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Newspaper article: Why JWs Don't Celebrate Easter
by Sugar Shane 12 hours ago 6 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 12 hours ago

Saw this article in the Google news. It seems like the comments section is being overrun by JW apologists. Would be nice if some of us leveled the playing field. Can anyone post a link to the Watchtower article on how we shouldn't get 'all wrapped up' in worrying about pagan origins? I think it was the article based on questions from readers, concerning pinatas.
Anyway...here's the Easter article:
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/letters/20160328/letter-day-why-dont-jehovahs-witnesses-celebrate-easter
Ready? Commence fire!!
 +1 / -0
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 11 hours ago
Commenting on news items like the above is a good way to reach non-JWs who might otherwise think the dubs are an eccentric, but harmless little 'denomination.' It might save them from getting involved in such an organization to begin with...unless they just happen across this forum.
 +4 / -0
Listener
Listener 10 hours ago
Done sugar Shane. There always seem to be plenty of JWs who are happy to post on these types of news articles.
 
Perry
Perry 8 hours ago
Here's an interesting article in defense of using the word "Easter", as the historical day of Jesus' resurrection.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 8 hours ago

I can't honestly think why such an article would be of interest to anyone but JWs.
It's like asking, "Why don't Seventh-Day Adventists observe Sunday as their holy day?" Who other than Adventists cares?
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 7 hours ago
Perry that article was super informative, thanks!
 +1 / -0
jhine
jhine 2 hours ago

The newspaper article hints that JWs do not celebrate the resurrection , is that true ?
Jan
 

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The Judge
by New day 14 hours ago 3 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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New day
New day 14 hours ago
Genuine question here. A lot has been said on this site about how Judge Rutherford responded to events in his day by 'revealing' the great crowd of earthly subjects of the kingdom. It was always portrayed to me as a reaction from the ground up of those who didn't want to go to heaven. This resonated with me as I didn't want to go to heaven either. Why did he do it? Too many people who wanted to go to heaven or what?
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 13 hours ago

Didn't they foresee that their movement would grow past 144,000 members, so they had to change doctrine?
By the way, many mainstream Christian churches believe that someday, after first residing in heaven after death, people will reside on earth, when earth is made new and the tent of God will be with his people. But witnesses are the only ones who take 144K literally and believe in two different hopes. (The one faith one Lord one hope thing I guess fell on deaf ears that time).
 +2 / -0
kairos
kairos 13 hours ago

If there is *any* shred of truth regarding Jesus Christ and any plan of God's, Rutherford may very well be the largest Apostate in the Org's entire history.
He taught them to reject Christ and made up a cover story to sell the books he would later write under claimed inspiration.
The history of JWs is a very sad one indeed.
So many lies.
 +1 / -0
Perry
Perry 8 hours ago

Why did he do it?
....as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. - 2 Tim 3
The simple truth isn't good enough for those with an inflated view of themselves. But, the error always gets revealed in due time.
The first century "good news" cannot be changed no matter how many appeals to "new light" is made:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1: 8




 +3 / -0

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How many times have the GB been wrong?
by atomant 10 hours ago 10 Replies latest 3 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 10 hours ago
Actually its quite amusing to observe the different reactions from within the org every time theres new light.How dumb does a person have to be to not realize its all a conjob.Surely a thinking logical person would question all the changes over the years.lts almost like the blind leading the blind scenario.

 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 9 hours ago

The number of contradictions and lies that the Watchtower makes has no impact on the regular JW who's been in for an average of 10 to 20 years since the age of reason.
What counts is a combination of curiosity and a sense of integrity. Without integrity curiosity amounts to nothing since the person's fears (of shunning) predominate.
 
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 9 hours ago
The were never wrong but were instead "Accuracy Impaired" and "Correctness Challenged".

 +1 / -0
sowhatnow
sowhatnow 9 hours ago

all the time, or 144,000 times
whichever comes first

 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 8 hours ago
The question, what have they ever got right.
 +2 / -0
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 8 hours ago
James beat me to it, was gonna ask the same thing.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 7 hours ago

TOO MANY
 
smiddy
smiddy 3 hours ago

They got one thing right ,
" Religion Is A Snare And A Racket"
smiddy
 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 3 hours ago

At the ARC, his holiness watchtower rock star paedophile protecting pope whacko Jacko said that the GB had apologised in times past.
My question; when?
I've never seen those over stuffed pigs ever apologise. Rather, they blame the rank and file(tm) when they are caught in a lie.
Evidently they are overlapping liars.
 +1 / -0
atomant
atomant 3 hours ago
Sucking millions of people into believing a lie.The irony is the GB (governing baboons) believe there very own lies.

 

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How many times have the GB been wrong?
by atomant 10 hours ago 10 Replies latest 3 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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punkofnice
punkofnice 3 hours ago

atomant3 minutes agoSucking millions of people into believing a lie.The irony is the GB (governing baboons) believe there very own lies.
Or do they? I am not so sure. I think they know it's all lies but enjoy the power and lifestyle. If I, when an elder, realised it was all lies and a cult, how much more so must the paedophile protecting popes know it's all a scam?!?!?
 

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Topic Summary
actually its quite amusing to observe the different reactions from within the org every time theres new light.how dumb does a person have to be to not realize its all a conjob.surely a thinking logical person would question all the changes over the years.lts almost like the blind leading the blind scenario.



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Circuit Overseer Guidelines (tg-E) October 2015
by wifibandit 10 hours ago 11 Replies latest 27 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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wifibandit
wifibandit 10 hours ago

Circuit Overseer Guidelines (tg-E) October 2015
http://bit.ly/1UTgiZt
 +5 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 10 hours ago

This is great!
A disgruntled CO? Say it isn't so! (sarcasm)
Thank you to Cedars and everyone involved in getting this out!
 +4 / -0
bafh
bafh 9 hours ago

It is disturbing that:
◦1) it appears they put more weight on whether or not someone has a "scriptural marriage" than if someone has been accused of child sexual abuse
◦2) They appear to believe that asking someone directly "are you a child molester" will yield an accurate answer should someone actually be child molester
◦3) Communication with the Branch about sexual abuse of a child is required to be conducted by phone (no paper trail).
 +1 / -0
jwleaks
jwleaks 8 hours ago
Thank you.
 +2 / -0
Listener
Listener 6 hours ago

Thanks Wifi, I haven't seen that this has been available in the past.
Bahf - 2) They appear to believe that asking someone directly "are you a child molester" will yield an accurate answer should someone actually be child molester

They must know that it is highly unlikely a child molester will be honest just by being asked this question and resulting in his not only losing a higher position but other repercussions as well.

This would be a good excuse for the organization to later put the onus on the individual for any compensation payments.

On the other hand, it may be indicative of another problem within the organization. It may be that the individual had already been subject to investigation and even a JC with either no action being taken and/or no record being kept and no details that the issue was in relation to child molesting. Basically, the Branch may never have been informed but others, including elders, are aware of the incident.
◦


 +1 / -0
Pubsinger
Pubsinger 5 hours ago

Bahf (and others as thread grows)
Can you put references (page/section etc) of where important things found are please. Will help everyone greatly 😊
 
sir82
sir82 4 hours ago


They appear to believe that asking someone directly "are you a child molester" will yield an accurate answer should someone actually be child molester
They're stupid, but not that stupid. They know every person will answer "no", including child molesters.
The question is there for their own legal protection. They can swear in court "to the best of their knowledge, Brother Kiddieporn was never a child molester".

 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 3 hours ago

My review of the Circuit Overseas instructions (2015 version) to Chapter 19
The introduction provides encouragement to the oversees, explaining how they are following in the footsteps of the 1st century congregations and includes this –
In his inspired letter to the congregation in Ephesus, the apostle Paul highlighted the need for all overseers to work under Christ’s lead-ership “with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ.” (Eph. 4:8, 11-13)
Of note here is the fact that their role is focused only towards the anointed, who are the holy ones and the only ones required to build up the body of Christ. Most congregations that the overseers administer to have no anointed ones.
Care should be taken to avoid a situation where a circuit overseer or his wife is left alone in a home with a member of the opposite sex.
That’s fine and good advise if you don’t trust your most exemplary Bro’s and Sisters but may also avoid any gossip. However, it is noted that there is no mention of being alone with children.
For example, if a brother is so extremely overweight that others would be distracted if he had a part on the program, good judgment would need to be used in deciding whether to give him an assignment, even though he might otherwise be qualified
This is just sad, as it is just an example, it is likely that they would apply it to other physical disabilities. Geoffrey Jackson even felt a need to explain about being blind in his left eye.
While a sister may be a good interpreter, it is not appropriate to use a sister as an interpreter for judicial cases.
This would suggest that they consider it inappropriate for any sister to be in attendance at a JC even in a role providing assistance.
In all cases of judicial reproof and reinstatement, restrictions should be imposed.
Absolutely no discretion here, you do something wrong and there will be discipline.
The 30-hour option is limited to four times per year.
-for auxiliary pioneering
If the brother is (1) being appointed for the first time as a ministerial servant or (2) being reappointed as an elder or a ministerial servant for reasons other than his move from one congregation to another, the circuit overseer should ask the following questions: “Is there anything from your past, even before baptism, or in your personal or family life that disqualifies you or that would prevent you from accepting this appointment? Is there any reason why your appointment should not be announced to the congregation? Have you ever been involved at any time in the past with child sex ual molestation?” If the brother answers no to the questions, the circuit overseer should provide the elders with a signed appointmentletter that includes the brother’s name in the list of those appointedduring the visit. (See 17:36; Appendix E.) The circuit overseer shouldinform the Service Department of the appointment using the Notification of Appointment or Deletion (S-2) form.
The CO is told specifically not to ask a brother transferring from one congregation to another and being considered for reappointment the question of child abuse.
It would be rare to appoint as an elder a brother who is in his early twenties.
This means that it is common for elders in their mid an late twenties to be considered for appointment. Why they call them Elders is misleading. However they qualify it with this statement
If they have acquired a fine standing in the congregation and have the respect and appreciation of their brothers for their diligent, faithful service, they may already be viewed as spiritually older men.
Sorry for the next quote, as it is long, but I thought there might be some who are particularly interested in this without having to go through the whole document
THOSE WITH A RECORD OF PAST MISCONDUCT
12. The circuit overseer needs to check with the elders about any past reproofs or disfellowshippings of those being recommended for appointment. If a brother who was reproved during the last three years or reinstated during the last five years is being recommended, the circuit overseer should give careful consideration to the following: (1) whether an announcement was made to the congregation (in the case of a reproof) and the degree of notoriety involved, (2) when the last restriction was removed, and (3) whether the brother has regained the respect of the congregation.
13. Circuit overseers need to be careful about reappointing brothers too soon after their being removed as elders or ministerial servants because of wrongdoing. A quick reappointment under those circumstances tends to minimize the seriousness of the wrongdoing in the eyes of the wrongdoer and may be disturbing to those who remember his bad course. (1 Tim. 5:22) Brothers removed for wrongdoing have to live down the reproach they brought on themselves and the congregation before they can be reappointed. This involves building up a convincing record of righteousness that serves to counterbalance the effect of the past wrong. Depending on the gravityof the wrongdoing, this might take five, ten, or more years. In cases of great scandal, a brother might not live the reproach down sufficiently in his lifetime so as to qualify as an elder or a ministerial servant.—Titus 1:6, 7.
14. A brother who enters into an adulterous marriage would not qualify to serve as an elder or a ministerial servant at least until the death or remarriage of his former mate, if ever. Neither wouldhe qualify to serve as an auxiliary or regular pioneer or be assigned to help with the literature, accounts, magazines, attendants, or similar assignments. Thus, if a brother was divorced in the past, the cicumstances surrounding the divorce must always be reviewed. How long ago did it occur? Was it before or after his baptism? Was it a Scriptural divorce? Who committed the adultery? What responsibility did the brother have for the breakup of his marriage? Who initiated the divorce, and did the spouse agree to the divorce? (w00 12/15pp. 28-29) Did he remarry? If so, when? Are love and devotion evident within his new marriage? Does he have the full respect of the congregation?
They are very specific with this.
Some have had their spirituality tested with regard to disfellowshipped relatives. For example, some have attended wedding receptions where disfellowshipped persons were present. Doing so goes contrary to the direction at 1 Corinthians 5:11 to “stop keeping company” with such ones. If the host is going to violate this clearly stated direction and invite a disfellowshipped person to a reception, he has an obligation to inform all the wedding guests that a disfellowshipped person will be in attendance so that they can decide whether to attend. Others have attended the wedding of a baptized individual who is marrying an unbeliever or have provided financial assistance to such ones, thus giving their implied support to an unscriptural, unequal yoking. (1 Cor. 7:39; 2 Cor. 6:14) If an elder or a ministerial servant displays poor judgment in these areas to a degree that it raises serious questions in the minds of others, he may be Scripturally disqualified from serving.—1 Tim. 3:13.
On a positive note, if you’re not an Elder then it is up to the individual to decide whether they will attend a wedding where a dfd one is in attendance.
In harmony with the inspired counsel at Titus 2:3-5, it may be that the circuit overseer’s wife could help single sisters, depending on the circumstances. Of course, he would not want to encourage her to place herself in a situation with a sister who is experiencing complex problems that would drain his wife’s time and energies.—See 23:4.
Of course not, that would just be extending oneself too much.
This is a short review up to chapter 19
 +2 / -0
jaydee
jaydee 2 hours ago

wifibandit
this is excellent
thank you

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.riffsy.com%2Fimages%2F7a9de974bf5c36562a1b0510a56bfb21%2Fraw&f=1
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 hours ago
wonder who the disgruntled CO is?
 +1 / -0

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Circuit Overseer Guidelines (tg-E) October 2015
by wifibandit 10 hours ago 11 Replies latest 28 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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Room 215
Room 215 an hour ago

"For example, if a brother is so extremely overweight that others would be distracted if he had a part on the program, good judgment would need to be used in deciding whether to give him an assignment, even though he might otherwise be qualified"
Hmm....Are there any of the Magnificent Seven to whom this might apply?



 +1 / -0
tiki
tiki 28 minutes ago
They're so full of themselves....
 

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circuit overseer guidelines (tg-e) october 2015. http://bit.ly/1utgizt.



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What's the difference between 'works' and 'fruits'?
by TTWSYF 2 days ago 9 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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TTWSYF
TTWSYF 2 days ago

My uber JW elder brother USED to use Jesus's quote "You know a tree by it's fruit" and then would speak about how JWs are the only ones going door to door and restoring God's true name.
My niece was the first to point out that those were works and not fruits. My brother retreated for a few days to contemplate the difference between works and fruits and when he returned to address the comment, he stated that works are fruits.
What's the take from the JW apologist?
What's the take from the JW critic?
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 days ago

I would say that the fruitage would be the result, not the effort. Someone could spend a lot of time in a soup kitchen making soup and filling bowls, but if no one comes in to eat then they're working but not yielding any fruitage (or the fruitage they do yield is wasted soup - not something to brag about).
The point is that the fruitage is somewhat out of your control. Going back to the "I planted, apolos watered, but god kept making it grow" concept - the fruitage is evidence of divine blessing because it's not entirely in the hands of the ones doing the work. That's my interpretation of it, at least. So applying this to JWs - they spend a crap ton of time in the ministry, that's their work. Their fruitage is that they grow at roughly the rate of population growth, which does not indicate to me any sort of divine blessing. By their fruit you know them - they're a waste of time.
 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 2 days ago

My take is that "fruits" are also the "natural" result. So if you are a loving and kind person that will naturally show as a fruit.
"Works" are doing things whether naturally or through duty or to save your skin or under compulsion.
So door to door ministry is "works" and could be a fruit of loving kindness towards others but equally or more likely through self-serving desires.
 
jhine
jhine 2 days ago

Coming in on the side of the critics firstly l would say that it is not fruits plural but fruit . Which l would suggest is something grown in inside us . Love , peace , patience , slow to anger etc are are characteristics which people display .
Works are something you do , which should include feeding the hungry , housing the homeless , caring for orphans . The WT is recognisable from it's ( non ) works .
Jan
 
Hisclarkness
Hisclarkness 2 days ago
The person is known by their fruit, meaning fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, long suffering, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.
 +1 / -0
rocketman
rocketman 2 days ago
One Eyed Joe, good comment.
 
nugget
nugget 2 days ago

Works are tending the tree so in this case the service and the promoting Jehovahs name are works, The fruit will be the results of these activities.
So door to door work what are the fruits, what is the purpose behind it? If it is to make disciples then it is a poor crop. If it is to explain their faith then the world outside the organisation is still unclear on the specifics of the faith and that Jehovah is their interpretation of God's name. If it was a real tree or a crop it is very poor indeed. Just doing the work is not enough there has to be something to show for it.
 
redvip2000
redvip2000 2 days ago

The point is that the fruitage is somewhat out of your control
Exactly. The point is that fruitage is basically something you hope for, but you can't necessarily make it happen.
Going door to door is not fruitage, it's work. Fruitage in this case is the hope that the ranks of JWs will be enlarged as a result of the door to door preaching. Clearly this is not the case, in fact door to door preaching, is a colossal waste of time.

Restoring God's name ( indiscriminately adding Jehovah where it never existed in the Bible) is not fruitage of any kind, it's just an effort. What is the hope? That people will be moved to accept Jehoober and join the ranks of JWs? Oh, well look answer above.

 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

Works are all the free labor you provide to WT.
Fruits are the anger and resentment, depression and anxiety, that build up slowly over the years of slaving for the WT.
 
TTWSYF
TTWSYF a day ago

One Eye hit the nail on the head! But great observations from all.
There MUST be some fruit from the WTS. I mean I was always hearing about 'knowing a tree'
Any real Watchtower fruit?
Anyone, ? Bueller?....Bueller?....Bueller?
 

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PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago 24 Replies latest 19 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Setting the scene
Pastor Russell died in 1916.
Those who had 'followed' him were known pejoratively as Russellites. You could call it a 'cult of personality' if you wanted to sneer. But the fact remains plenty of people subscribed to his magazine,The Watchtower, and read his 6 Studies in the Scriptures.
A countdown clock was ticking
Would the Watchtower Society of Bible Students be "up for grabs"? Would a new leader be able to step into Russell's shoes and continue his work, or would everyone go their separate ways?Would the failure of Armageddon in 1914 turn these true believers away? What could unite the flock and keep them busy and distracted while the Judge Rutherford takeover occurred?
________________


Enter Judge Rutherford on a whirlwind!
Rutherford had to pump up the home team and rally them around the countdown clock to Armageddon.
The audience was listening!
What could the Judge say that would keep the butts in the seats and prevent divisions from happening which would turn people away?
THE GIMMICK
September 25, 1920, “The World Has Ended—Millions Now Living Will Never Die” by J. F. Rutherford in Los Angeles on February 24, 1918.


What was this all about?


Rutherford, by creating a COUNTDOWN MECHANISM leading to 1925,
bought himself time to consolidate power.


______________________________________________

The 1925 date came and went, but Rutherford had taken over inside a space of eight years, and that was "mission accomplished."
_________________
The "oracle" of the Watchtower, Fred Franz, was not one to be daunted by failure or misinterpretation in his calculations. No way!
Freddy Franz kept at it. You can hear him thinking out loud . . .
"Now, just for the sake of argument, let's say that *maybe* somehow our calculations are only one JUBILEE cycle off."
The a big smile brightens his face.
"Look what we get: 1975!"
_________________________________
In the meantime, the Watchtower tore off a piece of the failed Countdown and used it as a way of lighting the fuse to Armageddon.
What was that fuse? The "generations" teaching.
__________
"How would you feel if proof is given that what you believe is wrong? For example, say that you were in a car, traveling for the first time to a certain place. You have a road map, but you have not taken the time to check it carefully. Someone has told you the road to take. You trust him, sincerely believing that the way he has directed you is correct. But suppose it is not? What if someone points out the error? What if he, by referring to your own map, shows that you are on the wrong road? Would pride or stubbornness prevent you from admitting that you are on the wrong road? Well, then, if you learn from an examination of your Bible that you are traveling a wrong religious road, be willing to change. Avoid the broad road to destruction; get on the narrow road to life."
You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, pgs. 32-33
_____________________________

"Generation" GIMMICK EXPLAINED
As the people who had seen the events of 1914 began to age and die, Jehovah's Witnesses would look at their extinction as a fuse burning to Armageddon. Why? Judge Rutherford had said millions of them would never die!
_____________

- Awake! 1962 Sept 22 p.27 - "The word "generation" at Matthew 24:34 is to be viewed in an ordinary sense, as at Acts 13:36 and Mark 8:12. Acts 13:36 speaks of David's very own generation, a literal generation. The generation of persons living in Jesus' time, who sought a sign, according to Mark 8:12, was a literal generation. That a symbolic application to a "generation" of wicked persons is not meant at Matthew 24:34 is apparent when we read the preceding verse: "Likewise, also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors." Since Jesus was foretelling conditions prevailing now at the world's time of the end, the generation now living is the one to which he pointed forward in his prophecy of the last days.
- w75 5/1 p. 277 par. 22 Why We Have Not Been Told "That Day and Hour"
Which "generation" is that? The one that has witnessed the events in fulfillment of prophecy since 1914 C.E. There is no doubt about the truthfulness of what Jesus said. Forcefully he added: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away."
______________________
The Watchtower and especially Fred Franz had painted themselves into a tight corner whereby they had made themselves TESTABLE as False Prophets!
Notice how tightly reasoned and specific the following statement is made, in effect leaving NO room for a looser, sloppy overlapping generation.



- Watchtower 1988 Oct 15 p.4 - "Might it be, though, that the sign could occur over the span of many human generations? No. The sign is to occur during one particular generation. The same generation that witnessed the beginning of the sign will also witness its climax in "a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation." Matthew, Mark, and Luke, recorded Jesus assurance of this.."
_____________
Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!
Can you imagine the panic? The countdown clock is proving the Watchtower's claims of divine God channeling is dissolving every minute!



Let us peek in and watch as they squirm and cheat!
WT 54 10/15 p. 612 A Message of Encouragement and Value
"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." What a consoling fact that is! All these things would happen in one generation! The sudden worsening of world conditions since World War I, which broke out forty years ago, was here foretold to end within one generation, within the lifetime of people who are now at least 40 years old!
Awake! October 8 1968, page 13
"Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the last days began. Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914."
________ Watch these Jehovah-channeling-clowns set limits and then violate the limits set._____
WT October 1, 1978, page 31
"Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the 'generation' logically would not apply to babies born during World War I."
_________No babies, right? Watch what panic has done 10 years later_____
Awake! April 8, 1988, page 14
"Most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it. ... Jesus' words will come true, "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened"."
_______Eventually, it is way too embarrassing, and this happens______
 WT April 15, 2010, "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose". para 13 - 14: "How, then, are we to understand Jesus' words about "this generation"? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation."
_________________
 Funny how that happened. This is the solution to their self-destruction.
By destroying the definition of generation altogether, they've demonstrated intellectual dishonesty. Why?
They could never confess to ignorance or human error! The GB has no humility.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practiced to deceive."


The New Testament begins with a really clear presentation of just how separate and distinct generations really were.
The bible shows that generations did not 'overlap'
_______________
Mat 1:17 "All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the
deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations."



____________________
The intellectual dishonesty of the Watchtower religion is nowhere more
evident than by this switcheroo which lasted almost 100 years, like the Chinese water torture!
Rather than come out and admit they didn't have a clue--they pretended to know until it was obvious
to everybody.
This is an Organization of nitwits!
 
 +15 / -0
Listener
Listener 3 days ago
The boardroom meeting where they discussed this idea would have been fascinating to hear.
 +3 / -1
SpiritualGal08
SpiritualGal08 2 days ago
Excellent synopsis!
 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

The boardroom meeting where they discussed this idea would have been fascinating to hear.
___________
The closest we ever got to the "fly on the wall" was in Ray Franz's writings.
His preconceived idea of what the GB meetings would be and how spiritually the protocol would be conducted was a deflating experience.



 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

The false commercialized doctrines created by Russell continued on with appealing revisions throughout the 20th century, propagated as being true and accurate bible interpretative understanding and giving the stamp of certification by the WTS leaders themselves by saying they are Jehovah's solemnly chosen organization..

The exploitation of the bible is the core construct of how the WTS was able to draw a measure of attention to its expressed doctrines and hold them as bible truths.

The accuracy of these purposed doctrines can be pulled apart as not being bible truths or correct scripture interpretation by even laymen bible readers or non academic bible theologians.


 
Listener
Listener 2 days ago
Ray Franz was disappointed that the bible was rarely used. There's no evidence of it being used in the case of the generation teaching. Splane even told his audience to come up with their own scriptures that they think might apply, it doesn't get much crazier than that.
 +2 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 2 days ago
Thanks, just brilliant
 
sparky1
sparky1 2 days ago

I believe that lid came off the paint can and the painting of themselves into a corner began with the QUESTIONS FROM READERS in the September 1, 1952 WATCHTOWER magazine. On page 542 the question was posed:
"Your publications point out that the battle of Armageddon will come in this generation, and that this generation began A.D. 1914. Scripturally, how long is a generation?" - G. P., Liberia
Answer: "Webster's unabridged dictionary gives, in part, this definition of generation: 'The average lifetime of man, or the ordinary period of time at which one rank follows another, or father is succeeded by child; an age. A generation is usually taken to be about 33 years.' But the Bible is not so specific. It gives no number of years for a generation. And in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, the texts mentioning the generation the question refers to, we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster's does in it's 33 year approximation; but rather more like Webster's first quoted definition, 'the average lifetime of man'. Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping. (Ps. 78:4; 145:4) Before the Noachian flood the life span was hundreds of years. Down through the centuries since, it has varied, and even now is different in different countries. The Bible does speak of man's days as being threescore and ten or fourscore years; bit it assigns no specific number of years to a generation.-Ps.90:10
Even if it did, we could not calculate from such a figure the date of Armageddon, for the texts here under discussion do not say God's battle comes right at the end of this generation, but before it's end. To try and say how many years before it's end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living in A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation. There are hundreds of millions of persons living now that were living in 1914, and many millions of these persons could yet live a score or more years. Just when the lives of the majority of them will be cut short by Armageddon we cannot say."
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

Lets face it making up dates such as 1874 and 1914 helped to draw attention even more so to the literature the WTS published by all of its leading editorial writers. What becomes bit alarming is the bible clearly warms of men to set or calculate dates upon god's own sacred time by Jesus's own admonishment

Plain and simple the WTS built and expanded its organization by using deception, fear mongering and exploitation of the basic belief in the bible, that would be an accurate biblical truth and understanding.

The history of the WTS is starting to catch up to itself for now people can look back at this organization and see what it has done, which in all common sense is hype, deceive and bullshit for over 100 years since its very beginning as a religious publishing house.

 +1 / -0
zeb
zeb 2 days ago

Terry, what an excellent concise posting.
All this so the wts can stand before the Christ returned (supposedly) and say look here what a great job we did.
Their arrogance is beyond belief.
If and that is a very big "IF" they were to admit to their being wrong all these years and it would have to be in a wt study then the rank and file would have to accept it and then they the r&f would be thrust in a second back on their own resources as to how to live conduct themselves (no more shunning) and pursue life in all its variables of education, diet, relations with a broader community around them.
Frankly with such a massive culture shock I would see then a sunami of mental breakdowns, the same heading to over worked doctors for medications and as we have seen post '75 a huge % going for alcohol abuse with all its attended woes. Did I say suicides?
Spiritual guidance? feed the hungry, house the poor, shelter the orphans; do unto each other as ye would have them do unto you....................... and stop forever the practise of making fool predictions!
I am ever more thankful each day I am out of it.!
 +1 / -0

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PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago 24 Replies latest 20 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 2 days ago

Zeb: Spiritual guidance? feed the hungry, house the poor, shelter the orphans; do unto each other as ye would have them do unto you....................... and stop forever the practise of making fool predictions!
________________
The form of worship that is pure and undefiled. . .
So foreign to JW mindset.
They have no heart for human beings only invisible rulers and locksetp marching to rules.
 +1 / -0
elderINewton
elderINewton 2 days ago
Terry great post. You are very eloquent.
 +1 / -0
baldeagle
baldeagle 2 days ago
Great references Terry, very easy to follow.
 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

Thank you. Every once and awhile I get the same feeling we all get
when we see boxes on the top shelf of the closet. The urge to reach up and hoist them off those dusty shelves and lift the lid comes over us.
Of course, it's always stuff we've seen before, but as we age our perspective on same-old-thing changes and a fresh sense of how it all fits into the bigger puzzle seems more nearly possible.
Each time I tread these waters I learn something.
________
The transitions in Russell's life fascinate me. Why? Because he seems like a person who never had any fun. Such a serious face without a smile to be found! I'd guess it was the loss of his doting mother when he was so young. I don't have a feeling for his dad's personality at all.
Was he all business? Was he a fun companion? Did he just go along with anything his son wanted to do? It is all fuzzy how a young man ended up convincing his father to sell the business and invest in End of the World speculation!
Here's another puzzle.
Who was C.T. Russell's best friend? I don't know--do you?
Did he and his friend play jokes on each other? Did they ever get drunk?
Was he always a Nerd? How did he manage to talk a beautiful woman such as Maria into a loveless marriage?
Was it really only a business venture with security for her and a platform for her writing? Did they ever cross the line into passion?
I think--I mean, I guess perhaps these two were really uptight and closed off to carnal expressions. Either that or the marriage was a false pretense on the part of Charlie. Perhaps he will always remain an enigma.
__________
With Joe Rutherford, I think I have a really strong idea of what kind of man he was. His father was a stone cold, hard-nosed farmer. Joe had to work very very hard from the time he was a small boy. But this kid had a burning ambition to be much more than a clone. He wanted to become a lawyer and he put everything he had into achieving that goal. Working, going to school and long hours spent studying demonstrate a driven Type A personality.
This man was cunning and strategic and it paid off for him.
He strikes me as the sort of person a Mob boss would love to hire to handle accounts.
He was ruthless, too. If you got in the way of The Judge, you paid the price. Plotting out his life story is like looking at Bugsy Malone or Al Capone. It seems the only thing that could stop the man was rectal cancer. Just imagine the pain and agony connected to a long slow death of that nature! I almost feel sorry for him as a human being.
I said, "Almost."
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

Russell appears to me as a subjective victim of his own ignorance of what he came across, if it wasn't Pyramidolgy it was other Adventist bible teachers who most likely themselves were influenced from other Dispensational Era Evangelical teachers. ie. William Miller

One must keep in mind that this was a time when evolution and much of the present sciences wasn't yet known or popularize through educational means. Most people didn't even have what we would consider a high school education, more like middle school grading ie. 7 or 8 only the very rich would have something like a high school education or Collage degree at that time. So the bible then was seen more so as a book of knowledge, wisdom and respected as such.
Rutherford was a guy who saw something that he personally desired himself and that was power, control and money which the WTS .had in place thanks to Russell's endeavors, the rest is history. 
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

Ray Franz definitely called it when he wrote, "they've made their (1914) bed, and seem determined to sleep in it" (paraphrasing, but that's the gist).
x
It's a good thing that - according to Lett - there's now more evidence for 1914 than gravity, electricity, and wind... 
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

It's a good thing that - according to Lett - there's now more evidence for 1914 than gravity, electricity, and wind...
Did he really say that ?

 
sparky1
sparky1 2 days ago

Actually he said that 'there is more evidence for the kingdom, than there is for gravity, electricity and wind'. But the point Vidiot made is basically the same. Take a look, Fink.
https://youtu.be/zJ6405yjZfo
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

What a stupidly contrived analogy, Gravity, Wind and Electricity have practical psychical evidence in their acknowledged presence.

There's isn't any thing to support what Lett says about Jesus Kingdom in operation other than the WTS lied and pretentiously made itself (1919) into god's chosen organization, when reality it was founded upon misinformation and inaccurate bible interpretations, devised to create corrupt religoius charlatanism by a select publishing house..

 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Brokeback WT - "...the WTS lied and pretentiously made itself (1919) into god's chosen organization, when reality it was founded upon misinformation and inaccurate bible interpretations, devised to create corrupt religoius charlatanism by a select publishing house..."
And has to continue doing so, otherwise - by its own stipulations - it is technically a "false religion" and therefore has no justification to exist.
 

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Topic Summary
setting the scene.
pastor russell died in 1916. those who had 'followed' him were known pejoratively as russellites.
you could call it a 'cult of personality' if you wanted to sneer.



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PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago 24 Replies latest 20 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 2 days ago

The Watchtower stole a page out of the Koran when it came to
justifying lying. JW's call it Theocratic War Strategy.
Islam calls it Tequila. (Well, it sounds like that word :)






 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

So in other words what the Quran is saying that non Muslims are essentially bad associations and should be avoided, unless your interested or studying into joining the faith perhaps.

Yep that sounds like JWS and is it any wonder why the WTS instructs and influences its members to not associate with non-believers, even ones own family members if need be.

Good catch there Terry.

 
Terry
Terry 21 hours ago

I'll bet--and I'm not being silly--the Watchtower could publish an article explain how a circle has pointy protuberances--and the Dubs would run out the next day and insist it is true.
When you stop and think about it, word tampering is the supreme art perfected by the Watchtower.
The GB redesigns "meaning."
All "Truth" has a shelf life.
Spare parts abound!
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 21 hours ago

Doomsday cults need a doomsday to gather followers.
Here's the real simple version of the complicated doctrine of when Jesus supposedly returned and the lastdays arrived/ended/started.

William Miller said that Jesus' Return would be in 1844. (See The Great Disappointment athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment ) People who believed what he said were known as "Millerites." It (Jesus' return) didn't happen. This return of Jesus was also known as his second advent, and believers came to be known as Adventists.
Adventist Jonas Wendell suffered in his faith at the Great Disappointment, but later carried the same type of "Millerites" talk in a sermon where Wendell had picked the new date of 1873 or 1874 for Jesus' 2nd return (after studying Bible chronology and being wrong about 1868). 18 year old C. T. Russell heard Wendell in 1870 speak of such a date. Wendell had already published The Present Truth, or Meat in Due Season highlighting such dates. So Wendell invented those terms that would haunt the WT organization and morph into New Light and food at the proper time.
Wendell died in August of 1873, probably confident that his 1873 to 1874 date was correct. When Jesus didn't appear as expected, Russell still believed it (or at least wanted to keep selling pamplets that explained it). He taught that Jesus must have returned invisibly, meaning that Jesus was ruling from Heaven starting in 1874. He taught that 40 years later, a literal application of how long a "generation" was, in 1914, Jesus would take power on the earth. That would mean an end to the Gentile Times in 1914 and an end to the last days- destruction and death and stuff.
Because World War One (coincidentally) started in 1914, Russell used that as a sign that he was correct in his complicated doctrines. He was already good at reinventing understanding rather than admitting he was wrong.

All the rest is just calculated backwards- the stuff about 607 BCE and the 2520 years and the Seven Times.
All of it was just made to fit that understanding. When things didn't work out as planned (again) the people in charge just reinvented the understandings and adjusted the math to fit whatever they wanted it to fit to sell more pamphlets/magazines/books. The end of the last days became the beginning of the last days. 1874 was forgotten. They just kept changing the end-date. They even made terrible errors and just changed the math to fit- they forgot there was no "Year Zero" and changed 606 BCE to 607 BCE.
They kept 1914 because it was so well-known to the followers and they already said "See, we were right" when World War One started. Everything about Nebuchadnezzar and the destruction/building of the temple was just made to fit the math. You can find anything if you work backwards. It's like writing a Sherlock Holmes story. Just work backwards from what a great detective would expect to find and make him look like a genius in discovering those things.
It is so unnecessary to understand the ridiculous theories of WT's present understanding when you can see what it was based on and how it changed to suit their need to get a following and sell pamphlets/magazines/books. It saddens me that I bothered to understand it at one time.
JW's were "painted in a corner" when their 1914 generation was close to expiring for the 1970's, but rather than adjust then, they let their shelf life expiration inspire them to shout even louder. They built a whole new Watchtower Printing Corporation on the backs of 1975 believers. They wound up with more new recruits retained after the disappointment about 1975 than they would have had if they never had a 1975 campaign.
They tried leaving the "imminent end" open for awhile, but doomsday cults need a doomsday. They went to that ridiculous overlap generation because it serves their purposes better than their "ongoing generation of the wicked" doctrine from 1995.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 20 hours ago

" This generation of lying corrupt religoius charlatans perhaps "

 

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Topic Summary
setting the scene.
pastor russell died in 1916. those who had 'followed' him were known pejoratively as russellites.
you could call it a 'cult of personality' if you wanted to sneer.



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July 2016 study watchtower more materialism bashing and the end is nigh!
by hoser 3 days ago 5 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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hoser
hoser 3 days ago

Wowsers! They are really hitting it now. Don't strive for a cell phone or a motorcycle. Cut back on work and pioneer.
The next article tells us how sooooon the end is to make it a complete package.
 +3 / -0
lurkernomore
lurkernomore 3 days ago

Pretty much everyone has a mobile phone these days so I think they missed the train on that one. Idiots!
 +5 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

Nothing new. Their little fear mongering is falling on deaf ears these days. Thanks world wide web!!!
DY
 +4 / -0
fukitol
fukitol 3 days ago

Quotes please.
They're encouraging everyone to buy a tablet and watch and preach using JWtv and JW.BORG but theyre discouraging buying cellphones?
 +3 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 3 days ago
Probably disrupting meetings
 +2 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 3 days ago

They're encouraging everyone to buy a tablet and watch and preach using JWtv and JW.BORG but theyre discouraging buying cellphones?
They get ya coming and going. The rules are, by design, impossible to follow. Everyone always has a reason to feel guilty.
 

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A Conversation with my Mom about Anthony Morris, Spanx, and Tight Pan
by Brokeback Watchtower 3 days ago 7 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower 3 days ago

You get them AC.



 +5 / -0
Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower 3 days ago

The laughter when AM#3 speaks about his insane ideas seems to be more a laughing at and not with(agreement). But since this guys is clearly a delusional idiots he interpits the laughter as agreement of his every delusion about being leader of God's earthly organization.
I'm thinking a mass exodus if more of these Governing Body members keep expounding on utter bullshit concerning their imaginary friend and corporation sock puppet Jehovah.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago
I often wonder just how many dyed-in-the-wool JWs are actual bona fide fans of guys like Morris and Lett... :smirk:
 +0 / -1
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Brokeback WT - "...he interpits the laughter as agreement of his every delusion..."
An awfully easy habit to fall into when you surround yourself solely with people who are never allowed to disagree with you.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 days ago


I often wonder just how many dyed-in-the-wool JWs are actual bona fide fans of guys like Morris and Lett...

My father in law is a big fan of AMIII. He (my FIL) is a raging homophobe, so the message of a homosexual conspiracy to get men in tight pants in order to have more eye candy is appealing to him. He's a confrontational person, so he likes it when he has someone who's willing to say controversial things (assuming that they're in line with what he thinks) because it's what he'd do.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago
Turning the R&F into GB fanboys can only help the XJW community in the long run, IMO.
 +1 / -0
contramundum
contramundum 2 days ago
This really made me laugh - yes, 'at' AMIII, not with him
 
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 a day ago

This was a pretty hilarious way to critique the video. I thought it was pretty funny.
I do wonder what happened to her. She made some videos but that was well over a year ago right?
 

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Jehovah's Witnesses January 2016 Sunday 2nd talk by CO "You are what you eat "
by Watchtower-Free 3 days ago 12 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 3 days ago





 
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Well the WT and it's teaching is not but crap so I guess that means you are full
of crap. You become what you eat.
 +1 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 3 days ago

Yeah, eat this GM, GB spiritual food brothers - it does us wonders!
Warning - has been known to produce symptoms of numbing and ultimately dying of the brain.
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 3 days ago
Lett must be eating rubber.
 +4 / -0
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 3 days ago




 +11 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Damn't I meant " nothing but crap". Those people drive me crazy with their dumbness.
 
Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane 3 days ago
 
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 days ago
All the reasoning is suspect, the logic is full of holes, and the arguments are false.
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 days ago



"All the reasoning is suspect, the logic is full of holes, and the arguments are false."
THIS...
DD

 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 days ago
no chance I can last 40 mins listening to this idiot who by the way seems a poor,uninspiring speaker
 +1 / -0

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Jehovah's Witnesses January 2016 Sunday 2nd talk by CO "You are what you eat "
by Watchtower-Free 3 days ago 12 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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sowhatnow
sowhatnow 2 days ago

I wont listen, until I am needing something to help me fall asleep....
[Id find myself looking at scriptures and thinking, wha? huh? where are you going with that one? ]

I could never understand what the purpose of all those talks did for people in general.
when giving a talk, the material in my opinion, should ALWAYS appeal to a total stranger who has just walked in and sat down. totally understandable, can be applied immediately, helpful and joyful to hear. A person should walk away feeling good, not guilty, fearful or anxious.

what keeps someone going back to a specific church or congregation?
usually what is being said from the stage...

if no one can make sense of it, why bother listening.

the fact is, every talk they give is so mysterious and single minded, the sole purpose of putting a burden on your mind.
with no focus on how humans can better themselves for the good of your fellow man. they use very few if any scriptures and they most always have nothing to do with the idea they are trying to get across.

[well, not that the poorly assembled ancient book has any real use to it accept to shock a person....lol ]

 
Tenacious
Tenacious 2 days ago
Funny Burger Wagging Long Tongue
 
sparky1
sparky1 2 days ago



"YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT"- Circuit Overseers Talk
"HUH......I guess I'm a Pork Roast!" - Mark Sanderson
 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt3d72rd1wm.



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I'm at the Watchtower Study and I have a few questions.
by biblexaminer 3 days ago 4 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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biblexaminer
biblexaminer 3 days ago
As far as the "memorial" goes...


Should an anointed follower of Jesus share the cup with unbelievers?



Would the cup not be polluted by an outsider, invited in to a sacred thing?



Should one who is "truly anointed" share the cup with “those who mistakenly think that they are anointed... may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven.”
Excerpt From: WATCHTOWER. “The Watchtower (Study), January 2016.” Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. iBooks. (Today's study par. 13.)



As I type on my iPad, in a window, from my seat, we are on par 2

 +2 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 3 days ago

Jesus said not to exalt ones self. The bible says there is no favoritism with God . the bible says all who believe and profess Jesus is Christ are saved and are sons of God. Notice it's All no distiction book of romans. All who believe are part of the body of Christ who is the only anointed one and because they are part of his body they to have his anointing. All Christians are anointed the JWs have it all wrong and thier teaching was put in place to exalt thier leadership a layity Class.
I posted a topic titled , Proper understanding of the Mediator & New Covenant. The information here is very close to an accurate understanding with a couple of minor changes I learned later.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/250255/proper-understanding-mediator-new-covenant

 +1 / -0
biblexaminer
biblexaminer 3 days ago
Should the cup even be passed to fornicators etc.
 
millie210
millie210 3 days ago
Didnt Russell write that everyone should be allowed to partake? Even if they came from another religion and attended?
 
biblexaminer
biblexaminer 3 days ago

And what about children? Do we pass it to them to see if they feel the need to partake?
'annointed children'
 +2 / -0

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Another Attack at least 50 killed
by James Mixon 3 days ago 12 Replies latest 21 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Christians attack in Lahore Pakistan...
What the hell is wrong with people.
 
Giordano
Giordano 3 days ago

Whats your source James? CNN reports 50 killed and rising......... 200 wounded.
No mention of Christian's attacking or being attacked.
Suicide Bomber blew up near the children's swings.
 
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

KTLA 5 Morning News L.A. CA. Most of the dead women and children. It happen in
a park where mostly Christians was there celebrating Easter.
 
mfrederick
mfrederick 3 days ago

According to the BBC Christians celebrating Easter may have been targeted.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35908512

 +1 / -0
daveysmithy30
daveysmithy30 3 days ago
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3511528/Dozens-mothers-children-52-killed-suicide-bomber-targeted-Christians-celebrating-Easter-park-Pakistan.html

 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago
Targeting children, how low can they get. You can have religion I want no part of it.
 +5 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 3 days ago
Yes it's looking like a deliberate targeting of children and in particular Christian's.
 
brandnew
brandnew 3 days ago
Wow..........😩...just wow.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 3 days ago
Sick sick sick
 +3 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 3 days ago
Now blame the US or the West for this attack. Go ahead and blame the greed for oil the West has. Can't you apologists see they DONT need an excuse? They are determined to kill anything non Muslim and Muslims who fail to follow their twisted fundamentalism. Sick of hearing that fundamentalist terrorism is all due to the West's infringement on their resources. Muslims have to solve this problem and until they do, they are all complacent. It amazes me how they'll come out in the hundreds of thousands globally to violently protest a work of fiction, but barely a peep of protest against what is being done in their religion's name.
 +6 / -0

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Another Attack at least 50 killed
by James Mixon 3 days ago 12 Replies latest 21 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Heaven
Heaven a day ago
There are attacks on Muslims, more than on Christians, by these wackos that the news is not reporting.

 
punkofnice
punkofnice a day ago

I live in the UK. Some years ago, my Dad (R.I.P), was told by a Muslim in his area that if the Mullahs told them to kill the local non Muslims, they'd do it without question.
Kinda makes you think don't it.
 +1 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 21 hours ago

Heaven:
Exactly, fundamentalists are killing far more non-fundamentalists everyday. And thus the reason THEY need to rise up and fight back in the same way the Northern Alliance did against the Taliban. Unfortunately, the majority of Afghanistan supported the Taliban and there was no one charismatic enough to replace Massoud. In that part of the world, fundamentalists vastly outnumber the moderate Muslims.
 

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Topic Summary
christians attack in lahore pakistan.... what the hell is wrong with people..



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Confused: What does the overlapping generation really mean?
by MicaSmith 3 days ago 48 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
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MicaSmith
MicaSmith 3 days ago

Hello:
Can someone help me understand how the WT came up with the overlapping generation theory? I just don't understand it even though I read the information several times. It's bewildering. Does anyone know how persons in the organization accepted this new light when it was released?
I have not been to the Kingdom Hall in over a year, and before that I've had long absences due to neurological challenges. I missed a lot apparently because I knew nothing about the overlapping generation. I wish someone had sent me some info on this from my congregation. Upon reading it, I would have extricated myself from their spiritual asylum.
I copied and pasted the question and answer paragraph I read below:
Source:http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014240?q=overlapping+generation&p=par
18, 19. How may we understand Jesus’ words about “this generation,” and what may we conclude?
18 How, then, may we understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? The generation consists of two overlapping groups of anointed ones—the first is made up of anointed ones who saw the beginning of the fulfillment of the sign in 1914 and the second, anointed ones who for a time were contemporaries of the first group. At least some of those in the second group will live to see the beginning of the coming tribulation. The two groups form one generation because their lives as anointed Christians overlapped for a time.*
________________________________________________________
I feel foolish having been a part of this organization. Who came up with this overlapping theory? It's surreal!

Thank you,
Mica Smith
 +6 / -0
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 3 days ago
So when you say that "I feel foolish having been a part of this organization. Who came up with this overlapping theory? It's surreal!" - do you really want to have an answer, or do you only want to get support for the idea of yours that it is foolish and surreal?

 +1 / -23
tornapart
tornapart 3 days ago
It was this teaching that finally did it for me... I could see it was totally bizarre and the only reason for coming up with it was to prop up their teaching of 1914. I realised it couldn't prop anything up and for me the rest came down like a pack of cards.
 +6 / -0
Gayle
Gayle 3 days ago
Nobody can 'understand' the WT teaching on the "overlapping." Some may say they understand, because of the their peer pressure in org.
 +2 / -0
westiebilly11
westiebilly11 3 days ago
basically, anyone and everyone from the time of Adam till now/armageddon is of the 'same generation'., because no one can be born unless parents alive so all overlap lifelines. Which of course boils down to twaddle masquerading as new light...

 +5 / -0
MicaSmith
MicaSmith 3 days ago

Tornapart:
I read it several times and did not understand how anyone could accept it as something real. It does cause you to question your reasoning and acceptance of other theories. Thanks for your input.
 +4 / -0
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 3 days ago
If you're a Jehovah's Witness, it means you've been had.
 +3 / -0
MicaSmith
MicaSmith 3 days ago

Gayle,
I love what Westiebilly11 said "twaddle masquerading as new light..."
At least I can shed feeling foolish. It's clear that others are having trouble with this theory. It makes no sense.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

Basically its theological bullshit to extend the significance of 1914 , which in itself is theological bullshit.
They assert that its anointed ones and their life span that basically overlap from 1914, who self proclaimed themselves anointed ones only of the JWS faith. The WTS put itself with an anchor chained to itself by imposing what it did concerning 1914. When and if 1914 ever gets dropped so will this overlapping generation nonsense.

 +1 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 3 days ago

Can someone help me understand how the WT came up with the overlapping generation theory? I just don't understand it even though I read the information several times. It's bewildering.

Mica I understand that this teaching came out in 1994, eighty years after 1914 so I presume they had to do something because the Bible says our years are 70 or if we have special mightiness eighty, NWT. So obviously they had to come up with something quick when it got to 1994.
That's how they came up with it.
Does anyone know how persons in the organization accepted this new light when it was released?
Yeah my brother happened to phone me in '94 because he had heard I was pregnant. I asked him about the generation teaching as it was eighty years since 1914 and he said 'we're not serving Jehovah to a date'.
So that's how they accepted it, well the ones who even noticed it.
I had been out five years so didn't know about it. If he had tried to explain that to me I can tell you I would have laughed my head off as I did when I first heard about it here on this forum.


 

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Confused: What does the overlapping generation really mean?
by MicaSmith 3 days ago 48 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
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freddo
freddo 3 days ago

Hi MicaSmith I can tell you WHY the WT came up with the overlapping generation in 2010.
It is because it suits their purpose. The purpose of keeping followers hanging on and justifying their existence as leaders.
The previous explanations of the generation were so obviously wrong that they had to change it for fear of even more people querying their explanation.
The explanation that got everyone who is a witness hooked was the one that told us that the generation that "saw 1914" (originally "with understanding" e.g a minimum age of ten - fifteen years old in 1914; but the "with understanding" got dropped as time ran out) would not pass away.
Even when this explanation was dropped in 1995, some folk clung to the hope that it was still true by telling themselves that a few million round the globe who "saw" 1914 would by no means pass away.
Now we live at a time where those born in 1914 are 102 years old it is obvious to virtually everyone that the old explanation cannot be sustained any longer. Hence the latest new, new one! (Several explanations since 1995)
edited to add: Actually Xanthippe, although the long held explanation was dropped in 1995 the overlapping crap wasn't brought out until 2010. There were two or three other crappy explanations in between!
 +4 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 3 days ago


Yeah my brother happened to phone me in '94 because he had heard I was pregnant. I asked him about the generation teaching as it was eighty years since 1914 and he said 'we're not serving Jehovah to a date'.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A JW Explaining..
,,,,,,,,,,.,,,,,,,Overlapping Generations..
...........https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3f/28/65/3f2865c49dbcaf9f04e618479027a103.jpg
 +4 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 3 days ago
Thanks Freddo I am only going by what I've read on here!
 
MicaSmith
MicaSmith 3 days ago

Hi Finkelstein:
So it is basically a fill in? What you wrote makes sense. You are right they put so much into the whole 1914 thing that they are trying to hold onto it. I really appreciate your response. Thank you.
Hi Xanthippe:
Thank you so much!
The thing is the only persons who brings up these dates or anything relating to when Jesus Christ is coming is the GB. No other organization dwells on that issue but everyone knows its importance. So when you really look at it, we are being urged to serve Jehovah to a date. It's implied.
What I know is the bible says that Jesus Christ will come like a thief in the night, and no human will know when he will come. So they need not present theories as if they have new light from God, that's deceptive.
Cheers.
 +1 / -0
tornapart
tornapart 3 days ago

MicaSmith, you might find this of some help from jwfacts overlapping generation
 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 days ago
It's the biggest load of nonsense the WT have ever produced. The more you try to understand it the less sense it makes. It's as if they formulated pure nonsense as a test just to discover who would accept it and pretend it makes sense. Really, trying to understand the overlapping generation "teaching" will only result in a sore head.
 +5 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago

Why? They could no longer hold on to the 1914 + a human lifetime and they could not come up with anything more imaginative.
I once thought, before this change, that they would simply extend the generation to either the oldest person alive (currently 116 years old - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susannah_Mushatt_Jones) who was born on or before 1914 or the account in Genesis about 120 years being the time limit before the flood.
So the overlapping generations not only shows how desperate they are but how unimaginative they've become. If Freddie the wizard were alive today he would have cooked something up much better than the overlapping generations.
By the way, has anyone on this forum calculated the date in which this overlapping generation is limited to before it becomes falsified or can you have a third overlapping generation?
Image result for animated confused smiley
 +2 / -0
MicaSmith
MicaSmith 3 days ago

Freddo:
WOW!!!
Thank you very much for your explanation. Based on what you wrote it appears that for a very long time they have been toying with the heads of sincere persons. They are basically exploiting the human condition and our collective desire to live under more peaceful conditions.
Wow that really stings. It's unkind. Jesus was kind and loving. They are not.
Thank you.
 +1 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 3 days ago

Now available! The Paradise on Earth! Live forever! Play with Tigers and other dangerous animals. Only $19.95!!!! Time is limited and supplies are short, CALL NOW!
1-800-YOUBEENHAD
 +4 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

If it hasn't been discovered yet by observers that the WTS was founded upon false inaccurate interpretation of the bible derived mostly from late 19th century Adventist Dispensationalism theology, meaning the return of Christ and a new world order is about to come into prophetic fulfillment.
All these alluring pronouncements and derived proclamations did wonderful things for the Watchtower's literature proliferating agenda but it wasn't really strongly supported by the bible or the instructions given by Jesus himself to how his Gospel was to be spread or preached around the world,

 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
can someone help me understand how the wt came up with the overlapping generation theory?
i just don't understand it even though i read the information several times.
it's bewildering.



Related Topics
pandorasbox1914
Overlapping Generation
by pandorasbox1914 2 months ago
Terry
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago
MicaSmith
A Troubling Culture: JW Group Think vs. Individual Critical Thinking
by MicaSmith 7 days ago
freemindfade
Jehovah's Witness Literature Warning Label
by freemindfade 8 days ago
HB
When is a theory 'just a theory'?
by HB 2 months ago



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Confused: What does the overlapping generation really mean?
by MicaSmith 3 days ago 48 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
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LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago
The doctrine is what happens when you get caught lying, but instead of fessing up and admitting you lied, you stack another lie on top of it.
 +4 / -0
prologos
prologos 3 days ago

Even without the overlap, the wt generation theory is wrong. The first century generation did not pass away before the destruction of Jerusalem; but wt says that the anointed generation will pass away before the destruction at Armageddon.
Trouble is, if you say otherwise, question this teaching, it is not just a theory, but truth cast in stone, you will be disfellowshipped.
what does it really mean? It means using the Frederick Franz example, Armageddon would not come until ~ 2075.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

Good description LostGeneration

These pretentious calculated lies were devised to support the preconceived 1914 lie.

In some point in time the GB will say well we are just imperfect men that went too far in expectation of the Kingdom
to come. Which will be another self a facing lie for they knew what the WTS had been doing is cultivating followers (saved Sheep) by making up decisively corrupt but alluring doctrines. 

Weird how Jehovah god had chosen lying charlatans running their own publishing house as his earthly organization.

 +1 / -0
mana11
mana11 3 days ago

It means that when you spent the best part of your life living a lie that proved to be false, they had to make a change to cover their butts so they didn't look stupid.
They came up with ultra stupid, but you are not supposed to understand it, you are supposed to agree as you are a sheep.
If they cannot explain it how can we?

 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

Putting people in boxes as "generations" is convenient but meaningless without context.
Normally we talk about a certain 'generation' in relation to some event or moment in time, like "baby boomers" or "millennials" but there is no set group really. People are being born at a fairly stable rate all the time - whether you belong to some arbitrary grouping based on your year of birth really is arbitrary.
All generations overlap - the generations within your own family are completely out of sync and independent of the generations of other's families although we all share notions of "grandparents" and such but there can be huge differences.
But one thing is certain, when the generation is defined, as in "the generation of woodstock" it means a certain thing.
When "that generation will not pass away" there is no room to interpret it as anything other than what it obviously means unless you have a real reason to add FUD in order to confuse things ... because your previous prophetic claims painted you into a corner.
This generation of WTS leaders really are lying and dishonest ... but of course that means all of them, overlapping since the beginning.
 +5 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 3 days ago



Here is the simplest explanation of 'overlapping generations' without the use of confusing charts!
 +13 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 3 days ago

Why'd they do it? Desperation
Why't they get away with it? They are the shark jumping religion and have gotten away with telling people to die rather than buy a political card or take blood. To DIE if necessary so that they can distribute MAGAZINES! To go to prison rather than be a nurse for the government during a time of war.
They get away with whatever they tell their minions. It's often tragic. This one is just stupid.
 +5 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

The overlapping generation doctrine means that since 1995 the WTBTS has been making up shit as they go along.
The more time passes, the more they have to change positions on just about everything.
DY
 +4 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 3 days ago
The mystery of the holy trinity has a contender in the overlapping generation teaching. Don't think...accept!
 +3 / -0
Pistoff
Pistoff 2 days ago

What WT is trying to do is change the definition of generation to one shared by no one, not even the WT of old.
What they are describing, 'a generation of two groups that overlap' is 2 generations.
As in, the 2 generations in the 'generation gap' of the sixties, the parents and their children.

 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
can someone help me understand how the wt came up with the overlapping generation theory?
i just don't understand it even though i read the information several times.
it's bewildering.



Related Topics
pandorasbox1914
Overlapping Generation
by pandorasbox1914 2 months ago
Terry
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago
MicaSmith
A Troubling Culture: JW Group Think vs. Individual Critical Thinking
by MicaSmith 7 days ago
freemindfade
Jehovah's Witness Literature Warning Label
by freemindfade 8 days ago
HB
When is a theory 'just a theory'?
by HB 2 months ago



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Confused: What does the overlapping generation really mean?
by MicaSmith 3 days ago 48 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
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sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

Since all gens overlap then this addition of the qualifying word "overlapping" can only mean that it gives them the out they needed to make it possible for the "this generation" to go on ...and on indefinitely.
IOW some fancy footwork was needed from the great thinkers known as WT writing department when they got the directive from above to "Make the generation teaching work - asap!"
 +1 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 2 days ago
So what came between the '1914 generation will see the new system' doctrine which finished in 1995 and the indefinite overlapping generations rolled out in 2010?
 
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago

The overlapping generation nonsense is made up to cover up a lie a really big lie, the 1914 fiasco. The rank and file are forced to accept it, don't need to understand it. Its not logical its not rational, its ridicules. That's why they want the rank and file to remain uneducated so there easier fooled and scammed.
This is how you beat and fleece a sheep.
 +2 / -0
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 2 days ago

The made a decision not to abandon 1914. But with 1914 still in the books they needed a way to connect to the current crowd.
I for one am quite impressed with their creativity. I doubt I could have thought of anything as creative.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago

Russell had made other predictions of Christ's coming before 1914. The only reason they clung to 1914 was the coincidental occurance of WWI. They changed their prediction tho and said 'actually, his presence is invisible...but he's here! Believe us!!' So since that time, they've been buying time with different variations on the generation teaching. Desperately looking for ways to string people along and keep that carrot on the stick just out of reach.
They've been successful for 102 years now!! Which is quite a feat when you think about it. Those are some pretty legit manipulation skills.
 +1 / -0
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 2 days ago


◦Desperately looking for ways to string people along and keep that carrot on the stick just out of reach.



While there is desperation in their strategy, they have time on their side. Dead people don't remember. If they can hang on for long enough the past will be forgotten.
 Flag Dislike Like


◦
 +2 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago

Everyone in my family born on or before 1914 is dead. The only relative I have alive now that was born in the 1920's is my Dad and he's failing.
Eventually, the Borg will have to drop the whole 1914/over-flapping generation crap because it just isn't going to fly any longer. It will be interesting to see if they come up with some new piece of garbage they want their members to swallow.





 +2 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe a day ago

edited to add: Actually Xanthippe, although the long held explanation was dropped in 1995 the overlapping crap wasn't brought out until 2010. There were two or three other crappy explanations in between! - Freddo
So what were the two or three other explanations Freddo? Anybody?
 
pixel
pixel a day ago


So what were the two or three other explanations Freddo? Anybody?
Here it is: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/generation.php
Courtesy of JWFACTS:

1897 -– A group of contemporary people 
"“Other uses of this Greek word (genea) prove that it is not used with the significance of race, but in reference to people living contemporaneously.... In other words, the signs mentioned will occur within a generation - epoch in the close of the age.”" – Studies in the Scriptures Vol 4 pp.602,603
1927 –- The anointed 
“"The irresistible conclusion therefore is that Jesus referred to the new creation [the anointed] when he said: “This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled.” This then would be a strong indication that some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon.”" Watchtower 1927 Feb 15 p.62
1951 -– A fixed period of time from 1914 applied to worldly people 
"The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period. So it was on “this generation” that the accumulated judgments were to fall. (Matt. 23:36) This therefore means that from 1914 a generation shall not pass till all is fulfilled, and amidst a great time of trouble." Watchtower 1951 Jul 1 p.404
1995 -– A group of contemporary worldly people 
"Jesus was not departing from his established use of the term “this generation,” which he consistently applied to the contemporary masses with their “blind guides” who together made up the Jewish nation. ... Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics."” Watchtower 1995 Nov 1 pp.14,20
2008 –- The anointed 
"As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day "generation" of contemporaries that will not pass away "until all these things occur." This suggests that some who are Christ's anointed brothers will still be alive on earth when the foretold great tribulation begins." Watchtower 2008 Feb 15 p.24
2010 –- A fixed period from 1914 applied to the anointed 

"He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation." Watchtower 2010 April 15 p.10







 +2 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass a day ago
It means "If you think we came up with baffling bullshit before, you ain't seen nothing yet."
 

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Topic Summary
can someone help me understand how the wt came up with the overlapping generation theory?
i just don't understand it even though i read the information several times.
it's bewildering.



Related Topics
pandorasbox1914
Overlapping Generation
by pandorasbox1914 2 months ago
Terry
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago
MicaSmith
A Troubling Culture: JW Group Think vs. Individual Critical Thinking
by MicaSmith 7 days ago
freemindfade
Jehovah's Witness Literature Warning Label
by freemindfade 8 days ago
HB
When is a theory 'just a theory'?
by HB 2 months ago



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Confused: What does the overlapping generation really mean?
by MicaSmith 3 days ago 48 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
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ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago
It means they can keep this thing going for another 40 years without having to change it again.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice a day ago

The generation(tm) all died, that saw 1914. Armageddon(tm) didn't come. The watchtower corporation is just hanging on by the skin of their teeth to keep people 'in' and contributing assets and money. this is so the governing body can protect their like minded sexual perverts and live as rock stars.
No one NEEDS to understand the overlapping generation(tm) nonsense.
This is a clear case of 'baffle them with bull schlaken' from the corporation.
 
Witness 007
Witness 007 a day ago

Yeah its about contemperaries.....let us confuse you with bullshit....hope you do not notice.
 
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 18 hours ago
Thanks pixel and JWFacts also. You can see how they gradually are leading up to the overlapping nonsense. Seems to me they thought of it back in '95 but had a long term plan to sneak it up on the R+F without them noticing. By all accounts they have succeeded with a lot of them. As for the rest, they ended up here.
 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 18 hours ago

In short what the overlapping generation means is a tritely corrupt religious publishing house attempt to validate previously concocted deceptive lies or false misleading bible interpretations. (1914)

 
Half banana
Half banana 17 hours ago

Mica you realize just how far removed from reality any of this 'generation' talk is when the Bible uses Jesus's (apparent ) words to say, "I tell you this: "There are some of those standing here who will not taste death before they have seen the kingdom of God already come in power". (Mar 9;1)
He meant his generation, those alive when he was. His followers were to be flogged in the synagogues (Mar 13;9) ; it was about Jewish life...he said "When you see the abomination...let those in Judea flee to the hills"...it was about Jewish territory. In Mark 13;30 he said "The present generation will live to see it all".............
Jesus got it wrong because it was religious hype in the first place; an unholy scam for the Jewish peasants who whilst under Roman rule had no other hope but in the miracle-working god-man saviour myth.
The words recorded in the gospels have nothing to do with the twenty first century. Instead they are the scrapings of the barrel from the religious hopes of people long dead but kept alive for the gullible by the doomsday merchants such as the JW org.
The idea of extending Jesus' "generation" to the 1914 generation is a leap to far; then by saying "overlapping generations" is what Jesus meant, is so far beyond reason to be dismissed without consideration as the most pathetic excuse.
As in the first century the only expectation we can have from prophetic pronouncements is total disappointment. JW org has given proof to this.
 +2 / -0
Ding
Ding 17 hours ago

The passage of time made it obvious that the old 1914 generation teaching was wrong.
Of course, the WT doesn't admit it was wrong; they just get "new light."
The overlapping generation teaching is a way of buying a lot more time without abandoning the 1914 date.
The GB deliberately made it confusing for 4 reasons:
1. It is nonsense.
2. If it could be understood, it would be clear it is nonsense.
3. The GB can adjust it to mean anything they want it to mean.
4. Trusting JWs will think it must be profound Bible truth.

 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 16 hours ago

The other thing to consider is that the JWS/WTS was preaching the 1914 doctrine for over 100 years and didn't change it or leave it, that in itself is why the WTS heads are theoretically bound to this doctrine and quantitatively paranoid to drop it altogether.

They may never, they may just keep on saying this generation of people preaching now living .

 
Half banana
Half banana 15 hours ago

(Grammatical error alert! I meant a leap too far in my post above) when referring to applying the 'generation' scripture to the lives of those who saw 1914.
Very clearly the "generation of 1914" was the defining Watchtower statement from Frederick Franz who was baptized as a Bible Student around the year 1914. Self deluded and narcissistic preachers always see the Bible in the light of their own experience and Fred Franz with an ego as big as Yankee Stadium gloried in his private vision of how things should be if he were god.
How crass, how stupid to believe Fred Franz and the scabby Watchtower for all those years. How many millions of lives wasted because of this futile doctrine?
And I agree with you Finky baby, they will in future (if they haven't collapsed completely) just apply the scripture to each succeeding generation as if it was Jesus' intention. Stupidity piled on stupidity.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
can someone help me understand how the wt came up with the overlapping generation theory?
i just don't understand it even though i read the information several times.
it's bewildering.



Related Topics
pandorasbox1914
Overlapping Generation
by pandorasbox1914 2 months ago
Terry
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 3 days ago
MicaSmith
A Troubling Culture: JW Group Think vs. Individual Critical Thinking
by MicaSmith 7 days ago
freemindfade
Jehovah's Witness Literature Warning Label
by freemindfade 8 days ago
HB
When is a theory 'just a theory'?
by HB 2 months ago



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A new article on Gerrit's thinking on "Going to College is like pulling the trigger to our mouth"
by opusdei1972 3 days ago 5 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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opusdei1972
opusdei1972 3 days ago

I have written a new article about how truthful is Gerrit's comparison. As you may know, in 2005 Gerrit Losch gave a talk in which he compared higher education with committing suicide.





In fact, Losch is right in what the Watchtower's doctrine concern. No witness could survive as a witness after attending scientific lectures. For instance, how could you accept the Water Canopy Theory (still supported by the Watchtower Society) after attending university lectures on Geophysics???

Jehovah was responsible for the original watering of the ground by means of a mist arising from the earth, and he established the laws governing evaporation of water and its precipitation as rain. (Ge 2:5, 6; Job 36:27; Am 5:8; see CLOUD; MIST; RAIN.) On the second creative day, God produced an expanse by having some water remain on earth while raising a great quantity high above the globe; the waters above the expanse undoubtedly supplied the water whereby the wicked were later destroyed in the Flood of Noah’s day.—Ge 1:6-8; 7:11, 17-24; Isa 54:9.
These topics I analyzed in my new article in Spanish.
http://jehovismo.com/estudiar-en-la-universidad-es-como-dispararse-una-bala-en-la-cabeza/
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago
Is that talk in the video in Portuguese?
 +1 / -0
opusdei1972
opusdei1972 3 days ago
It's in Italian

 
Listener
Listener 3 days ago

It's great seeing Ttatt written in other languages.
If a four year uni course is like committing suicide then I wonder what four years as a GB member could be compared to, given that they control the minds of over 8 million people.
They recently said that they would not be sending any Bethelites to Uni because they could become too prideful.
There's no reason why they couldn't rotate the GB positions given that it's not the GB members individually that are the FDS but only a group of anointed men when coming together are the FDS.
 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 3 days ago

The governing body are not concerned if they stunt your education. They do not care if you become dependent on the state for handouts because you do not have a career. They are not concerned if you cannot financially cope with your family’s welfare.
Why? Because they forbid anything other than slaving for them!
The GB are the only beneficiaries of this religion and the critical analysis of argument which is required in higher education; kills fundamentalist belief stone dead.
The only thing which sustains the idiotic beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses is enforced ignorance. When will JWs realize it?


 +3 / -0
faithnomore
faithnomore 3 days ago
Higher education is eye opening and often the result is critical thinking. just saying.
 +3 / -0

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Adultery before becoming a JW???
by James Mixon 4 days ago 3 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 4 days ago

A young couple we were very close to, we both got baptized at the same assembly.
I knew the young man well, we went through grade school and high school together.
He served in the military also, he married before shipping out to Viet Nam.
I had heard of rumors about his wife while he was overseas. This guy was a virgin when he got
married, raised in a strict religious family.
Two years of marriage they were baptized as JW. The rumors were our friend and his wife.
OK, two years passed(4 years as JW's) and our friend came to town and dropped by to see him (he the JW
had also heard the rumors). Well he decided to squash the rumors and told his friend, my wife
told me what happen while I was overseas. Well he got an ear full and it just destroyed, he told
our friend to leave and never return and he called his wife (she wasn't home) and the elders.
She and the elders arrived around the same time. He told the elders he want a divorce, the wife
told him she was sorry.
The elder told him, this happen before you became a JW and must try to forgive but you don't
have grounds for a divorce, it's been over 4-5 years since this happen.
I saw the brother( not a JW) a few years back they divorced after 15 years, he told me he could not get over it, (adultery).
But he remarried and is very happy.
But the stupid elder, "this happen before you became a JW", as if adultery is fine if you are not a JW.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

From the JW elders perspective they are only concerned with people's behavior while being associated within the organization and to further extent if you've been baptized in their faith.
Don't be surprised by the fact that is quite common in other religious institutions as well.
Also don't be surprised by the fact that many JW elders were caught in acts of adultery as well pedophilia. 

 +1 / -0
violias
violias 4 days ago
It does not matter if they were jws are not. If he did not know about the adultery he has every right to make a decision about whether to continue the marriage or not. He can choose to forgive or divorce. That is his right. The elders should not have told him what they did b/c they are wrong.
 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Yes ,it was a sad situation. I wonder if she had told him upfront maybe the marriage would
have survived, but the the guy was still coming around even after they became JW's.
 +1 / -0

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GB member in Brussels
by tornapart 4 days ago 5 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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tornapart
tornapart 4 days ago

Don't know if someone else has posted about this but apparently Mark Sanderson was in Brussells for the memorial, Someone on FB with a public profile posted some pics and said he'd turned up in Brussels, that a guy who had been sent to the Bethel there had just got off the metro when the bomb went off. Don't know how true it is but there was a few ooohs ahhhs .. how wonderfuls .... photo
 +4 / -0
nowwhat?
nowwhat? 3 days ago
That's how the GB roll. Fly 1st class to Europe stay at a 5 star hotel. Give 1 talk spend next few days on vacation. All paid for from dedicated funds.
 +5 / -1
millie210
millie210 3 days ago

So there were ohhs and ahhs because a Bethelite got off the train just before the bomb went off?
Evidence of protection from above?
Well then! They must really be amazed at the protection given the Mormon missionary who was not only in Brussels but also in Paris when that attack happened.
He has been all over the news. He has nine lives!
How "spared" he is!
(ohh....ahhh)
 +5 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago
And yet the missionaries who died while on their way to a convention didn't receive protection....
 +4 / -0
millie210
millie210 3 days ago
The fact that there is not enough divine protection to spread across more than one Continent, would not lend credence to an all powerful protection but rather a very limited one.
 +5 / -0
fulano
fulano 3 days ago
Which 5 star hotel was it " nowwhat" ? or just making up?
 

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TRUTH or OPINION--which is it when the Governing Body speaks?
by Terry 4 days ago 19 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 4 days ago




_______________






 WHEN and WHY DID THE GOVERNING BODY SUDDENLY APPEAR?

The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, for all practical purposes, did not really exist as it does today, until a dangerous crisis** had developed in the Watchtower religion at the headquarters beginning of the 1970’s. Did you know that?

Historically, the founder of the Watchtower corporate empire was a men’s clothing entrepreneur named C.T. Russell. This man published and distributed his personal opinions purported to be accurate interpretation of the Scriptures in 6 volumes, Studies in the Scriptures. Russell’s failing as a religious leader is now obvious. He had a fatal attraction to Pyramidology and Chronology which led to overconfidence in his wrong dates.
If God was leading him--it can only be said--God was leading him astray.

So charismatic was Russell’s persona, many Bible Students began looking at him as more than just a man. These people characterized him as the last prophetic messenger. Russell tended to shudder at such an idea. It took him years to warm to the possibility.

In 1909, Russell, in his discussion regarding the viewpoint of his friends and others, stated:
“Our friends reply that they are in no danger of worshiping the Society or anybody else; that their experience in man-worship and sect-worship are things of the past. They declare that they were led out of those forms of idolatry and into the proper reverence and worship of God and his Word by the Society’s publications and no others, and that they have never heard of any teachings which, in so clear and unmistakable language, guard the Lord’s people against every form of man-worship, sect-worship, etc., and that no others so fully and thoroughly set forth the rights and liberties of the Lord’s people as against the enslaving tendencies of the great Adversary and bishops, ministers and elders.
–Watch Tower, October 1, 1909, page 292

Russell found the idea of a religious Organization distasteful as shown here:

In 1915, Russell stated the following in the pages of the Watch Tower:
“On one occasion I was called upon by a minister of the Reformed Church. He wanted to know how I managed my church. I said to him, “Brother __________ I have no church.” He said, “You know what I mean.” I answered, “I want you to know what I mean too. We claim that there is only one Church. If you belong to that Church, you belong to our Church.” He looked at me in surprise. Then he said, “You have an organization; how many members are there?” I replied, “I cannot tell; we do not keep any membership rolls.” “You do not keep any list of the membership?” “No. We do not keep any list; their names are written in Heaven.” He asked, “How do you have your election?” I said, “We announce an election; and any or all of God’s people, who are consecrated and are accustomed to meet with this company, or congregation, may have the privilege of expressing their judgment of who would be the Lord’s preference for elders and deacons of the congregation.” “Well,” he said, “that is simplicity itself.” I then added, “We pay no salaries; there is nothing to make people quarrel. We never take up a collection.” “How do you get the money?” he asked. I replied, “Now, Dr. __________, if I tell you what is the simplest truth you will hardly be able to believe it. When people get interested in this way, they find no basket placed under their nose. But they see there are expenses. They say to themselves, ‘This hall costs something, and I see that free lunch is served between meetings, for those living at some distance. How can I get a little money into this thing, anyway?” He looked at me as if he thought, “What do you take me for –a greenhorn?” I said, “Now, Dr. __________, I am telling you the plain truth. They do ask me this very question, ‘How can [R5730 : page 219] I get a little money into this cause?’ When one gets a blessing and has any means, he wants to use it for the Lord. If he has no means, why should we prod him for it?”
— The Watch Tower, July 15, 1915, pages 218, 219.


The Watchtower was a business from the start having been incorporated as such and vested with a Board of Directors, all of whom followed exactly what Russell advised by rubber stamping and voting in accord with his sole direction.

Just before Russell died, Russell had the following printed in The Watch Tower, August 15, 1916, page 248:
Let it be borne in mind that the Society exercises no authority, makes no criticism, but merely gives advice; and that in the interest of the Lord’s Cause and the Lord’s people.


By the time of his death , Charles Taze Russell had traveled more than a million miles and preached more than 30,000 sermons. He had authored works totaling some 50,000 printed pages, and nearly 20,000,000 copies of his books and booklets had been sold.
Russell was the Director of policy, prophecy and administration in the Watch Tower Society.

In Pastor Russell’s Last Will and Testament, he clearly recorded his directives which did NOT include additional writings or teachings by anybody else, but only reprints of the old ones.


Would Russell’s successor (Judge J.F. Rutherford) continue that policy?
In a word, “NO!”
________________________

“Rutherford soon set about concentrating all organizational authority in his own hands. A skilled lawyer who had served as Russell's chief legal advisor, he combined legal prowess with what opponents undoubtedly saw as a Machiavellian approach to internal corporate politics. Thus he used a loophole in their appointment to unseat the majority of the Watch Tower directors without calling a membership vote. And he even had a subordinate summon the police into the Society's Brooklyn headquarters offices to break up their board meeting and evict them from the premises.” (Faith on the March by A. H. Macmillan, pp. 78-80)
_________________________

“After securing the headquarters complex and the sect's corporate entities, Rutherford turned his attention to the rest of the organization. By gradually replacing locally elected elders with his own appointees, he managed to transform a loose collection of semi-autonomous democratically-run congregations into a tight-knit organizational machine run from his office.”
"Worse Than Waco: Jehovah's Witnesses Hide a Tragedy" copyright © 1993 by David A. Reed

Rutherford left no doubt that he was running the show. He may have left the names of the “Directors” in the Watchtower magazine, but for all intents and purposes, he had fired them from any advisory capacity or voting power.
Rutherford let the Watchtower magazine stand for his own voice and made no mention of Organization as a personified proxy.
"It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communication to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose," (1939 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, p. 85).
Vice President Nathan Homer Knorr inherited the presidency upon Rutherford's death in 1942 but left doctrinal matters largely in the hands of Frederick W. Franz, who joined the sect under Russell and had been serving at Brooklyn headquarters since 1920.

Rutherford wanted attorney Hayden C. Covington and Fred Franz to succeed him. Franz and Knorr were cohorts and the two forced out Covington. With the Judge gone, for all intents and purposes the workload was divided between the two of them. Knorr would run the organized end and Franz would run with editorial abandon into crackpot chronology and prophecy and nobody was allowed to hinder him!
__________________________

In time, Knorr’s leadership blurred into a personified idea of the Society as something more than one man in charge. Lacking the personal magnetism and charisma of Russell and Rutherford, Knorr focused followers' devotion on the 'Mother' organization rather than on himself. Readers were directed to "show our respect for Jehovah's organization, for she is our mother and the beloved wife of our heavenly Father, Jehovah God." (The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, p. 285)


(Note: As the anointed Bride of Christ AND wife of Jehovah, this was an awkward metaphor, indeed. Father and son shared the same beloved wife!)
_______________________

Steadily through the 50’s and 60’s, the idea of a Theocracy and Organization were welded into a rulership on Earth requiring absolute authority and the obedience of all.

"Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 591).
"We cannot claim to love God, yet deny his word and channel of communication," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 591).
______________________

**
Remember that “Crisis” I mentioned in the first paragraph? We are almost at that point.
Fred Franz worked behind the scenes to restore faith in the sect's chronological calculations, a subject largely ignored following Rutherford's prophetic failure in 1925. The revised chronology established Christ's invisible return as having taken place in 1914 rather than 1874, and, during the 1960's, the Society's publications began pointing to the year 1975 as the likely time for Armageddon and the end of the world.
When the publication, Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God was released in 1968 the crisis erupted and nobody had prepared for it!
Nobody was keeping an eye on Freddie Franz!
He was ramping up a bellwether for another GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT!

"Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?" in The Watchtower of August 15, 1968, pp. 494-501. Allowing for a small margin of error, it concludes a lengthy discussion with this thought: "Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbath like thousand-year reign of Christ. . . . It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years." (p. 499)
__________________________________________
Here is where a panicked meeting of the governing body was about to turn into a Governing Body. (Lower case gb into Capital GB)
“This new Governing Body was displayed as further evidence of the sect's being the one true church, but in actuality Nathan Knorr continued to rule Jehovah's Witnesses much as Russell and Rutherford had done before him. That is, until 1975, when Governing Body members began insisting on exercising the powers granted to them in theory but that had never really been theirs in practice. Over the objections of Fred Franz the Body that he had been instrumental in creating actually began governing, so that when Nathan Knorr passed away in 1977 Franz inherited an emasculated presidency.
Franz also inherited an organization troubled by discontent over the obvious failure of his prophecies of the world's end in the autumn of 1975. Even at Brooklyn headquarters little groups meeting privately for Bible study were beginning to question not only the 1914-based chronology that produced the 1975 deadline, but also the related teaching that the "heavenly calling" of believers ended in 1935, with new converts after that date consigned to an earthly paradise for their eternal reward.” "Worse Than Waco: Jehovah's Witnesses Hide a Tragedy" copyright © 1993 by David A. Reed

_______________

The embarrassing silence following the historic failure of Jehovah’s Witnesses
Extreme advertising of a non-event in 1975 stunned the members worldwide. JW’s were holding their collective breath.
To his discredit, Franz concocted silly temporary ad hoc postponement excuses as the Society, in deathly fear, began tightening its anaconda grip.
 In the spring of 1980 they initiated a crackdown on dissidents, breaking up the independent Bible study groups at headquarters, and forming "judicial committees" to have those seen as ringleaders put on trial for "disloyalty" and "apostasy."  "Worse Than Waco: Jehovah's Witnesses Hide a Tragedy" copyright © 1993 by David A. Reed

_____________
The Governing Body (capital letters) was flexing muscles and demanding loyalty publicly now.

1.Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book," (Watchtower, July 1, 1973, p. 402).

2."We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization," (Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981).

______________

As thousands began leaving the Watchtower religion, the excuses and blame-gaming continued.

"Allow No Place for the Devil!", The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, page 19, "Some opposers claim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents say that dates have been set, but nothing has happened. ... Yes, Jehovah’s people have had to revise expectations from time to time.Because of our eagerness, we have hoped for the new system earlier than Jehovah’s timetable has called for it. But we display our faith in God’s Word and its sure promises by declaring its message to others. Moreover, the need to revise our understanding somewhat does not make us false prophets or change the fact that we are living in 'the last days,' ... How foolish to take the view that expectations needing some adjustment should call into question the whole body of truth! The evidence is clear that Jehovah has used and is continuing to use his one organization."
__________________

Today, of course, we see where all that history has led. The Governing Body are now superstars on TV! These usurpers have reinterpreted historic policy and demoted the anointed all over the world as part of the Faithful and Discreet Slave “class.”
The Governing Body alone rule supreme as Kings and Priests on camera.
All the while, these faithful “servants” conveniently ignore the scriptures which point out:

Matthew 20:26,27 (New American Standard) – It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave.
Mark 9:35 – He sat down, and called the twelve; and he said to them, “If any man wants to be first, he will be last of all, and servant of all.”
Mark 10:43 – But it shall not be so among you, but whoever wants to become great among you, will be your servant.
Mark 10:44 – Whoever of you wants to become first among you, shall be servant of all.

But no, alas! These self-aggrandizing slave masters crack the whip as a juggernaut in the spirit of the raucous Judge Rutherford who created martyrs gleefully. There is pretended humility backed up with the iron fist of fear and tyranny.
When the GB speaks or publishes their mere opinion it is clear to all, a prescribed demonstration of worshipful awe and obedience is what is required in return.

This elite group has claimed the Bible entirely for themselves!
1."Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 587).

This elite group has placed themselves in the role of Mediator for all mankind!



In the year 2000 the Board of Directors no longer automatically constituted the Governing Body. At that time a complete changeover occurred in delegating administration away from the President and Board to outside corporate heads. The President of the Society was no longer even a member of the Governing Body. The membership began with seven and has fluctuated to nine, twelve and even eighteen persons over the years.

Today the corporate heads, who are Governing Body members, recommend policies, appointments and changes to suit their needs. Of the six overseeing committees, non-anointed secretaries and assistants may join in the meetings as helpers.
The ship of state is on automatic pilot as the lawyers and corporate advisors occupy themselves with lawsuits, payouts, hush money, destruction of evidence in pedophile hearings, fronting before the camera, cutting back on expenses, rebuilding the empire in their own feckless image.

And what an image it is!
They refer to themselves as Guardians of Doctrine.



In case you missed it, that’s G. O. D.
________________






 +8 / -0
Witness 007
Witness 007 4 days ago
Very good info. TERRY love the direction you are taking with posts. Russell learnt EVERYTHING he spiritually knew INCLUDING 1914 from the Adventists so were they the slave? Someone had the opinion organ Transplants were canabalistic so from 1968 to 1980 Witnesses died or were disfellowshiped till the faithful slave (master) changed the policy. So yes 90 % personal opinions....10% twisted scripture.
 +3 / -0
Terry
Terry 4 days ago

Russell reminds me of my Aunt Florence. She loved to go to 2nd hand stores, Salvation Army stores, DAV stores to rummage through (basically) hand-me-down junk.
Russell liked razzle-dazzle religious junk!
He was gifted with the genius of turd-polishing.
His wonderful wife, Maria (Moe-rye-uh) was a treasure who had gorgeous Spencerian handwriting and was an excellent editor for her hubby.
He was blessed with humble, irrational followers--mainly women.
Then, it all fell apart . . .
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

Well done Terry,  I hope people appreciate the work you do on these write ups.
This elite group has placed themselves in the role of Mediator for all mankind!
I'm suspecting this group wanted to and found it was necessary to identify themselves in this manner because the WTS's doctrines were showing over and over again to be failing or inaccurate, so there was a pressing need to firm up the leadership and instill adamant loyalty to that group and to also rework the doctrines so to speak. ie. overlapping generations .

 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago

And so it highlights this conundrum yet again:
If the society has always been the "Mouthpiece" or "spokesman" for God, then was it God that got it all wrong over the years? Or is the claim to be gods "spokesman" wrong?
 +2 / -0
Terry
Terry 4 days ago

Yes, that is undoubtedly true, Finklestein, the first resort of a tyrant is to identify "Enemies" and create fear of them. Isn't it always the persons who are whistleblowers questioning the authority of the failed leader?
Joseph Stalin and his disciple Sadaam Hussein wielded absolute power absolutely by isolating dissidents, marginalizing them and making an example of how others who may dissent would be treated.
DF-ing is the shun gun pointed at the face of any who might have an individual thought, a doubt, or a sideways glance at the exit.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

He was gifted with the genius of turd-polishing.
He was also gifted with finding things he could sell to the public, alluring perhaps but not substantially supported by outside sources. This is the reason why W Conley the first president of the WTS. finally packed his bags with his money and moved on to support other Christian based organizations where he lived.
 He couldn't support what Russell was doing but nevertheless a slightly corrupt devious lawyer could, out that one lawyers personal endeavor the JWS religion began to flourish, as well all the many dubiously corrupt and conniving doctrines to support the continuing circulation of "his" concocted literature.

Somehow he was able to disregard Russell's instructions laid out in his last Will and Testament and started publishing his own books and magazines through the WTS printing plant ????

Was this because he had Russell's will to himself locked away and wouldn't disclose the Will to anyone ?




 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 4 days ago

Judge" Rutherford helped Pastor Russell draft his Last Will and Testament. As legal advisor this was fitting. Russell named five men who would administrate the Watch Tower Society on an editorial board.
Conventionally, the person who drafts your will is not allowed to BENEFIT in any way from the legacy!
In case replacements were needed for the 5 administrators, Russell named 5 (FIVE) men as suitable replacements.
Here is where the mystery begins! On this will appears the name of a 6th (SIXTH) personJ.F.Rutherford!
Page 60 of the fourth edition of "Crisis of Conscience" states in a footnote at the bottom of the page that: "Russell did not list Rutherford among these five but placed him in the group of five who might serve as replacements if occasion required."


"The will, along with a number of letters and other statements about the administration of the Watch Tower Society, was printed in the December 1, 1916 edition of The Watch Tower. To the positions in the editorial board, Russell’s will had named W. E. Page, W. E. Van Amburgh , H.C. Rockwell, E. W. Brenneisen and F. H. Robinson. Quite curiously, Russell’s will writes about “the five whom I suggest as possibly amongst the most suitable from which to fill vacancies” (emphasis added) and then lists six names: A. E. Burgess, R. Hirsh, I. Hoskins, G. H. Fisher, Dr. J. Edgar and J. F. Rutherford. It is certainly possible, but this author has not found it possible to fully confirm or reject this theory, that one name was added to the list after Russell had written it: Rutherford’s. Whatever the case may be, Page and Brenneisen declined to be on the Board for personal reasons, and Hirsh and Rutherford replaced them .
"The Watch Tower was left in the hands of a committee of five, an editorial committee (there was also a seven man board of directors). Rutherford wasn't on the list of five, he was on the list of "possible replacements". Russell stated "five" and there are six names listed, ironically the Judges name is listed. Anyone who knows their history knows that Russell avoided the Judge like the plague."
_______

Jan S. Haugland September 26, 2000
Hovedoppgave / Master Thesis
Russell specified that the Society was to never publish another journal, meaning they could only publish The Watch Tower, which is why when the Judge began to publish The Golden Age, he did so against Russell's wishes, and he published it under a different name.
Also, Russell requested that all of his writings as well as all articles appearing in the Watch Tower be anonymous.
The Judge somehow made it on the Editorial committee, then weaseled his way onto an 3 man executive committee, being assured that he would be elected president. he wrote up by-laws which gave the president FULL control of the Society, it's assets, EVERYTHING. At the business meetings the by-laws were illegally approved and passed. I say illegally because ONLY the board of directors could pass and approve by-laws, NOT the membership. When the board attempted to rescind those by-laws, Rutherford dismissed and replaced them.
After a few years, the ousted directors gave up the fight, and incorporated the Pastoral Bible Institute in 1918, there was also the Stand Fast Bible Students Association and the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement, as well as others.
___________
The complete Last Will and Testament is here:
http://www.pastor-russell.com/legacy/will_doc.html

 +2 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 4 days ago

Thank you Terry, I enjoy reading your posts.
It set out as a business and it still is a business. As much as I want to believe these GB members have all been honourable religious men wanting to guide Christians to the right path, I just can't. I want to, really...
Russell had to set out as relaxed as possible, as righteous as possible, as democratic as possible to attract members. Rutherford thought he knew better and it sounds like his ego demanded full control over everything. Since then it's a tangle of nutters and power struggles. Learning from previous mistakes and also lack of talent in writing and lack of new material and having to correct bad light, has shown that casting the net wider and having larger numbers running the show is a better way forward. If nothing else, it gives more bodies to point the finger of blame at.
Now we're in the corporate era and the age of where blame means lawsuits! So, devolved management is the new order of the day. In effect does this not mean that the president of the Watchtower would be responsible for any lawsuits filed against Watchtower? That president still exists, his name is on the money end of the business, Watchtower. So if say they had multiple cases against them and they wanted to shut up shop, in effect it frees-up the GB to stay open for business with Watchtower mark II looking after the ''business' end with Watchtower mark I, in liquidation. Nothing changes, good idea, hide the money, let's sell up, tuck it away and build cheaper HQ's.
But what of the teachings? Why has it gone from Russell's 'open-door' policy to full blown business cult? Was that the plan all along? I think so...
Was it not Russell's uncle who set up Skull and bones? His uncle wanted to be a minister too! Did not Russell have a fascination with teachings found in the illuminate? Did Russell not print illuminate wording and references all over his literature? He's in the illuminate graveyard, no? and as the years have ticked by sure, the pictures of illuminate symbols have subsided and they've tried to get away from the old pyramids and such but they've clung ever closer to teachings that resonate with the illuminate; refusing the emblems of Christ, child sacrifice both sexually and murder, human sacrificing with no-blood policy, secret meetings in all ranks, mind control techniques, dumbing down of followers, dodgy business dealings with parties of conflicting interests, instilling fearful, unforgiving, judgemental attitudes, introducing ranks, safeguarding and rewarding criminals, misdirecting worship to false G.O.D. ie. themselves, theocratic warfare a.k.a. lying, setting up multiple corporations and moving money until it's untraceable, to name just a few. JEHOVAH, the name illuminate use, WATCHTOWER, illuminate word and many more words. THE NEW WORLD translation of the holy scriptures! The new world in itself is a concept which the illuminate has as it's aim. Zion's watchtower? awake???
I think you see who they really are, no?
Sorry Terry... I got a little carried away there:)))
 
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 3 days ago
Wow, this thread is totally blowing my mind..... Thank you Terry and all who commented. I can add nothing except that I read here to reinforce in my own mind what a sham all this is. The organization, the Bible itself and even the idea of a loving caring all powerful God. I do believe something had a hand in creating all this, a "first cause" but other than that there is simply zero evidence of a kind benevolent being trying to guide us...... The Bible? Yeah, it has some good points but I'll be damned if any of it is "heavenly" it's merely wisdom gained through age and experience. It's all a sham. Religion in itself is a sham. The idea of God....well as sentient beings who know we will die we seek some sort of solace from the idea of eternal blackness so we most likely invented the idea of God as a protection. I mean if God doesn't exist and our 70 years are simply futile then what is the point? Why carry on at all? Why not just end it now? Anyway I'm digressing. Thanks all. This whole thing blows my mind, and it blows my mind that I never saw it as a R&F member for so many years.....
 

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TRUTH or OPINION--which is it when the Governing Body speaks?
by Terry 4 days ago 19 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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jwleaks
jwleaks 4 days ago

So charismatic was Russell’s persona, many Bible Students began looking at him as more than just a man. These people characterized him as the last prophetic messenger.
The Laodicean Messenger from Revelation.






Well written Terry.
You wrote in a comment:
Russell specified that the Society was to never publish another journal, meaning they could only publish The Watch Tower, which is why when the Judge began to publish The Golden Age, he did so against Russell's wishes, and he published it under a different name.

Technically the Watch Tower Society never published another journal, they merely hold the copyright. Rutherford circumvented this part of Russell's will by using a corporation he himself set up, the People's Pulpit Society (later name changed to Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York), to print and publish.
 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

 I mean if God doesn't exist and our 70 years are simply futile then what is the point? Why carry on at all? Why not just end it now? Anyway I'm digressing. Thanks all. This whole thing blows my mind, and it blows my mind that I never saw it as a R&F member for so many years.....
___________
We only get the wrong and scary ideas when we ask the wrong questions and accept the easy wrong answers!
If we are very lucky--life is what we make of it. Barring accidents or bad luck, we can build a wonderful life in pretty much the same way a wonderful house is built. It takes planning and hard work and an excellent location.
I look at the idea of GOD dispassionately now.
How could an intelligent Supreme Being not go insane floating in the middle of nothingness for zillions of eons?
Then, unable to NOT exist--incapable of suicide--he creates dinosaurs for millions of years and watches them eat each other?
See what I mean? Silly!
There are enough wonderful people in this world who help others with kindness and generosity that we can emulate and become useful to others as well. There is nothing more satisfying than reaching out to a person in need. You can visit hospitals, volunteer, get involved in community charities--the list is endless. Let's face it--life is not all about ourselves. It's just hard not to become occupied with tickling the fancy of a super-invisible-deity and hoping he'll give us flowers and wine forever.
Silly, like I said :smile:
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

I guess one could say the WTS expressed its own opinion of " The Truth " .

The WTS. and its leaders have spent decades pointing out other Christian based faiths as being false interpretive teachers of the bible and the themselves as true and accurate interpretive teachers of the bible , that's why God has supposedly chosen them by their own acknowledgement.
If one really examines the bible with an open critical mind we can see the WTS made up a whole slough of false teachings on its own, much concerning Jesus's heavenly throne positioning (1914) , the professed End Times , the disregard of Jesus's own admonishing for his true followers to not make a time on god's own sacred time, the no blood doctrine etc. The WTS's opinions went recklessly away from the bible on many instances.

It would appear that the WTS leaders were bent onto setting up their own earthly Kingdom as it were with all the assuming power and control unto themselves and forgot about the bible's instructions for preaching the Gospel. 

 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Being a JW is like having a Microsoft operating system. The updates keep coming to plug the holes.
(I'm really enjoying the liberation of my Chromebook! Solid state drive is like Warp Factor drive:smile:
 
atomant
atomant 3 days ago
The manmade and self appointed GB are a problem within themselves and this has a ripple effect right through the organization.The members of this sect need to start asking questions and stop being sheeple yes sir no sir.

 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

The problem is atomant is that questioning is strongly looked upon as disloyalty and evil, this is Jehovah's chosen organization after all so the power is there to control dissension and elders are on a constant watching and listening for any vocable questioning of doctrines.
In the JW faith there is an overwhelming presence of fear on many engaging levels.

The WTS uses and emulates the same aggressiveness that the ancient Hebrews did to people who voiced any discretionary apostasy, shut them up by killing them if necessary.
The WTS cant kill people due to secular laws but they can identify certain people and place a shunning policy abruptly over them as a means of enforceable punishment.
Fear drew in the people ( Armageddon soon ) now fear sustains abstract obedience to the doctrines and any directives that are created by the WTS's leaders. 

 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Okay Mr. Anointed Governing Body Elder, tell me EXACTLY
Q: How you KNOW what Jehovah wants "channeled" into the Watchtower?
1. J. F. Rutherford, Preparation , Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1933, page 64, 67, "Enlightenment proceeds from Jehovah by and through Christ Jesus and is given to the faithful anointed on earth at the temple, and brings great peace and consolation to them. Again Zechariah talked with the angel of the Lord, which shows that the remnant are instructed by the angels of the Lord. The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones ... Those of the remnant, being honest and true, must say, We do not know; and the Lord enlightens them, sending his angels for that very purpose."
2. Watchtower , December 1, 1933, page 364,
"Without doubt these angels are delegated by the Lord to convey his instructions to the members of his organization on earth. Just how this is done is not necessary for us to understand."
________________________________
Question: Who should genuine Christians worship according to this perfect "Truth" comes straight from Jehovah through YOU, His mouthpiece?
1. Watchtower , November 15, 1939, page 339: "Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah"
2. Watchtower 1954 Jan 1 p.31: " "Should we worship Jesus?
Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven.
___________________________________
Thank you for obscuring our previous confusion!
 
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Early in history, humans made humble offers to the gods to curry favor and (perhaps) to bribe them.
OFFERINGS of food, prayers and even blood were used to convince the supernatural realm of a sincere desire to negotiate favor and protection.
We all know this already, don't we?


If a human being has the desire to worship God, what could possibly stand in the way?
_______________________________
STEP ONE: Wooing a deity : offer something to God in return for a benefit.
_______________________________
It didn't take long before some very smart people decided to take advantage.
A new job description was invented to fill a need: THE GO-BETWEEN.
What could be better than having an expert working for you as a negotiator in your efforts to persuade the gods?
Shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, magi, witches, and Priests suddenly created for themselves a cushy, powerful job description!
INTERCESSORS could make the claim for themselves: "GOD will only communicate through me."
A little fast-talking, magic, mumbo-jumbo combined with planting FEAR worked wonders to get gullible, superstitious people to listen and believe.
________________________________________________
STEP TWO: WORK THROUGH A HOLY MOUTHPIECE
__________________________________________
How did this con job work?
Easy!
Instead of making your offering or your sacrifice or your prayer petition DIRECTLY to your favorite feared deity---you gave it to GOD'S OFFICIAL INTERCESSOR: the Priest!
In Israel, a highly profitable job was held by the Levites. You brought them only your finest (they were no fools!) unblemished sacrifices and the Levite
performed the mumbo-jumbo ON YOUR BEHALF.
Why couldn't you do it yourself?
Oh no-o-o-o-o! That would be dangerous because--you see--there were lots and lots of detailed regulations called KOSHER laws. Only the official priests
knew how to avoid breaking these ridiculous laws! It was so-o-o-o complicated--better leave the job to professionals, or else!
**
What happened was this:
You brought your sacrifice and the work was done FOR YOU. You were allowed to believe YOU WERE FORGIVEN by your God.
Peace of mind for you and lots of delicious meat for the Levites!
The Levites could turn around and sell or trade the blessed products for their own benefit. NICE BUSINESS, eh?
_______________________________
STEP THREE: Establish a sense of FEAR and GUILT and lay on complicated rules, regulations and laws!
___________________________
What prevented skeptics from accusing the Go-Between of "fraud" and petty larceny?
That's easy!
The job of Holy Mouthpiece carried with it an insurance policy when things didn't go so well. Instead of blaming your local Holy-Joe, the Holy-Joe
could turn it around and use a disaster against the people.
GOD PUNISHED YOU for too little faith!
How did this con game work?
If things go well: it is because the Holy Man is doing a good job!
If things go disastrously: it is because the people are faithless and needed punishment.
(A side bonus: more sacrifices and more trust in the Holy Joe were demanded!)
______________________________________
STEP FOUR: TAKE NO BLAME, BUT ACCEPT ALL THE CREDIT
___________________________________
When the Romans destroyed the Priest business for the Jews what happened to the Holy Mouthpiece business?
Christianity went through hard times for about three hundred years.
Why?
Christians needed no "priests" but only prayer and a penitent heart to obtain favor with God.
Yipes!
Things were back to how it was in primitive society, with each person trying to obtain favor (using the magic word: "In Jesus' name . . ."
Eventually, the con job began anew, however. The Christians were running around martyring themselves and disagreeing over what Jesus
was or how things should be done.
THE CHURCH came along under the unifying authority of the Roman Emperor, Constantine.
A new swindle was rigged!
NEW RULES were drafted, crafted and enforced under a hierarchy of HOLY MOUTHPIECES! The Pope and the Priests and the Cardinals stepped in.
Lone Ranger Christians were no longer permitted!
You could ONLY be forgiven if the Magic was performed.
What Magic?
The Priest could magically change wine into the BLOOD of Christ and the holy wafer into the FLESH of Christ.
A new kind of perpetual SACRIFICE SCAM with go-between hucksters went into business!
If you didn't take care of your local Church and Priest, no magic forgiveness for you, Buddy!
____________________________
STEP FIVE: DON'T FORGET TO TIP YOUR HOLY WAITRESSES!
______________________________
Christianity was so simple for almost one thousand five-hundred years. You went to Mass. You took the magic blood and flesh, you confessed your sins and the holy-mouthpiece Priest told you to say your "Hail Mary" prayer and sometimes you did penance.
But, the Chruch and the Priests got greedy, greedier, and greediest.
The Holy-Mouthpiece business corrupted awfully.
How awful?
So awful, even the ignorant peasants knew they were being screwed by crooked Priests!
How did the scam work?
You went to the Priest and paid him a nice fee and the Priest granted you a "holy indulgence". In other words, GOD LOOKED THE OTHER WAY as you committed adultry, or stole, or killed or . . .
__________________________________
STEP SIX: BECOME SO CORRUPT EVEN IDIOTS CAN TELL THEY'RE BEING TRICKED
__________________________________
Well, an APOSTATE monk named Martin Luther threw a real monkey wrench into the scam of the Holy-Mouthpiece racket.
Apostate Luther posted on the Internet of his day (the door of the Cathedral) a list of CORRUPT PRACTICES for everybody to see.
Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!
Don't you know there was lots of disfellowshipping (Excommunication)?
Oh yes!
But, corrupt Holy-Mouthpieces don't like being exposed. Oh no.
A BIG CRACKDOWN was about to commence the likes of which would make history!
________________________________-
STEP SIX: STOP APOSTATES NO MATTER WHAT!
_________________________
Have you ever heard of the INQUISITION?
The Church fought back hard against APOSTATE critics. They appointed Judicial Committees to root out apostate disloyalty.
Inquries were made! All so-called faithful Christians were required to report anybody suspected of apostasy.
Suspects were rounded up and treated . . . harshly!
____________________________________
STEP SEVEN: DEMAND LOYALTY OR ELSE!
_______________________________
And so it went.
By the time we work our way through history we see a pattern over and over.
A simple believer in God is not allowed to worship privately. Oh no.
A gimmick is used to instill doubt and fear and rules are made to require ORTHODOX worship under the authority of some nitwit who claims
to be the HOLY-MOUTHPIECE.
This scam has found a particular instance among Jehovah's Witnesses.
It is called the GOVERNING BODY.
The GB will not allow Christians any private conscience to worship Jehovah.
They have claimed unto themselves THE TRUTH. Everybody else's ideas of worship are labeled false and devilish.
THE GOVERNING BODY will not listen to anybody's thoughts, ideas, or opinions EXCEPT THEIR OWN.
For these 2/3 majority vote versions of TRUTH they demand absolute LOYALTY . . . or else.
The GB don't even listen to other members of the anointed!
They have no humility because they are scammers, frauds and flim-flam artists.
The GB are working the oldest con-game in history as THE MOUTHPIECE OF GOD
__________________________
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

Well written, Terry.
Ironic that the Governing Body, a group formed to - for all intents and purposes - keep one guy's increasingly unhinged ideas from too deeply undermining the WTS's credibility...
...ultimately undermined said credibility themselves, as a direct result of the increasingly ruthless tactics used to keep that credibility from being undermined.


 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

All of the GB men and the founding presidents of this organization were guided by their own ignorance and their subsequently acquired delusions of whom they self identified themselves as.
One of the head leaders of god's solemnly chosen earthly organization out of 8 million people sounds pretty good.

That's quite the positional power for an average guy to perceive and once its realized all of what that position contains as far as financial support, travel around the world to further self support their lofty positions and it gets even more alluring.

Listening to most of the talks given by the GB today and you can still see ignorance, imposing delusions and self supporting corruption, emotive fear mongering, all exercised to sustain what they are consuming. 

 

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Topic Summary
when and why did the governing body suddenly appear?.
the governing body of jehovah’s witnesses, for all practical purposes, did not really exist as it does today, until a dangerous crisis** had developed in the watchtower religion at the headquarters beginning of the 1970’s.
historically, the founder of the watchtower corporate empire was a men’s clothing entrepreneur named c.t.



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CLAM - 24th March 2016 (Video Vignette)
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 4 days ago 9 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 4 days ago
Video - "Use Insight When Comforting Others"
This was a WT contrived video of a sister who was widowed a year ago, and turns to members of the BoE after a meeting in the kingdom hall in a distraught emotional state accompanied by suicidal thoughts. Two members of the BoE saw her in her own home later that day.
She conveyed that she wanted her life back - that her heart had been ripped out. The elder acknowledges that "You and Dan had a wonderful relationship". The elder went on to describe how Joseph's father continued weeping for his son. He then added that Jehovah would ocntinue to support the sister, and one way this support is manifest is by means of the BoE! For the purpose of this video vignette, the elder was named Bro Shephard! The video showed two of the BoE seeking verses and a magazine preparatory to the home visit, to strengthen the distraught sister to be an integrity keeper.
When meeting at the sister's home, she disclosed that she had troubles with the house, and that she didn't want to go on any more. She stated that she was minded to turn on the car ignition in the garage and end it all. The elder briefly acknowledged her depression and related how Job was a target of Satan. The sister stated that Job was not as messed up as I am. The elder then read Job 6:2,3. He highlighted Job's "wild talk". Elder comparing this "wild talk" to the sister's disclosure of self harm via the car in the garage. The elder stated that an integrity keeper doesn't give in to "wild thoughts". He appealed to the sister to treat such a pattern as an immoral thought. He advised the sister to repeatedly recite that she is an integrity keeper.
The elder then moved on to sciptural verses for grief, and referred to Jeremiah 29:11,12. He stressed that the focus should be on future hopes and not calamity. He gave the sister an asignment to memorise and repeat the two verses out loud. The sister then rose up to get cookies to accompany the elders' coffee.

OPINION:
The CLAM brochure under the heading "Living as Christians" gave the following instructions... "...invite comments on how the two brothers were good examples of how to give encouragement when someone expresses anguish over the death of a loved one." The purpose of the video vignette therefore seems to be another in the example of the GBoJW endeavouring to augment the hegemony of BoE's with the implicit message of distressed individuals approaching the BoE solely. In the brochure, and in the video, there is no mention whatever of what point a distressed individual may need to arrive at in then obtaining professional help. No guidance for BoE about the application of modesty on their part and thus offering the sister practical help in approaching professional services, rather than seeking to manage the situation themselves. The visiting elders did not explore with the sister, her disclosure of wanting her life back and that her heart had been ripped out. No catharsis whatever! A significant omission.
The sister in the vignette, not only had suicidal thoughts, but also a plan to carry out the thought (indication of intent). That the BoE then respond in the realm of morality only serves to magnify any feelings of guilt held by the sister and could enhance risk rather than mitigate it. The sister briefly mentioned problems with her house - this was not responded to at all. Another omission. The elders entering into the realms of morality is an act of judgementalism and cruelty. This sister is living on her own, lost her husband a year previously and is in a situation where her mental state is deteriorating due to issues not being assuaged or otherwise being in receipt of help. The approach of the two elders was a missed opportunity. That the video does not contextualise the risk (distress, loss, isolation) to show that the risk of self harm is significant, is an indication of incompetence to put it mildly.
Were the sister to have been encouraged and supported to obtain professional help, she would have been offered a thorough assessment, crisis support, counselling, treatment, social support with the house difficulties alluded to, and bereavement counselling. She would have been in receipt of frequent and supportive visits by knowledgeable and trained persons. A plan would have been agreed to assuage her isolation. She may even have been offered several days supportive respite care by an organisation specialising in helping individuals in a state of suicidal crisis.
That the GBoJW has hitherto shown this video at the elders "school" as a template for adequate response is deeply worrying to all professionals who are mental health / psychiatric professionals. It mirrors the unspoken disdain which the GBoJW seems to have for public health and welfare services in that a victim of child abuse is never advised to seek help from child welfare departments. This vignette of a suicidal sister similarly seems to reinforce the idea that such crises be managed "in house" so to speak.
The vignette also assumes competence on the part of the BoE to deal with such a complex, traumatic, and risky situation. It assumes that the behavioural profile of the BoE is one in which individuals would have the confidence and trust to approach them in a distraught state. This is far far removed from my experience. It would be the course of wisdom for elders to acknowledge their limitiations and support individuals in gaining professional help rather than abandoning modesty and seeking to resolve issues themselves. After all, elders are not trained mental health / psychiatric professionals as a WT put it some years ago!
Lastly, when comments from the audience were invited at my congregation, I noted the paucity of hands and the brevity of those who did answer. Perhaps a statement of sorts was being made!
 +8 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 4 days ago

The JW org is first and foremost a Bible quoting religion. They imagine that by quoting scriptures and examples from the Bible it is the key to answering every problem.
I agree NK this is dangerous and foolish.
The 'sister' in the vignette is conditioned to expect the sort of comfort recommended (Biblical examples) but in the real world grief and loss is not healed by unqualified help from spiritual leaders of the congregation. As you say, they need professional treatment.
The reluctance to do this on the part of the org. I think, is because they imagine "scripture quoting" is a panacea and secondly the GB will not relinquish their total control over a member to outsiders, even if this means they do not get the right help and suffer more as a consequence.
I do hope the lack of enthusiasm for the JW org's prescription was a general indicator for lack of loyalty to the heartless, self interested governing body.






 +2 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 4 days ago

Really enjoy your writing, Nicholaus. Excellent points all around.
My own thoughts on the ignorance of the Org regarding suicidal people. They just don't get it.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/224444/gutless-wts-leadership-from-confidentiality-letter

 +5 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 4 days ago

Why have the GB decided to release this video that was previously for the Elder's only? I know that it has been heavily criticized. It will be interesting to see if the GB are familiarizing the sheep with this video because of some future or current "persecution."
They are masters at getting in front of issues. We will have to wait and see.
DD
 +3 / -0
fukitol
fukitol 4 days ago

The video is the lowest of the low as a propaganda piece in training elders to callously focus a publishers mind, no matter what the suffering or harm, on loyalty to the organisation as the panacea.
Someone should get an expert on the subject to review it and state their opinion publicly, such as a senior mental health professional.
It's probably been released to discourage all the "wild thoughts" increasing numbers of JWs are having lately about wanting to quit their horrible religion and lifestyle, especially with the child abuse scandals and other rotten fruitage being exposed. The Society wants them to chant "I will reject wild thoughts about leaving. I am an integrity keeper."
It's truly OrwellIan.
 +5 / -0
millie210
millie210 4 days ago

Nicholaus, your review of the video was most excellent.
I was especially struck by what you said about how the Org puts the whole context of this topic in to a morality frame.
Grief is highly fluid and merely "shaming " a person in to thinking they have failed in an integrity test if they are overwhelmed in grief is appalling.
Then there is the fact that this video required writers, editors and researchers to make a script. Then elders who could memorize and execute that script for filming (and the end product is sill offensive).
It begs the question, how many overworked, stressed out elders are going to be able to do that in the real world?
Dont even ask about the elders who dont give a flip in the first place...
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago
This video is appalling in its failure to address the real problems at hand!
 +2 / -0
jwleaks
jwleaks 4 days ago

It's quite possible this video was NOT made with the sister's fictitious situation in mind, i.e. loss of husband in death for which the JWs are most likely not to blame. This video will more likely be used to deal with the main problem within the JWs, namely:
- a JW marriage mate leaving, possibly an elder running off with a sister he has been comforting;
- A JW marriage mate, or non-believer, leaving as they see the increase in JW delusion and fanaticism (think of Geoffrey Jackson's delusional appearance before the ARC);
- a JW marriage mate getting d'fed (for whatever reason the local BOE or WT legal department can make up);
- a JW marriage mate seeing the TTATT and becoming a so-called "apostate";
- a JW marriage mate or family member completing suicide themselves;
- a single JW female reaching old age with no husband or children to care for her and realizing she has nothing because she stayed single all her adult life to put kingdom interests (read "Watchtower") first because "the end is so close";
- a JW marriage mate turning out to be a child molester.
 +4 / -0
Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 days ago

Good evening LostGeneration:
I read your link to your OP. I was quite surprised (but I know I shouldn't have been) to see that the advice to BoEs in cases of suicide/threatened/attempted is to make contact with their legal desk. Such advice is the hallmark of a cold fish. This further augments my opinion that it is best for distressed individuals to obtain help from other than BoEs. As you say - they just don't get it. Both then at the time of your OP, and now! They are not learning anything!
 
Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 days ago

Good evening millie210
You mention overworked and stresssed out elders. A good point. For an individual to be able to help another such as the sister in the video vignette, that elder would need to be aware of the magnitude of the role he is about to engage in. That elder also needs to be self-aware. If he is overworked and stressed out he is at risk of polluting the interface with the sister by inadvertently off loading his own problems, or by missing vital cues. Even although the elders in the vignette did not look at all overworked or stressed out, nevertheless they did not attend to some of the issues the sister raised. But, they're not mental health professionals and on the one hand they might be excused for their omission. On the other hand they might not be excused as they're supposed to be models of modesty, which also includes knowing their limitations! If elders don't know their limitations, then it would be good if congregation members came to be aware of same and avoided approaching the elders if possible. One last point is that health professionals are bound to confidentiality codes which elders are not! I personally would share nothing with BoEs!
 

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James Mixon
12
Another Attack at least 50 killed
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
christians attack in lahore pakistan.... what the hell is wrong with people..

Heaven
punkofnice
SecretSlaveClass
a day ago
MicaSmith
48
Confused: What does the overlapping generation really mean?
by MicaSmith in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
can someone help me understand how the wt came up with the overlapping generation theory?

i just don't understand it even though i read the information several times.

it's bewildering.

Ding
Finkelstein
Half banana
16 hours ago
berrygerry
3
Old Watchtower Volumes Online - Where Are They?
by berrygerry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
i had in the past seen a website (possibly an archived site) which had pdf's of old wt and awakes.. i'm looking 60's, 70's, 80's.. anyone know of such a site?.

Listener
disfellowshipped1
Atlantis
3 days ago
prologos
4
instant insight on religion during anti-witnessing
by prologos in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
saw a well dressed couple in a snack area this saturday, and approached to ask what the occasion was , hoping to talk to a jw couple counting time during fs break.

no, it was people waiting for a funeral.

so i said: "condolences, well you are following a long tradition since the very first burial of abel--right?

prologos
Vidiot
prologos
2 days ago
opusdei1972
5
A new article on Gerrit's thinking on "Going to College is like pulling the trigger to our mouth"
by opusdei1972 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
i have written a new article about how truthful is gerrit's comparison.

as you may know, in 2005 gerrit losch gave a talk in which he compared higher education with committing suicide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjh4qvmxyhy.

Listener
Half banana
faithnomore
3 days ago
James Mixon
3
Adultery before becoming a JW???
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
a young couple we were very close to, we both got baptized at the same assembly.. i knew the young man well, we went through grade school and high school together.. he served in the military also, he married before shipping out to viet nam.. i had heard of rumors about his wife while he was overseas.

this guy was a virgin when he got.

married, raised in a strict religious family.. two years of marriage they were baptized as jw.

Finkelstein
violias
James Mixon
4 days ago
tornapart
5
GB member in Brussels
by tornapart in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
don't know if someone else has posted about this but apparently mark sanderson was in brussells for the memorial, someone on fb with a public profile posted some pics and said he'd turned up in brussels, that a guy who had been sent to the bethel there had just got off the metro when the bomb went off.

don't know how true it is but there was a few ooohs ahhhs .. how wonderfuls .... photo.

stuckinarut2
millie210
fulano
3 days ago
Terry
19
TRUTH or OPINION--which is it when the Governing Body speaks?
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
when and why did the governing body suddenly appear?.

the governing body of jehovah’s witnesses, for all practical purposes, did not really exist as it does today, until a dangerous crisis** had developed in the watchtower religion at the headquarters beginning of the 1970’s.

historically, the founder of the watchtower corporate empire was a men’s clothing entrepreneur named c.t.

Terry
Vidiot
Finkelstein
2 days ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
9
CLAM - 24th March 2016 (Video Vignette)
by Nicholaus Kopernicus in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
video - "use insight when comforting others"this was a wt contrived video of a sister who was widowed a year ago, and turns to members of the boe after a meeting in the kingdom hall in a distraught emotional state accompanied by suicidal thoughts.

two members of the boe saw her in her own home later that day.she conveyed that she wanted her life back - that her heart had been ripped out.

the elder acknowledges that "you and dan had a wonderful relationship".

jwleaks
Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus
2 days ago
Listener
24
New Light - Two Sticks in Ezekiel - July 2016 Watchtower
by Listener in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
ezekiel 37:15-17 prophesies about two sticks being joined together to become 1. one stick represented the two tribe kingdom of judah and the other stick represented the 10 tribe of israel (ephraim).

the article explains how the coming together of these two sticks meant the reuniting of these tribes in 537 bce.the modern day fulfillment was previously taught to mean that the anointed had once again come together in unity in these last days.the july watchtower now explains that one stick, the stick of judah, represents the anointed and the other stick, the stick of ephraim, represents the other sheep.

they further explain that since 1919 god's people have gradually reunited to become one flock.they are now saying that the other sheep are represented by 10 tribes of israel.

sir82
Phizzy
Room 215
2 days ago
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atomant
2
Remember jesus turning over the table of the money changers?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
l can understand why he did it because the money changers were charging high rates to trade their money for acceptable temple money.what a fine example in self control that sets.with respect to the money issue sounds a bit like the gb and their money grab (even childrens pocket money).

.

.

elbib
prologos
2 days ago
atomant
26
What was jesus doing for the first 30 years of his life?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
30 years is a long time in the life of a human yet little is written about this time frame,l wonder why?

SecretSlaveClass
GoneAwol
Witness 007
a day ago
Terry
26
Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Vidiot
Terry
Phizzy
16 hours ago
James Mixon
20
Anyone eat bunnies on Easter????
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
we eat turkey on thanksgiving why not rabbits on easter???

what's your traditional meal.

for easter??

FayeDunaway
brandnew
Darkknight757
2 hours ago
Terry
24
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
setting the scene.

pastor russell died in 1916. those who had 'followed' him were known pejoratively as russellites.

you could call it a 'cult of personality' if you wanted to sneer.

Terry
OnTheWayOut
Finkelstein
21 hours ago
hoser
5
July 2016 study watchtower more materialism bashing and the end is nigh!
by hoser in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
wowsers!

they are really hitting it now.

don't strive for a cell phone or a motorcycle.

fukitol
JWdaughter
OneEyedJoe
3 days ago
Brokeback Watchtower
7
A Conversation with my Mom about Anthony Morris, Spanx, and Tight Pan
by Brokeback Watchtower in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
you get them ac.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhj4vyo6myu.

Vidiot
contramundum
problemaddict 2
2 days ago
Watchtower-Free
12
Jehovah's Witnesses January 2016 Sunday 2nd talk by CO "You are what you eat "
by Watchtower-Free in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt3d72rd1wm.

sowhatnow
Tenacious
sparky1
2 days ago
Atlantis
8
JW-Facts--Here is that Circuit Assembly Financial Report Form you wanted!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
our "spy" was able to get in and get out undetected.

we thank him/her for their kindness and courage.

remarks were made that the assembly this person attended only kept the women in their place.. i remarked to this person that one of these days the watchtower is going to "put down" the wrong woman who is going to clean their clock with a massive discrimination lawsuit!.

rebelfighter
Mephis
JeffT
2 days ago
biblexaminer
4
I'm at the Watchtower Study and I have a few questions.
by biblexaminer in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
as far as the "memorial" goes... .

should an anointed follower of jesus share the cup with unbelievers?

would the cup not be polluted by an outsider, invited in to a sacred thing?.

biblexaminer
millie210
biblexaminer
3 days ago
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punkofnice
20
Memorial attendance
by punkofnice in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
my spies seem a bit confused.

here, in this neck of the woods 3 congregations had 3 separate sittings.

the attendance seemed to be swelling.

steve2
dogon
punkofnice
5 hours ago
atomant
39
Are you ready for armageddon?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
just imagine the panic.disbelief.oh my god they were right.then you pee in your pants.what will l do?the plea for forgiveness.please let me through.l promise l''ll change.l didn;t mean what l said on that jw.com site.l was jokin.then you wake up it was only a dream.disbelief turns to relief.

but it could happen..

Ucantnome
naazira
mana11
6 hours ago
Randy M.
Approachability-Requirement for JW Elders?
by Randy M. in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 2 days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qefmr-xd2zo.

Terry
15
Jehovah’s Witnesses are Taught to Lie but to then Lie about Lying
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
jehovah’s witnesses are taught to lie but to then lie about lying.

first off, let’s define what it means to tell a lie.

i prefer the definition offered by aristotle way back in 4th century b.c.e.

Terry
Finkelstein
Island Man
17 hours ago
Hecce
24
Did you participate in a Drama?
by Hecce in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
i am bringing this up because even it was a lot of work, for the majority of the friends this was a rewarding experience.

camaraderie, joking, costumes, props and when the time came the celebrity status of being in the drama.. back in the 50s and 60s, conventions could be as long as 8 days and from about 1966 the dramas became an integral part of the program.

we had one per day and the brothers looked forward to their presentation.

James Brown
cookiemaster
Pistoff
14 hours ago
JehovahsWitnessResearcher
6
Questions About Jehovahs Witness
by JehovahsWitnessResearcher in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
hi, i am doing a research project on jehovahs witness and wanted to understand it better from people who practice the religion.

i have a few questions and it would really help out if you could answer as soon as possible.. .

what are your main beliefs?.

Giordano
New day
JehovahsWitnessResearcher
2 days ago
Londo111
15
JW marriages: “They” looked good on paper.
by Londo111 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
i applaud anyone, male or female, who overcomes shallowness and looks at a person’s deeper qualities, especially in regard dating and marriage.

the movie and fashion industry does much to institute shallowness to the point that, in my opinion, it promotes outright discrimination and judgmentalism even as they give lip service to tolerance..

on the other hand, among jehovah’s witnesses, there seem to be a preponderance of incompatible marriages.

GrreatTeacher
Muddy Waters
smiddy
5 hours ago
thedepressedsoul
49
So... Are they done printing the number of partakers?
by thedepressedsoul in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
during the wt study yesterday i had a confused look on my face the whole meeting.

more of a, wtf, face.

one paragraph says, "therefore,the number of partakers does not accurately indicate the number of anointed ones left on earth.".

nowwhat?
nowwhat?
steve2
21 hours ago
DATA-DOG
24
The diabolical plan of the WTBTS.
by DATA-DOG in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
diabolical, or just really dumb, desperate and grasping for control; either way, the devil is in the details of the january 15, 2016 "study edition" of the watchtower tractazine.

so, we have two intertwined articles concerning "anointed" individuals within the sect of the wtbts inc. "the spirit bears witness with our spirit.

" and "we want to go with you people.

Listener
JW_Rogue
bafh
10 hours ago
TTWSYF
9
What's the difference between 'works' and 'fruits'?
by TTWSYF in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
my uber jw elder brother used to use jesus's quote "you know a tree by it's fruit" and then would speak about how jws are the only ones going door to door and restoring god's true name.. my niece was the first to point out that those were works and not fruits.

my brother retreated for a few days to contemplate the difference between works and fruits and when he returned to address the comment, he stated that works are fruits.

what's the take from the jw apologist?.

redvip2000
sparrowdown
TTWSYF
a day ago
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atomant
10
How many times have the GB been wrong?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 hours ago
actually its quite amusing to observe the different reactions from within the org every time theres new light.how dumb does a person have to be to not realize its all a conjob.surely a thinking logical person would question all the changes over the years.lts almost like the blind leading the blind scenario.

punkofnice
atomant
punkofnice
5 hours ago
wifibandit
14
Circuit Overseer Guidelines (tg-E) October 2015
by wifibandit in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 hours ago
circuit overseer guidelines (tg-e) october 2015. http://bit.ly/1utgizt.

jw-verite
stuckinarut2
StephaneLaliberte
11 minutes ago
Sugar Shane
7
Newspaper article: Why JWs Don't Celebrate Easter
by Sugar Shane in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 hours ago
saw this article in the google news.

it seems like the comments section is being overrun by jw apologists.

would be nice if some of us leveled the playing field.

FayeDunaway
jhine
Alive!
21 minutes ago
New day
3
The Judge
by New day in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 16 hours ago
genuine question here.

a lot has been said on this site about how judge rutherford responded to events in his day by 'revealing' the great crowd of earthly subjects of the kingdom.

it was always portrayed to me as a reaction from the ground up of those who didn't want to go to heaven.

FayeDunaway
kairos
Perry
10 hours ago
Atlantis
10
2 Requests for documents!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 16 hours ago
2015 guidelines for training potential circuit overseers.. http://we.tl/tagk4vycdl.

.. 1925 message of hope from page 141 of the 1988 revelation climax book.

page 3 starts the reprint shown in the golden age magazine.. .. http://we.tl/wjaevwvztz.

ToesUp
under the radar
jaydee
4 hours ago
Terry
5
A Brief History of MONEY and the Watchtower religion
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 19 hours ago
watch tower corp has changed a long-standing policy in regard to donations which had been in place a long, long time.

to appreciate how drastic these changes have been, you'd have to know how it was from the beginning.. .

watch tower corp has changed a long-standing policy in regard to donations which had been in place a long, long time.

Slidin Fast
baker
Terry
13 hours ago
James Mixon
16
Can God do everything? Can he sin?
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 21 hours ago
reading this and it made me think, god cannot do everything.

god is holy and he cannot.

sin.

mana11
punkofnice
Zoos
4 hours ago
Joe Grundy
3
Lourdes, Bigorre, Pyrenees, France.
by Joe Grundy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
(i never was a jw).. this topic occurred to me randomly.

i don't know whether any/many posters heer have visited.

the region is beautiful but marred, imho, by the scar that is lourdes.

GrreatTeacher
kepler
Xanthippe
20 hours ago
pixel
10
Skills Questionnaire Instructions
by pixel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
skills questionnaire instructions.

1. there is an urgent need to locate exemplary brothers and sisters who possess certain skills or work experience and who are available to offer their services on a broader scale to help support the theocratic expansion work taking place worldwide.

for example, skilled brothers are needed to assist with large-scale theocratic construction projects, computer-related projects, audio/video projects, and the increasing translation work.

pixel
wifibandit
ToesUp
16 hours ago
alcyone
11
Catholic encyclopedia misquote
by alcyone in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 a day ago
i do not know if this misquote has been discussed here already.. new catholic encyclopedia says this about jw:.

"judge" rutherford introduced important changes in the witnesses' creed and transformed the congregational structure of the sect as it was under "pastor" russell into a rigid theocracy.

the third leader, "brother" nathan h. knorr, gradually replaced the offensive convert-making tactics of the rutherford era by suave manners that have gained the witnesses their current reputation as one of the best-behaved groups in the world.

steve2
Ruby456
steve2
15 hours ago
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Welcome to the Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information
The biggest, busiest JW community & support discussion forum for Jehovah's Witnesses, those interested in JW.Org beliefs or the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society
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Are you people 'The Watchtower'?
No - we're an independent community site offering support for both current and former Jehovah's Witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the Jehovah's Witness religion as governed by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (WTB&TS).
We are not affiliated with the WTB&TS in any way and we take your privacy and security very seriously doing our utmost to protect your identity and provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends. Membership is completely free and anonymous so why not join today!
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Top 'best of' topics, articles and posts. First stop for new visitors.
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Watchtower Society / JW.org
Watchtower or JW.org specific topics
Bible Research & Study Articles
Critical analysis of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society publications and the bible
 321,628 posts in  16,546 topics
Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
 806,660 posts in  29,863 topics
Scandals & Coverups
Investigations into the WatchTower organisations United Nations (UN) involvement etc...
 114,050 posts in  5,640 topics
Child Abuse Issues
Child Molestation & Abuse Issues and other coverups
 70,122 posts in  4,040 topics
Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
Discuss Blood and other Medical Treatment including Mental Health within the WatchTower society
 37,655 posts in  2,429 topics
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