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Words omitted from a Watchtower article
by Doug Mason 3 days ago 18 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower bible
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Doug Mason
Doug Mason 3 days ago

Hi,
A short time ago I sought information regarding a quotation in The Watchtower of April 1, 2010, which did not identify the exact source of the quotation from Professor Oskar Skarsaune. My interest was heightened because words had been omitted from the source.
The WTS provided a copy of the original 29-page article, which is in Norwegian.
Here is my very unofficial personal translation of the passage from Professor Skarsaune's article that the Watchtower is quoting. Firstly I provide the text as it appears in the Watchtower magazine, highlighting where the text has been omitted. I then provide my unofficial translation, which corresponds with a translation done independently for me by a non-Norwegian friend. I have formatted the text to make it easier to see the text that has been omitted.
Read the remaining context of the Watchtower article.
Doug
------------------------
The Watchtower: April 1, 2010, pages 27-28
Note what Professor of Church History Oskar Skarsaune states:
“Which writings that were to be included in the New Testament, and which were not, was never decided upon by any church council or by any single person
…
The criteria were quite open and very sensible: Writings from the first century C.E. that were regarded as written by apostles or by their fellow workers were regarded as reliable. Other writings, letters, or ‘gospels’ that were written later were not included
…
This process was essentially completed a long time before Constantine and a long time before his church of power had been established. It was the church of martyrs, not the church of power, that gave us the New Testament.”
-------------------------
Translation using online resources by Doug Mason of the article by Professor Skarsaune,'Den mest rystende aysloringen de siste 2000 arene': Fra Da Vinci-koden til Den Hellige Gral", page 23
Which writings were to be included in the New Testament, and which were not, was never passed by any church fashion or by any individual,

but was the result of a process in which many churches in all parts of the church were involved, and where the selection

criteria were completely open and actually very sensible: Writings from the first century AD, which was considered authored by apostles or their employees were regarded as credible. Other writings, letters, or ‘gospels’ that were written later were not included,
whether they agreed with the New Testament writings in content or not.
This process was essentially completed long before Constantine, and long before his “power church” was established. It was the martyr Church, not the power church, which gave us the New Testament.
And the Martyr Church had no central power authority which could eradicate and suppress alternative fonts.
 +6 / -0
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Thank you, Doug. My grandmother, who had been raised Catholic, use to tell me about sins of omission and sins of commission. The policy of selective support narratives (partial quoting of sources) is an unusual hybrid sin, isn't it :smile:
The most evident demonstration of a scholastic inferiority complex by the Watchtower's elite core of 'channelers' is their quote mining.
It is habit (a bad one) developed before the age of the internet which I would compare to the Catholic Church's use of Latin in the Mass.
Now that anything can be investigated by an armchair sleuth, the curtain is pulled back and the light of day floods in.
 +5 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 days ago

This is SOP for the WT. I don't understand how the people writing the articles can do this?
This is one I picked up as soon as I read it. Sounded fishy. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/watchtower-again-misquotes-scientist-to-argue-against-evolution-and-this-time-its-personal
Anytime you read something that deals with science in a WT it will be BS.
 +6 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 3 days ago
Reading the original, unedited quotes, I find it difficult to comprehend the reasoning behind omitting those other words. It doesn't really affect too much what he wrote, and I see no good reason for even omitting them. I guess they are so used to doing it at this point that it probably feels weird for them NOT to omit words from quotes, even if it doesn't affect the point they are trying to make.
 
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 3 days ago

Actually, Tim, the words
"but was the result of a process in which many churches in all parts of the church were involved, and where the selection"
Completely change the meaning of the quote from the WT's viewpoint. The WT wants it to seem like there was no "Catholic" or central church that decided upon the NT canon, but the reality is that there was. It was "the church" as a whole that decided the canon, an already existing entity.
 +4 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 days ago

Yes ILoveTTATT2
2 minutes ago

In reality - the same people who decided in the TRINITY decided the Cannon.
The Catholic church is responsible for both those, as well as spreading the good news of the kingdom and Jesus to the world. Sorry JWs - the Catholic are the ones who made it known to the ends of the earth, not JWs.
JWs only have any success (very small in reality) in countries where the CC already brought christianity.
 +3 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 days ago

The "Church" is the body of Christ, according to my understanding of the Bible. It seems like it did not take long for legalism/organized/separate churches to spring up.
The WTBTS just does not want to admit that "False Religion" decided which dusty scrolls became the Bible.
DD
 +2 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 days ago


TimDrake19149 hours ago
Reading the original, unedited quotes, I find it difficult to comprehend the reasoning behind omitting those other words. It doesn't really affect too much what he wrote, and I see no good reason for even omitting them.
Watchtower wants followers to think that the Bible Canon was closed by the Apostles, not at some later period by the Church. Research into topic reveals that several different Bible Canons available, and it becomes obvious that the Bible in not a selection of books compiled by God's direction, but rather varied depending on the choices of men and the church over the centuries.
 +3 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 2 days ago

I guess where I'm confused about the quote is that, both the real story of how the New Testament canon was decided, as well as WT's views on it, seem like a very complicated, not-so-straight forward story to tell. Reading Bart Ehrman's blogs, I'm aware that the real story about how the canon was decided was a long, drawn out process that took place over hundreds of years via many arguments and disagreements between many churches and church fathers.
However, I don't think I've ever read anything from WT that specifically tries to contradict this story, or anything remotely close that tries to explain in detail how the canon was established. The closest thing I can think of is the "All Scripture" book that gives the reasoning behind why each book in their Bible can be considered inspired. But even that book has fallen on the wayside, and it seems as if now, and even back then, they've always shied away from trying to specifically explain why other "apocryphal" books are not inspired writings.
 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

The "hook" for JW's in luring away Bible believing church members is a basic form of 'bait and switch' in debunking certain proof texts on the one hand, but on the other hand, replacing those foundations with displacement scriptures and contrived contexts.
The key to all that is the acceptance of an inspired source book.
JW's must posit corruption only so far, otherwise, they've burned down the barn to rid themselves of rats.
This requires considerable cognitive dissonance.
Watchtower indoctrination consists of the death-by-a-thousand-cuts. Trimming, pruning, excising, surgically removing tidbits while replacing, adding, implying, conjecturing, and misrepresenting the replacement ideas.
Insidious disinformation mixed with wholesale disengenousness is a deadly cocktail.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

The WTS has had a long history of taking information as a whole or out of selective context and working it up to create their own appealing doctrine which may by virtue of intentional design to be advantageous toward the marketability of literature.

To support these doctrines the WTS heads proclaimed that they were or had been divinely chosen by god to dispense bible truths to further create a sense of viability toward their expressed doctrines. (1919)

Of course the most alluring and focused doctrine would be the return of Jesus Christ (1874), 1914) and the following prophetic End Times, GT eventuating to Armageddon.
These doctrines may not have had much biblical support, particularly in view of no one knows of the time or the admonishment of Christ for any of his "True" followers to set a time on God's own sacred time but they were nevertheless commercially advantageous for the proliferation of literature presented to the public.

 +1 / -0
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 2 days ago

"Watchtower wants followers to think that the Bible Canon was closed by the Apostles, not at some later period by the Church."
Not quite so, is it? "Scripture Inspired" book has a chapter on this, and ends with a list of canon identifying when compiled etc., and it is nowhere stated that the Apostles themselves decided on which books.
Name and Place
 Muratorian Irenaeus, Clement of Tertullian,
 Fragment, Asia Minor Alexandria N. Africa
 Italy
Approximate
 Date C.E. 170 180 190 207
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thessalonians A A A A
2 Thessalonians A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A
Hebrews D DA DA
James ?
1 Peter A? A A A
2 Peter D? A
1 John A A DA A
2 John A A DA
3 John A?
Jude A DA A
Revelation A A A A
Name and Place
 Origen, Eusebius, Cyril of Cheltenham
 Alexandria Palestine Jerusalem List,
 N. Africa
Approximate
 Date C.E. 230 320 348 365
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thessalonians A A A A
2 Thessalonians A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A A A
Hebrews DA DA A
James DA DA A
1 Peter A A A A
2 Peter DA DA A D
1 John A A A A
2 John DA DA A D
3 John DA DA A D
Jude DA DA A
Revelation A DA A
Name and Place
 Athanasius, Epiphanius, Gregory Amphilocius,
 Alexandria Palestine Nazianzus, Asia Minor
 Asia Minor
Approximate
 Date C.E. 367 368 370 370
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thessalonians A A A A
2 Thessalonians A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A A A
Hebrews A A A DA
James A A A A
1 Peter A A A A
2 Peter A A A D
1 John A A A A
2 John A A A D
3 John A A A D
Jude A A A D
Revelation A DA D
Name and Place
 Philaster, Jerome, Augustine, Third
 Italy Italy N. Africa Council of
 Carthage,
 N. Africa
Approximate
 Date C.E. 383 394 397 397
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thessalonians A A A A
2 Thessalonians A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A A A
Hebrews DA DA A A
James A DA A A
1 Peter A A A A
2 Peter A DA A A
1 John A A A A
2 John A DA A A
3 John A DA A A
Jude A DA A A
Revelation DA DA A A


 +2 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 2 days ago

Thank you @TheOldHippie! I was not aware of this chapter in the "Scripture Inspired" book, so I had to go and read it. Guess I should have paid more attention to this book back in my Uber-dub days. But admittedly, I didn't become interested in scholarly discussions of the Bible until after I was mentally out, ironically enough. It is quite interesting, and very relevant to this discussion indeed. Having immersed myself more in scholarly writings of the Bible, I was able to understand much more about this chapter than I would have previously. Going back to our original discussion, I must say that this chapter doesn't really disagree too much with what scholars say about how the biblical canon was established. They do acknowledge how it is something that eventually developed over hundreds of years, and even acknowledge that it was the church fathers' opinions that really influenced the eventual canon. But what I found a bit comical was how WT explains what their own criteria for establishing canon is. Using their own criteria, one could definitely make an argument for leaving out books that they themselves consider "canon". Paragraph 6 of that chapter is quite revealing. In regards to determining canonicity, they write:
"There must be no appeal to superstition or creature worship but, rather, an appeal to love and service of God. There would have to be nothing in any of the individual writings that would conflict with the internal harmony of the whole, but, rather, each book must, by its unity with the others, support the one authorship, that of Jehovah God. We would also expect the writings to give evidence of accuracy down to the smallest details. In addition to these basic essentials, there are other specific indications of inspiration, and therefore of canonicity, according to the nature of each book's contents, and these have been discussed herein in the introductory material to each of the Bible books. Also, there are special circumstances that apply to the Hebrew Scriptures and others to the Christian Greek Scriptures that help in establishing the Bible canon."
There are many things I could point out about their criteria, but I found the highlighted statement most comical. For anyone familiar with scholarly discussions on textual criticism of the Bible, reading that statement would make one believe that only ONE Gospel should be considered canon at most, or that no gospel should be! HAHAHAHAHA!


 +1 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 2 days ago


TheOldHippie6 hours ago

"Watchtower wants followers to think that the Bible Canon was closed by the Apostles, not at some later period by the Church."
Not quite so, is it?
I agree with what you say, but my comment is not that Watchtower says it was closed by the Apostles, but wants people to think it was closed by the Apostles.
To illustrate, Watchtower says Jesus is mediator for only the 144,000, but most JW's do not know this because Watchtower rarely refers to this teaching, because their doctrine is quite offensive. They are happy for JWs to misunderstand their teaching, which is why when they rarely discuss the mediator doctrine and when doing so frame it so it is very difficult to understand their teaching.
In a similar way, Watchtower knows the Apostles did not choose the canon, so do not state that, but they like to leave that impression. IMO, the quote from OP is misquoted with little benefit to do so than to leave the impression the Apostles and/or first century Christians were responsible for deciding on the Bible Canon, rather than the "Church" at a later period. They regularly speak about the apostasy occurring after the death of the Apostles, and how John wrote the final books of the Bible, so that JW's will assume the Bible Canon was completed by John. I certainly thought that way until I left Watchtower and did research outside Watchtower publications, despite spending a lot of time going through All Scriptures Inspired.
When Insight, Volume 1 p. 409 discusses the Canon, it states "Outside the Scriptures themselves there is evidence that, as early as 90-100 C.E., at least ten of Paul’s letters were collected together. It is certain that at an early date Christians were gathering together the inspired Christian writings." It then goes on to discuss how the Early Fathers were quoting the NT books. Again, this does not say the Canon was closed by 100, but as I read these quotes as a JW, wanting to believe God directed the Canon, I thought that is what it meant.



 +3 / -0
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 2 days ago
I have just received a letter from Professor Skarsaune, which I shall include in my formal response to that passage in the 2010 Watchtower.
The WTS wishes to make it appear that the decisions regarding the Canon were made by their (mythical) first-century Governing Body, whereas the passage they cite from Professor Skarsaune contradicts that assertion. The Professor has picked up on that.
Doug
 +3 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 2 days ago

The WTS wishes to make it appear that the decisions regarding the Canon were made by their (mythical) first-century Governing Body,

Exactly my point, but put more succinctly.
The term governing body and its concept does not appear in the New Testament, yet has become the fundamental basis for explaining how first century Christians operated and the devotion of JWs to the religion now. With the latest changes in doctrine, it seems supporting the GB concept is the key motivation of the change.
 +2 / -0
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 2 days ago

You might find my charts at pages 57 to 64 of my Study helpful:
http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf

When I give these page numbers, I mean the numbers at the bottom of the page, not the PDF page numbers. I should set about correcting that anomaly.
Doug
 +1 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 a day ago
Thank you for that link Doug. I hadn't seen that one before, and it looks like another great study. Coincidentally, I just wanted to personally thank you, Terry and Paul for all the great work you've all done for us EX-JWs. Personally speaking, I've benefitted greatly from all the writings you all have put together, and I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for all the work you all have done. One of the doubts I always had that led me to eventually wake up was the doctrine of 1914, and your writings in particular, Doug, really helped me understand it enough to see the real truth behind it.
 
Doug Mason
Doug Mason a day ago

TimDrake,
Thank you so much.
I am about to release a brief summary on the Society's creation of 1914. There will be nothing new in it but my intention is to provide a simple introduction and an overview.
Doug

 +1 / -0

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Need confirmation: WT bought an entire mountain in China to mine the granite needed for new WT HQ
by WingCommander 11 hours ago 26 Replies latest an hour ago   jw friends
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WingCommander
WingCommander 11 hours ago

Someone asked for a second source on this, so I'm putting this out there to those who may have visited the new WT HQ lately and know it to be true. I had read from others on the ex-JW subreddit that had taken a tour recently at WT HQ, that they had been shown photos of a mountain in China, and told that this is where all of the granite is being mined from and shipped over to New York to use at the site of the new WT HQ. Apparently, it was cheaper for them to do this and have the local brothers in China mine it, then having to by tons upon tons of granite here in the USA, even wholesale. I can tell you for a certainty, that TONS of high grade granite are being used on site, and not just for trim or decoration, but for actual retaining walls and even at the shipping docks! Apparently, no expense is being spared in the re-building of Solomon's Temple. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a full mock-up (in Gold, matching Bible's description) of the Ark of the Covenant.

So please, anyone reading this who may have toured the new WT HQ or who even may be volunteering or working on the new cult compound....errr......WT HQ, please confirm this. I know for fact there are at least SOME apostates high up on the construction crew, as I've seen actual photos from site on reddit and even CAD renderings.
Let everyone know how the ice cream money is being spent. Thanks!

 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 10 hours ago

That sound just nuts, and made up. 
All the "brothers" in China are underground, and buying a mine would not be cheaper than buying granite which is just a commodity.
By the way - Tons of granite is not a big number when you are talking about rocks.
 +5 / -3
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 10 hours ago

I believe it is very possible for the Watchtower to buy their own quarry and harvest the granite themselves. They seem to have endless money, and are very predatory .... err resourceful using volunteer labor. This is a bit more complicated than making their own glue, which they have done for years, but it still falls within the realm of possible.
I do question how this was able to happen in China. I can't imagine them being able to do this under the Watchtower name. I imagine they would need to do business in China with a more auspicious name that has no connection to the Watchtower.
But, I imagine the "volunteer labor" is easy to come by in China. People are starving over there, and sending your young uneducated son that you can't afford to feed off to the Watchtower where they will take good care of him ... provide shelter and plenty to eat in exchange for work ... would seem like a great deal to them. Over there I don't think they would even see it as slave labor. They would just see it as a job.
I am anxious to hear confirmation of this and I hope someone can find out what name they are doing business under.
 
juandefiero
juandefiero 10 hours ago

ttdtt gives a logical, rational response...then gets a dislike.
This forum is completely ridiculous sometimes.
 +10 / -2
WingCommander
WingCommander 10 hours ago

Here is a link to the thread where I saw this. It's about half way down in a paragraph. The brother describes his recent visit.https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4ak48i/to_all_congregations_in_the_united_states_branch/
Here is the actual text (copy and paste) for those that don't want to click the link.
When speaking about his recent visit to Bethel, this guys responds:



It was actually really boring if I'm going to be honest. I enjoyed the tours at all the other bethels despite being an apostate, but this one was especially boring. The main lobby looks nice and modern, with a big wooden QR code on the wall that leads to JW.org.
The tour itself was mainly just showing us where they eat, where they all load the busses, some offices and some store rooms. But there were a few interesting things we saw and learned.
The most interesting thing I learned was that they literally bought an entire fucking mountain in China. A lot of the outside of Warwick is going to be solid granite. They literally need so much granite to complete the project, it was cheaper to buy an entire mountain half way across the world and have the brothers over in China mine it than it was to buy granite from a retailer or wholesale.
We were showed this area that they refer to as the snake pit, and we were shown a mockup of what will be the governing body offices. They looked super modern and well design, and were quite large. The guy giving the tour told us that they originally had a different design, but they decided to go with this design because it would save them millions of dollars. Millions. For the fucking offices of 7 stupid men.
We were also showed the future location of JW Broadcasting. We saw some mockup walls of what the auditorium would look like. They're using the wood they cut down on the actual property for a lot of the project. We even saw the sawmill where they cut the wood when we got a tour of Walkill. They're doing the whole grass on roof thing which is cool. As much as a I wish I could say that they suck at building Warwick, it really is beautiful and cutting edge.
Also someone died while at Warwick. They briefly mentioned it and it really peaked my interest so I was all like, "OMG really?" To which they shut me down and said he drowned when he was off the clock. They made sure I knew he died off the clock. But I mean, the poor guy still died. :pensive:
 
Londo111
Londo111 10 hours ago

By China, could this mean Taiwan? And how would one define a mountain?
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 9 hours ago

It's entirely possible they are buying and importing granite from China. It's less likely they 'bought' a mountain. It is however, totally impossible that they are using JW labor in China to get it. No fucking way.
I wouldn't be surprised if the tour guide was making shit up or passing down rumors. I did it all the time when giving tours in Brooklyn.
 +7 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 9 hours ago

The story is crazy. There would be NO cost savings.
Yea a Banned Religious group is going to start or buy a mining company in China to get some rocks cheep.
No problems with the Chinese government, you just bribe them to get what you want.
No problem getting skilled labor to run a mining company. We get the 32 underground JWs to work there from all over the country. And they can have Morning Text, and WT studies at lunch break.
And saying they are going to China for High Quality granite? :smile: Interesting little article about that - http://www.ehow.com/info_12183280_chinese-granite-problems.html
 +4 / -1
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 8 hours ago

I find it entirely plausible that the WT is involved in granite mining in China. Maybe they haven't bought a whole mountain, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are using granite from mines that the WT is either investing in themselves or, as per usual....probably the money bag men who pull the WT's strings have ownership in Chinese mining projects.
I wonder what the quality of stone is that they are getting.
http://solidsurfacealliance.org/ss-better-than-granite6.html

Many countries, alarmed by the surge in granite use in homes, have sponsored
studies into the health aspects of granite, mostly radiation issues and Radon
gas exhalation rates. China was so concerned with the radiation levels of
granite that they started classifying and regulating it into four levels, with only
the safest level being suitable for use in Chinese dwellings. Silicosis is a well
studied problem from the last century, once almost eradicated as an industrial
disease, yet making a comeback due to the boom in granite countertop
fabrication.
The lower prices of exported granite from China is mostly due to the banning of
the three lower levels from being used inside Chinese dwellings, yet the
regulations do not prohibit export.
And, apparently injury to workers is the biggest problem that granite mining faces:
By far the worst problem caused by the large slab sizes is the injury and
accidental death of workers. A full size granite slab will weigh over one
thousand pounds, enough to crush a man, even amputate limbs. Slabs are
handled with slab clamps which grab the center of the sheet. If the slab breaks,
the suddenly unbalanced slab can easily crush feet and hands, even swinging
out of control to kill workers. A-frame failures have killed many workers, falling
like dominoes, dozens even hundreds of slabs collapsing in some cases.




 +1 / -0
oppostate
oppostate 8 hours ago

Thanks for that link, ttdtt.
"Chinese granite is its high levels of radiation. Radioactive isotopes of potassium and radium exist in most Chinese granite in higher levels than elsewhere. Chinese chemist L. Xinwei and his colleagues claimed in 2005 that six types of the most sought-after granite mined in China contained more than the normal radiation limit for home use."
 +3 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 8 hours ago

The Watchtower is buying granite from Rongcheng Best Cheer Granite Co. in Dongguan China.
2015 bill of lading at this link https://panjiva.com/Watchtower-Bible-And-Tract-Society/32439558
 +2 / -0
sir82
sir82 8 hours ago
45,000 kilos is a lot, but not exactly a "mountain".

 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 8 hours ago

Oops...I think I linked to the wrong bill of lading.
This one is for granite:
https://panjiva.com/Rongcheng-Best-Cheer-Granite-Co-Lt/27773970
and another one:
https://www.importgenius.com/suppliers/rongcheng-best-cheer-granite-co-lt


 +1 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 8 hours ago

So........they are getting it from China then? Probably bought only "half" a mountain, instead of just a whole one, huh? So I'm guessing the guy I quoted above isn't just making shit up from his Bethel tour, huh?
Does anyone know if WT bought the company listed above, or if it is merely a "shell company" set up to fool the Chinese government?

 +0 / -1
juandefiero
juandefiero 8 hours ago
159,990 kg of granite = a little more than 2,000 cubic feet of granite...that's not really that much.
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 7 hours ago

The panjiva website shows "7" shipments to the WT. Not sure how many were for granite - one is from a cabinetry company. Maybe the literature carts.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 7 hours ago
https://deescalation.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/bullshit-detector.jpg?w=720
 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 7 hours ago

WC: Does anyone know if WT bought the company listed above, or if it is merely a "shell company" set up to fool the Chinese government?
The company was established in 1986 but I have not been able to find any ownership history. Probably won't. And, a company of that scope would have lots of private investors. Difficult to know the connections if there are any. However, the WT has a reputation for dealing with "insiders" whenever possible.
http://rongchengbestcheer.gogostone.com/companyInfo.asp

 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 7 hours ago

Yes, Finkelstein, it is sort of smelly.
It reminds me of kids in the sandbox bragging about all the stuff their dad can do. Childish exaggeration with a childlike mind that will believe anything their parent tells them.
 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 7 hours ago

It reminds me of kids in the sandbox bragging about all the stuff their dad can do. Childish exaggeration with a childlike mind that will believe anything their parent tells them. -- OrphanCrow
I played with Nana's neighbor kid when I was visiting. We dug and played in the sandbox. I started digging too deep, and she warned me that her dad was going to cut my ears off.
I believed her . . . Thanks, OC, for happy memories revisited!
CC
 +1 / -0

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Need confirmation: WT bought an entire mountain in China to mine the granite needed for new WT HQ
by WingCommander 11 hours ago 26 Replies latest an hour ago   jw friends
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OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 7 hours ago

You are welcome, CC. :smile:
Wing Commander, here is a link with a history of Best Cheer back to 1994. They seem to be a well established company with international connections.
http://www.bestcheer.com/en/about/list_82.aspx

 
tim3l0rd
tim3l0rd 7 hours ago

The WT has TONS of underground activity going on in China. It's easy for them to create a corporation that has no direct ties to the banned religion. They did similar things in the US when buying up property in New York. I personally know that they have corporations that they own/use in China for buying and warehousing all manner of Chinese made products to be used in other countries. I don't know the corporation names but I know some that have worked at them in China.
I could see them buying an mountain and using "need greaters" or Chinese JWs to mine the granite.
 +1 / -0
the girl next door
the girl next door 7 hours ago

China is the greatest exporter of Granite to the United States. When you go to vendors anywhere in the US, chances are the slabs have come from China. Costs would not be driven down even if it was possible to purchase a Chinese quarry(or mountain) and have your own labor force(JWs with quarry experience in all phases? NOT LIKELY) preparing the stone for export.
The story as presented is complete rubbish.
More likely, WT purchased the equivalent of a "mountain" in granite from a US vendor.(WT could easily set themselves up as a vendor) And like many stories coming from the R&F it has been embellished and amounts to a fairy tale.
 +3 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 6 hours ago

thegirlnextdoor: WT could easily set themselves up as a vendor
The bill of ladings, that I linked to, show that the WT is buying directly from a Chinese company.
 +1 / -0
resluprubo
resluprubo 6 hours ago

100% certified BS
Sorry about that.

 
millie210
millie210 6 hours ago

Wasnt there a thread here a while ago about a brother in California who made a granite piece of some sort to be used on the loading bay at the new facility and when he tried to ship it - the Org rejected it?
Dont know the proper terminology for what the piece he made is called but I remember some of the comments suggesting that was ridiculous in a loading/unloading dock because they are usually all concrete.
 
stanley theater
stanley theater an hour ago

All very interesting BUT
First of all WT is not banned in China.
The religion is not APPROVED but that is very different.
WT has established Global Purchasing there, and has many NY bethelites assigned under visas issued via WT.
China is not concerned about WT. if they do business there, that is fine , they are small beer. They are more concerned about Falun Gong for example with more than 300 million followers.
Please keep things in perspective.
Stanley
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
someone asked for a second source on this, so i'm putting this out there to those who may have visited the new wt hq lately and know it to be true.
i had read from others on the ex-jw subreddit that had taken a tour recently at wt hq, that they had been shown photos of a mountain in china, and told that this is where all of the granite is being mined from and shipped over to new york to use at the site of the new wt hq.
apparently, it was cheaper for them to do this and have the local brothers in china mine it, then having to by tons upon tons of granite here in the usa, even wholesale.



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by Terry 24 days ago



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Little Free Library
by pbrow 10 hours ago 7 Replies latest 6 hours ago   jw friends
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pbrow
pbrow 10 hours ago

Hey all,
Almost finished with a "little free library" to set up in front of the house and was wondering if anyone else has put one of these up? Got to thinking that it may get filled up with my tots fav periodicals, watchtower and awake.
Anyone else had any experience with this?
pbrow
 
juandefiero
juandefiero 10 hours ago

We have a bunch in our area.
Everytime I see JW literature in them, I take the stuff and trash it immediately.
If it is YOUR library, you could put a sticker on there that looks something like this:



 +1 / -0
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle 9 hours ago

if you keep an eye on it you could stem the flow of literature AKA "trash".
Have you heard the phrase HoneyPot? i'm sure there are other uses, but in the IT world, it is a server purposely setup to allow hackers in, then they are traced or monitored.
 
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 9 hours ago

Unfortunately about a year ago I would've been a JW to fill your lovely little library with Watchtower and awakes (and maybe a bible teach book here and there). There are many free little libraries where I live and I would hit them all up when I was in early morning service. Easy way to pass the time and rack up the placement count.
I feel like I need to apologize to every business/home owner I littered with JW propaganda.
 +3 / -0
pbrow
pbrow 9 hours ago

I will def keep an eye on it for that specific reason.
Although I am a known apostate in my area so I might get a few "return to jehovah" tracts
pbrow
 
EyesOpenHeartBroken
EyesOpenHeartBroken 7 hours ago
In my area the free little libraries are all over the residential neighborhoods. Stuffing JW literature in them, seems to be a popular new "witnessing" technique. Whenever I find some, I pop it in the ♻️ Bin. I was laughing to myself the other day because whoever is placing this literature probably thinks someone is taking it to read, not tossing it. 😂
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 6 hours ago
On my way back from work I used to hit all the laundromats and trash all the Witchtowers and Asleep magazines I could find.
 +1 / -0
blondie
blondie 6 hours ago

I think when we get back from our travels we'll put one up. I get books from Goodwill and library sales. We have a lot of children in our neighborhood.
I would take out ANY religious books I found in there. I don't want to promote anyone's idea of God.
 +1 / -0

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Jehovah`s Witnesses an Old Testament Religion
by smiddy 16 hours ago 11 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower bible
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smiddy
smiddy 16 hours ago

Jehovah`s Witnesses claim to be a Christian Religion , however looking at their history , publications ,such as the Watchtower and Awake mags., their Conventions ,International ,regional ,Local ,etc.their books pamphlets ,brochures ,etc.etc. you are hard pressed to find references to the New Testament and references to Jesus and his ministry .
They seem to be more focused on the Old Testament , and the GOD of the old testament.Jehovah
Even in their Dramas at Conventions , international and local events they are pre-occupied with Old Testament accounts and experiences , and not Christian experiences , examples or ,lives to emulate .
They claim to be a Christian Religion and very seldom do they highlight the name of JESUS , or his teachings , they are fixed on the Old Testament name of Jehovah , and what he did in the Old Testament. Jehovah a name Christendom invented.around the thirteenth Century., and J.W.`s adopted for their religion.
The general feeling is the old testament GOD is a bloodthirsty God of war, an avenging God.
The general feeling in the New testament of Jesus is a God of love and forgiveness .
And Jehovah`s Witnesses choose to back the GOD of the Old Testament against JESUS
smiddy
 +7 / -0
Heartsafire
Heartsafire 15 hours ago

Smiddy, I too have always been baffled by the unyielding hyper-focus on OT especially when it comes to Jewish laws that somehow correspond with what WT wants people to do.
Years ago I began to wonder why we never talked about worshipping Christ if we claim to be Christians. I read in the now out of print reasoning book that it is okay to worship Christ, yet that point is never discussed from the KH platform in depth, but of course, Jesus is just an angel, remember? Ugh.
The org is neither Christian nor following Jewish law as it was intended to be followed. It's a weird conglomeration of a controlling business that poses as religion and interprets scripture however the GB wishes.
 +2 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 13 hours ago

The old testament based on fear, death and a leader on earth.
The new testament based on love, brotherhood and a leader in heaven who give you not much rules.
So, if you try to build up a hi-control pseudo-religion, based on fear, you have to use the old testament.
 +2 / -0
zeb
zeb 13 hours ago
I too have wondered this over the years. CFL you have it in one.
 
stillin
stillin 13 hours ago
Of course, the defense of this stance regarding "keeping Jehovah first" is grounded in the EXAMPLE of Jesus Christ. But they cherry-pick around Jeaus' life and ministry to the extent that he becomes a very distant second -placer, almost irrelevant.
 +1 / -0
Morning Warship
Morning Warship 13 hours ago
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the OT and the NT were written by two completely different groups of people. Either that or Jehovah and Jesus are psychopaths.

 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 11 hours ago

The WTBTS doesn't even believe in using the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament." They have written specific articles about why saying "New Testament" stems from "False Religion." ( The same Commentaries which provide the GB with much of their nu-light. )
They love the Tabernacle/Temple/Mosaic Law system so much, that they would go back in time if they could. When the Bible speaks of people who prefer the Law over God's Grace, ( not "undeserved kindness" ) it's speaking of religions like JWs. Organized, Legalistic, misogynist, vengeful, self-loathing, insular religions dream of the Old Testament every night, wondering how they can re-create the Communist State of ancient Israel.
DD
 +2 / -0
nowwhat?
nowwhat? 10 hours ago
That's why I was pleasently surprised they had the imitate Jesus convention last year. Now they are back to loyalty to Jehovah (GB) for this year.
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 10 hours ago

"Imitate Jesus" was just for show. They wanted say, "See? We're Xians! We made one Jesus movie, starring Jesus Van Der Beek, and it only took 100 years to produce it!"
Now it's time for the R&F to STFU, contribute and worship the SLAVE.
DD
 +1 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 10 hours ago

Members of the GB following Jesus?
Evidently, the GB is better than Jesus. 
 
tor1500
tor1500 9 hours ago

Hi All,
The general feeling is the old testament GOD is a bloodthirsty God of war, an avenging God.
The general feeling in the New testament of Jesus is a God of love and forgiveness
You know why? See these two points I've copied & pasted....This is who they are...they are bloodthirsty, and vengeful. They love to DF, to shun, all the ways in the OT, appeals to them...The NT is about love & they have to learn that, because it's not in them...I've spoken to a few folks that are not JW's & they say, They love the fact that they DF folks when they do something wrong & want to keep the congregation clean....BS. If you want to keep the congregation clean, you'd have to clean out the entire org. At the core of most witnesses is a mean spirit. Anyone who wants God to destroy folks because they won't listen to them, that tells you who they really are.
Many of them can't identify with love....they never came from a loving home, so that's why they really can't get the NT. They talk about love, but they don't have it. From what I observed, parents are good JW's, but not loving parents...they are about rules & regulation (again, that's why they love the OT). They make sure they feed them, clothe them, roof over their head but much rather their kids be servants of Jehovah then them actually nurturing them...I watch them at the hall. They stare at their kids, make sure they sit straight, don't fall asleep, & paying attention....& it looks could kill their kids would be dead. Oh yes, make sure they raise their hands to comment.
They don't a clue how to imitate Jesus....even though their are no more sacrifices, if God brought them back, the JW's would be the first to do it...they love to sacrifice when it is seen. They do nothing unless it's seen or counted.
They feel that they have to bring back the name of God...that's their main objective...good works, faith, all on the back burner.
It's funny someone brought up this topic, a sister that just got baptized a year ago, brought up this same point to me...she said, I think they dwell in the OT too much...Life is beautiful, nothing like the OT...she was too new for me to say anything..I just told her to pay attention...& remember, you don't serve man...
Witnesses are afraid to imitate Jesus, means they would have to come out of their comfort zone of a mean spirit, which is the core of most of them.
I know about it first hand...believe me...I see it all. I could go on...but won't.
Tor
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 8 hours ago

To the greater god comes the greater power .

Organized, Legalistic, misogynist, vengeful, self-loathing, insular religions dream of the Old Testament every night, wondering how they can re-create the Communist State of ancient Israel.
Well said Data Dog

I think some of this theological adherence goes right back to C T Russell's teachings as a Zionist who was supposedly decoding the greater god's will and purpose for all mankind.
Those other faiths in Christendom focus their worship onto Jesus. the lower god, or as "The God" incorrectly.

True worship should be directed to Jehovah and not his son.

 

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JWs and the Amish
by Silverleaf 14 years ago 21 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Silverleaf
Silverleaf 14 years ago


Hi all,
This morning's paper had an article on the Amish [nothing in depth, just about how they sell their wares at local markets] but it brought to mind the ideas of the Amish - they want no part of the world, they don't like to call attention to themselves, don't baptize little children, and they shun those who leave the faith.
I was just wondering if anyone here could shed some light on how JWs view the Amish. Are they impressed? Do they think of the Amish as being too strict? Has anyone here ever known anyone who witnessed to the Amish or done so themselves?
Just curious,
Silverleaf
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 14 years ago


They don't have much to say about them other than this story. All other references I could find were a mention of them in passing. The JW telling the story seems to cast a light of weirdness.
*** w67 2/1 92-5 Offering Myself Willingly ***
Offering Myself Willingly As told by Malinda Z. Keefer I AM eighty-three years old but very happy. My happiness arises largely from the fact that over fifty years ago I offered myself as a willing volunteer in the full-time service of Jehovah now called the pioneer ministry. From that time till now I have liked to think of the words of the psalmist: Your people will offer themselves willingly; and how grateful I am that I offered myself willingly as a pioneer!Ps. 110:3
I was born in Eden, Pennsylvania; my parents being of the old-order Amish faith of Lancaster County. These Amish folks are very plain in their way of living and dress, and some of them still travel about with horse and buggy.
Due to my fathers death when I was four years old, our farm was sold; and in time I went to live with my sister on a Lancaster County farm, where one could enjoy the beauties of Gods creation. Often I would stroll through the apple orchard, so beautiful in the spring, with the tree trunks whitewashed and the branches just filled with fragrant pink blossoms. What a wonderful Creator and Provider! I would say to myself; but in the Amish Church I was taught that someday all these things God created would be burned up. I was also bothered by the teaching that the wicked would suffer forever in torment. This all seemed so unreasonable, and was this really what the Bible taught?
I was always interested in the Bible and longed for a better understanding of Gods Word, but it was not until the year 1906 that I came in contact with the Bibles truth. My brother-in-law, knowing my love for the Bible, gave me a copy of one of Charles T. Russells printed sermons entitled Where Are the Dead? Great was my joy in knowing that the Bible taught that the dead are asleep and not conscious somewhere in torment. This was just the beginning of the light that would shine in my life brighter and brighter. How happy I was to learn that the earth and its beauty would never be destroyed! I was willing and eager to learn more of Gods Word, and how grateful I was to Jehovah for letting me see his truth!
LEAVING THE AMISH CHURCH
Others in the same Amish church began to see Gods truth. But some said we were going crazy on religion. When my brother-in-law handed me The Divine Plan of the Ages, the first volume of the Studies in the Scriptures, he said, If you dont want to be called crazy, dont read it. Of course, he knew I would read it, as he was eagerly reading it himself. I was reminded of what Festus said to the apostle Paul: You are going mad, Paul! Great learning is driving you into madness! Paul said: I am not going mad . . . but I am uttering sayings of truth and of soundness of mind. (Acts 26:24, 25) I, too, had to make my mind over to Gods will and way for true Christians, and at that time I discarded the Amish garb I was then wearing.
The Amish minister called different times to get me to come back to church. When I knew the day of his coming, I would get up at three oclock in the morning to study my Bible so I could defend the truth, as the apostle Peter said Christians should be always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands a reason for their hope. (1 Pet. 3:15) For me the Bible was now a meaningful book.
There was quite a stir in the church when, not just I, but twenty-four other persons also left the Amish Church. The rules of the Amish Church are that if one leaves the church the members must not eat with him. I was shunned by them in many ways, but no intimidation or fear of man could turn me back from offering myself to Jehovah as a willing volunteer for Gods work. Jehovah had now shown me a new way of life. How well I remember the last time I went to church, and Revelation 18:4 (AV) kept going through my mind: Come out of her, my people, Come out of her, my people. That I did.
I began meeting with a little group of Bible Students, as Jehovahs witnesses were then called, and there I learned more of Jehovahs wonderful purposes. The activity we engaged in then was the leaving of tracts, copies of The Bible Students Monthly, at the doors on Sunday morning in the hope that some would read them and seek further knowledge of Gods Word.
OFFERING MYSELF AS A PIONEER
However, this limited activity did not satisfy me, as I wanted to share full time in the service. I was willing, but how could I get started in the colporteur work, as the pioneer work was then called? A way was opened up. On June 1, 1907, a few others and I went to Pittsburgh to hear Brother Russell, the Watch Tower Societys president. I talked to him of my desire to enter the full-time service but said that I felt in need of more knowledge. His reply was, If you want to wait until you know it all you will never get started, but you will learn as you go along. Then he told me of a sister in Ohio who wanted a companion. While waiting to hear from her, arrangements were made for me to stay in Pittsburgh. Here I wasjust a little country girl in a big city! Yet I was mindful of the blessings Jesus foretold for those who offered themselves willingly: Everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life. (Matt. 19:29) I will never forget the encouragement I received and the kindness shown me by the Watch Tower Societys headquarters family.
All arrangements were now made, and I was on my way to Zanesville, Ohio, my first assignment in the pioneer ministry. My prayers were answered, and I could say with the apostle Paul that a large door that led to activity had been opened to me, and through this door I willingly entered.1 Cor. 16:9.
I had never met the sister I was to work with; but when I did, she showed me much kindness and help. Now, through the strength of Jehovah, I was knocking on my first door to explain Bible truth to others. Little did I realize that this would be my privilege for fifty-nine years! What a privilege from Jehovah!
I was now looking forward to my first convention, to be held in Niagara Falls, New York, August 29September 5, 1907. What a thrill it was to be there with so many others of like faith! It was my first opportunity to symbolize my dedication by water baptism. The Watch Tower of October 1, 1907, described that baptism: It was decided to use a lagoon or bye-water off the Niagara River for the water immersion, and hold the service on the bank where the hillside formed a natural amphitheatre. An audience of about 1,500 gathered at the appointed hour, and after an address explanatory of the true baptism and its water symbol, 241 were immersed. What a joyful time that was!
I will always remember that Niagara Falls assembly also for the talk given by Brother J. F. Rutherford, later to become the Watch Tower Societys president. He gave a convention talk on the importance of prayer, and it was especially helpful to me to know that Jehovah always provides the help we need, if we look to him. It certainly was true, as The Watch Tower described that convention: As for spiritual profit and manifestation of the Masters love we cannot imagine how it could have been improved uponbut this was true also of the Indianapolis convention and others. It seems true of our conventions . . . that The last always seems the best. And that has been true with the many other assemblies I have attended.
My next pioneer assignment was in the State of Delaware and along the eastern shore of Maryland, where we found the people very friendly and much literature was placed. Later, in 1914, we went back to work the same territory, during World War I. In a small town in Delaware my companion and I were taken to the office of the Justice of the Peace by a secret service man. The office door was locked and the secret service man asked many questions. We showed them the purpose of our work. Eventually the Justice of the Peace pulled out the fourth volume of the Studies in the Scriptures, entitled The Battle of Armageddon, and said he had read it and found nothing wrong with it. They decided to let us go. We were thankful to Jehovah to continue in the service during those trying times.
The pioneer work has taken me into fifteen states. While working around Williamsport, Pennsylvania, I met Nathan J. Keefer, who was reared in a Christian home. When I met him he was congregation servant of the Williamsport congregation. He was also a member of the Brooklyn Bethel or headquarters family of the Watch Tower Society for several years. In 1928 Nathan and I were married, and then we enjoyed our willing service together.
In 1929 came the financial collapse and depression; banks were closed. During a depression could we make ends meet? We never doubted, knowing that Jehovah was our Provider. It was a joy to bring the good news of the Kingdom to the depressed people in the southern state where we were working. There was very little money to be had. We could often trade a five-cent booklet for a spool of thread. We also traded our Bible literature for soap coupons, vegetables, eggs, chickens, and so forth. One day a chicken got away from us and it struck out for home across a plowed field, but it had to be captured, and it was, as it was needed for a trade-in on gasoline for our car. We pioneered in isolated territory most of the time.
SPECIAL PIONEER PRIVILEGES
In 1939 the door of activity opened still wider. The Watch Tower Society asked Brother Keefer to serve as a zone servant in Virginia and West Virginia. This involved visiting about twenty small congregations in the area. It was a real privilege to work with these friends and we were like a big family. When the zone work ended, we became special pioneers.
Our first assignment as special pioneers was in Harrisonburg, Virginia. A Watchtower study was started with the interested ones, and we celebrated the Memorial of the Lords death with this little group in the spring of 1942.
Our next assignment was Mahanoy City, Pennsylvania, a mining town of many languages. This was the last assignment for Nathan and me together, as he passed away before we finished this assignment. Many times, as we would be leaving friends, he would say, Keep up the good work! I felt he would say the same to me, and this I was willing to do with the help of Jehovah.
In 1943 the Society assigned me to Trenton, New Jersey, with ten other special pioneers. There were about twenty publishers in Trenton at that time; now there are four congregations. I was glad to have a little share in this expansion.
After serving there as a special pioneer for twenty years, with blessings too numerous to recount, my eyesight began to fail due to the development of cataracts; so in 1963 the Society gave me an assignment in my home territory, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
There have been a few problems over the years, but by my sticking close to Jehovahs organization they soon melted away. My one cataract has been removed and the operation was successful. I am still offering myself willingly as long as this door of activity remains open to me. And, while putting Kingdom interests first, I have never lacked any of the necessities of life.
Jehovahs provisions have been so wonderful all down through the years, and the encouraging letters I have received from the Society from time to time have been a great blessing too. My years of pioneering have been full of joy and blessings. In recent months I have had to conserve strength and so now devote most of my ministerial time to making back-calls and conducting home Bible studies. I am presently blessed with some good studies and find great joy in teaching these sheeplike ones Gods truth.
Now, at eighty-three years of age, I have enjoyed fifty-nine years of pioneering. How thankful I am that I offered myself willingly as a pioneer when a young woman and always put Kingdom interests first!

Edited by - Elsewhere on 5 August 2002 13:25:34
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 14 years ago


I think the best line in the whole thing is:
"I was shunned by them in many ways, but no intimidation or fear of man could turn me back"
 
proplog2
proplog2 14 years ago


JW's follow the Christian pattern of being separate from the world yet actively preaching to strangers.
As far as shunning goes. It is an ancient weapon for groups to maintain boundaries. What's bad is when it is used recklessly and without due process. There are some bad asses that need to be kicked out. Congress does this also.
 
metatron
metatron 14 years ago


One, the Amish deal with young people differently. It is expected
that they will go wild for a while (Rumspringa) but likely return
to the faith as adults.
Two, the Amish have sense enough to realize that if you want to
pursue an extreme cultish lifestyle in this world, you need to
build a complete infrastructure of separation. Your own schools,
businesses, etc.
and finally, as to the printed experience, note that like all
Watchtower life experiences, Jesus Christ is not thanked or
even mentioned - as the unimportant figure that he is amoung
Witnesses - unlike "thanking God thru Christ in all things"
as Paul said.
metatron
 
Francois
Francois 14 years ago


In a hundred more years, will stuff like telephones and automobiles be old fashioned enough for the Amish?
Just wondering.
-francois
 
AjaxMan
AjaxMan 14 years ago

At least the Amish really take to heart with regards to not taking part of this world. Look at them, they don't drive cars, they do things differently from the rest of the world. At least they keep their word (IMHO), whereas JWs do not keep their world with regards as not taking part of this world, for instance when the world has something that they can get and use, they take advantage and use it (i.e. cars, computers, airplanes, boats).
 
Bang
Bang 14 years ago


Maybe it was those "wonderful promises".
bang
 
libra_spirit
libra_spirit 14 years ago

I once read a web site written by an ex Amish person. It read very similiar to a lot of EX JW stories only worse. There was corruption among the elders, thier kids got special treatment. Many would get punished when they were innocent, and when someone broke down and went to see a doctor for a life threatening situation they were looked down on as a bad example for the rest of thier lifetime. It sounded like JW life only 10 times worse. They have absolutly no worldy friends for support when they leave the fold. It sounded like a good place to harbor ignorance and Biblical bigotry, as well as Spiritual abuse, and every other kind of abuse. There was adultry, rape, and everything else under the sun that humans do. Only by being so isolsated from the rest of the world they have no frame of reference as to this not being normal.
 
somebody
somebody 14 years ago


I've heard from poeple who grew up amish. I personally think old world menonites way of living is the way I'd love to live. But somehow over the years, rules and punsihment for those disobeying those man-made rules took over even the amish way. When judgment and condemnation start between fellow humans when one or more view themselves as having God given Autority over those equal to themselves,, problems arise. When AMISH or Menonites became a religion, IT became a snare for fellow humans and those humans who joined or followed along with the human "leaders".

peace,
somebody
Edited by - somebody on 5 August 2002 17:54:16
 
Incense_and_Peppermints
Incense_and_Peppermints 14 years ago

i don't know about the amish, but they think mormons are weird and a cult. (well, my witness relatives do anyway). i think it has something to do with wedding night sheets and underwear, seriously. some mormon woman defected and wrote an expose' about it. she was from arizona too... at least the amish give you a year when you come of age to explore... what am i saying? they're ALL whacked.
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago


http://www.geocities.com/Amish2350/Angie.html
Some snippets from the above website (sound familiar?):
Ed, another ex-Amish also mentions how as a child, he spent most of his time doing chores. Unlike other children his age, he could not enjoy playing baseball, fishing, swimming, and other leisurely activities
Yet another fault that ex-Amish find with their culture is the fact that for the most part, they are limited to an eighth grade education. Amish parents reject sending their youth to public high schools because they feel high school would stir aspirations, raise occupational hopes and generally steer youth away from the Amish community
Because of these limitations, Amish youth are unable to fulfill their dreams of furthering their education. A further implication of not being able to obtain higher education is that Amish are relegated to jobs that require manual labor.
Perhaps the most negative aspect about living or being in an Amish community is that every action that an individual makes is scrutinized by the community. People who have left the Amish community say that one reason they leave is because they feel that the Amish are people who are more concerned with rules and telling people how to live their lives than with true spirituality.
Some individuals in Amish communities do not understand why technology cannot be used, feel overworked, deprived of knowledge and opportunities, as well as constrained and criticized. They feel that the Amish way of life is not a spiritual life but rather a way of life that is governed by man-made rules.
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


As you can see Armish are no different than jw ONLY WINDOW DRESSINGS ARE DIFFERENT

http://www.amishabuse.com/
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


NICE PHOTOS

http://www.amishabuse.com/summary_photographs.htm
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 14 years ago


You know when that lady left the Amish comunity she also came to no longer believe her family religion. She forsook the Amish which brought REPROACH on them.
SHE IS AN APOSTATE.
Since jw's hate apostates how come they let her join them?
This religious thing is so confusing. I tried to please them all and none of them appreciated me.
Then I tried only to please the wbts. You know what? They won't let you please them. No matter how hard you work it is not enough!
So I thought I would quit trying to do enough. I would concentrate on getting it right!
You know what! You can't get it right. When one finally accepts a new regulation, a little later they cancel or change it! I couldn't keep up.
So I quit the wbts so they would not have to worry about me any more. You know what? You can't quit! They have to officially kick one out.
You know what? It is not over then either. They tell all my relatives to not talk to me. But they want me back in. If they can't talk to me How do they get me back in?
You know what? When they all quit talking to me it got kind of peaceful.
You know what? I have a friend he is a Frizbaterian. He wants me to come to the park and partake in their worship. They throw frizbies for an hour with their dogs on sunday mornings.
You know what? I think that is a religion I might be able to handle. Then he tells me to be sure to bring a pooper scooper. I gotta think this thing through.
 
Silverleaf
Silverleaf 14 years ago


Interesting story, Elsewhere. What strikes me is this woman was disturbed by the idea of the dead suffering in torment and was happy to discover that was not the 'truth' yet apparently she's not bothered by the idea of 99.9% of the population dying at Armageddon.
Silverleaf
 
larc
larc 14 years ago

JT, thank you for putting up the amish abuse website. Everyone here should take the time to read the entire book that is posted there. The website will show you that things are awful in other religions and other places. Please take the time to read this. You will see how much we have in common with xAmish.
 
Larry
Larry 14 years ago


Thanks for the AmishAbuse.com Website - I can't wait to read about them.
Peace - LL
 
Stealth
Stealth 14 years ago


Beware of the Amish Computer Virus....
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencerreport/amish.html

Edited by - stealth on 5 August 2002 20:3:52
 
chezza
chezza 14 years ago

Interesting topic, my husband has now observed a little of what the jws are like because of my ex and my children, his comment to me is it reminds him of the amish people how they keep seperate and stuff, my comment is that jws are hypocritical in these respect of really keeping seperate from the world, if it was so important then they would have their own communitys and not need to go "out into the world", why would you place children, teenagers in fact into a world where everything glitters and shines and them tell them that they cant have any of it, why not have a jw school, so they are not tempted to do the world ways of the other kids. If they really want to be seperate then maybe they should live like the amish.
 

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JWs and the Amish
by Silverleaf 14 years ago 21 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Trotafox
Trotafox 14 years ago


Outta the fryin' pan and into the fire. She-e-e-sh.
Trot
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 14 years ago


Hello JT;
I went to the site where David Yoder has his book. Got hooked on the darn thing and read it all.
It is a tale of terrible abuse-incest-rape-murder and collusion with the county officers. David Yoder is a real standup guy.
This particular group of extremist Amish make the jw's look tame. The facade that they put up of being this kind, loving, sheltered, group keeping away from the harsh evil world is terrible.
Getting a few months of shunning for murder and not reporting this to the authorities and the authorities going along with the Amish Idea of "we will keep all this within the group" leads to some horrible deeds not being exposed or the correct legal actions taken.
It sure changed my view of Amish. It seems there are other Amish groups that are not this radical and more like jw's. Still I would not want any part of them either.
 

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Topic Summary
this morning's paper had an article on the amish [nothing in depth, just about how they sell their wares at local markets] but it brought to mind the ideas of the amish - they want no part of the world, they don't like to call attention to themselves, don't baptize little children, and they shun those who leave the faith.
i was just wondering if anyone here could shed some light on how jws view the amish.
are they impressed?



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Devil's Playground
by catchthis 12 years ago 13 Replies latest 12 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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catchthis
catchthis 12 years ago


I watched a documentary the other day entitled, Devil's Playground. It centered around a few Amish youths when they reached the age of 16. Once all Amish youths reach this age of maturity, according to their church doctrine, they are let loose for an indefinite period of time to experience the world. This time period, called Rumspringa, can last from just a few months to several years. During this span of time, some Amish youths go all out and experiement with drugs, alcohol, sex, etc. The parents do not interfere with this rite of passage, and some still allow their children to live at home during this rite. As is shown in the film, most parents allow their legally underage children to host massive parties on their property during which copius amounts of alcohol is consumed. Some of these parties can have as many as 1,500 kids come in from states all over.
Something that I was unaware of was that children CANNOT be baptized into the church prior to their 16th birthday. This is also the primary reason for the church's break from Europe centuries ago. The Amish believe that infant baptism is wrong. Only an older, mature person can make a choice to belong to the church. Other things that they believe in include - no wedding rings(the men grow a beard to display that they are married), no official churches to congregate in(they meet in each other's homes every other week on Sundays), and NO centralized Amish "organization," to name just a few.
As we all know, most jw kids will end up leading a double life to please their parents and also to partake in the normal growing up period of their teens. I found it quite interesting that even though Amish parents realize what their children are doing once they begin rumspringa, they do not cast them out or disown them for going against the basic tenets of the church. But rather, they understand that they need to get this out of their system and will make the right choice later on. In the film, most of the teens knew that what they were doing was wrong and that they instinctively knew deep down that they would go to hell if they kept up with their debauchery. The film also states that the church has a 90% retention rate among their children. I wish that the Society would publish what the current rate of retention is within the organization today among youths. I imagine it is not quite as high.
To anyone who hasn't seen this documentary, I would recommend it. It even touches on shunning within the church and when the shunning takes place. I will not divulge anything more on that topic. Looking back though, the one fundamental teaching of their church that I found most mind blowing was allowing their children to experience the "world," or going "English," as they put it. I feel that if the witnesses were to do the same thing with their children, there would not be such a hemorage of youth in the organization today. As it is, jw youths have to hide everything they do which only increases the guilt placed on their consciences. If they were allowed to experience the world in a normal way as other young people do, they would probably see the error of their way and return to the faith. But no. Instead, they are prodded to get baptized at the earliest age possible, suppress their natural urges and desires, and to maintain perfect harmony within the organization selling as many books and magazines as possible.

One more item....during courtship, the two courting are allowed to share a room overnight. Try finding a set of jw parents which will allow THAT to happen.

 
got my forty homey?
got my forty homey? 12 years ago


Hot Damn!
I think got my forty has found a new calling. Open up liquor, porn, and crack store in Strousburg PA.
Note to self--Offer discount rates to jimburga kids!
 
Satanus
Satanus 12 years ago


Rumspringa
That word sounds familiar. In my parents' lingo, it transaltes as 'jumping around'.
SS
 
got my forty homey?
got my forty homey? 12 years ago


Yeah, it sounds like something I do every Friday night!
Rum, springa to the john for a self cleansing of the ol guliver!
 
tink
tink 12 years ago

this is an excellent documentary and i highly recommend it. i think someone started a thread on it a few months back if i remember correctly.
 
gumby
gumby 12 years ago


First of all....welcome to the board catchthis
During this span of time, some Amish youths go all out and experiement with drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.
How can I contact this group and how can I join? Can I join tomarrow? How soon can I start "rump-springing?
Actually It's amazing that after the rumpbumping thingy......that anyone would even want to go back to the amish way of life. I wonder how long they party before coming back? If it were me.....my rumphumping would last at least 20 years
Gumby
 
A Paduan
A Paduan 12 years ago


As it is, jw youths have to hide everything they do which only increases the guilt placed on their consciences. If they were allowed to experience the world in a normal way as other young people do, they would probably see the error of their way and return to the faith.
So you're saying that if they were 'wiser' they'd choose jwism ?


 
Celia
Celia 12 years ago

Rumspringa = sounds like the schwaebish pronunciation of Herum-springen, whcih means something like jumping around.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 12 years ago


I like the idea of banning baptism under the age of 16. This is ,after all, official JW teaching - that infant baptism is wrong.
What we see is an ungodly rush to have early teens baptized. As congs there is a vested interest, in order to achieve "Growth" and another baptized pub. on the record cards. Parents have a "Keeping up with Jones'" pressure if their kid is to be baptized. Youngsters may sincerely at the time want to go through with it.
A wise old P/O that I once served with would actively dissuade young baptisms, He simply pointed out that if the kid made a slip in teenage years they would have to be treated as an adult wrongdoer and maybe d/fd.
In my elder days I hated having to deal with judicial cases where people had simply got baptized too young
 
got my forty homey?
got my forty homey? 12 years ago

I was baptized at 16 and disfellowshipped at 22. and the only reason I was baptized that young was because of pressure from my parents.
 
copsec
copsec 12 years ago

Yes, that was an extremely excellent documentary. Even my husband (who has never belonged to any kind of church and does not care for relifgion in any way, shape or form) found it compelling enough to watch. I think alot more churches would find their youth more likely to stay if they were given a chance to "sow their wild oats" so to speak and find out if the lifestyle is for them or not
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 12 years ago


In my elder days I hated having to deal with judicial cases where people had simply got baptized too young
Yes me too bluesbrother - -I hated it -- my eldest daughter was one of these youngstesr that got baptized too young.
 
Xandria
Xandria 12 years ago


I watched this documentary tonight and it is very good. I see a lot of parallels. The pressures and stresses, etc. They even have shunning and so on.

I found it very interesting and would say to people definately rent it.

X.
 
Huxley
Huxley 12 years ago


I really enjoyed this movie. Lots of JW similarities.

Huxley
 

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Murder with Amish children, great opportunity to convert Christians, right?
by free2beme 9 years ago 13 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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free2beme
free2beme 9 years ago

Last night, I had this misfortune of listening to people in other Christian faiths use the Amish event to promote recruitment of their own Church in faith. I saw ministers on television saying how these Amish people showed the love of Christ, and how these people showed how much people in Christ church were so loving and forgiving. Making a point to mention that the Amish people were forgiving the man who did this. I even saw a minister mention how such love, should draw people to the faith even more in this day and age. Wow! What a wonderful recruitment and encouragement this had been for the Christian faith. It appears this man might have done them a favor, with what he did, to allow them to show how forgiving and loving they really are.
Now, reality! What this man did was terrible. People trying to cash in on this to gain something for their church and religion, is sickening. What should be questioned, is how long is their God going to allow these things to happen and when are they going to see that despite all the love they show after, evil exist and it exist in the world on a random bases that has nothing to do with God controling anything before or after. Why do people not loss faith, thinking "Why would their god allow this?" Why do they not ask logical questions like, "If god was real, why would he need to take the innocent children to show how great and loving his faith is?" If he did allow it, what a sick God.
All I have heard today from the Christian extremist I work with on this, is that part about the Amish man forgiving the family of the man who did this, and the man himself. You know there is a time and place in life to be angry, and not to put on some phoney show of your faith. If something like this happened to my child, I would be angry. In time I may come to terms, and be able to move on, as I went through stages of grief. If I heard someone cashing in on it, to promote a faith. That would make me more angry.
So, was the murder of the Amish children a great opportunity to convert people to Christianity? Seems to be the image that is being shown. Their so loving and forgiving. BLAH!
 
looking_glass
looking_glass 9 years ago

No, I work w/ few who believe in God. And for those that do, they are your routine based religions that require little then showing up on a few special occasions.
I did an internet search on the Amish and what they do for funerals. It reminded me a lot of JWs and what they do. Very simple and not a sad occasion. I thought it was interesting. All I could think of was if the mothers will be allowed to morn fully or if they will be expected to go on with their life because anything other then moving on would appear to be a lack of faith.
 
parakeet
parakeet 9 years ago

***I saw ministers on television saying how these Amish people showed the love of Christ ... ***
I live in the same Pennsylvania county where this atrocity took place. I don't know any Amish personally. That's because the Amish are unfriendly to outsiders (unless you buy their produce or they want to be driven somewhere). They are also undereducated (eighth-grade level) and superstitious. Teenage Amish boys (not girls) are allowed to run wild for a time ("to sow their wild oats") before they settle down into the Amish way of life. As a result of this policy, some local Amish boys and young men have been arrested for a number of drug offenses and other crimes.
The Amish appear very quaint and maintain their farms neatly, but I've never found much to admire in them. But it's still shameful that TV ministers are exploiting this mass murder and the Amish to further their own ends.
 
free2beme
free2beme 9 years ago

My only knowledge of the Amish, myself, is what I read online and the movie Witness with Harrison Ford. Other then that, I do seem to hear about equal negative to positive from people who do know them. I spoke to a man who was Amish once at my work, he had left the faith and was setting up his utilities and wanted someone to explain the need for things like gas, power, electric and phone. He thought there should be some central place that provided these and could not understand the billing thing.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 9 years ago

Why do people not loss faith, thinking "Why would their god allow this?" Why do they not ask logical questions like, "If god was real, why would he need to take the innocent children to show how great and loving his faith is?" If he did allow it, what a sick God.
Because they believe in the gospel =godspell. Trying to make sense out of 56 contradictory books combined into one puts people into a trance.
 
TresHappy
TresHappy 9 years ago

The Amish are a cloistered sort. We went to Lancaster County PA a while back and found the Amish to be very quiet people. They will talk to you if buy their goods; however we're English and part of the world. Those families will not have any pictures of their little girls as they don't have photos of themselves, (it's vain). The movie Witness does a pretty good job of showing what the Amish world is like.
 
blondie
blondie 9 years ago

I saw this woman, Phelps, of that group that has been picketing funerals of soldiers. They were going to picket at the Amish funerals but canceled in exchange for 1 hour time on Mike Gallagher's radio show.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html
Anti-Gay Kansas Church Cancels Protests at Funerals for Slain Amish Girls
Wednesday, October 04, 2006
By Sara Bonisteel


 
The controversial anti-homosexual Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., has canceled its plans to stage a protest at the funerals of the five Amish girls executed in their Pennsylvania school, a church official said Wednesday.
Shirley Phelps-Roper , the daughter of church's pastor, told FOXNews.com the group canceled the protests in exchange for an hour of radio time Thursday on syndicated talk-show host Mike Gallagher's radio program.
"We're not going to any of the Amish funerals — that's the agreement we're making — that we won't go to any of them," Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com.
On Tuesday, the church posted a flyer touting the demonstrations in response to the attendance of Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell , who has spoken out against the church publicly. Both Amish and non-Amish residents of Lancaster County — where the shooting took place — have vowed to not allow any protesters anywhere near the funeral services; Rendell called the church members "insane."
Phelps-Roper, daughter of Rev. Fred Phelps , said the church had planned to cancel the protests if given media time on radio and television as a platform to espouse Westboro's beliefs.
Gallagher said that church officials would have to sign a document making them liable for the airtime if they broke their promise not to demonstrate.
"It's awful for me to give up an hour of my radio show ... but I think it’s worth the sacrifice to keep them away," Gallagher said.
But she defended the church's initial decision to protest at the Amish girls' funerals.
"Those Amish people, everyone is sitting around talking about those poor little girls — blah, blah, blah — they brought the wrath upon themselves," Phelps-Roper said, adding that the Amish "don't serve God, they serve themselves."
On Monday, Charles Carl Roberts IV killed five girls — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — in a rural Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa.
Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Crime Center
Donald Kraybill, a professor of sociology at Elizabethtown College in Lancaster County, Pa., calls the church's plans a publicity stunt.
"I don't think there's any connection between the Amish incident and their agenda. They just want to get in the spotlight," Kraybill said. "It's giving them national attention and it's a cheap and easy and really terrible way to gain some visibility."
The church's latest flyer, posted on its Web site notes these protests will be against Rendell for "slanderous" statements against the church.
Westboro's latest rhetoric is in line with the other beliefs of it's 70 church members, who hold that the deaths of U.S. troops are God's punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality.
The Westboro Baptist Church has made its name demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers killed in the Iraq war. Their controversial and colorful placards proclaim their anti-gay stance with slogans such as "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "America Is Doomed" and "Soldier Fag in Hell."
Before it garnered national attention, the church made its name around Kansas, where 16 years ago, it started protested the funerals of AIDS victims. And while their demonstrations of late have focused on the funerals of U.S. soldiers, Westboro church members have taken their picket signs to the memorials for the 12 Sago miners who perished in January in West Virginia.
Earlier this year, prompted by the church protests, Congress passed a law that banned protesters from military funerals at federal cemeteries. More than a dozen states have passed similar legislation creating protest-free buffer zones around cemeteries during funerals.
Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com in February that the church has a right to protest.
"We are delivering a message," Phelps-Roper said. "God is punishing this nation and he is using the IED [improvised explosive device] as his weapon of choice."
 
free2beme
free2beme 9 years ago

Thanks Blondie, it is even worse then I thought. People are so sick!
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 9 years ago

Rendell called the church members "insane."
 ya think?! (A-holes, every self-righteous one of them)
 
free2beme
free2beme 9 years ago

It seems that in the information age, it opens up a lot of negative, beyond the negative news story that is already being covered. This reminds me, so many times, of sci fi books on the sickening world of to much information and how it leads to a lack of human love for one another.
 
vitty
vitty 9 years ago

"Those Amish people, everyone is sitting around talking about those poor little girls — blah, blah, blah — they brought the wrath upon themselves," Phelps-Roper said, adding that the Amish "don't serve God, they serve themselves
What the hell is wrong with some people...................??????????????
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 9 years ago

The murder of these girls is horrific, but the way this Westboro church is behaving is insane and sick. There really ought to be a crackdown on people like that.
 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 9 years ago

Forgiveness??? What is there to forgive? He was sick, crazy and he did this horrible thing. But he is dead, remember? At least he is not walking around or wasting taxpayer money sitting in a jail awaiting a sensationalist trial.
I can't stand the idea of "turn the other cheek" unless there is some extentuating circumstance like mental illness. There is something unnatural and zombie-like about a turn the other cheek attitude. I don't buy it.

LHG
 
free2beme
free2beme 9 years ago

What made me sick about this forgiveness, is that the girls were not even in body bags yet to be removed and they were making a public display of saying how they forgave the man. So in, look at what he did, and say that.
 

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A visit with my sister
by little witch 13 years ago 5 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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little witch
little witch 13 years ago


My sister recently moved to a big beautiful home in Southern Indiana..
All her neighbors are Amish...
So we are sitting on the front porch, talking, and she tells me about the amish neighbors, and that they stop by and talk all the time...I go, ''what''???? I thought we werent to speak to the amish, that would be rude......Boy was I deluded
About this time, up the road come two amish men, and two girls....
They were dressed in blue, and had on their hats, and the girls followed shortly afterward..They stood at the bottom of the drive, till we said hi, like they were waiting to be invited....real polite, and proper... Now keep in mind, as this story unfolds, I have never in my life talked to an Amish...So I didnt know what to expect...
So my sister says, ""Hi , How are You all''?
So then they all come up....I ditched my ciggarette, and cold beer.....real quick...and sis laughed and said, ""oh, stop that"!!!!
So the boys come up to the porch, and light up pipes...start smoking..so I laughed and said, ""what is good for you is good for me"" lol
Anyway, Sis serves them all iced tea.....and we all sat out on the porch and conversed for at least an hour...They were sooo cool...Humor abounds with them, they all had me laughing so hard....
They were joking my sister about her bright red hair, and said it was ''tomatoe hair'', (both my sis and I dye our hair, mine is black), and they said, sisters, huh??? your hair doesnt match...Lol
And they joked with sis 'bout her red hair, and they could throw tomatoes at her, and make it that red,,,and I go, '' Just remember you all cant get away as quickly''!!! Which made them laugh...
Anyways..... We had a great visit.....
My sister and I had a talk afterwards, about the abuse we suffered, as Jw kids....
She gave me some sound advice, which is to write my step-monster, and get it all out.....Just tell her the truth....and I think she is right...So I will be working on that...I still have to give thought to how to say some very painful things to someone, without being a bitch... What a delicate balance that will be.....I dont wanna bring pain on anyone, no matter how cruel they were to me...
Unfortunatley, she will not leave me alone, and keeps contacting me, in a bad way, meaning, she is married to an elder now, and is trying to pretend that everything is peachy....I feel she is trying to add guilt on me for the abuse...and I cant pretend anymore, that my childhood was a figment of my imagination....Like she wants me too. Over the years, when I have brought it up, she acts all innocent, and unknowing....Like all the slaps, name calling, etc, never happened...She is the one who gave me the name, ''Little Which"". She feels god loves her, cause she didnt utter the ''cuss'' bitch....only substituted, which.....sigh....
Anyways, sorry to ramble on....It was just such a good visit with my sissy..I love her sooo much...she is the only family I have, and has helped me so much....She will gently look at me with her pretty green eyes, and say, ""Look at me"",,,,, ""You didnt do anything wrong""....
I am so glad to have her.........
Sorry for rambling on......Just wanted to share.....
 
little witch
little witch 13 years ago


witch......twice...lol
I will learn to spell......lol
 
Garnet
Garnet 13 years ago


(((little witch))) Dont worry about "rambling on", I do it all the time :smile: It is a way to get things off of your chest. It sounds like you have been to hell and back. I think your sister is right, you should write to your family member and tell them what you need to. You sound like strong person, dont let anyone tear you down. I am here with both ears open and a shoulder to lean on if you need one
I didnt know that about the Amish as well! I thought that they didn't speak to "outsiders". It sounds like they were really cool to talk to! It must be so interesting to meet someone of a different culture like that. They also sound very sweet and sincere...did you get that impression from them as well? Just curious, does your sis live in PA? (DUR...just realized you already mentioned where she lives)
With Love
Garnet
 
jgnat
jgnat 13 years ago


A word about healing letters, you don't always have to send them. The healing part is writing it down. Sometimes sending the letter does more damage than good. Do you really want your abuser trashing your heart-felt sentiment yet again? Anyways, it is your call, after you finish writing it, whether you have to send it or not.
You might, as an alternative, write it all down and have a burning ceremony. Also very healing.
 
little witch
little witch 13 years ago


Thanx, Garnet..
Yes they were just so sincere, I was shocked... I told them all I thought they werent supposed to talk to outsiders, ""english''....My husband ask them all kind of questions, and they patiently answered each one..
Then sis told them we were raised JW, and they said that the jw church, is just down the road, and that they come to their doors...lol.....
I think that is what got the ''tomatoe thing'' going...LOL
They were great.....really....very educational...we all had such a good time...I didnt feel they held me in contempt, or what not..They were so very friendly..
Any ways. Thanks for your kind words, Garnet...I appreciate it...
 
little witch
little witch 13 years ago


Jgnat,
Thanks...
Thats what my sister told me too!!!!
She said, not to worry about if it gets to her, but it is theraputic, just to put it down.....That the important thing was, to just get it out..
A burning ceremony,,,,yes....very possible....
Thanks, babe..
 

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The Amish will inherit the Earth
by fade_away 5 years ago 4 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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fade_away
fade_away 5 years ago

So their belief is basically that soon they will all be Amish and revert back to a 16th century lifestyle. Even though they will be able to use 100% of their brain, there will be no technology, just milking cows and eating vegetables and raising barns. The Watch Tower even hired Weird Al to make a video depicting what it will be like.  (ok not really, but this is exactly what they think it'll be like.)

We'll all be Amish living in an Amish Paradise



 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 5 years ago

Not this Amish guy.
Willard Yoder bad Amish
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/amish-sexter-buggy-sex-549028
 
Joey Jo-Jo
Joey Jo-Jo 5 years ago

Interesting things about the Amish, they also shun ex-members and they use only use a german bible that only members who can read it use.
 
MrFreeze
MrFreeze 5 years ago

The Amish are a weird breed....
 
unshackled
unshackled 5 years ago

Even though they will be able to use 100% of their brain, there will be no technology, just milking cows



 

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Do Jehovah's Witnesses crave an 'Amish Paradise'?
by Gill 9 years ago 28 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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Gill
Gill 9 years ago

From as long as I remember the Watchtower Society has painted an idyllic rural scene for their future existence on the planet earth, free from the non Jehovah servers that live now.
My mother regularly talks about her 'little donkey and cart' that she's going to own in the 'New System of things'.
So do the Jehovah's Witnesses dream of living in an 'Amish Paradise' minus the Amish, of course?
Do they have any idea what kind of nightmare existence that entails, especially adding on top of that five meetings a week, continuing FS, studying etc?
 
Crumpet
Crumpet 9 years ago

I'm not sure - i do remember I used to think how was I going to survive forever without a television - it filled me with morbid dread.
 
Gill
Gill 9 years ago

Hi Crumpet! Yes! I agree! Imagine No Television. Even if there was TV does it bear thinking about the kind of programmes the WTBTS would be producing!?
Regular reruns of the crappy videos and perhaps, joy of joys, film releases of the Dramas from the District Conventions!
Shoot me now!
 
crazyblondeb
crazyblondeb 9 years ago

That would mean they would have to do alot of physical work, which I don't see them doing. I think they think their little gardens, and playing with the animals is gonna be enough. Oh, and picking fruit off trees.
Who's going to make the plastic for all that lawn furniture, and balls that we see in the mags?? What about all the awful clothes that they are pictured with? Not to mention, all the "cleaning" that will need to be done from the "destruction".
 
nelly136
nelly136 9 years ago

i used to dream of having lots of horses, it never occurred to me that one end bites the other end kicks and i know jack shit about taking care of one let alone a field full.
if armageddon is sooo close why havn't they been running survival training for the last century to prepare? i knew a lot of window cleaners as a dub but i didnt know many gardeners/farmers.
at least they'll be able to quick build..... can pop round to jewsons and do a bit o looting.
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 9 years ago

I don't think that they've really thought that one through...
I remember seeing programs on the telly where they put this family in a situation where they are living like folks did 100 years ago. The folks had to learn all sorts of 'new skills' in order to compensate for the lack of what we have today.
As for the Amish - I recently visited friends in Missouri - and there is an Amish community nearby that we got to go to. They had a grocery store where I bought some items from.
The Amish do not use modern amenities that we take for granted. Electricity, piped-in water, sewer systems, etc.
Imagine not having a light switch that you can flip on and have 'instant' light. They still use kerosene lamps. They still use horse-drawn buggies.
Lots of manual labor involved in their daily lives. While it may sound romantic... that only lasts for 5 minutes - then the stark reality sets in that the day is going to be filled with more work than you've seen in a long time.
Nope. THE JW's haven't thought that one through. Not at all.
Regards,
Jim TX
 
Gill
Gill 9 years ago

Perhaps it wouldn't take long for there to be a second rebellion in Paradise!
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 9 years ago

The men are always doing "barn-raisings" - building wooden houses (and Kingdom Halls!) - in those pics of paradise. Who operates the sawmills that make those fresh timber planks? And do they have any idea how hard it is to make the panes of glass that all those houses (Halls) seem to sport?
 
CaptainSchmideo
CaptainSchmideo 9 years ago


I'm not sure - i do remember I used to think how was I going to survive forever without a television - it filled me with morbid dread.
"There is no television in Heaven. (There is, however, television in Hell!)." - Matt Groening
 
pobthespazz
pobthespazz 9 years ago

Sounds stupid , but my vision of paradise was owning an inter galatic burger bar
 
blondie
blondie 9 years ago

I don't think a JW who has actually observed an Amish culture closely would want it.
Mention having to wash clothes the old-fashioned way without electricity to a woman.
Or taking a buggy to a meeting on a bitter cold day or a rainstorm.
The JWs I know want their flush toilets, electric lights and all the amenities driven by electricity, gasoline to power their travels.
Blondie
 
kittyeatzjdubs
kittyeatzjdubs 9 years ago

And do they have any idea how hard it is to make the panes of glass that all those houses (Halls) seem to sport?
'Hovah's gonna make trees that sprout glass planes. DUH! jeez....it's so obvious.

~luv, jojo
 
reneeisorym
reneeisorym 9 years ago

I went to see Amish country in PA just 2 months ago and that's all I could think about was how that this is what JWs want...

I would rather take a forever dirt nap.
 
I quit!
I quit! 9 years ago

The Worst Jobs in HistoryAnyone see this series on TV or read the book? I think this is gives us a pretty good idea of what it would really be like in a Watchtower. paradise. Who would they asign to do these jobs? I'd also rather have the "dirt nap".
 
daniel-p
daniel-p 9 years ago

This was a big issue for me. When I was younger, I always had in mind an "Amish paradise" as the new system, really a decentralized agrarian society. Really, this is the only type of society which would be realistic under the JW constraints of their own "new system," since it allows everyone to struggle along at the same level, relatively speaking. But then I started thinking about cities and their socioeconomic structure and studying the nature of economes (eventually getting me into my current major here at college) and realized it would be impossible to not have an economic system, because human economy is as natural as nature's ecology. In fact, it is, in essence, human ecology. The JW new system can't account for the division of labor and an agrarian society to equal degrees. Society would gravitate to villages and cities, leaving some stragglers behind, just like what happened 150 years ago, simply because we have all the knowledge to make our lives infinitely easier, and human nature would take advantage of that - regardless of any ideals of an "Amish paradise."
Another problem of having billions of people living in a decentralized, agrarian society, spread out over the landscape, each eeking out their own subsistence without thinking about the regional and global effects of their resource use, is environmental degradation. Just look at Rwanda, Malawi, or Haiti in particular, to see the devestating effects of deforestation for mere fuel, much less the pressure on simply having enough land to grow food for your family. Rwanda was at one time one of the most densely populated countries in the world - and they were largely an agrarian society. Now throw in the added complication of population growth without a ~1% death rate and you have a few problems.
 
hillbilly
hillbilly 9 years ago

As much as they would like to deny it the WT membership mirrors the demographic they live in. A few years back, many JW's were carpenters, mechanics, grew gardens and lived in rural areas...plus that generation had lived out the major wars and depressions... folks that could live 'without'. Society as a whole was inventive and hardworking... people who could find industious solutions to production of goods and services.
That bunch may have been able to to cut it in the agrarian "New World". Today's third, fourth and fith generation JW's are pretty urban. A look at most KH kids shows me a kid who may be able to handle a mall job..not many tough, fingernail's-in-the-dirt types seem to be around the Kingdom Halls in the western world. In my opinion, most would fold like a cheap tent if they had to work a hard week on a ranch or farm..much less learn a trade or improvise a mechanical solution to most problems.
The growth areas today, like Africa... those folks may be buying the New Earth. But for the Third world I imagine that myth is a move up and something to look forward to.
~Hill
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 9 years ago

Becareful of what you wish for, dubbies...you might just get it. And then you might long for the days when you could gas up your car and go anywhere. And then you'd have to be stoned for longing the things in the past.
 
Gill
Gill 9 years ago

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7428487200380416428&q=Amish+paradise&hl=en

Is this the kind of 'Paradise' they aim for?
 
bebu
bebu 9 years ago

You mean THIS?

bebu
LOL gill, I think we cross-posted.
 
Gill
Gill 9 years ago

bebu!! SNAP!!
Great minds think alike!!!!
 

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Do Jehovah's Witnesses crave an 'Amish Paradise'?
by Gill 9 years ago 28 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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*jeremiah*
*jeremiah* 9 years ago

Will Jehovah create a Starbucks in the New World?
 
hillbilly
hillbilly 9 years ago

Will Jehovah create a Starbucks in the New World?
<g> point made...
~Hill
 
ttbeachbum
ttbeachbum 9 years ago

After I left, I 'craved' simplicity. My pet coined phrase was I want peace of mind, I think I was searching for balance. As many posted, it is a very labor intense way of life that many would not adjust to.
 
Sassy
Sassy 9 years ago

I have lived in northern Indiana in a small very Amish and Mennonite (sp?) community.. I was a JW at the time so I also called on many of them out in service...
they really live a different life than the dubs do..
 
jayhawk1
jayhawk1 9 years ago

Who's going to make the plastic for all that lawn furniture, and balls that we see in the mags?? What about all the awful clothes that they are pictured with? Not to mention, all the "cleaning" that will need to be done from the "destruction".
I thought that is what the Angels was created for. Or maybe that's what the 144,000 will be doing. Heh, they just thought they was getting a cushy job in heaven. Wouldn't that have been a twist of fate!
 
joe_black
joe_black 9 years ago

I would say that 99.9 percent of JW's couldn't handle the Amish way of life. 2 weeks into their "Amish Paradise" they'll be crying out for the "old system" and all the amenities this wicked world provides,......PS. most wouldn't be able to balance a fruit basket on their head anyways, lol.
 
new boy
new boy 9 years ago

If you ask them...............about it,........... they really all have a different idea on what it will be like.
What they want is each and everyone to have their own concept of of what paradice is to them.
Everbodys "pie in the sky when you die"---------------You fill in the blanks
Religions have been trying to sale this "happiness not now.......... but in the future thing"----------For 1,000s of years.
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 9 years ago

I've been watching the Canadian TV show How It's Made lately, and getting my youngest to watch it too. It's amazing how much infrastructure, technology and energy goes into some of the simplest stuff we take for granted, eg. bottles of milk and sliced bread. I get the youngest to watch it so that he realises just how much the modern lifestyle he enjoys is tied into our industrial/technological present reality. That "smaller" and "simpler" wouldn't necessarily be "better".
The division of labour was mentioned before. And that would of necessity happen. Dubs growing wheat would want bread, and someone would probably have to specialise as a miller, to grind the flour. Someone would have to tame the tigers and wolves, and such a job wouldn't leave much time for farming.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

If they crave an Amish paradise they should be writing their watchtowers with a feather quills and homemade ink. They should also be doing there door to door work in horse and buggy. Ever notice there drawings of paradise. Whenever there's a beautiful chalet in the hillside they neglect to show the lumberyards, glass factories electrical component manufacturing co.'s and trucks that transport the raw materials and finished products to their destinations. Must be a lot of pollution in paradise.
 

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Topic Summary
from as long as i remember the watchtower society has painted an idyllic rural scene for their future existence on the planet earth, free from the non jehovah servers that live now.. my mother regularly talks about her 'little donkey and cart' that she's going to own in the 'new system of things'.. so do the jehovah's witnesses dream of living in an 'amish paradise' minus the amish, of course?.
do they have any idea what kind of nightmare existence that entails, especially adding on top of that five meetings a week, continuing fs, studying etc?.



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The Amish
by James_Slash 6 years ago 33 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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James_Slash
James_Slash 6 years ago

I watched an interesting programme last night on the Amish religion. I remember watching the film "Witness" many years ago with Harrison Ford so I already had an insight into what sort of people they were.
They seem a peaceful, family/community orientated group who stick to the teachings in the Bible like glue. When Jesus spoke about 'being separate from the world' surely no-one could have followed this more than the Amish. They have never 'moved with the times' and so their simple lifestyle fits the Bible to a tee.
They only mix within their own community, marry within their own community, work within their own community. They do not possess phones, internet, television, radio and everything they do is for the glory of God.
What are everyones thoughts on these people? Are they moral, upstanding members of society who believe in true Christian values to the letter, or are they brainwashed mentalists who are trapped inside a community of power hungry religious leaders who hold more of a grip over them than the JWs?
Thoughts?
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

who stick to the teachings in the Bible like glue
Only as much as the WT does. Have a look at what their apostates have to say about that.
See if you can find a video called Trouble in Amish Paradise. It's a very interesting watch for ex JWs.

Chris
 
James_Slash
James_Slash 6 years ago

Cheers Chris. Will have a look for that.
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 6 years ago

Amish 'shun' their own family who leave the religion - just like the JWs.
But you are correct on one point. They seem to have less to do with the 'world' than the JWs. They are basically another cult.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

Try Googling Amish puppy mills too
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

They are, much like any other insular group, contolled heavily. I have great general respect for the Amish families I have known over time, and those I have worked with here.
They are good people, but they make it difficult sometimes for those who exit the faith, though from those whom I have known of who did so, it is not nearly as cruel in the main as Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course part of that is that those who leave generally join the 'english' on the outside, so those that remain have little opportunity to just run into past associates who have left.
It is not a paradise in many ways I assume. But the lifestyle has always been appealing to me, if one could find a similar community without the god-belief as center.
Jeff
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

I'm not sure which scriptures ban having a telephone and electricity in the house, but the Amish are welcome to post it here for us.

Cheers
Chris
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

They are a really nice family and I would love to have them for neighbours, but I won't be signing up.
http://www.troubleinamishparadise.com/home.html
 
MMXIV
MMXIV 6 years ago

I saw some of the programme. To some it might seem an idyllic way of life for a summer holiday but I just saw control, repression and a religion very hard to exit. Saying that I've a great deal of respect for them - if the whole world was Amish - it'd be a far greener world.
MMXIV
 
Scully
Scully 6 years ago

There was a WT or Awake article a while back about someone who left the Amish or Mennonites to become JWs. It was surreal how they described shunning as practiced by the Amish and Mennonites as cruel and unloving.
 
blondie
blondie 6 years ago

Electricity is allowed in the barn but not the house...so men can make their work easier but not women...hmmm
What though is the difference when someone raised Amish goes out on rumspringen (sp) as a young person and does not commit to their religion and if they do commit and then leave?
Don't form opinions about the Amish based on some individuals you know or what you have "heard." We know that non-jws have some erroneous ideas based on that kind of info about jws and the WTS.
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

Many Amish had good paying jobs($50-80,000/yr) in the RV/motorhome plants around South Bend Indiana, until the crash of 2008. The RV companies loved the Amish- hard workers and they would never sign for a union. So many Amish lost their jobs that the church had to OK for them to, sign up for unemployment. They had never allowed that to happen before.
 
Heaven
Heaven 6 years ago

All religion is man-made. I am uninterested in anything that wants to suppress or oppress me. Anything can be made to look idyllic. If it sounds or looks too good to be true, it usually is.
 
WingCommander
WingCommander 6 years ago

I think it's time to give everyone a little wake-up call on the "Amish" lifestyle. I live in work in an Amish Paradise - Lancaster County, PA. I work for a contractor and design alot of dining establishments, markets, stores, etc that the Amish own. The days of the Amish living like in the movie "Witness" are LONG gone. That way of life died over 10 years ago, and it'll never come back. They are much more modernized than most of you could believe.
Let me tell you all something, that goody-goody facade that they put on it is just that - a FACADE, a lie, just like the JW ubber-nice guy in a business suit smiling at you at the door.
Allow me to explain. The Elders of the congregations live like freakin KINGS, with lavish homes that would make your mouth drop in awe. Imagine walking into a large Amish Elder's house who has many, many children, and seeing a few small ones watching a movie on a portable DVD player? How about having an Elder pull a cell phone out of his pocket and show you a picture of the deer he bagged during hunting season? I can, because I've experienced this and MORE. Did you know they now own CARS and VANS, and pay people to drive them around? I've even seen Amish Elders with FULL electric in their homes, not just a phone shack out in the barn. They live like Kings, while they forbid such luxuries from their flocks. Sound familiar?? The hypocrisy and legalistic OverLording is incredible, but all the "World" sees is the women in simple clothing and the little kids with their hats. Most of the Amish are now getting together to create huge Amish Markets, and money is no object in designing these places, only the best for them. They now have bank accounts, accept credit cards, etc. Of course, most cash transactions are kept from the IRS, most of that is kept for themselves under the table.
They are also incredibly cheap b*sturds. They expect you to sell them equipment at cost and sometimes gawk at prices. They come back once they figure out you're in line or cheaper then your competition. Also, because they consider themselves to be "no part of this world" they try and circumvent all state and local building codes whenever they can. They just don't give a crap, period. They want it big, lavish, and CHEAP, and they want it NOW. They don't care about permit drawings and fire protection on hoods above gas griddles. It's Greek to them.
I once saw a female building/health inspector walk onto a large, new Amish Market. This was last year. Stuff wasn't being installed by the Amish workers according to the plans she had in her hand, and she saw several other violations. At first, she tried talking to these guys and letting them know what was wrong. Of course, the typical Amish male is a backwards chouvanist pig, and thinks women are beneath them and to not be heard. Well, she made herself heard when she shut down the entire work site until all the problems were corrected. The Amish learned damned quick to respect her the next time she walked on site to re-evaluate!!!
I could go on and on. Hell, I didn't even touch on the aspect of the SHUNNING they practice, which is every bit as harsh and un-Christian as what the JW's practice.
The Amish aren't some cute little sect, they are a full blown CULT, harmful, backwards, and half evil if you ever had to deal with the Elders especially. Freakin modern day Pharisees. If JW's ever went "plain" they'd fit right in around here. Matter of fact, I can imagine the JW's Paradise Earth being an exact duplicate of how the Amish live today. Rank and file work their azzes off, while the Elder's run their big businesses and live like OverLords out over everyone else. No thanks!!!!
- Wing Commander
 
frigginconfused
frigginconfused 6 years ago

I think youre right about the amish. They live closer to the bible than the Jw's in the aspect of being no part of the world. The only problem is they are "stabbing themselves with many pains". They dont need to be so damned hardcore to live that kind of life. The modern homesteaders are living like amish but are youthfull and funloving.
I wish I could start a community similar to the amish but be more loving and tolerant. Thats the best way to preach the good news. Lead by example. Show how a community can live without modern commercialism.
Guess Im just too much of a neo-hippie.
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

The Amish who lost their high pay RV jobs were all crying- no more expensive vacations riding in hired vans, no more eating out 3x a week, yes, they all have cell phones- w/internet- they have ways to do that and stay in the letter of the law. They even hired the cleaning woman to clean their house. Many of these Amish finally admitted the truth and opened switched to being Mennonites- got a drivers license and lived a normal life. There was some mention about taking a lot of heat from their Amish family, but it was either do that and be self supporting or ask the community to support them- there were so many Amish laid off, that they just looked the other way. I think a crack was made in northern Indiana in their strict shunning rules.
 
dgp
dgp 6 years ago

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
 
Out at Last!
Out at Last! 6 years ago

Wing Commander nailed it, you have to know them to see how it really is. I used to work for a guy who raised horses and mules and sometimes sold to the Amish. They would bargin down to the absolite lowest price when they bought one. They would work it as long and as hard as they could for a month and feed it nothing but grass/ hay. These animals can not survive on grass if they are working animals, they need grains, wheat, corn, barley, ect. After a month they would call back and say this horse/ mule is no good, it has no power, it can't work. They want to trade for another, no extra money, just a fresh animal that they can do the same thing to and call in another month and trade it. In my opinion they are as bad or woses than JW's. They have NO formal education, and are extremely abusive to their animals.It takes more than a TV show to know something about a group of people.
 
WingCommander
WingCommander 6 years ago

TO: Out at Last! ^^^^^
Yes, I've heard of exactly what you describe. They treat their "work" horses very shabily, but the horses that draw their buggys eat good? How's that for weird? All appearances. Don't get me started on their puppy mills around here, BRUTAL!!!
Education? What's that? As long as they know enough math in order to count their MONEY, they are satisfied. Auck, we don't needs no more edumakation den dat!!!
Yeah, what people see on TV is truly scratching the surface, kind of like seeing a little JW boy dressed up out in service and going, "ohhh, isn't he cute????" When is reality it's sick, Sick, SICK!!!!
- Wing Commander
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

Electricity is allowed in the barn but not the house...so men can make their work easier but not women...hmmm
That depends on the area perhaps. Northern Indiana has several hundred thousand Amish, but I have never seen an electric line to barn or house. In fact, I have spent some time in Amish barns here, and watched them do all their work with hand tools, milking by hand, etc. I have seen them work with electric equipment in factories, but never in their own buildings. I think districts are controlled by the local Bishops. In our area, for example, they were previously never allowed to use gasoline mowers for their grass. Nowadays they have all gone to modern mowing devices instead of the old rotary bladed manual push models they used to have.
Some things have gotten easier for the women too - gasoline powered refrigeration is allowed, and in some cases gasoline powered washing equipment is common here. Men still spend 12 hours in the blazing heat behind workhorses to plow fields like they used to do in 1700. I would not suggest that men have a particularly easier life than women within that culture. Both are hard working people as far as my experience has shown.
That said: they do follow what they believe to be biblical laws and ideas. Many old-time religious groups took an elevated view of man over woman, but I don't see it in the extreme in my relatively frequent contact with them. But there is clearly a class distinction there - man and women are not equals in their eyes. I expect that will not change for a long time in the secluded communities of the Amish.
Just my 2 cents.
Jeff
 

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The Amish
by James_Slash 6 years ago 33 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

In all the years I have known the Amish - I have never seen them underfeed, or mistreat any animals in their care. The workhorses here are well fed openly, and well groomed.
Jeff
 
THE GLADIATOR
THE GLADIATOR 6 years ago

AK - Jeff Hi Tiger! I can understand why animals being well fed would be important to you.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

Stereotyping is often unfair.
Jeff
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

Hi Glad. LOL
 
miseryloveselders
miseryloveselders 6 years ago

A good documentary to check out is The Devil's Playground. It's about that window of time Amish youth are given to live life without typical Amish boundaries, and regardless of their actions they won't get kicked out of the community or shunned. At a certain point they have to make a decision as to what life they are going to live, within the Amish community or as an outsider. It's a pretty fascinating and graphic documentary. Opened my eyes up on em. They're pretty much like any other group of people on this planet.
 
blondie
blondie 6 years ago

I was wondering, there have been several child abuse cases amongst the Amish; do their religious leaders report them to the non-Amish authorities?
 
StAnn
StAnn 6 years ago

There are a bunch of Amish just west of me, one county west, actually. I agree with AK Jeff, around here they are much more primitive re: lifestyle. But a lot of them moved here because farmland was cheaper here than in PA and NE Ohio and they're pursuing a real rural life, so maybe attitude has a lot to do with how strictly they follow the rules.
We also have here the Old Order German Baptists, another Mennonite sect. Not as primitive as the Amish but very similar.
I've found that people are people no matter their religion. In legalistic religions, like the Amish or the JWs, people find ways to circumvent the rules when it suits them so that they can have what they want. People can dress as quaintly as they wish but, underneath, they're still people with the same tendencies as the rest of us.
As someone else stated above, there are a lot of homesteading families that pursue the "back to the land" lifestyle and raise their families in a close knit, loving atmosphere but don't wear different clothing. I find that a lot more appealing than a group like the Amish. DH and I have actually considered buying a farm of our own and pursuing a more primitive lifestyle but we're working on having an "urban homestead" at the moment. Having three disabled people in the family makes it harder to live without the modern conveniences.
And to the poster who complained about how cheap the Amish are: yep, if you want to live a "simple" lifestyle, you have to be frugal. Very frugal. I actually talk with the Amish and the Old Order folks just to share tips on frugality. I personally enjoy it but I don't rip people off. For instance, when I go to yard sales, I rarely haggle. If we go out to eat, I don't lie about my kids' ages to get kids' meals (they are small for their age). And we have our own divided plastic plates and things to take to picnics so that we don't have to buy paper goods. I think the only paper goods I buy, other than toilet paper, are napkins. If I didn't already do so much laundry (5 loads a day), I'd use cloth napkins too. All of these things add up.
So to AK Jeff, I think, who said he'd like the lifestyle without the religious overtones, you can pursue urban homesteading where you are or homesteading if you want to go even more into it. It starts out as a mindset and turns into a lifestyle. You don't have to have any religion in it.
But I'm not giving up my air conditioning. Had enough of that when I was a kid.
 
St George of England
St George of England 6 years ago

Reminded me too much of JW's in so many aspects.





George
 
diana netherton
diana netherton 6 years ago

I have lived in Lancaster County for ten years and have gotten quite familiar with the Amish
and their ways. I have varying views on them, both positive and somewhat negative and sometimes
just downright confusing.

Let's start with the horse and buggy. Older order Amish are not allowed to drive, however,
they can own a car. They hire a driver. Or they'll take a taxi. Kind of like saying you can't have a beer
in your house but you can at a bar. Also, their buggies' wheels are made of steel and they tear up
the roads something fierce. Not to mention being stuck behind them, especially on Sundays. And their
horses leave big piles of mess everywhere which I'm always dodging when I'm out for a bike ride. I've
also seen them treat their horses very inhumanely. Last summer I saw one horse frothing at the mouth
while the buggy driver was whipping it to go on. The horse fell over. They're not all like that, I'm sure, but
I've seen my fair share. Plus puppy mills were mentioned and they're quite common among the Amish out
here.

Electricity... anywhere but the house. Phones. Most of them own cell phones. I see them talking on them
quite frequently. I'm not fooled one bit about their keepint totally separate. It's impossible really.

Child abuse. I work in the legal system at the courthouse and it really is a HUGE problem in the community.
Like the JWs they tend to deal with in "in house." Most of it doesn't get reported. Megan's Law website has
several Amish men listed as perps in this area alone. One lives down the road from me.

It's really pretty much like the JW religion only JWs shower every day, have no facial hair, and actually drive the cars.
These are my mixed feelings on the Amish.....
 
undercover
undercover 6 years ago

These are my mixed feelings on the Amish.....
I admire their work ethic and their sense of family and community... or at least the sense of those things that seem to be publicized in a good way about them.
I have seen/read things about child labor issues and problems with their youth. I found some things troubling. Things that could be avoided if the community was more open and more open minded. I got the impression that many youth are trapped. If they leave, they have no support, no family, etc. Much like anyone who leaves the JWs, except maybe worse sense they are not only mentally 'no part of the world' but physically as well.
But I've always felt kinda sorry for them to a point also because I could see that they physcially represented where I was mentally on one time. Living backwards in a forward thinking time and place.
They do have a particularly unique issue to deal with that most JWs will never face: tourists and rubberneckers. JWs live among us and work with us and live in our neighborhoods (And on this board, most of us have JW family/spouses). We could be around a JW and never really realize it unless they told us.
The Amish though, they do stand out. They took the 'no part of the world' thing literally. And because they do, they've become a tourist attraction. And that's not right. I visited friends in PA back when I was still a JW and they took us up to Lancaster and we saw all the Amish farms and houses and shoolhouses. We saw them in traffic in their horse and buggies. We saw their simple clothes, the men with untrimmed beards and flat brimmed hats. The women in their plain dresses and aprons and caps. What a surreal experience to be a JW (one cult member) driving around staring and pointing at Amish (another cult member). I was embarrassed for them and embarrassed that I was in a car full of gawkers.
 
Out at Last!
Out at Last! 6 years ago

My father drives one of their vans taking two different construction crews to different housing developments. I also did some plumbing work on new homes where the Amish were the framing contractors. They can not have electric in their homes, but when building homes they use all electric power tools/compressors run by a generator. Also an Amish family bought a farm across the road from where I was raised and they tore all the wiring out of the house and barn, but use a generator and electric pump for water. I don't know what difference they see in electric from a pole is wrong, but electric from a generator is ok. I don't get it, but they will use electric tools and appliances, and every one of them have cell phones. Where/ how do they charge them if they don'y use electric?
I also agree with St Ann, People are people no matter what title they have. There are good and bad in any group of people, and certain groups in certain localities may differ form others in other localities. As AK Jeff said that the ones he has watched feed their livestock well, while I have experienced the exact opposite. I was not saying that all the Amish are like the ones that I described in my earlier post, but just what I personally saw and experienced.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 6 years ago

marry within their own community,
"My mom and dad are first cousins, that's why I look so much like myself." Something my brother in law used to say for laughs. Try it sometime, it takes people longer than a second to register that you're kidding.
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 6 years ago

Although they take the "no part of the world" to extremes more than the jws, the Amish I know are much more forgiving. When a young woman gets pregnant before marriage, which is common, the couple asks the church for forgiveness, and the members always vote yes. This is true even if the couple decides not to get married. But they are a closed society, so who knows what kind of abuses go on?
 
SweetBabyCheezits
SweetBabyCheezits 6 years ago

No personal experience here, though I did see Witness. The Amish provide a good example to use when talking to JW family.
JW: "Jesus said his followers would be known by the love they have among themselves. The could be identified by their 'good fruits'."
SBC: "JWs aren't the only ones who display love for their own, though, are they? Mormons, Amish, and others are recognized for their close-knit families and communities... as much if not more so than Witnesses. Why are they not God's people?"
JW: "Well who else fulfills the commission at Matt. 24:14 to preach the good news in all the earth? Who is KNOWN for that work?"
SBC: "You mean a very literal, self-fulfilling understanding of that verse? Of course, JWs believe they do. But Amish might ask the same question about John 17:16 where he said that his followers would be 'no part of this world', right? They are KNOWN for that and truly believe they fit the description perfectly by taking it to a literal extreme."
Of course, in using this reasoning, I've yet to break any barriers with family so maybe it's only effective in my head.
 

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Topic Summary
i watched an interesting programme last night on the amish religion.
i remember watching the film "witness" many years ago with harrison ford so i already had an insight into what sort of people they were.. they seem a peaceful, family/community orientated group who stick to the teachings in the bible like glue.
when jesus spoke about 'being separate from the world' surely no-one could have followed this more than the amish.



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A is for Amish
by heathen 13 years ago 22 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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heathen
heathen 13 years ago

anyone here ever been a practicing amish ? I always wondered what life was like in the amish community.Any help would be appreciated.I did see the witness movie with harrison ford and thought it was a good movie ,but was it in anyway realistic? Inquiring minds wanna know.
 
DJ
DJ 13 years ago


Hi Heathen,
What do you want to do....join the Amish? lol I live in PA and just a few miles from away from me is Amish Country aka Pennsylvania Dutch. They are in Lancaster, PA to be exact. I know that they practice shunning and have required dress standards which are very outdated to give the 'appearance of modesty.' I see the dress code as back firing in a way because they look like they look like they are dressed up for Halloween as the wild west or something. The men all seem to have these big beards. In a farmer's market nearby, they sell produce and meats and services, etc. The customers are us "heathens". They seem rather stand-off-ish with yes or no answers when spoken to. They are not supposed to have electric in their homes and do not drive cars, they have horse drawn buggies which are a real nuisance on the roads. I've always wondered why it is ok to use the refrigeration and electric lights to sell their products if they are opposed to electricity?? There is a lot of info about them on the web. Hope this helps. dj
 
Valis
Valis 13 years ago


That's funny DJ...I can just see heathen as one Amish of the Amish...he might stick out like a sore thumb at the next Apostafest though...*LOL*
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

Thanks for the info DJ, yes that does sound strange if they can't have electricity at home how come they are alright in town ?How about public preaching work ? Do they ever feel compelled to try and convert others? From what I understand they have their women make their clothing but exactly where they get materials and such I don't know ,I assume they barter with wholesalers or something ? I also saw something on barn raising that they do this as a community project much like the jw, so it would seem we have another religion that uses volunteer labor.Stuff like fundamental beliefs and oddities or how the public reacts to their presence is a good start . Valis - If I find a second hand thrift store with some Amish clothing I will buy it and be sure to grow the beard without the mustache ,just to see the look on everyones face at the Afest .lol And yeah what's the deal with no mustache?[:?]
 
Valis
Valis 13 years ago


For heathen...I can't wait for you to pull up and park your buggy in the back yard...I'll have to make sure to get some feed and hay for the horses..although I won't be able to let you drink and drive the buggy after too much spiritual food...eheheh *LOL*
Here's a good start for your Amish investigation..

Sincerely,
District Overbeer
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

ROTFLMAO @ valis. I would love to have a horse and buggy actually.Those guys that work the west end probly make a fortune .Also chicks dig horses ,forget the farrari and porche ,get the horse and buggy thing going .Sometime you're going to have to show me how to get that window in the window thing working.
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 13 years ago


I'm not amish, LOL I wouldn't mind having a horse and buggy myself but only the rich folk around here have those aminities.

I wanted to tell you I got your mail but when I tried to return a message it was intercepted by the postal admin (or demon) and kicked back.
Weird.

Plum
 
larc
larc 13 years ago


Also go to: www.amishabuse.com
You will learn a lot about the amish live in the first half in this on line book, and you will learn about their abuse problems in the second half. There are twenty five chapters there, but you can stop reading at any time, and go back later to where you left off.
Edited by - larc on 24 September 2002 16:13:54
Edited by - larc on 24 September 2002 16:16:17
 
larc
larc 13 years ago


Help,
I can't make this a clickable above and somone fix this.
 
DJ
DJ 13 years ago

Gotcha covered www.amishabuse.com
 
scootergirl
scootergirl 13 years ago

I just returned from the Library and ipcked up a (nf) book called "Crossing Over-One Woman's Exodus from Amish Life", written by Ruth Irene Garrett. VERY VERY interesting......so much so that I don't want to put it down! Here is what the jacket has to say about the book:

Ruth Irene Garrett's compelling story represents a unique insight into the inner workings of the Amish from someone who has lived among them. As such, it portrays a different view than the publicly held warm and fuzzy notion that the Amish way of life is forever pristine, eternally free from strife.
Ms. Garrett's story is also a story of spiritual triumph. In essence, she is suggesting that no institution comes before the words of the Scriptures, and that no man-or woman-be allowed to serve as judge and jury when it comes to matters of faith.
Irene Garrett is a woman who was oppressed in ways that most of us cannot fathom in this day and age of independence. She serves as inspiration to other woman trapped in cycles of abuse or control.
And finally, her fresh and sometime humorous perspective on modern day life demonstrates how many things we take for granted.

 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

Now we're getting somewhere.Not even the JW mentioned the abuse in the Amish community,they would however talk about the chronic depression and critisize the reclusive lifestyle as unhealthy in contrast to the vehement attacks on the child abuse in the catholic church .I guess now I know the reason they are so miserable .Sounds like a lifetime movie there scootergirl. PLMKRZY- were you referring to me ? cause I don't remember emailing at all.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 13 years ago


I found an interesting article on the Amish written by a Japanese. Although there is a summary in Japanese, it is translated. The Historical Background section gives the various types of Amish groups there are. Another segment: "2. Conflict Between Church and State," even discusses a Jehovah's Witness case "Prince vs. Mass. (1944).
http://www.info.sophia.ac.jp/amecana/Journal/13-3.htm
 
puzzled
puzzled 13 years ago


YEH Sorry Wrong heathen. LOL hahahaha, that new thingy next to the user name throws me off if I don't have my glasses on.

PLUMCRAZY/
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 13 years ago

I should have mentioned that like the Jehovah's Witnesses, some Amish practice excommunication (disfellowshipping) and shunning in effort to keep the community pure.
 
Bendrr
Bendrr 13 years ago


There is a Mennonite community a little ways south of where I live. (Are Amish and Mennonites the same?) They all wear the traditional clothes and don't send their kids to public schools. But they do have cars and trucks, electricity, running water, etc. They own a restaurant in Montezuma, Ga that is very popular. They own several other businesses around there too.
BTW, Yoder's (the restaurant) is excellent! Everything is fresh, grown and raised by the Mennonites themselves.
Col. Bendrr, [classified]
 
animal
animal 13 years ago


I lived in Lititz, PA... just a click north of Lancaster, PA.... we were pretty much surrounded by the Amish.
They dont preach, they actually like thier privacy and dont trust outsiders. They do like bikers, maybe cuz we have the long beards too and are disliked by society, like them.
They do not use electric, but if they have dairy farms, they have both electric and phone lines to the barn only. This is to purify the milk, and the phone is needed to call the maintainance company in case the purification stuff goes down. It is not unusual to see an Amish dude plowing a field with horses while having a wireless phone hanging out of his back pocket. I hear the dairy farmers call each other.
I worked at New Holland, where we made all kinds of farm equipment. A company around the corner from our plant would take our tractor-driven hay bailers and convert them to diesel-driven balers. Then, the Amish would pull this machine with a horse or two.
Cameras are avoided at all costs.... and mirrors. It has something to do with vanity and the devil.
Beards are not worn until a man gets married... up till then, you have a hairless face.
Also, PA mandated 12 volt lighting systems in the buggies a while back. This opened up a market for stereos in the buggies the younger amish drove around.... and they like them LOUD.
Enuff for now. I loved sharing the road with the horses tho, other than the shit on the roads. It is like ice to a motorcycle tire.
Animal
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

That's too much ,animal .no electricity ,mirrors or cameras lol .cell phones and horse driven plows ? horse buggies and loud stereos , you're killing me with that one he he.I take it they are just boom boxes and not car stereos ? I think I realize I could never live that kind of life style so I guess even according to them I am going to hell .
 
animal
animal 13 years ago


They dont look for new converts.... they are very much kept to themselves.

Animal
 
Quotes
Quotes 13 years ago


If you want to hear VERY funny songs, with new lyrics song to Rock&Roll classics, check out ELECTRIC AMISH:
http://www.electricamish.com/
You will be glad you did.
 

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A is for Amish
by heathen 13 years ago 22 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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Satanus
Satanus 13 years ago


Up till shortly after they were married, my parents were mennenites. Mennenites are a break away from the same group the amish came from. The mennenite group saw things in a much more liberal way than the amish did. While they still were very conscious of their separateness from outside world (the english), they accepted a lot of the modern stuff, like cars, electricity, music, phones. For my father, becoming a jw was a rebellious act, and an escape.
Some of the characteristics carry over. The father as the authoritarian head. My mother put her feelings in the grave, so to speak, at a young age. She accepted without complaint the lousy treatment she got from my dad. Hell, i think she liked it. She supported all the abuse we kids got, and asked for more beatings for us. Work, work, work. That was the main thing. Guess i'm a rebel, and i only work when i have to. Anyway, if you read part of the book larc pointed to, you can see that the repression in the amish system is worse, in some ways than the jw's, although it is different.
One of my uncles joined a group of other mennenites that moved to bolivia, to get away from 'worldly' influences. They have farms down there. I heard that they had a few tough years. Most mennonite churches are main stream fundies now, from what i understand.
SS

Edited by - saintsatan on 25 September 2002 23:36:46
 
heathen
heathen 13 years ago

Quotes - that was the funniest thing I've seen lately , I especially liked Amish man RONTFLMAO . Animal- that's a damn good thing ,they aren't the pesty locus of revelation.
 
COMF
COMF 13 years ago



 

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Topic Summary
anyone here ever been a practicing amish ?
i always wondered what life was like in the amish community.any help would be appreciated.i did see the witness movie with harrison ford and thought it was a good movie ,but was it in anyway realistic?
inquiring minds wanna know.



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How Cultish are the JW's?
by xjwsrock 5 months ago 28 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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xjwsrock
xjwsrock 5 months ago

First off, I certainly agree the JW's are a cult. But I'm sensitive to black-and-white thinking now.
So, where do they rank on the scale? Think of a Cultish Religion scale from 0-10.
Consider the likes of Unitarian Universalism vs Baptist vs Amish vs Charles Manson.
Where do you think JW's fall on the scale?
 +2 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 5 months ago

The JW's are told to;
who they can love, who they can associate with, what they can wear, abstain from life-saving medical treatment with blood, how to spend their time, not to celebrate ANY holidays, what to watch for entertainment.....I don't know but nothing sounds more like a ''cult'' to me. I have to say right up on the scale around 8 or 9.
 +6 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 5 months ago

Where do they fall on the scale?
That's a tough scale to exhibit. Heaven's Gate and Branch Davidians would be TEN in many books, but their membership was so small in comparison to JW's. JW's have 8 million or so members, but they haven't (yet) told the members to drink the Kool-Aid like they did at Jonestown.
I would have to say that everyone's scale will be different.
Many churches exert little control over the day-to-day lives of members. Cults like the JW's exert high control over that. They encourage shunning and withdrawing from normal "worldly" events and lifestyles. They wreck the future for many young ones, either through crushing their goals or through making them choose normalcy over family.
On my scale, JW's would be an EIGHT out of TEN. That leaves room for the real whacko killers and reincarnated messiahs to the NINE AND TEN portion, but also allows the Universalists and lower control groups below that number. But to be fair, I would put Muslims right up there at EIGHT also.
 +6 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 5 months ago

Onthewayout: JW's have 8 million or so members, but they haven't (yet) told the members to drink the Kool-Aid like they did at Jonestown.
The WTS has their members sign no blood cards instead.
The number of JWs who have quietly, and some not so quietly, committed suicide for the blood cult far outweighs the numbers who gave up their lives dramatically in cults like Heaven's Gate and Jonestown.
The WTS is more subtle than "those other cults". And far more effective. They have been getting their members to commit suicide for 70 years now.
 +7 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 5 months ago

I would put the JW at around 7 out of ten .
High controlling, coercive, deceiving and manipulative nevertheless.

 +4 / -0
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 5 months ago

I would consult an expert like Steven Hassan... I have yet to do so, but that;s what I;d do to find an answer to this question
just sayin
 +1 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 5 months ago

I agree with much of what you guys/gals are saying. I look at the thought-stopping and other blatant manipulation in the JW's. The willingness to let members kill themselves over their half-wit interpretation of 2000 year old scripture (blood). OrphanCrow I haven't thought of the org like that, but you're right. They really are a subtle version of the suicide cults. That's a sobering thought.
I guess I see the Amish and other heavily isolated crazies as being 9's on the scale. The Charles Mansons, Jonestowns of the world are the 10's. So JW's would be an 8 to me (same as OTWO). Control is high but immediate physical danger lower than the groups further up the chain.
Mormons like 7.5
Scientology 8.5
 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 5 months ago

That blood doctrine is a terrible one, dangerous. I'll stand to be corrected, but from what I've understand a blood transfusion procedure was not performed until within the last century or so, I think I'm not sure of the exact timeline I read it a few years ago.
So, if that's the case, that scripture in Acts was referring simply to injesting/eating blood. How in hell would someone be able to attempt a blood transfusion in bible times is just beyond me.
 +3 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry 5 months ago

Scientology 9.5
WTS - 9.0
Mormons - 7.0

 +1 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 5 months ago

Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heavens Gate 10
FLDS 9.5
Scientology 9.0
JW 8.5
Mormons 7.5
I'd say its hard to get into the "super cult zone" unless you really get people isolated from the rest of society, but JWs do a damn good job of it.
 +1 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 5 months ago
I would give them a 7
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 5 months ago

I'd give 8 as an average. But it varies by individual and country. Some people skirt the edges. Some Hispanic countries are more friendly and less strict on shunning.
Being it Bethel pushes it to a 9. Living in Warwick will be even worse than Brooklyn, where the members get little exposure to real people.
 +4 / -0
possum
possum 5 months ago

Except for North Korea............and ISIS................A cult is a cult is a cult. Witnesses may not drink koolaid but they will die and allow their children to die rather than have a blood transfusion. They control access to information re: education, books, music. They victimize the victims who are raped by fellow members. They exercise undue influence and control on even the most intimate aspects of members lives. Where else can uneducated misogynistic men who mostly have no formal qualifications exercise such power only on the basis of being 'spirit appointed'. And they victimise those who seek to leave.......a cult is a cult is a cult...........
JW CULT is..........
 a perversion of the gospel, based upon an unholy devotion to a person, a principle, or both.

 +5 / -0
Ruby456
Ruby456 5 months ago
7
 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 5 months ago

xjwsrock: OrphanCrow I haven't thought of the org like that, but you're right. They really are a subtle version of the suicide cults. That's a sobering thought.
Yes, it is.
I have not given a score yet for "degree of cultiness" of the JWs, but after some thought I am going to give them a solid 10.
They hit all the points of "what is a cult?" to some degree or another, but what puts it over to the far end of the scale for me is the blood refusal/suicide requirement that has been, and continues to be, demanded of WTS followers.
The cults most easily thought of as "extreme" are the suicide cults and there is no doubt that the JWs are a suicide cult. And a cult of child sacrifice.
It is difficult to establish the magnitude of the number of "suicides" and "child sacrifices" that have been "willingly" entered into on the part of thought reformed JWs, but the following quote gives an estimate:
http://www.anzca.edu.au/resources/college-publications/pdfs/ANZCA%20Blue%20Book%202011%20P6.pdf

It is estimated that approximately 1000 Jehovah’s Witnesses die annually worldwide and as many as 100,000 may have died by abstaining from blood transfusions since the blood ban was introduced in 1945.
So, to put that into the context of "degree of extremity" and compare those numbers to the suicide cults that we readily label as a "10" on the 'cult index', the yearly estimated sucides by JWs are almost in line with the total number of victims of the following three cults:
Heaven's Gate - 39 victims
Jonestown - 918
Solar Temple - 74
Those three suicide cults together claimed 1,031 victims.
The JW blood cult can boast that number all by itself in a single year. Year after year....after year. Jws have been dying following a cult doctrine for 70 years.
Yes. The JWs are a resounding 10 the way I figure it. Just because most of their victims are invisible and silent doesn't mean that the magnitude of the harm that the WTS blood cult doctrine is responsible for should be overlooked.
 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 5 months ago


xjwsrock - "How Cultish are the JW's?"
The way I see it, the leadership haven't advocated mass suicide (explicity or otherwise)...
x
...yet.
 +0 / -2
cookiemaster
cookiemaster 5 months ago
Giving a rating of 10 to the suicide cults, I would also give a 10 to the JW cult. My reasons for this are simple. I had to spend 4 hours begging my mother to forget her brainwashing and choose not to die by taking a blood transfusion. Thankfully, she ultimately did, but I can't get over the fact that this cult almost killed her for nothing.
Aside from that, at the age of 19, she left her Christian Orthodox family because they didn't approve of the cult. She became a pioneer in the communist regime (the first pioneer in this country), preaching and illegally transporting literature at the risk of imprisonment or death. She gave up everything for this cult: family, freedom and life. When a life and death situation came, the cult said they have no obligation to help her. On top of that, they said she disassociated.
So, based on my personal experience as well as everything else I know and was taught about the cult, this cult does the following:
- asks members to die by refusing blood
- asks members to kill their children by refusing blood for them
- shuns members that leave or oppose these teachings
- limits social contact with the outside world
- brainwashes members into irrational beliefs
- demands the time and resources of members
- controls every aspect of the life of members (marriage, sex, appearance, education, profession, hobbies, holidays, etc)
- tolerates pedophiles
Taking into account that in the past this cult did not allow organ transplants and even vaccines, alongside the blood transfusion issue, I think the number of victims it has made far exceeds that of any other death cult (HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF VICTIMS), with the exception of Islam. With all this in mind, I strongly believe it is a 10 on the scale, being one of the most destructive types of cults in existence.
 +6 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 5 months ago

They are a ten.
No they haven't advocated mass suicide............ but they do insist that everyone carries a suicide note (No Blood) on their person and to be prepared to accept the Societies word on this matter of blood.
The death toll started with their ban or discouragement of Vaccines, Then Blood, then Transplants. Now we find that they have a serious pedophile problem once again aided and abetted by the Societies non reasoning........the two witness rule.

By discouraging higher education they promote poverty and poor people don't live as long as those folks who live more comfortably. Then you can factor in suicides and mental health issues because of shunning and being abused as children.
Their needless death rate alone makes them one of the worlds most dangerous religions.
 +4 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 5 months ago

There are a few different ways of measuring how damaging the cult is. It's definitely not as controlling as scientology from what I understand, so in that way I don't think it could be ranked a 10. Maybe a 7.5 or 8.
As far as cost in human life, I still don't think they're quite a 10. With the heaven's gate cult it appears that essentially all the members eventually died. With People's Temple (Jonestown) they had a membership at one time from somewhere between 3-5k people but a few less than 1000 died from the cult. While JWs definitely kill more and have a much greater absolute cost in human life, they aren't as bad on the cult scale because relative to their size they don't cause as much damage.
Now, where I a humanitarian or government entity looking at which cult to focus on in order to keep people safe - JWs would 100% be at the top of that list. Their size, absolute death toll and relatively benign public image (though that seems to be changing a little) make them the most important priority as far as shutting down dangerous cults goes.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 5 months ago
Guys, I ended my post with the word "YET".
 +3 / -0

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How Cultish are the JW's?
by xjwsrock 5 months ago 28 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 5 months ago

Sunday's brain-washing session:
1) The world at large is controlled by the Devil.
2) You are forbidden to have friendships with non-JWs.
3) All non-WTBTS produced media is under the control of the Devil and will not exist in the New World. (That's right, all movies, music, books, all works by the greatest masters and thinkers throughout human history...gone. ONLY JW reading material, entertainment and art/hobbies/pursuits will exist.
4) How happified are the Dubs to have the G.O.D producing books, movies, and music!!
5) Jesus chose the WTBTS in 1914.....
6) Just because it's legal ( I'm assuming they were talking of gay marriage ) doesn't mean it's good! Jeehoober hates it!! ( maybe they were speaking of re-appointing Pedo Elders??)
7) Only baptized, faithful ( to the GB ) dubs with high standards ( faithful to GB/WTBTS ) are marriage material! Men should be Servants. Newly baptized lovers of Jeehobo are not good enough!!
7) Some youth complain that King-dumb Maladies aren't as good as Satans kick-ass music!! Shameth on them!!! ( Old Sisters comment-WT Conductors head bobs in agreement..)
8) Abstain from blood means refusing a medical procedure that saves lives 2,000 years in the future! Jeehoober hates the 4 main components of blood.
Need I continue??? It's a F****ng cult!!! 10 on a "10" scale!!!! Who cares if it's slightly different from other cults!! IT'S A CULT!!!!!!
DD
 +5 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 5 months ago

Good points on your list from the WT Datadog...
Who cares if it's slightly different from other cults!!
It's an intellectual discussion. While dealing with this religion understandably stirs up emotions, emotion can get the best of us if we're not careful. I think it's good to keep things in perspective and understand what we are actually dealing with here instead of flying off the handle and doing something to either hurt ourselves or someone else. (speaking hypothetically)
For instance, let's say someone is stuck in JW land like I am. Understanding that being stuck in Scientology or Amish country would be possibly a little worse and that there are "awake" members dealing with that reality as we speak, may be just the slight edge needed to keep us going another day with our burden. Saying "a cult is a cult is a cult" is not dealing with the issue with our eyes wide open to the full picture. It leans back to that 'either/or", black-and-white thinking that we are trying to rise above.
Understanding we are on a scale with other people, some better, some worse, can help us feel not so alone.
 +4 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 5 months ago

I'm aware that this is a discussion. That being said, how is being Amish worse than JWism? How is Scientology worse?
1) Amish: Live a simple life. Farm and read the Bible. Let your kids go wild and decide whether or not they want to be Amish. If they don't want to be Amish, shun them. Meanwhile, have some weird rules.
2) Scientology: Life is more modern. Be an actor, make a movie, get rich! It's all good! Give your share to the religion. If your kids or family don't want to be Scientologists, shun them! Weird rules abound.
3) Jwism: Life is simplified, in theory. You can be rich or poor. Tons of weird rules. Shun everyone who doesn't worship the GB.
What can really be said about these weirdos?? There is some good and bad in all of them. I believe that all organized religions are ultimately harmful and cults, because they infringe upon the rights of the individual to grow and progress at their own pace.
Cults place people in round holes, even when the person is a "square peg."
DD
 +2 / -0
done4good
done4good 5 months ago

Maybe less weird and isolated than Scientology or the LDS, but at least equally as controlling as those, and certainly more so in the practical sense.
There is a reason that JWs have the lowest education and lowest income among the "major" religious groups in the US, as well as some of the most significant mental/emotional health issues. JWs do whatever the GB instruct them to do. "Don't purse higher education"...done. "Don't desire a 'worldy' career"....done. "Shun your ex-believer best friend"...done.

The evidence of the cultishness is in the empirical results. The statistics and end results don't lie.
d4g

 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin 5 months ago

I give them a 10.
The image that really sticks in my mind is that of the child martyrs on the cover of their Awake! (TM) magazine.



 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 5 months ago
By their culty fruits you will recognize them.
 +4 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 5 months ago

You know I had a thought (dangerous I know) . When they calculate how destructive an earthquake is I believe they go on how many lives it has claimed first, before damage & cost, also in that cost would be the psychological trauma for those still alive.


You have to now consider not only literal life but also psychological. So a person die's from saying no to blood is one, the trauma caused to the family is many. A person commits suicide is one, the trauma caused to the family is many. ETC. you get my point.
So if we go from say the last 100 years you would be looking at a 9 possibly a full 10. We shouldn't calculate something like a cult on our own experiences but should take into account everyone involved.
 +3 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 5 months ago
Just a quick thanks to all who posted - I appreciate your input on the topic.
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 5 months ago

Sabin: You have to now consider not only literal life but also psychological. So a person die's from saying no to blood is one, the trauma caused to the family is many. A person commits suicide is one, the trauma caused to the family is many. ETC. you get my point.
Yes, the ripples that the no blood doctrine has left in its wake are immeasurable.
We can try to calculate the number dead but that does not account for those who survived without blood but with long term problems associated with oxygen deprivation or from the side effects of alternative and experimental procedures and drugs being used on them.
It does not account for the children left without mothers or fathers, families who have lost children, or for the health care professionals who have had to watch needless deaths.
One of the factors that professionals look at when determining where on the "grey scale" of 'cultishness' is the degree of violence or potential for violence that the cult's beliefs generate. I think that the ensuing violence that occurs, when someone who has been given limited choices chooses to die, can be measured in the violence inflicted upon the survivors left behind to deal with the aftermath.
 

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Topic Summary
first off, i certainly agree the jw's are a cult.
but i'm sensitive to black-and-white thinking now.. so, where do they rank on the scale?
think of a cultish religion scale from 0-10.. consider the likes of unitarian universalism vs baptist vs amish vs charles manson.. where do you think jw's fall on the scale?.



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International Cultic Studies newsletter- latest news on various cults
by Dogpatch 9 years ago 2 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw friends
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Dogpatch
Dogpatch 9 years ago

ICSA E-Newsletter
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_enews/affnb_2007_01.htm#education
Vol. 6, No. 1, 2007
Contents
Articles
· McCabe, Kelley, Goldberg, Lorna, Langone, Michael, & DeVoe, Kristen. A Workshop for People Born or Raised in Cultic Groups
· Akyol, Mustafa. European Muslims and the Cult of Jihadism
Recent Publications in Cultic Studies Review
Education and Research Events
Books, Articles, and Web Sites Brought to Our Attention
Group News Briefs
Reminder: ICSA (International Cultic Studies Association) is the new name for AFF (American Family Foundation)
Remember to Refresh Your Browser


Recent Publications in Cultic Studies Review
If you do not yet subscribe to the journal, you may do so here ($25/year for Web subscription; print and web subscription - $45 U.S.; $55 Canada/Mexico; $65 other countries).
Articles
· Cultism, Terrorism, and Homeland Security (Stephen Bruce Mutch, Ph.D., LL.B.)
· Responding to Jihadism: A Cultic Studies Perspective (Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.)
· Terrorist Motivations, Extreme Violence, and the Pursuit of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) (Jaime Gomez)
· Are Terrorists Cultists?  (Arthur A. Dole, Ph.D., ABPP)
· Terror and Terrorism: A History of Ideas and Philosophical-Ethical Reflections (Brig. Gen. Edwin R. Micewski)
· The Psychobiology of Trauma and Child Maltreatment (Doni Whitsett, Ph.D., L.C.S.W.)
· The Problems and Possibilities of Defining Precise Criteria to Distinguish Between Ethical and Unethical Proselytizing/Evangelism (Elmer J. Thiessen, Ph.D.)
· Antisocial Personality Disorder in Cult Leaders and Induction of Dependent Personality Disorder in Cult Members (John Burke, Ph.D.)
Book Reviews (reviewer in parentheses)
· Help At Any Cost: How the Troubled Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids (Steve K. D. Eichel, Ph.D., ABPP)
· Madness and Evil—A Review of The Sullivanian Institute/Fourth Wall Community: The Relationship of Radical Individualism and Authoritarianism (Daniel Shaw, C.S.W.)
· Theosophy and Culture: Nicholas Roerich (Joseph P. Szimhart)
· ocCULT: They Didn't Think It Could Happen in Their Church (Joseph P. Szimhart)
· Captives of a Concept: Understanding the Illusionary Concept that Holds Jehovah’s Witnesses Captive (Marcia Rudin, M.A.)
· I Can’t Hear God Anymore (Lois V. Svoboda, M.D., L.M.F.T.)
· Out of the Cocoon: A Young Woman’s Courageous Flight from the Grip of a Religious Cult (Mary Kochan)
· The Great Failure: A Bartender, a Monk, and My Unlikely Path to Truth (Katherine V. Masis, M.A.)
News Summaries
Education  and Research Events
ICSA Annual International Conference – Brussels, Belgium
ICSA’s Annual International Conference will take place in Brussels, Belgium June 30 – July 1, 2007. Nearly 100 speakers will present on a wide range of subjects. For information on the program and how to register go to: http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_conferences/2007brussels/2007_a_home.htm
Call for Art and Literary Works for The Phoenix Project Arts Exhibit
Ex –cult members and ex-members of high demand organizations, who will be attending the ICSA Brussels 2007 Conference, or who will have a person at the conference able to present their work, are invited to submit proposals of their visual art or literary works to be considered for participation in The Phoenix Project Arts Exhibit, to be presented at the 2007 ICSA Conference in Brussels.
This exhibit of cult related artwork will be that which has been created by former members in any stage of recovery. It is suggested that submitted artwork show the world of ex-members, their healing or recovery, or aspects of their time of transition from their cult or high-demand organization. New works are welcome.
Creations may be in any art form, including but not limited to: literary (such as poetry, drama, short story, or other writings), music of any kind, dance, and the visual arts (such as paintings, drawings, collage, sculpture, fiber arts, photography, film, video, or multi-media).
If desired, this work may be presented anonymously, through another presenter.
We anticipate that this exhibit will illuminate the reality of life in a high-demand organization, and of its effects on individuals, and that it will provide an empowering experience for participating artists, who will have the chance to tell their own stories in their own ways.
For more information, please e-mail Phoenix Project Director and Coordinator Diana Pletts at: exmemberartwork@yahoo.com
We look forward to considering your artwork for this event, and hope that you will consider working with us in this presentation of ex-cult member artwork.
Please pass this announcement on. Thank you.
Child Trauma Academy Offers Online Training
The CTA has been offering a live online training series this fall. This has been a very rewarding and interesting experience. Clinical cases from the various participating organizations are discussed from a neurobiologically-informed, developmentally- respectful interdisciplinary clinical approach used by the CTA. These weekly training sessions use a web-based audioconference model. This allows individuals to log into the training site and call a conference call number and participate wherever they are. This inexpensive alternative to onsite training or video conference allows institutions and individuals to build capacity and meet training requirements. CEUs are available for qualifying participants. The upcoming Winter Series is open to individuals and institutions seeking to learn more about clinical work with maltreated and traumatized children. For more information or to subscribe please contact Jana Rosenfelt at 281.932.1375, JLRosenfelt@ChildTraumaAcademy.org or click on the link below. For the last five years, the CTA has been providing online courses on our online University, www.C hildTraumaAcademy.com. These classes are completely free for participants. If certification or CEUs are desired, a small administrative fee is charged. The feedback on these Web-courses is very positive. CASA workers, foster parents, judges, teachers, clinicians and a host of other professionals have found these courses very helpful.
Kiev Conference
The Family and Personality Protection Society hosted a conference September 27-28, 2006 in Kiev, Ukraine entitled, “Therapy and Prevention of Psychological and Social Dependencies.” Participants included mental health professionals, researchers, and others. The conference included simultaneous translation in Ukrainian, Russian, and English. Some publications may result from the conference. http :// www . fpps . org . ua
Dialogue Ireland Seminar Series, “Cracking Cults”
The "Cracking Cults" seminars will start on Monday January 15 at 7:30 PM. Registration from 7PM
Venue: 22-24 Foley Street, Dublin 1- See map below. Further details can be seen on our web site http://www.dialogueireland.org
Seminars can be attended individually for €20 or €200 for ten. Please have the fee in the post before Friday to guarantee a place. For other arrangements please contact the director before midday Monday 15 January by phone or email.
DIALOGUE IRELAND TRUST
Phone: 353 -1- 8309384 or mobile 353 - 87 2396229
7/8 Lr Abbey St; Dublin 1
Web site http://www.dialogueireland.org
Charity number: CHY 14004
15 January 2007 1. What is a Cult? Course Outline and Definitions (Mike Garde)
22 January 2007 2. Criminal Cults (Paul Williams and Mike Garde)
29 January 2007 3. Cultist Attitudes and Tendencies in Religion (Mike Garde)
5 February 2007 4. Political Cults (Dr Mark Dooley)
12 February 2007 5. Eastern Religiosity/New Age and Cultism (Fr Louis Hughes OP)
19 February 2007 6. The Cult of Islamism within Islam (Sheikh Shaheed Satardien and Mike Garde)
26 February 2007 7. Addiction & Cults (Alan O’Dwyer and Mike Garde)
5 March 2007 8. The New Messiahs: Examination of Main Cult Leaders of History (Mike Garde); One Case Study: Charles T. Russell Tounder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses (Joe Leddy)
12 March 2007 9. Secularism as New Cultist Movement (David Quinn)
26 March 2007 10. Conclusions: The Cults of the Celtic Tiger (Mike Garde)
New Acquisitions of Info-Cult/Info-Secte
New acquisitions to the library of Info-Cult/Info-Secte can be found at: http://www.math.mcgill.ca/triples/infocult/ic-acq.html.
New Religious Movements and Politics Conference
INFORM conducted a conference on this subject on Saturday, November 25, 2006 at the New Theatre of the London School of Economics. Speakers included: Professor Eileen Barker, Emeritus Professor at the London School of Economics; Madame Anne Fournier of MIVILUDES; Mr. Stephen Green of Christian Voice; Mr. Shiraz Maher, former member of the Hizb ut Tahrir; Professor Ian Reader of the Department of Religious Studies, Lancaster University; Mr. Ringo Ringvee, Department of Religious Affairs, Ministry of Interiors, Estonia; Dr. Marat Shterin, Department of Theology and Religious Studies, Kings College London; and Mr. Steve Wilson of Public Bodies Liaison Committee for British Paganism.
Eternal Light Award to Rabbi A. James Rudin
Long-time ICSA advisor Rabbi A. James Rudin will receive the Eternal Light Award of the Center for Catholic-Jewish Studies, a collaboration of St. Leo University and the American Jewish Committee, at the 8th Annual Eternal Light Award Dinner on February 18, 2006 in Sarasota, Florida. “Rabbi A. James Rudin has been selected by the Board of Directors to receive this award for his lifetime work in support of Catholic-Jewish relations. Each year the Board selects a noted individual who reflects the values of the Center and has materially contributed to bridge understanding among both communities. Past Eternal Light honorees include the late Professor Jan Karski, Rabbi Irving Greenberg, the Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, Professor Deborah Lipstadt, Bishop John Nevins, the late Rabbi Sanford Saperstein, and Cardinal William Keeler.”
Dr. Janja Lalich Consults on TV Series
A story in the Chico Enterprise-Record (September 18, 2006) by Melissa Dougherty discusses Dr. Janja Lalich’s consultation to the writers of the new FOX TV-Series, “Vanished.” “While she cannot reveal who kidnapped the young wife of a U.S. senator — the premise on which the show revolves — Lalich said it's no spoiler to say that some sort of secret organization is involved.”
Ministerial Meeting on Cults
Rev. Kelley McCabe helped organized a ministerial meeting on high-demand groups at the Indian River Memorial Hospital (Florida) on November 15, 2006. Speakers included Lorna Goldberg and Kristen DeVoe, both licensed clinical social workers. Ms. Goldberg talked about how to recognize some of the common characteristics of high-demand groups and how best to avoid them. This information is relevant to congregations: grandparents, parents, and children, alike. Ms. Goldberg also presented information on a workshop (called the SGA Workshop) offered to children who were born into, or grew up in, a destructive cult environment. Children who grow up in these environments lack many of the basic skills for navigating in our complex world. Ms. DeVoe shared some of her experiences of being recruited into, and growing up in, a cult she joined at the age of 14. Ms DeVoe also talked about her attendance at last spring's SGA Workshop and its impact on her efforts to rebuild her life.
Joe Szimhart Talk to Ex-Ramtha Members
Joe Szimhart spent a weekend with approximately 35 former members of Ramtha in Seattle, Washington. Mr. Szimhart says: “Fascinating and tragic stories. Most of these folks are middle-aged and older and mostly women--one lady flew in from CT to attend. She left the group after 16 years in last November! There were many folks who were members for 15 to 22 years. Some left 10 to 15 years ago.”
RIP: Father Walter Debold
Long-time ICSA advisor Father Walter Debold died at the age of 90 on December 10, 2006. Father Debold was Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Seton Hall University in South Orange, New Jersey. A member of Cultic Studies Review editorial board, Fr. Debold lectured and wrote widely about cult issues for more than 25 years. Father Debold’s ICSA profile includes eulogies, comments from members of the ICSA community, and reflections that he asked his family to send to ICSA after his death: http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_profile/debold_walter.asp#Comments_
RIP: Gabriel Cazares
From St. Petersburg Times, September 29, 2006 (By Mike Donila and Robert Farley, Staff Writers, with Craig Basse): “ Former Clearwater Mayor Gabe Cazares, a civil rights advocate, champion of the disadvantaged and arch-enemy of the Church of Scientology, died Friday (Sept. 29, 2006). He was 86. As a politician, Mr. Cazares led the local Democratic Party and won public office at a time when few Hispanics even lived in Pinellas County. As a community activist, he worked to help the poor and build bridges in Clearwater during the early years of integration. But after the Church of Scientology came to town in late 1975, Mr. Cazares became an outspoken critic, prompting Scientologists to hatch plans to smear him. . . When the smoke eventually cleared, a $1.5-million defamation lawsuit filed by Mr. Cazares and his wife against the church was settled out of court in 1986. It was one of several suits between Mr. Cazares and the church over the years.”
RIP: Jose Maria Baamonde
Dr. José María Baamonde , Argentinean psychologist and founder of Fundación S.P.E.S (Servicio Para el Esclarecimiento en Sectas ), died of cancer on August 23, 2006. Dr. Baamonde received a Ph.D. in psychology from the John F. Kennedy University of Buenos Aires. He taught courses in Catholic Culture at Pontificia Universidad Católica Argentina and psychology at the Universidad San Pablo-CEU in Madrid, Spain. He also worked as an adviser to the Secretariado para la Familia de la Conferencia Episcopal Argentina. He spoke at ICSA’s 2005 Annual International conference in Madrid. Among other works he is author of La Familia: La Verdadera Historia de los Niños de Dios .
Send news updates on your education and research activities to Dr. Langone at mail@icsamail.com .
Books , Articles, and Web Sites Brought to Our Attention
New Book by Bruce Perry and Maia Szalavitz
From childtraumaacademy.org: “We are pleased to announce that the critically- acclaimed book by Dr. Bruce Perry and Maia Szalavitz, ‘The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog’ is now available in all major bookstores. In beautifully written, fascinating accounts of experiences working with emotionally stunted and traumatized children, child psychiatrist Perry educates readers about how early-life stress and violence affects the developing brain. He offers simple yet vivid illustrations of the stress response and the brain's mechanisms with facts and images that crystallize in the mind without being too detailed or confusing. The stories exhibit compassion, understanding and hope as Perry paints detailed, humane pictures of patients who have experienced violence, sexual abuse or neglect, and Perry invites the reader on his own journey to understanding how the developing child's brain works.’ -- Publishers Weekly.” (ICSA hopes to make this book available on our online bookstore, www.cultinfobooks.com, soon.)
New Book by Pascal Zivi and Jacques Poujol: Les Abus Spirituels
Zivi, Pascal, & Poujol, Jacques. Les abus spirituels. Empreinte temps présent, 2006. ISBN : 978-2-906405-79-5. « On parle d’abus spiritual lorsqu’une personne profite de sa position d’autorité pour en dominer psychologiquement et spirituellement une autre, en la privant de son autonomie et de son libre arbitre. Ce phénomène, encore tabou, touche pourtant de nombreuses personnes au sein des églises et des communautés chrétiennes. »
Evangelicals Losing Youth?
Goodstein, Laurie. (2006, October 6). Evangelicals fear the loss of their teenagers. New York Times. “Despite their packed megachurches, their political clout and their increasing visibility on the national stage, evangelical Christian leaders are warning one another that their teenagers are abandoning the faith in droves. At an unusual series of leadership meetings in 44 cities this fall, more than 6,000 pastors are hearing dire forecasts from some of the biggest names in the conservative evangelical movement. Their alarm has been stoked by a highly suspect claim that if current trends continue, only 4 percent of teenagers will be ‘Bible-believing Christians’ as adults. That would be a sharp decline compared with 35 percent of the current generation of baby boomers, and before that, 65 percent of the World War II generation. . . Mr. Smith said he was skeptical about the 4 percent statistic. He said the figure was from a footnote in a book and was inconsistent with research he had conducted and reviewed, which has found that evangelical teenagers are more likely to remain involved with their faith than are mainline Protestants, Catholics, Jews and teenagers of almost every other religion.”
Master’s Thesis on Magnificat Meal Movement
Mike Garde of Dialogue Ireland Trust completed a Master’s thesis in Theology at Milltown Institute in Dublin entitled, “Spirituality and Cultism, A Case Study of a New Religious Movement – the Magnificat Meal Movement.” Abstract – “ This thesis is concerned with the distinguishing characteristics of cultist NRMs. The Magnificat Meal Movement (MMM) is the particular focus through which this is done. Chapter One is introductory in nature and outlines the task of the different chapters and their development. The spiritual, professional, and academic aspects relevant to the topic are integrated. Chapter Two investigates and evaluates the question of terminology and its classification. Oriented by methodological developments in spirituality and practical theology, this chapter uses an interdisciplinary approach to critically review what scholars in the field are saying. A new definition of cultist NRMs is advanced. This necessitates a move away from identifying groups or persons allegedly involved in cults in favour of the recognition of patterns of behaviour and human mentalities called cultist tendencies or attitudes that can be clearly identified and analysed. This new approach has clear pastoral, spiritual and theological advantages. Chapter Three is contextual in nature. It traces the origins and development of the MMM and its foundress Debra Geileskey in Australia. While this is done in a chronological fashion, the chapter is concerned to identify the underlying religious patterns that come to characterise the MMM. The conflation of the person of Debra with the MMM will be evidenced. Chapter Four examines the history of the MMM in Ireland using the same methodology as in Chapter Three. Patterns of growth and decline will also be traced. Chapter Five takes up the task of critical evaluation and asks the question: is the MMM a cultist NRM? Chapter Six draws the conclusions about the MMM together, and identifies it clearly as a cultist NRM. Specific recommendations for those involved with NRMs are proposed. Areas for further study and issues that need to be addressed by the Churches and the Irish State in relation to NRMs are identified.”
Six-Part New York Times Series on Religious Exemptions
In October 2006 the New York Times began a 6-part series on how American religious organizations benefit from an increasingly accommodating government. The five parts dealt with: Favors for the faithful, limiting workers rights, giving exemptions, personal exemptions, ministry for medicine, Christ’s mission, Caesar’s money. The series is available at: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/business/churchstate.html.
Pentecostal Survey
Goodstein, Laurie. (2006, October 6). Pentecostal and charismatic groups growing. New York Times. “A survey of Pentecostal and charismatic Christians in 10 countries in Asia, Africa and the Americas shows they are gaining converts and are more politically engaged than experts had thought. . . The survey (available online at pewforum.org/surveys/pentecostal) found that in Brazil, Guatemala and Kenya, about half the population or more were renewalist Christians. In many of the countries studied, a majority of the Protestants were renewalists, and in Latin American countries, many left Roman Catholic churches for Pentecostal ones. Change has happened quickly, in part because Pentecostals and charismatics are far more likely than other Christians to say they share their faith at least once a week with nonbelievers, the survey shows. “Pentecostal beliefs and practices are literally reshaping the face of Christianity throughout the developing world,” said Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.
Speaking in Tongues
Carey, Benedict (2006, November 7). A neuroscientific look at speaking in tongues. New York Times. “The passionate, sometimes rhythmic, language-like patter that pours forth from religious people who ‘speak in tongues’ reflects a state of mental possession, many of them say. Now they have some neuroscience to back them up. Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain images of five women while they spoke in tongues and found that their frontal lobes — the thinking, willful part of the brain through which people control what they do — were relatively quiet, as were the language centers. The regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were active. The women were not in blind trances, and it was unclear which region was driving the behavior.”
How the Brain Distorts and Deceives
Fine, Cordelia. (2006). A mind of its own: How your brain distorts and deceives. W. W. Norton & Company. From book review by Susan Salter Reynolds in Discoveries: “We’re keeping the truth from ourselves! ‘A Mind of Its Own’ is a remarkably entertaining tale of the many ways our brains distort the world and protect our precious egos. ‘Failure is perhaps the greatest enemy of the ego, and that's why the vain brain does its best to barricade the door against this unwelcome guest,’ writes author Cordelia Fine. ‘Your brain is vainglorious,’ says Fine, a research associate at Australian National University. ‘It's emotional and immoral. It deludes you. It is pigheaded, secretive, and weakwilled. Oh, and it's also a bigot.’ Fine walks us through the prefrontal cortex, where emotions rule judgment, and studies showing that ‘[w]e are strangely blind to how the subtleties of other people's situations might affect them. Our sensitivity to the context, so sharply tuned when we apply it to ourselves, becomes sloppy and careless when we focus on others.’ She reveals the brain's unflagging penchant for delusion (i.e., ‘seeking evidence that supports whichever hypothesis we happen to be entertaining’); its secrecy (no wonder we have to pay professionals to tell us why we do things!); and its generally weak-willed nature. ‘It's hard work being in charge of a brain,’ Fine writes. Though by the end of ‘A Mind of Its Own,’ it seems perfectly clear that we are not really in charge at all.”
False Confessions.
Stambor, Zak. (2006, September). Can psychology prevent false confessions? Monitor on Psychology, 20-21.
French Translation of Polygamy Article
The Kropveld & Langone article published in ICSA e-newsletter, Vol. 5, No. 2 (2006), “’Lost Love’” in the Controversy Surrounding “’Big Love,’” has been translated into French and is available at: http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/kropveld_michael_perdusdanslacontroverse.htm.
Book Concentrating on Manipulation in Small Groups
Anne Edelstan, Sweden’s FECRIS representative, has published a book, Mon Voyage de la Vierge de l'Apocalypse, available at: www.publibook.com .
FECRIS Conference Presentations Available Online
Presentations from The October 2006 FECRIS conference in Brussels, as well as prior conferences, are now available online in English, French, German, and Italian at http://www.fecris.org/
North Korea Escalates Cult of Kim
Marquand, Robert. (2007, Jan. 3). “N. Korea escalates 'cult of Kim' to counter West's influence.” Christian Science Monitor. “North Koreans are taught to worship Kim Jong Il as a god. In a manner unique among nations, the North exerts extraordinary control through deification - a cult ideology of complete subservience - that goes beyond the "Stalinist" label often used to describe the newly nuclear North. . . . in a time of famine and poverty, government spending on Kim-family deification - now nearly 40 percent of the visible budget - is the only category in the North's budget to increase, according to a new white paper by the Korea Institute for International Economic Policy in Seoul. . . In 1990, ideology was 19 percent of North Korea's budget; by 2004 it doubled to at least 38.5 percent of state spending, according to the white paper. . . ‘It isn't quite realized [in the West] how much a threat the penetration of ideas means. They [Kim's regime] see it as a social problem that could bring down the state,’ says Brian Myers, a North Korean expert at Dongseo University in Busan, South Korea. . . Yet rather than accept such penetration as an inexorable threat, Kim is putting up a serious fight to slow and counter it - by increasing his program of cult-worship. . . The scope of the current project outdoes even the cult of personality during Mao's Cultural Revolution, according to a 2005 doctoral dissertation by Lee Jong Heon at Chung-Ang University in Seoul. Mr. Lee visited North Korea several times for his research. . . Kim Jong Il has upgraded his deification strategies to strengthen the family cult system. Western reports often detail Korea's unique "juche ideology" - a theology of Kim worship, repeated hourly and daily, reminding Koreans they are insolubly bound to the Kim family and must erase foreign influence from their minds. Yet juche is a subcategory of a far more encompassing umbrella of deification known as woo sang hwa, or idol worship. In North Korea, woo sang hwa contains all the aspects of cult worship. Kim broke away from orthodox communism, for example, in a program called "our style socialism." While Marxism-Leninism demands fealty to "nation," "party," and "serving the people" - Kim's "our style [Korean] socialism" does no such thing. It makes "family loyalty," with Kim at the head, the supreme good - a major deflection from communism. . . Perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of the Korean cult project is its recent veering toward race and ethnic solidarity, say Kim watchers. His main appeal to his people today, a push that rarely gets attention outside the North, is to the racial superiority of a people whose isolation and stubborn xenophobia supposedly makes their bloodlines purer. Mr. Myers notes that festivals of 100,000 flag wavers is not a Stalinist exercise, but a celebration of "ethnic homogeneity." Since the 1990s Kim has more fervently claimed lineage to the first ancient rulers of Korea, a move intended to place him in a position of historical, if not divine, destiny as leader of the peninsula.”
Moon and the Washington Times
Journalist Robert Parry has written a detailed article entitled, “The GOP’s $3 Billion Dollar Propaganda Organ,” published in www.consortiumnews.com on December 27, 2006. “The American Right achieved its political dominance in Washington over the past quarter century with the help of more than $3 billion spent by Korean cult leader Sun Myung Moon on a daily propaganda organ, the Washington Times, according to a 21-year veteran of the newspaper. George Archibald, who describes himself ‘as the first reporter hired at the Washington Times outside the founding group’ and author of a commemorative book on the Times’ first two decades, has now joined a long line of disillusioned conservative writers who departed and warned the public about extremism within the newspaper. In an Internet essay on recent turmoil inside the Times, Archibald also confirmed claims by some former Moon insiders that the cult leader has continued to pour in $100 million a year or more to keep the newspaper afloat. Archibald put the price tag for the newspaper’s first 24 years at ‘more than $3 billion of cash.’”
Pacific Sun on Miracle of Love
Jill Kramer wrote an article, “Miracle of Love,” for Pacific Sun, March 17, 2006. The article begins: “It’s called meditation, but it looks like a scene out of Dante’s Inferno. People writhe on the floor, screaming and crying. Pop songs blare from the speakers—The Black Eyed Peas, Bruce Springsteen, Mike & the Mechanics. A woman speaks soothingly into a microphone, encouraging attendees to give their feelings free rein. It’s the fourth day of “The Intensive,” a six-day Miracle of Love seminar, and everyone is exhausted. They’ve been deprived of sleep, food has been limited. They’ve been probed, prodded and berated until they’ve all dredged up their deepest psychic pain and shared it with the others. Emotions are raw, souls laid bare.”
Jonestown Report
Fielding M. McGahee, III released the eighth edition of the Jonestown Report in November 2006. Go to http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/. This site “includes many primary source documents about Peoples Temple and Jonestown not available any other place on the Web. Among other features, the site has the largest collection of transcribed tapes from Jonestown, the biggest online gallery of photographs showing everyday life in Jonestown, and a growing collection of writings by former Temple members, Jonestown survivors, and relatives of those who died on 18 November 1978.”
Articles on Jehovah’s Witnesses
· Louderback-Wood, Kerry. (2005). Jehovah’s Witnesses, blood transfusions and the tort of misrepresentation. Journal of Church and State, 47, 783-822. “The Society’s main resource regarding its blood policy, ‘How Can Blood Save Your Life?’ (‘pamphlet’), teaches both Witnesses and interested persons about the religion’s blood prohibition. . . This essay will first discuss the pamphlet’s misrepresentations of these secular writers and the availability of private action suits for persons harmed when a religious organization misrepresents secular facts. . . this essay will also examine misrepresentations within the dissemination of the blood policy that could leave both Witnesses and medical staff ill-advised. This essay. . . is meant, however, to further legal theory regarding the use of tort law as a narrowly tailored means for affording harmed persons legal redress.”
· Guichon, J., & Mitchell, I. (2006). Medical emergencies in children of orthodox Jehovah’s Witness families: Three recent legal cases, ethical issues and proposals for management. Journal of the Canadian Paediatric Society, 11(10), 655-658. “Three recent Canadian legal cases have dealt with the proposed blood transfusion of adolescent members of Jehovah’s Witness (JW) families. In each case, the court permitted transfusions if medically necessary. Much critical analysis of the issue of forced treatment of decisionally competent adolescents focuses exclusively on competence and questions why mature minors may not decide for themselves. The authors argue that a focus on decision-making competence alone is too narrow. Before one may legally give or refuse consent to medical treatment, three conditions must be met: competence, adequate information and lack of coercion. In striving to find agreement on medical treatment, physicians, patients and JW family members seek and, in fact, often achieve mutual understanding and cooperation. Coercion by actual or threatened shunning and excommunication can occur, and these factors may affect adolescent decision-making. In this context, a court order authorizing medical treatment can, therefore, be seen as enhancing patient freedom. The authors suggest that, in addition to fulfilling existing statutory duties to report a child in need of protection, health care professionals caring for acute patients of JW families should actively look for evidence that the patient has accurate medical information and is acting without coercion. The authors also explore suggestions on how to deal with the unusual complexities of such cases.” http://www.pulsus.com/Paeds/11_10/guic_ed.htm
From Religion in the News
· Shipps, Jan. Polygamy Returns. (Vol. 9, No. 1, 2006): http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/RINVol9No2/Polygamy%20Returns.htm .
· Dorman, Benjamin. Religious Politics, Japanese Style. (Vol. 9, No. 2, 2006): http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/Vol9No1/Religious%20Politics,%20Japanese%20Style.htm .
· Palmer, Susan. Cult Fighting in Middle Georgia. (Vol. 9, No. 1, 2006): http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/Vol9No1/Cult%20Fighting%20in%20Middle%20Georgia.htm .
From Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion
· Bader, Christopher D., Mencken, F. Carson, & Parker, James. Review Essay: Where Have All the Communes Gone? Religion’s Effect on the Survival of Communes. (Vol. 45, No. 1, 2006, pp. 73-86).
· Olson, Paul J. The Public Perception of “Cults” and “New Religious Movements. (Vol. 45, No. 1, 2006, pp. 97-106).
· Goldman, Marion S. Cults, New Religions, and the Spiritual Landscape: A Review of Four Collections. (Vol. 45, No. 1, 2006, pp. 87-96).
From Nova Religio: The Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions
· Rochford, E. Burke, Jr., & Bailey, Kendra. Almost Heaven: Leadership, Decline and the Transformation of New Vrindaban. (Vol. 9, No. 3., 2006, pp. 6-23).
· Sitler, Robert K. The 2012 Phenomenon: New Age Appropriation of an Ancient Mayan Calendar. (Vol. 9, No. 3, 2006, pp. 24-38).
· Irwin, Lee. Walking the Line: Pipe and Sweat Ceremonies in Prison. (Vol. 9, No. 3, 2006, pp. 39-60).
· Vojtisek, Zdenek. Millennial Expectations in the Grail Movement. (Vol. 9, No. 3., 2006, pp. 6-23).
· Petrov, Sergey. The Jehovists-Il’inites: A Russian Millenarian Movement. (Vol. 9, No. 3, 2006, pp. 80-91).
· Books reviewed in Vol. 9, No. 3, 2006: New Religious Movements: A Documentary Reader; Apocalyptic Trajectories: Millenarianism and Violence in the Contemporary World; Cyberhenge: Modern Pagans on the Internet; Coming Out in Christianity: Religion, Identity and Community; God in the Details: American Religion in Popular Culture; The Sound of Two Hands Clapping: The Education of a Tibetan Buddhist Monk; New Age and Neopagan Religions in America; Sports in Zion; Crossing Over: One Woman’s Escape from Amish Life; The Amish on the Iowa Prairie, 1840 to 1910.
· Homer, Michael W. Seeking Primitive Christianity in the Waldensian Valleys: Protestants, Mormons, Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses in Italy. (Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 5-33).
· Bacquet, Karen. When Principle and Authority Collide: Baha’I Responses to the Exclusion of Women from the Universal House of Justice. (Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 34-52).
· Ariel, Yaakov. Can Adam and Eve Reconcile? Gender and Sexuality in a New Jewish Religious Movement. (Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 53-78).
· Tishken, Joel E. Whose Nazareth Baptist Church? Prophecy, Power, and Schism in South Africa. (Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 79-97).
· Annus, Iren E. New Studies in Mormonism. (Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 98-111).
· Books reviewed in Vol. 9, No. 4, 2006: The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern; Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults; Becoming the Compassion Buddha: Tantric, Mahamudra for Everyday Life; The Sabbatean Prophets; On the Backroad to Heaven: Old Order Hutterites, Mennonites, Amish, and Brethren; Religious Fundamentalism and Political Extremism; The New Inquisitors; Secrets, Gossip, and Gods: The Transformation of Brazilian Candomble; When Prophecy Never Fails: Myth and Reality in a Flying-Saucer Group; Mind Over Mind: The Anthropology and Psychology of Spirit Possession; Modern American Communes: A Dictionary.
· Kent, Stephen A. A Matter of Principle: Fundamentalist Mormon Polygamy, Children, and Human Rights Debates. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 7-29).
· Bradley, Martha Sonntag. Response: Patriarchy, Intervention, and Prophetic Leadership Challenges in the Culture of Mormon Fundamentalism. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 30-42).
· Beaman, Lori G. Response: Who Decides? Harm, Polygamy and Limits on Freedom. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 43-51).
· Phillips, Rick. Rethinking the International Expansion of Mormonism. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 52-68).
· Crovetto, Helen. Embodied Knowledge and Divinity: The Hohm Community as Western-style Bauls. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 69-95).
· Palmer, Norris W. Negotiating Hindu Identity in an American Landscape. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 96-108).
· Moore, Rebecca. Peoples Temple Revisited. (Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006, pp. 111-118).
· Books reviewed in Vol. 10, No. 1, 2006: Peoples Temple and Black Religion in America; The Unknown God: W. T. Smith and the Thelemites; The Re-Enchantment of the West: Volume 1. Alternative Spiritualities, Sacralization, Popular Culture and Occulture; The Dawn of the New Cycle: Point Loma Theosophists and American Culture; Nature’s Way: Native Wisdom for Living in Balance with the Earth; New Political Religions, or An Analysis of Modern Terrorism; Star in the East: Krishnamurti, the Invention of a Messiah; Action Dharma: New Studies in Engaged Buddhism; Continuity and Transformation: Religious Synthesis in East Asia; The Gods Drink Whiskey: Stumbling Toward Enlightenment in the Land of the Tattered Buddha; Zen Gifts to Christians; Muscular Christianity: Manhood and Sports in Protestant America, 1880-1920; Shaking the World for Jesus: Media and Conservative Evangelical Culture; Aleister Crowley and the Ouija Board.
Send information on noteworthy new books and articles to Dr. Langone at mail@icsamail.com.
News Briefs
Virginia in July executed Michael Lenz, convicted of murdering a fellow prison inmate in 1990 during an Asatru religious ceremony. Lenz established a prison chapter of Asatru — an ancient religion with gods from Norse mythology — that he named Ironwood Kindred. The victim was allegedly involved in a struggle for power within the Kindred. A co-defendant, also sentenced to death, committed suicide while on death row in 2004. Stephen McNallen, director of the Asatru Folk Assembly, a leading Asatru group, believes there are 10,000–20,000 followers in the U.S. Experts say Asatru, which McNallen parallels to Native American religions, has become increasingly popular with white supremacist prison groups.
Aum Shinrikyo (Aleph) leader Fumihiro Joyu, saying it will be difficult to bridge the gap between Aum groups that are for and against him, has suggested splitting the organization’s financial assets and facilities with the opposition while he reviews religious principles and training systems as a prelude to launching a new group. . . Authorities see Joyu’s conjectured plan as a way to “evade application of the Group Control Law and survive as a new religious organization.” Some say his faction, which amounts to some twenty percent, or 1,600 members — another twenty percent make up the anti-Joyu faction — seeks to diminish the influence of founder Shoko Asahara, now jailed and appealing a death sentence. Joyu told followers, “If we make a new religious organization, we will never make a person into a god.” . . . Asahara’s lawyers have filed an appeal of his conviction and death sentence with the Supreme Court on the ground that he suffers from “pathological mental stress” caused by confinement and was unfit for the trial that found him guilty. The Tokyo High Court rejected a similar appeal on his behalf in March.
The Japanese Supreme Court has denied former Aum Shinrikyo (Aleph) member Noboru Nakamura’s appeal of his life sentence for murder in connection with the Aum gas attack on the Tokyo subway in 1994. He was convicted in 2001, saying he was only a lookout and didn’t intend to kill anyone. . . Japanese security officers inspected 25 Aum Shinrikyo facilities across the country the day after leader Shoko Asahara’s death sentence was “finalized.” They were checking for “dangerous moves among cult members.” An official said the finalization may prompt some members to kill themselves when the sentence is carried out. Aum’s financial resources include: donations from followers who live in their own homes; wages earned by members who live communally; and payment for public lectures. . . Aum got away with numerous crimes between 1989 and 1995, even before the infamous attack on the Toyo subway, thanks to authorities’ failure to investigate or share information and to heed warning signs. The earlier crimes, which gave the group the sense that it could do whatever it liked, included: narcotics manufacture and sales; arms smuggling; medical fraud and malpractice; child abuse; forgery; copyright infringement; consumer fraud; land fraud; perjury; intimidation; harboring fugitives; extortion; burglary; assault; kidnapping; attempted murder; and murder. . . The Aum faction led by Fumahiro Joyu wants to stop payments to Asahara’s wife, now out of prison and living with their daughters, but this idea is opposed by a faction loyal to the imprisoned guru, known [more commonly now by his original name] as Chuzo Matsumoto.
Roland Robidoux, head of The Body, the Attleboro, MA, group whose teachings led to the starvation death of an infant — and the murder conviction of the child’s father — died at the group’s home in mid-May, apparently of natural causes.
The California parole board has refused, for the fifteenth time, to release Leslie Van Houten, convicted in two of the murders committed by Charles Manson’s cult in 1969. The two-member panel praised Van Houton’s spotless disciplinary record, and her work tutoring fellow inmates, adding that they would review her case once again next year.
A Shelby county Alabama judge in July sentenced Phillip J. Kronzer to 15 hours in jail for making derogatory statements, in violation of a court order, about the Caritas organization, led by Terry Colafrancesco. Kronzar is a California businessman who “declared war on cults” when his wife left him for Caritas, an organization dedicated to hosting a Bosnian Catholic visionary [and the pilgrims who come to see her.] Kronzer, who admitted posting derogatory material on his website about Colafrancesco and his lawyers, has been ordered to pay them $225,000 for breaching a settlement agreement not to discuss the case.
Jacqueline LeBaron, daughter of the late leader of the polygamous Church of the Lamb of God, has been put on the FBI’s “Most Wanted” list. She is suspected of involvement in a number of murders and suspicious deaths of persons on a hit list made up before the death of her father, who was convicted of murdering a rival and sentenced to prison, where he died in 1981. Renewed interest in her arose recently when Texas authorities received new information about her, reportedly from a half brother, who says he found Jesus in prison.
Former Colonia Dignidad leader Paul Schaefer, 84, extradited from Argentina, where he had fled with the fall of his cultic commune, has been sentenced to 20 years in prison in Chile for sexually abusing minors. He still faces charges of human rights abuses, including allegations he allowed the dictator Pinochet’s secret police to torture and kill prisoners at the remote Colonia Dignidad.
The population of Colonia Dignidad is dropping, down to 198 residents from a high of some 1,000 — mostly German immigrants — at its height, with 116 adults, 64 retirees, and 18 small children remaining. A spokesman said many have left for fear they’ll be prosecuted for the crimes committed by now-jailed leader Paul Schaefer. The spokesman added, “The residents of Villa Bavaria have to integrate themselves more with Chileans and stop being so racist.” Colony residents earlier this year sent a letter to the Chilean president detailing the crimes that took place over the years and how Schaefer maintained his control using brainwashing, electric shock, tranquilizers, and isolation.
The recently discovered recording of a 1985 phone conversation among leaders of Colonia Dignidad suggests that the group conspired with the Pinochet dictatorship in the detention and death of Penn State professor Boris Weisfeiler, a Russian-born U.S. citizen who disappeared while hiking in Chile. Weisfeiler’s sister, who has spent two decades trying to find out what happened to her brother, has been assisted lately by her Congressman, Barney Frank, of Massachusetts. The last lead in the case dates to 1987 when a Chilean military informant told U.S. embassy officials that he was part of a patrol that arrested a foreign hiker and decided he was a Russian spy. . . Chile’s Supreme Court has rejected a judge’s request that five former Colonia Dignidad officials be extradited from Argentina, whence they fled [with the fall of leader Paul Schaefer].
At least 22 dissidents who disappeared during the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile were killed at the Colonia Dignidad commune run by Paul Schaefer, according to Gerhard Mucke, a former commune leader testifying before a judge investigating human rights abuses. The colony has been accused for many years of allowing the Pinochet security service to use it for detention, torture, and execution of dissidents.
The Exclusive Brethren, said to have 18,000 members in Australia, is likely once again to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to influence a national election. Representatives of the organization led by “Elect Vessel” Bruce Hales — whose members don’t vote, believing that governments are chosen by God — often shares it’s views with conservative politicians it supports in elections. . . Prime Minister John Howard has refused to disclose what he said in talks with Brethren members on the grounds that such discussions are confidential. . . A 40-year member who fled the Brethren six years ago, with her children, has told TV reporters that she knows of many cases of sexual abuse that the Brethren have covered up and dealt with internally. . . Senator Bob Brown said the Prime Minister has criticized extreme Muslims for repressing women but not the Brethren for repressing women in the workplace, in church, and in the home.
China has told Australia that it must deal with Falun Gong protestors who are damaging the “dignity” of the Chinese mission in Canberra when they demonstrate against Chinese treatment of Falun Gong practitioners. Australia recently relaxed restrictions on protests but says it’s making sure the dignity of embassies is not violated. Australia has expressed concerns about allegations that Chinese authorities have arrested and executed thousands of dissidents and harvested their vital organs for sale. . . Former Canadian MP David Kilgore and his law partner David Matas say in their recent report that the Chinese government has, “in effect, murdered [Falun Gong dissidents] for their organs,” noting that the source of some 41,000 transplants in China between 2000 and 2005 remains unexplained. The Chinese, calling the report groundless and biased, recently announced a new law that would ban sales of human organs and require donors to give written permission for the transplants . . . Human rights activist Harry Wu agrees that organs taken from prisoners are being sold, but says there is no evidence that Falun Gong practitioners are being executed en masse to provide the organs.
Wang Weyi, the woman representing the U.S. Falun Gong newspaper Epoch Times who heckled Chinese President Hu Jintao when he visited President Bush at the White House, has reached a deal with prosecutors to drop charges against her of intimidating and threatening the leaders during a press conference in April. Weyi had shouted, “President Bush, stop him [Hu Jintao] from killing [Falun Gong practitioners in China.]”
A former FLDS member confirms investigative reports that Warren Jeffs teaches the old Mormon doctrine of blood atonement — killing an apostate in order to save his soul through the shedding of his blood. Another former member says, “Warren has been teaching for a long time that those who are guilty of adultery must be blood-atoned.” Although it cannot be implemented now because the government won’t allow it, Jeffs allegedly says followers will be able to practice the policy in the future.
Kelly Fischer, 39, a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), has been found guilty — by a Kingman, AZ, jury — of engaging in sex with an underage girl whom he took as a plural wife. Prosecutors charged that he conspired with FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, and the girl’s mother, to arrange the courting and marriage. Fischer was the first of eight FLDS men to be charged in similar cases. The girl’s mother had been “re-assigned” by Jeffs to be Fischer’s second wife in 1997 or 1998. The daughter, who was then 13 or 14, would become Fischer’s third wife. Mohave County Attorney Matt Smith said: “This case is not about polygamy. It is about underage sex practices . . . I think the jury is speaking for the fact that that is not something that should be tolerated, no matter where it happens.” The jury’s decision was based on the testimony of two former FLDS members who spoke of the relationship they observed between Fischer and the girl, and about the nature of relations between the sexes in the polygamous community. Due to resistance in the FLDS community, neither the victim nor persons allegedly involved in setting up the relationship testified. Fischer faces four months to two years in prison on each of two counts, but he may be sentenced only to a year’s probation.
The judge who decided the case said he doesn’t see Fischer as a typical sexual predator and that the young woman does not consider herself a victim. He noted that the parent-approved relationship would have been legal if Fischer had not already been married and had legally wed her. The case was not about polygamy, he said. “My attitude and perception has been that polygamy in Colorado City is something that is perfectly acceptable to the government agencies in this area and the only reason these cases have become involved in the criminal justice system are the assertions and allegations that some of the plural wives were underage when they had sex.” He added that the case was not concerned with an attempt to “re-educate or brainwash these people and the church in Colorado City to get rid of their religious beliefs and give up the practice of polygamy. What this case is about is to discourage people in that community or any other community from having sex with girls that are underage.” The judge concluded by saying that while Fischer was motivated by “sincere religious belief,” he considered it “abominable” and “very hard to accept [that] someone can subscribe to a religion that allows them to have multiple wives at the same time.”
The State of Maine’s lawsuit against Gentle Wind, for falsely claiming that its products have healing qualities, also alleges, under the Unfair Trade Practices Act, that the organization falsely claimed that medical studies proved its healing instruments were effective. The suit also says Gentle Wind manipulated followers into sex rituals and disbursed more than $500,000 in so-called medical grants to patients who were asked to use the instruments and provide testimonials. A Connecticut physician who is also an associate professor at Yale University School of Nursing says, “My experience with the instruments is that they do help people . . . enough people that I don’t believe it’s a placebo.” Maine also alleges that Gentle Wind misused charitable funds by purchasing personal property (albeit these were declared in tax filings).
Maine has filed a 13-count complaint accusing the Gentle Wind Project of violating the state’s Unfair Trade Practices Act. Earlier, the Attorney General entered into a consent decree with the Project that dissolved the organization and forbade the founders from making false claims about its healing instruments. The state became involved after former members published autobiographical essays comparing Gentle Wind to a “mind control cult” and the organization sued them for defamation (a suit the Project says it is still pursuing).
Having settled a lawsuit brought by the State of Maine that charged the group with defrauding the public by purveying “healing instruments” of unproved therapeutic effectiveness, the Gentle Wind Project is up and running again, despite agreeing to disband. The group, which also lost its non-profit status and says it no longer accepts donations or payments in any form, still presses a defamation suit against former followers who say, on their website, that Gentle Wind is cult-like and practices mind-control. . . Meanwhile, Gentle Wind’s lawyers have refused to continue to represent the group because it has not paid their legal fees.
“The Gentle Wind Project has agreed to drop a defamation lawsuit against two former members who wrote articles comparing the self-styled spiritual healing group to a ‘mind control cult.’ Under the agreement, Gentle Wind will drop its claims against Jim Bergin and Judy Garvey, a married couple from Blue Hill, and pay them an undisclosed amount of money to reimburse them for donations they made to the organization during their 17 years of membership. The agreement ends more than three years of litigation that began when Bergin and Garvey published online accounts of their years with the group, which they said dominated every aspect of their lives.” (Gregory Kesich, Portland Press Herald, November 10, 2006)
The Baltimore-based Greater Grace World Outreach — which claims 55 affiliated churches in the U.S. and hundreds worldwide — is being criticized by numerous former followers and cult observers for alleged mind control, sexual misconduct, child molestation, fraud, extortion, and family schisms. The organization is led by the Rev. Carl Henry Stevens, whose Massachusetts-based Bible Speaks — Greater Grace’s predecessor — was ordered by a court two decades ago to repay a woman whom he had persuaded to donate $5.5 million to his ministry. The head of Watchman Fellowship, a Christian research organizations, says Greater Grace is “a dysfunctional religious group . . . [that] teaches certain doctrines that empower the leadership, which also creates powerless followers. It leads to emotional or spiritual injury for people who question or step outside (the ministry).”
Nathalie Gettliff, 35, has been jailed in British Columbia for abducting her children and taking them to France to keep them from the influence of their father and his church, the International Churches of Christ. A French court ruled that Getliffe had breached the Hague Convention on Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. She was arrested when she returned to Vancouver to defend her doctoral dissertation at the University of British Columbia.
While in custody in Canada on charges of abduction for taking her children to France to keep them from her former husband and the influence of the International Churches of Christ, Nathalie Getliffe’s boyfriend — the French writer Francis Gruzelle — and other supporters continue to attack the French courts for ordering the children’s return. Gruzelle, who will run against the French Minister of Justice in the next election, says the children are being abused like the character Cosette, one of the “poor wretches” in Victor Hugo’s Les Miserables. French president Jacques Chirac has asked Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper to ensure Canada gives “detailed attention” to Getliffe’s health as she prepares to give birth to her fourth child.
Scott Grant, who recently gained custody of their two children from his wife, Nathalie Getliffe, says she poisoned their minds against him, telling them he didn’t want them and that they’d be in danger if they returned to Canada because he is a member of the International Churches of Christ, which she calls a “cult.” Grant says that his calm explanation of the truth about him and the International Church dissipated the children’s high anxiety and now they are happy to be with him. In response to profound concerns about their mother’s imprisonment, he says he told them her case would be helped if they returned from France to Canada, thus putting an end to the “crime” she had committed in abducting them. He has also taken them to visit her in a Vancouver prison, where she is being held for trial.
The Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench has dismissed Lawrence Hughes’s lawsuit accusing Jehovah’s Witnesses members of contributing to the death of his daughter, a teenager who refused blood transfusions. In reversing a previous ruling, the court said Hughes was not properly named administrator of the estate of his daughter, Bethany, 17, who died of leukemia in 2002. Hughes says he cannot afford a further appeal.
Kenneth Emmanuel Dyers, 84, co-founder of the spiritual healing group Kenja, was arrested last October in Sydney, allegedly for assaulting two twelve-year-old girls during “energy conversion sessions.” The girls’ family left the organization when the financial contributions Dyers demanded became too great.
Pope Benedict XVI has called clerical sex abuses “egregious crimes” that have damaged the Church and its clergy, and that in order “to rebuild confidence and trust," it is necessary to learn what had happened in the past and prevent it from happening again. In May, the Pope asked Marcial Maciel, founder of the Legion of Christ, to stop celebrating mass in public and take on a life of “prayer and penance.” The Vatican had investigated allegations that Maciel sexually abused seminarians many years ago.
A former Legionary testified that the organization is very secretive and abusive. Followers must take private vows not to criticize the actions of superiors and to report those who do. He also said the confidentiality of spiritual counseling is often violated. . . . The Hartford Courant says, “Justice was far too gentle” with Maciel, although his punishment “is an undeniable sign that, even at the highest levels, the Roman Catholic Church is no longer treating accusations of sexual abuse by priests with its traditional tolerance, secrecy, and denial.” . . . The Legionaries of Christ, founded in 1941, has 650 priests and 2,500 seminarians in 20 countries. The Regnum Christi Movement is its lay auxiliary.
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has ruled that, despite the state’s anti-bigamy law, Stanley M. Shepp may teach his 13-year-old daughter about polygamy because it is a deeply held religious belief, unless doing so would harm the girl’s physical or mental health or safety or potentially create significant social burdens. Shepp, separated from his family, and calling himself a fundamentalist Mormon since his excommunication from the mainline Mormon Church because of his growing interest in polygamy, now lives in Utah. His ex-wife, with whom he shares custody of the girl, says, “My biggest fear is that she will be allowed to go to Utah with her father and go to a polygamist camp . . . and I’ll never see her again. Because by law, you only need one parent’s signature to marry off one of your children.” Shepp does not have the right, however, to take his daughter to Utah. . . The overwhelming majority of Canadians think polygamy should remain illegal and that the government should more aggressively move to protect children in polygamous communities, according to a poll conducted for the Institute of Canadian Values published in the Vancouver Sun.
The Raëlians have filed a complaint with the Québec Human Rights Commission claiming that the exclusion of their books from the provincial book expo amounts to religious discrimination. . . A Québec Superior Court judge has ruled that an Ottawa columnist did not libel Raël (Claude Vorhilon) when he called the group’s leader a “scatterbrained swindler” and a “clown.” The judge said, “It is strange, to say the least, that Raël should be offended by terms used about him when they are similar to those he uses when he judges . . . followers of the Jewish and Christian religions.” The jurist called Vorhilon’s testimony that he, Raël, had spoken with extra-terrestrials on another planet, “more like hallucinations and fantasies, unless he was fully aware that he lied in court [when he spoke about such things].”
Old allegations of pedophilia against Guru Sathya Sai Baba, in Britain, have surfaced following an announcement that 200 boys are to visit India for a month-long humanitarian pilgrimage organized by the Sai Youth Movement. Former home office minister Tom Sackville, who runs a cult victim support group, said, “It is appallingly naïve for the award scheme to involve young people . . . with an organization whose leader is accused of pedophilia.” The U.S. State Department says citizens should be aware of “unconfirmed reports of inappropriate sexual behavior by a prominent local religious leader [apparently Sai Baba] at an ashram or religious retreat located in Andhra Pradesh.”
Today, more than three decades after it arrived to make the city its international headquarters, Scientology has become an “indelible, if still mysterious, part of Clearwater.” Some say the organization has cleaned up the once-decrepit downtown but others believe retail merchants who aren’t Scientologists, and people going through Clearwater, avoid downtown because of the church’s dominance there, where “masses of uniformed people [Scientologists] walk the streets, wearing belted green, navy, or russet pants and crisp white or pale blue shirts,” and move “in purposeful strides, with the quickened footsteps of people with a mission.”
Scientologists attached to the church’s Citizens Commission on Human Rights, carrying signs saying “Psychiatry Kills,” picketed the annual Comprehensive Review of Psychiatry meeting, in Niagara Falls, NY. The head of the University of Buffalo department of psychiatry said the picketers “have the same credibility as people who say they’ve been kidnapped by aliens in flying saucers.” . . . Narconon plans to open a 66-bed facility on 30 acres at a rural site in upper Bouquet Canyon that formerly housed a boarding school. Critics have questioned the efficacy of Scientology drug detoxification treatments. Scientology representatives say there will be no religious indoctrination. . . Scientology’s Citizens Commission on Human Rights in July protested a suicide prevention program at Littleton, MA, High School, saying it placed students on drugs unnecessarily and that drug companies stood to benefit from increased prescription drug use.
The British Value Added Tax (VAT) Tribunal has ruled, following a recent test case involving a car dealership, that the government Revenue and Customs department must pay £4.1 million to Scientology, money the group has overpaid since 1973. Scientology has fought for the last decade to gain charitable status, and therefore certain tax exemptions. The Charities Commission has always refused to recognize Scientology as a religion — it said it saw “no public benefit arising out of the practice of Scientology” — but tax authorities declared in 2000 that the church is a not-for-profit organization that does not have to pay the VAT. . . Scientology says that a pre-Katrina membership of 25 in its Lafayette, LA, church has more than doubled in the storm’s wake. Members, wearing trademark yellow T-shirts, helped victims with shelter, food, supplies, and counseling. . . A Scientologist accused of assaulting a church critic who was videotaping Scientologists on a sidewalk in Clearwater, FL, will not be prosecuted. The State Attorney says the evidence shows “pretty much mutual aggression.”
A federal judge in Nebraska has ruled constitutional the state’s law mandating newborn blood screening, thus denying a suit brought by a couple saying the test would violate their Scientology religious beliefs. Nebraska, Montana, Michigan, and South Dakota are the only states that do not allow a religious belief exemption. Nebraska says the test is needed to prevent several diseases that can cause severe mental retardation or death if undetected — and because treatment of the diseases would impose a great burden of care on taxpayers. Scientologists believe that babies should simply have seven days of silence following birth.
Narseal Batiste, 32, head of the Miami-based alleged terrorist cell Seas of David, which is accused of planning to blow up Chicago’s Sears Tower, has been described as a “Moses-like” figure who roamed his neighborhood wearing a robe and holding a cane while recruiting young men to embrace the tenets of the Moorish Science Temple of America, a group founded in 1913 by circus magician Noble Drew Ali. The Moorish Science Temple believes that all black people are born Muslims and descended from the nomadic Moors of North Africa. Clement Rodney Hampton-El, another Moorish Science adherent, was convicted in 1995 of taking part in a failed plot to blow up New York City transit tunnels. Lawyers for some of Batiste’s associates — mostly poor, young, Haitian-Americans — argue that the government had, through an informant who taped their oath of loyalty to Al Qaeda, entrapped them, luring them into doing more than they would otherwise have done. Critics say the case is typical of the Bush administration’s exaggeration of terrorist threats, especially since Batiste had no ability to carry out his proposed attacks. The government calls the case an example of the “pre-emptive” strategy needed to discover credible plots among those that are not likely to come to anything.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations’ (CAIR) has asked the media not to refer to Seas of David members, recently arrested for allegedly plotting terrorist attacks, as “Muslims.” The request [according to this report] is consistent with CAIR’s policy of apologizing for radical Islam and insisting, through disinformation, that the linkage of terrorist activities to Muslim militants is simply the product of prejudice.
Canadian Liberal Party MP Wajid Khan, a Muslim in whose constituency recently accused terrorist plotters resided, says, “The onus is on our community to address this problem. We’re talking about a cult, a small number of extremists. The majority of us are moderates. But these are the voices that haven’t been heard. This has to change. We can’t let these people get their roots down here.” He called for an end to certain local imams’ preaching hate of Canadian institutions and suggested setting standards for imam training. He also asked parents to stop ignoring changes in their teenagers’ behavior. “If a child is abused or falls victim to drugs or other crimes, we intercede and seek help. Why is this [recruiting youth into a terrorist group] any different? It’s a crime, too. A very dramatic one, maybe, but just a crime.”
The Chairman of the Transcendental Meditation Society in Israel has called on the government to recruit a group of 256 “Yogic Flyers” who, using an advanced TM technique, would create a shield of invincibility around the country and bring an immediate end to the violence with Hezbollah. He says the advanced meditation technique brings consciousness to a level where thinking is without content, where the Flyer connects with the “source of all energy and intelligence — beyond any thought and at the same time the source of all thought.”
A Marin Independent Journal editorial of 10/16/06 says parents of students in San Rafael, CA, have legitimate concerns about Terra Linda High School’s decision to offer Transcendental Medication (TM) as the stress management part of a new wellness program because TM has religious overtones. The proposed TM unit is made possible by a $175,000 grant from filmmaker David Lynch’s foundation. At a presentation on the benefits of TM, anti-cult lawyer Ford Greene asked pointed questions that dominated the session, and one parent, who said she’d taught TM for 35 years, called it a “destructive cult.” The AP on 10/19/06 reported: “Plans for a high school meditation club funded by filmmaker David Lynch evaporated this week after parents caught wind that students would be taught Transcendental Meditation, the method developed by a one-time spiritual teacher to The Beatles, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Amid protests that TM was a form of religious practice and therefore inappropriate for a public school, the David Lynch Foundation on Tuesday withdrew the $175,000 it had pledged to Terra Linda High School in San Rafael.”
Mogens Amdi Petersen, founder of the Danish charity Tvind, known worldwide as Humana People-to-People, has been found not guilty by a Danish court of orchestrating a tax fraud scheme, as alleged by former foundation members [who also accused the organization, which collects used clothing for sale in the underdeveloped world, of being cult-like].
The New York State Education Department has approved the Unification Church’s Unification Theological Seminary application to offer the doctorate degree at its Barrytown campus, in Red Hook. The degree will, according to the church, provide students with “the opportunity to enhance and expand their ministerial skills.”
The Unification Church (UC) has been ordered by the Tokyo District Court to pay over $2 million to a woman who said the UC made her feel insecure and frightened her, forced her to donate money and purchase expensive products from the church, and threatened her by saying her “family line” would fall and she would “fall into hell.”
Black supremacist cult leader Yahweh Ben Yahweh, 70, dying of cancer while living alone in Miami, has asked for his parole to be terminated in order to “be able to die with dignity.” His lawyers say that keeping him under constant supervision, even as death is immanent, is worsening his disease.
International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) is new name for AFF (American Family Foundation)
In December 2004 AFF (American Family Foundation) officially changed its name to International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA). The change of name had been discussed for many years. Until a few years ago, those who felt that "AFF" had established an identity and was "known" had prevailed. However, several factors tilted the name-change decision in favor of those wanting a new name.
First of all, the constituency of the organization has changed over the past 25 years. Initially, nearly everybody who contacted AFF for help did so because he/she had a child involved in a cultic group. AFF's unique role was to bring these parents into contact with helping professionals, increasing numbers of whom became interested in and/or involved with AFF as time passed. By the early 1990s, however, the majority of people contacting the organization were former group members who had left their groups without an intervention ("walk-aways"). By the late 1990s, AFF and people associated with the organization had completed a sizeable body of research and an increasing number of researchers began to get involved with the organization. Moreover, at some recent conferences 25% of the attendees were from outside the U.S. Today, we speak of our four international constituencies of family members, former members, researchers, and helping professionals (including mental health, law, clergy, educators – some of whom are also former members of groups or family members of involved persons). Consequently, although "family" may have reflected the organization's focus in its early years, it no longer is THE focus, though it still remains a vital concern.
Most people favored "cultic studies" because it expressed the organization's interest areas without being so narrow and precise as to exclude phenomena that might be similar but not equivalent to those associated with the admittedly vague concept "cult." Many high-control or abusive groups from which people leave are not necessarily "cults" in a strict sense, but they may nonetheless resemble "cults" in some ways. "Cultic studies" also gives us a link to the past, for our journal has used that term since 1984 and our main Web site has used the term for the past several years.
The growth of the Web has also influenced the name change in that nearly everybody who contacts the organization today found out about us through a Web search. And these people rarely ever heard of "AFF" or "American Family Foundation." Therefore, a name that more accurately reflects what concerns the organization will more effectively "welcome" Web surfers than a name that many people associate with right wing political organizations, despite the fact that AFF/ICSA has always included people from across the political and religious spectrums.
We have begun modifying our Web sites to reflect the name change, a project that will take some time to complete. We hope you will be patient.
Don’t Forget to Refresh Your Browser
When you visit a Web site, such as www.culticstudiesreview.org, you should refresh your browser because sometimes your Internet browser shows you the Web page from “memory,” so to speak. The browser may have to be told to show any changes that have been made to the page since your last visit. In Microsoft’s Internet Explorer you do this by clicking “View” at the top of your screen and then clicking “Refresh” in the drop-down menu that comes up. Hence, if we send you a notice that there are new postings on www.culticstudiesreview.org, you may have to hit “Refresh” before your browser will show you the changes.
The information in this newsletter is designed to keep subscribers abreast of developments in the field and does not reflect ICSA's, its directors', staff's, or advisors' position(s) on issues or endorsement of events or points of view described in the newsletter. News summaries are time-sensitive; readers should keep in mind that subsequent news stories or events could present different findings.
 
WildeLover
WildeLover 2 years ago

some good reading here! :smile:
 
Apognophos
Apognophos 2 years ago

This is a pretty old news post to bump! While I'm here, I just want to say that this part is unintentionally hilarious:

Today, more than three decades after it arrived to make the city its international headquarters, Scientology has become an “indelible, if still mysterious, part of Clearwater.” Some say the organization has cleaned up the once-decrepit downtown but others believe retail merchants who aren’t Scientologists, and people going through Clearwater, avoid downtown because of the church’s dominance there, where “masses of uniformed people [Scientologists] walk the streets, wearing belted green, navy, or russet pants and crisp white or pale blue shirts,” and move “in purposeful strides, with the quickened footsteps of people with a mission.”


 

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Article: A Reason (and a Season) to Stop Shunning.
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 3 months ago
... the church of scientology, even the otherwise forgiving amish have made shunning a religious tenet to control ...

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International Cultic Studies newsletter- latest news on various cults.
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... new age and neopagan religions in america; sports in zion; crossing over: one womans escape from amish life; ...

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2 years ago
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My first Halloween Party.
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... in the dark made him look amish to me. he loled when i told him. i spontaneously broke out with my rendition of ...

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How Cultish are the JW's?
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... of unitarian universalism vs baptist vs amish vs charles manson.. where do you think jw's fall on the scale?.

Sabin
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5 months ago
James Mixon
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Using the internet can destroy your Faith.
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... of the world,. they will be viewed the same as amish.. they will bring down their own house as big as sh---t..

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Give Jehovah Only 6 Months!
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JWs as described by Cracked.
by Vidiot in Social
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 a year ago
... the article describes four different religions (rastafari, jws, amish, and scientology); jws are #3.. the jw ...

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Wrestling with change, technology, jealousy, and spiritual need...
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JWs as described by Cracked
by Vidiot a year ago 8 Replies latest a year ago   social humour
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Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-religions-youve-got-all-wrong-because-hollywood/
The article describes four different religions (Rastafari, JWs, Amish, and Scientology); JWs are #3.
The JW entry is pretty accurate (and as usual, funny), but surprisingly doesn't mention the two-witness-rule-related legal troubles the WT has been having lately.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago
I hate when people act like JWs must all be clamoring for one of the 144k spots in heaven. It's that sort of small misunderstanding that makes an active JW dismiss all the other criticism.
 +2 / -0
William Penwell
William Penwell a year ago
I just posted something on their page correcting that error.

 +2 / -0
Magnum
Magnum a year ago

I agree with OneEyedJoe. From the article:

They believe that there are exactly 144,000 people in history that God will bring to heaven in their living bodies after Armageddon, and their hope is to be one of those people, which raises the question: Is there an undercurrent of bitter competition among Witnesses to be one of the few out of the many millions to secure a seat on God's bus to eternity? If you don't find yourself in that exclusive crowd, the best you can ask for is to be resurrected on Earth after the end times are over. If you don't fall into one of those two categories, you are just plain dead.
Anybody who thinks that is not qualified to write an article "correcting" the view of JWs given by Hollywood. So he's "correcting" the view given by Hollywood? He needs to be corrected.
So they will go "to heaven in their living bodies"??? What??? What does that mean?
"Their hope is to be one of these people". That was never my hope. I wanted to live here on earth.
"Is there an undercurrent of bitter competition among Witnesses to be one of the [144,000]?" This guy is clueless and presumptuous. "Bitter competition" to be one of the 144,000? Most of the JWs I know had no desire to be one of the 144,000, and the few partakers in my area were viewed as nutjobs.
There is plenty of sound, accurate info against JWs that I acknowledge, but I do not like it when Hollywood, the writer of this article, or anybody else paints an inaccurate picture. I like facts, truth, accuracy, honesty.
 +2 / -0
InjusticeSystem
InjusticeSystem a year ago

I read this article this AM and thought it was great (other than the glaring 144,000 error of course), but now it is no longer on the site and a google search for the article just takes you to the Cracked homepage. Revision (hopefully)?
 
William Penwell
William Penwell a year ago


There is plenty of sound, accurate info against JWs that I acknowledge, but I do not like it when Hollywood, the writer of this article, or anybody else paints an inaccurate picture. I like facts, truth, accuracy, honesty.
These type of articles only goes to justifying in the minds of the R&F dub that all "wordily" article's are a bunch of lies.

I read this article this AM and thought it was great (other than the glaring 144,000 error of course), but now it is no longer on the site and a google search for the article just takes you to the Cracked homepage. Revision (hopefully)?
I just checked and it has been taken off. Hopefully it is for revisions and not being pressured into taking it off by one of those "cults" written in the article.
 +2 / -0
carla
carla a year ago

I understand Magnum's and others feelings about the mistake with the 144,000 but as a non jw and talking to many non jw's about the cult you must understand that non jw's cannot wrap their head around jw theology at all. When I tell a non jw about the 144,000 and the paradise earth scenario they will say, "you mean they don't want to go to heaven?!? no, you must mean that 144,000 get to go and the others get stuck on earth?" or something to that effect. They cannot understand that a jw may truly have no desire to go to heaven.

Boggles my mind too.
Then they start doing the math of only 144,000 and they start asking how that works out? ha, yeah well it doesn't does it? at least in the non jw mind.

The non jw's I refer to either are Christian or have a knowledge of Christianity growing up going to a traditional church of some sort. The jw and Christian view of heaven is miles apart as is their view of God, Christ, etc....

 
88JM
88JM a year ago

The writer discusses it being pulled here:
http://www.cracked.com/forums/topic/199423/scientology/20#msg3383057
 
William Penwell
William Penwell a year ago

Here is the part about the JW's in the article,
#3. Jehovah's Witnesses Are Dark As Hell


Jehovah's Witnesses are the people who knock on your door on Saturday afternoon to ask if you've heard The Good News, like they're going to tell you you just won the lottery. They're mostly harmless. They seem like pleasant enough people, even if they don't celebrate birthdays.
But beneath that skinny tie and loose-fit khakis lies one of the grimmest denominations of Christianity you'll find. Jehovah's Witnesses absolutely are not fucking around.
Medioimages/Photodisc/Photodisc/Getty Images
Cue Slayer's "Reign in Blood."
First of all, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the world is in the process of ending right now. And it started ending just over a century ago. Witness scripture is kind of on a fast track. Apparently, Satan rebelled and got kicked out of heaven on Oct. 1, 1914, and it's all gone downhill since then. It's like the gritty reboot of Christianity.
They also don't believe in an afterlife. They believe that there are exactly 144,000 people in history that God will bring to heaven in their living bodies after Armageddon, and their hope is to be one of those people, which raises the question: Is there an undercurrent of bitter competition among Witnesses to be one of the few out of the many millions to secure a seat on God's bus to eternity? If you don't find yourself in that exclusive crowd, the best you can ask for is to be resurrected on Earth after the end times are over. If you don't fall into one of those two categories, you are just plain dead.
grandeduc/iStock/Getty Images
Upside: no hell.
As mentioned, Jehovah's Witnesses are also opposed to holidays and birthdays, declaring them pagan. (Though they do encourage their followers to randomly give gifts to their kids to keep them from fleeing a religion free of gift-wrapped Ninja Turtle toys.) They're also opposed to military service, saluting the flag (which has caused some issues, as you can imagine), and singing national anthems. They're not big on depictions of the cross, either, because Witnesses believe that other churches' use of the cross is idolatry, and also that Jesus was killed on a single, upright post, instead of a traditional cross.
Wikimedia Commons
Makes a crucifix look like a luxury.
Basically, it all sounds really depressing. Plus, they don't allow blood transfusions under any circumstances, even if it could save a life. And they have to knock on your door. Jehovah's Witnesses are required to be evangelical. Every month, they have to submit "field service reports" detailing their efforts to convert people. If they don't, they're deemed "irregular." If they go six months without submitting one, they're "inactive." And Jehovah help you if you ever leave, because then you're labeled "wicked." And if a Jehovah's Witness happens to disagree with any of the rules or scripture, they're immediately declared to be "mentally diseased." Did I mention they don't fuck around?
They have a super dark outlook on everyone else, too. They think the U.N. is evil and part of the Antichrist (which is weird because they very briefly joined them). They also believe all other religions are wrong and their followers will be destroyed when Jesus comes back. So, yeah, not extremely friendly to outsiders.
And things aren't just rough inside the faith, either. They've had plenty of stuff to deal with from the outside. Jehovah's Witnesses were also one of the targets of the Nazis during the Holocaust. Since they refused military service, Hitler rounded them up and put them in concentration camps along with the Jews, where they were marked with purple triangles.
Wikimedia Commons
You can never again slam the door in their faces without feeling like a total asshole.
So next time you have them knocking on your door, just remember that they're actually Jesus' version of Kyle Reese, getting ready to unflinchingly fight a terrifying future war.
 

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Missing my Mom
by exwhyzee 2 years ago 21 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw experiences
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exwhyzee
exwhyzee 2 years ago

She and my Dad brought us to the U.S. from Ireland in hopes of giving the 4 of us kids a better life with more opportunities.
Mom went to school in her village where her mother (my grandmother) was the teacher and the Bible was part of the curriculum. They even used the name Jehovah. Her father was a Plymouth Brethern (think Amish or Quaker) who was shunned for the rest of his life for marrying my grandmother who wasn't "in the lord"...she belonged to Church of Ireland.
When the Witnesses came to the door after we arrived in the U.S, Mom was a shoe-in candidate for their recruitment. She was already used to crazy strict religions, knew and used Jehovah's name, was lonely for friends and family and these nice ladies at the door were her first contact with anyone. Poor Dad basically had his life hijacked. His wife and kids were gone three nighs a week. He put his foot down and tore up Moms books....even broke the coffee table in half when she woudn't stop Witnessing to him. He felt terrible afterward and promised to give it a try. He studied for years and beleived all of it but could never bring himself to "engage"in the door to door work which of course as we all know, is a requirement of baptisim, so they dropped him because the end was so close and they couldn't waste their time on anyone who wasn't progressing. (that's what Jesus did...right??)
Mom however progressed rapidly. Slam went the door on all the opportunities we came to America for. Those things weren't for JW's especially since the end was so close. Mom was very studious (a qualified school teacher herself) and was already streets ahead of her bible teacher right from the beginning. She was a natural at the doors. People were blown away by this tall beautiful lady with the lilting Irish accent who showed up at their door offering a free Bible Study. She wasted a lot of her time and was disapointed often when she'd realize that people were only showing intrest because she was a novelty. Anyway, she threw herself into the religion...even taught herself how to play the Harp beautifully so she could be in the Assembly Orchestra every year. She was quite a sight for sore eyes sitting up there behind a full sized guilded harp. People use to rush up to the Orchestra afterward (especially the little kids) just to talk to pretty the lady with the Harp.
The photo below was taken at our Kingdom Hall when she was 57 years old (same age I am now). Little did we know that she would pass away from Cancer within the year only a week before Mother's Day. (this is a tough time of year for us). If she'd have lived, I do beleive she'd have eventually left "The Truth". She'd get so annoyed whenever the Society would announce some kind of "New Light" at the assembly and everyone would just sit there with glazed over faces. I remember her looking around at everyone when they said in one such Assembly that the Society never indicated the tribulation would begin by any certian date. She said outloud " Oh...But They Did ! " It stumbled her for a time but she had us kids to think of and was convinced that there was nowhere else to go.
My Dad passed away a few years after she did due to lack of blood during a surgery. You see, the only thing he ever knew about Blood Transfusions was learned during his study with the Witnesses. He signed the "No Blood Directive" at their advice and wouldn't you know, this was the rare occasion where something went wrong and blood was needed.
The Brothers and Sisters were wonderful during Mom's illness and we held her Memorial at the Hall. When Dad died, they assured us kids he'd be in the New System because he died upholding Jehovah's Laws , however because he wasn't baptized, we couldn't hold his memorial at the Kingdom Hall.
I think had our Mom lived, this refusal for use of the Kingdom Hall and because of the allowance of Blood Fractions a few years after his death, she would have called it quits as a JW. She'd have realized that these faceless men in New York have no more inspiration from God than anybody else.
This post is a bit of a ramble thanks for reading this far....but today is once again Mother's Day and I'm feeling kinda' sad as I do each year, that we never did anything special specifically for our Mother. Everybody loves their Mom but mine truly was special somehow. She was like a beacon of light in our lives and as they say in Ireland " A bit of your own light goes out when your own Mother dies" .
My non JW Son and his GF came by today with flowers for my Wife but our "still in" JW Son and his Wife although very loving toward her, can't observe the occasion with us and I can't help but wonder how far into the future the JW influence will continue into the family line because my Mother responded that day at the door all those decades ago.


 
startingover
startingover 2 years ago

Thanks for sharing your story, when I met you I heard the story about your sons but not about your parents. Hearing your mother's background really did make her a shoe in. I recently discovered that I have a history of family members who came to this country being outcasts from their religious upbringing too and got involved as your mother did.
 
Quandry
Quandry 2 years ago

Your mother is indeed a beauty. I love to hear an Irish accent, also. I am sure that I, too, would be mesmerized, even though already a JW.
I'll bet you are right about her "waking up" eventually after all the changes in the generation, governing body, etc. and lack of responsibility for announcing (which they did-I was there) that the end would come in 1975.
My mother and father died before I fully "came out" of the organization. I kept them at arm's length over thirty years because, of course, they were "worldly" and I couln't be contaminated too much by them. When I think of all the Christmases and birthdays that we could have spent together, well, it's not easy to contemplate. I absolutely can't dwell on it too much or I'd have severe deperession.
I hate that organization.....
 
Iown Mylife
Iown Mylife 2 years ago

Your mom was absolutely gorgeous. So sorry you lost her when she was so young! Thank you for writing about her.
Marina
 
LoisLane looking for Superman
LoisLane looking for Superman 2 years ago


I cannot imagine what it would be like to have a beautiful, loving Mom in my home playing a full sized harp.
Heavenly. Did she play and sing any songs by Mary O'Hara, who sang and played on the smaller Irish harp?
So many twists and turns and "if only's... " in your story.
Thank you for sharing some of your life with us.
Maybe next year your son will wake up.
(((Big Hugs to you my friend)))  i
LoisLane
 
millie210
millie210 2 years ago

What a bright light your mother was!

I loved reading about her.
 
exwhyzee
exwhyzee 2 years ago


My mother and father died before I fully "came out" of the organization. I kept them at arm's length over thirty years because, of course, they were "worldly" and I couln't be contaminated too much by them
Such a shame Quandry....and the difficult part is there is no one who will take accountability for having caused this kind of damage. It's a faceless orginazation unless there is praise to be had. This is why so many in our position would love to see them publically brought down and go to almost crazy lengths sometimes just to be heard....to be recognized. Thanks for your kind words.

Thanks for sharing your story, when I met you I heard the story about your sons but not about your parents.
You're welcome Startingover...yes there's always more it seems. Once you wake up after having been in the religion enough decades, you realize that you've been been dismissing at a lot of things that have happened to you as being isolated incidents. When you finally dare to list them out one after another in cronological order it makes you realize how duped you were.
Immigrants such as my Mom and and your relatives as well as those isolated from their normal support system for some reason, are really vulnerable. Of course we all learned to view these ones as "sheeplike or crying and sighing ".
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

I was kind of "choked up" in a manly sort of way when I read this earlier. Couldn't think of anything to say.
Strength to you, buddy. Strength to you.
 
factfinder
factfinder 2 years ago

exwhyzee-
Thank you for your post. Please accept my sympathy at the loss of you mom and dad.
My dear Mom who I miss so much died 14 years ago so this is the 14th Mother's day without her and the cult would not let me do anything special for Mom on Mothers day of course. Why did I listen to those hateful, self righteous idiots?
It is a difficult time as you say. I understand. My Mom died April 28, 2000 and my Dad Jan. 10,2006.
And I agree, it is a shame no one will take responsibility for ruining our lives with their false teachings.
 
exwhyzee
exwhyzee 2 years ago

Thanks everyone for your responses. Looking back at my original post I realize it's pretty sad. We did have the sadness I spoke of but we also had moments of great fun all the same. I must tell you a few things I thought of later that brought a smile to my face.
My Mom, as bright as she was, could also be a bit absent minded. For instance:
◦She played the piano at the meetings. One evening in her rush to get to the Hall on time she forgot to put on her dress. She put her coat on straight over her slip and didn't discover it until she rushed into the Hall just as the meeting was starting, sat down at the piano and began unbuttoning her coat. Luckily she realized what she'd done just as she was about to throw her coat off her shoulders. We never let her live that one down.
◦She didn't know one kind of car from another. Color was the only way she could tell them apart. She was forever getting into other peoples cars that were the same color as ours. One time our whole family was waiting for her to come out of a store. We watched in delight as she got into the car parked across from us and demanded and explaination from it's occupants as to what they thought they were doing in our car. Then she saw all of us roaring with laughter in the next car over and had to do the walk of shame over to the right car.
◦Another time out in field service, the car group was parked in the street waiting for her to finish up at a door. She came down the driveway and got into the householders car and wondered where everyone had gone.
◦As kids we knew if we were going to be punished that if we got her laughing things would be ok. I remember her coming after me with a wooden spoon for being a smart @ss. She was swatting away at me, going around and around in circles. I began singing the Lucky Charms commercial with a mock Irish Leprechaun accent and doing a jig all around her .
Me: " Yer always after me lucky charms !
 Mom:" You'll be needin' more than Lucky Charms once I get a hold of ya"
Me: " Oh but they're magically Delicious "
Then we both burst out laughing and she , all out of breath said.
Mom: "Yes well you'll be laughin' on the other side of yer face as soon as your father gets home"



She often used some "expressions or figures of speech" from her part of Ireland that didn't always translate well in America.
For instance when we were all teenagers (ready to mock anything) we were in the living room and heard her on the phone talking to a "discouraged" sister from our Congregation who's name was Sandy.
The conversation was winding down and to our horror (and delight) instead of saying something like "Well, hang in there Sandy" or "Keep your chin up Sandy" she said " Well Sandy...keep your pecker up"
We all broke up laughing and heard Sandy shreaking with laughter on the other end of the phone. Poor Mom had no idea what she had just said because where she was from that was a completely normal thing to say. (You should have seen her face when we told her what that means in America.) I'm guessing ol' Sandy's depression lifted quite suddenly after that one.
To me she was just regualar ol' Mom. But I remember her comming to my school at the beginning of each year to explain the whole JW stance on holidays and birthdays and being so embarrassed by that yet at the same time so proud later when the teacher would remark on how beautiful or gracious she was or the kids would ask me if my Mom was a Movie star.
Mom would be in her late 70's now and who knows what trials she would be facing had she lived. Avoiding all that I guess was the only good thing about having lost her so early.
Anyway, like I said, we had moments of great fun and it helps to remember the good stuff.
 
TTATTelder
TTATTelder 2 years ago

I am sorry for your loss and your pain.
Nice to have the good memories though.
Thinking of you. Well wishes.
 
talesin
talesin 2 years ago

What a powerhouse of a mom you had. Thank you for sharing such treasured memories. xx
tal
 
sarahsmile
sarahsmile 2 years ago

Heap, it is that time of the year! Mothers Day! My mother past away about the same times as yours. I went to the kh a week before Mothers Day, here they call Mother in laws day, for her funeral talk.
It seems Mother Day is kinda of a gloomy time for many here with very good reason.
Maybe someday your other son will celebrate Mothers Day.
 
Zoos
Zoos 2 years ago

That's a great tribute to mom and dad. Sorry you're feeling down.

"Keep your pecker up!"
 
Steve_C
Steve_C 2 years ago

Thank you for sharing such wonderful (and funny) memories of your beautiful mom.
 
Mikado
Mikado 2 years ago

what a beautiful woman she was, you were lucky to have her....
 
zebagain
zebagain 2 years ago

My condolences to you and yours.
..and they did crow on about 1-9-7-5!
 
KateWild
KateWild 2 years ago

Thank you for your story about your mum. Here in the UK we had mothers day in March, I didn't realise America had a different date.
Your mothers story touched me. I too moved away from home and fell for all the love bombing that the JWs gave me. I am sorry she died so young of cancer. You do well to keep her memory alive and all the good she did as a mother. You are a good son.
Kate xx
 
cultBgone
cultBgone 2 years ago

Ex, you are a beautiful writer, thank you for sharing your stories. The love you have for your mom shines through every word.
 
exwhyzee
exwhyzee 2 years ago

Thanks again for your kind and most welcome comments everybody and for sharing a bit of your own stories as well.
 

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Missing my Mom
by exwhyzee 2 years ago 21 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw experiences
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Kikura
Kikura 2 years ago

your mum looks a beaut exwhyzee- thanks for sharing.
She looks so similar to my mum- and if you loved her half as much as I do mine, then I feel it.
Much Love.
 
chicken little
chicken little 2 years ago

Ahh, so nice to read your story and feel the love you had for your wonderful mum. Memories are like gems that shine bright and look more beautiful the more often we take them out and look at them. She sounds like she was great fun.
 

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Topic Summary
she and my dad brought us to the u.s. from ireland in hopes of giving the 4 of us kids a better life with more opportunities.. mom went to school in her village where her mother (my grandmother) was the teacher and the bible was part of the curriculum.
they even used the name jehovah.
her father was a plymouth brethern (think amish or quaker) who was shunned for the rest of his life for marrying my grandmother who wasn't "in the lord"...she belonged to church of ireland.. when the witnesses came to the door after we arrived in the u.s, mom was a shoe-in candidate for their recruitment.



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President Eisenhower and his Jehovah's Witness background.
by Joker10 13 years ago 14 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


President Eisenhower's JW Background.
Introduction
The story of the religious upbringing of the Eisenhower boys is critically important in understanding both the Watchtower and the boys themselves. The most dominant religious influence in the Eisenhower home from the time the boys were young was Watchtower theology and beliefs. Both parents were deeply involved and highly committed to much of the Watchtower theology throughout most of their children's formative years. Ida probably took the lead religiously, and David Eisenhower later became disillusioned with many Watchtower teachings; nonetheless the religion also influenced him later in life.
As adults, none of the Eisenhower boys formally followed the Witness teachings and theology and even tried to hide their Jehovah's Witness upbringing. The eldest son, Arthur, once stated that he could not accept the religious dogmas of his parents although he had "his mother's religion" in his heart (Kornitzer, 1955:64).
Although none of Mrs. Eisenhower's boys were what she and other Witnesses called "in the truth," she was hopeful that they would someday again embrace the religion in which they were raised. They openly rejected much of the Watchtower theology and medical ideas, especially its eschatology and millennial teachings. Nonetheless their Witness upbringing clearly influenced them. Even in later life, Dwight preferred "the informal church service" with "vigorous singing and vigorous preaching" like he grew up with (Dodd, 1963:233). Ida was relatively supportive of them during most of their careers, often stating that she was proud of them and their accomplishments, even those achievements that violated her Watchtower faith.



 Born on October 14, 1890 at Denison, Texas, Dwight D. Eisenhower became the thirty-fourth President of the United States. He served for two terms, from 1953 to 1961. His parents, David and Ida Eisenhower, owned a modest two-story white framed house on South 4th Street in Abilene, Kansas. Ida, a frugal hard-working woman, planted a large garden on their three acre lot to raise much of the family's produce needs. Neal claimed that the Eisenhower's were able to feed their growing family only because of this small farm which included cows, chickens, a smokehouse, fruit trees and a large vegetable garden (Neal, 1984). Dwight and his five brothers (Arthur (b. 1886), Roy (b. 1892), Earl (b. 1898), and Milton (b. 1899) plus David) were raised in Abilene, Kansas.
The values of Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower's parents and their home environment reflected themselves in the enormous success of all of their children. Probably the most dominant influence in the Eisenhower home was religion, primarily the Jehovah's Witnesses (known as Bible Students until 1931) and to a much lesser extent the River Brethren (Dodd, 1994).
Both parents were active in the Watchtower during most of the Eisenhower children's formative years. Eisenhower's mother, Ida Eisenhower, stated she became involved with the Watchtower in 1895 when she was 34 and Dwight was only five years old (Cole, 1955:190). Ida was baptized in 1898, meaning she was then a Jehovah's Witnesses minister.
Furthermore, Ida did not flirt with her involvement in the Witnesses as claimed by some but "was a faithful member of Jehovah's Witnesses for 50 years" (Fleming 1955:1). In Dwight's words she had "an inflexible loyalty to her religious convictions." According to the current Watchtower president Milton G. Henshel, "Ida Eisenhower was one of the most energetic [Watchtower] preachers in Abilene" (Fleming, 1955:1). The Watchtower Society had a major religious influence on Dwight until 1914 when he went to West Point (Dodd, 1959; Eisenhower, 1969).



Ida grew up in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley and originally attended a Lutheran Church. Hutchinson concluded Ida showed a "deep interest in religion from her earliest years" (1954:364). As a school girl Ida studied the Bible extensively and quoted freely from it--she once memorized 1,365 Biblical verses in six months, a fact cited with pride by several of her sons (Neal, 1984:13). The Sunday school records in the Lutheran Church at Mount Sidney near Staunton, Virginia, still contain her Bible memorizing record.
Eisenhower's parents met when they were both students at a small United Brethren college in Lecompton, Kansas called Lane University. After they married at Lecompton on September 23, 1885, they both dropped out of college (Hatch, 1944). Although they each completed only one term, their desire for education persisted--and reflected itself in their strong support for their sons' educations (Kornitzer, 1955). Evidently it was Ida's husband who introduced Ida to the group popularly called River Brethren partly because many of his relatives were involved in this community.
Neither David or Ida ever became deeply involved in this sect, although, it is often incorrectly stated that "Ida and David Eisenhower were River Brethren" (Miller, 1987:77-78). David's father Jacob and his brothers Ira and Abraham were members, but Ike's cousin, the Reverend Ray L. Witter, son of A.L. Witter, claimed that, although Ida and David came to Brethren services for several years, neither was ever an actual member nor did they regularly attend for any length of time (Miller, 1987:77-78; Dodd, 1959:221).
Close family friend R.C. Tonkin even stated that he "never knew any of the family to attend the River Brethren Church" (Tonkin, 1952:48). Both church records and oral history indicate that Dwight attended around 1906 for less than a year (Sider, 1994). Note: The term River Brethren is commonly used in the literature which discusses President Eisenhower, but the officially registered name during the Civil War and after is The Brethren in Christ Church. The term River Brethren is used here because virtually all references to Eisenhower's religion use this term. This term caught on because the first churches were located near rivers.
Evidence that Dwight may have occasionally attended Sunday school at Abilene's River Brethren Church includes the claim by John Dayhoff (listed in the 1906 church records as a member of Dwight's class) that he went to Sunday school with him. When Dwight did attend according to the regular teacher, Ida Hoffman, he evidently "never seemed to pay any attention or take any interest in the lesson" (Davis, 1952:49). Three of the Eisenhower children including Dwight are listed in the 1906 Souvenir Report of the Brethren Sunday School of Abilene, Kansas as involved in the church, but no mention is made of their parents. The listing of the three boys was likely partly due to the influence of Jacob, Dwight's grandfather, an active River Brethren Church minister until his death in May of 1906.
When David's Uncle Abraham, a self-taught veterinarian, decided to became an itinerant preacher he rented his house to David on the condition that Jacob could live there (Lyon, 1974; Dodd, 1963). David Eisenhower's family then moved into Abraham's house at 201 Southeast Fourth Street. David was also connected with the River Brethren through his employment at the church-owned Bella Springs Creamery. He worked at the Creamery from the time he moved to Abilene until he retired (Ambrose, 1983:19-20).
The many other relatives and friends who were River Brethren also likely had some influence on Dwight's religious development. He was physically and emotionally surrounded by aunts, uncles, grandfathers and a great-grandfather, most of whom were lay members or preachers in one of the Brethren or Holiness sects (Dodd, 1994). Gladys Dodd concluded the Brethren, whom Dwight joined on occasion for worship, "were a clannish lot, glued together by common ties of unique appearance and modes of baptism, abhorrence of war, and the like" (Dodd, 1994:1).




A major catalyst that precipitated Dwight's parents leaving the River Brethren and joining the Watchtower involved Ike's eight-month old brother, Paul, who died of diphtheria in 1895. This tragedy devastated the Eisenhower's, and the theological explanation that Paul is in heaven provided by the River Brethren did not satisfy them. At this time, three neighborhood women were able to comfort the Eisenhower's with the hope that they would soon see their son. This comfort was the Russellite teaching that death was merely sleep, and that all those in the grave will be resurrected shortly. In 1895 it was taught that this resurrection would occur in the new world which was expected to arrive before 1914, a mere nine years away then (Gruss, 1976). The three women - Mrs. Clara Witt, Mrs. Mary Thayer, and Mrs. Emma Holland - also sold Ida a set of volumes which were then titled Millennial Dawn (later renamed Studies in the Scriptures) and a subscription to Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, now named The Watchtower. Ida soon became involved and influenced her husband to join a short time later.
David and Ida's interest in Armageddon (the war the Watchtower teaches God will destroy all of the wicked, i.e. all non Witnesses) and the imminent return of Christ was highly influenced by the Watchtower preoccupation with end times events, especially the date of Armageddon. Likely, too, other acquaintances aside from Watchtower followers shared an interest in end-times date predicting including by their uncles Abraham and Ira, both of whom were evidently influenced by the end-times date speculation of the Tabor, Iowa evangelistic sect called the Hephzibah Faith Missionary Association (Dodd, 1994:2).
Dodd concluded from her extensive study of the Eisenhower family religious involvement that Ida soon became a "faithful and dedicated Witness and actively engaged as [a] colporteur [missionary] for the Watch Tower Society until her death" (Dodd, 1959:245). Soon the force that dominated the lives of everyone who lived in the Eisenhower frame house in Abilene was religion (Kornitzer, 1955:134). Dwight Eisenhower's faith was "rooted in his parents' Biblical heritage," and the Eisenhower boys' upbringing was "steeped" in religion (Fox 1969:907; Lyon, 1974:38).
The Eisenhower's held weekly Watchtower meetings in their parlor where the boys took turns reading from and discussing Watchtower publications and Scripture. Dwight Eisenhower was also involved in these studies--he claimed that he had read the Bible completely through twice before he was eighteen (Jameson, 1969:9). Ambrose concluded that the degree of religious involvement of the Eisenhower boys was so extensive that
David read from the Bible before meals, then asked a blessing. After dinner, he brought out the Bible again. When the boys grew old enough, they took turns reading. Ida organized meetings of the ... Watchtower Society, which met on Sundays in her parlor. She played her piano and led the singing. Neither David nor Ida ever smoked or drank, or played cards, or swore, or gambled (Ambrose 1983:19-20).
This upbringing no doubt had a major influence on all of the Eisenhower boys. R.G. Tonkin estimated that when the Eisenhower boys were young the size of the class was "about fifteen people" (1952:48).
The Watchtower followers met in Eisenhower's home until 1915 when the growth of the local congregation forced them to rent a local hall for their services. Later a large Watchtower meeting house (now called a Kingdom Hall) was built in Abilene (Dodd, 1959:244). The composition of early Russellite group in Abilene is described by Dodd as follows:
Mary Thayer first introduced the Watch Tower to the Eisenhower's. This company together with L.D. Toliver and the R.O. Southworths constituted the nucleus of the Abilene congregation of Russellites. From 1896 until 1915, the Bible Students ... met on Sunday afternoons at the Eisenhower home for their meetings. During most of this twenty year period, David Eisenhower (and occasionally L.D. Toliver) served the class as the Bible-study conductor, or "elder" as the group called its leader (1959:236).
Ida remained active in the Watchtower her whole life. In a letter to a fellow Witness Ida stated she has "been in the truth since ninety six [1896 and I] ... am still in ... it has been a comfort to me ... Naomi Engle stay [sic] with me and she is a witness too so my hope [sic] are good" (Fleming, 1955:3; Cole, 1955:192).



Dwight was also influenced by the religious ideas of his father, David Eisenhower. Although his early upbringing was in the River Brethren and he briefly attended the Lutheran, then later the Methodist church before and during his college days, he converted to the Watchtower a few years after his wife did. David Eisenhower actively served the Watchtower for many years as an elder and Bible study conductor, a role which he occasionally alternated with L.D. Toliver (Dodd, 1959:225). Neal even claimed that David Eisenhower was led by the Watchtower into "mysticism" because of David's use of "an enormous wall chart" of the Egyptian pyramids to predict the future. David taught his boys Watchtower last-days theology from this chart when they were growing up. The ten feet high and six feet wide chart "according to David . . . contained prophecies for the future as well as confirmation of biblical events. Captivated by the bizarre drawing . . . [Dwight] spent hours studying David's creation" (Neal, 1984:13).
This pyramid chart was of the Pyramid of Giza in Egypt and in fact was a central teaching of the Bible Students (Dodd, 1959:242). The chart was first published by the Watchtower in Millennial Dawn, Vol. 1 in 1898 and a large wall size version was available later. The chart played a prominent role in Watchtower theology for more than 35 years and was of such importance to David that his
. . . religious beliefs materialized in the form of an impressive (five or six feet high, ten feet long) wall chart of the Egyptian pyramids, by means of which he proved to his own satisfaction that the lines of the pyramids--outer dimensions, inner passageways, angles of chambers, and so on--prophesied later Biblical events and other events still in the future. As might be expected, this demonstration fascinated his children; the chart came to be one of the family's most prized possessions (Lyon, 1974:38).
Russell obtained from the Pyramid many of his prophesies, especially the year 1914 when the end of the world was expected to occur (Franz, 1993:20). The pyramid was also used to confirm Watchtower dispensational theology. Earl Eisenhower claimed that his father used the chart when he was in the Watchtower to prove "to his own satisfaction that the Bible was right in its prophecies" (Kornitzer, 1955:136).
The pyramid was of such major importance to early Watchtower theology that a huge ten foot concrete pyramid was selected as a fitting memorial to C. T. Russell when he died. It still stands close to Russell's grave near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Russell specifically condemned mysticism as demonism and taught that the pyramid had nothing to do with mysticism but was a second revelation, a "Bible in stone" which both added to and confirmed the Holy Scripture record (Russell, 1904:313-376).
A few years later, the second president of the Watchtower, Joseph F. Rutherford, condemned the pyramid teaching in no uncertain terms, one of many of his doctrinal changes that initiated several Watchtower schisms (Rutherford, 1928; Dodd, 1959:243). Dodd noted that the chart was still in the family home as late as 1944, but in 1957 she could no longer locate it in either the family home or the Eisenhower museum nearby and learned that the chart and other Watchtower effects were disposed of (Dodd, 1959:242-243). Dodd concluded the Watchtower items were probably destroyed by the family to reduce their embarrassment over their parents' involvement in the Jehovah's Witnesses. David's commitment to the Watchtower eventually changed and later he openly became an opposer.
Dodd concludes that "by 1919 David Eisenhower's interest in Russell had definitely waned and before his death in 1942 he is said to have renounced the doctrine of Russell" (1959:224). In a letter to Edward Ford, David stated that one factor causing his disillusionment with the Watchtower was the failure of their end of the world prophecies including 1914 and 1915 (Ford, 1995). After he left the Watchtower fellowship, his son Arthur claimed that David remained a student of the Scriptures, and his religious "reading habits were confined to the Bible, or anything related to the Bible" but not Watchtower literature. Although, the Bible was central to David Eisenhower's thinking, Milton added that his father also "read history, serious magazines, newspapers, and religion literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:261).
Edgar Eisenhower stated that his father left the Watchtower partly because he "couldn't go along with the sheer dogma that was so much a part of their thinking." His sons later adamantly claimed that David accompanied his wife on Watchtower activities primarily in an effort to appease her. Watchtower accounts usually referred only to Ida as a Witness, supporting the conclusion that David had left the Watchtower after 1915.
David Eisenhower died in March of 1942 at the age of 78. At this time Ida's nurse, Naomi Engle, was, "a strong-willed Witness who arranged a Jehovah's Witness funeral for David even though he had made it clear before his death that he was no longer a [Watchtower] believer" (Miller, 1987:80). The service was conducted by Witness James L. Thayer assisted by another Witness, Fred K. Southworth.




The Eisenhower's Watchtower involvement created many family conflicts. The Russellites taught that the Brethren and all other churches were not pleasing to God. Their second president, lawyer Joseph F. Rutherford (1916-1942), viciously attacked all religion with slogans such as all "religion is a snare and a racket" (Dodd, 1959). The Watchtower under Rutherford even taught all priests and ministers are of Satan leading their flocks to eternal damnation (Bergman, 1999). As a result of this and other teachings, Dodd observed that the River Brethren and other denominations at the turn of the century:
... were rabidly opposed to Russellism. As late as 1913 ... the Evangelical Visitor advertised a pamphlet entitled "The Blasphemous Religion which teaches the Annihilation of Jesus Christ" as the "best yet publication against Russellism" and the editor thought every River Brethren minister should read it. In 1928, one of the Brethren ministers, Abraham Eisenhower (David's brother), wrote to the Evangelical Visitor concerning Russellism: "Oh, fool-hearted nonsense. It is the devil's asbestos blanket to cover up the realities of a hell fire judgment. The word of God will tear off this infamous lie and expose the realities of an existence of life after death." This strong statement would reflect the general attitude of most of the Eisenhower's (Dodd, 1959:246).
The River Brethren have much in common with the Mennonites, and both were once called "the plain people" because of their simple lifestyle and dress. Although the sect has generally modernized and even in the early 1900s they no longer placed as much emphasis on details of clothing as formerly, they were still comparatively strict in the 1800s. Marriage could be dissolved only by death, hard physical work was a prime virtue, and after the turn of the century members could not use or even grow tobacco.
The early Watchtower teachings were also similar in some ways to the River Brethren, both of which have in major ways changed since the Eisenhower's became involved in 1895 (Dodd, 1959). Furthermore, "a number of the River Brethren had become followers of Russell" (Dodd, 1959:234). Although major differences existed especially in doctrine, the many similarities include both groups were pietistic Protestant conservative sects opposed to war, although on somewhat different grounds. Both sects also stressed the importance of Biblical study, both condemned many worldly habits and both were then very concerned about the last days prophesy and eschatology.




Dwights religious background is discussed by many writers, but most contain much misinformation. The misinformation about the religion of Dwight's parents is compounded by the fact that many Eisenhower biographies and even writings by the Eisenhower sons often declined to fully and honestly acknowledge their parents' actual religious affiliation (Fleming, 1955:1; Eisenhower, 1969). In a collection of personal recollections Edgar Eisenhower admitted only
Our parents' religious interests switched to a sect known as the Bible Students. The meetings were held at our house, and everyone made his own interpretation of the Scripture lessons. Mother played the piano, and they sang hymns before and after each meeting. It was a real old time prayer meeting. They talked to God, read Scriptures, and everyone got a chance to state his relationship with Him. Their ideas of religion were straightforward and simple. I have never forgotten those Scripture lessons, nor the influence they have had on my life. Simple people taking a simple approach to God. We couldn't have forgotten because mother impressed those creeds deep in our memories. Even after I had grown up, every letter I received from her, until the day she died, ended with a passage from the Bible (McCullun, 1960:21).
Even President Eisenhower's spiritual mentor and close friend, Billy Graham, was led to believe that Eisenhower's parents "had been River Brethren, a small but devoutly pious group in the Mennonite tradition." Many authors referred to the Watchtower faith only as "fundamentalists" or "Bible students," the latter term the Jehovah's Witnesses used only up until 1931 (Beschloss, 1990; Knorr, 1955). Lyon even stated
The specific nature of the religion is uncertain. The parents appear to have left the River Brethren for a more primitive and austere sect, something referred to as the Bible Students, and they would later gravitate to the evangelical sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses (Lyon, 1974:38).
Bela Kornitzer mentions only that the Eisenhower's were "Bible Students," had "fundamentalist religious beliefs" and studied "the writings of 'Pastor Russell'" but does not mention that Russell was the Watchtower founder (1955:14, 22, 32). (When Russell died in 1916 his writings were almost immediately replaced those of the new president, "Judge" J.F. Rutherford, resulting in several major schisms in the movement and their transformation into Jehovah's Witnesses).
Even works that include extensive discussions of Eisenhower's religious upbringing, such as the aforementioned Bela Kornitzer's book, discuss primarily his River Brethren religious background which had influenced Dwight primarily during his preschool years, if at all.
A Drew Pearson column stated that President Eisenhower's mother "once sold Bible tracts for the Jehovah's Witnesses," implying that she only flirted with the Witnesses and was never deeply involved (1956:6). Edmund Fuller and David Green, after claiming that Eisenhower's parents were River Brethren, noted that the President's grandfather was the Reverend Jacob Eisenhower, a Brethren minister, and that "the Eisenhower boys' religious training was strict, fundamentalist, and somewhat Puritanical. They were well schooled in Scripture" (1968:213).
Even more common is to totally omit the name of the predominant religion that Dwight was raised in and its importance in the Eisenhower boy's formative years (For example see Larson, 1968). In one of the most detailed histories of Eisenhower's early life, Davis said only that Ida later "sought out an even more 'primitive' and rigid Christianity" than River Brethren, leaving the reader up in the air as to what this group might be (1952:111). An extensive search by the author of the major depositories of President Eisenhower's letters and papers revealed he wrote virtually nothing about his feelings about the Watchtower or even religion in general except that reviewed here.
The Eisenhower boys' Watchtower background is not widely known or acknowledged likely also in part due to the antagonism many people had then, and still have today, against the Watchtower (Sellers, 1990). This antagonism is illustrated in the wording of a quote claiming that "late in life" Ida became, "of all things, a member of the sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses..." (Gunther, 1951:52).
Accounts of the Eisenhower family history commonly repeat the claim that Dwight's parents were River Brethren or were not directly involved with the Watchtower (Miller, 1944). Typical is a Time article that stated only that Ike's "parents were members of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect," adding that "along with their piety, the Eisenhower's gave their sons a creed of self-starting individualism" (Time, Apr. 4, 1969:20). Another account claims that Eisenhower's parents were members of a Protestant sect called the River Brethren and brought up their children in an old-fashioned atmosphere of puritanical morals. Prayer and Bible reading were a daily part of their lives. Violence was forbidden, though in a family of six boys the edict was a bit hard to enforce (Whitney, 1967:311).




According to Pearson, when confronted with his religious ancestry, David Eisenhower looked for a
delicate way to clear the family name of this affiliation. He is sensitive about the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in saluting the flag or serving under arms. At the same time, he doesn't want to appear prejudiced against any religious sect. Both Ike and his brother, Milton, have discussed the problem with spiritual advisors. But they haven't quite figured out how to disclaim Ida Eisenhower's relations with the Jehovah's Witnesses without offending the sect and perhaps stirring up charges of religious prejudice (Pearson, 1956:6).
Pearson also adds the often repeated claim that "Ida was influenced in her old age by a nurse who belonged to the sect. Being Bible-minded, old Mrs. Eisenhower cheerfully agreed to help the Jehovah's Witnesses peddle Bible tracts. Actually, both of Dwight's parents were staunch members of a small sect called River Brethren" (Pearson, 1956:6). Ironically in a Drew Pearson column published only three months earlier, Jack Anderson said, "Ike is strangely sensitive about his parents' religion. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, though the authorized biographies call them 'River Brethren....'
Both Dwight and his brother Milton checked the manuscript of Bela Kornitzer's book, 'Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers.' Afterward Milton privately asked Kornitzer to delete a reference to their parents' membership in the Witnesses sect" (Anderson, 1956:16b). In one of the last interviews given by the family, Milton said only that "we were raised as a fundamentalist family. Mother and father knew the Bible from one end to the other" (Quoted in Freeze, 1975:25). The Watchtower's response to this common omission was as follows:
Though Time magazine claimed Ida Stover Eisenhower was a member of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect, Time was merely continuing its consistent policy of slander in all that pertains to Jehovah's witnesses. She was never a River Brethren. She was one of Jehovah's witnesses. The first study in the Watchtower magazine in Abilene, Kans., started in her home in 1895. Her home was the meeting-place till 1915, when a hall was obtained. She continued a regular publisher with Jehovah's witnesses till 1942, when failing health rendered her inactive; but she remained a staunch believer (Knorr, 1946:7).
Kornitzer specifically endeavored to determine the source of Dwight Eisenhower's "greatness," concluding that it came from his family and their values. In Dwight's words, his mother was "deeply religious," and he once stated that his mother
had gravitated toward a local group known as The Bible Class. In this group, which had no church minister, she was happy. Sunday meetings were always held in the homes of members, including ours. The unusual program of worship included hymns, for which mother played the piano, and prayers, with the rest of the time devoted to group discussion of a selected chapter of the Bible (1967:305)..
Although the group preferred the label Bible Students before 1931, when they met they usually did not study the Bible but primarily Watchtower publications.
In the early 1900s the study focus was a set of books called Studies in the Scriptures written by C.T. Russell and his wife, and also the current issues of The Watchtower magazine. Although the Eisenhower boys usually skirted around the issue of their religious upbringing, Dwight Eisenhower once openly acknowledged that the group his parents were involved with was the Jehovah's Witnesses:
there was, eventually, a kind of loose association with similar groups throughout the country ... chiefly through a subscription to a religious periodical, The Watchtower. After I left home for the Army, these groups were drawn closer together and finally adopted the name of Jehovah's Witnesses (1967:305).
Eisenhower then adds, "They were true conscientious objectors to war. Though none of her sons could accept her conviction in this matter, she refused to try to push her beliefs on us just as she refused to modify her own" (1967:305). Conversely Dwight's mother was not happy about her sons violation of Watchtower beliefs especially their attitudes toward war.
Many reporters termed Dwight's mother "a religious pacifist" (for example see Life Magazine, 1969) as Dwight did. The Watchtower has established in the courts that they are not pacifists but conscientious objectors, opposed only to wars initiated and carried out by humans. The Watchtower teaches that involvement in war, except those that God wants us to fight, is not only a violation of God's law that "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shall love thy neighbor" but is also wrong because Watchtower doctrine considers it an improper use of time in these last days before Armageddon. They taught their followers to be dedicated to converting others before the end, which since the late 1800s has been taught by the Watchtower to be "just around the corner." They are in their words "conditional pacifists" although the Watchtower often argues against all war on pacifist grounds. In Dwight's words, his mother "was opposed to militarism because of her religious beliefs" (Kornitzer, 1955:87).
Jehovah's Witnesses then also eschewed all political involvement because they felt--and still teach today--that the soon-to-be-established kingdom of God on earth--the millennium--was the only solution to all worldly problems (Kornitzer, 1955:276). In Milton Eisenhower's words, his parents were as good Jehovah's Witnesses "more concerned with the millennium which, unfortunately, hadn't come in their day, than they were with contemporary social institutions" (Kornitzer, 1955:278). All of the Eisenhower boys disagreed with the Watchtower view in this area. Milton also stated his parents were aloof from politics but ". . . as I became older, I used to hold many conversations with them in a futile attempt to show them that they were wrong" (Kornitzer, 1955:277). Of course, as Watchtower followers, Ida and, until he left, David were not allowed to be involved in politics--even voting became a disfellowshipping offense in the 1940's.
Often Ida's alleged pacifism is given as the reason for her opposition to Ike's military career when the actual reason was Watchtower theology. An example was her reaction to his leaving for West Point in the summer of 1911, as reported by Pickett. At this time Dwight's
. . . mother and twelve-year-old brother Milton were the only family members there to see him off. His mother was unable to say a thing, Milton remembered, "I went out on the west porch with mother as Ike started uptown, carrying his suitcase, to take the train. Mother stood there like a stone statue and I stood right by her until Ike was out of sight. Then she came in and went to her room and bawled" (Pickett, 1995:8).
Alden Hatch, after recounting the consternation Ida had over Dwight attending West Point--to the extent she hoped he would fail the entrance exam so he would not go, claims that the reason was her "abhorrence to war" (Hatch, 1944:21). Ida's opposition was actually for several reasons, and consequently she hid from her sons her "weakened faith" and "grief" that resulted from Ike's pursuing a military career. The Eisenhower sons' embarrassment about their parents' involvement in the Watchtower is vividly revealed in the following account:
Both Ida and David, but especially Ida, were avid readers of The Watchtower, and at the time of Ida's death there was a fifty-year collection in the house on South East Fourth Street. The publication had arrived by mail from 1896 to 1946. It was Milton who bundled up the fifty-year collection of the presumably embarrassing magazines and got them out of the Eisenhower house and away from the eyes of reporters. He gave them to a neighbor and Witness (Miller, 1987:79).
The neighbor was Mrs. James L. Thayer, one of the women that originally converted Mrs. Eisenhower. The disposal of Dwight's parent's Watchtower literature, charts and other Watchtower items was only one indication of the many conflicts the Eisenhower boys likely experienced over their parent's esoteric religion. These conflicts may be one reason why none of them ever became involved in the Watchtower or even a fundamentalist church.
Another account illustrates the press' tendency to avoid revealing the Eisenhower parents' Watchtower involvement. When Ike graduated from West Point Military Academy in 1915, his mother presented to him a copy of the American Standard version of the Bible used by the Watchtower because it consistently used the term "Jehovah" for God. When Ike was sworn in as president for his second term, this Bible was used (see photograph London Daily News Feb 2, 1957:1). The press reports of this account, though, usually did not quote the words the President actually read which were "Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah" but instead substituting the word "Lord" for "Jehovah." The Watchtower concluded that this misquote was an attempt to distance President Eisenhower from his parents' faith by not using a term that was at this time intimately connected with the Jehovah's Witnesses sect (Knorr, 1957:323-324).
Why were the Eisenhower's (and the press) so reticent about honestly revealing the religion of their parents? One reason is revealed in an article published in the official Watchtower magazine called Awake!
On September 11, 1946, Mrs. Ida Stover Eisenhower died in Abilene, Kans. Private services were conducted at the home, and public services were handled by an army chaplain from Ft. Riley. Was that in respect for Mrs. Eisenhower? Pallbearers were three American Legionnaires and three Veterans of Foreign Wars. Was that appropriate? ... In 1942 her husband, also one of Jehovah's witnesses, died. One of Jehovah's witnesses preached the funeral service. Mrs. I.S. Eisenhower, like all Jehovah's witnesses, believed religion a racket and the clergy in general, including army chaplains, to be hypocrites. She harbored no special pride for "General Ike;" she was opposed to his West Point appointment. It was gross disrespect to the deceased for an army chaplain to officiate at the funeral.
As for the pallbearers. The American Legion particularly, and also the Veterans of Foreign Wars, are repeatedly ringleaders in mob violence against Jehovah's witnesses. Hundreds of instances could be cited, but illustrative is the one occurring the Sunday before Mrs. Eisenhower's death, in near-by Iowa. There war veterans broke up a public Bible meeting of Jehovah's witnesses, doing much physical violence. Hardly appropriate, then, was it, for such to act as pallbearers? Only death could keep the body of Mrs. Eisenhower from walking away from a funeral so disrespectful of all that she stood for (Knorr, 1946:7).
Unfortunately, this article did not discuss how the Watchtower's teachings and policy on military service, education and involvement in "false religion" contributed to the conflicts noted in the above quote. Dwight's religious orientation as an adult was described as "moderate and tolerant, simple and firm," quite in contrast to the confrontative, pugnacious Watchtower sect of the first half of this century (Fox, 1969:907).
Other reasons for the press' and the Eisenhower boys' lack of honesty about their Watchtower background include embarrassment over the Watchtower's opposition to the flag salute and all patriotic activities, vaccinations and medicine in general, the germ theory and their advocating many ineffectual medical "cures" including phrenology, radio solar pads, radiesthesia, radionics, iridiagnosis, the grape cure, and their staunch opposition to the use of aluminum cooking utensils and Fluoridation of drinking water. Dwight Eisenhower had good reasons to hide his Watchtower background when he ran for president. Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president:
Both Eisenhower and Stevenson were vigorously challenged by some Protestant[s]...for their religious ties. The association of Eisenhower's mother with the Jehovah's Witnesses was exploited to make the GOP candidate appear as an "anti-Christian cultist" and a "foe of patriotism" (Roy, 1953).
The thesis that the Eisenhower boys were embarrassed by their parents' Watchtower involvement is supported by the problem which developed when the Watchtower tried to exploit Mrs. Eisenhower's name for their advantage. One reason for the Eisenhower boys' concern was because Jehovah's Witnesses were generally scorned by most churches and society in general, especially at the turn of the century. Virtually no college-educated people were members, and the education level even today is still extremely low, among the lowest of all religious denominations (Cosmin and Lachman, 1993). A problem that the Eisenhower boys faced in the 1940s, according to Edgar Eisenhower, was that "the deep, sincere and even evangelical religious fervor" of their mother was used by the Watchtower "to exploit her in her old age" (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This concern prompted Edgar to write a letter in 1944 to the Jehovah's Witness who was caring for his mother when she was 82. As was the practice then for all members, young and old--and as Jehovah's Witnesses today are well known for-- Witnesses go from door-to-door and "witness" on the street corners, primarily by selling their literature. Edgar evidently felt that the Eisenhower name was being exploited in this work and objected to his mother "being taken out of the home and used for the purpose of distributing [Watchtower] religious literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:139). Edgar added that he was "willing to fight" for his mother's "right to continue to believe as she saw fit, but ... she could be easily and mistakenly influenced in performing any service which would be represented to her as helpful to the advancement of religious beliefs" of the Watchtower (Kornitzer, 1955:139). His concern was that his mother should no longer
be taken from place to place and exhibited as the mother of General Eisenhower--solely for the purpose of attempting to influence anyone [to accept the Watchtower beliefs] ... I want mother shielded and protected and not exposed or exhibited ... mother's home should be maintained solely for her intimate friends and relatives and ... no stranger should be permitted to live in the house regardless of who he may be ... (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This problem was eventually solved by removing the Jehovah's Witness who was then caring for Ida Eisenhower, Naomi Engle, a lifelong friend and certainly no stranger to Ida, from Ida's home and replacing her with a Mrs. Robinson, a non-Witness. Would Edgar have objected if Ida was allowed to use the Eisenhower name for a cause such as education, health or even a church such as the Lutherans or Methodists? Part of what he likely objected to was what he felt was the Watchtower exploiting her to spread a set of beliefs that he and his brothers firmly and openly disagreed with, i.e., the Watchtower Millennial theology.




When researching Eisenhower's religion "Since so little original documentation exists, most historians have relied on interviews with persons who knew David and Ida" (Branigar 1994:1). Of the large amount of information available, one has to determine which conclusions were historically accurate--sometimes no easy task. One of the most reliable sources is Gladys Dodd's thesis because she used scores of personal interviews with the family, many of whom she was personally acquainted with, to study the religious background of the Eisenhower family in the late 1950s. Unfortunately, some Watchtower sources are questionable.
Dr. Holt, the director of the Dwight D. Eisenhower library in Abilene, Kansas indicates that the Watchtower may be involved in passing documents off as real which are evidently forgeries (1999). Specifically, interviews with family members has led J. Earl Endacott, a former Eisenhower library curator, to conclude that it was a 1944 incident which led to the dismissal of Ida's nurse, Mrs. Engle, who was then an active Jehovah's Witness.
The source of this information was Mrs. Robinson, who became Ida's nurse after Engle's dismissal. She claimed that Engle and another Witness conned Ida to write her name several times on a blank sheet of paper under the pretense of giving her "practice." According to Mrs. Robinson, the most legible signature was then physically cut from the sheet and pasted on the bottom of the letter to Mr. Boeckel which was not written by Mrs. Eisenhower but by Engle. Endacott concluded Engle had "more loyalty to the Witnesses" than to the Eisenhower's to whom she was distantly related. Later "in one of her lucid moments Ida told Mrs. Robinson what had happened and gave the sheet with the cut out name to her. When the Eisenhower foundation took over the home, Mrs. Robinson told me the story and gave me the sheet which I still have" (Endacott, N.D.).
This letter she allegedly wrote was to a Richard Boeckel, a young man who had become a Jehovah's Witness while still in the army (Boeckel, 1980). In August of 1944 Boeckel attended a Watchtower assembly in Denver where he met Lotta Thayer, Ida's neighbor from Abilene. In his conversations with her, Boeckel explained the difficulty of being a Witness in a military environment. Thayer then reportedly told him that her neighbor was General Eisenhower's mother, and added that "she's one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and asked Boeckel if he would like her to write to him (Knorr, 1980:24-29). Boeckel wrote Ida, and part of the letter Ida allegedly wrote back to him stated,
A friend returning from the United Announcers Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, informs me of meeting you there. I rejoice with you in your privilege of attending such convention. It has been my good fortune in the years gone by to attend these meetings of those faithfully proclaiming the name of Jehovah and his glorious kingdom which shortly now will pour out its rich blessings all over the earth. My friend informs me of your desire to have a word from General Eisenhower's mother whom you have been told is one of the witnesses of Jehovah. I am indeed such and what a glorious privilege it has been in associating with [other Witnesses]. . . . Generally I have refused such requests because of my desire to avoid all publicity. However, because you are a person of good will towards Jehovah God and His glorious Theocracy I am very happy to write you. . . . It was always my desire and my effort to raise my boys in the knowledge of and to reverence their Creator. My prayer is that they all may anchor their hope in the New World, the central feature of which is the Kingdom for which all good people have been praying the past two thousand years. I feel that Dwight my third son will always strive to do his duty with integrity as he sees such duty. I mention him in particular because of your expressed interest in him. And so as the mother of General Eisenhower and as a Witness of and for the Great Jehovah of Hosts (I have been such for the past 49 years) I am pleased to write you and to urge you to faithfulness, as a companion of and servant with those who "keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Quoted in Cole, 1955:194-195).
To encourage Boeckel to accept Watchtower doctrines, the letter mentioned several current events which the Watchtower then taught was evidence that Armageddon would occur very soon, concluding that "Surely this portends that very soon the glorious Theocracy, the long promised kingdom of Jehovah...will rule the entire earth and pour out manifold blessings upon all peoples who are of good will towards Him. All others will be removed [killed at Armageddon]. Again, may I urge your ever faithfulness to these 'Higher Powers' and to the New World now so very near." The letter dated August 20, 1944, evidently had the taped signature "Ida Eisenhower" affixed to it and closed with "Respectfully yours in hope of and as a fighter for the New World" (Cole, 1955:191).
This Ida Eisenhower letter, Endacott concluded, was "not in the words of Ida, who at the time could hardly write her own name" and evidentially she was not always mentally alert although her physical health was good. Her memory started to fail soon after her husband died and was at times so poor that she could not even remember her own son's names (Eisenhower, 1974:188). Furthermore, this letter is very well written quite in contrast to the letter she wrote in her own hand dated 1943 (see Cole 1955). When the Eisenhower sons found out about this event (evidentially a reporter published the letter putatively written by Ida Eisenhower to Mr. Boeckel) and other similar incidences, they wrote to Engle exploiting Ida (Kornitzer 1955). The letter was evidentially ignored by Engle and then Milton was given the task of dismissing her. At this time, Milton hired non-Witness Mrs. Robinson to help take care of Ida.
It would appear that Richard Boeckel would immediately be suspicious when he received the letter with Mrs. Eisenhower's signature obviously taped on it. He should have confirmed that the letter was genuine before he made claims about receiving a letter from Ida Eisenhower. His story and a photo reproduction of the letter was published in Marley Cole's book Jehovah's Witnesses and other sources, and Boeckel repeated the claims about the letter in his life story published in the October 15, 1980 Watchtower. At the minimum, the Watchtower Society, Mr. Boeckel, and Marley Cole have unethically presented a letter as genuine evidentially without verification. If Mrs. Eisenhower's letter is verified to be valid, the allegations that her letter is a forgery should be squashed. So far the Watchtower has not answered several inquiries about this matter. The Eisenhower museum has agreed to pay for a handwriting expert to examine the letter, but all attempts to obtain the cooperation of the Watchtower have so-far failed.
Merle Miller related an experience involving Boeckel and this letter which reveals the irony of Eisenhower's mother's faith:
. . . one time when Boeckel refused, as a good Witness must, to salute his superior officers at Fort Warren, he said that he was a Witness and that his refusal to salute was "based on my understanding of the Bible." One officer reportedly said, "General Eisenhower ought to line you Jehovah's Witnesses up and shoot you all!" Boeckel then, again according to The Watchtower, said, "'Do you think he would shoot his own mother, sir?' "'What do you mean by that?' "Reaching in my pocket and taking out Sister Eisenhower's letter, I handed it to him. . . . He read the letter ... [and] handed it back to me. 'Get back to ranks,' he said, 'I don't want to get mixed up with the General's mother'"(Miller, 1987:79).
Suspicion that the letter was a forgery is also supported by a Watchtower teaching called The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine. The Theocratic Warfare doctrine essentially teaches that it is appropriate to withhold the truth from "people who are not entitled to it" to further the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1992; Franz, 1971:1060-1061). Reed defines Theocratic War Strategy as the approval to lie "to outsiders when deemed necessary" and also to deceive outsiders to advance the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1995:40). In the words of Kotwall the Watchtower teaches that "to lie and deceive in the interest of their religion is Scripturally approved" (Kotwall, 1997:1). Jehovah's Witnesses do not always lie outright, but they often lie according to the court's definition--not telling "the whole truth and nothing but the truth," which means the court requires the whole story, not half-truths or deception (Bergman 1998). In the words of Raines, theocratic warfare in practice means "deceiving" to protect and advance the interests of "God's people" especially God's "organization the Watchtower" (Raines, 1996:20).
Nonetheless I found no evidence that either parent was not a devoted Watchtower adherent when the Eisenhower boys were raised. If Mrs. Eisenhower's allegiance to the Watchtower waned as she got older, this would not affect the fact that her boys were raised as Witnesses, but would help us to better understand Ida Eisenhower.
In conclusion, Ida probably did not resign from the Witnesses and still saw herself as one. The reasons for concluding Ida Eisenhower mailed other letters at about the same time that she allegedly mentioned her Witness commitment to Boeckel include a handwritten letter to fellow Witness Mrs. H. I. Lawson of Long Island, N.Y., in 1943 (Cole, 1955). Although this letter could be a forgery as well, no one has voiced this concern yet.
In addition, a front page Wichita Beacon (April 1943) article about Ida's Watchtower assembly attendance gave no indication that she was then disenchanted with Jehovah's Witnesses. The article stated that "the 82 year old mother of Americas famous military leader. . . was the center of attraction at the meeting Sunday, and her name was heard in just about every conversation, speech and discussion. The program's subject was 'how to become a good Jehovah's Witness." No evidence exists that only a year later she rejected Watchtower teachings or had resigned. These facts do not prove the letter is not a forgery, nor do they demonstrate the commonly alleged view that she became a Witness only in her later years when she was becoming senile, as often implied by many authors.
Conversely, some hints exists that Mrs. Eisenhower's loyalty to the Watchtower, in contrast to the common perception, waned as she grew older. All of her sons left the Watchtower, as did her husband, all whom became opposed to many of their teachings. Furthermore, when J. F. Rutherford became the Watchtower president in 1916, their teachings changed drastically. Rutherford introduced many - if not most - of their more objectionable teachings such as their opposition to medicine, flag salute, vaccines, blood transfusions, and all other religions, all of which Rutherford regarded as "a snare and a racket" and of Satan. If Rutherford had retained the teachings of the first president, C.T. Russell, I believe the Eisenhower family concerns about the Watchtower would not have been nearly as great.
On the other hand, very good reasons existed for the Eisenhower family to attempt to distance themselves from the Watchtower--reasons which were made clear by some of Eisenhower's opponents, some evidently who planned to use this information to hurt Eisenhower's political career. As noted above, Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president.




 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago


Holy Mackral ! Did you write this article. It's very interesting. I always wondered what the real scoop was about Pres.Eisenhower, now I know. Do you have the Bibliography of this article? I'd like to look into those sources, especially Ike's brothers work. Very very interesting. Thanks for posting!

"Our day will come old friend, just not today."
 
cat1759
cat1759 13 years ago


This was an excellent read!
I thought the double standards were so cute.
Cathy
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


Panda, these are the sources:

References
Ambrose, Stephen E. The Supreme Commander: The War Years of General Dwight D. Eisenhower . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1970.
_________. Eisenhower: 1893-1952 . New York: Simon and Schuster, 1983.
Anderson, Jack. "Is His Vote Record Related To Payroll?" Merry-Go-Round in the Detroit Free Press (Sept. 23, 1956),16b.
Bergman, Jerry. "The Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses Branch of Protestantism" in America's Alternative Religions , Ed. by Timothy White Albany, NY: State University of New Press, 1995, p. 33-46.
_________. The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine: Why Jehovah's Witnesses Lie in Court . Clayton, CA: Witness Inc 1998.
Beschloss, Michael R. Eisenhower, A Centennial Life . New York: Harper Collins 1990.
Boeckel, Richard A. "A Soldier who Became a Preacher" The Watchtower ( Oct. 15, 1980), 24-29.
Bonnell, John Sutherland. Presidential Profiles; Religion in the Life of American Presidents . (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1971).
Branigar, Thomas. Letter to the author, August 9, 1994
Cole, Marley. Jehovah's Witnesses, The New World Society  New York: Vantage Press 1955.
Cosmin, Barry A. and Seymour P. Lachman. One Nation Under God . New York: Harmony Books, 1993.
Davis, Kenneth , Soldier of Democracy; A Biography of Dwight Eisenhower  Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1952 originally published in 1945
Dodd, Gladys. The Religious Background of the Eisenhower Family . Bachelor of Divinity Thesis, Nazarene Theology Seminary, Merriam, Kans. 1959.
_________. "The Early Career of Abraham L. Eisenhower, Pioneer Preacher," Kansas Historical Quarterly  29 (Autumn 1963).
_________. Letter from author dated Oct. 8, 1994.
Endacott, J. Earl. Records, Documentary Historical Series , Box 4, Eisenhower Library
Eisenhower, Dwight D. At Ease, Stories I tell to Friends  Garden City, NJ: Doubleday, 1967.
_________. The Eisenhower Diaries (Robert H. Fervell, Ed.). New York: W.W. Norton Co., 1981.
Eisenhower, Milton S. The President is Calling  GardenCity, New York: Doubleday, 1974.
Fleming, Helen. "Ike's Mom Jehovah Witness 50 yrs., Say group leaders; preacher from door to door in Abilene, Director reports."  Chicago Daily News , June 25, 1955, pp. 1,3.
Ford, Edward , Jr. correspondence to author dated Sept. 1995.
Fox, Frederick. "Pro Ike." Christian Century . July 2,1969 Vol. 86.
Franz, Frederick (Ed.). Aid to Bible Understanding. New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1971.
________. J ehovah's Witnesses; Proclaimers of God's Kingdom . Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania 1993).
Freese, Arthur. "Man of the 20th century" (Interview with Milton Eisenhower) Modern Maturity. Dec-Jan., 1975 17(6):25-28).
Fuller, Edmund and David E. Green. God in the White House; The Faiths of American Presidents . New York: Crown Publishers, Inc., 1968.
Gammon, Roland (Ed.). Eisenhower speech reprinted in (Roland Gammon Ed.) Al l Believers Are Brothers . New York: Doubleday, Garden City, 1969), 3-4.
Graham, Billy. Just As I Am; The Autobiography of Billy Graham. (San Francisco: Harper 1997), chapter 12 "The General who Became President" 188 - 206.
Gruss, Edmond. T he Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation . Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976.
Gunther, John. Eisenhower, The Man and the Symbol . Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1951.
Gustafson, Merlin. "Religion of a President." Christian Century . (April 30, 1969), 610-613.
Hatch, Alden. General Ike; A Biography of Dwight D. Eisenhower . Chicago, IL: Consolidated Book Publishers, 1944.
Hendon, David and James Kennedy. "Civil Religion" Journal of Church and State. 391 39 (2) 1997, 390-391.
Hutchinson, Paul. "The President's religious faith," Christian Century . March 24, 1954 Vol 71, 364; reprinted in Life March 22, 1954 Vol. 36: 150+
Henshel, Milton G. Chicago Daily News . June 25,1955, 1, 3
Jameson, Henery B. "Ike buried in Abilene; Massive crowd for Eisenhower funeral" Abilene Reflector--Chronicle , Memorial Ed. 1969.
Knorr, N.H. "Religion Void of Principle." Awake!  Oct 22,1946, 27(20): 323-324.
_________. "Eisenhower book stirs a controversy: conceals fact that parents were Jehovah's Witnesses." Awake!  ( Sept. 22, 1955. 36(18), 3-4.
_________. "Appreciated Parents" Awake! Ap. 22, 1975, 56(8):30.
_________. "Conspiracy against Jehovah's name" Watchtower 78(11): 323-324. June 1, 1957
Kornitzer, Bela. The Great American Heritage; The Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers . New York: Farrar Straus, and Cudahy, 1955.
Kotwall, B. J. "The Watchtower Society Encourages Lying." The Investigator Magazine Australia 1997.
Larson, Arthur. E isenhower; The President Nobody Knew . New York: Charles Scribners Sons, 1968.
Lyon, Peter. Eisenhower; Portrait of the Hero . Boston: Little, Brown and Co 1974.
McCullun, John Six Roads From Abilene, Some Personal Recollections of Edgar Eisenhower . Seattle, Wash.: Wood and Reber, Inc., 1960.
Miller, Francis Trevelyn. Eisenhower, Man and Soldier . (Philadelphia: John C. Winston Company, 1944)
Miller, Merle. Ike the Soldier; As They Knew Him. New York: Putnam's Sons, 1987.
Neal, Steve. The Eisenhower's . Lawrence, Kans: University Press of Kansas 1984.
Nevin, David. "Home to Abilene." Life  (April 11,1969 Vol 66 No 14 ), 24.
Pearson, Drew. "Eisenhower's seek to clear mother of affiliation with religious sect." Merry-Go-Roun d in the Defiance Crescent News . (Dec. 19, 1956): 6.
Pickett, William. Dwight David Eisenhower and American Power . Wheeling, Ill.:Harland Davidson, Inc., 1995.
Raines, Ken. "Deception by JWs in Court, OK with Judge?" JW Research Journal . 3(2) Spring 1996, p. 20.
Reed, David. "Court Rules; Watchtower Booklet Recommends 'Untrue' Testimony Under Oath." C omments from the Friends , Spring, 1992.
_______. Dictionary of J.W. eez: The Loaded Language Jehovah's Witnesses Speak . (Assonet, MA.: Comments from the Friends, 1995): 40.
Ralph Lord, Roy. Apostles of Discord; A Study of Organized Bigotry and Disruption on the Fringes of Protestantism . Boston: Beach Press, 1953.
Russell, Charles Taze. Studies in the Scriptures; Series III, Thy Kingdom Come Chapter 10, "The Testimony of God's Stone Witness and Prophet, The Great Pyramid in Egypt," Allegheny, PA: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 1904.
________. Studies in the Scriptures; Series I, The Plan of the Ages . New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1914 Front page.
Rutherford, Joseph. "The Alter in Egypt." Pt. 1 The Watch Tower . 49(22):339-345, Nov. 15, 1928; Pt. II. Dec. 1, 1928, 49(23):355-362).
Sellers, Ron. How Americans View Various Religious Groups . Report by Barna Research Group, 1990
Sider, Morris E. . Archivist for the Brethren in Christ Church, Messiah College, Grantham, PA. Interviews of various dates, and correspondence to the author dated October 24, 1994.
Taylor, Allan (Ed.). What Eisenhower Thinks . New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company.
Tonkin, R.G. "I grew up with Eisenhower." Saturday Evening Post ,May 3,1952.
Time Eisenhower: Soldier of peace." April 4, 1969:19-25.
Time "I Chose My Way." Sept 23, 1946: 27.
Whitney, David C. The American Presidents . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1967.
Watchtower Publication Awake! "Should Christians be Pacifists" (May 8, 1997, 78(9): 22-23); "Why Jehovah's Witnesses are not Pacifists" and "Pacifism and Conscientious Objection - is there a difference?" 73 - 81 The Watchtower (Feb 1, 1951 72(3): 67- 73; Christendom or Christianity, which is the light of the World?  (New York, NY:Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1955), 24-26 subtitled "Is a Christian a Pacifist?"
 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago

Joker10, Thank you I am going to keep this bibliography and someday get through a fraction of this list. Again, Thanks.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


Joeker10 has neglected to mention that the article he posted can be found at: http://www.premier1.net/~raines/eisenhower.html
In an article titled, "Why President Eisenhower Hid His Jehovah's Witness Upbringing"
written by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D, Northwest State College, Ohio.
I'm sure Joker10's failure to mention this when specifically asked by Panda if he was the author of the article was simply an oversight.
 
Loris
Loris 13 years ago


I like to go to the local library when they have a used book sale. People donate books and the sale benefits the library. I found "The True Believer" at one of those sales. I had never heard of it before but the title caught my eye.
The one that I have was published by Time Magazine. In the Editors' Preface it starts out by saying, "Dwight Eisenhower is not a man who goes about insistently recommending books on political philosophy. When, during his Presidency, he pressed Eric Hoffer's book, The True Believer, on his associates, some expected to find it a handy expression of Eisenhower's own beliefs. The book is certainly not that, and many other readers before and after Eisenhower have delighted in The True Believer while disagreeing with much of it."
To me I found that tidbit facinating. I am sure that the editor missed the point of Eisenhower's interest in the subject matter. Was it the threat of Communism or was it the JW experience from his childhood? Did he see the similarity of the JW experience with what Eric Hoffer wrote about?
Thank you Jocker10 for posting the article. It was a facinating read.
Loris
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


Thanks Joker....
As a student of history I found this article very interesting. A lot of background information on what makes a person 'tick'. Dwight Eisernhower's life certainly made an impact on this earth and it is facinating to read about how his 'religious' background evolved.
D.E.
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago

i thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


i
thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
Don't worry about it.... it's human nature to not take as much time with or completely ignore LONG posts.... their misfortune... it was a great read.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


I researched this some time ago for a history project. My mother was a JW during the Eisenhower years. They talked about it like we do today about Michael Jackson and the Williams sisters.
During the JW generation of DDE, home family studies weren't stressed. My goodness, a structured study with householders didn't start until 1937 with the Model Study booklet. In many families around here the grandparents were JWs, skip the next generation, then the grandchildren are JWs. I guess the WTS thought the end was so close that it wasn't necessary to study with the kiddies.
Blondie
 
RR
RR 13 years ago

Actually, Ike's Father was a Bible Student eler, NEVER became a JW, lived and died a Bible Student.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


That's good to know, RR. Then I take it his mother was a JW or was she a Bible Student too? That letter seems to indicate she was a JW. That must have made things interesting in the Eisenhower household.
Blondie
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

Here are some search hits on this topic:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Eisenhower+mother+jehovah%27s+witness +
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Ida+Stover&btnG=Search
Some google graphics:
http://images.google.com/images?q=Ida%20Stover&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Honorable MentionIda (Stover) Eisenhower,
Ike's Mother

Ida Eisenhower, 1902
Although arbitrarily excluded from the top five,
Ida Eisenhower may deserve to be
Ike's No. 1. Most Admired Contemporary.
Eisenhower stated more than once that his mother was
the greatest person he knew.
I posted this in another thread, yet just found this one. Therefore, I'll post it here as well:
http://www.aetv.com/tv/shows/ike/
A and E tv original event...May 31, 2004 8pm--7pm central
"IKE: Countdown to D-Day"
________________________
sKally
 
Bangalore
Bangalore 4 years ago

Bumping this.

Bangalore
 

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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Thought you all would enjoy this.
I went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way! (10X worse than most JW).
I'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know Christ" blah blah blah blah blah.
Then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a Russian Mennonite blah blah blah and the Bible says that God will bless your offspring if you come to know him. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
So I start asking a few well placed questions like "Well what does that mean for the poor Muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a Muslim? Are you saying they are not blessed because their ancestors didn't accept Christ the way YOU think they should?"
Well, it was ten to one, Bible thumpers VS Lisa. And I thought you should know, they all admitted they were wrong AFTER I reference several scriptures like Acts 10:34,35 which does NOT state a prerequisite to God's blessing is being a Christian.
It felt kind of good to turn my JW training inside out and disprove their circular logic and make them accept that other people have belief systems that are just as valuable as their brand of Christianity.
It was a riot, I wish you guys were there.
They were all kind of pissed off also because I challenged the MEN. ha ha ha ha ha
Lisa
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 15 years ago


Lisa,
You that witnessing? I hope someone don't push you out the window.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


FRED
When want comment you will kick your cage. I hope you give rabies your family.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Hi LDH. I have a similar situation most of the time, with my son's fiancee. Her father is a fundamentalist pastor, and a great guy, but the mother and daughters..........deliver me, please! Everything is "thank you Jesus". I just want to gag!! We went to her 21st birthday party, at their home, last year, and I had to listen to that crap all day. Finally, I had had it, and I said, "how do you know that your prayers, are nothing more than goal setting?" I do a lot of that, and have wondered about the connection, and if there is one. The mother said, unbelievably "Isn't it wonderful? Jesus can answer prayers even if they don't believe it's a prayer!" I give up.
But, I used the same reasoning on them that you did, about Muslims, and they all caved. Every last one of the family had to acknowledge that the whole world does not have to accept Christ. My point to them was that "a Christian may have a greater responsibility, but doesn't it say that he died for ALL men?" Interesting that we used the same points. I just want them to quit trying to convert me. It will never happen. The father (Pastor) seems to recognize this, but the others are too dense.
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


LDH:
That WOULD have been fun.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Another little tidbit. The daughter my son is going to marry was in the emergency room on Thursday, with some neurological problems. I called the mother, who lives in another town, and told her that the neurologist said it was not Multiple Sclerosis, for sure. She replied "thank you Jesus." My husband deadpanned, "I didn't know the neurologist's name was Jesus?" I asked my son this morning how they will explain her illness if it does turn out to be very serious, or if she dies. He was totally dumbfounded. I asked if they will say Jesus didn't hear their prayers. No answer. Maybe he will think a bit. I don't wish that on her, by the way, but I want my son to THINK!!!
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


>So I start asking a few well placed questions like "Well what does that mean for the poor Muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a Muslim? Are you saying they are not blessed because their ancestors didn't accept Christ the way YOU think they should?"
You must have been dealing wth theological pygmies. Any evangelical that does not understand the concepts of election, predestination/free will is not very knowledgable. As a ex-JW your knowledge is probably basically rudimentary anyways.
>Well, it was ten to one, Bible thumpers VS Lisa. And I thought you should know, they all admitted they were wrong AFTER I reference several scriptures like Acts 10:34,35 which does NOT state a prerequisite to God's blessing is being a Christian.
Unless your lying about it. We have no way of knowing, do we? I suggest you read through the book of Romans and Ephesians, use the footnotes in a good study bible and if you can do it, go to a library and get Edward's "NIV Commentary on Romans".
NIV Acts 10:34-36
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
Peter is talking about God not favoring the Jews over gentiles. He is also speaking of converts to the new faith, to be later called "Christianity".
Also, the Bible DOES teach that all who do not accept His Son as their Lord and Saviour will reside in hell for an eternity.
LOL back atcha'
Rex
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Oh Puh---leez!!! Gag, gag, choke, choke.
 
Jang
Jang 15 years ago


Mulan

She replied "thank you Jesus." My husband deadpanned, "I didn't know the neurologist's name was Jesus?"
My dauther-in-laws mother is a fundy charismania and drives everyone mad with this. A couple of years ago she had surgery for Trigeminal Neuralgia which she had been waiting for God to heal. anyway, she was going on one day how thankful she was that God had finally healed her and so on. giving the impression that it was all miraculous. I pulled her up and reminded her that it was the Surgeon that had done the operation. Her reply was that it was Jesus who used the surgeon to heal ..... Then I asked her how come Jesus had to use a surgeon to heal her when he was quote capable of doing it in an instant.
Still haven't had an answer to that one [:D}

JanG
CAIC Website: http://caic.org.au/zjws.htm
Personal Webpage: http://uq.net.au/~zzjgroen/
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago




WHAT am I hearing here?
Do you not believe that the only way to be saved is by confessing Jesus as Lord and King just as the bible says? Do you not believe that you are saved only by accepting His loving sacrifice as the bible states?
It breaks my heart to see such abusiveness of others here; WHERE is the love that Jesus commanded us to have for everyone whether we agree or not?
LOVE for the day is near.
It is true that, by God's will (though not His desire) many will choose death over life, many will reject Jesus as Lord. They do this to the expense of their eternal life, believing they are right and God is wrong.
I feel such great sadness for anyone who rejects the truth.
 
LadyBug
LadyBug 15 years ago


God-Knows

I feel such great sadness for anyone who rejects the truth.
Then feel sadness for yourself.
BEW
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Hi Jan, your experience mirrors conversations I have all the time with these people. So irritating. I have had it with fundamentalists, including JW's, who are every bit as much fundamentalists as the Pentacostals, ramming their religion down people's throats. Maybe a different shade, of fundie, but still a fundie. You made a good point with her.....I hope she thinks about it at least.
As for you, god_knows........I am not giving credit to Jesus for healings. I don't believe that is done in our day. Doctors do what they know how to do. Random healings just don't happen. As for love for neighbor.......of course I feel that. Abuse? I don't think I am doing that. Nor is anyone who posted on this thread. I just don't agree with their theology. Am I not allowed to disagree? And, NO, I do NOT agree that the only way to salvation is to accept Jesus as your savior. Having said that, I am off for awhile. Time to make dinner for my loving family.
 
Francois
Francois 15 years ago


Mulan, you are a person after my own heart. I firmly belive that the greatest "christian" since Christ himself was Gandhi, who was Hindu. This of course is too much for your average fundy, who can't get past a juvenile, literalist interpretation of scripture.
For after Jesus made it clear that there are only two commandments of any validity, the fundys just can't resist the urge to begin making up new ones. I particularly like the one that goes, "You've gotta believe ON the name of Jesus Christ to be saved." Lemmeesee. Is that the "love god with a whole soul" commandment, or is that the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment? I can't decide.
Hope your dinner was as good as mine: chork pops w/ Kentucky green beans and rice.
ft
My $0.02
 
Francois
Francois 15 years ago


Mulan, you are a person after my own heart. I firmly belive that the greatest "christian" since Christ himself was Gandhi, who was Hindu. This of course is too much for your average fundy, who can't get past a juvenile, literalist interpretation of scripture.
For after Jesus made it clear that there are only two commandments of any validity, the fundys just can't resist the urge to begin making up new ones. I particularly like the one that goes, "You've gotta believe ON the name of Jesus Christ to be saved." Lemmeesee. Is that the "love god with a whole soul" commandment, or is that the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment? I can't decide.
Hope your dinner was as good as mine: chork pops w/ Kentucky green beans and rice.
ft
My $0.02
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Ha ha ha Mulan,
You reminded me. When I gave her the Birthday gift I had picked out, she unwrapped it and said "THANK you Jesus!"
I deadpanned, "Yea, he advanced me the money to get it for you."
My friend busted out laughing. Everyone else looked pained.
For the ass-munch who is questioning how many people were at a birthday party, maybe he/she/it should try attending one. The scripture you quoted, asshole, reinforces that the message was for the people of Israel.
"Christians." HA The most judgemental people on the face of the earth, deciding who will and won't be saved.
PS, Since YOUR bible teaches that only Christians will be saved, remind me not to EVER purchase that version. You may also want to use your grammar check when you use the word 'your' since you obviously don't know the difference between your and you're.
"And God makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous"
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


>But, I used the same reasoning on them that you did, about Muslims, and they all caved. Every last one of the family had to acknowledge that the whole world does not have to accept Christ. My point to them was that "a Christian may have a greater responsibility, but doesn't it say that he died for ALL men?" Interesting that we used the same points. I just want them to quit trying to convert me. It will never happen. The father (Pastor) seems to recognize this, but the others are too dense.
Why don't you wake up? They're trying to show you REAL Christianity and you whine about how happy that are. Why does that bother you so much? BTW, just like I told LDH, the doctrine of election is the answer to your question. Try picking up a commentary on the N.T. or ask the pastor without the rest around.
You need to get over the Watchtower slander.
Rex
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago

Hi Jan,
You join the ranks of the true apostates and reject God? BTW, God heals with surgeon's hands, chemist's drugs and sometimes miracles....sometimes he takes people home. Either way, HE is in control.
Rex
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


>Christians." HA The most judgemental people on the face of the earth, deciding who will and won't be saved.
NOPE, that's just what it teaches. John 14.6, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
>PS, Since YOUR bible teaches that only Christians will be saved, remind me not to EVER purchase that version.
Try something besides the NWT and you might emerge from the fog...
>You may also want to use your grammar check when you use the ord 'your' since you obviously don't know the difference between your and you're.
That's a common error in grammar and btw, it sounds a lot more civil than 'assmuch'. Is that one of your newfound joys, using vulgarities?
Yakki da
Rex
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Rex:
Not at all. Ass-munch is one of my all-time favorites. Thank you SOOOOO much for sharing the glorious good news about the Christ! You've taught me SOOOOOO much. NOT.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Hey Francois, my brother gave me a book five years ago, when I was just making my exit from the Borg. It is called Living Buddha, Living Christ. It literally screamed at me that if you live the Buddhist philosophy, you are also living Christianity. So, to all the critics of me and those who believe as I do, "what does God want? People who believe in Christ. Or Christians?"
 

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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Copernicus
Copernicus 15 years ago


Rex:
While you have as much right to hold opinions and speak about them as does anyone on this board (even. . . gasp . . . Fred Hall), I really have to wonder why you’re here. It’s very unlikely that you’ll find a sympathetic ear, especially with the rather condescending, belittling approach you display when examining the feelings of others.
Most of us here are pretty burned out on religion – the whole concept. That’s our privilege, and you can take it or leave it. But statements such as this -

Why don't you wake up? They're trying to show you REAL Christianity and you whine about how happy that are.
seem to me to be uncalled for. LDH has awoken, to a realization of having suffered what may have been many years of abuse in the WT. You’ll have to excuse LDH, or anyone else here, if they’re not anxious to again accept another “yoke” to be shared with someone as apparently obnoxious yourself. Jesus hardly attempted to draw followers to himself with the tactics you’ve displayed. And you do him no credit whatsoever by persisting in this way.
In my “career” as a Witness, I had MANY conversations with fundamentalist Christians, the vast majority of whom displayed very little bible knowledge. Their beliefs, like those of the JW’s, where based mainly on credulity and emotionality. They would often say ridiculous things like:

....sometimes he takes people home.
You mentioned in another post your “belief” that the churches of Christendom represent the combined “body of Christ”. I quoted you:
1 Corinthians 1:10 “Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
And suggested that Paul’s thought here always gave me pause for concern when I heard anyone make a statement such as you have. I also asked for your proof in support of such an assertion; which on its surface, is quite an absurd one to me.
I’m still waiting.
I would suggest, in a loving sort of way, that you might consider lightening up a bit. Many of us here are hurting – emotionally and spiritually. We don’t need huge doses of in your face fundy attitudes. Or, maybe you could find another board more simpatico with you antagonistic outreach ministry.
And by the way, I thought LDH’s account was hilarious.
Copernicus
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


LDH,
I loved your story. It's great when you can give a retort that throws their programming into default, and their automatic phrases lock up on them. I enjoy doing that myself.
Rex, I agree with Copernicous on this one. Most of us here react to any message from anyone that smacks of an in your face, condescending attitude. Of all your dialogue, I found your correction of Lisa's grammatical mistake (your versus you're) and your explaination to be the most offensive. Though the most minor of your comments, it reflected a pompousness on your part. (we have all made that mistake or similiar ones on occasion)
Also, I don't believe that God works through medicine and doctors as you assert. I think the scientists who developed the medicine and the doctors who spent years in intensive training should get the sole credit.
 
joelbear
joelbear 15 years ago


Mulan,
I read an introductory book on Buddhism about 1 year ago and walked away with the same impression you did. Basically, all religions have the same core tenets.
1. Have love for others.
2. Don't value material things more than you value each other.
I have a theory for this. I call it the Natural Guilt theory. That is, that we are born with a core value system that is part of nature's way of balancing our survival instincts against the needs of the greater whole of the living universe.
All religions start with this core, then dilute it as survival and territorial instincts kick in.
For example.
Love your neighbor and place books.
Love your neighbor and pray 5 times a day to Mecca.
Love your neighbor and keep the sabbath.
Love your neighbor and come to mass every day.
etc. etc. etc.
The core is there. Value the core.
hugs
Joel
 
TR
TR 15 years ago


Lisa,
You kill me, lady! Wanna get married?
TR

"Kults Suk"
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


MULAN
Though Buddhism is admirable in many respects for its similarity to Christianity, living the buddhist lifestyle does NOT mean that you are living as a Christian.
For there are major differences between Buddhism and Christianity (ie, they do not believe in God, and also ascribe to the concept of reincarnation, etc, etc)
God wants CHRISTIANS, and not just those who call themselves Christian by name, He wants those who believe wholeheartedly in Christ as Lord and King, and who follow His whole message to the best of their ability.....without foolish men like the WT standing in their way....
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Aren't you being just a little bit presumptious? Even your screen name, 'god_knows'? A little high and mighty, I think. What makes you think you know what God wants, and what kind of people he is looking for? Why is your opinion more valid than mine?
 
JanH
JanH 15 years ago


God_Knows:
Though Buddhism is admirable in many respects for its similarity to Christianity, living the buddhist lifestyle does NOT mean that you are living as a Christian.

True. Buddhists, for one, does not do anything to cram their beliefs down other people's throats. They do not teach they are the only truth. Their beliefs are open to scrutiny, debate and even revision. And, most importantly, judging by the Buddhists I have met and talked to, their religion has the ability to make people better, not worse.

- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


It is true that, by God's will (though not His desire) many will choose death over life, many will reject Jesus as Lord. They do this to the expense of their eternal life, believing they are right and God is wrong.
Translation: Do what I say and nobody gets hurt.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 15 years ago


Someone once said to me that an exJW has a wound. They have been lied to by religion. They have been hurt very deeply by friends and relatives in the name of religion. They have been 'true believers' and got the biggest shaft ever imaginable in return for that belief.
Any reminder is actually painful. It's the scab being torn of the wound. Someone says 'Thank you Jesus' and we cringe. Funny how we don't cringe when someone says, "Thank you Allah." Is it REALLY because we don't hear 'Allah' as much as 'Jesus', or is it a deep, unconscious reaction that makes us want to barf when we hear a happy Christian? And how often is the Christian really (outside of these type of forums) trying to 'cram their beliefs down our throats'? They don't even have to do THAT, do they? They only have to say, "Thank you Jesus" and our reaction is instant. Sometimes our comments to them are 'instant' too. How often are WE the ones challenging their beliefs and thus, just asking for an arguement?
And why is it that we generalize Christians? Where do we get this unspoken idea that Christian=fundie? Perhaps the reason is that NON-fundy Christians wouldn't be arguing with us or telling us that we are going to hell, and so we have no frame of reference. The world isn't back and white, and neither is Christianity. There are shades of grey all around us. Beautiful shades of gray. Throuble is we were trained not to see them. We don't even really believe they exsist.
---LisaBobeesa
(PS yes, I know nobody actually said, 'Christian=fundie' but some seem to hold this belief.)
Thanks for listening!
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


SEEKER
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and unbeliever, but by God's foreknowledge it is a simple fact that many will reject the truth, thinking that they can go their own way to be saved. God cannot help those who reject Him and will not listen. So He gives them up the the path which they alone have chosen to follow. God does not condemn them; THEY CONDEMN THEMSELVES.
MULAN
The bible makes it perfectly clear that the only ones who are saved are the ones who accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour who died for us all.
NO exeptions except for babies and small children who cannot understand sin, and cannot be held accountible, nor have the capability to learn and understand the Lord's word.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


MULAN
I should also add that my handle is chosen because my words are foolish and meaningless without the hepl of the Lord. I am NOTHING but a fly that can be swatted away. NO ONE, NO flesh can ever pretend to fully understand the mind of GOD.
Only GOD KNOWS the whole truth.
I love you all most sweetly, in Jesus's name!
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


god_knows........why do you post here? Were you ever a JW?
You are just so presumptious in your assessment of what the Bible says, and your interpretations of it. Where exactly, does it say that there is an exception for small babies and children? Again, I ask: Why is your opinion more valid than mine?
I still think God wants people who behave as Christians, more than people who have accepted Christ. But......I am NOT saying that those who accept Christ are less than those who do accept him, anymore than I believe that they are better. Who am I to make that kind of a statement? I like a comment that my brother makes quite often: "The world needs less Christians and more Christs."
And my husband has a sign in his office that says: "Jesus, deliver me from your followers." It is self explanatory to me, but if anyone needs it explained, I will be happy to do so.
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


God_Knows,
I think it is very rude of you to jump into this thread where people are talking about the kind of dialogue they find offensive. You come in with the very reteric they dislike. Why don't you show a modicum of good sense and post your ideas on another thread of your own making. You are a perfect example of the ill mannered nature of those who have this great need to foist their ideas on others. At best, you lack good manners. At worst, you are simply stupid.
 
Copernicus
Copernicus 15 years ago


Simply stupid gets my vote.
Religion IS a snare and a racket - there are no exceptions.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


You all seem to be mistaking me for a JW, and I am NOT, nor did I ever have any association with them. And DO not wish to do so. I am terribly disturbed at their dreadfully erroneous teachings that only lead people astray from the real truth.
But that does not take away from what Jesus said, that NO ONE cometh to the Father but by ME. It is not enough to do good works, the bible makes that perfectly clear that works do not save you. FAITH in the risen LORD is what saves, and that fAITH has to come first. Works are the fruits of that faith. You cannot put the cart before the horse as it were.
No matter what you might think of me, I LOVE you all most sweetly. Hugs and kisses to all of you.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Why do you NEVER answer my question, god_knows?
Don't you get it? Your self righteous attitude is exactly why we all dislike organized religion. You think you have all the answers.
None of us dislike you. It's your attitude, and your syrupy Christianity that is such a turn off.
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and unbeliever, but by God's foreknowledge it is a simple fact that many will reject the truth, thinking that they can go their own way to be saved. God cannot help those who reject Him and will not listen. So He gives them up the the path which they alone have chosen to follow. God does not condemn them; THEY CONDEMN THEMSELVES.
I know. Translation, once again: Do what I say and no one gets hurt.
It's really that simple. As you, yourself, just confirmed by the above.
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Mulan and Seeker,
I tryed to be as direct as I could with God_Knows and he still comes back. Question for the two of you: is there something wrong with the way I write or is there something wrong with the way he reads?
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Hi Larc, You write great!! He is just a typical self righteous religious type. Like most of us used to be. We wouldn't have been so easily discouraged either. It's hard to remember that part of my past, but it was still there. And......it is still really irritating.
Thanks for your supportive remarks anyway!
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Mulan,
I remember those days very well, when I was one of God's chosen people, and I was at the door to find the sheep. However, after my attempt to "overcome objections" as I was taught to do, I did understand the meaning of "No", and I would leave the porch. I just wish that God_Knows would leave our porch, at least for a couple days. That's all I ask of him. (How can we miss him when he won't even leave?)
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

I actually think he is gone. He hasn't posted on this thread again, anyway. His last comment seemed to be a finale. I was like you too, towards the end especially. I was easily 'discouraged' by a householder, and left their porch quite agreeably!!
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


*sighs*
That is SHE to all of you, not HE.
I will go, but not without a great deal of sadness; There is no love anywhere in this world, only bitterness. I still love you all no matter what.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


Just one more thing though....
I hear what you all say baout organised religion; I myself am NOT part of any man's organised religion, for you can have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ without organised religion standing in your way.
I am so sorry that man's lies have turned you off the saviour. I will pray for you all. I love yuo.
 
digderidoo
digderidoo 15 years ago

Nice one lisa....i hope you socked it to them!!!
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


larc:

At best, you lack good manners. At worst, you are simply stupid.
Don't let this board get to you the way it's gotten to me at times. Keep your head level.
I can't believe I miss mds.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Larc, Mulan, Seeker, Copernicus and others:
God Knows and Rex are an example of the perfection of my argument, without even realizing it.
They immediately took my argument to be anti-Christian! The whole point of my post is how easily ANY religion can be derailed by this very simple argument. It just so happened it was a group of Christians.
WOW talk about missing the point!
Lisa
(PS TR we will have to elope in the middle of the night)
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

I emailed to God_knows not to stop posting. We actually need people like them here. I just advised him to stop preaching and just keep a dialog going. No one likes a preacher. (no one here, that is)
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


First of all, I did not correct anyone's grammar, that was someone else.
Second, I was merely pointing out that WTS reasoning on the Bible is usually so far off base that you can only confuse someone who is lacking in any scriptural knowledge. Evangelicals that have studied the various doctrines that are Biblical can show their veracity in the Bible.
Third, God has many houses that imperfect humans can use for worship. Differences in the true body of Christ are NOT in the areas of salvation, the nature of God nor of the two possible destinations of the immortal soul.
Fourth, there is no, 'one, true church' of any human organization and the warnings in various N.T. books against teachings clearly apply to specific heresies that were present at that time. Jesus' parable of the wheat and the tares shows this in an obvious way.
Fifth, people who have not taken the time to investigate the alternatives to the WTS are only denying Christ. If your last day occurs tomorrow, where will you be, saved for an eternity or lost for an eternity?
Sixth, your 'killing the messenger' while ignoring the implication of said message.
Did you know that God's grace is free and cannot be earned?
All that is required is for you to believe in the sacrifice of our Lord at the cross, ask forgiveness and repent of your past life of sin! Pick up your cross and follow Christ.
God loves you. John 2.16,
You are a sinner. Romans 3.23,
You are now dead in sin. Romans 6.23,
Christ died for you. Romans 5.6-8,
You can be saved by faith alone. Acts 16.30-31,
You can know you are saved. 1 John 5.10-13,
You can be obedient Acts 5.29
Read these with an open mind and open heart that God may bring salvation to your soul! It's time to shed your former beliefs and ask the Lord to whow you the way.
Rex
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


Hi, Mulan, thanks for writing. My name is Christina Douglas.
I really AM sorry that the lies of the WT have pushed you all away. I personally have no connection with any organised religion, because I have not found a good church yet. In that sense, I really CAN see where all of you are coming from. Though there is something to be said for going to church and celebrating with other believers, I prefer to stay at home, because in my own worship I find far more fulfillment than in any church around here.
I did not come here to judge you all, Jesus said Do NOT judge. I do hope, that in time, you might come to see who Jesus REALLY is.
I have nothing but LOVE for all of you, and I will be back if I am welcome.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Actually Rex, I am the one who corrected your grammar.
Furthermore, all of the 'cute' little quotes you got look like they are straight off of a Chick Tract.
Let's clarify. Jesus died to redeem all mankind. Where did HE say you had to believe in him in order to receive that gift? HA HA all of the scriptures you quoted were written by OTHERS and were not the words of JESUS your redeemer. Some who wrote those bible books you quoted never even MET Jesus let alone had a conversation with him.
The only two commandments that YOUR Lord gave were
1. Love your FATHER (not Love *ME*, the Great Jesus) with your whole HEART SOUL AND MIND
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
So *NO* loving Jesus is not a prerequisite for salvation. Neither is being baptised in his name. His death alone redeemed sinful mankind.
At least, that's what a *TRUE* Christian should believe.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


LDH
Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and might....and Jesus IS GOD. Blessigns and love to all of you. MULAN you are welcome to keep writing to me personally if you like!
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


GK...YAH that makes real good sense.....let's see. I'm standing in a crowd of followers, and I'm going to give them some basic directions.
Do I say:
1. Love the 6 foot tall amazon woman with a great sense of humor?
2. Love ME with all you heart?
1. Pray to me, who is in heaven, this way.
2. OUR father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Once again, you offend by adding YOUR two cents to Jesus words. Whereas I feel that what the man said stands on its own.
Now you may be perfectly happy with your concept of trinity. But I find it has no basis in scripture. So thanks but no thanks.
Keep your brand of Jesus. I'll keep mine.
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago


Let's clarify. Jesus died to redeem all mankind. Where did HE say you had to believe in him in order to receive that gift? HA HA all of the scriptures you quoted were written by OTHERS and were not the words of JESUS your redeemer. Some who wrote those bible books you quoted never even MET Jesus let alone had a conversation with him.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 John 3:16-18
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 John 6:19
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 John 6:40
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
 John 6:47
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I John 5:10-13
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Just like I said. If someone doesn't believe the Jesus from YOUR Bible they're dead meat.
So lordy lordy you better GET to proselytizing because if they haven't heard and accepted the name of Jesus they're DEAD DEAD DEAD.
God help the little Tibetan or Nigerian or Amazonian or Boznian who isn't lucky enough to get Robert Tilton Ministries on cable, huh?
Yes, your God sounds like someone I'd like to know. NOT.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40
I guess you ain't gettin raised up either. According to THIS scripture, not only do you have to BELIEVE on the Son, you also needed to SEE him.
Whatever.
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago


Since YOU brought up the subject of proselytizing, ... I have yet to walk up to anybody's door, uninvited, and proceed to interrupt their day by preaching to them. Can you say the same?
Even in this case, I did not chime in with unrequested information. My contribution was an answer to the question that YOU put out on the table.

Jesus died to redeem all mankind. Where did HE say you had to believe in him in order to receive that gift?
And think about the title to this thread ... "I witnessed to the *Christians* last night." Isn't that exactly what you used to do as a JW? Add to that the general intolerance of anybody else's belief system. You may as well be back in the Kingdom Hall. Have you really broken free?
JustAThought
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


I cannot believe your line of reasoning.
No wonder you have no faith. You seem to believe every last snippet of radical, higher critic, atheists like the Jesus Seminar. Jack Chick? I am supposed to be offended? Try reading the N.T. in the light of context and you will need a good commentary. I'd suggest the NIV commentary by Edwards or Martin Luther's commentary on Romans.
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father, except by me."
"No one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."
There is plenty of scripture to support all of the mainline protestant doctrines for anyone who wants to study the issue. Your JW brand of 'rationalism' is a tail chasing trap that leads only to the pit. They used to write really good posts on h2o that exposed the idiocy inherent in JW beliefs. Too bad you never saw them.
Rex
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


And if you had bothered to read the thread you would have realized my witnessing was in response to an OVERLOAD of JESUS.
NOT my desire to push my belief system off on others, but to defend the rights of people who don't beleive as THEY DO.
"Jesus save me from your followers"
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago

LDH,
Your lack of biblical understanding is really amazing, for someone who wants to critisize doctrine you have no clue. ELECTION, predestination, foreknowledge and add to that we admit there are things unknowable in the Bible, unlike the basic cult contentions that you seem to cling to.
I give up. If you won't even look at the issue in an honest matter, forget it.
Rex
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


HMMM......
So Lisa, an old hand here on this board and Witnet before this one, posts something that the fundies don't like.
Larc, TR, Mulan and many other well respected posters here actually ENJOY the post because they get the 'meaning of it.'
Then we have three newbies. God Know, Rex, and Just a Thought. Among whose first posts seek to defend the die-hard fundamentalism so many of us recognize WAY too easily.
It's too much for them to accept that there are 6 million people all over the world and all of them haven't read the Chick Tracts. You are welcome to post here, it's a free country.
But if you want to preach about Jesus start your own damn thread.
Lisa
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago


HMMM......
Let's see what replacement of just a few words will do ...
So Lisa, an old hand here in this group and the JW's before that, posts something that the Christians don't like.
Larc, TR, Mulan and many other well respected group members here actually ENJOY the post because they get the 'meaning of it' (i.e., it's an inside thing).
Then we have three outsiders. God Knows, Rex, and Just a Thought.
Among whose first posts seek to defend that die-hard Christianity we all so easily recognize as wrong.
Sound like anything familiar?
JustAThought
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



Related Topics
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

JustAThought: Try a modern English Bible. Geez! Who can understand all that middle ages English.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


First point- LDH
What do you think the bible means when it says (John 1:1)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
Or how about Rev. 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Or John 20:28 (After Thomas had seen the risen Jesus)
And Thomas answered And said unto him, My Lord and my God
Second point- to a number of you here.....not all, but some for sure.....
Is there no love anywhere within you? Is all you have within you a tendency to enjoy backbiting and malice? People have a right to choose for themselves what they will believe, we can talk to them all we want to, but unless they make a conscious choice to change their beliefs, we do not have the right to judge them for the paths they choose to follow.
Jesus commanded us to go to the world and teach the truth; but not to shove our beliefs down people's throats. Did JESUS do that NO.
No matter what happens, the command LOVE your neighbor still applies to everyone whether you are in agreement or not. WHY can you not LOVE each other? WHY does there have to be so much verbal mudslinging here? I myself might certainly not agree with your beliefs necessarily, but I LOVE every single one of you with the same passion that I share for the King. You can beat me up for this all you want to, and I will still love you all.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Maybe it's the pregnancy, but your fucking martyrdom is just too much for me.
Considering the fact that John 1:1 has not been explained in a satisfactory explanation by ANY religious group, I would say it has been bastarized.
Considering Revelation was nothing but an old man on an Alzheimer trip, I wouldn't put too much faith in it. Unless you really thing Jesus is motoring around heaven on a celestial chariot. Barf.
"In sweetest love with eternal hope spring forth from the wonderful words of our Good Book the Bible which teaches us how the Judeo-Christian peoples are BETTER than anyone else on earth how I do love you with a love so deep and I will pray for you, you poor sop."
Somebody get me a barf bag. The Fundies are praying for me.
Here, go get your supplies of the infamous Chick tracts to convert all the poor brown and yellow people to your God!
http://www.chick.com/default.asp
If you are seriously up for a beat-down, email me privately. I can arrange a meeting.
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


LDH:

Somebody get me a barf bag. The Fundies are praying for me.
LOL. I know what you mean.
 
jelly
jelly 15 years ago


LDH,

straight off of a Chick Tract.
The first time someone told me they had a 'chick tract' for me I got very excited, boy was I disappointed when I found out what they really were.
Jelly
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago

How ironic is it that people who used to participate in what
must be the one of the most obnoxious religious groups in our
time decrying Chick tracts. At least nobody's shoving 'em in
your face and asking you to pay for publishing costs.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago

I still love you anyway.
 
reagan_oconnor
reagan_oconnor 15 years ago


Someone says 'Thank you Jesus' and we cringe.
Actually, I find that I don't cringe as much at that as when I hear "Jehovah." I can't equate God with Jehovah. Jehovah is the god of the JWs, not the God of Christianity. I know it's "just another name" but I can't get past the squirrelly feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever I hear/read the name "Jehovah" in reference to God.
"I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."
 
reagan_oconnor
reagan_oconnor 15 years ago


Rex said:

Did you know that God's grace is free and cannot be earned?
Why did we never hear this expressed by the Witnesses? Why did they never discuss "grace?"

"I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


God_Knows:
We love you too. Although we don't really know who you are, it is apparent that you care deeply for others. Here's a thought...
Why don't you try loving others because Jesus told you to and quit trying to push your silly trinity doctrine? That seems to be part of the problem here, your message of love is being overridden by your pushing of an illogical doctrine that in all honesty you probably have never thoroughly investigated logisticly.
Now, if you HONESTLY love people, why don't you just go away? I know your really here to justify yourself and try to be a good christian, but please turn off your computer, go outside and do things to help others that will really see your good works. You're not helping anyone here. There might be an old lady down the street who needs groceries, or a poor man that needs a bowl of soup, and they sit there and suffer because people like you are doing exactly what the witnesses do... Your pushing your silly doctrinal agenda instead of helping your fellow humans.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


IANAO
I will teach only what I know to be the truth, confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost. I will never deny the truth that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD.
It is only that I have had a hard time learning that you can only talk about certain things for just so long; after that you push people away, and that hurts the cause of Christ Jesus the King.
People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Jesus is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea.
What you choose to believe is entirely your business in the end. I will love you anyway, for I did not come here to judge. But as long as there are other people on this forum who have questions and are willing to listen, I will not abandon them. I will be there for them as long as they need me. Even you too if you ever have any questions. I am not going away until the Lord directs me to move on. I go by His will and His alone.
Hugs and kisses to you and every single one of you here!
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


God Knows,
The Lord just called. He can't find your phone number. He wants me to tell you to Go Away.
Lisa
 
Tina
Tina 15 years ago


LOL (((((((lisa)))))))))))))
psssssst BETHelMOle's the name
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Jesus is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea.
Wrong.
I would have no problem accepting Jesus as God -- if there was any evidence for this. There is none. No one has ever provided any, just platitudes, wishes, hopes, and harangues. I could just as easily say to you:
"People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Vishnu is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea."
If you now do no accept that Vishnu is God, I can only assume that you do not like the idea.
 
taoistpunk
taoistpunk 15 years ago


It saddens me that all of you are shoving your beliefs down each others necks. Jesus this, dumb christians that, who cares. So what if we all believe in different faiths, that is what makes us all individuals, or do you all like being sheep? Believe in something for yourself. It shouldn’t matter if you believe in Jesus, Buddha, Zen, the way, Satan, or the crap on the bottom of your shoe, as long as you feel inside that it's good. OH, and JanH....ROCK ON!!!!!!
I'm Taoist for me, not to please you, and if that means I'm going to a hell than so be it.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


SEEKER
Blessings and love to you, sweet one.
I have provided many bible passages, I think in another thread, actually, to show the truth that Jesus is Lord and GOD.
How about, to keep things short, Rev. 1, Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 John 8:56,58, 1John 5:7, just to name a few examples.
Do you believe that there is only ONE LORD and ONE GOD?
Greatest love to all of you, Lotsa kisses too!
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


SEEKER
Blessings and love to you, sweet one.
You can leave off the compliments when talking to me. I'm sure you mean well, but I'm not your sweet one. Just say, "Seeker" and move on to your argument and we'll get along better. Thank you.

I have provided many bible passages, I think in another thread, actually, to show the truth that Jesus is Lord and GOD.
How about, to keep things short, Rev. 1, Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 John 8:56,58, 1John 5:7, just to name a few examples.
That doesn't prove Jesus is Lord any more than Hindu writings prove to you that Vishnu is Lord. What makes the Bible right and all other holy writings wrong?

Do you believe that there is only ONE LORD and ONE GOD?
No evidence either way, therefore I say, I don't know.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


The bible says there is only ONE LORD and ONE GOD. All the rest are either demons or simply nonexistent.
So I guess I should have asked you then; Do you believe in the Bible?
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


God_Knows:

I will teach only what I know to be the truth, confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost. I will never deny the truth that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD.
Thank you for at least admitting that. Also, thank you for admitting that you are only interested in pushing your silly doctrine. Then again, as I look at your reaction to me and others, you may not clearly understand what a doctrinal viewpoint is. I would show you a little bit about it (as much as I COULD show you), but I am tired of bantering about while you LITERALLY have your head in the clouds and can't understand a word I am saying to you.

It is only that I have had a hard time learning that you can only talk about certain things for just so long; after that you push people away, and that hurts the cause of Christ Jesus the King.
That is completely obvious. You have totally missed the point of my previous post. Maybe you are PUSHING PEOPLE AWAY because you want to argue whether or not the ONE LORD is the ONE GOD (That's TWO entities, BTW). Have you ever thought of discussing the virtues of Jesus' message?

People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Jesus is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea.
Wrong. I have backed up my statements either in this thread or in another. You declared to me beforehand that I wouldn't respond to you. Did you even read my post? Probably not. You probably looked away because you were afriad of using your noodle in a way that would throw you out of your social clique with the folks back in church.

What you choose to believe is entirely your business in the end.
I'm glad you realize that! So now, will you PLEASE quit trying to convert people when you don't even understand your own doctrinal basis? No, probably not. You probably don't even know what I am talking about, do you?

I will love you anyway, for I did not come here to judge.
Unfortunately, all you have been doing is judging (without even saying a word!)

But as long as there are other people on this forum who have questions and are willing to listen, I will not abandon them. I will be there for them as long as they need me.
Translated: "I am going to continue to justify my belief system until I have learned not to question it. I will disguise this as a need to lead others to the lord."

Even you too if you ever have any questions.
Thanks but no thanks! I've been where you are today. I can only say that their are a bunch of hot lookin' babes in a full-gospel penecostal church. Other than that, it was of no benefit. And please don't hand me any crap about "I didn't sincerely listen to the message." I listened, and when I started having questions that the preacher couldn't answer, all he could do is banter on about "unfortunate mistranslations" and "his thoughts are higher than our thoughts". After I asked him why God even wrote a book for us in the first place then, he grew pale and avoided me totally.

I am not going away until the Lord directs me to move on.
Translated: "I am not going away until I decide to do so."

I go by His will and His alone.
Translated: "I will do as I please."

Hugs and kisses to you and every single one of you here!
Hugs right back (don't know you well enough for a kiss).
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


So I guess I should have asked you then; Do you believe in the Bible?
No. Do you believe the Qu'ran?
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


*Sighs*
I can only guess who that was directed at, but if that is me, I already said, TINA, that I am not a JW, and disapprove of the WT teachings.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago

Ok.
Do I believe in the Koran? NO. Because it denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, and also denies His sacrifice.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


ALL of you....
I am so deeply saddened by the abusivness that I am seeing on this board. And IANAO'S continuing to twist my words around, saying mean things I would never say to any of you.
I love you all so very much and that will never change. My heart is in anguish at the level of malice and lack of love that I see from so many (I will not say "ALL" because that would be a lie; but it does apply to many here)
Jesus taught us to LOVE all people, and that there is no room for hate in us.
Tomorrow (I cannot do it at the moment) I will contact administration here to cancel my account here. I feel the Holy Ghost's insistence that I leave.
You are all welcome to write to me personally, though, my email is whitetiger99_99@lycos.com.
MULAN; you are a sweetheart, and I will love you forever. I do appreciate the email you sent a few days ago, but I relly think I must go.
LDH,
God bless and keep you sweetheart, and I pray that your baby will be strong and fine.
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


Do I believe in the Koran? NO. Because it denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, and also denies His sacrifice.
And the Bible does not extol Mohammed as God's prophet, so clearly the Bible shouldn't be believed by your reasoning.
 
expatbrit
expatbrit 15 years ago


I have a piece of paper in front of me. It's a message from God. It tells me that the way to heaven consists of always mixing vodka martinis in the ratio of six to one.
I know that this is the word of God, because at the bottom it says "this is a message from God".
The bible, on the other hand, is a false book, since it says absolutely nothing about martinis.
Come all, and be a martini's witness. Drink life's martinis free! (cocktail shaker required)
Expatbrit
 
taoistpunk
taoistpunk 15 years ago

Expatbrit,
 FREE SHAKER! I'm game.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 15 years ago


Question: Why is it that exJWs often get more offended by Christians expressing their faith than the genneral, non-Christian public?
Question: Why do ex-JWs enjoy arguing with Christians?
Question: When someone says they believe in the Trinity because of what they read in the Bible, WHY MUST we tell them they are WRONG? Why not just say, "Interesting belief."
Question: And if we insist on telling them they are wrong and why, then what is it that makes us any different than the Christian you THINK is preaching to you?
Question: Why are we so POSITIVE we are RIGHT? (Hummmm.......Wern't we just as sure we were right when we were.....?) Isn't there the smallest possibility we could be WRONG about some Biblical issues?
HINT:
 What other group likes to argue with main stream Christians, feels that they MUST tell people of other faiths that they are WRONG, and is absolutly, 100% sure they are correct in everything they believe they know about the Bible? What other group is unable to see any reason why people could possibly believe differently unless they are stupid or ignorant?
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


The problem is that you keep drawing a conclusion comparing apples and oranges. Real Christianity, i.e. 'fundamentalism' is totally different from cults like JWs and others. These groups are easily spotted if you know what to look for:
They use the same words yet change or twist the meaning.
They are authoritarian, top down structure for doctrinal beliefs.
They promote long disproven heresies as the 'real truth'.
They promote themselves as 'better' than other 'religions' or 'christians'.
They ignore the fact that a 'saved' Christian can still sin but should gradually improve, faith first and works as a result of their dedication.
They pretend to be 'Biblical' but have their own peculiar beliefs that actually deny well-researched, verifiable teachings.
Quacking away about how smart you are when you have been shown to know very little will not change the fact that you are hopelessly wrong.
R.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Well I hope you guys are happy.  You drove away a perfectly nice gal.
It seems so unnecessary to attack the way some of you do. I am just venting, but I hope you feel some shame.
I wrote her hoping she will change her mind.
Marilyn (Mulan)
 
rosBeacon
rosBeacon 15 years ago


Hello, lisaBObeesa
I’d like to take make a pass at answering your questions.

Question: Why is it that exJWs often get more offended by Christians expressing their faith than the genneral, non-Christian public?
Could you be a little more precise in which exJWs you are talking about? Some exJWs are Christians.
From my Christian perspective, there is a difference between expressing your faith and preaching it. I don’t get offended at anyone expressing their beliefs, whether it be Christian or non-Christian or non-religious. Fundamentalists believe that unless we accept their specific belief, we will be tortured in fire for eternity. People coming out of the Watchtower are often fed up with religious absolutism, and just don’t want that kind of dogma pushed at them. Especially the ones who have a better understanding of the Biblical issues than the ones preaching them.

Question: Why do ex-JWs enjoy arguing with Christians?
Again, your question presumes all exJWs are not Christians. May we conclude that you have been drawn to Evangelical religion?
I happen to believe that some exJWs who are not trinitarian ARE Christian. Myself, for example. And for a fact I do not enjoy-—in fact avoid-—arguing with Fundamentalists.
Do you know of any board that is specifically for Evangelical Christians where exJWs go to argue with them on their turf about their beliefs? It seems the other way around to me.

Question: When someone says they believe in the Trinity because of what they read in the Bible, WHY MUST we tell them they are WRONG? Why not just say, "Interesting belief."
Well I for one do not argue trinity with people who believe it. I do not believe it is an issue for salvation and don’t see the need to convince them they are wrong. In my experience, it’s the people who believe the trinity who try to force-feed their belief to people who don’t agree. I would be lying if I said it was interesting.
Question: And if we insist on telling them they are wrong and why, then what is it that makes us any different than the Christian you THINK is preaching to you?
Again and again, it seems to me that you have the issue reversed. They come in telling us WE are not Christians (in fact you have been implying the same) and don’t know the “real Jesus”. I say we are perfectly justified in voicing disagreement with them, in fact, being offended. However, I don’t argue it; I just don't blame people who do.
Now let me ask you another question: Do you believe we should point out to Jehovah’s Witnesses that they are wrong and why?

Question: Why are we so POSITIVE we are RIGHT? (Hummmm.......Wern't we just as sure we were right when we were.....?) Isn't there the smallest possibility we could be WRONG about some Biblical issues?
By “we” should be suppose you do not believe you (as in “we”) are right?
Let me quote you a “Murphy’s Law” I like that refers to a Biblical proverb:
“The race is not always to the swift or the victory to the strong.” But that’s the way to bet!
If I make a fairly in-depth study of something and find that the vast preponderance of circumstantial evidence supports one way that may have a profound effect on my life, it is not wise to bet on the remote possibility that the other way is right. Its like buying a lottery ticket. I may think you are foolish to buy a lottery ticket. That’s MY opinion. BUT—-I have to admit, it is POSSIBLE you will win! But I wouldn’t bet on it. The point is, all we can do is go with what seems right to us.
[quote]HINT:
What other group likes to argue with main stream Christians, feels that they MUST tell people of other faiths that they are WRONG, and is absolutly, 100% sure they are correct in everything they believe they know about the Bible? What other group is unable to see any reason why people could possibly believe differently unless they are stupid or ignorant?[quote]
Let’s turn that question around again: Which ones do not?
Why do you think your question does not fit “mainstream” Christians? Do you include Catholics, Mormons, Lutherans, etc.? Evangelicals don’t.
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Ros,
That was spot on (a term I learned from Simon's writing.) People, in general, don't like to be preached to, and former JWs find it especially offensive, I think. They want to find their own way in their own time, and do not want anything pushed at them ever again.
The Christians I like are ones who might mention what they are doing, but don't push anything on me. I will give two examples. One friend of mine is a retired financial officer from a hospital. He serves on the budget committee at his local United Methodist Church. He will tell me about what he is doing and his churches' challenges. Not once has he preached to me. Another friend of mine is Catholic. His daughter is a good singer and sings on occassion at his Catholic Church. He has asked me to come hear her sing. He has never preached to me either.
I have my own beliefs and values. I do not try to convert anyone to my way of thinking. If someone asks, I will tell them, but I never express them otherwise. Ros, that is one thing I like about BRCI. It is a support group that has core values, but it does not push dotrine.
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


Mulan:

Well I hope you guys are happy. You drove away a perfectly nice gal.
No, she drove herself away. She came in here wanting to convert everybody and show them the true faith. If she was only interested in love then she would have told us that and then not started referring to truth, etc. etc.

It seems so unnecessary to attack the way some of you do. I am just venting, but I hope you feel some shame.
Yeah, it's hard for some of us to ignore having her beliefs crammed down our throat as ultimate divine revelation from God.

I wrote her hoping she will change her mind.
I hope she doesn't. I hope she stays in her protected little world where she can be of some use at her church to folks who really need some help. If she comes back here and stays long enough with the preachy preachy attitude, then she's going to be in for a real wake up call!
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


God_Knows:

ALL of you....
Uh oh...

I am so deeply saddened by the abusivness that I am seeing on this board. And IANAO'S continuing to twist my words around, saying mean things I would never say to any of you.
Forgive me for not feeling much remorse at all for "twisting your words around". I realize that much of what you do is what you are taught and that your intentions are genuine and loving. Would you rather I fibbed and humored you for awhile and then try to change the subject, or would you rather have a genuine conversation?

I love you all so very much and that will never change.
I appreciate that. Sounds great! At least you won't be going around being a poor excuse for a human being.

My heart is in anguish at the level of malice and lack of love that I see from so many (I will not say "ALL" because that would be a lie; but it does apply to many here)
The only malice you see are people who don't like being preached to, that's all. Try getting wrapped up in a cult (even superficially) one day, and you may understand.
 
Tina
Tina 15 years ago


godknows,
 You miss many points here. I was laughing at Lisa's reaction to your inane fundamentalism,as I too think it's funny.
 I'm not a jw nor a christian period,so I don't know what you not believing in jw doctrine is supposed to mean.
 I have no use for crusaders and proselytizers and their messages. Simple.......Have a nice day.Tina
psssssst BETHelMOle's the name
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


GK REX LisaOB and any other 'dyed in the wool' Christian.
You all seem to miss the point of the entire post, which is, not that I was trying to prove anyone wrong or right but simply showing that frequently the 'truth we know' is based on nothing more than culture or how we have been acclamated towards religion.
It is safe to say, if you were born on the Mongolian Steppes, you would know nothing of Jesus, but you would still have a code of conduct given to all mankind as a gift from our heavenly Father. (Ifyou choose to believe in God at all, that is.)
In EVERY culture it is wrong to kill, steal, covet, etc etc etc. These laws are universal and do not hinge on any religious upbringing. Therefore all humans can recognize God to their own understanding, even if they don't know a darn thing about Jesus, Mohammed, Vishnu etc etc etc.
I have NO BEEF with 'Christians' or any other religious group. But by the same token I'm not going to sit around and listen to a bunch of dumb asses talk about how 'blessed they are' and how 'unfortunate' everyone else is.
Doesn't that remind you of a story in the Bible, of the man who prayed in the temple thanking God for 'not being like the sinners?' It smacked of hypocrisy, and due to my own upbringing I could spot it a mile away.
Lisa
 
LDH
LDH 14 years ago


bttt
The Dredger's Mistress LOL
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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by Wonderment 3 months ago
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What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
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Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
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How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago



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Dwight D. Eisenhower
by Wordly Andre 8 years ago 8 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

I found this on the web: Eisenhower's family originally belonged to the local River Brethren sect of the Mennonites. However, when Ike was five years old, his parents became followers of the WatchTower Society, whose members later took the name Jehovah's Witnesses. The Eisenhower home served as the local WatchTower meeting Hall from 1896 to 1915, when Eisenhower's father stopped regularly associating due to the WatchTower's failed prophesies that Armageddon would occur in October 1914 and 1915. Ike's father received a WatchTower funeral when he died in the 1940s. Ike's mother continued as an active Jehovah's Witness until her death. Ike and his brothers also stopped associating regularly after 1915. Ike enjoyed a close relationship with his mother throughout their lifetimes, and he even used a WatchTower printed Bible for his second Presidential Inauguration. In later years, Eisenhower was baptized, confirmed, and became a communicant in the Presbyterian church in a single ceremony on February 1, 1953, just weeks after his first inauguration as president. In his retirement years, he was a member of the Gettysburg Presbyterian Church in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.
 
BFD
BFD 8 years ago

I forget where I read that but it sure is interesting. Eisenhower is also the President who inserted "Under God" in the pledge of allegence.
"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." President Eisenhower (1954) after signing into law a bill to have "under God" added to the original pledge
BFD
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

Quotations: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war." -- Flag Day speech, signing bill authorizing addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, 14 June 1954
 
greendawn
greendawn 8 years ago

They were too smart to remain with the JWs it's not for nothing that he was chosen as the leader of the allied forces in the West European war theatre. It is strange though that the mother of one of the US presidents was a JW. According to the dubs, political systems and their leaders are from the Devil!
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

not to mention he had nukes, he could have brought Armageddon!!
 
tula
tula 8 years ago

Forget college! This board has covered a lot of history for one day in this thread. Boy howdy! I sure didn't know all that Andre.
alt
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

So when the Witnesses brag about their standing up to Hitler just remind them that it was an ex-Witness who rode on a Sherman tank into Berlin and got them out of Nazi concentration camps. Not one active Witness helped them.



 
moshe
moshe 8 years ago

A very good point Gary and one I shall use! Preisdent Eisenhower's mother died in 1946, so he didn't have to worry about what she thought when he joined a church.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

I cant immagine how the wactower society would have been in 1914. Everything about the world was different.
I'm not even sure it was the wactower society back then, it might have been called something else.
They used to celebrate birthdays and xmas.
 

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Ida Eisenhower and Jehovah's Witnesses
by Kenneson 14 years ago 5 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Kenneson
Kenneson 14 years ago

Marley Cole in 1955 wrote "Jehovah's Witnesses the New World Society," which includes a photocopy of a letter Ida Eisenhower wrote in 1943 to J.w. I.H. Lawson of Long Island, N.Y. Therein, she stated that she had been in the truth since 1896 and Naomi Engle who stayed with her was also a witness. Since she died the next year, Mrs. Eisenhower apparently died as a faithful Jehovah's Witness. I read this book a number of years ago, but I no longer have a copy. I can't remember if Marley Cole is a Jw. or not. Does anyone know? If so, do you think that Jws exploited Mrs. Eisenhower by parading her as a Jw and mother of General Eisenhower? Since her son, Dwight David, went on to be president of the U.S., he must not have been impressed by this religion which opposes war and politics and was apparently embarrassed by his mother's affiliation since he tried at every opportunity to distance himself from the Watchtower. Dwight, if I remember correctly, attended the Presbyterian Church.
 
JanH
JanH 14 years ago


Thanks for the info. It would be interesting to see if others have any more information on Ms Eisenhower and why Ike chose another religion.
I can't remember if Marley Cole is a Jw. or not.
He tries to portray himself as an impartial observer, but he was a JW. Elder, if I am not mistaken.
- Jan
 
AngryXJW
AngryXJW 14 years ago

IKE was reared in a family of loyal "Bible Students". He entered West Point in 1911, which was the same year that General William Hall served as Chairman at the opening session of the annual BS Convention._________








 
spaz
spaz 14 years ago

Marley Cole was an elder in Encinatas near San Diego until circa 1995; he moved, I believe to a location near the east coast.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 14 years ago


Marley Cole's book was around when I was young although I do not have it now.
It was my understanding that he wrote it as a non witness from an outside perspective, perhaps becoming one later
 
Lollylou
Lollylou 14 years ago


I remember reading the book over thirty some odd years ago when I was just becoming a witness. It was one of the turning points to becoming a witness. I was so impressed that a "worldly" source could even identify "God's organization". This was a source of information other than the WTBTS that was pointing me to JW's.
I didn't find out that it was written by a witness until years later.
 

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Dwight D. Eisenhower
by Wordly Andre 8 years ago 8 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

I found this on the web: Eisenhower's family originally belonged to the local River Brethren sect of the Mennonites. However, when Ike was five years old, his parents became followers of the WatchTower Society, whose members later took the name Jehovah's Witnesses. The Eisenhower home served as the local WatchTower meeting Hall from 1896 to 1915, when Eisenhower's father stopped regularly associating due to the WatchTower's failed prophesies that Armageddon would occur in October 1914 and 1915. Ike's father received a WatchTower funeral when he died in the 1940s. Ike's mother continued as an active Jehovah's Witness until her death. Ike and his brothers also stopped associating regularly after 1915. Ike enjoyed a close relationship with his mother throughout their lifetimes, and he even used a WatchTower printed Bible for his second Presidential Inauguration. In later years, Eisenhower was baptized, confirmed, and became a communicant in the Presbyterian church in a single ceremony on February 1, 1953, just weeks after his first inauguration as president. In his retirement years, he was a member of the Gettysburg Presbyterian Church in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.
 
BFD
BFD 8 years ago

I forget where I read that but it sure is interesting. Eisenhower is also the President who inserted "Under God" in the pledge of allegence.
"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." President Eisenhower (1954) after signing into law a bill to have "under God" added to the original pledge
BFD
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

Quotations: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war." -- Flag Day speech, signing bill authorizing addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, 14 June 1954
 
greendawn
greendawn 8 years ago

They were too smart to remain with the JWs it's not for nothing that he was chosen as the leader of the allied forces in the West European war theatre. It is strange though that the mother of one of the US presidents was a JW. According to the dubs, political systems and their leaders are from the Devil!
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

not to mention he had nukes, he could have brought Armageddon!!
 
tula
tula 8 years ago

Forget college! This board has covered a lot of history for one day in this thread. Boy howdy! I sure didn't know all that Andre.
alt
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

So when the Witnesses brag about their standing up to Hitler just remind them that it was an ex-Witness who rode on a Sherman tank into Berlin and got them out of Nazi concentration camps. Not one active Witness helped them.



 
moshe
moshe 8 years ago

A very good point Gary and one I shall use! Preisdent Eisenhower's mother died in 1946, so he didn't have to worry about what she thought when he joined a church.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

I cant immagine how the wactower society would have been in 1914. Everything about the world was different.
I'm not even sure it was the wactower society back then, it might have been called something else.
They used to celebrate birthdays and xmas.
 

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President Eisenhower and his Jehovah's Witness background.
by Joker10 13 years ago 14 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


President Eisenhower's JW Background.
Introduction
The story of the religious upbringing of the Eisenhower boys is critically important in understanding both the Watchtower and the boys themselves. The most dominant religious influence in the Eisenhower home from the time the boys were young was Watchtower theology and beliefs. Both parents were deeply involved and highly committed to much of the Watchtower theology throughout most of their children's formative years. Ida probably took the lead religiously, and David Eisenhower later became disillusioned with many Watchtower teachings; nonetheless the religion also influenced him later in life.
As adults, none of the Eisenhower boys formally followed the Witness teachings and theology and even tried to hide their Jehovah's Witness upbringing. The eldest son, Arthur, once stated that he could not accept the religious dogmas of his parents although he had "his mother's religion" in his heart (Kornitzer, 1955:64).
Although none of Mrs. Eisenhower's boys were what she and other Witnesses called "in the truth," she was hopeful that they would someday again embrace the religion in which they were raised. They openly rejected much of the Watchtower theology and medical ideas, especially its eschatology and millennial teachings. Nonetheless their Witness upbringing clearly influenced them. Even in later life, Dwight preferred "the informal church service" with "vigorous singing and vigorous preaching" like he grew up with (Dodd, 1963:233). Ida was relatively supportive of them during most of their careers, often stating that she was proud of them and their accomplishments, even those achievements that violated her Watchtower faith.



 Born on October 14, 1890 at Denison, Texas, Dwight D. Eisenhower became the thirty-fourth President of the United States. He served for two terms, from 1953 to 1961. His parents, David and Ida Eisenhower, owned a modest two-story white framed house on South 4th Street in Abilene, Kansas. Ida, a frugal hard-working woman, planted a large garden on their three acre lot to raise much of the family's produce needs. Neal claimed that the Eisenhower's were able to feed their growing family only because of this small farm which included cows, chickens, a smokehouse, fruit trees and a large vegetable garden (Neal, 1984). Dwight and his five brothers (Arthur (b. 1886), Roy (b. 1892), Earl (b. 1898), and Milton (b. 1899) plus David) were raised in Abilene, Kansas.
The values of Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower's parents and their home environment reflected themselves in the enormous success of all of their children. Probably the most dominant influence in the Eisenhower home was religion, primarily the Jehovah's Witnesses (known as Bible Students until 1931) and to a much lesser extent the River Brethren (Dodd, 1994).
Both parents were active in the Watchtower during most of the Eisenhower children's formative years. Eisenhower's mother, Ida Eisenhower, stated she became involved with the Watchtower in 1895 when she was 34 and Dwight was only five years old (Cole, 1955:190). Ida was baptized in 1898, meaning she was then a Jehovah's Witnesses minister.
Furthermore, Ida did not flirt with her involvement in the Witnesses as claimed by some but "was a faithful member of Jehovah's Witnesses for 50 years" (Fleming 1955:1). In Dwight's words she had "an inflexible loyalty to her religious convictions." According to the current Watchtower president Milton G. Henshel, "Ida Eisenhower was one of the most energetic [Watchtower] preachers in Abilene" (Fleming, 1955:1). The Watchtower Society had a major religious influence on Dwight until 1914 when he went to West Point (Dodd, 1959; Eisenhower, 1969).



Ida grew up in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley and originally attended a Lutheran Church. Hutchinson concluded Ida showed a "deep interest in religion from her earliest years" (1954:364). As a school girl Ida studied the Bible extensively and quoted freely from it--she once memorized 1,365 Biblical verses in six months, a fact cited with pride by several of her sons (Neal, 1984:13). The Sunday school records in the Lutheran Church at Mount Sidney near Staunton, Virginia, still contain her Bible memorizing record.
Eisenhower's parents met when they were both students at a small United Brethren college in Lecompton, Kansas called Lane University. After they married at Lecompton on September 23, 1885, they both dropped out of college (Hatch, 1944). Although they each completed only one term, their desire for education persisted--and reflected itself in their strong support for their sons' educations (Kornitzer, 1955). Evidently it was Ida's husband who introduced Ida to the group popularly called River Brethren partly because many of his relatives were involved in this community.
Neither David or Ida ever became deeply involved in this sect, although, it is often incorrectly stated that "Ida and David Eisenhower were River Brethren" (Miller, 1987:77-78). David's father Jacob and his brothers Ira and Abraham were members, but Ike's cousin, the Reverend Ray L. Witter, son of A.L. Witter, claimed that, although Ida and David came to Brethren services for several years, neither was ever an actual member nor did they regularly attend for any length of time (Miller, 1987:77-78; Dodd, 1959:221).
Close family friend R.C. Tonkin even stated that he "never knew any of the family to attend the River Brethren Church" (Tonkin, 1952:48). Both church records and oral history indicate that Dwight attended around 1906 for less than a year (Sider, 1994). Note: The term River Brethren is commonly used in the literature which discusses President Eisenhower, but the officially registered name during the Civil War and after is The Brethren in Christ Church. The term River Brethren is used here because virtually all references to Eisenhower's religion use this term. This term caught on because the first churches were located near rivers.
Evidence that Dwight may have occasionally attended Sunday school at Abilene's River Brethren Church includes the claim by John Dayhoff (listed in the 1906 church records as a member of Dwight's class) that he went to Sunday school with him. When Dwight did attend according to the regular teacher, Ida Hoffman, he evidently "never seemed to pay any attention or take any interest in the lesson" (Davis, 1952:49). Three of the Eisenhower children including Dwight are listed in the 1906 Souvenir Report of the Brethren Sunday School of Abilene, Kansas as involved in the church, but no mention is made of their parents. The listing of the three boys was likely partly due to the influence of Jacob, Dwight's grandfather, an active River Brethren Church minister until his death in May of 1906.
When David's Uncle Abraham, a self-taught veterinarian, decided to became an itinerant preacher he rented his house to David on the condition that Jacob could live there (Lyon, 1974; Dodd, 1963). David Eisenhower's family then moved into Abraham's house at 201 Southeast Fourth Street. David was also connected with the River Brethren through his employment at the church-owned Bella Springs Creamery. He worked at the Creamery from the time he moved to Abilene until he retired (Ambrose, 1983:19-20).
The many other relatives and friends who were River Brethren also likely had some influence on Dwight's religious development. He was physically and emotionally surrounded by aunts, uncles, grandfathers and a great-grandfather, most of whom were lay members or preachers in one of the Brethren or Holiness sects (Dodd, 1994). Gladys Dodd concluded the Brethren, whom Dwight joined on occasion for worship, "were a clannish lot, glued together by common ties of unique appearance and modes of baptism, abhorrence of war, and the like" (Dodd, 1994:1).




A major catalyst that precipitated Dwight's parents leaving the River Brethren and joining the Watchtower involved Ike's eight-month old brother, Paul, who died of diphtheria in 1895. This tragedy devastated the Eisenhower's, and the theological explanation that Paul is in heaven provided by the River Brethren did not satisfy them. At this time, three neighborhood women were able to comfort the Eisenhower's with the hope that they would soon see their son. This comfort was the Russellite teaching that death was merely sleep, and that all those in the grave will be resurrected shortly. In 1895 it was taught that this resurrection would occur in the new world which was expected to arrive before 1914, a mere nine years away then (Gruss, 1976). The three women - Mrs. Clara Witt, Mrs. Mary Thayer, and Mrs. Emma Holland - also sold Ida a set of volumes which were then titled Millennial Dawn (later renamed Studies in the Scriptures) and a subscription to Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, now named The Watchtower. Ida soon became involved and influenced her husband to join a short time later.
David and Ida's interest in Armageddon (the war the Watchtower teaches God will destroy all of the wicked, i.e. all non Witnesses) and the imminent return of Christ was highly influenced by the Watchtower preoccupation with end times events, especially the date of Armageddon. Likely, too, other acquaintances aside from Watchtower followers shared an interest in end-times date predicting including by their uncles Abraham and Ira, both of whom were evidently influenced by the end-times date speculation of the Tabor, Iowa evangelistic sect called the Hephzibah Faith Missionary Association (Dodd, 1994:2).
Dodd concluded from her extensive study of the Eisenhower family religious involvement that Ida soon became a "faithful and dedicated Witness and actively engaged as [a] colporteur [missionary] for the Watch Tower Society until her death" (Dodd, 1959:245). Soon the force that dominated the lives of everyone who lived in the Eisenhower frame house in Abilene was religion (Kornitzer, 1955:134). Dwight Eisenhower's faith was "rooted in his parents' Biblical heritage," and the Eisenhower boys' upbringing was "steeped" in religion (Fox 1969:907; Lyon, 1974:38).
The Eisenhower's held weekly Watchtower meetings in their parlor where the boys took turns reading from and discussing Watchtower publications and Scripture. Dwight Eisenhower was also involved in these studies--he claimed that he had read the Bible completely through twice before he was eighteen (Jameson, 1969:9). Ambrose concluded that the degree of religious involvement of the Eisenhower boys was so extensive that
David read from the Bible before meals, then asked a blessing. After dinner, he brought out the Bible again. When the boys grew old enough, they took turns reading. Ida organized meetings of the ... Watchtower Society, which met on Sundays in her parlor. She played her piano and led the singing. Neither David nor Ida ever smoked or drank, or played cards, or swore, or gambled (Ambrose 1983:19-20).
This upbringing no doubt had a major influence on all of the Eisenhower boys. R.G. Tonkin estimated that when the Eisenhower boys were young the size of the class was "about fifteen people" (1952:48).
The Watchtower followers met in Eisenhower's home until 1915 when the growth of the local congregation forced them to rent a local hall for their services. Later a large Watchtower meeting house (now called a Kingdom Hall) was built in Abilene (Dodd, 1959:244). The composition of early Russellite group in Abilene is described by Dodd as follows:
Mary Thayer first introduced the Watch Tower to the Eisenhower's. This company together with L.D. Toliver and the R.O. Southworths constituted the nucleus of the Abilene congregation of Russellites. From 1896 until 1915, the Bible Students ... met on Sunday afternoons at the Eisenhower home for their meetings. During most of this twenty year period, David Eisenhower (and occasionally L.D. Toliver) served the class as the Bible-study conductor, or "elder" as the group called its leader (1959:236).
Ida remained active in the Watchtower her whole life. In a letter to a fellow Witness Ida stated she has "been in the truth since ninety six [1896 and I] ... am still in ... it has been a comfort to me ... Naomi Engle stay [sic] with me and she is a witness too so my hope [sic] are good" (Fleming, 1955:3; Cole, 1955:192).



Dwight was also influenced by the religious ideas of his father, David Eisenhower. Although his early upbringing was in the River Brethren and he briefly attended the Lutheran, then later the Methodist church before and during his college days, he converted to the Watchtower a few years after his wife did. David Eisenhower actively served the Watchtower for many years as an elder and Bible study conductor, a role which he occasionally alternated with L.D. Toliver (Dodd, 1959:225). Neal even claimed that David Eisenhower was led by the Watchtower into "mysticism" because of David's use of "an enormous wall chart" of the Egyptian pyramids to predict the future. David taught his boys Watchtower last-days theology from this chart when they were growing up. The ten feet high and six feet wide chart "according to David . . . contained prophecies for the future as well as confirmation of biblical events. Captivated by the bizarre drawing . . . [Dwight] spent hours studying David's creation" (Neal, 1984:13).
This pyramid chart was of the Pyramid of Giza in Egypt and in fact was a central teaching of the Bible Students (Dodd, 1959:242). The chart was first published by the Watchtower in Millennial Dawn, Vol. 1 in 1898 and a large wall size version was available later. The chart played a prominent role in Watchtower theology for more than 35 years and was of such importance to David that his
. . . religious beliefs materialized in the form of an impressive (five or six feet high, ten feet long) wall chart of the Egyptian pyramids, by means of which he proved to his own satisfaction that the lines of the pyramids--outer dimensions, inner passageways, angles of chambers, and so on--prophesied later Biblical events and other events still in the future. As might be expected, this demonstration fascinated his children; the chart came to be one of the family's most prized possessions (Lyon, 1974:38).
Russell obtained from the Pyramid many of his prophesies, especially the year 1914 when the end of the world was expected to occur (Franz, 1993:20). The pyramid was also used to confirm Watchtower dispensational theology. Earl Eisenhower claimed that his father used the chart when he was in the Watchtower to prove "to his own satisfaction that the Bible was right in its prophecies" (Kornitzer, 1955:136).
The pyramid was of such major importance to early Watchtower theology that a huge ten foot concrete pyramid was selected as a fitting memorial to C. T. Russell when he died. It still stands close to Russell's grave near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Russell specifically condemned mysticism as demonism and taught that the pyramid had nothing to do with mysticism but was a second revelation, a "Bible in stone" which both added to and confirmed the Holy Scripture record (Russell, 1904:313-376).
A few years later, the second president of the Watchtower, Joseph F. Rutherford, condemned the pyramid teaching in no uncertain terms, one of many of his doctrinal changes that initiated several Watchtower schisms (Rutherford, 1928; Dodd, 1959:243). Dodd noted that the chart was still in the family home as late as 1944, but in 1957 she could no longer locate it in either the family home or the Eisenhower museum nearby and learned that the chart and other Watchtower effects were disposed of (Dodd, 1959:242-243). Dodd concluded the Watchtower items were probably destroyed by the family to reduce their embarrassment over their parents' involvement in the Jehovah's Witnesses. David's commitment to the Watchtower eventually changed and later he openly became an opposer.
Dodd concludes that "by 1919 David Eisenhower's interest in Russell had definitely waned and before his death in 1942 he is said to have renounced the doctrine of Russell" (1959:224). In a letter to Edward Ford, David stated that one factor causing his disillusionment with the Watchtower was the failure of their end of the world prophecies including 1914 and 1915 (Ford, 1995). After he left the Watchtower fellowship, his son Arthur claimed that David remained a student of the Scriptures, and his religious "reading habits were confined to the Bible, or anything related to the Bible" but not Watchtower literature. Although, the Bible was central to David Eisenhower's thinking, Milton added that his father also "read history, serious magazines, newspapers, and religion literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:261).
Edgar Eisenhower stated that his father left the Watchtower partly because he "couldn't go along with the sheer dogma that was so much a part of their thinking." His sons later adamantly claimed that David accompanied his wife on Watchtower activities primarily in an effort to appease her. Watchtower accounts usually referred only to Ida as a Witness, supporting the conclusion that David had left the Watchtower after 1915.
David Eisenhower died in March of 1942 at the age of 78. At this time Ida's nurse, Naomi Engle, was, "a strong-willed Witness who arranged a Jehovah's Witness funeral for David even though he had made it clear before his death that he was no longer a [Watchtower] believer" (Miller, 1987:80). The service was conducted by Witness James L. Thayer assisted by another Witness, Fred K. Southworth.




The Eisenhower's Watchtower involvement created many family conflicts. The Russellites taught that the Brethren and all other churches were not pleasing to God. Their second president, lawyer Joseph F. Rutherford (1916-1942), viciously attacked all religion with slogans such as all "religion is a snare and a racket" (Dodd, 1959). The Watchtower under Rutherford even taught all priests and ministers are of Satan leading their flocks to eternal damnation (Bergman, 1999). As a result of this and other teachings, Dodd observed that the River Brethren and other denominations at the turn of the century:
... were rabidly opposed to Russellism. As late as 1913 ... the Evangelical Visitor advertised a pamphlet entitled "The Blasphemous Religion which teaches the Annihilation of Jesus Christ" as the "best yet publication against Russellism" and the editor thought every River Brethren minister should read it. In 1928, one of the Brethren ministers, Abraham Eisenhower (David's brother), wrote to the Evangelical Visitor concerning Russellism: "Oh, fool-hearted nonsense. It is the devil's asbestos blanket to cover up the realities of a hell fire judgment. The word of God will tear off this infamous lie and expose the realities of an existence of life after death." This strong statement would reflect the general attitude of most of the Eisenhower's (Dodd, 1959:246).
The River Brethren have much in common with the Mennonites, and both were once called "the plain people" because of their simple lifestyle and dress. Although the sect has generally modernized and even in the early 1900s they no longer placed as much emphasis on details of clothing as formerly, they were still comparatively strict in the 1800s. Marriage could be dissolved only by death, hard physical work was a prime virtue, and after the turn of the century members could not use or even grow tobacco.
The early Watchtower teachings were also similar in some ways to the River Brethren, both of which have in major ways changed since the Eisenhower's became involved in 1895 (Dodd, 1959). Furthermore, "a number of the River Brethren had become followers of Russell" (Dodd, 1959:234). Although major differences existed especially in doctrine, the many similarities include both groups were pietistic Protestant conservative sects opposed to war, although on somewhat different grounds. Both sects also stressed the importance of Biblical study, both condemned many worldly habits and both were then very concerned about the last days prophesy and eschatology.




Dwights religious background is discussed by many writers, but most contain much misinformation. The misinformation about the religion of Dwight's parents is compounded by the fact that many Eisenhower biographies and even writings by the Eisenhower sons often declined to fully and honestly acknowledge their parents' actual religious affiliation (Fleming, 1955:1; Eisenhower, 1969). In a collection of personal recollections Edgar Eisenhower admitted only
Our parents' religious interests switched to a sect known as the Bible Students. The meetings were held at our house, and everyone made his own interpretation of the Scripture lessons. Mother played the piano, and they sang hymns before and after each meeting. It was a real old time prayer meeting. They talked to God, read Scriptures, and everyone got a chance to state his relationship with Him. Their ideas of religion were straightforward and simple. I have never forgotten those Scripture lessons, nor the influence they have had on my life. Simple people taking a simple approach to God. We couldn't have forgotten because mother impressed those creeds deep in our memories. Even after I had grown up, every letter I received from her, until the day she died, ended with a passage from the Bible (McCullun, 1960:21).
Even President Eisenhower's spiritual mentor and close friend, Billy Graham, was led to believe that Eisenhower's parents "had been River Brethren, a small but devoutly pious group in the Mennonite tradition." Many authors referred to the Watchtower faith only as "fundamentalists" or "Bible students," the latter term the Jehovah's Witnesses used only up until 1931 (Beschloss, 1990; Knorr, 1955). Lyon even stated
The specific nature of the religion is uncertain. The parents appear to have left the River Brethren for a more primitive and austere sect, something referred to as the Bible Students, and they would later gravitate to the evangelical sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses (Lyon, 1974:38).
Bela Kornitzer mentions only that the Eisenhower's were "Bible Students," had "fundamentalist religious beliefs" and studied "the writings of 'Pastor Russell'" but does not mention that Russell was the Watchtower founder (1955:14, 22, 32). (When Russell died in 1916 his writings were almost immediately replaced those of the new president, "Judge" J.F. Rutherford, resulting in several major schisms in the movement and their transformation into Jehovah's Witnesses).
Even works that include extensive discussions of Eisenhower's religious upbringing, such as the aforementioned Bela Kornitzer's book, discuss primarily his River Brethren religious background which had influenced Dwight primarily during his preschool years, if at all.
A Drew Pearson column stated that President Eisenhower's mother "once sold Bible tracts for the Jehovah's Witnesses," implying that she only flirted with the Witnesses and was never deeply involved (1956:6). Edmund Fuller and David Green, after claiming that Eisenhower's parents were River Brethren, noted that the President's grandfather was the Reverend Jacob Eisenhower, a Brethren minister, and that "the Eisenhower boys' religious training was strict, fundamentalist, and somewhat Puritanical. They were well schooled in Scripture" (1968:213).
Even more common is to totally omit the name of the predominant religion that Dwight was raised in and its importance in the Eisenhower boy's formative years (For example see Larson, 1968). In one of the most detailed histories of Eisenhower's early life, Davis said only that Ida later "sought out an even more 'primitive' and rigid Christianity" than River Brethren, leaving the reader up in the air as to what this group might be (1952:111). An extensive search by the author of the major depositories of President Eisenhower's letters and papers revealed he wrote virtually nothing about his feelings about the Watchtower or even religion in general except that reviewed here.
The Eisenhower boys' Watchtower background is not widely known or acknowledged likely also in part due to the antagonism many people had then, and still have today, against the Watchtower (Sellers, 1990). This antagonism is illustrated in the wording of a quote claiming that "late in life" Ida became, "of all things, a member of the sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses..." (Gunther, 1951:52).
Accounts of the Eisenhower family history commonly repeat the claim that Dwight's parents were River Brethren or were not directly involved with the Watchtower (Miller, 1944). Typical is a Time article that stated only that Ike's "parents were members of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect," adding that "along with their piety, the Eisenhower's gave their sons a creed of self-starting individualism" (Time, Apr. 4, 1969:20). Another account claims that Eisenhower's parents were members of a Protestant sect called the River Brethren and brought up their children in an old-fashioned atmosphere of puritanical morals. Prayer and Bible reading were a daily part of their lives. Violence was forbidden, though in a family of six boys the edict was a bit hard to enforce (Whitney, 1967:311).




According to Pearson, when confronted with his religious ancestry, David Eisenhower looked for a
delicate way to clear the family name of this affiliation. He is sensitive about the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in saluting the flag or serving under arms. At the same time, he doesn't want to appear prejudiced against any religious sect. Both Ike and his brother, Milton, have discussed the problem with spiritual advisors. But they haven't quite figured out how to disclaim Ida Eisenhower's relations with the Jehovah's Witnesses without offending the sect and perhaps stirring up charges of religious prejudice (Pearson, 1956:6).
Pearson also adds the often repeated claim that "Ida was influenced in her old age by a nurse who belonged to the sect. Being Bible-minded, old Mrs. Eisenhower cheerfully agreed to help the Jehovah's Witnesses peddle Bible tracts. Actually, both of Dwight's parents were staunch members of a small sect called River Brethren" (Pearson, 1956:6). Ironically in a Drew Pearson column published only three months earlier, Jack Anderson said, "Ike is strangely sensitive about his parents' religion. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, though the authorized biographies call them 'River Brethren....'
Both Dwight and his brother Milton checked the manuscript of Bela Kornitzer's book, 'Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers.' Afterward Milton privately asked Kornitzer to delete a reference to their parents' membership in the Witnesses sect" (Anderson, 1956:16b). In one of the last interviews given by the family, Milton said only that "we were raised as a fundamentalist family. Mother and father knew the Bible from one end to the other" (Quoted in Freeze, 1975:25). The Watchtower's response to this common omission was as follows:
Though Time magazine claimed Ida Stover Eisenhower was a member of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect, Time was merely continuing its consistent policy of slander in all that pertains to Jehovah's witnesses. She was never a River Brethren. She was one of Jehovah's witnesses. The first study in the Watchtower magazine in Abilene, Kans., started in her home in 1895. Her home was the meeting-place till 1915, when a hall was obtained. She continued a regular publisher with Jehovah's witnesses till 1942, when failing health rendered her inactive; but she remained a staunch believer (Knorr, 1946:7).
Kornitzer specifically endeavored to determine the source of Dwight Eisenhower's "greatness," concluding that it came from his family and their values. In Dwight's words, his mother was "deeply religious," and he once stated that his mother
had gravitated toward a local group known as The Bible Class. In this group, which had no church minister, she was happy. Sunday meetings were always held in the homes of members, including ours. The unusual program of worship included hymns, for which mother played the piano, and prayers, with the rest of the time devoted to group discussion of a selected chapter of the Bible (1967:305)..
Although the group preferred the label Bible Students before 1931, when they met they usually did not study the Bible but primarily Watchtower publications.
In the early 1900s the study focus was a set of books called Studies in the Scriptures written by C.T. Russell and his wife, and also the current issues of The Watchtower magazine. Although the Eisenhower boys usually skirted around the issue of their religious upbringing, Dwight Eisenhower once openly acknowledged that the group his parents were involved with was the Jehovah's Witnesses:
there was, eventually, a kind of loose association with similar groups throughout the country ... chiefly through a subscription to a religious periodical, The Watchtower. After I left home for the Army, these groups were drawn closer together and finally adopted the name of Jehovah's Witnesses (1967:305).
Eisenhower then adds, "They were true conscientious objectors to war. Though none of her sons could accept her conviction in this matter, she refused to try to push her beliefs on us just as she refused to modify her own" (1967:305). Conversely Dwight's mother was not happy about her sons violation of Watchtower beliefs especially their attitudes toward war.
Many reporters termed Dwight's mother "a religious pacifist" (for example see Life Magazine, 1969) as Dwight did. The Watchtower has established in the courts that they are not pacifists but conscientious objectors, opposed only to wars initiated and carried out by humans. The Watchtower teaches that involvement in war, except those that God wants us to fight, is not only a violation of God's law that "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shall love thy neighbor" but is also wrong because Watchtower doctrine considers it an improper use of time in these last days before Armageddon. They taught their followers to be dedicated to converting others before the end, which since the late 1800s has been taught by the Watchtower to be "just around the corner." They are in their words "conditional pacifists" although the Watchtower often argues against all war on pacifist grounds. In Dwight's words, his mother "was opposed to militarism because of her religious beliefs" (Kornitzer, 1955:87).
Jehovah's Witnesses then also eschewed all political involvement because they felt--and still teach today--that the soon-to-be-established kingdom of God on earth--the millennium--was the only solution to all worldly problems (Kornitzer, 1955:276). In Milton Eisenhower's words, his parents were as good Jehovah's Witnesses "more concerned with the millennium which, unfortunately, hadn't come in their day, than they were with contemporary social institutions" (Kornitzer, 1955:278). All of the Eisenhower boys disagreed with the Watchtower view in this area. Milton also stated his parents were aloof from politics but ". . . as I became older, I used to hold many conversations with them in a futile attempt to show them that they were wrong" (Kornitzer, 1955:277). Of course, as Watchtower followers, Ida and, until he left, David were not allowed to be involved in politics--even voting became a disfellowshipping offense in the 1940's.
Often Ida's alleged pacifism is given as the reason for her opposition to Ike's military career when the actual reason was Watchtower theology. An example was her reaction to his leaving for West Point in the summer of 1911, as reported by Pickett. At this time Dwight's
. . . mother and twelve-year-old brother Milton were the only family members there to see him off. His mother was unable to say a thing, Milton remembered, "I went out on the west porch with mother as Ike started uptown, carrying his suitcase, to take the train. Mother stood there like a stone statue and I stood right by her until Ike was out of sight. Then she came in and went to her room and bawled" (Pickett, 1995:8).
Alden Hatch, after recounting the consternation Ida had over Dwight attending West Point--to the extent she hoped he would fail the entrance exam so he would not go, claims that the reason was her "abhorrence to war" (Hatch, 1944:21). Ida's opposition was actually for several reasons, and consequently she hid from her sons her "weakened faith" and "grief" that resulted from Ike's pursuing a military career. The Eisenhower sons' embarrassment about their parents' involvement in the Watchtower is vividly revealed in the following account:
Both Ida and David, but especially Ida, were avid readers of The Watchtower, and at the time of Ida's death there was a fifty-year collection in the house on South East Fourth Street. The publication had arrived by mail from 1896 to 1946. It was Milton who bundled up the fifty-year collection of the presumably embarrassing magazines and got them out of the Eisenhower house and away from the eyes of reporters. He gave them to a neighbor and Witness (Miller, 1987:79).
The neighbor was Mrs. James L. Thayer, one of the women that originally converted Mrs. Eisenhower. The disposal of Dwight's parent's Watchtower literature, charts and other Watchtower items was only one indication of the many conflicts the Eisenhower boys likely experienced over their parent's esoteric religion. These conflicts may be one reason why none of them ever became involved in the Watchtower or even a fundamentalist church.
Another account illustrates the press' tendency to avoid revealing the Eisenhower parents' Watchtower involvement. When Ike graduated from West Point Military Academy in 1915, his mother presented to him a copy of the American Standard version of the Bible used by the Watchtower because it consistently used the term "Jehovah" for God. When Ike was sworn in as president for his second term, this Bible was used (see photograph London Daily News Feb 2, 1957:1). The press reports of this account, though, usually did not quote the words the President actually read which were "Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah" but instead substituting the word "Lord" for "Jehovah." The Watchtower concluded that this misquote was an attempt to distance President Eisenhower from his parents' faith by not using a term that was at this time intimately connected with the Jehovah's Witnesses sect (Knorr, 1957:323-324).
Why were the Eisenhower's (and the press) so reticent about honestly revealing the religion of their parents? One reason is revealed in an article published in the official Watchtower magazine called Awake!
On September 11, 1946, Mrs. Ida Stover Eisenhower died in Abilene, Kans. Private services were conducted at the home, and public services were handled by an army chaplain from Ft. Riley. Was that in respect for Mrs. Eisenhower? Pallbearers were three American Legionnaires and three Veterans of Foreign Wars. Was that appropriate? ... In 1942 her husband, also one of Jehovah's witnesses, died. One of Jehovah's witnesses preached the funeral service. Mrs. I.S. Eisenhower, like all Jehovah's witnesses, believed religion a racket and the clergy in general, including army chaplains, to be hypocrites. She harbored no special pride for "General Ike;" she was opposed to his West Point appointment. It was gross disrespect to the deceased for an army chaplain to officiate at the funeral.
As for the pallbearers. The American Legion particularly, and also the Veterans of Foreign Wars, are repeatedly ringleaders in mob violence against Jehovah's witnesses. Hundreds of instances could be cited, but illustrative is the one occurring the Sunday before Mrs. Eisenhower's death, in near-by Iowa. There war veterans broke up a public Bible meeting of Jehovah's witnesses, doing much physical violence. Hardly appropriate, then, was it, for such to act as pallbearers? Only death could keep the body of Mrs. Eisenhower from walking away from a funeral so disrespectful of all that she stood for (Knorr, 1946:7).
Unfortunately, this article did not discuss how the Watchtower's teachings and policy on military service, education and involvement in "false religion" contributed to the conflicts noted in the above quote. Dwight's religious orientation as an adult was described as "moderate and tolerant, simple and firm," quite in contrast to the confrontative, pugnacious Watchtower sect of the first half of this century (Fox, 1969:907).
Other reasons for the press' and the Eisenhower boys' lack of honesty about their Watchtower background include embarrassment over the Watchtower's opposition to the flag salute and all patriotic activities, vaccinations and medicine in general, the germ theory and their advocating many ineffectual medical "cures" including phrenology, radio solar pads, radiesthesia, radionics, iridiagnosis, the grape cure, and their staunch opposition to the use of aluminum cooking utensils and Fluoridation of drinking water. Dwight Eisenhower had good reasons to hide his Watchtower background when he ran for president. Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president:
Both Eisenhower and Stevenson were vigorously challenged by some Protestant[s]...for their religious ties. The association of Eisenhower's mother with the Jehovah's Witnesses was exploited to make the GOP candidate appear as an "anti-Christian cultist" and a "foe of patriotism" (Roy, 1953).
The thesis that the Eisenhower boys were embarrassed by their parents' Watchtower involvement is supported by the problem which developed when the Watchtower tried to exploit Mrs. Eisenhower's name for their advantage. One reason for the Eisenhower boys' concern was because Jehovah's Witnesses were generally scorned by most churches and society in general, especially at the turn of the century. Virtually no college-educated people were members, and the education level even today is still extremely low, among the lowest of all religious denominations (Cosmin and Lachman, 1993). A problem that the Eisenhower boys faced in the 1940s, according to Edgar Eisenhower, was that "the deep, sincere and even evangelical religious fervor" of their mother was used by the Watchtower "to exploit her in her old age" (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This concern prompted Edgar to write a letter in 1944 to the Jehovah's Witness who was caring for his mother when she was 82. As was the practice then for all members, young and old--and as Jehovah's Witnesses today are well known for-- Witnesses go from door-to-door and "witness" on the street corners, primarily by selling their literature. Edgar evidently felt that the Eisenhower name was being exploited in this work and objected to his mother "being taken out of the home and used for the purpose of distributing [Watchtower] religious literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:139). Edgar added that he was "willing to fight" for his mother's "right to continue to believe as she saw fit, but ... she could be easily and mistakenly influenced in performing any service which would be represented to her as helpful to the advancement of religious beliefs" of the Watchtower (Kornitzer, 1955:139). His concern was that his mother should no longer
be taken from place to place and exhibited as the mother of General Eisenhower--solely for the purpose of attempting to influence anyone [to accept the Watchtower beliefs] ... I want mother shielded and protected and not exposed or exhibited ... mother's home should be maintained solely for her intimate friends and relatives and ... no stranger should be permitted to live in the house regardless of who he may be ... (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This problem was eventually solved by removing the Jehovah's Witness who was then caring for Ida Eisenhower, Naomi Engle, a lifelong friend and certainly no stranger to Ida, from Ida's home and replacing her with a Mrs. Robinson, a non-Witness. Would Edgar have objected if Ida was allowed to use the Eisenhower name for a cause such as education, health or even a church such as the Lutherans or Methodists? Part of what he likely objected to was what he felt was the Watchtower exploiting her to spread a set of beliefs that he and his brothers firmly and openly disagreed with, i.e., the Watchtower Millennial theology.




When researching Eisenhower's religion "Since so little original documentation exists, most historians have relied on interviews with persons who knew David and Ida" (Branigar 1994:1). Of the large amount of information available, one has to determine which conclusions were historically accurate--sometimes no easy task. One of the most reliable sources is Gladys Dodd's thesis because she used scores of personal interviews with the family, many of whom she was personally acquainted with, to study the religious background of the Eisenhower family in the late 1950s. Unfortunately, some Watchtower sources are questionable.
Dr. Holt, the director of the Dwight D. Eisenhower library in Abilene, Kansas indicates that the Watchtower may be involved in passing documents off as real which are evidently forgeries (1999). Specifically, interviews with family members has led J. Earl Endacott, a former Eisenhower library curator, to conclude that it was a 1944 incident which led to the dismissal of Ida's nurse, Mrs. Engle, who was then an active Jehovah's Witness.
The source of this information was Mrs. Robinson, who became Ida's nurse after Engle's dismissal. She claimed that Engle and another Witness conned Ida to write her name several times on a blank sheet of paper under the pretense of giving her "practice." According to Mrs. Robinson, the most legible signature was then physically cut from the sheet and pasted on the bottom of the letter to Mr. Boeckel which was not written by Mrs. Eisenhower but by Engle. Endacott concluded Engle had "more loyalty to the Witnesses" than to the Eisenhower's to whom she was distantly related. Later "in one of her lucid moments Ida told Mrs. Robinson what had happened and gave the sheet with the cut out name to her. When the Eisenhower foundation took over the home, Mrs. Robinson told me the story and gave me the sheet which I still have" (Endacott, N.D.).
This letter she allegedly wrote was to a Richard Boeckel, a young man who had become a Jehovah's Witness while still in the army (Boeckel, 1980). In August of 1944 Boeckel attended a Watchtower assembly in Denver where he met Lotta Thayer, Ida's neighbor from Abilene. In his conversations with her, Boeckel explained the difficulty of being a Witness in a military environment. Thayer then reportedly told him that her neighbor was General Eisenhower's mother, and added that "she's one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and asked Boeckel if he would like her to write to him (Knorr, 1980:24-29). Boeckel wrote Ida, and part of the letter Ida allegedly wrote back to him stated,
A friend returning from the United Announcers Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, informs me of meeting you there. I rejoice with you in your privilege of attending such convention. It has been my good fortune in the years gone by to attend these meetings of those faithfully proclaiming the name of Jehovah and his glorious kingdom which shortly now will pour out its rich blessings all over the earth. My friend informs me of your desire to have a word from General Eisenhower's mother whom you have been told is one of the witnesses of Jehovah. I am indeed such and what a glorious privilege it has been in associating with [other Witnesses]. . . . Generally I have refused such requests because of my desire to avoid all publicity. However, because you are a person of good will towards Jehovah God and His glorious Theocracy I am very happy to write you. . . . It was always my desire and my effort to raise my boys in the knowledge of and to reverence their Creator. My prayer is that they all may anchor their hope in the New World, the central feature of which is the Kingdom for which all good people have been praying the past two thousand years. I feel that Dwight my third son will always strive to do his duty with integrity as he sees such duty. I mention him in particular because of your expressed interest in him. And so as the mother of General Eisenhower and as a Witness of and for the Great Jehovah of Hosts (I have been such for the past 49 years) I am pleased to write you and to urge you to faithfulness, as a companion of and servant with those who "keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Quoted in Cole, 1955:194-195).
To encourage Boeckel to accept Watchtower doctrines, the letter mentioned several current events which the Watchtower then taught was evidence that Armageddon would occur very soon, concluding that "Surely this portends that very soon the glorious Theocracy, the long promised kingdom of Jehovah...will rule the entire earth and pour out manifold blessings upon all peoples who are of good will towards Him. All others will be removed [killed at Armageddon]. Again, may I urge your ever faithfulness to these 'Higher Powers' and to the New World now so very near." The letter dated August 20, 1944, evidently had the taped signature "Ida Eisenhower" affixed to it and closed with "Respectfully yours in hope of and as a fighter for the New World" (Cole, 1955:191).
This Ida Eisenhower letter, Endacott concluded, was "not in the words of Ida, who at the time could hardly write her own name" and evidentially she was not always mentally alert although her physical health was good. Her memory started to fail soon after her husband died and was at times so poor that she could not even remember her own son's names (Eisenhower, 1974:188). Furthermore, this letter is very well written quite in contrast to the letter she wrote in her own hand dated 1943 (see Cole 1955). When the Eisenhower sons found out about this event (evidentially a reporter published the letter putatively written by Ida Eisenhower to Mr. Boeckel) and other similar incidences, they wrote to Engle exploiting Ida (Kornitzer 1955). The letter was evidentially ignored by Engle and then Milton was given the task of dismissing her. At this time, Milton hired non-Witness Mrs. Robinson to help take care of Ida.
It would appear that Richard Boeckel would immediately be suspicious when he received the letter with Mrs. Eisenhower's signature obviously taped on it. He should have confirmed that the letter was genuine before he made claims about receiving a letter from Ida Eisenhower. His story and a photo reproduction of the letter was published in Marley Cole's book Jehovah's Witnesses and other sources, and Boeckel repeated the claims about the letter in his life story published in the October 15, 1980 Watchtower. At the minimum, the Watchtower Society, Mr. Boeckel, and Marley Cole have unethically presented a letter as genuine evidentially without verification. If Mrs. Eisenhower's letter is verified to be valid, the allegations that her letter is a forgery should be squashed. So far the Watchtower has not answered several inquiries about this matter. The Eisenhower museum has agreed to pay for a handwriting expert to examine the letter, but all attempts to obtain the cooperation of the Watchtower have so-far failed.
Merle Miller related an experience involving Boeckel and this letter which reveals the irony of Eisenhower's mother's faith:
. . . one time when Boeckel refused, as a good Witness must, to salute his superior officers at Fort Warren, he said that he was a Witness and that his refusal to salute was "based on my understanding of the Bible." One officer reportedly said, "General Eisenhower ought to line you Jehovah's Witnesses up and shoot you all!" Boeckel then, again according to The Watchtower, said, "'Do you think he would shoot his own mother, sir?' "'What do you mean by that?' "Reaching in my pocket and taking out Sister Eisenhower's letter, I handed it to him. . . . He read the letter ... [and] handed it back to me. 'Get back to ranks,' he said, 'I don't want to get mixed up with the General's mother'"(Miller, 1987:79).
Suspicion that the letter was a forgery is also supported by a Watchtower teaching called The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine. The Theocratic Warfare doctrine essentially teaches that it is appropriate to withhold the truth from "people who are not entitled to it" to further the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1992; Franz, 1971:1060-1061). Reed defines Theocratic War Strategy as the approval to lie "to outsiders when deemed necessary" and also to deceive outsiders to advance the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1995:40). In the words of Kotwall the Watchtower teaches that "to lie and deceive in the interest of their religion is Scripturally approved" (Kotwall, 1997:1). Jehovah's Witnesses do not always lie outright, but they often lie according to the court's definition--not telling "the whole truth and nothing but the truth," which means the court requires the whole story, not half-truths or deception (Bergman 1998). In the words of Raines, theocratic warfare in practice means "deceiving" to protect and advance the interests of "God's people" especially God's "organization the Watchtower" (Raines, 1996:20).
Nonetheless I found no evidence that either parent was not a devoted Watchtower adherent when the Eisenhower boys were raised. If Mrs. Eisenhower's allegiance to the Watchtower waned as she got older, this would not affect the fact that her boys were raised as Witnesses, but would help us to better understand Ida Eisenhower.
In conclusion, Ida probably did not resign from the Witnesses and still saw herself as one. The reasons for concluding Ida Eisenhower mailed other letters at about the same time that she allegedly mentioned her Witness commitment to Boeckel include a handwritten letter to fellow Witness Mrs. H. I. Lawson of Long Island, N.Y., in 1943 (Cole, 1955). Although this letter could be a forgery as well, no one has voiced this concern yet.
In addition, a front page Wichita Beacon (April 1943) article about Ida's Watchtower assembly attendance gave no indication that she was then disenchanted with Jehovah's Witnesses. The article stated that "the 82 year old mother of Americas famous military leader. . . was the center of attraction at the meeting Sunday, and her name was heard in just about every conversation, speech and discussion. The program's subject was 'how to become a good Jehovah's Witness." No evidence exists that only a year later she rejected Watchtower teachings or had resigned. These facts do not prove the letter is not a forgery, nor do they demonstrate the commonly alleged view that she became a Witness only in her later years when she was becoming senile, as often implied by many authors.
Conversely, some hints exists that Mrs. Eisenhower's loyalty to the Watchtower, in contrast to the common perception, waned as she grew older. All of her sons left the Watchtower, as did her husband, all whom became opposed to many of their teachings. Furthermore, when J. F. Rutherford became the Watchtower president in 1916, their teachings changed drastically. Rutherford introduced many - if not most - of their more objectionable teachings such as their opposition to medicine, flag salute, vaccines, blood transfusions, and all other religions, all of which Rutherford regarded as "a snare and a racket" and of Satan. If Rutherford had retained the teachings of the first president, C.T. Russell, I believe the Eisenhower family concerns about the Watchtower would not have been nearly as great.
On the other hand, very good reasons existed for the Eisenhower family to attempt to distance themselves from the Watchtower--reasons which were made clear by some of Eisenhower's opponents, some evidently who planned to use this information to hurt Eisenhower's political career. As noted above, Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president.




 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago


Holy Mackral ! Did you write this article. It's very interesting. I always wondered what the real scoop was about Pres.Eisenhower, now I know. Do you have the Bibliography of this article? I'd like to look into those sources, especially Ike's brothers work. Very very interesting. Thanks for posting!

"Our day will come old friend, just not today."
 
cat1759
cat1759 13 years ago


This was an excellent read!
I thought the double standards were so cute.
Cathy
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


Panda, these are the sources:

References
Ambrose, Stephen E. The Supreme Commander: The War Years of General Dwight D. Eisenhower . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1970.
_________. Eisenhower: 1893-1952 . New York: Simon and Schuster, 1983.
Anderson, Jack. "Is His Vote Record Related To Payroll?" Merry-Go-Round in the Detroit Free Press (Sept. 23, 1956),16b.
Bergman, Jerry. "The Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses Branch of Protestantism" in America's Alternative Religions , Ed. by Timothy White Albany, NY: State University of New Press, 1995, p. 33-46.
_________. The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine: Why Jehovah's Witnesses Lie in Court . Clayton, CA: Witness Inc 1998.
Beschloss, Michael R. Eisenhower, A Centennial Life . New York: Harper Collins 1990.
Boeckel, Richard A. "A Soldier who Became a Preacher" The Watchtower ( Oct. 15, 1980), 24-29.
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Branigar, Thomas. Letter to the author, August 9, 1994
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________. J ehovah's Witnesses; Proclaimers of God's Kingdom . Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania 1993).
Freese, Arthur. "Man of the 20th century" (Interview with Milton Eisenhower) Modern Maturity. Dec-Jan., 1975 17(6):25-28).
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Jameson, Henery B. "Ike buried in Abilene; Massive crowd for Eisenhower funeral" Abilene Reflector--Chronicle , Memorial Ed. 1969.
Knorr, N.H. "Religion Void of Principle." Awake!  Oct 22,1946, 27(20): 323-324.
_________. "Eisenhower book stirs a controversy: conceals fact that parents were Jehovah's Witnesses." Awake!  ( Sept. 22, 1955. 36(18), 3-4.
_________. "Appreciated Parents" Awake! Ap. 22, 1975, 56(8):30.
_________. "Conspiracy against Jehovah's name" Watchtower 78(11): 323-324. June 1, 1957
Kornitzer, Bela. The Great American Heritage; The Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers . New York: Farrar Straus, and Cudahy, 1955.
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Miller, Merle. Ike the Soldier; As They Knew Him. New York: Putnam's Sons, 1987.
Neal, Steve. The Eisenhower's . Lawrence, Kans: University Press of Kansas 1984.
Nevin, David. "Home to Abilene." Life  (April 11,1969 Vol 66 No 14 ), 24.
Pearson, Drew. "Eisenhower's seek to clear mother of affiliation with religious sect." Merry-Go-Roun d in the Defiance Crescent News . (Dec. 19, 1956): 6.
Pickett, William. Dwight David Eisenhower and American Power . Wheeling, Ill.:Harland Davidson, Inc., 1995.
Raines, Ken. "Deception by JWs in Court, OK with Judge?" JW Research Journal . 3(2) Spring 1996, p. 20.
Reed, David. "Court Rules; Watchtower Booklet Recommends 'Untrue' Testimony Under Oath." C omments from the Friends , Spring, 1992.
_______. Dictionary of J.W. eez: The Loaded Language Jehovah's Witnesses Speak . (Assonet, MA.: Comments from the Friends, 1995): 40.
Ralph Lord, Roy. Apostles of Discord; A Study of Organized Bigotry and Disruption on the Fringes of Protestantism . Boston: Beach Press, 1953.
Russell, Charles Taze. Studies in the Scriptures; Series III, Thy Kingdom Come Chapter 10, "The Testimony of God's Stone Witness and Prophet, The Great Pyramid in Egypt," Allegheny, PA: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 1904.
________. Studies in the Scriptures; Series I, The Plan of the Ages . New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1914 Front page.
Rutherford, Joseph. "The Alter in Egypt." Pt. 1 The Watch Tower . 49(22):339-345, Nov. 15, 1928; Pt. II. Dec. 1, 1928, 49(23):355-362).
Sellers, Ron. How Americans View Various Religious Groups . Report by Barna Research Group, 1990
Sider, Morris E. . Archivist for the Brethren in Christ Church, Messiah College, Grantham, PA. Interviews of various dates, and correspondence to the author dated October 24, 1994.
Taylor, Allan (Ed.). What Eisenhower Thinks . New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company.
Tonkin, R.G. "I grew up with Eisenhower." Saturday Evening Post ,May 3,1952.
Time Eisenhower: Soldier of peace." April 4, 1969:19-25.
Time "I Chose My Way." Sept 23, 1946: 27.
Whitney, David C. The American Presidents . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1967.
Watchtower Publication Awake! "Should Christians be Pacifists" (May 8, 1997, 78(9): 22-23); "Why Jehovah's Witnesses are not Pacifists" and "Pacifism and Conscientious Objection - is there a difference?" 73 - 81 The Watchtower (Feb 1, 1951 72(3): 67- 73; Christendom or Christianity, which is the light of the World?  (New York, NY:Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1955), 24-26 subtitled "Is a Christian a Pacifist?"
 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago

Joker10, Thank you I am going to keep this bibliography and someday get through a fraction of this list. Again, Thanks.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


Joeker10 has neglected to mention that the article he posted can be found at: http://www.premier1.net/~raines/eisenhower.html
In an article titled, "Why President Eisenhower Hid His Jehovah's Witness Upbringing"
written by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D, Northwest State College, Ohio.
I'm sure Joker10's failure to mention this when specifically asked by Panda if he was the author of the article was simply an oversight.
 
Loris
Loris 13 years ago


I like to go to the local library when they have a used book sale. People donate books and the sale benefits the library. I found "The True Believer" at one of those sales. I had never heard of it before but the title caught my eye.
The one that I have was published by Time Magazine. In the Editors' Preface it starts out by saying, "Dwight Eisenhower is not a man who goes about insistently recommending books on political philosophy. When, during his Presidency, he pressed Eric Hoffer's book, The True Believer, on his associates, some expected to find it a handy expression of Eisenhower's own beliefs. The book is certainly not that, and many other readers before and after Eisenhower have delighted in The True Believer while disagreeing with much of it."
To me I found that tidbit facinating. I am sure that the editor missed the point of Eisenhower's interest in the subject matter. Was it the threat of Communism or was it the JW experience from his childhood? Did he see the similarity of the JW experience with what Eric Hoffer wrote about?
Thank you Jocker10 for posting the article. It was a facinating read.
Loris
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


Thanks Joker....
As a student of history I found this article very interesting. A lot of background information on what makes a person 'tick'. Dwight Eisernhower's life certainly made an impact on this earth and it is facinating to read about how his 'religious' background evolved.
D.E.
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago

i thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


i
thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
Don't worry about it.... it's human nature to not take as much time with or completely ignore LONG posts.... their misfortune... it was a great read.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


I researched this some time ago for a history project. My mother was a JW during the Eisenhower years. They talked about it like we do today about Michael Jackson and the Williams sisters.
During the JW generation of DDE, home family studies weren't stressed. My goodness, a structured study with householders didn't start until 1937 with the Model Study booklet. In many families around here the grandparents were JWs, skip the next generation, then the grandchildren are JWs. I guess the WTS thought the end was so close that it wasn't necessary to study with the kiddies.
Blondie
 
RR
RR 13 years ago

Actually, Ike's Father was a Bible Student eler, NEVER became a JW, lived and died a Bible Student.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


That's good to know, RR. Then I take it his mother was a JW or was she a Bible Student too? That letter seems to indicate she was a JW. That must have made things interesting in the Eisenhower household.
Blondie
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

Here are some search hits on this topic:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Eisenhower+mother+jehovah%27s+witness +
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Ida+Stover&btnG=Search
Some google graphics:
http://images.google.com/images?q=Ida%20Stover&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Honorable MentionIda (Stover) Eisenhower,
Ike's Mother

Ida Eisenhower, 1902
Although arbitrarily excluded from the top five,
Ida Eisenhower may deserve to be
Ike's No. 1. Most Admired Contemporary.
Eisenhower stated more than once that his mother was
the greatest person he knew.
I posted this in another thread, yet just found this one. Therefore, I'll post it here as well:
http://www.aetv.com/tv/shows/ike/
A and E tv original event...May 31, 2004 8pm--7pm central
"IKE: Countdown to D-Day"
________________________
sKally
 
Bangalore
Bangalore 4 years ago

Bumping this.

Bangalore
 

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Dwight Eisenhower raised a JW!!!
by cellomould 14 years ago 10 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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cellomould
cellomould 14 years ago


Check this link folks
http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html
Just one of the places where you can read a very interesting paper revealing the religious background of Ike Eisenhower.
I am sure many of you are quite familiar with this paper, but it has not been discussed on this site, at least in the last year.
Since it is very long, look for some highlights:
1. Ike's mother died 'faithful to Jehovah'; see Watchtower refs
2. Ike sworn in reading name 'Jehovah' from bible
3. Egyptian pyramids used in early attempts to reveal prophecy
Comments, please?!
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
 
Joyzabel
Joyzabel 14 years ago

cellomould
I didn't read the site, but have known since my childhood that Eishenhower's mother was a jw. But the first question that came to mind about your list is how could Dwight be holding a NWT when he was sworn in when it wasn't published until the early to mid sixties?
jws used the American Standard Bible before then. j2bf
 
cellomould
cellomould 14 years ago


thanks j2bf for catching my mistake
i caught it in time, i hope
i wasn't baptized until the 90's so i forget details like that.
on a good note, it's a joy to be free for me too. been 10 months now!
peace and goodwill to all men!
scratch that
peace on earth among men of goodwill!
scratch that too
where there's a goodwill there's a way to twist it into an evil will
peace anyhow!
cellomould
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
 
You Know
You Know 14 years ago

Ol' Ike has the ignominious distinction of being the only president of the United States whose mother wasn't proud of him. LOL / You Know
 
Joyzabel
Joyzabel 14 years ago

Glad to hear you are enjoying your freedom, too. Life only gets better. j2bf
 
MadApostate
MadApostate 14 years ago


From the webpage you cite:
When Ike graduated from West Point Military Academy in 1915, his mother presented to him a copy of the American Standard version of the Bible used by the Watchtower because it consistently used the term "Jehovah" for God. When Ike was sworn in as president for his second term, this Bible was used (see photograph London Daily News Feb 2, 1957:1). The press reports of this account, though, usually did not quote the words the President actually read which were "Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah" but instead substituting the word "Lord" for "Jehovah." The Watchtower concluded that this misquote was an attempt to distance President Eisenhower from his parents' faith by not using a term that was at this time intimately connected with the Jehovah's Witnesses sect (Knorr, 1957:323-324).
 
orangefatcat
orangefatcat 14 years ago

good morning , hope you had a very merry christmas.
commenting on Ike being raised as a JW. This is true and in fact Ike's mother was one who professed to be of the remnant.
You mentioned the pyrimid of the ages. Known as the Divine Plan of the Ages. I have a an original copy of the Chart of the Ages. If you like I could scan it and send it to u a copy. Let me know.
Its suprising to see how many people over the Society's History were JWs. that were in positions of prestige. Well I think people that are xjws learn quite abit about things that went on in the early times of the organization, including the fact they celebrated xmas. I enjoy learning tidbits on the organization, if u have any to share i would like to hear some. Is it true for example was Brother Percy gay. I met him on two different occasions in my earliers yrs. Nothing really supprizes me any more. good luck to you, and Have a Happy New Years.
orangefatcat- terry.
 
Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago

Hi Cell: When I became a JW in the late 1960s, I read marlay's Cole's book about Jehovah's Witnesses, where he documents Dwight Eisenhower's JW background. He provides copies of letters from Dwight's mother. I remember my parents talking about this issue after Dwight left office after Kennedy was elected. I still have Marlay's book in my collection. - Amazing
 
roybatty
roybatty 14 years ago

Hey You Know, thank God that Ike didn't become a JW. If he had, he would have been like all the other JW Americans who did nothing to stop the Nazis. Without Ike, D-Day might have failed and Europe would have been in the grips facisim for decades to follow.
 
Pork Chop
Pork Chop 14 years ago

I knew an old sister, long since dead, that used to attend studies at the Eisenhower home. She always spoke very highly of him, and his mother.
 
cellomould
cellomould 14 years ago


Thanks for your replies everyone.
that Divine Plan of the Ages thing sounds really spooky Orange. Maybe you should burn it before the demons haunt you.
j/k
Didn't think this topic would shock too many people, especially the old timers. But it's quite interesting in that we don't feel alone ---heck, we can all accomplish at least something, considering what ol' Ike did.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
 

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