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"Religious Fundamentalists Have a Coherent Worldview"
by leavingwt 6 years ago 22 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

Fundamentalists vs. Liberal Christians
While commenting on a recent post at Proud Atheists, I found myself again reflecting on how I have more respect for fundamentalist Christians than the so called liberal Christians. Of course, I realize that "respect" isn't the best word here because religious fundamentalists are hardly worthy of respect. I recognize that the fundamentalist forms of any religion are far more dangerous than the liberal to moderate forms. Still, there is something a bit more admirable about someone who tells us what he or she believes and then acts in accordance with it versus someone who does not.
How can I possible have more respect for the fundamentalist Christian than the liberal Christian, especially when my worldview is so much more similar to that of the liberal Christian? Like the liberal Christian, I reject a literal reading of Genesis in favor of evolution. Like the liberal Christian, I think that religion is most tolerable when it is directed toward helping others as opposed to converting, enslaving, or destroying them. Like the liberal Christian, I find some of the teachings attributed to Jesus to be morally acceptable and much of the Old Testament to be horrific in its immorality.
 While watching The Atheism Tapes recently, I was overjoyed to see this very question come up in one of the interviews. Nobel Prize-wining American physicist Steven Weinberg tackled this one, and I finally heard an explanation for what I have felt but not adequately understood. Even if the rest of the interviews weren't as excellent as they were, this part would have made the whole collection worthwhile.
 What Weinberg said, and I am paraphrasing greatly here, is that religious fundamentalists have a coherent worldview while religious liberals do not. What makes the fundamentalists more appealing to some of us is that they possess a theory of the world that we can examine, comprehend, and even test. Weinberg said that this appeals to him as a scientist, and I think he's absolutely right.
 Religious liberals, as compared with fundamentalists, have no coherent theory or worldview. They are all over the place in picking various bits they like while ignoring the parts they don't care for. This results in an incoherent mosaic of ideas slapped together without any sort of unifying principles. Much like the "New Age" perspectives many Christians love to criticize, liberal religion offers no theory to understand or evaluate.
 There is plenty I despise about fundamentalist Christians. I'd much rather associate with liberal Christians in my day-to-day life, and I'd much rather have them in positions of political power. However, I now have a better sense of what I do find more appealing about the fundamentalists and why.
http://www.atheistrev.com/2010/02/fundamentalists-vs-liberal-christians.html
 
hamilcarr
hamilcarr 6 years ago

This article posits a statement without defining what this coherent worldview is.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

This article posits a statement without defining what this coherent worldview is.

Very true.

Thankfully, some of our members, here, have been more than happy to give us the details.



 
hamilcarr
hamilcarr 6 years ago


Thankfully, some of our members, here, have been more than happy to give us the details.
Which has led most other members to the conclusion that it is "an incoherent mosaic of ideas slapped together without any unifying principles"...
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

Which has led most other members to the conclusion that it is "an incoherent mosaic of ideas slapped together without any unifying principles"...

Interesting persepective.

My own observation has been a pretty clear cut explanation of God and his plan from the Fundamentalists. Sure, they have minor differences here and there, but all of the big stuff is the same: all other religions leading to Hell, immortality of the soul, eternal torment, etc.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 6 years ago

Weinberg said that this appeals to him as a scientist, and I think he's absolutely right. 

the scientific mind and the fundamentalist mind have more in common than not imo so the statement above is very understandable to me
 
hamilcarr
hamilcarr 6 years ago

If it's indeed true that all fundamentalists share as unifying principles that all others go to Hell, I don't see how this fits in with the "scientific" mind. Science is by principle anti-dogmatic.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

hamilcarr -- Just so we're clear, it's all incoherent, from my perspective.
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 6 years ago

I've gone down this thought path too, but it falls apart well before you can write six "coherent" paragraphs, imo.
As hamicarr points out, there is nothing all that coherent about the fundamentalist worldview and fundamentalist, while being quite willing to die or kill for their beliefs, aren't really very good about living their beliefs.
 
JeffT
JeffT 6 years ago

I'd like to know what a "coherent worldview" means as well. Nazi's had a coherent worldview - it would all be coherent when they conquered it. JW's worldview is coherent as well - it just doesn't make any sense.
Incidentally I tried googling "coherent worldview" to get a definition. This thread came up 4th on the list. Does that mean I could lnk it as proof that fundamentalists have a coherent worldview?
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 6 years ago

> they possess a theory of the world that we can examine, comprehend, and even test.

Where did the universe come from? God did it.
Where did life come from? God did it.
Why does it rain? God did it.
Why does the earth have a moon? God did it.
How does gravity work? God did it.
How do atoms work? God did it.
How to computers work? God did it.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

See folks, Elsewhere gets it.

"coherent worldview" = extremely predictable
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 6 years ago

lol, yeah, when you put it that way. But a liberal christian is just as coherent; you just have to add the words "...a long time ago" to all of the things answered with "God did it....".

Where did life come from? God did it. A long time ago.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 6 years ago

well I too have a lot of admiration for people who can commit to something wholeheartedly by keeping a unifying vision of everything in front of them. But I think that it is just as admirable to be able to commit to something wholeheartedly and not have a unifying vision.
We all strive for coherence and this can be achieved even when lots of other people's unifying visions overlap. Regarding Weinberg, I also sense frustration with liberal christians - they are not an easy proposition if he is looking to lead them to atheism.
 
Witness 007
Witness 007 6 years ago

Except when they blow up abortion clinics full of people.
 
Witness 007
Witness 007 6 years ago

And try to heal epileptics by exorcisms.
 
poppers
poppers 6 years ago


Where did life come from? God did it. A long time ago.
6000 years isn't all that long ago.
 
ziddina
ziddina 6 years ago

LeavingWT posted: "What Weinberg said, and I am paraphrasing greatly here, is that religious fundamentalists have a coherent worldview while religious liberals do not. What makes the fundamentalists more appealing to some of us is that they possess a theory of the world that we can examine, comprehend, and even test. Weinberg said that this appeals to him as a scientist, and I think he's absolutely right...."
It appears that the aspect of this "Coherent World View" that appeals to Weinberg, is the idea that it [coherent world view] can, in effect, be put under a microscope and tested...
Of course, the absolute certainty of fundamentalist Christians' "Coherent World View" - sounds too much like the mentality of the "Neptunists" in the 1700's - during the infancy of the science of vulcanology - volcanology... The Neptunists had a "coherent world view" that "explained" all - ALL - geologic features on the known areas of the planet as resulting from the "Great Flood" of "Noah's" day... The downfall of their "coherent world view" was the stubborn, obvious existence of volcanoes...
Think what the world would be like today if that "coherent world view" had persisted... Death rates from volcanic disasters would be much, much higher... Yellowstone's extreme hazard would be unknown, or poorly percieved, at best... Epochs of geologic time would be lumped together as if they all occurred at once - the piles of fossilized bones of Allosaurus, Tyrannosaurus Rex, various 'raptor' dinosaurs, Brachiosaurus, Stegosaurus, Proceratops and Triceratops - would all be viewed as having happened "all at once" during the "Great Flood", instead of resulting from the various extinction-level events that caused the 'separations' of the major and minor geological periods - Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, and so on...
And again, with an accompanying, potentially deadly 'blindness' to the actual causes of said extinctions - that "coherent world view" would leave us terribly ignorant of the deadly potential of asteroid strikes, which would also lead to an absolutely unprepared scientific community, military forces, and civil authorities...
Science - TRUE science - is all about change and modification - open-mindedness... Though I can see how the constantly shifting viewpoints of TRUE science would cause feelings of uneasiness within people who crave a Newtonian, 'ordered' universe...
But think of it this way - when one is traveling - in a car, train, or plane - as one watches the landscape slip by, one has - MUST HAVE - a constantly changing viewpoint of the scenery, as one's position changes in relation to the landscape due to the forward movement of the vehicle - thereby, one's own forward movement...
To have a "Coherent World View" would be like painting a scene of a sylvan lake on the insides of the car's/train's/plane's windows... Which would then lead to great disorientation when the observer is faced with the fact that his pretty, static viewpoint was a delusion... Especially if one lands in an arid place like Arizona or southern Nevada, or a large city like Los Angeles... The difficulties in adapting to the harsh reality (of an arid, barren desert) after looking at a painted picture of a lush lakeside view would be great, indeed...
On the other hand, a "liberal" Christian has his/her mind OPEN - to further information! Their views can be MODIFIED to fit the facts - and I'll take THAT state of affairs over some rigid, unyielding, absolute "Coherent World View" ANY DAY!!
Zid
 
zoiks
zoiks 6 years ago

While watching The Atheism Tapes, I found that Mr. Weinberg's take on fundamentalists makes sense, from an outsider's perspective. There definitely is the appearance of a "coherent worldview" in many fundamentalist groups.
The willingness to admit that you don't have all of the answers, and the willingness to change your view in light of new ideas and new evidence - that intellectual honesty tends to look "soft" or "weak".
This is not a problem with fundamentalists.
 
ziddina
ziddina 6 years ago

"The willingness to admit that you don't have all of the answers, and the willingness to change your view in light of new ideas and new evidence - that intellectual honesty tends to look "soft" or "weak"...."
Good point, Zoiks... That, in fact, was what sunk Kerry's presidential campaign [in large part...] - the fundamentalists attacked his flexibility and ability to see the 'gray' areas, as 'weaknesses'... Fundamentalists want absolutes, certainty.... As do most uncertain, frightened people...
 

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"Religious Fundamentalists Have a Coherent Worldview"
by leavingwt 6 years ago 22 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

On the other hand, a "liberal" Christian has his/her mind OPEN - to further information! Their views can be MODIFIED to fit the facts - and I'll take THAT state of affairs over some rigid, unyielding, absolute "Coherent World View" ANY DAY!!

Interesting description.

In other words, "liberal Christians" are unpredictable, but reasonable. <------ This seems best for one's mental health, IMHO. Less cognitive dissonance.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 6 years ago

While commenting on a recent post at Proud Atheists, I found myself again reflecting on how I have more respect for fundamentalist Christians
Like recognizes like.
BTS
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

Like recognizes like.

He left himself wide open for this very criticism!
 

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Topic Summary
fundamentalists vs. liberal christians.
while commenting on a recent post at proud atheists, i found myself again reflecting on how i have more respect for fundamentalist christians than the so called liberal christians.
of course, i realize that "respect" isn't the best word here because religious fundamentalists are hardly worthy of respect.



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The posts about exJWs turning atheist
by AmazingProgeny 15 years ago 5 Replies latest 15 years ago   jw friends
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AmazingProgeny
AmazingProgeny 15 years ago


They got me thinking about something written by someone I know from a different website. She is a really neat person and I enjoy reading her posts. She has never been a JW. She is a scientist and a Christian. She wrote about the relationship between faith and science. I don't know how much this subject has been discussed before, but I thought some of you might enjoy it.
I am often torn two ways, by both my sisters-in-Christ and by my working brothers in my professional, by comments that are discounting to whichever portion of my philosophical life that person doesn't share. I believe it is possible to be both rigourously scientific, and devoutly faithful, without any internal conflict. As a scientist -- applied, at least -- myself, I offer the following essay for consideration:
A respected scientist recently condemned Christianity as "essentially irrational". I frequently hear the assertion that "science has disproved Christianity". On the other hand I hear about "the faithless arrogance of scientists" or that science teachers, in teaching something that is "just a theory", are engaged in an assault against Christianity. Caught in the middle are Christian scientists (as opposed to Christian Scientists <g>) who occasionally claim that in fact science supports or even proves the claims of Christianity.
I contend that all three of these perspectives betray a basic misunderstanding of the nature of faith, science, and the relationship between them.
Yes, faith is irrational. So are oranges, "Die Fledermaus", and pi. "Irrational" is not an inherently negative term; it simply refers to something that cannot be systematicly reduced to a root concept or idea. Why would we be offended at the claim that our faith cannot be reduced? The great modern theologians like Emmanuel Kant recognised this in the concept of "the leap of faith"; we make such leaps on a regular basis. Is play rational? Is love rational? No. But they are none-the-less real.
Why, for that matter, would someone expect faith to follow the rules of "rationality" that are appropriate to an entirely different domain of hman experience, to whit, science? For the most part, that notion begins with the theologian/mathematician Rene Descartes. Descartes, of "I think, therefor I am" fame, nearly single-handedly transformed the philosophy of the western world. His concept of the number-line demonstrated that arithmetic clearly has no limits at either positive or negative infinity. Although arithmetic has no intrinsic reality -- it is only a self-consistent analytical system -- it is used in daily experience to help us understand *reality*. If arithmetic demonstrates that no "first cause" is necessary, then how can we claim that *reality's* need for a "first cause" proves the existence of God?
By combining two or three number-lines, Descartes created "Cartesian planes" and "Cartesian spaces" in which arithmetic could be used to study shapes and solids. At a simplistic level, this suggested another "proof" for the existence of God: that as an (infinite) plane is required to contain an (infinite) line, and a space is required to contain a plane, so eventually one must come to a "first context" which sustains all subordinate contexts. Some Christian theologians adopted this concept of the "first context" to replace the "first cause" argument, but no great mathematical insight is required to see that they are manifestations of the same idea, and subject to the same fallacy. A more important effect of this new mathematics was that it broke forever the previously-impervious barrier between algebraic reasoning and Euclidean reasoning. If that impervious barrier could be broken, why not the barrier between philosophy and science? Could not science and mathematics be used to describe *everything*? Hence the Age of Reason was born, with Rene Descartes as its father. Christian apologists, few of whom understood the rational of their aruguments with anything approaching Descarte's acuity, began explaining to the world how science "proved" Christianity.
Descartes himself did not buy in to the fallacies of the Age of Reason. "Cogito, ergo sum" (I think, therefor I am) is *not* a rational argument. It does not "prove" the existance of God, nor does it intend to. Yet, it is essentially "scientific". Because SCIENCE IS NOT ABOUT PROOF! Science is not about "facts". Science is a method!!!
The scientific method is as follows: the scientist makes careful, detailed *observations*. "Observations" are the only part of science that has an inarguable claim to be "fact". A fact is something like "an apple, held at a distance above the ground and then released, accellerates toward the ground". The scientist then imagines a theory that explains the observation: "an invisible attractive force acts between two masses", and may have to create certain definitions as part of the theory: "that force being called gravity". The scientist then uses his theory to predict some *different* behaviour than has previously been observed, and sets up certain conditions in which that behaviour *can* be observed. An experiment is never a "failure", whether the predicted behaviour is observed or not, as long as it adds to the body of "observations" from which new theories can be imagined. In fact, the experiments that non-scientists consider "failures" are the most exciting, because the scientist must then refine his theory, or create a new one, that adequately explains *all* the observations. The experiments must also be repeatable by different scientists, so that the observations are utterly objective. Scientific theories are continually being refined, as we add to humanities experience. A shallow or simplistic understanding of a theory can usually be shown to have multiple flaws; but the advanced scientific statement of the theory is always considerably more robust.
We should all be concerned if our science teachers are teaching theory as fact. Not because theories are suspect -- the atomic theory of matter, the theory of gravity, magnetic field theory, and so on are all "just" theories -- but because teaching "fact" instead of "method" presupposes that answers are more important than questions. And when we stop questioning, science stops. Even -- or perhaps especially -- when a theory challenges the teachings of our religion, our children benefit from examining both the observations that the theory explains, and the testing that the theory has undergone. A theory may be the simplest explaination of all available observations, and still be wrong.
Should the same method be applied to our faith? Should we build theories based on doctrine or dogma, and then apply them to rigorous testing to set faith up as a competitor to Science? I say, with Descartes, a hearty "No". Science is utterly objective; faith occurs inside our hearts, the gift of grace, utterly subjective. Science and faith are as different as "taste" and "sleep" -- neither related, nor complementary, nor mutually exclusive. To hold one up in condemnation of the other is specious.
I experience Jesus in an utterly personal way. That is not Science. It is the essence of Faith.
I look forward to hearing what you have to say about it.
AmazingProgeny
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


AP
As you know, being brought us JW with years of inculcation NOT to trust science or scientists has had a major impact in my life.
For about the last 8 years I have been working at a way to reconcile the two.
This started when my daughter (now 11, then 3 and fascinated with dinosaurs) wondered where they all went? I did NOT share with her any of the WBTS articles but instead bought her some books which we read together.
Maybe that was the beginning of the end for me.
Also, like many JW youth in my area, I had some experience in this matter. 10th grade Science subject matter is Biology. My parents (along with all other JW youth in our hall) did not allow me to take this course.
Conflict between Jehovah and Science, they said.
Thanks for your post.
Lisa
 
Amazing
Amazing 15 years ago


Hi AP: Thanks for this post. One thing to consider here is that there is an ongoing battle between young earth creationists, fundamentalists, and some who are very well versed in the theory and laws of evolutionary science. Walk carefully my daughter, lest you be caught in the middle of this war and get nuked.
I have taken a moderate position of accepting that evolution is fact, mainly because too many scientific facts support it, and more evidence is building in its favor all the time, yet, I hold that God commenced the process.
But, that said, I am also caught in the mix of all kinds of difficult questions about God's purpose, wisdom, love, and relationship with the human race. Just so you know.
I think one who best presents evolution and healthy scientific debate on this topic, without nuking people or personally attacking them, is Alan F. Jan H is okay too.
Thanks again. - Dad
 
ros
ros 15 years ago


Hello, AmazingProgeny:
Here is a link I thought you might enjoy. Its one of my favorite.
http://www.looksmart.com/r?page=/search/frames/index.html&isp=acc&name=&bcolor=cccccc&key=golden+design+god&url=http%3a//www.evolutionoftruth.com/&pskip=&nskip=15&se=0,0,0,0,1000&index=3
Also, this one:http://www.looksmart.com/r?page=/search/frames/index.html&isp=acc&name=&bcolor=cccccc&key=Francis+collins+religion&url=http%3a//www.sciam.com/1998/0298issue/0298profile.html&pskip=&nskip=15&se=0,0,0,0,544&index=1
 
Quester
Quester 15 years ago


Hello AP.
I really liked your post. Thanks for sharing it.
The point about just because something is irrational
does that mean it's not real, ie play, love, etc., reminded
me of something Hans Kung wrote (well-known Catholic
German theologian). He said:
"The proof of God is no more logically stringent than is love."
I don't think that is quite the same as saying love is
irrational, but a similar point perhaps.
Your post also mentioned leap of faith and experiencing
Jesus in a personal way...
After spending the last 9 months researching Biblical
criticism and having everything I've ever believed in
torn down, I am feeling pretty ignorant about God and
the Bible. I have come to that "edge" where I've asked
myself, "Why do I still believe in God?"
And it boils down to personal experiences and faith.
Logical? Rational? Scientific? Emotional? Credulity?
No. I don't know how to label it or define it.
It's a knowing through experiences and there are no words
to adequately describe it.
I would say that faith denotes trust and believing that there is
something to all of this--enough to take the first step and then
another, etc. And in the process of taking these steps, we learn,
we make adjustments, and our faith is affirmed with personal
experiences.
I think a lot of decisions in life are like that--a calculated risk
based on our understanding of the information at the time.
No guarantees.
There's always that chance I could be wrong.
I was soooo wrong about the jw religion.
I can understand why people would be hesitant to trust
and leap again.
I read your intro, and noticed that you mentioned attending the
United Methodist church. It seems that most xjw's are totally
turned off by organized religion, and I was also--until recently.
I've been out of the org for about 6 years now. I'm not exactly
sure why I've been checking out the different religions in my area.
I don't really want to join anything. I think what I am looking for
is association with like-minded Christians. I would be interested
in hearing more about your experiences with organized religion
since leaving the jw religion. Did you check out different religions?
How/why did you choose United Methodist and do your beliefs
differ or do you agree with the doctrines?
Whatever you feel comfortable sharing.
Thanks, Quester
 
AmazingProgeny
AmazingProgeny 15 years ago


Quester, When I first left the JWs I wanted nothing to do with any religion. I just wanted to live my life with my faith untouched by other religions.
A couple of years later I did attend a Baptist church that my parents had started to attend. I found it so vastly different from the JWs that it took a while to adjust. The pastor, at that time, was very moderate and accepted that people would not agree 100% with the church. It was a good experience b/c it taught me that other Christians have just as much faith and spend just as much time involved in church activities as the JWs.
My husband and I moved away and found another Baptist church. For a short time it fit where I was in my faith. I was still fairly conservative in my beliefs. At the same time I found a website that had a message board for Christian Parents. Through it, I met a lot of different types of Christians. Some were ultra conservative, some moderate, and some very liberal. I learned a lot about the Bible, other faiths and so much more. Then a Religion Debate board was started and I began to learn about people of nonChristian faiths and atheists. I then began to really examine my own beliefs and to change some of them.
So, I outgrew the Baptist church I had been attending. I then decided I wanted to find a different church with more liberal views. I didn't really know where to start. I knew of a few that I didn't want to attend. I saw some newspaper ads for the local United Methodist Churches (UMC) and I was intrigued, but never did anything.
Along came a TV ad and it attracted my attention b/c it said that they were welcome and open to all people. I looked in the phone book and found the one closest to me. I checked out their website and read some stuff the pastor had written. Then I was ready to attend.
What I like about this church is that it fit the requirements I had. It is small and very welcoming towards new people. My kids love it and are loved in return. They are active in the community. The pastor is not full of herself. They don't care if my views on things are a bit different. I don't have to agree with everything they believe in order to be a member.
I'm not sure about membership yet. I will need to attend longer before I make a final decision. I still, in a small way, distrust organized religions. I'm taking my time and allowing myself the chance to fully examine everything around me in order to make the right decision.
I hope that answers your questions. Let me know if you have more.
AmazingProgeny
 

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JW, a Protestant Religion
by Gerard 12 years ago 14 Replies latest 12 years ago   watchtower bible
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Gerard
Gerard 12 years ago


I was just surfing TheFreedictionary.com and found their definition of Jehovah Witnesses: a Protestant denomination (!?!?):


Protestant denomination
 
Noun 1. Protestant denomination - group of Protestant congregations
Protestant Church , Protestant - the Protestant churches and denominations collectively
Disciples of Christ , Christian Church - a Protestant church that accepts the Bible as the only source of true Christian faith and practices baptism by immersion
Anglican Church , Anglican Communion , Church of England - the national church of England (and all other churches in other countries that share its beliefs); has its see in Canterbury and the Sovereign as its temporal head
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints , Mormon Church , Mormons - church founded by Joseph Smith in 1830 with headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah
Baptist Church , Baptists - any of various evangelical Protestant churches that believe in the baptism of voluntary believers
Baptist denomination - group of Baptist congregations
Christian Science , Church of Christ Scientist - Protestant denomination founded by Mary Baker Eddy in 1866
Congregational Church - a Protestant denomination holding that each individual congregation should be self-governing
Congregational Christian Church - merger of the Congregational Church and the Christian Church
Evangelical and Reformed Church - a Protestant denomination of Calvinist faith
United Church of Christ - merger of the Congregational Christian Church and the Evangelical and Reformed Church in 1957
Jehovah's Witnesses - Protestant denomination founded in the United States by Charles Taze Russell in 1884
Lutheran Church - the Protestant denomination adhering to the views of Martin Luther
Presbyterian Church - the Protestant denomination adhering to the views of John Calvin
Unitarian Church - the Protestant denomination that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity
Arminian Church - the Protestant denomination adhering to the views of Jacobus Arminius
Methodist Church , Methodists - a Protestant denomination founded on the principles of John Wesley and Charles Wesley
Methodist denomination - group of Methodist congregations
Anabaptist denomination - a Protestant sect denying infant baptism and baptising only believers
Mennonite Church - formed from the Anabaptist movement in the 16th century; noted for its simplicity of life
denomination - a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith
Assemblies of God - a charismatic Protestant denomination in the United States
 
Love_Truth
Love_Truth 12 years ago

But, of course.
 
Phantom Stranger
Phantom Stranger 12 years ago

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

 Definition:  1.\Prot"es*tant\, n. [F. protestant, fr. L. protestans, -antis, p. pr. of protestare. See {Protest}, v.] One who protests; -- originally applied to those who adheredto Luther, and protested against, or made a solemndeclaration of dissent from, a decree of the Emperor CharlesV. and the Diet of Spires, in 1529, against the Reformers, and appealed to a general council; -- now used in a popularsense to designate any Christian who does not belong to theRoman Catholic or the Greek Church.
 
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 12 years ago

Oh, yes. They protest and protest and protest against all religions. Do you know any denomination that has escaped their seething denunciations?
 
Gretchen956
Gretchen956 12 years ago


hmmmm..... everyone apparently knows they are all one and the same except the dubs.
Gretchen
 
FirstInLine
FirstInLine 12 years ago


Yeah, like what dont they protest. They are protestant of protestant.
The only thing they won't protest is being praised. They love praise more than anything else and when people don't actually praise them leave it to the talk giver at the district convention to talk of the praise that Jehovah's people bring to Jehovah's organization and his people.
 
RR
RR 12 years ago

It should read : Protestant denomination founded by Joseph Franklin Rutherford - 1931
 
freeman
freeman 12 years ago


RR you are spot on! This Frankenstein monster of a religion known today as Jehovah?s Witnesses hardly resembles what CT Russell started many years ago. The organization that exists today is largely the handiwork of a drunken, degenerate, and thankfully now very much deceased JF Rutherford.
Freeman
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 12 years ago

protestant - originally protested at the Roman Catholic Church -- the JWs have a go at all religions but especailly Catholic -- no doubt they are Protestant Sect
 
Gerard
Gerard 12 years ago



*** Reasoning From the Scriptures (1985, 1989) p.202 Jehovah's Witnesses ***
Are Jehovah's Witnesses a sect or a cult?
Some define sect to mean a group that has broken away from an established religion. Others apply the term to a group that follows a particular human leader or teacher. The term is usually used in a derogatory way. Jehovah's Witnesses are not an offshoot of some church but include persons from all walks of life and from many religious backgrounds. They do not look to any human, but rather to Jesus Christ, as their leader.
A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasizes devotion according to prescribed ritual. Many cults follow a living human leader, and often their adherents live in groups apart from the rest of society. The standard for what is orthodox, however, should be God's Word, and Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people.
 
Gopher
Gopher 12 years ago


drunken, degenerate, and thankfully now very much deceased JF Rutherford.

Hey, don't you know he's in heaven now directing the Governing Body of JW's??
That's why they're still such a wonderful bunch of guys.

JW's ARE A PROTESTANT RELIGION --- that makes them part of Christendom , right?
Christendom means "house of Christ", and they certainly think they're in that house?!
 
ColdRedRain
ColdRedRain 12 years ago


Hey, don't you know he's in heaven now directing the Governing Body of JW's??
God help us when the New System starts and he gives orders!
At least we won't be there
 
bebu
bebu 12 years ago


I remember a really weird cult, back in Wakayama in the late 1980s, committed mass suicide on a beach--I think it was 11 women who immolated themselves. The group was a cross between Jehovah's Witnesses and some other unique religious thoughts, with a controlling leader (of course). It was reported in the Japanese paper as being a protestant denomination.
"But of course."
bebu
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 12 years ago

I don't see the problem in calling the JWs Protestant (even though "Protestant sect" would be more appropriate). They are historically related to Second Adventism, they share the Protestant Bible Canon, their ecclesiology has a lot in common with Anabaptism, Baptism and Darbyism. This clashes with their self-definition but it is objectively true I think...
 
JCanon
JCanon 12 years ago


Thanks for that reference. This will likely have NO RELEVANCE to anyone here, except some of the anointed perhaps, but... Since it has come up.
The 70 weeks from the building of the first temple until the Messiah arrives PARALLELS the rebuilding of the new temple and relates to Jehovah's Witnesses. But it indicates they would come out of a PROTESTANT religion.
Basically, the apostasy is related to the Catholic Church. Time, time and half a time 1260 years is the apostasy period. It ends in 1996 at the end of the last 70 weeks which is 490 years beginning in 1506BCE. The JW connection is that the "temple will come into it's right condition" after 2300 evenings and mornings. An evening and a morning is one day, so 2300 eves and morns are actually 1150 days calculated as 1150 years against the 1260 years. Which means? Which means that basically the "temple" organization, the one recognized as holy enough to be chosen for special work of preaching the good news, etc. would come into existence for the last 110 years prior to 1996, that is, around 1886AD. That is the precise year that the first "Studies in the Scriptures" volume came out, the series of which became the foundation of a new group who eventually became known as Jehovah's witnesses.
Now how that relates to protestantism has to do with the rebuilding of the temple from the apostasy related to the rebuilding at the beginning of the 70 weeks (the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE began the rebuilding of the temple), in the modern age, this is rebuilding of the spiritual temple. 490 years from 1996 is 1506 and that is when MARTIN LUTHER became a monk. Of course, he then began the "prostestant" movement. Thus Martin Luther and his movement is seen as the spiritual rebuilding of the lost house of God with the eventual focus on one organization that would become the sacred "temple" organization 110 years before the end of the Covenant Period.
That having been noted, it should be apparent that the temple organization, if part of the rebuilding started by Martin Luther, would likewise come out of Protestantism.
So even JWs consider themselves the "original" true Christian religion and thus not stemming from Protestantism, we all know they do, and Biblically they are supposed to. By general comparison they are certainly Prostestant since they are not Catholic. Furthermore, all their early literature is so anti-Catholic they can hardly be classified as non-"Protestant". In Volume 7 of Studies in the Scriptures, the 666 Beast is identified as a number of a Catholic Pope and thus the anti-Christ, so.......
Just some "anointed group TRIVIA" for those interested. Biblically, the temple organization is supposed to come out of Protestantism so JWs, per the Bible are Protestant.
JC
 

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When commenting about a religion, make sure your titles are right?
by free2beme 10 years ago 2 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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free2beme
free2beme 10 years ago

The other day I was in the break room at work, and the topic of strange religions came up. I started talking about "The church of Scientology" and all the weird things they believe with aliens and ancient rulers, etc. Well I was basically right on in their strange stuff, but the whole time was was calling the religion "Christian Scientist" religion, which is a more acceptable and less weird religion. Well, not realizing my mistake in titles, I actually had a person in the room defending Christian Science and I was wondering why they would not admit what was so widely known about their faith and then it dawned on me and I asked, "did I say Christian Science, or Church of Sciencetology?" Which I found out, I titled wrong and had a good laugh. So many titles to keep track of and I swear they name themselves to sound like others sometimes. Just another example though of when commenting about a religion, make sure your titles are right? Anyone else every make a mistake like this?
 
Bstndance
Bstndance 10 years ago

People do that all the time. I heard a very informative report on Christian Science and I actually liked some of the stuff they had to say. The modern forms of the religion don't reject medicine as people would have you believe but now use medicine to compliment prayer. Ideally it is one of those mind over matter things and I like the overall theme that you can acomplish anything, including overcoming illness, if you just put your mind to it. I was telling someone else about what I learned and they were confused with Scientology and they kept wanting to argue.
 
funkyderek
funkyderek 10 years ago

I did that once. I was also talking about the Church of $cientology but I kept calling them "brain-dead gullible morons".
 

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Blood Transfusion: Christian Scientist youth
by compound complex 3 years ago 9 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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compound complex
compound complex 3 years ago

Jayne Halliburton turned 18 one month ago, just prior to her most recent hospitalization. She has been in and out of Shady Grove Hospital for most of her adolescence because of a uterus problem that causes considerable bleeding. Jayne is a member of the Christian Science faith. Christian Scientists reject the view that diseases are ‘real' and they turn to prayer in order to remedy errors of thought and belief that lead to the appearance of ‘disease.' The doctors in the hospital know Jayne well because of her prior hospitalizations, and at this point again they believe that she requires surgery.
Jayne's mother has objected to the treatment her daughter has received in the past. But the hospital petitioned the court to transfuse Jayne against her will. The courts have always agreed that physicians may carry out life-saving treatment on a minor.
As a matter of law, however, Jayne is now an adult. When approached about a transfusion this time, she says that she does not want to go against her religion. Her mother, who is almost always in the hospital room with Jayne, agrees. They both understand that Jayne might die if she does not receive treatment, but the mother insists that it would be better to die than to violate Scripture.
One morning, a physician talks to Jayne while her mother is out of the room. He asks Jayne if it's really her desire to decline treatment. In her answer, Jayne seems a little hesitant and says maybe she could accept it. The doctor says he will check with her a little later. When he does, Jayne's mother is present again, and Jayne says that she does not want treatment, "no matter what." Her mother nods in agreement.
http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/ethics/refusal.htm
 
Quarterback
Quarterback 3 years ago

That's interesting, CC
I wasn't aware that Christian Sience also abstained from blood.
 
compound complex
compound complex 3 years ago

Thanks, QB, for your response!
CC

Followers of two Christian religions - Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists - plus a few other non-affiliated churches in different parts of the United States - may be willing to undergo some forms of treatment, but restrict or deny other forms based on their religious beliefs. Each offers clear guidelines for making that determination.
Adults may rely on their church affiliation and its tenets to refuse treatment for themselves if they choose. However, they have less legal standing when it comes to making those choices for their children. Several court cases regarding children with different diseases and medical needs have addressed the legality of refusing treatment based on religious reasons, with varying outcomes.

http://patients.about.com/od/decisionmaking/tp/Do-Patients-Have-The-Right-To-Refuse-Medical-Treatment.htm
 
smiddy
smiddy 3 years ago

Thats very interesting CC . Patients that are coerced or intimitated by family or religous leaders in such circumstance are not uncommon. It doesnt make the doctors job any easier to treat the patient in what he/she beleives is the best procedure.Not an easy fix.
smiddy
 
compound complex
compound complex 3 years ago

You're right, smiddy -- not an easy fix. Thanks for reply.
CC
 
cantleave
cantleave 3 years ago

Familial and peer pressure is a powerful force.
 
compound complex
compound complex 3 years ago

How well all of us here know, cantleave.
Apart from this issue of permitting/denying blood treatment, the rights of patients in refusing medical treatment and tests in general is a vast subject. Below is information that is helpful to me as I deal with health matters:

As a matter of ethics and the law, adults who understand the consequences of their choices may decline any and all medical tests and treatments, even life-saving treatments. In part, this consensus emerged as a reaction against paternalistic medicine, in which physicians made the final decisions about treatment for patients. As a matter of respecting the importance of choice, contemporary medical ethics counsels against imposed tests and treatments. Adult patient are usually better situated than healthcare professionals - who may not know them well at all - to understand what medical tests and treatments mean in their lives. For similar reasons, the law treats unwanted treatment as battery, a kind of wrongful touching. http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/ethics/refusal.htm

Your post is appreciated.
CoCo
 
rip van winkle
rip van winkle 3 years ago

It is crucial for the treating Doctor to speak one- on- one to an adult patient to assess that their decision was made without undue influence or interference from a family member or religious organization.
 
compound complex
compound complex 3 years ago

SO important, rip.
Thank you!
CoCo
 
JWOP
JWOP 3 years ago

I used to take care of a Christian Scientist woman in a nursing home. In spite of her frailty and health problems she would not accept any treatment other than tylenol. It was sad to see her die like that.
 

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Are Jehovah's Witnesses considered a Catholic schism?
by sabastious 4 years ago 22 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

I was reading through this article: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/thechurch.html
and saw this:
1800
1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.

1872: The Jehovah's Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.

1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.
Do Catholics consider the Watchtower to be a schism created by Charles Taze Russell?
-Sab
 
JRK
JRK 4 years ago

Maybe a schism from the Millerite and Adventist movements.
JK
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Under Russell all congregations were autonomous, it was under Rutherford that the Watchtower began to resemble Catholicism and the College of Cardinals and also the Presbyterians with their General Assembly.
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

As JRK said, they're actually an offshoot of the Adventist movements...
 
blond-moment
blond-moment 4 years ago

Yeah, it all ties into the millerites.

 
jwfacts
jwfacts 4 years ago

Russell was raised a Presbyterian, turned athiest, then joined the Adventists. So I guess all those groups can claim him as their own, and that his is one of their apostates.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 4 years ago

Catholics see everyone that is not Catholic to be branched off from them as the original church.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Since all Christian denominations use a holy book derived from what the Roman Catholic Church put together in the First Council of Nicaea, then I guess that would make them all schisms of Catholicism, right?
-Sab
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Thats what I reakon...they are all working off the same selected books of the bible...give or take a few.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 4 years ago

I could be wrong but I am not certain Rome was crucial in the Council of Nicea. The emperor, yes. My understanding is that the Bishop of Rome was considered the first among equal. Most early Church fathers seem to come from outside Rome. Rome was much like NYC and DC, combined. It was important but not determinative. When I reach, certain ancient cities bishops seem even more important. Maybe it depended on the particular bishop and not the geographic location.
Rome became more important over time. Once unity was demanded by political figures, Rome became more dominant. The problem I see with explanations is the split between Catholics and Protestants colors the discussion. The evidence prob. cuts both ways. Catholics are certain Peter was the first pope. Others aren't certain Peter ever was in Rome. One thing is clear to me. No one was documenting this history or the records were lost.
I visited the catacombs under the Vatican. Early Christians were definitely there in a strong community. The contrast between the cathecombs which are not ad hoc burial places but rather crude nevertheless and the splendor upstairs in St. Peter's Basicila is striking.
I'd say Millerism and Adventists. Wikipedia discusses this. Witnesses and the groups from which they sprang believe the thousand year reign of Christ is very imminent and that they are restoring the only authentic version of Christianity. Christianity has not been authentic since almost the death and resurrection of Christ. I never noted a definite date when Christianity became fraudulent according to the Witnesses. I find it amazing that God would let humans live for countless generations without any guidance.
I keep forgetting the details for Miller. Sometime in the 1800s he predicted the end of the world. I've read accounts of what happened. Masses of people would ascend a mountain, selling all their posessions. Young children would be terrified of the end. Elation mounted up to midnight. (Can Christ only come at midnight?) The full day passed with no Christ. People were financially and emotionally destitute. He corrected his figures more times. No Christ. I don't know what innovations Russell made. Maybe none. He was wealthy and perhaps he just popularized it. My mom's family was active in Russell's time, She was a child. Rutherford was the one who truly created the Witnesses. Independent thinking was allowed among the Bible students.
I saw Russell era lit with my own eyes. It is full of occult symbols and crosses.
Hopefully, someone can explain. There are schisms within the Russell groups. Splinter groups emerged from the JWs. There is so much interesting history and we never learn it at the KH.
 
HappyDad
HappyDad 4 years ago

The title of your post and the fact that you would even bring such a topic up goes to show that you really do not/don't/or didn't know much about the religion you were involved/brought up with.
Were you ever a JW?
This topic is totally assinine and it looks like you were just picking residue out of your ass to even think about this.
HappyDad
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 4 years ago

Well then why don't you inform the person HappyDad or did you just log on to feel tough and insult some stranger because you don't have the nerve to talk to someone's face like that.

Us Jehobers would be in the top right where it says, "restorationalist"


 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 4 years ago

I am not sure what they are "considered." But they use a Protestant Bible and their idea of God is not Trinitarian but Unitarian.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago


The title of your post and the fact that you would even bring such a topic up goes to show that you really do not/don't/or didn't know much about the religion you were involved/brought up with.
Were you ever a JW?
This topic is totally assinine and it looks like you were just picking residue out of your ass to even think about this.
The tone in the link I provided sounded as if Catholics, or at least the ones that wrote the article, look at Jehovah's Witnesses as some sort of offshoot or schism. It sounded like a topic where there would be opinions on the matter so I made a post about it. And yes, of course I was a JW.
-Sab
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 4 years ago

The tone in the link I provided sounded as if Catholics, or at least the ones that wrote the article, look at Jehovah's Witnesses as some sort of offshoot or schism.
I agree that it is a schismatic religion, but not from the Catholic Church per se. In the narrow sense, Witnesses are many branches removed from Catholicism. I understand the lineage is (please forgive any omissions on my part): Catholics --> several Protestant groups --> Second Adventists (Miller) --> Bible Students (Russell) --> Jehovah's Witnesses (Rutherford, Fred Franz). (Yes, Rutherford's coup d' etat was a schism--Russell would hardly recognize what the Watchtower preaches today.)
In a wider sense, Jehovah's Witnesses are a schism from Christianity as a whole: Catholic, Orthodox, mainline Protestant, Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, all other believers but themselves--and they're mighty proud of it! If the Watchtower takes offense at being called "schismatic", that's because the word implies legitimacy of those from whom they have separated themeselves--the ones they call "Babylon the Great", "False Religions", "Christendom", etc.
So Schism--yes, but Catholic--not in particular.
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Wait- a - sec....
What - WHAT - is that "Assyrian" church??!!! [Thanks, Cagefighter, for posting that 'tree'...]
Looks interesting...
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 4 years ago

Many seem to confuse the term catholic with being synoymus with the roman catholci church, it isn't.
All christians are catholics, the temr means "universal" and was first applied to the universal church of Christ that ALL christians are part of.
Again, all christains are catholics but only those that accept the authority of the pope/vatican are ROMAN catholics.
The catholic church is comprised of ALL the believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, our loed and saviour, that he died and was ressurected and will come again.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 4 years ago

I think for the sake of argument we can assume Catholic means Roman Catholic like when I land on the moon and say "One small step for man" I mean women too.
The Millerites, Adventist and JW's are all classified as restorationals. Researching the branches of Christianity helped me realize the JW's were nothing special but just another branch. It helped with the guilt.
 
InquiryMan
InquiryMan 4 years ago

In Scandinavia JWs are generally not consideres christian, but rather a a movement with a christian background or christian resemblance.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

In Scandinavia JWs are generally not consideres christian, but rather a a movement with a christian background or christian resemblance.
Which is a pretty good description for a religion which gives more worship and credence to their own Governing Body and their ancient "Jehovah" than they do to Jesus Christ. They may have some background from the Roman Catholics, but they are a lot like the Mormons in that they have pretty much made up what they believe from pure imagination of the founders. It is interesting, though - that for all their considerable hate of the Roman Catholic Church, they have pretty much copied it organizationally including the Governing Body (and Pope, in past generations).
 

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Are Jehovah's Witnesses considered a Catholic schism?
by sabastious 4 years ago 22 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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WontLeave
WontLeave 4 years ago

God started Judaism and it devolved into chaos. There was no rhyme or reason, so everybody worshiped as they saw fit or understood. Eventually, Jesus started Christianity and it devolved into Catholicism. There was no rhyme or reason, but it was strictly enforced for about a thousand years. The majority did as they were told and probably really didn't understand or care about most of it. The Reformation started as the Catholic Church lost power and several people attempted to reboot Christianity as they saw fit or understood, based on their pet peeves with the Church.
One one hand, the Catholic Church is Christianity degraded, as it was the only representation - regardless of how false - for a long time. On the other hand, rejecting their beliefs and starting a new church being "an offshoot"? Imagine you were born to parents who told you your whole life that 2+2=3 and that's all you ever heard. Eventually, you become an adult, move out, then decide 2+2 is absolutely not 3, but 4 (or 5, or 17, or apple; whatever). Is your new belief system an offshoot of theirs or is it a rejection?
Just because the Catholic Church usurped authority over Christianity and centralized power of all churches first, does that validate their claim of possession? They reject the vast majority of the very book they compiled, yet claim to be the original and only true representative of it. I can claim I'm the queen of France and call anyone who disagrees an enemy of France and (if they're French) a rebel, but that doesn't make it so.
That being said, JWs and most church denominations cling to Catholic beliefs which were invented hundreds of years after the founder and charter members were dead. These obvious tethers to Catholic inventions give the Catholic Church some degree of evidence for their claims of origin.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 4 years ago

I suppose it is accurate that they descend from the Catholic Church in a timeline. Christianity is a schism of Judiasm. I don't know about his sources but Ehrman said that within years Christianity had shed its Jewish roots. Christians interpretated the Bible to bolster claims for Jesus as Christ. The Jewish link and scriptures were kept b/c Judaism was an ancient religion and ancient religions were respected.
When I read articles or books about schism that only talk about two or three steps in the timeline. There are splinter groups from the Witnesses.
I;m Protestant but I don't believe the earliest church would recognize Roman Catholicism. So much of this has to do with viewpoint and conferring legitimacy on ones own group. It doesn't mean the earlier group was purer or more degraded than the later group.
 
dogisgod
dogisgod 4 years ago

No.
 

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Topic Summary
i was reading through this article: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/thechurch.html.
1822: mormons founded by joseph smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.. .
1872: the jehovah's witness church was developed by charles russell.. .



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Another shunning, twisted US sect...
by Frog 11 years ago 3 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Frog
Frog 11 years ago


Can't add my own thoughts to this articles in the Guardian, I guess it always pays to take these sorts of things with a grain of salt, but you can't help but relate to this story when you're an ex-dub kiddo...see below
To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited

site, go to http://www.guardian.co.uk
The lost boys, thrown out of US sect so that older men can marry more

wives

Julian Borger in Washington

Tuesday June 14 2005

The Guardian
Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and

thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young

women available for older men, Utah officials claim.
Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped

on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told

they will never see their families again or go to heaven.

The 10,000-strong FLDS, which broke away from the Mormon church in 1890

when the mainstream faith disavowed polygamy, believes a man must marry

at least three women to go to heaven. The sect appeared to be in

turmoil yesterday, after its assets were frozen last week and a warrant was

issued in Arizona on Friday for the arrest of its autocratic leader,

Warren Jeffs, for arranging a wedding between an underage girl and a

28-year-old man who was already married.

Mr Jeffs is also being sued by lawyers for six of the Lost Boys for

conspiracy to purge surplus males from the community, and by his nephew,

Brent Jeffs, who accuses him of sexual abuse.

Warren Jeffs' whereabouts yesterday were uncertain, but Utah officials

said they believed he may be hiding in an FLDS compound near Eldorado,

Texas, and they have contacted the Texan authorities.

Some have voiced concern that an attempt to corner the sect leader

could provoke a tragedy like the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian sect in

Waco, Texas.

Jim Hill, an investigator in Utah's attorney general's office, told The

Guardian yesterday: "From everything I've been able to discern about

Warren Jeffs, he is someone who is capable of some very different things.

Whether that includes a mass suicide, I don't know. But I worry about

it all the time."

FLDS officials and the sect's lawyer, Rodney Parker, did not return

calls seeking comment, but have previously argued that the Lost Boys were

exiled from their communities because they were teenage delinquents who

refused to keep the sect's rules.

Mr Hill said although the boys may have been rebellious, their

expulsion had more to do with the ruthless sexual arithmetic of a polygamous

sect.

"Obviously if you're going to have three to one or four to one female

to male marriages, you're going to run out of females. The way of taking

care of it is selectively casting out those you don't want to be in the

religion," the investigator said.

Dave Bills, who runs Smiles for Diversity, a foundation in Salt Lake

City set up by an ex-FLDS member to look after the Lost Boys, said it was

difficult to estimate their numbers because they had been scattered.

But Mr Bills said the figures could be "as low as 400 and as high as

1,000".

"They live every day like it's their last day and they don't care about

anything," Mr Bills said. "They're told they won't have three wives,

and they're doomed. But they all want to go back to their mums."

One of the boys, Gideon Barlow, said he was expelled from a FLDS

community in Colorado City, Arizona, for wearing short-sleeved shirts,

listening to CDs and having a girlfriend. He said his mother rejected him on

orders from the sect's leaders.

"I couldn't see how my mum would let them do what they did to me," he

told the Los Angeles Times. After his expulsion, he attempted to give

her a Mother's Day present but she told him to stay away. "I am dead to

her now," he said.

Joanne Suder, a lawyer representing some of the Lost Boys in a case

against the sect, said there had been "a conspiracy to excommunicate young

boys to change the arithmetic so there are more young girls available

for polygamy."

She said some of the boys were simply driven out of town and dumped on

the side of the road, leaving them traumatised. "I think anyone who

finds themselves ousted from the only environment they ever knew and left

in the middle of nowhere, and then is not allowed to be with their

family and loved ones, and is led to believe that they can no longer go to

heaven, is going to be troubled," Ms Suder told The Guardian.

Polygamy is illegal in the US, but the authorities have been wary of

confronting the FLDS for fear of provoking a siege or inviting political

attacks for religious persecution.

State investigators have also found it hard to persuade FLDS members to

give evidence against Mr Jeffs. However, authorities in Utah and

Arizona have recently increased the pressure on the sect's leader, Last week,

a Utah judge froze FLDS assets, and the attorney's office in Mohave

County, Arizona, charged Mr Jeffs for arranging a marriage between a

28-year-old married and a 16-year-old girl. If convicted he could serve up

to two years in prison.

Mr Jeffs inherited the leadership of the FLDS three years ago after the

death of his father, Rulon. Since then, he has ruled its enclaves on

the Arizona-Utah border, in Texas and Canada with fearsome discipline. At

the age of 49 he has reportedly fathered at least 56 children by 40

wives.

There have been no confirmed sightings of Mr Jeffs for over a year, but

a photograph of a man resembling the sect leader was taken in January

at the FLDS 1,700-acre Texas ranch near Eldorado.

Randy Mankin, the editor of the local newspaper, the Eldorado Success,

said: "People on the ranch don't have contact with the outside world.

Two men only do whatever is necessary to do their business."

What is the FLDS?

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints split

off from the Mormon church in 1890, when the mainstream faith disavowed

polygamy.

The sect has communes in Utah, Arizona, Texas and Canada. It is the

biggest polygamous group in the US.

What does the FLDS believe?

Polygamy allows a higher birth rate, increasing the "righteous"

population. No man can go to heaven if he has less than three wives. The sect

believes black people are inferior, the offspring of Cain. It teaches

that America was first colonised by a lost tribe of Israelites and was

visited by Jesus after his resurrection.

Who runs the sect?

Warren Jeffs, 49, inherited the leadership in 2002 after his father,

Rulon, died. He has pursued a hard line against sect members deemed to

fall short of "perfection", and has purged hundreds from the ranks,

mostly men and boys. He is estimated to have 40 wives and 56 children. His

whereabouts are uncertain but he is widely thought to be holed up in the

FLDS compound outside El Dorado, Texas.

Who are the "lost boys"?

Among those purged from the sect are between 400 and 1,000 teenage boys

and young men. The FLDS describes them as delinquents. Utah authorities

say they were thrown out to make more girls available as wives for

older men in the sect.
Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited
 
luna2
luna2 11 years ago

How sad is that? Stinking cults.
 
free2beme
free2beme 11 years ago

INsanity is by no means something the Witnesses own right too. I think ALL religion does ... can not stress that ALL enough
 
greendawn
greendawn 11 years ago

Deep down it's the same sort of spirt that operates in the two sects mormon and JW even though the JWs may appear to be less exreme.
It's incredible that they should do something of this sort and they are clearly some of the worse people on earth.
 

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20/20 A house Divided FLDS church
by James Mixon 10 months ago 7 Replies latest 10 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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James Mixon
James Mixon 10 months ago

I can't believe they still going strong. Tonight on 20/20.
The Clippers basketball game is done.LOL
 
berrygerry
berrygerry 10 months ago

Watching it now.
Cultonomics.
(Child labor on an industrial scale - hmmm.)

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 10 months ago

This is the sickest crap I have ever seen, and it is taking place
here in the USA. They are a step below JW's...
 
berrygerry
berrygerry 10 months ago

Okay.
Seed-Bearer ritual is ...

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 10 months ago
an orgy..
 
berrygerry
berrygerry 10 months ago

No, I understand.
It's like the old Catholic "blessing" of a marriage by the priest on the bride.
It's just, okay, this is 2015.
And the poor "apostate" mom's efforts to connect with her kids - any DF'd JW parent knows this ANGUISH.
Fucking cults.
(And MEGA-kudos for ABC for taking on cults.)

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 10 months ago
It would be nice for JW's to watch this and make the connection.
 
berrygerry
berrygerry 10 months ago


It would be nice for JW's to watch this and make the connection.
Nope. THAT IS A CULT! We have THE TRUTH.

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ive just had a visit from the jws
by looloo 6 years ago 8 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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looloo
looloo 6 years ago

its not that long sice a couple of men called , i thought i would have been made a "do not call" after all i told them ! but two middle aged ladys called on me , and on the odd occasion i gave them chance to speak i found out they live in divided households , which they felt the "born ins" could not understand , i told them why i had moved areas , they asked where i was from and i said i would rather not say , i told them of my childs abuse by a ex min servant , they asked if it had been on the news recently , i said no but you may be thinking of the man in hull about 4 days ago who abused in the cong for around 40 years ,that was in the paper and possibly the news but there has been quite a few lately in our country alone so its hard to keep track . the lady immediatly brought up the catholic abuse story in the media at the moment to which i replied "but im talking about jehovahs witnesses ,love believe me its widespread in your relgion too aswell as the catholics . i mentioned that around the time of our court case it was on the news in america about the watchtower having to fork out millions to abuse victims for having badley handled situations ofchild sex abuse . they looked stunned , one lady asked me "why do you think the elders have handled theses things so badly " i replied that some of it is from the top as they requirE 2 witnesses etc but some of it is down to individuals who lets face it most of them are window cleaners so what do they know about how to handle abuse victims or child molesters , so they should hand it over to the police and counsellors who do know , they agreed with me and said they had always thought that the police were always called in these situations . i told them i had spoke to a elder at bethel over the phone once who told me they dont have to report abuse in our country (england) they seemed really concerned and one said "gosh i hope there isnt a paodophile in our congregation " i said well there was 2 in the cong i studied in , that i know of so be vigilant ! they were both really nice ladys and didnt waste time quoting the watchtower she had in her hand , i even told them i had been refered to as an apostate by the abuser and his family and they didnt do a runner lol ! they asked if i still believed in god , i said i did but trust nobody ! i said jehovahs witnesses are very similar to other religions(cults) i have read books on like the children of god and flds etc anyway after about half an hour i said i had to go , one of them gave me a hugand said we hope to see you again , i have a feeling that if they repeat my conversation to an elder they will definatly not be seeing me again and i will be passed off as some lying apostate , but i believe i gave a"good witness" and unless they think i deserve an oscar for my performance they will know i was telling truth. n
 
SBaySteve
SBaySteve 6 years ago

Well bully for you looloo! I think you exercised great restraint in your conversation as you've described it. I know when I was still going duh-to-DUH these kinds of interactions were quite disturbing as I knew on some level the stories had to be true. You did those ladies a favor in being honest with them but not bitter (at least it seemed so in your telling). My son was molested by the son of an elder, who had himself been molested by one of our Ministerial Serpents who was also a Regular Pioneer. We were threatened with expulsion if we reported it, and were subsequently "iced out" in the congregation by the elder whose son was the molester, as a pre-emptive strike I suppose. In a small town we felt it every day and round the clock. And yet we faithfully attended all the meetings, made rosy comments that were expected, did our dooring and tried to swallow our outrage, shock and pain. I can't even think of how my son interpreted our ongoing, albeit forced, association with these ASSHOLES. At any rate, it's ancient history by now, but you are certainly correct (IMHO) in your assertion that it is rampant in that organization and has been for a looooong time (back to Rutherford and others in fact).
Good show, looloo!
Steve in S. California, US
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

Unfortunately, I live on the other side of the planet so it is unlikely my JW wife will be knocking on your door.

She needs to.

Cheers
Chris
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 6 years ago

very good angle LooLoo, I'll try that next time!
 
Mad Sweeney
Mad Sweeney 6 years ago

You rock, girl! I hope they both come back and you can start a "study" with them.
Apostates: Saving Cult Victims One Knock at a Time!
 
Lozhasleft
Lozhasleft 6 years ago

Well done to you ...lets hope that you provoked some curious doubts in their minds ...and all credit to you for being so dignified in the situation. Not easy with the injustices you have evidently suffered.
Loz x
 
looloo
looloo 6 years ago

thanyou for your kind comments , i think that you get a much better responce from people if you are polite to them and dont take out the actions of a few bad apples on them , i feel that by conducting myself in such a manner prooves to them that not all who turn their backs on "the truth" are bitter and twisted individuals who are rude and ignorant and that way it might make them look up the things i mentioned and help them see they have been fooled the way i was , they felt sorry for me but the funny thing is they didnt realise how sorry i felt for them , because reading between the lines of what they said i think they have had problems too . i havnt always been slow to anger where this subject is concerned , you should have seen me in court when myself and my family had to be "removed " after the sentence was announced and i took the chance to say a few words to my childs rapist !(my ex friend )
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 6 years ago

if they asked me weather I'd seen the news lately I'd also say " no not much in the news of any real interest, the WTS are still members of the UN and children and babies are dying as we speak due to your blood policy"
 
LittleSister
LittleSister 6 years ago

Looloo you are amazing, personally I don't think there is one cong in the UK that doesn't have a problem with abusers. Certainly every cong I was ever in had one at some point, which is why I will never let my kids near a KH.
Perhaps the more people like you speak out the more children can be saved.
 

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Again debating Sipping The Kool-Aid, I'm just frustrated....
by Confuzzled 6 years ago 17 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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Confuzzled
Confuzzled 6 years ago

Sorry if this is rambling. I just have some thoughts I need to get out.
I've mentioned before my thought about faking my way through the cult, or at least pretending to, would make my life easier. Not that I want too. I've harbored a morbid curiosity with the cult simply because of all the research I've done, and actually going to a meeting or two would be for me like watching a train wreck, or poking a dead body with a stick. I've flirted with the idea of at least pretending to be interested in the cult for the sake of my relationship. If I act glazed eyed and obedient for a couple hours a week, and submit to being patronized for a little while, my life and relationship would be easier. I've been told online AND off by former JWs that it's a bad idea to even go to one meeting even out of curiosity. I'm well aware of the used car saleman, time share representive sales tactics the use, and the love bombing. But sometimes I just feel like giving up the fight with my BF over this. I'm naturally rebellious, strangers make me nervous (I'm a cautious person anymore do to other reasons having nothing to do with my current relationship), and I cannot stand fake people to the point I point out hypocrisy I see (I'm a tad antisocial). These are all things I would either have to hide and/or put up with if I just "Yes Dear"ed it and pretended to act interested in he cult just to make my life easier. It would probably make it harder, though, I understand that. I'm not made to be a cult member. Luckily I think my partner realizes this, and he can see through me anyway. Before I showed up here awhile ago and began lurking everyday, and rarely asking for advice, I had told him, "The only way I would do this is for you." He said the only reason I should do it is for myself and "Jehovah" (which is a name I refuse to say out loud). Thankfully, I started reading first, but the only thing really in the begining that kept me from it was the Trinity, the annointed (YEAH, I'll believe that one!), and the Governing Body, and the revolving doctrines (ok it looked ke shit to me from the very begining in retrospect). Then I really started reading here, and other recovery websites (Damn you stumbling apostates! LOL), and it took me one afternoon to make a decision. Absolutely not, everything I thought was bullshit really is bullshit. So on with my research, which is fascinating stuff. I was really into reading books by former members of the FLDS, so it sort of appealed to me, then I started seeing the paralells between the two cults, and the skeleton structure of what a cult is. It became scary to see how close I was to joining something so similar, and even though I can see it, the fact I still harbor the idea of joining. In one of the FLDS books I read (I think it was Stolen Innocence, I've read a few so I can't remember) that the authors parents started out trying to convince someone else not to convert, only to end up converting themselves. Then I wonder out of pure curiosity, did anybody know of anybody as anti-JW as I developing Stockholm Syndrome?
I'm not going to do this. I'm just hormonal and trying to patch up holes in my relationship, and a majority of our problems are not WTS related, but it doesn't make my life any easier. Thanks for the ear to listen, and I apologize again for the rambling unstructured post!
 
Outaservice
Outaservice 6 years ago

Have you thought of getting a different BF and hence getting a 'new life'?
Outaservice
 
yknot
yknot 6 years ago

The bait is 'high standards of morality'.........
The hook that snags a person is agreeing to limit associations to or placing higher value on associations with Witnesses simple based on their being a JW.
Ask yourself..... is he willing to make the same compromises/sacrifices in attending whatever religious or alternative activity you choose? If he wouldn't attend with you elsewhere, than you should attend with him.
If your only reason is curiousity: I suggest attending the CBS/TMS/SM.
Before attending make sure to read all publications to be used too.... (KM, NWT passages, "Come Follow", Reasoning, Benefit and OD)
 
White Dove
White Dove 6 years ago

Don't get manipulated into a cult. A person who doesn't respect your freedom of choice in religion and other things is not worth your effort.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

The closer you get to the JWs and their Emotional Blackmail, the tighter the noose around your liberty will get.

I cannot recall your specific family situation. However, PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN from negative influences (e.g., destructive, apocalyptic, high-control groups) is a noble goal.
 
Confuzzled
Confuzzled 6 years ago

Thanks Yknot....The truth is I don't want to. It would be selling my soul to the very devils I'm trying to defeat, just because I'm sick of fighting. I'm just frustrated.

Outaservice: I can't leave him just yet. I have an extremely complicated relationship with this person that transcends bailing at this particular time. I would love to explain more, but not only would the post be REALLY long, it would not be hard identify this person should this forum be stumbled on. I made the mistake of telling him that I had spoken with victims over the internet, because he accused me of only speaking to two people. I think he's been on Silentlambs.com, so I'm not taking my chances with identifying characteristics. Lets just say at the current moment, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
 
JWoods
JWoods 6 years ago

You said you were a stubborn person who did not much trust other people.
I would hang on to that.
Be stubborn about being forced into the JW cult, and maintain your mistrust of them.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

Then I wonder out of pure curiosity, did anybody know of anybody as anti-JW as I developing Stockholm Syndrome?
My uncle was very anti-JW after his wife joined and she dragged my mother into it. (That was the initial link to JW's)
I don't know his full conversion story, but somewhere along the way, he became a full-speed-ahead JW and still serves.
Examples like my uncle make me wonder just how much exposure to the religion that children should have. I know if one parent refused any exposure when the other parent is JW, it would sometimes cause them to think it was some wonderful huge secret withheld from them. But a little exposure causes the JW to demand/request more. They ask that the child accompany them in field recruiting and they try to make it fun by stopping at the donut shop. Posters here tell us about their children worrying about "Daddy" being destroyed by Jehovah because he isn't a JW.
 
Confuzzled
Confuzzled 6 years ago

Or Mommy going to hell because she hates "Jehovah" and wears a cross.......
 
White Dove
White Dove 6 years ago


 
yknot
yknot 6 years ago

The truth is I don't want to
You have said it.......now embrace it fully...... and be at peace with yourself and religious freedom.
Whatever the situation is and bailing ain't an immediate option, doesn't mean you can't make small steps to ending what sounds like an unbalanced relationship.
I know we all cave to our men sometimes (okay a lot)....... but since he isn't going to Mass/Service with you in an equal compromise it would be akin to throwing pearls at swine. He won't appreciate your gesture, rather he will begin to expect it as a token of your affection.
Why not take a leap...... leave this website open for him to find and encourage him to 'lurk' some and to get an idea of your fears. He will probably immediately dismiss the idea, but pursue it......say some of the things you have read really really bother you! Pull up those links and discuss them fully or until the frustrations grows to the point where you suggest that 'yall' join to ask questions of these JWN people. See if you can get him to be interactive.
Greenie's post are similar in nature, her fiance and father of her child is a born-in but never dunked 'lax' JW. He has started back attending loosely since the birth of their child. She talks about her struggle to just wants mutual balance and respect. She just wants a loving two parent home for her little one......
For as much as he is involved with the JWs, be involved in your congregation...... share with him all the wonderful things happening in your church!
Best Wishes, Standfirm in your desires.
 
Confuzzled
Confuzzled 6 years ago

He told me he would not disrespect "Jehovah" at this point by attending church with me, and we worship idols, meaning the cross, the windows, and statuary that decorate our sanctuary. I HAVE NEVER worshipped anything inanimate in my life, but he doesn't believe me, or doesn't understand. He will not go. I tld him go with my dad, without me, but he still won't. He also steadfastly refuses to read anything anti-JW, not even to humor me. I suspect he has, though, as i suspect most JWs with internet access have. One of his biggest goals is to become a staunch JW. He sows his oats now, but is convinced that he will be ready to "get dunked" in a few years. He doesn't even feel worthy of the title JW right now. He sees them as the holiest and most peaceful people alive. 0_o. Thats a crock. I don't believe in Buddha, but if he was looking for holiness and peace he should of went to them!
I should start going to mass again, but as an Episcopalian, I'm suffering from my own crisis of faith (Google "Episcopal Church" to see our dirty laundry) and some of the things the hierarchy of my church is doing is as hypocritical as the JW church. Becoming Lutheran is not uncommon in my church nowadays. May be I'll look into that! LOL oh Lord, no wonder people stay or become JW, it must be relaxing to have people tell you what to say and think!
 
dgp
dgp 6 years ago

Confuzzled, yes, it's relaxing to have people tell you what to say and think. But it's not better. The people on this thread will tell you loads about it.
You like the idea of improving yourself and holding yourself to high moral standards, and that is fine. You can find a lot of that outside, and it does not need to come from a religion.
Did you ever read the twenty-one commandments of atheists? Here they are:
1. We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
2. We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
3. We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
4. We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
5. We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
6. We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
7. We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
8. We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
9. We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
10. We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
11. We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
12. We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
13. We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
14. We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
15. We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
16. We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
17. We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
18. We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
19. We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
20. We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
21. We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.
Do you need religion for any of these?
I understand what you're going through. You wish it were easier to be with the man you love.
Take care.
 
Judge Dread
Judge Dread 6 years ago

No matter where you go, there is, and there will be, "bullshit".
You are free to do what ever you want.
Better to be alone than to compromise.
Judge Dread
 
Confuzzled
Confuzzled 6 years ago

DGP that sounds a lot of what I was raised to believe. But I know there is a God, I have been delivered from to much. I also believe in organized religion, one not being "The Truth" over another. I think it gives a good frame to work from. I'm also a (poor) practioner of LOA which a lot of people think is bullshit (I can totally understand why) but I've actually seen it work in my own life, and it's a job and a half to maintain. I don't discuss it because it does sound like bullshit, until you actually try it. I'm feeling better BTW, the day or so ago when I started this thread I was in a really "confuzzled" state of mind....But you make me feel a lot better....
As it has been repeated over and over again: Dealing with a practicing Jehovah's Witness is like dealing with a drug addict. Don't become their co-dependent.

SIDE NOTE: Thanks for the list, BTW, I have a cousin who says he is an Atheist, and he is one of the most bigotted people I have ever met. I'm going to send him that list and ask him if he's living by the tenants of his faith LOL. I know quite a few agnostics and atheists, but I've never met one like him. He's so bigotted he hates himself. He's a white, male, police officer in a major city. He had the nerve to call me a racist, how I could never understand the plight of minorities, middle class and white that I am, and that I worship a zombie on Christmas. The baby I'm expecting is half PR. He felt like an ass when I told him, he didn't know that. He didn't know what to say. I'll have to make him the subject of a thread one day.
 
Terry
Terry 6 years ago

Look! Everybody is entitled to REALITY.
The Kingdom Hall denies you that right.
What else are you willing to give up? Freedom to think? Freedom to speak your mind?
What will be left of you worth living inside of?

It isn't as though there are ONLY two choices: Kingdom Hall and sitting home alone.
There is a big, wide, wonderful world full of interesting and intelligent people out there.
WHY NOT HANG AROUND PEOPLE WHO WILL APPRECIATE WHO YOU ARE?
Instead of being something you aren't--find people who think you are wonderful just the way you are?

There are lots of groups that get together; pick a flavor and go!
Book clubs, chess clubs, toastmaster clubs, arts & crafts, biking, running, cooking.....thousands upon thousands of active, interested people.
GO GET EM and let's hear no more of this nonsense about dumbing down your life and become a stick of wood with a face painted on it!!

GET REAL and have a real life.
Real life isn't nearly as depressing as turning into a meat puppet propped up in a folding chair parroting canned comments at a Watchtower study.
 
Michelle365
Michelle365 6 years ago

Confuzzled- I understand relationships are complicated and I understand you have feelings for this man. I really feel for you. However, I was born a JW, lived it until I was 26 and am now sharing my children with my JW ex husband. IT SUCKS ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to tell you to run away and do it quickly. It is not worth sacrificing your whole self for this man or this relationship. It may sound harsh but that is exactly what you will be doing. How long can you be happy like that? How many times have we seen friends changing things about themselves for lovers? How many times have we watched that trainwreck? Please, please start making a break.  It's gonna be hard but you deserve someone that will love you for YOU.
 
A.Fenderson
A.Fenderson 6 years ago


Then I wonder out of pure curiosity, did anybody know of anybody as anti-JW as I developing Stockholm Syndrome?
Well, I can't claim to know you, but the answer is "yes, or something similar." One of the nicest and most lovable brothers in a congro I was in absolutely hated the JW religion for a time prior to having joined himself--it happens. Please don't risk your sanity this way.
 

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i sent my sister inlaw a letter
by looloo 6 years ago 9 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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looloo
looloo 6 years ago

my husband has been so upset At her Ignoring him in the street lately (he was disfellowshipped 15 years ago but , she has only just started ignoring him ,shes 19 and about to get married ) i know she must find it hard to start ignoring him all of a sudden and wonder if its her future husband to be influencing her already or just the fact that she feels "guilty"for talking to her own brother , she walked past with her fiance and they both looked at my husband but looked away when he spotted them , so he can not even be introduced to his future brother in law , like normal people . my husband approached his parents about it and they said it is "her decision" but he is welcome to start coming to their home again as they miss our daughter since he was banned from the home a year ago .i wrote to his sister pointing out there are other girls like her who think they are doing gods will by ignoring relatives who have been disfellowshipped from the "one true religion" and these girls went on to write books when they themselves were eventually disfellowshipped also , escape by carrolyn jessop was one book and another was not without my sister by christina jones , they were brought up in the flds and children of god religion s that they thought were the "truth" and i hope she reads these books as she will be amazed at the similarities to the jw religion . i told her her brother would welcome her with welcome arms if she ever wants to be in his life again , its so sad , i feel helpless .
 
dissed
dissed 6 years ago

Makes no sense to me either. Even from the JW perspective, as long as there is no spiritial sharing, what IS wrong with it? I don't get it.
 
The Oracle
The Oracle 6 years ago

and some people think this is a harmless religion...
very sad.
The day is coming when the cult memberships numbers will begin to shrink.
That will be a day for rejoicing.

The Oracle
 
cantleave
cantleave 6 years ago

The approach you have you have used, is absolutely correct. Identifying cult traits in other religions helps to identify those found in your own.
 
looloo
looloo 6 years ago

i thought so too cantleave as it made the penny drop for me , and the girls who wrote those books were just like my sisterinlaw once ,ignoring fleshly bros and sisters because they thought of them as "apostate" etc and it was only when they experianced injustices themselves that they began to question whether their faith was right , and i do know it bothers her "having" to ignore her brother. she is only 19 and about to get married and leave the area of her birth so she will have a lot of changes to cope with aswell as being a very pretty and very clever girl who could have gone on to university and done so much with her life aswell as being very sporty and her school wanted her to represent her county in athletics but she said no and is a part time cleaner and fulltime pioneer , what a waste !
 
4mylove
4mylove 6 years ago

I have read both books and noticed the similarities also. Both books are great insights to the mindset. I too have a spouse that is distanced from his family due to inactivity. He is not disfellowshiped that we know of, but I'm sure it will be coming some day.
What a terrible "religion" (cult)
4
 
alanv
alanv 6 years ago

I can just about go along with having no contact with someone who is totally anti God and lives a life of sex and drugs etc. But there are very few ex witnesses in that category. The vast majority either before or after disfellowshipping realised the falseness of the Watchtower org, and had no wish to stay in it any longer. I guess we just have to remember the reason why the society keeps to this unchristian way.
It is simply because that it scares the pants off them that current witnesses will start talking to ex members and leave the org. themselves.
 
peaches
peaches 6 years ago

 big hugs for you loo loo...



 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

Shunning a close relative is one way for a JW to get points at the KH. So they ignore a relative to show they are loyal subjects of the WT religion.
 
Gayle
Gayle 6 years ago

Since she herself has been talking with your husband before, it is probably because of pressure from her JW fiance. Maybe in time, she will talk with him again.
The WTS is very insecure about letting its members talk with previous JWs, who have left. And rightfully so, the JW doctrines are shallow and with a little mental stimulation and facts about their obvious "hole-ly/full of holes" doctrines, their members would begin to think.
 

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living apart from the world
by looloo 6 years ago 9 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
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looloo
looloo 6 years ago

"living apart from the world" is a phrase used by jws to proove that they are "different to other faiths and therefore "right" because jesus said true believers would have "no part of the world" but as a study i never thought they did "live apart from the world as they would go out for a drink, to see a show (performed by worldley people ) go on holidays , claim benefits , work with worldley people / go to school etc when you were jws did you actually feel you were no part of the world ? i think the amish and the flds really do "live apart from the world " but your average jw probably hasnt even heard of them !
 
Found Sheep
Found Sheep 6 years ago

i felt like i was not part of the world and the fact that we didn't separate ourselves like that amish (not sure who the flds are) proved that we were not a cult?! now i don't see it that way
 
sspo
sspo 6 years ago

I beleive the Amish use the same scripture for not using electricity or any motorized equipmnent,
so we see the stupidity of all religions in using a scripture, twisting it, interpreting it and manupulating it any way they want
to control and brainwash its members.
 
looloo
looloo 6 years ago

just what i thought too , and its a point ive made in a letter to my inlaws who miss their grandchild (because they banned her disfellowshipped daddy from their home )
 
yknot
yknot 6 years ago

"Not part of the world' ...... varies from congregation to congregation.
And I am sure many other born/raised here will echo that there are some of us who grew up UBER- seperated from the world. I know people who didn't learn their date of birth until 3rd grade!
In my congregation today I am considered a rebel since I will take my kids and others to an occassional movie.
Alcohol is strongly frowned upon due to an incident involving an Elder DUI back in the early 80s (ie those who drink are 'weak' & unfit for privilege)
Bowling is still unofficially banned due to it's alleged immoral influence (read the facility allowed inside smoking 20 years ago)
The only vacations are just full time attendance at assemblies or DC (hotel vs driving back home each day)
Public School is "tolerated" by only 3 families in my KH, the rest are private or homeschooled.
Everything is about dedicating your life to the Borg in a meek, mild and humble manner.
 
Hortenzie
Hortenzie 6 years ago

"Living apart from the world (being physicaly removed from the rest of population)" and "being no part of the world (ideologically)" are two different things. JW, being a proselytizing religion, could not exist away from other people.
 
Heaven
Heaven 6 years ago


"living apart from the world" is a phrase used by jws to proove that they are "different

looloo... I often wondered this myself when I was young. They also use all the 'worldly' professions like doctors, dentists, optometrists, lawyers, etc. etc. I figured if they truly did 'live apart from the world' they would have built their own self-contained community where everything is done by JWs and no one else. Funny thing is, because they discourage higher education, they cannot actually do this. It was just one more piece of hypocrisy that lead me to believe it was all bupkis.
 
poopsiecakes
poopsiecakes 6 years ago

An interesting thing about the Amish is that when a child reaches the age of 16, they're encouraged to explore the world around them. It's amazing that the Amish community not only allows this, but strongly feels that this is a vital rite of passage. The youth are told to go and experiment with anything they want to in the hopes that they get it out of their system and choose to return to the community. Imagine if this policy was among the witnesses??
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 6 years ago

The witlesses never meant that they were to be taken out of the world. Rather, they acted differently. They bother people at 7 AM by knocking on their doors on Saturday and Sunday mornings. They do not do a lot of things that other people do--celebrating holidays or birthdays, gambling, joining the military or donating to regular charity, or getting involved with the community (except for field circus). Very often, it results in a witless that cannot handle the world at large, and will likely be trapped for life.
 
tootie
tootie 6 years ago

I've always always understood that it meant showing that we were no part of this world by not being "overly" involved in the "things of this world". But acknowledging that we still have to live within the world and make use of the government and authorities that have been allowed to be in their "relative positions" by God. Also, if we lived seperate in a JW community, we would not be able to "rub shoulders" with the world and "let our light shine" to be able to spread "The Truth" to others.
 

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who are the worst of the shunners???
by oompa 8 years ago 9 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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oompa
oompa 8 years ago

I explain to some that JW'sare like Mormons, Amish (but don't have a compound), FLDS (they have one too), Hasidic Jews, and I belive even Islamic shun if they do not kill or maim you instead. Islam is a serious big cult imo........But what is the pecking order? And how do these other guys shun compared to JW's?.......add more shunners if you gottem............oompa
 
hillbilly
hillbilly 8 years ago

In my observation of the Amish... at least they are consistent. Lived around a few in N Indiana and parts of MI.
So better is a relative thing.. if you know the rules and you screw up I'd prefer to see the same treatment across the board than the fickle way the dubbies do it.
Hill
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 8 years ago

..The Worst?..First it would be the people who work in Liquor stores..If their busy,you going to wait for service........Next would be the Post Office..Same Story.........Absolute worst..Bartenders at the pub..The next round of Keno is coming up..You`ve got some hot numbers..And..Their mixing Drinks!!..WTF!!....Hey buddy,register my numbers!..I`m about to win $100,000.00!!!...................................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW
 
White Dove
White Dove 8 years ago

The JW's are the most unfair shunners. They must apply a label to you then they can shun you. If someone does the same sin as you but is not labeled, they don't get shunned. It's not fair.
 
 
oompa
oompa 8 years ago

hahah...outlaw...you are JUST a bit off track dammit..............could still use a few more opinions this one you judgemental b@stards...lol...........oompa
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 8 years ago

Oompa..You said we could add shunners to your list..Those are mine..LOL!!........How about when you go to work-out at the gym..And..The buggers won`t let you in!..Because..It`s a "Lady`s Only Gym"..WTF!..???.....Or.....You go to the police station to pay a ticket..You come out of the police station and there`s another frigg`n ticket on your windshield!!..Why?..Because..The parking space you parked in,has a sign that says "Police Parking Only"...........I could go on..................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW
 
oompa
oompa 8 years ago

haha...outlaw...please go find a Mount-HE.....lol.........oompa
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 8 years ago

Oompa..I live in the desert..When it gets hot,it`s frigg`n hot!..The RCMP wear shorts when it`s that hot......AnyWay......I`m going into town and I notice a cop has pulled someone to the side of the road..He`s in shorts,but not just any shorts..He`s wearing his Mountain Bike shorts(They do bike patrols around town)..They are those form fitting ones,Skin tight..Like leotards.......It looks ok if your on a bike,but not coming out of a police car..He looked like one of the "Village People" who just finished a show at a gay bar..LOL!!.......Tights,badge and a Gun..What a picture to behold..LOL!!...............................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW
 
oompa
oompa 8 years ago

oh u so turn me on outlaw...omg.......not village people!!............oompa
I am a sailor!!!!! and could put on the uni....if you pay me!
 
Thechickennest
Thechickennest 8 years ago

I know I am going to get in trouble for this.......it has been my experience that the female witnesses shunners are the worst. I have seen them be very animated in their body language. The men just act like they are intimidated. I know ooompa this isn't the kind of answer you were looking for but, I just had to run off at the head with this.
 

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Is there anyone who has experiences with FLDS?
by DazedAndConfused 8 years ago 2 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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DazedAndConfused
DazedAndConfused 8 years ago

I know this is old news. For that I am sorry. My question is....are there people here "in the know" with this sect? But more than that....do you feel this is any different than what we have gone through as Witnesses?
 
yknot
yknot 8 years ago

This is all I know.....
A couple of friends who live out that way say they have only seen two women in town, both were led around by what they presumed was there husband, the women only spoke in hushed tones and pointed to items they wanted to purchase. Based on reports I assume these women were 'privileged'.
They are also wondering why more Mormons aren't volunteering to act as foster parents.
I think the whole idea of the Texas ranch was about the elite of the FLDS and an attempt at almost total isolation. Why in the hell Jeffs thought he could get away with this is beyond my understanding especially since that part of Texas don't take to kindly or cotton to 'strangeness'....ask any JW in the area for confirmation.
All in all most are pleased to have the place broken up (even though they think the state used a phony phone call) ....but they do admire the FLDS's ability to achieve such self-sustainment and the idea of days when society on large dressed & lived more modestly.
If you are in the area during the Fall, pick up some turkey legs......
I think the main difference is that they have brainwashing in the sense that they really are isolated and can be taken from their homes, and families at the word of church officials. We JW are conditioned to 'self-regulate' by living in the world but not being of the world. Leaving has consequences but no Elder is gonna show up at your door with a paddle for you skipping meetings. No elder is going to kidnap you and take you to Canada as punishment. No Elder is going to handcuff you for walking through town.
I have great sympathy for members. I only hold top officials responsible. The rest of them are like Don's book title "Captives of Concept" a concept that is permeates all of their existance. When you see the R&F FLDS protesting on TV it is no different then a JW defending the blood doctrine.....they are standing up to Satan and his corrupting influences.
 
The Lone Ranger
The Lone Ranger 8 years ago

They believe that ....
◦We will be like God when we die, they believe satans lie to Eve.
◦In different levels of Heaven and that we will be there with our famlies, which is why they make such a big thing of families and family trees.
◦That Jesus went to see the American Indians after he died in Israel, and to preach to the Indians in the same way.
◦That Jesus kingdom will be established in a Major city in North America, ( can't remember which one).
◦That their Book of Morman is the Bible Volume2, which tells about Jesus coming to north America
Regards The Lone Ranger (the real Lone Ranger)
 

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I backed off my anti WTBS talk and God showed up...
by kzjw 8 years ago 13 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower bible
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kzjw
kzjw 8 years ago

I had been doing the "WT is a cult thing" with the wife for three months, while looking for insight on JWD, and a few of you wisely suggested that I just back off before I lose my wife. Didn't think much of it at first, but I relunctantly heeded the advice. Well as soon as I did, the FLDS scandal followed by the other cult guy showed up, and then her favorite show (Law & Order) did 2 cult like storylines that we watched together. I watched her shake her head and mention how stupid she thought the people involved were...and then it hit her! I just leaned back & smiled a little...Did God send her some new light?
It's the same when I attend Sun meetings, a lady had a flat tire after a recent meeting. I came out and saw her calling her son to come fix it. Not one able-bodied brother came to her aid, though a few did say "Oh, I see you've got a flat, sister?" (stupid ass question). So I walked over and offered to help. 5 minutes later, I've got the tire off, pulling the spare outta the trunk, and now, one of the younger brothers offers to help...I guess an PO/elder figured the "heathen" was making them look bad. Turns out the Sister's son was 20 miles away and by the time she called him back to tell him the flat was fixed, he hadn't even left teh house yet! When asked why I would change a tire in a $300 suit, I answered, "It's not my fault, blame it on my mother, she raised me"...i think god was sending a little message that day too...
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 8 years ago

Funny how that happens, huh?
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 8 years ago

So much for "Christian" kindness. The witlesses are more preoccupied in looking presentable for field circus to do anything helpful to others. That is, aside placing Washtowels and Asleeps.
 
lesterd
lesterd 8 years ago

Its always a stranger that tell them something they believe, never their husbands, what do they know?
 
Hortensia
Hortensia 8 years ago

wow - not one of them offered to help their own "sister?" I remember an article many many years ago in the WT that seriously discussed whether or not a JW should stop and help a DF woman with a flat tire. The answer, and I am shocked still, was well maybe, if she was on the way to the KH for the meeting. My god!!!
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

It is great to hear things are starting to click with your wife. As Jesus said "a prophet is not accepted in their own town" - it is very difficult for your wife to accept what you tell her. But now you have planted the seeds she will start to be more aware of what is going on around her and be able to make up her own mind on things.
 
Hope4Others
Hope4Others 8 years ago

The smoother you let things ride with little hints the more she will absorb these things. Being gentle is the key.
Glad things sound as if they are definitely improving and you are really working at it.
Best wishes.
cheer!
hope4others
 
LouBelle
LouBelle 8 years ago

oh that sounds so very familiar - I had to phone my unbelieving dad many times to help me out. In the end I figured I'd start learning how to do that stuff myself because not one of my loving brothers would help me - perhaps I wasn't cute enough for them.
I'm so glad you showed them - big up!
 
Rev1212
Rev1212 8 years ago

Regarding the disfellowshipped sister and the flat tire article -- that was from the August 1, 1974 WT. And the article did say the right thing to do was to help the ds'd sister with her flat tire. The article was about exercising balance regarding disfellowshipped brothers and sisters. And the flat tire scenario was used in the article to show that it is cruel and inhumane to treat disfellowshipped ones badly. Here's the paragraph:
" But consider a less extreme situation. What if a woman who had been disfellowshiped were to attend a congregational meeting and upon leaving the hall found that her car, parked nearby, had developed a flat tire? Should the male members of the congregation, seeing her plight, refuse to aid her, perhaps leaving it up to some worldly person to come along and do so? This too would be needlessly unkind and inhumane. Yet situations just like this have developed, perhaps in all good conscience, yet due to a lack of balance in viewpoint."
I've had my share of car problems and the brothers (and sisters) have always volunteered to help me out -- whether to fix a flat, give me a jump, or give me a ride home.
 
heyfea
heyfea 8 years ago

kzjw
You done a good thing my brother. Hey, by the way, maybe you're one of the few brothers who can actually
afford to buy a $300 dollar suit. LOL

heyfea
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 8 years ago

Sounds like you might have some real progress there, KZ! I hope that it DID hit your wife, the similarities with her own predispositions and beliefs and the ones she was calling "stupid".
And Hortensia... I have a story that rolls right along with your quote, "I remember an article many many years ago in the WT that seriously discussed whether or not a JW should stop and help a DF woman with a flat tire. The answer, and I am shocked still, was well maybe, if she was on the way to the KH for the meeting. My god!!!"
A dear friend of mine was disfellowshipped, and living and working about three miles from the KH. He walked to every single meeting. Did his parents, who conveniently passed his one-room apartment along the way, pick him up? No.
So one day, it was pouring down rain. I was in the car with my parents, and... you guessed it... we pass him, walking to the KH in the pouring rain. In his suit. On a dirt road. (The Kingdom Hall was on a dirt road, I know it sounds like I'm embellishing now, but no, I'm not kidding.)
Every Elder passed him by. Every family member of his passed him by. Every "loving Christian Brother" passed him by. And THAT was my first real taste of the bitterness and insanity I had been in denial of for so many years.
 
Quandry
Quandry 8 years ago

Good for you!!
Once, when visiting my brother in Alabama many years ago, I borrowed his car to go to the KHall. It was, I think, a Vega or some such car. At any rate, I could not get the key out when I parked. I did not know that you had to push or pull something for it to come out. So I went into the Hall, met a couple of people, and told them my problem. The first woman said she didn't know anything about cars, but introduced me to a "brother" who couldn't be bothered getting up out of his chair. He just told me to leave the key in it, that it would be O.K. in the parking lot.
I left the key in the car, feeling terrible for the whole meeting. What if someone stole the car? I got out of there after the meeting in a hurry, anxious to return the car to my brother, feeling down because no one seemed to care. So much for southern hospitality in the KHall.
 
poppers
poppers 8 years ago

"But consider a less extreme situation. What if a woman who had been disfellowshiped were to attend a congregational meeting and upon leaving the hall found that her car, parked nearby, had developed a flat tire? Should the male members of the congregation, seeing her plight, refuse to aid her, perhaps leaving it up to some worldly person to come along and do so? This too would be needlessly unkind and inhumane. Yet situations just like this have developed, perhaps in all good conscience, yet due to a lack of balance in viewpoint."
Yeah, change her tire when she's parked near the KH so they don't make themselves look bad. If they came across someone who was in a similar situation but on a public street nowhere near the KH would there be the same reaction, or if they knew she hadn't just been to a meeting? The human response is to help someone in need no matter who they are, but that gets trumped by religious doctrine in most instances in witness life.
 
real one
real one 8 years ago

wow - not one of them offered to help their own "sister?" I remember an article many many years ago in the WT that seriously discussed whether or not a JW should stop and help a DF woman with a flat tire. The answer, and I am shocked still, was well maybe, if she was on the way to the KH for the meeting. My god!!! This is an outrage! Would Jesus help? I would say yes so what makes them better than Jesus? not a thing! This makes me so angry!
 

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I need a little help again…I think I’m dying
by seven006 8 years ago 23 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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seven006
seven006 8 years ago

The “I think I’m dieing” part is for all the new bees. All the old bees know I’m rarely ever serious. But, as long as you have read this far…..
For quite a while now I have been reading a few of the ex-Scientologist and ex-Mormon discussion boards. For a month or so I have been posting on the postmormon.org board.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/7107/
I am doing this in an effort to better understanding the similarities between the three ex-factor groups as well as the similarities in the programming and to-die-for convictions between the three American made cult like minority religions they and we all left.
In a simi-quid-pro-quo scenario I am answering questions about the JW teachings and asking them questions about the Mormon church. I am not interest in dogma specific questions (I’m not concerned with comparisons of who believed the stupidest line of sheep shit) but more about the style of teaching/indoctrination/programming that absolutely made them feel at one time that they had (as they call it) “The Truth”(sound familiar?)about the “one and only TRUE religion on the face of the earth”.
You can cut and paste the following link to see my post about the JW birthday ban. They wanted to know.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/7016/
Like the post I made about birthdays, I need a little “official scripture” help about the blood ban scripture amalgamations. Specifically the “do not eat the blood because it holds the life” one after Noah Flintstone parked his zoo ship on top of a mountain.
I have been out for so long I am fortunate enough to have most all of that crap out of my memory. That, and I have not owned a bible or had one in my house for over 20 years.
So, if someone can help me out with the Watchtower official scripture and or scriptures (I forget) I will greatly appreciate it. Inquiring ex-Mormon minds want to know.
I will post it on the post-Mormon board a few days after they are all done talking about the FLDS temple bust.
Thank you,
Dave
 
DJK
DJK 8 years ago

You might find this very helpful.
http://www.ajwrb.org/bible/mosaic.shtml
 
jgnat
jgnat 8 years ago

Here's a fine amalgam of scriptures, straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/hb/index.htm?article=article_07.htm
 
DJK
DJK 8 years ago

Lev 17:11. The life of the sacrifice was accepted for the life of the sinner. Blood must not be looked upon as a common thing, but must be poured out before the Lord.
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

DJK,
Thank you for the link. I didn’t remember the other scriptures that were posted on that link. That will help. I appreciate it.
The ex-Mormons will appreciate the information too, they all think the JW’s are all a bunch of brainwashed sock puppets, just like the Mormons are. The ex-Scientologist won’t give a whatever.
Dave
 
Vinny
Vinny 8 years ago

I filmed a photography show back in Oct 06. The host of the show along with his his son (also his filming assistant) are devout Mormons. The Father is also a newly appointed Bishop (like a D.O. in JW-land).












I also truly believe that Christ's gospel has been restored to the earth today along with the ministering of Angels, the priesthood authority of God and the calling of modern day prophets to guide his children on the earth. Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept anything that is spoken over the pulpit in our meetings. Rather, we are all expected to learn of their truth for ourselves by studying and ultimately praying for light and knowledge. And they do come.".....that said, the invitation is still simply "come and see." I would encourage you to go to a church meeting and see what it's like for yourself. I'd also encourage you to meet with the missionaries and discuss with them without the limitations of e-mail. Would you be willing to do either of these things? Let me know, and I can arrange for the missionaries to contact you."

**** Sounds a little too familiar...

But such beliefs are far more common than I realized when I was a JW. Muslims believe they are the true faith. As does the Pope, Seventh Day Adventists and many more including JW's.

Which is why I consider myself spiritual today, but not religious.

Nonetheless, the similarities of Mormons and JW's believing they are the "One True Faith", along with their determination to push those views on others were quite striking.
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

J, thank you too. Dave
 
reneeisorym
reneeisorym 8 years ago

I'm not adding much to what you asked but I had a comment to make:
I'm glad you're doing that. Keep it up.
 
Vinny
Vinny 8 years ago

PS- If you want to pull our leg and get extra attention with the "dying" thing in your subject title... at least spell it right.
: )
 
SPAZnik
SPAZnik 8 years ago

Lovely thread seven006. Appreciate all your efforts. Fascinating replies Vinny. Love the electric socket TWICE analogy. (I'm glad seven006 misspelled dying, it made it more tongue in cheek - LOL) :smile:
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

I tried to answer that question once....
http://www.ajwrb.org/history/index.shtml#evolution
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

Vinny,
You are right. The Mormons and the JW’s are very much alike. Not at all in their dogma but more in the programming techniques used to infuse such garbage into the minds of the bungled and botched. The good old free bible study trick.
Just like the JW’s, it is a totalitarian existence where no one will ever completely measure up, never question authority, and the rank and file follower knows little to nothing about their “real” history. Just the twisted and flip flopped BS from their PR department.
Just like the JWs, the Mormons are totally unreceptive and blinded to the overwhelming volumes of evidence that keeps piling up that completely shows the storybook of Mormon written by the snake oil salesman Joseph Smith to be absolute and totally made up bullshit.
The evidence exposing the book of Mormon SS (sheep shit) is even more overwhelming and easier to expose than the JW SS.
I’m jealous. They at least got to go to college!
Dave
 
DJK
DJK 8 years ago

The Mormons and the JW’s are very much alike.
Seven, does that mean they believe in the talking snake?
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

Vinny, You are right. I spellded it all wrongly did't I? Good catch! Did you catch any more?
Did it get your attention beyond the obvious spelling mistake?
Reneeisorym and SPAZnik, Thank you. I enjoy posting there and getting to know them. They are great people. Very much like the group here but without all Christian vs. Atheist or dirt vs. monkey flame throwing.
Next I move to posting on “Operation Clambake” (the ex-scientologist DB). That’s a little more self concerning. Those who openly oppose Scientology keep ending up mysteriously suasided.
TD
Thank you for your link. I think instead of writing something in the sarcastic manner I usually do to express my contempt for the Printing Company’s bull shit, I’ll just say a little bit first, give credit where credit is due and post your link. Thanks.
Dave
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

DJK,

“Seven, does that mean they believe in the talking snake?”
Yes they do, but the snake did his talking right here in the good old US states of America (I just loved miss teen South Carolina). It’s where the Garden of Eden actually was.
It’s true. That’s what Joseph Smith said. Here in America. Honest!I think he did a little bibble plagiarizing in the Book of Mormon.
Did you catch Bill Maher’s reference to the “talking snake” on Friday night during his last Real Time with Bill Maher show on HBO?
It really cracked me up.
 
DJK
DJK 8 years ago

Did you catch Bill Maher’s reference to the “talking snake” on Friday night during his last Real Time with Bill Maher show on HBO?
Yes! I loved it!!! That's where I stole the phrase.
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

“Yes! I loved it!!! That's where I stole the phrase”.




I take you never read the story I posted about my two week consulting trip to Bethel did you? Hearing the term “talking snake” and “a naked lady eating a piece of fruit” said out loud changed my life.
Sometimes I think Bill Maher stole my brain. I love the guy.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

I am intrigued by the similarities as well. Here is a bit of info on the 3 main lines of reasoning and why it is incorrect. 1. Noah • Genesis 9:4 “Only flesh with its soul-its blood-YOU must not eat.” The command here does not forbid eating blood, but rather eating animals strangled. Noah was instructed to show respect for the life of the animal killed. 2. Mosaic Law • Leviticus 17:10 “And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.” The Mosaic Law does not apply since the death of Jesus. Paul warns against people that attempt to still apply to enforce the Mosaic Law at Paul warned against those that revert to the Mosaic Law at 2 Corinthians 3:14-15 “But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ. In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts.” 3. Acts 15 & 21 • At Acts it states to abstain from blood, so this may appear to apply to blood transfusions Acts 15:19-20 “Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.” Acts 21:25 “As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication.” As with most Christian religions, for many decades the Watchtower recognised that this passage only applied to first century congregations with a mix of Gentiles and Judaizers, in order to prevent stumbing. Paul showed that these practices are neither wrong nor binding. At 1 Corinthians 8:4-13 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33 Paul specifically states that eating food sacrificed to idols is not wrong, unless it would “make my brother stumble.” Jesus had likewise said, “Not what enters into [his] mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man.” (Matthew 15:11) The decree at Acts applied to early, mixed Christian congregations congregations for the case of stumbling, not because blood use was wrong.
 
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

Seven006, you might want to show them, (Mormons) this video,

 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

I am bumping this thread out of respect for seven006. I think that at least once a year somebody should look up that "Freddy Brown Shoes" story about Bethel and the airbrush class for all those who came here new and have not had a chance to read it.
Maybe I will get up off my lazy butt and hunt it down for a repost - if nobody beats me to it.
Respectfully, James
 

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I need a little help again…I think I’m dying
by seven006 8 years ago 23 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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sacolton
sacolton 8 years ago

Fortunately, the JWs don't baptise the dead. That shit wouldn't fly with me. I have a Mormon friend who has baptised a dead woman. They have a pool that is used to lay (float) the body in and they get into the pool and perform their ritual. It's disgusting.
 
Layla33
Layla33 8 years ago

I think you are doing a great thing, showing how they are connected. I too believe that a lot of these "religions" are arms of the same tree. I haven't done a lot of research on it, but I believe the founders and those at the very top are very connected - again, nothing I can prove because I haven't spent that much time reading on it. I look forward to reading your research.
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 8 years ago

Hiya Dave. Since this thread is a month old, don't know if you're still around or not but I just wanted to give you a big howdy.
Nina sends her love.

Chris
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

I noticed that Scientology was mentioned in the O.P., but the thread then moved a little more toward ex-Mormonism.
Some might be interested to know that I have been in close contact with an ex-Scientologist and we have compared notes on what it is like to escape from our respective cult traps.
My friend is very much like some ex-JW apologists - you know, the ones who think that probably C.T.Russell had a pretty good handle on the truth, but that Rutherford and the later presidents went on to spoil a good thing. Richard was actually an engine man on that ex-navy minesweeper the Apollo that L.Ron Hubbard used to sail around on outside the 12 mile limit to keep away from the I.R.S. He got mad at them because L. Ron would not give him any personal attention; realization came that he was just like a low Bethelite - there to clean the bilge and oil the pumps - but not to discuss Scientology with the master.
Scientology has a number of interesting parallels with Witnessology. Paranoia of all else in the world is one strong similarity. (JW hate blood, used to have vaccinations, CST hates psychology, antidepressant drugs, etc. in a similar way).
Scientology has a hatred or at least a mistrust of governmental authority. They have repeatedly come under fire for tax evasion and violation of member's civil rights.
Scientology has a well-devoloped (if crazily developed) language all of their own. (sound familiar?) E-meter, engrams, thetans, "lumbosis" (an L.RonHubbard made-up name for most any generic form of disease), Dianetics, etc. They use it to identify and rank themselves.
Scientology is obsessed with spying on their own members - especially if such are suspected of any disloyalty.
Scientology originally had fairly independent congregations (much like the old CTR "companies" with "elected elders"). This was brutally institutionalized by the central organization when suspicions rose that they were not under enough control. Scientology is famous for pretending to be some other generic organization when they want to recruit members, buy land, or take over a small town government. Scientologic Strategy?
Scientology has suffered the death of their leader and founder (sci-fi author L.RonHubbard) and saw his chosen successors taken over by a palace coup by a scheming but relatively low-level follower who sneaked himself into a position of power. It has been said that nothing creatively worthwhiloe (in Scientology terms, at least) has been written or done since the leadership change.
Scientology has their Brooklyn Bethel and Kingdom Farm - Clearwater, Florida, plus ranches out in the California desert.
JWs had Michael Jackson and Prince - Scientology has (notably) Tom Cruise and John Travolta.
Yes, it is pretty creepy stuff, and should be awfully familiar to ex-witnesses. It speaks soundly to the ex-witness to really let go of all the WT load and free yourself from it completely.
James
 

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Topic Summary
the i think im dieing part is for all the new bees.
all the old bees know im rarely ever serious.
but, as long as you have read this far.. .



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did anyone read about cults when a jw and think oh that sounds familiar?
by looloo 8 years ago 6 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower scandals
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looloo
looloo 8 years ago

i have recently read escape by a caroline jessop , about a flds lady that got away and when i was reading things she used to believe , that sounded like jw kind of stuff i wondered if a jw read it they may question what they believe , and could read it guilt free because i presume it would not be classed as apostate as it is critical of another relgion also another book about 3 sisters that left the children of god cult had similarities with jws , maybe your relatives that wont even look at apostate stuff would read these type of books .
 
White Dove
White Dove 8 years ago

That sounds interesting.
 
journey-on
journey-on 8 years ago

In all honesty, looloo, I never equated anything negative with my religion. We were the exception to the rule ALWAYS!
I heard the accusations that JWs are a cult with all the attending reasons to prove it, but I always just shook my head
at their inability to comprehend our Truth and considered the accusers to be mislead and blinded by Satan.
 
choosing life
choosing life 8 years ago

Sounds like a good book. I remember the watchtower bringing up why they were not a cult while I was still in. I didn't read much about cults then, but in the back of my mind I wondered about some of their tactics.
I have read Steve Hassan's Combatting Cult Mind Control now and the jws do qualify for the cult position. Anything along that line that you can get a jw to read is good for opening a crack in the mind control.
 
Gregor
Gregor 8 years ago

Sort of. It was November 1978. I had resigned as an elder and was very vulnerable to doubts. Then the Jonestown massacre/suicide exploded all over the news. Pure horror... and then I started making mental connections....
 
GermanXJW
GermanXJW 8 years ago

The New Apostolic Church is quite big in Germany. There was a time when they taught that the end of the world would come within the lifetime of their chief apostle. Of course, he died and nothing happened. Some JW made fun of it and I said that it is quite similar to our "Generation of 1914"-tenet. I was already in critical mood back then.
 
troubled mind
troubled mind 8 years ago

I didn't read anything about cults when I was a witness .
However a Dr Phil show about two girls raised in a cult had a huge effect on me .These girls had terrible fear instilled to them that if they left the cult they would lose all family and be shunned . Just like witnesses they felt if they left they would die at Armagedon in total rejection from God . Dr Phil explained mind control to them and introduced Steve Hussan (sp?) After seeing so many similarities between their fears ,and my own it gave me the courage to look into websites on mind control and ultimately lead me here .
 

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Ideas to help w/ Still-believing mates
by FreeWilly 8 years ago 16 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw experiences
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FreeWilly
FreeWilly 8 years ago

I've been reading alot of posts about spouses trying to get through to their mates still in Dubville - with mixed results. It seems to go like this: After some internal questioning the Exiting mate shares what they learn with the StillaDub mate. At first the StillaDub mate may be receptive and even share some of their own doubts and unresolved questions. But once the Stilladub mate realizes the situation may cause seious changes they become closed, exasperated and wished the whole thing went away. Then it becomes hard to talk to them about anything JW related.
I've read a couple of books that I think would really help couples struggling in this way. They don't even touch upon JW's. They both have to do with a fundementalist sect of Mormonism (FLDS). It seems to me to be a non threatening way to show how an insular controlling religion manipulates and controls it's followers stealing their lives away. They use the same playbook as the Society - information control, disfellowshipping, constant fear of Armageddon, warped reasoning etc. I think it would help keep the StillaDub mate engaged without them becoming overly defensive.
Anyway the books are "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop and "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer. Me and my fiance have read these together and often found ourselves how anyone can be so obviosly duped.
Any other ideas?
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 8 years ago

My wife will not view any anti-cult literature or videos.
If a TV program or news item comes on, she heads for the shower or bed.
She claims that Apostates of ANY religion will only tell you the bad stuff about that religion and are not to be trusted. If you really want to know what that religion teaches you have to get your information from them, not from their disaffected members.

She is an Apostate Anglican
Cheers
Chris
 
MissingLink
MissingLink 8 years ago

I've been reading alot of posts about spouses trying to get through to their mates still in Dubville - with mixed results. It seems to go like this: After some internal questioning the Exiting mate shares what they learn with the StillaDub mate. At first the StillaDub mate may be receptive and even share some of their own doubts and unresolved questions. But once the Stilladub mate realizes the situation may cause seious changes they become closed, exasperated and wished the whole thing went away. Then it becomes hard to talk to them about anything JW related.
Very insightfull FreeWilly. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 8 years ago

My wife will not view any anti-cult literature or videos.
Same here. My wife is deeply afraid of the word "cult" and anything to do with it.
Hmmmm...... I wonder why that is?
I have made great strides just by waiting for the opportune moments to slip in my
comments and have discussions with my wife. As time goes on, the moments
arise less and less often. But I feel that my wife is slightly fading on her own.
She hopes I don't notice, but she either misses meetings or service, or is
extremely late often. Just this week, she left the house maybe 5 minutes before
the meeting would start, and the trip is close to 30 minutes (or more in this weather).
 
Hope4Others
Hope4Others 8 years ago

Stick to watchtower quotes,and old publications to show where there were drastic shifts in teachings. Let the watchtower speak not you. This is what my husband did to me. At first just
the comments would make me boil, until I actually saw it in print. Some call it a blinking light or new light. I prefer to call it a resurrected light. What common sense tells us one can
teach I thing and then change back to the original teaching. Sometimes there have been up to 6 times they have changed. Example the resurrection of Sodom & Gomorrah.
We were taught back then to be like Jah in all his ways. But with Jah there is no variation even with the turning of a shadow."James 1:17". (heb 13:8 says "Jesus Christ is the SAME
yesterday and today, and forever." Doesn't sound like he's changing to much... the scripture in prov 4:18 in full context is a father talking to his son about our human experience our
knowledge getting brighter and brighter. But whom would it be more important to imitate Jah,Christ,or a young inexperienced son? It takes time, so use the bible, old literature anything
but your personal opinion and those branded as "Apostates". Eventually you will be able to slip in quotes from the "Crisis book by Franz. The fact she's starting to be late and miss a
meeting shows she has doubts or is growing weary. There is hope.

Hope4Others
 
Open mind
Open mind 8 years ago

I think the F&D Slave has provided the answer already.
Gradualism. Gradualism. Gradualism.
At least that's what I'm trying.
I'll be sure to let you know if it ever actually works.
OM
 
AlyMC
AlyMC 8 years ago

I suppose you can say that I won my spouse over "without a word". I guess that one came back to bite them in the ass.
 On principle I completely agree, at least in my experience, subtle conversations about how the JW life/org tends to completely control and manipulate to the point of loosing free will and identity went a long way with my husband. He wasn't interested in doctrinal research or arguments, but he really related to these concepts.
 
Hope4Others
Hope4Others 8 years ago

By the way...doing more fun things together causes missed meetings..perferably out of town. It gets easier after that to miss them. Show her that you have withdrawn from the KH not her.
Hope4Others
 
allreadygone
allreadygone 8 years ago

Hope4others Nice post. I could not agree more. My wife is hanging on to the Borg. like an old security blanket. She thinks that outside the Borg. everyone is a liar or an adulterer. So when I show her quotes from the literature that are proven lies she is speechless. Gone
 
Homerovah the Almighty
Homerovah the Almighty 8 years ago

I think gathering ever bit of information about its leaders and developers is a good positive approach,
And perhaps not getting too involved with any doctrinal changes, the reason being is they have been programed to receive
any changes as a working process of new light so trying to imply any sense of reasoning becomes ineffective and futile.
For example you could show this video on you-tube, which exposes the obvious corruption and exploitation by its leaders
The truth has always been bent and twisted by these guys with the intension of increasing their literature sales.
Its hard to phantom why would God choose crooked lawyers and businessmen to front and take control of his earthly organization.
Intelligence should kick in sooner or later http://ca.&feature=related
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

This mignt not be exactly what you're looking for:
I've gradually come to the conclusion that its a mistake to attack a believing mate's religious beliefs in any way. The frontal assault must come from within.
Instead, try to promote a more realistic view of the world itself. Ultimately, all religious beliefs are built upon more basic beliefs, presuppositions and assumptions The JW worldview is unrealistic and facile in so many ways that the opportunities for this are endless once you start looking.

For example, my wife and I were watching the movie, "March of the Penguins" For those who haven't seen this movie, it basically covers a year in the life of emperor penguins, especially the incubation of eggs and rearing of chicks. About three-quarters of the way through the movie, my wife says, "That's just amazing" and I reply, "And they were created that way right from the beginning...."
The problem here is if the emperor penguin was originally created for an antarctic climate than the JW notion of the entire earth being semi-tropical paradise is hogwash, but if the emperor penguin was not originally created for an antarctic climate than the JW notion of every species being individually created is hogwash. Either way, part of the JW worldview is hogwash. Of course, neither conclusion will cause one to leave the JW's and that's not the point. The point is to get them comfortable with the idea of thinking, questioning and looking beyond the facile.
In no particular order, these are a few things that challenge the JW worldview in non-threatening ways: (I'm sure others could add to this list)

The Schwarzenegger movie, "The Sixth Day" graphically shows that re-creating a person and restoring their memories (JW resurrection?) is not quite the same thing as bringing the original back. (e.g. What happens if this is done while you're still alive?)
Any boat, larger than a canoe leaks. The Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria were relatively small ships (The held 20, 26 and 40 people respectively) yet they each required a bilge pump. The larger the ship, the larger the pump. Truly large ships (Noah's Ark?) have to be pumped by motors.
No member of the cat family can synthesize taurine, an essential amino acid. Taurine is not found in plants, it is only found in meat.
The interpretation of the Bible books, Daniel and Revelation has a long and colorful history going back over a thousand years. Many of these interpreters have taken an allegorical, egocentric view of these books, interpreting them in ways that would have been alien to original author or authors. (Revelation, Its Grand Climax?) These type of interpretations quickly become outdated and laughable. (The Finished Mystery?)
Some of the pyramids are older than the JW date for Noah's Flood. (Because pyramids aligned to the cardinal points, the original building date can be calculated accurately since the rate of the earth's axial precession is known.)
People are inherently unable to be rational when their religious beliefs are challenged. In line with your reading recommendations, the hatemail that Mormon "Apostates" like Jerald and Sandra Tanner have recieved is a non-threatening way to get this point across. (JW's believe that people are capable of being rational and in fact, God judges them on this basis. That's the whole premise behind parallels between themselves and "The Watchman")
 
Homerovah the Almighty
Homerovah the Almighty 8 years ago

That is a good idea TD I've tried a positive rational suggestion with my jw sister for example noting the fact the most of the dinosaurs were carnivorous
and pointed out why did god make these animals like that ?
There many ways and options you can try and use without being overly offensive.
The sad and unfortunate part is you can see them getting unbalanced and nervous when you do point out ideas which are directly against
their established beliefs so do have to be tactful.
 
bite me
bite me 8 years ago

It is really nice to see that I am not the only one in this situation.
 
Hermano
Hermano 8 years ago

Good thread. Many good suggestions. My wife and I watched a program about the Waco incident, and I could tell it made her think a little bit, because the people inside the complex really beleived they had The Truth.
 
llbh
llbh 8 years ago

Thanks for posts all i am in the same situation with fervent JW wife so the suggestions were welcome
David
 
jgnat
jgnat 8 years ago

I follow Steve Hassan's approach, assuming that there are two personalities trapped inside my JW husband. There's his natural self and his cult-self. I do my best not to alarm the cult-self (that makes him come roaring to the fore), and include many activities that bring out the natural man.
Probably the biggest newbie mistake is to broadside the cultist with your new information. This can literally set you back years, as you and all your information immediately becomes suspect.
It's gotten to the point where I can spot the difference between the two personalities. I then tailor my conversation depending on "who" I am talking to. I bring out my doubts only to the natural man. For him to stew over in private.
I'm collecting success stories from the board as well, and the progression seems to be something like this. One partner "wakes up". He does his research and sets on a deliberate plan of progressive information to his partner. He might leave information out for her to find, for instance, without confronting her directly. When she first starts to wonder if he's still in the "truth" he reassures her that his feelings for her have not changed. She's been secretly doubting for a while, so she is somewhat receptive. Fearfully at first, she looks a few things over. The light comes on, and she devours the information. Miffed, she asks him why he took so long to share? They both move out of town and fade out of sight of the local congregation.
Here's an example of a successful "outing" of an entire family, on Randy's site: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm
 
FreeWilly
FreeWilly 8 years ago

My wife and I watched a program about the Waco incident, and I could tell it made her think a little bit
That's exactly the effect reading the Books about these Mormon sects had.
Researching Mormonism is what initially helped me "wake up". The roots of their beliefs were so whacky (to me) that I really tried to understand how anyone could truly cling to them. The exercise in critical thinking inevitably turned inward. The rest is history.
 

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THE PARADOX OF SPARLOCK
by cyberjesus 4 years ago 12 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
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cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

Some people are mad with the production of the latest WT DVD for children... I am quite happy with it
With the creation of that character the WT has created a big paradox that they cant refute as old light since its new.. lets look at the following scenarios:
Since one of the messages on that cartoon is to tell JWs that Toys that involve magic come from Satan and God hates that....therefore the solution is to throw Sparlock to the trash bin.... that is what you do with those toys, being smurfs, pokemon sparlock etc....
1) what if the kid had a print out of pokemon hanging on his wall? trash it
2) what if the kid has a dvd of the smurf? trash it.
3) what if the kid has a toy of Sparlock? trash it
4) what if the kid has a DVD of Sparlock.... exactly. If Sparlock is bad then they must trash it even if its on dvd... except that the dvd is made by the WT.
Can kids print out pictures of Sparlock? can they own the DVD? not according to the DVD therefore they have to trash the WT dvd

Scenario 2:
Caleb: Mom why does Jehovah hate Sparlock?
Mom: Cuz he does little bit of Magic, and Jehova hates magic
Caleb: Mom who created Sparlock? .... uh! the WT, therefore Jehovah.

Scenario 3:
The Wt decides to sue someone who uses Sparlock... what grounds? copyright infringements... which in essence they claim they created sparlock and they own the rights of distribution... which is saying they are they creators of a Magical Warrior who Jehovah hates.... A law suit is their legal acknowledgement that they promote Magic and War... This is a big issue. Because if they try to get away with it by saying its only a toy and not real.... then thats the same answer a kid can give when playing with it.. therefore rendereing the DVD useless..

By creating a toy that does magic and condemning it.. they are condemning their own creation. Do you see the problem. They cant get out of it.

Kids can now officially play with Sparlock because it was created by the WT..... What if a kid wears a tshirt of Sparlock to the meeting? Can the elders say anything? ..... the WT created the character.

thanks WT for Sparlock
 
sd-7
sd-7 4 years ago

Is this one of those arguments that makes Landru explode on 'Star Trek'? 'Cause it sounds like it.
--sd-7
 
DT
DT 4 years ago

I've been thinking about that. The Watchtower made a fictional film that features a warrior wizard, but it's OK because he is defeated in the end. The same is true of many films that feature things that Jehovah's Witnesses don't like. Does this make them OK? For example, is a film that has a witch OK if she eventually gets defeated?
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

Yes Sparlock is the first Magic toy created by Jehovah himself.. and this is not sarcasm. Is part of the propper food given by th GB.
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

Not only the film but the character itself. they own copyrights to Sparlock which is the same as owning rights to pokemon.
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

Can a kid play with a Toy of Moses and his magic wand? or Sampson the magic hair warrior?
 
CaptainSchmideo
CaptainSchmideo 4 years ago

If I was brave enough, I would call Brooklyn and ask to speak to someone in licensing, and propose a manufacturing deal for a Sparlock action figure.
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 4 years ago

hey someone get me a ph#. I will
 
Amelia Ashton
Amelia Ashton 4 years ago


Can a kid play with a Toy of Moses and his magic wand? or Sampson the magic hair warrior?
I think they can. I used to re-enact Bible stories with my girls as part of their Bible Study.
 
Yan Bibiyan
Yan Bibiyan 4 years ago


What if a kid wears a tshirt of Sparlock to the meeting? Can the elders say anything? ..... the WT created the character

I want a video of that precious moment.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Don't you love it when people dig themselves a hole....
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

in another thread someone said that the difference from Magic vs Miracle is if the one who did it had to do with God. Sooo This little fellow created by Jehovah/GB/WT/Writter/Computer Animators actually performs miracles not Magic and therefore is really not bad.
Take that WT!
 
oompa
oompa 4 years ago

sorry but them wearing tees or playing with the toy aint happenin....i like your thinking process though...and that should scare the hell out of you cyber...WT also INVENTED the torture stake but you dont see them wearing it either....oompa
i am getting a shirt and my new nc tag is SPARLCK....say i didnt...we can only get seven letters here dammit
 

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Sparlock: The Sociology of the former Jehovah’s Witness community
by Las Malvinas son Argentinas 4 years ago 33 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Las Malvinas son Argentinas
Las Malvinas son Argentinas 4 years ago

The W atchtower Bible and Tract Society has unwittingly unleashed quite a viral sensation within the ranks of its former members. To summarise what has happened so far: - “Become Jehovah’s Friend” DVD is released. It is an animated feature aimed at children with modern computerised graphics. - The antagonist of the relatively brief cartoon is a self-described “warrior wizard” by the name of ‘Sparlock’ which was obtained by ‘Caleb’, the young subject of this material. - The unnamed mother in this DVD guilt-trips young Caleb into disposing of his Sparlock toy. - The video goes viral within the ex-JW community, with youtube videos being posted of the video. The WTBTS Society claims copyright violations and the videos are removed by youtube almost as fast as they are posted. - Sparlock is satirised both on ex-JW forums and spoof videos are posted on youtube. The “Become Jehovah’s Friend” DVD release is notable due to it being the first animated feature released by the WTBTS. It s content is correctly seen by many as bringing shame and guilt upon young Witnesses by forcing them to eschew ‘worldly’ influences. Sparlock seems to be a composite character stemming from the Smurfs in the 80’s, Pokémon in the 90’s, Harry Potter in the 00’s, and the vampire craze of Twilight and True Blood movies and serials of the new decade. Put simply, Sparlock is the WTBTS’s composite answer to these sinful pleasures. I have shown the Sparlock online videos to non-JW friends with always the same result. 'How stupid!' I agree with the notion that you cannot fully understand the surreal nature of the Sparlock phenomenon without being fully inside the exclusive circle of the Jehovah’s Witnesses at one point or another in your life. It’s an inside joke; something which perhaps is not meant to be completely understood outside of this isolated universe. With that said, why the extensive overkill and analyses of what is at heart a facile tool of an intellectually bankrupt and widely discredited American religion? Is this some sort of penultimate endeavour that this loosely organised movement we belong to has built up to? Unrelenting satire of a passing reference and teaching tool in a 15 minute religious and indoctrination DVD? I do admit to some sense of schadenfreude in regards to a religion that has had such a negative effect on my life and which has so literally rejected and shunned me. But the feeling lasted for but 5 minutes upon my consciousness. The stark reality of my own existence and life’s ever present challenges quickly overshadows any thoughts of Sparlock. I’d much rather discuss the background and modus operandi  of the organisation which conceived of this tool designed for simple minds, rather than the tool itself. Do they really think their brethren are this provincially minded and dim-witted to accept this lesson precisely as taught? Have we as former members been so psychologically damaged that all we can think about is ridiculing the messenger rather than the overall message? The message has been made abundantly clear. Sparlock could just have as easily been a metaphor for higher education or extracurricular activity that to WTBTS so despises. Nothing distresses me more when I think about what I just came out of. It lies in direct contradiction of basic human principles and humanity in general. When I read about how this movement we once belonged to sprang originally out of the fantasies of a Pennsylvanian eccentric, refined by a sexually deprived and eternally bitter Missourian, and theologically defined by an awkward Kentuckian, it surprises me to no great length. The FDS principle was thus founded and carefully passed down to what is known today as the Governing Body. Anthony Morris III is but one of seven. Sparlock most likely originated in the extremely limited and doctrinally challenged mental thought processes of one of the Society’s anonymous writers. Sparlock in of itself is of no great consequence. The sub-culture that produced such a dull tool for the masses is of more concern to me. They can release more and more of this drivel, and it will make little further impression upon me. This religion is a lie, and is based upon faulty predictions and prophecy. The indoctrination process is as extensive as it is pervading. It is mankind’s own viral infection. We are all the amputated limbs of such a diseased body. Karl Marx is famous for saying that religion is the opium of the people. I say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is the HIV virus of modern times. It invades and violates the safety and security of the human family. It then weakens the immune system to the point of complete mental breakdown and mindless conformity. We all suffer from it from our own unique backgrounds and experiences. As much as we would like to think we are truly free, there is always the burden of our past lives and connections to this religion. Sparlock is a symptom. The JW disease is pervasive and ever present. Emilie
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

I think we all know that. Humor and satire are ways of dealing with anger and hurt. Sparlock is a symbol---especially poignant for those that grew up in the cult and represents so many things that were taken from then in childhood.
I can't for the life of me understand why this would be a problem for anybody. Sparlock is merely a symbol---big deal. We like symbols. Humans are symbolic thinkers.
NC
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


With that said, why the extensive overkill and analyses of what is at heart a facile tool of an intellectually bankrupt and widely discredited American religion?
I think you answered your own question. It is facile but it is also a symptom of harmful regime that broke many of our most precious relationships and blighted our childhood.
Have we as former members been so psychologically damaged that all we can think about is ridiculing the messenger rather than the overall message?
To mock their blatant stupidity is cathartic. It doesn't mean we aren't also more concerned about " The stark reality of my (our) existence and life’s ever present challenges".
Well written piece by the way.
 
sd-7
sd-7 4 years ago

Excellent points, Emilie. And I think what you said is kind of the whole point of this Sparlock fixation--it has become a sort of tangible symbol of everything, top to bottom, that the Watchtower Society has made us 'throw in the garbage' for the sake of obeying its rules. All the friendships, scholarships, better jobs, movies, books, music, clothes, facial hair, wow, they controlled a LOT of things about our personal lives. The manipulation present in that very brief video just summed it all up, the entire JW experience.
You could say it was a textbook in short form on how to erase the authentic person and replace him with the cult persona.
Personally, it's just more fun to lampoon/satirize/etc. Sparlock because it's a cartoon, and because MILLIONS of people will actually take this as the gospel truth. It's two sides of a coin--it's fun to toy with, but also horrifying. In my case, I would say that I laugh to keep from crying.
To be sure, there are bigger issues to address, but Sparlock simplifies them in one adorable purple toy. That's my take.
--sd-7
 
cedars
cedars 4 years ago


We are all the amputated limbs of such a diseased body.
Speak for yourself!
Personally, I think you're reading too much into it. Sparlock-mania will come and go. Let us have our fun.
It's not everyday the Society drops the ball so dramatically.

Cedars
 
blond-moment
blond-moment 4 years ago

As was pointed out by another poster on this site, we are ourselves were Sparlock. How easily our families threw us out with the garbage because the WT told them "Jehovah hates them"
Yes, he is a symbol for many different things, for many of us.
 
snakeface
snakeface 4 years ago

Maybe this comment should be a separate thread....but I noticed when watching the video "Obey Your Daddy and Mommy" or something like that, where Caleb forgets to remove his shoes before stepping on the floor his mother just finished cleaning....
the video starts out with Caleb playing with a war plane. I think it is a F4U Corsair. Notice the "bent" wings. Here's a photo from Wikipedia (if this link works): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AU-1_Corsair_in_flight_1952.jpg
If he's allowed to play with a war plane, then why is he not allowed to play with Sparlock?
 
wasblind
wasblind 4 years ago

Amputated Limbs are cut off to save the body, You need to come up wit somthin' better
I ain't no amputated limb or as another poster put it yesterday sub of a sub

I love this DVD because I see Caleb in the mindset of quite a few posters
Anyone who thinks so little of themselves need to recognize, Caleb was them
in the makin'

Amputated limb, sub of a sub, THE HELL YOU SAY

Great catch snakeface
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 years ago

an American religion embraced by those terrible imperial colonists the British
 
mindseye
mindseye 4 years ago

With that said, why the extensive overkill and analyses of what is at heart a facile tool of an intellectually bankrupt and widely discredited American religion? Is this some sort of penultimate endeavour that this loosely organised movement we belong to has built up to?
I think it is a clever counter-weapon, and yes, quite an endeavour! With Sparlock, the org handed the Ex-JW community a powerful meme. The use of it is not only cathartic, but also shows the absurdity of JW doctrine and culture. There have been murmurings of the org pushing for more of a web presence, but this self-destructive act suggests that they may lack the savvy for new media. The Ex-JW community has handled it beautifully, having a lot of fun along the way. I hope we can keep it going!
 
Las Malvinas son Argentinas
Las Malvinas son Argentinas 4 years ago

NC and cofty: What bothered me more about the video besides the blatant attempt at throwing guilt and shame at the young boy, was the portrayal of Caleb’s mom. She undoubtedly is the Society’s idealised JW mother. Scrubbing the floor when she could have been better portrayed making dinner, exercising, or reading a book. Then she changes into a skirt for the family study. But I digress. Perhaps Sparlock is the defining moment of the material after all, like a famous line from a movie. All I can do is describe how I interpreted the video on a personal level.
sd-7: I’m not even sure this video will go down that well even within the JW community. Some will think that it’s for kids and not pay as close attention as the Society would normally want them to. As for the children to whom this is directed to, they have plenty of more entertaining things to watch. What this effectively does is force parents to throw out the Pokemon and Harry Potter type material (if they even had it in the first place) and replace it with more vanilla forms of entertainment.
cedars – Have your fun. This was my take and contribution on the Sparlock phenomenon. Some may agree, and some may disagree. I was just hoping that Sparlock himself would do me the honour of commenting on my thread. Who says I don’t have any sense of humour in this? Do pass the word onto ‘him’, though!
wasblind – I’ve been cut off to ‘protect’ the integrity of the organisation, so that’s how I feel. In hindsight, I probably should have switched pronouns on that one from the collective ‘we’ to the individual ‘I’. The JWs cut off everyone as if they were a diseased body part, when in reality the disease is within. The amputated limbs represent only a simplified analogy, and not any part of an extended allegorical philosophy.
jookbeard: I knew the Anglo-American world power beast as described in the Society’s Revelation books had substance! The Malvinistas, Hollywood activists, and Sinn Fein must have their own composite symbol in Revelation. I think I’ll read those materials more closely now.
mindseye: Yes, sometimes you must be absurd to prove an absurd point. We certainly have no shortage of that.
 
DT
DT 4 years ago

"The Ex-JW community has handled it beautifully, having a lot of fun along the way. I hope we can keep it going!"
I keep reminding myself that most Witnesses haven't even heard of Sparlock yet. Most District Conventions haven't happened yet. We know the EXJW reaction to Sparlock, but we really don't know what the reaction will be from loyal Witnesses. It may seem that Sparlock mania has already peaked, but we can't predict what the ultimate reaction will be.
It's a grand social experiment. Other religions and cults have invented villians in the past (like Satan), but I'm not aware of any that have tried this in the age of the Internet, certainly not in such a ridiculous manner.
 
wasblind
wasblind 4 years ago

Alright Emily I got ya,
but think of them as doin' you a favor,

because as we both agree, that Organization is the disease that you are now
cut off from
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

NC and cofty: What bothered me more about the video besides the blatant attempt at throwing guilt and shame at the young boy, was the portrayal of Caleb’s mom.She undoubtedly is the Society’s idealised JW mother.Scrubbing the floor when she could have been better portrayed making dinner, exercising, or reading a book.Then she changes into a skirt for the family study.But I digress.Perhaps Sparlock is the defining moment of the material after all, like a famous line from a movie.All I can do is describe how I interpreted the video on a personal level.
Oh trust me. I AGREE---especially having been one of those JW mothers. But it's just too many words---and not catchy at all. SPARLOCK just sums up the whole thing for me. It's something we all understand here, and all of the consolidated messages rolled up into this one symbol. Outsiders may not totally get it, but we do. He has been sent to us to help the healing. LOL
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 4 years ago

Humans have an inclination to use symbols and logos to condense a big idea into something concrete and tangible. Just as the watchtower name and logo are a symbolic shorthand for an authoritarian organization that erodes humanity from its members, Sparlock is a symbol that, at a glance, holds the concept of something treasured that was taken by force or craftiness from one by that organization. The exact details vary by individual, but the overall concept can be easily applied. It resonates on a conscious level and greatly on a subconscious level.
I was never in deeper than being a study, and I can see that. For me, Sparlock is that lost innocense and hopefullness that gets crushed by the system.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Las Malvinas wrote:
Sparlock most likely originated in the extremely limited and doctrinally challenged mental thought processes of one of the Society’s anonymous writers. Sparlock in of itself is of no great consequence. The sub-culture that produced such a dull tool for the masses is of more concern to me. They can release more and more of this drivel, and it will make little further impression upon me
The problem is the impression things like "Sparlock" will make upon the minds of children, not on the minds of those who already understand just how wrong that DVD is. Exposing that is also a way to criticize the sub-culture that created it. And, whether it was made by one of the anonymous writers or not, it got approved by the Governing Body, at the very least by a majority vote (two thirds).
 
Las Malvinas son Argentinas
Las Malvinas son Argentinas 4 years ago

DT: You brought up a point I had not considered. A good portion of JWs haven’t even been exposed to this material yet. We can all speculate on what the ultimate reaction will be. I would imagine that families with young children would dutifully pass on this material to their children to watch. Most Witnesses have already been sternly warned about anything to do with magic and the supernatural, so I don’t see the masses drawing anything new out of this, which is why I think this video will be ultimately disregarded by most and added to the increasing pile of rubbish they already have in their collections. For example, I can’t see my mother watching this personally more than once, if even that, and she’s one of the most indoctrinated members that I know. She’ll have a copy, but will tell herself that this isn’t for her and stick it next to her old bound volumes. This will be disseminated within the minds of children, and most JWs wouldn’t immediately make the ‘Sparlock’ connection. They’ll know that there was a lesson involved, but their minds are already dulled to the point where I suspect that much information passes through their thought processes without retaining much of anything new.
NC: I get the whole ‘Sparlock as a symbol’. Part of the reason for my post was to analyse what makes it a symbol, even though the lesson given is a rather minor one when compared to other Witness doctrine. You’ll get thrown out immediately for having a cigarette or being alone in the same room with a member of the opposite sex. I’m not even sure what they’d do to you if you owned a Sparlock-type toy other than privately insist that you get rid of it. The true lesson of Sparlock I would imagine is that it illustrates perfectly how petty and aloof the Society is. People are having trouble supporting themselves financially in this day and age, women and children are being abused, but they want to make absolutely certain that members don’t have anything to do with fictional magic characters.
dgp: Naturally I am concerned about the children and what effect it will have on them. It’s yet another example of why this religion is especially not suited for children. What else can they possibly do to make their young despise the religion which was forced on them? Can’t they just be satisfied that these children will become peddlers of their literature door-to-door for free? What harm does a magic toy really do? Are they going to start believing in Sparlock over Jehovah? The only explanation is mind-control. If they could get away with banning all forms of entertainment, I’m certain that they would. They want as little distractions as possible from getting people in their full-time service. Vacation pioneering? Why not? The real magic toys are their own literature and the aura of the organization. I knew someone who thought demons were coming into her home, so she placed WTs all around the house to ward them off. Another told me that if she were ever in danger of being raped, she would run to the nearest Kingdom Hall as soon as possible. You can’t fix this religion. It’s rotten throughout, and has always been so.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

"You can't fix this religion...." too true ! "It's rotten throughout and has always been so" Spot on again !
The thing is though that the community here, on JWN, has spotted an opportunity perhaps to wake some up who are in the religion. The whole video is so over the top "Culty" that anyone with a modicum of common sense and a teeny weeny bit of cognisant dissonance must say "WTF ? I mean WTF?, this is crazy !"
So the more we parody it on the Net and laugh at it and show that only a seriously deranged cult would produce such crap, the more JW's are likely to wake up.
At least, I certainly hope so.
 
sd-7
sd-7 4 years ago


sd-7: I’m not even sure this video will go down that well even within the JW community. Some will think that it’s for kids and not pay as close attention as the Society would normally want them to. As for the children to whom this is directed to, they have plenty of more entertaining things to watch. What this effectively does is force parents to throw out the Pokemon and Harry Potter type material (if they even had it in the first place) and replace it with more vanilla forms of entertainment.
True enough. Most JWs won't notice anything odd about it, save maybe the dad having a near-doorstep Bible study with Caleb over something as simple as tracking dirt in the house. I think that would've bothered me a bit even as a JW, because this little kid is getting hit over the head with scripture over extremely trivial matters. I think that sort of treatment invites rebellion in the future, the kind that probably is far more potentially self-destructive for Caleb than it needs to be. Or he'll be a zealot and one day make videos like this for his own children...
I just visited my JW mom recently, and it seems she'd gotten into that Sparlock sort of mode in putting all her 'bad' movies and games in a box and getting them out of the house. Not sure she'll throw them away, but could be the convention will move her to do just that. So even though Sparlock will not even remotely be noticed by JWs as it has been by us, what was done to Caleb is really being done to adult JWs as well.
I think Caleb's mom represents the Society and Caleb is any JW, and it's the same sort of manipulation that happens from "the spiritual mother". There have been pictures in recent WT magazines of teens or young adults throwing out their music or movies for the same reasons given to Caleb.
My expectation for my own home is that it'll be yet another movie to put on the TV as the kids play around and maybe look at the nice colors but don't really notice anything meaningful about it. They're not old enough for this scenario to happen yet, so...like many other kids who see this, it's going to become old news in a short while like most other WT-produced stuff. Who knows? Might even show up in a few months on a Service Meeting part, but that'll be about it.
--sd-7
 
Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

A thoughtful and well written opening post.
 

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Sparlock: The Sociology of the former Jehovah’s Witness community
by Las Malvinas son Argentinas 4 years ago 33 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

I just got a new television and ditched my entertainment center which is full of videos. My brother yanked them all out, and I still have a pile of JW videos! They were all dusty and most of them still had the wrapper on them. LOL Sparlock may end up a dusty and forgotten vid in the back of dubs entertainment centers.
NC
 
flipper
flipper 4 years ago

Just like Steve Hassan says in his books on cult mind control you can just see this DVD reeks of the fear & guilt tactics used by the WT society to try keeping young people in line. It's disgusting. And the mother in this DVD is sickening and passive aggressive. Poor kids that have parents like this will never be allowed to think on their own. They will be dominated unless they break free of this perverse, wicked, insane organization. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

NC it's like that at my (very active) parents' house. They have pretty much all of the videos and DVDs the WTBTS ever made...but they only pull one out when it's on a Q&A part for the Service Meeting. A lot still have the wrappers on them.
 
cult classic
cult classic 4 years ago

I don't see the video and its message as facile at all. Dissecting its teachings and approaches are necessary to uncover its harmful effects on the lives of those touched by it.
The number of threads or comments about the video is hardly overkill. Lurkers and posters probably don't enter every thread. Therefore, if someone wants to comment on a topic, they may post on an existing thread or simply start their own (such as yourself) instead of wading through previous threads. It may be that simple.
I ain't no amputated limb either... ouch!
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

While Sparlock may seem like an idiotic thing to latch onto for some here, for a lot of us it's therepeutic. For me, it's a symbol that the amount of control and manipulation I experienced as a child was not a figment of my imagination. The video itself with it's characature of the JW mother is proof that my memory does not exaggerate. This is important to me, not just in matters of my childhood, but also matters of my marriage and divorce. My husband SPARLOCKED ME. Threw me away because I no longer fit the mold of the "perfect" JW wife. I "made Jehovah sad", and so he and got himself a new model that lined up just so. And now my children are being raised with this disgusting cult mentality.
For me, this isn't just about a lost childhood. It's not about having my toy car thrown out the window of a moving vehicle because my aunt noticed that the wheel rims had star shapes in them (OH MY GOD!! A PENTAGRAM!!!). It's not about my mother mangling some of my toys to remove their offending parts. It's about the mindset behind it. The organization that's causing this insanity. The fact that some of my family are still held captive by such idiotic ideas as plastic being able to be a conduit for demons or make their god sad.
Sparlock is a symbol of what we have lost. But also an affirmation that no, we aren't crazy...and that yes, we have every right to be pissed the hell off.
 
ataloa
ataloa 4 years ago

NC said "He has been sent to us to help the healing. LOL"
Yes!



 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

UGh that is such an unnatural position to give birth in...
 
mamalove
mamalove 4 years ago

I just asked my kids if they had seen it at their dad's house. They said no. Thank goodness for now!
 
Las Malvinas son Argentinas
Las Malvinas son Argentinas 4 years ago

We all have our symbols to take away from that train wreck we just hobbled out of. My symbol more than anything was Jesus coming at me with a drawn sword (Book of Bible Stories) and that my father served Satan, hated me, and was going to die a deservedly horrible death at Armageddon. The more I read into the history of the JWs, the more spiteful I become toward the people responsible for this rubbish. I find even the most degrading and filthy producers of pornography more excusable than this. At least they are filling a 'need' somewhere, be it lonely old men, sexually charged couples, or young voyeurs. This religion fills no such need. It's a parasite which feeds on your money and your life, and leaves you with very little of either by the time it is through with you.
 
cult classic
cult classic 4 years ago

I will toast to that.
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

What the sparlock are you talking about? Sparlock is not the message nor the messenger. Sparlock is more than just a symbol. Sparlock is the first Magic wizard created and claimed officially by the Witchtower publishing corporation.
The video is not only their acknoledgement of the mind controll techniques used on children but almost a documentary of them. There is no more denying.
Sparlock is new light... a JW cant say its old light... at least not this year.
By requesting the video to be removed they claimed intellectual property on the video/the indoctrination methods/ and Sparlock!

Wait until the 5 year olds start asking "Mom, who created Sparlock?" And who created the DVD? Lil kids will do that. 7 and 8 year olds now use the internet...
The WT created magically its own hell!
 
sizemik
sizemik 4 years ago

Rest in peace Andre . . .
Long live Sparlock!
 
Listener
Listener 4 years ago

Great posts now I understand why the WTBTS filmed their Logo (the Tower) directly behind Sparlock in a segment during the song. Sparlock is not magical yet the mother believed it was otherwise she wouldn't have had it thrown out rather than returning it to the present giver. The organization puts fear into the minds of JWs where there is no basis for fear in the first place.
 
Muddy Waters
Muddy Waters 4 years ago

This discussion is awesome! Love the comments and insights and sociological and psychological perspectives of what happens when one is an active JW.
 

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Topic Summary
thewatchtower bible and tract society has unwittingly unleashed quite a viral sensation within the ranks of its former members.
to summarise what has happened so far:- become jehovahs friend dvd is released.
it is an animated feature aimed at children with modern computerised graphics.- the antagonist of the relatively brief cartoon is a self-described warrior wizard by the name of sparlock which was obtained by caleb, the young subject of this material.- the unnamed mother in this dvd guilt-trips young caleb into disposing of his sparlock toy.- the video goes viral within the ex-jw community, with youtube videos being posted of the video.



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I am so proud of how we've handled Sparlock!
by NewChapter 4 years ago 63 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

I know, another Sparlock thread. But I just have to express this! I AM SO PROUD OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE WITH SPARLOCK.
Youtube is being flooded with videos. Tshirts! FB fanpage. Artwork. Stories.
It's not often I feel a strong connection with people I don't know. But this Sparlock thing is priceless. Everytime a new thing pops up, I just laugh. We have so many creative people here, and so much humor. I personally think that creativity is the best way to work through negative feelings. I can't even express how tickled I am that WT has given us the gift of Sparlock, and we were alert enough to recognize that gift and make it our own.
I feel like I've reached the Barney Stage of Drunkeness (I love you, You love me) when I say you guys are great. I have smiled so much since Sparlock came to join us, and I'm so proud of us for how we've allowed him to work for us.
We will never let WTBTS forget that they created a Magical Warrior Wizard! How great is that. But more importantly we will never let them forget how they hurt children, how they have hurt some here, and how they have not crushed anyone. I was not born-in, so I can only imagine how this creative outlet must be helping some here. I'm happy to be a part of it. They may like to ignore us, but now they can't. And now, Sparlock will be avenged, along with every child that has had magic stolen from them by the Evil Watchers.
WAY TO GO!
 
sacolton
sacolton 4 years ago

You're welcome. :smile:
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

I see you have put a Sparlock on your avatar.
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

LOL---I made that Sparlock at goanimate---and have 3 vids featuring that Sparlock---and am working on a fourth that will be much longer. I thought he would make a good avatar. SPARLOCK LIVES
 
wasblind
wasblind 4 years ago

lONG LIVE THE WIZARD !!!!
 
cedars
cedars 4 years ago

I love the way it's been jumped on too. We can't decide what the outside media picks up, but we CAN dictate how much noise we make about issues such as this as one united voice. Sparlock and this new DVD has had a tremendous solidifying effect on this forum. Normal differences have been put to one side, and we have all just rolled up our sleeves and set about making life as awkward as possible for the Governing Body following the release of a DVD what will go down in the history of the Society as a catastrophic PR-failure. It's a team effort, and I'm proud to be involved in it.

Cedars
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

Humor is a powerful tool against cults and high control groups --- they HATE not being taken seriously. That is part of the beauty of this Sparlock thing.
The other part is that you sometimes shake your head and wonder, What REALLY was the deal with the Smurf and My Little Pony bans of 20-30 years ago? Am I imagining that happened? Was that done at the Society's direction, or was it just a couple rogue COs?
My wife was one to blame it on the rogue CO, or an over zealous elder. But this is straight from the horses mouth. THE GOVERNING BODY THEMSELVES BELEIVE THIS IS IMPORTANT. . . And I hope that fact helps wake a lot of folks up to what's going on here.
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 4 years ago

Can't wait for my shirt
 
IsaacJ22
IsaacJ22 4 years ago

I think Sparlock should be a symbol for XJWs. We need a Sparlock holiday, too. :smile:
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

Sparlock fitting down a chimney is actually quite plausible. . .
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

You know--I feel bad too. My daughter never believed in Santa and company. But I did let her watch smurfs (shhh). I even sculpted her one out of clay once. It was pretty good. She also watched this show everday on Nickelodian with this magical grandpa figure (can't remember the name) and Eureka's Castle. A sister was appalled when I rented the movie Casper for my daughter. So on the one hand, I'm dealing with some guilt. On the other, I'm glad I knew on some level it was all bullshit and I didn't totally steal magic from her. It's a mixed gig though.
I still remember our evening Nick at Night line up----Bewitched and I Dream of Jeanie. And excuse me---but we were Hercules and Xena fanatics.
It was the Disney thing. All the JW's were watching Disney---and I figured it there was nothing wrong with that, then there was nothing wrong with the other magical shows, movies and toys. I still wish I had given her Santa though. Ah well. She doesn't hate me.
NC
 
darth frosty
darth frosty 4 years ago

i agree NC
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 4 years ago

yea nothing like the WT to take the fun out of being a kid. Just on the conveyor belt of lifetime worker/drone to look forward to
 
AK MCGRATH
AK MCGRATH 4 years ago

If you haven't already seen, Sparlock the Wizard is on FB....and he's a hoot! 464 "Likes" and counting
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 4 years ago

I think Sparlock is a stand in for whatever it was you had to sacrifice to keep the approval of the cult, and for some people it is a way to reclaim what they lost.
For me, Sparlock is a tangible manifestation of how the cult has told so many lies and built so many structures to patch up previous lies that is is all a huge creaky conundrum they can not get out of.
Think about the possibilities....greeting some JWs at the door.
"Oh you are Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah, you are the guys who created Sparlock the Warrior Wizard. That was brilliant!"
 
Paralipomenon
Paralipomenon 4 years ago

Over on Yahoo Answers, the witnesses that post there don't know about the upcoming release and many are calling the video fake and made by Apostates to smear Jehovah's name.
They are in for a rude awakening when their District Convention hits.
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

BOC, I wasn't aware of the My Little Pony ban... I know I loved the toys as a kid and can't wait to be able to share the new generation of MLP with my child. We were in the store the other day looking at all the new My Little Pony toys and I was aghast at how many of them I wasn't able to play with. I remember my mother saying "No, that one has wings...no, that one has a horn..." A unicorn, a pegasus, etc. Only a few of them were "normal" ponies. Even as a grown woman, I stood there looking at them and feeling so deprived! I couldn't play with a toy because it had PLASTIC WINGS or a PLASTIC HORN?? Come on!! What's worse is when I did get one that had a horn, my mother sliced it off.
NC, I love how this forum has latched onto Sparlock and made him the official Apostate Mascot. It's a reminder that, even though we are all in different places in our recovery, and we all have differing opinions on subjects such as god and science, we were all wounded by the same "entity". And when called upon, we unite in a way that as JW's we never would have...because as JW's, we never would have banded together despite our vast differences in opinion and belief. It's a thing of beauty!
Good on you for not completely jumping off the deep end and depriving your daughter of magic 100%. I know for me, I loved my Disney movies... And I was given a copy of Casper by another JW (her dad was worldly) and even though I watched it in the house a million times, for some reason my mom decided we needed to tear it up a year later. She made me stand there and pull the tape out of the plastic housing, tear it up, and then put it in a trash bag outside. My mom was (and is) completely fanatical about "demons" and what might attract them.
 
Dagney
Dagney 4 years ago

It's freakin awesome! I'm sure the WTBS did not have a clue the internet aftermath would be this explosive. I love it.
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

I think I would laugh my ever-lovin' ass off if the Society saw the internet explode with Sparlock and then halted the release of the DVD for all future DC's...calling it "Old Light" and telling the ones who have already received it to get rid of it. That's about ALL they can do now!! And boy would it make them look stupid! They've really caught themselves between a Sparlock and a hard place .
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Over on Yahoo Answers, the witnesses that post there don't know about the upcoming release and many are calling the video fake and made by Apostates to smear Jehovah's name.
This is just RICH---and may be just the thing to send a few of them over here when they get their brand new shiny DVD!
 

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I am so proud of how we've handled Sparlock!
by NewChapter 4 years ago 63 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Gayle
Gayle 4 years ago

Thanks, Parali...,,that is so hilarious!!,,,The WT opened up the Internet and blessed it already,,so they aren't going to be able shut it down now. So great their members don't believe it is from the WTS. I hope WTS members don't pay/donate to it. Then, the WTS won't make any more further copies. May be many will 'vote' by not paying.
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

I still think it's hilarious that we get the inside info before most JW's do...
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 4 years ago

Morbidzbaby - "...if the Society saw the internet explode with Sparlock and then halted the release of the DVD for all future DC's...calling it "Old Light" and telling the ones who have already received it to get rid of it."
This is exactly what I see will happen. Then there will be stories circulated about how some apostates infiltrated the HQ and disrupted what they were getting ready to release, and pre-empted it with this. I'm sure that all mindless followers will buy that explanation, too - and destroy their very own copies of the DVD, as requested to do.
Truth be told... if apostates WERE involved... they'd do a heck of a lot better than what was done by those in brooklyn.
 
I quit!
I quit! 4 years ago

The Watchtower finally did something to make us laugh.
 
nancy drew
nancy drew 4 years ago

i can imagine it now sparlock answering the door one sunny saturday morning. Come in my little pretties
 
sacolton
sacolton 4 years ago

I think he'd say: YOU SHALL NOT PASSSSSSSSS!!!
 
Dagney
Dagney 4 years ago

I was thinking, Morris said this DVD was the first, and there would be other releases. Speculation there will be one on bad association and Dinah. I bet they are rethinking the whole plan.
Very proud of this vast apostate army!!
 
discreetslave
discreetslave 4 years ago

They found us


 
wha happened?
wha happened? 4 years ago

I'm glad that dubs are committing themselves to calling this a fraud by apostates. It will make it all the more bitter when they find out their own religion doesn't clue them in
 
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb 4 years ago

Well we've just dealt with it in the same childish manner that they have with us.
Which, yes, will make it sting all the more so as the day of jaybooger, I mean convention, draws near.
 
Scully
Scully 4 years ago

Wouldn't it be funny if the WTS decided to can the DVDs because of our exposure of Sparlock?
Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if they did, because it would feed into the Apostates™-making-up-$h!t thing.
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if they did, because it would feed into the Apostates™-making-up-$h!t thing.
That would suck----but children would be protected from this evil video, and our shoulders are bigger.
 
steve2
steve2 4 years ago

Normal differences have been put to one side, and we have all just rolled up our sleeves and set about making life as awkward as possible for the Governing Body following the release of a DVD what will go down in the history of the Society as a catastrophic PR-failure. It's a team effort , and I'm proud to be involved in it.
Hi Cedars, up until now I haven't followed the Sparlock threads too closely - so my apologies if I'm behind the play.
Can you recap for me in what way this has been a catastrophic PR-failure for the Watchtower Society?
Has something happened that has caused them to back off or put out additional inofrmation that shows it's been a catastrophe?
Or, at the present time, are you simply expressing your opinion about it's been a "catastrophic PR-failure"? Or have I missed what you meant by that phrase? steve2
 
compound complex
compound complex 4 years ago

From the spoofy thread "Mature Minors and Free Will."
Thanks for these two wonderful posts, NewChapter!
Caleb: Look, Mom, I cut the grass.
Mom: Caleb, I'm so proud of you for obeying.
Caleb: And before I cut the grass, I walked the whole yard picking up sticks and looking for rocks to prevent injury.
Mom: Caleb, I'm so proud of you for obeying.
Caleb: And then the lawnmower didn't start right away, so I got a wrench from the garage and made a few adjustments! Dad thought we were going to have to replace it, but it is good as new!
Mom: Caleb, I'm so proud of you for obeying.

Fast forward 20 years.
Caleb: MOM! I am graduating at the top of my class and am the valedictorian! I've been accepted into a much coveted graduate program and hope to earn my doctorate!
Mom: Caleb, I am so disappointed at your lack of obedience.
Caleb's sister: Mom, I told my boss at the button factory that I wanted to go part time so that I can pioneer. I picked up a few toilet scrubbing jobs in the evenings to replace some of the income.
Mom: I'm so proud of your obedience.

Caleb: And I returned Dad's wrench to the proper spot.
Mom: Caleb, I'm so proud of you for obeying.
Caleb: I emptied the grass clippings in the compost pile and have put away the lawnmower.
Mom: Caleb, I'm so proud of you for obeying.
Caleb: But mom, are you kind of grateful that I did all that? In school, they teach us to say 'thank you'.
Mom: Yes, Caleb. I am very grateful. I am so grateful that you are obedient, and I will thank Jehovah in my evening prayers.
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

LOL CoCo---I already forgot I wrote that.
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

Jim, I agree... The apostates on this site have taken the idea and run with it and created so many incredible memes, etc. The creativity here is definitely not stifled. I could see a few of us creating something 10 times better than what the Society put out.
 
Morbidzbaby
Morbidzbaby 4 years ago

I think Sparlock needs to have a word that he substitutes for anything else. Like..."the Smurfs are Smurftastic" kind of thing. OH and a theme song! Every hero needs a theme song!
 
compound complex
compound complex 4 years ago

Hey, morbidz:
I think all these threads on the wacky wizard are Sparlockicious!


 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 4 years ago

Hmmm, I think I have an idea for an awesome Halloween costume this year!
sl
Is that supposed to be an ammo belt going over his shoulder, with leather shorts?
 
shamus
shamus 4 years ago

What's this all about?
Kind Regards,
shamus
 

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Topic Summary
i know, another sparlock thread.
but i just have to express this!
i am so proud of what we have done with sparlock.. youtube is being flooded with videos.



Related Topics
glenster
Films from the last half century or so with 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and on YouTube
by glenster 2 months ago
OUTLAW
Magic in Watchtower World..Sparlock the Warrior Wizard Toy..VS..The Singing WBT$ Literature "Cart with a Heart"..
by OUTLAW a year ago
glenster
Mvie night
by glenster 3 months ago
John Aquila
Paint, Barney, and Jehovah
by John Aquila 6 months ago
thedepressedsoul
God & JW can't exist without "evil"
by thedepressedsoul a year ago



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I am so proud of how we've handled Sparlock!
by NewChapter 4 years ago 63 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Sparlock is the best.
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 4 years ago

Wouldn't it be funny if the WTS decided to can the DVDs because of our exposure of Sparlock?
They can't deny they made it--the DCMA "take-down" notices they sent to Amelia Ashton are a legal claim that they own the copyrights to the Sparlock videos. The Watchtower have admitted it: Sparlock is their baby!
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

LOL----
I love how these videos have become "Sparlock videos". That's gotta be really irritating.
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 4 years ago

I honestly did not believe it was real when I saw it. Do they not see how crazy it makes them look???
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

I honestly did not believe it was real when I saw it. Do they not see how crazy it makes them look???
I bet they are starting to get the picture now. I would not be surprised if they are not already working on a Sparlock exit strategy. The only thing I can remember that was this embarrassing (and was quickly dropped) was that crazy notion that the physical human heart could somhow think and drive a person to do evil things.
 
00DAD
00DAD 4 years ago



I honestly did not believe it was real when I saw it. Do they not see how crazy it makes them look???
I thought the same thing myself at first. It's so laughably weird and obviously cultish.
Apparently some Still-In Dubs saw it on YouTube and thought the same thing and hated it as an evil ploy from apostates. Imagine their shock when it's released at their District Convention.
We're talking Cognitive Dissonance on Steroids!
 
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 4 years ago

So funnee.

But I think about the fact that imagination (and fantasy as a tool to express imagination) is so important to a child's development - invisible beings, what-if, playing with little cars and creating narratives - all based on imagination. Now, that emotional outlet has been thwarted and stigmatized by the WTS. Do they not have a child psychologist on staff to advise them that children not only need, but must have, imaginative play, in order to develop properly - or does the WTS just try to encourage the development of miniature adults?
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

You know what is so funny---is even if 'magic' really WAS evil (and it's not real) but if it was----
Children have ALWAYS played magic---imagination is magical. How many of them grow up to continue doing magical things? I mean really. And I know that there are adults that do believe in things---Wiccans, Pagans, etc---but I don't believe those particular belief systems step from the same place as children playing with magical wizards. The one is purely fantasy. The other---that's religion---and more complex.
NC
 
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 4 years ago

Correct, NC. Even if there were not a media to create magic and fantasy figures - children have always done that themselves - whether a twig to represent a 'friend' or a doll to represent a child or a playmate - that is imbedded in the nature of children and how can that be wrong? In other words, that aspect is not nurture - it is nature.  What is wrong is to try to deny or thwart that creative outlet in children. It can mess them up.
 
truthseeker
truthseeker 4 years ago


 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 4 years ago

Thinking of storylines for Sparlock, I'd have him as an 'ancient wizard' appearing in the modern day and trying to impress kids with 'magic talk boxes'... which are really just walkie-talkies. The kids, of course, realize they aren't magic, but Sparlock plays it up and the kids play along because it's fun to pretend with Sparlock.
Another, Sparlock pretends that he has miniture musicians in a tiny magic box... but it's just an ipod.
So much stuff we have today would seem like black magic just a couple hundred years ago. Even a cheap flashlight today would be a magic trapped sunbeam in the minds of the ancients.
 
Chemical Emotions
Chemical Emotions 4 years ago

Those are really cute ideas. Especially the walkie-talkie one.
 
Jeffro
Jeffro 4 years ago

I would not be surprised if they are not already working on a Sparlock exit strategy.
Whilst it's almost certain that they won't use Sparlock again, it's not an 'exit strategy'. The series was always only intended to be about Caleb (who also features in The Watchtower).
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Billy---I've been working on a longer animation and am looking for some story ideas. It starts out with Sparlock blowing up Watchtower---which most people have already seen that part in one of my shorts---but for the longer one he wakes up from a dream of blowing it up, and had a magic book marked cults which his wand makes disappear----and right now, I just want to take him through streets blowing up WT references with his wand. But that's no much of a plot, LOL.
I'm learning to play with music, sound, and camera angles---and it's getting much better. I need a voice. None of the voices they have really feel like sparlock---and can sound robotic since they are text to sound.
IT'S GONNA BE A MASTERPIECE! And we can sell lemonade and cookies and save the clubhouse.
NC
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 4 years ago

LOL with Billy the Ex
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke
So if Jah hates magic, no wonder he doesn't want Caleb applying to MIT!
 
smiddy
smiddy 4 years ago

You have for the most part, 7 old men with little or no" life" experience ,very little or no higher education ,very little or no public relations experience,very little or no modern technological experience, then with maybe a couple of young go-getter youngsters with ambition in the organization,influence these old guys with the concept of an animated DVD of Mom & Dad and Caleb,manipulating a young child,instead of having a boogey-man ,you have" Jehovah" to thwart every childhood beleif/fantasy/imagination/learning/growing,that is imaginable to a very young impressionable mind
Jehovah`s Witnesses should see this for what it is : Child Abuse ,and if they don`t then the rest of the community should be made aware of it in the loudest possible voice,YOUR VOICE
smiddy
 
poppers
poppers 4 years ago


I couldn't play with a toy because it had PLASTIC WINGS or a PLASTIC HORN?? Come on!! What's worse is when I did get one that had a horn, my mother sliced it off.
OMG, Morbid! What an awful thing for her to do and for you to witness.
NewChapter, I'm looking forward to your next video and watching as your skills, techniques, and imagicnation flower. Gee, maybe I just coined a new word, imagicnation. Whattya think? Sparlock has released children from the tyranny of cult thinking by setting their imagicnations free.
 
Azazel
Azazel 4 years ago

I'm so glad that the Washtowel Society have finally gone completely stupid with the "Caleb" character. The old saying Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves has finally come to fruition . For me the "Sparlock" that was trashed was my Dungeons and Dragons collection and my imagination along with it. If God created magic or allowed it to happen then what the hell is wrong with it? My heart is warmed by the adoption of this poor little toy victim of the Governing Body.
Long live Sparlock and may he be a thorn in their side for as long as possible!

Azazel
 
Scully
Scully 4 years ago

GB Tirebiter:

Wouldn't it be funny if the WTS decided to can the DVDs because of our exposure of Sparlock?
They can't deny they made it--the DCMA "take-down" notices they sent to Amelia Ashton are a legal claim that they own the copyrights to the Sparlock videos. The Watchtower have admitted it: Sparlock is their baby!
I posted that comment before the DCMA take-down notice was issued. Even if they did decide to can the videos related to Sparlock now, they've gone and shot themselves in the foot with a legal paper trail. I love it!
 
00DAD
00DAD 4 years ago



"My Bible Lessons" - WT feature for infants 3 and Under
For those that are interested in discussing the broader issues concerning the WT's agenda to indoctrinate children, particularly the very young, I created a related thread addressing the relatively new WT feature "My Bible Lessons".  These two page "lessons" which appear in the Public version of the WT about every three months are specifically designed for infants "Age 3 and Under" and their parents.
Caleb of Sparlock fame made his debut in the most recent MBL.

"My Bible Lessons" - WT feature for infants 3 and Under

 

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Topic Summary
i know, another sparlock thread.
but i just have to express this!
i am so proud of what we have done with sparlock.. youtube is being flooded with videos.



Related Topics
glenster
Films from the last half century or so with 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and on YouTube
by glenster 2 months ago
OUTLAW
Magic in Watchtower World..Sparlock the Warrior Wizard Toy..VS..The Singing WBT$ Literature "Cart with a Heart"..
by OUTLAW a year ago
glenster
Mvie night
by glenster 3 months ago
John Aquila
Paint, Barney, and Jehovah
by John Aquila 6 months ago
thedepressedsoul
God & JW can't exist without "evil"
by thedepressedsoul a year ago



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I am so proud of how we've handled Sparlock!
by NewChapter 4 years ago 63 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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JWdaughter
JWdaughter 4 years ago

You know what is so great about all the YOUTUBE videos that the WT shut down? They have no deniability that it was their video-they can't claim it was an apostate infiltration:) Hahaha. I love that-cause otherwise, I kind of think they would.
I have never seen more cheerless and depressing drivel disguised as a childrens program. The WT should be ashamed of itself collectively. It isn't going to be watched repeatedly like Veggie Tales. It will be ignored after the first time the parents force it on their poor unsuspecting progeny.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 years ago

Do we actually know it was the Watchtower Society that complained to YouTube? As I recall YouTube tend to accept copyright complaints from any source, so it could have been a JW loyalist who complained on their own initiative.
 
DT
DT 4 years ago

I'm proud of how we have handled Sparlock, but even prouder of how we have handled the Candace Conti case. The media coverage is unprecedented.
I think Sparlock helped to unite the xjw community at a crucial time. It helped us to be better able to bring attention to the Conti case.
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 4 years ago

I wonder how much it would cost to have a Chinese toy company make a few thousand Spar Locks? Imagine the fun of giving them away to small JW children calling at your door? The joy of leaving them in the dirt and mud of the Kingdom Hall planters to be found, prized, and brought into the hall to be played with during meetings? Sparlock! Mud! Little tikes in polyester outfits with muddy Sparlocks!!!! LOL!! Elder and Church ladies everywhere would develop "Sparlock Vaporlock" and faint. LOL!!


 

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Topic Summary
i know, another sparlock thread.
but i just have to express this!
i am so proud of what we have done with sparlock.. youtube is being flooded with videos.



Related Topics
glenster
Films from the last half century or so with 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and on YouTube
by glenster 2 months ago
OUTLAW
Magic in Watchtower World..Sparlock the Warrior Wizard Toy..VS..The Singing WBT$ Literature "Cart with a Heart"..
by OUTLAW a year ago
glenster
Mvie night
by glenster 3 months ago
John Aquila
Paint, Barney, and Jehovah
by John Aquila 6 months ago
thedepressedsoul
God & JW can't exist without "evil"
by thedepressedsoul a year ago



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My first post - How do I stop JW Bible Study (nicely)?
by emcee  30 Replies latest    jw friends
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emcee
emcee


Hi to everyone on the forums. This is my first post, so I hope you’ll all bear with me.
My dad passed away in Oct 2004 and a customer called me shortly afterwards. I'll call her “Ellen”. She is around my age and a repeat customer (the kind that all salespeople like!) Ellen wanted to place an order, usual chit-chat, and she enquired why my daughter wasn’t at playgroup for the last few weeks. Our kids were then attending the same playgroup, but usually my MIL brought her as I was often working. So Ellen and I were still acquaintances at that stage.
I explained my dad had been seriously ill and passed away, but I got quite emotional as it was hard telling people in the early days. I said what was helping me through was the knowledge that dad was in heaven. I don’t remember the exact words but Ellen said something along the lines that according to the Bible, my dad could not be in heaven now although he was ‘at rest’. BTW, I was raised Roman Catholic and that is contrary to our beliefs. I asked if she meant that my dad’s soul was in purgatory / limbo while we prayed for his earthly sins. Ellen explained what JWs believe and offered me some reading matter. She left the “What happens to us when we die?” magazine with me soon afterwards. I read it and had no reason to disbelieve it, because it seemed to be a plausible commentary. I found it to be very unsettling that my beliefs had been “proven wrong” though. I wanted to investigate the Catholic doctrine further but didn’t know anyone who had studied it well enough. I also thought if I went to my local priest, he’d be angry that I was reading JW material. The next time I talked to Ellen, she asked me if I found the magazine interesting. I did find it “interesting” but in a disturbing way! She offered to come to my home to pick up her order and answer any questions I had about my reading. Now obviously this was going to save me some time, so I agreed.
Ellen turned up with a woman from her congregation, whom she said was very knowledgeable about the subject. Basically everything they said made sense and whatever I questioned was “backed up” immediately from the Bible. I told them it was disturbing to have a long held belief turned on its head. They said that they’d felt the same way when they had first “learnt the truth” about what they used to believe.
I’m sure you can guess the rest. Ellen offered to do a Bible Study with me if I wanted to learn more. I was searching for answers at that time and said yes.
The Bible Study was from the “What does God require of us?” magazine and the first few lessons were with Ellen alone. To me it was a sociable “coffee & cake” morning. Ellen brought her son along for playdates with my daughter. Later Ellen asked if another friend Kathy could join us. I am very easy-going and had no problems with this. We also ended up alternating venues for the study – my house and then Ellen’s but recently, we’ve been at Kathy’s house as well. Kathy has also become quite a good customer BTW. On a personal level, we all get along well. The kids have loads of fun together and we usually run way overtime because we chit-chat about the usual stuff that friends do. Ellen invited me to a jewellery party and I met more of her friends (and some family – not JWs)
In this time we have finished the “What does God require of us?” magazine and are now onto Chapter 2 of the “Knowledge” book. I haven’t always been able to do a study every week because of work commitments, appointments, visiting mum etc. At a certain point, I tried to set up fortnightly studies because it was tying up too much time, but Ellen would send me emails or ring me in between to see how I was doing that week (did I catch with work etc to fit it another study?) Being so easy-going, spineless, I took the path of least resistance and just fit it in!
After a few invitations I went to a Sunday talk, but haven’t attended any since. I was also invited to attend the Memorial but couldn’t go. There is a JW “state convention” in August and Ellen would really like me to go along for 1 day at least.
It has taken some time to develop serious doubts about the JW religion. (I also tried searching for JW sites for detailed information but initially found the official Watchtower site. I only discovered this forum last week…) Firstly, both my parents and in-laws lost touch with very good friends after joining the JWs (for no apparent reason). Early last year, the son & wife of my dad’s best friend suddenly began to visit my parents again after years of minimal contact. They learned of my dad’s health problems and “came back” into their lives. When I asked mum about this, she said that they had been asked to leave their congregation because of devoting too much time to their business.
I talked to Ellen & Kathy (E&K) about this at the next Bible Study. They said that no-one would be asked to leave JWs for that reason; that situation would happen only where a serious sin had been committed and there was no repentance. But perhaps I misunderstood and my friends had left voluntarily? I would call my parents’ friends about this but I’m afraid if it somehow slips I’ve been looking into JW, my mum would be distraught and she has enough stress right now.
I don’t think JWs are for me and I could never convert, but I am happy to continue Bible studies on occasion. I’m sure that E&K will try to persuade to me to ramp it up. Due to my limited Bible knowledge I can’t really argue Catholic doctrine vs JW, so I thought the best approach would be tell them of the problems I have with things like:
- How the JWs seem to attract paedophiles because of the “2-person witness” rule. I watched the 29/05/05 (Aussie) program of ‘Sunday’ that was linked here in the forums and was gob smacked. If only I’d seen it when it was broadcast, I would have mentioned it then so my objections won’t seem so “researched” now.
- JWs believe that they are Christians but other Christian religions are not? I can’t understand the reasoning on this one.
- Only baptised JWs will survive Armageddon (this is what I’ve picked up from lurking here for a bit – correct me if I’m wrong?)
- The whole disfellowshipped shunning thing is unchristian. It freaks me out that wife bashers and child abusers can be readily forgiven and people who communicate their doubts can be disfellowshipped. Go figure.
- Abstaining from blood means not eating/drinking it, right? How can blood transfusions (especially one’s own blood) contradict the above?
- The Bible doesn’t say “thou shalt not celebrate birthdays.” It only tells about the immoral practices of that time but I’m pretty sure I won’t be sacrificing small animals for my next birthday.
- Likewise the Christmas celebration is not mentioned; it doesn’t mean that Jesus’ family on earth would have plain forgotten about his birthday when he was a child. In biblical days there were no telephones, therefore they are not mentioned in the Bible, does this mean that using telephone are forbidden? I think not.
From the forums I get the impression that I need to be pretty strong with my objections in order to stop E&K’s conversion efforts.
- I suppose my question is will the above concerns be enough to have E&K accept my decision?
- The next one is have will I lose 2 friends and great customers in the process?
This is why I’ve asked for nice and polite ways of going about it, guys!!!
I apologise that this post has turned out to be longer than War & Peace. Many thanks in advance.
emcee
 
Odrade
Odrade



 Long, but interesting. Welcome to the board. I'm sorry you feel like you can't talk to your priest, or your mother's friends. If they did leave voluntarily, I'm sure they would be happy to speak to you, and I'm sure they would respect your confidentiality about being involved. That's one thing all of us know about...
Your priest, though disappointed that you got involved with JWs, would likely also be glad to speak with you about things. Just keep in mind that, now since you have started really thinking about what you believe, it may open up even more questions for you.
About this:
- The next one is have will I lose 2 friends and great customers in the process?
Almost certainly, yes, you will lose the friends and customers. You see, now you "know better," and if they even get a suspicion that you have gotten your information from people like us, (meaning people who were JWs and left) you will be avoided, even shunned. I'm sorry, that's just how it will likely be. They will decide that "Satan got ahold of Emcee," and they will be afraid that you will somehow taint their faith.
Stick around if you like, there's a lot to see here. Some people have been very hurt, and "skinned and thrown about" by the WT, some left on principle after investigating doctrine, some just drifted out with relatively little trouble or pain, but nearly all of us have come to realize what we were involved in, and would never go back.
O
 
alfie
alfie


Hi emcee,
Just tell them you enjoy chatting with them, but you have no intention in joining the Watch Tower. If they decide your company is no longer acceptable, drop them and get on with your life. Better to lose a couple of customers now,(you can always find other clients), than to lose friends and family and probably your self respect, all of which can be difficult, even impossible to recover.
CIAO4NIAO!!!
alfie
 
upside/down
upside/down


I didn't stop it when I should have...
20 years later I had to do a VERY PAINFUL exit from a cult...that I should have never joined in the first place...
I was too nice to say no...
NEVER AGAIN!
u/d (of the if just one person learns from my mistake...class)
 
potleg
potleg


You must be firm, it's no use trying to reason with them about their beliefs right now...they'll tie you in knots..You could say that you've thought things through carefully and you're just not interested, period. Of course they'll ask you why...DO NOT get into a debate! You can be friendly and firm at the same time. Do not leave the door open for future discussion or they WILL be back.
Lot's of people on this board have been sucked in while they are feeling vulnerable but their pain was nothing compared to the trauma of families being split apart and the hard fight to break away. These witness people maybe very nice but remember the teachings they follow and uphold are not.
Come back here often we want to help you.
 
blondie
blondie


If continuing your study of Watchtower publications is dependent on their continuing "friendship," they weren't your friends in the first place.
Just be firm, say you no longer wish to study but don't wish to end your friendship or lose them as customers. Don't offer a reason, such as, you are busy, you don't agree with _________ (fill in the blank).
Their reaction will let you know how much a friend they are.
Love, Blondie
 
Purza
Purza


Welcome. I am sorry for the loss of your father.
I don't think there is a way for you to do it "nicely". They will take offense, no matter how nice you are, and you will lose two "friends" and customers. But as the others said, they weren't really your friends in the first place. Sad.
Purza
 
sf
sf


Welcome.
You are very smart in the fact that you used your computer to "make sure of all things" and "stumbled" onto this site. Many of us hope there will be more like you in that they make an effort to ask questions and do research on one of the most destruction and deceptive book publishing organizations, masking as The True Religion, in the history of the world.
{{ applause is in order here }}
Bible Study was from the “What does God require of us?” magazine
Now tell me, what is wrong with this statement?
LOL!!
emcee,
Please stick around here and read, read, read. Especially read www.freeminds.org in order to fully educate yourself.
 Sincerely, sKally

sf
sf


I'd like also to refer you to a thread [ click the blue hyperlink below ] I submitted recently that is dynamic to this topic:
Turning the shunning policy around onto Mother...
I think it is vital to truly understand the affects that the shunning [ punishment ] policy if you are in fact going to continue studying at all. A policy that you too will HAVE TO adhere to if you become one of them, in any capacity.
sKally

Joker10
Joker10


You are certainly not thie first person who had decided to stop studying with JWs. There many tens of millions who have and only a small fraction progress to baptism.
About pedophiles. How many pedophiles know that JWs have a '"2 person witness rule"? How can they be attracted tothe JW lifestyle?-


JWs believe that they are Christians but other Christian religions are not? I can’t understand the reasoning on this one.
They believe they are the true Christians, but know what the word 'christian' means in the dictionary.

Only baptised JWs will survive Armageddon (this is what I’ve picked up from lurking here for a bit – correct me if I’m wrong?)
Only Jehovah's worshippers will make it into the New World.


 The whole disfellowshipped shunning thing is unchristian. It freaks me out that wife bashers and child abusers can be readily forgiven and people who communicate their doubts can be disfellowshipped. Go figure.
- Open you Bible again. Din't the founder of Chrstianity himself let his followers know to not associate with people who left the congregation?


ikewise the Christmas celebration is not mentioned; it doesn’t mean that Jesus’ family on earth would have plain forgotten about his birthday when he was a child. In biblical days there were no telephones, therefore they are not mentioned in the Bible, does this mean that using telephone are forbidden? I think not.

No other holiday is probably more worldy that this one.

sf
sf


Joke number 10,
Open you Bible again
Perhaps you missed it...
Bible Study was from the “What does God require of us?” magazine
They were studying a magazine, not the bible.
sKally

Now What?
Now What?



 Welcome emcee and great first post!
Sorry to hear about you father. I find the traditional Christian teaching of the afterlife is FAR better than the jw "soul-sleep". And, even though I am still a jw (for now) I think that the Catholic tradition of Purgatory and then heaven is a beutiful thing. After all, it's on the way to heaven, which as a jw is out of the question. Its understandable that your priest would be saddened at your involvement with the jw, but I doubt he would be angry, but likely will be able offer some good starting places as to the fallicies of jw theology, especially if he is a Franciscan or St Joseph. If you would like to investigate Catholicism better, he or his assitant can get you some resources. I don't trust the jw's on their info about other relions and get my Catholic supplies from catholiccompany.com.
How to say no to the jw? Just let them know you are not interested, considerate but plainly. They will likely push the issue and as was said, you don't need to get into a debate about it. You have the right to exercise your own free will on this. A simple "No, thank you" is MORE than sufficient. I agree with upside/down 100% that the sooner the better! The witnesses do build very convincing arguements. And it can take years once you are in to dig out from the other side. Also, the witnesses will likely paint the picture that certain people are the enemy and can't be trusted (like your family or parish priest). That's a sure warning that the jw are closing in. Your freindly jw may seem very nice and polite, but the organization is not so kind. I hope you can see through the smile to the wolf behind her. That should address both questions at the same time. Whether she accepts it or not is irrelevant. Losing a few customers is not worth what you lose in the future if you don't.
Take care and Good Luck!

luna2
luna2


Back when I first started studying with JW's, my marriage was failing. There was one point where I halted the study because my husband and I tried to reconcile and he was uncomfortable with my looking into the Witness faith. The sister who was studying with me wasn't happy, but she accepted my decision. Unfortunately, she called back three months later and I foolishly restarted the study. Ugh. What a dope I was!
At any rate, I mention this because if you want to ease out of studying without a direct confrontation, you could simply claim that you are too busy with work, with the family, with an exercise class, with whatever you can think of. You can smile and be pleasant...but just not be available. You might still keep them as customers this way...although I would NOT pursue the friendship. Ultimately witnesses really can't be friends with people outside their religion. They can be pleasant acquaintances, they can be customers or workmates or neighbors, but not true friends. I mean, really, they think everybody who isn't a Witness is going to die soon at Armegeggon...tough to get too attached to a person you believe is doomed to desctruction.
Of course, taking the soft way out might have repercussions in that they will probably stop by, email or call trying to get you to restart the study, but if you simply smile and say "no", they won't be able to get their hooks into you. If they become too insistant or too pushy it would be easy enough to tell them that you have no intention of ever studying again and request that they do not contact you about their religion in the future.
Honestly, it would probably be best to just tell them up front that you aren't interested, even if do you lose their business. Jehovah's Witnesses can be true pains in the rear end when they think there's even the slightest possibility of a new convert and, personally, I don't think it's worth the bother. LOL
Welcome to the forum and Good Luck!

kid-A
kid-A


Emcee,
Its refreshing to see somebody proactively seeing the logical flaws in the WT theological teachings before
getting in too deep. I think to politely back out merely requires either 1) being persistent yet gentle
in trying to get satisfactory answers from the JWs for the excellent questions you raised (you will
soon realize they have no real answers to these issues) or 2) continue to come up with excuses about
being too busy, avoiding the studies, totally non-confrontational but they will eventually get the point that
you have genuinely lost interest.
Cheers

talesin
talesin


Welcome to the forum, emcee.
Bravo! You have done an excellent job of ferreting out the TRUTH about the JWs.
Good advice on this thread from most of the posters. I would go with the 'just say no' approach. If you go back and read Joker10's reply, you will see the type of response you will get if you try to point out any specific problems you have with 'the religion' to E&K.
They are not your friends. They are practicing a tactic called 'love-bombing', and it will quickly end as soon as you firmly tell them you are no longer interested in 'studying the bible' (lol) with them. They may remain customers, but the social aspect will most likely go *poof*.
I was raised in this 'religion', and this is the way they operate. It's sad, but true.
Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!
talesin

Elsewhere
Elsewhere


Abstaining from blood means not eating/drinking it, right? How can blood transfusions (especially one’s own blood) contradict the above?
Regarding the blood issue... The JWs say you must not "eat" blood or put it in your body... you might want to point out the following scriputes that say that it is ok to break one of gods laws for the purpose of helping someone, including eating something that one is not ment to:
(Luke 14:1-6) . . .And on an occasion when he went into the house of a certain one of the rulers of the Pharisees on the sabbath to eat a meal, they were closely watching him. 2
And, look! there was before him a certain man who had dropsy. 3 So in response Jesus spoke to those versed in the Law and to the Pharisees, saying: "Is it lawful on the sabbath to cure or not?" 4 But they kept silent. With that he took hold of [the man], healed him and sent [him] away. 5 And he said to them: "Who of YOU, if his son or bull falls into a well, will not immediately pull him out on the sabbath day?" 6 And they were not able to answer back on these things.

(Matthew 12:1-8) . . .At that season Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath. His disciples got hungry and started to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2
At seeing this the Pharisees said to him: "Look! Your disciples are doing what it is not lawful to do on the sabbath." 3 He said to them: "Have YOU not read what David did when he and the men with him got hungry? 4 How he entered into the house of God and they ate the loaves of presentation, something that it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those with him, but for the priests only? 5 Or, have YOU not read in the Law that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple treat the sabbath as not sacred and continue guiltless? 6 But I tell YOU that something greater than the temple is here. 7 However, if YOU had understood what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice,’ YOU would not have condemned the guiltless ones. 8 For Lord of the sabbath is what the Son of man is."
Cupcake
Cupcake


Welcome. I am sorry for the loss of your father. I too lost my father who was one of JW's in 2003
I agree with what Purza stated above: I don't think there is a way for you to do it "nicely". They will take offense, no matter how nice you are, and you will lose two "friends" and customers. But as the others said, they weren't really your friends in the first place.
Besides a true Christian is a follower of Christ. and people would turn there back on Christ and perscute him and he still was there for us and still is It is not the Religion but your relationsip with God that will save you.
So are you saying that the only reason why you are studying with JW's is because you dont want to lose them as friends or customers? think about this.
Wouldnt that be like they are judgeing you? Who are they to judge? who are they to disfellowship? to shun as if one is a ? We are all imperfect are we not? one can repent but only God knows what is in your heart.
Would God want you to serve man ( JW's) or Him? Would he want you to please man ( JW's) or Him?
Jehovah God knows what is in your heart and the heart of all of us. and if (JW's) turn your back on you or critize you just because you choose to follow you heart, and you know that deep down you are not doing anything Un Christ like, they have stubbled you.... Now what does the bible say about someone who stubbles you? If you loose your life because your brother stubbled you then they will also...

thats why I disassociated my self from them. and if im wrong for doing that... then the ones that have judge me, shuned me, or turned there back on me are just as bad as I am for that matter
CC

Scully
Scully


- Open you Bible again. Din't the founder of Chrstianity himself let his followers know to not associate with people who left the congregation?
If, by the term "the founder of Christianity" you mean Jesus, I challenge you to show me ONE scripture where JESUS says to "not associate with people who left the congregation."

OUTLAW
OUTLAW

There is no nice way to stop..If your nice,they`ll just lay alot of guilt trips on you,in an effort to keep you in the cult..The right thing to do would be to send them to my house..I`ll put the BBQ on and it will be "Cold Beer and Roast Dub Sandwich`s" for everyone!!...LOL!!.....OUTLAW

blondie
blondie


If, by the term "the founder of Christianity" you mean Jesus, I challenge you to show me ONE scripture where JESUS says to "not associate with people who left the congregation."
Good point, Scully.
Many JWs get confused after hearing so much that the FDS represents Christ on earth. Ergo, anything the FDS says is the same as hearing it from Christ.
Blondie


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My first post - How do I stop JW Bible Study (nicely)?
by emcee 11 years ago 30 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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homesteader
homesteader 11 years ago

as other's have said and is my opinion....there is no way to end it nicely. you have a good head on shoulders and I know you will come up with a solution. best wishes.
 
greendawn
greendawn 11 years ago

It's your life and you don't want it messed up by this cult so however tough it may be on them if you drop the so called bible study, you shouldn't be concerned.
 
Honesty
Honesty 11 years ago


I don’t think JWs are for me and I could never convert, but I am happy to continue Bible studies on occasion.
It is a study alright. A study of a book published by the WatchTower Society. They only use the bible to prove what they say and do it out of context. Just tell them that you want to worship Jesus and they will freak out. Also, show them 1 Corinthians 1:18 in a accurate bible translation and ask them what do they think about this. If this doesn't work just tell them that the JW gospel is not the good news about Jesus. It is about a carrot the WatchTower dangles in front of people. You can live forever on a pair-o-dice earth. Thay are a dangerous and destructive cult. they do not teach the love of Christ at all and they teach their followers to hate all non-JW's but not in so many words it is just implied. If a person disagrees with their unscriptural doctrines the person is a goat and is worthy of being destroyed by God at Armageddon. You will lose them as friends when you stop the sudy because their friendship is very conditional.
 
jschwehm
jschwehm 11 years ago


Hi Emcee:
My name is Jeff Schwehm. I have a website that assists Catholics in dialoging with JWs. I sent you a private message.
Jeff Schwehm
www.catholicxjw.com
 
ithinkisee
ithinkisee 11 years ago


emcee,
Nice post and welcome.
Traditionally, Catholics have been easy pickings (supposedly) for JWs because a great many of them are not really practicing, and many of the ones that are practicing have little to no bible knowledge. I believe this is changing, but since there are so many Catholics there are still many many uneducated ones.
My advice to you would be to learn your bible if Christianity is the way you would like to go.
Regarding your questions:
- How the JWs seem to attract paedophiles because of the “2-person witness” rule. I watched the 29/05/05 (Aussie) program of ‘Sunday’ that was linked here in the forums and was gob smacked. If only I’d seen it when it was broadcast, I would have mentioned it then so my objections won’t seem so “researched” now.
Yes, this is self-explanatory. Problem is most JWs honestly in their heart of hearts believe the pedophile thing is a problem isolated to one or two congregations. The Governing Body helps perpetuate this myth.
- JWs believe that they are Christians but other Christian religions are not? I can’t understand the reasoning on this one.
This is easy. They changed the definition of christianity to a definition that applied to them. Then they slap the word "Christian" on all their Assembly Halls and that somehow makes them Christian. They also do this with other words like "born again". The WT used to say they weren't "born again", but they changed the definition so that now they can technically say they are. But they are deceiving you - because it doesn't mean the same thing that it means in true Christianity.
- Only baptised JWs will survive Armageddon (this is what I’ve picked up from lurking here for a bit – correct me if I’m wrong?)
Yes. They say "no" in an official "Questions From Readers" article in one of the magazines, but then they go on to qualify that statement to say that the resurrected people will not be JWs and will get a chance to make a decision in the new system. So the "real" answer is "yes" - they believe they are the only ones.
- The whole disfellowshipped shunning thing is unchristian. It freaks me out that wife bashers and child abusers can be readily forgiven and people who communicate their doubts can be disfellowshipped. Go figure.
Highly unchristian. Jesus would never shun someone who says, "I love Jesus/God/whatever, but I am not too sure on the beliefs you've ADDED to scripture." Of course - Jesus would never add contradictory obligations to scripture.
- Abstaining from blood means not eating/drinking it, right? How can blood transfusions (especially one’s own blood) contradict the above?
This is "straining the gnat". They do this merely to differentiate themselves. It is completely not based on anything logical or loving. I think it is sick and actually demonic.
- The Bible doesn’t say “thou shalt not celebrate birthdays.” It only tells about the immoral practices of that time but I’m pretty sure I won’t be sacrificing small animals for my next birthday.
Again, they do this merely to differentiate themselves.
- Likewise the Christmas celebration is not mentioned; it doesn’t mean that Jesus’ family on earth would have plain forgotten about his birthday when he was a child. In biblical days there were no telephones, therefore they are not mentioned in the Bible, does this mean that using telephone are forbidden? I think not.
Can't argue with that.
From the forums I get the impression that I need to be pretty strong with my objections in order to stop E&K’s conversion efforts.
Yes, I would say so. Even if you are polite you will be amazed at how quickly they will drop you - and that "sincere concern" they had over your loss will evaporate.
On the other hand, you may just be able to say that you would like to pause the study and think about it. If you start in with all the so-called "apostate" reasoning then that may make them drop you quickly. They (we, since I am still a practicing JW) have been getting lots of subtle and not-so-subtle training from the Watchtower HQ to not trust ANYTHING on the Internet - even if it is legit. I believe they are preparing in advance for the onslaught of information that is only getting louder and louder. (Sites like this)
- I suppose my question is will the above concerns be enough to have E&K accept my decision?
You may not need to bring up the "truth" about JW's (i.e. scandals, and ex-JW reasoning) - they won't believe it anyways. They'll say, "It sounds like you have been talking to apostates."
- The next one is have will I lose 2 friends and great customers in the process?
If you end it politely you may not lose them. They may continue to be your customers and think that maybe you just need some time to think about it - so they'll continue to drop by and "show concern". I say LET THEM. Especially if it keeps some business. You may have to put up with politely taking magazines now and again, but if they are valuable as customers - then look at it as nothing more than chatting about the weather or something.
I wish you well, and just be lucky you aren't a baptised practicing JW who has decided that it isn't the "Truth" - like me. I am on the verge of telling my own wife about my beliefs. Be glad you are only risking a couple biz/friendships. I could lose my whole family and will likely lose my whole social structure.
I wish you the best though.
-ithinkisee
 
sass_my_frass
sass_my_frass 11 years ago

Hi and welcome... I'm so sorry that you have been targeted while you're vulnerable, I hope that you can be polite but firm, and that you can work it out.
 
emcee
emcee 11 years ago


Thank you everyone for your replies. I’ve read every reply carefully and there is a consensus! Except Joker10… Are you sure you’re in the right place sweetie? ;-)
sf / sKally, thanks for posting about your mother. You opened my eyes. I’m so very sorry about your dear son.
Thank you to Elsewhere for explaining the “abstain from blood” issue in a way that my heart can accommodate. IthinkIsee, now that is truly a demonic example of JW beliefs.
As potleg said, I was sucked in when I was vulnerable. Cupcake, I have to agree with you on the “studying because I don’t want to lose the friends & customers”. It’s in my nature to avoid conflict which is why I can’t seem to stop the studies. I also confused friendship with what was actually a customer relationship because I thought from the initial visit that the JWs offered real answers and really cared about me.
Except that I needed to and should have worked out the answers for myself. (It is hard to “understand” anything when you and your family are grieving hard.)
As my dad was dying, I thought that my prayers went unanswered and I was angry with God for allowing 2 years of suffering. My dad had wasted to 27kgs when he passed from cancer (that’s like 50-odd pounds). My dad wanted his pain to end; and short of a miracle, unfortunately there was only way for the pain to end and our whole family needs to accept that. I’ve now come to realise that the cancer wasn’t God’s doing and I can no longer blame Him. It strikes where it strikes, no reasons. (Eve’s deception by Satan and Adam’s disobedience aside.) It just hurts so bad to watch it happen to someone you love.
I’m just going to bite the bullet and tell E&K that I can’t continue Bible studies as I have thought about it carefully and will never convert. I consider them to be my friends and hope we will always be friends. Being unavailable for the studies because of other commitments hasn’t worked so far. Having said that, it will have to be done next week since work changed my days this week. I’ll let you know how I go. In the meantime I'll lurk and hopefully pick up some resolve. (I feel so weak when it comes to confronting people.)
Thanks everyone, for allowing me to get it off my chest and for your caring advice. I wish everyone who is in the process of leaving the JWs wisdom and strength.
emcee
 
emcee
emcee 11 years ago


In response to Joker10, I hope you will take this in the spirit that it is intended (that is, of education);

What I’ve learnt in my life is that “like attracts like” (in positive and negative ways). I saw the Sunday program – the paedophilia problem is hidden but endemic in JWs and not dealt with in any sensible fashion. The 2 main culprits (who moved from congregation to congregation), were abusing kids from over 20 years ago til recently and are still with the JWs in

Sorry for the visuals, but you can bet on my chubby lily-white arse that I will NOT be exposing my child to an organisation where paedophiles are nicely set up to perpetrate their crimes. That is, by keeping parents so busy studying and preaching that they can’t supervise their children for great lengths of time. Oops, forgot that a lot of JW dads don’t generally get too involved in raising the children. I know you can argue that the RC Church has paedophile priests, but the fact is that RC congregation acknowledges that this has been (and likely still is in some parishes) a problem and as responsible parents we are looking for any abnormal behaviour and signs. We do not bury our heads in the sand and believe the problems are “outside” (or “in the world” according to you) when in fact, they can be underneath your nose.

I would never let my kids go to Mass (church service) or other church activities on their own. The same for sporting activities, music lessons, etc. I know I can’t be in the actual classroom with my kids, but I’ll be waiting outside. Sad reality, but necessary today.

Actually it's too bad I can’t go to school with my kids! I’d get better grades this time around.

emcee
 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 11 years ago


Emcee,
Be straightforward and honest with them. You do not want to continue studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. If they ask why just tell them the truth. Tell them you would like to be thier friend regardless.
You'll see they never were your friends.
W.Once
 
MidwichCuckoo
MidwichCuckoo 11 years ago


You do not want to continue studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses
Is this new? I thought the Bible was only used to support WTBTS publications.....lol
 
LouBelle
LouBelle 11 years ago


Hi emcee - welcome to JWD.
You should tell them in a very nice tone that you don't think that this is the religion that you wish to convert too. Thank her for her time & tell her that she has increased your awareness of God & the bible & plan to develope your relationship with him & worship him in spirit and truth as is noted in the bible.
 

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Topic Summary
this is my first post, so i hope youll all bear with me.
my dad passed away in oct 2004 and a customer called me shortly afterwards.
i'll call her ellen.



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Losing Faith
by cappytan a year ago 33 Replies latest 5 months ago   jw experiences
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cappytan
cappytan a year ago

I've always been a "spiritual" person. I've been an avid bible reader since as early as I can remember. I read the bible cover to cover for the first time when I was about 17 years old and have read it at least twice more since then. I don't recall how long it took the first time, but it was over the course of at least two years.
I was baptized at 11 years of age. At that time, God was real to me, it seemed illogical for life to exist without intelligent design, and the religion I called my own seemed to adhere 100% to the bible. At the time, I considered the bible to be the "word of God," infallible.
I progressed after baptism. To the point that I eventually was appointed as an MS. I even served for a time at Patterson Bethel 2001-2002.
That was my first exposure to the hypocrisy. I saw fellow Bethelites saying one thing in public, and doing another behind closed doors. In public, they would appear to be morally upstanding. However, double lives were being lead. Drunkenness, foul language, inappropriate jesting, porn, etc.
I became disillusioned and questioned if it really was what it appeared to be. Was this really the "truth?"
I didn't do much questioning of doctrine at the time, just of the personalities of fellow believers.
Because of this, I got over my disillusionment and became active in the faith once more.
However, recently, that has changed.
As y'all know, occasionally JWs have "refinements" of doctrinal understandings. This religion has made a lot of predictions over the years. Predictions that sound scripturally based, and then change when the original prediction didn't pan out.
Recently, there have been quite a few refinements in understandings about bible prophecy.
I used to subscribe to the view that this was a good thing. I felt that it was humility on their part to admit when they were wrong.
However, I now think it feels like an attempt to retain power and control over followers that may start to see the failures of promises.
The GB is currently ignoring vast amounts of archeological evidence about 607 vs 587 in bible history in order to keep their power that comes from claiming to be "God's earthly channel" of communication.
At this point, my faith is shaken. I have researched the archeological evidence and have found the Society's position on that evidence to be flimsy, at best.
And, because of this, my faith in other beliefs is shaking. Is the bible prophetically reliable? If God exists, does he really approve of this organization?
I still can't help but feel that there must be a higher power, an intelligent designer of life and matter. I also feel that the lessons the bible teaches are beneficial for life. Love your fellow man, love your wife, obey your parents, be peaceable, mild, kind.
But what about all the other specific doctrines? I don't know anymore.
Like Brother Knorr was said to have said once, "All I know for sure is that Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son, and Jesus died for our sins." That's kind of how I feel.
But, doubting these other details about my faith also makes my faith in those basic things have a shaky foundation as well.
Right now, I am still outwardly an "uber dub," but on the inside, I am torn up.
Normally, if someone feels the way I do, you just decide that this faith or church isn't for you and move on.
However, my whole family is in the truth. Wife, Father, Mother, Father-in-law, Mother-in-law, Sister, etc.
So you can see why this challenge is a struggle. I love my wife, my family and my wife's family. However, in order to have a meaningful relationship with them all, I can not communicate my doubts about the faith or leave the faith. If I were to do so, I would not only be persona-non-grata to them, but they would also suffer emotionally.
In addition, the only friends I have are heavily invested in this religion also.
At this point, I feel trapped. My choices are either go with my gut, my brain, and stop wasting my time on this bull crap, or to grit my teeth, and pretend to be a believer and say all the right things in order to not disappoint family or friends.
What will I do? How will I face this challenge?
As of now, I have no idea. But, putting down all of this in writing has been somewhat therapeutic, and I'm glad I have done so.



Thanks for listening and any insight y'all can provide would be appreciated.
 +3 / -0
adjusted knowledge
adjusted knowledge a year ago
Thanks for your post.  So many here can relate.  Every one here is at different stage in regards to their faith.  You are at the beginning and most difficult stage.  You will receive a lot of opinions, but it is YOU that has to deal with the consequences of those decisions.  Take your time and be careful.  I wish you good luck.

 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a year ago
I say this, first step take the pressure off yourself. Their emotional blackmail is working, take control. Stop feeling like you need to make an immediate move about your doubts, use this forum to doubt in private until you are fully comfortable with your choices. I know you are afraid to let them down, but if you don't leave all the way (DA DF) you can take control, and you might be surprised by who loves you despite not being an uber dub. I still accompany my spouse to meetings, but have zero faith in the bible, and zero in the dubs, its an aggravation, but i know I have a few friends here and else where to help me cope
 
marmot
marmot a year ago

It's scary that's for sure. Nobody can tell you what to do and it looks like you've already fallen down the rabbit hole in terms of discovering that the foundations for your faith are worthless, just be prepared for heartache either way. If you stay you'll be eaten away on the inside and if you leave you'll lose all your friends and maybe family.
Do what you feel you need to, I was in your shoes once and I just quit everything at once. The elders turned up once or twice but couldn't be bothered to even disfellowship me. I put everything behind me and moved on with my life, your results may vary.
 +1 / -0
Ding
Ding a year ago

Have you read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz?



 +1 / -0
cappytan
cappytan a year ago

@Ding: in the process. But had the doubts about 607 and, by extension, 1914 before I started reading it.
I didn't even question anything until the society had those articles addressing the 587 issue. I wasn't even aware that there was an issue until those two articles appeared in the WT.
then all this overlapping Generation crap reared its head.
 +1 / -1
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago

Jesus, is it new member day? Lots of new folks, great to see. 
Welcome.  I'm in a pretty similar place.  Its been  about 8 months since I found TTATT, and I'm still trying to found a way to exit without ruining my marriage or damaging my wife's relationship with her family. 
My advice (for what it's worth) is to take it show and do lots of research. Have you cone across jwfacts.com yet?  Lots of information there (as week as here) to help you see that you're not crazy and there is indeed many things amiss with the jw organization.
Also, feel free to pm me of you ever need to talk/vent/whatever.  It sounds like we're in similar situations, and for me it's been a huge comfort knowing I'm not alone.  So, thanks for sharing.
 +2 / -0
Ding
Ding a year ago

One way some people have gotten their spouses to look at the evidence is to study at home, raising various issues as "things we might have to face at the door."
Often, listening is more effective than speaking. Listen for anything that might indicate family members are dissatisfied with the organization or questioning any of its teachings.

 +2 / -0
millie210
millie210 a year ago

A warm welcome to you. A lot of us here are in the same tough situation.
Because we have learned and been trained to treasure "truth" I think we feel we need to react to what we now know.
But as so many have advised, take it slow. You have relationships that you cherish to protect. It is not your fault that you are in this predicament and like so many things, time helps.
I really like the saying "lean dont leap".
all the best
 
 +1 / -0
whathappened
whathappened a year ago
Welcome to the group.  It was nice to hear you love your wife and families as well.  Approach this with that in mind. Think about how you would want to be taught the truth about the truth.  Keeping your family in a dangerous cult is not good.  Be patient and move slowly and gently.
 
Magnum
Magnum a year ago

Hey - I can relate to what you said. You seem like a really honest, sincere person - far more so than most JWs who are blind to truth or who wouldn't admit it if they really saw it. You seem to be a spiritual person in that you seek answers; you want/seek truth and will admit truth. I consider myself spiritual in that I am seeking and am honest enough to admit that I have not yet found. I am still open to a number of different possibilities.
I am really pissed off at JWdom. I see deliberate attempts to hide and whitewash their history. They claim to be lovers of truth, but they don't really want the truth; they only want what makes them look right and backs up their teachings. I spent many years as an uber-dub. I, too, saw the faults among individuals JWs for years, but I thought the overall religion was right even though I always had major questions that were unanswered. Now, I know something is majorly wrong in JW land. I could list many specifics, but just the whole general feel seems wrong now. JWdom is not what it used to be.
Hang around here and help me figure it all out (Bible, God, etc.). Hope to hear more from you.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose a year ago

It's a dilemma, one we all have faced. No one can make that decision for you, each person and their circumstances are different. There is a price to be paid no matter what you do, it's hard living a lie, it takes its toll. It's also hard to lose family and friends, the harsh disfellowshiping policies are there to keep people from leaving, being shunned is very painful.
I am glad I left, I would never go back, but that doesn't work for everyone.






 
smiddy
smiddy a year ago

Welcome cappytan , what folks are saying about taking it slow is the most important thing to do .Learn the truth about the truth , TTATT ,before you even try to communicate these ideas to anyone else .That is to protect yourself from an inquisition by the elders and also to protect your loved ones in the organisation .
You will get plenty of good advice from people who have been in a similar situation as yourself .
I wish you all the best , take care.
smiddy
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a year ago
One bit of advise, don't talk to anyone in or your family about your doubts. Get what you need from people here and do all your research with out them knowing. I mentioned one thing to my wife and she ran off and called the elders. This caused much pain and forced me into a corner that I wasn't prepared for. If I had to od it all over again I would have said nothing and then made changes in my life one my own term and my own time table.
 +1 / -0
happy@last
happy@last a year ago
Welcome here, you may be in for a rough ride.  Tread carefully but never stop asking questions. 
 
jhine
jhine a year ago

Welcome Cappytan ,
         As a neveraJW I cannot advise as to keeping the balance with family and friends and fading succesfully . As a Christian I would point out that your faith in the Watchtower is being shaken and they are being exposed as less than reliable , not the Bible . Many here have become atheists since leaving , and that is their choice . I would just caution against throwing the baby out with the bath water . You mentioned the core basis of faith
God , Jesus , Salvation . If you can look at other points of view about these foundations of faith and other interpretations of the Bible . They may make sense to you . If not at least you will have explored all possibilities . Proceed slowly and give yourself time to adjust to another worldview before making any rash decisions .
            Jan
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome a year ago



◦But, doubting these other details about my faith also makes my faith in those basic things have a shaky foundation as well.
An elder suggested to someone with doubts that maybe through their life they could see evidence of God's help,then he provided examples in his own life.

 
Zoos
Zoos a year ago

You know, that new covenant included a clause wherein God would "put [His] laws in their mind, and in their hearts [He] shall write them."



We're not bound by the contents of the bible. It's okay to graduate, move on, taking what is useful and leaving what is not. If you keep confining yourself to the pages of a book and the mentality of Religion, Inc you're not leaving any room for God to write anything in your heart.
 
Xanthippe
Xanthippe a year ago

What works for some people is to slow down in JW activities and if asked why say you are depressed and confused over all the changes in teachings. Then let your family try and explain overlapping generations etc. to you while you play dumb.
Wish you well at this difficult time. It's hard to keep your mouth shut and let others teach you when you know it's all nonsense but sometimes trying to explain it helps them see it for what it it. As others have said it's your decision how you tackle it because you know your family best and we've never met them. Good luck.



 
Bonsai
Bonsai a year ago

It sounds like your whole support group of family and friends are in the organization.  I'd be in no rush to leave if I were you.  Even if you are just in the process of fading, it completely changes the dynamic of your friendship with your family and friends.  Most of them will not respond well to you bringing up TTATT with them.  Once they know you have done research and have doubts, they will doubt your motives, question your sanity and guard themselves around you..

The wife and I just quit cold turkey a few months ago after first being stumbled locally and then being leveled by our research.  Reading "Crisis of Conscience" was like being hit by a Mack truck.  Losing 90% of your community of friends and family really sucks.  having to jump into the bushes when the elders come to my door isn't fun either.  During this difficult time i wish you the best of luck.  Be innocent like a dove and wise like a serpent.

 

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Losing Faith
by cappytan a year ago 33 Replies latest 5 months ago   jw experiences
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southwest
southwest a year ago

Really appreciate your post cappytan as I'm new here myself. I feel very similarly to yourself, especially RE: 607. To read that Ray Franz (who oversaw the writing of the societies position on 607) didn't think it was based on solid evidence has on it's own destroyed my belief that the organisation is carrying out God's will on earth.
How I'm going to leave though, that is another question.
Anecdotally, word in the area of the UK I'm from is that several young ones have recently 'gone apostate'. I can only see the trend of such ones searching for the truth increasing.
 +1 / -0
EdenOne
EdenOne a year ago

The storyline of Christianity:
Mankind lost its way and strayed from God's righteous family, falling into sin, which brought death and misery; God made provisions to bring back faithful humans back to his family and ultimately either reward them with eternal life on earth or heaven [depending on your flavor]; for that purpose, his heavenly son became human, Jesus, miraculously being born of a faithful jew female; he became a role model of a pious life, taught mankind the way to live a godly life, and finally died a sacrificial death as ransom for our sins. God rose him from the dead, resurrecting him back into heavens, where he was crowned King of God's Kingdom, which will soon put an end to Satan's rule over mankind, and restoring mankind's perfect status for all eternity - amen!
------------------------
This is a wonderful storyline, one that's hard not to feel attracted to. We all yearn to see the end of injustices, we all ask where evil comes from and why does it exists, we all want to see better days, and who doesn't want to live forever young? Christianity provides an answer to those questions, or at least that's what we all used to think at some point.
The very sad reality is - it's just a really compelling story, but it doesn't adhere to reality. The historical Jesus, that man who walked the earth, that Jewish Rabbi whose interpretation of the law departed from that of the Pharisees and Saducees and attracted a devout following - his message was NOT what later generations of Christians made up about him. If the strain of followers [led by James, the Just] that adhered to his teachings more closely had won the theological war, Christianity would have never existed, and Jesus would have been yet another celebrated Rabbi of Judaism, and life would carry on undisturbed. Christianity, as we know it today, is based on an elaborate invention by the apostle Paul and his disciples, who took the original accounts about Jesus and shaped them into something that the Greek-Roman world could accept. (**)
The historical Jesus was never born to a virgin, never had a pre-human existence, was never the Son of God [unless in an adptionist kind of way, at best], his death never acquitted our sins, and he was never resurrected; quite possibly, like most male jews of his day and age, he was married; he never meant to form a new religion or break away from the Torah; his prophecies about a kingdom of God, to be established in Israel within the generation of his disciples, never materialized, thus making him a failed prophet.
THAT, my friend, is the truth about Christianity and Jesus and the Bible. A collection of man-made, highly adulterated and re-shaped, re-written, edited scriptures. I no longer subscribe that an all-powerful God would communicate with mankind through such a crooked book. I still want to believe that there is some kind of creative intelligence that drove the early stages of life, due to some evidence of design in certain features of life, but I find it hard to ever think again about God as a personal entity akin to a father who cares for us, his would-be children. Still, I don't find evidence that convinces me that God - if indeed exists - demands our worship or cares for our well-being.
Question is: Do you still want to remain a Christian in spite of Jesus' historical truths? That's your option. I see value in Christian ethics, but I'm at a loss as to why should I belong to any organized Christian religion (or any other, for that matter) because faith in Jesus dictates my salvation. I can never go back to that way of thinking. I've lost my faith. But I haven't lost my hope.
(**) On this subject, I strongly recommend that you read James Tabor's book Paul and Jesus - How the Apostle Transformed Christianity.
Eden



 
KateWild
KateWild a year ago

Welcome Cappytan,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I couldn't live the lie to keep all my loved ones. I lost a great deal. If I could do it all again I would do it differently.
If you do more research and finish Crisis of Conscience, and check out sites like jwsurvey.org and jwfacts.com you may feel you wish to leave WT. If you do I strongly recommend you build up a circle of friends outside WT before you make your exit.
Trusted work mates, or even start a new hobby. Something to replace what you will lose if you leave. Talk to your wife as well, Combating cult Mind control, by Steve Hassan, is a good book to help you reach your wife. She may be very strongly entrenched in her beliefs. This book will help you understand ways to communicate that will be the least stressful for her. After all if you leave you want to try and take your wife with you.
Take care Cappytan
Kate xx



 
KateWild
KateWild a year ago

Welcome Southwest
Kate xx
 
campaign of hate
campaign of hate a year ago

Welcome
I believe that faith has nothing to do with adherence to a holy book, be it the Greek scriptures the Talmud the Koran etc.
We have free choice (as the WT always says) to pick and choose what we like and believe.
If we have faith in nothing we cease to exist.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy a year ago

Welcome Cappytan , Southwest  and all new Posters here !
Good advice above ! I echo what has been said about taking your time, there is no hurry at all.
Make sure you ask us all that you want to, and eventually make up your mind as to your course of action, which for a long time may in fact be inaction !
Of course once a bell has been rung, it cannot be unrung, so you can never return to the place you were before as a fully believing JW.
You are in the same delicate situation I was in as I woke up and realised that all was not as it was claimed to be in the JW religion.
I can assure you that being hasty in word or deed is simply a bad thing. Take all the time you need, and keep your thoughts to yourself until you are truly ready, and properly equipped, to handle your situation.
Your journey from now on will be an exciting one of discovery,discovering truths, and discovering that real friends are to be found, and that the real life is one of joy.
I wish you and all your fellow travellers down the road to freedom all the very best !



 
cappytan
cappytan a year ago

Hoo, boy. Wish I had read these last night!
First, thank you so much to all for the support. We may not all share the same convictions about the scriptures or Christianity in general, however we all recognize that something is wrong with the organization...that the ring of "truth" is just not there.



Second, if I had read all these thoughts last night, my evening would have gone much differently. I'll elaborate further in a new thread.
 
opusdei1972
opusdei1972 a year ago
cappytan Your experience is somewhat similar of that of mine. After noticing that the Watchtower Society  is a deceptive organization, which tends to minimize its serious errors, I still believed that Jehovah was God and Jesus was our Savior. But after appliying a critical analysis to the Old and New Testament, I had to admit that Yahweh can't be God. The books of the Old Testament have many contradictions and moral problems, which show that there was no coherent god inspiring them.  A loving god can't order you to kill infants (read 1 Samuel 15:1-5). A loving god can't promote revenge (read Numbers 31:1-2).  A genuine god can't proclaim false prophecies (Ezekiel 29:12). This is why I don't believe that the Bible can provide us a trustworthy  guide. 
 +2 / -0
southwest
southwest a year ago
Thank you all and hello!
 
Heaven
Heaven a year ago

Welcome cappytan!
It seems everyone has a certain journey regarding faith where many of us exit.
I used to believe in the invisible, silent, ominipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Sky Daddy too. This is what I was told to believe as a child. We are all molded to believe certain things as children. But as adults, we need to use our critical thinking skills and our intellectual honesty about these beliefs. What is working and what is not? Getting educated about what we've been told versus what is, in reality, fact, is key.
I started my journey of non-belief as a 10 year old girl. The Ethiopian famine of the late 1960s/early 1970s had me questioning the claim that God is loving, merciful, and all-powerful. When one hears day in and day out of thousands of people dying of starvation, one begins to question the voracity of such claims. In other words, what is really happening is NOT substantiating the belief statements. My journey continued as a teenager where I began disagreeing with the Watchtower's doctrine and interpretation of scripture. Two of my biggest issues were, and still are, the misogyny, both religious and Biblical, as well as the strict no-blood policy. I knew as a teenage girl there was no way I could ever subjugate myself to my husband. And I could not fathom for the life of me how a symbol of life (aka blood) could be far more important than life itself.

I used to believe in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus too. But then I grew up. Perhaps losing faith is part of the maturation process..
"Jesus is Santa Claus for adults." -- Christopher Hitchens

 
Miles
Miles a year ago

Heaven,
Christoper Hitchens, lol, I have not heard that name in a long time, loved that guy. Anyhow, it's interesting to see the torture of so many in here. I grew up in the truth but for some reason It never touched me as deep as most of you here. As a matter of fact I could never bring myself to get baptized, which in retrospect was a good thing.
My mother and brother are still going so I still have a connection I guess. It must be so tough to have a spouse that you love still believing in it so much and you are thinking of leaving, I feel for you.




 
Giordano
Giordano a year ago

First off make sure you delete your computer searches on any internet devices you use. A lot of people on this forum have been 'caught' by mates or roommates because of internet use.
Jehovahs witnesses value sincerity........... if you can fake that you've got it made............ for the time being.
The general consensus is to go slow. Take the pressure off of yourself. Your issue is with the WTBTS not with a belief in God, Jesus or even the bible at this time. If that follows.......... it will be like giving up on Santa Claus. One year you were a believer the next your thanking the people who actually gave you a gift. If you never celebrated XMas as a child forget about that last point.
The Society has been very deceptive at times...very dishonest as well as reckless with their two witness rule concerning pedophies, their blood policy, education, the health of their followers and Armageddon.

They coerce their members by promoting shunning. How many leave tomorrow if they dropped the shunning. I think 20 to 30 percent would leave. According to PEW over 60% of born-ins stop attending.
If you look at it carefully you will notice that they have conflated their Bethel culture into their religious teachings. So you can be DF for a wide range of things that isn't mentioned in the NT. However by cherry picking the OT they can keep on adding sin's.
 Their dogma now applies to grooming, health care, marital sex practices, childhood toys. They even frown on two door cars.
Keep in mind that this religion is a 19th century religion nurtured by four deeply troubled Presidents. Russell, Rutherford, Knorr and finally the half mad Freddy Franz. Between the four of them only Freddy had a year or two of college.
Every one of us or just about everyone here has had to move carefully to preserve their marriage and at least a few family members. If and when they sense or find out you are no longer a True Believer.
Don't argue the stuff that witnesses don't care about like 607.
A true religious believer stays within the boundaries of 'rational ignorance'. Rational ignorance occurs when the cost of educating oneself on an issue exceeds the potential benefit that the knowledge would provide.
 Or as Eric Hoffer said “It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary  to make belief possible”.







 
kairos
kairos a year ago

Welcome!
Research is key to successfully undoing the effects of brainwashing/mind control. I must have been spending 3-6 hours a day for a number of months until finding new topics to cover became more effort.
Proving to yourself, using the passage of time and the WT publications as tools makes it simple to show what WT really is.



PM's are of course, always welcome.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 5 months ago

Reviving this thread for all the new ones!
Worth a read!
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
i've always been a "spiritual" person.
i've been an avid bible reader since as early as i can remember.
i read the bible cover to cover for the first time when i was about 17 years old and have read it at least twice more since then.



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Caleb and Sophia get baptized ???
by jwleaks 10 months ago 5 Replies latest 10 months ago   jw friends
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jwleaks
jwleaks 10 months ago

Not yet.
However, over the past few weeks two members of the Governing Body have given talks encouraging young children to get baptized.
Gerrit Losch - France
Mark Sanderson - Germany
If the reports are correct then the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are preparing JW parents to accept their young children getting baptized.
No doubt, soon, very soon, a Caleb and Sophia cartoon will appear in which child baptism will be promoted and encouraged. It appears the seeds are being planted. I shudder.
Suffer the little children.


 +2 / -0
Driving Force
Driving Force 10 months ago

The next progression from there will be infant baptism. Reason being that as parents raising there child in the truth it is only to be expected that they will get baptized when they are older, so why not as an infant.
So if a baby then pukes on and elder he/she will get reproved, doing it a second or third time will cause he/she to be DF'd.

 +1 / -1
Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower 10 months ago
If they have them get baptized they also should have a DF'n sequel one year later and have the parents obeying the GB as far as shunning their own children. This would show the sad reality of those who give everything to the Corporation sic Jehovah's earthly organization..
 +2 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 10 months ago
Too bad Caleb and Sophia's parents are not going to be shown being baptized. I'm sure they are a fine "spiritual" couple and have been baptized for years. Tony "tight pants" Morris could picture buff Daddy in his sexy speedo (Tony would probably like that) and Mommy could be shown getting baptized in her Burka. lol
 +1 / -0
jwleaks
jwleaks 10 months ago

Quote from Mark Sanderson's talk about supporting the Governing Body in relation to young children getting baptized:
"Do you share that viewpoint of the Governing Body? Are you helping your children to become unbaptized publishers and to make their decision at a young age?"
Link to download Mark Sanderson's talk: Child Baptism
 
Generation Me
Generation Me 10 months ago
Following the viewpoint of the governing body...they finally speak about who the sheeple are really following.
 

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How far will they go?
by careful 2 months ago 34 Replies latest 2 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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careful
careful 2 months ago

I've been drawing back lately and looking at the big picture going on in the org, somewhat like slimboyfat has also been doing, but I am wondering about different possibilities. So the current GB has modernized recently in various ways. They have done a strong and sudden about-face regarding the electronic world, from viewing the whole thing suspiciously and condemning bros. use tablets from the platform to suddenly embracing them and causing the R&F to do so to such a degree that old ones are spending hundreds of dollars to buy devices that they have no clue how to use; they have heavily embraced this media for their message, very much like the churches have been doing for years, especially with their JW broadcasting and their Caleb and Sophia animations. They are rapidly embracing "worldly" ways in music with David Splane's pop tunes and their music videos that end each monthly broadcast. Like the churches they have aggressively embraced child baptism and may well be on the way to infant baptism. They have used "worldly" consultants for a variety of things they never would have before: legal matters, construction, financial advice, reorganizing and downsizing their Bethels (cutting the fat, dismissing the costly old-timers).

Sooo my question is this: how far will they go in this vein? Specifically will they finally allow facial hair and cut the conservative dress they are so obsessed with? Before anyone answers "They'd never do that," it might be good to think about how so many here have been surprised at the above-mentioned changes. I imagine that the GB has surprised us all recently with so many changes that many here have commented that they don't even recognize the old religion any more.

 +11 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 2 months ago

My question would be - how does allowing facial hair or being more flexible on dress help them? The modernization helps them by implementing new forms of indoctrination or cost cutting measures, but I don't see how becoming more flexible on other things really helps them directly. Perhaps a case could be made that they might think that the dress/grooming restriction is limiting new membership, but I sincerely doubt that is the case. None of the changes they've made have relaxed their control for no real gain.
I hope they do relax the dress/grooming restrictions, though, because that would be a big step towards the eventual dissolution of the cult, the way I see it. Those controls are a big part of the BITE model that they use to keep members indoctrinated, so if they were to relax things it might allow a few more to wake up and leave. With AMIII at the helm, though, it seems wildly unlikely that will happen.
Changes I see as being more likely is further downsizing, consolidation of KHs and congregations, and further cost cutting measures. Maybe something like allowing online preaching to count so that they can puff up their stats. Things that reduce their costs or liquidate assets are probably going to be the biggest and most likely changes we'll see, IMO.
 +9 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 months ago

Interesting thread.
Supirised though that dress and grooming is a point that to focus on?
There are more serious issues that they need to address and "change" first. Such as judicial committee inappropriateness, and other control techniques...
 +6 / -0
pepperheart
pepperheart 2 months ago
And the other question is how far will they have to go,if i was a rank and file person just what id seen on jw broadcasting and san hurd say about all the cuts i wouldnt be bothered about giving as much and although they have got a very nice christmas box with bethel moving from new york if that is the only money they are getting inn that will not last many years

 
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 2 months ago

I honestly believe that all the radical changes in recent years have actually f**ked the borg in the long run. 'Oldsters' like me do not even recognize this religion anymore as the one they grew up in. To me, all the changes are a sure sign of instability and lack of real leadership. The stupid changes pushed me to take a look at the past which led me to ttatt which led me to freedom. My 'born in' kids see my attitude change and my disregard for the wtbts and it has had a very desirable result on their lives.
Hopefully it will have the same affect on others which it seems to be doing!
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +7 / -0
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 2 months ago

I know it sounds far fetched, but any chance things will get so bad they'll just go "Jim Jones" on everyone?
It'd be hard to pull off large scale, across the whole world, I'd think. But maybe isolated pockets here and there would decide to 'pass the plate,' whereby EVERYONE partakes of the 'wine/special kool-aid.' I shudder to think of such a thing, but that Tony Morris guy seems like just the type to push something like that on JWTV. Especially if things get really bad, such as more lawsuits, daily media exposure all over the news (including CNN's Nancy Grace), desperate mass sell-offs, signs of discontent and a gradual splntering of the Org into other sects.
Any thoughts on this?
 +2 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 2 months ago
They....will go as far as it takes.....to make a buck.
 +6 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 2 months ago

Always wondered about facial hair restrictions. Here we have westerners practicing a Middle Eastern religion telling people to shave. Um, no. Middle Easterners don't shave their beards off and it's THEIR ancestors religion. Trim and neat should be the only requirement.
Also, get rid of jackets and stockings in 85+ degree heat. It's beyond stupid. No one in Africa or the Caribbean/Tropical regions wears that crap in FS.
 +4 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 2 months ago
I believe they will make major changes to the Elder arrangement or eliminate it all together. They will still have "spiritual men", at a local level to handle meetings, collect money, etc... The elders bodies as they exist now! Will be gone or modified just like the TMS.
 +2 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 2 months ago

If they are truly in decline or stagnating as far as membership growth goes in western /Christian lands as been suggested on this board , then I think as indicated by these new attitudes from the G.B. they will indeed need to relax more restrictions on dress and grooming in the R&F., to attract more of the younger generation , why else would they be bringing more modern music , dance into K.H.`s which were once a definite no/no .
They need more bums on seats who will contribute much more needed cash to remain viable.
The old timers are dying off with there conservative attitudes , it`s the younger generation with a more liberal view that is the future for religious growth.
In years gone by they could afford to be more controlling of the young , but not nowadays with the widespread use of the internet they need to loosen the reigns if they want to appeal to the young , which they must do because the young are the key to their future existence.
And I think we are already seeing the beginnings of that trend.
smiddy
 +5 / -0
TheListener
TheListener 2 months ago

I see all the changes they've made so far as business changes. They seem to only change things that affect their bottom line.
If they feel allowing people to dress how they want and to have facial hair would result in higher donations, they will do it.
But I agree with others that once they relax the personal rules that dubs live by all bets are off and that their control using the BITE model won't be able to keep going. I feel that dubs love to be martyrs and pride themselves on standing out in certain ways - dress and grooming being one of them.
 +4 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry 2 months ago


They seem to only change things that affect their bottom line.
This is what it is all about.
Freddie actually believed what the mushrooms were telling him.
These c-unts? (Hey Simon - Have you watched GOT?) Not a chance.
Begging EVERY month.
Follow the money.
Do they have a horrific business model compared to the Mormons?
Not even close.
But these idiots have married themselves to doctrine.
The GB, Service and Writing Committees, have painted themselves into a corner from which there is no exit.
These idiots are going down with the ship, no matter how small that they make the ship in the next few years.

 +2 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd 2 months ago
When I walked out of the KH 3 years ago I would of never in my wildest dreams have guessed that they would be making the changes they are now. Will they change on dress and grooming? Possibly. Will they get new light on blood and disfellowshipping? I doubt it and even if they wanted to I don't think they could change it with out having a revolt on their hands. One thing is for sure it is no longer economically and membership viable to operate how they did less than 3 years ago. So will they let it crash and burn? Time will tell.
 +2 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 2 months ago
I think they'll keep elders. They're not paid reps. (Free management)
 +3 / -0
lumberjack
lumberjack 2 months ago

@careful You complain about modernization and being too conservative at same time? I think conservatism is way to go, but where it only matters. I don't know what's this worldly way in music for example.
 
Lieu
Lieu 2 months ago

Being conservative in habits doesn't mean being a complete bore.
I seriously doubt all those festivals and celebrations in the Bible were solemn quiet boring occasions.
JWs would just die if a GB member pulled a David.
 
sir82
sir82 2 months ago

I can see them allowing "well-groomed" beards at some point in the future.

If they do it, it would probably be a trade-off instituted at the same time as something harsher, to distract the sheep.
Maybe they'll allow beards, but also consider any sort of association with DF'ed family members a DF offense itself, or something similar.

 
brandnew
brandnew 2 months ago

Does anyone know of the dress code , in the carribean?
We are i puerto rico, and i hate seeing pops come home hot, and sweaty!!😠
If its on paper...does anyone know ? Maybe guayaveras, like in the philipines?
Thanks
 
Magnum
Magnum 2 months ago

I don't know how far they will go, but, I think they should turn around and go back to where they were. JWdom used to attract stable, serious, intelligent people - people with depth to them. It used to stand out from other Christian-professing churches and religions, and it attracted sincere people who were turned off by such. It used to be (or at least appear to be) dignified, scholarly, bold, and serious, but not anymore. JWdom will no longer be attractive as it once was, and those it does attract will not be of the caliber of the ones it attracted in the past.
The problem, though, is that JWdom can't really return to where it was because of the internet and because time has run out on its theology and predictions. JWs used to be sort of isolated. They could produce deeper, more analytical publications that awed many and that weren't exposed to scrutiny by outsiders and questioning JWs who could communicate with each other easily. The internet changed that. Now, that wouldn't work. It would be too easy to expose the wrongness of such publications.
So, JWdom can't go back to where it was, and the new JWdom is shallow and churchy and weak and undignified and unscholarly. JWdom, in my opinion, can't win. The glory days are gone forever. I say it will start to go into decline soon.
 +4 / -0
Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 months ago

I was thinking about the technology scenario. Budgeting for such falls to the congregation and individual. The changes strongly suggest downward pressure on costs as does elimination of DO's SP's and reduction of Bethelites.
My congregation was visited by a relatively new and young CO. However, he sounds so institutionalised, bland, repetitive. He was very disparaging of higher education and use of web dating services. He drives a nice new car. Were I in his shoes, I might be somewhat anxious re the security of the CO role bearing in mind the retraction in other personnel grades. After all, CO's do represent a significant cost. Maybe their elimination could be the next cost saving feature. If so, no tears on my part!
I recollect this possibility on another thread with speculation that the role msy be filled by "loyal" and "capable" elders.

 +1 / -0

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How far will they go?
by careful 2 months ago 34 Replies latest 2 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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Island Man
Island Man 2 months ago


brandnew: Does anyone know of the dress code , in the carribean?
I'm not prepared to give my exact location but I live on an island in the southern Caribbean.
Here JWs are taught to dress conservatively and avoid worldly fads. I occasionally see the odd sister wearing shorter than acceptable skirts but it's not the norm and such sisters are invariably regarded by other JWs as not being the most exemplary.
Sisters can't go on the platform wearing pants. Brothers can't do a meeting part on the platform without wearing a jacket. Brothers wear jackets when roving the mikes and doing stage duty. Beards are a no-no. If a brother has a beard he will be spoken to about it. He will not be allowed to have any privileges in the congregation if he's not clean shaven.
One time at a convention I saw a visiting non-JW man enter the door with a stub in his ear (earring). An attendant went up and spoke with him and they both exited the door. A few minutes later the same non-JW re-entered the door without the ear stub. LOL.

 +1 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 2 months ago

When living in Central Am. The local dress shirt in FS, no jacket. The local dress shirt: 2 versions, long sleeve or short sleeve. In FS, no stockings, usually calf level cool skirt or dress. Shoes depend on season. Monsoon, rubber boots. Normal, nice opened toed for the ladies.
In the KH, males will put on a jacket to give a part. That's about it.
Dress in a presentable manner for the climate and customs.
 
Island Man
Island Man 2 months ago
I forgot to mention FS attire where I'm at. Field service attire is the same as KH attire. The only difference is that brothers don't wear Jackets in field service.

 +1 / -0
careful
careful 2 months ago

Thanks to all! Judging from the number and quality of the responses, I think this is the most successful thread I've posted, so I appreciate the input.
OEJ:
how does allowing facial hair or being more flexible on dress help them?
How does Splane's pop music help them? If we say that it is some attempt to increase their appeal and thus increase membership, then doesn't the same reasoning hold for possibly loosening up on the formal dress?
stuck…:
Is pop music or use of "worldly" consultants a "serious issue"? I haven't chosen these but the GB has.
smiddy: thanks for the input. We'll see if they continue following this trend.
listener, berrygerry: How does the pop music change the bottom line? Is that a business change?
lumberjack: I do not see how anything in the OP can register as a complaint. I'm just reporting the org's modern history factually, no emotion, no judging. Then I'm wondering if the future of the trends we see will include changes in dress and grooming. That's all.
Magnum: thanks. Your thoughts are deep and I think I've seen you express them before. You are surely onto something here.
Nicholaus K: Well, maybe, but the CO is their hands-on, mega-loyal link to HQ. Would they give that up for local elders some of whom can be problematic? Of course, you never know…
brand-new and Island Man: I went to the Caribbean while still in, and it was indeed as you, Island Man, put it.
Please keep the input coming.

 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 2 months ago
Meetings in basements, decentralized local governance all on in local Congregations, no reporting to branches. All they want is control of the money, now. People are a pain in the backside.
 +1 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 2 months ago

Allowing facial hair, absolutly. Their some reasons: they get rid of wrong teaching, but this is not the main reason. What do a guy, awake, full in, MS and active to step down without giving a reason and don't get in trouble? Grow beard. What do a guy who like to show that he like to make trouble? Grow beard. What do a guy, who like to show how he thinks about all the stuff without telling to much? Grow beard. Sounds funny, but beard means mainly, you can think on your own and won't be afraid, even if they preassure you, to shave. You rebellious. So, if they say: "Brother's, you can grow beards, if it looks serious. Sisters, sorry, you not :smile:" they maybe start a hype. Something they don't like, but they make a point against the "revolution" from inside. There also some "bearded congs", like my cong. It's interesting to see: if one from the higher once stands up (MS) and grew a beard and nothing happens, there's a hype. The young guys starts also to try to get bearded, after a half year, they can't turn back, or they have no MS and so any more, if all bearded guys have to shave or step down. And I know the MS very well, nobody make stress about it. But he was waiting for it, he was very sad about it :wink:.A lot of people from the cong tells him, that he look much better.
So, grew a beard if you in - we will be part of the "little flock". When it's allowed, you could only be part of the "big flock". :smile:
 +1 / -0
Syme
Syme 2 months ago
While shunning is practiced, no "modernization"; only Dark Ages. All the other minor things are tricks.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 2 months ago

I don't think they've changed all that much. A TV evangelism show. Apathy trollies....not much different from Boozerford's day.
It's all about money and power. The paedophile loving governing body will do whatever brings them the glory, cash and the power to abuse others.....plain and simple.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 months ago

All the best modernization in the world is not going to wash over the lies, corruption and damage this organization has caused humanity.

 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 months ago


berrygerry - "...Freddie actually believed what the mushrooms were telling him..."
:laughing:
 
flipper
flipper 2 months ago
" They will go as far as it takes to make a buck " . What BRANDNEW says- I totally agree, it's all about the money. Lack of transparency so that rank & file JW's will not know what WT leaders are doing with the money. Peace out, Mr. flipper
 
freddo
freddo 2 months ago

They want Control, they want Adulation, they want Dollars. C.A.D. This is the holy trinity of the present governing body today.
The dollars are draining away through their publishing empire costing more than it makes. They are becoming a property empire instead.
So how do they maintain C. A. D?
Control
As has been mentioned CO's (and the service desk) are the enforcers. As long as they have enough of these they can control the empire. So all the printing and support staff can be kicked out. All the paid special pioneers can be downgraded to regular pioneers. DO's are history.
What next? Maybe super circuits?
Two circuits (40 congs - maybe reduced to 36-38 if congs amalgamated) under one CO and one visit a year from him and another six months later from a bigger pool of substitutes CO. This keeps control and gives incentive for position to the wannabe elders, ex-bethelites and special pioneers. Saves dollars too.
Adulation
More GovBodTV electric church. More jw.org. with them in the focus of the camera. Keep regional assemblies for them to visit, hold up a (virtual) publication and use as money spinners. Trumpet on about their HQ lakeside retirement complex.
What next?
I haven't a clue. It's all at a new level of crazy.
Dollars
Keep selling KH's and pruning bethels in the short term - mid-term. Longer term I think they have big big problems with lawsuits. Watch out for changes to procedures that will save money.
I cannot see them having a good money spinner after from when the hi-value property gets sold off and the funds used up.


 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 2 months ago
I thought Gog was to invade the beauteous land before the end.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 months ago

They will go too far, I hope, and wake the majority of JW's up.
Quite how far "too far" is so hard to say, I would have thought that any JW with two sparking brain cells would have left by now, but apparently not so.
Or do none of them have two sparking brain cells ???
 
James Jack
James Jack 2 months ago
We have an open WiFi at our Hall and the COBE told me last week they are looking to block access to all websites except those run by the Branch.
 

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Topic Summary
i've been drawing back lately and looking at the big picture going on in the org, somewhat like slimboyfat has also been doing, but i am wondering about different possibilities.
so the current gb has modernized recently in various ways.
they have done a strong and sudden about-face regarding the electronic world, from viewing the whole thing suspiciously and condemning bros. use tablets from the platform to suddenly embracing them and causing the r&f to do so to such a degree that old ones are spending hundreds of dollars to buy devices that they have no clue how to use; they have heavily embraced this media for their message, very much like the churches have been doing for years, especially with their jw broadcasting and their caleb and sophia animations.



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Convention Cartoon
by freemindfade 10 months ago 42 Replies latest 10 months ago   watchtower bible
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freemindfade
freemindfade 10 months ago

So last night they played the convention cartoon. There were a few laughs from the audience, overall though people seemed a little taken aback and tight lipped. Like no one gushed about it afterwards, no applause, just like it was nothing new at all.
My theory on why they did this, is that they are smart, they have realized that the adults in the org like the Caleb and Sophia cartoons as much OR MORE than the damn kids! So now they are going to appeal to their audience and make some cartoons for the adults.
I feel like the youngest ones in the hall are weirded out by it, and the oldest ones feel alienated. it's all very strange.
 +11 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 10 months ago

I guess I will see the cartoon tomorrow. I would agree that things have gotten really odd lately.
I mean, cartoons? at the hall? really??
 +5 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 months ago
They served popcorn at one of the monthly "showings" of jdubcasting. I shit you not.
 +11 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 10 months ago

@ freemindfade:
Are you serious?!
 +1 / -0
TheListener
TheListener 10 months ago
link?
 
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 months ago

My Name is of No Consequence
serious as a heart attack, that wasn't for the cartoon, but for some monthyl broadcast viewing, i did not go, but was sent a pic
 +1 / -0
tiki
tiki 10 months ago

is this some sort of a joke? cartoons as a teaching aid for adults? if this is for real and not someone yanking our chains, it has got to be one of the most insulting and pathetic things to foist on a serious-minded group of people.
for pete's sake......I just can't believe it.
 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 10 months ago

I just got the weirdest image in my head...
...a cheap Loony-Tunes knockoff theme playing over Caleb and Sophia's little robot friend sticking his face through a hole in the wall, and saying, "abedeea-bedea-bedeaa-that's all, brothers and sisters!"...
...then Sparlock comes out and waves his wand Tinkerbell-style, and everything disappears in a flash.


 +6 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 months ago

One of the most telling things in the video, that really was always talked about in the meeting part it replaced, but is more blaring in the video is that witnesses are inconsiderate assholes.
◦Reminders to tip? WHO NEEDS TO BE REMINDED????
◦Not treating the continental breakfast and ice machine as your personal food bank? No kidding you dumb hicks!
◦Don't eat too much for lunch? talking to the wrong group here...
that part of it makes me ever more embarrassed to be associated with the witnesses, that they really are known for these types of things.
 +8 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 10 months ago

@ freemindfade...
That actually reminds me of an old JW urban legend that I suspect might even be true...
...about a mid-1950s New Yorker commenting in the local newspaper that when the JWs have a convention, they "...come to town with a $20 dollar bill and the Ten Commandments, and don't break either!"
 +10 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 10 months ago


So last night they played the convention cartoon.
I feel like the youngest ones in the hall are weirded out by it, and the oldest ones feel alienated.
it's all very strange.
It`s the WBT$ Attempt at being Cool..
.

Image result for watchtower logo
..............Image result for word cool
.............Image result for trying to be hip
 +3 / -0
SoCal101
SoCal101 10 months ago

I once served on the planning board for our state’s Professional Photographers state convention. During one of our planning meetings it was brought up that only JW’s spent less money than photographers at conventions! Fortunate I knew I was the exception to both cases.
Oh and hint hint! If you plan on going on vacation, obtain the hotel list for the area where you want to go and go as a Witness to get those awesome rates!

 +1 / -0
cappytan
cappytan 10 months ago

For those of you who missed it when Atlantis posted it:





 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 months ago
The squeaking of the pen got really old too hearing that through the KH sound system. An effect better used in shorter videos.
 +2 / -0
cappytan
cappytan 10 months ago

Can we all collaborate and write an alternate parody script for this?
I have the technology to do a quality recording and sync it up with the video.

 +4 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 10 months ago


freemindfade - "I feel like the youngest ones in the hall are weirded out by it, and the oldest ones feel alienated. it's all very strange."
Whoops, I can't believe I missed this bit the first time 'round; damn, they're just covering all their bases, aren't they?
All this does is further reinforce my belief that deep down inside, the WTS wants all the fakers, faders, and fence-sitters to f**k off.
 +1 / -0
Witness 007
Witness 007 10 months ago
Joseph Stalin type cartoon. Very "commie" and creepy like the Sparlock video. They are trying to get hip but it still feels like the 1950's.

 +3 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 10 months ago
cappytan yes!!!! lets break up the scenes and write the dialogue
 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 10 months ago

JWs are a cartoon



 +4 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 10 months ago


Witness 007 - "They are trying to get hip but it still feels like the 1950's."
Figures.
They act like the 1950s in pretty much every other way...
x
@Watchtower-Free...
Whenever I hear the word "sheep" used as an (ostensibly) positive term by a devout religious person, I ask them, "you do know what a sheep's ultimate fate is, don't you?"
 +1 / -0

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Convention Cartoon
by freemindfade 10 months ago 42 Replies latest 10 months ago   watchtower bible
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Illuminated
Illuminated 10 months ago
Could it be they're trying to break out of the mold of appearing like a cult to outsiders?
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 10 months ago


Illuminated - "Could it be they're trying to break out of the mold of appearing like a cult to outsiders?"
Yeah, good luck with that.
 +5 / -0
sd-7
sd-7 10 months ago

On some level, it makes sense the adults would like the cartoons, too, since the leadership reduces them to childlike dependency. Perhaps that's why I still like cartoons so much myself...fascinating...but not these cartoons. How the game has changed. I mean, I know we were being spoon-fed, but this is getting a bit too far out there. I suppose I would credit them for trying to care about young people, except that 'care' means 'recruit', so...I'd really rather not.
--sd-7
 +4 / -0
wannaexit
wannaexit 10 months ago

Two things I noticed from the cartoon:
1. there was no mention of donation
2. sisters should not wear high heals.

 
cappytan
cappytan 10 months ago
There sure was a lot of mentions of "showing appreciation" though. That has been used in the past as JW speak for "donate."
 +2 / -0
Tempest in a Teacup
Tempest in a Teacup 10 months ago

Sorry I'm going to be the party pooper here  but I sure liked the doodles. I'm always doodling so it was a feast to my eyes.
The audience in my hall reacted stupidly. I was praying and hoping that they wouldn't applaud. But a few did; I'd say 10 persons in about 50. Not the frantic ecstatic applause though, a very cold one which lasted for half a second.
The general laughter were forthcoming throughout the show though.

 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 10 months ago

I'm shocked that donations were not mentioned! Well, not really. You see, they save that until the convention accounts reports! Then you have the group pressure to donate! It's actually a form of mass brain-washing!
Its all happy, happy, blessings from Jeehoobidoober/ loaded language/ propaganda and then...WHAMMO!!!!! Oh, BTW.. Jeehobo is broke again!
LET'S REVIEW: STFU AND BE BLESSED!!!
DD
 +1 / -0
freddo
freddo 10 months ago
I'd rather watch that than listen to the crusty old secretary while he wags his finger at us and gives us a lecture from the Kingdumb Misery. But I guess we'll get the cartoon and the lecture on Thursday ...
 
whathehadas
whathehadas 10 months ago

One thing I noticed. There was NO person of color depicted in that cartoon. Yeah they definitely act like it's the 50's. They are still prejudice



 +1 / -1
Tempest in a Teacup
Tempest in a Teacup 10 months ago


whathehadas One thing I noticed. There was NO person of color depicted in that cartoon.
Those were doodles in black and white. How did you come to that conclusion?

 
Oubliette
Oubliette 10 months ago

Personally, I like RSA style animation as a way of teaching.

There are some pretty amazing educational videos that use this technique (see below).
My gripe is not about the form or the format of the message, it's with the content and the manner of the message.
The WTBTS leadership treats its members like children that need to be told how to behave in public.
Let's review: It's a cult!













 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 10 months ago


the leadership reduces them to childlike dependency

The WTBTS leadership treats its members like children that need to be told how to behave in public.
Let's review: It's a cult!
It is one of the tactics of cults to make their followers childlike and dependent. Most of their published material is dumbed down, written at about a third grade level, but intended for adults. And it's often in a condescending voice telling the reader what to think, what to feel, and using lots of fallacies as though they're valid teaching. I suspect that the "simplified study edition" is just a smokescreen to make the regular edition seem "deeper and smarter". In reality, they only seem to switch the wording and vocabulary such that the two editions should really be differentiated as "dumb" and "dumber".
So I guess it shouldn't be a surprised that they're using cartoons like this for teaching adults. Rather than help these people become more responsible adults, indoctrinate them to be obedient children.

 +6 / -0
whathehadas
whathehadas 10 months ago

@Tempest In a Teacup I can tell by the facial features. It's not hard to distinguish



 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 10 months ago

The WTBTS leadership treats its members like children that need to be told how to behave in public.
Anytime that "rules of behavior" are put in place, a person knows that those 'rules' have already been broken.
It is why the 'rules' are being reinforced - because complaints have been made. Every rule that the WTS is emphasizing in their cartoon is the result of complaints received.
And yes, like other posters have mentioned, the cartoon has a '50s feel and look to them. Which goes right along with the resurrection of old marketing techniques that were successful back in the 30s and 40s and 50s. Today's ipads are yesterday's phonographs and today's jw..org broadcasts are yesterday's JW radio broadcasts. Today's Caleb and Sophie are yesterday's "Children of the King."
Wash, rinse, and repeat.
 +6 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 10 months ago

This format is the GB's way of saying
We tell you this stuff every year and you still don't get it. Do we have to draw you dumb asses a picture!
 +11 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 10 months ago

How condescending!!
Cult-like indeed! No normal person would sit through a presentation that treats them like idiots....
 +4 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 10 months ago


Oubliette - "The WTBTS leadership treats its members like children that need to be told how to behave in public."
Well, considering how some of its members act in public... :smirk:
 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 10 months ago

"Cult-like indeed! No normal person would sit through a presentation that treats them like idiots.."
Looking back, it was that very feeling, that I was being treated like an idiot, that got me investigating, and eventually led me here.
I said some years ago that those who remain JW's are either idiots, or wish to remain, either way, they are idiots.*
* Idiots in the sense of Dostoevsky's Novel, "The Idiot", i.e not really suited for this World, better off in a Sanitorium.
 +1 / -0
humblepotato
humblepotato 10 months ago

It went over surprisingly well at my hall. (But we are mid-westerners after all!)  Nobody, that I know of, seemed embarrassed of it, or even offended by it. But now that I think of it... it IS really condescending! Teaching adults with cartoons? Really Watchtower?
I do wonder what is going through the minds of the older ones who survived the Fred Franz era as these videos and cartoons are being shown in the Kingdom Halls... hmmm.... In my old Hall, there are even ones who came into the truth during the Rutherford days...
This isn't your grandpa's religion!
 +2 / -0
Saltheart Foamfollower
Saltheart Foamfollower 10 months ago

..........and just in case you missed it, the cartoon will be shown again a week or so before your convention (if the elders remember)
SF

 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
so last night they played the convention cartoon.
there were a few laughs from the audience, overall though people seemed a little taken aback and tight lipped.
like no one gushed about it afterwards, no applause, just like it was nothing new at all.



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Convention Cartoon
by freemindfade 10 months ago 42 Replies latest 10 months ago   watchtower bible
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Oubliette
Oubliette 10 months ago

I just talked to a local JW and they said it wasn't shown in their hall.
Is this only being shown just before a DC?
 
sd-7
sd-7 10 months ago

Okay, finally got around to watching this video. The intended audience is clearly adults, right? I mean, right? It's a clever way to get the information across without boring people to death with an entire Service Meeting part on it, so I'll credit them on that. (They'll still have that boring Service Meeting part, I'm sure.)
But the implications here--so they expect JWs to dress as if they're literally at the convention the entire time?? Ha ha! I never did that. It's freaking a hundred degrees outside and I'm going to sit around in my dress clothes all night after I sat around in them all day? HA HA HA HA HA! Go flock yourself. You have no Biblical basis for those orders, so I felt perfectly free to ignore them even as a JW. Oh, and remember the day's text this week about God being impartial and seeing more than the outward appearance? So much for that!
Still trying to figure out who would want to be waiting outside the convention at 7:50 a.m. After driving half the day to get there, I'd be lucky to wake up before 7, much less be there before 8.
Sadly, I actually did enjoy the program when I believed in it--though I found certain things they said to be a bit extreme--but the process of getting there made the whole thing a pain in the behind. I was always too tired to enjoy it anyway. I did occasionally notice when they cut and paste whole paragraphs straight from Watchtower articles. Why not just reread the old magazines and save your money?
Well, thanks for sharing it. It's nothing worth commenting much on, the cartoon, I mean. I actually think it's better than how they usually present this same information every flocking year.
--sd-7
 +1 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 10 months ago


Still trying to figure out who would want to be waiting outside the convention at 7:50 a.m. After driving half the day to get there, I'd be lucky to wake up before 7, much less be there before 8.
Normally, I'd just try to get there about a half hour before it started. Only a couple of conventions did I have to get there really early before the doors officially opened because I was an attendant or sound duty. It was weird that there were maybe a couple of hundred that were lined up before the doors were opened. Maybe a handful were nutty enough to run and get into shoving matches to get a particular front aisle seat or something. And some of them totally freaked out because they saw that some attendants and others in departments that had to be there early had already saved some seats for their families.
 

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Topic Summary
so last night they played the convention cartoon.
there were a few laughs from the audience, overall though people seemed a little taken aback and tight lipped.
like no one gushed about it afterwards, no applause, just like it was nothing new at all.



Related Topics
Simon
Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon 5 months ago
OrphanCrow
Deaf Aotearoa flooded with complaints about Jehovah's Witness church
by OrphanCrow 5 months ago
John Aquila
I talked to an elderly lady, but she is not a Jehovah’s Witnesses
by John Aquila 6 months ago
Tornintwo
Neglect of Adolescents by the WTBTS - Excellent Article
by Tornintwo 5 months ago
dubstepped
Life After Disassociation (or really leaving by any means)
by dubstepped 12 days ago



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Fun with Caleb and Sophia.
by ToesUp 6 months ago 32 Replies latest 6 months ago   social humour
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ToesUp
ToesUp 6 months ago

This photo was on a pro JW website! Unbelievable!!!



 +5 / -2
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 months ago

WTH! Do they have a pedophile merchandise shop now?
 +11 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 6 months ago
Why does the word pedophile come to mind? lol
 +5 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 6 months ago
sparrowdown that's hilarious
 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 6 months ago

Caption for the OP:
"I love ALL the children in my congregation!"
 +4 / -0
SuziDrums
SuziDrums 6 months ago

"Pedophile" was my first thought as well.
Is he drooling?
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 6 months ago
Barf
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 months ago
JW PedoMerch-R-Us.
 +1 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 6 months ago
JW Barbie and Ken.
 +1 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 6 months ago

He sleeps buck naked with those dolls, but I'm sure he's a great Watchtower Study Conductor.



 +3 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 6 months ago
Why are those two on his shirt upside down?
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 months ago
Just don't allow your Caleb and Sophia dolls to hang out with your sparlock in the same toybox -Sparlock is bad association.
 +7 / -0
goingthruthemotions
goingthruthemotions 6 months ago

ped alert...OMG. Imagine what he does to those poor dolls. kind of like when my dog humps his bed. LOL.
what a POS....is it possible to find out where this creep is located and what hall?
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 months ago
The GB are really gonna regret creating those damn characters one day.
 +1 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 6 months ago
I bet that sod puts those dolls in compromising positions and acts out fantasies when he's all alone.
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 months ago

How can he not see how creepy this makes him look??
Oh, that's right he's a JW, they have no mirror.
 +2 / -0
Dumplin
Dumplin 6 months ago
That man ain't got the decency to die
 +0 / -1
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 months ago

Could you imagine if a Catholic Priest posted a picture of himself with dolls - the JWs and the media would be all over it - and rightly so.
What's with the utter blindness of these people's sensibilies??
 +3 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 6 months ago
They truly love in their own world. Somehow he managed to make cartoon characters aimed at indoctrinating children even more creepy.
 +3 / -0
Listener
Listener 6 months ago
Here kiddy kiddy, would you like one of these?
 +2 / -0

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Fun with Caleb and Sophia.
by ToesUp 6 months ago 32 Replies latest 6 months ago   social humour
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millie210
millie210 6 months ago
Completely creepy.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 6 months ago
"Show me on the Caleb doll where the elder touched you..."
 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 6 months ago


xjwsrock - "Why does the word pedophile come to mind?"
It's the 'stache.
 +2 / -0
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 6 months ago

Awwwww. . . .Come on, you cynical apostate bastards!
That's just good ole Brother McFeeley!
 +5 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 6 months ago

.............................Image result for Watchtower logo
........................................Clothing and Accessories..
..................For the Fashionable Jehovahs Witness Pedophile..
.

............WBT$ Caleb & Sophie..........................WBT$ Caleb & Sophie..
...... "CHILD BAIT" Shirt..$29.95................... "CHILD BAIT" Dolls..$9.95..



.
.

..You May Be a Sicko JW Pedophile.....But.....You Can Still Look Good!..
.........With WBT$ Approved "CHILD BAIT" Clothing And Accessories..
...........................Image result for JW .Org Broadcasting
 +12 / -0
mana11
mana11 6 months ago
This seems just SICK,,, nice one Outlaw!

 +1 / -0
possum
possum 6 months ago
Isn't that idol worship??? creepy at best
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 6 months ago

Are those pics FOR REAL?
If so, I am literally dumbfounded!
 
tiki
tiki 6 months ago
For real??? What guy in his right mind would be caught dead in that shirt!!! It is just plain SICK!!!
 +1 / -0
Aprostate Exam
Aprostate Exam 6 months ago

As a psych major. This guy wants to portray a youthful appearance not only with the shirt, but also with the boy haircut. Sick bastard! Bring him to El Paso!!!!
 +1 / -0
Oubliette
Oubliette 6 months ago
Major creepy!

 
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 6 months ago
I wonder if he wears a Caleb and Sophia necktie to the meeting or out in service ?

 
Jaidubdub
Jaidubdub 6 months ago
Well that's disturbing...
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
this photo was on a pro jw website!
unbelievable!!!.
.



Related Topics
LogCon
Sophia talks to her Mother
by LogCon a year ago
LogCon
Caleb talks to his mother about the new system.
by LogCon a year ago
LogCon
Caleb prepares for the New System.
by LogCon 2 years ago
Esse quam videri
Caleb's Logic - Do the math
by Esse quam videri 8 months ago
SAHS
Cross & Crown Logo In New WT.org Video For Children?
by SAHS a year ago



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Caleb and Sophia... Run... They're Alive
by Seeking agape a year ago 16 Replies latest a year ago   social humour
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Seeking agape
Seeking agape a year ago




 +1 / -1
Seeking agape
Seeking agape a year ago
I just saw this.... It's truly creepy. So much for not making idols
 +3 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a year ago

I'm just so, so glad my kids don't have to be exposed to this crap.
im curious what the typical witness over the age of 10 really thinks of these cartoons.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 a year ago

What the typical witness over the age of 10 really thinks of these cartoons:
"How loving of Jehovah God to provide through his earthly organization warm and uplifting provisions for His people late into the closing minutes of this wicked and dangerous system of things".
 
 +3 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a year ago
What large heads those children have.
 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing a year ago

I fully expect to soon see children going to school with those two creepy kids on their backpacks and lunch boxes with the slogan "Listen, obey and be blessed" on it.
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago
Caleb and Sophia are really interesting coming from the same group that forbid designs or logos on tee shirts while you mow their lawns and clean their buildings for free as part of their volunteer work force.
 +3 / -0
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut a year ago
Pretend Christians and Cartoon characters, passing out comic books, about a made up religion, in a make believe town. Yep....sounds about right.

 +7 / -0
steve2
steve2 a year ago

Cartoon characters have an easier time maintaining pearly white smiles. Nothing is too much trouble. Service is a joy.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a year ago

Steve I wasn't clear but I was thinking more of the cynical preteen/teen type than the adult witness who thinks they're so cute.
I always said, the should make picture books about bible stories....instead of just one picture per story like the yellow one. But I never, ever would have thought they would do THIS.
i love veggie tales but this is disgusting. I guess because it has a disgusting manipulative self serving message behind it.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

How do you spell MANIPULATIVE PROPAGANDA.!!??
"look how happy we are to willingly give up our life for a make believe faith!"
 +4 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a year ago
And they wonder why the brothers prefer Disneyland.
 
smiddy
smiddy a year ago

Kids with big heads and small bodies such as Sophie and Caleb ?
They are obviously Anorexic and in need of professional help , which does not seem to be coming from any adults in this religion .
smiddy
 +1 / -0
stillin
stillin a year ago
I wonder if there are Caleb and Sophia t-shirts that I could wear to a Kingdom Hall workday. Wouldn't I be fashionable!
 +1 / -0
Tempest in a Teacup
Tempest in a Teacup a year ago


im curious what the typical witness over the age of 10 really thinks of these cartoons.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago
The selfie with Anthony Morris III was weirder.
 +1 / -0
Designer Stubble
Designer Stubble a year ago
I no longer recognize this religion that I wasted decades of my life in. Do you?
 +4 / -0

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Caleb and Sophia visit Bethel for the last time - Photo Gallery
by processor 2 years ago 22 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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processor
processor 2 years ago



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Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

Just wonderful ! Thanks for giving me a real laugh !
 
Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane 2 years ago

Caleb's father's pants are way too tight in my opinion. I feel stumbled by this, so I'm emailing Anthony Morris III right now.
 
Heaven
Heaven 2 years ago

Processor strikes again. Frickin' hilarious!
 
Pinku
Pinku 2 years ago

It's too wonderful--what a dynamism you displayed!
 
pixel
pixel 2 years ago

Thanks for the laugh!
 
Simon Morley
Simon Morley 2 years ago

Where is Sparlock?
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 years ago

Jesus H christ, so glad i am out.
 
processor
processor 2 years ago


Where is Sparlock?

Sorry, shall not happen again!


 
warehouse
warehouse 2 years ago

these are epic, i'm dying in laughter
 
compound complex
compound complex 2 years ago

you're a pro!
!
CC
 
Beautiful Dreamer
Beautiful Dreamer 2 years ago

And they all lived happily after the cult!!!!
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 years ago

SO AWESOME!!!!

Thanks for the laughs!!!

You are a legend processor!
 
rebel8
rebel8 2 years ago

AWESOME
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 years ago

What a fiiine job you did there brother.
But for your next assignment maybe you could work on sarcasm.
 
Steve_C
Steve_C 2 years ago

Just the laugh I needed this morning
 
stillin
stillin 2 years ago

Love the Queen song! Little Caleb discovers Freddie Mercury. Hahaha!
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 years ago

We should parody EVERY one of the stupid Caleb and Sofia videos!?!?
 
processor
processor 2 years ago


We should parody EVERY one of the stupid Caleb and Sofia videos
I was considering that :wink:
 
Oubliette
Oubliette 2 years ago


Pretty funny, thanks for sharing.
 

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Caleb and Sophia visit Bethel for the last time - Photo Gallery
by processor 2 years ago 22 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane 2 years ago

Why does Caleb say "When I grow up, I want to go the Bethel" at the end of this video?
Doesn't he know that "The End" is just around the corner (again) and he will never grow old in this system of things?
 
processor
processor 2 years ago


Doesn't he know that "The End" is just around the corner (again) and he will never grow old in this system of things?
Will there be no Bethels in the new world?
 
mana11
mana11 a year ago






 

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Caleb and Sophia pay attention at the meetings!
by processor a year ago 6 Replies latest a year ago   social humour
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processor
processor a year ago







































































































































 +7 / -0
Simon
Simon a year ago

Awesome, LOL
:thumbsup:
 
cappytan
cappytan a year ago
LOL love how the mom is wearing a Sparlock t-shirt.
 +3 / -0
pixel
pixel a year ago
One word: Hilarious.

 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

AWESOME!!!!!
You have made my day!!
Very funny and so very clever!!!!!!!
Thankyou!!!!
 
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle a year ago
That is awesome!
 
Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower a year ago
Hilarious
 

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Caleb Spoofs
by Smiles a year ago 12 Replies latest a year ago   social humour
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Smiles
Smiles a year ago

Made these Caleb & Sophia spoofs in honor of AM3 and his cronies at WBTS.
Enjoy.
Smiles
http://goo.gl/ptzKRM
http://goo.gl/VUrVCc
http://goo.gl/UxmEBJ
http://goo.gl/xMtRdP
http://goo.gl/bOvPsi

 
Smiles
Smiles a year ago

JWN had an odd method for uploading images directly to a post.
If anyone knows the trick to post images here, please IM, or post
the five spoof images elsewhere as you wish. Thanks.
 
Divergent
Divergent a year ago

What spoofs? Don't see anything...
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Very cool!
Love your work!
 
Smiles
Smiles a year ago

Thanks, Stuck.
Feel free to share them, if it won't get you into trouble with the elite.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Again, it's sad that most witnesses wouldn't even know what bethsarim was?
The irony and joke would be lost on them.....
 
wannabefree
wannabefree a year ago

Nice work.
 
LogCon
LogCon a year ago

Visiting a drone manufacturing plant would be much more exciting to a young fella like Caleb. Perhaps the Society could negotiate a contract to produce drones at Bethel. With all the free labour a tidy profit could be had.
 
jwleaks
jwleaks a year ago

Cheers
 
KateWild
KateWild a year ago

Nice job, very funny. Kate xx
 
Smiles
Smiles a year ago

@LogCon:
Here is a Drone spoof! lol
http://goo.gl/w1M9Ch
 
MightierThanTheSword
MightierThanTheSword a year ago


Perhaps the Society could negotiate a contract to produce drones at Bethel
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Bethel already does :wink:
 
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub a year ago

If they would just use the GB members as cartoon characters. God that would get the childrens attention and be quite hilarious at the same time.
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 

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"Pray Anytime" - The Watchtower has a hit!
by donuthole 3 years ago 14 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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donuthole
donuthole 3 years ago

I was browsing YouTube and it was interesting to see lots of JW covering the new Caleb/Sophia song "Pray Anytime". They need to add this to the songbook. Here is one of my favorites.




 
cedars
cedars 3 years ago

Wow, and they call US mentally diseased!!




Cedars
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 3 years ago

I have just been a little bit sick in my mouth. I was so much happier before I knew about this fad.
 
Kojack57
Kojack57 3 years ago

That was sick as hell. And Gods name is not Jehovah its Yahweh.
 
sd-7
sd-7 3 years ago

"Pray to the LORD GOD
Don't pronounce his name"
--Thus declares Christendom,
Of Him ashamed.
The name of Jehovah
We'll use when we pray
At Armageddon
The wicked he'll slay.

Pray to Jehovah
While on the school bus
And at lunchtime
In caf-e-ter-i-as.
Your sandwich is still there,
So open your eyes.
He who does steal it
Will be one who dies.

Pray to Jehovah
In Fam'ly Worship.
For all temptation
You'll be well-equipped!
Thus in our worship
May we take great pride
Knowing Jehovah's
Name is sanctified!

--sd-7
 
SkyGreen
SkyGreen 3 years ago

i tried to help her out.... poor, deluded, socially awkward (im guessing) young lady. Props to Cedars and Anthony for being sweet to her. I feel I may have been a LITTLE sarcastic....
 
finally awake
finally awake 3 years ago

LOL SD-7, can you post a video of yourself singing that version? Or you know, just email me a sound clip so I can make it my ringtone? I think it would go perfectly with Cedar's Sparlock song, which Just Ron uses as my special ringtone.
 
SkyGreen
SkyGreen 3 years ago

As a little girl I LOVED singing the original "pray to jehovah each day" song. I just loved singing.
SD-7 i love your version. When I get the hang of youtube, i might have to upload a sound clip singing it. Without a bird on my shoulder. And I'll blow my nose first....
 
dazed but not confused
dazed but not confused 3 years ago





 
scotoma
scotoma 3 years ago

I'm going to step in here at this point because so many on this board are afraid of offending other posters.
How insensitive! Why are you ridiculing a childs faith? I have a sense of humor, but the remarks of Cedar are a subtle type of bullying.
How would you like to be that girls mother. How would she explain Cedar's comment if for some reason someone showed these posts to the girl.
"And they call us mentally diseased"! What is the insinuation here Cedar? The little girl is mentally diseased? Is that what you were suggesting?
How many children do you have Cedar? What's so strange about a kid singing a praise song. Is it any stranger than adults singing songs to their Sky Father. Or are you sensing as one of the posters suggested "social awkwardness".
Yeah let's poke fun at the socially awkward like all the bullys.
Cedar, I'm wondering about your sincerity in helping the downtrodden. It seems you have an ornery disposition and you simply have found a convenient vehicle to vent.
 
sd-7
sd-7 3 years ago

I'm going to step in here at this point because so many on this board are afraid of offending other posters.
Are they, now? Hadn't noticed THAT particular problem! But since this was directed at cedars, I'll not comment further on it...
I haven't made any YouTube videos...that would be nice to do, been meaning to get around to it. But I don't tend much to my YouTube account, and my playlists would totally offend most JWs...or get them hooked on swimsuit models...oh, wait, they already are, it's the Internet...
--sd-7
 
RayPublisher
RayPublisher 3 years ago

I posted a positive comment on her video, and I meant what I said.
To me that is all I need to do- if she wants to click over to my channel or to Cedars then she can and perhaps she will become a more open-minded person as a result.
Just by showing the Dubbs that we of the "dissenting class" (lol) are not crazy bug-eyed apostates could be the simplest way to erode their faith in the WT.
 
SkyGreen
SkyGreen 3 years ago

Fair point scotoma.
she is actually kind of adorably innocent. made me almost wish to be back to the time I was much the same..
 
Finally-Free
Finally-Free 3 years ago

I liked it. Nice kid, cute voice, cute bird. Kind of makes me wish I was a dad, but it's too late for an old, fat, cranky bastard like me.
W
 
Anony Mous
Anony Mous 3 years ago

@scotoma - Religion and being religious in general is a mental disease. If you didn't attach the word religion to such actions, you would be hospitalized or at the very least encouraged to seek help for talking to or about non-existing entities.
As far as the song:

At Armageddon The wicked he'll slay.

He who does steal it Will be one who dies.
Yeah - that IS very, very disturbing. Stealing a sandwich from someone will get you killed. When this kid is going to get her sandwich stolen, she'll declare Armageddon and come out and mass-murder everyone?
 

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