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Why I Stopped Going To Fundamentalist Church
Started by ficino , Mar 25 2016 08:20 PM
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4 replies to this topic .
#1 ficino
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :atheist
Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:20 PM
This isn't my extimony! It is by a blogger, Marie Claire. A story many will relate to.
http://www.marieclai...-church-family/
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correction:
Someone on another board clued me in that Marie Claire is the name of the magazine. The writer is Elizabeth King. That's how out of it I am!
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#2 dangitbobby83
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :NO thank "God" :D
Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:58 PM
I read the story - if you want a good laugh or you happen to be a masochist, read the comments.
Edited by dangitbobby83, 26 March 2016 - 11:59 PM.
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#3 ficino
Atheist
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Location:New York, NY
Interests:literature, philosophy
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :atheist
Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:32 AM
Yeah, some funny stuff in the comments, like "umbilical errors."
The Christian push-back is the usual spin:
- claims that Bible is inerrant but disagreement w/ other Christians over how to interpret
- my church isn't like that church in the article
- attacks on the writer's character
- authoritative/authoritarian assertions
- elevation of one's own experiences to the status of norms for others
- lots of capitalization and misspelling
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#4 Fuego
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :communing with nature
Posted 27 March 2016 - 11:57 AM
I was going to comment to the True Believers™, then thought, "why bother with talking to a brick wall?"
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#5 dangitbobby83
Strong Minded
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216 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Montana Mountains
Interests:Philosophy, physics, (ex)theology, music, programming, camping, fishing and video games.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :NO thank "God" :D
Posted 29 March 2016 - 11:04 AM
Fuego, on 27 Mar 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:
I was going to comment to the True Believers™, then thought, "why bother with talking to a brick wall?"
I know, it's frustrating for sure. But not all are brick walls. We were christians once too, and good, solid logic can help plant seeds of doubt (or help confirm the doubt) in people, so it's not all in vain.
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'i Feel Sorry For You If You Don't Believe In God. God Is Real, End Of Story'
Started by Wittyusername , Mar 27 2016 02:39 AM
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15 replies to this topic .
#1 Wittyusername
Thinker
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Location:England
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Agnostic
Posted 27 March 2016 - 02:39 AM
This was said to me yesterday by one of the most hateful people I know.
1. He was told by my former pastor that 'x does not come to church anymore and does not believe in God anymore'. Firstly, isn't there some sort of requirement of confidentiality? Private conversations with clergy are now for public consumption ? I do not want it to become public due to my conservative social circle and not wanting to upset some older relatives who are devout but also sweet and loving. They would never deconvert themselves and all that information would bring is pain. There are plenty of Easter and Christmas only Christians and I was going to pass as one of those for an easy life I suppose, rather than be labelled a devil worshiper and have my child shunned, as I have seen happen to atheists who are 'out'.
2. I did not even respond to this person. He has such a lack of self awareness and is a bully to boot. If he can not think of any arguments (default position)he will resort to ad hominem and I did not quite feel in the mood to be trashed by this cro magnon.
Does it get easier to deal with this wilful ignorance?
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#2 qadeshet
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Location:Dallas
Interests:Science Fiction, Chess, helping others free themselves fron Christianity
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not Probable
Posted 27 March 2016 - 05:27 AM
Yes, it gets easier. Eventually your response will be to laugh. Sarcasm is great in a case like this.
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#3 mwc
Sarcastic? Me?
Senior Member
9,718 posts
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Interests:Things and stuff
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :meh
Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:41 AM
The church is simply a place where people gather intelligence on one another. It's old school (the oldest school?) social media. Anything shared with clergy is ammunition that can be used against you and yours hopefully to shame you into "walking the right path" or something along those lines. If it's not for that it's just for gossip which they won't ever admit to even as they gossip. Don't ever say anything personal to anyone because the second you do it's as good as saying it to everyone.
mwc
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#4 Geezer
Born Again Non-Believer
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Location:Deep South in the buckle of the bible belt
Interests:Religious History, Cosmology, & Theoretical Physics for dummies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 27 March 2016 - 08:07 AM
In order to legally protect yourself from their harassment you must send your church a formal letter resigning your membership. As a member of the church you are agreeing to follow their rules & traditions. You have to legally sever that relationship.
If they continue to harass you then you need to see a lawyer. The church of Christ paid a large settlement to a woman they continued to harass & publicly embarrass.
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#5 Jeff
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Location:South Carolina currently... smack in the middle of it
Interests:Real life pretty much...
Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 27 March 2016 - 08:28 AM
"Thanks for your concern but if you really cared you'd go on a fast for me "
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#6 buffettphan
Godless Freethinking Secular Humanist Parrothead
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Location:Unequally Yoked in the Land of Funny-Mentalism, Virginia
Interests:This Website. Jimmy Buffett Music. Margaritaville. Warren Zevon. Mark Twain. Barnabas. Good Irish Whiskey. Cats. Birds. Purple Flowers. Clouds, The Night Sky, and Space. People Watching. Shrimp and Crab Legs. Dreaming. Analyzing. Mischievous Twinkly Eyes. Laughing.
And Sex.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No because all gods are imaginary.
Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:07 AM
Those prayer chains -- yeah right -- they're nothing but gossip chains.
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#7 violetbutterfly
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:57 AM
Jeff, on 27 Mar 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:
"Thanks for your concern but if you really cared you'd go on a fast for me "
That's brilliant.
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#8 amateur
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No, not necessary
Posted 28 March 2016 - 04:16 PM
I, too, would've ignored the jackass that said the hateful thing.
But I would send a very short note to the former pastor, saying, "I had a private conversation with you as my pastor in which I discussed my lack of belief. You chose to share that conversation, along with my identity, with others. I am letting you know that was wrong of you to do, and it is hurtful to me."
No, nothing would come of it. But I'd still have to say it.
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#9 midniterider
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Monistic Idealist
Posted 29 March 2016 - 01:14 AM
Rip the ex pastor a new one. Call him up and tell him to NEVER do that again. Let him have it. Getting verbally reamed may change his future confidentiality policy.
The other person can just be told to piss off.
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#10 RedStar
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:31 AM
Jeff, on 27 Mar 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:
"Thanks for your concern but if you really cared you'd go on a fast for me "
"You can commence eating again when I believe in God again. Here's a pamphlet for a good funeral home."
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#11 UBFree4all
Curious
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:12 PM
Yea, those hateful people really know how to start up a conversation. I know a religiously devout person who sucks the air right out of the room upon entering and then its like walking on eggshells in her presence.
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#12 Geezer
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 29 March 2016 - 06:20 PM
amateur, on 28 Mar 2016 - 5:16 PM, said:
I, too, would've ignored the jackass that said the hateful thing.
But I would send a very short note to the former pastor, saying, "I had a private conversation with you as my pastor in which I discussed my lack of belief. You chose to share that conversation, along with my identity, with others. I am letting you know that was wrong of you to do, and it is hurtful to me."
Or you could say.....and now I'm suffering emotional trauma from the public embarrassment you subjected me to, but my lawyer will explain all of that when you receive the suit papers from him. Have a nice day & may God bless.
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#13 sdelsolray
I'm Not That Important
Regular Member
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None of the above
Posted 29 March 2016 - 08:13 PM
Wittyusername, on 27 Mar 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:
This was said to me yesterday by one of the most hateful people I know.
1. He was told by my former pastor that 'x does not come to church anymore and does not believe in God anymore'. Firstly, isn't there some sort of requirement of confidentiality? Private conversations with clergy are now for public consumption ? I do not want it to become public due to my conservative social circle and not wanting to upset some older relatives who are devout but also sweet and loving. They would never deconvert themselves and all that information would bring is pain. There are plenty of Easter and Christmas only Christians and I was going to pass as one of those for an easy life I suppose, rather than be labelled a devil worshiper and have my child shunned, as I have seen happen to atheists who are 'out'.
2. I did not even respond to this person. He has such a lack of self awareness and is a bully to boot. If he can not think of any arguments (default position)he will resort to ad hominem and I did not quite feel in the mood to be trashed by this cro magnon.
Does it get easier to deal with this wilful ignorance?
I would walk away from, ignore, not deal further with folks who behave like this. I'm not that important, and neither are they. That being said, I get to choose how to spend my time and how I live my life. They don't.
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#14 Tsathoggua
Strong Minded
Regular Member
208 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Interests:History, Paleontology, Cryptozoology, H. P. Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos, doodling, publishing on Deviant Art
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No, I'm agnostic
Posted Yesterday, 10:40 AM
UBFree4all, on 29 Mar 2016 - 5:12 PM, said:
Yea, those hateful people really know how to start up a conversation. I know a religiously devout person who sucks the air right out of the room upon entering and then its like walking on eggshells in her presence.
Oh, I've known a few people just like that! But most of the Christians that I know are actually pretty nice.
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#15 hockeyfan70
Thinker
Regular Member
143 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted Yesterday, 05:33 PM
Unfortunately, it's hard to sue someone for breach of confidentiality in the church unless you and they specifically signed some kind of agreement or if you have a witness that can vouch for a verbal one. I know because I'm looking at the same stuff myself.
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#16 midniterider
Fully Human
Regular Member
6,133 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Omnipresent
Interests:Chaos Magick, Meditation, Lucid Dreaming. I try not to take my philosophy of life too seriously.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Monistic Idealist
Posted Today, 11:56 AM
1. He was told by my former pastor that 'x does not come to church anymore and does not believe in God anymore'.
Could remind this nasty person that the pastor apparently will tell anyone anything. What kinda crap has he told other people regarding the nasty person's private life? Hmmm.
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Dark Scary Thoughts At Church Today
Started by ThereAndBackAgain , Mar 27 2016 09:25 PM
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10 replies to this topic .
#1 ThereAndBackAgain
Apostate
Regular Member
39 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Wild Wonderful WV
Interests:Life, the Universe and Everything
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Good beer. The joy of living.
Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:25 PM
I went to Easter Sunday Mass with my wife today. I've gone with her most Sundays since we left the conservative Christian church about a year ago. I did wonder during the week whether I would feel some stirring of my old beliefs at Easter. Well, what I experienced was not what I expected, and it was not good, my friends.
No, it was nothing about the service itself, not the sermon, not the prayers, nothing anybody said. It was a bright, uplifting experience in some ways, but for whatever reason, my mind went to some dark places and left me feeling a bit sick, a bit scared, and very unsettled.
It was different from the beginning since it was standing room only in the foyer by the time we got there at 9:55. I had been thinking about a Bible passage that was recently mentioned by an atheist I know:
Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."
During the service I kept thinking about this passage, thinking "that's me they are talking about. . . one who has become an enemy of God by rejecting what he once believed". Now, I'm not saying I became convinced or even concerned that my deconversion was a mistake, but that thought was a very unsettling one.
Then my mind moved on to an idea that I've heard Christians use to explain the problem of Hell, and how it can be compatible with a loving God. I'm probably explaining it badly, but the gist of it is that you only go to Hell by choice, by freely rejecting God and by separating yourself from him. Again I started to think, "Isn't that me? I've willingly and enthusiastically rejected what I previously believed. I've even thought that I don't WANT Christianity to be true any more".
And so it went until the Mass ended. By then my mind was really churning and I was a bit nauseous - this in a guy who does NOT do emotional turmoil and who has a cast-iron stomach. If any Christians are reading this, I imagine they are thinking "Yes my friend, this is what happens when you reject the true God and turn yourself over to Satan. He's got his claws into you and the feelings you had were just a foretaste of what awaits you as you get closer and closer to Hell". All of a sudden, just a little part of me thinks this could be true, and that part came to the surface today. I did not see it coming. At the very most I had expected the beauty of the church and the nature of the Easter service to make me a bit nostalgic for my old faith. What I got instead was a dark, almost despairing detour in my mind.
Part of me is wondering now whether my unbelief is truly sincere, or if somehow I am rejecting Christianity even while deep down believing it to be true, which sounds like what the Christian apologists are describing when they talk of those who choose Hell. It doesn't even make sense, does it?
Well, all of this is not like me at all, and I have felt nothing like this in the past 3-5 years since I started my deconversion. Even last year, going to the Easter Vigil service triggered no feelings like this. Maybe this is happening now because my deconversion seems more firm and more final. While everybody's journey is different, I imagine that some of you have gone through something like this. I don't know if it's just a bump in the road or the start of something more troubling for me. Anyway, I just wanted to get it off my chest and put it out there for you to read. I still don't feel like I fully described how I felt today. I don't feel scared right now, just unsettled, like there's a shadow over me. I'm not going to dwell on it, but will let it slide to the back of my mind where my subconscious can process it. I definitely need to unwind by reading something light before I go to sleep tonight...
As always, thanks for reading, and thanks for being there!
Edited by ThereAndBackAgain, 28 March 2016 - 07:47 AM.
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#2 qadeshet
Apostate
Regular Member
840 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Dallas
Interests:Science Fiction, Chess, helping others free themselves fron Christianity
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not Probable
Posted 28 March 2016 - 06:50 AM
Going to Church unsettled you? Maybe thats why, after 40 years, I have never been back. That Church crap is designed to manipulate you.
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#3 Storm
Trying to Figure it Out
Regular Member
938 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Music, Sports, Family, Cognitive Psychology of Religion.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :My wife. She makes humans.
Posted 28 March 2016 - 07:42 AM
The things you are feeling are common. I suspect that most of the people who frequent this forum have experienced your "symptoms" on some level.
It is important to remember that your brain is having difficulty reconciling the major cognitive dissonance that you have been experiencing over the time your deconversion has been taking place. Our brains want to be "safe" from being uncomfortable, (and ultimately, it wants to be right), so this rift in your thinking extends from this. You know on a certain level that the things you used to believe are wrong and you are currently searching for a new set of beliefs and worldview, but your brain has associated Christianity as its worldview for so long that there is a comfort level it has established within itself. You are now changing all that. In the process of these changes, it is common for your thoughts to oscillate back and forth between the comfort of what your brain once knew and what you are heading toward in your deconversion. You will constantly question yourself and what you are doing. Its partly because that is the way Christianity works (evoking guilt and shame in those leaving the fold), but it is also just how the brain works. I want to encourage you that everything you are experiencing is normal and you aren't going to hell or "making the biggest mistake of your life" as most Christians would likely tell you.
In many ways, you are experiencing grief in the loss of something so significant in your life. While the stages of grief have been mostly debunked, they still ring true in some form in the life of someone deconverting from Christianity. You will likely experience Depression, Anger, you might Bargain with yourself, you may deal with Denial, etc. You will probably deal with most of these, but maybe not. But give yourself some grace. Allow how you feel to run its course. There isn't any right or wrong way to deconvert. That is the beauty of it all. And its also the scary part. The journey will take work, but its worth it.
I am still dealing with anger and bitterness. Its tough sometimes. I find it repulsive to be in the church I called home for more than 25 years. I still go occasionally, and I usually don't enjoy it. I enjoy some of the people that I see there, but outside of them, I don't like going. I don't see the beauty of religion in any form. I just feel angry. I hope in time that those feelings will go away and I will be able to be free finally from the grasp religion has played in my life. But I am not there yet. Being here on the forums has been a huge help. Keep plugging in here and you will find what you need.
Edited by Storm, 28 March 2016 - 08:45 AM.
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#4 Margee
'Madame Eve'
Moderator
6,846 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Canada
Interests:Learning how to be an ex-Christian and be comfortable with it!
This is my 'Please Forgive Me' letter - It is my testimony and I hope it helps someone....You'll have to copy and paste.
http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44259-please-forgive-me/
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Non-Believer
Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:10 AM
ThereAndBackAgain, on 27 Mar 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:
Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened,(Saved by grace) who have tasted the heavenly gift, (grace through the death on the cross) and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (we are finally free from trying to work our way to heaven) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God (through grace and not having to 'work' our way into heaven) and the powers of the age to come (By his grace only) and then have fallen away, (feeling as if we had to work our way to heaven through ''works'', therefore insulting Christs grace and the cross) to restore them again to repentance, (By asking for forgiveness) since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."(insult)
TABA, so sorry this service you visited was so unsettling. That's why I can't listen to any preaching or teachings from the bible that are taught. (in all the hundred's of christian denominations) Every christian church have ways in which to determine what was meant by a certain version of the scripture. In the Pentecostal church that I belonged to, this scripture means exactly what it says...because they take every word literately.
However, in the ''grace filled'' churches (that I attended in the end before I completely got out) it was explained to me that all this scripture meant was that we would be making a mockery of christ (who had now saved us through grace by dying on the cross) but many had now chosen to go back to ''works'' trying to make our way to heaven (like the old testament required) and it was considered a high insult because jesus had now come to destroy the 'laws' of the old testament. Example: The people were still circumcising themselves when that wasn't necessary anymore because of christs' ''grace' and dying on the cross. This, according to the grace filled churches is a high insult to jesus. And according to the grace filled churches, all we had to do was ask for forgiveness for getting back into ''works' again and we would be set free again. That easy!!
Do you see how all the different churches can explain away the scripture? (See above in red how the grace-filled church looks at this) That is why I am even turned off by those who preach or teach 'the grace message' because it's still the same ole' foolishness of trying to interpret the bible.....even though it is a much softer version.....
Hang in there my friend.
(hug)
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#5 Burny
Strong Minded
Regular Member
330 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Canada
Interests:Climbing, Photography, Running, Hiking, Philosophy, Science
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Never Again
Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:07 AM
You may think you have an "iron stomach" but your emotions / feelings don't care how strong you think you are! There is a whole lot of buried 'stuff' deep within you that is trying to come out and going to church makes those feelings restless and gives them a funnel to rise closer to the surface. You've been attending church for many years and have heard many terrible things that will happen to you if you leave, since you were a small child.
The best way to deal with fear is to face it head-on. Instead of being scared of a Bible verse, study it. Find out who wrote that book of the Bible and why they probably wrote it. Discover once again why random words that some anonymous author with an agenda wrote 2,000 years ago don't mean anything in the real world. Discover once again, that if you were born in a different time and of a different faith, you'd be scared of a different set of God's and a different type of condemnation.
It's all bullshit. It's all just designed to manipulate and open your wallet so that a 'pope' somewhere can live in a castle and hear the voice of 'God' in his head to tell you even more reasons you should be scared and listen to him and him alone.
It's all BULLSHIT. All of it.
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#6 hockeyfan70
Thinker
Regular Member
143 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:19 PM
Definitely Cognitive Dissonance. It's kind of like The Matrix, you know? When you change your belief system, there's a harsh reality to it. My whole life has revolved around church, so navigating away from church is very disorienting. And sometimes even heartbreaking. But at the same time I need to remind myself of my own thought that the church is really only concerned about what you can do for it, not for who you are.
I think there will be several ups and downs in this journey, my friend.
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#7 ThereAndBackAgain
Apostate
Regular Member
39 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Wild Wonderful WV
Interests:Life, the Universe and Everything
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Good beer. The joy of living.
Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:13 AM
Storm, on 28 Mar 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:
The things you are feeling are common. I suspect that most of the people who frequent this forum have experienced your "symptoms" on some level.
It is important to remember that your brain is having difficulty reconciling the major cognitive dissonance that you have been experiencing over the time your deconversion has been taking place. Our brains want to be "safe" from being uncomfortable, (and ultimately, it wants to be right), so this rift in your thinking extends from this. You know on a certain level that the things you used to believe are wrong and you are currently searching for a new set of beliefs and worldview, but your brain has associated Christianity as its worldview for so long that there is a comfort level it has established within itself. You are now changing all that. In the process of these changes, it is common for your thoughts to oscillate back and forth between the comfort of what your brain once knew and what you are heading toward in your deconversion. You will constantly question yourself and what you are doing. Its partly because that is the way Christianity works (evoking guilt and shame in those leaving the fold), but it is also just how the brain works. I want to encourage you that everything you are experiencing is normal and you aren't going to hell or "making the biggest mistake of your life" as most Christians would likely tell you.
In many ways, you are experiencing grief in the loss of something so significant in your life. While the stages of grief have been mostly debunked, they still ring true in some form in the life of someone deconverting from Christianity. You will likely experience Depression, Anger, you might Bargain with yourself, you may deal with Denial, etc. You will probably deal with most of these, but maybe not. But give yourself some grace. Allow how you feel to run its course. There isn't any right or wrong way to deconvert. That is the beauty of it all. And its also the scary part. The journey will take work, but its worth it.
I am still dealing with anger and bitterness. Its tough sometimes. I find it repulsive to be in the church I called home for more than 25 years. I still go occasionally, and I usually don't enjoy it. I enjoy some of the people that I see there, but outside of them, I don't like going. I don't see the beauty of religion in any form. I just feel angry. I hope in time that those feelings will go away and I will be able to be free finally from the grasp religion has played in my life. But I am not there yet. Being here on the forums has been a huge help. Keep plugging in here and you will find what you need.
Storm, thanks for the response and the support! I am starting to understand - from your comments and others - the extent to which my brain/mind has been changing during my deconversion process. I and others have spoken of a spell being broken, and that IS how it feels, but I do think the deconverting mind does go through a profound reprogramming in a sense, and that is bound to be traumatic at times. Now I'm no neurologist by any means, but that does seem right. I think this also highlights the need to be gentle and patient (and above all, loving!) with our nearest and dearest who still believe, and to not underestimate the difference in how we now view the world.
Once again, I am amazed and moved by the supportive atmosphere here. Thank you so much.
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#8 Storm
Trying to Figure it Out
Regular Member
938 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Music, Sports, Family, Cognitive Psychology of Religion.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :My wife. She makes humans.
Posted 29 March 2016 - 08:51 AM
ThereAndBackAgain, on 29 Mar 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:
Storm, on 28 Mar 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:
The things you are feeling are common. I suspect that most of the people who frequent this forum have experienced your "symptoms" on some level.
It is important to remember that your brain is having difficulty reconciling the major cognitive dissonance that you have been experiencing over the time your deconversion has been taking place. Our brains want to be "safe" from being uncomfortable, (and ultimately, it wants to be right), so this rift in your thinking extends from this. You know on a certain level that the things you used to believe are wrong and you are currently searching for a new set of beliefs and worldview, but your brain has associated Christianity as its worldview for so long that there is a comfort level it has established within itself. You are now changing all that. In the process of these changes, it is common for your thoughts to oscillate back and forth between the comfort of what your brain once knew and what you are heading toward in your deconversion. You will constantly question yourself and what you are doing. Its partly because that is the way Christianity works (evoking guilt and shame in those leaving the fold), but it is also just how the brain works. I want to encourage you that everything you are experiencing is normal and you aren't going to hell or "making the biggest mistake of your life" as most Christians would likely tell you.
In many ways, you are experiencing grief in the loss of something so significant in your life. While the stages of grief have been mostly debunked, they still ring true in some form in the life of someone deconverting from Christianity. You will likely experience Depression, Anger, you might Bargain with yourself, you may deal with Denial, etc. You will probably deal with most of these, but maybe not. But give yourself some grace. Allow how you feel to run its course. There isn't any right or wrong way to deconvert. That is the beauty of it all. And its also the scary part. The journey will take work, but its worth it.
I am still dealing with anger and bitterness. Its tough sometimes. I find it repulsive to be in the church I called home for more than 25 years. I still go occasionally, and I usually don't enjoy it. I enjoy some of the people that I see there, but outside of them, I don't like going. I don't see the beauty of religion in any form. I just feel angry. I hope in time that those feelings will go away and I will be able to be free finally from the grasp religion has played in my life. But I am not there yet. Being here on the forums has been a huge help. Keep plugging in here and you will find what you need.
Storm, thanks for the response and the support! I am starting to understand - from your comments and others - the extent to which my brain/mind has been changing during my deconversion process. I and others have spoken of a spell being broken, and that IS how it feels, but I do think the deconverting mind does go through a profound reprogramming in a sense, and that is bound to be traumatic at times. Now I'm no neurologist by any means, but that does seem right. I think this also highlights the need to be gentle and patient (and above all, loving!) with our nearest and dearest who still believe, and to not underestimate the difference in how we now view the world.
Once again, I am amazed and moved by the supportive atmosphere here. Thank you so much.
I am glad I could help. I have found immense help here and, if you stick around, you will too. There many good people here to help you with just about anything you need.
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#9 Blindsighted
Doubter
Regular Member
65 posts
Gender:Female
Location:California
Interests:Homeschooling, Christian origins, parenting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 29 March 2016 - 03:12 PM
I haven't read the other responses yet, but I'm convinced that over the last two thousand years "scripture" has come to include verses to keep you from doubting, to keep you from questioning, to keep you from even feeling worthy of questioning, to keep you from using logic, to keep you from reading anything that may open your eyes, and if you finally break free, there are verses to try to scare you back or tell you that you never belonged in the first place. These things are put in there because they know all the ways people get out and they want to keep you in.
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#10 sdelsolray
I'm Not That Important
Regular Member
2,392 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Music, science, critical thinking, history, gardening, film noir movies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None of the above
Posted 29 March 2016 - 08:15 PM
Religious indoctrination and associated peer pressure can be a difficult disease to heal.
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#11 Fuego
Free Thinker
♦ Diamond Patron ♦
1,857 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Vancouver, WA
Interests:singing, writing, computer geekery, cooking, science experiments, foreign languages, photography, gemstones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :communing with nature
Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:44 PM
Hell, that verse causes untold amounts of grief for believers! So many are terrified that they wanked off too many times for Jesus to forgive them and weep copious tears pleading for mercy. Pastors roll their eyes and tell them that the verse means something else.
For us, it is yet another verse written by men seeking to control the flock of believers. I had several people today telling me that I was going to hell and that I believe in shit and other odd things. This is because I pointed out the talking snake and tower of Bable foolishness in their primitive writings. They are firmly controlled people, and they don't want to not believe. But that verse scares them and they sometimes think they did something too far, and scurry back afraid that the devil will get them.
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How To Not Become An "angry Atheist"?
Started by trek4fr , Mar 19 2016 08:29 AM
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8 replies to this topic .
#1 trek4fr
Questioner
New Member
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Possibly creator
Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:29 AM
One of the things I hated back when I was a Christian was "angry Christians." I'm sure you know what I mean, the kind of Christian who gets up in your face, his leather Bible flapping its pages at you, his voice telling you that if you don't accept Jesus, you are going to burn in hell. I was never THAT kind of Christian. I never saw Jesus using that kind of technique in the gospels. He seemed to be more "seeker-sensitive" so I tended to take that approach also.
Now, I'll be the first to say that sometimes Christianity needs to be opposed with vigor, especially when it threatens our constitutional or human rights. Nevertheless, in my deconversion I don't want to become an "Angry Atheist" who gets in people's faces and tells them how stupid they are to believe all this stuff (even if I do think that to myself).
So have you gone through this phase?
How did you deal with the anger that deconversion can sometimes bring?
Did you come out the other side with a more balanced view or are you still angry?
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#2 Shinzon
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:21 AM
I think we all hit a angry phase in religion if it either has effected us strongly or we believed in it with some strength. That is just my crank view on the subject. My way of getting over it was just allowing myself to be angry till it got boring, now its amusing.
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#3 Vigile
Fully Human
★ Gold Patron ★
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nebbiolo, devushki and Kerouac.
Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:37 AM
A lot of people need to go through an angry phase. It passes with time.
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#4 Lilith666
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Location:Hell, maybe.
Interests:I have two main hobbies: I love music and love to read. I also like art galleries, drama, and playing with my iPod. Of course, theology and philosophy are big ones, since I'm on here.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Truth and peace.
Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:45 AM
I did go through a period in which I was extremely pissed-off at Christians and their religion, because so much of what I had thought was true actually wasn't. But that faded as I came to terms with non-belief and the lingering fear of hell also disappeared. Spending time away from that environment as I'm in college also has helped.
I think the idea of the "angry atheist" has been greatly exaggerated, particularly by Christians who feel defensive against the growing secularism in American society. I like to watch atheist YouTubers and they don't seem very in-your-face, even the ones who project a caustic image. They get mad about people trying to force religion on other people, like opposing marriage rights etc., and point out the nonsense that religion mostly is. So they do get angry sometimes when it's warranted. But the so-called Angry Atheist a la God's Not Dead is mostly a caricature of non-religious people by Christians trying to paint themselves as the good guys.
Also, welcome to Ex-C :)
Edited by Lilith666, 19 March 2016 - 10:46 AM.
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#5 hockeyfan70
Thinker
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143 posts
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Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:59 AM
There's certainly a reason to be angry, especially at all the crap that religion does in the name of a god. In Christianland, the opposite was called "righteous anger" - getting angry at things like the Holocaust, the Khmer Rouge, etc. A justified anger if you will. I think it's ok to be angry, just don't be rude about it. You can get your point across better usually when you calmly show how screwed up someone's' belief is, rather than angrily tell them they're an idiot.
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#6 Geezer
Born Again Non-Believer
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Interests:Religious History, Cosmology, & Theoretical Physics for dummies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:11 PM
Laughing at bible thumpers, while they are preaching up a storm, has proven to be therapeutic for me and fun too. Shaking your head in disbelief can be added to emphasize how stupid you think they are. They tend to go berserk when you do that, and that adds to the fun.
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#7 Deidre
Follow Thy Heart
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Back to Christianity
Posted 20 March 2016 - 09:41 PM
When I as an atheist, I went through that phase. But, I didn't want to be a ''preachy'' atheist like Dawkins. lol That said, I've returned to the faith, and I'm still not preachy. lol You may go through a lot of phases upon leaving Christianity. I know that I did. Good luck on your journey. :)
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#8 Jeff
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1,529 posts
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Location:South Carolina currently... smack in the middle of it
Interests:Real life pretty much...
Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 21 March 2016 - 05:13 AM
Pretty damn angry about all the wasted years at first but life is so much better now I've kinda mellowed and accepted the whole experience and just remember the relatively few good parts from back then.
Onward with fewer looks back.
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#9 Burny
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Never Again
Posted 21 March 2016 - 01:01 PM
Losing religion is like dealing with death. Anger is a phase we all went through.
I have to ask what was so "non angry" about Jesus calling people names and inventing the idea of Hell as a place he'd gladly send anyone who challenged him? To suffer eternally.
I think Jesus was one of the least tolerant and least loving people in history.
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I Feel Like A Christian Again
Started by directionless , Mar 05 2016 08:55 AM
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#1 directionless
Infidel
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 05 March 2016 - 08:55 AM
The last couple of weeks were incredibly stressful for me, but surprisingly I made huge progress psychologically. I had been angry at myself for a decision I made 15 years ago that I thought was very, very bad. I suddenly realized that this decision was actually good. I wouldn't change it now if given the chance. When I tried to talk to my therapist about this realization, I became very choked-up and weepy - and I can go years between shedding tears.
An odd result of this progress is that I seem to be emotionally a Christian again. It makes me realize that a lot of my deconversion was driven by anger towards any omniscient being that would stand by and let me make such ruinously bad decisions - maybe even encourage these bad decisions. With that anger gone, I find that I feel like a Christian.
Factually, I don't know what I believe. I have seen God and Jesus in my mind. They seem to do things in response to my needs at times. Only yesterday, I was not looking forward to searching through 1000 scanned images for a particular one. I muttered "Jeeesus! grumble, grumble,...". Then I said "sorry, Jesus.". Surprisingly, the first image I clicked on was the particular image I wanted.
On the other hand, the historical facts of Judaism and Christianity don't support faith. I have problems psychologically. Just a few days ago, I couldn't stop thinking that I had caused my father to get cancer. These weird magical thoughts seem to go away when I get sleep.
I don't even know what I am. I don't know what is real. I do believe that meaning helps.
Here is something on logotherapy that I recently read about. Frankl was an Austrian Jew who survived the concentration camps. He felt that searching for and finding meaning in your life is very important psychologically.https://en.wikipedia...iki/Logotherapy
Edited by directionless, 05 March 2016 - 08:57 AM.
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#2 Fuego
Free Thinker
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Interests:singing, writing, computer geekery, cooking, science experiments, foreign languages, photography, gemstones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :communing with nature
Posted 05 March 2016 - 12:23 PM
Sounds like you are digging deeper into your self, and that is a good thing. "The unexamined life is not worth living" - attributed to Socrates.
I've found my dreams have been telling me things about my emotions and past. Sometimes I have to confront people I hope to never see again. Sometimes through a parable, they show me some emotions I wasn't consciously aware of, but which are affecting how I live. My hunch is that this isn't another being controlling my dreams, but me on other levels sorting things out and needing to deal with some issues.
I wish you well on your journey of self-understanding.
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#3 TrueScotsman
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 05 March 2016 - 02:25 PM
You're reconnecting to a state of mind that you had when you were happier and content, which I believe was likely when you were a Christian. A sort of optimistic perspective on your life, when even your mistakes have sort of brought you along this cosmic journey to where you are. Perhaps it's the similarities in the neural pathways that are connected to your Christian memories, the nostalgic comfort of hope and faith.
Psychologically the mindsets of people of faith are surprisingly healthy at times, which is why religious faith is correlated to better health outcomes and longer lives. However, it comes with negative consequences as well, such as a psychological denial of death, tribalistic proclivities and false picture of yourself and the world.
We are each longing for a more favorable narrative in which to paint our lives, not just improve our moment to moment experience, but improve our overall self image. Which is the illusion from which our suffering springs, we are not just tormented by events and choices as they happen, but we are constantly conscious of this internal constructed identity which perpetually defines itself by one's context. Indeed it is the mental contextualization of the external world, which then informs our internal world, which is usually fraught with anguish, despair, guilt, and self-pity. We lament on the condition of ourselves, without realizing what a trap that way of thinking really is. That moment to moment we aren't some continual self, but simply are conscious awareness, not just of sensations but thoughts.
That's a long diatribe, but I hope you read it in the way one ought to experience reality. Without judgment and compassion.
Wish you well on your search for meaning.
TS
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#4 directionless
Infidel
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Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 06 March 2016 - 07:06 AM
Thanks, @Fuego and @TrueScotsman smile.png
I won't pretend to understand everything in the post by @TrueScotsman. I have not read too much psychology and philosophy, so that limits me unfortunately. I sort of understand bits of it though.
It is strange to believe in Christianity while simultaneously knowing so many reasons to disbelieve. I have been trying to think of some way that Christianity might be true in spite of all those reasons to be skeptical. All the while, my emotional side says the various prayers as though it is all true.
So my current state is believing in Christianity and trying to understand how it could possibly be true. It isn't too hard for a skeptic to accept the possibility of a unspecified God, but it is much harder to accept the possibility of the Christian beliefs. So that is where I am at. I feel better believing in God and Jesus again, but I don't understand how they could be true.
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#5 Margee
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This is my 'Please Forgive Me' letter - It is my testimony and I hope it helps someone....You'll have to copy and paste.
http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44259-please-forgive-me/
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Non-Believer
Posted 06 March 2016 - 08:45 AM
directionless, I have found that by not fighting or resisting the things my brain are telling me and allowing issues that I'm trying to work out to just remain there for awhile, are OK. It's OK not to fight. I feel that the brain must get so tired of us trying to change when we are not ready. When my brain (and I) are ready to make a change, it will. And so will yours. Just try to be at peace with yourself right now until something happens that will automatically make you look in a new direction.
((hug))
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#6 directionless
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Posted 06 March 2016 - 12:31 PM
Thanks, @Margee smile.png
Also I wanted to mention that @TrueScotsman was a very good guesser. His initial paragraph:
Quote
You're reconnecting to a state of mind that you had when you were happier and content, which I believe was likely when you were a Christian. A sort of optimistic perspective on your life, when even your mistakes have sort of brought you along this cosmic journey to where you are. Perhaps it's the similarities in the neural pathways that are connected to your Christian memories, the nostalgic comfort of hope and faith.
I happened to start listening to a CD of Christmas choral music. I have probably listened to that CD almost 50 times over the past two weeks. I began to ask myself why I wanted to hear those songs over and over. I suspect it is because these are old-fashioned songs that I remember singing in the holiday season when I was in elementary school - songs like "Silent Night" that are not as common today. That was always a special time as a child. The whole month of December was an anticipation of Christmas. Psychologically I must be going back to find some things that I need now.
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#7 TrueScotsman
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Posted 06 March 2016 - 12:39 PM
directionless, on 06 Mar 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:
Thanks, @Fuego and @TrueScotsman smile.png
I won't pretend to understand everything in the post by @TrueScotsman. I have not read too much psychology and philosophy, so that limits me unfortunately. I sort of understand bits of it though.
It is strange to believe in Christianity while simultaneously knowing so many reasons to disbelieve. I have been trying to think of some way that Christianity might be true in spite of all those reasons to be skeptical. All the while, my emotional side says the various prayers as though it is all true.
So my current state is believing in Christianity and trying to understand how it could possibly be true. It isn't too hard for a skeptic to accept the possibility of a unspecified God, but it is much harder to accept the possibility of the Christian beliefs. So that is where I am at. I feel better believing in God and Jesus again, but I don't understand how they could be true.
Do you think that a belief in Jesus (who you know never rose from the dead) will actually sustain you? That when life comes bursting in with tribulation (as the Bible would say) do you think the belief that your suffering is preparing you for a weight of glory will support you? Christianity requires belief in order to be effective on the mind, it can't simply be mentally accepted.
I tried to be a liberal Christian for a year after I deconverted, as I didn't know how to be happy and healthy without Christianity. I took some serious time to contemplate my condition and began to ask some really deep questions, but they weren't questions of cosmic significance. They were questions about life at the ground level, of what matters at this particular moment in which I exist. I discovered that Christianity was a form of abstraction, it superimposed metaphysical concepts over reality. Indeed, it views reality as ultimately meaningless without the introduced external abstractions.
Do we really want to for our entire existence, be trying to hide from reality? Too afraid to face the terror of death, which if we only looked deeply at it, we would find ourselves discovering the value of life. Which is found in authentically living in our lives, especially considering that this is our only existence, why not be true to ourselves?
So those are questions I would ask yourself.
1. Will Christianity actually sustain you?
2. Is being Christian an expression of your true self? Or are you just abstracting reality to the degree where you render it essentially meaningless?
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#8 TrueScotsman
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 06 March 2016 - 12:49 PM
directionless, on 06 Mar 2016 - 1:31 PM, said:
Thanks, @Margee smile.png
Also I wanted to mention that @TrueScotsman was a very good guesser. His initial paragraph:
Quote
You're reconnecting to a state of mind that you had when you were happier and content, which I believe was likely when you were a Christian. A sort of optimistic perspective on your life, when even your mistakes have sort of brought you along this cosmic journey to where you are. Perhaps it's the similarities in the neural pathways that are connected to your Christian memories, the nostalgic comfort of hope and faith.
I happened to start listening to a CD of Christmas choral music. I have probably listened to that CD almost 50 times over the past two weeks. I began to ask myself why I wanted to hear those songs over and over. I suspect it is because these are old-fashioned songs that I remember singing in the holiday season when I was in elementary school - songs like "Silent Night" that are not as common today. That was always a special time as a child. The whole month of December was an anticipation of Christmas. Psychologically I must be going back to find some things that I need now.I hope that's something you understand, which is that we all here understand what you're going through. I don't just know things about psychology, I have been in your shoes. A bonafide nonbeliever listening to Christian music, longing to go back to the simplicity and comfort that faith provided.
Because the reality of god being dead means that we are alone, there is no one but us spinning on this planet who cares or matters. No cosmic force that is guiding your life along some trajectory to a happier place, there is just the unknown of the future and the reality of our present choices.
Honestly, I think circumstances would likely bring you back here, after you realize that you've taken the red pill, and there is no returning to the Matrix (a fitting analogy). The decision however is yours to make.
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#9 directionless
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Posted 06 March 2016 - 01:51 PM
Thanks, @TrueScotsman
I agree that traditional Christianity requires belief in a historical narrative that isn't fully accurate. Personally, I believe a historical Jesus probably existed, but I do not believe the historical narrative of Judaism. Judaism is total and complete malarkey. How could the Son of God be a Jew? How could the historical Jesus have done his ministry without ever bothering to tell his disciples that the Torah is bunk. Granted, Christianity superseded the Torah eventually, and Jesus pointed out the need to practice the higher meaning of the Law, but Jesus never said the historical narrative of the Torah was malarkey. Apparently the historical Jesus did not know this.
However, I have seen Jesus in a dream, and I like to believe He exists somehow. I have wondered if belief in the mythical Jesus might solve the problem and make Christianity work. Maybe God inspired the myth of Jesus as an icon of the actual spiritual Jesus. That is the direction I am thinking.
Edited by directionless, 06 March 2016 - 01:56 PM.
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#10 TrueScotsman
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Posted 06 March 2016 - 03:27 PM
directionless, on 06 Mar 2016 - 2:51 PM, said:
Thanks, @TrueScotsman
I agree that traditional Christianity requires belief in a historical narrative that isn't fully accurate. Personally, I believe a historical Jesus probably existed, but I do not believe the historical narrative of Judaism. Judaism is total and complete malarkey. How could the Son of God be a Jew? How could the historical Jesus have done his ministry without ever bothering to tell his disciples that the Torah is bunk. Granted, Christianity superseded the Torah eventually, and Jesus pointed out the need to practice the higher meaning of the Law, but Jesus never said the historical narrative of the Torah was malarkey. Apparently the historical Jesus did not know this.
However, I have seen Jesus in a dream, and I like to believe He exists somehow. I have wondered if belief in the mythical Jesus might solve the problem and make Christianity work. Maybe God inspired the myth of Jesus as an icon of the actual spiritual Jesus. That is the direction I am thinking.
Can I ask a more basic question that I think is at the heart of this?
Why do you want Christianity work?
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#11 directionless
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Posted 06 March 2016 - 09:54 PM
TrueScotsman, on 06 Mar 2016 - 4:27 PM, said:
Can I ask a more basic question that I think is at the heart of this?
Why do you want Christianity work?
(1) Part of who I am is a Christian. My family members are Christians, and I like to have a shared belief.
(2) I enjoy having God to thank and to describe my difficulties.
(3) Christianity is natural for me.
(4) And lastly, I have personal experiences that suggest the existence of God and Jesus. It's interesting how experiences happening every few years over a twenty year period seem to form a narrative.
This recent realization has been a new data point that has changed my evaluation of all previous data points.
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#12 TrueScotsman
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Posted 06 March 2016 - 11:19 PM
directionless, on 06 Mar 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:
TrueScotsman, on 06 Mar 2016 - 4:27 PM, said:
Can I ask a more basic question that I think is at the heart of this?
Why do you want Christianity work?
(1) Part of who I am is a Christian. My family members are Christians, and I like to have a shared belief.
(2) I enjoy having God to thank and to describe my difficulties.
(3) Christianity is natural for me.
(4) And lastly, I have personal experiences that suggest the existence of God and Jesus. It's interesting how experiences happening every few years over a twenty year period seem to form a narrative.
This recent realization has been a new data point that has changed my evaluation of all previous data points.1) Were you born a Christian, or is that the particular religion you were born into? Does it trouble you that if you were born in India you'd perhaps be going back to Krishna?
2) Can you really thank god by having sufficient evidence for his metaphysical involvement. Or is it better to understand these as complex emotional interpretations of events and self-contemplation?
3) Would Islam seem natural for you if you grew up in Yemen?
4) Do they actually from a narrative, or is it a subconsciously constructed narrative of the mind as a sort emotional coping mechanism? That's how I look back on it, when really the issues I was dealing with were actually tied to concrete realities in my life.
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#13 Shinzon
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:51 AM
Composition fallacy
Just ponder it?
Edited by Shinzon, 07 March 2016 - 06:51 AM.
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#14 directionless
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:57 AM
TrueScotsman, on 07 Mar 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:
1) Were you born a Christian, or is that the particular religion you were born into? Does it trouble you that if you were born in India you'd perhaps be going back to Krishna?
2) Can you really thank god by having sufficient evidence for his metaphysical involvement. Or is it better to understand these as complex emotional interpretations of events and self-contemplation?
3) Would Islam seem natural for you if you grew up in Yemen?
4) Do they actually from a narrative, or is it a subconsciously constructed narrative of the mind as a sort emotional coping mechanism? That's how I look back on it, when really the issues I was dealing with were actually tied to concrete realities in my life.
1) Yes, born Christian (5th generation Episcopalian. My great great grandfather helped build the little church I was baptized in .... then he was excommunicated for never attending church LOL)
2) For me it is a choice between: psychosis, reality, and maybe a mixture of both. I also spend time on a psychological forum, but my symptoms are somewhat different than psychosis. There are similarities and differences. Sometimes I wonder if God talks to people through their imaginations, and mentally unstable people are better able to hear God. That creates a mixture of random psychosis and God-inspired psychosis.
3) Yes, but my hypothesis is that God is not owned by any particular religion. I suspect God inspires modifications in religions to steer them in the proper direction over time. The most natural way for me to interact with God is to use my Christian model. Otherwise I must say "God, I'm not sure if you exist, I'm not sure what your name is, I'm not sure what you want, but ..." That is awkward.
4) They definitely seem form a narrative. I could describe it but then you would think I am bat-shit crazy (of course it is probably too late to prevent that for anybody who has paid attention to my posts over the years LOL)
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#15 directionless
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:59 AM
Shinzon, on 07 Mar 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:
Composition fallacy
Just ponder it?
ponder, ponder, ponder, ... wink.png
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#16 Shinzon
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:07 AM
directionless, on 07 Mar 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:
Shinzon, on 07 Mar 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:
Composition fallacyJust ponder it?
ponder, ponder, ponder, ... wink.pngpoint being, part of the whole dont prove the whole
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#17 TrueScotsman
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:01 AM
@directionless
1) If you were born in India, do you think you'd likely be pulled back to Hinduism in much the same way that you're pulled back to Christianity?
2) Psychology has been hesitant to fully criticize the neurological foundations for religious belief, but the data is rather conclusive so far. Religious belief uses the limbic system of the brain, rather than the prefrontal cortex. The mammalian/lizard brain as it is often called is representative of the evolutionary origin for this region of the brain. Many of our baser passions find their foundation here, and many chemicals in the brain such as DMT from the pineal gland facilitate the altered consciousness one often feels with religious experiences. The beginning of understanding the falsity of religion comes with accurately understanding the state of our brain, and why and how we actually believe things.
3) Well, what does Jesus look like in those dreams? Does he look like an adult Palestinian Jew from the 1st Century AD? Does he look like a spock-like adult white male often represented in western Christianity? Even our conceptions of a historical Jesus of Nazareth is so completely burdened with the baggage of western perspectives that emphasize western superiority (i.e. the European/White Jesus). So while you indicate you have no particular religion you're appealing to, it seems to be rooted in Christian symbolism as that is the cultural expression of god you're familiar with. This shows that it doesn't seem you're connecting with an actual god, just the evolutionary concept of god that is particular to your culture of birth.
4) We're all ex-Christians, I would rather hope we don't judge each other for views that we currently hold or have previously held. Religious belief not being centered in the neocortex is a very ancient type of behavior, it comes out of the construction of the self as unique to human-kind in the animal kingdom. That these primates had become to aware of themselves and others that they constructed vivid social concepts of themselves in relation to the external world (nature, other people). In order for an ancient person to have a feasible concept of the external world it would be necessary to accept the existence of abstract universal truths in order to explain phenomenon. That the stars projected not light onto the planet, but that mankind projected their own stories onto the stars. Mankind rewrote the narrative of the cosmos with himself at the center, anthropomorphized in the image of a god from whom we all have our being.
Nonetheless, we all recognize our biological and distinctly physical nature. None of us experienced special creation, but were held in a placenta like all other mammals, gestated from an egg like all other sexually reproducing organisms. This doesn't deny the value of consciousness and the fact that we do have a more advanced sentience than any other being, but our evolutionary history does reveal one important fact about human nature.
It is most easiest to believe, what one wants to believe. A fact that should scare us.
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#18 florduh
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:11 AM
Quote
I feel better believing in God and Jesus again, but I don't understand how they could be true.
Everyone feels better if they think magic is real, Santa is on his way and fairies populate your garden. But we grow up, we begin to understand reality and we (hopefully) begin to think critically. The brainwashing of religion and the carefully crafted community and infrastructure can be emotionally attractive, but you can't see how it can be true. Trust your brain and learn to live in the real world. Real life, once embraced, is much more satisfying than the false world of religious superstition. Living a comforting lie is no way to live.
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#19 directionless
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:25 PM
Shinzon, on 07 Mar 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:
directionless, on 07 Mar 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:
Shinzon, on 07 Mar 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:
Composition fallacyJust ponder it?
ponder, ponder, ponder, ... wink.png
point being, part of the whole dont prove the whole
That is true. I tend to think that nothing can be known for certain.
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#20 directionless
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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:41 PM
florduh, on 07 Mar 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:
Quote
I feel better believing in God and Jesus again, but I don't understand how they could be true.
Everyone feels better if they think magic is real, Santa is on his way and fairies populate your garden. But we grow up, we begin to understand reality and we (hopefully) begin to think critically. The brainwashing of religion and the carefully crafted community and infrastructure can be emotionally attractive, but you can't see how it can be true. Trust your brain and learn to live in the real world. Real life, once embraced, is much more satisfying than the false world of religious superstition. Living a comforting lie is no way to live.
That is true. I have been trying to remember my reasons for disbelieving in Christianity. Clearly a big factor for me was being incredibly bitter about my life. One of the pastors on the Trinity Broadcast Network gave a sermon on why people walk away from God. Bitterness was his answer, and he hit the nail on the head in my case. So with the bitterness mostly gone, I believe again (emotionally).
I wasn't a fundamentalist, so the typical arguments against belief don't work as effectively for me. The most effective argument was to learn about the polytheistic origins of Judaism and ask myself why Jesus seemed to be fooled like almost every other Jew of his time. I suppose part of being human was being ignorant, but why manifest as a believer in Judaism? Apparently many Gentiles admired Judaism, so maybe it was the best religion available. If Judaism was truly God's commands, then why isn't it better? Judaism is a fine religion, but there are many other fine religions.
Edited by directionless, 07 March 2016 - 08:44 PM.
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I Feel Like A Christian Again
Started by directionless , Mar 05 2016 08:55 AM
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42 replies to this topic .
#21 directionless
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 05:48 PM
Well, now I seem to be losing my faith again. I don't know what happened. sad.png It felt so nice to be a Christian again - even if only at the emotional level. I hope it will happen again, because I don't like my normal atheist state, but that seems to be where I am again.
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#22 rjn
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nah. A spiritual world view at best.
Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:20 PM
Some would argue that there was nothing special about the Jews, nor were they originally the chosen people. Their ancestor Abraham however, was handpicked by God, and his descendants continued the beliefs and traditions laid down by him. The Jews became a chosen people, rather than being one from the onset.
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#23 florduh
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:59 PM
directionless, on 14 Mar 2016 - 6:48 PM, said:
Well, now I seem to be losing my faith again. I don't know what happened. sad.png It felt so nice to be a Christian again - even if only at the emotional level. I hope it will happen again, because I don't like my normal atheist state, but that seems to be where I am again.
Pardon me if haven't been keeping up, but have you been diagnosed as bipolar?
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#24 sdelsolray
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:31 PM
directionless, on 14 Mar 2016 - 6:48 PM, said:
Well, now I seem to be losing my faith again. I don't know what happened. sad.png It felt so nice to be a Christian again - even if only at the emotional level. I hope it will happen again, because I don't like my normal atheist state, but that seems to be where I am again.
I suggest you focus a bit more on the causes of your mental illness instead of the results of it.
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#25 directionless
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:36 PM
florduh, on 14 Mar 2016 - 8:59 PM, said:
directionless, on 14 Mar 2016 - 6:48 PM, said:
Well, now I seem to be losing my faith again. I don't know what happened. sad.png It felt so nice to be a Christian again - even if only at the emotional level. I hope it will happen again, because I don't like my normal atheist state, but that seems to be where I am again.
Pardon me if haven't been keeping up, but have you been diagnosed as bipolar?
The only official diagnosis I'm aware of was from about 3 years ago. The therapist thought I had depression with anxiety (o.k.), social anxiety (o.k.), brief psychotic disorder (I debate that one with myself), delusional disorder (I'm even less convinced on that one). The therapist that made that diagnosis told me that it seemed like a very mild delusional disorder, but she wasn't certain.
EDIT: The post was too long and rambling, so I deleted that part.
Edited by directionless, 14 March 2016 - 09:28 PM.
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#26 directionless
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:44 PM
rjn, on 14 Mar 2016 - 8:20 PM, said:
Some would argue that there was nothing special about the Jews, nor were they originally the chosen people. Their ancestor Abraham however, was handpicked by God, and his descendants continued the beliefs and traditions laid down by him. The Jews became a chosen people, rather than being one from the onset.
I have never heard that idea, but it sounds interesting. So the Jews aped Abraham, so that they could be chosen like Abraham. The Christians aped Jesus, so that they could be chosen like Jesus. (Right now I don't feel very inspired to be honest - just a grumpy atheist again.)
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#27 directionless
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:52 PM
sdelsolray, on 14 Mar 2016 - 9:31 PM, said:
directionless, on 14 Mar 2016 - 6:48 PM, said:
Well, now I seem to be losing my faith again. I don't know what happened. sad.png It felt so nice to be a Christian again - even if only at the emotional level. I hope it will happen again, because I don't like my normal atheist state, but that seems to be where I am again.
I suggest you focus a bit more on the causes of your mental illness instead of the results of it.
That is good advice.
Edited by directionless, 14 March 2016 - 09:10 PM.
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#28 directionless
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 09:33 PM
Sorry, everybody, I know my posts are probably a bit weird often. Whenever I try to say what I think, it always sounds weird when I read it.
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#29 hockeyfan70
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Posted 15 March 2016 - 12:00 AM
I'm at the beginning stages, so I'm kind of going through the stages of grief that Kubler-Ross talks about. Disbelief, bargaining, sadness, acceptance, etc. I certainly feel more free. But I also feel more alone, because my church was my tribe. Now they aren't. I think going through phases happens to some people, so don't sweat it. :)
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#30 directionless
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Posted 15 March 2016 - 07:27 AM
hockeyfan70, on 15 Mar 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:
I'm at the beginning stages, so I'm kind of going through the stages of grief that Kubler-Ross talks about. Disbelief, bargaining, sadness, acceptance, etc. I certainly feel more free. But I also feel more alone, because my church was my tribe. Now they aren't. I think going through phases happens to some people, so don't sweat it. smile.png
Thanks, @hockeyfan70 smile.png
I hope your adjustment is as smooth as possible. It is never easy, but some people seem to adjust quicker than others. @florduh had some very good observations in an earlier thread about what makes the adjustment harder or easier for people. Maybe I can find it and post a link.
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#31 directionless
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Posted 15 March 2016 - 09:03 PM
Here is that quote I mentioned from @florduh about why deconversion is harder for some than others.
Quote
Once the average person is removed from being immersed in propaganda they can't help but start to observe and think. It's hard to leave religion when your family is caught up in the insanity. It's hard to leave if the religion feeds some mental dysfunction. It's hard to leave just because of inertia. Stronger personalities who are naturally logical probably have an easier exit. Education and intelligence help too.http://www.ex-christ...d/#.Vui-PI-cG1s
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#32 rjn
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Interests:Nature, philosophy, history, linguistics, mythology, science, music, literature.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nah. A spiritual world view at best.
Posted 16 March 2016 - 07:09 AM
directionless, on 14 Mar 2016 - 9:44 PM, said:
rjn, on 14 Mar 2016 - 8:20 PM, said:
Some would argue that there was nothing special about the Jews, nor were they originally the chosen people. Their ancestor Abraham however, was handpicked by God, and his descendants continued the beliefs and traditions laid down by him. The Jews became a chosen people, rather than being one from the onset.
I have never heard that idea, but it sounds interesting. So the Jews aped Abraham, so that they could be chosen like Abraham. The Christians aped Jesus, so that they could be chosen like Jesus. (Right now I don't feel very inspired to be honest - just a grumpy atheist again.)
I found that stuff at a Christian site, so it's not as if I came up with it. It really changes nothing though, as far as theology goes, the end result is the same: the Jews were God's chosen people (now how arrogant isn't that?) and the Christians took up the flag with the new Covenant of Christ.
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#33 hockeyfan70
Thinker
Regular Member
143 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted 16 March 2016 - 09:12 PM
directionless, on 15 Mar 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:
hockeyfan70, on 15 Mar 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:
I'm at the beginning stages, so I'm kind of going through the stages of grief that Kubler-Ross talks about. Disbelief, bargaining, sadness, acceptance, etc. I certainly feel more free. But I also feel more alone, because my church was my tribe. Now they aren't. I think going through phases happens to some people, so don't sweat it. smile.png
Thanks, @hockeyfan70 smile.png
I hope your adjustment is as smooth as possible. It is never easy, but some people seem to adjust quicker than others. @florduh had some very good observations in an earlier thread about what makes the adjustment harder or easier for people. Maybe I can find it and post a link.
I think it's helpful that I really have taken myself completely out of the Christian culture completely. Which is crazy because I was immersed in it for so long. Now my bullshit detector is working, maybe for first time.
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#34 hockeyfan70
Thinker
Regular Member
143 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted 16 March 2016 - 09:15 PM
directionless, on 15 Mar 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:
Here is that quote I mentioned from @florduh about why deconversion is harder for some than others.
Quote
Once the average person is removed from being immersed in propaganda they can't help but start to observe and think. It's hard to leave religion when your family is caught up in the insanity. It's hard to leave if the religion feeds some mental dysfunction. It's hard to leave just because of inertia. Stronger personalities who are naturally logical probably have an easier exit. Education and intelligence help too.http://www.ex-christ...d/#.Vui-PI-cG1s
Cool. Thanks for posting this! I would consider myself pretty intelligent but I unfortunately make my decisions more with how I feel. (I'm an INFP). Which makes me wonder - do certain personality types help dictate whether you are religious or not? Like do people who make decisions through feeling gravitate more towards religion than people who make decisions through thinking?
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#35 ThereAndBackAgain
Apostate
Regular Member
39 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Wild Wonderful WV
Interests:Life, the Universe and Everything
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Good beer. The joy of living.
Posted 16 March 2016 - 10:02 PM
Hockeyfan70:
"Which makes me wonder - do certain personality types help dictate whether you are religious or not? Like do people who make decisions through feeling gravitate more towards religion than people who make decisions through thinking?"
Oh I think that's true! Isn't it the case that women tend to be more religious than men? I think I'm not emotion-driven so much, and maybe this is why I shed religion relatively smoothly - so far at least...
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#36 directionless
Infidel
Senior Member
1,429 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 17 March 2016 - 09:10 AM
hockeyfan70, on 16 Mar 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:
Cool. Thanks for posting this! I would consider myself pretty intelligent but I unfortunately make my decisions more with how I feel. (I'm an INFP). Which makes me wonder - do certain personality types help dictate whether you are religious or not? Like do people who make decisions through feeling gravitate more towards religion than people who make decisions through thinking?
That is a good point. I think I might be INFP somewhat too. (I had never heard that acronym, so I had to look it up. Learn something new every day. smile.png )
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#37 Shinzon
Strong Minded
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:25 AM
Occasionally out of masochism i look up look up sermons and like christian living advice, kind of a nice haha moment every time where i go "how could anyone miss this!".
Point being, yeah fuzzy wuzzies are nice but what is real and what is just sentimental horshit. Determine that for yourself is my advice.
Edited by Shinzon, 17 March 2016 - 11:27 AM.
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#38 directionless
Infidel
Senior Member
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:51 PM
I don't understand what is wrong with me. I felt so good the last several weeks, and I also believed in God again (see post #1). Then it just evaporated in a day. I decided to go for a walk to get some sunshine, and I could feel it evaporating. By the time, I finished the walk, I was my depressed and discouraged old self again.
Believing in God or not believing in God is irrelevant. What I care about is living my life in a hopeful and positive way. I felt like I had something promising briefly, but it slipped out of my fingers. I suppose a Christian might say I grieved the Holy Spirit ... by going for a walk LOL. I would like to get back to how I felt before I lost faith in God again a week ago.
I'm trying to hold on to some of the realizations I made about my life and the bitterness I had felt for so long. Those realizations seem to be only words now. I seem to have lost faith in them too.
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#39 dangitbobby83
Strong Minded
Regular Member
216 posts
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Location:Montana Mountains
Interests:Philosophy, physics, (ex)theology, music, programming, camping, fishing and video games.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :NO thank "God" :D
Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:19 PM
directionless, on 22 Mar 2016 - 9:51 PM, said:
I don't understand what is wrong with me. I felt so good the last several weeks, and I also believed in God again (see post #1). Then it just evaporated in a day. I decided to go for a walk to get some sunshine, and I could feel it evaporating. By the time, I finished the walk, I was my depressed and discouraged old self again.
Emotions are fickle and can easily lie to us. They cannot be trusted as sources of truth because they change easily.
You said you felt like you knew god again - christian god, of course. A hindu would feel the same thing, but apply it to Krishna instead.
The only objective evidence that these feelings supply...is that they exist and your brain is capable of having them. There are other underlying causes to them. Getting the "feels" for Jesus is the same as getting the feels for Vishnu or Allah. The only reason you felt "jesus" is because christianity is the culture here.
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#40 Deidre
Follow Thy Heart
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Interests:Many, many things
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Back to Christianity
Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:12 PM
No one can tell you what to think...it's a journey for some, and for others...it is a 'quick' deconversion. Just follow your heart...but when we are under stress, sometimes our decisions one way or the other, can be made without consulting any logic at all. So, it's wise to wait out the stress, before 'deciding' that you are this or that. Always follow the path, but with a clear head and calm emotions. Wherever it leads, I hope you find peace.
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I Feel Like A Christian Again
Started by directionless , Mar 05 2016 08:55 AM
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#41 hockeyfan70
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Regular Member
143 posts
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Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:22 PM
For me, because it's been my whole life - my job, my career, my education, everything - it's very hard to disconnect right away. It does help that my former church are being total jackasses about everything.
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#42 directionless
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1,429 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 24 March 2016 - 09:37 PM
Deidre, on 23 Mar 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:
No one can tell you what to think...it's a journey for some, and for others...it is a 'quick' deconversion. Just follow your heart...but when we are under stress, sometimes our decisions one way or the other, can be made without consulting any logic at all. So, it's wise to wait out the stress, before 'deciding' that you are this or that. Always follow the path, but with a clear head and calm emotions. Wherever it leads, I hope you find peace.
Thanks, @Deidre smile.png For me, it seems to be related to my mood swings. For example, today I woke up feeling terrible. I tried drinking water and snacking on various things. I noticed I had tremors as though I had too much coffee. I could only muse about a distant future where I might feel free to put myself out of my misery. I didn't get any work done at all. I had an appointment with a psychotherapist, and I was nervous about that - even though I have been going there every week for a year. Then suddenly on the drive home from the therapist, I felt very optimistic and I started getting things done. Then I began to have delusional thoughts that my therapist cast a spell or prayed for me after I left, but I haven't taken those thought too seriously. Mostly I feel pretty good now. I'm going to try to wake up at 4 am and ride my exercise bike tomorrow morning for the first time in over a month. smile.png
It is like a roller coaster. My faith in God seems to come and go. When I feel good, I can halfway believe that God exists, but when I feel bad then I can't.
I was watching "Hour of Power" and the young preacher said that everybody has a desire to worship or give thanks ... unless they are depressed. That is very true in my experience.
Edited by directionless, 24 March 2016 - 09:40 PM.
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#43 directionless
Infidel
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1,429 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 24 March 2016 - 09:51 PM
hockeyfan70, on 23 Mar 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:
For me, because it's been my whole life - my job, my career, my education, everything - it's very hard to disconnect right away. It does help that my former church are being total jackasses about everything.
Wow, I didn't know you were that deeply involved. Sometimes I wonder what it might have been like to go to a Christian college and be surrounded by all those righteous people to encourage me to have been more righteous myself. I watch young Christian college students at a televised church service, and they seem like such sincere people. I admire them for having values and trying to live by those values.
I admire Jewish people too. The modern culture has no respect for tradition. Yesterday's treasure is today's trash. Everything changes so fast, and I can't keep up.
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Frustrated And Devastated
Started by BeauCat , Mar 07 2016 09:55 AM
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10 replies to this topic .
#1 BeauCat
Doubter
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45 posts
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Interests:Acrylic painting, vacationing, trying to learn different languages, reading
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Atheist
Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:55 AM
I'm mainly writing this out to help clear my head and also to vent, maybe even just to get through these feelings of pity for myself.
My emotional welfare is busted-up so badly and I'm having the worst time trying to keep myself together. I've never been what I considered a strong person and I feel like I've been given the shittiest of trials- I'm transgender. I have to think it's harder than being gay, because at least your family and friends still think you're you.
I realize if I transition it'll feel like I'm murdering the person my friends and family grew up with. It's understandable, because I'll have a different face, a different body, and a new name. People are so fixated on the physical, it'll be like speaking to a different person...and that person they knew and loved? Gone forever.
I made the stupid decision of telling my brother I am transgender, and he was so disturbed by the entire thing he didn't sleep. He told me he was so upset he told his roommate and his boss. It really wasn't information that I wanted anyone knowing but him, but I guess he felt it was so fucked up he needed to deal with it his own way.
When I told my brother I was drunk. I thought I needed some "Dutch Courage" to get me through it, but I think it made it worse because I lost my "filter". He tried telling me that he loves me, but he thinks transitioning is a sin, it's my cross to bear. I just got angry, something I might not have done if I was sober, I just let all my anger spill out of me like vomit-
"Why do I have to live in absolute misery for some stupid "attah boy" from a god I think is sadistic and his teachings are pure shit?"
"I don't believe in Christianity, I'm an atheist."
"When you say it's a sin and I have to deal with being trans in my body from hell, I am in so much pain I feel like you're completely removed from knowing what it is I'm dealing with."
I don't know if he heard anything I said. I got so frustrated and he was so freaked out that I told him, "Just forget I even told you." I just wanted to take it all back.
Now we have this mega awkward relationship. I feel so fucking depressed over it. I just want it all to end. I feel so goddamn uncomfortable and scared, and rejected. I'm tired of feeling like a horrible freak.
I'm tired of people saying they love me but "don't agree." Don't agree with what? Me getting rid of this horror-fest of pain? Do people not see how fucking miserable I am? You think I'm excited to put myself in a position where I will suffer heavily discrimination from my friends, my family, and society?
I'm so stressed out. I've lost a few friends coming out and now I feel like I'll lose my family. I haven't told my parents but if I start testosterone I know they'll react worse than my brother. I don't even know if I want to start T because I get so stressed out at the thought I'm having nightmares.
I feel like I'm going MENTAL.
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#2 Jeff
Free Thinker
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Location:South Carolina currently... smack in the middle of it
Interests:Real life pretty much...
Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 07 March 2016 - 03:28 PM
I'm sorry you are suffering. You have a really tough situation. But you can make it through.
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#3 TrueScotsman
Thinker
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168 posts
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Interests:Music, singing, hiking, reading, Wife
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:31 PM
Can I just start with saying that you're neither a freak, nor are you mental. You're having a perfectly reasonable response to the insanity of the religion of "love." Where acceptance is presupposed on the basis of you being "accepted" in the first place.
I can't imagine to know what it is like to be transgender, and deal with ignorant small minded people who think they need to offer their limited perspective of YOUR life, which YOU ultimately have to live with. I hope that you can come to feel more comfortable here, and know that you're accepted utterly for who you truly are.
Best wishes!
TS
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#4 amateur
Rationalist
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2,250 posts
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Interests:Spending time with my family, enjoying my little corner of the world.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No, not necessary
Posted 08 March 2016 - 05:00 PM
I'm sorry this all happened in such a rough way to you, between you and your brother.
I agree with TrueScotsman above.
Take care of yourself FIRST.
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#5 Fuego
Free Thinker
♦ Diamond Patron ♦
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Location:Vancouver, WA
Interests:singing, writing, computer geekery, cooking, science experiments, foreign languages, photography, gemstones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :communing with nature
Posted 08 March 2016 - 09:38 PM
Any chance you can get away from them and find a new circle? That can be tough for anyone, but I can't imagine staying around people that are toxic to me. Hope you find a way.
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#6 violetbutterfly
Apostate
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 March 2016 - 05:39 AM
I am so sorry you're going through this with people who are supposed to love you for who you are. I'm laying in bed unable to sleep because I'm fantasizing about all the things I wish I could shout from the rooftops about being atheist so I was nodding along in agreement reading your post. I really hope you seek out a supportive community to help you through this. There ARE people who will love you for being you and for having the courage to improve your life. Please don't give up.
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#7 Geezer
Born Again Non-Believer
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Interests:Religious History, Cosmology, & Theoretical Physics for dummies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 March 2016 - 05:51 PM
A friend of mine, and fellow elder in the church at that time, transitioned from male to female with complete genitalia change. He had a difficult time and I guess lost all of his friends except me. He decided, or was forced, to move to another state and start a new life. His wife divorced him and he is forbidden by his son to even contact his grandchildren. His personal life and social structure were destroyed. I think that is pretty common and probably should be expected, but this was a deeply religious family too, so that has to be taken into consideration.
He married a man a couple of years ago. As far as I know they are a happy couple and his husband knew he used to be a man before he transitioned. So, there is kind of a happy ending to his story.
I wish you the best and truly hope you find happiness and acceptance.
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#8 BeauCat
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Atheist
Posted 12 March 2016 - 04:19 PM
Thank you all for your kind words. I'm sorry I haven't responded, it's one of those things that I can't mentally revisit all the time.
Having friends and people who understand really makes all the difference.
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#9 Citsonga
Fully Human
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Fresh salsa. Mmmm, good!
Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:03 PM
KaySutt, I want to echo the fact that you are NOT a "horrible freak." You are a valuable person who deserves love and compassion. While I can't personally understand what one goes through when feeling trapped in the wrong body, I know it must be awful. It is not your fault, and you should not be made to feel bad for it. Unfortunately, though, a lot of people simply will not understand, so I wish you the best as you deal with it.
I hadn't shared this yet on the board, but my youngest child is FTM transgender. "She" was always a tomboy, so it didn't really surprise me too much when he told me he's "not a girl." Among friends he's taken on a male name and one of his friends is also transgender. My wife and other child (an older daughter) aren't too thrilled with this matter, but I'm hoping they'll come around. He has one cousin who is supportive, which we knew would be the case, but otherwise extended family has not been informed of this yet, so we still don't know how badly they'll react, but I'm sure it won't be easy with several of them. My own father will probably be the worst one to contend with on this matter.
My child went through a lot of struggles before coming to grips with who he really is. There's been a lot of therapy over the past year (primarily for an eating disorder, but it turns out that this transgender issue was a key emotional struggle that led to the eating disorder, and thankfully the eating has improved a lot). I recently made an appointment for next month with a psychologist who specializes in gender identity, and after a handful of sessions she will be able to recommend hormones if she thinks it's right for my child.
I must admit that this has been a little hard for even me. Not ethically, of course. I have no problems with people doing what is right for themselves; their bodies are their own, plain and simple. What bothers me is knowing how some people will view him as messed up, even though that's really not what it is. There are certain family members whom I doubt will ever refer to him with male pronouns or the new name he has chosen. And, of course, I certainly hope that no jerk ever decides to "beat some sense into her." It would pain me to no end for something like that to happen.
I mentioned all that because I thought that you'd be interested in knowing that someone here is dealing with someone in the same boat, and I try to understand as best as I can. You remind me of my own child (though I get the impression that you're probably older), and I wish you the best as you deal with this. I know it may not be of any significant comfort, given that I'm just a poster on a message board, and you still have your own family and acquaintances to deal with, but I really want you to realize that there are people out there who care about people in your predicament and who fully support you.
Good luck as you deal with all of this, and PLEASE don't let others' negativity drag you down. You are an AWESOME person!
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#10 ax345
Doubter
Regular Member
98 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:nature and music, among other things
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I'm open, but no.
Posted 16 March 2016 - 06:46 AM
KaySutt, on 07 Mar 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:
"Why do I have to live in absolute misery for some stupid "attah boy" from a god I think is sadistic and his teachings are pure shit?"
"I don't believe in Christianity, I'm an atheist."
"When you say it's a sin and I have to deal with being trans in my body from hell, I am in so much pain I feel like you're completely removed from knowing what it is I'm dealing with."
I don't know if he heard anything I said. I got so frustrated and he was so freaked out that I told him, "Just forget I even told you." I just wanted to take it all back.
The things you say here are direct and completely honest. You can't regret saying them. You opened up to your brother and it is up to him to deal with it. You need to give him time to deal with it, but you can't go back. I hope you can be at peace with it all yourself, and your loved ones start to support you.
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#11 Wittyusername
Thinker
Regular Member
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Gender:Female
Location:England
Interests:Reading
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Agnostic
Posted 27 March 2016 - 02:48 AM
Beau cat. Quick response typed on a phone. I have a relation who transitioned from f-m. Grew up in a family that was at church whenever the doors were open. His parents have come to be supportive of him. I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics they have performed to allow them to still belive the bible while at the same time loving their child but they are back to playing happy families . I am sure I was an unlikely ally as I had not publicised my deconversion, so you may find support in unexpected quarters.
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Finding Meaning As An Atheist
Started by directionless , Mar 23 2016 07:05 PM
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#1 directionless
Infidel
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Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 23 March 2016 - 07:05 PM
I've been reading "Man's Search for Meaning" by Frankl. Frankl was a Jewish psychiatrist who survived the Nazi concentration camps. He also founded logotherapy which claims that psychological problems often stem from seeing life as meaningless or seeing no way to achieve the desired meaning in life.https://en.wikipedia...i/Viktor_Frankl
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Logotherapy
So here is the quote. Frankl is trying to encourage the fellow concentration camp prisoners, because they are concerned that some of them may give up and die. Most of the encouragement is useless for people who do not believe in spirits or gods. This makes me wonder if the survivors of the concentration camps may have been those with religious faith. (In fairness, the first paragraph might resonate with atheists as well as theists.)
Quote
But I did not only talk of the future and the veil
which was drawn over it. I also mentioned the past; all
its joys, and how its light shone even in the present
darkness. Again I quoted a poet - to avoid sounding
like a preacher myself - who had written, "Was Du
erlebst, kann keine Macht der Welt Dir rauben. "
(What you have experienced, no power on earth can
take from you.) Not only our experiences, but all we
have done, whatever great thoughts we may have had,
and all we have suffered, all this is not lost, though it is
past; we have brought it into being. Having been is
also a kind of being, and perhaps the surest kind.
Then I spoke of the many opportunities of giving life
a meaning. I told my comrades (who lay motionless,
although occasionally a sigh could be heard) that hu-
man life, under any circumstances, never ceases to
have a meaning, and that this infinite meaning of life
includes suffering and dying, privation and death. I
asked the poor creatures who listened to me atten-
tively in the darkness of the hut to face up to the
seriousness of our position. They must not lose hope
but should keep their courage in the certainty that the
hopelessness of our struggle did not detract from its
dignity and its meaning. I said that someone looks
down on each of us in difficult hours - a friend, a wife,
somebody alive or dead, or a God - and he would not
expect us to disappoint him. He would hope to find us
suffering proudly - not miserably - knowing how to die.https://archive.org/...eaning_djvu.txt
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#2 florduh
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Posted 23 March 2016 - 07:30 PM
Perhaps the key to any success with this line of thinking is really just a belief in something bigger than yourself. This doesn't require any imaginary deities because we have life itself, the wonder of nature, family who benefit from your existence, jobs that still need to be done for the greater good, all that stuff.
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#3 Fuego
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Posted 23 March 2016 - 07:58 PM
I concluded after my deconversion that meaning to life is like all of the other meaning we give to things, we create it. As humans, we abstract almost everything and give varying degrees of value or good/bad judgments, and this abstraction allowed us to create things like language and philosophies until we wonder about why we are alive. Most animals probably do not spend time on this, and are more concerned with surviving and mating. We are also animals and we are alive regardless of any over-arching meaning, particularly one given by an invisible being on a throne.
Some cultures value certain aspects of human life, while others value completely different things. What I as an individual choose to pursue and give passion to is what I think shows my "meaning". I love certain people, and devote time and energy to them. I sing and entertain audiences, and that is another aspect of meaning - giving joy. Pan back away from the planet, and do any of our lives matter to the universe? Perhaps in some ways that we don't realize yet, or perhaps we simply exist and all meaning is simply abstract thought trying to make sense out of the world so we can have a better handle on things.
I'm also curious about how much survival depended on "not giving up", versus physical causes. I don't know much about that area of the mind. Certainly, plenty of believing people died in the camps.
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#4 rjn
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Posted 23 March 2016 - 08:22 PM
Thanks for the tip! This Frankl guy sounds like an interesting chap.
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#5 hockeyfan70
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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:11 PM
I need to read that book. I read the Night Trilogy by Elie Wiesel (also a concentration camp survivor) and found it hard to read but necessary.
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#6 Vigile
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 12:10 AM
Why does there have to be an afterlife for life to have meaning to you? This is just religious indoctrination. I used to understand it, but the longer I've been away from religion, the less sense it makes to me. Because life is fleeting, meaning in what we have is so much deeper. If you were to live forever, moments in life would simply be cheap. Your very breath would be cheap.
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#7 midniterider
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 01:27 PM
Is "life's meaning" really a thing we need to discover? Something we need to think about or feel anguish about? Something to strive for?
There seems to be an assumption originating from religious culture that a Christian's life 'has' some uber-important meaning while a non-believer's life has 'no meaning.' I think this is an unchallenged meme, so let's challenge it. It boils down to value. Let's replace the word 'meaning' with 'value.'
Now, a Christian is supposed to do all the things Christian's do and then end up in heaven. A Christian thinks this is valuable, important and gives their life purpose. Why is it valuable to praise Jesus till the end of eternity? Why is it important? Why is it valuable? Cuz someone somewhere said 1) Your life must have a purpose , and 2) Jesus Christ is that purpose.
Really, we don't need to search for meaning. Life is it's own meaning. Sensory experience is amazing. :) If you need to do something, go do it. Think of who you are and what you give to other people by just being a nice person. Put a smile on someone's face. And watch Tim Minchin.
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#8 florduh
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 01:39 PM
Yes, don't buy into religion's definitions and assumptions. We DO NOT need to feel obliged to compare/contrast ourselves only in ways that reference THEIR beliefs.
Theologians claim there is a god, that god imparts meaning to our lives, therefore without their god a life must have no meaning. Bullshit and double bullshit. They create an imaginary deity to give themselves a meaningful existence. I think I can do better with reality, thank you very much.
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#9 directionless
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:17 PM
Fuego, on 23 Mar 2016 - 8:58 PM, said:
I concluded after my deconversion that meaning to life is like all of the other meaning we give to things, we create it.
I have heard that so many times, and it just doesn't make sense to me. I have been depressed off-and-on my entire adult life (30 years). My therapist often remarks that I can turn anything into pessimism and self-criticism. Seeing life as a meaningless, miserable waste of time is instinctual for me. I think the atheists who talk about creating their own meaning probably are happy, well-adjusted people. "Eat, drink, and be merry" is all the meaning that they need. Growing-up, people always told me I was gifted, but I learned better. A lot of times I feel so ashamed of my inadequacies as a human being that I think I should be chased out into the wilderness like the Biblical scape goat - pushed over the cliff to cleanse humanity.
It's not an afterlife I crave. All I want is for God to understand that there are reasons that I have not done as well in life as most people. A few weeks ago I actually believed that everything in my life had a purpose - even my mistakes and failures. That was a nice psychological state, but it seems to be gone.
Fuego, on 23 Mar 2016 - 8:58 PM, said:
I'm also curious about how much survival depended on "not giving up", versus physical causes. I don't know much about that area of the mind. Certainly, plenty of believing people died in the camps.
According to Frankl, physical health was not nearly as important as mental health in survival.
Edited by directionless, 24 March 2016 - 10:18 PM.
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#10 directionless
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:20 PM
rjn, on 23 Mar 2016 - 9:22 PM, said:
Thanks for the tip! This Frankl guy sounds like an interesting chap.
You're welcome. I haven't finished that book yet, but I like Frankl's ideas. I hope I can find a way to put them into practice.
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#11 directionless
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:21 PM
hockeyfan70, on 23 Mar 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:
I need to read that book. I read the Night Trilogy by Elie Wiesel (also a concentration camp survivor) and found it hard to read but necessary.
Thanks, I have not heard of that book. smile.png
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#12 directionless
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:26 PM
Vigile, on 24 Mar 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:
Why does there have to be an afterlife for life to have meaning to you? This is just religious indoctrination. I used to understand it, but the longer I've been away from religion, the less sense it makes to me. Because life is fleeting, meaning in what we have is so much deeper. If you were to live forever, moments in life would simply be cheap. Your very breath would be cheap.
After life doesn't appeal to me, but I want a grand finale. After death I want to see God and then like a moth to the flame I want to feel love just before I cease to exist.
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#13 directionless
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:35 PM
midniterider, on 24 Mar 2016 - 2:27 PM, said:
... And watch Tim Minchin.
Thanks, I enjoyed that video smile.png
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#14 directionless
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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:40 PM
florduh, on 24 Mar 2016 - 2:39 PM, said:
Yes, don't buy into religion's definitions and assumptions. We DO NOT need to feel obliged to compare/contrast ourselves only in ways that reference THEIR beliefs.
Theologians claim there is a god, that god imparts meaning to our lives, therefore without their god a life must have no meaning. Bullshit and double bullshit. They create an imaginary deity to give themselves a meaningful existence. I think I can do better with reality, thank you very much.
I am beginning to think that the proper balance of neurotransmitters gives life meaning wink.png It is like that saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Meaning is a chemical state in our brains.
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#15 Fuego
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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:29 PM
Quote
"I have heard that so many times, and it just doesn't make sense to me. I have been depressed off-and-on my entire adult life (30 years). My therapist often remarks that I can turn anything into pessimism and self-criticism. Seeing life as a meaningless, miserable waste of time is instinctual for me. I think the atheists who talk about creating their own meaning probably are happy, well-adjusted people. "Eat, drink, and be merry" is all the meaning that they need. Growing-up, people always told me I was gifted, but I learned better. A lot of times I feel so ashamed of my inadequacies as a human being that I think I should be chased out into the wilderness like the Biblical scape goat - pushed over the cliff to cleanse humanity.
It's not an afterlife I crave. All I want is for God to understand that there are reasons that I have not done as well in life as most people. A few weeks ago I actually believed that everything in my life had a purpose - even my mistakes and failures. That was a nice psychological state, but it seems to be gone."
Depression interferes with all kinds of things, and occludes reality with its singular view and insists that only it is real. It is an imbalance that forces its own kind of meaning that emotionally overshadows any contenders. I know people who struggle with that and I wish there were an easy answer to fix it. I can only offer the answer I gave above to your original post, but I can't fix how your mind sees it.
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#16 BarbarousBill
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 06:17 AM
I am going to be honest and say part of the reason I'm comfortably non-religious is because I'm so comfortable. I'd imagine that if my circumstances were drastically reduced or altered I may be tempted to find justice in the form of a metaphysical actor, such as a deity, in order to bring about some future state of contentment. It's not something I'm ashamed of, it's just a basic reality. When I have an "oh shit" moment, I typically for a split second hope that a metaphysical being is in control of my external reality to prevent a major clusterfuck. Then the second passes and I go on with what I got to do. It's more of a reaction for me, like an "I'm not sure if this will end well... so if someone was in charge of things that would be nice" reaction, if that makes sense. So I guess for me, the meaning of life is primarily the thrill of adventure. Religion simply doesn't fit much into it except as a topic for discussion and exploration. The impact a divine being has on my everyday reality is largely a reaction to events out of my control and passes with the moment.
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#17 ThereAndBackAgain
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:24 AM
midniterider, on 24 Mar 2016 - 2:27 PM, said:
Really, we don't need to search for meaning. Life is it's own meaning. Sensory experience is amazing. :) If you need to do something, go do it. Think of who you are and what you give to other people by just being a nice person. Put a smile on someone's face. And watch Tim Minchin.
https://www.youtube....h?v=zhT7Tr3_IhQ
Thanks midniterider. Loved the video!
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#18 directionless
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 06:16 PM
Fuego, on 25 Mar 2016 - 9:29 PM, said:
Depression interferes with all kinds of things, and occludes reality with its singular view and insists that only it is real. It is an imbalance that forces its own kind of meaning that emotionally overshadows any contenders. I know people who struggle with that and I wish there were an easy answer to fix it. I can only offer the answer I gave above to your original post, but I can't fix how your mind sees it.
Very true. I cycle in and out of depression at least once a week, so that gives me frequent opportunities to observe the contrast between the two states (depressed / non-depressed). In the depressed state, I cannot remember how it feels to be non-depressed. In the non-depressed state, I can compare the two, and I am always shocked by how much depression was distorting my perceptions. Your description is very accurate.
Edited by directionless, 26 March 2016 - 06:17 PM.
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#19 directionless
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 06:26 PM
BarbarousBill, on 26 Mar 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:
I am going to be honest and say part of the reason I'm comfortably non-religious is because I'm so comfortable. I'd imagine that if my circumstances were drastically reduced or altered I may be tempted to find justice in the form of a metaphysical actor, such as a deity, in order to bring about some future state of contentment. It's not something I'm ashamed of, it's just a basic reality. When I have an "oh shit" moment, I typically for a split second hope that a metaphysical being is in control of my external reality to prevent a major clusterfuck. Then the second passes and I go on with what I got to do. It's more of a reaction for me, like an "I'm not sure if this will end well... so if someone was in charge of things that would be nice" reaction, if that makes sense. So I guess for me, the meaning of life is primarily the thrill of adventure. Religion simply doesn't fit much into it except as a topic for discussion and exploration. The impact a divine being has on my everyday reality is largely a reaction to events out of my control and passes with the moment.
Thanks, @BarbarousBill . Of course comfort is in our brains. So it is our psychological health that gives us contentment and happiness. But physical conditions influence psychological conditions too. Like the concentration camp inmates were not getting enough sleep and nutrition and that had a negative effect on their psychological health probably. I'm not sure what my point is actually wink.png
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#20 Blood
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:26 PM
"Meaning" is completely subjective anyway. Most people are perfectly fine and content finding "meaning" in sports, far more than religion, though many of those same people would never admit to it.
Religion is meaningless. Any "meaning" found in it is completely delusional. Your "personal relationship" with your dog has more meaning than religion.
"Atheism" is simply the lack of a belief in gods. It says nothing about "meaning." It does, however, serve the valuable purpose of encouraging one to find meaning somewhere beside ancient supernaturalism.
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Finding Meaning As An Atheist
Started by directionless , Mar 23 2016 07:05 PM
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#21 directionless
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:41 PM
Blood, on 26 Mar 2016 - 8:26 PM, said:
"Meaning" is completely subjective anyway. Most people are perfectly fine and content finding "meaning" in sports, far more than religion, though many of those same people would never admit to it.
Religion is meaningless. Any "meaning" found in it is completely delusional. Your "personal relationship" with your dog has more meaning than religion.
"Atheism" is simply the lack of a belief in gods. It says nothing about "meaning." It does, however, serve the valuable purpose of encouraging one to find meaning somewhere beside ancient supernaturalism.
Getting back to the OP, we have Frankl who survived a concentration camp. Frankl developed logotherapy which claims that the finding meaning in life is the key to psychological health.
I don't believe Frankl claims that meaning is objective. The problem with atheism is not that it rejects an objective meaning defined by a Creator. The problem with atheism is that it tends to be cynical about meaning. The best most atheists can offer is "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we shall die". That type of meaning isn't good enough when a person faces serious difficulties in life.
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#22 yunea
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Posted 27 March 2016 - 01:08 AM
Hi Directionless, where do you get the "most" in "most atheists say, eat, drink and be merry"? I honestly haven't met any. The atheists I've met who actually are big drinkers and indulge in eating and lots of fun activities also have very difficult jobs, such as some in science.
That being said, I find "satisfying place" may be a better word than "meaning" when it comes to finding your life worth living. I used to think there was so much more to my life if I kept my superstitions and beliefs in that my life had unconditional love and guidance in it. It did give me a lot to think of during my days when I had severe depression and was unable to function, but...that love did not cure me. Meds and choosing something to use my days doing did. Realising I was able to do stuff on my own did, slowly - I was terrified to stand on my own two feet.
With the depression gone now, I find the "bigger" thing to love and serve is the planet, and on a smaller scale, the scientific community. I just have to work to get to a position where I can do it the way I dream of. As an atheist, there is no guessing whether I'm going against a "plan" because only my plan exists.
Btw don't worry about sounding weird. I have pretty bad dissociation, head full of little "alters" who give me several inner voices at a time and worry about old traumas. It turns out I had alters called Jesus and God too. I created them to love me. I think the Jesus one doesn't appear anymore (he was just a really sad little guy in sandals who needed to be set free) but the God one is a pretty ball of light and love who just kind of hangs around. During the worst of my times I felt an invisible being hold me and pet my head, many times... Not unheard of in that state of mind and in dissociation. I also felt "presences" that I thought were signs of significant things happening, and I actually made choices based on that. Some great ones, some horribly destructive.
Just saying you never know who relates to your stories. I'd love to know more about them.
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#23 directionless
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Posted 27 March 2016 - 08:25 AM
yunea, on 27 Mar 2016 - 02:08 AM, said:
Hi Directionless, where do you get the "most" in "most atheists say, eat, drink and be merry"? I honestly haven't met any. The atheists I've met who actually are big drinkers and indulge in eating and lots of fun activities also have very difficult jobs, such as some in science.
That being said, I find "satisfying place" may be a better word than "meaning" when it comes to finding your life worth living. I used to think there was so much more to my life if I kept my superstitions and beliefs in that my life had unconditional love and guidance in it. It did give me a lot to think of during my days when I had severe depression and was unable to function, but...that love did not cure me. Meds and choosing something to use my days doing did. Realising I was able to do stuff on my own did, slowly - I was terrified to stand on my own two feet.
With the depression gone now, I find the "bigger" thing to love and serve is the planet, and on a smaller scale, the scientific community. I just have to work to get to a position where I can do it the way I dream of. As an atheist, there is no guessing whether I'm going against a "plan" because only my plan exists.
Btw don't worry about sounding weird. I have pretty bad dissociation, head full of little "alters" who give me several inner voices at a time and worry about old traumas. It turns out I had alters called Jesus and God too. I created them to love me. I think the Jesus one doesn't appear anymore (he was just a really sad little guy in sandals who needed to be set free) but the God one is a pretty ball of light and love who just kind of hangs around. During the worst of my times I felt an invisible being hold me and pet my head, many times... Not unheard of in that state of mind and in dissociation. I also felt "presences" that I thought were signs of significant things happening, and I actually made choices based on that. Some great ones, some horribly destructive.
Just saying you never know who relates to your stories. I'd love to know more about them.
The concentration camp is an extreme case. According Frankl a person would die very quickly after becoming discouraged, because the immune system is influenced by mental state. Nobody had much hope of surviving the concentration camp. Normally a depressed person must have willpower to kill himself or herself, but in a concentration camp it was different.
However, Frankl said that suffering is relative. Most people don't suffer physically like the concentration camp inmates, but people can suffer psychologically, and finding meaning in life is important for everybody. (I'm paraphrasing from memory, so hopefully that is correct.)
The "most atheists" that I described as "eat, drink, and be merry" are the people I meet on forums. In fairness, instead of saying "most atheists" I could say "most people". Part of this is due to prosperity of the modern world.
It is interesting that you have those "alters". Some of the things I have seen in dreams are so beautiful. I remember passing out in a wedding and it was like looking up from the inside of a tower made of stained glass going to heaven, and I could hear wind chimes loudly ringing. Apparently when a person passes out, the muscles relax in the ear and cause a ringing sound. It was a very beautiful experience, and I tried to recreate it a few times unsuccessfully. I also had a very beautiful dream a few years ago where it seemed that God and/or Jesus were giving me some guidance and encouragement. I was happy for a week after that dream. Some of the other stuff is just weird and hard to explain. LOL ;)
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A Bit Of A Rant
Started by warlocktheadam , Mar 14 2016 12:17 AM
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#1 warlocktheadam
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Posted 14 March 2016 - 12:17 AM
Hello everyone,
A little about myself:
I'm a post-college male in my early twenties. I've dealt with medical issues, horrible extended (Christian) family members, and severe social anxiety most of my life. All three issues have decreased significantly in recent years, but they are still there. I am also severely embarrassed with my body, and have been since before I was a teen, to the point that I don't like leaving home except for work (I am a little overweight, not obese, and have many stretch marks from growing late).
I was raised in a Pentecostal Christian home. I still live at home, but I am employed and about to get my own car, giving me more independence. My parents aren't Bible-thumpers, and they are far less legalistic or "weird" than most southern Christians I have met. They have both struggled with faith in past years, but are still staunchly Christian. We love each other deeply, despite some extremely serious conflicts over the years.
I have openly struggled with my faith since I was a teenager. I have "backslidden" three times now. Once, as a teen. Then again in my later years of college; long story short, my heart was totally shattered along with my faith, and I went into a suicidal depression for about a year. I remember seriously considering taking my own life as soon as I had attended my brother's wedding. This was about two years ago now. I still seriously struggle with God and the meaning of life, sometimes feeling hopeless, but now I am not suicidal.
Last July I came back to the faith. I have witnessed seeming miracles that can hardly be explained by chance, and I believe someone created this amazingly tuned universe. But recently I've backslidden for the third time. The Christian dogma I grew up with feels more ridiculous the older I get. The Bible seems more and more like a nice fairy tale that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. At the same time, I keep coming back to it, then leaving disgusted months or years later.
Life isn't black and white, and Christianity's black and white rules just don't fit with it. My biggest issue is sex. Christians like to treat sex as the world's great sin that causes everyone's problems, except when Christian mommies and daddys need to make a baby like Jesus wants, then it's okay for a few minutes. But God forbid sex between two homosexuals that want to love each other physically, or a boyfriend and girlfriend at are consenting adults. That's evil!
Why the hell would God make young men like myself have an insane sex drive and then forbid us from acting on it until we have a paper certificate that magically makes any sexual activity okay with one person? I've "struggled" with porn for about ten years, sometimes barely using it for months and then like recently using it multiple times a week, especially when my sadness and loneliness hits its peak; afterword I feel gross and dirty. I keep apologizing to God, then going back to porn the next day. I desire companionship so badly--not just sex, but someone to wake up with and spend time with.
I'm single, a virgin (at least physically, ha-ha), and have never even managed to date or kiss. Is porn four times a week normal for a single guy? I feel like I am so gross for using porn that any girl who found out wouldn't even want to look at me. I feel guilty for wanting sex, I feel guilty for wanting to turn my back on Christianity. Worse, my mother writes Christian material on marriage, and I disagree with it.
Without Christianity my worldview falls apart, but I can't seem to justify following it anymore; there are too many problems. I have no friends to lose by deconverting, other than my family (possibly; I don't think they'd disown me, but they wouldn't be happy at all). I'm not a thrill seeker and I have never fit in with people my age that do foolhardy stuff (i.e. speeding drunk and getting in a car crash graduation night). I have had only three good friends in my life, all gone now. I don't know how to make non-Christian friends that still will act with personal restraint, but I can't stand being around Christians anymore--I don't fit in.
I don't want to lose my family. Has anyone else experienced this? How do you get free when your family keeps pushing Christian spirituality at you and you live at home? How do you deal with guilt about sex and wanting it after being told 95% of sex is sinful? How do you make new friends outside of church, maybe even future romantic partners?
Sorry for the long post; it's good to get this off my chest.
- warlocktheadam
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#2 yunea
Pink Creature
Regular Member
902 posts
Gender:Female
Location:EU
Interests:Maths, knitting, really really good coffee, sleep.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 14 March 2016 - 01:13 AM
Welcome to the forum.
Many of us understand the very things you're going through, you don't have to be embarrassed about anything you said.
About the porn - this is coming from a 31 yr old woman - I don't think four times a week is bad for a lonely guy in his twenties. I'd be worried if it was four times a day. I always thought it is much better to watch porn than have as much sex with strangers/hookers, as long as it's not illegal porn that's hurting people.
One thing I do have to mention though - You'd be surprised by how imperfect people's bodies are. Many (guys and girls) have stretch marks, cellulite, weird scars and moles, a bit of fat in places we don't like, weird body hair, asymmetric chest. Porn is made by people who have those things airbrushed off, fixed in surgery, etc.
What are you good at? Usually a way to make friends is when doing something you love, because if someone else pays attention to it and digs it, there's already one thing in common. Learning new skills at folk university type courses can help with that a great deal too. I met my first ever bf at one.
We're also here for you anytime you need to vent or just talk. I know it's not the same as IRL friends but maybe it'll help you feel a bit less lonely.
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#3 ax345
Doubter
Regular Member
98 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:nature and music, among other things
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I'm open, but no.
Posted 14 March 2016 - 06:38 AM
Thanks for sharing. I share the belief that is is normal to use porn and your own fantasy to masturbate while you have no partner. But just keep this in mind - in the future, when you DO have a sexual partner, especially if the relationship is loving and serious, you might find that you need to curtail the porn and masturbation. I was almost unable to orgasm during real sex while I was still regularly masturbating. For me, porn and masturbation preceded my first sexual experience by a good ten years. Once I curbed the porn and wanking, only then I found my groove for the real thing, and that made the relationship much stronger. Your mileage may vary, as they say - take it or leave it.
As for your worldview...I can relate to the feeling (well, we've all experienced it) that there must be some greater meaning, and a greater being who created us. That said, the longer I have been away from Christianity, the more at peace I have become with the notion that it may all be meaningless, at least as far as we humans assign meaning. If my awareness can be eternally snuffed out because something as mundane as a bus hitting me, then so be it - I can't fight against that reality. I can only do my best to live the way my conscience leads. And that is no different than it was when I was Christian - except that I now follow the rules as my conscience dictates, not as the church does. I can still listen to what the church has to say, along with all the other authorities in the world, but I freely make my own decisions.
You deserve some credit for being mature enough to have this struggle now at your young age. I was devout in my twenties, struggled during my thirties, and have been free of it in my forties.
Edited by ax345, 14 March 2016 - 06:47 AM.
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#4 qadeshet
Apostate
Regular Member
840 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Dallas
Interests:Science Fiction, Chess, helping others free themselves fron Christianity
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not Probable
Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:24 AM
warlocktheadam, on 14 Mar 2016 - 01:17 AM, said:
Without Christianity my worldview falls apart, but I can't seem to justify following it anymore; there are too many problems.
The Religious worldview is a kind of delusion. Why not adopt a worldview based on actual reality? Science is our best tool for determining what is real.
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#5 rjn
Apostate
Regular Member
913 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Hyperborea
Interests:Nature, philosophy, history, linguistics, mythology, science, music, literature.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nah. A spiritual world view at best.
Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:08 AM
I'd say, cut down on the porn. Not because of any prudish morality or guilt, but rather because it is largely a waste of time, and I'm certain exaggerated consumption of it does affect our sexual attitudes to a degree.
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#6 Burny
Strong Minded
Regular Member
330 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Canada
Interests:Climbing, Photography, Running, Hiking, Philosophy, Science
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Never Again
Posted 14 March 2016 - 09:52 AM
Welcome to ex-c. I wouldn't worry about the porn too much. I used to be afraid that I would get "addicted to it", since my elders and pastors all told me that porn is a evil pit of desire that would eventually lead to me being a pedophile or worse! Like anything that feels good, porn can be addictive and unhealthy but no less so than coffee, cigarettes or alcohol.
Don't be too desperate for a sexual relationship - just try to make good friends and see where it leads. Use porn and masturbation to make yourself less "horny", as no partner wants a desperate person around all the time! :) I would first concentrate on what to do about xtianity before you end up married to a fundy and then deconverting. That is a mess you don't want!
When my wife and I deconverted after 37 years in the faith, one of the best things was how honest I could be about porn and now we have a very open and honest sex life - far more open and honest than we ever did as xtians! Weird huh?
Things they don't tell you as an xtian... Lol.
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#7 warlocktheadam
Curious
New Member
4 posts
Gender:Male
Location:U.S.
Interests:Writing, video games, movies, kickboxing, kitties
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Yes. Somebody made the universe we live in.
Posted 14 March 2016 - 10:20 AM
Thanks for the replies and kindness, everyone. I really appreciate it--this is hard when you have no one to talk to.
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What are you good at? Usually a way to make friends is when doing something you love, because if someone else pays attention to it and digs it, there's already one thing in common. Learning new skills at folk university type courses can help with that a great deal too. I met my first ever bf at one.
I enjoy martial arts (got a black belt in my late teens). I've started attending a small Krav Maga class the last two weeks. I am also considering joining a writing group if I can find one that really critiques each others work and whatnot, not just showing up to say how good we all are (I know I'm not, but I really enjoy writing regardless). Still looking into that, though.
Other than that, I don't know. I've spent most of my life becoming a polymath with different video game types, but that isn't too helpful with making friends, unfortunately. I've asked my parents about this in the past and the answer is always something to do with church groups, so that hasn't really helped me think of ideas.
Quote
I would first concentrate on what to do about xtianity before you end up married to a fundy and then deconverting. That is a mess you don't want!
Indeed, that's what I don't want! I don't even know if I want to get married, at least not for a long while. Marriage can be a wonderful thing, my parents are honestly proof of that, but I'm tired of being told it is the only good way to live my life.
Again, thanks for the replies.
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#8 sdelsolray
I'm Not That Important
Regular Member
2,392 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Music, science, critical thinking, history, gardening, film noir movies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None of the above
Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:37 PM
Thanks for your story. You have experienced, and currently have, several unresolved issues, mostly dealing with religion and interpersonal relationships.
Let's leave all that aside for the moment. Do you have any hobbies, non-religious interests and/or things you like to do when you are alone?
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#9 Fuego
Free Thinker
♦ Diamond Patron ♦
1,857 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Vancouver, WA
Interests:singing, writing, computer geekery, cooking, science experiments, foreign languages, photography, gemstones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :communing with nature
Posted 14 March 2016 - 09:10 PM
I can only echo the others. Do what you enjoy and find social things to interact with real women/girls. For me that was dancing lessons, which was a stretch for my comfort zone. But it was wonderful. By the way, Bruce Lee was the 1958 cha-cha dance champion. There are all kinds of different dance styles, so find some you like and pursue it for a year and see what happens. Ballroom dance is a collection of styles like swing, cha-cha, waltz, etc. All great things to know when wooing someone. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it.
Another thing that I do is sing in jazz clubs and at jams. It gets me out around lots of cute women and they like my voice. Try doing some things outside your comfort zone that may get you around the kind of ladies you like. Church actually got me going a bit in that area, but with so many emotional hangups that I was still very nervous around women. Once I got out of church and began getting up on stage (a huge effort for a used-to-be wallflower) I began loosening up a lot.
The more you can be around real females, the less "other" they will seem and much more approachable on a normal level. Way too many guys never learn how to become attractive to a woman, or how to draw them into simple social interactions. Basics are: good hygiene, dress nicely (or at least nicely for the kind of female you want to attract), learn to converse and ask polite questions, find some that you like and see where it goes. I used to throw my heart in and fantasize heavily, which invariably meant I'd be emotionally crushed when she rejected me. The more I respected myself and took things slowly and didn't spend time lying to myself with fantasies, I got a lot further.
Hope that helps.
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#10 ThereAndBackAgain
Apostate
Regular Member
39 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Wild Wonderful WV
Interests:Life, the Universe and Everything
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Good beer. The joy of living.
Posted 17 March 2016 - 05:26 AM
Hi warlocktheadam!
I think you've been given some good advice by the others here. I agree with the consensus on porn and masturbation: no reason to feel guilty, just limit it.
I'm sure that living with your parents helps you make ends meet, but I would encourage you to get your own place as soon as you can afford it. Being more independent will boost your confidence. If there's one thing that's attractive to ladies it's a confident guy. Another thing that will help you grow in confidence is taking good care of your body, not just your brain. Not just the obvious personal hygiene, but working out and being in good shape. You could pick up some free weights or join a place like Planet Fitness that is very affordable. I don't know the biology, but strength training releases some incredible mood-boosting shit into your bloodstream. You don't have to become a heavy-duty lifter unless you want to, but you will start to feel better right away and will start to see results in the mirror too. A gym can also be a good place to meet people! Or start taking a daily jog in the park - again it's good for you and you never know who you might meet.
So I think building your independence and confidence is a good way to feel less dependent on religion. You obviously already see that so much of it makes no sense, and it's good that you're questioning at a young age. Many of us here are only sorry that we didn't question earlier, or have the confidence to walk away from religion and superstition. If you haven't already read some books on the subject, we'd be happy to recommend some...
Well I wish you all the best my friend. Keep in touch and let us know how you're doing. Life stretches out ahead of you and it is likely to be a good and joyful life if you do your own thinking and make it YOUR life and don't try to make it fit what somebody else thinks it should be, or what some religious dogma demands.
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#11 ax345
Doubter
Regular Member
98 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:nature and music, among other things
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I'm open, but no.
Posted 17 March 2016 - 06:19 AM
Well said, ThereAndBackAgain!
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#12 amateur
Rationalist
Regular Member
2,250 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Pennsylvania, United States
Interests:Spending time with my family, enjoying my little corner of the world.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No, not necessary
Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:27 AM
warlocktheadam, on 14 Mar 2016 - 01:17 AM, said:
Life isn't black and white, and Christianity's black and white rules just don't fit with it. My biggest issue is sex.
What you said there sums up everything to me about xianity. According to the religion, everything is black/white, right/wrong, of god/not of god. But life is absolutely not that way. Not with sexuality, not with anything.
If a person happens to be straight, and finds a good person to marry, and they are lucky enough to stay together for their whole lives, then that fits the great xian mold. But for the rest of us, we're thrown out as sinners. Gay, divorced, transgendered, victims of spousal abuse, asexual, hermaphrodite, people who simply enjoy having sex with different partners in safe ways, people who enjoy porn in the privacy of their own homes, horny and unable to find a partner to work it out with -- we have all somehow "chosen" to reject what god wants of us. I've enjoyed my life and I've enjoyed my sexuality, and I've lived through unrelieved horny times, and I have no issue with most porn, and if the church doesn't (or in my case, didn't, as I won't ever attend again) approve of what I've done, it makes no difference to me. My life did not follow the xian guidelines of marrying one person, sex with just that person, forever. Huge number of people's lives don't follow those guidelines! In no way do I feel immoral or guilty for anything I've done.
Now, as far as you wanting to make changes in your life, that's a good thing. Changing your life, making your life work better for you, finding out what YOU truly want to do and finding ways to do it, that's all great! Clinging to old ways of doing things because of guilt, or only to please your parents or church, are not ways to live sanely for long.
There's no need to be a thrill-seeker or to do anything that you truly don't want to do (I, too, have no interest in thrill seeking or doing anything that I deem dangerous). Meeting new people isn't always easy, but really, there are people everywhere. Do you go to school and/or have a job? Then you know people and can probably find someone you can get along with. Do you have neighbors? Even in the church, can you find someone else that's a questioner?
Something to think about, and maybe scare you into doing something to make some friends and some good changes in your life NOW: I can think of several people that I grew up with. We are now all between the ages of 52 and 60, and a couple of us have remained marginal friends over the decades and I'm somewhat aware of all their circumstances. There are four I can think of that had always wanted to be married and have a family and make their church and family happy with them (3 women and 1 man), but none of them has ever done it. Three of them still live very close to their parental home, and have spent decades denying their own interests in sexuality in order to try to conform to what they grew up with expected by their church and families (they all have sexuality but feel guilty either over having very occasional sex or enjoying some porn-- all of which they still hide, even at their ages), and they ALL still complain about their family trying to run their lives (think about their ages! This is insane!). The fourth woman moved away from home, finally, by her mid-30's, but has spent the next decades trying to be the exact opposite of her church and family simply for the sake of being the opposite, which has also not worked out for her at all. So RIGHT NOW, start thinking about what you want, good healthy things that would make YOU happy, not just rejecting the values from your church and family and thinking that the exact opposite would work better (it won't; you'd still be living with your family/church in your head, not your own desires, which is what my fourth friend has been doing and she's a mess). It's up to you to decide what's right and wrong for you. Relax about the porn issue. Sex is good and normal (the church likes to use it as a control because it's a great control since almost everybody has an incredibly strong sex drive from puberty on, and the church can even use it as a thought crime and privacy crime since they can attempt to make you feel guilty just by masturbating with or without porn). Focus on making a friend or two outside of religion that you can enjoy movies with or kickbox together. Think about who you want to be and where you want to be in life. Take small steps to make those things happen. Even if you're having trouble making friends, still do what interests you and enjoy.
Please do this before you're between the ages of 52 and 60 and still living in a stunted way near your family home and still feeling guilty over porn or occasional sex or questioning your religion. Your job in life is NOT just to make your church and parents happy. My kids are now grown, and they are their own people. In most ways I'm super proud of them and their choices, and sometimes I just scratch my head over some of their choices, but you know what? That doesn't matter; my opinion of their choices DOES NOT MATTER now that they are grown. What matters is that my kids are now young adults and are making their OWN choices, and of that I am very proud. My marginal friends that are now 52-60? Their remaining parents are now between the ages of 84 and 92 and they are STILL trying to make those parents happy!!!!! It will not happen; they will never make those parents happy. And by the way, none of those parents are fundy at all, they all go to mainstream churches that are pretty liberal. Somehow, those adult children scared themselves into thinking they had to conform to their parents' and churches' wishes, but I was raised in one of those same churches, and it wasn't like that. Those adult children might have had some control issues with their parents when they were young, and their parents did use guilt tactics to keep their kids "good" when they were young and we were growing up, but none of them ever grew out of that, and at their ages it has been a useless waste of their lives.
Good luck! Get out now! I do wish you all the best.
Edited by amateur, 17 March 2016 - 11:30 AM.
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#13 warlocktheadam
Curious
New Member
4 posts
Gender:Male
Location:U.S.
Interests:Writing, video games, movies, kickboxing, kitties
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Yes. Somebody made the universe we live in.
Posted 23 March 2016 - 11:14 PM
Hello again all.
Thought I'd reply to some great posts and give an update.
Quote
I'm sure that living with your parents helps you make ends meet, but I would encourage you to get your own place as soon as you can afford it. Being more independent will boost your confidence. If there's one thing that's attractive to ladies it's a confident guy.
I agree with this assessment. For a very long time, I was so anxious and socially inept that I couldn't fathom living on my own. By the time I was in college, I was dealing with such terrible physical and emotional pain from a multitude of different issues that I was just getting through each week. Now that I have recovered from those issues and have a real job, I am beginning to desire my own place and life.
But at the same time, I want to be careful not to be rash and jump headlong out of my parents' house. I barely make $200 a week (it's the only job I've been able to get outside seasonal UPS work). I'll have school bills coming up, as well as a car payment and insurance soon. They have already told me they will help me with both when they can. If I lived on my own, I would also have utilities, rent, cat food, medical bills--the fees are frightening. I think leaving home in the near future would be a death wish for my financial well being. In addition, we are moving in about a month. I think it would be pretty rude if not disrespectful to voice my (strong) opinion on where and how I would like to live, and then when we are about to finally switch residences, move out. I'd feel like sort of a dick, unless they turn into religious fanatics or I loathe every second of my life there.
That being said, I am pursuing a job in air traffic control. For any that don't know, that involves working via radio and radar with aircraft. It pays very well, and I have a college degree in the field that I haven't yet been able to use. But the application process is multi-stepped and (from what I know) arduous. It is a government job, after all.
But something about it that may be good for me is the extra schooling required. If I am accepted into the program (the bid should open this week or the next), I will be required to travel to Oklahoma City and attend a semester of government-paid schooling at an FAA training facility. This would probably happen by the end of the year, fall I would guess. I would obviously be living on my own for this short period of time, which might be a good life experience. That all hinges on if I am accepted or not, however.
Quote
Even if you're having trouble making friends, still do what interests you and enjoy.
This is what I am really trying to do. As I said, I am not severely overweight, but almost all of my fat is on my stomach, making for a poor figure. I also have virtually no dating, relationship, or sexual experience outside of what I spoke about in my original post. All of that combined makes me feel extremely intimidated by the idea of showing interest in any girl, especially since I am attracted to fit young women my age. Who would want me? :(
I know I probably look better than I think I do, but this is a barrier I haven't yet been able to overcome. I've seen some (as Michael Pena would say) "crazy stupid fine" girls at the gym (I rarely go, feeling like a loser around the jocks), and could not get the guts to talk to them; the ladies looked great, and I am far from a football player physique.
So I am just trying to do things I enjoy. Writing, walking, spending time with my little sister (she's cool), watching movies. But I am having difficulty finding people to do these things with.
Now for the update.
Not much has changed, except I think I've mentally let go of religion and a burden has lifted from me. It's been replaced by another, however. I don't know how or when to tell my parents I don't believe as they do anymore. As I said above, they do a lot for me. I really do love them, I just don't want to be a part of their religion anymore. And I really don't want to come across as ungrateful or disrespectful. Worse, as I said I've backslidden three times. This time, I really mean to escape from Christianity. I don't know how they will react if I formally renounce Christianity (xianity?) instead of just voicing serious doubts like before.
As a side note, I was working last week when my boss came in with two guests/customers/somethings. I work for a small company of three other people, all of whom are Christians except me, to the best of my knowledge. They like me. My boss introduced me to these two people, calling me a "good Christian man." I got the job through my brother; no other company would hire me except UPS for Christmas. I've never mentioned any of my spiritual views to my boss; I think he just assumes I am a Christian since he works with my brother, who is a youth pastor.
Needless to say, I worked not to cringe at his comment.
Have any of you been in a similar situation? I don't know the man on a very personal level. He is nice, and kind to me. But now I know he thinks I am religious like my brother. I am not sure if he would treat me differently if he found out I am not. If he is a nut and fires me for it, I'd have no income. But my family wants to go to the same church as my boss, and he already works with my brother! I fear news of my deconversion might spread quickly, and before long my immediate family, my brother, his wife, and my boss/colleagues at work would know. That scares me; I don't think I am ready to be either alienated or constantly bombarded by please to come back into the fold. Thanks, Christianity!
Support is sincerely appreciated. I can't tell you how much it helps to have people to talk to. I suspect many of you know the feeling.
Best to all.
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How To Not Become An "angry Atheist"?
Started by trek4fr , Mar 19 2016 08:29 AM
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8 replies to this topic .
#1 trek4fr
Questioner
New Member
10 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Interests:Religion, science fiction, music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Possibly creator
Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:29 AM
One of the things I hated back when I was a Christian was "angry Christians." I'm sure you know what I mean, the kind of Christian who gets up in your face, his leather Bible flapping its pages at you, his voice telling you that if you don't accept Jesus, you are going to burn in hell. I was never THAT kind of Christian. I never saw Jesus using that kind of technique in the gospels. He seemed to be more "seeker-sensitive" so I tended to take that approach also.
Now, I'll be the first to say that sometimes Christianity needs to be opposed with vigor, especially when it threatens our constitutional or human rights. Nevertheless, in my deconversion I don't want to become an "Angry Atheist" who gets in people's faces and tells them how stupid they are to believe all this stuff (even if I do think that to myself).
So have you gone through this phase?
How did you deal with the anger that deconversion can sometimes bring?
Did you come out the other side with a more balanced view or are you still angry?
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#2 Shinzon
Strong Minded
Regular Member
208 posts
Gender:Male
Location:.
Interests:Doctor who, good books, music and religion
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:21 AM
I think we all hit a angry phase in religion if it either has effected us strongly or we believed in it with some strength. That is just my crank view on the subject. My way of getting over it was just allowing myself to be angry till it got boring, now its amusing.
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#3 Vigile
Fully Human
★ Gold Patron ★
27,098 posts
Gender:Male
Location:St Petersburg, Russia
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nebbiolo, devushki and Kerouac.
Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:37 AM
A lot of people need to go through an angry phase. It passes with time.
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#4 Lilith666
Rationalist
Regular Member
2,243 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Hell, maybe.
Interests:I have two main hobbies: I love music and love to read. I also like art galleries, drama, and playing with my iPod. Of course, theology and philosophy are big ones, since I'm on here.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Truth and peace.
Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:45 AM
I did go through a period in which I was extremely pissed-off at Christians and their religion, because so much of what I had thought was true actually wasn't. But that faded as I came to terms with non-belief and the lingering fear of hell also disappeared. Spending time away from that environment as I'm in college also has helped.
I think the idea of the "angry atheist" has been greatly exaggerated, particularly by Christians who feel defensive against the growing secularism in American society. I like to watch atheist YouTubers and they don't seem very in-your-face, even the ones who project a caustic image. They get mad about people trying to force religion on other people, like opposing marriage rights etc., and point out the nonsense that religion mostly is. So they do get angry sometimes when it's warranted. But the so-called Angry Atheist a la God's Not Dead is mostly a caricature of non-religious people by Christians trying to paint themselves as the good guys.
Also, welcome to Ex-C :)
Edited by Lilith666, 19 March 2016 - 10:46 AM.
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#5 hockeyfan70
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Regular Member
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Interests:Hockey, fighting human trafficking, family.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :unsure at this time
Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:59 AM
There's certainly a reason to be angry, especially at all the crap that religion does in the name of a god. In Christianland, the opposite was called "righteous anger" - getting angry at things like the Holocaust, the Khmer Rouge, etc. A justified anger if you will. I think it's ok to be angry, just don't be rude about it. You can get your point across better usually when you calmly show how screwed up someone's' belief is, rather than angrily tell them they're an idiot.
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#6 Geezer
Born Again Non-Believer
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Location:Deep South in the buckle of the bible belt
Interests:Religious History, Cosmology, & Theoretical Physics for dummies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:11 PM
Laughing at bible thumpers, while they are preaching up a storm, has proven to be therapeutic for me and fun too. Shaking your head in disbelief can be added to emphasize how stupid you think they are. They tend to go berserk when you do that, and that adds to the fun.
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#7 Deidre
Follow Thy Heart
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2,549 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Back to Christianity
Posted 20 March 2016 - 09:41 PM
When I as an atheist, I went through that phase. But, I didn't want to be a ''preachy'' atheist like Dawkins. lol That said, I've returned to the faith, and I'm still not preachy. lol You may go through a lot of phases upon leaving Christianity. I know that I did. Good luck on your journey. :)
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#8 Jeff
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Location:South Carolina currently... smack in the middle of it
Interests:Real life pretty much...
Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 21 March 2016 - 05:13 AM
Pretty damn angry about all the wasted years at first but life is so much better now I've kinda mellowed and accepted the whole experience and just remember the relatively few good parts from back then.
Onward with fewer looks back.
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#9 Burny
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Interests:Climbing, Photography, Running, Hiking, Philosophy, Science
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Never Again
Posted 21 March 2016 - 01:01 PM
Losing religion is like dealing with death. Anger is a phase we all went through.
I have to ask what was so "non angry" about Jesus calling people names and inventing the idea of Hell as a place he'd gladly send anyone who challenged him? To suffer eternally.
I think Jesus was one of the least tolerant and least loving people in history.
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I'm Still Not Cultured Enough.
Started by InvidiaLuxe , Mar 07 2016 09:21 AM
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14 replies to this topic .
#1 InvidiaLuxe
pagan/wiccan/eclectic/agnostic
Regular Member
253 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Wherever I go.
Interests:Ever-changing
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :💜
Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:21 AM
A while back, I made a post about missing out on what the world has to offer because of my religious upbringing. There are still things that I don't care to know about, but I feel forced to just tune into them because... everyone else knows?
4chan
WoW
other rpg steam games
games in general
Star Wars
Harry Potter
the Urban dictionary
New top songs on the radio
Celebrities
The Oscars
new movies
etc.
I'm just not into any of this. And I don't know why. I'm not really interested in much because I still have this lingering feeling that since everything is temporary, everything is uninteresting. It's a weird idea. Plus there is the christian teaching that takes the verse "Do not love the world or anything of the world" to the point where you can't be involved in anything or learn anything new.
I could use some feedback about this.
Thanks.
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#2 florduh
Not Right in the Head
Super Moderator
17,357 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :my doG
Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:36 AM
Pop culture is pretty boring and inherently meaningless to anyone with a brain, and not because they are 'temporary' diversions and not about some god. You're not missing anything other than references people may use at water cooler conversations. People say, "Can you believe who won Best Supporting Actor?" and I'm kind of glad I don't know or care.
Watch a few hundred hours of dumb TV shows and commercials and you'll be caught up!
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#3 RogueScholar
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☆ Silver Patron ☆
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Interests:Health Care, Science, Education, Outdoors
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:44 AM
I don't think there's any code that says you have to love any of that stuff. Frankly, nothing on that list is all that interesting to me either. Most of my interests outside of work revolve around being in the gym or the out of doors. I'm not sure, but sometimes I feel as though there is some unwritten "geek" or "nerd" credential that certain groups of folks have to hold. Again, I do not find much interest any much of the stuff you listed. Are you engaged in activities you enjoy and are you finding passions and interests and engaging in said concepts? If so, you should be just fine. Not everyone will enjoy the same interests. If the shoe doesn't fit, no need to wear it.
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#4 InvidiaLuxe
pagan/wiccan/eclectic/agnostic
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253 posts
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Location:Wherever I go.
Interests:Ever-changing
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :💜
Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:16 AM
Thanks for the replies.
When I was growing up, my peers (not friends) in church quizzed me on things they were interested in, like song artists. I didn't know what they were talking about, so I failed their litmus tests for friendship. I mean, they would literally approach me and ask, "Do you know who Kanye West is?" I didn't know then, but I know now. And they'd give me a side look and walk away. I lost friendships over this shit.
I'm 33, and still to this day, I meet people who are wrapped up in one segment of one subculture, and act like I am totally missing out when I can't relate.
I think this is what I don't understand.
I am interested in conspiracy newscasters, paranormal explorations, and channeled messages. I take the channeled messages with a grain of salt because for all I know, the people could be acting. I still like to watch though.
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#5 Vigile
Fully Human
★ Gold Patron ★
27,098 posts
Gender:Male
Location:St Petersburg, Russia
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nebbiolo, devushki and Kerouac.
Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:51 AM
florduh, on 07 Mar 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:
Pop culture is pretty boring and inherently meaningless to anyone with a brain, and not because they are 'temporary' diversions and not about some god. You're not missing anything other than references people may use at water cooler conversations. People say, "Can you believe who won Best Supporting Actor?" and I'm kind of glad I don't know or care.
Watch a few hundred hours of dumb TV shows and commercials and you'll be caught up!
Yeah, what he said. When I read the heading, I thought you meant you were worried you didn't know which salad fork to use or whether or not to hold out your pinkie when holding a can of Bud.
I guess by your definition I'm not very cultured either.
Sounds to me like you're just an introvert. Don't let the extroverts get you down. :)
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#6 rjn
Apostate
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913 posts
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Location:Hyperborea
Interests:Nature, philosophy, history, linguistics, mythology, science, music, literature.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nah. A spiritual world view at best.
Posted 07 March 2016 - 02:47 PM
Most popular culture is crap so you're not really missing out. Find something that does interest you and screw the rest. Celebrities have become our new gods, and shopping malls our temples. Praise Mammon.
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#7 ScholarRedrickStahl
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Gender:Male
Interests:Hope of expanding the greatness of Atheism.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 08 March 2016 - 01:56 PM
InvidiaLuxe, on 07 Mar 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:
A while back, I made a post about missing out on what the world has to offer because of my religious upbringing. There are still things that I don't care to know about, but I feel forced to just tune into them because... everyone else knows?
4chan
WoW
other rpg steam games
games in general
Star Wars
Harry Potter
the Urban dictionary
New top songs on the radio
Celebrities
The Oscars
new movies
etc.
I'm just not into any of this. And I don't know why. I'm not really interested in much because I still have this lingering feeling that since everything is temporary, everything is uninteresting. It's a weird idea. Plus there is the christian teaching that takes the verse "Do not love the world or anything of the world" to the point where you can't be involved in anything or learn anything new.
I could use some feedback about this.
Thanks.
Hello Fellow Comrade, My Name Is Scholar Redrick Stahl. You don't need to worry yourself about what other people find interesting, the number one thing you need to think about is what you find interesting, what makes you happy. I used to be a Christian but now, I am a Helghanist. I will describe what it is if you are interested.
So once you find yourself, your true self then you will be truly happy and truly at peace.
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#8 Blindsighted
Doubter
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65 posts
Gender:Female
Location:California
Interests:Homeschooling, Christian origins, parenting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 08 March 2016 - 02:33 PM
Don't feel obligated to know about pop culture. If you're talking with someone and miss a reference just ask what it's from. I do that. If you hear something referenced enough it might pique your curiosity enough to check it out.
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#9 Jeff
Free Thinker
Regular Member
1,529 posts
Gender:Male
Location:South Carolina currently... smack in the middle of it
Interests:Real life pretty much...
Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 March 2016 - 06:22 AM
I can help you with Star Wars.
Watch episode 4 (first movie)
Watch episode 5 (second movie)
Skip all others until episode 7 (most recent movie)
All the good and none of the pain
really just enjoy what you want but there is so much to enjoy out there. Go find it when you feel like it.
Edited by Jeff, 09 March 2016 - 06:24 AM.
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#10 violetbutterfly
Apostate
Regular Member
883 posts
Gender:Female
Interests:health, music, nature, home renovation
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:14 AM
Meh, you're fine! I don't even have a TV, by choice. I couldn't care less about the Oscars and most popular TV makes me cringe, especially the current obsession with "reality" shows. Star Wars...I'd rather go to the dentist. No really. Clean teeth are preferable. A lot of new music is just meh. I will occasionally come across a pop culture magazine and upon flipping through it, will realize I have no idea who most of the celebrities are. Urban dictionary makes me really uncomfortable. And video games? Just no. So I pretty much just checked off your entire list. :) I did enjoy the Harry Potter movies, but definitely not to the extent of most people.
So that said, no reason at all to feel like you're missing out. I hope your feelings about things being temporary and thus uninteresting are just a stage of deconversion and will pass soon.
If you are into conspiracies and paranormal, I do recommend checking out the original X-Files. Fun stuff, but it can be kind of graphic. And I'm sure as you go on and allow yourself to enjoy things again, you will find your niche. Pop culture is sometimes like the McDonald's of hobbies...There are much more fulfilling, satisfying and healthy ways to spend your time.
Are you looking for suggestions? Have you checked out Pinterest at all? It may actually be overwhelming at first, but I have gotten so many good ideas there in regards to hobbies, crafts, gardening, cooking, etc. Those are some things I'm into...whatever you're into, you will find it there. And as far as music, I really love Pandora. I have discovered lots of great new music based on their music suggestions based on what I already like. :) One cool song leads me to look up the band and I end up finding a whole collection of albums and new music. I also sometimes get sucked into the black hole of science documentaries on YouTube as well. And books....having a kindle app is a double edged sword because there is access to basically every book ever written, but it's TOO easy to buy them. :) For every book description you check out, there are suggestions for so many more you will probably be into.
Don't worry about the things that don't resonate with you and keep an eye out for the things that do.
ETA: For the record, if someone told me they don't know who Kanye West is, it would make me like that person more. There ARE people who would cherish a friendship with you, exactly as you are in this moment. Don't settle for less and embrace the fact that you aren't into pop culture. When people tease me about not having a TV or knowing who a celebrity is, it actually makes me feel good to have confirmation that I'm not just following the crowd. Embrace it.
Edited by violetbutterfly, 09 March 2016 - 07:33 AM.
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#11 BeauCat
Doubter
Regular Member
45 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Acrylic painting, vacationing, trying to learn different languages, reading
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Atheist
Posted 09 March 2016 - 10:14 AM
I agree with a lot of people here, you don't really need to know any of that stuff to be "cultured" or fit in with the world.
Except Harry Potter.
Go to your nearest bookstore or rob one of your neighbor's bookshelves. That series is my Bible.
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#12 Geezer
Born Again Non-Believer
Regular Member
1,552 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Deep South in the buckle of the bible belt
Interests:Religious History, Cosmology, & Theoretical Physics for dummies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 March 2016 - 05:41 PM
How about sex (seriously)? A lot of cradle Xians are clueless when it come to sex. No one ever told them it isn't just for making babies, it's actually suppose to be fun. And missionary is but one of many interesting positions. And I'm absolutely certain that sexual experimentation will not doom anyone to hell. I know that is shocking news to some folks, but I am absolutely certain about that.
And the lights can be on and you don't have to do it under the covers. No, I'm serious You don't have to do it that way every time. And I'm also certain Jesus isn't watching or taking notes....or video taping you either. That would be weird.
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#13 Fuego
Free Thinker
♦ Diamond Patron ♦
1,857 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Vancouver, WA
Interests:singing, writing, computer geekery, cooking, science experiments, foreign languages, photography, gemstones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :communing with nature
Posted 09 March 2016 - 06:03 PM
InvidiaLuxe, on 07 Mar 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:
Thanks for the replies.
When I was growing up, my peers (not friends) in church quizzed me on things they were interested in, like song artists. I didn't know what they were talking about, so I failed their litmus tests for friendship. I mean, they would literally approach me and ask, "Do you know who Kanye West is?" I didn't know then, but I know now. And they'd give me a side look and walk away. I lost friendships over this shit.
I'm 33, and still to this day, I meet people who are wrapped up in one segment of one subculture, and act like I am totally missing out when I can't relate.
I think this is what I don't understand.
I am interested in conspiracy newscasters, paranormal explorations, and channeled messages. I take the channeled messages with a grain of salt because for all I know, the people could be acting. I still like to watch though.
Coast to Coast is a radio or XM radio broadcast you might enjoy, since it deals with conspiracies, extra-terrestrials, and so on. My wife eats that stuff up. But she couldn't care less about sci-fi or fantasy like Harry Potter.
Part of being You is finding those that you resonate with, and it sounds like you are finding several that don't vibe with you at all. My niece is that way, tends to stay to herself mostly, and has her own private interests. She finds most "friends" online. Some of that is dictated by where you live, and with whom you live. Portland Oregon is near me, and thrives on lots of diversity, so it is pretty easy to find others that like ___. Maybe in Kansas it would be a lot more difficult.
If you don't like some geek stuff that others adore, that's just part of being you. But if you want common ground with people, at least try for a bit of understanding from them why they like certain things. I love the Harry Potter series, not so much the movies, but the books because they are very entertaining and it feels like going into another world. Most others my age (early 50s) have only seen the movies, if that.
I don't follow sports at all, but most of the guys I work with are fanatics. They start manically talking about it and I do something else. We find common ground in other things, but sports won't ever be an interest to me, and they know that. I sing and dance, and they can't relate to that at all other than to be part of an audience. I ignore most of pop culture, don't watch TV, don't like the "music" of this generation, don't follow celebrity gossip, I'm too busy doing songs from yesteryear or listening to friends do shows. Or I could be off at a dance class or a retreat in the woods. As many as follow pop culture, there are LOTS of us that do not.
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#14 BarbarousBill
Strong Minded
Regular Member
231 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Idaho
Interests:Adventure
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :The Gods
Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:50 AM
I go to bars regularly (on off-days so it's not busy), go to football and soccer games or watch them on TV, and when events come to town I'll usually go just for the entertainment. I really don't have the time for much popular culture, even if I wished it to be so.
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#15 TheLyniezian
Strong Minded
Regular Member
212 posts
Gender:Male
Location:North-East England
Interests:Internet, scifi, comics, music, real science, computers, history, anime, news, politics, the odd walk... and too much introspecting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not as such...
Posted 23 March 2016 - 05:56 PM
Personally I'd say just go with what you enjoy, and don't be too bothered about the stuff you are not. It might be worth trying to ask people about the other stuff so you can find out more about it, get just interested in other people's hobbies but don't feel the need to have to be immersed in them in order to have meaningful friendships. You could try and find out how to talk about your own too. Everyone has different tastes. If people canot accomodate that maybe try getting involved in things where your interests are shared.
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Going To Good Friday Service Tonight
Started by TrueScotsman , Mar 25 2016 03:45 PM
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5 replies to this topic .
#1 TrueScotsman
Thinker
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168 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:Music, singing, hiking, reading, Wife
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:45 PM
I've decided to join my wife at the Good Friday service that her church is putting on.
I am thinking that I will be taking notes with my analysis of the whole experience, to try and understand the spectacle from an outside perspective. I've never been to a Good Friday Service as an atheist, but it should be interesting.
I'll report back later, if not then you'll know that I gave my heart to Jesus. lol
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#2 yunea
Pink Creature
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902 posts
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Location:EU
Interests:Maths, knitting, really really good coffee, sleep.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 25 March 2016 - 04:20 PM
I'll cross my fingers for you!
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#3 directionless
Infidel
Senior Member
1,429 posts
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Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:25 PM
Yeah, good luck. In my old church the Good Friday service was extra long and miserable. LOL
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#4 TrueScotsman
Thinker
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Gender:Male
Interests:Music, singing, hiking, reading, Wife
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:34 AM
Well the service was as expected, capitalism forces larger churches to really do their best to gain converts on Good Friday and Easter.
The basic message was about the love of the father in giving Jesus, and started out with the basic gospel presentation.
1. Creation, (aka creationism) look at elephants and whales.. Wow! Which then proceeded to the pinnacle of creation, man.
2. Fall, which of course is ultimately characterized as a rebellion in choosing our own path, and not god's way. Funny enough the more I hear about secular satanist movements (where it is symbolic) the more I can see how that makes sense.
3. Redemption, which was the primary point of the message, which was of course a gruesome emotionally manipulative expositoon of the crucifixion.
The last portion of the message was about responding to god's love, that if he gave so much what ought we to do. I find it interesting how preachers presuppose every single point, and then ask people to make major life decisions.
Despite all of the rubbish in the service, they are really good people who do mean well and many of them are still my friends. Many of them don't know that I'm an atheist, but even the ones that do don't treat me differently. They don't try to convert me, and I don't mess with their personal faith.
I think it would be interesting to start going to all kinds of different churches, belonging to different faiths and start learning directly from those services. I've taken several in depth courses on different religions, but an outsider perspective is always interesting.
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#5 Daffodil
Apostate
Regular Member
1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:41 AM
This is the season when the abusive boyfriend is most apparent - choose my love or I will torture you for eternity. Yeah, that sounds real nice!
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#6 older
Apostate
Regular Member
909 posts
Gender:Male
Location:USA
Interests:Logic, reason, common sense.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:20 PM
What is sad is that there is some good buried in Christianity, but it is overwhelmed by the negative attitudes toward man, life, pleasure, and much more. If we could abandon the superstition, and just focus on the Golden Rule and related concepts, it might be tolerable, and could even be a positive thing.
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Converts To Christianity Who Formerly Led Openly Homosexual Lifestyles
Started by nascimento94 , Sep 02 2015 07:18 PM
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10 replies to this topic .
#1 nascimento94
Curious
New Member
6 posts
Gender:Male
Location:USA
Interests:Computer programming, computer science, film production, Game of Thrones, screenwriting, creative writing, video game development, web and app development, classical/acoustic guitar
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Agnosticism
Posted 02 September 2015 - 07:18 PM
I have heard about life stories about converts to Christianity who professed to once being openly gay such as Rosaria Butterfield and Christopher Yuan, and have conflicted feelings toward their testimonies because they seem genuine. I will go through and elaborate upon each of their personal histories.
Rosaria Butterfield was formerly a lesbian English professor hostile towards the Christian faith who cohabited with a significant other of the same sex, and became the wife of a Presbyterian minister and mother after her Christian conversion, which precipitated from her academic research into the Christian beliefs. She has written an autobiography, "The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert: An English Professor's Journey into the Christian Faith," where she gives her testimony. Here is a briefer testimony by her:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?paging=off
Christopher Yuan was a dental school drop-out who dealt drugs and went to gay bars. He was eventually arrested for the possession and sale of drugs, went to prison, and diagnosed with HIV. Dejected, he turned to and found Jesus. Now he is a Christian minister. Here is short video interview with him: https://www.youtube....h?v=cwmUNqrirO4
What do you guys think about Christian converts who previously lived homosexual lifestyles? Do you guys think they were ashamed of their orientation and decided to rely on the promises of Christianity to alleviate that guilt and self-loathing? Or some other possible reason? Do you think they're lying about their testimonies? If so, then why?
I am aware that these two are not the only ones who have lived in the LGBT culture and subsequently prayed the sinner's prayer of repentance, they are just examples to start the debate. If you guys know of people like them, then feel free to include them in the discussion.
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#2 Jeff
Free Thinker
Regular Member
1,529 posts
Gender:Male
Location:South Carolina currently... smack in the middle of it
Interests:Real life pretty much...
Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 02 September 2015 - 07:21 PM
If they were repulsed by opposite sex before then they are suffering now. If they were more Bi, then I can see it.
But they still lust I'm sure whether they carry through or not.
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#3 mymistake
The Pope wants to punch me in the nose!
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Interests:family, support, humanism, meditation, peace of mind, moving on as forgiveness, deprograming, laughing at the Bible, Fourth Wave Feminism, Game of Thrones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :"I enjoy mythology but I'm not religious about it"
Posted 02 September 2015 - 07:56 PM
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:18 PM, said:
. . . formerly a lesbian . . .
Not going to happen. Christians try to change the meaning of gay. Sexual orientation is about what a person finds attractive (and also what they do not find repulsive). The Christian agenda is to ignore what people want because Christians call that "temptation" and consider it to be the first step of sin. Christianity will convince some people to change their behavior but gay isn't a lifestyle, it's an identity. Christian conversion therapy has generally been shown to be a fraud.
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#4 sdelsolray
I'm Not That Important
Regular Member
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None of the above
Posted 02 September 2015 - 08:23 PM
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:18 PM, said:
I have heard about life stories about converts to Christianity who professed to once being openly gay such as Rosaria Butterfield and Christopher Yuan, and have conflicted feelings toward their testimonies because they seem genuine. I will go through and elaborate upon each of their personal histories.
Rosaria Butterfield was formerly a lesbian English professor hostile towards the Christian faith who cohabited with a significant other of the same sex, and became the wife of a Presbyterian minister and mother after her Christian conversion, which precipitated from her academic research into the Christian beliefs. She has written an autobiography, "The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert: An English Professor's Journey into the Christian Faith," where she gives her testimony. Here is a briefer testimony by her:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?paging=off
Christopher Yuan was a dental school drop-out who dealt drugs and went to gay bars. He was eventually arrested for the possession and sale of drugs, went to prison, and diagnosed with HIV. Dejected, he turned to and found Jesus. Now he is a Christian minister. Here is short video interview with him: https://www.youtube....h?v=cwmUNqrirO4
...
An unhappy woman and a drug dealer turn to a particular religion. Yawn.
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:18 PM, said:
...
What do you guys think about Christian converts who previously lived homosexual lifestyles?
...
I don't think much about them. They are free to choose as they see fit.
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:18 PM, said:
...
Do you guys think they were ashamed of their orientation and decided to rely on the promises of Christianity to alleviate that guilt and self-loathing?
...
I don't know.
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:18 PM, said:
...
Do you think they're lying about their testimonies? If so, then why?
...
Again, I don't know, and neither does anyone else (except perhaps the declarants themselves).
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:18 PM, said:
...
I am aware that these two are not the only ones who have lived in the LGBT culture and subsequently prayed the sinner's prayer of repentance, they are just examples to start the debate. If you guys know of people like them, then feel free to include them in the discussion.
What debate?
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#5 nascimento94
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Agnosticism
Posted 02 September 2015 - 10:34 PM
It seems that I have posted a rather frivolous topic.
Christians have bombarded me with personal testimonies of supposedly powerful conversions to keep me from de-converting. And I tell myself, "if those folks found a way to be devoted to Christ wholeheartedly for the rest of their lives, then maybe I can too. I just need to try harder." There's a tug of war going on in my life right now regarding my so-called spiritual life.
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#6 mymistake
The Pope wants to punch me in the nose!
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :"I enjoy mythology but I'm not religious about it"
Posted 02 September 2015 - 10:50 PM
nascimento94, on 02 Sept 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:
It seems that I have posted a rather frivolous topic.
Christians have bombarded me with personal testimonies of supposedly powerful conversions to keep me from de-converting. And I tell myself, "if those folks found a way to be devoted to Christ wholeheartedly for the rest of their lives, then maybe I can too. I just need to try harder." There's a tug of war going on in my life right now regarding my so-called spiritual life.
Perhaps you should make a new topic in either the Lion's Den, Ex Christian life or Rants section so we can specifically talk about what you are going through right now?
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#7 yunea
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Posted 03 September 2015 - 12:14 AM
Finding two curious anecdotal cases isn't evidence of anything generally being a real thing in people's lives.
There are many people on this forum who lived with heavy guilt about their sexuality when they were Christians, and prayed on their knees, tears flowing down their face that God would wash away their sin and make them more like what pleases him - and nothing at all happened. Of course, those are anecdotal cases too. But just their existence in such big numbers refutes the claim of a honest sinner's prayer magically changing people's sexuality.
Like Jeff, I would think that those people who have stories about God "fixing their homosexuality" were probably more or less bi to begin with. If not, they are choosing suppressing and denying themselves for the sake of promises we don't know hold any water.
A druggie in prison has nothing left to lose, and they have the addictive lifestyle to begin with so it's easy to change it into an addictive religion. Plus it makes them look "good", and people will be more ready to accept them when they're out of prison.
I too think you posted in the wrong section, but as mymistake said, perhaps tell a little more about yourself in a different section?
Welcome to the forum, by the way! I'm glad you found it.
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#8 amateur
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No, not necessary
Posted 03 September 2015 - 03:30 PM
My opinion on stories like these is that every person is an individual with their own personal lifetime background, their own opinions and quirks and personal reasons for making the decisions they do. If one individual person decides they are no longer gay and convert to xianity, that's fine, it's their life, and it's not up to me to tell them that they are still gay, because I do not know their entire life story and how they made their decisions. It's the same with everybody. It's ok to read about other people and come to some conclusions about your own life, but they should be thoughtful conclusions, not just "I need to do what they did because of no good reason other than they did it."
Very often xians like to think that everybody is the same: god made man and woman and the only logical thing after that is one man and one woman should marry and have children. People in churches torture themselves over that if they don't fit that perfect xian mold. But it's just one option. Really, as an adult you can do what you want, within legal limits. And you can even do illegal things and take the chance on getting away with it or getting caught and suffering the consequences. Each individual is completely free to be and do whatever they choose.
If you are happy with your life and choices, then you are doing fine. If Rosaria and Christopher are happy with their lives and choices, then they are doing fine. If anybody isn't happy with their life and choices, then it's up to each individual adult to sit down and think about what would make them happy, then do their best to do that.
It's not up to any group (a church group, an atheist group, an LGBT group, your family) to tell you what to do and insist that you do it and that you must be happy doing what they say.
It's up to you to run your own life.
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#9 Storm
Trying to Figure it Out
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :My wife. She makes humans.
Posted 04 September 2015 - 02:52 PM
This topic has been on my mind for about a week due to a pastor who is a part of the church I attend has come out as formerly gay and she has now been healed of this and is a true heterosexual woman now because of the "life-changing power of Jesus"TM
I work professionally as a therapist and I have come to the realization that we as humans often tend to look at things in a black or white, or all or none fashion, but the reality is that its not like that. Everyone's beliefs and ideals are different and if you look at them on a scale that goes from -10 to 10 with zero being the absolute neutral, everyone fits in different spots on that scale.
-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Max Neutral Max
Some people who are gay may only be gay up to say 2 or 3, so it takes less effort for them to move from that point to -2 or -3 and become "not gay". The same principle applies to pretty much anything you can think of. For me, I anticipated that I would be a Christian for the rest of my life. I was so sure of it, I would have labeled myself as a 10, (reality was more like a 7) but then things started to fall apart and I have since turned from what I "knew" I would never leave, to now I have left. Now I would label myself as a -2 or -3 because I am still relatively new to this whole atheism thing. But I think that often, humans generally think that everyone is either a 10 or -10, not something in the middle. So saying that someone went from one thing to another may or may not be a big deal. If that person was on the low end near neutral (like -2) and they swung to the other low end near neutral (like 2), it wasn't really all that big of a change. It was still a change, but not as significant as it might seem.
The other truth is that no one knows exactly where they fit on the scale for any given belief or ideal. Our own biases generally influence us to think we are higher on the scale than we really are. That way when we tell the story of how we changed, we perceive that it was a huge ordeal when the truth is closer to it being a modest change. But our worldview changing is a big deal to us.
Change is change and just simply believing something different, even if it isn't real, can still be a powerful motivator. Think placebo effect.
This is just my opinion now. Definitely subject to revision or change.
Edited by Storm, 04 September 2015 - 03:17 PM.
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#10 nascimento94
Curious
New Member
6 posts
Gender:Male
Location:USA
Interests:Computer programming, computer science, film production, Game of Thrones, screenwriting, creative writing, video game development, web and app development, classical/acoustic guitar
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Agnosticism
Posted 12 September 2015 - 06:59 AM
Thanks for the welcomes everyone. It would have been more fitting of me to post a testimonial first.
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#11 Geezer
Born Again Non-Believer
Regular Member
1,552 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Deep South in the buckle of the bible belt
Interests:Religious History, Cosmology, & Theoretical Physics for dummies.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 13 September 2015 - 08:39 AM
I had a friend, and fellow elder in a very conservative fundy sect of Christianity, that transgendered from male to female. He went all the way including having his genitals changed too. His wife divorced him & he is now married to a man. His former wife told us they had not had sex in years. She realized he wasn't attracted to a woman. She also acknowledged he had been cross dressing for years & had more jewelry & dresses than she did.
He was clearly attracted to men. Genetics determines who we are as humans. I don't think genetics per se makes anyone gay. I would tend to think it is more like a birth defect. Common sense indicates gays are attracted to the same sex for a reason & I'm convinced it isn't a choice, It is simply who they are, and I don't believe they can change that. They are who they are, why should they try to be someone they aren't?
My friend seems perfectly happy as a woman. I don't believe a gay person can become a straight person.
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#1 Daffodil
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 08 February 2016 - 01:53 PM
Sigh, because I love my husband, and because I live in a part of the world where everybody goes to church and that's one of the "Big 5" social questions everyone asks upon meeting someone new:
1) What do you do?
2) Are you married?
3) Do you have kids?
4) What church do you go to?
5) Something sports related.
My husband is still as agnostic as ever and I am still an atheist. So here's the disgusting confession: We're doing it for purely social reasons. It goes against everything I am and believe about myself as an authentically honest person who does not "use" people for personal gain, but what can I do? We talked about going to a universalist church, but the people we have known that go there are, for lack of a more charitable word, weird. My husband is afraid of losing important contacts as he tries to continue to move up in his career and, in case you missed it the first time, EVERYBODY goes to church here. Can you taste the disdain and irritation oozing through this keyboard? I'm barely holding back, here. I suppose this should have gone into the rants forum, but oh well. Thankfully, this is not a church that pushes heavy involvement, so we should be able to just keep a few chairs warm for an hour or so and leave. I've promised my husband that I will work hard to counteract any indoctrination I detect occurring with our children. He still doesn't think a little church'n is bad for kids. 🙄
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#2 florduh
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Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:11 PM
That's just sad.
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#3 FreeThinkerNZ
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Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:21 PM
I would worry about the kids. Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt? Money isn't everything.
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This is my 'Please Forgive Me' letter - It is my testimony and I hope it helps someone....You'll have to copy and paste.
http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44259-please-forgive-me/
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Non-Believer
Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:30 PM
Daffodil, on 08 Feb 2016 - 2:53 PM, said:
Sigh, because I love my husband, and because I live in a part of the world where everybody goes to church and that's one of the "Big 5" social questions everyone asks upon meeting someone new:
1) What do you do?
2) Are you married?
3) Do you have kids?
4) What church do you go to?
5) Something sports related.
My husband is still as agnostic as ever and I am still an atheist. So here's the disgusting confession: We're doing it for purely social reasons. It goes against everything I am and believe about myself as an authentically honest person who does not "use" people for personal gain, but what can I do? We talked about going to a universalist church, but the people we have known that go there are, for lack of a more charitable word, weird. My husband is afraid of losing important contacts as he tries to continue to move up in his career and, in case you missed it the first time, EVERYBODY goes to church here. Can you taste the disdain and irritation oozing through this keyboard? I'm barely holding back, here. I suppose this should have gone into the rants forum, but oh well. Thankfully, this is not a church that pushes heavy involvement, so we should be able to just keep a few chairs warm for an hour or so and leave. I've promised my husband that I will work hard to counteract any indoctrination I detect occurring with our children. He still doesn't think a little church'n is bad for kids.
Daffodil, you are wonderful hon. I also do not like the message that christianity teaches. Once you know that you were not born in sin and need the blood of a savior to save you, it's so hard to listen to.
Even when I attended the 'grace filled' churches at the last going off of my church days, I could barely sit there and listen. You may have to think about this as a form of survival. I will admit openly that I am grateful I don't have to go anymore but I am understanding now of people who do have to go for certain reasons as to keep peace in the family. I went through a terrible bitter stage during my deconverting days here at Ex-c where I just couldn't understand why people who knew the truth continued to go. I'm much softer on the issue, as much as I still detest what religion has done to people across our globe.
You say your husband is agnostic? Well you are halfway there. It sounds like he needs the connection of the church for solely social and business reasons. Some may say that's using the church. We all used the church for various reasons including getting brownie points from god so we wouldn't go to hell.... The game of survival is a big game and sometimes you 'have to do what you have to do' to survive. Is this lying? Maybe. I call it survival. Besides, lying is not the worst sin you can commit, especially if you are trying not to hurt someone in the process and it sounds to me that he doesn't want to hurt anyone.
Maybe go back for awhile until he gains enough confidence to get his business contacts elsewhere. Like you said, they are not a fundamentalist church. Stay on all the light topics of conversation. Enjoy the little suppers they have. If my mom came back from the dead today and told me she wanted me to go to church with her every Sunday because it would make her happy, I would do it. I wouldn't for my next door neighbor or any of my friends who know me, but if it's someone who is so important to you, go and keep the peace.
I have changed personalities so much here on EX-c in the last 5 years that I can form different opinions from month to month but that's because I have learned to have empathy for peoples' situations and I also know how the world's system works. I may be called a big fake for saying this but I really don't care about that anymore. Like I said, 'sometimes ya gotta' do what's ya gotta' do' to survive.
You're a good person to do this for your husband.
(hug)
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#5 Daffodil
Apostate
Regular Member
1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:50 PM
FreeThinkerNZ, on 08 Feb 2016 - 3:21 PM, said:
I would worry about the kids. Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt? Money isn't everything.
We're working on that. We really don't want to stay in Kansas because of how completely Governor Brownback and his cronies are destroying the state, but we're not sure where to go or whether there will be a job available for my husband without him taking a huge pay cut. He's eligible to retire in 2018, so as long as we can find something else somewhere else, we'll hightail it outta here!
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#6 Daffodil
Apostate
Regular Member
1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 08 February 2016 - 03:01 PM
Margee, on 08 Feb 2016 - 3:30 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 08 Feb 2016 - 2:53 PM, said:
Sigh, because I love my husband, and because I live in a part of the world where everybody goes to church and that's one of the "Big 5" social questions everyone asks upon meeting someone new:
1) What do you do?
2) Are you married?
3) Do you have kids?
4) What church do you go to?
5) Something sports related.
My husband is still as agnostic as ever and I am still an atheist. So here's the disgusting confession: We're doing it for purely social reasons. It goes against everything I am and believe about myself as an authentically honest person who does not "use" people for personal gain, but what can I do? We talked about going to a universalist church, but the people we have known that go there are, for lack of a more charitable word, weird. My husband is afraid of losing important contacts as he tries to continue to move up in his career and, in case you missed it the first time, EVERYBODY goes to church here. Can you taste the disdain and irritation oozing through this keyboard? I'm barely holding back, here. I suppose this should have gone into the rants forum, but oh well. Thankfully, this is not a church that pushes heavy involvement, so we should be able to just keep a few chairs warm for an hour or so and leave. I've promised my husband that I will work hard to counteract any indoctrination I detect occurring with our children. He still doesn't think a little church'n is bad for kids.
Daffodil, you are wonderful hon. I also do not like the message that christianity teaches. Once you know that you were not born in sin and need the blood of a savior to save you, it's so hard to listen to.
Even when I attended the 'grace filled' churches at the last going off of my church days, I could barely sit there and listen. You may have to think about this as a form of survival. I will admit openly that I am grateful I don't have to go anymore but I am understanding now of people who do have to go for certain reasons as to keep peace in the family. I went through a terrible bitter stage during my deconverting days here at Ex-c where I just couldn't understand why people who knew the truth continued to go. I'm much softer on the issue, as much as I still detest what religion has done to people across our globe.
You say your husband is agnostic? Well you are halfway there. It sounds like he needs the connection of the church for solely social and business reasons. Some may say that's using the church. We all used the church for various reasons including getting brownie points from god so we wouldn't go to hell.... The game of survival is a big game and sometimes you 'have to do what you have to do' to survive. Is this lying? Maybe. I call it survival. Besides, lying is not the worst sin you can commit, especially if you are trying not to hurt someone in the process and it sounds to me that he doesn't want to hurt anyone.
Maybe go back for awhile until he gains enough confidence to get his business contacts elsewhere. Like you said, they are not a fundamentalist church. Stay on all the light topics of conversation. Enjoy the little suppers they have. If my mom came back from the dead today and told me she wanted me to go to church with her every Sunday because it would make her happy, I would do it. I wouldn't for my next door neighbor or any of my friends who know me, but if it's someone who is so important to you, go and keep the peace.
I have changed personalities so much here on EX-c in the last 5 years that I can form different opinions from month to month but that's because I have learned to have empathy for peoples' situations and I also know how the world's system works. I may be called a big fake for saying this but I really don't care about that anymore. Like I said, 'sometimes ya gotta' do what's ya gotta' do' to survive.
You're a good person to do this for your husband.
(hug)
Thanks so much, Margee. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm still fairly new to this, only about a year and a half. I go back and forth between anger and compassion for people I know that are still in it. I expect to slowly develop a more live-and-let-live mindset, but it's hard. I want to be my true authentic self and not pretend anymore, but we all have to pretend to some extent just to get along with other people. My husband knows how I feel and respects it. It's give and take, I guess.
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#7 Lilith666
Rationalist
Regular Member
2,243 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Hell, maybe.
Interests:I have two main hobbies: I love music and love to read. I also like art galleries, drama, and playing with my iPod. Of course, theology and philosophy are big ones, since I'm on here.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Truth and peace.
Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:20 PM
Wow.
It sounds like your husband still associates church with good old-fashioned apple-pie values. There are better places to instill conscientiousness and other beneficial things in kids without taking them to listen to a pack of lies.
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#8 mymistake
The Pope wants to punch me in the nose!
Regular Member
16,205 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:family, support, humanism, meditation, peace of mind, moving on as forgiveness, deprograming, laughing at the Bible, Fourth Wave Feminism, Game of Thrones
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :"I enjoy mythology but I'm not religious about it"
Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:57 PM
I can relate to attending church for social contacts. Maybe you should pick the two most popular churches in your area and alternate. Reach out to the business contacts who attend. No need to hide what you do. If anybody asks simply smile and say you attend the other church too "because we have good friends there too".
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#9 older
Apostate
Regular Member
909 posts
Gender:Male
Location:USA
Interests:Logic, reason, common sense.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 08 February 2016 - 10:01 PM
If the doors are open and everyone is welcome, then I don't think you are being dishonest as long as you don't get into theological discussions. Don't wear a crucifix and don't show up with a Bible in hand. Yes, it's uncomfortable, but as long as you don't present a false picture of your belief I think you are being honest. There is nothing wrong with showing up at a public event to see your friends. Their presumptions are not your problem.
If you can, just ignore the religious stuff and enjoy the social parts and the free food. Consider the services as entertainment. While it's mostly the same show with the same plot each time, parts of it do change. Think of all the congregants as extras in the show, and check out the costumes and makeup. When I was a kid I got through the service by asking to sit in the balcony where I could look down and count the bald heads. See if you can find a church that has communion, so you'll get something to eat part way through.
Edited by older, 08 February 2016 - 10:03 PM.
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#10 Daffodil
Apostate
Regular Member
1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:15 PM
MM and older - I think going to two churches would be too much for us both. We've only been to our church twice so far this year, and I'm already treating it as a people watching exercise. While my husband has never sung, I find it awkward not to sing, but I'm getting used to it. I actually find myself absentmindedly singing along to the tunes I always liked. I'm tempted to covertly check my email while others flip pages in their bibles - they'll just think I'm looking up verses! We've been running late which means we end up getting seated near the front. Makes it interesting when it looks like the pastor is looking right at you. We tried just going to a small group last fall and we both felt so uncomfortable with it that this seemed the better compromise. It sucks to have to get up early on Sundays, but we'll get through it.
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#11 older
Apostate
Regular Member
909 posts
Gender:Male
Location:USA
Interests:Logic, reason, common sense.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nope
Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:14 AM
Daffodil, on 09 Feb 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:
It sucks to have to get up early on Sundays, but we'll get through it.
Hope you can get to an early service so it doesn't screw up the whole day. Ours didn't start until 11 which meant little else could be done.
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#12 Blindsighted
Doubter
Regular Member
65 posts
Gender:Female
Location:California
Interests:Homeschooling, Christian origins, parenting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 09 February 2016 - 01:52 AM
I understand. It is a place to connect. I wouldn't worry too much about the kids, unless it's that they might blow your cover, so to speak.
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#13 TheLyniezian
Strong Minded
Regular Member
212 posts
Gender:Male
Location:North-East England
Interests:Internet, scifi, comics, music, real science, computers, history, anime, news, politics, the odd walk... and too much introspecting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not as such...
Posted 09 February 2016 - 06:35 AM
Lilith666, on 08 Feb 2016 - 8:20 PM, said:
Wow.
It sounds like your husband still associates church with good old-fashioned apple-pie values. There are better places to instill conscientiousness and other beneficial things in kids without taking them to listen to a pack of lies.
Despite the differences in culture I recall being told that's why I got took to church (fairly moderate-to-liberalish, but semi-traditional Anglican) in the first place. Maybe it worked for a while before I went to uni. and on the one hand went all fundy nutcase whilst on the other developing a number of very secular bad habits. And it's fair to say that given what I hear of some in the church were like, either, good values weren't there in everyone.
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#14 TheLyniezian
Strong Minded
Regular Member
212 posts
Gender:Male
Location:North-East England
Interests:Internet, scifi, comics, music, real science, computers, history, anime, news, politics, the odd walk... and too much introspecting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not as such...
Posted 09 February 2016 - 06:55 AM
I don't know if personally I could go to another church service just for the sake of getting involved in the community. I'm sure I could get involved in some of the fundraisers and community events if I had to, but couldn't in all honesty sing hymns about a God I no longer believe in. Even wishy-washy-anglican Midnight mass type things, I felt I had to just sit there, never mind the Christmas traditional stuff. I do remember when I was at uni., going to a couple of the choral evensongs in the college chapel on a Thursday night after exams to unwind (note: I got 50% extra time due to special needs so those exams were long!) I didn't like it all that much as there wasn't much ordinary congregants did in terms of perticipating, but now I'd probably enjoy it all the more for precisely that reason! (If I felt I had to go to church at all, or it was expected socially). I don't know if there's much of that kind of thing in Kansas, though.
Kind of feel sorry for those living in that kind of Bible Belt type culture where socialising is very difficult without being involved in some sort of church. I think it is quite easy for me living in a country which isn't all that religious and in a family who (bar one) either never was or is just as much made up of ex-Christians anyway. I upsect in that sort of environment it would be just as well to stick to the bits that aren't strictly church services or just sit there. And try to find one that is fairly liberal but not nutcasey about it.
Though, you might want to avoid the events side of things and stick to the services, don't know.
Edited by TheLyniezian, 09 February 2016 - 07:05 AM.
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#15 TheLyniezian
Strong Minded
Regular Member
212 posts
Gender:Male
Location:North-East England
Interests:Internet, scifi, comics, music, real science, computers, history, anime, news, politics, the odd walk... and too much introspecting.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not as such...
Posted 09 February 2016 - 07:13 AM
Personally I'm wondering whether to maintain contact with some of the people from my old church or other Christian friends. I have a lot on Facebook who I still keep on there but not too keen on all the Christian-related posts I get and I don't want to unfollow them either. I'm not sure I want to come clean to everybody as there are some who either are too devout to bother with, or with others it might be damaging for them as they might need that for emotional support, having come out of difficult circumstances. I have started writing my "extimony" on my blog but not sure whther to share.
I am not going back to church, but there are some tangentially church-related things I might still bother with- for example some of them run a lunch club for the homeless and those in difficult circumstances, which I did volunteer for one time and have been to some of the fundraising events. Might at least go to the latter, though I know the luhch club thing does insist on the whole making a gospel talk thing for the people who go to it so it's not just charity. There is another guy who's politically involved and though being part of UKIP (which goes against my resurgent lefty instincts) I am still Euroskeptic so had offered to get involved with him as part of the "Leave" campaign. Any thoughts?
(Sorry if I'm taking over your thread here Daffodil!)
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#16 directionless
Infidel
Senior Member
1,429 posts
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Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:41 AM
Daffodil, on 08 Feb 2016 - 3:50 PM, said:
FreeThinkerNZ, on 08 Feb 2016 - 3:21 PM, said:
I would worry about the kids. Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt? Money isn't everything.
We're working on that. We really don't want to stay in Kansas because of how completely Governor Brownback and his cronies are destroying the state, but we're not sure where to go or whether there will be a job available for my husband without him taking a huge pay cut. He's eligible to retire in 2018, so as long as we can find something else somewhere else, we'll hightail it outta here!
I was born in Kansas, and I lived there until high school around 1983. I don't remember Kansas being particularly religious. I do remember that my biology teacher in 9th grade was not allowed to teach evolution. That would have been about 1982. He explained that we could read that chapter in the text book if we were interested, but some parents did not want him to teach it in class. Other than that, I don't remember religion being a problem.
I guess some people think Kansas is flat and ugly, but I was born there, so it seems pretty to me. I always tell people that they need to visit Kansas to see what heaven might look like. Whenever I see something pretty in nature, I tell people that it is almost as pretty as Kansas. ;)
Edited by directionless, 09 February 2016 - 09:45 AM.
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#17 florduh
Not Right in the Head
Super Moderator
17,357 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :my doG
Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:04 AM
Whenever I see such stories I wonder........
If everyone in your family and town, all your potential business clients, all potential friends were going to Klan meetings rather than just some church, would you try to fit in? What if they were all Satanists or Scientologists? How far would you go to compromise, lie and discard your own values just to keep the peace or make the sale or get the job? Would you take your children to Klan functions so they would be accepted by other Klan children?
Do you really believe, with all you know, that Christianity is harmless?
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#18 Daffodil
Apostate
Regular Member
1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:46 AM
directionless, on 09 Feb 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:
Daffodil, on 08 Feb 2016 - 3:50 PM, said:
FreeThinkerNZ, on 08 Feb 2016 - 3:21 PM, said:
I would worry about the kids. Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt? Money isn't everything.
We're working on that. We really don't want to stay in Kansas because of how completely Governor Brownback and his cronies are destroying the state, but we're not sure where to go or whether there will be a job available for my husband without him taking a huge pay cut. He's eligible to retire in 2018, so as long as we can find something else somewhere else, we'll hightail it outta here!
I was born in Kansas, and I lived there until high school around 1983. I don't remember Kansas being particularly religious. I do remember that my biology teacher in 9th grade was not allowed to teach evolution. That would have been about 1982. He explained that we could read that chapter in the text book if we were interested, but some parents did not want him to teach it in class. Other than that, I don't remember religion being a problem. I guess some people think Kansas is flat and ugly, but I was born there, so it seems pretty to me. I always tell people that they need to visit Kansas to see what heaven might look like. Whenever I see something pretty in nature, I tell people that it is almost as pretty as Kansas. ;)
I've lived here since 1992 (husband since he was 2), and we had a Democrat for governor for awhile during that time, so it's not always been like this. Unfortunately, one of the Koch brothers lives here and he has helped to fund a whole posse of conservative Republicans and fundamentalist Christians into office. Governor Brownback was a member of a mainline denomination, but converted to Catholicism while in office (if I remember correctly). I thought that would turn off evangelicals but he immediately started on the anti abortion kick and they adopted him as their favored son. We really thought we had a chance to get him out of office during the last voting cycle, but the spread was bigger than we realized. We just can't understand how so many people are willing to keep him in office despite what his administration has done to the state budget! Everyone outside of Kansas that looks at what they've done just shakes their heads in astonishment. Kansas is a textbook case of what happens when corporations take over and tax breaks are given to the rich and powerful. The latest thing that scares us personally is that to try to fix the budget, they're starting to eye the state retirement systems. That directly affects my husband as a law enforcement officer. Even if we manage to get out of here, we could still be affected by their stupidity.
As to the scenery, we are in the "pretty" eastern half of the state - rolling native grass-covered hills with buffalo, cattle and a few elk. The western half of the state is what people imagine when they think of flat Kansas.
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#19 Daffodil
Apostate
Regular Member
1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 09 February 2016 - 11:15 AM
florduh, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:
Whenever I see such stories I wonder........
If everyone in your family and town, all your potential business clients, all potential friends were going to Klan meetings rather than just some church, would you try to fit in? What if they were all Satanists or Scientologists? How far would you go to compromise, lie and discard your own values just to keep the peace or make the sale or get the job? Would you take your children to Klan functions so they would be accepted by other Klan children?
Do you really believe, with all you know, that Christianity is harmless?
No I don't think Christianity is harmless, but my husband does. However, those really aren't fair comparisons, are they? There are many levels of "crazy" in Christianity and while the one we're in is not the mildest, it is the mildest of the evangelicals. We will not give a penny to the church, I will not allow either child to go to a bible study group, and I will debrief them after every Sunday school experience. This is not a large town where we can just move to the other side and start over. Everybody who is anybody knows everyone else who is anybody important. As I said, neither of us want to stay here and we are working on getting out, but until then, we have to play by their rules to an extent. We don't lie in response to direct questions and we have confessed (so to speak) to those closest to us in the church. It is a very open and accepting church, despite its evangelical name. I would vastly prefer to just never set foot in a church again for the rest of my life, but life doesn't always allow you to live the way you ideally want to. If you're able to never ever compromise, then more power to you, but not all of us are in that position.
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#20 florduh
Not Right in the Head
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Posted 09 February 2016 - 11:27 AM
Quote
However, those really aren't fair comparisons, are they?
I was not comparing or contrasting them. I was just pointing out that we might consider how far we would go in compromising ourselves. Some would draw the line at pretending to be a Klan sympathiser, some draw the line at anything that would misrepresent their beliefs and identity.
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Why I Am Going Back To Church
Started by Daffodil , Feb 08 2016 01:53 PM
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95 replies to this topic .
#21 directionless
Infidel
Senior Member
1,429 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 09 February 2016 - 11:52 AM
Daffodil, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:
I've lived here since 1992 (husband since he was 2), and we had a Democrat for governor for awhile during that time, so it's not always been like this. Unfortunately, one of the Koch brothers lives here and he has helped to fund a whole posse of conservative Republicans and fundamentalist Christians into office. Governor Brownback was a member of a mainline denomination, but converted to Catholicism while in office (if I remember correctly). I thought that would turn off evangelicals but he immediately started on the anti abortion kick and they adopted him as their favored son. We really thought we had a chance to get him out of office during the last voting cycle, but the spread was bigger than we realized. We just can't understand how so many people are willing to keep him in office despite what his administration has done to the state budget! Everyone outside of Kansas that looks at what they've done just shakes their heads in astonishment. Kansas is a textbook case of what happens when corporations take over and tax breaks are given to the rich and powerful. The latest thing that scares us personally is that to try to fix the budget, they're starting to eye the state retirement systems. That directly affects my husband as a law enforcement officer. Even if we manage to get out of here, we could still be affected by their stupidity.
As to the scenery, we are in the "pretty" eastern half of the state - rolling native grass-covered hills with buffalo, cattle and a few elk. The western half of the state is what people imagine when they think of flat Kansas.
I lived in eastern Kansas too. My grandparents lived in Wichita, so I saw western Kansas. We always drove through the flint hills. Now I live in Texas, and the politics is probably worse than Kansas. I don't follow politics, and I don't even know who are governor is right now. I just try to tune it all out, because it depresses me. Texas is a really dirty state compared to Kansas. Everybody is so concerned with their own freedoms that they trample on other people. Apparently people can carry concealed handguns. It is just ridiculous. You need to move to Hawaii. wink.png
Edited by directionless, 09 February 2016 - 11:53 AM.
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#22 directionless
Infidel
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1,429 posts
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Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:03 PM
^ I guess Texas is good too. There is some pretty scenery like the Big Bend National Park. It's almost as pretty as Kansas sometimes. wink.png
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#23 directionless
Infidel
Senior Member
1,429 posts
Gender:Male
Interests:history, cats, ufos
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :not sure
Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:38 PM
Sorry to get off-topic. sad.png I can see merit to everybody's viewpoints. I don't know what is the best decision.
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#24 StillLooking
Skeptic
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588 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I don't know
Posted 09 February 2016 - 01:49 PM
So sorry to hear this. I have no issue with people who go to church for social reasons. Every circumstance is different. We have to do what we have to do to survive. I just hope it doesn't ruin your sanity or your husband's... or your kids'.
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#25 furball
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Posted 09 February 2016 - 01:55 PM
Hi Daffodil. Two thoughts. First I would be careful. Doctrine of any kind can have a subtle way of infiltrating your thoughts without you being aware of it.
My second thought, about your husband needing to get clients etc. If christianity/christians used you like a pawn to join their death cult, I see no reason why you can't use them for your own purposes.
It's a sticky situation to be in, but if I were you, since it is your husband who wants to further his career, let him go to church while you and the kids stay home.
Good luck!
Edited by furball, 09 February 2016 - 01:56 PM.
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#26 Jeff
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Women, food, wine, music, whiskey, scotch, conversation, friends, experiences. So many good things that used to involve guilt.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 February 2016 - 03:05 PM
gack
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#27 Vigile
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nebbiolo, devushki and Kerouac.
Posted 09 February 2016 - 03:33 PM
I hope you have the ability to compartmentalize on the level of a Bill Clinton. I personally just don't see how you can sit through sermons week after week and not have it do damage to your soul, spirit, psychology, whatever you want to call it. I'd be sitting there getting angrier and angrier about the deceptive bullshit I was hearing from the pulpit and being disgusted at the bumpkins lapping it all up without question despite the fact they are adults. That would destroy me inside and make life literally not worth living.
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#28 mwc
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Posted 09 February 2016 - 11:03 PM
I found in business that church contacts are the worst contacts.
They always want a special church-pal deal. When they're not late they just up and flake but it's cool because church, right? They bad-mouth you to the church when you don't give kiss their unreasonable ass. And just on and on.
Church for business is not worth it...unless you hate your business and yourself.
mwc
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#29 Margee
'Madame Eve'
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This is my 'Please Forgive Me' letter - It is my testimony and I hope it helps someone....You'll have to copy and paste.
http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44259-please-forgive-me/
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Non-Believer
Posted 10 February 2016 - 08:23 AM
mwc, on 10 Feb 2016 - 12:03 AM, said:
I found in business that church contacts are the worst contacts.
They always want a special church-pal deal. When they're not late they just up and flake but it's cool because church, right? They bad-mouth you to the church when you don't give kiss their unreasonable ass. And just on and on.
Church for business is not worth it...unless you hate your business and yourself.
mwc
mwc, this was the case in my hair-styling business. I had tons of woman from the church that I did their hair. The church was huge and I was quite popular back in my younger days as a hairstylist. Everyone of those woman thought they were so special and never refused, ever, when I cut the price. (and they didn't tip me to make up for it either) Then, once I stared doing this, I was sunk and could never recover the money. There was the odd one who would say: ''Charge me the going price because God wants you to prosper''.
Today, I don't care who you are, I charge the 'going prices' except to those in the family and a couple of very close friends.
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#30 directionless
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 08:49 AM
Of course if @mwc and @Margee lost money through business dealings with church members, then the other church members gained money in those same dealings. I want to go to church so I can find business owners who will give me their products at deeply discounted "fellow-church-goer" prices wink.png
On a more serious note, what about becoming Freemasons or similar groups? I have heard that Freemasons try to help each other in business.
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#31 florduh
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 10:05 AM
The last place I would look for business contacts would be a church or perhaps a homeless shelter.
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#32 Daffodil
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 10:30 AM
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
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#33 directionless
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 11:05 AM
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Have you thought about an Episcopal church? They have very brief services - sing a few songs, recite some prayers, listen to a five minute sermon, communion. The whole thing is usually over in 30 minutes.
EDIT: Sorry, I am sure you guys chose the particular church you attend for good reasons. Sometimes I post things on forums because I am depressed or lonely, and what I post isn't always helpful to the discussion. I don't mean to be that way, but I am often...
Edited by directionless, 10 February 2016 - 11:15 AM.
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#34 florduh
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 11:29 AM
It took the gay community a long time to realize the mistake they had been making by hiding and trying to pass as straight in a predominantly straight society. I'm sorry for anyone who feels they must sacrifice their own identity just to seemingly make life easier. Integrity is the only thing nobody can take from you. You have to give it away.
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#35 Vigile
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:17 PM
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?
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#36 Vigile
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Nebbiolo, devushki and Kerouac.
Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:18 PM
florduh, on 10 Feb 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:
It took the gay community a long time to realize the mistake they had been making by hiding and trying to pass as straight in a predominantly straight society. I'm sorry for anyone who feels they must sacrifice their own identity just to seemingly make life easier. Integrity is the only thing nobody can take from you. You have to give it away.
Perfect analogy.
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#37 Lycorth
🐺 ᛗᚩᚾᚪ:ᛗᚩᚾᚪ 🐺
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :What gods?
Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:39 PM
This is very sad, indeed. Daffodil, I'm sorry you and your husband feel forced into wasting time and exposing your children to the dangerous ideology of Christianity. I truly hope for all your sakes that you all can move and be free somewhere else.
Religion will persist as long as freethinkers are forced to be silent (or are made to feel like they are).
I wish you all the best!
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#38 TrueFreedom
ƪ(˘⌣˘)┐ ƪ(˘⌣˘)ʃ ┌(˘⌣˘)ʃ
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 05:51 PM
Vigile, on 10 Feb 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?
I like this idea. There are plenty of people out there who only attend for holidays.
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#39 Daffodil
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:10 PM
TrueFreedom, on 10 Feb 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:
Vigile, on 10 Feb 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?
I like this idea. There are plenty of people out there who only attend for holidays.Believe it or not, that would be worse to me. My first inkling that Christians were hypocrites was in high school when I noticed how many would parade in on the holidays, dressed to the nines, and sit in the front row to show off. They never set foot in the church the rest of the year but still called themselves Christians. Now once a month I could do! 😉
Edited by Daffodil, 10 February 2016 - 06:10 PM.
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#40 rjn
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:54 PM
florduh, on 10 Feb 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:
It took the gay community a long time to realize the mistake they had been making by hiding and trying to pass as straight in a predominantly straight society. I'm sorry for anyone who feels they must sacrifice their own identity just to seemingly make life easier. Integrity is the only thing nobody can take from you. You have to give it away.
This. Best damn thing you've ever said. Not implying you usually do not say good things, but this was especially spot on.
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Why I Am Going Back To Church
Started by Daffodil , Feb 08 2016 01:53 PM
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#41 TrueFreedom
ƪ(˘⌣˘)┐ ƪ(˘⌣˘)ʃ ┌(˘⌣˘)ʃ
Moderator
3,639 posts
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no gods, no labels
Posted 10 February 2016 - 07:25 PM
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 7:10 PM, said:
TrueFreedom, on 10 Feb 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:
Vigile, on 10 Feb 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?I like this idea. There are plenty of people out there who only attend for holidays.Believe it or not, that would be worse to me. My first inkling that Christians were hypocrites was in high school when I noticed how many would parade in on the holidays, dressed to the nines, and sit in the front row to show off. They never set foot in the church the rest of the year but still called themselves Christians. Now once a month I could do!
But aren't you acting out what you despise by pretending?
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#42 Daffodil
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 10 February 2016 - 09:05 PM
TrueFreedom, on 10 Feb 2016 - 8:25 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 7:10 PM, said:
TrueFreedom, on 10 Feb 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:
Vigile, on 10 Feb 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?I like this idea. There are plenty of people out there who only attend for holidays.Believe it or not, that would be worse to me. My first inkling that Christians were hypocrites was in high school when I noticed how many would parade in on the holidays, dressed to the nines, and sit in the front row to show off. They never set foot in the church the rest of the year but still called themselves Christians. Now once a month I could do!
But aren't you acting out what you despise by pretending?
Yes, and I totally see the irony. Just not a good situation all around. Thanks for all the suggestions, though.
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#43 Daffodil
Apostate
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Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 10 February 2016 - 09:25 PM
florduh, on 10 Feb 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:
It took the gay community a long time to realize the mistake they had been making by hiding and trying to pass as straight in a predominantly straight society. I'm sorry for anyone who feels they must sacrifice their own identity just to seemingly make life easier. Integrity is the only thing nobody can take from you. You have to give it away.
As I said earlier, if you can order your life in such a way as to never ever compromise, then good for you. But when they can find excuses to fire you and then blacklist you from getting hired elsewhere, as happened to Neil Carter of Godless in Dixie, or prevent you from moving forward in your career, as we are concerned with here, it affects your ability to make a living and provide for your family. We're not that bad off, but don't want to end up there, either. And anyway, it was not a mistake for the gay community to hide and pass for straight - it was pure survival! Many were beaten and abused or even killed when others outed them. It wasn't about making life "easier" - it was about living another day. I'm glad that so many of them feel confident coming out, but the stakes are still very high for them and many are still closeted - especially in religious areas. I've read many many stories of young people from religiously strict families committing suicide after being completely disowned by the families they thought loved them when they came out. Calling it a "mistake" is a great disservice to how they have had to live.
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#44 mymistake
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 09:41 PM
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Ah, well to reach that goal you only have to attend once a month. And only the main service. Stick to the bare minimum. It doesn't take much to keep up appearances.
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#45 Bhim
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Posted 10 February 2016 - 11:03 PM
Hi Daffodil. Sorry you are in this position. On the one hand, if going to church truly will advance your husband's career, it's hard to take another course of action. And the end of the day it's how you make your living, and without a job, life is exceedingly difficult. On the other hand, you're living a lie. And then there is the most significant issue (in my mind anyway): the loss of your Sundays.
I can relate to this somewhat. My deconversion from flaming evangelical to returning Hindu took place over the course of about a week, and when it was all over I found myself in the untenable situation of living with oppressive Christian roommates who were unaware of my change of mind and heart. I'll admit it, I went to church every Sunday for an entire year just to keep the peace. Not only church, but Bible study on Tuesday nights and occasional social obligations with the Christians. I would say that the worst part of this was the utter loss of my Sundays. Going to sleep early on Saturday nights was torturous, because I was painfully aware of how potent an influence this false god Jesus had on my life. Waking up, shaking the sleep out of my eyes, and driving several miles to attend an activity I hated proved to be infinitely more difficult than Sunday mornings of old when my heart had been in it. I could scarcely stand going to church on Sunday morning, and for the rest of the day I resented the institution of evangelical Christianity for taking away so much time that I could have been spending on anything else. I hate church, and I will never set foot in one again save for occasions when it is repurposed as a polling place on election days.
Right now you are in a position where you haven't yet made social contacts, and there is no social structure necessitating that you go to church. Of course only you and your husband can decide what's best for you and your kids. Were I in your place, I could never do what you are doing now. But if you decide to continue the facade of attending a church, I truly wish you the best.
If you are still open to other options, here's one suggestion I would like to offer. Can you claim to belong to another religion? I have a friend, also a Hindu, who lives near Wichita. Like me he is intellectually an atheist, but if anyone were to ask him what church he goes to, he can simply dispel any suspicions by saying "I don't go to church, I'm Hindu." Depending on what the cultural climate is like, being branded an idolater may be worse than being unchurched, but apparently this isn't the case in at least one part of Kansas since my friend has never experienced any trouble. If you could claim to be Unitarian Universalist/Buddhist/whatever, perhaps this may ameliorate the stigma of not being part of a church? If this would not go over well in your part of the state, then please forgive my ignorance of the religious geography of Kansas.
Edited by Bhim, 10 February 2016 - 11:04 PM.
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#46 Vigile
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 01:37 AM
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 7:10 PM, said:
TrueFreedom, on 10 Feb 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:
Vigile, on 10 Feb 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?I like this idea. There are plenty of people out there who only attend for holidays.Believe it or not, that would be worse to me. My first inkling that Christians were hypocrites was in high school when I noticed how many would parade in on the holidays, dressed to the nines, and sit in the front row to show off. They never set foot in the church the rest of the year but still called themselves Christians. Now once a month I could do!
I still don't get then why you're going this. You said it's so you, or your husband can answer the question "where do you go to church"? If that's the case, who cares if you're a hypocrite? You're kind of a hypocrite anyway going to church simply to put on airs. :shrug:
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#47 mwc
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 03:12 PM
Vigile, on 11 Feb 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:
I still don't get then why you're going this. You said it's so you, or your husband can answer the question "where do you go to church"? If that's the case, who cares if you're a hypocrite? You're kind of a hypocrite anyway going to church simply to put on airs. Wendyshrug.gif
Unless she's not. Being a hypocrite about going back to church that is.
Wouldn't be the first person to go back couched in some story in an attempt to smooth the edges.
mwc
Edited by mwc, 11 February 2016 - 03:15 PM.
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#48 Tsathoggua
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 04:10 PM
mymistake, on 10 Feb 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Ah, well to reach that goal you only have to attend once a month. And only the main service. Stick to the bare minimum. It doesn't take much to keep up appearances.
I gotta admit, I didn't mind doing my own version of this for many years -- I would attend late service at my congregation (Church of Christ), enjoy singing along (I actually still enjoy hymns; you don't have to believe the message, if you ask me), and could put up with listening to a sermon that I didn't agree with. I could manage an hour per week at church without bursting into flames. With the proper attitude, it can actually be vaguely amusing. Then I would vacate the premises and drive off to a restaurant for lunch. Not too bad!
But I'm still glad that I stopped, eventually.
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#49 dichotomy
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 04:49 PM
That really sucks.
I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been said already, but could you perhaps be church hoppers and go along to one church for a while, then try out a different one and so on and so forth? That way you'd never have to get too involved and hopefully the children wouldn't make too many connections there?
Or one of you could go one week and the other stay at home with the kids and alternate?
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#50 Daffodil
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 11 February 2016 - 05:30 PM
Vigile, on 11 Feb 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 7:10 PM, said:
TrueFreedom, on 10 Feb 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:
Vigile, on 10 Feb 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 10 Feb 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:
It's less about getting contacts and more about being able to legitimately answer the question, "Where do you go to church?" If he says he doesn't go to church, he is looked down on.
Why not just show up once a year and claim that place as your own? Why torture yourselves every week when a white lie is sufficient?I like this idea. There are plenty of people out there who only attend for holidays.Believe it or not, that would be worse to me. My first inkling that Christians were hypocrites was in high school when I noticed how many would parade in on the holidays, dressed to the nines, and sit in the front row to show off. They never set foot in the church the rest of the year but still called themselves Christians. Now once a month I could do!
I still don't get then why you're going this. You said it's so you, or your husband can answer the question "where do you go to church"? If that's the case, who cares if you're a hypocrite? You're kind of a hypocrite anyway going to church simply to put on airs. :shrug:
I don't really see it as putting on airs. As I said earlier, we are going to answer questions honestly. My husband has never lied about the struggles he has with believing - he's just selective as to who he shares that with. People don't walk up to you in church and demand to know your level of commitment. If you're not in a small group, there's really no pressure to reveal yourself. So it's more of a social club with an annoying "lecture" at the beginning of the morning. I would even suggest that a sizable number of butts in pews treat it that very way. It's just the simple act of walking through those doors leads people to think we believe the same as them.
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#51 Daffodil
Apostate
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1,092 posts
Gender:Female
Location:Kansas - yes, we're screwed
Interests:Reading, knitting, walking, family
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 11 February 2016 - 05:33 PM
mwc, on 11 Feb 2016 - 4:12 PM, said:
Vigile, on 11 Feb 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:
I still don't get then why you're going this. You said it's so you, or your husband can answer the question "where do you go to church"? If that's the case, who cares if you're a hypocrite? You're kind of a hypocrite anyway going to church simply to put on airs. :shrug:
Unless she's not. Being a hypocrite about going back to church that is.
Wouldn't be the first person to go back couched in some story in an attempt to smooth the edges.
mwc
Nope, definitely not. If I were returning to that mindset, I would just stop posting altogether on this site.
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#52 Daffodil
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 05:41 PM
dichotomy, on 11 Feb 2016 - 5:49 PM, said:
That really sucks.
I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been said already, but could you perhaps be church hoppers and go along to one church for a while, then try out a different one and so on and so forth? That way you'd never have to get too involved and hopefully the children wouldn't make too many connections there?
Or one of you could go one week and the other stay at home with the kids and alternate?
I have no interest in checking out other churches. We're going to be Sunday morning bench warmers and that is all. I'm going to take my kids' experiences in Sunday school and use them for teachable moments. Hopefully they'll be even stronger freethinkers for it, able to analyze differing views more effectively. My daughter already thinks it's a load of hooey, so I think she'll be fine. My son is more gullible and really needs the extra help to discern reality from fairy stories.
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#53 mwc
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 05:42 PM
Daffodil, on 11 Feb 2016 - 6:33 PM, said:
Nope, definitely not. If I were returning to that mindset, I would just stop posting altogether on this site.
Okay. Just a guess given what others have done.
Personally, I wouldn't go to church for any sort of business or social reasons beyond the odd wedding or funeral but I figure it's your life and you should know how to run it. Why we're sitting here debating it for page after page is kind of beyond me. If it were me I would have just went and not opened it up to idiots like me to toss in my two cents ;) .
mwc
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#54 Lilith666
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 06:40 PM
Daffodil, in response to your post about survival: Yes, for gay people it was/is about that. But if we all ran and hid just to survive, where would anybody be? It takes standing up to jerks to make change happen.
I realize as I'm typing this that I may be a bit of a hypocrite, as I'm not out to my parents yet about being gay, and won't tell them until I'm on my own. That's a survival tactic. But I will tell them when I can afford it, as hiding a huge part of my life from them - censoring my Facebook posts and anything I might casually say - isn't worth it in the long term.
I was pissed until you explained that your and your husband's bosses may find reasons to fire you for not going to church. But could you bring a lawsuit against them? Help stop the cycle of discrimination and Jesus culture? When someone leads, other people tend to follow; most don't want to do anything until someone steps up.
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#55 Jeff
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:06 PM
Do not fucking tithe!
I'll write you a strongly worded PM if I hear that crap
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#56 Daffodil
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:13 PM
Jeff, on 11 Feb 2016 - 9:06 PM, said:
Do not fucking tithe!
I'll write you a strongly worded PM if I hear that crap
Haha, I already said we agreed we would not give a single penny.
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#57 Daffodil
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:29 PM
Lilith666, on 11 Feb 2016 - 7:40 PM, said:
Daffodil, in response to your post about survival: Yes, for gay people it was/is about that. But if we all ran and hid just to survive, where would anybody be? It takes standing up to jerks to make change happen.
I realize as I'm typing this that I may be a bit of a hypocrite, as I'm not out to my parents yet about being gay, and won't tell them until I'm on my own. That's a survival tactic. But I will tell them when I can afford it, as hiding a huge part of my life from them - censoring my Facebook posts and anything I might casually say - isn't worth it in the long term.
I was pissed until you explained that your and your husband's bosses may find reasons to fire you for not going to church. But could you bring a lawsuit against them? Help stop the cycle of discrimination and Jesus culture? When someone leads, other people tend to follow; most don't want to do anything until someone steps up.
This is really about how my husband feels and I'm just trying to justify my support of him. I really really really really do not want to do this, but marriage is all about give and take and compromise. He's not in danger of losing his job - that happened to Neil Carter. It's moving forward that could be thwarted. His job situation is more complicated than I'm letting on and I don't want to divulge too much. It goes from being just a job you get hired for to something far more political. He thinks he needs this connection to church people while I think, "Screw 'em! If they don't like it, they can go to the hell they believe in so strongly!" If this was a fundy church, I would refuse to go or let the kids go, but it is a really mild evangelical church, so I'm less bothered by it. I didn't realize this would get people so riled up! I'm beginning to regret having brought it up. I appreciate all the thoughts and suggestions, though.
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#58 dangitbobby83
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Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:50 PM
Depending on the UU church, it might not be that bad. My wife and I are going to one and over half the church is either atheist or agnostic. Though I do know one church that was mostly pagan too, so I suppose its the area we are in.
We don't go to any services that are overtly religious. The minister sends out the messages for the month and we choose to go to the ones that aren't that religious. So it might not be that bad for you, hopefully.
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#59 RenaissanceWoman
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 09:19 AM
You mentioned that he could retire in 2018. I would suggest that you go once a quarter = 4 times a year. That's about 10 times until he retires. As someone else said, it truly does not take much to keep up appearances.
Why exactly do the kids have to go along? Even if they are not getting anything from it theologically, they are making little friends. (Yes, we know they are not real "friends", but with kids, it feels like friends to them.) If you attend too much, they will be making little bonds. I am still dealing with sadness over broken bonds from my daughter's time in church, and it has been several years now for her. She occasionally mentions those kids, and that she misses them. On some level, she feels like we kind of jerked her around.
Playing a game with this for your husband's career is fine by me. I get it. But playing around with the kids is another matter. I'd say minimize minimize minimize. Attend as infrequently as possible (like I suggested, once a quarter), and/or find another place for the kids to hang out for two hours on the days you and hubby attend. Or have you attend alone one month, and hubby alone the next month, then all of you together one month. Keeping up appearances truly does not require too much.
Another idea: Instead of attending so many services, have hubby volunteer with the men's group social stuff, their annual cookout or whatever they do. (No men's bible studies, however!) That way he gets face time, looks like he is involved, makes connections, and no one will really notice or complain that you don't attend services because he is involved in other ways.
I don't know. Just trying to find ways to keep the kids out of it.
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#60 miamia
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 12:19 PM
You have one life and precious children. Don't live it on your knees in service to social pressure. Rebel, rebel, rebel. Your children may indeed come out alright even if they went to church twice a week for many years but it would be better for them to see you stand up and say no. Giving in is a detrimental habit. You must fight. Don't let anyone else put their mark on you or them. You will be glad you didn't.
The real issue for your children will be not whether or not they can think freely, and logically pick apart the teachings of the church, but how entangled they are in the social aspect of it. If they go, they may bond with the people. Regardless of what they know to be true, leaving that will be hard for them as well. because socializing and bonding gives you warm fuzzy feelings. And the things associated with the people they bond with will stick as well, it won't be erased after leaving. I guess some of that depends on their age, their personality, and how much you tell them. Are you going to tell them that you are only going for social reasons and that it's a good place to learn moral lessons, but not to be taken seriously? Will they understand? You are the window through which they see the world. Do you really want them learning about even seemingly innocuous untruths at a mild church while you are there with them, appearing, for all intents and purposes, to accept it and believe it too? How will you respond to their questions on your way home in the car? I'm sure you have considered all of this,as an intelligent and responsible adult, I'm just responding as the veritable devil on your shoulder, repeating it once more, possibly from a different perspective. Religion, however mild, is not innocuous. It is a drug of society. It can evolve into a terrible and monstrous influence. Regardless of the overwhelming social pressure to partake, you must say no. Drugs should be learned of in books, for educational purposes only. Do you want to bring your children to a building intended for the sole purpose of popping that pill and celebrating about it? They will watch everyone around them partake. That is an enormous amount of social pressure. Is it worth the consequences that may come? Do you want to be a slave to it, even after realizing that it's a trap? I understand that this is going to be a horribly unpopular comparison, but I am not stating it for shock value. I can only advise based on my experiences and understanding. In my experience, it is really that gravely serious.
Complacency is a fate worse than death. Rage against the dying of the light, and all that jazz.
In the end none of it will have mattered to anyone but you in this moment. Carpe diem, etc.
YOLO, as far as we know.
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Why I Am Going Back To Church
Started by Daffodil , Feb 08 2016 01:53 PM
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95 replies to this topic .
#61 Burny
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 12:41 PM
I simply don't understand why you would give up 1/7 of every week and a full HALF of every weekend wasting time warming a pew listening to what you know is pure poppycock just for the sake of a few dollars. And subjecting your kids to it.
I know that sounds harsh but you only get ONE LIFE. Don't waste another second of it on false teachers and pure fantasy!
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#62 Jeff
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 01:10 PM
Your plan is sound. Go a few times, don't pay, protect kids, get business, avoid headache of explaining beliefs ...
Now, what about Facebook? You're gonna get friends.
Please post all the stupid stuff here please!
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#63 Lilith666
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Truth and peace.
Posted 12 February 2016 - 02:03 PM
Daffodil: You may regret bringing it up, but as long as you keep posting, I'll keep arguing :) I'm that kind of a person.
You're going back to church because of how your husband feels? Why? His feelings are his problem, not yours. This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be a pain, I just don't understand why someone else's emotions should determine your behavior. Kind of like how you don't understand how that level-headed friend of yours in the other thread could get drawn back into Catholicism.
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#64 ficino
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 02:15 PM
Lilith666, on 12 Feb 2016 - 3:03 PM, said:
You're going back to church because of how your husband feels? Why? His feelings are his problem, not yours.
Hi Lilith, a thought: people do things for their partners' feelings, for the sake of the marriage/partnership. And sometimes it's fine. Sometimes the "things" turn out to be too many, or too little reciprocated. And then they need to tell the partner about this, possibly to say, "I can't do that anymore." But it doesn't sound as though Daffodil is at this "I can't do that anymore" stage yet.
Well, what do I know.
I feel for you guys.
I continued to go to mass years after ceasing to believe, though I had stopped going to confession.
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#65 Daffodil
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 02:18 PM
You guys are killing me! I'm trying to be supportive of my husband and I really don't want anymore arguments with him. I told him I will not go every single Sunday and we missed one Sunday because HE didn't get enough sleep the night before. One other problem is that the kids are already very attached to brother/sister friends that go there, though neither of them seem to get anything out of Sunday school when I ask them about it. We're already looking at issues arising as my daughter wants to attend an overnighter at the church with her class, which she did once before when we were still active, and she fussed when I told her no. She'll be moving to the middle school class next year and I'm more afraid of that and the discussions that will occur there than what she's getting now.
Ugh, this is getting into husband-wife territory and will shortly be way off topic. He's already getting progressively more frustrated with me because I don't completely support his career aspirations. He thinks he only has one route to take - the political one - and I see the moral/social compromises that entails and am unwilling to go there. He's an honest man, a man who says what he means and means what he says, which is one of the big reasons I married him, but he has always been able to see the gray areas better than me, a very black-and-white thinker. Joining fraternal organizations for the sole purpose of gaining contacts does not bother him, but for me it means "using" people and being disingenuous. He has always said I don't have to join with him (he knows he will never make a stiletto-heeled, dress-wearing, cocktail-serving, lunches-with-the-ladies type of political wife out of me), but he's finding other ways to draw me in. He even said I don't have to go to church with him, but that it would be really awkward if I didn't. I don't want to be the reason he doesn't move ahead, but I really don't want him to move ahead in the direction he is going. This is a marital issue at its heart and I'm looking at more struggles in the next two years.
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#66 Lilith666
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 02:28 PM
Okay... Just asking. Looks like we differ on the sacrifices we're willing to make. Hope/glad it works out for you. :)
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#67 florduh
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 03:25 PM
He sounds very manipulative. Politics would be the obvious choice.
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#68 Daffodil
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 04:38 PM
He's not very manipulative. That's what's so frustrating! As you move up the ladder, it becomes more and more political and you have to "play the game". He doesn't want to play the game, but he doesn't see any choice in the matter. He's always been a cop and does not see any other career option for himself, despite how much I encourage him to expand his horizons. If I had a high income career, we would have more options. He could just retire and find something else to do and we would live off my income. One of his friends did that and is very happy. Sadly, that is not an option for us. I'm an optimist and believe that we'll figure something out and make it work, but he just can't see it. He either stays where he is and has to work under people that he hates or he tries to move up himself. This is where we're at.
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#69 Orbit
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 04:59 PM
Not all of us have the privilege to live in an urban area. Small towns can decimate your career if you don't play the game. It's simply safer to be "out" in the city. I am asked about my religion all the time, and I reply "I was raised Presbyterian" which is true and that seems to satisfy them. To do otherwise means complete career derailment. Do what you have to do until 2018 when you can retire, then move to a place where you can be yourselves. Hang in there.
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#70 Daffodil
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 09:26 PM
Update: We had dinner alone together as the kids are spending the night at a friend's house. I brought the church/career thing up again and he was really relaxed about it, though he was a little more revealing about his reasons for going to church. I'm starting to think he was presenting it in a way he thought would be more palatable to me, but now he says that going to church is 20-30% career and 70-80% personal. He really wants church in his life and is not ready to let it go. He brought up the 5 Social Questions again and said that it is just expected in this country that you go to church and that's where all his good relationships are. I don't know what to think anymore. He even says he's not that concerned with his career and is ok with whereever it goes. WTH? I don't know what "relationships" he's even referring to because we don't socialize with any of them outside of church. I asked him if we lived in a place where church had no impact on his career, would he still want to go, and his response was, "What magical place is that?"
This doesn't really change anything I said earlier other than to make me realize that he is in a transitional time in his career, he's got mixed feelings about it, he feels stuck, and somehow church makes him feel a little better.
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#71 Orbit
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 10:33 PM
Daffodil, on 12 Feb 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:
Update: We had dinner alone together as the kids are spending the night at a friend's house. I brought the church/career thing up again and he was really relaxed about it, though he was a little more revealing about his reasons for going to church. I'm starting to think he was presenting it in a way he thought would be more palatable to me, but now he says that going to church is 20-30% career and 70-80% personal. He really wants church in his life and is not ready to let it go. He brought up the 5 Social Questions again and said that it is just expected in this country that you go to church and that's where all his good relationships are. I don't know what to think anymore. He even says he's not that concerned with his career and is ok with whereever it goes. WTH? I don't know what "relationships" he's even referring to because we don't socialize with any of them outside of church. I asked him if we lived in a place where church had no impact on his career, would he still want to go, and his response was, "What magical place is that?"
This doesn't really change anything I said earlier other than to make me realize that he is in a transitional time in his career, he's got mixed feelings about it, he feels stuck, and somehow church makes him feel a little better.
Your husband is being a dick. He's only 20% worried about his career? I'm 100% worried about mine. This isn't a real danger if he feels like that. Tell him he can go to church alone.
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#72 older
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Posted 12 February 2016 - 11:28 PM
I heartily disagree with Orbit's diagnosis. Hubby is facing retirement and a big change in life. A person's career is a big part of one's self-identity and there are all sorts of thoughts going through his mind right now. He's looking back wondering if what he did was of any use, and looking forward trying to figure out the next step. Having gone through this myself, I can attest that there are lots of things in his mind right now, the least of which might be some fears and uncertainty about what is going to happen next.
Edited by older, 12 February 2016 - 11:29 PM.
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#73 Daffodil
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Posted 13 February 2016 - 01:09 AM
Orbit, on 12 Feb 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:
Daffodil, on 12 Feb 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:
Update: We had dinner alone together as the kids are spending the night at a friend's house. I brought the church/career thing up again and he was really relaxed about it, though he was a little more revealing about his reasons for going to church. I'm starting to think he was presenting it in a way he thought would be more palatable to me, but now he says that going to church is 20-30% career and 70-80% personal. He really wants church in his life and is not ready to let it go. He brought up the 5 Social Questions again and said that it is just expected in this country that you go to church and that's where all his good relationships are. I don't know what to think anymore. He even says he's not that concerned with his career and is ok with whereever it goes. WTH? I don't know what "relationships" he's even referring to because we don't socialize with any of them outside of church. I asked him if we lived in a place where church had no impact on his career, would he still want to go, and his response was, "What magical place is that?"
This doesn't really change anything I said earlier other than to make me realize that he is in a transitional time in his career, he's got mixed feelings about it, he feels stuck, and somehow church makes him feel a little better.
Your husband is being a dick. He's only 20% worried about his career? I'm 100% worried about mine. This isn't a real danger if he feels like that. Tell him he can go to church alone.
Believe me, he is 100% concerned about his career. He just said that 20-30% of his reasons for going to church were career-related.
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#74 Daffodil
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 13 February 2016 - 01:14 AM
older, on 13 Feb 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:
I heartily disagree with Orbit's diagnosis. Hubby is facing retirement and a big change in life. A person's career is a big part of one's self-identity and there are all sorts of thoughts going through his mind right now. He's looking back wondering if what he did was of any use, and looking forward trying to figure out the next step. Having gone through this myself, I can attest that there are lots of things in his mind right now, the least of which might be some fears and uncertainty about what is going to happen next.
I think that's why he keeps wavering between "everything sucks" and "eh, it's ok". Drives me a little crazy at times, but I know he's under a lot of pressure as the sole breadwinner. I just wish church didn't have to be a factor.
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#75 Vigile
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Posted 13 February 2016 - 02:17 AM
You said he wants to get into politics. Does he want to be on the city council? Is he thinking of running for DA?
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#76 mymistake
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Posted 13 February 2016 - 08:18 AM
I feel for you Daffodil. At least you were finally able to get some honest communication. This is a difficult situation and it will be hard to find a compromise for everyone.
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#77 dichotomy
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Posted 13 February 2016 - 03:09 PM
If it is more for social reasons why can't he just go alone? Surely he can understand that you don't want to go and its unfair of him to ask you to just so he can feel better?
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#78 dangitbobby83
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Posted 16 February 2016 - 04:45 PM
dichotomy, on 13 Feb 2016 - 4:09 PM, said:
If it is more for social reasons why can't he just go alone? Surely he can understand that you don't want to go and its unfair of him to ask you to just so he can feel better?
My thoughts too.
If he really wants to go, then he can go. I don't see why this has to be some sort of compromise. Is it for "image"? Got to have that perfect unified family?
It just seems to me that career is an excuse to go. I don't know anyone who's career would be tanked by not going to church, as "where do you go to church" can easily be answered with "we study faith at home". Or he can occasionally go to a church and claim it. "Oh I go to XYZ from time to time."
If he loses a job because of "no church", that sounds like grounds for a discrimination lawsuit.
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#79 mwc
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Posted 16 February 2016 - 07:49 PM
Don't go back to church until they do a sequel. They've ran this show into the ground.
mwc
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#80 Daffodil
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Posted 17 February 2016 - 12:36 PM
Jeff requested reports on the stupid stuff they do. So far, we have sung songs about how we are as low as dirt and thoroughly unworthy of life. Only god's love and mercy saves us. Apparently we are incapable of anything good, according to the songs. The pastor told us how important it was to find your calling and serve within the church one Sunday, then started the guilt trip on giving to the next million dollar building expansion kick. I don't know how long I'll be able to do this.
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Why I Am Going Back To Church
Started by Daffodil , Feb 08 2016 01:53 PM
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#81 Lilith666
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Posted 17 February 2016 - 04:36 PM
Personally, I don't think it sounds like a healthy environment, especially for someone who has been through the self-flagellation and expectations of giving the church money. How long ago did you quit, Daffodil?
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#82 Daffodil
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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:53 PM
Lilith666, on 17 Feb 2016 - 5:36 PM, said:
Personally, I don't think it sounds like a healthy environment, especially for someone who has been through the self-flagellation and expectations of giving the church money. How long ago did you quit, Daffodil?
We quit going in December of 2014, so just over a year. I was in a bad mood this past Sunday, so that didn't help. I ran into the leader of a women's group I had been involved in a couple years ago and she was all, "I've been thinking about you! So good to see you again! How are things going? Are you going to the Women's Retreat?" Wanted to say oh, HELL no, but knew that wouldn't be appropriate. Checked my mail and read a blog post during the sermon (we had to sit at the back this time (yay!)) so it wasn't a total time waster. ;)
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#83 Lilith666
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Truth and peace.
Posted 17 February 2016 - 10:15 PM
I meant, how long ago did you quit Christianity? I was thinking the church messages affect people differently depending on how long they have been out of the cult.
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#84 Daffodil
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Posted 17 February 2016 - 10:38 PM
Lilith666, on 17 Feb 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:
I meant, how long ago did you quit Christianity? I was thinking the church messages affect people differently depending on how long they have been out of the cult.
It was a long slow process of deconversion, but the light bulb finally blazed on about two years ago. I'm thoroughly deconverted. I didn't even stop at agnosticism on the way. What's ironic is that it was my husband's doubts that opened the door for me to really examine my own doubts without fear. Now he wants to keep a tie of sorts and I am just through with it.
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#85 dangitbobby83
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Posted 17 February 2016 - 11:41 PM
If this is 60 or 70% social reasons, as he told you earlier...then why can't he just join a club or something? Pick up a hobby, go fishing with a bunch of guys or something...more productive and uplifting than every Sunday of "we are worthless, oh lawd."
Sounds like to me his doubts aren't nearly as strong. In fact, I would say he's drifting back into christian fantasy land. I can't imagine an agnostic/atheist wanting to go to church and hear the message you reported on, unless they had a damn good reason - and a social reason wouldn't be that good, at least for me.
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#86 Daffodil
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Posted 18 February 2016 - 10:27 AM
dangitbobby83, on 18 Feb 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:
If this is 60 or 70% social reasons, as he told you earlier...then why can't he just join a club or something? Pick up a hobby, go fishing with a bunch of guys or something...more productive and uplifting than every Sunday of "we are worthless, oh lawd."
Sounds like to me his doubts aren't nearly as strong. In fact, I would say he's drifting back into christian fantasy land. I can't imagine an agnostic/atheist wanting to go to church and hear the message you reported on, unless they had a damn good reason - and a social reason wouldn't be that good, at least for me.
I'm not sure he even understands what is going on in his head with this. He explained a long time ago that it goes back to his childhood. He was raised by two people who had no use for church or church people - one just didn't care and the other had deep-seated animosity toward Christians. They never went to church in a part of the country where everyone goes to church, and he watched all his friends and neighbors leave every Sunday morning while they stayed home. He felt like his family was abnormal and he wanted desperately to be "normal". He still claims to be agnostic, but insists that there are good messages in Christianity about how to treat others and that only Christians ask questions about how your relationship with your kids is going. If I could find a strong humanist or atheist group in our area to expose him to, I would do it in a heartbeat, but it just doesn't exist here unless it's tied in to the university or something. Every time he tries to pull the morality argument on me, I remind him that Christianity doesn't teach anything that one can't learn elsewhere and is not the originator of morality. It usually comes up in relation to raising moral kids and I am quick to give the humanist response to any Christian argument he presents. Now that I think about it, he may be afraid the kids will grow up feeling the way he did if we stop going to church.
I don't know. We can try to analyze him till our heads explode, but that won't change the situation. I really appreciate all your thoughts on this. I'm so glad I have a place to talk about this stuff because it would be very isolating without you guys. Thanks!
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#87 older
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Posted 18 February 2016 - 09:18 PM
In a conversation with someone once about his failing marriage, a friend of mine said his counselor told him that when things looked bad, to ask himself, "What is the worst thing that could happen because of this?" An honest answer often reveals that the situation, although difficult, is survivable.
Edited by older, 18 February 2016 - 09:18 PM.
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#88 Aiyana
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Posted 19 February 2016 - 09:43 AM
Daffodil, I understand. You're doing what you feel like you need to do in your life at this particular time. Who knows, it might just blow its course here soon.
I think it's hard for anyone who doesn't live in the Bible Belt to understand life in the Bible Belt. I'm in liberal Seattle, and I still feel pressured not to talk harshly about Christianity on my personal facebook or Pinterest, because of how it could affect my kids. My kids are friends with kids who come from Christian families (I'm not talking about old church people, IDGAF what they think... I'm talking about new friends that they've made at school), and I don't want to put an image out there of myself that would make the mamas hesitate to let their kids hang out with my kids. And this is in SEATTLE. I can only imagine what it's like for you down there.
You're doing your best at this time and in your culture. I get it.
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#89 florduh
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Posted 19 February 2016 - 09:49 AM
I guess society will never be pushed to accept nonbelievers due to our invisibility and fear. I'm glad at least the gays had the balls to stand up, be counted and change things. Comfort and complacency is the enemy of progress.
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#90 Aiyana
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Posted 19 February 2016 - 09:57 AM
I think Daffodil and I both have plenty of balls. We both publicly came out to the world. Not saying that those who choose NOT to come out don't have balls. I just think there's a lot of judgment toward her on this thread, which sucks, because she's just here to vent about it. It's not like she likes it. Plus, no one even knows, this might be a temporary thing that even the husband after six months is like "Never mind, fuck this." But right now, she's choosing to elevate a loved one above all of the "being a personal freedom fighter" stuff, and that's okay. They are both worthy endeavors. I get the frustration, though, at feeling like there's one less "soldier" so to speak. But I think we also need to be gentle with one another here. I even saw an almost-accusation on this thread that she's drifting back into belief, and another comment where her husband was called a dick. Not gentle.
Edited by Aiyana, 19 February 2016 - 09:59 AM.
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#91 florduh
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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:39 AM
I just could never find a reasonable defense for pretending to be someone I'm not. I could have saved a lot of arguments with my dad if I had lied, but I loved and respected both of us too much to be dishonest. I took a little crap from my last boss when I said I didn't go to a church because I didn't believe any of that stuff. Then another atheist at work approached me, saying he thought he was the only one and he was relieved and encouraged when he found out about me. Maintaining a false peace at the expense of my integrity just isn't my thing. Sorry.
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#92 Vigile
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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:27 AM
I'm on the fence with this one. I'm far too rebellious to not be compelled to buck the crowd and be up front with my beliefs. But at the same time, even gays still stay closeted or move to bigger cities if they are from small southern towns. I met quite of a few of them in DC. Having never lived, or even really been in a small southern town, I guess it's hard to understand.
In Boise, where I grew up, it's been common since I was in HS to see a plethora of Darwin Fish and while we had our share of religious nuts, at times, it was they, not the atheists, who were on the defense. And, of course, in Europe or DC where I've also lived, truly no one gives a shit.
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#93 readyforchange
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Posted 20 February 2016 - 12:29 PM
Aiyana, on 19 Feb 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:
Daffodil, I understand. You're doing what you feel like you need to do in your life at this particular time. Who knows, it might just blow its course here soon.
I think it's hard for anyone who doesn't live in the Bible Belt to understand life in the Bible Belt. I'm in liberal Seattle, and I still feel pressured not to talk harshly about Christianity on my personal facebook or Pinterest, because of how it could affect my kids. My kids are friends with kids who come from Christian families (I'm not talking about old church people, IDGAF what they think... I'm talking about new friends that they've made at school), and I don't want to put an image out there of myself that would make the mamas hesitate to let their kids hang out with my kids. And this is in SEATTLE. I can only imagine what it's like for you down there.
You're doing your best at this time and in your culture. I get it.
I agree. In the Bible Belt, and especially in the more rural areas, the church is the institution that many people's social lives are constructed around. Many also have strong family connections and emotional ties to their church, and also may have never really been around or interacted with people of different faiths or with people who are vocal about their non-belief.
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#94 older
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Posted 20 February 2016 - 07:18 PM
Andy Borowitz: "Remember, no matter what tough times you're going through, at least Ted Cruz isn't in the same room talking to you right now."
https://www.facebook...154261714310681
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#95 Daffodil
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Posted 28 February 2016 - 01:21 PM
Second Sunday in a row that we missed church today. :) Hubby admitted he likes the "idea" of going to church more than actually going to church, lol! We'll see what happens!
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#96 older
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Posted 28 February 2016 - 06:48 PM
Woo hoo! Perhaps you'll end up as X2 Christians. (X2 = going to church twice a year: Christmas and Easter.)
Another thought..... tapering it off slowly. Every two weeks for two months, then every three weeks, for a while, etc. In time no one will notice that you aren't there regularly, and by the summer you'll be off the hook. You can still claim membership like all the other X2 Christians do.
Edited by older, 28 February 2016 - 06:50 PM.
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Who Deserves To Be In Heaven?
Started by SerenelyBlue , Feb 07 2016 10:03 AM
This topic is locked This topic is locked
17 replies to this topic .
#1 SerenelyBlue
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 10:03 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have just made a simple and true discovery. The person that is a good person without religion is a better person than the one that would not have been a good person had it not been for the threat of punishment and the promise of reward.
My logic tells me that an infinitely intelligent entity would prefer goodness for goodness sake.
What do you think?
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#2 disillusioned
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 10:27 AM
"There is none good but one, that is, God".
This is the flaw in your reasoning. The notion of heaven and hell is derived from the belief that humanity is fundamentally flawed and deserving of hell. It is not possible for us to deserve heaven. We can only attain it by grace.
Of course, the heaven and hell doctrine is not actually true, and so you're right: it's better to be good for it's own sake than to do it because we are afraid. But this only makes sense on the view that the Christian heaven and hell do not exist. If they do--if Christianity is true--then it is not possible for us to be good. We are fallen, and in need of salvation by grace, through faith.
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#3 SerenelyBlue
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 10:43 AM
disillusioned, on 07 Feb 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:
"There is none good but one, that is, God".
This is the flaw in your reasoning. The notion of heaven and hell is derived from the belief that humanity is fundamentally flawed and deserving of hell. It is not possible for us to deserve heaven. We can only attain it by grace.
Of course, the heaven and hell doctrine is not actually true, and so you're right: it's better to be good for it's own sake than to do it because we are afraid. But this only makes sense on the view that the Christian heaven and hell do not exist. If they do--if Christianity is true--then it is not possible for us to be good. We are fallen, and in need of salvation by grace, through faith.
Hmm... I think this is one good example of a serious defect in the Bible. Any intelligent entity would know that it is outrageous to have the good boiling in the depths of Hell, while the ones that came in with a free, do as you please and say these words, pass get to sit up there with God on the throne.
Not able to be good? My dog is able to be good. My physiology and origins are similar to my dog. I can be good.
I think this is another flaw of Christianity: They don't allow you to think unhampered about whether or not teaching makes sense. If we say today that women may preach and it is ok to be gay, what stops us from making alterations in our understanding of other verses in the Bible? If one can change, all can change. That is the beauty and the flaw of liberal Christianity.
Edited by SerenelyBlue, 07 February 2016 - 12:17 PM.
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#4 disillusioned
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:40 PM
SerenelyBlue, on 07 Feb 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:
Hmm... I think this is one good example of a serious defect in the Bible. Any intelligent entity would know that it is outrageous to have the good boiling in the depths of Hell, while the ones that came in with a free, do as you please and say these words, pass get to sit up there with God on the throne.
Not able to be good? My dog is able to be good. My physiology and origins are similar to my dog. I can be good.
I think this is another flaw of Christianity: They don't allow you to think unhampered about whether or not teaching makes sense. If we say today that women may preach and it is ok to be gay, what stops us from making alterations in our understanding of other verses in the Bible? If one can change, all can change. That is the beauty and the flaw of liberal Christianity.
The bolded is a flat contradiction of Christian teaching. God alone is good. We have not met his standard. We are fallen. We are sinful. We are not good, and we cannot be good. When you say that your dog is good, and that you can be good you are using a secular definition of the word good. But if Christianity is true, then your understanding of good is not what counts: only God's opinion matters.
Now, this leaves us with the insurmountable problem of determining how we can possibly know God's opinions, but that is another matter. As you say, if some the Bible requires interpretation and a "modern" understanding, then where do we draw the line? This type of reasoning, in my opinion, can be used to form some of the most powerful arguments against Christianity.
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#5 SerenelyBlue
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:42 PM
Why does God use words that can be misunderstood? Anyhow, the Bible has many errors and contradictions. What's to say this one isn't an error. And Jesus is God isn't he. And he said this...
I know Paul also said that not one is good.
The Bible is wrong and unfair according to my humble standards. I dare to disagree and to use my "God given" brain. Surely if God made my brain, he should not be angry if I come up with different conclusions.
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#6 rjn
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 02:01 PM
I don't buy that "Well, God's definitions are different from ours"-crap. We can only relate to things on a human level, anything beyond it is useless.
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#7 qadeshet
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:30 PM
The Christian Heaven is actually horrifying to me. There is no marriage or sex, no Free Will, no hunger or thirst, so no food or drink. Just an eternity of singing hymns, telling "god" how great he is. No thanks. No one deserves such a fate.
Matthew 22:
22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Skeptic'snnotated Bible
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#8 disillusioned
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 04:40 PM
rjn, on 07 Feb 2016 - 3:01 PM, said:
I don't buy that "Well, God's definitions are different from ours"-crap. We can only relate to things on a human level, anything beyond it is useless.
That's because you're not a Christian.
I agree with you, by the way. But I think that questions like the one in the OP largely miss the point. They are based on the premise that the Christian heaven and hell exist. If that is true, then Christianity is true, and God's definitions are different than ours. It boots nothing to discuss these questions from a secular perspective: from the outside, there is no reason to believe in heaven or hell, and from the inside, the secular perspective is incorrect. Better simply to say that no one has ever had any reason to think that heaven and hell exist and leave it at that.
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#9 mymistake
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 08:36 PM
Nobody deserves complete infinite anything. Such ideals cannot exist in the real world and certainly can't be earned in our realistic life.
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#10 Jedah
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Posted 07 February 2016 - 09:11 PM
infinite reward for finite good deeds is nonsense for the same reason infinite punishment for finite sins is nonsense.
If there is an afterlife, I would find it more interesting if it wasn't heaven.
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#11 amateur
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Posted 08 February 2016 - 04:13 PM
"God" didn't say anything about heaven because god doesn't exist. The people who wrote the bible made up the concept of heaven. The various people and groups who wrote the bible also put in what they wanted for varying reasons, so there is not one consistent, logical, non-contradictory theme throughout the bible.
I also agree with qadeshet, that the concept of heaven we seem to get from the bible sounds horrible. Eternity is unimaginable to us, as people who live surrounded by births and deaths, beginnings and ends. But, yes, what exactly are we to DO in heaven if not live in a way we know with relationships, marriages, doing SOMETHING (working, hobbies, relaxing)? If we are only to spend eternity praising god, it does sound like an endless punishment.
The people and groups who wrote the bible did not think that through very well. I think they were just going for the maximum in reward/punishment in order to control people.
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#12 RedStar
Skeptic
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 09 February 2016 - 05:39 AM
Between being a personality devoid worship robot and not existing in any form of consciousness at all I'd definitely choose the latter. I think it would be tedious existing for eternity eventually.
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#13 TheRedneckProfessor
To be, rather than to seem.
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Posted 14 February 2016 - 06:25 AM
god's ways are not our ways; and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Stop trying to understand and just... believe!!!!!
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#14 Bhim
Jesus-hating idol worshiper
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Posted 15 February 2016 - 07:04 PM
Jedah, on 07 Feb 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:
infinite reward for finite good deeds is nonsense for the same reason infinite punishment for finite sins is nonsense.
If there is an afterlife, I would find it more interesting if it wasn't heaven.
Agreed, and this is one of the serious moral failings of Christianity. If all sin is equally meritorious of infinite punishment, then stealing a paperclip is on equal moral ground as genocide. Jesus effectively trivializes sin and makes it impossible to justly punish anyone for anything.
I would add that Jesus is the only individual I know of who ever devised a punishment that even Adolf Hitler doesn't deserve. No one deserves eternal punishment for finite wrongdoing.
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#15 RedStar
Skeptic
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No
Posted 16 February 2016 - 05:27 AM
I always think about how a god that's supposed to be completely good could even think up a concept as evil as hell in the first place. Not just that, but he is supposed to have created evil, all evil. How is sin supposed to be infinite and how could anyone or anything be evil enough to think anybody deserves eternal torture? You don't find xianity convincing? Well too bad for you, eternal torture is what you'll get and what you'll deserve. It's beyond disgusting that anyone thinks that premise is ok or justifiable in any way.
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#16 dangitbobby83
Strong Minded
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :NO thank "God" :D
Posted 16 February 2016 - 04:32 PM
Jedah, on 07 Feb 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:
If there is an afterlife, I would find it more interesting if it wasn't heaven.
Valhalla would be badass. Even Islam's heaven would be far more interesting, considering the all the sex you would be having. (Sexist and misogynic, yes, but still more interesting than just singing god's praises forever)
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#17 dichotomy
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Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Non yesterday, non today, non tomorrow.
Posted 27 February 2016 - 07:36 PM
For me this all hinges on the premise that there is such a thing as "goodness". I'm not really convinced there is.
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#18 SerenelyBlue
Thinker
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148 posts
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Interests:I like reading, kayaking, photography and more...
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 28 February 2016 - 02:05 PM
dichotomy, on 27 Feb 2016 - 8:36 PM, said:
For me this all hinges on the premise that there is such a thing as "goodness". I'm not really convinced there is.
What do call it when someone displays altruism, when he thinks himself into other person's shoes, when he respects people and animals and lives a decent life adopting a personal code of decency.
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http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/71484-who-deserves-to-be-in-heaven/#.Vv1uCP_mo5s
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