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Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago 58 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago

Wow this is interesting! I think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue. They're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible. There must be a lot of people not showing "loyalty" if they have to go this hard on a whole convention.
I'm not going to lie, you hand this to the public and they will think you're bat shit crazy as they read through it.
I also find it very, very interesting that they use the word "Shun". On JW.org they dance around it and use everything but that word. Are they finally embracing and being open that they do, in fact, shun? It's funny how they put that on Friday's program when the public rarely attends that day. Mainly just die-hard JW's on Friday.
It's concerning that they put unrepentant wrongdoers at the end of shun. They are wording it more and more that way. No longer do you have to be DF to be shunned. They are now targeting any unrepentant wrongdoer. They're coming for you inactive ones!
I fear for inactive ones. They are slowly going after you and really going after you with this convention. One, they are trying to re-recruit you with Saturdays talk. Aka, find out what you have been up to.
From Reddit:
Official Source: www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2016-Convention-Program/
The program features the following interesting talk titles:
FRIDAY
1.Chairman's Address: Jehovah Deserves "Undivided Loyalty"
2.Maintain Loyalty in – Thought!
3.Maintain Loyalty in – Word!
4.Maintain Loyalty in – Action!
5.DRAMATIC BIBLE READING: "Who Is on Jehovah's Side?"
6.Jehovah's "Loyal Love Is Better Than Life"
7.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Young
8.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Persecuted
9.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Tempted
10.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Praised
11.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Tired
12.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Abandoned
13.Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Facing Death
14.Loyally Uphold Jehovah's Judgements – Hate What Jehovah Hates
15.Loyally Uphold Jehovah's Judgements – Shun Unreptentant Wrongdoers
16.Loyally Uphold Jehovah's Judgements – Be Forgiving
17.Loyalty—Part of the New Personality
18.How Christ's Loyalty as High Priest Helps Us
SATURDAY
1.Helping Others to Become Loyal to Jehovah – Unbelieving Mates
2.Helping Others to Become Loyal to Jehovah – Former Bible Students
3.Helping Others to Become Loyal to Jehovah – Inactive Ones
4.Helping Others to Become Loyal to Jehovah – Relatives
5.Do Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – Adam
6.Do Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – Absalom
7.Do Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – Solomon
8.Do Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – Judas Iscariot
9.Imitate Loyal Ones – Ruth
10.Imitate Loyal Ones – David
11.Imitate Loyal Ones – Hushai
12.Imitate Loyal Ones – Shiprah and Puah
13.BAPTISM: Never Abandon Your Loyal Love for Jehovah
14.Lessons on Loyalty From the Book of Job – Loyal Despite Direct Attacks
15.Lessons on Loyalty From the Book of Job – Loyal Despite Subtle Attacks
16.Lessons on Loyalty From the Book of Job – What We Learn From Natural Forces
17.Lessons on Loyalty From the Book of Job – What the Animal Creation Teaches Us
18.DRAMA: "Hope for What We Do Not See"
19.Keep Waiting Eagerly With Endurance!
SUNDAY
1.Avoid What Erodes Loyalty – Pride
2.Avoid What Erodes Loyalty – Improper Entertainment
3.Avoid What Erodes Loyalty – Bad Associations
4.Avoid What Erodes Loyalty – Fear of Man
5.Pursue What Builds Loyalty – Appreciation
6.Pursue What Builds Loyalty – Self-Control
7.Pursue What Builds Loyalty – Love
8.Pursue What Builds Loyalty – Faith
9.PUBLIC BIBLE DISCOURSE: When Will Loyal Love Triumph Over Hatred?
10.Summary of The Watchtower
11.DRAMA: "O Jehovah, ... I Trust In You"
12.Jehovah Will Treat His Loyal One in a Special Way
One cannot escape the conclusion that this is a convention for the members, not for the public.
 +7 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 11 hours ago
Do Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – AdamDo Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – AbsalomDo Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – SolomonDo Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – Judas Iscariot
...Names that witnesses we know will be applying to us in their minds as they hear this part SMH
 +1 / -0
thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago

Do Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – AdamDo Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – AbsalomDo Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – SolomonDo Not Imitate Disloyal Ones – Judas Iscariot
...Names that witnesses we know will be applying to us in their minds as they hear this part SMH
I've never seen a convention like this! This is legit-ally crazy! All conventions have had some bat-shit crazy parts but this one is above and beyond!
Everything is on loyalty lately. I can't but think this is them trying to counteract all the media coverage lately.


 +4 / -0
prologos
prologos 11 hours ago

Friday 6-12, Jesus was loyal to the supposed "Jehovah's organisation" still in force in his day, but that did not stop him from exposing the errors of the establishment in no uncertain terms and actions. That is the kind of loyalty I can live with. and
It reminds me of the rallying talks in the Nazi propaganda in 1945. Does wt think their demise is that close?
Treue & Ruhe ist die erste Buergerpflicht!
 +4 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 11 hours ago

To paraphrase rebel8,
Cult cult cultedy cult
Or....let's review.........
 +8 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 11 hours ago

I hope the lurkers and thinkers see this and start waking up. The 2014 international was the last scrap of their crap I could stomach. It was that convention i realized they had completely turned a corner. Emotionally driven mega-church.
Wake up lurkers. There is still time to live your life outside this cult.
 +6 / -0
elderINewton
elderINewton 11 hours ago

I'm looking forward to "Shun Unreptentant Wrongdoers"
this looks to be a desperate attempt to hold on to the flock with the outlines like this. They clearly expect nobody to show up from the public, but its not like that was normal anyways.
 +1 / -0
thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago

To paraphrase rebel8,
Cult cult cultedy cult
Or....let's review.........
Am I the only one blown away by the talk titles? I think the word cult isn't enough! I'm completely shocked they would print this!
If the talk titles are anything to go off of, I have a feeling this Child abuse issue is about to get blown wide into the open.


 +5 / -0
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 11 hours ago

OBEY!

 +4 / -0
Iown Mylife
Iown Mylife 11 hours ago

(Nonsense #15): Some twerpy elders with a ax to grind, decide to punish. THAT is supposed to be GOD'S decision? Sorry, WT, I have a working brain.
Marina
 +2 / -0

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Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago 58 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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ToesUp
ToesUp 11 hours ago

They are VERY worried. Why would you have an entire convention on loyalty, if everyone is following 100%? They may come after inactive ones because of the damage it is causing their contribution boxes (oops, I mean dedicated servants) sarcasm.
If you have a product that can stand the "test of quality" why should you have to defend it? The product should speak for itself. WT knows it has more holes than Swiss Cheese and is worried about it's future. It will never go away, it may just diminish in members.
Like Candace Conti's attorney stated..".If ever there was a group that needs the sun to shine on them it's this one."
 +4 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 11 hours ago

Dear readers, this is our community dealt with then:
◦Maintain Loyalty in – Thought!
◦Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Abandoned
◦Loyally Uphold Jehovah's Judgements – Shun Unreptentant Wrongdoers
Put your tin helmets on, this is going to get nasty! The thought police are coming!
 +8 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 11 hours ago
I think this is almost akin to money begging, they are getting desperate to hold members in and its showing. I would not be surprised to see a decline in memorial attendance this year.
 +4 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 10 hours ago

On the bright side: have you ever noticed that when you say or hear the same word many many times, it will lose it's meaning and just become an odd sound?
JW's will not even know that 'loyalty' is a word after this convention...
 +5 / -0
pixel
pixel 10 hours ago

How many fucki*ng repetitions of words!!!!!!!!!


Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Tired
WTF?

 +4 / -0
thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul 10 hours ago

How many fucki*ng repetitions of words!!!!!!!!!
Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Tired
WTF?
hahaha! I laughed for a good minute when I read your post. I guess the guy on reddit made a spelling error.
 +1 / -0
Late Bloomer
Late Bloomer 10 hours ago
I love that the shunning talk is immediately followed by a talk on being forgiving.
 +9 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 10 hours ago
Maybe this was mentioned but did anyone notice that right below the talk on Shun Unrepentant ones is a talk titled Be forgiving. Ya just can't make this sh*t up!
 +6 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 hours ago



 +7 / -0
pixel
pixel 10 hours ago

How many fucki*ng repetitions of words!!!!!!!!!
Be Loyal, as Jesus Was – When Tired
WTF?

hahaha! I laughed for a good minute when I read your post. I guess the guy on reddit made a spelling error.
Not really. If you look at the program, even thou the layout has only one word as in:

Imitate Loyal Ones –
1.Ruth
2.David
3.Hushai
The speakers will be saying "Imitate Loyal Ones –" all over again when introducing the one next to them, hence, it will become a crazy repetition!

 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
wow this is interesting!
i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.
they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.



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by jwleaks a year ago



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Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago 58 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 10 hours ago

People tend to forget general information from any convention, so there's a strong theme.
Loyalty is another way of saying "OBEY US!!!" That's all they care about people remembering.
"Don't question us, don't listen to anything negative about us, be loyal to us."
I see your point on "Shun." Some JW's have managed to even deny that such a thing exists while they do not speak to their families. So they might feel a need to bring in the word because so many "weak" "unloyal" ones are not shunning DA / DF'ed ones. I doubt that will be applied to inactive ones, at least in the minds of members. Unrepentant wrongdoers would have to be DF'ed/DA'ed. Otherwise, they could be repentant or maybe even not wrongdoers. It's a vicious thought train to get on.
But I might be wrong. I am sure they will mention inactive ones. But all their mentions in the past have done little if anything to change them and their members' treatment of such ones. We will see.
 
Miss Behaving
Miss Behaving 10 hours ago

That last public discourse is such mind twisting double-speak. 'When will loyal love triumph over hatred?' Hmm, I don't know Watchtower, maybe when you stop spending three days of everyone's time teaching folks to hate themselves, to be paranoid about everyone who isn't a perfect witness, to preach that God will viciously murder their neighbors. Ministry of love, indeed.
 +11 / -0
undercover
undercover 10 hours ago

◾Loyally Uphold Jehovah's Judgements – Shun Unreptentant Wrongdoers
◾Loyally Uphold Jehovah's Judgements – Be Forgiving






The irony is strong with these ones.
 +12 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 hours ago

I see your point on "Shun." Some JW's have managed to even deny that such a thing exists while they do not speak to their families
I was told by my aunt sometime back when I was being banished by my family (and I used the word "shunning) that saying "shunning" is an apostate word. I kid you not.
 +4 / -0
BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 9 hours ago
Yoooooooo!!! This is some crazy creepy sh$$!! Wow, they are on a whole other level with this mess
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 9 hours ago

How about "Imitate Loyal Ones! Jesus- He boldly exposed the corrupt religious practices of his day!"
DD
 +7 / -0
Daniel1555
Daniel1555 9 hours ago

Wow... now they openly use the word "shun."
In the past they tried to avoid this word. And a whole convention on loyalty. I wish the active jws a lot of joy inviting people with this crazy theme.
SHUN UNREPENTANT WRONGDOERS
Unrepentant wrongdoers sounds very bad like murderer or terrorist. But who is an unrepentant wrongdoer in jws eyes?
Could be...
... any JW celebrating christmas or birthdays!
... a teenager JW smoking.
... jw parents who in a medical urgency allow the doctor to use a life saving blood transfusion for their child.
 +4 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 9 hours ago

OK, I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking they've really turned a corner here. They always stick to a theme pretty hard, but I don't think I've ever seen it like this. This is insane. Is the word "loyal" going to be the new "truth" that JWs will find a way to work into every sentence? My mother-in-law actually started talking about loyalty a couple years ago when there was a CO talk on it, so maybe that's where they're headed. Someone said repeating the word causes it to loose meaning, but that's actually not completely right - it looses some of the meaning consciously, but subconsciously it becomes a powerful thought-stopper...that's what the cult loaded language is all about. I wonder if that's where this is headed.
The talk on shunning followed by a talk on forgiveness actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it. The theme isn't really about their behavior, it's about obedience. The talks are essentially - shun who we tell you to shun and be subservient to those we tell you to follow (even though they've wronged you). If you think it doesn't make sense to talk about shunning and forgiveness in one breath, it's because you're taking it at face value - it's really about control. They want you to obey no matter what, so they give you examples on opposite ends of the spectrum and the only common thread (and therefore the conclusion those listening will come to, whether consciously or otherwise) is that you must do whatever you're told by the cult leadership.
I'm in awe of this. This seems like they've gone into cult overload, and I really don't think it only seems that way because I'm sorta freshly out. In the 2 years I've been awake, I don't think I've seen anything like this.
 +5 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 9 hours ago

DUDE! I thought that was a JOKE so I downloaded the program to see!



 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 8 hours ago




 

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Topic Summary
wow this is interesting!
i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.
they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.



Related Topics
pixel
New BOE letter: Re: Survey on Use of Printed Publications
by pixel a year ago
Watchtower-Free
two Jehovah’s Witnesses were paid millions to restrict WA blood transfusions
by Watchtower-Free 2 years ago
wifibandit
Warwick Project Update Email
by wifibandit 4 months ago
OrphanCrow
2001 Symposium on "Problems of Bloodless Surgery" in Moscow - Sherri Ozawa explains the HLC and bloodless medicine clinics
by OrphanCrow 8 months ago
jwleaks
Child Shunned by Jehovah's Witnesses International Convention, Melbourne, Australia (17-19 October 2014)
by jwleaks a year ago



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Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago 58 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparrowdown
sparrowdown 8 hours ago




 
ttdtt
ttdtt 8 hours ago

BE LOYAL TO ME!



 +8 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 8 hours ago

So they're taking the Song of Solomon out of their Bible edition?
Be like David? Isn't he the guy who rewarded "loyal" Uriah with a certain death so he could boink the wife?
Meh, they don't want anyone loyal to God, they want everyone loyal to 7 men.
 +4 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 8 hours ago
1984 anyone?
 +4 / -0
Gayle
Gayle 8 hours ago
wow, if you had a friendship or any relationship, and that person stressed "loyalty" every other sentence for days, would that not be alarming?! Sign of a very, very insecure, ill person?!
 +5 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 8 hours ago

If this was how a person spoke to you in a relationship, we would be classing that one as an "abusive control freak" who should be avoided!
 +4 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 8 hours ago

So that program is 100% legit??
Seriously??
Really??
Are we really seeing such "strange and unusual" stuff from the society now??
 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 8 hours ago
We're seeing signs of desperation. Lol.
 +1 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 8 hours ago
is it disloyal to masturbate whilst reading the watchtower ?
 +3 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 8 hours ago

REALLY its 1984 Orwell (Newspeak)
FRIDAY
Chairman's Address: Jehovah Deserves "Undivided Loyalty"
1.Maintain Loyalty in – Thought! - Bellyfell - The word bellyfeel refers to a blind, enthusiastic acceptance of an idea. 
2.Maintain Loyalty in – Word! -Newspeak "The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of IngSoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible."
3.Maintain Loyalty in – Action! Blackwhite - A true Party member could automatically and without thought expunge any "incorrect" information and neatly replace it with "true" information. Done properly, there would be no recollection of the "incorrect" information. THUS falling in line with any ACTIONS that are asked of the member without there being any questioning or hesitation.
 

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Topic Summary
wow this is interesting!
i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.
they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.



Related Topics
pixel
New BOE letter: Re: Survey on Use of Printed Publications
by pixel a year ago
Watchtower-Free
two Jehovah’s Witnesses were paid millions to restrict WA blood transfusions
by Watchtower-Free 2 years ago
wifibandit
Warwick Project Update Email
by wifibandit 4 months ago
OrphanCrow
2001 Symposium on "Problems of Bloodless Surgery" in Moscow - Sherri Ozawa explains the HLC and bloodless medicine clinics
by OrphanCrow 8 months ago
jwleaks
Child Shunned by Jehovah's Witnesses International Convention, Melbourne, Australia (17-19 October 2014)
by jwleaks a year ago



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Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago 58 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 8 hours ago
Brainwashing can only be successful with unquestioned loyalty.
 +1 / -0
freddo
freddo 6 hours ago

What? No "Disloyal" Korah? I love Korah - old swallowy uppy earthquaky Korah.
Pah. Lightweights.
 +3 / -0
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 6 hours ago

I really thought the program layout was a joke.
 +2 / -0
Robo Bobo
Robo Bobo 6 hours ago

Remember how Micah 6:8 said "what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness"?
Well the new NWT has replaced "to love kindness" with "to cherish loyalty".
So they insert their own idea into a scripture (which is a complete mistranslation) and then use it as a theme for their convention. Wow.

 +8 / -0
freddo
freddo 6 hours ago
Nice catch Robo Bobo.
 +3 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 5 hours ago
Avoid what erodes loyalty--Fear of man. Should you fear man or what????
 +1 / -0
JRK
JRK 5 hours ago




 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 5 hours ago

Wow! What a change in meaning Micah 6:8 now has!
"love kindness" to "cherish loyalty" changes the meaning considerably!
 +2 / -0
bohm
bohm 5 hours ago
Just like JWs always describe the last convention as "the best one ever", i think it has become a bit of a cliche that we always think the cult bit is worse than ever every year. However they do seem to have outdone themselves with this program, it is certainly the most cultist I can remember..
 +3 / -0
prologos
prologos 4 hours ago

Lieu: "--Be like David? Isn't he the guy who rewarded "loyal" Uriah--" Wt loves using David, because like that adulterous murderer, they want to justify their grave misdeeds, and get away with it. Parallel examples: By using his men to collaborate in procuring Bathsheba for sex for with him. David encouraged Uriah to break "god's" law on combatant's conduct by having Uriah sleep with his wife. By forcing Joab to collude in the murder of Uriah. His disloyalty to make the census, (counting, reports in wt anyone?), causing the death of 10s of thousands. ----
The David example giving carte blanche to the wt leader--ship (wreck).
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
wow this is interesting!
i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.
they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.



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Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul 11 hours ago 58 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Hadriel
Hadriel 3 hours ago

A rough count of the program indicates the word "loyal", "loyalty" or "loyally" are stated 100 plus times in the interactive program including songs etc.
Never seen anything such as this. Amazing stuff.
 +1 / -0
pepperheart
pepperheart 3 hours ago
loyalty over integrity ???????

 
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 hours ago
@Robo Bobo actually Micah 6:8 actually says to "humbly covenant loyalty and to love" so the NWT translation in this case is accurate in my opinion.
 +0 / -2
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 hours ago

It looks like the pretentious kings of the Watchtower scam are getting bit nervous about who's going to stick around and kiss their asses.
" Dam the inter net and the exposing truth about are religion of lies and deceptions."
.....and dam those people who are actually read the bible ........ we told them not to
In view of this acknowledge, lets stand and sing " Loyalty to Jehovah and his earthly publishing house "



 
Robo Bobo
Robo Bobo 3 hours ago

Hadriel - am I to believe that you and the gb have it right and every bible scholar got it wrong, really?
New International Version
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
New Living Translation
No, O people, the LORD has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
English Standard Version
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
New American Standard Bible
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
King James Bible
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Mankind, He has told you what is good and what it is the LORD requires of you: to act justly, to love faithfulness, and to walk humbly with your God.
International Standard Version
He has made it clear to you, mortal man, what is good and what the LORD is requiring from you— to act with justice, to treasure the LORD's gracious love, and to walk humbly in the company of your God.
NET Bible
He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the LORD really wants from you: He wants you to promote justice, to be faithful, and to live obediently before your God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
You mortals, the LORD has told you what is good. This is what the LORD requires from you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to live humbly with your God.
JPS Tanakh 1917
It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, And what the LORD doth require of thee: Only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
New American Standard 1977
He has told you, O man, what is good;
 And what does the LORD require of you
 But to do justice, to love kindness,
 And to walk humbly with your God?
Jubilee Bible 2000
He has declared unto thee, O man, what is good and what the LORD requires of thee: only to do right judgment, and to love mercy, and to humble thyself to walk with thy God.
King James 2000 Bible
He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?
American King James Version
He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?
American Standard Version
He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will shew thee, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requireth of thee: Verily, to do judgment, and to love mercy, and to walk solicitous with thy God.
Darby Bible Translation
He hath shewn thee, O man, what is good: and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with thy God?
English Revised Version
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Webster's Bible Translation
He hath shown thee, O man, what is good; and what the LORD doth require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
World English Bible
He has shown you, O man, what is good. What does Yahweh require of you, but to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?
Young's Literal Translation
He hath declared to thee, O man, what is good; Yea, what is Jehovah requiring of thee, Except -- to do judgment, and love kindness, And lowly to walk with thy God?

 
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 hours ago

I don't see the original text in any of those. I only care about the original text.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/micah/6-8.htm



 +1 / -1
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 hours ago
..and for the record I've seen "he-sed" translated as both loyalty and kindness or loving kindness. So I don't see an issue with either translation here.
 +0 / -3
steve2
steve2 3 hours ago

 A rough count of the program indicates the word "loyal", "loyalty" or "loyally" are stated 100 plus times in the interactive program including songs etc.
When you've got to keep telling people 100 plus times to use soap, BO is obviously a problem. Something's going down and it looks like a significant lack of loyalty. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
 +6 / -0
Mandrake
Mandrake 2 hours ago
In spanish they are translating "Shun Unrepentant Wrongdoers" as "-get away- from unrepentant wrongdoers"...

 

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Topic Summary
wow this is interesting!
i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.
they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.



Related Topics
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by jwleaks a year ago



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A Troubling Culture: JW Group Think vs. Individual Critical Thinking
by MicaSmith 8 hours ago 7 Replies latest 5 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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MicaSmith
MicaSmith 8 hours ago

Greetings:
I had no idea that the resistance, governance, and duplicity I am experiencing as a Jehovah Witness is actually part of a bigger behavioral issue that permeates the entire Jehovah Witness culture.
I was troubled by the fact that many persons who have been crushed by the unfair practices of JW leadership described themselves as former members of the JW cult, and, or, apostates. The latter bothered me to a greater degree because I felt the word apostate has been overused by JW's leadership and members. Anyone who disagrees with anything the governing body does or says is assigned the label an apostate. I was concerned that persons who have been already treated unfairly were accepting that label.
In terms of individuals who referred to the organization as a cult, I felt I needed more information to understand why they felt the term applied to the JW religion. The next step for me was to find a credible resource on cults and cult behavior. My first stop was the Federal Bureau of investigations, I figured if anyone would have a good, impartial, resource on cults it would be them.
I found an article in the FBI's Bulletin, September, 2001: Interacting with “Cults” A Policing Model, page 17. The entire issue can be downloaded here: https://leb.fbi.gov/2000-pdfs/leb-september-2000
_______________________________________________________
Below I will highlight some of the key features that were helpful:
In sociological terms, a "cult" may be defined as a movement that is foreign to the culture in which it lives.(2) Thus, Americans would define a "cult" as a group, generally with a religious foundation, whose beliefs and practices are unfamiliar to the majority of U.S. citizens.
Defining a group as a "cult" generally has much more to do with the way society perceives the group than it does with the characteristics indigenous to the group itself.

Most scholars of religion avoid the word "cult" altogether because it carries with it a set of negative connotations: "cult" leaders are con artists; "cult" followers are brainwashed sheep; "cult" beliefs are bizarre or ludicrous; and "cult" movements are dangerous, tending toward suicide or violence.(4) These scholars instead refer to cults as "new religious movements" or "NRMs" because the majority of "cults" are young religious movements still in their first generations.
Brainwashing stands as the most common allegation leveled against NRMs. Even the existence of brainwashing, however, is debated fiercely among behavioral scientists.(9) Clearly, in cases where movements physically coerce inductees (e.g., depriving members of food or preventing them from freely leaving), definite grounds exist for law enforcement concern. In the majority of instances, though, NRMs try to attract members through the same methods used by missionaries in mainstream churches or secular movements. NRM members may approach strangers or distribute pamphlets in the hope of enticing the uninitiated to attend a series of classes or lectures about the group's belief system.
_______________________________________________________

Having gained a good understanding of the definition of a cult from reading the entire article. I focused on cult behaviors Tips and/or Red Flags. The Cult Education Institute's website offered useful information:
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.http://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
_______________________________________________________
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. http://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
_______________________________________________________

Ten signs of a safe group/leader. group/leader.http://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html
1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas
_______________________________________________________
Lastly, I found an extensive compendium on news stories and other content on Jehovah Witness on the Cult Education Institute at this link: http://www.culteducation.com/group/1267-jehovah-s-witnesses.html
It includes the following:
1. Historical background
2. Personal Stories
3. Jehovah Witnesses And The Law
4.Sexual Abuse 5. Witnesses And Blood
6. Jehovah Witnesses And Holdings
Thank you for the opportunity to contribute this post.
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 8 hours ago

I am a proud apostate as the WT defines an apostate, but I actually prefer the term "awake" because for me, it means I am now conscious as in I am aware of my choices and that I am responsible for them.
For a cult's lies to be effective it takes two things the lies themselves and the person to believe and act on the lies.
I have chosen not to be the second part of that equation anymore.
 +2 / -0
kairos
kairos 6 hours ago

Isn't it funny that once awake, the 'Awake!' magazine title becomes an ironic joke.
Truth in plain site.
 +2 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 6 hours ago

Wow, Mica...I have to applaud you.
I have read your other posts, and for someone who has gone through the hell you have, and for being "out" (sort of...) for only a year, you really have your shit together.
Well done, my girl!!! Very very well done.
Could you share what you have done on your path to recovery? It seems so miraculous that it must be worth sharing!
 
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 6 hours ago
This is a great piece of work. I will save this for my ever increasing set of un-loseable posts for posterity.
 
Robo Bobo
Robo Bobo 6 hours ago

Anyone who disagrees with anything the governing body does or says is assigned the label an apostate.

I asked my friend the other day how it is to still be a witness...
she said she can't complain!
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 5 hours ago

Very good list!
Thanks for sharing!
 +1 / -0
talesin
talesin 5 hours ago

Great OP. : )
and LMAO @ Robo Bobo ahahaha!
 +1 / -0

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The Original Sin - Emperor’s New Suit
by learnaway 2 days ago 6 Replies latest 13 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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learnaway
learnaway 2 days ago

Introduction: Most religions based on the Bible, have been teaching Paul’s propagated doctrine for thousands of years which claims that human beings are born with the original sin, inherited from Adam, thereby redemption is required. It is not enough to be described with a few lines of explanation that Paul’s doctrine is false, because this examination goes against the faith of the redemption doctrine, which cultivated by Tertullian, Augustine, Calvin; and gave a source of power and enormous wealth for the church for many millennia. However, hopefully readers could grasp the undeniable truth regarding original sin and redemption.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………
 There is a masterpiece fairy tale called The Emperor’s New Suit by a Danish Author Andersen. This fairy-tale, which has been translated into many different languages, has become culturally embedded in the world’s collective consciousness. As we all know, the story presented at last three lessons. First, it contains the enlightenment that any rhetoric of transparent clothes that does not exist for the king is fictional. Second, it emphasizes the psychology of people who are afraid to challenge the stigma due to the carefully constructed public opinion. Third, like the boy at the end of the story, it expresses the lesson that pure hearted and courageous people can step forward and point out the hypocrisy.
Overcoming the unjust presented by a novel or fairy-tale offers satisfaction and happiness to the audience. The biblical presentation of Adam and Eve, the fruit of good and bad, Armageddon, and paradise earth is a similar story. Introduction, development, climax, and conclusion has been carefully crafted to offer happiness and satisfaction.
However, if the original sin due to the fruit of good and bad never exist from the beginning, such as “The Emperor’s New Suit”, then all related rhetoric would disappear, including the upcoming Memorial celebration.
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses’ doctrine on the original sin, the first ancestor of the human race challenged the universal sovereignty to request the right to decide what is good and bad for themselves. The actions of Adam and eve, “raised fundamental issues that struck at the very foundation of universal law and order. When they claimed the right to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad, they challenged God’s sovereignty. They questioned his right to rule and to be the sole arbiter of “good and bad.””.(W 2/15/1997, page 4) As a result, Adam’s descendants all inherited genetic sin. In order to eliminate its genetic crime, the proven Jesus Christ was provided and sent to earth and sacrifice himself for mankind…
Just as the air spewing forth from a raging horses nostrils disappears immediately, are the actions of people who follow the doctrine of redemption futile, or is there clear scriptural basis to support. First, let us confirm if the doctrine of the original sin through JW’s publications has clear scriptural basis.
 
*** it-1 p. 676 Eden ***
As to the genus of the tree, the Scriptural record is silent. But it becomes apparent that the tree of the knowledge of good and bad symbolized the divine right or prerogative, which man’s Creator retains, to designate to his creatures what is “good” and what is “bad,” thereafter properly requiring the practice of that which is declared good and the abstention from that which is pronounced bad in order to remain approved by God as Sovereign Ruler. (See TREES.) Both the prohibition and the subsequent pronouncement of the sentence passed upon the disobedient pair emphasize the fact that it was the act of disobedience in eating the prohibited fruit that constituted the original sin.—Ge 3:3.”
 
The above insight described that the act of eating the forbidden fruit caused the original sin because “it becomes apparent that the tree of the knowledge of good and bad symbolized the divine right or prerogative”. Another words, the tree of the knowledge of good and bad only symbolized the divine right because “it becomes apparent” not because it was clearly written in the bible.
Upon research, the statement “See Trees” has failed due to the fact that there is a lack of scriptural background to support the statement above which describes, “it becomes apparent that the tree of the knowledge of good and bad symbolized the divine right or prerogative”. Rather when it relates to trees, the insight says “Trees were also used to symbolize individuals, rulers, and kingdoms”. In addition, under the same subject, “See Trees”, part of paragraph, “Therefore, to violate the boundaries of the prohibited area by eating of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” would be an invasion of or a revolt against God’s domain and authority.” Again no clearly stated scriptural basis.
 
Let us take a look at another publication dealing with the original sin.
*** pe chap. 11 p. 101 par. 6 Why Has God Permitted Wickedness? ***
6 Eve disobeyed God and ate. Why? Eve believed Satan. She selfishly thought that she would benefit by disobeying God. She reasoned that no longer would she or Adam need to answer to God. No longer would they have to submit to his laws. They could decide for themselves what is “good” and what is “bad.” Adam went along with Eve and also ate. Discussing man’s original sin against God, a footnote in The Jerusalem Bible says: “It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence . . . The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty.” That is, it was an attack on God’s right to be man’s absolute ruler or superior.
 
The above "Live Forever" chapter 6, surprisingly failed to provide clear scriptural base which directly related the claims of “selfishly thought, reasoned, No longer would they have to, could decide”. According to how the bible displays the detailed recording method of when Sarah laughed in her mind (Ge !8:12), the same recording method should apply and perhaps even in greater detail when Eve had the rebellious challenged idea in her mind to go against universal sovereignty, as claimed by WT doctrine.
What was the reason why the Watchtower continually fails to provide appropriate verses to argue in their way of depiction for original sin? Before let’s try to find out what the Bible really wants to tell us, I’d like to follow one good advice from recent WT study article. (Feb. 28. 2016 Paragraph 16)
16. What should we consider when making decisions about our (spiritual) health?
16 When we are deciding which test to have or which treatment to accept, we need to have “soundness of mind,” or use good sense. (Titus 2:12) This is especially important if the test or treatment seems very unusual. Can the person we consult explain how the test or treatment works? Is the explanation strange?
Following the above advice correctly, first of all, we should find out the base scriptures which convey the scope of the Creator’s character to review the original sin and redemption and examine them to prove validity or draw out conclusion just as Emperor’s New Suit fairy-tale. These verses also could distinguish any doctrines or scriptures if they harmonize with the Creator’s character, furthermore if they have consistency and reflects our true God, the Universal Creator.
He is a lover of righteousness and justice. With the loving-kindness of Jehovah the earth is filled. (Psalm 33:5) Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, for it comes down from the Father of the [celestial] lights, and with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shadow. (James 1:17)  Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. (John 5:19)
 
In the organization of Watchtower society, no one would argued nor objected to the point that above verses emphasizes regarding the Creator of the natural universe and spiritual world and Jesus and their relationship for the father and son. Wouldn’t they? Now, based on the scriptures above as a touchstone, we could investigate whether Adam and Eve really rebelled against the Universal Sovereignty as claimed by Watchtower or this doctrine is an engine of the propaganda to secure endless power and enormous wealth for the church for many millennia.
 
The scene depicts at the time when Elohim made man, “And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. . . (Genesis 1:26)” Watchtower explained that “us” refer to be Jehovah and Jesus.
 
*** w70 6/15 p. 360 The One Who Made All Things ***
In the Bible God says: “Let us make man.” (Gen. 1:26) Do you know whom God was talking to? He was talking to his Son. He was talking with the one who later came to earth and was called Jesus!
 
*** te chap. 3 p. 16 The One Who Made All Things ***
The Bible tells us that God said: “Let us make man.” Do you know whom God was talking to?— He was talking to his Son, the one who later came to earth and became the Great Teacher!—Genesis 1:26.
 
*** w09 7/15 p. 7 par. 1 Christian Families—Follow Jesus’ Example! ***
WHEN God made the heavens and the earth, his firstborn Son was beside him “as a master worker.” The Son of God also cooperated with his Father when Jehovah designed and created the huge variety of animal and plant life here on earth and when He prepared the Paradise that would be home to creatures made in Jehovah’s image and likeness. God’s Son, who later became known as Jesus, had a great love for mankind. “The things [he] was fond of were with the sons of men.”—Prov. 8:27-31; Gen. 1:26, 27.
 
Ancient archives citied from nearby nations, scrolls purposely collected, and other small pieces of story which were carried by word of mouth from tribes who scattered and dwell around Mesopotamia region throughout millennia have been put together in a collection called the bible; literally meaning “little books”. This continues on to Genesis chapter 3, where now a talking snake appeared. The snake says to Eve, “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”(Ge3:5 English Standard Version)”
 
The snake insured Eve that she will be like God in knowing good and evil. The Watchtower has continuously accentuated the importance of the snakes role and false guarantee, but what is the truth? Let us take a look at the scene where clearly recorded after the fact that eating the forbidden fruit already occurred, the reaction of Elohim who knew what happened, " Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil...”(Ge 3:22 English Standard Version)” Elohim(Jehovah and Jesus in WT’s version) surely confirmed that snake’s declaration was correct that Adam and Eve would have been like Jehovah and his son Jesus in knowing good and evil if they eat the fruit!
What a blessing! Jehovah and Jesus declared that Adam and Eve have become like them in knowing good and evil! Watchtower has cornered itself, because there is no other interpretation of Watchtower’s explanation of “us”; because “become like one of us” means, as already laid out earlier-as a touchstone, that Adam and Eve themselves were like our true God, the Universal Creator and his son Jesus! (Ps 33:5; James 1:17; John 5:19)
Let us continually read later part of the Ge 3:22, “Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” what kind of point would they try to tell us from the second half of this scripture itself?
To assist a certain understanding from this scripture I would like to present an one example. A group of Supreme Court judges pronounced on the well-known case all over the world, “Plaintiffs are guilty of charge because you are like one of us, therefore death penalty are sentenced.”
If this nonsense happened, people who heard the decision from Supreme Court cannot stop laughing and the case would become laughingstock all over the world. Is this example sound familiar somewhere over the rainbow? Yes, exactly! Because the content of the record presented in the Genesis 3:22 resembles the above nonsense case…
Now, please read again... “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us (Jehovah and Jesus) in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—“,  hum.. what does the WT study article (Feb. 28. 2016 Paragraph 16) reminds us?.. “ Is the explanation strange?”
By any chance, as in the assertion of the Watchtower’s doctrine, if Adam and Eve rebelled, therefore sentenced to death, directly confirmed that Jehovah and Jesus would have a same temperament of rebellious character because Elohim admitted that Adam and Eve became like one of them! Without carefully considering the scriptures in the bible and development in the doctrine; Watchtower and self-claimed apostle Paul, committed an inexcusable sin and blasphemy to our true Creator!
The story of Genesis associated with the fruit of good and evil not only became a laughingstock of the world, but also it was too far from the scripture as a touchstone in Ps. 33:5. (He is a lover of righteousness and justice.) . This understanding also supported by other harmonized scripture which the true God doesn’t have any single “variation of the turning of the shadow.” (James 1:17) 
Let’s summarized, it is the violation of “righteousness and justice” if Adam and Eve had death penalty because they were like Jehovah and Jesus. On the other hand, if Adam and Eve rebelled to Jehovah, as insisted by the watchtower, then Jehovah and Jesus would have a same nature of rebellious character because Elohim admitted that Adam and Eve became like one of them! .. Then, … what kind of conclusion should we draw based on carefully examined scriptures and combine with Watchtower’s doctrine which doesn’t have any clue at all about original sin?
The conclusion is, the doctrine of original sin related to the good and evil fruit never exist from the beginning; another word, the plot of good and evil fruit is a fictional story such as “The Emperor’s New Suit” and all other related rhetoric ideas (Romans 5:17-19) and action such as the Memorial celebration would also be like “striking the air” every year.
 
P.S. The length of original research papers are total of 15pages and structured in 3 part. Which included review of some Hebrew words and related scriptures from Old Testament (i.e., Ge 5:2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man (adam –earthling in Hebrew) when they were created. – this scripture tells us the view point of Elohim when they look at us and after they made male and female they called “adam-earthling” which means the clarification of species instead of male’s name in the beginning. About original sin, also see Eze 18:20) and New Testament (i.e., John 13:26-27 precisely described how Judas received the piece of bread from Jesus but it does not mention anything regarding wine and loaf which should be given to all the disciples in this chapter. About original sin, also see John 9:2-3)
 Due to the cultural barrier and language differences, please accept my apology if some of the explanations are poor. But I will try to translate all the pages in English when time permitted.
I would like to offer this article to those who are suffering or feel guilty due to the original sin doctrine presented by religion.
Thank you.

 +1 / -0
Island Man
Island Man a day ago

According to the Genesis account, Satan never lied to mankind. Their eyes opened just like he said it would. And they did not die in the very day of eating it - just like satan said they would not - contrary to God's claim that they would. Also, because of eating of the fruit, man has the opportunity to go to heaven and live like a god with God, forever! Would man have had that glorious opportunity had Adam and Eve not eaten of the fruit? So Satan's claims turn out to be spot on! It is God's claim that they will die in the very day of eating the fruit, that turned out to be a lie.
I don't believe the writer of Genesis 3 was attempting to portray Satan as a liar. In fact I don't believe the writer of Genesis 3 was even knew about Satan! The first 3 chapters is obviously an ancient creation myth in the tradition of "Just So" fables designed to provide answers to such questions as:
Where did the world and all humans and animals come from?
Why are people ashamed to be naked?
Why do women have painful childbirth?
Why do men have one shorter rib than women?
Why do men dominate women?

Why do we have to work so hard to live?
Why do we die?
Why do serpents not have legs?

The chapters were later coopted and reinterpreted as having deeper symbolic meaning and that's how the serpent came to regarded as being satan or satan's puppet. There is nothing in the text itself to indicate the snake is being manipulated by satan, In fact, the text itself explains the serpent's conversation with Eve by saying that serpents are by nature very wise/crafty. So not only does the writer not give any indication of the snake being manipulated by a higher power, he also give the impression that the snake is acting that way because of its own inherent nature!

 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy a day ago

Satan isn't mentioned in the Genesis story, just a snake.
The Hebrew Bible belongs to the Jews, who understand it very well, and do not believe in original Sin.
 +1 / -0
kaik
kaik a day ago


The Hebrew Bible belongs to the Jews, who understand it very well, and do not believe in original Sin.
Exactly. Jews do not believe in original, Adamic sin. Life is created perfect, but it is a human inability to uphold laws to stay without sin. Sin is not inherited either; person is only responsible for his or her own sin. There is no redeemer from the sin, and nobody can invalidate anyone sins on someone else behalf. Original sin is Paul invention to make Jewish scripture obsolete and create a new beliefs where salvation through Christ is only one possible.

 +1 / -0
learnaway
learnaway a day ago
 ◦Island Man
According to the Genesis account, Satan never lied to mankind. Their eyes opened just like he said it would. And they did not die in the very day of eating it - just like satan said they would not
Yes, when the writer of Genesis 3 used the word "die"in this fairy tale, the writer was concerned about sudden death. The meaning “die in Hebrew includes; certainly die, certainly put , certainly put me to death according to Strong's Concordance #4191(” muth”). Thank you.

 
The Rebel
The Rebel a day ago

Actually I fail to see why it is said that Adam disobeyed God.
 Now had God said " You must not eat from the tree that is in the middle of the garden" That is a commandment. But the passage reads " You must not eat from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, ( commer ) and you must not touch it, or you will die"
Therefore Adam was given a choice with the consequences explained. But the important point is Adam didn't disobey God, he merely exercised a choice he was given having had the consequences explained.
The Rebel
 +1 / -0
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity 13 hours ago
Original Sin is Characteristic of Western Christianity. Eastern Christianity teaches that we have a flawed nature, but not that we and our descendants are guilty from birth of Adam's sin. Island man, what you are saying sounds a lot like Gnosticism. You might have some interesting conversations with Mandean refugees fleeing Iraq. They are being persecuted for believing what you just articulated and being followers of John the Baptist but not Jesus.
 

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New ways of Witnessing a bit creepy I think
by Leela1 a day ago 2 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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Leela1
Leela1 a day ago
So i started a new job and take the train everyday into the Downtown core to my office.I have noticed everyday right when you leave the station there is a display case with Watchtower Pamphlets and magazines for the public to take. At first I didnt see the Witnesses standing close by monitoring the display case but one day as I looked over a few feet away I saw a man and a woman dressed in their best field service attire chatting away. I found this a bit odd as when I was a witness we always went door to door. And I find it kinda creepy the way the brothers and sisters stand there close enough to where the display is but far enough away so that the public is not aware that they are watching them. I have noticed this everyday for the last 2 months getting on and off the train and never have I seen them approach anyone to witness they only seem to approach if they see someone go up the display than bam they pounce. So i start thinking I have not had any door to door witness calls in quite a while and i did before but not for the last few years. So for any of you have left recently is this form of witnessing a new thing? Do they still go Door to Door as often or is there new and improved ways of witnessing ?

 +2 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW a day ago


New ways of Witnessing a bit creepy I think
I find it kinda creepy the way the brothers and sisters stand there close enough to where the display is but far enough away so that the public is not aware that they are watching them.
..

..................Jehovah`s Voyeurs

Image result for voyeurism...Image result for Watchtower literature cart
 +5 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Leela1:
So for any of you have left recently is this form of witnessing a new thing? Do they still go Door to Door as often or is there new and improved ways of witnessing ?
..

I think that the cart work is their new and improved way of witnessing. It's sure more peaceful than the bull horns on top of cars that they once used during Rutherford's reign.
 +2 / -0

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Watchtower is cashing in on China
by nakanozzi a day ago 29 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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nakanozzi
nakanozzi a day ago
Japanese brother in China recently revealed that
many wealthy Chinese are interested in Watchtower’s teaching
and donating money.
Ex-COs and Ex-District Os are now preaching undercover in China,
and, numberes of special pioneers in China are growing !


 +3 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
whats the population of China? I'd like to see it to believe this so called growth. Lots of WT urban legends come out about China, remember how many jw's were meant to be in Russia when the Soviet Union broke up, some of the estimates were laughable
 +3 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG a day ago

The only "special" pioneer that I knew of in China, was sworn to absolute secrecy about the WTBTS's activities. I have heard that "preaching" consists of going into an Internet cafe, hanging around with questionable religious material on your screen, and then hoping that an interested one finds you. Who knows? It sounds dumb.
I highly doubt the Chinese Government will allow a dangerous Xian sect that has habitually incited sedition to set up shop in their country. The WTBTS will never get a foothold in China. What's next, fabulous growth in India?? LOL!!!
If you thought Russia was rough on dangerous cults, just wait....
DD
 +6 / -0
nakanozzi
nakanozzi a day ago

A brother living in China, recently woke up revealed me this story.

 +2 / -1
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light a day ago

It is nothing so new, I think. It's a market for JW.ORG that's growing. Even years before, a lot of undercover witness preaching there. If you like to meet them, go to Hongkong, there everytime some of them, because of problems with the passport and a bethell there. I smuggle much literature, when I travel to china years before.

 +1 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

I don't believe any of that for a moment. Why would wealthy Chinese be more interested than poor ones? And how is the money being collected and what's happening with it. There are no Donation boxes, and no easy way to hide it nor move it out of the country.
Ex COs and Ex DOs - hogwash - just like all the hogwash you hear every few years about the work opening up in China. Never ever ever gonna happen.
I know someone who went to South Korea, and they talked about China, the few that are there are ULTRA careful. Nothing is happening in China.
 +2 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light a day ago
China and Hongkong different areas. So the big business is in Hongkong. At bethell they told me, from there the people went out to china and pay a lot of stuff for all branches worldwide. It was also very strange at bethell Hongkong, a lot of locked places. We visit some wealthy chinese people there, which be jw or study. How the money went outside China (maybe to Hongkong) I don't know.

 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago
Lots of witnesses are going over independently to preach...unofficially supported by the society...
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

stuckinarut219 minutes agoLots of witnesses are going over independently to preach...unofficially supported by the society...
No lots are not. Maybe a few here and there may be. There are so many reasons that make any kind of campaign there not viable it's not worth mentioning.



You have 1.35 billion people there, and a handful of nuts going there to preach?
Preach to a society that is completely conditioned to distrust outsiders, who often have to report on each other for any unusual behavior, and are not interested in christianity at all?




Any who try have have to deal with being watched, bugged, followed, or deported for preaching, as this is a constant threat.



By the way the have 200 dialects, making communication from outsiders not very easy.

Anyone who tells you of the great work going on in china is delusional.



p.s. Want to read a great article by a 'sister' who actually went to china to preach?
http://www.believermag.com/issues/201302/?read=article_scorah

 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago
Not trying to start an argument ttdtt, but I know of lots of 20somethings who have gone over under the guise of "students" but really to preach. They are not officially supported by the society though...
 +3 / -0

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Watchtower is cashing in on China
by nakanozzi a day ago 29 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
yes Amber Scorahs blog was very interesting, the extent of her going to a country "where the need is great" was teaching English in Shanghai hanging around internet cafes and trying to "witness" to her pupils or in the internet cafes, a very high risk and volatile strategy and one that is met with very little success indeed, her contact with any so called indigenous Chinese jw's was non existent and it was'nt that long ago.
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

No worries STUCKINARUT2 :smile: All good.
I am into precision of speech:) Lots when you are an organization of 8 million is tens of thousands. If you don't put your statements into context like "I knew 10 who went in the last 4 years" then "lots" can mean something different to different people.
I have been around forever in a very populated area and I don't know anyone who went to china to preach.
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG a day ago

What a great plan to disappear!! I'm going to to China to preach.... If you don't hear from me, it's because I have to be careful. Meanwhile....



DD 😍
 +3 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai a day ago
"Lots" of Japanese sisters go to China to preach. They all want to escape from the suppressive culture and conformity of Japan. They either go to Nepal or China. I've heard stories from those who came back to work and save money (or renew their visa) that once inside China the government is very lax about religion - especially Christianity. It's not at all far fetched what Nakanoji is reporting. The Watchtower gets their tentacles wrapped around China, Nepal, and recently Myanmar by first establishing small businesses (like portable drinking water tanks etc.) that reel in the support of wealthy individuals who are empathetic to JWism.

 +3 / -0
Backinthebox
Backinthebox a day ago
Half the s.p's there have been taken off like the rest of the world in January. Of the 10 thousand or so j.w's there its mainly koreans and japenese living off their parents money. But there is also a big growth percentage wise compared with the western world.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

All good ttdtt.
Yes in that context I see your point.
 
pepperheart
pepperheart a day ago
oh well if its true then we might see the GB stop making so may cuts that they have made in the past and possibly start spending more money in new things in the meantime the trolley dolleys that i have contact with will carry on giving out 5 and 10 year old teaching books

 
zeb
zeb a day ago
"They are not officially supported by the society though..." and have probably been told to say that if they are detained.
 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin a day ago

Reading this thread, and contemplating the topic, it seems very possible that China could be an area the JWS will focus on. There are a lot of new capitalists in China, and lots of bux.
Last year, when I did some research, I discovered the Society (TM) was encouraging travel to Israel. Through use of travel visas, JWS would spend whatever time (6 weeks? I don't know Israeli regs) doing 'undercover' preaching work. This was extremely dangerous, duh, it's ISRAEL. There was another country I read about, was it Malaysia?, where JWS were deported for being discovered doing the same activity.
KH's are in private homes. That is one way the law is subverted; ie, breaking Caesar's Laws (TM) in the name of Theocratic Warfare (TM). It could be the same in China.
It would not surprise me at all, to find out that the same kind of illegal and deceptive preaching work (and dangerous! think of what has been happening in Tibet since the Chinese takeover) is being 'encouraged'. Student visas would be a great excuse, providing 4 years of opportunity, it boggles the mind.
____________________________
Here's a viable set-up for JW subversion of Chinese laws. What about TESL teachers? TESL is a 2-year certification, with only HS requirement for entry. Imagine JW families in China, sponsoring a young TESL teacher who is also JW - all undercover... running a TESL school for Chinese children of wealthier families. Works for me.
_____________________________
Time to do a bit of looking around the net, to see what they are saying on travel blogs and such.
 +1 / -0
Stirred
Stirred a day ago

I smuggled literature from Hk to Beijing. Met the underground foreign group...It was growing back then so can imagine it is growing now.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
japanese brother in china recently revealed thatmany wealthy chinese are interested in watchtower’s teaching and donating money.ex-cos and ex-district os are now preaching undercover in china,and, numberes of special pioneers in china are growing !



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Watchtower is cashing in on China
by nakanozzi a day ago 29 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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talesin
talesin a day ago

Wow, check out these excerpts from an exJW blog, telling her story, about her missionary work, first in Vancouver, then in China. Very credible. It's a *must-read*, so here's a good taste:
http://www.believermag.com/issues/201302/?read=article_scorah

... When I got to China, things were really different, by necessity. Pro-selytizing is illegal. Religious meetings are banned. The preaching work and congregation meetings have to be conducted underground. This means that the handful of Witnesses in Shanghai can meet only covertly, which makes seeing each other more than once a week next to impossible. Preaching in the usual structured, door-to-door fashion is also, obviously, out of the question. For me, a Witness accustomed to a life of uniform routine, this seemed like an unprecedented adventure.
A couple of weeks after I arrived in Shanghai, I received a cryptic text message from a man who called himself James (some of us used fake names; we knew the Chinese government monitored electronic correspondence). He proposed meeting in a noisy local restaurant in the French Concession. I called his number when I got to the restaurant and he waved so I would know him. We chatted a few minutes, then he immediately got down to business. With a practiced manner, he explained the instructions from the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses as to how to conduct my missionary work. I was to find a job, perhaps teaching English, as a cover. Then I was to start cultivating relationships with worldly people, both Chinese and Westerners. These friendships were to be made with the sole purpose of religious conversion.
This sounded crazy to me. Every day of my life I’d been taught to stay away from these people, and I had. I was the person who made excuses not to lunch with coworkers. Who never kissed the boy who loved me in high school. I was the one who didn’t join after-school sports or attend birthday parties or my prom, all for fear of contamination. But I had my instructions; there was no other choice.
...
Brother James recommended that before bringing up anything about the Bible with one of our new friends, we find out if that person or their family was affiliated with the Communist Party. Anyone who was a party member posed a potential danger, and contact was to be cut off immediately; a party member might turn in a Witness out of loyalty to the regime. On the other hand, it was also said that some people became party members simply to qualify for certain jobs, meaning they were communist in name only, and thus not as risky to befriend. I tried to casually return the conversation to Jean’s family.
...
When I hung out with these worldly people, it was hard to shake the feeling that I was doing something wrong. They swore, they smoked, some of them drank a lot. They often made references to things I didn’t get. I didn’t understand their innuendos, and I hadn’t read their books or seen their movies. But I was a quick study. I had to play along; I didn’t want to blow my cover, and besides, it was interesting to learn about their lives. I was following my orders to a tee, and all of this could be done guilt-free.
In addition to my new school friends, I scheduled time each day to look for Chinese people to talk to. I’d sit in restaurants, hang out in Huaihai Park, read books in public squares, or hop on subways and buses, offering fast friendship to anyone patient or chatty enough to put up with my broken Chinese. I prayed for God’s help, but it was easy to find people who were interested in a foreigner, especially one who knew some Chinese.
Jean became my first Bible student.
 ...
I realized I was leading Jean down a path that was potentially criminal and that would mean, if all went well, that she would become an underground enemy of the state, have to limit ties with her family, cut off her friends, and likely not marry or have children—Witnesses could not marry outside their faith, and there were very few Witnesses in mainland China—but I felt this was a small price for Jean to pay to have the truth. If I could convert her, she could survive Armageddon.
I still had to be careful. I wasn’t supposed to tell her where I lived. At first we would meet for our study sessions in public parks, until one humid day when I noticed two men in polyester suits vigorously snapping photos of us. We separated, and I took the subway in the wrong direction home, just to be safe. After that, I treated Jean to coffee at various Western cafés, but never the same one two weeks in a row. I taped gift wrap over the covers of our Watchtower publications so people couldn’t see what they were.
...
This newspaper article from The Glasgow Herald, 1960 ... re 2 JWS arrested and imprisoned for their subversive activities:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19600815&id=cYRAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qZsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3321,6260441&hl=en







 +1 / -0
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent a day ago

Interesting thread.
I've been visiting China nearly every year since 2001. In addition I read the English editions of Chinese newspapers nearly every day, and I try to do in-depth studies of academic material that examine various issues.
These are my thoughts on various comments I've read lately, both on this thread and a couple of other recent topics.
many wealthy Chinese are interested in Watchtower’s teaching and donating money.
Well, maybe! Many wealthy Chinese also are interested in Tibetan Buddhism and donate money, (There are many Tibetan Buddhist temples in China proper - for example there are perhaps 50 - some large, some small - on Mt Wutai, not far from Beijing, and also 7 or so in Chengde, a former Royal holiday area for Emperors). That doesn't mean that Tibetan Buddhism is going to sweep China and Tibetan Buddhism is going to have tens of millions of converts.
The Catholic church has had missions in China for more than 400 years, and is the largest Christian church in China. If any church has money, the Catholic church has money. There are many Catholic churches open every day, and plenty of Sunday services. There's a big cathedral open about ten minutes walk from the Forbidden city and the Chinese National Parliament. Some Catholic families go back for generations. It doesn't mean that half of China will convert,
A sober estimate of all Christians in China is 20-30 million. Of course, some will claim more than that. But, then missionaries (of all sects) always seem to exaggerate the numbers that convert.

"...I smuggled literature from Hk to Beijing. Met the underground foreign group...It was growing back then so can imagine it is growing now. Flag Dislike Like"

and
"I smuggle much literature, when I travel to china years before."
What happens to all the literature produced in ALL the world? Most of it finishes up in the rubbish. I do not see China being an exception.

(and dangerous! think of what has been happening in Tibet since the Chinese takeover)
Tibet has been part of China, off and on, for centuries. It has certainly been part of China since the mid 17th Century. The leader who set the Manchu's (the Qing dynasty on the road to power entitled the Dalai Leader to be the Temporal ruler of Tibet, as long as he submitted to the Manchu's. When the Manchu's (the Qing dynasty) abdicated, Tibet stayed part of China.




 +2 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 21 hours ago

No, I don't see it this way. Normaly yes. But 2 points make a difference here. It's forbidden literature and the chinese view about books. If you talk to people who was JW when it was forbidden, they don't give the books away like in other countries, they not used in a typical d2d-way. Same in china. And the chinese people normally don't throw books away.
From what I know, mostly they smuggled books to china, no flyer or so.
In conclusion books come to china, given only to the jw and when given away, only for people who study. If they stop, they have to give it back. Also if they don't give it back, they sell it sometimes but don't throw it away.
 
fulano
fulano 21 hours ago
Wealthy chinese, the new riches, are only interested in more money and luxury.
 
steve2
steve2 21 hours ago

Truly I say unto you, today every religious man and his dog is hitting upon China and claiming a ready and appreciative audience.
If its not undercover Pentecostals, its 7th-Day Adventists or Mormons or Evangelicals or JWs. These, though, are tiny specks in an unimaginably vast country, teeming with a population conditioned to exist in a bleak and toil heavy existence. The poor Chinese trying to pick their way through promise-heavy preaching.
I know a Methodist couple who are engaged in "translation work" in Beijing. Their annoying reports are peppered with lots of "success" stories in winning silent converts. I try to suppress yet another yawn.
 +1 / -0
Dunning-Kruger
Dunning-Kruger 20 hours ago

The 2015 Yearbook reports that there were 35,795 publishers in the "30 Other Lands". I have lived in 2 of those 30 Other Lands, both middle-eastern. One of them has perhaps 500 to 600 JW's. I doubt any other middle-eastern country has that many. The other has 200 max, and I can say that with a high degree of confidence.
As a result, the majority of those 35,795 must be in China. (Where else could they be?) Remember, a fair proportion of that number would be evangelising foreigners, not Chinese citizens.
Also, the growth reported in the "30 Other Lands" is supposedly 7.3%. I can't see that growth occurring in the middle-east, so again, it must be mostly China.
in any event, in a country with 20 million plus Christians, there is inevitable going to be some JW's, so I believe the OP.
 
ttdtt
ttdtt 18 hours ago

FYI - there are only 35,000 publishers in ALL banned countries.
That is NOT a lot, especially if you add their population together.
It makes the 1 in 7000 ratio in Uganda look stellar!
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 17 hours ago

Let's think this through, shall we? The Chinese government closely monitors everything. They also outlaw religious meetings, preaching, ect. That is NOT tolerance by any stretch of the imagination. The Chinese government is watching for threatening behavior.
If Talesin can get on the Internet and read a blog about "secret" JW activities in China, then there are at least a million Chinese agents patrolling the Internet, and these people are smart, they speak English. That blog is probably in a government file. If we know it, they knew about it already.
Do you get it? Just because they aren't doing anything about it right now, doesn't mean they don't know exactly what's happening. One screw-up by one cult, and the dragon wakes up. Being an "enemy of the State" is not something you want to be in China.
The current population in China is 1,380,525,391 according to a 2016 estimate. Do you really believe that a handful of ineffectual JWs are going to make any difference? Secret Xians will far outnumber JWs, and normal Xians can just about do anything they want to blend in. They can observe Chinese festivals and don't have to stand out from the crowd like JWs.
I have no doubt that the WTBTS wants $$$ from China. I wish everyone in China would send me one penny! But it's not happening. Neither is a mass JW conversion in China. What if there are 500,000 baptized JWs in China? What would that accomplish? The entire population of JWs is declining and has no hope of keeping up a respectable ratio of JWs to population growth.
While China may passively allow people to believe what they want and keep it to themselves, they will stamp out anyone whom they view as a threat. China has been around a long, long, long, time. Some jack-ass cult that was started by an American clothing salesman isn't going to get a foothold in China...ever....nope, nope....nope, not happening...
DD
 +1 / -0
Stirred
Stirred 16 hours ago

All the secret ways sound right but we foreign nationals were told to not handle any chinese directly other than very light seeds.... All potential leads were to be forwarded to the local chinese group that we were to have no direct contact with so that if questioned, we could not point them out or possibly lead them to trouble just by our implied association. Many were being followed and tapped so criptic messages amd phone calls were normal. I was given a few lines to practice, but since my chinese was not good, I was to be especially careful. My focus was foreigners working in China.
I reported to branch in HK to meet and get the literature that I would smuggle. Quite a story but will save for another time.
i was given an update on the overall state of affairs in China and was given access to view the special map showing locations of all witness missionaries or groups. It was growing but at the time showed me there was a daunting task ahead, and that the end would not be so soon in order to work such territories. They explained who was directing the work on the ground ...made total sense. I worry saying more could be in any possible way a hardship to some so will leave the rest unwritten for now.
BTW, it took me two years to be approved by HQ to smuggle literature since I was a study with a uniqque position in China. I did this mission as a study and not a baptized one as it took very long for me to get past serious doubts as well as travel schedule kept me delayed.
The incredible experience where I felt recued by Jah from being found out, deported and likely job loss, pushed me to set aside my many doubts and concerns so that I finally was baptized later that year. I was removed from China work abruptly by job after first smuggling job. I hope all in the group are safe. Such sacrifices so many have made there.
 +1 / -0
talesin
talesin 16 hours ago

FTS, yes, I know that, just as there have been conflicts in Afghanistan for centuries.
I know you are a 'fan' of China, but I speak of recent events, of which I'm sure you are aware. Note the rise in self-immolations as a form of protest, and the arrests. I have been reading these reports for years, as Nepal was a dream goal as a child.  So, yes, the recent antics in Nepal would make me extremely fearful of defying the Chinese government. It is not what I would call 'benevolent' to anyone who defies its autonomy.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-17046222

From the BBC, a portion of their historical timeline, covering events since 2008, when the Dalai Lama , imho, said 'enough, they have won'.

2008 October - The Dalai Lama says he has lost hope of reaching agreement with China about the future of Tibet. He suggests that his government-in-exile could now harden its position towards Beijing.
2008 November - The British government recognises China's direct rule over Tibet for the first time. Critics say the move undermines the Dalai Lama in his talks with China.
China says there has been no progress in the latest round of talks with aides of the Dalai Lama, and blames the Tibetan exiles for the failure of the discussions.
A meeting of Tibetan exiles in northern India reaffirms support for the Dalai Lama's long-standing policy of seeking autonomy, rather than independence, from China.
2008 December - Row breaks out between European Union and China after Dalai Lama addresses European MPs. China suspends high-level ties with France after President Nicolas Sarkozy meets the Dalai Lama.
Anniversary
2009 January - Chinese authorities detain 81 people and question nearly 6,000 alleged criminals in what the Tibetan government-in-exile called a security crackdown ahead of the March anniversary of the 1959 flight of the Dalai Lama.
2009 March - China marks flight of Dalai Lama with new "Serfs' Liberation Day" public holiday. China promotes its appointee as Panchen Lama, the second-highest-ranking Lama, as spokesman for Chinese rule in Tibet. Government reopens Tibet to tourists after a two-month closure ahead of the anniversary.
2009 April - China and France restore high-level contacts after December rift over President Sarkozy's meeting with the Dalai Lama, and ahead of a meeting between President Sarkozy and China's President Hu Jintao at the London G20 summit.
2009 August - Following serious ethnic unrest in China's Xinjiang region, the Dalai Lama describes Beijing's policy on ethnic minorities as "a failure". But he also says that the Tibetan issue is a Chinese domestic problem.
2009 October - China confirms that at least two Tibetans have been executed for their involvement in anti-China riots in Lhasa in March 2008.
2009 January - Head of pro-Beijing Tibet government, Qiangba Puncog, resigns. A former army soldier and, like Puncog, ethnic Tibetan, Padma Choling, is chosen to succeed him.
2010 April - Envoys of Dalai Lama visit Beijing to resume talks with Chinese officials after a break of more than one year.
Self-immolations
2011 March - A Tibetan Buddhist monk burns himself to death in a Tibetan-populated part of Sichuan Province in China, becoming the first of 12 monks and nuns in 2011 to make this protest against Chinese rule over Tibet.
2011 April - Dalai Lama announces his retirement from politics. Exiled Tibetans elect Lobsang Sangay to lead the government-in-exile.
2011 July - The man expected to be China's next president, Xi Jinping, promises to "smash" Tibetan separatism in a speech to mark the 60th anniversary of the Chinese Communist takeover of Tibet. This comes shortly after US President Barack Obama receives the Dalai Lama in Washington and expresses "strong support" for human rights in Tibet.
2011 November - The Dalai Lama formally hands over his political responsibilities to Lobsang Sangay, a former Harvard academic. Before stepping down, the Dalai Lama questions the wisdom and effectiveness of self-immolation as a means of protesting against Chinese rule in Tibet.
2011 December - An exiled Tibetan rights group says a former monk died several days after setting himself on fire. Tenzin Phuntsog is the first monk to die thus in Tibet proper.
2012 May - Two men set themselves on fire in Lhasa, one of whom died, the official Chinese media said. They are the first self-immolations reported in the Tibetan capital.
2012 August - Two Tibetan teenagers are reported to have burned themselves to death in Sichuan province.
2012 October - Several Tibetan men burn themselves to death in north-western Chinese province of Gansu, Tibetan rights campaigners say.
2012 November - UN human rights chief Navi Pillay calls on China to address abuses that have prompted the rise in self-immolations.
On the eve of the 18th Communist Party of China National Congress, three teenage Tibetan monks set themselves on fire.
2013 February - The London-based Free Tibet group says further self-immolations bring to over 100 the number of those who have resorted to this method of protest since March 2011.
2013 June - China denies allegations by rights activists that it has resettled two million Tibetans in "socialist villages".
2014 February - US President Obama holds talks with the Dalai Lama in Washington. China summons a US embassy official in Beijing to protest.
2014 April - Human Rights Watch says Nepal has imposed increasing restrictions on Tibetans living in the country following pressure from China.
2014 June - The Tibetan government-in-exile launches a fresh drive to persuade people across the world to support its campaign for more autonomy for people living inside the region.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
japanese brother in china recently revealed thatmany wealthy chinese are interested in watchtower’s teaching and donating money.ex-cos and ex-district os are now preaching undercover in china,and, numberes of special pioneers in china are growing !



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JWs tamping on Japanese edition of Wikipedea
by nakanozzi a day ago 6 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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nakanozzi
nakanozzi a day ago

According to jwstudy.com,
Some JW changed the date of Jerusalem's fallfrom 597 to 607.
and erased all the original writings and re-written the page
of the Wikipedia so that Wikipedia matches the Watchtower’s doctrine.
Chech this out.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%90%E3%83%93%E3%83%AD%E3%83%B3%E6%8D%95%E5%9B%9A
 +1 / -0
wannaexit
wannaexit a day ago
its in Japanese---- can't read it

 +1 / -0
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle a day ago
You can report it and get a mod to reset the old page.
 +3 / -0
nakanozzi
nakanozzi a day ago

maninthe middle,
 
nakanozzi
nakanozzi a day ago

maninthemiddle,
Thank you for your advice!!

 
Simon
Simon a day ago

I seem to remember the JWs were high on the list of Wikipedia tempering.
It works as a concept for general information but when you get to religion and politics ... not so much.
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 18 hours ago

Bro, you have to attack that BS! Do it for Japan! If you cannot, then I order you to commit seppuku!!
DD
 +0 / -1

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My Personal Invitation to the Celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal
by TMS a day ago 23 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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TMS
TMS a day ago

By no means is this a heartwarming "experience" illustrating how an ex-JW skillfully "reached the heart" of a current JW, moving them to re-examine their belief system. That won't be my take on my half hour visit with an elder's wife last Sunday. No one scored points here as is almost always the case in these interactions.
We live at the extreme southern tip of Texas, on the U.S.-Mexico border in a city of about 200,000. Twenty years ago there were 20 Spanish language congregations, 2 English. I have no idea if the numbers hold today, but the Witnesses are very active here and seeing groups out in field service or a tandem making a return visit is not at all uncommon.
This past Sunday I was trimming the oleander bushes at my son's house, when I was approached by a nicely dressed woman likely in her mid-forties, working alone, inviting me to the memorial. I refused the invitation, quickly explaining that I had a long history as a JW and was totally familiar with her belief system.
Absolutely undaunted, the confident young lady asked if a particular incident had "disappointed" or "stumbled" me or if I had an issue with a particular belief. I laughed, not sarcastically, but knowingly, as an older man gently dealing with a potential daughter figure.
"No, no. no!" I said. "It's much broader than that. I learned absolutely that Jehovah's Witnesses are simply another man-made religion, not unlike the Seventh Day Adventists. In fact, many of their beliefs originated with the Adventists. They are a high control, suffocating religion not dissimilar to the Amish, the Mennonites, etc., fearful of their adherents gaining incite from outside sources that will undermine their belief."
"But, I know it's futile to even have this conversation. You can't disprove by evidence someone's beliefs. We tried that years ago as JWs, trying to read scriptures disproving the trinity or a burning hell. It didn't work then and it wouldn't work with you. Nor would I necessarily want it to work. I spent 50 years of my life interfering, trying to effect people's belief systems. I'm done with that."
She was the one that wanted to press on with the discussion, not me. So, I gave her what she wanted, touching on the huge scandals involving protecting child molesters and the organization to the incredible harm to innocent molestation victims. She claimed to remember the young woman in Canada, molested by a JW, who was forced to pay $100,000 in legal costs, to know about Conti in California and the ARC in Australia.
"We must remember that Jehovah sees all of this, hates it and will deal with it," she tried to say.
"Oh, really? I countered. There is no evidence that Jehovah or any other God has done anything to protect these little ones or right the injustice."
I looked her in the eyes and said: "Obviously, NONE of this touches you just as I knew it wouldn't."
Despite my better judgement, I kept going. I illustrated the warped justice of stoning juvenile delinquents in Israel, while not punishing King David for adultery AND murder. "Jehovah killed the ONLY innocent in that whole situation, the young child of David and Bath-Sheba."
I covered Malawi-Mexico, thoroughly. She must KNOW that the JW men just across the Rio Grande from our conversation are allowed to bribe government officials for a tarjeta declaring they have fulfilled their military service obligations while JWs in Malawi were told to take a stand of NOT buying a one dollar party card that would have saved them from loss of their homes, fields, the raping of their wives and daughters as well as many their lives in many cases.
None of this remotely fazed her.
When I mentioned that my wife and I felt we had both totally wasted our 50 plus years with Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as jeopardizing our son's success in life, we talked briefly about the JWs stance on education. She had to tell me that she received a masters degree before becoming a JW. Her dad was a lawyer. "I come from a well-educated family," she claimed.
I just shook my head. It sort of felt like shaking the dust off my feet.
"Well, we would love to see you for the Memorial if you're able," she blurted out as she departed.
"I will never set foot in a Kingdom Hall for any reason," I responded.
Neither us came remotely close to losing our composure in this fruitless conversation. As she turned her back I resumed trimming bushes.
 +19 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte a day ago

She probably was unfazed by convincing herself that most of what you were saying wasn't true. She thought she'd be able to go home and clear things out with the WT Library. The thing is: once she'll discover you were actually right, she'll need courage to take a stand for her beliefs. Maybe that step will take years, maybe not. But I can assure you that getting a dose of TTATT is like getting exposed to radiation: Even if you don't feel it yet, it is reaching down to your bones and you won't ever be able to get rid of it.
 +14 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW a day ago


I know it's futile to even have this conversation.
Neither us came remotely close to losing our composure in this fruitless conversation.
.........Conversation With a Jehobot Witness..

.........Image result for Talking to robot
 +7 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago
The title of this thread just made me think of something. Their phrase "The Lord's evening meal" is the only time that the JWs refer to Jesus as their Lord.
 +4 / -0
TMS
TMS a day ago

StephaneLaliberte,
"radiation?" Over 50 years ago, a man at the door interrupted my JW spiel to ask: "I've seen you around town. How old are you, 19 or 20? If you're not in college, you need to be and stop wasting your life with this bullshit."
That stung and was never forgotten.



OUTLAW. . that's a perfect graphic for how I felt. Each word seemed wasted on a being with no comprehension. It even felt like I was wasting time writing about the incident. . One point in the discussion seemed to touch a tiny nerve. I detailed some facts about a congregation servant I replaced who was grooming and abusing teenage girls. She thought about her elder husband, saying: "That would be on Victor. He knows better than that. He would be fully responsible for that."



Village Idiot,
Yes, the memorial is incongruous with every other meeting in that respect. JWs don't actually talk much about Jesus unless they are saying "in Jesus name" closing a prayer.
 
zeb
zeb a day ago
tms. what a great post and a great handling of the situation with the sr.
 +1 / -0
moomanchu
moomanchu a day ago

If you go to the Lord’s Evening Meal make sure you eat beforehand !
Why can't they just call it the Lord's supper like everyone else
...... oh yeah almost forgot, gotta be different, either way it's a misnomer.
 +2 / -0
TMS
TMS a day ago

Thanks Zeb. .
moomanchu, it's not a meal and during my years as a JW almost no one partook. A couple of times I took the bottle used for the wine home and finished it off. It felt a little weird, but wine is just wine, not an "emblem," except during the "memorial."
 +1 / -0
freddo
freddo a day ago

Trust me, her head will be spinning and what you said will "pop up" from time to time in the future. Whether her comfy well-ordered existence or her desire to see a dead loved one in paradise will be overcome by a crisis big enough for her to act at any time I don't know.
I've heard it all before but your take on the only innocent in the David and Bathsheba situation being killed by Jehovah touched me ...
 +1 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 20 hours ago

TMS, as Freddo has just said, I think your neutrally delivered account of the gross injustice with God's favouritism of David in the Bathsheba affair, could well have pierced her JW "force field".
These Bible stories create the mind set for the GB... it seems that God does not care about children all that much, they are like non-believers: expendable.
 +1 / -0

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My Personal Invitation to the Celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal
by TMS a day ago 23 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Bonsai
Bonsai 20 hours ago
Great post and well handled! It's more fruitful to trim an oleander bush (because they are not only poisonous, but grow really fast) than to try to trim the beliefs of a JW zealot (who's beliefs never grow at all, yet are just as poisonous).

 +1 / -1
jwfacts
jwfacts 20 hours ago

Great post that I wish everyone could read and appreciate. After years of preaching, how many of us ever convinced anyone that their Christian beliefs are wrong, so why think that it is going to be likely that a conversation with a JW will have them agreeing that you are right and they should leave the organisation. It still comes as a surprise that she was so unaffected as to still press for you to come to the memorial after all that.
Still, this conversation may plant a seed that at some later point has an affect.
 +3 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 19 hours ago

TMS
Great job explaining things to her. The same outcome as always with a JW....."None of this remotely fazed her." Crazy!
 
TMS
TMS 15 hours ago

Overall, I think I was very gentle. After all, I don't really have any emotional stake in whether or not she continues in the religion. I'm sort of past that. When I spot a group of JWs in a neighborhood, no anger wells up inside me. Instead, I find myself noticing their clothing, trying to see if there is any sense of urgency about them or if any young ones are tagging along, wishing they were on a Little League ball field.
If any of my words stung, it was when I accidentally revealed my last name. She asked if I was related to so-and-so, a "brother" in her congregation. "Yes, that's my younger brother," I said wistfully. "I'm very surprised he's still in the religion. I thought he was smarter than that."
I meant that. My brother was removed as an elder during his divorce about 25 years ago. He lived sort of a double life after that for a number of years, smoking cigars, doing basically what he wanted to do while still attending meetings, etc. I always assumed he'd seen through the bullshit and was just going through the motions to hold his family together and keep his friends. Not so. He's back to a fully functioning JW. I've even heard "what wonderful talks he gives." Lol.
Likely, he heard her version of our conversation at the Kingdom Hall that afternoon.
 +2 / -0
Stirred
Stirred 15 hours ago

I can understand her outward appearance. She has on her witness suit of armor. She may very well ponder these things. I'd bet money on it. Why? Because she tarried so long in conversation, showed concern as to why you were negatively affected versus just writing you off and moving on....she really wanted to know in order to help but also perhaps curiosity was growing inyour conversation. If she was aware of facts, she may be in the middle numb point of trying to push off these thoughts or is dealing with inner conflicts with the oft used logic that we should wait in Jehovah to handle this...or that we dont know all the facts and no doubt the medianis blowing this up.
This will ring in her mind no doubt on a regular basis. A neighbor brought out one simole question to me a couple years back when I was feeling already stressed by issues in the workings of the JW culture....he pegged it. I could not disagree or really answer at the time. His comment and question rang in my head regularly till one day I started taking steps to clear my conscience of any dissonance.
 +1 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 15 hours ago

The Borg would say "resistance is futile".
...but when it comes to Witnesses it is better said:
"persistence is futile"
 
Stirred
Stirred 14 hours ago

Staying calm, humbly pointing out facts, showing real friendship, care and concern, and being a truly "good neighbor" all helped me to wake up. So I argue it is not futile at all.
Aggression and disrespectful talk would turn me off. However, asking good questions, especially ones that highlighted non-biblical rules helped me very much.
I actually thanked my neighbor.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 14 hours ago

TMS, you sound like the kind of 'householder' I would have had mixed feelings about when I went door-to-door: I would have appreciated the intelligent, orderly exchange, but also "feel" rattled by the information (and not show it, of course) and verbalize the official answers in a compised, dignified manner.
So, who knows what was going on in this lovely lady's mind?
I would not say your exchange was fruitless. You conducted yourself in an intelligent, thoughtful and dignified manner with the ability to still be frank and "wise" about JWs thinking patterns.
Having an ability to express yourself is to be valued in contrast to individuals who have poor emotion regulation and use anger and resentment to convey their message. And the Witnesses lap up the display and go away convinced exJWs are mentally unhinged.
This lady will not be able to dismiss so readily her exchange with you. I suspect there could be a lot more going on in her mind than her composed exterior suggested.
I wished I had met someone like you when I was going door to door many years ago.
 +3 / -0
TMS
TMS 14 hours ago

Not that I've had many of these conversations, but. . . . a few years ago, a terrible tsunami wave killed hundreds in the far east. News reports indicated that indigenous people, relying on oral tradition had noticed warning signs of the danger and taken to higher ground.
About that time, I saw a man, about 35 or so, walking toward my door, accompanied by his 11 or 12 year old son. On that occasion I did not identify myself as a former JW. I fawned over the man's son a bit and then listened to the start of his presentation.
"You call your god Jehovah, right?" I asked.
"Yes, God's name is Jehovah," he responded, offering to show it to me in the Bible. I think he was flipping to Psalms 83:18 before I stopped him.
"Ok, so that book says that we are God or Jehovah's children, right?"
"Yes, we are God's children," he agreed.
"So, why," I asked, "did God not warn hundreds of his children that a tsunami was coming? He saw it coming, didn't he? Is there a reason he simply chose to watch them all die?"
He stood there thinking with no immediate response.
Then I addressed him by his first name which I now forget. "If you, as a father, had simply watched your son die, doing nothing to protect him or warn him, how would that be viewed by the authorities? Would you not be guilty of child abuse?"
The Witness man simply said "I have no answer for that. Thank you, sir, for your time."
From time to time I think about that man and his son. The son would likely now be well into his teenage years.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 13 hours ago
A well-composed question is hard to shake off, even if there is not much going on upstairs!
 

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Topic Summary
by no means is this a heartwarming "experience" illustrating how an ex-jw skillfully "reached the heart" of a current jw, moving them to re-examine their belief system.
that won't be my take on my half hour visit with an elder's wife last sunday.
no one scored points here as is almost always the case in these interactions.. we live at the extreme southern tip of texas, on the u.s.-mexico border in a city of about 200,000. twenty years ago there were 20 spanish language congregations, 2 english.



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My Personal Invitation to the Celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal
by TMS a day ago 23 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Diogenesister
Diogenesister 12 hours ago

Maybe that step will take years, maybe not. But I can assure you that getting a dose of TTATT is like getting exposed to radiation: Even if you don't feel it yet, it is reaching down to your bones and you won't ever be able to get rid of it.
Fantastic stephaneLa....👍
I also think that line about Jehovah'appalling sense of justice will have hit home to some extent, if true so obviously a freak tragedy the Israelites, like much else, attributed to an imaginary god.
Its good for dubs to meet intelligent, ordinary, polite exdubs with well thought out reasons for leaving of their own volition. I often think the " herd mentality" is one reason they don't see the issues with the cult.." If all these sane people think its true, we can't ALL be wrong - these non JW's just dont KNOW enough about it" type thinking. The more they hear that many people DO know their religion AND think its wrong the better.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 12 hours ago

A calm, considered respectful exchange packs way more lasting and unsettling punch than screamers with banners.
JWs easily - and smugly - dismiss nutjobs who howl in their faces - but these same JWs can be rattled by an intelligent, orderly exchange - even if they do not acknowledge how they are feeling inside at the time.
How do I know? That lady speaking to TMS was me many years ago.
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 12 hours ago

, why," I asked, "did God not warn hundreds of his children that a tsunami was coming? He saw it coming, didn't he? Is there a reason he simply chose to watch them all die?"
He stood there thinking with no immediate response.
Then I addressed him by his first name which I now forget. "If you, as a father, had simply watched your son die, doing nothing to protect him or warn him, how would that be viewed by the authorities? Would you not be guilty of child abuse?"
The Witness man simply said "I have no answer for that. Thank you, sir, for your time."
How refreshingly honest of him. Im not surprised you think of him....it would be nice to know that he was OK and that he and his son managed to exit the cult😊
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 12 hours ago

JWs can be rattled by an intelligent, orderly exchange - even if they do not acknowledge how they are feeling inside at the time.
How do I know? That lady speaking to TMS was me many years ago.

Hear hear Steve2...ditto me too!
 

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Topic Summary
by no means is this a heartwarming "experience" illustrating how an ex-jw skillfully "reached the heart" of a current jw, moving them to re-examine their belief system.
that won't be my take on my half hour visit with an elder's wife last sunday.
no one scored points here as is almost always the case in these interactions.. we live at the extreme southern tip of texas, on the u.s.-mexico border in a city of about 200,000. twenty years ago there were 20 spanish language congregations, 2 english.



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Well I spilled it to the elders (elder)
by HowTheBibleWasCreated a day ago 11 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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HowTheBibleWasCreated
HowTheBibleWasCreated a day ago

An elder came over for a visit the other night (He couldn't get a partner) Personally I consider him a friend and have revieiled many things to him an figured the tie has come to step out of this religion slowly.
Well I finally told him I have no believe in the bible (Other then the confirmed history in it) or god. I did it slowly and tactfully and even non-agressive.
His response to learning I believe in evolution was that evolution doesn't happen now I respectfully disagreed and pointed out Lactose and alcohol tolerance among the last thousand years as well as tibetian lung/hearts. He refused to believe it. Sad.
He was sad because he realized I had proof...(or what he called... one-sided proof)*....But I firmly explained at this point I would not drag my wife down. He knows I support her no matter what she chooses. Also I explained I was willing to dabate anyone who left atheism and came to JWs.. he said he didn't know anyone...lol..... but would find someone. I said I would be happy to debate and have an open mind #
He left sad but not angry thus I partially accomplised my outing without a JC.
*One sided proof?... once I know of ERVS Chromosome #2 and other 28 points cofy mentioned recently what is to argue?
#Oh I have no problem with having an open mind to creation... but they must have 100% proof.
 +6 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

There are much more scientifically acquired documented information that clearly defines the Genesis account as just acknowledge and accepted ancient mythological expressions, such as the earth's own geological evolution, astrophysics and contravening archeological findings found and recognized from the ancient middle east .......the list goes on .

 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago



 +5 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a day ago
Chromosome 2 is what did it for me.
 +2 / -0
No Apologies
No Apologies a day ago

He doesn't believe in evolution because it's (supposedly) not happening anymore? And yet he probably has no problem with the stories of miracles in the Bible, even though they don't happen anymore either.
No Apologies
 +11 / -0
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut a day ago


But I firmly explained at this point I would not drag my wife down. He knows I support her no matter what she chooses
Drag your wife down where? Do you mean drag her down to your low level of existence as a non JW?

 
HowTheBibleWasCreated
HowTheBibleWasCreated a day ago
Pete: Yeah had you asked me a year ago i would have tried everything to get her out, but following many examples on here as well as using some pschylogical reasoning I have realized this is a poor method... I will support her religious choice... but leave myself open to her questions
 +4 / -0
HowTheBibleWasCreated
HowTheBibleWasCreated a day ago
Of course if they find my YouTube Channel I might be in trouble but thats a future issue lol
 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo a day ago

If you're not ready to be df'd then be careful what you say; even alone to a lone second elder - actually, a lone second anybody - who will stand as a witness in a J/C against you.
One is enough!
 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a day ago

Right...no need for a different flu shot as the living viruses do not evolve at all, right? MRSA didn't evolve either?
Some other examples:
http://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/



But don't try to convince him, it won't work. As long as he knows you made a rational decision based on a lot of evidence. He might not accept the evidence, but sure as hell cannot refute it.




 +1 / -0

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Well I spilled it to the elders (elder)
by HowTheBibleWasCreated a day ago 11 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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smiddy
smiddy a day ago

HTBWC ,
You are a prime example of when the J.W.`s discard the two witness rule ,if this guy dobs you in , they will want a J.C. meeting.
smiddy
 
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 12 hours ago

@Finkelstein,
Great movie clip, thanks for sharing!
 

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Topic Summary
an elder came over for a visit the other night (he couldn't get a partner) personally i consider him a friend and have revieiled many things to him an figured the tie has come to step out of this religion slowly.. well i finally told him i have no believe in the bible (other then the confirmed history in it) or god.
i did it slowly and tactfully and even non-agressive.. his response to learning i believe in evolution was that evolution doesn't happen now i respectfully disagreed and pointed out lactose and alcohol tolerance among the last thousand years as well as tibetian lung/hearts.
he refused to believe it.



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cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty 16 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty 5 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #27 - Monkeys, Typewriters, Shakespeare, 747s etc.
by cofty 18 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #25 - Deep Time
by cofty 24 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 25 days ago



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Jehovah's Witness Literature Warning Label
by freemindfade 2 days ago 5 Replies latest 17 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

I just had a thought. The government should do what they did with the tobacco industry and prescription drug industry and force the Watchtower corporation (also Mormons and Scientologists, etc) to print warnings on its misleading literature and pamphlets. They can have all their paradise panda petting, fruit eating, khaki pleated pants wearing bullshit propaganda on the front. But a little box on the back page maybe?
WARNING:  This group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leaders and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. The leaders are not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. The group is preoccupied with making money. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. The most loyal members feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. Join at your own risk.
 +3 / -0
nelim
nelim 2 days ago

Good idea but I recommend short and simple: on front cover Watchtower put a big box:

READING THIS IS DEADLY
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

Warning: Joining cults is harmful to your mental and social health. It can lead to: shunning, depression, loss of life, loss of friends, loss of family, uncontrollable fear, rampant guilt, shame, protection of pedophiles. Consult a mental health professional before trying this cult.
Maybe that would be better lol
 +5 / -0
pepperheart
pepperheart a day ago
The good news is that so far as the borg is concerned i doubt they will be printing much at all in a few years time.And when all the five and ten year old teaching books have been given out their trolleys will be almost empty

 
WTWizard
WTWizard 17 hours ago
A disclaimer on the whole Bible that it is full of lies (not mistakes, LIES) designed to damn and enslave the whole human race is also in order. That thing is nothing but stolen legends, corrupted so you cannot benefit from it, and coupled with a fake problem intended to enslave you to debt to be released (original sin). Any littera-trash based on this damnation book should also be outfitted with such a warning label, prominently displayed just above the foreword.

 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 17 hours ago


· Do you want to be prevented from celebrating Birthdays, Christmas and other celebrations and be told that if you do God will kill you soon?
· Do you want loved ones to die because 7 men in Brooklyn say you are not allowed a lifesaving Blood Transfusion?
· Do you want to belong to a religion that makes numerous false prophecies about the end of the world?
· Do you want to belong to a religion that hides the identities of paedophiles, won’t report them to the authorities and allows them to still associate with your children?
· Do you want to have ALL your thoughts controlled by 7 men in Brooklyn U.S.A?


If you answered ‘YES’ to these questions then you should join Jehovah’s Witnesses.


If you are still in doubt please visit - (Insert appropriate web address)



WARNING:
Please check the Sex Offenders Register before allowing a Jehovah’s Witness into your home.
 

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Am l the only one.?The older l become the more hostile l become towards god.
by atomant 2 days ago 26 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 2 days ago
They say you mellow out with age.Maybe so but not in my case.l feel its an insult and degrading to us humans to have to live the way we do if there is a god.Deep down l guess l do believe theres a god but lm having great difficulty trying to understand why things are the way they are.l dont need a bible bashing from anyone l just feel frustrated and helpless.l just battle on like everyone else but l get the feeling theres a whole lot more to our existence.

 +2 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry 2 days ago

As I age, the more introspective I become.
I believe in Intelligent Design.
I've been looking for the episode without success - but I feel like we are in an episode of the original Star Trek TV series, where "God" had created us as some kind of experiment, and is watching us as we "evolve."
The end game?
"God only knows."

 +1 / -0
talesin
talesin 2 days ago

When someone uses me (like g-d does), and wants my support (like g-d does), but is never *there* when I need them (like g-d), then I say "Buh-BYE" (which is what I said to g-d when I was 20, many years ago).
That's what I did when I was young, honest to God! : P

But seriously, I've not regretted that choice. Why keep begging for his approval and/or asking for his help?
I wish I could have let go of my parents as easily - but they are real.
bg - the fx - that big smiley head. They did several treatments (eg; greek-type g-d-like aliens - the first biracial kiss), but that was the one that really 'got' me when I was a kid. I've always thought that alien life forms were more plausible than g-d. Perhaps that's why, as a child, I loved ST so much. That, and its message of social justice and equality. Yay for the 60s! ; )
 
talesin
talesin 2 days ago

Or is it this one? (Not the one I was thinking of, but check out the plot on Wiki).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whom_Gods_Destroy_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)
This one (another personal fav)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Mourns_for_Adonais%3F

 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 2 days ago
If "He" is so magnificent and so on, I must amount to less than a speck. On the other hand, I am God to me, no one matters more at the first than me because we die alone. Now that said, it doesn't mean I am malevolent, just aware that this is probably my one time around so I try not to waste it, treat everyone else as if it's their only trip too and hope I don't get hit by a truck. Other than that? I expect "Him" to make up for my lack of understanding him since "He" appears to want it that way. If not? Oh well.

 +1 / -0
zeb
zeb 2 days ago
I have a sneaking belief that there is a lot more to our knowledge yet to come.
 +1 / -0
transhuman68
transhuman68 2 days ago
Nup. There is no god - never was, never will be. 'God' is just your conciseness, or maybe a group conciseness- but that's it. Why life seems so hard is that this religion stunts people's development - ordinary people have more willpower, competitiveness, and sense of meaning in their lives. Sounds selfish... blah blah blah but you need to find the strength from within yourself to make the best of a world that is far from perfect.
 +2 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 2 days ago
No. You are not the only one.
 
Bonsai
Bonsai 2 days ago
Yep. I'm the same way. Older I get the more ornery I get and the less time I have for BS and fantasies.

 +1 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 2 days ago
its totally beyond me why any intelligent person in this day and age would still cling to the god myth. do they really believe theres an invisible giant bloke out there in the universe masterminding everything?
 +3 / -1

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Am l the only one.?The older l become the more hostile l become towards god.
by atomant 2 days ago 26 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 2 days ago

No, I don't really get more hostile towards God.
What's the point getting uptight about someone that in all probability doesn't exist?
Total waste of time. 
 +1 / -0
cookiemaster
cookiemaster 2 days ago
I don't believe God exists, but if he were to exist, he would be the most evil and cruel being to have ever existed. The biggest asshole in the universe.
 +3 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago

Bonsai
Older I get the more ornery I get and the less time I have for BS and fantasies.
Ya I can hardly sit through a meeting anymore it just racks me up to no end. Agitates me to the point, I fantasy about throat punching the speaker for spewing so much nonsense. I only believe in evidence, its the aftermath of leaving a cult. My wife calls me the "world renowned skeptic".
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 2 days ago
I always had a problem with this idea that gods love yet sits back and does nothing to help mandkind. The Tsunami in 2004 along with the quake in Haiti were the last nails in the coffin watching my father die was the final nail I think. I no longer believe in a God that cares about anything on this planet.
 
HB
HB 2 days ago

YOUTH:
Lack of experience, idealism, heart rules head, lack of knowledge, gullibility, rose tinted glasses, seeking a mind blowing 'spiritual' experience and hoping this will teach us the ultimate 'truth' about life and its purpose. A hope for the future that if we work hard enough and follow a particular lifestyle, the answers to the meaning of life will eventually be revealed. The desire to be 'special' with esoteric knowledge not understood by many others, which we can then teach others to make ourselves feel important and superior. The feeling that we have the power to single-handedly change the world if we are determined enough or have sufficient faith.
AGE:
Rationality, scepticism about the supernatural due to lack of evidence, disbelief in any gods, especially caring and loving ones, frustration at not having found finding answers to the suffering in the world, a realisation of our own insignificance and acceptance of our ineffectiveness and impotence to make significant changes without the help of others.
(On second thoughts, sorry, perhaps 'impotence' was not a good choice of words in relation to age!)
But also a sense of contentment in realising there is no benefit in wishful thinking and relief and a sense of peace at coming to terms with reality.
Atomant, I dont know how old you are, but I very much understand the feelings you expressed in your opening post.
I have found that as a Humanist, my aim to do whatever little good I can wherever and whenever I can, gives satisfaction and meaning to my brief existence.
Although I abhor the amount of suffering in the world, my acceptance that there is no god or other supernatural power who is going to step in and change everything to take away the pain, injustice and inequalities in the world, leads to a deep sense of personal responsibility to do my bit.
And a belief in the collective responsibility of all of us humans to work together to make the necessary changes, not wait for an unknown invisible power to finally wave a magic wand.
Change for the better is frustratingly slow but it's speeding up in recent times. It's not a coincidence that the more secular our society has become, the more science and technology and society have had the freedom to make advances and improvements that have alleviated suffering.
There's still a long way to go, of course, but I fear the frustration and helplessness you expressed in your opening post will likely lead to cynicism and depression unless you can find a way to appreciate the positive progress we are making.
It's all too easy to focus on the headlines of bad news like terrorism and crime, but when you step back and compare life now to any time in history, it is clear that overall we are becoming more humane as a society as we lose belief in gods and take on belief in our own power to effect change for the good, in the long term.
 +1 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 2 days ago

@ atomant:
You certainly aren't the only one.
Most people get by because of god. I get by in spite of god.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 days ago
I definitely do as well, its the sheer lunacy, the unanswered questions, the insane dick waving competition that us mere mortals are stuck in the middle of , how many more millions need to die?, how much more does the earth need to be populated by? its all become a sick joke by now, I feel betrayed that a so called creator of the universe who has allegedly made us in his image continues this sick,stupid selfish game, and as the years pass the stupidity of the bible becomes more and more obvious, the scientific impossibility of the creative, days ,the recordings of his vengeful,hateful,spiteful punishments that he continually gave to his so called children/creations. The questions seem more and more incapable of being answered.
 +1 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 days ago

If a god existed, and I am highly confident that none of the gods of men's creation do exist, then he/she/it (I will stick with 'he') is a bastard for doing nothing in most cases where he could. He is great evil.
Just to stick to one type of evil- If there is some lesson to be learned, some greater good to be had, by the suffering of children by disaster or at the hands of men, then 'God' is asking too high a price for that lesson or greater good. It's not worth the price.
 +2 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 2 days ago

I don't feel hostile to God. I have just come to the conclusion he's not there. I do agree there is a whole lot more to our existence. It's a waste of time getting angry at reality, just try and find out more about it.
Just put any question you like into a search engine, read all the ideas that are out there and after some years, decide for yourself. The answers aren't on this forum, there's not enough room allowed here for total brainstorming, too much fear of other's opinions. Good luck.
 +2 / -0
Twitch
Twitch 2 days ago

I've spent a lot of time being angry over the god question, the beliefs of others and what I believe to be right.
However, I've come to terms with the question and no longer feel anger. It's rather nice actually.
 

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they say you mellow out with age.maybe so but not in my case.l feel its an insult and degrading to us humans to have to live the way we do if there is a god.deep down l guess l do believe theres a god but lm having great difficulty trying to understand why things are the way they are.l dont need a bible bashing from anyone l just feel frustrated and helpless.l just battle on like everyone else but l get the feeling theres a whole lot more to our existence.



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Am l the only one.?The older l become the more hostile l become towards god.
by atomant 2 days ago 26 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 2 days ago

The world just makes sense once you let go of supernatural answers.
Of course there is loads we don't know but I'm ok with that.
Don't attempt to choose your beliefs. Just keep reading, listening, debating and thinking. Seek out the strongest arguments against your current position.
Your beliefs will take care of themselves.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 days ago
As others have said, I try not to get hostile towards imaginary beings. I do, however, only seem to grow more hostile towards those that presume to speak for said imaginary beings as I age.
 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

First off, getting older makes you cranky. I mean, after all, we're on Death Row and our shelf date is creeping up on us. Who wouldn't be pissed?
But, the whole "God" thing is so shapeless and subjective to me at this point in life, how could I get angry at a floating blob of imaginary nothingness?
Humans are a drop in the ocean and I don't know why an actual "god" would bother with us unless we are the celestial Grand Poohbah's version of Soap Opera.
So, having said that . . . I get peevish with the "true Believer" who is absolutely convinced about god and simply won't rest until they've made it quite clear how annoyed they are I don't join them in the jamboree.
I do get to opt out. But, they resent my exercising the right to remain silent when not speaking to deity. Instead, I end up talking to them--the deafest of all hearing-impaired on earth.
Smile and nod. Works in most situations.
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 days ago

Just the night before this was posted, as I was getting ready for bed, I announced, "Ok God, Gods, Jesus, Angels, Guardians, Ascended Masters, Aliens, ect, I'm done with you. Unless you show me something concrete, or actually come to see me or pick me up in a space-ship, we are done. I'm not putting forth any more effort to track you down, or spending another insomnia filled night on the Internnet, trying to pick though unending assertions and bullshit. Show me something if you want me for some great purpose, give me powers, otherwise we are done."
I will let you know how it goes.
DD
 +1 / -0
someDUDEinAsmallCubicalSomewhereOverTheRAINBOX
someDUDEinAsmallCubicalSomewhereOverTheRAINBOX 2 days ago
The God in the Bible is a despicable prick. In some ways, I wish Satan would destroy his lame ass. That's the only happy ending IMO.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 days ago
the hostility that comes from within is the fact that I once believed it and that normal sane intelligent people believe it.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours a day ago

Same attitude here. I find myself verbally insulting him under my breath often.
I could not agree anymore with Sam Harris' view in his utube video 'Morality and the Christian God'. Check it out.
DY
 +1 / -0

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they say you mellow out with age.maybe so but not in my case.l feel its an insult and degrading to us humans to have to live the way we do if there is a god.deep down l guess l do believe theres a god but lm having great difficulty trying to understand why things are the way they are.l dont need a bible bashing from anyone l just feel frustrated and helpless.l just battle on like everyone else but l get the feeling theres a whole lot more to our existence.



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Don't Accept the Blame for Being Shunned
by cofty 4 days ago 22 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Our family and friends blame us for the fact that they shun us.
Imagine an abusive husband who threatened his wife that if she leaves him he will hunt her down and kill her. Eventually she finds the courage to leave and he carries out his threat. In court his lawyer argues that the wife knew the consequences of leaving and so it was not his client's fault but the victim's.
This is the twisted ethics of the cult mind.
Don't play along.

 +30 / -0
KateWild
KateWild 4 days ago

Good OP,
I don't accept shunning full stop. I talk to JWs whenever I see them. I am polite and friendly and if I have time to stop and chat I express my loss of faith and my reasons. Some JWs will respond and others will shun. But I certainly don't take responsibility for being Df'd and shunned.
Kate xx
 +10 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 4 days ago

Amen!
Besides, Watchtower encourages young people not to get married too young (read: before they are at least 25), but on the other hand they pressure JW into getting their kids baptized as soon as they can ring a doorbell and hand out a tract.
How do these kids really understand the consequences of 'their' choice?
If you're not mature enough to commit to a marriage partner for life, you're not mature enought to commit to a God or Watchtower for life!
It may be that your parents would object because they feel that you are too young to make such an important decision. They may fear that your tastes will change as you mature and that you will soon regret your choice of marriage mate. [...]

Marriage should be undertaken only when we are physically, mentally, and spiritually ready to take on an enduring partnership.
Wise parents carefully teach their children a dignified view of marriage. They neither urge their children to marry for money nor pressure them to begin dating when still too young to take on adult roles and responsibilities. (1 Corinthians 7:36)
It is a fact that your tastes will change as you mature. “When I was a babe,” writes the apostle Paul, “I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a babe.” (1 Corinthians 13:11) Likewise, the traits in another person that appeal to you as a teenager will likely be quite different from those that will appeal to you when you are older. Thus, the Bible recommends that you wait until you are “past the bloom of youth”—the years when your sexual desire is at its peak—before you take the serious step of choosing a marriage mate.—1 Corinthians 7:36.

The Bible does not suggest that baptism is a step to be taken only by those who are older or who have reached at least an age at which certain legal rights may be granted. We read at Proverbs 20:11: “Even a child is known by his actions, whether his behavior is pure and right.” One who is somewhat younger can realize what it means to do what is right and to be dedicated to his Creator. Thus, baptism is an important and appropriate step for a young person who has manifested considerable maturity and has made a dedication to Jehovah.—Prov. 20:7.

At the various assemblies and conventions this year, it has been a real joy to see so many who have qualified for baptism. Among them were some quite young in years. You parents are to be commended for raising your children to have an appreciation for the truth and for encouraging them to make a dedication to serve Jehovah when young.
 +6 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 4 days ago

@KateWild,
Same here. Some family members 'preemptively' shun me. I just continue to treat them well, and contact them whenever I feel like it is a normal thing to do.
If they don't want that they better take steps themselves, as I won't conform to their announcement 'we have decided to limit our contact with you'.


 +2 / -0
jhine
jhine 4 days ago

All good posts .
Jan
 
Sabin
Sabin 4 days ago
I will talk to nice JW's now who i know are sincere human beings that have been mind controlled. As for the ones who are not, they can kiss my golf ball arse.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 4 days ago

Watchtower encourages young people not to get married too young (read: before they are at least 25), but on the other hand they pressure JW into getting their kids baptized as soon as they can ring a doorbell and hand out a tract.
Image result for trap
It's part of their plan to trap them and keep them in the cult forever.
Doc

 +6 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago


cofty - "Imagine an abusive husband who threatens his wife..."
Not the worst comparison, considering how lightly the Org treats spousal abuse.
 +3 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 days ago
So true. So many leave the organization in shame and with their head held low. When I reached out to my DFed brother after 14 years or so I think he still carried that shame. He is in therapy now and deals with PTSD due to it all. My wife and I walked out of our own accord and with our heads held high. Even then we still felt some blame at first for being the lone dissenters and messing up the family. Not now. Their shunning is on them. Great post Cofty.
 +2 / -0
Tornintwo
Tornintwo 4 days ago
I feel terrible now about the way I used to view things with twisted thinking due to mind control. When people said JWs break up families, I argued wrongly that it was the one who left who chose to destroy the family by turning their back on the one true religion. Now I realise how twisted and sick the reasoning is; you change your faith for whatever conscientious reason you may have, we will shun you, then we will blame you for causing the rift in the family. This mental abuse is particularly damaging for young people. I sincerely hope it comes back to haunt them in the ARC, and the charity commission investigation results.
 +5 / -0

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Don't Accept the Blame for Being Shunned
by cofty 4 days ago 22 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Phizzy
Phizzy 4 days ago

I agree fully with all of the above. It annoyed me when my mum, referring to our leaving, said something along the lines of : "......... what you have done to the family"
I pointed out to her that we have done nothing to justify a change in the way the family treat us and view us, we simply do not attend at a Kingdom Hall anymore. She simply shrugged her shoulders and continued to blame us in her mind, I am sure.
 +4 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago


Phizzy - "She simply shrugged her shoulders and continued to blame us in her mind, I am sure."
For a loyalist to do otherwise would break said mind, I'm sure.
 
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Thanks for all your input on this topic.
The broken relationships are NOT our fault.
 +4 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 3 days ago

Thank you, cofty, for this thread.
To some JWs, I have endeavored to explain my points of view on religious life style and doctrine. Since I have become what is now "old school," I see that many of the old teachings have been tossed aside: types and antitypes, among others.
I had a special place in my heart for the anointed remnant and their position in different classes, i.e., "Naomi and Ruth," etc. Younger ones cannot understand the basis for my now obsolete faith. So then, it would appear that my inability to grasp onto and revere the new, slick religion -- JW.ORG -- makes my relationship with Jehovah (if such remains) suspect.
If I cannot wholeheartedly jump in and support current JW dogma and practice, I am avoided and, yes, on occasion, shunned. It may not be my fault -- thanks for the reassurance, cofty -- yet, it still hurts.
CoCo
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

Avoiding witnesses or not greeting them is playing by their distorted rules!
If you like someone, say Hi, if not dont. But certainly the choice remains ours....NOT theirs. If they ignore, then they look silly, not us....
 +2 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago
I run into Witnesses every day but I usually keep quiet because of my introverted nature. When they're open to talking I just share some niceties but afterwards I get suspicious and wonder why they even spoke to me knowing that I was disfellowshipped. Usually I just nod my head as I pass them.
 
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

I would also say, don't accept they aren't to blame for them shunning us.
Everybody has a choice to do the right thing or not. They should not get to say "oh, I have to shun you". Make it clear that we know the choice is THEIRS and that THEY are choosing to shun us.
 +4 / -0
gone for good
gone for good 3 days ago

We created their  problem that triggered the shunning -by refusing to believe or teach their falsehoods.
We deny their solution by never returning to believing and teaching what we know to be false.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

I would also say, don't accept they aren't to blame for them shunning us. - Simon
I think this is an important point. Stop being so understanding with friends and relatives about shunning.
Their actions are unconscionable and don't let them forget it.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

Yeah, when they give the excuse that "they are not allowed to talk to us" or "they have to shun us" just don't accept it. Don't allow them to pass the buck to the WTS for what they are doing.
Make it clear that it is THEY who are doing the shunning because THEY chose to.
They have a choice and if they are making it then they should own it.
We should stop taking part in excusing shunning by putting all blame for it on the WTS. They can't shun anyone.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
our family and friends blame us for the fact that they shun us.
imagine an abusive husband who threatened his wife that if she leaves him he will hunt her down and kill her.
eventually she finds the courage to leave and he carries out his threat.



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Don't Accept the Blame for Being Shunned
by cofty 4 days ago 22 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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freemindfade
freemindfade 3 days ago
This is a very valuable OP. Once you breakthrough exactly what he has said you've made a big step in freeing your mind. When I really got over this during the beginning of my waking I went from feeling bad for myself to feeling bad for them! They are making an awful choice, its a shame for them. The best people in your lives are the ones that stick by you no matter what, anyone else you can afford to lose, they will either come around or not but you need to go forward and only look back to see how far you've come.
 +2 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago

IDD.
Say something simple so shocked shunners show shamed sentiments.
I will actively approach those who most wish to avoid me, and cheerfully make smalltalk. They will mostly cringe and suffer because they can't stand me being cheerful with them, while I oughta be ashamed or depressed.
While they probably assume I should be in desperate need of their attention and company, I will show them I am very much happy without that.
It's just that I love to make them feel the immorality of all shades of shunning, and I love that look of cognitive dissonance replacing the Watchtower Shunning Grin on their faces :grinning:
Nothing beats ignoring Watchtower rules...
 +5 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago

Own it, Andersen.
 +1 / -0

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our family and friends blame us for the fact that they shun us.
imagine an abusive husband who threatened his wife that if she leaves him he will hunt her down and kill her.
eventually she finds the courage to leave and he carries out his threat.



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by What Now? 3 months ago
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by stephanie61092 2 months ago
Leela1
Closer/death/Funerals
by Leela1 16 days ago



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The Kingdom Message
by truth doubter 4 days ago 15 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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truth doubter
truth doubter 4 days ago
Regarding the unique preaching of the kingdom by WT (new creation, heavenly kings, priests and judges, restoration of paradise on earth etc.). The scriptures seem to back up WTS interpretation. So, although there are a million reasons to become inactive, how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at Matt. 24:14? I know there are many possibilities. How have all who left processed this informaion?
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago

because the entire bible is a fraud, a scam, jesus christ (lower case on purpose) was a false prophet who duped and lied to his followers, everything from being born from a virgin birth, to raising the dead, healing the sick, feeding masses of people and performing other so called miracles is a lie and a fraud and therefore any sort of scriptural commands (none of which is original) should be treated with the contempt it deserves, my conscience allows me to do this very easily and so should yours, dont worry too much about a non event. There is no kingdom, no good news, no requirement to preach,get over it.
 +1 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 4 days ago
Do you honestly believe that a loving God would destroy more than 8 billion people or 99.99% of the world's population simply because they are not convinced that JW's have the truth???
 +6 / -0
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 4 days ago
After I spent pioneering 9 years everything I taught was changed and is now considered apostate teachings. Preaching their kingdom is like stacking BB's. Get a life.

 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at Matt. 24:14?
"The good news of the kingdom" that was the focus of Jesus and the early church had to do with redemption through Jesus.
It had absolutely nothing to do with armageddon.
On his last evening with his disciples Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit who would;

"Bear witness about me, and you in turn are to bear witness, because you have been with me from when I began."(Jhn.15:26,27)
Immediately prior to his ascension Jesus told them ;
"You will be witnesses of me..to the most distant part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
Paul said that the minds of unbelievers had been blinded so that:
"The glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. For we are preaching not ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord." (2Cor.4:4,5)
In Revelation the dragon goes off to wage war with those who:
"Have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."
The harlot is seen to be;
"Drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."
When John falls down before the angel he receives the rebuke:
"Be careful do not do that. All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus."
The Watchtower preach a different "good news" for which John says they should be accursed.
 +8 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 4 days ago

how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at Matt. 24:14
Do you mean in association with JWs? If so, consider the following:
Suppose that the JW interpretation is correct - that there's a government ruling in heaven that's going to soon take complete control of earth and that all opposers will be destroyed. Could it really be said that JWs are preaching this message in all the inhabited earth? No, there are large portions of the population who will never be exposed to JWs. And even in places where JWs are actively preaching, are they really preaching the aforementioned message?
The JW preaching work is lame and inefficient. The message might be in there somewhere, but it's buried under mounds of fluff. The majority of people who have had JWs "preach" to them have no idea what the message is. Most JWs are not qualified to preach. They can't reason and answer questions.
When we first started fading, I asked my wife if she was completely convinced that we should fade. Her one hesitation had to do with Mt 24:14. She said "but who else is fulfilling Mt 24:14?" I said "Do you really think JWs are fulfilling it?" I then proceeded to remind her how lame the JW preaching work is. I mentioned how the mags are filled with fluff, how JWs cheat on their time, how most individual JWs are incapable, etc. She instantly got the point.
So, to me, JWs are not fulfilling Mt 24:14.
 +2 / -0
Tornintwo
Tornintwo 4 days ago

I was 'stuck' on the way out of this religion on Matt 24:14 believing as all JWs do that they are the only ones doing the preaching work. The truth is we were told over and over and over again that they are the only ones doing any preaching work, that's just propaganda and is not accurate. Most of the time they are following in the footsteps of the missionaries of mainstream christianity without whom JWs wouldn't be able to have got any foothold in many non Western lands.
A quick visit to jwfacts will sort this out
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/preach.php
I particularly like the details about The Jesus Film Project, a non denominational film of the Gospel of John which has been shown more than 6 billion times since 1979 throughout the world, is translated into 1300 languages with new languages added every month and has resulted in over 200 million people accepting Christ.
 +2 / -0
Robo Bobo
Robo Bobo 4 days ago

Colossians 1:13 - He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son.
Are you referring to preaching about a kingdom that was established in 1914 and will be ruled mostly by white 21st century American men from heaven over the earth?
It seems that Paul believed that the kingdom was already present in his time. Notice "transferred" is in the past tense.
My conscience wouldn't allow me to preach wt doctrine.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 4 days ago

The scriptures seem to back up WTS interpretation.
Er...No. I hasten to disagree. Although Jesus spoke of his kingdom, I see nothing in The Bible about 1914, 1919, an invisible "presence" , or having the WTB & T Soc. spawning a f & d slave.
So I had to stop taking the WT lit from house to house
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 4 days ago

how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at Matt. 24:14?
Just how "ACTIVE" do you think JWs are in fulfilling this command? So far, after more than 100 years of "preaching the good news" they have only convinced 1 of 1,000 persons on earth to follow them.
Any other Fortune 500 Company would fire them and hire a new PR or recruiting agent. JWs have done a shitty job representing Jesus & Jehovah. Many are now even embarrassed to be known as JWs. Consider how Geoffrey Jackson failed to use the opportunity at the ARC to give a thorough "witness". He "pussed out".
Doc

 +1 / -0

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The Kingdom Message
by truth doubter 4 days ago 15 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Robo Bobo
Robo Bobo 4 days ago

So far, after more than 100 years of "preaching the good news" they have only convinced 1 of 1,000 persons on earth to follow them.

Yes, other groups without "divine backing" have done much better. Pentecostals, for instance, started in 1906? and now have 200+ million members worldwide.
 
sparky1
sparky1 4 days ago
I wouldn't get too worried about doing the preaching work anymore. Find an unbound copy of The Watchtower from January 1, 1989. It contains the following quote: "He (Paul) was also laying a foundation for a work (the preaching work) that would be completed in our 20th century." - pg 12 paragraph 8. By their own words, you are off the hook!
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 4 days ago

truth doubter wrote:
So, although there are a million reasons to become inactive, how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at Matt. 24:14?
Out of genuine interest, could you elaborate and share with us what specific reasons come to your mind "to become inactive"?
Thanks. Steve
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 days ago

So, although there are a million reasons to become inactive, how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at Matt. 24:14? I know there are many possibilities.
I understood the preaching we were engaged in related to Revelation 14:7. Good news and a judgment message.
The Watchtower March 15 1970.Pg. 174
 The present-day “good News” concerning God's kingdom is that it has been established in heaven in this very generation; yes, that Jesus Christ has been enthroned there and is ruling in the midst of his enemies. This means that Satan the Devil has been cast from heaven to the vicinity of the earth, and that he will soon be abyssed and his entire wicked system of things destroyed. What good news.
So when I felt I was no longer convinced of this my conscience would not allow me to join as a witness in preaching it.
 +1 / -0
Alive!
Alive! 3 days ago

When it dawned on me, that my 'activity' in preaching the WT good news involved distributing literature that was dishonest in using quotes, presented scriptural interpretation NOT as a gentle nudge to think and search for God, but as absolute truth which if rejected, would be considered rejection of Jehovah.
And the interpretations were not true, were misleading and have changed.
It's one thing to publish and lay out 'thoughts' for consideration, it's another thing to condemn people to be 'rejecting God' because they didn't accept books telling of angelic trumpet blasts representing obscure conventions in some corner of America.
How rude. Beyond rude.
 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 3 days ago

Truth doubter I was a pioneer, I had many Bible studies, I believed the Bible was God’s word and that the JW org was the channel which God was using.
Then I thought: where is the evidence that this stuff is true? None of it can be proved!
It’s all propaganda...the Bible is just human in origin I realized, man is hundreds of thousands of years old, Adam and Eve and the flood are obviously myth, there is no concrete evidence that Jesus ever existed, Jehovah began life as an ox-headed idol, religion is all spin, Jehovah’s Witnesses have never got anything of use correct, the JW org is a self interested and lying cult which keeps its followers in ignorance and in a state of humiliating dependency.
I still go out in the field service... but only in my nightmares.
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
regarding the unique preaching of the kingdom by wt (new creation, heavenly kings, priests and judges, restoration of paradise on earth etc.).
the scriptures seem to back up wts interpretation.
so, although there are a million reasons to become inactive, how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at matt.



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Preaching the "good news"
by truth doubter 4 days ago 16 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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truth doubter
truth doubter 4 days ago
Just wondering. What do those who left WT, and still believe the bible, feel about Matt.24:14?
 
Landy
Landy 4 days ago

Was walking down Berwick town centre this morning and there was some guy limply holding a watchtower out wrapped in plastic - not sure that qualifies as preaching.
 
Bobcat
Bobcat 4 days ago

Contextually, Mt 24:14 was referring to events that were to take place leading up to the end of Jerusalem and the temple (that actually occurred in the 66-70 AD time). (Compare what was to happen afterwards: Mt 24:15-20.)
"Inhabited earth" (oikoumenē) in the NT generally refers to the area occupied by the Roman Empire or the then known world. (Compare e.g. Luke 2:1; Acts 11:28) And Paul indicated that he understood this to have already happened before the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70. (Rom 16:25, 26; Col 1:23)
That's not to say that Jesus' disciples weren't commanded to preach to the literal ends of the earth (Mt 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). But Mt 24:14 itself is not saying that, if you go strictly by the context. Although, I think a JW and others also, would argue for a dual fulfillment.
(Expanding out in the context, Mt 24:14 would also be limited in time to "this generation" in Mt 24:34.)
Bobcat
 +2 / -0
atomant
atomant 4 days ago
what good news.The bible is full of doom and gloom and misinterpreted.The only good verses is the song of solomon .

 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Was walking down Berwick town centre this morning - Landy
You don't mean this Berwick do you?



 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

What do those who left WT, and still believe the bible, feel about Matt.24:14?
The Watchtower has not preached the true Gospel described in the bible but a tainted commercialized version a different Gospel, a pretentiously false Gospel in other words.
When its also realized that the date calculated by this specific religious publishing house as in 1914 was done so without scriptural support and was actually against Jesus's own instructions to how his Gospel was to be accepted and preached, this adds more falsity of what the WTS has been involved in all these years. 

 +3 / -0
atomant
atomant 4 days ago
Exactly right wouldnt you have to feel like a dork going door to door preaching the good news then have to go back and try and explain how the light has changed and weve got a new story to tell.No wonder people slam the door or wont listen.They must think the dubs are a pack of dorks.

 +3 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 4 days ago

The facts are Jehovah`s Witnesses have never gone out in fulfillment of Mt.24:14 , all they have done is follow in the footsteps of the Catholics and Protestants who have largely fulfilled that scripture.
And J.W`s have poached off of them ever since.
And as has been said above , what Good News have they preached , they keep changing the goal posts.They don`t even know what they believe anymore , if ever they really did.
smiddy
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago

Live as a Christian if one must.
After all, ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS.
 +2 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 4 days ago

Truth doubter, that 's a very good Q. i shall have to give it some thought? i suppose you would have to ask the Q what interpretation of good news did you think you were preaching when you were in. For some it was about getting them to the hall & hours. For me it was just letting people know that all the suffering would come to an end 7 the ones that enjoyed the suffering of others would come to an end also. I never had a problem with that personally (still don't, pedos deserve to die). I guess as silly as it sounds to others their is a part of me that hopes it is true. Helps me to cope with cruel things that happen around the world.
Stuckin, actions speak louder, my sentiments exactly.
 

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Preaching the "good news"
by truth doubter 4 days ago 16 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Landy
Landy 4 days ago

You don't mean this Berwick do you?
That's the one - he was stood outside the Ponden Mill shop.

 +1 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 days ago

feel about Matt.24:14?
I'm not sure that I understand your question
When I left the Witnesses at first I felt that they are fulfilling Matt 24:14 and they are the only ones doing this work, which left me feeling bad as I had been part of it but now I was no longer joining them in this work. I no longer feel like thit.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

Putting it concisely, the JWS are false preachers and teachers of the Kingdom, they are not preaching for Jesus Christ they are preaching for a false corrupt publishing house, exploiting bible Scripture toward its own inherent will and purpose.

False prophets can never be considered to be guided by god and his holy spirit.
Jesus himself clearly laid identifiers to who is a false prophet and what to do when you are confronted by them.

 +1 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 4 days ago
Fink, you have taken Geff Jacko's statement to the ARC to heart, "it would be presumptsous of us to say that we are the only ones who speak for Jehovah." No Geff you don't say, well look at the Mormons, double the members double the hours, & just as nuts.
 
truth doubter
truth doubter 4 days ago

I was specifically referring to the "Kingdom" message. WT has explained many aspects of the kingdom (kings priests taken from earth, a new creation, judges, the restoration of paradise on earth etc.) WT is unique in preaching this informaion. There are many scriptural references that appear to back these aspects. However, maybe it was only meant to be preached in the 1st century. Rev. 6 mentions parallel events and to what extent should we feel that Jesus meant armagedden also?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 days ago

I was specifically referring to the "Kingdom" message. WT has explained many aspects of the kingdom
I was thinking of this with regard to the Kingdom message, taken from the book "Babylon The Great Has Fallen!" God's Kingdom Rules! Chapter 21 Under the subheading Good News and a Judgement Message ( www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/babylon/babylon21.html)


The news of God's kingdom, even when it was yet coming, was gospel or good news. (Matthew 4:23; Mark 1:14, 15) The news that God's kingdom was already set up and put in operation in the heavens was still better news. First in 1920 did we discern that the good news of God's kingdom as established in the heavens in 1914 (A.D.) was to be preached in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14. This verse was the theme text of the article "Gospel of the Kingdom" that was published in The Watch Tower in English under date of July 1, 1920. In the last paragraph on page 199, the article quoted Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:14 and then went on to say:

It will be noted he does not say the gospel that has been preached to the meek throughout the entire Gospel age shall be preached. What gospel then could he mean? The gospel means good news. The good news here is concerning the end of the old order of things and the establishment of Messiah's kingdom. It means the dark night of sin and sorrow is passing away. It means that Satan's empire is falling, never to rise again. . . .
. . . Plainly this would seem to indicate that now the church must engagethe proclamation of this good news as a witness to the nations of earth, and then the old order will entirely pass away and the new will be here...





Shortly afterward, namely, on Friday, September 8, 1922, at an international assembly of unsectarian Bible students in Cedar Point, Ohio, in an address on "The Kingdom" at 9:30 a.m., it was said to them that they must be witnesses of the Lord God, that is, Jehovah's witnesses. The speaker, J. F. Rutherford, then president of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, quoted to the assembled thousands Isaiah 43:8-12 (AV) and then proceeded to say:

Thus we see that those of the temple class are clearly designated as the Lord's witnesses at this time, to bring a message of consolation to the people, that the kingdom of heaven is here, and that millions now living will never die...




 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 days ago

I think that this book was published in 1963 and maybe the message 'millions now living' may have had some relevance with,
'the combined number of Kingdom advertisers around the earth numbered more than a million in April. — Revelation 7:9,10.' ("Babylon The Great Has Fallen!" God's Kingdom Rules!)
but not sure that it would now.
I think this Cedar Point Ohio mentioned in the quote is also the when the sounding of the seven trumpets got under way according to them.
 

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Topic Summary
just wondering.
what do those who left wt, and still believe the bible, feel about matt.24:14?



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The Modern Exodus: Perception or Reality?
by Hadriel 5 days ago 43 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Hadriel
Hadriel 5 days ago

I'm completely new at this however just in my joining this forum and of course interacting with others I can't help but notice what appears to be a significant exodus from the organization.
For those of you that have long been in this game have you seen this before? I'm really curious and we should refrain from the sensational, but is what we're seeing different than in years past?
It sure seems like so so many are waking and leaving. It may take up to a year or more to truly see the effects but I believe completely it's significant, however I have nothing to compare it to. That's where you come in, so speak your peace, thx.
 +5 / -0
Ignoranceisbliss
Ignoranceisbliss 5 days ago
I don't think an exodus is happening YET. But as a still active dub I think it's on its way. I think the next ten years is going to be incredibly interesting for dub-watchers.
 +4 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 5 days ago

I felt the same way when I first joined the forum. I don't think what's happening could be accurately described as an exodus, more like a steady stream.
What I do think is significant, though, is the reasons people have been giving for showing up here in the past year or so. A lot of the folks that left a long time ago cite a lack of love or bully elders, etc as their reason for leaving. Before the only big doctrinal issues that seem to have woken up a good number were 607 and blood. There seems to have been a shift of late, though. People joining often cite a few common, org-wide, reasons for being here. It's the broadcasts and zone visits giving them a look at the true GB, it's overlapping generations, and ARC. These are no longer local issues waking people up, they're systemic. I think that will add up to a more consistent stream out of the org, and I think the people leaving for these reasons are more likely to research and wake up vs those that leave because a few elders wronged them and might be convinced to return.
 +19 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 5 days ago

Hadriel back a couple of years ago some one would put up a post with the names of all the new ones. 20 ot 30 over a couple of months
I don't think it's possible to do that any longer. So every time I visit this forum I click on Users to see how many have joined in the last 24 hours! and it seems to be 4 or 5 a day or a healthy congregation of 120 to 150 every month.
TTATT is only a click away, advice and a warm greeting is only a couple of clicks away......... one click to get here....... one click to sign up....... one click to be a participating member. Ton's of interesting stuff to read.
I have forgotten how many service hours it takes to convert one person for the JW's. Was it as much as 50,000 hours? people get reconverted or learn TTATT in hours, days or a week or two.....the truth self service style.
The Society has the quaint notion that it's followers will not be curious. They now have the tool to learn on their own. The fearful and weak minded won't be curious but anyone with a brain will look and click and click.
In an area of total information access the Society has been dumbing down the religion and it's message.
 +12 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 5 days ago

Grouped together here, it might seem that there is a mass exodus. However, the reality is that different individuals are waking up at different times at different locations all around the world. We have yet to see a mass exodus involving a large number of individuals in one place - an entire congregation leaving, for example. The last time that happened was after the failed 1975 prophecy
The growth definitely has slowed, as evidenced by the 2015 worldwide work statistics, but there is still a bit of growth. If most countries show a negative growth & there is a significant decrease of a few hundred thousand publishers in the overall figure (which I hope would happen one day), then we are talking about a REAL mass exodus!
 +1 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 5 days ago

To be clear I don't feel one way or the other about it honestly. I suspect most of you feel the same. Things become so firm in your mind that you don't need a confirmation.
So that isn't my point here. More about simply are we seeing the start of something larger or not. I just keep seeing folks bail left and right and it makes me wonder but I have no history for comparison.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 5 days ago

I think it's both. Some of it is indeed perception - the organization has always been one of churn but now people who leave can easily find each other and talk about it instead of just fading away or living isolated. But the growth has slowed which could well be because the rate of churn has increased.
Where they grow and shrink also changes - many western countries peaked and are now stagnant or in decline, their growth is elsewhere so for us we see more people leaving.
Here's an experiment if you spent an extended period in on hall. Think about when you were a kid and go through all the people who were in your congregation. How many were still there when you left? It's amazing how many actually left before us (and may have left since) but because it's over a long period of time and other people replace them it's less noticeable and seems more static than it otherwise would be when you are still in.
When you are out, you see all the people joining us on the outside.
 +6 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 5 days ago

I felt the same way when I first joined the forum. I don't think what's happening could be accurately described as an exodus, more like a steady stream. ~ OneEyedJoe
I've been here about 5 years. There has always been a steady stream of new members. But back then you could tip-toe through the stream. Today, you have to swim across. Very soon, I expect (hope) you'll need a rowboat.
Doc

 +6 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 5 days ago

There's more than one kind of exodus.
As far as I'm concerned, we are the exodus.
 +4 / -0
just fine
just fine 5 days ago
I think I the past the organization wanted us to all be isolated even from other xjws and with the internet we are not. That takes away the shame and influence they can exert.
 

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The Modern Exodus: Perception or Reality?
by Hadriel 5 days ago 43 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Cheeto
Cheeto 5 days ago
I left 33 years ago. When I left, you couldn't locate people that left also. Since the Internet tho, it's easier to see how many people have left after I left. Now we can talk to each other, and encourage each other and help others still under its spell. I believe the Internet is just making it easier for us to see it.
 +1 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 5 days ago

@Vidiot I'm waiting for the t-shirts....


WE ARE EXODUS
 +7 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago
it certainly is an exodus albeit slow but steady , the interweb has been so fundamental in helping people get equipped with the info to leave this group, I Ieft when the interweb was very much in its embryo stage I really wonder how many it has helped, this forum alone has thousands of members, add social media,blogs,Amazon and eBay normal web platforms etc it truly is remarkable and it will continue.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

It should be realized that the easy accessibility to information on the inter-net is putting a lot of awareness out to the public about what are the operations of this particular religious sect . Part that information contains some the most incredulous lies and deceptions that this religious publishing house propagated out its own literature proliferation agenda.
The recent decline in numbers of ones being baptized such as in US is a good indicator of that growing decline in adherence to the JW organization.
This acknowledgement that the WTS has been deviously corrupt in its operations has draw attention by many of its involving followers and not surprisingly there is greater preponderance of information about the JWS that is damaging than what there is positive. 

 +2 / -0
cookiemaster
cookiemaster 4 days ago
First of all, welcome Hadriel! Nice username choice. I think the number of JWs leaving has seen steady increase for some time now. Especially since the internet has reached the mainstream. The more people are out, the more there are to help others see the organization for the cult that it is and encourage them to leave. I think what we're seeing is a domino effect of an exponential nature. The effect will gain more momentum and accelerate over time. And let's not forget they're on a timer. The more time passes without Armageddon coming, the sillier their beliefs seem.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

The other thing to not be dismissive about is that the WTS has been making grandiose proclamations that mankind is living in the last days as prophesied in the bible and has been doing so for well over a 100 years now.

Those proclamations are now starting to hurt the organization overall in spite of the WTS leaders(GB) trying to put a band aid over those improbable long drawn out doctrines.
Other Apocalyptic based religious organizations eventually faded out of popularity and adherence, I think the JWS might heading in that direction as well.

 +2 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 4 days ago

@cookiemaster - winner winner chicken dinner. been on here a few months and at least to my knowledge you're the first to get the meaning...nicely done sir!
I think Fink is dead on here. The scrap heap is getting pretty big these days I just don't see how much more can fit on that sucker before man say enough is enough.
 +1 / -0
kairos
kairos 4 days ago

Imagine if the access to the information we individually discovered that allowed us to make the tough decision to leave was available 20 years ago?
Everyone uses or will use the internet for everything in the next few years.
Watchtower can no longer hide it's cult tactics from the masses.
Plain and simple.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 4 days ago

Yeah, all these people who were promised they'd never go to high school in this system and now they are thinking "hmmn, I'm 3rd generation and my kids are now grown up". It all takes a toll and when you hear the promised repeated you start to have that little voice in your head telling you that it just doesn't add up.
Next thing you know, you're one of "us" :grinning:
 +6 / -0
truth doubter
truth doubter 4 days ago

It's surely a steady exodus and it's gaining speed. 1975 and the early 1980's were pretty significant, but, now tons of
"new light" is becoming necessary because of the many false predictions and other wrong interpretations i.e. "generation". Also those who have been active for the last 30 to 50 years are noticing the changes. With the addition of the internet more and more are finding facts about WT that they were never told! In fact they were told not to seek outside information or chance being DF'd. More and more are coming to realize that since WT beginnings over 140 yrs ago, everyone was under the opinion that the world would end in their lifetime. They are waking up to the smoke and mirrors scam.
 +3 / -1

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Topic Summary
i'm completely new at this however just in my joining this forum and of course interacting with others i can't help but notice what appears to be a significant exodus from the organization.. for those of you that have long been in this game have you seen this before?
i'm really curious and we should refrain from the sensational, but is what we're seeing different than in years past?.
it sure seems like so so many are waking and leaving.



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by Wonderment 2 months ago
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by Wonderment 2 months ago



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The Modern Exodus: Perception or Reality?
by Hadriel 5 days ago 43 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparrowdown
sparrowdown 4 days ago

I 'm sure the WT in it's current state will cause more to wake up maybe not an all in one mass exit but more like a "hundredth monkey" situation.
That would get the attention of the powers that be and there would likely see all manner of policy and doctrinal acrobatics in a very short space of time.
 +2 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 4 days ago

The overlapping generations will be the eventual undoing however it take 50 years or more still. The current GB won't have to worry about answering for it which is sad but eventually with so much hinging on 1914 even if the overlapped contemporaries don't reach max age I think as that clock winds down you'll see many completely lose faith.
I don't think it is a coincidence that the teaching is such that the current GB will be long gone before it ever has a chance to see fruition. They'll never have to answer for a lick of it which is rather irritating to me.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago
Well, at least 8 have left and faded (on doctrinal grounds) that I know of personally!
 +1 / -0
fukitol
fukitol 4 days ago

Last service years annual report indicated growth may be heading towards negative, but is it a blip, an aberration? The organization has experienced similar blips before and pulled through.
This service years annual report should be very telling. Come back in 9 months and we'll have a much better idea of whether what you're surmising could be right or not.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago

@ sparrowdown...
Pretty sure that's what's happening right now.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago
At the very least, there does seem to be a lot more of us willing to consider the possibility that it can actually happen, these days.
 +1 / -0
pepperheart
pepperheart 3 days ago

All these branch offices are now closed
estonia
ireland
guatemala
el salvador
honduras
nicaragua
costa rica
panama
Also acording to what sam hurd of the gb said they have kicked out 1000's of people who used to work at bethel.
And since jan 2016 they have not been printing 50 million magazines a month worldwide (watchtower and awake) so if you say just 2 cents for each copy they are $1 million dollars better off,bear that in mind when you hear about convention and kingdom hass being sold off

 
millie210
millie210 3 days ago

Another factor that adds to the cumulative effect is the generalized apathy towards religion in a lot of countries.
We are seeing that inside the Org too among the younger ones. They arent even "in" in the same way that young people were "in" years ago.
Maybe someone here can explain what I mean by that better than I can?
 
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 days ago
Closing those branches is significant however if say Germany or the UK closes or becomes a complete shell that will be very telling.
 
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

The overlapping generations will be the eventual undoing however it take 50 years or more still. The current GB won't have to worry about answering for it which is sad but eventually with so much hinging on 1914 even if the overlapped contemporaries don't reach max age I think as that clock winds down you'll see many completely lose faith.
I think we have a tendency to be convinced by things that convince us ... and mistakenly assume they will be as convincing to everyone else.
Why did we leave? Really.
Was it really some doctrine? Or was it because we were treated badly, didn't think that smelt like "gods organization" and that thought allowed us to start questioning things. Did we discover the doctrinal gaps and flip-flops along the way to leaving, as a result of researching to put our mind at rest or looking for proof to convince others to leave?
Until and unless people have some trigger to doubt themselves and question their place in the organization, they don't really care about the doctrine.
It's religion - none of it makes any sense. The JW beliefs don't make any less sense or are any more incredible than the idea that a super being inseminated a virgin jewish woman so a hybrid creature could grow up to be executed and a book written about it (after some super-hero exploits along the way).
It's all complete and utter nuts. Adding a few extra other things that don't make sense doesn't suddenly make it topple over - it's not Jenga, all perfectly balanced until the generation teaching or any other is added. It's a pile of sticks on the floor and different faiths just have a slightly different pile in a different order.
The truth is, there is no spoon.
(yeah, I didn't have a proper ending and wanted something profound)
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
i'm completely new at this however just in my joining this forum and of course interacting with others i can't help but notice what appears to be a significant exodus from the organization.. for those of you that have long been in this game have you seen this before?
i'm really curious and we should refrain from the sensational, but is what we're seeing different than in years past?.
it sure seems like so so many are waking and leaving.



Related Topics
Crazyguy
The Exodus confirmed..
by Crazyguy 4 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 6 months ago
Coded Logic
How to be smarter
by Coded Logic 6 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment 2 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment 2 months ago



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The Modern Exodus: Perception or Reality?
by Hadriel 5 days ago 43 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

The WTS heads may be gathering up the cash before this indentured scam of exploitation
really falls over on itself .

Money seems to have taken a greater focused attention like never before with this organization in its entire history, I wonder why ?




 +1 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 days ago

@Simon yeah I agree with everything you said in general and you're right usually there's something that happens which affects them directly.
However more are leaving not because they were dealt with but because as you said it doesn't pass the directed by God test.
Things are starting to pile up is the point and you can't hide it anymore. Stuff is too accessible and it will only get worse. More and more child abuse stuff will mount. It will for sure affect several as it is already.
I still say the generations teach could be the reason for the biggest exodus. Why? That teaching has never been moved off of. why? Because too much has been made of it. You move from it and although some may buy it I'm betting most won't. It is just too integral.
Think about how many say "when 1914 fell for me that was it". Now imagine the society itself finally having to admit in 60 years or so that they had the generations deal wrong. It will be catastrophic. Most of us unfortunately won't be here to see it.
At least that's my .02
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 3 days ago

I think Simon's point is well made. The generation teaching is a big thing for me but for many they simply do not care. The GB play the game very well and change doctrine in a way that people can digest with very limited collateral damage.
The organisation is held together with the glue of cognitive dissonance and it takes something very strong to start to break that down. In my experience, for long standing Witnesses it's injustice and personal matters that generally allows any dissatisfaction with doctrine to turn into progressive and open minded questioning.
I would not underestimate the leeway the GB has to be able to change huge amounts of doctrine with very little real damage to the faith of the vast majority.
 
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

I guess the point I mean to make is that every time they change a doctrine, some people think it's "the beginning of the end" that will lead to their imminent demise.
But it never is !
Change is significant to us because we are looking hard for it to say "ah ha - see !". But they have always changed and the people who are in don't care - they are simply not there because it makes logical sense.
Unless they pull a church of god and declare themselves false I just don't see it ending. Even then, I doubt the majority would budge but would just eject the ones saying it.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

There must be a point where they are really not making any money, where they have downsized as much as possible, have sold off most of the saleable assets and income is badly down.
At that point the awake ones amongst those really behind the Org, the Legal and Financial guys, will have already jumped ship, and the ship will be rudderless.
When the present steady trickle of leavers becomes a stream, that point will be quick in coming.
 
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

There must be a point where they are really not making any money
Why must there?
They are a religion - it's hard to think of a more favourable "business" to be in.
Tax free, free labor, donations, excuses for avoiding most legislation.
Wanting an exodus doesn't guarantee one.
 +1 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 days ago

@Simon in all sincerity you'd have a way better handle on this than I. My sample size is well not exactly large ha ha.
...and ur right they'll just keep moving the goal posts and people will still buy it. I just think with 1914 eventually you just run out of scenarios. I can't see where they can go anywhere from the overlapping deal. I don't see where they can come up with another "this generation" scenario.
My guess is the next light will be complete abandonment. However they've abandoned things before around the turn of the century and people still stayed so maybe it's all just a dream.
 
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

I guess I've just seen so many announcements of their imminent demise for 16+ years (and I know it didn't start then) that I'm skeptical. There's always someone new who is quick to declare that they will destroy the WTS and if only we can get the message out then people will be convinced and leave. The walls will crumble, people will cheer, the clouds will part and rainbows will blaze overhead.
It never happens and I don't think it ever will.
They have always been a fringe religion of changing beliefs and evolving doctrines and while some people will leave over some of them, many forget that they change for a reason - either to retain or gain new converts. They appeal to a particular niche and as long as life isn't too bad for people they will grow up and stay in long enough to often saddle a new generation with the life. It's no different to any other religion - you are brought up to believe what your parents believe until you realize your parents were wrong.
Some people take all this to mean "OMG, Simon supports the WTS!" but of course it doesn't mean that at all. I am just being pragmatic and realistic and have heard it all before.
The crisis and the doctrines change but the song remains the same.
It's also worth remembering that they fill a niche and if they disappear, that niche wouldn't - someone else would fill it with some other variation to appeal to the customers who want to buy that type of religion. Would removing the WTS overnight be the best thing for most people? Possibly not - it would probably lead to some suicides and lots of vulnerable people. A slow decline into obsolescence is the best thing IMO but most importantly right now is the support so those who do want to leave can leave successfully.
 +1 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 3 days ago

It all depends on what a person means by "Mass Exodus".
If you mean within a period of just a couple of months that millions of JWs will walk away from the religion - than I'm with Simon on this and I don't think it's likely to happen.
But if by mass exodus you mean the churn becomes so high they start having negative growth - then I think they're already there. I believe they have been fudging the numbers for the past couple of years by moving the goal post of what they call a "publisher" and they won't be able to hide their reducing numbers for much longer.
I also think it's important that we make predictions (not proclamations). Because over time it allows us to look at what we first thought vs. what's actually going on and produce more accurate models. My own prediction for a "mass exodus" is that in fifteen years there will be half the number of publishers. And I think such a prediction is worthy of the title "mass exodus". But that's just me. It seems like very few others on this forum are willing to make specific predictions about where the WT will be in the next ten to twenty years.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 3 days ago
Ever since they said you could just report 15 minutes they have been hiding the numbers maybe even before. But as long as they can convince the born ins that this is Jehovah's organization by repeating it over and over again most will stay no matter what changes they make in doctrine.
 

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Topic Summary
i'm completely new at this however just in my joining this forum and of course interacting with others i can't help but notice what appears to be a significant exodus from the organization.. for those of you that have long been in this game have you seen this before?
i'm really curious and we should refrain from the sensational, but is what we're seeing different than in years past?.
it sure seems like so so many are waking and leaving.



Related Topics
Crazyguy
The Exodus confirmed..
by Crazyguy 4 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 6 months ago
Coded Logic
How to be smarter
by Coded Logic 6 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment 2 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment 2 months ago



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The Modern Exodus: Perception or Reality?
by Hadriel 5 days ago 43 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

I don't ever see a mass exodus coming out the JWS, its a cult that has been framed and structured to uphold itself continuously by varying elements. Such as people enforced to abandoned their family and the engaging social environment where JWS are self identified as being righteous wholesome people .
So when the GB have to change a doctrine because it has become nonviable or impractical, the change has come out of the perception that god has influenced that needed change.
Jehovah never leaves or abandons the JWS ...... never

New light is constantly accepted thankfully and graciously by devoted JWS by the GB (FDSL) or in reality the executive directors of the Watchtower Corporation.

 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

Konceptual99 says .....
The organization is held together with the glue of cognitive dissonance and it takes something very strong to start to break that down.
Good point

 
pepperheart
pepperheart 2 days ago
Why should it have to take the closure or almost closure of either the german or uk branch to make any difference when since jan 2016 they have not been printing 50 million magazines a month saving themselves at least $1 million dollars a month that they could give to the uk or germany to help keep them going So its march 2016 the third month and that means that they SHOULD have $3 million in the bank BUT all they seem to do is have cut after cut after cut ?????

 
talesin
talesin 2 days ago

I've seen the 'exodus' in my family I get occasional news. The generation after me, have almost all left the cult. I just found out that my 2nd nephew and wife are DF for a couple of years (1st nephew faded years ago). My cousins kids have all left. Another local family left en masse (8 members, including 2 or 3 elders).
It seems to me, that the JWS will focus on those places where there is less internet access. Like all Western corporations, they have been mining Africa for a long time. They are losing the battle in the West, not just because of the 'net, but the secularization of our cultures has made the JWS less appealing, even to those who are needy and ready to be victimized.
The number of groups on facebook, and Reddit! wow, it's amazing and 'encouraging' (to coin a JWism) to see. xx tal
PS. Hadriel, I couldn't figure if you were the Demon from Diablo, or the Biblical ref? I knew the demon right away, so figured it was that ... now, not so sure. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 

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Topic Summary
i'm completely new at this however just in my joining this forum and of course interacting with others i can't help but notice what appears to be a significant exodus from the organization.. for those of you that have long been in this game have you seen this before?
i'm really curious and we should refrain from the sensational, but is what we're seeing different than in years past?.
it sure seems like so so many are waking and leaving.



Related Topics
Crazyguy
The Exodus confirmed..
by Crazyguy 4 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 6 months ago
Coded Logic
How to be smarter
by Coded Logic 6 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment 2 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment 2 months ago



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Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

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God said be fruitful and multiply,fill the earth and govern it.
by atomant 5 days ago 48 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 5 days ago
l have a problem with this.lf adam and eve didnt sin the earth would eventually have been full to the brim with perfect human beings.Then what every man gets the chop or no more sex?Then on the other hand we have the jw's saying
1.resurrected ones will not be allowed to marry in the earthly New System.
2.married survivors of Armageddon will remain married
3.single survivors of Armageddon may or may not be allowed to marry.So it seems that people reborn into new system wont be able to procreate. And married survivors will stay married so l assume that means they can still hanky panky and have babys thats a bit unfair..The earth can only accommodate a maximum number of humans then what for the married couples. lm sorry but lm confused none of it makes any sense.

 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos 5 days ago
wt has stated, in so many, other words, that reversing the effects of the menopause is not part of the road to perfection in paradise. Perfect sex would be just for the fun of it, procreation will not have anything to do with it any more, naturally. Not fit to print, so they only gave it a hint.
 
cofty
cofty 5 days ago

Stop worrying about a work of fiction.
There are so many real things you could be learning about and fun things you could be doing.
 +6 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 5 days ago

@atomant you make the assumption there's such a thing as paradise Earth. However this does not exist in the bible. Only paradise of heaven is discussed.
Sadly many witnesses assume that "paradise earth" is spoken about all over the bible however it simply is not. mention it to them and they are stunned to find that this is the case.
So before we start considering that the Earth would be overfilled you have to first show me where in the bible this is even eluded to.
If there's a hope does it matter what it is? Earthly or Heavenly? Or is simply not dying or having life again more important?
 +2 / -1
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 5 days ago




It doesn't make sense because none of it is true.
ALL living things were meant to procreate, live a certain life span, deteriorate and die. It's the whole Lion King circle of life thing.
I never understood why when Adam and Eve supposedly sinned by eating an apple and Jehoho took away their perfect and never ending life for it (talk about over-reacting, Dad!), that he in turn decided to impose the same sentence on every living creature and thing that ever existed. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it.
There is not one single thing in the entire Universe that lasts forever, and there never has been. Not a star, not a planet, not a tree, not a creature, or human.
And personally, there is nothing scarier to me than an entire planet full to the brim with Jehovah's Witnesses who can't have sex. Let's see them dance and sing the Happy song, then.
 +7 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 5 days ago
Believing in the Adam and Eve story as literal truth logically follows that one also believes the entire human race is the product of ancient incestuous relationships.

 +3 / -1
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 5 days ago

Although the Catholic church views the fall of man in the Garden of Eden as a terrible mistake, the Orthodox church sees it as a necessary step in the ladder of progression. When Jesus was resurrected, he became a being of immense power and glory with a perfect body of both flesh and bone (no blood, which is the corruptable part of man). "For a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have."
All men, because of the redemptive power of the atonement, are likewise resurrected in the flesh, from the greatest to the least, but Paul tells us that that not all will be raised to the same glory, for as heavenly bodies differ from earthly bodies, and as the sun, moon and stars differ from one another in glory, "so also is the resurrection." (See I Cor. 15) When all are judged, all will resurrected according to that judgment.
But this is only possible because of the atonement.
If man had not transgressed in the Garden, he would have remained forever with no glory on the earth or throughout the eternities, forever miserable because he knew no good from evil. To understand happiness he had to know sadness; to know joy, he had to understand sorrow. It was all part of the plan of salvation, but the Lord wanted it to be man's decision. He forbade it, but in the next breath said, nevertheless, it's your decision.
John said, speaking of the elect, "For when we see him, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." And since Jesus was resurrected as a perfect being of flesh and bones, man also has that potential.
Adam and Eve were both terrestrial in nature. Their bodies were not perfect because they contained no glory and no power. They were limited only to this world and if they wanted to go somewhere they had to walk. Knowing neither good nor evil, they lacked the ability to progress and grow. And though it never says, it's also unlikely that they could have reproduced. So they were set up to fall, and it had to be their decision.
They were put into their environ with a tree, the fruit of which could make their bodies corruptible. Also there was a fallen archangel to tempt them. They also were given time to themselves. In other words, all the elements were there for it to happen. All Adam and Eve had to do was pull the trigger. But the Lord's intentions were to make them like He, Himself, and this is why the fall had to happen.




 +1 / -1
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 5 days ago

Wild_Thing» There is not one single thing in the entire Universe that lasts forever, and there never has been. Not a star, not a planet, not a tree, not a creature, or human.
Nothing that we can detect. Actually, most of the universe is composed of stuff we can't detect.
Matter lasts forever, and though it can change, it can't be annihilated.
And personally, there is nothing scarier to me than an entire planet full to the brim with Jehovah's Witnesses who can't have sex. Let's see them dance and sing the Happy song, then.
Well, the verdict isn't in regarding whether the WTS is the sole purveyor and arbiter of truth in the earth. Based on its history, it was created by men, established by men without any intervention of God. But I tend to agree with the sentiment, though it never specifically says there will be no sex. We only see through a dark, murky glass the things that will be, but they are said to be far beyond the understanding of man.

 +1 / -2
cofty
cofty 5 days ago

When Jesus was resurrected, he became a being of immense power and glory with a perfect body of both flesh and bone (no blood) - Coldsteel
So if he has no blood he won't need a heart or lungs or a liver. Also no blood means no cellular respiration so no eating either. That means he never needs to defecate, so does the resurrected Jesus have an anus?
No blood also means the resurrected Jesus is impotent.
Do you see how ridiculous it gets when theists make assertions about reality?
 +7 / -0
cofty
cofty 5 days ago

Adam and Eve were both terrestrial in nature
There was no Adam and Eve. Homo sapiens evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years.
Matter lasts forever, and though it can change, it can't be annihilated.
Bollocks
You can have your own fairy stories about magic pants but you can't have your own facts.

 +4 / -0

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God said be fruitful and multiply,fill the earth and govern it.
by atomant 5 days ago 48 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 4 days ago
Sometimes I wonder if god telling Adam and Eve to "go forth and multiply" was a generous translation. Maybe he was tired of dealing with them and what he really said was "fuck off."
 +8 / -0
AnneB
AnneB 4 days ago

Atomant: Why do you even worry about it? Have they been there? Can they (the WT/JW's) show any evidence that it's true? Are there any "scriptures" that directly state these teachings?
Let it go. If it's false you'll find out when the time is right; if it's true there's nothing you can do about it.
Go out and garden or something.
AB

 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 days ago


OneEyedJoean hour ago
Sometimes I wonder if god telling Adam and Eve to "go forth and multiply" was a generous translation. Maybe he was tired of dealing with them and what he really said was "fuck off."



Haha! Best comment it ever! If I could double like it, I would!
 +2 / -0
truth doubter
truth doubter 4 days ago
Latest "new guess" is that Jesus could have been referring to the anointed. In fact "they will be like the angels".
 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 days ago

Cold Steel: Matter lasts forever, and though it can change, it can't be annihilated.
I think you are thinking of energy, which again goes back to the whole circle of life thing.



From http://www.physicscentral.com/experiment/askaphysicist/physics-answer.cfm?uid=20120221015143
"The first law of thermodynamics doesn't actually specify that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead that the total amount of energy in a closed system cannot be created nor destroyed (though it can be changed from one form to another). It was after nuclear physics told us that mass and energy are essentially equivalent - this is what Einstein meant when he wrote E= mc^2 - that we realized the 1st law of thermodynamics also applied to mass. Mass became another form of energy that had to be included in a thorough thermodynamic treatment of a system."




Cold Steel: Well, the verdict isn't in regarding whether the WTS is the sole purveyor and arbiter of truth in the earth.
Ummm ...yeah, actually the verdict IS in. I can unequivocally guarantee you that the WTS is NOT "the sole purveyor and arbiter of truth in the earth."
Cold Steel: We only see through a dark, murky glass the things that will be, but they are said to be far beyond the understanding of man.
Not really. Science has come a long way. While there are still things yet to be discovered, I think things are pretty clear. It's the bible and religion that murk things up.


 
atomant
atomant 4 days ago
Just to clear things up here lm not a dub and never have been and most likely never will be.lm not 100% sold on any idea or belief.l keep an open mind.ln starting this thread lm just trying to expose how ridiculous the jw way of thinking really is.

 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

I think you are thinking of energy, which again goes back to the whole circle of life thing. - Wild Thing
Actually Coldsteel is an apologist for Mormon cult bullshit. They teach that matter always existed because the convicted fraudster Joseph Smith said so.
It's a bit like Russell used to teach that god lived in the Pleiades.
 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 days ago

cofty, thanks for that info. It makes perfect sense now! I could tell he was an apologist. I just assumed it was a JW apologist.
 
kepler
kepler 4 days ago

Fundamental particles have a way of hanging around. Protons for example. Neutrinos cycle back and forth...
But the universe is by no means static. If we were to hang around in it eternally on a paradise Earth, we would sure have to watch a deterioration in the neighborhood. Plus commit ourselves to a lot of dull reading and meetings.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 4 days ago

Well, we'll have to see whether people came from apes. Evolution is simply another religion. If one begins with the assumption of a divine creator, evolution becomes much more difficult to prove. It seems that when one finds a skeleton of, say, Lucy, and says, "Hey, she looks kinda human...she must be one of our ancestors!" that there's a good deal of assumption in that. I saw a pro-evolution documentary not long ago that showed an early human and a long line of his forebears going all the way to the horizon. The camera followed that line, person by person at super speed millions of years ago until it stopped on a bipedal apelike creature completely unlike the human male figure we'd just been looking at. Then we see someone in a small ape suit eating nuts or something in a tree.
Interesting theory...if there's no God, I thought. But if there is, the only thing it proves only that there's a common designer. I've also done some reading and cannot find the solid evidence I'm told is out there. Perhaps it's too complicated for the common man to understand; however, religion isn't based solely on ancient traditions, but also by witnesses. Numerous people have had near death experiences, and they're remarkably consistent regardless of cultural and religious backgrounds. Critics say they're simply delusions brought about by the body's being deprived of oxygen -- or the effects of medicine. But such spur-of-the-moment judgments don't take into account the transfer of actual information, which frequently happens. As someone who's had medical hallucinations, they're very fuzzy and indistinct. There's no 3D, and conversations in dream states are not extended or memorable. Yet there are many rational people who have such experiences and report them with the same detail one might recant a story about a trip to Paris in the Spring!
So far such people are dismissed without consideration, as are the prophets who gave their lives to seal their testimonies. Instead of God being portrayed in many different ways by many different prophets over centuries, God's word to them have been remarkably consistent. Since atheists and evolutionists react essentially like religionists when there are flaws in their beliefs (such as the classic "leap of faith"), I also don't feel the need to have to prove them completely. Christians wouldn't need Christ if there was no Adam or Eve, for if there wasn't a fall, there need not be an atonement.
In my view, it's no contest. There are holes in every belief system, even atheism. The way I see it, there's also a body of evidence that supports many belief systems. I'm willing to wait and see what happens. If you have a different view, fine. It's a free country.
 +1 / -2

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Topic Summary
l have a problem with this.lf adam and eve didnt sin the earth would eventually have been full to the brim with perfect human beings.then what every man gets the chop or no more sex?then on the other hand we have the jw's sayingresurrected ones will not be allowed to marry in the earthly new system.. married survivors of armageddon will remain married.
single survivors of armageddon may or may not be allowed to marry.so it seems that people reborn into new system wont be able to procreate.
and married survivors will stay married so l assume that means they can still hanky panky and have babys thats a bit unfair..the earth can only accommodate a maximum number of humans then what for the married couples.



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God said be fruitful and multiply,fill the earth and govern it.
by atomant 5 days ago 48 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 4 days ago
Man evolving from apes is pure fiction imo.lts been well documented its a hoax.But for the believers your fully entitled to your opinions but the mere thought of evolving from an ape ???Where did the ape come from?and so forth.World renowned scientists are slowly waking up and drawing conclusions that there may very well be a creator of sorts.

 +2 / -2
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 4 days ago
Yeah, it's hard for me to grasp as well. They find one skeleton, like Lucy, then, before they even break camp, all conclude she was an even earlier ancestor to man than the one before. The way science ties things together sometimes amazes me. I wonder if that's where the phrase, "Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle" came from? 🙈🙊🙉
 +1 / -3
Landy
Landy 4 days ago

If one begins with the assumption of a divine creator, evolution becomes much more difficult to prove.
I can't believe someone intelligent enough to turn a computer on and make his fingers work on a keyboard could actually type that sentence.
 +4 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Man evolving from apes is pure fiction imo.lts been well documented its a hoax
Please share this document. Hundreds of thousands of scientists are wasting their time.
A Nobel Prize is on offer if you are right atomant.
Yeah, it's hard for me to grasp as well. - Coldsteel
Try reading a book.
The questions you have proposed about evolution are the sort of thing people say who have not read a single book about science in their entire life. Evolution is a fact. It is as certain as the fact that the earth is not flat.
Humans evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years. There was no Adam and Eve. The only people who doubt that are a minority of christians, cults and most Muslims. The thing they all have in common is wilful ignorance.
 +1 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 days ago
Here are ten questions for Coldsteel, atomant and other evolution deniers...
 
atomant
atomant 4 days ago
Here are a couple of sites that debunk evolution cofty if your interested.
Debunking Evolution - problems between the theory …
www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution Debunked - Vedic Scienceswww.vedicsciences.net/articles/darwin-debunked.html
 +1 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

No I'm not interested at all. We all have google.
I am very well acquainted with all the creationist bullshit. I would not argue for evolution unless I knew both sides of the issue really well. That would be intellectually dishonest.
So automat which books that present the scientific evidence for evolution have you read?
Am I right in assuming the answer is that you have read none?
Is there anything in your links that you found particularly compelling or did you just lazily post a link without even looking at it?
 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

automat - Are you really promoting Eastern Vedic science woo woo?
Or did you post a link without even reading the first thing on the page?
I never insult people on the basis of their beliefs but this sort of stupidity makes it difficult.
 +0 / -1
atomant
atomant 3 days ago
hello cofty yes l have researched the evolution theory very extensively with an open mind.l imagine that at some stage you were a staunch ,unwavering follower of the jw beliefs.Then at some stage you came to a conclusion that your belief was wrong.lts happened once might it happen again?

 +1 / -0
Fisherman
Fisherman 3 days ago


.... yes l have researched the evolution theory
Referring to evolution as a theory is a very broad statement but if you mean that humans did not evolve from non-humans that seems to be what the Bible is saying when it says that: male and female He created them forming them from clay and Adam's rib (whatever that means.) - and also when it says referring to animals "according to its kind" I have concluded with certainty that Jehovah is the creator but it is very difficult to know with certainty what the Bible means sometimes, for example, the Bible states that God created the heavens and the earth in 7 days (whatever that means.) How long is a day? Science appears to have invalidated old beliefs that the earth is only thousands of years old and that God created the universe in 7 x 7000 years( including his rest) Science has not invalidated the Bible, however.
If it can be shown that humans existed 20,000 years ago for example, it would challenge the validity of the belief that Adam was created about 4026 years ago.
What trumps everything is God's Holy Spirit which is solid proof of God's existence, a Creator; hence everything else that seems to contradict what the Bible says about creation is moot.

 

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l have a problem with this.lf adam and eve didnt sin the earth would eventually have been full to the brim with perfect human beings.then what every man gets the chop or no more sex?then on the other hand we have the jw's sayingresurrected ones will not be allowed to marry in the earthly new system.. married survivors of armageddon will remain married.
single survivors of armageddon may or may not be allowed to marry.so it seems that people reborn into new system wont be able to procreate.
and married survivors will stay married so l assume that means they can still hanky panky and have babys thats a bit unfair..the earth can only accommodate a maximum number of humans then what for the married couples.



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by deegee 17 days ago



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God said be fruitful and multiply,fill the earth and govern it.
by atomant 5 days ago 48 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 3 days ago

yes l have researched the evolution theory very extensively - automat
Really?
Then why did you say...
"Man evolving from apes is pure fiction imo"
and why did you ask...
"Where did the ape come from?"

That is like somebody claiming to have researched the JW religion very extensively and then asking why JWs don't accept any medical treatment. We would all know they were lying.
Reading creationist websites is not researching the evolution theory very extensively. It is confirmation bias. What I asked you was "which books that present the scientific evidence for evolution have you read? Am I right in assuming the answer is that you have read none?"









 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

What trumps everything is God's Holy Spirit which is solid proof of God's existence, a Creator; hence everything else that seems to contradict what the Bible says about creation is moot. - Fishy
There is no such thing as the "holy spirit".
Using one imaginary thing to prove another imaginary thing is the definition of irrational.
What you mean is that you will not allow any amount of evidence to change your chosen superstitions.
 +0 / -1
Fisherman
Fisherman 3 days ago

When a person is a eyewitness of an event, he knows what happened with certainty. Who can show such a person that he does not know what he knows. Science doesn't deal in absolutes like proof. Science can never be sure that they've considered all the axioms, and could be only one discovery away from undermining what they think they know : Science doesn't know what they don't know. Science deals in evidence, probability and confidence - not proof.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

So mountains of evidence that all confirms the fact of evolution counts for nothing but your gut feeling that god made a man out of dust and a woman out of his rib trumps everything.
Do us a favour and never agree to be part of a jury.
 +0 / -1
Fisherman
Fisherman 3 days ago


mountains of evidence that all confirms the fact
That is a false statement if you like to prove than humans evolved from non humans. NO mountain of evidence exists and saying that they exist does not make it so and neither is posting conclusions about interpretations from "evidence" purporting "evolution".

( as I have explained above, in Science)There is no such thing as "verifiable proof" -EXCEPT for verifiable proof of Jehovah.

Do us a favour and never agree to be part of a jury.
Depends on the jury. IN the US, when the subject matter is Criminal Court, a juror must be satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt. IN the US, when it is a civil case, the burden of proof is preponderance of evidence.
A person cannot serve as a juror when he is a witness, however. And an advocate cannot be arbitrator as you purport to be and juror all at the same time.

 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

NO mountain of evidence exists - Fishy
Here are 4 million papers to get you started...
Or you could begin with these...
 +0 / -1
Fisherman
Fisherman 3 days ago

Let me just consider a passage from your first reference for your sake not mine because I told you that I KNOW WHAT I KNOW WITH CERTAINTY. That makes me a witness. You are an advocate and you wish to persuade others.


"The author then shows how these and related principles operate in primates and how they apparently operated in our hominid ancestors."
The passage assumes that we have hominoid ancestors. That has not been proven. The author does not prove that we have hominoid ancestors. The passage contrasts the difference between a fact (operate in primates) and a conclusion (APPARENTLY OPERATED) assuming that humanoids were our parents.
When it becomes something that I can measure in a lab or proof of the same substance as Jehovah's Holy Spirit, I will look but until then it is only science fiction.

 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 3 days ago
Fisherman, what is it about God's Holy Spirit that proves, beyond doubt that he exists?
 
atomant
atomant 3 days ago
howdy cofty Was l right in my assumption that you were a staunch ,unwavering follower of the jw beliefs.Yes or no will suffice.

 
Fisherman
Fisherman 3 days ago


Fisherman, what is it about God's Holy Spirit that proves, beyond doubt that he exists?
It appears to me that each individual has his own methodology for ascertaining facts. I am more skeptical than most, convinced only with striking proof -something that can be measured. I believe in subjective evidence too and I form conclusions from such evidence but they are only beliefs based on my interpretation of the evidence.
Jehovah's Holy Spirit is conclusive proof from God, you measure it yourself, same as the evidence you read about in the Bible but you do not have to read about it or have someone prove it to you like you are asking me. You will know. Here is an example. Look inside the left pocket of your pants. You know what it is inside your pocket. You know for certain.

 

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Topic Summary
l have a problem with this.lf adam and eve didnt sin the earth would eventually have been full to the brim with perfect human beings.then what every man gets the chop or no more sex?then on the other hand we have the jw's sayingresurrected ones will not be allowed to marry in the earthly new system.. married survivors of armageddon will remain married.
single survivors of armageddon may or may not be allowed to marry.so it seems that people reborn into new system wont be able to procreate.
and married survivors will stay married so l assume that means they can still hanky panky and have babys thats a bit unfair..the earth can only accommodate a maximum number of humans then what for the married couples.



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new boy
My Bethel Experience Part 12
by new boy 2 months ago
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What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
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John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
deegee
Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?
by deegee 17 days ago



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God said be fruitful and multiply,fill the earth and govern it.
by atomant 5 days ago 48 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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Listener
Listener 3 days ago
The reason I ask is because I was wondering what you see occuring today as being evidence of God's Ho!y Spirit, how do you see it as operating?
 
Fisherman
Fisherman 3 days ago


The reason I ask is because I was wondering what you see occuring today as being evidence of God's Ho!y Spirit, how do you see it as operating?
I have answered your question the best I could. The above question is another question.

 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 days ago

Cofty » The questions you have proposed about evolution are the sort of thing people say who have not read a single book about science in their entire life. Evolution is a fact. It is as certain as the fact that the earth is not flat. Humans evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years. There was no Adam and Eve. The only people who doubt that are a minority of Christians, cults and most Muslims. The thing they all have in common is wilful ignorance.
About science? You mean all books on science revolve around evolution? Even books on astrophysics?
Christianity, as you said, is incompatible with evolution, so Christians would have to sacrifice the key element of their religion, which is Christ, and all the prophecies and prophets pointing to him and that's just not going to happen. The prophecies are too persistent and consistent; too accurate to write off.
 
prologos
prologos 2 days ago

Cold Steel: "-- sacrifice the key element of their religion, which is Christ,--" That key element is just a consequence of the talking snake story, the fall. Without that bit of detail, that real key element, there would be no need for a "Christ", a ransom. All creation is really as good as it is. deal with it.
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Christianity, as you said, is incompatible with evolution - Coldsteel
I never said that.
I said that the majority of christians accept the fact of evolution.
Only fundies, cults and muslims reject it.
You have never read a single book that presents the scientific evidence for evolution have you?
The prophecies are too persistent and consistent; too accurate to write off.
What you are saying is that you have decided a priori that you will reject all the evidence for evolution without even considering it. That is called prejudice.
 
sir82
sir82 2 days ago


It seems that when one finds a skeleton of, say, Lucy, and says, "Hey, she looks kinda human...she must be one of our ancestors!"
That's what you think the scientific method is?
Well alrighty then.
Too bad the Awake magazine is well on the path to disappearing, you'd have made an excellent editor.

 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a day ago

Religion and science will one day be reconciled, I think, because there's a great deal about both that hasn't been revealed yet. I watched one LDS professor try to reconcile the two, but at this stage it can't be done. As long as Christians buy into the talking snake thing and the making of man from mudpies and ribs, and as long as scientists are not able to see intelligent design in the universe, the two are like an old, bickering couple. In my own scriptures, we only have the unsatisfying promise: "Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven."
The new testament scriptures state that the things of the spirit are discerned by the Spirit, and they are esteemed by men to be wisdom, but are to God foolishness. If there is a super intelligence we call God, we can't depend on the words of the ancients to understand Him. It requires numerous dispensations to a number of cultures and an open mind. Because of my own experiences, I don't have an open mind regarding the existence of God. Regarding evolution, yeah, if someone could reconcile it and religion, I'd be open to it. But as long as it's an either/or thing, I'm doing the leap of faith. Because as much as evolution seems to you a certainty, it doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of God. How Christians can reconcile it and still hold on to their core of faith is something I have to research, as well as evolution itself.
 
cofty
cofty a day ago

Because as much as evolution seems to you a certainty, it doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of God
It is a certainty. Millions of christians accept that and still believe.
Any religion that asks you to commit intellectual suicide is a cult.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut a day ago
I started to comment on the OP, but it's like trying to discuss how Santa Claus can get down the chimney in homes without a fireplace.
 

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l have a problem with this.lf adam and eve didnt sin the earth would eventually have been full to the brim with perfect human beings.then what every man gets the chop or no more sex?then on the other hand we have the jw's sayingresurrected ones will not be allowed to marry in the earthly new system.. married survivors of armageddon will remain married.
single survivors of armageddon may or may not be allowed to marry.so it seems that people reborn into new system wont be able to procreate.
and married survivors will stay married so l assume that means they can still hanky panky and have babys thats a bit unfair..the earth can only accommodate a maximum number of humans then what for the married couples.



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Evolution is a Fact #31 - Ten Questions for Creationists
by cofty 4 days ago 27 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 4 days ago

I thought this would be a good time to pose some questions based on the series so far.
If creationism is true these should be easy. Answers that don't involve copy-paste would be really interesting to read.
..


1. Since some proteins can be assembled in more ways than there are atoms in the universe why do the sequences of amino acids and bases vary between species in exactly the way evolution predicts? 1, 2
..
2. Why do humans and other primates have virus DNA, and other bits of non-coding text, in exactly same place in their genomes? 3, 8, 10
..
3. Why do humans and other species have broken genetic code for features that they no longer possess? 4, 5, 7, 9, 29
..
4. Why does human chromosome 2 consist of two primate chromosomes joined end-to-end? 6
..
5. How do you explain the amazing fossils that demonstrate major transitions? 11, 16, 18, 24
..
6. Why do the same fossils always appear in the same layers of rock in a way that is totally predictable? 23
..
7. Who were the hominids that walked upright more than 3 million years ago? 20, 21
..
8. Why do humans have vestigial features? 19, 22, 30
..
9. Why does the distribution of species align exactly with evolution? 14, 15
..
10. How does creationism explain bad design like the recurrent laryngeal nerve? 13
..
And a bonus question for "young-earth" creationists...
How do you explain geological features like the unconformity at Siccar Point? 25
..
Explanations of natural selection and examples of how it works can be found at the following posts 12, 17, 26, 27, 28
..

Index for numbers 1 - 30
 +3 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 4 days ago
Er..... God done it?
 +5 / -0
Satan
Satan 4 days ago
I always get the typical answer of "because jehovah made it that way" so much bullshit
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 4 days ago

Awe, no one told me there was going to be a test?!?!
erm "God works in mysterious ways" to all questions. It was "what would a theist say" right?
 +6 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 4 days ago

I always get the typical answer of "because jehovah made it that way" so much bullshit
Easy rrebuttal: the bible says god cannot lie - wouldn't creating fossils, genetic evidence, vestigial features, and all the other evidence that fits EXACTLY as evolution predicts be considered lying if evolution did not in fact take place?
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago


cofty - "How does creationism explain bad design like the recurrent laryngeal nerve?"
Questions like these are my favorites; they were a huge part of helping me wake up.
x
Bottom line... there is way too much f**ked-up shit in nature, on way too many levels, for it to be the product of creationism or "intelligent design".
 +1 / -1
Heaven
Heaven 4 days ago




 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 days ago
So no answers from creationists yet?
 
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 4 days ago

Give it some time Cofty....Perhaps they are deep in thought or they have gone to relieve themselves.
Or maybe they are asleep and someone needs to wake them up!
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago

I think they're not answering because - let's face it - cofty's evolution threads have been so overwhelming, even I feel like I've been beaten over the head with them, and I accepted evolution, like, a decade ago.
 +1 / -0

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Evolution is a Fact #31 - Ten Questions for Creationists
by cofty 4 days ago 27 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Sorry!
No not really :wink:
 +1 / -0
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 4 days ago
Because God done it... and... Satan put all them fossils to confuse us and weaken our faith!
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 3 days ago


So no answers from creationists yet?
The JW response would be "It is quite apparent that you are neither humble nor sincere, so we are not going to take the time to respond to your questions."
It is a conditioned response, no thought required.

 +3 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Creationists demand proof of evolution. This is dishonest, the word proof belongs to mathematicians. In every other aspect of life we make judgements based on evidence. In a court of law juries are asked to judge on whether the case has been settled beyond all reasonable doubt.
This series so far has offered just a tiny sample of the evidence for evolution.
In 31 threads I have had an abundance of personal insults but not one single rebuttal of the evidence.
The foundational doctrine of the Watchtower cannot be reconciled with reality.
We are just getting started.
 +5 / -0
tornapart
tornapart 3 days ago

Ok Cofty, I'm going to bite the bullet. LOL
I'm not going to answer your questions one by one because I'm not clever enough but the evidence is clearly there for evolution. I still believe though in an ultimate creator at the start of it all. Basically I believe he set the ball rolling and then let nature take its course. I'm not expecting anyone else to concur, that's just my own personal take on it.
 +2 / -0
The Scotsman
The Scotsman 3 days ago

I always find it funny when someone says "evolution is a fact".... Which evolution are you referring to?
There are so many different types, versions, opinions and conlusions...
Its a bit like saying "religion" is the truth.... Which one...?
 +1 / -2
sir82
sir82 3 days ago


There are so many different types, versions, opinions and conlusions...
There are? I'm curious, what are they?

 +2 / -0
Caedes
Caedes 3 days ago

4. Why does human chromosome 2 consist of two primate chromosomes joined end-to-end? 6
Perhaps as a secondary question, given that we have two fused primate chromosomes why do we have two less chromosomes than other primates?
 +1 / -0
Caedes
Caedes 3 days ago

I always find it funny when someone says "evolution is a fact".... Which evolution are you referring to?
I always find it funny when people ask stupid questions that clearly show they haven't even read let alone understood the OP.
 +2 / -1
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 3 days ago

Since some proteins can be assembled in more ways than there are atoms in the universe why do the sequences of amino acids and bases vary between species in exactly the way evolution predicts?
Because scientists are dishonestly trying to make the model fit the evidence.
Why do humans and other primates have virus DNA, and other bits of non-coding text, in exactly same place in their genomes?
Because God has full licensing rights to His intellectual property and likes to recycle where he can.
Why do humans and other species have broken genetic code for features that they no longer possess?
Because this DNA serves some unknown purpose and we just have to have faith and one scientist at one time didn't understand the purpose of one line of genetics that was later found out to be meaningful so now we're perfectly justified in believing that all junk DNA is meaningful . . . and also imperfection and fallen world and stuff.
Why does human chromosome 2 consist of two primate chromosomes joined end-to-end?
Sometimes painters use two different colors. And sometimes painters mix colors to produce an entirely new color.
How do you explain the amazing fossils that demonstrate major transitions?
Piltdown Man was a hoax so therefore all transitional fossils are hoaxes.
Why do the same fossils always appear in the same layers of rock in a way that is totally predictable?
Because during the flood larger animals could run to higher ground faster so they're in the top strata and slower animals are in deeper strata.
Who were the hominids that walked upright more than 3 million years ago?
Scientists just make up dates and stuff and the hominids are really only six thousand years old.
Why do humans have vestigial features?
We just don't understand their purpose yet and God will fix us back to our former glory so we can use them and stuff.
Why does the distribution of species align exactly with evolution?
Because God intelligently designed his creations . . . ?
How does creationism explain bad design like the recurrent laryngeal nerve?
Who are we to question God?
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
i thought this would be a good time to pose some questions based on the series so far.. if creationism is true these should be easy.
answers that don't involve copy-paste would be really interesting to read.. ... .
1. since some proteins can be assembled in more ways than there are atoms in the universe why do the sequences of amino acids and bases vary between species in exactly the way evolution predicts?



Related Topics
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #29 - Use it or Lose it
by cofty 6 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty 5 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #27 - Monkeys, Typewriters, Shakespeare, 747s etc.
by cofty 19 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #6 - Human Chromosome 2
by cofty 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #15 - Robinson Crusoe
by cofty 2 months ago



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Evolution is a Fact #31 - Ten Questions for Creationists
by cofty 4 days ago 27 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 2 days ago

The Scotsman - Would I be right in guessing you haven't read a single word of the "Evolution is a Fact" series?
I have defined exactly what the fact is that I am defending numerous times in the past 31 threads.
Here it is again just for you...
Every living thing evolved from a common ancestor over millions of years.
This is the fact about evolution about which there is no sensible dispute.
So do you have any answers to the ten questions above?
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

I still believe though in an ultimate creator at the start of it all. Basically I believe he set the ball rolling and then let nature take its course. - tornapart
Thanks for that. What you have described is perhaps the only way to reconcile science and religion. It is usually referred to as "theistic evolution" and is the position of eminent scientists such as Ken Miller and Francis Collins.
We have to be careful to commit 100% to methodological naturalism. In other words there is not a single detail in all of life's long history that cannot be explained without resorting to the supernatural. No arguments about complexity are permitted.
As soon as you claim that something is too complex to occur without an intelligent designer you have stopped doing science and joined Ken Ham & co.
I have serious questions about that as a theological position but at least it respects the science.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Coded Logic - Good example of Poe's Law.
 +2 / -0
hooberus
hooberus a day ago

cofty, if someone responded to all 31 of your threads and was able to demonstrate that your points do not show that evolution is a fact what would you do?
 
sir82
sir82 a day ago


cofty, if someone responded to all 31 of your threads and was able to demonstrate that your points do not show that evolution is a fact what would you do?
I can't speak for Cofty, but what I would do is see to it that the person was immediately nominated for a Nobel prize. Upending a core scientific principle with compelling evidence would be astoundingly fantastic.

 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 21 hours ago

Hello hoob.
I see from your posting history that this topic is your speciality. You have approaching 100 threads of copy-paste lifted straight from the websites of evolution-deniers. Most of it is the same sort of "ID" pseudoscience that Perry posts. Walls of text that he doesn't even begin to understand.
Let's be honest there are millions of pages on the internet that we can all find in a few seconds that purports to refute evolution. Some of it is terrible and some of it looks impressive to anybody who doesn't know better. It all adds up to "complexity therefore Jesus/Allah/Joe Smith/Jehovah". Anybody who falls for copy-paste merchants deserves to live in ignorance.
If any of it could survive peer review it would be awesome. Imagine if it could be shown that an intelligent creator must exist. That would be fucking amazing.
By the way it's 31 so far. If you search "human evolution" in google scholar you get 4 million papers. Evolution does not rest on my 31 brief tidbits.
 +3 / -0
prologos
prologos 20 hours ago

I am going to second tornapart on his contribution, and will go further by saying that
The evolutionary process that followed abiogenesis, that was allowed by the creation event, would require more genius to set up then the hands- on workshop tinkering that the bible portrays, and cofty seems to be fond of indirectly attacking. It takes better work to build an autonomous system then a remote control device, and creation as far as we know, is totally on autopilot. a deist's take.
Cofty's challenge proves evolution works, but it does not prove that evolution is not work.
 
Island Man
Island Man 15 hours ago

"In answer to all your questions: We do not have all the answers at this time. Perhaps Jehovah will fill us in on the details in the New System. We just need to wait on Jehovah and put faith in what bible says and not be swayed by the satanic propaganda being spouted by worldly scientists."
LOL.

 

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Topic Summary
i thought this would be a good time to pose some questions based on the series so far.. if creationism is true these should be easy.
answers that don't involve copy-paste would be really interesting to read.. ... .
1. since some proteins can be assembled in more ways than there are atoms in the universe why do the sequences of amino acids and bases vary between species in exactly the way evolution predicts?



Related Topics
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #29 - Use it or Lose it
by cofty 6 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty 5 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #27 - Monkeys, Typewriters, Shakespeare, 747s etc.
by cofty 19 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #6 - Human Chromosome 2
by cofty 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #15 - Robinson Crusoe
by cofty 2 months ago



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1
Mary Magdalene
by Graditude in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 5 days ago
has anyone read the book "the expected one" by kathleen mcgowan

Vidiot
5 days ago
Listener
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Something that may have been overlooked by the Australian Royal Commission
by Listener in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 5 days ago
i was reading a post made by a female jw on another forum that was answering a question regarding under age baptism and underage girls speaking to elders regarding sexual matters.

her answer was sickening and it got me wondering whether the rc has overlooked a very serious problem.this is a link to her commentshttp://en.allexperts.com/q/jehovah-s-witness-1617/2015/8/baptism-1919.htmdid the rc ask for a list of victims or underage persons who had been subjected to a judicial committee?given that there is a practice of baptising children and young teenagers, i don't doubt that a number of them would have been subjected to their own jc in regards to sexual issues.

we have even heard of cases where young females have been raped but have been found guilty of fornication after a jc.the only files given to the rc was those of perpetrators.the watchtower would have kept records of underage persons who have been subject to a jc in relation to sexual matters.

Sabin
stuckinarut2
Vidiot
4 days ago
cofty
4
Evolution is a Fact - Index for Numbers 1 - 30
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 days ago
#1 protein functional redundancycomparing the sequences of amino acids in ubiquitous proteins confirms the relationship between all living things.. #2 dna functional redundancycomparison of the dna that codes for the amino acids of ubiquitous proteins predicts the tree of life with an astonishing degree of accuracy.. #3 ervsendogenous retroviruses that infected our ancestors are found in the same place of the genome of our closest primate cousins.. #4 smelly geneshundreds of broken genes that used to code for olfactory receptors in our ancestors are still found in our genome.. #5 vitamin cwhy humans can no longer make their own vitamin c and what that tells us about our species' history.. #6 human chromosome 2our second biggest chromosome is made up of two of our ancestors' chromosomes stuck end-to-end.. #7 human egg yolk genehumans and our primate cousins have the genes for making vitellogenin and they are all broken in the same way.. #8 jumping genesbits of parasitic code called alu elements prove our common ancestry with primates.. #9 less chewing more thinkinga broken gene for a type of muscle fibre we no longer have tells a story about our evolutionary past.. #10 non-coding dnain common with many other species huge amounts of our genome originated as copying errors.. #11 tiktaalikan amazing fossil discovery illustrates the transition of life from sea to land.. #12 lenski's e.coli experimentan experiment with e.coli, now in it's third decade, demonstrates the power of natural selection.. #13 morris minor bonnetsevolution has to make do with building on existing designs as illustrated by the recurrent laryngeal nerve.. #14 joey goes to ozfossil evidence for the origins of marsupials found in antarctica exactly as predicted.. #15 robinson crusoethe biogeography of oceanic islands presents an impossible dilemma for creationism.. #16 aquatic mammalsan excellent sequence of fossils illustrates the evolutionary journey of whales from land to sea.. #17 belyaev's silver foxesa 50 year breeding programme demonstrates the amazing power of selection and the interconnected nature of genes.. #18 fish fingersthe evolution of limbs is mapped out in an amazing sequence of ancient fish fossils.. #19 goosebumpsa vestigial reflex bequeathed by our hairier ancestors.. #20 lucy in the sky...an exceptional fossil of a 3 million year old hominid.. #21 footprints in the sand...footprints at laetoli show our australopithecus afarensis ancestors were bipedal 3.6 million years ago.. #22 the hillocks of hiss...a vestigial feature if the human ear shared by 10% of the population demonstrates our evolutionary history.. #23 faunal succession...the consistent sequence of fossils found in the rocks can only be explained by evolution.. #24 the origin of your inner ear...how the bones that reptiles eat with became the bones that we hear with.. #25 deep time...scottish geologist andrew hutton discovered the proof of earth's great antiquity.. #26 colour vision...how gene duplication - new "information" -and mutation equipped us with trichromatic vision.. #27 monkeys, typewriters, shakespeare, 747s etc...evolution is a combination of random mutations and non-random selection.. #28 something darwin didn't say...a long term study of pigeons demonstrates how natural selection acts on a local population.. #29 use it or lose it...fossil genes reveal the history of modern species.. #30 your third eyelid...the remnants of a nictitating membrane reveals our evolutionary history..

cofty
Simon
scary21
4 days ago
cofty
6
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 days ago
fish, reptiles, birds and some mammals have an additional eyelid that is called a nictitating membrane.

it is more or less transparent and unlike our eyelids it moves sideways across the eye.

as well as protecting the eye it also helps with cleaning and lubrication.. a falcon diving at 200mph has good reason to want to want a pair of goggles to protect its eyes from insects and debris.

LoveUniHateExams
Island Man
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4 days ago
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1-2016 Circuit Overseer Mid week talk "Believe Inspired truth not inspired error" Crazy stuff
by Watchtower-Free in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
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stuckinarut2
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5 days ago
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Debela--Here are those videos you wanted!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 days ago
videos requested:.. you became so beloved to us.. http://we.tl/xytu3oqfvi.

.. congregation presentation instruction videos/memorial etc.. .. 1. http://we.tl/cn2wnqayzh.

.. 2. http://we.tl/lidpxszhjb.

Tenacious
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2 days ago
Joe Grundy
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"Ones"
by Joe Grundy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 days ago
(i never was a dub).. this is something which has intrigued me for a while.

i don't know whether it's dub-speak, or us-speak.. it's the use of the word 'ones' as in 'interested ones', 'worldly ones', 'disfellowshipped ones' and so on and so on.. in the 'normal world' we would probably use the word 'people'.. thoughts?.

OutsiderLookingIn
Alive!
Xanthippe
5 days ago
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Jehovah`s Witnesses an Old Testament Religion
by smiddy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 days ago
jehovah`s witnesses claim to be a christian religion , however looking at their history , publications ,such as the watchtower and awake mags., their conventions ,international ,regional ,local ,etc.their books pamphlets ,brochures ,etc.etc.

you are hard pressed to find references to the new testament and references to jesus and his ministry .. they seem to be more focused on the old testament , and the god of the old testament.jehovah.

even in their dramas at conventions , international and local events they are pre-occupied with old testament accounts and experiences , and not christian experiences , examples or ,lives to emulate .. they claim to be a christian religion and very seldom do they highlight the name of jesus , or his teachings , they are fixed on the old testament name of jehovah , and what he did in the old testament.

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5 days ago
atomant
35
lf the paradise earth is real would you want to live there?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 days ago
l know l would.anyone that says no is kidding themselves.just imagine going up to the hole of a cobra and patting it on the head like a pet.or running like a deer through the woods.who knows we might grows wings and be able to fly as well.food for thought.

Sabin
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3 days ago
elbib
Instantly reinstated!
by elbib in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 days ago
when fr.

tom for next day’s special dinner with pope and asked fr.

now, please sit for confession.” and pope had his confession with this instantly-reinstated priest fr.


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kaik
Memorial preaching and invitation
by kaik in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
today, i had a chat with my sister, about kids, mom, my problems, her problems.

as i expected, she brought up the memorial.

she asked me, if i will go, and of my answer was no.

kepler
11
On the Fundamentalist Notion of Babylon Destroyed - Forgot to Tell Ancient World
by kepler in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
among puzzlements of sitting down with jw reps with "what the bible really teaches", was the assertion that babylon was destroyed - forever - just like it says in these here chapters and verses.

then the nwt claims that peter i & ii were written from babylon.

but beside that, ancient greek, hebrew and roman writings are full of reference to babylon as an important center.

StephaneLaliberte
Crazyguy
kepler
3 days ago
HowTheBibleWasCreated
10
JW Videos
by HowTheBibleWasCreated in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
my belief is that the jw organization is moving towards video teaching.

at the last convention a mini jesus movie was created.

today watching the jw video on 'older ones' is the famous widow in the temple scene with the same actor for jesus.. are they slowly and carefully making a jesus movie?.

DesirousOfChange
Vidiot
ToesUp
4 days ago
cofty
27
Evolution is a Fact #31 - Ten Questions for Creationists
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
i thought this would be a good time to pose some questions based on the series so far.. if creationism is true these should be easy.

answers that don't involve copy-paste would be really interesting to read.. ... .

1. since some proteins can be assembled in more ways than there are atoms in the universe why do the sequences of amino acids and bases vary between species in exactly the way evolution predicts?

cofty
prologos
Island Man
15 hours ago
truth doubter
16
Preaching the "good news"
by truth doubter in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
just wondering.

what do those who left wt, and still believe the bible, feel about matt.24:14?

truth doubter
Ucantnome
Ucantnome
4 days ago
Hadriel
43
The Modern Exodus: Perception or Reality?
by Hadriel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 days ago
i'm completely new at this however just in my joining this forum and of course interacting with others i can't help but notice what appears to be a significant exodus from the organization.. for those of you that have long been in this game have you seen this before?

i'm really curious and we should refrain from the sensational, but is what we're seeing different than in years past?.

it sure seems like so so many are waking and leaving.

Finkelstein
pepperheart
talesin
2 days ago
atomant
48
God said be fruitful and multiply,fill the earth and govern it.
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 days ago
l have a problem with this.lf adam and eve didnt sin the earth would eventually have been full to the brim with perfect human beings.then what every man gets the chop or no more sex?then on the other hand we have the jw's sayingresurrected ones will not be allowed to marry in the earthly new system.. married survivors of armageddon will remain married.

single survivors of armageddon may or may not be allowed to marry.so it seems that people reborn into new system wont be able to procreate.

and married survivors will stay married so l assume that means they can still hanky panky and have babys thats a bit unfair..the earth can only accommodate a maximum number of humans then what for the married couples.

Cold Steel
cofty
OnTheWayOut
a day ago
Messhy
29
Is Reading/Writing about Mythologies bad?
by Messhy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 days ago
as the topic title says, is reading/writing about mythologies bad?

i read alot of mythologies and enjoy it.

should i stop?.

Vidiot
Kick50r
Spectre
3 days ago
JW GoneBad
18
California Electrician Dies After Falling 53 Stories...Possible JW and Suicide?
by JW GoneBad in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 5 days ago http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-construction-worker-falls-from-l-a-high-rise-hits-cars-dies-20160317-story.html.

social media is saying that this individual was a jehovah's witness.

can someone from the southern california area confirm this.

Finkelstein
fulano
Finkelstein
3 days ago
Graditude
1
Mary Magdalene
by Graditude in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 5 days ago
has anyone read the book "the expected one" by kathleen mcgowan

Vidiot
5 days ago
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stephanie61092
17
"Don't make mountains out of molehills"
by stephanie61092 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 3 days ago
during the talk today, the speaker said, in reference to apostates, "don't make mountains out of molehills" and "all those who are do good to look up isaiah 43:18.

" to save you trouble, it says: "do not remember the former things, and do not dwell on the past.".

i'd like to see him read that scripture to the victims of the hundreds and hundreds of abuse cases the arc has unveiled from over the past 50 years.

StarTrekAngel
stuckinarut2
sparrowdown
2 days ago
Theburstbubble
3
JW Child Abuse News- UK
by Theburstbubble in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 3 days ago
not sure if this has been posted before as it was in january, but none the less i'm glad news is getting out there.

the religion they try so hard to protect by covering up these horrible abuses is now the same religion which getting into the news for all the wrong reasons.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/484952/uk-jehovahs-witnesses-sex-abuse-cover-up.

MicaSmith
Theburstbubble
LevelThePlayingField
2 days ago
Saltheart Foamfollower
18
Circuit visit elders meeting
by Saltheart Foamfollower in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
first some context to this post.

historically the elders meeting with the circuit overseer has had the following format : outline for meeting including ministerial servants then, after they have been dismissed, discussion of local issues.

the last visit there was an additional outline for the elders only, the notorious "gender blurring" discussion.. you might wonder what is being discussed this time round, so here you are:.

sir82
dropoffyourkeylee
Saltheart Foamfollower
2 days ago
notjustyet
3
Rework of the JW Childrens project to coerce them into giving more.
by notjustyet in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
i tool the jw image and edited it so that it would look like it was made by the catholics to .

entice their children to give their money to the catholic church.. if you have any jws that have not seen the original yet, give this to them and let them paint themselves into a corner slamming the catholics for stooping so low and then let them in on the fact that it originated with the jws.. .

[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s549/scummydross/502016201_e_cnt_1_zpsy5xwrs3f.jpg[/img].

stephanie61092
Satan
Pete Zahut
3 days ago
truth doubter
15
The Kingdom Message
by truth doubter in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
regarding the unique preaching of the kingdom by wt (new creation, heavenly kings, priests and judges, restoration of paradise on earth etc.).

the scriptures seem to back up wts interpretation.

so, although there are a million reasons to become inactive, how can our conscience allow us not to become active in the work described at matt.

Ucantnome
Alive!
Half banana
4 days ago
no-zombie
6
The AGMs
by no-zombie in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
i don't know about most of you, but i really look forward to the agms.

i probably get more excited about them coming around each year than anyone at my hall.

its sort of like christmas.

Vidiot
DesirousOfChange
Vidiot
4 days ago
MicaSmith
18
Child Abuse
by MicaSmith in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 4 days ago
hello, i am new to forum.

i want to thank you for allowing me to post my concerns.. you are a lively, intelligent, empathetic community.

i have read many of your posts and comments.. i have two concerns that i would like to discuss here.

MicaSmith
smiddy
zeb
3 days ago
cofty
22
Don't Accept the Blame for Being Shunned
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
our family and friends blame us for the fact that they shun us.

imagine an abusive husband who threatened his wife that if she leaves him he will hunt her down and kill her.

eventually she finds the courage to leave and he carries out his threat.

freemindfade
Anders Andersen
Vidiot
3 days ago
atomant
21
Why dont you go to the memorial?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
l guess we all have our own reasons and thought it would give insight to others considering going to reconsider and not go.

Half banana
Heaven
adjusted knowledge
3 days ago
kaik
Memorial preaching and invitation
by kaik in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
today, i had a chat with my sister, about kids, mom, my problems, her problems.

as i expected, she brought up the memorial.

she asked me, if i will go, and of my answer was no.


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atomant
26
Am l the only one.?The older l become the more hostile l become towards god.
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
they say you mellow out with age.maybe so but not in my case.l feel its an insult and degrading to us humans to have to live the way we do if there is a god.deep down l guess l do believe theres a god but lm having great difficulty trying to understand why things are the way they are.l dont need a bible bashing from anyone l just feel frustrated and helpless.l just battle on like everyone else but l get the feeling theres a whole lot more to our existence.

someDUDEinAsmallCubicalSomewhereOverTheRAINBOX
jookbeard
Doubtfully Yours
2 days ago
jwdoctrine
13
How Should Anointed Christians View Themselves?
by jwdoctrine in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
in this coming sunday's study article :”we want to go with you” and paragraph 5 we read :.

“those who partake of the emblems at the memorial should carefully consider the warning found at1 corinthians 11:27-29.

(read.

Room 215
Slidin Fast
Crazyguy
2 days ago
Bolthof
13
Is everything that doesnt add ud explained as a vision, a parable or a "poem" ?
by Bolthof in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
hi.. i meet up with a couple of jw once a week and it seems to me that every time i show them a verse that says something that contradicts their doctrine they say that it is a parable, a vision.. or a poem of some sort.

what are your toughts about this ?.

Alive!
steve2
Bolthof
2 days ago
Atlantis
9
2016-3-20-BOE!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
2016-3-20-boe.

.. to applicants for the school for kingdom evangelizers.. http://we.tl/byfdshrdfc.

.. .. atlantis!.

jwleaks
Syme
StarTrekAngel
2 days ago
Luther bertrand
Does anyone have any experience with IAT's?
by Luther bertrand in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
i would like to create an iat for those who have been around jw's.

if you know what an iat is and how to build one and would like to be apart of this project/ pm me.

outsmartthesystem
9
Why is this year's memorial being held on March 23 (which is the 13th of Adar II on the Jewish Calendar)?
by outsmartthesystem in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
i thought it had to be done on nisan 14????.

nisan 14 isn't until april 22nd.

does this have anything to do with an intercalary month being added to the jewish calendar this year or something?

Dagney
Phizzy
Hadriel
a day ago
dugout
44
Blood Transfusion and Eating
by dugout in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
i get highly irritated when this subject comes up.

this idiot gave a talk in my hall recently and said that transfusion of blood and eating blood was the same thing.

my wife accepts this reasoning.

cookiemaster
TD
stuckinarut2
a day ago
stuckinarut2
1
Interesting video. Use of donated funds....
by stuckinarut2 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 3 days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efcgec2zfzg.

worth watching...stick with it to the end..

Listener
3 days ago
MicaSmith
22
Hidden Abuse Under Watchtower
by MicaSmith in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 3 days ago
the center for investigative journalism whose website is now called revealnews.org, has an entire section on stories being investigated by their staff and others on how the watchtower is handling child abuse cases.. "the jehovah’s witnesses have systematically instructed leaders to keep child sexual abuse secret from law enforcement and members of their own congregations.

" https://www.revealnews.org/topic/jehovahs-witnesses/.

please share you thoughts on this issue because i really would like to know when the governing body and their lawyers are going to properly address this issue because i can't worship in a place that allows dangerous men in, that's what they accused the catholic church of doing and now here it is that they are caught doing the same thing but have not expressed any concern for the victims.

pepperheart
MicaSmith
Heaven
14 hours ago
stephanie61092
17
"Don't make mountains out of molehills"
by stephanie61092 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 3 days ago
during the talk today, the speaker said, in reference to apostates, "don't make mountains out of molehills" and "all those who are do good to look up isaiah 43:18.

" to save you trouble, it says: "do not remember the former things, and do not dwell on the past.".

i'd like to see him read that scripture to the victims of the hundreds and hundreds of abuse cases the arc has unveiled from over the past 50 years.

StarTrekAngel
stuckinarut2
sparrowdown
2 days ago
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 805,637 posts in  29,814 topics

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Investigations into the WatchTower organisations United Nations (UN) involvement etc...
 114,028 posts in  5,637 topics

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Child Molestation & Abuse Issues and other coverups
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nakanozzi
6
JWs tamping on Japanese edition of Wikipedea
by nakanozzi in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
according to jwstudy.com,some jw changed the date of jerusalem's fallfrom 597 to 607.and erased all the original writings and re-written the page of the wikipedia so that wikipedia matches the watchtower’s doctrine.chech this out.. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%e3%83%90%e3%83%93%e3%83%ad%e3%83%b3%e6%8d%95%e5%9b%9a.

nakanozzi
Simon
DATA-DOG
19 hours ago
TMS
23
My Personal Invitation to the Celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal
by TMS in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
by no means is this a heartwarming "experience" illustrating how an ex-jw skillfully "reached the heart" of a current jw, moving them to re-examine their belief system.

that won't be my take on my half hour visit with an elder's wife last sunday.

no one scored points here as is almost always the case in these interactions.. we live at the extreme southern tip of texas, on the u.s.-mexico border in a city of about 200,000. twenty years ago there were 20 spanish language congregations, 2 english.

steve2
Diogenesister
Diogenesister
13 hours ago
Atlantis
12
2016-3-18-BOE-Discontinuing Feature Length DVD and Audio CD Production!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
2016-3-18-boe.. re: discontinuing feature-length dvd and audio cd production.

.. http://we.tl/cpevenkiz2.

.. .. petra!.

BluesBrother
PaintedToeNail
LevelThePlayingField
10 hours ago
Leela1
2
New ways of Witnessing a bit creepy I think
by Leela1 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
so i started a new job and take the train everyday into the downtown core to my office.i have noticed everyday right when you leave the station there is a display case with watchtower pamphlets and magazines for the public to take.

at first i didnt see the witnesses standing close by monitoring the display case but one day as i looked over a few feet away i saw a man and a woman dressed in their best field service attire chatting away.

i found this a bit odd as when i was a witness we always went door to door.

OUTLAW
Village Idiot
a day ago
nakanozzi
29
Watchtower is cashing in on China
by nakanozzi in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
japanese brother in china recently revealed thatmany wealthy chinese are interested in watchtower’s teaching and donating money.ex-cos and ex-district os are now preaching undercover in china,and, numberes of special pioneers in china are growing !

DATA-DOG
Stirred
talesin
17 hours ago
learnaway
6
The Original Sin - Emperor’s New Suit
by learnaway in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
introduction: most religions based on the bible, have been teaching paul’s propagated doctrine for thousands of years which claims that human beings are born with the original sin, inherited from adam, thereby redemption is required.

it is not enough to be described with a few lines of explanation that paul’s doctrine is false, because this examination goes against the faith of the redemption doctrine, which cultivated by tertullian, augustine, calvin; and gave a source of power and enormous wealth for the church for many millennia.

however, hopefully readers could grasp the undeniable truth regarding original sin and redemption..

learnaway
The Rebel
SonoftheTrinity
15 hours ago
freemindfade
5
Jehovah's Witness Literature Warning Label
by freemindfade in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
i just had a thought.

the government should do what they did with the tobacco industry and prescription drug industry and force the watchtower corporation (also mormons and scientologists, etc) to print warnings on its misleading literature and pamphlets.

they can have all their paradise panda petting, fruit eating, khaki pleated pants wearing bullshit propaganda on the front.

pepperheart
WTWizard
punkofnice
18 hours ago
Backinthebox
7
Splane "Bible writer's not logical"
by Backinthebox in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
bethelite asked splane since mt 25 is set in the great trib because half way through mt 24 events turn to the great trib, does that not mean the generation starts when the great tribulation starts and has nothing to do with 1914. splane replied the bible writers were not logical they would pick a topic then randomly go back to another topic.

AnneB
Crazyguy
Backinthebox
a day ago
JACOB Meza
4
N.H. Barbour As the "Evil Slave" Quote From "Blood on the Altar"
by JACOB Meza in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
i think the book blood on the altar, may have a misquote (or maybe it is just me reading it wrong).. p. 41, para.

"pastor russell took the place of mr. barbour who became unfaithful and upon whom was fulfilled the prophecies of matt.

the book give the reference of the zion's watchtower july 15th, 1879, p. 8 (http://jv.somet.dk/tekster/wt_1879_07_01.pdf).

Finkelstein
Atlantis
CubanGringo
a day ago
atomant
26
Am l the only one.?The older l become the more hostile l become towards god.
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
they say you mellow out with age.maybe so but not in my case.l feel its an insult and degrading to us humans to have to live the way we do if there is a god.deep down l guess l do believe theres a god but lm having great difficulty trying to understand why things are the way they are.l dont need a bible bashing from anyone l just feel frustrated and helpless.l just battle on like everyone else but l get the feeling theres a whole lot more to our existence.

someDUDEinAsmallCubicalSomewhereOverTheRAINBOX
jookbeard
Doubtfully Yours
2 days ago
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thedepressedsoul
22
They want to get rid of "anointed ones" - It's getting clear
by thedepressedsoul in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 13 hours ago
i've never met a group that turns on it's members like the jw's.

sister faithful that thinks she's anointed is now bat shit crazy with mental illness.

we all have known it's true, but now you have the wt, who put it in everyone's head that you can be anointed.

Finkelstein
OnTheWayOut
truthlover
5 hours ago
thedepressedsoul
59
Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 hours ago
wow this is interesting!

i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.

they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.

steve2
Mandrake
JHK
41 minutes ago
cookiemaster
9
My mother has nervous breakdown because we missed the memorial.
by cookiemaster in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 hours ago
my parents insisted that i'd take them to the memorial.

my cousin said he'd come too and another brother who doesn't have a car begged to join.

i was dreading having to go through exactly the same thing again.

Joliette
cookiemaster
Diogenesister
12 hours ago
Half banana
8
The JW org is a failed doomsday cult?
by Half banana in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 16 hours ago
by its own mandate in the founding of the watchtower magazine in 1879, it was set up to proclaim the arrival of jc in the heavens according to the then currently failed adventist claim for jesus' return the year 1874.. russell's catalyst for all that came afterwards was his pet claim (in so many words) "aha but jc did in fact come... but came invisibly!

" he added without sound evidence that it took four years for jc to come to rule from the heavens after his arrival there and that then was said to be in 1878. .

within forty biblical years from the arrival date, russell promised, with hopes even higher than his bank account, that god’s kingdom with christ at the helm would rule the earth in the absence of all worldly opposition.

DesirousOfChange
smiddy
OUTLAW
an hour ago
steve2
37
2016 Memorial Done & Dusted
by steve2 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
well on this side of the planet, the southern hemisphere/ new zealand, the 2016 memorial service in local kingdom halls will be over for another year.

another great big anticlimax.

some family and relatives will have gone - but unless i ask my sister, i generally have no idea about attendance and partaker numbers.

All for show
Khaleesi
prologos
2 hours ago
elbib
3
Evolution of theology
by elbib in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
when jerusalem was captured and its temple was burned by pagan king in 586 bce (or 607?

), it was a theological crisis for the jews.

then a concept of messiah (king-priest) who will restore everything was evolved.

Half banana
elbib
Finkelstein
17 hours ago
Doug Mason
3
Who Selected the Canon? Does “The Watchtower” Tell Us the Whole Story?
by Doug Mason in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
at pages 27 to 29 of its article, does the bible tell us the whole story about jesus?, “the watchtower” of april 1, 2010 discusses the subject: “who selected the canon?”.

the watch tower claims that professor oskar skarsaune and professor kenneth berding provide support for its contention that the list of christian greek scriptures was a product of some first-century christians who were endowed with “superhuman abilities”, and that the canon was not established in the second century..

does “the watchtower” tell the whole story on who selected the canon?.

Crazyguy
Atlantis
Bugbear
a day ago
Atlantis
9
Board assistance for Debela!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
friends, debela wrote to me several times requesting a video she says that i posted here:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5719452662366208/2-videos-if-you-want-them .

her description at the bottom of the page sounds like a watchtower edition and not a video.

neat blue dog
Atlantis
neat blue dog
12 hours ago
HowTheBibleWasCreated
11
Well I spilled it to the elders (elder)
by HowTheBibleWasCreated in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
an elder came over for a visit the other night (he couldn't get a partner) personally i consider him a friend and have revieiled many things to him an figured the tie has come to step out of this religion slowly.. well i finally told him i have no believe in the bible (other then the confirmed history in it) or god.

i did it slowly and tactfully and even non-agressive.. his response to learning i believe in evolution was that evolution doesn't happen now i respectfully disagreed and pointed out lactose and alcohol tolerance among the last thousand years as well as tibetian lung/hearts.

he refused to believe it.

Anders Andersen
smiddy
Anders Andersen
13 hours ago
nakanozzi
6
JWs tamping on Japanese edition of Wikipedea
by nakanozzi in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
according to jwstudy.com,some jw changed the date of jerusalem's fallfrom 597 to 607.and erased all the original writings and re-written the page of the wikipedia so that wikipedia matches the watchtower’s doctrine.chech this out.. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%e3%83%90%e3%83%93%e3%83%ad%e3%83%b3%e6%8d%95%e5%9b%9a.

nakanozzi
Simon
DATA-DOG
19 hours ago
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Bible Research & Study Articles
Critical analysis of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society publications and the bible
 321,251 posts in  16,526 topics

Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
 805,637 posts in  29,814 topics

Scandals & Coverups
Investigations into the WatchTower organisations United Nations (UN) involvement etc...
 114,028 posts in  5,637 topics

Child Abuse Issues
Child Molestation & Abuse Issues and other coverups
 70,109 posts in  4,039 topics

Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
Discuss Blood and other Medical Treatment including Mental Health within the WatchTower society
 37,649 posts in  2,429 topics




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Replies
atomant
How many fence sitters are really out there?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 hours ago
l think the real figure would be a real nail in the coffin for jw believers.lf the elders knew what l knew they would have a field day.many many jdubs live a double life.lovey dovey at the hall and totally different people at home and work.my guess is many dubs are schizophrenic and in need of help.with all the brain washing lm not surprised.what have others observed.

?

Simon
8
Stupid memorial obsessions
by Simon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 hours ago
all the different congregations around the world hold it at similar local times but they all effectively are at different times relative to each other ... so why does the time matter?.

why the almost superstitious "oh, it must be after sundown".

cause it's not sundown everywhere that second.. god knew the earth was round ... right?.

2+2=5
DATA-DOG
Wild_Thing
2 minutes ago
James Mixon
18
If God is all powerful why did it take six days
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 9 hours ago
if god is omnipotent (all powerful) why did he take six days (or six thousand years jw.org) to.

crete everything.

why not speak everything into existence all at once?

LisaRose
Simon
prologos
2 hours ago
atomant
18
So who attended the memorial and why?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
this should be interesting.

JWdaughter
hillfy333
Tornintwo
an hour ago
MicaSmith
8
A Troubling Culture: JW Group Think vs. Individual Critical Thinking
by MicaSmith in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 hours ago
i had no idea that the resistance, governance, and duplicity i am experiencing as a jehovah witness is actually part of a bigger behavioral issue that permeates the entire jehovah witness culture.. i was troubled by the fact that many persons who have been crushed by the unfair practices of jw leadership described themselves as former members of the jw cult, and, or, apostates.

the latter bothered me to a greater degree because i felt the word apostate has been overused by jw's leadership and members.

anyone who disagrees with anything the governing body does or says is assigned the label an apostate.

stuckinarut2
talesin
MicaSmith
an hour ago
thedepressedsoul
22
They want to get rid of "anointed ones" - It's getting clear
by thedepressedsoul in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 13 hours ago
i've never met a group that turns on it's members like the jw's.

sister faithful that thinks she's anointed is now bat shit crazy with mental illness.

we all have known it's true, but now you have the wt, who put it in everyone's head that you can be anointed.

Finkelstein
OnTheWayOut
truthlover
5 hours ago
thedepressedsoul
59
Pshycos! - 2016 "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" Regional Convention Program
by thedepressedsoul in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 hours ago
wow this is interesting!

i think how much emphasis this puts on "loyalty" shows their is an issue.

they're trying to plug the wholes as much and quickly as possible.

steve2
Mandrake
JHK
41 minutes ago
cookiemaster
9
My mother has nervous breakdown because we missed the memorial.
by cookiemaster in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 hours ago
my parents insisted that i'd take them to the memorial.

my cousin said he'd come too and another brother who doesn't have a car begged to join.

i was dreading having to go through exactly the same thing again.

Joliette
cookiemaster
Diogenesister
12 hours ago
Half banana
8
The JW org is a failed doomsday cult?
by Half banana in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 16 hours ago
by its own mandate in the founding of the watchtower magazine in 1879, it was set up to proclaim the arrival of jc in the heavens according to the then currently failed adventist claim for jesus' return the year 1874.. russell's catalyst for all that came afterwards was his pet claim (in so many words) "aha but jc did in fact come... but came invisibly!

" he added without sound evidence that it took four years for jc to come to rule from the heavens after his arrival there and that then was said to be in 1878. .

within forty biblical years from the arrival date, russell promised, with hopes even higher than his bank account, that god’s kingdom with christ at the helm would rule the earth in the absence of all worldly opposition.

DesirousOfChange
smiddy
OUTLAW
an hour ago
steve2
37
2016 Memorial Done & Dusted
by steve2 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
well on this side of the planet, the southern hemisphere/ new zealand, the 2016 memorial service in local kingdom halls will be over for another year.

another great big anticlimax.

some family and relatives will have gone - but unless i ask my sister, i generally have no idea about attendance and partaker numbers.

All for show
Khaleesi
prologos
2 hours ago
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Subjects to Explore
Bible Research & Study Articles
Critical analysis of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society publications and the bible
 321,251 posts in  16,526 topics

Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
 805,637 posts in  29,814 topics

Scandals & Coverups
Investigations into the WatchTower organisations United Nations (UN) involvement etc...
 114,028 posts in  5,637 topics

Child Abuse Issues
Child Molestation & Abuse Issues and other coverups
 70,109 posts in  4,039 topics

Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
Discuss Blood and other Medical Treatment including Mental Health within the WatchTower society
 37,649 posts in  2,429 topics




Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/subject/watchtower?nav=first