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My Muslim friend's and the Koran.
by new hope and happiness a year ago 43 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower bible
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new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

In another thread i raised the point " There are moderate Muslims but their is no moderate Islam"
Now i must face the fact i have Muslim friends who say they believe the Koran.
Well i have asked these Muslim friends, if they have investigated the origins of the Koran. They have answerd " YES"
Now my Muslim friends are not liers.
My reply has been, but Islam considers it blasphemy, punnishable by death, to investigate the origin of the Koran.
Yes my Muslim friends are like J.Ws they are meant to believe without doubt, or discussion.
Now i assume my Muslim friends are moderate, and dont believe the book was written before the beginning of time by Allah himself.
So my moderate Muslim friends claim to have investigated the Koran, i assume has been done without depth.
My question is if my moderate Muslim friends are not a threat to defending our civilizationto against Islam, why should i require of them a more indepth and truthful answer to their study of the " Koran"?
 
punkofnice
punkofnice a year ago


NH&H -My question is if my moderate Muslim friends are not a threat to defending our civilizationto against Islam, why should i require of them a more indepth and truthful answer to their study of the " Koran"?
What makes you think you NEED to quiz them? No one person can answer for a host of individuals............same as the JWs really, all different, just share the same delusion.
Perhaps I'm being a little dim here....................it comes with age
I am a little confused.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

@nhah
Be very, very careful.
Your moderate muslim friends might tell one of their more 'zealous' friends all about their chats with you.
If I were you, I'd forget all about it and just smile, nod politely, and change the subject.
Your health and life are worth more than any muslim's beliefs.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

No that is a fair question Punk.
One of my friends started saying " peace be upon his name" in conversation, so the subject came up.
On anothet ocassion it was about " Pork" Just harmless conversation that bought " belives up"
I myself am a " vegie" but i eat fish. ( hypocrite to many veggies) we label to much)
But i have also been with a Muslim friend who kindly invited me to a home . They were reading the Koran as a group. The next time i saw him i felt it fair to ask him about his knowledge on the Koran.
Now as for myself i dont like discussing religion. But i have a child and as a parent i allow him to associate with other kids. I also feel this responsibility extends to what other patents teach children.
In linköping where i live we have had issues with Islamic exstremisam, as we have with those who promote equality between the sexes.
I am comfortable with my child being with same sex families. I am not comfortable with my child associating with parents who take " Holy Books" as the word of God.
In my community, i have seen teenage children embrassing " Islam" in a negative way.
My boy is nine and is friends with children whose older brothers attitude to religion worries me. The parents of the family do not share the older childrens view point. I think the parents should be aware that their teenage child is taking on views which are opposed to the good of our community.
When my boy associated with a young child whose brother was in a gang i stopped the friendship. Glad i did his elder brother was involved in a shooting.( and i am not saying i did the right thing, stopping the association,)
Punk the main thesis of Mein Kampf is simple, the main thread of raising a child is harder. Right or wrong i question ( quix) what the attitude of parents to my boy is. ( Sorry i do sound hard and judgemental)
But fact is if my kid is with J.Ws children i am aware of the parents attitue to my kid. ( that's why i could respect we did not knock on those doors for " goodies or tricks on Halloween"
When people claim to worship a book that " marks" me for death it is sensible to investigate the strength of that friendship.



 
punkofnice
punkofnice a year ago


Now as for myself i dont like discussing religion.
Probably the best way.
No matter how you bring your kids up they'll do what the hell they want.
I tried to bring my kids up to be decent citizens and failed miserably.
You can lead a horse to water and all that stuff........
 
designs
designs a year ago

I worked with a Iranian man who was raised Muslim and only celebrated Ramadan in word not deed. He knew of the fear the religion holds on people. He had family in Iran and his letters home had to be very simple- hi mom how's it going stuff because under the theocratic regime letters were censored.
 
humbled
humbled a year ago

 Be very, very careful Your moderate muslim friends might tell one of their more 'zealous' friends all about their chats with you.
 If I were you, I'd forget all about it and just smile, nod politely. and change the subject.
Your health and life are worth more than any muslim's belief.--LUHE
Didn't we hate this about the Borg---the fear of reasonable discussion with friends? The mistrust that governs repressive religion requires a measure of our own complicity, doesn't it?
How can anyone on the board who is terrified of Islam simply smile, nod politely and change the subject? And if it turns out to be the preferred way to deal with our dread of living under a caliphate, how is it that born-in muslims are condemned for not complaining of ISIS militants or sharia law?
Of all people, the ex-dubs can share our cautionary tale of the insidious effects of a "peaceful" religion that violates conscience, family relations, love, spiritual privacy, genuine neighborliness, women's rights, educational opportunities--you name it.
In other words, if we haven't fully realized the value of our freedom as ex-JWs, then now is the time to reflect on it. We can mine the threads on this forum for excepts of the thorny problems we face when we try to reconcile old writings with present realities.
We are fairly safe in doing it now, too. When a Muslim is our friend they have already had the bravery to violate the Quran by befriending us, right? And we are NOT living in Saudi Arabia, right? So talk about the experience you had as a "Christian Witness of Jehovah"---I almost guarantee it will open the door to discussion.
 
Heaven
Heaven a year ago

A former Muslim colleague of mine said that scripture needed to be taken into context and viewed with an eye for the times. What was written back then is not necessarily valid in our present day. He is definitely 'a moderate Muslim'. And a great guy... he looked after his sick mother in law until her death.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

Seriously, nhah, screw humbled. He/she can stick their advice right where the sun don't shine.
Although most muslims are peaceful and decent people they can be very volatile - Salman Rushdie went into hiding for writing the seemingly harmless and dull-as-ditchwater 'Satanic Verses'.
I'm advising you right now to leave this matter with your muslim friends well alone. Save it for JWN.
Please.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Hunböed:-
Why did you respond to " loveandhateexams" post in such a rude way?
It was a post with genuine love and concern for my well being.
Your post seemed an attack on " loveandhateexams" as an individual.
Sorry Humbled, but i think on debating sites we all have different minds.
it's a complete and utter mystery to me why we can't make a point without trashing other peoples point of view.
Now i am doing the same to you Humbled.....sorry.
When i post i imagine we are debating sharing an ice- cream on a hot summers day ( ok i know this will never happen)
Back to my O.P....which was?

 
Simon
Simon a year ago

Most JWs are not 'liars' but will lie to their closest 'friends' when asked about 'the truth'.
Don't think casual friendship can win over a lifetime of indoctrination and generations of manipulation.
 
humbled
humbled a year ago

LUHE,
I can see why you would steer clear of sensitive issues. Having my views crammed up my arse might be a prime conversation topper in your world but not mine. There are ways to talk --even if indirectly-- about freedom. And we should if we send the young to die for it--what do we do at home?
You love freedom. So do I.
By the way, I am a 62 year old she.
Maeve
PS. Clue me--Attack you as a person? I disagree with your advice. Is that the same as trashing your comment? Apology if you felt contempt . This is a discussion forum, no?
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

loveandhayeexams,
I am aware of Rushdie and the Cartoonist,i appreciate your concern, and i am aware that in Austria it is illegal to posess a copy of Mein Kampf.
But i think my Muslim friends are fair minded and educated enough in friendship to not be impressionable by " islam". Infact i think they are aware of it, and they prefer Western Values.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Humbled thank you for the positive post to LUHE.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

@humbled - I'm sorry for what I said about you.
@nhah - I am concerned for you. I think that most people here on JWN are indeed decent people and I would include you in that.
Maajid Nawaz is a decent man and a moderate, serious muslim. He has received numerous death rates for asking awkward questions.
What makes you think that Schmoes such as me or you can cross the muslim minefield and make it to the other side unscathed?
Take a long, deep think about this before you do or say anything on this matter.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

LuHE....thank you for your concern.
THE CASE FOR COMPROMISE...one afternoon on the ice skating ring my little boy got his shoe lases tied together.
I decided to give chase and stop him tripping over his feet.
It was me who tripped over my feet.
I have met concentration survivors. I loved their spirit. This spirit which was not of fear or hatred but love and EDUCATION.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

@humbled - generally speaking, the Muslim World doesn't go a bundle on 'freedom', does it?
@nhah - we're not talking about falling over on the ice and bruising your leg here, are we?
I realise I'm swiftly becoming a pain in the a$$, but be careful.
 
humbled
humbled a year ago

LUHE,
No problem. I actually prefer it when someone bothers to tear me a new one--I survived anal canal cancer for over a year now-- If it comes back, I get in touch with you .
In truth, the problem of fearing to talk is a huge concern of mine. I was raised in a family that suppressed dialogue and fought it, I ended up in a religion that offered freedom of religion and found it false. I hate it-- there is no save haven for ourselves and our children when we fear.
I do agree with you that caution is needed--that's why I say not to go head-on with frightened Muslims--- but come in side ways with our own experience of repression( the JW experience). We are free to express the adverse effect it ultimately had on all we wanted to protect---particularly our children. We can elaborate on the wretched effect it had on our girls. We can expand on the repression of our young men.
It isn't an original idea--this idea of coming in sideways-- NOT directly-- with a story or example that WE know applies to a certain subject--others have used it to good effect. We have this shared example: In our Witness days we remember the story of the prophet Nathan telling the story to the king, David: The story was of a man whose single young she-lamb was taken fom a poor family and slaughtered for the rich neighbor's meal--And the story hit home for David. He had done the same by screwing Uriah's wife.
Such an approach creates freedom because of the "plausible deniability" it allows. I have had to use it often myself when there have been volitile matters in our family to discuss. I've disagreed with my own husband over matters that have involved criminal matters and our children. Often there are issues that have to be dealt with round-about. But they have to be addressed eventually.
Chickens DO come home to roost.
Maybe we can shoo them away for a time--but they propagate and will move into your house sooner or later.
And, LUHE, I admire that you care so much for NHAH that you flew in my face. It was rattling but goddammed real.
Maeve
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run a year ago

Truly moderate Muslims exist and thrive! This forum has been racist of late. Disparaging a major world religion is not good. There is so much in our own tradition that is deplorable --the sacrifice of Isaac, the flood story, the rape of women, major war crimes by Israel. The list of questionable items could go and on. One can view these Biblical sources as a tradition. The Bible also teaches respect for parents, to love each other, not to steal, etc. I suggest you investigate Islam, not rely on some crazy posts here. I know American Muslims. They are no threat to me or anyone else. I am tired of my personal beliefs being defined by Christian fundamentalism rather than what I actually believe. I suggest Muslims are similarly upset.
 
poopsiecakes
poopsiecakes a year ago

Islam is not a race, it's a religion that has many people in its grip. I don't understand how it's possible in 2014 to be all chill when it comes to a religion that teaches the kind of stuff this one does about how to treat women. I've said this before and I'll say it again - there is no way that it's ok to teach people that women need to be covered up in order to be acceptable. The WT prints something like 'women need to listen in silence' or 'apostates are mentally diseased' and the board erupts - rightly so and calls it what it is, hate speech. But somehow it's ok with Islam. I don't get it.
Has the WT somehow become more dangerous than Islam because you know someone who's a really nice Muslim? I know plenty of really nice Muslims and they're not the problem. Their religion IS a problem and I think we should all be able to tell the difference having come out of a destructive cult. Nice people doesn't mean their religion is nice or above critisism.
 

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My Muslim friend's and the Koran.
by new hope and happiness a year ago 43 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower bible
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keyser soze
keyser soze a year ago

 Nice people doesn't mean their religion is nice or above critisism.
Perfectly stated!
 
Separation of Powers
Separation of Powers a year ago

People have the RIGHT to believe what they want to believe. I have Catholic friends, Protestant, Jewish and yes...Muslim. I don't care what they believe, nor do I expect them to try to justify their beliefs. In the end, I have chosen friends with whom I share common interests NOT common beliefs.
 
humbled
humbled a year ago

SOP,
I do agree in principle with you. But I know that Muslims currently are troubled by some of the attitudes that waft their way due to the actions of fellow Muslims. The 9/11 attack was a life changer for many Muslims even here in Arkansas.
If the Quran has mandates for rotten treatment of sinners and nonmuslims--violent repression etc. then it might be enlightened self interest and not a terrible thing for our Muslim friends to find non-threatening entry to topic that allow discussion.
You know, if Muslims are too afraid or are simply oblivious, they will not engage. But TTATT was relevant for you and me--so it may be for them.
We do not have to assault their religion--but it may be comforting to examine the various reasons we left the WTBTS --one reason being that we now can associate with Muslims without trying to convert them!
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

This can become to controversial for my O.P...
But i love " Tommy Cooper" and his jokes were often at womens exspense.
Tommy Cooper: " My wife is a magigian- yesterday she turned our car into a tree"
Yes in the 1970s women driving a car in England was " women drivers"
So yes it is wrong a muslim woman was recently sentenced to 40 lashes for driving a car in a Muslim land.
But the sentence was over turned...due to the fact " individual muslims" stood up against the sentence.
Where were we and the treatment of women in England in the 40s 50s 60s 70s ect. Where were we as a cpuntry ( England) in supporting equality between the sexes in the 1990s...and why are our law books so good and without fault today?
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

Sorry, humbled, I obviously didn't know that you had that problem.
I should sometimes think more before I type.
I really am sorry.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

Oh yes, I agree with you humbled caution is the word here.
JWs can and do disfellowship, shun, and disinherit 'apostates'. This is bad but it's nothing compared to what some muslims do to apostates.
 
Separation of Powers
Separation of Powers a year ago

As difficult a read as it is for the non-muslim, I have read the koran. I got it from an information table at the mall, Yes it was quite surreal as I thought it was a JW table at first. I was intrigued by all the similarities between it and the Old Testament. In many respects, they follow parallel paths up until Ishmael as far as lineage go. It is replete with directives against the infidel, but so is the Old Testament.
As may of the Jewish faith do not subscribe to the tenets of ancient Judaism, so, the moderate Muslim may not subscribe to the actual interpretation of the Koran. There is a defined conflict between the moderate and the radical. Those with whom I have spoken are similar to JW's in a certain respect, namely, that they find it difficult to speak against the radical side due to fear of reprisals. Sounds quite similar to many on this forum.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Why do the people you disagree with make great posts?
Because this board does not forbid individual expression.
Hello Islam i left J.W and and looking for a place i have less individual expression....
Lets respect " Allah" " and at least half the prisoners in prison in Pakistan. ( the other half are women)
Oh women and troucers in the K.H...women and " teaching" in the K.H.
Lets not forget where we came from....

 
cofty
cofty a year ago


This forum has been racist of late - BOTR
Muslims come from a wide variety of racial origins. I detest Islam - everybody who cares about human rights ought to detest Islam. I am NOT a racist.
For a lawyer you seem to struggle with clear thinking.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

The Koran contains 6,360 verses, collected in 114 suras, or chapters I think both " Cofty and Band on the Run" will agree thats a lot of legal blah, blah.
May i add on a legal point the Koran states that if someone needs witnessses for a legal matter, he has to find TWO men. " but if two men cannot be found, then one man snd two women"
So as a laywer i would say Islan views women as half the value as a man.
What value are women given in J.W land?
What value were women given in England in the 1940s, 50s 60s 70s 80s ect ...
My moderate muslim friends seem to have equal respect between husband and wife.
 
Simon
Simon a year ago


Truly moderate Muslims exist and thrive! This forum has been racist of late.
Cobblers. Tell me what race you can convert to and apostacize from (except for African American if you are Michael Jackson ...).

Disparaging a major world religion is not good.
Why not? I think giving religion undue respect is worse.

There is so much in our own tradition that is deplorable --the sacrifice of Isaac, the flood story, the rape of women, major war crimes by Israel.
Since when is that our tradition? You are mixing some mythical stories with crimes, none of which are touted as current things to do.

The list of questionable items could go and on. O ne can view these Biblical sources as a tradition.
Except you can't and they're not.

The Bible also teaches respect for parents, to love each other, not to steal, etc.
Ah, the old "some things in religion are common sense therefore it's all sensible" argument.

I suggest you investigate Islam, not rely on some crazy posts here. I know American Muslims. They are no threat to me or anyone else. I am tired of my personal beliefs being defined by Christian fundamentalism rather than what I actually believe. I suggest Muslims are similarly upset.
Bo hoo to them. They should make clear then that their beliefs are very very different and distinct to those that they are confused with. If they can't do that then it's their problem, not ours.
I suggest you go look up 'race' in a dictionary and then read about the inhuman treatment of women and minorities under islamic rule.
 
Simon
Simon a year ago

There has been a lot of noise lately because of Ben Affleck mouthing off against Sam Harris and Bill Maher. Some commentators have tried to "address and explain the issue". But you know what?
Not one person has manager to put up a convincing argument that anything they have said is wrong on TV or in print.
There is a truth that many can't bring themselves to face. They want to chastise people who criticise the indefensible and in the middle of their liberal diatribes forget that free speech means people are allowed to say that "they think Islam is a vile and disgusting festering pile of rubbish".
No ones rights are being violated when they say that - but other people's rights and lives are being extinguished when they try to say it because islam is the first and most eager to prove that the criticism it receives is 100% valid by punishing those who object to it. It doesn't have the same protections of free speech by a long, long way.
We seem to have invented pretend liberals to match the pretend muslims. The universe has a sense of irony it seems.
 
Simon
Simon a year ago

Here's a perfect example of liberal bias on this particular issue. Sam Harris was on Fareed Zakaria's Global Public Square show on CNN. Here is the interview on CNN's site:
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/11/01/zakaria-harris-debate-extremism-in-islam/
If you watch it all, it sounds like the interview ends. But it didn't - they have cut it off at a point that really does Sam Harris a great dis-service and makes his response look rather weak.
Why would they do that? The full version has the crucial explanation of the issues by Sam Harris included towards the end of the segment:



No one ever has an answer for the real issue which is that the majority of muslims cannot leave their religion or even openly voice any questions about it without severe repercussions against them, possibly their execution. It is not a religion - it is a fascist ideology that is the nazism of our times.
How dare anyone defend such an ideology and question any who criticise it and then have the affront to claim they stand for liberal ideals. It's disgraceful.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Simon and Cofty :The post you commented on would have faded away without comment.
My O.P is about cultural in our communities.
In other words my Muslim frineds owe nothing to " Islam" and i owe nothing to " Jehovers Witnessses"
I see a problem with immigration from Islamic countrries.
This is the O.P and your post" Bandontherun " has taken it of topic.
Back on topic " How do we cherish our national identity" in the land we live?
I have learnt my " national lands" identity was also repressive to women in my childhood.
Maybe it's best Simon closes this thread, it's too confrotational a subject for me to control.
 
AlphaMan
AlphaMan a year ago


This forum has been racist of late - BOTR
LOL....I just come here to laugh at the liberal lunacy that hating the ideology of the Islam religion is equated with racism. Only a hypocrite would be a member of an X-JW forum and state this. I think the Mormon religion is a bat-shit craxy cult also. Tell me.....what race am I a racist against with this thinking?
Good grief....the things that are said here against the little insignificant JW sect, and the lengths the liberals here will go to to sympathize with the Muslims.
 
humbled
humbled a year ago

Let's keep the thread alive.
But here was a very narrow path this thread is running on. We already have been through hot forum battles-over-Islam sparked by the recent beheadings and the solders killed in Canada.
Now this thread deals with the practical concern of how free are our friends who are Muslim of the violent influence of the dark verses of the Quran. and will this make ourselves and our children a mark for violence if we are non-muslim and speak out in against repressive practices and violence in the name of God.
It is a difficult thing to establish a thread and maintain dialogue instead of diatribes.
We all know that there is a problem with violent and misogynist horrible behavior that for whatever reason has risen out of the Quran. I like this thread for the possibilities it offered of assessing ways for ordinary communities and individuals to deal with Muslim neighbors...
If we can't manage our conversation so that we aren't constantly polarizing every fraction of discussion, then we will get no where.
Let's continue....
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

I am going to leave my O.P.
Why, time does not permit.
I wish Simon had a feature where we could close threads.
Anyway before i leave this thread. I think " religion, or anything we our minds too" trys to make us see it from that point of view.
I like being a person who fails to understand and see it from that point of view.
I mean i am happy with my point of view and if it's 70% right well then at least i am not a fanatic.
Now most people that are 100% right i remember from my J.W life.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

I agree with humbled - this thread can be good without the need for diatribes.
So here's my opinion, for what it's worth: it's just not worth it for any of us to try to help muslims see organised religion for what it is.
Islam needs reforming but only muslims can do this. Likewise, whatever muslims truly believe, they'll have to figure this out for themselves in their own way. Until Islam is tamed like Christianity, it's best to let them get on with it, IMO.
 
redvip2000
redvip2000 a year ago

I just saw a documentary last night on 60 minutes about radical islam, which i found truly disturbing. It addressed the issue of a growing number of muslims who are keen on world domination by Islam. The interesting thing is the fact that these folks are not living in a desert rat hole unaware of the conforts and properity of western civilzations; these folks are born in the west, and yet detest the properity and opportunity that surround them.
More disturbing is that they don't want to just be left alone to worship what they feel like, they truly believe that the entire world must be converted to islam under shariah law, and violence is acceptable in order to get this done. I walked away from listening to what they had to say thinking that this is a much bigger issue than what i thought.
There are many religions on earth, and although all are idiotic in some way, we can co-exist with them as we don't have to believe in them. But the game is changing with Islam, there is simply a growing sentiment from muslims that the rest of the world does not have the right to NOT be muslim, and this is a problem.
Jehovah witnesses are not all that different in reality. They also advocate death to all non-believers but luckily, they feel Jehoober is the one who has the task of killing all non-JWs, and that's good enough for me. What is not good for me, is for folks to believe they have to take this task into their own hands.
 
AlphaMan
AlphaMan a year ago


This forum has been racist of late - BOTR
Not to hijack the thread, but Band On The Run earlier in this thread basically made the claim that those here on the forum who do not like Islam were racists. Below is a gem of hers from another thread. By her own definition she is a racist against Christian Fundamentalists. Amazing that living in New York City, America she gives more sympathy & tolerance to Muslims than she does to Christians.

I am so tired of Christianity being defined by a bunch of ignorant fundamentalist nuts. BOTR
 

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Topic Summary
in another thread i raised the point " there are moderate muslims but their is no moderate islam".
now i must face the fact i have muslim friends who say they believe the koran.. well i have asked these muslim friends, if they have investigated the origins of the koran.
they have answerd " yes".



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My Muslim friend's and the Koran.
by new hope and happiness a year ago 43 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower bible
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LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

@AlphaMan - BOTR is an educated person and really should know better. Ignore her nonsense statements.
Let's continue this thread ...
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

I think returning three days later, this is a good thread.
I think my Muslim friends and i are friends because deeper emotions than religious " ideology" exist .
What emotions?
Love, joy. sorrow, football.
We are people who live " within ourselfs" and our inherited faith is of little value.
But how does the mind become strayed to silly thoughts?
Did we as witnesses convert anyone with the bible?
Only when life is boaring and without hope do most become " exstreme"
But any " ideolgy" is open to conversion if governments of that land give it free speech......opinions welcome.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

@nhah - there is a muslim girl of Somali descent in my biology class in uni.
She's a good student, always meets deadlines and sits through evolution lectures.
The fact that the majority of muslims are like this young lady gives me hope.
'any " ideolgy" is open to conversion if governments of that land give it free speech' - good point but in Britain this isn't happening.
After each Islamist atrocity David Cameron, seemingly on autopilot, repeats the phrase 'Islam is a religion of peace'.
He's starting to sound like a scratched record.
 
objectivetruth
objectivetruth a year ago

Most religions in the History of the World have Commited atrocities in the name of their Religion. Considering that there are 1 Billion Muslims in the world, if 1 Milliom of them are Jihadist Extremists, the whole Earth should be Muslim, that would mean that only 1/1000 of Humans would be Evil.
 

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Topic Summary
in another thread i raised the point " there are moderate muslims but their is no moderate islam".
now i must face the fact i have muslim friends who say they believe the koran.. well i have asked these muslim friends, if they have investigated the origins of the koran.
they have answerd " yes".



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Ergun Caner: converted from the Islamic cult
by Shining One 10 years ago 3 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Shining One
Shining One 10 years ago

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/islEamis.htm http://www.erguncaner.com/new/default.asp

As the son of a mwazein, Ergun had to learn the hadith (the sayings and traditions of Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam) in the Qur'an. In these teachings, Ergun says the central thesis of Islam does in fact have an essential tenet of militaristic conquest at its heart. The infidel, or unbeliever, must be converted or conquered. If the Muslim dies in such a struggle or declaration of war (jihad), he is promised immediate translation into the highest level of paradise. Therefore, when pressed most Muslims would say that Mohamed Ata is in heaven according to the Qur'anic teaching.
The Qur'an, supposedly from the mouth of Allah, takes a dim view of the non-believer and a strict view of jihad as a warfare against them. In Surah 2:190, Allah says, "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you. And slay them wherever you catch them." Physical warfare is an absolute necessity so that Allah is honored and worshipped. Jihad is one of the highest calls of life for a Muslim. "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and lives." Surah 4.95
According to the doctrine of jihad there are three waves of jihad. The first wave is the shock -- which was Sept 11.
The second wave is to show a people that they are vulnerable. It has to be public. "Daniel Pearl was killed on videotape," says Ergun. There is no question that group who killed Pearl is a subgroup of the radical Muslim fundamental group, Mujahdeen.
The third wave is to humiliate your enemy, to "cut the legs out from under them." "Thank God President Bush responded as he did," Ergun says. "If he had not, the second wave would have been much, much worse than the first." The Koran teaches that if your enemy is weak -- conquer him. If he is strong -- respect him. That means they keep going until they meet with resistance.
He further explains that when a Christian blows up an abortion clinic, he does that in spite of the teachings of Jesus Christ. "Muslims perform jihad because of the teachings of Muhammed," declares Ergun. "Make no mistake, they are at war with us and these are not just radical Muslims."
Osama bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim, not a Shiite, which is considered the more radical of the two. When bin Laden is on television, he is quoting the Qur'an. "It is difficult to take the Qur'an out of context," says Ergun. Even to the casual reader, jihad is more than just an intellectual exercise of struggle, but rather an engagement in battle and struggle and warfare with death as a conclusion for the Muslim blessing.
Muhammad echoed this conclusion in Hadith 4.73 "Muhammed said, "Know that paradise is under the shades of the sword." For the Muslim apologists who redact the terminology to indicate that fighting is perhaps an intellectual debate must read Surah 2:216, "Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you know not." It is impossible to determine that the text means anything but fighting in the traditional sense of combat.
A Muslim is a Muslim by birth, but many are illiterate. Therefore they must take the word of the imam, equivalent to a pastor, as truth. They cannot question the validity of what the imam says.
With reference to the recent Gallup poll, "they hate us," says Ergun. "And they cannot make the distinction between an American and a Christian because of the way they are brought up culturally. When you say a man is a Turk, it is understood that he is Muslim."
Ergun believes that the United States did not finish the job in the Gulf War. He believes that we will not end the war on terrorism without including Saddam Hussein, who is the major fundraiser for Islam. "If we do not go after him, this will never end," he says. "He will continue the jihad."

God Bless our president, George Bush!

Rex
 
DavidChristopher
DavidChristopher 10 years ago

Can I race Osama? I would like to know what his goals are, and why he cannot reason with us one on one? Why must he let his "robots" do his fighting for him? Why must he let them "steal his thunder"? Is he afraid to face us one on one and tell his side? My God, did not raise me to be a "robot" leading "robots" letting them do the "fighting" for me. Wanna race? I wonder if him and Bush are in this together? See the more Osama scares us, the more we need Bush to take away our freedom to "protect" us from him. How does that work? Would Bush want to really catch him? Would you?
Your little brother,
David
 
funkyderek
funkyderek 10 years ago

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=1
 Testimony of Abdullah al-Faruq , formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church

Foreword As a former minister and elder of the Christian church, it has become incumbent upon me to enlighten those that continue to walk in darkness. After embracing Islam I felt a dire need to help those who have not yet been blessed to experience the light of Islam.

I thank Almighty God, Allah, for having mercy upon me, causing me to come to know the beauty of Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad and his rightly guided followers. It is only by the mercy of Allah that we receive true guidance and the ability to follow the straight path, which leads to success in this life and the Hereafter.
Praise be to Allah for the kindness shown to me by Shaykh 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baz upon my embracing Islam. I cherish and will pass on the knowledge gained from each meeting with him. There are many others who have helped me by means of encouragement and knowledge, but for fear of missing anyone, I will refrain from attempting to list them. Sufficient it is to say that I thank Almighty God, Allah, for each and every brother and sister that He has allowed to play a role in my growth and development as a Muslim.
I pray that this short work will be of benefit to all. I hope that Christians will find that there is yet i hope for the wayward conditions that prevail over the bulk of Christendom. The answers to Christian problems are not to be found with the Christians themselves, for they are, in most instances, the root of their own problems. Rather, Islam is the solution to the problems plaguing the world of Christianity,as well as the problems facing the so-called worldof religion as a whole. May Allah guide us all and reward us according to the very best of our deeds and intentions.
Abdullah Muhammad al-Faruque at-Ta'if, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

Beginnings
As a young boy I was raised with a deep fear of God. Having been partially raised by a grandmother who was a Pentecostal fundamentalist, the church became an integral part of my life at a very early age. By the time I had reached the age of six, I knew all too well the benefits awaiting me in Heaven for being a good little boy and the punishment awaiting in Hell for little boys who are naughty. I was taught by my grandmother that all liars were doomed to go to the Hellfire, where they would burn forever and ever.
My mother worked two full-time jobs and continued to remind me of the teachings given to me by her mother. My younger brother and older sister did not seem to take our grandmother's warnings of the Hereafter as seriously as I did. I recall seeing the full moon when it would take on a deep reddish hue, and I would begin to weep because I was taught that one of the signs of the end of the world would be that the moon would become red like blood. As an eight year old child I began to develop such a fear at what I thought were signs in the heavens and on earth of Doomsday that I actually had nightmares of what the Day of Judgement would be like. Our house was close to a set of railroad tracks, and trains passed by on a frequent basis. I can remember being awakened out of sleep by the horrendous sound of the locomotive's horn and thinking that I had died and was being resurrected after hearing the sound of the trumpet. These teachings were ingrained in my young mind through a combination of oral teachings and the reading of a set of children's books known as the Bible Story.
Every Sunday we would go to church dressed in all of our finery. My grandfather was our means of transportation. Church would last for what seemed to me like hours. We would arrive at around eleven in the morning and not leave until sometimes three in the afternoon. I remember falling asleep in my grandmother's lap on many occasions. For a time my brother and I were permitted to leave church in between the conclusion of Sunday school and morning worship service to sit with our grandfather at the railway yard and watch the trains pass. He was not a churchgoer, but he saw to it that my Eamily made it there every Sunday. Sometime later he suffered a stroke, which left him partiallyparalyzed, and as a result, we were unable to attend church on a regular basis. This period of time would be one of the most crucial stages of my development.

Rededication
I was relieved, in a sense, at no longer being able to attend church, but I would feel the urge to go on my own every now and then. At age sixteen I began attending the church of a friend whose father was the pastor. It was a small storefront building with only my friend's family, myself, and another schoolmate as members. This went on for only several months before -the church closed down. After graduating from high school and entering the university I rediscovered my religious commitment and became fully immersed in Pentecostal teachings. I was baptized and "filled with the Holy Ghost," as the experience was then called. As a college student, I quickly became the pride of the church. Everyone had high hopes for me, and I was happy to once again be "on the road to salvation".
I attended church every time its doors would open. I studied the Bible for days and weeks at a time. I attended lectures given by the Christian scholars of my day, and I acknowledged my call to the ministry at the age of 20. I began preaching and became well known very quickly. I was extremely dogmatic and believed that no one could receive salvation unless they were of my church group. I categorically condemned everyone who had not come to know God the way I had cometo knowHim. I was taught that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and God Almighty were one and the samething. I was taught that our church did not believe in the trinity but that Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I tried to make myself understand it even though I had to admit that I really did not fully understand it. As far as I was concerned, it was the only doctrine that made sense to me. I admired the holy dress of the women and the pious behavior of the men. I enjoyed practicing a doctrine where women were required to dress in garments covering themselves completely, not painting their faces with makeup, and carrying themselves as true ambassadors of Christ. I was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had finally found the true path to eternal bliss. Iwould debate with anyone from a different church with different beliefs and would totally silence them with my knowledge of the Bible. I memorized hundreds of Biblical passages, and this became a trademark of my preaching. Yet, even though I felt assured of being on the right path, a part of me was still searching. I felt that there was an even higher truth to be attained.
I would meditate while alone and pray to God to lead me to the correct religion and to forgive me if what I was doing was wrong. I had never had any contact with Muslims. The only people I knew that claimed Islam as their religion were the followers of Elijah Muhammad, who were referred to by many as the "Black Muslims" or the "Lost-Found Nation." It was during this period in the late seventies that Minister Louis Farrakhan was well into rebuilding what was called "The Nation of Islam." Iwentto hear Minister Farrakhan speak at the invitation of a coworker and found it to be an experience that would change my life dramatically. I had never in my life heard another black man speak the way that he spoke. I immediately wanted to arrange a meeting with him to try to convert him to my religion. I enjoyed evangelizing, hoping to find lost souls to save from the Hellfire - no matter who they were.
After graduating from college I began to work on a full-time basis. As I was reaching the pinnacle of my ministry, the followers of Elijah Muhammad became more visible, and I appreciated their efforts in attempting to rid the black community of the evils that were destroying it from within. I beganto support them, in a sense, by buying their literature and even meeting with them for dialogue. I attended their study circles to find out exactly what they believed. As sincere as I knew many of them were, I could not buy the idea of God being a black man. I disagreed with their use of the Bible to support their position on certain issues. Here was a book that I knew very well, and I was deeply disturbed at what I deemed was their misinterpretation of it. I had attended locally supported Bible schools and had become quite knowledgeable in various fields of Bible study.
After about six years I moved to Texas and became affiliated with two churches. The first church was led by a young pastor who was inexperienced and not very learned. My knowledge of the Christian scriptures had by this time developed into something abnormal. I was obsessed with Biblical teachings. I began to look deeper into the scriptures and realized that I knew more than the present leader. As a show of respect, I left and joined another church in a different city where I felt that I could learn more. The pastor of this particular church was very scholarly. He was an excellent teacher but had some ideas that were not the norm in our church organization. He held somewhat liberal views, but I still enjoyed his indoctrination. I was soon to learn the most valuable lesson of my Christian life, which was "all that glitters is not gold." Despite its outward appearance,there were evils taking place that I never thought were possible in the Church. These evils caused me to reflect deeply, and I began questioning the teaching to which I was so dedicated.

Welcome to the Real Church World
I soon discovered that there was a great deal of jealousy prevalent in the ministerial hierarchy. Things had changed from that to which I was accustomed. Women wore clothing that I thought was shameful. People dressed in order to attract attention, usually from the opposite sex. I discovered just how great a part money and greed play in the operation of church activities. There were many small churches struggling, and they called upon us to hold meetings to help raise money for them. I was told that if a church did not have a certain number of members, then I was not to waste my time preaching there because I would not receive ample financial compensation. I then explained that I was not in it for the money and that I would preach even if there was only one member present... and I'd do it for free! This caused a disturbance. I started questioning those whom I thought had wisdom, only to find that they had been putting on a show. I learned that money, power and position were more important than teaching the truth about the Bible. As a Bible student, I knew full well that there were mistakes, contradictions and fabrications. I thought that people should be exposed to the truth about the Bible. The idea of exposing the people to such aspects of the Bible was a thought supposedly attributable to Satan. But I began to publicly ask my teachers questions during Bible classes, which none of them could answer. Not a single one could explain how Jesus was supposedly God, and how, at the same time, he was supposedly the Father, Son and Holy Ghost wrapped up into one and yet was not a part of the trinity. Several preachers finally had to concede that they did not understand it but that we were simply required to believe it.
Cases of adultery and fornication went unpunished. Some preachers were hooked on drugs and had destroyed their lives and the lives of their families. Leaders of some churches were found to be homosexuals. There were pastors even guilty of committing adultery with the young daughters of other church members. All of this coupled with a failure to receive answers to what I thought were valid questions was enough to make me seek a change. That change came when I accepted a job in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

A New Beginning
It was not long after arriving in Saudi Arabia that I saw an immediate difference in the lifestyle of the Muslim people. They were different from the followers of Elijah Muhammad and Minister Louis Farrakhan in that they were of all nationalities, colors and languages. I immediately expressed a desire to learn more about this peculiar brand of religion. I was amazed with the life of Prophet Muhammad and wanted to know more. I requested books from one of the brothers who was active in calling people to Islam. I was supplied with all of the books that I could possibly want. I read each and every one. I was then given the Holy Qur'an and read it completely several times within four months. I asked question after question and received satisfactory answers. What appealed to me was that the brothers were not keen on impressing me with their knowledge. If a brother did not know how to answer a question, he would tell me that he simply did not know and would have to check with someone who did. The next day he would always bring the answer. I noticed how humility played such a great role in the lives of these mysterious people of the Middle East.
I was amazed to see the women covering themselves from face to foot. I did not see any religious hierarchy. No one was competing for any religious position. All of this was wonderful, but how could I entertain the thought of abandoning a teaching that had followed me since childhood? What about the Bible? I knew that there is some truth in it even though it had been changed and revised countless numbers of times. I was then given a video cassette of a debate between Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and Reverend Jimmy Swaggart. After seeing the debate I immediately became a Muslim. (To view this debate click here – requires RealPlayer)
I was taken to the office of Shaykh 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baz to officially declare my acceptance of Islam. It was there that I was given sound advice on how to prepare myself for the long journey ahead. It was truly a birth from darkness into light. I wondered what my peers from the Church would think when they heard that I had embraced Islam. It was not long before I found out. I went back to the United States for vacation and was severely criticized for my "lack of faith." I was stamped with many labels - from renegade to reprobate. People were told by so-called church leaders not to even remember me in prayer. As strange as it may seem, I was not bothered in the least. I was so happy that Almighty God, Allah, had chosen to guide me aright that nothing else mattered.
Now I only wanted to become as dedicated a Muslim as I was a Christian. This, of course, meant study. I realized that a person could grow as much as they wanted to in Islam. There is no monopoly of knowledge - it is free to all who wish to avail themselves of the opportunities to learn. I was given a set of Saheeh Muslim as a gift from my Qur'an teacher. It was then that I realized the need to learn about the life, sayings and practices of Prophet Muhammad . I read and studied as many of the hadlth collections available in English as possible. I realized that my knowledge of the Bible was an asset that is now quite useful in dealing with those of Christian backgrounds. Life for me has taken on an entirely new meaning. One of the most profound attitude changes is a result of knowing that this life must actually be spent in preparation for life in the Hereafter. It was also a new experience to know that we are rewarded even for our intentions. If you intend to do good, then you are rewarded. Itwas quite different in the Church. The attitude wasthat "the path to Hell is paved with good intentions." There was no way to win. If you sinned,then you had to confess to the pastor, especially if the sin was a great sin, such as adultery. You were judged strictly by your actions.

The Present and Future
After an interview by the Al-Madinah newspaper I was asked about my present-day activities and plans for the future. At present, my goal is to learn Arabic and continue studying to gain greater knowledge about Islam. I am presently engaged in the field of da'wah and am called upon to lecture to non-Muslims who come from Christian backgrounds. If Allah, Almighty, spares my life, I hope to write more on the subject of comparative religion.
It is the duty of Muslims throughout the world to work to spread the knowledge of Islam. As one who has spent such a long time as a Bible teacher, I feel a special sense of duty in educating people about the errors, contradictions and fabricated tales of a book believed in by millions of people. One of the greatest joys is knowing that I do not have to engage in a great deal of dispute with Christians, because I was a teacher who taught most of the dispute techniques used by them. I also learned how to argue using the Bible to defend Christianity. And at the same time I know the counter arguments for each argument which we, as ministers, were forbidden by our leaders to discuss or divulge.

It is my prayer that Allah will forgive us all of our ignorance and guide us to the path leading to Paradise. All praise is due to Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon His last messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his family, companions, and those following true guidance.
For more such stories, see http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/
 
Shining One
Shining One 10 years ago

Hi Derek,
With that post you might offer the wonders of the Watchtower Society and one of their converts. Then try Mormonism, Hare Krishna. etc. Why not show us how wonderfull ALL OF THE CULTS ARE? Oh, also do not critisize ANY of them on their teachings as long as you are blowing the context! After all, to be critical of any religion means that you are now a BIGOT, by the convoluted definition accepted here. ONENESS PENTECOSTALISM is a cult, just like JW and the rest. So your clever little effort proves to lay a giant egg. LOL
Rex
 

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Muslim women turned into lesbians
by Paralipomenon 9 years ago 25 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Paralipomenon
Paralipomenon 9 years ago

I am currently studying Islam as an academic curiosity.
Really, the whole belief structure has me shaking my head when I come home. The part I'm at now involves the afterlife, ie. paradise.
Now other than the beautiful trees and fruit and rivers of water, milk, honey and wine (non-alcoholic) the biggest perk is the virgin women you get and perpetual virgins at that. So the two things that come to mind are:
1) If you are a Muslim woman, what are you going to do with all these virgins?
2) Where are these virgins coming from?
In other passages you are also offered the extensive use of beautiful servant boys and children as well to cover all sexual desire and perversions, but the virgins as I understand are to be married.
So does that make a Muslim woman in paradise at best bi-sexual and more likely a full blown lesbians? Or do the Muslim women look forward to being turned into one of the virgins in servitude for eternity.
Given the liberty that men have to treat women with, I think an eternity without men around would be heaven enough for a Muslim woman.
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 9 years ago

only if it is the will of Allah
 
minimus
minimus 9 years ago

Para, you think WAY too much.
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 9 years ago

made me look.
 
bigdreaux
bigdreaux 9 years ago

In other passages you are also offered the extensive use of beautiful servant boys and children as well to cover all sexual desire
is this really true? that sickens me they find this appealling.
 
aSphereisnotaCircle
aSphereisnotaCircle 9 years ago

I always wondered where all those virgins came form too.
It seems to me that they don't view women as actual human beings, just objects that Allah will mass produce for the chosen few.

And what the hell is up with the perpetual virgin thing? I can understand wanting them to be a virgin when you got them. But to be constant virgins? Why is sex with a virgin considered the ultimate?
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 9 years ago

Well, I found this article FWIW: http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/muslim_women.htm
Here is another view: http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/72_virgins_in_paradise/
And a few others:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamic_paradise.htm
http://www.slate.com/id/2160963/
And here is an article on the view that the original text spoke not of virgins in heaven but "white raisins":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,,631332,00.html
 
greendawn
greendawn 9 years ago

It is obviously not a very spiritual or healthy outlook, to centre everything around sex, it is very earthly and infernal but this apparently worked wonders to get the Arabs to fight for a war of expansion and carry the Moslem flag far and wide. Those were promises they could understand, to fight and die for.
It's just another religious manipulation akin to the one used by the JWs who also promise a paradise though it is to be located on earth and won't have any of those sexual trappings, sex with tens of beautiful women and good looking boys.
 
Ri
Ri 9 years ago

It's the new and improved "Global Inquirer" of JWD
 
Scully
Scully 9 years ago

Para:
After seeing your thread, the CBC noon report showed video footage of a crowd of men lining up outside a local mosque, seeking conversion to Islam.


 
coffee_black
coffee_black 9 years ago

 Why on earth would any woman want anything to do with Islam?
Coffee
 
oompa
oompa 9 years ago

Or do the Muslim women look forward to being turned into one of the virgins in servitude for eternity.
I don't get this eternal virgin thing. Aren't they one and done? Then they would have to go away, and more virgins brought in. Plus, sex with virgins is dang painful (for both).
now thinking of sex....oompa
 
Scully
Scully 9 years ago

I don't get this eternal virgin thing. Aren't they one and done? Then they would have to go away, and more virgins brought in.
I guess Muslim heaven is where all the plastic surgeons who do cootchie repair end up.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 9 years ago

Is it possible that the Prophet of the moon god, Allah, was a LUNATIC?
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 9 years ago


A few Muslim lesbians sporting some very naughty swimwear!
 
tremoka
tremoka 9 years ago

Have you seen the international film Fire by Deepa Mehta?  oh ya it's gotta have the fundamentalists steaming! hahaha
 
cultswatter
cultswatter 9 years ago

Jeezuz .I bet they use a lot of antiperspirant!!
 
monophonic
monophonic 9 years ago

steve martin wrote an awesome shouts and murmurs column on this for the new yorker about six months ago, about a muslim who killed infidels and got to heaven for his reward of the 99 virgins, it was the dialogue b/t each virgin and him as he had sex with them.
one was texting on her blackberry, waiting for him to finish.
another made fun of his 'size'.
another was a fat middle aged woman.
man, i wish i kept that...i was one of the more brilliant satires i had read in a while.
 
cultswatter
cultswatter 9 years ago

It can be screaming hot outside but muslim women never small bad. That's because they have a bar of irish spring soap under each arm pit
 
fresia
fresia 9 years ago

It is a male dominated, chavenistic religion, and they have no desire to give any women pleasure, they would have their clitoris taken out, and they can still be vigins, so the women would have no sexual desire, only desire to be loved and respected and that to is only for the male but by force and demand.
 

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Muslim women turned into lesbians
by Paralipomenon 9 years ago 25 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Gregor
Gregor 9 years ago

The men have sex with these virgins but they stay virgins? Maybe they're doing it wrong. Someone needs to show them the virgina, it's harder to find than a goats ass.
 
aSphereisnotaCircle
aSphereisnotaCircle 9 years ago

very funny Gregor
 
shell69
shell69 9 years ago

I Agree. I've believed for some itme now that the muslim religion is far too concerned with sex.
Following a discussion wiht a muslim neighbour once, (very nice eloquent lady I might add), she said that she would dream of having a converstion with my husband unless her head was covered. Her reason? So that she could talk to my husband and 'him' not see her with lust in his eyes! That she would like him to talk to her 'face', so her body and hair is covered up!
I explained, very politley that I trust my husband completly to talk and meet women in his day to day life, and that actually I found her ideas rather insulting to my husband, whom I have known for over 20 years, to insinuate that he counldn't control his uges!!!!
Just another example of a barm pot religion taking everything to extremes
Shell
 
Gill
Gill 8 years ago

There are a lot of very crazy people in the world.
It appears that the more religious a person is, the more 'crazy' and obsessive they are!
Many religions are obsessed with sex! The WTBTS to name but one, but the religion of Islam certainly believes that men are so degraded and base that they cannot even look at a woman with decent intentions.
Many believe that Islam really degrades women. But I believe that Islam really degrades men by insinuating that not a single one of them is not a potential rapist! Very sad reflection on their view of themselves!
 
greendawn
greendawn 8 years ago

It's interesting to know that in Saudi Arabian secondary schools most teenagers turn to homosexual sex as a means to release sexual tension since contact with the opposite sex is strictly forbidden. That's where men and women turn to homosexuality until they get the opportunty to get married.
Once natural sexual outlets are blocked people will turn to different ones. Just imagine Saudi males don't often get to see a woman's body since they are dressed in burkas outside their homes.
alt
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 8 years ago

It's interesting to know that in Saudi Arabian secondary schools most teenagers turn to homosexual sex as a means to release sexual tension since contact with the opposite sex is strictly forbidden. That's where men and women turn to homosexuality until they get the opportunty to get married.
 Honestly greendawn your posts are shocking at times. I've heard that a higher incidence of homosexual behaviour has been noted in strict islamic society but that is a far, far cry from claiming that "most teenagers turn to homosexual sex".
 

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Topic Summary
i am currently studying islam as an academic curiosity.
really, the whole belief structure has me shaking my head when i come home.
the part i'm at now involves the afterlife, ie.



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Muslims Influenced by WBTS
by cameo-d 8 years ago 20 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower bible
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cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

Scientific Study of Religion volume 9 number 4/winter1970

Black Muslim leaders appear to have been influenced in the early 1930's by eschatalogical teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses . Several details of doctrine are too similar to be coincidental. There is some evidence of direct contact between the two groups. It is possible that the cryptic ambiguity of the Watchtower doctrines enhanced their appeal to the Black Muslims.

Watchtower Influences on Black Muslim Eschatology:
An Exploratory Story

William A. Maesen
Department of Sociology
Lewis-St. Francis Colleges

Introduction. This study explores the possibility that Black Muslim leaders were influenced in the early 1930's by certain eschatological teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses). The paper first presents several similarities of doctrine which appear to be too close in specific detail not to suggest direct influence. Then, evidence is presented suggesting contact between the Watchtower Society and the Nation of Islam sect and the possibility of influence of the former on the latter. Finally, an interpretation is offered as to why Black Muslim leaders may have been influenced by Watchtower teaching.

Doctrinal Similarities

The doctrines to be cited here are drawn principally from the works of Joseph F. Rutherford, second president of the Watchtower Society, and Elijah Muhammad , leader of the Black Muslims. These are official, authoritative sources for beliefs of the respective movements, at least at the time of the early 1930's. (Since the time of Rutherford's writings, the Watchtower Society has made some changes in its belief system.)

At least one other writer has noted the doctrinal similarities (Essien-Udon 1962: 403n.); another has hinted at suspected adaptations (Martin 1968: 262). An informant told me that many black muslims are aware of the resemblances between the two, since the influences are often topics in the question-answer sessions of at least one Black Muslim Mosque of Islam. Furthermore, the fact that Black Muslims explicitly and vehemently deny any causal relationship implies at least their recognition of the possibility of such influence.

Society for the Scientific Study of Religion
Website:http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/journal.asp?ref=0021-8294&site=1
Publisher Description
The Society for the Scientific Study of Religion was founded in 1949 by scholars in religion and social science. Its purpose is to stimulate and communicate significant scientific research on religious institutions and religious experience . Scholars from all fields of study who are interested in the scientific exploration of religion are invited to join the Society. Membership in the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion gives scholars the opportunity to share their research and ideas with other scholars.
Contact Information
Blackwell Publishers, Inc.
 350 Main Street, Malden, MA 02148, USA
108 Cowley Road, Oxford, OX4 JF, UK
Phone: 1-800-835-6770
Fax: 781-388-8232
Email: KMitchell@bos.blackwellpublishing.com

Get ready to see these religions become syncretic. If they all have common demnominators, as they do, it will be a simple twist to bring similarities to the forefront and focus on this. It is a well laid plan for the new one world religion.

The JWs will never be persecuted as this transition takes place. It will be the EX-JWs and the EX-Christians (who have realized they have been duped by these falsehoods masquerading as religions) who will be persecuted as the anti-christ. That means US!


 
OBVES
OBVES 8 years ago

 I am not from Jehovahs Witness Organization but what I know the Watchtower teaches I can say the Muslim religion is of different type religion and it is not in line with the true teachings of the Bible.
What I feel is that in those years 1930s the Bible Students were on the move and known very much by the active and attractive teachings which could be a cause some other people tried to imitate them to some degree to keep his followers in and pull in new followers and be also attractive to the outside world.
The predictions of the end of the world keep believing people in high mood and give them energy and endurance .
I know of that as I have spent years dealing with the predictions of the end of the world. The present prediction I have for 2011 AD already energizes my life and I see a difference .
The true christianity is inseperable from the end-of- the world predictions.If you don't deal with the end-time predictins your religion might be dead.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

sorry for going off topic Cameo. I tried to edit, but to no avail. I get carried away, sometimes because to be quite honest, I am fed up with seeing what Islam, is doing to the world, on the net. Every day in copiuos amounts, I see this. I was was truly efected, by the Geert Wilders film Fitna, with the merciless beheadings and shutdown of free speech. The History of Islam is grusome, past and present and I feel people must say more about it. Especially the moderate Muslims. I didn't mean to take over, and shit on your thread.
I have nothing against black folks either, I just find it puzzling why a black man would be a part of that and give the white man crap for putting him in slavery, when the history of Islam for blacks was nothing but slavery. You should see the clip of how outraged the blacks were in Zanzibar and what they did. We get called racist, and they are killing white farmers left right and center in Africa. I just find it upsetting. They are valid questions and it is a real situation that I'm sure other black folks are angry at too. I hope!
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

sorry for going off topic Cameo. I tried to edit, but to no avail
It's Ok Ty. It was interesting to see your reaction. I did not write the article, I only cited it. Your reaction was to the article but not to my hypothesis.
The point I am trying to make is that if there is indeed some influence from Watchtower embedded in the Muslim religion, then there must be a common point in there somewhere.
If there is a common thread that can be found among all religions, would this not indicate a basis for an eventual merger?
As this is the goal of the "one world religion" could it be that these wheels were set in motion long ago?
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

My opinion is that for the most part, aside from having in common the desire to dominate the globe theocratically, (one wants to do it with the sword, and the other with magazines}.
I'm not a religios scholar, but they are both high control groups or even cults. The fact that neither, will bend in their doctrine, means that change and flexibility for both religions, is slow, if not non non-existant. There will never be any mergers or compromise.
If an assimilation ever did take place, I would have to say, that the one with force would probably be the winner. In actual fact. The Jehovah's Witness doctrine, derrives more, from old testament and montheistic worship of Jehovah. What the witnesses are, is the very latest form of Judaism.
Everyone knows, Islam despises the Jews, so I would have to say that would mean certain death for witnesses as well, if push ever came to shove.
Just to show you how different Islam really is, and has nothing to do with the roots of Judaism, check this clip out. As I say, I'm no scholar of this religion but it does not merge with anyone. Islam is a political movement on earth. The witnesses is a theocratic movement for a future government, that has nothing to do with this world we're living in right now.


True roots os Islam
 
Octarine Prince
Octarine Prince 8 years ago

Canadian dickheads. SMH
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

al-Khidr, the Green One, Tests the Patience of Moses (Arabic areas) al-Khidr, the Green One (Swahili: Hishiri; Fulfulde: Halilu), a mythic hero, was the spokesman for the divine. He was associated with the sea, commanding the obedience of the four quarters; he was the deputy of God on the sea and his representative on the earth. He revealed esoteric doctrines to men of exceptional sanctity.
al-Khidr became immortal when he drank from the Well of Life.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O68-alKhdrthGrnnTststhPtncfMs.html

God's deputy?
God's representative on earth?
Do they have a form of FDS I wonder?

I have found various spellings for this. In ancient literature it is Al Khador, Al Khidor, Al Khidr.
I do NOT intend this as a political discussion. I would only like to discuss the theological impacts of this and would like to present more information on this topic as it applies to scriptural comparisons and any commonality.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Cameo. This Identity of Islam is "The Nation of Islam." it is a political movement and is deeply intertwined as part of the religion. This is why many Muslims are incapable of integration. It must be considered as a major difference from most other religions with the agenda of global domination. In the here and now. If you overlook this, you might as well try to discuss Nazism as as a social club. The implications are staggering.
What do you think it has in common. Get serious dude! Take a look around the globe. Fighting in Pakistan, Fighting in the Sudan, Fighting in Thailand, riots in Brittain, riots in France, riots in Ireland, riots in Sweeden, riots in Norway, riots in Holland. Fighting in Bosnia, fighting in Chechnya, and maybe a few hundred other areas. Open your eyes. How many religions freak out over a cartoon and give death threats. What other religion abuses women and gives them no rights. It is a religion of intimidation, fear and coerscion. Have you been living in some other dimension? Cutting hands off for stealing. Having multiple wives and executions for homosexuals. JESUS CHRIST!! Do you see a difference!!
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

What other religion abuses women and gives them no rights.
Watchtower. (disprove it)
It is a religion of intimidation, fear and coerscion
So is Watchtower. (disprove it)
it is a political movement and is deeply intertwined as part of the religion
So is Watchtower. (disprove it)
....any establishment of a Kingdom and "god's government" is a political movement. When JWs say "I already voted. I voted for Jehovah's kingdom" are they not implying a political bent in the religion?
you might as well try to discuss Nazism as as a social club
Definition of Nazi social club:
5 meetings a week and you better show up or the enforcers come knocking
everyone must be on the same page; robots must answer questions with same phrases/ standard answers..i.e. "imperfect men" "wait on Jehovah"
No deviation. We must be like marching soldiers in giving over our minds to the cause.
anyone not in this club does not always deserve truthful answers. Lying is approved for your convenience.(becomes a secret society club)
If an "informed study" (initiate) rejects our teaching, god approves that you should hate them with the "godly hate"
anyone who betrays the club and its principles are subject to death by invisibility. And if you associate with those invisibles, then you will be terminated and declared invisible, too.
Sound familiar?
This Identity of Islam is "The Nation of Islam."
If Jehovah Witnesses believe that they will be the only ones to survive Armageddon and that they alone have the privelige of starting a new world, isn't that rather nationalistic?
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

What's the matter. No ones got any balls? Now Octarine. You can take your little insult back. Lets see your genious! Rub me the wrong way, and I'll take your intellectual liver out, and have it with fava beans.
You wanna know about similarities. Here's one for you. Islam is like the witnesses in theocratic warfare. " Lieing for the cause" That's what witnesses do,and that's what Islam does. I don't know if I am spelling this correctly,but in arabic if is called tawqfique. That means,when you look around,and see nothing but violence created by Muslims, your brain takes the information and says " Wow, what a violent religion!" but when you ask a Muslim, They will say, My brother, this is a religion of peace and love. They keep doing this until they are literally giving it to you up the ass! Wake the fuck UP morons!!
In theocratic warfare, they also have the Hadithe. This book is secondary to the Koran. It's a get out of jail free card. The Imams,are very careful to hide all the ugly misdeeds of Mohamed, and this little book, helps to cloud the issues. Kinda like the contradictions in the bible, where you can read anything you want into it.
When the pope was going to visit Turkey and quoted an ancient,in saying that Islam was spread with the sword. There was outrage among the Muslims. Not because this was a lie. Just because you arn't suppose to let that absolute fact,enter your consciousness. The intimidation is just a form of dumming you down.
The witnesses have the same dumming down. Shunning, which is very hurtful and abusive is called a loving action to bring you back to the fake love of the Org.
So the big differtence is, between the two. They both get their pound of flesh,but one is more violent than the other.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Bud! There's nothing to disprove. By the Neptunes beard, we are in full agreement. I'm glad to see your thinking now.
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

I was interested in following up on this "green man" thing. It seems to have a connection to "christianity". Here's what I found:
Green Men
Green Man of the chapel Green Man of the chapel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosslyn_Chapel

The profusion of carved symbolism is extraordinary throughout the chapel, ranging from biblical allegory to pagan symbolism. One of the best-known images is of the Green Man, of which there are at least 103 representations inside the chapel alone, with an additional number on the exterior and roof as well. Art historians have noted that Rosslyn Chapel has the greatest number of Green Man images of any medieval chapel in Europe.
Green Man carvings are also found in ancient eastern temples, in the Apo Kayan area of Borneo, the chapels of Dhankar Gompa in the Himalayas, in the temples of Kathmandu and in the Jain temples of Ranakpur, and in Roman buildings. In short, the Green Man is a universal theme with very early roots.
-----------------
Given that we now know for certain that Rosslyn Chapel was built by the St Clair family specifically as a Christian edifice it seems clear that the Green Men within the chapel were, by 1446, no longer pagan but had been adopted as a Christian symbol.
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/the_green_man.htm
------------
Do you think there is a common thread somewhere in this?
Is Green Man indeed a "universal theme"?
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Well Cameo. You sure get around. It may well indeed. I have looked at many things on the net, and this is the first I've heard of it. I will check it out. Different cultures seems to have some kind of strange background in their early begingings especially in India. The book of Enoch seems to have similar references to strange beings but then again, even the bible does. In the book of Ezekial. You know what I'm talking about, of course. You are a smart cookie. Just remember. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, and I too, can run afoul , as you have seen, but navigation my freind! You are changing the topic of your own thread. No meaness or harm intended bud.
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

You are changing the topic of your own thread
Not intending to, thanks for bringing me back to point.
It's just that as I explore this, one thing seems to lead to another.
I cannot find much info on how *specifically* Muslim teachings have been influenced by Watchtower. I would like to know that and wondered if anyone here was more familiar.
I guess I am taking stabs to find a common link that would tie world religions together in order to enable a one world religion to develop.
That is really the thought behind my search.
Here is another link that runs throughout:
Abrahamic religions are monotheistic faiths — such as, Judaism, Islam and Christianity — that recognise a spiritual tradition identified with Abraham. [1] [2] [3] Other religions that identify in this way, such as the Bahá'í Faith and Druze, are also sometimes included. [4] Abrahamic religions account for more than half of the world's total population. Today, there are around 3.8 billion followers of various Abrahamic religions. [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Well, you know my freind, perhaps you are looking for a grand unification theroy, that will tie all things together, as is sought for, in physics. To me, this is a noble but futile venture. Science deals with facts and provable data. Religion deals with faith, based on loose assertions and assumptions. Differing backgrounds and the lies of rewritten histories to the conquered, is the farthest from the truth you will ever get. You must rely on your gut, and raw instinct for truth, with no bias and with provable data. Regardless of whether you feel comfortable with the results or not.
In our society, thoughts that differ from the common, are frowned upon. This is a very lonely venture indeed. It is an uphill battle, because human nature, is designed to accept the path of least resistance. It is therfore imperative, that one constantly does a reality check on oneself, as affirmation for things that are not commomly accepted. Of course strange and uncommon veiws will be ostracized. That which is uncommon does not comform to societal norms, just as copernicus and Galileo discovered, regardless of the truth and impact to society.
Things that seemed outrageous 500 years ago are now commonplace. This is the dilema of anyone that dares to see things in a different manner. They are in fact, martyrs, that are ahead of their time.
My gut tells me, that the commonality you seek in religion, does not exist. This is because, each religion is dear to the beleiver, and an investment has been made. This means no compromise. The only answer to this, in my opinion, is the abolition of religion. It kills creativity and weighs down the soul. It has in subjection the freedom of exploration that the human spirit craves. All things must be seen through the prism of a beleif that has no grounds in the reality of life.
I do not discourage you from your venture however. You will see this for yourself. It will take it's course, if you dare to pioneer it further.
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago

a grand unification theroy, that will tie all things together
Maybe it will come about through compromise within all religions.
For example, just look how quickly old traditions are changing. Religious views and practices can change overnight.

Landmark new Shariah law gives UK Muslim women rights
Religion News Blog, Amsterdam, Netherlands
Aug. 9, 2008 News Summarywww.religionnewsblog.com
Is this the beginning of a new European Islam?

The contract itself is very specific. The husband has to agree not to:
• abuse his wife/child(ren) verbally, emotionally, physically, or sexually
• be absent from the marital home for more than 60 days unless by agreement
• withhold money towards his wife/family
• transmit disease
• interfere with the wife’s property
In return, the wife agrees to abide by all of that as well - except for the provision not to withhold money from the household.

Earlier you said: What other religion abuses women and gives them no rights
So, what do you think now???

And what does this say to all of us about the future of government regulated religions???
 
Satanus
Satanus 8 years ago

'Is Green Man indeed a "universal theme"?'
The green man is a vestigial pagan image. Christianity expunged most paganism, amalgamated some as it marched across europe. While the green man survived for a bit longer, he's gone from christianity.
S
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Well you see Cameo, I'm glad these efforts are being made by "our" culture, to bring a 7th century ideology, out of the stone age. Holland is a very liberal and pragmatic society. If this works(and I'd be suprised.) It will certainly meet with stiff opposition from Imams and hate preachers and would most certainly be a first in Europe. Holland is doing this, for their very survival by the way.
I think the Dutch Have it right, by trying to liberate the women of Islam, but they are going against 1400 years of absolute non-change and authorities which the men have long enjoyed.
But let me ask you this. Do you think the modern world and progress of the rest of the human race should be making concessions and regress to something non progressive.
Cameo, if you came from a cult, known as this witnesses, then you should know very well, that even a milder cult will make no concessions for anyone and never change unless forceis used. Common sense shows that the nature of cults do not bend to mainstream mentalities. This board is full of the broken bones of people who now gather together, with all their wisdom and knowledge to refute and give dignity to it's victims. Even then, it takes years before those victims can see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Holland was suprized. They took in many immigrants figuring, that those who were oppressed under Islam would enjoy the freedoms of Holland. But they most certainly did not. Have you not seen all the placards carried by Muslim protesters in a free countries that take them in. There is no appreciation. Freedom go to hell! We want danish blood! Prepare for the real Holocaust! Bomb Bomb Denmark. Death to America. What part of that do people not understand?
I sincerly beleive that these people can not be reasoned with. They have formed, no go police areas all over Europe setting cars and buildings on fire. Do you read the news or are you sleep walking into a nightmare like the rest of the world.
Do you think all these no go areas will embrace freedom. We are hated. DO YOU UNDERSTAND! These areas didn't come about by accident. They are all strategic areas that Islam sends Imams too to preach hate.
Multiculturalism has failed. Originally in 1973 deals were made with the Saudis, by the French becuse they needed the oil. Part of that agreement was to promote Islam and never say anything negative about it. The Media has to watch every word they say now because of this and the truth has been buried.
If you think this little move in Holland is going to work, your wrong. Geert Wilders and Hirsi Ali need bodygaurds 24/7 so that they don't get their friggin heads cut off or get knifed like Theo van Gogh.
I dare you to look at the problem straight in the eye. Go on the net and see the massive extent of this problem. Don't just pick up one article in a tiny country and say wow look at this.
It's like your picking up a bubble gum wrapper and tossing it in the bin and saying. Look what I did for the enviornment!
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Edited . I was going to show you examples all over Europe and the the rape and crime stats to go with it, but so long as you wear rose coloured glasses it won't matter. You should research it yourself
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 8 years ago



 

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Muslims Influenced by WBTS
by cameo-d 8 years ago 20 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower bible
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Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Are you saying that my refined logic, has weighed so heavily on your mind, that you have turned into a green Egyptian? Sorry Cameo.
My advice on this one. Go to your nearest Shoppers Drug Mart. Ask for the cosmetics section. What you will be looking for, is the flesh tone foundations.
This will at least get you through in public areas until science can find a way to get the normal colour back in your face.
As for the culture, well, theirs nothing wrong with being Egytian. It's just that, today egyptians dress a little differently. But who knows maybe you'll be able to revive an old fashion. These things have a way of coming back in style you know.
 

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Topic Summary
scientific study of religion volume 9 number 4/winter1970.
several details of doctrine are too similar to be coincidental.
there is some evidence of direct contact between the two groups.



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i born muslim just two year ago come be a JW.
by faith in hatyai thailand 8 years ago 25 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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faith in hatyai thailand
faith in hatyai thailand 8 years ago

Dear , friend
i am gino alen from songkhla Thailand, when i born i have muslim stamp. and steel when i am 30 year old, my belived is very perfect, in mean time one day one jw pooiner met me and i start study bible first time when i am 30 year and 2 month, This is very intresting for share with all, every muslim belived bible, but 99% no see bible, only speak with you i belived . i think before i am just PART TIME muslim. Now i am very happy with my life, and my mind more strong with jehovah, and he is only the creator .
i hope a ever lasting life,and we are stay near the time.
bye and take care.
love brother and sister.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 8 years ago

Hello Gino
I was born a JW and came to be a Muslim one year ago. Small world!
Take care.
~Merry
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 8 years ago

Welcome gino
I hope you will continue to read, learn and post. Look forward to hearing more about you.
Nic'
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 8 years ago

Hi Gino, Welcome to the forum.
I was born to Jehovah's Witness parents.
I didn't join and I don't believe the Watchtower has the truth.
Now, my father won't answer my questions when I ask him to prove his beliefs.
Instead of answering my questions he says' "these people are Bible scholars", or "these people are spirit directed", or "because it's the Truth".
Those words don't prove anything. If he really had the truth, he would be able to answer my questions.
Why is it that I can look up the kings of Babylon on a WTCD, get the lengths of their reigns and add them up from 539 to Nebuchadnessar and get 605 for the start of his reign?
My father cannot tell me the answer.
Can you?

Cheers
Chris
 
blueviceroy
blueviceroy 8 years ago

meh..I'm not buying this
 
sass_my_frass
sass_my_frass 8 years ago



Whatever floats your boat.
 
avengers
avengers 8 years ago

my mind more strong with jehovah, and he is only the creator .
i hope a ever lasting life,and we are stay near the time
Just for your information:
People on this site are mostly ex Jehovah's Witnesses.
The Watchtower has predicted the End so many times. Not one time it came true.
Watch out what you do. Religion is a snare and a racket.
Andy
 
Magick
Magick 8 years ago

i born i have muslim stamp. and steel when i am 30 year old. one day one jw pooiner met me
speaking of stamps this is a weird one:
alt

man, i think the first time i stole something i was about 6...at least you waited til you were 30.
yep, i've met some "jw pooiners" before too. i always carried around some baby wipes and an
extra pair of undies just in case. those pooiners can get a bit messy.
 
Hellrider
Hellrider 8 years ago

Hi Faith, I was born a jw and became an atheist 17 years ago. I stole a candy bar when I was 11.
 
jelcat8224
jelcat8224 8 years ago

hmmm ... I also went the other way (as merry did). very interesting.
jelcat
 
observador
observador 8 years ago

i am gino alen from songkhla Thailand, when i born i have muslim stamp. and steel when i am 30 year old, my belived is very perfect, in mean time one day one jw pooiner met me and i start study bible first time when i am 30 year and 2 month, This is very intresting for share with all, every muslim belived bible, but 99% no see bible, only speak with you i belived . i think before i am just PART TIME muslim. Now i am very happy with my life, and my mind more strong with jehovah, and he is only the creator . i hope a ever lasting life,and we are stay near the time.
Hello Gino. Hey, your post reads like the Bible in the original languages, that is, one has to put a lot of words in its "mouth" to try to make any sense of it.
So... just for fun, I am putting myself in the shoes of a translator, ok? Just an exercise in mind reading. Let's see how the translation comes out.
I am Gino Alen from Songkhla, Thailand. When I was born, I received a muslim stamp. I stole for the first time when I was 30 years old; I remember clearly. Shortly after that, a JW pioneer met me, and I started a Bible study when I was 30 years and 2 months old. What an interesting experience to share with you all! Every muslim believes in the Bible, but 99% has no Bible; they only speak about it. I think that prior to becoming a JW, I was just a PART TIME muslim. Now I have a very happy life, and am certain that worshiping Jehovah, who is the only Creator, is the right thing to do. I have the hope of everlasting life, and we have to stay close as the time gets near.
How did I do, Gino? Regardless, I hope this strenghs your faith in the Bible.
Take care.
 
Gregor
Gregor 8 years ago

Another one of these. I wish there was some way to put this stuff on my tomato plants. I'd have a bumper crop.
 
new boy
new boy 8 years ago

No she is real...It does say...Jehovah's Witnesses Discussion Forum.
 
Gregor
Gregor 8 years ago

Real, as in dead Linda?
 
changeling
changeling 8 years ago

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think this one's a troll.
changeling
 
hubert
hubert 8 years ago

I tink you Trev reborn mebe?
 
observador
observador 8 years ago

I stole for the first time when I was 30 years old
But apparently you have been a liar for much longer.
I was just a PART TIME muslim
If you had been a FULL TIME muslim, I bet that JW pioneer would never be able to convert you.
 
horrible life
horrible life 8 years ago

when i born i have muslim stamp. and steel when i am 30 year old, my belived is very perfect,
I was born muslim, and still was at age 30. Not steal or stole. LOL
 
brinjen
brinjen 8 years ago

I'm calling 'troll', this poster starts threads, and never returns to them. He's also ignoring the posts informing him this is an apostate forum.
 
sweetstuff
sweetstuff 8 years ago

Umm, yup, alert just went off, beep beep.
 

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i born muslim just two year ago come be a JW.
by faith in hatyai thailand 8 years ago 25 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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horrible life
horrible life 8 years ago

I definitely vote troll. I offered him a chance to come to America and be my pool boy. And I got no answer. So it is a positive troll alert. Who could resist this???
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-----------------------------------------------------
 
NotaNess
NotaNess 8 years ago

I'll bet this guy would agree with me.......
 
Warlock
Warlock 8 years ago


Dear , friend
i am gino alen from songkhla Thailand, when i born i have muslim stamp. and steel when i am 30 year old, my belived is very perfect, in mean time one day one jw pooiner met me and i start study bible first time when i am 30 year and 2 month, This is very intresting for share with all, every muslim belived bible, but 99% no see bible, only speak with you i belived . i think before i am just PART TIME muslim. Now i am very happy with my life, and my mind more strong with jehovah, and he is only the creator .
i hope a ever lasting life,and we are stay near the time.
bye and take care.
love brother and sister.
Take care and on your way out, don't let the J.W.D. door, hit you on the A.S.S.
Love and kisses,
Warlock
 
changeling
changeling 8 years ago

NotaNess: That should tell you something...
changeling
 
bite me
bite me 8 years ago

you mean... there is someone just messing around? I wonder if it is an actual, current, practicing JW playing on the internet. That would go against their rules though, wouldn't?
 
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 8 years ago

Horrible Life:
I'll be your pool boy and Im only the next state over!!  Hope to see you and some others again at another apostafest again soon!

LRG
 

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Topic Summary
dear , friend.
i am gino alen from songkhla thailand, when i born i have muslim stamp.
and steel when i am 30 year old, my belived is very perfect, in mean time one day one jw pooiner met me and i start study bible first time when i am 30 year and 2 month, this is very intresting for share with all, every muslim belived bible, but 99% no see bible, only speak with you i belived .



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Who Is Merry? I was born in 1965, the same year that
was assassinated. My father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when I was about 18 months old. Mom was a devout 3 rd generation JW widow, about 20 years younger than her new husband. Dad was a new JW convert, twice married and divorced before, with psychological problems (probably stemming from his service in WW II) which would only become unpleasantly evident later on. I was always a stranger in my own family. My grandmother thought of me as a "changeling.” No one could ever quite figure me out. I was definitely a bit fey, always wandering off into the hills, talking to trees and rocks and wee beasties, talking to God, trying to figure out whether or not things were really what they seemed or if everything was just some kind of dream. I loved to read, write and sketch. My favorite books were those written by Lewis Carroll and Edgar Allen Poe. Favorite shows were the Addam's Family and Star Trek. I even tried to tutor myself in logic at the age of 12 using a college textbook I picked up at a yard sale. I grew up in a small logging town in northern Idaho in an area that had a reputation (and statistics to back it up) for being one of the worst in terms of child abuse. I think spousal abuse was not far behind. My poor mother was shocked by the barbaric attitudes she observed while going door to door when she first moved there from her family's ranching community in Washington State. Growing up, I had the strange idea that I was supposed to have been born knowing and understanding almost everything and that there was something wrong with me because I didn't. I was ashamed to ask questions, to admit I didn't know, so I researched most things on my own. I always felt like I was struggling to catch up with everyone else even though I usually tested in the 98 th to 99 th percentile of my age group. My fear of openly asking questions was further exacerbated by the discovery that as a JW there are certain questions that it is simply not ok to ask or even think about, at least not more than once. Even so, I was insatiably curious and had to question everything in spite of any shame or censure. Fortunately for me, my mother had taught me to read from the Bible before I started primary school and also taught me how to use the dictionaries and encyclopedias we had. Her mother had been a schoolteacher in the 1930s. We all thrived on studying and researching, but the difference between us was that it was important to them to use only Watch Tower published or approved materials while it was equally important to me not to restrict my resources. I believed what Millions Now Living Will Never Die(one of the booklets my great grandfather read that caused him to become the first JW/Bible Student in our family and in the area where he lived) said: "Every man should be persuaded in his own mind and no man should permit himself to be deterred from examining a question based upon the Bible because a clergyman or any one else makes the unsupported assertion that it is dangerous or unworthy of consideration. Error always seeks the dark, while truth is always enhanced by the light. Error never desires to be investigated. Light always courts a thorough and complete investigation." Unfortunately for my mother, that was sort of my undoing as a JW. I often noticed inaccuracies, contradictions and what seemed to me to be intellectual dishonesty in the study materials that were used during the multiple weekly meetings. That, coupled with some teachings that just didn't make sense to me, definitely eroded my trust in the self-proclaimed "faithful and discrete slave" and the spiritual food they were dispensing. But I persevered as this was my family's whole world, and I didn't want to lose them or lose out on the future paradise we were promised. Perhaps I would find I was mistaken in my doubts and so should just do as we were so often counseled--wait on Jehovah to clear up any misunderstandings in doctrine or organizational problems. So I allowed myself to be pressured into being baptized when I was 17. As most everyone here knows, everything was highly restricted and controlled in the JW world--information, activities, speech. Because Christians are to be no part of the world, higher education was discouraged and preaching was to be our career, although an unpaid one. We were supposed to work just enough to get by. Giving to charity was discouraged and involvement in politics was forbidden. Even though they would say many things were a matter of conscience they made sure you knew exactly what your conscience was supposed to be telling you. A woman was required to defend herself against a rapist but wasn't allowed to learn how to defend herself as that would be violating the scripture about learning war no more. We were also supposed to let ourselves and our children die before taking a blood transfusion because of their interpretation of the Biblical restriction on eating blood, something also forbidden to Muslims who do not restrict its lifesaving medical use however. We were required to accept as absolute truth whatever the faithful and discrete slave class told us, no matter how many times they changed their mind or were proven wrong. They rules they applied to other religions to marked them as "false" were not applicable to them. Members, who called each other "brother" and "sister" as Muslims also do, were incouraged to report each other's infractions to the elders for counseling and discipline. Elders could counsel you, restrict your privileges in the congregation, announce publicly that you had been reproved or announce that you were no longer a member so that no one would be allowed to fellowship with you. We were supposed to be very careful what we said or did lest we "stumble" a brother or "sister" yet had to hide things like spousal abuse, child abuse and molestation so we wouldn't look bad to outsiders. It was after I saw a documentary entitled Suffer the Little Children exposing the problem of child molestation coverups in the Society that I went online to see if there was a follow-up on those who had shared their stories. That led me to Silent Lambs, Free Minds, and the Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum. The well-researched, well-documented information I found there confirmed the suspicions and experiences of my childhood and young adulthood among the Witnesses. But what I read did not cause me to leave. I had already done that years earlier when the elders of our respective congregations had refused to marry my boyfriend and I and even refused to study the Family Life book with us to help us prepare for marriage. So we eloped and struck out on our own. It was only natural for me to eventually gravitate to a more "spiritual," less structured form of religion as I had always been very mystically inclined and hated restrictions. So I became an eclectic Pagan panentheist and experimented with Wicca, feminist spirituality, Native American shamanism, and so forth. I practiced natural healing methods for myself and became a Reiki Master and licensed Massage Therapist. After about 7 years my husband and I were in a serious car accident and then were divorced. A few years after that we tried to reconcile and had a surprise baby together. We planned on remarrying, but as he was unable to control his drinking and refused to get help, I decided against it. Then, when our daughter was about 4 years old, I had what I believed was a mystical experience with Christ and became a nondenominational unorthodox Christian. I still didn't feel I could accept or trust the whole Bible, but I also didn't feel I had to. Certain key doctrines continued to baffle me on a rational level but the emotions involved were so powerful that I could overlook whatever didn't fully make sense. I threw myself into studying and meditating on the Bible and other Christian writings. I bought several versions of the Bible, even a big expensive Interlinear. I still had some of my old JW publications to compare with also. On the whole I was happy and content attending a nearby Presbyterian Church with a very nice female pastor. Then I made a new friend online, a Muslim man from Turkey. Well, all I knew about Turkey was what I had learned from watching Midnight Express, and all I knew about Muslims was what I had heard in the news, to which I hadn't actually paid a great deal of attention. Even after 9/11. Don't ask me why. I have always been insatiably curious, as I said, wanting to learn at least something about everything, from the inside out if at all possible, and yet Islam barely registered on my radar. Just enough for me to think to myself as we chatted, “What if he's a terrorist? What if he's cruel to women and children? I wonder if he wants a harem?” Friends even warned me that you can't trust Muslims because they are taught to lie in the cause of Allah. Yikes. In spite of all that, and in spite of the language barrier, we gradually became good friends. And every so often he would ask if I had read the meaning of the Qur'an yet. No, I don't remember ever reading it. No, but I'll give it a try soon. No, I haven't finished it yet, but I'm trying. No, I'm too busy right now. Yes, I'm starting at the beginning again. Yes, I'm still reading it. Yes, I've read it finally. Yes, I'm a Muslim. (That last was in response to him jokingly asking me, “So, are you a Muslim yet?” But my answer was serious and when he realized it it made him cry.) It was almost that simple for me, that straightforward. I had became a Muslim as I read and listened to the meaning of the Qur'an and could not deny in my own mind and heart that this really was the revealed word of God—offering clear, direct, reasonable explanations and directions for life--what everyone thinks God, in theory, should have given to mankind but didn't. And yet here it was. Why didn't everyone know about it? Why didn't everyone want it? And now that I am a Muslim, I thought, what exactly does that mean for me? for my life? What do I do now? What Is A Muslim? A Muslim is one who submits to The One God, Allah in Arabic. It is anyone who has ever accepted the message sent from God to any race in any nation throughout all time by means of His various prophets, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them). Muslims honor all messengers and all messages sent from Allah, but also recognize that the former messages were eventually lost or distorted. The Qur'an being the final message, however, confirms the former messages and was promised to be protected. A Muslim of today submits to Allah by following the directions given through the Qur'an and following the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as contained in the Sunnah , testifying that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah (the Shahadah). A Muslim is directed to wash (Wudu or Ghusul) and to pray (Salat) 5 times per day, to give part of their earnings in charity (Zakah), to fast (Sawm) during the month of Ramadan, and to make the pilgrimage (Hajj) to the Ka'bah in Makkah at least once if he or she an afford to and is in good enough health. A Muslim is also directed to learn about and believe in Allah's Angels, His Books, His Messengers, Destiny, and Life After Death. After some initial resistance due to basic unfamiliarity and ignorance, I researched incessantly entered into the discipline of Islam with a similar enthusiasm and commitment with which one might enter into martial arts training, only more so (for me). When you accept training in a discipline, you don't generally pick and choose which directions you will follow or alter them to suit your own preferences. The few times I was able to attend Aikido class, I remember the class saying to the teacher, in Japanese, “Please give us your instruction,” and the sensei would respond, “Please receive my instruction.” And we did. We listened to what he said, watched his demonstrations, and then practiced what he instructed us to do in the way he showed us. There were rules of conduct and standards of dress. It was difficult, it was challenging, it was culturally and linguistically foreign to me, and it hurt, but I loved it. And I have found Islam to be far more challenging and beneficial and worthy of my commitment. I embrace it's instructions, it practices, its rules of conduct and its dress code, and I love it. It has given to me far more than I have sacrificed for it, and it is a lifelong commitment to learning, self-improvement, and helping others. But what then about the various sects of Islam? and the four juristic schools of Sunni Islam? What about all the conflicting sources of information, the debates, disagreements, disinformation and misinformation? What about all the problems in Muslim countries? What about terrorism? What about Sharia law and barbaric punishments? What about oppression of women? As I said, the first part of my conversion was clear and simple for me, the second part (which is on-going) somewhat more complicated. But my touchstone remains what I receive through reading the meaning of the Qur'an. I compare everything I read and see and hear with that, to help me sort things out. Knowing already that Christianity isn't necessarily as Christians do, it wasn't difficult for me to understand the same thing about Islam and Muslims. Whatever they may call themselves, some live in harmony with the core teachings of their faith and some do not. Some teachings are taken out of context and readily misunderstood, and that misunderstanding is often propagated by enemies of Islam. Also, Islam is monotheistic not monolithic. I have tried to address some of these questions and issues on this board as best I can for others just as I did and continue to do for myself. So here are some links I have found useful and some of you might find them interesting as well: ADULTERY APOSTASY CONVERSION BY THE SWORD CREATION FASCISM HIJAB ISLAM & DEMOCRACY and AGAIN MOON GOD SHARI'AH LAW TERRORISM WAR WOMEN'S RIGHTS I have skated only lightly across the surface of who I am and what it is for me to be a Muslim in this post. But my life is deeper, broader and richer because of Islam, and I feel that I can now participate more meaningfully in the world with a view to the world to come. I feel that I am a better mother, a better friend, a better citizen, more actively involved in charity and politics and education, and all praise and thanks is for Allah. I did not raise the issue of Islams and Muslims on this forum, nor did my new friend Hado, but as I found it falling under attack again and again I felt moved to address it from another, different perspective--mine. ~Merry
 
zeroday
zeroday 9 years ago

The belief in a God is the beginning of destruction. You have followed the path of God and destruction. Just look at the Muslim and Christian paths it is nothing but death. It will not end.....
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago



 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

All the power to you Merry! You seem like a sincere and a good person. I wish you well wherever your jouney leads you. Your bio is well written. You like to immerse yourslef in things deeply, to have the fullest expereince. I always left one foot out, just in case things get too strange or disoreinting. That happens sometimes when we experience a paradigm shift. It is good that you maintain and independant mind always.
 
unbeliever
unbeliever 9 years ago

Are you planning to raise your daughter to be a Muslim?
 
onacruse
onacruse 9 years ago

Merry, if I may ask a very personal question:
Were you the firstborn?
I have my own very specific reasons for asking this, and not to affront you.
Craig
 
Arthur
Arthur 9 years ago

Merry:
I am curious as to how you are treated in your community. I certainly can't think that there are many Muslims in the area of Idaho that you live. I have a couple of friends from Idaho and they tell me that it is a very conservative Christian part of the country. Does it ever feel like your are marginalized, or gawked at? Have any of your friends protested or any in your community given you a hard time?
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Thank you Tyrone
Yes, Unbeliever, I plan to teach my daughter my understanding of Islam (and everything else) but will leave the rest up to her. No compulsion.
~Merry
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

onacruse, I am my mother's only child and I was not raised with my half-brothers or step-siblings who are all older than me.
Arthur, I have been gawked at a few times in the small town where I live (pop.675), but most of the people here have treated me very nicely (to my surprise, I must confess). There are no other Muslims that I know of in the immediate area and the closest Masjid/Mosque/Islamic Center is 100 miles away in a college town. It is a pretty conservative very Christian area. I have heard that my closest friend here is worried about my conversion but is afraid to talk to me about it, afraid that I will try to convert her and then shun her if she refuses. That surprises me as we've known each other for years and have been there for each other no matter what, whatever our differences. So I hope we can talk soon and I can give her the reassurance she needs.
~Merry
 
onacruse
onacruse 9 years ago

Merry, thank you for your quick and open response!!!
If I may ask another personal question: Do you know why I asked my question?
 
lisavegas420
lisavegas420 9 years ago

Thank you for sharing your story Merry.
lisa
 
onlycurious
onlycurious 9 years ago

Merry,
You seem to have gone all over the board with practicing religions from all across the spectrum.
From the jw's to wicca, pagan stuff? Amazing.
Then on to worshipping with the more liberal sector of the Christian camp.
And now Islam. In some ways you've come full circle. Islam's view of women and the intense necessity to pray 5 times a day gives me the chills. You seemed to have stepped right back into a religion that doesn't allow you to breathe.
 
Mystla
Mystla 9 years ago

I find myself identifying with the child that you were. I was teased for my ability to sit and watch a spider for an hour. Or for playing with salamanders. Or for spending more time up trees than on on the ground. I was a "reader." I loved to read more than anything. I would read in the car, on the bus, walking to get the mail.. especially while up those trees that I loved to climb. I read the Narnia series so many times I considered the characters to be friends, when I didn't have any "real" ones.
I, too, lived in fear that someone would discover that I knew less. Less than what or whom, I don't know.. but less. I still, to this day, will pretend to knowledge I don't have, rather than admit ignorance.. silly, isn't it?
We may have taken very different spiritual paths, but I greatly admire your faith and your ability to stand up for what you believe in.

Misty
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

onacruse: If I may ask another personal question: Do you know why I asked my question?
no, I don't. Am I about to find out?
onlycurious: You seemed to have stepped right back into a religion that doesn't allow you to breathe.
I know you didn't mean it this way, but I had to laugh because I have had minor breathing problems all my life and it is only recently, during prayer, that I have found myself breathing fully and freely and easily. Why or how do you feel that Islam doesn't give me breathing room?
Misty:
I find myself identifying with the child that you were. I was teased for my ability to sit and watch a spider for an hour. Or for playing with salamanders. Or for spending more time up trees than on on the ground. I was a "reader." I loved to read more than anything. I would read in the car, on the bus, walking to get the mail.. especially while up those trees that I loved to climb. I read the Narnia series so many times I considered the characters to be friends, when I didn't have any "real" ones.
I, too, lived in fear that someone would discover that I knew less. Less than what or whom, I don't know.. but less. I still, to this day, will pretend to knowledge I don't have, rather than admit ignorance.. silly, isn't it?
I just want to hug you, kindred spirit! I resemble those remarks.
Thanks, Lisa, and thanks to all of you for reading what I wrote, I'm amazed you even tried and made it through.
~Merry
 
bernadette
bernadette 9 years ago

Thanks Merry for sharing your story.
Was just reading the rlink on women's rights in Islam.
Women Rights In Islam Regarding Education
The Qur'an and Hadiths of the Prophet both obligate Muslim men and women to acquire knowledge and education. It is a duty for every Muslim. For example, concerning knowledge and education the Qur'an Sura 35 Verse 28 states:
Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge.
Prophet's Hadiths repeatedly emphasizes the acquirement of education and knowledge for every Muslim male and female. For example, one Hadith states that, " Seeking knowledge is a duty of every Muslim, man or woman." (Ayisha Lemu 1978: 25). Another Hadith states, " Seek knowledge from the cradle to grave." (1978:25). Another Hadith states that, " The Father, if he educates his daughter well, will enter Paradise." (The World Bank Report July 9, 1993: 25). Yet another Hadith states that, " A mother is a school. If she is educated, then a whole people are educated" (1993: 25).
Can definitely vouch for that - at the scool that I attended, 98% were muslim (all girls), everyone was a dedicated student. The environment was amazing - equipped me with a love of learning for life.
Islam without the politics is very spiritual.
wish you you well on your journey.
bernadette
 
onacruse
onacruse 9 years ago

Merry, my dear lady! You are such a dear person, and I love you for being so willing to share with me (and yet further explain to me) the exploration of what I've come to understand as the oh-so-simple and yet-so-complex nature of families and relationships.
The firstborn child has a unique obligation in life: the leader, the inquisitor, the conquestor. I am myself a firstborn, and I've learned much about how I "played my role," even though I didn't know that I was playing a role...it was virtually scripted out for me from the day I was born: not by God, or Allah, but by nature.
Being raised a JW just accentuated that predisposition in me, and even more with me as a white, tall, blonde-haired male.
Do I see parallels between Christianity and Islam? Oh, you bet!!!! The sociological and anthropological comparisons just scream at me, as they have with other posters too numerous to mention.
Thus my suggestions about your own path in life: I can and do certainly respect it, as your adult choice, but it's the "why and wherefore" that got you to the point you're at right now that is most telling.
Does this make any sense?
 
Crumpet
Crumpet 9 years ago


I did not raise the issue of Islams and Muslims on this forum, nor did my new friend Hado, but as I found it falling under attack again and again I felt moved to address it from another, different perspective--mine. ~Merry
Hi there Merry - I am glad you chose to do this. I have avoided bringing it up though of course the headgear in your avatar and your myspace page made it abundantly clear where you were at right now. My reaction concerned me. I worried - does that mean I mean racist? Do I hate people who are muslim? I examined further and realised that actually its not Islam that I hate. Its religion of any kind. I despise myself for ever submitting to anything other than my own mind. And of course, and I mean no offense in this, I probably tend to look down on those who chose religion over what I see as logic and common sense as being weaker than myself. (LT and I regularly debate this, but we agree to disagree. I appreciate he finds it hard not to look in the mirror every morning and think he is heavenly - I have the same problem! LOL - just kidding) Its very hard to be this honest. No one likes to look close-minded - least of all me. We all have to get by one way or another whatever crutch we choose and call it. I haven't really found mine yet, but then I reject everything that I think I might be using as a crutch (not necessarily successfully I hasten to add before I get jumped on!). Religion is just at the top of that rejection list. I realise using the word crutch has scathing or disparaging connotations, but I couldn't think of one that worked better for me. There are quite a few feminists turning Islam over in the UK too. Personally I feel for some its like a new way of expressing feminism. Its reactionary for the most part. Rebelling against one authority (the Labour regime in Britain and the choices made regarding the Iraq war and social isolation of the growing Muslim population within the country), but turning to another. We don't need a god to tell us what to do. We dont need a book. We don't need a club. However I can understand that we may become better people doing things as a team as part of an organised network/religion - weight watchers works quite well for many for instance. We only need our hearts and an open mind though really. But by nature human is a sociable animal (well most people's!!!) All the answers as to what is appropriate behaviour were with us when we were born. I think inately we do know what is right and wrong. Sometimes perhaps we choose not to listen or read ourselves or true motives and allow them to be obscured by selfish desire. (I do that all the time and reap the consequences.) I think if this is what helps you survive and keeps you sweet and kind, after all you have been through dear Merry, then I wish you happiness and companionship in this life style choice. Never lose the ability to question with an open mind. We often surrendered this for the dubs. It would be an enormous mistake not to question objectively material that is presented with obvious bias. (PS I thought of you last week as in my local town centre there was a stall entitled what it means to be muslim. I thought about going up and asking them what it meant to them, but I was too shy!)
 
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience, Bernadette, I always find it interesting.
Whys and wherefores are always fascinating and complex, aren't they, onacruse? Definitely. No denial.
Crumpet, I'm so glad you shared your honest thoughts and feelings, and so nicely too. That isn't always wasy to do.
I appreciate all of you and I do like to at least try to look at things from as many different sides as possible, without leaving myself nowhere.
Thanks again! I've got to get to bed. Hope everyone has a good day.
~Merry
 
PaulJ
PaulJ 9 years ago

Wow. You dont get many threads like this come up!
Firstly Merry. thie important thing is you are happy. Simple as that really. Good on you!!!
Secondly, while I have absolutley no interest in organised religion now, it was quite refreshing to have someone explain where they are coming from without ramming it down your throat! And, while I'm not interested, you get a HUGE amount of respect from me for the way you delivered it.
So, sincerely, all the best Merry, I hope Islam continues to make you happy and give you what you need.
Paul x
 
Crumpet
Crumpet 9 years ago

I appreciate all of you and I do like to at least try to look at things from as many different sides as possible, without leaving myself nowhere.
I am so glad. I understand that last bit too - thats a lovely way of putting it "without leaving myself nowhere". I think I hinted at that: that in my rejection of everything and resistance to attachment to anything or anyone it does tend to leave me in a bit of a no (wo)man's land! LOL!
Thank you Merry for not taking offense. It is very very hard to be honest and not patronising and I thank you for the opportunity to do so. I'd also really be interested in reading ocassional day to day threads about what being a muslim means to you, how it affects your individual choices - just the mundane and ordinary stuff. It would be very enlightening to have a greater understanding of the appeal of Islam in simple terms especially from a westerner's perspective. So do feel free to return to the subject and whilst I will always debate and discuss with you remember I will be giving my own opinion and shall try not to be delineating your stance at any point because a) I am very fond of you and b) you have been utterly respectful and gentle in your representation of your beliefs. This more than anything gains my personal respect - I don't respond well to fanatic zealousy anymore!
Sleep well!
Nina x
 

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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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deeskis
deeskis 9 years ago

hey (((merry)))
So, sincerely, all the best Merry, I hope Islam continues to make you happy and give you what you need.
ditto.............
I also wondered about something you mentioned in myspace, but didn't continue.......
it was about your ?christian experience, and the intense relationship you felt with Jesus...........how does that fit in with your new beliefs?
Thanks for sharing, you have a great writing style and always get me thinking!
D
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Merry:
It sounds like your Turkish friend was as persistent as a JW
A Muslim is one who submits to The One God, Allah in Arabic. It is anyone who has ever accepted the message sent from God to any race in any nation throughout all time by means of His various prophets, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them).
So you're simply an excessively romantic theist with a penchant for mysticism, as supplied through a foreign language (Arabic), then?
Muslims honor all messengers and all messages sent from Allah, but also recognize that the former messages were eventually lost or distorted. The Qur'an being the final message, however, confirms the former messages and was promised to be protected.
...and with a substitute set of Middle Eastern religious baggage and ancient texts?


 
zagor
zagor 9 years ago

Marry, I'm glad you found a peace in this new direction in your life. I hope it works out well for you. I would just like to ask you a couple of questions if you don't mind that popped on my mind as I was reading this thread and subsequent comments.
How long did you investigate this new religion? and what method of investigation did you use? (meaning did you read only pro-Islam literature or did you try looking it from other angles) You don't have to answer if you feel that goes too far but I would appreciate very much so if you took time to answer. Another subquestion would be, would you change your path if you found something even more revealing in another religion or philosophy? Ok that's three questions :smile:
Have a good rest.
John
 
glitter
glitter 9 years ago

You said: It was after I saw a documentary entitled Suffer the Little Children exposing the problem of child molestation coverups in the Society that I went online to see if there was a follow-up on those who had shared their stories. That led me to Silent Lambs, Free Minds, and the Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum.What about Aisha?
 
BlackSwan of Memphis
BlackSwan of Memphis 9 years ago

Hey merry, I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on your page in the past and think it is awesome that you have told people.
I was at my local metaphysics shop a couple of weeks ago and they had a well worn Quaran for sale, and thinking of you I picked it up.
I think that your conversion is honest and heartfelt and I hope that you will find happiness wherever you go.
 
Pahpa
Pahpa 9 years ago

Merry
Thanks for sharing your experience. But I've always been puzzled by the attraction of blacks to the Muslim movement. All down through history, it was the Muslims who enslaved the blacks even well before it was done by white Europeans and continued well after the "slave trade" to the West was discontinued. They were involved in the trafficking of slaves during the entire time. If blacks reject Christianity on the bases of these past abuses, wouldn't it also apply to the Mulims who were in the business long before and long afterwards?
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 9 years ago

Hello, Merry.
I've spoken to you a few brief times, both here and on myspace (I'm Lisaisheretoday over there)...I always enjoyed your myspace, the music, the pictures, so I check it from time to time to see what you have done with the place...
I was sure surprised a little while back when I checked it and it was all muslimed out! Thanks for posting your story. It was very interesting.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 9 years ago

But I've always been puzzled by the attraction of blacks to the Muslim movement. All down through history, it was the Muslims who enslaved the blacks even well before it was done by white Europeans and continued well after the "slave trade" to the West was discontinued. They were involved in the trafficking of slaves during the entire time. If blacks reject Christianity on the bases of these past abuses, wouldn't it also apply to the Mulims who were in the business long before and long afterwards?
Don't confuse Islam (the large, broad ancient religion) with The Nation of Islam, a small American Islamic cult type group.
( The Nation of Islam is to Islam what JWs are to Christianity.)
 
anewme
anewme 9 years ago

Somehow I have the feeling this will be but a stepping stone in your religious journey Merry.
But your path is unique and would make a good read!

Thankyou for sharing!




 
Pahpa
Pahpa 9 years ago

lisa
I'm aware of the distinction you mention. But many blacks who joined the Black Muslim movement did so because of the past abuses of the white "Christian" involvment in the slave trade. They equated Christianity with slavery. So, by rejecting Christianity they were divorcing themselves from this terrible history. Black Muslims claim to be part of Islamic world. But the abuses of slavery were a part of the Islamic history long before and long after the participation of Europeans. Why would blacks reject one system of belief for another if the histories of both were involved in this tragic and terrible practice? Is it a case of not knowing the historical background?
 
Quandry
Quandry 9 years ago

To each his own. Thank you for your explanation.
After the Witnesses, I researched many religions and asked questions.
I rented a video put out by a middle eastern Muslim group attempting to bring the plight of Muslim women to light. It seems that in some areas, women are little more than sex objects. In the video, the women were to, of course, be totally covered, and not even feet could show. The movie centered around a woman whose husband had died. She lived with her mother and daughter, about twelve years old. She was actually a doctor, but due to poor economic conditions was not being paid. Every time the religious authorities came to the hospital, she had to completely cover herself. She had no money and no recourse,and since she was a woman working was discouraged, so she cut her daughter's hair, disguised her as a boy and sent her to a man who knew her husband, so that she could work and try to make some money for the family. The religious leaders came through the village, taking all the young boys, and she was taken also. They were to be indoctrinated in the manly ways of Islam.
It was found out that the "boy" was really a girl, and she was taken to prison. There, an old man, a religious leader, decided that instead of being put to death as many other women were being (stoned, after being thrown into a hole, for any minor infraction-totally covered of course) she would go with him to his home and be another of his women. She was locked into a ratty looking compound with many young women and small children who were telling her (through sub-titles) that they hated the man, wished they'd never been born because they were women, and that she would shortly feel the same way.
Perhaps they are not all this way. Perhaps they do not all hate "infidels" and feel that they must be killed. Just like with the witnesses, not all want to cover over child abuse, etc.
I just don't see it.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 9 years ago

Hi Merry, thanks for sharing. Around here it is a cosmopolitan area and in the city it is not uncommon to see women wearing the headgear and dress (forgive my calling it that but I do not know the correct names) I think you are brave and committed to do so in a small American town.
My superficial reading of Islam has shown me that it is a world away from many peoples perception of it . Moderate Islam is surely a force for good in people's lives.
If you are happy with it, I am sure that God is happy with you too.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

What an interesting array of replies to wake up to!
I must read them all again and ponder them...
~Merry
 
lonelysheep
lonelysheep 9 years ago

Wow. You dont get many threads like this come up!
Ya sure don't! I'm a little surprised Merry, but your avatar kind of hinted at that a while ago.
I have been gawked at a few times in the small town where I live (pop.675), but most of the people here have treated me very nicely (to my surprise, I must confess). There are no other Muslims that I know of in the immediate area and the closest Masjid/Mosque/Islamic Center is 100 miles away in a college town. It is a pretty conservative very Christian area.
Do you think your treatment would be different if your skin color was? I've never been to Idaho, and in this part of NJ, it's no big deal.
LS<------wonders how many readers are disgusted and wide eyed
 also wonders how many readers are on their way down the same path
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Deeskis:
I also wondered about something you mentioned in myspace, but didn't continue.......
it was about your ?christian experience, and the intense relationship you felt with Jesus...........how does that fit in with your new beliefs?
I was reading something in the early stages of my conversion process that was like a splash of cold water in my face, waking me up to something I was very attached to, a way of understanding and experiencing the world that I was quite fond of until I realized it might actually have been damaging to me all those years--my romanticism:

To understand how romanticism is confused with religion, it is necessary to fully understand the idea of "sincerity." Sincerity is doing something in order to gain the approval of God only. If the act is truly done with sincerity, it is counted as worship in the sight of God. For example, praying, fasting, giving alms, working in the cause of God, and all other acts of service, are to be regarded as acts of worship, only if they are undertaken to gain the approval of God. Worship performed without the intention of gaining God's approval is invalid according to God's command in the Qu'ran: "So woe to those who pray, and are forgetful of their prayer, those who show off" (Qur'an, 107, 4-6) This is also clear in the words of the Prophet Mohammed, who said, "God accepts those deeds which were performed purely for His sake and which were meant to seek His pleasure."12

It is in this manner that romanticism distorts religion. It directs religion towards a purpose other than gaining the approval of God; it represents religion as an emotional experience, in which people may satisfy their emotional needs, not to be practised for the pleasure of God.

By obfuscating this subtle but very important distinction, romanticism leads people to a completely false understanding of religion, the end-result being mysticism. When people cease to understand religion as submission to God, and begin to regard it as a means for "psychological exhilaration," then a number of mystical practices are sought, submerging them even deeper in this false approach.
I realized that this was what I had always done, as a Pagan and as a Christian, and it was kind of like a drug. It then occurred to me that the things I had experienced while "under the influence" of my romanticism were not reliable experiences. It was very very hard for me to let go of them, they were treasured parts of my life and romanticism was deeply ingrained in my psyche, but I felt that I must try.
I now respect Jesus as having been a special prophet with a mission and a message I wish had not been distorted. I would like to know more about it as it was and was meant to be. It is surely one of the trials of this life that humans, whatever their religious orientation (yes Muslims too) are always messing things up and making life more difficult for each other. But we must still do our best.
And thanks for your compliment, Dee. I also appreciate it when people make me think more and consider things differently, and you have done that for me as well.
~Merry
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 9 years ago

What an awesome story Merry.
I see a lot of loose parallels between the path I have chosen and the path you have chosen...
◦its a challenge to get people to look past their own ignorance and accept your decision
◦weird / concerned looks in public (I'm making an assumption on your behalf)
◦family and friends and who aren't involved in it with you think you're crazy / loosing it
Let me know if I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I can empathize with you.
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 9 years ago

double post.

DEMONS!!!
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

LittleToe: It sounds like your Turkish friend was as persistent as a JW There are similarities and there are differences. I'm happy with both. This thought also has the makings of a good knock-knock joke.
So you're simply an excessively romantic theist with a penchant for mysticism, as supplied through a foreign language (Arabic), then? I'm in rehab. See above post to Deeskis.
...and with a substitute set of Middle Eastern religious baggage and ancient texts? I don't suppose you'd like to be a gentleman and carry my bags for me, would you?
~Merry
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Zagor/John: How long did you investigate this new religion? I'm still investigating, since last year. I investigated a little before I read the meaning of the Qur'an through the first time (3 translations), and a lot during and after. and what method of investigation did you use? (meaning did you read only pro-Islam literature or did you try looking it from other angles) I used both pro-Islamic and anti-Islamic sources as well as more neutral ones (if there is such a thing). It was important to me to research my questions from as many angles as possible. And being a JWD addict, I had to search out Islamic apostate sites as well, don'tcha know?! You don't have to answer if you feel that goes too far but I would appreciate very much so if you took time to answer. Another subquestion would be, would you change your path if you found something even more revealing in another religion or philosophy? Ok that's three questions :smile: In order for that to happen, I would have to believe that I had been entirely mistaken about this one, and at this point it would be hard for me to imagine that happening. Not that I doubt I can be mistaken, I have been many times about many things, just that this all fits together and makes sense to me like nothing else has.
~Merry
 
unbeliever
unbeliever 9 years ago

Merry,
When I first read you had converted I felt you traded in one high control cult for another high control cult. I read your journal entries on myspace. Very informative reading from your prospective. I am friends with a couple of ex muslims and they don't have very many positive things to say about the religion. I don't believe that women have as much freedom of choice as you have been led to believe. I just hope for you and your daughters sake that your experience with Islam stays a positive one.
 

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Topic Summary
who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene  147 Replies latest    jw experiences
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Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene

Glitter: You said: It was after I saw a documentary entitled Suffer the Little Children exposing the problem of child molestation coverups in the Society that I went online to see if there was a follow-up on those who had shared their stories. That led me to Silent Lambs, Free Minds, and the Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum. What about Aisha?
What a great question! I'm amazed I didn't make that connection myself as I was writing as I am usually able to anticipate questions and issues from other points of view that may arise. This is an issue that I have found troubling as well and am still researching and pondering. Rather than share where I am with it now, may I get back to you?
~Merry
Thanks for your comments, Black Swan. Best wishes always
Papha:
Thanks for sharing your experience. But I've always been puzzled by the attraction of blacks to the Muslim movement. All down through history, it was the Muslims who enslaved the blacks even well before it was done by white Europeans and continued well after the "slave trade" to the West was discontinued. They were involved in the trafficking of slaves during the entire time. If blacks reject Christianity on the bases of these past abuses, wouldn't it also apply to the Mulims who were in the business long before and long afterwards?
This is something with which I am not familiar and must read more about. All I am aware of so far is that the Qur'an allows slavery but strongly encourages setting slaves free, and "The first call to prayer at the Quba mosque built by Prophet Muhammad was given in 622 by Bilal -- a black slave freed by the Prophet." Racism, or the supposed superiority of one race over another, is not condoned in the Qur'an. I am beginning by reading herebut will read elsewhere as well.
Lisa: all muslimed out!
LOL!
anewme: Somehow I have the feeling this will be but a stepping stone in your religious journey Merry.
You and LittleToe both! Thanks for reading.
Quandry:
Perhaps they are not all this way. Perhaps they do not all hate "infidels" and feel that they must be killed. Just like with the witnesses, not all want to cover over child abuse, etc.
I just don't see it.
So many tragedies in this world! Some areas are so bad. I can understand your feelings, so I hope you will keep looking and discerning that what is wrong in some Muslim societies is contrary to what is taught in the Qur'an. And there are also Muslims pushing for change, for education, for relief and for peace, just as there are many Americans who do not condone the American killing of innocent women, children and elderly in Middle Eastern countries. I can imagine it would be hard in those conditions for people there to see anything good in us, but some still manage to.
~Merry
back in a bit!
 
jeanniebeanz
jeanniebeanz

Merry,
I didn't respond to this one for a while, didn't know what to say really. Personally, I like you, but I am all religioned out and think it is all a method to control and/or divide people. But, if it works for you...
J
 
Crumpet
Crumpet

◦
◾its a challenge to get people to look past their own ignorance and accept your decision
◾weird / concerned looks in public (I'm making an assumption on your behalf)
◾family and friends and who aren't involved in it with you think you're crazy / loosing it
Quality post Richie!
 
Euphemism
Euphemism

First off, kudos for converting to Islam in a tiny town in Northern Idaho. You obviously aren't too concerned with what people think of you. Or maybe you enjoy being different.
Question, though... how can you really say that this is not driven by emotion, unlike your previous religious experiences? I have no doubt that you have found something positive and fulfilling within the Islamic tradition, and part of that seems to be the explicit disavowal of personal fulfillment. (Narkissos has written some great stuff in the past about the appeal of self-renunciation; mostly in a Christian/JW context, but it sounds similar to what you are doing now as well.)
OTOH, can you fully say that you accept Islam as an intellectual proposition? If you've read through the Quran several times, you realize that it contains not only the many positive quotes from the site that you linked to, but also many quotes that I suspect you disagree with (e.g. the infamous 'fight and slay the pagans wherever you may find them' (9:5); fornicators or adulterers should be flogged with a hundred stripes (24:2); condemnation of homosexuality; etc). The scholars of Sharia and Wahabbism can support their position from the Quran just as eloquently as the more liberal Muslims can.
Even slavery--you say that the Quran discouraged slavery, but still allowed it. That is understandable given its historical context. But if the book is so dependent on historical context, how can you say that it is "what everyone thinks God, in theory, should have given to mankind but didn't"? Shouldn't the book that God gives, if there is such a thing, be good for all times and places?
Anyway, I don't mean to be argumentative, but since you posted this thread, I assume you expected some discussion to ensue.  I apprecate reading your experiences, and respectfully look forward to hearing your thoughts in reply.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene


BluesBrother: Hi Merry, thanks for sharing. Around here it is a cosmopolitan area and in the city it is not uncommon to see women wearing the headgear and dress (forgive my calling it that but I do not know the correct names) I think you are brave and committed to do so in a small American town. Thanks for that. I wish I could get out and travel a bit. I've always wanted to do. My personal experience in this regard is very limited adn I have yet to meet another Mualim in person. I do have an online friend, an American convert to Islam, who is hoping we can make arrangements to get me to Jordan one of these days for a visit. She has a home there as well as in the US.
My superficial reading of Islam has shown me that it is a world away from many peoples perception of it . Moderate Islam is surely a force for good in people's lives. That was my take on it as well.
If you are happy with it, I am sure that God is happy with you too.
.
lonelysheep: Do you think your treatment would be different if your skin color was? I've never been to Idaho, and in this part of NJ, it's no big deal.
I don't know. Growing up, the only racial diversity I saw was cowboys (loggers, etc.) and Indians. There was a lot of prejudice against the Indians here (on and near the Niimiipoo rez) and I heard some very strange ideas about "black people" from older folks when I was a teenager. I think there are one or two black families in the immediate area now, a few Mexican families, and maybe a couple of Chinese families. I do wonder what their experience has been here. I have also heard that a Middle Eastern family (from where I do not know) bought or are running a gas station in the next town over and locals were referring to them as terrorists and Muslims.
RichieRich:
What an awesome story Merry. Thanks Rich! That means a lot to me.
I see a lot of loose parallels between the path I have chosen and the path you have chosen...
◦its a challenge to get people to look past their own ignorance and accept your decision
◦weird / concerned looks in public (I'm making an assumption on your behalf)
◦family and friends and who aren't involved in it with you think you're crazy / loosing it
Let me know if I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I can empathize with you. I read your Interesting Occurence! I have to say, worlds apart and yet we understand each other (at least to some agree). This world needs more empathy!


unbeliever: When I first read you had converted I felt you traded in one high control cult for another high control cult. Understandable. I think it is a misunderstanding but an understandable one. I read your journal entries on myspace. Very informative reading from your prospective. I am friends with a couple of ex muslims and they don't have very many positive things to say about the religion. I would be interested in knowing their experiences. I don't believe that women have as much freedom of choice as you have been led to believe. I just hope for you and your daughters sake that your experience with Islam stays a positive one. I hope so too, but, whatever happens, I intend to learn from the good as well as the bad. Rest assured that I am a fiercely protective and loving mother. My experiences with men and family and religion outside of Islam have been a mixed bag, and I am guarded against repeating past mistakes, so I appreciate your good wishes.
jeanniebeanz: I didn't respond to this one for a while, didn't know what to say really. Personally, I like you, but I am all religioned out and think it is all a method to control and/or divide people. But, if it works for you...{{{jeannie}}} I like you too. Personally, I don't think religion itself is a method to control and/or divide people in a negative sense but can certainly be used that way by unscrupulous people. I think both individuals and societies need certain controls and divisions for their well-being.
~Merry

Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene


Euphamism: First off, kudos for converting to Islam in a tiny town in Northern Idaho. You obviously aren't too concerned with what people think of you. Or maybe you enjoy being different. I am generally of the opinion that I don't do things just for the sake of being different, I need a better motivation than that, yet I do kind of like being different. I've have also always been concerned with what people think of me; I crave understanding and acceptance, and there is a part of me that wishes I could please everyone all the time. But I try not to allow that to control my decisions, to run my life or even to interfere too much. Seeking to please God above all else has been a good antidote, I think.
Question, though... how can you really say that this is not driven by emotion, unlike your previous religious experiences? I have no doubt that you have found something positive and fulfilling within the Islamic tradition, and part of that seems to be the explicit disavowal of personal fulfillment. (Narkissos has written some great stuff in the past about the appeal of self-renunciation; mostly in a Christian/JW context, but it sounds similar to what you are doing now as well.) I maintain that my present experience and conversion was not driven by emotion although it does contain an emotional component. I don't think I disavow personal fulfillment, Islam is not about asceticism, but I do not make it my main focus and the criteria by which I guide my actions. That is the difference.
OTOH, can you fully say that you accept Islam as an intellectual proposition? If you've read through the Quran several times, you realize that it contains not only the many positive quotes from the site that you linked to, but also many quotes that I suspect you disagree with (e.g. the infamous 'fight and slay the pagans wherever you may find them' (9:5); fornicators or adulterers should be flogged with a hundred stripes (24:2); condemnation of homosexuality; etc). The scholars of Sharia and Wahabbism can support their position from the Quran just as eloquently as the more liberal Muslims can. I am still studying and researching what you mention here, but I can tell you that balance and context is essential for understanding and acceptance and translation of these matters into daily modern life and law.
Even slavery--you say that the Quran discouraged slavery, but still allowed it. That is understandable given its historical context. But if the book is so dependent on historical context, how can you say that it is "what everyone thinks God, in theory, should have given to mankind but didn't"? Shouldn't the book that God gives, if there is such a thing, be good for all times and places? I do believe it is good for all times and places, and soon I hope to do an in depth investigation into this subject, as well as a couple others. I believe the instructions as they were given would naturally lead to a phasing out of the slavery that then existed, at least for those who understood and implemented the guidance therein.
Thanks for all the comments and questions. As I hope you can tell, I don't have all the answers, but I am not afraid of questions, my own or anyone elses, and I am pleased to be able to hold a reasonable discussion about it. I am not offended by your feelings, thoughts and perspectives, and I do not feel under attack. There is a difference between attacking someone and challenging them, and I love to be challenged. The other I don't like so much.
~Merry

LittleToe
LittleToe


anewme: Somehow I have the feeling this will be but a stepping stone in your religious journey Merry.
You and LittleToe both! Thanks for reading.
LOL - yes, I think this was also part of our conversation about six months ago, wasn't it? Well, credit to you in that you've survived over six months. I hope you're not just trying to go the distance because of my comments
Hehe, I know you're not, and I'm glad that you are enjoying your studies and finding fulfillment. But I stand by my "stepping stone" comment of yesteryear. Your soul is too celtic to remain confined for long...
... I hear call of the sea, in the whispering song of the breeze, the roar of the fire, and the heartbeat of the soil beneath...
Slainte Bha.

What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence

any form of religion limits you to a set of beliefs. why do you limit yourself again?

LittleToe
LittleToe

WAC:
You have a set of beliefs, yourself, even if you don't call them "religion". Why do you choose to limit yourself?

Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene

Ahhh, that was beautiful, LT.
And I'm glad you're back, WAC, cos I didn't know how to respond to ""
LT: WAC:
You have a set of beliefs, yourself, even if you don't call them "religion". Why do you choose to limit yourself?
That's kinda what I was going to say, but then again isn't "limited" a lot like "confined?"
LT: Your soul is too celtic to remain confined for long...
Or am I missing an important distinction?
~Merry

kerj2leev
kerj2leev

WAC:
You have a set of beliefs, yourself, even if you don't call them "religion". Why do you choose to limit yourself?
Who says WAC has limited himself, like Merry?
Once you choose a belief system in which one states they have answers from God then you limit yourself to adaptation and change! My belief system is more about ideas which are much easier to change then a belief!

Narkissos
Narkissos

... I hear call of the sea, in the whispering song of the breeze, the roar of the fire, and the heartbeat of the soil beneath...
Yes that was beautiful Ross.
Merry, I enjoyed reading more of your story, and I won't add much to the comments I have already made on the other threads...
I suppose what I most like in Islam is a certain sense of fate that our Western culture has lost with its exhausting ideal of free choice (what the Greeks called heresy); which I feel would be a bit at odds with the idea of choosing Islam as a religion. From this perspective your description of conversion as realising you were a muslim had a very genuine ring. Whether you can be a muslim as defined by what you are presently studying is another matter -- it's a question of being true to whatever God (metaphorically speaking, or not) made you. I personally feel that my only way to be a muslim, in the etymological sense, is accepting who I am and the path I am treading, no matter how strange and self-contradictory it may get.
Edit: here's an aspect of Islam you might be interested in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hallaj

zeroday
zeroday

any form of religion limits you to a set of beliefs. why do you limit yourself again?
She actually has no choice... Her theist demands limits... And she will follow... Believe Christ or DIE, fly a plane into a building or DIE. There is no option... Is there...

hillary_step
hillary_step

Merry,
It takes a lot of courage to expose your inner self to an international discussion Board filled with such a variety of people from the cynic to the lunatic and back again, and I admire that at least.
Then, when our daughter was about 4 years old, I had what I believed was a mystical experience with Christ and became a nondenominational unorthodox Christian.
Can I ask, what do you put this experience down to, now that you are a Muslim?
HS

zeroday
zeroday


Can I ask, what do you put this experience down to, now that you are a Muslim?
The same as anyone else. She had an "EXPERIENCE' any other explanation requried. I don't think so....Allah spoke, Jesus spoke. God spoke.. What more do you need...

glitter
glitter

Merry That's OK, I hope you *are* thinking about it. The paedophile scandal is the reason I left the JWs, I would be a hypocrite if I then joined a faith that revered a paedophile as God's last prophet. I might as well have stayed a JW (or gone back!) and defended their policy.

hillary_step
hillary_step

Zeroday,
The same as anyone else. She had an "EXPERIENCE' any other explanation requried. I don't think so....Allah spoke, Jesus spoke. God spoke.. What more do you need...
Your post makes little sense, but I am presuming it has a sarcastic element attached?
I would be interested to know what differentiates a Christian 'experience' from a Muslim 'experience' or for that matter any other religious 'experience', and whether in fact such 'experiences' are viscerally unique. If they are, as I believe, merely chemically induced by the mind, body or a mixture of both, then it seems to me that no person could ever rely on a religious 'experience' to prove anything but that they are surceptible to being dicated too by their heightened visceral inclinations. In this at least, Christians and Muslims speak as one.
I am far more interested in hearing from Merry, to whom I originally posed the question, than anybody else, as it is she who lived through this experience.
HS

Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene

I apologize, Zeroday, for not responding directly to your comments as they are not entirely clear to me. I think I get the general idea, but not enough to frame a reply.

Hillary Step: Can I ask, what do you put this experience down to, now that you are a Muslim?
Sure, no problem. I have to say that this was a hard one for me to be honest with myself about as I was very attached to my mystical 'experiences' both as a Pagan and a Christian. Now I would agree with you that they can't be relied on to prove anything. It seems to me that they can lock you into a sort of closed cycle of an (oft times hidden) belief or desire creating an experience, with the experience in turn being used to further create and support the initial belief and/or desire. I don't know about the chemical aspect of it, though.
I did not have a similar 'experience' in becoming a Muslim, although I have had some 'incidents' since then. I remain more detached from them now. I don't take them and run with them, so to speak. I wish I could speak more clearly on this. It's a little difficult to find the words. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I find that if I keep these things to myself or limit conversation to those who feel the same way I do, it becomes easier to lapse into laziness and even dishonesty with myself. Although I guess that can also be a danger when feeling constantly on the defense. I feel like this thread is striking a nice balance and I appreciate that.
~Merry

unbeliever
unbeliever



unbeliever: When I first read you had converted I felt you traded in one high control cult for another high control cult. Understandable. I think it is a misunderstanding but an understandable one. I read your journal entries on myspace. Very informative reading from your prospective. I am friends with a couple of ex muslims and they don't have very many positive things to say about the religion. I would be interested in knowing their experiences.
There is not a lot to tell. They are friends I met in college. One was a guy and he said that his father was very abusive toward his mother and sisters. When he married a Jew they disowned him. He told me a couple of times the muslim religion teaches hate. He says his father is the type of person that would carry out an "honor killing" w/o thinking twice about it. He says he is happy his family disowned him and he would not have it any other way. He left the muslim religion when he moved here to the states.
My other friend hardly talks about what happened to her but I am going to assume it was tramautic because she always starts crying when anybody gets her to try and open up. All I know is her family tried to force her into an arranged marriage and she ran away. She is worried sick that her sister will be forced into an arranged marriage. After she ran away her family packed up and moved back to the middle east (Jordan I think) and she has had very little contact since. She is a Christian now and attends a Baptist church.


LittleToe
LittleToe

Merry:
That's kinda what I was going to say, but then again isn't "limited" a lot like "confined?"
Yup. I guess I struggle with the concept of attempting to stay still in the "flow" of development for anything more than a breather. When you're ready come back in, the water's lovely
Kerj:
Who says WAC has limited himself, like Merry?
I do. He's limited himself by his own set of beliefs which currently won't let him explore Islam or Christianity from the inside. A limit is a limit, whichever side of the fence you place yourself...
Didier:
Yes that was beautiful Ross.
I was feeling poetic
I suppose what I most like in Islam is a certain sense of fate that our Western culture has lost with its exhausting ideal of free choice (what the Greeks called heresy);
That could be why I have a penchant for Scottish Calvinism, with its predestination and generaly Stoicism in the face of providence.
I personally feel that my only way to be a muslim, in the etymological sense, is accepting who I am and the path I am treading, no matter how strange and self-contradictory it may get.
Nicely put
Does that make you a "revert" to Islam?
zeroday:I agree with your comments, but find your tone a little aggressive. It might just be me, or your terseness (which I'm usually guilty of, too), or a lack of emoticons, or something else. Can't quite put my finger on it.
Hillary:
...such a variety of people from the cynic to the lunatic and back again...
Mea culpa

Anyhow back to Merry - this is a good thread..


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Topic Summary
who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

While I remember, pertaining to Aisha, it isn't really that long that we've been so discriminate in Britain about the age of consent. At the start of the Victorian era it was still 10, as maintained in the 1861 Act. The earliest age for marriage was 12, as it had been since the "First Statue of Westminster" in 1285 and continually reaffirmed up to and including in1576, however this later date accepted age 10 as discretionary for carnal knowledge and distinct from rape.
From a modern-day perspective its sick, but those were different times and people certainly didn't live so long, so as a proportion of their life it was comparable. No less inappropriate, though.
How does that compare to laws in the Puritanical USA?
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

'Morning, LT~
That is interesting and not something of which I was aware. I did a quick search and found this
http://www.towardsislam.com/dan_1988/2006/02/why-did-prophet-muhammed-marry-aisha.html
which happens to mention
The Campaign To Raise The Age Of Consent, 1885-1994 ( http://womhist.binghamton.edu/teacher/aoc.htm)
 [note the education domain] states: "American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven ."
and also addresses the issue of paedophilia.
~Merry
 
glitter
glitter 9 years ago

And we used to put kids down mines and up chimneys in the olden days too. It would be ridiculous in the 21st Century to follow a religion made up by a violent Victorian child-labour-using mine owner wouldn't it.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

And this is also interesting to me:

As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.
Determination of the true age of Aisha
It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage. This he did in, at least, the following writings: his English booklet Prophet of Islam, his larger English book Muhammad, the Prophet, and in the footnotes in his voluminous Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, these three writings being published in the 1920s and 1930s. In the booklet Prophet of Islam, which was later incorporated in 1948 as the first chapter of his book Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, he writes in a lengthy footnote as follows:
.... http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm (read the rest for more details)
There does not appear to be absolute certainty how old Aisha was at the time of consummation, but it is generally agreed that she was old enough in terms of the time and place in which she lived, and that marriage at the onset of puberty has not been an uncommon practice in a broad span of cultures and times.
Paedophilia and child abuse is not something I can support or defend, especially not in the name of God, so it was important to me to discover the truth of the matter. I have been praying about it, expressing my desire for the truth (whatever it might be and wherever it might lead). Someone had tried to explain it to me before, but it was not enough for me, and I had done searches before but they did not turn up this amount and type of information. Typing in the phrase 'age of consent' along with aisha helped. It is food for thought.
~Merry
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 9 years ago

Hi Merry,
I have wondered, seeing your avatar, if you had become a Muslim for a while. The city I live in has quite a large Muslim population, so I'm fairly used to seeing the headwear on many of my fellow citizens.
Although I haven't personally felt either the desire or the need to examine other religious beliefs since leaving the watchtower, I respect anyone who does, and I sincerely hope that what you have found in Islam gives you the peace and joy that you deserve.
love
Linda
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Glitter: And we used to put kids down mines and up chimneys in the olden days too. It would be ridiculous in the 21st Century to follow a religion made up by a violent Victorian child-labour-using mine owner wouldn't it.
I can well understand your passion for the protection and well-being of children and I applaud it.
Please also consider how Aisha was treated and regarded:
it is of the greatest relevance to note the pivotal role she played as a teacher, exponent and interpreter of the religion of Islam. Aisha was an exceptionally intelligent and astute woman, a young prodigy, and this was the main reason why she was got married to the Holy Prophet, as is clearly proved by events after the Holy Prophet’s life. She entered his household, shortly after his emigration to Madina, just at the time when the teachings of Islam in all fields of life for the Muslim community were starting to be revealed to the Holy Prophet and demonstrated by him by his example and practice. An intellectually gifted person was required who would have daily contact with the Holy Prophet at the closest and most personal level, so as to absorb the teachings that he was giving on all aspects of life by his words and actions. Such a person would need to possess the following qualities:
◦an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately,
◦the understanding to grasp the significance and the principles of the teachings,
◦powers of reasoning, criticism and deduction to resolve problems on the basis of those teachings,
◦the skills to convey knowledge to a wide range of audience,
◦and, finally, have the prospect of living for a considerable period of time after the death of the Holy Prophet in order to spread his message to distant generations.

That Aisha possessed all these qualities and carried out this mission is an absolutely positive and undeniable, historical fact. After the Holy Prophet’s death, she acted as a teacher and interpreter of Islam, providing guidance to even the greatest of the male Companions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. They made a special point of going to her to gain knowledge and seek her opinion. A vast number of sayings and actions of the Holy Prophet are reported from her in books of Hadith. She not only quoted his sayings and reported her observations of events, but interpreted them to provide solutions to questions. Whenever necessary, she corrected the views of the greatest of the Companions of the Holy Prophet. She made rulings and judgments on which Islamic law is based.
The following are two examples of what the Holy Prophet’s male Companions said about her:

“Abu Musa said: Whenever there was any hadith that was difficult [to understand] for us, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, and we asked Aisha we always found that she had knowledge about that hadith.”
“Musa ibn Talha said: I never saw anyone more eloquent than Aisha.” [1]http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
~Merry
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Thank you, Linda. And it is good to hear from you. I am wishing you all the best with your healing process--much strength and peace, healing tears and moments of profound joy as needed, and all the support and love you could ever want. And the same for Trev. I think you are both very special.
~Merry
 
glitter
glitter 9 years ago

The paedophile scandal was the *only* cause of me leaving the JWs, so it stuck out for me in your post. It's not the only thing that offends me about the JWs at all, but I'd *never* have found out about the other stuff if I hadn't found out about the paedophile scandal, as I always sort of assumed there'd be no *true* anti-JW info online (!) so never even looked! So since you left because of this too, I'm putting myself in your shoes.
 It doesn't matter to me how smart she was or how she was treated. The paedophile scandal makes the JWs an unacceptable and immoral leadership (IMO), but the Holy Prophet (says him) is worthy of following despite it?
 Also you said you looked at apostate Muslim sites - how come you didn't believe them?
 My mum's closest friend is a Muslim (born and raised) and we looked into Islam a lot more when she moved in and we met her. I went to a school that was 60% Muslim (was great not to be the only kid not celebrating Christmas!), my friend's dad converted (now a spiritualist though)... so I'm *not* an "OMFG Muslims! Aaarrgh run away!" person at *all*. :grinning: I just think it's BS the same way I think the Witnesses were BS. :grinning: Edit: got no idea why it's not keeping my paragraphs, Automatic Cr/Lf used to do it but it's not been working... :frowning:
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

And not to be overlooked-- thanks to Narkissos for his always interesting comments and the link as well!
And thanks to unbeliever for telling us her friends' stories. I am glad they are in a safer, better place for them now, and I sincerely hope that more and more people will become aware that what was done to them and others like them in the name of Islam is not supported by the Qur'an and very much needs to be changed, not perpetuated.
Hello again, Glitter! Did you read through the links I provided? They discuss this issue in more detail than I could reasonably quote here.
What I read at the Muslim apostate sites was a mixed bag and I had to do a lot of sorting. Some of them were people with bad experiences like unbeliever's friends, some made interesting points which triggered new questions and caused me to do further research, all of which were either satisfactorily answered pro-Islamically for me or are still in process (being contemplated and further researched). I did not know that much about Muslims at present or throughout history when I became a Muslim myself, and my decision (or awakening awareness) was not based on what others believe or do but on my own reading of the meaning of the Qur'an. It certainly has been an amazing learning experience on both fronts.
~Merry
 
Undecided
Undecided 9 years ago

One question: Why do you never hear a Muslin condem blowing up people, including children by their own demented followers? Why do different tribes of Muslins kill each other, sort of like the Catholics did to the Protestants many years ago? The old Judge R. had some insite when he said,"Religion is a snare and a racket."
Of course an individual may get some peace and meaning given to them by some words of a prophet(who was just as human as we are) and be able to feel a connection to some God who never shows up when man needs his help.
Ken P.
 
kerj2leev
kerj2leev 9 years ago


I do. He's limited himself by his own set of beliefs which currently won't let him explore Islam or Christianity from the inside. A limit is a limit, whichever side of the fence you place yourself...
LT
From the inside of what? Please explain.....
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Merry:
If I were you I wouldn't go defending the Prophet on this one. Aisha was most likely 9, with 10 being an upper limit. It was acceptable to the mores of the day, but indefensible by modern standards. Frankly I wouldn't even go there.
Glitter:
If the brand of Islam that Merry were supporting were encouraging paedophilia then you'd have a point, but as it is your comments seem misplaced. Should I reject all Christian denominations because the Catholic church has had its problems (which it appears to be seeking to address)? It would be a very black and white approach to life, much akin to the attitude we learnt from the WTS!
Kerj:
From the inside of what? Please explain.....
I hope you're not being intentionally obtuse. From the inside of those religions, of course... a mile in someone else's shoes, and all that.
I take no brook with his desire to avoid other religions, but acknowledge that it is still a self-emplaced fence due to his belief that they are unworthy of his attention.
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

"I do. He's limited himself by his own set of beliefs which currently won't let him explore Islam or Christianity from the inside. A limit is a limit, whichever side of the fence you place yourself..."
Two issues here. First, I'm guessing that WACs rejection of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, what-have-you, is, similar to my own, predicated on the fact that one does not accept the concept or the reality of the "supernatural" in any format. That being the case, once the possibility of a "supernatural" god-like being has been examined and rejected due to an overwhelming lack of evidence, the "flavour" of belief becomes irrelevant, they are all equally unbelievable.
Second, I agree, a limit is a limit. But we can debate over who has established more limits to their cognitive frameworks. The atheist or agnostic rejects the concept or worshipping of a god after reaching the empirical conclusion that there is simply not sufficient evidence to form that conclusion. Indeed, IMHO, there is as much evidence for god as there is for any other culturally constructed character, be it literary, religious or otherwise. Having said that, if some creature were to make itself known to me and conclusively demonstrate its existence to my faculties of sensation and perception beyond a reasonable doubt, I would unhesitatingly accept the reality of said being. I wouldnt "worship" it, but I would acknowledge its existence with satisfactory evidence.
On the other hand, the vast majority of believers take it as a "given" that there is a supernatural world, regardless of their standard of evidence and will not, for one millisecond, entertain the notion that indeed, we just may be completely alone in the universe, this life is all their is, and when we die, we simply cease to exist. They limit themselves to the notion that they will not obtain their afterlife without offering endless "submission" to some arbitrary god that has supposedly authored some "rule" book which dictates morality, habits, thinking, etc etc. Indeed, they have limited themselves by "needing" to believe in that which they will never be able to prove beyond the non-empirical confines of "faith"....
Who leads the more "limited" life? A human being that simply chooses to actualize their ephemeral existence to its maximum potential while freeing themselves from the chains of primordial superstitions? Or the devoted "believer", who chooses to live under the jackboot of some dictator in the sky, dreamed up by some ancient tribe of barbarians wandering in misery through the desert, forcing them to pray 5 times a day in the direction of some ancient rock in Saudi Arabia, and cover up their human essence with black rags over their heads and faces lest their beloved "god" should disapprove of their infidel behaviour?
I would finally ask the "christians" on the board: is Merry going to hell? I would next ask Merry: Are the christian infidels going to hell? Hmmmmm, I anticipate some "limited" ranges of responses if either polarity is being honest with the dictates of their own "faith" system.....
 
kerj2leev
kerj2leev 9 years ago


I hope you're not being intentionally obtuse. From the inside of those religions, of course... a mile in someone else's shoes, and all that.
I take no brook with his desire to avoid other religions, but acknowledge that it is still a self-emplaced fence due to his belief that they are unworthy of his attention
Not at all LT I was just wondering if you meant the inside of ones self, or the inside of those religions.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Oh, that's interesting. In the USA the age of consent was generally 10-12 until 1885, when it was lobbied by women reformers and social purists to raise it to 16. That's only 122 years ago...


Kerj:
Glad we're on the same page now
Kid:
As you are well aware, I take no issue with your conclusions. I would submit, however, that its not good science to dismiss anything that you cannot currently prove. This forms the whole basis of scientific enquiry.

For a relevant example, people have claimed "spiritual experiences" for as long as there have been people - FACT. Science has not yet empirically proven their source, though there are some excellent and plausible hypothesise.


is Merry going to hell?

To take a very strict Calvinist approach: Not likely, she already stated that she became a Christian at some point in her journey. You don't lose that status by becoming a Muslim.
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago

Yeah I guess I should follow a religion that tells me how to believe...yeah...that's not limiting my beliefs is it.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Ken: Why do you never hear a Muslin condem blowing up people, including children by their own demented followers?
Valid question. Why don't we hear this condemnation?
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/janardhan.php?articleid=4064
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1690624.stm
http://www.thedailystar.net/2003/10/15/d31015020530.htm
~Merry
 
Xena
Xena 9 years ago

Everyone is limited in their thinking one way or another. You can either accept those limits and defend them to the death or push past them. Doesn't mean you have to accept everything you find but at least you accept or reject with knowledge and continue to move forward.

interesting thread Merry
 
kerj2leev
kerj2leev 9 years ago

Everyone is limited in their thinking one way or another. You can either accept those limits and defend them to the death or push past them. Doesn't mean you have to accept everything you find but at least you accept or reject with knowledge and continue to move forward
But is that what Merry is doing when she is "becoming a Muslim", how is that moving forward?? Isn't she putting herself in another box?
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Kid-A: Are the christian infidels going to hell?
Although the Qur'an describes those who will go to hell so we can do our personal best to make sure we are not among them, judgment is for Allah alone and He reserves the right to pardon who He will. I do not know who is and who is not going to hell.
" Those with Faith, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who have Faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow." (Surat al-Baqara; 2:62).
" Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair admonition, and argue with them in the kindest way. Your Lord knows best who is misguided from His way. And He knows best who are guided." (Surat an-Nahl; 16:125).
~Merry
 

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Topic Summary
who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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Xena
Xena 9 years ago

In reading thru this thread it appears to me that Merry is still looking, questioning and seeking. She hasn't shut down any questions but has been open to them...hence she is continuing to push past her limits.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

WAC:I know you can do better than that. Why don't you try entering into discussion instead of blowing it off with a sarcastic one-liner...
Kerj:Aren't we all on the pathway of life, which takes many twists and turns? For some that means exploring various religions from the inside and out.
The moment we stagnate we might as well be dead, IMHO, for that is not how life evolves and acts.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Thanks, Xena. Question everything! that's my motto And it certainly is an interesting thread, but I can't take credit for that.
~Merry
 
glitter
glitter 9 years ago

Yeah I read the links, it's nothing I hadn't read before though.
If the brand of Islam that Merry were supporting were encouraging paedophilia then you'd have a point, but as it is your comments seem misplaced. Should I reject all Christian denominations because the Catholic church has had its problems (which it appears to be seeking to address)? It would be a very black and white approach to life, much akin to the attitude we learnt from the WTS!
 It's not the same as rejecting a faith because of what one denomination got wrong though - I'm talking about what the FOUNDER of the faith did, and disagreeing with what the FOUNDER did.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Merry
As an educated moden woman, how do you integrate your understanding of natural processes of the female body (like menstration) with Qur'anic et. al. dictats on this?
Allah obviously made women to bleed. We know this is nothing fearful or dirty. Yet women cannot "participarte in he performance of prayers" whilst menstrating. This is about as logical as a command from god as men not being able to pray whilst undergoing spermatogenesis, yet given the very frequent fear of menstration in primative cultures such as Islam stemmed from (and Judaism too) it is all to logical that a man might think this.
And female Imams; if women are equal, why don't we them?
Isn't it all a but 'all are equal but some are less equal than others' double-speak?
Very interesting to read you past experiences. I find it especially interesting you were interested in paganism and Wicca, both of which seem at poles to your current beliefs.
Do you feel you were less certain in the past (about the validity of your former beliefs) and are more certain now? Or do you feel the certainty you feel now is the same as the certainty you felt in the past? Do you preclude feeling yet more certain about different beliefs in the future? If so why?
 
kerj2leev
kerj2leev 9 years ago

Kerj:Aren't we all on the pathway of life, which takes many twists and turns? For some that means exploring various religions from the inside and out
I guess to me exploring and becoming are two different things! Becoming would mean an acceptence of belief and a following of set belief system, that is were I think she is limiting herself!
Merry are you still searching other religions while you are a Muslim?
 
tetrapod.sapien
tetrapod.sapien 9 years ago

hi merry! i must say, well done on the social front. as mentioned, it must take a lot (of ... ?) to become a muslim, being the person you are (white/idaho) and where you are coming from (xianity). it must have been a real psychological turn-over for you. congrats for making it this far. i too maintain a look and belief system that gets me unrequired attention from normies. some people have a hard time understanding radical psychological change in an individual, of course. in my case it's secular, but the social aspects of it have become obvious. you must be a strong individual. it's nice to see!
as far as islam, and God (gods), abraham and the koran etc. is concerned; well you probably know exactly what i think already, so we'll just leave it there.
use the force,
peace,
tetra
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

Merry,
I did not have a similar 'experience' in becoming a Muslim, although I have had some 'incidents' since then. I remain more detached from them now. I don't take them and run with them, so to speak. I wish I could speak more clearly on this. It's a little difficult to find the words. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I find that if I keep these things to myself or limit conversation to those who feel the same way I do, it becomes easier to lapse into laziness and even dishonesty with myself. Although I guess that can also be a danger when feeling constantly on the defense. I feel like this thread is striking a nice balance and I appreciate that.
No, I have no further questions. You have answered my question as best you can with honesty and dignity and I thank you for that.
I wish you well in the path you have chosen.
Kind regards - HS
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

I stand further corrected.
Age of consent was raised from 10 to 12 in the USA from: 1876 = 131 years ago.
Age of consent was finally raised to 16 in California from: 1897 = 110 years ago.
Suffrage, whereby women were finally allowed to vote, was: 1947 = 60 years ago.
The latter date is in the lifetime of quite a number of members of this Board. No doubt the Midle East will eventually catch up, but in the grand scheme of things they aren't all that many years behind the West in social ethics.
The age of consent in Canada is 14, with plans to increase it to 16 with clauses for near age relationships. Mexico is 12 and Japan 13. Current Worldwide laws are as follows: http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
Tis just a thought, for those who arbitarily see various countries as being barbaric (some think the reverse).
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Glitter:
He's been dead for nearly 1400 years, but only lived to the mores of his time period. Judging him by modern day standards is ridiculous. The chances are that you don't have to go too far back in your own family tree to find someone who married an under 16 year old. Do I need to condemn you the way that you are condemning others?
Kerj:Unless you want to wander off at all tangents, it pays to concentrate on one thing at a time, doncha think?
 
glitter
glitter 9 years ago

Merry - do you think you'll be moving to a larger city soon so you can associate with your Muslim brothers and sisters fully?
 Otherwise, mum's friend attends a mosque quite near us (10 min drive, ish - there are 2 closer but that's the one her family attends), and they radio broadcast all the services, so even if she isn't there (it's a very liberal mosque, but there still seems lots of reasons she's not allowed to attend: if she has her period, or sometimes I think it's only men allowed!) she can listen to the services while she's doing whatever - I assume this would be handy for Muslim taxi drivers and stuff too. The Imam conducts the services both English and Arabic. It might be worth ringing your "local" :smile: mosque and seeing if they have this. Otherwise there might be a phone link-up... nowadays there's probably a podcast! :grinning:
He's been dead for nearly 1400 years, but only lived to the mores of his time period. Judging him by modern day standards is ridiculous. The chances are that you don't have to go too far back in your own family tree to find someone who married an under 16 year old. Do I need to condemn you the way that you are condemning others?
 Oh absolutely I'm sure some will have been married under 16, but I'm not following any of them as an alleged prophet *after having left a religion because of a similar issue*.
 I know we're doing this to death and I *do* get your point, but for *me* following a man from such a very backward age (Jesus 600+ years earlier didn't have sex with little girls did he?! :grinning: ) after leaving the confines and scandal of the JWs would be a step backward too. :smile:
 
Euphemism
Euphemism 9 years ago

Good discussion, Merry! Mind if I keep questioning a little?
I did not know that much about Muslims at present or throughout history when I became a Muslim myself, and my decision (or awakening awareness) was not based on what others believe or do but on my own reading of the meaning of the Qur'an.
I do think this is the root of the reaction you're getting. When you say that you have 'become a Muslim', you mean that you have begun practicing your personal understanding of the meaning of the Quran. When other people hear that you have 'become a Muslim', they assume that you have accepted some form of Islam as it is typically practiced. There's a pretty big difference there, IMHO. (Not saying you're wrong to call yourself a Muslim, of course; just that poeple are likely to misunderstand what you mean.)
Although the Qur'an describes those who will go to hell so we can do our personal best to make sure we are not among them, judgment is for Allah alone and He reserves the right to pardon who He will. I do not know who is and who is not going to hell.
I'm sorry, but I have to say that when I heard that, my mind immediately flashed back to the answer the Witnesses are supposed to give if they're asked in the ministry whether they believe that non-JWs will be saved. "Well, we never know about any individual; we leave the judging up to Jehovah." We all know that's a smoke-screen, though, and that they actually believe that the vast majority of--if not all--non-Witnesses will die at Armageddon.
Obviously, you're not putting up a smoke-screen; you're a very sincere person, or else you wouldn't be talking to us like this. But I have to wonder, do you think that Allah is going to make an exception for most non-monotheists (polytheists and atheists)? (I realize that the People of the Book have a special status, but that still leaves nearly half the world's population.) If most of them are going to hell, is that a teaching that you can intellectually or emotionally accept? And if most are not, then what is the point of the statements in the Quran implying that they are?
 
Hado
Hado 9 years ago

God Bless you sister merry
Hope we will see more and more ex-JW who convert to Islam
 
Mrs Smith
Mrs Smith 9 years ago

I just don't get it. This is going off the topic a bit. Merry posted this thread and many of the post are respectful, posters asking questions and giving their own opinion. Some were encouraging and others were critical, but respectful. I have over the last few months read many posts where Christians have tried to express their thoughts and were shot down and mocked. I don't understand why a muslim post gets this kind of dingity (which I feel is awesome) and a christian post gets regected by most. Why not give everyone this kind of response, are we hanging on to WBTS double standards?
Merry all the best, I wish you all the joy and happiness.
 
kerj2leev
kerj2leev 9 years ago


&mode=related&search
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I'm so sorry for you Merry!
 
juni
juni 9 years ago

Oh, that's interesting. In the USA the age of consent was generally 10-12 until 1885, when it was lobbied by women reformers and social purists to raise it to 16.
Thank you Ross for the information. Years ago in an elder/MS meeting (my husband being a MS) this fact about the age of consent was brought out. The brothers were told NOT to inform others of this because it would cause a mass exodus of the teens if it got out within the young people. Isn't that sad?? In the US, there is also the "age of majority" which is 18. I have to research the two to make sure they are two separate laws.
I had brought this out quite awhile back, but didn't know where to find "the proof" about this. The consensus from the posters was that they had never heard of that before - the bit about the 16 year olds.
I'm sorry Merry - kind of off the subject at hand - I was thrilled when Ross put that out there.
I wish you the best in satisfying your spirituality. I do feel the Islamic religion as well as the Christian and others experience huge upheavals through the centuries to purify their beliefs and weeds out (doesn't sound very intellectual, does it?) those who don't want to respect their fellow man - those who use religion for a front to be murderous beings. People forever trying to find the path to their god. Were we meant to attain it through organized religion? I really don't have the answer - I thought I did at one time; not anymore.
Personally, I choose to stay away from organized religion. I don't feel the need to socialize w/those of like faith. I feel it is personal - one on one w/the Creator. I personally feel that all of these manmade philosophies and teachings are useless. I believe it all is very simple and basic. I believe mankind makes it more complex than it is.
Peace, Juni
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

MrsSmith:Its an interesting dual standard, isn't it? Its one that I constantly combat. As you'll be well aware, I'm always up to be challenged but it can get a little tedious at times. I'm glad that this thread has been treated with the tolerance and respect that it deserves
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago

WAC:I know you can do better than that. Why don't you try entering into discussion instead of blowing it off with a sarcastic one-liner...
Read this...tell me that this religion is not a cult ...would you personally believe this????


Islam Founder: Mohammed
Overview: There are two main texts consulted by Muslims:
1.the Qur'an (Recitation) are the words of God. Muslims believe that it was revealed to Mohammed by the archangel Jibril (Gabriel). This was originally in oral and written form; they were later assembled together into a single book, the Qur'an. Its name is often spelled "Koran" in English. This is not recommended, as some Muslims find it offensive.

2.The Hadith, which are collections of the sayings of Muhammad (pbuh). They are regarded as the Sunnah (lived example) of Muhammad. The Quran gives legitimacy to the Hadith. It states: "Nor does he say aught of his own desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him" (53:3-4). However, the writings are not regarded as having the same status as the Holy Qur'an; the latter is considered to be God's word. The great Islamic scholar Yahya bin Sharaf Ul-Deen An-Nawawi compiled a collection of 43 sayings of Prophet Mohammed. It is is now known as "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths"

The main difference between Islam and Christianity:

Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. Christianity is a faith in which God sent his Son to die for you.
Cult Beliefs:
◦They believe in a single, indivisible God. (God, the creator, is just, omnipotent and merciful. "Allah" is often used to refer to God; it is the Arabic word for God.)

◦The supremacy of God's will.

◦They divine scriptures, which include the Torah, the Psalms, the rest of the Bible, (as they were originally revealed) and the Qur'an (which is composed of God's words, dictated by the angel Gabriel to Mohammed).

◦They believe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Mohammed were messengers of God; Mohammed being the last prophet. Mohammed's message is considered superior to Jesus because Islam's founder is believed to have brought God's final revelation.

◦They believe that God did not have a son.

◦They believe that Jesus was only a prophet, born of the virgin Mary. They reject the deity of Jesus; it is seen as a form of polytheism.

◦They believe Jesus was not executed on the cross, instead He escaped crucifixion and was taken up into Paradise.

◦The believe in the existence of Satan who drives people to sin.

◦They believe Muslims who sincerely repent and submit to God return to a state of sinless perfection.

◦They believe all children are born on Al-Fitra (a pure, natural state of submission to Islam). A person's parents sometimes make them Christian, Jewish, etc.

◦They believe when a child reaches puberty an account of their deeds is opened in Paradise. When the person dies, their eventual destination (Paradise or Hell) depends on the balance of their good deeds (helping others, testifying to the truth of God, leading a virtuous life) and their bad deeds.

◦They believe in a day of Judgment when people will be judged on the basis of their deeds while on earth, and will either attain reward of Heaven or punishment in Hell. They do not believe that Jesus or any other individual can atone for another person's sin. Hell is where unbelievers and sinners spend eternity. One translation of the Qur'an, 98:1-8, states: "The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." ("People of the Book" refers to Christians, Jews and Muslims). Paradise is a place of physical and spiritual pleasure where the sinless go after death.

◦They believe alcohol, drugs, fornication, eating of pork, and gambling should be avoided; however, once in Paradise, Muslim men may drink as much alcohol as they can and have sex with an unlimited number of young virgins for eternity.
 
 
Caedes
Caedes 9 years ago

I would submit, however, that its not good science to dismiss anything that you cannot currently prove. This forms the whole basis of scientific enquiry.
LT,
I apologise for answering a point aimed at Kid-A but I think you were a little wide of the mark in your comment above, surely science, in the interests of pragmatism alone would do very well to dismiss things it can't prove.
First and foremost I assume we are talking about falsifiability rather than proof. You could have a hypothesis' that is awaiting 'proof' through experimental testing etc
Somehow I doubt anybody could get much of a research grant to study anything that we are incapable of quantifying. Obviously there is a world of difference between what we can't prove yet and things we will never be able to falsify. As I'm sure you are aware you could always prove me wrong and claim your million!
nitpickingly respectful
Caedes
apologies for the thread hi-jacking
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

LT & Mrs Smith,
I have over the last few months read many posts where Christians have tried to express their thoughts and were shot down and mocked. I don't understand why a muslim post gets this kind of dingity (which I feel is awesome) and a christian post gets regected by most. Why not give everyone this kind of response, are we hanging on to WBTS double standards?
I do not think that it is a display of double standards, for a number of reasons.
1) Most people who post to this Board are very knowledgable about Christianity but know very little, if anything about Islam. With many of it is more a fact-finding mission, not a declaration of standards.
2) Merry, as does LT, represents herself with dignity, humility and honesty, qualities very often missing in Christians who post to this Board.
3) Hado, who has come to this Board to preach and peddle his particular brand of religious hypocrisy is being given the same vigorous treatment as would any Christian fundy who comes here to talk at people rather than with people.
It is all in the delivery.
HS
 

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Topic Summary
who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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ivanatahan
Influence of Death in the Mind
by ivanatahan 9 months ago
PhilsWager2
What's the Worst Gossip You Heard About Why You were DF'ed, Faded or Left and Never Came Back? They say "I am gay!"
by PhilsWager2 10 months ago
Jerryh
Romans 6:7
by Jerryh 2 months ago



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago

as does LT, represents herself with dignity, humility and honesty
OH PLEASE!!!!!
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 9 years ago

WAC,
"Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. Christianity is a faith in which God sent his Son to die for you."
A breathtaking summary of cheap bigoted Christian prejudice...
tell me that this religion is not a cult ...
A religion which embraces nearly one quarter of mankind, with stunning inner diversity of beliefs and practices, hardly qualifies as a "cult" if I understand the common use of this English word correctly -- although there are certainly a number of Islamic "cults" as there are Christian "cults". And this has nothing to do with their (limited) set of common beliefs.
would you personally believe this ????
No, but at some point I realised that it was absolutely no less believeable than the average Jewish or Christian set of beliefs.
Incidentally, one moment of realisation I still recall was in Jerusalem, on the temple mount, about 15 years ago. Our guide (a Jew, an Israeli and an archaeologist) made an excellent summary of the consecutive narrative strata (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) which were built over that place. It suddenly came down on me how absurd it was to look up to one part of this fairly consistent legendary corpus as highly respectable and to look down on the other partas plain stupid. Once he remarked, "if you want to get a mental picture of what the people in the Second temple period were like, don't look there (at the Jewish worship spot facing the Wall of Laments) but here (in the mosques area)". This day was a big step to me in realising and moving from my (henceforth unconscious) religious prejudice.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

WAC:This from the guy with a blowup doll and a cut and paste attitude to Fundamentalist Christian websites?
Caedes:
As I have stated many times, I mean only that scientific enquiry starts with the imagination to find something to explore and quantify. If scientists lose this imaginative aspect of their profession then we are condemned to just catalogue the natural world, and might as well give up Quantum science right now...
The mantra should be "what if...?"
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Didier:

would you personally believe this ????
No, but at some point I realised that it was absolutely no less believeable than the average Jewish or Christian set of beliefs.
Very well put
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago

This from the guy with a blowup doll
Okay, that is a low blow

A breathtaking summary of cheap bigoted Christian prejudice...
Nark: Call the facts whatever you want to call them.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Okay, that is a low blow
You've hardly been the most intelligent of conversation on this thread, yourself...
When you decide to loose yourself from the confines of religious bigotry, maybe you'll find yourself able to express a tolerant opinion that addresses the real issues of an individuals choice of lifestyle.
I don't agree with Merry's conclusions, but I'll fight for the right for her to express them, insofar as if it "harm none".
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 9 years ago


A breathtaking summary of cheap bigoted Christian  prejudice...
Nark: Call the facts whatever you want to call them.
Sorry WAC, my remark was aimed explicitly at this:
" Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him . Christianity is a faith in which God sent his Son to die for you."
Neither of those two sentences qualifies as fact to me, and the two put together make up a shameful, dishonest comparison of the utterly uncomparable. (1) Suicide attacks in a recentpolitical context disguised as the description of a 13-century-old religion; (2) a Christian theological and apologetical statement.
If you want to compare (1) with something comparable, try the Catholic and Protestant militiae in Northern Ireland, or the Christian ones in Lebanon. If you want to compare (2) with something comparable, try "'Allah merciful and gracious". But please don't compare the worst of A with the best of B. You are ruining your cause, whatever it is.
 
What-A-Coincidence
What-A-Coincidence 9 years ago

Nark: You got me man. Praise ALLAH!
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

WAC,
Nark: You got me man.
You state this as if it is something out of the ordinary.
Judging from the content of your posts on this thread, you could be 'got' by a blind archer. HS
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

WAC,

as does LT, represents herself with dignity, humility and honesty
OH PLEASE!!!!!
I take it that you disagree with my assessment of the posting style of Merry?  It is always an idea to present evidence for your views rather than blowing hot air, that is, if credibility is an issue with you. HS
 
TopHat
TopHat 9 years ago

Merry? Are there many branches and different beliefs in the Muslim religion? Like in the Christian religion there is the Baptist, Catholic and so on.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 9 years ago

http://www.religion-cults.com/Islam/islam5.html
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

I don't seem to be able to post the response I just composed. I keep getting an error message. I will try this as a test.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

kerj2leev:
Merry are you still searching other religions while you are a Muslim?
I don't really have time, but I am interested in continuing to learn about other religions.
I'm trying to answer everyone in order but am having to save my response to Abaddon as I have been unable to post it for some reason.
~Merry
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Thanks, tetra and HS and Juni. Peace and best wishes to you too.


Glitter: Merry - do you think you'll be moving to a larger city soon so you can associate with your Muslim brothers and sisters fully? No plans to do. I can't take my daughter away from her father and he won't move, so I'm pretty well tethered it seems. Thanks for the tips though, that was very kind of you. I respect your feelings about early marriage, and I don't think there is any more for me to say on the matter.
 
  
 
Euphamism: Good discussion, Merry! Mind if I keep questioning a little? Not at all.
I do think this is the root of the reaction you're getting. When you say that you have 'become a Muslim', you mean that you have begun practicing your personal understanding of the meaning of the Quran. When other people hear that you have 'become a Muslim', they assume that you have accepted some form of Islam as it is typically practiced. There's a pretty big difference there, IMHO. (Not saying you're wrong to call yourself a Muslim, of course; just that poeple are likely to misunderstand what you mean.) I think I have accepted Islam as it is typically practiced by many, or at least I am trying to learn and practice. What I was saying is that my acceptance of the Qur'an came first and almost independently of that. It didn't remain independant and isolated however.
....Obviously, you're not putting up a smoke-screen; you're a very sincere person, or else you wouldn't be talking to us like this. But I have to wonder, do you think that Allah is going to make an exception for most non-monotheists (polytheists and atheists)? (I realize that the People of the Book have a special status, but that still leaves nearly half the world's population.) If most of them are going to hell, is that a teaching that you can intellectually or emotionally accept? And if most are not, then what is the point of the statements in the Quran implying that they are? I may not be totally clear or correct on this, but as I understand it at this point, Allah will not be unjust to anyone. All will be judged fairly, depending on whether or not they did their best with the knowledge and understanding they had. If they were given the monotheistic Message and its attendant laws and principles, understood it, and still rejected it, fought against it and its followers, sought to alter it, etc., then hell.
Mrs. Smith: I just don't get it. This is going off the topic a bit. Merry posted this thread and many of the post are respectful, posters asking questions and giving their own opinion. Some were encouraging and others were critical, but respectful. I have over the last few months read many posts where Christians have tried to express their thoughts and were shot down and mocked. I don't understand why a muslim post gets this kind of dingity (which I feel is awesome) and a christian post gets regected by most. Why not give everyone this kind of response, are we hanging on to WBTS double standards? This is an interesting observation and I hope more will add their own observations and perspectives to it. My own observation is that Islam and Muslims as a topic have been treated very disrespectfully here, for the most part. That is why I originally started talking about it and giving my viewpoint on matters. And yet I have been treated very respectfully on an individual level. I'm glad. I think it is much easier to have useful discussions that way. I don't wish for anyone to be treated badly. Thanks for your comments in that regard, LT and HS! Good points. Although Hado may have got off on the wrong foot and stumbled into a hornets' nest here, I don't find him to be at all an unpleasant or hypocritical person.
No worries about the harmless hi-jacking, Caedes.
TopHat: Merry? Are there many branches and different beliefs in the Muslim religion? Like in the Christian religion there is the Baptist, Catholic and so on. I do not know much about it myself yet, so I do not know if this is correct, but here is a link that talks about that-- http://en.allexperts.com/e/d/di/divisions_of_islam.htm But the Qur’an says: “And hold fast, all of you together to the rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves.” (3:103) http://www.pakistanlink.com/Opinion/2004/July04/2/08.html I know there are some Sunnis and Shias who feel that their holding to the essentials of Islam (the 5 Pillars of worship and the basic beliefs) unites them in Islam in spite of their other divisions.
~Merry
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Abaddon, I always feel a mixture of dread and delight when you show up.
As an educated moden woman, how do you integrate your understanding of natural processes of the female body (like menstration) with Qur'anic et. al. dictats on this?
Allah obviously made women to bleed. We know this is nothing fearful or dirty. Yet women cannot "participarte in he performance of prayers" whilst menstrating. This is about as logical as a command from god as men not being able to pray whilst undergoing spermatogenesis, yet given the very frequent fear of menstration in primative cultures such as Islam stemmed from (and Judaism too) it is all to logical that a man might think this. Yes, menstruation is natural and not fearful, but I would argue that it is dirty. Not in the sense of bad, shameful, evil, or contaminating to men, but in the most natural sense. Before prayer, men and women are both required to cleanse themselves after sleeping, defecating, urinating, vomiting, bleeding or oozing from a wound, etc. So why is it unfair for women to not be able to pray until after they stop bleeding (both menstrual and post-partum) and are able to cleanse themselves? As well as showing respect to Allah, from my own experience I would say it is a kindness and a mercy to be exempt from fasting and from salat prayer at those times. And we can still make du'a prayer. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/impur.htm
And female Imams; if women are equal, why don't we them?I think it is because there is no Prophetic tradition that can be pointed to for having women lead men in prayer (many agree that they can lead other women in prayer, and some say they can also lead unqualified men in prayer within their own households) and there are some proofs for why they should not. I have not done much research on it as it has been a non-issue for me. There are some who are pushing for this. I wonder why. Is it for the sake of Allah or for their own sake? By asking these questions I do not believe I am judging women for wanting this or wanting not to wear hijab. It is simply a reminder that as Muslims we must always question our own motives in order to purify ourselves, and we must encourage each other to do this as well. I feel that there are very important, legitimate issues of oppression and discrimination that should be addressed, but I do not think this is one of them.
When Imam Shakir was addressing this issue here, I liked this point:

Islam has never advocated a liberationist philosophy. Our fulfillment in this life will never come as the result of breaking real or perceived chains of oppression. That does not mean that we should not struggle against oppressive practices and institutions. However, when we understand that success in such worldly struggles has nothing to do with our fulfillment as human beings, we will be able to keep those struggles in perspective, and not be moved to frustration or despair when their outcomes are counter to our plans.
Our fulfillment does not lie in our liberation, rather it lies in the conquest of our soul and its base desires That conquest only occurs through our enslavement to God. Our enslavement to God in turn means that we have to suppress many of our souls’ desires and inclinations. Therein lies one of the greatest secrets to unleashing our real human potential. This is so because it is our human potential that separates us from the rest of this creation, and it is to the extent that we are able to conquer our physical nature that we realize that spiritual potential.
We must all realize that we will never achieve any meaningful change in our situation relying on our own meager resources. The great sage Ibn ‘Ata Allah as-Sakandari has said, "Nothing you seek through your Lord will ever be difficult; and nothing you seek through yourself will ever be easy." 77 Now is the time to give ourselves to our Lord, totally. The trials and tribulations we are currently witnessing will only intensify as we move closer to the end of time. If we are not living for our Lord, relying on His guidance and help, and trusting in His wisdom, we will find it very difficult to negotiate our way through this world.
When we live for our Lord it becomes easy to live with each other. If in our personal relations we can come to embody the spirit of mutual love, mercy and affection, encouraged by our Prophet, peace and blessings of God be upon him, we will be able to make a beautiful and lasting contribution towards the uplift of men and women alike. The times we live in cry out for such a contribution. The question is, "Who will respond?"
Isn't it all a but 'all are equal but some are less equal than others' double-speak? You will probably continue to feel this way no matter what I say, and I will continue to feel otherwise. I only hope none of us will let our perspective on this obscure the more important issues that need to be addressed. I am sure you feel that 'equal but different' and 'equity not equality' are just more ways of masking unfairness while I feel that they are ways of explaining a fairness that many just don't like. Here is another quote I like, taken from a discussion on female Imams: (sorry I couldn't change the font size)
What we so often forget is that God has honored women by giving them value in relation to God - not in relation to men. But as Western feminism erases God from the scene, there is no standard left but men. As a result, the Western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing, she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man-the standard.
Very interesting to read you past experiences. I find it especially interesting you were interested in paganism and Wicca, both of which seem at poles to your current beliefs. Thanks. Yes, very different. No one could be more surprised at my changes than me, except maybe my best friend.
Do you feel you were less certain in the past (about the validity of your former beliefs) and are more certain now? Or do you feel the certainty you feel now is the same as the certainty you felt in the past? Do you preclude feeling yet more certain about different beliefs in the future? If so why? I feel that I have always been equally certain about my beliefs, jumping in with both feet so as to gain the fullest experience, while yet continuing to question and explore and challenge from 'within' that experience. Unfortunately hindsight cannot be applied to the present. I do believe in looking before you leap, but, for me, it can't be all looking and no leaping.
~Merry
 
bernadette
bernadette 9 years ago

Merry, I'm just curious cos when I was growing up we used to have small groups of travelling sufis visiting our area and they'd put on a show for everybody. To me they were such a liberated, happy band of people - it was even whispered that they tolerated homosexuality - we did not feel judgemental just awestruck.
Now that I am questioning everything, what do I find - the sufis fall into the group we speak of of as mystics and they all beliieve and have believed (down through the ages) the same things through their own experiences.
I notice though that you have labelled such experiences as 'romanticism'. Do you therefore discard them or have you put them on hold as it were.
bernadette
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Merry:


Allah will not be unjust to anyone.

There's a marked difference between justice and mercy, as illustrated by the following anecdote:.
A capured deserter was due to be shot by Napoleon Boneparte. His mother begged for pardon, to which Boneparte is alleged to have said "what has he done to deserve mercy?", to which she replied "if he had deserved it then it would not be mercy!".
Bernadette:
If I were to turn to Islam then I like to think it would be the mystical Sufi, although the Whirling Dervishes are perhaps a little OTT for my tastes
 
zagor
zagor 9 years ago

I find Merry's decision refreshing actually. I don't necessarily agree with her views on life but I salute people who dare to be different despite bigotry and overwhelming stupidity of those around them. I think her new views will bring another flavor to this forum and 'god' knows we need people like that here. Danger is not so much in religion itself or most ideologies for that matter, but in attempt to forcefully impose those views on others. Some of those who oppose islam for alleged limitations of choice and freedom are doing exactly the same by trying to impose their limiting views on others about the islam.
 Fundamentalist Christianity is just as dangerous and fundamentalist Islam, no difference there. Any religion or ideology that limits the freedom of thought, rational research and impartial investigation is indeed dangerous. If we are to list those I would start with many "christian" denominations....
 
tijkmo
tijkmo 9 years ago

merry are you still writing songs..
i was working with a muslim boy at the weekend...and what started as an interesting conversation about religious beliefs soon turned into - 'i am right and you are damned' .
in the end i just ended up agreeing with him cos i couldnt be bothered arguing (shouting in a nightclub is not in anyway condusive to productive conclusions which is why i guess most conversations are of the get your coat you've pulled variety) and i couldnt get away...
i did tell him i had a friend who had recently converted...thats you merry btw....and he said to ask you some stuff.
notable in what decent conversation we had before the music started blaring was that
1. he did not condemn the fanatics
2. he did not agree that there were different types of muslims..sunni shiite etc are all the same seemingly.
3. he said that while people convert to islam from other religions, no-one ever converts to other religions from islam - something i was able to refute on the basis of knowing that i am aware of muslims that became jws - one of whom was killed by the father. i made the point to him that given the threat of death if they were going to change a limited conversion rate is hardly surprising.
4. not allowed to eat ham..(he thought he was unique in this - didnt seem to realise that jews arent either)
5. not allowed to touch far less drink alchohol...but have no objection to tobacco. - seemingly imbibing alchohol at all can potentially lead to overindulgence and cause someone to act stupidly...and this is far more serious than dying of tobacco related diseases.
did you get the emailed songs btw.
ian
 

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Topic Summary
who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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KW13
KW13 9 years ago

Merry we've talked a few times via pm in the past and you seem a bright and cheerful person.
For me, being a muslim would be a huge thing which i could never adjust to and i don't have an attraction to that anyway. However i wish you all the best on your new adventure and i hope that if you don't finally discover a religion where you fit in, you learn more about yourself and gain more experience where the Watchtower Society deprived you.
Please be careful, i am sure you know a lot more about it than me (i have little or no experience with muslims although the people i know who are seem very nice) but don't do anything you don't want to do.


 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Re. the "Ooooo, Christians have a hell of a time" sub-topic.
I am at a loss to explain how people can miss those threads where posters express negative feelings about Islam way way over and above any antipathy they have for Christianity.
Please show me a thread where multiple posters have alleged the Christianity is an intrinsically evil religion in its most commonly practised forms today, resulting in terrorism, religious war, a massive disregard for the rights of women to be free and equal, and pretty low expectations as regards freedom of speech.

Why do people feel that hanging the sign "religiously predicated opinion" means people should bite their tongue if they disagree?
A neo-con gets a certain reaction due to how they express their opinions. A socialist gets a certain reaction due to hw the express their opinions. Christians and Muslims get certain reactions, guess what; according to how they express their opinions. Look how Merry gets a different reaction to other Muslim posters, say Hado for example. Look how LittleToe gets a different reaction to other Christian posters.
And it is not just about how the opinion is expressed; a smiley "you're going to hell" ala Westboro Baptist Church doesn't sweeten the pill.
I don't really see that much bias towards Christians here after one factors out Christian topics maybe being of interest to more posters due to our common past.
In any case, the meek shall inherit the Earth, in the words of Mrs. Big Nose "Oh, it's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time."
What-A-Coincidence
I don't see what point you are trying to make with the cut & paste job. It shows either you are totally unaware many Christians can be classified as cultists if you play the same game in reverse, or are aware of this but seek to traduce Islam because of some bigotry on your part.
Maybe next time you can display further stunning displays of impartial analysis by cut and pasting 'Why you should hate Jews" off a Fascist website? I am sure it will be as fair and unbiased as the trash you've inflicted on us regarding Muslims. Not that I'm saying you hate Jews, just the bias of your sources renders your 'argument' worthless.
Merry

Abaddon, I always feel a mixture of dread and delight when you show up.
Now you're making me blush... :wink:

Yes, menstruation is natural and not fearful, but I would argue that it is dirty. Not in the sense of bad, shameful, evil, or contaminating to men, but in the most natural sense. Before prayer, men and women are both required to cleanse themselves after sleeping, defecating, urinating, vomiting, bleeding or oozing from a wound, etc. So why is it unfair for women to not be able to pray until after they stop bleeding (both menstrual and post-partum) and are able to cleanse themselves? As well as showing respect to Allah, from my own experience I would say it is a kindness and a mercy to be exempt from fasting and from salat prayer at those times. And we can still make du'a prayer. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/impur.htm

The problem is that the superstitions about women's menstruation are pre-Islamic. They are pretty musch universal in culture after culture. To me this is a sure indication we're dealing with patriarchal misogyny as the founding principle behind the law, rather than Allah's will, whatever claimed provenance Islamic scripture has.
And seeing it from a reverse angle doesn't work well for me; if it WAS a kindness and mercy, then women who suffered badly from menstration would be exused if they wanted but those whowanted to attend could attend. One could say the exclusion of black people from academia in the past was a kindness and a mercy, saving them all that hard study and work. But as black people were denied equality by such actions, and didn't have the option TO attend, such a characterisation doesn't stand scrutiny.
The misogyny of it is really made apparent by non-menstruating women not being able to stand with the men and worship.



And female Imams; if women are equal, why don't we them?
I think it is because there is no Prophetic tradition that can be pointed to for having women lead men in prayer (many agree that they can lead other women in prayer, and some say they can also lead unqualified men in prayer within their own households) and there are some proofs for why they should not.

But no one would expect there to be female examples in the time of the Prophet; the culture wouldn't stand it.
I think one area causing our difference in analysis is perhaps the presumption of inspiration. I don't see the Qur'an as being more-or-less inspired than the Bible or the Guru Granth or the .

They all contain factual errors. I know you posted a nice link to a site promoting Islamic Creationism, but without going too much off topic, although tending towards the OEC (Old Earth, no six 24-hour days Young Earth nonsense as you frequently hear from Biblical literalists) side of Creationism (which is very similar to that advanced by JW's, as it happens), it still falls far short of being a convincing argument and is error ridden;

The reason why a special chapter is assigned to the collapse of the theory of evolution is that this theory constitutes the basis of all anti-spiritual philosophies. Since Darwinism rejects the fact of creation, and therefore the existence of God, during the last 140 years it has caused many people to abandon their faith or fall into doubt.
Harun Yahya in "Fascism: The Bloody Ideology of Darwinism" (Istanbul: Kultur, 2002)
This is utter nonsense; evolution does not rule out the existence of god. And any characterisation that evolution is a theory in crisis is totally without merit. It is accepted as largely accurate by the vast majority of scientists, has NEVER ben falsified as a theory (despite this being easy to do), is a fantastic tool to explain how things are the way they are in nature, and as a vast level of supporting evidence across multiple scientific disciplines.
What I have read so far of Islamic Creationism reveals they make much of how impossible it is form the Universe to spring from nothing, but assume god either spring from nothing or was always there. Neither belief is provable, so the mockery of non-theistic theories of origin aC being unprovable is inappropriate. And although some Muslims try to argue the Flood (which really, really, really did not happen as it says in the Bible) was local, the Qur'anic account implies otherwise, and thus supports an event we know didn't happen.

Noah said: `O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth! For if Thou dost leave (any of them), they will but mislead Thy devotees, and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.'" S. 71:26-27
Thus I have substantiatable reasons to take Qur'anic (or any other 'holy' writings) as uninspired, prone to error and illogicity as they are.
You seem to feel the Qur'an IS reliable.
If you are interested we can talk about these topic (evolution and whether the Qur'an is inspired) in another thread.

I have not done much research on it as it has been a non-issue for me.
Yeah, that's kinda what I meant when Imention your involvement with Wicca and Paganism. Wicca to hijab is a very very long way. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop as this is such a strack change

There are some who are pushing for [female Imams]. I wonder why.
Because they are unwilling to let HUMAN tradition stop them from being involved in their Spiritual calling?

Is it for the sake of Allah or for their own sake? By asking these questions I do not believe I am judging women for wanting this or wanting not to wear hijab.
You unavoidably do pass an implicit judgement (by, for example, questioning their motives) even if you are a nice enough human being not to make it explicit.

Islam has never advocated a liberationist philosophy.
Yeah, well neither did Christianity until the 19th Century. The liberationist (if by liberationist you mean someone for the disestablishment of the church, as distinct from liberal) philosophy stems from secularism and humanism.
But Islam HAS had historically the latitude for different versions of itself, even in the same geographical locale. Thus rather than branding change in line with modern values as 'liberationism' or some-such, I see a historic precedent for latitude of belief that would make the hijab issue a non issue.

Our fulfillment does not lie in our liberation, rather it lies in the conquest of our soul and its base desires That conquest only occurs through our enslavement to God.
Is that Sunni Allah or Shia Allah? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm making a point. Yes, I can agree your religious experience is about conquering your base nature and submitting to god. But you are not so much enslaving yourself to god, but enslaving yourself to one particular tradition of god that cannot hold itself above others and demonstrate it is better. If it is about god then the idea of Sunni Allah or Shia Allah, hijab Allah or non-hijab Allah, all becomes human vanity and symbolism and irrelevant to your core task, submitting to god internally as you experience god.

Our enslavement to God in turn means that we have to suppress many of our souls’ desires and inclinations. Therein lies one of the greatest secrets to unleashing our real human potential. This is so because it is our human potential that separates us from the rest of this creation, and it is to the extent that we are able to conquer our physical nature that we realize that spiritual potential.
Now is the time to give ourselves to our Lord, totally. The trials and tribulations we are currently witnessing will only intensify as we move closer to the end of time
Oh please not the Mahdi. Please, do two things for me. Find the Qur'anic reference to the Mahdi. You probably already know I know that you almost cetainly know there isn't any.
Second, ponder on why you are now believing in what you were brought up to believe. You come from a background with Millenialist beliefs. You have adopted a school of Islam with similar beliefs. "The world is a terrible place and will end soon. God/Allah will make it better". Do you see a pattern here? Maybe you have been drawn to a 'solution' you LIKE or are subconsciously drawn to, rather than one which is obviously 'true' in comparison to other beliefs.
How much submission is here in going after your own desires? I'm not saying that to be mean, but to trigger self-analysis.
The quotation about female Imams is rife with error; just as evolutionism has nothing to do with the god existing or not, so to feminism has nothing to do with god existing or not. It very elegantly tries to turn the tables so the discussion is not about equality with men but about having value to god, but neglects the fact that many traditional Islamic ways show god does not value men and women equally; not as different equals (which is what they are), but as different in-equals.

I feel that I have always been equally certain about my beliefs, jumping in with both feet so as to gain the fullest experience, while yet continuing to question and explore and challenge from 'within' that experience. Unfortunately hindsight cannot be applied to the present. I do believe in looking before you leap, but, for me, it can't be all looking and no leaping.
You're very honest to answer like this. And I hope that whilst one cannot apply hindsight to past choices, one can use the experience of past choices to reflect on present ones, and to realise the role one's own inclinations can have in one's choices and susceptibilities.
Like I say, if it's about your subconscious yearning for something clear-cut and certain that promises an end to the problems of the world, then it ain't submission to god but a form of shirk, with your own desires being the idol (even if you're not aware of it).
For me this is the chief pitfall of any spiritual search; as it is search without external proof or validation, but one which lies on internal resonance, the risk is that as there IS no external counterpart to validate our beliefs as we have worshipped god as we would like him to be, not as god may be.
As something pretty close to an atheist I find that the traditional concepts of god are either unprovable and/or massively human in their inhumanity and awfully limited by the limited primitive beliefs of their followers.
"My" Allah doesn't care about 'hats' on women, or ham on plates, or about this theory of origin or that theory of origin. It cares about the love in your heart.

I think you have love in your heart, but just wish you didn't have all the baggage you associate as being necessary for a relationship with god based on what some bloke said.
As we actually don't know if some bloke DID say it, and even if he did whether it WAS inspired or not, you heart is as reliable as a pile of Bibles or stack of Qur'ans as long as you cherish other's lives as your own (which is as much enlightened self-interest as humanitarianism).
People say not believing in god makes one one's own god. But putting a belief in a god without proof means we are doing exactly that; elevating opinion to the level of deity. It is ironic that both theists and non-theists commit the same 'sin' at the end of the day.
All the best Merry, a pleasure discussing things with you.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Gyles:
As ever you make some fascinating comments.
I don't really see that much bias towards Christians here after one factors out Christian topics maybe being of interest to more posters due to our common past.
The only thing that I would specifically suggest is that it is usually raised up as the default example of why religion is so hideous. Given our common background in coming from a so-called Christian religion, perhaps that's not so surprising, though.

In any case, the meek shall inherit the Earth, in the words of Mrs. Big Nose "Oh, it's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time."
LOL - Gotta love Life of Brian, for irreverently enabling us to question basic premises.
I'm making a point. Yes, I can agree your religious experience is about conquering your base nature and submitting to god. But you are not so much enslaving yourself to god, but enslaving yourself to one particular tradition of god that cannot hold itself above others and demonstrate it is better. If it is about god then the idea of Sunni Allah or Shia Allah, hijab Allah or non-hijab Allah, all becomes human vanity and symbolism and irrelevent to your core task, submitting to god internally as you experience god.
That's such a good point. Its a difficult tension between tolerance and a framework of belief that makes sense of the [supernatural] world.
For me this is the chief pitfall of any spritual search; as it is search without external proof or validation, but one which lies on internal resonance, the risk is that as there IS no external counterpart to validate our beliefs as we have worshipped god as we would like him to be, not as god may be.
Agreed. As such religion can be a perilous stepping stone.

"My" Allah doesn't care about 'hats' on women, or ham on plates, or about this theory of origin or that theory of origin. It cares about the love in your heart.

I think you have love in your heart, but just wish you didn't have all the baggage you associate as being neccesary for a relationship with god based on what some bloke said.
I think you've cut right through to the nub of spirituality right there. He does have a penchant for rainbows, though
People say not believing in god makes one one's own god. But putting a belief in a god without proof means we are doing exactly that; elevating opinon to the level of deity. It is ironic that both theists and non-theists commit the same 'sin' at the end of the day.
We all love our idols, don't we?
 
tijkmo
tijkmo 9 years ago

He does have a penchant for rainbows, though
'and rainbows always turn to grey'...... m. y'tara 2006
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Silver is just another shade of grey
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

kerj2leev said:
&mode=related&search
= I'm so sorry for you Merry!
Watched the clip. Gee what surprise that a bunch of Muslim men are preaching that women are "defective" and how you're supposed to hit them if they don't want to go out covered from head to toe. What a surprise that they're still teaching that a woman should walk behind the man and how it's okay to marry a 9 or 10 year old girl, or that a great jihad is coming against the "infidel".
One thing that was said that I believe: There's going to be a takeover by Islam one of these days, because we're so bloody busy trying to appear "politically correct" by not condemning the culture for it's barbaric nature. I weep for the future.
 
bernadette
bernadette 9 years ago

Bernadette:
If I were to turn to Islam then I like to think it would be the mystical Sufi, although the Whirling Dervishes are perhaps a little OTT for my tastes
Yeah your right LT ....scottish dancing is more sedate
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

Mary,

One thing that was said that I believe: There's going to be a takeover by Islam one of these days, because we're so bloody busy trying to appear "politically correct" by not condemning the culture for it's barbaric nature. I weep for the future.
Do not worry about the future. Social evolution and free access to education will gradually change all religions, including fundamentalist Christianity, as it has in the past. Islam is no exception. Either it will change, or it will break, but either way Islamophobia is just a frightened persons hysterical retreat.
Draw a line from A - Z. 'A' is primitive religion, 'Z' is the religious end of Quantum Physics. Imho every religion has in one way or the other walked in each others footsteps at one time or the other along this line. You are a Christian, who is I am sure embarrassed by the excesses of Christianity in the Dark Ages, and of the barbaric behavior of Jews in ancient times. The yesterday of Christianity, is merely the today of Islam. Islam being a religious way of life that is inseparable from its political ideologies, has been unable to socially evolve with the ease with which Christianity has.
Time will change it or break it.
HS
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

You know what hillary? That actually made me feel better what you said.
 
needproof
needproof 9 years ago

"I weep for the future."
Hell so do I. Can you imagine another dark age of Christianity? No thank-you.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Hillary:Well said.
The scaremongering of political propaganda has much to answer for, in dividing fellows.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

I only have a moment but wanted to say thanks to KW. I'm glad to have had the chance to "meet" you here at JWD. My best to you and yours.
Abaddon, I feel you missed the point about menstruation being only one of the things we are required to purify ourselves after and before we pray. Why is that the only one that bothers you? Because it has been treated with unhealthy regard by other religions? It is not viewed the same way in Islam (or isn't supposed to be; I can't speak to the attitudes of every Muslim in every culture; some of us do still hold on to non-Islamic attitudes).
You seem to feel the Qur'an IS reliable. Yes.

If you are interested we can talk about these topic (evolution and whether the Qur'an is inspired) in another thread. Cool. I look forward to a chance to explore this topic more, whether on another thread or on my own.


You unavoidably do pass an implicit judgement (by, for example, questioning their motives) even if you are a nice enough human being not to make it explicit. I am truly not trying judge anyone (including myself), but when I observe things with which I do not agree, I feel a call to self-reflection and I try to express the hope that others will do the same. I believe we can question motives without judging them. We are doing a lot of that on this thread, imo.


Our enslavement to God in turn means that we have to suppress many of our souls’ desires and inclinations. Therein lies one of the greatest secrets to unleashing our real human potential. This is so because it is our human potential that separates us from the rest of this creation, and it is to the extent that we are able to conquer our physical nature that we realize that spiritual potential.
Now is the time to give ourselves to our Lord, totally. The trials and tribulations we are currently witnessing will only intensify as we move closer to the end of time

Oh please not the Mahdi. Please, do two things for me. Find the Qur'anic reference to the Mahdi. You probably already know I know that you almost cetainly know there isn't any.
No one mentioned the Mahdi, only the end of time.
Second, ponder on why you are now believing in what you were brought up to believe. You come from a background with Millenialist beliefs. You have adopted a school of Islam with similar beliefs. "The world is a terrible place and will end soon. God/Allah will make it better". Do you see a pattern here? Maybe you have been drawn to a 'solution' you LIKE or are subconsciously drawn to, rather than one which is obviously 'true' in comparison to other beliefs. In Islam I have found no promise that the end will come soon, only that it will come, maybe soon, maybe a long long time from now. We must be fully engaged now in doing what is right and contributing to making the world a better place to the extent that we can, while yet being glad that this is not all there is. I was raised as a JW with isolation from almost everything and the hope that I might never have to die. I liked that a lot. Who really wants to die? When I left JWs I didn't give up that hope but pursued it through my research into the legends of the human immortals of India, China and Ireland. When I gave that up for Christianity, there was still an escape clause that Jesus made it possible that I might not have to die (if I squinted just right while reading the associated scriptures). But in Islam I had to finally give up my most cherished desire, for the Qur'an explicitly states that everyone must taste death. ("No one here here get's out alive.") Maybe I have a subconscious death wish, but I don't think so.

How much submission is here in going after your own desires? I'm not saying that to be mean, but to trigger self-analysis.I don't think you're mean at all. I am frequently trying to examine my desires, but they are often deeply hidden.

The quotation about female Imams is rife with error; just as evolutionism has nothing to do with the god existing or not, so to feminism has nothing to do with god existing or not. It very elegantly tries to turn the tables so the discussion is not about equality with men but about having value to god, but neglects the fact that many traditional Islamic ways show god does not value men and women equally; not as different equals (which is what they are), but as different in-equals. I disagree. And I do feel valued equally.

Like I say, if it's about your subconscious yearning for something clear-cut and certain that promises an end to the problems of the world, then it ain't submission to god but a form of shirk, with your own desires being the idol (even if you're not aware of it). I hope not, but I pray that if I am committing shirk it will be revealed to me more clearly. The self-examination continues...

All the best Merry, a pleasure discussing things with you. Likewise. I find your point of view very interesting, challenging and worth considering. I hope we both benefit.
~Merry
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Did you all give up on me? Sorry I haven't had time to finish up here.
LittleToe: There's a marked difference between justice and mercy, Fortunately, Allah is Merciful as well as Just. http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=44
Thank you for your fair-minded remarks, Zagor.
Hi tij! No, I haven't written any lyrics for a while. It comes and it goes. I did find a couple poems yesterday that quite touched me, though-- the last two on this page (Lam Aleph and Imagine): Mideast Youth . So, what did the Muslim boy say to ask me?



He does have a penchant for rainbows, though
'and rainbows always turn to grey'...... m. y'tara 2006Silver is just another shade of grey You peeked at my hair, didn't you!?.....................................................................................
As to the Dispatches Undercover Mosque series shown on YouTube, here is the response of the Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia London. Don't feel sorry for me! Ignorance, intolerence and bigotry are to be encountered everywhere, on both sides of the fence (among Muslims and among non-Muslims). It is part of the human condition. There are many other reasons you could feel sorry for me, but I would rather you didn't. There is no need. Feel sorry for abused and oppressed women of all religions or none everywhere in the world. I am not one of them, but I hope somehow I will be able to stand up for what is right and help them.


Bernadette:
If I were to turn to Islam then I like to think it would be the mystical Sufi, although the Whirling Dervishes are perhaps a little OTT for my tastes
Yeah your right LT ....scottish dancing is more sedate
Oh, the mental pictures...it's too much!!! Thanks for the bright spot in my day
Have a great weekend everyone!!! ~Merry
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Merry
Abaddon, I feel you missed the point about menstruation being only one of the things we are required to purify ourselves after and before we pray. Why is that the only one that bothers you? Because it has been treated with unhealthy regard by other religions? It is not viewed the same way in Islam (or isn't supposed to be; I can't speak to the attitudes of every Muslim in every culture; some of us do still hold on to non-Islamic attitudes).
I don't think I missed any point about menstration Merry. I know there are other parts of the cleaning routine for men and women, it's just Allah, in contradiction to all known medical science, thinks a menstrating women CANNOT be clean. Or do you think menstrating surgeons take a day off to avoid infecting their patients with girl cooties? Y es, I do deliberately try to make it sound ludicous; because it IS. Not Islam being ludicrous, but thinking Allah can be guilty of such silliness being ludicrous.
I was pointing out that IF religion X (say Papua New Guinea Animism) has silly supersticions about menstration, one would not think 'aha! evidence of divine guidance', even if the Papuan Animists think so. On would say 'ah, yet another exmple of women being disciminated against due to primative supersticions'.
Or do you think such supersticions in other faiths are indicative they are also in receipt of divine guidance?
You can only have it one way or the other.
Now, if you hold the Papuan Menstration taboos as being due to ignorance, why would Allah command that Muslims persist in such ignorant supesticions? Why would Allah want his people to copy people who worshiped rocks (no, not a hidden crack at that meteorite thingy) and bushes.
If you hold that such beliefs as indication of divine guidance... you have to ask why divine guidance seems to be baseless gender-predicated discrimination...?
You seem to feel the Qur'an IS reliable. Yes.
Well, we differ. Why do you feel the Qur'an is more relaible than, say the Bible? Despite the grandiose claims made about an unbroken chain of recitation from Muhammad's time to our own, you must know that Islamic scripture has gone through at least two phases of collation and editing, so the Qur'an is no more unchanged since Muhammad said it than the New Testament is since Jesus.
Other proof the Qur'an is not reliable;
◦Surah 10 says there are six cretive days. Sura 41 says 8.
◦Surah 7 says the Pharoh used crucifiction as a punishment; there is no proof of this at the time.
◦Surah 20 says a Samaritan helped build the golden calf; if so the Smaritan neede a time machine as they didn;t exist asa pople until 1,000 after MOses.
◦Surah 9 says the Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God. This is utter rubbish.
◦Surah 18 says Alexander the Great wa a Mulim and died of old age. Hahahahaha. This is so wong as to be absurd.
Rest assured there are more than enough such errors to show your confidence in the accuracy of the Qur'an is misplaced.
If you are interested we can talk about these topic (evolution and whether the Qur'an is inspired) in another thread.
Cool. I look forward to a chance to explore this topic more, whether on another thread or on my own.
I think we should. The lies of (big-C literalistic) Creationists of both Christian and Islamic persuasion make many sincere people think ANY acceptence of evoluton as rejection of god. Such an opinion is the result of a total misrepresentation of evolution by those same Creationists.
I am truly not trying judge anyone (including myself), but when I observe things with which I do not agree, I feel a call to self-reflection and I try to express the hope that others will do the same. I believe we can question motives without judging them. We are doing a lot of that on this thread, imo.
Oh true.
Our enslavement to God in turn means that we have to suppress many of our souls’ desires and inclinations. Therein lies one of the greatest secrets to unleashing our real human potential. This is so because it is our human potential that separates us from the rest of this creation, and it is to the extent that we are able to conquer our physical nature that we realize that spiritual potential.
Yes, but my point was, in part, that bland assurance one is following THE way, in the face of contraindications as I have pointed too, is in no way enslavement to god, but to oneself.

Now is the time to give ourselves to our Lord, totally. The trials and tribulations we are currently witnessing will only intensify as we move closer to the end of time.
Oh please not the Mahdi. Please, do two things for me. Find the Qur'anic reference to the Mahdi. You probably already know I know that you almost cetainly know there isn't any.
No one mentioned the Mahdi, only the end of time.
So you DON'T hold Sunni views about the Mahdi? ALthough your comments NOW show it is not neccesarilly an immediate hope, you do realise before I mentioned it, it did sound like it was very soon. Interesting (and I'd fully expect you to point out such things about me :smile:
I don't think you're mean at all. I am frequently trying to examine my desires, but they are often deeply hidden.
They might be hidden, but one can discern what they are by one's ACTIONS. Your actions have drawn you to a faith with many parrallels to that which you grew up in.
I do feel valued equally.
Maybe if you lived in Turkey or Iran, you'd feel differently. Maybe you feel valued equally because you are isolated from any Muslim community and can approach Islam as an anchorite (female hermit), interpret it in your own way, and not be forced on a daily basis to experience it as your sisters in Islam do. Prehaps your feeling of equality would be tempered if you actually had experience of dealing with 'born-in' MUslim males
I hope not, but I pray that if I am committing shirk it will be revealed to me more clearly. The self-examination continues...
Well, some religious traditions actually see shirk as impossible, as they view humans as being PART of the divine. Not that I neccesarily belive that but it is interesting.
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. As I say, I'd be delighted to give my pennies worth on Islamic Creationism and Qur'anic reliability one day.
 
jelcat8224
jelcat8224 9 years ago

Any time blood flows outside of the body the person (whether male or female) is required to perform ablution. This is not to say that when a man gets a bloody nose he is unclean, as that is not the case. It is simply a time when he must purify himself before praying or entering a house of prayer. A man cannot enter a mosque with a bloody nose any more than a woman can enter while menstruating.

I deal with many 'born-in muslim males' as well as with thier 'born-in muslim wives'. They all feel the same as Merry and I. Again, we aknowledge that women are being abused around the world but this is the case with every religion. It is not just Islam. And regardless of the reasons or the justifications that are given by any of these extreme religionists, it does not make it right, no matter which holy book these justifications percievably come from.
 
jelcat8224
jelcat8224 9 years ago

Abbadon: Here is a little more information on each of the afore mentioned contradictions in the Quran. I do not want to speak for Merry but I felt that I wanted to have more information on these topics as well.


Alexander The Great Was a Muslim and Died of Old Age:
The Quran does not specify who 'Zulquarnain' is. There is never any specific name given. Some speculate that it was Alexander but most think it ws Cyrus. The description of 'Zulquarnain' in the Quran more aptly fits Cyrus. The directions of his conquests, his belief in one God (Alexander was a polytheist but Cyrus followed Zoroaster who preached belief in one God), the fact that he was a kind and just ruler (history confirms Cyrus' extreme kindness and justice), and his dealings with the jews. In any case, these are both just speculations as, again, it was never specified in the Quran.
Jews Believe Ezra is the Son of God:
This statement was made in reference to jews in medina, not necesarily all jews. There is evidence suggesting that there were jews in medina and yemen who shared this mystical view of Ezra and believed that his being raised to life after 100 years could not have been possible unless he had been the son of God. Another point is that the jews who heard this verse recited at the time did not dispute it as they had been eager to do in other instances.
Six Days Or Eight Days of Creation?:
The Qur'an in these verses was actually saying that the basic structure of the earth was created in two (2) days. Later on, mountains, seas and other paraphernalia required for the sustenance of living organisms on this basic structure of the earth were designed and created. And all this work (including the creation of the earth and the designing and provision of the paraphernalia) was completed in a total of four (4) days. The two days of creation it took to create the earth is included in the four creative days mentioned to create the things on the earth. After this, the skies were modeled and seven heavens were created in two (2) days. Thus the total time involved in the creation of the earth and the heavens totalled to six (6) days -- not eight (8) days.
Pharoah Used Crucifixion:
Oxford Companion to the Bible defines " Crucifixion " as:Crucifixion is the act of nailing, binding or impaling a living victim or sometimes a dead person to a cross, stake or tree whether for executing the body or for exposing the corpse. New Catholic Encyclopaedia defines " Crucifixion " as: Crucifixion developed from a method of execution by which the victim was fastened to an upright stake either by impaling him on it or by tying him to it with thongs ...
The history of crucifixion is far too long for me to try to condense here. This link will take you through all the secular and historical evidence which shows that crucifixion was in practice LONG before the romans began employing it!
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/crucify.html
A Samartain Helped Build the Golden Calf:
The name shomronim that appears in II Kings 17:29 is associated with the worship of idols. However, the Samaritans do not address themselves by this name at all. They call themselves shamerin  , that is "keepers" or "observers" of the Torah. [13] The Samaritans themselves make a clear distinction between their own ancestors and the inhabitants of Samaria. Put simply, shomronim means the "inhabitants of Samaria" and it has nothing to do with shamerin, "keepers" or "observers" of the Torah, which the Samaritans use for themselves. In fact, a long line of Samaritan scholarship has already pointed out this fact. Encyclopaedia Judaica under the entry " Samaritans " says:

Little guidance is obtained from the name of the Samaritans. The Bible uses the name Shomronim once, in II Kings 17:29, but this probably means Samarians rather than Samaritans . The Samaritans themselves do not use the name at all; they have long called themselves Shamerin; i.e., "keepers" or "observers" of the truth = al ha-amet, both the short and long forms being in constant use in their chronicles. They take the name Shomronim to mean inhabitants of the town of Samaria built by Omri (cf. I Kings 16:24), where the probable origin of the word Shomronim is to be found). [17] ... T he Samaritans are the direct descendants of the Joseph tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, and until the 17th century C.E. they possessed a high priesthood descending directly from Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas .
Clearly, if the Samaritans trace their origins from the time of Joseph's descendants, then they were certainly in existence in the time of Moses. There is also the study of their genetic history, as recent studies have shown that Samaritains produce the highest inbreeding coefficient record for any population. Studies from the Y-chromosome analysis concludes that the samaritains did indeed descend from the Isrealites.
Here is the link to the rest of the artical if you would like more information on this subject.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/samaritan.html


 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Have you ever read the Insight volumes?
So now you're claiming that Cyrus may have been a Muslim, as if that's better than Alexander having been one? And are you truly confessing a belief that Zoroastrianism is a root of Islam? That should please the Sufis... Shame so many of them have lost their lives over time, though.
 
Merry Magdalene
Merry Magdalene 9 years ago

Thanks, Jelcat, for your input. Very interesting. And I appreciate your trying to make the point about blood again.
Abaddon:
I don't think I missed any point about menstration Merry. I know there are other parts of the cleaning routine for men and women, it's just Allah, in contradiction to all known medical science, thinks a menstrating women CANNOT be clean. Or do you think menstrating surgeons take a day off to avoid infecting their patients with girl cooties? Y es, I do deliberately try to make it sound ludicous; because it IS. Not Islam being ludicrous, but thinking Allah can be guilty of such silliness being ludicrous.
Honestly, there is nothing in Islam indicating that there should be any superstitious fear or disgust toward menstruation any more than any other cause of bleeding! Islam does not promote ignorant superstitions but warns people against them. Surgery is fine while menstruating, just not formal prayer, because one cannot wash for prayer after bleeding if one is continuing to bleed. Surgery has different cleanliness requirements than Salat. That is all.

I think we should. The lies of (big-C literalistic) Creationists of both Christian and Islamic persuasion make many sincere people think ANY acceptence of evoluton as rejection of god. Such an opinion is the result of a total misrepresentation of evolution by those same Creationists.
I am interested in exploring this more as it is a topic I know little about. From what I have been able to discern so far it seems to me that some creationists got drawn into a false debate against evolution due to claims made by both materialists (trying to use evolution to disprove God and creation) and other creationists (trying to do the opposite). One of Allah's names is translated "the Evolver" so I have no problem with the idea of creation through evolution. My problem is with saying that everything came from nothing or was just always here, without a Creator that exists outside time and space and beyond our comprehension. I recently was researching the entropy versus evolution debate and found that my own uninformed opinion may well have been quite mistaken on that. I am still reading.
So you DON'T hold Sunni views about the Mahdi? ALthough your comments NOW show it is not neccesarilly an immediate hope, you do realise before I mentioned it, it did sound like it was very soon. Interesting (and I'd fully expect you to point out such things about me :smile:
Sorry, I didn't intend to make it sound soon. Some Muslims do feel this way due to various "signs." I prefer to cultivate a sense of readiness that comes from not knowing when, just as I don't know when my own death will come, so it is best to do all we can right here and right now. And all I said was that no one mentioned the Mahdi in my quote, nor did I. You were reacting to something that wasn't there.

I do feel valued equally.
Maybe if you lived in Turkey or Iran, you'd feel differently. Maybe you feel valued equally because you are isolated from any Muslim community and can approach Islam as an anchorite (female hermit), interpret it in your own way, and not be forced on a daily basis to experience it as your sisters in Islam do. Prehaps your feeling of equality would be tempered if you actually had experience of dealing with 'born-in' MUslim males.
I am glad that Jelcat addressed her own experience with this as I have none of my own other than on-line. I don't recall the context of my above statement, but I don't think I meant that I feel valued equally by men (which is not of primary importance to me) but by God, as expressed through the Qur'an. I know how men can be. I grew up around males who often made a point of letting me know that females are inferior to males, and none of them were Muslims and not all of them were religious in any way. I watched with great interest a documentary by a Muslim woman called The Mosque and Me (I think) that looked into some of the male prejudice against females in mosques throughout Canada and America. She also spoke to a Muslim scholar who showed that such mens' prejudice was not supported by the Qur'an or the Sunnah and should be corrected.
Thanks for the on-going discussion. Some people don't like to debate with me IRL, thinking I want them to immediately capitulate and agree with everything I say or else shut up. I don't. How can you ever get to the meat and marrow of things that way? Best wishes for a good week.
~Merry
 
jelcat8224
jelcat8224 9 years ago

Islam teaches that all the prophets from Abraham to Moses to Jesus (PBUT) were muslim. It is not believed that Islam started with Muhammed (PBUH), since the word only means submission to one God. Muhammed (PBUH) did not bring a new Religion, just the final message of the monotheistic religion that had been followed by all faithful worshipers of God throughout history. The fact that Cyrus lived before Muhammad's time (PBUH) does not mean that he could not have been a muslim.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

jelcat

Any time blood flows outside of the body the person (whether male or female) is required to perform ablution.
So if you use tampons or those new plastic cup thingies and prevent menstral blood from leaving the body then you are clean enough to enter the mosque (albeit in a seperate secion to underline just how equal everyone is)? This is a rhetorical question, I know there is no such exception, which illustrates my entire point. The prohibition against menstrating women is NOTHING to do with uncleanliness as even if they are not suffering a bloodflow outside the body they STILL cannot enter a mosque because they are a menstrating woman.
Come on ladies. Think of how fervently JW women argue that NOT being allowed to teach, male 'headship' and having to wear a hanky on their head if they say a prayer in front of a baby boy is not discriminatory. We know how hollow that sounds. Listen to yourselves. Compare and contrast; maybe you can explain to me why your justifictions for differentiation in THIS instance are not as hollow; they sound it to me but obviously convince you.

Again, we aknowledge that women are being abused around the world but this is the case with every religion. It is not just Islam.
I am glad you acknowledge that Islam, as other religions, has practisoners who abuse women.

And regardless of the reasons or the justifications that are given by any of these extreme religionists, it does not make it right, no matter which holy book these justifications percievably come from.
So you are willing to acknowledge that in the countries or regions of countries where Sharia law holds sway (in practice) over secular law women demonstrably do suffer disadvantage over and above that of women in countries with secular legal systems?

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=28054
Re. your comments about Cyrus/Alexander; what Little Toe said - either way the Qur'an is WRONG.
Re. Samaritans, there is no trace of a seperate Samaritan community co-existing with the Jews at the time of the Exodus; indeed, if there were, they'd have been purged just as many Israelites were, as their beliefs were not orthodox. Nor is it possible that the Qur'an is referring to a Samarian, as the area known as Samaria dates to the reign of King Omri of Israel, about 870BC, hundreds of years after Moses. At the time of Moses the area would hve been occupied by one of the tribes the Israelites ethnically cleansed during the first Jewish invasion of the Levant. - either way the Qur'an is WRONG.

Another point is that the jews who heard this verse recited at the time did not dispute it as they had been eager to do in other instances.

You mean the text you trust in says the Jews did not despute it. This is like saying the Bible is accurate because it says 'all scriopture is inspired of god and beneficial'. You are using internal consistency as an argument for the Qur'an being accurate. One can say Lord of the Rings is internally consistent, but no one would ever argue it is accurate outside of its own narrative space.
Oh, and JW's have been known to claim that all the faithful men of old were Jehovah's Witnesses; Islam pactising such revisonism is not a surprise.
Merry

I am interested in exploring this more as it is a topic I know little about. From what I have been able to discern so far it seems to me that some creationists got drawn into a false debate against evolution due to claims made by both materialists (trying to use evolution to disprove God and creation)...
No materialist who knows anything worthwhile about evolutionary theory would claim evolution proved god was not possible, or that some form of creation was not possible.

One of Allah's names is translated "the Evolver" so I have no problem with the idea of creation through evolution.
Good!

My problem is with saying that everything came from nothing or was just always here, without a Creator that exists outside time and space and beyond our comprehension.
Yeah, you know that is 'special pleading'? Being a sensible person you are wary of claims about something coming from nothing or always having been there. However, this sensibleness evapourates if one talks about Allah, as you are willing to accept this is the case for Allah on the basis of an 'explanation' which is NOT an explanation ('that exists outside time and space'). It is someone SAYING it. That is not proof.
Why the double standard?

I recently was researching the entropy versus evolution debate and found that my own uninformed opinion may well have been quite mistaken on that. I am still reading.
Oh, the classic Creationist allegation that evolution is impossible due to the law of entropy? Which is derided both by evolutionits AND physicists as it is based on a willful ignorance of what the law actually is and its applicability in open and closed systems. I'm glad you have spotted it.

I am glad that Jelcat addressed her own experience with this as I have none of my own other than on-line. I don't recall the context of my above statement, but I don't think I meant that I feel valued equally by men (which is not of primary importance to me) but by God, as expressed through the Qur'an.
Oh, it is an important difference (god and men). But I remain to be convinced that god as expressed in the Qur'an really sees women as equal to men - like I say above, you guys might be convinced, but me... your explanation of how such demarkation and differentiation IS equality do not convince me.
I suppose the point I am making is that if one takes a literalistic approach towards the Qur'an as direct revealed truth, then one ends up with a societal structure where women are disadvantaged. I grew up and went to school with Muslims. I have worked with Muslims. I have taught Muslims (English) and spent time discussing topics like those we discuss hre to extend their knoweldge of English. I say what I see.

I know how men can be. I grew up around males who often made a point of letting me know that females are inferior to males, and none of them were Muslims and not all of them were religious in any way. I watched with great interest a documentary by a Muslim woman called The Mosque and Me (I think) that looked into some of the male prejudice against females in mosques throughout Canada and America. She also spoke to a Muslim scholar who showed that such mens' prejudice was not supported by the Qur'an or the Sunnah and should be corrected.
Errrr... as per previous point, that is just ONE bloke and his opinions. Want me to dig up some other Imam saying something nasty about women and using traditonal scripture of some sort to support it? Which of the two is right? They both THINK they are, they both claim their opinion are supported by scripture.

Thanks for the on-going discussion. Some people don't like to debate with me IRL, thinking I want them to immediately capitulate and agree with everything I say or else shut up. I don't. How can you ever get to the meat and marrow of things that way? Best wishes for a good week.
No worries. Capitulate isn't in my dictionary, although I can be convinced with the right evidence :wink:
 

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who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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Merry Becomes A Muslim (a bit long)
by Merry Magdalene 9 years ago 147 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw experiences
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zagor
zagor 9 years ago

Well Merry is not alone there, not by a long shot. I just came across this video. Can anyone from Scotland confirm this is really true.



 
deeskis
deeskis 9 years ago

He's been married seven times because he's addicted to wedding cake.....rofl!
can't confirm the Scottish angle, Been over here and out of the org too long. he said he was " National Overseer" and left the borg in '69, was born in skye but educated in Birmingham...........
Any other Brits know of this man Dr. J Nicholson??
 
Tras
Tras 9 years ago

So now you're claiming that Cyrus may have been a Muslim, as if that's better than Alexander having been one? And are you truly confessing a belief that Zoroastrianism is a root of Islam? That should please the Sufis... Shame so many of them have lost their lives over time, though.
Jelcant nor the Quran claim that Cyrus was a Muslim. Cyrus most closely fits the descriptin of the Qur'an, but the Qur'an never names Alexander or Cyrus. Besides, who is to say that Zoroaster was not originally a propeht? The Qur'an says there were over 100,000 Prophets, and that a prophet was sent to all nations. His teachings could have very easily have been distorted into the known Zoroastrian beliefs of today.
When a Muslim prays, they are standing before God, the five prayers are also known as the contact prayers. You can't stand before God while blood flows from your body. Using women hygienic products doesn't stop the blood from flownig, it simply absorbs the blood that does flow. I'm not trying to gross anyone out, but would any guy perform any sexual act on a woman that is menstruating? Why not if there is nothing wrong with? So you're saying it's gross for you, but it should be good for God? Don't you find this reasoning sick and twisted?
One cannot stand before God while unclean. If someone were to use the bathroom for either one or two, they must wash with water, and do ablusion again before praying. If someone passed gas while praying, he's got to do ablusion and begin prayer over again. If someone were to have an orgasm, they need to shower before prayer, if there was contact between unamarried man and woman (such as a rub, or a soft touch that was intended) they both have to do ablusion again. That's it. Beats drinking a beer and passing gas in the pick-up truck on your way to church (All Christians don't do this, and JW's never would, but down here in my little town in FL, I've seen even worse).
Basically, Mary, Jelcat and others are happy being Musims, and this board insists on attacking them. From what I've seen, they fight off arguments soundly, then the defeated arguments are quietly dropped while new ones are launched. And when you get down low enough in the thread, the dropped argument is brought back again, and the process begins all over again. SOME of you people may have been better off being witnesses, it seems you don't know what to do with all your free time other than be hateful to others simply because they choose to believe differently than you. Use your energies on something positive, there is already too much pain in this world.
Alright, now lets all go out and try and have a nice day, for all we know, it could be our last.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Tras:
The Qur'an says there were over 100,000 Prophets, and that a prophet was sent to all nations. His teachings could have very easily have been distorted into the known Zoroastrian beliefs of today.
I'll set aside your assumption that they've been "distorted" to ask why you think that God stopped using prophets nearly 1400 years ago, when He was allegedly happy to use them for thousdands of years before that?
You can't stand before God while blood flows from your body.
Why not? Didn't he invent the process?
I'm not trying to gross anyone out, but would any guy perform any sexual act on a woman that is menstruating?
Why not, if she's agreeable? Many women find that their hormone levels are such that they are highly arousable at that time. Gyles (Abaddon) has already addressed the application of ancient ideas of science and purity vs modern understanding.
Basically, Mary, Jelcat and others are happy being Musims, and this board insists on attacking them.
Attack? Have you actually read this thread? You've either led a very sheltered life or are very paranoid. Ask Merry if she feels "attacked". I think you'll find that she's already responded to that several pages back...
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Tras
You never did really respond to me pointing out your claim that stoning for adultery is a Qur'anic law is totally false.
Be that as it may;
You can't stand before God while blood flows from your body. Using women hygienic products doesn't stop the blood from flownig, it simply absorbs the blood that does flow. I'm not trying to gross anyone out, but would any guy perform any sexual act on a woman that is menstruating? Why not if there is nothing wrong with? So you're saying it's gross for you, but it should be good for God? Don't you find this reasoning sick and twisted?
Tras, wake up and smell the hemoglobin. LOADS of men do, and LOADS of women want then to. Some women are too crampy to want to, others find sex during their period a relief. Others, sadly have been raised to think their own bodies are disgusting 1/4 of the time.
Allah supposedly made the human body; does Allah regret what he has done or find what he has done unclean? No. So how could Allah punish women for something natural and non-harmful. Your slavish literalism makes a fool of Allah as you swallow down absurdities that are shameful to believe of god.
Basically, Mary, Jelcat and others are happy being Musims, and this board insists on attacking them.
Get a grip and actually stop making false claims about your own holy scriptures before you falsely accuse others of attacking Muslims. Spirirted debate about beliefs is not attacking. I've stated clearly I have no problem with someone being a Muslim.
What I am trying to understand is why a convert would choose a more traditional form of the belief.
Islam has many varients, all the way from utter scum like the Taliban to people today who are looking at Islam in the way Christianity was examined in the 18th and 19th Century. I can list different sects if you like, and you can pretend like they're not so different they aren't at war with each other in Iraq.Again.
Oh, and don't worry, I think white-power Christian churches and Fundy Christians who bomb abortion clinic are scum to.
NONE of the varieties of Islam can prove their version is right. They might claim it, but claims mean nothing when everyone makes the same one.
So why go for one that clings to vestiges of primative patriarchal pastoralist traditions pre-dating Islam? Why go for traditional forms of the beliefs that, as the evidence around the world shows, give rise to societies where women suffer disadvantage?
Tell me, do you expect your wife/ves to stop working and raise your children, keep your home? Or would you be happy with her/they continuing in her/their careers? If you disagree with your wife/ves over something, do you expect your word to be final? Will you beat your wife/ves lightly so as not to make a mark (as allowed by Islamic Scripture) if she/they won't listen to you? If your daughter is an incredibly talented athlete, say a born gymnast, or gets a scholarship to ballet school, will you stop her? Would you stop a son with the same opportunites?
I'm not attacking you. I am trying to understand how SO many things that add up to inequality can be seen as equality. Trying to see how your background influences you (just as ours does us).
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 9 years ago

altYou might considered this book .... it's a VERY interesting read:
Editorial Reviews
Book Description
In this startling new book, New York Times bestselling author Robert Spencer, provides a warts-and-all portrait of the Prophet of Islam and draws out what his life implies for reforming Islam and repulsing Islamic terrorists. Spencer relies solely on primary sources considered reliable by Muslims and evaluates modern biographies to show how Muhammad has been changed for Western audiences, lulling them into consoling but false conclusions.
From the Inside Flap
Muhammad: a frank look at his influential (and violent) life and teachings
In The Truth about Muhammad, New York Times bestselling author and Islam expert Robert Spencer offers an honest and telling portrait of the founder of Islam-perhaps the first such portrait in half a century-unbounded by fear and political correctness, unflinching, and willing to face the hard facts about Muhammad's life that continue to affect our world today.
From Muhammad's first "revelation" from Allah (which filled him with terror that he was demonpossessed) to his deathbed (from which he called down curses upon Jews and Christians), it's all here-told with extensive documentation from the sources that Muslims themselves consider most reliable about Muhammad.
Spencer details Muhammad's development from a preacher of hellfire and damnation into a political and military leader who expanded his rule by force of arms, promising his warriors luridly physical delights in Paradise if they were killed in his cause. He explains how the Qur'an's teaching on warfare against unbelievers developed-with constant war to establish the hegemony of Islamic law as the last stage.
Spencer also gives the truth about Muhammad's convenient "revelations" justifying his own licentiousness; his joy in the brutal murders of his enemies; and above all, his clear marching orders to his followers to convert non-Muslims to Islam-or force them to live as inferiors under Islamic rule.
In The Truth about Muhammad, you'll learn
- The truth about Muhammad's multiple marriages (including one to a nine-year-old) - How Muhammad set legal standards that make it virtually impossible to prove rape in Islamic countries - How Muhammad's example justifies jihad and terrorism - The real "Satanic verses" incident (not the Salman Rushdie version) that remains a scandal to Muslims - How Muhammad's faulty knowledge of Judaism and Christianity has influenced Islamic theology--and colored Muslim relations with Jews and Christians to this day.
Recognizing the true nature of Islam, Spencer argues, is essential for judging the prospects for largescale Islamic reform, the effective prosecution of the War on Terror, the democracy project in Afghanistan and Iraq, and immigration and border control to protect the United States from terrorism.
All of which makes it crucial for every citizen (and policymaker) who loves freedom to read and ponder The Truth about Muhammad.
 
Xena
Xena 9 years ago

After looking at just a few items about Mr. Spencer you can't help but wonder how biased this book might or might not be.
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 9 years ago

and this board insists on attacking them
Begging your pardon Tras, but how is asking questions "attacking"? I've seen several folks here (such as Abaddon and Little Toe) ask questions, only to be ignored. If you can provide real answer I'd be interested in listening.
 

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Topic Summary
who is merry?
i was born in 1965, the same year that malcolm x was assassinated.
my father had committed suicide a few months into my mother's pregnancy so we lived with her parents until she married again when i was about 18 months old.



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Romans 6:7
by Jerryh 2 months ago



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We're not the only ones pissed off at JW callers!
by nicolaou 14 years ago 0 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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nicolaou
nicolaou 14 years ago


This link - http://jamaat.net/comp/jw/jw.html - will lead you off into all sorts of interesting JW related discussions from a Muslim or Judaic perspective. (Check out 'FROM THE WATCHTOWER TO THE MINARET'
A story of a Jehovah's Witness who became a Muslim.)
Here's the main article:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MUSLIM GUIDE TO COUNTERING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
The greatest menace to Muslim homes in the West
by Malik Ali

As a Muslim who lives in a Western country, I have come to realise that the greatest harassment comes from a Christian sect that numbers a mere 6-7 million; the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Muslims come across them so often for the very factor that they come knocking on their doors. The group was born in the U.S.A. (Like almost every other cult you might come across) and every weekend they come armed with their contrived New World Translation Bible and their Awake, Watchtower magazines; they'll come pounding on your doors. Yes, the lady and the gentleman who come dressed in business suits. No their not trying to sell you products, but "simply" to destroy your Iman in exchange for their humorous "The world is coming to an end" cult.
Many Muslims are aware of their failed past prophecies; but it's usually your word against theirs. The purpose of this page is to expose these cultist using their own tools. The following are scanned Photostats of the past magazines of Awake and the Watchtower. Articles that these cultists dread if any one was to come across; yet over the past decades they have been handing them out door to door, country to country. The Jehovah's Witnesses view the Islamic faith as satanic, they have written anti-Islamic materials and even travel to Muslim countries to try and witness (their euphemism for convert) to our brethren. Muslims have to understand that Christianity is not a monolithic rock, it comprises of innumerable sects that differ on almost every theological aspect of the Christian faith, and to defend yourselves against it you have to understand the nature of these offspring's. it is pointless arguing with a Jehovah's Witness that the Bible says this and says that. Trying to bring up contradictions, the humanity of Jesus (incidentally, they don't believe Jesus is God, but still acknowledge his divine sonship), etc. Their faith seems to belong in a man made organisation, the Watchtower in New York. They'll vehemently deny this; but ask them where all their magazines, Bibles, commentries, religious books and guides are printed. Their are many former Jehovah's Witnesses that have entered the fold of Islam (ironically, it starts from them having visited a Muslim home in order to witness). Although many are trained not to listen, you as a believer can only do your best, and leave the rest to Allah (swt). This page is meant mainly as a defense for Muslims, and not necessarily Dawah to them.
I recommend for Muslims who regularly come into contact with Jehovah's Witnesses, to print out the scanned Photostat articles following from the links below. Trust me, once you've shown them this. They'll give you a pathetic defense and stand their pretending their shocked, and most of them will never come to your houses again. It's difficult for someone to swallow their own past failures that now go against their dogma.
STEP BY STEP, WE BEGIN
STEP 1.
The book of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 sets a standard on how to judge if a Prophet is from God.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Well, it's simple. This is a criteria that Muslims can also agree to, if a Prophet is from God, any Prophecy he makes should eventuate as claimed. This would be the sole ultimate proof of the Prophets genuineness. If the prophecies don't come to pass, then the so-called Prophet is a false Prophet. And hence he is not being guided by God at all, we shall not be afraid (respect) of them, let alone of what they teach. As you'll see, the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters (the Watchtower in Brooklyn, New York) claims to be a body of Prophets as those sent to the peoples of the Biblical era.
STEP 2.
WHO GUIDES THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY?
Just in case they tell you they've always relied on human wisdom (or lack of it). You must show them that the Watchtower claims to be a Prophet of Jehovah (God). If they don't acknowledge it, then it is really pointless exposing to them the failed prophecy articles coming up. But they usually will confirm that the Watchtower organisation is indeed "inspired and guided" by God almighty.
WHAT DO THE WATCHTOWER MAGAZINES GLEAM WITH?
"the scriptural and prophetic truths"
STEP 3.
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO HUMANITY IN 1918?
Take one big guess
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO HUMANITY IN 1925
AND WHICH PROPHETS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE RESURRECTED?
Oops, I think our calculations were wrong
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN 1975?
And it wasn't Muhammad Ali's boxing victory against Joe Frazier
STEP 4.
LETTING THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG? Who makes false prophecies?

You can now see the false nature of the Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the criteria set by God to Moses, the Jehovah's Witnesses are a false body. Not withstanding the religious factor, on a legal and material basis, they have duped thousands into doing ludicrous things prior to these expected prophecies; such as selling their property and cars at ridiculous cheap rates. After all, your not going to need your BMW, Benz and mansion in the hereafter.

THEIR BIBLE
But there's more, the same organisation that claims God guides and the Holy Spirit inspires their Awake and Watchtower
magazines. Published an article in 1957, entitled "50 000 Errors in the Bible" . Print the 2 pages out. Let the Jehovah's Witness read it, and their initial shock will subside and they'll most likely say (once the Holy Ghost has "inspired" him or her) "The article says most of the 50 000 errors have been corrected" (in their New World Translation.) Indeed that is what the article reads, but wait!
Ask them "If most of the errors have been corrected, how many remain; 5 000, 500, 50. Or even if 50 errors remained. Would you attribute those 50 errors to God"
They'll look shocked, scanning their eyes through the article. After some weak ums and buts, they'll usually come to two points in the end.
This is what you can likely expect; they'll ask you if they can take the article or the publication date in order to go to their
past archives and verify if its genuine. Be generous, and allow them to do so.
The next thing they'll say is that they will come with a senior member of their Kingdom Hall (Church) to discuss this issue. In other words they won't come again. And if you had given them the extract, without question they will not come again, (Probably thinking that it's the only copy you have). In all my encounters with them, they have never come back. Maybe you could be lucky..
For some reason, it's like they're programmed to come up with the same responses and postures. That's why I've found them to be very predictable; and you'll most likely too.

THE NAME JEHOVAH
In regards to the Name Jehovah, you can read Sheikh Ahmed Deedats book What is his name?. In the chapter under the heading Who is Jehovah?.
An excellent essay I have come across is by Gerald Sigal,
THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY AND THE NAME OF GOD located at the Jews for Judaism site.
Yep, you're not alone, even our cousins are wary of these cultists. Another great essay by the same author has written THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES?
The thesis is about how Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to cover up their failed prophecies.
Both the essays above are brief and is a must read.
I have written up a page giving the names of Jehovah in many languages of the world. You'll be shocked, no the English speaking cultists have not settled for one name. They've allowed many nations and cultures around the world to distort the supposed name of God into various stylish names. Get this, the Japanese Jehovah's Witnesses pronounce the "divine name" as Ehoba. Well I guess the cult can claim to cater for all cultural tastes. Despite the fact that the Semitic peoples (Jews and Arabs) have always placed an emphasis on correct vocal pronunciation of any name or concept; especially the name of God Almighty.

STORIES OF CONVERTS
FROM THE WATCHTOWER TO THE MINARET
A story of a Jehovah's Witness who became a Muslim. Out of all the conversion stories I've ever read, this one has to be the most humorous of all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nic'
http://www.do-not-call.org
 

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Unbaptized minor children of JWs are *NOT* JWs, right?
by Scully 9 years ago 12 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower medical
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Scully
Scully 9 years ago

The recent news articles about JWs giving birth to premature twins in Quebec last week and premature sextuplets in BC back in January 2007, it occurred to me that these children ARE NOT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. The PARENTS ARE.
The parents, as JWs, do not believe in infant baptism such as practiced by the Catholic Church or any other church. There are no naming ceremonies as is commonplace in Jewish tradition that welcome a newborn into the culture and into the spiritual family. The WTS makes it quite clear that children cannot become members, they can only accompany their JW parents as they practice their beliefs and carry out the form of worship of their own choosing. See also: http://www.ajwrb.org/bulgaria/report.shtml
The book Family Care and Medical Management for Jehovah's Witnesses also makes a very interesting distinction in the Ethics/Legal section (p 3 of that section) which features the following text as its header, in large bold lettering:

WHEN PHYSICIANS APPEAL TO SOCIAL SERVICES AND JUDGES FOR ORDERS TO TRANSFUSE CHILDREN OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
That's right: the WTS, by this wording, reveals that it does not consider unbaptized minor "children of Jehovah's Witnesses" to actually be Jehovah's Witnesses. So why on earth shouldn't these children have the RIGHT to grow up and make up their own minds as to whether they want to be Jehovah's Witnesses, rather than have a belief system imposed upon them when they cannot even speak or formulate an opinion on the matter one way or the other?
This is actually quite an interesting semantic fluke that the WTS has made here. This wording, oddly enough, is in harmony with the atheist convictions of Richard Dawkins, who wrote in The God Delusion:

I do not deny that humanity's powerful tendencies towards in-group loyalties and out-group hostilities would exist even in the absence of religion. Fans of rival football teams are an example of the phenomenon writ small. Even football supporters sometimes divide along religious lines, as in the case of Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic. Languages (as in Belgium), races and tribes (especially in Africa) can be important divisive tokens. But religion amplifies and exacerbates the damage in at least three ways:
◦Labelling of children. Children are described as 'Catholic children' or 'Protestant children' etc. from an early age, and certainly far too early for them to have made up their own minds on what they think about religion (I return to this abuse of childhood in Chapter 9).
~ The God Delusion, pages 260 and 261
He further writes:

Our society, including the non-religious sector, has accepted the preposterous idea that it is normal and right to indoctrinate tiny children in the religion of their parents, and to slap religious labels on them - 'Catholic child', 'Protestant child', 'Jewish child', 'Muslim child', etc. -- although no other comparable labels: no conservative children, no liberal children, no Republican children, no Democrat children. Please, please raise your consciousness about this, and raise the roof whenever you hear it happening. A child is not a Christian child, not a Muslim child, but a child of Christian parents or a child of Muslim parents. The latter nomenclature, by the way, would be an excellent piece of consciousness-raising for the children themselves. A child who is told she is a 'child of Muslim parents' will immediately realize that religion is something for her to choose - or reject - when she becomes old enough to do so.
~ The God Delusion, pages 339 and 340
 
carla
carla 9 years ago

Excellent point!! My jw uses that everytime I bring up a pedophile case, 'are you sure they were jw's?' 'are they baptized and in good standing?' Then I remind him that to the rest of the world they don't give a rats ass if they are baptized or in good standing, if they go to a kh on a regular basis they ARE a jw. (speaking about adults free to choose if they go or not)
 
Scully
Scully 9 years ago

I guess what I'd like to see as a result of this is an argument brought before the court to the effect that the WTS does not recognize these children as JWs, therefore they should not have medical treatments (or refusal of medical treatments) imposed upon them as though they were JWs.
Remember, these are the WTS's own words, from one of their own publications which has a target audience of judges, lawyers, physiciansand hospital adminstrators. These children are "children of Jehovah's Witnesses", not "Jehovah's Witnesses", not "Jehovah's Witness children", according to their own published documents. These children do not have parents advocating on behalf of their LIVES. They have parents who are advocating to advance their own religious beliefs and impose them on these children.
It is up to judges, lawyers, physicians, nurses, social workers and hospital administrators to put the children's lives FIRST, which is what the parents ought to be doing in the first place.
 
compound complex
compound complex 9 years ago

Greetings, Scully!
Regarding our past discussion on 'children are not members,' my simple question is the following: Was the Society's above declaration about children of Bulgarian JW parents a matter of expediency and religious compromise, intended only as a means to curry favor with the Bulgarian government? And that question leading into what I feel should be logically asked next: This cannot possibly apply in western countries where it is so clear that mature-minor witnesses [baptised frequently before puberty] actually ARE viewed as bona fide members, free to make medical decisions on their own behalf?
 Is this just another example of the Society talking on both sides of the mouth? I need a refresher course on this matter! I'm sorry for not connecting all the dots on my own.........................
Many thanks!
CoCo
 
compound complex
compound complex 9 years ago

Dear Scully,
I reread your posts and got the answer to my question. I should have read more carefully the first time. Sorry for the bother!
Have a happy holiday,
CoCo
 
Scully
Scully 9 years ago

Hello CoCo!
No worries.... I certainly understand the dilemma that arises when a young child (as young as 5 or 6 years of age) submits to baptism and "becomes" one of Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I suggest that this practice of allowing young children to be baptized as JWs be stopped in its entirety. Certainly these kids cannot legally enter a contract, they cannot legally join the military, get married, drive a car, open a bank account, get a job, etc, etc. The government recognizes that it would be entirely inappropriate to allow those things. What they don't yet comprehend is that once someone is baptized as a JW - even if they are a minor child without the proper understanding of everything that is entailed in so doing - they cannot simply undo it without severe repercussions. This is where the baptism of minors is extremely dangerous.
Just my
 
jgnat
jgnat 9 years ago

An unbaptized person is not at risk of eternal death for accepting a blood transfusion. How can they obey a command if they have not sworn alleigance to the commander? Besides, children are not of the age of reason and are protected by their parent's faith until they are.
Besides, as you point out Scully, they may choose an entirely different system of beliefs as an adult.
Justice requires that children be given every chance to make that choice for themselves....when they are adults.
 
Manjana
Manjana 9 years ago

This is exactly what I have been "screaming" about in a danish web-page. The childreen who died, because of their JW-parents dicission, not to give them blood, did'nt never get the chance to choose for them selfes. Maybe they wanted to be an atteist or catholic or something else, when they grew up.
It's so unfair, that they never got that choice.
There are nothing good at all, being a child of JW. Sitting still for hours at the Kingdom hall, be different at school, no hollidays celebrating, and so can we go on.
Lets get that tower closed.
I get so angry, when I think of this. When I was a litle girl, I suffered a lot, because I could not go to birthdays partys. So much that I stole money from my mother, so I could give a present, and lied to both my parents so I could go there and celebrate the party. I told them that we only were going to play.
Many childreen suffers in the same way. No joy. I remember that there was a time, where you could celebrate you baptism, and recieve presents, but that was also forbidden. Because you must not feel proud of you self, only humaliation. Like a litle grey mouse.
And I think, that celebrating a birthday only is a tribute to God, because he is the reason that you were born. When you celebrate birthday, you show God how gratefull you are for live. And I as a mother, shows how gratefull I am for my childreen.
JW has closed every dor to joy and happyness, for the childreen, the youth, and the grown ups.
Lets all do what we can, to open those dors again.
Manjana
 
Stealth453
Stealth453 9 years ago

They are when it suits the watchliar's press machine.
 
hawkaw
hawkaw 9 years ago

This is part of the argument as well as other issues that are brought before the Court by the Crown.
The key is the minor is not old or mature enough to make their own INFORMED decision and thus, the State of Province need to step in from time to time to protect the child or minor.
I urge you to read the Supreme's decision on this subject some years ago.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 9 years ago

How Blood Can Save Your Life - 1990 p 21
Perhaps you have read of cases in which some parent brutalised a child or or denied it all medical care. How tragic! Clearly the State can and should step in to protect a neglected child. Still it is easy to see how very different it is when a caring parent requests high quality non blood medical therapy.
So they recognize that a parent does not have the right to follow other religious beliefs and deny all medical care - that would be "neglect" and the State should over rule them. Parents rights or not.... But their own restrictions, which in any particular case my be just as lethal are "different"
How come!
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 9 years ago

I think it all boils down to THEOCRATIC PROPERTY RIGHTS.
Children are the property of the father, just as their mother is (assuming marriage), just as the dog and goat in the yard it (marriage not necessary), just as the beanbag chair is (possession implies ownership).
For my money, beanbag chairs are more comfortable to sit on than children.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

Though I agree in principle, certainly parents have to make all sorts of medical decisions for his/her children thoughout the years prior to the age of majority.
Though I cannot agree with the Jw position on blood any longer - I don't see how parental rights can be revoked in general. The answer is in specific. Virtually any court in the civilised world will enforce a court ordered transfusion to children. The best way is to find ways to get the courts involved sooner. Once the child is grown, he/she will decide for himself. Until then, nature dictates the way it happens methinks.
Jeff
 

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Why I left Islam
by Elsewhere 10 years ago 9 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Elsewhere
Elsewhere 10 years ago

Many people are fearful of Islam because of reports that it is the fastest growing religion in the world. The reality of the matter is that this statement is greatly debated and there is no solid data either way.
Just as we left the destructive Watchtower Society cult, there are many who are leaving Islam. Their testimonials make for very interesting reading.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm

Here is a sample:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Bewildered.htm
Testimony from Bewildered2006/05/17 Dear Ali Sina, I don't know if you will end up posting my opinion on this forum due to my ethnic origin, but I will still write to you. I don't know whether to love you or hate you; on the one hand you've confirmed all my feelings, attitudes, and suspicions about my own religion. On the other hand I have been losing a lot of sleep and dazing off a lot. Withdrawal is not easy and that is what's happening to me. I was born in a Muslim family; we are considered moderate, laid back Muslims. I had many things that happened in my life that have caused me to question my faith, but I would choose what I thought was right, and moral based on my humanistic side. As a little girl, I questioned many issues in regards to my faith, it was my mother who I idolized and believed almost every word that came out of her mouth (I even believed that there was no such thing as sex! LOL! Simply because when I approached her she said the girls talking about it during recess were liars. By the way I was around 8yrs old when that happened. I can only say that innocence and ignorance are bliss for children, and I was one of them. Anyway, while growing up in the USA , I was living a normal life, going to school, playing with friends, etc. But my mother was always unhappy due to marital issues. I did not know what was going on at the time and continued in my childhood ways. Close to that time, my father decided to go back to our country of origin. I grew up part of my life in the states and partly in the West Bank . Now, I don't know if your going to discriminate against me because of that, but, I really need to let you and others know about my story, since I hear a lot of negative comments about Palestinians on this forum, and that's who I am I can't change it. I had a wonderful time growing up there, up until the first uprising or Intifadah. I went to a Christian private school and had both Christian and Muslim friends. The school I went to was American, so we had an American education, and were split up once a week for religion class. Muslims were taught Islam and Christians, Christianity. I thought that was good, but having a religious mother, she complained about having religion class once a week. My mother decided to cover her hair when we went back, even though Palestinians at the time were not too "religious". Many young women did not cover, and no one bothered them, but as usual you had to follow what your fathers and brothers said. I thought my mom was beautiful before and after she covered, she had long straight dark hair and had light complexion with features prettier than models in the latest fashion magazines. Even till this day we show her old pictures of her in the states and she says "Allah has guided me to the right path" (by covering up is what she means for people who are not accustomed to hearing this phrase). My mom also became a devout Muslim. She hardly listened to music, and constantly listened to sermons on tv and radio. She would invite me to listen and I did sometimes. I don't remember the parts about killing or any of that violence, the issues that were really focused on were following the five pillars, and wearing hijab. When I was around 14 years, hell broke loose in Palestine and the first uprising happened. Now, that I will never forget because being Palestinian in an Israeli state meant that you were second hand citizen. I am not saying this because I hate Jews, but because I seen it first hand. The first uprising happened because the Palestinians revolted against an unjust and inhumane killing of several Palestinian workers waiting for transportation home to the West Bank. These men were simply waiting for a ride home when several Israeli soldiers decided to literally blow their brains out, just for fun. You know that we are considered less than human in their eyes, therefore killing us is justified in their belief. The men who were killed were unarmed civilians, and I want you to keep it in mind, since I have read many negative things about my people. Teenagers and young people took out to the streets to demonstrate the brutality of the incident and of the Israeli occupation. It is not a walk in the park to be discriminated against, humiliated, and to live in fear. This is how we lived being Palestinian, the only difference, of shall say preferential treatment we got was when we showed our American passport. Now what do you call that? I am not writing to tell you that I support the suicide killings that go on there, but when people are in a constant state of mind trying to survive in an extremely terrified state; their psychological state is not good or stable. So who comes in preying on their vulnerable state of mind,... you guessed it, the radicals. The argument here is that they, the Israelis are killing us with sophisticated weapons and we only have stones and man made bombs, and people who are willing to die for the cause of freedom. I know that you understand how it feels to walk down a street and not know whether you will get shot or kiddnapped, but that is how I and many young people felt while we were just trying to get a decent education, and by the way, we missed out on many school days because the Israelis imposed curfews on us and beat our students senselessly in the streets. The Israelis have a great democracy indeed, but only if you are Jewish. So please don't tell me that the Israelis are all innocent. Did you know that radical Jews call for the expulsion and mass killing of all Arabs and Muslims? What do you think of that? This to you Ali Sina may not be important, but we all as human beings deserve to have rights. All I'm trying to let you know is that don't say that the Israelis are completely innocent. There are good and bad people everywhere you go.
Enough of politics and on with the religion part. By now you may not want to read on any more since you found out my place of origin, even though I am very proud to be American. My mother used to lecture me about being a good Muslim girl and covering my hair. I was shocked when she yelled at me for not covering my hair, just out of the nowhere. The thing that shocked me was that I was already planning on doing that without the yelling, just when I was a little bit older, say 15 years. Well it did not take me long to put it on after that incident because my Mom was my idol, my god, but I did not know at the time because being a real Muslim you should submit only to God and not idolize any one but Him. I was delusionally happy doing the hijab thing because I was following what God commanded me to do. My friends asked me if my father forced me to wear it and it upset me every time someone did because he did not. I was close to 16 years when my dad was not permitted entrance back to the West Bank because he was American. Being Palestinian is the reason why he was not allowed back. "It is not your country," when in fact he was born in Jerusalem and he paid a lot of money to try getting the Israeli citizenship, but always was denied by the Israeli authorities. My father is not a man to resort to violence in any way against the Israelis and my grandfather always hopes for peace one day in the region. When this happened, we went back to the states, the only place right now I feel at home, since I was devastated as a teenager to be kicked out of my beloved Palestine. I was enrolled in an all girls school, which I was grateful was Islamic because I had hijab on and did not want to be made fun of in a public school. Prejudice and acts of violence by Americans, yes, Americans during the first Gulf war, and Arab students were the targets in the public schools in this major city we lived in. We heard everything from racial slurs to "go back to your country you fudging Arabs" to women with hijab on getting attacked. This filled my heart with fear and made me angry at these acts of violence in a country where rights are supposed to be protected and religious freedom is permitted. While getting my high school education at this Islamic school, we were never taught that killing was right and all the sorts of violence you brought up, except for the usual historical battles that the prophet fought against the kuffar, the teachers mainly enforced the concept of modesty and covering, which I many times got fed up with but followed because I wanted to please God. I got married to my fiancé at the time, straight out of high school; he was a couple of years older than me and had a business degree. I came from a big family and wanted to be on my own too soon. The good part was that I was in love with the man, if that is what you call it because now I feel that I was not prepared for the responsibilities of marriage at such a young age. He was not a good Muslim because he did not pray five times a day and that I was taught is the back bone to being Muslim. I started to question a lot of things about my faith, yet my belief in God was strong. I did not like my hijab. I got lots of compliments on how beautiful my face was almost all the time. I even had non-Muslim guys ask me out, but I would just laugh about it and tell them I was married. I voiced my disapproval of hijab to my mother many times, and she would tell me that life is a test and that Muslims are not on this earth to be happy. On the contrary, we should be miserable because hell is a reality, and we are sinners and should watch our every action in order to please God. This notion saddened me many times, if not on a daily basis. I did not want to wear my hijab and I had many issues with hadiths which sickened me to my stomach, so I put the hadith books away never to look at them again. Now, I still had the Quran, which is the "truth", so I would read it, and when there were parts about cutting people's hands off and other acts of violence, I would think of them as non-standard for our times but acceptable back then. I still think rapists and murderers should be killed, but not without a trial. As the years went by, my questioning of my faith and its teachings grew more intense, and I fell into a depression, finally I took off my head scarf and knew that my good Muslimah image was shattered because that is the only reason why I kept it on. Yes people, I did not want to face criticism from loved ones, as well as other Muslims I'd known. I knew how harsh they were when judging women who did that. I finally came to the conclusion that I don't need to impress anyone but myself, and that you don't need a head scarf to be a good Muslim. My depression intensified after I took it off and I needed to see a psychiatrist, but I could not tell her why I felt the way I did because I did not want the image of Islam to be tarnished. I did not go back to her. That was very naive of me. If I did the same thing as you did Ali Sina, I would have seen the truth. Your long version of your story about being Muslim made me relate tremendously to you. That ideal Islam was all that I was aiming for. Many people I met when I was in college as well as professors were impressed and charmed by my attitude and "stylish" clothing even though I had a scarf on my head. I voiced my opinions openly, when the stereotype was that Muslim women are not to be heard or speak. I was proud of myself for being verbally expressive, but at the same time I was eating myself up inside because I did not believe in what I was wearing over my quite attractive hair. I truly believe in being a good person and doing to others as you would like done to yourself. This is one of the teachings we are taught to do as Muslims, but I see nothing but hypocricy from us to each other. I also found out that non-Muslims do the same thing, example-back biting, and I concluded it is human nature to be like that. The first time I heard that Muhammed married a nine year old girl when he was an old man, I questioned that, I asked my mom-idol, and she said that the prophet is like no other man and that he could do that because he was different, "special". This was when I was a little girl, my young mind still could not accept it, but because the prophet is the prophet, you just nod your head, since you will get criticized if you question his actions. You are only taught about his kindness to people, in particular women. But when I questioned why we had to be so obedient to men, I would get different answers. -You only should be obedient when he is asking you for something that God asked you to do. For Example- there's a hadeeth that says if a woman withholds sex from her husband that the angels will curse her until morning. This hadeeth enraged me! I would call my mom and tell her that it is definitely a fake hadeeth because the prophet would never say such a thing. My mom would dismiss my feelings and ask for forgiveness for me, which made me even angrier. I was outright enraged when I went to one of the Friday sermons and heard the imam talk about this sort of non-sense. I called him all sorts of names and my friends said that he was not that bad. What a stupid excuse! I do not believe these are the teachings of God! Several days ago I was just searching online, since I am always trying to find answers, and I ran across your website. I read your story and I was touched. I even cried, all the symptoms of withdrawal from Islam are showing up in me. I feel numb and yet at times I don't know what to do. I have a son, and his name is Jihad, I don't even know if I want you to post this piece of information about me, because it is so sensitive to me. I named him simply because I thought the name was strong, "striving to do what is right and not doing what's wrong". I was taught that when I was growing up. It did not mean violence to me, not at all. Keep in mind I had my son as a teenager, and did not think the name out enough, but was convinced that this should be my baby's name. My son likes his name, I ask him if he would like to change it, and he refuses. I don't know what to do. I don't want to follow the wrong teachings of Islam, but I have not told anyone about this except to you. This could kill my dear mom and dad. I am their oldest child, their pride and joy. They tell me how proud they are of me. That brings me joy, so I will not let them know. If you ask me to let them know I can not do that because I will not crush them. I will simply lead a secular life, and not raise my children according to the teachings I was taught as a moderate Muslim. To be honest with you I don't know how that is going to go along, but I will take it one step at a time. I can go on and on about many things that I want to talk to you about, but in conclusion, I want to thank you and the others for taking me out of the illusion of Islam that I was living. Bewildered See Ali Sina's comments  (Caution: Graphic Violent Photos)
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

Thank you, Elsewhere. Just as the word Christian can be very misunderstood, so can the Word Islam or Muslim. There are extremists in both religions. We do ourselves and many other people a huge favor when we learn all we can about something, from accurate sources.
 
Dansk
Dansk 10 years ago

Sounds like JWism. Religion can be a straight-jacket on freedom!
finally I took off my head scarf and knew that my good Muslimah image was shattered because that is the only reason why I kept it on.
A few weeks ago Claire and I were in our car and we passed an all-girl Muslim school. All the girls looked the same in their long dresses and head scarfs. Obviously the school is a religious school. In my country, the UK, the government is now, it says, determined to make integration work (i.e. it admits thus far integration has failed) but, looking at all those girls dressed as they were I wondered how on earth we can be integrated.
At college I had many Muslim friends. Looking back, I realise none of them were women! If Muslims keep to their areas and go only to Islamic schools how on earth can we be integrated?
I've taught my children not to be racist - but they tell me they don't mix with Muslims because Muslims don't mix with them, i.e. they don't really know any because the Muslims keep to themselves.
The Muslim friends I had at college were great - but none of us has kept in touch since we left. It was far easier to make friends with Sikhs and Hindus because they gladly integrated. In my experience religious schools are wrong and the only way we will ever become integrated is if our children are allowed to study and play together from primary school upwards. The Pakistani Muslims, on the whole, tend to live in down-market areas. They are not, on the whole, as well educated as westerners or those who have embraced the west. Unless their children break out of this cycle and are able to move to more affluent areas, again, I can't see integration working.
I hope my government's present initiative works - but I really can't see where true integration is going to occur with Muslims (in the main, Pakistani Muslims) unless they truly allow themselves to mix freely with my countrymen and throw off some of their restrictive religious practices. Those Muslims that have been able to do this seem to be thriving.
Ian
 
Soledad
Soledad 10 years ago

thanks for posting that it was a great read.
 
Mysterious
Mysterious 10 years ago

I suspect I will be learning a lot more about that since I am taking sex, gender and society in school this year which includes an entire section on iran's changing gender relations.
 
yaddayadda
yaddayadda 10 years ago

So wot's the point? There are many people leaving atheism and agnoticism all the time too and becoming Christians, etc.
 
MegaDude
MegaDude 10 years ago

I have a son, and his name is Jihad
ack! poor kid!
 
Carmel
Carmel 10 years ago

We blythly accept this girl's sincere account thinking she is describing a true representation of Islam, when in fact there is no absolute teaching in the Koran that requires women to cover themselves. This is a human invention outside of Muhammed's laws as iterated in the Quran. She was caught up in a male chauvenist imposition on Muslim women that follow it without verifying its authenticity. The first woman to remove her veil and challenge the conscription of the clerics was strangled to death for her actions defying the mullahs.
carmel
 
V
V 10 years ago

The first woman to remove her veil and challenge the conscription of the clerics was strangled to death for her actions defying the mullahs.
Carmel, what point are you trying to prove?
 
badboy
badboy 10 years ago

SOME SIMPLY FOLLOW TRADITIONS!
 

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A Muslim guide to countering Jehover's Witnesses
by Elsewhere 12 years ago 5 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Elsewhere
Elsewhere 12 years ago

http://jamaat.net/comp/jw/jw.html
A MUSLIM GUIDE TO COUNTERING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES The greatest menace to Muslim homes in the West
by Malik Ali


As a Muslim who lives in a Western country, I have come to realise that the greatest harassment comes from a Christian sect that numbers a mere 6-7 million; the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Muslims come across them so often for the very factor that they come knocking on their doors. The group was born in the U.S.A. (Like almost every other cult you might come across) and every weekend they come armed with their contrived New World Translation Bible and their Awake, Watchtower magazines; they'll come pounding on your doors. Yes, the lady and the gentleman who come dressed in business suits. No their not trying to sell you products, but "simply" to destroy your Iman in exchange for their humorous "The world is coming to an end" cult.
Many Muslims are aware of their failed past prophecies; but it's usually your word against theirs. The purpose of this page is to expose these cultist using their own tools. The following are scanned Photostats of the past magazines of Awake and the Watchtower. Articles that these cultists dread if any one was to come across; yet over the past decades they have been handing them out door to door, country to country. The Jehovah's Witnesses view the Islamic faith as satanic, they have written anti-Islamic materials and even travel to Muslim countries to try and witness (their euphemism for convert) to our brethren. Muslims have to understand that Christianity is not a monolithic rock, it comprises of innumerable sects that differ on almost every theological aspect of the Christian faith, and to defend yourselves against it you have to understand the nature of these offspring's. it is pointless arguing with a Jehovah's Witness that the Bible says this and says that. Trying to bring up contradictions, the humanity of Jesus (incidentally, they don't believe Jesus is God, but still acknowledge his divine sonship), etc. Their faith seems to belong in a man made organisation, the Watchtower in New York. They'll vehemently deny this; but ask them where all their magazines, Bibles, commentries, religious books and guides are printed. Their are many former Jehovah's Witnesses that have entered the fold of Islam (ironically, it starts from them having visited a Muslim home in order to witness). Although many are trained not to listen, you as a believer can only do your best, and leave the rest to Allah (swt). This page is meant mainly as a defense for Muslims, and not necessarily Dawah to them.
I recommend for Muslims who regularly come into contact with Jehovah's Witnesses, to print out the scanned Photostat articles following from the links below. Trust me, once you've shown them this. They'll give you a pathetic defense and stand their pretending their shocked, and most of them will never come to your houses again. It's difficult for someone to swallow their own past failures that now go against their dogma.
STEP BY STEP, WE BEGIN
STEP 1.The book of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 sets a standard on how to judge if a Prophet is from God.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Well, it's simple. This is a criteria that Muslims can also agree to, if a Prophet is from God, any Prophecy he makes should eventuate as claimed. This would be the sole ultimate proof of the Prophets genuineness. If the prophecies don't come to pass, then the so-called Prophet is a false Prophet. And hence he is not being guided by God at all, we shall not be afraid (respect) of them, let alone of what they teach. As you'll see, the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters (the Watchtower in Brooklyn, New York) claims to be a body of Prophets as those sent to the peoples of the Biblical era.
STEP 2.
WHO GUIDES THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY? Just incase they tell you they've always relied on human wisdom (or lack of it). You must show them that the Watchtower claims to be a Prophet of Jehovah (God). If they don't acknowledge it, then it is really pointless exposing to them the failed prophecy articles coming up. But they usually will confirm that the Watchtower organisation is indeed "inspired and guided" by God almighty.
WHAT DO THE WATCHTOWER MAGAZINES GLEAM WITH? "the scriptural and prophetic truths"
STEP 3.
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO HUMANITY IN 1918? Take one big guess
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO HUMANITY IN 1925
AND WHICH PROPHETS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE RESURRECTED? Oops, I think our calculations were wrong
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN 1975? and it wasn't Muhammad Ali's boxing victory against Joe Frazier
STEP 4.
LETTING THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG? Who makes false prophecies?

You can now see the false nature of the Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the criteria set by God to Moses, the Jehovah's Witnesses are a false body. Not withstanding the religious factor, on a legal and material basis, they have duped thousands into doing ludicrous things prior to these expected prophecies; such as selling their property and cars at ridiculous cheap rates. After all, your not going to need your BMW, Benz and mansion in the hereafter.

THEIR BIBLE
But there's more, the same organisation that claims God guides and the Holy Spirit inspires their Awake and Watchtower magazines. Published an article in 1957, entitled "50 000 Errors in the Bible" . Print the 2 pages out. Let the Jehovah's Witness read it, and their initial shock will subside and they'll most likely say (once the Holy Ghost has "inspired" him or her) "The article says most of the 50 000 errors have been corrected" (in their New World Translation.) Indeed that is what the article reads, but wait!
Ask them "If most of the errors have been corrected, how many remain; 5 000, 500, 50. Or even if 50 errors remained. Would you attribute those 50 errors to God"They'll look shocked, scanning their eyes through the article. After some weak ums and buts, they'll usually come to two points in the end.
This is what you can likely expect; they'll ask you if they can take the article or the publication date in order to go to their
past archives and verify if its genuine. Be generous, and allow them to do so.
The next thing they'll say is that they will come with a senior member of their Kingdom Hall (Church) to discuss this issue. In other words they won't come again. And if you had given them the extract, without question they will not come again, (Probably thinking that it's the only copy you have). In all my encounters with them, they have never come back. Maybe you could be lucky..
For some reason, it's like they're programmed to come up with the same responses and postures. That's why I've found them to be very predictable; and you'll most likely too.

THE NAME JEHOVAH
In regards to the Name Jehovah, you can read Sheikh Ahmed Deedats book What is his name?. In the chapter under the heading Who is Jehovah?. An excellent essay I have come across is by Gerald Sigal,
THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY AND THE NAME OF GOD located at the Jews for Judaism site. Yep, you're not alone, even our cousins are wary of these cultists. Another great essay by the same author has written
THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES? The thesis is about how Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to cover up their failed prophecies.
Both the essays above are brief and is a must read.
I have written up a page giving the names of Jehovah in many languages of the world. You'll be shocked, no the English speaking cultists have not settled for one name. They've allowed many nations and cultures around the world to distort the supposed name of God into various stylish names. Get this, the Japanese Jehovah's Witnesses pronounce the "divine name" as Ehoba. Well I guess the cult can claim to cater for all cultural tastes. Despite the fact that the Semitic peoples (Jews and Arabs) have always placed an emphasis on correct vocal pronunciation of any name or concept; especially the name of God Almighty.

STORIES OF CONVERTS
FROM THE WATCHTOWER TO THE MINARETA story of a Jehovah's Witness who became a Muslim. Out of all the conversion stories I've ever read, this one has to be the most humorous of all.
BACK TO THE COMPOSITIONS PAGE
WWW.JAMAAT.NET
 
Badger
Badger 12 years ago

Nice to see that Islam has thier own answer to "Reasoning From the Scriptures"
I hated using that book...when I ran across a muslim in service, I just listened.
 
webnomad
webnomad 12 years ago

What book is that?
 
Badger
Badger 12 years ago

Reasoning from the scriptures.
 
RunningMan
RunningMan 12 years ago

Even though this is aimed primarily at a Muslim audience, it is very applicable to everyone. I particularly liked the link to the 1968 Watchtower about the 1975 prediction. If only THAT article could be used for a modern WT study.
 
malikali
malikali 11 years ago

Hey guys,
I see some people have taken a liking to my site :smile:.
Kind of funny, as it seems to be the most popular page on all of my site. I was thinking of rewriting someparts so as to make it more applicable to other faiths. But I hope it helps you in your confrontations with Jw's.
We also have a forum too, http://forum.jamaat.net ,,incidently, many Jw's dont want to post in there, they would rather send me hate mail asking me to take down the site, and making all sorts of idle threats.
Best Regards
Malik Ali
------------------------------------
Jamaat.net Site Admin
------------------------------------
 

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Article: The Battle of Beliefs: Baptist, Nation of Islam & JWs at NY's subway stations
by AndersonsInfo a year ago 6 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo a year ago



CP Church & Ministries.
Friday, Oct 03, 2014 Close Print
Battle of Beliefs: Baptist Evangelist, Nation of Islam Muslim, and Jehovah Witnesses Vie for Souls at New York's Subway Stations
◦ (Photo: The Christian Post/Nicola A. Menzie) A group of Jehovah's Witnesses stand by their table displaying religious literature on Friday, Jan. 10, 2014, at the Atlantic Terminal subway station in New York City.
By Nicola Menzie January 13, 2014 | 3:01 pm
NEW YORK — A Baptist evangelist and a member of the Louis Farrakhan-led Nation of Islam yelled their respective versions of "the truth" over the din of screeching trains for the attention of weary commuters streaming through one of New York City's busiest subway stations one recent evening, all while a nearby and noticeably less rowdy group of Jehovah's Witnesses quietly replenished their table with more printed copies of their sect's beliefs.
Brother Shawn, as the Baptist evangelist called himself, weaved his way through the incessant wave of bodies at the Atlantic Terminal in the borough of Brooklyn where commuters can connect to several subway lines, the Long Island Rail Road, or do some shopping and casual dining in the above-ground mall. It was Friday after 6 p.m., the end of the work week, and people were moving however fast their legs would carry them to get wherever they had to go.
There was cacophony of metal against metal, automated announcements, the buzz of conversations, and outbursts from the National of Islam Muslim making a pitch for his newspapers, while Brother Shawn yelled about "Jesus' shed blood" and who was destined for heaven and hell.
Not too many commuters among the passing throng paid them any mind, although one gaunt and sour-faced man with white hair peeking out of his blue beanie managed to say without missing a step, "F--- off," likely expressing what many of his fellow New Yorkers were thinking as they dashed to their destinations.
Listen to the scene in the audio clip below (expletive included):


Brother Shawn retired to his corner briefly, a table manned by another gentleman and decorated with placards printed with Bible verses and various tracts. He told The Christian Post that he is a member of Blessed Hope Baptist Church in Brooklyn, "down near Coney Island." Brother Shawn also mentioned that he has been spreading the good news in New York City's subways for 7 years, and that he is a bit of a media darling.
In the audio clip below, Brother Shawn explains his evangelism work, why people might think Christians are crazy, and why the Gospel "is about love, not hate."
The Muslim gentleman selling copies of "The Final Call" refused to stand still and give up any of his time to talk, although he did mention that "God, He also loves spontaneous charity." This reporter considered, for a split second, to practice what God supposedly loves but then decided it would be best to hold on to that dollar, which in New York City is equivalent to a small coffee, a bagel with butter, or the surcharge for a MetroCard.
The Nation of Islam, founded in 1930, states as its goals the improvement of the spiritual, mental, social, and economic condition of African-Americans. The religious group, led by Minister Louis Farrakhan, has been accused of promoting black supremacy and antisemitism. It has been estimated that the Nation of Islam claims anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 members.
Just a few feet away from the sparring spectacle, two men and three women were peaceably huddled and sharing a quiet moment at the corner of a table set against a wall and arrayed with copies of the Jan. 2014 issue of "The Watchtower," a monthly magazine printed in over 200 languages featuring pretty illustrations that "announces Jehovah's Kingdom."
The group, its members all smiles, seemed delighted at CP's request for a brief interview, and the apparent leader of the group, Brian Alexander, stepped forward.
Mr. Alexander refused to say anything "disparaging" about Brother Shawn and his Muslim neighbor positioned just a few feet away, separated by a set of stairs leading up to the Atlantic Terminal Mall. Instead, he said that he thought it was "nice that they're taking time to share their views and their feelings on things when it comes to the Bible or to God."
Asked who, among the three groups offering New Yorkers' their version of "the truth," had it right, Alexander explained, "We always like to respond back to the words of Jesus in John 17:17 where he said that 'your word is truth.' From a human standpoint, we will never say that we have the right religion or that someone else has it, but we will go to the Bible, share what the Bible has to say and we'll leave it up to the individual to determine who has the truth."
Hear more of what Alexander had to say...about his methods for saving souls and his thoughts on who's right about God — himself, the Baptist evangelist, or the Nation of Islam.
Jehovah's Witnesses is a Christian denomination with non-trinitarian beliefs that differs from mainstream Protestantism. The sect, viewed as a cult by some Christians, uses its own translation of the Bible, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures and believes, in contradiction to mainstream Christianity, that Jesus was created by God as opposed to being God. The organization explains on its website that adherents do not worship Jesus, "as we do not believe that he is Almighty God."
Source URL : http://www.christianpost.com/news/battle-of-beliefs-baptist-evangelist-nation-of-islam-muslim-and-jehovah-witnesses-vie-for-souls-at-new-yorks-subway-stations-112512/
pixel.quantserve.com/pixel/p-f3_tFTzTnk8n2.gif" border="0" height="1" width="1" alt="Quantcast"/>

 
ShirleyW
ShirleyW a year ago

The Amish folks are getting into the act too. I could tell by the way they were dressed they were Amish. I don't know if they were there for recruiting purposes, but at a subway station a month or so ago, a big group of them were singing in the station and there were about two people handing out literature. I don't think they recruit so I guess they were just there for entertainment purposes and the literature was probably for folks who wanted to know more about them.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite a year ago

Crazy comes in a variety of flavors.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 a year ago

I will be the first to admire anyone of these religious groups that proudly declares, "My religion's weirder than yours".
 
carla
carla a year ago

What? no Moonies? they must be slacking off.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

And to think i was just listning to Alice Coopers " Welcome to my nightmare"
 
designs
designs a year ago

Superstition Row
 

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Jehovah's Witness meets a Born Again Christian on a Train. Oh and a Muslim
by passwordprotected 8 months ago 17 Replies latest 8 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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passwordprotected
passwordprotected 8 months ago

A couple of Saturdays ago I and my girlfriend (who happens to be baptised into the Greek Orthodox religion, but practises Greek Catholic...No, she's not Greek) were on the Virgin train from Glasgow to London.
We had reserved seats on the Quiet Zone of the train, because y'know, a 5 hour train journey shouldn't be sullied by mobile phones ringing and noisy conversations.
Somewhere around the Lake District a very tall woman sits at the table across the carriage from us, a table already occupied by a very chatty, bearded man in his late 50s, along with his wife. This man was directing people where to stow their luggage and asking random travellers questions about their journey to the point where I sent my girlfriend a text message (easier to communicate that way without others overhearing us) asking if he was the "train boss".
He struck up a conversation with this new passenger about his travels, but I wasn't really paying attention as I was watching a movie on my iPad, wearing noise cancelling headphones. After a little while I noticed they'd stopped chatting and the woman was now reading. The Bible, as it turned out. And not just any Bible, but one jacketed in silver faux leather. Yes, a newly revised NWT.
And then I noticed that the man behind to her was a Muslim and he was reading the Quran.
Jeezo.



After several minutes of Bible reading out comes the Watchtower, which she starts underlining...Talk about horrifying flashbacks. Via text messages I explained to my girlfriend what she was doing and why she was doing it, and about how the Watchtower "study" is a braindead exercise in making people...braindead.



A little while later I notice the bearded man strike up some chat with the Jehovah's Witness again, this time asking her about the JW doctrines. Of course, the trinity gets mentioned and the JW rolls out the standard "Reasoning From the Scriptures" retorts.
Their conversation continues for a long time while the bearded born again Christian refers to a little doctrinal pamphlet in his hand and the JW rolls out the stock WTBTS approved responses.
Each was witnessing to the other. Each was trying to convert the other.
Meanwhile the Muslim man sat quietly with his Quran and some prayer beads...
Meanwhile I was getting more and more pissed off.
Firstly, this was a Quiet Zone carriage. So they shoulda shut the fuck up. Secondly, hearing the born again Christian "conversion" process (he actually asked her quite loudly whether she accepted Christ was raised from the dead to forgive her sins, at which point my girlfriend and the woman sitting opposite us looked at each other with raised eyebrows) going toe-to-toe with the JW witnessing algorithms, was driving me bonkers as I have enough experience with both to see all the logical fallacies and special pleading and it was taking all of my self-control not to butt into the conversation (in the Quiet Zone) and verbal shoot their arguments down in flames.
And lastly, this is 2015 and people are still debating and arguing over the deeds of a very likely mythical rabbi called Jesus, making judgements, determining life decisions based on the pontifications of men who died hundreds of years ago, the men who decided the canon of scripture and who seemingly set in stone doctrines and orthodoxy that have been debated and fought over long after they lost any relevance to life in our 21st century world...
And all the while the Muslim kept his council and his spirituality to himself.
Y'know, when you buy a seat in the Quiet Zone, I really wish people would do just that - keep quiet.
Anyway, after a long time their conversation ended and our JW passenger turned to the back of her NWT and made sure she refreshed her doctrinal opinions with GB approved logic from the Appendix....
 +7 / -0
besty
besty 8 months ago

ah you should have weighed in Mark :wink:
I think you could have argued they were in breach of the 'do not make unnecessary noise' instruction for the Quiet Coach




 +2 / -0
username
username 8 months ago

A fellow Scott? I think I would either move (although this is easier said than done with Virgin Trains reservation policy) or better still actually say to the JW woman I DA'd myself due to the watchtower's question nothing doctrine. What would she do with a so called apostate sitting a couple of seats away from her???
Now that would be worth watching lol.
 +2 / -0
besty
besty 8 months ago
3 scots on this thread - thats a riot right there...
 
passwordprotected
passwordprotected 8 months ago
I'm kinda past getting involved in religious debates and for all I was pissed off I didn't want to speak up because we still had a long journey to go and the tension in the carriage would have been worse than the religious rumblings. Plus as my girlfriend is a person of faith, albeit a different stripe from any evangelical type, I prefer to avoid pulling out my "crush the religious argument" arsenal.
 +3 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 8 months ago

What the devil is a "Virgin train"? i didn't know trains could have sex.
 +1 / -0
The Searcher
The Searcher 8 months ago

As a Scot, I'd have jumped right into the conversation and asked the Witness some embarrassing questions about the Org's corrupt doctrines. She'd have shut up then!
Sorry Besty - the riot just got bigger!
 +1 / -0
KateWild
KateWild 8 months ago

Lol the title sounds like a joke, nice experience but I was expecting a joke from you lol
Kate xx
 +1 / -0
SafeAtHome
SafeAtHome 8 months ago

Are those actual photos of the situation you descibed? If so, that young woman should be reproved for studying the watchtower in public wearing jeans. She should at all times be in KH attire. She probably made Jehovah very sad.😉
 +3 / -0
StrongHaiku
StrongHaiku 8 months ago

LOL! I thought the post was an intro to a joke too...
Maybe put a thought bubble over each person that says:
"My God is good. My holy book is from God. My religion is the true religion. I am special. Everyone else who doesn't believe what I do is going to meet a horrible end. Only my people will be saved. Why can't everyone see it as I do?"
If it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.
 +1 / -0
under the radar
under the radar 8 months ago

Thanks for sharing that story, and especially for the pics. I don't blame you for being put off by the loud discussion, especially when you paid extra to be in the quiet section. If there was a conductor or attendant around, they should have asked them to dial it back or move to another car.
This reminded me of my own train story, though it's not nearly as interesting as yours. I was in Cambridge between Christmas and New Year's a year ago and got to take the high speed train down to London and back for a day of sightseeing. Really enjoyed the train ride, and finally seeing some of the historic spots in London I'd always wanted to see was great. It was a very good, albeit long, day. Anyway, as we're speeding down the tracks toward London at about 100 mph (160 km/h), what should I see out the window but a big blue JW-dot-org sign put up in someone's back yard, obviously put there to "witness" to the train passengers. I wonder if the homeowner is a JW just doing his bit, or if a local congregation paid someone to put it there. Unfortunately, it whizzed by too fast for me to get a shot of it.
Shoot! All this talk of trains makes me want to go back and finish reading The Girl on the Train. There goes the morning...
 +1 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 8 months ago

Still hoping a Scot will tell me what a Virgin train is. Is Virgin their way of saying non-stop? Might be good to know if/when I visit the country.
The great thing about the country I'm in is no one is allowed to talk noisily on a train. They will soon be shushed by the people around them. It makes preaching almost impossible!.

 +1 / -0
Bungi Bill
Bungi Bill 8 months ago

This reminds me of a place where I once worked:
- owned by a family of Exclusive Bretheren, and the work crew included a JW (myself), a "Born-Again" fellow of a particularly fanatical stripe, plus one person who could not stand hearing the subject of religion being discussed. Needless to say, she was frequently quite irritated!
Bill.
 
cliff
cliff 8 months ago

"VIRGIN" is the brand name of a string of companies started and owned by Richard Branson.
Virgin Atlantic airline, Virgin music, trains, banking etc etc
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 8 months ago

Sounds like the premise for a great Hitchcock film. Too bad they didn't all murder each other, they all had motives!
DD
 
Quarterback
Quarterback 8 months ago
Your noise cancelling Headphones are not working too well. You should buy some good Bose headphones.
 
Bonsai
Bonsai 8 months ago

Thanks for the explanation Cliff. Good to know. I'd like to visit Scotland and England someday.

 
passwordprotected
passwordprotected 8 months ago

@Quarterback - the noise cancelling is digital. The headphones analyse the ambient sounds and determine the frequency, cancelling noise from aircraft engines, trains etc. But they're smart enough to allow the human voice to get through a little. When you're listening to music, watching a movie etc, all external noise is completely cut off.
http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/headband-headphones/mdr-1rnc

I was more put off with what they were discussing; I couldn't actually hear them when I had the headphones on and the movie was playing, but my natural nosiness had me pausing the movie so that I could tap into the chat. Which was daft as it was just pissing me off...
 

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A Muslim thinks JW's are a Menace to them
by ICBehindtheCurtain 10 years ago 27 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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ICBehindtheCurtain
ICBehindtheCurtain 10 years ago

Hey guys, I found the following to be quite interesting, they have some great links to JW literature, maybe this will help the lurkers to see that the house to house preaching waste of time, is pretty redundant as many religious people are now wise to the fallacy of the Borg. What to you guys think?
IC


A MUSLIM GUIDE TO COUNTERING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES The greatest menace to Muslim homes in the West
by Malik Ali


As a Muslim who lives in a Western country, I have come to realise that the greatest harassment comes from a Christian sect that numbers a mere 6-7 million; the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Muslims come across them so often for the very factor that they come knocking on their doors. The group was born in the U.S.A. (Like almost every other cult you might come across) and every weekend they come armed with their contrived New World Translation Bible and their Awake, Watchtower magazines; they'll come pounding on your doors. Yes, the lady and the gentleman who come dressed in business suits. No their not trying to sell you products, but "simply" to destroy your Iman in exchange for their humorous "The world is coming to an end" cult.
Many Muslims are aware of their failed past prophecies; but it's usually your word against theirs. The purpose of this page is to expose these cultist using their own tools. The following are scanned Photostats of the past magazines of Awake and the Watchtower. Articles that these cultists dread if any one was to come across; yet over the past decades they have been handing them out door to door, country to country. The Jehovah's Witnesses view the Islamic faith as satanic, they have written anti-Islamic materials and even travel to Muslim countries to try and witness (their euphemism for convert) to our brethren. Muslims have to understand that Christianity is not a monolithic rock, it comprises of innumerable sects that differ on almost every theological aspect of the Christian faith, and to defend yourselves against it you have to understand the nature of these offspring's. it is pointless arguing with a Jehovah's Witness that the Bible says this and says that. Trying to bring up contradictions, the humanity of Jesus (incidentally, they don't believe Jesus is God, but still acknowledge his divine sonship), etc. Their faith seems to belong in a man made organisation, the Watchtower in New York. They'll vehemently deny this; but ask them where all their magazines, Bibles, commentries, religious books and guides are printed. Their are many former Jehovah's Witnesses that have entered the fold of Islam (ironically, it starts from them having visited a Muslim home in order to witness). Although many are trained not to listen, you as a believer can only do your best, and leave the rest to Allah (swt). This page is meant mainly as a defense for Muslims, and not necessarily Dawah to them.
I recommend for Muslims who regularly come into contact with Jehovah's Witnesses, to print out the scanned Photostat articles following from the links below. Trust me, once you've shown them this. They'll give you a pathetic defense and stand their pretending their shocked, and most of them will never come to your houses again. It's difficult for someone to swallow their own past failures that now go against their dogma.
STEP BY STEP, WE BEGIN
STEP 1.The book of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 sets a standard on how to judge if a Prophet is from God.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Well, it's simple. This is a criteria that Muslims can also agree to, if a Prophet is from God, any Prophecy he makes should eventuate as claimed. This would be the sole ultimate proof of the Prophets genuineness. If the prophecies don't come to pass, then the so-called Prophet is a false Prophet. And hence he is not being guided by God at all, we shall not be afraid (respect) of them, let alone of what they teach. As you'll see, the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters (the Watchtower in Brooklyn, New York) claims to be a body of Prophets as those sent to the peoples of the Biblical era.
STEP 2.
WHO GUIDES THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY? Just incase they tell you they've always relied on human wisdom (or lack of it). You must show them that the Watchtower claims to be a Prophet of Jehovah (God). If they don't acknowledge it, then it is really pointless exposing to them the failed prophecy articles coming up. But they usually will confirm that the Watchtower organisation is indeed "inspired and guided" by God almighty.
WHAT DO THE WATCHTOWER MAGAZINES GLEAM WITH? "the scriptural and prophetic truths"
STEP 3.
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO HUMANITY IN 1918? Take one big guess
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO HUMANITY IN 1925
AND WHICH PROPHETS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE RESURRECTED? Oops, I think our calculations were wrong
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN 1975? and it wasn't Muhammad Ali's boxing victory against Joe Frazier
STEP 4.
LETTING THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG? Who makes false prophecies?

You can now see the false nature of the Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the criteria set by God to Moses, the Jehovah's Witnesses are a false body. Not withstanding the religious factor, on a legal and material basis, they have duped thousands into doing ludicrous things prior to these expected prophecies; such as selling their property and cars at ridiculous cheap rates. After all, your not going to need your BMW, Benz and mansion in the hereafter.

THEIR BIBLE
But there's more, the same organisation that claims God guides and the Holy Spirit inspires their Awake and Watchtower magazines. Published an article in 1957, entitled "50 000 Errors in the Bible" . Print the 2 pages out. Let the Jehovah's Witness read it, and their initial shock will subside and they'll most likely say (once the Holy Ghost has "inspired" him or her) "The article says most of the 50 000 errors have been corrected" (in their New World Translation.) Indeed that is what the article reads, but wait!
Ask them "If most of the errors have been corrected, how many remain; 5 000, 500, 50. Or even if 50 errors remained. Would you attribute those 50 errors to God"They'll look shocked, scanning their eyes through the article. After some weak ums and buts, they'll usually come to two points in the end.
This is what you can likely expect; they'll ask you if they can take the article or the publication date in order to go to their
past archives and verify if its genuine. Be generous, and allow them to do so.
The next thing they'll say is that they will come with a senior member of their Kingdom Hall (Church) to discuss this issue. In other words they won't come again. And if you had given them the extract, without question they will not come again, (Probably thinking that it's the only copy you have). In all my encounters with them, they have never come back. Maybe you could be lucky..
For some reason, it's like they're programmed to come up with the same responses and postures. That's why I've found them to be very predictable; and you'll most likely too.

THE NAME JEHOVAH
In regards to the Name Jehovah, you can read Sheikh Ahmed Deedats book What is his name?. In the chapter under the heading Who is Jehovah?. An excellent essay I have come across is by Gerald Sigal,
THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY AND THE NAME OF GOD located at the Jews for Judaism site. Yep, you're not alone, even our cousins are wary of these cultists. Another great essay by the same author has written
THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES? The thesis is about how Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to cover up their failed prophecies.
Both the essays above are brief and is a must read.
I have written up a page giving the names of Jehovah in many languages of the world. You'll be shocked, no the English speaking cultists have not settled for one name. They've allowed many nations and cultures around the world to distort the supposed name of God into various stylish names. Get this, the Japanese Jehovah's Witnesses pronounce the "divine name" as Ehoba. Well I guess the cult can claim to cater for all cultural tastes. Despite the fact that the Semitic peoples (Jews and Arabs) have always placed an emphasis on correct vocal pronunciation of any name or concept; especially the name of God Almighty.

STORIES OF CONVERTS
FROM THE WATCHTOWER TO THE MINARETA story of a Jehovah's Witness who became a Muslim. Out of all the conversion stories I've ever read, this one has to be the most humorous of all.
BACK TO THE COMPOSITIONS PAGE
WWW.JAMAAT.NET
 
greendawn
greendawn 10 years ago

Not that the JWs can make make much headway among the muslims even in the West, but they are wising up to the kind of lying deception that they really stand for. Even the Moslems realised that they are false prophets.
 
Super_Becka
Super_Becka 10 years ago

A Muslim thinks JW's are a Menace to them
Heh, I'm inclined to think that JWs are a menace to society as a whole.  Good thing that they're not as all-encompassing as they'd like to be, or we'd all be doomed!!
-Becka :smile:
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

At least JWs will not fly planes into bulidings
 
MuadDib
MuadDib 10 years ago

I bet they would if the society told them to.
 
The Chuckler
The Chuckler 10 years ago

quote:
THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY AND THE NAME OF GOD
located at the Jews for Judaism site. Yep, you're not alone, even our cousins are wary of these cultists.
:unquote
WTF!! They hate the JWs more than the Jews?
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

Two Hostages Beheaded in the Philippines
 Two members of a Jehovah's witness Christian sect were beheaded two days after
being kidnapped by Muslim rebels in the southern Philippines. ...www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=817 - 10k
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 10 years ago

Nothing like the pot calling the kettle black....two of a kind....both cults....and neither can see it in themselves, but can see it in others
Coffee
 
Phil
Phil 10 years ago

The reason that Muslims do not like JWs is that they ae alike. What do you think will happen to a member of the Islam faith marries a person of another faith. In some countries the person will be stoned to death. Particularly if it happens to be a woman. Shunning, big time.
 
Mary
Mary 10 years ago

A Muslim thinks JW's are a Menace to them
Oh brother.......is there anyone that Muslims DON'T think are a menace to them? At least the Witnesses don't hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings. And when was the last time we saw Witnesses rioting and torching embassies because someone wrote a cartoon about them that they didn't think was very funny? The Witnesses have most definitely got alot of idiotic beliefs and practices, but they can't hold a torch to the absolutely insane religion of Islam.........
 
delilah
delilah 10 years ago

Amen, Mary....I'm growing weary with all this Muslim rioting over a silly cartoon....they need to lighten up a bit...they're far too serious a culture.
 
Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

I luv it!
Thanks for posting this IC
 
ICBehindtheCurtain
ICBehindtheCurtain 10 years ago

Robdar, you are welcome! I also think it's the pot calling the kettle black, they can and have good reason to critisize the JW's but they should take a look at themselves and see the stupidity that is costing so many lives.
IC
 
Woodsman
Woodsman 10 years ago

The reason that Muslims do not like JWs is that they ae alike.
I got some crazy stares from a bunch of Witnesses after 911 when I made a comparison between radical Islam and the Jews of the Hebrew Bible. Namely how both will gladly wipe out people of other faiths, man women and child in the name of their God.
I took it a step further and said 'Isn't that what you pray for when you pray for armageddon to come?"
Seems to me it would be wrong for a Witness to criticize the terrorists for killing civilians.
They didn't want to discuss it.
 
Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

I agree IC.
Ya know, I find fanatics soooo amusing. Well, it's amusing until somebody gets killed. Then it isn't funny. But before it gets to that point, they can be quite entertaining. Ever listened to Pat Robertson? He cracks me up.
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 10 years ago

yeah, Robdar...Pat Robertson does say some pretty dumb things....but I don't think you need to worry that he will be organizing any suicide bombers or beheadings any time soon.
Coffee
 
Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

yeah, Robdar...Pat Robertson does say some pretty dumb things....but I don't think you need to worry that he will be organizing any suicide bombers or beheadings any time soon.
Well, he may not be organizing them but if he doesn't learn when to shut his big, fat, trap, he might get one of his followers to thinking about it.
Sorry, but you can't convince me that Christians are better than Muslims. Both can be fanatical. And extreme in that fanatacism.
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 10 years ago

I haven't seen any fanatical Christians rioting, burning and killing in the name of Christ . . .not on the news , anyway, or in this century. And because of a caricature? Please don't tell me you understand their " feelings".
 
gumby
gumby 10 years ago

If missionaries from christendom were as active in the same areas the witnesses are, they'd be as big a pain in the ass the dubs are. The simple fact is....they ( the muslims), believe they have the truth as much as do the dubs and get as irritated as a dub would if muslims banged on their doors and offered THEIR literature.
Guslim
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 10 years ago

I must ask the question . . .Is the rioting by Muslims warranted by the driving force of a cartoon? And if it is ,want is it you all think we should do in order to be safe in case it all boils over to your home country?
 

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A Muslim thinks JW's are a Menace to them
by ICBehindtheCurtain 10 years ago 27 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

I haven't seen any fanatical Christians rioting, burning and killing in the name of Christ . . .not on the news , anyway, or in this century. And because of a caricature? Please don't tell me you understand their " feelings".
 Hmmmm, you haven't seen them killing?
 What about those abortion doctors that were shot down in cold blood a couple of years ago? How bout the burnings of abortion clinics? How about the riots outside of abortion clinics? Just do a google search. Then come back here and tell me that you don't see fanatical christians running amok.
 Why would I tell you that I understand their feelings? What do feelings have to do with the point you are trying to make? As a matter of fact, since you think you already know my answers to your questions, why did you even bother asking me? You really aren't that good of a smart ass, you know. But keep trying. Sooner or later you'll get better.
 
Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

Oh, and another thing, Tigerman:
If Christians aren't fanatical, then why do they look at the war in Iraq as some type of holy war? When was the last time you were in church? I had a preacher tell me that the war in Iraq was God's way of showing the power of Christ to the infidels.
I do believe that if Christians could get by with half the stuff that the Muslims are getting by with, they'd do it in a hearbeat.
Sure, Muslims have a lot to learn about the "peace of Allah". But the Christians have a lot to learn about the "love of Christ" too. Don't tell me they don't. History and current events tell us otherwise.
 
Clam
Clam 10 years ago

Really good link IC, thanks for that. I wonder how many moslems have converted to Borgism and how many Dubs have gone on to become moslems.
I certainly wouldn't want to be knocking on the doors in some of the moslem communities overe here in England.
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 10 years ago

Robdar,
Fanatics can be found in any belief system...(not just Christian & Muslim) and that is where the danger lies. Some groups are able to exploit this with horrible results. It seems to be happening within the Muslim community on a larger scale than anywhere else in the world. I don't deny that there have been some Christians who have done some terrible things in the name of religion. The difference I see is that Fundamentalist Muslims are taught to hate. They don't seem to have much respect for the value of human life. Christians are taught the love of Christ. (some don't get it., i know..but I think most do)
I won't attempt to convince you that there is a difference. You have made up your mind, and you are entitled to your opinion.
Coffee
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 10 years ago

Robdar:
"You really aren't that good of a smart ass, you know. But keep trying. Sooner or later you'll get better." you said.
Thanks, luv your confidence in me.


Tigerman
 
Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

Fanatics can be found in any belief system...(not just Christian & Muslim)
Coffee, that is my whole point. Fanatics can be found in any belief system. Although I haven't met too many fanatical Buddhists. I am just tired of those on this board who have an agenda against Muslims. All the while ignoring the Christians as if some how we are better than those people. It smacks of Jdubdom.
Maybe it's because I used to despise Muslims myself. When I would see a veiled woman, my blood would boil. Then I met a few Muslims in person. There is a BIG difference between a Muslim and a Muslim fanatic. Same as Christians. I live in the Bible Belt and I meet fanatical Christians most every day due to my line of work. Believe me, some of them are very hot headed and fanatical. I've had to even throw some of them out of the gallery. All are convinced that God is fighting on their side and the side of the Jews.
Any way, my mind may be made up but you just agreed with me so, I will leave it at that.
Here's my peace offering:


Robyn
 
Robdar
Robdar 10 years ago

Right back at you, lovely Tigerman!


But let me give you this too:


 
coffee_black
coffee_black 10 years ago

Hi Robdar,
I don't agree with you...just recognize that you have every right to your opinion. .. as do I. I don't have an agenda...but I don't see the world through your eyes. I've had very different experiences than you have...
No peace offering necessary....
Coffee
 

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Topic Summary
hey guys, i found the following to be quite interesting, they have some great links to jw literature, maybe this will help the lurkers to see that the house to house preaching waste of time, is pretty redundant as many religious people are now wise to the fallacy of the borg.
what to you guys think?.
ic.



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Tonight on Glenn Beck. The anti-Christ is Muslim.
by villabolo 5 years ago 19 Replies latest 5 years ago   social current
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villabolo
villabolo 5 years ago

Joel Richardson, author of The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast, is going to be appearing on Glenn Beck's show tonight. He believes that the whole book of Revelations centers around the Muslim world with an Anti-Christ Muslim. No wonder Glenn likes him.
Watch his videos and get a sense of where ultrafundamentalism may be leading us to. All you need is to throw in Peak Oil; have it declared to be an evil conspiracy by Fox News; have a conservative president in power along with Tea Party elected psychos dominating Congress; and presto! World War III.
To those who have ears, let them hear.


&feature=player_embedded


&NR=1

&feature=related
Villabolo
 
Robdar
Robdar 5 years ago

OMG! I never suspected.
 
XJW4EVR
XJW4EVR 5 years ago

First, I am not a Dispensationalist, nor a pre-tribulationalist (Google for the definitions of these terms). That being said, I have always had (and still have) an interest in biblical prophecy. When I was a JW, I once wrote a term paper on the 70 weeks (found in the book of Daniel) prophecy that seriously departed from the WT orthodoxy.
So based on this hobby, I do follow the prophecy buffs. Joel Richardson is a disciple of Chuck Missler, and Chuck Missler is a disciple of Hal Lindsey. Lindsey & Missler held that the Anti-Christ would come out of the former Soviet Union. When it, and the entire Communist Bloc of nations collapsed, they focused in on the European Union as the spawning ground of the Anti-Christ. In the aftermath of 9/11, however, a young group of prophecy buffs, Richardson, Walid Shoebat & Avi Lipkin, all of which have direct or indirect ties to Missler and Lindsey, have come to noteriety by pointing to Islam as the spawning ground for the Anti-Christ.
The view that Islam would be the spawning ground for the Anti-Christ is based on a number of Islamic echatological statements about The 12th Imam, or Muhammad al-Mahdi, found in the various non-Qur'anic writings of Islam. The Shi'a and the Sunni sects of Islam have differing views on the exact identity of this Imam, but they are united in the belief that he will bring peace and justice to the earth. It is interesting to note, that the Sunni Muslims believe that Jesus will return with this 12th Imam.
I find all this speculation interesting, and in some cases very compelling. I believe, however, that there is a flaw in many of these prophecy buffs thinking. They are Christians running to the writings of another religion in order to get insight into something that Jesus himself said has not even for his closest associates the disciples (Acts 1:7). My emphasis on the word not is in harmony with the fact that the Greek word translated "not" was taken out of its proper syntax in order to emphasize its importance.
Eschatology is an area in which there is "in-house" disagreement, particularly in the details. What there is agreement in, however, is that Jesus is coming back visibly and in power to judge the peoples of the earth.
 
villabolo
villabolo 5 years ago

XJW4EVR: "First, I am not a Dispensationalist, nor a pre-tribulationalist (Google for the definitions of these terms)."
XJW, I'm familiar with the theological term.
Even though Jesus said that it was not the time for his disciples to know the "time or dates", dispensationalists are in the habit of saying that this statement applied only at the time it was uttered. During the end times, however God would reveal it, according to the following scripture:
4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.--Daniel 12:4 New International Version
This gives them a way out to make whatever claim they want.
Villabolo
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 5 years ago

Daniel is so much older than Jesus or Paul as scripture. Ultimately, who cares? Glenn Beck is dangerous.
I lived in Manhattan, downtown Manhattan on 9/11. My last job was one block from the World Trade Center. I was in there about five times a day. Half of my local firehouse was killed on that day. That horrible day and the following months of always being conscious of what happened. Never being able to escape. I was exposed to Moslem before that day. Decent people. Islam is a very decent, mainstream religion. It is like HItler, a dangerous antiChrist b/c he happend to be Christian in name.
I was so exposed, flinching as the air force patrolled the skies overhead. Commuting hours out of my way. The Exodus from the WTC walking past my apartment building, all dazed and in shock. My fear was overreacting and blaming all Muslims. The East Village has NYU dorms now. When I came home, students across the street, removed their bed sheets and painted peace signs on them then flung them out for the public. I was serenaded by John Lennon's Give Peace a Chance and Imagine 24/7 the first few days. I heard as I attended the vigil in Union Square park, then later when I went to Ground Zero to cheer the rescuers as they changed shifts. I saw the Fire Department ambulances escort the dead bodies to the Medical Examiner's Office. People stopped what they were doing and saluted the dead. Bellevue was a sea of thousands of flyers of the missing with votice candles on the ground. My stake was high.
I had to attend a program at Bellevue a week after 9/11. A woman walked in heavy purdah. No one bothered her. It was not remarkable. My body was so revved up. She did not need a police escort. No one blamed her for the attacks. Later, I freaked when I had to hail a taxi b/c the drivers are Middle Eastern and North African. I had a male taxi driver from Egypt, a university student. My fear was that I would start to assault him. I was so full of rage! The trip was great.
Actual people blow stereotypes and misconcpetions to smithereens. Know an actual Moslem family and try to hate them. Glenn Beck can go to hell. Does Beck care or does he know sensational headlines bring increased ratings. Beck can't be so stupid, or is he? Sanity and rational thinking are crucial
 
mindmelda
mindmelda 5 years ago

Band on the Run, you're one of the most sane people I've ever met online. Bless you for writing that.
People who dispense the kind of sensationalism Beck does scare the shit out of me. He's the political pundit's equivalent of an idiot who shouts "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater and then claims innocence at sight of the trampled bodies.
 
strymeckirules
strymeckirules 5 years ago

we don't get glenn beck in canada. but i get to see john stewart's commentary on him.
the whole fox media corp is dangerous. i don't know if folks buy in to the crap or what?
i'm been working one on one with a good friend muslim for a while and we talk beliefs . muslims answer to abrahams god. the only stuff that does'nt jive is all the tradition passed down by the muslim "clergy". a true muslim is a good man.
i hope the u.s. public have watched the AE911.org documentary.
 
villabolo
villabolo 5 years ago

Strymeckirules: "we don't get glenn beck in canada. but i get to see john stewart's commentary on him."
Strymeck, if you're into masochism, I suggest Beck's website www.theblaze or, better yet, www.mediamatters.org which is always keeping tabs on his antics. They have short clips on him, which is about all one can take.
Mindmelda:
"People who dispense the kind of sensationalism Beck does scare the shit out of me. He's the political pundit's equivalent of an idiot who shouts "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater and then claims innocence at sight of the trampled bodies."
Beck has already inspired the murders at the Unitarian Church a while back. The murderer admitted to the police that he was a Beck fan and that he killed the church members because he couldn't get to liberals in positions of power.
Band on the Run.
Thank's Band for sharing that. I believe things would have been much worse at 9/11 if Glenn Beck were on Fox back then. You would have had lynchings inspired by him. As for his state of mind, I believe that he is a Narcissist in the clinical sense.
I don't think his smarts, whatever they may be, can counterbalance his arrogance and paranoia. They are leading to 'stupid' (psychotic), self destructive behavior such as pointing the finger to the Bush administration as allies to those involved in his 'Muslim conspiracy' and his lashing out against Republicans. He is also losing substantial ratings.
Villabolo
 
beksbks
beksbks 5 years ago

Crazy squared
 
XJW4EVR
XJW4EVR 5 years ago


XJW, I'm familiar with the theological term.
Even though Jesus said that it was not the time for his disciples to know the "time or dates", dispensationalists are in the habit of saying that this statement applied only at the time it was uttered. During the end times, however God would reveal it, according to the following scripture:
4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.--Daniel 12:4 New International Version
This gives them a way out to make whatever claim they want.
And this is exactly why I am not a dispensationalist. They are inconsistent in their application of scripture in order to fit their doctrinal presuppostions.
 
purplesofa
purplesofa 5 years ago

Rachel Maddow's clip on the subject
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#41674753
 
villabolo
villabolo 5 years ago

Thanks for the link Purps.
Rachel Maddow on Glenn Beck: "...one of the deeper, more fecund cesspools of conspiracy theories..."



Villabolo
 
suenott63
suenott63 5 years ago

I personally detest hatred of any kind and as for ex jdubs we all know whats its like to be led down the garden path. Many muslims are misled including those that have commited the atrocities we have seen since 911 . However in my experience I have met and been close friends with muslims, in fact i lived in turkey for a year and was always treated with respect and friendliness. I also when i split from my wife was put up by a friend and his lovely family(all muslims) they would not exept any money for my board for 3 months and I will alway be endepted to them for thier hospitality.
The best way to do away with predudice is by education and to travel and experience other cultures first hand. We will then see we are really not that different and should develop a respect for our fellow man.
 
Iron Head
Iron Head 5 years ago

A little bump for Babaloo and Purplesofa
Rachel Maddow's clip on the subject
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#41674753
 
villabolo
villabolo 5 years ago

Dark Head, or is it Iron Side?
"A little bump for Babaloo and Purplesofa
Rachel Maddow's clip on the subject"
I don't mind being bumped up one bit but didn't Purplesofa post that same link? Why the redundancy?
Do you happen to agree with the idea, obviously being ridiculed by Rachel Madddow, that Obama is the Antichrist.? If so, please let us know. You may, perhaps, even want to start your own thread on that earth shaking subject.
By the way, you who have criticized other posters spelling, are still in the habit of not putting periods at the end of your sentences.
Villabolo
 
MeanMrMustard
MeanMrMustard 5 years ago

Why are there so many people in this world that are nucking futs??

 
villabolo
villabolo 5 years ago

MeanMrMustard: "Why are there so many people in this world that are nucking futs??"
My theory is that once our brains evolved to a certain level of complexit,y there was a lot more that could go wrong with it. The more complicated something is, the more it's likely to malfunction.
Gwenn Dreck is a recovered alcoholic, and heavy alcohol consumption damages the brain. It stays damaged even after one stops drinking.
Villabolo
 
Iron Head
Iron Head 5 years ago

Dark Head, or is it Iron Side?
"A little bump for Babaloo and Purplesofa
Rachel Maddow's clip on the subject"
I don't mind being bumped up one bit but didn't Purplesofa post that same link? Why the redundancy?
Do you happen to agree with the idea, obviously being ridiculed by Rachel Madddow, that Obama is the Antichrist.? If so, please let us know. You may, perhaps, even want to start your own thread on that earth shaking subject.
By the way, you who have criticized other posters spelling, are still in the habit of not putting periods at the end of your sentences.
Villabolo
It was Dark Side. It's now Iron Head
I bumped your thread as a favor to you and Purps
I try to avoid putting periods at the end of my comments. Sometimes I err
Gwenn Dreck is a recovered alcoholic, and heavy alcohol consumption damages the brain. It stays damaged even after one stops drinking.
WOW
How do you not laugh when you look in the mirror?
 
Sam Whiskey
Sam Whiskey 5 years ago

Every notice how Villabroho is an expert at EVERYTHING?
It's simply amazing!
 
Sam Whiskey
Sam Whiskey 5 years ago

Villabroho at work! It's amazing how he know's so much!


 

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Two Jehovahs Witnesses Beheaded!
by deceit 14 years ago 109 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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deceit
deceit 14 years ago


Muslim rebels in the southern Philippines have beheaded two Christian hostages, part of a group of Jehovah's Witnesses seized on Tuesday.
The two severed heads were found by the Philippines military on the remote southern island of Jolo.
The army chief on Jolo, Brigadier General Romeo Tolentino, said that a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: "Those who do not believe in Allah will suffer the same fate."
The rebels, believed to be members of the Abu Sayyaf group, are still holding four women taken hostage at the same time, including the wife of one of the murdered men.
The army has now launched a ground and air offensive on suspected Abu Sayyaf positions around the town of Patikul, near where the group were taken captive.
Two freed
According to the authorities, the Abu Sayyaf seized eight people as they were travelling in a jeep near Patikul on Tuesday.

Two of the men, who were Muslim, were soon freed, but the six Christians were held.
Officials originally said that the two men and four women were selling cosmetics door to door for the Avon company.
However, later reports suggest that this may have been a cover to allow the Christians to engage in missionary work in a predominantly Muslim area.
The group came mainly from the city of Zamboanga, on the main southern Philippine island of Mindanao.
The kidnapping was the first on the island since US troops began working with the Philippine military to hunt down the Abu Sayyaf group.
The Abu Sayyaf group is best known for kidnapping for ransom, though the US and Philippines governments have linked it to the al-Qaeda network.

Frequent kidnappings
The US sent more than 1,000 troops to the southern Philippines to train local security forces for their campaign against the Abu Sayyaf, which last year took dozens of people hostage, including three Americans.
The US troops left the country last month.
The latest kidnapping took place on the island of Jolo, about 80 kilometres (50 miles) south-west of Basilan.
The victims were travelling in a remote region when suspected Abu Sayyaf gunmen stopped their vehicle.
They were made to get out and led away into a forest, the military said.
The Abu Sayyaf rebels on Jolo are reported to belong to a different faction than those operating on Basilan island, and are believed to have suffered less from recently military offensives.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2208898.stm
Edited by - deceit on 22 August 2002 1:54:43
Edited by - deceit on 22 August 2002 1:57:13
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago

I'm really sorry to hear this. I wish all the hostages to go home safe and sound.
 
Liberated
Liberated 14 years ago


This is very sad news. I read about it at this site. It makes mention of others who have been kidnapped and killed too. I'm with you dungbeetle.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020822/ap_on_re_as/philippines_hostages_7
Libby
 
peaceloveharmony
peaceloveharmony 14 years ago

:frowning:
 
sunshineToo
sunshineToo 14 years ago

This is horrible!
 
professor
professor 14 years ago

Sad indeed.
 
Scully
Scully 14 years ago


This is just sickening.
I hope the WTS is doing something to get these people and any other missionaries out of the country.
Love, Scully
 
Been there
Been there 14 years ago


This is so sickening!
Religious intolerance to the absolute extreme. The witnesses aren't looking so bad right now, atleast they haven't taken to beheading yet.
My prayers are with these poor people.
 
abomination
abomination 14 years ago

make that 5, 999, 998......
 
Trauma_Hound
Trauma_Hound 14 years ago

I would wish no one this kind of terible harm, I really hope the rest of them come home safe. This is so terrible. :frowning:
 
morrisamb
morrisamb 14 years ago


I was watching CNN at 10:35pm and Aaron Brown announced this. Shocking. For me it's like a knife in my gut..hearing the loss of a family member. I can't explain it.
It happens to me when I hear something terrible happen to Witnesses in my area, even if they don't talk to me.
 
writerpen
writerpen 14 years ago

I've been following this story since yesterday and I've just cried every time I've thought about it. I often find myself crying about news items like this, but this one touches a little closer to home. As stated in an earlier post about this topic, while their religion has caused me grief, I would not wish this on anyone and have included these people in my prayers. I hope they will be okay, and if not, that they will at least experience a calm spirit through anything they may experience.
 
Dismembered
Dismembered 14 years ago

Now that's sad
 
LovesDubs
LovesDubs 14 years ago

I dont care HOW deep into the "end" we are..the Society has NO BUSINESS having people preaching in that part of the world right now. NO business. They are accountable for this.
 
blondie
blondie 14 years ago

I just read a recent news article that said they weren't witnessing but were selling Avon products (not as official reps thought), herb teas. But I suppose they couldn't help informal witnessing. Islam bans proselytizing and the extreme groups take it very seriously (obviously with cutting heads off). I don't think all the facts have been sorted out yet.
 
Mary
Mary 14 years ago


And they claim that Islam is a religion of peace? Gimme a break. This is absolutely sickening and I'd like to see these bastards bombed right into the stone age........which is where their thinking is anyway.
I hope the Society has enough sense to get any missionaries they have in the Phillipines out of there.......It's kind of hard to "preach in all the inhabited lands" if they're going to kill you before you get two words out of your mouth.
 
cruzanheart
cruzanheart 14 years ago

Of course this bothers all of us! No matter what we think of the organization, we all know really nice, sincere Jehovah's Witnesses who are doing their best to do the right thing as they are told it is. And hearing about anyone being beheaded for no good reason is sickening. I hope the rest of the hostages come out of this alive.
 
bboyneko
bboyneko 14 years ago

The jehovahs witnesses themselves go around preaching about a god who ordered his people to kill any who did not beleive in him. So they suffered the same fate as what the god they beleived in has administered to unbeleivers in the past. Like how god in 1 samuel chapter 15 orders his followers to slay not just children, but babies because their parents didn't worship or beleive in him.
 
gsx1138
gsx1138 14 years ago

I'm going to be an ass here. I don't feel sorry for them any more than I felt sorry for those two women in Afghanistan who were kidnapped for trying to convert muslims to christianity. You are making a concience choice to go into a dangerous place and tell people that their God is false. The only reason it worked back in the old days was because missionaries had military backing and if the heathens didn't convert they just killed them. It is never ok to kill someone but they put themselves in that position even though it has been widely publicized that Abu-Syef and his cronies were on a kidnapping spree. The only sad part to me is that they died for some old men in Brooklyn.
 
gotcha
gotcha 14 years ago

a spokesman from the local branch here has spoken in the news regarding this matter, he said that they were not responsible for sending them there. well it seems that they went for 2 purposes one is to try earning money by selling avon stuff as well as do some preaching...but it's really sad and inhuman what the abu sayaff did to them..abu's usually kill hostages who don't have money to pay up ransom..hope the others will come home safe but these are cruel bandits
 

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Two Jehovahs Witnesses Beheaded!
by deceit 14 years ago 109 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Granny Linda
Granny Linda 14 years ago


Tragic indeed. So what's up with any religion sending their missionaries into such territory, eh. Oh, right! Gotta give them heathen's salvation. What bull%%%t! Yeah, it sicken's me too.
Granny
 
scumrat
scumrat 14 years ago

OH !!! HOW NICE WATCHTOWER... THOSE POOR WITNESSES WERE OUT TRYING TO GET THEIR PREACHING IN BEFORE THE TIME OF THE END. GEEZ YOU PUT SO MUCH PRESSURE ON THE RANK AND FILE TO SAVE THE WORLD !!! NOW WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? ASK OUR WORLDLY SATANIC GOVERNMENT TO STEP IN FOR JUSTICE? YOUR NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF BLOOD GUILTY HIPOCRITES !!!!!!!!
 
Granny Linda
Granny Linda 14 years ago


gsx;
I do not think you are an arse for what you wrote...
While we tire of murder, period, I'm tired of hearing how Christians of any sort go into another country in hopes of 'converting' the inhabitants with their interpetation of salvation. Good grief, I for one am tired of people allowed into my home land that want to push their agenda down my throat.
Sad and pathetic.
Granny
 
Sentinel
Sentinel 14 years ago


I had not heard of this. Thank you for the thread.
No one deserves such dispicable treatment. My heart goes out to all these poor people and what they have to endure. It does not matter to me if they are JW or not. That is barbaric!
We are so very fortunate to live in a free society.
Karen
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Dubs pretending to sell avon while really selling their religion. Such a silly little ruse, and all for a dumb religion. Sad. Sad for those who gave their lives for something worth even less than avon. Hopefully other dubs will learn and wake up, but i doubt it.
SS
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

These dubs went into an area under the guise of avon salesmen,so they could threaten the lives of anyone who dosen`t join their religion,and they got their heads chopped off..I don`t feel sorry for them at all..They went to preach death and destruction,and thats what they got....You reap what you sow...OUTLAW
 
spider
spider 14 years ago

No - noone deserves this kind of treatment. I can't imagine how horrible it must have been and what the women must still be going through.WE ALL were witnesses. WE ALL preached death and destruction. We didn't know any better. We thought we were doing what was right. So what if they hope that we are all going to die. Yes its sick and wrong but they are being mentally controlled just as we all were. Now we have our thinking abilities back and our compassion we have no excuse to be so insensitive as to say "they got what they deserve".
 
Xander
Xander 14 years ago


I hope the WTS is doing something to get these people and any other missionaries out of the country.
That's part of why I abhor the WTS so much - you KNOW they aren't.
Indeed, this is *exactly* the kind of thing they WANT to happen - it proves they are 'in the time of the end' and strengthens the faith of the members in 1st-world nations (where their memberships has been declining).
a spokesman from the local branch here has spoken in the news regarding this matter, he said that they were not responsible for sending them there.
No, of course not.
And the JWs don't ban their members from taking blood or serving in the military, either. Nor do they prohibit children from reporting abuse to the authorities.
 
Salud
Salud 14 years ago


Outlaw,
Hopefully they weren't any of your relatives.
Just to think many of us here were in the same situations like these witnesses just a few years ago. A sad situation indeed.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey Spider,your kinder to them than they would be to you.They want armagedon and that means killing you,your friends,family,and most of the worlds population.I doubt they lose any sleep worrying about your death.Still it`s nice you are a compasionate person..You can keep your head..LOL...OUTLAW
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey Salud,your right,I am happy it wasn`t one of my relatives.Under other circumstances it could just as well have been them..I would also feel real bad if one of them robbed a bank and was shot to death..The point is they put themselves in that predicament for what ever reason,and had to pay a very high price.They have no one to blame but themselves...OUTLAW
 
Salud
Salud 14 years ago


Outlaw,
How about putting some of the blame on Aby Sayyaf. Try telling Daniel Pearl's wife he got what he deserved for putting himself in a dangerous situation. Everyone has a right to believe what they want, but when you start beheading people and taking matters into your own hands that's when it crosses the line and you have gone too far, then those people are to blame. Just because I do not agree with the Witness theology or anyone else's for that matter does not give me the right to behead them.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey Salud,like spider,you seem like a nice person..I guess we will have to agree to disagree.....OUTLAW
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Well, at least they weren't easygoing. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=35115&site=3 According to wt, easygoing is worse than dead.
SS
 
Mary
Mary 14 years ago


I'm rather amazed and disturbed at some views here, that these Witnesses "got what they deserved". These people are controlled by the Governing Body's teachings, just like we all were at one time. In my teenage years, I was so positive that this was "the truth" that I would have gladly sacrificed my life for my beliefs if necessary.
The thing is, they weren't beheaded because they were Jehovah's Witnesses, they were beheaded because they weren't Muslim. These guys would have beheaded a Catholic, Protestant, Jew or Buddist just as quick.
 
spider
spider 14 years ago

Compassionate - if feeling sorry for people getting their heads chopped off is compassionate then yeah I guess. I'm just aware that only five short years ago, if I had been a little more spiritual, I could have been the one with my head cut off. How can I judge then and say they deserved it. You are right - they probably knew the score and they took the risks but then most of us believed and were willing to die for the cause. From their perspective and retrospectively my own, we believed we were doing the right thing and it would be worth the sacrifice. In reality now I know this to be a delusion and therefore tragic that they have wasted their lives and undergone this kind of pain for nothing. If you were ever a witness I fail to understand how you can be so detached. Do you think that you would have deserved this kind of treatment?
 
spider
spider 14 years ago

Sorry Outlaw - didn't mean to be ganging up on ya
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey spider,no problem.It`s good to have different points of veiw,and friends we can disscuss them with..Had I gone into a country where I knew JW`s were not allowed to preach,lied about my intentions about being there,was caught and beheaded.It wouldn`t be anybodys fault but my own,it go`s with the territory.You can find other people to blame,but the fact is,you knew what would happen if you broke the law and got caught.Now you gotta pay..Chop-chop...OUTLAW
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


Only a real jerk would think that a person that preaches their interpretation of the bible is deserving of a beheading.
I've read some extremely ridiculous remarks in this thread.
Some have inferred that they push their agenda down your throat. Last I checked, a firm "I'm not interested, get the hell away from me" stopped them. They no more push their agenda down your throat than a telemarketer does. I certainly wouldn't be happy about 2 telemarketers getting beheaded, no matter how much I hate them.
Others say the JWs were there to threaten the lives of anyone who doesn't join their religion and to preach death and destruction. Hmmm, I don't seem to recall any TMS parts talking about those kind of presentations. All I remember was them teaching how to hook people on what they thought was the key to eternal life and avoiding destruction.
Some even said that the WT WANT things like this to happen because it proves they are in the time of the end. Do you really believe that ANY JW WANTS this to happen? Maybe one of the GB is in his room right now thinking, I hope they behead the rest of them! Give me a break!
The only JWs that would want something like this to happen are the real jerk JWs, and a good portion of those became real jerk apostates and then say things like "they got what they deserved."
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 14 years ago


God, this is awful !
The barbarity of the action is just sickening. It is true that their lives are no more valuable than anyone else , but after spending so long in the org. I have to feel a sort of kinship with them because they were doing what we all did, misguidedly
If we had been invited to preach there, at one time I expect we would have done it .
The comments of a few of the members should make the writers ashamed.
 

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Topic Summary
muslim rebels in the southern philippines have beheaded two christian hostages, part of a group of jehovah's witnesses seized on tuesday.
the two severed heads were found by the philippines military on the remote southern island of jolo.
the army chief on jolo, brigadier general romeo tolentino, said that a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: "those who do not believe in allah will suffer the same fate.



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Two Jehovahs Witnesses Beheaded!
by deceit 14 years ago 109 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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amac
amac 14 years ago


OUTLAW said:
Now you gotta pay..Chop-chop
You are completely disgusting and insensitive!

..Had I gone into a country where I knew JW`s were not allowed to preach,lied about my intentions about being there,blah, blah,blah
You jerk. Read the article if you are going to comment on it! It says:
"The group came mainly from the city of Zamboanga, on the main southern Philippine island of Mindanao."
These were average JWs trying to talk to others about what they believe. They were killed by rebels who are now being hunted by their own government. Not exactly a case of getting what they deserved.
but the fact is,you knew what would happen if you broke the law and got caught.
Even if these JWs knew they might get beheaded, it does not make the action alright. These men are still sick, disgusting slime that should be punished for what they have done. I can't believe you are actually trying to shift the blame to the victims!!! What a jerk!
Edited by - amac on 22 August 2002 20:12:40
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 14 years ago

Add my name to those who abhor and condemn these acts of barbarism and murder. No one deserves to die simply because he is a Jehovah's Witness (preaching or not). I dislike JW teachings but I would never wish death upon them. If what these Muslims have done is alright, what is preventing any of you here who applaud their actions, from carrying out such activity here in the U.S.? God forbid!
 
Tinkerbell4125
Tinkerbell4125 14 years ago


OH Yeah, I'm sure the WTS will step right in there and help these poor witnesses!!!!! Yeap, I'm sure they're all over this one!!!!
Yeah Right!
 
Scully
Scully 14 years ago


amac writes:
>>>>"The group came mainly from the city of Zamboanga, on the main southern Philippine island of Mindanao."
These were average JWs trying to talk to others about what they believe. They were killed by rebels who are now being hunted by their own government. Not exactly a case of getting what they deserved. <<<<
The victims may have been Filipino nationals, but in the last 20 years or so, it's become more and more common for the WTS to use people just like that, bring them over to NYC and put them through Gilead school and send them back home as missionaries. In the 60's Nathan Knorr was known to have sent the Gilead graduates off with the instruction: "Go to your assignment and die there if necessary."
I recall being taught at meetings, when I was a child, how to go door-to-door during times of persecution, posing as sales people for other companies, while at the same time trying to preach.
I'm speculating that these people were probably doing just that, having been taught by "Mother" who knows full well that she's sending her children out into dangerous situations.
The WTS has a responsibility to these people and their families to do whatever it can to rescue these people and return them safely home.
Love, Scully
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Sculley
That would be theocratic war strategy that you are referring to. It doesn't work very well against al quaida strategy, i would say.
SS
 
Valis
Valis 14 years ago


I think Jehovah has truly spoken.....His members were off peddling some other cult paraphanalia instead of spreading the good news....*L*..Actually I think it very unfortunate that this happened and I feel for the family members who will now live extra good dubbie lives so they can be reunited w/thier loved ones in the "new system of things".
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
 
144001
144001 14 years ago

It is indeed unfortunate that such events occur. I hope the perpetrators suffer a worse fate. My thoughts are with the families of these individuals who were doing what they thought was god's work.
 
Xander
Xander 14 years ago



Do you really believe that ANY JW WANTS this to happen?
Do you really believe the GB does not WANT persecution of a few members in some distant 3rd world country?
Really?
C'mon now, what would they tell their flock if suddenly all the 'persecution' of them in the whole world suddenly stopped? "Oh, sh!t, guess we were wrong about the whole 'followers of Jesus being hated by the world' thing"???
They can't let persecution in 3rd world countries stop - because THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE THEY ARE BEING PERSECUTED. And, their religious teachings REQUIRE THAT THEY BE PERSECUTED.
I'm not saying the GB KNEW they would be beheaded. They sure as hell knew they would be 'persecuted' though - and that's why they sent them there.
Again: they NEED persecution to validate their religion. And the world as a whole keeps getting more civilized just as their teachings say we should be becoming more barbaric - hence, they need to STAGE (or, act in such a way as to cause to happen) 'persecution'.
Do you honestly think the WTS doesn't have the funds to buy the terrorists out and rescue their people? Of COURSE they do! But, they won't do that, since there wouldn't be any 'persecution' then.
 
Xander
Xander 14 years ago

(And if you think I used the word 'persecution' too much in the above post - you just wait until the first service meeting after this event!)
 
deceit
deceit 14 years ago


Truly barbaric!
These people are the pure meaning of EVIL
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


Xander -
First of all, would you please put a shirt on?
Second of all, you state:
Do you really believe the GB does not WANT persecution of a few members in some distant 3rd world country?
Yes, I believe that. I don't think any of them are so evil to WANT bad things to happen to the JWs just to hold their religion together. I believe that, although they may be wrong, the GB really believe all the things they say, so they expect persecution. And when it does happen they, no doubt, capitalize on it and use it as proof for their beliefs. But I don't think any of them WANT it to happen, expecially to the degree of putting JWs in bad situations just to create a little persecution.
and that's why they sent them there
According to the news article, all those people were from the Phillipines. They may or may not have been "sent" there in particular because many JWs work territories unassigned.
Do you honestly think the WTS doesn't have the funds to buy the terrorists out and rescue their people?
Possibly, but that is a whole other topic that I have no information or knowledge of. And I see that as having no relevance to my argument that anyone who does not think these beheadings are just absolutely terrible is a sick %#$@!
 
expatbrit
expatbrit 14 years ago


Yes, I believe that. I don't think any of them are so evil to WANT bad things to happen to the JWs just to hold their religion together.
I would submit that the Mexico / Malawi situation contradicts this.
Expatbrit
 
Xander
Xander 14 years ago



I don't think any of them are so evil to WANT bad things to happen to the JWs just to hold their religion together
!!!
Really?
You don't think they let hundreds, if not thousands, of children go on being molested because admitting to the scope of the problem might cause a fracture in their little religion?
You don't think they let people die who need a blood transfusion when they know full well that the bible's commands on the subject are ambiguous at best - and certainly it never says anywhere "You must never accept a blood transfusion even if your life depends on it".

the GB really believe all the things they say
I find that statement staggeringly odd.
You think the GB is just as duped as all the other members? (Which then begs the question - who IS at fault for all the conspiracies at foot?) I mean, do they all vote unanimously on all issues? No? You don't think THAT, at least, makes them wonder, do you? When members of the GB leave the organisation....were they just exceptions to the rule? All other GB members always see eye to eye and are certain they are god's mouthpiece on earth?
I find it a little hard to believe that THEY don't realize it's all a load of crap. I'm sure that knowledge is faily widespread in the 'upper echelons' of Brooklyn.
 
ISP
ISP 14 years ago


I don't buy the WTS line that they were there making a living. 6 of them went out to a remote area with 2 muslim guides....Note MUSLIM guides. If they were selling stuff....you would be better off selling it on your own rather than splitting it 6 ways and going to an outlying area. That was probably a cover for doing the preaching work. I bet they have some mags stashed somewhere in the vehicle...you know how it works.
They were either naive beyond belief or were working some territory under instruction from the WTS. My guess is the WTS. Dubs don't use their own initiative.
ISP
 
sf
sf 14 years ago


Wow, who knew TWO WITNESSES would cause such a ruckus. hahahahaha
OUTLAW:
These dubs went into an area under the guise of avon salesmen,so they could threaten the lives of anyone who dosen`t join their religion,and they got their heads chopped off..I don`t feel sorry for them at all..They went to preach death and destruction,and thats what they got....You reap what you sow...OUTLAW
I fully concur.
sKally, Hate The Liars AND The Lie Klass
 
Dia
Dia 14 years ago


Strangely - and sadly - the Philippines are VERY high up on the list of places where JWs are actually growing. I have no idea why.
The problem now is the four? remaining hostages.
I find it very sad that so many soldiers and other military people must now risk their lives to protect a group of people - who should never have been their in the first place - who have absolutely zero respect for those who will be risking their lives for their safety.
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


You don't think they let hundreds, if not thousands, of children go on being molested because admitting to the scope of the problem might cause a fracture in their little religion?
That's just a tad bit different than saying "They want the kids to get molested so that blah blah blah"
The rest of this argument is silly as it is only speculation as to what drives the men in the GB and what their motives are. For either of us to come to a conclusion without acknowledging that we very well may be wrong is ridiculous. But to me, this is all besides the point. This thread was about the poor people who died in the Phillipines. I was arguing the fact that some decided to shift the argument to try and place blame on the WT for these deaths. That is ridiculous. These people were killed by some demented religous fanatics that make the WT look like angels. I don't care if the JWs were yelling heresy in the streets, they certainly did not deserve the death they were given.
Some apostates are so consumed with bitterness and hatred that they cannot see things without their thoughts being tainted by these emotions.
ISP -

I don't buy the WTS line that they were there making a living. 6 of them went out to a remote area with 2 muslim guides....Note MUSLIM guides.
How do you explain the fact that they were with Muslim guides as supportive evidence that they weren't earning money selling avon? If anything I would say the complete opposite of your suggestion since I can't imagine 2 Muslim guides taking a group out into the field ministry to show them around the Abu Sayyaf's neighborhood.
I don't doubt they did have WT and Awakes, many witnesses carry them wherever they go hoping to informal witness. I think the point of the official statement was that they were not their on official WT business or sent specifically to that area by the WT.
Dubs don't use their own initiative.
Just a little bit of a generalization there.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 14 years ago


Sf fully concurs with Outlaw who stated that "They went to preach death and destruction, and that's what they got...you reap what you sow."
Where you ever Jehovah's Witnesses? Did you ever preach about Armageddon? Do you think your life will end violently? If not, why not?
 
Ella
Ella 14 years ago

What's sick is you're looked "down on" if you don't go door to door, so you go! Your're told Jehovah will take care of HIS people and you hear all the experiences that prove it, right??? But funny when the twin towers fell, the reports from people in Bethel themselves was, they locked the door on the people, not letting anyone in. What kind of people hide behind locked doors in complete safety, but send innocent, unknowing people, with false hopes, out into such violent areas??? Sick people, and they only apparantly look out for their own FAT BUTTS!!!
 
Dia
Dia 14 years ago


The ironic thing is that Allah is the same God as we all know Him.
He is the God of Abraham, the God of the Old Testament, God the Father, of most Christian religions.
JWs, with their lack of seeing a real difference with the coming of Christ and their ever interest in SOME things in the Old Testament, probably come closer to speaking of 'Allah' than many faiths.
Small exception, of course, being that they worship the WTS more than any God they ever knew.
 

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Topic Summary
muslim rebels in the southern philippines have beheaded two christian hostages, part of a group of jehovah's witnesses seized on tuesday.
the two severed heads were found by the philippines military on the remote southern island of jolo.
the army chief on jolo, brigadier general romeo tolentino, said that a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: "those who do not believe in allah will suffer the same fate.



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Two Jehovahs Witnesses Beheaded!
by deceit 14 years ago 109 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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The Alchemist
The Alchemist 14 years ago

I can just hear the spin on this; "First it is that lying apostate Bowen and now our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and killed. Satan and his followers are mounting their attack! Time to stage a counter protest march next month!" Feelings that effect.
 
jst_me
jst_me 14 years ago


Try telling Daniel Pearl's wife he got what he deserved for putting himself in a dangerous situation.

This is not the same situation. This situation is more similar to the Christians who were held hostage for a year or so, and the husband died. They were part of a religious movement out of south florida whose mission is to Christianize the Indigenous peoples of the world that the Catholics missed. They are hated by traditionalists in the various countries that they set up camp because they insist that Christian, Western ways are the best ways to live, and convice people to give up traditional ways of life, dress, eating, worshipping, thinking.
So, while the acts seem heinous, lets remember that what these preaching groups do is destroy traditional indigenous societies, and those effects are much more devestating than two deaths.
Additionally, the only reports I have read are from Western media whose mission still seems to blame all of the worlds badness on Al Quida. We all (here...xjws) can sense that there is much more to this story...it does not add up at all. So really, what can we believe??
 
garybuss
garybuss 14 years ago



All so sad. The poor Witnesses! Don't go in service and they face the fear of the threat that Jehovah will kill them. Do go in service and they face the real threat they will be killed by terrorists. That's my definition of a double bind.
I guess I seriously doubt they were all out there selling chemicals but if they were or not, it is still a shame and a terrible crime. I wish the survivors a safe return and I hope those responsible for this crime are punished properly.
My regrets to the friends and families of the victims.
 gb



 
Pork Chop
Pork Chop 14 years ago

What a revealing thread.
 
deddaisy
deddaisy 14 years ago


men dying selling cosmetics to Muslims.........
this is almost as assinine as children dying in 2002 over loss of blood......
 
ISP
ISP 14 years ago



ISP -

I don't buy the WTS line that they were there making a living. 6 of them went out to a remote area with 2 muslim guides....Note MUSLIM guides.
How do you explain the fact that they were with Muslim guides as supportive evidence that they weren't earning money selling avon? If anything I would say the complete opposite of your suggestion since I can't imagine 2 Muslim guides taking a group out into the field ministry to show them around the Abu Sayyaf's neighborhood.
I don't doubt they did have WT and Awakes, many witnesses carry them wherever they go hoping to informal witness. I think the point of the official statement was that they were not their on official WT business or sent specifically to that area by the WT.
Dubs don't use their own initiative.
Just a little bit of a generalization there.
Amac..........the muslim guides were to show them the area and be an interface. The official statement was on the lines of...'We have not sent any missionaries there'.....true no doubt...but doubletalk. They were not missionaries. They had not graduated Gilead.
Dubs wouldn't use there own initiative in these circumstances. It would be 'untheocratic'. No generalisation.
ISP
 
Dia
Dia 14 years ago


But the Avon Corporation says they weren't working for them either.
'Oh what a tangled web we weave....'
 
Dia
Dia 14 years ago

Ella - where is the story about the twin towers?
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey Amac,I can see from your post and other posts on other threads.You don`t think people should be responsible for their own actions and you like to tell people how life works.Not a good combination..I hope you were never put into a position to watch over peoples lives..It`s people with an attitude like yours that get themsevles killed..It`s people with an attitude like yours that sent those dubs to their death...OUTLAW
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


Jst_me -
So, while the acts seem heinous, lets remember that what these preaching groups do is destroy traditional indigenous societies, and those effects are much more devestating than two deaths.
Yes, but those effects aren't brought about by force such as these deaths were. Unless these religous fanatics are forcing people to follow them they do not deserve anything more than being exposed and then ignored. These actions certainly don't match beheading people for not following your belief.
ISP -
Dubs wouldn't use there own initiative in these circumstances. It would be 'untheocratic'. No generalisation.
Unless I am misunderstanding you, I disagree. I know many JWs that have even moved to other countries to serve where the need was greater without official assignment. Many years ago, my wife and I were even set up to go serve on a remote island without official sanction until some unrelated circumstances changed our plans. In fact, I knew more people that served in areas without being "sent" there than people who were official missionaries.
Ella -
But funny when the twin towers fell, the reports from people in Bethel themselves was, they locked the door on the people, not letting anyone in. What kind of people hide behind locked doors in complete safety, but send innocent, unknowing people, with false hopes, out into such violent areas???
I have heard others on this site say that, but then again I have heard reports from JWs saying the exact opposite. I have not seen any news or substantiated reports on this anywhere else. Do you have proof of this or were you a witness of this or are you just repeating unverified stories that you have heard?
And Last and definitely least OUTLAW,
You are an idiot and your font is too large. Your sad attempt to shift the blame for this horrible event to the JWs and the WT is evidence that you are consumed with your hatred for them. You should consider seeing a therapist to get over it and move on with your life. Your shift of blame is akin to blaming the parents and children who get killed by drunk drivers for putting themselves in a situation where they knew that might happen. It's not the drunk driver's fault is it? It's the stinking parents and the stupid kids....they knew when they got in that car and hit the freeway that eventually they would be in the vicinity of a drunk driver! They deserve what they got....crash, crash.
I imagine that when you were a witness, you were one of those jerk witnesses that I never liked, and now you have simply evolved into a jerk apostate. Jerk.
 
jst_me
jst_me 14 years ago


amac-
Yes, but those effects aren't brought about by force such as these deaths were. Unless these religous fanatics are forcing people to follow them they do not deserve anything more than being exposed and then ignored. These actions certainly don't match beheading people for not following your belief.
My point is that they were preaching in an area that looks upon proselytyzing as an act of war upon their traditional governments. They were not beheaded for "not following beliefs", but for insisting on engaging in an activity that has 400 years of evidence showing that it leads to the overthrow of traditional governments. I suggest that they were viewed as invaders, and that is why they were executed.
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


They were not beheaded for "not following beliefs",
The news reports said the following:
"a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: 'Those who do not believe in Allah will suffer the same fate.'"
at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2208898.stm
and
"Tolentino said notes were attached to the remains referring to 'infidels' and spoke of a holy war, or 'jihad.'"
at http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020822/ap_on_re_as/philippines_hostages_7
According to these, they were beheaded for "not following beliefs."
I understand your point of them basically being where they shouldn't have been, and I agree to a certain extent. However, the crime of beheading these two people far outweighs the JWs bad decision of where to preach (or sell avon, whichever they were doing.)
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,I see you got your panties in a knot,LOL..I`m an idiot and my font is too big?Thats quite a rebutal..What do`s a drunk driver killing parents and children have to do with dubs lying to authorities so they can get into a country to preach?You have a hard time staying on topic eh?I guess it`s easier to change the subject than to address the topic at hand.Oh yeah,I`m not an apostate.Is there anthing else you don`t know about,me that you would like to tell me?..Your not that bright are you?..LOL...OUTLAW
 
Dia
Dia 14 years ago


For the record, they never got out of the minvan.
Surely only their closest friends and relatives knew what they were up to out there.
 
Xander
Xander 14 years ago



they never got out of the minvan.
Really?
They just got in their little cargroup and drove straight to the area they were attacked?
Don't you think it was more likely 'they never got out of their minivan' at the particular point they were attacked - but had actually gotten out several times previously to do their work?
And I agree w/ the poster who complained about the media blaming every violent - sorry 'terrorist' - act on Al-Queda. Just because someone is a Muslim extremist does NOT make them de facto Al-Queda members.
 
amac
amac 14 years ago




dubs lying to authorities so they can get into a country to preach?
Have you not been reading the posts in this thread or the news articles you continue to comment about? The JWs were from the Phillipines. They weren't from another country. But if they were, how on earth do you know they lied to the authorities? If they did lie, what in the world does that have to do with the fact that some religous freak chopped their heads off for being a different religion?!?!
I guess it`s easier to change the subject than to address the topic at hand.

I don't know, maybe you need to take an adult education class on reading and comprehension because every single post I have made on this thread have been about the same topic of JWs that were beheaded in the Phillipines.
Is there anthing else you don`t know about,me that you would like to tell me?
Again, you are lacking a tad bit of comprehension. I prefaced the statement with "I imagine..." which denotes that I was imagining it, therefore it wasn't a stated fact. But for the sake of clarity let me rephrase the sentence. I imagine that if you were ever a witness, you were a jerk witness and now you have simply evolved into a jerk.
Your not that bright are you?..
Obviously not as bright as you, with your stellar spelling and grammar.
P.S. The word would be "You're."
Edited by - amac on 23 August 2002 12:42:59
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,nice cut and paste job,your almost as good as friday,and about as smart..Lots of talk about comprehension and my ability to spell,but not much else..How do I know Dubs posing as avon salesmen were lying?..Your question pretty much answers itself dumbass..LOL...OUTLAW
 
144001
144001 14 years ago


Folks,
Blaming the GB, the WTS, the US government, Avon, the decedents, other posters on JW.com, etc., for the horrific deaths that these two Witnesses experienced won't bring them back, won't bring peace to their families, and won't reflect positively on the apostate community. These folks were either trying to earn a living or trying to follow their faith or both. In my opinion, they were brave people who paid a severe price for their beliefs. The focus of the negative energy ought to be on the barbaric cowards that committed this terrorist act. I hope they suffer a fate that is exponentially more painful than the one they inflicted on those Jehovah's Witnesses.
Where is the condemnation of this cowardly, barbaric act from the Islamic world? It's time our government took a closer look at the Islamic institutions in this country who are encouraging and supporting terrorism.
Edited by - 144001 on 23 August 2002 13:4:24
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey Kenneson,I just read your post .I was raised a dub..I was taught from a baby that my life might end violently in my service to WBTS,and I was to mindlessly accept this.Your always taught to expect the worst before armagedon comes.I personaly never believed this.Why? I was too young to totaly grasp that idea,and I live in a fairly peaceful country...OUTLAW
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


OUTLAW -
Your arguments are as empty as your head. Since you have a hard time comprehending...in other words, your posts contain no arguments, just shifting insults.
You have yet to defend your insensitive and moronic statements. I guess you would prefer a world full of murdering Islamic Abu Sayyaf's then JWs going door to door. Again, a little too consumed with bitterness. Get over it. See a therapist.
 

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Topic Summary
muslim rebels in the southern philippines have beheaded two christian hostages, part of a group of jehovah's witnesses seized on tuesday.
the two severed heads were found by the philippines military on the remote southern island of jolo.
the army chief on jolo, brigadier general romeo tolentino, said that a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: "those who do not believe in allah will suffer the same fate.



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Two Jehovahs Witnesses Beheaded!
by deceit 14 years ago 109 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


hey, bigMACattack, it never takes you very long to stoop to name-calling and verbal abuse does it. These people are abuse survivors, and they have a right to post their personal feelings on this board without being subjected to YOUR version of keyboard diarhea.
Your feelings about the Watchtower are accepted here, you can at least do the same for the others.The only person with reading comprehension around here is YOU. YOU express religious intolerance to the nth degree. YOU claim to be not a Watchtowerite anymore, I would NEVER be able to tell from degregation you dish out to ANYONE who expresses their feelings on this board.
Simon keeps telling ME to dispense with the personal attacks; because you seem such a lame-brain is the only reason I don't complain about you. Name-calling is not 'discussion' and personal attacks aren't 'disseminating useful information'.
You want to whine that I'm 'stalking' you go right ahead. It irritates the crap out of me that Simon lets you get away with this crap, and towards that end I try to stay out of your way and not cause a problem.
If you are not an abuse survivor, then you can't understand the pain these people feel and that is behind their expressions of anger. If that be the case...then F**K OFF and talk about things you know about (which isn't much it seems) or ask questions.
I'LL BE BACK
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,my arguements haven`t shifted.Your the guy talking about drunk drivers on a thread about beheaded dubs.It`s hard for you to keep up eh?Exactly what bitterness am I consumed with?Why would I want a world full of people willing to kill or support an organization willing to kill in the name of their religion? I may as well go back to the dubs with that line of reasoning.Theres nothing to defend,dubs were in a country doing what they knew they could be punished for,and they paid a high price for it..You don`t like opinions other than your own.Thats too bad,because no one here cares..Play elder someplace else Dipshit.. OUTLAW
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


Dungbeetle -
How many times do I have to ask you to please stop stalking me? I have no interest in your continued desire for a personal flame war. If you are not going to post on the topic of the thread, then there is no reason to post.
Don't be an ass.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,dungbeetle is free to post where ever she likes,and say what she wants.This is not your thread and your not an elder here little man...OUTLAW
 
amac
amac 14 years ago




Your the guy talking about drunk drivers on a thread about beheaded dubs.It`s hard for you to keep up eh?
I'm sorry you didn't understand the analogy, I should have figured that. It has to do with your desire to place the blame of these beheadings on the JWs for being in the wrong place and preaching to people. If you can't see the correlation to the analogy, then it is really not worth the time to try to explain it.
Exactly what bitterness am I consumed with?

Again, I don't have the time or desire to break the obvious down for you.
Why would I want a world full of people willing to kill or support an organization willing to kill in the name of their religion?
I don't know, only you can answer that. But when this thread was started about the men who kill people in the name of religion, you said the people deserved it for going into a dangerous area where these men were. Do I need to quote your post?
Edited by - amac on 23 August 2002 14:22:46
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


Hey amac,dungbeetle is free to post where ever she likes,and say what she wants.This is not your thread and your not an elder here little man...OUTLAW
What are you two, a tag team? I can see that she is free to post wherever she likes because she keeps doing it (following me around and attacking me on threads.) I am also free to continually ask her to stop. Now butt out and quit trying to play elder, you're (notice the apostrophe and the letter E) not an elder her big man.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,yeah that would be interesting.Show me where I said the dubs "deserved" to be beheaded.Good luck dipshit...OUTLAW
 
sf
sf 14 years ago


Kenneson asks:
"Where you ever Jehovah's Witnesses?"
Yes.
"Did you ever preach about Armageddon?"
Yes.
"Do you think your life will end violently?"
Very possible, yet cannot give definite answer.
sKally, Still NOT a rocket scientist, klass
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


OUTLAW SAID:

I don`t feel sorry for them at all..They went to preach death and destruction,and thats what they got....You reap what you sow...
and
They have no one to blame but themselves.
and
Now you gotta pay..Chop-chop...
Is that enough?
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


let's do this the right way, amac:
<These dubs went into an area under the guise of avon salesmen,so they could threaten the lives of anyone who dosen`t join their religion,and they got their heads chopped off..I don`t feel sorry for them at all..They went to preach death and destruction,and thats what they got....You reap what you sow...OUTLAW

<Hey Salud,your right,I am happy it wasn`t one of my relatives.Under other circumstances it could just as well have been them..I would also feel real bad if one of them robbed a bank and was shot to death..The point is they put themselves in that predicament for what ever reason,and had to pay a very high price.They have no one to blame but themselves...OUTLAW
<Hey Salud,like spider,you seem like a nice person..I guess we will have to agree to disagree.....OUTLAW

problem.It`s good to have different points of veiw,and friends we can disscuss them with..Had I gone into a country where I knew JW`s were not allowed to preach,lied about my intentions about being there,was caught and beheaded.It wouldn`t be anybodys fault but my own,it go`s with the territory.You can find other people to blame,but the fact is,you knew what would happen if you broke the law and got caught.Now you gotta pay..Chop-chop...OUTLAW>

So, no nowhwere did Outlaw say they DESERVED beheading or death.....you are slandering OUTLAW and doing a really bad job of it too. If you have to LIE to make your point YOU are the one with the PROBLEM.

Edited by - dungbeetle on 23 August 2002 14:40:4
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago


No amac it`s not enough..Where did I say the dubs "deserved" to be beheaded?..It`s a simple enough question..Thanks for putting my post up,nowhere do`s it say they "deserved" to be beheaded..True,they did reap what they sowed,but did they deserve to die?..Personally I don`t think so,but I don`t feel sorry for them,they knew what they were doing..Try to keep up..I`ll repeat it for you as you seem to have a short attention span..Where did I say the dubs "deserved" to be beheaded?..OUTLAW
Edited by - OUTLAW on 23 August 2002 14:57:54
 
144001
144001 14 years ago


Dung,

So, no nowhwere did Outlaw say they DESERVED beheading or death.....you are slandering OUTLAW and doing a really bad job of it too. If you have to LIE to make your point YOU are the one with the PROBLEM. - - Dungbeetle
While Outlaw did not explicitly state that the JWs who are the subject of this thread deserved beheading or death, he/she (no offense outlaw - just don't want to make a mistake about your gender) did so implicitly, as is evident in the quotes you provided (e.g., "You reap what you sow."). As for your claims that amac "slandered OUTLAW and [did] a really bad job of it too," you're wrong on that point. Assuming the statements of amac were indeed defamatory and legally actionable, it would be libel, not slander. You are right, however, that he "did a bad job of it too," since the statements he made did not amount to slander or libel.
OUTLAW:
I disagree with you as to your stance on this issue (although I think I understand where you're coming from), but overall, I think you're right most of the time and I enjoy reading your posts. Keep 'em coming!
amac:
I never finished with our abortion debate; it got kind of boring and I had to move on. No hard feelings?
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago


Hey 144001,I also enjoy your posts.We may not agree on this issue but thats alright.I believe you to be a good person who wants the best for others..For the record I`m a he,LOL...OUTLAW
Edited by - OUTLAW on 23 August 2002 15:24:58
 
144001
144001 14 years ago


OUTLAW,
Thanks - if we agreed on everything, we'd be dubs! LOL
I also think you're a good person - you've certainly proven that in the past, and, for the record, I am also a "he."
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


NO....
<you said  the people deserved it for going into a dangerous area where these men were. Do I need to quote your post?
Can't you people READ....outlaw wasn't accused of 'intimating' he was accused of SAYING..OKAY?
well, he didn't say it and he SAID that's not what he meant, soyou are wrong every which way around.
and you're right...libel is written and slander is spoken. So Outlaw has been libeled.
In the Watchtower world, it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


OUTLAW and OUTLAW's SIDEKICK(Dungbeetle) -
So sue me. I don't have time to argue semantics with you two. It is obvious who Outlaw blames for this horrible incident.
144001,
No hard feelings at all. I realize there is always a flipside of the coin opinion and I understand people are passionate about it. I think we are in agreement on this thread though.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,do`s that mean you can`t provide the post where I said the dubs "deserved" to be beheaded?.. I guess it`s hard to come up with a post that never existed..Dipshit!..LOL...OUTLAW
 
144001
144001 14 years ago


Dung,
I disagree with your analysis of the legal merits of the libel/slander accusation, but I don't want to bore everyone with a debate on this issue. I'm just writing to let you know that I also like reading many of your posts as well, and enjoy your presence on this board.
Have a good one!
 
amac
amac 14 years ago


Then what did you mean when you said "you reap what you sow" in reference to the victims? And "now you gotta pay?"
I tell you what, rather than argue semantics with you two linguistic geniuses, I'll rephrase my post...
But when this thread was started about the men who kill people in the name of religion, you said about the victims "I don`t feel sorry for them at all..They went to preach death and destruction,and thats what they got....You reap what you sow."
This is getting very boring now. You can have the last word, because no matter what you say, you are obviously a jerk. I'm done with this thread.
Edited by - amac on 23 August 2002 16:59:23
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey amac,still no proof on the statement made by you,that I said The dubs "deserved" to be beheaded.Your the guy that made a big fuss,and now you can`t back your mouth up.I`m sure your too big of a jam tart to apologize,so we`ll just put you in the cyber bakery with the other jam tarts..LOL...OUTLAW
 

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Topic Summary
muslim rebels in the southern philippines have beheaded two christian hostages, part of a group of jehovah's witnesses seized on tuesday.
the two severed heads were found by the philippines military on the remote southern island of jolo.
the army chief on jolo, brigadier general romeo tolentino, said that a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: "those who do not believe in allah will suffer the same fate.



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Two Jehovahs Witnesses Beheaded!
by deceit 14 years ago 109 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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deddaisy
deddaisy 14 years ago


If they did lie, what in the world does that have to do with the fact that some religous freak chopped their heads off for being a different religion?!?!
only the loving Jehovah, according to JWs, will do that..........................
 
Dia
Dia 14 years ago


It's a shame that this conversation has deteriorated so badly.
The fact is, we DON'T KNOW what happened. It is very likely it will come out at a later time, except to the degree that the WT convinces people involved to not speak out about it, except as they direct them to
.
 
Scully
Scully 14 years ago


I was hoping the discussion here would be about the WTS's share of culpability in this tragedy. I should have guessed by the volume of posts that it had turned into the "usual". LOL *sigh* Love ya, OUTLAW!
Anyways, let's turn the attention to how the WTS contributed to the untimely demise of these two JW men, and the four women's continued hostage situation.
Does the WTS expect all of its members to comply with the notion that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in ALL THE INHABITED EARTH and then the end will come"?
YES. And what about the "Kingdom Melodies" that go.... "Fear not those who kill the body...... but cannot destroy the soul [huh?? the soul isn't the person now? sorry, off topic].... to the end continue faithful..... I will bring you to your goal" and "We're Jehovah's Witnesses, We speak out in Fearlessness"....
Does the WTS assure its members engaged in this preaching work that they will have divine protection when doing so?
YES. All you have to do is read Yearbook experiences - which generally are from lands where the preaching work is banned or restricted - most of them claim divine protection/intervention for the good outcomes that are seen. Seldom are cases like this even mentioned. Translation: Jehovah blesses the preaching work, nothing bad will happen to you if you are out in service.
There are lots of Urban Legends out there among JWs too - the Avon lady (how ironic) shows up at house X and is raped and murdered; the next JW that shows up at house X is spared because the householder claims to have seen huge towering males accompanying her. The JW was alone. Translation: Angelic protection for those in the preaching work. [If I recall correctly, this one was even published in the magazines.]
Does the WTS encourage its members to employ "Theocratic War Strategy" when engaged in the preaching work in lands where the work is banned or restricted?
YES.
*** Watchtower 1957 May 1 pp.285-286 Use Theocratic War Strategy ***
>>>A WITNESS of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.
In this she had good Scriptural precedent. Did not Rahab hide the Israelite spies by both action and word? Did not Abraham, Isaac, David and others likewise hide the truth at times when faced with a hostile enemy? They certainly did, and never do we read a word of censure for their doing so. Rather, we read of their being termed exemplary servants of Jehovah. Their actions were in line with Jesus' wise counsel: "Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves."-Matt. 10:16, NW.<<<
Now, having said that, while I place the blame squarely on the guerillas who committed the kidnapping and subsequent murders for their actions, it was extremely foolish of those JWs to go into that territory, knowing that it was risky and probably dangerous to do so. Proselytizing is strictly forbidden. They knew that. The fact that they had Muslim guides suggests that they already were aware of the danger. I am speculating that the Muslim couple who acted as their guides double-crossed them. In some places, and this may or may not have happened here, loyalty to the factions by turning in 'infidels' is rewarded with a bounty.
Had these people not been brainwashed dubs who believe that it is imperative to 'preach this good news of the kingdom in ALL the inhabited earth' and that in doing so in hostile situations they should use "theocratic war strategy" and they will receive "divine protection", do you suppose they would be selling cosmetics and herbal products in hostile territory?? If they had merely been selling cosmetics and herbal products, would they have been branded as "infidels"??
I don't see how the WTS can escape responsibility for encouraging these folks to put themselves in harm's way. They use the analogy of their preaching work being like going into a burning building to save innocent lives. They proclaim divine protection will come to those who engage in the preaching work. Obviously "Jehovah" was too busy making sure the GB were oriented to person, place and time and had enough Depends for the week to watch over these six individuals who will have to live with the consequences of their obedience to the WTS.
How many members of the GB would have put themselves in that situation?? Considering that none of them will even go door-to-door in their own neighbourhood in Brooklyn.... my best guess is that NONE OF THEM WOULD.
Love, Scully
Edited by - Scully on 24 August 2002 9:23:4
 
deddaisy
deddaisy 14 years ago


I think some of us get more frustrated with Witnesses when something as horrifying as this happens. we all know the WTS is moronic, but what will it take before its members, and our families, figure that out......
why is it that people can see how barbaric it is when people are slaughtered because they follow a different religion, yet they can't see the barbarity of the WTS's teaching that this is what God plans to do at Armageddon ?

Edited by - deddaisy on 25 August 2002 4:25:36
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 14 years ago


O M G

This is the first I have heard of this. I haven't watched ANY T.V. or listened to any news since Wednesday Morning.
This is sooo sad.

Has anyone heard of any press release from the WTS regarding this yet.
I did not read the entire thread YET. But I will go back through it.
Plum


A child holds an anti-U.S. placard to protest the return of U.S. troops for military exercises during a rally near the U.S. Embassy in Manila Friday, Aug. 23, 2002. The protesters fear that the recent kidnapping of six people and the subsequent beheading of the two of them will pave the way for the holding of the joint military exercise in the troubled island of Jolo in southern Philippines. Friday's protest coincided with the start of the Philippine revolution in 1896 where revolutionaries tear their ID's in defiance of the Spanish rulers. (AP Photo/Bullit Marquez)
Edited by - plmkrzy on 25 August 2002 5:28:28
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 14 years ago

As of monday aug 26, NO mention of it on jw-media.org; how can they ignore this?
Maybe they are holding back for fear that discussing the witness presence in philippines will make it worse for jws there, who knows; it sure is unusual that they won't even mention it.
 
Mulan
Mulan 14 years ago


I didn't read this whole thread, so will ask a question.
I was gone from Thursday through Sunday, and watched CNN in the evenings, after sessions at my business convention. No mention was made of this. But Wednesday night I saw it on CNN several times.
Is there any news about the women? Are they still captive?
 
mevirginia
mevirginia 14 years ago

I would not be supprised if 80 or 90% of the 6,000,000 witnesses have no knowledge of this.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 14 years ago

Hey mevirginia,WBTS loves stuff like this..Dead dubs sell magazines,sold magazines =money,cold hard cash$$$$$$$$,and brings the herd together,with a dooms day mentality..Who will be the next martyr?Who wants to show their true intentions as to how they will serve god?Who is willing to die?..WBTS will work the crowd good..No doubt it will be officially announced:Those JW`s died for their religion and their god,wouldn`t you do the same?..Translation:Get out there and sell magazines,if need be,die for your religion.We need the cash............Those people died for nothing other than other peoples greed,and or ability to look the other way when they see something wrong,going on within the WBTS ...OUTLAW
 
drahcir yarrum
drahcir yarrum 14 years ago


OUTLAW:
You are right, these atrocities fire up the troops of loyal publishers. I remember as a kid hearing a talk about how Milton Henshel was nearly beaten to death with a rifle butt somewhere in Africa. It gave the congregation the "warm fuzzies" to know that they had a martyr. Of course the graphic descriptions of JW's in Malawi who had their feet nailed to the floor also provided a "team" rush. These poor souls who were beheaded will also provide much needed proof of the nearness of the "end".
Edited by - drahcir yarrum on 27 August 2002 23:32:16
 

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Topic Summary
muslim rebels in the southern philippines have beheaded two christian hostages, part of a group of jehovah's witnesses seized on tuesday.
the two severed heads were found by the philippines military on the remote southern island of jolo.
the army chief on jolo, brigadier general romeo tolentino, said that a note was attached to one of the heads, saying: "those who do not believe in allah will suffer the same fate.



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by Tenacious 5 months ago



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Muslims going door to door?
by RR 14 years ago 3 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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RR
RR 14 years ago


Found this on the net:
"Speaking with a British accent and dressed in traditional robes under a ragged blue overcoat, Udeen told NEWSWEEK he had converted to Islam eight years ago. “When I was a non-Muslim, the people I used to go to clubs with were all Muslims,” he says. After a trip to the local library, where he read an English translation of the Quran, Udeen’s life was transformed. “It changed my heart,” he recalled. “It just felt right inside.” After dropping out from university, Udeen got work as a Web designer and computer repairman in England. In 1996, he spent 40 days in the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan, preaching Islam as part of the Tablighi Jamaat, a global Muslim outreach program meant to develop ties and contacts among the faithful. “It’s like the Jehovah’s witnesses,” he says, “But you only knock on Muslim doors.”"
. http://www.msnbc.com/news/674788.asp
Great now we have talibans going door to door.
 
Dutchie
Dutchie 14 years ago


Hi RR: Its no secret that Christendom has long admired the fact that JWs were able to get their members to go from door to door spreading their message. Many of them have sought to emulate that practice. They know what Russell knew and that is that the cheapest, most effective way to advertise your message is to carry it from door to door. There is a direct correlation between the growth of the WBTS and the door to door work. That this means is effective can be attested to by any Amway or Fuller Brush salesman. However, I bet they are unaware of the hoops we have to jump through for the "privilege" of engaging in this door to door work, i.e., quotas, counting time, weekly sales meetings, buying literature, etc.


 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Sounds like a muslim community police going around, keeping their 'brothers' (other muslims) in line.
SS
 
RR
RR 14 years ago


Actually Dutchie, the door to door scene was Rutherford's idea, not Russell's.
Although there were 'Pioneers' in Russell's day, they were called colportuers, these were just a handful to get the ball rolling. The majority of Bible Students, didn't go door to door, they did however share their faith with others as opportunity allowed.
Rutherford took over and had everyone hawking his books.
 

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Testimony of a JW becoming a Muslim
by sf 14 years ago 3 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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sf
sf 14 years ago


< http://www.sharif.org.uk/priests.htm
Raphael - Former Jehovah's Witness minister
A forty-two-year-old Latino, Raphael, is a Los Angeles-based comic and lecturer. He was born in Texas where he attended his first Jehovah's Witness meeting at age six. He gave his first Bible sermon at eight, tended his own congregation at twenty, and was headed for a position of leadership among the 904,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in the United States. But he traded in his Bible for a Qur'an after having braved a visit to a local mosque.
On November 1, 1991, he embraced Islam, bringing to the Muslim community the organizational and speaking skills he developed among Jehovah's Witnesses. He speaks with the urgency of a new convert, but one who can make immigrant Muslims laugh at themselves.
He told his story mimicking a cast of characters.
I remember vividly being in a discussion where we were all sitting in my parents' living room and there were some other Jehovah's Witnesses there. They were talking about: "It's Armageddon! The time of the end! And Christ is coming! And you know the hailstones are going to be out here as big as cars! God is going to use all kinds of things to destroy this wicked system and remove the governments! And the Bible talks about the earth opening up! It's going to swallow whole city blocks!"
I'm scared to death! And then my mother turned around: "See what's going to happen to you if you don't get baptized, and if you don't do God's will? The earth is going to swallow you up, or one of these huge hailstones is going to hit you on the head [klonk], knock you out, and you will not exist ever again. I'll have to make another child."
I wasn't going to take a chance of being hit by one of those big hailstones. So I got baptized. And of course Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the sprinkling of the water. They submerge you completely, hold you there for a second, and then bring you back up.
I did that at the age of thirteen, September 7, 1963, in Pasadena, California, at the Rose Bowl. It was a big international assembly. We had 100,000 people. We drove all the way from Lubbock, Texas.
Eventually I started giving bigger talks - ten minutes in front of the congregation. And a circuit servant recommended me to give the hour lectures that are done on Sunday when they invite the general public. They usually reserved those [sermons] for the elders of the congregation.
[In an authoritarian voice:] "Sure he's young. But he can handle it. He's a good Christian boy. He has no vices, and he's obedient to his parents and seems to have pretty good Bible knowledge."
So at the age of sixteen I started giving hour lectures in front of whole congregations. I was assigned first to a group in Sweetwater, Texas, and then, eventually, in Brownfield, Texas, I got my first congregation. At age twenty, I had become what they call a pioneer minister.
Jehovah's Witnesses have a very sophisticated training program, and they also have kind of a quota system. You have to devote ten to twelve hours a month to door-to-door preaching. It's like sales management. IBM has nothing on these guys.
So when I became a pioneer minister, I devoted most of my full time to doing the door-to-door ministry. I had to do like 100 hours a month, and I had to have seven Bible studies. I started lecturing other congregations. I began to get a lot of responsibility, and I was accepted at a school in Brooklyn, New York, a very elite school that Jehovah's Witnesses have for the crème de la crème, the top one percent. But I didn't go.
A few things no longer made sense to me. For example, the quota system. It seemed like every time I wanted to turn a corner and get into another position of responsibility, I had to do these secular material things to prove my godliness. It's like if you meet your quotas this month, God loves you. If you don't meet your quotas next month, God doesn't love you. That didn't make very much sense. One month God loves me and one month He doesn't?
The other thing I started noticing is tunnel vision. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who are going to be saved in God's new order, nobody else, because all of them are practicing false religions. Well, I thought, Mother Teresa's a Catholic. That's our dire enemy. So I said, Wait a minute, Mother Teresa has spent her entire life doing things that Jesus said: take care of the poor, the sick, the orphans. But she's not going to have God's favor because she's a Catholic?
We criticized the Catholic Church because they had a man, a priest, to whom they had to confess. And we'd say, "You shouldn't have to go to a man to confess your sins! Your sin is against God!" And yet we went to a Body of Elders. You confessed your sins to them, and they put you on hold, and said [Elder as telephone operator:] "Hold on just a minute . . . What do you think, Lord? No? . . . Okay, I'm sorry, we tried our best but you're not repentant enough. Your sin is too big, so you either lose your fellowship in the church or you're going to be on probation."
If the sin is against God, shouldn't I directly go to God and beg for mercy?
Probably the nail that hit the coffin was that I noticed that they started reading their Bible less. Jehovah's Witnesses have books for everything that are put out by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The only people on the entire planet who know how to interpret Bible Scripture correctly are that group of men, that committee in Brooklyn, who tell Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide how to dress, how to talk, what to say, what not to say, how to apply Scripture and what the future is going to be like. God told them, so they can tell us. I appreciated the books. But if the Bible is the book of knowledge and if it's God's instructions, well, shouldn't we get our answers out of the Bible? Paul himself said find out for yourself what is a true and acceptable word of God. Don't let men tickle your ears.
I started saying, "Don't worry so much about what the Watchtower says - read the Bible for yourself." Ears started to prick up.
[Old Southerner's drawl:] "I think we got us an apostate here, Judge. Yup. I think this old boy's one taco short of something."
Even my father said, "You better watch it, young man, that's the demons talking right there. That's the demons trying to get in and cause division."
I said, "Dad, it's not the demons. People don't need to read so much of these other publications. They can find their answers with prayer and in the Bible."
Spiritually I no longer felt at ease. So in 1979, knowing that I could not make headway, I left, disgruntled and with a bad taste in my mouth, because all my life I had put my soul, my heart, my mind into the church. That was the problem. I didn't put it in God. I put it in a man-made organization.
I can't go to other religions. As a Jehovah's Witness, I had been trained, through the Scriptures, to show that they are all wrong. That idolatry is bad. Trinity doesn't exist.
I'm like a man without a religion. I was not a man without a God. But where could I go?
In 1985, I decided to come to Los Angeles and get on the Johnny Carson show and make my mark as a great comedian and actor. I have always felt like I was born for something. I didn't know whether it was going to be finding the cure to cancer or becoming an actor. I kept praying and it got frustrating after a while.
So I just went to the Catholic church close to my house, and I tried it. I remember on Ash Wednesday I had that ash cross on my forehead. I was trying anything I could. I went for about two or three months, and I just couldn't do it anymore, man. It was:
Stand up. Sit down.
Stand up. Sit down.
Okay, stick your tongue out.
You got a lot of exercise. I think I lost about five pounds. But that's about it. So now I'm more lost than ever.
But it never passed through my mind that there is not a Creator. I have His phone number, but the line's always busy. I'm doing my little movie shots. A film called Deadly Intent. A telephone commercial in Chicago. An Exxon commercial. A couple of bank commercials. In the meantime I'm doing construction work on the side.
We're working on this mall. It's the holiday season, and they put these extra booths in the hallways. There was a gal at one, and we had to pass right in front of her. I'd say, "Good morning, how are you?" If she said anything, it was "Hi." And that was it.
Finally, I said, "Miss, you never say anything. I just wanted to apologize if there was something I said wrong."
She said, "No, you see, I'm a Muslim."
"You're what?"
"I'm a Muslim, and Muslim women, we don't talk to men unless we have something specific to talk about; otherwise we don't have anything to do with men."
"Ohhhhh. Muslim."
She said, "Yes, we practice the religion of Islam."
"Islam - how do you spell that?"
"I-s-l-a-m."
At the time, I knew that Muslims were all terrorists. She doesn't even have a beard. How could she possibly be Muslim?
"How did this religion get started?"
"Well, there was a prophet."
"A prophet?"
"Muhammad."
I started some research. But I just came from one religion. I had no intention of becoming Muslim.
The holidays are over. The booth moves. She's gone.
I continued to pray, and asked why my prayers weren't being answered. In November of 1991, I was going to bring my uncle Rockie home from the hospital. I started to empty his drawers to pack his stuff and there was a Gideon Bible. I said, God has answered my prayers. This Gideon Bible. (Of course, they put it in every hotel room.) This is a sign from God that He's ready to teach me. So I stole the Bible.
I went home and I started praying: O God, teach me to be a Christian. Don't teach me the Jehovah's Witness way. Don't teach me the Catholic way. Teach me Your way! You would not have made this Bible so hard that ordinary people sincere in prayer could not understand it.
I got all the way through the New Testament. I started the Old Testament. Well, eventually there's a part in the Bible about the prophets.
Bing!
I said, Wait a minute, that Muslim lady said they had a prophet. How come he's not in here?
I started thinking, Muslims - one billion in the world. Man, one out of every five people on the street theoretically could be a Muslim. And I thought: One billion people! C'mon now, Satan is good. But he's not that good.
So then I said, I'll read their book, the Qur'an, and I'll see what kind of pack of lies this thing is. It probably has an illustration on how to dissemble an AK-47. So I went to an Arabic bookstore.
They asked, "What can I help you with?"
"I'm looking for a Qur'an."
"Okay, we have some over here."
They had some very nice ones - thirty dollars, forty dollars."
"Look, I just want to read it, I don't want to become one, okay?"
"Okay, we have this little five-dollar paperback edition."
I went home, and started reading my Qur'an from the beginning, with Al-Fatihah. And I could not get my eyes off of it.
Hey, look at this. It talks about a Noah in here. We have Noah in our Bible too. Hey, it talks about Lot and Abraham. I can't believe it. I never knew Satan's name was Iblis. Hey, how about that.
When you get that picture on your TV set and it's got a little bit of static and you push that button [klop] - fine tune. That's exactly what happened with the Qur'an.
I went through the whole thing. So I said, Okay, I've done this, now what's the next thing you got to do? Well, you gotta go to their meeting place. I looked in the yellow pages, and I finally found it: Islamic Center of Southern California, on Vermont. I called and they said, "Come on Friday."
Now I really start getting nervous, `cause now I know I'm going to have to confront Habib and his AK-47.
I want people to understand what it's like for an American Christian coming into Islam. I'm kidding about the AK-47, but I don't know if these guys have daggers under their coats, you know. So I come up to the front, and sure enough, there's this six-foot-three, 240-pound brother, beard and everything, and I'm just in awe.
I walked up and said, "Excuse me, sir."
[Arabic accent:] "Go to the back!"
He thought I was already a brother.
I said, "Yessir, yessir" [meekly].
I didn't know what I was going back for, but I went back anyway. They had the tent and the rugs were out. I'm standing there, kind of shy, and people are sitting down listening to the lecture. And people are saying, Go ahead, brother, sit down. And I'm going, No, thanks, no, thanks, I'm just visiting.
So finally the lecture's over. They're all lined up for prayer and they go into sajdah. I was really taken aback.
It started making sense intellectually, in my muscles, in my bones, in my heart and my soul.
So prayers are over. I say, hey, who's going to recognize me? So I start to mingle like I'm one of the brothers, and I'm walking into the mosque and a brother says, "Assalaamu alaikum." And I thought, Did he say "salt and bacon"?
"Assalaamu alaikum."
There's another guy who said "salt and bacon" to me.
I didn't know what in the world they were saying, but they all smiled.
Before one of these guys noticed that I was not supposed to be there and took me to the torture chamber, or beheaded me, I wanted to see as much as I could. So eventually I went to the library, and there was a young Egyptian brother; his name was Omar. God sent him to me.
Omar comes up to me, and he says, "Excuse me. This is your first time here?" He has a real strong accent.
And I said, Yeah, it is.
"Oh, very good. You are Muslim?"
"No, I'm just reading a little."
"Oh, you are studying? This is your first visit to a mosque?"
"Yes."
"Come, let me show you around." And he grabs me by the hand, and I'm walking with another man - holding hands. I said, These Muslims are friendly.
So he shows me around.
"First of all, this is our prayer hall, and you take your shoes off right here."
"What are these things?"
"These are little cubicles. That's where you put your shoes."
"Why?"
"Well, because you're approaching the prayer area, and it's very holy. You don't go in there with your shoes on; it's kept real clean."
So he takes me to the men's room.
"And right here, this is where we do wudu."
"Voodoo! I didn't read anything about voodoo!"
"No, not voodoo. Wudu!"
"Okay, because I saw that stuff with the dolls and the pins, and I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment yet."
He says, "No, wudu, that's when we clean ourselves."
"Why do you do that?"
"Well, when you pray to God, you have to be clean, so we wash our hands and feet."
So I learned all these things. He let me go, and said, Come back again.
I went back and asked the librarian for a booklet on prayer, and I went home and practiced. I felt that if I was trying to do it right, God would accept it. I just continued to read and read and visit the mosque.
I had a commitment to go on a tour of the Midwest on a comedy circuit. Well, I took a prayer rug with me. I knew that I was supposed to pray at certain times, but there are certain places where you are not supposed to pray, one of which is in the bathroom. I went into a men's room on a tourist stop and I laid out my carpet and I started doing my prayers.
I came back, and when Ramadan was over, I started getting calls from different parts of the country to go and lecture as a Jehovah's Witness minister who embraced Islam. People find me a novelty.
[Two immigrants converse:smirk:
This guy like apple pie and he drives a Chevy truck. He is a red-blooded American boy. He was a Jehovah's Witness."
"Those people that come in the morning?"
"Yeah, those."
"That never let us sleep on Sundays?"
"Yeah, this guy was one of them. Now he's one of us."
Eventually somebody would come up to me and say [Pakistani accent], "Oh, brother, your talk was so good. But you know, in the Shafi'i school of thought.."
The only thing I could do was turn to them and say, "Gee, brother, I'm so sorry, I wish I knew about that, but I don't know anything about Islam except what's in the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Some of them are taken aback and say, "Ha-ha! Poor brother. He doesn't know anything. He only knows the Qur'an."
Well, that's what I'm supposed to know. And it's been a very loving protection. I think it's all in Allah's hands."
Source: The Islamic Bulletin, San Francisco, CA 94141-0186
 
COMF
COMF 14 years ago


I said, These Muslims are friendly.
Define "friendly."
COMF
 
Free2Bme
Free2Bme 14 years ago


Hi SF,
I enjoyed the testimony. Made me laugh.
As an ex-JW with Muslim hubby and in-laws I had to smile. When I lived in my husband's country it was amazing learning all the codes of conduct etc. People have so many misconceptions about Islam because they associate it with fanaticism. But Christian fanaticism has caused far more bloodshed.
Personally I think the world would be a better place without religion altogether. But that's not going to happen because us humans just love having something to mistrust, fight and hate eachother over.
Free
 
muslima
muslima 14 years ago


Dearest SF,
Having the same JW background - 36 years worth - then converting to Islam -- I loved your experience. Salt and bacon...rofl - I am still laughing on that one.
Salamtuk,
Denise
 

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