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My "best" friend (active JW) has just died
by Terry 2 hours ago 14 Replies latest 7 minutes ago   jw friends
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Terry
Terry 2 hours ago

Johnny Santa Cruz and I met around 1959 at a movie theater in Fort Worth, Texas.
The purpose of that meeting was to create a Fanclub for horror movie director William Castle. A week or so later, Johnny stopped me as I was walking home from elementary school.
"Hey--I think I know you. Weren't you at the William Castle Fanclub thing?"
And in that encounter, my entire life was fated to change forever.
____________
I soon discovered, Johnny Santa Cruz was a Jehovah's Witness and the continuity of our friendship, I would also discover, hinged upon his converting me.
This process took him about 4 years before I was baptized.
Because of my direct connection to Johnny and his family, I went to Federal prison as a conscientious objector and afterward married his sister.
My 1st three children are his sister's children.
___________
Johnny and I were best friends. He was my FIRST friend of any consequence.
His influence was boundless. He was larger than life in many ways.
He was six feet three inches tall and ponderous! He had one eye, red hair, freckles and large flat feet.
The laugh of his could fill a stadium. We kept each other laughing a lot in those early years. His personality was irrepressible. By imitating his aggressive nature, I learned to emerge from my super-shy backwardness socially. I thank him for that.
But, he also broke my heart eventually. Maybe we broke each others' hearts.
_________________
I did not remain Jehovah's Witness. His sister and I divorced and she died in a car wreck. We stayed in touch in violation of JW shunning policies.
When I moved back to Ft.Worth from California and he moved back from Corpus Christi, the first thing he did was contact me and invite me (although I was disfellowshipped) to a family reunion.
Later, he would sneak off and visit me at least once each week at my place of employment and we'd sit and talk for hours. . . usually arguing over JW's being False Prophets.
He admitted many (if not all) of the Watchtower failures, but shrugged them off. He admitted "most of the Elders are idiots" but shrugged that off too.
"I know how to play the game." He once told me, and he meant he saw through the pretentious rules and set his own course carefully within bounds.
One of his DF'd kids discovered he had been visiting be regularly. His son saw my postings and figured out the "Johnny" I was talking about was his dad.
When he confronted his father, Johnny lied and said that I was just a lying Apostate trying to get him in trouble!
He never admitted otherwise, but many people knew about it and did not report him. He had a golden bubble of protection around him. He was the male in the Santa Cruz family and was the little Prince. The daughters didn't seem to count for as much. I think most of them would tell you that.
After Johnny was 'outed' and he cut me dead, I never heard from him again. When I wrote my book, I Wept by the Rivers of Babylon, much of that book was devoted to Johnny. As far as I know, he never read it.
I have asked to be invited to the funeral. I'm sure they'll tell me to go pound sand--but that would not be right and they know it.
I'm shocked at his death--but, not surprised.
His health was lousy. He weighed over 300 pounds and was the sort of person who sneaked the wrong foods behind his wife's back.
He sneaked around a lot as a JW and saw movies that would shock the Elders if they knew. He went his own way.
I am still processing this.
He is, as I said, a large part of my life story. It hurts to know we never got to have one last conversation.
It hurts he put out that I had lied about he and I meeting all the time.
I do understand, but I hate that I have to understand.
This will take a long time to truly get over.
I loved you, Johnny. I really really loved you.
Goodbye
 +2 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 2 hours ago

My condolences
RIP Johnny
 
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 2 hours ago
My condolences Terry.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

Sad and unfortunate story , how did you find out of his death ?

 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 hours ago
nice story, shame the majority of them are nothing like your buddy
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein an hour ago

I think its a shame that a religion has that kind of control over people and when its realized this same religion was constructed upon ignorance, man made opportunistic corruption, lies, fear and deliberate deceptions , it becomes even more infuriating.

 
compound complex
compound complex an hour ago

I've "known" Johnny for years, Terry, through your bringing him to life for us.
I'm so very sorry; we were never supposed to grow old and die . . .
CoCo
 
LettMorrisSplaneit
LettMorrisSplaneit an hour ago
I'm sorry for your loss.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours an hour ago

Sorry Terry.
DY
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 43 minutes ago
Condolences Terry ....
 

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My "best" friend (active JW) has just died
by Terry 2 hours ago 14 Replies latest 8 minutes ago   jw friends
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Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 35 minutes ago
Terry, now I like you because of your love of William Castle movies.
 
dbq407
dbq407 31 minutes ago
sorry of to hear of your loss. I don't think you need to be invited to the funeral though, you should just go. it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, you need your own closure on the matter.
 
steve2
steve2 23 minutes ago

So sorry about your loss Terry.  Ironical to think you both forged the friendship in the service of the organization but subsequently Johnny was caring enough to stay in touch even after you were disfellowshipped. He is a rare breed of friend.
 
ToesUp
ToesUp 11 minutes ago

So sorry for you loss Terry. That is sad story.
It sickens me that they say the JW cult does not destroy families and relationships.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 8 minutes ago

Give respect to good memories where they should be deserved.
I think going to a JW funeral with vindictive cold eyes placed toward you would ruin those personal good memories.
 

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Topic Summary
johnny santa cruz and i met around 1959 at a movie theater in fort worth, texas.. the purpose of that meeting was to create a fanclub for horror movie director william castle.
a week or so later, johnny stopped me as i was walking home from elementary school.. "hey--i think i know you.
weren't you at the william castle fanclub thing?".



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Pattytheperfect1
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by Pattytheperfect1 2 years ago



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Religion, a part of the American way of Life.
by Gorbatchov 12 hours ago 4 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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Gorbatchov
Gorbatchov 12 hours ago

Found this picture on the twitter account and it makes a wider perspective to me.
The JW religion is so part of the American way of Life, just like the other religions in the US.
In the JW growth rate country's there is a market for this "better" life. The religion makes it possible.
Western Europe had that marketing mix need after World War 2 and maybe a part of the cold war.
See the picture, and you know, the similarities with the JW religion, the change will be in details and not fundamental.
Gorby



 
smiddy
smiddy 12 hours ago

Thank`s Gorby,
The Jehovah`s Witness religion is just another religion started started in America around the same times as the Christadelphians , the Christian Scientists ,Seventh day Adventists ,2nd Adventists, Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints,Assembly Of God ,? ,etc,etc. Some have been more successful than others however ,...
The bottom line is it`s just another American scam religion.of that era. to make money .$$$$$$
What financial benefit has resulted from the rank and file of any of these members ?..........ZILCH.
What financial advantage has resulted from the said religious organizations ? .....$$$$$$$$ .... in most cases Billions.of $$$
I rest my case
smiddy
 +2 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 12 hours ago

For decades sociologists talked about the United States as being the exception among developed nations in that it hadn't become secular like Europe, Australia and Canada. In recent years however the United States has begun to secularise also: fewer attend church, or identify with a faith group, and more describe themselves as irreligious.
Some have suggested this trend began around 1990 and accelerated after 9/11 offering the following explanation. During the Cold War, when Russia was the enemy, America defined itself as being opposed to "Godless communism". American commitment to faith was thus connected with its opposition to the Soviet Union. When the Soviet system collapsed in 1990, so did one pillar which helped support American commitment to faith, their opposition to "Godless communism". Then when the terror attacks occurred in 2001 the new enemy was defined as "religious fundamentalists". This further weakened support for religion of any kind in America, as the enemy was now defined as religious rather than atheist.
All of this is on top of the regular processes of modernisation which tend to weaken the social power of religion.
 +2 / -0
shepherdless
shepherdless 10 hours ago

Further to what SBF says, quoting from page 3 of the Pew Report of 12 May 2015:
[T]he percentage of adults (ages 18 and older) who describe themselves as Christians has dropped by nearly eight percentage points in just seven years, from 78.4% in... 2007 to 70.6% in 2014.



So in 7 years, the number of Christians in USA dropped by 10%. It is such a major change, that I am surprised more people haven't mentioned it. If that rate were to continue, USA will have a majority of unbelievers in around 20 years.
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 8 hours ago

SBF:
Very interesting. I also wonder if the proliferation of readily available information, knowledge and discourse made available by the internet hasn't contributed to the accelerated decrease in religious following. Another contributing factor may be more people live in cities than ever before, where philosophy, science, politics and sociology are staples of the average discussion. I know that in countries where there is either no internet or regulated Internet, religion is often still the mainstay of the vast majority. Yet even in those countries it's in cities where one is most likely to find those denouncing religious ideology.
 +1 / -0

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Have you ever experience suprise by an Elder that actually showed compassion and reasoning in a judicial committee?
by adjusted knowledge 15 hours ago 1 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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adjusted knowledge
adjusted knowledge 15 hours ago

Some 25 years ago when I was an active teenager in the congregation there was this Elder's teenage son that acted out sexually at a young age. The elder's son I believe was molested over a short period of time at a very young age by another Elder whose wife was dying of cancer. The reason why I suspect it is because this Elder was caught and discipline "privately" for touching the breast of a 15 year girl in our congregation. In addition he was "counseled" for other acts but he never loss his title as Elder, and this was in the 80's.This young kid would spend the night at this elder's house to keep him company while his wife was dying. Now keep in mind this elder's children were grown adults. I'm not sure why a 9 year old that wasn't related to him needed to spend nights with him. Sounded creepy to me.

Anyway this Elder's son would touch both boys and girls in different age groups. He never got disfellowshiped as he was an Elder's child. He was always privately reproved. One incident happened when he was 14 and my younger brother was 15. They both engaged in oral sex. This elder's son would constantly do stuff like this with boys and girls and then tell on himself. So my father was upset and even blamed my brother and me because we didn't spend enough time with my younger brother. I'm not really sure how he equates me not playing basketball or whatever, with my brother getting a bj from another boy but that was my father's thinking. I guess you do gay stuff if you're excluded by siblings.

So my brother who wasn't and never was baptized and this elder's son were brought before a judicial committee. On the committee was this very cranky sour puss Elder. The type that would rant and rave on the podium about young ones not getting baptized are going to die in Armageddon. He was dogmatic and always ranting and raving about issues in the congregation. He was never married, had no children, and was a witness for nearly 70 years. I'm sure he was a little bitter paradise wasn't here yet.
However, this elder was very calm and explained to my father and mother that young boys sometimes experiment and that this was natural. He of course condemned the actions and read some scriptures. He was harder on the elder's son because of his past and both loss some privileges. My brother only gave bible reading talks which he was happy he didn't have to do. But my mother and father told me this Elder was very understanding and was not dogmatic. He was completely different in that private setting than he was in a public forum addressing the entire congregation.

 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 12 hours ago
What the fuck is a is a 9 year old boy doing in that house at all? What are the parents even thinking that that is a good idea? That is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard.
 

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Awww, you "love and miss us"? Really? Then why ignore us?
by stuckinarut2 17 hours ago 12 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw experiences
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 17 hours ago

So we received the obligatory "shoved under the door" memorial invitation and "return to Jehovah" brochure the other week. It also had a hand written note from two elders saying "we love and miss you" etc...
So why then when one of them saw us at the grocery store, did he pretend to not see us and then ignore and quickly walk away?
The sincerity is wonderful....
Dont get me wrong, we dont want any attention from them, but it's an interesting observation anyway....
 +13 / -0
talesin
talesin 16 hours ago

For me, that expression was 'the last straw' in having family ties. Said at my grandfather's visitation at the funeral home, and I was in grief and so put off by the phoniness of it all. I replied "Oh, really? My number is in the book."
That was the last time I saw most of my rellies. And good riddance. xx
 +3 / -0
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 16 hours ago

Yes, my mother pulled the same ... "so and so really misses you and would love to see you"! I offered to meet them for coffee as long as the topic was religion was off the table. Funny thing ... they don't miss me that much now.
 +9 / -0
Khaleesi
Khaleesi 16 hours ago
Yup got that too at mtg this weekend after not be in there for weeks, many people approached me "aw we missed you so much, i was going to text you".... oh "was" ??? Oh that means you didn't & why do you have to see me st mtg to tell me, you have my ###!!!".... i thought about saying it but held my tongue!!!
 +4 / -0
C0ntr013r
C0ntr013r 15 hours ago

The instructions are clear:

Also, please follow closely the instructions in the May 23, 2010, letter to all bodies of elders as you endeavor to invite inactive ones to the Memorial and special talk. As you meet with them, please convey the love and concern of the Governing Body and the local congregation. (1 Thess. 2:7, 8) Offer to help with transportation or to provide any other practical assistance so that they can be in attendance. As noted above, please ensure that they have received a personal copy of the Return to Jehovah brochure. A modest supply of the brochure should be kept on hand (though not displayed) at public witnessing locations for the benefit of inactive ones
This year, in addition to visiting inactive ones, you should make a special effort to invite dis-fellowshipped ones to the Memorial and the special public talk. (See the Shepherding textbook, chap-ter 10, paragraph 1, for direction on who qualify to be visited.) A copy of Return to Jehovah should be left with such individuals. As a reminder, the visit should be kind and positive, but brief.
They are required to convey their love for you. It has nothing to do with actual feelings...
 +7 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 13 hours ago

Yes..."required to"....
Thus highlighting the "conditional love" that exists, only IF you conform.....
 +3 / -0
Truthexplorer
Truthexplorer 7 hours ago
the 7 dudes in brooklynn are to blame for that contradiction. Their policy on shunning flies completely in the face of showing love!!!!!! Their policy reminds me of a school kid picking petals of a flower....love you, love you not, love you love you not........

 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 6 hours ago



WE.....LOVE....YOU....Beep....Beep....Beep....We....LOVE....YOU....Beep...Beep.... Beep....WE....LOVE....YOU....Beep....Beep....Beep.......................
 +2 / -0
pronomono
pronomono 6 hours ago
Yep, I felt the love of this requirement, too, for the memorial invite. Totally fake and put off to the last minute. That was the first time a JW had come to see me in over a year. Not one call. Like you, I didn't mind it. It was nice being left alone. But at the same time it really shows their lack of love and highlights their actions only come from an insincere sense of obligation.
 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 6 hours ago
You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension—a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone.
 +3 / -0

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Awww, you "love and miss us"? Really? Then why ignore us?
by stuckinarut2 17 hours ago 12 Replies latest 6 hours ago   jw experiences
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sparky1
sparky1 6 hours ago

Ha...ha...ha...MarkofCane. THE TWILIGHT ZONE................a perfect analogy!!!!!
 +1 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 6 hours ago
They have NO shame!
 
sir82
sir82 6 hours ago


So why then when one of them saw us at the grocery store, did he pretend to not see us and then ignore and quickly walk away?
You should write to him with that very question, and include the copy of the "Return to Jehovah (OR ELSE)" brochure.
For extra fun, you could CC: a few congregation members on the letter.

 

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Topic Summary
so we received the obligatory "shoved under the door" memorial invitation and "return to jehovah" brochure the other week.
it also had a hand written note from two elders saying "we love and miss you" etc.... so why then when one of them saw us at the grocery store, did he pretend to not see us and then ignore and quickly walk away?.
the sincerity is wonderful..... dont get me wrong, we dont want any attention from them, but it's an interesting observation anyway.....



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The Org. is screwing with me!
by olongapo joe 9 hours ago 5 Replies latest 7 hours ago   jw experiences
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olongapo joe
olongapo joe 9 hours ago
Not jw.org, but Phillippine Immigration.org. I have lived in the P.I.(Phillippine Islands) for 9 years now. Last year on a black out drunk, was accused of attemted homicide, so went to court, paid some dollars, case dismissed (the complainant was well taken care of) so two weeks ago tried to leave the country to visit family in the U.S., no dice, legal case pending. The case was dismissed locally, but Immigration in Manila of course has no record of case dismissmal. So after going to Manila with all paperwork paying associated fees, and being told to call in 2-3 working days, cannot get anyone to answer said phone at Immigration. I don't think they really care about me personally (sarcasm) I know they don't give a rats ass about my personnel situation, same as any large Organization ( Including Jah's). Just really typical of all large organizations, you really have to follow up on your own issue and document everything. Still trying to get permission to leave P.I., but in all honesty, I have been stuck in worst places, such as Diego Garcia, and Bahrain!!
 
stillin
stillin 9 hours ago

The whole lack of caring for the individual thing is alive and well in WT land. " Bigger fish to fry. Too busy in the Lord's work. Carry your own load."
Sort of conflicts with the "work what is good toward all, especially those related to us in the faith" thing.
realizing how little they care for people in crisis was one of the big turning points for me.
 +1 / -0
olongapo joe
olongapo joe 9 hours ago

My apologies for the misleading headline, but don't many of the blogs do the same thing?
Post a headline that you thinks relates to most of your readers point of view, but in reality is just to get clicks/advertising dollars. I don't know how to correct this, just find it interesting.

 
stillin
stillin 9 hours ago
Not misleading at all, Joe. Hey! You get MONEY when people respond to your posts?!
 
Listener
Listener 8 hours ago
If you haven't done so already, you could try contacting the Embassy of your Country of citizenship.
 
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 7 hours ago

hey Joe----look on the bright side---at least your not rotting away in muntinlupa city jail.
maybe a few dollars more into the right hands will get you on a plane.
 +1 / -0

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I quit the Goodwill :(
by Joliette 15 minutes ago 2 Replies latest 6 minutes ago   jw friends
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Joliette
Joliette 15 minutes ago
I couldnt take seeing people from the kingdom hall. You guys wouldnt believe how many Jehovahs Witnesses shop in the Goodwill. I couldnt take it. My mom shops at the Goodwill, and I saw my dad in there like a month ago, and now he shops there! My dad didnt like the Goodwill, but she influenced him to start buying his kingdom hall suits there. I couldnt take it you guys, maybe I'm not strong enough.
 +1 / -0
Perry
Perry 12 minutes ago
Goodwill serves a valuable niche. I have picked up a few things there, I regularly donate stuff there and take the tax deduction.
 +1 / -0
Joliette
Joliette 6 minutes ago
Yeah I guess its ok to shop there, but I couldnt take working there. Too much.
 

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Joliette
I quit the Goodwill :(
by Joliette in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 16 minutes ago
i couldnt take seeing people from the kingdom hall.

you guys wouldnt believe how many jehovahs witnesses shop in the goodwill.

i couldnt take it.

Terry
14
My "best" friend (active JW) has just died
by Terry in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 hours ago
johnny santa cruz and i met around 1959 at a movie theater in fort worth, texas.. the purpose of that meeting was to create a fanclub for horror movie director william castle.

a week or so later, johnny stopped me as i was walking home from elementary school.. "hey--i think i know you.

weren't you at the william castle fanclub thing?".

steve2
ToesUp
Finkelstein
18 minutes ago
new boy
3
Chapter One of my New Novel "New Boy"
by new boy in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 4 hours ago
the pledge is over and all the children sit back down at their desks.

many kids look at keith as he walks back into the classroom.

then your religion is weird.” .

sparky1
Barrold Bonds
NeverKnew
2 hours ago
olongapo joe
5
The Org. is screwing with me!
by olongapo joe in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 9 hours ago
not jw.org, but phillippine immigration.org.

i have lived in the p.i.

(phillippine islands) for 9 years now.

stillin
Listener
stan livedeath
7 hours ago
Gorbatchov
4
Religion, a part of the American way of Life.
by Gorbatchov in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 12 hours ago
found this picture on the twitter account and it makes a wider perspective to me.. the jw religion is so part of the american way of life, just like the other religions in the us.. in the jw growth rate country's there is a market for this "better" life.

the religion makes it possible.. western europe had that marketing mix need after world war 2 and maybe a part of the cold war.. see the picture, and you know, the similarities with the jw religion, the change will be in details and not fundamental.. gorby.

.

slimboyfat
shepherdless
SecretSlaveClass
8 hours ago
adjusted knowledge
1
Have you ever experience suprise by an Elder that actually showed compassion and reasoning in a judicial committee?
by adjusted knowledge in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 15 hours ago
some 25 years ago when i was an active teenager in the congregation there was this elder's teenage son that acted out sexually at a young age.

the elder's son i believe was molested over a short period of time at a very young age by another elder whose wife was dying of cancer.

the reason why i suspect it is because this elder was caught and discipline "privately" for touching the breast of a 15 year girl in our congregation.

Witness My Fury
12 hours ago
poopie
2
Help jw
by poopie in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 15 hours ago
jello

jaydee
talesin
14 hours ago
ZAPPA-ESQUE
4
Survey of Involvement in Cults / Religious Groups : PhD Research Project
by ZAPPA-ESQUE in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 16 hours ago
its a short anonymous survey - perhaps you would like to contribute 5 minutes- .

via: icsa (international cultic studies association).

""i'm passing on the message below from a duke university student who is conducting a research study that has gone through the duke institutional review board.

joe134cd
ZAPPA-ESQUE
FayeDunaway
3 hours ago
stuckinarut2
12
Awww, you "love and miss us"? Really? Then why ignore us?
by stuckinarut2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 17 hours ago
so we received the obligatory "shoved under the door" memorial invitation and "return to jehovah" brochure the other week.

it also had a hand written note from two elders saying "we love and miss you" etc.... so why then when one of them saw us at the grocery store, did he pretend to not see us and then ignore and quickly walk away?.

the sincerity is wonderful..... dont get me wrong, we dont want any attention from them, but it's an interesting observation anyway.....

sparky1
ToesUp
sir82
6 hours ago
Darryl
TELEVISION
by Darryl in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 17 hours ago
so i have been hooked on the oj miniseries very compelling.

i happened to miss episode 8 forgot to set my dvr.

i had been searching for days for episode 8 because with past episodes they have been showing them at least a half dozen times at odd hours however not true with episode 8. so i go to my phone and google the episode maybe it's been downloaded somewhere so can watch it.


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Catholic encyclopedia misquote
by alcyone 10 hours ago 6 Replies latest 23 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
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alcyone
alcyone 10 hours ago

I do not know if this misquote has been discussed here already.
New Catholic Encyclopedia says this about JW:

"Judge" Rutherford introduced important changes in the Witnesses' creed and transformed the congregational structure of the sect as it was under "Pastor" Russell into a rigid theocracy. The third leader, "Brother" Nathan H. Knorr, gradually replaced the offensive convert-making tactics of the Rutherford era by suave manners that have gained the Witnesses their current reputation as one of the best-behaved groups in the world.
see here: http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407705846/jehovah-witnesses.html
The statement is not very positive, is it? Watchtower being true to its reputation quote-mines it multiple times in the literature:
*** g 4/07 p. 27 What Does It Mean to Be a Christian? ***
For instance, the New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges that Jehovah’s Witnesses are known as “one of the best-behaved groups in the world.”

I am wondering if there is even one example of WTS not quoting out of context.


 +2 / -0
Room 215
Room 215 10 hours ago
Overall, it seems a fair statement if necessarily generalized for brevity.
 +1 / -0
dropoffyourkeylee
dropoffyourkeylee 10 hours ago
I had not seen the encyclopedia entry in the OP, but I am a little surprised by it. It is comparatively biased for an encyclopedia.
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 9 hours ago

"It is comparatively biased for an encyclopedia. "
All encyclopaedian articles are written by persons, and so reflect what the author wants to state. You find the strangest opinions on various religious and political groups in encyclopaedias.
 
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 8 hours ago

The Org claims to have ownership over "truth" yet they are the biggest liars.
I find it funny that one of the recent magazines on their web site had a cover article about Honesty.😷 I mean really? Every time it seems they quote a source they are wrong in some way especially if it favors the witnesses.
 +1 / -0
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 7 hours ago

What does the WTS encyclopedia say about the Catholic Church I wonder?
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 23 minutes ago

It is not a misquote - but an example of a partial quote or quote out of context.
A misquote would be having the statement say something different from what it originally said.
 

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Are you ready for armageddon?
by atomant 12 hours ago 25 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 12 hours ago
Just imagine the panic.disbelief.Oh my god they were right.Then you pee in your pants.What will l do?The plea for forgiveness.Please let me through.l promise l''ll change.l didn;t mean what l said on that JW.com site.l was jokin.Then you wake up it was only a dream.Disbelief turns to relief. But it could happen..

 +0 / -2
little_Socrates
little_Socrates 12 hours ago
LOL
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 11 hours ago
 
 +5 / -0
prologos
prologos 10 hours ago
Is Armageddon not in the same book as the talking snake?
 +7 / -0
GoneAwol
GoneAwol 9 hours ago
Atomant...."But it could happen.." bollocks! Like the flood happened......not
 +1 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 9 hours ago
That's something I think about as much as I think about sticking needles in my eyes while eating dogshit sandwiches.
 +11 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 9 hours ago
Sure, maybe a man made armageddon could happen. Maybe a super virus, volcano or nuclear apocalypse could send us running while soiling our pants. But an armagaddon from the Jewish deity? Nope.

 +2 / -0
stillin
stillin 9 hours ago
Sure, could happen. Why didn't God warn me? Why was it so dubious that His People were really His People? Why would God confuse things with that crazy Book?
 +4 / -0
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 8 hours ago
I'll take my chances with the "Big man upstairs" if and when A happens. Rather that than live my life full of despair and anxiety.
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 8 hours ago
The very premise is so flawed!
 +1 / -0

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Are you ready for armageddon?
by atomant 12 hours ago 25 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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punkofnice
punkofnice 8 hours ago

aa - But it could happen..
Don't worry, it won't.
 +1 / -0
atomant
atomant 8 hours ago
lm just sayin.

 +0 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 hours ago
how does one prepare for an event like this? a cataclysmic,destruction of the planet and the murder of billions! I've got some tins of beans in the cupboard.
 +2 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 7 hours ago

i made the decision armageddon was nonsense--back in 1971. i will stick with that decision. if i'm wrong--then so be it.
however--
so far--so good.
 +3 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 7 hours ago

Jookbeard9 minutes ago
how does one prepare for an event like this? a cataclysmic,destruction of the planet and the murder of billions! I've got some tins of beans in the cupboard.
now theres a business opportunity. JW.org beans.
(c'mon you dtop publishing guys-- mock up ? )
 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 7 hours ago




 +4 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 hours ago
LMAO punky, if I stock up on spam I will be ready
 
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 7 hours ago

spot on Punk !
remember
BEANZ MEANZ FARTZ
 
Heaven
Heaven 6 hours ago
Armageddon is the delusional nightmare of an aging, demented man (John) interned on the Greek island of Patmos which is famous for it's hallucinogenic mushrooms.

 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 6 hours ago
They might start selling beans soon. Anything to get money.
 

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Topic Summary
just imagine the panic.disbelief.oh my god they were right.then you pee in your pants.what will l do?the plea for forgiveness.please let me through.l promise l''ll change.l didn;t mean what l said on that jw.com site.l was jokin.then you wake up it was only a dream.disbelief turns to relief.
but it could happen..



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Are you ready for armageddon?
by atomant 12 hours ago 25 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
«
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punkofnice
punkofnice 6 hours ago
Jook - I remember giving a talk once where I mentioned SPAM as being Study Pray And Meditation.......what a twot I was!
 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 6 hours ago
Every religion has its control mechanism's, just like Catholics have Hell, JW's use Armageddon. With out these tactics people would be living normal lives. Relax and know these are religious mind control residual left on your brain. I went through the same thing, its a slow process to unlearn.
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 5 hours ago
If the was such a thing Jesus would not judge the witnesses so kindly, infact the leaders in all thier aragance would be the first to be toasted.
 
thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul 5 hours ago

Ah, Armageddon. The thing JW's fall back when they can't prove a point.
When you get them into a corner when they can no longer prove a belief or teaching, they often fall back on you die-ing in Armageddon for not having faith.
But don't worry, they're not a doomsday cult. They say so on their jw.org site!
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 4 hours ago
I'm not worried about Armageddon. But as Jesus said, maybe Pharisaical legalistic unmerciful religious leaders should be.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours an hour ago

I have been ready since 1975.
Bring it on already!!!
DY
 

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Topic Summary
just imagine the panic.disbelief.oh my god they were right.then you pee in your pants.what will l do?the plea for forgiveness.please let me through.l promise l''ll change.l didn;t mean what l said on that jw.com site.l was jokin.then you wake up it was only a dream.disbelief turns to relief.
but it could happen..



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Can God do everything? Can he sin?
by James Mixon 3 hours ago 11 Replies latest 2 minutes ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 3 hours ago

Reading this and it made me think, God cannot do everything. God is holy and He cannot
sin. The bible tells us He cannot lie. He cannot stop being God, He cannot deny
Himself, nor does He tempt anyone with evil.
This may sound absurd and a illogical challenge and meaningless, but he can do bad
things. He did send a plague to discipline His people and the flood.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 3 hours ago
As a non believer, I blame men for the murder god supposedly sanctioned. As for plague and all those things, I don't believe a god did it. As for the flood, I think you'll find, there really isn't any real evidence for a global flood. It's just fairy tales. Just my opinion.
 
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 hours ago

Can god make a Bolder so big he cant Lift it?


:smile:
 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 hours ago

Lets say the God of the Bible, I'am a non believer also but using the Bible as a foundation
for your discussion with a believer.
ttdtt: Yes I thought that was interesting "can God make a Bolder so big he can't lift it".
 
coalize
coalize 3 hours ago

It's the concept of Almighty God who's impossible. The same logic prove omniscience is impossible.
If god exist, he can't be Almighty and he can't be omniscient! :smile:
 +2 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 3 hours ago

Don anything? The God of the Bible can't even defeat with iron chariots!
"Now the LORD was with Judah, and they took possession of the hill country; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots." (Judges 1:19)

 
AnneB
AnneB 3 hours ago

Isn't that what's called a false dilemma?
Perhaps "sin" is a "human" concept thus not applicable to "God."

 
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 hours ago
A different way to look at this is - if there is a god - is this the best he can do?
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 3 hours ago
Sounds like the OP needs to go see Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice because it directly answers this question.
 
Simon
Simon 3 hours ago

Anyone who claims not to lie is normally lying. God's are no exception to this rule.
Everything else a liar claims is built on a false foundation and can be discounted - can't lie becomes all powerful becomes omniscient but all fall over like dominos when you realize the "can't lie" bit is just a lie.
 

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Can God do everything? Can he sin?
by James Mixon 4 hours ago 11 Replies latest 2 minutes ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 2 hours ago
God lies by proxy. He sends prophets or lying spirits to deceive.
 +1 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 2 minutes ago

If God has free will then why can't he sin?
If he doesn't have free will then how can he be God?
If he does have free will but is unable to sin, then why did he make humans in his image, and having free will but, unlike himself, being able to sin, resulting in suffering and death?
If he made humans with free will and the ability to sin - instead of making them to be without the ability to sin, like himself - then is he not ultimately responsible for sin?

 

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Topic Summary
reading this and it made me think, god cannot do everything.
god is holy and he cannot.
sin.



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A Brief History of MONEY and the Watchtower religion
by Terry 2 hours ago 3 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 2 hours ago

Watch Tower Corp has changed a long-standing policy in regard to donations which had been in place a long, long time. To appreciate how drastic these changes have been, you'd have to know how it was from the beginning.



Watch Tower Corp has changed a long-standing policy in regard to donations which had been in place a long, long time. To appreciate how drastic these changes have been, you'd have to know how it was from the beginning.
To understand the original policies (about money) and the changed (new policy) we have to take a peek into the past.
I don't want to bog you down in history. You can research on your own using Google.
Here are salient facts.
_________________________________________________
Charles T. Russell, age of 13, joined the Congregational church (dumped Presbyterian).
He went (like Girl Scouts are sent out with cookies to sell) door to door to RAISE MONEY for the Church.
Russell hated fund raising. He had to ask poor people to part with their money. He said he felt he was "fleecing the flock."
Russell sold 5 men's clothing stores for: $6,521,739.13
$300,000 of 1876 dollars would be worth : $6,521,739.13 in 2016.
http://www.davemanuel.com/inflation-calculator.php?
_______________________________________________________________
He threw his money into publishing End Times writings. He spent the family fortune like a drunken sailor on his favorite topics.
If somebody wrote something Russell agreed with he'd pay for the publishing.
If that somebody disagreed with Russell, he'd pull funding.
Russell finally fell in love with his own writings to the exclusion of everybody else (including his wife) and began writing 7 ambitious volumes.
He wanted to set everybody straight.
1886 the money dried up due to the immense amount of money spent in printing and distributing the first three publications.
He was spending about a million dollars a year! (In today's money.)
GUESS WHAT YEAR Russell tried to sell his books in bookstores? 1886.
_______________________________________________________________
By 1897, nearly one million Dawns had been distributed, largely by the colporteurs. DOOR TO DOOR BOOK SALESMEN.After 1931, the term “colporteur” was replaced by “pioneer.”
Pastor Russell's volumes were sold at about $2 a set or $2 of 1900 dollars would be worth: $55.00 in 2016 purchasing power.
Russell also turned to writing sermons as a newspaper columnist and built up a readership of about fifteen million people.
Having built a customer base (faithful readers) Russell went on tour giving sermons IN PERSON becoming one of the most recognized and 'famous' ministers in the world, like Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyers today.
Russell had no problems accepting private donations!
Pastor Russell had made a name for himself by refusing to take collections during meetings.
The slogan "Seats Free - No Collections" angered many clergymen because it was a slam on the traditional collection plate process.
_______________________________________________________________



The Watch Tower turned to advertising miraculous beans as a free giveaway and then switched to Miracle Wheat for a dollar.
In 1911, the market price for wheat was 59 cents to $1 a bushel. In Charles Taze Russell's Hicks Street Tabernacle, "miracle wheat" was being sold for $60 a bushel, or $1 a pound.
(The beans and wheat had been DONATED to Russell's ministry)
$1 of 1911 dollars would be worth: $24.39 in 2016 buying power.
Miracle Wheat brought in $1,800 of 1911 dollars would be worth: $43,902.44 in 2016
_______________________________________________________________
1897: When his wife Maria petitioned the court for a LEGAL SEPARATION (not a divorce) it was granted with Alimony.
Russell transferred his funds into the WTS account and strung Maria's alimony out torturously to make her dependent and to teach her a lesson.
Russell was litigious if he thought he could win a lawsuit.
The Washington Post partially quoted Maria's testimony about his claim "he floated from woman to woman like a jellyfish."
Russell sued and was awarded one dollar in damages. But--he relentlessly pursued an appeal making himself a legal nuisance and the case was settled for $15,000. $15,000 of 1915 dollars would be worth : $348,837.21 in 2016.
_______________________________________________________
http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/documents/1915_A_Great_Battle_in_the_Ecclesiastical_Heavens.pdf
Russell's attorney was Judge Rutherford who wrote a pamphlet: Great Battle in the Ecclesiastical Heavens defending Russell's reputation.
"This is a non-stock corporation; it pays no dividends, no salaries, and no one has ever, as its books clearly show, reaped any financial benefit therefrom. It is supported entirely by voluntary contributions made by those who are interested in the promulgation of Bible Truths. Its work is exclusively religious.
For each contribution of $10.00, the contributor is entitled to one voting share. While there are nearly two hundred thousand shares, and it would be an easy matter to elect some other man as president, there never has been cast a vote against Pastor Russell."
Ten dollars times two-hundred thousand shares = $2,000.000 $2,000,000 of 1915 dollars would be worth: $46,511,627.91 in 2016
Bingo! (Note: 1913 Federal Income Tax was passed into law.)
_______________________________________________________________
NINE MILLION people saw the PHOTO DRAMA of CREATION (a slide show) presented to audiences around the world. Stop and consider:
No collection plate was passed--however--DONATIONS were accepted. (A donation box in plain sight.)
On September 23, 1912, the Eagle ran a cartoon called "Easy Money Puzzle."
Russell sued the Eagle for libel, demanding $100,000 in damages for "injury to his reputation, good name, fame and standing."
The case was brought before Justice Charles H. Kelby and a jury in the Kings County Supreme Court.
One of the juicier allegations made against the Watch Tower Society was that it had coerced an insane man, Hope Hay, into contributing $10,000 to its funds. William E. Van Amburgh, secretary-treasurer of' the Watch Tower Society, acknowledged that Mr. Hay was in an "insane asylum" and that the Watch Tower Society was footing his bills, but denied that Mr. Hay had not given his money of his own free will.
The jury of twelve men was out for less than forty-five minutes before it returned a verdict of not guilty in the Eagle's favor.
This is just a historical snapshot of how money and the Watch Tower had their beginnings.
 +3 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 2 hours ago
There could likely be an entire book on this subject.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein an hour ago

Interesting stuff , it helps to define where Russell's focused attentions were, a little bit of religious theology mixed with a lot of the procurement of money. One thing those clothing stores couldn't achieve was the public praise and notoriety of being a godly righteous preacher of the good news of Jesus's kingdom to come.

Well that's the role he played and looks like he did it well.

Of course what he was selling was hyped commercialized bullshit that looked appealing by passing novice bible believers. Russell was more of a traveling charlatan who gave public talks to support his books and magazines making insinuations that organized religion was unnecessary, that all one had to do to understand and interpret the bible Scriptures correctly was to read his literature.

Where the real trouble started was when J Rutherford took over the WTS., that's when the real devil was set lose.

 +1 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast an hour ago

Another good read Terry. Well done!
 +1 / -0

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Terry
3
A Brief History of MONEY and the Watchtower religion
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 hours ago
watch tower corp has changed a long-standing policy in regard to donations which had been in place a long, long time.

to appreciate how drastic these changes have been, you'd have to know how it was from the beginning.. .

watch tower corp has changed a long-standing policy in regard to donations which had been in place a long, long time.

Londo111
Finkelstein
Slidin Fast
an hour ago
James Mixon
10
Can God do everything? Can he sin?
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 hours ago
reading this and it made me think, god cannot do everything.

god is holy and he cannot.

sin.

Barrold Bonds
Simon
James Mixon
2 hours ago
Joe Grundy
3
Lourdes, Bigorre, Pyrenees, France.
by Joe Grundy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 hours ago
(i never was a jw).. this topic occurred to me randomly.

i don't know whether any/many posters heer have visited.

the region is beautiful but marred, imho, by the scar that is lourdes.

GrreatTeacher
kepler
Xanthippe
3 hours ago
pixel
6
Skills Questionnaire Instructions
by pixel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 hours ago
skills questionnaire instructions.

1. there is an urgent need to locate exemplary brothers and sisters who possess certain skills or work experience and who are available to offer their services on a broader scale to help support the theocratic expansion work taking place worldwide.

for example, skilled brothers are needed to assist with large-scale theocratic construction projects, computer-related projects, audio/video projects, and the increasing translation work.

millie210
wifibandit
ToesUp
38 minutes ago
alcyone
6
Catholic encyclopedia misquote
by alcyone in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 10 hours ago
i do not know if this misquote has been discussed here already.. new catholic encyclopedia says this about jw:.

"judge" rutherford introduced important changes in the witnesses' creed and transformed the congregational structure of the sect as it was under "pastor" russell into a rigid theocracy.

the third leader, "brother" nathan h. knorr, gradually replaced the offensive convert-making tactics of the rutherford era by suave manners that have gained the witnesses their current reputation as one of the best-behaved groups in the world.

Darkknight757
TTWSYF
steve2
32 minutes ago
punkofnice
15
Memorial attendance
by punkofnice in Watchtower Society / JW.org
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 11 hours ago
my spies seem a bit confused.

here, in this neck of the woods 3 congregations had 3 separate sittings.

the attendance seemed to be swelling.

kairos
Crazyguy
JW GoneBad
13 minutes ago
atomant
25
Are you ready for armageddon?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 hours ago
just imagine the panic.disbelief.oh my god they were right.then you pee in your pants.what will l do?the plea for forgiveness.please let me through.l promise l''ll change.l didn;t mean what l said on that jw.com site.l was jokin.then you wake up it was only a dream.disbelief turns to relief.

but it could happen..

thedepressedsoul
FayeDunaway
Doubtfully Yours
an hour ago
Randy M.
Approachability-Requirement for JW Elders?
by Randy M. in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 a day ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qefmr-xd2zo.

Terry
14
Jehovah’s Witnesses are Taught to Lie but to then Lie about Lying
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
jehovah’s witnesses are taught to lie but to then lie about lying.

first off, let’s define what it means to tell a lie.

i prefer the definition offered by aristotle way back in 4th century b.c.e.

Londo111
Terry
Finkelstein
4 hours ago
Hecce
22
Did you participate in a Drama?
by Hecce in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
i am bringing this up because even it was a lot of work, for the majority of the friends this was a rewarding experience.

camaraderie, joking, costumes, props and when the time came the celebrity status of being in the drama.. back in the 50s and 60s, conventions could be as long as 8 days and from about 1966 the dramas became an integral part of the program.

we had one per day and the brothers looked forward to their presentation.

brandnew
Hecce
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an hour ago
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