 22st century.
 
restrangled
restrangled 8 years ago

Think of it this way. Who were the type of people in the late 1800's and early 1900's that joined the Bible Student/JW movement? Were they really interested in joining a religion that was over 120 years old? No! They wanted to be part of something that was new and exciting. Russell provided that during his lifetime, and Rutherford provided something so different from Russell that he kept the excitement going.
This is so true. I think even in the 60's leading up to the mid 70's the excitement still held. As a child I remember there was a feeling in the air, many new releases, armaggedon was just around the corner, you could hear a pin drop between some speaker's pauses. People would attend 8 day assemblies, from 9am to 9pm. The food was good, there were 2 hour breaks and you could still buy food during the talks because there were so many to feed. There was a real connection between everyone. Most of the talks were about predicting the future and getting the message out to others.
Now what I hear from my 73 year old parent are statements that contain, I don't know if I can sit through another one, I can't wait to get home, when I hear amen I'm outta there! She use to feel charged up, now it all just exhausts her.
I don't see the same anticipation or excitment out of any family members still in....just endless plodding through the weekly schedule of meetings, requirements, and the dreaded 3 day assemblies.
r.
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

Interesting take. But I do have to agree that they may recognize the need to change in some way. It appears to me that they have noticed a loss and are downsizing because of it. So, what they may be doing is working on retaining what they have.
Making subtle changes that appeal to the members may keep them afloat longer until they can recooperate and establish another plan. Their message is loosing its hold on members and is not interesting enough to attract new ones. They will have to re-evaluate this thinking in order to be attractive to others.
The last couple of congo's I attended were showing decreasing numbers. Since I used to be their account servant I do not know how they stay afloat.
The crippling economy has to be a burden on their donations worldwide. This will no doubt affect the size of their major money makers, DC's and CC's. People who are feeling the pinch may not have the means for accomodations to attend.
 
Awakened at Gilead
Awakened at Gilead 8 years ago

Excellent points, Drew...
I would add that the distance in time from 1914 only adds to the irrelevance. 1914 would have made sense had the end come in the 40's and 50's, maybe even 60's or 70's... bit since then, and especially since the restructuring of the generation doctrine, 1914 has become quite irrelevant...WTS's fixation on that date contributed to my awakening.
A@G
 
Awakened07
Awakened07 8 years ago

They are running on fumes, but those fumes are potent and have an intoxicating effect on their members, and even those on the fringes.
The fumes they are running on is fear, and the inevitable (seeming) increase in reports worldwide of wars, famine, bad weather, etc. The world wide population has increased from about 2,5 billion to about 7 billion since 1950. In addition, reports are now sent world wide in a matter of seconds. Put two and two together, and you get: more cramped space, more people living in disaster prone areas and competing for the same resources, and a much more effective media machine telling us about every minute detail from all over the globe every second of the day.
This is enough to keep the witnesses looking out their kitchen windows for "armageddon clouds", and enough for those on the fringes to intermittently come back when the shit from time to time hits the fan.
Fear.
 
done4good
done4good 8 years ago

Very good post, Drew.
I tend to be of the camp that thinks that all of the "defensive" stuff the WTS is doing, is, in fact preparing for its future. I have stated on another post recently, (the long one about the current education edict), that the changes being made may seem disjointed, but, in reality are all related.
Consider what is going on...A major clampdown on information control, (i.e. Sept '07 KM and "Kool Aid" WTs), A reduction in meeting length, and the elimination of a meeting. Then finally, (most recently), the talk of removing elders and MSs if they "encourage" higher education, (in spite of a huge need for qualified brothers). The fact is they expect and want to loose members who won't sell the party line. These people are a threat to the long term well being of the org.
They have figured out that they simply are far worse off having those that are capable of thinking for themselves in the organization. Let's purge them now, shrink the congos, sell off properties, make some profit on them, then figure out how to exist for the next several decades. This is what is really going on behind the scenes.
Remember, about two years ago, a poster, (I believe it was Arthur), posted about a conversation that took place with a GB member that basically said that "big changes" were comming, and if anyone in the org. dosen't accept change, then they would not last in the org very long. That statement seems to make it obvious to me that they simply don't want, (or care about), anyone in the org who could potentially screw up their long term plans.
Yes, they will in fact need to reinvent themselves for survival...they just may be doing that with a completely different member base than they currently have.
j
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Very interesting points done4good.
 If your conclusions are true and their long term plan follows along what you are suggesting, then they are doomed. It is nothing more than isolationism and will not survive. That is the basic premise behind my post. Using apocalyptic belief as the foundation of your movement is very unwise. It offers nothing but disappointment. The JW youth are already showing that they barely believe the message. Yes they may verbalize it, but their behavior tells a different story.
 As Awakened at Gilead pointed out, the growing distance between the current generation of people on earth and 1914 continues to grow each year. The type of people who would have joined the JWs in the early 1900's through the 1930's would never join the JWs today. They are the type of people who latch onto movements with much more modern relevance. Compare that with a group that may arise tomorrow and begin to proclaim that the end is year. They don't have a 100+ year history of failed expectations, the Watchtower does. The longer you proclaim the end is near, the less people tend to take seriously your opinion.
 Think about it. The most exciting thing according to the Watchtower at this point is what happened in it's past. There is nothing to look forward to but cataclysmic change. Yet in the past the movement had the entire world before it. It was in the past they were chosen by God (supposedly) and refined. It was in the past that all the magic happened. Once they set up ministries in all countries are now in waiting mode.
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 8 years ago

Nice thread,?Drew.
My ex-wife, a JW since the 1950s, told me the other day, "It's happening all around the Earth just like it's supposed to." I assumed she was talking about the earthquake and wars. That's what the WTS is pushing now. The fear.
You can only run on fear and expectations of immediate biblical events for so long with nothing happening, and I think the WTS has pushed it to the limit and beyond.
S4
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

S4
They are chewing their cud.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

I think the WTS has pushed it to the limit and beyond.
And unlike other times in the organizations past, the organization is not flexible enough to rapidly move in another direction. It can now be likened to the titanic. It must be turned slowly and cautiously. To many changes to quickly may weaken current members, not enough change hurts the chances of future survival. Will they get the balance right?
 
M.J.
M.J. 8 years ago

Great points Drew.
I think you have a great point about the future of the organization. The approach of 2014 will be very interesting.
I agree that the org is not as competent as many give them credit for. Time after time you can see that all their changes are REACTIVE rather than proactive.




The basis of the movement stated with the "new and exciting" MESSAGE, a break from the "blind traditions" of the churches.
Gradually the MESSENGER was elevated to the status of the message itself.
By now, JWs are simply adherents of "The Faithful, Discreet Slave"...Blind tradition followers themselves.
 
White Dove
White Dove 8 years ago

If they would just quit kicking people out and ruining their lives, they may be able to grow.
 

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The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message
by drew sagan 8 years ago 94 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Blueblades
Blueblades 8 years ago

Drew, you make a lot of sense. I'm in agreement with your thinking on your topic.
When was the last time that the writing dept. gave an in-depth watchtower study on it's original theme on the front of the Watchtower?
"Announcing Jehovah"s Kingdom". I remember back in the seventies when the articles were 30 to 40 paragraphs long on such topics as the Kingdom.
Now, there is very small talk about 'Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom'. What is the Watchtower's message today?
Go to meetings, go out in field service, wait for the Great Tribulation to come anytime soon. And they haven't had a good study on the Great Tribulation recently either.
So, your right, your topic about the growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message is spot on!
Blueblades
 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 8 years ago

They say "Preach more" while they say Matthew 14:24 is fulfilled. It is double talk like this that will kill the movement. People will become embittered as they see the changes in so many fundamental areas continue. "Preach the word, be at it vigorously" has been their credo, but the reality is.. it ain't so urgent any more. Disasters here and there will rile them up, but in the long run disappointment will overtake them. The sooner the better. W.Once
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 8 years ago

The changes that the WTS are making corporate-side foretell the changes they'll continue to make with the actual religion: Downsizing, streamlining, liquidating, shrinking. In other words, they'll happily grow smaller if they can achieve long-term fiscal and congregational sustainability. They would be happier with fewer members if it means they would have a stronger core. That's been their corporate strategy since around 2000, and will continue to lead commensurate changes among the management of the religion.
 
done4good
done4good 8 years ago

The changes that the WTS are making corporate-side foretell the changes they'll continue to make with the actual religion: Downsizing, streamlining, liquidating, shrinking. In other words, they'll happily grow smaller if they can achieve long-term fiscal and congregational sustainability. They would be happier with fewer members if it means they would have a stronger core. That's been their corporate strategy since around 2000, and will continue to lead commensurate changes among the management of the religion.
Yup. That's the way I see it. A smaller core is far easier to manage, (whatever doctrinal direction they decide to go in), so keep the drones, drop the intellectuals, and hope for the best...
j
 
Amber Rose
Amber Rose 8 years ago

They would be happier with fewer members if it means they would have a stronger core.
The problem is how strong is their core and is that core sustainable.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 8 years ago

You have made an excellent series of posts Drew. I agree with a lot of the points made. Especially the astute point that their genuine belief that we are near the end may be what is holding the leadership back from making needed reforms. This flies in the face of the apparent consensus view among JWDers that many in the leadership do not believe their own propaganda. I think you are right on the button that they do believe it (the vast majority anyway, there are probably some in high positions who don't believe or have strong doubts) and that their belief is harmful to what we might term a more organisationally productive strategy for the future.
I wonder if you are interested in some of the theoretical literature that discusses Watchtower change, and lack thereof.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_n4_v56/ai_17841569/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
This one is well worth reading if you have access to an academic library or online access:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1388177
A small point about having babies in the 'time of the end'. I think the Watchtower has made some movement in this area. In the past having children was strongly discouraged at times, whereas now family life with children is often promoted as the ideal. Singleness is still called a 'gift' and so on, but it gets rather more perfunctory mention these days, and there is a definite shift in emphasis I think.
It will be very interesting to see how the organisation develops in the decades to come. There may be some surprises in store along the way. But whatever the future holds I seriously doubt we will see anything resembling the end of Jehovah's Witnesses within any of our lifetimes.
 
The Oracle
The Oracle 8 years ago

great thread Mr. Carey.
I agree with just about everything you have commented on.
I do think that the WT, to whatever extent and speed that it can, is making moves to adapt. The changes of late are rather significant, and I do see a growing trend to "normalize" the religion as much as possible.
The weakening stance on some of the more extreme teachings like;

1) the generation that will not pass away (this core doctrine was completely abandoned)
2) prohibition of blood (allowing fractions was a major shift in direct contradiction to prior edicts)
3) disfellowshipping (I have noted a general softening in this area through meetings with CO's and elder school lessons)
4) attending a worldly wedding in a church is now a conscience matter, etc.. etc... (more and more practices which were once explicitly outlawed in the past have become "conscience matters")
Don't get me wrong - the teachings of the WTS are still cracked. However, there is no question there has been an attempt of late to eliminate more of the extreme beliefs and practices.
Too little too late? I believe so. Let the crumbling begin.
The Oracle
 
M.J.
M.J. 8 years ago

:That's what the WTS is pushing now. The fear.
If the FEAR is primarily what the WTS runs on nowadays, then they are in trouble.

Recently, a former member of the International Church of Christ explained to me some interesting observations he had regarding his former group.
As many of you may know, this movement essentially broke up a number of years ago (although Kip is trying to get it going again).
He explained that the movement was primarily built on the fear of losing your salvation.
If you motivate someone out of fear, there is a very quick response: if someone screams "fire!", people respond by running really fast...for a really short period of time. Amazing things can be done in short bursts based on fear. The problem was that it wasn't sustainable. Thus, many would go strong with the program for about three years, and just burn out, give up hope...and drop out.
On the other hand, this particular member simply started to take the screams of "fire!" with a grain of salt...and eventually after years in the group it started to sound like the screams from the boy who cried wolf. Thus the message became less and less relevant.
So his take was that a group can't rely solely on fear-based motivation or they'll fizzle out.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 8 years ago

done4good may be right. scary proposition, but can the "new Iran" at Bethel ever get strong enough to pull off a major wake-up call?
Only with a leader more charismatic than Ted Jaracz, which might sound pretty easy considering the man's severe mental limitations, is still a long shot away. The current GB won't appoint anyone that even whiffs of rivalry. He will have to be snuck in. Hmmm...
Randy
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

My ex-wife, a JW since the 1950s, told me the other day, "It's happening all around the Earth just like it's supposed to."
Imagine what she'd have thought if she'd been an adult during WWII. To say nothing of the 14th Century, when a third of Europe died of the Black Plague and bodies were stacked like cordwood and burned.
And what will today's dubs will say in a decade or two, when the next wave of peace and prosperity breaks out and scientific and medical advances once undreamed of are announced?
Of course, it's hard to be too critical; we were there, once.
 
Zico
Zico 8 years ago

I think you've got this spot on Drew. Looking at my old Congregation, I just can't imagine how it can still be going strong in 30 years if the Organisation doesn't change the structure at all, when I see the people who will be running it in a few years, the people in my age group, I just know not enough will be able to continue the expansion. Example, the youngest elder/MS who was not raised in the religion is in his early 50s (The PO, SO, and Sec are all retired, in their 60s/70s.) There a few elders in there 30s, and MSs in their 20s, but ALL of them were raised in the religion. There hasn't been a non-foreign adult brought into my Congregation in years.
Where will they bring outside people in? With a 37% retention rate, they cannot depend on those raised in forever.
 
Gayle
Gayle 8 years ago

It's slowly eroding, which is still good to see. Of course, the USSR was slowly eroding for a while, and yet still when the Wall was torn down, I stood watching on TV, awestruck! So maybe it's possible.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

If you motivate someone out of fear, there is a very quick response: if someone screams "fire!", people respond by running really fast...for a really short period of time. Amazing things can be done in short bursts based on fear. The problem was that it wasn't sustainable. Thus, many would go strong with the program for about three years, and just burn out, give up hope...and drop out.
 On the other hand, this particular member simply started to take the screams of "fire!" with a grain of salt...and eventually after years in the group it started to sound like the screams from the boy who cried wolf. Thus the message became less and less relevant.
 So his take was that a group can't rely solely on fear-based motivation or they'll fizzle out.
Exactly!
 I like the phrase "unsustainable". I think that says it all.
 Again I go back to the Mormon model. I think that they seriously have done an excellent job at planning ahead. They are light years ahead of the Witnesses.
 For those that think that some of the changes they have made recently are a big deal, I would ask you to consider those changes in a much larger context. It may be a big deal for a JW when the structure of a meeting changes, but it is nothing more than novelty. This can be said for most of the changes put forward by the Watchtower so far. They definitely show that things are slowing down, but beyond that they show no real desire for change. They may only help in slowing down the process, but cannot stop it let alone reverse it.
 I would also like to comment on the idea that the WTS is hoping to scale down to a "core" of true believers. I wonder if such a thing actually exists. From my own personal experience very few people I ever knew as JWs could really be considered "core" believers. Most were going along with the flow, under the pressure from family and friends. Sure they believed it, but their activity levels were more the result from the fear they would have a negative label attached to themselves and their families. If the GB thinks they can scale back to a 'core' they are going to find themselves pretty lonely.
 
yknot
yknot 8 years ago

While I don't see any current GB member having the 'right stuff' to truly lead, Ted or loyalty to Ted might be a factor.
However I know there are many in my generation who are diehard reformists, what impact they will make in the next 25 years is yet to be seen.
Sadly I am sure even I could write more invigorating articles using cut/paste from the WT CD & CDs from Freeminds.
There hasn't been spiritual leadership since the mid-80s, just the coasting of old men who occassionally fall asleep at the wheel.
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

Are we seeing last ditch efforts here?
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 8 years ago

Drew, about the "core"... The core is what I grew up in, with the very devout and strict JWs. They are there, but they are the minority, I believe. Perhaps there's no cut and dry core to fall back on, but the organization is scaling back and their (published) numbers will begin to note this. Even if a supposed "core" can't be achieved, smaller numbers will enable them to enforce their policies more effectively.
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 8 years ago

In addition, I agree that most of the organizational managers do believe they are part of God's organization. However, that belief does not extend evenly over every policy and doctrinal matter. Everyone has their own realms of doubt and avoids or explores them accordingly. I believe most GB members believe they are doing the right thing... but its hard to think they actually believe they are God's chosen channel. Likely, they never achieve the level of introspection it takes to acknowledge that they might not be his channel.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 8 years ago

Very interesting thread.
Imo the main problem from a long-range perspective is that they haven't got any positive "appeal product" independent from eschatology, that would both attract and retain "customers" to them rather than to any other religious group -- as all groups which successfully survived early short-term expectations, like early Christianity or the SDA, had.
Apart from eschatology their originality is essentially negative: no Trinity, no immortal soul, no hell, no blood, no birthdays, and so on. What positive reason (beside mere group dynamics, from "love bombing" to fear of social exclusion) is there for anyone to become or remain a JW apart from eschatology? Strictly none imo.
So unless they find out and successfully develop such an "appeal product" which would stand out from concurrent groups and yet be unrelated to eschatology, I think they are doomed in the long term.
Perhaps the extant defensive and reductionist policy reflects an objective agreement between those that truly believe "the end is near" and those who know that there is no viable future for the organisation, awaiting for some "genius idea" to take them out of the dead end -- whether that eventually happens or not.
 
M.J.
M.J. 8 years ago

DS, let's not forget one factor, however.
The group definitely relies on a constant stream of recruits coming in WHO ARE NEW TO THE MESSAGE. It's these folks who bring in enthusiasm, cause they haven't lived through the years of the same ol', same ol'. Even if the message seems kind of weird, being based on some far-out 1914 mumbo-jumbo, the seeming chaos presented by the media still helps clinch the deal.
This is what has carried them throughout the years, I would imagine.
The long term members, by default, are the "hard core" ones. The group does a great job of disenfranchising anyone who grows an independent brain. This is by design. Thus the large percentage of people that leave, is a good thing as far as the org is concerned. But it's okay as long as there's a good supply coming in the front door.
When growth drastically slows down is when things will start to break, I think.
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 8 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/78308/1.ashx
 

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Topic Summary
in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.
a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.
they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.



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The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message
by drew sagan 8 years ago 94 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

The group definitely relies on a constant stream of recruits coming in WHO ARE NEW TO THE MESSAGE. It's these folks who bring in enthusiasm, cause they haven't lived through the years of the same ol', same ol'. Even if the message seems kind of weird, being based on some far-out 1914 mumbo-jumbo, the seeming chaos presented by the media still helps clinch the deal.
I understand this perspective, but have doubts about new recruits lasting impact.
 I was a new recruit in the late 90's and did not last one decade in the organization. The main reason was because the idealistic picture of the organization I had before I became a member dealt with the reality of what the organization was after I became a member. I went right into pioneer work but became extremely frustrated because I did not the see excitement I had as a new member within those who had been JWs for many years.  Their lack of enthusiasm eventually made me give up my idealism. I can't help but wonder about how many other converts out there meet with the same disappointment I did.
 The organization can bring people in, but how do they maintain that excitement? I doubt that they can. There is nothing that people can grab ahold of that continues them to be active in the faith. You come in with lots of excitement only to realize that everybody else is doing half of what you thought they were.
 I realized that most all JWs viewed it as a routine, not as the exciting and thrilling lifestyle they tell you it is. Many JWs make very little sacrifice to be JW, rather they fit it around their regularly scheduled activities.
 As for your assessment as to what will happen when new members don't come in fast enough to replace old members, I think there is a possibly that they may be reaching that point faster than any realize.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 8 years ago

Drew says,
For those that think that some of the changes they have made recently are a big deal, I would ask you to consider those changes in a much larger context. It may be a big deal for a JW when the structure of a meeting changes, but it is nothing more than novelty.
So true. Don't hang your life watching the fringe edges of society. Let's not forget how boring and banal all this stuff is to outsiders.
I would also like to comment on the idea that the WTS is hoping to scale down to a "core" of true believers. I wonder if such a thing actually exists.
Organizations cannot run on true believer types alone. Organizers and moneymen and gofers are all needed, just like in Iran. The hard core doesn't bring in the dough! They need the lapsed and practical "jack-mormons" for that. :smile:)
Randy
 
Jeremy C
Jeremy C 8 years ago

There is another major issue that the Watchtower refuses to address. They refuse to adopt and implement many of the social support mechanisms (such as support groups) that other large churches offer to their members.
I attended a large church in my area that offered over a dozen free support groups for it's members: support groups for single mothers, for those suffering from depression, groups for fathers, those struggling with drinking problems, and groups that were specifically designed for youngsters and teenagers. The Watchtower organization offers nothing of this sort. Not only do they refuse to allow these kinds of arrangements, but they subtly infer that any discouragement is the fault of the member; that they need to have a better appreciation of the "spiritual paradise".
On the Watchtower's treadmill of activity, there is a "one size fits all" system of uniformity that ignores many of the unique and diverse needs of it's members. I believe that this is why so many people give up their activity in the organization out of sheer exhaustion, depression, and discouragement. It is also why so many youths just are not invigorated or inspired very much.
The Watchtower organization could learn a thing or two from other churches. However, they will continue denounce such "time wasters" that are practiced in Christendom. They will continue to swear by their spiritual superiority complex and fail to provide the true and meaningful spiritual enrichment that could have retained the countless numbers who have left and continue to leave. Pride certainly does cometh before the fall.
 
purplesofa
purplesofa 8 years ago

I think all the points posted here are valid.
I guess I believe that there will.....and for a long time,
people that will be gulliable and keep the org going.
I hope not.
purps
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

On the Watchtower's treadmill of activity, there is a "one size fits all" system of uniformity that ignores many of the unique and diverse needs of it's members. I believe that this is why so many people give up their activity in the organization out of sheer exhaustion, depression, and discouragement. It is also why so many youths just are not invigorated or inspired very much.
Labeling it as a "One size fits all" couldn't point out the problem any better. The Watchtower refuses to see value in local congregations having any sort of autonomy, even when it comes down to simple things like social activities. The general attitude is "If it's not scheduled by HQ, it doesn't matter".
 
treadnh2o
treadnh2o 8 years ago

Being run like the business that it is, the marketing to those under 40 is what I believe may cause a decrease in members. In our local area those under 40 will not leave because they have either reached a position or have too many family members that the shunning is just not worth it to them. Those over 40 have given so much to the cause that why risk dying at Armageddon "if" the JW happen to be right. If enough "weeding out" happened it might cause a domino effect. Also, look who is missing the meetings, it is those under 40. As brought out on another post there is such mixed messages- less meetings bit no education-that it is hard for anyone to figure out who is running this organization.
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

What Jeremy C. said sums it up really well.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 8 years ago

I agree with Jeremy C.
People get a very low return on their time investment with the Watchtower.
I was a pastor for years, and know how much personal helps means in people's lives. NOT Bible study in books, meetings or that stuff. PERSONAL HELP.
The WT offers none. Lousy deal, few benefits, no joy.
No wonder so many take a gun to their head.
My former PO in San Luis Obispo hung himself in a tree outside the city.
My former Bethel overseer, Wheelock, jumped out of a window at Bethel, leaving his wife.
Where are the REAL shepherds??
http://www.randallwatters.org/
 
oompa
oompa 8 years ago

how many times can you say the same things...be wrong.....over and over.......be wrong...say the same things......be wrong.......over and over....be wrong....say the same.........oompa
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 8 years ago

The WBTS could care less how many leave..It`s a sign they are the true religion.....They only want hard core nut cases..Willing to hunt Terry down and toss him out the door..........Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW
 
neverendingjourney
neverendingjourney 8 years ago

unless the movement begins to make some major changes like other contemporary institutions have, it is troubled times ahead.
I think your analysis is mostly spot on, but I don't think mainstream reforms are essential for the Watchtower's long-term survival. Have you considered the possibility that they might tear down their current eschatological structure and come up with an entirely new one?  All they'd have to do is say "new light" and the vast majority of their members would buy into it. Sure, a few people here and there would leave, but that kind of a move would reinvigorate the religion and give their members something new and exciting to look forward to. They could find a new way to interpret prophecy that puts Armageddon no more than 30 or 40 years away. This would bring back the excitement that used to be present in the religion throughout its early history.
I believe there are two routes to assure the Watchtower's long-term survival: (1) mainstream reforms along the lines of what you suggest and (2) wholesale reinvention of their eschatological beliefs. The status quo cannot be maintained because they currently offer a stick with no carrot, sacrifices with no tangible reward. The first route would be the soundest direction to go in, from a business perspective. However, I believe, as you do, that the Watchtower leaders genuinely believe their own nonsense. Putting in place mainstream reforms entails recognition on the part of the GB that they were wrong, that the religion they believe in failed them personally and that they in turn mislead millions of followers. I don't see this happening. The current GB members didn't invent this religion. They bought into this stuff just like the rest of us did. Therefore, I think we'll eventually see the WT undergo changes involving a complete reinvention of their eschatology. It would be easier for the GB to implement those kinds of changes because it doesn't have to involve any admission of error. They could explain it away in their mind by saying that Jehovah allowed them to be mistaken for decades so that people could come to worship him and now Jehovah has seen it fit to provide his people with a clearer understanding of the truth, etc.
I'm inclined to believe that the next 10 years will see minor tweaks and growing apathy among the rank and file while the realization that major changes are needed begins to sink in at headquarters. The GB will be forced to come to terms with the fact that all their eschatological predictions failed. When that realization finally sinks in, it's entirely possible that the GB will go about the task of finding out what went wrong. For diehard believers who spent their entire lives within this religion, the obvious answer to that question will be that Jehovah allowed the GB to be in error for whatever reason, but now Jehovah was ready to reveal some deeper truth...through them, no less.
My basic point is this: I agree with your analysis, but I would suggest that the WT could shun mainstream reforms and still remain viable in the long-term.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

wholesale reinvention of their eschatological beliefs.
I won't doubt that this is a possibility.
 I tend to think of it this way. The 1975 fiasco was 33 years ago. Add to that people who were babies all the way up to 10 years old or so were probably not affected, nor understood what happened at the time. This means that anybody in the organization under 40 has never experienced the fallout of a produced date.
 From what I see the WTS is currently nearing the end of what can be labeled the "post 1975 era". After the 75' fiasco the Watchtower adjusted a number of policies and practices and set in motion an organization structure that essential remain unchanged until the last few years. Almost every member of the governing body through the 70's, 80's, and even some of the 90's came from the 1970's and earlier. I don't believe any members were elected to the GB in the 1980's.
 So the current question is, what is the Watchtower going to do to transition out of this 'post 75' era? Because so many people are in the organization never have experienced major eschatological change, they may move in that direction sometime in the next 15 years or so. But I believe there are some major dangers that face the WTS in this regard.
 If the eschatological structure is changed to suggest that the end will occur within 30-40 years the Watchtower could suffer a terrible fallout after such things fail to pass. They are not as strong as they once were and neither are their believers. Notice how the Watchtower continues to harp on about how "bad" peoples attitudes are within the group. This is a more recent development which came through somewhat in the 1980's, stronger in the 90's, and is blaring in the 00's. The Watchtower has more members today that are willing to complain and get frustrated than ever before (and for good reason!). Promising the end within their lifetime is a hell of a lot more risky that promising it to those who survived the Rutherford years.
 Also, the WTS has made a number of moves that suggest they are sticking with their current model. Reprinting and studying the Revelation book come to my mind. They also have refined their generation teaching into a belief that simply can go on indefinitely.
 The general feeling that I get is that they recognize that reform is needed, but are unwilling to give up their beliefs in order to deal with it. This is why I think the future is dangerous for them. Either they move into some pretty serious reform, or they take the risk and put forward a new eschatological system. But one thing they cannot afford to do is slowly change the organization in fairly mundane ways over time while continuing to hold to beliefs that hinder their progress. I believe that such inaction moves them further and further towards a position of complete irrelevance.
 
Mickey mouse
Mickey mouse 8 years ago

New recruits around here aren't even lasting out five years. The ones who stay in are increasingly those trapped in by family.
If there is a reduction in members, they will just say "hey, the love of the greater number has cooled off"  That makes the big A imminent!
Mickey.
 
Bring_the_Light
Bring_the_Light 8 years ago

My home Congo looked extremely stressed. I was actually a little surprised that most everyone I knew was still there, but there were very notable losses. Most striking was there was ABSOLUTELY nobody new. Not a single local recruit. Some jaydub was imported from Iowa, he was the only face I didn't recognize.
I guess I can't tell the difference from "normal" now that I've been away so long, but everyone looked pretty stressed which I interpreted to be related to the "we've lost ground and its embarrassing" sitch.
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

I do agree with idea that they are continually loosing ground. Since my family and I first started attending 8 years ago I have yet to see any new faces besides the ones that are farmed out from other congos.
The current members are fading away with age and the younger ones are not into it. There is not enough interest to keep the younger generation going unless they are tied to it by family and have no choice.
Certain cliques in the congo has also pushed some of the farmed out members away to other congos, so they say. They may have seen the light and left for good who knows.
Since the born in retention is only 37% their future depends on new members willing to join the religion or they will die out.
 
Gordy
Gordy 8 years ago

This has been one of the best threads I've read.
The points raised and discussed have been thoughtful and well thought out. I will add my own viewpoint for what its worth.
I was a JW from 1971 to 2001 when I disassociated. I still have a wife and two daughters still in. We have not spoken since 2001.
The congregation I was in was always a strong one. It was recognised as being very "spiritual" that is it kept to the WT line. The original congregation split into two, because even after 1975 in grew. Both congregations shared the the same Kingdom Hall. Which eventually led us building a bigger new one which we could share. The North congregation was always the bigger one. It could reach 150 attendance for Public talk and Watchtower study. Even the School/Service meetings averaged 130-140. I was in the South congregation slightly smaller average for Public talk?WT study was about 130, with probably about 100 for other meetings. One of the book groups was usually held in my home and we had, 20-30 attending on average. In the early years I was there the Elders were older men, aged from 50 to 70's, all either born JWs or had been for 50 years.. As these died off in later years they were replaced by younger ones say 30 to 50. I became a Min Servant. When I last had contact with that congregation in 1999,it seemed still as strong as ever, as did the sister congregation.
In the last few years say since 2001. Those two congregations seemed to have fallen apart. Number have dropped. My non-JW daughter who was still living with her mother, a couple of years ago went to a Public/WT study meeting of the North congregation, attendance at one time could hit 150, but she said there probably only about 30 there. My old congregation (South) was getting about 80-90 attendance. The number of publishers when I was there was 86. The book group I last heard only has 8 attending! I used to run two coaches to go to the District Convention, now there are none. Attendance at our DC was hitting 20,000 at one time, the last one I went to had 12,000.
Over the years Elders have resigned, I heard because of "internal differences." Other congregation members are attending meetings at other local congregation even though it requires a fair journey to get to even the nearest one. Others have just stopped going. Other ex-JWs across the area have said similar things about their own ex-congregations. Congregations that you would have said at one time would be steadfast and strong for the "Truth" are just seemingly hanging on.
Is this all a symptom of what has been mentioned on this thread?
Are JWs suffering from "Armageddon Burnout" ? In 6 years time it will be 2014. A hundred years since the Watchtower claims Jesus took up kingly power in 1914. Another 4 years and it will a hundred years when Jesus is supposed to have chosen the Watchtower.
Did they really think they would be here this long?
Or are more JWs seeing through WT teachings and starting to think for themselves? There are so many factors involved. Including just life and living in this world we are in.
There will always be a hardcore of followers, as you get in any religion, who will hang on nomatter what.
But whatever it is that is happening to the Watchtower let all play a part in chipping away at it.
Forgive me if I rambled on. I was doing this at work and kept getting interrupted
But felt had to reply tosuch a good thread.
 
sir82
sir82 8 years ago

When growth drastically slows down is when things will start to break, I think.
This could happen soon, at least in the US.
Virtually all of the growth in the US over the past 10 years is from immigration. JWs from Latin America are moving here, and immigrant populations fuel the growth from new baptisms. If the WT ever dared to print a split of "English-speaking" vs. "Non-English speaking" publisher numbers, I am virtually certain it would be devastating. The number of English-speaking JWs is not only very likely not growing, I'd venture to say it is dropping significantly.
But for how much longer can the growth from immigration continue? Over 1/4 of the JWs in the US attend Spanish-language congregations. Latin American immigrants, legal and otherwise, are beginning to leave the US, because the mortgage crisis has put the kibosh on new home construction, where a huge number of them worked. There's no work here, so they're going home to their families.
http://www.firesociety.com/forum/thread/26868/With-fewer-construction-jobs-to-go-around--some-Latino-immigrants-are-opting-to-leave-the-U.S./
Without a steady pool of desperate 3rd-world immigrants, who have grown up to respect the Bible but are disenchanted with the Catholic church, the number of new recruits will shrivel.
You can already see it in the monthly reports in the KM. In the last service year, the JW count rose by over 3% from the year before. This year, based on my rough informal estimates, the growth will be far less, probably around 1 to 1.5%.
If the crisis continues as expected into next year, with full recovery years beyond that, you may well see negative numbers appearing in the "growth" column of the annual report.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 8 years ago

I have found the Washtowel message to be blatantly the opposite of Jesus' true message. Jesus wanted the people to think independently instead of blindly obeying orders. The Washtowel wants people to blindly obey orders instead of thinking independently.
Eventually, people are going to think independently. It will happen when the Washtowel itself does something blatantly stupid. The oral sex issue sent a few walking out. The waste of paper distribution campaigns led to others leaving, as did the "valueless things" and the marriage advice in the washtowel last week. All it takes is for something to hit the person the wrong way, and there is another walkout. And often another S-77 form to write up. Hopefully, the organization will be ruined from the inside.
Meanwhile, us apostates can keep new ones from joining. This is the prime way--this very forum is where one can find actual experience of many that have left without the hassle of setting up and maintaining a web site. And there are those who have gone through the process of setting up web sites, helping any interested person to research and get the real facts before joining. Hopefully, that will contribute to stagnant meeting attendance and pxxx poor field circus results, and discouragement.
 
M.J.
M.J. 8 years ago

:Over 1/4 of the JWs in the US attend Spanish-language congregations.
In my area (and this is a fairly recent phenomenon), there are more who attend the Spanish DCs than there are who attend the English DCs. Someone from Washington State told me that their town went from 2 English congregations and no Spanish to 2 Spanish and 1 English.
 
CunningMan
CunningMan 8 years ago

Dogpatch said:
"My former Bethel overseer, Wheelock, jumped out of a window at Bethel, leaving his wife."
Wow, there were people committing suicide at Bethel? I wonder how many people have done that over there. Of course, those are the stories that no one hears about.
 

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Topic Summary
in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.
a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.
they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.



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The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message
by drew sagan 8 years ago 94 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

I think that the WT Society always has an undercurrent which is trying for reform. Ray Franz was not the only one of these, and there probably are still such thinkers. One obvious result which hints at reform is the de-emphasis on the "generation" and a general realignment (which nobody understands) on the annointed and the 144,000. These things probably had to be done to avoid embarrasments akin to the 1975, but this time they dumbed it down so much that probably nobody noticed any particular change. Just enough reform to keep them out of the hot water of obvious false prophecy.
So, yes - slight reform does occur. Unfortunately, they also have an invested power structure that hates reform. The power elite tend to be the oldest and most conservative of old watchtower ideas. They are very slow to act, but they tend to dish out the discipline in spades once they figure out that something progressive might be afoot.
And here I think we are seeing the empire strick back in force: A violent hatred of college education, internet, and general human communication outside the official magazines. Continual verbal abuse on "follow the slave", "beware of apostacy", and a set of obvious curbs on local congregational authority.
I agree that they year 2014 could obviously be a critical test psychologically for many older JWs. It may be that the planning to let this slide by will be that 1914 is to be seldom mentioned in new literature - they have about 5 or 6 years to let everybody forget about 1914, so that 2014 will just be another year.
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

I agree that they year 2014 could obviously be a critical test psychologically for many older JWs. It may be that the planning to let this slide by will be that 1914 is to be seldom mentioned in new literature - they have about 5 or 6 years to let everybody forget about 1914, so that 2014 will just be another year.
I would think that 5-6 years would be too short for them to accomplish such a task especially with a lot of the older generation. There would have to be "New Light" somewhere to make this happen.
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

Very possibly, Quirky1 - and it would bring joy to our hearts to see an "issue" form around 2014. But then as I have not been around it for over 35 years, I don't really know how long they have been backing away from 1914. For example, the "generation" thing occurred (for the first time) - way back in the mid 90s, right? And that in itself was by extension a "weakening" of 1914.
And many have commented on the childish nature of the latest study materails - hardly any complicated chronology any more, no prototypes and antitypes like Franz used to drool about, mostly just "follow the slave and be faithful".
So, yes - 2014 might be a big morale check for some of the really older ones (people my age when that year comes) - but I doubt that more than one out of ten could adequately tell you in their own words what 1914 was all about in the first place. And considering that nobody under 40 is going to even remember the 1975 issue - I can pretty much see them just stumbling along right through 2014.
Like bumbling old men loose in the street from the nursing home with their pants unzipped and trailing toilet paper from their shoes.
 
sir82
sir82 8 years ago

nobody under 40 is going to even remember the 1975 issue
In my experience, nobody under 40 even believes there was a "1975 issue".
"Oh, that was just some individuals running ahead of the congregation", or even "Oh, that's just apostates making up lies".
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

I never knew anything about the 1975 issue or anything else until I found this site and Randy's. So one can actually blame ignorance for not knowing or understanding the issues with the WTBS.
Until one does their own research they will "never" know or come to an understanding.
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 8 years ago

And I didn't know about the "great apostacy" until I went to Bethel.... There are so many JWs who were never exposed to what REALLY happened, nor to what the WTS REALLY teaches.
 
iceguy
iceguy 8 years ago

In my area there were 7 congregations...Once they started a small spanish cong it grew quickly and split. The only growth here has been the 2 spanish cong's and the original 7 english cong's have strugged for the most part with no real growth other than jw's moving into the area.
 
Fisherman
Fisherman 8 years ago

After crying wolf since the 1800's till now, don't think that jws fear as much as they once did, but no matter what, Jws are convinced that:
1 WTS is Gods visible org
2 Bible is "God's Word"
3 WE are living in the prophetic time of the end
4 God fulfills his purposes. His word will not fail
And yet, even though jws have this conviction, the sense of "urgency" has cooled in the souls of some (if not many) of the flock and shepherds. This is evident by growing non kingdom pursuits.
THis is my opinion and obeservation.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

Good topic Drew.
The WTS does not appear to be acting intelligently. Most changes over the last decade have been reactive to legal issues or negative media.
Interesting what you say about reformers. Since the Worldwide Church of God changed from an apocalyptic religion and went mainstream they have lost 3/4 of their membership and had to close down most of their printing and educational facilities. Other offshoots started up trying to maintain the old teachings, but those have fragmented and have low numbers as well. Any major reformation will need to come from a charismatic new GB leader, otherwise it will be detrimental to the group.
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 8 years ago

I think the 2035 date that's been thrown around may keep some of the old timers around as we blow by 2014. The seeds were planted for that date some time ago so it can certainly get them through to the next generation of JW's
 
Mickey mouse
Mickey mouse 8 years ago


In my experience, nobody under 40 even believes there was a "1975 issue".
"Oh, that was just some individuals running ahead of the congregation", or even "Oh, that's just apostates making up lies".
Yep, you just described me before I came here.
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

wha happened - what indeed happened?
2035? Maybe I have just missed it, but is there anything to it?
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

Yeah, I've not heard the 2035 issue either.
Also, this is a good thread Drew.
 
Quandary
Quandary 8 years ago

I believe some have construed statements like the following from W12/15/03 to suggest the GB is toying with 120 year period of preaching from 1914 which would bring us to 2034.


Warned
of"ThingsNotYetBeheld"
6
In Noah’s day, Jehovah declared: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3) The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring "the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens."—Genesis 6:17.

7
Noah received the warning of the upcoming catastrophe decades in advance, and he wisely used the time to prepare for survival. "After being given divine warning of things not yet beheld," says the apostle Paul, "[Noah] showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household." (Hebrews 11:7) What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in "the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4) How should we respond to warnings we have been given? "He that does the will of God remains forever," states the Bible. (1 John 2:17) Now is therefore the time to do Jehovah’s will with a keen sense of urgency.
Q
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

Wow, Quandary - and in 2003. So they are still pounding forth on the 1914 chronology.
And notice the clever way that this was put forward - without actually saying anything. I can just imagine some watchtower doing the post 2035 explanation in about 2040 - "some brothers and sisters, because of course they were anxious for the end of this system of things, may have somehow gone beyond the strict words that were written, and jumped ahead of Jehovah's organization to imagine that the year 2034 or 2035 might bring about all those things that they expected..."
It kind of brings back that old Deja Vu for the 1975 frenzy.
 
Quandary
Quandary 8 years ago

I know- The JWs will ALWAYS be an eschatological religion. It's in their genes!
 
elder-schmelder
elder-schmelder 8 years ago

I am 31 years old and I can remember going to a door all by my self when I was about 14, and the man at the door asked me what happend in 1975 with the JW's. I said that I dont have any idea but I will ask my dad. So I went back to the car and asked him about 1975. He told me the standard anwser that some brothers sold there homes thaught that the end was coming then. So I never looked into it until about 1 year ago. Now I understand !!
 
M.J.
M.J. 8 years ago

:confounded:o they are still pounding forth on the 1914 chronology.
Still coming up in the publications. "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" (2005) has a whole appendix section on 1914.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Still coming up in the publications. "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" (2005) has a whole appendix section on 1914.
Yes, and it is by far the weakest presentation of the "facts" regarding their 1914 teaching ever put forward by the WTS.
 I believe that the appendix (which amounts to nothing more than a few pages and a dozen or so paragraphs) is an example of the Watchtowers growing tendency to retreat into isolation. It used to be that paragraph upon paragraph was provided with numbers, figures, references, ect to prove their date is true. Now they throw out a few generic sentences and leave it at that. Just look at how full of content their books were in the 50's and 60's. They have been in a steady progression of saying less and less. It is this kind of behavior that suggests to me that the title of this thread has meaning, they continue to grow irrelevant and have no strategy to dig themselves out of the hole.
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 8 years ago

Drew, I feel that their publications have turned into more of a Dick and Jane reading book. Very child like imitations.
 

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Topic Summary
in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.
a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.
they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.



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The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message
by drew sagan 8 years ago 94 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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purplesofa
purplesofa 8 years ago

I think the organization sees what they are doing as a war......what's been going on are all the battles that must be fought, some won and lost while fighting. They have retreated, somewhat, recently and are regrouping, reorganizing.
Over history, wars have been won, only after retreat. They have rethought the plan, and come out stronger. When the opponents believed they had victory.
I am not saying the org is going to win anything. As I don't believe there is anything to win anymore.
But many people on this planet are deeply invested in their religious beliefs, their God, their doctrones and will fight to the bitter end.
purps
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 8 years ago

I've been in steady contact with a JW elder, and he confirmed that this 2034 date is being discussed to a degree in the congregations, and for the reasons given above. No official stance on it, of course.
I've been re-reading Crisis of Conscience, and one of the really interesting things Ray brings out is is how many of the Gov. Body members were willing to consider alternatives to the 1914 date. It's obvious from what he experienced that among the leadership of the Witnesses, there is serious concern about the accuracy of that date - even 20 or 30 years ago!
The fact that the GB turned around and made belief in the teaching that Jesus took up his throne in 1914 a a requirement when they were investigating the apostacy at Bethel in 1980-81, just shows how morally bankrupt those men were!
S4
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

The irrelevance is bound up with one simple fact: The whole JW belief system either survives or fails on the basis of the eschatology. And this very belief system has proven to be false time and again since the days of the Millerite origins of their chronology.
Not one single thing they teach falls very far from the "time of the end is upon us" tree. The "time of the end" story is the Jehovah's Witness version of easter bunny and santa claus. The irrelevance of it is that not many Witnesses actually believe in it any more - they are there for social reasons, family pressures, just plain habit of momentum, or off on some sad elder/governing body power trip. They are just going through the motions of the belief in the immediate end of the world.
1914 is so far in the past that nobody in their right mind could pretend that it has or had any prophetic meaning now that we are just around the corner of the 100 year anniversary. And yet, this date still has to be taught - simply because to NOT teach it would be to admit that over a century of "time of the end" was not "time of the end" at all. Generations of witnesses believed it, suffered great hardship for it, were laughed at by the general public for it, and finally died without seeing anything at all take place.
These facts will not simply go away. The witnesses themselves are well aware that the doctrine of the end grows weaker with each new day, and more irrelevant with each time it is hollowly retold.
 
Quandary
Quandary 8 years ago

A couple of years ago I was having a discussion with a fellow elder who is an old timer, grandfather came in during CTR's time, anyway, he was reasoning that if Jehovah waited 120 years for Noah's generation when the earth's population was only a few hundred million (I don't know how he arrived at that figure) are we to expect that he would show a less patient attitude with 6 billion people? Thinking back, I think his logic may have been influenced by the W article I referenced earlier.
Q
 
Quandary
Quandary 8 years ago

Not one single thing they teach falls very far from the "time of the end is upon us" tree. The "time of the end" story is the Jehovah's Witness version of easter bunny and santa claus. The irrelevance of it is that not many Witnesses actually believe in it any more - they are there for social reasons, family pressures, just plain habit of momentum, or off on some sad elder/governing body power trip. They are just going through the motions of the belief in the immediate end of the world.
Totally agree with your point James!
Q
 
M.J.
M.J. 8 years ago

Are you really only 25 Drew? You seem wise well beyond your years.
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 8 years ago

I was going to ask if anyone was still active if the 2034 date was getting attention. Looks like it has. What a perfect date for them. Just far enough to not lose the masses but yet far enough to bury another generation. I'll be retired by then
 
95stormfront
95stormfront 8 years ago

I was a new recruit in the late 90's and did not last one decade in the organization. The main reason was because the idealistic picture of the organization I had before I became a member dealt with the reality of what the organization was after I became a member. I went right into pioneer work but became extremely frustrated because I did not the see excitement I had as a new member within those who had been JWs for many years. Their lack of enthusiasm eventually made me give up my idealism. I can't help but wonder about how many other converts out there meet with the same disappointment I did.
That abou mirrors my experience as well.It was soon after baptism that I'd had a couple of issues with nosy elders and the my study partner dropping me from his friendship list when he couldn't count time on me anymore that I realized what the organization was all about.
 
Lady Zombie
Lady Zombie 8 years ago

I'm 38 so I'm technically under 40. I have always known about the 1975 issue because, to save face, many JW parents of people my age make it into a big joke on themselves. My parents do this.
My folks: Tee Hee! We planned when to have you so that you'd never have to go to school. Most of us felt that 1975 would be the end. Silly us! Well, it's our fault from running ahead of the organization.
I know of about a dozen other people I grew up with whose parents had done the same thing; planning their birth so that they would be pre-school aged children when 1975 came.
I also know of a few who went heavily into debt around this time (like late '73 to '74). They figured they would never have to repay the money. There were a lot of people driving new cars, indulging in luxuries, etc. Although the "materialism" was frowned upon, it was winked at because everyone believed Armie was on its way.
When it didn't come, there were a lot of janitors and window washers saddled with excessive debt that they couldn't repay.
I remember several people in my area left the bOrg over this.
Of course, true to WT doctrine, they were viciously labeled apostates and told it was their fault for running ahead of the organization and "overly anticipating" Jehovah.
Plausable deniability has always been established in the bOrg because while JWs are expected to obey the FDS, the JWs are also told that the GB are imperfect men and thus subject to imperfection and error.
Classic case of Orwellian Doublethink.
Those who didn't turn "apostate" and didn't leave the bOrg were however very bitter over the whole thing. I very much remember stern lectures from COs and DOs scolding the congregation for murmuring, allowing their zeal to cool, and "grieving the spirit."
On a depressing end-note, the 1975 disaster had been stomped out of the R&F active memory by 1980 and hardly anyone spoke about it anymore. If they did, they were very quickly reprimanded. To even mention 1975 usually led to a JC.
During my teenage years, my parents very reticent to even explain the whole thing to me.
 
TJ - iAmCleared2Land
TJ - iAmCleared2Land 8 years ago

The Watchtower refuses to see value in local congregations having any sort of autonomy, even when it comes down to simple things like social activities. The general attitude is "If it's not scheduled by HQ, it doesn't matter".
Ain't that the truth! At least when I was growing up, we and the other congregations would have picnics, potlucks, ball games, get together for cards and such weeknights... how many KH's do those things anymore? I'd venture to say that very few do.
 
TJ - iAmCleared2Land
TJ - iAmCleared2Land 8 years ago

I don't see this happening. The current GB members didn't invent this religion. They bought into this stuff just like the rest of us did. Therefore, I think we'll eventually see the WT undergo changes involving a complete reinvention of their eschatology. It would be easier for the GB to implement those kinds of changes because it doesn't have to involve any admission of error. They could explain it away in their mind by saying that Jehovah allowed them to be mistaken for decades so that people could come to worship him and now Jehovah has seen it fit to provide his people with a clearer understanding of the truth, etc.
Ding ding ding. I agree 100%. I think the GB would be smartest to disavow any particular "end is near" eschatology, and instead invoke an "end is coming... but we have NO IDEA WHEN OR HOW SOON". This provides the disconnect between a specific date or immediate reward. Their focus would turn, as motivation, to a lifetime of loyalty that leads to some FUTURE resurrection reward... an intangible item that is hard to "disprove", since you have to die and be resurrected to know it was true. As with hellfire, a powerful motivating force in some religions, the fear of what will happen in your afterlife can be a powerful carrot that leads for a lifetime.
This is a great thread.
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

Thanks for your comment, Quandry. You know, I almost did not post that statement about "most witnesses today do not actually believe in the end". But, the more I think about this, the more I tend to stand by it.
For sure, the majority of them do not act like they believe it is right around the corner. And have not since the 1975 failure.
And yes, I know that they will repeat it back to you as sort of a mantra chant, but as far as really believing it - it is something that is very remote, very far in the future, and many may secretly doubt the whole idea of a worldwide cataclysm at all.  I know I did for about 4 years prior to 1975, and for 5 years afterward - until I finally just left.
So in that sense, yes...the primary teaching of the JWs (that the end will be coming in your lifetime) is completely irrelevant. And they made it so themselves by repeating this over and over and over (for more than four generations now).
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

Quandry,

I believe some have construed statements like the following from W12/15/03 to suggest the GB is toying with 120 year period of preaching from 1914 which would bring us to 2034.
I've noticed that too. I think the GB would like to claim a 120 year period of preaching in the worst way, but don't see how they can ever actually do it. (As opposed to vague hints like the one you point out)
If you take the Bible's numbers at face value:


A.
Noah was exactly 600 years old when the flood came. (Gen 7:11)

B.
Noah did not have any children until sometime after his 500th year (Gen 5:32)

C.
Noah's children were already grown and married when he was informed about the flood and given the mandate to build the ark (Gen 6:18)
The enigmatic 120 year comment at Gen 6:3 says nothing about Noah or a deluge or even to whom God was allegedly speaking to.
JW literature estimates that Noah had 40 to 50 years advance warning of the deluge, not 120. (cf. Insight On The Scriptures Volume II p. 507)
 
Jeremy C
Jeremy C 8 years ago

I've been re-reading Crisis of Conscience, and one of the really interesting things Ray brings out is is how many of the Gov. Body members were willing to consider alternatives to the 1914 date. It's obvious from what he experienced that among the leadership of the Witnesses, there is serious concern about the accuracy of that date - even 20 or 30 years ago!
This is an interesting point that I had not considered in a while. Franz noted that two of the Governing Body members who expressed the most concern about the 1914 calculations were Nathan Knorr and Lyman Swingle. Swingle was disturbed by the fact that the date had been a carry-over doctrine from the Second Adventists; even being so blunt as to stating that the Witnesses got the date from them "lock stock and barrel".
Knorr also expressed deep reservations about 1914, but did not wish to push the issue. Remember that all of these doubts were being expressed either prior to, or around the same time that Carl Olof Jonsson presented all of his research to the GB regarding the errors of the 1914 chronology. Since the initial first publishing of The Gentile Times Reconsidered; additional discoveries have been made which only bolster Jonsson's position.
Drew sagan noted earlier that the Watchtower is saying less and less in their new books regarding their 1914 chronology. Newly converted Witnesses have a very limited picture regarding this doctrine. Many of them would probably be shocked if they were to ever read The Gentile Times Reconsidered. The problem is, few would truly understand the material or the full implications of it.
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

For sure, the majority of them do not act like they believe it is right around the corner.
I could give countless examples of this from experience, and I have only been "out" for less than four years. Here is one:
We were invited to dinner at the home of a m.s. and his wife, a pioneer for several years prior to her pregnancy. Now they had a two year old and another child still in diapers and she no longer pioneered. In the course of dinner, they talked about babies and the woman told us that her father in law (an elder I knew as a real "stickler" for theocratic order) was so proud of the birth of his first grandson that he opened a college account for him at a local bank in the amount of $1,000.
This was presented to us as the most natural set of circumstances so both my wife and I just smiled and chewed our food, being careful not to choke on it.
 

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Topic Summary
in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.
a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.
they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.



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Letter To My Parents - Please Offer Critique! Thanks!
by deaconbluez 9 years ago 15 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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deaconbluez
deaconbluez 9 years ago

Dear Mom & Dad,
Here’s the stuff that I said I would send concerning the 587/607BCE issue, as well as some other stuff that you requested dad.
The archeological/astronomical stuff is probably going to come across as VERY boring, but it is truly a help in settling the 587/607BCE issue. One thing that sticks out to me about these same cuneiform tablets and texts that disprove the 607BCE destruction date…it’s that they are even used by the Watchtower when it comes to things such as establishing the authenticity of the book of Daniel, or the existence of certain Babylonian kings. Yet, they won't accept the chronology on the same tablets, because it devastates the 607BCE teaching. That, in itself, is a huge double standard. They're saying that as long as the historical and archeological evidence doesn't conflict with established Watchtower teaching, then they'll use it if it helps to make their point. But that's a completely different area to discuss later. It turns out that they do support the chronology indirectly, without counting on the average Witness to make the connection that the chronology doesn’t support a 607BCE destruction date.
That official chronology that I’m talking about is shown on the attached file. Check out the chart and how it shows an established list of kings. The Watchtower, in a round-about way, even confirms a 587BCE destruction date through their agreement with this list of kings, which is called the Ptolemaic Kings list. Counting backward from the Watchtower’s agreed date of 539BCE as the last year of Babylonian rule as a world power, using that agreed Biblical king list, and the fact that Jerusalem fell in the 18th year reign of Nebuchadnezzar, the ONLY conclusion that can be reached is that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587BCE. The chart (attached file) illustrates this.
Again, even further in WT literature it is pointed to, but still not fully accepted when related to a 607BCE destruction date. Again, I guess they don’t count on the average Witness to see the contradiction. Here is the one reference, taken from the Watchtower Library:
*** kc 186-9 Appendix to Chapter 14 *** Historians hold that Babylon fell to Cyrus' army in October 539 B.C.E. Nabonidus was then king, but his son Belshazzar was co-ruler of Babylon. Some scholars have worked out a list of the Neo-Babylonian kings and the length of their reigns, from the last year of Nabonidus back to Nebuchadnezzar's father Nabopolassar. According to that Neo-Babylonian chronology, Crown-prince Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians at the battle of Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (Jeremiah 46:1, 2) After Nabopolassar died Nebuchadnezzar returned to Babylon to assume the throne. His first regnal year began the following spring (604 B.C.E.).
Ok, we know the Bible says that the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th regnal year (19th when accession year is included), according to Jeremiah 52:5, 12, 13, 29. But there are no dates in the Bible and we need secular history to work out where everything happened in time. Even the society will admit to this. When they need confirmation on something that requires the input of historians like Herodotus and Josephus, they use it, as long as it doesn't devastate their current doctrine. So we've got the Ptolemaic Kings list, confirmed by the Scriptures and secular history, pointing to a 587BCE destruction date.
Ok, lets move on to further credible, documented sources that show 587BCE as the correct date:
We have the Royal Canon that agrees with the Bible, both proving that 539 BCE was the first year of Cyrus. The Canon was in use centuries before Ptolemy and historians state that it is based on Babylonian, not Seleucid (post-Babylonian) sources, due to certain expressions and characteristics in it.
Here's more:
The Uruk King List was uncovered in 1959. It shows the ruling periods of the Babylonian Kings from Kandalanu to Nabonidus. These also agree with the Royal Cannon and the historian Borossus.
We also have more cuneiform documents from the Neo-Babylonian period than any other pre Christian era. Literally tens of thousands have been found and are preserved everywhere from the Smithsonian to Babylonian Antiquities organizations. The lengths of the kings' rule can be established through these and these agree with the Royal Cannon and Borossus.
Archeological and Historical finds:
Nabonidus Harran Stele (NABON H 1, B): a contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy's Canon.
There is also a lot more cuneiform evidence to show the Kings' ruling years than just the above. These all back up the Royal Canon. They were all written in the Neo-Babylonian era. In fact, one cuneiform called the Nabon #24 tablet (they number them after they are cataloged and stored). It's also known as the Adad-guppi inscription, named after Adad-guppi, the mother of Nabonidus. She lived to be 104. And on the inscription is an account of her life and the kings that she had lived under. It then lists the kings and their reigns. All the reigns are in complete accordance with this king list. One distinct feature about this one is that it is actually date from the Neo Babylonian period itself and is not a copy.
Another one is VAT 4956: This is a cuneiform tablet that provides astronomical information datable to 568BCE. It says that the observations were from Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year. This would correspond to the chronology that places his 18th year in 587/586BCE. This is one of the main tablets that historians use to establish Babylonian history. It has 30 astronomical observances that are so accurately described that modern astronomers have no trouble dating it to 568BCE, which the tablet in two places states is Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year. The observances are of the moon and the five then known planets. Modern astronomers point out that such combinations of astronomical positions would not be duplicated again in thousands of years. There is no way that the observances can have been made 20 years earlier, in order to support a 607BCE destruction date.
There is also BM 32312, which can be dated to 651BCE due to the observances on it. This tablet talks of a battle between Assyria and Babylon, where Babylon is heavily defeated. This agrees with another tablet, BM 86379, also known as the Akitu Chronicle. It talks about the battle in Shamash-shuma-ukin's 16th year which interestingly states that the Babylonian King was defeated. Shamash-shuma-ukin's 20-year reign is dated to 667/66-648/47 BCE. This is in good agreement with this king list. To change Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year from 587BCE to 607BCE would also change Shamash-shuma-ukin's 16th year from 652 to 672 BCE which BM 32312 does not allow.
The next few are kinda deep, and get into astronomy a bit more. But then again, much of what current science uses for astronomy is based on the old Babylonian history that is contained in these tablets and texts. It is of benefit to us, though, because a study of these confirm dates and help us with things like the 587/607 issue. Anyway, there's the Saturn Tablet (BM 76738 and BM 76813), which gives observances for 14 successive years of the planet Saturn corresponding to the first fourteen years of king Kandalanu, so we can date this exactly. The British Museum, which the Watchtower quotes MANY times, explains that a complete cycle of Saturn's phenomena in relation to the stars takes 59 years. But when that cycle has to be fitted to the lunar calendar of 29 or 30 days then identical cycles recur at intervals of rather more than 17 centuries. So there is no difficulty in determining the date of the present text. And that shows that the absolute chronology of Kandalanus' reign because the pattern of positions described in the text is fixed to specific dates in the Babylonian lunar calendar, that are not repeated again in more than 17 centuries.
We also have the Saros Cycle Texts (LBAT 1417 - 1421). They record the lunar eclipses in the Babylonian area at the time. The texts were compiled during the Seleucid era (312-64 BCE). The evidence is that the eclipse records were extracted from astronomical diaries by Babylonian astronomers who had access to a large number of diaries from earlier centuries.
LBAT 1417 records four lunar eclipses at 18 year, 11 day intervals from 686 to 632BCE. It is part of a series of unearthed tablets: LBAT 1415 and LBAT 1416. The first entry records an eclipse from Sennacherib's third year which the tablet links to a lunar eclipse that took place on April 22 668BCE. The next entry states an eclipse to the second month in Shamash-shuma-ukin's first year as king. This equates to April/May in 668BCE. Babylonian astronomers had worked out that this would be an eclipse that would not be observable to Babylon. Modern eclipse catalogues show that such an eclipse took place on May 2, 668BCE. The length and time of the eclipse are in full agreement with the text. Now if we were trying to make 607BCE fit, we would have to add 20 years to Shamash-shuma-ukin's reign, which would make his first year of rule in 688BCE. However, no unobservable eclipses occurred in that year. So it turns out to be an impossible alternative.
The next entry in the text is dated to Shamash-shuma-ukin's 18th year, 650/649BCE. This eclipse too was a computed one, which would begin before sunset. According to modern calculations this eclipse took place on May 13, 650BCE. Again, if we place this eclipse 20 years earlier (in order to make 607BCE work), no eclipses took place in April or May that year.
The next and last entry is dated to the 16th year of Kandalanu (632BCE) and to the fifth month, which would correspond to May or June. This partial eclipse also took place the time it should have on May 23, 632BCE . If we add 20 years to make Kandalanus 16th year 652BCE, we do find an eclipse taking place on July 2nd that year, but it was a full eclipse and not partial as stated. So from that series of tablets, we have another confirmation of the kings list that I've provided, and they don't allow for 20 years to be inserted, in order to make a 607BCE destruction date fit.
LBAT 1419 is another that records an uninterrupted series of Lunar eclipses at 18 year intervals from 609/08 to 447/46BCE. The two following entries are clearly dated to the 14th and 32nd year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar. His 14th and 32nd years are dated to 591/90 and 573/72BCE, respectively. The two eclipses recorded both took place in August or September. Both eclipses were calculated in advance and the Babylonians knew that none of them would be observable in Babylon because they both occurred in the daytime. According to modern calculations both eclipses took place as predicted and fit exactly with the chronology established for Nebuchadnezzar. However if we were to look for the two eclipses twenty years earlier to support the 607BCE teaching, no eclipses occurred in that year, so it doesn't work.
Tablets LBAT 1420 and LBAT 1421 go into further detail about detailed eclipses with dates, and both confirm the kings list.
If you have a hard time understanding what all of the astronomy tablets have to do with this issue, think about it like this: You know when older people talk about something that happened a long time ago? For instance, "Your grandmother and I got married back in 1945, the first year that President Truman was in office." In the same way, these tablets and texts link events with dates and the subsequent kings that were ruling at that time. I hope that make sense.
As far as other cuneiform tablets from the Babylonian era, there are literally thousands that have been found that record simple business transactions, stating the year of the Babylonian king when the transaction occurred. Tablets of this sort have been found for all the years of reign for the known Neo-Babylonian kings in the accepted chronology of the period, and are all in agreement with this same kings list. There are tablets and texts for every year of the Babylonian kings, and some of them exact to the day and month! 2,500 tablets were found in 1875/76 that tells about a Babylonish business house, and is so detailed that we can work out who was head of the business and what kings they reigned under. These are also in full agreement with this same kings list.
There are also texts that interlock the various kings, therefore not allowing for an unknown king. There are also tablets detailing the careers of scribes, temple administrators, slaves, businessmen and others that may be followed for decades. But never do these careers cross the established chronological borders into some unknown 20-year period. The insertion of 20 years would not only distort the understanding of the careers, activities and family relations of the individuals but would also give them abnormal life spans.
Ok, now I want to give the Watchtower the benefit of the doubt. Let's just suppose that the thousands of tablets and texts, the same ones that the Watchtower will quote if it serves their purpose, are all in error. Let's suppose that there is a 20-year error in the chronology. Then every compiler of the tablets and text would would have to have made the same mistake independently of each other. Plus, there is no way that every one of them wouldn't have known what king was ruling at the time of their writing. What about the existing Egyptian chronology that also agrees with the kings list? They would have to be off by exactly 20 years as well. What about the tens of thousands of dated economic, administrative and legal documents that have been excavated from the Neo-Babylonian period which cover every year of the kings, except the twenty years that we need to prove 607BCE? Did they all make the same mistake? No Witness could honestly agree that this is the case.
So, among the tens of thousands of discovered materials from that time period, we are unable to find one shred of support for the 607BCE date. And it isn't a case of us not being able to truth the historical evidence that we've been provided, because it is through this same evidence that we arrive at established dates like 539BCE. That date is fully supported by the Watchtower, yet, it is established solely through historical documents. And of the two, 587BCE has even more support than 539 BCE. So, for us to retain one date and reject the other is inconsistent.
In the book "The Bible and the Ancient Near East", written by Professor Edward F. Campbell, Jr., a book that the Watchtower has quoted many times throughout the years, it says the Neo-Babylonian era is "one of the best- known periods of the ancient world, and we can be very sure that the dates are correct to within a year or so and many of the dates are accurate to the day and month."
Ok, that's pretty much all of the historical archeological evidence that I've got. Also, keep in mind that Compton's Encyclopedia, Encarta Encyclopedia, Reference Desk, The Columbia Encyclopedia, and World Book Encyclopedia all agree that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 587BCE. The Watchtower quotes all of these sources, and uses the ones I've mentioned above, as long as their quoting it helps support an idea that they are trying to get across. When it comes to the evidence that these same sources contain DISPROVING 607BCE as the destruction date, the Watchtower ignores it. Do you see how hypocritical that is?
Look at it this way: there was a WT article from 1969 called "A Look at Mormonism" that I used to keep a copy of in my service bag, because it had some excellent points to use when talking to Mormons in the ministry. And one of the main thoughts of the article was that the Mormons believe the Bible to be the Word of God as long as it doesn't contradict the Book of Mormon. It pointed out that by making that their policy, the Book of Mormom became the "measuring rod of truth", and not the Bible, as it should be. But it's that same selective method that is happening with all of the evidence that points to 587BCE as the destruction date. In effect, the Watchtower is saying, "Yes, we'll use and quote historical and archeological sources as long as it agrees with our current teachings."
So at this point, there is SO much evidence that points to 587BCE, including the Watchtower's own agreement of the Ptolemaic Kings list, which doesn't support the 607BCE teaching. It is the date 607BCE that should actually be "on trial" here, with proof being shown of it being a valid date, since the ONLY place that we find that date is in Watchtower literature. And it would be different if the Watchtower had a clean record when it comes to prophecy and dates. But they have failed miserably, and a lot of that is largely kept hidden from individual Witnesses. But And it's not about honest men making mistakes. It's not about imperfection. In the 7/1/73 WT, it says, "Jehovah’s organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God’s holy spirit or force. Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book." And look at what their record shows when it comes to that:
Creation, page 319
"Applying the same rule then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to 1874 A.D., at which time, according to biblical chronology, the Lord’s second presence was due."
“The time of the end” embraces the period from 1799 A.D to the time complete overthrow of Satan’s empire and the establishment of the kingdom of messiah. The time of the Lord’s second presence dates from 1874 and is during the latter part of the period known as “the time of the end."
Zion's WT 5/1/1881
"We would like to correct this misapprehension once for all, by stating that we do not expect Jesus to come this year, nor any other year, for we believe that all time prophecies (bearing upon Jesus' coming) ended at and before the fall of 1874."
The Time Is At Hand, page 240
"1874 is when Christ the Bridegroom and Reaper actually came."
Thy Kingdom Come, page 342 (This is where Russel measured the Great Pyramid of Giza, what he called a 'silent prophet')
"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1874 years AD. equals 3416 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject."
Thy Kingdom Come, page 342 *REPRINTED TO MAKE DATE CHANGES*
"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject."
WT 1/1/24, page 5
"Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874."
WT 1/15/1892, page 1355
"The date of the close of that ‘battle’ is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874."
WT 7/15/1894, page 1677
"We see no reason for changing the figures — nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."
The Finished Mystery, page 485
"Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of ‘Christianity.'"
WT 5/1/18, page 6243
"That the harvest began in 1878, there is ample and convincing proof. The end of the harvest is due in the spring of 1918."
WT, 5/15/22
"It is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the anti typical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914."
WT, 11/1/22
"We understand that the jubilee type began to count in 1575 B.C.; and the 3,500 year period embracing the type must end in 1925.. It follows, then, that the year 1925 will mark the beginning of the restoration of all things lost by Adam's disobedience."
Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 110
"April 1, 1925, at which time we may expect the resurrection of the Ancient Worthies."
WT, 4/1/23
“Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge.”
Salvation, page 311
"At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929 there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there are those on earth today who fully believe in God and Christ Jesus and in His Kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth .. It stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and when the princes do return, and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth Sarim."
Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 88
“Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection.. A simple calculation of these jubilees brings us to this important fact: Seventy jubilees of fifty years each would be a total of 3500 years. That period of time beginning 1575 years before A.D. 1 of necessity would end in the fall of 1925.”
(By the way, the actual deed to the house lists David, Noah, Abraham, Samuel, Samson, and others as actual inhabitants. When the media heard that Rutherford had a house built for soon-to-be-resurrected “ancient worthies”, many different newspapers interviewed him about it. One asked him, “How will you know when these resurrected ones arrive on earth, and how would he know what they look like?” Rutherford said he would know because they would seek him out personally and that they would have on the newest, classiest of clothes. He even said that he expected King David to arrive looking like the perfect physical specimen, wearing a tailored suit, cane, and a top hat.)
Interestingly, concerning the house in San Diego, Rutherford used it as his 2nd residence until he died there in 1942 with Hayden Covington and Fred Franz summoned to his bedside. It still stands today. You can even zoom in on it using Google earth or any other satellite/map program. It’s a mansion with a swimming pool overlooking a canyon. Rutherford even had olive trees imported by landscapers and planted on the property so that King David and others would feel at home. And during this time when Rutherford was using this mansion as his 2nd home, the majority of other Witnesses in the U.S. were living in poverty, trying to survive the Great Depression as best they can, despite some having put so much faith in Rutherford’s prophecy about 1925 that they didn’t plant crops, didn’t pursue careers, all because they had full confidence that the Watchtower, which claimed to be the only true channel used by God to communicate His will to the earth, was correct in their prediction of 1925 being the end of the system.
After all of this came to pass, late in Rutherford’s life, according to Governing Body member Karl Klein’s life story in the 10/1/84 Watchtower, he confessed in front of the Bethel family one morning, “I made an ass of myself.” What’s ironic is that Witnesses will just laugh that statement off as good ole’ Rutherford being himself. But this was the man’s response to the false prophecies about 1925 and the Beth-Sarim embarrassment, prophecies that all Witnesses were to accept, believe, and put full faith in, because it was coming from God’s “chosen channel” of spiritual food to the earth. Does that mean that Jehovah causes people to prophecy falsely just for fun? Since when does Jehovah get SO much stuff wrong in His revealing them to His people?
And this is one of the key points that I want to make in this letter about all this: even through today, the Watchtower claims that THIS period of time, the Rutherford era, tainted by one false prophecy after another, was the period of time that Jesus came down to the Earth, examined the “faithful slave” (which was only considered to be Rutherford at that time, just as Russell alone was considered to the “slave”), approved them, and appointed that “slave” over “all his domestics.” So, despite the fact that organization was teaching that the end would come in 1925, that the “last days” had begun in 1874, that King David and others would be resurrected in 1925 and live in a mansion in San Diego, that Jehovah’s throne was physically located in the Pleiades constellation, that the “leviathan” of Job 40 referred to a locomotive, and the list goes on and on….despite all these false teachings, Jesus STILL selected and approved the “faithful slave” as the only true channel of spiritual information to all the earth? Not to mention, at this time the cross was still being used by Witnesses, it was still printed on the cover of the Watchtower magazine, and Christmas was still being celebrated by Witnesses AND at the Watchtower headquarters. But according to the current teaching, this is the period that, upon inspection, Jesus found the Watchtower to be THE ONLY organization dispensing truth to the earth.
If that were the case, that would mean that today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t the true religion. Because what is taught and believed today is a complete reversal of what was taught and believed at the time of “Christ’s inspection”. In fact, there have been so many flip-flops in teachings and doctrines, one could get lost in it because it is literally so much. Russell himself said, "A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth." But with the Watchtower, we are to believe that there is a such thing as “past truth”, which is their way of describing a Watchtower teaching that turned out to be false. Then they use the term “revealed truth”, which takes the place of what was “past truth”. Then, when they’re pretty sure that the “revealed truth” won’t come back to bite them, they call it “present truth”. By keeping that word truth so strongly attached to it, it almost hypnotizes the reader into thinking that whatever they see printed in the literature, no matter if it was false or if it turns out to be false, it is still categorized as absolute truth. That is a deception beyond anything that I could ever describe.
There are two places in the Bible that almost jump out and grab me at this point:
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: “However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”
AND

Matthew 24:23-25: “If anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned YOU.”
When I read these verses, I even take special note of the sentences “You must not get frightened at him” and “Look! I have forewarned you.” I think these verses read this way because a false prophet can be VERY convincing, even to the point of instilling fear in people by making them think that if they DON’T follow/believe what is being taught, then they will be destroyed at Armageddon. But we’re told “You must not get frightened at him”, because there is really nothing they can do to us. I take comfort in that.
And I know that the first inclination of a Witness is to dismiss all of what I’ve pointed out here as simply the mistakes of imperfect men. The Watchtower has constantly used this excuse when it comes to their failed predictions and teachings, even going to the point of saying that it is evidence of a great desire and enthusiasm to see God’s promises fulfilled. But their record shows that there is a lot more to it than that. It is one thing for a man to “make an ass” of himself because of wanting to see something happen. It is quite another thing, though, for him to urge others to share his views, to criticize them if they do not, even to question their faith or doubt their motives if they don’t see the matter the same way that he sees it. And beyond that, it is even more serious for an organization representing itself as God’s appointed spokesman to all mankind to do this, and to do it, not only for a few days or months, but for years, even decades, repeatedly, on a worldwide basis. The responsibility for the results in misleading people at that magnitude surely can’t be shrugged off with simply saying, “Well, nobody’s perfect.” NOBODY is perfect, but we do bear a responsibility for what we do. And that is especially so when our actions may dramatically affect something as important and personal as others’ relationship with God.
I ask myself: Why is it that SO many things, such as the overwhelming evidence of a 587BCE destruction date, have been kept hidden from Witnesses? Then I look at what that would mean for the Watchtower as an organization to lose that date. 1914 is THE center of a major portion of Witness teachings. To remove the date as having significance would mean a virtual collapse of all the doctrinal and authority structure that the organization is founded on. That is how crucial it is. Witnesses are always eager to get to the ROOT of a teaching. Like when a Witness explains whey they don’t celebrate Christmas or birthdays, they are quick to point out the “pagan roots” that the holidays come from, therefore making it wrong. So why don’t we apply that same standard to the Watchtower? What is the root of the 1914 teaching? It first appeared in “Herald of the Morning” by Nelson Barbour, a Seventh Day Adventist preacher. The “Herald of the Morning” was a Seventh Day Adventist magazine/newsletter that Russell was the assistant editor for while he was still a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church. When Russell left to form the International Bible Students, he took the 1914 teaching with him, as he and Barbour will still good friends. He even used some of Barbour’s writings in the early issues of Zion’s Watchtower. At that time, 1914 had NO LINK to 607BCE in Watchtower teachings. The teaching was that 1799 marked the beginning of the “last days”, and that 1914 would be the year of the end. It wasn’t until much later that, upon bringing Daniel’s “seven times” prophecy into it, the Watchtower found that they could take the 2,520 years that Daniel mentions and subtract it from 1914 to arrive at 607BCE. This was the only way they could add weight to the 1914 teaching, regardless of the fact that NO evidence indicated that 607BCE was the date of Jerusalem’s destruction. And it isn’t like they have this immaculate record when it comes to these things, but quite the opposite. Therefore, the Watchtower has LESS credibility than the secular, historical sources that they refer to diminutively when not in agreement with the 607BCE teaching.
I know my motive is questioned through all of this. But, I’m doing my Christian duty. Acts 17:11 commends the Beroeans for “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so” that they were being told. In verse 3 of that chapter, Paul was said to prove the teachings “using references”. That is what Christians are required to do in their search for the truth. If I am to be criticized for that, then so be it. If you feel the need to follow an organizational policy rather than your heart and what you know about the principles of Christianity such as unconditional love and compassion, then that is your choice. But don’t attach a scriptural basis for doing so. My life is consumed in my service to my Creator…whether that be through prayer, Bible reading, studying, or helping others in need. I love Jehovah God and Jesus Christ very dearly and I every day I endeavor to NOT displease them. I give my wholehearted support to “the Way” of Christianity as the best, most rewarding way of life. I want no other lifestyle for myself. I accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God and as my guidebook to living. To me, the good news about Jesus, what he did for all mankind and what it will mean for all exercising faith in him is the most wonderful, exciting news there is. For any Christian, loyalty to Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, the Bible, the good news, and the way of Christianity must be given priority over everything else.
I hope this information reaches you with an open mind and an open heart.
With much love,
Jason
 
Open mind
Open mind 9 years ago

Wow! 48 views and no responses.
You mentioned at the start of the letter that they requested this information. If so, I think it's great. I'll be surprised if they read it all though. Unless, of course, they're already having doubts. Are they?
Good letter for a Witness that's open to taking a serious look.
Open Mind
 
Homerovah the Almighty
Homerovah the Almighty 9 years ago

Deacon people aren't going to read that it's too long
 
greendawn
greendawn 9 years ago

Most people wouldn't bother reading any post which is that long, it looks overwhelming. You wrote a tremendous amount of detail are they the sort of people that would make the effort to study it?
In short if every single historian and archaeolist in the world don't accept the 607 date then there must be something wrong with the JW approach. They don't even have a reason to be biased against the 607 date which the JWs support so much.
 
Agnes
Agnes 9 years ago

No disrespect intended, but I too feel it's too long. Agnes
 
deaconbluez
deaconbluez 9 years ago

That's cool guys. That's the kind of information I need from you all. I'm going to shorten it. Fortunately, at this length, they would read the whole thing, but I can understand that for you guys it wouldn't be appealing to read something that long. But I want to make it as easy as possible for them, so I'm gonna edit it down. Thanks again!
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago

Make a 587/607 for dummies ... no offense
 
tula
tula 9 years ago

well, I read most of it earlier. I didn't comment because I did not want to say anything negative. But OK. I'll give you my thoughts.
I would think a lot of this would best be discussed INTERACTIVELY.
It sounds more like a dissertation---it makes me think of "straining at a gnat to swallow a fly."
For me, a letter would be shorter and more to the point.
 
vitty
vitty 9 years ago

I didnt read it sorry, maybe you would be better off with bullet points and "some" important info first. Then if you get a reply , then you can go into more detail, point by point.
Goodluck
 
CyrusThePersian
CyrusThePersian 9 years ago

Unlike most of the people here that commented, I like your letter. Then again, though, I'm a detail guy. As to whether you should shorten it, it depends on your parents. Are they the types that like to delve into deep research, or do they just skim the top?
If they like to crack the books and do research, leave your letter alone. If they're skimmers, you might want to shorten it along the lines of Alleymom's brilliant K.I.S.S.approach, which uses nothing but the society's own publications to disprove 607 BCE as the date of Jerusalem's fall.
CyrusThePersian
 
Honesty
Honesty 9 years ago



Make it easy for them. The JW mind is not accustomed to analyze. Here is some information regarding what the Watchtower has printed in regards to the Babylonian kings and how the lengths of their reigns can be calculated to arrive at the date of the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. If you're a dunderhead on Neo-Babylonian history (like me) you've probably remained totally clueless whenever the subject of the chronology leading to back 607 B.C. as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar comes up. It turns out this stuff is a piece of cake! Using ONLY comments by the Watchtower Society and one scripture we can rather easily see their chronology regarding the destruction of Jerusalem. There is really not much to learn here, either: No astronomy, no neo-Babylonian tablets, and no confusing Bible versus will be presented. Just the names of five people and several quotes from Watchtower publications will be used. Also, there is no need to quibble over things like regnal years, ascension years, cardinal and ordinal numbers, etc. Remember, 607 B.C. is a full 20 years earlier than the accepted date of 586/87 B.C. and all the tinkering with a few months here and few partial year reigns there cannot make up a difference of twenty years. Another tricky part to remember is that in order to calculate dates we have to count BACKWARD as you go forward when dealing with time before Christ came to earth. We have to start AFTER the date of Jerusalem's fall with a date and event that is agreed upon by both the WTS and secular historians. From this date we will count backward by counting forward. That date is 539 B.C., the date that Babylon fell to Cyrus the Mede. Keep in mind we are trying to find the date Jerusalem fell.
Insight on the Scriptures published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in volume 1 on page 425 under "Chaldea" has a complete list of the Babylonian kings from Nabopolassar to
Balshazzar:
"Particularly was this domination manifest during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. when Nabopolassar, a native of Chaldea, and his successors, Nebuchadnezzar II, Evil-merodach (Awil-Marduk), Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and Belshazzar, ruled the Third World Power, Babylon."
_______________________________________________________
Insight on the Scriptures published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in volume 2 on page 480 under "Nebuchadnezzar" tells us that he ruled as king for 43 years:
Second ruler of the Neo-Babylonian Empire; son of Nabopolassar and father of Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach), who succeeded him to the throne. Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years...
_______________________________________________________
An article entitled, "The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived" on page 29 in the January 1,1965 Watchtower magazine lists the regnal years of Nebuchadnezzar II's successors from Evil-Merodach to Nabonidus who, in this article the Watchtower confirms was ruler of Babylon when Cyrus conquered it in 539 B.C.:
Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar’s favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.
_______________________________________________________
Let's summarize (remember we have to go backwards starting in 539
B.C. with Nabonidus):
Nabonidus ruled Babylon until it fell in 539 B.C. to Cyrus.
Labashi-Marduk ruled for 9 months.
Neriglissar ruled for 4 years.
Evil-Merodach ruled for 2 years.
Nebuchadnezzer ruled for 43 years.
17 years + 9 months + 4 years + 2 years + 43 years = 66 to 67 years.
Starting at 539 B.C. and going back 66/67 years we arrive at 605/606 B.C. for the start of the reign of Nebuchadnezzer.
2nd Kings 25:8-10 tells us that Jerusalem was destroyed in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzer's reign, so if we go forward 19 years from 605/606 B.C. we will have the approximate years of the destruction of Jerusalem.
Nineteen years after 605/606 B.C. brings us to 586/587 B.C. which agrees with all secular evidence.

 
deaconbluez
deaconbluez 9 years ago

Very helpful replies! Much appreciated!
 
Open mind
Open mind 9 years ago

Thanks Honesty!!
I've read Farkel's "587 BC for Total Dunderheads",
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/74549/1.ashx
but I think your presentation is one of the most straightforward ones I've read yet.
Don't get me wrong Farkel, yours was funnier.
Open Mind
 
eclipse
eclipse 9 years ago

Jason, I read it,
and I thought it was very well presented, very detailed, and very well written.
Yes it is long, but I think every paragraph was very poignant.
Maybe you could make it two letters, one for each subject?
One for the 587/607 and one about Rutherford/ false prophesies?
If you dont mind, may I copy some of it to send to my family?
 
RollerDave
RollerDave 9 years ago

Deac,
You laid it out exhaustively and thoroughly, but others are a bit right about the length.
I read it all, every word, but that's just me.
Have you given thought to the layout?
Introduction that tells what you intend to establish possibly in bullet points, main body with subheadings for each bullet point in the intro, and conclusion that sums up what you established but adds your take on each point in a few sentances and finishes strong and positive.
Always end strong, always end positive.
You got a good head on you, you can do it! (<--- SEE? lol.)
RD
 
dust
dust 9 years ago

Don't attack the Society, and don't accuse it of anything. But present the facts and ask questions as to how they think you ought to relate to these facts.
 

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14-year old flees mind control cult
by TJ - iAmCleared2Land 9 years ago 27 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower child-abuse
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TJ - iAmCleared2Land
TJ - iAmCleared2Land 9 years ago

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/11/fleeing.polygamy.hammon/index.html
Good for her!! There's so many similarities between fundamental Mormonism (and even conventional Mormanism) and JW's it's spooky.
I'm proud of this girl for getting "out". She had a lot to leave behind and lose, but more to gain. I'm glad she could see that. Many can't.
 
Watkins
Watkins 9 years ago

I have to think also that stories of such intelligence and courage will strengthen the resolve of others who see the need to flee from false religions. She's so young to be so brave!
The similarities are indeed spooky. It was only after reading on an X-Mormon site a few years ago that I realized... the wts is no different. Exchange a few buzz-words and it's scary in it's likeness of control issues and ridiculous doctrines. Same, same, wrong, wrong, same...
watkins
 
greendawn
greendawn 9 years ago

Though JWs don't wear aprons with fancy symbols stitched on them like grown up male Mormons do, we must have in mind that both cults were started by masons, Smith who was a self admitted mason and Russell who wouldn't admit it though it was pretty obvious that he was also one.
Both used the masonic cross and crown as one of their main symbols. In its secret heart masonry means occultism and satanism and it's an antichrist religion though only the very top ranks really know this.
 
truthsearcher
truthsearcher 9 years ago

Tonight on tv in Canada is a movie about child abuse, polygamy in the Mormon cult. What a terrible thing for these young girls, being made to marry old horny guys with 9 wives and 36 children already!
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

The difference between russel and the founder of the mormans is that russel was not perfect but the more he studied the bible the more he learnt what was wrong or write we admit he got it wrong over the years but any errors that were made were settled and changed.
Jehovahs witnesses do not conduct disgusting wedding ceremonys that involve the elders getting in on the wedding night action that is pure free masonry and mormanship.
While you all say that is mind control it is not controling what the organization does is it endevours to keep its body clean, you'll hear it anywhere if you are in the crowd thats going down your gonna go down because one bad apple spoils the bunch and thats not even just tied to religion people who are millionares admit it, the people you are around influence where you get in life so the watchtower does what it does in order to keep the congregation clean and follows the BIBLE NOT ANY TEACHING OF ANY PHILOSIPHER!.
many of you mistake Rules for guidelines and principles everybody has free will they make their own choices no one makes their choices for them they are just instructed in the way of god why do people disrespect that people are cynical.
so many of you say hey stuff the jehovahs witnesses religion cause my parents made me do this and do that but if you were in any household there are rules and until you come of age its your parents decision dont blame the organization because the religion is pure it doesnt mean everyone trying to follow it is everyones imperfect you just need to learn who should take responsibility for actions that are taken and that is each human being not as a member of an organization or a race or colour but as a Human.
Stop blaming an organization, it would be like touching gods eye ball and taunting him.
`
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

Jehovahs witnesses are in no way tied to free masonry they use no symbols they use no cross the religion was cleansed of such things as it evolved through years by Study of the bible.
Russell may have been a mason but him and the president of the body that took over after him cleansed and changed as they learnt it was not right in the eyes of god many things have changed over the years but you cannot say we are similar at all ive heard a non-witness philospher clearly distinguish the big difference between witnesses and mormans and clearly exposing the morman religion for what it really is!
 
sosad
sosad 8 years ago

Honez - may I ask why you are using your "free will" to go against this Org you are defending so desperately?
You are "in error- error- error" (three times for emphasis) by posting here, reading here, or responding here
I think you are blaming your lack of faith for not being a "perfect" jw but stop and think about it - are you just questioning what needs questioning? does it seem to you that somehow, something doesn't seem right?
I mean no disrespect but pray for YHWH's Truth, and not to be a better, stronger, faster witness. When I prayed for God's will in my life, instead of for God's help to do what being a jw entailed, it was a very scary moment and also very telling.
take care -
 
anewme
anewme 8 years ago

This is what it will take on the part of all who escape a cult------PUBLIC EXPOSURE!
We must all be brave and expose these cults-------the Watchtower included.

This is an acceptable avenue to do fight the Watchtower. It is not acceptable to turn to violence or pranks to get back at it.




 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

Cramped and narrow is the road leading of to life - thats a quote direct from the bible, in other words you took the easy way out by doing what is right in your own eyes, just as any other person who claims to be a christian that says im okay with god i beleive in him but i dont need church meetings priests or elders to express that.
I may be going against what the organization says but im no going to say hey im the perfect person because im inactive but it does not mean i can not defend something i truly believe in with my whole heart, i have a few thorns in the flesh that i need to deal with before getting back to it.
I speakup because it disgusts me to see jehovah taunted the way people do on here,
so what if russell was a mason in his past
Saul was a killer of gods people matthew was a tax collector.
brother russell once he learned from indepth study in the bible he then used all his money to print the bible what do you call that? he used the whole bible instead of 3 books from it, a clear distinction between the mormans.
there is no one here defending it only a whole lot of people that only bring out the negativity and focus on individuals imperfections no one can attain to perfection and yes everyone seems to expect them to, if there not hey lets burn them to the ground, thats the evidence emitted by so many people.
i am not here in the organizations behalf i am here to Defend my god jehovah which clearly so many people have lost or never knew him.
I have felt gods blessing and the only time in my life i have ever felt it was through his organization. i have felt the spirit and love of god in the organization and it is not that of a cult it is not restrictive to blacks whites jews, asians, or any race it is not restricted to any age. where in the world would you see races show lover for one another instantly can you say that is related to satanism?
when the whole world goes to war who can you say did not take his fellow brothers life?
the witnesses!
When you ask what religion safe guarded hutu ands tutsi people amongst tribal warfare?
the witnesses!
When you ask who could unite so many people from both tribes in one room and have them show love for one another you would say the witnesses so you my friend are sadly mistaken if you believe that its not the work of god
you are sadly mistaken when you say its a cult because who can say all this love and uniting of peoples if from satan? its a quality cults or the devil do not know!
 
Gill
Gill 8 years ago

Honez - There are a huge list of religions that do not go to war, as well as conscientious objectors who have no religion. The JWs claim falsely to be the only religion to do that!
You also make a very fundamental mistake which is not studying the history of the Bible and how it was put together and more importantly WHY!
Until you take on that particular study you really do not know what you are talking about!
The Bible, in my opinion, along with other so called religious books is a slander against God, or whoever it is who created life on this planet.
I personally do not believe that any loving God would sanction the murder of whole tribes, including women, children and babies! Why do you want to believe that. I personally don't believe that God would drown everyone on the planet and save only eight. This is mythology!
Begin to study. It will take you time, but if you want to know for sure, make the effort!
Until then, don't glorify the WTBTS in anyway because you may well be in for a big shock why you discover what the WTBTS really is!
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

you cannot tell me or anyone that the bible isnt true for every prophesy to date has been in fact true!
if what you say is the truth then your existence is pointless why do you carry on living?
6 million people around the world refuse to take up arms in war against eachother! witnesses do not claim to be the only ones but they make up the vast majority.
it was an example of human compassion and love you are simply a disgruntled person who has not relationship with the true god.
you cannot insult my intelligence by saying that i dont know anything because i havent studied where the bible came from ? i dont need to know where it came from i believe in its prophesy! you find any human that was able to make many many predictions and 100% of them came true?
You are but a mere human who are you to question the authenticity of the bible, just because you hate the watchtower organization does not mean there is any need to question the bible.
you are a human being who uses 10% of your brain capacity and you believe that you have all the answers through your vast amount of study, Most certainly in vain!
Explain to me through your superiority in knowledge and wisdom why prophesy has all come true? everything recorded in the bible true.
who taught you where did you get the books you studied were they from the real god or creator?


edited to remove scrolling ~ Scully

 
Gill
Gill 8 years ago

Honez - Your assertion that you do not 'need' to know where the Bible came from says it all!
If you continue to assert that you know God then you are only deluding yourself as he/she is not the monster portrayed in the Bible.
Hence, your need to enlighten yourself!
I'm sorry to have to tell you that there are NO prophecies that have come true in the Bible and much was written 'after' the event.
Study of 'who' put the Bible the Bible together and why could help you!
YOu can insult me as to my lack of 'intelligence' Honez until you are blue in the face but it will make no difference. I was once like you and believed as you, and so know where you are 'coming from'. My sympathies are with you and I hope you will decide to find out how and why you and so many of us have been conned!
Peace to you and I promise that God is not the monster portrayed in the Bible and there really is nothing to fear but fear itself!
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

And my friend you are mistaken i have studied where it came from who were its writers and why.
then explain love? explain the quality of love explain the worldwide acceptance of people they barely know peoples of different races and every form of diversity thinkable?
when the world was only thought to be flat for centurys men thought this but the bible shed light on this?
explain what divine creature other than the creator that inspired this?
Quite honestly i am through with this- For Every single person on this site may god show you mercy for you know not what you do, may he grant you eternal life though we all do not deserve it.
You have all been shown the truth and yet you have rejected it i see why you are all blinded for god is not with you and satan has claimed his people and taunted the holy god.
Get out of her, While you can i plead with you all out of love for you all my brothers my sisters who have fallen there is yet hope for everyone of you....
God is merciful God is loving God is patient .... but his patience is running short,
if anyone one of you has any single bit of hope or belief in anything that has been shown you, Return you will be welcomed back with open arms
Faithfulness morals chastity it is a small price to pay for eternal life....

God Bless ,

Honi
 
greendawn
greendawn 8 years ago

This religion seems to be a way of sexual licentiousness, just imagine that man alerady had 19 wives and as if that wasn't enough he was sexually exploiting his daughter since her preteens.
Obviously one man can't satisfy 19 women so they would all suffer in sexual frustration.
 
Gill
Gill 8 years ago

Honez - I'm afraid that 'earth hanging up nothing' is not what you think. You need to study the ancient Jewish beliefs to understand what that scripture really means as this is another misuse of scripture by the JWs!
I think Leolaia will have the proper interpetation of that scripture and I will also look up the information for you, though it may take a little time.
Naturally, I am immensely sorry for your attitude, but having been there, I do understand it!
We on this board, are not from Satan as you assert. IT has taken a lot of time and pain and even loss for many of us to walk away from that manipulative book publishing company that you refer to as 'The Truth'. All I can say is that you have now seen the 'other side' and I can understand your total horror at the possible realisation that you have yourself been fooled and conned into worshipping a book publishing company that has the tricks of mind control and manipulation to use against innocents such as yourself!
I can quite understand your wanting to run back to 'Momma', but I'm afraid now you 'know' what 'Momma' really is, she will never be the same to you, and if she ever finds out that you actually KNOW, well, all I can say, is you can deny a truth until you are blue in the face, but you can never unknow it!
That WTBTS is nothing but a Scam!
 
Scully
Scully 8 years ago

Honez:

Jehovahs witnesses are in no way tied to free masonry they use no symbols they use no cross the religion was cleansed of such things as it evolved through years by Study of the bible.
Russell may have been a mason but him and the president of the body that took over after him cleansed and changed as they learnt it was not right in the eyes of god many things have changed over the years but you cannot say we are similar at all ive heard a non-witness philospher clearly distinguish the big difference between witnesses and mormans and clearly exposing the morman religion for what it really is!
The Watchtower Society teaches that it passed "inspection" by Jesus Christ in 1919, when CT Russell was the president of the WTS and all these things you say were later "cleansed" out were being done. They celebrated Christmas, birthdays, Easter, accepted blood transfusions, allowed smoking, and used the cross and crown symbols of freemasonry on the literature at that time.
Was Jesus mistaken in his inspection process? Is that what you are saying?
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

Your Efforts to sway me do nothing you only make my faith stronger! even though you may think your not any way tied to the devil you are unknowingly carrying out his work! the devil seeks to mislead all and you are lying in the power of the wicked one. there is no scam the so called book company does not make money its rescources are spent reaching the truth out to all people what does is seek to gain from this scam? .... I Have seen the manifestation of love my friend and if god saw fit to sacrifice alot of bad to save the good so be it no one can question it! as a faithful old brother said who is dying right now and still faitfful to the end, "we are the best of a bad bunch"
why spoil all of humanity? you are but blinded by satan. and there is no convincing you of anything may hope for you lie with god
 
Gill
Gill 8 years ago

Honez - There are non so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE!
I would never want you to stop being a JW if that is what you NEED to believe.
But what we NEED is not always what is truthful. But you must make your own choices. I would never wish to sway you from what you want or need to believe!
May the WT Society always prove to be what you want it to be and may you never feel 'Momma's iron fist in the silken glove!'
 
Guest with Questions
Guest with Questions 8 years ago

Honez: I don't think anyone is trying to sway you from your beliefs. We all have the choice to reject or accept a belief. My problem is that you seem to think that the Jehovah Witness Org is the only true belief system and that JW's are morally superior.
even though you may think your not any way tied to the devil you are unknowingly carrying out his work! the devil seeks to mislead all and you are lying in the power of the wicked one.
I beg to differ. Could it be that this org is actually led by the wicked one? You state that your faith is actually strengthened. Strange, when my parents became witnesses, for a short time, I questioned if this org could actually be true. I did look into it. I did read the bible and did read books before ever coming to the Internet for information. My conclusion was the more I looked into it, the more I realized that this org was farther from the truth than any mainline churches I attended. It actually strengthened my faith.
On another thread I wrote you specifically. I do hope you read and hopefully respond to it.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/143711/1.ashx
 
Open mind
Open mind 8 years ago

Honez said:
God is patient .... but his patience is running short,
If the Watchtower's version of God was actually merciful, loving and patient he would not be planning the imminent slaughter of over 6 billion humans. If you don't believe that is the current teaching, go back about a month in the Revelation book and read the paragraphs on what kind of people will survive the Great Tribulation. The only honest answer is: active JWs in good standing. Even inactive JWs are in big trouble according to the Revelation book.
OK, if only active JWs are going to survive, then a merciful god would have brought Armageddon shortly after 1914 or maybe 1919. Every year that Jehovah has "patiently" allowed to go by in recent years, will result in the death of 80 MILLION MORE non-JW men, women and children at Armageddon. Don't try saying "Jehovah is the judge" and we shouldn't concern ourselves with what he does. Yes he is the judge, but then the Revelation book has the gall to turn around and TELL US EXACTLY HOW he's going to do the judging. This is such an evil teaching, the WT will never concisely put it into a single sentence because they realize how horrible it sounds.
80 Million my friend. Every year that goes by. 80 million more human corpses on the post-Armageddon bird food pile. Hitler only got 6 million. Stalin got 50 million. Those guys were saints in comparison to the Watchtower's version of God.
Open Mind
 

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14-year old flees mind control cult
by TJ - iAmCleared2Land 9 years ago 27 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower child-abuse
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Honez
Honez 8 years ago

The wicked one does not emmit the quality of love. love is a god like quality and ive seen the love of god in so many forms in the organization ive seen a wife abuser change and through love and while it is not the only religion to help people change it is still done by love for god that is the mark of god, that we have love among ourselves... everything is done in love my family has been feed when we had no money and we didnt even tell anyone my parents prayed to god and groceries turned up on our door. guess who it was, witnesses.
many experiences many expressions of love!
and second witnesses are not morally superior at all i was just defending something that i saw as wrong because people just pick and pick and pick and pick at it and never express the good things about the organization...
Charles Taz Russel changed over the years and it was by indepth study of the bible with other brothers that he came to see these unclean things, the difference between russel and a lot of others he died preaching till the day he died. ....mainline religion say things that most people dont even understand people in mainline religion go to church to buy there way into heaven to show that they are doing whats right doesnt mean they take it away and apply it in their lifes 4billion people in the world claim to be catholic. now catholic is the most mainline religion you can find if catholic is so right about the bible and its teachings why isnt the world a better place! i can garuntee you now that if the world followed the bible as the witnesses do crime would be abolished! wars would be no more. many people who are non religious have even said it!
why have i seen first hand seen priests gob smacked by a humble lowly witness?
Love covers all.
witnesses love, and no matter whether you people say the bible is lies and the bible cannot be trusted, ive seen first hand why is it is authentic! because it changes peoples lives it makes them better people it has changesd murderers and all sorts of people if we lived by it the world would be a beautiful place that in itself proves it was made by our creator because it teaches us what works and what doesnt it teaches us that if we lived by it everything will go right for us,,,, and i am not currently an active witness what i meant by strengthened is it has pushed me to want to go back cause i feel sorry for people like you who have lost their way and i dont want to become like people with no hope. and from experience life has been easier when i embraced my god and the bible.. because he took my burdens away
you people can put your opinion across but god will have the last say and every man is accountable to god, and for your sake i sure hope im that you are right.
thanx for all the feedback but i feel there is no arguing with anyone on these matters for your acusations suck and clearly prove you no little about the true meanings you judge things that have been and gone and have been improved on and done away with so yup
no need for anyones feed back good bye have a nice life for whats left of it....
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

Life is tough god is tough but he has given all a chance so dont whine and complain that god is unreaonable if you had a house and people treated it badly would you want them to occupy it. of coarse not be realistic its because of people like hitler that god must deal with it like this . would you rather god brought back hitler? yes you may have hitler!
Unreasonable people god has given us all years to change but we dont we put it to the side and say its not the truth we deny the truth because the truth hurts the truth is hard but god is giving us a chance after years and years of bad practices god has Given everyone a chance and you want to complain about how thats unloving? you have got to be kidding me you would make a great land lord you know let people ruin your house let people bring it to the ground and say hey ill build you another one because you know its not your fault you dont have free will you ruined the house by default no ones fault
THIS IS YOUR REASONING?
RIDICULOUS!
That is the weakest stuff ive ever heard it is a bunch of moaning about somebody who has given you all your life who has given you every chance but its to unbelievable for you that if you dont do what is needed of you, you will die...
sorry its a harsh reality but every man has added to it and made it that way...
 
Siamsa
Siamsa 8 years ago

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Check out your own history - in this particular case the history of your own chosen religion and its founders and leaders, Charles Taze Russell, 'Judge' Rutherford etc. The information is freely available through copies of publications that can be read and examined. No one is forcing you to do anything that you are not comfortable with. No one forced you to come here. No one is trying to sell you anything here. No one will think badly of you regardless of your beliefs. You have nothing to fear but fear itself. Dont let fear rule your life.
Seek and you WILL find. If you are a genuine seeker and not a blind follower, you will find. It may not be what you you want to find and it may not be where you want to find it, but it is there waiting for you to find.
Any one can recognise a tree by the fruit it produces. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd there is no need to eat it just to be absolutely sure. Remember this, you cannot polish a turd no matter how hard you try :wink:
The apostles were imperfect men but they were never accused of abusing children, refusing to acknowledge the crime and then covering it up.
Do you recognise what sort of a 'tree' that would condone, cover up and then 'justify' by equivocating with other 'false' religions.
To equivocate is to justify.

Wishing you all that you would wish for others.

Siamsa.
 
Princess Daisy Boo
Princess Daisy Boo 8 years ago

Honez, honey..... just go already - hanging aroung here is just gonna give you high blood pressure or something. When you are ready to face the truth, you will remember the some of the things you have discovered here and all the pieces of the puzzle will fall into place for you, but in the meantime, just go and do what you need to do.
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

you are wrong in fact the apostle peter denied knowing jesus numerous times? and your right none were perfect example judas he betrayed jesus so you cant say that they never did wrong things that were that serious judas practically killed our savior.? because there were liars and deceiful ones and this one among them was judas. and just as that is there are people who are goning to turn away from god there are people who make mistakes dont expect them to be perfect.
. witnesses do not hide things its simply not the way if people are doing wrong they are counciled for it and if they continually do it they are disfellowshiped and if the matter is that serious and they have legal grounds to contact the secular authorities about it they do..
. ive read the child abuse files and i see the misunderstandings that people have made with it such as the need to have 2 witnesses thing? nothing cannot be done with out proof but pure hearsay and thats what most things are you simply cannot do anything about it in some circumstances when it comes to legal authorities?..
. if the organization has made mistakes write to them im sure they will not seek to hide there actions and they will admit when they make mistakes. they are humbe people.
 
Honez
Honez 8 years ago

okay thats what i need to do leave it in gods hands i have my beliefs you have yours and what i need to do is leave when i found this site i thought hey whats this witnesses communicating with eachother via the internet then when i found this was an ex witness site a kkk sort of anti witness site lol i was shocked because it all goes against my beliefs and continually feel defensive,,,,, but yes thank you for not being hateful but basically trying to shed light on it for me.... i am not simply a blind follower as some have said?
i am simply a person who bases his faith on what he has felt what he has seen with in the organization and how it has accepted him personally, i dont know how it is in many areas of the world but in this modern day the congregation in New Zealand i was brought up in has really shown me alot and you know ive fallen far from it i am 17. i was baptised at the age of 11 i was a regular pioneer before i was 15...my father was an elder my mother a regualar pioneer my sister one too! and ive been taught well what i know and ,i am now in the world and i see no hope in it and from all the experience ive had in the organization all my life is basically overwhelming and just made me happy...i understand many of you have vast more experience vast more knowledge but i know what i know and that is that i have felt gods blessing! and now i know what its like to be without it..
 
Siamsa
Siamsa 8 years ago

Honez,
Keep seeking and the scales will fall from your eyes. Remember it is in the nature of all humans to fall short of perfection. It is a liar that will tell you otherwise. Any one who tells you when they make decisions or rules affecting your life that it is based on their own personal divine guidence is a liar. Any one who seeks to commit, cover up and then equivocate in order to justify wrongdoing or rotteness is a liar. It is easy to recognise truth, it is hard to recognise a lie but the fruits of a liar are self evident.
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
What is the lie that had deceived the world ?
Wishing you all that you would wish for others.

Siamsa.
 
Siamsa
Siamsa 8 years ago

I guess that Homez has been "gobsmacked" by the reasoned debate he found here. On the other hand it could be the disciplinary proceedings initiated against him by his loving, open, non dictatorial and Christian Organisation.
I guess he has retreated to the warm comfort blanket of the ghetto.
Maybe he will be ready when the next ship arrives !
 

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Topic Summary
http://www.cnn.com/2007/us/law/09/11/fleeing.polygamy.hammon/index.html.
good for her!!
there's so many similarities between fundamental mormonism (and even conventional mormanism) and jw's it's spooky.. i'm proud of this girl for getting "out".



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Mormon memoir, "Leaving The Saints" A reminder of JWs' religion-A long read
by AndersonsInfo 10 years ago 0 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 10 years ago

TO INTRODUCE YOU TO THE EXCELLENT MEMOIR, "LEAVING THE SAINTS," BY MARTHA BECK, THE MAJORITY OF THE FOLLOWING THREE PARAGRAPHS HAVE BEEN COPIED FROM INSIDE OF THE BOOK’S FRONT JACKET, EXCEPT BRACKETED MATERIAL.
“Leaving the Saints is an unforgettable memoir about one woman's spiritual quest and journey toward faith. As ‘Mormon royalty’ within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Martha Beck was raised in a home frequented by the Church's high elders-known as the apostles-and her existence was framed by their strict code of conduct. [Her father was put on a high pedestal in the church ‘by virtue of his singular skill as an apologist.’ He was ‘an intellectual warrior who served eagerly and well at the behest of the highest Church authorities, vigorously counterattacking scholars and writers who cast aspersions on the Mormon belief system.’ P. 32]
Martha married in a secret temple ceremony. She went to church faithfully. When her son was born with Down syndrome, she and her husband left their graduate programs at Harvard to return to Provo, Utah, where they knew the supportive Mormon community would embrace them. [Martha stated on page 25: ‘I thought it would help to return to my people, people whose spiritual focus shone through in practically every action, every conversation.’” P. 25
However, soon after Martha began teaching at Brigham Young University, she began to see firsthand the Church's ruthlessness as it silenced dissidents and masked truths that contradicted its published beliefs. Most troubling of all, she was forced to face her history of sexual abuse by one of the Church's most prominent authorities [her father].”
THE FOLLOWING QUOTES FROM "LEAVING THE SAINTS" WILL SURELY REMIND JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES OF THE SIMILARITY BETWEEN THEIR RELIGION AND THE CHURCH OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. FOR THE READERS CONVENIENCE, CAPITALIZED COMPARITIVE STATEMENTS FOLLOW EACH QUOTE FROM THE BOOK.
1. Page 25. “Mormonism is what sociologists call a ‘life world’ religion, not a back-of-mind relic that rises into conscious attention only during Sunday services but a way of living that flavors everything from watching television to choosing perfume to mowing the lawn."
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES CALL THEIR RELIGION THE “WAY” OF LIFE AND ONLY THEIR “WAY” IS THE “TRUTH.” THAT TRUTH COLORS ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE FROM BIRTH TO DEATH.
2. Page 60. “They [Latter-day Saints] don’t tell you you’re going to make this vow when you go in: They spring it on you after you’re already in so deep, having mimed your own death and all, that it’s pretty impossible to say no.”
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES DO NOT TELL PEOPLE THAT WHEN THEY ARE BAPTIZED AS A WITNESS, THEY ARE COMMITTED TO OBEY AN ECCLESIASTICAL GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS THE RIGHT TO INTRODUCE ANY RULE AT ANY TIME? IF THE RULES ARE NOT OBEYED, THE PENALTY IS EXCOMMUNICATION AND SHUNNING BY WITNESS FRIENDS AND WITNESS FAMILY MEMBERS.
3. Page 140. After remembering the sexual abuse Martha said, “After a few wretched weeks, I decided to confide in a close friend from Boston who was a psychotherapist as well as a devout Mormon. I knew I count on Laura to keep my secret and desperately hoped she might be able to help me feel a little less like blowing my head off. Laura’s response: ‘This could be a serious problem for the Church,’ Laura said. ‘The Church?’ I said, sounding young and stupid. ‘I mean it Martha,’ Laura said. ‘You can’t tell anyone anything. At all. Okay?’ ‘Maybe this is your mission,’ said Laura in a soothing voice. ‘To protect the Church. To honor the secret.’”
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES ARE TAUGHT NOT TO BRING ANY “REPROACH” UPON “GOD’S” ORGANIZATION. HENCE, TO PROTECT IT, THEY WILL GO SO FAR AS TO COVER UP CRIMES COMMITTED BY ONE MEMBER UPON ANOTHER.
4. Page 163. “I’d spent the better part of three years trusting external structures and organizations, keeping every rule of every spiritual discipline I could imagine, quieting my own resistance, aiming for total obedience and humility. But continuing to do this would mean protecting the Mormon Church by keeping a dark secret, which would isolate me in a life of smothered rage and hopelessness. It felt wrong. I was in what felt like a no-win situation: my internal moral system was directly at odds with my family, my community, my ancestral religion.”
EVERY WITNESS KNOWS SOME SORT OF A “SECRET” TO KEEP FROM THOSE ON THE “OUTSIDE” AND THEY KEEP THE SECRET SO “NO REPROACH COMES UPON JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION.”
5. The following is a very interesting account of Martha meeting a Mormon man in the grocery store who recognized her as her father’s daughter. He told Martha that her father was a liar. This said about the most important apologist for the Mormon Church. He explained that he used to have a job for her dad’s publisher and checked his footnotes. Martha noted that her father’s footnotes were part of his legend. He had hundreds in every book. Her father’s accuser went on to say that her father made them up, or at least 90 percent of them. He said:
P. 165. “I helped cover it up, you know.” “…At first I was shocked. I went to the guy in charge of our team and showed him a couple of the sources your dad said he was quoting. Sometimes what he said was exactly the opposite of what the author meant. Sometimes a quotation he’d footnoted just wasn’t there. My team leader told me your dad’s gift was that he could see anything on any page that needed to be there.”
Martha asked, “What did you do?”
The reply: “I just … pretended. We all did, everyone on the team.”
He went on to tell Martha he did it because he needed the job and if he made issues, he would have been blackballed by the church.
“In this state, he said, “you don’t just go around spouting stuff that may be a problem for the Church. Like, some of the other fact-checkers on my team got a little mouthy after we finished the project. They’re not doing well. Can’t get jobs. Incredible pressure from their families. Hints about excommunication, so I keep my mouth shut.”
WHEN ALAN F WAS A WITNESS, HE BEGAN TO DOUBLE-CHECK THE SOURCES AND FOOTNOTES IN SOME WATCHTOWER PUBLICATIONS AND FOUND A SIMILAR SITUATION. WHEN ALAN TRIED TO QUIZ A WATCHTOWER SOCIETY SENIOR WRITER ABOUT HIS FINDINGS, THE CONVERSATION WAS QUICKLY ENDED BY AN ANGRY WRITER WHO, WE SUSPECT, WAS VERY AWARE OF WHAT HE AND OTHERS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR—GROSS MISREPRESENTATION OF FACTS, QUOTES, ETC.
6. Page 176. “Mormons are discouraged from reading any materials about the Church that are not produced through official channels and approved by a panel called the Correlation Committee, notorious among Mormon authors (including my father) for its strict censorship. These are the folks who create the standardized teaching manuals for the whole worldwide Church, who carefully edit out even tangential references to the ‘alternative voices’ that teach things like evolutionary biology, modernist moral reasoning, and the wearing of nonstandard underwear—anything, in other words, that might shed the slightest shadow of doubt in the minds of the faithful.”
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES ARE TOLD THAT ONLY THEIR LITERATURE SPEAKS “TRUTH” ABOUT JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES; THAT ANY CRITICISM OF THE GROUP ORIGINATES FROM DISSIDENT FORMER JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, OR FROM A WORLD CONTROLLED BY SATAN. THEY ARE CONVINCED CRITICISM IS PART OF THE PERSECUTION THEY, AS “TRUE” CHRISTIANS, SHOULD EXPECT.
7. Page 182. “What researchers found in modern Mormonism was similar to the attitudes expressed in my great-great-grandfather’s journal: Women who sought advice or help after being sexually abused were most often told to be silent, keep their secrets, and ask themselves whether they were really sure it wasn’t their fault—or their imagination. They experienced what psychologists call sanctuary trauma, the result of their running for protection to the very places and people who reaffirmed the message of the original abuse. Reading interview after interview with Mormon women who had been molested in various ways, then re-traumatized by the reaction of Church leaders, I often felt overwhelmed by despair.”
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BRING ALL COMPLAINTS ABOUT CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE TO THEIR ELDERS AND HAVE TO PROVE THE ACCUSATION BY PROVIDING WITNESSES TO THE EVENT. IF NO WITNESSES—NO PROOF—AND THE ABUSED ONE IS COUNSELED TO REMAIN SILENT. OFTENTIMES VICTIMS ARE RE-VICTIMIZED BY THE TYPE OF PERSONAL QUESTIONS THE ELDERS ASK ABOUT THE SEXUAL ABUSE, OR ARE TOLD THEY HAVE TO FACE THEIR ABUSER AND MAKE THE ACCUSATION. IF THE ABUSER DENIES THE ACCUSATION, THEN IT’S FORGIVE AND FORGET.
8. Page 188. Martha says, “They would actually excommunicate someone for hating Elder Clement’s master’s theses?” I couldn’t believe it. Throughout my life, I’d heard of being “exed” as the ultimate shame, something that only happened to hard-core sinners.
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES’ POLICY IS TO EXCOMMUNICATE ONLY UNREPENTANT SINNERS. SINNERS WHO REPENT ARE NOT EXCOMMUNICATED UNLESS THEY ARE HARD-CORE REPEATERS. JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES WHO QUESTION THEIR RELIGION’S POLICIES OR BELIEFS ARE LABELED “APOSTATES” BY THE ELDERS AND EXCOMMUNICATED. AN ANNOUNCEMENT IS MADE TO THE CONGREGATION THAT “JOHN DOE IS NO LONGER ONE OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES” AND THE WITNESSES KNOW FROM THIS STATEMENT THAT JOHN DOE HAS BEEN EXCOMMUNICATED AND THEY ARE TO SHUN HIM. SINCE NO REASON FOR EXCOMMUNICATION IS EVER GIVEN TO THE CONGREGATION, AND JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES ARE TAUGHT THAT ONLY UNREPENTANT SINNERS ARE EXCOMMUNICATED, SO JOHN DOE IS BELIEVED TO BE AN “UNREPENTANT SINNER.” THIS IS IMPLIED DEFAMATION.
9. Page 188. “The Church isn’t after Orson because he hated the thesis,” Scott exclaimed. “They’re after him because he said he hated it. It’s the eleventh commandment. The most important one to the brethren. Thou shall not commit publicity.”
JUST LIKE THE CHURCH OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES DO NOT WANT PUBLICITY ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS AND SHORTCOMINGS. GOING PUBLIC ABOUT PROBLEMS WITHIN THE GROUP MERITS EXCOMMUNICATION. FOUR MEMBERS WERE EXCOMMUNICATED FOR WHISTLEBLOWING ON THE NBC DATELINE PROGRAM IN 2002 ABOUT THE SERIOUS PROBLEM OF SEXUAL CHILD ASSAULT WITHIN JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES’ GROUP.
10. Pages 188-89. “The cold lump of fear that had lodged in my stomach during my conversation with Allen was growing heavier and chillier by the minute. As a sociologist, I understood that the Mormon Church was undergoing something common to most rapidly growing organizations: its leaders were having to work harder and harder to manage public image and that meant strictly controlling anyone who might damage the Church’s reputation.”
“They called in Jenny Knutsen last week,” said Eliza. “They don’t like the way she writes about polygamy.” Jenny (not her real name) was a passionately devout Mormon historian who wrote both inspirational and academic articles about the Church. “And here’s the creepy thing,” Eliza went on. “Jenny just moved to a new ward, right? So her bishop barely knew her. But he had a file on his desk about an inch thick, with copies of everything Jenny’s ever written, notes on every talk she ever gave in church, even a list of her friends and some of the articles they’d published.”
WHEN A WITNESS MOVES, THE CONGREGATION SENDS A RECORD CARD AND A REPORT TO THE NEW CONGREGATION WHERE THE WITNESS WILL ATTEND. AT THE WITNESS HEADQUARTERS IN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK, THERE ARE RECORDS ON WITNESSES THAT GO BACK DECADES. ONE WITNESS LEARNED OF THIS IN THE EARLY 1980S IN A RATHER STRANGE WAY. HE WAS A LONG-TIME ACTIVE MEMBER SINCE 1952. WHEN JOINING THE HEADQUARTER STAFF AS A VOLUNTEER WORKER, AND WHILE MEETING WITH AN OFFICIAL OF THE ORGANIZATION, HE WAS STARTLED TO HEAR HIS WIFE OF TWENTY-THREE YEARS BEING CALLED BY THE NAME OF HIS FORMER WIFE, WHO HE HAD BEEN MARRIED TO FOR ONLY ONE YEAR, TWENTY-EIGHT YEARS PREVIOUSLY. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN WHEN THIS OFFICIAL AND THESE PEOPLE HAD NEVER MET BEFORE? APPARENTLY, THE OFFICIAL LOOKED AT FILES KEPT SINCE 1953 WHERE THE NAME OF THE FORMER WIFE OF THIS MAN WAS RECORDED WHEN THE COUPLE WAS IN THE FULL-TIME MINISTRY WORK. THE OFFICIAL MUST HAVE ASSUMED THAT THE WOMAN HE WAS MEETING IN 1982 WAS THE SAME WOMAN THE MAN WAS MARRIED TO IN 1953.
11. Page 189. “I stared at her. ‘How is that possible? Where did he get that much information?’”
The Strengthening the Membership Committee,” said Sterling.
The what?”
It’s a squad of investigators who work for the Church. Very hush-hush. A lot of ex-CIA guys. Did you know the CIS recruits Mormons like crazy?”
They probably have files on all of us,’ Scott said matter-of-factly. ‘They gather information about most BYU professors. Anyone who might influence public opinion. Sometimes they stake out rebels’ houses and take down the license plate numbers of anyone who comes to visit them. Then those people are suspects. Next thing you know, they’re getting hauled in by their own bishops, maybe put on trial.”
RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT OF THE NAMES OF WITNESSES WHO ARE NOT VERY COMPLIANT. HOWEVER, JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES “MARK” MEMBERS WHO DO NOT TOW THE PARTY LINE AND APPEAR TO BE TOO OUTSPOKEN WITH THEIR COMPLAINTS. THIS IS MORE A PSYCHOLOGICAL THING THAN ANYTHING ELSE. MEMBERS WHO ARE MARKED ARE NOT USED FOR “SPECIAL” ASSIGNMENTS AND MEMBERS “WHISPER” THEIR DISSATISFACTION TO EACH OTHER ABOUT THE “IMMATURE” MEMBER.
12. Page 189. “Hey, here’s a good one,” said Sterling. “I know an assistant professor over in the English department who got called in a couple of weeks ago so his bishop could order him to stop ‘lunching with known dissidents.’”
THERE IS A STRONG PROBABILITY THAT LUNCHING WITH A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS DISSIDENT COULD CAUSE A WITNESS TO BE EXCOMMUNICATED. A WITNESS WHO IS SEEN LUNCHING WITH AN EXCOMMUNICATED MEMBER WOULD BE EXCOMMUNICATED.
13. Page 191. “The only thing scarier than telling my secrets would be keeping them. When the ‘sensitive information’ you carry is your own history, going mute to protect the system doesn’t keep you from being destroyed; it just means that you destroy yourself. ‘What profiteth it a man,’ Jesus said, ‘if he should gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?’ For a long time I felt as though my soul was lost, hidden even from my own understanding, to protect me from the consequences of openness in a culture that demanded my silence. Now that I know what it feels like to be whole, my worst fear is not death, but a return to that soulless existence.”
A WITNESS, WHO IS A SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIM OF A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS MOLESTER, AND CAN NOT PRODUCE OTHER WITNESSES TO THE MOLESTATION TO PROVE THEIR ACCUSATION IS TRUE, IS INSTRUCTED BY THE ELDERS NOT TO TELL ANYONE OR THEY WILL BE EXCOMMUNICATED. ALSO, JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, WHO ARE CHILD ABUSE VICTIMS, KNOW THAT THEY HAVE TO KEEP SILENT TO PROTECT THE REPUTATION OF THEIR RELIGION. CONSEQUENTLY, KEEPING SILENT USUALLY CAUSES THE VICTIM TO HAVE SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS.
14. Page 193. “Someone at the Church headquarters in Salt Lake City leaked a confidential copy of a speech made by one of the apostles, pinpointing intellectuals and feminists as two of the most scurrilous ‘enemies of the Church in the latter days.’”
INTELLIGENT WOMEN WITHIN THE MEMBERSHIP OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES ARE NOT ACCEPTED AND DO NOT FIT IN IF THEY EXHIBIT TRAITS OF INTELLECTUALISM AND FEMINISM. THEY BECOME “MARKED.”
15. Page 208. “There was, however, one type of perpetrator profile that fit my father like a glove: the charismatic religious narcissist, a man who believes himself to be specially chosen by God to do things that are forbidden to others and who has a profoundly split horror/fascination response to sexuality. The abuse I remembered wasn’t about lust. It wasn’t even about sex, except as a form of torture or even symbolic death. No, it was all about religion.”
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES HAVE PROPORTIONATELY A HIGH INCIDENCE OF DISENFRANCHISED, UNEDUCATED MEN. WHEN THEY BECOME WITNESSES, MEN ARE ENCOURAGED TO BECOME ELDERS. IT IS THEN THAT FORMERLY “POWERLESS MEN” ARE GIVEN POWER, AND WITH IT, CONTROL OVER WOMEN AND CHILDREN. MANY HAVE UN-RECONCILED CONTROL ISSUES THAT CAUSE DEEP FRUSTRATION WHICH CAN LEAD TO RAPE AND CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. IT IS THOUGHT BY EXPERTS THAT SEXUAL CRIMES ARE POWER AND CONTROL ISSUES.
16. Page 229. “Mormons who leave the fold, unlike apostates from other faiths, tend to avoid joining any other church. I think there are at least two reasons for this: first, because Mormonism is so all-pervading, so exclusive of other creeds, and, second, because Latter-day Saints are actually taught to test religious claims against their own sense of truth. This approach to learning, encouraged by Joseph Smith and his successors, made Mormonism very appealing to the religious seekers of the nineteenth century.”
STATISTICALLY, A HIGH PROPORTION OF FORMER JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES AVOID JOINING OTHER FAITHS. OFTEN TIMES THEY TRY TO BECOME PART OF A CHURCH, BUT IT’S AN EMPTY GESTURE BECAUSE MOST RELIGIONS DO NOT CONTROL THEIR MEMBERS’ LIVES, SOMETHING JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, LIKE MORMONS, ARE ACCUSTOMED TO, SO THE NEW RELIGION DOESN’T HAVE A GOOD “FIT.” IN ADDITION, MANY TIMES, JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, WHO LEAVE THEIR RELIGION, ARE “BURNED OUT” AND DO NOT WANT TO BE ACTIVE IN A RELIGION AGAIN.
17. PAGE 231. “For months, John and I had variations on this conversation over and over again, with many different authority figures. Since we were both working at BYU, our regular job evaluations included questions about our religious practices and beliefs, the state of our ‘testimonies.’ Did we believe that the Mormon president was the world’s one true prophet? Did we support the General Authorities in all matters? Did we refrain from studying or teaching anything that might undermine the teachings of the Church?”
IF A WITNESS PUBLICLY QUESTIONS HIS RELIGION, ELDERS WILL CONVENE A JUDICIAL HEARING AND ASK THE QUESTIONER, “DO YOU BELIEVE THE GOVERNING BODY IS GOD’S EARTHLY SPOKESMEN? DO YOU SUPPORT THE GOVERNING BODY IN ALL MATTERS? DO YOU REFRAIN FROM READING OR TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING THAT UNDERMINES THE TEACHINGS OF THE GOVERNING BODY?"
18. Pages 239-40. “To the Mormon community, [excommunication] was worse than the death penalty; it could mean that the accused would spend eternity in the telestial kingdom (an ignominiously low level of the afterlife, without even visitation rights to the better kingdoms). More immediately, it meant literal excommunication, exclusion from community, from connection. If they humbled themselves, waited a year, and applied for rebaptism, they may once again become members of the Church, but they could never really redeem their tarnished reputations. For a pioneer people, accustomed to a level of interdependency rare in the United States, this was a horrifying prospect. It was similar to the penalty mura hachibut, ‘expulsion from the village,’ in feudal Japan, where many people found suicide preferable to living as exiles.”
TO JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, EXCOMMUNICATION IS WORSE THAN THE DEATH PENALTY BECAUSE IN THE EYES OF THE WITNESSES AN EXCOMMUNICATED MEMBER IS VIEWED AS SPIRITUALLY DEAD, AND, THEREFORE, WILL DIE AT ARMAGEDDON. REINSTATEMENT CAN ONLY HAPPEN WHEN THE EXCOMMUNICATED PERSON PROVES BY HIS WORKS THAT HE/SHE IS REPENTANT. ONCE REINSTATED, THE MEMBER CAN, BECAUSE OF THEIR WORKS, EVENTUALLY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SOME “SPECIAL” SERVICE, BUT THE EXPULSION WILL ALWAYS BE ON THEIR RECORD. SOME EXCOMMUNICATED JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES HAVE COMMITTED SUICIDE BECAUSE OF BEING SHUNNED BY FAMILY AND FRIENDS. THEY COULD NOT ENDURE THE ISOLATION AND LONELINESS.
19. Page 240. “Throughout Utah, prayer groups formed to support the accused heretics, who quickly became known as the September Six. Demonstrators picketed Church buildings, wrote letters, and chanted slogans, hoping to convince Latter-day Saint leaders to call off the Councils of Love. Mormon authorities countered by privately hinting that all the accused were adulterers and by making public statements that likened the intellectuals to ‘ravening wolves among the flocks.’”
EXCOMMUNICATED JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES HAVE SUED THEIR RELIGION FOR DEFAMATION BECAUSE OF LIES SPREAD ABOUT THEM BY OTHER MEMBERS.
20. Page 242. “On the other hand, when I chanced to pass a distant relative or childhood friend on the street, they often turned quickly away, becoming obsessed with cracks in the pavement or tree trunks until I was safely out of range. I didn’t know if they had decided to “shun” me, or if they were simply afraid someone would catch them speaking to me. What I did know was that my life was coming perilously close to the condition of mara hachibu. Even though I knew this was a result of my own choices, my own failure to conform, it felt strange, alienating and confusing, to be a pariah.”
THE TREATMENT OF FORMER AND EXCOMMUNICATED JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS MS. BECK ENCOUNTERED. TO BE SHUNNED IS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND THAT’S EXACTLY WHY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES DO IT.
21. Page 243. “John [Martha’s husband] handed me the letter, his face pale but determined. I read it. It was his official resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
“Look,” said John, “they’ve drawn a line in the sand. They exed those people to say that if you don’t believe certain things, if you know too much, you aren’t Mormon anymore. And, well, I don’t believe those things. I know too much.”
WHEN ONE OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES DISCOVERS ORGANIZATIONAL “SECRETS” AND “GOES PUBLIC,” THE WITNESSES ASSUME THAT THE WHISTLEBLOWER, BY HIS/HER ACTIONS, DOES NOT WANT TO BE A WITNESS ANY LONGER BECAUSE THOSE WHO WANT TO REMAIN WITNESSES WILL PROTECT THEIR RELIGION BY KEEPING “SECRETS.”
22. Martha writes about her father’s reaction when he finds out she is no longer a Mormon:
PAGE 146. “Then I realize that my father’s expression looks like one of personal insecurity, not alarm on someone else’s behalf. He looks nervous, a glib preacher who has just realized his audience is deaf. He may be somewhat concerned for my lost soul, but I strongly suspect that he’s much more worried about what a sociologist would call “loss of legitimacy.” If I’m not Mormon, then his work, his fame, his position mean nothing to me. I’ve chosen to ignore both filial and religious piety, so with me, he’s lost his foundation.”
WITNESSES ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH NON-WITNESSES BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT NON-WITNESSES DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR ADMIRE THE WITNESS VIEWPOINT. FOR EXAMPLE, WITNESSES BELIEVE THAT ACCEPTANCE AND APPROVAL BY GOD COMES ONLY FROM “WORKS.” ALSO, WITNESSES ONLY ACCEPT AND SHOW LOVE IF THEY SEE THAT THEIR FELLOW WITNESS CONTINUES TO “PERFORM” FOR THE RELIGION.
23. Pages 250-1. “It would be years before we realized how far the ripples spread from John’s hot-press apostasy. The immediate effects were obvious: mura hachibu. When we walked through our neighborhood, the people who had embraced us at church meetings now turned away, showing us their backs until we were out of sight. On the BYU campus, few people were brave enough to speak with us, much less do lunch. Our close friends were few, and we had no casual collegial relationships. When neighbors came for a visit, it was always an undisguised effort to convince us to repent, followed by stories about other who had left the fold and lived (though not long) to regret it.”
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, WHO WERE EMBRACED BEFORE AN EXCOMMUNICATION ANNOUNCEMENT, WILL BE SCORNED AND SHUNNED WITHIN MINUTES AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT.
24. Page 251. “Even people whom we knew were having their own religious doubts, people who had shared dissident views with us or spoken up in Sunday school lessons about their disagreement with Church policy, seemed to draw the line at connecting with actual apostates. Former buddies awkwardly pretended we weren’t sharing the same sidewalk, using adjacent gas-station pumps, lining up at the same cash register. When we initiated conversations, they would sometimes give a frightened smile and a quick ‘hello,’ then all but run away. Mostly, we were simply ignored. We had become ghosts.”
ALL JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES GRIPE ABOUT THEIR ORGANIZATION—FROM THE LEADERS TO THE LEAST OF THE MEMBERSHIP. HOWEVER, IF A BUDDY IS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR GRIPING TOO LOUD OR FOR SPEAKING NEGATIVELY ABOUT THE GOVERNING BODY, HIS FRIENDS WILL BE AFRAID THAT THEIR NAME MIGHT BE DRAGGED INTO THE INVESTIGATION TOO AND THEY ALSO WOULD BE EXCOMMUNICATED. IT IS NOT UNUSUAL IN SUCH AN EVENT FOR A WITNESS TO TURN ON ANOTHER WITNESS, AND, EVEN LIE, IF NECESSARY, TO PROTECT ONESELF.
25. Page 262. “One of the nifty paradoxes of dysfunction is that the crazier the system in which you grow up, the more afraid and less equipped you are to leave it and stand on your own.”
FORMER JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES FIND IT EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO ORIENT THEMSELVES OUTSIDE OF THEIR GROUP BECAUSE OF THE YEARS OF PROGRAMMING DONE BY THEIR LEADERS TO CONVINCE THEM THAT EVERYONE OUTSIDE OF THE GROUP IS EVIL.
26. Page 267. “Everything that had been said in the meeting reinforced my own suspicion that if the whole Mormon establishment had witnessed what was done to me as a child, they would respond by saying, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is terrible. What do we have to do to make that kid shut up and take it?’”
MANY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES LEADERS WOULD RATHER A CHILD NOT COME FORWARD AND MAKE AN ACCUSATION OF SEXUAL ABUSE AGAINST ANOTHER WITNESS BECAUSE IT WILL BE A BLEMISH ON THEIR ORGANIZATION, AN ORGANIZATION THEY WANT TO PORTRAY AS BETTER THAN ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUP.
27. Page 283. “My father snapped back…, ‘We raised you in the Gospel. You might want to think about how you’re repaying us.’”
“’Oh, believe me, I’ve thought about it,’ I said, desperately wanting to lash out. I stopped. Breathed. Calmed myself. ‘In a way, you’re right,’ I said. ‘I am grateful you raised me to be religious, because at least you turned my attention to God. It’s like you locked me in the deepest dungeon ever made and then threw in the key. Thank you.’”
“I believed then, and still do, that I’d just described the function of religion in general. All faiths form around the same priceless thing: the Stream, the Silence, the Light. Then, human nature being what it is, that holy core begins accreting a shell of mindless corruption. It is, in a word, defiled. And since this power is the most precious thing in human experience, its dark side is the purest form of evil.”
AT ONE TIME, THE FOUNDERS AND LEADERS OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES WERE SINCERE, BUT EVENTUALLY THEY BECAME SO INTERESTED IN PRESERVING THE STATUS QUO BY ANY MEANS THAT THEY BECAME EXPERTS AT LIES OF OMISSION AND HALF-TRUTHS, THEREBY BECOMING DEFILED AND CORRUPT.
 

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What are some of the similarities between Mormonism and the J.W. cult?
by hubert 12 years ago 19 Replies latest 12 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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hubert
hubert 12 years ago

I am doing some research on Mormons, along with the Watchtower Org., and I'm looking for similar beliefs between the two.
I found a few, (I think), like:
Both believe in shunning.
Both use the term "apostate".
Both have "end time " predictions.... Mormons = Generation of 1832.
Does anyone know of any other similarities? Thanks.... Hubert
 
liquidsky
liquidsky 12 years ago

They both use the term "worldly".
 
blondie
blondie 12 years ago

Door to door preaching, studying with people in their literature
Jehovah is one of God's names
Say they don't teach a trinity but believe Jesus is equal to Jehovah
 
Terry
Terry 12 years ago

The Mormon religion at least started with some great Sci-Fi writing! An angel with golden plates written in Egyptian heiroglyphs, special glasses that, when you put them on, automatically translate for you! Wow! Great stuff.
C.T.Russell had his pyramid gizmo; but, it was not at all original to him. He was just suckered in by it and returned the favor to other hapless rubes.
Mormon's have mysterious rituals they get to observe at the temple with secret dramas portrayed to them as hermetic knowledge. They get special underwear too!
JW's have the weird Lord's Supper ritual that only the special anointed can "partake" of. How they know they are anointed is all goofy double talk.
Mormons can be in politics and JW's had to go to prison rather than serve their country.
Mormons minister as missionaries for 2 years; but, JW's have the dork-to-door work a lifetime.
One similarity that comes to mind is this. Mormon's have their own bible substitute: The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. JW's have the NWTranslation. All the aforementioned are mostly works of fiction.
Mormon's have a support structure for the rank and file. JW's have nothing.
Mormon's receive "revelations" from their governing body. So do JW's but it is very mysterious what the process is. New Light comes from somewhere/somehow but it is never explained. Mormon's come right out and call it prophecy. JW's, always proved wrong, call themselves latter day "prophets" but always put the word in quotation marks !
When I was an active Pioneer as a JW the toughest debates I ever had were with Mormons. They were sharp! Indoctrination in the Mormon church is every bit as good as among JWs.
Terry
 
Scully
Scully 12 years ago

When a Prophecy? does not come to pass, it is never the Prophet's? fault, it is the fault of the believers. They either were too sinful, didn't believe enough in the Prophecy?, or believed the Prophecy? too completely; so God punished them by making the Prophecy? fail.
Questioning the belief system is a huge No-No and is considered Apostasy?.
Getting a higher education is frowned upon by the leaders. Too many people end up leaving after getting an education and learning the skill of critical thinking.
Women are second class people. They are not allowed to teach in the congregations. They must be in subjection to their husbands. They must "keep sweet" and not bring reproach on the religion by talking about being sexually abused by male members of the church.
Try reading Under the Banner of Heaven, by J. Krakauer if you want a really good reference to help you juxtapose the Mormons vis-à-vis the JWs.
Love, Scully
 
frenchbabyface
frenchbabyface 12 years ago


Blondie : Jehovah is one of God's names
I didn't know that ...
 
blondie
blondie 12 years ago

It is interesting to compare the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses to the Mormon church because the similarities are quite striking:
◦Both orgainizations had a founder who was unstable in his religious beliefs and was only satisfied with beliefs that he established himself.
◦Both organizations had a founder who claimed that the church had become apostate centuries before and that he had been appointed to "restore" the church to its proper condition.
◦Both founders made their claims of having authority from God without presenting or possessing any credentials to certify their claims. They could not prophesy, they could not heal and they could not raise the dead as could Jesus Christ and His apostles.
◦Both founders taught with materials which they had written and therefore, were outside the Bible.
◦Both groups elevate their teachings and writings as authoritative above the Bible.
◦Both founders pre-defined their doctrine and then used verses in the Bible as "proof texts" in order to support their beliefs.
◦Both organizations claim that the Bible is flawed and mistranslated, and have produced "translations" of their own claiming that they alone, out of the thousands of translators and language experts throughout history, are the correct and official interpreters of the meaning of the texts. Joseph Smith in the Mormon church produced his Inspired Translation of the Bible in 1830, by which he did not consult any original manuscripts, but translated "by inspiration" from the English text. The Jehovah's Witnesses produced their own New World Translation in 1950 which they claim as a translation.
◦Both organizations have a "president" as their head which is not a Biblical position of authority.
◦Both organizations are Theocratic in nature, controlling the individual groups throughout the world from a central location and through a set organization and system of teaching.
◦Both groups claim that they were appointed by God as His official representatives on earth and that they are they only organization approved by God and by which man can receive the truth.
◦Both organizations have changed their doctrines over the years and at the same time deny that they have done so.
◦Both organizations teach that God lives on a planet.
◦Both organizations reject, or change, virtually every doctrine taught in the Bible and at the same time claim the Bible as their authority.
http://www.ondoctrine.com/10jehwit.htm
 
Earnest
Earnest 12 years ago

Blondie,
I found your list interesting and generally accurate bar this one item :
Both organizations teach that God lives on a planet.
Do you have any references for this as I doubt there are any JWs who currently believe this. I am aware that Rutherford allowed ("It has been suggested, with much weight...") that Jehovah's throne may be in the Pleiades star cluster, either on or near the brightest of the stars, Alcyone, because it was thought the constellation was the gravitational centre of the universe (Reconciliation, 1928, p. 14). But I don't think a planet was ever involved or that it was presented as more than an interesting thought.
That interesting thought was put to rest in the Watchtower of 1953 (11/15, p.703) :
Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God?s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. Were we to think of the Pleiades as his throne we might improperly view with special veneration that cluster of stars.?Deut. 4:19; 2 Chron. 2:6; 6:18.
Earnest
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 12 years ago

Both believe in shunning.
Mormons do not practice shunning.
 
jwsons
jwsons 12 years ago

Both have some kinds of relation to Masonic (Mormons have their Headquater) JWs have their founder's tomb and Watchtower cover emblem till 1931
jwsons
 
hubert
hubert 12 years ago

Revmalk-- Mormons DO NOT practice shunning.
Revmalk, I found a site that says (Mormons ostracized for leaving the church.)
I am going to try to bring it up, but don't think I can.
Well, I can't. Sorry, it would be much easier if I could, I know. Here's the title:
L.A. Times cover story, 12/1: Mormons who quit church, ostracized.
Maybe you can find this, and put it in my thread for me if you'd like? Thanks....Hubert.
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 12 years ago

It can say what it wants, but I've been affiliated with the LDS Church off and on for about 15 years.
Some members may feel a need to limit their association (outside of church) with those that leave, but there is no policy of shunning in the LDS religion. Even at that, they'd have to be really bad, but that's just common sense (removing toxic people from your life).
As a matter of fact, very few things can get you DF'd from the Mormon Church, one being Apostasy (but not much else), but there are no sanctions placed on you for associating with a DF'd member, even 'apostates'. It's actually the complete opposite, whereas they seek out those that have left the Church to encourage them to return. (not that that's much fun either)
A DF'd Mormon cannot hold a position in the congregation, and most likely is not considered to eligible for the 3rd level of Heaven, but still would be eligible to be 'saved'. They believe all of God's people are saved, regardless of religion.
Rev
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 12 years ago

Grumpy old white man morality.
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 12 years ago

I found the article hubert. Let me pick it apart now, lol (See highlights):





LA Times Cover Story, 12/1: Mormons who quit church ostracized http://www.skeptictank.org/gen4/gen02324.htm
---
LA Times Cover Story, 12/1: Mormons who quit church ostracized
December 1, 2001
Losing Faith and Lots More
Mormons who quit the church find themselves ostracized by friends, co-workers and even families. Annual gathering offers support, shared experiences.
By WILLIAM LOBDELL, Times Staff Writer
SALT LAKE CITY -- It took 16 months for Suzy Colver and her husband to work up the courage to officially quit the Mormon church, worried about what would befall them once word of their defection spread through their Mormon-dominated town of Ogden, Utah.
They didn't have to wait long. Instantly, Colver said, her family became the neighborhood pariah. She lost every one of her Mormon friends, even though she'd been a leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' prestigious Relief Society. She wasn't asked to volunteer at her kids' elementary school anymore. Her decision was so unspeakable, she said, that when her brother-in-law visited he was afraid to even acknowledge it, despite the coffee maker on the counter and bottle of chardonnay in the refrigerator--both Mormon taboos.
"If Mormons associate with you, they think they will somehow become contaminated and lose their faith too," Colver said. "It's almost as if people who leave the church don't exist." Colver, a 33-year-old mother of three, was among a group of ex-Mormons who gathered here recently to wrestle with problems that plague some who leave the church but remain in Utah and other communities heavily dominated by Mormons: rejection from Mormon spouses, children and relatives; the disappearance of Mormon friends; the end of a social life; a sidetracked career.
How, they asked each other at the inaugural Ex-Mormon General Conference, can you carve out a regular life within the immense shadow of the clannish Mormon church, which claims roughly 70% of Utah residents as members?
"In Utah, the church has created an almost impossible box to climb out of," said Sue Emmett, the 60-year-old great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young. She left the church in 1999.
Tales of ostracism are familiar in other close-knit, conservative religious communities. In some circles of Orthodox Judaism, for example, families will consider a relative who marries outside the faith dead, even observing the Jewish mourning process. Some Latino mothers weep for their sons who turn their back on the Catholic church. And the Amish banish anyone who leaves their faith from their community.
But only in Utah and pockets of neighboring states does a single religion have such a dominant hold over nearly every aspect of society. Which was why Colver, Emmett and about 60 other heretics held their gathering at a symbolic place and time: a block from Salt Lake City's Temple Square, where 21,000 faithful Mormons had flocked to the church's 171st semiannual General Conference. They told stories, often tearfully, of the prejudice they encountered upon leaving.
One recalled volunteering to say grace at a Thanksgiving dinner, only to be stopped by her mother, who said, "You can't. I don't know what you'd say."
Another expressed relief after moving out of state to a non-Mormon neighborhood: "It was so nice to go to the grocery store and know no one's going to look down on you."
A third told of the pain she felt from her grown children, who believe she's been influenced by the devil: "They see me as an enemy, as a heretic and as a threat to their children," she said.
In Mormon country--a strip of states from Montana and Idaho in the north to Arizona in the south--Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints members make up huge majorities in many communities.
The 11-million-member church is one of the fastest growing religious organizations in the world, adding 40% to its membership each decade since 1960, church officials say. The church says it doesn't release the number of Mormons who drop from the rolls.
Church Elder Tad R. Callister said the church recognized its shortcoming when it recently released its "Doctrine of Inclusion," which implores members to better embrace nonmembers--whether people of other religions or former Mormons.
"We're imperfect people . . . [but] we want it to be said that we're the best neighbors in the world," Callister said.
The author of the inclusion doctrine, Elder M. Russell Ballard, acknowledges that he occasionally hears "of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority."
Ballard, a member of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (added: Equivalent to the JW Governing Body), said he's also heard about "narrow-minded parents" who won't let their children play with children who aren't in the church.
"I cannot comprehend why any member of our church would allow these kinds of things to happen," he said.
Most at the conference of ex-Mormons said serious doubts about the faith's authenticity drove them away.
Mormons believe "the one and only true church" of Jesus Christ was restored to the Earth by the prophet Joseph Smith in the 1820s.
A primary source of attack by critics is the Book of Mormon, a sacred text for the church called "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Mormon tradition holds that the angel Moroni--a resurrected ancient American prophet and warrior--led Smith to gold plates buried in a hillside in upstate New York.
Engraved on the plates, Mormons believe, were holy writings by ancient Americans in "reformed Egyptian," a combination of ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphics used by Americans who had first emigrated here from Jerusalem about 600 years before Christ. Viewing the plates through special stones and devices, Smith is said to have deciphered the writings.
"It has no factual basis," said Steve Benson, a Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist with the Arizona Republic and grandson of Mormon prophet Ezra Taft Benson. "Once a crack of truth in the dam emerged, it wasn't long before the whole superstructure broke loose. Soon I was swimming in the intellectual ocean of freedom."
Others, like Colver, say the church's relentless push for volunteer duty drove them away.
Colver, a breast cancer survivor, said the pressure reached a breaking point one Sunday as she lay in bed after another a round of chemotherapy, unable to do much of anything. Even when she needed to vomit, her husband had to sit her up and hold the pan.
She then got three consecutive calls from leaders of her church. They asked her if she was absolutely sure she wanted to give up her post in the Relief Society.
"We just don't want to deprive you of the blessings," they told her.
"There I was, lying in bed--sick, bald, scarred from surgery, and I don't know if I'm going to live or die," Colver recalled. "I told them, 'Go ahead! Deprive away!' "
At turns, the three-day ex-Mormon event resembled a self-help recovery group, an academic seminar, a class reunion and an all-night college party.
The former Mormons, from young adults to seniors, drank coffee and Cokes in the morning and martinis and beer in the evening, and the women wore sleeveless blouses--all against church teaching.
(added: Never heard of that one)
"This is the second year I've had brown shoulders," said Lindy Parsons, a 34-year-old mother of three from Harrisville, Utah, showing off her tan. The first thing she did when she quit the church? "I went down to Victoria's Secret and bought some real underwear."
Humor masked much bitterness. All participants said they'd lost major pieces of their lives after they walked away from the church.
Parsons says her Mormon neighbors--nearly her entire community--shunned her (added: While some Mormons may be fanatical, it is not Church teaching to shun - Note the highlighted comments above). When her husband had a grand mal seizure, she said, a church official passing by warned a neighbor, "Don't enter that house. The man is possessed by the devil."
Then she stumbled upon the www.exmormon.org Web site, an online gathering spot for former Mormons created in 1995 to fill the social vacuum left after exiting the church. "It's a halfway house for many of us," said cartoonist Benson of the site that now gets 3,000 hits per day and has more than 600 e-mail subscribers.
The Exmormon.org group started holding annual get-togethers a few years ago in Las Vegas--"because it was the anti-Salt Lake City," one organizer said--but decided to get serious this year with a formal conference in the Utah capital.
Because of family ties, jobs, familiarity or just plain stubbornness, many of the former Mormons have decided to stay in hostile territory and try to make friends--or at least live a peaceful life in a parallel universe alongside the church.
"I want to be me and still be respected," said Maxine Hanks, who was excommunicated from the church in 1993 after publishing her book, "Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism." "I'm tired of being seen as an outsider."
Hanks said the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City next year has spurred Mormon officials to rethink their outreach to other faiths, which included the Doctrine of Inclusion.
Critics acknowledge that Mormon leaders have been doing a better job in recent years of promoting inclusiveness. But nearly all of the ex-Mormons at the conference said they'd seen no evidence of it. They said their former ties to the church have put them, in the eyes of Mormons, in a different category than people of other faiths or even atheists. They suspect hurt feelings and a fear of associating with apostates contributed to the shunning.
Santa Clarita resident Gaylon Harrison, 42, said that when she left the church four years ago, her congregation scratched her name from the directory, listing only her husband and three children. She said her Mormon friends passed her in the supermarket without a word.
"They would literally turn their heads," said Harrison, who has since moved to Maryland with her family. "I was ready to say 'Hi.' All they had to do is look."
Harrison said she also had problems within her marriage. She eventually told her Mormon husband that she would no longer share a bed with him unless he stopped wearing his sacred Mormon undergarments, worn day and night by the devout. She wanted a respite from symbolism.
"That church was right there in the bed with us," she complained. He stopped wearing the underwear, and she quit wearing her "Have You Hugged an Apostate Today?" T-shirt.
Though public rhetoric has softened in recent years, Mormons believe that stepping away from the church will have eternal consequences. Ex-Mormons are also excluded from major earthly events such as temple baptisms and weddings, where only members in good standing can set foot.
"My sister couldn't attend some events [at the temple], and it hurts," said Joni Bown, a Salt Lake City Mormon whose sister quit the church. "Yes, I pray for her to come back to something that's so special to us."
Rob Shiveley, 42, thought becoming an ex-Mormon would hurt his career in Utah's computer software industry.
"The conversations on campus and at lunch at my company were all about the Mormon church," said Shiveley, who left the church after landing a new job in Portland, Ore. "The handful of non-Mormons were very much on the outside in the company."
Because business is often conducted informally around church social activity, much the way other cultures conduct it on the golf course, many nonbelieving Mormons haven't come out to their family, friends or co-workers.
Those who keep quiet "don't risk alienation if there isn't an explicit rejection of the religion," said Tim B. Heaton, sociology professor at Brigham Young University.
Many of the apostates still enjoy parts of the Mormon culture, especially the emphasis on family and moral values. "I want to be a Mormon like Woody Allen is a Jew," said one conference participant. "I don't want to be robbed of my Mormonism."
But the all-or-nothing nature of the church leaves many struggling for a new identity.
Because of the strict Mormon lifestyle, many ex-Mormons often experience a kind of delayed adolescence once they leave the church, experimenting with alcohol, drugs and sex.
Christene Carol, 43 and mother of five, said she attempted suicide in 1999 after living "an insanely perfect life" as a Mormon.
She said she has spent the past two years learning to live responsibly without the guidance of the church, though it's been a difficult road at times. She said she overdosed on Ecstasy one night.
"I don't expect the people in the church to understand, and I don't blame anyone," said Carol, a resident of Bountiful, Utah. "I've learned to live an independent life rather than a life of needing or seeking the approval of others."
Maxine Hanks says she and others put up with the "scathing but subtle disapproval" from Mormons in Utah and elsewhere because it's important to "learn how to stay."
"I make a difference here," she says. "I have a social responsibility to stay in the conversation. And we need to create diversity. Without people like us, there is no diversity."
In a nutshell, it may be that many ex-mormons find themselves not as comfortable with their friends and family as they did prior to leaving the church, and in some cases may find themselves 'shunned'. But it is in no way Church policy or Doctrine, and in no way compares (In most cases) to the shunning ex-JWs endure. You still have your family (as shown in the quotes above) - although it might suck having to hear their crap, but at least you hear them.
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 12 years ago

double post.
 
hubert
hubert 12 years ago

Thanks, Revmalk, for clarifying that for me, and thanks for bringing up the site. Yes, I can see now that it isn't Mormon church policy to shun, just some people's choice that want to.
WOW !! Why don't they write big articles like this about the Jehovah Witness cult in my hometown papers. All we get is 2 by 2 inch articles on them, buried in the obituaries.
Thanks, everyone, for your input, and especially Revmalk, and also Blondie for that long list. .... Hubert
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 12 years ago

Why don't they write big articles like this about the Jehovah Witness cult in my hometown papers
baffles the mind, eh?
 
willyloman
willyloman 12 years ago

Why don't they write big articles like this about the Jehovah Witness cult in my hometown papers.
One reason is that, despite what JW leaders claim, the Witnesses are not on most people's radar. They are a very tiny group that, again, despite what they say, is not experiencing substantial growth these days. The Mormons, on the other hand, are growing like weeds and are projected to number 300 million by the end of this century, according to a respected sociologist's study.
This is particularly worrisome to the rest of society because the Mormons have, in the past, had their own standing army, threatened to take up arms against the U.S. Government, and were able to establish their own theocratic state which they ruled for many years without much interference from the outside world. They are politically active and savvy and vote in lockstep, whereas JWs are still arguing about whether their members can even vote in a school bond election.
I second the recommendation made above of Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer, now in paperback and widely available; you will be astonished at the similarities in Mormon/JW beliefs and in the way their respective religions were organized by their founders.
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 12 years ago

Ya, I think you hit that nail right on the head. Most people don't realize the political power the LDS Church actually has. You're talking about a religion that controls an entire state!
 
hooberus
hooberus 12 years ago

Mormon - God lives near the star kolob (Pearl of Great Price: Book of Abraham)
JW - God lives on star Alcyone in Pleadies star cluster (taught many times until 1953).
Mormon - Statements about pyramid: Gods Witness; number of inches etc. (early convention report)
JW - statements about pyramid: Gods Witness ; number of inches etc. (taught many times until 1928)
Mormon- God not omnipresent (current teaching)
JW -God not omnipresent (1981 WT)
Mormon - God has a body (flesh and bones D&C 130:22)
JW - God has a body (spirit body 1981 WT)
 

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Mama Jackson Cashes in Ice Cream Money
by OrphanCrow 3 days ago 8 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 3 days ago

Michael Jackson's estate sells stake in Sony/ATV music catalogue for $750M

http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/sony-michael-jackson-music-catalog-1.3491828

Michael Jackson's estate has agreed to sell its remaining stake in a lucrative music catalogue to Sony Corp. for $750 million US, the entities announced Monday.
The agreement for Jackson's half-share of the Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalogue will give the company sole ownership of works by The Beatles, Bob Dylan and other hit making musicians, including Eminem and Taylor Swift.
The deal is another posthumous blockbuster deal for Jackson, whose estate has erased the singer's massive debts through a mixture of new music and movie ventures and re-releases of the singer's most popular music.
Jackson's estate benefits his mother and three children, known as Prince, Paris and Blanket.
Read full article at link
I notice that Mama Jackson, an active Jehovah's Witness, receives part of the benefit of this estate sale. I was curious as to how much she would get so I looked up what her share of the estate was. She gets 40 percent of Michael's estate.
Jackson's 23-page document shows that the singer left 40 per cent of his $300million estate to his children, 40 per cent to his mother Katherine and 20 per cent to charity.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1282637/Michael-Jacksons-children-receive-33m-singers-will.html#ixzz431XLNDp5
A 40 percent share of 750 million dollars is 300 million. Woot toot!
I wonder if Mama Jackson is going to put her ice cream money into the Watchtower coffers and donate at the very least, 10 percent of her treat money to them. Which would be a 30 million dollar windfall for Mama's favorite charity. Win win - a tax write off.
(Simon, we could really do with a money emoticon...dollar signs *insert here*...lots of them)


 +5 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 3 days ago
Heck, if kids are supposed to give up their ice cream money, she should give it all. The "end" is imminent and all she needs in sustenance and covering.
 +2 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 3 days ago

 
Is this what you had in mind, OrphanCrow?
 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 3 days ago



Grandma, we're in for some REAL ICE CREAM now!
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 3 days ago

Thanks Sparky.
Those are...ummm...a little LARGE, but they will do. And wow...they dance.
:smile:
And o geez...I wonder if Grandma is gonna pressure the young uns to give their ice cream money to the paradise and panda factory too? Just like Sophie.
 +1 / -0
cappytan
cappytan 2 days ago
OrphanCrpw: 💰💰💵💵 Emoji should work on most platforms. You don't see these: 💰💰💰💵💵💵 ?
 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 2 days ago

cappy: OrphanCrpw: 💰💰💵💵 Emoji should work on most platforms. You don't see these: 💰💰💰💵💵💵 ?
Nope...no idea what you mean. I am clueless.
 
juandefiero
juandefiero 2 days ago

OrphanCrow: This is what it looks like on my end...Must be a mac thing.



 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 2 days ago

Oh...I can see them. I just have no clue how you put them there. I don't have a mac.
Maybe only mac owners have money bags.
 

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The Truth is not an ORG.....It's inside of you
by tor1500 2 days ago 19 Replies latest 3 hours ago   jw friends
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tor1500
tor1500 2 days ago

Hi All,
The Truth, the org is the Truth...ummm...let's think about that...I was thinking that the bible is the truth & what it does is that it reveals THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU...the more you read the bible the more you may see yourself & your actions. You may be a person who judges people, the bible will show you what's wrong with that...viola, another truth revealed about you. You may be a prideful person, you read a story in the bible about that...again, it's another truth revealed about YOU. Many of us think we are OK, but when we read the bible, sometimes we see ourselves (mirror) & it's not easy to admit we may need to change. The bible makes us accountable for our actions, sometimes we are so busy pointing fingers at others when it's something we should change about ourselves.
We are all guilty of judging, gossiping, having sex out/inside marriage, drinking, drugging & countless other things. So when one reads the bible & is ready for correction....that's where the truth comes in...The Bible reveals our true selves...Again, the truth is not outside of us, it's inside of us to be revealed....then truly the Truth can set you free from all your messed up ways...
Again, that's just my 2 cents.
Tor
 +2 / -5
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity 2 days ago

Not just God is within us, but all the angels, all the demons, all the flawed characters in the greatest story ever told are within us. The Bible is a book of genocide, because there is a corruption within everybody that must be exterminated. It is a book of superstition, because the notion that it is a magic book is beyond blasphemy, it's the emperor's lack of clothes.
 +2 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 2 days ago

Hi tor1500 do you really think the Bible shows us how to cope with everyday life? People being killed for not being obedient, naughty children eaten by bears, people having sex with members of their own family, being killed for not giving the whole amount of a contribution to the congregation.
Where is the application to real life here? Only if you rewrite each story to make a modern day application like they do in the Watchtower can you make any sense of these ridiculous stories. If you're going to do that why bother, why not use your common sense to work out how best to live your life. If you're inexperienced about life and feel lost, read books, talk to other people, read biographies about other's lives, speak to a therapist.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

We are all guilty of ... having sex ..inside marriage
Eh?
 
the girl next door
the girl next door 2 days ago
Rubbish
 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

Truth isn't a thing. It is a correspondence between reality and a description of that reality.
The logical test of accuracy in describing reality is the absence of internal contradiction. You see this in cross-examination of a witness by an adversarial attorney probing for discrepancy and changes in previous testimony.
Jehovah's Witnesses as "witnesses" have had numerous changes in their testimony which they never admit to being anything less than the Truth. For a JW, Truth is not unlike today's weather.
They've been forecasting with 100% inaccuracy for over 100 years.
If confronted by the unreliability of their predictions, they act offended and point to their source authority: scriptures and Jehovah's spirit. What they never seem to question is their definitive presentation and its having been based on mere opinion.
"God's dates and not ours" is hardly a call for prudent skepticism.
 +4 / -0
tor1500
tor1500 2 days ago

Hi All,
I got where you are coming from....I'm talking about our human hang nails that we have. The simple niceties in life that we extend to one another...The Jews....when things were going their way they were alright. Let's be honest the Jews were in Egypt for ages and were taken from there, but like most folks, you can take them out of environment but you can't take the environment out of them. Sometimes folks just don't change. They would tell God, ok I'm going to be good & obey, then turn around & disobey him...Just like us today....we listen to our parents, then disobey them....I know what you're going to say, but our parents didn't kill us (yet, some do). We have to remember they were kind of barbaric back then. Again, I get where you are coming from.
If common sense was so common everyone would have it...I have read the bible & sometimes see myself in some of these stories...Like when Peter said, he would never deny Christ & he did....the moral of this story...never say never. What about the good Samaritan, couldn't we all identify with that story...would you help anyone that doesn't look like you, worship like you, etc. What about the guy whose loan was forgiven, yet he didn't forgive someone that owed him money. David & Saul: Saul was the man, but folks kept making a big deal about David & Saul became jealous, who here has not felt jealousy of someone ?
The man that wouldn't give up his riches & Christ said a man giving up his riches is just as impossible as a camel going thru an eye of a needle...& isn't that the truth, how many would give up their riches ? Some do, but most won't. What about power doesn't power go to our heads at times...look at the celebrities...before they got rich, they were humble, then they get pumped up to larger then life, & they feel they can do whatever... Look at the police, don't they think they are above the law & do what they want. I could go on & on...What you can take out of the bible if you wish, is..MORALS...ah, this one just came to me...what about, do to others as you would have them do to you....meaning, BE NICE, because you'd want someone to be nice to you...That to me is the meat and potatoes of the bible...Don't do to others what you don't want done to you....Most of the bible are just stories...true or false, who knows & who cares...but it's how we treat one another that really counts.
Most of us want to go through life with no problems, but it don't happen that way, many say it's not fair, but life never promised you fair.
I don't get the point of all these stories in the bible & I too wonder, why does God allow suffering, especially when we read, he can heal anything....how long does this have to go on until he jumps in....& the org., is wondering too, why else would they constantly write about it in all their literature. They want to know as well, but they are phrasing it differently so they think they have the answer. They claim Jesus became King in 1914, don't think they are not asking...Hey Jesus, what you been doing since then?
No one can trust religion run by man or interpreted by man...I think at the end of the day...BE GOOD...
Application to real life...again...BE GOOD & KIND. CARE ABOUT YOUR FELLOW MAN, HELP WHEN & WHERE YOU CAN. TRY TO BE AS POSITIVE AS YOU CAN...
Tor
 
notsurewheretogo
notsurewheretogo 2 days ago

How can the bible help if anyone if it is not true and full of piss made up by people who had little knowledge about the world they lived in?
Ignore it...live the life you want to live...enjoy it, don't hurt others and be free.
 
juandefiero
juandefiero 2 days ago

What about....?
We are all guilty of judging, gossiping, having sex out/inside marriage, drinking, drugging & countless other things. So when one reads the Book of Mormon & is ready for correction....that's where the truth comes in...The Book of Mormon reveals our true selves...Again, the truth is not outside of us, it's inside of us to be revealed....then truly the Truth can set you free from all your messed up ways...
....or...
We are all guilty of judging, gossiping, having sex out/inside marriage, drinking, drugging & countless other things. So when one reads Dyanetics & is ready for correction....that's where the truth comes in... Dyanetics reveals our true selves...Again, the truth is not outside of us, it's inside of us to be revealed....then truly the Truth can set you free from all your Thetans...
....or...


We are all guilty of judging, gossiping, having sex out/inside marriage, drinking, drugging & countless other things. So when one reads the Koran & is ready for correction....that's where the truth comes in...The Koran reveals our true selves...Again, the truth is not outside of us, it's inside of us to be revealed....then truly the Prophet can set you free from all your messed up ways...allahu akbar.
...or...
We are all guilty of judging, gossiping, having sex out/inside marriage, drinking, drugging & countless other things. So when one reads the Pali Canon & is ready for correction....that's where enlightenment comes in...The Pali Canon reveals our true selves...Again, enlightenment is not outside of us, it's inside of us to be revealed....then being truly enlightened can set you free from all your messed up ways...,
...or...
We are all guilty of judging, gossiping, having sex out/inside marriage, drinking, drugging & countless other things. So when one reads the Tao-te Ching & is ready for correction....that's where harmony comes in...The Tao-te Ching reveals our true selves...Again, harmony is not outside of us, it's inside of us to be revealed....then being truly harmonious can set you free from all your messed up ways...,
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

tor - the Bible contains nothing of value except a few bits of folk wisdom.
The world only makes sense in the absence of a deity.
Why would you expect to find value in a book written by Iron Age goat herders who had the morals of an ISIS warlord?
We live in the best time in all of human history. Never has there been more respect for rights and freedoms. The parts of the world who are going against this trend are those who value ancient books and gods.
 +2 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 2 days ago

what about, do to others as you would have them do to you....meaning, BE NICE, because you'd want someone to be nice to you...That to me is the meat and potatoes of the bible...Don't do to others what you don't want done to you....Most of the bible are just stories...true or false, who knows & who cares...but it's how we treat one another that really counts.
Tor, please google the Golden Rule, which is what you're talking about above. Confucius, Plato, Buddha and others were talking about this principle five hundred years before Jesus. None of them claimed to be the son of God.
It was an amazing breakthrough for humanity, this cannot be denied. Tribalism meant that people looked after their own family and tribe, for the sake of survival. The idea of treating slaves, foreigners, enemy nations with justice was a ground breaking idea, no argument there. The point is Jesus did not say it first, he was 500 years late. Don't take my word for it, check it.
 +2 / -0
fukitol
fukitol a day ago

Yes, it is indeed 'inside' you, but that's got nothing to do with the Bible. Quite the contrary.
The Bible often perverts what one's natural conscience and heart tells them is right versus wrong. Example, we naturally feel love for our relatives and want to talk to them, but the Watchtower says the Bible forbids talking to them if they leave the organisation. Example, a parent would never, ever, naturally make a decision that could result in the death of their child, yet the Watchtower preaches that the Bible says God requires that the parents must forbid a life-saving blood transfusion for their child. And there are many other examples of how the Bible actually corrupts and perverts one's natural moral sense of right and wrong.

People know what is right from wrong without a so-called 'holy' ancient book to tell them. Look at the Muslim militants totally ignoring their natural sense of moral right from wrong and beheading people and blowing themselves to kill others, all in the name of religion and their 'holy' book?

Even the Apostle Paul admitted in Romans 2 that people of the nations naturally distinguish right from wrong from the law that is written in the heart and conscience.
In order to understand this, you need to understand what the Bible really is: mostly a book of interesting Jewish historical records overlaid with fables and priestcraft.
Every single 'miracle' in the Bible is complete fiction, a mere fable. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you will be free.

 
Half banana
Half banana a day ago

Hi Tor, thank you for expressing your thoughts on the Bible and its value as a mirror for our behaviour.
As JWs we felt disloyal to stray from this viewpoint but now as free moral agents we can look back and begin to see many absurdities in the Bible.
One particularly harmful instruction is; "You must be perfect". Listening to advice like this as if from God, could send a person eventually into a mental institution.
We now have universal education and internet information. These enable people to be informed and apply a logical analysis instead of the extremely limited thinking encouraged by Bible indoctrination.
 
tor1500
tor1500 a day ago

Hi Fukitol,
I agree to some extent "one's natural conscience and heart tells them is right versus wrong"...let me give you a little example of one's natural conscience which can be molded by one environment. I once was walking down the street & heard this Father tell his son...Son, now that's how you shoot a gun, the son was no older than 6 or 7 yrs. old. The son said, thanks dad. Then the father says, next I'll show you how to use a glock gun, son says, cool dad & so if someone gets me angry I can shoot them, dad says, that's right son, dad what about Sean, he gets me mad sometimes, I can shoot him. Dad say, No son, that's your brother. Now imagine growing up like that from a youth? That son's natural conscience is being trained not for good but for bad, & he may never know the difference because how he was raised.
I get where you are coming from, but not everyone comes from a loving, nurturing household...how do you show those qualities ? Many of you have been in the hall. Love is not natural for most witnesses. Some parents just raise their kids, no love no nurturing, because maybe they didn't have it either, so that trait passes on. So some go to church/hall or wherever & see some type of love & learn some type of love from the bible. The problem is not the bible, the problem is people who interpret the bible....Many on here say the WT says this the WT says that..but what did the bible say ?
I think many came to the org, looking for the loving parent they never had, & halls/churches provide some of that love. It starts from home. Why do we listen to man ? The bible says nothing about shunning, quitting your job to full time ministry, or rely on the congregation to support you, not to smoke not to drink, walk this way, talk this way, no short skirts & on & on...that's man interpretation of what they want, not what God wants. The OT, lots of killing & stuff, just so Jesus could make it thru the line of David. Now the NT, it's a love story....Jesus didn't do nothing, never gave a whole lot of rules, but his Dad/God did.
I get what everyone is saying, the bible could or could not be true, but it's man that messes up the message. Even it there isn't any God/Jesus, The Bible, wouldn't you like looking back on your life & you were a good person...
I became a witness because I liked what I was learning, even though I knew how to treat folks before I got there...I had good parents. I didn't have to join the org. to be patted on my back or look approval from man. To be honest the truth led me to the truth...& found out what man says, God never even thought it...We as humans can't be nice to one another so it's easier to set rules.
Example, many of the friends says that they can't even get a ride to and from places. But guess what ? Those same folks who don't give rides to people, will come to the hall, & put their slip in for AUX. Pioneering, HUH? So adding more hours to yourself is easier than giving someone a lift....No, it's not but that's how mean spirited some are.
For most witnesses they need to be witnesses it's the only power or recognition they have & they have gone too far. Most of them needs validation that they didn't get from home. They need to be seen, haven't figured out what gene that is LOL.
So I get what all of you are saying...Don't be mad at God....if you still believe but be angry with the org, & maybe a little at yourself, but forgive yourself for just not knowing. We know it's not right to shun or for families to be at odds with one another....No org., has the right....I read somewhere...folks can't drive you crazy if you don't give them the keys.
Some have to admit they loved being a witness and wore it as a badge of honor. In this life your family and friends are your support system. If a family member only wants to be with you because you are a witness but won't if you don't....What's that telling you ? I know it's hard when it comes to family to be shunned or ignored...but I think some folks would be that way even if they were even if they weren't in the org. The org. just gave them an excuse to be that way. Just like some never wanted to work, so, when they heard full time pioneer & God will help & so will your bros.& sis....that was music to their ears...they never wanted to work in the first place...We can't blame the org. for certain things nor can we blame the bible for some natural bad ways.
Again, I get what all of you are saying & I agree with some & not with others...I'm not against anyone here. I don't drink the kool-aide..because I know better.
So my original topic....You can't find truth no where but in yourself....Even if it hurts & you need to change.
Tor
 
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity a day ago
Juandelfiero that's why the mystics all see all religions as one, while findamentalists see their religion as the only true one,
 
Xanthippe
Xanthippe a day ago

I get what everyone is saying, the bible could or could not be true, but it's man that messes up the message. Even it there isn't any God/Jesus, The Bible, wouldn't you like looking back on your life & you were a good person...
I get what you're saying too Tor, I really do. Living ethically and treating others well is very important to me. I just don't want to look back at my life and see I lived by someone else's rules. Whether dreamt up by a religion, or anyone else. It is possible to decide how to be a good person you know. You ignored my post that showed humans have been trying to work out how to be a good person since 500 BC. That's up to you.
 
tor1500
tor1500 a day ago

Hi Xanthippe,
I agree with you 100%...I did look up what you said..sorry for not getting back to you about that...My apologies...You are right...As they say nothing is new under the sun....I think by nature we are kind of self-centered....I'm an only child, I had to learn to share & learn that there are other people in the world besides me...because at home....I was the center of the world...Many of our behavior is from our environment or how we are raised. For example, you don't have to teach a child to lie, but how not to lie. If they see their parents or whomever act a certain way, not all but most of the time, the child(s) mimic's that....I've met many users in my life, the longer I know them the longer I notice so where their parents. Once I met a sister that told me she didn't want to be like her MOM, folks always took advantage of her. So this sister has a bit of an edge to her, it's a protection. Many people put up walls of protection from others. So they don't know how to be treated nor how to treat others with or without kindness.
If you were not treated well at home or were surrounded by nice people, you don't have any experience with knowing how to love or be nice or treat others well. Yes, you can decide to be a nice person, but first you must recognize that you are not & would like to be. Many go to church to learn....I still believe churches/halls or any place of worship is a rehab for the mean folks...because I tell you I've met the most meanest folks in places of worship, so I get what you mean about religion...Someone on this site once said, some Christians are more religious than spiritual.
Ever run across folks that say, they don't like people all that much...My reply is....So what are you? Don't you know I hear crickets...
I understand what you mean by living by someone else's rules & that's why I come to this site, to make sure I'm still sane....I like the friends a lot....but I know I don't fit in, so we shall see.
All in all I think or should I say hope we are on the same page. I'm not a debater, I like to look at all sides & I will keep what you say in mind....That Kindness is not a new thing....& religion didn't event it...
You know why sometimes I have my doubts about the Bible...it's when they say so & so wrote this book & then at the end of the book, the character dies but the story goes on...how can one write about their death...I think the folks they say wrote different books in bible...I don't believe they know. Someone also said, how come Jesus never wrote...I say...UMMMMM..
I will do a little more research on folks trying to work out to be a good person since 550 BC...Food for thought.
Thanks for replying....
Tor
 +1 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe a day ago

Thanks for replying Tor. I'm not a debater either. I see you reaching out for reality and I want to help, that's all. I agree we are mainly on the same page. A year after I left the religion I did an IT course at a college and I remember the tutor listening to my story and she said she thought I needed more education. I was a little insulted. It's not an easy thing to hear is it? Now I think she saw that I was intelligent but because of that religion forbidding education she just thought I didn't know enough. She was right. I hope you get somewhere with your research. This link might help.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

 
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue 17 hours ago
"What is truth?" - Pontius Pilate
 
tor1500
tor1500 3 hours ago

Hi Xanthippe,
I read your link...amazing...My mother said, there is truly nothing new under the sun & she is correct. It was a very very interesting link...thanks...I don't mind when someone tells me that I need to do more research. I'm not too easily offended. We learn something new everyday until the day we die. We must admit we don't know all & that everything in life isn't explained....
I no longer look for reality, I'm close to 65 so I've been around the block & religion is just what it is...In the south churches is a social setting for socializing & worshipping. When you live in the south, if you're not going to a church or to a church function then you really haven't much to do. By the way I don't live in the south. Religion or should I say the folks in religion try to dictate what you should do.
What I'm thinking that if church/JW's are so bad, just think how bad they would be if they didn't go...Yikes.
The Truth is inside of me....I know that...What my original topic was that the truth is not in the org, church, etc but inside of you to find...I didn't mean that religion was where you can find it....for some it exposes who they really are. There are some good examples in the NT of how humans should treat one another or how our attitudes are..I always love the account where A man is forgiven for his debts, yet he doesn't forgive someone who owes him...I think we can all identify with that story...Haven't at one time or another been forgiven, but won't forgive someone in return? Haven't we all seen someone sick or hurt and know we should help (Good Samaritan)....It's about morals...I know the bible is not the only place to go.
I'm glad you sent me the link, more for me to know & they don't....
Because of my age, I'm finally comfortable with myself, I'm not here anymore to please man or care what they think. I think that's why in my congregation, they don't really bother me. I'm my own person, but this web site keeps me sane until I have the courage to leave...
Tor
 

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Unbelievable! Is this even allowed? Two elders from my hall RANDOMLY stopped by my apartment!
by macys 2 days ago 26 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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macys
macys 2 days ago

Ok wow. I am really REALLY pissed. I had to really hold back and bite my tongue. Today I am off from school sitting at home relaxing and watching movies on Netflix when suddenly the intercom rings. I answer it and an elder from my hall answers back "oh hi S we were just in the area and want to stop by to see how you are doing." I was like WTF? They have got to be kidding! So I just answer and tell them I am sick with the flu and can not come down to open up. Totally untrue but its "theocratic warfare." So they just say "hope you feel better see you tomorrow night" and leave. Uh what part of "I am sick don't you understand??" Do they think I will be better from the flu in one day? ARRRG! Makes me so mad!

Ok this is like totally unf**kingreal. I did not invite them over or ever say anything about them EVER making a random visit to my f***king apartment. I do not even know if they should be coming over since I am in the process of being reinstated! Now unless they were here to tell me I am reinstated then WTF is going on? I wrote my BF and he was pissed beyond hell. He thinks they were here to see if he was there or what I am doing on my day off. So now I am looking out the window to see if they are watching me. I know call me paranoid but I know others have had this happen. What should I do? Just ignore it?
Still these guys have no respect for privacy. I was just there on Sunday at the meeting 3 days ago. WTF do they want from me now? Just leave me the f**k alone!

 +13 / -0
redvip2000
redvip2000 2 days ago
not all that uncommon actually, although agree that it's annoying.

 +4 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 2 days ago

I think it is there form of getting their #'s up. They ran everybody off and now they are trying to get them back in. They can't recruit new ones so they are getting desperate.
Crazy bunch!
Hope ya feel better. wink wink
Keep up the "theocratic warfare." I use it too. lol
 +12 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 days ago


I wrote my BF and he was pissed beyond hell.
He thinks they were here to see if he was there or what I am doing on my day off.
......................Image result for bingo logo
 +13 / -0
macys
macys 2 days ago

Really? But I am not reinstated yet. Are they allowed to make random stops by DF'd people? It really made me feel uncomfortable. That is low.

Hihi I leaned theocratic warfare from the best! Geofry Jackson!
 +9 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

Dropping in unannounced and claiming "they were just passing by" is one of JWs favourite weapons.
Catch you in an unguarded moment, have you at a disadvantage etc. I view these drop in visits as a kind of spiritual litmus test designed to gauge how hospitable and receptive you will be to them, so they can measure that all important spiritual "health." I hate them too, so intrusive and rude. Like the secret police turning up at the door.
Though, if you are trying to be reinstated it's not completely unexpected, that they would call in.
 +8 / -0
naazira
naazira 2 days ago
Yes because it's memorial season.
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

Well done in thinking on the spot macy! Even JWs with their "faith" in the new system and the resurrection don't want to catch the flu!
It's a tough one isn't it - because if you assert your right to privacy in the usual way, they will jump upon it, concluding you must be doing something wrong and, at best, you'll be 'marked' and at worst, subject you to more sly invasions of your privacy.
I can't quite remember what your current situation is, but if you are wanting to keep things sweet for the sake of still-in family and friends, you've got quite a road in front of you.
 +3 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 days ago

I'm not sure why you keep acting surprised that this is "allowed." As far as I can tell the only time the elders are directed not to harass someone is if there's some legal aspect to it and they're trying to avoid liability or if someone's claimed that they'll commit suicide if the elders keep calling (which, I guess, really goes back to the legal liability thing). Since you're trying to get reinstated they're very likely to keep dropping by to see if they can get any dirt on you - they'll want to make sure that you're not still doing whatever you got DFed for, and they're not super likely to just take your word for it. Also, the memorial is coming up and lately it seems like the elders are being asked to call on DFed and inactive ones in preparation for the memorial/conventions/CO.
The unannounced call by 2 elders is the rule, not the exception. In most cases asking them to call before coming does not yield any results.
 +9 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 2 days ago
If you are trying to be reinstated then you have a duty to impress them, so don't let that anger show. Apparently it is part of proving your repentance.
 +9 / -1
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 2 days ago

I'm really surprised no one has stopped by my house yet. I'm guessing they will this weekend.
I've had an elder hound me for the past month or two. Random phone calls and text messages. I don't answer the calls or reply to his texts. Normally I wouldn't really care much, but he's done it at odd hours. Like one time he texted me at 12:30AM
 +4 / -0
oppostate
oppostate 2 days ago

When I was serving as an elder, before ever making a call on any JW by two elders, it would be discussed by the elder body, then two brothers assigned and these two brothers would call, both on the phone line, not just one, but both on the phone line at the same time, to arrange for a scheduled time, especially so if it was a DF'ed person, and even more emphatically so if it was a female.
That they showed up un-annouced, is very suspicious. Not to make you paranoid or anything, but since you just saw them at the Hall three days ago this stinks of an "investigatory visit".
You did well not to see them in. If you invite them you are giving in to their tactics. Next time just tell them you're in the middle of getting dressed since you just came out of the shower and have an important appointment at school you must go to. (Their fantasies will run wild).
If it happens again tell them they just caught you coming out of the shower again, and follow this up with the question "Do you guys plan this? 'Cause you always seem to know when I'm naked and getting out of the shower. If I didn't know better I'd feel like I was being stalked!"
Then at the very next meeting ask another elder if you can ask something in private with him and another brother and say that you would appreciate if they're going to call on you that they make plans ahead of time because twice now they've shown up at your door when you've just come out of the shower.
It will get back to the whole body of elders, you better believe it, and if they do try to visit again without an appointment, then sure enough this third time is highly suspicious, no really, the second time may have been a coincidence but now you're getting awful worried and will be calling the CO.
 
 +7 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

If you don't want them to call, I suggest using the words "I don't want you to call" rather than a lame excuse that only puts them off and isn't clear.
From their point of view, they are possibly trying to help and encourage you.
Is it possible that if they didn't call to try and encourage you that you might now be accusing them of ignoring or abandoning you?
Sometimes we can be critical for the sake of it and look too hard for offense when it's not clear that anyone is really out to get us.
In terms of "is this allowed" - pretty much anyone is allowed to call at your door. I think you'd have a hard time claiming they shouldn't when you attend the same church unless and until you tell them that you don't want them to call.
 +5 / -2
Dissonant15
Dissonant15 2 days ago

I am preparing myself for an unannounced visit. I too am going to be "sick" ... with "IBS vomiting/incontinent diarrhea," and "not accepting calls or visits until further notice" due to the "private nature of my illnesses that trend to be exacerbated by social situations."
Unless my husband's home on which case he'll just tell them to fuck off.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

Why don't you just come and say we don't want to participate with your (the JWS) religion anymore ?
Take the garbage out once and for all and leave it there, for Christ's sake they're just stupid corrupt men on a power trip.

 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 2 days ago
"Allowed"? Why do you ask whether it is "allowed"? Does one have to be "allowed" to visit you? I don't understand this one. At the same time that you state you are in the process of being reinstated, you shout loudly because you are being visited? Why do you want to be reinstated, if it is such a bad thing to be visited?
 +6 / -1
closed
closed 2 days ago

Simon is 100% right. The blokes can be genuine. My last cong no elder, or rather but one or two of 13, wouldn't bother at all. In the new one they just friendly bunch and it happen they just pop in while on ministry.
If you don't want them to call then be honest. Don't lie, no warfare crape pls. Whatever others do keep your standards.
Or I would.

 +1 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander a day ago

Why are you being reinstated? If you're going back to meetings, and looking to be reinstated, then as far as I'm concerned you're asking for it. That's what these creepy Elders live for- stopping in and "encouraging" hot young sisters such as yourself. They totally get off on that.
I thought you were DONE with this freakin' cult? Out on your own, living the good life? You can't keep ties with a cult, and not expect it to bite you in the ass once in a while.

 +5 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister a day ago

If you want to be reinstated you've got to expect this, whether its a genuine shepherding call or a " checking up on you" call - I don't understand why you are so shocked. Either way you are gonna have to bite the bullet and see them at some point if you want the reinstatement kiddo!
 +1 / -0
Sanchy
Sanchy a day ago

It is protocol that elders should visit disfellowshipped and inactive ones during memorial season to invite them every year. Sometimes they'll try contacting you beforehand; however, if they think you'll give them a "I can't now" when they ask if they can stop by, they might try being sneaky and drop by unannounced,
Bottom line: You must remember their indoctrination. They think you will die in Armageddon, and thus are justified in any action to try to rescue you from it. It is their duty as elders to do so, or at least that's what they believe.

 +2 / -0

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Unbelievable! Is this even allowed? Two elders from my hall RANDOMLY stopped by my apartment!
by macys 2 days ago 26 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Flg8ter
Flg8ter a day ago
They stopped by work yesterday to "see how I was doing." All I do is stay calm.....gracious.........thank them for coming, I appreciate their concern, we're good, I have their phone number, if I ever need anything I'll be sure to call them. The visits have been further and further apart. Important to remember to say as little as possible but don't be rude. Give them nothing and they have nothing to report to the other elders.
 +2 / -0
bafh
bafh a day ago

If you are trying to get reinstated, it might be good just to play nice. It's annoying, but there isn't anything to say they can't come by, they are elders, so they are probably checking up on you. You have to play along if you want to win the game.
 +4 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane a day ago
Ya, Have to agree with the group, if you want to be reinstated then you must comply to there standards, once you are reinstated then you can avoid them and ask them to not show up uninvited. You can do it now but it will cast a questionable light on your sincerity of wanting to re join the flock. The memorial season is upon us and they are out in herds I see them everywhere, its kind of creepy that I was part of that frenzy and craziness. This is the crazies you are asking to return too so don't be shocked at there behavior just play there game, you just have to be smarter then them, trust me its not that hard.
 +2 / -0
macys
macys a day ago
I would love to tell them to f**k off! but I think you guys are forgetting that I am going through with my reinstatement. It is like walking on eggshells. I have to be careful, I have to look like I am concentrating at the meetings, I have to pretend to care. Of course this goes against the very fabric of who I am but I have no choice. I have to pretend. So please do not judge me. It is not that easy. I try to be strong for my family but it is so hard. I have nobody to understand what I am going through here. I cry almost everyday still. I go through phases when everything seems great and I do not care to be Df'd then other days I miss them so much. The more I think about it the more I hate this cult!

 +6 / -0
nelim
nelim a day ago

I'm wondering... are you afraid of the elders? I guess not really if you have woken up, but also yes in the sense that you want to be reinstated. Therefore be liked to some degree by them. Perhaps just view them as (random) other human beings. They call on you, but you don't have to let them in. Just thank them for their invitation to the memorial (remember it's one of their duties). Remember they have as much authority as you give them.
None of the elders ever invited me to the memorial, should I feel happy or sad? I'm not sure :grinning:

 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane a day ago
Its all just a fu@ked up game, the only real power they have is what you give them. I view them as misguided people, some times with good intentions, those I give some leeway. The one that are corporate men I don't tolerate in any shape or form. Be strong a lot of us are going through some very difficult stuff just in a different way we really do understand trust me we do. Be strong and know that you are not alone.
 +1 / -0
No Longer a JW Brother
No Longer a JW Brother a day ago
We got your back. I can look pretty intimidating. Peace.

 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
ok wow.
i am really really pissed.
i had to really hold back and bite my tongue.



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1-2016 Circuit Overseer Mid week talk "Believe Inspired truth not inspired error" Crazy stuff
by Watchtower-Free 4 hours ago 8 Replies latest 8 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 4 hours ago





 +1 / -0
jehobi
jehobi 4 hours ago
BATSHITCRAZY
 
arwen
arwen 2 hours ago
I can't stand to listen to it!!! Grateful to be out!!
 
blondie
blondie an hour ago
I know this congregation...........................
 +1 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 an hour ago
Is there a transcript?
 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free an hour ago
No transcript

 
Hadriel
Hadriel 38 minutes ago

...he lost me at the 0:41 second mark with "expecially". You're a C.O. for crying out loud learn how to speak!
oh wait my bad you didn't go to college.
 +2 / -0
fastJehu
fastJehu 13 minutes ago
...he lost me at 1:04: "...alvin the chipmunk...." - explaining his name
 
ctrwtf
ctrwtf 8 minutes ago
Why do these dolts refer to themselves as "we?"
 

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"Ones"
by Joe Grundy 7 hours ago 20 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 7 hours ago

(I never was a dub).
This is something which has intrigued me for a while. I don't know whether it's dub-speak, or US-speak.
It's the use of the word 'Ones' as in 'interested ones', 'worldly ones', 'disfellowshipped ones' and so on and so on.
In the 'normal world' we would probably use the word 'people'.
Thoughts?

 
Simon
Simon 7 hours ago

Maybe subtle language to make people think on the individual level instead of the group.
It help prevent people thinking about just how many there are who are worldly or disfellowhipped (interested? not so much ...)
 
jhine
jhine 7 hours ago

I think that having their own terminology is all part of making themselves feel special and different , not part of the world .
Jan
 +1 / -0
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle 7 hours ago
it's a particularly American English pronoun, and considered formal. It's overused, but nothing really wrong with it in American Culture. However I believe, it would be considered outdated but most Americans today.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 6 hours ago
I always think there's a hidden agenda with the language of this cult. Maybe, this is just an antiquated way of speaking. After all, the leaders of the cult, past and present, are and were nut jobs ALL!
 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 6 hours ago

It seems to me that Jehovah's Witnesses use of language always labels and categorizes people. Loaded, polarizing language such as:
FAITHFUL vs Unfaithful
SHEEP vs Goat
BELIEVER vs Unbeliever
ACTIVE vs Inactive
SPIRITUAL vs Mentally Diseased
Along with titles such as: Governing Body, Anointed, Other Sheep, Elder, Ministerial Servant, Circuit Overseer, Pioneer etc., etc., etc. it helps the average Jehovah's Witness see whom they should 'demonize' as the 'other' and whom they can recognize as one of their own, worthy of fellowship. By using the term 'ones' they can seem to be speaking about an individual when in reality they are 'classifying' GROUPS of people as in the example of 'worldly ones'. Jehovah's Witnesses must keep up an 'us verses them' mentality at all costs. One of their basic tenants is that Jehovah is going to wipe out BILLIONS of humans at Armageddon, including babies, children and those who have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses. Joseph Stalin is reported to have said: "One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic." As long as Jehovah's Witnesses can look at the 'other' as a group and not as individual human beings, they can keep up the mental gymnastics required to stay faithful to their religion (which in their mind is the only 'truth' and thereby automatically sets them in opposition to anyone that does not wear the same 'labels' that they do).
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 6 hours ago

True observation, perhaps it has something to do with individually inspired based thinking separate from the group thinking ideology of a religious organization.

Dam those free thinkers, they are poison to their own devise and will one day parish for doing so.
All righteous people are faithfully obedient to the FDSL ( GB ) members chosen by god himself.

 +1 / -0
DNCall
DNCall 6 hours ago

I had been thinking of staring a thread on the same subject. I was a Witness for 56 years and I reside in the U.S., so a different perspective than yours; however, your take is exactly the same as mine. Whereas words like "person" or "individual" focus on the person being spoken of, "ones" always struck me as focusing on the collective of which that "one" is a part. The same is true of Brother or Sister so-and-so. Again, the focus is on the collective within which the person has a brother-like or sister-like relationship with other members of the group.

I believe, even though subtle, this language is calculated to draw attention away from the person and any uniqueness or independence that person may possess. The organization takes center stage.

 +3 / -0
blondie
blondie 6 hours ago

I suppose there are many words in "English" that differ in the US and the UK (where does Canada fit in?)
people is a group word but undifferentiated as much as individuals in "ones." Ones is a word used by the WTS version of English but not necessarily to non-jws on the outside. I certainly don't use "ones" but find it quite awkward. WTS vocabulary tends to reflect the stilted language in their bible.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 6 hours ago

No wonder someone compared this religious organization as the Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Individualized thoughts and independent thinking is identified as a thought crime and duly punishable.

 +2 / -0
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 5 hours ago

What always got me was their use of the term 'heart condition.' For example: "We need to be mindful of our heart condition towards Jehovah." Really?? Sounds like someone should call an ambulance!
I'd always found it to mean some kind of heart related medical problem, NOT a reference to 'where the heart lies' emotionally. At first, I thought it was just the way this elder talked...but then I heard it from other people, when I visited my wife's KH. Maybe it's in print like this too, I dunno.
Also...'worldly.' To me, it had always meant someone who is well traveled, or informed about the world. Visit JW-land and it has a WHOLE new meaning.
 
AnneB
AnneB 4 hours ago


In the 'normal world' we would probably use the word 'people'.
That's just the point, "Ones" is used to distance the speaker/listeners from the humanity of the persons being discussed. No "he", no "she", no "they"; only an unthinking, unfeeling, less than human "something" that the God-chosen dubbies are forced to deal with...so let it be at arm's length and best dealt with as an object.
Google the phrase "one is glad to be of service" or watch the movie "Bicentennial Man" for a deeper understanding.

 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 4 hours ago
The picture I get from that wt word interested --- "ones" is persons already detached from their former identity and singled out, meriting special attention, to be absorbed into the "fold".
 
sir82
sir82 4 hours ago

It also tends to de-personalize the people you are referring to.
It is subconsciously easier for a JW's mind to accept shunning of disfellowshipped "ones", the imminent destruction of worldly "ones", mocking the faithlessness of educated "ones" and so on.
If you refer to them as "persons" or "people", well, that sounds cruel and barbaric, which of course it is.
Same principle with wartime propaganda - dehumanize your enemy so you don't think about his wife & kids & dear old mother, wondering when he'll return home.

 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 4 hours ago

As already stated, there is a certain awkwardness whenever the pronoun "one" becomes the subject of a sentence and, in formal structure, must be retained throughout:
On such a lovely day as this, one thinks of happy times past, when one was doing what one wanted, with one's friends.
A bit exaggerated, yes, but correct. Yet, who talks like this? The example above is most likely to be found in literary writing; a contemporary writer would, generally, avoid such a structure, employing a more reader-friendly format. If you were to use a "person" as subject, your follow through of a pronoun in apposition would be either "he" or "she," which could pose other difficulties for the purist, who would never say "they."
Oh, btw, I believe it was noted as a peculiarity in the ARC commentary that the Society uses the term "lands" in place of "counties": i.e., 'Jehovah's Witnesses are found in over ### lands.'
CC
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 hours ago

" Ones who are faithfully dedicated "
" Ones who are opposed to being faithfully dedicated "
" Ones who are spiritually strong "
" Ones who are spiritually weak "

These all are identifiers used by JWS as implied means to distinguish "ones" own righteous identitying state or position.

 
sir82
sir82 4 hours ago

And in the case of applying "ones" in a positive aspect, sheeplike ones, humble ones, and so on...
Well, regardless of the depth of friendship or the closeness of family bond, every JW must be prepared to instantly shun any other JW at literally a moment's notice. "XYZ is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and BAM! Shun the "one".
If you depersonalize everyone, it is easier to shun them or pray for their execution by Jehovah, whether it happens now or years from now.

 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 hours ago

Good point Sir82

 
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 3 hours ago

Thanks for the comments.
When I see the use of 'ones' in quotes from dub-lit it jars and flashes the dub-speak warning. I wonder a little whether dubs use it to try and sound more 'churchy' (or in dubs' case more KHly). Listen to ministers, pastors, vicars, etc., and some of them use uncommon phraseology which perhaps to their mind is what they SHOULD sound like.
I'm sure that if I tried I could sound like a Methodist minister or a CofE Vicar (actually, now I recall, I have done in the past for work purposes). Don't know if I could 'do' a dub elder, though.

 
Island Man
Island Man 3 hours ago
I think we should look at the literature. It may just be that the term was used by one of the more prolific writers in the writing department and so it entered the JW culture in that way. I don't think there's anything ulterior behind its use. I think it's just a word that has become part of JW culture.

 

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"Ones"
by Joe Grundy 7 hours ago 20 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

I think JWs use a predefined talk or phrasing as a denoting expression to how spiritual strong one is toward whom they are presently associating with.
Elders who are looked upon or seen as spiritualty strong "Ones" or "Ones" who are spirit directed, talk with greater pretentiousness toward their identifying role. 
 

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Topic Summary
(i never was a dub).. this is something which has intrigued me for a while.
i don't know whether it's dub-speak, or us-speak.. it's the use of the word 'ones' as in 'interested ones', 'worldly ones', 'disfellowshipped ones' and so on and so on.. in the 'normal world' we would probably use the word 'people'.. thoughts?.



Related Topics
ToesUp
The Forgotten Ones
by ToesUp a month ago
Listener
Dis-association Vs Inactivity
by Listener 2 months ago
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Feb 2016 video on 'Taking time to marry' vs David Splane talk in Malmo, Sweden May 2013
by Esse quam videri 18 days ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LeftMyReligionToFindGod
Myth Dispelled! Leaving the Organization is NOT Leaving God
by LeftMyReligionToFindGod 4 months ago



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Estimating future growth or decline of Watchtower
by shepherdless a day ago 30 Replies latest 14 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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shepherdless
shepherdless a day ago

I have seen a few posts here, in various guises, in relation to whether Watchtower is in decline. Plenty of people respond, but it is all fairly anecdotal, or "gut feel". Some of it has been wishful thinking.
As of late 2015, Watchtower's numbers suggest it is still growing marginally, but there are various anecdotes on this site of publishers typically being older, and younger ones disappearing. Personally, I suspect there will never be a mass exodus, and that if Watchtower is to decline, it will be over a period of decades at least.
I think one of the most important indicators of future growth or decline, is the median age of the Witnesses. (By the way; "median age" does not mean the same thing as "average age". I am not going to explain the difference, here.)
Why is median age relevant?
◦Virtually every country on the planet that has a median age of over 40 is experiencing zero or negative population growth. (In fact most countries experiencing significant population growth have median ages of 30 or less.)
◦The effect of an increase in median age is not immediate. It plays out over decades.
◦The effect has been masked by increases in life expectancy in most countries.
◦Given that Watchtower struggles to gain recruits in the internet age, and is now heavily reliant on "born-ins" for future growth, I suspect the same applies to Watchtower.
Predicting growth from median age is a complicated topic, and the relevant median age that leads to a population decline depends on a number of factors and differs from region to region.
Japan is a good example. Its population peaked at 127.8 million in 2011 and is now back to around 126.8 million. It now has a median age of 45 and its population will inevitably continue to decline. The population decline has nothing to do with anything that happened since 2011, and everything to do with birth rates going back decades. In fact, the peak would have occurred before 2011, had it not been for increases in life expectancy.
I would say that if your local congregation has a median age over 50, or even over 40, it is in inevitable long term decline, even if the numbers appear stable at the moment. Individuals fading, getting d.a.'ed or d.f.'ed would be just speeding up the process.
So how do we estimate the median age?
If you still attend Kingdom Hall, you could look around and try to estimate the median age of your congregation, which is the theoretical age that exactly half are older than, and half are younger than. There is mostly no need to know or guess anyone's actual age, or work out averages. Just start with your guestimate of the median age, and count those who are above and those who are below it. If the numbers aren't even, adjust your guestimate and count again. (I think it is easier in practice than how it may sound, reading this.)
If estimating the median age as described above seems complicated, you could simply count the ratio of attendees over and under the age of, say, 50. That would still be useful info.

If a significant number of people here were to do that exercise, and report the median age here, I think it should be possible to work out rough but realistic estimates of how many Witnesses there will be in, say, 10 and in 20 years time. If you do choose to respond:
◦please respond even if the news is disappointing
◦if you can, please indicate your country
◦if your congregation is unusually small (or large) please mention that as well.
How about it?
[Edit: missing paragraphs reinserted]
 +6 / -0
nugget
nugget a day ago

I haven't been to a hall since 2009 so I am not in a position to say what is happening regarding meeting attendance. What I do know is that I see fewer witnesses on the traditional door to door work. I see fewer out and about in the community and apart from the occasional apathy cart they are invisible.
It seems that the term witness has gone from an active verb of speaking out and sounding an alarm to a passive verb of someone who watches people go by.
 +4 / -0
wannaexit
wannaexit a day ago
I know of the congregations in my area. There has been marginal growth. Most of the new baptized, have come from the ranks of the kids.

 
shepherdless
shepherdless a day ago

Hi nigget and wannaexit.
When I made my original post, some paragraphs mysteriously disappeared. I have reinserted them.
 
sir82
sir82 a day ago


If a significant number of people here were to do that exercise, and report the median age here
Not sure what you are after.
Do you want people to report the median age in their congregation? I doubt most people have access to that information. I can make a wild guess at the median of the ~120 people in mine, but it would probably be +/- 10 years accuracy.

Do you want people to report the median age of the country they live in? Seems like a google search would get that information instantly.

 
shepherdless
shepherdless a day ago

Hi Sir82,
here is two of the paragraphs that disappeared, and now reinserted:

If you still attend Kingdom Hall, you could look around and try to estimate the median age of your congregation, which is the theoretical age that exactly half are older than, and half are younger than. There is mostly no need to know or guess anyone's actual age, or work out averages. Just start with your guestimate of the median age, and count those who are above and those who are below it. If the numbers aren't even, adjust your guestimate and count again. (I think it is easier in practice than how it may sound, reading this.)
If estimating the median age as described above seems complicated, you could simply count the ratio of attendees over and under the age of, say, 50. That would still be useful info.

 
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
growth in the UK is definitely minimal, even worse in most parts of Europe, look at the figures for Germany and Poland, I do agree with the "mass exodus" theory not happing any time soon, but has any contemporary religious cult/sect ever seen a mass exodus? they are all shrinking, slowly dying and rotting away to be small irrelevant groups that the public will be less and less aware or bothered about, in my old circuit 3 traditional congs have been liquidated, one KH sold off, something you would have never thought would be possible 20 years ago, the cong of my ex jw wife has been merged. What will the WTS look like in the UK and Europe 10 years down the line? god knows, I see more of the same, perhaps circuit assembly halls sold off completely, there is no sign of a rekindling of growth that we saw in the late 1960's/1970's and 80's never in a million years.
 +2 / -0
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie a day ago
I don't see how the median age of congregations could have anything to say. The only way, would be for you to get information of the median age of a whole bunch of congregations in a specific country, a whole bunch. Congregations mirror the surrounding area, the country - there are so many "things" involved. You would need the median age of the JW community in a country as a whole.
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie a day ago
jookbeard - Poland is a country that can NOT be used as an example, since so many Polish citizens have left for other countries to get a job. In some other European countries, towards 6-7-8 even 10 % of the JWs are Polish, so within the EU of today it makes "much less" sense than earlier to look at the countries. It would be better to look at the number of JWs in foreign-speaking congregations in each country and add up for example all Polish-speaking congregations of the European countries.
 
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light a day ago

Im not sure what you looking for. The growth/decline of a group like JW depends on scandals, teachings and much more. So I don't think that it make much sense to collect the data.
But if you need numbers, maybe this is interesting, only germany:
From 2007-2015:
- they merged 276 congs to 138 congs
- they build 116 language-congs
- build 5 new congs
- build signlanguage-congs
I think main part is to find, how they fake the statistic. The language-cong save the statistic, but mostly there not much new people.
So if you start to calculate, you base it on the 8 Mill witnesses, first you have to start there and find some Information if 8 Mill is nearly correct.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
TOH; I wonder how many Polish jw's have actually left their homeland to live and work in other countries of the EU? I don think its that many, in London there are 4 Polish speaking congs at a guess each cong would probably be about 75 publishers each maybe far less, and London has been one of the most popular destinations for Polish migrant workers to settle in recent years probably only topped by Germany, also the town of Peterborough has one of the biggest Polish communities in the UK yet does not have a Polish speaking cong in it at all, has that made much of a dent into the full service report for Poland? More surprising are the amount of Portuguese and Spanish congs in London which seems more than double since I was in.
 
shepherdless
shepherdless a day ago

Hi OldHippie,
you are correct that there are a lot of factors involved. However, they can be dealt with. For example, in relation to Poland, the median age of the Polish population overall is 39.5 years. If i had the median ages for half a dozen Polish congregations, and I combine them, and get an overall median age of, say, 45 years, I know there will be a decline in Poland, irrespective of how many Polish citizens have moved, other factors, etc. I may even be able to estimate a rough rate of decline.
 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a day ago

I haven't been in about a year, so I may be a little off, but I'd estimate the median age of my former congregation to be about 45. That may be a little conservative, though - it may be closer to 50. I think there's roughly 90-100 publishers assigned to the congregation with an average sunday attendance around 50-70. This is in the southern US.
I like this approach to estimating the decline. It will at least give us a reasonable estimate on the upper limit of how things will trend for the cult. I definitely agree that it will be a mostly slow decline with no mass exodus (unless something really big happens) and the decline will be mostly driven by the old ones dying off over the next decade or two. The problem, though, is that JWs aren't even keeping up with population growth rates so the decline will be more than what you'd estimate using normal models. To get more accurate you'd have to adjust the life expectancy figure to account for the young ones that leave, but that would be a tough thing to estimate.
 +2 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

I think there is a decline much larger than the numbers published in the Yearbook would even indicate. Remember, they count "publishers" whether they always attend or seldom attend. Whether they are pioneers or "low hour" publishers. They all are counted. There is always a "push" to get irregular pubs to report at least 1 hour (or even 15 min for elderly), as there always is if someone is about to go (or goes) inactive.Thus the 8 million headcount is grossly inflated as to how many are really active, zealous diehard JDubs.

Additionally, many "active" JWs outright lie on their reports. Many here admit to doing just that. Faking it. Many are trapped and have to attend and report hours. (Thanks to you who are in that position and esp the elders that serve as our "double-agents" and leak all the "confidential" info.)
Locally in our area of the US, Kingdom Halls are being closed and congs being merged. First, because of overall shrinking membership & attendance. Second, because of the lack of men who will step up and (or show up) to serve as elders & MS. There are many elder appointments of young guys under 30 years of age. That never used to happen in the past.
WTS can continue to inflate the numbers by having their pep rallys and by juggling the real statistics.
If you really want to see what is happening, attend lunch at the Reg Conv near you this year. Over 1/2 of the auditorium is reserved for Elderly & Infirm. Almost any new "growth" (baptisms) will be that of born-in children too young to make a decision about what they will order from the restaurant menu after the event, let alone pay for it themselves.
Doc

 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

If the substantial drop in ones getting baptized in US last year is indicative to the decline in the WTS in most modern countries, that could be a good indicator for the rest of the world.

Maybe that's why the WTS is aggressively pining for money these days ....... the Jig is up.

 
joe134cd
joe134cd a day ago
When I was awakening, I was responsible for counting the attendances. I started to count by age. Basically 2/3 of the cong were 40 and over and 1/3 40 and under. With about 3% in the 18-25 year age group. This is in a 1st world westernized country out side the U.S/EUROPE.
 
Dick Trashy
Dick Trashy a day ago

I've been fading since 2014. Still a servant, still playing the game. I'm waiting for the right time to exit. I know that I'm just 1 of thousands just going because we have to. I've said by the end of this year I'm out no matter.
The JW has 10 years top. The internet will expose them.

 +3 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic a day ago

I'm not sure that "median age" will be particularly informative in estimating the potential decline of the WT. I think a much better source would be to look at how quickly the growth rate has declined over the past fifteen years and project that continued reduction into the future.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php
It's also worth noting that the decline isn't just in the lower recruitment. It's also in the fact that what qualifies as a "publisher" has been downgraded to someone who reports as little as fifteen minutes per month. Many of the publishers are JWs purely for social reasons and have little understanding or interest in doctrinal matter - and even less interest in donating funds or performing parts.
Pioneer hours have been reduced. Aux pioneer hours have been reduced. Length of talks have been reduced. Meetings have been reduced. Reading material has been reduced. Studies have been grossly simplified. Baptism is being encouraged younger and younger. Etc.
The WT has been fudging the numbers for some time. And there's not much more they can do at this point to keep cooking the books. The WT already is in decline. It has been for almost a decade now. The real question is how much longer can they hide that fact?
 
Landy
Landy a day ago


I've been fading since 2014. Still a servant, still playing the game. I'm waiting for the right time to exit. I know that I'm just 1 of thousands just going because we have to. I've said by the end of this year I'm out no matter.
The JW has 10 years top. The internet will expose them.
And it sounds like you'll still be there in 10 years. Still fading ......

 +1 / -2
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours a day ago

It is growing tremendously in 3rd world lands, I mean, African continent, the Caribbean islands, etc.
There are personality types that are attracted to the structured life of an Org like the WTBTS. Now, of course, they have the campaign of baptism at a young age and also visiting/recruiting at nursing homes.
The numbers, albeit slowly, will continue to grow.
DY
 

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Estimating future growth or decline of Watchtower
by shepherdless a day ago 30 Replies latest 14 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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JAHovers toilet cleaner
JAHovers toilet cleaner a day ago

Marginal growth if any.
All internal growth (born-ins).
Highest turnover rate of any religion.
I think the WT cult has many years left. After all it is a CULT.

 
kairos
kairos a day ago

Once the AUS commission starts forcing WT to pay out money and the future ones in other countries do the same, It will be impossible to hide the FACT that the donations to the WWW that JWs have been making for their entire lives are paying for Watchtower crime...
Then, add in awakened JWs watching the ARC video archives after seeing a 'satanic' media report that turned out to be 100% true.
When that is clearly evident, the exodus will be unstoppable.
How WT hides this much longer is the bigger mystery.
 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

shepherdless firstly are you already aware that there have been two academic articles that discuss precisely the point about JWs' prospects for future growth? In the 1990s Rodney Stark wrote an article about why JWs "grow so fast" compared with other churches and he projected JW figures for the next 100 years or so on the basis of either 4% or 2% annual growth, producing a range of 27 million to 194 million by 2090. Both of those look very optimistic now.
http://www.oocities.org/rogueactivex/JWGrow-O.pdf

Then in James Beckford's festschrift the secularisation theorist David Voas wrote a really interesting article arguing that JWs may suffer a dramatic decline in membership in the near to mid term. He argued that once decline begins to set in within a sectarian movement it tends to proceed rapidly, likening it to declines in fish stocks which tend to suffer collapses in numbers rather than gentle declines. I made a thread about it at the time.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/172862/british-sociologist-predicts-possible-collapse-jehovahs-witness-numbers?page=1
I think you are absolutely correct to focus on the age profile of adherents as an indicator of decline. Increasing age of membership is a well studied phenomenon in the UK in relation to declining churches such as Methodists, Anglicans and Presbyterians. Peter Brierley has collected data on church attendance, including age profiles and lots of other details for decades.
https://www.ministrytoday.org.uk/magazine/issues/43/352/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pulling-Out-The-Nosedive-Contemporary/dp/1853211680
David Voas, Steve Bruce and others have argued that secularisation proceeds as each succeeding generation rejects the faith of their parents. I reckon this is true for JWs as for other groups, they are just a little behind the curve. David Voas explains this sort of cohort analysis and what it means for church decline in this video.
http://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg
It's been years since I attended meetings now so I can't give accurate local information. I can only say that from talking to people who still attend they remark on the total lack of young people. As far as I know there are only 2 teenagers in the congregation, no children, two couples under 40, a few single sisters under 40, and the rest over 40, with probably about half aged 57 or over.
 +3 / -0
Ignoranceisbliss
Ignoranceisbliss 20 hours ago
Do we couldn't all attendees ? Babies, toddlers, etc? Or only pubs?
 
pepperheart
pepperheart 19 hours ago
i would say decline in both people AND money and now that they are having to sell the family silver off brooklyn and central london it will be very nice to see the borg slowly crumbling away

 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 19 hours ago

It's hard to imagine people getting dumber and the numbers of JWs increasing as the study SBF mentioned suggests. Sometimes hard numbers look great on paper, but they cannot predict chaos and all the minutiae. Seriously, who could have predicted the ARC or the Conti case, or the current Charity investigations?
DD
 +1 / -0
Mephis
Mephis 19 hours ago

Pew Survey covers the aging in the US. Pew have issues with sample size for JWs, but median age seems to be heading north of 50 there. ( http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-3-demographic-profiles-of-religious-groups/ )
I'd suspect that holds true for most industrialised countries as part of a more population trend, compounded by the JWs inability to retain born-ins.
 +1 / -0
Dunedain
Dunedain 18 hours ago

Honestly, the WTS has been in the decline phase, for a little over 20 years now. Like any decline, that is not a mass exodus, it starts out slow, but eventually becomes a "domino" effect of a gradually increasing , and much larger decline.
The ignorant, and back-firing, approach that the BORG implemented in the early 90's to the early 2000's, of a hard-lined, gestappo, high-controlling pressure on their OWN youths, DECIMATED their population. The eay to late 90's were RAMPANT with disfellowshippings of born in teenagers, and early 20 somethings, that the BORG has never recovered from it. Many of us here on this forum are "casualties" of the WTS's heavy handed, very strict pressure put upon their young ones, and causing them to leave, from either outright DF'ing, fading, or HATING the hypocritical acts of "slash and burning" head tripping Elders.
This was the start of the decline, and its grown exponentionally. Then once the INTERNET further PROVED and EXPOSED the failed prophecies, false writing, hypocritical acts, and evil of the BORG, iyt has now grown to a MAJOR collapse and fade of its CORE members.
You use to hear from those that were DF'd, that " I still believe its the truth, but I cant do it, or I got kicked out". Now, after the exposure of the internet, those that are kicked out, research the "roots" of the BORG, and realize its a bunch of HOGWASH.
When I use to run into old JW friend from my youth, who are out like me, we would talk about how its still the truth, but this and that. NOW, when you see someone who is out, we all realize how we know its a bunch of BULLSHIT. We compare "notes", we exchange websites, and we share info, from the child abuse scandals, to the horseshit, overlapping generation.
The domino effect is growing rapidly, and the dominos are falling quicker, and harder than ever before. The dominos have now been falling for over 20 years, and they are building up speed, strength, and are now reaching the very foundations of the BORG.
The WTS is on very shaky ground. The once "strong pillars" that held it up, are actually faultering now, and the higher ups, on top, are SHAKING IN THEIR SUITS. The GB's and "powers that be", are acting desperate, and irrational in their actions.They have EMBRACED the internet, that they once "demonized", and it is further adding to their downfall. They are embracing the "looks", and actions of main stream religions now, where in the past they use to denounce them. We find JW's singing and dancing, like old school evangelical religions. They have adopted worldly media to "blend" in better. They are trying to use "worldly" accolades, and devices to attract more youth.
AND THEY ARE FAILING MISERABLY. THEY STINK OF DESPERATION. THEY ARE FOLDING LIKE A HOUSE OF CARDS.

 +6 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 18 hours ago

I think the jig is up. The increase is barely keeping up with population growth. Many churches would be happy with that. . .BUT they are clearly aging out and as the older generations pass away, their kids will give up all pretensions of following the wtbts leaders. I think attrition is going to sock it to them, and soon. The wtbts may or may not have money(or maybe they took out loans against all the rich property after donations dropped off long ago and the money jig is really up too) but I think they have full awareness that they are not getting more converts that aren't dragged in by family. The people numbers are dropping and the people they got are mostly broke, save for elderly. That cash cow will soon be gone. Then what? I know a JW being appt as an elder in a hall with just a few years in org. No other qualified men. Only competition is a teenager. He knows nothing, parrots his wife and is clearly involved just for her.probably too sweet to be an elder.it will break his heart.
Attrition will get 'em.
 +1 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 17 hours ago

I think you are absolutely correct to focus on the age profile of adherents as an indicator of decline. Increasing age of membership is a well studied phenomenon in the UK in relation to declining churches such as Methodists, Anglicans and Presbyterians. Peter Brierley has collected data on church attendance, including age profiles and lots of other details for decades.
Good points SBF! I hadn't considered this.
 
joe134cd
joe134cd 14 hours ago
Sbf- you write some really thought provoking stuff. Have you ever thought about setting up a blog like JWservey.
 

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Topic Summary
i have seen a few posts here, in various guises, in relation to whether watchtower is in decline.
plenty of people respond, but it is all fairly anecdotal, or "gut feel".
some of it has been wishful thinking.. as of late 2015, watchtower's numbers suggest it is still growing marginally, but there are various anecdotes on this site of publishers typically being older, and younger ones disappearing.



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The Watchtower Corporation gets to legally keep all the money and property assets, even if it does fail or reduce in numbers
by Finkelstein a day ago 15 Replies latest 10 hours ago   watchtower scandals
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

I think its vitally important to realized that the WTS now has as of this year probably close to 2 billion in overall assets worldwide that it can live off for a very long time.

I get this gut feeling that the WTS heads are positioning themselves and the organization in tentative survival mode for the long run.
So many cut backs, the selling off of many branches, the down sizing of much of its operations, are all tell tale hints that even the Heads of this organization are preparing for the eventful devolving of this organization.
The WTS GB leaders say that Jah's chariot is moving along at a faster pace but in reflection of how this organization been conducting itself as of late, that wouldn't necessarily be the real truth of the matter.

What do you think ?

 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a day ago
I'd be fine with it if they take the money and run. Above my desire to see these frauds thrown out on the street is my desire to see the end of the victimization of millions of people.
 +2 / -0
blondie
blondie a day ago

Since the international headquarters are incorporated in the US they are subject to the laws of the US/IRS for non-profit religions corporations.
https://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Termination-of-an-Exempt-Organization
What to Do With Money When Dissolving a 501c3?
by John Cromwell, Demand Media
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To qualify for 501(c)(3) status, an organization must operate exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, to foster amateur sports competition, or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals. When a 501(c)(3) dissolves, the organization must settle all outstanding liabilities and distribute any leftover funds according to the provision set in its charter.

Resolving Debts
When a nonprofit decides to dissolve, the first thing it must do with its assets is satisfy all of its outstanding debts and liabilities. If the directors of the 501(c)(3) are keeping good records, they should be aware of the outstanding debts of the organization. To ensure that the organization settles all its debts, they may consider contacting any organizations or individuals with whom the 501(c)(3) has recently done business to inquire if any outstanding financial obligations exist.

Donating to a Like Cause
After the dissolving 501(c)(3) settles its debts, it may not transfer any remaining funds to shareholders or board members of the organization. When a 501(c)(3) organizes, it must include a provision in its charter defining how it will distribute any leftover assets when it dissolves. Generally, it must donate any remaining funds to another organization that has a similar mission to its own, a charitable organization, or to the federal government.

Transfer Process
Prior to transferring the cash to another charitable organization, the dissolving 501(c)(3) must do some due diligence and take some procedural steps: First, the dissolving 501(c)(3) must acquire information regarding the recipient organization's governing structure, its financial reports for three years, a copy of the recipient’s IRS letter of determination, and an affidavit of the recipient’s board stating the recipient is tax-exempt. After obtaining this information, the dissolving 501(c)(3) may have to obtain permission from the state where it is located to transfer the assets. Once it obtains permission, it can transfer funds to recipient, generally within a specific time frame.

Federal Filings
When the 501(c)(3) terminates, it must inform the IRS how it is going to dispose of its funds. When it files its final annual return, Form 990, it must enclose a completed Schedule N detailing how the assets of the organization were distributed. Schedule N describes all the assets disposed, including cash, as well as detailing any transaction fees and when distribution occurred. The IRS must receive the completed Form 990 and Schedule N within 4 months and 15 days of the dissolution of the 501(c)(3).
http://info.legalzoom.com/money-dissolving-501c3-21769.html
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Thanks blondie but I don't see that happening for along time away , at least not in are lifetime.

There is going to be continuing generations of men who will gladly sit on top of this flotilla of bullshit for their own means and purpose, even if they have to switch up the bullshit to keep the ignorant supporting engaged.

With all of that money and appealing power to languish in, its just too alluring and attractive for many men to take a ride on this ocean liner and bask in its wealth.
Which is kind of reflectively emulates why men such as J Rutherford grabbed onto the WTS for himself so many years ago.
The power and control was there, so was the money which he exploited both toward his own assuming desire .

 
bafh
bafh a day ago
If they were planning to dissolve the US Non-profits, then I would expect to see all of the assets being "given" to the other entities they have set up in other countries. There may be a country where they can shelter the assets without repercussions.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

I don't see the WTS dissolving its legal identity in the US just shrink or plateau its overall building growth.
You might see more pressing growth in poorer third world countries where there's a lessor quality of education and perhaps the inter-net.
 
Lostandfound
Lostandfound a day ago

Bath
There may be a country where they can shelter the assets without repercussions.
I am convinced that as we speak locations for "storing" money are in full progress, constitutions of variou charities of WT allow funds be transferred to related charities. Watch with interest the Charity Commission site in the UK to see how the funds held there vaporise.
GB paying for top level finance and organisational advice ,which is what led to present downsizing, or making proper use of dedicated funds, as they say out of the corner of their mouths.


 
JeffT
JeffT a day ago

I think the money is probably already in the safest country they can find. The US government is VERY reluctant to tread on the 1st amendment protection of churches. Unless they are doing something like outright criminal (think the Mormon renegades marrying thirteen year old girls) they aren't going to pursue a religion. That isn't true in a lot of other places.
 +2 / -0
Lostandfound
Lostandfound a day ago

Think of a country where the JWs are nominally proscribed .
And what safer location than a country with minimal corruption, perfect as a safe place to hide money ......................
 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing a day ago

the organization must settle all outstanding liabilities and distribute any leftover funds according to the provision set in its charter.
First of all ... this will never happen. But if it did, who would they distribute money to? Would they allowed to "distribute" it to another country or would it stay here in the US? They certainly would't give it back to it's members.
It still makes me sad they try eek so much money out of their members when their members are all poor and uneducated.
 +1 / -0
fulano
fulano 21 hours ago

Are all members poor and uneducated?????????
 +0 / -1
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 21 hours ago

No I wouldn't say that but there's a certain demographic there to be realized.

Part of that comes from the WTS leaders admonishing education, lack of education usually means poverty and actually the WTS encourages poverty.
For individuals mind you not the organization.

 +1 / -0
gone for good
gone for good 19 hours ago

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalcampaigns/taxjusticecampaign/taxhavenlist.
Luxembourg and Switzerland is where the WT elite in Europe will go to hide their share of skimmed donations.
Hong Kong and Singapore provide Asian brothers the latest in secret financial services.
And for our American cult leaders and their fave lawyers - the Cayman Islands will set you up with a phoney bank, a phoney company and a phoney charity. These are tiny private companies with any number of directors who spend the money world-wide using credit cards connected only to the host country.
 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 17 hours ago

Are all members poor and uneducated?????????



Here ... maybe this will help:




What is hyperbole?

Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect.
Source: http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/writing-hyperbole.php
 +1 / -0
Lostandfound
Lostandfound 10 hours ago

Gone for Good
yes Singapore, but not just for Asians............
 
Morning Warship
Morning Warship 10 hours ago
Not if I can help it. It is time for a major class action lawsuit against the WTBTS.

 

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