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"Knocking" Director, Joel Engardio, wonders why JWs bother to adhere to a no-blood theology
by AndersonsInfo 6 years ago 5 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower medical
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 6 years ago

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/02/witnesses_blood_and_spiritual_complications.html
Witnesses, blood and spiritual complications
By Joel P. Engardio
writer, documentary filmmaker
Blood transfusions and Jehovah's Witnesses make dramatic stories. Life and death determined by religious faith was on trial last year in Canada where the Supreme Court ruled that blood can be forced on children of Jehovah's Witnesses while some "mature minors" can decide their own medical fate. Russia's high court was much less accommodating. It said the belief against blood is a danger to society that warrants a ban of the religion. In the United States, a young Jehovah's Witness mother who refused a potentially life-saving lung transplant because it would likely require a blood transfusion was front page news in the Washington Post this week.
The twist in Maribel Perez's story, featured in Wednesday's editions of The Washington Post, is that she changed her mind. She is now willing to have the operation with blood because she feared leaving her two elementary school-age children motherless. Her Jehovah's Witness congregation has reportedly shunned her.
The drama in these stories is inherent because the religious objection to blood only amplifies stakes that are high to begin with -- people sick enough to need organ transplants can still die even with the blood transfusion. So Jehovah's Witnesses are left with what appear to be impossible choices: Say no to blood and risk orphaning your children, consent to a procedure that might not work and leave family behind anyway, have a successful operation with blood but face the shame of disobeying your God and alienation from family and friends still in the faith.
Yet the issue of Jehovah's Witnesses and blood is not always that clear-cut. I made the PBS documentary
Every medical center Seth contacted in his home state of Texas turned him down, but the University of Southern California agreed to take his case (it was once said liver transplants could never be done without blood and now they are). USC has a transfusion-free surgery program that specializes in "bloodless" procedures and has been working with Jehovah's Witness patients for years to develop better medical technology in every area from knee replacements to heart surgery and organ transplants. The hospital even applies the "bloodless" techniques to the general population for cleaner, safer operations that reduce infection risk and lower cost, saving blood transfusions only for when they are absolutely necessary. That's the kind of treatment I would personally want, as someone who isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Nearly 200 hospitals in the United States have some sort of "bloodless" program, and the concept is catching on. Even the U.S. military is interested. The Department of Defense is paying Englewood Hospital and Medical Center in New Jersey nearly $5 million to train military doctors how to perform "bloodless" surgery.
Note "bloodless" is in quotes. Many of the technologies and medicines used to reduce or replace blood contain traces of blood in the manufacturing process. An organ transplant will always have residual blood.
My mother is one of Jehovah's Witnesses and the advance medical directive she and all Jehovah's Witnesses are asked to fill out contains a menu of choices. They can choose or decline a number of treatment options that have some sort of blood fraction but fall short of an all-out whole blood transfusion. Many Jehovah's Witnesses, like my mom, pick options tailored to their personal conscience. Some are absolutists who won't take anything linked to blood. And not all Jehovah's Witnesses will accept an organ transplant, which was not allowed until 1980. But Jehovah's Witnesses who do take transplants say their intention is to get the organ, not the residual blood that comes with it.
A doctor I interviewed for KNOCKING treats many Jehovah's Witnesses but said he sees a "logical disconnect" with the religion's stated beliefs and their nuanced approach to blood: whether it was a fraction of blood or a whole bag of transfused blood, it was still blood. I agree. However, where my mom is concerned, I like the idea that she doesn't have to follow a one-size-fits-all blood policy dictated by her religion. Still, if some nuance is allowed, I wonder why the religion bothers to adhere to a no-blood theology in the first place -- or at least make the leap that the Biblical ban on eating blood includes modern transfusions?
I suspect legal considerations weigh heavily on Jehovah's Witnesses as an organized religion. While it may have been easy to "disfellowship" or excommunicate a member for taking blood years ago, the religion today would be open to devastating lawsuits if its members were forced to make certain medical decisions. High-ranking Jehovah's Witnesses I interviewed for KNOCKING said no one is excommunicated now for taking blood, but a member who willfully chooses blood has voluntarily chosen to leave the faith. Which raises another nuance in the policy: Witness officials I interviewed said a member who takes a blood transfusion while in an "emotional state and under pressure" deserves "pastoral care and compassion." They can remain a Witness as long as they don't advocate that blood transfusions are good, that they would do it again and others should do it, too.
I can't help but think about the young Jehovah's Witness mother featured on the front page of the Washington Post. Whether through a hospital pioneering new technology or the increasingly nuanced approach Jehovah's Witnesses take to blood, perhaps there is a way she can get her lung transplant while keeping her faith after all.
Joel P. Engardio directed the award-winning PBS documentary KNOCKING about Jehovah's Witnesses. His essays have been broadcast on NPR and appeared in USA Today.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/02/witnesses_blood_and_spiritual_complications.html
KNOCKING, which featured a 23-year-old Jehovah's Witness who needed a liver transplant. Seth Thomas wanted to abide by his religious conviction that blood is sacred - a life force that Jesus shed to absolve humankind's sin - and was not to be eaten, as the Bible commanded (extended to transfusions today). So Seth refused any surgery that would require blood. But Seth still wanted to live. He thought of the girlfriend he wanted to marry and a full life ahead. Seth didn't rely on prayer alone; he also put hope in medical technology, searching for hospitals willing to give him a liver transplant without transfusing blood. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/02/witnesses_blood_and_spiritual_complications.html
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

JW's are lucky that they can find any doctors to operate on them, seeing as how they are just difficult patients. 99.9% of the doctor's patients are not JW's so they don't need their problems or business. Interesting expose' of the weasel words that the WT org uses, they don't disfellowship, but if you accept blood you have just volunteered to disassociate yourself, so we will shun you anyway. Nice people to avoid.
 
MrMonroe
MrMonroe 6 years ago

This double talk was also discussed by Oregon bioethicist Osamu Muramoto in his article, "Bioethics of the refusal of blood by Jehovah's Witnesses, part 3" in the Journal of Medical Ethics, 1999 (Google it if you want to read all his fascinating and forthright papers on the subject). He noted that a public agreement was made in March 1998 between the WTS and the Bulgarian government at the European Commission of Human Rights. In the agreement, the WTS declared that its members "have free choice" to receive blood transfusions "without any control or sanction on the part of the association".
Futher on in his paper, Muramoto wrote:

A WTS official in (a subsequent) BBC interview argued that a JW who accepts blood would never be automatically disfellowshipped. If he expresses remorse and repentance before a judicial committee, he will not be punished with the most severe religious sanction. He also argued that unrepentant JWs who received blood are disfellowshipped not because of the fact that they received blood, but because they abandoned the doctrine of the religious organisation.
Muramoto points out the hypocrisy in the statement: the end result for any JW who exercises his "free choice" and chooses to accept blood is expulsion and shunning. A JW on the talk page of the Wikipedia article on Jehovah's Witnesses has similarly argued that Witnesses are free to choose on the issue of transfusions. This is clearly the new party line for the public, but it's a hollow claim indeed when anyone who makes a choice contrary to WTS teaching is booted out.
 
Mary
Mary 6 years ago

High-ranking Jehovah's Witnesses I interviewed for KNOCKING said no one is excommunicated now for taking blood, but a member who willfully chooses blood has voluntarily chosen to leave the faith.
This bullshit is nothing but a play with semantics in a desperate attempt for the WTS to downplay their disgusting practice of excommunicating people who's 'gross sin' is trying to either save the life of their spouse or child, or themselves. When someone "voluntarily leaves" the Organization, they make the choice THEMSELVES. What happens if someone accepts a blood transfusion and does not want to "voluntarily leave"? You are given no choice by the powers that be and you are forced out with the end result being the same as when they disfellowship someone.
It's like working at a company, finding out they're doing something illegal and refusing to participate in it. They tell you if you don't do what they say, then you have "voluntarily quit" your job in order for them to avoid a lawsuit, but in reality, they've fired you.
He also argued that unrepentant JWs who received blood are disfellowshipped not because of the fact that they received blood, but because they abandoned the doctrine of the religious organisation.
Note how you're not disfellowshipped for 'going against the bible' or even 'going against Jehovah', but rather for going against "the doctrine of the religious organization." Does that make it official that the WTB&TS has officially usurped Jehovah as Supreme Ruler? How do they justify that when their (pathetic) doctrines are changed down the road? I mentioned this to my sister the other night, as she is struggling with 'guilt' now, for allowing my b-i-l to have blood transfusions. I said to her "the very fact that they have to change these doctrines means that they weren't right in the first place!"
 
rebel8
rebel8 6 years ago

Too little, too late.
Joel has done a lot of damage.
 
designs
designs 6 years ago

If you are going to be Religious or run a Religion you had better figure out the equation of Venial vs Mortal sins.
 

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"Knocking" documentary is CNN approved.
by DevonMcBride 9 years ago 35 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 9 years ago

I found the below quote on this website. http://www.newday.com/films/Knocking.html and was surprised to read this review from a well known anchor at CNN


"Riveting and illuminating. KNOCKING takes us inside the world of Jehovah's Witnesses in a way that is utterly surprising and moving."
–Anderson Cooper, CNN
If anyone wants to send a response to Anderson Cooper and let him known the real truth about the Witnesses here is the link to do so. I would hope that CNN will consider doing a story on the pedophile ruling in California. Last year I sent info about the JW blood policy to this link and the producers were very interested, until Hurricane Katrina moved in. Maybe if we all contact them with the truth about "the truth" they will consider again.

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?10
 
carla
carla 9 years ago

Will do & bttt
 
candidlynuts
candidlynuts 9 years ago

bttt
 
HadEnuf
HadEnuf 9 years ago

Just sent off my comments about the documentary to Mr. Cooper. I hope it is read along with others here who send a message about this "white-washed" view of the Watchtower Society.
mumsy
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 9 years ago

This is our (high ranked for knocking keywords) EXJW protest page done by our good man Alan Feuerbacher Jehovah's Witnesses PBS Film KNOCKING Omits the Facts
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 9 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/107698/6.ashxup at JWD this is our longstanding knocking thread *DVD READY IN SEPTEMBER Please check www.knocking.org to order your DVD starting in September.
This
will include the longer film festival version, plus 3 hours of extra
video
material and a 48-page printed study guide . More details to come.
 
DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 9 years ago

The comment space on the feedback form doesn't allow many characters. If you would like to send your letters via snail mail, the mailing address is
CNN
1 Time Warner Center
New York, NY 10019
ATTN: Anderson Cooper 360 Production
I'm not sure what floor they are located on. I think the 7th or 8th. The switchboard phone number is 212-484-8000.
The executive Producer for that TV show is David Doss. I don't think he has anything to do with Anderson Coopers comments, but if we contact him, maybe he will be interested to do a story about the WT.
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 9 years ago

Does anyone know when "Knocking" will be shown on PBS ?
 
ZazuWitts
ZazuWitts 9 years ago

Last I heard - "Knocking" is to be aired May 22, 2007.
 
carla
carla 9 years ago

Have you taken the few seconds it takes to email?
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 9 years ago

Thank you Zazu . . .
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 9 years ago

carla . . . you talkin' to me?
Tiger
 
carla
carla 9 years ago

Sure Tiger, why not? Nobody else has answered! Anyway, I sent mine off. (it was for everybody)
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 9 years ago

Yeah, me too. I'd say more but my computer is screwed up and will not allow me lengthy discussion. Anyone out there know how to fix this problem ?
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 9 years ago

Never mind . . .just realized I'd be hijacking. Later.
 
sf
sf 9 years ago

Alan,
Would your review be accepted here? Please try!:
http://www.newday.com/reviews.lasso?filmid=FSiJ8zA78
sKally
 
XJW4EVR
XJW4EVR 9 years ago

I just have to wonder...
would Fox News run this "documentary?"


 
Odrade
Odrade 9 years ago

Devil's advocate... How many of the people protesting "Knocking" have actually seen the film? Yes, we "know" what's in it, having heard reviews and read the descriptions. I'm just wondering if these protests without watching might be just a little bit like the JWs who say "I don't need to read that book to know everything in it is wrong/bad." ? And no, I haven't seen the film, though I intend to.
 
XJW4EVR
XJW4EVR 9 years ago

Good point, Odrade. I haven't seen it, and I probably won't see it. I won't be protesting it either.
I kind of look at this sort of thing in the same manner as all documentaries, propoganda disguised as fact.
 
carla
carla 9 years ago

I haven't seen it and won't. I have seen the reviews of those who have. It is jw propaganda plain and simple. I don't need to stand in a gas chamber to know it's a bad place to be. Maybe I should be more tolerant and give the folks at NAMBLA a chance too? Naw, instead I will use my God given brain and make a judgement call about an evil org all on my very own. To say we shouldn't draw a conclusion until we have seen it ourselves is naive at best if you have spent even one day here reading the human wreckage left in the wake of the wt.
 

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"Knocking" documentary is CNN approved.
by DevonMcBride 9 years ago 35 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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sf
sf 9 years ago

, instead I will use my God given brain and make a judgement call about an evil org all on my very own. To say we shouldn't draw a conclusion until we have seen it ourselves is naive at best if you have spent even one day here reading the human wreckage left in the wake of the wt.
Well said carla. I fully concur.
sKally
 
DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 9 years ago

I haven't seen the documentary and probably won't. Just the fact that the Watchtower was heavily involved in the making of it, says bundles.
 
Will Power
Will Power 9 years ago

, instead I will use my God given brain and make a judgement call about the evil "internet" all on my very own. To say we shouldn't draw a conclusion until we have seen it ourselves is naive at best if you have spent even one day here reading the human wreckage left in the wake of "apostates". I don't know how many times I've heard this from a JW esp my own husband and how frustrated it makes me feel. I'd love to sit thru a WT study at a Kingdom hall with Blondie's comments and be allowed to comment. Just as I'd love to sit thru a "knocking" documentary with a room full of JWs armed with old WT and common sense. Either way - cult is cult, and there is no light in darkness. wp p.s. If I could format, I would've crossed out the substituted words, not delete them.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 9 years ago

KNOCKING Update
Oct. 25, 2006www.knocking.org
1. New York City premiere
2. DVD sales continue
3. More viewer comments
SEE KNOCKING IN NEW YORK CITY
The Queens International Film Festival has named KNOCKING an official
selection in its documentary competition. This will be KNOCKING's New
York
City premiere, in the famous borough of Queens. Previously, KNOCKING
has
played near New York City at film festivals on New York's Long Island
and in
Trenton, New Jersey.
Sunday Nov. 19
5:30pm
Kaufman Zukor Studio
3412 36th Street
Astoria, NY (Queens) 11106
Ticket Info:
718-459-5496info@queensfilmfestival.com
www.queensfilmfestival.com
DVD SALES CONTINUE
Thanks to all who placed pre-orders! All orders placed prior to Oct. 1
were
shipped on or before Oct. 20. All orders placed since Oct. 1 are
currently
being processed and shipped. Expect to wait 2 weeks from when you place
an
order before your DVD arrives. Regular shipping can take up to 2 weeks.
Rush
orders for 2-day and overnight delivery are available in the United
States
for extra charge. We now have plenty of DVDs in stock.
Go to www.knocking.org and click on the red letters that say "Order DVD
Now"
Special notes:
-- Your credit card will be charged under the name TRANSIT MEDIA.
-- There is a 15% discount for ordering three or more DVDs.
-- Please allow 2 weeks for regular shipping.
-- DVD plays universally in all countries outside USA, but only on
newer
machines.
-- Credit cards preferred for international orders. Checks must be
drawn in
U.S. dollars.
MORE VIEWER COMMENTSPeople have been writing to us upon receiving their DVDs to give us
their
thoughts. Please tell us what you think about your DVD. Write to us at knockingdirector@msn.com and maybe your letter will be posted on our
web
site.
If you have questions about the cooperation of Watchtower in the
production
of KNOCKING, you may call Watchtower directly at 718-560-5600 weekdays
8am-5pm Eastern Standard Time.
Here's what people are saying:
As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I proceeded with caution in watching
your
film, due to the abundance of 'bad press' Witnesses get. But to my
utter
joy, I found it to be completely unbiased and well researched. The 3
hours
of extras on the DVD were absolutely phenomenal and worth the time
needed to
watch. All I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you. Well done. I'm
ordering another copy so that I can share it with those who may not be
able
to afford it because I can't bear to give up mine.
Cynthia Lessi
Surprise, Arizona
***************
I just received the DVD, and was totally blown away. The facts and
cases are
extremely well-weaved, the documentation and interviews are extensive,
and
the portrayal is unbiased. I have watched it twice, will watch it
again, and
I'm telling others about it.
Karen O’Neill
Roanoke, Virginia
***************
We loved the film, but also loved the DVD "extras" -- especially the
interviews with the directors. We hope you win every award there is to
win
out there!
Victor and Linda Whitted
Napa Valley, California
***************
I've been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 31 years, and I must say this
was
an exceptional and balanced film -- even better than the BBC’s “Purple
Triangles” video. I can see why you won so many awards.
John Toce
Louisiana
***************
Your film was great. Being a student journalist myself, I saw your
unbiased
lens and I appreciated it. For my whole life I have had to explain my
views,
defend my beliefs, and it was just refreshing to see this documentary
get it
right.
Matthew Polovina
***************
This documentary beautifully tells two separate but equally
heart-wrenching
stories of real people facing tremendous tests of their faith. It
delves
deeply into the thought and feelings of not only Jehovah’s Witnesses,
but
also those non-believers that have dealings with them, whether related
or
not. What particularly struck me was the film's trueness and honesty to
humans on both sides. The fact that Seth, a supposed 'model Jehovah’s
Witness', plays electric guitar to Van Halen over his collection of
field-service literature was a brilliant commentary on who we are, I
thought. My wife groaned a bit at that part and I don't really blame
her.
It's not exactly idealized behavior, but it's real. We are real people
and
we love life, so we like to have fun. We are also very serious when it
comes
to taking a stand for our faith. I thought the film showed that
wonderfully.
It's a great window into the sub-culture of Jehovah's Witnesses. Also,
I
highly recommend watching the DVD extra on street witnessing – it’s
great --
so true. I loved it and will share it with many.
James Strawn
***************
My copy of "Knocking" arrived today and I have spent part of the last
hour
in tears. The story pulled at my heart. I originally had trepidations.
Instead, what I have found is an honest depiction of our faith. I found
myself wondering how many additional copies I should order for my
family,
none of whom are Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Bill Canaday
Detroit
***************
You have shown my religion at its best times and its worst, and that is
only
fair. I will definitely share this video with all those I care about,
and
those looking for unbiased answers about my religion. I will surely see
it
again tonight. Bravo!
Jennie Bernal
Hialeah, Florida
***************
I personally loved the study guide that came with the DVD. Someone who
doesn't know anything about us will have a very clear understanding of
our
beliefs and how our organization is structured simply by reading the
study
guide. I also enjoyed the lecture series on the DVD that interviewed
several
non-Jehovah’s Witness experts. I plan on telling my friends and
workmates
about the DVD. Thanks for making such a fantastic film!
Jessie Hernandez
Miami, Florida
***************
Thank you for your documentary. It's so nice to be portrayed as a real
person. It is sad that, perhaps due to ignorance, others perceive
Jehovah’s
Witnesses as dangerous fanatics. Perhaps your film will help others to
understand us.
Deborah Hard
Denton, Texas



This Update is sponsored by Open Door Films, and is provided as a
public
service to support conversations around the film, "Knocking".
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 9 years ago



"Riveting and illuminating. KNOCKING takes us inside the world of Jehovah's Witnesses in a way that is utterly surprising and moving."
–Anderson Cooper, CNN
If anyone wants to send a response to Anderson Cooper and let him known the real truth about the Witnesses here is the link to do so. I would hope that CNN will consider doing a story on the pedophile ruling in California. Last year I sent info about the JW blood policy to this link and the producers were very interested, until Hurricane Katrina moved in. Maybe if we all contact them with the truth about "the truth" they will consider again.

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?10 If anyone wants to send a response to Anderson Cooper and let him known the real truth about the Witnesses here is the link to do so.
 
Oroborus21
Oroborus21 9 years ago

I get accused of talking out of my a--, so I ordered the DVD (three of them actually) tonight. I think people have to see it to really comment on it.
-Eduardo
 
DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 9 years ago

BTTT
 
sir82
sir82 9 years ago

Hmmm...
A documentary is described as "balanced" and "unbiased" by lifelong JWs...do they even know the meaning of the words, after decades of reading other fine exmples of "unbiased" and "balanced" magazines such as the "Watchtower" and "Awake"?
 
sf
sf 9 years ago

We loved the film, but also loved the DVD "extras" -- especially the
interviews with the directors. We hope you win every award there is to
win
out there!
Victor and Linda Whitted
Napa Valley, California
Guess they haven't read about the court ruling and/ or the cases coming up in their neck of the woods.
They are in for a rude Awakening!
sKally
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 9 years ago

My copy of "Knocking" arrived today and I have spent part of the last
hour
in tears. The story pulled at my heart. I originally had trepidations.
Instead, what I have found is an honest depiction of our faith.
Oh really? So they have included the UN membership, child abuse scandals, shunning rule, doctrinal flip flops and the confusing mess that is the current blood policy after all? Funny, the reviews I have read didn't mention any of them.
 
Odrade
Odrade 9 years ago

Carla, if that comment was addressed to me, you will notice that I referred only to this movie; and judging it without seeing it, is a bit like the JWs judging "worldly" material without cracking the cover. The organization is a different story, I know because I was there.
 I believe, based on reviews, that it is biased, and likely a propaganda-type movie. However, I will not be writing any letters to anyone until/unless I see it. To do so without seeing it lacks credibility. I wonder what a newspaper thinks when they receive a letter that says "I will never watch this movie and you shouldn't show it because it is all lies!" I'm sure the first thing the editor thinks is "how do they know? They haven't seen it."
 As a sidenote: "god-given brain"?, well, then, I'm quite happy that my brain evolved.
 
sf
sf 9 years ago

Yes, common sense tells one that it is par to see a movie before reviewing it in its entirety.
Yet, so many people see or don't see movies only AFTER critics have seen it and give their PUBLIC reviews. Based on those reviews they make a decision. NOT after they themselves sit through it to decide if it has ANY merit to sit through even one second of it.
Trailers work well in showing the jest of the theme too. Many times a trailer will be my deciding factor if I want to invest time and/ or money in seeing a movie of any kind.
When you go back to when this movie was first discovered, there is much debate and discussion on it. All over the net.
I myself do want to view and re-view it a few times in order to know what and how to counter its MISREPRESENTATIONS OF FACTS.
I suggest carla take a couple of moments to consider the benefits OF seeing it. Even if you can only stomach it once. Try darlin'. You will then be armed with knowing how the enemy is actually moving about.
Plan your strategies accordingly, to what you are WITNESSING. KNOW YOUR ENEMY and focus on your target CARLA.
sKally
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 9 years ago

Oroborus,
Are you buying Christmas presents? I mean three (3) copies....
Skeeter
 
Oroborus21
Oroborus21 9 years ago

yeah Skeeter, one for the Father, Son and the Holy Spigot...
-eduardo
 
Odrade
Odrade 9 years ago



I myself do want to view and re-view it a few times in order to know what and how to counter its MISREPRESENTATIONS OF FACTS. I suggest carla take a couple of moments to consider the benefits OF seeing it. Even if you can only stomach it once. Try darlin'. You will then be armed with knowing how the enemy is actually moving about.

I agree 100%, I do intend to comment, just not yet. I want to know exactly how to fight this particular piece of propaganda. I'd rather not give anyone an easy way to dismiss my criticism, so I will see the "documentary" before I protest it.
 
DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 9 years ago

Post your comments
http://www.watchtowerexposed.blogspot.com/
 

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Topic Summary
i found the below quote on this website.
http://www.newday.com/films/knocking.html and was surprised to read this review from a well known anchor at cnn .
"riveting and illuminating.



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Hiererchy among elders --so says Kenneth Flodin
by wannaexit 12 hours ago 10 Replies latest 34 minutes ago   jw friends
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wannaexit
wannaexit 12 hours ago

There has always been a hierarchy among elders. Now it's been validated by Kenneth Flodin in this talk about the word "princes". So not any elder can be a prince in the new order. Oh no, you have to be a governing body helper, or a district overseer etc. Have a look at 3:30 if you don't want to listen to the whole thing.
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbmw_201603_1_VIDEO
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 12 hours ago

So. . . . .
Using Flodin's "garlic bread" analysis of human spirituality, would a "prince" be a thick slice of "Texas toast"?
Or perhaps a really nice Jewish Rye with butter?
Cinnamon rasin loaf?
 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 10 hours ago



Starting at :40min Flodin says the following: 'Who are the Princes? We have consistently indicated that these are the appointed Elders since 1914.' REALLY KEN? HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT WITH THE AMOUNT OF LIES YOU CONTINUE TO PRESENT TO 'THE FLOCK'? Until the 1932 two-part Watchtower article entitled "Jehovah's Organization" all Elders were democratically elected by their local congregations. Prior to 1932 the local body of elders was NOT appointed by the Watchtower Society and their 'fictitious' (revised history) governing body. They sealed the deal only in 1938 with the publication of the articles entitled: "Unity in action", "Organization part one" and 'Organization part two."
 +8 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 9 hours ago

Lol!!! I think Abraham and progeny would take exception to that silliness. Those idiots won't be in charge of anything. No 3rd parties required.
Besides, if resurrected ones are neither male nor female, like the angels, how's that going to work? Angels or the like don't take direction from imperfect humans. You would think people there would be sick and tired of others interference ... that's no paradise.
IF I wasn't "saved" because of your blood and sacrifice to get into paradise, you can piss off.
 +1 / -0
AFRIKANMAN
AFRIKANMAN 8 hours ago
breakfast of champions - What if he is Gluten intolerant ??
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 8 hours ago

His assumptions are very offensive to every Elder serving. He is telling them that Jesus will appoint men from amongst those in positions higher than themselves, the CO's and GB helpers. There are a number of Elders who have more sincere spiritual qualities than those serving higher up. It's usually their circumstances or their being overlooked for appointment that keeps them in the positions that they are in. They are the ones that have had families and take their jobs seriously in being the financial provider.
They pretend to know what is going to happen in the future and have been spouting off with new ideas of late. Jackson made mention of it in this months Broadcast. They are pulling out their ideas from nowhere but rattle of scriptures plucked from here and there and in this case, Flodin reads out from publications as if they are from the bible itself.
Why is it that immediately after Armageddon the number required to serve as 'Princes' will be significantly reduced? As a rough estimate there would be approximately 1 CO for 75 Elders (I've got no idea and it is purely based on 1 CO controlling 15 congregations with 5 Elders in each). That's one 'Prince' for every 1,500 people. He's instantly going to need superhuman powers.
Then Flodin has to somehow include the females. They've been doing this a lot lately. Even though there will be no such appointments for them (unless they're going to heaven) but they must reach out and attain the same qualities as the Elders. He twisted the scripture which explains the qualities required of appointed men, even though he denied it in one breath but by doing so, he says females should be taking on the role of 'presiding over her own household'. (1 Tim 2:3&4). Surely they see that as the husbands role but this just demonstrates how they're happy to misapply scripture.
It really irked me when he said that twice a year they review MS's to see whether they should be appointed as Elders. How about they implement a system where twice a year, they review whether an Elder, CO, GB helper and even a GB member should retain their positions? Their whole structure would fail if they were responsible enough to do this.
 +5 / -0
hoser
hoser 8 hours ago
All of the elders are equal, but some elders are more equal than others.
 +4 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 6 hours ago
Yeah but what happens if you are neither male nor female? You're right about one thing, they sound crazier than cray cray. People who have no clue what's going to happen tomorrow, have no business discussing daily doings of the future.
 
Lostandfound
Lostandfound an hour ago

Listener
excellent review of this.
We should start predicting (or is that prophesying) what amazing New Light is due next, maybe elders judged by the contributions of their congregation when appointing Prices, a ban on milk, after all, cows have blood! Or need for titles for the revered ones, Saint Stephen or Lord Flodin. Maybe even Majesty Jackson . Then again they are so desperate to keep up the drivel to distract the flock that they could just about do anything. You just could not make it up (but they do!)
 
sir82
sir82 42 minutes ago

Hmm, Flodin is a "GB helper", so I guess he just nominated himself to be a future "prince".
As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"

 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 34 minutes ago

Sorry boys but there can only be one prince.



 +1 / -0

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Mennonite article on JW site
by undercover 10 years ago 15 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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undercover
undercover 10 years ago

The article about the Mennonite family becoming JWs is on the main page of the WTS website.
http://watchtower.org/library/w/2005/9/1/article_01.htm
In the course of the article they give a little history of the sect but the juicy parts that would interest most of us here in "apostate land" are in the second half of the article.
Some snippets:
Start of the arcticle: ONE morning in November 2000, some missionaries of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Bolivia glanced out the window of their small home and saw a group of plainly dressed men and women standing nervously at the gate. When the missionaries opened the gate, the visitors’ first words were, “We want to find the truth from the Bible.” The visitors were Mennonites. The men wore overalls, the women dark aprons, and they spoke among themselves in a German dialect. There was fear in their eyes. They kept looking to see if they had been followed. Nevertheless, even while climbing the steps to enter the house, one of the young men said, “I want to know the people who use God’s name.”
...
Some Mennonite groups, determined to keep separate from the modern world, have moved their communities to places where local governments allow them to live without interference. In Bolivia, for instance, an estimated 38,000 Mennonites live in numerous remote colonies, each with different rules of conduct. Some colonies forbid motor vehicles, permitting only horses and buggies. Certain colonies forbid radio, TV, and music. Some even forbid learning the language of the country they live in. “So as to keep us under their control, the preachers don’t let us learn Spanish,” commented one colony resident. Many feel oppressed and live in dread of being expelled from the community—a terrible prospect for one who has never experienced life outside.
It was under these circumstances that a Mennonite farmer named Johann saw a copy of the Watchtower magazine in his neighbor’s home... He asked to borrow the magazine.
...
Some of Johann’s family began talking to their neighbors about the things they were learning from the Bible. ... Soon, ten of the family set out on a secret trip in search of Jehovah’s Witnesses and ended up at the home of the missionaries, as mentioned at the outset
...
A few days later, the church elders came to the home of Johann’s family with an ultimatum for the interested ones: “We heard that Jehovah’s Witnesses visited you. You must forbid them to return, and unless you hand over their literature to be burned, you face expulsion.” They had had just one Bible study with the Witnesses, so this presented a formidable test.
“We cannot do as you ask,” replied one of the family heads. “Those people came to teach us the Bible.” How did the elders react? They expelled them for studying the Bible! This was a cruel blow indeed. The cart belonging to the colony cheese factory passed by the home of one family without collecting their milk, denying them their only source of income. One family head was dismissed from his job. Another was turned away from buying supplies at the colony store, and his ten-year-old daughter was expelled from school. Neighbors surrounded one home to take away the wife of one of the young men, asserting that she could not live with her expelled husband. Despite all of this, the families who studied the Bible did not give up their search for the truth.
...
Cut off from their community, the families began making their own cheese. The missionaries helped them...
...
“It was difficult after we were expelled from the community. We would travel to the Kingdom Hall with sad faces,” recalls one family member, “but we returned joyful.” Indeed, local Witnesses rose to the occasion and offered support.

Gee...people who dared think for themselves and buck the overbearing system they were a part of are expelled and shunned. Now, what if they decide to study with some Catholics or Protestants after becoming JWs? What happens then?
 
Gopher
Gopher 10 years ago

Wow. This is a classic case of leaving the frying pan to jump into the fire.
Certain colonies forbid radio, TV, and music. Some even forbid learning the language of the country they live in.
So probably these Mennonites didn't have access to the Internet. Such circumstances make them PERFECT targets for the Watchtower Society.
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 10 years ago

what a load of crap
 
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 10 years ago

Cut off from their community, the families began making their own cheese.
 And we thought disfellowshipping and shunning was bad! At least our cheese supply would remain constant.
I used to read this stuff and think, "Why do these experiences always happen in some faraway place, with such simple folk who only want to learn the truth, and instinctively seem to know that they will learn it from the JWs?"
Whereas in my reality, householders were either mildly annoyed at being intruded upon or downright hostile. None seemed to be thirsting for the truth I had in my bookbag. It must be my fault!
Now, methinks that the Brooklyn writing department takes huge creative liberties. Any grain of truth in these fantasies is tiny indeed. IOW - what a load of crap!
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 10 years ago

Cut off from their community, the families began making their own cheese. The missionaries helped them...
Ireverent, but I could not help but think of that line in "Life of Brian", where they misheard what Jesus said ;
"Blessed are the cheesemakers"
 
parakeet
parakeet 10 years ago

If that story is true, I'll eat my hat. I live in Pennsylvania Mennonite country and know a little about the Mennonites. The day a group of them stands outside the local KH and asks to come in for bible study is the day I'll eat my other hat.
 
undercover
undercover 10 years ago

If that story is true, I'll eat my hat. I live in Pennsylvania Mennonite country and know a little about the Mennonites. The day a group of them stands outside the local KH and asks to come in for bible study is the day I'll eat my other hat.
Well, them Bolivian Mennonites, they're a little different from our Pennslyvania brethren...

Reminds of the Harrison Ford movie, "Witness" about a cop who tries to protect an Amish boy and ends up staying in the Amish community while recuperating from a gunshot wound. One day he goes into town with the other Amish and gets in a fight with some local bullies. Some of the local townfolk start murmuring about how they've never seen Amish act like that. The old man of the Amish group just says "He's from Ohio. My cousin."
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 10 years ago

Many feel oppressed and live in dread of being expelled from the community—a terrible prospect for one who has never experienced life outside.
That sounds like a description of a lot of jws I know.
If there is any truth in this "experience", which I doubt, I feel sorry for the people concerned. They've left one sick religion to join an even sicker one. They have my heartfelt sympathy.
 
undercover
undercover 10 years ago

In all the fairness, that I can muster, to the WTS...I don't know that going from the Mennonites to the JWs is worse.
No music? No cars? No electricity? (cue up the closing theme to Gilligan's Island)
Having to dress even worse than JWs? They have to remain apart from society even more than JWs? They live in much more tight knit communities than JWs do. Church elders have much more control over the community than elders do over JWs.
While living in the JW community can be pretty fucked up, I would think coming from the Mennonite community to the JW community probably does feel like being freed from slavery...much the way we felt when we left the JWs and went in to the "regular" world.

The dastardlyness (if that's a word) is the WTS trying to capitalize on the experience of those Mennonites whose church treated them so badlly for wanting to study with JWs when in fact, the WTS carrys on much the same way when their members try to do the same as these former Mennonites did. Hello Kettle? Pot here...
 
Stealth453
Stealth453 10 years ago

"Why do these experiences always happen in some faraway place, with such simple folk who only want to learn the truth, and instinctively seem to know that they will learn it from the JWs?"
Makes it harder to refute.
 
New Worldly Translation
New Worldly Translation 10 years ago

Like Parakeet I'm skeptical of that story. I don't own a hat but if that stories true I'll go out and buy a hat and then eat it.
The funny thing with these apocryphal stories is that other cults have very similar ones. The mormons probably have a version where it's an Amish crowd in Guatamala knocking on the gates of their temple asking to be taught about their ways.
 
MinisterAmos
MinisterAmos 10 years ago


 This load of crap was the last "real" meeting for me and if you don't believe it just check my join date here and the date of the article.
The PO gave this study and described it with such disgust that he looked like a Jew with a BLT sandwich. This is the same turd with FOUR daughters all DF'ed and a wife dying of cancer that they are not able to visit or even speak with.
I remember "studying" the WT beforehand and then watching in disbelief as the sheep sat there in slack-jawed interest
 
Kudra
Kudra 10 years ago

The way this is written (at least the selected parts of the initial post) makes me think a secret apostate wrote this as some "WT satire" to get the sheep to think. I mean come ON, who could read that and not be disgusted at how they are shunned without having creeping disgust in the back of their own mind for the JWs own disfellowshipping tactics?
-K
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 10 years ago

“We cannot do as you ask,” replied one of the family heads. “Those people came to teach us the Bible.” How did the elders react? They expelled them for studying the Bible! This was a cruel blow indeed. The cart belonging to the colony cheese factory passed by the home of one family without collecting their milk, denying them their only source of income. One family head was dismissed from his job. Another was turned away from buying supplies at the colony store, and his ten-year-old daughter was expelled from school. Neighbors surrounded one home to take away the wife of one of the young men, asserting that she could not live with her expelled husband. Despite all of this, the families who studied the Bible did not give up their search for the truth.
I smelled a rat when I first saw this article, so I asked Google about Mennonite shunning.

The Amish practice of shunning--avoiding a former member in every way possible, excluding that person from both the church and community--is considered a means of guarding the Amish culture.
The idea behind shunning is based on Matthew 18:15-17: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you . . . But if he will not listen, take one or two others along . . .. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Other references are
1 Corinthians 5:11 and Romans 16:17.
Mennonites today do not practice shunning, though it is still practiced by the Amish church in some communities. In fact, the issue was one of the main reasons the Amish began as a split-off sect of the Mennonites in the late 17th century.
http://www.thirdway.com/menno/glossary.asp?ID=104
I still smell that rat.
Cheers
Chris
 
bennyk
bennyk 10 years ago

The Old Colony Mennonites do shun in the manner that the article describes. Many other affiliations of Mennonites do not, and it also often varies from congregation to congregation within a given affiliation, because Mennonites have congregational church government, rather than an hierarchy over an entire affiliation. So there is nothing inherently suspicious (in and of itself) in the article. (Hats are probably especially tasty with mustard.)
However, it is exceedingly ironic that the article just as easily could have been written regarding JW's who consider leaving or do leave the Witness "fold". Maybe I was an Old Colony Mennonite all those fun-filled years...
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 10 years ago

So, the mennonites gave up all the keep JW *literature* after one encounter with JWs? They weren't asked to do anything but give up WT LITERATURE or be shunned. Isn't it amazing how the WT is trying to instill in JWs an overabundance of reverence for LITERATURE???? To give up all for LITERATURE? THATS NUTS. Sorry for yelling, the article pisses me off, and I think that it is incredibly ironic. Shelly
 

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I done a bad thing...
by Elsewhere 11 years ago 29 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago


After reading the Sept 1 2005 article about the Mennonites in which the Watchtower Society condemns the Mennonite church for shunning former members, I could not resist the temptation to send a letter to my parents about it.
After my letter I included a copy of the article with key areas highlighted.

[Parents' Names],
Someone pointed out a very interesting article in the Sept. 1, 2005 Watchtower MENNONITES -- Search for Bible Truth. In this article the Mennonite church is condemned by the Watchtower Society for shunning members who studied the bible and came to conclusions that are different from what are taught by the church.
I find this very interesting. Does this mean you will no longer shun me for coming to conclusions about the bible that are different from what the Watchtower Society teaches? Or is this article filled with nothing more than double standards and hypocrisy?
Sincerely,
[Elsewhere]
 
skyman
skyman 11 years ago

Good for you. Let all of us know if they respond.
 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 11 years ago


I don't know why they wouldn't talk to you. You have a mennonite hat on in your avatar!
W.Once
 
jgnat
jgnat 11 years ago

I hope something gets through, Elsewhere. Perhaps they are mourning their loss as deeply as you are.
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 11 years ago


One time, right after the last time I spoke with my father, I called up the Church of Scientology and told them I was so interested in what they had to say. I asked to have them send me all their information and I would send them a check for $100. When they asked where to send their literature, I gave them my father's name and address.
That was a bad thing.
What you did Else, that's way cool. I'll be very interested to hear if they respond and if they do, what they have to say.
 
Gill
Gill 11 years ago


Elsewhere - Take it from your older 'sister' - It's sooooo GOOD to be bad!!!!!!
Kick their asses and rub their noses in it etc.
Sorry for my exuberance, but i've had faaaar too much to drink! (hicccc!)
 
BrendaCloutier
BrendaCloutier 11 years ago


Sorry for my exuberance, but i've had faaaar too much to drink! (hicccc!)
erm, to the gills?

Goodonya Else!
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago


lol @ everyone!
Yeah Big_Tex... that WAS a bad thing!
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 11 years ago


elsewhere,
I can see the disinence reply already: " The menonite community shunned people in the village. However, YOU CHOSE to leave and be shunned. This is different, and now you're blaming Jehovah's organization for YOUR actions."
steve
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago

Yup... it is amazing how blind JWs are.
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 11 years ago


 
stevenyc
stevenyc 11 years ago


Hey Matt,
That was a very ZEN like post.
Hope your doing well.
steve
 
lonelysheep
lonelysheep 11 years ago

Very good, Elsewhere!
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 11 years ago


Yo Steve,
Doing great! Thanks for noticing the zenness.
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 11 years ago


Good on you Elseware.
Someone else found this too which I find rather interesting. Apparently, the Mennonites haven't practiced shunning since the late 17th century at the latest, so the incident in the Sept WT must be quite an old one.
http://www.thirdway.com/menno/glossary.asp?ID=104
 
Mary
Mary 11 years ago


Big Tex said: I called up the Church of Scientology and told them I was so interested in what they had to say. I asked to have them send me all their information and I would send them a check for $100. When they asked where to send their literature, I gave them my father's name and address.
Big Tex that's just disgusting. I mean I would never consider doing something so evil. With that said, I must confess that a few weeks ago, a close friend (another ex-Dub) nearly had a breakdown from dealing with her bitch of a boss who is lower than a sack of disgarded worm pus. Everyone there hates her. She has permanent PMS. She was actually fired from another job for sexual harassment and a ton of people have either quit or been fired since she took over the helm. Naturally I had to do something to make my friend feel better. I went to a public payphone and called the Mormons, the Kingdumb Hell, the Muslims, the Baptists, Catholics, Alcohol Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, a Sex-therapy Clinic, 4 Plastic Surgeons' offices, 2 Psychologists' offices, and couple of Escort Services and left a message using this witchs' name and her telephone number. I asked that they please call right away. She's really interested in a nose job, a boob job and possibly a sex change. Yes it cost me a few bucks in quarters, but  "...there exists a friend sticking closer than a brother...."
 
damselfly
damselfly 11 years ago


Good for you!
I wonder if that article will make any JW's think about the hypocrisy involved with shunning their flesh and blood.
Probably not.
Dams
 
TresHappy
TresHappy 11 years ago

How about what happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I received an invitation to the "Employee Appreciation Breakfast" from my former employer. Mind you, the employer that let me go! I sent two emails expressing my condolences, including to the lady who let me go. I told her "I am sure you would have saved me a seat!" I so enjoyed writing it!
 
dedpoet
dedpoet 11 years ago

Good on you Elsewhere, it might make them think about how unfeeling the practice of shunning is, but I seroiusly doubt it
 
delilah
delilah 11 years ago


Good for you Elsewhere....I'm interested in hearing the outcome of it.
Delilah
 

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I done a bad thing...
by Elsewhere 11 years ago 29 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago


Good for you Elsewhere....I'm interested in hearing the outcome of it.
I have sent my parents several letters over the years. To date they have never responded to or acknowledged any of them.
So far the only communications from them have been on their terms. (We want you to go back to the KH... Aunt So and So is dead.... Cousin So and So is dead... etc...)
 
cruzanheart
cruzanheart 11 years ago


Where there's life, there's hope. Don't give up on them, Elsewhere!
Hugs,
Nina
 
Preston
Preston 11 years ago


One time, right after the last time I spoke with my father, I called up the Church of Scientology and told them I was so interested in what they had to say. I asked to have them send me all their information and I would send them a check for $100. When they asked where to send their literature, I gave them my father's name and address
The bad news was weeks later a couple of scientologists showed up at Big tex's dad's house and started jumping on his couch
- Preston
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 11 years ago

well done = short brief and too the point - just as it should be
 
Es
Es 11 years ago

Well done heheh that was good es
 
carla
carla 11 years ago

I have had a ministry that reaches out to cults send info to an elders daughter, and another guy. If I had more addresses I would send more. Do you think that's bad? They send a packet on the jw's and some history, etc.. carla
 
MidwichCuckoo
MidwichCuckoo 11 years ago

Not a bad thing at all! Very well put
 
Sirona
Sirona 11 years ago


They deserve to be challenged on something so serious,
Sirona
 
LouBelle
LouBelle 11 years ago

Elsewhere - thanks - I've done the same thing - I've sent a letter to my friends and family - hopefully they'll catch a wake up!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Golf
Golf 11 years ago

Your act was right and honorable.

Golf
 

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Topic Summary
after reading the sept 1 2005 article about the mennonites in which the watchtower society condemns the mennonite church for shunning former members, i could not resist the temptation to send a letter to my parents about it.. after my letter i included a copy of the article with key areas highlighted.. [parents' names],.
someone pointed out a very interesting article in the sept. 1, 2005 watchtower mennonites -- search for bible truth.
in this article the mennonite church is condemned by the watchtower society for shunning members who studied the bible and came to conclusions that are different from what are taught by the church.



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What Mennonites Are Thinking; Compare the WTS
by onacruse 13 years ago 2 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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onacruse
onacruse 13 years ago


Mennonites (about 1,000,000 worldwide) and the Amish share a common Anabaptist theology, but with several conservative-liberal distinctions. Somebody who can't "cut it" as a member of the Amish community frequently jumps over to a more liberal (though theologically similar) Mennonite group. Therefore I thought the following remark from What Mennonites Are Thinking 1999 was interesting (p. 83):
In North America, the membership in the Old Order and conservative [Mennonite] groups will surpass that of the more modern "mainstream" groups by the year 2005, according to best estimates. Contrary to popular perception, the groups with the more intentional boundaries are growing faster and retaining more of their young people than those with less identity.
There is a basic compulsion in many people to have a religion tell them what to do and how to think, even as they resent the control that that religion has over their lives. They say they can't tolerate what they consider to be a too-restrictive religion, but when they jump over to a more liberal group, they still gravitate to the mind- and behavior-control scenario (ala The True Believer).
It stands to reason that the WTS will actually do better for themselves (membership-wise) in maintaining strict and exclusionary policies, relentless in the face of internal pressures. Changes will not sprout from within the org; they must be imposed from the outside. (ala the Jimmy Swaggart trial, denial of IRS tax-exemption, and subsequent "new light" on the "voluntary donation" program...the UN NGO fiasco...child abuse/pedophilia...and perhaps DFing policies next?).
As someone here posted, a phrase that has stuck in my mind: "When the law of love fails, the hand of Caesar prevails."
Craig
 
Brummie
Brummie 13 years ago


Interesting! I swear I will purchase that True Believer book soon.
I visited the menonites terbanacle buildings when I was in PA, and also met some hamish folk (the hamish seemed very distant apart when they were selling some home made jam), I know very little of either group, the menonites seemed ok and very friendly but the amish appeared more cultic and probably a high control group?
Brummie
 
TresHappy
TresHappy 13 years ago

One thing different about Mennonites - the men grow beards when they are married. That couldn't happen in the Watchtower.
 

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JW.ORG has competition!!
by sparky1 2 years ago 18 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparky1
sparky1 2 years ago

Even the Mennonites won't be left behind in having an out of date and hard to use website! This announcement was 2 months ago but still is rather interesting. From mennoniteusa.org:
"We are pleased to announce that a new Mennonite Church USA website will be launched over the weekend of July 5-6! We've designed it in response to feedback from our users (you!), staff and communications consultants."
Can the Mennonite version of Caleb and Sophia be in the works?
 
jw07
jw07 2 years ago

To be honest it looks like crap
 
Apognophos
Apognophos 2 years ago

The only logical place to go from here is amish.com (hey, look, it's available!).
 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 2 years ago

I am not sure what a cult thinks that adding a web page changes anything. Sounds like delusional thinking to me.
 
berrygerry
berrygerry 2 years ago

At least they post their procedures for all to see and know.
http://resources.mennoniteusa.org/about/confession-of-faith-in-a-mennonite-perspective-1995/article-14-discipline-in-the-church/
 
AudeSapere
AudeSapere 2 years ago

Aren't the Menonites like the Amish? No electricity or 'modern' conveniences? If so, how are they getting internet?
Maybe I'm confused. I think I am now.
-Aude.
 
millie210
millie210 2 years ago


The only logical place to go from here is amish.com (hey, look, it's available!).

The Mennonites, The Amish and Jws?

There has GOT to be a joke in here somewhere!
 
Perry
Perry 2 years ago

The Mennonites have an interesting history being descendants of European believers who did not need the 'services' of the oppressive and apostate Papacy.
There were many, many groups that were consulted by politically connected individuals that helped spawn what we now refer to as the Reformation.
Anabaptists
Albigenses
Hussites (John Huss)
Waldenses
Donatists, etc.
Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone has a very long history. It is a history that could have saved us all a lot of trouble and kept us out of a cult had we been aware of it.
 
DwainBowman
DwainBowman 2 years ago

Hey, Thanks for your post!

Dwain
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

The Mennonites recently split off in to Menintights. It was a painful move, shocking in its flagrant audacity and requiring at least a lifetime of soothing physiotherapy. Some have asserted it is a mark of the time of the end...just like every other sign over the past three hundred years.
 
smiddy
smiddy 2 years ago

I seem to remember the watchtower once made a reference to the Waldenses as being in line with JW theology allowing for the dimness of light that was being received at that time.
smiddy
 
Beautiful Dreamer
Beautiful Dreamer 2 years ago

Lol@ Steve2!
 
NAVYTOWN
NAVYTOWN 2 years ago

I once visited a Mennonite family near San Diego. They lived in a rather typical suburban house. They had cars, and seemingly most modern conveniences. The males of the household ( father and teenage sons) all wore beards and long-sleeve shirts. They conducted a religious service in their living room. They seemed to be very sincere and pleasant folks. After the service, they invited me to their back yard where I joined them in picking figs. I took home a nice box of figs and found the experience quite educational. In retrospect, they seemed a lot less brainwashed than the typical JW. That was my one and only experience with Mennonites.
 
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 2 years ago

I wonder if the Mennonites are as surprised as JW's are, that anyone visits their site ?
With all the JW.org hoopla, JW's are acting like they invented the Internet now that they have a website.
 
cantleave
cantleave 2 years ago

Just as money grabbing as the Borg
http://resources.mennoniteusa.org/give/
 
Fernando
Fernando 2 years ago

"Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone has a very long history. It is a history that could have saved us all a lot of trouble and kept us out of a cult had we been aware of it."
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

Nearly every strange little religion like the JW's now have theri very own "Unique Website".
The LDS (Mormons) have one very similar to the JW one, of course that gets more hits, and has been up and running for longer.
JW.Org has REAL competiton in the form of information on the Net, it is very easy with just a few clicks of your mouse to find Truth, rather than the obfuscation, fallacies and lies found on JW.Org.
 
BluePill2
BluePill2 2 years ago

Indeed, indeed JW.ORG has competition like: redtube DOT com, xhamster DOT com and the like! (Don't click those links! They are NOT WORK SAFE! - Just to make a joke :wink:
Other than that: hipocrites abound - cults that reject technology having a website FOR THE MONEY!

Edit: changed the links from live links to dead links. Don't want to get into hot water here
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 years ago


sparky1 - "Can the Mennonite version of Caleb and Sophia be in the works?"
I'm sure the "animation department" can use the work.

millie210 - "The Mennonites, The Amish and JWs? There has GOT to be a joke in here somewhere!"
Close.
"A JW, a Moonie, and a Scientologist walked into a bar...
...and got booted out in less than five minutes for starting a turf war."
 

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As a Matter of Conscience, I Am Resigning from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
by Sail Away 7 months ago 65 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

After listening to the hearings of the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, I am no longer content to have simply walked away from the organization. As a matter of conscience, I do not want my name linked with the organization in any way. I know this letter has been posted previously, and I thank the author.
I have modified the letter to meet my circumstances and to specifically warn the appointed men that they may be held legally and criminally responsible for their actions. There are two congregations that meet at my former Kingdom Hall, and I have been a member of both. I plan to send a notarized letter to each body of elders. I was baptized in 1976 in the named congregation and refuse to disassociate from the organization. I was not baptized into an organization. I don't see this step as playing by their rules.
 I don't want to be contacted by appointed men under any circumstances and would prefer to not have to deal with the shunning, gossip and slander that would likely ensue should an announcement that I am no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses come from the platform. I am already effectively being shunned, as no witness will initiate contact with me, but they are civil in public. I would prefer to leave it that way, as I live in a small community. I have absolutely nothing to lose personally. I no longer want any connection to the organization as a whole. I have no issue with individual members who are held captive to the doctrine, principles and practices of this corporation masquerading as a religion.
SailAway

 August 18, 2015
 Address
 SENT BY US MAIL, REGISTERED, CERTIFIED, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED
 To:


The Body of Elders of the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses
C/o [xxx], Congregation Secretary
Address


As a matter of conscience and to exercise of my rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,.  I, SailAway, hereby resign from The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, et al , the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, et al, and the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses effective immediately, August 18, 2015.

 I hereby declare myself no longer a member.
 As a non-member, I demand complete freedom from all religious practices, which include but are not limited to discipline and retaliation. Examples of such religious practices may include a formal announcement of my non-member status before the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, shunning, intentional infliction of emotional distress, harassment, slander, invasion of privacy, etc. Should you engage in any such conduct towards me, I will immediately and fully utilize all legal means to stop those acts. Any and all of the above-named parties may be held jointly and severally responsible.
 Please refer to the following:


· Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church
· Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville
· Hadnot v. Shaw
· McNair v. Worldwide Church of God


Furthermore, I request immediate, complete, and permanent cessation from all contact from church elders, ministerial servants, circuit overseers or any other member appointed to a position of authority in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This includes, but is not limited to mail, electronic communications, telephone and in-person visits taking place at my residence (address noted above), workplace, or elsewhere. Please be aware that I will consider any in-person visits by appointed men on private property henceforth to be trespassing, and should that occur, I will utilize all legal means to stop that act, including but not limited to civil and criminal complaints.
 Thank you in advance for respecting my right to freedom from religion.
 Signed,


SailAway


[insert notary stamp and signature, if you're using one]



I would appreciate any constructive suggestions from this community,



SailAway




 +35 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 7 months ago
Well done and salutations! Enjoy your true new found freedom sir.
 +3 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 7 months ago
I like it. This is what more people need to do. Cover your a**. If the majority of people would do this, the GB might get a little nervous that there is more "persecution" coming their way (legally).
 +8 / -0
never a jw
never a jw 7 months ago
Are you planning to write in the letter that child abuse in the JW's congregations around the world and the RC hearings have prompted you to make this decision? It may start a slow process of waking up for the reader.

 +9 / -0
jw07
jw07 7 months ago

Congratulations Sail Away! That level of freedom must feel like winning the lottery every day for a year
 +3 / -0
Splash
Splash 7 months ago
Please keep us posted as to the results.
 +3 / -0
sir82
sir82 7 months ago
Nice. It would be even scarier if you got a legal firm to write it on their letterhead.

 +12 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

never a jw

Are you planning to write in the letter that child abuse in the JW's congregations around the world and the RC hearings have prompted you to make this decision? It may start a slow process of waking up for the reader.



Thanks for the support all!



never a jw, I have given a lot of thought to that question. My local elders know that I initially walked away due to my decision to not shun my son, so they may think I am referring to shunning. If I do make a reference to the Royal Commission and child sexual abuse, I would want it to be clear and succinct. I do not want the letter to give any fuel to the fire.



SailAway, a former JW "Sister"
 +4 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

sir82

Nice. It would be even scarier if you got a legal firm to write it on their letterhead.



That is a possibility!



SailAway
 +7 / -0
notsurewheretogo
notsurewheretogo 7 months ago

I hereby declare myself no longer a member.



So basically you are disassociating yourself and will be shunned and it will be announced, your legal jargon and threats will be empty to them.
 +3 / -4
sir82
sir82 7 months ago


your legal jargon and threats will be empty to them.
Nope, elders are instructed to "call the branch" (Bethel) if any sort of legal action is threatened. In most cases, the threat of legal action defers or even indefinitely postpones any "no longer a JW" announcement.
It has worked many many times before.

 +9 / -0
Marvin Shilmer
Marvin Shilmer 7 months ago

The OP letter is well put together and hits hard.
Alternately, a current JW who wants to disengage the religion can write a short letter to local elders stating the following:
Dear ...
This letter is to inform that several things about the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses (a subsidiary corporation used by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, and the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses as expressed in each of these organization's legal charters) have come to plague my Bible-trained conscience to a point where I'm very uncomfortable engaging in activities organized by it such as attending meetings at a Kingdom Hall, assembly or convention, or engaging in its public outreach work.
For the foreseeable future I do not wish to be approached by any authority appointed by one of the aforementioned entities carrying out their duties in that capacity. Personal social approach is always welcomed and appreciated. But, again, I do not want to be further burdened by coercion from these organization's appointed authorities acting in that capacity. I've shared my views with the aforementioned organizations. If they want they will share my concerns with you. That is up to them. It is not my intention to resist anything or anyone, except where I'm compelled by moral, ethical and legal standards I was raised and taught to embrace as my own and that are or should be well known to each of you.
I have not stopped following Jesus and have not stopped loving all of you. When I meet any of you in public or private I'll always welcome the opportunity to offer encouragement or otherwise interact as love compels me. My pray is that the several troublesome things I've learned about the aforementioned organizations from the aforementioned organizations are dealt with and changed. I'll watch for these changes, and if they occur I'll then reconsider engaging in their organized activities. Until then, as David responded to Saul when he implored David to "Come back," I am compelled to proceed on my way and leave the many troublesome things I see for God to deal with.--(See 1 Samuel 26:21-25)
Sincerely,

 +7 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 7 months ago
Bravo! I am feeling more this way every day. Its so embarrassing to have anything to do with these creeps
 +7 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

notsurewheretogo
So basically you are disassociating yourself and will be shunned and it will be announced, your legal jargon and threats will be empty to them.


I hereby declare myself no longer a member.
notsurewheretogo, of course, the elders are free to do as they wish and to suffer the potential consequences. That is their call. This ultimately has nothing to do with them or what they may think or do. It is about my freedom and my ability to hold my head high. As I stated, I have nothing to lose.
 +4 / -0
cantleave
cantleave 7 months ago
Well done, for for making the break. Welcome to the world of unconditional friendships and real humanity. Sadly you will lose the friendship of brainwashed cult members including family members and those you thought would stick by you. Don't let the bastards grind you down!
 +3 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

sir82



your legal jargon and threats will be empty to them.
Nope, elders are instructed to "call the branch" (Bethel) if any sort of legal action is threatened. In most cases, the threat of legal action defers or even indefinitely postpones any "no longer a JW" announcement.
It has worked many many times before.
^^^This
 +4 / -0
The Searcher
The Searcher 7 months ago
Well thought out letter, but has anyone ever challenged/tested the Org's practice of announcing that "so-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" via International Human Rights Law. That announcement effectively denies people their human rights to a family life.
 +6 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago


Marvin Shilmer

The OP letter is well put together and hits hard.
Thank you, Marvin Shilmer. Your letter from a current JW conveys the spirit of my intent. I wish to be left in peace and show love to any of my former associates who may wish to greet me.
SailAway
 +4 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

Well thought out letter, but has anyone ever challenged/tested the Org's practice of announcing that "so-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" via International Human Rights Law. That announcement effectively denies people their human rights to a family life.

The Searcher, thank you. It is my hope that if more of us take this step, such a challenge will be the outcome. There is strength in numbers.
SailAway
 +3 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 7 months ago

Nicely done, Sailaway.
Maybe you will no longer be counted in those "20 million associated JWs" that Jackson bragged about at the Royal Commission.
 +3 / -0

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As a Matter of Conscience, I Am Resigning from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
by Sail Away 7 months ago 65 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

cantleave
Well done, for for making the break. Welcome to the world of unconditional friendships and real humanity. Sadly you will lose the friendship of brainwashed cult members including family members and those you thought would stick by you. Don't let the bastards grind you down!
Can't leave, they have already done their damage. My JW in-laws have shunned my husband since he was a young adult. They now shun me, our children and their great grandchild. They have no definitive proof that I am nothing more than inactive. I have already lost the one JW "friend" who I still love as much or more than any family member.



SailAway


 +4 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 7 months ago

My local elders know that I initially walked away due to my decision to not shun my son,
well done you. my jw father never shunned me--he accepted i simply left the religion as i simply didnt believe in a god. hes paid the price for it though--hes in a care home--age 94---i'm his only visitor----no elders--no jw family-----even though they live half a mile away.
 +9 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

Nicely done, Sailaway.
Maybe you will no longer be counted in those "20 million associated JWs" that Jackson bragged about at the Royal Commission.
A fringe benefit, OrphanCrow!
 +4 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

stan livedeath


My local elders know that I initially walked away due to my decision to not shun my son,
well done you. my jw father never shunned me--he accepted i simply left the religion as i simply didnt believe in a god. hes paid the price for it though--hes in a care home--age 94---i'm his only visitor----no elders--no jw family-----even though they live half a mile away.
How sad stan livedeath. Hugs to you and yours.
SailAway
 +4 / -0
notsurewheretogo
notsurewheretogo 7 months ago

Nope, elders are instructed to "call the branch" (Bethel) if any sort of legal action is threatened. In most cases, the threat of legal action defers or even indefinitely postpones any "no longer a JW" announcement.
It has worked many many times before.
Has it really???? First I've heard of it.
Because of this...
but has anyone ever challenged/tested the Org's practice of announcing that "so-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" via International Human Rights Law.
As far as I am aware no-one has thus they see it as they are free to announce whatever.
Enjoy your freedom, it's an amazing feeling!!!!
 +2 / -0
the girl next door
the girl next door 7 months ago
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/49816/if-you-ever-wondered-why-hard-sue-wt-being-dfed-read-this
 
clarity
clarity 7 months ago

Sail away ......... this feels so right to me. Thank you for posting it.
If and when I go that far, and stand-up that strong ...I will run it past my lawyer and perhaps have him draw it up. It will be worth every cent me thinks!
clarity
 +4 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

the girl next doorhttp://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/49816/if-you-ever-wondered-why-hard-sue-wt-being-dfed-read-this
Thanks for this link. I scanned it briefly and will read it more carefully this evening.
SailAway
 
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago


clarity
Sail away ......... this feels so right to me. Thank you for posting it.
If and when I go that far, and stand-up that strong ...I will run it past my lawyer and perhaps have him draw it up. It will be worth every cent me thinks!
clarity
You are welcome, Clarity. Yes, it feels right and empowering, and I am leaning toward having my lawyer draw it up.

SailAway
 
paradisebeauty
paradisebeauty 7 months ago
interesting, wonder if they will not make the announcement any more
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 7 months ago

I think they will make the announcement that you have chosen to no longer be a JW.
And why not, you state that you want all contact cease. You'll get that as a result, I assure you.
Good luck to you!
Doc

 
DJS
DJS 7 months ago

SailAway,
Gutsy Girl. I'm impressed. I agree with those who suggest hiring a lawyer to write and send the letter is a good idea. Good luck.
 +1 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 months ago
I like it. Sweet, simple, to the point.
 +1 / -0
Dagney
Dagney 7 months ago
Well done. It feels good doesn't it to stand up for yourself and take control. The cost is dear, but the reward is priceless.
 +2 / -0
goingthruthemotions
goingthruthemotions 7 months ago
yahooo....marked
 +2 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 7 months ago
Great letter. I hope to use it. Keep us posted.
 +2 / -0
campaign of hate
campaign of hate 7 months ago

well done, im marking this for potential future reference.
And those saying they will announce it....they will not announce it. When legal action is threatened they will leave you well alone.
 +1 / -0
umbertoecho
umbertoecho 7 months ago
Well, you did that one well. All nice and concise and with knowledge of your legal rights....I applaud your courage...All the very best to you...
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 7 months ago

Great thread.
Im sure that sections of this can be used in a beneficial manner by many here in some form or another.
If that is ok sailaway?
 +2 / -0
AudeSapere
AudeSapere 7 months ago

You may want to name the specific elders to list of those who may be held legally responsible for slander and harassment.
I think is now mostly conducted on a local level. HQ can't be bothered. The local elders don't want to be hung to dry.
Just my $0.02.
-Aude.
 +3 / -0

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Topic Summary
after listening to the hearings of the australian royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, i am no longer content to have simply walked away from the organization.
as a matter of conscience, i do not want my name linked with the organization in any way.
i know this letter has been posted previously, and i thank the author.



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by AndersonsInfo 3 months ago
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by wifibandit 4 months ago



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As a Matter of Conscience, I Am Resigning from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
by Sail Away 7 months ago 65 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago


stuckinarut2
Great thread.
Im sure that sections of this can be used in a beneficial manner by many here in some form or another.
If that is ok sailaway?
Thank you all for your encouragement and support!
Absolutely, stuckinarut2, copy away!
 
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

AudeSapere
You may want to name the specific elders to list of those who may be held legally responsible for slander and harassment.
I think is now mostly conducted on a local level. HQ can't be bothered. The local elders don't want to be hung to dry.
Just my $0.02.
-Aude.

I thought of that, AudeSapere, but I haven't set foot in the KH in over four years. Ours was a congregation that always needed to import new elders, ministerial servants, pioneers, etc. It was like a revolving door. Everyone in the two congregations is related in one way or another-- to much inbreede, IMO. I do need to confirm the names of the respective congregation secretaries.
 +1 / -0
Thursday
Thursday 7 months ago
I meant to bookmark it, apologies, but can someone link me to the thread where it linked to the exhibit from the RC on requesting a copy of your personal file from your country's headquarters?
 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 7 months ago

Imagine what would happen if everyone that left sent a letter like this.
Vive le revolution!!
 +5 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 7 months ago

Sparrowdown: Imagine what would happen if everyone that left sent a letter like this.
Vive le revolution!!
Well I would bet that the harsh comments printed (of negativity toward faders and those who leave) would dry up pretty quick!
 +5 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 7 months ago

Oh yeah, they are just bullies in a suit and tie.
Sometimes all it takes is a few to storm the barricades and the rest will find their courage to do the same.
 +5 / -0
SimonSays
SimonSays 7 months ago

Bravo, you guys keep up the good work, anyone else has a letter they care to share.

Examples of such religious practices may include a formal announcement of my non-member status before the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, shunning, intentional infliction of emotional distress, harassment, slander, invasion of privacy, etc. Should you engage in any such conduct towards me, I will immediately and fully utilize all legal means to stop those acts. Any and all of the above-named parties may be held jointly and severally responsible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association
But then in Braunfeld v. Brown (1961) the Supreme Court seemed to suggest that the Free Exercise Clause might sometimes constitutionally mandate exemptions. And in Sherbert v. Verner (1963), the Court expressly adopted the constitutional exemption model, under which sincere religious objectors had a presumptive constitutional right to an exemption. Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972) reaffirmed this, and the period from 1963 to 1990 is often labeled the Sherbert/Yoder era of Free Exercise Clause law.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/2015-state-rfra-legislation.aspx
 +2 / -0
dissonance_resolved
dissonance_resolved 7 months ago
Good for you! Being completely free sounds fantastic- keep us posted how it goes.
 +3 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 7 months ago

Well done Sail away--- go out with a bang!
I was thinking that all JWs should be given the opportunity to know their rights on this matter.
Then there would be many more ready to leave knowing that the law and human rights are on their side. It is the fear of reprisals which keep the "conscious class" in.
 +3 / -0
happy@last
happy@last 7 months ago

I DA'd on principal also a few years ago, it certainly opens your eyes to the shunning! I think though if people choose to shun me I don't want to know them as they can't act as decent humans.
It feels so much better not having anyone hoping I will return or calling me up, having to look over my shoulder etc..
 +5 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

sparrowdown
Imagine what would happen if everyone that left sent a letter like this.
Vive le revolution!!

Yes, just imagine!
 +1 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

Simon Says, thanks for the links about Freedom of Association. I will share the information with my lawyer.
SailAway
 +1 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

Well done Sail away--- go out with a bang!
I was thinking that all JWs should be given the opportunity to know their rights on this matter.
Then there would be many more ready to leave knowing that the law and human rights are on their side. It is the fear of reprisals which keep the "conscious class" in.
Hi Half banana! Nice to see you here. It's not so much about going out with a bang for me. It is all about knowing as asserting my rights as a human being. I learned in therapy (DBT) the the WTB$ took away every single one of my Legitimate Human Rights:
YOUR LEGITIMATE RIGHTS
1.You have a right to need things from others.
2.You have a right to put yourself first sometimes.
3.You have a right to feel and express your emotions or your pain.
4.You have a right to be the final judge of your beliefs and accept them as legitimate.
5.You have the right to your opinions and convictions.
6.You have the right to your experience - even if it’s different from that of other people.
7.You have a right to protest any treatment or criticism that feels bad to you.
8.You have a right to negotiate for change.
9.You have a right to ask for help, emotional support, or anything else you need (even though you may not always get it).
10.You have a right to say no; saying no doesn’t make you bad or selfish.
11.You have a right not to justify yourself to others.
12.You have a right not to take responsibility for someone else’s problem.
13.You have a right to choose not to respond to a situation.
14.You have a right, sometimes, to inconvenience or disappoint others.
It is a sad reality that fear of reprisal holds many JWs captive.
SailAway
 +3 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

I DA'd on principal also a few years ago, it certainly opens your eyes to the shunning! I think though if people choose to shun me I don't want to know them as they can't act as decent humans.
It feels so much better not having anyone hoping I will return or calling me up, having to look over my shoulder etc..
happy@last, it just feels right to act on principal. Also, I want to be free of the feeling that they can just show up on my doorstep randomly and upset my peace. This is my home. They are not welcome to come here and judge me.
Last Christmas I was buying holiday wrapping paper, and a JW approached. I thought, "Oh, it's a good thing this only has a winter theme." How ridiculous to still be policing my actions based on their rules. Time to put an end to that.
SailAway
 +2 / -0
crazyhorse
crazyhorse 7 months ago
Nice letter, but I doubt if they'll not announce it. They will announce it and they won't care about your legal threats.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 7 months ago
The letter's pretty good, IMO, but as far as I'm concerned, voting with one's feet and wallet are the simplest and best ways.
 +1 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 7 months ago

Hi all! Just a quick update-- my lawyer is reviewing my letter and said he will get back to me early this week. I did add a reference to the Australian RC. Also, I incorporated some of Marvin Shilmer's language regarding social contact.
In the meantime I have made a few phone calls and used some reverse "theocratic warfare" to get the names and addresses of the current congregation secretaries involved. There is some justice in the universe. The congregation secretary in my former sister congregation is the elder that was like an older brother to my son who ultimately played a role in getting him DF'd.
 +4 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 6 months ago

My attorney has approved the text of my letter. He said it is well written and researched and he would not change a thing.Thanks again to all who have contributed to the content. I will be sending a letter to each of the two local congregations.
The next step is for my attorney to write a cover letter summarizing what I have stated, closing with instructions for the elders to call him if they have any questions. Further he will state that under no circumstances are they to contact me. I'll post his cover letter when I receive it.
Sail Away
September xx, 2015
 Address
 SENT BY US MAIL, REGISTERED, CERTIFIED, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED
 To:
The Body of Elders of the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses
C/o [xxx], Congregation Secretary
Address
After listening to sworn testimony of victims of child sexual abuse within the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Australia, Jehovah’s Witness elders and a governing body member in a public hearing of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, as a matter of conscience and to exercise of my rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I, Sail Away, hereby resign from The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, et al, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, et al, and the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses effective immediately, September xx, 2015.

 I hereby declare myself no longer a member.
 As a non-member, I demand complete freedom from all religious practices, which include but are not limited to discipline and retaliation. Examples of such religious practices may include a formal announcement of my non-member status before the [named] Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, shunning, intentional infliction of emotional distress, harassment, slander, invasion of privacy, etc. Should you engage in any such conduct towards me, I will immediately and fully utilize all legal means to stop those acts. Any and all of the above-named parties may be held jointly and severally responsible.
 Please refer to the following:
· Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church
· Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville
· Hadnot v. Shaw
· McNair v. Worldwide Church of God
Furthermore, I request immediate, complete, and permanent cessation from all contact from church elders, ministerial servants, circuit overseers or any other member appointed to a position of authority in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This includes, but is not limited to mail, electronic communications, telephone and in-person visits taking place at my residence (address noted above), workplace, or elsewhere.
Please be aware that I will consider any in-person visits by appointed men on private property henceforth to be trespassing, and should that occur, I will utilize all legal means to stop that act, including but not limited to civil and criminal complaints. Personal social approach in public is always welcomed and appreciated. I have no quarrel with individual members of the congregation, but again, I do not want to be further burdened by coercion from these organizations’ appointed authorities acting in that capacity.
 Thank you in advance for respecting my right to freedom from religion.
 Signed,
Sail Away
[insert notary stamp and signature, if you're using one]
 +5 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 6 months ago
That's telling them Sail Away!
 +2 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 6 months ago

It's a done deal. I signed my letters today, and my attorney is mailing them by Certified Mail Return Receipt Requested together with his cover letter which states:
The Body of Elders of the (named) Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses
c/o (named elder), Congregation Secretary
Address


RE: RESIGNATION-SAIL AWAY


Dear Mr. (named elder):


I represent Sail Away of (home town). She has expressed her intention to resign as a member of the Jehovah’s Witness Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, et al, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, et al, the (named) Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the (named sister) Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Her letter of resignation is enclosed.


My client has asked me to inform you in no uncertain terms that she does not want to be contacted by any member of your congregation or your organization acting in an official capacity on behalf of an elder, the congregation, or the church. Her letter clearly states her wishes in this regard. Therefore, members of your organization should not attempt to contact her. Please understand that I will commence legal action or pursue other legal recourse without further notice if you or any member, church elder or other member of your church acting for your congregation contact, harass, threaten or intimidate my client in any way.


You or your legal representative may contact me if you have any questions whatsoever.


Very truly yours,






(My attorney who was flabbergasted by my description of the shunning process and the cult-like nature of the organization and who would not accept payment for writing this letter)


 +7 / -0

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Topic Summary
after listening to the hearings of the australian royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, i am no longer content to have simply walked away from the organization.
as a matter of conscience, i do not want my name linked with the organization in any way.
i know this letter has been posted previously, and i thank the author.



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As a Matter of Conscience, I Am Resigning from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
by Sail Away 7 months ago 65 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 6 months ago
Comgrats! Another sheep broke the pen, ran away and learned how awesome life was without a sheep dog bullying it! Essentially you've graduated to a gazelle.
 +2 / -0
gda
gda 6 months ago

Don't I wish there was a landslide repercussion from the RC's investigating Borg member and response? Not to mention (“I do not answer to Watchtower” – Stunning Gerrit Lösch declaration revealed )
 +2 / -0
Crisis of Conscience
Crisis of Conscience 5 months ago

This is an awesome thread.
Thanks for sharing Sail Away!
 +1 / -0
kairos
kairos 5 months ago

I wish I did this.
So much more fun than the way I did it...
Has anyone contacted you?
 +1 / -0
maksutov
maksutov 5 months ago
Nice. I hope they respect your wishes SailAway, although I would not be at all surprised if they still make an announcement that you are no longer a member. That's great that the solicitor didn't charge you! I got a solicitor to write a similar letter when I was being harrassed by elders 5 years ago, and it cost me £250 for just the one letter (which had no effect, other than to mean that they made an announcement that I was no longer a JW without telling me - they would've told me if I hadn't sent the letter apparently).

 +1 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 5 months ago

At this point, I honestly don't think they announced anything. I didn't really fade. I simply walked away over four years ago and have had nothing other than brief, casual contact with the locals when I am out and about. I think the elders decided to let sleeping dogs lie.
Yesterday, a 30-year JW 'friend' called me to catch up. She is a total gossip. If any rank and file member knew, it would be her. We made plans to cook some organic, healing foods together. She just got back from a stay at the Kushi Institute in New York City. She vacillates between exploring her interests and talents and pioneering-- major cognitive dissonance there.
There is one particular congregation member that I see fairly frequently. She will be the litmus test as she is in one of the congregations I sent the letters to. I will keep you all posted.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
after listening to the hearings of the australian royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, i am no longer content to have simply walked away from the organization.
as a matter of conscience, i do not want my name linked with the organization in any way.
i know this letter has been posted previously, and i thank the author.



Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Another Trey Bundy Article on Reveal: "Jehovah’s Witnesses leaders say they don’t protect sexual abusers"
by AndersonsInfo 3 months ago
KiddingMe
Police: Teen killed in N.Y. church assault wanted out
by KiddingMe 5 months ago
wifibandit
Polish BOE Re: Legal matters and revised charter for Poland
by wifibandit 4 months ago



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Amish shunning is central to Ohio hate crime trial - JWs mentioned
by AndersonsInfo 3 years ago 6 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 3 years ago


Amish shunning is central to Ohio hate crime trialhttp://www.fox5vegas.com/story/19552144/amish-shunning-is-central-to-ohio-hate-crime-trial Amish shunning is central to Ohio hate crime trial Fox5 KVVU · 4 minutes ago Posted: Sep 15, 2012 12:27 PM EDT Updated: Sep 15, 2012 12:27 PM EDT
By JOHN SEEWER
Associated Press
CLEVELAND (AP) - In the stern, self-regulating world of the Amish, those who act out time and again by wearing the wrong clothing, going to movies or otherwise flaunting the church's doctrine can find themselves utterly alone.
Fellow Amish in rare instances won't break bread with them at the same table, won't work with them and won't worship with them under the religion's centuries-old practice of shunning. In stricter settlements, shunning can break apart families, cutting off all contact between parents and their children.
Saloma Furlong was shunned, or ex-communicated, after she left her church the first time over a family issue, and she was barred from attending her cousin's wedding when she returned home. "It was a very lonely two weeks," said Furlong, who eventually left behind her home in northeast Ohio for good and was permanently shunned.
The Amish take the tradition so seriously that most churches won't accept someone who has been shunned until they make it right with those who've disciplined them.
At the root of Amish hair-cutting attacks in Ohio and the federal hate crime trial that followed, prosecutors say, was a dispute over religious differences and a decision by Amish bishops to overrule the leader of a breakaway group who had shunned his former followers. Amish scholars say taking away a bishop's edict was unheard of and stunned communities far and wide.
Six years ago, about 300 Amish bishops gathered in Pennsylvania to discuss the group's leader, Sam Mullet Sr., who had ordered the shunning of families that left his settlement near the West Virginia panhandle.
Mullet had come to the attention of the bishops because, according to witnesses at his trial, there were concerns he was brain-washing community members. Prosecutors would later say he forced men to sleep in chicken coops as punishment, and one woman testified that Mullet coerced women at his settlement into having sex with him so he could turn them into better wives.
The bishops eventually vetoed Mullet's shunning of the others, infuriating him to the point that he sought revenge last fall in a series of five hair-cutting attacks, prosecutors say.
They charged Mullet and 15 of his followers with hate crimes because they contend they acted over religious differences and targeted the hair and beards of the Amish because of its spiritual significance in the faith. All could face lengthy prison terms if convicted on the charges that also include conspiracy and obstructing justice.
Jurors began deliberating in the trial Thursday morning.
None of the defendants has denied that the hair-cuttings took place, but Mullet has insisted that he didn't plan what happened. In an interview last fall, he defended what he thinks is his right to punish people who break church laws.
Shunning - also known as avoidance -is a rare happening in the Amish community. While outsiders might view it as punishment, the Amish consider it an act of love to help those who have strayed from their beliefs.
Each individual church decides when to shun others and what kind of punishment they face. "It's not like there's a rulebook," said Steve Nolt, a history professor at Goshen College in Indiana.
Only baptized church members can be shunned. And it almost always starts with a warning to stop breaking church rules - whether it's to quit drinking or stop talking on the telephone - and weeks or months of discussion.
"Shunning is something the individual does to themselves," said Karen Johnson-Weiner, a professor at the State University of New York in Potsdam who has written extensively about the Amish. "It's community-wide tough love."
There also has to be agreement within the congregation, but the bishop has the most influence in revoking someone's church membership.
"That's a hard thing for a bishop to do," said Andy Hershberger, who testified in the trial that Mullet's son was among a group that cut his father's hair last fall. His father was one of the bishops who overruled Mullet's shunning order.
Furlong, who left her home church for good after a dispute with a bishop, said shunning gives Amish leaders too much control. "They can use it like a hammer," she said.
Because the Amish identify so closely with their faith, being shunned and faced with the loss of their salvation is extremely painful.
"It's such an intense thing. Nobody can really explain it," said Furlong, who wrote a book called "Why I Left the Amish" in 2011. "That's a pretty tough thing to reckon with."
Matthew Schrock, who left Holmes County's Amish community in Ohio during the mid-1990s, wasn't formally shunned, but no one would hire him because he was fighting with his father, who was the bishop. "There were a lot of people who wouldn't talk to me," he said. "No one was willing to risk the appearance of them siding with me."
Shunning has its roots in biblical teachings and is used in some Mennonite churches as well. Jehovah's Witnesses also practice a form of shunning. But it's essential to Amish beliefs.
"They want the person to see their error," Schrock said. "But under that, I think, is this desire to maintain the integrity of the group."
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Correspondent: John Seewer jseewer@ap.org Please write this AP reporter about your experience with JW shunning
 
blondie
blondie 3 years ago

I hope that those accusations about sexually manipulating the women in this group are investigated thoroughly.
Do all Amish groups work under the same edicts, rules.
http://amishamerica.com/how-many-types-of-amish-are-there/
 
Refriedtruth
Refriedtruth 3 years ago

Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to avoid and shun those who simply want to leave the organization, called dissasociating. See Watchtower April 15, 1988 page 26-28
You cannot leave without being shunned. If you are in for 3 generations like my family, you will loose all your friends and family in one single day! And you will be hated by those still in the organization. Anyone who does not accept the organization as the ONLY way to God is hated See WT Oct 1, 1993 page 19 Disfellowshipping isn't to be found in the Bible. Even checking the scripture/word index in their own NWT JW Bible reveals this. The Scriptures that they do twist/apply (not to say a greeting) have to do with shunning the ANTI-Christ The nearest I can see to their Dfing practice it is the trial of Jesus. The shunning practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses is a shame device cult control tactic and the entire family is cut-off.
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 3 years ago

Each community follows thier bishops. Some communities are more liberal than others. I think a lot depends on the personality of their bishop.
These people probably figured that their victims wouldn't be getting the 'english' all involved in their religious and community affairs. But they did---and it looks pretty bad for them. Sounds like that bishop was indeed turning his community into a cult --- well moreso than how we may already identify them as such. Sounds like this was a brutal and dark time with this man in the lead.
 
blondie
blondie 3 years ago

A precise number of Old Order Amish groups is difficult to pinpoint

amish typesThere is much diversity in Old Order Amish society. Old Order Amish themselves are distinct from Mennonite churches, as well as Beachy Amish churches, groups that typically accept higher levels of technology, Sunday School, and adhere less strictly to certain tenets of the Dordrecht Confession.
The question of how many Old Order Amish (those that drive the horse-and-buggy, speak Pennsylvania German, dress Plain, and adhere to the Dordrecht Confession) groups there are remains a difficult one to answer, for a number of reasons.
Amish church organization
Amish organize themselves into affiliations, meaning groups of churches that hold similar standards and that dien together, also known as being in fellowship, a relationship which means that churches will exchange ministers for preaching, permit marriages across church districts, and cooperate in other ways.
amish clothing style
Amish groups may be distinguished by style of clothing or hair
The various affiliations existent today are a result of an at-times painful history of division. While common beliefs in principles such as non-resistance and adult baptism (outlined in the seminal document the Dordrecht Confession) unite the Amish, at times Amish have disagreed over the proper manifestation of a Christian faith in other arenas.
Amish adhere to rules known as the Ordnung. Submission to the Ordnung, which outlines everything from style of dress to permissible technologies, is seen as a demonstration of an individual’s humility, submission, and desire for unity with a brotherhood of like-minded believers.
Straying from the Ordnung, for example by acquiring forbidden technology or altering one’s dress, may seem an inconsequential act, but one which Amish see as symbolic of rejecting core values of submission and humility.
Thus, seemingly arbitrary differences such as one’s approach to technology, dress, or more serious issues such as interpretation of the doctrine of social shunning have resulted in division among churches in the past, and a wide range of manifestations of Old Order Amish Christianity today.
For example, the Andy Weaver Amish are a group that separated from the larger Old Order Amish body in Holmes County, Ohio, in the 1950′s. The primary issue was disagreement over the application of social shunning–with the individuals and churches which eventually formed the Andy Weaver affiliation opting for a more strict interpretation of shunning.
Amish affiliations
It is difficult to estimate a precise number of affiliations, as terms of fellowship can change, and Amish which seemingly are similar to one another in practice may not fellowship with one another.
The Amish community at Big Valley in Pennsylvania is home to three distinct affiliations, each easily distinguished by the color of the buggy—The Renno Amish with black-topped buggies, the Byler Amish with yellow tops, and the Nebraska Amish with white tops. But even within the Nebraska Amish there exist divisions, with four or five different groups among the Nebraska people.
amish group
Amish mark identity in various ways
The Amish settlement at Holmes County, Ohio has been estimated to contain eleven distinct affiliations. Some are quite alike, such as three branches of Swartzentruber Amish, all of whom claim to be the true representation of the Swartzentruber Amish (and overall Amish, for that matter). Between others there exists quite a gap, such as that between any of the Swartzentruber affiliations, and the Old Order or New Order affiliations, both of which are much more progressive in terms of technology accepted and even in worldview.
Amish groups which fellowship may differ in key ways
Some Amish may be in fellowship with one another, but seem unalike in key ways. For example, the Andy Weaver Amish of Holmes County, an affiliation considered more conservative in terms of technology than the mainstream Old Order group, is in fellowship with the Amish of Lancaster County, but not with the Old Orders in their own community.
Ohio Andy Weaver Amish and Lancaster Amish share a similar interpretation of social shunning (both believe in a strict application of shunning), but differ in buggy color (black for Andy Weaver, gray-topped for Lancaster) and more importantly, approach to technology (Lancaster Amish accept a significantly higher degree of technology). So even with fellowshipping groups, it is possible to notice obvious differences in cultural practice.
lancaster amish church
Lancaster Amish fellowship with the Andy Weaver Amish of Holmes County
Additionally, Amish groups may fall out of fellowship with one another over issues such as acceptance of technology in one group, or changing attitudes to the application of shunning. Thus, a given church’s fellowship status can change.
Amish organize themselves into church districts, each with its own leadership, and the ability to formulate its own Ordnung. While the Ordnungs of districts may be quite similar or even identical to one another, even within the same community—or affiliation—specifics of Ordnung may vary.
For example, the 130-plus Amish church districts of the Elkhart-Lagrange settlement in northern Indiana are all in fellowship with one another, even though significant differences in Ordnung with regards to technology exist between individual churches. Amish in some districts, for example, permit gas engine lawnmowers, while those in others only allow push-style mowers.
So, how many flavors of Amish are there after all?
Thus, the question of “how many different kinds of Amish are there” is a difficult one to answer. All Amish under the Old Order umbrella (encompassing Amish manifestations from the highly conservative Swartzentruber and Nebraska Amish groups to the progressive New Order Amish) share common beliefs in non-resistance, the practice of footwashing, adult baptism, and others.
Answering this question would take examining the different Amish affiliations, and even down to the level of individual church districts. And due to the changing nature of Amish society, the answer to this question is one likely to change.
For further information, see:
“Who Are the Real Amish?: Rethinking Diversity and Identity among a Separate People”, Steven M. Nolt, Mennonite Quarterly Review, July 2008
An Amish Paradox: Diversity and Change in the World’s Largest Amish Community, Charles E. Hurst and David L. McConnell
“Plotting Social Change Across Four Affiliations”, Donald B. Kraybill, The Amish Struggle with Modernity
Amish Online Encyclopedia: How are Amish communities organized?
 
rip van winkle
rip van winkle 3 years ago

Shunning is the antithesis of LOVE.
 
Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

I liked this discussion about amish.

Scott77
 

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Personal Story - How a cult got me out of a cult
by CitizenRain 5 years ago 15 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw experiences
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CitizenRain
CitizenRain 5 years ago

Hello,

I used to be a bit more active in the community over on the Yuku board (I recognize some of you from over there) but have lost touch. I've been lurking this board for about 3 years now and finally decided to jump in and post, and share my similar but still unique story of how I went from being a born-in true believer to a full blown apostate.

First off, let me introduce myself. My name is Dan and I am 27 years old and currently live/work in Seattle, WA USA. I was raised a 3rd generation JW, my grandparents on my dad's side joining in 1967-68, at the height of the 1975 frenzy. My grandmother was a german national with no grasp of english who had a baby by a Soldier (my granddad), which got her a free pass to the US, after a "shotgun" wedding. Once my grandfather left the military, they moved to Buena Park, CA where my grandma was befriended by Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know for certain, but I get the feeling she initially intended to use her Bible Study to work on her grasp of English and because she was lonely. She was baptised sometime in 68 and my Grandpa joined in 70-71, when he was finally able to quit smoking.

Maternally, my grandparents were hill folk with lots of kids and honestly, are a bit hard to pigeonhole. What is obvious is they used "the truth" as a tool. It got them off the hook from having to provide education for their kids (armageddon is coming any day!) and got them out of holding holiday celebrations where they'd have to spend money on the family. They moved alot (my mom alone went to something like 7 different Highschools), moving when their worldly behavior would get exposed at the congregation, then going to feed off of a new one. They were "around" the watchtower for years but only applied themselves to it loosely until all their kids were grown, putting on their kingdom hall face and then doing whatever they wanted at home, smoking for years after it was banned, cheating on eachother, etc. The oral history of what that period of time was like for that family is really hard to weigh, as much of it is speculative. They were both known for being less than truthful and for rewriting the ugly bits of their history. Most of their kids went on to become true, zealous WT believers.
So there is my JW 'patronage', what I know of it at least. I grew up in the northern central part of Ohio, full of farmland, rolling hills, Amish, Mennonite and many other proud christian denominations, their churches seemingly outnumbering houses in some towns. We moved around alot, due to either work or issues with a certain elder or elders in one of the congregations we went to. My folks were subjected to some really terrible things by the elders over time.
My earliest memories of going to the meetings were from Loudonville, OH, a sleepy little town of about 5,000 (then, now? who knows). I remember there was no sound system, no AC, about 40 members total and a BOE that consisted of 2, One evil weasel of a man with lots of ambition and an extreme sense of spiritual entitlement (he always bragged that his family was one of the "Founding Families" of the Watchtower. I remember this even though I was 5) and his yes man who lived in his guesthouse. There were no kids under 14 in the hall. We had a 19 year old in the congregation who went to Bethel (his name was Brian, thats all I remember. He played piano for the Hall) and that started me down the road of Hero worship, I wanted to go to Bethel too! He was getting so much attention and my mom mailed him our letters (my brother and I) every week. He only lasted there 6-8 months and was never the same again when he came back, his meeting attendance becoming less and less until he was never there at all by the time we left that hall. I have to think the experience must've woken him up, then, it was heartbreaking as a kid, now his plight I can appreciate as an adult. I gave my first meeting answer there and my first talk. I remember my 2nd talk ever, one of the old brothers in front of me had a seizure and fell back on top of me, not 30 seconds before I had to get on the platform. All I can remember is the sound of my knees knocking together because I was so scared, trying not to mess up Exodus too badly haha :smile:

Eventually we left the 2 elder show for the big congregation in Wooster, which was experiencing a youth movement. I had to have been about 8 or 9 by this time. The elders here had all these kids and they had made it their mission to baptise all of them. I made friends, did horribly in school (my mom constantly waffled back and forth on Homeschooling vs Public School) and went through the questions for baptism the first time when I was 9 and didn't pass. It didn't slow me down for long though, I just had to get baptised! (all my friends, older than I was were being dunked). With my parents blessing, I went through the questions again when I was 10 and was baptised at that age on June 15th, 1994 at the Cleveland Convocation Center.

Life kinda all blends together after that. Things weren't terrible. lots of playing outside, aux pioneering with my mom in the summers, my dad working his tail off to keep the family afloat. Work dried up for him in Ohio and the family was forced to look elsewhere. On a whim, my mom applied for a job on behalf of my dad in Redmond, WA , and when I was 14 years old we moved across the country to start a new life. Things went horribly, horribly wrong.

Sorry! Only have enough time right now for the first part. I'll get the 2nd part out tomorrow :smile: Nice to meet you all!
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 5 years ago

Welcome! Glad to have you.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Welcome to the board, Citizen Rain!! I like your on-board 'handle'!!
Zid the She-Devil
 
Think About It
Think About It 5 years ago

Welcome to the board.  Like your story so far.  Look forward to part 2.

Think About It
 
SweetBabyCheezits
SweetBabyCheezits 5 years ago

Welcome to JWN! Now let me tell you about my god.
Kidding, that's a Godrulz joke. We're glad you're contributing to the forum, CR, and looking forward to the rest of your bio! Get on it!
 
cult classic
cult classic 5 years ago

Great intro CitzenR. Can't wait for part II.
Welcome
 
Quandry
Quandry 5 years ago

Welcome.
Very interesting so far. Can't wait for part two.
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 5 years ago

Welcome to JWN. Wooster is probably about an hour from me. Can't wait for part two of your story!!!!!!
 
mummatron
mummatron 5 years ago

Hi! *waves*
 
life is to short
life is to short 5 years ago

Welcome
Looking forward to part two.
LITS
 
Violia
Violia 5 years ago

great read, looking forward to part 2
 
Joliette
Joliette 5 years ago

Welcome new friend :wink:
 
flipper
flipper 5 years ago

CITIZEN RAIN- Certainly nice to have you here ! Thanks for sharing your story. Look forward to the rest ! Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 
umadevi
umadevi 5 years ago

Welcome to JWN!
 
aSphereisnotaCircle
aSphereisnotaCircle 5 years ago

Welcome!
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 5 years ago

Welcome Citizen! I KNOW that Loudenville hall. Last I knew, it was still very tiny. I'll be looking for part 2!
NC
 

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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-23-2011 WT Study (PURSUE PEACE)
by blondie 4 years ago 17 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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blondie
blondie 4 years ago

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-23-11 WT Study (AUGUST 15, 2011, pages 27-31)(PURSUE PEACE)

Review comments will be headed by COMMENTS
WT material from today's WT will be in black
Quotes from other sources will headed by QUOTES
w = Watchtower
g = Awake
jv = Proclaimers book

EXCELLENT GENERAL WEBSITE : www.jwfacts.com

Bible translations www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible
WT publications www.strictlygenteel.co.uk
WT child abuse www.silentlambs.org
Blood issue www.ajwrb.org
United Nations http://www.randytv.com/secret/unitednations.htm

Also posted on

http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com
www.jehovahs-witness.net
http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/

PURSUE PEACE
“Let us pursue the things making for peace.”—ROM. 14:19.

OPENING COMMENTS

Are jws peaceful between families and individuals in their own congregations; between congregations?

If love is being shown (the signal quality Jesus said his followers would show), would not peace follow?

START OF ARTICLE

1, 2. Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses enjoy peace
among themselves?

TRUE peace is hard to find in today’s
world. Even people belonging to the
same national group and speaking the same
language are often divided religiously, politically,
and socially. By contrast, Jehovah’s
people are united despite the fact that they
have come out of “all nations and tribes and
peoples and tongues.”—Rev. 7:9.

COMMENTS

The WTS makes it clear that they alone are united and peaceful—Jehovah’s people but no mention of Christians which is what first century followers of Jesus were called.

Yet, jws are taught to hate non-jws and ex-jws.

2 The peaceful condition that generally exists
among us is no accident. It has come
about primarily because we “enjoy peace
with God” through our faith in his Son,
whose shed blood covers our sins. (Rom. 5:1;
Eph. 1:7) Moreover, the true God gives holy
spirit to his loyal servants, and the fruitage of
that spirit includes peace. (Gal. 5:22) Another
reason for our peaceful unity is that we are
“no part of the world.” (John 15:19) Rather
than taking sides in political issues, we remain
neutral. Having ‘beaten our swords
into plowshares,’ we do not get involved in
civil or international wars.—Isa. 2:4.

COMMENTS

“his loyal servants” = only jws (all other people are disloyal to God)

God only gives holy spirit to jws, but only certain jws, anointed, but not all anointed

Peace with God = what about peace with Jesus?

Are only jws neutral? Amish, Mennonite, Quaker, Buddhists…

Are jws politically neutral---NGO UN
What is your opinion of this political involvement?
Click on the link provided below and scroll down to numbers 102, 103, 248, and 314 in the blue boxes to the left of the organization's name. http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2006…
What does the Watchtower say about "political" involvement?
Watchtower-1985-March-1st-pg.13-pr.5
"False religion’s involvement in the affairs of the political nations will lead ultimately to her own devastation." Revelation 17:16, 17
Here is a link that shows the activities of the OSCE: http://www.osce.org/odihr/13421.html

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/125201/1/JWs-in-world-politics-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Are-Politically-Neutral-NOT

3. What does the peace we can enjoy make possible,
and what will be discussed in this article?

3 The peace we can enjoy with one another
goes deeper than merely refraining from
doing harm to our brothers. Although the
congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses that
we belong to may be made up of individuals
from many different ethnic groups and cultures,
we “love one another.” (John 15:17)
Our peace allows us to “work what is good
toward all, but especially toward those related
to us in the faith.” (Gal. 6:10) Our peaceful
spiritual paradise is something to be treasured
and safeguarded. Let us, therefore,
examine how we may pursue peace within
the congregation.

COMMENTS

Refraining from doing harm to our brothers (but you can harm sisters)

Jws but no mention of Christ(ians)

How do they love one another?

Peace inside and outside congregations—no fights, no arguments between elders, no arguments between congregations, judging each other, as deserving

When We Stumble

4. What can we do to pursue peace when we have offended someone?

4 “We all stumble many times,” wrote the
disciple James. “If anyone does not stumble
in word, this one is a perfect man.” (Jas. 3:2)
Hence, differences and misunderstandings
between fellow believers are bound to arise.
(Phil. 4:2, 3) However, problems between individuals
can be solved without disturbing
the peace of the congregation. For example,
consider the counsel we should apply if we
realize that we may have offended someone.
—Read Matthew 5:23, 24.

COMMENTS

Not perfect, stumble many times….accidentally or purposely?

Jws are told to ignore problems to make “peace”
How to handle fraud, sexual abuse, etc.

What if someone comes and tells you that you did something serious but not a df offense, is it just hurt feelings

For example, consider the counsel we should apply if we
realize that we may have offended someone.
—Read Matthew 5:23, 24.

Why is this “suggestion” not given here? Who apologizes, the one who is seen as offended, or the one who was offended?

***w06 6/1 p. 11 ***
For us to keep peace, it may sometimes be wise to “give back” by apologizing, even if we are not convinced that we are in the wrong.

*** w02 11/1 p.6***
Peace among fellow believers is more important than proving who is right and who is wrong. Keeping this principle in mind makes it easier to apologize for a wrong that someone thinks we have committed against him or her.

***w96 9/15 p. 22 ***
Though we may not feel that we have done anything wrong , an apology may resolve a misunderstanding.

5. How may we pursue peace when we have been
wronged?

5 What if we have been wronged in some
small way? Should we expect the offender to
come to us and apologize? “[Love] does not
keep account of the injury,” states
1 Corinthians 13:5. When offended, we pursue
peace by forgiving and forgetting, that is, by
‘not keeping account of the injury.’ (Read
Colossians 3:13.) Minor transgressions in
day-to-day life are best handled in this way,
for this contributes to a peaceful relationship
with fellow worshippers and gives us peace
of mind. A wise proverb states: “It is beauty
. . . to pass over transgression.”—Prov.19:11.

COMMENTS

Fellow worshippers = only jws

“wronged in some SMALL way”
“MINOR transgressions”

What is small, what is minor? Who decides, the elders, the one hurt, the one supposedly doing the hurt?

Yet elders will come to the one who did not offend at all, sent by someone who has an easily hurt ego, and have them apologize because the elders lack the courage to counsel the one who takes offense easily. I found in many cases it was the elder’s wife who was “offended” who could or would not approach the person as in Matthew 18.

***w02 11/1 p. 6 Apologizing—A Key to Making Peace ***
The issue is, not so much who is right and who is wrong, but who will take the initiative to make peace… .he corrected them: “Why do you not rather let yourselves be wronged? Why do you not rather let yourselves be defrauded?” (1 Corinthians 6:7) Although Paul said this to discourage fellow Christians from airing their personal differences in secular courts, the principle is clear: Peace among fellow believers is more important than proving who is right and who is wrong.

Does this mean that elders are not concerned about founding out who is right or wrong? Or that God is not interested is seeing the person in the wrong, confess and turn around? Why then are individual Christians not afforded the same?

Was Paul talking about disagreements within the congregation or outside? He wanted them to maintain an appearance of getting along to non-believers? But inside the congregation, were the elders to allow other members to rip off the other?

Did Paul avoid a public confrontation with Peter when he was shunning Gentile Christians? Was he worried about the peace in the congregation?

(Galatians 2:11-14) . . .However, when Ce′phas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before the arrival of certain men from James, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he went withdrawing and separating himself, in fear of those of the circumcised class. 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Bar′na·bas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Ce′phas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”

6. What should we do if it is too difficult for us to
overlook an offense committed against us?

6 What if we find that a certain offense is
too difficult for us to overlook? Spreading the
matter to as many ears as are willing to hear is
certainly not the course of wisdom. Such
gossip serves only to disrupt the peace of the
congregation. What should be done to resolve
the matter peacefully? Matthew 18:15
states: “If your brother commits a sin, go lay
bare his fault between you and him alone. If
he listens to you, you have gained your
brother.” While Matthew 18:15-17 applies to
sin of a serious nature, in the spirit of the
principle stated in verse 15, we should kindly
approach the offender privately and try to restore
a peaceful relationship with him.*

* For Scriptural guidance in dealing with such serious
sins as slander and fraud, see The Watchtower, October
15, 1999, pages 17-22.

COMMENTS

I found that those who “spread the matter” were elders and their wives who had first hand knowledge and many times were one of the parties in the dispute. The elders would discuss it with other elders leaving out the “names” doing so even with elders in other congregations. Wives would share it with their “best friend” of which they had several and to entertain, perhaps hurt someone they didn’t life anyway, and to show the other sisters how special this elder’s wife was.

How many times were you approached by an elder telling you that someone had a problem with something the other person said you did. An elder who had not even heard what you had to say about the matter but had already found you guilty. And then when you said you would talk to the person as Matthew 18 recommends, the elder would not tell you who the person was and would not even hear what you had to say? What kind of peace would that develop between you, the elder, and the third party?

7. Why should we be quick to settle disputes?

7 The apostle Paul wrote: “Be wrathful, and
yet do not sin; let the sun not set with you in
a provoked state, neither allow place for the
Devil.” (Eph. 4:26, 27) “Be about settling
matters quickly with the one complaining
against you at law,” said Jesus. (Matt. 5:25)
Pursuing peace, then, calls for settling difficulties
quickly. Why? Because doing so prevents
differences from festering like an untreated,
infected wound. Let us not allow
pride, envy, or the attaching of too much importance
to material things prevent us from resolving disputes soon after
they arise.—Jas. 4:1-6.

COMMENTS

I can remember learning secondhand that someone was upset with me and had stopped talking to me. When I approached them, they refused to discuss it with me but had no problem spreading it through the congregation. When I involved the elders, the person said I was mistaken, there was no problem as they continued their hateful lies. Did this fester; not in me. I figured that my actions would speak louder than their lies. This person went on to treat others the same way and finally the culprit was identified. But not until much hurt was caused for many.

When I was younger, there were 2 elder families that sat on opposite sides of the hall. I went to that congregation for 10 years and never saw the wives ever talk to each other or even look at each other. Imagine the energy that took, wasted energy.

When a Controversy Involves Many

8, 9. (a) What differences of viewpoint existed in
the first-century congregation in Rome? (b) What
counsel did Paul give Roman Christians regarding
their dispute?

8 Sometimes differences in the congregation
involve not just two people but many
individuals. That was the case with Christians
in Rome to whom the apostle Paul
wrote an inspired letter. There was a dispute
among Jewish and Gentile Christians. Certain
ones in that congregation were evidently
looking down on those whose consciences
were weak, or overly restrictive.
Such individuals were improperly judging
others on purely personal matters. What advice
did Paul give the congregation?—Rom.
14:1-6.

COMMENTS

I can remember 2 congregations that shared a building. For whatever reason, the second one always had the Watchtower study Sunday afternoon, breaking up their day considerably. The first congregation had been formed first and felt they had first dibs every year rather than rotating every year or letting a vote be taken. As I would leave the meeting (and others) the jws coming in for the afternoon meeting would snipe at us and frown. That lasted for 10 years until a new CO came in and asked why they weren’t rotating. He put the elders in the first congregation in their place and we found ourselves going to afternoon meetings (with quite a few complaining jws from the 1 st congregation).

Isn’t the phrase “whose consciences were weak, or overly restrictive” improperly judging others? Is there such thing as a “purely personal matter” in the WTS where people tell you no beards, white shirts only allowed, determine whether your hair is too short or too long, etc.?

http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/things-jehovahs-witnesses-cant-do.php

9 Paul counseled individuals on both sides
of the dispute. He told those who understood
that they were not under the Mosaic
Law not to look down on their brothers.
(Rom.14:2, 10) Such an attitude could stumble
believers who still found it repulsive to
eat things that were not permitted under the
Law. “Stop tearing down the work of God
just for the sake of food,” Paul admonished
them. “It is well not to eat flesh or to drink
wine or do anything over which your brother
stumbles.” (Rom.14:14, 15, 20, 21) On the
other hand, Paul counseled Christians who
had more restrictive consciences not to be
judging as unfaithful those who held a
broader viewpoint. (Rom. 14:13) He told
‘everyone there among them not to think
more of himself than it was necessary to
think.’ (Rom. 12:3) Having counseled both
sides in this dispute, Paul wrote: “So, then,
let us pursue the things making for peace
and the things that are upbuilding to one
another.”—Rom.14:19.

COMMENTS

If jws are not under the Mosaic law, why does the WTS refer more often to people like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Jehu, Isaiah, etc., than people in the first century? How many times are WT doctrines based on the Law than on what Jesus said and did?

Paul counseled Christians not to live their lives based on the Law that Jesus’ words were sufficient. How often have you or were you told to follow a rule made by the elder body? And found that the congregation across town did not? In this area, one congregation made it a rule that all elders and MS could not have mustaches. Another one realize there was not scriptural reason for that and allowed the brothers to wear mustaches. Several elders/MS in the first congregation changed congregations and kept their mustaches. The elder bodies had a feud going for years and the first congregation was one that demanded white shirts on speakers until just 8 years ago…the last one in the circuit to end it.

Were they pursuing the things making for peace?

10. As with the first-century congregation in Rome,
what is needed to resolve differences today?

10 We can be sure that the congregation in
Rome responded well to Paul’s counsel and
made the necessary adjustments. When differences
among fellow Christians occur today,
should we not likewise settle disputes
graciously by humbly seeking and applying
Scriptural counsel? As was the case with the
Romans, today those on both sides of the
controversy may need to make adjustments
in order to “keep peace between one another.”—
Mark 9:50.

COMMENTS

Did disputes end? What about Euodia and Syntyche; what about Paul and Barnabas; what about Paul and Peter, or the ones preaching there had been no resurrection (1 Cor. 5:12),

The worst examples of not humbly seeking and applying Scriptural counsel are the elders, the COs, the DOs.

I never once heard an elder sincerely apologize for something hurtful he said or did, never. I have heard elders apologize for other elders…………

Jehovah loves those who freely forgive others

When Called Upon to Help

11. What care should an elder exercise if a Christian
wants to talk to him about a dispute with a fellow
believer?

11 What if a Christian wants to talk to an elder
about a problem he or she is having with
a relative or with a fellow believer? Proverbs
21:13 states: “Anyone stopping up his ear
from the complaining cry of the lowly one,
he himself also will call and not be answered.”
An elder would certainly not ‘stop
up his ear.’ However, another proverb warns:
“The first to state his case seems right, until
his opponent begins to cross-examine him.”
(Prov. 18:17, New English Translation) An elder
should listen kindly, but he needs to be
careful not to take sides with the one reporting
the offense. After listening to the matter,
he would likely ask whether the offended
party has spoken to the one who caused the
upset. The elder may also review Scriptural
steps that the offended one can take to pursue
peace.

COMMENTS

Can a sister go directly to an elder if her husband is a baptized jw or must she go through her husband? What about a relative who is not a jw; can an elder insert himself into that? What if she has a non-jw husband; does that elder have any authority over that non-jw husband?

An elder SHOULD NOT stop up his ear; but many do; or they stick a new elder with the joyful job.

Notice the WTS has no problem here using a scripture from the New English Translation rather than the NWT.

Would the elder likely ask if they have spoken to the other person….more likely the elder will do it and refused to tell that person the name of the complainant.

How could the first person follow Matthew 18 if the elder will not reveal who has the complaint?

12. Cite examples showing the danger of acting
hastily after hearing a complaint.

12 Three Biblical examples underscore the
danger of acting hastily after hearing only
one side of a controversy. Potiphar believed
his wife’s story that Joseph had tried to
rape her. With unjustified anger, Potiphar
had Joseph thrown into prison. (Gen. 39:
19, 20) King David believed Ziba, who said
that his master, Mephibosheth, had sided
with David’s enemies. “Look! Yours is everything
that belongs to Mephibosheth” was
David’s hasty response. (2 Sam. 16:4; 19:25-
27) King Artaxerxes was told that the Jews
were rebuilding Jerusalem’s walls and were
about to rebel against the Persian Empire.
The king believed the false report and ordered
that all rebuilding in Jerusalem cease.
As a result, the Jews stopped work on God’s
temple. (Ezra 4:11-13, 23, 24) Christian elders
wisely follow Paul’s counsel to Timothy
to avoid making premature judgments.
—Read 1 Timothy 5:21.

COMMENTS

Three Biblical examples—ALL OT examples (of course jws are not under the Law, right?)

So David had holy spirit, why did he judge so quickly? Potiphar and Artaxerxes were not Jews so had no holy spirit to guide them, right? In all 3 cases, the one judged unfairly were at risk of losing their lives or livelihood.

Were you ever prematurely judged by the elders who refused to even listen to you because the other person was viewed as strong spiritually, or their good friend, or someone they were financially dependent on? Did the elders apologize when they found out the facts?

13, 14. (a) All of us have what limitations respecting
the disputes of others? (b) What help do elders
have in making correct judgments respecting fellow
believers?

13 Even when it seems that both sides of a
dispute have come to light, it is important to
realize that “if anyone thinks he has acquired
knowledge of something, he does not yet
know it just as he ought to know it.” (1 Cor. 8:2)
Do we really know all the details that
led up to the dispute? Can we fully understand
the backgrounds of the individuals involved?
When called upon to judge, how vital
it is that elders not let themselves be
deceived by falsehood, clever tactics, or rumors!
God’s appointed Judge, Jesus Christ,
judges righteously. He does not “judge by
any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove
simply according to the thing heard by his
ears.” (Isa. 11:3, 4) Rather, Jesus is guided
by Jehovah’s spirit. Christian elders likewise
have the benefit of being guided by God’s
holy spirit.

COMMENTS

Do the elders even want all the details, except for the sexual ones, of course. Where is the holy spirit if the elders can so easily be fooled by falsehood, clever tactics, or rumors?

If elders already have judged someone unworthy spiritually, that long hair proves guilt and short hair innocence, what justice is there? Under the Law, people who judged wrongly, they were subject to the same punishment or the person who stood before them in judgment.

According to the WTS, how are elders guided by holy spirit, remember that the WTS frequently excuses the elders for their errors in judging as being “imperfect men.”

14 Before they make judgments respecting
fellow believers, elders need to pray for the
help of Jehovah’s spirit and depend on its
guidance by consulting God’s Word and the
publications of the faithful and discreet slave
class.—Matt. 24:45.

COMMENTS

This is the most important scripture for the WTS because when there is no scriptural support otherwise, this general scripture and unproven if there is an FDS is the base of all other things.

"The faithful and discreet slave is not a legal entity."


Vincent Toole Solicitors then went on to present arguments that the "faithful and discreet slave" do not exist as a "person" nor do they exist as an "unincorporated body" and nor do they exist as a "body" of Christians.


Literally Vincent Toole Solicitors were arguing that the "faithful and discreet slave" should be struck off the charge list because they simply do not exist. In one broad sweeping statement the Watchtower Society and their in-house legal team completely destroyed the entire fabric and structure of the faith of some 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses. What next happened goes beyond the wildest imaginings that any Jehovah's Witness could ever believe was possible.


Steven Unthank stood up, looked around the courtroom, and then actually defended the "faithful and discreet slave" and the beliefs and doctrinal teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. No one else came to the defense of the FDS. Steven Unthank, as the current acting prosecutor, was the only person who defended them. Unthank then presented argument that the FDS was real and was that body of Jehovah's Witness Christians that had religious responsibility over the entire Christian congregation.


The Watchtower Society and Vincent Toole Solicitors then presented rebuttal argument that the "faithful and discreet slave" did not exist but were nothing more than a:-


"theological arrangement"


A massive gasp could be heard emanating from the gallery from amongst a group of Jehovah's Witnesses who had attended to watch the hearing. It is worth noting that Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that to deny the "faithful and discreet slave" is to deny the Christ and that those who deny the Christ are the antichrist.


The Watchtower Society and Vincent Toole Solicitors then turned on the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and denied that they existed or operated within Victoria and Australia. The magistrate did not accept this argument and, after seeking approval from Steven Unthank, adjourned all the court hearings for four weeks.


Simply put, the Watchtower Society and Vincent Toole Solicitors denied the existence of the "faithful and discreet slave" and denied the existence of the Christian congregation arrangement.  What is also interesting in the entire court case to date is that it was the Watchtower Society and their in-house lawyers that brought theology and religion into the court room.
It is possible that sometime in the future there could be a very serious courtroom hearing in which the whole existence of the "faithful and discreet slave" is argued but not in the way any Jehovah's Witness could imagine. Unless the WTS backs down, or the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses step in and defend their faith, then we could see Steven Unthank actually defending the existence of the FDS and the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses in open public court while the WTS and their lawyers, with the backing of the Governing Body, deny the existence of the FDS and maybe even the Christian congregation. And if such a courtroom drama ever unfolds, then at any given time Steven Unthank could back down and the FDS become no more than a never existing group of imaginary Christians who are really nothing more than a convenient "theological arrangement" whom Jehovah's Witnesses mistakenly believe exist and are their spiritual leaders who care about them.
The only party not represented was the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is logical from a self-preserving religious point of view, as to defend the charges would be to acknowledge each single charge as being a "valid charge of improper conduct." This would then disqualify each member from being an elder until the case was sorted out.
This failure on the part of the Governing Body to appear or to be represented was noticed by the Magistrate who took the unusual step of suggesting and recommending to Steven Unthank that criminal charges be brought against every single member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as opposed to the unincorporated body known as the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. The only thing that may actually prevent this from really happening is that Steven Unthank lacks the financial resources. Good thing the Crown stated in court its intention to take over the prosecution.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/217233/1/Victoria-Australia-Report-on-Oct-11th-hearing-involving-Steven-Unthank

Peace at Any Price?

15. When should we report a serious sin that we
have become aware of?

15 As Christians, we are exhorted to pursue
peace. However, the Bible also states: “The
wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then
peaceable.” (Jas. 3:17) Being peaceable is
secondary to chasteness, that is, upholding
God’s clean moral standards and meeting his
righteous requirements. If a Christian becomes
aware of a serious sin on the part of a
fellow believer, he should encourage that
one to confess the sin to the elders. (1 Cor. 6:
9, 10; Jas. 5:14-16) If the wrongdoer does not
do so, the Christian who has come to know
about the sin should report it. Failure to
do this in a mistaken effort to maintain
peace with the sinner makes one a party to
the wrongdoing.—Lev. 5:1; read Proverbs 29:24.

COMMENTS

Christians—only jws

Actually, the WTS says if a jw does not report this sin, they will be held liable and possibly df’d themselves. Is this the case when a member has committed pedophilia?

When elders do not report the pedophile to the secular authorities, are the party to the wrongdoing? Only if Caesar’s law in that area require it…

Note that Lev. 5:1 is part of the Mosaic law that Christians are not under. Shouldn’t confession to God be more important since elders cannot forgive sins?

16. What can we learn from Jehu’s encounter with
King Jehoram?

16 One account involving Jehu shows that
God’s righteousness takes priority over
peaceableness. God sent Jehu to execute His
judgment on the house of King Ahab. Wicked
King Jehoram, the son of Ahab and Jezebel,
rode in his chariot to meet Jehu and said:
“Is there peace, Jehu?” How did Jehu respond?
He replied: “What peace could there
be as long as there are the fornications of Jezebel
your mother and her many sorceries?”
(2 Ki. 9:22)With that, Jehu drew his bow and
shot Jehoram through the heart. Just as Jehu
took action, elders must not compromise
with willful, unrepentant practicers of sin
for the sake of keeping peace. They expel
unrepentant sinners so that the congregation
can continue to enjoy peace with God.
—1 Cor. 5:1, 2, 11-13.

COMMENTS

Jehu—king over the 10-tribe kingdom eventually. God must not been able to destroy the wrongdoers because he was forced to use Jehu to do it. Was Jehu interested in God’s righteousness or obtaining a kingship for himself and his descendants?

How righteous was Jehu? While he eradicated Baalism, what about the worship of the golden calves? Did God approve of that? Why wasn’t Jehu held accountable for false worship like the Baal worshippers? Is Jehu really a good example for elders today?

*** it-2 p.24 Jehu***
Rather, the key to the matter seems to lie in the statement that Jehu let calf worship continue in Israel and did not walk in the law of Jehovah with all his heart. Probably Jehu came to believe that independence from Judah could be maintained only through religious separation. Like other kings of Israel, he sought to secure his position by perpetuating calf worship. This was really an expression of lack of faith in Jehovah, who had made it possible for Jehu to become king.

(2 Kings 10:28-31) 28 Thus Je′hu annihilated Ba′al out of Israel. 29 It was only the sins of Jer·o·bo′am the son of Ne′bat, with which he caused Israel to sin, that Je′hu did not turn aside from following them, [that is,] the golden calves of which one was in Beth′el and one in Dan. 30 Consequently Jehovah said to Je′hu: “For the reason that you have acted well in doing what is right in my eyes, [and] according to all that was in my heart you have done to the house of A′hab, sons themselves to the fourth generation will sit for you upon the throne of Israel.” 31 And Je′hu himself did not take care to walk in the law of Jehovah the God of Israel with all his heart. He did not turn aside from the sins of Jer·o·bo′am with which he caused Israel to sin.

17. All Christians play what part in pursuing peace?

17 Most disputes between brothers do not
involve serious wrongdoing that requires judicial
action. How good it is, therefore, lovingly
to cover over the mistakes of others.
“The one covering over transgression is seeking
love,” says God’s Word, “and he that
keeps talking about a matter is separating
those familiar with one another.” (Prov. 17:9)
Complying with those words will help all of
us to preserve peace in the congregation and
maintain a good relationship with Jehovah.
—Matt. 6:14, 15.

COMMENTS

Most…but not all…even then what does it mean to “cover over the mistakes of others”? Is that what the elders do when another of their group does something “wrong” because they have to keep their authority intact? Do elders show the same to the rank and file or does a brother and sister find they spend years to be counted “worthy”? As to gossip, the worse are the elders, then their wives. I knew of elders’ children who listened in on an extension and told their friends. Peace in the congregation is not the important thing if one says they are a Christian (only a jw), but peace with God. Can one say he loves God whom he can’t see, and does not love humans he does see?

Pursuing Peace Brings Blessings

18, 19. What benefits result from pursuing peace?

18 Our pursuing “the things making for
peace” brings us rich blessings. We enjoy a
close personal relationship with Jehovah as
we imitate his ways, and we contribute to the
peaceful unity of our spiritual paradise. Pursuing
peace inside the congregation also
helps us to see ways in which we can pursue
peace with those to whom we preach “the
good news of peace.” (Eph. 6:15) We are better
prepared ‘to be gentle toward all, keeping
ourselves restrained under evil.’—2 Tim.
2:24.

COMMENTS

Did you know how rarely the WTS talks about a close, personal relationship with Jesus? Why is that?

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Do jws pursue peace with the people they talk to? Do they call them “goats”? Do they pick out a nice house in the neighborhood they can call they own after these people are destroyed at Armaggeddon (all 7 billion non-jws, men, women, and children with no hope of a resurrection). Do they lament their difficult life and hope for a quick end to all these sinners?

I remember the sister who got into a screaming match with a man about the flag salute; or the regular pioneer that yelled at the apartment manager who would not let them on the property. It took about 20 years before the people in those neighborhoods to let jws back.

19 Remember, too, that there will be “a resurrection
of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
(Acts 24:15) When that hope becomes
a reality here on earth, millions of
people with varying backgrounds, temperaments,
and personalities will be brought
back to life—and that from times stretching
all the way back to “the founding of the
world”! (Luke 11:50, 51) Teaching resurrected
ones the ways of peace will indeed be a
great privilege. What a tremendous help the
training we now receive as peacemakers will
be to us at that time!

COMMENTS

But remember the WTS teaches that the “unrighteous” are people who are already dead and will be resurrected AFTER Armaggeddon. Will jws today have the skills to teach others peace or will they have to learn it now, soon.

*** w89 9/1 p.19 par.7***
Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd ,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4) They will make up the “flesh” that Jesus Christ said would be saved through the worst tribulation of all human history.

What Did You Learn?

How may we pursue peace if we have offended someone?

What should be done to pursue peace when we have been wronged?

Why is it unwise to take sides in the disputes of others?

Explain why peace should not be pursued at any price.

CONCLUDING COMMENTS

Next week, JEHOVAH IS MY SHARE.

Now where is Jesus is this scenario? Oh, that’s right, this is based on the OT, no Jesus yet.

Love, Blondie
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 4 years ago

(bookmarked)
 
MrMonroe
MrMonroe 4 years ago

Even people belonging to the same national group and speaking the same
language are often divided religiously, politically,
and socially. By contrast, Jehovah’s
people are united.

Members of other religions are allowed to think for themselves and make decisions based on personal conscience. Jehovah's Witnesses attain "unity" by enforcing centrally dictated rules on thinking and conduct with the threat of expulsion and shunning for any who break ranks.
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Yay!!! More reading material!!!
Thank you, Blondie!!

 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

bump...
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

" Yet, jws are taught to hate non-jws and ex-jws. ..."
Hah!! They're also taught to hate "spiritually weak" Jehovah's Witnesses, too...!!
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago


" The peace we can enjoy with one another g oes deeper than merely refraining from d oing harm to our brothers. ..."
Funny...
They specifically mention "brothers" [= Elders], yet very obviously skip over or ignore those more likely to be harmed in the congregation - women [must SCREAM or it's considered "fornication"...] and children [must have TWO adult witnesses to the act, or else you're just a naughty apostate child trying to victimize those poor elders... ]
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 4 years ago


I can remember 2 congregations that shared a building.
Two congregations near me share a local hall, one English speaking and the other Spanish. Come Memorial night, guess which one uses the hall, and which has theirs announced on the marquee for the hotel conference room? Considering how short that event is, they could accommodate both groups in one evening much more easily that their separate meetings on Sunday. Or, if they insist on starting exactly at sunset, they could join together and have a somewhat longer bilingual service, showing their unity and brotherhood, with two sets of elders presenting the talks in both languages.




Let us, therefore, examine how we may pursue peace within the congregation.

"Within the congregation": is that all that matters? Is that what Jesus taught? Consider Matthew 5:43-48:
"...For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so?..."
 
Retrovirus
Retrovirus 4 years ago

Peace at Any Price?


15. When should we report a serious sin that we
have become aware of?


15 As Christians, we are exhorted to pursue
peace. However, the Bible also states: “The
wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then
peaceable.” (Jas. 3:17) Being peaceable is
secondary to chasteness, that is, upholding
God’s clean moral standards and meeting his
righteous requirements.
Typical twisted interpretation. If being peaceable is secondary to chasteness it means personal chasteness, not sticking your nose in others' affairs and ratting them out.
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago


"...“Be about settling matters quickly with the one complaining against you at law,” said Jesus. ..."
Did they totally miss the fact that this quote is probably referring to LEGAL matters in the Public courts?????
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

"[Blondie's comment...] "If jws are not under the Mosaic law, why does the WTS refer more often to people like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Jehu, Isaiah, etc., than people in the first century? How many times are WT doctrines based on the Law than on what Jesus said and did? ..."
EXCELLENT point, Blondie!!
I think that is a characteristic of fundamentalist Christian religions/sects, in general....
Just out of curiosity, has anyone else noticed this? The "Old Testament" contains over 800 pages of text [in an english-language version], while the "New Testament" barely contains 242 pages???? [Within the same english-language version, of course...]
Interesting...
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 4 years ago

Par 1: "By contrast, Jehovah’s people are united despite the fact that they have come out of “all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.”—Rev. 7:9.
United, what united? JW families are falling apart. Like anywhere else, many JW marriages are ending up in divorce. Two thirds of JW youth, if not more, want nothing to do with the WTBTS.
This sad excuse of a religion has no freedom to speak on the subject of pursuing peace.
In my congregation there are families (husbands and wives) that sit on opposite sides of the hall, seriously, and others that have gone through a divorce and others that are on the verge of divorce.
JWS UNITED! WHAT A JOKE.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 4 years ago

So they are quick to act on "offending" complaints. Yet, we are supposed to forgive someone who intended to ruin our lives?
Whether or not they like it, I am not making peace with those cockroaches that deliberately sought to sequester me from the opposite sex (making an existing problem worse), or those pigs that insisted that I was stealing from Jehovah (so what if I was, he stole from me) if I didn't pious-sneer, or that consistently find fault with every single one of my ideas to improve something. Nor is it appropriate for children to seek peace with those who abuse them and then silence them with threats of disfellowshipping. Whether this abuse is sexual molestation, regular beatings for stupid infringements on the congregation, or forcing them to waste their school vacations and study time in field circus, it represents a mean-spirited attempt on the part of such abusers to ruin their lives. And making peace only gives them more opportunity to further ruin their lives.
As for peace in the family, I have seen quite a few incidents of these beatings and threats while I was a witless. I don't know how many times I have heard "Just wait until we get home". And, when I first went out in field circus, there was this 8 year old that was kept in field circus every day during school recess in April. I know because I was out every afternoon--and this child was out every day with his mother. They were also out all damn morning, and often they didn't go in until 4 in the afternoon or later. This is longer than if the child had been in school! Plus, they had boasting sessions to attend to. To add to that abuse, the mother frequently threatened with spankings and beatings at home. I have seen the mother administer spankings while out in field circus along with threats of worse beatings later. Peace?
 
Gorbatchov
Gorbatchov 4 years ago

Blondie,
Thanks!
Gorby
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Wow, WT Wizard...
That poor 8-year-old!!
And I thought I had it bad!!!
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 4 years ago

When I was younger, there were 2 elder families that sat on opposite sides of the hall.I went to that congregation for 10 years and never saw the wives ever talk to each other or even look at each other.Imagine the energy that took, wasted energy.

Currently there is bad blood among individual JW members and between entire families in the 100,000+ congregations. It is hidden behind fake smiles and hipocrisy. That is perhaps the main reason why so many JWs transfer from one congregation to another. There are numerous personally clashes in our hall as well......................today! Many times in plain site!

WTBTS needs to work out the disharmony the exists among its' many members before they write articles telling the world how to pursue peace.

Blondie, you always hit the nail on the head so to speak with your comments and research.

Thank you.
 
BroMac
BroMac 4 years ago

14 When called upon to judge, how vital
it is that elders not let themselves be
deceived by falsehood, clever tactics, or rumors!
God’s appointed Judge, Jesus Christ,
judges righteously.

So who made so called 'shepherds' into 'judges' of none judicial cases? how can it come this far if the aim is to 'pursue peace' with the bro/sis. the footnoted WT reference says the important thing is 'to gain your brother/sis'. aim to work it out between you.

if that is not possible, remember, Jesus died to cover transgressions, including those of the 'innocent' party. not to run to the elders with tittle-tattle to cause trouble for our brothers or sisters.

why does the elder who has 'listened' and has 'not stopped up his ear to a matter', over something small & trivial, that comes under 'conscience matters' then instead of approaching the other party and dealing with it kindly, takes it to the body of elders and escalates the 'problem' causing untold stress and worry.

incompetence thats what it is.
 
blondie
blondie 4 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/217408/1/How-can-they-have-it-both-ways-Todays-Watchtower-Study-23-Oct-DOESNT-ANYBODY-ELSE-SEE-THE-DOUBLESPEAK

According to the WTS, how are elders guided by holy spirit, remember that the WTS frequently excuses the elders for their errors in judging as being “imperfect men.”
 

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CNN Essay by a Mennonite about his beliefs...
by CaptainSchmideo 5 years ago 2 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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CaptainSchmideo
CaptainSchmideo 5 years ago

The comments after the article are very interesting. A lot of knee jerk reactions as to the writer's loyalty to the US.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/26/my-faith-why-i-dont-sing-the-star-spangled-banner/
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/current/212417/1/Why-I-dont-sing-the-star-spangled-banner
 
CaptainSchmideo
CaptainSchmideo 5 years ago

Yeah, sorry about the double post...
 

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Things to understand about talking to a Jehovah's Witness...
by drew sagan 8 years ago 30 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Please note that everything I write here is within the context of discussions between two Witnesses. Conversations between a JW and non JW are different in a number of ways and so I will not be discussing them here.
 Many of us have tried to 'reason' with JW friends and family only to end up in frustration. This is no surprise being that JWs are instructed each week on how to use sophisticated techniques in their discussions. While they do not recognize that there is a method they are using to debate and discuss, they clearly do have one.
 Many of the methods use to discuss their religion contain common fallacies in argumentation. It is important to recognize that the JW has been instructed and taught that these fallacies are actually not fallacies at all, but instead are proper intellectual reasoning! Each week at the Kingdom Hall JWs will joke about the people they stumped with their 'good reasonings', they will give parts and talks about how to box people into a corner when debating them, and much more. They live in a world in which praises and rewards bad methods of reasoning. So while it is obvious to us their arguments are totally bogus, within the JW social environment they are completely 'sound' arguments.
What are some of the fallacies that JWs will typically use?
The Something Better fallacy:
 The most common of these I call the "something better" fallacy. In this false line of reasoning the JW will ignore any of the arguments you put forth because in his mind you cannot offer them 'something better' for him to believe. This reasoning comes out of a common teaching that JWs are given by the WTS, mainly that apostates can only 'tear down' the faith, but never offer anything better to believe. They are told this many times.
The Check-list fallacy
 In addition to their accusations that those who leave can't offer something better, JWs are routinely given check-lists which help them 'determine truth'. Typically such lists look something like this:
Only in the "true religion" you will find...
 - a rejection of the pagan trinity
 - a rejection of hellfire
 - a rejection of immortality of the soul
 - use of the divine name Jehovah
 - true Christian neutrality, and a loving brotherhood."
 - the only unified brotherhood on earth
 The above list is a minor sampling of the different things contained of the Watchtowers 'check-list' reasoning. Things they teach must be present in order for true religion to be present.
 This "check-list" system then becomes part of the reasoning tools used by JWs. They are taught that in order to find 'something better' it must meet all of the criteria as found in the checklists. It is important to note that the JW will honestly believe the checklist is coming from the Bible alone and not some human religious institution. The truth is that the checklists are coming from the Watchtower. The WTS is then able to teach its members to judge the world by a checklist that they know nobody else but themselves can 'pass'.
The 'Running Ahead' fallacy
 This fallacy basically falls into an argumentum ad hominem. It mainly consists of accusing anybody critical of the Society with 'running ahead' of the organization, thus having selfish interior motives for their disagreements. It is a common fallacy not exclusive to JWs. By accusing others of improper motives and desires the JW is able to move the discussion away from places he is not able to handle and make the discussion about peripheral subjects not related to the core discussion.
Understanding why these methods are fautly:
 No matter what the topic is (1914, 607, Blood, Disfellowshipping, ect.) the end result of a conversation critical of the Watchtower and its teachings will be listening to a JW using these methods to 'prove his point'. This is why actual discussions about particular topics can many times proves frustrating and fruitless. Many times those who are critical of the Society want to discuss things based on a proper view of reasoning and thinking, while the JW wants to use unfair methods in the discussion.
 So what exactly makes these reasonings bad?
 I'll first start with the something better fallacy.
 The biggest flaw with this reasonoing is what it does not account for. The primary assumption is that one should demand 'something better' before he leaves a religious system. Failure to provide 'something better' is interpreted as showing that that person is lost and therefore an unreliable source of information.
 Taking this reasoning outside the context of JWs, it is very easy to see why it is fautly. What the entire reasoning presupposes is that it is not possible to determine if a religion is true or false without have 'all' the answers needed to refute the system. This is just a totally crazy proposition. See what happens when we put this in an entirely differant context:
 Instead of talking about the Watchtower we will instead talk about the LDS Church (Mormons). Does a person need to figure out 'something better' in order to leave the LDS church? Is finding 'something better' completely necessary to help evaluate whether or not the claims made by the LDS church are true or not? The answer is obviously no. A person can verify the claims and teachings of that religion apart from figuring out what is 'better'. The system stands upon its own claims and not that of another system of beliefs. The LDS member does not have to know why every single interpretation and teaching is wrong to decide that Joseph Smith never recieved Golden tablets, that a lost tribe of jews traveled to America, or any other of the churches claims. They can be verified independently.
 Likewise, the Watchtower Society makes many different historical claims about itself that can easily be verified by looking in the older publications. By going back and seeing if what happened is what the WTS says happened we can see if they are giving us the truth about themselves or not. All sorts of claims are made regarding scientific data (earthquakes, famine ect.), in addition all sorts of things are said to have been going on in the organization itself during the 1918/19 divine appointment by God of the religion. These things can be independently verified to be true or false apart from finding 'something better'. Thus, to recognize the Wathcotwer is not who they claim to be can be verified on the basis of it's own claims about itself and the world around us and not against the backdrop of 'something better'.
 Any JW would agree that a person can leave a church like the LDS, recognize it as a false institution but not actually know what real truth is. When this is applied to their own group though, they will make the unfair demands that the person them tell them what the real 'truth' is.
 I would say that the check-list idea really is directly related to the something better method of reasoning. The two kind of go hand in hand. It works somewhat as a trap. The JW will first get you to offer up 'something better' and then once you do, he will tear it down based on all of the things in the 'check-list'. If you are then able to overcome any of his arguments in the check-list (and these are the discussions that end up lasting hours) the JW will eventually accuse you of "running ahead" and have selfish motives. At the end of it all you feel like you are running in circles, never making any progress with them.
How to use this understanding to your benefit
 Understanding where people "are" is a major requirement in knowing how to effectively help people.
 My suggestion is that instead of focusing on an actual argument about particular doctrines, historical facts, biblical interpretations and the like, one should rather focus on introducing proper methods of thinking to the person.
 As time went on I learned how to do this with my wife. Rather than try to tell her 'what to think', I focused on the fundamentals of 'how' to think.
 If you go right into trying to show a JW errors in the religion they will simply reinterpret whatever you show them. "That's not a lie, it's just a mistake!" is a very common response.
 Instead of trying to find all the right 'facts' needed to break through, do little things to help the person pick out what bad reasoning is. Eventually they will make the connection.
 One thing I liked to do was point out how bogus similar arguments appears in other religious institutions. I'd point out how flawed disfellowshipping is in the LDS or Mennonite church for instance. The same arguments are used by those groups to support the practice that JWs use, so when you show how in error they are you are indirectly criticizing the Watchtower. Open ended questions are great as well. Try to leave things open and let them connect the dots.
 Don't get me wrong, this can be very hard as well. Answers such as 'since we alone have Gods spirit we are better' can always put a damper on things. But remember what you are up against. Things are many times no where near as bad as we picture them to be.
 There is no 'official' way to talk with JWs. The above discussion only scratches the surface of what exactly is going on inside of the mind of a JW. Take time to learn about the people you wish to have meaningful conversations with. Understand that they have not only been mislead on what to think, but are also being taught the wrong ways on how to think.
 
Sirona
Sirona 8 years ago

Wow excellent post.
I agree with you completely that they will just say that the JWs have made mistakes and they'll alter their views when you tell them what is wrong with the religion.
How would you suggest helping them to think outside of the box without being too obvious?
Thanks
Sirona
 
Awakened07
Awakened07 8 years ago

Thanks. A nicely put and well thought out post. I think I'll put it in my Favorites.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

I think a great way to go about it is talking about how these bad methods of thinking are present in other groups. If you tie what these other groups do and say with JWs, make sure to keep it brief. What you really want is for them to recognize bad reasonings on their own. Trying to point them out can be very confrontational and that is something to be avoided imo.
 
JeffT
JeffT 8 years ago

Drew regarding the "check list"
Have you (or any of the rest of you) read "Apostles of Denial" by Edmund Gruss. I read it as part of my research when I was leaving. If you haven't read it, I recommend it. He points out that large chunks of Witness doctrine is built around what they don't believe, not what they do believe. I.E. we don't believe the trinity, we don't believe in hellfire. If those concepts didn't exist, they 'd have nothing to talk about, since that is how they define themselves. Their whole religion is built on a foundation of stuff they DO NOT believe. Odd way to establish your religion.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

JeffT
 Have not read the book but understand the concept quite well, i'll have to check it out.
 Ever since C.T. Russell the Watchtower has always been 'topic' based. Certain topics where chosen by Russell as points of discussion. His final conclusions on these subjects really seem to be at the 'core' of Watchtower teaching. Usually the conclusion is a rejection of a mainstream doctrine and it's subsequent replacement.
 In the Watchtower the rejection of a doctrine is usually seen as much more important that actual acceptance of the new doctrine. This is because it is much more advantageous for the Watchtower to make you believe that everybody else on this planet is corrupt rather than focus on all the details as to why their assumptions are correct.
 Remember that 'brighter light' can actually change what they do believe at any time. That is why they seek to define themselves by what they reject.
 The idea of discerning wheather or not the Watchtower has been chosen of God independently of the rejection and/or acceptance of doctrinal teachings is something a JW has a hard time comprehending. Because the methods used to convert a new member are based on the "check-list" system, a person entering the Watchtower is taught a distorted method of how to evaluate information from the very beginning.
 I really do think it is important to realize how from the very beginning potential converts are instructed in bad methods of reasoning. It's really key to understanding how people end up getting stuck in the Watchtower.
 
neverendingjourney
neverendingjourney 8 years ago

Dawg recently had a topic where he said that he had forgone any attempt to argue doctrine with the Witnesses. He made that comment in regards to a JW who came on the board a few days ago taking an anti-trinitarian approach and claiming that most apostates embrace the trinity doctrine once they leave. My response, which I feel applies in the context of your topic as well, was as follows:

It’s funny that you mention this because I spent a considerable part of the day thinking about this very thing. I think you have to keep the concepts that underlie the Jehovah’s Witness world view in mind when dealing with them. They have become convinced that: (1) the Bible is the inerrant word of God, (2) Armageddon is just around the corner, and that the (3) the only way to survive Armageddon is to be an active member in good standing with the Jehovah’s Witness religious organization (4) which is the only religious organization on the planet that has God’s blessing and (5) is the only channel that He’s using to communicate his will to mankind. Once they accept these basic premises, NOTHING you say will convince them to leave. You can’t argue logic because they are trained to disregard logic and obey the organization first. Remember those precious reminders about how Abraham obeyed Jehovah despite how illogical the command to kill his own son might have seemed to him?
In order to get people to accept those premises they begin by teaching them simple doctrines, such as the rejection of the traditional Christian concept of the trinity, which appears to be a slam dunk, at least when exclusively using their religious literature. Since the majority of those JWs not born in are recruited whey they are at emotional low points in their life and already searching for God or “the truth,” it only takes a few of these “slam dunk” doctrines to get them hooked. First they roll out the beliefs on the trinity, the immortal soul, paradise earth, and so on. Then the recruit becomes convinced that the witness must have the truth because these beliefs are clearly right and they are a rejection of mainstream Christianity. The “where else can we go” mentality begins to sink in, and then they just accept all of the other stuff that has little or no support (the faithful and discreet slave teaching, 1914, etc.) later once they have already become convinced that the witnesses have the truth. At this point, circular logic becomes firmly entrenched and logic will NEVER convince any witness that has reached this level to leave.
For instance, if the society says apostates are mean, evil, deceitful people, in the mind of a loyal JW they are. Why? Because the FDS says so. And the FDS was appointed by God. And God’s word, the Bible, is infallible. And if I want to survive Armageddon I must obey the FDS. And I must obey because the FDS says to, etc. Besides, where else will I go? Mainstream Christendom embraces all of these false doctrines that only the JWs reject. You get the point.
From my perspective, the only way to use logic to get a JW to leave the religion is to catch them when they have become disillusioned with the religion or are otherwise in a position where they are willing to begin to entertain the idea that maybe things are not truly as the FDS says they are. If you can start to put some chinks in the protective armor of their underlying premises, then you might be able to make logic work for you. But a JW will only allow anyone to put chinks in their armor if they are willing to let you do so, provided that they are a true, blue believer. Otherwise, the witness will dismiss what you say and repeat the “obey the slave” mantra in his mind.
Back to the original JW poster, although I didn’t read his post, I assume that he’s arguing about the trinity because that doctrine forms part of the most basic, core doctrines that a person learns and accepts when in the process of embracing JWism. If he’s a legitimate believer (and I always doubt how a true believer can bring themselves to post on JWD), he’s simply trying to bring us apostates back to square one and become JWs again. He’s expressing the most basic doctrines that are used to lead people down the path of embracing Jehovah’s Witness religious thought. Perhaps he thinks that if we can be reminded of how solid the JW’s anti-trinity teaching is, we’ll somehow go down the same road he went down when becoming a Witness. Or, perhaps, he’s just using this topic, which I thought was the easiest point to argue while out in service, in an attempt to win a debate against the dreaded apostates. Whatever the case may have been, I agree with your point overall. Arguing dogma with a Witness doesn’t work, and it doesn’t work because of the existence of those underlying, airtight premises that they accept, premises that only lead to circular reasoning and the dismissal of any arguments that go against the teachings of the FDS.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

neverendingjourney
 Thanks for posting those comments.
 I've been a supporter of not getting into doctrinal arguments with JWs for quite some time. They are really pointless. The main thrust of a JWs argumentation is getting you to say what you believe so he can tear it down. It is much better to function outside of that reasoning. If you do not discuss with the JW things he has been trained to tear down the conversation can go much better.
 Recognizing exactly what they do believe (like Dawg pointed out in the that first paragraph) and then realizing exactly how they intend to support those beliefs (what i've posted in this topic) can help a person avoid pointless debates about things unrelated to the main issue at hand, that being "has the Watchtower been chosen by God and is there any substantial proof?
 
startingover
startingover 8 years ago

Great stuff! Nothing I can add, just marking for further reference.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

glad you like it startingover
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

Excellent post, Drew
The JW "Something Better" retort is also sometimes called the "Burning House" argument. (i.e. A house is on fire, but the occupant refuses to leave unless you can provide him with a new house.)
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 8 years ago

My discussions with JW's find them using these exact one you describe:


The Something Better fallacy

I like your LDS analogy. I will use that. "Does a Mormon have to necessarily
find something better? No, we can demontrate that their teachings are wrong
even if they seem correct or the best.
"Any JW would agree that a person can leave a church like the LDS, recognize
it as a false institution but not actually know what real truth is."
The Check-list fallacy In addition to their accusations that those who leave can't offer something better, JWs are routinely given check-lists which help them 'determine truth'. Typically such lists look something like this:
Only in the "true religion" you will find...
- a rejection of the pagan trinity
- a rejection of hellfire
- a rejection of immortality of the soul
- use of the divine name Jehovah
- true Christian neutrality, and a loving brotherhood."
- the only unified brotherhood on earth
The JW's I know say this. Each pont could be tackled but they refuse to do it.
I usually try to tell them that they have not arrived at each of these points by their
own deep study separate from the WT literature. The WTS has told them that the
Boreans "checked" the things being taught them for accuracy, explaining that they
assumed it was true, just finding scriptures that can back the teachings in an
isolated setting. We have to assume the WTS is mistaken. The Boreans didn't
necessarily do as WTS said, and regardless, we need to examine each of these
points on our own.
The 'Running Ahead' fallacy
I don't even bother to try too hard on that one. If you mean, "thinking for myself instead
of waiting to be told what to think, deciding how to examine it without WT guidance, well
then, I am guilty.
 
darth frosty
darth frosty 8 years ago

I'm coming back.
 
FadingAway
FadingAway 8 years ago

I'm reading and rereading this Drew. Excellent information. Well done!
 
Open mind
Open mind 8 years ago

Great job Drew!
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this.
I especially like the clarity you brought to the whole "Where will I go to?" false dilemma.
Thanks again,
Open Mind
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

I agree that it's pointless to argue doctrine with a dub, for all the reasons stated above.
Because dubs are trained in this manner, they cannot imagine being wrong. They are convinced any argument not coming directly from the organization has its roots in Satan and must be in error! I had what I thought was a really good friend back in the day; apparently I am dead to him now. He was an educated, intelligent and well-balanced individual in most ways. But when we were by ourselves and we'd discuss any of the many things about dub doctrine that made no sense, he'd always say: "Follow the organization, no matter what." He had parked his thinking ability outside the door to the Kingdom Hall!
Consequently, when someone posts here that they are being bothered by elders wanting to know why they aren't active, I always suggest that they just ignore them. Nothing is more effective in dealing with elders than to view them as totally irrelevant to your life. They just cannot deal with that and, for the most part, will just write you off. They are completely immersed and when they judge that you are not, they either have to ask why and go there, or take the easier path and dismiss you from their minds. It's all about picking the low hanging fruit for them (and I know, I was one for 20 years or more).
 
Odrade
Odrade 8 years ago

How about the "those are just men" aka: "imperfect men make mistakes that will be corrected" fallacy? grr.
 
Robert222
Robert222 8 years ago

I enjoyed reading these posts, very helpful to me. I am dealing with this since leaving the cult and mind controlling religion. My sister is still totally self hypnotized, and gets a weekly dose of hynotism at the sales meetings at the KH. I do like the comments above, and will try to remember them, that those items about hell fire, so forth, is what you have been told by men, your human leaders, you did not learn it for yourself from the scriptures. Same with WT material, why can't you be taught from the bible? Why the need to corporate brochures and magazines?
The only time I can reach my sister is when I mention how are the JWs different from any other tax exempt corporation. I show her news articles of their real estate holdings and the estimated millions they make. That usually silences her for awhile until she goes back for more mind control sessions and gets back into the spirit of being chosen by god for the new system.
It just is an uphill battle with a JW because of the yrs and yrs of expert mind control they receive each day, whether at mtgs, door to door sales pitches, or at home with their meditation (self hypnosis). Very frustrating.
 
startingover
startingover 8 years ago

TD,
The "burning house" argument... excellent!
 
JeffT
JeffT 8 years ago

Odrade: figuring that one out was one of the things that pushed me over the edge. I realized that when they are discussing obedience to the org they are "spirit directed" "God's organization" the faithful slave and all that. It all boils down to "believe what we tell you to believe."
But if they are discussing getting caught doing something like predicting the end of the world in 1975, then they're just imperfect men. What really struck me is how quickly dubs can move back and forth between positions without noticing the conflict.
 

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Things to understand about talking to a Jehovah's Witness...
by drew sagan 8 years ago 30 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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5go
5go 8 years ago

The problem though is they better be doubting before you try or else whammo! He(she) tells the elders you are in doubt, and need more help than they can provide; and then you are in an interrogation, or a JC. The watchtower has been planning a counter to this for a while.
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 8 years ago

How about the "those are just men" aka: "imperfect men make mistakes that will be corrected" fallacy? grr.
That was an easy one for me, one thing that my grampa kept saying to me. I reminded him that imperfect men who are trying to figure out doctrine should at least admit that they aren't sure of what the "best answer" is. Furthermore, if they have the wrong answer to doctrine, why do they throw out and spiritually destroy the fellow slaves who think differently, who aren't trying to sway others? And if said person was thrown out but later found out to be in the right, do they apologize and immediately bring him back in the congregation? No, they do not. If they were just trying to figure out the answer for everyone else, they would have the humility to admit that they do not know the full answer on a certain doctrine. Instead, policy changes instantly, and anyone who doesn't toe the line is given the boot. This behavior is hardly befitting a "discreet" servant.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Thanks for all the positive comments. I'm glad this has been helpful.
TD
 Thanks for pointing out the 'Burning House' analogy. It was on the tip of my tongue, but I just couldn't remember it when I was writing everything out.
willyloman
 You are so right when you say it is best for people not to talk with the Elders when they fade. It's exactly what I did. The only reason I eventually did was because charges had been brought against me and my wife. If that never happened then we would never have been bothered by them.
Robert222
 In your situation I would suggest you to do some of the things I wrote about at the end of the article. Instaed of focusing on facts and debates that focus on the Watchtower, discuss things with here that will help her develop the ability to see a bad argument when it comes her way. Empowering a person can like this can do a lot of good.
5go What you said is so true. That's why I say if you realize where the JW is you can indirectly do things to possibly help get the person past the bad methods of reasoning and skip in depth arguments about the Watchtower altogether. Talking about other religious groups that are similiar and share the same bogus methods of reasoning is very helpful.
SirNose586
 You said:
I reminded him that imperfect men who are trying to figure out doctrine should at least admit that they aren't sure of what the "best answer" is.
Excellent point! Said in one sentence and very well put. I'm going to store that one in my memory bank.
 
5go
5go 8 years ago

Talking about other religious groups that are similiar and share the same bogus methods of reasoning is very helpful.
Sorry my attempt at that ended in an interrogation. Becareful no matter what! If they are still plugged in they might consult the elders. Then the elders will ask" where did you here that?". Then the elders come looking for you, and fade over.
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

What really struck me is how quickly dubs can move back and forth between positions without noticing the conflict.
This is the classic definition of a dub-related condition often discussed on this forum: "cognitive dissonance."
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Sorry my attempt at that ended in an interrogation. Becareful no matter what! If they are still plugged in they might consult the elders. Then the elders will ask" where did you here that?". Then the elders come looking for you, and fade over.
This is why one should always use discression when talking with fellow JWs. If you can get away from the JW world without having to discuss anything at all, then it is usually better that way. If one has to engage it at all (wife or husband is in, kids, parents, ect) it can be helpful.
 I also think that the relationships people share make a difference as well. Talking with your spouse is one thing, talking with your parents is another. Each situation is different. Some people you are around every day, others you are not.
 Discression is always needed because some JWs are barley hanging on while others are as solid as stone. It can be very difficult to tell.
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 years ago

marked
 
HeyThere
HeyThere 2 years ago

saving...
my convos are now beyond my husband amd with my study sisters. they have embraced my questions. they said hey wished more people had questions....we shall see.
i took the approach of telling them that i know longer want to book study, but have a list of topics that i want supported by the bible only... they agreed. quite happilly. we had quite the conversation today. one of them was very shocked by stuff I read from old wt. she is going to start her own research, she said.

thank you to this site and alll of th
e and contributers for helping me see my way clearer in this haze of dub i have find myself in...
 
losingit
losingit 2 years ago

Love this thread
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 2 years ago

Very good insight at the reasoning of the JW. It's about how they think, how they decide what is real and true. If that can be tackled, and only after that is tackled, then the doctrines will sort of out themselves. The doctrines cannot survive critical thinking.
Though it is incredibally frustrating when a JW posseses critical thinking skills, yet will completely turn it off when it comes to the WT. True deep indoctrination.
 
cultBgone
cultBgone 2 years ago

Great thread, saving to read again.
 

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Topic Summary
please note that everything i write here is within the context of discussions between two witnesses.
conversations between a jw and non jw are different in a number of ways and so i will not be discussing them here.
the 'running ahead' fallacy.



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BIG WEEKEND JW NEWS STORY EXPOSES HEARTLESS CULT
by West70 10 years ago 41 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower scandals
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West70
West70 10 years ago


The following newspaper article appears to be the original (and more lengthy and indepth) article from which Associated Press took their "summarized" (and less informative) story which is being picked up by a number of television stations and newspapers across the U.S.
This BETTER VERSION should be forwarded to media outlets as a more informative version for their audience.
Its a pity that the reporter did not expound more on "JW SHUNNING", and explain to the world that the REAL REASON that the two JW parents did not meet and greet their two sons, and show their appreciation that they had returned from Iraq alive, was because they themselves -- these two Jehovah's Witness parents -- had already symbolically "stoned" their own sons to death even before they left for Iraq. These boys were already DEAD in these Jehovah's Witness parents' eyes.
The world needs to know the intimate details of the beliefs and teachings of this heartless satanic CULT.
------------------------------
http://www3.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=251095

Family splits over sons' military service; war conflicts with their beliefs
By CHARITA GOSHAY
CANTON - The Marine Corps Reserve 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines returned home from Iraq to the open arms of grateful family members.
Jason and Johel Woodliff had only each other.
The brothers say they were not greeted by their family upon their return on Oct. 6, because of religion.
The Woodliffs' parents are devout Jehovah's Witnesses, who oppose war and military service.
Graduates of Washington High School in Massillon, the Woodliffs said they had a strict upbringing based on their parents' faith, and that the real trouble began when they announced their intentions to become Marines.
"When they found out I wanted to join, they were very upset about it," said Johel, 20, who turned down a college scholarship to join the Marines in 2003.
"I let them know that as I grew older, I had done some research on the religion, and that it didn't abide with my beliefs."
Jason, 23, claims that when he informed his parents in 2004 that he too intended to join the Marines, he was asked to leave the house.
"I was 18 years old, living by myself in a trailer," he said. "I haven't had a conversation with my dad in five years. For him, it's 100 percent about the religion."
Though the Bible is filled with accounts of battles and war imagery, J.R. Brown, director of public information for the Watchtower Bible Tract Society, confirmed that Jehovah's Witnesses don't participate in military service based on their interpretation of Scripture, and that the actions of the Woodliffs' parents are consistent with the faith.
"As Christians, we're neutral with respect to the conflicts that nations have," he said. "Our neutrality is just in regards to conflicts of men. This doesn't mean we're adversaries. We try to (convey) that to the person as best we can, but because they're usually partisan, they think we're against them. That's not the case. We're truly neutral."
Brown noted that numerous U.S. court decisions have recognized members' right to neutrality.
"We're not be feared," Brown said, adding that the church is merely adhering to Jesus' admonition to, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God, the things that are God's."
disassociation
Brown acknowledged that family members who enter the military voluntarily, risk "disassociation."
"We as an organization or local congregation do not initiate this action," he explained. "Rather than 'disfellowship,' we use 'disassociation' as a term. That means the individual made a conscientious decision that he or she would no longer ascribe to the principles that we do. He or she has decided to take a side; the individual has left the position of 'neutral.' We look at disassociation as accepting the person's decision to take a side."
Given that the faith places a great deal of emphasis on the family, Brown concedes that others might see the policy as contradictory.
"It depends on how you look at your Christian responsibility," he said. "We look at our responsibility before God as our first and foremost responsibility. As our creator, he comes first. We feel our position of neutrality is based on our love for him. If a family member does not accept the same decision, we feel they have to bear the consequences. It pains us. We're human too."
Brown said members must prioritize their allegiances.
"You have to decide who's first in your life, is it God more than any human?" he said. "The fact is, we do not even put ourselves and our own interests ahead of God. He's our creator. Our allegiance is first to him. In making that decision, it does at times create problems within the family. Husbands, wives, parents can be torn; there's love there. But the apostle said we must obey God as ruler rather than man."
The brothers said that although they no longer embrace a particular faith, they believe in God and the Bible, adding that many Marines are deeply religious.
"There are Scriptures written all over Iraq," Johel said. "My favorite is John 15:13."
Attached to Johel's dog tags is a worn medallion of St. Michael, the warrior angel. He also carries a camouflage-paperback Bible.
"War shouldn't be necessary, but war has existed since the beginning of man," he said. "The Bible speaks of war constantly. King David was one of the greatest warriors. It shouldn't be a necessity, but it's a reality."
moral conflict?
The Rev. Wendy Bausman, a retired Navy chaplain and an associate pastor at Christ Presbyterian Church, ministered to Marines and sailors for 14 years.
"I didn't have a conflict serving in the military," she said. "But I was a non-combatant, which put me in different category. It would have been really challenging for me (in uniform), simply because of handling a weapon. I'm not comfortable with that."
Bausman said she did encounter service people who became conscientious objectors.
"The first person they go to outside their chain of command, is the chaplain," she explained. "A chaplain listens, counsels and writes a recommendation. They also must discern if the person is just trying to get out of the military, or it's something sincere."
She recalled one Marine who became an objector after joining a Mennonite church.
"It was really an honest introspection," she said. "He was struggling with the military once he became a Mennonite." unconditional love
The Woodliff brothers said they really didn't expect their parents to attend their homecoming.
"I begged my mother to come, but I knew she wouldn't," Johel said. "Several families know our situation and have taken us under their wing. My mom knows I'll always have love for her. I believe love is unconditional."
His brother is less forgiving.
"What's the most important thing in the Bible? Love and family," Jason asked.
"It's not like I blasphemed God or worshipped the devil. It's just ridiculous to me."
parents' reply
In a written statement, Thomas and Mia Woodliff respond: "We love our sons and are saddened that they have expressed public disappointment regarding what should be a private, family matter, that is, our choice not to attend the recent homecoming party for the 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines. As you know, we are Jehovah's Witnesses and are neutral as to the political and military affairs of the world. We base our beliefs on Scriptures such as John 17:14, 16, Matthew 5:43, 44 and Matthew 26:52 among others. This means we are neither for nor against the political involvements of the 200-plus nations that we can be found in. This does not mean that we do not love the land in which we live, or that we disrespect the government or those in authority. We recognize that each nations ruling authority has the right to enact and enforce laws, make foreign policy and to purse its own sovereign interests. We simply choose not to participate.
"However, we are generally known as exemplary taxpayers and citizens and we try to follow the laws of the land to the extent that our Bible-trained conscience will individually permit. Which leads us to the main point of our statement. Our two sons were taught to be peace-loving followers of Jesus Christ. Instead, they have chosen a different path. We respect their right to chose whatever lifestyle they wish. And we hope one day for reconciliation so that we can be a united family again. We have many fond memories of the abundant good times we shared together. In the meantime, please be assured that the current difference in point of view, and the separation in ties that has occurred as a result, does not mean that we love our children less."
WHAT DO WITNESSES BELIEVE?
Founded in 1881 by Charles T. Russell of Pittsburgh, Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, centers on preparation for the second coming of Christ.
Witnesses believe that Christ returned to Earth in 1914 by way of an "invisible presence," and that his presence remains on earth today.
Though members consider themselves Christians, their doctrine rejects several tenets of orthodox Christianity: n Witnesses reject the concept of a "triune" God. They believe that Jesus was God's first creation, not God incarnate. They also believe the Holy Spirit is a "force" of God, not the third person of the Trinity.
n Witnesses reject the Christian tenet that Jesus' resurrection was physical; rather, they believe he received a "spirit" body and that his physical body was disposed of by Jehovah.
n They also reject the idea of an eternal hell, believing instead that people who refuse to repent will suffer an eternal death.
n Witnesses also eschew blood transfusions, based on the Book of Leviticus in the Old Testament, which forbids ingestion of meats containing blood, and Acts 15:29 in the New Testament.
n Christmas, Easter and family birthdays are not observed because Witnesses believe they're based on pagan traditions.
n Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to salute the flag or engage in military service, based on their belief that God will fight all battles and exact justice. They also embrace political neutrality.
n During World War II, more than 2,500 members were killed in Nazi concentration camps. Prior to the war, Witnesses were branded heretics by mainline German churches in Germany. In 1935, the sect was outlawed. Even after the war, persecution of members continued throughout the world.
n Currently, nearly 1,000 Jehovah's Witnesses are in jail in South Korea for refusing to serve in that country's military. South Korea has no provision for alternative service.
http://www.cantonrep.com
E-mail the webmaster at: webmaster@cantonrep.com
 
carla
carla 10 years ago


The parents say it should be a 'private family matter'? Is anything ever a private family matter in the hall? Interesting conversation in my home about this topic. One child did not find husband neutral at all when discussing this topic. The child found his policy of inaction an action in itself. This was a preteen. I'm sure his delivery in the conversation also helped the child feel that way.
I hope this makes my paper.
 
greendawn
greendawn 10 years ago

Can the dubs really prove that the early christians didn't participate in the army? For all I've read it was a matter of individual conscience not something to be imposed upon the individual.
 
jeeprube
jeeprube 10 years ago


our choice not to attend the recent homecoming party for the 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines. As you know, we are Jehovah's Witnesses and are neutral as to the political and military affairs of the world. We base our beliefs on Scriptures such as John 17:14, 16, Matthew 5:43, 44 and Matthew 26:52 among others. This means we are neither for nor against the political involvements of the 200-plus nations that we can be found in.
To truly be "neither for nor against" involvement in the military, why would they care what anybody else did as regards military service? By taking the stand they do, JW's show that they are decidedly *against* military service. This violates the principle of nuetrality. JW's express an understanding of what nuetrality means, but they fail to live up to this understanding. By dissassociating and shunning members who choose to serve their country, JW's are taking a stand. They aren't nuetral at all; they are against war and the military.
A truely nuetral person wouldn't care either way.
 
carla
carla 10 years ago


Jee,
That is exactly the point my child was trying to make to him, he of course didn't see it.
 
rebel8
rebel8 10 years ago


This does not mean that we do not love the land in which we live...blah...blah...
This part seems to be a direct quote from the literature rather than an original statement, which always makes them look like parrots IMO.
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 10 years ago

God I hate JR Brown.
 
willyloman
willyloman 10 years ago


In a written statement, Thomas and Mia Woodliff respond:
Wonder who wrote it for them? It's carefully crafted.
This story exposes the WTS' soft underbelly. Here's hoping it gets major play and that the shunning doctrine gets to be front and center in subsequent stories.
 
West70
West70 10 years ago

I don't know whether anyone recalls such, but this isn't the first time this has happened in the past few months.
Wasn't there a Army Ranger killed in Iraq or Afghanistan about 2 months ago, who had been reared JW, and he had signed a Waiver for a military funeral so if he was killed his own JW parents would attend his funeral?
I also believe there was a third instance of a "returning" soldier.
We should also not forget the "reared JW" Vietnam soldier who was killed in combat, and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his heroism. His JW Mother and Sister refused to go to the ceremony and accept it. However, curiously, the whole family showed up when a federal building was named in his honor back in the 1990s. I believe his last name was "Sargeant", or something similar.
 
codeblue
codeblue 10 years ago



 The JW's certainly didn't remain "neutral" to political endeavors as shown by their 10 year alligiance as an NGO with the United Nations.
That is pure hypocrisy.
Based on their non-neutral postion with the Wild Beast...the JW org should be shunned by all real Christians!!!
Codeblue
 
Cygnus
Cygnus 10 years ago


In the meantime, please be assured that the current difference in point of view, and the separation in ties that has occurred as a result, does not mean that we love our children less
Bullshit. Their kids are now signed on with the wild beast and have become haters of righteousness and lovers of badness according to their religion. What does the Watchtower say about family members who leave the faith? It says they wish they could kill them like Hebrew law stated, but alas the laws of the land prevents them from doing so. Even so, Jehovah will eventually kill them. Sick.
***
w52 11/15 p. 703 Questions from Readers ***
In
the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshiped [disassociated], how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?—P. C., Ontario, Canada.
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. . . Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God’s law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation.
***
w82 5/15 pp. 24-25 How You Must Act! ***
No enemy of Jehovah and of Christ the King will survive! The Bible here shows that the mighty ones of the earth—the rulers of the nations, the military leaders, the wealthy business magnates—and all who support them, whether conscripted or volunteers, will have to meet up with Jehovah’s judgment. They will have no way to flee! Their selfish schemes and efforts to preserve this old wicked system will fail. They will be forced to see that heaven’s favor is not upon them.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

I posted this story at two news forums and emailed the heads up to all 61 news outlets that ran the story,cause that's what i do.
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 10 years ago

Danny...Have a tall cold one on me.
 
lucifer
lucifer 10 years ago

i am so glad this was printed, more ppl need to know what really goes on in this cult, i hate the fact that they disassociate people,its crazy i was in that cult for i dunno maybe 7 years, i was baptized for a few of em, and i never heard of it! isnt that weird, i knew about disfellowshipping, but when we stopped going, and my mom wrote a letter to the elders saying we no long were in their religion my parents told me my old friend wouldnt be talking to me anymore...not by her choice..but as a type of rule for ppl who disassociate themselves, lets clear something up :i did disassociate myself from that crazy religion, NOT from my friends,...some friend
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 10 years ago


Carla wrote "The child found his policy of inaction an action in itself."
That is exactly what left political thinking would say - and have said and continue to say - about this, and I am not trying to speak negatively about left political thought here. The reasoning is, that if you have a left, let us call it Socialist, government win an election or come to power, like in Chile some years ago, or Cuba today, then a group not participating in the political life, like the JWs, will in fact work for a turnover back to the capitalist system, they will be anti-government, because Socialism means that the whole people should participate in political action and build a new society. The, on the other hand, in a capitalist society, a group like the JWs, being inactive, will in fact work for a status quo, because the ruling capitalist government is interested in prolonging the system and is not interested in change.
So a JW in a capitalist society is indirectly working for capitalism and he is anti-socialist, which means pro-government. A JW in a socialist society is also indirecly working for capitalism and he is anti-capitalist, which means anti-government. A neutral JW is therefore always anti-left and pro-right.
 
rebel8
rebel8 10 years ago

Is this story anywhere online that doesn't require registration? I'd like to distribute the link but people are much less likely to go to it if they have to register to read the story.
 
West70
West70 10 years ago


Sorry about the above link. I used it several times yesterday without it tripping the Registration screen. But, yes, it is now doing so.
The following link at the same originating newspaper just worked:
http://www3.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=251095&r=2&Category=11
However, use this link first, or tryin both in the same seesion may cause the second link to trip the screen.
Thanks for passing this along to others.
Also, BIG THANKS to Danny Hazard for his continuous efforts at exposing the many monstrous faces of this satanic CULT!!!
 
FairMind
FairMind 10 years ago


Graduates of Washington High School in Massillon, the Woodliffs said they had a strict upbringing based on their parents' faith, and that the real trouble began when they announced their intentions to become Marines.
If these men were baptized JWs then in all fairness they knew the consequences of joining the military. If they were baptized then I have no pity for them because they thorough their actions chose to disassociate themselves from all other JWS. If they were not baptized then shunning them is unfair.
 
West70
West70 10 years ago

FairMind:
You "have no pity" for these two SHUNNED fellow humans assuming they were "baptized" as children?
That's certainly a unique judgment for someone posting on this DB.
 
theinfamousone
theinfamousone 10 years ago


its all very nice to say that those who left made a consciencious decision to leave the cult... thats fine, of course we did... we did not make a decision to be treated as dirt by our family, our friends to be completely shunned by these people... its the only "religion" i know of that will tell someone else that they can be shunned just for not shunning someone else who decided not to be with them in church... HOW CAN CHURCH BE THAT IMPORTANT??? they are willing to kick out their 18 year old son, and make him live on his own, probably even spending quite a few hungry nights... OH YEAH JEHOVAHS WITNESSES ACT ONLY OUT OF LOVE!! ...

the infamous one
 

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BIG WEEKEND JW NEWS STORY EXPOSES HEARTLESS CULT
by West70 10 years ago 41 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower scandals
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Robenz
Robenz 10 years ago

Bonjour. I read the news about this parents who refused to accept to welcome their to sons when they came back from irak. I am not surprise, i live in france and i have been a j-w for more than 30 years until i made serious research ,bible, historical , religious. One of the thing desperatly neded among j-w is "honest informations" from differents sources, to get information from one source:' the governing bodie' of j-w is plainly dangerous and unhealthy. As for the heartbraking case of this two soldiers i would like to remind their parents about world war II. I am of jewish origine, i am 50 years old and my oncle was arrested and put in "french concentration camp in Drancy", my aunt parents where arrested in france in 1941 ,set to "Drancy" and deported to auswitz and exterminated like many others . My father was living in morocco at that time wich was under french authority, on the 11 november 1941 they where to be deported to france and exterminated in auswitz, on the 8 of november 1941 the u.s forces debarqued in morrocco , and the jewish people of this country where saved, my father loved the americain army and his alway grateful to them, he alway tell this storie when we see each other, his 87 years old now. The allied forces in world war II saved europe, and delivered from the differents concentrations camps in europe the remaining poor peoples jews and non jews , and jehovahs witness , for that tey had to kill thousands and thousands german soldiers and nazis . The question i would like to ask the parents of this two soldiers that came back from irak: where the americain soldiers christian and jewish where they rigt to break "christian neutrality" to saved us????? This parents should open their eyes and look at the hidden history of the leaders of j-w :"Rutherford and his cooperators have sent a disgusting antisemite letter of compremise with adolf hitler, that subjet was poorly treated in an awake magazine. The jehovahs witness in the concentration camps never new about the details of this letter , and i deeply admire their christian faith but their leaders betrayed them. Has for christian principles this peoples should remenber what Jesus-Christ said in mattew 5:43" to love even their own enemies" so all the more their own sons. I have lot more to say about my experience on my life as a j-w. until next time . au revoir.
 
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 10 years ago

Welcome to the forum!
the governing bodie' of j-w is plainly dangerous and unhealthy.
Beautiful summary! Spot on!
Dave
 
willyloman
willyloman 10 years ago

"We as an organization or local congregation do not initiate this action," he [J.R. Brown] explained.
So this concept materialized out of thin air? God, another miracle.
 
carla
carla 10 years ago

The only silver lining here is that the Marines are a very tight knit group and they take care of each other. They will not be without family. Maybe not family by blood, but a real family with real love who enjoy the company of each other. In this case, you really can choose your family (and be happy about it). Those parents are missing out and they will be replaced. Those young Marines can tough out even this, painful as it is, they will be taken care of. Shame on those parents.
 
Bangalore
Bangalore 5 years ago

Bttt.

Bangalore
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 5 years ago

Bookmarked for later. Thanx. This looks like wonderful baseline for another 'letter to the editor' for me. Following Danny's lead, I shall contact all the local papers to alert them to this and ask them to run it.
Jeff
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 5 years ago

I missed this the first time around... thanks for bumping! The statement by the parents was obviously carefully worded...probably by someone at hq.
Coffee
 
debator
debator 5 years ago

The Marine quotes john 15:13
John 15:13 (New International Version)
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Yet his military choice would mean he would be killing his brothers in faith simply because they belong to a different nation.
What would happen if two men pointed a gun at each other spoke different languages, were told to kill each other, yet knew they worshiped the same God and where brothers under Jesus God's son? would they still kill each other?
YES, in this world we kill for national wars despite our Faith.
2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
We glamourise war in this world welcoming back the conquering heroes but do we ask them what it felt like to kill another human because you are told too and usually don't even know why?
Some of the worst attrocities this world has known have been done under the heading of "war" and it doesn't solve problems it just creates more. It creates a fear of man that means weapons have to be bigger and better until they become world obliterating things.
 
debator
debator 5 years ago

Hi Robenz
Would you have any simpathy for someone who only became a Nazi because he was born in that country as a German?
It's easy to use the evil that Nazi's did as examples to justify war but in recent years America and England have gone into countries under the Heading of "war" slaughtering countless thousands of men, women and children when those nations haven't even sent one weapon our way. Their "potential" threat was enough or their support of those that did sent the weapons was enough.
When a man is holding his dying child in his arms killed by a bomb dropped by Americans or English because they only thought his leaders had WMD(weapons of mass destruction) who is the monster?
At what point does the conquering hero become a slaughtering monster? When one innocent is killed or two? When you can justify the innocents killed against the end of a war?
It's learning that worldly wars solves nothing it only creates more wars. And we learn this from Jesus and from the Bible the principle of not killing of turning the other cheek.
Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Luke 6:28 (New International Version)
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
 
ProdigalSon
ProdigalSon 5 years ago

Hopefully, as the numbers of disfellowshipped continue to inflate, the negative publicity from their psychotic behavior towards df'd ones will drown them in their own toxic venom.
 
debator
debator 5 years ago

Hi prodigal
Your not bitter, unobjective, dehumanising and biased at all I see....
And if you decided all witnesses where as you described would you justify mass slaughtering them in a war?
 
zoiks
zoiks 5 years ago

Interesting story. I think I remember hearing about this back in the day.

Oh, and I see that Godwin's Law is in full effect today
 
isaacaustin
isaacaustin 5 years ago

ren/bator, It is heartening to see the JW cult exposed more and more. perhaps a benefit of this education will be governments stepping in.
 
NeonMadman
NeonMadman 5 years ago


2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Looks like you cherry-picked the NIV for this verse; other translations make it clear that Paul was talking about spiritual, not physical warfare:

For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. (ESV)
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, (NASB)
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. (Yes, even the NWT).
Read the context. This verse has nothing to do with whether a Christian should serve in the military. It's talking about spiritual warfare against false teachings (notice verse 5).
In Luke 3:14, soldiers came to John the Baptist and asked what they should do (in response to the message he had preached). Did he tell them that their military service was unacceptable to God and that they should resign from the army? No:

Luk 3:14 Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."
Similarly, there is no record that Cornelius was asked to resign as a Roman soldier (even an officer!) in order to be pleasing to God (Acts 10).
Paul used military illustrations constantly (Ephesians 6, for example, but there are many others). Why would he do that if military service were repugnant to God? Can you picture Paul using adultery or murder as an illustration of spiritual virtues? Of course not - but he used military imagery over and over again.
It's true that some historians report that the earliest Christians did not join the military. But why was that? Was it a moral position taken on biblical grounds? Or could it have been that the earliest Christians lived under the Roman empire, which spent a lot of time trying to hunt them down, destroy their scriptures, and throw them into arenas to be eaten by lions? If that was the business in which the army was engaged, one can easily see why the Christians would refrain from joining - not because military service in itself was forbidden, but because the military AT THAT TIME was their greatest enemy.
I see no biblical objection to military service in a nation where the military is not engaged in the persecution of Christians. I respect that other Christians may disagree with my position. What I don't respect is that an organization dictates matters of conscience for its members in a pharisaical fashion and requires parents to shun their children who make a conscientious decision that differs from the organizational position.
 
rocketman
rocketman 5 years ago

We all know that fighting in wars is against jw beliefs. Fine. But the parents still could have at least met their sons upon their arrival. That doesn't in itself mean that they support war - they are simply welcoming their boys home. The parents are taking shunning to the extreme. Many jw parents will see their DA'd/DF'd sons and daughters under far less trying circumstances.
 
debator
debator 5 years ago

Hi neon
lets try some other tranlslations shall we?
2 Corinthians 10:3
GOD'S WORD Translation About GW Of course we are human, but we don't fight like humans. 2 Corinthians 10:3 New Century Version About NCV We do live in the world, but we do not fight in the same way the world fights. 2 Corinthians 10:3 Revised Standard Version About RSV For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, Your being deceptive over the word flesh/world which the bible uses to indicate Mankind apart from God.
it's all in the context.
2 Corinthians 10 (New International Version)
1 By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. Yes he is refering to our spiritual goals now I have never denied this but he also shows that we no longer war or use physical weapons accordng to our fleshly/worldly nature. This is no way negates that fighting as fleshly people is not our way now as Christians.
 
isaacaustin
isaacaustin 5 years ago

-bator, did you graduate 6th grade?
 
ProdigalSon
ProdigalSon 5 years ago

Debator wrote:
Hi prodigal
Your not bitter, unobjective, dehumanising and biased at all I see....
And if you decided all witnesses where as you described would you justify mass slaughtering them in a war?
Unlike JW's, I don't wish harm on anyone. What I wish and pray for is the death of Watchtower, Inc., and any other organization that inhibits the spiritual evolution of mankind.
~PS
 
clarity
clarity 5 years ago

Neutral... my butt! Is there a more a blood thirsty "christian" organization!
All you have to do is just speak to 'the disfellowshipped' and you will be cast out too!
Which means you're condemed to DEATH. And their decision, will make God stop hearing your prayers! lol
They are so not neutral, that they would kill the 'disobedient' except that the Laws of the Land, stop them from doing so.
But their Shunning Policies still do kill ... family, friend, & business relationships. They affect where and how you live. They break to pieces your heart and leave you no hope of future life!
I wish the following quotes could be sent to every newspaper & magazine, not only in the U.S but in Canada also.


w5211/15p.703QuestionsfromReaders***
 Inthecaseofwhereafatherormotherorsonordaughterisdisfellowshiped [disassociated],howshouldsuchpersonbetreatedbymembersofthefamilyintheirfamilyrelationship?—P.C.,Ontario,Canada.
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. . . Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God’s law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation.
 ***w825/15pp.24-25HowYouMustAct!***
No enemy of Jehovah and of Christ the King will survive! The Bible here shows that the mighty ones of the earth—the rulers of the nations, the military leaders, the wealthy business magnates—and all who support them, whether conscripted or volunteers, will have to meet up with Jehovah’s judgment. They will have no way to flee! Their selfish schemes and efforts to preserve this old wicked system will fail. They will be forced to see that heaven’s favor is not upon them.

DannyHaszard



>
Thanks Danny
 
clarity
clarity 5 years ago

So is this a new story or 4 yrs old!
 

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the following newspaper article appears to be the original (and more lengthy and indepth) article from which associated press took their "summarized" (and less informative) story which is being picked up by a number of television stations and newspapers across the u.s. .
this better version should be forwarded to media outlets as a more informative version for their audience.
they also embrace political neutrality.



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BIG WEEKEND JW NEWS STORY EXPOSES HEARTLESS CULT
by West70 10 years ago 41 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower scandals
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jookbeard
jookbeard 5 years ago

Ren/Debator;
you've got some style quoting scripture when your GB and past presidents have the blood of possible tens of thousands on their hands all the way from the Iron Fist rule of J Rutherford ( a Nazi sympathizer) with his ban on vaccinations all the way to Knorr's baby of the Blood Ban and Organ Transplant ban, which also included the banning of his own brethren in Malawi owning ID cards, I always wondered if at the time of the GB convening in secret sessions on the subject of Malawi did homosexual GB members Greenleas and Chitty go away to their respective rooms in "the house of Jehovah" and sodomize and abuse young boys? You lot always make me laugh about the Holy Spirit guiding your GB's decision making!
 
NeonMadman
NeonMadman 5 years ago

Debator:
We can toss different translations of the verse around all day, but the Greek word in the text is a form of sarx, which does not mean "flesh/world," it means FLESH. Any translation that uses "world" there is paraphrasing. This is important because Paul constantly pits the terms "flesh" and "spirit" against each other. In this chapter, Paul is not discussing whether it is appropriate for Christians to join the military service of various nations. He is talking about a spiritual type of warfare. True, we don't "wage war according to the flesh" when we "destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" (v. 5). That is not the sort of warfare where weapons of the flesh are effective (even though, as someone noted above, the WTS has expressed a desire to kill physically those who leave its ranks). FOR THAT PURPOSE, "the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds." This is spiritual warfare being discussed, not the defense of nations. These remarks by Paul have no bearing on whether Christians might serve in the military.
To interpret the text in the way you are trying to do, we must ignore all of the other arguments I mentioned - and I notice that you did ignore them.
Why didn't John the Baptist take advantage of soldiers asking him what they should do to tell them that their profession was unacceptable to God?
Why wasn't Cornelius told to remove himself from any form of military service, even inactive status, before being baptized, as would be required today of anyone who wanted to become a JW? For that matter, why does the policy of the WTS regarding those in military service not conform to the biblical model as demonstrated with Cornelius in Acts 10?
Additionally, Israel was a warrior nation. They fought God's wars and were commanded many times to engage in military action. So it does not appear that God is adverse to His people engaging in military service. Now, it's true that Israel had a special relationship with God as His people, and that Christians are not under the same covenant as they were. Nonetheless, for God to go from REQUIRING His people to engage in warfare to PROHIBITING the same, it seems to me that there should have been a very explicit command and explanation somewhere in the New Testament - just as we are explicitly told that the laws about Sabbath observance and unclean meats no longer applied to Christians. But there is no such reversal with regard to military service.
Again, I don't expect that every Christian will agree with me about this. I can certainly understand why some Christians might take a pacifistic position (though JW's claim not to be pacifists). However, this is clearly an area where there should be room for personal conscience, and it is the Watchtower's unreasonable control, to the point of breaking up families over this issue, that I find to be morally repugnant.
 

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Topic Summary
the following newspaper article appears to be the original (and more lengthy and indepth) article from which associated press took their "summarized" (and less informative) story which is being picked up by a number of television stations and newspapers across the u.s. .
this better version should be forwarded to media outlets as a more informative version for their audience.
they also embrace political neutrality.



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by hardtobeme 8 months ago
Israel Ricky Gonzales
Judicial committee letter to elders
by Israel Ricky Gonzales 8 months ago
jwfacts
New NWT deception at Genesis 8:22 to indicate earth remains forever.
by jwfacts 3 months ago
Saintbertholdt
Everybody loves Raymond
by Saintbertholdt 6 months ago



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Experience with a so called "worldy" person
by mbn36 12 years ago 16 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw experiences
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mbn36
mbn36 12 years ago

I just wanna share an experience of mine, I hope it will help anyone with a related issue. Im 20 years old, I still live with my parents and go to school full-time. For 17 years I was a JW on and off.
When I was 18 I met a lovely girl at work, who just happened to be a Mennonite Christian, what luck eh. The most beautiful and wonderful girl I ever met is the enemy. We both knew are belief differences but still persued a relationship, the draw was just too strong to put aside. After the 1st couple months things were cool and then the ideological fights started and it was like God himself was testing my spirituality. At this point my parents were just deciding to go back to meetings after a year's absence and then they found out about my interest in a certain person that the Borg just wont approve of. Heck if she wasnt religious they probably wouldnt have a beef with her at all, they probably just would've wanted me to slowly reel her in.
Her and I both couldn't take the fact that our relationship wouldnt work with this kind of indifference. She was absolutely sure of her faith and belief, while I was still a little foggy with mine, so she was counting on a change from my side, or rather a decision as long as I was happy with it.
We broke off our relationship after a few months, but a few days later we got back together again, trying to reconile and understand each other, even though we still knew it was hard. Aftter those few days it was almost as if God was telling me, "don't give up on this". I started attending her church to get more details, seeing as how I had never known what modern christians believed in. This was an experience I tell you, I thought they were the biggest bunch of weirdos. Telling my parents about this was the only thing I could do, it was bothering me to much, it brought them to a point of breakdown, seeing as how I was just an apostate to them. My dad threatened to kick me out of the house if I didnt stop going to her church. That night hearing what they had to say about what she believed was so heartbreaking, i dropped to the ground, i lost all feeling in my legs. Even though I couldnt defend my reasoning for going, because I really had trouble believing what they had to say, (eg. trinity, the diff. style of singing and such) I kept it up. Then some weeks later I had seen my dad got into a major depression and with drinking. It didnt help that his dad died just a few weeks before. I had to make a decision. I told her that I was going back to the meetings. She was devastated, and things just broke down, it was almost as if we became bitter enemies. But after I did that, something wasnt right, I didnt want that, my heart didnt want it. I never could step foot in a kingdom hall again, it was a strange sensation, something was almost physically holding me back.
After some talk we got back together, I decided to go to her church again, determined to find something.
Another 6 months later, we came to a point whereI had to make up my mind, I either commit to the JW faith or change to a christian. It was great to be with her but something was saying, this just isnt right, I felt like i was actually going to die for choosing to be with her and not follow the JW's . A few days later where there was still some comm. between me and here, we couldnt stand being apart. We were comparing our bibles, when I started noticing the little differences that the NWT bible has from the NIV version which didnt make logical sense. I prayed to God to help me with it I and asked if he could just come into my life and fix this mess of a faith I had. Almost instantly my mind opened up, I was looking at what the JW's were saying about blood, heavenly hope, and all of there crap and decided THIS ISNT FOR ME.
It felt as if this huge brick came off my chest, I was finally unplugged from the collective. From then on I was born again, I was a new person, I actually had a relationship with Christ. For once religion wasnt just listening to a bunch of old farts continue to rant about being a slave for Jehovahs great and mighty organization. It was about how much love Christ displayed for me in his sacrifice and the freedom he gave me and the rest of humanity. From this point I was able to share my experience with my girlfriend and instantly I could learn and actually believe where she was coming from. I still have some conflicting issues from my childhood, the memories and thoughts just dont completly disappear, i dont think they ever will. It almost feels like im learning to walk again with a replacement pair of legs.
My parents have become more understanding of my situation even thou they still dont fully approve of it. My girlfriend and I have been dating for 2 years now, and I can say I love her to pieces and want to spend the rest of my life with her. As your reading this you may think as a lot of people have, that i was coaxed into this or just doing it to be with her. Your right, for the first few months I was, but from when I decided I didnt want to attend the meetings anymore, I was seriously striving to search for a relationship with god, even at the expense of my girlfriend. I felt so depressed and empty when i was spiritually inactive.
As a christian, life has never been better, the ability for free thought and a relationship with God, is priceless, I still think it is one of the most important things the JW's are missing. Their stupid time slips and magazine placements are the only things that count, its sad really.
Now here I am surviving what I thought was going to kill me. I never ever thought things would turn out the way they did, I thought our relationship was doomed to fail no matter what. I thank God all the time for the strength to persevere when i needed it.
Thanks for listening.
 
kls
kls 12 years ago

Welcome to the forum, your love for this girl is amazing and i am really surprised at your parents decission for you not believing the jws religion, that is great. You sound like a person with a big heart.
 
kls
kls 12 years ago

Mbn36,start a new post and introduce yourself. No one knows who you are.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 12 years ago

All I can think of to say is CONGRATULATIONS!!
It really IS a wonderful feeling when you cast off the shackles of the WTS and experience the freedom in Christ! I am delighted for you---and for the love you have found. What a great story!
hugs,
Annie
 
codeblue
codeblue 12 years ago

Welcome
Very interesting experience and glad that you have some "inner peace"...
 
Nosferatu
Nosferatu 12 years ago

Ah, dating mixed with religion. It's good to hear that it has gone over well with you, and you've actually made the choice to quit the WTS and find happiness in another religion.
The religion struggle in the dating game is a tough one. Personally, I'm happy that I've eliminated religion out of my life, and have found a woman who has done the same. We come from two completely different worlds, but have found ourselves both on common ground.
When I was dating, I found myself with women who were into religion. After I left the JWs, religion was a complete turn-off to me. I ditched a girl I had dated for three days after she gave me a card saying she loved me, and also had mentioned god. Both mentions turned me right off.
Another girl I dated had taken me to her church to listen to the band. The pastor kinda creeped me out with his obsession for taking pictures.
One girl had invited me to her house for Thanksgiving dinner. The house was full of religious statues, pictures, and christian music playing in the background. Her sister and brother-in-law were highly religious, and I felt incredibly uncomfortable.
I tried getting one girl out of religion. She was a wannabe feminist. I showed her some of the very feminist statements in the bible (being unclean after a woman's period), and she was absolutely shocked. I think she gave up on religion in the end.
 
anuva
anuva 12 years ago

dear friend .o am also in same kinda situation and deeply depressed ...but fighting with help of god..
the only diffwerent thing is that ..my Gf is a jw in WTS...and whenever i rememer her restricted life ....i have tears........pray that i also get my love
 
Ciara
Ciara 12 years ago

mbn36,
It's always nice to hear from someone else who hasn't allowed the JW's to jade them on religion as a whole. There is a lot of peace to be found in a true relationship with Christ. Welcome to the forum and I look forward to hearing more from you.
Also welcome, anuva, and good luck in your situation.
Ciara
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 12 years ago

Isn't FREEDOM wonderful..... btw, WELCOME ! Thanks for sharing...I hope you two have a great life together.
 
Snapdragon
Snapdragon 12 years ago

Welcome mbn36 and anuva,
I hope that you both find some answers and some good friends here. I certainly have. mbn, I am pleased that you didn't let go of you love for the girl. If my husband had given up on me before I left, I would have missed one of the largest blessings I've ever had in my life. I hope that your new religion makes you happy.
anuva, hang in there buddy. It ain't easy, but perhaps your girl will see that it is you that truely loves her, not the elders in her congregation.

See you both around,
~Snapdragon
 
Lehaa
Lehaa 12 years ago

Welcome to the board.
I"m so glad things have turned out so well for you.
 
confusedjw
confusedjw 12 years ago

the ability for free thought
This is just crazy. What is the world coming to!
Congrats to you guys. Hang around and help others.
 
cyber-sista
cyber-sista 12 years ago

Congrats to you for being a person true to your own heart! Welcome!
Love,
Cybs
 
czarofmischief
czarofmischief 12 years ago

Ah - the way JW boys can break little worldly girls hearts... I have three crosses to bear in that regard, maybe more... On their account I call down evil upon the WT. May their pain be magnified tenfold upon the hearts of the governing body!
And may the pain burning in my heart over my own foolish choices devour me like a cancer and kill me...
CZAR
 
Satanus
Satanus 12 years ago

mbn36
Mennonite woman, good woman Both my parents grew up as mennonites in the canadian bible belt.
No doubt that christianity is better than jwism. Actually, there are a few similarities between mennonites and jws, at least there used to be. Although, you may have hit one of the more liberal churches. They used to be into the male headship thing, and took the bible quite fundamentally. Other than that, they do a lot of social work all over the world, like teaching people how to farm, digging wells, supporting indigenous culture.
S
 
M.J.
M.J. 12 years ago

anuva,

Be careful in your situation. If things don't swing your way in the faith department, don't cave in...just walk away. In the end it will work out for the better. Believe me.

"Unanswered Prayers"
Garth Brooks
 
iron
iron 12 years ago

Ya know, I dont really know what possessed my to look up JW's on the internet tonight, i just did it. But since Im here Ill tell my story, because now I am the worldly person. I was born and raised as a Jehovah's Witness. From the time I was little I never liked it. And I let it be known from a young age. I never felt it was right and I didnt believe what I was taught. My father left the "truth" when I was about 7 years old and he and my mother were divorced. Dad started a new life later with his second wife and her daughter. I always wanted to get to see my father but my mother told me that he didnt want to see me or my brother and sister. I didnt believe this and finally looked him up in the phone book. We used to talk all the time, secretly of course, mom would not have stood for it. A few years later, dad called us at the house and told me and my brother and sister that he really wanted us in his life, he said he was getting old and needed his children in his life. Well it turned out that he used to call our house and want to speak to his kids but mom told him that we didnt want to talk to him because he wasnt a JW anymore. I guess mom thought she was protecting us. Well when we all talked it over, moms brainwashing had worked on my brother and sister, they wanted nothing to do with dad. But I was different. There was no religion that would keep me from seeing my father that I love so much. So we started visiting regularly on the weekends. I would go to his house and stay there. It was like old times. And his new wife who I really didnt know.....well she was a sweetheart, which was the complete opposite of what my mother told me. All this kinda made me start thinkin that the witnesses dont really adhere to their no lying teachings. Well me and dad continued visiting for a long time. I got the relationship i had wanted with him. When I turned 16, I got a job and dad helped me buy my first truck. Which mom wasnt pleased with at all. She told me he was trying to buy my love and kept telling me how Jehovah didnt want me associating with dad. Well I kept visiting with dad, and driving my truck. A few months later I was visiting with dad one weekend and I went out with some non-witness friends for the night. I wound up meeting this girl I knew from school and started to really like her. Well I started taking her out on the weekend nights when I was with dad, and I intriduced her to my father too. Dad said how proud he was that I had a girlfriend and how pretty shse was.
One saturday i was out and I had this girl with me. Mom just happpend to be out knocking on doorspreaching that day. she spotted me and started following me. When I stopped she came up to the truck and started scolding me for having this worldly girl in my vehicle. It was the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me. Mom told me I was in a lot fo trouble and that she was going to take me inffront of the elders at the kingdom hall. Well to make a long story short, I was told not to keep seeing this girl. But I did anyway. Eventually she caught me with her again and she made me give my truck back to my father. Now i couldnt see my girlfriend that I loved. This made twice that my mother and her religion stood in the way of me seeing someone I loved. That was it for me. I gave the "truth" up completely and moved in with my dad 3 months later. But by this time I had lost my girl and I could understand why. But when I moved in with my father, I lost the rest of my family too. Now they wont have anything to do with me. And my mother tells my little 4 year old half sister that I dont love god, I love satan.
Now to conclude this, I cant see how someone could want to be a part of a religion that breaks up families. I thought that the biggest thing the bible taught was to be a strong family. I guess the JWs missed that part. But I'm fine now. I have a father that is proud of me. Im in the US Army and I serve proudly. I have been to Iraq fighting for freedom, which makes mom hate me even more. But I still know who my real family is...my father, the thousands of other soldiers I serve with, and the millions of Americans I help to protect. And I have new beautiful girlfriend who I love. So all I can say is, If you love family, dont let yourself get sucked into this religion, it will destroy your family. I havent seen mine in over 2 years now.
Iron
 

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President Eisenhower and his Jehovah's Witness background.
by Joker10 13 years ago 14 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
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Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


President Eisenhower's JW Background.
Introduction
The story of the religious upbringing of the Eisenhower boys is critically important in understanding both the Watchtower and the boys themselves. The most dominant religious influence in the Eisenhower home from the time the boys were young was Watchtower theology and beliefs. Both parents were deeply involved and highly committed to much of the Watchtower theology throughout most of their children's formative years. Ida probably took the lead religiously, and David Eisenhower later became disillusioned with many Watchtower teachings; nonetheless the religion also influenced him later in life.
As adults, none of the Eisenhower boys formally followed the Witness teachings and theology and even tried to hide their Jehovah's Witness upbringing. The eldest son, Arthur, once stated that he could not accept the religious dogmas of his parents although he had "his mother's religion" in his heart (Kornitzer, 1955:64).
Although none of Mrs. Eisenhower's boys were what she and other Witnesses called "in the truth," she was hopeful that they would someday again embrace the religion in which they were raised. They openly rejected much of the Watchtower theology and medical ideas, especially its eschatology and millennial teachings. Nonetheless their Witness upbringing clearly influenced them. Even in later life, Dwight preferred "the informal church service" with "vigorous singing and vigorous preaching" like he grew up with (Dodd, 1963:233). Ida was relatively supportive of them during most of their careers, often stating that she was proud of them and their accomplishments, even those achievements that violated her Watchtower faith.



 Born on October 14, 1890 at Denison, Texas, Dwight D. Eisenhower became the thirty-fourth President of the United States. He served for two terms, from 1953 to 1961. His parents, David and Ida Eisenhower, owned a modest two-story white framed house on South 4th Street in Abilene, Kansas. Ida, a frugal hard-working woman, planted a large garden on their three acre lot to raise much of the family's produce needs. Neal claimed that the Eisenhower's were able to feed their growing family only because of this small farm which included cows, chickens, a smokehouse, fruit trees and a large vegetable garden (Neal, 1984). Dwight and his five brothers (Arthur (b. 1886), Roy (b. 1892), Earl (b. 1898), and Milton (b. 1899) plus David) were raised in Abilene, Kansas.
The values of Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower's parents and their home environment reflected themselves in the enormous success of all of their children. Probably the most dominant influence in the Eisenhower home was religion, primarily the Jehovah's Witnesses (known as Bible Students until 1931) and to a much lesser extent the River Brethren (Dodd, 1994).
Both parents were active in the Watchtower during most of the Eisenhower children's formative years. Eisenhower's mother, Ida Eisenhower, stated she became involved with the Watchtower in 1895 when she was 34 and Dwight was only five years old (Cole, 1955:190). Ida was baptized in 1898, meaning she was then a Jehovah's Witnesses minister.
Furthermore, Ida did not flirt with her involvement in the Witnesses as claimed by some but "was a faithful member of Jehovah's Witnesses for 50 years" (Fleming 1955:1). In Dwight's words she had "an inflexible loyalty to her religious convictions." According to the current Watchtower president Milton G. Henshel, "Ida Eisenhower was one of the most energetic [Watchtower] preachers in Abilene" (Fleming, 1955:1). The Watchtower Society had a major religious influence on Dwight until 1914 when he went to West Point (Dodd, 1959; Eisenhower, 1969).



Ida grew up in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley and originally attended a Lutheran Church. Hutchinson concluded Ida showed a "deep interest in religion from her earliest years" (1954:364). As a school girl Ida studied the Bible extensively and quoted freely from it--she once memorized 1,365 Biblical verses in six months, a fact cited with pride by several of her sons (Neal, 1984:13). The Sunday school records in the Lutheran Church at Mount Sidney near Staunton, Virginia, still contain her Bible memorizing record.
Eisenhower's parents met when they were both students at a small United Brethren college in Lecompton, Kansas called Lane University. After they married at Lecompton on September 23, 1885, they both dropped out of college (Hatch, 1944). Although they each completed only one term, their desire for education persisted--and reflected itself in their strong support for their sons' educations (Kornitzer, 1955). Evidently it was Ida's husband who introduced Ida to the group popularly called River Brethren partly because many of his relatives were involved in this community.
Neither David or Ida ever became deeply involved in this sect, although, it is often incorrectly stated that "Ida and David Eisenhower were River Brethren" (Miller, 1987:77-78). David's father Jacob and his brothers Ira and Abraham were members, but Ike's cousin, the Reverend Ray L. Witter, son of A.L. Witter, claimed that, although Ida and David came to Brethren services for several years, neither was ever an actual member nor did they regularly attend for any length of time (Miller, 1987:77-78; Dodd, 1959:221).
Close family friend R.C. Tonkin even stated that he "never knew any of the family to attend the River Brethren Church" (Tonkin, 1952:48). Both church records and oral history indicate that Dwight attended around 1906 for less than a year (Sider, 1994). Note: The term River Brethren is commonly used in the literature which discusses President Eisenhower, but the officially registered name during the Civil War and after is The Brethren in Christ Church. The term River Brethren is used here because virtually all references to Eisenhower's religion use this term. This term caught on because the first churches were located near rivers.
Evidence that Dwight may have occasionally attended Sunday school at Abilene's River Brethren Church includes the claim by John Dayhoff (listed in the 1906 church records as a member of Dwight's class) that he went to Sunday school with him. When Dwight did attend according to the regular teacher, Ida Hoffman, he evidently "never seemed to pay any attention or take any interest in the lesson" (Davis, 1952:49). Three of the Eisenhower children including Dwight are listed in the 1906 Souvenir Report of the Brethren Sunday School of Abilene, Kansas as involved in the church, but no mention is made of their parents. The listing of the three boys was likely partly due to the influence of Jacob, Dwight's grandfather, an active River Brethren Church minister until his death in May of 1906.
When David's Uncle Abraham, a self-taught veterinarian, decided to became an itinerant preacher he rented his house to David on the condition that Jacob could live there (Lyon, 1974; Dodd, 1963). David Eisenhower's family then moved into Abraham's house at 201 Southeast Fourth Street. David was also connected with the River Brethren through his employment at the church-owned Bella Springs Creamery. He worked at the Creamery from the time he moved to Abilene until he retired (Ambrose, 1983:19-20).
The many other relatives and friends who were River Brethren also likely had some influence on Dwight's religious development. He was physically and emotionally surrounded by aunts, uncles, grandfathers and a great-grandfather, most of whom were lay members or preachers in one of the Brethren or Holiness sects (Dodd, 1994). Gladys Dodd concluded the Brethren, whom Dwight joined on occasion for worship, "were a clannish lot, glued together by common ties of unique appearance and modes of baptism, abhorrence of war, and the like" (Dodd, 1994:1).




A major catalyst that precipitated Dwight's parents leaving the River Brethren and joining the Watchtower involved Ike's eight-month old brother, Paul, who died of diphtheria in 1895. This tragedy devastated the Eisenhower's, and the theological explanation that Paul is in heaven provided by the River Brethren did not satisfy them. At this time, three neighborhood women were able to comfort the Eisenhower's with the hope that they would soon see their son. This comfort was the Russellite teaching that death was merely sleep, and that all those in the grave will be resurrected shortly. In 1895 it was taught that this resurrection would occur in the new world which was expected to arrive before 1914, a mere nine years away then (Gruss, 1976). The three women - Mrs. Clara Witt, Mrs. Mary Thayer, and Mrs. Emma Holland - also sold Ida a set of volumes which were then titled Millennial Dawn (later renamed Studies in the Scriptures) and a subscription to Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, now named The Watchtower. Ida soon became involved and influenced her husband to join a short time later.
David and Ida's interest in Armageddon (the war the Watchtower teaches God will destroy all of the wicked, i.e. all non Witnesses) and the imminent return of Christ was highly influenced by the Watchtower preoccupation with end times events, especially the date of Armageddon. Likely, too, other acquaintances aside from Watchtower followers shared an interest in end-times date predicting including by their uncles Abraham and Ira, both of whom were evidently influenced by the end-times date speculation of the Tabor, Iowa evangelistic sect called the Hephzibah Faith Missionary Association (Dodd, 1994:2).
Dodd concluded from her extensive study of the Eisenhower family religious involvement that Ida soon became a "faithful and dedicated Witness and actively engaged as [a] colporteur [missionary] for the Watch Tower Society until her death" (Dodd, 1959:245). Soon the force that dominated the lives of everyone who lived in the Eisenhower frame house in Abilene was religion (Kornitzer, 1955:134). Dwight Eisenhower's faith was "rooted in his parents' Biblical heritage," and the Eisenhower boys' upbringing was "steeped" in religion (Fox 1969:907; Lyon, 1974:38).
The Eisenhower's held weekly Watchtower meetings in their parlor where the boys took turns reading from and discussing Watchtower publications and Scripture. Dwight Eisenhower was also involved in these studies--he claimed that he had read the Bible completely through twice before he was eighteen (Jameson, 1969:9). Ambrose concluded that the degree of religious involvement of the Eisenhower boys was so extensive that
David read from the Bible before meals, then asked a blessing. After dinner, he brought out the Bible again. When the boys grew old enough, they took turns reading. Ida organized meetings of the ... Watchtower Society, which met on Sundays in her parlor. She played her piano and led the singing. Neither David nor Ida ever smoked or drank, or played cards, or swore, or gambled (Ambrose 1983:19-20).
This upbringing no doubt had a major influence on all of the Eisenhower boys. R.G. Tonkin estimated that when the Eisenhower boys were young the size of the class was "about fifteen people" (1952:48).
The Watchtower followers met in Eisenhower's home until 1915 when the growth of the local congregation forced them to rent a local hall for their services. Later a large Watchtower meeting house (now called a Kingdom Hall) was built in Abilene (Dodd, 1959:244). The composition of early Russellite group in Abilene is described by Dodd as follows:
Mary Thayer first introduced the Watch Tower to the Eisenhower's. This company together with L.D. Toliver and the R.O. Southworths constituted the nucleus of the Abilene congregation of Russellites. From 1896 until 1915, the Bible Students ... met on Sunday afternoons at the Eisenhower home for their meetings. During most of this twenty year period, David Eisenhower (and occasionally L.D. Toliver) served the class as the Bible-study conductor, or "elder" as the group called its leader (1959:236).
Ida remained active in the Watchtower her whole life. In a letter to a fellow Witness Ida stated she has "been in the truth since ninety six [1896 and I] ... am still in ... it has been a comfort to me ... Naomi Engle stay [sic] with me and she is a witness too so my hope [sic] are good" (Fleming, 1955:3; Cole, 1955:192).



Dwight was also influenced by the religious ideas of his father, David Eisenhower. Although his early upbringing was in the River Brethren and he briefly attended the Lutheran, then later the Methodist church before and during his college days, he converted to the Watchtower a few years after his wife did. David Eisenhower actively served the Watchtower for many years as an elder and Bible study conductor, a role which he occasionally alternated with L.D. Toliver (Dodd, 1959:225). Neal even claimed that David Eisenhower was led by the Watchtower into "mysticism" because of David's use of "an enormous wall chart" of the Egyptian pyramids to predict the future. David taught his boys Watchtower last-days theology from this chart when they were growing up. The ten feet high and six feet wide chart "according to David . . . contained prophecies for the future as well as confirmation of biblical events. Captivated by the bizarre drawing . . . [Dwight] spent hours studying David's creation" (Neal, 1984:13).
This pyramid chart was of the Pyramid of Giza in Egypt and in fact was a central teaching of the Bible Students (Dodd, 1959:242). The chart was first published by the Watchtower in Millennial Dawn, Vol. 1 in 1898 and a large wall size version was available later. The chart played a prominent role in Watchtower theology for more than 35 years and was of such importance to David that his
. . . religious beliefs materialized in the form of an impressive (five or six feet high, ten feet long) wall chart of the Egyptian pyramids, by means of which he proved to his own satisfaction that the lines of the pyramids--outer dimensions, inner passageways, angles of chambers, and so on--prophesied later Biblical events and other events still in the future. As might be expected, this demonstration fascinated his children; the chart came to be one of the family's most prized possessions (Lyon, 1974:38).
Russell obtained from the Pyramid many of his prophesies, especially the year 1914 when the end of the world was expected to occur (Franz, 1993:20). The pyramid was also used to confirm Watchtower dispensational theology. Earl Eisenhower claimed that his father used the chart when he was in the Watchtower to prove "to his own satisfaction that the Bible was right in its prophecies" (Kornitzer, 1955:136).
The pyramid was of such major importance to early Watchtower theology that a huge ten foot concrete pyramid was selected as a fitting memorial to C. T. Russell when he died. It still stands close to Russell's grave near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Russell specifically condemned mysticism as demonism and taught that the pyramid had nothing to do with mysticism but was a second revelation, a "Bible in stone" which both added to and confirmed the Holy Scripture record (Russell, 1904:313-376).
A few years later, the second president of the Watchtower, Joseph F. Rutherford, condemned the pyramid teaching in no uncertain terms, one of many of his doctrinal changes that initiated several Watchtower schisms (Rutherford, 1928; Dodd, 1959:243). Dodd noted that the chart was still in the family home as late as 1944, but in 1957 she could no longer locate it in either the family home or the Eisenhower museum nearby and learned that the chart and other Watchtower effects were disposed of (Dodd, 1959:242-243). Dodd concluded the Watchtower items were probably destroyed by the family to reduce their embarrassment over their parents' involvement in the Jehovah's Witnesses. David's commitment to the Watchtower eventually changed and later he openly became an opposer.
Dodd concludes that "by 1919 David Eisenhower's interest in Russell had definitely waned and before his death in 1942 he is said to have renounced the doctrine of Russell" (1959:224). In a letter to Edward Ford, David stated that one factor causing his disillusionment with the Watchtower was the failure of their end of the world prophecies including 1914 and 1915 (Ford, 1995). After he left the Watchtower fellowship, his son Arthur claimed that David remained a student of the Scriptures, and his religious "reading habits were confined to the Bible, or anything related to the Bible" but not Watchtower literature. Although, the Bible was central to David Eisenhower's thinking, Milton added that his father also "read history, serious magazines, newspapers, and religion literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:261).
Edgar Eisenhower stated that his father left the Watchtower partly because he "couldn't go along with the sheer dogma that was so much a part of their thinking." His sons later adamantly claimed that David accompanied his wife on Watchtower activities primarily in an effort to appease her. Watchtower accounts usually referred only to Ida as a Witness, supporting the conclusion that David had left the Watchtower after 1915.
David Eisenhower died in March of 1942 at the age of 78. At this time Ida's nurse, Naomi Engle, was, "a strong-willed Witness who arranged a Jehovah's Witness funeral for David even though he had made it clear before his death that he was no longer a [Watchtower] believer" (Miller, 1987:80). The service was conducted by Witness James L. Thayer assisted by another Witness, Fred K. Southworth.




The Eisenhower's Watchtower involvement created many family conflicts. The Russellites taught that the Brethren and all other churches were not pleasing to God. Their second president, lawyer Joseph F. Rutherford (1916-1942), viciously attacked all religion with slogans such as all "religion is a snare and a racket" (Dodd, 1959). The Watchtower under Rutherford even taught all priests and ministers are of Satan leading their flocks to eternal damnation (Bergman, 1999). As a result of this and other teachings, Dodd observed that the River Brethren and other denominations at the turn of the century:
... were rabidly opposed to Russellism. As late as 1913 ... the Evangelical Visitor advertised a pamphlet entitled "The Blasphemous Religion which teaches the Annihilation of Jesus Christ" as the "best yet publication against Russellism" and the editor thought every River Brethren minister should read it. In 1928, one of the Brethren ministers, Abraham Eisenhower (David's brother), wrote to the Evangelical Visitor concerning Russellism: "Oh, fool-hearted nonsense. It is the devil's asbestos blanket to cover up the realities of a hell fire judgment. The word of God will tear off this infamous lie and expose the realities of an existence of life after death." This strong statement would reflect the general attitude of most of the Eisenhower's (Dodd, 1959:246).
The River Brethren have much in common with the Mennonites, and both were once called "the plain people" because of their simple lifestyle and dress. Although the sect has generally modernized and even in the early 1900s they no longer placed as much emphasis on details of clothing as formerly, they were still comparatively strict in the 1800s. Marriage could be dissolved only by death, hard physical work was a prime virtue, and after the turn of the century members could not use or even grow tobacco.
The early Watchtower teachings were also similar in some ways to the River Brethren, both of which have in major ways changed since the Eisenhower's became involved in 1895 (Dodd, 1959). Furthermore, "a number of the River Brethren had become followers of Russell" (Dodd, 1959:234). Although major differences existed especially in doctrine, the many similarities include both groups were pietistic Protestant conservative sects opposed to war, although on somewhat different grounds. Both sects also stressed the importance of Biblical study, both condemned many worldly habits and both were then very concerned about the last days prophesy and eschatology.




Dwights religious background is discussed by many writers, but most contain much misinformation. The misinformation about the religion of Dwight's parents is compounded by the fact that many Eisenhower biographies and even writings by the Eisenhower sons often declined to fully and honestly acknowledge their parents' actual religious affiliation (Fleming, 1955:1; Eisenhower, 1969). In a collection of personal recollections Edgar Eisenhower admitted only
Our parents' religious interests switched to a sect known as the Bible Students. The meetings were held at our house, and everyone made his own interpretation of the Scripture lessons. Mother played the piano, and they sang hymns before and after each meeting. It was a real old time prayer meeting. They talked to God, read Scriptures, and everyone got a chance to state his relationship with Him. Their ideas of religion were straightforward and simple. I have never forgotten those Scripture lessons, nor the influence they have had on my life. Simple people taking a simple approach to God. We couldn't have forgotten because mother impressed those creeds deep in our memories. Even after I had grown up, every letter I received from her, until the day she died, ended with a passage from the Bible (McCullun, 1960:21).
Even President Eisenhower's spiritual mentor and close friend, Billy Graham, was led to believe that Eisenhower's parents "had been River Brethren, a small but devoutly pious group in the Mennonite tradition." Many authors referred to the Watchtower faith only as "fundamentalists" or "Bible students," the latter term the Jehovah's Witnesses used only up until 1931 (Beschloss, 1990; Knorr, 1955). Lyon even stated
The specific nature of the religion is uncertain. The parents appear to have left the River Brethren for a more primitive and austere sect, something referred to as the Bible Students, and they would later gravitate to the evangelical sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses (Lyon, 1974:38).
Bela Kornitzer mentions only that the Eisenhower's were "Bible Students," had "fundamentalist religious beliefs" and studied "the writings of 'Pastor Russell'" but does not mention that Russell was the Watchtower founder (1955:14, 22, 32). (When Russell died in 1916 his writings were almost immediately replaced those of the new president, "Judge" J.F. Rutherford, resulting in several major schisms in the movement and their transformation into Jehovah's Witnesses).
Even works that include extensive discussions of Eisenhower's religious upbringing, such as the aforementioned Bela Kornitzer's book, discuss primarily his River Brethren religious background which had influenced Dwight primarily during his preschool years, if at all.
A Drew Pearson column stated that President Eisenhower's mother "once sold Bible tracts for the Jehovah's Witnesses," implying that she only flirted with the Witnesses and was never deeply involved (1956:6). Edmund Fuller and David Green, after claiming that Eisenhower's parents were River Brethren, noted that the President's grandfather was the Reverend Jacob Eisenhower, a Brethren minister, and that "the Eisenhower boys' religious training was strict, fundamentalist, and somewhat Puritanical. They were well schooled in Scripture" (1968:213).
Even more common is to totally omit the name of the predominant religion that Dwight was raised in and its importance in the Eisenhower boy's formative years (For example see Larson, 1968). In one of the most detailed histories of Eisenhower's early life, Davis said only that Ida later "sought out an even more 'primitive' and rigid Christianity" than River Brethren, leaving the reader up in the air as to what this group might be (1952:111). An extensive search by the author of the major depositories of President Eisenhower's letters and papers revealed he wrote virtually nothing about his feelings about the Watchtower or even religion in general except that reviewed here.
The Eisenhower boys' Watchtower background is not widely known or acknowledged likely also in part due to the antagonism many people had then, and still have today, against the Watchtower (Sellers, 1990). This antagonism is illustrated in the wording of a quote claiming that "late in life" Ida became, "of all things, a member of the sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses..." (Gunther, 1951:52).
Accounts of the Eisenhower family history commonly repeat the claim that Dwight's parents were River Brethren or were not directly involved with the Watchtower (Miller, 1944). Typical is a Time article that stated only that Ike's "parents were members of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect," adding that "along with their piety, the Eisenhower's gave their sons a creed of self-starting individualism" (Time, Apr. 4, 1969:20). Another account claims that Eisenhower's parents were members of a Protestant sect called the River Brethren and brought up their children in an old-fashioned atmosphere of puritanical morals. Prayer and Bible reading were a daily part of their lives. Violence was forbidden, though in a family of six boys the edict was a bit hard to enforce (Whitney, 1967:311).




According to Pearson, when confronted with his religious ancestry, David Eisenhower looked for a
delicate way to clear the family name of this affiliation. He is sensitive about the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in saluting the flag or serving under arms. At the same time, he doesn't want to appear prejudiced against any religious sect. Both Ike and his brother, Milton, have discussed the problem with spiritual advisors. But they haven't quite figured out how to disclaim Ida Eisenhower's relations with the Jehovah's Witnesses without offending the sect and perhaps stirring up charges of religious prejudice (Pearson, 1956:6).
Pearson also adds the often repeated claim that "Ida was influenced in her old age by a nurse who belonged to the sect. Being Bible-minded, old Mrs. Eisenhower cheerfully agreed to help the Jehovah's Witnesses peddle Bible tracts. Actually, both of Dwight's parents were staunch members of a small sect called River Brethren" (Pearson, 1956:6). Ironically in a Drew Pearson column published only three months earlier, Jack Anderson said, "Ike is strangely sensitive about his parents' religion. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, though the authorized biographies call them 'River Brethren....'
Both Dwight and his brother Milton checked the manuscript of Bela Kornitzer's book, 'Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers.' Afterward Milton privately asked Kornitzer to delete a reference to their parents' membership in the Witnesses sect" (Anderson, 1956:16b). In one of the last interviews given by the family, Milton said only that "we were raised as a fundamentalist family. Mother and father knew the Bible from one end to the other" (Quoted in Freeze, 1975:25). The Watchtower's response to this common omission was as follows:
Though Time magazine claimed Ida Stover Eisenhower was a member of the River Brethren, a Mennonite sect, Time was merely continuing its consistent policy of slander in all that pertains to Jehovah's witnesses. She was never a River Brethren. She was one of Jehovah's witnesses. The first study in the Watchtower magazine in Abilene, Kans., started in her home in 1895. Her home was the meeting-place till 1915, when a hall was obtained. She continued a regular publisher with Jehovah's witnesses till 1942, when failing health rendered her inactive; but she remained a staunch believer (Knorr, 1946:7).
Kornitzer specifically endeavored to determine the source of Dwight Eisenhower's "greatness," concluding that it came from his family and their values. In Dwight's words, his mother was "deeply religious," and he once stated that his mother
had gravitated toward a local group known as The Bible Class. In this group, which had no church minister, she was happy. Sunday meetings were always held in the homes of members, including ours. The unusual program of worship included hymns, for which mother played the piano, and prayers, with the rest of the time devoted to group discussion of a selected chapter of the Bible (1967:305)..
Although the group preferred the label Bible Students before 1931, when they met they usually did not study the Bible but primarily Watchtower publications.
In the early 1900s the study focus was a set of books called Studies in the Scriptures written by C.T. Russell and his wife, and also the current issues of The Watchtower magazine. Although the Eisenhower boys usually skirted around the issue of their religious upbringing, Dwight Eisenhower once openly acknowledged that the group his parents were involved with was the Jehovah's Witnesses:
there was, eventually, a kind of loose association with similar groups throughout the country ... chiefly through a subscription to a religious periodical, The Watchtower. After I left home for the Army, these groups were drawn closer together and finally adopted the name of Jehovah's Witnesses (1967:305).
Eisenhower then adds, "They were true conscientious objectors to war. Though none of her sons could accept her conviction in this matter, she refused to try to push her beliefs on us just as she refused to modify her own" (1967:305). Conversely Dwight's mother was not happy about her sons violation of Watchtower beliefs especially their attitudes toward war.
Many reporters termed Dwight's mother "a religious pacifist" (for example see Life Magazine, 1969) as Dwight did. The Watchtower has established in the courts that they are not pacifists but conscientious objectors, opposed only to wars initiated and carried out by humans. The Watchtower teaches that involvement in war, except those that God wants us to fight, is not only a violation of God's law that "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shall love thy neighbor" but is also wrong because Watchtower doctrine considers it an improper use of time in these last days before Armageddon. They taught their followers to be dedicated to converting others before the end, which since the late 1800s has been taught by the Watchtower to be "just around the corner." They are in their words "conditional pacifists" although the Watchtower often argues against all war on pacifist grounds. In Dwight's words, his mother "was opposed to militarism because of her religious beliefs" (Kornitzer, 1955:87).
Jehovah's Witnesses then also eschewed all political involvement because they felt--and still teach today--that the soon-to-be-established kingdom of God on earth--the millennium--was the only solution to all worldly problems (Kornitzer, 1955:276). In Milton Eisenhower's words, his parents were as good Jehovah's Witnesses "more concerned with the millennium which, unfortunately, hadn't come in their day, than they were with contemporary social institutions" (Kornitzer, 1955:278). All of the Eisenhower boys disagreed with the Watchtower view in this area. Milton also stated his parents were aloof from politics but ". . . as I became older, I used to hold many conversations with them in a futile attempt to show them that they were wrong" (Kornitzer, 1955:277). Of course, as Watchtower followers, Ida and, until he left, David were not allowed to be involved in politics--even voting became a disfellowshipping offense in the 1940's.
Often Ida's alleged pacifism is given as the reason for her opposition to Ike's military career when the actual reason was Watchtower theology. An example was her reaction to his leaving for West Point in the summer of 1911, as reported by Pickett. At this time Dwight's
. . . mother and twelve-year-old brother Milton were the only family members there to see him off. His mother was unable to say a thing, Milton remembered, "I went out on the west porch with mother as Ike started uptown, carrying his suitcase, to take the train. Mother stood there like a stone statue and I stood right by her until Ike was out of sight. Then she came in and went to her room and bawled" (Pickett, 1995:8).
Alden Hatch, after recounting the consternation Ida had over Dwight attending West Point--to the extent she hoped he would fail the entrance exam so he would not go, claims that the reason was her "abhorrence to war" (Hatch, 1944:21). Ida's opposition was actually for several reasons, and consequently she hid from her sons her "weakened faith" and "grief" that resulted from Ike's pursuing a military career. The Eisenhower sons' embarrassment about their parents' involvement in the Watchtower is vividly revealed in the following account:
Both Ida and David, but especially Ida, were avid readers of The Watchtower, and at the time of Ida's death there was a fifty-year collection in the house on South East Fourth Street. The publication had arrived by mail from 1896 to 1946. It was Milton who bundled up the fifty-year collection of the presumably embarrassing magazines and got them out of the Eisenhower house and away from the eyes of reporters. He gave them to a neighbor and Witness (Miller, 1987:79).
The neighbor was Mrs. James L. Thayer, one of the women that originally converted Mrs. Eisenhower. The disposal of Dwight's parent's Watchtower literature, charts and other Watchtower items was only one indication of the many conflicts the Eisenhower boys likely experienced over their parent's esoteric religion. These conflicts may be one reason why none of them ever became involved in the Watchtower or even a fundamentalist church.
Another account illustrates the press' tendency to avoid revealing the Eisenhower parents' Watchtower involvement. When Ike graduated from West Point Military Academy in 1915, his mother presented to him a copy of the American Standard version of the Bible used by the Watchtower because it consistently used the term "Jehovah" for God. When Ike was sworn in as president for his second term, this Bible was used (see photograph London Daily News Feb 2, 1957:1). The press reports of this account, though, usually did not quote the words the President actually read which were "Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah" but instead substituting the word "Lord" for "Jehovah." The Watchtower concluded that this misquote was an attempt to distance President Eisenhower from his parents' faith by not using a term that was at this time intimately connected with the Jehovah's Witnesses sect (Knorr, 1957:323-324).
Why were the Eisenhower's (and the press) so reticent about honestly revealing the religion of their parents? One reason is revealed in an article published in the official Watchtower magazine called Awake!
On September 11, 1946, Mrs. Ida Stover Eisenhower died in Abilene, Kans. Private services were conducted at the home, and public services were handled by an army chaplain from Ft. Riley. Was that in respect for Mrs. Eisenhower? Pallbearers were three American Legionnaires and three Veterans of Foreign Wars. Was that appropriate? ... In 1942 her husband, also one of Jehovah's witnesses, died. One of Jehovah's witnesses preached the funeral service. Mrs. I.S. Eisenhower, like all Jehovah's witnesses, believed religion a racket and the clergy in general, including army chaplains, to be hypocrites. She harbored no special pride for "General Ike;" she was opposed to his West Point appointment. It was gross disrespect to the deceased for an army chaplain to officiate at the funeral.
As for the pallbearers. The American Legion particularly, and also the Veterans of Foreign Wars, are repeatedly ringleaders in mob violence against Jehovah's witnesses. Hundreds of instances could be cited, but illustrative is the one occurring the Sunday before Mrs. Eisenhower's death, in near-by Iowa. There war veterans broke up a public Bible meeting of Jehovah's witnesses, doing much physical violence. Hardly appropriate, then, was it, for such to act as pallbearers? Only death could keep the body of Mrs. Eisenhower from walking away from a funeral so disrespectful of all that she stood for (Knorr, 1946:7).
Unfortunately, this article did not discuss how the Watchtower's teachings and policy on military service, education and involvement in "false religion" contributed to the conflicts noted in the above quote. Dwight's religious orientation as an adult was described as "moderate and tolerant, simple and firm," quite in contrast to the confrontative, pugnacious Watchtower sect of the first half of this century (Fox, 1969:907).
Other reasons for the press' and the Eisenhower boys' lack of honesty about their Watchtower background include embarrassment over the Watchtower's opposition to the flag salute and all patriotic activities, vaccinations and medicine in general, the germ theory and their advocating many ineffectual medical "cures" including phrenology, radio solar pads, radiesthesia, radionics, iridiagnosis, the grape cure, and their staunch opposition to the use of aluminum cooking utensils and Fluoridation of drinking water. Dwight Eisenhower had good reasons to hide his Watchtower background when he ran for president. Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president:
Both Eisenhower and Stevenson were vigorously challenged by some Protestant[s]...for their religious ties. The association of Eisenhower's mother with the Jehovah's Witnesses was exploited to make the GOP candidate appear as an "anti-Christian cultist" and a "foe of patriotism" (Roy, 1953).
The thesis that the Eisenhower boys were embarrassed by their parents' Watchtower involvement is supported by the problem which developed when the Watchtower tried to exploit Mrs. Eisenhower's name for their advantage. One reason for the Eisenhower boys' concern was because Jehovah's Witnesses were generally scorned by most churches and society in general, especially at the turn of the century. Virtually no college-educated people were members, and the education level even today is still extremely low, among the lowest of all religious denominations (Cosmin and Lachman, 1993). A problem that the Eisenhower boys faced in the 1940s, according to Edgar Eisenhower, was that "the deep, sincere and even evangelical religious fervor" of their mother was used by the Watchtower "to exploit her in her old age" (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This concern prompted Edgar to write a letter in 1944 to the Jehovah's Witness who was caring for his mother when she was 82. As was the practice then for all members, young and old--and as Jehovah's Witnesses today are well known for-- Witnesses go from door-to-door and "witness" on the street corners, primarily by selling their literature. Edgar evidently felt that the Eisenhower name was being exploited in this work and objected to his mother "being taken out of the home and used for the purpose of distributing [Watchtower] religious literature" (Kornitzer, 1955:139). Edgar added that he was "willing to fight" for his mother's "right to continue to believe as she saw fit, but ... she could be easily and mistakenly influenced in performing any service which would be represented to her as helpful to the advancement of religious beliefs" of the Watchtower (Kornitzer, 1955:139). His concern was that his mother should no longer
be taken from place to place and exhibited as the mother of General Eisenhower--solely for the purpose of attempting to influence anyone [to accept the Watchtower beliefs] ... I want mother shielded and protected and not exposed or exhibited ... mother's home should be maintained solely for her intimate friends and relatives and ... no stranger should be permitted to live in the house regardless of who he may be ... (Kornitzer, 1955:139).
This problem was eventually solved by removing the Jehovah's Witness who was then caring for Ida Eisenhower, Naomi Engle, a lifelong friend and certainly no stranger to Ida, from Ida's home and replacing her with a Mrs. Robinson, a non-Witness. Would Edgar have objected if Ida was allowed to use the Eisenhower name for a cause such as education, health or even a church such as the Lutherans or Methodists? Part of what he likely objected to was what he felt was the Watchtower exploiting her to spread a set of beliefs that he and his brothers firmly and openly disagreed with, i.e., the Watchtower Millennial theology.




When researching Eisenhower's religion "Since so little original documentation exists, most historians have relied on interviews with persons who knew David and Ida" (Branigar 1994:1). Of the large amount of information available, one has to determine which conclusions were historically accurate--sometimes no easy task. One of the most reliable sources is Gladys Dodd's thesis because she used scores of personal interviews with the family, many of whom she was personally acquainted with, to study the religious background of the Eisenhower family in the late 1950s. Unfortunately, some Watchtower sources are questionable.
Dr. Holt, the director of the Dwight D. Eisenhower library in Abilene, Kansas indicates that the Watchtower may be involved in passing documents off as real which are evidently forgeries (1999). Specifically, interviews with family members has led J. Earl Endacott, a former Eisenhower library curator, to conclude that it was a 1944 incident which led to the dismissal of Ida's nurse, Mrs. Engle, who was then an active Jehovah's Witness.
The source of this information was Mrs. Robinson, who became Ida's nurse after Engle's dismissal. She claimed that Engle and another Witness conned Ida to write her name several times on a blank sheet of paper under the pretense of giving her "practice." According to Mrs. Robinson, the most legible signature was then physically cut from the sheet and pasted on the bottom of the letter to Mr. Boeckel which was not written by Mrs. Eisenhower but by Engle. Endacott concluded Engle had "more loyalty to the Witnesses" than to the Eisenhower's to whom she was distantly related. Later "in one of her lucid moments Ida told Mrs. Robinson what had happened and gave the sheet with the cut out name to her. When the Eisenhower foundation took over the home, Mrs. Robinson told me the story and gave me the sheet which I still have" (Endacott, N.D.).
This letter she allegedly wrote was to a Richard Boeckel, a young man who had become a Jehovah's Witness while still in the army (Boeckel, 1980). In August of 1944 Boeckel attended a Watchtower assembly in Denver where he met Lotta Thayer, Ida's neighbor from Abilene. In his conversations with her, Boeckel explained the difficulty of being a Witness in a military environment. Thayer then reportedly told him that her neighbor was General Eisenhower's mother, and added that "she's one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and asked Boeckel if he would like her to write to him (Knorr, 1980:24-29). Boeckel wrote Ida, and part of the letter Ida allegedly wrote back to him stated,
A friend returning from the United Announcers Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, informs me of meeting you there. I rejoice with you in your privilege of attending such convention. It has been my good fortune in the years gone by to attend these meetings of those faithfully proclaiming the name of Jehovah and his glorious kingdom which shortly now will pour out its rich blessings all over the earth. My friend informs me of your desire to have a word from General Eisenhower's mother whom you have been told is one of the witnesses of Jehovah. I am indeed such and what a glorious privilege it has been in associating with [other Witnesses]. . . . Generally I have refused such requests because of my desire to avoid all publicity. However, because you are a person of good will towards Jehovah God and His glorious Theocracy I am very happy to write you. . . . It was always my desire and my effort to raise my boys in the knowledge of and to reverence their Creator. My prayer is that they all may anchor their hope in the New World, the central feature of which is the Kingdom for which all good people have been praying the past two thousand years. I feel that Dwight my third son will always strive to do his duty with integrity as he sees such duty. I mention him in particular because of your expressed interest in him. And so as the mother of General Eisenhower and as a Witness of and for the Great Jehovah of Hosts (I have been such for the past 49 years) I am pleased to write you and to urge you to faithfulness, as a companion of and servant with those who "keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Quoted in Cole, 1955:194-195).
To encourage Boeckel to accept Watchtower doctrines, the letter mentioned several current events which the Watchtower then taught was evidence that Armageddon would occur very soon, concluding that "Surely this portends that very soon the glorious Theocracy, the long promised kingdom of Jehovah...will rule the entire earth and pour out manifold blessings upon all peoples who are of good will towards Him. All others will be removed [killed at Armageddon]. Again, may I urge your ever faithfulness to these 'Higher Powers' and to the New World now so very near." The letter dated August 20, 1944, evidently had the taped signature "Ida Eisenhower" affixed to it and closed with "Respectfully yours in hope of and as a fighter for the New World" (Cole, 1955:191).
This Ida Eisenhower letter, Endacott concluded, was "not in the words of Ida, who at the time could hardly write her own name" and evidentially she was not always mentally alert although her physical health was good. Her memory started to fail soon after her husband died and was at times so poor that she could not even remember her own son's names (Eisenhower, 1974:188). Furthermore, this letter is very well written quite in contrast to the letter she wrote in her own hand dated 1943 (see Cole 1955). When the Eisenhower sons found out about this event (evidentially a reporter published the letter putatively written by Ida Eisenhower to Mr. Boeckel) and other similar incidences, they wrote to Engle exploiting Ida (Kornitzer 1955). The letter was evidentially ignored by Engle and then Milton was given the task of dismissing her. At this time, Milton hired non-Witness Mrs. Robinson to help take care of Ida.
It would appear that Richard Boeckel would immediately be suspicious when he received the letter with Mrs. Eisenhower's signature obviously taped on it. He should have confirmed that the letter was genuine before he made claims about receiving a letter from Ida Eisenhower. His story and a photo reproduction of the letter was published in Marley Cole's book Jehovah's Witnesses and other sources, and Boeckel repeated the claims about the letter in his life story published in the October 15, 1980 Watchtower. At the minimum, the Watchtower Society, Mr. Boeckel, and Marley Cole have unethically presented a letter as genuine evidentially without verification. If Mrs. Eisenhower's letter is verified to be valid, the allegations that her letter is a forgery should be squashed. So far the Watchtower has not answered several inquiries about this matter. The Eisenhower museum has agreed to pay for a handwriting expert to examine the letter, but all attempts to obtain the cooperation of the Watchtower have so-far failed.
Merle Miller related an experience involving Boeckel and this letter which reveals the irony of Eisenhower's mother's faith:
. . . one time when Boeckel refused, as a good Witness must, to salute his superior officers at Fort Warren, he said that he was a Witness and that his refusal to salute was "based on my understanding of the Bible." One officer reportedly said, "General Eisenhower ought to line you Jehovah's Witnesses up and shoot you all!" Boeckel then, again according to The Watchtower, said, "'Do you think he would shoot his own mother, sir?' "'What do you mean by that?' "Reaching in my pocket and taking out Sister Eisenhower's letter, I handed it to him. . . . He read the letter ... [and] handed it back to me. 'Get back to ranks,' he said, 'I don't want to get mixed up with the General's mother'"(Miller, 1987:79).
Suspicion that the letter was a forgery is also supported by a Watchtower teaching called The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine. The Theocratic Warfare doctrine essentially teaches that it is appropriate to withhold the truth from "people who are not entitled to it" to further the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1992; Franz, 1971:1060-1061). Reed defines Theocratic War Strategy as the approval to lie "to outsiders when deemed necessary" and also to deceive outsiders to advance the Watchtower's interests (Reed, 1995:40). In the words of Kotwall the Watchtower teaches that "to lie and deceive in the interest of their religion is Scripturally approved" (Kotwall, 1997:1). Jehovah's Witnesses do not always lie outright, but they often lie according to the court's definition--not telling "the whole truth and nothing but the truth," which means the court requires the whole story, not half-truths or deception (Bergman 1998). In the words of Raines, theocratic warfare in practice means "deceiving" to protect and advance the interests of "God's people" especially God's "organization the Watchtower" (Raines, 1996:20).
Nonetheless I found no evidence that either parent was not a devoted Watchtower adherent when the Eisenhower boys were raised. If Mrs. Eisenhower's allegiance to the Watchtower waned as she got older, this would not affect the fact that her boys were raised as Witnesses, but would help us to better understand Ida Eisenhower.
In conclusion, Ida probably did not resign from the Witnesses and still saw herself as one. The reasons for concluding Ida Eisenhower mailed other letters at about the same time that she allegedly mentioned her Witness commitment to Boeckel include a handwritten letter to fellow Witness Mrs. H. I. Lawson of Long Island, N.Y., in 1943 (Cole, 1955). Although this letter could be a forgery as well, no one has voiced this concern yet.
In addition, a front page Wichita Beacon (April 1943) article about Ida's Watchtower assembly attendance gave no indication that she was then disenchanted with Jehovah's Witnesses. The article stated that "the 82 year old mother of Americas famous military leader. . . was the center of attraction at the meeting Sunday, and her name was heard in just about every conversation, speech and discussion. The program's subject was 'how to become a good Jehovah's Witness." No evidence exists that only a year later she rejected Watchtower teachings or had resigned. These facts do not prove the letter is not a forgery, nor do they demonstrate the commonly alleged view that she became a Witness only in her later years when she was becoming senile, as often implied by many authors.
Conversely, some hints exists that Mrs. Eisenhower's loyalty to the Watchtower, in contrast to the common perception, waned as she grew older. All of her sons left the Watchtower, as did her husband, all whom became opposed to many of their teachings. Furthermore, when J. F. Rutherford became the Watchtower president in 1916, their teachings changed drastically. Rutherford introduced many - if not most - of their more objectionable teachings such as their opposition to medicine, flag salute, vaccines, blood transfusions, and all other religions, all of which Rutherford regarded as "a snare and a racket" and of Satan. If Rutherford had retained the teachings of the first president, C.T. Russell, I believe the Eisenhower family concerns about the Watchtower would not have been nearly as great.
On the other hand, very good reasons existed for the Eisenhower family to attempt to distance themselves from the Watchtower--reasons which were made clear by some of Eisenhower's opponents, some evidently who planned to use this information to hurt Eisenhower's political career. As noted above, Roy noted that Eisenhower's religious background was used by some to argue that he was not fit to become president.




 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago


Holy Mackral ! Did you write this article. It's very interesting. I always wondered what the real scoop was about Pres.Eisenhower, now I know. Do you have the Bibliography of this article? I'd like to look into those sources, especially Ike's brothers work. Very very interesting. Thanks for posting!

"Our day will come old friend, just not today."
 
cat1759
cat1759 13 years ago


This was an excellent read!
I thought the double standards were so cute.
Cathy
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago


Panda, these are the sources:

References
Ambrose, Stephen E. The Supreme Commander: The War Years of General Dwight D. Eisenhower . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1970.
_________. Eisenhower: 1893-1952 . New York: Simon and Schuster, 1983.
Anderson, Jack. "Is His Vote Record Related To Payroll?" Merry-Go-Round in the Detroit Free Press (Sept. 23, 1956),16b.
Bergman, Jerry. "The Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses Branch of Protestantism" in America's Alternative Religions , Ed. by Timothy White Albany, NY: State University of New Press, 1995, p. 33-46.
_________. The Theocratic Warfare Doctrine: Why Jehovah's Witnesses Lie in Court . Clayton, CA: Witness Inc 1998.
Beschloss, Michael R. Eisenhower, A Centennial Life . New York: Harper Collins 1990.
Boeckel, Richard A. "A Soldier who Became a Preacher" The Watchtower ( Oct. 15, 1980), 24-29.
Bonnell, John Sutherland. Presidential Profiles; Religion in the Life of American Presidents . (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1971).
Branigar, Thomas. Letter to the author, August 9, 1994
Cole, Marley. Jehovah's Witnesses, The New World Society  New York: Vantage Press 1955.
Cosmin, Barry A. and Seymour P. Lachman. One Nation Under God . New York: Harmony Books, 1993.
Davis, Kenneth , Soldier of Democracy; A Biography of Dwight Eisenhower  Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1952 originally published in 1945
Dodd, Gladys. The Religious Background of the Eisenhower Family . Bachelor of Divinity Thesis, Nazarene Theology Seminary, Merriam, Kans. 1959.
_________. "The Early Career of Abraham L. Eisenhower, Pioneer Preacher," Kansas Historical Quarterly  29 (Autumn 1963).
_________. Letter from author dated Oct. 8, 1994.
Endacott, J. Earl. Records, Documentary Historical Series , Box 4, Eisenhower Library
Eisenhower, Dwight D. At Ease, Stories I tell to Friends  Garden City, NJ: Doubleday, 1967.
_________. The Eisenhower Diaries (Robert H. Fervell, Ed.). New York: W.W. Norton Co., 1981.
Eisenhower, Milton S. The President is Calling  GardenCity, New York: Doubleday, 1974.
Fleming, Helen. "Ike's Mom Jehovah Witness 50 yrs., Say group leaders; preacher from door to door in Abilene, Director reports."  Chicago Daily News , June 25, 1955, pp. 1,3.
Ford, Edward , Jr. correspondence to author dated Sept. 1995.
Fox, Frederick. "Pro Ike." Christian Century . July 2,1969 Vol. 86.
Franz, Frederick (Ed.). Aid to Bible Understanding. New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1971.
________. J ehovah's Witnesses; Proclaimers of God's Kingdom . Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania 1993).
Freese, Arthur. "Man of the 20th century" (Interview with Milton Eisenhower) Modern Maturity. Dec-Jan., 1975 17(6):25-28).
Fuller, Edmund and David E. Green. God in the White House; The Faiths of American Presidents . New York: Crown Publishers, Inc., 1968.
Gammon, Roland (Ed.). Eisenhower speech reprinted in (Roland Gammon Ed.) Al l Believers Are Brothers . New York: Doubleday, Garden City, 1969), 3-4.
Graham, Billy. Just As I Am; The Autobiography of Billy Graham. (San Francisco: Harper 1997), chapter 12 "The General who Became President" 188 - 206.
Gruss, Edmond. T he Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation . Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976.
Gunther, John. Eisenhower, The Man and the Symbol . Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1951.
Gustafson, Merlin. "Religion of a President." Christian Century . (April 30, 1969), 610-613.
Hatch, Alden. General Ike; A Biography of Dwight D. Eisenhower . Chicago, IL: Consolidated Book Publishers, 1944.
Hendon, David and James Kennedy. "Civil Religion" Journal of Church and State. 391 39 (2) 1997, 390-391.
Hutchinson, Paul. "The President's religious faith," Christian Century . March 24, 1954 Vol 71, 364; reprinted in Life March 22, 1954 Vol. 36: 150+
Henshel, Milton G. Chicago Daily News . June 25,1955, 1, 3
Jameson, Henery B. "Ike buried in Abilene; Massive crowd for Eisenhower funeral" Abilene Reflector--Chronicle , Memorial Ed. 1969.
Knorr, N.H. "Religion Void of Principle." Awake!  Oct 22,1946, 27(20): 323-324.
_________. "Eisenhower book stirs a controversy: conceals fact that parents were Jehovah's Witnesses." Awake!  ( Sept. 22, 1955. 36(18), 3-4.
_________. "Appreciated Parents" Awake! Ap. 22, 1975, 56(8):30.
_________. "Conspiracy against Jehovah's name" Watchtower 78(11): 323-324. June 1, 1957
Kornitzer, Bela. The Great American Heritage; The Story of the Five Eisenhower Brothers . New York: Farrar Straus, and Cudahy, 1955.
Kotwall, B. J. "The Watchtower Society Encourages Lying." The Investigator Magazine Australia 1997.
Larson, Arthur. E isenhower; The President Nobody Knew . New York: Charles Scribners Sons, 1968.
Lyon, Peter. Eisenhower; Portrait of the Hero . Boston: Little, Brown and Co 1974.
McCullun, John Six Roads From Abilene, Some Personal Recollections of Edgar Eisenhower . Seattle, Wash.: Wood and Reber, Inc., 1960.
Miller, Francis Trevelyn. Eisenhower, Man and Soldier . (Philadelphia: John C. Winston Company, 1944)
Miller, Merle. Ike the Soldier; As They Knew Him. New York: Putnam's Sons, 1987.
Neal, Steve. The Eisenhower's . Lawrence, Kans: University Press of Kansas 1984.
Nevin, David. "Home to Abilene." Life  (April 11,1969 Vol 66 No 14 ), 24.
Pearson, Drew. "Eisenhower's seek to clear mother of affiliation with religious sect." Merry-Go-Roun d in the Defiance Crescent News . (Dec. 19, 1956): 6.
Pickett, William. Dwight David Eisenhower and American Power . Wheeling, Ill.:Harland Davidson, Inc., 1995.
Raines, Ken. "Deception by JWs in Court, OK with Judge?" JW Research Journal . 3(2) Spring 1996, p. 20.
Reed, David. "Court Rules; Watchtower Booklet Recommends 'Untrue' Testimony Under Oath." C omments from the Friends , Spring, 1992.
_______. Dictionary of J.W. eez: The Loaded Language Jehovah's Witnesses Speak . (Assonet, MA.: Comments from the Friends, 1995): 40.
Ralph Lord, Roy. Apostles of Discord; A Study of Organized Bigotry and Disruption on the Fringes of Protestantism . Boston: Beach Press, 1953.
Russell, Charles Taze. Studies in the Scriptures; Series III, Thy Kingdom Come Chapter 10, "The Testimony of God's Stone Witness and Prophet, The Great Pyramid in Egypt," Allegheny, PA: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 1904.
________. Studies in the Scriptures; Series I, The Plan of the Ages . New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1914 Front page.
Rutherford, Joseph. "The Alter in Egypt." Pt. 1 The Watch Tower . 49(22):339-345, Nov. 15, 1928; Pt. II. Dec. 1, 1928, 49(23):355-362).
Sellers, Ron. How Americans View Various Religious Groups . Report by Barna Research Group, 1990
Sider, Morris E. . Archivist for the Brethren in Christ Church, Messiah College, Grantham, PA. Interviews of various dates, and correspondence to the author dated October 24, 1994.
Taylor, Allan (Ed.). What Eisenhower Thinks . New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company.
Tonkin, R.G. "I grew up with Eisenhower." Saturday Evening Post ,May 3,1952.
Time Eisenhower: Soldier of peace." April 4, 1969:19-25.
Time "I Chose My Way." Sept 23, 1946: 27.
Whitney, David C. The American Presidents . Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Company, 1967.
Watchtower Publication Awake! "Should Christians be Pacifists" (May 8, 1997, 78(9): 22-23); "Why Jehovah's Witnesses are not Pacifists" and "Pacifism and Conscientious Objection - is there a difference?" 73 - 81 The Watchtower (Feb 1, 1951 72(3): 67- 73; Christendom or Christianity, which is the light of the World?  (New York, NY:Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1955), 24-26 subtitled "Is a Christian a Pacifist?"
 
Panda
Panda 13 years ago

Joker10, Thank you I am going to keep this bibliography and someday get through a fraction of this list. Again, Thanks.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


Joeker10 has neglected to mention that the article he posted can be found at: http://www.premier1.net/~raines/eisenhower.html
In an article titled, "Why President Eisenhower Hid His Jehovah's Witness Upbringing"
written by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D, Northwest State College, Ohio.
I'm sure Joker10's failure to mention this when specifically asked by Panda if he was the author of the article was simply an oversight.
 
Loris
Loris 13 years ago


I like to go to the local library when they have a used book sale. People donate books and the sale benefits the library. I found "The True Believer" at one of those sales. I had never heard of it before but the title caught my eye.
The one that I have was published by Time Magazine. In the Editors' Preface it starts out by saying, "Dwight Eisenhower is not a man who goes about insistently recommending books on political philosophy. When, during his Presidency, he pressed Eric Hoffer's book, The True Believer, on his associates, some expected to find it a handy expression of Eisenhower's own beliefs. The book is certainly not that, and many other readers before and after Eisenhower have delighted in The True Believer while disagreeing with much of it."
To me I found that tidbit facinating. I am sure that the editor missed the point of Eisenhower's interest in the subject matter. Was it the threat of Communism or was it the JW experience from his childhood? Did he see the similarity of the JW experience with what Eric Hoffer wrote about?
Thank you Jocker10 for posting the article. It was a facinating read.
Loris
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


Thanks Joker....
As a student of history I found this article very interesting. A lot of background information on what makes a person 'tick'. Dwight Eisernhower's life certainly made an impact on this earth and it is facinating to read about how his 'religious' background evolved.
D.E.
 
Joker10
Joker10 13 years ago

i thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 13 years ago


i
thought it was a pretty interesting story to post. I'm quite surprised there has been few replies.
Don't worry about it.... it's human nature to not take as much time with or completely ignore LONG posts.... their misfortune... it was a great read.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


I researched this some time ago for a history project. My mother was a JW during the Eisenhower years. They talked about it like we do today about Michael Jackson and the Williams sisters.
During the JW generation of DDE, home family studies weren't stressed. My goodness, a structured study with householders didn't start until 1937 with the Model Study booklet. In many families around here the grandparents were JWs, skip the next generation, then the grandchildren are JWs. I guess the WTS thought the end was so close that it wasn't necessary to study with the kiddies.
Blondie
 
RR
RR 13 years ago

Actually, Ike's Father was a Bible Student eler, NEVER became a JW, lived and died a Bible Student.
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


That's good to know, RR. Then I take it his mother was a JW or was she a Bible Student too? That letter seems to indicate she was a JW. That must have made things interesting in the Eisenhower household.
Blondie
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

Here are some search hits on this topic:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Eisenhower+mother+jehovah%27s+witness +
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Ida+Stover&btnG=Search
Some google graphics:
http://images.google.com/images?q=Ida%20Stover&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Honorable MentionIda (Stover) Eisenhower,
Ike's Mother

Ida Eisenhower, 1902
Although arbitrarily excluded from the top five,
Ida Eisenhower may deserve to be
Ike's No. 1. Most Admired Contemporary.
Eisenhower stated more than once that his mother was
the greatest person he knew.
I posted this in another thread, yet just found this one. Therefore, I'll post it here as well:
http://www.aetv.com/tv/shows/ike/
A and E tv original event...May 31, 2004 8pm--7pm central
"IKE: Countdown to D-Day"
________________________
sKally
 
Bangalore
Bangalore 4 years ago

Bumping this.

Bangalore
 

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http://www.nwaonline.net/281216684861365.bsp

"The Morning News" (Arkansas News)
Religious Leaders To Describe Traditions Of Peace
Tue, Jan 14, 2003
Public To Join Discussion Of Differing Faiths
Special To The Morning News/NWAonline.net
FAYETTEVILLE -- Clerics and lay members of various religious denominations will meet together at 7 p.m. today to share their peace traditions.
A discussion will follow, and the public is invited.
Sponsored by the Omni Center for Peace and Justice, the meeting will be in the sanctuary of the United Campus Ministry at Maple Street and Storer Avenue in Fayetteville.
During the first hour, each denomination's peace tradition will be presented by one representative, led by moderator David Edwards, a professor emeritus at the University of Arkansas.
The second hour will be open to discussion among presenters and audience.
"In this time of attack and retaliation, of invasion and war, of weapons of mass destruction and of pandemic hunger and disease, a potential bastion of wisdom and practice for peace resides in our faith communities," a news release from the Omni Peace Center said.
"Meeting in the spirit of peace, we will seek to increase our understanding of our own denomination's peacemaking, to share that knowledge with others, and to learn more about the peace traditions of other faiths."
Presenters include the Rev. Scott Jones, Rolling Hills Baptist Church; Geoff Oelsner, representing the Buddhist faith; the Rev. Jim Johnson of the First Christian Church; Eli or Irene Miller of the Church of the Brethren/Mennonite; the Rev. Lowell Grisham of the Episcopal Church; Maeve Courteau, representing the Jehovah's Witnesses; Mike Lieber, representing Judaism; the Rev. Libbie Lazzaraga of the Presbyterian Church; Karen Takemoto, representing the Quaker faith; Julia Thoma or Paul Warren, representing the Roman Catholic Church; the Rev. Rhett Baird of the Unitarian Universalist Church; and the Rev. Gary Simmons of the Unity Church.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Watchtower Quotes on Interfaith:
Quote from the Official Watchtower.org Website: http://www.watchtower.org/library/br78/article_03.htm
Satan is invisible ruler of world -- 1 John 5:19, 2 Cor. 4:4, John 12:31
A Christian must have no part in interfaith movements -- 2 Cor. 6:14-17, 2 Cor. 11:13-15, Gal. 5:9, Deut. 7:1-5
A Christian must keep separate from world -- Jas. 4:4, 1 John 2:15, John 15:19, John 17:16
All human laws that do not conflict with God's laws should be obeyed -- Matt. 22:20, 21, 1 Pet. 2:12, 1 Pet. 4:15
Quote from The Watchtower November 15th 2001 Issue, Page 19:
"Hypocrisy...will ultimately prove death-dealing to those who practice it. In the end, hypocrisy will be openly exposed. There is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, said Jesus Christ, and secret that will not become known. (Matthew 10:26; Luke 12:2) Wise King Solomon declared: The true God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad. Ecclesiastes 12:14."
Quote from AWAKE! November 22nd 1975 Issue, Page 23:
"Jehovah's Witnesses have nothing in common with other religious groups and can never seek any affiliation with them."
Quote from The Watchtower July 1st 1993 Issue, Page 16, Paragraph 17:
NO ECUMENISM.
Two other complaints made against Jehovah's Witnesses are that they refuse to take part in the ecumenical movement and that they engage in what is termed "aggressive proselytizing." Both of these reproaches were also flung at the early Christians. Christendom, with her Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant components, is undeniably a part of this world. Like Jesus, Jehovah's Witnesses "are no part of this world." (John 17:14) How could they ally themselves through interfaith movements with religious organizations that promote unchristian conduct and beliefs?
Quote from The Watchtower July 15th 1989 Issue, Page 25:
Surely, then, we should do nothing to support interfaith movements or perpetuate false religion.
Quote from The Watchtower March 15th 1988 Issue, Page 9:
Would not offering prayers at an interfaith meeting on a Buddhist holy mountain amount to a Christian's 'becoming unevenly yoked'?
Quote from The Watchtower January 1st 1987 Issue, Page 29:
mostly Catholics, that have noticed religion's drifting toward politics and its acceptance and approval of un-Biblical practices like interfaith, immorality, and violence.
Quotes from The Watchtower April 1st 1986 Issue, Pages 30-31:
Questions From Readers
Why have Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
Those who voice such an objection point out that many religious organizations claiming to be Christian allow dissident views...
However, such examples provide no grounds for our doing the same. Why not? Many of such denominations allow widely divergent views among the clergy and the laity because they feel they cannot be certain as to just what is Bible truth...
Moreover, to the extent that religionists believe in interfaith, they are obligated not to take divergent beliefs too seriously...
Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah's Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth. The Roman Catholic pope, as well as the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, professes such beliefs, yet their church memberships are exclusive of each other. Likewise, simply professing to have such beliefs would not authorize one to be known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a "faithful and discreet slave" upon earth today 'entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests,' which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ's foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15-12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ's Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present "great crowd" of Jesus' "other sheep."...
...the apostle John termed as antichrists those who did not believe that Jesus had come in the flesh. They may well have believed in God, in the Hebrew Scriptures, in Jesus as God's Son, and so on.
Following such Scriptural patterns, if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation. (See Titus 3:10, 11.)
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


Hi UnDF'ed,
I was just going to post this - fortunately I got in the habit of doing a search for a phrase from the article to determine if it has already been posted, and sure enough...
Wouldn't you love to know what the "brothers" at the Service Desk in Brooklyn/Patterson have to say about this - either ol' Maeve is in for a glorious ass-kicking (this is not only an "ecumenical" meeting in the sanctuary of one of Babylon's churches, it is also a thinly-disguised political meeting) or the WTS has made a 180 degree "tacking" maneuver. I sure would like to know which...

Edited by - Nathan Natas on 14 January 2003 7:57:54
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 13 years ago


This reminds of an episode in Sydney, Australia a couple of years ago where two Branch representatives attended a political protest rally over planning laws.
They got caught out. Their picture made front page news!
In case you're wondering, they're still there at Bethel! Don't you love those aussies!!!!!
Cheers, Ozzie
 
freeman
freeman 13 years ago


You people are so quick to condemn! Yes it looks like they are lying hypocrites, but Im sure there is a logical explanation...


(Thinking...thinking)


I know, they are just renewing a library card, yes thats it.

Freeman
 
undercover
undercover 13 years ago


I'd say Bro. Courteau is in for a back room session when the CO finds out. His intentions may be good and sincere but it doesn't fit in with policy from headquarters. In fact if this is the scenerio I will feel a little sorry for him. Maybe he's doing what he feels is good for the community in general, not just the JWs and he will get in trouble for it.
Now if this is sanctioned, then we have another problem. Hypocrisy once again will be rearing its ugly head. "You everyday dubs do as we say, but ignore what we in charge do".
 
Rado Vleugel
Rado Vleugel 13 years ago


I also almost posted a new thread! I already have written a brief article on this interfaith meeting. Read it on:  http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org
Rado Vleugel
 
benext
benext 13 years ago

I wonder if the brother cleared this before agreeing to participate. Anyone know his position in the org? Of course if the Society allowed his appearance they can always "cancel" it now that it's public knowledge.
 
ChristianObserver
ChristianObserver 13 years ago


Hello :o)
*Maeve Courteau*
Is this actually a Sister Courteau - or is the name Maeve sometimes used for a male....? Just wondering.....
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago

This person is listed on Infospace.
 
abbagail
abbagail 13 years ago


Located at 902 W. Maple in Fayetteville, Arkansas, in the "Deep End" facility of United Campus Ministry, the OMNI Center is intended to serve the community, the nation, and the world as a support for concerned individual citizens and as a coalition center for peace, justice, and ecology groups. Omni seeks:
* a world free of war and the threat of war
* a society with equity and justice for all
* a community where every person's potential may be fulfilled
* an earth restored
------------------------------------------------------------------------
902 W. Maple, Fayetteville, AR 72701
Phone: (479) 442-4600
Email: jbennet@uark.edu
Website: http://comp.uark.edu/~jbennet/omni
Interesting news, you guys. My first guess would be the JW is looking at it as an opportunity to "preach the good news." Maybe the Omni Center will do a follow-up report at their site after the meeting. As for Maeve's credentials (publisher, pioneer, elder, male, female, lol), let's all email jbennett and ask, lol.
 
ISP
ISP 13 years ago


Could do with knowing whether the dub is on officially sanctioned business!
ISP
 
LDH
LDH 13 years ago


RUN, MAEVE!!!!
Save yourself!!!
Lisa
 
Room 215
Room 215 13 years ago


Maeve, you've gotta stifle those conciliatory, tolerant impulses before they destroy you!
Re Ozzie's observation re political activism and JWs, some of you may recall- I certainly do-- JWs doing some placard carrying and demonstrating in Brooklyn, militating against, I believe, an adverse ruling on expansion/conversion of WTBTS buildings in Brooklyn's Brooklyn Heights, site of the Watchotower headquarters and a ``historical preservation zone.'' It was during the mayoralty of Ed Koch, and one anecdote had it that, upon observing the crowd, Mayor Koch quipped to an aide ``They don't have a snowball's chance in hell; all those marchers and not a single vote among them!"
Whatever high-sounding rhetoric they employ to rationalize their actions, the boys in Brooklyn/Patterson have shown that their ``inviolable" principles can be remarkably pliable when it comes to money or self-interest. France and the brouhaha about the Society's tax liabilities, I believe, furnishes another example of JWs taking to the streets to defend their assets.
 
sunshineToo
sunshineToo 13 years ago

Maybe Maeve is doing this by himself without consent from the up-state N.Y. Sheesh! He could get DF'd!!! Somebody email him that he is associating with the Babylon the Great!!! Even the Mormons are not participating in this.
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 13 years ago


Mayor Koch quipped to an aide ``They don't have a snowball's chance in hell; all those marchers and not a single vote among them!"
LMAO! So true!
 
Utopian_Raindrops
Utopian_Raindrops 13 years ago


Ok everyone knows here that this is more of The WTBS courting the devil because as Nathan Natas pointed out,  this is not only an "ecumenical" meeting in the sanctuary of one of Babylon's churches, it is also a thinly-disguised political meeting.

The other thing I noticed is Maeve is a womans name! This would be more trying to look like the world. As if JW woman are treated equal to JW men!! Not a sister is trained for a talk at the podium! Is she going to be sitting in at a table with a mock householder describing JW methods of promoting peace?
Also, will OlMaeve be wearing a head covering while she speaks..or is her head shaven? (1 Corinthians 11)
The WTBS forever continues to dig their graves!
If anyone attends and takes pictures I want to see!
Thanks for posting this UnDissed!
And your article is really good to Rado http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/omni.htm


Ciao 4 now ,
U_R


 
rocketman
rocketman 13 years ago

Hmmm, maybe I will try joining another religion.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


I spoke to a public information dude at Bethel, and he said they're looking into it, and that maybe it wasn't REALLY an interfaith kind of thing. LOL!!
Then I sent an email to jbennet:
***************
Subject: Question about tonight's meeting
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:59:33 -0800
To: jbennet@uark.edu
Hello J. Bennet,
I noticed in today's news (online) an article from "The Morning News" (Arkansas News) titled, "Religious Leaders To Describe Traditions Of Peace."
One thing about the article struck me as VERY odd - that one of the participants, a person named Maeve Courteau, will be "representing the Jehovah's Witnesses," according to the article.
Is this true?
If so, may I ask what Maeve Courteau's credentials as a "leader" of Jehovah's Witnesses might be?
You may be interested to learn that according to the official website of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (the legal entity of Jehovah's Witnesses), "A Christian must have no part in interfaith movements 2 Cor. 6:14-17, 2 Cor. 11:13-15, Gal. 5:9, Deut. 7:1-5 "
You can check this for yourself at: http://www.watchtower.org/library/br78/article_03.htm
I can't help thinking that Maeve Couteau is either a phony, a renegade, or an apostate from the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses. You may want to check into this more deeply.
Best wishes,
- xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
****************************
So much shit to stir, so little time; after all, Armageddon is right around the corner!
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 13 years ago


Naa-Naa Naa-Naa Booo Booo!
Somebody's gonna get in trouble!


 
tazmaniac
tazmaniac 13 years ago

It is amazing to think that they would be a part of an interfaith meeting. I know in years past Witnesses were invited to join in those kinds of things and if anyone even thought they could join in on something like that they were looked down upon as weak and bordering on stumbling others.
 

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New JW Interfaith Meeting!
by UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago 38 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago

This is not the first time:
 
blondie
blondie 13 years ago


Here is my response from Mr. Bennet
Ms. Courteau heard about the Roundtable and volunteered to
speak. You should contact Ms. Courteau, who lives in Elkins. I, of course,
desire an accurate representation of each of the denominations.
Thanks for contacting me, Dick Bennett
OMNI CENTER FOR PEACE, JUSTICE, AND ECOLOGY
Corner of Maple and Storer in Fayetteville in Presbyterian and Disciples
Student Center
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


HA HA HA HA! Blondie, you rock!
Here's the reply I got:
******
Subject: Re: Question about tonight's meeting
From: Dick Bennet <jbennet@uark.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:44:54 -0800
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mr. xxxxxxxx, you are the second person to notify me of this situation today.
Ms. Courteau offered to present for J'sW, so I put her on the program. Now this morning she phoned to say she could not. If she was not a credible representative of J'sW, then I am glad she withdrew, even though she was on our printed program.
Dick Bennett, President
OMNI CENTER FOR PEACE, JUSTICE, AND ECOLOGY
Corner of Maple and Storer in Fayetteville in Presbyterian and Disciples
Student Center
Contact Dick Bennett (jbennet@uark.edu; 442-4600)(website:http://comp.uark.edu/~jbennet/omni
**************
 
LDH
LDH 13 years ago


So they want an accurate representation, huh??? Do any of you live in the area? Wanna have some fun? Why not go as a Rep for the JWs.
You can then proceed to piss off and isolate everyone by sharing with them some WT quotes which basically say their religions suck ass. And, that they should plan on dying "real soon now."
LOL.
Wish I lived there.
Lisa
Accurate representation Class
 
wednesday
wednesday 13 years ago


So much shit to stir, so little time; after all, Armageddon is right around the corner!
LOL now what if the sis is one of our own, she may have planned a little fun and here we have spoiled it all.
 
UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago



Ms. Courteau offered to present for JW's, so I put her on the program. Now this morning she phoned to say she could not.
Looks like this Thread may have had a little impact in that decision, eh?
 
minimus
minimus 13 years ago

Who said the Society isn't influenced by these boards?
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 13 years ago


Naa-Naa Naa-Naa Booo Booo!

She got in trouble!


 
David2002
David2002 13 years ago

I believe you misunderstand the Witnesses definition of interfaith. They believe that interfaith involves a sharing of false beliefs and participating in a religious function with other groups- such as praying together.
What the article you cited is referring is a discussion of different religious group and their beliefs regarding peace. Certainly, Jehovah's Witnesses are not shy about discussing their beliefs even in a group setting. Jehovah's Witnesses have participated in programs in the past in which other groups were involved in discussing their beliefs. For instance a few years ago a television program on beliefs of life after death included several clergymen from various groups, representing the Budhist, Evangelical, Jewish, Catholic and Jehovah's Witness beliefs. This, of course, was not a interfaith meeting, since the Jehovah's Witness minister was able to prove from the Bible that the beliefs the others were espousing were wrong and non-biblical. In the same way, the discussion on the viewpoints of peace have nothing to do with JW's joining an interfaith forum.
 
gumby
gumby 13 years ago


Here is another doo-zy,
Last week a 80 year old JW man died. In the Obituary it said he was a LIFETIME member of a foreign war group. It said an elder would officiate, and then a commander from the foreign war gig would speak! A witness service with a war vetran speaking too? Blew me away.
 
minimus
minimus 13 years ago

David, I believe these "interfaith" meetings were designated as such by the media or those that were advertising. That in itself could be a cause for real stumbling. If the average Witness decided to involve themselves in such a meeting, there could be many problems for the participants....No confusion here!!!
 
Utopian_Raindrops
Utopian_Raindrops 13 years ago


David,
I dont know how long you have been a Jehovahs Witness but, minimus is right.
You stated, What the article you cited is referring is a discussion of different religious group and their beliefs regarding peace. Certainly, Jehovah's Witnesses are not shy about discussing their beliefs even in a group setting.
Of course we know JWs are not shy in discussing their beliefs with others even in a group setting. That is not the issue.
The issue here is in an interfaith setting.
In case you did not realize The WTBS in the past has MOCKED other religions for partaking in such an interfaith setting. I remember wondering WHY they thought it was so bad that The Other Religions would gather before The United Nations and discuss World Peace.This was a perfect time for them to Teach World Leaders about the New World! They also,often have MOCKED meetings of other religions gathering together to discuss how to get along better.
How 2 faced to NOW partake in such meetings WITHOUT 1 st apologizing (the WT Nov. 1, 2002) for past erroneous views on this and explaining why such meetings are now OK for True Christians! New Light is great if accompanied by an apology and explanation. Instead they arrogantly forge ahead doing as they please no explanation what so ever and in the past R&F JW have been disfellowshipped for such meetings!
Why should The Sheep pay the price always for The Shepards negligence?
I think you need to sit down and read past bound volumes David so you are filled in as to what kind of meetings are acceptable and what is not for a Jehovahs Witness.
Ty 4 listening,
Agape,
Utopian_Raindrops

Edited by - Utopian_Raindrops on 17 January 2003 0:19:37
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


David,
The JW "minister" didn't prove anything to anyone because SHE (it was a sister, too) chickened out the morning of the event. I guess maybe her "spiritual armor" was a little to heavy for the little girl to lug around. HA HA! ...and the fellow I spoke to at Bethel seemed more concerned about the issue than you appear to be - he didn't try to explain it away like you did.
FACT: The event was scheduled by a babylonish religious group
FACT: The event was to take place in the sanctuary of a babylonish church
FACT: The event has distinct political overtones
FACT: The JW was listed as a "leader" of Jehovah's Witnesses. No sister leads.
FACT: She stayed home where she belongs
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
 
UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago


Hello and Welcome to the Board David2002!
The Watchtower Society has told JW's that they cannot even have anything to do with The Boy Scouts or The Girl Scouts and the YMCA and YWCA because of their "Religious Connections", so I believe that this Meeting in this News Article would definitely have more "Religious Connections" to Babylon the Great than The Boy Scouts or the YMCA.
Here are Quotes about the YMCA:
The Watchtower January 1st 1979 Issue, Pages 30-31:
Questions from Readers
Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah's Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men's Christian Association)?
Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.
In September 1885 the WatchTower took this position:
"Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds."-P. 6.
Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovah's Witnesses in one of their meetings.
Many persons think of the "Y" simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:
"The Young Men's Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regarding Jesus Christ as their God and Saviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men."
While in some countries churches may not be the YMCA's main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the "Y" cannot be ignored.
But, some may sincerely wonder, is religion or interfaith really an aspect of the YMCA? The answer must be "Yes." Though religious features may be de-emphasized in some branches of the YMCA, all local "Y's" are still expected to comply with the Paris Basis. Further, note comments from the 1975 YMCA publication Christian and Open:
Anza A. Lema, associate of the executive committee of the World Alliance of YMCAs, wrote:
"From its very foundation, it has always looked to the Bible for inspiration and guidance. In many ways its role in the world has tended to complement that of the church without claiming to be a congregation itself. . . .
"But it is more than just an instrument through which Christians put their moral ideals and teachings into practice as they serve society. Most supporters of the YMCA look at it as a place where real fellowship with one another through Jesus Christ is experienced....
"In humbling itself and trying to relate its structures and services more directly to the community, it will be carrying out more effectively its role of service and priesthood for its neighbours.... "
Matthias Dannenmann, general secretary, National Council of YMCAs of Germany, said:
"From its very beginning the YMCA was no doubt meant to have only Christians as members and on the other hand there was the missionary obligation towards those members who could not yet profess Jesus Christ....
"The YMCA is a big offer, but only in as far as Jesus Christ is working in it as Living Saviour. We should do our very best not to drive out this Lord but as we carry him in our name we should personally use every chance of meeting him in the YMCA and of continuously extending this possibility to other people."
Officials of the organization have pointed out that they feel that more attention needs to be given to the religious orientation of the YMCA. Dr. Paul M. Limbert, from 1952-1962 secretary-general of the YMCAs World Alliance in Geneva, Switzerland, wrote:
"It may readily be granted that too few Y.M.C.A.s take full advantage of the opportunity for ecumenical education inherent in these informal contacts among Christians...
"When questions about different forms and beliefs arise among young people and adults, the wise leader takes advantage of the occasion to guide discussion from superficial argument to deeper dialogue....
Leaders in both churches and Y.M.C.A.s need to recognize more clearly the essential nature of a lay ecumenical Christian movement. A Young Men's Christian Association is not a church nor a substitute for a church.... Yet the Faith and Order commission of the British Council of Churches declared in a carefully worded statement in 1959 that the Christian Associations are valuable auxiliaries of the churches, organs of their own missionary activity.-"The Christian Century, June 10, 1964.
And The Christian Century of August 29, 1969, in its article "Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!", stated:
"Realizing that the Christian identity of the Y has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor.... It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves."
Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.
In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.
Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a one-time admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.-1 Cor. 8:11-13.
Jehovah's Witnesses, of course, appreciate a balanced amount of healthful exercise. The Bible says that "bodily training is beneficial for a little." Yet it adds that "godly devotion is beneficial for all things." (1 Tim. 4:8) That does not mean devotion to a triune God. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is "God" in a trinity, as is taught in many of Christendom's churches and as is still included in the "Paris Basis" of the YMCA.-1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3.
While interfaith efforts and ecumenism are popular today, they are not upheld by the true God, who told his servants: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers.... Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves." (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Also, Jesus plainly said that the Almighty must be worshiped "with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Most definitely that does not mean joining in a religious cause with persons holding beliefs contrary to what the Scriptures teach. (Rev. 18:4, 5) Thus, it is because of their understanding of what God expects of true worshipers, and of what the purposes and direction of the YMCA are, that Jehovah's Witnesses may not become members of that organization.
Further, it is well to give thought to the fact that in virtually all the years of the YMCAs existence, it has not acted in harmony with the spirit of Isaiah 2:2-4, as can be noted from the following historical facts:
"YMCA services to the armed forces began, in the United States, with the Civil War, and it continued giving service through all wars thereafter."-Encyclopdia Britannica, Micropdia, Vol. X, p. 835, 1976 ed.
"In the Civil War, only ten years after its beginning in Boston, and before there were buildings or secretaries or financial resources, a total of 4,859 delegates were recruited and deployed and over six millions of donated funds used for the temporal and spiritual needs of soldiers.... In World War I, the American Y.M.C.A. assumed an enormous responsibility for service at home and abroad for which a staff of 25,926 was required with expenditures of more than 167 million dollars. In World War II, the Y.M.C.A. became one of the organizations that founded the United Service Organizations [USO], joining as a group of private religious organizations from Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish faiths in an agreement with the Federal government to provide civilian recreational, welfare, and religious services to men in uniform and to war-production workers in communities adjacent to military establishments."-The New Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia, Vol. 36, pp. 13,467, 13,468, 1952 ed.
"YMCA activities for members of the armed forces began during the Civil War (1861-1865). These services increased with each later war and reached their fullest development during World War II (1939-1945). The YMCA maintained more than 450 clubs for the Allied armed forces."-The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 21, p. 477, 1978 ed.
This kind of service under the name "Christian" was certainly not in fulfillment of Micah 4:3.
 
undercover
undercover 13 years ago

So if a JW was to join, say, the YMCA for use of the gym without ever getting involved with interfaith, is he still in violation of some WTS policy? Let's say he had been a member for at least 10 years, taking full advantage of the Y's gym. If the elders or anyone else brought it to his attention could he then easily dispense with the matter by saying, " I was unaware of any interfaith movement involved but since this has been brought to my attention, I will disassociate myself from this organization". Of course he hasn't apologized for his action or even shown regret. Would everything be hunky-dory at this point or would there still be some judicial action? I think you know where I'm going with this.
 
UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago


Good questions, undercover!
I think it depends on how many hours the JW has been putting in service, and whether or not the JW has upset the local Elders (or the Governing Body).
 
not a captive
not a captive 6 years ago

SEVEN YEARS LATER.....
It is strange to find this thread after all these years. One of my brothers told me that he had Googled me and this had come up.
Here is my side of the story:
Dick Bennett was a professor of English at the University of Arkansas before he headed the OMNI Center for Peace and Justice. He and my husband were good friends who had campaigned against the Vietnam War on campus long before I married my husband. They went back along way. But as time went on the friendship went dormant. My husband had quit teaching at the Uof A to return fully to his country roots and we had a large family together of seven children. Very backwoods living really kept us out of the social/political groups he had been in before. We were not prosperous.
When I was 39 years old I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses,no one was happy, certainly not my husband. He hates religion generally, the Witnesses especially. His friends were one and all saddened for my him when they heard. Dick Bennett included. But he certainly was pleased to CALL ME when he wanted to have a panel discusssion of various churches' "peace traditions" as he called it.
I asked him what the format was. Was there going to be a prayer, who was moderating? There seemed nothing to indicate it was actually wrong to respond to his request. So I told him I would be happy to tell them how Jehovah's Witnesses had dealt with war. The U. S. at that time was going into Iraq.
At this time in my life my husband was living 8 miles away. Our plumbing was broke in the trailer and there were levels of distress in our household that mounted when Dick Bennett called a few weeks later and told me that he had received emails that were a disturbing to him. He read some to me which I now recognize to be from individuals on this board.
I was dumbfounded. I didn't get newspapers and had no idea that Dick had posted the panel dicussion in the newspaper, that it was billed as an "interfaith" meeting and that I was billed as a "leader" of Jehovah's Witnesses!
I lived in an old worn out trailer, with an outhouse, heated with wood in a smokey stove and just barely was holding my life together that winter. A leader of the Witnesses!
Well, I knew this was a problem. So I called Herb White, a respected elder from another congregation. Bro. White was alevel-headed elder and one of the Anointed. I explained what the invitation had been and asked him if he would represent the Witnesses since there were clearly some people being "stumbled" as the thing unfolded.
He declined and offered reasons that he felt it inappropriate to engage on the topic. He was not bombastic. He did not make me feel like an ass for accepting Dick's invitation to give a witness for my "church". But I remember him telling me clearly that "our brothers' had suffered a great deal in the past to avoid just such contamination with other's political agendas. And he carefully built the case that Dick's real intention was to further a political agenda. He didn't do a "slap down" on me. But it was clear that there was absolutely no good that I could serve on that panel.
Dick Bennett was not sure he should have asked me, I don't know what he thought because I guess he did have doubt that I should answer any questions. He didn't understand that certain phrases used in connection with the discussion made it impossible for me to participate. Certainly he didn't like having a panel member's credentials suddenly called into question. I was also wondering what all this meant.He asked if JW women were ministers. I told him we were but that this forum was a little unusual. But considering the spin that the newspaper had put on it I can see why there was a reaction. It was pretty miserable.

All the way around, the comments that I received were negative and disturbing. I learned via the email responses that Dick received that many saw my participation as irregular and out of line. Ther seemed no good to be served by my presence on the panel. Whether I did it by phone as Dick says or not, I did decline.
The panel discussion was held without me. I made sure to find a newspaper to see how it went. There was no"interfaith"worship if that was the problem, or any attempt to reconcile beliefs. It sounded pretty boring.
Ironically, about three years later Bro. White and his wife came to an OMNI sponsored presentation at our local library that featured an older Witness woman from the Farmington, Ar. congo who was one of the subjects in a paper presented on "persecutions for conscience in Arkansas" or something to that effect. I am sure there were different considerations in her case. But I saw that she was simply enjoying herself. Other Witnesses were there and had cookies and punch afterward. Bro. white didn't stay for any. And he didn't talk to me.
The rigid control and the sense of personal guilt and incompetence built up over time. Everywhere I turned there was implied blame for not doing enough and then doing too much.Not having your kids turn into Witnesses. And everyone who wasn't a JW just wondered why everything you did you had to worry about how it would or wouldn't "stumble" others. We were trained to think of it as theocratic obedience. It all just wore me out.
Maeve Courteau
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 6 years ago

Welcome to JWN, Maeve!
 
humbled
humbled 3 years ago

Here is a history of a behind-scenes activities of JWN working over a JW who stepped out of line with WTS policy. That JW was me. Later, when I was df'd, I came to this site and discovered that members here were active in the correspondence that made me face the consequences of being in a high control cult.
I am bumping this thread because the slap-down of JWs who were editing Wikipedia reminded me of my own slap-down 10 years ago---and my later (7 years!) discovery that JWN had jumped in and stirred the pot on the matter.
It is painful to look back and see how hard I struggled to maintain sanity in the cult. You are buffeted all about for trying to do what only seems simple and true. What a storm my ignorance and innocence got me into!
I still see Dick Bennett who opened that discussion on Peace Traditions of the area churches. He knows now I am free of the soul-crushing pressure of the Organization.
Maeve Courteau
 

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http://www.nwaonline.net/281216684861365.bsp .
"the morning news" (arkansas news).
religious leaders to describe traditions of peace .



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Thought you all would enjoy this.
I went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way! (10X worse than most JW).
I'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know Christ" blah blah blah blah blah.
Then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a Russian Mennonite blah blah blah and the Bible says that God will bless your offspring if you come to know him. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
So I start asking a few well placed questions like "Well what does that mean for the poor Muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a Muslim? Are you saying they are not blessed because their ancestors didn't accept Christ the way YOU think they should?"
Well, it was ten to one, Bible thumpers VS Lisa. And I thought you should know, they all admitted they were wrong AFTER I reference several scriptures like Acts 10:34,35 which does NOT state a prerequisite to God's blessing is being a Christian.
It felt kind of good to turn my JW training inside out and disprove their circular logic and make them accept that other people have belief systems that are just as valuable as their brand of Christianity.
It was a riot, I wish you guys were there.
They were all kind of pissed off also because I challenged the MEN. ha ha ha ha ha
Lisa
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 15 years ago


Lisa,
You that witnessing? I hope someone don't push you out the window.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


FRED
When want comment you will kick your cage. I hope you give rabies your family.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Hi LDH. I have a similar situation most of the time, with my son's fiancee. Her father is a fundamentalist pastor, and a great guy, but the mother and daughters..........deliver me, please! Everything is "thank you Jesus". I just want to gag!! We went to her 21st birthday party, at their home, last year, and I had to listen to that crap all day. Finally, I had had it, and I said, "how do you know that your prayers, are nothing more than goal setting?" I do a lot of that, and have wondered about the connection, and if there is one. The mother said, unbelievably "Isn't it wonderful? Jesus can answer prayers even if they don't believe it's a prayer!" I give up.
But, I used the same reasoning on them that you did, about Muslims, and they all caved. Every last one of the family had to acknowledge that the whole world does not have to accept Christ. My point to them was that "a Christian may have a greater responsibility, but doesn't it say that he died for ALL men?" Interesting that we used the same points. I just want them to quit trying to convert me. It will never happen. The father (Pastor) seems to recognize this, but the others are too dense.
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


LDH:
That WOULD have been fun.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Another little tidbit. The daughter my son is going to marry was in the emergency room on Thursday, with some neurological problems. I called the mother, who lives in another town, and told her that the neurologist said it was not Multiple Sclerosis, for sure. She replied "thank you Jesus." My husband deadpanned, "I didn't know the neurologist's name was Jesus?" I asked my son this morning how they will explain her illness if it does turn out to be very serious, or if she dies. He was totally dumbfounded. I asked if they will say Jesus didn't hear their prayers. No answer. Maybe he will think a bit. I don't wish that on her, by the way, but I want my son to THINK!!!
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


>So I start asking a few well placed questions like "Well what does that mean for the poor Muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a Muslim? Are you saying they are not blessed because their ancestors didn't accept Christ the way YOU think they should?"
You must have been dealing wth theological pygmies. Any evangelical that does not understand the concepts of election, predestination/free will is not very knowledgable. As a ex-JW your knowledge is probably basically rudimentary anyways.
>Well, it was ten to one, Bible thumpers VS Lisa. And I thought you should know, they all admitted they were wrong AFTER I reference several scriptures like Acts 10:34,35 which does NOT state a prerequisite to God's blessing is being a Christian.
Unless your lying about it. We have no way of knowing, do we? I suggest you read through the book of Romans and Ephesians, use the footnotes in a good study bible and if you can do it, go to a library and get Edward's "NIV Commentary on Romans".
NIV Acts 10:34-36
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
Peter is talking about God not favoring the Jews over gentiles. He is also speaking of converts to the new faith, to be later called "Christianity".
Also, the Bible DOES teach that all who do not accept His Son as their Lord and Saviour will reside in hell for an eternity.
LOL back atcha'
Rex
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Oh Puh---leez!!! Gag, gag, choke, choke.
 
Jang
Jang 15 years ago


Mulan

She replied "thank you Jesus." My husband deadpanned, "I didn't know the neurologist's name was Jesus?"
My dauther-in-laws mother is a fundy charismania and drives everyone mad with this. A couple of years ago she had surgery for Trigeminal Neuralgia which she had been waiting for God to heal. anyway, she was going on one day how thankful she was that God had finally healed her and so on. giving the impression that it was all miraculous. I pulled her up and reminded her that it was the Surgeon that had done the operation. Her reply was that it was Jesus who used the surgeon to heal ..... Then I asked her how come Jesus had to use a surgeon to heal her when he was quote capable of doing it in an instant.
Still haven't had an answer to that one [:D}

JanG
CAIC Website: http://caic.org.au/zjws.htm
Personal Webpage: http://uq.net.au/~zzjgroen/
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago




WHAT am I hearing here?
Do you not believe that the only way to be saved is by confessing Jesus as Lord and King just as the bible says? Do you not believe that you are saved only by accepting His loving sacrifice as the bible states?
It breaks my heart to see such abusiveness of others here; WHERE is the love that Jesus commanded us to have for everyone whether we agree or not?
LOVE for the day is near.
It is true that, by God's will (though not His desire) many will choose death over life, many will reject Jesus as Lord. They do this to the expense of their eternal life, believing they are right and God is wrong.
I feel such great sadness for anyone who rejects the truth.
 
LadyBug
LadyBug 15 years ago


God-Knows

I feel such great sadness for anyone who rejects the truth.
Then feel sadness for yourself.
BEW
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Hi Jan, your experience mirrors conversations I have all the time with these people. So irritating. I have had it with fundamentalists, including JW's, who are every bit as much fundamentalists as the Pentacostals, ramming their religion down people's throats. Maybe a different shade, of fundie, but still a fundie. You made a good point with her.....I hope she thinks about it at least.
As for you, god_knows........I am not giving credit to Jesus for healings. I don't believe that is done in our day. Doctors do what they know how to do. Random healings just don't happen. As for love for neighbor.......of course I feel that. Abuse? I don't think I am doing that. Nor is anyone who posted on this thread. I just don't agree with their theology. Am I not allowed to disagree? And, NO, I do NOT agree that the only way to salvation is to accept Jesus as your savior. Having said that, I am off for awhile. Time to make dinner for my loving family.
 
Francois
Francois 15 years ago


Mulan, you are a person after my own heart. I firmly belive that the greatest "christian" since Christ himself was Gandhi, who was Hindu. This of course is too much for your average fundy, who can't get past a juvenile, literalist interpretation of scripture.
For after Jesus made it clear that there are only two commandments of any validity, the fundys just can't resist the urge to begin making up new ones. I particularly like the one that goes, "You've gotta believe ON the name of Jesus Christ to be saved." Lemmeesee. Is that the "love god with a whole soul" commandment, or is that the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment? I can't decide.
Hope your dinner was as good as mine: chork pops w/ Kentucky green beans and rice.
ft
My $0.02
 
Francois
Francois 15 years ago


Mulan, you are a person after my own heart. I firmly belive that the greatest "christian" since Christ himself was Gandhi, who was Hindu. This of course is too much for your average fundy, who can't get past a juvenile, literalist interpretation of scripture.
For after Jesus made it clear that there are only two commandments of any validity, the fundys just can't resist the urge to begin making up new ones. I particularly like the one that goes, "You've gotta believe ON the name of Jesus Christ to be saved." Lemmeesee. Is that the "love god with a whole soul" commandment, or is that the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment? I can't decide.
Hope your dinner was as good as mine: chork pops w/ Kentucky green beans and rice.
ft
My $0.02
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Ha ha ha Mulan,
You reminded me. When I gave her the Birthday gift I had picked out, she unwrapped it and said "THANK you Jesus!"
I deadpanned, "Yea, he advanced me the money to get it for you."
My friend busted out laughing. Everyone else looked pained.
For the ass-munch who is questioning how many people were at a birthday party, maybe he/she/it should try attending one. The scripture you quoted, asshole, reinforces that the message was for the people of Israel.
"Christians." HA The most judgemental people on the face of the earth, deciding who will and won't be saved.
PS, Since YOUR bible teaches that only Christians will be saved, remind me not to EVER purchase that version. You may also want to use your grammar check when you use the word 'your' since you obviously don't know the difference between your and you're.
"And God makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous"
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


>But, I used the same reasoning on them that you did, about Muslims, and they all caved. Every last one of the family had to acknowledge that the whole world does not have to accept Christ. My point to them was that "a Christian may have a greater responsibility, but doesn't it say that he died for ALL men?" Interesting that we used the same points. I just want them to quit trying to convert me. It will never happen. The father (Pastor) seems to recognize this, but the others are too dense.
Why don't you wake up? They're trying to show you REAL Christianity and you whine about how happy that are. Why does that bother you so much? BTW, just like I told LDH, the doctrine of election is the answer to your question. Try picking up a commentary on the N.T. or ask the pastor without the rest around.
You need to get over the Watchtower slander.
Rex
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago

Hi Jan,
You join the ranks of the true apostates and reject God? BTW, God heals with surgeon's hands, chemist's drugs and sometimes miracles....sometimes he takes people home. Either way, HE is in control.
Rex
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


>Christians." HA The most judgemental people on the face of the earth, deciding who will and won't be saved.
NOPE, that's just what it teaches. John 14.6, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
>PS, Since YOUR bible teaches that only Christians will be saved, remind me not to EVER purchase that version.
Try something besides the NWT and you might emerge from the fog...
>You may also want to use your grammar check when you use the ord 'your' since you obviously don't know the difference between your and you're.
That's a common error in grammar and btw, it sounds a lot more civil than 'assmuch'. Is that one of your newfound joys, using vulgarities?
Yakki da
Rex
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Rex:
Not at all. Ass-munch is one of my all-time favorites. Thank you SOOOOO much for sharing the glorious good news about the Christ! You've taught me SOOOOOO much. NOT.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Hey Francois, my brother gave me a book five years ago, when I was just making my exit from the Borg. It is called Living Buddha, Living Christ. It literally screamed at me that if you live the Buddhist philosophy, you are also living Christianity. So, to all the critics of me and those who believe as I do, "what does God want? People who believe in Christ. Or Christians?"
 

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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Copernicus
Copernicus 15 years ago


Rex:
While you have as much right to hold opinions and speak about them as does anyone on this board (even. . . gasp . . . Fred Hall), I really have to wonder why you’re here. It’s very unlikely that you’ll find a sympathetic ear, especially with the rather condescending, belittling approach you display when examining the feelings of others.
Most of us here are pretty burned out on religion – the whole concept. That’s our privilege, and you can take it or leave it. But statements such as this -

Why don't you wake up? They're trying to show you REAL Christianity and you whine about how happy that are.
seem to me to be uncalled for. LDH has awoken, to a realization of having suffered what may have been many years of abuse in the WT. You’ll have to excuse LDH, or anyone else here, if they’re not anxious to again accept another “yoke” to be shared with someone as apparently obnoxious yourself. Jesus hardly attempted to draw followers to himself with the tactics you’ve displayed. And you do him no credit whatsoever by persisting in this way.
In my “career” as a Witness, I had MANY conversations with fundamentalist Christians, the vast majority of whom displayed very little bible knowledge. Their beliefs, like those of the JW’s, where based mainly on credulity and emotionality. They would often say ridiculous things like:

....sometimes he takes people home.
You mentioned in another post your “belief” that the churches of Christendom represent the combined “body of Christ”. I quoted you:
1 Corinthians 1:10 “Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
And suggested that Paul’s thought here always gave me pause for concern when I heard anyone make a statement such as you have. I also asked for your proof in support of such an assertion; which on its surface, is quite an absurd one to me.
I’m still waiting.
I would suggest, in a loving sort of way, that you might consider lightening up a bit. Many of us here are hurting – emotionally and spiritually. We don’t need huge doses of in your face fundy attitudes. Or, maybe you could find another board more simpatico with you antagonistic outreach ministry.
And by the way, I thought LDH’s account was hilarious.
Copernicus
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


LDH,
I loved your story. It's great when you can give a retort that throws their programming into default, and their automatic phrases lock up on them. I enjoy doing that myself.
Rex, I agree with Copernicous on this one. Most of us here react to any message from anyone that smacks of an in your face, condescending attitude. Of all your dialogue, I found your correction of Lisa's grammatical mistake (your versus you're) and your explaination to be the most offensive. Though the most minor of your comments, it reflected a pompousness on your part. (we have all made that mistake or similiar ones on occasion)
Also, I don't believe that God works through medicine and doctors as you assert. I think the scientists who developed the medicine and the doctors who spent years in intensive training should get the sole credit.
 
joelbear
joelbear 15 years ago


Mulan,
I read an introductory book on Buddhism about 1 year ago and walked away with the same impression you did. Basically, all religions have the same core tenets.
1. Have love for others.
2. Don't value material things more than you value each other.
I have a theory for this. I call it the Natural Guilt theory. That is, that we are born with a core value system that is part of nature's way of balancing our survival instincts against the needs of the greater whole of the living universe.
All religions start with this core, then dilute it as survival and territorial instincts kick in.
For example.
Love your neighbor and place books.
Love your neighbor and pray 5 times a day to Mecca.
Love your neighbor and keep the sabbath.
Love your neighbor and come to mass every day.
etc. etc. etc.
The core is there. Value the core.
hugs
Joel
 
TR
TR 15 years ago


Lisa,
You kill me, lady! Wanna get married?
TR

"Kults Suk"
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


MULAN
Though Buddhism is admirable in many respects for its similarity to Christianity, living the buddhist lifestyle does NOT mean that you are living as a Christian.
For there are major differences between Buddhism and Christianity (ie, they do not believe in God, and also ascribe to the concept of reincarnation, etc, etc)
God wants CHRISTIANS, and not just those who call themselves Christian by name, He wants those who believe wholeheartedly in Christ as Lord and King, and who follow His whole message to the best of their ability.....without foolish men like the WT standing in their way....
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Aren't you being just a little bit presumptious? Even your screen name, 'god_knows'? A little high and mighty, I think. What makes you think you know what God wants, and what kind of people he is looking for? Why is your opinion more valid than mine?
 
JanH
JanH 15 years ago


God_Knows:
Though Buddhism is admirable in many respects for its similarity to Christianity, living the buddhist lifestyle does NOT mean that you are living as a Christian.

True. Buddhists, for one, does not do anything to cram their beliefs down other people's throats. They do not teach they are the only truth. Their beliefs are open to scrutiny, debate and even revision. And, most importantly, judging by the Buddhists I have met and talked to, their religion has the ability to make people better, not worse.

- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


It is true that, by God's will (though not His desire) many will choose death over life, many will reject Jesus as Lord. They do this to the expense of their eternal life, believing they are right and God is wrong.
Translation: Do what I say and nobody gets hurt.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 15 years ago


Someone once said to me that an exJW has a wound. They have been lied to by religion. They have been hurt very deeply by friends and relatives in the name of religion. They have been 'true believers' and got the biggest shaft ever imaginable in return for that belief.
Any reminder is actually painful. It's the scab being torn of the wound. Someone says 'Thank you Jesus' and we cringe. Funny how we don't cringe when someone says, "Thank you Allah." Is it REALLY because we don't hear 'Allah' as much as 'Jesus', or is it a deep, unconscious reaction that makes us want to barf when we hear a happy Christian? And how often is the Christian really (outside of these type of forums) trying to 'cram their beliefs down our throats'? They don't even have to do THAT, do they? They only have to say, "Thank you Jesus" and our reaction is instant. Sometimes our comments to them are 'instant' too. How often are WE the ones challenging their beliefs and thus, just asking for an arguement?
And why is it that we generalize Christians? Where do we get this unspoken idea that Christian=fundie? Perhaps the reason is that NON-fundy Christians wouldn't be arguing with us or telling us that we are going to hell, and so we have no frame of reference. The world isn't back and white, and neither is Christianity. There are shades of grey all around us. Beautiful shades of gray. Throuble is we were trained not to see them. We don't even really believe they exsist.
---LisaBobeesa
(PS yes, I know nobody actually said, 'Christian=fundie' but some seem to hold this belief.)
Thanks for listening!
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


SEEKER
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and unbeliever, but by God's foreknowledge it is a simple fact that many will reject the truth, thinking that they can go their own way to be saved. God cannot help those who reject Him and will not listen. So He gives them up the the path which they alone have chosen to follow. God does not condemn them; THEY CONDEMN THEMSELVES.
MULAN
The bible makes it perfectly clear that the only ones who are saved are the ones who accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour who died for us all.
NO exeptions except for babies and small children who cannot understand sin, and cannot be held accountible, nor have the capability to learn and understand the Lord's word.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


MULAN
I should also add that my handle is chosen because my words are foolish and meaningless without the hepl of the Lord. I am NOTHING but a fly that can be swatted away. NO ONE, NO flesh can ever pretend to fully understand the mind of GOD.
Only GOD KNOWS the whole truth.
I love you all most sweetly, in Jesus's name!
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


god_knows........why do you post here? Were you ever a JW?
You are just so presumptious in your assessment of what the Bible says, and your interpretations of it. Where exactly, does it say that there is an exception for small babies and children? Again, I ask: Why is your opinion more valid than mine?
I still think God wants people who behave as Christians, more than people who have accepted Christ. But......I am NOT saying that those who accept Christ are less than those who do accept him, anymore than I believe that they are better. Who am I to make that kind of a statement? I like a comment that my brother makes quite often: "The world needs less Christians and more Christs."
And my husband has a sign in his office that says: "Jesus, deliver me from your followers." It is self explanatory to me, but if anyone needs it explained, I will be happy to do so.
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


God_Knows,
I think it is very rude of you to jump into this thread where people are talking about the kind of dialogue they find offensive. You come in with the very reteric they dislike. Why don't you show a modicum of good sense and post your ideas on another thread of your own making. You are a perfect example of the ill mannered nature of those who have this great need to foist their ideas on others. At best, you lack good manners. At worst, you are simply stupid.
 
Copernicus
Copernicus 15 years ago


Simply stupid gets my vote.
Religion IS a snare and a racket - there are no exceptions.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


You all seem to be mistaking me for a JW, and I am NOT, nor did I ever have any association with them. And DO not wish to do so. I am terribly disturbed at their dreadfully erroneous teachings that only lead people astray from the real truth.
But that does not take away from what Jesus said, that NO ONE cometh to the Father but by ME. It is not enough to do good works, the bible makes that perfectly clear that works do not save you. FAITH in the risen LORD is what saves, and that fAITH has to come first. Works are the fruits of that faith. You cannot put the cart before the horse as it were.
No matter what you might think of me, I LOVE you all most sweetly. Hugs and kisses to all of you.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Why do you NEVER answer my question, god_knows?
Don't you get it? Your self righteous attitude is exactly why we all dislike organized religion. You think you have all the answers.
None of us dislike you. It's your attitude, and your syrupy Christianity that is such a turn off.
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and unbeliever, but by God's foreknowledge it is a simple fact that many will reject the truth, thinking that they can go their own way to be saved. God cannot help those who reject Him and will not listen. So He gives them up the the path which they alone have chosen to follow. God does not condemn them; THEY CONDEMN THEMSELVES.
I know. Translation, once again: Do what I say and no one gets hurt.
It's really that simple. As you, yourself, just confirmed by the above.
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Mulan and Seeker,
I tryed to be as direct as I could with God_Knows and he still comes back. Question for the two of you: is there something wrong with the way I write or is there something wrong with the way he reads?
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

Hi Larc, You write great!! He is just a typical self righteous religious type. Like most of us used to be. We wouldn't have been so easily discouraged either. It's hard to remember that part of my past, but it was still there. And......it is still really irritating.
Thanks for your supportive remarks anyway!
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Mulan,
I remember those days very well, when I was one of God's chosen people, and I was at the door to find the sheep. However, after my attempt to "overcome objections" as I was taught to do, I did understand the meaning of "No", and I would leave the porch. I just wish that God_Knows would leave our porch, at least for a couple days. That's all I ask of him. (How can we miss him when he won't even leave?)
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

I actually think he is gone. He hasn't posted on this thread again, anyway. His last comment seemed to be a finale. I was like you too, towards the end especially. I was easily 'discouraged' by a householder, and left their porch quite agreeably!!
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


*sighs*
That is SHE to all of you, not HE.
I will go, but not without a great deal of sadness; There is no love anywhere in this world, only bitterness. I still love you all no matter what.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


Just one more thing though....
I hear what you all say baout organised religion; I myself am NOT part of any man's organised religion, for you can have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ without organised religion standing in your way.
I am so sorry that man's lies have turned you off the saviour. I will pray for you all. I love yuo.
 
digderidoo
digderidoo 15 years ago

Nice one lisa....i hope you socked it to them!!!
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


larc:

At best, you lack good manners. At worst, you are simply stupid.
Don't let this board get to you the way it's gotten to me at times. Keep your head level.
I can't believe I miss mds.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Larc, Mulan, Seeker, Copernicus and others:
God Knows and Rex are an example of the perfection of my argument, without even realizing it.
They immediately took my argument to be anti-Christian! The whole point of my post is how easily ANY religion can be derailed by this very simple argument. It just so happened it was a group of Christians.
WOW talk about missing the point!
Lisa
(PS TR we will have to elope in the middle of the night)
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

I emailed to God_knows not to stop posting. We actually need people like them here. I just advised him to stop preaching and just keep a dialog going. No one likes a preacher. (no one here, that is)
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


First of all, I did not correct anyone's grammar, that was someone else.
Second, I was merely pointing out that WTS reasoning on the Bible is usually so far off base that you can only confuse someone who is lacking in any scriptural knowledge. Evangelicals that have studied the various doctrines that are Biblical can show their veracity in the Bible.
Third, God has many houses that imperfect humans can use for worship. Differences in the true body of Christ are NOT in the areas of salvation, the nature of God nor of the two possible destinations of the immortal soul.
Fourth, there is no, 'one, true church' of any human organization and the warnings in various N.T. books against teachings clearly apply to specific heresies that were present at that time. Jesus' parable of the wheat and the tares shows this in an obvious way.
Fifth, people who have not taken the time to investigate the alternatives to the WTS are only denying Christ. If your last day occurs tomorrow, where will you be, saved for an eternity or lost for an eternity?
Sixth, your 'killing the messenger' while ignoring the implication of said message.
Did you know that God's grace is free and cannot be earned?
All that is required is for you to believe in the sacrifice of our Lord at the cross, ask forgiveness and repent of your past life of sin! Pick up your cross and follow Christ.
God loves you. John 2.16,
You are a sinner. Romans 3.23,
You are now dead in sin. Romans 6.23,
Christ died for you. Romans 5.6-8,
You can be saved by faith alone. Acts 16.30-31,
You can know you are saved. 1 John 5.10-13,
You can be obedient Acts 5.29
Read these with an open mind and open heart that God may bring salvation to your soul! It's time to shed your former beliefs and ask the Lord to whow you the way.
Rex
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


Hi, Mulan, thanks for writing. My name is Christina Douglas.
I really AM sorry that the lies of the WT have pushed you all away. I personally have no connection with any organised religion, because I have not found a good church yet. In that sense, I really CAN see where all of you are coming from. Though there is something to be said for going to church and celebrating with other believers, I prefer to stay at home, because in my own worship I find far more fulfillment than in any church around here.
I did not come here to judge you all, Jesus said Do NOT judge. I do hope, that in time, you might come to see who Jesus REALLY is.
I have nothing but LOVE for all of you, and I will be back if I am welcome.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Actually Rex, I am the one who corrected your grammar.
Furthermore, all of the 'cute' little quotes you got look like they are straight off of a Chick Tract.
Let's clarify. Jesus died to redeem all mankind. Where did HE say you had to believe in him in order to receive that gift? HA HA all of the scriptures you quoted were written by OTHERS and were not the words of JESUS your redeemer. Some who wrote those bible books you quoted never even MET Jesus let alone had a conversation with him.
The only two commandments that YOUR Lord gave were
1. Love your FATHER (not Love *ME*, the Great Jesus) with your whole HEART SOUL AND MIND
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
So *NO* loving Jesus is not a prerequisite for salvation. Neither is being baptised in his name. His death alone redeemed sinful mankind.
At least, that's what a *TRUE* Christian should believe.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


LDH
Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and might....and Jesus IS GOD. Blessigns and love to all of you. MULAN you are welcome to keep writing to me personally if you like!
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


GK...YAH that makes real good sense.....let's see. I'm standing in a crowd of followers, and I'm going to give them some basic directions.
Do I say:
1. Love the 6 foot tall amazon woman with a great sense of humor?
2. Love ME with all you heart?
1. Pray to me, who is in heaven, this way.
2. OUR father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Once again, you offend by adding YOUR two cents to Jesus words. Whereas I feel that what the man said stands on its own.
Now you may be perfectly happy with your concept of trinity. But I find it has no basis in scripture. So thanks but no thanks.
Keep your brand of Jesus. I'll keep mine.
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago


Let's clarify. Jesus died to redeem all mankind. Where did HE say you had to believe in him in order to receive that gift? HA HA all of the scriptures you quoted were written by OTHERS and were not the words of JESUS your redeemer. Some who wrote those bible books you quoted never even MET Jesus let alone had a conversation with him.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 John 3:16-18
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 John 6:19
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 John 6:40
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
 John 6:47
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I John 5:10-13
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Just like I said. If someone doesn't believe the Jesus from YOUR Bible they're dead meat.
So lordy lordy you better GET to proselytizing because if they haven't heard and accepted the name of Jesus they're DEAD DEAD DEAD.
God help the little Tibetan or Nigerian or Amazonian or Boznian who isn't lucky enough to get Robert Tilton Ministries on cable, huh?
Yes, your God sounds like someone I'd like to know. NOT.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40
I guess you ain't gettin raised up either. According to THIS scripture, not only do you have to BELIEVE on the Son, you also needed to SEE him.
Whatever.
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago


Since YOU brought up the subject of proselytizing, ... I have yet to walk up to anybody's door, uninvited, and proceed to interrupt their day by preaching to them. Can you say the same?
Even in this case, I did not chime in with unrequested information. My contribution was an answer to the question that YOU put out on the table.

Jesus died to redeem all mankind. Where did HE say you had to believe in him in order to receive that gift?
And think about the title to this thread ... "I witnessed to the *Christians* last night." Isn't that exactly what you used to do as a JW? Add to that the general intolerance of anybody else's belief system. You may as well be back in the Kingdom Hall. Have you really broken free?
JustAThought
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


I cannot believe your line of reasoning.
No wonder you have no faith. You seem to believe every last snippet of radical, higher critic, atheists like the Jesus Seminar. Jack Chick? I am supposed to be offended? Try reading the N.T. in the light of context and you will need a good commentary. I'd suggest the NIV commentary by Edwards or Martin Luther's commentary on Romans.
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father, except by me."
"No one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."
There is plenty of scripture to support all of the mainline protestant doctrines for anyone who wants to study the issue. Your JW brand of 'rationalism' is a tail chasing trap that leads only to the pit. They used to write really good posts on h2o that exposed the idiocy inherent in JW beliefs. Too bad you never saw them.
Rex
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


And if you had bothered to read the thread you would have realized my witnessing was in response to an OVERLOAD of JESUS.
NOT my desire to push my belief system off on others, but to defend the rights of people who don't beleive as THEY DO.
"Jesus save me from your followers"
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago

LDH,
Your lack of biblical understanding is really amazing, for someone who wants to critisize doctrine you have no clue. ELECTION, predestination, foreknowledge and add to that we admit there are things unknowable in the Bible, unlike the basic cult contentions that you seem to cling to.
I give up. If you won't even look at the issue in an honest matter, forget it.
Rex
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


HMMM......
So Lisa, an old hand here on this board and Witnet before this one, posts something that the fundies don't like.
Larc, TR, Mulan and many other well respected posters here actually ENJOY the post because they get the 'meaning of it.'
Then we have three newbies. God Know, Rex, and Just a Thought. Among whose first posts seek to defend the die-hard fundamentalism so many of us recognize WAY too easily.
It's too much for them to accept that there are 6 million people all over the world and all of them haven't read the Chick Tracts. You are welcome to post here, it's a free country.
But if you want to preach about Jesus start your own damn thread.
Lisa
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago


HMMM......
Let's see what replacement of just a few words will do ...
So Lisa, an old hand here in this group and the JW's before that, posts something that the Christians don't like.
Larc, TR, Mulan and many other well respected group members here actually ENJOY the post because they get the 'meaning of it' (i.e., it's an inside thing).
Then we have three outsiders. God Knows, Rex, and Just a Thought.
Among whose first posts seek to defend that die-hard Christianity we all so easily recognize as wrong.
Sound like anything familiar?
JustAThought
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
The Searcher
A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 5 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
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2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago

JustAThought: Try a modern English Bible. Geez! Who can understand all that middle ages English.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


First point- LDH
What do you think the bible means when it says (John 1:1)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
Or how about Rev. 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Or John 20:28 (After Thomas had seen the risen Jesus)
And Thomas answered And said unto him, My Lord and my God
Second point- to a number of you here.....not all, but some for sure.....
Is there no love anywhere within you? Is all you have within you a tendency to enjoy backbiting and malice? People have a right to choose for themselves what they will believe, we can talk to them all we want to, but unless they make a conscious choice to change their beliefs, we do not have the right to judge them for the paths they choose to follow.
Jesus commanded us to go to the world and teach the truth; but not to shove our beliefs down people's throats. Did JESUS do that NO.
No matter what happens, the command LOVE your neighbor still applies to everyone whether you are in agreement or not. WHY can you not LOVE each other? WHY does there have to be so much verbal mudslinging here? I myself might certainly not agree with your beliefs necessarily, but I LOVE every single one of you with the same passion that I share for the King. You can beat me up for this all you want to, and I will still love you all.
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


Maybe it's the pregnancy, but your fucking martyrdom is just too much for me.
Considering the fact that John 1:1 has not been explained in a satisfactory explanation by ANY religious group, I would say it has been bastarized.
Considering Revelation was nothing but an old man on an Alzheimer trip, I wouldn't put too much faith in it. Unless you really thing Jesus is motoring around heaven on a celestial chariot. Barf.
"In sweetest love with eternal hope spring forth from the wonderful words of our Good Book the Bible which teaches us how the Judeo-Christian peoples are BETTER than anyone else on earth how I do love you with a love so deep and I will pray for you, you poor sop."
Somebody get me a barf bag. The Fundies are praying for me.
Here, go get your supplies of the infamous Chick tracts to convert all the poor brown and yellow people to your God!
http://www.chick.com/default.asp
If you are seriously up for a beat-down, email me privately. I can arrange a meeting.
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


LDH:

Somebody get me a barf bag. The Fundies are praying for me.
LOL. I know what you mean.
 
jelly
jelly 15 years ago


LDH,

straight off of a Chick Tract.
The first time someone told me they had a 'chick tract' for me I got very excited, boy was I disappointed when I found out what they really were.
Jelly
 
JustAThought
JustAThought 15 years ago

How ironic is it that people who used to participate in what
must be the one of the most obnoxious religious groups in our
time decrying Chick tracts. At least nobody's shoving 'em in
your face and asking you to pay for publishing costs.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago

I still love you anyway.
 
reagan_oconnor
reagan_oconnor 15 years ago


Someone says 'Thank you Jesus' and we cringe.
Actually, I find that I don't cringe as much at that as when I hear "Jehovah." I can't equate God with Jehovah. Jehovah is the god of the JWs, not the God of Christianity. I know it's "just another name" but I can't get past the squirrelly feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever I hear/read the name "Jehovah" in reference to God.
"I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."
 
reagan_oconnor
reagan_oconnor 15 years ago


Rex said:

Did you know that God's grace is free and cannot be earned?
Why did we never hear this expressed by the Witnesses? Why did they never discuss "grace?"

"I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


God_Knows:
We love you too. Although we don't really know who you are, it is apparent that you care deeply for others. Here's a thought...
Why don't you try loving others because Jesus told you to and quit trying to push your silly trinity doctrine? That seems to be part of the problem here, your message of love is being overridden by your pushing of an illogical doctrine that in all honesty you probably have never thoroughly investigated logisticly.
Now, if you HONESTLY love people, why don't you just go away? I know your really here to justify yourself and try to be a good christian, but please turn off your computer, go outside and do things to help others that will really see your good works. You're not helping anyone here. There might be an old lady down the street who needs groceries, or a poor man that needs a bowl of soup, and they sit there and suffer because people like you are doing exactly what the witnesses do... Your pushing your silly doctrinal agenda instead of helping your fellow humans.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


IANAO
I will teach only what I know to be the truth, confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost. I will never deny the truth that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD.
It is only that I have had a hard time learning that you can only talk about certain things for just so long; after that you push people away, and that hurts the cause of Christ Jesus the King.
People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Jesus is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea.
What you choose to believe is entirely your business in the end. I will love you anyway, for I did not come here to judge. But as long as there are other people on this forum who have questions and are willing to listen, I will not abandon them. I will be there for them as long as they need me. Even you too if you ever have any questions. I am not going away until the Lord directs me to move on. I go by His will and His alone.
Hugs and kisses to you and every single one of you here!
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


God Knows,
The Lord just called. He can't find your phone number. He wants me to tell you to Go Away.
Lisa
 
Tina
Tina 15 years ago


LOL (((((((lisa)))))))))))))
psssssst BETHelMOle's the name
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Jesus is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea.
Wrong.
I would have no problem accepting Jesus as God -- if there was any evidence for this. There is none. No one has ever provided any, just platitudes, wishes, hopes, and harangues. I could just as easily say to you:
"People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Vishnu is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea."
If you now do no accept that Vishnu is God, I can only assume that you do not like the idea.
 
taoistpunk
taoistpunk 15 years ago


It saddens me that all of you are shoving your beliefs down each others necks. Jesus this, dumb christians that, who cares. So what if we all believe in different faiths, that is what makes us all individuals, or do you all like being sheep? Believe in something for yourself. It shouldn’t matter if you believe in Jesus, Buddha, Zen, the way, Satan, or the crap on the bottom of your shoe, as long as you feel inside that it's good. OH, and JanH....ROCK ON!!!!!!
I'm Taoist for me, not to please you, and if that means I'm going to a hell than so be it.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


SEEKER
Blessings and love to you, sweet one.
I have provided many bible passages, I think in another thread, actually, to show the truth that Jesus is Lord and GOD.
How about, to keep things short, Rev. 1, Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 John 8:56,58, 1John 5:7, just to name a few examples.
Do you believe that there is only ONE LORD and ONE GOD?
Greatest love to all of you, Lotsa kisses too!
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


SEEKER
Blessings and love to you, sweet one.
You can leave off the compliments when talking to me. I'm sure you mean well, but I'm not your sweet one. Just say, "Seeker" and move on to your argument and we'll get along better. Thank you.

I have provided many bible passages, I think in another thread, actually, to show the truth that Jesus is Lord and GOD.
How about, to keep things short, Rev. 1, Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 John 8:56,58, 1John 5:7, just to name a few examples.
That doesn't prove Jesus is Lord any more than Hindu writings prove to you that Vishnu is Lord. What makes the Bible right and all other holy writings wrong?

Do you believe that there is only ONE LORD and ONE GOD?
No evidence either way, therefore I say, I don't know.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


The bible says there is only ONE LORD and ONE GOD. All the rest are either demons or simply nonexistent.
So I guess I should have asked you then; Do you believe in the Bible?
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


God_Knows:

I will teach only what I know to be the truth, confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost. I will never deny the truth that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD.
Thank you for at least admitting that. Also, thank you for admitting that you are only interested in pushing your silly doctrine. Then again, as I look at your reaction to me and others, you may not clearly understand what a doctrinal viewpoint is. I would show you a little bit about it (as much as I COULD show you), but I am tired of bantering about while you LITERALLY have your head in the clouds and can't understand a word I am saying to you.

It is only that I have had a hard time learning that you can only talk about certain things for just so long; after that you push people away, and that hurts the cause of Christ Jesus the King.
That is completely obvious. You have totally missed the point of my previous post. Maybe you are PUSHING PEOPLE AWAY because you want to argue whether or not the ONE LORD is the ONE GOD (That's TWO entities, BTW). Have you ever thought of discussing the virtues of Jesus' message?

People have told me time and time again that they cannot accept that Jesus is God, but they will not back up their statements. They can only say that they do not like the idea.
Wrong. I have backed up my statements either in this thread or in another. You declared to me beforehand that I wouldn't respond to you. Did you even read my post? Probably not. You probably looked away because you were afriad of using your noodle in a way that would throw you out of your social clique with the folks back in church.

What you choose to believe is entirely your business in the end.
I'm glad you realize that! So now, will you PLEASE quit trying to convert people when you don't even understand your own doctrinal basis? No, probably not. You probably don't even know what I am talking about, do you?

I will love you anyway, for I did not come here to judge.
Unfortunately, all you have been doing is judging (without even saying a word!)

But as long as there are other people on this forum who have questions and are willing to listen, I will not abandon them. I will be there for them as long as they need me.
Translated: "I am going to continue to justify my belief system until I have learned not to question it. I will disguise this as a need to lead others to the lord."

Even you too if you ever have any questions.
Thanks but no thanks! I've been where you are today. I can only say that their are a bunch of hot lookin' babes in a full-gospel penecostal church. Other than that, it was of no benefit. And please don't hand me any crap about "I didn't sincerely listen to the message." I listened, and when I started having questions that the preacher couldn't answer, all he could do is banter on about "unfortunate mistranslations" and "his thoughts are higher than our thoughts". After I asked him why God even wrote a book for us in the first place then, he grew pale and avoided me totally.

I am not going away until the Lord directs me to move on.
Translated: "I am not going away until I decide to do so."

I go by His will and His alone.
Translated: "I will do as I please."

Hugs and kisses to you and every single one of you here!
Hugs right back (don't know you well enough for a kiss).
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


So I guess I should have asked you then; Do you believe in the Bible?
No. Do you believe the Qu'ran?
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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I *witnessed* to the *Christians* last night--LOL!
by LDH 15 years ago 95 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


*Sighs*
I can only guess who that was directed at, but if that is me, I already said, TINA, that I am not a JW, and disapprove of the WT teachings.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago

Ok.
Do I believe in the Koran? NO. Because it denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, and also denies His sacrifice.
 
God_knows
God_knows 15 years ago


ALL of you....
I am so deeply saddened by the abusivness that I am seeing on this board. And IANAO'S continuing to twist my words around, saying mean things I would never say to any of you.
I love you all so very much and that will never change. My heart is in anguish at the level of malice and lack of love that I see from so many (I will not say "ALL" because that would be a lie; but it does apply to many here)
Jesus taught us to LOVE all people, and that there is no room for hate in us.
Tomorrow (I cannot do it at the moment) I will contact administration here to cancel my account here. I feel the Holy Ghost's insistence that I leave.
You are all welcome to write to me personally, though, my email is whitetiger99_99@lycos.com.
MULAN; you are a sweetheart, and I will love you forever. I do appreciate the email you sent a few days ago, but I relly think I must go.
LDH,
God bless and keep you sweetheart, and I pray that your baby will be strong and fine.
 
Seeker
Seeker 15 years ago


Do I believe in the Koran? NO. Because it denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, and also denies His sacrifice.
And the Bible does not extol Mohammed as God's prophet, so clearly the Bible shouldn't be believed by your reasoning.
 
expatbrit
expatbrit 15 years ago


I have a piece of paper in front of me. It's a message from God. It tells me that the way to heaven consists of always mixing vodka martinis in the ratio of six to one.
I know that this is the word of God, because at the bottom it says "this is a message from God".
The bible, on the other hand, is a false book, since it says absolutely nothing about martinis.
Come all, and be a martini's witness. Drink life's martinis free! (cocktail shaker required)
Expatbrit
 
taoistpunk
taoistpunk 15 years ago

Expatbrit,
 FREE SHAKER! I'm game.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 15 years ago


Question: Why is it that exJWs often get more offended by Christians expressing their faith than the genneral, non-Christian public?
Question: Why do ex-JWs enjoy arguing with Christians?
Question: When someone says they believe in the Trinity because of what they read in the Bible, WHY MUST we tell them they are WRONG? Why not just say, "Interesting belief."
Question: And if we insist on telling them they are wrong and why, then what is it that makes us any different than the Christian you THINK is preaching to you?
Question: Why are we so POSITIVE we are RIGHT? (Hummmm.......Wern't we just as sure we were right when we were.....?) Isn't there the smallest possibility we could be WRONG about some Biblical issues?
HINT:
 What other group likes to argue with main stream Christians, feels that they MUST tell people of other faiths that they are WRONG, and is absolutly, 100% sure they are correct in everything they believe they know about the Bible? What other group is unable to see any reason why people could possibly believe differently unless they are stupid or ignorant?
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 15 years ago


The problem is that you keep drawing a conclusion comparing apples and oranges. Real Christianity, i.e. 'fundamentalism' is totally different from cults like JWs and others. These groups are easily spotted if you know what to look for:
They use the same words yet change or twist the meaning.
They are authoritarian, top down structure for doctrinal beliefs.
They promote long disproven heresies as the 'real truth'.
They promote themselves as 'better' than other 'religions' or 'christians'.
They ignore the fact that a 'saved' Christian can still sin but should gradually improve, faith first and works as a result of their dedication.
They pretend to be 'Biblical' but have their own peculiar beliefs that actually deny well-researched, verifiable teachings.
Quacking away about how smart you are when you have been shown to know very little will not change the fact that you are hopelessly wrong.
R.
 
Mulan
Mulan 15 years ago


Well I hope you guys are happy.  You drove away a perfectly nice gal.
It seems so unnecessary to attack the way some of you do. I am just venting, but I hope you feel some shame.
I wrote her hoping she will change her mind.
Marilyn (Mulan)
 
rosBeacon
rosBeacon 15 years ago


Hello, lisaBObeesa
I’d like to take make a pass at answering your questions.

Question: Why is it that exJWs often get more offended by Christians expressing their faith than the genneral, non-Christian public?
Could you be a little more precise in which exJWs you are talking about? Some exJWs are Christians.
From my Christian perspective, there is a difference between expressing your faith and preaching it. I don’t get offended at anyone expressing their beliefs, whether it be Christian or non-Christian or non-religious. Fundamentalists believe that unless we accept their specific belief, we will be tortured in fire for eternity. People coming out of the Watchtower are often fed up with religious absolutism, and just don’t want that kind of dogma pushed at them. Especially the ones who have a better understanding of the Biblical issues than the ones preaching them.

Question: Why do ex-JWs enjoy arguing with Christians?
Again, your question presumes all exJWs are not Christians. May we conclude that you have been drawn to Evangelical religion?
I happen to believe that some exJWs who are not trinitarian ARE Christian. Myself, for example. And for a fact I do not enjoy-—in fact avoid-—arguing with Fundamentalists.
Do you know of any board that is specifically for Evangelical Christians where exJWs go to argue with them on their turf about their beliefs? It seems the other way around to me.

Question: When someone says they believe in the Trinity because of what they read in the Bible, WHY MUST we tell them they are WRONG? Why not just say, "Interesting belief."
Well I for one do not argue trinity with people who believe it. I do not believe it is an issue for salvation and don’t see the need to convince them they are wrong. In my experience, it’s the people who believe the trinity who try to force-feed their belief to people who don’t agree. I would be lying if I said it was interesting.
Question: And if we insist on telling them they are wrong and why, then what is it that makes us any different than the Christian you THINK is preaching to you?
Again and again, it seems to me that you have the issue reversed. They come in telling us WE are not Christians (in fact you have been implying the same) and don’t know the “real Jesus”. I say we are perfectly justified in voicing disagreement with them, in fact, being offended. However, I don’t argue it; I just don't blame people who do.
Now let me ask you another question: Do you believe we should point out to Jehovah’s Witnesses that they are wrong and why?

Question: Why are we so POSITIVE we are RIGHT? (Hummmm.......Wern't we just as sure we were right when we were.....?) Isn't there the smallest possibility we could be WRONG about some Biblical issues?
By “we” should be suppose you do not believe you (as in “we”) are right?
Let me quote you a “Murphy’s Law” I like that refers to a Biblical proverb:
“The race is not always to the swift or the victory to the strong.” But that’s the way to bet!
If I make a fairly in-depth study of something and find that the vast preponderance of circumstantial evidence supports one way that may have a profound effect on my life, it is not wise to bet on the remote possibility that the other way is right. Its like buying a lottery ticket. I may think you are foolish to buy a lottery ticket. That’s MY opinion. BUT—-I have to admit, it is POSSIBLE you will win! But I wouldn’t bet on it. The point is, all we can do is go with what seems right to us.
[quote]HINT:
What other group likes to argue with main stream Christians, feels that they MUST tell people of other faiths that they are WRONG, and is absolutly, 100% sure they are correct in everything they believe they know about the Bible? What other group is unable to see any reason why people could possibly believe differently unless they are stupid or ignorant?[quote]
Let’s turn that question around again: Which ones do not?
Why do you think your question does not fit “mainstream” Christians? Do you include Catholics, Mormons, Lutherans, etc.? Evangelicals don’t.
 
larc
larc 15 years ago


Ros,
That was spot on (a term I learned from Simon's writing.) People, in general, don't like to be preached to, and former JWs find it especially offensive, I think. They want to find their own way in their own time, and do not want anything pushed at them ever again.
The Christians I like are ones who might mention what they are doing, but don't push anything on me. I will give two examples. One friend of mine is a retired financial officer from a hospital. He serves on the budget committee at his local United Methodist Church. He will tell me about what he is doing and his churches' challenges. Not once has he preached to me. Another friend of mine is Catholic. His daughter is a good singer and sings on occassion at his Catholic Church. He has asked me to come hear her sing. He has never preached to me either.
I have my own beliefs and values. I do not try to convert anyone to my way of thinking. If someone asks, I will tell them, but I never express them otherwise. Ros, that is one thing I like about BRCI. It is a support group that has core values, but it does not push dotrine.
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


Mulan:

Well I hope you guys are happy. You drove away a perfectly nice gal.
No, she drove herself away. She came in here wanting to convert everybody and show them the true faith. If she was only interested in love then she would have told us that and then not started referring to truth, etc. etc.

It seems so unnecessary to attack the way some of you do. I am just venting, but I hope you feel some shame.
Yeah, it's hard for some of us to ignore having her beliefs crammed down our throat as ultimate divine revelation from God.

I wrote her hoping she will change her mind.
I hope she doesn't. I hope she stays in her protected little world where she can be of some use at her church to folks who really need some help. If she comes back here and stays long enough with the preachy preachy attitude, then she's going to be in for a real wake up call!
 
ianao
ianao 15 years ago


God_Knows:

ALL of you....
Uh oh...

I am so deeply saddened by the abusivness that I am seeing on this board. And IANAO'S continuing to twist my words around, saying mean things I would never say to any of you.
Forgive me for not feeling much remorse at all for "twisting your words around". I realize that much of what you do is what you are taught and that your intentions are genuine and loving. Would you rather I fibbed and humored you for awhile and then try to change the subject, or would you rather have a genuine conversation?

I love you all so very much and that will never change.
I appreciate that. Sounds great! At least you won't be going around being a poor excuse for a human being.

My heart is in anguish at the level of malice and lack of love that I see from so many (I will not say "ALL" because that would be a lie; but it does apply to many here)
The only malice you see are people who don't like being preached to, that's all. Try getting wrapped up in a cult (even superficially) one day, and you may understand.
 
Tina
Tina 15 years ago


godknows,
 You miss many points here. I was laughing at Lisa's reaction to your inane fundamentalism,as I too think it's funny.
 I'm not a jw nor a christian period,so I don't know what you not believing in jw doctrine is supposed to mean.
 I have no use for crusaders and proselytizers and their messages. Simple.......Have a nice day.Tina
psssssst BETHelMOle's the name
 
LDH
LDH 15 years ago


GK REX LisaOB and any other 'dyed in the wool' Christian.
You all seem to miss the point of the entire post, which is, not that I was trying to prove anyone wrong or right but simply showing that frequently the 'truth we know' is based on nothing more than culture or how we have been acclamated towards religion.
It is safe to say, if you were born on the Mongolian Steppes, you would know nothing of Jesus, but you would still have a code of conduct given to all mankind as a gift from our heavenly Father. (Ifyou choose to believe in God at all, that is.)
In EVERY culture it is wrong to kill, steal, covet, etc etc etc. These laws are universal and do not hinge on any religious upbringing. Therefore all humans can recognize God to their own understanding, even if they don't know a darn thing about Jesus, Mohammed, Vishnu etc etc etc.
I have NO BEEF with 'Christians' or any other religious group. But by the same token I'm not going to sit around and listen to a bunch of dumb asses talk about how 'blessed they are' and how 'unfortunate' everyone else is.
Doesn't that remind you of a story in the Bible, of the man who prayed in the temple thanking God for 'not being like the sinners?' It smacked of hypocrisy, and due to my own upbringing I could spot it a mile away.
Lisa
 
LDH
LDH 14 years ago


bttt
The Dredger's Mistress LOL
 

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Topic Summary
thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!
(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.
blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?



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John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
The Searcher
A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 5 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago



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Our Letter to Our Family
by What Now? 2 months ago 22 Replies latest 2 months ago   jw experiences
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What Now?
What Now? 2 months ago

Our families have cut off contact with us for the last several months. They found out that we were celebrating holidays with our non-witness family.
Our families were our last tie to the organization, as our former friends stopped associating with us about 3 years ago.
This is a letter that I recently sent to our family. We felt that we owed them an explanation for our decision, to give both them and ourselves a sort of closure.
I wanted to post it here, because I was helped immensely in my exit by reading the experiences of others ... and if reading my letter helps somewhere here, even just to articulate their feelings, it will be worthwhile.
Please note that I've highlighted a portion of the letter that are not my words - they are from an article written by Daniel Genser (What I Believe To Be True, and How I Have Come To Believe It - a very good read, highly recommended). He expressed the same sentiments as me better than I could. There are probably other sentiments and phrases scattered throughout that I've read here on this forum, or other articles written by others too.
Dear Mom, (my sister) and (my sister),
It seems we have reached the inevitable conclusion that we have been heading towards for the past five years, and it breaks our hearts that you are choosing to change your relationship with our family because of it.
While we understand that the leaders of your religion require you to do this, we do not agree with it. However, we feel we owe you something of an explanation for our decisions. Please do us the courtesy of reading this letter in its entirety – this is after all, a decision that affects our entire lives!
This is not at all about wanting to celebrate holidays, or about the sins and crimes that others within the organization have committed. This is not about being depressed, burnt out, or hurt by others in the congregation. This is not about our extended family, and wanting a relationship with them over you.
The simple fact of the matter is, we just do not believe what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach.
Please understand that this is not something new for us. Even as children, (my husband) and I both knew that the so called “truth” wasn’t in our hearts. To be fair, we did try very hard to find a place in the organization, and it was different when it was just the two of us - we could go through the motions and it didn’t hurt anybody but ourselves. But once we had our children, we had to honestly ask ourselves whether we could, in good conscience, raise them in this religion - raise them to believe this was “the truth”. Ultimately, after months of soul searching, and legitimate questioning and research, the answer was no.
We don’t want you to think that our experience in the organization was 100% negative, because it wasn’t . We have many fond memories from growing up in the congregation, and we will admit that there are some aspects of the religion that we like, and will even miss, and people whose friendships we treasured very much. But when we weigh those few positive things against the many negatives, we must follow our hearts and consciences out of the organization.
We can no longer support the beliefs and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses, some of which are harmful (the blood doctrine, shunning), and others which are downright bizarre and unscriptural (“overlapping” generations (lol), the concept of “new light” as used by the organization, the faithful and discreet slave etc). We also cannot support the “god-like” status of the governing body,which has become disturbingly more evident in the past couple of years.
You ask us, where else would we go to learn about Jehovah? The truth is, we were troubled for years that we had to continually contort our minds to see Jehovah as an all-loving person, when all evidence IN PLAIN PRINT points otherwise. The God of Abraham as presented in the Bible is a jealous, vindictive, capricious misogynist who commits widespread genocide, and can’t live by his own rules. He is the worst example of a parent we can imagine – the stories of Adam and Eve, the flood, and Abraham and Isaac come to mind. If we as parents did some of the things Jehovah has done, we would end up in jail. The Jehovah of the bible has all the hallmarks of an abusive husband (google it!), not a perfect, just, supreme being, and he is not someone we welcome into our home.
We do believe the Bible has value — philosophically, historically, and anthropologically. There are recurring themes of social justice and personal emancipation that we find inspiring.
On the other hand, the Mosaic Law is extremely sexist. And the myths of Genesis often promote extremely immoral acts — Lot offers his own daughters to appease a rapey mob . Lot’s wife is turned to salt for one moment of looking back at the city she spent her entire life in, while God is OK with Lot’s stalling and negotiating. How about the poor concubine of Judges 19:22-30 who was gang raped, murdered and cut up into 12 pieces? What are we supposed to learn from this disgusting, horrible story? Abraham undergoes the mental anguish of having his God ask him to murder his son. Isaac undergoes a near death experience at the hand of his God. Abraham, Solomon, David, and many other Israelite kings had harems, yet fornication is a capital offense. Wives are always ‘taken’ — consent is almost never mentioned in the Bible. God kills all male firstborn of Egypt for crimes they didn’t commit. Joshua leads a complete genocide against the nations of Canaan, on God’s orders. Samson is a psychotic murderer who God is buddies with. And the list goes on and on throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.
We appreciate the themes of freedom and personal emancipation found in the Christian scriptures. Jesus was an apostate. He saw what was missing in the religion of his upbringing, and revolutionized it, getting kicked out of the Synagogue in the process — sure social and economic death, at the time. Jesus emphasized love for all, regardless of personal circumstance, and dramatically condemned Pharisaical legalism. It is quite possible to be inspired by the stories of Jesus, without subscribing to the cult of his death.
In the matter of holidays, please be assured that they have no religious significance for us. And we’re not sure at this time what fun and cherished family traditions may be created as these holidays come up. But we would like to make it clear that the bible literally does not say anything about the celebration of modern holidays or birthdays. What it does say is not to add to the things written (Revelation 22:18). What it does say is that “one man judges one day as above another. Another judges one day as the same as all the others. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind ... And who are you to judge the servant of another?” (Romans 14:1-5). As parents, we consider the days our children were born as two of the most important days of our entire lives , more precious to us than even our own wedding day. To acknowledge, and celebrate those days seems only natural to us. After all, the gift of life was so precious, that the father sent the son to redeem it. Why wouldn’t you rejoice and celebrate? Would the devil want you to celebrate something he tried to get you to lose in the first place? And if you are concerned about pagan origins, we would urge you to then reconsider your own position on the matters of wearing white on your wedding day, having bridesmaids, going on a honeymoon, wedding rings, wearing mascara, having a pinata at a party, and perhaps stop using the calendar as the days of the week and months are named after mythological gods. And while we are on the subject, perhaps the wearing of neckties should be banned due to their origins in the military.
While we don’t know if we’d place any ‘labels’ on our belief system at the moment, the closest thing that fits is probably Secular Humanism. We are deeply invested in our children, and every day we are humbled by the responsibility of parenthood. We hope very much to by example teach them kindness, justice, cooperation, respect and tolerance. Alongside science, history, philosophy and the arts, we want to teach them about all religions and give them the intellectual freedom to wonder, question and come to their own conclusions. And if their conclusions are different from ours, as many inevitably will be, we will respect them. We hope to encourage a lifetime of curiousity, questioning and exploration in the pursuit of more knowledge and their own truth. To teach them that THIS LIFE is our gift and our purpose. It’s our opportunity to live richly and to make lasting and meaningful change for society and humanity.That, we believe, is the greatest gift we can give to them as parents.


Mom, you say that because I am a mother, I can understand what a difficult decision this is for you. But it is precisely because I am a mother that I cannot agree with or respect your choice. Because I am a mother, I finally know what unconditional love is, and I know that there is nothing in this universe that could ever change the relationship I have with my children. For a religion to destroy the bond that should naturally exist between a parent and their child is one of the most evil things I can imagine. But I understand why the governing body must be so strict about the disfellowshipping policy - If people could leave without the threat of losing their friends and family, they would lose half the membership, if not more.
Don’t be mistaken though – disfellowshipping and shunning is NOT a loving arrangement. Shunning of any person, in the hopes that this will make them miss the association of their friends and family and therefore return to the organization, is emotional blackmail. Threatening your children with emotional isolation and abandonment to keep them in your religion is not love, its abuse.
You say that you love us, but you can’t. Words cannot be seperated from action. You can’t say that you love someone, and then treat them as if they are dead.
Please know that it doesn’t have to be this way. In your own literature, it says that if a family member is disfellowshipped, only the spiritual bond is broken, not the family bond, and so normal family relations can continue. What difference does it make whether that family member is living in the same home or not? If there is scriptural evidence that says otherwise, please show us, we would love to see it. Please note that we will not consider anything from the Mosaic Law as evidence. Often quoted is the fact that even Isrealite parents were required to take part in stoning their children if they sinned, thus severing family ties. Aside from the fact the Mosaic Law was voided upon Jesus death, the Isrealites were an apostate nation that was rejected by god. Why would Jehovah’s modern day organization want to do ANYTHING they did, in principle or otherwise?
If you were to do an honest and objective examination of the support for the disfellowshipping policy (even so called evidence from the Christian Greek scriptures), we’re sure you will find that, like so much of witness doctrine, it is a misapplication of scripture that was never intended to apply to family.
In the past few years, we have shared countless good times that have become treasured memories for us and the kids, that have had nothing to do with this religion. They were based on love and normal family relationships, and special family events and milestones. It had felt, for the past couple of years that we were having the best relationship we had ever had with each other in our entire lives. We see no reason why that cannot continue.
Don’t let this religion rob you of the joys and and experiences that should naturally happen between grandparents and grandchildren, and aunts and neices and nephews.
Yes, we chose to leave the Jehovah’s Witness religion. But you have a choice too. And if you choose to shun our family, any resulting heartache is on your shoulders, and yours alone. We will not be blamed for it. If you do choose to cut off contact with our family though, in a way we thank you, because it makes us even more certain that this organization is not the place for us. We don’t want to be part of a community where parents are expected to do that to their children.
Please remember too that you once left the religion of your families and caused them much heartache and grief. Imagine, the sadness they must have felt, to suddenly lose the opportunity to celebrate cherished holidays and birthdays with their grandchildren, and to have much limited association with them. They did not turn their backs on you. They didn’t cut off all contact with you. They didn’t disinherit you. They came to terms with the fact that you were doing what you thought was in the best interests of your family, and even though they did not understand or agree, they knew that FAMILY is one of the greatest gifts in life, and treated it as such.
And please do not be angry with your extended family. They love and respect you very much and are deeply concerned about your feelings, and do not wish to hurt or embarrass you in any way. They are all just trying to do the best they can to find balance in a difficult situation. You can’t fault them for that. They are our family too, as imperfect as ALL of us are at times. No ones imperfections and mistakes define them (thank goodness!). And they are, it seems, the family that will stick by us no matter what.
To end this letter, we’d like to share with you these three very thought provoking quotes:
“No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family”. (July 2009 Awake, pg 29)
“The distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.” ( `When Organized Religion Becomes A Cult`, Diane Benscoter)
"...When our own thoughts are forbidden, when our questions are not allowed and our doubts are punished; when contacts & friendships outside of the organisation are censored, we are being abused for an end that never justifies its means. When our heart aches knowing we have made friendships and secret attachments that will be forever forbidden if we leave, we are in danger. When we consider staying in a group because we cannot bear the loss, disappointment and sorrow our leaving will cause for ourselves and those we have come to love, we are in a cult."----Deborah Layton, Jonestown survivor. (from the book: Seductive Poison, page 299. Anchor Books, New York, 1998)
We love you all very much, and it is our sincere hope that one day you too will wake up to the truth as we have, before too much more of your life is wasted in this religion.
Our door is always open, and you can see our family whenever you want.
Love always, your family,
 +33 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 2 months ago

"We don’t want you to think that our experience in the organization was 100% negative, because it wasn’t . We have many fond memories from growing up in the congregation, and we will admit that there are some aspects of the religion that we like, and will even miss, and people whose friendships we treasured very much. But when we weigh those few positive things against the many negatives, we must follow our hearts and consciences out of the organization."
Great letter. I loved this part, as well as where you put their choice on their own shoulders and denied their right to dump it on you.
Very powerful stuff.
 +11 / -0
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 2 months ago
BTTT
 +1 / -0
John Free
John Free 2 months ago
A very well written, thought provoking letter. And a moving story. Very best wishes to you and your family, we share your pain.
 +3 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 2 months ago
Damn, is it too late to take back letters I've sent my own family so I can use this one? Amazing letter that I l-o-v-e! Well done doesn't begin to describe how I feel. I may borrow some of that for a letter I plan to send on the anniversary of my own shunning.
 +5 / -0
What Now?
What Now? 2 months ago

Thank you JWDaughter, John Free, dubstepped.
This letter is the result of a lot of years of built up thoughts and feelings - everything that I ever wanted to say to my parents, but couldn't.
 +4 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 2 months ago

A very very good letter.
I can never understand how the WTBTS can ignore the counsel of Romans 14 5 & 6
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.…

 +1 / -0
freddo
freddo 2 months ago
Superb. Just brilliant. Thank you for posting.
 +1 / -0
Zana
Zana 2 months ago

I especially like this part: Very moving, very convincing:

Mom, you say that because I am a mother, I can understand what a difficult decision this is for you. But it is precisely because I am a mother that I cannot agree with or respect your choice. Because I am a mother, I finally know what unconditional love is, and I know that there is nothing in this universe that could ever change the relationship I have with my children. For a religion to destroy the bond that should naturally exist between a parent and their child is one of the most evil things I can imagine.
 +5 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 2 months ago
Absolutely brilliant.
 +4 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 2 months ago

Excellent letter.
If I need to write one (again), I'll be sure to take it as an example.
Thanks for sharing.
I hope your family really understands what you wrote...
 +2 / -0
What Now?
What Now? 2 months ago

Thank you all for your support!
In my last conversation with my mother, she played the victim, saying things like "YOU'RE the one that's changed", "YOU'RE the reason our relationship has to end". It was important for me to point out that they have a choice too, that they're hurting us just as much.
No response from any of them yet...
 +4 / -0
truthseekeriam
truthseekeriam 2 months ago
Great letter! I think it will help many others struggling to find the right words with their families. Thanks for sharing.
 +2 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 2 months ago
I really liked how you pointed out that it is their choice to shun you and if they suffer it is because of that. Much like you said though, they are taught to play the victim. Like any good narcissist, they will always view things through their eyes only, and that's what the Borg teaches. You're the one that left, so you get all of the blame. Victim shaming is the thing now, all the cool kids are doing it. It didn't strike me until many years into shunning my brother who was DF'ed that he might have feelings too. I had never thought about DF'ing from the other side and what those people must feel like. That was an eye opener for me. I hate what Jehovah's Witnesses do to families and just human beings, tearing them apart and making them think about themselves only. It is a sick cult. I'm so sorry that you're facing this. My wife and I both lost our families because we broke rank and spoke with my DF'ed brother after well over a decade. The shunning started, and since we DA'ed it is official. They are sad, small minded people, and I was once the same way. If your family chooses to shun, maybe someday they too will come around.
 +2 / -0
Butyoucanneverleave
Butyoucanneverleave 2 months ago
Wow! That really puts things in perspective. I hope that your family can see what that cult does to families. It destroys them. So much for family values. I have to say that those bible stories are disturbing.
 +1 / -0
PaintedToeNail
PaintedToeNail 2 months ago

This is a really thought provoking letter. I hope your family can get past the sections that are highlighted quotes. My mother would stop reading at that point and burn the letter (it doesn't matter if it is true). She would be so shocked to read those words! The part where you put the blame back on themselves is perfect. Love the reasoning.
Excellent work all around!
 
MrsR-Awaken
MrsR-Awaken 2 months ago
What a wonderful eye opening letter!! I wish I had the guts to tell all that to my family. Thanks so much for sharing this and I will definitely be taking notes on it and mabey someday I will show my family who I really am because I'm sick of this horrible religion!!! My husband finally is by my side on this so that is a plus!! But I wish you to continue living a long happy life with your family. And I really hope that moves your parents to opening their eyes to this brain washing cult.
 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 2 months ago

A brilliant letter What Now , however I doubt that your parents would finish reading it , if ever they even started to read it .
I think lurkers and newbies will gain more from it than your parents .
I hope I`m wrong , about your parents , it would be lovely if they did read it and meditated on your words , though I would`nt hold my breath on that.
P.S. Welcome to the board Mrs R-Awaken , I`m glad to hear your hubby is supportive of you .
All of you take care
smiddy
 +1 / -0
nicolaou
nicolaou 2 months ago

Awesome letter What Now?
In my last conversation with my mother, she played the victim, saying things like "YOU'RE the one that's changed", "YOU'RE the reason our relationship has to end".
You might enjoy this topic from a couple of years back . .
"You knew what the consequences were when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility."
 
What Now?
What Now? 2 months ago

I can only hope they read it all!
It is literally a life changing decision with consequences that could affect us for the rest of our lives (and theirs) so I hope they respect us enough to do that.
But I'll be happy even if it helps some of YOU here :smile:
Thanks Nicolaou for that link- it's a great discussion and some excellent reasoning.
 +1 / -0

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Our Letter to Our Family
by What Now? 2 months ago 22 Replies latest 2 months ago   jw experiences
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Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 months ago

That is a frickin awesome, beautiful and powerful letter.
I hope it hits home...
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 2 months ago
Fantastic...really....you may have borrowed some of Daniel's words but I can guarantee there will be many occasions when people will borrow your words found here, if not the whole letter, in the future!!!
 
carla
carla 2 months ago

Fantastic letter! As a ubm (our families don't even know any jw's other than mine who joined up later in life) I really loved the paragraph starting with, "Please remember too that you once left the religion of your families and caused them much heartache and grief. Imagine,.......", so true! My jw has missed so many family memories and sadly he will not be in any pictures either.
I hope they read the entire letter! wishing you & yours all the best

 

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Topic Summary
our families have cut off contact with us for the last several months.
they found out that we were celebrating holidays with our non-witness family.
our families were our last tie to the organization, as our former friends stopped associating with us about 3 years ago.



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Has anyone noticed the JW movies are trying to normalise their lifestyle?
by truthseeker 2 hours ago 3 Replies latest 21 minutes ago   jw friends
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truthseeker
truthseeker 2 hours ago

Having watched The Prodigal Son Returns movie produced by the organization and a recent mini-clip of a brother in London who is shown jogging and doing normal everyday things while wanting to "reach out" it occurred to me that the organization is trying to normalize their bizarre lifestyle and beliefs for the benefit of non-witnesses.
What do I mean by normalization? They try to make the Witnesses look like just another Christian denomination who are reasonable while their members live and enjoy normal lives that appear to be within the mainstream.
They do this by not mentioning anything to do with higher education, Armageddon or the urgency of the end of the world nor is their discussion or mention of the blood issue. These are things mentioned often at Kingdom Halls and in study articles.

Watching the Prodigal Son returns, the family appears to live a normal life, going to meetings and studying. There is no mention of the discipline given to Matthew, the son who lived a debauched life. It's as if they are trying to minimize their wacky beliefs by omitting them from the story.
In the other movie clip, they show a young brother going through his normal routine, jogging, working out etc while another brother encourages him to reach out.
I wonder if this is damage control?
Perhaps they are trying to change hearts and minds by trying to make the witnesses seem reasonable, everyday people who study the Bible and talk to others about it?
Truthseeker


 +2 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence an hour ago
In regards to the prodigal son movie, I wish I had a family business to fall back on if I hit rock bottom.
 
 
NotBlind
NotBlind an hour ago

The families in these videos live in very nice upper-middle class homes in nice neighborhoods. Their kitchens have updated appliances, their living rooms have new furniture, and their homes are all in excellent condition.
This is NOT the reality of JW life.
With few exceptions, this lifestyle is impossible unless one or both spouses are working full-time in a highly-skilled trade or profession (read: something that requires postsecondary education).
If an actual JW publisher lived in a home like in these videos, or drove those nice cars, or had a successful business (not cleaning related), we would be labelled "materialistic" or "not putting Kingdom Interests first." I know, because that's what the CO called me.
The reality of JW life in the USA is: living paycheck to paycheck, driving a 10-15 year-old jalopy picked up on Craigslist for $2000, figuring out how to work as many hours without losing disability or welfare benefits, not being able to get a job because you don't have enough education, and being stuck living in somebody's basement because you're too poor to buy or rent a house (again because of no skills).
When will they show THIS reality in their videos?
 +1 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 21 minutes ago
I think you missed the point of the London/jogging clip. He was spending too much time excercising, and was not appointed a MS at first.
 +1 / -0

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