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Again I say!! WE HAVE THE TRUTH!
by smellsgood 9 years ago 40 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Oh yes MutualRespect, I'm a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and a friend of my has written this essay that is irrefutable in its identification of Mormism as THE TRUTH. The true Church!

To quote my friend Michael Griffith All rights reserved on his intellectual property please http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id70.htm
" The LDS Church is a missionary church, as was the Savior's ancient church. It has thousands of missionaries working in virtually every part of the world. It has been said that the Mormon Church is the most missionary-oriented church on the earth."
WHO REALLY IS THE TRUE CHURCH THAT FOLLOW'S GODS WILL? THE ONE AND ONLY RICH AND LONELY LDS
LOOK, SOMEBODY TOOK THE TIME TO WRITE IT DOWN, AND MANY PEOPLE HAVE IDENTIFIED JOSEPH SMITH AS THE MESSENGER OF THE GOSPEL OF THE FIRST CENTURY!! ALL THOSE PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE BOTHERED IF IT WEREN'T TRUE!

"And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24);
"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
* "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants, 1:30).
*Joseph Smith stated: "This [the LDS] Church...is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30).
*President Ezra Taft Benson said: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).
*Bruce McConkie stated: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
*Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).
As a Mormon WE BELIEVE FIRMLY IN THE FOLLOWING:.

ALL OTHER CHURCHES ARE FAAAAAAAAAALSE!

Joseph Smith stated that God told him: "they [other churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19).
YOU WANNA HOOKER? JUST VISIT THE CLERGY! BASTARD WHORES!!!!!
 "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12).
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
CHRISTIANS APOSTASIZED IN THE FIRST CENTURY!!! JUST ADMIT THE TRUTH!!!!
"This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44)
and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly:

# James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266).
 "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
CHRISTENDOM IS BABYLON!!! BABYLON LIVES ON IN EVERY DEACON AND EVERY BISHOP OF EVERY CHURCH IN EVERY COUNTRY....CITY...

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73);
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171);
"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world"
(Journal of Discourses 8:199);

AS MORMONS ONE FIRMLY BELIEVES::

 * Historical facts and opinions which go contrary to official Mormon teachings are by definition false and unworthy of study because they do not promote the your faith in the Church.
 * The final test of truthfulness is if you feel good about an issue ("burning in the bosom", warmth, elation).
 * Joseph Smith has done more for you and all of mankind than anyone, except Jesus Christ.
 * The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and D&C never contradict themselves or the Bible. They are all in perfect agreement. You accept at least one of the various explanations of the Church leaders.
 * The Bible has been altered by evil and inept men and is therefore unreliable (on its own) as the final word on Christian doctrine.
 * Having been to the temple, you are 95% percent of the way to the Celestial Kingdom and Godhood. You just need to endure to the end.
 * The secret temple ceremony is the same as was practiced in ancient Israel (and maybe even in the pyramids of Egypt, according to some Mormon apologetics). The Masons received elements of the ceremonies through an uninterrupted chain of masons, beginning with the masons of the temple of Solomon. God told Joseph Smith how to perform the ceremonies after Joseph saw the Masons do something similar.
 * The Church's doctrinal stance of polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, and the nature of God haven't changed in any significant way over the years since the Church began. For that matter, not a single significant doctrinal issue has changed.
 * It's OK for God to encourage man to commit deceit as he did when telling Abraham (in the Mormons' Book of Abraham) to deceive Pharaoh about his wife Sarah. God can do whatever he wants through his servants, even if it involves deceit. Joseph Smith (and more recent Apostles) has said that what is wrong in one circumstance can sometimes be, and often is, right under another. (Note: A very conservative Mormon may even assert that Abraham did not deceive Pharaoh in any way, and thereby brush aside having to deal with the issue.)
 * Non-Mormons belong to the CHURCH OF THE DEVIL as it states in 2 Nephi, even (especially?) those that profess Christianity.
 * When an Apostle or Prophet says something that is accepted to be true, he is directly inspired by God. When he says something that turns out to be false, he was speaking as a man. But either way, it's no to matter you. These men will never lead you astray.
 And you believe that...
 * The Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet, and, since it comes from the Church, the Church and all its doctrines must be true. OR The Church must be true because it has had a good influence on your family. This helps you accept its official history and doctrines as being the truth.
 * The unique doctrines and ceremonies that you have as a Mormon are mandatory for the Godhood, to which you aspire. Without these things, you'd be kicking yourself for the eternities saying something like, "If only I had fully accepted the doctrine of the LDS Church, then I could have become a God."
 * Hypothetically, if the LDS church weren't true, no other organization could possibly have truth since you already believe that they are all false (interesting logic, eh). If the Mormon church is false, then you are convinced that all churches devoid of truth.
 * Any opposing forces to the Church help prove to you that the Church must be true, especially in light of the Book of Mormon teachings on opposition.
 * Anything written by a former Mormon must be false or, at best, unreliable. Bottom line, you believe that former Mormons have evil intentions.
 * Former Mormons leave the Church because of serious sin. Those who leave the Church in reality know that the Church is true and are liars just like the Book of Mormon anti-Christs.
 * You have so many authorized Church books to read and Church jobs to do that you don't have time or inclination to read any information that may go contrary to the Church.
 * Even if the Mormon church weren't true, it teaches good values to your family and that's good enough.
http://www.exmormon.org/whylft36.htm
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

If MutualRespect were a Mormon, he might say something very similar to this, only with a few edits.

I will be respectful. But in reading past posts it seems we are allowed to speak frankly? I think *the Latter Day Saints* have the truth. Yes I am a *Mormon*. I guess I should state my credentials? That is hard for me. I don't want to sound like I think I have done more than others. But I think that I should say something because of what follows. I will say that I have had every privilege that a brother can have in the *Church*, and I continue in them.
 I did not stumble on here, I came here on purpose. I knew this site existed. Let me say that if I met all of you in person, you would see how I care, not just in preaching to you, but in other ways as well. I do not consider myself better than any of you in any way, so get that out of your mind.
 But as my subject indicates, I think *Latter Day Saints* have the truth. I feel for many of you that have suffered in some way, I too have suffered due to the imperfection of men. But does that stop me from saying this is not the truth? I know many of you despise the expression, "The truth" but at least hear me out.
There is just too much evidence for me to deny that the *Latter Day Saints* have the truth. I have served in other countries. I have witnessed first-hand the hypocrisy of the churches and their members, and I have seen some in the congregations. At the same level? No way. I have seen lives change completely after a person studies the Bible with the *Latter Day Saints*. People who had terrible, unhappy lives change them, and become happy, well-adjusted.
What about *Going on your mission*? What other religion can say its members love humanity enough *but they don't obsessively proseltyze about the Church*? What about conduct? Conduct that is clearly stated in the Bible as wrong is practiced by so many. Even some here do it, then try to twist the scriptures and say they are not doing wrong. I am not judging, but how can the Bible be more clear? And what about organization? You can use another term if you want, but in the First Century there *was the Church that was lost and only restored when Jesus himself manifested the vital life giving message to Joseph Smith*. Why?
 I have studied about the *DNA of Native Americans* and the *how the oppossers and apostates lie about their evidence that they say "refutes" the Book of Mormon*. I go online and read and do all the research I want. Could there be an explanation for it? I did something that I am not sure some of you have done, I considered the motive. Why did they do it? And if it is a mistake, does that negate the tons of evidence that the *Latter Day Saints* are doing God's will?
How many of you believe *that God is a Trinity*? How many *drink caffeine, alcohol, smoke tobacco*? How many of you do things THAT YOU KNOW ARE WRONG? I am not perfect. I know that. I make worse mistakes probably then many of you on this site, or whatever you call it. I have to answer for those mistakes. But does that make God's teachings wrong?
 I have been in eight different countries. I have also also seen in *Salt Lake City Utah* firsthand that the brothers in charge are not getting rich *even though our Church is extremely wealthy*. I know them, I see them, no mockery of them will change what I have observed in them. They are humble men who serve God and who would give their life for you. They live poor and work hard. I have seen them on all-night cheap flights, I have seen them eat that same assembly food that we all ate.
 I know the *Church* is not perfect. But is that what it is supposed to be? Let me give you an example. I was invited awhile ago to visit a prison to preach, and then was informed that an individual that I had reported on as a child molester some years ago had been sentenced to 15 years in that very prison, so I was told better not to go. My point? Yes, I did not protect child molesters. Did some elders do that? If they did, they will answer for it. I do know however of hundreds of elders who protected children, and families that raised happy children. I am one of them. I do feel a lot for you here on this site, and I can relate to what some of you say. Especially "Seeker4" for some reason, he is so sincere but respectful. Is this getting too long? I will continue later.
 
Confession
Confession 9 years ago

Very illuminating, Smellsgood.
 
Gill
Gill 9 years ago

Naturally, any person who is clinging for dear life to any cult/religion will have to believe it is 'The Truth'.
Since there is no such thing as 'absolute truth' we know that this is a self deception that the religious need to perpetrate on their own selves to keep themselves 'content'.
If such a delusion is essential to your well being then by all means cling to it. But you will have to explain all the other Cults that all call themselves 'The Truth'.
To me, THE identifying mark of any cult is that they call themselves 'The Truth'. This is a very grandiose and unprovable claim.
However, everyone is entitled to believe whatever makes them happy!
All Power to your Elbow!!
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Is this the right section of this forum to write about this? I hope so. Maybe I am just boring everyone or driving you crazy. About the terms thing. I know that we use terms that are not found in the Bible, such as *baptism of the dead*. But what are we supposed to use? You guys use that term "crazy underwear robots" with no problem.
Does doing what is right in God's eyes mean we have to use only Bible terms? There is more evidence. *Not only the Pearl of Great Price, the Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants* I have seen with my own eyes that the demons hate the *Mormons*. True, they hate God, but they especially hate the *Mormons, that's why we don't swim in the lakes on our missions. The devil will try and drown us*. In my years of experience, I have seen so many cases of demons complaining about *Joseph Smith and his restoration of the true gospel*. I have seen people who are tortured by demons and have yelled out "lord" and didn't get relief. But they did when they called on *Jesus maybe? No, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young*.
I have sat at deathbeds of people who left the *Mormons* and had them tell me that they knew it was the truth, they just didn't want to live it. As far as all these comments (I read six years of posts in the last month, I read fast)about the *LDS* being a publishing *enterprise, an extremely wealthy Church, and owning Coca Cola*, remember this: Who is getting rich? Which individual? Which person? NAME HIM. There is no one.
I know, I have friends who make those deals for real estate and sales *in the Salt Lake City Area*. Are they rich? In any other organization, SOMEONE IS GETTING RICH. Not here. Those who think so don't know the brothers or sisters *or prophets in one of our mega Churches*. They talk secondhand or thirdhand or fourthhand.
I know the *Church* is not perfect. But God has always had his people. We make mistakes, but overall there is a mountain of evidence that there is a truth and that we have it.
In a few weeks I will probably have that part on the *with my independent Mormon Study Group* that says not to form all these independent study groups.
Have I accomplished anything? Will all of you just write back and tell me to examine this or that, (which I already did) and then say, "Well, let's give him time."
What will happen is that I will realize that spending time on here strengthened my faith.
And what about those "experts" that you all quote? I have read some of their books actually. Very similar stuff, the seven signs of a mind-control cult, etc. But think about it. After all these "experts" on cults finish writing their books and articles that you quote from, they go home. They go home to families.
Do you want to be like them? Do you really feel that their book applies to *Mormons*? This is not about recipes, and movies that we all like. This is about our lives, and whether or not God has his people organized here on earth. I am not frustrated, tired, burned-out, or confused. I work secularly now, to help my family, so I interact with people on a daily basis.
Without giving away what I do, people tell me about their lives, and don't know I am a *Mormon*. Even *Mormons* tell me about their lives and they don't know I am a *Mormon*. The difference is amazing. How knowing *the true God and the TRUE GOSPEL* and trying to do his will makes people so happy.
How many young people do I meet with that with that wish they had guidance instead of sleeping around and not being able to trust someone. Stuck on alcohol, drugs, parties, being taken advantage of. How many young people do I see, whose life is just not happy unless they are serving *the true Church*?
You know, when people are sick, they tell you all about their life and reality. What they really wanted. *The loving Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints* are all about reality, helping people in the most important ways.
So many wait until they are dying until they say, "I wish I had done my life differently."
This site seems to be all people who had a rough time. Look, a lot of it is not your fault, its the system we live in. Some of you yes, seem to want an excuse to disobey clearly stated Bible principles. Hope I dont' offend you by saying that. It is not easy to serve God and to try and follow his guidelines. But it is worth it.
The happiness I see among the *Mormons* is so lacking among others. Perfect? NO. Happy, yes. I know some of you will pick apart my comments one by one. Maybe some of you will feel sorry for me somehow, so that it seems like I haven't "seen the light" like you have.
Some will say, "Give him time." Of course, say what you want.
But we are individuals, and although we may write some bluster on here, when it's just us and God, then what? Then what? What do you REALLY believe?
Is there a God named Jehovah who wants us to worship him? *Er...Does he have a Son named Jesus, and a Modern Day Prophet whom he makes known his WIll through*?
Is there strong evidence that he has his people here on earth that although not perfect, are doing his will? *Please visit your nearest LDS temple and request a study* I say YES. I love you all.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Come come now. You must expand your horizons my dear. Joseph Smith had visions and their were 7 witnesses that saw these tablets of gold that he unearthed somewhere in New york where folks make these pilgramges. Well thats just great. We are living in an age of science, the information age. So you just blindly beleive that this is true, because these jokers signed their names to it. I have never read so foreign or weird a manuscript of collosal and borrowed fabrication as the book of Mormon. I don't even know how it relates to anything but whoever wrote it was quite a genious. We come from religions that are known as high control groups my dear. There are in fact many things we have in common. The problem with refuting your religion is that it is so far out that I don't even know what to compare it to. I know that in the begining of it that polygamy was acceptable. I know that Warren Jeffs who comes from a branched off sect of it, is a God dam phychopath who is about to spend the rest of his life in prison. I am impressed with how your people took a dessert and made it flourish. It certainly seems remarkable but you know very well there are peices missing as in every religion that are a mystery. Like for instance that dude who tried to forge documents that didn't exist. He was quite remarkable actually and had great talent as Joseph smith did but he was a friggin phychopath that bombed people who tried to expose him. I have a freind here in Ottawa who is a Mormon, and he is a beautiful man. He has been living on the streets and in holes in the ground for the last 20 years. He is a sweet soul but, he is a mess as I have been for many years. I don't even know if he is alive anymore. Why does his church not help him or his family? He lives like a vagabond. I know this scene and I have taken him in as I have been a victim of dejection myself. I also know of all the lost boys of Warren Jeffs cult. Your church and the witnesses focus on money and power and don't give a god dam about the small guy. Wake Up!
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

dang it I can't post another topic, well, we'll just switch caps a bit here mid thread.
I am a devout follower of William Branham!
HE IS THE TRUE PROPHET! A MODERN DAY JOHN THE BAPTIST OR ELIJAH!
HE RESTORED THE TRUTHS OF THE CHURCH THAT GOD HAD "SEALED" FOR 2 MILLENIUM!
HE GOT RID OF LOATHESOME FALSE DOCTRINES OF CHRISTENDOM!
HE IS THE ONE WHO HAS TRULY ACTED AS "THE MOUTHPIECE OF GOD!" So MUCH FOR THE WT FALSE CLAIMS TO BE SUCH!

“It is all over. (speaking for Jesus) I am going to speak all right. Yes, I am 'here in the midst of the Church. The Amen of God, faithful and true will reveal Himself and it will BE BY MY PROPHET.” Oh yes, that is so. Rev. 10:7 “And in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.” .... He is sending a vindicated prophet. He is sending a prophet after almost two thousand years. He is sending someone who is so far from organization, education, and the world of religion that as John the Baptist and Elijah of old, He will hear only from God and he will have “thus saith the Lord” and speak for God. He will be God's mouthpiece and HE, AS IT IS DECLARED IN MAL. 4:6, WILL TURN THE HEARTS OF THE CHILDREN BACK TO THE FATHERS.” ( W. Branham, THE MESSAGE TO THE LAODICEAN AGE p.28).
“But in the last days, it will have to be a prophet to take up the mysteries of God, . . . ? . . . because the mysteries would only be known by prophets. So it has to be this fellow coming. Do you see what I mean now? He can’t be a reformer; it has got to be a prophet, because it has got to be somebody that is gifted ; and set there that catches the word. ”(The Revelation of the Seven Seals p.145). “ the original Bible faith is to be restored by the 7th angel oh, how I love this! All of the mysteries of the Seals that the reformers never understood fully.”( ibid p.147)

HES NEVER HAD TO TAKE BACK ANY OF HIS PROPHECIES EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T COME INTO FRUITION, BUT NOTHING LIKE HOW THE WT DIDN'T COME INTO FRUITION BECAUSE AS HE SAID
“I never preached anything in my life under inspiration I had to take back, ‘cause I don’t depend on my own understanding.” (Oneness, 2/11/62, V-10, N-2, sermon page 16-87)




What did William Branham “really” teach and believe!
“Were identified with him in Acts 2. We're identified with them, with the same baptism, same thing. All he was then, and all he is, all he was, and all he is, we are. That's exactly.”
“Same thing by being a true Christian. You have to be identified with it. I preached with Moses and war-with Noah and warned the people of the oncoming judgment, to be a real Christian. I was with Moses at the burning bush; I saw the Pillar of Fire; I saw His glory. I was with Moses up there in the wilderness. To be a Christian, I have to be identified with everything God was, to be a Christian. I seen His glory; I heard His voice. Don't try to explain it away from me now, 'cause I was there. I know what I'm talking about. I seen what happened. Yes, sir!”
“I was at the Red Sea when I seen the Spirit of God move down and part the water from one side, … through about a ninety foot sea. I seen the Spirit of God. I walked with Moses through that dry ground, across that Red Sea. I stood by Mount Sinai and seen the thunder and lightning falling. I eat manna with them out there. I drank from that Rock; I'm still doing it tonight. I was identified with the manna-eaters. I was identified with them that drunk from the rock.”
“I was with John the Baptist and before them critics. I seen the Spirit of God descending; I heard the voice of God say, “This is My beloved Son in Whom I'm pleased to dwell in.” Yes, sir! I sure was Identified with him. That's exactly right.”
“I was with the 120 in the Upper Room. I was identified up there with them. Oh, 1-1 feel religious. Amen! I was identified there. I'm one of them. I was identified; I got the same experience they had. I was there when it happened, to be a true Christian.” (THE MIGHTY GOD UNVEILED BEFORE US p.27).
This is how far gone he was in his own revelations. He thought he was there throughout history, is this rational, is this Biblical, is this believable? Nowhere does the Bible teach this! Col.2:18 “Let no one cheat you out of your reward, taking delight in FALSE humility, and the worship, intruding in those things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his carnal mind.”
Branham said the Church is built on “The Rock of Revelation” (Seven Church Ages, p. 13). Jesus taught that he was the sure foundation, there is no other Mt. 7:24 Paul said “The Rock is Christ” who was in the wilderness (I Cor.10:4). Peter says the foundation , Rock is Christ (1 Pt.2:5-8) Revelation is never what we build on Paul says there is no other foundation but Christ.
That Branham was Elijah the Prophet
“It is all over. (speaking for Jesus) I am going to speak all right. Yes, I am 'here in the midst of the Church. The Amen of God, faithful and true will reveal Himself and it will BE BY MY PROPHET.” Oh yes, that is so. Rev. 10:7 “And in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.” .... He is sending a vindicated prophet. He is sending a prophet after almost two thousand years. He is sending someone who is so far from organization, education, and the world of religion that as John the Baptist and Elijah of old, He will hear only from God and he will have “thus saith the Lord” and speak for God. He will be God's mouthpiece and HE, AS IT IS DECLARED IN MAL. 4:6, WILL TURN THE HEARTS OF THE CHILDREN BACK TO THE FATHERS.” ( W. Branham, THE MESSAGE TO THE LAODICEAN AGE p.28).
“When that Angel, that you see in that picture over there, come down on the river down there that day, thirty years ago come this coming June or thirty-three years ago, rather, this June, and said, “As John the Baptist was sent forth, (before 5,000 people or more) the hour has come when your Message will stray the world” (The Revelation of the Seven Seals p.51)
The Angel was His guide
“If you haven't made preparation yet to meet the Lamb in the air, and by the power invested me by my commission given by Almighty God and ministered to me by an Angel, a Pillar of Light” (The Revelation of the Seven Seals p.112-113 )
“ Now last evening as we always like in teaching on the Seals, we teach it the same way you do on the church ages. When we got finished with teaching the church age, the last time when I drawed them out here on the pulpit on the board--how many remembers what took place? He came right down. went right back on the wall and light and drawed it off Himself, right there on the wall before us all. The Angel of The Lord stood right here before several hundred people. And now He's doing something real supernatural now, too. So we're just expecting great things.” (The Revelation of the Seven Seals p.180)
“But in the last days, it will have to be a prophet to take up the mysteries of God, . . . ? . . . because the mysteries would only be known by prophets. So it has to be this fellow coming. Do you see what I mean now? He can’t be a reformer; it has got to be a prophet, because it has got to be somebody that is gifted ; and set there that catches the word. ”(The Revelation of the Seven Seals p.145). “ the original Bible faith is to be restored by the 7th angel oh, how I love this! All of the mysteries of the Seals that the reformers never understood fully.”( ibid p.147)
False prophecies
“I never preached anything in my life under inspiration I had to take back, ‘cause I don’t depend on my own understanding.” (Oneness, 2/11/62, V-10, N-2, sermon page 16-87)
“ See, immediately after the coming of THIS Elijah, the earth will be cleansed by hate and the wicked burned to ashes. Of course, this did NOT happen at the time of John (the Elijah for his day.)… .” (THE MESSAGE TO THE LAODICEAN AGE p.13).
PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE NEXT TWO QUOTES, THEY ARE JUST THE TRUE PROPHECIES OF A PROPHET LIKE ELIJAH, THE SEVENTH SEAL, THE MOUTHPIECE OF GOD, THAT EVERYONE CAN AGREE WERE PERFECTLY FULFILLED.
“That this age will, end around 1977. …, I base this prediction on seven major continuous visions that came to me one Sunday morning in June, 1933. The Lord Jesus spoke to me and said that the coming of the Lord was drawing nigh, but that before He came, seven major events would transpire. ( W. Branham, THE MESSAGE TO THE LAODICEAN AGE, p.29).
I still maintain this prediction after thirty years because, Jesus DID NOT say no man could know the year, month, week or day in which His coming was to be completed. So I repeat, I sincerely believe and maintain as a private student of the Word, along with divine inspiration that 1977 ought to terminate the-World systems and usher in the millenium.” (Seven Church Ages Page 322)

OOPS! I TRIED TO ERASE THAT! NEVERMIND!
HE IS THE SEVENTH SEAL OPENER! I DON'T THINK THE WATCHTOWER EVEN OPENED THE FIFTH ONE LET ALONE THE SEVENTH!
“We find out that during that time I saw seven Angels in a form of a pyramid that swept down and picked me up. And I was brought east to open the Seven Seals for God.” (Commission By Seven Mighty Angels 1963 "Standing in the Gap" Jefferson, IN V-6N7 Sunday 63-0623m "80").
HE CERTAINLY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THAT NASTY PERNICIOUS TRINITY DOCTRINE! OH NO, WE WHO FOLLOW BRANHAM ARE MODALISTS. GOD IS ONE! NOT THREE! THREE IS NOT ONE, AND BRANHAM IS THE MOUTHPIECE OF THE SEVENTH SEAL OF ELIJAH.
“Why don't you examine your baptism of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that false 'trinity' it's so-called...” (William Braham, “Revelation Chapter 4, #3 (Throne of Mercy and Judgment).
“The Way of a True Prophet,” Branham stated this view as follows: “Why don’t you examine your baptism of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that false `trinity’ it’s so-called, which is nothing in the world but three offices of one God, titles. No, name of Father, there’s no such a thing as name, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost-Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which is the Lord Jesus Christ.” (In the Days of the Voice of the 7th Angel, p. 41).
Branham explained, “...not one place in the Bible is trinity ever mentioned...It's Catholic error and you Protestants bow to it” (Conduct, Order, Doctrine, Q and A, p. 182).
“Look down on your Bible and see if that says `in the names of...' Does it? No, sir... It said, `in the NAME...'“ Branham continues further to explain the distinction, “You see, you misunderstand it then. It's one God in three dispensations.... And when He said, `Go baptize them in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit,' it was Jesus Christ. And that's why we baptize in Jesus' Name.” (Conduct, Order, Doctrine, pp. 181, 184).
Branham's book “Conduct, Order, Doctrine of the Church,” (1189 pages) the “First thing is to straighten out you on your 'trinity' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” God is like a three-foot rule... The first twelve inches was God, the Father; the second twelve inches, God, the Son, the same God; the third twelve inches was God, the Holy Ghost, the same God,” (pp.182 and 184)
HE IDENTIFIED THE TRINITY FOR WHAT IT REALLY IS!! A TRASHY PAGAN SUPERSTITION!
“How can three persons be in one God? Not only is there no Bible for it but it shows even a lack of intelligent reasoning. Three distinct persons, though identical substance, make three gods, or language has lost its meaning entirely. God--- He has three offices or - --a threefold manifestation --- of the One Person, Jesus.” This trinity (an absolutely unscriptural word) was based -upon many gods of Rome. The polytheistic religion of the enemy began with the Trinitarian doctrine - - - Our modern theologians - -- duped by Satan still believe in three persons in the Godhead.” (W. M. Branham, An Exposition of the Seven Churches, pgs. 18-21,184).

BRANHAM RECOGNIZED THE GREAT PYRAMID OF EGYPT AS A WORK BUILT FOR GOD! WELL, HAS ANYONE ELSE SAID THAT???? WELL HAVE THEY????
"The idea that the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt was constructed by Enoch as a memorial to God ( All Things Are Possible, p. 162).
HE EVEN HAS A MINI PYRAMID FOR A TOMB TO COMMEMORATE THIS! WELL, DOES ANY OTHER PROPHET FROM THE LAST CENTURY HAVE SUCH HARD EVIDENCE THAT THEY WERE USED BY GOD??? WELL HAVE THEY??
"Branham said the ZODIAC AND THE EGYPTIAN PYRAMIDS were equal to the Scriptures in the revelation of God's word. he has a pyramid shaped tombstone in Indiana. (William M. Branham, Adoption (Jeffersonville, IN: Spoken Word Publications), pp. 31,104)"
WILLIAM BRANHAM TAUGHT THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL, ITS CERTAINLY NOT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT! IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!! WELL, HE'S IRONED OUT ALL THE WRINKLES SO STARCHED INTO THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE ALL BY HIMSELF HASN'T HE!
THE CHRISTADELPHIANS STOLE HIS IDEAS!
"Satan - - awaits his 'time of eternal annihilation - We believe that he will absolutely be done completely away and annihilated. ---Is the lake of fire hell Eternal? No, sir. No, sir Anything that was created is not Eternal --- If anybody ever tells you that you're going to burn in an Eternal hell, I want the scripture for it -- it was created for that to destroy.”
Everlasting; does not compare with what is eternal or that which had no beginning or end everlasting means “to the vanishing point.” Destruction-- in II Thess.1:9 -Positively mean annihilation - - to destroy to the ending point. His body he uses as the antichrist gets destroyed but not his spirit as the book of Rev. 20 tells us he is incarcerated alive for the 1,000 year period in the bottomless pit.
Now don't let anyone say that I don't believe in a lake of fire and in punishment. I do. I don't know how long it will last, but it will eventually be removed. In Rev.21:8, it says that at those sinners mentioned will have their part in the lake of fire. But the true interpretation of the word is not 'part' but it is 'time'.” (W. M. Branham, The Revelation of the Seven Seals, pp. 28, 48; W. M. Branham, An Exposition of the Seven Church Ages, pp. 134-135).
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Hey you know what sis,brainwashed! Did you even read a friggin word I just said. I will not waste one more second on you!
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

"Come come now. You must expand your horizons my dear. Joseph Smith had visions and their were 7 witnesses that saw these tablets of gold that he unearthed somewhere in New york where folks make these pilgramges."

Mormonism is ridiculous Tyrone. I'm doing a series of reactionary posts to MutualRespects "We have the truth."
My other thread dealt with WWCOG, and Herbert Armstrong, and when I can post a new topic tomorrow, I think I might be a devout Moonie. I'm hoping it might be a bit of a mirror :smile:
YOU MUST ACCEPT THE TRUE PARENTS!
If you wanna know how I really feel about Mormonism, check it out
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/134776/2400270/post.ashx#2400270
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

"To me, THE identifying mark of any cult is that they call themselves 'The Truth'. This is a very grandiose and unprovable claim."
If they are trying to be "Christian" again they fail admirably by doing this. As if the WT didn't put Jesus in a corner of a small closet as it is, but they usurp him even in this. The Christian would tell you that the "truth" isn't a WHAT but a WHO? He said HE was "the truth" and they once again bump him out the way so they can sit their jollies down in his "place" and pay lip service to his "accomplishments" and "example."
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Ho ho! a brainiac! How refreshing. What a releif. Go for it! I hope other folks see the ironies. I didn't see it all. You came across as a fully fledged mormon. Be interesting to know what you really think the score is.
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Hey you know what sis,brainwashed! Did you even read a friggin word I just said. I will not waste one more second on you!"
Ohhhh, you're just so hostile because you have the clap being a worldly debauched person, but mostly you're just super angry because deep down inside you know it's all true! So true that it's called "THE TRUTH" Ok?? It's ok, I solace myself in the fact that I have all my salvation rituals to get me to the third heaven, and you'll be annihilated. I'm sorry you're so insecure about your eternal future!
:wink: :wink: :wink:
*waits patiently*
are you playing w/ me now?
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Ho ho! a brainiac! How refreshing. What a releif. Go for it! I hope other folks see the ironies. I didn't see it all. You came across as a fully fledged mormon.

*bows* why thank you I take it as a compliment!

I HEART DUBS!
bonus points if you know which movie this is from
"What's the score here....what's next?"
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

I don't know sis. I can't beleive your only 23. You could bring me up a notch or two if my tired brain could handle it. You can't even wait 5 minutes for my lame responses. Why don't you join Mensa baby. I'm sure you'd help a lot of folks.
 
Stealth453
Stealth453 9 years ago

My eyes are bleeding.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Is she too smart for you too stealth?
 
Stealth453
Stealth453 9 years ago

Not by a long shot...I just can't stand ranting religionists. Had my share back in the day.
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

You got me smiling. I think you're greatly overestimating my intellectual capacity. Besides I'm way to fine to join that nerd herd! :smile:
I feel as though I reached my peak at eighteen or nineteen when I was battling it out with some 50 year old JWs online. I smoked them, but they never got a clue. It's funny to me you should say that because I've felt as if I were in my senile stage in my early twenties, slowwwly mentally declining. It's just a matter of time before I drive into a building because I was daydreaming about Kirk Douglas.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

It's ok smells good. Who's playin games now. Don't respond. I don't give a flat f--k. I respect your intelligence but despise arrogance and I ain't no f--kwit either. I'll cut you some slack cuz of your age.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Shit here I go puttin my Effin foot in my mouth. Why did you take so long to respond? It comes across as rejection from your type of intellect. Sorry, I can be one mean son of F---k
 

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Again I say!! WE HAVE THE TRUTH!
by smellsgood 9 years ago 40 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

"Not by a long shot...I just can't stand ranting religionists. Had my share back in the day."

here we go again.
Well, Stealth, I believe the fact that your eyes are bleeding has nothing to do with my hard-hitting, no nonsense, double fact checked, lie killing post. No, actually, it's a punishment from the Almighty for your lack of faith and amoral lifestyle, God sees what sort of clubs you frequent! He sees how you buy yourself beer when your kitten needs food! The reason your eyes are bleeding my good sir is only because you have come under judgment! Oh yes, you are being struck blind from ABOVE!! From the Second story of the THIRD HEAVEN! As it should be, because you ARE so blind! Blind to true things, blind to truer things, blind to the truth you can't accept because you prefer gambling to reason! Prefer laciviousness to logic! Prefer drunkeness to serving the three or four or five true Gods! REPENT! REPENT YOU SWINE!!
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Tyrone ((hugs)) what you talking bout honey? Sorry, I always kid that I'm the finest girl around. It's just what me and my friends do...
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

You're one hell of a character lady! Havn't seen that kinda boldness if not but only in myself!
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Oh, my, I should have put a disclaimer that this was an ironic post. ~~
I hope when people settle down from the shock of what seems to be a gung ho Mormon throwing down the preaching gauntlet they go back and read it.
It's good material to have on hand to witness to Witnesses!
BTW, Stealth, j/k
Yesterday I was a WWCOG member, tomorrow I shall be a Moonie!
I guess I just can't commit!
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Ahhh, thanks Tyrone, shucks you're sweet!
Now, it's off to bed for smellsgood, being the wee 3 A:M in da mornin.
Nighty nite!
smellsgood
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Man are you ever a headf--k. Thats great, with a little polishin you'd make a great anythin. You have your whole life ahead of you but I don't reckon anyone needs to tell you that. For some strange reason I don't envy you. That might be because I like you. You wouldn't like it if I didn't. I have have diatribes and bitchins the likes of which you could never imagine.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 9 years ago

Nighty night, and may flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
 
freeme
freeme 9 years ago

seriously... i enjoyed reading this :smile:
smellsgood seems to be someone special.
but sg... you know that in all your posts in all that huge amount of text wasnt any real evidence? i made a summary of your posts: "my religion is the truth because its truth" uhmm... okay you can add "and others say so too!!". for me as coming from JW background i felt the very same as you do about my religion. in the case of mormons for me it seems to be so clear. since mr. smith added something to the bible in some way it cant be the truth. jesus himself warned his followers of ppl like mr. smith. why keep discussing further on? if you take the bible as gods word the mormons cant have the truth. plain simple.
but thats ONLY my view of things. you can have another, smellsgood. and you probably will change your opinion in your life a lot on those topics. you seem to be an intelligent person. keep that up! you'll go your way.
your avatar pic is great :smile: i love gwen, yay!
have a nice day smellsgood.
edit: lol :grinning: shes awesome :smile: hahahaha i did read that last post too late :grinning:
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Smellsgood, after reading your essay on mormonism I no longer have any doubts about them being a cult, The way you described mormonism and the words use chose along with their line of reasoning, it sounds like a cult to me. I dont think it is quite as destructive to the family and the children like the WT Society, but it still appears to be cult like anyway.
 
Honesty
Honesty 9 years ago

LDS have definitely attained cult status surpassed only by the Watchtower Society/Jehovah's Witnesses.
BTW, ask any LDS member to prove their doctrines using only the Book of Mormon and they run almaost as fast as the JW who hears the word "APOSTATE".
 
timmycat
timmycat 9 years ago

Why would anyone be attracted to anything you say, it's the way you come across that anything appearing to be half intelligent would be lost in youre delivery.
 
magoo
magoo 9 years ago

..............uhhh..............ok.......i think..........what the hell was that?

magoo


 
Undecided
Undecided 9 years ago

The more I hear and examine religion the more I respect Rutherfords statement,"Religion is a snare and a racket." He seems to have made just one correct one though.
Ken P.
 
crankytoe
crankytoe 9 years ago

LOL, I love it!
 
nvrgnbk
nvrgnbk 9 years ago

She's kidding guys.
You really had 'em goin' girl! LOL!
 
magoo
magoo 9 years ago

........"could i just smell it ?"...........

magoo


 
reneeisorym
reneeisorym 9 years ago

I enjoyed reading that. Thank you.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

I'm impressed that smellsgood's level of education and research is on a par with that expected by one schooled on 'wakes and 'towers.
Tyrone you as well honey.
I suggest everyone get's a good nights sleep.
 
Satanus
Satanus 9 years ago

The mormons have the right religion. I saw that on southpark, So, don't mess w qcmbr, or you'll go to hell to play w satan and saddam.
S, who has graduated from the tower college, to southpark uni
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Tyrone, bitchins 'n diatribes?? :smile: I'm glad that I'm on your good side in that case. I'd love to see that in action, does the inaccessability of Krispy Kreme donuts get you furious? I mean, shouldn't we all be able to enjoy time with our family, and then when they've left, be able to pick up a dozen Kreme filled donuts for ourselves with minimal interference?




I personally do discriminate between a Cult, and say, a Baptist or Methodist Church. I don't think they are in the same realm at all.
but you know, as far as correct information in the Rutherford era, I don't think anyone can deny this jewel.
"Milk is the greatest curative food known." {GA Dec 8 1920 146}
Cancer? Drink some milk Syphillis? Only milk. Small Pox, you'd have to be a class M moron, as the Golden age was good enough to investigate the dangers of vaccination. You'll just get the Pox anyways, and likely go mad and proceed to terrorize communities on a weakened virus fuelled killing spree.
"Vaccination never prevented anything and never will, and is the most barbarous practice .. Use your rights as American citizens [i.e. participate politically!!] to forever abolish the devilish practice of vaccination." {GA Oct 12 1921 17}
Fight the needle people! Devilish, barbarous, gibberish!

CrankyToe- thanks, and thanks for "getting it" :wink:
nvrgnbk: You really had 'em goin' girl! LOL!
Hello darlin! I think I really disappointed that one guy. I'll have to work on my delivery so I can make my strong Mormon convictions more appealing :smile:




De nada. I hope you get a good result with the pie recipe! I can't believe that many people love that dessert!




If you mean to say that I am WELL studied and informed, you are right. If you mean to say that I am ignorant on some level, you are wrong.
Dear Qcmbr. It can't be fun to have your beliefs bashed about. But really, you should have thought about that before you became a Mormon. *titters*
 

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the true church!
* "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (doctrine and covenants, 1:30).
or the church must be true because it has had a good influence on your family.



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Again I say!! WE HAVE THE TRUTH!
by smellsgood 9 years ago 40 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

freeme, why thank you darling. What you posted was really sweet and I wish I were that gentle on the Mormons sometimes.
P.P.S It's so cool a guy loves Gwen, usually I get stick about it from guys. I love her too! She's so gorgeous.
 

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Topic Summary
the true church!
* "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (doctrine and covenants, 1:30).
or the church must be true because it has had a good influence on your family.



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Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
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by Freeandclear 2 months ago
John Aquila
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by John Aquila 2 months ago
Saved_JW
Watchtower Paralells Mormonism
by Saved_JW 4 months ago
The Hermit
The Hermit's story PART 3
by The Hermit 2 months ago



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My Bible Study
by Scorpion 16 years ago 8 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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Scorpion
Scorpion 16 years ago


I have two Bible studies at present. One of these is an XMormon. He has been out of the LDS for over a year now. I have been studying with him for four months now. He refused to study out of any of the WT pubications. He said he would study only on the conditions that we use the Bible alone without any aids. To tell you the truth, it has been the best Bible study I have had in my 7 years as a Witness. I usually develope a topic and we study about it. Many times he wants to talk about things he has had problems understanding. These studies take up to two hours at times. I have noticed that when I do take another from my congregation to these studies, they always have a great time.
Tonight we talked a bit about what the Mormon church taught. I was surprised to learn that the LDS church looked at his tax returns each year so as to make sure he was paying the 10% tithe the church requires. We were on the subject of Michael the Archangel and he said that Brigham Young the second prophet of the LDS church taught that Adam was God. Young taught that Adam was Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days. He said this could be found in Journal of Discourses, volume 1, pp 50-51. JD is a 26 volume set
 
Scorpion
Scorpion 16 years ago


OOPPPS! Don't know how I did that.
Any way, JD is 26 volumes of books that have collections of talks by early LDS church leaders and what they taught and talked about at conventions and so forth. My study said that this doctrine was reversed by a recent president Spencer Kimball and labeled the Adam-God doctrine as false teaching.
The more I talk with him, the more I can see that the Mormon church (LDS) is a study of continuing, conflicting, contradicting revelation.
I got a good laugh when he was explaaining how Brigham Young taught that six foot moon dwellers dressed like quakers resided on the moon and the sun. He said Joseph Smith (founder and first prophet) started this nonesense. THis was also in JD Volume 13. I can't believe anyone would fall for such nonsense.
 
waiting
waiting 16 years ago


I've run into Mormons in service - and I'd cringe everytime. They could talk circles around me and they and I knew it.
I've never understood their religion - at all. However, in several books on cults, Mormons are listed right in there with Jehovah's Witnesses. Hope your study goes well.
There really is a great feeling studying the Bible, and actually discussing it. Makes you work hard, doesn't it. I hope so, because I had one like that - and prepared harder for that study than any meeting. The study did not come into the organization - but I really enjoyed my time with that woman - she made me think.
 
Seven
Seven 16 years ago

SC and waiting, I can't for the life of me get a handle on what the Mormons actually believe. Two very handsome young Mormons stopped by one afternoon[I thought this must be my lucky day]and left me a copy of their Book of Mormon. With all the talk of metal plates in a stone box, Moroni, stones in silver bows-I don't thinks so.
I have been doing some research on the history of the English Bible and found a very helpful site:www.bibles.net if any of you are interested. It contains every available translation except for ours of course.
 
RedhorseWoman
RedhorseWoman 16 years ago


My nephew had joined the Mormon church for awhile. He had been brought up as a JW, then switched to Baptist, then Mormonism, then back to JW, then Baptist, a little Episcopalian....and he has settled on Druidism.
The Mormon experience was pretty bizaare, though.
 
Scorpion
Scorpion 16 years ago


RHW,
I bet your nephew has a personality disorder with all the religions he has been in.
SevenofNine,
I had that link you posted already bookmarked. Thanks though.
waiting,
I agree with you that getting one to think including ourselves is what God intends for us.
BTW, if any of you are interested, I can post more about what the Mormons believe. It might help you by showing the contradictions in the LDS faith so you will have something to ask the Mormons the next time they call on you. You will also get a good laugh.
 
Frenchy
Frenchy 16 years ago


I had a run in with Mormons several years ago. We had a group discussion. Me on one side and four of them on the other. I can tell you right off you have nothing to fear from their 'knowledge' of the Bible. Two of those guys were 'elders' and addressed themselves as so. It was my experience there that they knew precious little of the Bible but I got the impression that they knew a whole lot about theirdoctrine and that they had a lotof literature to read.
Our agreement to the discussion had been to stay strictly with the Bible and I had a lot of fun. I'm not saying they're alllike that, but those four knew very little.
 
waiting
waiting 16 years ago


Gee, Frenchy,
Isn't that like a whole lot of JW's? Don't know how to go into the Bible in depth - but know a whole lot about our religious materials?
In fact, a lot of religious people?
 
Jethro
Jethro 3 years ago

If JWs, Mormans, Catholics, or SDAs want to really find and know the truth about God, Jesus, heaven and hell all they have to do is read the Bible (particularly the NT) with an unbiased, teachable and humble heart.
 

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What would you say to a Mormon dealing with this?
by John Corrill 13 years ago 3 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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John Corrill
John Corrill 13 years ago

I’ve been reading up on the Latter-day Saint (Mormon) doctrine of polygamy. Information on the church website (http://www.lds.org) says: "In this dispensation, the Lord commanded some of the early Saints to practice plural marriage. The Prophet Joseph Smith and those closest to him, including Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, were challenged by this command, but they obeyed it." Most LDS believe this practice was commanded by God and they defend it. Others are uncomfortable with this doctrine, and have voiced concern, particularly regarding Joseph Smith (church founder) marrying 14 year old girls and women who were already married (http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm). I’ve hung out at some LDS forums, not unlike this one, to try and get a feel for the thoughts of the faithful and the concerned. Those who can’t accept this practice as being from God, may be shunned, barred from Mormon temples and have received the following typical responses from family, friends and leadership: “Neither you or I can exactly question why God has commanded this through his modern prophets.” “I just don’t feel qualified to question that myself...maybe you do” “We need to beware of the reasoning of the world, and follow our leaders” “Don’t let Satan take you down” “Set aside your concerns. There is much that we don’t know about this” “God has given us all the tools and resources we need for salvation, such as prayer, the Holy Spirit, the scriptures, and a living prophet" “Why are you feeling all this doubt? Doubt is the grey twilight of distrust, hesitation and indecisiveness.” “That’s putting a lot of trust in little old you” “You think about things way too much” “You know deep down what is true and right” “You are only indulging your own self pride and ego” “God has always required hard things from the his chosen people” “You are choosing not to seek the full light of truth for reasons that seem to be self-supporting-self-imposed illusions, or personal, unresolved emotional issues” “Sometimes it’s hard to accept the truth when it means we must be humble and make some changes in intellectual thinking that we’ve become satisfied with.” Suppose a friend of yours, who is a LDS member, has heard this from LDS friends, family and church leaders. Confused and looking for a neutral source outside their faith, they seek your advice (an active JW member). What would you say? What are your thoughts on the responses from their fellow LDS?
 
Silverleaf
Silverleaf 13 years ago


Hi John,
I'm not and never have been a JW so I don't know if I really qualify to answer, but the question was interesting. If I had a friend who was LDS and wanted advice I would likely say, if you don't want to be kicked out of the church, tell everyone you believe in the doctrines wholeheartedly and then do what you think is right. They can't force you to have more than one wife, since that practice is illegal. Of course I'd add, if you have to lie to stay in the good graces of your religious faith, what good is your religion, really?
My personal opinion on the subject is that the polygamy beliefs are horse crap and yet more indication that the Mormons are no where near the 'true' religion.
Silverleaf
 
refiners fire
refiners fire 13 years ago


Hmmm. Well Polygamy was banned from the official Mormon Church in 1890 by the Prophet Willford Woodruff. If one reads the "Official declaration 1" which is the revelation given to the church banning polygamy (Located at the back of "Doctrine and Covenants") you will see that the Revelation abandoning polygamy was recieved after years and years of intense pressure and persecution from the United States Government upon the church for practising plurality of marriage. Woodruffs revelation conveys that it is literally a choice between the church being hounded out of existance and practising polygamy.
Yet another example of a "Divine Revelations" being altered by the course of reality.
 
pascaljon
pascaljon 13 years ago

Hi John
Is this a purely hypothetical question?
As a Mormon whos been through periods of variable activity, I feel somewhat able to comment here, and especially with having been a JW previously I can comment on the difference between my experiences as a JW and Mormon.
With regard to the practice of polygamy, I never had a problem with it as such. Niether do I worry about Joseph Smith marrying girls who were only 14, or was it 15? Anyway, didn't Josiah (one of the few good Israelite kings)have two children by the time he was fifteen? Certain rights and wrongs aren't really absolute. I expect somebody will disagree with that.
Anyway, the aspect that I had difficulty with was the apparent duplicity. I've always found though that other Mormons were very relaxed on the whole about my personal doubts and more especially that could be said of church leaders. It generally goes down ok to raise quite controversial questions in discussions at church and I've said some quite challenging things on occasion. On one occasion I used a talk to share some of my doubts which possibly upset some people, but there was no equivalent of a judicial Committee or even the hint of such a thing. Nobody ever said anything to me that could be taken other than as intended in a spirit of concern. As for shunning, I have never heard of or seen such a thing. I think I would have to be very obnoxious to keep mormon friends away.
With regard to being barred from the temple, it is true that the temple is only open to those who are faithful members, but I have no idea why anybody would want to go there if they weren't, so I never viewed that as a problem. A very few members do get excommunicated, but that does not result in JW style shunning. They are simply no longer members of the church and are not supposed to take sacrament, but people wouldn't necessarily even know if I was excommunicated if I didn't choose to tell them.
In contrast, having been a JW with doubts, I felt like I was very much threatened to keep my mouth shut, and when I finally DA'd myself I very much regretted never having the opportunity to talk to friends about why I was leaving.
So, in my opinion, there is very little in common for Mormons and JWs who doubt their religion. The best approach for a Mormon with such questions is to seek out those well informed about the issues that generally cause concern. I'd be happy to help and whether they decided to stay with the church or move on would be entirely up to them.
 

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Article by Morman Organization about JW'S
by whereami 8 years ago 17 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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whereami
whereami 8 years ago

Email going around in the JW world.

This really does make us appreciate it...especially when you see it from an outsider's point of view.
Very interesting article authored by the LDS (Mormons) - helps you to really appreciate what we have.
The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
Best Missionary Literature Printing and Distribution Program
Jehovah's Witnesses
The Jehovah's Witnesses distribute over 5,000 tons (10 million pounds) of religious literature in Russia alone each year! In contrast, the average LDS missionary worldwide distributes only one copy of the Book of Mormon every five days. Even the best and most spiritually prepared individuals can't accept a message unless they have an opportunity to hear it! In light of these facts, it can hardly come as a surprise that there are over 120,000 active Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and similar numbers in Ukraine and Poland, compared to only about 4,000 active Latter-day Saints (out of 12,000 'on the rolls') in Russia, 2,500 active (out of 8,000 'on the rolls') in Ukraine, and 250 active out of 1100 'on the rolls' in Poland. Nor can it come as a surprise that there are over 13,000 active Witnesses in Kazakhstan and over 10,000 in Georgia, compared to only a handful of LDS members in both countries.
 A comparison of statistics in many other Eastern European and Asian nations is similar (Slovakia-- 12,000 JWs to about 40 active LDS, Romania -- 30,000 JWs to under 500active LDS, et cetera.) Why are the Witnesses growing so rapidly in these countries with very few foreign missionaries, while Latter-day Saints are experiencing very slow growth in spite of a large contingent of full-time foreign missionaries? It isn't that JW commitments are easier - meeting schedules are comparable and JW members actually have to be attending church for much longer before they can be baptized. The answer lies in the Jehovah's Witnesses strategic planning and literature distribution to reach every soul and sound their message in every ear, often many times over.
 The Apostle Paul asked, 'How will they believe in him of whom they have not heard?' Good question. And, judging by the statistics above, there are far, far more people who are having the opportunity to hear the Jehovah's Witness message, than the message of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't that people are hard-hearted - it's that they aren't having enough exposures and opportunities to receive the Restored Gospel.
 Best Member-Missionary Program
 Jehovah's Witnesses
 Of the more than six million active Jehovah's Witnesses, almost all spend a minimum of ten hours a month sharing their faith with others, and 850,000 - almost 15% - spend fifty or more hours a month. According to George Barna's study of religious practices by denomination published on of July 9, 2001, only 26% of U.S. Latter-day Saints make any attempt at all to share their faith with non-members over the course of an entire year. So Latter-day Saints aren't even in the running.
Best Proselyting Magazine
Jehovah's Witnesses
Watchtower and Awake! This one isn't even a close. The hands-down winner is the Jehovah's Witness organization for Watchtower and Awake! Watchtower has an average circulation of over 22 million -- the largest circulation of any religious magazine, while Awake! follows behind at 19 million. No other religious magazines even approach this distribution. The Watchtower is translated into 144 languages for simultaneous release, and so it escapes the English-language cultural stigma of many other religious magazines that are translated into other languages weeks or months after the English version. If you pick up a copy of Awake! or the Watchtower, you'll quickly see why these magazines are so successful.
 Many religious magazines are directed primarily to existing members and use vocabulary and references that are not understandable to non-members who aren't 'in the know.' Not so with the Watchtower and Awake! Thumbing through one of the numerous of copies of Awake! in front of me, I see well-written articles on Louis Braille's invention of the Braille script, the volcanic creation of the Santorini Island, Chagas ' disease, Olympic facts, the life cycle of Beavers, a recent earthquake in Taiwan, Jehovah's Witnesses service projects, and much more - all masterfully tied into Bible themes.
One Jehovah's Witness friend of mine mentioned not long ago that he had never completed college, but that he felt t hat he had learned many college-level items by reading Awake! over the course of his life. The Watchtower contains more life-application type articles related to Biblical doctrines. While the articles definitely carry the Jehovah's Witness' theological slant, they are also full of interesting and relevant facts that one would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. The authors have definitely done their homework, although I do not agree with many points of their theology.
 The Jehovah's Witnesses do a wonderful job of making their publications engaging and relevant to both Witnesses and non-witnesses alike. Also, many religious magazines today are permeated with flowery blandishments with little substance. Some denominations filter religious media to present a glowing media image, while failing to confront or acknowledge significant real-world challenges. Inspirational stories of individuals --however moving -- get old after a while without more real-world content, and besides-- many types of inspirational stories are claimed by all denominations, and prove nothing. The Jehovah's Witnesses are pragmatic enough to acknowledge that living Christian ideals in the real world doesn't always make for neatly-packaged fairy-tale stories. No one could ever accuse Watchtower or Awake! of fostering complacency -- to the contrary, they generate a sense of awar eness that I have rarely encountered in other religious publications. The Watchtower and Awake! are refreshing in their factual-based, well-researched, relevant real-world content. Regardless of the tenuousness of Jehovah's Witness theology, it is no surprise that these magazines are so popular worldwide.
 Best Convert Retention
Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)

 In contrast to 20-25% average LDS retention rates worldwide, both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Adventists manage to retain the considerable majority of new converts. Short-term baptismal goals, hasty teaching with limited attempt to assess the true depth of the investigator's understanding and commitment, and 'baptize them quick while they feel the Spirit and hope that they decide to come to church again' approaches, have resulted in a 20-25% average LDS retention rates in Latin America and Asia. I have never known of anything good to come of converts being rushed to baptism. Indeed, while rushing baptisms may result in quick, temporary increases in statistics, it also ignites a long-burning fuse that results in serious member problems, or even in the eventual collapse of local branches. Perhaps in this we have a lesson to learn both from our own scriptures, from our current prophet (Gordon B. Hinckley: 'it is not necessary for us to lose any of those who are baptized') and from the Jehovah's Wi tnesses, who ta ke pre-baptismal preparation much more seriously than most Latter-day Saints.
 Jehovah's Witnesses would never consider rushing an individual to baptism in two weeks or less: individuals must first prove their dedication to Jehovah and worthiness to serve as his spokesman. As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention, compared to an average 25-30% worldwide LDS retention rate.
 
BreakingAway
BreakingAway 8 years ago

So we're supposed to believe that a Mormon written article goes on non-stop about just how great Jehovah's Witnesses and their proselytizing is ? LOL Looks like more "theocratic warfare" (lies).They really are desperate for any type of justification or praise , aren't they ?
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

To me it seems more than a little narcissistic that the Jehovah's Witnesses' number one message printed by their publishing company is the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have the best publishing company.
No wonder current Witnesses are doing hit and run door to door literature distribution. If I were them, I'd be too embarrassed to let anybody see the literature. I swear that Revelation book had to have been produced in Iowa as corny as it is. Seven trumpets my ass!


 
watson
watson 8 years ago

I guess they havn't seen the baptism numbers over the last 7 years, compared to current active publishers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

I'd like to see some references..
They forgot to mention other stats that the JWs beat Mormons in:
Most window cleaners per 100 members.
Greatest toilet paper distribution channel in the world.
Greatest number of 3rd world standard building constructions in the developed world.
Most-anti education door to door proselyters.
Most humorous religious artwork.
Most pointless arguments (it really was a stake not a cross.)
Largest number of atonement ignorers.
Prize for the only group who can actually drop the mood at a funeral.
Least visible Jesus ever followed closely by least visible charitable works.
...least that's what this Mormon would have written. Other than it being poo its not a bad article :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
kwr
kwr 8 years ago

Thanks for posting such an interesting article.
 
sf
sf 8 years ago

~delete~
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

Was this published? If so, where? It's got some Mormon terminology, but still I'd be interested in seeing the actual piece it claims to be from. Has it been embellished?
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

" Best Convert Retention Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)"
 I think that clinches the fact that this e-mail is false. Obviously it's cooked up by a JW who read the CNN article (which listed JWs and Seventh-Day Adventists as having the worst retention rates) and wants to counteract it before it gets around.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

"seven trumpets my ass!"


 
uwishufish
uwishufish 8 years ago

Was that Elvis and the trumpetiers or just the trumpetiers?
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

So, is it supposed to be a good thing when one cult praises another cult?
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention
This is incorrect. JWs have been shown to have the highest turnover of any religion, with 50% of the number baptised leaving every year. The other figures also seem to be somewhat incorrect or selective, as the Mormons have grown quicker than JW's and have higher numbers globally.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

I challenged this exact article on two other sites, since it is obviously NOT from any LDS source. I requested sources, references, etc., and so far ..... NADA, ZIP, ZILCH.
This is bogus.

SusanHere
 
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

I also thought it was fishy. This email came without any original article attached to it.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

Also, since the JW's don't respect any other religion's opinion on anything, why should any supposedly LDS-sponsored article be any big high-5 for them? If they don't believe other religions are anything other than spawns of Satan, then nothing coming from those "evil" sources should be quoted as being wonderful.
Isn't this kind of like how the JW's would quote directly from Kingdom of the Cults by that great fake Walter Martin whenever they wanted to dump on the SDA's or the LDS, and then vehemently deny everything the SAME book had to say about their own JW religion?
That never made much sense to me. Can't walk on both sides of the road at the same time. Just doesn't work.

SusanHere
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 8 years ago

I believe that JWs place more literature worldwide than any other group, but that is the only element of the article that rings true.
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 8 years ago

The Witnesses VERY SELECTIVELY sliced and diced from this report: http://www.cumorah.com/bestprograms.htm
"The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
This page catalogues some of the most exceptional missionary successes of non-LDS religious groups.
Non-LDS groups that consistently report remarkable missionary results are listed here. The listing of some non-LDS groups here does not in any way endorse their activities or teachings, nor does it imply that LDS and non-LDS missionary efforts are equivalent, nor that all lessons from non-LDS groups are necessarily transferable to an LDS setting. Other denominations lack the fullness of the gospel, modern revelation, and the authority that are necessary to building up of Christ's Kingdom on Earth. Nevertheless, in the spirit of seeking out all good and all that which is profitable for learning and instruction, some selected items are presented here in the hope that some value may be derived from them. Joseph Smith taught:
"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'" Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 316
It should also be understood that the content of this page is the sole responsibility of the author, and not of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to which this site has no legal relation."

Compare the Witnesses with these other "winners":
Best Native Missionary Program — K.P. Yohannan of Gospel for Asia
Best Community Outreach Strategy — DAWN Ministries
Best Church Planting Program — International Mission Board, Southern Baptist Convention
Best Evangelistic Broadcasting Network — Adventist World Radio
Best Parachurch Volunteer Organization — Maranatha
Best Scripture Translation Organization — Wycliffe Bible Translators
Best Missionary Research — George Barna
Best Audioscripture Ministry — Audioscriptures.org and Hosanna.org
Best Unreached People Project — Joshua Project
Best Internet Outreach — David Yonggi Cho and Yoido Full Gospel Church

~Sue
 

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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Everyone,
Has anyone here left Jehovah's Witnesses to join The Churuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? What was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?
If you haven't joined the LDS or considered it, as an Ex-JW, what is your general view of the LDS faith?
Cheers,
-Randy
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago



 
joyfulfader
joyfulfader 2 years ago

I was contacted on Match.com by a guy who is Mormon. That was a quick and big no way. It's a cult just like the witnesses. Their beliefs are a bit odd. I have chosen to stay out of religion all together.
 
Cadellin
Cadellin 2 years ago

God, no.
No pun intended.
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

My insurance agent is LDS, I have known him for over 30 years, nice guy.
My birth doctor was Bernard Hinckley related to LDS President Hinckley.
My mother went to school with Cleon Skousen famous LDS author of The Naked Communist. I met him when I was very young at a lecture he gave.
My parents joined a Square Dance group that was mostly LDS.
All nice people.
Be sure and read the Book of Mormon sometime, you will wonder to the end of time why bright well educated people could ever believe such crap, but hey that's the power of Religion.
 
jgnat
jgnat 2 years ago

Never a JW here. The closest I came to considering the LDS church was when I took a religion quiz.
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
It picked the Mormons for me. I looked on with horror and thought, "No Way". I have worked with colleagues whom I highly respected who were Mormon, but, no way.
No chocolate.
 
blondie
blondie 2 years ago

Many non-jws think jws are NICE people.
I lived in Mormon country and each one tried to convert me...I decided it was crazier than jws...God giving Adam and Eve two conflicting laws so they had to break one to keep the other, that they were never destined to live on earth; going back to heaven and being a God in your own universe....I went to one of the convert meetings and saw a film....I walked away shaking my head. I kept my LDS friends but asked them to hold off converting me.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Designs,
"Be sure and read the Book of Mormon sometime, you will wonder to the end of time why bright well educated people could ever believe such crap, but hey that's the power of Religion."
I have read the Book of Mormon. Coming from a Bible reading background, it is pretty easy to spot the jump into KJV material in Nephi. Several consecutive chapters of KJV Isaiah are included verbatim. However, I found the read much easier than the Quran, that felt very foreign and repetition.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 2 years ago

I felt the Mor[m]ons are little better than the jokehovians. I have seen a few, and they seemed more focused on their churches. They always seemed to be dressed up in starched shirts, with that stupid tie, and headed to almost as many meetings as the jokehovians. They do field circus, but not everyone is required to and they don't have lifetime commitments to do field circus. For me, it would have been just about impossible to do well as a Mor[m]on even if I wanted to, since celibacy (no opportunity with the opposite sex) and Mor[m]onism do not mix.
 
The Searcher
The Searcher 2 years ago

Frying pan and fire spring to mind!
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

I cannot say I was tempted to join, but when I left the JW/WT Scam I went looking for something that was true to the Bible. The LDS church did not fit the bill.
It is more fantastical than the JW's, just, by a "short head", it is as fantastical as Scientology and, like the WT/JW Scam, it is based on falsehood. Look up about the "Book of Abraham" if you doubt me.
I soon went from this phase of my leaving process to examining the Bible itself, that too failed the scrutiny test, so I no longer looked for a religion based upon or connected to it.
I then examined the proof for the existence of God, He/She too failed, so religion was not something I would ever be involved in again.
I think anyone who leaves either Church needs to spend time cultivating Critical Thinking skills, without these you are easy prey for the Scamsters, and needs to spend time examining anything at all they are thinking of getting in to, religious or not.
Otherwise it really can be out of the Frying Pan.........
 
CyrusThePersian
CyrusThePersian 2 years ago

I was about to post that I would never again be a part of a cult that was pretty much made up by someone, like Joseph Smith, C.T. Russell or L. Ron Hubbard or their ilk, but in reality all religions were basically made up by somebody.
The only advantage that Christianity, Islam and Judaism have is that they are older, but in my mind the same rule still applies-somebody, at some time, made the whole thing up so I don't want or need to be a part of any of them.
CyrusThePersian
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 years ago

...I decided it was crazier than jws... Good one, Blondie. Me too.
It has been established beyond all reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith's translation of Egyptian hieroglyphics was wrong, therefore faked, and by DNA research that his establishing the religion on Native Americans being Israelites is wrong, therefore a lie.
Joseph Rutherford would have really liked Joseph Smith and learned more about snake oil from him.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 years ago


.......Mormons believe the Garden of Eden was in Jackson Co Missouri USA..


...................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW
 
quellycatface
quellycatface 2 years ago

I would rather nail my tongue to the kitchen table. Er, that's a no BTW.
 
Old Goat
Old Goat 2 years ago

From a cult to a cult? Sweet ... well, maybe not.
 
Ding
Ding 2 years ago

Contrary what the LDS church teaches, I don't think anyone is going to progress to godhood and have celestial wives.
It's also another works religion with a different set of rules and a prophet whose prophecies have failed.
 
Django_Unchained
Django_Unchained 2 years ago

the apple IS the truth
the snake was the hero
i'm glad to be free of any religious/supernatural bs.
i think i'll go say bloody mary 3 times in the mirror while smoking a bowl in celebration
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

No, never, the culture is too much like the JWs. I think the poster Cold Steel is a Mormon. I can't imagine why anyone who left one cult would join another, if you enjoy being told what to think, do and say, why bother leaving the JWs in the first place, you are just exchanging one set of lies for another? Magical underear, talking salamanders, golden tablets, and The book of Mormon. I read an expose of the many, many mistakes made in it that prove it was a 19th century invention, not a translation of an earlier work, as claimed.
I have known many Mormons, there were three families on my cul-de-sac in Colorado. They were very nice, but mostly kept to themselves. They had about 15 children among them, the kids were all adorable, nice kids, but they just all seemed kind of superficial, you had to wonder what they would be like if they could be themselves. One of them seemed kind of miserable, she seemed very intelligent, but unhappy, she didn't seem to enjoy being a baby factory as much as the others. I wondered what her true personality was. Another neighbor was raised Mormon, but became an emancipated minor at 16, got a job and her own apartment to get away from it. Her family disowned her, but sent the local elders around to try and win her back, her roommate told them she was out turning tricks in an area of Denver known for prostitution, lol.
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

From the frypan into the fire.
 

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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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JWOP
JWOP 2 years ago

After I left the JWs a couple of Mormons came to my door. Although I knew I didn't want to be a Mormon, I was curious about how they did church, so I went to a service with them. Once was enough.
 
poppers
poppers 2 years ago

One of the first things I do when they come to talk is get them to tell me their first name. Then they can't use their "elder" title as some sort of buffer between us. Titles are artificial barriers that tend to keep people at arm's length. I like to butter them up by telling them I admire how they show dedication to their beliefs through their missionary works and how they value education so highly, unlike some religions like the JWs. After I've gotten them on my side I bring up the idea of shunning, giving the example of the JWs and get them to verbalize that it isn't right. And then I get them to admit that they themselves shun people who leave. They usually will say that it does happen, but it isn't part of their official teaching as something they should do. Then I bring up the fact that there is no DNA evidence to support their belief about a connection to the ancienct Jews.
 
JWOP
JWOP 2 years ago

Steve 2, that's funny -- I actually did a video called "Out of the Frying pan", dealing with a Mormon who became JW, LOL!


 
Mum
Mum 2 years ago

I have never considered becoming a Mormon, but I have been curious about them. I have read two books written by former Mormon women. The first was Sonia Johnson's book, the title of which I have forgotten. Sonia Johnson was a Mormon who was excommunicated from the church and became a feminist. I read about her first in Ms. magazine in the late '70's, just after I left the JW's. In her book, she describes being the perfect Mormon wife and mother, playing the piano at church and doing mission work in remote corners of the globe. Then her husband left her for a "younger and blonder" woman. She began to question her life choices (or handed-down beliefs) and was avidly watched by the church. They had an excommunication trial where she was accused of worshipping "God the Mother." It was her against a bunch of men, some of them very prominent, so she didn't stand a chance. What they put her through was inexcusable.
The other book I read was called Secret Ceremonies. The writer describes her Mormon wedding in the temple. She has to swear to disembowel herself rather than reveal the rituals of Mormon temple marriage. She wears the obligatory underwear, which sounds like torture in itself. She spent some time in a mental institution. She and her Mormon husband get a divorce, and she later marries a non-Mormon. That marriage doesn't work out either. She does have a successful career as a journalist or writer. Her family (parents and 4 brothers) are ultimately disappointed in her, but they still communicate with her.
When I lived in the east (United States), I didn't know any Mormons. Living in the west, I have met many. They all seem like such nice people that it makes it hard to believe they buy into their bizarre belief system. It seems to me that many of the males have the "class clown" kind of personality. Some of the women are baby factories, but others are serious career women.
 
Bungi Bill
Bungi Bill 2 years ago

Presented with the choice of having to choose between the LDS and the JWs, I probably would opt for the LDS:
- if I didn't shoot myself first!

Bill.
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

If you haven't joined the LDS or considered it, what is your general view of the LDS faith?

I grew up with Mormons. -Went to school with them, played with them, worked with and for them, dated them and attended their services out of curiosity. I still have a BOM with my name embossed on it; a gift from an employer who was Stake President.
They have a similar set of problems to JW's, including but not limited to:
An aging and fallible leadership that picks up the mantle of inspiration from time to time.
A church history that is not openly presented to potential converts today
Views that are thoroughly refuted by science, but can't be changed because they are too central to the faith.
A vocal 'apostate' community that points these things out out.
 
Earnest
Earnest 2 years ago

Read their literature - Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants. Also read Robert Lindsey's A Gathering of Saints which was about a couple of murders in Salt Lake City and quite illuminating.
I did consider their interesting claim that God has continued to reveal himself and so the Book of Mormon is a continuation of scripture, but there was so much dishonesty I could never quite take it seriously.
 
KateWild
KateWild 2 years ago

Searcher, Steve2. My thoughts exactly. I may as well just keep going to the KH if I want a cult. Kate xx
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago

Interesting comments.
I've been LDS for more than 40 years and I've never seen any shunning. But if there is, it's not in any way condoned by the church. In fact, the church strongly discourages shunning. Why? Because it runs counter to the gospel of Christ, which teaches love and forgiveness. In one revelation to the church, the Lord states, "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive; but of you it is required to forgive all men." The church can't control who gets shunned, and people are people.
As for those who call us a "cult," well, granted. We are a cult in the same sense that first century Christianity was a cult. Jesus was head of a small but eclectic group of followers that grew into a large, mobile community that threatened the religious structures of the day. Jesus declared himself the messiah in a day when the Jews thought he would come and free them from their enemies (see Zech. 12:12-14). Revelation had ceased for more than 400 years and suddenly an angel appears to the priest, the father of John the Baptist, and declares a new dispensation. John prepared the way, and then Jesus fulfills his destiny.
Joseph Smith was a poor New York farm boy who did odd jobs for people to get money to plant crops. He experienced a miraculous vision in 1820, and ten years later began to fulfill his own destiny. Was he a con man? Not according to those who knew him best. Of course there were affidavits signed by many of the townsfolk, but those who hired him and those who grew up with him said he was a hard worker and an honest man. But then Jesus had those who swore he wasn't such a sterling character and that he was sired by a Roman soldier, so who are you going to believe?
Scientifically, the Book of Mormon has only gained credibility and has lost none over the years. The DNA tests were on the wrong people and the entire issue has received a scholarly response from our apologists, which, unlike people in the Society, were encouraged to seek higher educations and are recognized as being some of the tops in their fields. These include professors of ancient scripture, archeologists, historians, antropologists and geologists. And the evidences for the Book of Mormon grow each year. They have a huge list of possible "problems" regarding the book and each year they check mark the areas they've eliminated. The book has one leg in 600 B.C. Jerusalem and Arabia and the other in Mesoamerica, where the Lehites are thought to have arrived and flourished. If anyone wants information in any of these areas, PM me, and I'll send you info backing up my claims.
Finally, the LDS church is the only Christian sect with apostles and prophets, and which claims its leaders are called and ordained by divine authority. We have bishops, seventy, elders, teachers, priests -- all offices held by the ancient church. When our leaders speak, we listen because we believe they are true apostles, and that the revelations they receive are of God.
Most of the people on this site know very little about what they're talking about when it comes to the LDS faith. When I've commented on the JW faith here, I make damn sure I know what I'm talking about or I apologize. I mean, it's fine if you don't want anything to do with our church or any other for that matter. I hate to see people driven to atheism by religion, but it happens when people feel bamboozled. I have read extensively on every issue brought up here and yes, some of our doctrine clashes with traditional Christianity. But we've learned from the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi fragments that ancient Christianity believed many of those same doctrines, like theosis and premortality of the soul. But one has to be open. The Lord will provide a great deal of evidence, but he won't give you proof (though I think he comes pretty close).
If you really want to follow the path to see if there's anything at the end, drop me a line.
See this comprehensive article if you're interested. It covers just about all the misinformation above.


The LDS church follows the law of witnesses for all conferrals of authority. The
Book of Mormon also had numerous witnesses, and none of these ever retracted
their testimonies, but carried them to the grave.
.
 
Gypsy Sam
Gypsy Sam 2 years ago

No. Seriously, just act like you're buying a car and google the hell out of any religion. Positives and negatives. Then, make up your own mind. Once I learned TTATT end of last year, I googled other US relgions I'm familiar with and it was easy to see how they were nonsense.
 
LV101
LV101 2 years ago

Outlaw that's too funny - omigoodness!
 
ilikecheese
ilikecheese 2 years ago

Never a JW, but I went to high school in LDS land. I did track and the entire team was basically Mormon haha, so most of my friends were of that faith.

They're some of the nicest, most family-oriented, and educated people around. You'd be hard pressed to find an LDS kid who wasn't a scholastic overachiever at my school. My graduating class is only in our mid-20s right now, and a ton of them already have pretty fantastic careers set up for themselves. This includes lots of the girls. They're also really charitable. I know the education and charity are stressed by the church. It may be so that they can roll in the moolah, but oh well.

I would never become one, though. It's already strange enough that I believe an undead Jewish man can give people everlasting life; the Mormons take the even nuttier cake. My favorite thing was that when they built a temple in my high school town, they were giving tours of it during the summer when I was home from college. Everyone was allowed to look at it, but they needed to "purify" it after all the nasty non-Mormons had their tours. After the purification, no more unbelievers! Plus, there's a reason Victoria's Secret doesn't have a line of holy Mormon underwear. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: It sounds dreadful.

I do like the missionaries, though. Even if you tell them you're not interested in their religion, they ask if they can help with anything. And if you ask, they'll do whatever. Well, they might not help if you look at them suggestively and say they can help you get your pants off, but that's about it. :wink:

Oh, and they believe EVERYONE goes to heaven. The JWs would be horrified. I also don't know of any of my ex-LDS friends having a bad relationship with their families. They're still tight. Again, JWs - horrified!
 
Django_Unchained
Django_Unchained 2 years ago

LDS is just LSD done badly
 
laverite
laverite 2 years ago

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. HELLO NO.
 
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 2 years ago

One thing that Mormons do that is similar to pioneering, or serving where the need is great is that when young men (not sure if it applies to females as well) in their late teens are early 20's they go somehwere, not just in the US to do their preaching work. They call it be a specific name but can remember what it is, I heard Donny Osmond say in an interview that when his sons reached a certain age they "went where the need is great" so to speak.
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 2 years ago

no way
 
cantleave
cantleave 2 years ago

You just need to look at Ex-Mormon sites to see the similarities. I find it hilarious that Cold Steel trolls this site, when he could do the same on an Ex-Mormon site, but he knows they would tear him apart in the same we do active dubs.
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Most of the people on this site know very little about what they're talking about when it comes to the LDS faith.
But all these hundreds of people know everything about your dumbass cult..
 
KateWild
KateWild 2 years ago


late teens are early 20's they go somehwere, not just in the US to do their preaching work-shirleyW
It would be good if JWs and Mormons were like the Amish and had Rumspringa instead of preaching. They get up to all sorts anyway.
Cold Steel,
Are you for real? You seem so over the top you must be satirical. Good job at helping young JWs leaving to see why your cult is the same. Thanks for your input.
Kate xx
 
rubadubdub
rubadubdub 2 years ago

http://i.imgur.com/NTp2eRl.jpg
I've read about Mormons, because I knew a Mormon woman at one time. Some of the things mentioned in this thread and that she told me seemed unbelievable, but it was what she believed and practiced. She told me that she couldn't pray directly to god, only her husband could pray on her behalf. That was troublesome to me at the time.
jgnat, I took your test and scored 100% Universal Unitarian. This was actually the only church I checked out after I left. I just didn't get the concept of a church with no set doctrine after 42 years of being told what to believe. At this point (2.5 years out), I don't feel a need to join a community of faith.
 

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Topic Summary
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.



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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Cold Steel - no idea what your idea of a con man was: Joseph, started pretending to see buried treasure to get money out of gullible locals at a very young age (prior to his 'vision'),he wrote a book and tried to sell the copyright to make cash, started a bank and pretended it was backed by more silver than it really was (unsurprisingly it folded), had affairs with multiple women, some married and at least one with a 16 year old , adopted daughter and was shown many times to have no concept of transaltion (Egyptian alphabet, Greek psalter incident and the farcical Book of Abraham.)
Oh and btw the church doesn't agree with your robust defence of the dna issue. They've already modified the BoM to reduce its obvious error that the Nephites and Lamanites were the ancestors of the American Indians.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
The two faiths are of course different. Shunning for example is a official practice among Jehovah's Witnesses, whereas it would be more of cultural expression that follows what the LDS faith teaches about former members. Nonetheless, a current JW who is in the initial stages of doubt, will find the LDS faith a close proxy of his own and visa-versa.
The Youtube video posted on this thread showed similarities, such as the use of language like "increasing light" employed as a thought stopper. The two faiths seek to control members access to information criticial of the faith, suggesting it is like "pornography." I was fairly certain this was the case, but of course only knew the JW side, I thus had to ask on the exmormonforums.com.
Here is the post where I thank the user Abinadi for his reference. It has the respective quotes from the two faiths.
Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.....
Well, if we would act so decisively to protect our children from exposure to pornography, should we not expect that our loving heavenly Father would similarly warn us and protect us from spiritual fornication, including apostasy? He says, Keep away from it! (The Watchtower March 15, 1986 p 10-15).
Elder Packer said, “They leave the Church but they can’t leave it alone” (Utah State University baccalaureate address). They publish theological pornography that is damaging to the spirit. None of it is worth casting an eye upon. Do not read the anti-Mormon materials. (Vaughn J. Featherstone, member of the First Quorum of the Seventy)
Cheers,
-Randy
ps. The greater truth to the comment "they can't leave it alone", is the leadership of these respective faiths, don't "leave alone" those who wish a graceful exit. Name removal is a constant forum topic on Ex-Mormon forums and JWs often act against those who have left. Furthermore, who are these men to suggest, it is somehow wrong for former members to speak about their life experience? Or for that matter, should it not prompt some question about why former members "can't leave it alone"? Could it be they found the experience damaging and are seeking support from fellow Ex-Members? Or are motivated to warn others?
 
notjustyet
notjustyet 2 years ago


Had an aunt that was Df for decades and as a good Jw child, was taught to view her differenty
and allowed that to even carry over to h children, my cousins, she after years of being dfd and shunned from her family joined the Mormons.
NJY
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

Joseph Smith was a poor New York farm boy who did odd jobs for people to get money to plant crops...
I believe that Cold Steel, but that seems to me to be a problem in and of itself. A poor farm boy would have little or no knowledge of Ancient Greek and wouldn't understand that the AV did not correctly translate Greek idioms like 'αμην αμην λεγω σοι....' for semantic content. A poor farm boy might not even understand that this idiom is peculiar to only one writer of the NT.
And because of that, a poor farm boy might be tempted to borrow this expression directly from the AV without understanding that introducing a badly translated Greek idiom into what is ostensibly an Egyptian derived work harms its credibility.
 
humbled
humbled 2 years ago

Never.
It was a comment made by a young LDS woman that struck me side-ways that helped me look closely at the way the WBTS ran the Truth around on us that helped me THINK.
I had pointed out that their succession of "prophets" frequently overturned older teachings of past prophets. To which she replied "Well, you all have a similar arrangement, don't you?"
And I had nothing to say in reply--I knew it was true at some level. I ended up looking at old teaching of both the LDS church and the old literature of the JW's. There were other things, but this was certainly made me think hard about True Religion.
 
Violia
Violia 2 years ago

No
 
dozy
dozy 2 years ago

I do remember hearing about a MTS graduate who left & became a Mormon. I suspect that it is like the small minority of ex-JWs who join another religion - they still have a belief in God & the bible & are trying to replicate what they had in the JWs by embracing another community. The Mormons are pretty decent & moral people generally & I guess anyone vulnerable can be love bombed.
Like others , what helped me out of the JWs was reading the almost identical accounts on sites like exmormon.org.
It just seems that anyone with the element of critical thinking required to extricate themselves from the tentacles of the WTBTS would be very unlikely to join a religion like the LDS - there are so many holes in their bizarre beliefs ( the latest I heard was talking to the missionaries here & them telling me that they weren't allowed to go to the swimming pool here - I googled it & found this was an instruction that they are given ).
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 2 years ago

I thought about joining so I could wear the majic underwear to parties.
Rub a Dub
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago

CantLeave: I find it hilarious that Cold Steel trolls this site, when he could do the same on an Ex-Mormon site, but he knows they would tear him apart in the same we do active dubs.
Trolls? Moi? Ex-Mormons have already made up their minds. As far as trolling, I’ve been here since 2006, three years before you, and I joined because I’m interested in the Jehovah’s Witness religion. Check out my topics and my posts, and you’ll see that I only respond to irresponsible and ignorant statements by people who try to compare us to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Oh, and I certainly didn’t start this topic. Why criticize someone for defending what they believe? Don’t you?
Like it or not, there are many people here who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses. And there are even active Jehovah’s Witnesses here and they even post occasionally. And I tell them, welcome! The more the merrier!
As for those “Ex-Mo” sites tearing me apart, they’ve done nothing to discredit the church if one follows the breadcrumbs all the way. And besides, they quickly ban people like me who seek to defend the church.
If you don’t want to talk about Mormonism, great! Don’t bring it up.
KateWild: Are you for real? You seem so over the top you must be satirical. Good job at helping young JWs leaving to see why your cult is the same. Thanks for your input.
No problem. And yes, I’m for real. Can’t see where we’re the “same” as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Care to elaborate? I mean, we don’t shun. We’re allowed to read whatever we want from any religion we want, attend anyone’s church, anytime. We promote, advocate and encourage people to pursue higher education, don’t force anyone to do missionary work, and we can ask difficult questions during meetings...just for meanness!
Rubadubdub: I knew a Mormon woman at one time. Some of the things mentioned in this thread and that she told me seemed unbelievable, but it was what she believed and practiced. She told me that she couldn't pray directly to god, only her husband could pray on her behalf. That was troublesome to me at the time.
She must be FLDS, not LDS. The Warren Jeffs cult believes this, but not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Man, if they announced that in church next Sunday by way of instruction, the women would burn the church buildings down. And I’d probably give them the matches!
Qcmb:Joseph, started pretending to see buried treasure to get money out of gullible locals at a very young age (prior to his 'vision'),he wrote a book and tried to sell the copyright to make cash, started a bank and pretended it was backed by more silver than it really was (unsurprisingly it folded), had affairs with multiple women, some married and at least one with a 16 year old, adopted daughter and was shown many times to have no concept of translation (Egyptian alphabet, Greek psalter incident and the farcical Book of Abraham.)
All of these have been competently addressed countless times. I can’t force you to believe otherwise, but you’re wrong on the vast majority of these. Again, check out this article. Oh, and BTW, they found the bank ledgers some time ago and Joseph Smith was cleared completely of any fault. Banks were failing all over the country and it was primarily because of the federal government undermining state banks. Geesh, do your homework!
Sorry, guys, I hit my limit. Can only respond to so much. Just one more thing, though. Yes, Joseph Smith was a farm boy, but he never claimed to know anything about Greek or Egyptian at the time the Book of Mormon was produced. He later learned quite a bit about Greek and Hebrew, and no one knew anything about Egyptian. He tried to put together an Egyptian alphabet, but failed. As far as the translation process, he never claimed to translate using his own knowledge of language, but relied on the power of God, as Joseph's calling was that of a seer. You can find a lot about the book of Abraham on YouTube. There are a number of lectures available.




.





 .
.
 
OneDayillBeFree
OneDayillBeFree 2 years ago

Nope.

OneDayillBeFree
 
Splash
Splash 2 years ago

I see the Mormons are in the UK press today, explaining and recanting their racist policies.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/mormon-church-addresses-past-racism
Splash
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

All of these have been competently addressed countless times
...by Mormon apologists lol. Cold Steel - you do your homework from sources not related to FARMS! Trust me it will open your eyes - if you can see past the filters you have.
for interest please address the point that Joseph was a money digger prior to the visions and book of mormon story. Was this a fraudulent activity (looking in a hat at a seerstone, at certain astrological times of the year , telling people how to stand, when to talk, what way to dig in order not to disturb the spirit guarding the treasure that had been buried and 'cursed' so that it was 'slippery')? If this does not raise alarm bells then Cold Steel you have descended into the ridiculous. Joseph was a money digger and a seer way before he had any vision and this was attested by those who employed him. It is a little convenient that he actually then 'finds' some ancient artefacts, in a box, guarded by a spirit, that makes him ritualistically retrieve the contents (shocking him , as per money digging lore, when he tries to get them the wrong way) and then gets him to translate some metal plates (NOT gold - too heavy to run through the woods with!) using a seerstone in a hat (why bother with the plates at all!)
Stop and think. How likely is it that God would create a book like the Book of Mormon, replete with checkable factual flaws (windows, silk, wheels, elephants and so on), have someone translate it using magical techniques (head in a hat, seerstone, magic glasses in spectacles) , allow them to try and sell the copyright, allow someone to steal 1/6 of it so loosing that portion completely - just to teach one guy a lesson? When do your BS filters go off? Please, please take a reality check, go outside, look at the real world and shake away the cobwebs of magic thinking.


The supposed translation lifts heavily from the King James Bible (including real scholarly errors and also doctrinal points he later 'corrects' by inspiration!) and also from this book - http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"Oh, and I certainly didn’t start this topic. Why criticize someone for defending what they believe? Don’t you?"
I started this this topic as a break point in your thread about a religion based on assumptions. Cofty had suggested you have been using the site to proselytize for your LDS faith. I don't know if you would agree with that or not. In any regards you said you joined "because I’m interested in the Jehovah’s Witness religion."
That is what is great about forums like this -- folks interested in Jehovah's Witnesses, beyond the sanitized view presented on jw.org can come here and get a more complete picture.
As I said a few times, I appreciate the interest LDS members might show in the Witnesses, because the interest almost certainly stems from a recognition (even somewhat subconciously) that the faiths are similar. Both began in the 1800s USA, have grown into the millions of members, are world wide, see themselves as restoring a true form of Christianity, yet have separated themselves in practice and doctrine from nominal Christianity.
However, building on Cofty's use of the word proselytizing, I thought you would be interested to know how Ex-JWs in general feel about the possibility of joining the LDS faith. And, I too am interested. When I asked in the OP, I assumed, it now appears correctly, very few would make that move. Several posts said it would be like going from the firepan into the fire.
When you see the good in your faith, it can be perplexing to understand why other's just can't seem to grasp it as well. It is easy to think, the "if only" line of thought. If only, an Ex-JW would listen to this or that Mormon appologist, they would see what I see. If only they would read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. If only they would attend a few services or invite the missionaries in. After all, they surely knew the truth in their pre-existence. In a darker moment, one might reflect on 2 Cor 4:4 to suggest people are being blinded by Satan. Alas, we are all too familiar with this, because it is something we did a lot as Witnesses too.
Eventually, the answer to "if only" comes into focus -- and it is none too pleasant -- that our faith is based on false assumptions that are easily shown. And the false assumption is only one of the problems, once one discovers the 607 BCE date is flawed, they'll soon discover how arguments are presented to support it, engage blantant dishonesty. The Book of Mormon contains multiple chapters of the KJV -- and that is seriously not funny. The KJV is deserving of it's place in the English speaking world because of the hard work it took to produce it and promote it. That information is easily accessed, simply by setting a KJV Bible beside a Book of Mormon and comparing.
Cheers,
-Randy
ps. Seeing uninformed comments made about our faith can provide us some comfort. We can conclude the problem with critics is one of ignorance. As Witnesses we knew that we had no issues with Kingdom Halls with windows. We knew we didn't "want our children to die" over the blood issue. Yet, we heard such comments from those on the outside. Yet, such comfort only goes so far -- because some of the issues critics speak of will remain. I would also say, I learned much more about my faith after leaving and talking with fellow Ex-JWs. Don't assume, posting on an Ex-Mormon forum would not increase your knowledge. Simply asking someone to share why they left the faith can be enlightening, even if one may not agree with all the reasons.
 
Wozwozza
Wozwozza 2 years ago

brought into LDS as a kid 1957 baptised in 1961 baptised a JW in 1983 just a sucker for bullshit American religions I guess
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

As far as the translation process, he never claimed to translate using his own knowledge of language, but relied on the power of God, as Joseph's calling was that of a seer.
And that was exactly the point, Cold Steel.
Inclusion of 17th century Jamesian English artifacts of Greek origin into a 19th century English translation of what was allegedly, 'Reformed Egyptian' would be a very human mistake.
A man attempting to give a 'biblical' flavor to a work of fiction might inadvertently do this by borrowing expressions directly from the AV with little or no thought or consideration to how they got into the AV in the first place, but why would God do this himself with actual Scripture? To test us?
Why would there be any Jamesian English expressions in the BOM at all? --Especially expressions that originated from 16th and 17th century efforts at Greek translation?
Maybe you could comment on this when you have time and posts available.
 
wallsofjericho
wallsofjericho 2 years ago

NEVER!!!!!
I knew mormons that studied with witnesses.... trust me, JW's are the WAAAAY less crazy option of the two
 
Twitch
Twitch 2 years ago


If you haven't joined the LDS or considered it, as an Ex-JW, what is your general view of the LDS faith?
Never considered it; they seemed to have their own sunday flavour of divine right nutjob beliefs and it wasn't anything I wanted a part of
I have been in the local "hall" and spoke with the "elders" on business a few times. No breaks and full pop on rates. Creepy dudes.
It was interesting to walk through their church and observe some of the peoples. Different but all to familiar in a lot of ways.
No thanks.
 
sd-7
sd-7 2 years ago

Maybe 12 years ago, I had feelings for a Mormon woman and decided to look into her religion. I read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants pretty quickly. I tried my best to believe it but there was just no way to fake it, really. I was planning to join up with them but my mom put a stop to it, and I pretty much reprogrammed myself with JW stuff.
Honestly, it seemed contrived to me. The only way I could believe it was if I wanted to believe it. The moral code appealed to me, the fact that they seemed to encourage marriage and family and even seemed to have a special sort of interest in young adults--heck, I even studied with two female missionaries at the time. Of course, I think they were just 'love-bombing' me at the time, so it probably seemed cooler than it actually was.
Still, learning about their faith gave me a sort of respect for them. Not knowing the darker side of it all probably helps, too. But they seem less controlling than JWs to me, even though of course they fit much of the same criteria for a group that uses destructive social influence on its members.
On the plus side, it was learning about them that made me start to become more keenly aware of what was wrong with the JWs--mainly their inability to be honest when talking about other groups.
--sd-7
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Rawe: I started this this topic as a break point in your thread about a religion based on assumptions. Cofty had suggested you have been using the site to proselytize for your LDS faith. I don't know if you would agree with that or not. In any regards you said you joined "because I’m interested in the Jehovah’s Witness religion."
Thank you for your clarification, Randy. As a matter of fact, I joined this site because my family got dropped like hot potatoes after a branch of our family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. My grandmother was terrorized by JW literature that spoke of people ceasing to exist at death. The thought of her going into the ground and fading to nothingness was repugnant to her (as it would me). Once I'm dead, however, if I do become non-existent, I don't want to be resurrected.
Part of the LDS faith that appeals to me is that it is predicated on the principle that God is of such a nature that he would never put someone into the horrible situations that exist on the earth -- situations in which the rate of failure were remarkably high -- without first gaining the consent of the person being born into mortality. Because of our premortality, we had the choice of being born and consented to it having a fairly good idea of what we were getting in to. And succeed or fail, it was our decision. All part of free will. We had much to lose, but we also stood a lot to gain.
I realize that organized religion is not for everyone, nor will any revealed religion be fully understood by outsiders. The same was true of early Christianity. It was charged with being a cult, Jesus and his followers had their characters reviled, their doctrines twisted and both were severely persecuted. But the positive comparisons are even more impressive. I don't trust religions run by men who aren't called and ordained by God. The Jehovah's Witnesses leaders were never called of God. None was ordained. No church was formed, and there weren't any biblical offices such as bishops, priests, deacons, teachers, apostles and others. If no church, then no officers; if no officers, no authority; if no authority, then no revelation; and if no revelation, then no church. Thus, while we have general authorities very much like the JW Governing Board, the difference isn't in the suits, the ages of the men, the types of offices they work in, but there is a difference in what they say and do, and the authority by which they do it.
 
friendaroonie
friendaroonie 2 years ago

I really hate that this post is still up top when I clicked on active topics just now. What bugs me is how random it is. Hey did you ever want to take up gladiator reinactments? Did you ever want to take a popcicle stick, break it in two and shove the splintery end up your anus? Did you ever want to take the top to a plastic jug of milk, fill it with a teaspoon of salt water, take it over to the sink and dump it out and then put it back on the jug of milk without washing the small residue of salt that remains on it? Did you ever want to move to johnson city, Tennessee and join the Lyons club business association? I don't know, im not really coming up with anything to compare it with that is witty, funny . And just as random. But the answer to all of these questions, but to the mormon question infinitely more intensely and forcefully is screaming, Why in the hell would I want to even think for one second about becoming a mormon???
 

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Topic Summary
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.



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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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friendaroonie
friendaroonie 2 years ago

Oh wait, I just came up with a good answer: Hey! Anybody wanna come be stupid with me?
Hee hee
 
friendaroonie
friendaroonie 2 years ago

c.f. and I love how in that video its just some dudes talking in front of pictures of ancient jerusalem and egypt. I can just imagine all the mormons all kmpressed nodding their heads in unison sand saying aaaahhh. Mmmm so true. Arent we lucky to be living in a time when we are led by such a wise and fai th hful brothers to help expound on the trouth!
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago

Frienderoonie: I really hate that this post is still up top when I clicked on active topics just now. What bugs me is how random it is. Hey did you ever want to take up gladiator reinactments? Did you ever want to take a popcicle stick, break it in two and shove the splintery end up your anus? Did you ever want to take the top to a plastic jug of milk, fill it with a teaspoon of salt water, take it over to the sink and dump it out and then put it back on the jug of milk without washing the small residue of salt that remains on it?
What flavor was the popcicle?
.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"I joined this site because my family got dropped like hot potatoes after a branch of our family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses."
Do they remain Witnesses? This thread confirms what I believe is generally true. That is, few Ex-JWs become LDS members. And likewise few LDS members become Witnesses. However, it does happen. In both cases, it is a warm thought if your faith is the one that has gained the member. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dropped like hot potatoes", but it sounds like other LDS members were wishing to blame your family for this change? In any regards, if one is involved in a life-defining faith, it can create shockwaves in a family when you leave. Unfortunately for the Witnesses, this often is translated into life-long shunning towards those who leave.
"My grandmother was terrorized by JW literature that spoke of people ceasing to exist at death. The thought of her going into the ground and fading to nothingness was repugnant to her (as it would me)."
Witnesses are fond of quoting Ezekiel 18:4 to show the soul is not immortal and can die and Ecceliastes 9:5 that the dead are unconscious. Annihilation at death is one thing the Witnesses have been consistent about, since their start as International Bible Students. It seems to have stemmed from a general dislike of the hell-fire doctrine by Charles Russell (founder of the Bible Students). In reality it is obvious that death ends animated life. Most religious thought through the ages seeks to solve this obvious fate in one way or another. For Witnesses the solution was restoration of life via ressurection.
"Once I'm dead, however, if I do become non-existent, I don't want to be resurrected."
Of course if you were non-existent, you wouldn't know :wink:
"Part of the LDS faith that appeals to me is that it is predicated on the principle that God is of such a nature that he would never put someone into the horrible situations that exist on the earth -- situations in which the rate of failure were remarkably high -- without first gaining the consent of the person being born into mortality."
Religious ideas often seek to find purpose in life, find ultimate justice and the like. "Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!" (Joel 2:1). Language like this is common in much of the OT. When we see injustice, we want to see it dealt with. Since so many times it is not, we imagine an ultimate fix, a "day of the Lord". And of course, the greatest affront to us all, is no matter what we do, we will die. Nothing saves us from that.
"Because of our premortality, we had the choice of being born and consented to it having a fairly good idea of what we were getting in to. And succeed or fail, it was our decision. All part of free will. We had much to lose, but we also stood a lot to gain."
Pre-existence is an interesting LDS idea, that no doubt is used to make logical sense of the otherwise indifference the universe shows towards life. When a child is born into poverty and dies before the age of 5, it reeks of injustice. How can this be solved? Maybe we can imagine a poor choice made in the pre-existence. Or for Witnesses, we can reason this is "Satan's system" subject to "futility" (Romans 8:20) due to Adam and Eve's bad use of free will. Alas, the biological reasons for premature death in humans is often no different than what happens to dogs or cats, who, we would imagine, are not subject to choice and free will.
The idea of our life being a test of sorts is not unique to the LDS. The OT story of Job is of this sort. Thinking in terms of a brain evolved towards finding purpose helps make sense of why such ideas appeal to us.
"I don't trust religions run by men who aren't called and ordained by God."
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are ordained ministers.
"No church was formed, and there weren't any biblical offices such as bishops, priests, deacons, teachers, apostles and others."
The terms "ministerial servant" and "elder" are drawn from NT Greek. Jehovah's Wtinesses sincerely believe they are following 1st century Biblical patterns in how they are organized. Even how local congregations are named, such as the naming of "Union Hills" in Phoenix, where I was an elder, reflect upon patterns of congregation naming in Revelation and Paul's NT writings.
"If no church, then no officers; if no officers, no authority; if no authority, then no revelation; and if no revelation, then no church."
This is probably more a case of semantics. Witnesses stemmed from "sincere Bible students" who have never claimed modern inspiration the likes of OT and NT Bible writers. Nonetheless, despite such seeming deference, the leaders believe they are directed by Jehovah's Holy Spirit and are his chosen channel of communication on earth today.
"Thus, while we have general authorities very much like the JW Governing Board, the difference isn't in the suits, the ages of the men, the types of offices they work in, but there is a difference in what they say and do, and the authority by which they do it."
Agreed. There are both similarities and differences. Believing Witnesses would likely say "how dare they..." in regards to the claims of made by the LDS leaders, "see, our leaders are much more humble" the would claim. Pragmatically, though, it works out to be about the same.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
barry
barry 2 years ago

Cold Steele, Have any artifacts been found mentioned in the book of mormon that are found in the Americas? Things like arrow heads, coins or art works? Have any of the numerous cities been found also mentioned in the book of mormon ? The flora and fauna in th ebook of mormon is also false isn't it.
The mormons are allowed to go to other churches as claimed recently some mormon missionarys visited St Matthews here in Canberra in trying to convert some Anglicans to their church
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Randy: [Did] they remain Witnesses? This thread confirms...[that] few Ex-JWs become LDS members. And likewise few LDS members become Witnesses. ... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dropped like hot potatoes," but it sounds like other LDS members were wishing to blame your family for this change?
Nope. They dropped the whole family. You’re also correct that Jehovah’s Witnesses rarely become Mormons, whether they’re active or ex-. And I understand why. Any person leaving any church in bitterness feels that they’ve been manipulated, deceived, and that they’ve wasted a lot of time for nothing. That’s why many become atheists. But at the same time it’s foolish to put the Mormons in the same category as the WTBTS. There’s no ritual shunning, Latter-day Saints can visit any church they want or read any religious materials they wish. They can ask any question they wish in the various classes, they’re not forced into doing missionary work, they’re actually encouraged to seek the highest education they can, and our scholars are known also for the work they do outside of the church and are recognized for the work they do in ancient scripture, apocryphal works, archeology, geology, anthropology and many other areas. The Latter-day Saints are completely different, but there’s no convincing some people.

Randy: Witnesses are fond of quoting Ezekiel 18:4 to show the soul is not immortal and can die and Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are unconscious. Annihilation at death is one thing the Witnesses have been consistent about, since their start as International Bible Students. It seems to have stemmed from a general dislike of the hell-fire doctrine by Charles Russell (founder of the Bible Students). In reality it is obvious that death ends animated life.
Yes, the soul that sinneth shall die, according to Ezekiel. But what is death? It’s a separation. Spiritual death is a separation of man and God. Physical death is the separation of the body and spirit. As for Ecclesiastes, it’s clearly a philosophic book and not an eschatological book. If written by Solomon, we have to remember that he was seduced by women of other cultures, and that he allowed them to erect altars to their gods. His life was largely a disappointment. The author of Ecclesiastes was a bitter man who saw human knowledge and progress as insignificant. He also said that “And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the preacher, the whole is vanity.” (12:7) In other words, man comes to the earth, lives his life, then returns to God, and what does he accomplish? Jeremiah was told that he was known by the Lord before he came to the earth (Jer. 1:5). And the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” (John 9:2) How could that man sin before his birth if he did not exist? Jesus made no attempt to correct them. Peter also tells us that Jesus, while he was gone from his body, “preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6) How could he preach to the dead if they were not aware? As we’ve discussed on this board, if people are not eternal, those who are resurrected would be merely exact duplicates of the original person. They would not be the original. Once you blink out of existence, God can only bring you back by creating a duplicate being with all of your thoughts and memories. That person wouldn’t know any different, because he would have all your thoughts and memories, but the you that now exists would be gone forever.
You’re also correct that death ends animated life. If you’ve ever lost a family member or friend, or if you’ve ever had an animal as a pet, once dead, the body looks different. It’s clearly a shell in which the spirit, an eternal being, resides.

Randy: When we see injustice, we want to see it dealt with. ... When a child is born into poverty and dies before the age of 5, it reeks of injustice. How can this be solved?
Injustice? How? The Lord has stated that children who die return to the Lord and will inherit eternal life, without the necessity of going through the pain and suffering of human life. I wish I could have died that young, though if I had, I don’t think I would have appreciated death and a return to God as much. Most righteous people who suffer death recount that it’s like having a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders. On the other hand, many of those who live selfish, hedonistic lifestyles or reject the existence of God experience fear and for that reason refuse to move on. Many remain in the land of the living, being neither seen nor heard, fearful that if they move on, that they will suffer punishment.

Randy:Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are ordained ministers.
Indeed they do. But from whence do they get their authority? They certainly aren’t ordained. They also don’t have the opportunity of baptizing their friends or children. I was actually ordained, and I have a lineage of my priesthood. I also baptized my father a few years ago shortly before his death, and it was a tremendous thrill and honor to do so. But if Jehovah’s Witnesses are ordained, how does it happen? Hands on head? No, by baptism, and that is completely unscriptural.

Randy:Believing Witnesses would likely say "how dare they..." in regards to the claims of made by the LDS leaders, "see, our leaders are much more humble" they would claim. Pragmatically, though, it works out to be about the same.
They may surmise such, but do the JW Governing Body members see visions, have angelic ministrations? In the early days of the LDS church, after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, many of the apostles were spread all over the U.S. and I think one or two may have been in Europe. Many of the apostles who were closest to Nauvoo, the home of the saints, received revelations telling them to return immediately and not to reorganize until a majority of the Twelve was present. Turning to Jerusalem, John writes in Revelation 11 that two prophets will be raised up by the Lord to defend Judah during Armageddon. Both will have the power of the ancient prophets and will keep the Beast and the False Prophet from progressing from the valley into the city. But after 42 months, the enemy will break through and kill them. How can they be prophets if they aren’t called and ordained? How can the Jews build their temple and sanctify it, and offer sacrifices, if the Jewish Cohens (priests) aren’t taught how to do it?

Barry: Have any artifacts been found mentioned in the Book of Mormon that are found in the Americas? Things like arrow heads, coins or art works? Have any of the numerous cities been found also mentioned in the Book of Mormon? The flora and fauna in the Book of Mormon is also false isn't it?
Oh, yes. The Book of Mormon talks about a son of King Zedekiah who was led to the Americas and thus escaped the destruction of Jerusalem. His name was Mulek, and he and those he came with settled in the land; however, because Mulek and his family did not have a copy of the Hebrew scriptures with them, they lost their identities, their language, and they assimilated into other peoples. When the Nephites discovered them years later, they couldn’t even communicate with them, but because the Nephites had a copy of the scriptures on brass plates, they were able to tell the Mulekites about their origins.
Critics say that Joseph Smith erred in adding that part to the Book of Mormon because all of Zedekiah’s sons were killed in front of the king, and then he was blinded, so this was the last thing he saw before losing his sight. In recent years, however, archeologists have uncovered evidence that Zedekiah did have a son named MLK. Since the vowels were removed, we have only the consonants, but they have recovered his royal seal. If Joseph Smith invented the story, how could he have known all about the Arabian deserts, how could he have provided perfect directions in the Old World without a single error, and why does the Book of Mormon text contain chiasms and other Hebraisms? Even when Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon, it’s almost entirely what scholars have termed “First Isaiah” (on the theory that there were at least four writers who contributed to the book). The other two references were from “Second Isaiah.” This would indicate that these Isaiah passages were all originals and written by Isaiah.
There are many other evidences that the Book of Mormon is a genuine history. Going back to Mulek, he most likely came to the New World with some Phoenicians. Three reasons. First, Zedekiah had trading treaties with the Phoenicians. Two, the Phoenicians were outstanding sailors and were really the only ones with the technology to make the trip. Finally, the primary river in the Book of Mormon lands is called “Sidon.” Why would Jews name a river after a Phoenician city? Yet the Book of Mormon is silent on why the river was called Sidon.


This seal dates to the time of the reign of king Zedekiah. The
 actual stamp or ‘seal’ has the surface size of smaller coin
 though its thickness is greater. The stone stamp or seal is
 at the right first column and the second column contains a
 clay impression left by the stamp and a detailed artist’s
 reproduction of the actual Hebrew characters. The one half
 of the seal ‘spells’ out in Hebrew the name which would be
 pronounced as (lemalkiyahu) or “to Malkiyahu” meaning
‘belonging to Malkiyahu’. And the other half of the seal
 registry reads “ben hamelek” which translates
‘ben - son of’ ‘ha - the’ and ‘melek - king’.
Source
More Information


 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Ex-Mormon.org......
Dec. 2013 Mormon Church throws Brigham Young under the bus for his racist teachings.  These same teachings were "official" until 1978.
Oct. 2013 Yet another sex abuse law suit against the Mormon Church.  C hurch leaders are accused of covering up allegations that the son of local church officials sexually abused 12 children over the course of more than five years. T he suit alleges that the church, through its leaders, has tried to intimidate the families of the children suing the church and has allegedly directed fellow church members to try to convince them to abandon their claims "lest they run afoul of church teachings regarding forgiveness
June 2013  Mormon missionaries to work out of local church buildings to proselytize on the Internet
Feb. 2013 Mormon Church income annually through tithing is estimated at 7 billion dollars
Dec. 2012  If paying tithing means that you can't pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can't pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don't have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. Ensign Dec. 2012 [Mormon Church Official Magazine]

Feb 2012  Th e  Mormon Church has become even more intrusive by requiring members to wear their sacred long underwear [garments] even while doing yard work.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Randy: The terms "ministerial servant" and "elder" are drawn from NT Greek. Jehovah's Witnesses sincerely believe they are following 1st century Biblical patterns in how they are organized. Even how local congregations are named, such as the naming of "Union Hills" in Phoenix, where I was an elder, reflect upon patterns of congregation naming in Revelation and Paul's NT writings.
The question is whether the ancient church can be established with only a Bible? Alexander Campbell and Charles T. Russell thought so. But their churches have completely different doctrines. In fact, most churches think the Bible is the source of their authority, but the problem is, Campbell’s followers think Russell’s followers are going to burn in an eternal hell while Russell’s followers think Campbell’s followers will be annihilated at Armageddon. It doesn’t matter whether the people are good or evil, or what they’ve done for their fellow man, one God is pitted against another and that the losers are bruisers!
Is the Bible supposed to be a source of authority? Of course not. Papyrus scrolls cannot be a source of divine authority any more than a ministerial certificate bought off the Internet can. The Bible is neither complete nor inerrant. It doesn’t tell us how to baptize, who can baptize, what to say during the baptism or whether sprinkling will do when circumstances render it impossible to do otherwise. Also, can women baptize if no one else is available? How about the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Is that still necessary? (The LDS are the only Christians that I know of that still does it.) Again, if so, who can do it? How is it done? What are the words said and, again, can women do it? How about ordinations? Does baptism confer priesthood? If so, what kind of priesthood? What are the duties of bishops? Elders? Priests? Deacons?
These are only a few examples of things the Bible is silent on. Campbell’s church operates on the adage: “Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent.” Since the Bible says nothing of musical instruments in church ceremonies, the Campbellites have no pianos or organs. And even though the Bible doesn’t authorize church hymnals, they let that slide and include them.
There’s only one source of authority in the Bible, and that’s God. And people have to be called and ordained by someone in authority. And if you belong to another church, there’s nothing in the scriptures that say you’ll be annihilated or condemned to hell. Elane Durham was a Catholic woman who had a near death experience (fully documented with medical records and statements of people who were there when she passed). She said that she asked her angelic guide which church on Earth was right:














This was in 1976. Her account was investigated by George G. Ritchie, whose own near death experience inspired Raymond Moody to dedicate his life to investigating these experiences. Ritchie said “[A] facet of her book that I feel is extremely important, is the fact that her death has been verified by both the medical profession and the Catholic Deacon who administered her the Last Rites. I say this because so many people are writing about their NDEs today who can produce no proof of their having been anywhere near death.”
In the early 90s, Elane joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, after searching various churches throughout Christianity. Her account proves nothing, however, and I realize that; but I find it significant in that I’ve read of no other near-death account where someone has even asked about churches during such an experience. And while her guide answered her, he didn’t name the LDS church, but simply explained that one should look for a church based on the same precepts as the ancient Christian church. In other accounts by other people, I don’t know of one person who was asked which church they belonged to. Instead, they were asked, “What have you done for your fellow man?” That doesn’t mean it’s not important; however, it does indicate that the Savior is more interested in what is in your heart. And people who belong to religions that exclude others from salvation will, I think, find their own salvation in jeopardy.

Cofty: Ex-Mormons.org
If you’ve ever studied anti-Christian writings, you’ll see the same techniques used to discredit it. I’ll put all these things in the believe it or don’t category. I had an early Philosophy professor who used similar charges against the Christian faith. Satan is said to be an “accuser,” and I would take your accusations more seriously if you didn’t cut and paste them from questionable sources. I suggest you spend more time at FairMormon.org and Jeff Lindsay’s website before pasting the railing accusations.




.
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Cold - what information have you considered that is not supportive of Mormonism?
No matter how impressive you think Mormon scholarly efforts are you must , if you think long and hard about it, wonder why non Mormon scholars disagree completely with ancient history of America as described by Joseph and his non Mormon contempories. Where Mormon scholars talk about real things ( like the dead sea scrolls) there is a vast agreement and support from all other educational bodies. To a believing Mormon this discrepancy can only be squared by imagining a vast , coordinated, secular conspiracy to discredit Mormonism by suppressing truth. Common sense tells us that the reason such organisations as the Smithsonian don't agree to Jaredite,Nephite and Lamanite existence is for far simpler and more honest reasons - no evidence whatsoever, no buildings, no remains, no records and no artefacts.
◦Joseph has sex with his adopted daughter (16 years old)
◦Joseph has sex with married women
◦Joseph drinks alcohol, owns businesses involved in alcohol production and sale all after his factually incorrect Word of Wisdom revelation
◦Joseph makes up tall tales regularly ( for example claiming a stone structure was actually Adam's altar but forgetting what a flood would do)
◦Joseph caught pretending to translate ( kinder hook, Greek psalter and in our day Book of Abraham)
◦Joseph writes a book full of copy errors , factual mistakes and impossibilities - in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth - and then tries to sell it
◦Joseph tells people of supernatural occurrences many years after and gets his salient facts wrong many times ( confusing Nephi with Moroni, giving different divine responses to different questions to different people in the same 'First Vision')
There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Cold Steel its intersting that you dismiss ex-Mormons in the same way that JWs dismiss ex-JWs and evangelicals do the same to ex-christians.
Typical of all authoritarian cults.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

QCMBR There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.



Apparently not.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Qcmbr: There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
The same was said of Christ. In fact, in all of my studying of anti-Mormon literature, I have found the vast majority to be false, followed by other areas that are misunderstood or intentionally made to look foolish (“magic underwear”).
Joseph has sex with his adopted daughter (16 years old)
Who said? The only 16-year old I know of was Helen Mar Kimball, and it was a political marriage only done at the request of Joseph’s lifelong friend, Heber C. Kimball. Since the Latter-day Saints believe that marriages contracted here carry on into the next estate, Heber very much wanted to unite his family with Joseph’s. At first, Helen wasn’t for this marriage, but she remained a faithful member of the church and died an old lady in Salt Lake City. When she wrote her memoirs, she had very much changed her mind and she never indicated anywhere that her relationship with Joseph was any more than political in nature. She lived right over the print shop, and the residents of that area never recall seeing Joseph visit her. You can believe what you wish, but have you any proof?
Joseph has sex with married women
Such as? Please provide names and evidence.
Joseph drinks alcohol, owns businesses involved in alcohol production and sale all after his factually incorrect Word of Wisdom revelation
When the “Word of Wisdom” revelation was given, it explicitly states that it was not given “by commandment or restrain,” but as a word of wisdom. Mormons, including Joseph, continued to drink in moderation until the days of Brigham Young, who put the issue up to the Latter-day Saints for a vote to make it a commandment and binding. This was done on our own initiative and, in my view, it has served the church very well. What you mean by “factually incorrect” is beyond me.
Joseph makes up tall tales regularly (for example claiming a stone structure was actually Adam’s altar but forgetting what a flood would do).
This is hardly a major issue to base an objection on, especially since we have nothing directly from Joseph Smith. Nevertheless, we know that Adam lived in the general area, and the people who visited the “altar” said it was not in one piece. The following is by Benjamin H. Johnson, who said he visited the area. If the Book of Mormon is true, and if Joseph was a prophet (which I’m convinced he was), then I would say that if he said it was the altar of Adam, that it most likely was what he said it was. The answer depends on his prophetic calling.


With all the written scriptures he produced; with everything he left us, if you have to go dancing around the gray areas of Mormonism to find fault, one wonders why the Book of Mormon can’t be debunked once and for all, decisively? It claims to be an ancient record dating back to 600 B.C. And while little was known about that period of history at the time the Book of Mormon appeared (1830). We know considerably more about it now. Yet Nephi’s account, far from being debunked, is completely consistent with what we know of the region and time period. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then I’d think the Book of Mormon would be quickly proven a fraud. Yet it’s holding up fine. How is that possible?
Joseph caught pretending to translate (kinder hook, Greek psalter and in our day Book of Abraham)
The Book of Abraham is a book I’ll stand by to the end. Our critics act as though the issue has been completely settled and that Joseph Smith was proven a fraud. This is most certainly not true. As of now, an intellectual battle is raging, and I come down on the side of the Book of Abraham. The Greek Psalter incident is ridiculous and I can’t believe you’re even brining it up. What evidence do you have that it took place? The story was invented by an anti-Mormon professor who, in his account, quotes Joseph Smith as uncouth, unlearned and ignorant. Joseph never used the language that Caswall reported and we have his writing samples from the time to prove it. This is one of the things you should have known about. It takes my time to answer the charge, when you should have known better. You’re reading nothing but anti-Mormon literature and most of it is crap. As for the Kinderhook Plates, we have no indication whatsoever that Joseph had the least interest in it. After a historical analysis, our historians have concluded:

“The best argument against Joseph’s attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates is most likely that no one said anything about it at the time. A trap was laid for Joseph, but he did not step into it. Decades later, with Joseph safely dead, the conspirators came forward and announced they had ‘tricked’ the prophet. But, if they wanted to show Joseph up, why wait for decades to do it? Why didn’t they crow their success from the rooftops in Nauvoo and Illinois? Quite simply, Joseph didn’t fall for their trap, and so there was nothing to announce.”
The only two accounts of the plates contradicted each other in numerous areas. Smith never showed enough interest in them to write anything in his journal, as he did concerning the Book of Abraham. BTW, anyone interested in the Book of Abraham should check out the numerous listings by FairLDS lectures on YouTube.
Joseph writes a book full of copy errors, factual mistakes and impossibilities — in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth — and then tries to sell it.
Of what book are you speaking? Sounds like you’re copying and pasting from somewhere.
Joseph tells people of supernatural occurrences many years after and gets his salient facts wrong many times (confusing Nephi with Moroni, giving different divine responses to different questions to different people in the same ‘First Vision’)
You mean, like the apostle Paul? Actually, the church looked into a number of those allegations and also found them to be false. First it was claimed there were no revivals in 1820 — that they came later — and that was disproven. Then they said he concocted his first vision story many years later, but then they found earlier references to it in the journals of people who talked about hearing Joseph relate the story earlier than the published accounts. Also, as a journalist and editor, myself, I know how easy it is making errors in published accounts. Which change bothers you the most?
Regarding anti-Mormon literature, some deserves serious consideration (such as the first vision accounts, whether there were revivals in the Palmyra area when Joseph claimed and, of course, the Books of Mormon and Abraham. But it’s easy to just grab mud and fling it, and then the person you’re flinging it at has to go through the time and effort of cleaning it up.

Cofty: It's intersting that you dismiss ex-Mormons in the same way that JWs dismiss ex-JWs and evangelicals do the same to ex-christians.
At first blush that may seem like a valid criticism; however, the ex-Mormon community, with but few exceptions, are not competent scholars and historians. Clearly I’m going to take the criticisms of ancient scripture scholars, anthropologists, geologists, archeologists and competent historians more serious than those of ex-Mormon rank and file members. To undermine the JWs, all one needs are past issues of their own publications. Mormonism is much more problematic.
Margaret Barker, a very respected Methodist scholar with a specialty in 600 B.C. Middle East history, theology and tradition, and specifically, on early Israelite temple worship is going to carry more weight than someone who does Internet searches in their basement and creates anti-Mormon websites.
For example, she notes:

The tree of life made one happy, according to the Book of Proverbs (Proverbs 3:18), but for detailed descriptions of the tree we have to rely on noncanonical texts. Enoch described it as perfumed, with fruit like grapes (1 Enoch 32:5), and a text discovered in Egypt in 1945 described the tree as beautiful, fiery, and with fruit like white grapes. I do not know of any other source that describes the fruit as white grapes. Imagine my surprise when I read the account of Lehi’s vision of the tree whose white fruit made one happy.... [See 1 Nephi 8:10-11]
 Consider as well the mysterious rod of iron in this Book of Mormon vision (1 Nephi 8:20; 11:25). In the Bible, the rod of iron is mentioned four times as the rod of the Messiah. Each mention in the King James Version says the Messiah uses the rod to “break” the nations (Psalm 2:9) or to “rule” them (Revelation 2:27; 12:5; 19:15). The ancient Greek translation (the Septuagint) is significantly different; it understood the Hebrew word in Psalm 2:9 to mean “shepherd” and it reads, “He will shepherd them with a rod of iron.” The two Hebrew verbs for “break” and “shepherd, pasture, tend, lead” look very similar and in some forms are identical. The Greek text of the Book of Revelation actually uses the word “shepherd,” poimanei, of the Messiah and his iron rod, so the English versions here are not accurate. The hold child who was taken up to heaven (Revelation 12:5) was to “shepherd the nations with a rod of iron.” The King James Version of Micah 7:14 translates this same word as “Feed thy people with thy rod,” where “guide” would be a better translation. Psalm 78:72 has, “He fed them...he guided them,” where the parallelism of Hebrew poetry would expect the two verbs to have a similar meaning: “He led them...he guided them.” Lehi’s vision has the iron rod guiding people to the great tree--the older and probably the original understanding of the word. ("Worlds of Joseph Smith" conference at the Library of Congress in 2005)
She has written more extensively on the LDS views of the temple and traditions in non-canonical apocryphal and pseudepigraphal literature. And the fact that no anti-Mormon can get past is the fact that no one living in 1830 knew enough to write the Book of Mormon and other works Joseph produced. Even in the hotly contested Book of Abraham, the work includes extensive information on the premortal council of the gods, which is now a recognized area of study based on writings that simply weren’t available in Joseph Smith’s day. Had he produced the Book of Abraham today, anti-Mormons would have a field day dragging these documents forward to show where Joseph Smith stole his material. But in his day, the greatest biblical scholars had no access to such documents. The same thing is true for research in the Mesoamerican field of Book of Mormon studies. Each year, the Book of Mormon becomes more plausible, not less.
If it’s a fraud, shouldn’t it be the other way around?
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 years ago

I don't know why you keep posting on this board, nobody here will ever want to join the Mormons. One stupid cult is enough in a lifetime.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
You've posted a fair bit of material. If I get more time, I'll read it and respond. Here is a couple off the cuff comments...
"And I understand why. Any person leaving any church in bitterness feels that they’ve been manipulated, deceived, and that they’ve wasted a lot of time for nothing. That’s why many become atheists."
Indeed is not a nice feeling to make the awful discovery that a trusted source has in fact been less than honest. However, for what is worth, in my own case, I generally felt fairly positive about my involvement with the Witnesses, especially during my younger years, where I was adopted by the congregation as a "fatherless boy." Since both my parents were disfellowshipped, I went to meetings alone, even as an 8-year-old. I also remained in the faith for several years, after admitting to myself I was an atheist. At the time, I would have not expressed it so bluntly -- probably more of "I have doubts about the existence of God."
One Ex-Mormon in particular impressed me with how he expressed his feelings. His story convinced me there is kinship between Mormons and Witnesses who eventually come face to face with their doubts about the veracity of their faith. I found his story on exmormon.org and recall his concerns about DNA vs faith claims regarding American Indians. My point here is not the focus on his concern, but instead how he expressed feelings that were akin to my own. It has been a long while since I read his story, but I just skimmed through it again for this post.
Here is a snippet that captures his feelings: "I didn't leave the LDS Church and stop believing because it was easy. I desperately wanted the comforting teachings of the Church to be true. I don't have any brilliant insight to offer about the meaning of life, and I haven't found another true Church."
It is story #125 - Simon Southerton from Australia.
"But at the same time it’s foolish to put the Mormons in the same category as the WTBTS."
Some aspects are the similar, some are different. Naturally a believing Mormon will focus on the differences that seem to make the Mormon faith "correct." In the end, it is often a personal journey. You speculated on why many who leave the Witnesses become atheists. But of course, you don't know, right? Having never been a Witness or an atheist, all you can do is ask and draw conclusions on what may be the reasons. Likewise, although I can read The Book of Mormon and express critical vews about sections of the KJV being plagerized, this is not the same as being a Mormon. What the LDS faith means to you, would naturally go beyond such things.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
humbled
humbled 2 years ago

Cold Steel,
What of the LDS teaching that Jesus was a polygamist? March 1857 Orson Hyde gave a sermon that asserted that Jesus was a polygamist. His wives were Martha and a couple of Marys.
There are records of the past, even for the LDS church.
They are teaching whatever came into their heads--no different from the WBTS guys.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"There's no ritual shunning, Latter-day Saints can visit any church they want or read any religious materials they wish."
Compared to the Witnesses this is a point in favor for Latter-day Saints. As is this...
"They're actually encouraged to seek the highest education they can"
John Cedars is an Ex-JW who sometimes posts on this site and he is the author behind jwsurvey.org. He asked about shunning on exmormonforums.com. One response he got from "Rainfeather" was this:
From what I've heard about the way people are treated when they leave the JWs, yes I would say they are worse. With Mormonism, it's more of an individual thing. One family might tolerate a member who has left, while another family will shun entirely. It's a different experience for everyone. But the stories of shunning are just so sad and it's all so unnecessary.
"The Latter-day Saints are completely different, but there's no convincing some people."
I do not assert the Latter-day Saints are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses. Several aspects of those differences are exactly what you highlight in your post. What seems to be the case is this. For believers in either faith the focus is on doctrinal points and what supports those. The doctrine is all important, because it is correct and the truth, for reasons X, Y, Z. In the initial stages of doubting most disaffected members begin to examine the foundation of those doctrines and find them faulty. However, after awhile the focus shifts to aspects of how one was mislead, how wrong, but subtle arguments were presented and reinforced, etc. How control structures with the faith worked. In this Ex-Mormons and Ex-JWs often find common ground.
I doubt any believing member would find anything more the most superficial commonality between the faiths. Instead, if they did gaze over the fence it would be to laugh at how silly the other faith is in one regard or the other.
I believe almost no one on the outside can convince a believing member they are part of a faith the lacks a factual basis. Instead, something happens within the faith, that causes the member to question. Only then do such folks begin to take seriously what critics of the faith are saying.
"But what is death?"
The opposite of life.
"It's a separation. Spiritual death is a separation of man and God."
There is no evidence of this apart from a statement of belief.
"As for Ecclesiastes, it's clearly a philosophic book and not an eschatological book."
Says, who? Eccleiastes is part of the inspired word of God and truthful in all it's plain statements of fact!
I am of course being sarcastic, since again, either view amounts to a statement of belief. All we can say for certain is Ecclesiastes is an ancient book written in Hebrew that became part of the Bible canon. The writer certainly does seem to focus on the vanity of life, but I don't think there is any reason to believe he was merely being philosophical when he said the dead "know not anything." Rather, in context the writer is reflecting on the value of being alive in constrast to being dead. As he said, a live dog is better than a dead lion.
"And the apostles asked Jesus, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" (John 9:2) How could that man sin before his birth if he did not exist? Jesus made no attempt to correct them."
Hmm... I don't think the account demands that conclusion. The answer Jesus is said to have given here is this: "Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
The parents were of course alive while the child was in the womb, so they could have "sinned" then. Likewise, it may have been the belief of Jews then, that an unborn child could "sin" while in the womb. In any case Jesus said neither had sinned.
But, there is little point for me to go into great detail on these points. I don't believe in God or that Jesus was anything more than a man who long ago died along with everyone else in his time period. Likewise, I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses have the "truth", so all I can do is share what I know about the faith, but I have no interest in defending their doctrines.
"You're also correct that death ends animated life. If you've ever lost a family member or friend, or if you've ever had an animal as a pet, once dead, the body looks different. It's clearly a shell in which the spirit, an eternal being, resides."
Again, this is just an assertive statement of belief. To say the body "looks different" is obvious enough, why would we expect any different, given the physical actions of respiration have ended?
"Injustice? How? The Lord has stated that children who die return to the Lord and will inherit eternal life, without the necessity of going through the pain and suffering of human life."
Hmm..., okay...
"I wish I could have died that young, though if I had, I don't think I would have appreciated death and a return to God as much."
I'm trying to imagine how the parent of the 5-year-old would react if you told them, no injustice had befallen them and in fact you wish you could have died at that age too. Not to be too hash, but this is just contempt for life now, we know we have. All such talk of after-life is, at best, wishful thinking. Jehovah's Witnesses routinely talk about the wonders of paradise earth without seemingly giving a thought to the genocide that must proceed it.
"On the other hand, many of those who live selfish, hedonistic lifestyles or reject the existence of God experience fear and for that reason refuse to move on."
What though of atheists who are not selfish and hedonistic? Who have not so much "rejected the existence of God" but instead accepted life for what it really is? Could it be they neither live in fear and have "moved on" from superstitious belief, that is?
"Indeed they do [claim ordination as ministers]. But from whence do they get their authority?"
The same place as any who make such claims. It is a faith claim. Each particular faith dictates these rules -- that is their proragative. Saying they aren't ordained, but I am, because of this or that, is, again just another statement of belief.
"They may surmise such, but do the JW Governing Body members see visions, have angelic ministrations?"
Jehovah's Witnesses do not make such claims, but again, they would view with suspicious any who do. In any regards Latter-day Saints are not alone in these claims. TV Evangelist Oral Roberts claimed to have several visions, including one in 1977 from a 900-foot-tall Jesus who told him to build City of Faith Medical and Research Center (see Wikipedia for more details).
Cheers,
-Randy
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
You'll notice I don't comment that much on LDS history. That aspect of the faith does not interest me. However, how the Bible has come into existence and been translated is of great interest to me. So, when you say this...
"Even when Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon"
my comment is, this statement lacks precision. The Book of Mormon, contains, in copious amounts, text from the King James Version of the Bible. Never does the Book of Mormon "quote" Isaiah, which was written in Hebrew. Translating from Hebrew into English is a non-trivial exercise. Both word choice and syntax will result in a unique translation, even though others may equally convey the meaning. If translators are compelled to work with deficient manuscripts or are burdened with certain religious bias, that will show up, sometimes including mistakes, that only become obvious when older manuscripts are discovered.
The truth of this is easily available, all one has to do is invest a bit of time in reading how Bible translation is generally done, how the KJV of 1611 was specifically created and then just open the Book of Mormon side-by-side with a KJV Bible and compare. In previous posts, I've pointed to 2 Nephi 22 compared to KJV Isaiah 12 as an example.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Cold -
The same was said of Christ - I don't believe in that person as a divine being and the myth of Christ is awful to me. A cult is a cult. So agreed.
The only 16-year old I know of was Helen Mar Kimball - you'll be glad of this additional info then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/jsplural.htm You could argue that it wasn't sexual but then you'd have to argue that , since the sealing keys weren't given till later on, that Joseph was simply marrying pluraly with no celestial hope or promise. I can think of no rational reason why someone would simply marry additional women for no particular reason. To anyone not familiar with this modern mormons consider plural marriage to be synonymous with celestial marriage (a marriage performed by priesthood keys to seal multiple women to a single man to be wives for eternity) This is a salient point here because in Mormon History , when Jospeh 'married' Fanny the sealing keys had not been restored meaning that the marriage only had effect on earth and was simply a plural marriage - if it wasn't for sex what was it for? She was already his adopted daughter and the end result of this marriage was that as soon as Joseph's first wife, Emma, found out she chucked Fanny out of the family home.
the people who visited the “altar” said it was not in one piece . - this isn't the point , the point is it would have been buried rather than neatly uncovered. Anyhow it was a simple example of Joseph making stuff up on the spot - I could mention Zelph and Onandagus but to what end? - they aren't even in the scriptures. His mother said the following:
" During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."
Last one since I normally hate line by line rebuttals but this is a pretty fatal mormon fact and if it simply bounces off your mind without even a momentary pause then - shrugs - you never really wanted to know:

Joseph writes a book full of copy errors, factual mistakes and impossibilities — in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth — and then tries to sell it.

Of what book are you speaking? Sounds like you’re copying and pasting from somewhere.
Clearly I'm not copying and pasting a sentence of my own construction doh - I was referring to the Book of Mormon which Joseph tried to sell the copyright of with its impossible historical events, incorrect flora and fauna and anachronisms. I did post links to the books he lifted style and content from earlier in this thread but you missed them; I care enough about you to do your homework though: http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up .
 
barry
barry 2 years ago


 
barry
barry 2 years ago


 

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Topic Summary
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.



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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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barry
barry 2 years ago




 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Qcmbr: I don't believe in that person as a divine being and the myth of Christ is awful to me. A cult is a cult. So agreed.
So you’re willing to pre-judge any religious group based on the negative things people say about them? I don’t understand how anyone can read Isaiah 53 without seeing Christ...or understanding the law of sacrifice. What other reason would God have for commanding that an animal without blemish be offered up unless to act as a teaching device? I don’t know why the Greeks, Babylonians and others would offer up animal sacrifices because, to them, the smell of the sacrifices pleased their gods. But to the Hebrews, animal sacrifice had a much deeper meaning in that it pointed to Christ.

You could argue that it wasn't sexual but then you'd have to argue that since the sealing keys weren't given till later on, that Joseph was simply marrying pluraly with no celestial hope or promise. I can think of no rational reason why someone would simply marry additional women for no particular reason.
Since I haven’t made the plural marriage issue a point of study, I know that the vast majority of disdain came from external sources. But as we’ve stated, God is the author and framer of all righteousness. If there is no God, there can be no right nor wrong. FairMormon describes the Fanny Alger incident thus:

Probably the wife about whom we know the least is Fanny Alger, Joseph's first plural wife, whom he came to know in early 1833 when she stayed at the Smith home as a house-assistant of sorts to Emma (such work was common for young women at the time). There are no first-hand accounts of their relationship (from Joseph or Fanny), nor are there second-hand accounts (from Emma or Fanny's family). All that we do have is third hand accounts, most of them recorded many years after the events.
Unfortunately, this lack of reliable and extensive historical detail leaves much room for critics to claim that Joseph Smith had an affair with Fanny and then later invented plural marriage as way to justify his actions. The problem is we don't know the details of the relationship or exactly of what it consisted, and so are left to assume that Joseph acted honorably (as believers) or dishonorably (as critics).
There is some historical evidence that Joseph Smith knew as early as 1831 that plural marriage would be restored, so it is perfectly legitimate to argue that Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger was such a case. Mosiah Hancock (a Mormon) reported a wedding ceremony; and apostate Mormons Ann Eliza Webb Young and her father Chauncery both referred to Fanny's relationship as a "sealing." Ann Eliza also reported that Fanny's family was very proud of Fanny's relationship with Joseph, which makes little sense if it was simply a tawdry affair. Those closest to them saw the marriage as exactly that—a marriage.
The keys for eternal sealing were restored by Elijah in 1836. All marriages up to that point were systematically sealed with the proper keys, but not everything came at once. Helen Mar Kimball, the one I mentioned earlier, she suffered through the persecutions in Nauvoo and made it out to Utah, where she lived to a ripe old age. She was the one supposedly victimized by Joseph Smith, but shortly before her death she wrote:

I have long since learned to leave all with [God], who knoweth better than ourselves what will make us happy. I am thankful that He has brought me through the furnace of affliction [and] that He has condescended to show me that the promises made to me the morning that I was sealed to the Prophet of God will not fail [and] I would not have the chain broken for I have had a view of the principle of eternal salvation [and] the perfect union which this sealing power will bring to the human family [and] with the help of our Heavenly Father I am determined to so live that I can claim those promises.

I was referring to the Book of Mormon which Joseph tried to sell the copyright of with its impossible historical events, incorrect flora and fauna and anachronisms. I did post links to the books he lifted style and content from earlier in this thread but you missed them; I care enough about you to do your homework though....
First, please tell me about the incorrect “flora and fauna and anachronisms” the Book of Mormon is guilty of. Meanwhile, I took a look at your “books [Joseph Smith] lifted style and content from and I’m stunned. Do you really believe these books are where Joseph Smith got his writing style from? (As far as content, I’m unsure of how to piece your arguments together here.) It’ll take more than a few “it came to pass” phrases to get very far with that argument, which is why no modern anti-Mormon I know of today uses it.
In the books you listed, where are the Hebraisms that are found throughout the Book of Mormon? All I saw were some “thees” and “thous” and some of the formal English used in the Book of Mormon. But where are the chiasms? Where are the simile curses?
Apologist Dr. Daniel C. Peterson said the Book of Mormon would be more fairly compared with another well known book:

The only book that I could think of that may even resemble it in some way (some people have pointed this out) is something like J. R. R. Tolkiens Lord of the Rings. But we need to remember that Lord of the Rings was produced over a period of about 30 years by a man with a doctorate who taught at Cambridge and Oxford Universities. It's quite a different thing than a book that was produced in about two months. So the very existence of the book is an astonishing thing. It was not something that could just be produced by an upstate New York farm boy just off the top of his head.
The Book of Mormon was produced in two months and comprised some 420,000 words, a phenomenal feat, plus, as Peterson notes, it generates “a plausible and coherent geography can be deduced from the book that was produced so rapidly.” The writers quote from each other frequently and appropriately, small, obscure towns that are mentioned once turn up many pages later and a long time in the future, yet the town is in the same spot. Writers of fiction usually always get these things wrong, he said.
Then there are the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Martin Harris gave hundreds of accounts of it, and the story was always the same. There were no lapses in memory or contradictions. The same was true of David Whitmer. Again, Peterson notes: “[Whitmer] was given many opportunities to step back from his witness, to say, ‘Well, I might have been mistaken’ or ‘Joseph Smith fooled me,” or something like that. He never availed himself of that opportunity. He always stood by his witness. In fact, he did more than stand by it—he insisted on it. He had his testimony of the Book of Mormon placed on his tombstone. That, I think, is striking.”
Very similar things can be said of all the witnesses—all those who saw the plates directly, or those who felt them while in a canvas bag.
Peterson also has notes: “...ancient Near Eastern law did distinguish between thieves and robbers very rigidly, and particularly, ancient Israelite law did. Thieves were thought to be local. They stole from their neighbors; they were common; they were a nuisance, but they weren't really a threat to society. So when they were caught, they were dealt with judicially, civilly, usually by their neighbors, their townspeople, and they weren't a big deal. Robbers, on the other hand, were a very big deal. They were a threat to society. They were seen as outsiders, as brigands, as highwaymen. They would organize in groups, they would swear binding oaths; they would extort ransom from the people around them. And when they were caught, they were often caught by the military. This was a military thing, a kind of war. They were dealt with not civilly, but militarily, and they were subject to summary execution. They were quite a different thing [from thieves].
“Now, it's notable in the Book of Mormon,” he adds, that “thieves and robbers are never confused, and robbers—specifically the Gadianton robbers—are dealt with as a military problem, just as they would have been under ancient Israelite law, but not necessarily the way we think of them today because we don't make this clear distinction. So the Book of Mormon is found to be in precise agreement with ancient Near Eastern—and specifically, Israelite—concepts and usage.”
These are only a few items, and there are many more. You really think your evidence against is better than my evidence for?
.
 
Island Man
Island Man 2 years ago


"Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"
Hell no! I would forgive myself if I were born into the religion. But to actually join the religion as an adult with all the information out there proving it as rubbish - I would have to be a stupid fool!
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Lisa Rose: I don't know why you keep posting on this board, nobody here will ever want to join the Mormons. One stupid cult is enough in a lifetime.w
Don't read it if you don't like it. I didn't think up this weird thread. I'd rather talk about Jehovah's Witnesses.
So unless anyone has anything pertinent to say:




 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Ex-Mormon.org......
Dec. 2013 Mormon Church throws Brigham Young under the bus for his racist teachings. These same teachings were "official" until 1978.
Oct. 2013 Yet another sex abuse law suit against the Mormon Church. Church leaders are accused of covering up allegations that the son of local church officials sexually abused 12 children over the course of more than five years. T he suit alleges that the church, through its leaders, has tried to intimidate the families of the children suing the church and has allegedly directed fellow church members to try to convince them to abandon their claims "lest they run afoul of church teachings regarding forgiveness
June 2013 Mormon missionaries to work out of local church buildings to proselytize on the Internet
Feb. 2013 Mormon Church income annually through tithing is estimated at 7 billion dollars
Dec. 2012 If paying tithing means that you can't pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can't pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don't have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. Ensign Dec. 2012 [Mormon Church Official Magazine]
Feb 2012 The Mormon Church has become even more intrusive by requiring members to wear their sacred long underwear [garments] even while doing yard work.
 
cantleave
cantleave 2 years ago

Bloody hell Cofty, could the church of LDS be a cult?
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

I'm beginning to suspect it might be!
Damn I could do with some long pants for this cold weather.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"The Book of Mormon. . .comprised some 420,000 words"
I have a text file copy of the Book of Mormon, here is what the wc (word count) command reports...
$ wc bom.txt
 80232 293174 1589019 bom.txt
The three numbers are # of lines, # of words and # of characters. Thus 293,174 words[1]. This is the Project Gutenberg edition released on March 8, 1992. Also, keep in mind about 10% of the Book of Mormon is text from the KJV. Some have also suggested Joseph Smith used material from others besides the Bible. That bit I haven't looked into, but it could help explain the quick production of the material. Ironically (and correct me if I'm wrong on this point) the Book of Mormon today is smaller than it would have been, had the first 100 pages or so not been stolen, so as to challenge Joseph Smith's ability to reproduce them, after all he claimed access to original source material and special divine powers to translate. His response, was to report than an angel commanded him not to reproduce those stolen pages.
Cheers,
-Randy
[1] Word count for the Book of Mormon itself, would be slightly smaller number since this file starts with a few pages about Project Gutenberg.
 
humbled
humbled 2 years ago

For first-hand accounts of the early days of plural marriage(and why JSmiths writing reflects more literary ability than many suspect he possessed) read the diary exerpts of his personal secretary, William Clayton.
These writings surfaced in the 1980's (?) and are not the sort of archive the LDS Church wanted to get out in the public eye.
Like the Ray Franz book Crisis of Conscience it is documentarian in its perspective and therefore the more difficult to ignore.
Corrupt power/power corrupts. Spiritual hood-winkery and sexual pick-a dilloes.
The LDS has its own writting department and "researchers" who have revised the past just as the Wasptower has. Not a dimes worth of difference IMO.
Read for yourself:search "Joseph Smith's secretary, William Clayton" and go from there.
Maeve
 
barry
barry 2 years ago




 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

You really think your evidence against is better than my evidencefor
Yes - that's why I was forced to confront reality despite wanting it all to be true. You don't know what your line is the sand is. With Joseph and the church you have no criteria for determining what is true or false. Right now you would struggle to articulate what would be too far, too ridiculous, too far fetched in the history of JS. This is where I was.
Please feel free to compare the list of Book of Mormon animals

Asses
Cattle
Cows
Cummoms
Cureloms
Elephants
Fish
Game
Goat
Horses
Oxen
Serpents
Sheep
Swine
Vultures
with the indigenous animals of North and South America and see how many hits you get and ask yourself why Joseph didn't include any easy hits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_American_mammals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_North_America
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

While you are at it have a look at what your best evidence for the Book of Mormon is - the killer argument. I suggest you'll choose between chiastic forms or NHM/NHR. We have more evidence for a tiny Viking settlement in Americas than for the huge Jaredite , Nephite and Lamanite civilisations. hmm.
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 2 years ago

Yes, I seriously thought about becoming a Mormon or an Hasidic Jew.
However, with the Mormons the Majic Underwear gave me a rash. Then I tried to be an Hasidic Jew but couldn't get a black hat that fit my head properly.
I decided to stay in my comfort zone as a JW.

Rub a Dub
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago

Pre-Columbian Wheels
Just a few years ago, no one thought the Mayans had wheels, yet toys have now been found with wheels. The Book of Mormon also mentions level roads, and in Mesoamerica are the only level roads ever discovered. Most use the Roman design, which has a higher top so water runoff would occur; however, the Mayans didn't need or use such roads. And why would they have such large roads if there were no wheels? But back in the 60s, archeologists found four massive wheels of stone with square peg holes cut in the middle. They were enormous. Besides, how did they get the stones from the quarries if they didn't have conveyances of some sort? And what pulled them?
Anachronisms: Our scholars have made a list and have been checking it twice. So why do the list of anachronisms continue to plummet like a rock? In 1842, our list had only eight confirmed; in 2005, it has dropped to 36 confirmed. If the Book of Mormon was false, it should be going the other direction. When the Book of Mormon first appeared, do any of you guys know how many gold or other metal plates had ever been discovered with writing on them? Close your eyes...whaddya see? That's right, nothing! No gold plates in stone boxes in ancient America or ancient Old World. Now they've been found all over the place.





Chariots

Proof of wheels didn't exist until fairly recently.

Book of Mormon Animals
Deutero-Isaiah and the Book of Mormon
Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
.





 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Mormon "scholars" are wasting their time polishing a turd.
I have read large parts of the book. It's childish nonsense.
When Joe Smith wrote down the parts he clearly plagiarized from the King James bible why did he not have the wit to update the language?
exmormon.org...
 
2+2=5
2+2=5 2 years ago

Were you once a JW Cold Steel? Why the fascination with this site? Are you here to convert us?
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

"We might put in that instead of the New Testament producing the Church, the Church produced the New Testament" scholar A. Powell Davies
The same can be said for such works as the Book of Mormon. Clever, dupes a lot of readers, but on careful examination the BOM falls hard just like the NT.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi 2+2=5,
"Were you once a JW Cold Steel? Why the fascination with this site? Are you here to convert us?"
Cold Steel answered that near the top of this thread. His interest in Jehovah's Witnesses stems from some family members that left the LDS faith to become Jehovah's Witnesses.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Designs,
"Clever, dupes a lot of readers, but on careful examination the BOM falls hard just like the NT."
There are some important differences though. The NT is a collection of books by different authors written in ancient Greek. We have on hand bona fide copies of early manuscripts, such as the one I saw (P45) at Chester Beaty Library in Dublin. In contrast not a single shred of physical evidence places the Book of Mormon in a period prior to the 1830s or in a language other than English (16th century English at that). You'll notice arguments always tend to focus on unique theories regarding the setting of the Book of Mormon (a bit in Jerusalem area then a move to the Americas). No one points to originals of the gold plates for inspection and non-biased translation. It is also true the NT quotes the OT (usually a the Septuagint -- a Greeek translation of the OT). However, nowhere would you find several consecutive chapters of the OT copied verbatim into the NT -- let alone the source of the copying being the KJV of 1611!
It should be noted, that even if the Book of Mormon had an accurate setting, that in itself would not lift up beyond fiction. Works of fiction often have relatively believable settings.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

Do you really believe these books are where Joseph Smith got his writing style from?
--Can't speak for Qcmbcr, but it's pretty obvious that the BOM contains many linguistic similarities to the AV, which is an observation that LDS apologists have no problem agreeing with especially when it comes to the Isaiah parallels of Second Nephi.
But this again begs the question of why a poorly translated Greek idiom unique to only one writer of the NT is sprinkled thoughout the books of Nephi.
 

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Topic Summary
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.



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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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TD
TD 2 years ago

...but on careful examination the BOM falls hard just like the NT.
--Depends on the criteria of your critique, my friend.
Purely as ancient literature, the NT is one of the best preserved pieces in existence. It describes a civilization, (Rome near the height of its power) that nobody doubts was real. We can see and many times even touch artifacts from this period.
If one is really feeling energetic, they can learn the source languages for themselves.
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago


Feb. 2013 Mormon Church income annually through tithing is estimated at 7 billion dollars

The WTS is well aware of the incredible wealth and influence of the LDS.

I am convinced that one of the highest priorities of the GB is determining how to massage scripture to make tithing a requirement for JWs in "good standing".
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Cofty:Mormon "scholars" are wasting their time polishing a turd.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, baseless as it is. If you had an advanced degree in ancient scripture or had committed yourself to any serious critical study, I might be more impressed. But I’ve read some of your other posts here, Cofty, and find they’re of almost no substance. You also tend to lift your points from other sources without doing any of your own groundwork. In short, if I'm polishing turds, you're throwing them. You put quotes around the word "scholars" but you know nothing about them or their backgrounds. You cite no examples of shoddy work, so you're just engaging in ad hominem attacks and essentially nothing more.

I have read large parts of the book. It's childish nonsense.
See? You did it again. Which parts of the book, exactly, are childish nonsense? And why do we have to ask? Again, based on your other posts on this website, you apparently think people are interested in your opinions without your having to back them up or document them. There are numerous non-Mormon scholars of ancient scripture who do not share your views of the Book of Mormon. Why should your views be valued over theirs?

When Joe Smith wrote down the parts he clearly plagiarized from the King James bible why did he not have the wit to update the language?
Just which parts are you referring to? Nephi and other prophets in the Western Hemisphere had the book of Isaiah and likened portions of it to themselves; however, these passages were very intelligently used and applied. They just weren’t data dumps. And if you compare the texts, they also weren’t word-for-word transliterations. Many verses contained corrections, and some passages were more closely related to the Septuagint than the KJV. Here is one article that may enlighten you. And here are some others:
Does the Book of Mormon plagiarize the King James Bible?
Discrepancies Between Translations?.
The Nephites carried with them their scriptures, which meant they not only had the same scriptures we had up to that time, but others we don’t have. And the Hebrews didn’t have the strict attribution rules we do in our culture today. Note these two quotes, one from Isaiah and one from Micah. Did one quote the other, or did they both quote another source we don’t have? Or could the Holy Spirit have dictated the same to both? So yes, whatever is happening here could also have happened in the Book of Mormon.



.
2+2=5:Were you once a JW Cold Steel? Why the fascination with this site? Are you here to convert us?
If I am here to convert you guys, I’m making a lot of headway, don’t you think?
No, for a long time I never mentioned my religion. Then someone either asked me what religion I was or I jumped in to a conversation about how Mormons were no better than Jehovah’s Witnesses and came to the defense of the LDS church, then came the cascade of insults.
When I had some JW missionaries over for a “Bible” study back in 2006, I also refused (at first) to tell them my religion. Why? (they asked). Because as soon as I tell you my religion, the discussion will change to what’s wrong with my religion and not what’s right about yours. No, they wouldn’t do that, they said. So I told them. The very next session, the two guys showed up with a guy they called an elder. Rather than sitting back in their seats like the other two, this elder sat on the very edge of the sofa. Then, bang, he began this attack on the LDS church. The other two guys just looked at him as though he were Gandhi and let him rant. We argued about premortality, the Godhead, theosis—you name it. Then he started in to “adding to the Bible” as warned about in the book of Revelation. (Apparently he didn’t know that that passage only refers to that one book and not the entire Bible, but we talked about that, too.)
I’ve always been interested in religion...all religion. Also, back a number of years ago, part of the family joined the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They immediately cut the rest of the family off and we never heard much from them after that. So that’s probably one of the biggest reasons I’m here. (If you really have to know, I’m actually here to secretly convert Cofty, but don’t tell him. I’m making a lot of progress.)
Actually, I don't mind people asking me about Mormonism, but I prefer they contact me by PM rather than start a thread that doesn't have anything to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, and BTW, I didn't start this thread. I just responded to some misunderstandings.


 
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 2 years ago

Marked
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

If you had an advanced degree in ancient scripture or had committed yourself to any serious critical study, I might be more impressed.
When it is obvious the Emperor is butt naked, there is no point in wasting time studying the woof and warp of his imaginary fabric. "Mormon scholar" is an oxymoron like "married bachelor".
You are selling a cult. Its not even a clever cult. Its embarassingly silly.
Douglas Adams nailed it in his book, "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency". One of his characters was an "Electric Monk" designed to practice religion in their owner's stead.
"Unfortunately this Electric Monk had developed a fault, and had started to believe all kinds of things, more or less at random.
It was even beginning to believe things they'd have difficulty believing in Salt Lake City.”
exmormon.org...
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"Nephi and other prophets in the Western Hemisphere had the book of Isaiah and likened portions of it to themselves; however, these passages were very intelligently used and applied. They just weren’t data dumps. And if you compare the texts, they also weren’t word-for-word transliterations."
What the Book of Mormon contains in these sections is not an original translation from Hebrew to reformed Egyptian to English. The language "reformed Egyptian" is mentioned in the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:32), but otherwise there is no evidence such a language ever existed. What the Book of Mormon contains in these sections is word-for-word KJV text of 1611. Obviously, the story of the Book of Mormon does not allow for KJV text of 1611 to be a source. What you say, though is key, lets compare the text, this is easy and beyond any further arguing. It is either word-for-word KJV or it is not. I've suggested 2 Nephi 22 vs KJV Isaiah 12.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/22?lang=eng
vs
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2012&version=KJV
Here is the text...
2 Nephi 22:1 And in that day thou shalt say: O Lord, I will praise thee;
though thou wast angry with me thine anger is turned away, and
thou comfortedst me.
Isaiah 12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee:
though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and
thou comfortedst me.

2 Nephi 22:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid;
for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also has
become my salvation.
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid:
for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is
become my salvation.

2 Nephi 22:3 Therefore, with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of
salvation.
Isaiah 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of
salvation.

2 Nephi 22:4 And in that day shall ye say: Praise the Lord, call upon his
name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his
name is exalted.
Isaiah 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his
name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his
name is exalted.

2 Nephi 22:5 Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things; this is
known in all the earth.
Isaiah 12:5 Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is
known in all the earth.
2 Nephi 22: Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion; for great is the
Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.
Isaiah 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the
Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

The reason why I've been pointing to 2 Nephi 22, is it shows a translation style of the KJV translators. Where the divine name YHWH appears in Hebrew, they typically did not translate it, but instead substituted the word LORD. There are a few exceptions to this general rule and this is one, where LORD JEHOVAH is the translation of the Hebrew phrase Jah-Jehovah. Nonetheless as you can see it is word-for-word and this goes on for several chapters in this section.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"Note these two quotes, one from Isaiah and one from Micah. Did one quote the other, or did they both quote another source we don’t have?"
Here is the text of Isaiah 2 vs Micah 4. In both cases we know from ancient manuscripts this text is legitimately old.
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Differences: (a) last days/come to pass vs come to pass/last days, (b) house of the LORD vs LORD's house.
Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Differences: (a) nations vs people, (b) go vs come, (c) ye, (d) law shall go forth/Zion vs Zion/go forth the law.
Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Differences: (a) many people vs the nations, (b) afar off.
So what does this tell us? These verses are not exact word-for-word. Nonetheless there are long phrases of material that indicate a common source, Micah quoting Isaiah or visa versa. Since both are known to be from the same time period it (732 BCE for Isaiah, 716 BCE for Micah, as per New World Translation, Table of Bible Books). The Bible is a collection of books, wherein actual original sources are not known. Looking at the Bible as a single book is just not correct. Thus it is entirely reasonable to believe religious thoughts of the Jews were written in several places then finally collected and redacted to become the Bible books we have today. You'll notice for example Psalms 14 is repeated as Psalms 53. While a modern Bible makes it look like Psalms is one book, in reality it is a collection of psalms that were originally on different five different scrolls. Thus it should not be surprising that an one psalm wound up in two collections.
Notice too the type of difference here, one is word order and different words. This is what one would expect, for material from a similar source, but varied slightly, then translated into English. It is for these reasons why one cannot really deny KJV text is copied into the Book of Mormon.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 2 years ago

Why would anyone here even consider becoming Mormon?
They make the Witnesses look sane.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 2 years ago

the Mormon religion is more insane then the JW's as far as teachings go. At higher levels they even worship Ra. But the JW's deny thier rank and file the messiah and all the benifits of being a christian. Both religions need to be thrown out with the garbage and niether focus any thing much on the good news of the bible.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Band On the Run: Why would anyone here even consider becoming Mormon? They make the Witnesses look sane.
It would be nice if people would explain their reasoning. It all depends on what one knows and understands. I know quite a bit about both religions, and I can’t cobble up any reasons why I’d prefer being a Witness. As pointed out, we don’t skunk people like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do; we can attend church anywhere we wish; we’re actually encouraged to seek higher education; we don’t have any restrictions on religious materials that we read; our eschatology is far more in line with early Christianity and Judaism; we have an incredible welfare system; our scholars are recognized outside of our religion; and, if one believes in ancient Christianity, we don’t believe in anything outside of those bounds, meaning, of course, angels, revelation, apostles and prophets and gifts of the Spirit.
So in what way does all this make the Jehovah’s Witnesses look sane? Or, possibly, we have two different ideas what sanity is all about.

Rawe/Randy: The reason why I've been pointing to 2 Nephi 22, is it shows a translation style of the KJV translators. Where the divine name YHWH appears in Hebrew, they typically did not translate it, but instead substituted the word LORD.
The translation issue is one of the far most misunderstood issue of the religion. We LDS have never claimed that Joseph Smith used the same translating process as scholars and linguists. We even have no issues with the KJV of Isaiah being used in the Book of Mormon, as long as the translations are accurate. For example, people get upset when they see the word “Christ” being used in the translation of a Hebrew document produced several hundred years B.C. Mormons understand that “Messiah” would have worked equally as well, but “Christ” means the same thing in English. Or the word “adieu” in the book of Jacob. It wasn’t the word Jacob used or even a derivation of it, but readers of the Book of Mormon knew what the word meant, and it was a word that Smith knew and used in his day. So again, the final and enduring question is and remains, is the Book of Mormon translated correctly? And our reply is, it is.


Note: This article, from BBC, reports these gold
 plates date back to 600 B.C., same date as the
 gold plates found by Joseph Smith.


Following the directions given in the Book of Mormon, members of
the Nephi Project ended up just where Nephi did...in a great valley
("steadfast and immovable"), with a stream of water running con-
tinually through it. Subsequent research showed the encampment
dates back to 600 B.C. So did the river of water.

1 Nephi 2:9-10: And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness! And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!


 .
 
fedup
fedup 2 years ago

What's better, hospital food or airline food?
I hate them both.
Why study the creation of Man when you can study the creation of God?
Stop waisting your time with stupid writings from jokers of the past.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"We even have no issues with the KJV of Isaiah being used in the Book of Mormon, as long as the translations are accurate."
My argument is that you should have issues for a couple important reasons.
Using KJV text of 1611 in this manner does not square with the story of how the Book of Mormon was produced. As explained, the claim is the Book of Mormon is a divine translation of reformed Egyptian (a language not known to exist) into English. Where Isaiah is quoted in 2 Nephi the presentation is this would be Hebrew that would have been translated into reformed Egyptian then from that into English. Or alternatively the writer of Nephi had Hebrew copies of Isaiah. But in no case, could he have the KJV text, since it would not be produced until centuries later in 1611.
Saying "we have no issues" is a glib dismissal, that does not show respect for the effort to produce the KJV. Much of our written and spoken English has been influenced by word choices in the KJV.
"For example, people get upset when they see the word “Christ” being used in the translation of a Hebrew document produced several hundred years B.C. Mormons understand that “Messiah” would have worked equally as well, but “Christ” means the same thing in English."
I can't speak for others, but "upset" is not the word I would use. The only point here "Christ" is a Greek word and therefore would be an obvious anachronism if presented as supposedly part of a Hebrew text. In the Bible you won't find "Christ" in the OT, since the language of the OT does not allow for it.
When would you say, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians, 607 BCE or 587 BCE? If you looked it up on Wikipedia you would get the correct answer: 587 BCE. Yet, don't think for a second that a determined stick-to-their-guns Witness couldn't argue for 607 BCE. There is a thread here between Jeffro and AnnOmaly (sp?) and Scholar where Scholar argues post after post for 607 BCE, citing all sorts of supposed evidence.
What seems to happen in both faiths, is we subconciously use different standards for evaluating claims. When you look at the Witness claim of 607 BCE, as an outsider who is not committed to JW dogma, it is easy to dismiss. However, for the Witness to dismiss that would dismantle the entire foundation of their faith that points to 1914. Thus, even the most outlandish approach in the work of an appologist supporting 607 BCE is accepted and the considerable evidence for 587 BCE get a glib dismissal. And let's face it saying "God did it" allows for anything -- maybe God just liked how the KJV sounded.
Or imagine this, at college a student is doing religious studies. He is given an assignment to write some poetic phrases praising God who gives comfort. The student turns in the exact word-for-word copy of Isaiah 12 from the KJV. In that setting you would no doubt have no problem calling the student out for plagiarism. Yet in the context of the Book of Mormon a believer is expected not to be concerned.
Or look at the example you gave above about the wheel. A commitment to LDS dogma overshadows what should be an interesting idea. That is, why, did small wheels wind up on a few toys, but never anything larger? This is facinating stuff! From what I read, the wheel is only part of the problem. It was solving the issue of the axel that lead to this incredible breakthrough technology. Yet LDS dogma would have us believe an advanced society achieved (or imported) this technology in the Americas, but in 1492 when Columbus arrives it is nowhere to be found.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Rawe/Randy: Using KJV text of 1611 in this manner does not square with the story of how the Book of Mormon was produced. As explained, the claim is the Book of Mormon is a divine translation of reformed Egyptian (a language not known to exist) into English.
Actually, it wasn’t known at Joseph Smith’s time, there were a number of reformed Egyptian languages at 600 B.C. So much research has been done on this topic that it’s best I just point the way. Suffice it to say that the Book of Mormon is the first historical book to mention that Egyptian had been modified and reformed by anyone anciently. Since 1830, archeologists have found a number of reformed Egyptian texts, reformed Greek texts and other writings that were used to spell out other languages. My wife sends her relatives a “reformed” English, where she uses English letters to spell out words in her native Farsi. This is what our scholars believe Lehi and his family did: spell out Hebrew using an Egyptian shorthand (which we now know was common in 600 B.C.) And though no examples of Nephi’s reformed Egyptian have been found as complete text, there are examples of individual characters having been used.
◦Jewish and Other Semitic Texts Written in Egyptian Characters
◦The Isaiah Problem in the Book of Mormon
◦The Wheel in Ancient America
◦Nephi or Moroni?
◦Shiz, the Headless
.



.

When would you say, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians, 607 BCE or 587 BCE? If you looked it up on Wikipedia you would get the correct answer: 587 BCE. Yet, don't think for a second that a determined stick-to-their-guns Witness couldn't argue for 607 BCE. There is a thread here between Jeffro and AnnOmaly (sp?) and Scholar where Scholar argues post after post for 607 BCE, citing all sorts of supposed evidence.
What seems to happen in both faiths, is we subconciously use different standards for evaluating claims. When you look at the Witness claim of 607 BCE, as an outsider who is not committed to JW dogma, it is easy to dismiss. However, for the Witness to dismiss that would dismantle the entire foundation of their faith that points to 1914. Thus, even the most outlandish approach in the work of an appologist supporting 607 BCE is accepted and the considerable evidence for 587 BCE get a glib dismissal. And let's face it saying "God did it" allows for anything — maybe God just liked how the KJV sounded.
You make it difficult to convince you, but we LDS stand by the Lord’s promise in Moroni 10:4: “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
Later, Moroni tells readers, “deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.” In other words, all through the history of mankind, the Lord has never had a church or a movement representing him in which he did not operate through prophets, angels, visions, priesthood, miracles and power. And each time he has manifested his power, there are many people who simply will not accept it. There were those in the days of Jesus who, after hearing him, really believed he was nothing but an intenerate preacher who deceived his followers. The entire world at that time, led by the Greeks, completely rejected the idea that a living man, once dead, could rise again. It was as hilarious to them as the gold plates were in the days of Joseph Smith. Often the apostles would preach Christianity to the Greeks, who would listen intently until the resurrection was mentioned, then they laughed and frequently chased their speakers from their midst. It was the one big thing the early saints just couldn’t get over. It took a thousand years before people began to believe.
Mormons know that Jerusalem was destroyed years after 600 B.C. because Nephi records entering the city several times during that year and it was still intact. He didn’t find it in ruins. It wasn’t until a number of years later when his father learned by revelation that the city was destroyed (most likely in 587 or 589). Proving that that’s when Jerusalem was destroyed would, in itself, not prove that the Book of Mormon was a true record. But then there’s Nahom, being right where Nephi said it was, and indisputable archeological evidence that it was there in 600 B.C.; and in 1996 it was found to be a burial site. (How did Joseph Smith know that?) Three days out of the city we found a “steadfast and immovable” canyon with a “river of water” continually flowing through it and an encampment that dated back to 600 B.C. with an altar, indicating that someone there had priesthood. Again, it is right where Nephi said it would be. Then, if one continues to follow Nephi’s directions, then end up in a lush, tropical area by the sea on the coasts of the desert in a region our critics said it could never be. And it had fruit, grains, honey, bees, trees suitable for building a ship, a protected harbor, enough iron ore to build all the tools you would need and a steep cliff, that met the criteria for the one Nephi’s brothers almost pushed him from. And all this stuff is documented, photographed and videoed. Again, it’s all in the Book of Mormon in areas where our critics for years have said these things couldn’t be.
People can read the book and pray about it, or they can ignore it and join all the people in the past who rejected God and his prophets and his angels. Will you be destroyed at Armageddon? No. Will you burn in an everlasting (non-ending) fiery hell? Again, no. But you’ll lose the chance to reach your full potential in God’s Kingdom.
In short, we’ll never be able to prove conclusively and beyond all doubt that what we say is true; however, you can know of a surety through the power of the Holy Ghost. And despite your reservations about the translation process, the general authorities of the LDS church continue to tell us that the Book of Mormon is the most accurately translated book on Earth. And if Joseph read a term in the original that was Messiah, and it was translated Christ, it may go against what you think is a valid translation, but with Joseph, his power to translate was through the gift and power of God. So if he’s really a prophet, this means you can treat the Book of Mormon as though it was written in English, for God is its translator and bears all responsibility for its outcome. And yes, some changes have been made, but they're editorial changes that do not affect the doctrines found therein. Many, in fact, have been discovered to be Hebraisms (text that makes sense in Hebrew, but makes for very bad English).
 .
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"Actually, it wasn’t known at Joseph Smith’s time, there were a number of reformed Egyptian languages at 600 B.C."
Here is what Wikipedia says about reformed Egyptian: Scholarly reference works on languages do not, however, acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. No archaeological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America has been discovered.
This ties into my point about the struggle to remove bias we all have in how we evaluate information. The struggle is to apply the same standards to every claim without regard to whether we want to believe it or not. So, if we routinely find ourselves rejecting Wikipedia comments like the above, but have no issue when Wikipedia says something like this:
In 589 BC, Nebuchadnezzar II laid siege to Jerusalem, culminating in the destruction of the city and its temple in 587 BC.
we should ask why? Why is the first comment rejected but the second accepted? Could it be that every time Wikipedia makes an encylopedia comment that is opposition to Book of Mormon claims, it is wrong, yet, every time it makes a comment opposed to JW theology it is right? Thus, eventually I really started to ask myself, when I read something like:
Researchers found a haul of thousands of artefacts near the state capital, Austin, some of which were identified as blades and other tools. The material was buried in sediments that are between 13,200 and 15,500 years old. (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/mar/24/humans-north-america-stone-tools)
Why was I so ready to be skeptical? My commitment to humans not existing prior to 4026 BCE surely was the issue, not really the science behind that comment. In fact, this US vs The World was getting tiring after so many years. Also tiring was trying to invoke the magical as the ultimate catch-all explanation -- in the form of "Satan is the arch-deceiver" (2 Cor 4:4, Rev 12:9) Finally I realized this can also be a matter of respect for the hard work of reseachers, who sometimes labor without much reward or recognition and ultimately don't ask anything of me (i.e. obedience, dedication, etc) other than give their claims a fair hearing.
You make it difficult to convince you, but we LDS stand by the Lord’s promise in Moroni 10:4: “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
What makes you think, I haven't done that ;-).
Let me offer you this: Take up the Moroni invitation as outlined here, but apply reasonable objective standards and see if there is any answer. Consider the drug approval process as a model ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/the-long-road-to-drug-approval-1.876157 ). Since drugs hold within them the power to heal or kill, doing such testing is only reasonable. But, given all that is involved in being an LDS member for yourself and anyone you might convince to join, surely no less of a standard should be applied.
Later, Moroni tells readers, “deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.”
Btw - "same today and tomorrow..." is very much like the wording you find at Hebrews 13:8. What I find interesting about such "do not deny the power of God" commands, is that is all they are -- hollow commands. While some might find them fear inspiring, I see such commands as actually an indication of profound weakness. In claims that are backed by testable truth you just don't find such language. Read Darwin's On the Origin of Species or Richard Dawkins' God Delusion and you will not find fear-mongering commands of "do not deny the power of Hero-of-the-Claim"
"Mormons. . .but then there’s Nahom, being right. . .How did Joseph Smith know that?. . .Three days out of the city we found a “steadfast and immovable”. . .right where Nephi said it would be. Then. . .region our critics said it could never be. . .is documented, photographed and videoed. . .Book of Mormon in areas where our critics. . ."
Help me out with this paragraph. I currently know nothing of these claims and counter claims, but... I don't have time or desire to investigate them all and respond. Can you isolate the one you think makes the best case for the Book of Mormon and I'll respond? The Book of Mormon is allowed to contain anything that would be known to Joseph Smith in 1830 or other original authors he may have borrowed material from. But, it is granted that production of the Book of Mormon would not have been able to accurately name a future event in specific detail. Nor would it be able to accurately name a past event in specific detail, provided of course the past event only became known after the 1830s. Let me know if you don't think is a fair standard.
"People can read the book and pray about it, or they can ignore it and join all the people in the past who rejected God and his prophets and his angels. Will you be destroyed at Armageddon? No. Will you burn in an everlasting (non-ending) fiery hell? Again, no. But you’ll lose the chance to reach your full potential in God’s Kingdom."
Or it is just as possible God has a special fondness for the intellectual honesty of atheists such as myself and will be rewarded :wink:
The key here is the end phrase "in God's Kingdom." Take note -- that is how religion works, sacrifice time and energy now for a reward in the future, so far in the future in fact, you'll be dead.
"In short, we’ll never be able to prove conclusively and beyond all doubt that what we say is true; however, you can know of a surety through the power of the Holy Ghost."
I've had Mormon missionaries say the same thing and while as Witnesses we probably wouldn't have used those exact words, we would have said something similar. One of our songs contained the phrase "make the truth your own" as in one must prove it to themselves. Or "taste and see that Jehovah is Good" (Psalms 34:8). In the end, it is a cop out. Truth should be obvious to everyone and provable beyond a reasonable doubt. You'll recall I mentioned Simon Southerton's exit story particularly resonated with me when I was a Witness coping with doubts. One of the things he said about feelings touches on this issue of "feeling the Holy Spirit or burning in your bosom.." This idea is not as strong in the Witness faith (at least not for me) but is still there. In any regards here is what Simon said...
My uncertainty with recognizing the Spirit resurfaced during my first year back from my mission. Australia beat America in the America's Cup yacht race. To most Americans this was a non-event but for many Australians it was a huge thrill. Australia came from behind in the series to snatch victory in the face of almost certain defeat. I felt intensely warm feelings in my heart, as though it was going to burst. I had felt similar feelings when I was teaching discussions as a missionary.
"And despite your reservations about the translation process, the general authorities of the LDS church continue to tell us that the Book of Mormon is the most accurately translated book on Earth."
But who are the "general authorities" compared to me? Or you? Wait... don't break out in a coy smile just yet. The point is, there really is no evidence to suggest one human brain or a collection of them must intrinsically be endowed with knowledge and authority beyond any other one. This is just a fallacy of argument from authority, that by religious commitment, cannot be questioned. In this, Jehovah's Witnesses would same something very similiar about the Governing Body.
"And if Joseph read a term in the original that was Messiah, and it was translated Christ, it may go against what you think is a valid translation, but with Joseph, his power to translate was through the gift and power of God."
I am not sure if it was on this thread or another but I have allowed for that. As I said, if he really did peer into a hat (as I've been told was one of the methods he used) and saw letters appear one by one, how can we really argue with such claims? But if we allowed for this as our standard for evaluation, on what basis would one reject the claims of Our Lady of Guadalupe or the appearance of an angel to Mohammed? Certain far more people accept those claims than those of Joseph Smith.
Which gets back to my original point -- truth claims should be tested by the same set of standards -- not one we apply to those we wish to believe and a different (often more reasonable) set of standards to claims we don't want to believe.
"And yes, some changes have been made, but they're editorial changes that do not affect the doctrines found therein."
To a certain extent I don't make a big issue about that, other than that it shows the Book of Mormon is really without a foundation it claims. In other words, if gold plates written in reformed Egyptian existed and could be translated by any scholar who wish to (i.e. like what happens with available Bible manuscripts) things like just deleting the phrase "and it came to pass" hundreds of times, would probably get more attention that it does. Bible translators tend to choose different words or methods, literal word-for-word or dynamic equivelance, for example, but you would not find any (certainly none that I know of) that would delete a 5 word phrase out of the Bible again and again because they felt it made the text sound wordy.
Discussion differences and batting points back and forth can generate a bit of frustration, if your desire to to help me see the wonders of the faith as you see it. Let me suggest though such conversations do benefit the folks involved. Even how you've presented your recent views on "Christ" vs "Messiah" seems to be a refinement from earlier posts. Likewise, I'm sure when I chase down one of the claims in your paragraph I quoted with dots, I'll learn a lot about claims. Personally, I do not believe, folks leave either the Witness or Mormon faith based on what critics of the faith say. Rather in all the exit stories I've read, including Simon's above, something happens that is very personal in the journey and prompts the intial doubts to be followed by investigation. It is also true, what the Book of Mormon might say here or there, may really mean not much during the good times shared with friends in the faith. People love these faiths and sometimes they have good reasons, at least to them, for this to be so.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 years ago

Thanks for the laughs ....
Cold Steel, you are in a cult. You are also on the wrong forum to be of any use to you. you need to be on an EX LDS forum as an apologist or a doubting believer.
If you want to prove your delusion is the true delusion then you need to do that against people who have left your flavour of delusion behind. yes there are some ex mormons here on this site and in this very thread talking waaaay too much sense for your cult drone mind to accept. But you'll learn more and faster against hundreds of them on the right kind of forum.
Just face it, you've been duped, you cant see the wood for the trees and are dancing the happy dance in la la land. If you like it there then great, but you are still on the wrong forum and are pissing off a great many people who have woken up by selling your cult here.
It certainly appears that you have learned nothing in your time here about cults, how they work, critical thinking skills, or anything at all for that matter.
if you want answers then you need some humility and to learn some critical thinking skills, then you need to learn stuff you dont want to hear and face the fact you have been duped. It is a very liberating experience and well worth the effort.



 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

Can any Mormon or exJW explain the following for me, please:
"For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen" 3 Nephi 13:13 B.O.M and Matthew 6:13 KJV
Did the translators of the court of King James copy over the same words from the B.O.M? or, is the B.O.M merely a plagiarization of the King James Bible?
Why do no other versions of the Lords Prayer contain this verse?
I would love to read the official LDS explanation.
Recently I had cause to advise two Mormons making a return visit on a Nigerian lady in an apartment above my Clinic. They were with an older Mormon lady. When I asked the two young lads if they knew that the LDS church barred blacks from the priesthood until relatively recently... they were astonished... and the older lady confirmed my assertion. This policy, and the JW view on Neutrality were the issues that helped my Father decide which of the two faiths were promoting the "Truth".... Dad became a JW in the mid '60's. I was surprised that young LDS missionaries were ignorant of a fairly new change in their church policy.
 
cofty
cofty 2 years ago

Its a great question Podobear. I used it with a couple of Mormon missionaries mnay years ago and they were totally stumped.
Its like a teacher trying to work out who copied their homework essay from whom. Its not the similairities that are the real proof but the common errors.
That verse was added many years after the gospel was written and yet it turns up in the BOM.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

When I believed I couldn't understand the relevance of no outside scholars agreeing with BoM historical claims. It was this huge gaping blind spot in my thinking that stopped me realising the obvious. If Cold can stop and think about why no one else in the world of science , history , Egyptology or archaeology agrees with any core Mormon assertions it will hopefully break this mental block. It amazes me how powerful and blinding belief makes us. The constant reliance on faith over rational logic in an evolutionary world still gives me pause to think about what evolutionary advantage faith must give.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

..and its a great point podo! if you really look at the BoM it is filled with this kind of mistake that a poorly educated farm boy with a vivid imagination and the basic libraries available to him at the time would be expected to make in the construction of a fantasy.
 
excaliber
excaliber 2 years ago

I was a member of the LDS church for years. I know about the singles branch but I dont know much about the singles wards.
It is a VERY social church, there are a lot of events planed by the singles branch and they are actually fun.
I didn't like that there weren't many other ethnicities. And I didn't like the fact that they band blacks from the priesthood etc...
 

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Topic Summary
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.



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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 2 years ago 139 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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excaliber
excaliber 2 years ago

I ment to say I know a lot about the singles branches but not the family wards. Again they are far far more social then JW and plan cool activities. Having lots of social events for singles draws a lot of people to there faith.
But again I don't like that they banned blacks from there priesthood until around 1978, and there still aren't many ethnicities in the church in America. The even had to come up with a group called the genisis group as sorta a support group for blacks in utah.
But what they dont tell you is that this group is in utah.... if you don't live in utah near this group your SOL if your black because your probably the only one in your branch or close to it And LDS are only supposed to marry LDS and that puts you in a strange position if not many want to date outside there race because you need to be married to go too the highest heaven.
If your not married you go to a lower heaven and your not allowed in the highest heaven.
I also did not like how every time I met with my branch president he ALWAYS asked me about my tithing.
 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

Cofty & Qcmbr: Thank you for acknowledging the point I have raised...I hope I get an official LDS response:
Please now refer to Colossians 1:15-17 in the NWT 1953 and subsequent revisions. The word (other) is inserted in the text as I recall x4 times.
I was quite happy to uphold the WT position here in my field ministry. Without being sucked into yet another "Trinitarian" debate, I could uphold WT/JW Theology with honour.
Would a JW Apologist now stand up and be counted: Why, oh Why has the latest NWT translation removed the Parenthesis and accepted the word "other" as part of the official text?
I accuse the Quorum of the LDS and the GB of JWs with the same fundamental dishonesty. We are all well aware of the curse upon those that alter/add/delete the wording of Scripture.
Salt Lake City AND Brooklyn. SHAME ON YOU!!!
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

Why, oh Why has the latest NWT translation removed the Parenthesis and accepted the word "other" as part of the official text?
At least when it comes to the Bible, we can read the original text in the Nestle Aland or similar work and argue amongst ourselves if the interpolation is warranted.
 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

It isn't the force of argument I am questioning TD... It is the dishonesty of translation/translitteration... adding something that is plainly not there... to bolster individual interpretation.
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

It isn't the force of argument I am questioning TD... It is the dishonesty of translation/translitteration... adding something that is plainly not there... to bolster individual interpretation.
My point was that with the BOM you either accept it or you don't. It's impossible to have much of a discussion over its translation like we do with the Bible and other Ancient Greek works.
 
barry
barry 2 years ago

The LDS church is a cult.
The LDS invited me to their church a while ago. The missionarys told me there was a great apostacy in the early church and expected me to believe a glib statement such as this. If there was an apostacy when did it occur . Was it after Jesus left for heaven, was it after or before the complete bible was decided and the trinity doctrine was decided in about 370ad [the mormons don't believe in the trinity]., or when it was when the roman church reached its full power and influence? Or was it at just the time that LSD apologists happen to dissagree with the church fathers.
The missionarys asked me to kneel down and pray that that I would accept Joseph as the prophet of god sort of like the Muslims accepting their prophet . It should be noted there have allways been people claiming to have the gift of prophesy in the christian church from the earliest times to now. I recall at the time of Ireaneous prophets were numerous. Barry
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Podobear,
"Can any Mormon or exJW explain the following for me, please: "For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen" 3 Nephi 13:13 B.O.M and Matthew 6:13 KJV"
The entire chapter of Matthew 6, with few differences, is copied from the King Jame Version of 1611 and presented in the Book of Mormon as 3 Nephi 13. This is presented as Jesus repeating his message to Native Americans.
These 13 words, called a doxology, were a later addition to the Bible, hence modern translations do not include them. Some believe much of the Book of Mormon is based on unpublished manuscripts for another author, Solomon Spalding. Whatever the case might be, we would say Smith or Spalding likely did not know this portion of the Lord's prayer was not originally in the Bible. Of the doxology Wikipedia says this:
The doxology associated with the Lord's Prayer is found in four Vetus Latina manuscripts, only two of which give it in its entirety. The other surviving manuscripts of the Vetus Latina Gospels do not have the doxology. The Vulgate translation also does not include it, thus agreeing with critical editions of the Greek text.
Thus this extra piece of text from 1611 KJV gets copied into the Book of Mormon produced in the 1830s.
The odd thing is a few words are dropped from the Lord's prayer in 3 Nephi 13, such as:
"Thy kingdom come" verse 10
"Give us this day our daily bread" verse 11.
If you're thinking bread doesn't fit the setting of 3 Nephi 13, that ideas falls, because the next chapter, 3 Nephi 14, is a copy of Matthew 7, where the word bread appears in verse 9 of both copies.
"Did the translators of the court of King James copy over the same words from the B.O.M?"
How the King James Version was produced from 1604 to 1611 is well known. It would of course be impossible for them to reference the Book of Mormon since it would not exist for another 219 years.
"is the B.O.M merely a plagiarization of the King James Bible?"
In large sections it obviously is. The hard work of the KJV translators is passed off as the result of translating gold plates recorded in a mysterious unknown language. If copyright laws extended across centuries this would likely not be tolerated. As it is, the KJV text is in the public domain.
Yet, this doesn't mean the KJV text is always copied verbatim in the Book of Mormon. To be sure, large sections are, but the Book of Mormon does include changes to the text. Alas, the results are often not for the better.
3 Nephi 13:30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, *even so will* he [[]]
clothe you, *if* ye *are not* of little faith.
vs
Matthew 6:30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more
clothe you, O ye of little faith?
So what Jesus should we believe? The one of Matthew who acknowledges we are of "little faith" or the Nephi Jesus who says the opposite?
Cheers,
-Randy
ps. Here is the full text of Matthew 6 and 3 Nephi 13. I've used brackets and asterisks to highlight differences.
===
Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be
seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is
in heaven.
Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet
before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the
streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward.
Matthew 6:3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy
right hand doeth:
Matthew 6:4
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in
secret himself shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners
of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto
you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 6:8
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth
what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:11, 12
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you:
Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your
Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:16
Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad
countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear
unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:17
But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy
face;
Matthew 6:18
That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father
which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall
reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:19
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither
moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break
through nor steal:
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be
single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of
darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness,
how great is that darkness!
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise
the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 6:25
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye
shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye
shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than
raiment?
Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do
they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth
them. Are ye not much better than they?
Matthew 6:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his
stature?
Matthew 6:28
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of
the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Matthew 6:29
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory
was not arrayed like one of these.
Matthew 6:30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more
clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Matthew 6:31
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or,
What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Matthew 6:32
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:smile:
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all
these things.
Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you.
Matthew 6:34
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow
shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the
day is the evil thereof.
====
3 Nephi 13:1
[[Verily, verily, I say that I would that ye should do alms unto
the poor; but]] take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be
seen of them; otherwise ye have no reward of your Father who is
in heaven.
3 Nephi 13:2
Therefore, when *ye shall do your* alms do not sound a trumpet
before *you*, as *will* hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the
streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you,
*they* have their reward.
3 Nephi 13:3
But when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy
right hand doeth;
3 Nephi 13:4
That thine alms may be in secret; and thy Father *who* seeth in
secret, himself shall reward thee openly.
3 Nephi 13:5
And when thou prayest thou shalt not *do* as the hypocrites[[]], for
they love to pray, standing in the synagogues and in the corners
of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto
you, *they* have their reward.
3 Nephi 13:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father *who* is in secret; and
thy Father, *who* seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
3 Nephi 13:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [[]],
for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
3 Nephi 13:8
Be not ye therefore like unto them, for your Father knoweth
what things ye have need of before ye ask him.
3 Nephi 13:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father *who* art in
heaven, hallowed be thy name.
3 Nephi 13:10
[[]] Thy will be done *on* earth as it is in heaven.
3 Nephi 13:11
[[]]
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
3 Nephi 13:12, 13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
forever. Amen.
3 Nephi 13:14
For, if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father
will also forgive you;
3 Nephi 13:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your
Father forgive your trespasses.
3 Nephi 13:16
Moreover, when ye fast be not as the hypocrites, of a sad
countenance, for they disfigure their faces that they may appear
unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.
3 Nephi 13:17
But thou, when thou fastest, anoint *thy* head, and wash thy
face;
3 Nephi 13:18
That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father,
*who* is in secret; and thy Father, *who* seeth in secret, shall
reward thee openly.
3 Nephi 13:19
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and thieves break through and steal;
3 Nephi 13:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither
moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break
through nor steal.
3 Nephi 13:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
3 Nephi 13:22
The light of the body is the eye; if, therefore, thine eye be
single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
3 Nephi 13:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of
darkness. If, therefore, the light that is in thee be darkness,
how great is that darkness!
3 Nephi 13:24
No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one
and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise
the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.
3 Nephi 13:25
[[And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these
words he looked upon the twelve whom he had chosen, and said unto
them: Remember the words which I have spoken. For behold, ye are
they whom I have chosen to minister unto this people.]]
Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what ye
shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye
shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than
raiment?
3 Nephi 13:26
Behold the fowls of the air, for they sow not, neither do
they reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth
them. Are ye not much better than they?
3 Nephi 13:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his
stature?
3 Nephi 13:28
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of
the field how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin;
3 Nephi 13:29
And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon, in all his glory,
was not arrayed like one of these.
3 Nephi 13:30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, *even so will* he [[]]
clothe you, *if* ye *are not* of little faith.
3 Nephi 13:31
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or,
What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
3 Nephi 13:32
[[]]
For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all
these things.
3 Nephi 13:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,
and all these things shall be added unto you.
3 Nephi 13:34
Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow
shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient *is* the
day *unto* the evil thereof.
===
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Qcmbr,
"When I believed I couldn't understand the relevance of no outside scholars agreeing with BoM historical claims. It was this huge gaping blind spot in my thinking that stopped me realising the obvious. If Cold can stop and think about why no one else in the world of science , history , Egyptology or archaeology agrees with any core Mormon assertions it will hopefully break this mental block. It amazes me how powerful and blinding belief makes us. The constant reliance on faith over rational logic in an evolutionary world still gives me pause to think about what evolutionary advantage faith must give."
One of the things that keeps me posting on this thread, is the debt of gratitude I feel towards Ex-Mormon's. As a Witness with early access to the Internet I could not bring myself to directly read material strongly critical of our faith or the writings of former members. Instead, I read exit stories of former LDS members. I also posted on the Usenet group alt.religion.mormon. There was a Usenet group for Jehovah's Witnesses too, but I avoided that. At first I would shake my head at just how obviously silly many of the claims of the Book of Mormon appeared to be to me. How in the world, can you believe these claims, surely all it would take is a side-by-side comparison of the KJV with the Book of Mormon to see these sections were an obvious copy? One LDS member sent my a chapter of a book from Hugh Nibley that attempts to explain this issue. I did considerable work to give a response. Alas, my response was dismissed, with a few polite words.
Then I started to read more of the exit stories. It was then that I realized LDS members really, truly believed in their faith with no less conviction than I had as a Witness. The problem with these claims is one simply cannot not evaluate claims of their faith the same way as other information. Since both faiths largely define the world we lived in, there is an important emotional need to find the claims of the faith true. Conversely finding the claims of critics deficient is also emotionally important. I have come to view this as the two ruler rule.
If one is make a choice between one claim or the other and there is no emotional investment in the outcome we can use a fixed ruler. But in evaluating faith claims, we tend to pull out the elastic ruler and stretch it as far as needed until the claim fits, or comments of a critic can be rejected.
The next thing I discovered, is when it comes to faith we tend to be a bit loose with our language. Some statements are factual and should be dumped into that box without much debate. Saying the KJV is an English Bible Translation produced in 1611 is a simple fact. However, other statements are merely faith claims. There are not facts and shouldn't be treated as such. But when we get in the habit co-mingling the two it can get confusing. Here is an example of Cold Steel's post...
And despite your reservations about the translation process, the general authorities of the LDS church continue to tell us that the Book of Mormon is the most accurately translated book on Earth
Calling the Book of Mormon a "translation" is a faith claim. Using the phrase "the translation process", assumes a truth, that is not in evidence. Adding the qualifer "most accurate" deepens the confusion. If we restrict ourselves to verifiable evidence, all we can say is manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, in English, dates back to the 1830s.
This fact vs faith claim lack-of-rigor is rife with religious settings. Articulate speakers talk as if Noah or Abraham really existed in the same manner as known facts from history. This winds up being a sort of social conditioning, wherein we speak of Nephi doing this, in the time of Peleg that, without perhaps stopping and asking, how exactly do I know this is factual?
Btw- I believe the evolutionary advantage is tied up in imagination, self-denial, later reward and the advantage of obedience.
Cheers,
-Randy
 
Earnest
Earnest 2 years ago

Podobear : Why, oh Why has the latest NWT translation removed the Parenthesis and accepted the word "other" as part of the official text?
This rather digresses from this thread but is worthwhile discussing in a thread of its own. Essentially all translation of the Bible or any (other) large work changes the text as that is the nature of translation. The difference between the 2013 NWT text and those translations prior to it is the difference between dynamic and formal equivalence. Both are recognised methods of translation.
 
Podobear
Podobear 2 years ago

Thank you Earnest: So why insert a word, which did not appear in the original text, in parentheses in the first place? I agree that this point is worthy of another thread. However, in line with the theme of this thread: I would never consider joining the LDS church, because of such Plaigiarism and dishonesty, any more than I would consider now going back to WT teaching for its dishonesty in such matters.
How far can a religion go in such critical exegesis, to establish its own particular doctrine?
 
digderidoo
digderidoo 2 years ago

A friend of mine left the Mormons, some of the similarities were astounding, we often compared our upbringing. He now has gone back to them, seems happy enough, though I'm guessing his pull to go back was much the same as some ex jws.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Digderrido: A friend of mine left the Mormons, some of the similarities were astounding, we often compared our upbringing. He now has gone back to them, seems happy enough, though I'm guessing his pull to go back was much the same as some ex jws.
The big difference is that the LDS have considerable evidence to back their claims. Yes, things aren't perfect, but the Jehovah's Witnesses have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of their claimed divine calling.

Rawe: These 13 words, called a doxology, were a later addition to the Bible, hence modern translations do not include them. Some believe much of the Book of Mormon is based on unpublished manuscripts for another author, Solomon Spalding. Whatever the case might be, we would say Smith or Spalding likely did not know this portion of the Lord's prayer was not originally in the Bible.
According to the late-LDS apologist Hugh Nibley, our greatest scholar:

The most significant example of this freedom of composition is certainly the Lord's Prayer. "Originally," wrote Jeremias, "the doxology, 'For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever,' was absent," yet it is found in the oldest church order, the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles." Has someone taken liberties with the sacred canon, then? No, "the absence of the doxology from the original text," Jeremias explains, "does not mean that Jesus intended his prayer to be recited without a word of praise at the end. But in the very earliest times, the doxology had no fixed form and its precise wording was left to those who prayed." Only "later on...it was felt necessary to establish the doxology in a fixed form," which explains why the prayer has different forms in Matthew 6:13and Luke 11:4. Also, the older Aramaic form of the prayer required forgive "our debts," which the Greek of Luke changes to forgive "our sins" vindicates both the inclusion of the doxology in the Lord's prayer in 3 Nephi 13:9-13 and the reading there of "debts" instead of "sins." [Source]
Also, another scholar notes:

Most manuscripts, although not the earliest ones, include at the end the triadic doxology, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." This phrase (which is an excerpt from I Chronicles 29:11-13) is a plausible conclusion for the prayer: it recognizes the preeminence of God, and our total dependence upon him; it is a reminder that he is the loving King, and we the servants; and it explains why it is to him that we pray. [Source]
I’ve read sample s of Spalding’s writings and the Book of Mormon was not written by Spalding. The Book of Mormon contains numerous Hebraisms which point its ancient middle-eastern origins. These are found in none of Spalding’s known writings, nor do they appear in some of the early books you proffered. One of the more fascinating of these is chiasmus (a mirror image type construct found in detail in biblical writings). After attending a lecture on biblical chiasmus as a missionary, John Welch, now a professor of law at BYU, began looking for it in the Book of Mormon. Although many anti-Mormons say chiasmus is little more than boring repetition, Welch and numerous Bible and Book of Mormon understand and value this literary structure for its aesthetics and its power to communicate at multiple levels simultaneously.
At the time the Book of Mormon was published, no living scholar knew about chiasmus, or knew that any book claiming ancient Hebrew origins contained examples of this literary device. It was only later in the nineteenth century that Biblical chiasmus was fully recognized and described to the scholarly world. [Source]
Welch later noted:

I had long appreciated and valued the Book of Mormon, but it was not until I began to see it speaking for itself before sophisticated audiences, especially in connection with such things as chiasmus and law in the Book of Mormon, that I began to sense the high level of respect that the book really can command. On many grounds, the Book of Mormon is intellectually respectable. The more I learn about the Book of Mormon, the more amazed I become at its precision, consistency, validity, vitality, insightfulness, and purposefulness. I believe that the flow of additional evidence nourishes and enlarges faith.
Those who seek to implicate Sidney Rigdon also tend to be ignorant of Rigdon’s background as co-founder of the Campbellite movement. Alexander Campbell was furious at Rigdon for leaving his religious movement for Smith’s, and though he scourged Smith at every opportunity in print, he never impugned Rigdon’s integrity. Rigdon’s motives for joining the saints was simply that despite Campbell’s great understanding of the scriptures, he could not honestly claim any means of divine authority. Others leaning towards Campbell at the time also joined the saints for the same reason. It thus stands to reason that Rigdon’s motives for joining Smith were honest. It doesn’t follow, then, that he would join Smith, then conspire in writing a fictitious book of scripture and pawning it off to the public.
There are simply too many things Smith, Rigdon, Spalding and anyone else at that time couldn’t have known. And regardless of how compelling the evidence, ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons will never admit one shred of it. On the other hands, we LDS readily concede there are issues with the Book of Mormon and the book of Abraham, we at least have people researching them constantly. And these are professors of ancient scripture, anthropologists, archeologists, historians, journalists...and even a professor of Islamic History who, by the way, is working with leading Muslim scholars in collecting and translating old and neglected works that have heretofore been unavailable to the entire Islamic community.
I personally think there’s extremely compelling evidence for the Book of Mormon. In 1940, the Mayans were the oldest culture in Mesoamerica, which is where most LDS scholars believe the Book of Mormon events took place. This was a problem since the Book of Mormon speaks of two ancient civilizations. That was a problem. There was a Jaredite civilization that came from the great tower when the Lord confounded the languages. They would have dated from about 2500 – 300 B.C. Why was there no evidence of them?
In 1941, archeologists in Mesoamerica announced they had found an earlier culture that were much older than the Mayans. They called them the Olmecs, and they inhabited Mesoamerica between 2500 – 300 B.C. It cost the church a fortune to pay off those archeologists to invent the Olmecs civilization and where did it get us? The fact that the Mayans dated from 600 B.C. to 380 A.D. (the same time as the Nephites in the Book of Mormon) also didn’t buy us any credibility. Up until fairly recently, people stuck the Book of Mormon in my face and wanted to know where that canyon and “river of water” were in Arabia, and where that lush Garden of Eden-like “Bountiful” was in the burning desert of the Quarter. I could only tell them I had no idea. Then, beginning in the mid-1990s, they found it all. The canyon, the river of water, Bountiful, the trail Lehi took...they even found Nahom. Did the ex-Mo or anti-Mo community give us even a nod? We should live so long! Now they’ve found horses in Mesoamerica. Again, silence from our enemies. Oh, and we’ve found the barley, the wheels, gold plates and other stuff. So while it exists, we can’t force people to read it, study it or acknowledge it. Instead, I keep reading their crap about there being no evidence.
Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon
The Authorship of the Book of Mormon
Hisses from the Dust: The Gold Plates and the Recovery of Sacred Records
The Sermon at the Temple and the Greek New Testament Manuscripts
.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


barry: The LDS invited me to their church a while ago. The missionarys told me there was a great apostacy in the early church and expected me to believe a glib statement such as this. If there was an apostacy when did it occur . Was it after Jesus left for heaven, was it after or before the complete bible was decided and the trinity doctrine was decided....
What they should have told you is that the great apostasy happened at the time the last person holding the keys of the kingdom passed from the scene and there were no more apostles. If you're looking for a specific date, no one pretends to know that. Only God. Whether you believe it or not is totally up to you. I guess it happened between the time John wrote his Apocalypse and the time all the bishops and cardinals began wearing gaudy outfits and living off the people. It also happened when revelation ceased. So perhaps it was a process.
As for being asked to pray about things you don't know, see James 1:5-8 (below). To hear anti-Mormons talk about prayer you'd think Jim Jones was going to follow things up with some Kool-Aid! Okay, if you aren't interested in Joseph Smith, or whether he was a prophet, by all means, don't pray. Don't do it and then whine about it. If you leave God alone, he'll leave you alone. It's pretty fair, isn't it?

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.  -James 1:5-8
.
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 years ago

The only evidence you have is the work of the con artist and charlatan that got your cult started.
You could have saved yourself ages typing your cult drivel and just said that.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
Thanks for responding.
"I’ve read sample s of Spalding’s writings and the Book of Mormon was not written by Spalding"
I have not. This bit of the story doesn't interest me that much. I mentioned it, as per my own determination to be complete in my comments. Thus to say "Joseph Smith didn't know this bit about the Lord's Prayer", may not be the complete picture, if in fact, the original source material had been the work of Solomon Spalding, as some folks beieve. Nonetheless, it is to your credit, that you investigated this claim.
I don't have time for a detailed response right now. My prior post mentioned the paragraph where you made a number of claims about the Book of Mormon. If you wouldn't mind selecting one of the claims, perhaps the one you find most compelling, when I get the time, I'll case it down and respond. The general theme of your claims was statements in the Book of Mormon that could not be known to Joseph Smith. Naturally any future event if specified in specific detail would qualify. Any past event, if specified in specific detail, and generally not known at the time but only re-discovered in our day would qualify.
Keep in mind, I hold the same view in regards "divine origin" claims for any material, not just the Book of Mormon.
Cheers,
-Randy
ps. You quoted James who tells us we should satisfy our lack of wisdom via prayer, then having no doubts. That idea, many an Ex-JW, will tell you, trapped them for years, as they kept assuming their doubts were a bad thing. In fact, much better to respond to doubts and lack of wisdom through objective research.
 
TD
TD 2 years ago

So why insert a word, which did not appear in the original text, in parentheses in the first place?
Because Ancient Greek is not English?
Seriously, we're talking about a languague with a sentence and grammatical structure very, very different than our own. Ancient Greek was very highly inflected. What that means is that word endings change depending on how they are used in a sentence.
This happens in English with verb conjugations (e.g. drink, drinks, drank, drinking, drunk) to some extent, but in Ancient Greek, it affects everything. For example, in English, we have lots of prepositions that link nouns and pronouns in time and space. In my generation, we were forced to memorize a long list of them: "About, above, across, after, against, along, among, around, at, before, behind, below beneath, beside, besides, between, beyond, by, -- yada, yada, yada...."
Ancient Greek needed much less prepositions because prepositional functions are often subsumed by the noun case (i.e The declension) So when you translate to English, you often find yourself inserting English prepositions that strictly speaking, are not in the original text, but are understood from it.
Simplest example I can think of:
ο οικος του αποστολου
A hyper-literal, "Translate with a dictionary" approach would give you:
"The house the apostle"
A correct translation would be:
"The house [of] the apostle
In English, we often indicate possession with the preposition, "Of" but that was not necessary in Greek, because that idea is subsumed by the genitive noun case. (Note the ου ending of the last two words in the sentence..)
Interpolations like this one are so basic that nobody would question them, so they aren't bracketed. But they are everywhere in any English translation. If everything were bracketed, at least a quarter of the text would be in brackets.
It was considered (At least in years gone by) to be good translation practice, not to mention common courtesy to the reader to bracket interpolations that fell into the category of 'judgement calls." This would alert the reader to check other translations to see what renderings other translators came up with.
But there are so many modern editions of the Bible that don't bracket anything anymore, that it has become fashionable for evangelical types (Especially on the internet) to criticize not just what's in the brackets but to criticize the brackets themselves, which is simply ignorant.
Brackets certainly do not automatically equal 'mistranslation.'
I'm a little disappointed that the JW's caved in on this, because some of the interpolations in the NWT are probably more a matter of doctrine and definitely should be bracketed.
 
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 2 years ago


Randy: If you wouldn't mind selecting one of the claims, perhaps the one you find most compelling, when I get the time, I'll case it down and respond. The general theme of your claims was statements in the Book of Mormon that could not be known to Joseph Smith. Naturally any future event if specified in specific detail would qualify. Any past event, if specified in specific detail, and generally not known at the time but only re-discovered in our day would qualify.
Okay, that sounds reasonable. The greatest demonstrable point would be old world geography. This includes evidence for the first book of Nephi, so you don't have to read a great deal of the Book of Mormon. But first we'd have to agree that if someone were going to write a fictional account about an area of the world and a historic period in which very little was known (even amongst scholars) regarding the middle-eastern area, including the deserts of Arabia, the established trails and culture, writing directions that anyone with Nephi's account, a compass and a means of desert travel could follow, then having every detail of the entire journey check out with Ø errors -- that that would be an impossible achievement, even with the best maps of the day.
Just one more point. At the time Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, it's amazing to me that not one record on metal plates had ever been found, anywhere. Today, we have gold plates, silver plates, copper plates and others (mostly gold) from both the old world and the new world. And wrting on gold plates was a practice that just seemed to be starting at around 600 B.C.
So I'll PM you with some of the places you can begin your investigation.
 .
 
Separation of Powers
Separation of Powers 2 years ago

A great organization made up of some intelligent people that realized the importance of marketing.
Personally, I have an issue with the magic undies, the ties to Solomon Spalding, the modern day prophet and apostolic succession, the golden tablets and Urim and Thummin that disappeared, the many wives thing, the change in basic doctrines, and the Osmonds...

SOP
 
shadow
shadow 2 years ago

http://mit.irr.org/book-of-mormon-archaeology-condensed

The Scientific Search for Nephite Remains
By: Luke P. Wilson Copyright © 1992 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved.

This is the shortened version of this articles. You can also read the full version.





Like the Bible, the Book of Mormon presents itself as an historical record of God's revelation of Himself to the human race. Both books tell of Jesus Christ and various prophets appearing to what are presented as real people living at specific times and places in human history. These historical claims have sent scholars in search of archaeological evidence for the existence of the peoples and events described in the Book of Mormon, and they make the subject of Book of Mormon archaeology relevant.
 Of course there are limits to what archaeology can investigate. It is not suited to proving or disproving the supernatural claims or spiritual truths of the Book of Mormon. However, by searching for evidence of the civilizations described in the Book of Mormon, archaeology can help us evaluate the underlying historical credibility of this scriptural record. Evidence regarding the historical claims of Book of Mormon may well have a bearing on our confidence in its spiritual message.
Geographical Considerations
The Book of Mormon describes the world of its inhabitants as an hourglass-shaped land mass made up of a "land southward" surrounded by water except for a "narrow neck" of land connecting it to a "land northward" (Alma 22:32). Determining the location of these lands is the necessary first step before archaeology can be employed to evaluate the Book of Mormon, as LDS scholars acknowledge.1
 One might expect that determining the geographical setting of the Book of Mormon lands would be a fairly simple undertaking. Instead, the topic has become a matter of considerable controversy in which the theories of modern Mormon scholars are pitted against the traditional teaching of the LDS Church.
Map 1: Two Views of BoM GeographyThe Traditional View
According to Joseph Smith and subsequent presidents and apostles of the LDS Church, the geographical extent of Book of Mormon lands included virtually all of North and South America.2 Joseph Smith identified the coast of Chile as the place where Lehi's party arrived in the New World,3 while he located the Hill Cumorah, site of the epic Nephite-Lamanite battle to extinction, some 6000 miles north in Palmyra, New York. Thus, North and South America were understood to constitute the two bulges of the hourglass, connected by the "narrow neck" of Central America.4
 Joseph Smith also taught that the American Indians were the descendants of the Lamanites. The History of the Church records an incident from June 1834 in which he identified, by divine guidance, a skeleton found in an Indian burial mound in Illinois as that of the Lamanite warrior Zelph:

... the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph ... who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains.5
The LDS Church continues to teach that Native Americans are the direct descendents of Book of Mormon peoples. For example, the "Introduction" in current editions of the Book of Mormon (since 1981), describes the Lamanites as, "the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
Why LDS Scholars Object
Despite the teaching of the Church's spiritual leaders, unquestioned for a hundred years, a number of Mormon scholars have concluded that the traditional view of Book of Mormon geography is unrealistic. Their conclusions are based on a number of major problems that arise when one attempts to apply Book of Mormon descriptions of travel times and population growth to the vast territories of North and South America. For instance, while the Book of Mormon makes it clear that the rival Nephite and Lamanite civilizations were centered near the "narrow neck" of land (understood to be somewhere in Central America), it says that they agreed to meet for their epic final battle at the "Hill Cumorah" (Mormon 6:1-6). Joseph Smith and Mormon tradition locate this site several thousand miles distant in New York state. It is difficult to find a reasonable explanation for why the armies would travel this immense distance to do battle.
 Another significant problem for traditional Book of Mormon geography involves the premise that the native populations of the vast North and South American continents are the descendents of two tiny groups of transoceanic Semitic immigrants (the Jaredites, who arrived in the New World between 3000 - 2000 B.C. but later battled themselves to extinction, and the Nephites and Mulekites, who arrived beginning about 600 B.C.). Archaeological evidence shows conclusively that the western hemisphere was populated at least as far back as 10,000 B.C. by east Asian peoples who migrated across the Bering Strait. It is these Mongolian peoples who are the ancestors of the American Indians, according to the Smithsonian Institution:

The American Indians are physically Mongoloids and thus must have originated in eastern Asia. The differences in appearance of the various New World tribes in recent times are due to (1) the initial variability of their Asian ancestors; (2) adaptations over several millennia to varied New World environments; and (3) different degrees of interbreeding in post-Columbian times with people of European and African origins."6
There is no solid evidence for immigration via other routes involving long sea voyages (prior to the Norse arrivals from Greenland and Newfoundland about A.D. 1000), as proposed by the Book of Mormon, and if such voyages did occur, they were not significant for the origins and composition of New World populations.7
Map 2: Suggested locations for BoM PlacesThe Limited Geography Theory
In order to remove these inherent improbabilities and protect the credibility of the Book of Mormon as authentic history, a number of LDS scholars have proposed a new approach to Book of Mormon geography called the "limited geography theory." The most influential proponent of this view is Prof. John L. Sorenson of Brigham Young University. Sorenson restricts the Book of Mormon setting to an approximately 400-mile-long section of Central America, with the Isthmus of Tehuantepec in southern Mexico corresponding to the "narrow neck" of the hourglass-shaped land mass described above.8
 While the limited geography theory appears to resolve some of the flaws of traditional Book of Mormon geography, it creates other problems that are equally serious. It conflicts with details in the Book of Mormon, contradicts the teaching of a long line of LDS presidents and apostles, and in the end cannot produce a single piece of archaeological evidence that can be identified as Nephite or Jaredite (a fact which BYU professors such as Hugh Nibley, Bruce W. Warren, and David J. Johnson all acknowledge).9
Two Cumorahs?
One area of major contradiction between the limited geography theory and the Book of Mormon concerns the identity and location of the hill Cumorah. Sorenson locates Cumorah in Central America, at a site only 90 miles from the "narrow neck". While this removes an unrealistic requirement of the traditional view, which has the two armies marching thousands of miles north to do battle at what is now Palmyra, New York, it conflicts with the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah as "an exceeding great distance" from the narrow neck into the "land northward" (Helaman 3:3,4). If the Isthmus of Tehuantepec — Sorenson's "narrow neck" of land — at 120 miles across is "narrow," how can the 90 miles from the "narrow neck" to Sorenson's Cumorah fit the Book of Mormon description of "an exceeding great distance"?10
 The limited geography theory also seems to be at odds with the Book of Mormon by requiring two Cumorahs. This is necessary since it locates the final Nephite-Lamanite battle at a Cumorah in Central America, whereas Joseph Smith retrieved the Book of Mormon plates from the traditional hill Cumorah in New York State. This also leaves Moroni with the task of single-handedly transporting the hefty Book of Mormon plates (not to mention the entire Nephite library) over two thousand miles to the New York Cumorah.
Directional Skewing
Another major discrepancy of the limited geography theory is the 45 degree directional skewing that results when the geographic features of the Book of Mormon are superimposed onto the proposed Central American site. Map 2 illustrates the problem. It shows that the Book of Mormon's "land northward" and "land southward" are actually oriented along a northwest-southeast line. This places the "east sea" and "west sea" almost directly north and south of these proposed Book of Mormon lands. It is clear from the Bible that the ancient Israelites used the rising sun as the basis for directional orientation (e.g., Exodus 27:13; 38:13; Numbers 2:3; Ezekiel 8:16). Therefore, one must ask, "Would Hebrew immigrants arriving at the proposed Central American site and using the sun as their directional reference, have arrived at the severely skewed directional orientation suggested by Sorenson?"
 Still another conflict is the absence of the "sea north" and the "sea south" (Helaman 3:8). In the traditional view, these descriptions correspond to the Atlantic Ocean below the tip of the South America (Cape Horn), and the Arctic Ocean north of North America, respectively. Editions of the Book of Mormon from 1888 to 1921 included a note to this effect at Helaman 3:8-9. Because of these conflicts with Mormon tradition and Book of Mormon internal evidence, the limited geography theory has been repeatedly condemned by LDS leaders, including Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. (10th President), Harold B. Lee (11th President), and Bruce R. McConkie.11 In 1979 the Church News labeled it "harmful" and a "challenge" to the "words of the prophets concerning the place where Moroni buried the records."12
 Book of Mormon geography raises a theological dilemma: on the one hand, the traditional view produces a number of improbabilities that undermine the historical credibility of the Book of Mormon; on the other hand, the limited geography approach rejects the clear pronouncements of Joseph Smith and subsequent presidents and apostles, and conflicts with Book of Mormon teaching on a number of important points.
An LDS Archaeologist's Conclusion
As was noted earlier, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are alike in presenting themselves as records of ancient history. However, whereas the authenticity of the Bible is widely accepted even by secular scholars (see article titled "Does Archaeology Support the Bible?"), no non-LDS archaeologist accepts the Book of Mormon as authentic history, and now even many LDS scholars no longer support its historicity.13 Why do archaeologist take such a dim view of the Book of Mormon?
 One of the best answers to this question was offered by former Brigham Young University anthropology professor, Dr. Raymond T. Matheny at an August 25, 1984 Sunstone conference in Salt Lake City.14 After working in the area of Mesoamerican archaeology for twenty-two years, Prof. Matheny reported his conclusion that the scientific evidence simply does not support the existence of the peoples and events chronicled in the Book of Mormon, be it in Central America or anywhere else in the western hemisphere.
 Dr. Matheny described the Book of Mormon as filled with anachronisms — things that are out of place historically and culturally. It introduces Old World cultural achievements into the pre-Columbian Americas, though the archaeological evidence shows no such levels of culture were attained during this period. Defenders of the historicity of the Book of Mormon are left with only scattered bits of evidence which they interpret apart from accepted scientific standards. The following are among the more significant Book of Mormon anachronisms described by Prof. Matheny:
An Iron Industry. Nephite civilization is depicted as having iron and other metal industries; we read of metal swords and breastplates, gold and silver coinage, and even machinery. However, according to Matheny, there is no evidence that any Mesoamerican civilization attained such an industry during Book of Mormon times (terminus ad quo: A.D. 421). He pointed out that an iron industry is not a simple feat involving a few people, but a complex process that requires a specialized socio-economic context and leaves virtually indestructible archaeological evidence. However, Matheny reports that:

No evidence has been found in the new world for a ferrous metallurgical industry dating to pre-Columbian times. And so this is a king-size kind of problem, it seems to me, for so-called Book of Mormon archeology. The evidence is absent.15
Prof. Matheny noted that while scattered iron artifacts have been found in pre-Columbian settings, in the absence of evidence of a metallurgical industry, they must be accounted for by random means, such as meteorites. A few random, scattered artifacts are not a basis for scientific conclusions.16
Old World Agricultural Products. The Book of Mormon depicts the Nephites as producing wheat, barley, flax (linen), grapes, and olives, but none of these products existed in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica. As with iron, Matheny pointed out that a complex economic and so- cial level is required to produce these products as they are portrayed in the Book of Mormon:

There's a whole system of production of wheat and barley ... It's a specialized production of food. You have to know something to make flax [the source of linen], and especially in tropical climates. Grapes and olives ... all these are cultures that are highly developed and amount to systems, and so the Book of Mormon is saying that these systems existed here.17
Matheny noted that a 1983 Science magazine article describing barley found in a pre-Columbian setting is wrongly claimed as support for the Book of Mormon because the grain described was not a domesticated old world barley.18
Old World Domestic Animals. Another whole group of anachronisms involve various old world domesticated animals which the Book of Mormon describes as integral to Nephite culture. These include asses, cows, goats, sheep, horses, oxen, swine, and elephants. Here again, Matheny pointed out that these domesticated animals are each specializations that require a specific cultural level not attained in the pre-Columbian Americas:

You don't just have a cow or a goat or a horse as an esoteric pet or something. There is a system of raising these things, and the picture that is painted for me as I read this, and others too, is that we have [in Book of Mormon portrayals] ... domestic animals and so forth in the New World.19
Is it valid to claim, as some defenders of the historicity of the Book of Mormon do, that these names — cow, horse, etc. — are simply being used as substitutes for native New World animals such as peccaries or tape deer? Matheny argues that this is not legitimate because the Book of Mormon descriptions occur in specific literary contexts that assume complex old world systems for the raising and use of the various domestic animals:

I mean in Alma there [18:10; 20:6,8] , you know he's using the stable there preparing the horses for King Lamoni, and also he's preparing the King's chariots because they're going to take a trip from one city to another over the royal highway. And also the horses are pastured, no less. So there are contexts within the Book of Mormon itself. These are not just substitutions, it seems to me, but the authors of the Book of Mormon there are providing the context, they're not trying to describe a tape deer or something else, it seems to me. This is a weak way to try to explain the presence of these names in the Book of Mormon.20
No Place In The New World
Matheny's overall assessment is that archaeology offers no support for the Book of Mormon as history: "I would say in evaluating the Book of Mormon that it has no place in the New World whatsoever."
Prof. Matheny is not alone in this assessment. The highly respected Mesoamerican archaeologist Michael Coe has written:

The bare facts of the matter are that nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon, as claimed by Joseph Smith, is a historical document relating to the history of early immigrants to our hemisphere.21
This article began by acknowledging that archaeology cannot directly prove or disprove the spiritual claims of the Book of Mormon or the Bible. However, it can evaluate the historical claims which both books make, and that evaluation shows that while the Bible's claim to be authentic history is supported by objective evidence click for article on the Bible and archaeology, the same cannot be said for the Book of Mormon.
 
rawe
rawe 2 years ago

Hi Cold Steel,
"Okay, that sounds reasonable. The greatest demonstrable point would be old world geography. This includes evidence for the first book of Nephi, so you don't have to read a great deal of the Book of Mormon. But first we'd have to agree that if someone were going to write a fictional account about an area of the world and a historic period in which very little was known (even amongst scholars) regarding the middle-eastern area, including the deserts of Arabia, the established trails and culture, writing directions that anyone with Nephi's account, a compass and a means of desert travel could follow, then having every detail of the entire journey check out with Ø errors -- that that would be an impossible achievement, even with the best maps of the day."
Okay. It has been awhile, since I've read the Book of Mormon, but I'll start at 1 Nephi and make some comments as I go along. In general one the first things that strike a skeptical reader is the author of the Book of Mormon is anxious to get his character out of middle east and over to the Americas. Leaving them in the middle east wouldn't be a great idea, for a couple reasons. First, the writer would be bound to wind up creating conflicts in the account with the Bible. Second the whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to create a story about happenings in the Americas.
1 Nephi 2:8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.
As far as I'm aware no rivers empty in the Red Sea, either today or in the time setting for the Book fo Mormon. Please provide references to correct me on this.
If the Book of Mormon is a product of the 1830s, one of the things you would expect is characters in the Book of Mormon would know about Bible characters, but the opposite would be impossible. Indeed that is just what you find. For example...
1 Nephi 7:14 For behold, the a Spirit of the Lord b ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have c rejected the prophets, and d Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the e life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land
Mentions specific detail about Jeremiah, which of course would not be difficult. Yet, God works a miracle for Lehi here too...
1 Nephi 7:18 And it came to pass that when I had said these words, behold, the bands were loosed from off my hands and feet, and I stood before my brethren, and I spake unto them again.
Yet, the character of Lehi, although getting the attention of God in this way, doesn't seem to result in any mention in the Bible.
1 Nephi 8:8 And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the Lord that he would have a mercy on me, according to the multitude of his tender mercies.
A Hebrew charachter speaking in the first person using the word "hours" is very odd. You won't find OT characters doing that.
1 Nephi 11:13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of a Nazareth I beheld a b virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
A reference to "city of Nazareth" seems incorrect to me. I would need to do more research on this point to be sure. Of course, it might be possible to rescue this verse by reference to its presentation as prophesy.
I'll stop at chapter 12. If you're thinking of some specific reference, please reference to chapter and verse. So far, nearly all references, are fairly vague or easily known information from the Bible. Jerusalem, Zedekiah, Red Sea all these items are of course mentioned in the Bible and would be available to a Book of Mormon author in the 1830s.
Cheers,
-Randy
 

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Topic Summary
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.



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LDS (Mormon) wheelers and dealers coming over tonight at 7 PST. What would you ask them?
by sabastious 4 years ago 47 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Hey JWN. A couple of Mormon missionaries came to my house last week and I invited them in. What can I say, curiosity killed the cat.  I have been in a deep study of all religion of late and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to speak to Mormons in such a detailed manner. They gave me a free Book of Mormon and answered a couple of my questions. They asked if they could come back and I agreed and now they are coming over tonight. I was wondering what questions you would ask them if they were coming to your house? It seems to me like the best questions would come from Ex cult members. I appreciate the feedback.
Here are some questions I thought up myself:
1. Is it wrong to be Catholic?
2. Is LDS the only true Church?
3. Is the Book of Mormon inerrant?
4. What do you have to say about the accusations of Joseph Smith including his alleged con artistry?
5. Have you seen the Mormon South Park episode or the play that resulted from it?
6. What disqualifies a Mormon as legitimate once they have been inducted into the organization?
7. What is a cult?
-Sab
 
talesin
talesin 4 years ago

What is the purpose of your missionary work, and is it conducted world wide, or only in English-speaking countries?
If a youth decides to leave the LDS, are they still accepted by the church, or is there an excommunication process?

Why do youths as young as 18 years old, introduce themselves as "Elders" when performing their ministry? What are the qualifications for having the title of elder?

Do Joseph Smith's writings supersede the Bible?

t
 
00DAD
00DAD 4 years ago

I would ask them to leave.
Life is too short to drink cheap wine, eat bad food or listen to bullshit.
 
troubled mind
troubled mind 4 years ago

They don't stop by my house anymore  Last time I told them I had just left one cult ,and would not be interested in joining theirs.
Ask them ,if they really believe all the Church teachings ,and what would happen if they didn't any more ?
If they could change anything about their religion what would it be ?
What happens to Mormans that leave the church ?
 
Ding
Ding 4 years ago

8. Where exactly is the planet Kolob from which God allegedly comes?
9. If I become a Mormon and progress to godhood, which planet will I rule over and how many wives will I have?
 
Londo111
Londo111 4 years ago

The LDS concept of Holy Spirit has always confused me...
In the Mormon view, is the Holy Spirit one of the Father's children? If not, where did the Spirit come from? If everyone gets a body to develop to the next level, will the Holy Spirit get a body eventually and be glorified? If so, and everyone goes through testing, will the Holy Spirit be tested as a human?
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 4 years ago

Are they wearing their magic underwear? Would an angel of the Lord really appear in upstate New York? One would think the Holy Land would be more comfortable for them.
They make the Witnesses look sane. Yet it also proves that there is something in WT culture that most Witnesses are so poor. Wacky doctrine-=one can still be wealthy. See Mitt Romney.
 
TD
TD 4 years ago

1. Why is the BOM 'translated' into Jamesian English?
2. How did Greek words coined after Alexander's conquest of Israel get into the BOM?
3. Why does the BOM contain direct translations of Greek idioms like, 'Verily verily I say unto you"?
4. Why is there no evidence of a civilization in the Americas on par with ancient Greece or Rome at the height of their power?
5. All civilizations that produce durable objects leave artifacts behind. Tile alone is almost indestructable. What happened to the durable objects depicted in this painting?


 
blindnomore
blindnomore 4 years ago

Can mormon drink caffein?(answer is no then ask can mormon drink coke, mountain dew,...answer is yes, I always wanted to know the reason)
Who adopted the practice of Polygamy? Was it Joseph Smith or Brighem Young? ( I understood it was BY but told by a mormon it was JS.)
what do you think about JW?(before asking #7)
Ask about ex-communicating policy?
Do you believe Original Garden of Eden was in Missouri, USA?
What do you think of wife and children of Joseph Smith didn't go with Brigham Young along with followers when he left Missouri upon JS' death? (Precisely, current mormon, followers of BY is splinter group from Original leader, JS. JS's surving family left seperatly from BY's group and carried on the religion but remain rather as a smal group.)
Ask about 'Mountain Meadow Massacre'
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Great questions so far. I will try to get them all in until we run out of time.
-Sab
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Would Romney be excommunicated if he came out in support of Equal Rights for gay marriages.
 
moshe
moshe 4 years ago

Can you show me your magic underwear?


 
Justitia Themis
Justitia Themis 4 years ago

How do the explain the conflict between DNA studies and the BOM and the Doctrine of the Covenants claim that the Native Americans are actually Lamanites?
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html
The Book of Mormon claims that the Native American populations are descended from the Lamanites, who lived in ancient Israel 2,600 years ago. This concept is stated several times throughout the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants (both of which are part of the “standard works” that makeup the body of LDS scripture):
◦“...Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel..” (Book of Mormon:Title Page 1:2)
◦“...the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians” (Book of Mormon:Introduction Preface:1-2)
◦“...I speak unto you [Lamanites], ye remnant of the house of Israel; and these are the words which I speak:
Know ye that ye are of the house of Israel.” (Book of Mormon:Mormon 7:1-2)
◦“Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant...” (Doctrine and Covenants: Section 19:27)
..........................
The studies cited above represent only a fraction of those that have been done on the origin of Native American populations. The number of studies and the diversity of techniques used to examine the origin of Native Americans provide overwhelming support that the ancestors of the Native Americans came from Asia.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

2. How did Greek words coined after Alexander's conquest of Israel get into the BOM?
3. Why does the BOM contain direct translations of Greek idioms like, 'Verily verily I say unto you"?
The BOM I last saw had dates written on each page to show when it was supposedly written.
One page - supposedly from old testament days had the word "baptism" inserted into King James Bible English.
Not a word used in the Hebrew scriptures anywhere.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Hey JWN, the conversation was almost 2 hours and was a fun experience for everyone involved. I didn't get in all the questions, but I will try to paraphrase their answers as best I can for the ones we got to:
If a youth decides to leave the LDS, are they still accepted by the church, or is there an excommunication process?
They said that they would still be loved by their families. I took some time to describe some stories where my family told me they "loved" me as they told me I was shunned for life. They said that there is always going to be resentment from a social aspect because of human folly, but that it's not encouraged to shun defectors and families are encouraged to support them and not cut them off. They did seem to turn white when I told them a few stories of mine and they assured me that their organization is not at all like that. I'm not sure I would just take their word for it, but they seemed genuine.
Why do youths as young as 18 years old, introduce themselves as "Elders" when performing their ministry? What are the qualifications for having the title of elder?
They said that it's just a title that is given to males in their missionary service. Men that go through the process to become missionaries are called Elders and women are called Sisters.
Do Joseph Smith's writings supersede the Bible?
They said they look at the BOM and the Bible as complimentary to each other. This idea seems to take up a large part of their ministerial content.
Ask them ,if they really believe all the Church teachings ,and what would happen if they didn't any more ?
They joked that if they didn't believe it anymore that they would quit the missionary work because it's a financial burden on them and is a hard life. They also mentioned a friend of theirs who quit and they said they had no ill towards him.
Where exactly is the planet Kolob from which God allegedly comes?
This question seemed to offend them a bit and they chuckled at it. They said that that claim comes from a book called Pearl of Great Price and didn't want to talk about it much. They seemed unprepared for the question.
In the Mormon view, is the Holy Spirit one of the Father's children? If not, where did the Spirit come from? If everyone gets a body to develop to the next level, will the Holy Spirit get a body eventually and be glorified? If so, and everyone goes through testing, will the Holy Spirit be tested as a human?
They said this it was a legitimate question and that they didn't know the answer to it. It seemed like they were saying that the church itself didn't have an answer not just them. But they gave a head nod to the question they seemed to accept it.
Are they wearing their magic underwear?
They said "Yes, and it's not magic underwear. It's a personal faith thing." Not an exact quote.
Can mormon drink caffein?
They said that they believe that what Joseph Smith wrote down is the word of God and that he wrote down not to drink cofee specifically. They said it's a myth that they don't drink caffein and they both shared their favorite caffinated drinks with me. Apparently it's just ixnay on the offeecay.
Why is the BOM 'translated' into Jamesian English?
They said they didn't know what Jamesian English was, but they said it sounded cool and they'd like to hear more about it.
How did Greek words coined after Alexander's conquest of Israel get into the BOM?
They said those words were utilized by God for a purpose.
All civilizations that produce durable objects leave artifacts behind. Tile alone is almost indestructable. What happened to the durable objects depicted in this painting?
They said that the painting was merely an artist's depiction of the events and said that there is no proof that the American Israelites used tile in their architecture. They gave a few examples of ancient American artifacts with the ten commandments on them and such.
That's all I can remember for now, but the ones I didn't get to I can ask them next week when they return. It was an enjoyable experience and I am trying to make the best of it by instructing them about the ways of my ex group and they seem to insist they are different. Only time will tell, but one thing is for sure, they are very ignorant to what goes on behind the Kingdom Hall walls.
-Sab
 
undercover
undercover 4 years ago

Now that you've had your first study, would you consider studying more and visiting the tabernacle for further education into the one true religion as enlightened to Joseph Smith?
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

BOM is a quick read and worth it if you like learning about other religions. Before my mother got reactivated as a JW, 1959, we had LDS over to the house for several meetings. Our family MD was related to Gordon Hinkley and he was always pushing to get us interested.
 
talesin
talesin 4 years ago

Nice work, and thanx for the reporting back.
The missionary life comment was a little evasive, I think, because it is a 2-year stint. My personal experience (limited, yes) would confirm that they do not shun like the JWs (at least, not the 'average' Mormon family). I do think that one would be looked down upon, as is my friend who is the son-of-an-SDA family. The caffeine thing is a big surprise, though.


Apparently it's just ixnay on the offeecay.

Thanks for the chuckle, too.

t
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 4 years ago

Do you beleive in polygamy in the afterlife? Who is on your afterlife spouse list? What are their names, and have you registered them with your church?
 
Low-Key Lysmith
Low-Key Lysmith 4 years ago

I grew up in SLC, Utah. Half of my extended family are LDS. The other half are JWs. The Mormon side are "Super Mormons". My great 4X Grandfather was John Taylor-3rd President of the Mormon Church.
One question you should have asked them is "why do Mormons believe that people with dark skin (anyone other than caucasian) are considered "cursed"?"
It used to be that Mormons were not allowed to consume caffeine in any form. One day, there was a "revelation" (very similar to New Light) that Coke was OK to drink. The reality is that the Church had just become the major shareholder in Coca-Cola. True story.
 

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LDS (Mormon) wheelers and dealers coming over tonight at 7 PST. What would you ask them?
by sabastious 4 years ago 47 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Last time I spoke to Mormon missionaries I asked them about plagiarism on the BOM.
The gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain a record of the Sermon on the Mount. They offer three similar but quite different accounts. One writer includes parts that the others leave out and so on. Actually I think they are contradictory but that's another thread.
 Mormons believe that after his resurection Jeus went to America and delivered a similar sermon. The sermon delivered to the people in America is delivered in a different language from the Aramaic Jesus spoke in Palestine and which was written down in Greek. Now when the gospels are translated out of greek into 17th century english (KJ version) we find three quite different accounts. When we read the parallel account in the BOM we find it is identical word for word to Matthew's version as found in the KJ.
So here is what you have to believe to accept the book of mormon as genuine..
 That Jesus went to America and despite the people having different circumstances from the Jews of Palestine he delivered exactly the same sermon - he didn't change a single word, not one!
Despite his speaking in a different language and his words being recorded in another language when the golden plates are traslated from this ancient language into 19th century english lo and behold it comes out identical to the 17th century English traslation of Matthews account of Jesus' sermon given in Palestine.
 But the smoking gun of plagerism is still to come. You know when the teacher was trying to work out who copied homework from who? The real evidence is when you are both stupid enough to make exactly the same mistakes. Well keep going to the lords prayer. In all old manuscripts it ends before the line in the King James version of Matthew about "for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever amen" Clearly these lines were borrowed from Revelation sometime to make Jeus words into a piece of liturgy perhaps first in the margin of a manuscript and later it got included in the text. It does not appear in any manuscript before the middle ages. Well what do you know .... it's right there in the book of mormon version of the sermon.
Golden plates my arse!
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Do they also own stock in Fruit Of The Loom, just curious.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Now that you've had your first study, would you consider studying more and visiting the tabernacle for further education into the one true religion as enlightened to Joseph Smith?
No to become a Mormom I would have to abandon my belief of univeralism. However, I did enjoy having them over and look forward to next week. I need a lot more than two hours to get a complete opinion.
Nice work, and thanx for the reporting back.
Thanks, talesin. I felt that more people than just me could benefit from such information. Maybe I'll get them to agree to come on my YouTube channel.
-Sab
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Cofty that was great! I will use that next week.
-Sab
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 4 years ago

I have some Mormons in my family... an aunt (who passed away a few years ago), and a cousin (who is also now deceased). I was around them for a while, and have observed a bit about mormons.
They said it's a myth that they don't drink caffein and they both shared their favorite caffinated drinks with me. Apparently it's just ixnay on the offeecay.
I will disagree with this one. I think that there are various groups of Mormons, that believe differently from other groups - very similar to the JWs. I know that my aunt who was in her 90's when I re-connected with that part of the family, would drink coffee in the mornings, and sometimes in the evening. Caffeine is forbidden in Mormon religion, in all forms, and that includes teas.
My aunt would just wave her hand, while drinking her cup of coffee and say that her doctor had told her that she should drink coffee for a pick-me-up. The implication was that it was doctor-ordered, so it was okay. Of course, she never named the doctor, he was always referred to as 'my doctor'.
Her daughter (my cousin) and her husband, if present, would go quiet, and not say anything, but I could tell that they were cringing inside.
Whenever we went out to a restaurant to eat, my cousin and her husband - both very deep into the religion - would get un-caffeinated drinks. If a soda was ordered, it would be a sprite or 7-up. Otherwise, water.
Basically, the mormons may be telling you about caffeine not being forbidden, much like a JW would tell their 'bible study' that they do not shun ex-jws. Then you learn different, later, after you've joined.
...but one thing is for sure, they are very ignorant to what goes on behind the Kingdom Hall walls.
Yes, and you are very ignorant what goes on behind the walls of a Mormon temple. (I've been inside one, and they have some odd customs.)

One of their quirky beliefs deals with their 'sealing' of themselves to each other. I do not know that much about it, but when they do it, they believe it is for eternity, and take it very seriously. It costs money to have done (cha-ching), and they can have dead relatives 'sealed' into their family, even if they (the dead relly) do not really want it. I may not have that bit 100% correct, but it is one of those weird customs and beliefs that can cause interesting issues if a married couple gets divorced, or one of them passes on, and the other goes to date again - and they are 'sealed' to their previous mate.
Good Luck on your converting to Mormonism.

Regards,
Jim TX
 
TD
TD 4 years ago

Sab:

They said they didn't know what Jamesian English was, but they said it sounded cool and they'd like to hear more about it.
Quite the scholars. --Jamesian English is the 16th and 17th century English of the KJV. It's not what was spoken in the mid-1800's when the translation of the BOM allegedly took place.

They said those words were utilized by God for a purpose.
So God invented the word 'Synagogue' and not the Jews who needed to converse in Greek? If God invented it, then why did it take Alexander's conquest of the Holy Land for it to be coined?
A Mormon could claim that Joseph Smith used words he was familiar with when he did the translation, but this will pretty much knock the legs out from under any explanation for the Jamesian English

They said that the painting was merely an artist's depiction of the events and said that there is no proof that the American Israelites used tile in their architecture. They gave a few examples of ancient American artifacts with the ten commandments on them and such.
Bullshit. The painting is drawn from both the BOM and a specific narrative in the BOM by a believing Mormon. The narrative of King Noah describes how he built a beautiful palace decorated with silver and gold and all manner of precious things. It's true that 'Tile' is not specifically mentioned in the BOM, but it does mention 'Potters clay' (2 Nephi 27:27) indicating a familiarity with the process itself.
Other durable objects specifically mentioned by name in the BOM include:
Jewels (Two times)
Steel (Five times)
Gold (Sixty three times)
Silver (Fifty Three times)
Copper (Eight times)
Brass (Thirty Seven times)
Chains (Seventeen times)
Swords (One Hundred Fifty Seven times)
Shields (Forty Six times)
Breastplates (Eleven times)
Spears (Two times)
Bricks (One time)
Cement (Four times)
Money (Fourteen times - Strong implication of silver and gold as some form of currency)
Every civilization that has developed these materials and items has left artifacts behind. You can see and sometimes even touch Egyptian artifacts of this nature that were already ancient at the time of Christ. When confronted with this, Mormons will cast about and try to point to extremely primitive attempts at metalurgy from the indigenous peoples of South America. --Don't let them jump six thousand miles from Palmyra, NY to Santiago, Chili in a single sentence
 
TD
TD 4 years ago

Why does the BOM contain direct translations of Greek idioms like, 'Verily verily I say unto you"?
To flesh this out a little bit: An idiom used in the Bible only by John is 'αμεν αμεν λεγω σοι' If you translate it literally, word for word you get "Truly, truly I say to you."
But in this case, a word for word translation is not the best. It's an idiom and really needs to be translated for idiomatic content. That's why even literal translations today translate it, "I tell you the truth" or "Most truly I tell you" or something to that effect.
But a poor farm boy who didn't know Greek wouldn't know that. If he was borrowing expressions directly from the KJV, he could easily introduce a poorly translated Greek idiom (..in Jamesian Engilsh no less...) from what is allegedly a non-Greek source, (Reformed Egyptian, whatever that is...) which is exactly what appears to have happened.
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 4 years ago

I would ask them when and where the Blowing of the Horns began.
After they ramble on a bit, just sit back, smile and tell them it was in Cedar Point Ohio in 1922.
They will likely be intimidated by your Biblical knowledge and never return again.
Rub a Dub
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

But in this case, a word for word translation is not the best. It's an idiom and really needs to be translated for idiomatic content. That's why even literal translations today translate it, "I tell you the truth" or "Most truly I tell you" or something to that effect.
Thanks for the elaboration and responses TD, it's greatly appreciated. I do remember one thing they said about the BOM now after I read your posts. They said that the BOM is only a single translation which they use to suport it's uniqueness against older sacred texts of other faiths. They seem to hold it above the Bible (just my opinion so far) because the Bible was subject to "telephone games" whereas the BOM was not.
-Sab
 
Londo111
Londo111 4 years ago

Thanks, Sabastious!
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 4 years ago

If the Horn-Blowing at Cedar Point Ohio doesn't impress them, you could play your trump card and explain how the two witnesses in Revelation pictures Rutherford and the other brothers sent to prison during WWI. When you explain how they figuratively came back to life after being released from prison, you will be able to hear a pin drop.
Rub a Dub
 
TD
TD 4 years ago

They said that the BOM is only a single translation which they use to suport it's uniqueness against older sacred texts of other faiths. They seem to hold it above the Bible (just my opinion so far) because the Bible was subject to "telephone games" whereas the BOM was not.
Yeah, I've heard all that before. I grew up with Mormons. Played with them, went to school with them, worked with them, worked for them, dated them, went to their services out of curiosity.
Translational issues from the KJV in the BOM kinda blows that argument out of the water.
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 4 years ago

Youtube is almost as good as Wikipedia... here are a couple of youtube videos that may help explain some of the mormon beliefs...


&feature=related
What Mormons Really Believe

http://www.pcbdesign007.com/pages/zone.cgi?a=83862
The second video is over an hour long... I only watched the first ten minutes or so.

Regards,
Jim TX
 
Nambo
Nambo 4 years ago

Is Galations 1 verse 8 thier favourite scripture?
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 4 years ago

You could also ask them what year the gathering of the anointed was complete and the other sheep class identified.
After they look at each other and stare at you like a deer in the headlights, lean back in your chair and say "1935".
They will realize that they are in way over their heads with you.
Rub a Dub
 
Palimpsest
Palimpsest 4 years ago

I might get tarred for this, but I've always found LDS missionaries to be really pleasant. I have several returned missionaries as students and colleagues, and they're all pretty personable and good-natured. They're just kids and they spend all day either getting doors slammed on them or being called idiots. So...maybe just be nice to them? For the most part, they want to be on their missions about as much as any of us ever wanted to be in service. Even worse, most of them go to two years with only talking to their families a couple of times. They're lonely, far from home, physically exhausted, and complete outsiders.
So extend some kindness and don't mock them or their beliefs. You can be a lot more effective in planting seeds of doubt through casual conversation than through interrogation and pigeon-holing.
Oh, and as far as caffeine goes: It is not official church doctrine that they can't consume caffeine (I think their own FAQ addresses that, actually), but most Mormons interpret D&C 89's reference to "strong drinks" to refer to caffeine, so they do avoid it. Caffeine in chocolate, medications, and other sources than coffee and tea isn't seen as taboo at all, and many younger or more lax Mormons will have the occasional soda.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

I too have found every missionary I have talked with to be pleasant, and interested in my story, born-in and eventually finding out the truth about my religion.
I urge them to look at ex-mormon sites, and to open their mind to alternative ideas, I don't know if this has helped any of them, but I do hope so.
I do not spend much time specifically on their beliefs, more on why I do not believe what I did any more,( because the JW/WT religion does not stand up to scrutiny), I urge them to put their own religion under the same powerful spot-light, reasoning that the "truth" has nothing to fear from scrutiny and facts.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 4 years ago

Strong drinks refers to alcohol - hot drinks refers to coffee and tea and hence by extension where the zealous get the caffeine ban. The actual Word of Wisdom indicates that they should drink beer (mild drinks made from barley as opposed to hard drinks meaning spirits.) They won't know that.
If you really want to ask them something to make them think as them how they know that the burning in their bosom / whatever they experience when they 'feel' the spirit is actually a divine manifestation? Ask them what else they think it could be.
Ask them what would make Mormonism false - for them. Ask them what they would really do if they found out it was false. Ask them what they have done to check that they aren't being deceived. Stay on this topic.
Doctrine isn't a very productive area. imo.
 
Joey Jo-Jo
Joey Jo-Jo 4 years ago

Any ex-mormons here? Shunning is just like what JW's do to a T
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication#The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-Mormon#Psychological

Just like JW's they are selective as to what to say and they avoid saying certain things at all.
 
moshe
moshe 4 years ago

I have a distant mormon cousin in Idaho - we connected through a dna testing website- and for a smart businessman he sure wastes a lot of time looking for dead ancestors (to proxy baptize). A couple of times when I tried to point out some inconsistencies in his faith he seemed to get kinda huffy about it, so I leave it alone. He has a lot to lose, if he quit his faith- six kids, a wife, borthers, sisters, nieces, nephews, auts uncles and umpteen grandchildren- way over 100 close relatives, so he isn't going to seriously look at anything that rocks his Mormon boat.
 

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Topic Summary
hey jwn.
a couple of mormon missionaries came to my house last week and i invited them in.
what can i say, curiosity killed the cat.



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LDS (Mormon) wheelers and dealers coming over tonight at 7 PST. What would you ask them?
by sabastious 4 years ago 47 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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RubaDub
RubaDub 4 years ago

You could ask them whether or not the people who died in Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected.
Rub a Dub
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

Yup Rubadub, the JW beliefs (ever-changing) are as wild, wacky and inaccurate as the LDS/Mormons beliefs, a ping-pong of false doctrines would not achieve much though, and I think Sab would find it difficult to keep a straight face whilst pretending Dubrubbish was worth considering.
I think the best approach was suggested by an earlier poster , ask them what would make them doubt their religion is the truth.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Hey JWN, last night the Mormon's came over for a second visit. Prior to coming over they called me and asked if they could bring over an older man who they felt would be able to field the questions better. They said that I had especially difficult queries (go JWN!) and that they felt having this person there would help smooth the discussion out. I agreed and they came over to my house at 7 PST last night. The meeting lasted until 9:30 and was quite riveting. The man they brought seemed he was in his mid 40's and had been through the Mormon missionary work when he was young. This visit was about 90% the older man where the younger missionaries sat almost like an audience who spoke up every once in a while. This guy was a Mormon powerhouse and I could not help but respect his rabid pursuit of the "hard questions." A true defender of his faith rather than the "shake the dust off your feet" JW approach. I can't deny that was a breath of fresh air to see a fellow true believer sitting opposite to me.
Is it wrong to be Catholic?
His answer to this question was a resounding no. Much throughout the discussion they used a buzz term called "there is truth in all religions." It did seem to be a rhetoric because it was always followed by an assertion that the Mormon church was the superior religion of the day. However they went to great lengths to validate any form of spirituality that has ever been known to exist.
Is LDS the only true Church?
They paint them selves as the superior church less so than the truest church. They seem to believe that they have "most truth" which would make them the one true church. However they like to focus on their reasoning why they are the "church of today" or the "church of the country." They paint themselves as better, but they will try to back up with reasoning as to why that is rather than just a blanket assertion. The man told me that they don't demonize other forms of spirituality and so I asked them if they would consider me a friend if I openly prayed to the god Horus. They all replied that they would think that was weird, but that beliefs aren't something that they hold as a requisite of any kind. In fact one of them said they would pray with them and honor their perspective on God. I told them that I believe that Holy Spirit and Chi are the same thing and they all let out sighs of relief and wholeheartedly agreed with me. I then asked them what ratio of people in their church would agree with me and the lead guy said that 30% would agree and if you told them in "Mormon speak" then you could get 70% to agree with you. I then asked how many would consider me a threat and consider standing away from me? He said about 1 in 10 would do that, but he really made a point to disavow himself from the people who acted in such a manner.
The older man brought up Islam and the Quran. He said that the Mormon beliefs include that book and that prophet as something God was doing. So they argue that they don't believe in a "single true church of today", but they do believe in a "superior church of today" which should in turn encompass all religion that precedes it. Which is what Mormonism seems to be attempting.
Is the Book of Mormon inerrant?
The older man said that the Bible has been exposed to be errant. He said that the Greek that is used in Revelation is bad grammar. So, he argued, if the Bible is the word of God and it contains errors then that would make the BOM subject to the same rule set therefore errors should be expected.
What do you have to say about the accusations of Joseph Smith including his alleged con artistry?
We talked briefly about this and I got the idea that he was aware that a person who leans on rational rather than faith could argue strongly that brilliance and con artistry could and is the explanation for the BOM. His argument seemed to draw one of two conclusions which was that JS was either a brilliant fraud or he was a man of God. And if he is a man of God then that God is the same God who wrote down the Bible. This could be called a false dichotomy within a strict rational standard. But given the body of reasoning and evidence I think it would safe to call Mormonism the "Mormon Theory" for the sole reason that they make attempt to take into consideration all known factors. One of the "Anti-Mormon Theories" would be that Joseph Smith was a brilliant fraud who studied up on some very complex stuff for his time and even ours. The man brought up this "French book" he called it that was the only known reference to something that is found within the BOM. So that's a good example of the "brilliant fraud" vs "man of God" argument.
Have you seen the Mormon South Park episode or the play that resulted from it?
The man said that he had seen the episode and that he laughed at it. He was trying to argue that he didn't find it offensive and felt it health to laugh at ones self. He said that "Mormon's believe in a lot of hooey." He made a point that all three Mormon's in the room had false beliefs. He then said that they want to be able to shed them when the time is right which is a very Zen Buddhist philosophy. The Zen Buddhists have a teaching that the human mind should be able to believe something wholeheartedly and then cast it aside as nothing later down the line if need be. There is an old Zen story of two Monks walking down a path and come to a creek with a woman standing beside it with a long dress on. The woman desires to cross the creek, but doesn't want to get her dress wet. So the first monk grabs a hold of her and they all walk over the water together. Then she is set down and they part ways. A few hours later the second monk is very agitated and finally speaks up. He tells the first monk that it was breaking the law for him to touch the woman in the way that he did. The first monk then tells the second monk that he had put the woman down hours ago, but that he (the other monk) was still holding onto her in his mind.
The story is to illustrate the Zen philosophy that their are always exceptions to laws that are put in place and that when those exceptions come the law needs to be put aside and the right thing needs to be done.
What disqualifies a Mormon as legitimate once they have been inducted into the organization?
I told the three men my story of exiting the Watchtower and they squirmed in their seats and winced in mental discomfort. The type of shunning that the Watchtower does was not known to these people. The two missionaries were from Utah and the man was from my local community in Northern California. It was fascinating to see people who have families and will always have them no matter what they do shift in their seats at the thought of what so many EX JW's go through every day of their lives.
They described their ex communication policy to me and it is indeed harsh. But I believe in brigs and that's what it seemed to be. What changes a common brig into a death camp is a sociological phenomenon that we are still studying. To me their description was more a spiritual penance rather then the cruel beatings the Watchtower gives their people. They said that they don't even know who is excommunicated and who is not, at least in their church. They said there is no public humiliation like what I was describing with stories from the Watchtower. I told them that you could go to a meeting one night and lose a best friend forever. We often talk about the struggles of the ones that are ostracized, and rightly so, but there are other victims too. Some people are too afraid that they would get shunned so they feel forced to shun. So you can literally go into a meeting one night and have a friend ripped from your arms and sometimes that person never comes back. To these men that sounded like the fires of hell and the shifted in their seats at the thought.
Cofty and TD. Your questions were answered in detail by the older man, but by memory I fear I will misrepresent him. He said that he was involved in the Wikipedia wars and still is to a certain extent. He agreed that the internet has changed everything and gave me his sites. Instead of trying to argue his points I'd rather just link his content:
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://en.fairmormon.org/Main_Page
When they left I could tell they really wanted me to be Mormon and they invited me to the church. I told them that I hoped they could understand, but that churches scare me and that I don't see myself in any of them any time soon. After the stories that I told them they seemed to understand, but genuinely felt sorry that I was raised in an environment that would make me hate church. It was interesting because to them church is this benevolent thing, but to me it's like thinking of Star Wars' Mos Eisley.
-Sab
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 4 years ago

You be careful, Sab. The JW's that helped my conversion were pretty good at smooth talking. I think the guy was very honest, but the truest church is still loaded with errors, according to him.
As far as laughing at oneself, I find it very healthy but it often shows one how to improve. That South Park episode definitely showed JS to be a con artist. "Brilliant" is a point of view. It seems the world is full of Joseph Smiths in religion and politics.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

You be careful, Sab. The JW's that helped my conversion were pretty good at smooth talking. I think the guy was very honest, but the truest church is still loaded with errors, according to him.
Indeed. I tried my best to remain skeptical while also trying not to offend and they seemed to appreciate it.
-Sab
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

I forgot about a story that the older man told me. He said that a while back he was preparing a funeral talk for a family that was split down the middle on faith. One half was JWs and the other Mormons so he was going to be speaking to both. So, he decided to contact a JW connection he had and he gave her his talk and asked her to edit it so that it would not offend Jehovah's Witnesses. She made the changes and sent the talk back to him. He said to his surprise when he started giving it at the funeral that all or most of the JW's left when right he started talking. He said it that is must have been because they believed in not listening to anything other than their own church. So, in the end the offense was really given to him moreso than the Witnesses who attended the split funeral who didn't know he had went through trouble to try not to offend them. Actually one of their own was trying to help not offend them too. Fascinating, but sad, psychology at work there.
-Sab
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago

Hello JWN, I had the Mormons over last night and the older man came again. We spoke for about 2 hours and again it was a very interesting experience. Before they came I had the Anthony Morris III video and the Watchtower's new dvd about obedience up. I was eager to get their take on them since the videos are so obviously (at least to me) cult indoctrination material.
The Mormons believe that Scripture, like the type that is spoken about in 2 Timothy 3:16, can be easily defined as the writings of Prophets. So they believe that God works through his prophets which in turn explains how God's role works through the world of men. They are very heavy into their alleged prophet: Joseph Smith.
Cofty brought up a great point about plagiarism that was handled in a specific manner the last time we met and I brought it up at this meeting as well. Scott, the head Mormon there, said that Joseph Smith was a member of a Christian chruch of his time and therefore was aware of some of what was being uttered by divine means when he was writing the BOM already. He said that Smith must have "went ahead" of the angel when the angel started into a "block of scripture" that he had previously memorized from his religious upbringing. Therefore that serves as one logical explanation for certain blocks being verbatim copies of the ones from the Bible. I find the explanation lacking personally. He also used a similar line of reasoning to explain the book being written in Jameson English. He said that he would naturally write down what he felt most comfortable in which was Jameson English.
However, most of what he had to say was very interesting and I made sure to continue explaining the JW organization to them and drawing comparison. They have always been very apt to draw the comparison and make attempt to clear up any misconceptions. I told them that the JW religion basically calls all religions that are not them from the devil himelf. He kept asserting the notion that they believe there is truth in all religions. I asked him if they go out of their way to find those truths and connect it to their own doctrine and he admited that it's just an assumption rather than something that can be found in their doctrine. It seems like a public relations type of thing to say, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Public relations with entities similar to yourself is an important skill to master.
I really focused the conversation on the topic of hating on other religions and they seemed genuinely appalled by the idea. I told them about how the Watchtower controls every aspect of the members life right down to the amount of facial hair on their faces. I told them about the Malawi scandal and how the GB basically asked for the death of their own members in the name of their neutrality doctrine. I explained that not only do they tell you how you can wear your face they also tell you when you can die and when you can live. I could see disillusionment in their faces at the idea of pinging these men at the top for what to do in those types of situations. They kept asking, "What right do these men have to do this? Who do they speak for" and other things of a similar nature. I told them that they belive that the Revelation trumpet horns points to their conventions many decades ago. I explained the two class system, which seemed to intrigue them, and many other Revelation/Matthew 24 based JW doctrine and they had to agree that it all sounded delusional. I told them that my father would always tell me that we were going to be doing mass graves at any point in my childhood. He had a back hoe and everything. We were going to be mass grave diggers for droves of dead sinners. They all shook their heads in disappointment over this.
I then took them over to my computer which had the two videos mentioned above ready to be viewed. They said that the Governing Body member looked like he was trying his hardest to be sincere, but couldn't help but come off creepy. They felt sorry for Caleb and the older man said, "One man's magic is another man's religion!" He didn't like the idea of being so against the general idea of magic. When the shrivelled up Adam and Eve was put in the kids face we all couldn't help but chuckle to ourselves. We tried to be respectful, but it's not possible to be when viewing something that is obviously a dangerous weapon being showcased by some serious dudes at the top of a mind control cult.
I haven't yet really got into the whole cult thing. I felt that I should't just come out swinging and call them a mind control cult, but they are well aware of the accusations. The very fact that they are being lumped in with the Watchtower has them squirming. I hope that more religionists out there could see the deepest blackest part of what they are capable of so they can tone it down. So many people merely lack information and the perspective on it. Once they get that many will see the blackness and impurity that the Watchtower is and strive to move away from anything in themselves that would lump them in.
As far as conversion goes they have told me several times that they don't want to convince me to be a Mormon. They tell me that's not what they are all about and that they want me to have an actual experience that makes me believe Mormonism to be true. They said that if they can convince me to be a Mormon then someone else can convince me out of Mormonism. It's a very interesting approach. They simply sit back answer questions and hope the person feels compelled to join. So far it's been a good experience and I look forward to more visits. We have only scratched the surface of what there is to talk about.
-Sab
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

The elders must be better at PR than when they were giving us the full court press to join back in the late 50s.
 

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Topic Summary
hey jwn.
a couple of mormon missionaries came to my house last week and i invited them in.
what can i say, curiosity killed the cat.



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So, why do you really hate the Roman Catholic Church?
by StAnn 8 years ago 68 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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StAnn
StAnn 8 years ago

This is actually a serious question.
When I was a JW, I was taught all kinds of things about how horrible the RCC is. I believed it. Many years after leaving the WTS, I began looking into the RCC for myself and discovered that everything I had been told about the RCC by the WTS was a lie. Everything. As well as what I'd been told about the rest of "christendom."
I've noticed on this board that many people very deeply despise the RCC. Here's what I want to know, and I sincerely want to know this. If you hate the RCC, why? Have you actually ever checked into the RCC and what it really teaches or are you basing your opinions on things like the slurs from the WTS you heard for so many years? If you have read, say, the Catechism and hate the RCC, what is it that you find offensive?
For instance, I have a relative who left the JWs and became Mormon. I read several LDS publications so I could decide for myself about the LDS faith from their own literature.
I'm not going to jump in and defend the RCC. Just want to know why you feel the way you feel.
StAnn
 
Mysterious
Mysterious 8 years ago

I don't. In fact I find that catholics probe into my life a lot less than mormons and evangelicals and that is just fine in my book. Besides my love of gothic beauty extends to cathedrals and all manner of pomp and circumstance.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 8 years ago

I don't hate the RCC.
If I was to become a practicer of Christianity, I would likely take a good look at the RCC. I have known many former Jw's who have made the conversion to that faith.
I agree - the Watchtower never told the truth about any religion - including it's own. It's all about fear and control - fear the other religion, and let us control you that are inside.
Jeff
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

I think it's weird too, I mean not to put anyones beliefs down or anything but some on here really have a problem with the church, I think it might be left over from the JW days, I've notice that with other religions too, like Universal Church of Christ they are very hateful towards catholics. I guess it will take some people more time to get over it.
 
yknot
yknot 8 years ago

Hate is such a strong word......perhaps disagree is better
Anti-RCC sentiments have a long cultural history here in America and also throughout my & hubby's family
My grandmother was raised RCC. All but one of her siblings left the faith over Mary worship & required confessional to priest (back in the 20's-30's). The stories of disdain are repeated at every reunion, every year......
On my Dad's side......my aunt converted to RCC to marry. Unfortunately the RCC locally has a bit of a reputation for immorality and was the butt of all religious jokes in the community of Katy Texas......resulting in a negative 'witness' to all (and me).
My husbands mother's side is RCC.....His mother is 'inactive' due to her divorces & remarriages....and will never return....My hubby's dad's side on the other hand is Church of Christ and anti-RCC runs real deep....his mother's abandonment further deepened this by miles and miles...
I think that most of anti-RCC sentiment comes from the same place as anti-WTS sentiment. The exaltation of itself beyond scripture, mediator between Christ & mankind, and insistance to obey it's leaders.
But that is just my observations......
 
Rivington
Rivington 8 years ago

This reminds me of a chap I met when I was a special pio in Glasgow, many years ago. He was an extreme protestant of a sort very prevalent back then in Glasgow. (I guess they are still prevalent, but not quite so upfront about it now) He said to me: "I don't want your magazines but I certainly agree with you on one thing - you hate the Pope and so do I." Rivington
 
dawg
dawg 8 years ago

Hate isn't a strong word when it comes to how I feel about the RCC... I hate that church and all others, as a matter of fact, I hate all current religions!
Religion destroys logic, you suspend logic because of faith which is what all religions peddle.
The RCC, is the biggest spreader of the Christian lie than any of the Christ based religions; it has damaged more critical thinking skills than any other Christian based religion. It is the mother of all Christianity, a form of religion that has been totally disproved on each and every level as to it's divinity.
Logic has been destroyed by all of man's religions, clearing the way for man to justify all sorts of nefarious deeds in the name of his silly man made gods. No different today with man's foolish religions as it was in the days of Nebuchadnezzar and all other ancient kings... false man made Gods being used to justify their heinous acts. Look at the history of the RCC if you need proof of this!
Religion itself is an obstacle to mankind's advancement. It teaches mankind to drop logic... the RCC defiles man's gift of logic like all other religions; I certainly hate that!
We are seeing the end of this nonsense... it won't be long before religion itself is on the fringe of society where it clearly belongs. they'll always be a few sheep to keep the flock afloat, but the majority of mankind wants facts, not make believe nonsense that has clearly been discredited. The human race will suspend disbelief only so far now that the facts are being clearly presented and the facts show that the Bible is nonsense.
I hate it when nonsense it presented as fact, by the RCC or any other faith.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_States
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Hi Dawg.
Nice to know you are open to discussion.
BTS
 
dawg
dawg 8 years ago

Burns...LOL!
The question was asked, I answered...LOL! I really feel this way... what do you want me to do? Lie?
LOL!
 
almostbitten
almostbitten 8 years ago

I'm a non-Witness, and yes, I have more than noticed that the WTS definitely spews against the RCC more than anything. I know of some former RCs who eventually converted to being JWs (one woman told me that it was because the name Jehovah
The trading of one hierarchy for another.
 Does it have to do with being conditioned to take orders through a chain of command? I have never seen two religious organizations that are so different, and yet to some extent, so much alike. I mean, if the GB is seen as the FDS, doesn't the RCC view the Pope in the same capacity, even if they may not verbalize it that way?
 I don't have anything against the RCC as I'm about due for a visit (I like to fellowship with various faiths from time to time, including *gasp* the KH), but I know that I could never be an adherent of their dogma or any other of organized Christianity. Look what happens when too many hands are stirring the pot--chaos--and then God gets blamed!
 
almostbitten
almostbitten 8 years ago

I'm a non-Witness, and yes, I have more than noticed that the WTS definitely spews against the RCC more than anything. I know of some former RCs who eventually converted to being JWs --one woman told me that it was because the name Jehovah
The trading of one hierarchy for another.
 Does it have to do with being conditioned to take orders through a chain of command? I have never seen two religious organizations that are so different, and yet to some extent, so much alike. I mean, if the GB is seen as the FDS, doesn't the RCC view the Pope in the same capacity, even if they may not verbalize it that way?
 I don't have anything against the RCC as I'm about due for a visit (I like to fellowship with various faiths from time to time, including *gasp* the KH), but I know that I could never be an adherent of their dogma or any other of organized Christianity. Look what happens when too many hands are stirring the pot--chaos--and then God gets blamed!
 
Thechickennest
Thechickennest 8 years ago

I don't hate the Catholic Church.
When I was coming into the JW thing, the book used on me was the Truth Book....I don't even have a copy anymore. I think the use of the cross, pagan traditions etc., made the Catholic's look pretty bad from the view of the Watchtower. In my opinion, taking the WT teachings out of the picture, Catholic's are not all that bad. I know many very good people that are Catholic's.
Maybe the folks that "hate" it, are having other issues of "hate" as well.
 
restrangled
restrangled 8 years ago

The history of the RCC is ugly and brutal. They had total control of the ruling kings in Europe. It is why the USA was founded and why we have separation of Church and State and freedom of religion.
The RCC despite its outward condemnation of Hitler hid many Nazis after the war until they were able to leave the country.
With any organized religion, it is important to research the history just as aggressively as x-jw's are researching the JW's.
Most if not all organized religions, in my opinion, have blood on their hands and dirt under their fingernails.
Read a short version of the inquisition.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
 
almostbitten
almostbitten 8 years ago

Oops! Double post. Was trying to edit what was left out "...the name Jehovah was left out of her Bible, so she took this as some sort of RCC cover up. I have also known ex-JWs who end up becoming RC. What I don't understand is this:..."
 Then the rest of my comment kicks in. Sorry.
 
VoidEater
VoidEater 8 years ago

I was taught to despise the RCC through the literature.
But later I found the same arguments applied to the WTS.
I distrust any organized religion, RCC included, but not any more than another.
At least the RCC is confronting it's clerical abuse issues.
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

UMMMM - maybe restrangled overlooked some little trouble that Henry the 8th had with Rome? And, maybe Martin Luther as well?
Anyway - for the JWs - JW history really truly does harbour a special hate for Roman Catholicism. I personally think it goes back to a special mindset that Russell and Rutherford both had toward the Churches - as the RCC was just about the biggest, it got singled out for a special kind of hate.
It may just be that as Catholics were often derided in both Englad and the United States as being undesirables, so thought the Pastor and the Judge. Irish, Mexican, Spanish, Italian - you name it, if they were one of these second-class groups (in the eyes of the correct "white anglo-saxon protestant" ruling class) - a Catholic was almost sub-human. Both Rutherford and Russell were arguably products of the angry protestant reactionay brand of American fringe religions. Note than until JFK, no U.S. president was a Catholic, and it was a big deal even in 1960.
Probably not many other nominally Christian religions have come in for as much criticism from the JWs as the Catholic Church over the years.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Anyway - for the JWs - JW history really truly does harbour a special hate for Roman Catholicism. I personally think it goes back to a special mindset that Russell and Rutherford both had toward the Churches - as the RCC was just about the biggest, it got singled out for a special kind of hate.
The mindset is deeply rooted in the Protestant Reformation, itself largely a political movement.
BTS
 
KingArthur
KingArthur 8 years ago

I always thought the Catholics were fornicating in the pews!
 
StAnn
StAnn 8 years ago

Dawg, just curious. You've probably made this clear many a time on this forum but I get people confused.
Do you consider yourself an atheist or are you into one of the Eastern Religions?
StAnn
 

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So, why do you really hate the Roman Catholic Church?
by StAnn 8 years ago 68 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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restrangled
restrangled 8 years ago

J-woods,
UMMMM - maybe restrangled overlooked some little trouble that Henry the 8th had with Rome? And, maybe Martin Luther as well? You might have over looked some big trouble Henry had with keeping his pants on and justifying his problem with the RCC.
Henry 8 had his own issues with marriage, which the RCC at the time would not allow him to get rid of so he conviently had things changed and had two wives beheaded.
http://www.renaissance-faire.com/Renfaires/Entertainment/Henry-VIIIA.htm
Martin Luther is another story and the start of another religion. He was ex-communicated by the Catholic Church.
r.
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

Indeed, restrangled. I was just remembering that a lot of people in western Europe were already getting pretty sick and tired of Catholic domination, and for a number of years, by the time of the first pilgrims.
But back on the subject at hand- I really think that both Russell and Rutherford had a definate bee in their bonnett over the Catholics - and that it persists to this day in that many of the JW elite think of them as the "worst of the worst" of Babylon the Great.
 
restrangled
restrangled 8 years ago

Disclaimer....R's Hubby (not restrangled)
I always viewed my JW wifes family tirades against the Catholic church akin to a group of little leagers sitting around boasting that they could actually match up against the NY Yankees.
The Catholic church is one of, and more likely the world's largest deliverer of health care, social services and education.
R's Hubby
 
james_woods
james_woods 8 years ago

Very funny, but very true, R's Hubby.
What is also so pathetic is that the JW themselves heavily depend on Catholic groundwork for even preserving the bible, establishing the canon they use to this day, and pretty much keeping western written language, the base christian religion, and European society together through the little ice age, the black plague, and all the rest.
I really think that a major part of their rejection of the cross comes from anti-Catholic sentiment - specifically: their love for the old Alexander Hislop book "The two Babylons" which is basically an anti-catholic rant that claims the Catholic Church is the modern Babylon, and that everything they do is pagan. It was he, not the WTS, that started the torture stake idea in the first place, and they used to quote freely from this book.
 
besty
besty 8 years ago

Because of their idolatrous affiliation with Celtic Football Club - easily the most despicable aspect of Catholicism
 
JimmyPage
JimmyPage 8 years ago

I can't hate the Catholic Church. I dated a Catholic girl and her family was incredibly nice to me.
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 8 years ago

I don't hate Catholics or their church.
I admit that I am still dumbfounded when friends who have never been one convert to Catholicism, but the Catholic church does have beautiful rituals, and I think we are sadly ritual-starved in this civilization.
I think that the Catholic church has done VERY well to grow with its parishioners, to outgrow the old "burn everyone at the stake" mentality, and I think it is hugely commendable that most Catholics take what the Pope says with a grain of salt. Most, that is. Some are seriously damaged by the insane Patriarchal mandates.
Sorry, but I have to say it, "Some of my best friends are Catholics."
hahahahaaa.
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 8 years ago

I neither like nor dislike the Catholic Church. In fact my daughter sometimes goes to their Sunday service (not Mass, whatever they call their "talk" .. is it sermon? I don't know).
I do have some issues with them regarding their coverup of pedophile priests. Other than that, they're pretty much the same franchise as any other religion. It's like telling the difference between McDonald's and Burger King.
 
GentlyFeral
GentlyFeral 8 years ago

When I was a good little dubbie, I was as Catholic-phobic as the rest of them. When I woke up and questioned everything I believed – and heard about people like Dorothy Day and Sister Helen Prejean – that had to go away
I only have three problems with the Catholic church, as distinct from the Catholic people I know:
◦Papal infallibility. I've spent way too many years handing my conscience over to others to come within a country mile of ever doing that again.
◦One True Religion – not unique to the RCC, I know :smile:
◦Top-heavy bureaucracy. But this is a superficial impression; I haven't looked at the situation very closely.
◦I really think celibacy should be optional for clergy and religious (nuns and monks). So, for that matter, should heterosexuality. Too many spiritually gifted people are locked out of the life they were made for because of this – and the church also loses out.
gently feral


 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 8 years ago

I don't hate the Catholic Church, but I have some problems with it. Things may have changed, but years ago when my Catholic aunt divorced her Catholic husband for f*****g anything in a skirt, she remarried another Catholic. When they had their first child together, the priest refused to baptize her, saying she was a bastard in the eyes of God. Well, when the mother in law found out, she raised holy hell and threatened to discontinue her generous contributions to the church. That poor baby was practically drowned in holy water the very next day. Their second child dropped out of cathicism (sp?) class after the nun said that divorced people were going to hell. That kind of stuff leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but the Catholic Church probably isn't any worse than any other religion.
Gary Buss: You wrote: everything I had been told about the RCC by the WTS was a lieSame goes for me. In fact, everything I was told about virtually everything by my parents, the Witnesses, and (most of) what I was taught in school was either a lie or was simply wrong. I kept the multiplication tables and I started from scratch with most everything else.
Everyone of your posts cracks me up!
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 8 years ago

I do not anymore
 
StAnn
StAnn 8 years ago

StillA, why not?
StAnn
 
golf2
golf2 8 years ago

My brothers and I went to the Holy Trinity Church in the South end of Boston. What I hate is evil. When you do a study about the RCC you would find that it's no longer what it use to be. The Jesuits control the RCC. Study the history of the Jesuits, very interesting.




 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 8 years ago

I don't hate it. For from it sprang the Anglican Catholic Communion to which the Church of England and the Episcopal Church of the America's belong. I am Episcopalian.
I see a lot of good in the Catholic Church. Many of the wonderful Anglican priests that I love were once with the Roman Church.
 
justhuman
justhuman 8 years ago

I don't, in fact the most close Christian Early Apostolic Churches are the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Apostolic Church.
The Papal Church holds a prominent possition in the Christian world. Plus it is much closer to the Christian Gospel from the rest of the Protestand religions and groups. It has history that goes back centuries and holds monuments of Christianity.
But what actually should a JW or anyone coming from the Protestand movement it is to examine the Christian history from the Early Church until now. Doing this there are many questions that coming up and need to be examine:
1.Is the Holy Bible the only basis for the Christian faith?
2. Were in the Bible indicates that only the Bible is our basis for our Christian Faith?
3. Who set the Biblical Canon?
4.What is the Protestand basis to accept the 66 books of the Bible instead of 77 that Orthodox and Catholic Church accepts?
5. Were in the Bible is telling us the Books that we should accept as the Biblical Canon are part of the Holy Scriptures?
6. Can you indicate a verse in the Bible that claims to be infalible?
7. Were in the Bible is telling us that the faith of the Church is being set according to the Bible and not the opposite?
8. In the Early Christian Church we had the Apostoles and the Prophets and they were appointed by the Holy Spirit Elders (Episkopoi in Greek)and this succesion is being carried for over 2000 years in the Apostolic Church, starting from James the first Bishop of Jerusalim.Do JW's or any Protestand has any Apostolic Succesion?
9. Has the Apostolic Church ever Apostasized?
10.Why do Protestands accept a Bible that was set by the Apostolic Church with Saint Athanasius(Greek Orthodox) at the 3th century who defined the Biblical canon?Is it correct on their behalf to accept a Bible that came out from the "apostate" Christians?
11. What do the writtings of the first 2 centuries of Christianity indicate to us regarding the Christian faith since we have letters from the immediate succesors of the Apostles like The letter to the Church of Magnisis from Saint Ignatios the Bishop of Antioch? It was written between 97 AD - 107AD.
12. Would Jesus allow Satan to turn the Church that He set with His Blood an "apostate"Church, and Satan would truimph over Jesus Church for hundreds of years?
I do understand why many JW's become Catholics. As a member now of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church I found answers to my questions to the Church that Jesus set 2000 years and still is going strong despite the many obstacles.
I know God is not a God of hate and that in the end we are ALL going to be saved by the Grace of Jesus. Because God is Love that is why Jesus blood set us free
 
Sasha
Sasha 8 years ago

I don't HATE them, but don't care for the doctrine. Studied all religions at one some points in my life to "prove all things"and the Catholic Church worshiped statues, made Mary a God-like thing to worship....all no good in my book. they never really preached from the Bible years ago, they did everything in Latin. And those repetitive prayers....give me a break. Jesus said God does not want to hear that and taught you how to pray.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

You mean, why does the Roman Catholic Church Hate me?
Why did they a nathematize me, for believing that salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
 
restrangled
restrangled 8 years ago

I really don't hate the church just their history, but they have moved on.
One funny story,.... One of my dad's best friends at the KH was a former Catholic and was Russian. He use to make the joke that when attending mass, all he could understand was the following:
I-CAN-BEAT-YOU-AT-PLAYING-DOMMINOEEESSSS!! (Said in a sing/song voice)
r.
 
MinisterAmos
MinisterAmos 8 years ago

It really is all lies. I enrolled my child in a Catholic school day-care and have found more friends in six months just pickin-up dropping-off my kid than in years of 40 hour months with the JWs.
 
shamus100
shamus100 8 years ago

I don't hate Roman Catholics at all. I know several that are quite active in they're church, and they don't push it on me ever.
Another JW lie.
 

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Topic Summary
this is actually a serious question.. when i was a jw, i was taught all kinds of things about how horrible the rcc is.
i believed it.
many years after leaving the wts, i began looking into the rcc for myself and discovered that everything i had been told about the rcc by the wts was a lie.



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So, why do you really hate the Roman Catholic Church?
by StAnn 8 years ago 68 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Rapunzel
Rapunzel 8 years ago

In the historical development of the United States, anti-Catholicism was in large part, although not entirely, connected to, and associated with anti-immigrant sentiment. Of course, the hostility to both groups - Roman Catholics and immigrants - can self-evidently be attributed to fear and ignorance; a large part of the problem is due to sheer ignorance.
As the French say, "Plus ca change, plus ca reste le meme." The more things change, the more they remain the same. It seems that everyone is looking for a "strawman" or a "scapegoat." Early in U.S. history, Catholics were viewed with hostility and contempt; they were considered "aliens." People were suspicious of where their loyalty lay. Were they involved in a secret conspiracy with the papacy?
Then it was the Jews who were regarded as such. And then the Russians were the horrible, spectral "bogeyman" on the horizon, just waiting to take over the U.S. and steal our corn for themselves because, as everyone knew, "them Russkies never could grow no corn, nohow." With the collapse of the U.S.S.R., it seems that Islam or "Islamo-terrorism" has "stepped up to bat," as it were. Muslims are now personae non grata. It's never going to change. That's why, I believe, that for Carl Gustave Jung, the "scapegoat" was one of several of his proposed "archetypes." We humans do indeed to be somehow genetically pre-disposed to searh out and persecute scapegoats.
 
Rapunzel
Rapunzel 8 years ago

Ironically enough, "Deputy Dog's" post provides a perfect example of how ''ignorance has made tremendous progress." I remember the case of a clergyman being asked if he were thankful to God even for his [the clergyman's] own ignorance. When the clergyman answered in the affirmative, thus came the retort: "You have a lot to be thankful for." Like that clergyman, and in much the same spirit, Deputy Dog truly has a lot to be thankful for.
 
Rapunzel
Rapunzel 8 years ago

It should not be necessary for me to do so, but just let me say that the Roman Catholic Church has never denied that salvation derives from grace and faith in Jesus Christ. For Catholics, Christ is agnus dei - the lamb of God - who takes away the sins of the world. To make the claim that the Church has ever denied this is slanderous, if done so knowingly. However, in all probability, it is probably due to grossly horrific ignorance. As such, it may be pardonned.
I say this as an unbelieving [or if you prefer, "lapsed"] Catholic. I wonder if Deputy Dog has any idea of the number of other churches that the RCC is "in communion" with. It is indeed very bizarre that he should "dredge up," in the twenty-first century, sectarian polemics that have their origins in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. One would not be remiss in hoping that we have all gotten beyond that point. But I suppose that ignorance - like hope - springs eternal.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 8 years ago

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
 
Satanus
Satanus 8 years ago

Can't say that i hate it, although, i don't believe any of it. I did a freebee mural, a background for a jesus statue in a catholic church.
S
 
kazar
kazar 8 years ago

I do not like Catholicism. I used to hate it for good reason. I was raised a Catholic until I was seventeen--at which time I met JW's and converted. It's true, I merely traded one hierarchy for another. But, I digress; I hated the dogma of:
Papal infallibilty
All the different kinds of sins; some punishable by eternal torment in hellfire; others punishable by Purgatory or Limbo (I don't mean the dance).
Having to run to confession to rid oneself of sin in order to escapte the hellfire.
The Holy Days.
The practice of Novenas ( Lighting candles - which one had to buy) to pray for the release of souls in Purgatory. One never knew if the loved one they were praying for was in Purgatory or Hell. I could go on and on.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

Rapunzel
I say this as an unbelieving [or if you prefer, "lapsed"] Catholic. I wonder if Deputy Dog has any idea of the number of other churches that the RCC is "in communion" with. It is indeed very bizarre that he should "dredge up," in the twenty-first century, sectarian polemics that have their origins in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. One would not be remiss in hoping that we have all gotten beyond that point. But I suppose that ignorance - like hope - springs eternal.
Can I take this as your renouncing the anathemas of Trent? If so both of us will have much to be thankful for. Just keep in mind the "Roman Catholic Church" has yet to renounce them.
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 8 years ago

i despise all religion equally.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

Nark
Did you see this a few weeks back?
From: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

Pope: Other denominations not true churches
Benedict issues statement asserting that Jesus established ‘only one church’
MSNBC News Services updated 9:52 a.m. ET, Tues., July. 10, 2007
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.
On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.
Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.
In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”
In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy’s Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.
“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.
‘Identity of the Catholic faith’The Rev. Sara MacVane of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the document.
“I don’t know what motivated it at this time,” she said. “But it’s important always to point out that there’s the official position and there’s the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics.”
The document said Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope — a defect, or a “wound” that harmed them, it said.
“This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an ‘internal constitutive principle’ of the very existence of a particular church,” the commentary said.
Despite the harsh tone of the document, it stresses that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue.
“However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive, it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith,” the commentary said.
‘Not backtracking on ecumenical commitment’The document, signed by the congregation prefect, U.S. Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul — a major ecumenical feast day.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

Rapunzel
In case you are not familure with Trent, the red discribes me


The Council of Trent The Sixth Session
JUSTIFICATION CANONS

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed"!
CANON V.- If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed"!
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him; let him be anathema.
CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.
CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.
CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.
CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.
CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVIII.-If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not as Christ taught; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of
glory; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
I'd say the RCC cut me off, wouldn't you? Some may call that "hate"
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 8 years ago

DD,
Thanks for the info, even though I am not surprised. Contrary to what ecumenical enthusiasts of both sides have imagined, the Catholic church has never officially conceded anything on its strict definition of the word "church".
If you have read the document I linked to (and probably you knew it alreay, as there was much publicity around it when it was first issued) you have noticed that its (over?)subtle strategy consisted, not in vainly trying to rewrite 16th-century history (as by questioning or denying the Tridentine anathemas or reciprocal Lutheran condemnations), but in ascertaining what is the current understanding of the issue at stake among contemporary Catholic and Lutheran theology, and see if the historical condemnations do apply to it. No surprise, they don't.
This approach is diametrically opposite to your intended anachronism, 'the Council of Trent rejected me' -- as if you were a 16th-century person with a 16th-century mind: no matter how hard you try, you're not.
What we have, as ever, is exclusivists of both sides waving a misrepresentation of the opposite stance as a bogeyman. And extremists being only too willing to identify with the bogeyman, ignoring the nuances of their own theology.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 8 years ago

Something to keep in mind is that the Catholic Church has many parts of it that are renegade. The Catholic Information center and the Dominican nuns are both very ecumenical and forward thinking, but still part of the Roman church. The thing is, the Catholic church isn't hell bent on kicking out every single person or movement that doesn't agree with the Vatican on every single thought, word and deed. This is very big when you consider the policies of the WTBTS.
 
Rapunzel
Rapunzel 8 years ago

Just to reiterate the idea of FHN, it is absolutely essential to keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Church is one truly enormous "umbrella" or "tent." In order to gain an impression of the spectrum or range included within this "tent" of ecclesiastic identity, one only has to consider Opus Dei [an organization that many Catholics, including many clergy, consider disgraceful] on the extreme right, and the proponents of Latin American "liberation" or "revolutionary" theology on the so-called "radical left."
The Roman Catholic Church is absolutely the farthest thing from being an ideological/theological monolith; it is absolutely by no means monolithic in any sense of the word.
There is one more absolutely essential idea to keep in mind when considering the contemporary Catholic Church; and that is over-arching role of personal conscience. Basically, personal conscience "trumps" just about everything else This is an idea too often misunderstood by non-Catholics. To frame the metaphor using military terminology, Catholics don't take their "marching orders" from the Vatican, or Mount Sinai [or Mount Hebron, if you read the Scriptures closely, you'll see that there is a contradiction/disagreement on exactly which mountains Moses took up the tablets] for that matter.
I don't give a fat fig what the current pope says in regard to contraception or the ordination of women. For all his admitted ability in terms of scholarship, I think that he is wrong on both issues. And many Catholic feel the same way. I think that the current pope is conservative to the point of being reactionary. In any case, it all comes down to personal conscience for Catholics. This over-arching principle of individual personal conscience has produced its fair share of "historical ironies." For example, it is quite difficult indeed to think of anyone in history who professed idea as contrary to "traditional" Roman Catholicism as men such as Diderot, Voltaire, and Sade [as in the Marquis of], and yet, if I remember correctly, all three men received a Jesuit [society of Jesus] education. Many of the French philosophes received a Jesuit education. Even today, a Jesuit education is something to be proud of.
My point is that the Roman Catholic tradition is a very long, and broad [to use a river metaphor] tradition. Like the other long and broad traditions, such as Judaism, Islam, Hinduim, Protestetantism, and Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism has borne or "carried along" ideas or notions which were/are shameful. But these long and ancient traditions have also produced fine things. The key thing is to use discernment and one's personal conscience.
One last thing that I want to add is that the parish that I occasionally attend is quite ecumenical. For example, the parish celebates seders - which are Jewish rites/traditions.
 
yesidid
yesidid 8 years ago

I don't hate any individual Catholics. I just cant see any connection between the Church and God.
http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/10995/Jeffrey-Anderson-lawyer-interview.html

yesidid
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

Nark
This approach is diametrically opposite to your intended anachronism, 'the Council of Trent rejected me' -- as if you were a 16th-century person with a 16th-century mind: no matter how hard you try, you're not.
So who cut off who? Did Luther cut off the RCC or did the RCC cut off Luther?
I was Baptized and raised in the RCC as a child. How do you think I would do in my conformation with my current beliefs? Do you think they would let a monergist back in? If Calvin was still alive today would they let him back in?
What we have, as ever, is exclusivists of both sides waving a misrepresentation of the opposite stance as a bogeyman. And extremists being only too willing to identify with the bogeyman, ignoring the nuances of their own theology.
It's interesting to note that many of my synergistic brothers of other denominations tolerate me as a brother (they don't cut me off).
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

Nark
This approach is diametrically opposite to your intended anachronism, 'the Council of Trent rejected me' -- as if you were a 16th-century person with a 16th-century mind: no matter how hard you try, you're not.
The more I think about this, I disagree. It looks to me that Protestants are becoming more "Roman" all the time. Most (the average person) probably can't see the problem with Trent. I see myself as a reformer within my local church, as much or more than I do with the RCC
 
Witness 007
Witness 007 8 years ago

I just hate the costumes the nuns have to wear, I mean come on as brides of Christ you should be more sexy then that.
 
Rapunzel
Rapunzel 8 years ago

Yesidid - Like you, I feel no particular animosity toward any member of any faith or religion; I fully belive that each and every person must, and should be allowed to, find and follow his/her own path to the Ultimate.
As for myself, I believe that NO revealed religion has any monopoly on truth; in fact, I see ALL revealed religion as "getting it wrong" on nearly every fundamental question facing humanity. For example, to my mind, there is no revealed religion which accurately describes humanity's origins or any "purpose" that we might here on Earth. No religion can provide sufficient answers. I view all religions as man-made ideological constructs.
Having said that, I see little value in your "strawman" argument. There is absolutely no question that pedophile priests have caused tremendous harm to the Church, and especiallly to the victims - the children - whom they have harmed. To their shame, certain individuals within the Church have tried to cover things up. One long-standing method of operating has been simply to re-assign the "offending" priest in question to another parish. This has long been a tragic issue that too many within the Church hierarchy have chosen to ignore.
However, [and as a non-believing, "lapsed" Catholic], I believe that these individuals are a minority within the RCC. There are many fine people within the Church - both clergy and lay - who sincerely care about others and are tying to improve their respective communities. Moreover, this is the case in most churches, synagogues, mosques, and other places of worship.
Your argument is a "strawman" in that it takes a small, negative minority, and posits this group as representive of the much larger group. Pedophile priests are not representive of the RCC. And their presence within the Church no more alientates the Church from God than does the presence of pedophiles in any other religious or secular organization/institution. If one belives in God, then he/she may well also believe that a pedophile who does harm to children will alienate him/herself from God, and that this is also the case for those who cover up things for pedophiles or turn a blind eye upon becoming aware of such transgressions. However, there are many people within such organizations who look out for and protect the rights of children. If you believe in God, these people are serving to align the organization or institution with righteous ideals.
The same is true for any person in any group. If a Jehovah's Witness learns of such abuse and then comes forth to defend the best inerests of the child in question, then this Witness is acting in a righteous way. In short, a given group/collective/community should not be held responsible for sins/transgressions that most of its members are innocent and unaware of. Of course, once an individul does become aware, then it is his/her responsibility to act.a
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 8 years ago

How do you think I would do in my conformation with my current beliefs? Do you think they would let a monergist back in? If Calvin was still alive today would they let him back in?
Imho, the larger the church, the bigger the difference between being "in" as a lay member or as an official teacher. And, as Rapunzel already point out, even among the clergy there is room for holding, and even cautiously expressing, a very broad spectrum of opinions... Practically, it now takes very much for anyone to be excommunicated from the Catholic church -- and when that happens this usually has more to do with a provocative mode of expression and the resultant media coverage than with doctrinal difference per se.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 8 years ago

Andy's mother is a devoted Roman Catholic and so is his dad. His mother has taught Catechism for years, she's a Eucharistic Minister and she sings at funerals. She had her tubes tied and she does not believe in the emaculate conception. The priests know how she feels.
 

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Topic Summary
this is actually a serious question.. when i was a jw, i was taught all kinds of things about how horrible the rcc is.
i believed it.
many years after leaving the wts, i began looking into the rcc for myself and discovered that everything i had been told about the rcc by the wts was a lie.



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So, why do you really hate the Roman Catholic Church?
by StAnn 8 years ago 68 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 8 years ago

Nark
...as Rapunzel already point out, even among the clergy there is room for holding, and even cautiously expressing, a very broad spectrum of opinions... Practically, it now takes very much for anyone to be excommunicated from the Catholic church
If the point you guys seem to want to make is, that, they feel these issues are no longer important, w hy don't they apologize and admit that they cut off the reformers for what amounts to no good reason? As you saw in the piece about the Pope, looks like it's still a big issue to them.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 8 years ago

I'm not an expert in canon law, but I suspect there's a difference between revising individual judgements (e.g. the partial rehabilitation of Galileo Galilei) and anonymous doctrinal pronouncements, especially if the latter responded or led to reciprocal condemnations by other churches (i.e., Lutheran and Reformed). Whatever the case, history can be rewritten but not undone: what matters (to an extent) is how current Catholicism and Protestantism understand and relate to each other now, and this cannot be reduced to an assessment of 16th-century history, as both "religions" have changed a lot since.
 
Jringe01
Jringe01 8 years ago

The crusades, The Inquisition, the general self righteousness of their members, the fact they kept us in the dark ages for so long fighting against knowledge and progress
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 8 years ago

I think a lot of us are really pissed off about that funny looking hat the Pope refuses to take off.
Rub a Dub
 
yesidid
yesidid 8 years ago

The present animosity of Arabs in general and Muslims in particular can be traced directly to the Catholic Crusades.

Hitler could never have come to power and waged the Second World War had Pope Pious not given his and the Catholic Church’s full support.
The book “Hitler’s Pope” proves that beyond doubt.
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

I'm ambivalent to the Roman Catholic Church. I think religion miss leads mankind.
I would guess the Wactower hates it because they are apostates of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
yesidid
yesidid 8 years ago


I would guess the Wactower hates it because they are apostates of the Roman Catholic Church.
You're close. Actually the're apostates of apostates.
 
gloobster
gloobster 8 years ago

The whole "papal infallibility" doctrine kind of pisses me off. Much like the Governing Body infallibility doctrine present in the WTS, except Catholics don't change their minds as much.
That said, I love their churches and all the rituals and whatnot--absolutely beautiful stuff. Much more exciting(?) than the Memorial. And a much fancier cup thingy for the wine.
 
gloobster
gloobster 8 years ago

Hitler could never have come to power and waged the Second World War had Pope Pious not given his and the Catholic Church’s full support.
The book “Hitler’s Pope” proves that beyond doubt.
That's a great book, I read it a while back.
Pope Pius XII did not give Hitler his full support as much as he just tacitly agreed to not intervene with the Holocaust, as long as Catholics weren't affected. Which, of course, they eventually were. Most people who gave Hitler their support did so out of fear, and the Vatican was no exception.
I guess it could be viewed as "full support", but the Pope wasn't exactly like, "Go kill Jews!"
 

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Topic Summary
this is actually a serious question.. when i was a jw, i was taught all kinds of things about how horrible the rcc is.
i believed it.
many years after leaving the wts, i began looking into the rcc for myself and discovered that everything i had been told about the rcc by the wts was a lie.



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The View's Sherri Sheperd: I Had More Abortions Than I Would Like to Count
by darth frosty 8 years ago 1 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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JWdaughter
JWdaughter 8 years ago

Wow! I have noticed in my own life that I thought I was SO well informed biblically because I knew how to find all the scriptures(you know, loose and random and out of context) to support whatever pet JW idea. . .but I really had NO clue as to what the bible said or anything about much of that ancient history-and I LOVE history. I thought my JW education was good-but even when I became involved in the LDS church I found out how ignorant JWs are. And frankly, the LDS religion isn't exactly stellar on Bible history either. Yet, I learned things there that I never learned as a JW(and I always passed the 'quizzes' with flying colors. Thing is with the JW equivalent of a 'college education', there really wasn't a lot of information required to get the 'degree'.
I had no idea S.S. had been through that kind of crazyness.
 
milligal
milligal 8 years ago

Oh brother....promoting the idea that every 'bad' human issue is the fault of living without religion is idiotic. The reference to JW's is also see-through. As much as I don't like them, no one is going to walk around saying they are part of the borg and having abortions and sleeping around-I think we all know this. What a load of bull-caca.
 

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Ouch. Just gonna post 'cos no one else to listen
by Qcmbr 10 years ago 12 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I was missionary for the LDS 10 years ago and I met the man who most influenced me 'spiritually' , the guy who opened my eyes to really fundamental principles. I just called him up to chat and found out that he's left the LDS faith having found no evidence for it. I feel a little punch drunk and a bit sick. I guess that's how those who are close to you and still JWs all felt (if) when you left. Man it sucks.
 
misspeaches
misspeaches 10 years ago

Hey Qcmbr... That must have been a bit of a shock to you! Are you going to maintain contact with him?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Heck yea, he's kinda like my twin brother.
 
Super_Becka
Super_Becka 10 years ago

Wow, that must've hit you really hard, Qcmbr.
Just a question, if you don't mind - you've said that you'll maintain your contact with this person (good choice, by the way), but does the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints advocate some form of "shunning" for those who leave the faith??
I'm just curious, I'm not trying to be offensive or anything.
-Becka :smile:
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

No quite the opposite - people normally have to get restraining orders to get rid of us.
That said there are plenty of examples where shunning takes place for other reasons(read my posts for my past flops) and in the case of someone who actively fought against the church there would be a local warning to be careful over contact.
 
M.J.
M.J. 10 years ago

Sorry to hear about a personal crisis such as this. Who knows these things are all part of our growth.
I've always admired your willingness to look at other perspectives...and engage in respectful dialogue.
Hope you keep posting, and hope we can help. Take care.
M.J.
 
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 10 years ago

Wow, Q, that must've bowled you over. Did he mention what level of evidence he was looking for? Has he moved to another faith, or has he dropped religion altogether?
You seem to have a good separation of "man" and "man's beliefs", that's important. He's the same guy he's been all along.
Dave
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hi AA and thanks to all,
Well after a disturbed nights sleep I still feel like I've done ten ronds with the spaghetti monster and lost on a points decision. Here's the list of things my friend couldn't accept:
1/ The making of pseudo prophetic statements by men in religious leadership that turned out to be absolute cobblers (from local leadership through to the top.)
2/ Prophecies of Joseph Smith that failed - such as a prophecy regarding one man that not only didn't happen but mentioned his good standing before God while later on it was found he was an adulteror.
3/ Tailing off of LDS revelation - i.e. started with balls and then has slipped into a mainstream style without real substance (Our prophet was on Larry King and when asked very direct questions re things such as homosexuality - didn't have a strong definite line whereas JS would have been very very certain and authoratitive in the mould of a Moses type.)We haven't had any revelation of any canonisable weight for a while. Also he pointed out that revelation is pretty poor if it keeps referring to events after they happened - why didn't LDS get moved out of New Orleans before the storm..
4/ Disagreement between LDS prophets - example Brigham Young Adam/God theory disregarded by modern day prophets.
5/ Lack of real power - no major healings, visions, angelic visitations or discernable signs and miracles.
6/ A 'testimony' - the mainstay of LDS faith - is likely to be no more than an altered state of mind brought about by intense desire. He pointed to shared experience with all other faiths yet that would suggest they were all right.
He tried buhddism for a bit and has drawn some comfort from it but is at the stage where he finds the christian notion of a God itself totally open to doubt. He did go back to church last week but he says its just to support his wife and kids who are still LDS.
I'm going to do some thinking on the walk to work.
 
M.J.
M.J. 10 years ago

I'm impressed with your candor and honesty about these things. There are many who would never admit to these kinds of challenges to their thinking, and simply do their best to surpress them.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Interesting day today, spent a lot of time discussing with my friend (LDS) my really deep concerns and I feel like I'm in quite a fragile place now. The intellectual/spiritual journey I am compelled to take again is to re-tread the road to see if I still believe deep deep down. I have been on a simmering spiritual crisis for some time and this is quite a push for me that will see it resolved one way or another.
I feel a bit naked now and spent most of the walk to and from work prayer to a so far silent heavens.
 
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 10 years ago

Interesting day today, spent a lot of time discussing with my friend (LDS) my really deep concerns and I feel like I'm in quite a fragile place now. The intellectual/spiritual journey I am compelled to take again is to re-tread the road to see if I still believe deep deep down. I have been on a simmering spiritual crisis for some time and this is quite a push for me that will see it resolved one way or another.
I feel a bit naked now and spent most of the walk to and from work prayer to a so far silent heavens.
Welcome to our world! Dude, we're all here because we travelled that same spiritual road. Perhaps you'll wind up right back where you started, perhaps not. But you'll be a better version of you for the journey. Of course it's disconcerting to haul one's beliefs out into the light and start demanding justifications from them. They get all affronted and offended and demand to know who the hell you think you are to question them. But at the end of the day, the truth is true whether we believe it or not. Place all your beliefs on the table in front of you. Whatever you find to be true, pick back up. Leave everything else behind. "I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question." Take care, Q, Dave
 
AuldSoul
AuldSoul 10 years ago

(((Qcmbr)))
Ouch. Just gonna post 'cos no one else to listen
To me, the title of the thread tells the whole tale. I wonder, "Why is there no one else to listen?" But then the answer snaps into place, it is really similar to JWs doubting the core doctrines of Faithful and Wise Servant being represented by the Governing Body, or 1914 as the return and kingship date for the Second Coming.
It just dawned on me. You are posting here because it is safer than the LDS versions of "apostate" Web sites. If you feel you need to talk, just PM me. I'll give you my number.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
 
luna2
luna2 10 years ago

Very tough stuff to deal with. (((Qcmbr)))
 

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Any ex-LDS - Current LDS posting?
by Qcmbr 11 years ago 36 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Sometimes I feel sooo lonely :smile:
 
jeanniebeanz
jeanniebeanz 11 years ago


I studied for a year; do I count?
J
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago


hurray someone else who can speak the lingo ! I think its fascinating and fun how each church has its own buzz words and it can be quite a barrier to other ppl. Its good to know that if I say:
FHE, BOM, PEC and 'with every fibre of my being' someone at least will know what the jello with everything I'm talking about!
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 11 years ago


I attend LDS meetings every once-in-awhile with some morman friends ... in the summer, I've played on their softball teams. I like the people, but wonder sometimes about the doctrine.... and btw, I like the green jello.
I know what BOM is, but what are the other two?
 
zman
zman 11 years ago

you mean 'LSD'??? cause let me tell ya......................... lmao
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Book Of Mormon, Priesthood Executive Committee, Family Home Evening
 
SeymourButts
SeymourButts 11 years ago

I have a Book of Mormon and have several Mormon aquaintances. The garden of eden being in Missouri and the Lamanites are just a couple of the things that shot down any chance of me ever being a Mormon.
 
Oroborus21
Oroborus21 11 years ago


You know there is a website just like this one that is specifically for LDS exs and TBMs (sometimes)? why don't you try visiting there?
-Eduardo
 
Satanus
Satanus 11 years ago


I know some xdubs that became mormons. Not sure if they are still in that.
S
 
Low-Key Lysmith
Low-Key Lysmith 11 years ago

I grew up in Salt Lake City. Was a JW during that time, but had all kinds of LDS friends and fam. My great great great great Grandfather was John Taylor. (3rd President of the Mormon Church.)
 
Carmel
Carmel 11 years ago


I just returned from SE Idaho. Does that count?
carmel
 
the_classicist
the_classicist 11 years ago

I've been to Idaho, well I stayed in Washington (or was that Oregon) and travelled to the University of Idaho during the day while I was there (less than a week).
 
professor
professor 11 years ago

Hey, how come you guys got to wear short sleve shirt and tie and we had to wear a suit in the summer!
 
mnb77
mnb77 11 years ago


LDS is Latter Day Saints which comes from The Church of Jesus Chirst of the Latter Day Saints.
this name comes from how the christian chruch was distroyed and how Christ Jesus came to America and reformed the chruch thru smith's work in the Adventist which then broke off to the Mormons (LDS). this then led to the name of Latter day saints...cause they happened after the fact of the orginal chruch being made and destroyed.
mnb77
 
Valis
Valis 11 years ago

I used to do LDS, but too much made me lesdyxic..
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 11 years ago


Almost got baptised LDS once (in the same area as JS - Susquehanna)
But decided against that.
Rev
 
Little Red Hen
Little Red Hen 11 years ago

Can I ask a stoopid question? What is the deal with the 'holy underwear?' I have been told that it is secret, not for discussion outside the temple.
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 11 years ago

God passes over the thongs looking for the special undies in the rapture.
 
Little Red Hen
Little Red Hen 11 years ago


Rev, does that mean my OLUs are in? Is it a style, texture, fabric thing? Or an invisible spiritual thing, like the new personality? If not, can they be removed for laundering?
I mean no disrespect, just a curious gentile.
 
NeonMadman
NeonMadman 11 years ago


I tried to have a study with the Mormons, but they won't come to my house anymore. Guess I asked them too many questions they couldn't answer. Oddly, they assured me that answers to all my questions did exist, but they wouldn't tell me what any of the answers were...


 

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Any ex-LDS - Current LDS posting?
by Qcmbr 11 years ago 36 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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RevMalk
RevMalk 11 years ago


I'm not really sure the reason for the undies, but yes, they can be laundered.

 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Little Red Hen - If LDS go to the temple they get underwear that is white and fairly basic. It represents the covenants made in the temple (basically to obey God in all things) and so instead of wearing a dog collar or a cross the symbols of belief are personal and private. They aren't discussed because some people make fun of sacred things - simple as that.
In the bible there are several references to clothing representing contact between God and Man - (Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses and Aaron.)
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago


So why do they stitch in several motiffs that vaguely (in the broadest definition of the word) look like Masonic emblems?
http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/tgarment.htm
http://www.foxgrape.com/masonry.htm
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/temples2.htm
Incidentally, Clerical collars are so 16th century. They are falling into decline, even in the most traditional of denominations.
Just tootling by. I needed a break from typing...

 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

They are masonic symbols. The idea is that the mason copied what they saw from Soloman's temple and handed it down the generations.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago


So the "fairly basic" comment was a slip up?
They seem fairly ornate compared to my boxer-briefs...
Still waiting:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/87693/1466388/post.ashx#1466388
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

They are fairly basic.. I also have a fairly basic Tshirt with LEVIS printed on it (my Jewish roots hehe) though I use that for football. They are basically a white TShirt and knee length white jockey shorts. No slip up - I didn't see any point in explaining them in minute detail because don't forget I'm under oath not to.
 
Little Red Hen
Little Red Hen 11 years ago

Qcmbr, thanks for the explanation, and the visual. I had always heard about such, and always wondered, I have never known a Latterday Saint, so never had an opportunity to ask. Just a few more questions, if you feel like answering. At what age, and what are the requirements for receiving these garments, and how are things like swimming, physical education etc. delt with in reference to wearing them?
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

This looks like a GREAT site!!!
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago


Q:I guess I still have in mind your recent comments about the regalia of the Catholic church, regarding which I'm not aware of there being directions about undergarments:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/88552/1.ashx
Personally it bothers me not if you tattoo yourself with the square and compass (oops - maybe that's a no-no, too, just as with the JWs - I understand that LDS President Hinckley has a "thing" against them).
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hi LH - the wearing of LDS clothing is really up to the individual who has been to the temple fort their endowment. In other words the covenant is between them and God but the instruction is to wear it at all times when practical.
Times when I don't think it is practical:
Sex , swimming , most sport, visiting Doctor, visiting a naturist beach (OK kidding!)
The timeline for LDS ppl and the temple is as follows:
1/ Age 14+ they can go and do baptisms and confirmations(Gift of Holy Ghost) for the Dead - no special covenants made.
2/ For guys just prior to a mission (19) or one year after joining the church if they are older they can go get their endowment , for women it can be a little later. For both sexes marriage provides a special case (ie If I got married at 16 I'd go to the temple for my endowment early.)
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Thanks Avishai - but I'm not yet recovering hehe.
 
Little Red Hen
Little Red Hen 11 years ago

Thanks, Q! always wondered.
 
louieb78
louieb78 11 years ago

HMMMM, On the subject of recovering. I heard those LDS meetings last forever, like 3hrs. I think id be asleep. My last JW meeting was only 1hr.
Qcmbr - whats with the everlasting church services, why cant they be spread over the week like the JW's. ?
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 11 years ago


Hi!
Current now and forever LDS here. Favorite sister is JW, also (she says) forever. I'm hoping not, in her case. Anyway, are you LDS or ex? It wasn't clear to me.
Yes, we have the lingo, and that's a hoot. The big difference is the gentleness and humor of the LDS, vs. the ultra-seriousness of the JW. We have the added blessing of knowing that we are SUPPOSED to have joy in this life, not just in the eternities. Maybe that's why our LDS meetings and interactions tend to be more relaxed and low-key, and even the meetings are enjoyable.
As for answering questions, they/we usually will take whatever time you need for your questions, unless they discern that the intent is hostile or Bible-bashing or contentious. Then they are to walk away. Same as in the LDS chats. We'll answer question after question (funny how it's always the same 10 questions, and usually the same 3) forever UNTIL the person reveals himself to be merely contentious or bashing at which time they are ignored and begin whining, "You guys say you'll answer questions but you never do!"
Every case is different, though. Some LDS just don't want to bother with questioners. Though every member is a missionary, it's purely an individual decision how to apply that.
Nice to meet you,
Susan
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 11 years ago


Hi, Louieb,
About the 3-hour long meetings, yes and no. It's not really ONE 3-hour long meeting. It's divided into three parts. One part is Sacrament Meeting, with the entire family together, and speakers and hymns. The second part is where the Brothers go to Priesthood Meeting, broken up by ages, basically. And the Sisters go to Relief Society. The third is Sunday School, where the adult Brothers and Sisters are together, but the youth are divided by ages.
Also, the children, 18 months to 12 years have two hours of Primary, which is their own fun-time, song time, scripture stories, and classes divided by age. That would be during the second and third hours described above.
Sounds complicated, but it's not. It's also not a lot of sitting around being bored. And in every class or meeting except Sacrament Meeting, people are encouraged to ask questions and to share comments and personal experiences (not scripted from any book or magazine).
Hope this clarifies it a bit for you.
Susan
 
upside/down
upside/down 11 years ago


Baptizing the dead and by proxy always puzzled me...
u/d
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 11 years ago


Upside,
Well, we could just dig up the bodies of the dead and dunk them, but, well, it'd get awfully messy awfully fast.
j/k
Actually, there's a wonderful verse in the NT "Else what do they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all" that to us supports the teaching Biblically. We believe they are not sleeping in death, but are fully aware and able to decide for themselves if they want to accept or reject anything done for them by those yet alive. Free agency never ends.
Susan
 

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sometimes i feel sooo lonely :)



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From Christian Science to Mormon to Pentecostal to JW??
by Storm on Horizon 12 years ago 6 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw friends
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Storm on Horizon
Storm on Horizon 12 years ago

Greetings all, In the early part of my childhood, I was raised in the Christian Science church, after which began attending the church of Religious Science. When I was 15, I joined the LDS (Mormon)church. I left the LDS church at 18 years old, had a "born again" experience, joined a fanatical charismatic church, and then went to Bible college to study ministry. About two and 1/2 years ago I fell away from church life all together after finding out that my Pastor had been living in a homosexual relationship with the youth pastor. Now, at 24 years old, I have a good and prosperous career, but am constantly unfulfilled and on a spiritual search. I recently went to the Watchtower site and gave them my contact information, as I was interested in finding out a bit more about this organization. After reading some of these posts, I'm beginning to think I should not have done this! I seem to always be drawn to the extremes... Anyone else out there been on a similar journey? Peace Storm on Horizon
 
metatron
metatron 12 years ago

As you note, some of us are attracted to extremes. Witnesses tend to be mindlessly loyal to the Watchtower Inc.
and are eager to preach whatever they feel are the organizations' best features - while denying scandals and the sort
or cover-ups common to any fanatical religion. Lotsa luck

metatron
 
kls
kls 12 years ago

Welcome Storm . you can always block their mailings. You seem to be searching for something in your life. Please do some investigating before you make any decisions on the JWs or they will trap you like they have done to so many.
 
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 12 years ago

Hey Storm,
I was (am, I guess, depending on who you talk to) a JW for 15 years. It isn't the worst life you could choose to live, but you could find better I'm sure. It's almost like being in a club where everybody agrees to like everybody else, or at least act like it. It sounds nice, but it starts to feel very plastic after awhile. And of course, not everybody can maintain the facade, so there are hurt feelings. And guilt, because you know you SHOULD like this idiot, but you just can't.
If the Bible were God's word, then the JW's would have my vote for Most Likely To Have It Right. Not all on this board wold agree with that, of course, and that's ok. It's a little like arguing over who best understands The Lord of the Rings. In the end, nobody can really be "right" and it doesn't matter anyway.
I found it very enlightening to consider the possibility of a universe without a God. Though Dawkins is as evangelical as any Bible-thumper, I enjoyed his book "The Blind Watchmaker". It really showed the power and reasonableness of evolution by natural selection. I never bought it before, as viewed through the Watchtower lens. But after reading Dawkins book, really pondering the whole deal, and digging around on the Internet, I have to say I buy it. And it makes so much sense, it's much more fulfilling an answer than looking to a deity.
Of course, you're not going to get the whole answer of JW's here. Neither will you get it from JW's. I wish you well in your research!
-Dave
 
Sirona
Sirona 12 years ago

Hello and welcome to the forum Storm,
At least you have realised that you are being drawn to the extremes. That is a good start.
I'd strongly advise you to avoid joining any religious groups for a while. By all means, read a lot and find out about differing beliefs, but IMHO you'd be better off having a good break from extreme groups. Membership can seem like a drug, but as you are probably aware, that drug wears off and you can be hurt in the meantime.
I'm a little bit like you. My mum was born again christian when we were kids, then I became JW at the age of 12. I left JWs nearly 5 years ago and now I'm Wiccan (which some people consider "extreme"). Fortunately I've found a small group who are not controlling and I pretty much have my own freedom to come and go as I please with them. Saying that, I've found it all quite difficult on occasion...I have so many preconceptions about it all that I've found myself projecting some bad stuff onto the new group I'm with. Gladly, I spent a good couple of years after leaving JWs not being part of any churches, and that was good for me, so it might be good for you to do the same.
Good luck!
Sirona
 
Storm on Horizon
Storm on Horizon 12 years ago

Good evening all. Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I'll comment to each person briefly... Metatron, Your comment about witnesses being mindlessly loyal to the Watchtower is scary. After all the different controlling organizations I have been a part of in my life, the last thing I want to do is become mindlessly loyal and controlled by the ignorance of a few. KLS, Yes, I am searching for something in my life. I am a constant seeker - in both the physical and "spiritual" world. I am constantly reading and desiring to educate myself about a wide variety of topics. Sometimes I don't focus on any one thing long enough to master it - and that can be my downfall. AlmostAtheist, I suppose I don't ever want to be "almost atheist." My belief in something beyond myself, something other worldy - some other force of being, is at the core of who I am. I can't escape it... Perhaps if my mother had indoctrinated me in JRR Tolkien instead of Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, or Benny Hinn, I'd be a lot better off! Sirona, I find it interesting that you have chosen the Wiccan path. I have done some surface research on paganism and wicca. I've been drawn to some aspects of the nature religions, but find some of the, in my humble opinion, hocus pocus ceremonies, incantations, etc., too fantastical for me. Of course, I've never immersed myself, met anyone in "real time", or been a part of any pagan circles, so I would be the absolute last person that could make a valid judgement. I simply have avoided it due to some of my readings, though I must say some aspects of it all still really intrigues me!!! No JWs or Mormons at my door today, though I had a mormon invite me to dinner on Monday night. They never give up! Oy ve! Hope you all are well. Storm on Horizon (headed towards Florida)
 
Storm on Horizon
Storm on Horizon 12 years ago

I apologize that my former post is one long paragraph... I had not written it as such... not sure why this is happening when I write on this board.. ... testing ....
 

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What is LDS ?
by Tyre 11 years ago 26 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower bible
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Tyre
Tyre 11 years ago

Sorry, That's a silly questions.
I would like to know what is LDS/Mormon. please. and what's their doctrines. any info ?
Thank you in advance.
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago

Latter Day (Last Days)


Saints

Official:
http://www.mormon.org/
Outside viewpoint:
http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/mormon_index.html
My experience:
All people were in heaven, 1/3 stayed to be angels, 2/3 are being born here on earth to be tested. Fail---Hell; Succeed, be a god in your own universe with many wives.
Adam and Eve we set up to fail.
Given 2 laws
Not to eat from tree of the knowledge of good and bad (if didn't eat from tree could not multiply)
Multiply and fill the earth (had to eat to know how to do that)
Say they do not teach a trinity but they do believe that Jesus is God (only 2 so it is not a trinity.....)
Blondie
 
Farkel
Farkel 11 years ago

I was born and raised in the Salt Lake City area, so I know that stuff. Plus, I spent a whole bunch of time reseaching that LDS religion and came up with this revelation:
They are just another crappy, money grabbing cult.

Farkel
 
NewSense
NewSense 11 years ago

The abbreviation "L.D.S." stands for "Latter Day Saints." The offical name of the Mormons is "The Church of Latter Day Saints." I believe that they prefer this name to that of "Mormons." In regard to doctrine, you will do well to go to a Mormon website [this is a site for (ex) - Jehovah's Witnesses]. On the Internet, you will find information that is both "pro" Mormon (that is to say, favorable toward Mormons) and "anti"-Mormon. I guess that you should consult both varieties in order to get both sides of the story.
In regard to doctrine, I do not know much about them. Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and Christian Scientists, the Mormons had their origins in 19th-century America. All of these groups were formed in the 1800's in the U.S. In addition to the Bible, the Mormons have their own scriptural book called the Book of Mormon. Mormons are usually quite traditional in their viewpoints and conservative in their politics. They have a number of doctrines which deviate very far from "standard" Christianity. Many people do not regard them as Christians, although they themselves say they are Christians. Again, if you are interested in their doctrines, just go to Google and type in "Mormons" or "Church of Latter Day Saints."
 
cyberguy
cyberguy 11 years ago

Isn't that a DRUG? Oh my, okay, maybe something else!
 
NewSense
NewSense 11 years ago

No, cyberguy, I believe that you have the L.D.S. confused with L.S.D. = LySergic Di-oxynucleic acid. One of them knocks on your door wearing a white shirt and necktie, the other you put on a sugar cube and swallow while listening to your grooviest music. I leave it to you to figure out which is which.
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago

The LDS teach that the "lost" ten tribes of Israel migrated to the western US and the Native Americans are their descendants. The Book of Mormon is supposed to be about the tribes experiences in the West.
A recent genetic study shows that the Jews and Native Americans do not have a strong genetic tie.
 
DaCheech
DaCheech 11 years ago

Founder and prophet Joseph Smith was Mayor/Military head/church head & prophet/judge/etc in the Mississippi bordering town of Nauvoo
http://www.watchman.org/lds/history.htm
They practiced polygamy for 50 years with his revelation
 
ThiChi
ThiChi 11 years ago

What does LDS and LSD have in common?
One you take with a sugar cube, and the other you take with a grain of salt.
 
Realist
Realist 11 years ago

farkel,
Plus, I spent a whole bunch of time reseaching that LDS religion and came up with this revelation:
They are just another crappy, money grabbing cult.
took you a whole bunch of time to figure that out?
j/k
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 11 years ago

I have several LDS friends who, for the most part are totally cool. I've been to their church meetings (which were "normal") and once played on one of their softball teams. I can take or leave their religion, but as a group of people, I like them.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 11 years ago

Blondie commented: "A recent genetic study shows that the Jews and Native Americans do not have a strong genetic tie."
In relation to that there is a new book out entitled "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church."
http://www.genealogy.about.com/b/a/112251.htm
 
SheilaM
SheilaM 11 years ago

I knew soon as I saw the question the next poster would be Blondie, with all the correct info...YEA
 
Tyre
Tyre 11 years ago

Thank you my friends.
 
Farkel
Farkel 11 years ago

: The offical name of the Mormons is "The Church of Latter Day Saints."
No it is not. The official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
Any Church and I mean ANY Church which have the nerve to call their members "Saints" should be viewed with more suspicion than the next words that John Kerry utters.
My Dad was made a "High Priest" just after he was drafted into WWII. He went to the Mormon church a half-dozen times in his life before that.
It's all bullshit. Religion is ALL bullshit.
Farkel
 
Steve Egner
Steve Egner 11 years ago

LDS = Local Dive Shop?

More on topic, I'm reminded of a joke.
What is the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian religion?
The cult doesn't have a university or a football team.

O.K., I didn't say it was a funny joke. It's just one of those things that make you go, "Hmmmmmmm...."

Steve
 
bebu
bebu 11 years ago

BYU is run by Mormons... and they do well in sports.
bebu
 
jgnat
jgnat 11 years ago

LDS is from one of my favorite lines in a Trekkie movie:
"Him? He's harmless. Back in the '60s he was part of the peace movement at Berkeley. I think he did a little too much LDS" -- Kirk
"LDS?" -- Dr. Gillian Taylor
"Umm-huh" -- Kirk, trying to explain Spock's weirdness as a result of LSD, and comfusing his 20th century Earth history (Star Trek IV)
...
Oops. I have just unmasked myself.
...
<---------- GEEEEEEEK
 
Steve Egner
Steve Egner 11 years ago

BYU is run by Mormons... and they do well in sports.
That's who I had in mind. But it is all a matter of perspective, isn't it?
While perceived as a cult by some, many see the Mormons as pleasant neighbors, with a few odd religious quirks. Their emphasis on education and secular achievement have helped them become accepted as mainstream... their most objectionable religious beliefs have been dropped or carefully understated. Quite a success story.
If the J-Ho's ever hope to mainstream, they couldn't find a better model.
Now, think about the "joke" again:

What is the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian religion?
The cult doesn't have a university or a football team.
And this time, think of Notre Dame/Catholicism. Interesting, huh?
Steve
 
Thirdson
Thirdson 11 years ago

The difference between LSD and LDS?
One is a totally unreal, spaced-out, mind-blowing experience -- the other is a narcotic.
 

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What is LDS ?
by Tyre 11 years ago 26 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower bible
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Farkel
Farkel 11 years ago

There are several LDS beliefs that are beyond bizarre. They spend a LOT of time getting baptized and baptized over again. Why? They are getting baptized for DEAD people, as if dead people don't stand a chance unless alive people get baptized for them. They take this crap seriously. I hurl when I think how absurd it all is.
They have another MAJOR doctrine which basically states "as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." This doctrine teaches that God somehow "worked" his way up to being "God" of this planet. If human Mormons work hard enough they too will become God's of their own planets. Each and every one of them. Of course, this lofty carrot of absolute bullshit flies in the face of the Bible's Eden story which condemns puny humans from aspiring to be Gods. Yet don't forget, the Mormons are a CULT, too.
Farkel
 
bebu
bebu 11 years ago

Steve,
Thinking a little too quickly, I considered Christian Science, JWs, Moonies, The (now-defunct) Way International, and (also defunct) Baghwam Shree-Rajneesh. None of these (to my knowledge) have had a university or football team, so it looked like the comment might possibly work... except for BYU, and (thinking more now) the Armstrong Church of God (well, they had a campus, I can't remember if it was a university/had a sports program)... there have got to be others. But anyway, yes, a cute comment.
bebu


 
Steve Egner
Steve Egner 11 years ago

bebu,
I wish I could remember the book where I picked that line up. The comment:

What is the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian religion?
The cult doesn't have a university or a football team.
was made in the context of a discussion of boutique religions (cults) and their tendency to either mainstream or stagnate and die. His point with the comment was that all current "mainstream" religions were at some point in history perceived as cults.
Steve
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 11 years ago

Hi, Tyre,
As the only active, now and forever LDS poster on this thread, let me give you a few links that will give you the correct information regarding who we are and what we believe. To put it kindly, not all who have posted prior to this have given you accurate information.
Basically, LDS are people who are family oriented, education oriented, very mainstream Americans, very patriotic, independent thinkers (if they are following the teachings which require it), good neighbors, great parents, true friends to LDS and non-LDS alike, compassionate, Christ-centered and totally sincere. Those are the ones who are making an effort to live the teachings and the lifestyle. I make no apology or excuse for the ones who don't fit that profile, as they have their own choices to make in life.
So, here are a few links you might find helpful, one of which was already posted but it never hurts to post it again, in case you missed it the first time:
Official LDS Site
Official LDS Info Site
Latter-day Saints: FAQ
If you need more, contact me directly. I don't always give the answers people want to hear, but I always tell the plain truth.
Susan
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 11 years ago

Tyre,
You will also be interested in reading about this blot on the Latter Day Saints' "escutheon." It's called the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Go to this link:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Topical/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 11 years ago

There are several LDS beliefs that are beyond bizarre.
hmmm, don't you think "bizarre" is a little strong. When you think about it, how "bizarre" is the belief held by the three major religions (Jew, Christian, Islam) that a snake not only talked to a woman, but tempted her.....
I guess it's all in eye (or mind) of the beholder.
 
Dawn
Dawn 11 years ago

Hi Susan:
I agree with your statement:
Basically, LDS are people who are family oriented, education oriented, very mainstream Americans, very patriotic, independent thinkers (if they are following the teachings which require it), good neighbors, great parents, true friends to LDS and non-LDS alike, compassionate, Christ-centered and totally sincere
I have a few LDS friends and they are very sincere. The problem with LDS, as I see it, is the same problem with the JW's. Both religions believe that only a selected few (or one) receives insight and revelations from God - so they are in control of the majority. Jesus clearly stated that it was HE who was the mediator between God and Man. He alone. Both LDS and JW's put their organization in that path between God and man. A person can not correctly interpret the bible (or other scriptures) without the help of the organization. This is a doctrine that is not founded in scripture - and it leads to worship of the organization rather than worship of the Lord.
On the flip side. I do not believe that a person can not have a personal relationship with God just because he/she is LDS or JW. If a person is sincere and searches for God - he/she will find him regardless of where they choose to worship. On that issue I differ with most of mainstream christianity in that I view both JW's and LDS individuals as brothers and sisters. Not the organizations - but the people.
I studied LDS for a short time, got the book of mormon and read part of it because I was curious. But I couldn't get past the idea that I could not research the foundations upon which the claims that this book was inspired were made. For example, there is in existence scrolls of the book of Daniel and Isaiah that date well before Christ's birth which prophesy about him (how he would be born, where, when, how he would die, etc). So on this I can at least say I believe in Jesus and I accept these two books of the bible as inspired. However, there is no physical evidence in existence today to prove that the scriptures found in the book of mormon were written prior to Joseph Smith's translation of them.
After having been duped as a JW (because I was raised that way) - my general rule of thumb now is not to accept something as fact if I can not research the foundations upon which that fact is based.
 

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Topic Summary
sorry, that's a silly questions.. i would like to know what is lds/mormon.
and what's their doctrines.
any info ?.



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by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
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by Wonderment 3 months ago
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by John Aquila 2 months ago
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by Driving Force 2 months ago



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New Order Mormons Forum - JWs Can Learn From LDS Mistakes!
by Derrick  29 Replies latest    jw friends
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Derrick
Derrick

Can JWs learn from the Latter-Day Saints mistakes? Sure we can! I recently ran across a forum for Mormons (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319220) that brings back memories of the JW forum Hourglass2 Outpost (H2O) when it started in the year 1996 (and believe it or not still exists at http://www.geocities.com/hourglass2.geo/). This new Mormon forum is named appropriately "New Order Mormons" (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319220) and is on the same ISP forum site as the H2O forums. It really is worth checking out and lurking there if you want a blast from the past. I find the LDS and JWs similar in many subtle ways. I think the Watchtower Society can learn from them, and would do well to develop a choir from brothers and sisters whose talents are in musical instruments and vocals. Hey, I even recall -- and I'm sure a few of you 'old timers' remember this well -- an x-file conspiracy theorist on who once posted on H2O that the Mormon church actually owns and controls the Watchtower corporations of Pennsylvania and New York! Now isn't that funny at least in an oddball sort of a way? ;) Check it out: New Order Mormons forum - http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319220 Derrick
 
Mary
Mary

I'm not sure if we can really learn anything from the LDS, as they are just as fanatical, sneaky and adept at covering up their history, failed prophecies and the true origins of the Book of Morons as what the Watchtower is.
Some of the Mormons beliefs are just as wacky as ours, just in a different way. There is more than enough evidence that Joseph Smith was no Prophet, he was a liar and was involved in Folk Magic when he supposedly had his "visions" and many Mormons have come to see the truth about their religion, just like many Witnesses have come to see the truth about "the Truth".
Mormon leaders are control freaks just like the Governing Body members, who refuse to ever accept responsibility for mistakes they've made, no matter how serious and they demand and expect total submission and devotion from their flock.
What exactly could we possibly learn from them?
 
gumby
gumby


Can JWs learn from the Latter-Day Saints mistakes? Sure we can!
No they can't....because they won't. They haven't learned a damn thing from their mistakes for over a hundred years. Why do you think they would admit from learning anything from Christendom, or change their ways now? Dream on pal.
Gumby
 
JT
JT


I think the Watchtower Society can learn from them, and would do well to develop a choir from brothers and sisters whose talents are in musical instruments and vocals.
i don't mean to dog you and i'm sure you meant well with this post, but I almost wanted to laugh.

here we have a large US Corp that rakes in over a Billion dollars a year by printing publications like Time Life Magazine does

It claims to speak for god like moses did, it sets up rules that impact the lives of millions, proclaims that if you don't share thier view you and i along with 6 billion folks will die at the very hands of god himself and you are suggesting they "Set up a Choir"

TELL ME --U MUST BE JOKING
James
 
searchfothetruth
searchfothetruth


The mormons and Jw's are so alike because they were both started by freemasons and have evolved mind control to a new level.
Charles russels father was the founder of the skull and bones society at Yale university that has produced most of the elite of politics and religion over the last 150 yrs including G.W.Bush.
Its no coincidence when you look at parallels of the histories of the two organisations and what they preach
 
JamesThomas
JamesThomas

JT, you crack me up.
 
Farkel
Farkel


Rick,
Sigh.
: Can JWs learn from the Latter-Day Saints mistakes? Sure we can!
From that comment, it's obvious you are still a dub. You haven't learned nothin'. All those years on your own board, all those facts on your own board, all those horror stories of a web of lying, deceiving, false history, arrogance, manipulation and using up human lives by the Watchtower Organization and FOR the Watchtower Organization, and you still think the WTS and dupes like you STILL need to "learn something?"
Doh! Yeah, there is something to learn: get the hell out of that Cult and cut your losses!
Geeez, Rick. Are you STUPID or something?
Farkel
 
gumby
gumby


All those years on your own board, all those facts on your own board, all those horror stories of a web of lying
So this Rick....had his own board and knows all the history behind the borg and still doubts?
I would reeeeeeeeeally like to hear from you rick and HOW a person can do this. I'm really serious.....I want to know. I've seen joelbear long for family and friends to the point of wanting to return ....but you. You actually were serious in your comment? Please explain.
Gumby
 
Farkel
Farkel


gumby,
: So this Rick....had his own board and knows all the history behind the borg and still doubts?
Rick owned and operated H20 which was THE place to be before most of us jumped ship and came here.
Most of the MAJOR debates and greatest posts in my experience were there, not here.
Rick is still clueless, even after all of those years of reading the great stuff on his own damn board.
Farkel
 
Scorpion
Scorpion


I am not sure if most JWs can learn from LDS mistakes, but the WT can sure plagerize and use LDS mistakes to function in the same mind as the Mormon with slightly different teachings.
Scorpion
Did the Watchtower borrow from the Mormons?
WATCHTOWER TEACHING
Dead leader still active
“…though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature
of the Harvest work.”
-Studies in the Scripture, Vol. 7, p.144
Earlier Mormon Teaching
Dead leader still active
“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the
vail in the great work of the last days.”
-B. Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289
Watchtower Teaching
God’s throne at star Alcyone “Alcyone, the central one of the renowned Pleiadic stars…from which the Almighty
governs his universe.”
-Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 3, p.327
“…the group Pleiades. And the reasonable suggestion has been made that that center
may be the heaven of heavens, the highest heaven, the throne of God.”
-The Watchtower, May 15, 1895, p. 1814
(Society’s reprints)
Mormon Teaching
God’s throne at star Kolob “And I saw the stars… that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God…the
name of the great one is Kolob…Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern
all those planets….”
-Abraham 3:2, 3, Pearl of Great Price (1842)
Watchtower Teaching
Men will become Gods “Now we appear like men, and all die naturally like men, but in the resurrection we will
rise in our true character as Gods.”
-The Watch Tower, December, 1881, page 301
Mormon Teaching
Men will become Gods “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man…and you have got to
learn how to be gods yourselves…the same as all gods have done before you…until
you attain to the resurrection”
-Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 305-306
Watchtower Teaching
Pyramid prophecies “THE TESTIMONY OF GOD’S STONE WITNESS AND PROPHET, THE
GREAT PYAMID IN EGYPT…Call to mind that the full end of Gentile power in the
world and the time of trouble which brings its overthrow, will be in the end of A.D.
1914…If the inches of the floor-lines of these passages represent a year, each…
-Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. III, 1891 (1903 edition), pages 313 (title), 362-363
Mormon Teaching
Pyramid prophecies
“…a new witness that the Lord seems to have brought to light, by the opening of the
Great Pyramid of Egypt… There seems to be a prophetic spirit running through the
construction of all that cast superstructure, pointing forward to the very end…Allowing
one year to a cubit inch… the generation that will close up the times of the Gentiles.”
-Orson Pratt, Fiftieth Annual Conference Report of the Mormon Church, 1880, pages
86-87
WATCHTOWER TEACHING
God’s channel
“Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will
not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.”
-The Watchtower, December 1, 1981, pg.27
Earlier Mormon teaching
God’s channel “Do we realize that this is the channel through which the mind and will of God our
Father is made known to us?…and it is among the privileges of every man and every
woman to approach the Lord through this channel and learn his mind and will
concerning them.”
-Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, 1875, p.98
Watchtower Teaching
Generation prophecies “Most important, this magazine build confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful
and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes
away.”

Earlier Mormon teaching
Generation prophecies “We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by
the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a
fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they
expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie.”
-Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, May 5, 1870, p. 362
Taken from David Reeds 1991 Spring edition of Comments from the Friends
 
Derrick
Derrick


Mary wrote:
What exactly could we possibly learn from them?
For one thing, we can learn to be joyful in our worship to Jehovah through Jesus Christ as the Mormons express through their beautiful temples and choir. Look at the beautiful temples of the past and Ark amongst other historical monuments in the temples of Jehovah over the millenniums and as documented in the Old and New Testaments (Hebrew and Greek Scriptures) of the Bible and the joyfulness that people experienced worshipping the Creator. The Scriptures have emphasized song and musical instruments, and the Mormon Church is considered by many as second to none in this area. Do we listen to musical instrument accompanyment in our Kingdom Halls during worship services? No... we sing to the accompanyment of recorded music for the most part.
Another thing, we can learn to have balance in our lives. The Bible says that for everything is a season, and in the preaching work the Latter-Day Saints assign the missionary work to youth and volunteers. Forcing everyone to go out in the field with the threat of being declared spiritually weak by the congregation elders is just plain disfunctional. Compare the success of the LDS missionary work to the JW missionary work in growth. For that matter, look at the growth of the Catholic Church where nobody is expected to cover territories and wake tired folks from their rest on Saturday mornings and compare that to ours. The truth is that the Apostles never expected everyone in the congregation to preach the gospel by knocking on everybody's doors. A new paradigm for the preaching work in this century is necessary if the organization is to experience the growth enjoyed by other faiths such as the Mormons.
Gumby wrote:
They haven't learned a damn thing from their mistakes for over a hundred years. Why do you think they would admit from learning anything from Christendom, or change their ways now? Dream on pal.
I'm sorry you feel that way, Gumby, I really do, but you know what? I completely understand your lack of faith that miracles can occur in the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. Reform for many skeptics is really on par with expecting Moses's ancestor to rise and part the Red Sea... the whole concept of reforming the Watchtower is considered by many as optimistic as trying to renovate an old house filled with dry rot and irreversible termite damage.
However, those who have seen the power of God in their lives such as I have know that, to put it bluntly, supernatural events that will shock the most hardened skeptics will happen. Such reformations have occurred in the dark ages to the disbelief of millions, and so why should God not illuminate our lives today by reforming the unreformable?
JT wrote:
It claims to speak for god like moses did, it sets up rules that impact the lives of millions, proclaims that if you don't share thier view you and i along with 6 billion folks will die at the very hands of god himself and you are suggesting they "Set up a Choir"
I laughed a little at your stark candor, JT, and then realized that as perverse as it may sound the answer is "yes"! Listening to a good choir is a spiritually and emotionally healing experience both for those performing and those in the audience, and the spiritual power of good music should not be underestimated.
And jest I did not.
Farkel wrote:
From that comment, it's obvious you are still a dub. You haven't learned nothin'. All those years on your own board, all those facts on your own board, all those horror stories of a web of lying, deceiving, false history, arrogance, manipulation and using up human lives by the Watchtower Organization and FOR the Watchtower Organization, and you still think the WTS and dupes like you STILL need to "learn something?"
The wealth of information on H2O over the years has indeed been a learning experience, believe it or not, Farkel. All those horror stories, the web of lies and deceit, their arrogance, the elderly master manipulators pulling the levers behind the curtain in "Oz" and living high off the hog on the Farm in Patterson, the used up human lives they thought would become fertilizer in the gardens of post-Armageddon survivors... it forever had its impact upon myself and countless others passing through the Hourglass portal.
All this, Farkel, you correctly pointed out but failed to recognize is in fact, with all due respect to your disagreement, all the more reason why the "dupes" in the Watchtower and myself and countless others in the organization need to learn something! Because those who fail to learn can be likened to the prophet outside the ancient city of Nineveh in the book of Jonah.
Farkel wrote:
Geeez, Rick. Are you STUPID or something?
No... actually, I'm pretty smart.

Gumby wrote:
So this Rick....had his own board and knows all the history behind the borg and still doubts?

I would reeeeeeeeeally like to hear from you rick and HOW a person can do this. I'm really serious.....I want to know. I've seen joelbear long for family and friends to the point of wanting to return ....but you. You actually were serious in your comment? Please explain.
It's really very simple, Gumby. The Governing Body are human beings for whom Christ died, and so is everybody else. Everyone and I mean everyone will stand before the throne of God in the final judgment. True Christians are those who rise above all the petty-anny b.s. the world dishes out and forgives again and again (up to 7 times? 77 times?...) and believes that through faith Jesus Christ can move mountains if this will serve God's will. If the Bible says that even the secular authorities serve God's purpose, then certainly God can use the 6+ million JWs worldwide as part of accomplishing his will. It is a serious mistake for anyone to simply write them off when there is so much potential.
The comment about them forming a choir similar to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir was meant as a generalized comment, an effort symbolic of spiritual progress, because obviously there are many areas of this church that need positive changes. One could argue the lack of a choir is the least of their concerns, but my point is that unless you start at the grass roots level to bring joy to people in worship then you miss the whole point that the God of love is a joyful God that created humans for the purpose of enjoying eternal life to the fullest.
Scorpion quoted:
Did the Watchtower borrow from the Mormons?
WATCHTOWER TEACHING

Dead leader still active
“…though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature
of the Harvest work.”
-Studies in the Scripture, Vol. 7, p.144

Earlier Mormon Teaching

Dead leader still active
“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the
vail in the great work of the last days.”
-B. Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289

Watchtower Teaching

God’s throne at star Alcyone “Alcyone, the central one of the renowned Pleiadic stars…from which the Almighty
governs his universe.”
-Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 3, p.327
“…the group Pleiades. And the reasonable suggestion has been made that that center
may be the heaven of heavens, the highest heaven, the throne of God.”
-The Watchtower, May 15, 1895, p. 1814
(Society’s reprints)

Mormon Teaching

God’s throne at star Kolob “And I saw the stars… that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God…the
name of the great one is Kolob…Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern
all those planets….”
-Abraham 3:2, 3, Pearl of Great Price (1842)

Watchtower Teaching

Men will become Gods “Now we appear like men, and all die naturally like men, but in the resurrection we will
rise in our true character as Gods.”
-The Watch Tower, December, 1881, page 301

Mormon Teaching

Men will become Gods “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man…and you have got to
learn how to be gods yourselves…the same as all gods have done before you…until
you attain to the resurrection”
-Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 305-306

Watchtower Teaching

Pyramid prophecies “THE TESTIMONY OF GOD’S STONE WITNESS AND PROPHET, THE
GREAT PYAMID IN EGYPT…Call to mind that the full end of Gentile power in the
world and the time of trouble which brings its overthrow, will be in the end of A.D.
1914…If the inches of the floor-lines of these passages represent a year, each…
-Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. III, 1891 (1903 edition), pages 313 (title), 362-363

Mormon Teaching

Pyramid prophecies
“…a new witness that the Lord seems to have brought to light, by the opening of the
Great Pyramid of Egypt… There seems to be a prophetic spirit running through the
construction of all that cast superstructure, pointing forward to the very end…Allowing
one year to a cubit inch… the generation that will close up the times of the Gentiles.”
-Orson Pratt, Fiftieth Annual Conference Report of the Mormon Church, 1880, pages
86-87

WATCHTOWER TEACHING

God’s channel
“Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will
not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.”
-The Watchtower, December 1, 1981, pg.27

Earlier Mormon teaching

God’s channel “Do we realize that this is the channel through which the mind and will of God our
Father is made known to us?…and it is among the privileges of every man and every
woman to approach the Lord through this channel and learn his mind and will
concerning them.”
-Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, 1875, p.98

Watchtower Teaching

Generation prophecies “Most important, this magazine build confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful
and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes
away.”


Earlier Mormon teaching

Generation prophecies “We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by
the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a
fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they
expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie.”
-Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, May 5, 1870, p. 362

Taken from David Reeds 1991 Spring edition of Comments from the Friends
I had no idea! These remarkable similarities are quite shocking. It's as if both faiths, the JWs and the LDS, are controlled by two major corporations that seem totally separate but are secretly owned by one holding company. Those early quotes you posted make me wonder if there were ties between the early Watchtower and the Mormons and Freemasonry?
Derrick
 
SYN
SYN


Can JWs learn from the Latter-Day Saints mistakes? Sure we can!
We?
What do you mean, we?
Are you quite all right? Running a bit of a temperature, perhaps?
Derrick, do you do much Field Service?
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan

In addition to the items listed by Scorpion, I also understand from my reading ex-mormon discussion boards, that the Mormon org is constantly warning their flock to STAY AWAY FROM THE INTERNET!!!!! lol
 
teenyuck
teenyuck


I think the JWs could learn alot from the Mormons...
Personally, I think several wives would be great....I would really like to be one of the group...share my husband with several other woman; some who could be my blood sister. Just think of the pressure that would be lifted....sex only when he wants it and if you are lucky only 1 per week. Think of how the ranks could swell....10-30 children per family; more people to preach and save at armageddon.
I believe that a choir would be very helpful. I like listening to people sing....I wonder if they will do Van Halen or AC/DC?
I also really like and admire Donny and Marie...if the dubs start to train young people how to sing, just think, they could have the next Osmond Jackson family...
 
Room 215
Room 215

Appropos of the subject of JWs vis-a-vis the Mormons, doesn't it seem that that there's a sort of ``mutual non-agression pact" in place between them? I mean, they don't seem to come in for a lot of criticism from Watchtower literature, in fact are almost completely ignored, and vice-versa. It's much like the wide berth the WTBTS gave the Plain Truth gang, and vice-versa, some years back.
 
gumby
gumby


I'm sorry you feel that way, Gumby, I really do, but you know what? I completely understand your lack of faith that miracles can occur in the Jehovah's Witnesses religion
Never mind my question to you rick.....I think I understand.......you turned into a damn "stepford" man. Remember the movie.."the stepford wifes"? The women were like robots that thought everything was just fine.
You rick, are a good example of what the mind can block out and believe if it wants to bad enough. Me.....if it's a lie........it's a frickin lie.....to you .....who gives a shit. You don't care......it makes you feel good and your lost without it. You are mentally sick in a way. (no offense) You have no sense of reality and that's kinda scary.
I've always wondered how someone could be content with living a "pretend life". I figured it would work for awhile until reality set in hard enough. I guess if your sick enough......reality NEVER sets in.
Thanks Rick......I've learned something
Gumby
Gumby
 
blackguard
blackguard


Hi Derrick,
Your comment,"I find the LDS and JWs similar in many subtle ways", is more profound than you might imagine. Poster scorpion aparently recognized the occultic theological similarities as did an individual, whom you self-righteously labelled an "x-file conspiracy theorist", recognize the corporate connections. C.T.Russell and Joseph Smith were not only residents of Pennsylvania, but both were Illuminists, practisers of gnostic traditions. Their occultic theology was virtually identical because of their connections to Masonry. While the artificial religious person, aka the Watch Tower corporation, may not be directly controlled by the Mormons both still have the common philosophic parent that direct the affairs of both juggernauts. I reccomend that to maintain your own peace of mind you do not investigate these claims lest you stumble upon the truth of this matter. (William Huntington Russell is considered to be the originator of Skull & Bones in the USA, not Joseph Russell).
 
sf
sf


{{{{{{{{{{ blackguard hug }}}}}}}}}}}
For some reason, I just needed to 'do' that. Hope you don't mind.
The 'Freemason' and sometimes an 'ex Freemasons' room are alwayss up in yahoo chat now. It would be nice to chat a spell sometime. Just throwin' it out there.
sKally

Farkel
Farkel


Room 215,
: Appropos of the subject of JWs vis-a-vis the Mormons, doesn't it seem that that there's a sort of ``mutual non-agression pact" in place between them? I mean, they don't seem to come in for a lot of criticism from Watchtower literature, in fact are almost completely ignored, and vice-versa.
Well, I was born and raised in the Salt Lake City area, and I can tell you, we dubs knew EVERY dark secret about the Mormons. After all, they made up the majority of the people we peddled our magazines and books to. During that time, I became quite an expert on Mormon idiocy and used that knowledge in field service. (Of course, I was an absolute moron not to recognize my own Watchtower Idiocy(tm) at the time!)
If there was any mutual non-agression pact between the WTS and the LDS I wasn't aware of it when I was in. Of course, the WTS hates everyone else but their own, but I was never told to go soft on Mormons. And I lived in the very center of the LDS religion.
Farkel

Farkel

Big Tex
Big Tex


Farkel
I don't mean to hijack this thread (especially since some folks think that is a no-no), but I am curious regarding your opinion. You say you were born and raised in the area, so undoubtedly you are well versed in LDS philosphy. But in retrospect do you think LDS (Mormons) are more or less (what's the word) .... harsh on their members as opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses? By that I mean, do you feel that this religion leaves fewer scars on their believers, creates fewer dysfunctions by their teachings or causes less havoc amongst the general populace than does Jehovah's Witnesses among theirs ?
Just so you know where I'm coming from on this, I doubt very seriously if I will ever walk (voluntarily) into another church. My question is merely intellelctual curiousity and I value your opinion as you are someone who is a straight shooter. Let me also put the caveat in that I recognize that all organized religion screws with the human mind. I guess I'm focused moreso on a comparison of Mormon versus Jehovah's Witnesses.
Peace,
Chris


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New Order Mormons Forum - JWs Can Learn From LDS Mistakes!
by Derrick 13 years ago 29 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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Farkel
Farkel 13 years ago


Hi Chris,
: But in retrospect do you think LDS (Mormons) are more or less (what's the word) .... harsh on their members as opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses? By that I mean, do you feel that this religion leaves fewer scars on their believers, creates fewer dysfunctions by their teachings or causes less havoc amongst the general populace than does Jehovah's Witnesses among theirs ?
I don't think the Mormons leave bigger scars on their member and ex-members than JWs.
I visited one of my cousins back in Logan several years ago, and asked him this very question. He served on a mission and was raised in the Mormon religion. He said that when one is disfellowshipped in that faith that shunning is encouraged but not enforced. And he said that under NO circumstances is shunning encouraged OR enforced when it comes to close family members.
Regarding the issue of leaving scars and creating dysfunctions, I can only say this: the Mormon religion IS just another weird and goofy cult, but after living around it and living around the JWs for most of my young life, I can honestly say it is not NEARLY as dangerous as the Watchtower Cult(tm).
The one thing the Mormons and dubs have in common is this: they both worship their human religious masters. But then again, so do the Catholics and many other religions. (I think humans who claim religious authority may be part of the problem here.)
Farkel
 
Derrick
Derrick 13 years ago


Blackguard wrote:
Your comment,"I find the LDS and JWs similar in many subtle ways", is more profound than you might imagine. Poster scorpion aparently recognized the occultic theological similarities as did an individual, whom you self-righteously labelled an "x-file conspiracy theorist", recognize the corporate connections. C.T.Russell and Joseph Smith were not only residents of Pennsylvania, but both were Illuminists, practisers of gnostic traditions. Their occultic theology was virtually identical because of their connections to Masonry. While the artificial religious person, aka the Watch Tower corporation, may not be directly controlled by the Mormons both still have the common philosophic parent that direct the affairs of both juggernauts. I reccomend that to maintain your own peace of mind you do not investigate these claims lest you stumble upon the truth of this matter. (William Huntington Russell is considered to be the originator of Skull & Bones in the USA, not Joseph Russell).
In other words C.T. Russell and Joseph Smith were sworn members of the Illuminati as well as practicing Freemasons? Is it possible they knew one another and attended the same Masonic Lodge? That could explain a lot.
By the way have you seen the recent movie "Tomb Raider"? I was curious about the accuracy of the movie's treatment of the Illuminati and application of poet William Blake's famous quote?
Derrick
 
gumby
gumby 13 years ago


Is it possible they knew one another and attended the same Masonic Lodge? That could explain a lot.
Well, since Joseph Smith was already dead when Russell was born.....I doubt it.
Gumby
 
blackguard
blackguard 13 years ago

One researcher claims that Joseph Smith died at the hands of an angry masonic mob while fending them off with masonic hands signs and phrases. Masons have been know to murder their treasonous own; another researcher claims Russell might have been ritualistically murdered on Halloween, 1916 and that he lies buried in a masonic cemetery next to a Watch Tower pyramid and in sight of the Masonic Lodge. Smith and Russell weren't exactly contemporaries and were not Illuminati. Robison says there are several degrees of Illuminism. Both Smith and Russell appear as minor players in the Illuminati scheme. Analyze the 19th century religious pluralism of Pennsylvania to form an opinion; then compare Russell's theology with various Masonic teachings including Kabbalah, Hermeticism,Rosicrucianism. Russell admitted he lost faith in the bible and pursued Truth in occultic literature. The image of the Watch Tower is a subliminal reminder of the agenda. It is of the pre-flood period in which spirits were Watchers over mankind; these were the "b'nai elohim"-demon gods that formented the evil and violence of the period. That age was also called the Golden Age; and the magazine bearing that same name is today called 'Awake'. Russell's original image of a watchtower is of a flashing lighthouse with sea waves crashing upon the rocks below the lighthouse. Compare that image with Tarot card number 7 (?). An active jaydub by the name of Shemuwel Antoine Moser has a website devoted to occultic imagery and freemasonry---it's worth a visit. On that website he correctly claims another symbol of the lighthouse is a penis and that a flashing lighthouse means ejaculation, especially oral ejaculation. Russell's marriage may well have represented a spiritual union devoid of intercourse thus necessitating him gaining satisfaction in 'different' ways.
 
sf
sf 13 years ago


Surfsteve's Forums - Poor sick deluded man, Samael Moser...
... I hope he gets the help he needs before he harms himself or someone else... From:
"Samuel Antoine Moser" <moser@donet.com> To ... Shemuwel. FtWorth148 New Member. ... www.surfsteve.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=829 - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Need Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - www.ezboard.com
... ----- Shemuwel Formerly Samuel Antoine Moserwww.watchtower.org By the way I still am leagally named Samuel. ...
pub8.ezboard.com/ ffreemasonrywatchfrm3.showMessage?topicID=13.topic - 15k - Cached - Similar pages :
http://www.donet.com/~moser/index.htm/phallus.htm
Does this 'guy' know 'Kermit'? Just curious and, rhetorical!
sKally
 
blackguard
blackguard 13 years ago


Hi sKally,
Thanks for your hugs and invitation to chat. I am not e-sophisticated to handle a chat room just yet. I have large sausage-like fingers which strike three keyboards letters simultaneously thus giving me a distinct disadvantage in a chat room---it's a disease I tell ya---e.dyslexia. I have othewise been busy pursuing information on the incoming Sundisc, an object of Russell's Illuminist knowledge and affection, you'll no doubt recall. Latest is that it's sightable outside the solar system somewhere in the Scorpius constellation. My suspicion is that Russell's belief that the rapture was to have occurred first in 1881 then 1883 had more to do with his misunderstanding of WHEN it returns. You'll remember that Russell did not believe that the present watchtower eschatological exegesis of Mathew 24:1-14 was anything more than the repeating patterns of history. He apparently believed that the "sign" was something other than the non-signs now promoted by the watchtower and other heretical groups. In short Russell may have been 120 years out in his calculations for the rapture, an event he believed would ocurr simultaneously with the return of the Sundisc.
Yes, poor Mr. Moser. He does seem a little off-balance; hopefully not suicidal. His research is quite incredible. I have yet to see a website so comprehensive on occultic symbols as his.
 
czarofmischief
czarofmischief 13 years ago


Hey! I live in Pennsylvania too! I've seen Russell's tomb!
I hereby proclaim that I am Russell's reincarnation! Follow me! Send me money!
CZAR
 
blackguard
blackguard 13 years ago


Hey czar',
Other people have spent fortunes searching for DeSoto's Fountain of Youth, but you've reincarnated; why would you now need money? Your WTS has bundles!
 
blackguard
blackguard 13 years ago


Pardon me Czar' or is it okay to now call you Chuck,
I meant De Leon's Fountain of Youth, not De Soto.
 
sf
sf 13 years ago


Hello again blackguard,
There is voice chat features as well, if typing is cumbersome. FYI
And you are most welcomed!
sKally
 

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Topic Summary
can jws learn from the latter-day saints mistakes?
i recently ran across a forum for mormons (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319220) that brings back memories of the jw forum hourglass2 outpost (h2o) when it started in the year 1996 (and believe it or not still exists at http://www.geocities.com/hourglass2.geo/).
this new mormon forum is named appropriately "new order mormons" (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319220) and is on the same isp forum site as the h2o forums.



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Do Mormons have a more intellectually substantial belief system than JWs?
by slimboyfat 10 years ago 22 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 10 years ago

That seems to be the implication in a new evangelical response to Mormonism called "The New Mormon Challenge: Responding to the Latest Defenses of a Fast-Growing Movement."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310231949/qid%3D1142896789/202-9316169-3351050
This books presents a sophisticated response from serious scholars in fields of theological and religious studies who bring their expertise to bear on controversial Mormon truth claims. This is said to contrast with the poor quality of previous evangelical responses to Mormonism that consisted of little more than caricature and name-calling. The need for a better quality of Christian response to Mormons in particular is explained with reference to the increase in Mormon scholarly activity and sophisticated apologetic literature from the movement.
Not only has Bringham Young University proved itself to be an important centre of intellectual activity, but LDS scholars can be found throughout the ranks of the North American academy. This fact by itself should dictate that evangelicals treat Mormonism differently than other groups that we have typically - and misleadingly - lumped together as "the cults." Christian Science has had almost no influence in the academy. And we are not being flippant in saying that the term "Jehovah's Witness scholar" has the feel of an oxymoron. But the existence of a highly intellectual Mormon subculture - where LDS scholars engage in serious exploration of other perspectives and debate these matters openly among themselves - suggests that we would do well to treat the Mormon worldview as a serious intellectual perspective. (page 12)
A blurb on the back cover also talks of these evangelical scholars paying Mormons "the high compliment of a serious, contemporary evaluation."
More substantially, the editors of the book claim that Mormons present a coherent and substantial view of God, in particular relating to their view that God did not create the Universe out of nothing, that is worthy of extensive interaction and refutation within the long tradition of Christian apologetic literature written in response to other "world faiths" and philosophies such as Paganism, Islam and Atheism.
But is it really so that a group that promotes a patently false history of an entire continent, passes of an imaginative work as a serious translation of an ancient text, and does not even have a clearly defined body of agreed doctrines is intellectually more substantial than the faith that Jehovah's Witnesses have? I would suggest that those evangelicals who have felt compelled to pay Mormons this compliment of a serious, deliberate apologetic interaction are really responding to the slick operation of an effective PR machine rather than to a coherent, sophisticated philosophical challenge. The current Mormon leadership are masters at media management, and the fact that even evangelical opponents are now calling for Mormonism to be treated as a coherent philosophical system worthy of proper evaluation is testimony to a phenomenal Mormon triumph. By engaging Mormonism thus in battle, these evangelicals only serve to prove that the Mormons are well on the way to winning the war for recognition as a "world faith" worthy of respect instead of being viewed merely as a fraudulent cult or sect deserving contempt.
Jehovah's Witnesses have largely failed on that score, not because their beliefs are somehow inherently less coherent or intrinsically less meritorious, but for the more mundane reasons that they discourage higher education for their followers, frown upon independent apologetic efforts, and are only beginning to learn basic media management skills.
I am going to post this topic on both the JW discussion site and the ex-Mormon board with corresponding links in the hope of promoting cross-community discussion on this subject. There are so many points of contact between the experiences of our two groups that I feel that promoting interaction can only result in a fruitful exchange.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 10 years ago

http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/index.php?site=exmobb&bn=exmobb_recovery
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

Mormons I don't feel are as over the top as JW, but they still dictate your life. They place great emphasis on family which is good, but they still like to butt in on personal lives which is not.
Juni
 
EAGLE-1
EAGLE-1 10 years ago

Besides looking silly ?
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

At least they actually encourgae college - in fact they have their own Brigham Young University
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 10 years ago

I don't know much about their belief system but I would seriously investigate them if I was in the market for a new bike.
Rub a Dub
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago

And we are not being flippant in saying that the term "Jehovah's Witness scholar" has the feel of an oxymoron.
Now THAT made me laugh.....
 
anewme
anewme 10 years ago

From the little I know or have read about the Mormon religion it falls into the category of the high control groups.
It has to be respected of course for the success within its own group which encourages people to accomplish.
But it comes down to another bunch of men telling me what to do and how to live my life and telling me Im not good enough unless I do this or that for them.
Im never falling for that again.
 
SickofLies
SickofLies 10 years ago

I dated a Mormon women once, much of what I know of their belief systems comes from her. I do agree with their idea about coffee being evil, I mean if you live here in Canada you can't help but notice how Tim Hortons is taking over the country. I also like their idea about there being three different levels of heaven, with the highest being for non-coffee drink peoples who never swear and such, the second is for people who drink coffee and swear occasionally, but are otherwise good people and the thrid is for the just alright people. I feel this system is fair is it encompases just about everyone who isn't actually evil. The idea I really like is being able to have multiple wives, I say bravo. Why should a man have to settle for just one woman?
 
Swan
Swan 10 years ago

I don't know, but I sure like their new show on HBO. I'm learning a lot about them and there are so many similarities between them and JWs, except the polygamy part. That thread on orgies comes close though.
Tammy
 
New Worldly Translation
New Worldly Translation 10 years ago

Bringham Young University
Isn't that the JW university for pedos and kiddy fiddlers?
Mormon beliefs are pretty weird. I'm not sure what 'serious scholars' are arguing for it's doctrines to be taken more seriously. Perchance they're all graduates of LDS universities.
I'm not sure about the inherent evil of Tim Hortons. When I visited Canada I lived on Subways and Tim Hortons coffee and donuts. Starbucks is different matter though, they're the bastard spawn of beelzebub himself
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

I thought they didn't go for coffee. See what I mean. Another control group. We had a Mormon church near us and it looked like JW coming out.
In field service I called on 2 Mormon elders. They were rude. Well I guess what did I expect. They do celebrate Holidays. Most don't practice the polygamy. 3 different levels to heaven?? What a bunch of poppycock!! Though, too, I've never been there (to heaven).

Juni
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 10 years ago



No, their belief system is not superior to JW's.


 How can you trust any religion that prohibits a good bottle of wine.
Rub a Dub
 
james_woods
james_woods 10 years ago

Their bible translation committee has truly put the NWT writers to shame...got it directly from the angel Moroni on tablets just like Moses did, and knocked out the whole thing in a few weeks insted of 14 years!
I also say a court TV episode showing that they actually spawned the king of all american document forgers until he got too greedy and started trying to be an imitation Unibomber...
However: let's consider this while reconsidering the multiple marriage angle -
I have heard that "holy underwear" does not exactly come from Fredericks of Hollywood...and it is probably just for Mormon missionary boys and not da ladies?
Sure sounds like a reasonable and dignified belief system to me...
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 10 years ago

Confucius say;
"Every man loves the smell of his own shit."
I think we're debating whether the droppings of raccoons are smellier than those of badgers...
Different story, same shit.
Historically they are both la-la, of as dodgy a provenance as "Château de Vin Lac" made from a blend of European wines... ack...
... the fact the Morons are less Mormonic, er, moronic than Dubbies doesn't mean they aren't morons. It's a spectrum of Moronitude.
Mormons also are better at PR, and due to their support of HE, actually have quite educated people in charge somewhere, in far more significant numbers than the Borg.
I'd say that Mormon's beliefs tend to be less harmful than JW's, but at the end of the day it's far more about believing some 19th Century charlatan with a beard than god, whatifever that might be.
But intellectually substantial? They just have smarter apologists, that doesn't make their beliefs more intellectually substantial.
 
juni
juni 10 years ago

As in - who is more stupid? an idiot or an imbicile?
Juni
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 10 years ago

That's easy; an idiot has an IQ below 20, an imbecile has an IQ around 70. At least, those were the definitons...
 
mdb
mdb 10 years ago

Mormons I don't feel are as over the top as JW, but they still dictate your life. ; They place great emphasis on family which is good, but they still like to butt in on personal lives which is not.
I wouldn't be so sure.
Go to http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm to read on some of their doctrines, etc.
Have you ever read their temple ceremony? It is REALLY messed up. They say that it was given to them by God and that it cannot be altered (claim equality to the ceremonies given to Israel for the temple). In the 1990's, the ceremony was drastically altered and approx. 50% of it was changed.
If you ever have a Mormon come to your door, ask them about the undergarment that they have to wear throughout their life. It has a compass, square, and rule (Masonic) stitched into them. The compass over the left breast, square over the right breast, and the rule over the right knee. They won't talk about it though because it is sacred and they are forbidden to talk about anything that goes on in their temples.


 
juni
juni 10 years ago

GOOD ANSWER, GOOD ANSWER
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago

That's easy; an idiot has an IQ below 20, an imbecile has an IQ around 70. At least, those were the definitons...
So, let's see, are you saying all the EX-JWs were former idiots or imbeciles ?
 

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Do Mormons have a more intellectually substantial belief system than JWs?
by slimboyfat 10 years ago 22 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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blondie
blondie 10 years ago

I don't understand why some people surmise that you have to be unintelligent or unintellectual to be part of a cult............................Steve Hassan was on his way to becoming a well-educated man at Queens College when he became a Moonie...
I know of many people who became JWs that were college-educated.
Look at the people associated with Scientology and the Moonies.
I have found that LDS/Mormons have many cult characteristics in common with the WTS as well as the Moonies and that one's level of education does not guarantee that you won't be caught up in it. I wonder if there is a correlation between Mormons that go to non-LDS universities and those who don't and their likelihood to remain with their religion.
Blondie
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago

ABSOLUTLY Blondie !
Becoming involved in a cult has nothing to do with intellectual agility. Many factors are involved, including, state of mind, and environment.
steve
 
wozadummy
wozadummy 10 years ago

Here's what I remember from being a baptised mormon ,
Missionaries were once only American men ,well educated
They encourage education
Tithe 10% ,when I was a kid mother was a mormon dad not, he had a strike at work for ages and we were literally eating donated dog bones from the butcher, no help from the church, but I remember standing next to Mother and two elders with an envelope asking for the 10% from her house keeping accrued since the strike started.
They molest kids just the same
All but one missionary who used to visit us retuned to the USA and became bi-sexual or homosexual
Negro people could not marry in the Temple ,or marry whites(looked down upon), had "the mark" so indeed were inferior to others
Baptise at age 8!
Males could do talks and sacraments at age 12
Only missionaries for 2 years then go back and get scholarships etc
60 minutes did a program on homosexual mormon men and the methods of ridding them by torture of their tendencies- attaching electric charging to their genitals whilst watching porno movies
Book of mormon-started history of writing about 600bc yet direct quotes from the King James bible are in it in the olde english which was only written 400 years ago !
I don't know whether they are REALLY that exceptional morally or INTELLECTUALLY
 

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Topic Summary
that seems to be the implication in a new evangelical response to mormonism called "the new mormon challenge: responding to the latest defenses of a fast-growing movement.".
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/asin/0310231949/qid%3d1142896789/202-9316169-3351050.
this books presents a sophisticated response from serious scholars in fields of theological and religious studies who bring their expertise to bear on controversial mormon truth claims.



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by blondie 4 months ago
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by Divergent 4 months ago



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Who is copying who? Jws or Mormons?
by stuckinarut2 a year ago 25 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

It amazes me!
Witnesses go on about how "blessed we are to have the website and all the content from Jehovah etc"
But I have been noticing the parallels between JWs and the Mormons!
For example, the jws video on "what's a real friend?" has been trumpeted to be the best form of education for young ones, but a simple search brings up the Mormon website and their equivalent videos!
https://www.lds.org/youth/video/a-true-friend?lang=eng
so, Who is copying who?
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Here is the Mormon site for youth...
( seems much better than anything "Jehovah" is providing through jw.org!)
https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth?cid=YS-M-youthstrength&lang=eng
However, note how similar the methods of indoctrination are! They even have the "leaders" address them just like the GB address our witness youth....
Very similar indeed.
Now I am not advocating mormons in any way, but simply showing that the claims that witnesses make about the uniqueness of the jw.org website is simply ludicrous.....
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

Same but different. Check out the advice on education....

Some of my friends are dropping out of school to get jobs. I don’t really like school either, but I know education is important. What should I do?

“You are moving into the most competitive age the world has ever known. All around you is competition. You need all the education you can get. Sacrifice a car; sacrifice anything that is needed to be sacrificed to qualify yourselves to do the work of the world. That world will in large measure pay you what it thinks you are worth, and your worth will increase as you gain education and proficiency in your chosen field” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “A Prophet’s Counsel and Prayer for Youth,” New Era, Jan. 2001, 8).

The day I see that advice on jw.org is the day I regain my faith.
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

the uniqueness of the JW.ORG website is the ever growing and unmatched number of languages wherein a massive amount of spiritual content can be obtained.

If you look at it on a worldwide scale Jehovah's Witnesses do a much better job. They exist for a shorter period of time but managed to get a much larger number of followers in almost any country outside of the U.S. For example in my (european) country all people have had witnesses at their doorstep but almost none ever saw a mormon show up.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Great find konceptual!
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

How about their section on dress and grooming, or honesty...
so very similar....
I reckon this just highlights that witnesses are not the unique people they claim to be!
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

ITKH - to save hijacking this thread I have starting a new one on the point you make about the relative success of JWs v Mormons worldwide. I'm interested in your response.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/287547/1/Preaching-is-a-waste-of-time
 
sir82
sir82 a year ago

It's pretty obvious that the JWs and the LDS have hired the same "image consultant" to oversee their internet propaganda efforts.
I'd love to know who it is.
 
Oubliette
Oubliette a year ago

Maybe the JWs can copy the Mormons and admit they have been wrong to hide their very flawed past!
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago

Just off the top of my head I would have to say

Why on earth would the Mormons want to copy the JWs.

THey are already doing better in every way.
 
BU2B
BU2B a year ago

I think the JWs are jealous of the Mormons success and copy them. The Mormons had family home evening, then the GB copied it and instituted family worship evening. Even the name is almost identical.
 
Separation of Powers
Separation of Powers a year ago

Mormons are one of the most commercial religions out there. They have rebranded themselves since the death of Gordon B. Hinckley who was quite successful at making them a major player in the global religious stage. Monson, their current prophet and his Quorum of the Twelve are quite astute at the need for commercialization and keeping up with technologies. Long before the JW's decided they should "televise" their Annual Meeting, the Mormons have been hooked up with their Salt Lake City Utah headquarters via satellite for decades......way behind the times JW's! Every thing that the JW's do from now on will be a copycat of the success of the LDS!
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley a year ago


the uniqueness of the JW.ORG website is the ever growing and unmatched number of languages wherein a massive amount of spiritual content can be obtained.
I don't see any "spiritual content" on JW.Org. What section is that in?
BS is BS, no matter how many languages it's translated into....
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago


BU2B - "I think the JWs are jealous of the Mormons success and copy them."
Wouldn't be the first time.
A lot of past anecdotal evidence suggested jealousy towards the RCC, and the similarities the WTS has with them at this point are pretty damn obvious.
x
It's like the WTS is morphing into a weird three-way hybrid of Protestantism, Catholicism, and Mormonism...
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

I wonder how average witnesses would react if shown the mormon website content? eg the section for youth
If the bits about the actual religion were somehow blanked out, I bet most witnesses would sit there nodding their heads and say things like "oh yes, jw.org is amazing!"
Then reveal to them that the content was from the LDS site and watch their head explode....
 
sir82
sir82 a year ago


weird three-way hybrid of Protestantism, Catholicism, and Mormonism
4th head would be some weird twisted interpretation of Orthodox Judaism....obedience more important than faith, well over 50% of their Biblical references from the OT, all of their "paradise earth" doctrine....
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

There is even a video on their site called "dare to stand alone"
It shows how to be different in the world and apart from the mormons going to war, it could be a video made by witnesses!
Or one video on resisting pornography. They even do an ancient dress up drama of king david!....It could be a witness convention drama!
Same same indeed.....
 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M a year ago

The jw.org is a web site. Nothing more nothing less. It has some pretty pictures. The content is so dumbed down that a viewer is not expected to learn anything. If this is god's spirit I am not impressed.
 
Zordino
Zordino a year ago

They should just merge and become the LDJWS. Lol
 
St George of England
St George of England a year ago

They should just merge and become the LDJWS. Lol

Would we get extra wives? Oh no, someone already mentioned they have dropped that idea!
George
 

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Who is copying who? Jws or Mormons?
by stuckinarut2 a year ago 25 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago


stuckinarut2 - "There is even a video on their site called 'dare to stand alone'..."


They should have used this as the background track:

 
Londo111
Londo111 a year ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/279533/1/Rumor-New-light-comes-from-outside-marketing-consultants
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/282341/1/LDS-ORG-OR-JW-ORG-PICK-YOUR-POSION#5066438
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/282304/1/Get-on-the-bus-JWs-and-Scientologists-are-looking-more-and-more-a-like
Add Scientology to the list of who is copying who...
 
Mum
Mum a year ago

Lots more Mormons than JW's are somewhat educated. The ignorant JW GB needs someone to give them ideas, as I cannot imagine one of them having an original thought. I've had many Mormon co-workers since I moved out west. Mormons appear much more "normal" than JW's in everyday life. The Mormons I've known are not preachy like JW's. They go on a 2-year mission, than pretty much go on with their lives, except the women, who don't really have a life.
 
steve2
steve2 a year ago

Imitation is the sincerest form of ignorance.
 
Simon
Simon a year ago

I think the WTS is copying the Mormons who are more successful / have more members despite even nuttier beliefs.
The WTS always had a slight homemade / amateur feel to everything but now they are getting way more corporate and media savvy.
In many ways they are catching up - they used to be a 'new age religion' but then got old and stale. They are trying to become hip and trendy again but even the catholic cutch is looking more progressive and with the times nowadays.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago


simon - "They are trying to become hip and trendy again..."
Yup.
Someone finally said, "wake up and smell the megachurch subculture!"
 

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Topic Summary
it amazes me!.
witnesses go on about how "blessed we are to have the website and all the content from jehovah etc".
but i have been noticing the parallels between jws and the mormons!.



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Mormon child indoctrination and Witness child indoctrination....
by stuckinarut2 a year ago 7 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

A great thread has already been started called "Caleb and Sofia have Mormon cousins.
It shows how Mormons also have cartoon characters to indoctrinate their kids.
Here is the link to their website section for kids and it shows all the topics they cover!
https://www.lds.org/friend/online-activities/videos/little-friends?lang=eng
eg
How to tithe
Visiting the Temple
Respecting and copying the Bishop
etc
I wonder what witnesses would think if they saw that Jw's are NOT unique with their website!?
It seems that the methods of indoctrination and manipulation are the same no matter what org people belong to.....
 
designs
designs a year ago

I remember visiting the LDS Temple in Salt Lake City as a kid, late 1950s. My mother, a lapsed JW at the time, was being recruited by the LDS pretty hard. Our family Dr. was a high ranking Mormon and a cousin of the LDS President. My mother had also gone to school Cleon Skousin the famous LDS author of The Naked Communist. As a family we went to hear Skousen speak after the book came out and I got to meet him.
At the Temple, if any of you go to visit, they have a film shown to all visitors, a nice piece of propaganda on J.Smith and Brigham Young.
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG a year ago

The GB would NEVER let a woman have credit for a film!!!!
 
Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane a year ago

The Rothschilds should just give up on the Mormons, Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. None of their re-branding, mind control tactics or doctrinal changes is yielding the desired results in any of these religions.
 
Mum
Mum a year ago

The JW's probably copycatted the idea of kids' cartoon characters from the Mormons. I can't imagine their ever having an original idea!
 
Simon
Simon a year ago

Has anyone gone from Mormon to JW or vice versa?
It's probably unlikely but would be interesting to know the differences from the same person.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions a year ago

Has anyone gone from Mormon to JW or vice versa?
I personally know of a mother/daughter who went from Mormonism to JWism.
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
Mormonism is "demonic" according to them.
Fascinating.
 
joe134cd
joe134cd a year ago

Yup I know of a jw who came out of Mormonism. But he did make the comment the only reason he went to the mormon church was for the sport.
 

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