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Text of Guy Pierce Memorial
by Red Piller 2 years ago 19 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Red Piller
Red Piller 2 years ago

Guy Pierce was born into a large Mormon family. His mother and father were Jack Mormons, sympathetic to the Mormon faith but not veD/ active. AfterWorld War ll, his parents moved from Utah to California, where Guy was born on November 6, l934.When he was eight years old, his grandmother wanted three of her grandchildren to be baptized in the Mormon Church. But Guy chose to "disappear" that day because he thought that all religion, especially Mormonism, was nonsense. During the summer months, Guy stayed with his relatives in Provo, Utah. During one visig when he was about 17, he heard the truth for the first time. His uncle had allowed two special pioneers to park their trailer on his property. Some of Guy's cousins were studying with theWitnesses, and Guy listened in. He knew it was the truth when he first heard it, but being young, he did not immediately do an),th¡ng about it. A few years later, he decided to walk into a Kingdom Hall, where he asked for a study. From that time on, he never looked back. He was baptized in l955.There was family opposition from all sides.They called him the black sheep of the family. Guy replied:"You have the right animal, and I dont care what color it is." He persisted in sharing the truth with his family. One day he decided to use a different tactic. He asked his relatives to give him a reason to believe in Mormonism, which they could not do. Guy's mother and one of his sisters eventually came into the truth. Guy married a woman who had two children, whom he adopted, and together they had two more children.They were divorced after some of the older children left home.ln 1977 he married Penny,who was a single mother with two children of her own. ln his years of raising a family Guy experienced a divorce, raised his adopted children, his own children, and his stepchildren
Guy wove the truth into everything. Once, while he and his son were fixing the family car,Guy said: "This carwould run like a clock if we could justget it lined up with Jehovah's laws." Later, Guy would tell traveling brothers who felt that they were busy that he had never been busier than he was when he was raising a famil¡ working full-time, and also caring for the congregation. Still, he found time to pioneer whenever he could. He never made a decision without considering how it would affect his worship. Because of his fine example, many others in his family entered the full-time service and did relief work. ln 1982, with only one son left at home, Guy and Penny decided to regular pioneer again. ln 1986, Guy was invited to do circuit work. ln 1997, Guy and Penny were invited to Bethel, where one of their sons was already serving. ln 1998, Guy was appointed to be a helper to the Personnel Committee, and he was appointed to the Governing Body in 1999.
We remember Guy for his infectious warm smile, his twinkling blue eyes, his mischievous look, his constant effort to convey the truth accurately, and his zeal and love for Jehovah. Penny will treasure the many years that they read the Bible and theocratic publications together every morning for 45 minutes before their day began. Now Guy has been given a more glorious assignment, one where he can serve without imperfection or limitations in energy. He can be in the presence of his great God,Jehovah,and be with his brothers,the 144,000. As you remember Guy and his happy life in Jehovah's service, please close your eyes for a moment and reflect on all the future blessings that Jehovah has in store for everyone who serves Him, whether in heaven or on earth.
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

Parody
 
snowbird
snowbird 2 years ago

Presumptuousness, personified.
Sylvia
 
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 2 years ago

A company man all the way!
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

A few adjectives missing from that obit, for some odd reason:
Kind
Generous
Intelligent
Loving
Thoughtful
Caring
Empathetic
Devoted parent / grandparent

And so on.
You'd think a eulogy for one of your top dogs would have something more positive to say than

"infectious warm smile, his twinkling blue eyes, his mischievous look, his constant effort to convey the truth accurately, and his zeal and love for Jehovah."
Shoot, most cats have the majority of those attributes.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 2 years ago

Wait. Is this for real?
 
insearchoftruth
insearchoftruth 2 years ago

Below is from JW.ORG
MARCH 20, 2014 | GLOBAL NEWS


Guy H. Pierce, Member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Dies
NEW YORK—Guy H. Pierce, a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses at their world headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, died on Tuesday, March 18. He was 79 years of age.
Mr. Pierce served on various committees that supervise activities related to the Witnesses and their international Bible-education work. His organizational responsibilities required that he travel extensively, and he used these occasions to provide encouragement for Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout the world. Despite his workload, he was well-known for never being too busy to listen to those needing assistance or advice, and he put others at ease with his warm smile and good sense of humor. His closest associates noted that people from different backgrounds or cultures were naturally drawn to him. In a discourse at a graduation program for full-time ministers, Mr. Pierce made remarks that he was known to exemplify: “Be firm for right principles, but be flexible. Do not look down on those in your assignment because their culture is different.”
Guy Hollis Pierce was born in Auburn, California, on November 6, 1934. He was baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses on August 14, 1955, at the age of 20. He married a fellow Witness, Penelope (Penny) Wong, on May 30, 1977, and the two raised a family together. Mr. and Mrs. Pierce became full-time Bible instructors (referred to by Witnesses as regular pioneers). Later, he became a traveling minister of Jehovah’s Witnesses, visiting congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout the United States to provide spiritual encouragement to other full-time Bible instructors and local congregation members. In 1997, the Pierces were invited to work full-time at the United States branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses. On October 2, 1999, Mr. Pierce was announced as a new member of the Governing Body.
Mr. Pierce was the chairman for the 129th annual meeting of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, on the weekend of October 5 and 6, 2013. A total audience of 1,413,676 in 31 countries attended the event either in person or via webcast. According to the Witnesses’ official website, this was the largest gathering of Jehovah’s Witnesses to date.
In addition to his wife, Penny, Mr. Pierce is survived by his six children, several grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. He will also be fondly remembered by Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world whom he regarded as family.
In a statement, his fellow members of the Governing Body commented on “his solid faith and firm stand for Jehovah’s laws and principles,” adding: “Our memories of his courageous and faithful earthly life course will continue to strengthen us for years to come.”
Media Contact(s):
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago


Wait. Is this for real?
Topic is "text of Guy Pierce Memorial", so I read that to mean a transcription of the non-standard part of his JW funeral talk.
 
Red Piller
Red Piller 2 years ago

I forgot the intro:

Saturday, March 22, 2014
Opening Prayer: Troy Snyder II
Memorial Discourse: Mark Sanderson
Closing Prayer: Hermanus van Selm
It seems real....

 
Red Piller
Red Piller 2 years ago

I forgot the intro:

Saturday, March 22, 2014
Opening Prayer: Troy Snyder II
Memorial Discourse: Mark Sanderson
Closing Prayer: Hermanus van Selm
It seems real....

 
Londo111
Londo111 2 years ago

Out of one cult and into another...
It’s so ironic about the “family opposition” he received and being called a “black sheep” when leaving the Mormon religion…part of his job was promoting treatment of other people the same way when they leave the JWs...
 
BU2B
BU2B 2 years ago

Yet another double-standard (do as we say not as we do). The funeral talk outline specifically states NOT to eulogize the deceasced, instead to use the occasion as an opportunity to reach non-JW in attendance. For higher ups like Mr Pierce, its a whole nother ball game. They are inderectly saying his life counts for much more than the average pioneer.
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 years ago

So Guy Pierce, his mother and sister apostatized from the Mormon faith. Wonder if they were df'd, given public reproof or otherwise labeled as bad association.
So Guy Pierce, his mother and sister were apostates!
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 years ago

I have known many a Mormon family. Mormons have always been known for having 'family worship night'. That is what helps Mormons have such strong family ties.
Ever wonder where the recent WT idea of JWs having a formal 'family worship night' came from? Isn't it strange that Guy Pierce being brought up in a Mormon environment, then becoming a GB of JWs-that JWs now have a 'family worship night'?
What's that expression...'You can take a man out of the ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of the man'!
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 years ago

Sorry for the duplicate posts. The summit button got stuck.
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 years ago

Sorry!
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 years ago

Sorry!
 
Simon Morley
Simon Morley 2 years ago

Watch for another "generation" defying Sanderson appointment to the GB
 
mzmmom
mzmmom 2 years ago

So, with the changes, he wasn't annointed until 1999, only two years after being invited to bethel. I feel lost trying to figure this out?
ln 1997, Guy and Penny were invited to Bethel, where one of their sons was already serving. ln 1998, Guy was appointed to be a helper to the Personnel Committee, and he was appointed to the Governing Body in 1999.
He can be in the presence of his great God,Jehovah,and be with his brothers,the 144,000.
 
daringhart13
daringhart13 2 years ago

I knew Guy personally. I hadn't heard this news yet....
 

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Anyone with a Mormon background? Wedding with a non-believer.
by jam 3 years ago 10 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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jam
jam 3 years ago

Ok here's the deal. I posted previous about my son and his Mormon girlfriend. Well they are now planning to get married.
Can a Mormon elder ( not sure what they are called) perform the marriage or will he. Her parents (Mormons) seem to be ok with it.
My son told me , they would prefer to have a small wedding and a reception later.
The problems, first of all we have a large non-JW family not sure the size of her family but our family alone over 100 members.
My son don't attend any religious organization, so it doesn't matter to him who perform the marriage. I'm wondering about his girlfriend and her side of the family.
The reception, that will be another problem. I would love to see his JW mom attend and other JW family members but I doubt it.
Will Mormons( other then family) attend a reception for a fellow believer with a non-believer. I would hate to see these two young people hurt on the most important date of their lives.
My heart tells me it will not turn out well, I hope I'm wrong.
 
JeffT
JeffT 3 years ago

Back about 1976 my wife's half sister married a Mormon. I don't think she had any religious preference, the parents were studying with JW's at the time. So they ended up with a JW elder performing the service in my in-laws back yard, attending by JW's, Mormon's and various friends and relatives. I believe they had a private Mormon service later, she ended up converting and they had a temple wedding a few years later.

About all I can say is hope for the best, brace for the worst.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Very little Mormon experience, here. I had an acquaintance who developed an allergy to chocolate. It was forbidden, so he used to indulge behind the barn. Nasty, secret habit.
My nephew married the daughter of Catholic missionaries, but the Catholic church would not perform the ceremony as he was not baptized! They ended up in a church service with a non-denominational pastor. The cultural divide at the reception was even more embarrassing. There were two buffet tables; one of Hungarian dishes, the other East Indian. His mother would not compromise on a single dish.
 
jam
jam 3 years ago

Thanks Jefft: yes I'm bracing for the worst.
Jgnat: That,s what I'm afraid of, an embarrassing reception.
One buffet table for JW's and one for Mormons.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Heck, there aren't a lot of dietary restrictions between the two cults. Just stay away from cocoa and caffeine.
I'd suggest pep-talking all the cult relatives to treat all strangers as a possible convert. Show off their side as the cleanest, most pleasantest, most reasonable, least cult-like...
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

I'm a Mormon and will attempt to answer your questions.
Normally, in a civil LDS wedding, the local Bishop will perform the wedding; however, anyone holding the higher priesthood should be able to perform the service as long as they are recognized by the state.
You shouldn't have any problems mixing LDS and other religions, and I think you'll find they're great people. Only don't get them drunk! (just kidding) All should go smoothly. If you have any further questions, send me a PM and I'll attempt to answer them.
Good luck and congratulations.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Former mormon here.
The person who performs the wedding will depend on the law (for example in the UK they would need to be an authorised 'Celebrant' - religious - or an authorised 'Registrar' - civil.) The US will have its own set up for who can perform marriages. One important distinction is that in the UK a marriage must be public meaning that the US mormon practise of temple weddings (only 'worthy' church members can attend) as the sole recognition of marriage is not allowed leading to UK members taking the route of an offical legal marriage (normally in an LDS church and done by the Bishop) and then the same day going to the temple for an evening 'Eternal marriage' performed by a temple official.) Members who don't go straight to the temple ar enormally penalised by not then being allowed to eternally marry till 1 year later as determined by the local church leadership.
In the US the practise of recognising the secret temple ceremony as official has led to lots of angst for 'unworthy' or nevermo family members being excluded from this beautiful family moment. Stupid cult.
In your case it looks like they will be having a public marriage (phew) and in this case the positive aspect of mormonism will be on display. In general the members who attend will be lovely and you'll find that they won't have any great hangs ups. They'll integrate easily, shouldn't be too phased by alcohol, won't get rowdy themselves and will generally be lovely (though they may bunch up but that's normal for weddings anyway.) You may get the odd mormon loudly mentioning something but in general mormons find it rude to intrude their beliefs on someone else's public occasion (surprising but true) and so I wouldn't expect you to get any problems from the mixed nature of the event.
If the wedding is at an LDS meetinghouse then there is stricly no smoking in the building or on the grounds, ditto for drinking alcohol and tea and coffee (so if you are having a meal at the church afterwards don't expect to serve booze or coffee). It may be worth pre-warning nevermos so that the day isn't troubled by awkward moments and if they want to they can arrange a quick trip to a local bar. Also depending on the nature of the invites you may get loads of the local members attend (they have no restrictions with intermingling with worldy people at public events - mormon wards also see themselves as a large family so often feel they have an open invite !) If you ar eeating at the church be aware of moochers. After church events some members will feel entitled to walk off with leftovers. Control this heavily. Don't let people take stuff away unless they donated it in the first place (some people want their dishes back quite understandably). If you have cases of food/drinks police them to make sure they don't get acquired ! This will not likely be a problem if you are eating elsewhere.
Warn the speech givers of the churchy nature of a large part of the crowd. Rude jokes etc. will not go down well and will lead to an awkward atmosphere. Light hearted jokes will be taken well but rude ones will not.
It will be unlikley that there will be any overt proselyting.
Congrats.
 
jam
jam 3 years ago

Thanks Cold steel/ Qcmbr.
That's great no problems with Mormons, but JW's that's
another story, LOL. If they show up for the reception I
will not leave when dinner is served (they ask me to leave at
my JW daughter reception). My son told me if anyone is ask to
leave it will be all JW's. I hope there will be no problems.
Any further questions I will PM you. Thanks a lot.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

Thanks Jefft: yes I’m bracing for the worst...I’m afraid of an embarrassing reception.


One buffet table for JW’s and one for Mormons.
Nonsense. I don’t think you have a thing to worry about. Mormons are well behaved, they don’t steal food nor do they start religious arguments. Qcmbr is a former, and quite bitter, member of the LDS church, and he lost no opportunity in bringing up superfluous points designed to portray Mormons as being socially inept and iconoclastic. Even though there is no temple marriage involved here, he couldn’t refrain from bringing it up so he could refer to the church as a “stupid cult.”
Qcmbr warned, “You may get the odd mormon (sic) loudly mentioning something....” Something?? What we’re not exactly told, just be ready for an odd Mormon kook doing something ridiculous and embarrassing. It reminds me of Dan Peterson’s story about a thread on an ex-Mormon website “discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants.”
Again, you shouldn’t have any problems. But be aware that anyone can be an uncultured boor at a party, and their religion really has nothing to do with it—unless you’re talking snake handlers. The fiancé of my wife’s nephew found a sale on lip balm during the Christmas holidays. She subsequently showed up with him at a party thrown by my wife’s aunt (an atheist), and attempted to sell the lip balm to the party guests at a hefty profit. She wasn’t a Mormon, or a Jehovah's Witness; she was just a kook. She’d never met any of those guests, either. First impressions.

That's great no problems with Mormons, but JW's that's another story, LOL. If they show up for the reception I will not leave when dinner is served (they ask me to leave at my JW daughter reception).
Wow...can you relate that story? Who asked you to leave at your JW daughter’s reception? The KH elders? What did they tell you?
 
jam
jam 3 years ago

cold steel: This took place around 12 years ago. My daughter and
her husband ask me to attend, dad I won't you there but could
you come after dinner. I agreed, no problem. Well when I arrived dinner
had not been served. The problem, my non-JW family members were also
present. So I arrived with my date we took our seat at the table with my non-JW family,
my brother his daughter and her husband, my two sons and their date.
The brother presiding over the reception, we served in the missionary
togather (he was the branch OS). Unaware that dinner had not been
served my daughter came over to the table and told me daddy there's a
problem, you must leave before we can serve dinner. I told my brother I must leave. Why he ask? Try telling a sane person why I
must leave, LOL. Well it ending with my non-JW family leaving with me,
we all stood up and walked out.
The funny thing about the reception entertainment, a slide show with
me in it, missionary work. My daughter told me later that was the
entertainment. My JW family, ex wife and her husband, my other daughter
and her husband and nephews and nieces and freinds over 200 present.
I found out later, my nephew, son-in-law (my other daughter husband)
both served at Bathel and my ex-wife and my other daughter went to
the presiding elder and told him, the program can not continue with me
present.
If that would have happen today, WOW no one would have eaten.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

So there you are at the festivities. Dinner had not been served, so your daughter approaches you and says that dinner cannot be served unless you leave. Your JW buddy is overseeing the reception and your daughter is apparently passing on a message. When you leave, your non-JW family left, too. Why was that? And why would they not serve dinner while you were there?
Was it because of your non-JW family who left with you? Did they understand they weren't welcome? When you guys left the reception, was dinner served to the remaining Jehovah's Witnesses?
What would have happened had you and your family refused to leave? The Branch Overseer was obviously the one who issued the order, but what right did he have to do so? Is it that he didn't want non-JWs at the feast?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is of great interest to me. My JW family members, when they joined the Society (the whole lot of them) just cut off all contact with us after they were baptized. I can only surmise they were ordered to do so.
No wonder the ex-JWs here are so ticked off! It makes me furious even hearing about it.
 

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Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Son dating a Mormon.
by jam 3 years ago 7 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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jam
jam 3 years ago

I,am flabbergasted. He said she was a liberal Mormon.
What the hell is a liberal Mormon.
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 3 years ago

A liberal Mormon woman would believe in an open marraige, sharing her house with many other wives? Your son hit the jackpot!
Skeeter
p.s. I want to move WEst, but I am afraid my kids will marry a Mormon. So, I bad talk all religions on a regular basis adn make sure to point out the nutty ones....including Mormon underwear. You better start learning about how wierd the Mormon's are; and how he will be expected to convert and cool his relationship with non-Mormon. Actually, you better use Steve Hassan methods on her (and him). Anyhow, take him out places where he could meet other eligible ladies too.
 
return of parakeet
return of parakeet 3 years ago

I never heard of a liberal Mormon.
Maybe Qcmbr could shed some light on this.
 
Eustace
Eustace 3 years ago


You better start learning about how wierd the Mormon's are
Weird is a word that's relative to what the average in a society is. My problem with JWs aren't that they're merely weird, like the Mormons, but that they're controlling and soul destroying to a degree unseem in any other religion even nearly the same size.
The dark side of Mormonism just doesn't compare to the dark side of Jehovah's Witnesses.

and how he will be expected to convert and cool his relationship with non-Mormon
Are you sure Mormons aren't allowed to marry non-Mormons?


Intermarriage
More than four out of five Mormons who are married or living with a partner (85%) are married to or partnered with another Mormon; 6% have a spouse or partner who is Protestant, while 3% are in a relationship with a Catholic and 5% have a partner who is religiously unaffiliated. By comparison, the Pew Forum’s 2007 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey found that 81% of Protestants are married to another Protestant and 78% of married Catholics are married to another Catholic.
http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Mormon/mormons-in-america-family-life.aspx#intermarriage
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 3 years ago

Mormons shun, and shun severely. Look at the ex-Mormon community. Alot like us here. Broken families.
Mormons are under alot of control. Alot like JWs.
Exiting Mormons & exiting JWs make up a very large group of people needing help from the International Cultic Studies.
Bite Model as applied to Mormons:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/cult.htm
 
jam
jam 3 years ago

Sheeter: "Sharing her house with many other wives". Do
Mormon celebrate Xmas? It will cost me a fortune in gifts.LOL
Eustace: He told me she believe in Evolution, born and rasied
a Mormon.
 
fakesmile
fakesmile 3 years ago

the good news is that she is a repressed freak. the bad news is that it is all for procreation. so, you're son will have some great daddy issue sex but the sheilds are down.hello grandpa x-6.
 
jam
jam 3 years ago

Fakesmile: Thanks a lot, "hello grandpa x-6". He and I
will definitely have a talk. How do you change magical
underwear on your grand child.
 

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Mormon, LDS, church
by free2beme 3 years ago 1 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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free2beme
free2beme 3 years ago

I have to go in to a Mormon church for my son to practice his basketball games (He has a mormon coach and he is good). As I walk in though, I tell you that it reminds me so much of a Kingdom Hall. Smells like one, has the same boring themes, etc. Only big difference, Mormons are wealthy and do things larger and with more money invested. But seriously, other then all the paintings of Joseph Smith and Moroni. It is Kingdom Hall country. Ever been in one?
 
insearchoftruth4
insearchoftruth4 3 years ago

Oh heck yeah, I got no problem playing basketball indoors in their Steak Houses, same as a big Church. But the boring church thing....no..no. Did enough of that as JW way to long.
 

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FEBRUARY 1ST 2013 WT TRACTAZINE!!! LIGHT GETTING BRIGHTER!!!!
by DATA-DOG 3 years ago 42 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

At my last meeting I picked up the new Feb 1, 2013 WT. My first reaction was " Is this a joke?" I said so out loud to the literature servant.
So while checking it out and weighing it's pathetic mass in my hand, I noticed something. You may have already seen this, but it was new to me. On page 8 in the article " They wanted me to prove the truth to myself ". It is the story of a young man who became a Mormon. Why? His parents were impressed by the clean- cut, well mannered ministers of the cult religion. As this young man grew up, he enjoyed the social activities and respected the moral values of the Mormons.
This young man had family in the " truth ". He was impressed by the JW's use of the Bible at a convention. His Aunt and Uncle said that he should prove the truth to himself. So his search begins. He was suprised at how little he really knew about Mormon teachings. So he went to the official Mormon web-site. He was disturbed by doctrinal discrepencies.
Here is the quote that jumped out at me. While searching for answers, this young man decides to speak with responsible Church leaders about his questions and doubts. What was he told?
 " I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries that one day would be solved as the light became brighter "
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 3 years ago

Yes, I saw that one too.
 
Zagor Almanah
Zagor Almanah 3 years ago

Yup, it sure is, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT....
 
pixel
pixel 3 years ago

O Gosh. Thanks for the find.
 
Gayle
Gayle 3 years ago

It's like they look at a mirror and they don't see themselves.
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 3 years ago

LOL, mormons have nu lite too....
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

I just feel so alone at the meetings. I can't understand why no one can see this?? I feel like I am on crazy pills!! I am a fish who has realized that he is in a fish bowl!
Here is what the man in the article did.


Organized Religion should be taxed out of existence..
 
maisha
maisha 3 years ago

Cracked up with that one DD.. lolololol
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 3 years ago

Hahahahahahaha. This really is the pot calling the kettle!
Was his name Andre by any chance?
 
TJ Curioso
TJ Curioso 3 years ago

The edition in portuguese only says:
"I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries not yet solved"
 
00DAD
00DAD 3 years ago

Great find Data-dog. I liked the image of the goldfish jumping from one bowl to the other as well.
It's really a telling comment about human psychology how a cult can publish things like this and not see how it exposes their own cultishness!?!
If you're interested in understanding this phenomenon better you might want to take a look at these links:
◦Confirmation Bias
◦Cognitive Dissonance
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

Wonder if there's any in the writing department that are 'stuck in' and unable to get out but decide to slip in little things like this? Otherwise it's laughable!
 
00DAD
00DAD 3 years ago

Tornapart, I've wondered the same thing.
On the other hand, there's the distinct possiblity that they are simply being ruthlessly pragmatic in their approach to membership, effectively adopting a policy of:

"Look, if you're too smart, independent minded, or emotionally strong to be part of our little codependent club, we don't really want you here. You're just trouble. So we'll continue to drop little tidbits like this in our literature from time-to-time to remind such individuals that, 'Yes, we know we run a cultish little enterprise and we intend to keep it that way, thank you very much.' If you have a problem with any of this, the door is over there!"
No other explanation makes sense, otherwise how does this kind of stuff get by the editors and proofreaders. Allegedly the GB reviews all of this stuff. Can it really be possible that they do NOT see how things like this apply to themselves just as much as others, in this case Mormons?
Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance theories only provide a partial and incomplete explanation.
00DAD
 
Emery
Emery 3 years ago

a face palm from hell.
 
shamus100
shamus100 3 years ago

Tractazine...
 
Satanus
Satanus 3 years ago

It's interesting that they use the mormons in this little exercise. Mormons are fairly similar to jws in wierdness, evangelism and control levels, except that they are a little bit looser.
S
 
Emery
Emery 3 years ago

at least mormons have universities, sports teams, and multiple wives
 
shamus100
shamus100 3 years ago

Word around the street is that mormons are more accepting of homosexuals these days... I'm feeling tempted. SOMEONE HOLD ME!!! I WANNA PLAY SPORTS!!!
 
pixel
pixel 3 years ago

They love to bash the Mormons...
 
thecrushed
thecrushed 3 years ago

OMG! Facepalm seriously how can they be so blatent and not wake people up with hypocritical articles such as these? Oh wait they are brainwashed I forgot.
 

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FEBRUARY 1ST 2013 WT TRACTAZINE!!! LIGHT GETTING BRIGHTER!!!!
by DATA-DOG 3 years ago 42 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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moshe
moshe 3 years ago

" Is this a joke?"
yes, you hit the nail on the head-
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

00DAD.. I just read those articles you posted the link to and I noticed in there it said ' The researchers concluded that music may inhibit cognitions that result in dissonance reduction.' That gave me a OMG moment.. they've recently started playing Kingdom melodies before and after the meetings now!!
Is this to help rid everyone of their cognitive dissonance?
 
shamus100
shamus100 3 years ago

** monkey hops on the organ and starts playing phantom of the opera very badly **
Oh, Torn Apart, don't listen to the haters... go back kitten... go back... you can pet lions and live like a farmer forever and ever!!!! :grinning:
 
bats in the belfry
bats in the belfry 3 years ago

Cross-referencing: I dug deeper into the teachings of my Mormon faith . . and became JW
 
00DAD
00DAD 3 years ago

tornapart, I remember that Steven Hassan talks about the importance of music in cult rituals, which is not to say that all music equates to or creates a cult, but that it is an important part of getting the mind ready for indoctrination.
Sorry I don't have the exact quote.
00DAD
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

I wondered if there was an insider too! Then again maybe 00Dad is right, if you won't submit then they don't want you anyway?! It is just so bizarre, talk about having your mind blinded... Some days my mind and heart cry out " Why?! How much longer?!! "
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

ROFL Shamus!! You are seriously funny Monkey Boy... hahah
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

DD... just try and chill bro... you can do this... I can do it .. you can do it... we're together on this yes? We'll get our loved ones out if it kills us... well lets hope it doesn't.. but you know what I mean!
 
Christ Alone
Christ Alone 3 years ago

I'm curious as to what these new tractazines look like. I hope someone posts a pic soon. I'm definitely not going to a Kingdom Hall to get my copy.
 
problemaddict
problemaddict 3 years ago

Wow. I had to go read it for myself. Hard to believe it is so cleanly laid out like that?
I can imagine my conversation with an elder. "So brother inmybiz, would you say my doubts would maybe one day be solved as the light gets brighter? Yes? Well I like this young brother am disappointed by that explanation."

I dug deeper into the teachings of my faith and also consulted with responsible Mormon Church leaders. I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries that one day would be solved as the light became brighter.
Disappointed by their explanation, I looked more closely at myself and my reason for wanting to become a Mormon missionary. I realized that I was attracted to the idea of becoming a missionary just as I would be to any other humanitarian cause.
 
tornapart
tornapart 3 years ago

CA.. it's not so much what they look like... it's what they feel like... flimsy
 
Crisis of Conscience
Crisis of Conscience 3 years ago

Bookmarked
 
tiki
tiki 3 years ago

bizarre
 
2+2=5
2+2=5 3 years ago

What the!? I might bash my head against some concrete so I can better understand.
The further away from the religon you are the more puzzling this all becomes. How does anyone not see it.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 years ago

" I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries that one day would be solved as the light became brighter "
Unfortunately the New Light the WTS. gives people is maligned misinformation and lies, with no biblical support,
but if you don't accept their NL they will deal with you by putting a muzzle on your mouth.
If and when they finally realize that 1914 isn't valid anymore to keep, that too will become New Light.
Welcome to organized religion made for and by men.
 
InterestedOne
InterestedOne 3 years ago

2+2=5 wrote:
How does anyone not see it.
By shifting one's attention, changing context, and minimizing (or exaggerating depending on what serves to make one appear to be right) the issue being considered.
If one is a JW criticizing Mormons, a doctrinal problem met with a Mormon "light gets brighter" response shows that Mormonism is an inadequate religion.
If one is a JW receiving criticism, a doctrinal problem met with a JW "light gets brighter" response shows that the critic is nit-picking and impatient.
The JW is always right, and that's that.
 
SAHS
SAHS 3 years ago

tornapart:" Wonder if there's any in the writing department that are 'stuck in' and unable to get out but decide to slip in little things like this? "
That is actually what I'm endeavoring to do now - "slip in little things" into my comments at the meetings, especially the WT study. I was never an elder, ministerial servant, or regular pioneer, but my dad is a well-known elder where I live, and I've been focusing on very subtle little points in my comments to make people think, but very subtle/careful indeed. I'm a born-in, 46 years old now, and the more subtle little things I can mention the better (especially providing some historical insight into some previous "understandings" in JW teachings/dogma, and emphasizing the role of Jesus over any man-made organizational doctrines and rules).
Actually, during one comment I was actually looking at my iPhone 5 on which I had looked up some specific historical teaching of Charles Russell (I forget what it was) which was from this very discussion board! . . . . Well, we're supposed to use such electronic aids now at the kingdom hall, aren't we? I plan to put mine to good use.
 
dreamgolfer
dreamgolfer 3 years ago

Mormons have Mitt, JW's are:
J E A L O U S
 
Ding
Ding 3 years ago

I think Gayle nailed it:
It's like they look at a mirror and they don't see themselves.


 
Rabbit
Rabbit 3 years ago

Blood-sucking Vampires have that same problem...just sayin'.
 

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Topic Summary
at my last meeting i picked up the new feb 1, 2013 wt.
my first reaction was " is this a joke?
" i said so out loud to the literature servant.



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by ReligionOfHatred 6 months ago
Pattytheperfect1
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Really beautiful Watchtower article about truth
by Anders Andersen 2 months ago



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FEBRUARY 1ST 2013 WT TRACTAZINE!!! LIGHT GETTING BRIGHTER!!!!
by DATA-DOG 3 years ago 42 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

I have googled up confirmation bias and this is what I come up with,
Confirmation bias
In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.

See also: Mind & Brain ◦Behavior
◦Psychology
Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study.
Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconfirm their hypothesis.
As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in collecting evidence.
 
Mary
Mary 3 years ago

" I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries that one day would be solved as the light became brighter "
Wow! Good thing the Witlesses don't teach that.......


 
Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

LOL, Mary has not become 'She Outlaw' Unsure if both two are married now or not.

Scott77
 

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Topic Summary
at my last meeting i picked up the new feb 1, 2013 wt.
my first reaction was " is this a joke?
" i said so out loud to the literature servant.



Related Topics
ReligionOfHatred
JW Elder Lawsuit Update: AAWA Fliers are Illegal and Uncle claims he is "Going to Kill us in Court"!
by ReligionOfHatred 6 months ago
ReligionOfHatred
Why is my Uncle (JW PO-COBE) and Aunt Cruella suing my parents and grandparents?
by ReligionOfHatred 6 months ago
Pattytheperfect1
First post after a year or two of lurking on this site-Sorry for the length!
by Pattytheperfect1 2 years ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
Anders Andersen
Really beautiful Watchtower article about truth
by Anders Andersen 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


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my life is a mess need some advice
by deservingone26 2 years ago 29 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw experiences
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deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

so if you read thru my previous posts from years ago u can see a little background of my life. To do a quick summary i was df'd at 19, Got into the party lifestyle which included party drugs and lots of alcohol. At 24 i decided to step bacdk and really try to get my life in order. I found the mormon church. I soon found out that my mom was dying about 3 months in and her request was for me to return to the kingdom hall. I started goingback but it was just not in my heart and about 7 months after she was diagnosed she passed away. I never got reinstated.
I went back to the mormon church and became and on and off member for about a year and a half. I can say im proud that i quit doing drugs (2+ years clean! I soon started to become bored. I think i just like drama and change because im constantly moving and trying to do new things. In september i fell back into an old habit. The reason i was disfellowshiped. I hooked up with another guy. I freaked out because at the time i was really active in the mormon church. I did the only thing im always good at and i ran!I bought a one way ticket to san diego! I partied hard for 3 days straight spending about 700. i was broke and fortunately moved in with my dad. My dad let me move in with him but he still had a full fledged jehovah witness mindset. and he was remarried. i
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

im doing this from cell phone so its not letting me continue on with post for some reason at certain point the story is almost done...
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

my dad got remarried to another jw but for some reason they were both df'd he is saying because she was not elgible to be remarried but not sure of the actual story... ithey are both working on getting reinstated. my step mom is crazy so after 3 weeks i moved out. I moved into housing program (homeless shelter) been living here for a month. my life is a mess because i dont knowwhat im doing anymore. i dont know where my lifeis going it just seems to be geting worse and worse. i dont know if i want to be religious i just cant seem to vonnect anymore if you know what i mean and i dont know if i want to be gay because everytime i hook up i just feel really guilty. i just dont feel good and im just seem to be constantly searching for something to make me feel good. but nothing seems to work...im back to work but getting minimum wage. its the only job i could get. i just dont know anymore any suggestions would be great...
 
Comatose
Comatose 2 years ago

You need to try to see a counselor or therapist. You need help getting over the guilt with who you are. It's just who you are. And it's okay. You can be gay and normal and happy. First things first. Join a local group that supports gay people coming out and struggling. You will meet new friends there. Stay clean.
I would see if there is a narcotics anonymous for gays in your area. I bet there is. I'll google search it and post it back. I know alc and narc anon are almost like a religion. The structure would probably help you.
 
Comatose
Comatose 2 years ago

https://www.facebook.com/pages/San-Diego-North-County-Alano-Club/185578497675
This one may be best - http://www.feelinggood.org/
reach out to them. From their website:

Local Recovery
San Diego's recovering community is very active, and includes many wonderful recovery organizations. On any given day we are lucky to have a number of meetings and events to attend. Presented here is a listing of some of these organizations and their contact information.
Live and Let Live Alano Club
1730 Monroe Avenue
San Diego, CA 92116
ph#: 619-298-8008
Hours 10:30 am - 10 pm daily
Stepping Stone San Diego
3767 Central Ave
San Diego, CA 92105
ph#: 619-278-0777
AA Central Office, San Diego
7075 Mission Gorge Road, Suite B
San Diego, CA 92120
ph#: 619-265-8762 (24 hours a day)
Office Hours : Mo-Sat 9am-5pm
Al-Anon Family Groups, San Diego
ph#: 619-296-2666
Office Hours : Mo-Fri 10am - 4pm
Gay Men's Spiritual Retreat
Annual Spiritual Retreat for Men.
Lambda Recovery Weekend
Annual recovery weekend for men and women in our community.

Live & Let Live Lesbian Roundup
Annual retreat for ALL women in All 12-Step programs.

Return to top
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 2 years ago

Please be super careful. Mixing drugs and sex (any kind) is risky legally and medically. That is just not a road you want to go down. I have lost three gay friends one at 22(suicide after arrests on prostitution charges/drug problems) one at 25(AIDS) and one at 47 (liver failure). I also know people (gay/straight)who have rich and productive lives-but drugs are not a part of their lives. Take care of the substance abuse and learn to deal with your sexuality in a way that you can live with yourself. Keep working hard to improve your situation. It can get better-it can be GOOD, even GREAT. Make great your goal. No matter what. The JW thing is a no go. The LDS thing-not working. If you need spirituality, find it in a place that you can work with who you are, where you are.
Good luck, best wishes.
 
Hortensia
Hortensia 2 years ago

Are you still in San Diego? There's a large and active LGBT group there. You do need to find some sort of counseling to help you -- being gay isn't anything to feel guilty about. And, you need help putting a better life together, getting away from drugs. Stay in the homeless shelter, go to work, get all the counseling and support you can. Try to eat some healthy stuff every day, and try to exercise outside in the sun every day.
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

thank you i will look into these. I need to find a councelor or therapist but is that a lot of money?
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

im drug free and have been for over 2 years no weed or anything. ive been offered drugs but i always turn them down but still drinking tho...
 
Hortensia
Hortensia 2 years ago

You should be able to find some free counseling somewhere in your community, although you may have to hunt for it. When I lived in San Diego and was getting out of the org., I went to County Mental Health and found a very good counselor, and I didn't have to pay for the counseling.
 
Poindexter Lionel Humperdique
Poindexter Lionel Humperdique 2 years ago

Keep your head up. Back in the day, a good friend of mine had no where to live since his parents kicked him out, so he moved into a shelter. He found a minimum wage job. showed up to work on time and worked hard. He saved his money and took care of his health. After about 6 months, he was promoted at his minimum wage job, and was able to rent a studio for himself. You can do it. Think positive and work hard. The therapy will be very helpful too. Take care.
 
dm6
dm6 2 years ago

Deserving one, chin up mate i know exactly how you feel, i have just come out of a similar situation, i was also too living in a homeless shelter so i totally know and understand your situation right now. Although it may not seem like it at the time, the only way is up!!
Once you have saved up enough money from your job, you will be out of the homeless shelter your living in and be free in your own place once again! :grinning:
let it be a lesson to you that partying hard just for a few days can easily totally destroy your life, anyone can easily do that at anytime! Remember its always easier to get into things than out of!!!
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

Tough love here, you are gay, so you need to accept it, and stop punishing yourself. A religion will never keep you from being gay, no matter which one it is. You need therapy to help you to stop hating yourself for being gay, then you will not need to punish yourself by taking drugs.
I am sorry your mom died and your dad is a JW, that is rough. But know that you are a worthwhile human being, you just got dealt a bad hand. You need help getting out of this hole, so believe you deserve that help and don't give up until you get it. Most places you can get therapy on a sliding scale, depending on your income. Even if it is expensive, it's worth it, you are worth it. Work hard at therapy and make it count. You are young and have your whole life ahead of you, so get on with it, you could have a great one.
Lisa
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

thanks you guys! Thanks for sharing your experiences and encouraging advice. I know counseling will be the best thing for me i dont know if i could ever accept being gay tho i just feel like there should be some way i can get over those feelings and live a "normal" life. one with a wife and kids or at least my own kids. no adopted. In an ideal world i would be attracted to women and be able to have a normal relationship but atthe same time maybe i could be happy with a guy but all it ever seems to be is hooking up which after its all done i just feel empty. i just want more with my life. i want happinsss. i guess this is just how life is...maybe everyone has these same feelings but im not sure because this is all ive known always just searching...
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

i will work hard at my job tho and save to move into my own place. I do love it here in San Diego!
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 2 years ago

If my math is correct, you're about 26. If you're interested in "higher education" you're old enough to qualify for Pell grants and loans without considering your parents finances. Such was the case with me (being much older than 20s). And at the university I received free counselling.
Regardless of whether you're interested in more education, you need to look inside and learn about YOU. Forget the mind-control of the JWs and Mormons, what do you want out of life? What do you want your life to be like in 20 years? You don't really need to have it all figured out, just have some idea of the path and see what develops along the way... at least that's the way I've been doing it.
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

Thanks! and yes i am 26! I really want to go back to school. I know its not gonna be all figured out in one night but thank you all for your posts. They have eased ny mind and i feel much better.
 
Jewel
Jewel 2 years ago

I think you're confusing uncommitted sex with gay sex. Maybe the "hookups" leave you feeling guilty and empty because they aren't the result of a loving relationship. Sex without emotion can make people feel empty or guilty whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. Focus on stabilizing your life. Make sure you are reliable at work. Find the closest community college and make an appointment with the Financial Aid office. If you're in a shelter, someone there can help you find resources (also, the links others have given you).
Avoid hookups if they make you feel bad, but be open to caring relationships. There are many, many gay people who have wonderful, happy families. The problem isn't your sexual orientation, but the way you've been taught to feel about your sexual orientation.
 
gorgia2
gorgia2 2 years ago

deservingone26,
It's all in the name: deservingone. Yes, you are, but not for feelings of guilt. You deserve a happy life. All the advice so far has been heart-felt. Please consider what the other posters have written and know we all care for you. Being brought up as a JW confuses and disjoints. Being yourself is impossible until you leave, and then you have to work out who that hidden self is!
gorgia
 
Fernando
Fernando 2 years ago

Since quitting religion in favour of faith and spirituality based on the "unabridged gospel" I no longer feel compelled to judge or change gays, but rather to love them just like Jesus does - as they are.
Moralism is apostasy - just like legalism.
You need to get free of moralism and the guilt it induces.
A good counsellor or Psychologist, possibly who is gay, and maybe also a non-religious believer, could be a great help.
Once you are in a better place you may want to read an alternate scriptural perspective on fulfilling same sex relationships:
http://biblehouseofgrace.com/same%20sex%20relationships.html
In the meantime please forget religion - go find yourself, go find happiness, go find love, go find commitment, go find healing, go find friends, go find a great supportive partner...
 

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my life is a mess need some advice
by deservingone26 2 years ago 29 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw experiences
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jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

It might help to imagine a new future for yourself. Imagine being in a committed relationship with a man you love and who loves you back. I think you have to find a way to love who you are and find new ways to express this. School is a great idea.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 2 years ago

I think you're confusing uncommitted sex with gay sex. Maybe the "hookups" leave you feeling guilty and empty because they aren't the result of a loving relationship. Sex without emotion can make people feel empty or guilty whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. Focus on stabilizing your life.
First, assuming you are gay based on the fact that you have had a couple same-sex experiences is jumping the gun (IMO). Maybe. Maybe not. Many young people experiment more than was done by past generations. It's typically much easier to find a quick hookup with another guy than developing a relationship with a nice gal. One-night-stands, regardless of the orientation, are not going to give you much emotional fulfillment. If you're looking for that same "feel good gratification" from a quick sexual hookup (vs alcohol or drugs), you might be dealing with another type of addiction that you haven't considered. Multiple addictions are common.
To turn your life around long term, focus on (1) education, so that you eventually qualify for more than a min wage job; (2) building a dependable reputation where you are working so you can advance there or elsewhere; (3) spend less than you earn; (4) counseling; (5) making friends.
You are young. You have much more of your life yet ahead of you. This kind of set back at this time in your life does not have to damage the rest of your life that is ahead of you. The choices you make, and what you do from here is what will determine that.
Good luck.
Doc
 
ABibleStudent
ABibleStudent 2 years ago

Hi deservingone26, Write down your plan then execute your plan. You can change your plan as your life and feelings change, but having it written down helps you decide what is really important for you.
For now make a simple plan, like workout instead of drinking, attend free recovery groups to work on your issues, and work hard to save up for a place of your own or to share an apartment with someone who is responsible. As you feel more emotionally, financially, spiritually, physically balanced, then start adding more details to your plan.
Have you read Steve Hassan's books ("Combatting Cult Mind Control", "Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves", and (his latest book) "Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults and Beliefs"), visited his website www.freedomofmind.com, and/or watched his videos on his website? Your life will get better the more that you critically think for yourself by doing your own independent research. Emotions can be very intoxicating, but you may become very depressed if your emotional decisions are not consistant with what you want out of life. Also, the mormons are a dangerous cult just like the WTBTS.
Best of wishes figuring out how you want to live your life.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

I hesitate to type advice here, because I feel so strongly on my point of view. It is the religious back history that is making you "feel guilty." It is the feeling guilty that makes you so sure you have failed or are worthless. It is the feeling of failure and/or worthlessness that makes you do drugs.
You definitely need a professional counselor to help you get over that first problem- the religious back history.
As far as anyone helping you decide whether you are gay or not, that's up to you. A therapist/counselor can help. But Gay or Straight, either one is okay, and no reason to feel guilty about it. If you feel guilty about "hooking up," that feeling occurs for straight people too. But you need professional help sorting that from whether you should feel guilty or not. Personally, coming out of the JW religious mindset, I don't see anything wrong with casual sex.
People with unstable environments often have to work their way out of a bad situation. Minimum wage, but steady work, is a wonderful start toward improving your situation. Even setbacks like losing a job can hold you back for awhile. Don't be so down on yourself when your hurdles are so high that you can't overcome them right away.
 
clarity
clarity 2 years ago

((Deserving)) ... those are lovely words of help for you.
Your friends here, have given them to you freely with
concern & acceptance.
UNCONDITIONAL LOVE .... the real thing...you are not
under pressure to accept it or pay a price for it.

Religion usually wants its pound of flesh!
Throw that crutch away & stand up strong,
move forward into a real life.
Wishing you the very best!

clarity

 
Hortensia
Hortensia 2 years ago

If you're not sure about being gay, marriage to a woman is not a good idea. Imagine her distress if you are gay and eventually leave the marriage. Take your time to figure out who you really are. Get an education, if at all possible.
I don't know, maybe none of my business to have said that, but I know of a couple of unhappy marriages because the husband or wife eventually admitted being gay and the marriages broke up.
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

Me too, Hortensia. I met an elegant woman, Catholic, whose 25 year marriage ended when her husband finally admitted he was gay. With tears in her eyes, she wondered aloud why he didn't tell her years ago, and save them both a lot pain? She of course lived with the pain all those years thinking she was unappealing to her husband. And yet they are still the best of friends.
 
deservingone26
deservingone26 2 years ago

Thank you guys for your posts.This is the only counseling that i have received on my issues and whenever I get to the point of where I really need some advice i can always count on you guys to put in your thoughts and encouragement. I really think its time for me to really sit down and write out clear goals for myself as mentioned earlier. I dont want to focus on being gay or straight right now. I really do think its just part of my addiction problems of wanting that "quick fix" I've never persued a relationship with a guy and honestly dont think i would want one. It just seems boring. After i hook up i want nothing to do with the other person usually. I feel like i have two personalities or somethink like dr jekyl and mr hyde or something lol because i say that now but in a week its like i have these urges to go out and hook up and sometimes i act on them and sometimes i dont. Right now im thinking i dont want it all and is that me just not accepting it or what? im not sure. In an ideal world like i said i would be straight and have a relationship with a women who was comfortable with my past because I am not going to try to hide that fact that I do have same sex attractions from her either. I dont know if it will ever happen but that is what I want. But I dont think im in a position to be looking for a relationship i really need to figure out me. I do want to go back to school. I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do and I do have dreams. Which my first dream was to move to San Diego its something Ive wanted since I was 18. I love it here. I should have came out here with more money but I am in a place where I can get some help.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

I read your thoughts here and read between the lines that you are very much hung up on "hooking up" and not wanting to be gay.
That may be fine in the end. You can be straight in a committed relationship if that's what you decide to do. But please consider that it's all part of your religiously implanted guilt over such things. I imagine that hooking up with a woman would, to a lesser degree, give you the same kind of guilt and excuse to do drugs because you let others down. You are certainly probably very right not to pursue a relationship right now while you sort this out. The Doctor Jekyl/Mister Hyde thing kind of confirms that you have inner conflicts.
Regardless, good luck.
 
problemaddict
problemaddict 2 years ago

Hey bud. While not gay myself, I do live in San Diego. Comatose do you as well?
Perhaps we can grab a cup of coffee sometime. Not a gay cup of coffee, just a regular chai frapachino with 4 extra pumps and cinnamon sprinkles or something like that.
 

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Topic Summary
so if you read thru my previous posts from years ago u can see a little background of my life.
to do a quick summary i was df'd at 19, got into the party lifestyle which included party drugs and lots of alcohol.
at 24 i decided to step bacdk and really try to get my life in order.



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Can you invision WTS easing anti-gay position?
by irondork 4 years ago 19 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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irondork
irondork 4 years ago

I was reading the article posted in slimboyfat's thread: Mormons decline because of internet, ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131 )

Former Mormon church reseacher, Ray Briscoe was quoted: "I have never been associated with an organization that changes as fast as the Mormon church. I don't think God was ever against blacks in the priesthood. We just had to grow up enough to accept it." As for gays -- "it will get there, in my judgment."

The thrust of the "gay" part of that article had to do with the church's stance on political issues. Politics is not something the WTS is likely to get involved with. I also doubt we'll ever see a gay marraige at the local kingdom hall.

The thing that got me to finally leave the JW's was not necessarily their stated position of "hate the sin/love the sinner". I made it clear to the JC that I believed they got the gay thing wrong, was waiting for the ban to be lifted, and was willing to remain celebate in the meantime just so I could be in Jehovah's organization. The thing that put me out the front door of the JW camp were the unwritten rules that absolutely apply against gays; the reality that exists on the ground, not the feel-good side notes in Watchtower articles that ocassionally remind the brothers to play nice even with people who disgust us.

Being an openly gay JW will keep you near the center of the gossip machine, marked, shunned (while still active), joked about, "don't touch my kids", insulted with limp-wristed gestures toward you in the field service car group... oh how the list could go on. The hierarchy paints this horrible picture about all the despicable things gay people ARE, that their "play nice with others" message falls flat.

The Mormon church seems to be learning a lesson here. Do you think the WTS has the wherewithal to do the same?
 
paulnotsaul
paulnotsaul 4 years ago

I don't ever see this happening. JW's are fundemental fundementalist! You really went the extra mile to acomodate them. In the end you knew what had to happen. You had to move on to avoid thier judgemental gossipy conditional love. Irondork, you seem to be a good man. peacetoyou paulnotsaul
 
rebel8
rebel8 4 years ago

Here they are pretty much hardcore jw fundies. Yet I think there is an acceptance that it's not a choice and they are ok with it.
This is surprising since they are extreme about everything else. The only theory I have is they are soooo pro-male here that they are willing to accept anything males do much more than anything non-male-related.
I made it clear to the JC that I believed they got the gay thing wrong, was waiting for the ban to be lifted, and was willing to remain celebate in the meantime just so I could be in Jehovah's organization.
Looking back, how do you feel about your offer to remain celibate?
But on the positive side, the person said, "having a Mormon president could raise the church's profile and legitimize it in other countries."
ITA with this point from the article. Prominent people's lifestyles are legitimized in the public view, to a certain point. I think the election of a Mormon president would set society so far back in its awareness of the dangers of cults.
 
mP
mP 4 years ago

its funny they are anti gay but the big hero king david was bisexual, with his boy toy jonathan. abraham was another who had men fondle his balls.
 
rebel8
rebel8 4 years ago

^ I just tried to look that up but only found references stating platonic relationships. ???
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

its funny they are anti gay but the big hero king david was bisexual, with his boy toy jonathan
You know, this is the kind of shit that pisses me off. People coming out criticizing the bible, and they don't even have their facts straight! Considering their ages, it is much more logical that david was jonathan's boy toy---not the other way around. Sheesh!
NC
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 4 years ago

Never gonna happen.
 
irondork
irondork 4 years ago

rebel8: Looking back, how do you feel about your offer to remain celibate?

Of course, looking back now I realize my offer to remain celebate was driven by as much ignorance and naivete as my willingness to marry my female roommate just so others wouldn't gossip about our living arrangement. I got sucked in to both - I live with the consequences of both.

We all have our baggage.
 
irondork
irondork 4 years ago

To clarify, I love my roommate dearly. Our living arrangement is what it is by choice. I couldn't imagine life without her. But due to circumstances, neither of us is free to take a real mate now.
 
jws
jws 4 years ago

Can't see it happening. The JWs are under a lot more pressure to relax things like blood transfusions, shunning, and probably bans on birthdays than their stance on homosexuality. That's something most other religions also shun and most religious people also shun. As long as there is support for their position among even other religions, they'll feel smug. And even if other religions relax and change their view, has that ever made a difference to JWs - what other religions do?
Do you think they'll ever ease up on sex outside of marriage or adultery? Don't see that happening either. Some things are just too fundamental in Christianity.
Hopefully mankind will outgrow religion with it's ancient rules and prejudices. That seems to be happening and could resolve the conflict before JWs change their position.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

The WT is now careful not to publish stuff which is openly anti-gay, but with their literalist way of reading, and thus totally misunderstanding, Scripture, thair actual stance will not change much.
The R&F JW moves with the times but slowly, so a softening of their homophobic attitudes is happening, but they still have a deep-rooted prejudice against gays, and what they term the "gay life-style" meaning being sexually active as a gay.
I hope they get called on this as much as anything else, it will expose them for the mind-controlled bigots they are.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 4 years ago

I never understood why these religions make such a stink about sexual issues. Even as far back as the Jews who took sexual enjoyment away from people (to enslave them), the LIE-ble has been homophobic. The LIE-ble makes sex a guilty pleasure, and prescribes stoning to death people for such infringements as adultery, fornication, homosexuality, and bestiality. It's right in Leviticus. And Paul, a Jew assigned to translate Jesus' message into a form where it could be used to enslave the Gentiles, reiterated homophobia.
Yet, the LIE-ble doesn't utter a peep against such "non-offenses" as torturing people and enslaving them. Religions like Judaism and Christi-SCAM-ity go around torturing people for practicing witchcraft, not believing everything the LIE-ble says, and going against the religion in any way. The whole hell threat is intended to make people too frightened to check whether their religion is even valid in the first place (sorry, Catholic church, but you didn't get me firmly pro-Catholic by the time I was 7, so you let me slip right through your slimy fingers). Where is the LIE-ble's harsh stand against these practices? If they were half as harsh against scaring people to keep them in lies, enslaving people, and torturing people as they are against sex "infringements", we might not have nearly as much racism, enslavement, and culture destruction as we see today.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

The Leaders tell married couples how to do it what makes you think they would become liberal about gays and lesbians.
 
baltar447
baltar447 4 years ago

I'm kind of impressed and surprised that this person spoke so openly about these issues. Can you imagine J.R. Brown or Sammy Herd giving this kind of interview? LOL would NEVER happen.
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 4 years ago

nope. never.
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 4 years ago

nope, never , never , never. They are paranoid about heterosexual couples "simulating" homosexual acts.
 
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb 4 years ago

I think they'd give up 1914 and eat blood before they'd accept a homosexual.
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 4 years ago

NO, for the simple reason the WTS leaders will stand and back up what the bible says about homosexuality .
Realizing that homosexuality is a result of genetic biological imbalance, will never reach into the thin intellectual mind set of the GB
leaders of the WTS/JWS.
 
irondork
irondork 4 years ago

thetrueone: NO, for the simple reason the WTS leaders will stand and back up what the bible says about homosexuality .

What the bible says about homosexuality, or what the WTS says the bible says about homosexuality? There is an enormous black line running through the center of those two concepts. So enormous, in fact, there are websites and furoms dedicated to helping people learn the difference and free themselves from enslavement to the manmade organizations who peddle them.

You should check out those wbsites; jehovahs-witness.net, jwfacts.com, freeminds.org, gaychristian.net
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

I think the bible pretty clearly makes many statements against homosexuality. That's fine with me, because it holds no authority for me. But I didn't think that anything in this bronze-aged book was ambiguous when it came to homosexuality.
NC
 

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'But i hear all sorts of different views in the ministry'
by bohm 6 years ago 9 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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bohm
bohm 6 years ago

I have heard this a couple of times:
evil apostate: If, for example, a friend of you who wanted to be a mormon said: 'I have studied mormon throughoutly: its history, what it says, what the critics say, and i am sure mr. Smith was under divine influence and this is the truth', but what if he had only studied mr. Smith from mormon litterature - ie. what mr. Smith himself said about himself, his opposers, etc.. Would you really think he had done a throughout examination?
JW: Well, look: I go door to door every week. I hear all sorts of arguments from all kind of religion. If any of them could show something jw believed in was not in the bible, I think i would have heard it by now.

What is a good counter-argument to keep the conversation on the counter-mind-control track?
 
Chalam
Chalam 6 years ago

I hear all sorts of arguments from all kind of religion. If any of them could show something jw believed in was not in the bible, I think i would have heard it by now.
They are told not to read or listen to "apostate" material. That said, they must have heard the gospel as they present their "other gospel" at the doorsteps of believers.

1 Peter 2:8 (New International Version)
8 and,
 "A stone that causes men to stumble
 and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

JWs stumble over Jesus, the Rock and they disobey the simple message in the bible. Here's a classic example.

John 3:3-8 (New International Version)

3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Or this
Romans 10:9 (New International Version)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
All the best, Stephen






 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 6 years ago

Don't argue. Don't tell them stuff. Just ask questions that they don't like to answer or can't answer.
If a JW made a statement like that to me I would have asked them to prove from the Bible that the FDS was selected by Jesus in 1919
Forget the trinity/soul/whatever. Learn how to hack at their primary doctrine using questions.
 
designs
designs 6 years ago

The most obvious issue about the 1919 teaching- Those were Bible Students NOT JWs. Two completely different religions.
 
jabberwock
jabberwock 6 years ago

JW: Well, look: I go door to door every week. I hear all sorts of arguments from all kind of religion. If any of them could show something jw believed in was not in the bible, I think i would have heard it by now.
The Witness here is not saying that it is wrong to consider what critics and apostates have to say, but unnecessary since any legitimate criticisms would turn up in conversation while out in field service.
Ask this person outright whether or not they personally would read material (apostate or otherwise) that was critical of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I suspect that they would not. In that case ask them if this is how they make other decisions.

If they went to the local Ford dealership would they trust a salesman that told them, "The new Mustang is great. Don't read the review in Consumer Reports though. It's all lies and half-truths. Just take my word for it and buy it now."?
Or what would they think if they had a rare illness and their doctor said, "I have a new experimental procedure that can cure you. Other doctors think it's dangerous, but they're all quacks and liars. The entire medical establishment is corrupt. Whatever you do don't get a second opinion."

I think in both of these situations and many others Witnesses would tend to think more critically and view claims of exclusivity with suspicion. They need to apply this same type of thinking to their religious beliefs as well.
 
bohm
bohm 6 years ago

JABBERWOCK: As you can properly tell, i drill him on this question pretty much every time we meet. I actually asked him exactly what you wrote. The response? "Well, if someone want to do that, that is their descision. But personally, I dont feel i have a need to do that" (arms crossed, defensive body posture).
BLACK SHEEP: Oh yes oh yes. My current position, that i also tell him pretty much every time we meet, is that i am very impressed by jehovahs witnesses and how they base what they teach on the bible. However, even for wrong doctrines (such as the trinity), it is possible to select quotes that make it look like the bible has support of it, so in order to really know something is bible based you got to go in depth. One of those doctrines that i think every christian MUST go in depth which, and which is paramount for my own faith, is that of the FDS.
I personally think an argument about their teachings in 1919 is the STRONGEST against jw, but i doubt its the most effective. I have asked him a couple of times about what would falsify his belief in jehovahs witnesses, and he keep returning to 'well, that we teach something which is not in the bible'. For that reason, and because it smell the least 'apostate', i have chosen to focus on the 70 years and 607. More specifically, reading a couple of chapters of jeremiah and then look at questions like 'which countries did the prophecy apply to?' etc. I will only bring in history if/when he does.
But for now, we have both age regressed to puplic school where we read out loud to each other from the yellow book. last time i learned that spirits are superstitious nonsence ignorant, delusional people believe in. Unless they are deamons, BECAUSE THEN THEY ARE REALLY DANGEROUS!!!!!!111111111
 
Amber Rose
Amber Rose 6 years ago

Probably not the best approach, but I would be tempted to say - Really, people TALK to you in the ministry? You have actual conversations about religion with people in your door-to-door work? How often does this sort of thing happen to you? After 6 years of pioneering, I can probably count on one hand the number of people with whom I have gotten past "Hi".
 
Satanus
Satanus 6 years ago

We used that line, too.
Ask, 'well then, you wouldn't mind if we go over what the apostates say?' Wouldn't work, of course.
S
 
Georgiegirl
Georgiegirl 6 years ago

(laughing) - EXACTLY what Amber Rose said. Really? Exactly HOW many in-depth conversations have you had in the ministry where you actually listened without an agenda and had a real conversation where you heard other views? Um? Helloooo??? (sound of crickets chirping)
 
Georgiegirl
Georgiegirl 6 years ago

But seriously...there is so much they teach that is not "in" the Bible. Let's see, if you take a few words from this verse, a few words from another verse in another book, extrapolate them together, click your heels twice, turn around counterclockwise, and divide by the square root of pi - well see, there you have it! It's IN THE BIBLE!
 

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Phone Call to my Mormon Aunt- she used to be a JW-It was wonderful.
by QuestioningEverything 8 years ago 8 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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QuestioningEverything
QuestioningEverything 8 years ago

I have an aunt who is one year younger than me, she's my mom's youngest sister.. We have always been very close and were more like sisters. We were both baptised as a JW and were always together. Around 2002, she became inactive Then she got baptised as a Mormon in 2004! Me being the good little witness I was told her that I couldn't associate with her any more because of that. It was such a difficult and hard thing to do but I thought I was doing the right thing.
Fastforward to 2008- I now see that my belief system is not as I was taught. I decided to call her this weekend and make amends. It was wonderful- we both cried, laughed and are going to meet up with our families. I missed her so much. The thing is though, my mother is completely involved in the KH. She would be devastated to know I am in touch with her again just because of the Mormon thing. My mom has a big family and I'm not quite sure how to handle this. Any thoughts?
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 8 years ago

The thing is though, my mother is completely involved in the KH. She would be devastated to know I am in touch with her again just because of the Mormon thing. My mom has a big family and I'm not quite sure how to handle this. Any thoughts?
It depends on whether your aunt was df'd. If she was, you could be df'd as well for "bad association". If that happens, will your mom shun you? If not, she could also be df'd. It's just another way to control the sheep and keep them from learning the truth about te "truth".
 
burningbridges
burningbridges 8 years ago

wow is your aunt either desperate for controlled religion or following men to these compounds? I cant believe someone would go from JW to mormon!!!! crazy!! I say go for it though, so what what your mom says, this is about you and your aunt, not your mom....
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

you are 39 and still worried what your mom will say? and you wrote you are no longer a member of the JW's so I think your mom will just have to deal with it, I mean it's not like she can send you to your room for talking to family. Family is Family dispite what the org teaches.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

Going from JW to Mormon is like going from the frying pan into the wok. She can get "disfellowshipped" in the mormon faith as well and it's the exact same thing she experienced as a JW.
 
justhuman
justhuman 8 years ago

I just can't understand how many ex-jw's are going from one mind controled cult to another.....doesn't make sense to me. Some they have addiction to the "hypnosis"that cults are doing on them. They are like drug addicts or alchool addicted persons. They just can't brake free from the bonds
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

At least if she can evolve to being a male morman, she can get her own planet and be god there.
 
Gayle
Gayle 8 years ago

Wonderful to be able to meet up with your aunt again. Best wishes! Will your mom have to know? But be cautious as Mormons are just as much out to convert you as JWs are out to do. So, maybe it's time to start checking out an ex-Mormon Discussion Forum also. Take care.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

At some stage you need to move on from living for others and live for yourself. This may including things that upset others, including family. I think it is wonderful you are in touch with your Aunt and would continue to speak to her. Don't go out of your way to let your mother know, but if she finds out, so be it. You don't even need to say how you feel about the WTS, you could simply say you feel it is unchristian to shun family; certainly Jesus would not have behaved in such a way.
 

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feel like I've walked into a tar pit
by lancelink 8 years ago 24 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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lancelink
lancelink 8 years ago

Around three years ago my wife started to invite the Mormon missionaries in, and have discussions with them.
This went on for several months, then the get together s started to be 2-3 times a week. I would work late because i wanted
no part of it. (you see I was seriously starting my fade, and i didn't want to get involved with anything else.
Well she really was starting to progress with their studies, and since she seemed to be a true JW, I told her that she was sailing in uncharted waters, and she might want to watch herself.
For the next 2 years they came on a regular schedule, and surprisingly I found myself defending the witnesses, trying to remember points and topics that would prove that the mormon beliefs were false.
( talk about walking a thin tightrope here.)
So I literally told her that she had better speak to the elders in her hall, and that i would agree
to go along with whatever suggestions that the elders gave her. I figured that they would come down pretty hard on her.
She spent over three hours speaking to them, and they decided that she was doing nothing wrong !
They said that it must be an encouragement for her to study with the young people, but that she should watch herself closely so that she did not become an apostate/!.
Now she is seriously tossing the idea around of actually becoming a Mormon!She would just DA herself.
Personally, I have learned during this time how religions like the Mormons and JW's operate, and it is not all sunshine and roses.
I really am tired, and fed up speaking EVERY night for over two years about religion and beliefs,
just worn out regarding this subject :frowning:
Does anyone have a personal experience, or some nugget of research that might help me out here ?
I would really appreciate it.
Sorry if this is somewhat choppy, she is sitting right across the room from me right now.
 
treadnh2o
treadnh2o 8 years ago

Holy crap!!!
That sucks!!!
 
Eliveleth
Eliveleth 8 years ago

Lance,
Here is a website that you may find answers at. http://www.4witness.org/
Hope it helps. It is not pleasant when your spouse finds yet another cult and you
are ready to throw in the towel.
I will be praying for you and your wife.
Love and hugs,
Velta
 
nameless_one
nameless_one 8 years ago

Wow, that is crazy! Talk about a double whammy. The reaction of the elders seems really bizarre, do they understand that she is the study here who is learning Mormonism, or do they mistakenly think the Mormons are the studies and that your JW wife is teaching them JWism? Either way, what a bizarre and terrible situation.
I don't have any advice, just wanted to say that I really feel for you. One cult is bad enough, but to have to deal with two, yikes :frowning:
 
Quandry
Quandry 8 years ago

Where is formermorman? I'll bet he could help. Maybe you could pm him.
 
amama2six
amama2six 8 years ago

I was thinking the same thing, nameless, it sounds to me the Elders think she's taking opportunity to teach the Mormons about Jehovah versus them teaching HER. I can't see why the Elders would EVER give her the go-ahead to study with Mormons with the possibility of her converting.
 
sweetstuff
sweetstuff 8 years ago

Hmm, ok you are in a tough, tough spot. She's obviously interested in religion and on some kind of a search. Perhaps you could place a few books around the house on cult mentality, buddism, hinduism, what I'm saying is give her some other options to delve into versus jumping from the frying pan into the fire. It's not much in the way of advice but at this point, what could it hurt? It could be simply that she is losing faith in being a JW and is seeking something to hold on to and the nice young morons mormons seem a compelling alternative at the moment to her.
If focusing on their beliefs and dissproving them isn't working, maybe giving her a wider sample of "truth" to choose from could buy some time to figure out what's behind her sudden "conversion".
 
Tired of the Hypocrisy
Tired of the Hypocrisy 8 years ago

Sounds like she is jumping from the fire back into a hot frying pan. Neither of these groups are any good. I wish I had something worthwhile or meaningful that could help you.
I got nothin'.....
 
DJK
DJK 8 years ago

Utah hasn't come up in your discussions has it?

Polygamy, Polyandry, Polygyny: What's the difference?

Polygyny is one man married to several women.
Polyandry is one woman married to several men.
Polygamy refers to either arrangement. The Utah Mormon church practiced polygyny. Several of today's Mormon faiths practice both polygyny and polyandry, which is consistent with the practices of Joseph Smith the faith's founder.
Plural marriage is a a synonym for any of the above and is often used as a euphanism in place of polygamy.
How much of Utah is Mormon?

About 70% of Utah is Mormon.
How many Polygamists are there in Utah?

About 60,000
(5% of Utah Mormons)
 
Greensleeves
Greensleeves 8 years ago

The Mormons believe that Native Americans are decendents of a tribe of Israel. That is absurd.
John Smith wrote the Book of Mormon in the 1800's as a new Bible. He didn't write it, as much as he "dictated" it while looking into a hat, in a dark room, while his assistant wrote it down. No one else could read the tablets but him. The people that swore they saw the tablets don't have any credibility. Where are they?
The whole story in the book of Mormon is ridiculous. John Smith was killed early on and became a Martyr for this new "religion". They were ran out of every town because of their ridiculous beliefs, and settled in the Northwest Territory now known as Utah. They are guilty of slaughtering a group of people that were passing through in a wagon train. There was a movie made about it last year. I think it was called "September Dawn".
The movie could be wrong about the massacre being Mormon lead. I doubt it. But their crazy beliefs should be easily proven false. The massacre being only added proof that they are a cult.
 
moshe
moshe 8 years ago

2 JW's met 2 Mormon missionaries on a sidewalk. The JW elder said, "we don't move for false prophests, the Mormon elder said, " but, we do", and they proceeded to go around the JW's.
 
Satanus
Satanus 8 years ago

Is she trying to convert you? I mean, does she bring it up, or do you? What do you think being married to a mormon will be like? My impression is that they are more family oriented and more caring than jws. I could be wrong..
S
 
lancelink
lancelink 8 years ago

thank you for all the support and suggestions.
I'll post later when things change/hit the fan/stop, or whatever.
 
New light for you
New light for you 8 years ago

The only thing i could say is in that famous book "Combatting cult mind control" it ALWAYS uses the idea of meeting with "EX" whatever group members to get people to think again about joining.. i really do think this would be THE TIME to do that with the wife...

Wow. good luck.
 
lancelink
lancelink 8 years ago

kind of a weird evening.
I work at a local school, and am getting prepared for the new semester.
This means that there has been much working late, so this evening I get home around 7:30pm and there
is a Mormon elder, along with his wife sitting in my living room when I get home talking to my wife !
Suddenly they 'have to get going" (yea, right) and take off.
This is starting to get a somewhat JW "creepy feeling" to me.
I mean they come over and talk when I'm not around.
Basically I'm totally exhausted dealing with this situation, the JW elders seem to have just added
fuel to the fire with their unspecific support.
 Oh I did not mention that my wife met with several elders once, spoke for two hours and nothing was done.
later, (about 1 year later) I told her to speak to her PO about what has been going on. Three hours discussion with him in a local park, and nothing wrong with her attitude,?!
 After reading all the suggestions given me here, I believe that a "hard nose" attitude is what I'm going to follow. After being a JW for years, and going along with their version of getting disciples I can really see what is going on here, kind of like looking from the inside-out.
 We knew a really neat couple in a neighboring congregation what were divorced about three years ago,problems between them just increased so he left and they agreed to a divorce. My wife could not understand how this lady would sacrifice her marriage in order to remain completely faithful to a "man made" organization(JW) with the support of her large family who are ALL hard line witnesses.
Yet now my wife is putting most of her free time, energy, and support to the Mormons,an extraordinarily man made religion
if there ever was one !
 So, I'm going to draw the similarity between her actions, and the sister who she routinely criticized,
religion #1, marriage#2 and if she becomes a Mormon, I'm leaving. I'm not going thru that religious crap all over again.
And another point that I'm going to ask the mormons the next time they invite me to sit and talk with them,
in Genesis, the devil told Eve that if she ate the fruit, she would become like god, yet the mormons believe that they will BECOME a god
after they die. So if they believe and follow the Bible, how can this be explained in a positive, spiritual way.
 
mustang
mustang 8 years ago

Keep it simple: plead "burnout". Use that to buy time. Good luck.

Mustang
 
mustang
mustang 8 years ago

How is your financial situation? (That's rhetorical; don't answer.)
A few years back I was talking with a friend at work about my JW father hounding me. He indicated that he was a Mormon, but not a "good Mormon".
I asked why that was.
His response was that the Mormons expected THE TITHE. Not only did they expect it, but they would estimate and bill you for it!!!
Better get this one sorted out, way in front of the other stuff!!!

Mustang
 
lancelink
lancelink 8 years ago

wonderful, they are probably talking about this when I'm not around.
 
mustang
mustang 8 years ago

An ENFORCED TITHE is hardly a selling point: you'll probably havve to pry it out of them. (It's the same as JW's doing DF'ing:it's an unadvertised feature.)

Mustang
 
Thechickennest
Thechickennest 8 years ago

Yeah, its a tar pit for sure. I would be real uneasy if mormons were meeting privately with a family member and espessially the spouse. No advice. I am just going to pray for you and your wife. Goodnight.
 

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feel like I've walked into a tar pit
by lancelink 8 years ago 24 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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yknot
yknot 8 years ago

Remember how until 1953 the JWs had Pleiades....
Well the LDS still have Kolob (which means "first creation")
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob
Get them talking about the celestial stuff.........
Better yet join a Exmormon forum.....just like us they are happy to dish on the oddities of their former religion.
 
Hope4Others
Hope4Others 8 years ago

My dad became a Mormon I was dumb founded, especially from a guy that said he'd never become a jw....
You mean she actually buys the bit about Joesph Smith coming over to America in a barrel?
I actually had a bible study with a teacher that was a Mormon some years ago, quite interesting to use a bible verses the
book of Mormons. Which over takes anything the bible says as the final word.

hope4others
 
yknot
yknot 8 years ago

If she is trading one non-trinity view for another ......I would suggest the Bible students....
But as far a trinitarians go......the Methodist and Lutherans ain't that dogmatic.. (or at least in my area).
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

Sorry to hear about your situation. How would your wife look in this?

You can get it here => http://www.templedress.com/whiteelegance_lds_temple_cloth.html for only $68.90. Sorry, Bloomers and Shawl not included.
While you're there, you can pick up some other Mormon supplies:

Yummy-yummy-yummy !!! Nothing like a big bucket of "Mormon Chow" to feed all those sister-wives when the feds come knocking on your FLDS compound walls !
B the X
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

lancelink,
Um, I think I just killed your thread. Shall I come by and talk to the Mormons and see if they would perish at the thought of my mindnumbing wit?
Anyway, like yknot says, check out the ex-Mormon sites.
B the X
 

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Topic Summary
around three years ago my wife started to invite the mormon missionaries in, and have discussions with them.
this went on for several months, then the get together s started to be 2-3 times a week.
i would work late because i wanted .



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JW's and Mormon's argue who has the true religion
by moshe 9 years ago 10 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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moshe
moshe 9 years ago

And, If this ever happened it could go like this:
A JW debates a Mormon about who is the one true religion on earth and a stalemate ensues so they go to an impartial Beit Din- a Jewish religious court of law- The Rabbis listens to each sides arguemenst and then rule " We have three choices here,
#1- The JW is right , #2- the Mormon is right or #3, they are both wrong , it's a black and white open and shut case".
The JW protests -""But ,We are God's chosen organization on earth, The Governing Body told me so!"
The Rabbi says : "We have three choices here"
Jehovah has seen 100 years worth WT doctrinal flip flops, false prophecies, innocent deaths from WT medical rules, KH protected pedophiles, etc and:
A: He saw it and doesn't care
B: He saw it and does care, but can't do anything about it
C: God didn't see anything, doesn't care and can't do anything.
----------------------------------
Which answer do you think is right?
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

A: He saw it and doesn't care
With a caveat - He will hold an accounting, just not yet.
Liars, and false prophets will be consigned to Gehenna I was told. Maybe so.
Jeff
 
XJW4EVR
XJW4EVR 9 years ago

I believe that He sees it, and will do something about it at a future date.
 
reneeisorym
reneeisorym 9 years ago

D
 
moshe
moshe 9 years ago

Jews who survived the Holocaust had a similar personal wrestling about God and his involvement with mankind. Most Jews could not accept A as to why God didn't intervene to stop the Holocaust early on. B -is the answer many could accept and C is the answer that many Jews used who became non-religious. I don't expect to see any supernatural intervention by God concerning Jehovah's Witnesses. Anything that happens to change them into a more humane religion with personal freedoms will be a result of human desires for change, both from within and without. I am leaning to answer B for Jehovah's Witnesses.
 
2050
2050 9 years ago

D: God didn't see anything. He doesn't exist. All religion is created by man, all Gods are created by man.
 
moshe
moshe 9 years ago

Yes, a valid answer, 2050. Most humans have a problem with that one, witness all the religions and Churches. People pray to an unknown God even when they don't belong to a religion. I wonder, if in a future more evolved, mature time that humans won't finally be able to answer the question on the existance of God. I sure don't expect God to intervene in the affairs of men or stop the sun from burning up our world in one billion more years.
peace,
Moshe
 
2050
2050 9 years ago

Yes, it seems that the majority of mankind believes in some kind of God. I consider myself to be a humanist. Religion is very old, science is still young. I can understand why so many people turn to God for answers. Man doesn't seem to be doing a very good job. But we must remember that the human species is still very young. There is a lot to learn. Here is a funny thought. The witnesses will continue to wait for Jehovah to create a paradise for them. If they are still waiting in 2500 maybe they will get tired of waiting and create it themselves.
 
lfcviking
lfcviking 9 years ago

Maybe there isn't a true religion at all, maybe there is no God. No one can PROVE that he actually exists all we have is reasoning of his existence.
 
2050
2050 9 years ago

Religion is not based on logic, it was here before science. It does serve a purpose though. People need something to turn to in times of need. Many people don't want to die, (that's understandable, most life has an inbuilt sense of self preservation). Since humans understand that they are going to die, they invent things like heaven, or paradise. It is a reflection of the instinct of self preservation. Instinct is molded by natural selection. If birds flew into the mouths of cats their genes would not be passed on. Fear is bred into animals. If you go to the Galapagos islands you will find that you can walk right up to the animals and they wont think anything of it. There seems to be an interesting trend. In the more educated countries there are usually less people who believe in God. Just some of my thoughts. I don't want to offend anyone, I respect all beliefs as long as they aren't harmful.
 
purplesofa
purplesofa 9 years ago

The witnesses will continue to wait for Jehovah to create a paradise for them. If they are still waiting in 2500 maybe they will get tired of waiting and create it themselves.
just wanted to put in an I agree here!
purps
 

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How do JW know they have the Truth?
by Noggin 10 years ago 40 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Breif background: I am an ex mormon. That church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the Book of Mormon. Highly reliable, right? Anyway. Cult mindsets fascinate me now. I have studied twice with a JW bible study group and have attended one KH meeting. I seek to understand what the binding agent is in the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I am in an online discussion currently at a Mormon forum discussing the unreliability of using feelings to prove Truth. I entered my experience with the JW's where I was told that god would reveal the truth in JW to me. I was told that no JW would ever tell me that.
My question: How do Jehovah's Witnesses know that they have the Truth? If they do not use feelings for ratification, what do they use? The infallible word of god? Isn't that completely teleological?
"Our bible is the Truth because we say it is"
???
Noggin
 
Rooster
Rooster 10 years ago

She answered that the Witnesses obey God. So I asked @ what point did Jesus tell us to identify ourselves by anything other then simply a Christian? She answered "we must be identified separate from all other religions.
I asked, "why, does Jesus not have the ability to know who we are or read our hearts?" If by divine inspiration the first century people who believed in and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ but who had not witnessed first hand the Christ or his works, they would be identified as Christians. Nothing more. To resort back to the Old Testament and take the name Jehovah’s Witnesses is working in direct opposition to what God has put into place through His son.
So the answer is obvious..
 
Rooster
Rooster 10 years ago

It's the old "if I say it enough times it must be true" mentality. We have the "truth" so shouted my aunt into a conversation that did not pertain to her. I later asked her this simple question. If Jesus Christ was sent here by God and is our King in the heavens why would anyone disobey what He has put into place through His son?
She answered that the Witnesses obey God. So I asked @ what point did Jesus tell us to identify ourselves by anything other then simply a Christian? She answered "we must be identified separate from all other religions.
I asked, "why, does Jesus not have the ability to know who we are or read our hearts?" If by divine inspiration the first century people who believed in and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ but who had not witnessed first hand the Christ or his works, they would be identified as Christians. Nothing more. To resort back to the Old Testament and take the name Jehovah’s Witnesses is working in direct opposition to what God has put into place through His son.
So the answer is obvious..
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Clarifying:
I have gathered a few quotes from the Watchtower which indicate that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Only true church on earth or that one must be JW to inherit heaven. Here is one of them: *** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 *** "Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization — God’s visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life…" 1. By what means does a Jehovah's Witness trust this is as life guiding empirical truth?  2. I was told that the truthfulness of the Watchtower just "hits you" during a bible study or at a KH meeting isn't that the spirit of god working in men? 3. How do JW's know everyone else outside of the Watchtower is in error? Noggin
 
AuldSoul
AuldSoul 10 years ago

The binding agent, although most JWs are unaware they are bound by it, is the concept of divinely appointed authority supposed to have been conferred in the year 1918. It is through this God given authority that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses dictate all beliefs and practices, any of which can change at any time, and it is a rejection of God's authority to reject any of the changes or beliefs, or to fail to adopt the practices.
The basis for authority is provably false, but JWs are conditioned to ignore any contrary data that would lead to a conclusion which could cause them to reject "God's" authority. If that isn't circular cognitive dissonance, I don't know what is.
"If I intellectually challenge the basis for authority I might find that the Governing Body has no authority from God, which would mean I should reject them as liars in God's name, which would be a rejection of God's authority, so I can't intellectually challenge the basis for authority."
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

AuldSoul:
Thanks for your response. When I studied with the JW's, they knew I was a former Mormon. I was used to the concept that a man could ask god if Mormonism was true and then God was supposed to answer through the Holy Ghost. So I asked the JW's I studied with how I could know that they were really the true church above all others. I was told that the truth would just hit me. I was encouraged to pray for god's will to show up in my life. I was encouraged to ask for divine guidance. I assumed that meant god would speak to my heart in similar fashion as done in the Mormon church.
I hear what you are saying about the divine appointment of the 1918 JW founding authority.
I am befuddled that 6 million JW's take that this appointment happened on blind faith.
1. There is no ratification to the individual member? No spiritual manifestation that the appointment happened?
2. If not, what is the spiritual component of the JW faith?
3. Perhaps I was told that I would be able to distinguish that the Watchtower was true above all other religions via feelings during bible study or a KH meeting because they already knew I was conditioned to think this way from my Mormon roots?
Anyone with helpful insights are welcome to comment
Noggin
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 10 years ago

When Rutherford decided to call the movement Jehovah’s Witnesses with the “idea” that it would somehow remain separate from all religions or somehow prevent it from being included as a religion proves he wasn’t thinking too clearly. Even the WTS gave up on that one.
 
AuldSoul
AuldSoul 10 years ago

No spiritual manifestation that the appointment happened?
Not really. Not in any sense that you or I would recognize a spiritual manifestation. In their perception within the doctrinal dynamic, however, the following factors are their proof of appointment:
(1) Organizational growth.
(2) Unified message proclaimed identically throughout the world. (a subtle misrepresentation of reality, but believed true)
(3) The love evident among the brotherhood. (a gross misrepresentation, but believed true)
(4) Doctrine that is founded solely on God's Word the Bible. (a gross misrepresentation, but believed true)
(5) An organizational structure that could only continue to exist by holy spirit. (false, but believed true)
(6) Miracles and angelic protection. (urban legends that confirm belief, believed true)
(7) Perceived persecution, every adversity is perceived as an attack of Satan. (false, believed true)
That is just about the whole list. Each item can be deconstructed and proven baseless in minutes, but each serves to bolster confidence that they are in "the truth". They never give a thought to how many of these same factors are touted as proof by other religious organizations.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
 
FreeFromWTBS
FreeFromWTBS 10 years ago

I asked this of my husband and he returned it with the question well i guess it is if you believe they have the holy spirit. I can say I do not believe as a group they have the holy spirit.
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 10 years ago

I think this is what psychologically goes on in the minds of some. First, the neophyte is persuaded that several "core doctrines" are biblically sound and true (e.g. no Trinity, no hell, no immortal soul, Jehovah as God's name which should be widely used, a future paradise earth, etc.), the particular combination of which is held to be unique to JWs. These beliefs are used to define JWs as having the "true religion" (since they contrast as a group with the beliefs of other religions), and the arguments used to support them seem quite convincing to a learner. This is the "hook" because once the learner has accepted these teachings as true, he/she is easily guided to the conclusion that only the JWs have the truth and thus JWs are the "true religion". This makes some of the harder doctrines (such as "1914") easier to accept; the reasoning is that these teachings must be true since I already know they are right about other things and they are the only ones who teach these truths. Thus, the "core doctrines" help reinforce the veracity of other teachings that on themselves seem a little questionable.
The "sinker" comes when the idea is introduced that God has always had an organization and is himself organized. If JWs teach the truth and are the only true religion, then it is relatively easy to accept that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is "God's earthly organization". And once that idea is accepted, then any teaching stemming from the organization can be accepted as true, even if it has no biblical basis, such as the teachings about "1918" and "1935", or that the Society is to be identified as "faithful and discreet slave" in Matthew. And if the person has doubts about the validity of any teaching (e.g. that sure sounds like a stretch), the idea that the WT&BS is God's organization can resolve those doubts because one can reason that some day the Society will get it right with "new light" and it is up to Jehovah to update his flock with spiritual "food" at the proper time. Thus the very idea of "truth" itself becomes relative; what is "true" today may be false tomorrow, but until we have "new light" it is to be accepted as "truth". And the way the JW accepts Watchtower authority continues in a circular fashion around the same assumptions instilled early on, that only JWs teach certain true doctrines, that there has to be one religion on the earth that is "true" while all others are false, and since only JWs teach certain truths, they must be the true religion despite whatever "inaccuracies" or "mistakes" (which are not viewed as "untruths") they may make as imperfect men.
For instance, the idea that the "end is so close", reinforced by one's own perception of the current state of the world reported in the news, and the idea that there will be a worldwide preaching about the New System right before the "end" comes (based on a scripture), can combine to convince a JW that the Society is teaching the truth, for who else is preaching about Armageddon and giving a warning than the JWs right now? Similarly, the Society uses analogies from the OT to reinforce the idea that its organization is the only organization. One familiar trope is associating Armageddon with Noah's Flood (this is done through citing Jesus who compared Judgment Day with "the days of Noah"), and by likening the organization to the ark that saved Noah and his family. And this hits on the biggest factor for maintaning belief....fear. Fear of Armageddon helps keep doubts at bay because what if the Society is right? Even if one is no longer sure it is the truth, he/she may think that it's best to stay "in the ark" just in case. Also, the committed believe that eternal life at stake, for most JWs this means a most appealing future in a paradise Earth, without experiencing sickness and death. Many JWs desire this greatly, and thus emotion also plays an important factor...the belief or conviction that one will never die. One thus can have much at stake personally in this, and will want it all to be true, even if there are some doubts in the back of one's mind.
 
garybuss
garybuss 10 years ago

#1, The Governing Body is the spirit channeler and they alone are the source of "truth".
#2, Only the Governing Body can explain what the Bible "means".
#3, The Watchtower magazine and other literature produced by the Governing Body is primary support.
#4, The Bible is secondary support . . . The Bible actually supports the literature that explains what the Bible "means".
#5, The Governing Body alone speaks for God and they alone are the source of "truth".


 
Narkissos
Narkissos 10 years ago

In addition to the objectivist indoctrination method which has been very well described in the former posts ("objectivist" in that it refers to the so-called "accurate knowledge"[TM] an "objective truth," "based on" Bible proof-texts etc., and ultimately addresses the reason of the prospective convert -- one could speak of "gullible rationalism" here), I would submit that subjectivity is also implied, although in a much less systematic way than the Mormon appeal to "inner testimony". The JW "student" is encouraged to pray, ask for Jehovah's spirit and guidance, and any religious feeling s/he can get in this context will be welcomed as a confirmation of the "truth". (Of course, any religious experience pointing to a different direction will be explained away as a deception from the devil.)
Basically I think this is not qualitatively different from the way any religious organisation treats religious subjectivity -- welcoming it as long as it confirms objective "orthodox" doctrine, dismissing it when it gets different. The difference is quantitative. There is little room for mystical experience and expression among JWs, but I wouldn't say it is totally absent. I remember that when my stepmother told her "JW testimony" she always said she "immediately felt it was the truth", and nobody ever objected to that...
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

So back to my original post:
My question: How do Jehovah's Witnesses know that they have the Truth?
The response is varied.
If they do not use feelings for ratification, what do they use?
So JW's declare to the world that they are the truth on nothing more than:
The WTS is true (i.e. God's only earthly organization) because we say it is true ???
Isn't that completely teleological?

"Our bible is the Truth (truer than those other Christian sect bibles) because we say it is"
I know that those I studied with told me that God (Jehovah) would lead me to the Truth. I guess I inserted my Mormon background into that assertion in thinking that I would be able to tell the WTS was true through a spiritual witness.
Incidentally, how do they employ verses such as James 1:5?
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of god...
Galations 5:22 fruits of the spirit?
If there is no spiritual feeling portion to the WTS, it appears like a defunct, spiritually dead religion that, amazingly, thrives for some reason (people fear leaving?).
Noggin
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

Thank you Leolaia!!
That was a complete and very understandable explanation as to why JWs believe they have the "truth".
Juni
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

Noggin, hi and welcome.
Probably you are referring to the statement, "The truth has a certain ring about it." Has someone said those words to you?
Reread Leolaia's explanation. Very understandable and right on the target.

Juni
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Narkissos wrote:

I would submit that subjectivity is also implied, although in a much less systematic way than the Mormon appeal to "inner testimony". The JW "student" is encouraged to pray, ask for Jehovah's spirit and guidance, and any religious feeling s/he can get in this context will be welcomed as a confirmation of the "truth". (Of course, any religious experience pointing to a different direction will be explained away as a deception from the devil.)
Yes, that was my experience. I was told to study the WTS literature, compare it to the bible, and then pray about it for guidance from Jehovah. I was told to seek for a confirmation.
THANKYOU! I knew I wasn't crazy.
Narkissos continues:
Basically I think this is not qualitatively different from the way any religious organisation treats religious subjectivity -- welcoming it as long as it confirms objective "orthodox" doctrine, dismissing it when it gets different. The difference is quantitative. There is little room for mystical experience and expression among JWs, but I wouldn't say it is totally absent. I remember that when my stepmother told her "JW testimony" she always said she "immediately felt it was the truth", and nobody ever objected to that...
Your stepmother felt immediately that it was true. That is exactly what I am talking about. That is the divine providential guidance I am referring to. There is an inner compass reading that investigators are supposed to tune into in order to find out that the WTS is the Truest religion on earth. And Jehovah is supposedly the entity behind that compass.
Incidentally, I suppose after the conversion experience, that is when the mystical experiences drop off? I can see that. Once you have the conversion experience, are baptised, then it is all faith in what the WTS says and produces. That makes sense.
If anyone else reading this post has viable information that refutes this, I am extremely interested in knowing it. I really am only interested in what is real.
Noggin
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Thanks so much Leolaia for your comments. They make a lot of sense.
Leolaia writes:
The "sinker" comes when the idea is introduced that God has always had an organization and is himself organized. If JWs teach the truth and are the only true religion, then it is relatively easy to accept that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is "God's earthly organization". And once that idea is accepted, then any teaching stemming from the organization can be accepted as true, even if it has no biblical basis, such as the teachings about "1918" and "1935", or that the Society is to be identified as "faithful and discreet slave" in Matthew.
The mechanics of "Once that is accepted" is what I am after. I am after how that gets to be accepted in one's mind. Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them. This type of revelatory process is the basic premise of all of the One and Only True Religions be it pentecostals, SDA, Catholics... and definately Mormons. I had some aquaintences on another forum board tell me that there is no personalized confirmation feeling from a supposed JW god entity leading investigators into the WTS.
Noggin
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Noggin, hi and welcome.
Probably you are referring to the statement, "The truth has a certain ring about it." Has someone said those words to you?
Reread Leolaia's explanation. Very understandable and right on the target. Juni
Hi Juni No one told me that couplet. Is it an article published by the WTS? I would be most interested in reading it. Do you have a link? I'd even go buy it. Noggin
 
zen nudist
zen nudist 10 years ago

JWs work with IF THEN set up questions base in pure binary logic.... there are only two possibilities for all of their questions...and since they are the ones which fit the RIGHT possibility in all cases they present, naturally they MUST be the right religion...there is no other option!
and it is easy to fall into this binary thinking of theirs because many have been trained by prior religions to think in black and white terms and JWs get most of their converts from already believing people, they dont do well in new territories that no one else, christian has made inroads.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 10 years ago

Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them.
Actually I meant that this can happen and is welcomed if it does, but it is not expected, and is not felt as something missing if it does not.
I have found a similar pattern among Evangelicals: the "catch" message is, "accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and you will be saved / born again"; but if someone says "I accepted Jesus but I felt nothing particular," the prepared answer is: "trust the Scriptures: you are saved / born again because they say so, even though you may have felt nothing particular."
Other churches, though, will require an expression of personal experience -- such as Pentecostals with "speaking in tongues".
 

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How do JW know they have the Truth?
by Noggin 10 years ago 40 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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juni
juni 10 years ago

"The truth has a certain ring about it."
Hi again Noggin.
It was a verbally expressed mantra. I don't know where it started. I'm happy that Narkissos is helping you out here. He's a very smart guy and does live in France. You can always private e mail him too.
Juni
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them.

Narkissos responds:
Actually I meant that this can happen and is welcomed if it does, but it is not expected, and is not felt as something missing if it does not.
Noggin responds:
Okay. So that still fits with my experience. Those in the WTS knew I was Mormon. I told them that any Mormon converting from Mormonism to JW would likely need a spiritual manifestation to do so. I think that is why they answered the way that they did.
The bottom line that I am getting is that I am finding out that JW do not believe that the body of members need personal revelation to direct the affairs of their lives. That just seems so odd to me with my old Mormon background.
In Mormonism, one seeks personal revelation as to which job they should take, whom they should marry, what school/university they should attend. They are extended "callings" or jobs in the church and are encouraged to pray about the job and receive a "Yes" answer from God that he really does want you to serve the Mormon church in that capacity. They are encouraged to seek God's approval in every significant event. The "answers" from god are extremely feelings based.
The Jehovah's Witness does not pray to God over important items like this? I think that they do. In fact, I just searched the JW official web site and found this:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2003/5/1/article_02.htm
"What would you like to ask God? How God answers prayers" which posits that the members ask, and the JW god responds.
In WTS, good feelings just ebb and flow and they aren't trumped up as the end all be all? It is almost, from what I gather, expected... "Of course we feel good here at church, this is God's true church". The truth, once one is emerged/enmeshed into the cult, is carte blanche accepted.
What about if one has serious doubts as a member? What if their doubts are so significant that they are considering leaving? What are they encouraged to do? Are they not encouraged to pray and seek another confirmation?
Noggin
 
barry
barry 10 years ago

The mormons do make a big thing about feelings. Unless you study with them you may not know whereas with the JWs its more about how doctrine is incorrect in the churches and we are right .
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 10 years ago

For JWs it is very much mind driven, they are constantly told that the heart is treacherous and not to be listened to.
It is common to hear that 4 things are necessary to keep faith, the PASS
Prayer
Association (attending meetings)
Service
Study
All four reinforce what the WTS says. You pray about being a better JW, listen to the theology at meeting, study it and go preaching about it.
A mentioned earlier, to get to the stage of indoctrination is just like any other cult. The initial contact or bible study is about the JW Kingdom. People want to believe that there is more to life. A JW tells the new recruit that they can live forever on paradise earth, with all current problems gone. The recruit is normally the type of person that wants to believe that. After a series of studies that show the JW seems to know their bible and can offer a nice loving way of life that offers solutions to the worlds problems some people get hooked. Once hooked they believe that the Governing Body is directed by God and not to be questioned, even as problems and inconsistencies arise.
Most people see the inconsistencies prior to joining and so never join. That is why the Internet is killing the WTS. A new recruit that gets on the Net to research the legitimacy of it all prior to being hooked and blindly accepting everything the GB says does not get sufficiently indoctrinated to give over their mental powers to the group.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 10 years ago

Noggin,
I had a number of conversations with Mormon missionaries and have noticed their emphasis on "personal testimony". JWs are encouraged to pray about the same things, but the "answers" will only be validated as divine if they agree with the WT teachings.
They are to give "prayerful consideration" (you reminded me of this phrase which required a very long circumlocution to translate into French) to the choice of a marriage mate (i.e. a good JW, better if a MS, an elder, a pioneer or a Bethelite), the choice of a career (better no higher education, part-time job for pioneering, best full-time service), etc.
In case of doubt, prayers should bring the doubter in the right state of mind/heart (waiting on Jehovah, trusting the organisation). Any different response COULD NOT come from God.
The WT strictly controls God's answers to prayers...
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

What about if one has serious doubts as a member? What if their doubts are so significant that they are considering leaving? What are they encouraged to do? Are they not encouraged to pray and seek another confirmation
Noggin, good evening.
Narkissos answered it very well. If your answer is from God, it will parallel what the JW org. teaches. Because this IS God's organization. Actually you're caught in a "spiritual web".
If you are baptized and have significant doubts, you can bring it up. But watch out!! Your faith and integrity will be questioned. They will answer you according to what the WT Society teaches, but if you just aren't satisfied or continue to bring up doubts they will ask you to meet w/the body of elders. If you stand your ground and don't see things their way, they will awkwardly express that you are in line for disfellowshipment. Then they tell you that you will have (I believe 10 days) to basically change your mind about how you feel. If you don't do anything for those 10 days then they proceed to DF you. Your name is announced from the platform that you are no longer one of JWs. Then everyone including relatives are not to socialize w/you or greet you. Husbands/wives who are still JWs can no longer have spiritual conversation w/you. You are dog poop to all.
Does this help?
Juni
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Thanks Narkisso and Juni
These are extremely insightful responses. I got much more than I bargained for in this shopping trip of thoughts.
Plowing on here... If one is facing DF, and has the ten day clock ticking, would he have an inclination to hit his knees in humble prayer to ask the god of JW to reassure him, or rectify his doubts?
In what form does this reassurance come (if it does)? Emotional epiphany?
Aside from that line of questioning:
Do you ever feel close to the god of JW during prayer? Warmth? An infusion of strength? Peace? If so, doesn't that qualify as spiritual guidance in the form of feelings? Don't be afraid to admit it happens in the WTS, it does not mean it was "true" any more than it means they were really great at manipulating you to get you to do what they wanted. I received this type of experience often in Mormonism. It's all man made, IMO.
Noggin
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

WHO SAID YOU DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR FREE??
Have to go to bed.
Juni
 
under_believer
under_believer 10 years ago

Leolaia: *clap* excellent post.
 
Rooster
Rooster 10 years ago

garybuss  May 9, 2006

 Post 4329 of 4339
since 08-Oct-01




 #1, The Governing Body is the spirit channeler and they alone are the source of "truth".














Damn you are funny..
 
zen nudist
zen nudist 10 years ago

1. the bible is the final say [except when the governing body deems otherwise]
2. the governing body by means of God's Direction via the holy spirit determines what the bible's final say means.[by 2/3rd vote]
3. disagreement with the governing body means disloyalty to God. [unless you are on the governing body]
4. The governing body is not inspired and so can and does make mistakes [but you can't]
5. your catching those mistakes is an act of insubordination and treason. [unless you are a JW lawyer]
6. independent thinking is of Satan. [unless you are of the governing body, then it is your job]
7. Waiting on Jehovah to fix things is loyalty [unless of course you are a non-JW, then it is dis-loyalty to Jehovah]
 
AuldSoul
AuldSoul 10 years ago

It strikes me that you want affirmation of your initial assumption. You have rejected almost everything else as "not quite what you were looking for." However, as Narkissos has pointed out, there is no pressure to express such an experience as you posed at the outset. Any or all of the points that Narkissos, GaryBuss, zen nudist, or I have posted are equally correct.
The fact is, whatever convinces a specific individual in the group is satisfactory to everyone else whether they were convinced by the same means or not. If I said I knew it was the truth because of the scholastic atmosphere at the Kingdom Hall, I would get several appreciative nods and a few comments about how amazing it is that different things draw different people.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
 
Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

Hello AuldSoul
You are completely correct. I do have a set of circumstances in mind that I want to vindicate. If it is appearing far too myopic on my part then I apologize. I know what my experience was when I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was told that my experience was unlikely or probably rare. So I wanted to find out how far on the rare side it was.
Revelation is for the main leaders producing watchtower literature not exactly for the general lay member. However, members are encouraged to pray and seek guidance for important life events and can feel close to god through basking in some form of spiritual closeness attributed to the JW god.
Likewise, investigators or "student" looking in to JW especially those coming from other religions are also encouraged to pray about what they are reading and learning. At this point it gets fuzzy. You cleared it up with this:
The fact is, whatever convinces a specific individual in the group is satisfactory to everyone else whether they were convinced by the same means or not. If I said I knew it was the truth because of the scholastic atmosphere at the Kingdom Hall, I would get several appreciative nods and a few comments about how amazing it is that different things draw different people.
And that casts a broad net which also basically includes my experience of asking God if it was true or not (I never did, by the way, the format seemed too contrived to get past the first couple of study sessions).
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Thanks for the patience and willingness to explain much.
Noggin
 
Shining One
Shining One 10 years ago

Snarkie,
You have a lot to learn, old chap.
>I have found a similar pattern among Evangelicals: the "catch" message is, "accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and you will be saved / born again"; but if someone says "I accepted Jesus but I felt nothing particular," the prepared answer is: "trust the Scriptures: you are saved / born again because they say so, even though you may have felt nothing particular."
It is not (usually) about feelings at all (being saved). It is a reasoned approach to the message of the New Testament. It is also a simple formula that practically anyone can understand.
1 Corinthians 15:1-8 "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
That is the gospel but there is more:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:23)
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:3) Believe you are a sinner and in need of salvation.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) Why He came to die.
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Rom. 10:9-12) A promise from God: believe; confess; and profess belief in Christ Jesus.
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (1 Cor. 5:15) The evidence that you are a believer.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10) You are not saved by ANY good works, including baptism. You are saved by grace and for the purpose of doing good works. Don't get the cart ahead of the horse. Sure, we cannot completely separate feelings from reasoning. You first understand the gospel message, then it is up to you to accept or reject it. You don't believe that? I saw my questions answered in an unmistakable way and the realization was at the moment that I finally realized that Jesus claimed to be (and is) God: early Christians worshipped Him: and the Jews expected a God! I set out to disprove the trinity teaching and instead I found the deity of Christ. After that the Holy Spirit made Himself known to me and I embraced the solid doctrines of orthodoxy.
What we receive is peace with God and the peace of God. As a Christian develops into maturity he/she grows in knowledge, faith and attitude. The prayer life becomes more focused and fruitful. The testimony is easier to relay to people who see the evidence of that peace of God. We are the body of Christ: He still works and ministers on Earth, through those who have genuine faith. The inner light is what I refer to: "I am the light of the world" as our Lord said in John 9:5.
Rex
 
free2beme
free2beme 10 years ago

Mormon do the same thing. No difference!
One difference - If your a Mormon you do not see it.
 
KW13
KW13 10 years ago

they don't but they keep fooling themselves.
there is no truth. christ only ever concentrated on one thing, and that was the message. i don't remember him saying about an org, a truth or anything. that was the LEAST important.
 
A Paduan
A Paduan 10 years ago

How do JW know they have the Truth?
I think you could ask "Do they know they have the truth?"
There's a difference between thinking something, hoping for something, having a faith in something, wishing something, wanting something - and - knowing something (whether you desire it or not).
How many know they have the truth ?
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 10 years ago

they just know, duh!
 
Lady Lee
Lady Lee 10 years ago

After reading bits and pieces of this thread I have come to a shocking realization.
The WTS' Governing Body (GB) believes in and has their own Bible Code!!!!
How did I ever miss this?
They take a half a scripture here and a chapter there and a few words somewhere else and connect the dots to provide JWs their "spiritual food"
◦The GB tell JWs they alone are qualified to understand that code.
◦They are qualified because God tells them they are qualified
◦Even if someone comes up with an understanding before the GB does, they will be marked as "jumping ahead" of God's org - a very bad thing to do because only the GB can come to those understandings.
◦No apology will ever be given to the one who understood it first. "Jumping ahead" can result in being removed from the org by means of disfellowshipping (DFing)
◦When the GB finally realizes they were wrong about something (like the end coming in 1975) they blame it on being imperfect men but JWs must still believe every word they utter because they are driven spirit by God's spirit.
◦When they finally realize they were wrong they will blame JWs for jumping to conclusions that the GB never meant even though JWs were told they MUST believe whatever the GB teaches.
◦When they discover they were wrong they will state that they were right about the timing of the evet but just had the meaning wrong.
◦They claim that they are the only ones preaching the "good news of the kingdom" in all the inhabited earth (this good news is that God is going to kill everyone except faithful JWs who believe every word they say)
 
KW13
KW13 10 years ago

yeh, good point L.L
things like only the annointed partake, its become a very important thing yet not in the bible.
 

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Topic Summary
breif background: i am an ex mormon.
that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.
highly reliable, right?



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How do JW know they have the Truth?
by Noggin 10 years ago 40 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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MrsBee
MrsBee 10 years ago

JWs work with IF THEN set up questions base in pure binary logic.... there are only two possibilities for all of their questions...and since they are the ones which fit the RIGHT possibility in all cases they present, naturally they MUST be the right religion...there is no other option!
and it is easy to fall into this binary thinking of theirs because many have been trained by prior religions to think in black and white terms and JWs get most of their converts from already believing people, they dont do well in new territories that no one else, christian has made inroads.
Man that thing right there, I knew I wasnt crazy, they do use that alot dont they ... LOL
 

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Topic Summary
breif background: i am an ex mormon.
that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.
highly reliable, right?



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AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Anders Andersen
Really beautiful Watchtower article about truth
by Anders Andersen 2 months ago
Cota Samuel
My experience with religion
by Cota Samuel 4 months ago
Terry
FORENSIC ANALYSIS: The Governing Body as Lying Liars who Lie
by Terry 14 days ago
Terry
ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUSPICIOUS, CYNICAL and WRONG? IF SO, WHY?
by Terry 4 days ago



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random memory from district assembly
by limbogirl 10 years ago 10 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

i remember being at a district convention when three young mormon men came in and somehow ended up sitting next to me. i was sitting with three of my girlfriends and although we were all 19 years old we had to sit within a row or two of our parents in order to be policed appropriately. the assembly was a yawnfest as usual but the mormon guys showing up added a bit of interest -- i immediately picked up on the fact that they were there for laughs not because they had any interest in becoming jdubs. as soon as they sat down a "super-sister" sitting in the row above began handing them bibles, literature, song books, etc -- she was doing her best to welcome them and let them know that WE were the true religion. at one point we sang a song and the mormons grinned through the entire song and would occasionally point at some of the words and giggle. this in turn made me laugh -- the "kingdom songs" have always had that effect on me and this one was a particularly stirring number that people were really getting into -- i think it may have been 'forward you witnesses' or something similar. as soon as we sit down from singing, "super-sister" above me shoves a note into my hand which said, "sister, there are three mormon men sitting next to you -- your conduct is being watched closely. let your actions provide a witness for jehovah!" of course, the mormons politely gave back the literature, refused to engage in discussion and went on their merry way. i'm sure that "super-sister" probably tells the story about my poor conduct (I laughed) and how it stumbled some mormons and prevented them from knowing the true god.
 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago

Limbo.....You were being 'policed' at 19 years of age?
Good gawd I sit down and have a couple of drinks with my 18 year old daughter.
T his weekend we hope to go to a Tarot Card reader....He's a reverend
 
Sunnygal41
Sunnygal41 10 years ago

lol..........you brought many memories back with this post.............I was in from age 14 to 42 and these assemblies were so much work to even get to.............and, once you were there, all anyone did really was parade around showing off the new outfit they bought for the assembly..........
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

Legolas: Wow, wish I had you for a parent when I was a teenager!
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

Sunnygal --- I was in from a baby until mid-twenties and ALL of my shopping revolved around assemblies and the memorial. 'what are you wearing to the assembly?' 'did you get something new for the memorial?' -- those were the hot topics in my jdub circle. LOL I haven't worn a dress in gawd knows how long -- the mere thought of putting one brings back all of that.
 
Darth Yhwh
Darth Yhwh 10 years ago

The most fun I've ever had at a DC was the last one that I have ever been to. I had alredy begun to distance my self from the WBTS's cult and this was apparent by the shoulder length pony tail that I wore. It was so liberating walking around a convention hall with long hair, a goatee, and a KH badge on my chest. No one knew what to make of me. I got a ton of attention from EVERYONE! It was fantastic.
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

darth yhwh: i'm sure you got plenty of attention...probably from all of the jdub sisters trolling for a mate. secretly they all want the bad boy. but seriously...did you ever notice how the assembly halls were filled with roaming packs of young females stalking the packs of young males. sort of like the movie Grease gone bad.
 
theinfamousone
theinfamousone 10 years ago

i got yelled at once for looking at a girl three rows away!!! i was 17, and it wasnt my parents that yelled at me, it was some fucking random SUPER WITNESS!!! dont worry, i had my kryptonite, you should have seen him squirm when i pushed my cross in his face!!!
the infamous one
 
Calliope
Calliope 10 years ago

my best assembly is the circuit one i just skipped.
ah, that was a good one.
 
Clam
Clam 10 years ago

Assemblies for me as a teenager were an opportunity to look at and meet girls away from the gaze of the Cong. Often witness girls would take along "worldly" friends under the cloak of getting them interested in the cult. I've got some good memories of assemblies.
 
MinisterAmos
MinisterAmos 10 years ago

I've gotten into at least one argument at every one I've gone to. In Alabama I started laughing when a sister on the stage told us how "proud" she was that she only had two complete place settings in the house. If more than one person came to visit she related that she had to wash a cup so that the other could drink. I lost it badly.
At another I was told "you can't walk here" referring to the fact that my 2 Y/O daughter had finally gotten fed up inside and wanted to walk around. We were in the lobby when an accomodator told me "You can't walk here". hot, tired, stuffy and frustrated I answered "just F'ing watch me"
What's up with these badges anyway? Are they stupid enough to think someone might pop in off the street?
 

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A mormon fires back at PBS
by LovesDubs 9 years ago 10 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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LovesDubs
LovesDubs 9 years ago

Like we didnt see THIS coming :smile: My mormon brother who has NOT seen the documentary but DID read this long winded reply from a fellow Mormon, sent this to me for my comments because I told him I HAD watched it. My reply is in the next post. (its long...)
LD
Dear PBS,
> I was disturbed and disappointed in the imbalanced
> portrayal of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints which you aired on April 30 and
> May 1, 2007. I wish to state some of my disgust
> with your method and message. My comments, of
> course, represent my own views and I am not speaking
> in any way as an official representative of the LDS
> Church. Nevertheless, I do have some
> qualifications: I am an adult convert to the LDS
> Church; my masters and doctoral degrees included a
> minor in religious studies; I have been an LDS
> Religious Educator for 34 years, the last 28 of
> those at Eastern Washington University, Pennsylvania
> State University, Brigham Young University, and
> Oregon State University. I teach World Religions,
> Bible and Christian History, LDS History and
> Doctrine. I serve as adjunct faculty of the OSU
> History Department, and on the Boards of the
> Holocaust Memorial Committee and Religious Ad visors
> Association at OSU (the la tter is a coordinating
> body of the 28 religious groups which function on
> the campus of Oregon State University). My
> experience and education have contributed to the
> sense that producers had just accomplished one of
> the most seriously skewed programs I've ever seen.
> When I view "anti-mormon" films and literature, at
> least they are overt in their mission and purpose;
> yours, however, was a program from which viewers
> expect fairness and balance but which delivered just
> the opposite * a sort of "wolf in sheep's' clothing"
> experience. You described a church that I do not
> recognize, which did not portray my beliefs, and
> almost wholly missed the mark for accurate
> journalism.
>
> My family has been staunch and consistent supporters
> of PBS both in time, devotion, and money * this
> program causes me to re-evaluate the respect we have
> held for you and our future financial support. If
> on a subject of which I know much, you present such
> an imbalanced representation, wha t does that mean
> for so many other programs for which I know little?
> That is a disturbing thought.
>
> Before going further, I wish to recognize the
> admirable portrayal of certain topics: The
> international welfare and humanitarian aid efforts
> of the Church; the conversion story of the former
> drug addict; and, your sensitive treatment of the
> challenges of homosexual lifestyle and Church
> doctrine & practice regarding such. Thank you for
> those elements.
>
> PBS Purpose and Vision For days after the program I
> sincerely wondered just how the mission and purpose
> of your presentation had developed. Had it begun
> ostensibly with the intent to broadly "explore"
> Mormonism or was it driven by a darker mission?
> Regardless of the original intent, the show felt
> like the producers at some point progressively
> digressed from a balanced exploration to an intent
> to "expose the under-belly of Mormonism." In an
> interesting comment from one of my university
> students, he said t hat he (a new convert) had
> invited his non-LDS roommates to watch the show with
> him. During the show he felt terrible and wondered
> what "damage" he'd done by so inviting them. But
> afterward, they turned to him and said; "I thought
> we were going to learn something about your Church
> in this program but this was just a rehash of all
> the crap we hear constantly * we didn't learn
> anything new." By the way, the most uniform
> observation I heard from students was that from the
> first minutes of the program, they knew this would
> be a bad experience * it felt dark, ugly, and
> ominous.Did the producers and interviewers just
> become enamored with all the controversy and forget
> their journalistic responsibility? It's a baffle
> to me. But the program evidenced a production that
> seemed intent on:
> 1) "Knocking Mormonism down a notch or two;"
> 2) Tipping the "great American religion" off its
> pedestal" (if it ever were on one); and,
> 3) portraying Mormon his tory and doctrine as
> cultic, deceitful and secretive, absurd, and
> outlandishly weird.
>
> What follows is some comment on areas in which I
> feel you did a disservice and left viewers with
> skewed and erroneous impressions:
> Imbalance Krister Stendall, former Dean of Religion
> at Harvard University and Episcopal bishop of
> Stockholm, Sweden, has stated 3 rules which guide
> his participation on interfaith discussion and
> exploration of other religions. The first two are:
> 1) "If you're going to ask the question as to what
> others believe, ask them * not their critics, not
> their enemies because what one tradition says of
> another is usually a breach of the 9th commandment *
> "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
> neighbour." It is important that we do not picture
> the other person's faith in a manner they do not
> recognize as true;
> 2) "If you're going to compare, don't compare your
> bests with their worsts. Most think of their own
> tradition as it is at its best and they use
> caricatures of the others." In the case of your
> program, it was not so much one religious view
> opposing another,
> it was the slick and sophisticated portrayal of the
> "intellectual and dissident" view verses the
> "un-intellectual and blindly obedient" Mormon
> mainstream and leadership * an unfortunate and
> mistaken dichotomy.Regarding Stendall's rules, PBS
> somehow decided to give a time ratio of
> approximately 10-1 to non-LDS commentators and those
> who are bitter former members with an axe to grind
> (several of whom I know personally). Do those
> persons have a legitimate story to tell and a right
> to tell it * of course. But those persons were given
> the overwhelming amount of time and when time was
> given to the few LDS commentators * particularly in
> part 1 -- it was in short and awkward clips with
> little context and sometimes so weird and irrelevant
> that you wondered why PBS even included the clip.For
> example, with an almost dismissive manner you
> trivialized the Book of Mormon by numerous
> references to a strange and magical translation
> story, DNA accusations of unreliability, and
> Antebellum American context for book which you
> portrayed as very human and very flawed. No matter
> that the book is among the most widely sold books in
> the world, that millions of converts trace their
> conversions to the text, and that intelligent people
> actually believe it. No, the best you could come up
> with on a positive note was a non-LDS "poet"
> commenting on how he really enjoyed the Book of
> Mormon as a quaint self expose of Joseph Smith and
> hot button issues in his culture. Additionally,
> Terryl Givens (a respected author) was given the
> bulk of his time on the first night to an
> exploration of Mormon "dance" as theology * what's
> up with that? Weird, yes; representative, no. So was
> that the modus operandi of PBS * to emphasize
> "weird?" Did Givens misrepresent us? No, but the
> relevance of that portion to LDS history and
> theology was so insi gnificant and strained, and the
> presentation so mystical that it effectively
> conveyed strangeness * a seemingly central intent of
> the producers. And that relatively irrelevant
> portion was given more time than any other issue
> from LDS commentators in program 1 * a shameful
> misappropriation of time.
>
> Mystical strangeness was the hallmark of nearly
> every piece of art, shadowy background, and eerie
> music selections which dominated the show and
> exercised such an oppressive feeling. Did you want
> to portray Joseph Smith and LDS belief as demented
> and strange*perhaps even evil? Even the voice
> intonation and script of the main commentator added
> to the "secret, strange, and oppressive" aura of the
> show which focused on the sensational and eschewed
> the compelling and easy to understand story of the
> Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its
> international growth.As such, the expose was
> masterfully crafted if what PBS wanted to emphasize
> was "strange, secret, an d oppressive." Watching
> the show was akin to reading one of the tabloids on
> the news stand * titillating but unreliable and
> misrepresentative. Is that what the producers sought
> to accomplish? If not, one would ask where the art
> loved by Latter-day Saints was; where was the light,
> cheery and faith filled art, music, and landscape
> which so represents us and is produced 100-1 over
> that which was chosen by the producers? Where were
> the pictures of Joseph Smith that looked normal? And
> where were the devoted, faith filled "normal"
> every-day Latter-day Saints in the show *
> particularly in Part 1? By the millions, they are
> the real story of the Latter-day Saints. Where were
> the intellectuals, scientists, and eminent public
> servants who believe? Apparently including such
> would have worked against the purposes of PBS.
> Doesn't it seem rather contrary to logic to assume
> that anyone who believes in the Church of Jesus
> Christ of Latter-day Saints and its doctrine is
> ignorant, oppressed, or mentally incapable to
> discern "the real story" astutely "uncovered" by
> PBS? That's the message your program conveyed.
> Yes, you did give attention to Mitt Romney and Harry
> Reid, but the context made no effort to cast them as
> reasonably intelligent disciples * rather, it was to
> explore whether a Mormon could be elected to any
> significant office given the strangeness of this
> religion.
>
> Balance in the Issues In Part 1 (Monday evening),
> you took roughly the first 100 years of LDS Church
> history. HALF of that program was reduced to 2
> events * plural marriage and the Mountain Meadows
> massacre. The rest was devoted largely to your view
> of how strange, mysterious, and weird Joseph Smith
> apparently was. Was that the best you could do for
> 100 years of history, accomplishment, and
> contribution?
>
> 1) Mountain Meadows * no question about it, this is
> the darkest piece of LDS history with despicable
> acts by members and local leaders * tha nk you for
> including Elder Dallin H. Oaks comment on it. Among
> historians in and out of the LDS Church, there is
> significant challenge and varied interpretation in
> print on this subject and you covered NONE of the
> debate except a brief statement by one LDS historian
> who said he was satisfied that blame did not lay in
> the office of Brigham Young. But he had maybe 3
> seconds, compared to 20 minutes by critic
> historians. The truth is, the most debatable aspect
> of this story is the knowledge and responsibility of
> Brigham Young. You gave that debate almost no time,
> not even mentioning it as a legitimate point of
> disagreement among qualified historians.After
> allowing critics to lambaste Church responsibility
> for the event you feature a preposterous summary
> statement as proof that the murderous edict came
> from Brigham Young * "Young was governor of the
> territory and nothing happened without his
> knowledge." What a silly statement. The Utah
> territory was a big c hunk of land (encompassing
> current Nevada, Utah, and parts of Wyoming and
> Colorado), and pre-dated telegraph services at the
> time (Mountain Meadows was a 3-day hard ride from
> SLC). Just how did Brigham Young magically control
> and know "everything" going on in the territory?
> And how about the indisputable historical record
> that a rider was sent to Young to get advice on the
> pending crisis but could not have arrived,
> conferred, and returned before the massacre had
> occurred?On a related matter, consider the
> restrained position of Brigham Young regarding not
> harming any individual from the invading forces of
> the United States Army who were heading into the
> valley? He did direct harassment and the capture of
> supply wagons; he did prepare members to once again
> leave their homes in the valley and to burn them if
> necessary to give the army no benefit from arriving
> in SLC. But it is well known that with all the
> skirmishes and threat, no direction was ever given
> to contest by firearms the invasion. Doesn't that
> seem a little contrary to Brigham Young then turning
> around and ordering the deaths of men, women, and
> children in an immigrating pioneer train? So where
> was the balance in the PBS report on this issue?
> You strongly accused Young and others of "running
> out of town" federal officials sent to govern Utah.
> But where was the coverage of those same officials
> acting illegally and mistreating the saints? Again,
> that was a balance you seemed uninterested in
> covering.
>
> 2) Plural Marriage * here again, where were the
> first-hand journal records of this policy and
> practice being a blessing to people, a trial of
> faith that in the end strengthened their testimony
> of Joseph Smith's inspiration in the matter and of
> the Lord's hand in this? No where to be found. But
> by far the greatest disservice done in the PBS
> report and other writings on this subject was to
> cast it as a sex-crazed policy of a lunatic gone mad
> with power * as though this practice was invented by
> Joseph Smith. Did you check into this interpretation
> * or was it just the sensational and pejorative that
> you were interested in?
> Point One: Plural marriage was a common Bible
> practice. COMMON * not exceptional and weird to
> Bible peoples. All Bible believers, both Jewish and
> Christian must wrestle with that. And Jesus himself
> held up as the quintessential prophets and people
> of faith those who practiced plural marriage
> (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc.). The Savior
> even went so far as to liken himself to the great
> Moses and heaven to Abrahams' bosom. Sounds like
> Jesus didn't have a problem with the practice. But
> did you mention that? Of course not * it didn't
> seem to fit in your production purposes. After all,
> that would make plural marriage in modern times a
> restoration of lauded biblical precedent instead of
> a weird invention of Joseph Smith * not a message
> you apparently wanted to r isk conveying. Latter-day
> Saints do not apologize for following the Lord's
> direction on this matter. We have nothing to hide.
> I may personally never wish to participate in the
> practice but it is not a source of
> embarrassment.Point Two: Did you look into the
> history of this with Joseph Smith? Do you know that
> while studying the Bible he came across the plural
> marriages of these early venerated prophets and was
> in such shock that he went to the Lord in prayer to
> ask how in the world such a practice could be
> acceptable? And to his dismay and disgust, he was
> answered by the Lord * but not with an answer he
> could have ever imagined. In our publicly
> accessible scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants 132)
> the Lord answers by saying that He would tell Joseph
> Smith the answer, but once He did, Joseph would be
> asked to live the same law. This is among the best
> known and accessible of historical records on the
> subject but was never mentioned by you. And what a
> surprise * none of the critics mentioned it
> either!Point Three: You erroneously portrayed
> plural marriage as an LDS requirement to enter
> heaven. That is how many fundamentalist polygamists
> think (you gave a lot of coverage to them!). But
> that has never been the doctrine of the LDS Church.
> Celestial marriage is a practice whereby two worthy
> individuals enter a marriage covenant and have it
> sealed by one having priesthood authority * period.
> That policy includes monogamous and plural marriages
> but the latter does not overshadow the former. You
> altogether failed to make this distinction in your
> show even though you devoted 40 minutes to the
> subject And where were the respected LDS voices on
> the beauty of this belief? No where to be found in
> your skewed representation.
>
> 3) Missionary Service * In night two, you devoted a
> fair amount of time to a subject which deserves it *
> the amazing missionary program of the Church. But
> what was t he dominant message you conveyed? It was
> that LDS missionaries are mindless automatons doing
> what they cannot choose not to do * no choice, no
> choice, no choice * "you go, you go, you just go,"
> was the repeated message. And then to make things
> worse, 3 of the 4 voices you gave time to were
> missionaries who apparently went under real or
> imagined duress and subsequently abandoned the LDS
> Church. What a disservice * skewed and bigoted,
> flawed and incomplete. You portrayed such service,
> the LDS culture which encourages it, and the Church
> program which sponsors it as oppressive, mechanical,
> and regimented to the point of intellectual and
> emotional pain. It was Jesus that "commanded" (yes,
> commanded * not lightly "suggested") that disciples
> go into all the world and preach repentance, faith
> in the Lord Jesus Christ, baptism, and enduring in
> obedience to the gospel * "Mormons" didn't make that
> up.Over the years, I have worked with hundreds of
> young men and wo men and older couples who were
> preparing and did serve missions. In my experience
> less than 1% have any such feelings which you
> portrayed as "normal." They deeply desired to
> serve, they saved and sacrificed to serve, and they
> count the time as the best years of their lives.
> Where was that message in your presentation? You
> did give the positive some time but there again, it
> was minor compared to the negative interpretation.
> I can again, only surmise that the overwhelmingly
> positive experience of hundreds of thousands of
> individuals was of little interest to you * you had
> a purpose and that overwhelming set of evidence did
> not fit within your purposes so you largely left it
> out.To your credit however, you did give liberal
> time to the story of one woman convert and how the
> gospel had blessed her. Also, you allowed Marlin K.
> Jensen to tell his mission experience. Thank you
> for doing that.
>
> 4) The LDS Church is secretively rich and power h
> ungry * I think you would have done well to return
> to the public record on this and how President
> Gordon B. Hinckley has repeatedly summarized in
> public interviews the wealth of the Church. Most of
> that wealth is in income consuming, not income
> producing ventures * the bulk of which are chapels
> and other worship and welfare structures and land.To
> the amazing credit and faithfulness of members, many
> do fully observe the Law of Tithing and pay 10% of
> their income to the Church * we don't look at that
> as a suppressive burden But again, that's a
> biblical precedence of which we again follow in our
> day whereas you portrayed it as a mysterious coupe
> accomplished by secretive power hungry church
> leaders. "They have devious plans and bilk their
> members so they can exercise power over them to get
> personal gain and insure that no one questions their
> practices" * was the ridiculous mystique purveyed by
> critics. It's just plain wrong on its face, wrong
> in fact, an d wrong in interpretation but none of
> that deterred the producers.
>
> For many years I have been part of and witness to
> the extraordinary auditing practices of the Church
> to insure that all sacred funds are handled legally
> and appropriately * I can assure you that it is done
> in minute detail. In addition, the Church hires
> non-LDS auditing services to assess its handling of
> these funds and to make an annual public statement.
> While the individual expenditures are not public
> record, those expenditures are publicly audited (a
> requirement by the Federal government for
> "non-profit" organizations).
>
> I am grateful for the law of tithing, that as
> members we can share the blessings granted us and
> elevate our brothers and sisters around the world
> both in and out of LDS membership. Tithing monies
> allows the work to go forward throughout the world
> and those few leaders (very few by comparison), who
> do receive a living stipend receive very little.
> They are poore r than if they held normal jobs in
> the world and anyone who portrays the leaders as
> accessing income from tithing funds to live
> luxuriously is mistaken. Those who publicly portray
> this message are ill-informed or downright
> dishonest.
>
> You did equally poorly on the portrayal of temples
> and their purposes, on Church disciplinary councils,
> and governance. I am very familiar with these
> issues and you did not portray an honest and
> balanced perspective. Again and again your cast and
> backdrops were intended to convey strangeness,
> weirdness, thoughtless obedience, and extreme
> authoritarianism on the part of LDS leaders and the
> membership. You portrayed little respect, a great
> deal of antagonism, and a general avoidance of the
> grandness of the Church and its doctrines. One
> wonders just how the LDS Church could be growing at
> all given your abysmal assessment. Was that irony
> lost on you? Or do you simply explain it by
> adjudging LDS members and c onverts to be from the
> poor and downtrodden, the uneducated and desperate
> and hence largely unknowledgeable and
> indiscriminate?
>
> I could go on with other subjects but I hope I have
> adequately made the point. I'm sorry that you chose
> to do the show you did. I think you have done a
> serious disservice to the viewing public and to the
> reputation of PBS. I believe that viewers were left
> with erroneous ideas and impressions and the
> responsibility for that lies directly on your
> shoulders.
>
> Thomas E. Sherry, May 8, 2007
>
 
LovesDubs
LovesDubs 9 years ago

Dear Bro:
I read most of what Mr. Sherry said...his shackles are up of course...and that is a normal reaction to having anybody not of your own faith, try to portray it in a way that a member would find "fair". My guess is that no matter how balanced the producer tried to make this, condensing over a hundred years of history into a four hour program..she would have failed in the eyes of the Mormons. That is pretty much a gimme. I would suggest then, with the extensive wealth of the church that they produce their own, and perhaps they have, so that the things that Mr. Sherry said were missing, understated, overstated, misrepresented or artfully omitted would have a voice satisfactory to the LDS's members and proponents. The best defense is a good offense.
I suggest you do watch it Curt. Just for the sake of discussion so you can see what other people saw and draw your own conclusions about it. I learned a lot about the history of the Church that I didn't know at all before. The good the bad and the ugly...and there isn't another church on the planet who doesn't have all of those components in its history, I guarantee it. But that is what makes it strong in the long run. Overcoming adversities, learning from mistakes, correcting views, reviewing beliefs and making adjustments. Every church does that. And just because a group changes doesn't make it less credible. The further a church is from mainstream Christianity established over 2000 years...the wackier they look. Been there done that. If I may be up front about it, I belonged to a "high control" sect for 13 years and the LDS is also a high control group. There are rules. The guys...and they are ALL guys...at the top make the rules and the rank and file follow those rules or they are out of the group. The premise is pretty simple. You don't like it here...there's the door. This program showed a maturation of the church over the years and a forming of it as if from clay, and then a honing of the shape of it, and over the years a baking of the clay to make it firm and strong. Many many lives were given and were taken in the process during the prosecution of the Mormons, and during their travels across the country under God awful conditions to find a place of their own to live in peace...and their fighting back against what they perceived as the enemy..those "peoples" (not the individuals but people from the same AREA even) who had killed Joseph Smith in prison. Personally I was amazed to find out Mormons bear (or bore) arms and weren't afraid to kill for their beliefs. I think the common conception is that Mormons are peaceful and nonviolent...and always were. That was a surprise to me. I appreciated the way Brigham Young stepped up and kept Smith's vision alive...rounded up his followers and didn't give up. There was SOMETHING holding those folks together. History has shown that there were many "prophets" that rose up during the 1800s particularly, and churches were founded on many of them that survive even today. Some of their founders wackier than a fruit cake. (see Ellen G. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) Joseph may have been seriously delusional or a visionary but he had a love for God that drew people to him and hey...God has used simple men all along. Fishermen, farmers, carpenters...to be his prophets so why not Joseph? The Bible says "if it is not of God, God will destroy it." Well...so far so good. I'd say VERY good...where the success of this church is concerned. There were many reviews of this program that I read right afterwards, and they were varied from one extreme to the other but many were favorable reviews from Mormons too. Many like myself learned a lot from it. Im a pretty critical person. I have a modicum of intellect and I know Im not getting the whole picture in four hours and Im pretty sure most people watching this...and you had to WANT to watch it to watch it...know they arent get 100% of all information out there on the LDS. The interviews went the full gamut from gushing members to critics to ex members to new members, historians and biographers...I didn't come away thinking that it was meant to bash anybody at all. It gave the good and the bad. But seriously MOSTLY good things about the church. I knew enough about it going in that I would have noticed immediately if the purpose of the piece was to denigrate the church. PBS aired this thing and they aren't about to piss off MILLIONS of Mormons out there many of whom have deep pockets and support PBS. I came away feeling the pride of the members. The strength and determination of the members. The love of God of the members. The incredible beauty of the way they worship which wasn't limited to the gorgeous temples all over the world. The deep seated love and importance...of family. They interviewed young men doing their missions and it went both ways...from coming back disillusioned to coming back rock hard in the faith from the experience. Which I believe portrays the reality. It shows the missionaries doing their preaching work and being treated like lepers out there and I can soooo relate to that having done door to door work myself all those years. NOTHING is harder than selling your religion to somebody else. They interviewed a teenager who found out she had a terminal illness and her incredible faith, and that of her family, and the tight knit group of people who surrounded her made me weep for her. She was CERTAIN she was going to see all of them again and they were CERTAIN they would be with her again because they were all sealed to each other. And that was keeping them happy and close. I was pretty taken by that. What a concept...I think Brigham Young came up with that sealing ceremony to keep husbands and wives together for eternity and to keep their children together with them for all eternity. Very powerful. The whole thing about bigamy and the massacre and all that stuff in the past that nobody is proud of was mentioned and explained and enough said. Nobody wants their dirty laundry out there, but as a JW I saw plenty of it...and when I really got into the history of the JWs and read accounts that WERENT written by JWs...I got a clearer picture of it all. If someone wants to be a Mormon, they are going to learn about the church as it is today and its history from a variety of sources. The church is what it is today because of those skeletons in the closet. What better way to increase your faith than to be tested and overcome even the most powerful of adversaries and persecutions? That is what makes the church invincible and its walls impenetrable. People like Sherry, though the Mormons rally around his kind of reply, shouldn't throw darts at the messengers of what they perceive to be misstatements but should counter publicly with what they believe is the real truth of the matter. You don't gain anything by killing the messenger except the perception that maybe the messenger was right about things you know? If Mr. Sherry put out a reply documentary, I would watch it. I watched the first one because I wanted to learn something. I had an interest. And so apparently, did many other people. I dare say because of that documentary, people went and inquired into becoming Mormons and that cant be a bad thing. And if people left the church after viewing that documentary, trust me, they were headed for the door anyway. I still have a problem digesting the concept of Baptism of the Dead. That just doesn't sit well with me. They interviewed a Jewish man who had gone through the Death Camps and was there BECAUSE he was Jewish and he found out that the Mormons were baptizing people like him who had survived Auschwitz and were baptizing them after death and now listing them as MORMON. He was very very upset by that. He was JEWISH and didn't want anyone looking him up some day and seeing MORMON listed as his religion. The Church conceded that they would go back and "undo" anyone whom they had baptized post mortem who were Jewish during the Holocaust. Like its some switch you can flip on and off. I don't get that still. The piece showed couples getting married in the temple and how rigorous their preparations were for having the privilege of being married there. They had to meet detailed standards to do it and they had to understand the seriousness of the bond of marriage. That would account for the low divorce rate amongst Mormons. I mean...that has to be a good thing no matter how you cut it. The families stay together for the most part and keeping the kids close, marrying within the religion and staying deeply involved in the workings of the church keeps them on the right track. Successful happy members means a successful and bountiful church that everyone benefits from. From where I sit though, becoming a Mormon from scratch like...after having your head stuffed with other religious gunk for decades would be akin to trying to change your skin color! One would have to purge ones brain and refill it with totally new concepts and be ready to give up the life patterns you were used to in order to succeed with the process. I don't know how you did it. Kudos to you. Anyway...are you regretting having asked me yet? LOL! Seriously...take some time to watch it. See if it matches what you yourself have learned over the last what...16 years? Id be curious to know. Proverbs 18:13 says basically that if a man gives an answer to something before he hears the facts of the matter, it is folly. So T-Vo that sucker and watch it. :smile: Love ya always,
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

3) portraying Mormon his tory and doctrine as
> cultic, deceitful and secretive, absurd, and
> outlandishly weird.
OH, you know, Israelites coming to the Americas 2500 years ago, the bizarre and utterly fictitious history in the Book of Mormon, the Temple underwear, the "sealing" of a wife to a husband, the POLYGAMY, baptising at a furious rate all dead people, the doctrine of Black people being basically little Satans incarnate, the polytheistic God was a man and is corporal, no, you know, I don't see why this comes across as cultic, absurd or outlandishly weird. But then again I don't see why more people don't accept excessive consumption of vodka as a cure for herpes.
<<Regarding Stendall's rules, PBS
> somehow decided to give a time ratio of
> approximately 10-1 to non-LDS commentators and those
> who are bitter former members with an axe to grind
> (several of whom I know personally). >>
Did he actually do a headcount? I'm pretty sure I saw the same thing as him, and my count was exactly ONE ex-member being interviewed. He was weilding a chipped old axe ironically.
Sweet dear cult members, always demonising and understanding the ex-member only as a vengeful, hate-filled maniac who's sole purpose is to lie and smear their former religion.
For
> example, with an almost dismissive manner you
> trivialized the Book of Mormon by numerous
> references to a strange and magical translation
> story,
Which is exactly how Joseph Smith related it. Strange and magical it was. Do they deny that what happened in Josephs own words was the Angel Moroni gave him those tablets, and he used the seer stone and the urimm and thummin to translate it? Do they also want to deny that Joseph Smith had a beard? Wore pants? Didn't die a martyr but went out with guns blazing?
> DNA accusations of unreliability,
Ummmmm, yes, the DNA has PROVEN that as all non bewitched members of the American culture already knew, that the Native Americans in this country DID NOT descend from Israelites. It's just a fact, but of course, Mormonism wouldn't recognise a fact unless it was the "fact" that they are right. About everything. Hallelujah and thank the prophetless.
 and
> Antebellum American context for book which you
> portrayed as very human and very flawed. No matter
> that the book is among the most widely sold books in
> the world, that millions of converts trace their
> conversions to the text, and that intelligent people
> actually believe it.

Wow, then Harry Potter must be a true story since its sold (I thought the BOM was free?) millions of copies and has been read by millions of people. Intelligence has nothing to do with the innate ability of so many of us to be duped, hoodwinked, swindled and otherwise intellectually taken captive by inane and ridiculous codswallop. Bottom line: Intelligence does not innoculate you from being deceived.
HALF of that program was reduced to 2
> events * plural marriage and the Mountain Meadows
> massacre. The rest was devoted largely to your view
> of how strange, mysterious, and weird Joseph Smith
> apparently was. Was that the best you could do for
> 100 years of history, accomplishment, and
> contribution?
When Joseph Smith is the sole founder, and writer of your modern "revelations" that "complete the work of Jesus" and are the most "vital means necessary for salvation" (paraphr.) then, yeah, the fact that 12 million or above people follow this man's insanity will put him under just a little bit of scrutiny. If I wrote down in a book that I was the descendant and rightful heir to the British crown, it wouldn't make it true, and perhaps there would be that dratted DNA tests they would insist on before they took my word for it. :smile:
 Latter-day
> Saints do not apologize for following the Lord's
> direction on this matter.
Really? He's contradicting what the "higher ups" on the program publicly stated. That plural marriage was not good, and they were forbidden to practice it.
> We have nothing to hide.
> I may personally never wish to participate in the
> practice but it is not a source of
> embarrassment.Point Two: Did you look into the
> history of this with Joseph Smith? Do you know that
> while studying the Bible he came across the plural
> marriages of these early venerated prophets and was
> in such shock that he went to the Lord in prayer to
> ask how in the world such a practice could be
> acceptable? And to his dismay and disgust, he was
> answered by the Lord * but not with an answer he
> could have ever imagined. In our publicly
> accessible scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants 132)
> the Lord answers by saying that He would tell Joseph
> Smith the answer, but once He did, Joseph would be
> asked to live the same law.
That's what he wrote. I could write that I was shocked and appalled to learn that people had eaten pomegranetes, while privately wanting one like crazy. And conveniently when I prayed to God to ask him about it, He said he would only answer me if I would do it just the same as those other people. Whom I knew had eaten pomegranetes. Oh, well, what a drag, now I have to eat one. I really *hate* this!
You portrayed little respect, a great
> deal of antagonism, and a general avoidance of the
> grandness of the Church and its doctrines. One
> wonders just how the LDS Church could be growing at
> all given your abysmal assessment. Was that irony
> lost on you?
Growth is all that matters. If it is only volume and growth that matters to evaluate the worthiness of a cause, religion, or even a product, that standing alone seems an alarmingly backwards criterion. I guess that folgers coffee must be the most delicious and best because there is more of it for sale than other coffees. Bacteria grow. Scientology is growing. Wal Mart is the largest retailer on the planet.

nuf said. :smile:

I love the cheeky wee Mormons

smellsgood
 
moshe
moshe 9 years ago

Mormons and JW's just hate an informed public. It never registers in their brain that 99.8% of the public might just be right in it's refusal to accept their religion.
 
bebu
bebu 9 years ago

Impressive reply, lovesdubs! You can write any upcoming essays and papers I may have to do within the next coupla years. If I were your bro, I would be swayed into checking it out myself.
smellsgood, you are a cheeky wee thing yourself!  LOL
bebu
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 9 years ago

Smellsgood said:
<
> somehow decided to give a time ratio of
> approximately 10-1 to non-LDS commentators and those
> who are bitter former members with an axe to grind
> (several of whom I know personally). >>
Did he actually do a headcount? I'm pretty sure I saw the same thing as him, and my count was exactly ONE ex-member being interviewed.

Smellsgood, read his quote again, please. He said, "approximately 10-1 to NON-LDS COMMENTATORS and those who are bitter former members with an axe to grind."
He did not say "10-1 were bitter former members". Please quote him correctly. If you object to what he says, at least give him credit or blame for what he actually says and not confuse the issue further by misquoting him.
And, no, it wasn't necessary to do any elaborate counting. We, also, went back over the video to see how "balanced" it was ... pro-LDS vs. anti-LDS. It was easy to simply count the air time given to the anti side versus the pro side. A 10-1 ratio of anti comments to pro comments can hardly be called "balanced" by any reasonable definition of the term.
Yes, we did expect to have the very issues addressed which were addressed. That was a given. It was not shocking to hear them, nor was it a faith-buster. They have never been secret. What was not expected, though, was to have FIVE MINUTES of anti-LDS commentary for every THIRTY SECONDS of pro-LDS comments. How is this fair? How is this balanced?
Although non-LDS love to see anti's slinging mud at the Mormons, fair is fair, and this was not. Balanced, by definition, requires equal time pro and con.
It didn't happen.

Susan
 
bebu
bebu 9 years ago

Balanced, by definition, requires equal time pro and con.
Susan, I have found that the many times I have waited for an answer for the "pro"... the eventual response is always, "Pray and ask God if this is true. He'll give you a sign (burning bosom)." This is what it has always gotten down to when no one could answer a good question. I've also heard, "It doesn't matter what you show me. I give you my testimony...."
Moroni's challenge to us is to sincerely read the Book of Mormon and to ask God in the name of Jesus Christ if the Book of Mormon is true. Moroni promises that if we do these things, God will reveal to us by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true! I give you my testimony that I know by that power that the Book of Mormon is true.
That's always the final word! (Above came from an LDS website btw)
Not trying to be mean-spirited here, though it sounds like it, but this has just ALWAYS been my experience! I am always interested in reading good apologetics from Mormons, but it hits a wall fast and requires a huge leap all while ignoring glaring problems.
I wouldn't ask people to ignore what they honestly consider glaring problems toward any faith, including my own. If the Mormons could answer the comments and criticisms without requiring viewers to be biased (to ignore red flags vs be open-minded), then maybe there would have been a more equitable split of time.  But they cut to the "testimony" just like the JWs cut to "wait on Jehovah".
Having said that, documentaries by PBS are interesting but often sound like they are the last word. They can be annoying sometimes. I take their shows with the approach that I can research on my own those things which sound incredible or biased. So I hope anyone, LDS or not, will relax and just review those areas which may --or may not-- be as PBS presented.
bebu
 
dawg
dawg 9 years ago

For the love of everything sacred, please tell me where this mormon gets his weed! He's in another world like all members of every cult I've ever read.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 9 years ago

I have to admit, I got stuck ("stumbled"?) pretty early in the monologue:


Krister Stendall, former Dean of Religion at Harvard University and Episcopal bishop of Stockholm, Sweden, has stated 3 rules which guide his participation on interfaith discussion and exploration of other religions.
The first two are:
1) "If you're going to ask the question as to what others believe, ask them not their critics, not their enemies because what one tradition says of another is usually a breach of the 9th commandment ("Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.") It is important that we do not picture the other person's faith in a manner they do not recognize as true;
2) "If you're going to compare, don't compare your bests with their worsts.


These are rules that would probably be supported by Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists as well as the LDS Church. I think probably substance abusers would also find these "rules" appealing. To paraphrase,
"If you want to know what substance abuse is really like, ask junkies, not doctors."
Any legitimate analysis must ask THE HARD QUESTIONS. Religionists who can't take the heat ought not be in the kitchen.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

I watched it online and loved it.
Obviously I wondered why they spent so much time on the Mountain Meadows Massacre:
1/ No proven Brigham Young link ergo speculation.
2/ SLC LDS at war tensions unbelievably high.
3/ LDS beaten/raped/murdered/subject to an extermination order (if the JWs want to know what persecution means this is it.)
4/ Leader 'recently' killed
5/ The government have proven time and again unwilling to help and very anxious to attack.
6/ Nowhere left to run.
In light of the above the tragedy is remarkable in its uniqueness and limited scope.
As for anti LDS bias that's great - if the LDS faith wants any kind of robust life it needs challenge. The LDS have one of the best apologetics teams going , very educated people actively researching the material and questioning old assumptions. Why? because for a long time we had no answer to the media pap that the anti-LDS cooked up. The existence of the LDS intelectual apologetic is therefore a response to which we owe much to the anti-LDS.
The Israelite DNA cr*p is trotted out here again and again. Will someone who is a real biologist please stop this lunacy or anyone who actually has some Israelite DNA from 2500 years ago to show us what they mean???. If you want to show the fallacy of LDS Hebrew claims DNA is not a good indicator since the input to the local population numbered in the tens (one small boatload) into a local population that had at least one Asiatic race that numbered in the millions (who had a large battle and wiped themselves out as a unified culture.) For a handful of people's DNA to be traceable 2500 years later from a huge starting population is the sort of bad science that makes the educated LDS laugh. http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon_2.html.
The other side that people can't seem to get over is th elingering hope that there is something dodgy and nasty and horrible going on but really all they can do is make a couple of 5 year olds jokes about underwear and handshakes and that's about it. The LDS people as a culture are brilliant - sure you'll always find someone who had a bad experience and blame the church for their abusive father/violent mother/lack of friends and so on but the reality is all around in Salt Lake City, its in the dedication of the architects who build our structures, its in the striving for excellence on an intellectual and physical level that provides a subsidised college/renowned choir and great artists and its in the desire for good wholesome living of LDS families. The problem is that when you get 'good' people it tends to stick in people's craws and they are desperate to pull them down, justify themselves in another's weakness and when they find one person who's mistakes they can see then they paint every mormon up as a secret porn freak/child abuser/satanist/dannite/spouse beater.
I've lived in the LDS community and they aren't perfect but they aren't weird, they are generally ultra laid back, fun, willing to engage in discussion and have a high level of belief and practical application of their faith. If people wish to stand around talking about crazy beliefs post some of yours up here and I'll return the favour.
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

"And, no, it wasn't necessary to do any elaborate counting. We, also, went back over the video to see how "balanced" it was ... pro-LDS vs. anti-LDS. It was easy to simply count the air time given to the anti side versus the pro side. A 10-1 ratio of anti comments to pro comments can hardly be called "balanced" by any reasonable definition of the term."

Yeah, either way, I don't believe it was 10 to 1, but lets say you're correct:::
Where I think we get into trouble is when as you often see with the Jehovah's Witness, everything is categorized into "pro-JW" vs. "anti-JW." It isn't a boxing match. Also, making it us versus them blurs the facts and makes it about egos rather than sussing out the truth.
What I would be more interested to know; given that you and others in the LDS faith KNOW that there is no extra-BOM evidence, written, oratorical, historical, archaeological, or biological evidence WHATSOEVER that the Israelites migrated to the Americas, why is it not clear that it is FICTION? It's about as factual as Paris Hilton having a genius level IQ.
What purpose does the BOM or any of Josephs Smith's revelations serve in the sphere of the Christian gospel?
Do you have to be a member of the Church to perform the "Salvation rituals"? Or be saved? (I know you'll answer no, just as a JW would, but can you be honest enough with yourself to admit you believe otherwise, or your faith teaches otherwise?)
Doesn't the Mormon Church claim to be first century Christianity restored? Doesn't the Watchtower faith claim the same? Didn't the Way International and countless others claim the same?
Have you read "No man knows my history"?
What's the point of Mormonism? What does it "restore" that was "lost" that is pivotal for "salvation"?

I'm curious.

It would warm your heart no doubt to know that where I'm from, it's swarming with Mormons. The Church has three services that are packed, just want to go in there one day and holler away. It's right by the school, so had alot of Mormon friends growing up.
 

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Mormon 'support' for gays, pressure on the WTS?
by Simon a year ago 21 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Simon
Simon a year ago

The Mormon / LDS church has noticably changed it's stance toward homosexuality and instead of condemning it seems to be supporting protection for people's rights (of course they want to throw some protection for themselves in there as well).
How will this affect the WTS? The LDS is the more-successful counterpart to the WTS, similar age and history and same non-mainstream appeal.
I have no doubt that the LDS church is only changing because they know which way the wind is blowing and society has completely changes it's attitudes towards gay people. Maybe they just want to stay ahead pf the curve before federal legislation enforces people's rights.
Now, can we see the WTS changing their views" Will they be one of the last holdouts? How will they spin such a major change of beliefs? Will they change or would they prefer to abandon their principles if it risks putting them at odds with the government and with tax exempt status?
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

Do I see further "concessions" to accepting it's not just a lifestyle choice?  Perhaps.  Do I see further acceptance of gay people into the congregation if they are celibate?  Perhaps.  These would be to appear more open and deflect direct criticism of being homophobic but I can only ever see this being the minimum to prevent loss of some kind of charitable status.
Do I see them saying you can gay just so long as you are in a legal marriage and don't have sex outside of marriage?  Never.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a year ago

Sorry I don't see the WTS changing its position much on homosexuality, unless they are forced to by law., even then I don't see that happening.
Certainly not in the US at least where the WTS has its Headquarters..
There are a lot of religions in the US and elsewhere that forbid homosexuality.
This relaxing of homosexuality in Christianity probably was set off by the Catholic Pope announcing that the Gay people have certain rights in their faith. 
As for the JWS, they might even ostracize other bodies of Christendom for doing just that. 
 
 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy a year ago

I cant see that happening , but then again I couldn`t see a lot of what the JW religion is doing nowadays as ever happening .
smiddy
 
The Searcher
The Searcher a year ago

Undeniable fact - The WTBTS and its cohorts will change/adjust/compromise virtually any doctrine if it means saving them the loss of ca$h!!!
They will simply fudge things by saying "it's a matter of personal conscience, and each must decide for himself", or by some other form of double-speak. Nature of the beast!

 
Atlantis
Atlantis a year ago

If the Watchtower is willing to allow National Flags to be on display at Kingdom Halls to avoid a fine or tax, then they will do the same thing with the homosexual laws.
I have heard already that in some areas a church can be fined if it refuses to marry homosexuals. When it come to "money" the Watchtower will bow down to anyone or anything.
The 1917 Watchtower informs us that there have been 2 American Flags and a bust of Abraham Lincoln inside Bethel Headquarters when it was started around 1909.
It is only a matter of time! They changed on the vaccinations didn't they? Watch and see if they don't cave in on the homosexual laws sweeping the country.
When it comes to "money" watch how fast they spin a new doctrine!
Atlantis!
 
Jonathan Drake
Jonathan Drake a year ago

This is what I was basing my comment on in the other thread about, "due to this wicked world our way of worship is soon to change." The problem is they really did nothing but take and didn't give anything. The United Nations submitted their findings to the Catholic Church last year or the year before after they investigated them and told them they have until 2017 to reform their policies to allow contraceptives and teach gay rights in their schools.
The Government doesn't care about whether or not they stop speaking out, they don't want them teaching their followers it's wrong. They want them to teach tolerance and acceptance amongst their community and the Mormons aren't going to do it. So all they've done is said, "We'll still not address the real issue and continue to not comply as long as you stop trying to make us."
They even said it themselves. They will support anti-discrimination laws for gay rights as long as people are allowed to disagree without consequence. So obviously, they still want to teach it's wrong, and its this that the government doesn't want.



My information came from this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/27/us/mormon-church-lgbt-laws/




 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago

If they're forced to do it at the threat of loss of cash they'll probably dust off their tried-and-true method of not making it a DF offense, but saying that they've disassociated themselves by their actions.  The end result is the same, the R/F won't know the difference and they'll be able to say that they don't DF people for being gay. 
I don't think they really care too much about getting new recruits - they're happy to be the "few" that are finding the "narrow road."  If they capitulate on the gay thing, I think they're likely to lose a few of the bigots that they've created since the acceptance of gays has been probably the #1 crime that they've been accusing christendom of for the last few years.  They'd much rather reinforce their being the only true religion in the eyes of the R/F and if they're the last ones holding to the bible's bigoted view then that "where else will we go" question becomes just that bit more difficult.
 
Simon
Simon a year ago
Maybe all of those rainbow dusters in the "happy at bethel" video were the initial subliminal preparation for a future change, LOL
 
sir82
sir82 a year ago

IMHO, the Mormons are under pressure because they are so politically active. The winds of history are blowing such that any who oppose equal rights (including marriage) for gays appear to be in the same category as the racists & segregationists of a generation or 2 ago - quite a political liability.
The WTS is not active politically, at least not so openly as the LDS. They can still preach their version of hatred and bigotry toward gays, and it won't hurt them as obviously, at least in the short term.

However, in about 20-30 years, when "gay rights" will be an issue in the past tense, continued bigotry will be less and less tolerated by society in general. That's when the WTS will likely suddenly receive some sort of "new light".

 
ToesUp
ToesUp a year ago

"When it comes to "money" watch how fast they spin a new doctrine!"
I agree with Atlantis! It's all about the $$$$$!!!!!
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago
Sir82 - you make a good point.  The recent concessions that the mormons are making are probably directly related to Mitt Romney's presidential run.  I bet they desperately want to get a mormon into the whitehouse (or at least more positions of power) to legitimize their cult.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a year ago

I'm afraid I agree with Finkelstein and Smiddy - the WTS will possibly even point to the LDS and say that they're becoming 'worldly', aren't maintaining God's standards, etc.
I believe that in a tiny way, the WTS are perhaps softer on gay people than they were. Sort of 'hate the sin, love the sinner'.
The WTS can go strict or liberal on a range of issues, IMO, such as alcohol, dress, grooming, but they have always been strict on sexual matters. I can't see this changing.
Remember, there's a world out there that they must keep separate from 
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a year ago

I'm not too sure if the Untied Nations has the power to enforce churches to do much in changing their non-compliance toward open acceptance of gay rights, such as enforcing the marring within the churches.
The constitutional chartered rights of religion is pretty strong in the US.
There may be some legal pressure placed onto churches including the WTS/JWS  toward not inciting prejudice or haltered toward gay people but it would most likely stop short of churches open and unregulated acceptance.
The possibility of what Johnston Drake pointed out such as the WTS. not DFing people but placing a restraining position onto gays in JW congregations is a slight possibility.
Don't expect to see gay people getting married in Kingdom Halls anytime soon.  
 
violias
violias a year ago

The last I recall we had a MS who was gay ( though never openly  confessed it to boe - but   he told some of his friends and they protected him  ) and the boe said they could not take any action against him unless he did something inappropriate .  I know this b/c well, you know how stuff gets around in the congo . This was in the mid to late 90's. One of the elders I knew told me that you can't DF someone unless they "do" something so just "being gay" was not a sin but having gay sex was.  If he stayed celibate  ( or did not behave suggestively  with other men  ie flirt etc  ) he was ok. What a confusing way to live.



 
Jonathan Drake
Jonathan Drake a year ago

I'm not too sure if the Untied Nations has the power to enforce churches to do much in changing their non-compliance toward open acceptance of gay rights, such as enforcing the marring within the churches.




Accordin to the report, so far as I recall  they only expect them to teach the rights of gay people and a contraceptive. I'm not sure they necessarily expect them to perform the marriages. Also, I agree with you, the UN doesn't really have any teeth. So the deadline given of 2017 seems strange, you know? I'm wondering what exactly they are going to do, if anything.
This may just be my opinion, but gay rights and religious freedom can't coexist. I feel this way because the primary religions of the world rely on sacred books that are thousands of years old and cannot be changed. These books condemn homosexuality. Thus the religions preach against homosexuality as immoral. It's fundamental in the foundation of their faith. If religious freedom exists then we have groups that become, essentially, hate groups inculcating intolerance.
i just don't see how they can coexist. I expect religion to be forced into a minority like groups such as the KKK. Except much worse, since these groups will view it as persecution and that will just fuel the fire.
 
ToesUp
ToesUp a year ago
Maybe they will come up with Gay/homosexual fractions. lol
 
Las Malvinas son Argentinas
Las Malvinas son Argentinas a year ago
There have been and continue to be prominent Mormons in politics.  They must be tired of having to explain the reasoning behind the fact that the church didn't allow blacks in until rather recently as well as other inconvenient information.  Softening their stance on the gay issue is likely in part meant to decrease the pressure on Mormon candidates taking more progressive positions and not having to go directly against their church.  Since JWs don't have this ambition, it gains them nothing in the short term to lighten their tone on this matter.
 
sir82
sir82 a year ago


gay rights and religious freedom can't coexist. I feel this way because the primary religions of the world rely on sacred books that are thousands of years old and cannot be changed. These books condemn homosexuality. Thus the religions preach against homosexuality as immoral. It's fundamental in the foundation of their faith.
Those same "sacred books" condone, explicitly or implicitly, bigamy, racism, slavery, rape, and so on. Human society has gradually become enlightened, and the world's religions have (eventually, perhaps after much heel-dragging) caught up. "New light" has providentially appeared, and the "sacred texts" are re-interpreted.
The same thing will happen with homosexuality. Eventually, and after much heel-dragging.

 
Simon
Simon a year ago

Any religious group that changes their beliefs based on taxation or sentiment from the wider society really shows up that their beliefs are far from inspired. I would have more respect if they stuck to their principles and beliefs even if I didn't agree with them.
Marriage equality is certainly changing society and is already becoming viewed in the same was as race and gender equality. Certainly in 5 or more years time it will look very very odd for any large group to be preaching what is essentially a message of hate and intolerance against a specific group. They know they have to change if they want to retain their exempt status so change they will - bye bye beliefs.
It will be spun as "new and better understanding of the scriptures" as the LDS are doing. They are just getting ahead of the train. The WTS will trail behind and may even try to make an issue out of it so they can gain a few "persecution points" before they adapt.
But when they adapt - remember that it was mankind and society who forced their new scriptural understanding on them, not their god giving them any new light.
 

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Mormon 'support' for gays, pressure on the WTS?
by Simon a year ago 21 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite a year ago

I would expect the Muslims to embrace the LGBT community before WT did.
But then I never expected JWs to embrace the world wide web and be carrying around Internet Pornography Access Devices [IPADs].

 
mynameislame
mynameislame a year ago

Probably just a PR stunt to help improve their reputation after  the proposition 8 movie showed them in a pretty bad light. If you haven't seen it, it is probably worth watching.  Makes me think twice about voting for a Mormon president.
But this really doesn't  have a comparison to the JWs since they would never comment on something like this publicly.
I don't know if my area was unusual but knew a number of gay JWs and a few more I am pretty sure were gay. As far as I know it was always OK to be gay as long as you were celibate. But the same went for single straight people too.  I didn't find JWs any more homophobic than the general public. If anything they were less so, I never new any JW that hated someone for being gay. As kids we made the usual jokes but even that wasn't with any malice, just stupid kids being stupid.
I'm sure they find gay marriage to be a sign of the times but to be honest I feel like the bible does condemn homosexuality and if you claim to believe the bible you would have to condemn homosexuality.
One thing I did find odd was how many JWs I knew didn't understand how you could be gay if you never had gay sex.

 

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Topic Summary
the mormon / lds church has noticably changed it's stance toward homosexuality and instead of condemning it seems to be supporting protection for people's rights (of course they want to throw some protection for themselves in there as well).. how will this affect the wts?
the lds is the more-successful counterpart to the wts, similar age and history and same non-mainstream appeal.. i have no doubt that the lds church is only changing because they know which way the wind is blowing and society has completely changes it's attitudes towards gay people.
maybe they just want to stay ahead pf the curve before federal legislation enforces people's rights.. now, can we see the wts changing their views" will they be one of the last holdouts?



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Article "How Mormons Will Come to Accept Homosexuality" - roadmap for JWs?
by sir82 a year ago 5 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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sir82
sir82 a year ago

Check out this article:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/11/mormons_will_accept_homosexuality_mormon_church_leaders_use_revelation_to.html
It gives a history of how some Mormon doctrine has changed over the years.
Any of this sound familiar?

In fact, Mormons have been revising their doctrines all along. The revisions are driven by cultural and political changes, though the church attributes them to revelation.


Mormon leaders didn’t see the light till they felt the heat. Beginning in 1882, the U.S. government outlawed polygamy, jailed church officials, and confiscated church property. In 1890, the Supreme Court upheld the confiscations. That’s when revelation struck the church’s president, Wilford Woodruff:
President Woodruff saw that the Church’s temples and its ordinances were now at risk. Burdened by this threat, he prayed intensely over the matter. “The Lord showed me by vision and revelation,” he later said, “exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice,” referring to plural marriage. “All the temples [would] go out of our hands.” God “has told me exactly what to do, and what the result would be if we did not do it.”
Woodruff issued a manifesto pledging that the church would no longer sanction polygamy.
The article goes on to speculate that similar cultural or legal pressures could force the Mrmons to receive a new "divine revelation" about homosexuals. JWs seem to respond with "new light" to cultural, economic, or political pressure as well.

How much you wanna bet that, for example, if the US threatened to remove the tax-exempt status of any 501(c)(3) that refused to admit homosexual members, or threatened to confiscate property of religions that refused to perform gay marriages, suddenly there would be "new light" emanating from the JW popes?
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy a year ago

You bet they will someday! All they have to do is use the same twisted reasoning they use for their doctrines and apply it to that--and bingo they will change it. I have no doubt they will have new light.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago

I don't see it happening anytime soon. Not as long as those homosexuals insist on designing tight pants for us to wear!
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago


sir82 - "How much you wanna bet that, for example, if the US threatened to remove the tax-exempt status of any 501(c)(3) that refused to admit homosexual members, or threatened to confiscate property of religions that refused to perform gay marriages, suddenly there would be 'new light' emanating from the JW popes?"
Strangely enough, I can actually see the courts steadily going in that direction in the future, but considering the rhetoric coming out of WTHQ reiterating all their ultra-conservative stances, they seem far more inclined to draw lines in the sand than compromise, these days.
Which, IMO, is good, in that it ensures their decline.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago


Strangely enough, I can actually see the courts steadily going in that direction in the future, but considering the rhetoric coming out of WTHQ reiterating all their ultra-conservative stances, they seem far more inclined to draw lines in the sand than compromise, these days.
Which, IMO, is good, in that it ensures their decline.
I tend to agree, what I really see happening if some country begins sanctioning religions that ban homosexuals from joining is this:
1. Fight it to the highest court in the land.
2. Upon losing, issue a public statement that they do not ban homosexuals from joining nor do they excommunicate them for being homosexual.
3. Issue a private letter to the elders (not to be read nor disseminated publicly in any way) that anyone who participates in homosexual behavior (not mearly being a homosexual) has disassociated themselves by their actions.
4. Stop talking about homosexuals as openly in the publications, but continue to make it a topic for CO talks and at conventions.
With any luck the reputation their earning themselves in the legal world will make it obvious what they're doing and expose them.
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy a year ago

I actually don't see the WT fighting this in court--for if they did, that would put them alongside bible believing churches in doctrinal matters. I see them embracing it in the future, and for that they will grow. They are a self preservation cult, and as they have proved in the past they are willing to compromise their beliefs when it suits them financially--just think Mexico vs. Malawi, UN, etc etc. This is the one hot button issue that the media loves to embroil itself in--just think about it, all the things the WT has done--forbidding blood transfusions, denying children a normal upbringing, denying all holidays, ruining families and lives--yet the media could care less, but if they stand against gay marriage, they will face the wrath of the liberal media and the world--and their membership would falter. They will adapt, if ever so slowly!
 

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How can I convert Mormon to something else?
by Iamallcool 2 years ago 11 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw friends
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Iamallcool
Iamallcool 2 years ago

I know this question might be in the wrong forum, maybe I will have the courage to post this question at the Mormon ExJW forum.
 
ILoveTTATT
ILoveTTATT 2 years ago

Mormon ExJW??? wtf?? Does that even exist?
 
carla
carla 2 years ago

Have you tried the mormon curtain forum? (just like this site only for ex mormons, last I checked which has been awhile)
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 2 years ago

oops, I did not mean to say "Mormon Ex JW". I meant to say Ex Mormon, sorry for the "typo".
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

When you figure out how to convert someone like it's just some formula that works all the time, let us know so I can convert my wife from JW to ex-JW. Otherwise, read Steve Hassan's COMBATTING CULT MIND CONTROL and his two newer books.
There is no actual "red pill."
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

Let me guess - you have the hots for one of the "and I'm a Mormon" ad chicks?
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

I opened and commented on this thread and now all my ads are for mormon.org. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"I believe that God allows us to make U-turns in life." Learn more at mormon.org.
Screw that.
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

You have to figure out if heaven is more appealing than being god of your own planet.
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 2 years ago

Sir82, I think she is cute, they called her Krazy Coupon Lady . She is a Mormon.



 
TD
TD 2 years ago

Why would you want to?
I don't agree with Mormonism, but they seem to get a lot of positives out of their faith.
 
bohm
bohm 2 years ago

Just look at him with a serious and solemn look and tell him he is wrong.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 2 years ago

Torture has been proven effective.
 

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Jw.Org & Mormon.Org See something similar? Me too...
by TeenageInsider 3 years ago 22 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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TeenageInsider
TeenageInsider 3 years ago

Http://www.Jw.Org
Http://www.Mormon.Org
Has anyone noticed the site is veeeery similar? They both use the 'Color Blocking' technique.
They use the same creepy propaganda pictures.
look around both sites, there quite similar.
Just saying, has anyone noticed?

-Ti
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

Good catch - I agree.
 
TeenageInsider
TeenageInsider 3 years ago

@Cofty, Aint it creepy?
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

Hey Anthony Morris is a good BYU Morman boy. Maybe they are in cahoots? Perhaps Warren Jeffs submits some of the work as a commuter Bethelite.
 
trujw
trujw 3 years ago

I am sure jws ripped it off like everything else
 
Ticker
Ticker 3 years ago

The two religions share a great deal in common. They both have their roots in Adventism and Miller, both have apparent links to the Masons(Joseph Smith confirmed Mason-Charles T. Russell very strong evidence for being a Mason), and both believe in a Jesus that is very different from Christian theology. They share many similar trates in indoctrination, thought blocking, and control techniques. They differ somewhat when it comes down to core beliefs such as Mormonology teaches a phyisical conception initiated between God and Mary, Jesus and Satan are brothers, 3 different heavens-Celestial(Which has a higher and lower level),Terrestial, and Telestial, Doctrine and Covenents section 132(polygamy doctrine), as well as they will become God's themselves, etc. They both believe in works based salvation and that one must belong to their religion to have any chance of salvation.
So yes it would not suprise how similar they are with their online presence. Although I think the LDS may have a slight advantage over the Watchtower when it comes to the internet. They make a little better use of it to mislead people and are not quite as archaic when it comes to modern technology. The net is still putting a damper on their activities though which is possitive but LDS seem to be the stronger of the two.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

I don't see any "How to Masturbate" videos on the Mormon website.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 years ago

Yikes! My last comment makes me begin to worry about myself.
"Billy, go to your room. The adults are trying to have a conversation here!"
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 years ago

Good find.
I cannot believe the Find a Mormon search. It looks like a great way to pick up. If you do a search on Jehovah's Witness there are a whole range of people that converted from JW's to Mormons.
http://mormon.org/me/3MY6/Jay - My father and I joined the church of Jehovah's Witnesses when I was 13 years old. I was a very active member of that church and read my scriptures daily. As I matured, I began to have many questions that could not be answered by members of that church. I was told to "go on faith" that what they were teaching me was true. My biggest question was after reading the Old Testament and learning all about the prophets that led God's people. There were always prophets to guide the people...Why don't we have a Prophet today? I decided that I needed to find answers elsewhere.
http://mormon.org/me/7VDG/Jessa - I had always struggled with what I need spiritually, at 15 I became a very active Jehovah's Witness. At 19, I questioned things and began my search for the true church elsewhere. I talk to many pastors of different with religions and as I studied on my own reading just the Bible I knew they were wrong. I remember being in the car with my husband and told him I want to Book of Mormon, just to read with an open mind "Just to see what it's about".
http://mormon.org/me/9MW3/Maggie - I was a Jehovah's Witness my entire life until I was 18. Bryan was a Nondenominational Christian. Being Mormon filled in the gaps in our faith and brought us closer together.
http://mormon.org/me/7ZKR/Briana - I was raised in a very strict Jehovah's Witness home until I was kicked out at 17, then left that religion. I didn't have much structure in my life. I smoked, drank extreme amounts daily, had foul language, and no real morals. But my life changed dramatically at 27 when I met the Missionaries!
http://mormon.org/me/446R/Judson - I was raised Jehovah's Witness and when I was young I had a very strong love for God. That love was shaken when I was ten years old. My mother died in a car accident. I didn't understand why someone of such love and beauty could be forsaken like I thought she was. I eventually blamed God for her death and for the sadness and loneliness that followed. For most of my life, I was Agnostic.
http://mormon.org/me/7JPS/Kim - Years before I joined the church I was a Jehovah's Witness. I really believed many of their teachings. I felt it strongly. There were things missing though. As I saw others in my church say they had a deep connection with God and Jesus I didn't have that. I felt that I was broken, that I was not able to have that "connection" with God like others did. So, I left and never looked back. 7 years passed and I got married and had children. My husband didn't practice any particular religion - grew up Catholic, but didn't go to church. We both felt the need to raise our kids with a spiritual background of some sort. Of course, neither of us could agree which. We did the church-hopping for some time and kinda gave up. I was invited to a wedding at the "Mormon Church" and figured I'd see what it was all about. When I walked in those doors I had this feeling that I was "home." I never felt that feeling before.
http://mormon.org/me/4F1J/Naomi - I was dating an LDS guy. He was inactive at the time but we had many religious conversations and many questions for each other as I was a Jehovah's Witness. We separated for a bit so I could help my sick mother. During our separation my boyfriend decided to start going to church again. I was very angry. I decided to go to his church so I could learn more in order to prove him wrong.
http://mormon.org/me/5J3J/Edward - I am a father of a little girl, and a husband to a wonderful Woman. I was born into a strong Jehovah's Witness family. I joined there church at 19 years old and served in Missionary Work off and on for 10 years in the area I lived in. And was taught to Study the word of God alot. I was taught to teach people, that started at about 2 or 3 years out. As I got older I was taught how to teach more indepth. I was a Baptized Jehovah's Witness from 19 to age 31, and leave behind 2 parents, 2 Sisters, and there Kids, as there rule states that they can not talk to me anymore.
http://mormon.org/me/7HJ5/Kamiryn - I joined the church almost 2 years ago (March 2010) at the age of 16, I am the only member in my family. I live with my grandparents, one is a Jehovah's Witness, the other an Atheist-- so you can only imagine how thrilled they were when I cam home and said, I Want To Be A Mormon!!! It was rough. from the day I told the Elders I wanted to be baptized to the day i was baptized 2 weeks later... Satan threw every little thing he could in my path, but I knew what i was doing was right, that this is the ONLY true church, and that it was where i was supposed to be.
http://mormon.org/me/9CXB/Erik - I began, at 18 years old, to question faith and devotion. It led me to the southern baptist faith, the church of christ, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and a few others in less detail. Many strong debates and fervent study of the scriptures and histories of the church prepared my mind for the restored church. My prayers and the patient example of members allowed me to see the wonderful path in front of me. I strive to grasp firmly the iron rod and endure to the end leading to the precious gift of exaltation.
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 3 years ago

It doesn’t surprise me that WT copied the Mormons in the way they designed their (JW) website. After all, WT copied the Mormon Church recently when they started up ‘Family Worship Night’.
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 3 years ago

Perhaps the GB could save more $ by having sharing web design departments and content - especially some of those photos of smiling families and people engaged in witnessing. Just airbrush the Mormon elder badges out and you have a pioneer...
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 years ago

Will the two Churches eventually join forces ?
The W.T would have to come in very much as the poor relation , but it could work, about as well as the British coalition government does I expect LOL
 
Listener
Listener 3 years ago

Out of many global horror news stories both sites chose to put up a news article on the Connecticut shooting.
The mormons published theirs a few days prior to the JWs. The mormons article is far superior to the JWs.
 
falseprophet
falseprophet 3 years ago

Also lds.org
 
00DAD
00DAD 3 years ago

The look is similar, but the Mormon site looks more like a dating site. Bizarre. Religions are just weird. I'm done.
 
sir82
sir82 3 years ago

Undoubtedly both religions hired the same website design firm.
It seems that the WTS is carefully observing the Mormons, and copying what it can get away with, without being too overt. They probably admire their growth rate, and undoubtedly admire their wealth and growing prestige (US presidential candidate, for example).
I would not be at all surprised if the GB is racking their brains, trying to fit together a half-dozen scriptures to justify imitating the Mormons' tithing requirement.
 
donuthole
donuthole 3 years ago

JW's need that dating app on their site.
 
NVR2L8
NVR2L8 3 years ago

Sir82,
I doubt the WTS would hire an external firm for their website...they often brag of the accomplishments of their in-house projects...MEPS (program developped to print in multiple languages) is one example. Also I know of some IT engineers who volunteer their time and expertise so the WTS doesn't have to pay external firms...
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 3 years ago

The two religions share a great deal in common. They both have their roots in Adventism and Miller, both have apparent links to the Masons (Joseph Smith confirmed Mason, Charles T. Russell very strong evidence for being a Mason), and both believe in a Jesus that is very different from Christian theology.
First, I see no overt similarities in the two sites except both are religious. Chances are you people would find any religious art “creepy” because you’re critics. But if there are similarities, I don’t believe either site borrowed from the other.
As to your allegations above, the two religious movements are vastly different. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established in 1830, well before William Miller shaped his controversial eschatology. Joseph Smith, in fact, was a vocal critic of Miller and wrote a number of critiques of Miller’s theology and his errors. You’re also off base about Adventism (which came after “Mormonism” by several years, BTW). There are far more differences than similarities in theology, eschatology and philosophies between Mormonism and Adventism, and maintaining that there is reflects an embarrassing ignorance of American religions. Mormonism is a restorationist movement and Adventism is a protestant movement.
The ancient church had far more in common with the LDS church. For example, the ancient Christian church believed not only in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and, but that He was known to Old Testament prophets as Yahweh, or Jehovah.
◦An organization headed by a quorum of twelve apostles;
◦An open canon of scripture;
◦A foundation based on apostolic authority, including the Keys of the Kingdom with the ability to bind on Heaven and Earth;
◦The authority to baptize by water and confer the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands; also, to cast out devils;
◦Revelation, such as theophanies, angelic ministrations, and the Holy Spirit;
◦Prophecy and healings;
◦Witnesses. The followers of Jesus saw the many miracles Jesus performed just as the Mormons saw many miracles and healings. The early apostles saw the resurrected Christ and spent 40 days off and on with Him learning the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. In like manner, every major vision received by Joseph Smith was witnessed by at least one other person. Three others who were impeccible witnesses saw the angel, heard the voice of God and saw the gold plates. The scriptures state that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
◦Offices such as bishops, elders, seventy, priests, teachers, deacons, evangelists, etc.; and
◦Belief in baptism for the dead (1 Cor. 15:29), the physical resurrection of all mankind, be they good or evil, and that the elect can become coheirs with Christ, inheriting “all that the Father has.”
The only church today that has the same organizational structure and basic beliefs is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There’s also substantial evidence that the church not only believed that man has an immortal spirit, but had a premortal existence, a concept now popular in numerous near death experiences. As far as I know, the LDS church is the only church that believes in the premortality of man or baptism for the dead. People decry our secrecy in some matters, but that was one of the faults cited concerning the ancient church. As LDS author Hugh Nibley noted: “One of the first questions that Clement, the ardent investigator, puts to Peter is, ‘shall those be wholly deprived of the kingdom of heaven who died before Christ's coming?’ To this the apostle gives a most significant answer: he assures Clement that the people in question are not damned and never will be, and explains that provision has been made for their salvation, but this, he says, is ‘as far as we are allowed to declare these things,’ excusing himself from telling more: ‘you compel me, O Clement, to touch upon things which we are forbidden to discuss.’”
They share many similar [traits] in indoctrination, thought blocking, and control techniques.
Complete and utter nonsense. Please cite your references. Mormons are free to visit other churches, read the religious materials of other churches, have friends who aren’t Mormons; we aren’t shunned and we can question doctrines and visit websites like this.
They differ somewhat when it comes down to core beliefs such as [Mormonism] teaches a [physical] conception initiated between God and Mary, Jesus and Satan are brothers, 3 different heavens-Celestial (which has a higher and lower level), [Terrestrial], and [Telestial], Doctrine and Covenants section 132 (polygamy doctrine)....
We believe that Jesus is physically and literally the Son of God, but we have no doctrine on how it happened. For example, I don’t know anyone in the church who believes there was physical copulation between God and Mary, though there may be some. Still, it’s not a church doctrine nor should it be. We believe that Mary received the Father’s seed through the instrumentation of the Holy Spirit, as stated by scripture.
As for Satan and Jesus being brothers, spiritually, yes, we believe all men are brothers and all women are sisters. In the premortal world, all of us attended a council in Heaven. Lucifer was an extremely brilliant, articulate and competent entity, and one of great power. Jesus, however, was “more intelligent that they all,” and He sustained the Father in His plan for the human race. Lucifer, however, sought to do an end run around the plan by negating free agency and thus saving all mankind through compulsion, so he urged, “Give me thy glory” (power). The Father, unwilling and unable to use force, “chose the first.” Our scriptures state that the latter was wroth and led away many. So yes, in that sense we all are brothers and sisters of those who rebelled, including Lucifer. But we’re also told that the one known as both “Jehovah” and “Jesus” was the firstborn of all spirits and of superior power and intelligence.
As for plural marriage, yep, guilty as charged. As to why, one must understand that God gave the patriarchs their wives, and the only sins they committed were taking foreign wives out of the Covenant. As Justin Martyr noted “the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them.”
Peter spoke about the “restoration of all things,” which God would bring about in the latter times (Acts 3:18). Since the LDS faith declares that it is the beginning of that fulfillment, plural marriage was one of the sacred principles restored. Another is blood sacrifices, which must again be conducted in the future Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Malachi wrote: “and [the Lord] shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.” (Malachi 3:3-4) In our day, we have no need to do blood sacrifices; nevertheless, such has to come about to fulfill scripture as part of the restoration of all things.
...as well as they will become [gods] themselves, etc. They both believe in works based salvation and that one must belong to their religion to have any chance of salvation.
That man can become as God is an ancient doctrine that also is held by the Orthodox faith. “Jesus became what we are so we can become as He is,” is a familiar refrain. The early church fathers also debated this doctrine, known as Theosis. You can read about it here.
Regarding salvation, we believe exactly as the ancient church did. We believe in salvation by grace, but that works such as baptism are requisite to obtain it. Jesus said, “He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved....” Why didn’t He just say, “He who believeth shall be saved”? It thus becomes the Christian paradox: “One cannot be saved by works, but one cannot be saved without them.”
The final fallacy is that one must be a member of our religion to be saved. Complete nonsense. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to explain further. Suffice it to say that we don’t believe in a never-ending hell of fire, but that hell is remedial in nature and many will experience it. But not because they’re not “Mormons,” but because they live in wickedness. The scriptures say that eventually “every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ.” So if you’re a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist or whatever, you will eventually subject yourselves willingly to Christ.
 
Balaamsass
Balaamsass 3 years ago

I still say old Anthony Morris is reaching out to his old BYU Alumni........He probably wears the special under garmets....
 

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Jw.Org & Mormon.Org See something similar? Me too...
by TeenageInsider 3 years ago 22 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Cagefighter
Cagefighter 3 years ago

If only Bethel could field a football team we would have the best rivalry ever, BYU vs Bethel! I would def watch that.
 
rebel8
rebel8 3 years ago

Comparison chart: Ex-JW and Ex-Mormons
 
cobaltcupcake
cobaltcupcake 3 years ago

Billy - LOL!

All those former JWs - just trading one creepy cult for another.
 

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Topic Summary
http://www.jw.org.
http://www.mormon.org.
has anyone noticed the site is veeeery similar?



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The New York Dolls
by Dagney 8 years ago 4 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Dagney
Dagney 8 years ago

Any fans?
On Sundance Channel there is a documentary on the Dolls, primarily on Arthur Kane, the bassist. He became a Mormon after hitting rock bottom in the '90's.
What I found interesting is when Arthur was invited to play a reunion gig in '04, his local Mormon bishop and friends got money together to get his guitar out of hock and they helped him get on his way. They were happy for the opportunity for Arthur to play with his old band and wished him well. I could not help but think if this situation happened with JW's, they would no way be supportive, in fact they would discourage him from any contact with his former friends, unless it would be to preach to them.
Anyway, it is a good documentary, and an interesting bit of music history. Quite fun.
Edited to add: LOL...the name of the show is "New York Doll."
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 8 years ago

I agree, it's a must see for any rock fan
 
4mylove
4mylove 8 years ago

Good documentary! Saw it a while back.
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 8 years ago

"They were happy for the opportunity for Arthur to play with his old band and wished him well. I could not help but think if this situation happened with JW's, they would no way be supportive, in fact they would discourage him from any contact with his former friends, unless it would be to preach to them."
True dat.
The Mormons may be a cult, but they will always be a much more successful cult, with much more successful people, than JW's. They encourage education and achievement. The "glue" that holds their members in, despite such completely whacked out beliefs, is creating a lot of "spiritual" experiences, rather than using extreme fear and authoritarianism to own their members. Or at least that's what I've seen in my limited experiences with Mormon friends and acquaintances.
That documentary sounds interesting, I'll try to catch it.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

I remember several times various witness shepards telling me not to be playing music in bands. I should be at the meetings and in field circus. And the end was coming shortly in 75 and I was pissing jehober off by plaing music in 72. And if I didn stop the earth my swallow me up durnig the Big A in 75. Just like in the pink Paradise book.
 

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Hi! Any other Latter Day Saints here?
by ElderBarry 10 years ago 35 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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ElderBarry
ElderBarry 10 years ago

Hi my name is Lisa. I'm not an elder of course and never have been. I was a JW for just a few years and then relocated and left it behind. It's an ugly nasty dark and morbid religion, very anti-social and maladjusted. Now I'm a Latter Day Saint and happy. The LDS Church is almost the mirror image of the WT religion. I'm not a fundamentalist "Mormon" though. Read my profile for a short paragraph about my attitude toward religion in general and the LDS Church in particular. Still, I love the LDS Church! God has never been so real to me as "He" is now. I've been a "Mormon" for just a few years now. I chose the name Elder Barry because that was the name of the elder, the missionary, that brought me into the Church.
 
MegaDude
MegaDude 10 years ago

Ever read Jon Krakauer's excellent book "Under the Kingdom of Heaven"?
It has an excellent overview of the Mormon Church and some of its splinter groups, along with its fascinating beginnings and history.
 
xcaliber
xcaliber 10 years ago

I am a JW but I dont have any knowledge about later day saints. what is it. Is it like the morman church. And what maid you change?
 
HappyDad
HappyDad 10 years ago

Hi Lisa,
Welcome and just wanted to let you know that Qcmbr who posts here is a Latter Day Saint. You might want to PM him for whatever reason you are looking for LDS's on this forum.
HappyDad
 
Justin
Justin 10 years ago

So are you a "New Order Mormon" - a person who chooses to remain in the LDS while not being able to accept all of the religion at face value? Walter Lippman once said that those who are liberal Christians say that they believe in a "higher sense" - but the fact remains that they believe an a different sense from fundamentalists. But it is interesting that, while the leadership of the LDS Church had no intention of making it possible for members to believe in a "higher sense," the degree of control is not as great as with JWs and therefore it is possible for Mormons to be liberal in their approach. I wonder, if such had been possible with the JWs, would you have remained a JW?
There is a board for New Order Mormons - http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319220 . Perhaps you will find your experience is similar to that board's posters.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 10 years ago

No. I've had numerous discussions with them however. Just like this is an ex-Jehovah's Witness forum, the Mormons have theirs as well.
http://www.exmormon.org/goodsite.htm
 
anewme
anewme 10 years ago

Welcome Elderbarry, I too am much happier now!
I dont go to church at all!
Instead I am everyday seeking ways to be kind and generous and good toward my fellow man.
 
looking_glass
looking_glass 10 years ago

No, I am not a LDS, nor a JW. When I left the JW religion, I studied other religions, including LDS w/ a woman I worked with. My personal opinion was the LDS are a lot like JWs and their structure system is very similar. In particular, I did not like the way they treated women or viewed them. I also felt that their shunning practices were far to similar to JWs. I discontinued my research of the religion.
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

Welcome Elderbarry, I too am much happier now!
I dont go to church at all!
Instead I am everyday seeking ways to be kind and generous and good toward my fellow man. THIS SAID BY ANEWME~~~~~~~~~ I am of the same mind as anewme. For me, the Mormon faith is too much like the JWs. But whatever pleases you; it's your decision. Juni PS Welcome to the forum!
 
wozadummy
wozadummy 10 years ago

Hi ElderBarry,
I,ve been both, as a kid ,a Mormon ,a deacon
Please answer this
A:Negroes were refused preisthood and marraige in the temples and especially to white people - this command given thru the "prophets"...but oh look some of this changed laterso God must have made a mistake mmm..?
B:After living on dog bones and charity because my unbelieving father was unemployed for months with no government relief ,the Elders kept track od the 10% tythe and demanded it of my mother when father got back to work...is that cruel or what?
C:Of all the missionaries that stayed with us only one when going back to the States did'nt become a homosexual ,and he was Bi! What's going on here?
D: Years ago 60 minutes did a show on Mormon homosexual men and in the process of the church "helping" them to overcome this the "treatment" was to expose them to electric shock to their genitals when aroused watching porno movies! How Christian is that ?
I could go on but I don't want to seem as though I'm attacking you as I'm not but sincerely would like to hear your view. None of this is hearsay and to me these organisations just show how controlling and demonic they are.
Steve
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya! I'm LDS too.

A:Negroes were refused preisthood and marraige in the temples and especially to white people - this command given thru the "prophets"...but oh look some of this changed laterso God must have made a mistake mmm..?

The whole world was denied the Priesthood including the tribes of Israel while a privileged group called the Levites held it for a long time, when Jesus came the gospel wasn't preached to anyone not a Jew until God then revealed that it was time to take the Gospel to the gentiles and the Priesthood was given to Greeks and others for the first time (and they decided post-Christ to do away with circumcision.) In all cases where a blessing is denied someone it is for one of two reasons. 1/ They (either collectively, their ancestors or they as an individual) have done something to reject it at some point. 2/The current holders of the responsibility aren't fulfilling that responsibility. In the case of the Priesthood I suspect that a combination of both were part of this and that the tragedy is it took us so long to be ready for God to finally be able to say - now share it with them - a change in practice just as great as taking the gospel to the gentiles. If you had been back in the time of Jesus you'd have posted a similar question about the preaching work then and possibly mentioned the convenience of God changing His mind. Does God change His mind? Ninevah?

B:After living on dog bones and charity because my unbelieving father was unemployed for months with no government relief ,the Elders kept track od the 10% tythe and demanded it of my mother when father got back to work...is that cruel or what?

Your use of loaded language does not convey what should and probably did happen here. I have never once met any elder who 'demanded' tithing. Did your Mother apply for welfare? You talk as though the church ignored your need (the LDS church produces vast amounts of food aid across the world and to its members - I know I've been on the receiving end and in turn I've been involved in financial aid, work projects for the needy and in delivering groceries to those struggling to make ends meet.) Of course claiming to be God's true church makes it difficult when a teaching designed to promote reliance on heaven and open the doors to blessings goes against the thinking of mankind - but then most people think God 'made a mistake' when He said tithing was required otherwise they'd not have changed their doctrine.

(Old Testament | Malachi 3:8 - 10)

8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.





????? I know literally hundreds of missionaries and returned missionaries and of that total 5(??) turned out homosexual. Basic stats.

D: Years ago 60 minutes did a show on Mormon homosexual men and in the process of the church "helping" them to overcome this the "treatment" was to expose them to electric shock to their genitals when aroused watching porno movies! How Christian is that ?

Using 60 minutes as your source of info - how stupid is that? No seriously have you studied this topic at all? Did you find out whether this was current scientific thought at the time? Did these people want to lose their homosexual feelings and were willing to try this ? What was the church's role - did it sponsor the procedure or did it take an active part...I could go on but at least we didn't reduce them to piles of salt which technically is possibly a divine solution to persistent offendors. Revelation isn't received for everything and as you'll notice the bible is pretty sketchy on homosexuality and advice - the church leadership tried something and it clearly didn't work.

I could go on but I don't want to seem as though I'm attacking you as I'm not but sincerely would like to hear your view. None of this is hearsay and to me these organisations just show how controlling and demonic they are.

'Demonic' - are you a demon expert, have you seen one? I go to church on a Sunday, I sing beautiful uplifting hymns, I worship God, I take the sacrament to remember my Saviour and renew my commitment to Him, I teach lessons about becoming a more Christlike person, about love, kindness and charity, after all that I spend time on the rest of the day checking that people are being looked after and cared for and that any questions they have are being met. Believe me I've seen demons and they aren't in the Church of Jesus Christ.
 
sunshineToo
sunshineToo 10 years ago

Hi, Lisa!
I'm an ex-jw. Welcome to the board, and I'm happy to hear that you've found a religion that you are happy with. That is a blessing.
sunshineToo
 
praiseband
praiseband 10 years ago

Hey Q! Hope you've had a good weekend. How did your "tiny throwdown" with the elders go on Saturday? I sent you a pm, but you probably didn't recognize the name and respond. But, how convenient that a new thread should have started up that would be appropriate to ask the same question here. Your last reply to me (and I have really appreciated them) talked about God the Father and how you hope to attain the title of god yourself someday. I am wondering about your wife one day becoming a god. I am wondering about God the mother. I am assuming from previous info you have supplied that there is one. Do you pray to her also? If not, why? I am assuming there is one, because I understand that God the Father was once a regular human being with a regular physical body. Therefore, there has to be a female counterpart....correct? Can you tell me where they reside since they do have physical bodies. I'm sorry for the naivete of the questions, but since I'm trying to gain a basic understanding I have to start with elementary questions. Thanks! Praise
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 10 years ago

Raised a JW and am an ex LDS person. I would still be LDS for the social structure, but I couldn't buy the religious teaching and felt like a hypocrite(testimony Sunday's anyone?) All religion has nasty things that go on, historically and currently, but frankly, I liked BEING a LDS person more than the others. And LDS people NEVER shunned me when I left(they gave me a BABY SHOWER and offered other help at times after I left!!!)and I still am friendly with them when I see them(I live in another community now).
Personally never had tithing discussions with anyone in the church, but most of my time there was as a youth. I did know of 2 gay guys, but I know hundreds of straight RM's so I don't think it is a major trend. I have never met a nicer group of people and if they are all faking it, they do a remarkable job at it!! If I could get past my conscience (and didn't have to live with my hubby) I would probably be one now. Tithing and all.
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

The bottom line to choosing a religion is this: WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT AND DOESN'T HURT OTHERS BUT MAKES ALLOWANCE FOR KINDNESS AND LOVE TO BE SHOWN TO THOSE AROUND YOU WITHOUT PUSHING YOUR BELIEFS ONTO THEM OR MAKING THEM FEEL A LESSER HUMAN FOR NOT BELIEVING THE SAME AS YOU.
That's my opinion. Peace.
Juni
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hi Praise - I did reply honest! Have a look in your inbox. The idea that we can become like our Father (and Mother) in heaven if we so choose (and if we don't we can still have an incredible fulfilling existence that will make us happy) is a beautiful concept. It makes the scriptures take on a whole new aim - rather than just a guide to happy living it becomes a training guide for Eternity.
 
ElderBarry
ElderBarry 10 years ago

Hi Everyone! Thank you so much for posting back to me!  Yes, Megadude I have read "Under the Banner Of Heaven." I've also read Gerald and Sandra Tanners anti-Mormon books. Before I became a Mormon I read everything against the Church I could get my hands on. During that time I was also very involved in the life of my Ward. I had already made up my mind that:
1. Jesus Christ said that His true followers would be known by their LOVE not by their "correct doctrine." ("Correct" by whose standards?) Other Christians focus on the most nitpicking nonsense imaginable. I have never experienced the Love of God with another people as I have the LDS Church, both directly and through other Latter Day Saints.
2. All religions are simply attempts to give a conceptual structure to the experience of the Numinous. Joseph Smith Jr. had a powerful experience of the Divine and attempted to convey that experience in mythological form: The Book Of Mormon. So, I am unconcerned with the historical factuality of it all. I'm concerned with the FRUIT IT BEARS. I see it bearing very wonderful fruit in my own life, in the lives of my beloved fellow Saints in my local Ward, and the Church worldwide. Being composed of humans the Church is imperfect and you will not see perfection. There is some negative fruit. Yet, it's very minor overall. Yes, the Church is a bit slow and backward as to women, but trust me given time that will change.
When I was a Jehovah's Witness, I NEVER felt that the Governing Body cared anything about me as a person, or even the local elders. I was simply a loudspeaker for their doctrines and a money machine. My fellow Witnesses were suspicious, paranoid, snoopy, and out to find some reason to make trouble for each other. Yuck. Plus I hated the world and life when I was a JW. I couldn't wait for the system of things to end, for the great trib and battle of armageddon. As a Mormon, I love life, and I know that my leaders care about me as a person! My Bishop and Stake President are wonderful men, Godly men, deeply spiritual men, who give so much of their time and effort that I feel humbled. My local Ward is composed mainly of people who also love life, love God, and most importantly of all, love each other. I have genuine friends now, people who are always there for me, and I for them. This is as close to Heaven as a person can get in this life!
I burst into tears when I was baptized! I was so overcome by the Spirit of God! I knew that I had found my spiritual Home. I trembled with elation and the power of the Holy Spirit when I first stepped into a Temple. I never knew how important it is to the human psyche to have sacred space! I do now! A Temple is a very sacred place, far more so than any other building. It's been consecrated, set aside as a something special for God's use. Only those worthy can enter, not just anyone. You have to become worthy and demonsrate that worthiness in your life, not just say, "I'm worthy! Let me in!" The ceremonies in the Temple are special secrets, or should be. It's sad that misguided former LDS Christians reveal so much. Anyway, a Temple is a breathtaking earthly embodiment of the Heavenly Reality and I can FEEL that, experience that, in a deeply moving concrete way. A way that brings light and life and joy into my mind and into my life!
So yes, Justin, I'm a new order Mormon, I think. If a new order Mormon recognizes that myth gives form to Mystery, and that what matters is Divine Love and Transcendence, then yes I am.
I'm not an ex-Mormon, I'm an ex-JW, so I'm not interested in message boards for those who've left the Church. For anyome who has been embittered by the JW experience (I certainly was) and thinks that the LDS Church must be the same, uh uh. They're different as night and day, almost. One is almost complete darkness, the JWs. The other is almost complete light, the LDS church. (No, I'm not starry eyed; it's hard to be starry eyed when you have a very liberal understanding of religiona dn spirituality) So Wozadummy, yes, the Church masde mistakes and is making mistakes right now as I type this. Religious institutions are very slow to change. They have to be. It takes time to sort out which changes are for the good and which aren't. How mnay of you would respect the LDS Church if it simply changed with the times. like pop culture? You wouldnt respect it at all. So, the Church takes it slow. The leaders have an experience of the love of God just as I do, and they try to respond in a loving way. Thye want to guide the Church into safe waters. I appreciate this, and I am educated enough to know why it has to be slow. Wozadummy, yes, there are strange things in the LDS Church. One can focus on those things, and become very strange, angry, and bitter, or one can see them for the abberations that they are and put them into perspective.
I am a very social person and not interested in a solitary path, or to join some strange little sect that meets in living rooms and peers out at the world in fear and hate. Being a positive person I prefer to see the glass as half full. Trust me, its a much better way to go through life. I could stay very bitter because of my JW experience, but I choose not to.
Qcmbr, I will answer your PM very soon! Thank you for writing me!
Juni, yes, "whatever floars your boat" as you say. I like that.
JW Daughter, all religious teachings are kooky if looked at in the cold light of reason. I have a glowing, powerful Testimony based on my experience of God's Love in the LDS Church, the sense of Transcendence, not because the doctrine makes sense the way Aristotlean logic makes sense. Perhaps you could return with a new understanding? A new standard of judgement? I hope so. It really is the only Church for me. I love your comment: " have never met a nicer group of people and if they are all faking it, they do a remarkable job at it!! If I could get past my conscience (and didn't have to live with my hubby) I would probably be one now. Tithing and all." God loves you so very much, and God has people all over the world who love God right back! They show this love for each other and hang tight as a Body. Come back to us and just rest in God. Just rest in that Love. God doesn't care about the doctrines, God cares about the Love. You know that you experienced the Love of God in the LDS Church. I know it too.  None of us are perfect, though you will find a few that think so.
God's blessings to you all. Thank you for the wonderful welcome!
Lisa
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

4 years ago i did a comparison of LDS vs JW disgruntled member websites and i found 4 TIMES more per capita EX JW pages than Mormon pages
I do know that LDS helps their members prosper financially have schools charities and i may be wrong but they don't break up families with shunning like JW's.
I hear you really have to piss off the church to get ex-communicated?
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago


 Well said ElderBarry. I have many Mormon friends. I've been on this board for over four years and I can't count the number of times I have to laugh at some of the misconceptions people have about the Mormons. As a social group, they are outstanding.... I enjoy most of the activities within their church, especially the sports and beach parties. I also enjoy getting into deep religious discussions without them getting "nuts" like my JW friend.... they feel no threat...just "take it or leave it...whatever" attitude. Your post is "right on" with my experience with them. WELCOME to the board.
 
looking_glass
looking_glass 10 years ago

There are good people and bad people in all faiths.
However, as for the church catching up w/ the times and being respectful towards women, let me know when it catches up, till then I will worship in my own temple, one that does not discriminate against me because I don't have an extra appendage. Until then, ANY religion that treats women like second class citizens, is of no interest to me.
 

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Hi! Any other Latter Day Saints here?
by ElderBarry 10 years ago 35 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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MegaDude
MegaDude 10 years ago

Yes, Megadude I have read "Under the Banner Of Heaven." I've also read Gerald and Sandra Tanners anti-Mormon books.
I didn't consider it as an anti-Mormon book but rather a statement of history and its effect on Mormonism and its splinter groups. To each their own, though. Still, rarely have I found the history of a church so riveting and exciting to read. I had no idea how relentlessly the Mormons were persecuted here in the United States in the early inception of their faith.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 10 years ago

"When I was a Jehovah's Witness, I NEVER felt that the Governing Body cared anything about me as a person, or even the local elders. I was simply a loudspeaker for their doctrines and a money machine. My fellow Witnesses were suspicious, paranoid, snoopy, and out to find some reason to make trouble for each other. Yuck. Plus I hated the world and life when I was a JW. I couldn't wait for the system of things to end, for the great trib and battle of armageddon." ElderBarry
That is exactly the difference that I noticed. There was always some expectant hush when there was an announcement from the front that there was going to be a discipline such as reproof, DA or DF. It was a morbid fascination, followed by unseemly gossip. There was tattling and troublemaking all over. It is a very sad culture. That was not the case with the LDS church, and some of their doctrine I think seems much more Christlike than much of what I see in other churches-even if I don't think it revealed in the Bible. I am probably at a point where I could be more comfortable attending without believing every last bit of it than when I was a young girl and felt guilty about it.
THe gleeful expectation of armageddon at every news flash creeps me out. As an adult, 20 years out of the org. I still get anxious at every breaking story. When I was a kid Malawi was going on and I lived in fearful expectation of being sent to a concentration camp or something. Mormonism is a much kinder culture to raise kids in!
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 10 years ago

Hi Lisa, and welcome to the board.
I am an ex jw who has not found the need to join another religion. To tell you the truth, I don't believe there is a true religion out there. I am an agnostic nowadays, with leanings more towards atheism than belief in a higher power. I am very comfortable with my current belief, or rather lack of it, and doubt I'll ever change.
I am, however, very happy that you have found a faith that you can feel comfortable with after being a jw and finding out the truth about the lie.
 
ringo5
ringo5 10 years ago

Q-
Hi Praise - I did reply honest! Have a look in your inbox. The idea that we can become like our Father (and Mother) in heaven if we so choose (and if we don't we can still have an incredible fulfilling existence that will make us happy) is a beautiful concept. It makes the scriptures take on a whole new aim - rather than just a guide to happy living it becomes a training guide for Eternity.


That includes ruling over your own planets too, right?
Sounds like the biggest pyramid scheme ever!
 
ellderwho
ellderwho 10 years ago

Elderbarry, welcome to the forum,
This question is to you and Qcmbr, as the Mormon doctrine goes....when do you finally know when your saved?
EW
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 10 years ago

EB
Welcome to the board!
From your bio
There is no Church that does this as well, at least a Christian Church, as does the LDS Church.
Just one problem, Why would you call Mormonism Christian? It's not even close!
D Dog
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 10 years ago

Hi, Lisa,

I am LDS, now and forever. Best decision I ever made.
I was raised Protestant, but have JW family members whom I dearly love, including one sister. She and I have had many, many discussions regarding our life paths. She feels sadness for my choice (LDS) but does grudgingly praise the LDS Church for such things as our youth programs, Sunday School (she loved Sunday School when we were Protestant children), our Family Home Evening program, early-morning Seminary for the 9th through 12th graders, our strong stand on moral issues, and a dozen other things.
She knows her children might have turned out better if they had had some of those things in their lives, and will wistfully admit it, but will then add a statement like, "But they didn't have those things in Jesus' day so we don't need them now either." Over the years she has gradually lessened the number of times she bothers to defend the JW lifestyle after positively commenting on the LDS ways.
I am saddened by her choice to become, and to remain, a JW. Truthfully, I cannot find much of anything to praise, grudgingly or otherwise, about them. I don't feel it has been a blessing or of benefit to her or to her family. She does admit that herself, but continues to make excuses for her religion, turns a blind eye to their failings, and is simply holding on by her fingernails, hoping The End Of This System will come tomorrow, if not tonight.
I love how you expressed your sentiments regarding the LDS Church, and especially the Temple. Hubby and I have been Temple workers for more than a decade and absolutely love it. Being there is just the greatest.
Welcome to this site, Lisa! There are many good people here.

Qmbr (Did I get your name right?) -- Thank you for responding to that ridiculous list of supposed Mormon bad examples. It had to be the single most blatantly false list I've read on this site yet -- and there have been some doozies! Mostly I just laugh at them. Few are worth bothering to reply to.

DoubleEdge -- Nice to see you again! As always, your comments are balanced and enjoyable!

Susan
 
Reefton Jack
Reefton Jack 10 years ago

I am not an LDS - for that matter, not in any way religious, either.
I do, however, have friends that are LDS.
One thing that does impress me about the "Mormons" / Church of the Latter Day Saints is how family friendly they are - certainly in comparison to the WTS.
I resent the WTS for many reasons - but if I had to single out one thing more than the others, it would be how their whole theology / way of life prevented me from having a stabe life with my family.
Bad experiences during my 28 years with the JWs have soured me towards religion in any of its forms - and for all time. But I would never want to deny that right to anyone else. As far as I am concerned, too many people died in two world wars guaranteeing such things as freedom of worship for me to want to interfere!
 
wozadummy
wozadummy 10 years ago

Qcmbr
Well I'm sorry to see you chose the course you did in responding to questions that I asked Lisa, you should read my post again and if you can get past your ignorance you might see that I was pointing back to a time past.
This all happened before you were born and your attitude has been similar to my genuine questions (NOT LOADED LANGUAGE) that missionaries have shown to me recently - that of ignorance (look it up ,it means LACK OF KNOWLEGE).
These events and beliefs were from a long time ago and they had a problem too coming to grips with these facts. When I asked them to return after checking out some of the old beliefs they never came back.
So that is why I asked Lisa...you, Qcmbr really show your immaturity in YOUR language and lack of understanding anothers viewpoint ,as all these things actually did happen and I was a witness to all. When the Elders came to my mother at the hall to collect the tythe OWING they had a large accounts book with the congregations tythe records and gave her forcefully a manilla envelope to put money in explaining she would have to find it from her house keeping money my father gave her ...I was there with her and also was with her when she approached my father for the money when we got home! He was not happy and told her no and to keep the missionaries away from his home.
If you don't believe me so be it , you would just prove again what religious cultism can do to peoples minds just like the JW's.,what do they call it ...Cognitive Dissonance sounds pretty close I guess.
You have'nt done LDS any favours by responding to my genuine questions in the way you did ....but I will concede that I've seen a lot worse in the JW"S. You see I have many fond memories of my LDS time such as the sport ,the MIA etc .
Lisa
I can only assume you follow Qcmbr 's course in answering the questions .It's funny how some people will defend at all costs some things that actually DID happen before they were born and never question whether their organization was actually saying and doing these things. All I can say is I'm glad I was'nt an African American Mormon in the 50's and 60's
 
wozadummy
wozadummy 10 years ago

Oh and Susanhere your pathetic little put down would show your heart too I think. I was very dedicated to the LDS although only young, I was baptised at 8 and the church felt I was at an age of understanding did'nt they ? So all events were very clear to me as I was so wrapped up in LDS ,giving Sacraments, talks etc and only left when forced to by my father .
Steve
 
kid-A
kid-A 10 years ago

Qmbr (Did I get your name right?) -- Thank you for responding to that ridiculous list of supposed Mormon bad examples. It had to be the single most blatantly false list I've read on this site yet -- and there have been some doozies! Mostly I just laugh at them. Few are worth bothering to reply to.
Wow. The reactions of the "mormons" on this site sound so eerily like a classic JW reaction to the cognitive dissonance encountered when they are forced to deal with some of the ugly "truths" about their "religion" and its real origins...
Try to remember who you are dealing with on this forum: we are likely the most "cult-savvy" group of people on the planet who can smell sectarian "GROUP THINK"  from a mile away. Its the same shit, different pile. You aint' fooling anyone except yourselves.
For the record, I have LDS "members" in my family and they have been more snotty, judgemental and intolerant of "non-mormons" in the extended family than ANY of the active JWs in my family.
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

My neighbour was invited over to a friend's place for pizza. The friend was a Mormon. When my friend got there, he found pizza and a Mormon elder there to give him a lesson. He was mightily ticked off and quickly ended the friendship.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Wozadummy - I make no apologies - you used your post as an attack - if asking questions like - how cruel is that? How Christian is that? and make statements like 'reminds me of how controlling and demonic' after relating singular incidents or TV reports of which you seem to know little is what you think is respectful questions then you'll just have to forgive me when I treat your statements equally respectfully (come to think of it I actually made more of an attempt to answer them than you actually wanted - you just wanted your five minutes of shock and awe I believe and all the mormons to climb back into their funk holes) . There are plenty of people on this board who are more than willing to spill vitriol rather than having a balanced and fair judgement given any chance. Loaded language and blatant rudeness and comments of the calibre of 'don't forget - we are dealing with cultlike people' is about the level of many bitter posters when anything religious is discussed or defended here.
When you call out and slander what I love, be it my family, my church ,my good name or my God don't expect me to allow it to pass. On the same token - when I am guilty of the above fire away.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago

Oh and Susanhere your pathetic little put down would show your heart too I think. I was very dedicated to the LDS although only young, I was baptised at 8 and the church felt I was at an age of understanding did'nt they ? So all events were very clear to me as I was so wrapped up in LDS ,giving Sacraments, talks etc and only left when forced to by my father
 hmmmm, is that anyway to start a sentence (do I sense a little bitterness here)? Maybe you should take your anger up with your father and not out on other posters.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Wozadummy - one thing I must also correct regarding tithing - you did not clarify that keeping an account book for monies RECEIVED is required by most countries law and certainly the church law. The account book however, does not record money OWED as that concept does not exist in the LDS church - the nearest we ever get to that situation is when we send a missionary out and they don't happen to have the money to pay for the full mission and then family ,local congregation, Stake (like a Parish) and then general Church funds (in that order) will share the shortfall and this amount will be specific in total (when I was a missionary it cost £5000 for the full two years) but those who offer to help do what they can (in general the receiving missionary will never know who helped.) This system was also historically used in the UK when we built a new church but now the church general fund pays for new buildings - at least it does here.
To clarify the church position for your mother - had she paid tithing and then requested welfare from the church your family would have received far in excess of the tithing amount (I am making the assumption that the welfare system was sufficiently organised then - unfortunately I have no exact info) and you would have eaten well and I suspect you would have been more kindly disposed to the church. What the church tries not to do is emulate most welfare systems that give for nothing and reduce the dignity of the receiver to that of beggar, when aid is offered by the church it is requisite upon a willingness to work (to hijack the old analogy RE teaching a man to fish we believe in giving the man somewhere to fish as well) and active membership. During the Great Depression the church tried very hard to keep its members off the dole queues and working.
The LDS church also has a humanitarian aid programme for the world in which huge amounts of food , medical kits and long term supplies such as water hole boring equipment are waiting in warehouses for immediate shipment to areas of need - this is separate to the internal welfare system I described above.
I love good things done by anyone and for those who wish to let me boast here is a link to the facts of good things the LDS church has done.
http://www.providentliving.org/pfw/multimedia/files/pfw/pdf/75391_WelfareFactSheet2005_pdf.pdf
 
ElderBarry
ElderBarry 10 years ago

Wow! I didn't expect such a big response! Thank you!  Your folks ure know how to make a newbie feel welcome.
I'll try to answer everyone. First, though, to Deputy Dog and others who claim the LDS Church isn't Christian, I feel sad that nothing I say will make any impact on your mind or heart. So I won't even try. You should though make a list of all the verses where Jesus said "You shall know my disciplies by their strictly fundamentalist or evangelical doctrines." Ddog, I would also encourage you to stop usurping God's place as Judge. However, if you are unable to desist from playing God, at least judge by the criteria given by the Bible: Christ said people will know his disciples by their love for one another, and the Apostle John said that those who acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh are of God. John even went so far as to say that those who Love know God because God is love. You're one of those people that will be shocked and screaming at God in heavne because he let the riffraff in, people you judges unworthy because of their doc-ter-ines. Sad.
JW Daughter! Hi again! Thank you for the welcome to the board! I know there is a loving personal God because I experience that Love. I don't literally believe the doctrines. I see them as mythology. It's the experience of God but directly and through my fellow Saints that I have faith in. I have met a number of Mormons who believe the same way. The LDS Church is the only Church I've experienced God's Love so intensely in. It's the only Church where I've experienced the people being really close with eahc other and taking care of each other. Wouldn't it be funny and just like God if He chose the LDS Church to bless in this way precisely because their doctrines aren't the norm? Sort of like chooisng Samson because Samson was such a nut! Thats not a very good analogy, but I hope it gets the point across. Anyway, it would be great if you could find an inner way to embrace the Church and maintain your intellectual integrity. I've done it and my years as an LDS Christian have been the happiest of my life.
Elderwho, I think I covered that when I explained that all religions are mythological. You can read my very short profile. That pretty much explains things.

Hi Reefton Jack. I'm sorry you had such a long ordeal with the JWs. Mine was short by comparison. Why not give those crazy Mormons a try for a couple of Sundays and some social outings? You just might like it and stick around for the friendship.
Wozadummy, I really won't engage in doctrinal wrangling. How would you like to argue about whether Hercules wore a toga and ate baklava or if he ran around naked and ate smoked oysters? No? Me neither. I'm sorry you feel you were forced out of the LDS Church. Maybe you can return and let your brethren love you with agape? I hope so.
Kid-A, I hope I'm totally wrong, but you seem very upset and bitter. It will harm you. Also, I'm no cultist. I'm an intelligent, educated, 21st century woman. As I made clear and plain, what I actually believe in is the experience of God's love and the experience of transcendence. I experience those as an LDS Christian. I never did in any other church anywhere near to this degree and with this power. Not even in the pentecostal church. I'm sorry you have had negative experiences with the LDS folks in your family. You might try fellowshipping with your local Ward and see if the negativity holds true there as well. I'm betting it doesn't.
Hi jgnat. Thats sad. I can add some negative and crazy experiences I've had too, but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the positive experiences.
Susan Here! Yes! Isn't it so wonderful? To have gone through the horrible ordeal of the WTS mess and then be rewarded by such divine love?! I still cry sometimes and get on my knees and thank God with my whole being for the goodness and love he's shown me! It was quite something to read of your JW sisters praise of the LDS Church, and then read that she clings to the darkness of the WT religion anyway! I love Temple too. Thank you for the welcome.
Fullofdoubtnow: I do have need of the Church. It's been God's way of healing me, healing me inside of all the rotten stuff that happened as a JW. I couldnt and wouldnt walk a solitary path. You're a person of great determinationa and strength to be able to do so.
Looking_glass, that prolly won't happen soon. Yet, the women in my Ward have talked about this many times. I don't know of any women in my Ward who would want a position of leadership such as bishop or stake president even if it were open to them. Especially the mothers. We all feel that we have enough responsibility and work as it is, and we're grateful there are men willing to shoulder the burden. Instead of just studying about the Mormons from a safe distance, how about doing the unsafe thing and getting to know us as people? Your local Ward would love to see you, and you'd know then that the authority is not exercised in the way it is in Watchtower religion.
Hi Danny Hazard! Thank you for letting me know! There are negative experiences to be had as a Mormon, but far more positive experiences. Far more.
Last but NOT LEAST! Hi Double Edge! Thank you for letting me know that your experiences with the Church are so similar to my own.  Thank you for the welcome too. Perhaps like me you'll be hooked and decide that the LDS Church is the "path" for you. I know the Heavenly Father will continue to bless you.
Thanks again everyone.
Lisa
 

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Topic Summary
hi my name is lisa.
i'm not an elder of course and never have been.
i was a jw for just a few years and then relocated and left it behind.



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jw family loves to ask df'd ones for money!
by Ghiagirl 10 hours ago 30 Replies latest 23 minutes ago   jw experiences
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Ghiagirl
Ghiagirl 10 hours ago
Well it finally happened! We have been waiting about a year for this, my dfd husbands family asked us for money. Even though his own father hasn't met our 8 month old son. And most of his brothers and sisters haven't as well. Makes me sick. So you saved no money because the new world is coming? Just rely on your kids to pay your bills each month! Don't get me wrong I would always help my family no matter what! But the nerve they have, with no shame too! Thinking we are in the wrong as always. I'm about to blow my brains out with the drama I get left and right. I can't believe I once thought it was the truth! It tears families apart. Yet they blame us, the ones going through constant heartache for the empty space in our lives. I thought it was getting easier. But it's still hard. If I can save anyone from making the mistake of getting baptized! Please. Don't do it. I'm not one to say all jws are bad. But what the organization turns people into is what makes me sick, so brain washed. So ignorant, so blind. Sorry this is a rant I am just so angry and so sad. I get told from my family my whole life I am a selfish person. Because I wanted to live my life my way? My sister told me she doesn't like the person I have become and we are not close because we have different views and opinions and I'm a selfish person. But I know I'm not....at least I don't think so. I feel psychically ill anytime I try to reason with these people. Family is family. It's that simple. With no religion there would be so many fewer issues! I'm sorry but I hate religion I hate it. I don't know what I believe. Just be a good person, honest respectful nonjudgmental accepting. I'm a good mother, good wife and good friend. I am happier with who I am today then who I was when I was stuck in that god damn cult.
 +13 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 10 hours ago
Tell your husband not to give them any money. They treat you like your dead until they need something. Say that to them. Ask them "why is God blessing us with money and you are poor? rub it in their faces. Tell them to go ask their new family the ones in the hall for money.
 +9 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 10 hours ago

Wow!
Sorry to hear the stresses you are going through Ghiagirl!
The points you make are very true.
You know, if you end up helping them financially they could very well turn around and say:
"Jehovah took care of our needs by prompting our DFd family to give us money...Thank Jehovah!"
 +5 / -0
jhine
jhine 10 hours ago
I don't know what to say except l am sorry that you are going through this and rant away girl !
 Jan
 +4 / -0
Ghiagirl
Ghiagirl 9 hours ago
Yes we may end up helping. It's impossible to reason with these people. The fact they think there is nothing wrong with them asking for money is mind boggling. If we do it is a one time deal. But it kills us to even think about doing it.
 +4 / -0
sir82
sir82 9 hours ago
Tell them that you'd love to help, but you are concerned about them losing Jehovah's favor by having dealings with "unrepentant ones" such as yourselves, and in the best interests of preserving their relationship with Jehovah, you respectfully decline.

 +6 / -0
Daniel1555
Daniel1555 9 hours ago

If you help them you heap firy coals on them, to use bible language.
I would help them if their request is reasonable and be especially kind.
Tell them kindly that you are there for them and that they miss a great deal when they have no contact with you or their grandchild.
 +3 / -0
John Free
John Free 9 hours ago

Its shocking how the cult conditions its members to use the same mind control it espouses. Using emotional blackmail such as- 'I don't like the type of person you're becoming'- is the type of shockingly rude statement no normal person would utter. But mind control runs through the DNA of this cult. I'm glad you've found the strength not to believe this debased attempt at psychological coercion!
 +1 / -0
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 8 hours ago
Tell them to piss off! They won't appreciate it. It won't wake them up to the cult. They will only use you and then place you back in the trash bin they dug through for loose change. Sorry, I have no pity for them. Of course you could be the better person and help them but know that they WILL ONLY COME BACK FOR MORE. Don't think you can buy your family's loyalty or their genuine concern with money. If an 8 month old grandchild can't awaken their "Natural affection" money wont.

 +5 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  6 hours ago

Ghiagirl,
The sad thing is this behavior actually happens in families outside of the cult as well. No one in my family was in the cult and there were only three of us my mother and a sister. I was considered a part of the family ONLY when I was writing someone checks otherwise all Hell was the name of the game. The most abusive phone calls, they even confronted my children offering to take them in because we know your mother is not good. Of course my kids came straight to me and reported this crazy behavior. It took till I was 60 to cut all ties with these people. My kids cut ties with them long before I did.
 +2 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 5 hours ago

They have no shame.
Sorry you are getting treated like this.
I wouldn't give them a dime. If they treat you like this they don't deserve your respect. Like someone just said, let their JW family help them out.
 
hoser
hoser 5 hours ago

Don't his parents have jobs?
It is usually the children asking for money not the parents.
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 5 hours ago

If you hand over your hard earned cash to these entitled narcissists they will give Jehovah the credit for it and go back to shunning you and if you don't they will say you've become very "worldly" and go on shunning you.
 +4 / -0
zeb
zeb 5 hours ago

All good advice. Time for tough love. I suggest tell them "What, cant the elders help you out". or "Actually we are a bit short with our baby now"..."The one you haven't made any effort to see yet".
 +2 / -0
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 5 hours ago

By allowing yourself to be manipulated into giving in and rewarding poor behaviours you are enabling them.
 +3 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 4 hours ago

How about "Sure we'll help you. Lets go do a grocery together. You need cloths? Lets go shop together."
If they accept, by spending time with you, they will realize that you are not, in fact, the monster described by WT literature. If they do not accept saying that they can't do things with you as you are disfellowshiped, then, say:
"Here I am, with my heart on my hands, willing to help you, and now, not only are you refusing my help, but you are breaking my heart. How am I supposed to feel when you ask me to make sacrifices for you when I am not even worthy of your presence?".

If they say: You can come to our house, but we can't spend time in public. Answer: "If the opinion of other's count for that much, will they feed you? Then, what right do they have to judge you?"
Do not simply give them money without requiring their time and presence, otherwise, all the comments above are valid. They could very well say: "That was the least this sinner could do after everything she has done to us".
 +2 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 4 hours ago
Sorry about all that stress. That's is really ugly and shallow of them. Tell them you heard prayer works, try that. I wouldn't give them a dime.
 +2 / -0
Willie647
Willie647 4 hours ago
If you help them with money,they won't thank you, they just will say Jehovah got them money. It all plays into the hands of the cult. Be strong and know the pain fades over time. It's been over 30 years for me and the pain is never really gone but it does fade. Stay strong.
 +1 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 4 hours ago
I agree with every one else here, how dare they. You have a son that they haven't even seen, shame on them. Tell them to go f...k themselves, change your number & shun them. The Bastards.
 +3 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 4 hours ago

You are opening yourself up for more hurt if you give them $$$. The audacity! I would tell them to go ask for a loan from their "spiritual family", because after all, "Jehovah provides." I'm sure their loving Elders will gladly help them out!! Really, tell them to "go forth, be warm, and well fed."
My philosophy in life: I reciprocate what I receive.
Those shunning clowns wouldn't get one single nickel out of me. They'll take your money with no so much as a "thank you", then claim to their friends that it was Jehovah that provided for them. Then, they'll conveniently forget to pay you back, then shun you when you ask for it repaid.
I swear, if you loan them that money, you'll really get a taste of their "Christian Love". Don't do it! Like Nancy Reagan used to say, "Just say NO."

 +2 / -0

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jw family loves to ask df'd ones for money!
by Ghiagirl 10 hours ago 30 Replies latest 25 minutes ago   jw experiences
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TTWSYF
TTWSYF 3 hours ago

Yes, Yes, Yes! My family must endure the same effing behavior. One sibling became a baptized JW. Since that has happened he has had great fiscal decline and lose. Had homes, took vacations, nice things and then let everything go waiting for Jehovah to end this evil system of things.
My folks have had to bail him and his family out continuously. He cannot connect the dots between his lack of blessings and his clouded cult based decisions regarding his future.
But, when you're family, it's hard to give tough love. We all want our loved ones [even if they're delusional], to have a soft landing as opposed to a crash landing.
My thoughts and prayers are with you Ghiagirl
 +2 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis 3 hours ago

Tell them your money could be "demonized" and cause them to become materialistic. And if the other JWs in the congregation find out, your relatives could be shunned themselves.
Atlantis!
 
nmthinker
nmthinker 3 hours ago

When I was mentally in I would still give money to my DF'ed close family member in need.
I would sit down with them and determine whether they are really in need or do they just want a bailout of their poor decisions. You could ask them "If I was in need would you help me?" Try to reach their heart.
Refusing to help them because of the way they treat your husband will only enhance their indoctrinated world-view. If you are vindictive at all it will only strengthen their confidence that they are "doing the right thing for Jehovah"
Help them out but use this opportunity to open a dialogue, in love. Love hopes all things and love never fails
 +0 / -1
out4good4
out4good4 2 hours ago

Give them copies of the latest magazines.....
Then paraphrase James 2:16....
"Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled;"

 +1 / -0
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 2 hours ago
Sorry to hear this but this is a common occurrence in the JW world. I know of a poor JW family who tried the same thing to their "worldly" part of the family. Rarely had contact with them because we all know worldly people including your own family are bad association. Well then they needed some money and suddenly the worldly family were their bank. In the end the evil worldly family gave them some money for their situation and told them to keep it but to please unite the family instead of destroy it.

 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 hours ago
I'd never take the stance of sunning a JW family member and sink to their level on using it as a punishment. But when it comes to friends, family, or anyone who is WILLFULLY cutting me off, I will not chase them, I will not help them. It is a form of enabling. They are toxic, toxic relationships should be kept at a proper distance for your own mental & in this case financial health. I'd tell them kindly sorry, no can do. Why would you help someone who is essentially abusing you?
 +2 / -0
WTWizard
WTWizard 2 hours ago

Once you are nice to the jokehovians once, they will expect you to be nice to them all the time. I would not make the mistake of giving them any money, especially if you are disfellowshipped and they are using you for money. You give it to them personally, they are probably going to throw it into the Worldwide Damnation Fund.
As for me, they are not getting anything. No matter what. I know that those "grasshoppers" that saved nothing will be up the creek without a paddle when the dollar becomes toilet paper or we get bank bail-ins here, but too bad. Who was it that forced them to throw away all their money? I didn't hound or force them to place all their money into the Worldwide Damnation Fund instead of saving it or buying things that will be useful (tools, silver and gold, non-perishable food, high quality food and flashlight/battery systems, and so on). So they will be getting nothing from me. No toilet paper based currency now, and no silver or gold when the dollar becomes toilet paper or bail-ins happen.

 +1 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 2 hours ago
My brothers n sisters always treated me different....ive been to prison, df'd, did my wrongs....but paid my dues. And after them coming to me constantly for money to help them complete rent.....i bought my two brothers n sister a mobile home. All they pay now is a small space fee. And yet....if i ever go to a meeting with them"which is quite unlikely☺"....they wont talk to me. But hey.....my conscience is clear.
 +1 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal an hour ago

I don't know what I would do if I were in this situation since I have no family in the JW religion....But, I know what it is like for family to be asking for money, but they are not shunning me!
However, if I had JW family shunning me and asking for money:....if they were crying and REALLY desperate I suppose I would give them money, groceries, etc. but I would tell them they are hypocrites for asking me. I would also say that they should ask their "spiritual" friends for money. (But, I know full well the bastards wouldn't give them sh#t).
I have a particular problem with Witness hypocrisy. I was criticized for working full-time and considered "not spiritual" by pioneers and other freeloaders who didn't want to be part of the workforce.
 Therefore, I wouldn't give the religion OR these people a dime!!!...Let them scrounge...Let them feel the full complement of the punishment of seeing life in the REAL world!..Now, it's my turn to run away from THEM.
However, blood is another story. But, it does depend on the circumstances!
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein an hour ago

Ghiagirl I would make the point that no financial help gets forwarded to people who shun over religious beliefs,
if that's the position they take then shouldn't expect anything and keep on shunning.



Suggest asking for money from the rich WTS heads who have millions.

 +1 / -1
TheListener
TheListener 25 minutes ago

I'm sorry to hear about all the drama you have to deal with. You would think that being disfellowshipped and completely ignored by your family you would at least be sheltered from the drama. But, it's not so.
I think it's kind of you and your husband to consider loaning them money, especially after the way they've treated you and your son. There must be a lot of pressure that not giving them the money they need will make them view you even worse than they do already. That sucks. My fear would be that giving them the money won't change how they feel about you even one iota and that once you do it this time you have set the precedent and you will be doing it again, even if you right now you say it's a one time thing.
Best of luck.
 

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Topic Summary
well it finally happened!
we have been waiting about a year for this, my dfd husbands family asked us for money.
even though his own father hasn't met our 8 month old son.



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What is the motivation behind the JW org?
by Half banana 5 hours ago 12 Replies latest 26 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
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Half banana
Half banana 5 hours ago

The GB has recently said that the brothers are generously contributing lots of money (at gunpoint it seems!) so why with a billion Dollar annual income do they demand more cash?
They have staunched the outward flow of money on paid preachers, zone overseers and Bethel expenses and stalled the promised worldwide luxury buildings projects.
As an ORGANIZED RELIGION i.e. hierarchical, (Rutherford rotates in his grave) they now own all the JW buildings world-wide as well, to the tune of probably another billion or two, so why the blatant Watchtower money grabbing?
They have so kindly released the brothers from all their mortgages... how very Christian!
The consequence of this is that now all congregations instead of having the secure knowledge of paying off a debt, as in a mortgage, are now being made to pay a tribute in perpetuity the cost of a KH mortgage payment for a building which they probably made at their private expense and effort and yet will never legally own.
This a monumental scam worthy of the mind of Mr Ponzi
Are they just greedy? Perhaps more to the point; who is the "they"?
Is any other party interested in the financial success of the WTBTS (or whatever business names it may be registered in)? Is it their bankers... or are there others investing in this religious corporation?
 +5 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 4 hours ago

Personally, I think the WTBTS is owned. It's a great scam for laundering tax free $$$.
DD
 +3 / -0
Ignoranceisbliss
Ignoranceisbliss 3 hours ago
It would be great to know the answer to this. I lean towards the idea that there is not anyone else behind it all.
 +2 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 3 hours ago
The cover-ups, the ARC, the hearing in UK, hear about a hearing in germany soon - there's so much. Even when the people don't leave, you know the reasons, they vote with the money. Also there lawsuits following the ARC, so they need money the can spend.
 
joe134cd
joe134cd 2 hours ago

The big question is how much money is going out. I would imagine an operation like that even with free labour would require hugh amounts of money. With all the cut backs / lay offs they must be in desperate times as this goes completely against everything they have taught e.g spiritual truth over flowing in the time of the end. Around the time I left I mentioned this to an elder / accounts- literature servant. His reply was there was no way they were covering the cost of the literature.
Even a billion dollars in the greater scheme of things isn't that much. For instance the government in this country has decided to build a luxury events center and I think the cost of that is around $500 million, and that just for an events centre. No where near the scale of Wt.
 
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 2 hours ago

That's a good question. When you are on the inside, it seems like they are for Jehovah. Their actions tell otherwise.
I'd love to see their 501c3 status removed. They do zero charity work. During Hurricane Katrina in 2004, the society sent their equipment to build their money making machines also known as Kingdom Halls. The leftover time they had they helped some brothers and sisters in need. Seems nice, right? Well before they began to do any reconstruction work, they told them to apply for their homeowners insurance first and then give the check to them. They loved to make photo ops for the local newspapers when they saw fit. Other brothers and sister were assisted by the local congregation money only. Which means all that donating didn't do anything.

If someone like Cedars, Paul or even Simon from this site would organize a rally and movement to that end, my husband and I would donate a hefty sum for that cause to get the word out.

 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

do they demand more cash?
The WTS is once again being deceptive concerning its wealth.
The body of JWS do not know about the many branch sell offs or that the WTS is going to gain another billion this year from the sale of its Brooklyn properties.

They are playing a slight of hand gimmick to make the impression that the WTS is cash poor, such as removing special pioneers , asking children to give up their candy money etc.
All of this is being done with deception to pry more money out of people's hands. $$$$$

You believe don't you , show your faith to Jehovah.

 +1 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 2 hours ago

Motivation: A religion with a lot of real estate and rakes in a lot of dough. What better than that?!🙄
DY
 
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 2 hours ago

Nobody said it better than L Ron Hubbard but I'm sure CT Russell said it first.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion"



 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein an hour ago

Well religion is a game of power and wealth after all, the WTS has shown this to be " The Truth "

 
No Longer a JW Brother
No Longer a JW Brother an hour ago

Control.
Control is a powerful feeling. The GB feel so powerful you can see the arrogance on their faces when they speak.

 
LisaRose
LisaRose an hour ago

It's like any organization, once it's been established the goal is to survive, to maintain itself. Of course any organization is a group of individuals, and they are what keeps the organization going. Individuals may start out as true believers, but I think once you become part of an organization hierarchy in a corrupt religion like the Watchtower two things come into play. 1) people have a hard time facing the fact that they made a bad choice and 2) People become invested in maintaining their position.
It's a normal behavior for people to continue to justify bad choices rather than admit they made a mistake. Study after study shows that rather than abandon a course of action when it doesn't work out, people are likely to invest even more time energy or money in is a course of action. The ego is fragile, people simply cannot admit they were wrong. People like Barbara Anderson, who courageously spoke out when she saw things were not right are very rare.
Then, when people become part of the hierarchy in a corrupt religion like the Watchtower they become invested in maintaining their position, they become corrupted themselves. I think that is why people remain, even when they find out disturbing information. You may fool yourself that you are still a believer, but at some point you have sold out and you know it. It doesn't matter than its an unpaid position, you are getting room and board at the least, security, some status and to leave would be difficult, the higher you go the more difficult it is. Can you imsgine someone on the GB leaving and becoming a regular person again? What are they going to do, be a Wal-Mart Greeter? If they had an ounce of integrity they wouldn't be where they are, it's never going to happen.
We had a hospital services district (a government organization) in a nearby town that effectively served no function, there were no hospitals in the town, nor had there been for years. None of the people serving had any motivation to petition to dissolve the organization because they were getting a paycheck for virtually no work. It became a self licking ice cream cone.
That is why you are seeing desperation on the part of the governing body. They see the problems, but at this point it's impossible to be honest and admit the organization was ever wrong, or they were wrong for staying, and they will never change course in any substantial way. They simply double down on the stupidity and hope things get better, they have no choice. And the organization may start to shrink, but there will always be believers, no matter how big the problems get, because they cannot admit they were wrong either.
 +1 / -0
freddo
freddo 26 minutes ago

Lisa Rose - that sounds exactly right to me. Extremely well explained.
 

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