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Sunday Washington Post: Gay Christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
by Balaamsass2 a year ago 9 Replies latest a year ago   social current
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Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 a year ago

Local
Gay Christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows
Despite encountering criticism, the LGBT community is finding greater acceptance, even in religious circles
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Josh Gonnerman and Eve Tushnet, both of Washington, are shown on Oct. 22 in the District. Gonnerman and Tushnet are gay and choosing the path of celibacy. (Ricky Carioti/The Washington Post) By Michelle Boorstein December 13 at 9:20 PM
When Eve Tushnet converted to Catholicism in 1998, she thought she might be the world’s first celibate Catholic lesbian.
Having grown up in a liberal, upper Northwest Washington home before moving on to Yale University, the then-19-year-old knew no other gay Catholics who embraced the church’s ban on sex outside heterosexual marriage. Her decision to abstain made her an outlier.
“Everyone I knew totally rejected it,” she said of the church’s teaching on gay sexuality.
Today, Tushnet is a leader in a small but growing movement of celibate gay Christians who find it easier than before to be out of the closet in their traditional churches because they’re celibate. She is busy speaking at conservative Christian conferences with other celibate Catholics and Protestants and is the most well-known of 20 bloggers who post onspiritualfriendship.org, a site for celibate gay and lesbian Christians that draws thousands of visitors each month.
Celibacy “allows you to give yourself more freely to God,” said Tushnet (rhymes with RUSH-net), a 36-year-old writer and resident of Petworth in the District. The focus of celibacy, she says, should be not on the absence of sex but on deepening friendships and other relationships, a lesson valuable even for people in heterosexual marriages.

When he came out in the mid-2000s, Josh Gonnerman says church leaders were not speaking about celibacy because they had “sort of thrown their lot in with the Republican Party.” (Ricky Carioti/The Washington Post)
Celibate Christian LGBT people are stepping out into the open for the same reason LGBT people in general are: Society has become so much more accepting, including in religious circles. But among conservative Christians, efforts toward more acceptance have collided with the basic teaching that sex belongs only among married men and women. The celibacy movement helps reconcile those concerns.
However, they are also met with criticism from many quarters, including from other gays and lesbians who say celibacy is both untenable and a denial of equality.
“We’ve been told for so long that there’s something wrong with us,” said Arthur Fitzmaurice, resource director of the Catholic Association for Lesbian and Gay Ministry. Acceptance in exchange for celibacy “is not sufficient,” he said. “There’s a perception that [LGBT] people who choose celibacy are not living authentic lives.”
The reaction among church leaders themselves has been mixed, with some praising the celibacy movement as a valid way to be both gay and Christian. But others have returned to the central question of how far Christianity can go in embracing homosexuality — even if people abstain from sex.

Al Mohler, president of the flagship Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and one of the country’s most respected conservative evangelical leaders, said in an interview that there is “growing and widespread admiration” for Tushnet and others, including Wesley Hill, an evangelical scholar who founded the spiritualfriendship blog.
Given that LGBT people are coming out and “being welcomed,” he said, “it is now safe and necessary to discuss these things aloud in evangelical churches — and that’s hugely important.”
But echoing the ambivalence of some conservative Christians, Mohler said he believes that sexual orientation can change “by the power of the Gospel.” He said he is not comfortable with the way in which some celibate gay Christians proudly label themselves as gay or queer.

Eve Tushnet grew up in a liberal, upper Northwest D.C. home before moving on to Yale University. “Everyone I knew totally rejected it,” she says of the church’s teaching on gay sexuality. (Ricky Carioti/The Washington Post)
“Even if someone is struggling with same-sex attraction, I’d be concerned about reducing them to the word ‘gay,’ ” Mohler said.
Josh Gonnerman, 29, a theology PhD student at Catholic University, writes for the spiritualfriendship site and speaks easily about embracing his gayness. When he came out in the mid-2000s, Gonnerman says, church leaders weren’t speaking about celibacy because they had “sort of thrown their lot in with the Republican Party” and wouldn’t talk inclusively in any way about LGBT people. The LGBT group he and Tushnet are part of at Cathedral of St. Matthew the Apostle, he said, has gone from more of a “support group” to something more upbeat that organizes social and spiritual activities for members — not all of whom accept church teaching on celibacy.
“There is this shift from the more negative to the more positive,” he said. “In the past, the Catholic approach was: ‘Oh, sucks for you’ [that you’re gay]. The emphasis was on the difficulty. Celibacy is being reimagined.”
Julie Rodgers was hired this fall to engage frankly with these topics. A lesbian, she is the first staffer charged with serving the gay and lesbian community in the chaplain’s office of Wheaton College, a highly prominent evangelical school in Illinois.
Raised in a conservative Southern Baptist home in Texas, Rodgers went through years of now-discredited “reparative therapy” — a practice purported to turn gay people straight that many conservative churches are abandoning. After deciding it was damaging, she embraced celibacy.
Rodgers avoids speaking too judgmentally but says she “can’t get behind” the idea that God would bless a same-sex relationship. She is focused, she said, on trying to heal injustices done to gay people by the church.
“Evangelicals are really trying to figure out what to do. There is a real panic about how to move forward. How do we think and talk about sexuality? We haven’t had a robust understanding around celibacy in the past,” she said. “We are trying to find a congruence between faith and spirituality that does not try to align with traditional marriage but does recognize that we can live without sex, but we can’t live without intimacy.”
But what does that intimacy look like, specifically?
The desire of these new celibacy advocates to emphasize the positive and to not have LGBT people defined by their sex lives has left what can look like a gaping hole: Virtual silence on the difficulty of not having sex. Or about sex in general. Many of the essays on the blog tend toward the academic, removed from physical human passions or desires.
Some say they are simply hesitant to speak or write publicly about topics, such as whether it’s okay to think about sex, or to masturbate, and whether they find celibacy difficult. Gay Christians considering or trying celibacy do sometimes discuss such things in private settings, Gonnerman says.
Tushnet, a writer, anticipates some of these questions in her memoir “Gay and Catholic,” which positions her as kind of a non-judgmental Dear Abby to the celibate LGBT set.
“How do I deal with crushes? In terms of physical affection, how far can you go?” she asks in a “Frequently Asked Questions” section in her book.
She urges people not to focus so much on the sex they can’t have and instead find other places to pursue intimacy, such as deeper friendships that could be seen as spouselike, co-living arrangements, public service and the arts as ways to express intimacy.
“I use the image of a kaleidoscope — the jewels inside are desires. If you turn it one way, it’s lesbianism. If you rearrange them, it can be community service or devotion to Mary,” she said during a recent interview.

But Tushnet knows her background makes it hard for her to identify with so many gay and lesbian people who experienced rejection and exclusion, having grown up in a nominally Jewish home in upper Northwest Washington, the daughter of two liberal law professors, and graduating from the liberal bastion of Yale. Before she became celibate, she had a positive experience in the mainstream gay community — something she thinks makes her a good envoy for celibacy.
“You can see love, solidarity and beauty in gay communities and still believe there is even more love and beauty in Christianity,” she says.
More typical is the experience of Charleigh Linde, 24, who said she was sick of “lying all the time” and came out last year to her community at the conservative evangelical megachurch McLean Bible, in Vienna, which she calls incredibly warm — “like family.” Her pastor told her she could remain as a leader of young adult ministry but only if she was celibate. Many at the church told her that they were praying for her to become straight, yet several of her McLean friends went with her last month to a conference called the Reformation Project, where hundreds of gay Christians trained at ways to promote what they see as full equality — not celibacy — at their conservative churches. These are people who aren’t comfortable with the liturgy or theology of liberal churches.
“Maybe it’s the service, or that they don’t put as much emphasis on the Bible. I wouldn’t want to go to a gay church because I don’t want that to be the focus. It’s about Jesus,” Linde said of affirming churches. The theology around celibacy doesn’t make sense to her either, and Linde now says she believes gay relationships are okay. She expects this will eventually force her to leave McLean. Yet she considers it progress that she remains — for now — in leadership as an openly gay person.
The Reformation Project was run by gay author Matthew Vines, whose recent popular book “God and the Gay Christian” was considered so dangerous by some conservative leaders that Mohler and others immediately penned a counter-argument book and made it available for free.

At the ground level are people like Lindsey and Sarah, a celibate lesbian couple who live in Northeast Washington. The women, who asked that their last names not be used for fear of harassment, write about their experience at aqueercalling.com. They hope to launch talks about intimacy and friendship — and not just the question of whether gay sex is a sin.
“It’s not that we don’t have moral convictions of our own, but we are tired of that conversation. We really wish people could look past the black and white thing,” Sarah said. “But since same-sex relationships are being talked about more openly, there’s more space to talk about celibacy — this is the ideal time to be having this conversation.”
 Michelle Boorstein is the Post’s religion reporter, where she reports on the busy marketplace of American religion
 
littlerockguy
littlerockguy a year ago


Square pegs forcing themselves into round holes.

LRG
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions a year ago

Can't possibly be gay.
Pants too loose.
Although there are the socks. . . . .
 +1 / -0
little_Socrates
little_Socrates a year ago

Many straight people choose to live a celibate lifestyle are they also a square peg in a round hole?

Being Catholic I gotta say I think my Church is somewhat progressive on this issue. ANY sex outside of marriage is frowned apon. So the teaching is just as hard for a hetrosexual as it is for a homosexual. Pre Marital Sex, Adultery, Homosexual Sex is all considered the same essentially. Many straight people don't live this teaching but nobody condems them. There should be no more condemnation for a homosexual.

You are who you are. Nobody really knows what makes one homosexual or another hetrosexual. Being yourself is not a sin. Having desires for homosexual sex is not a sin. However things we do can be sin.
 
Apognophos
Apognophos a year ago

I'm trying to figure out how anyone can be a celibate homosexual while also living together with someone of the same sex. Do they just not find each other attractive? Otherwise it sounds like a recipe for disaster.
 
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 a year ago

Seemed common to me as kid. We had a lot of "confirmed Bachelors" in our 60s hall, Circuit and Bethel. Later they were called NPGs. At the time our family considered it almost like hair color.- A little "odd", but no big deal.
 
littlerockguy
littlerockguy a year ago

I'm trying to figure out how anyone can be a celibate homosexual while also living together with someone of the same sex. Do they just not find each other attractive? Otherwise it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

You assume gay people want to have sex with every other gay person of the same sex? It doesn't work that way. Do you think that someone like me who is gay wants to have sex with all my other gay friends? Again, it doesn't work that way. There are a lot of factors that determine attractiveness to another individual.

LRG
 +1 / -0
Apognophos
Apognophos a year ago

I did allow for the possibility in my post that they are not attracted to each other. It still seems dangerous to me. I wouldn't be roommates with a girl if I was trying to remain celibate unless she was really not my type. People can grow more attracted to each other over time, keep in mind.
Anyway, I just found it odd that two gay women would choose to live together and think this would be good for their celibate lifestyle. Why not pick a random straight woman to live with, if they want to avoid temptation? It takes two to tango....
 
kaik
kaik a year ago

Evangelical movement find another heros of the crusades against gay people, a gay & lesbian people who do not have a sex. Decades ago, they prized gay people who married and breed children with opposite sex to show that they are not gay. In medieval times, when celibacy was prized as the highest virtue together with poverty and starvation, people often disfugured themselves to ensure they are not attractive. Women cut their noses and burned their breasts so nobody would tempt them, while men castrated themselves. So in their twisted reasoning, you can be gay in your mind, but you cannot engage in same sex relationship. They beat themselves in the chest how they sacrificed their sexuality and get paraded like did medieval beggers with leprosis in front of the church.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

All abstinence and no play makes Jack or Jill go squirrely.
 

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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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minimus
minimus 4 years ago

My Italian friend LOVES going to the "feasts" that occur in Italy, Boston or NYC. These feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "Viva (whomever)". They are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events. Now, many just don't seem to appreciate the significance and the occasion just isn't as revered by some as it once was....
Having said that, I look on in disbelief at the solemness of the event and am looking forward to having a peppers, onion and sausage sandwich along with gelato.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

And here we thought that the Mormon Tabernacle Quior was weird...
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

I had a very nice submarine club with avacado, black olives, onions, and jalepenos.
Just for the record.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

My gf has saints, crosses, and Jesus in her house. I smile to myself. I think it's just so silly.
And then of Course I regard all Catholic tradition as silly.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Sorry for you minimus, because there are millions of Catholics in the world, and I don’t think they have done anything to you, did they?
 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 4 years ago

Oh but Mini, the Catholic church has been around longer than anyone else, so it must be right.....
 
undercover
undercover 4 years ago

I Believe Religion And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!

FTFY
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

Sure catholics effect global politics. Africa would have more condoms if it werent for the church....so yes the catholics do something to all of us.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

Even with all the condoms in the world, Diest, Africa would still be Aftica.
 
undercover
undercover 4 years ago

The word 'condom' and the phrase, 'the Catholics do something to all of us' leaves one with a rather unpleasant vision...
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
You've had a bizarre anticatholic fixation on here for years.
To each his own.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

I don't think it's bizarre. (no more bizarre fixation than many of us to against the WT.)
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

FTFY, naught boy...UC.
 
Jomavrick
Jomavrick 4 years ago

Well you have to admit that Catholic rituals are far more interesting than Witness rituals. Rites, memorized prayers in Latin, the Uniforms and statues, pipe organs, the Vatican, the Vatican Museam, St Petes Basillica, the Cistine Chapel, Crucifixes, Exorcisms - its all so awesome!
Never mind that a few people got burned to the stake once in a while - its all a part of the fun! :smile:
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

I do admit, I'd love to see the Vatican. I just wouldn't start feeling "spiritual", I'm sure.
 
Jomavrick
Jomavrick 4 years ago

Minimus,
I highly recommend visiting it once. It just blew me away. Never had that spiritual feeling, but rather more amazement and awestruck at the scale and grandure and beauty of it all. Rivals all of the grand palaces I have ever laid my eyes on,,,,,,
 
undercover
undercover 4 years ago

The Vatican is impressive. I thoroughly enjoyed going there... but in the end, I was amazed at how much money the Catholic church has tied up in not just Vatican City, but all it's holdings throughout Europe.
Seeing firsthand how the Catholic church has amassed great wealth in creating ornate palaces to themselves instead of following Jesus' example of helping the poor and sick, it has done the opposite of inspiring me to see the 'church' as anything more than what I see the WTS... money grubbing, power wielding control freaks. They've just had two thousand years longer to get the job done (not to mention a few cruades, inquistions and countless deaths to apostates and heretics)
 
Jomavrick
Jomavrick 4 years ago

Undercover,
Totally agree with that, they have dilligently spent two thousand years raping, pillaging and plundering all of the major art works of the world. Kind of like the British that stole so many of the worlds treasures and carted them off to British Museums. Its unbeleiveable how much Rome has aquired.
But in the end its all an enterprising business isnt it?
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Stop the press, lots of guys steeped in anti-Catholicism as JWs remain anti-Catholic! Who'da guessed?
As for the rituals, I don't suppose I'd expect most xJWs to grasp them; even for me it takes getting used to, but we have all been subjected to the anti-religion / anti-philosophy that is the JW mindset. And Catholicism is a whole different mode of experiencing the world than most JWs are ever used to. I might experience the same thing if I were put back in time and witnessed a Roman or Jewish sacrifice. But, were I to see one and complain that I didn't experience a "religious feeling," I would know that's because my understanding of the people was deficient.
 
Jomavrick
Jomavrick 4 years ago

Sulla,
I really dont have a problem with Catholics or the Religion itself. It is more open minded in reality than JWs' are. Not as controlling at least the Modern Church. I understand the appeal of Catholisim and why a lot of people who are Jack Catholics and dont believe all the teaching still want to call them selves Catholic.
It is a far richer heritage than any other "Christian" religion by a long shot,,,,,
 

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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

It never ceases to amaze me the ignorant comments made by former JW's about Catholicism that were given their anti Cathoic bias by the Watchtower. Yeah, that makes a ot of sense.....
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

The Vatican is impressive. I thoroughly enjoyed going there... but in the end, I was amazed at how much money the Catholic church has tied up in not just Vatican City, but all it's holdings throughout Europe.
True, but what else would they spend it on?
 
Nambo
Nambo 4 years ago

I like the ones where they wheel out the preserved corpse of some dead "saint" and you get to kiss the blackened toes, nothing weird about that, just think how much more exciting JW conventions would be if they had embalmed Russell and Rutherford and you could get to meet them and shake their wiethered hands, no wonder the Catholic Church is the biggest in the world, they really know how to do religion.
 
mindseye
mindseye 4 years ago

Though not Catholic by a long shot, I dig Catholicism on an aesthetic level. The rich history, iconography and rituals are cool. And I dig the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Church even more. They have better incense, rituals, and iconography without the legalism of the Catholic church. But despite what the pope says, many Catholics don't give a $%&*. Catholicism is much more of a cultural thing among the Catholics I know. It's something most JWs don't identify with at all, because they are disconnected by the richness of ancient tradition and culture. It's all 'reasoning from the scriptures' to them.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Our culture in the west comes from the heritage of the Catholic church. The Vatican is impressive, and why shouldn’t be? It contains the history of Christianity and Europe for almost 2000 years, starting shortly after Jesus death.
They are involved in politics, yes a lot of priest and Jesuits have been assassinated for supporting social justice in Salvador and in other places.
Catholics use contraceptives and nobody bothers them with that. Not sure where that policy originates, but would be interesting to find out who is responsible for it, as they know nobody follows it.
Africa’s problems have nothing to do with Catholicism, in fact there are a lot of missions and npo helping the people there in exchange for nothing.
The church has not burned anyone in a few centuries. Protestants also killed thousands of people in the middle ages. Thankfully things have improved considerably since then.
If anything they are the ones being persecuted now, during the II WW and the Spanish civil war for example very cruelly, or nowadays by being constantly mocked and insulted by people that would do well having only a tenth of the culture and respect for others they have.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

Nothing sadder than seeing the persecuter get persecuted. Breaks my heart. What next a bully getting bullied?

The Catholics bring the scorn upon themselves just like the JWs. Ireland is ground zero for their self distruct. They had a greater preportion of sex abuse case than any other country. They have lost their religion in great numbers just since 2005. Ireland finally pulled their embassy from the Vatican last November.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

I was raised and baptised a catholic...and yes...now that I look back on it..it is weird...although it all seemed very normal at the time.
I didn't bring my daughter up religious at all...she knew how I felt about god and stuff. But I didn't make here do anything as far as any religion is concerned.
Her first exposure to Cathoicism was a Catholic funeral about a year ago. It was her freinds mothers, and she could not get over how weird it all was...she said it actually gave her the creeps.
I guess when you are brought up within a religion, or any religion for that matter, you accept all the strangeness of it as normal. I found it interesting hearing her reaction because I never said anything in particular about anything catholic to her. And she had never been exposed to all the pomp and ceremony before.
The things she found funniest though was all the standing and sitting...she couldn't figure it out..LOL
It wasn't until she told me how she saw the catholic rituals that I saw them with different eyes. Religion is ODD, but when your mind is religionafied (is that a word?, it should be lol), it's easy to replace one with another thinking it is all normal.
 
finally awake
finally awake 4 years ago

I'm not a fan of Catholics, but it has nothing to do with being a witness. My father is Catholic and he abandoned me as a baby and couldn't have cared less whether I lived or died. So, as far as I'm concerned, being a faithful Catholic did nothing for his morals or integrity.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"I'm not a fan of Catholics, but it has nothing to do with being a witness. My father is Catholic and he abandoned me as a baby and couldn't have cared less whether I lived or died. So, as far as I'm concerned, being a faithful Catholic did nothing for his morals or integrity"

You can't judge a medicine by those that don't take it.
 
mindseye
mindseye 4 years ago

Diest - Sure, Catholicism throughout history has brought much scorn upon itself. But one difference I notice between individual Catholics and JWs is the intellectual freedom to criticize their organization on a number of issues. There's Gay Catholics, pro-choice Catholics, and a number of other Catholics who hold positions contrary to the church. Another telling example is sex-abuse scandals - I've heard many Catholics strongly criticize their church on this matter, whereas most JWs tend to ignore the issue in their religion.
finally awake - I can understand how you could have your view after your experience. I find that there is usually not a direct correlation between morals and religion.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

Still thinking, thanks for your truthful expressions.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

Isidore , Catholicism is odd. Sorry.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

I've heard many Catholics strongly criticize their church on this matter, whereas most JWs tend to ignore the issue in their religion.
Most of the Catholics I know that critisize the church because of child abuse are EX Catholics. Current catholics tend to make exuses or go on about how good they are that they dealt with it.
My son went to a catholic school a couple of years ago, purely because my friend said it was a good school..I pulled him out after a few months because of a boy who was sexually abused in the toilets by a senior boy. I told the principle about it...he swept it under the carpet. Nothing much has changed. It just looks that way.

Oh, and by the way, my son thought the whole church thing was weird too....guess you have to be acclimated to accept religion as something other than ODD.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 years ago

I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
Wouldn't that be a good description toward all religions though ?
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Wouldn't that be a good description toward all religions though ?
Yup
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 years ago

Organized religion is man made ................................................ and you can tell
 
mindseye
mindseye 4 years ago

Most of the Catholics I know that critisize the church because of child abuse are EX Catholics
Might just be the ones that I know, liberal-minded Catholics who identify with the theology and tradition but disagree on many issues. And I'm not defending Catholicism as a whole, I know much is screwed up about it (which is why I never plan on being one). I just see some intellectual flexibility within the tradition that is not found in much more 'fundamentalist' religions.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

I think it takes intellectual flexibilty to be a Catholic...LOL...so I would have to agree...
 
myelaine
myelaine 4 years ago

dear still thinking...
you stated: "My son went to a catholic school a couple of years ago, purely because my friend said it was a good school..I pulled him out after a few months because of a boy who was sexually abused in the toilets by a senior boy. I told the principle about it...he swept it under the carpet. Nothing much has changed. It just looks that way."...
did you bring your information to the police?
love michelle
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Yes...after waiting for the principle to act...the principle did NOTHING about it.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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myelaine
myelaine 4 years ago

well, hopefully he is more responsive now...if he still has his job
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Oh, he's still there....And probably will be until he retires.
 
jam
jam 4 years ago

still thinking; "The things she found funnist though was
all the standing and sitting", LOL. I found that to be amusing
also, but great work out for your rear.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 4 years ago

I view all Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religions as being false. As such, most of their rituals are silly, strange, and weird. The ones that aren't are actually stolen from pagan religions--the likes of Christmas and Ashtar (Easter) were once pagan festivals that were Christianized. And I prefer the original versions of those holidays.
I never did like the gods of right-hand path religion. They always seem to work against nature. It is a sin to enjoy your sex life. Materialism is wrong. Homosexuality a sin. Women being second-class, or worse, citizens. You are supposed to go into foreign lands to make disciples. Yet, none of those three religions that make a big deal of these issues fuss against torture of innocent people, invasion of national culture, and enslaving people (often including sending them off where they do not belong). Forced integration, usually working against all involved, usually follows when slaves are "released(??)". They never gain back their integrity when they are forced into a "melting pot", as compromise is always required. Yet, all three of the right-hand path religions are guilty of perpetrating this degradation of the whole human race.
Rather, the original pagan religions and their Gods and Goddesses actually made more sense. These were the original religions, and taught that mankind could develop our souls. Each group was optimized, and the festivals actually made sense. You never had people being stifled because of sexual orientation (which can change during the course of one's life and is naturally bisexual in most people), gender (women were valued citizens, not second class), or because they wanted to improve society.
Illustrate: I believe most people prefer Christmas where they do the tree and decorations, shop, bake, send cards, enjoy company they rarely see (even though sometimes it irritates them), wrap presents, and open up the presents. From an economic point, such is inefficient--yet people still do it. This means it has spiritual value that exceeds the "deadweight" loss. But, how many small children like the church part more than the above when they are being honest?
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

WTWizard really, really hates something he knows absolutely nothing about.
 
panhandlegirl
panhandlegirl 4 years ago

I became a Cathoic a few years after I was df'd. My family had always been Catholic until my parents decided to change religions. One thing I was inpressed with was that when you go to church, you go there to worship, not to
study to prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong. I confess that I don't believe everything they teach, but I don't believe everything anyone tells me. As someone else stated, you can expess your opinion about the
Church without the fear of getting df'd. And, yes, I am aware that the Church has done some horrible things and how they conducted themselves about the pedophiles was also terrible. I think they have changed. I have known
some very good priests. There are good people and bad people everywhere.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

Sulla, this seems to be typical of WTWizard and others on the site.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Isidore, could you please be more explicit?
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Oh but Mini, the Catholic church has been around longer than anyone else, so it must be right.....
Actually, the Orthodox Church considers the Roman Church to be the first protestant church. The RC has deviated a lot, including celibate clergy.
I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
You've had a bizarre anticatholic fixation on here for years.
It's residual JW influence. They mouth off about the RC constantly. My daughter tells me that the JW's drilled into her brain how evil religion, other than theirs, is so now she has a hard time with churches especially. A lot of ex-JW's have the JW attitude towards churches and even sometimes the rest of religion. Point that out though and you might get yelled at for forty pages. Being JW's influenced all of us and try as we might, we can never erase all of it from our psyches or pasts.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

I was raised in the Episcopal church, which is Anglican Catholic. I find great beauty and comfort in the rituals and music of the church. Not all of them are even remotely silly. I have to say though, the Anglicans dropped a lot of the rituals the RC church does, like the ones Mini mentioned in his OP.
I remember when I was confirmed into the church, the whole church chanted Veni Sancte Spiritus, which means Come Holy Spirit in latin. It's a beautiful song and chant and very moving when all the light is by candle. This is a Gregorian chant. This version here isn't as pretty as being there in the church when 300 voices surround you, chanting. The soloists aren't as good as they were they night at St. Mark's. It will still give you an idea of the beauty. The harp is a nice part of this particular arrangement.

&feature=related
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

It's residual JW influence...FHN
How dismissive of someones valid opinion...I was a catholic...is it residual JW influence for me too?
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Catholic services in the USA are quite plain now. The only beautiful Catholic service I have seen was Andy's grandmother's funeral mass. It was prettier than his sister's weddings. There was incence burned and the black shroud over her casket. The music was gorgeous.
 
jam
jam 4 years ago

Do all understand the words in the song? Sounds nice,
but what are they singing about. Like talking in tongues.
What,s the point.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

I like some religious songs...even if they are in a language I don't understand. In fact, sometimes they sound nicer if I can't understand the language....LOL
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

"I'm not a fan of Catholics, but it has nothing to do with being a witness. My father is Catholic and he abandoned me as a baby and couldn't have cared less whether I lived or died. So, as far as I'm concerned, being a faithful Catholic did nothing for his morals or integrity"
The Roman Catholic Church would never encourage, nor approve of your father abandoning you. They are very pro family and marriage. The blame for leaving you, sadly lays squarely at your father's feet.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Yeah, the WTS is pro family too....LOL
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

The big difference is that the Catholic Church doesn’t control you or your life, as the WT does.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Still, I am sure the JW's have a lot of influence on your views, but your feelings growing up count, too. I was raised mostly in Mobile and SE Louisiana. I had mostly RC friends. Some of them have not remained Catholics and some have. I can't say that the JW influence on me doesn't affect my views of some churches. I'd have to think about it pretty hard and in depth. I know that the JW influence over me politically makes me nearly cringe over the American flag which in its self is a form of religious icon or idol.
 
jam
jam 4 years ago

Yes , but If I,am there to here the word of GOD, (singing
is form of worship) I want to make damn sure what he
is saying to me. If half the service is in a language I don,t
understand, what,s the point.
Seriously, how many Catholics know Latin.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

I have strong feelings about fundamentalist churches and the Mormon church. I can say I felt strongly about fundamentalist churches before my JW coma. The Mormon Church, I have to say I believe the JW's have a strong influence on my feelings today.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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Why My Wife and I Have No Kids
by JT 14 years ago
Island Man
Wisdom in "the Word of God". Really? What Watchtower got wrong at this week's Congregation "Bible" Study.
by Island Man a year ago
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Lorenz Reibling gives interview about real estate
by OrphanCrow 9 months ago
GrownMidget
Long Story of my Life/Experience
by GrownMidget 4 months ago
Freeandclear
I had a bizarre dream the other night
by Freeandclear a month ago



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Jam, the RC doesn't do their services in Latin since Vatican II which came in 1968. The song I referenced is sung in both Latin and English, so you can know what the Latin lyrics are by listening to the corresponding verses in English.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"Jam, the RC doesn't do their services in Latin since Vatican II which came in 1968. The song I referenced is sung in both Latin and English, so you can know what the Latin lyrics are by listening to the corresponding verses in English."

This actually is not true. I am a Roman Catholic, and I attend the Latin Mass, known as the Tridentine Form, exclusively. The Mass in the vernacular is the normative and it is not the exclusive. And Vatican II concluded in 1965. The Mass in the vernacular, known as the "Novus Ordo" was not promulgated until 1970.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

Apostatetheunder, when I get some time, I'll be more than happy to answer your question.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

Actually, the Orthodox Church considers the Roman Church to be the first protestant church. The RC has deviated a lot, including celibate clergy.

Celibacy of the priest is a discipline that goes back all the way to first century. It is something that if the Church wishes, She can change. After being JW's, I think we can all see the wisdom in seeing a priest not having the distractions of family and have themselves available at all times for their parishes.

You'll have to be more specific about the Orthodox churches, since there about 13 of them, with no central leadership. They are broken down along nationalistic lines. They, like the Anglicans, broke with Holy See in Rome.
John 17:21-22
[21]That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Still, I am sure the JW's have a lot of influence on your views, but your feelings growing up count, too/...FHN
How interesting...since I was raised catholic...I don't think JW's influenced me about what I think about catholicism...since I thought this before I ever met any JW's.
You cannot right off peoples views of catholicism as influenced by JW thinking. Otherwise, I could say you only continue to like religion because of JW thinking. How valid would that be to you personally FHN?
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Still, I don't write off your feelings or anyone else's. If people have never been JW's, then the JW's don't influence them. Those of us who've been JW's? We all have feelings about about religion, churches, politics, etc. Then comes in the JW's, who make a huge deal about the evils in religion and churches and politics, which is one sided and way off balance. It doesn't mean that all opinions and feelings we have, come directly from the JW's, but the JW brainwash does taint us, in remnants. I'll admit it, their influence still affects me at times. The hatred towards the world and religion isn't something easily dismissed. We can drop most of it, but the influence is still there, in subtle ways. Terry made a good thread about the JW influence on all of us, in the past month or so.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

The JW's make fun of the Catholic Church. They laugh at "worldly people" and politicians, etc. That's more of what I am talking about. They write off and dismiss the things that mean very much to millions of people. That rubs off on all of us. I can't say that I wonder at times about certain RC rituals.
I absolutely love the Black Jesus in Madonna's Like A Prayer video.



 
talesin
talesin 4 years ago


After being JW's, I think we can all see the wisdom in seeing a priest not having the distractions of family and have themselves available at all times for their parishes.

(emphasis on 'all' is mine)

Um, speak for yourself, please.

The Orthodox Churches here have married priests (both the Greek Orthodox and the Coptic (?) or Lebanese Orthodox churches), as do the Anglicans and Lutherans. They do JUST FINE taking care of their parishes, because they are PAID FULL TIME CLERGY, who are also given free housing as part of their salary. That is to say, professionals at what they do, who usually have a Master's degree in theology.

What I see, is a marvelous opportunity for pedophiles. Many priests are, of course, dedicated to helping people and serving their parish, but many are filthy perverts. We just had a local bishop jailed for possession and distribution of child porn, and the diocese is trying to sell off its many holdings in order to pay restitution to the victims of pedophilia of another convicted priest from the same diocese.

My ex, and two of my closest friends, refer to themselves as 'recovering Catholics' - and none of them had any association with Jehovah's Witnesses before they knew me. They see the Church as little more than a money-grubbing power structure. Many people have turned on religions, and it has NOTHING to do with being a Jehovah's Witness.

Let's not forget that Rome colluded with the Nazis. So as far as the Church of Rome is concerned, money and power are pre-eminent. No birth control? Of course - that means more members. I have a friend, 39 years old, who got back-handed for telling his mother that the priest molested him. That was in the 1980s! The Catholic Church is just another controlling, power- and money-hungry religion.

I am going to a funeral on Saturday with two good friends. They are both practicing Catholics. We had dinner together before Christmas, and I asked how they now felt about the church. Their answer was similar to many JWs --- it's all I know ... where else would I go?



 
Jeffro
Jeffro 4 years ago

Sorry for you minimus, because there are millions of Catholics in the world, and I don’t think they have done anything to you, did they?
Huh? minimus didn't say he wants anything bad to happen to any particular Catholics or Catholics in general.
Whether they have done anything bad to him has nothing at all to do with assessment of their beliefs as irrational.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

That is an opinion. For me what is irrational is looking at the Universe and don’t believe there is a Creator. But I don’t insult people that believe there isn’t any.
The Church can not be compared to the WT, sorry.
 
Jeffro
Jeffro 4 years ago

For me what is irrational is looking at the Universe and don’t believe there is a Creator. But I don’t insult people that believe there isn’t any.
Actually, you kind of just did.
 
Jeffro
Jeffro 4 years ago

The Church can not be compared to the WT, sorry.
He didn't. But that's not to say that valid comparisons cannot be made. Both rely on belief in irrational stories with no evidence.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Official celibacy imposed on RC priests began centuries after the first century. I first learned about the history of the celibacy of priests when I heard Father George Darling give a sermon that explained how it was introduced into the church. That was at St. Pius Catholic Church in Grandville, Michigan. The history is easily researched and is well known in the modern church. It was introduced because of the land the churches occupied and inheritance rights. And it was much later than the 1st century.
The Orthodox Church is one church. There are Bishops in Russia, Greece and other countries. The bishop of Rome broke from the Orthodox Church when he decided he should have greater power. It's a myth that the Eastern Church broke away from Rome. Rome was only part of the greater Orthodox church. Rome had a bishop like Greece had a bishop.
In today's RC churches the masses are done in the local languages. That doesn't mean that some masses won't have latin, but go into any normal Sunday mass and you will find it is spoken in the local language. You can even find masses in latin in Anglican churches, but it isn't the norm, it's special.
You're right about Vatican Council II and the dates. I typed in 68 because of a discussion I had with an Anglican priest who left the RC church over the council, which led to discussions happening in 1968 that were the final straw. This final straw had to do with women in the church and birth control.
There is a lot that I do not agree with going on in the RC. Celibacy of priests, not ordaining women, the ban on birth control are three of the biggest problems I see, as well as bad decisions concerning child molestation in the church.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

RESPECTFULLY FHN, THERE ARE A FEW THINGS ON THIS THREAD YOU ARENT 100% ON.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Diest:
Africa would have more condoms if it werent for the church....
Truth be told, only very few Catholics give up contraception because the church says so. The fact that the number of children per family has been going steadily down, for many years, is proof of that.
My grand-aunt had six children, all in their fifties and sixties now, because she couldn't use contraception. The reason was never the church, but the fact that she had some very bad reactions to contraceptives. And of course my grand-uncle wouldn't use a condom, but - believe me - the church never had anything to do with that.
The Catholic church is responsible for many ills, but people not using contraception is not one of them. Sometimes it's comfortable to blame someone else and use that to give it a shroud of respectability.
Where I live, in years past some men didn't want their women to use contraception because they were afraid the wives would cheat on them and they would never find out. The idea was, "if she cheats on me, she will get pregnant and I will know". So not using contraceptives was seen as some kind of protection against cheating. People also said that they would have "as many children as the Lord sends", but the Lord had nothing to do with that.
If you have lived in a religion that has such tight control over its faithful it is easy to think that the Catholic Church can also control people. The truth is that, at least nowadays, it can't.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Someone - I forget who - said that the Catholic church was active in liberating people, for example in El Salvador. This person specifically mentioned the Jesuits, some of whom where horribly killed there.
That the Jesuits were "freeing" anyone is open to debate. I attended a college that was at least nominally Catholic and belongs to the Jesuits. There, we had to take a mandatory subject, called "Theological Reflection about Reality". One of the priests made us watch a specific movie, "The Mission", as an example of the good role that the Jesuits could play in liberating the opressed.
Somebody here may have watched that movie. It's about how the Portuguese and the Spanish destroyed the "reductions" the Jesuits had built in Paraguay. The Jesuits had created communities of Indians who would all live communally and worked together. During the daytime, the men would go to work the fields following a "saint" in a procession, and singing. They would return in the afternoon in the same fashion. The women stayed in the reduction doing other chores. In this way, the Jesuits were able to accumulate wealth, and that was what attracted the greed of the Portuguese and the Spanish. And the movie ends with some brave Jesuits, one of them being Robert de Niro, dying while they fight for the Indians.
Actually, the reductions were places where the Indians were never allowed to choose what they wanted. They were kept as perpetual children, and the church, of course, was entitled to lead them. The fact that a Jesuit in the 20th century would fail to notice that is in itself depressing, and it was one of the first reasons I had to walk slowly away from the Catholic Church. One has to wonder whether the Jesuits didn't achieve their ideal when they created the "reductions".
It is said that the Jesuits created ETA, the terrorist Basque organization. I know for a fact that they were involved in many a revolt in Latin America. Some of them died, like the ones in El Salvador, but others didn't. They just encouraged the young to fight.
I wonder to what extent a Liberation Theologian like the priest who made us watch that movie could be trusted to be promoting anybody's liberation. I believe they had a very particular definition of freedom.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago




 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

The Catholic church is responsible for many ills, but people not using contraception is not one of them.
Andy's RC mother had her tubes tied after baby 3. Baby 3 grew up to be a staunch supporter of the RC policy on birth control. We wonder how that will change if she ends up pregnant with a 3rd child. She sat in my living room kind of upset over the RC secular employees getting coverage for birth control. She told us that people shouldn't be sexually active unless they are married and then they need to use the RC "family planning method."
Here in the USA, some modern Catholic women are staunchly against using birth control pills, diaphragms, IUDs, etc.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Dgp, you are right, and that just proves the point, you can be part of the Church and still be your own person, with your own opinions.
The WT is totalitarian, you need to conform, or else.
They support two completely different ways of seeing the world. I prefer the one where I can exercise my right to disagree safely.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

Jeffro, thank you for your defense.
Catholics have done nothing to me...lol.
I just think The Church is odd. I don't feel that way toward all religions because some do not promote mysticism and eerieness.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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Long Story of my Life/Experience
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by Freeandclear a month ago



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"Let's not forget that Rome colluded with the Nazis. So as far as the Church of Rome is concerned, money and power are pre-eminent."

Talesin, there was a time I was ignorant as you are about this and condemned the Church in regards to this subject.
That Pope Pius XII saved 800,000 Jewish lives, hiding Jews in monasteries, convents, and inside the Vatican itself; that he got to the Jews money for travel; that he issued fake baptismal certificates so they could pass as Christian; that he was praised by Jews at the end of the war (by everyone from Golda Meir to the Communist Albert Einstein) as a "righteous gentile"; that his was called by the New York Times the only voice among the silence on the topic of the Jewish persecutions; that the Chief Rabbi of Rome was so impressed by this Pope's holiness and heroism toward his fellow Hebrews that he took his name when he converted to Catholicism -- these things have been written about by people much more talented than I. Remember that ignored in the singular focus on the tragedy of the Jewish "holocaust" is the destruction of Christians that took place simultaneously: not only were Catholics also murdered by Nazis (3,000,000 in Poland alone!), but, at the same time, 15 million Christians were being murdered by our ally, "Uncle Joe" Stalin, much-beloved by FDR, American liberals, and American media. Where are the outrage, the memorials in every major American city, the Hollywood movies, the PBS specials, the "Christian 'holocaust' education programs" in public schools, the slogans, the defense leagues, the apologies for them? Where's even a mention of it in the typical American High School textbook? Why "the silence"? And why the double standard?
And as you read all this, for the love of all that is Holy, realize that Pope Pius XII was in between a rock and a hard place. He was in Vatican City, surrounded by Rome, in the middle of Mussolini's fascist Italy. On one side of him he had Communism, which was slaughtering Christians in astronomical numbers, a movement led predominantly by Jews, and on whose side the Allies entered the war. On the other side of him, he had pagan racist Nazism that was, in part, a reaction against Communism, but which was just as anti-Christian. He was against both of these evil idealogies (see his Encyclical Summa Pontificatus) but was hardly in a position to do much about either in a hugely public way without increasing the slaughter of both Jews and Christians. Pius XII did what he humanly could, as publicly as possible, and most powerfully and effectively behind the scenes. The world knew this during and after the war; it has forgotten since the ascendancy of cultural Marxism that has changed our culture to one that is thoroughly anti-Christian -- most especially anti-Catholic.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Flying: Yes, there are some Catholics like that. But they are a very tiny minority.
Someone commented that these days you can belong to the Church and still be yourself. Yes, but that was not the case at some point in history. I don't remember the name of the unfortunate Peruvian who was sent to the Inquisition on the grounds that he worked too hard. That was proof that he was Jewish.
At some point in history, the authorities of the University of Cervera, in Catalonia, wrote the King a letter where they rejected "that terrible mania of thinking". That was when the King was also the defender of the faith.
And let's not forget the index, the list of forbidden books. I remember that, as a child, I read Taras Bulba, by Gogol. The index had been abolished by then but the book still had the words "Without eclesiastical approval". I couldn't find anything condemnable there, other than the fact that the Catholic Poles were presented as ruthless while the cossacks were the heroes. You could not read The Life of Lazarillo de Tormes and of His Fortunes and Adversities, which is one of the foundational works of the Spanish language, simply because a priest in the story was also a thief. Et cetera.
Mexican writer Juan Rulfo said that he read many of the forbidden books at the house of the local priest. The priest was very active in confiscating that literature, he wrote, but he kept all those books in his personal library, where young Juan could read them at leisure.
When I first visited this site and began to learn about the Watchtower, one of the things that I immediately grasped, but could not point a finger at, was just how similar repression can be in both the Watchtower and the Catholic Church. I don't think it is an accident that Catholics convert to the WT.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

Talesin, there was a time I was ignorant as you are about this and condemned the Church in regards to this subject.
So did I, because I believed what the JWs had taught me on the subject. As it turns out, it was not true.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"The Orthodox Church is one church. There are Bishops in Russia, Greece and other countries. The bishop of Rome broke from the Orthodox Church when he decided he should have greater power. It's a myth that the Eastern Church broke away from Rome. Rome was only part of the greater Orthodox church. Rome had a bishop like Greece had a bishop."

If you truly believe this, why are you Episcopalian? You do realize that your argument above draws the conclusion that you are in effect a heretic, since Episcopalian's are an offshoot of Anglican's, which broke away from Rome. You are condemning your own church!
Some food for thought.
In the 1st century, St. Ignatius, Peter's appointee to the Antiochian bishopric, addressed his letter to the Roman Church like this:

"...to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the report of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, I wish abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God."
In his letter to the Smyraean Church he wrote:
"Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist [the Catholic word for "Communion"], which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."
In his letter to the Ephesians:
[Speaking of Bishops] "For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself. And indeed Onesimus [see Colossians 4:8-10 and Philemon 1:10] himself greatly commends your good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor, indeed, do ye hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ speaking in truth."
While Scripture is evidence enough for the marks of Christ's Church, we can see in the writings of Ignatius -- written in the first century, within 67 years of Christ's resurrection, by a close friend and appointee of the Apostle Peter and friend of Polycarp -- that the early Church had a very Catholic interpretation of Scripture:
the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God (Epistle to the Philadelphians)
the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (Epistles to the Philadelphians and the Ephesians)
the threefold character of the hierarchy (Epistle to the Magnesians)
the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Epistles to the Magnesians, Smyraenians, and the Trallians)
the importance of unity of the Church (Epistles to the Trallians, Philadelphians, and the Magnesians)
emphasis on the holiness of the Church (Epistles to the Smyraeans, Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallians, and Romans)
the catholicity of the Church (Letter to the Smyraeans)
the infallibility of the Church (Epistles to the Philadelphians and the Ephesians)
the doctrine of the Eucharist -- i.e., belief in Transsubstantiation or the Real Presence of Christ in Communion (Epistle to the Smyraeans)
the Incarnation (Epistle to the Ephesians)
the supernatural virtue of virgnity (Epistle to Polycarp)
the religious character of matrimony (Epistle to Polycarp)
the value of united prayer (Epistle to the Ephesians)
the primacy of the Chair of Peter (Epistle to the Romans, introduction)
a dencouncing of the (later Protestant) doctrine of private judgement in matters of religion (Epistle to the Philadelphians)1
St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, born between A.D. 115 and 125 (or between 130 and 142, the date is unclear though it is certain that he met Bishop Polycarp (d. 155) at Smyrna) wrote in his Adversus Haereses Book III Ch. IV about sorting Truth from heresy:
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man depositing his money in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth."
Which Church was he talking about? The Church built by Christ on the rock of Peter:
"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; we do this, I say, by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also by pointing out the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere" (ibid., Book 3, Ch 2, 2).
A few quotes for you:
The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]). Polycarp was taught and ordained by the Apostle St. John.

The Muratorian Canon
"Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).

Tertullian
"Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago-in the reign of Antonius for the most part-and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).

As to the comment about the primacy of Rome in the early Church, I offer this:
Below are writings of the early Church Fathers of the Eastern part of the Catholic Church -- all of whom supported the primacy of the Petrine Ministry.

Jerusalem
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)
Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, Catech. xi. n. 3)
For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven. (Cyril, Catechetical Lectures A.D. 350).
Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly. (Cyril, Catech ii. n. 15)
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the foremost of the Apostles and the key-bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the name of Christ. (Cyril, Catech. xviii. n. 27)
St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)
Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)
Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)
And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine.
Constantinople
St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387)
Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom)
Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom).
Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)
(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)
In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)
He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5).
And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)
St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople (434):
A disciple of St. John Chrysostom
Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, and the one set over (or chief of) the Apostles. Art not thou he that didst say, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'? Thou Bar-Jonas (son of the dove) hast thou seen so many miracles, and art thou still but Simon (a hearer)? He appointed thee the key-bearer of Heaven, and has though not yet layed aside thy fisherman's clothing? (Proclus, Or. viii In Dom. Transfig. t. ix. Galland)
John Cassian, Monk (c. 430)
That great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the principle authority in faith and in priesthood. Tell us, therefore, we beg of you, Peter, prince of Apostles, tell us how the Churches must believe in God (Cassian, Contra Nestorium, III, 12, CSEL, vol. 17, p. 276).
St. Nilus of Constantinople (448)
A disciple of St. John Chrysostom
Peter, Head of the choir of Apostles. (Nilus, Lib. ii Epistl.)
Peter, who was foremost in the choir of Apostles and always ruled amongst them. (Nilus, Tract. ad. Magnam.)
Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople (466-516)
Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that 'such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.' (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)
Emperor Justinian (520-533)
Writing to the Pope:
Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches. (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).
Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all. (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).
St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650)
A celebrated theologian and a native of Constantinople
The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High. (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)
How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome. (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)
If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, accodring to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).
John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)
The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)
St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)
Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles. (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).
St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)
Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)
Writing to Pope Paschal:
Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all. (Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)
Writing to Emperor Michael:
Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).
In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here (Constantinople), for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge. (Letter of St. Theodor and Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).
Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See. (Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)
Alexandria
St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311)
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr's death.
Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)
St. Anthony of Egypt (330)
Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687)
St. Athanasius (362)
Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35)
The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
St. Macarius of Egypt (371)
The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180)
Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)
St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 424)
He suffers him no longer to be called Simon, exercising authority and rule over him already having become His own. By a title suitable to the thing, He changed his name into Peter, from the word 'petra' (rock); for on him He was afterwards to found His Church. (Cyril, T. iv. Comm. in Joan., p. 131)
He (Christ) promises to found the Church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this He sets Peter as shepherd. (Cyril, Comm. on Matt., ad loc.)
Therefore, when the Lord had hinted at the disciple's denial in the words that He used, 'I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail,' He at once introduced a word of consolation, and said (to Peter): 'And do thou, when once thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.' That is, 'Be thou a support and a teacher of those who through faith come to me.' Again, marvel also at the insight of that saying and at the completeness of the Divine gentleness of spirit. For so that He should not reduce the disciple to despair at the thought that after his denial he would have to be debarred from the glorious distinction of being an Apostle, He fills him with good hope, that he will attain the good things promised. ...O loving kindness! The sin was not yet committed, and He already extends His pardon and sets him (Peter) again in his Apostolic office. (Cyril Comm. on Luke's Gospel)
For the wonderous Peter, overcome by uncontrollable fear, denied the Lord three times. Christ heals the error done, and demands in various ways the threefold confession ... For although all the holy disciples fled, ...still Peter's fault in the threefold denial was in addition, special and peculiar to himself. Therefore, by the threefold confession of blessed Peter, the fault of the triple denial was done away. Further, by the Lord's saying, Feed my lambs, we must understand a renewal as it were of the Apostleship already given to him, washing away the intervening disgrace of his fall, and the littleness of human infirmity. (Cyril, Comm. on John's Gospel).
They (the Apostles) strove to learn through one, that preeminent one, Peter. (Cyril, Ib. 1. ix. p. 736).
And even blessed Peter, though set over the holy disciples, says 'Lord, be it far from Thee, this shall be done to Thee. (Cyril, Ibid. 924).
If Peter himself, that prince of the holy disciples, was, upon an occassion, scandalized, so as suddenly to exclaim, 'Lord, be it far from Thee,' what wonder that the tender mind of woman should be carried away? (Cyril, Ibid, p. 1064)
That the Spirit is God we shall also learn hence. That the prince of the Apostles, to whom 'flesh and blood,' as the Savior says, 'did not reveal' the Divine mystery, says to Ananias, 'Why hath Satan tempted thy heart, (Cyril, T. v. Par. 1. Thesaur. p. 340)
Besides all these, let there come forward that leader of the holy disciples, Peter, who, when the Lord, on a certain occassion, asked him, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' instantly cried out, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, T. v. P.2, Hom. viii. De Fest. Pasch. p. 105)
'If I wash thee not, thou shalt have no part with me.' When the Coryphaeus (Peter) had heard these words, he began to change. (Cyril, Ib. Hom.)
This bold man (Julian), besides all this, cavils at Peter, the chosen one of the holy Apostles. (Cyril, T. vi.l. ix. Contr. Julian. p. 325).
Eulogius of Alexandria (581)
Born in Syria, he became the abbot of the Mother of God monastery at Antioch. In 579, he was made Patriarch of Alexandria; and became an associate of St. Gregory the Great while visiting Constantinople. Much of their subsequent correspondence is still extant.
Neither to John, nor to any other of the disciples, did our Savior say, 'I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,' but only to Peter. (Eulogius, Lib. ii. Cont. Novatian. ap. Photium, Biblioth, cod. 280)
Antioch
Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)
A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch.
The great foundation of the Church was shaken, and confirmed by the Divine grace. And the Lord commanded him to apply that same care to the brethren. 'And thou,' He says, 'converted, confirm thy brethren.' (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Haeret. Fab. lib. v.c. 28)
'For as I,' He says, 'did not despise thee when tossed, so be thou a support to thy brethren in trouble, and the help by which thou was saved do thou thyself impart to others, and exhort them not while they are tottering, but raise them up in their peril. For this reason I suffer thee also to slip, but do not permit thee to fall, thus through thee gaining steadfastness for those who are tossed.' So this great pillar supported the tossing and sinking world, and permitted it not to fall entirely and gave it back stability, having been ordered to feed God's sheep. (Theodoret, Oratio de Caritate in J. P. Minge, ed., Partrologiae Curses Completus: Series Graeca).
I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds. (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).
If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives. (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)
Cyprus
St. Epiphanius, Archbishop of Salamis (385)
Holy men are therefore called the temple of God, because the Holy Spirit dwells in them; as that Chief of the Apostles testifies, he that was found to be blessed by the Lord, because the Father had revealed unto him. To him then did the Father reveal His true Son; and the same (Peter) furthermore reveals the Holy Spirit. This was befitting in the First of the Apostles, that firm Rock upon which the Church of God is built, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The gates of hell are heretics and heresiarchs. For in every way was the faith confirmed in him who received the keys of heaven; who looses on earth and binds in heaven. For in him are found all subtle questions of faith. He was aided by the Father so as to be (or lay) the Foundation of the security (firmness) of the faith. He (Peter) heard from the same God, 'feed my lambs'; to him He entrusted the flock; he leads the way admirably in the power of his own Master. (Epiphanius, T. ii. in Anchor).
Sergius, Metropolitain of Cyprus (649)
Writing to Pope Theodore:
O Holy Head, Christ our God hath destined thy Apostolic See to be an immovable foundation and a pillar of the Faith. For thou art, as the Divine Word truly saith, Peter, and on thee as a foundation-stone have the pillars of the Church been fixed. (Sergius Ep. ad Theod. lecta in Sess. ii. Concil. Lat. anno 649)
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

since Episcopalian's are an offshoot of Anglican's, which broke away from Rome. You are condemning your own church!
A lot of Anglican/Episcopelian churches are reentering communion with Rome.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"A lot of Anglican/Episcopelian churches are reentering communion with Rome."
Agreed. My parish just received an entire Anglican community (about 60 people, including their clergy) into our's. They realized the absurdity of their position and came home.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

You can be a "good" Catholic and be in the Mafia and cheat, pillage, steal, and murder. And as a Catholic, all they had to do was 'confess" to a priest! Or give a deathbed confession and recieve absolution.
Silly.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

You can be a "good" Catholic and be in the Mafia and cheat, pillage, steal, and murder. And as a Catholic, all they had to do was 'confess" to a priest! Or give a deathbed confession and recieve absolution.
Silly."

Ignorant claim and without merit. Absolution is only confected when the penitent has a contrite heart. If not, he would then not be a "good Catholic", and therefore would not receive the grace that comes from confessing his/hers sins. In other words, if the sinner doesn't mean it, he doesn't get it.
It really is not hard to read the Catechism online and see wat the Church actaully teaches on these things before making "silly" comments.
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Still thinking:
True statistics show that sexual abuse in educational, protestant, and labor organizations all heavily outweigh the abuses by superiors in the Catholic Church. One statistic showed upwards of 900,000 cases of child sex abuse in education (just in the US) from 1990 to 2000. There have been 11,000 claims of sex abuse against priests of the Catholic Church over the last 50 years. Abuse from the global Church pales in comparison to just one country's public education system! Source: National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System.
This is a gross case of bigotry against the Catholic Church perpetrated by anti-Catholicism. The real enemy to children is Secularism and evil. Unfortunately, there are perverts in all organizations and churches, and no church, school, government, or any other body should be so bashed because of a few fallen away, sinful people.
The numbers above aren't to show how much "better" the Catholic Church is, because just one case of abuse is one more than should be, but I only give you this information to show you, and everyone, the bigoted bias against the Catholic Church.
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Great job, Isidore,
Unfortunately, facts aren't desireable for some, and being hateful is easier... I love the early Church Fathers. There are literally thousands of writings available for free in most cases, for anybody to read by the early Church Fathers, but many refuse to research them. Why? Because they are profoundly, completely Catholic, and our Church is the same to this very day.
Few are interested in understanding our beautiful Church that Jesus gave us; they prefer to crucify her. And, I find it most distastful that many "Christians" are the ones who perpetrate the harshest judgments on her, all the while not knowing what they are talking about.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


The people that are trying to bring the Church down are not only shameless, but very dangerous.
They may hide behind different organizations, groups, etc to spread their hatred but their problem with the Church is that it is an obstacle (and a formidable one), for them to achieve total control of others and to impose their view of the world, where THEY are the gods.
Of course they have two big problems: they are only humans, and God does exist.
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Oh so very true, apostatethunder.
Everyone wants to point out evils done by every type of religion, yet those who want a world without religions either play down or eliminate from memory all together the atrocities committed by the Godless men of the 20th century (Hitler, Stalin, Pot, Mao, etc.) who were responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people to reform society to their own standards. Whenever anyone wants to discuss the thousands killed, and crimes committed by any member of any church, first lets discuss what happens when man tries to run himself instead of submitting himself to our Blessed Lord and is responsible for the greatest, damnable crimes possible!
Bodies piled high or laid in ditches, buildings burnt to rubble, and entire countries under the thumb of one supreme dictator; these are the things Christianity in general protects the world from. More precisely, God protects man from himself, but when man throws out God, he also throws out God's protection.
 
Cagefighter
Cagefighter 4 years ago

The point of traditions and so forth are to get us in a place where we connect with God. Catholicism has some wonderful traditions although I agree some take them on a shallow level and the veneration of the saints and Mary goes a little too far in my opinion. Still, I do not dismiss the church on a whole because everything does not appeal to me.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"The Orthodox Churches here have married priests (both the Greek Orthodox and the Coptic (?) or Lebanese Orthodox churches), as do the Anglicans and Lutherans. They do JUST FINE taking care of their parishes, because they are PAID FULL TIME CLERGY, who are also given free housing as part of their salary. That is to say, professionals at what they do, who usually have a Master's degree in theology."
Diocesan Catholic priests are paid and given housing as well, so your point is(?). Catholic parishes are typically MUCH larger than a typical Greek Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican paris. My own parish has approx. 3000 members, and we are among the samllest in our diocese. Some have as many as 15-20,000 or more. And it is a discipline based on scripture:
[11]Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

Your insinuation that unmarried priests are the cause of the pedophilia in recent history in the Church is shallow. See Penn State. History has shown the vast majority of children that have this vile crime done unto them come from family members. Should we do away with the family unit then? Comparatively speaking, the public school systems show a higher frequency of these type of crimes taking place. Should we stop sending kids to schools? Common sense please.
The Catholic Church set the standard for studies in Theology and Philosophical thought for the Western world. Catholic clergy afterall are the ones that created the university systems as we know it today and the scholastic method. The Protestants would not know what a "Masters in Theology" would mean or how to obtain one if wasn't for the Catholic Church.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Isadore, it's not important to me that Rome stay part of the Orthodox Church or that the Anglican church stays part of the Orthodox Church. What is important is that the RC claims they are the trunk of the tree, when really they are the first branch. I mean, it's not seriously important, it's just something I didn't know until one of my Anglican priest friends told me and I looked into it.
Last spring we had an interfaith exercise going on around Grand Rapids. We had representatives of many faiths, including The Greek Orthodox Church, Jewish Studies professor from GVSU, a speaker on Buddhism, Hinduism and other churches come in each week to teach about their faith and answer questions. The Greek Orthodox speaker told of the history of the early Christian Church and how each country had a bishop that oversaw the church in his country. Rome had a bishop, too. And the Orthodox Church is still like this today. There is a Greek Bishop, A Russian Bishop and other bishops in other countries. The USA does not have its own Bishop YET. The Roman, or Western Church does not have a Bishop in the Orthodox Church since the Great Schizm. The Roman church eventually set up their bishop as Pope of their church. It's true that you do learn something new everyday.
I was raised in the Episcopal Church and I found my way back to the church in 2005. As I child I was a natural universalist. I am now a universalist. I view the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church as different paths to the same eventuality. One is not superior to the other. I feel most comfortable in the Episcopal Church. I feel almost as comfortable attending an RC church. The Episcopal Church has an open communion policy. The RC does not. So, unless I have a reason to attend the RC masses, I don't usually attend them. The Orthodox Church would be too much for me. They mix their wine with the bread and they serve it to everyone off the same spoon. They also have a closed communion.
The Episcopal Church believes every individual is on his or her own unique spiritual journey. Many, many of our priests are former Roman Catholic priests or members. I have been seeing a therapist for anxiety for a few years now. She is a Dominican nun. She was an engineer and then went on to get her doctorate in psychology. I love her for how much she has helped me, but also because she is a very forward thinking Roman Catholic. I can ask her questions about the history of the church or current day practices. She's a good source for accurate information. Also, at times I write Ask a Franciscan and get aswers to questions such as why is the RC communion closed, etc. Ultimately, I believe all of us are headed the same direction.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Talesin, there was a time I was ignorant as you are about this and condemned the Church in regards to this subject.
So did I, because I believed what the JWs had taught me on the subject. As it turns out, it was not true
They had us all snowed.
I'm greatful for the RC celibacy policy for one reason: we have a lot of great priests who have left the RC and are now Episcopalian. Father Mike at St. Pius fell in love with his wife and left the RC to marry her. Father Mic felt a strong calling his whole boyhood and then met his wife Paula at college. He was newly ordained in the Episcopal Church when I first met him at St. Mark's. I asked him should the RC ever allow priests to marry, would he return to the church and he told me no. He still does wear his Miraculous medal. Mother Val was RC, but left over the RC's policies on women. The Episcopal Church is happy to have her. She taught me how wonderful a woman priest can be in caring for a church and congregation. Our current Bishop was RC, but wanted to marry. I've met more Episcopal priests who were RC than I have met ones who were not.
About the birth control, there are millions of Roman Catholics all over the world who do abide by the Pope's orders. The sad thing is, a lot of them reside in 3rd world countries and cannot afford to have big families. Like it or not, the policy does affect women and children in the church. Sure, there are people who sidestep the policy, but there many who do not.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

Isidore, it's not important to me that Rome stay part of the Orthodox Church or that the Anglican church stays part of the Orthodox Church. What is important is that the RC claims they are the trunk of the tree, when really they are the first branch. I mean, it's not seriously important, it's just something I didn't know until one of my Anglican priest friends told me and I looked into it.
This is a fairly reply by Anglican who try to rationalize that they are still part of the Apostolic succession. Of course a non-Catholic is going to amke this assertion. To do otherwise would give them a real intellectual dilemma.
The Roman church eventually set up their bishop as Pope of their church. It's true that you do learn something new everyday.
Did you bother to read the numerous accounts of Eastern (Orthodox) bishops that I cited above? Obviously not, because they debunk your revisionism history.
The Episcopal Church has an open communion policy. The RC does not. So, unless I have a reason to attend the RC masses, I don't usually attend them. The Orthodox Church would be too much for me. They mix their wine with the bread and they serve it to everyone off the same spoon. They also have a closed communion.
By receiving Communion, you are publically professing that you believe and and adhere to ALL of the teachigs of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Since you obviously don't, thank goodness you have not been given Holy Communion in the Catholic Church.
1 Corinthians 11
For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
 
Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

What is it with former jw's who covert to another flavour of christian belief and denounce those who don't follow such a path?
They judge those who change completely and follow no religion as "wrong" or holding onto former beliefs somehow. "We were wrong about it once but now we've got it right and y'all are still jdubs at heart" Laughable
Personally, I really don't give a shit about any of it. Eh, whatever gets u thru the day.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Twitch, this thread was started against Catholicism, not by Catholicism against anyone.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

What is it with former jw's who covert to another flavour of christian belief and denounce those who don't follow such a path?
This thread was started to attack Catholics. Is it so strange to you that Catholic XJWs try to defend themselves?
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

This thread was started to attack Catholics. Is it so strange to you that Catholic XJWs try to defend themselves?
No catholics around here; we feed 'em to the wolves, lol
Like I said, eh whatever. Argue your "rightness" to your heart's content. It's all pov, or haven't you learned that yet?
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

The people that are trying to bring the Church down are not only shameless, but very dangerous.
LOL...no one is trying to 'bring the church down'...I believe it will do that to itself eventually...just a matter of time, like every other religion that has ever been. We are not dangerous....LOL
They may hide behind different organizations, groups, etc to spread their hatred but their problem with the Church is that it is an obstacle (and a formidable one), for them to achieve total control of others and to impose their view of the world, where THEY are the gods.
More LOL....the catholic church imposes its views on the world...I state my opinions on it...and do not belong to any organisation.
Of course they have two big problems: they are only humans, and God does exist.
No....he doesn't...and the leaders of the Catholic church, and every other church.....are only human.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Still thinking:
True statistics show that sexual abuse in educational, protestant, and labor organizations all heavily outweigh the abuses by superiors in the Catholic Church. One statistic showed upwards of 900,000 cases of child sex abuse in education (just in the US) from 1990 to 2000. There have been 11,000 claims of sex abuse against priests of the Catholic Church over the last 50 years. Abuse from the global Church pales in comparison to just one country's public education system! Source: National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System.
This is a gross case of bigotry against the Catholic Church perpetrated by anti-Catholicism. The real enemy to children is Secularism and evil. Unfortunately, there are perverts in all organizations and churches, and no church, school, government, or any other body should be so bashed because of a few fallen away, sinful people.
The numbers above aren't to show how much "better" the Catholic Church is, because just one case of abuse is one more than should be, but I only give you this information to show you, and everyone, the bigoted bias against the Catholic Church.
Oh please, abuse anywhere else in society does not exuse the abuse and cover ups of the catholic church...any more than it excuses the cover ups by the WTS. The only reason the church had to admit to the abuse was because of people coming forward and taking legal action against them. Otherwise they would still cover it up...and from my experience...still try to if they think they can get away with it.
The real enemy to children is Secularism
What utter nonsense.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

Like I said, eh whatever. Argue your "rightness" to your heart's content.
I'm not saying that at all, and you can easily apply that to the thread starter.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"No catholics around here; we feed 'em to the wolves, lol.

Why don't you come over to Catholic chat forums and lock horns with doctors in philosophy and systematic theology. Perhaps they would prove to be worthy of your intellect (?). They'll never have to even bring up the bible......
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Orthodox1 - your apologetics of Roman Catholic child abuse is beneath contempt.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Still thinking you choose a nice name, keep thinking, you still don’t have all the answers.
Second to evil, ignorance is the most dangerous thing in this world.
 
Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

Why don't you come over to Catholic chat forums and lock horns with doctors in philosophy and systematic theology. Perhaps they would prove to be worthy of your intellect (?). They'll never have to even bring up the bible......
What for? I've nothing to prove to them, or you. I gave an opinion, sorry if it bothers your ego. Well, not really sorry, lol
You on the other hand, seem to have an agenda here...
I'm not saying that at all, and you can easily apply that to the thread starter.
I don't see Minimus' OP as an attack.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

What for? I've nothing to prove to them, or you. I gave an opinion, sorry if it bothers your ego. Well, not really sorry, lol
I do not recall ever hearing you express this POV for posters of a different bent.
You on the other hand, have an agenda here so it seems.
As do you, it seems.
 
Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

I do not recall ever hearing you express this POV for posters of a different bent.
Actually I have and more than once. That you are unaware of it doesn't mean it didn't/doesn't happen.
As do you, it seems.
Glad you think so. Could you tell me what my agenda is though? I'd like to know...
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Twitch, I find atheists silly, strange and weird. Also very intolerant.
 
Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

apostate, you don't know many atheists, do ya? :wink: I wouldn't say I'm intolerant of believers; my gf is catholic. She doesn't preach it, I don't try to change her. But some believers (or atheists) aren't tolerant, with this I would agree.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Flying:
About the birth control, there are millions of Roman Catholics all over the world who do abide by the Pope's orders. The sad thing is, a lot of them reside in 3rd world countries and cannot afford to have big families.
I was born in the Third World and still live there. Most people I know are of similar origin. I beg to differ with you as to the reason why most of them do not have big families. I am sure the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Italians, Catholic Germans, the French, the Poles, all can afford to have more children than the average number they have, but they don't. And the reason is the same as in Latin America: they just don't want to have many children. They also get married later because they want to have a career. The women don't really want to be housewives and nothing else.
What you're saying sounds to me as if Catholics had more children if only they could. It is not so.
I don't think most Catholics would think of what the Pope says as an "order". I believe you are in the company of the pious.
You know, I have a childhood friend who teaches Religion at a Theresian school. Her official position is that of "Educator in the Faith". She and her husband met at church, when they were both members of the youth movements there. They are still very active at church. They only have two daughters.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"What for? I've nothing to prove to them, or you. I gave an opinion, sorry if it bothers your ego. Well, not really sorry, lol
You on the other hand, seem to have an agenda here..."

Ego not bothered at all. Not all will hear Christ's voice. I do have an agenda. You are a child of God, and as such, I love you.
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 4 years ago

I like Catholics. If it weren't for the Catholic monks, we wouldn't have as good of a beer as we do today.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Isadore, if I wanted to, I could take communion at Mary Wood with Sister Julia's blessings. I wouldn't though, because I don't want to take communion where there is a closed policy. And you're right, I don't believe everything the RC teaches and apparently, a lot of RC's don't either. You can quote Orthodox bishops and I can quote them. I wasn't there during the Great Schizm. I just know that the Orthodox Church views the RC as the first to protest and leave the early church. It doesn't matter to me if the RC teaches that the Eastern Orthodox bishops left Rome.
This is a fairly reply by Anglican who try to rationalize that they are still part of the Apostolic succession. Of course a non-Catholic is going to amke this assertion. To do otherwise would give them a real intellectual dilemma.
Who rationalized that? You just pulled that out of your hat. The Roman Church doesn't have the apostolic succession monopolized though, now that you bring it up. I'm sure the Pope would love it if all Catholics and protestants believed that it does, but the fact is that not all Roman Catholics and protestants do. It matters a lot more to you than it does me, obviously. Your beliefs are important to you. I can respect that. I will say that the dogmatic clinging to the myth that the RC is God's church is another thing I find distasteful about the official church. I know enough Roman Catholics to know that not all of you believe that, when you get down to the brass tacks.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


I think all churches claim to be God’s church, not only the Catholics.
About people that don’t believe, the fact that you don’t held anything as sacred doesn’t mean that anyone else shouldn’t either.
Live and let live.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

From Ask a Franciscan:
Origins of the Celibacy Rule
Q: When did the Roman Catholic Church begin to require celibacy before a man could be ordained a priest? Why? Doesn’t this suggest that marriage is inferior to celibacy? Why doesn't the Roman Catholic Church allow a married clergy as do the Eastern Churches (Orthodox and Catholic)?
A: By itself, a decision to remain single could mean very different things (great selfishness, great generosity or inability to choose a spouse).
In Matthew 19:12, Jesus praises a celibacy practiced “for the sake of the Kingdom.” Optional, lifelong celibacy for men became more common with Egypt’s desert hermits in the third century. By the year 303, the Council of Elvira (southern Spain) had prohibited sexual intercourse between a married priest and his wife. By the mid-fourth century, marriage after ordination started to be prohibited.
There are various reasons—influence of cultic purity laws for Old Testament priests, possible conflict over inheriting Church property, the teaching of Jesus cited above and St. Paul’s teaching on celibacy (1 Corinthians 7:32-35).
The Orthodox Churches and Eastern Catholic Churches ordain married men as priests but select bishops from monks who have already made a lifelong promise of celibacy. A married priest who becomes a widower may not remarry.
The Second Lateran Council (1139) made celibacy mandatory for future priests in the Western Church.
In the last 40 years the Catholic Church has allowed some married, Protestant ministers to be ordained priests after they became Catholics. Most of these priests are not in full-time parish ministry.
In 1967 through his encyclical On Priestly Celibacy, Pope Paul VI reaffirmed the Catholic Church’s rule about this. Section 1579 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that “accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.”
A gospel-based celibacy does not devalue marriage; it is another way of serving the Lord. What matters most for both vowed celibates and married people is generous faithfulness.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Aposta, I respect that people hold things as sacred. That doesn't mean I agree that the same things are sacred. There are things that the RC holds sacred that I hold sacred as well.
Put this into google search and you will find a lot about celibacy and church land ownership and inheritance rights for the heirs of priests.
celibacy mandate of priests 1139 and church land ownership
Hey, I learned about this from a Roman Catholic sermon by a Roman Catholic priest at a Roman Catholic mass.






 
talesin
talesin 4 years ago

Regarding the OP - strange and silly? or comforting?

I went to a funeral today. It's not the first I've attended in the Catholic Church.

The rituals are comforting, and give one time to think .... the beautiful songs .... the quiet procession of supplicants to take the host ... etc.
I was told at the wake, that the Church recently changed its policies on eulogies and singing of secular songs, saying they are inappropriate, but some parishes ignore this new order. Nothing is more beautiful, than a person playing guitar and singing while we reflect on our relationship with the person who has died.

Anyhow, I have always found that the funerals in Catholic Churches are the most beautiful, and when we all turn to each other and hug, shake hands, or whatever, and say 'peace be with you', it is a wonderful feeling.

I don't like organized religion ,,, I don't like the amassing of wealth, political machinations, etc., but understand why people belong ....

Life is not black and white,,, am I an atheist? Yes. Do I accept that many people aren't? Yes.

Do I feel the need to whitewash things I see as negative about ANY religion? No.

Can I see some of the good things, as well as what I dislike or abhor? Yes.

re: Nazis & RC Church
First, I want to say this.
It's not just JWS who feel this way about the Church, AS I STATED IN MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS, with specific examples of people I am personally acquainted with, born and raised in the Church. I am sick of posters like FHN making wild-ass claims that people like me are brainwashed JWS.
You know bloody well, FHN, that my thinking was deprogrammed while YOU were still warming a seat at the Kingdom Hall. So I would appreciate it if you would actually construct an argument instead of claiming that I (and others) still believe the BS taught by the JWS. It's wearing thin.
In the past 35 years, I have done MY OWN RESEARCH ON MANY TOPICS, so I say "Cofty's Law" to YOU and your constant pointing of fingers at others for still believing the lies of the JWS. It's boring, and lazy.

http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks3/responses-1933-1945/what-did-individuals-do/how-did-the-catholic-church-respond/


After the Nazis came to power in Germany, they signed an agreement ( Concordat ) with the Catholic Church whereby the Vatican would accept the Nazi government in return for the Nazis not interfering with the Catholic Church.
In 1939 Eugenio Pacelli was elected Pope Pius XII. As head of the Catholic Church during the war years, he signed the Concordat with Nazi Germany. The Catholic Church, as an organisation, did not protest against any of the anti-Jewish policies of the Nazi state.
The Pope believed that primarily it was his duty to save and look after Catholics. Nevertheless, in 1939, he did obtain 3,000 visas to Brazil for Jews who had been baptised In the belief that these people were now Christian. But the Nazis defined Jews racially , even though they had converted, and believed they were still Jews.
The Vatican knew of the murder of the Jews very early on, as they had religious representatives in all of the occupied countries. Certain individual priests saved Jews but the Church, as an official body, did nothing significant to save the Jews of Europe.

And this:
To the shame of my nation, MY people, Canada turned away 10s of thousands of Jews seeking refuge, and sent them back to perish in the ovens.
The USA only entered the war AFTER the attack on Pearl Harbour.
I consider these to be acts of collusion as well. Perhaps I should have defined the parameters of my comments more clearly.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing."
 ~ Edmund Burke ~
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

This is a fascinating read: The Great Schism from the point of view of the Orthodox Church. Especially interesting are the paragraphs under the heading: Formal Schism 1054.
Click here: The Great Schism
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Talesin, you should ask yourself why the Jews were not given refuge in Canada at the time.
The Vatican helped thousands of them to survive, not because they believed they converted, but because they were human beings.
The fact that the Pope didn’t officially opposed Nazism, doesn’t mean that it supported it. Helping the Jews to escape was an act of subversion.
People that accuse the Pope of supporting Nazism are either not well informed or plainly dishonest.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

In the past 35 years, I have done MY OWN RESEARCH ON MANY TOPICS, so I say "Cofty's Law" to YOU and your constant pointing of fingers at others for still believing the lies of the JWS. It's boring, and lazy.
Well, to be fair here, Tal, I don't constantly point my fingers at you or others for "still believing the lies of the JWS." And you know that. I do however point out, at times, that all of us, including YOU, still have residual effects from being brainwashed Jehovah's Witnesses. Tal, you were raised as a JW. If you think that you have completely shed every influence the WTBTS has had on you, then you do. But how we were raised does affect us, whether our parents were Baptist, Atheist, Pagan or nothing. The WTBTS is a cult. It's a horrible experience for children who are raised in it. It's a horrible experience for adults who are gradually brainwashed into it. Our experiences as JWs are woven into the tapestry of our very beings. We can shed a lot of the experience, but we can never get rid of all of its effects.
It doesn't offend or upset me to admit that I was a JW and that it does affect my personality and life to this day. To me, it's a kind of delusion to dream that you or anyone else came out of it all unscathed and wholly unaffected. No offense to Cofty, but what a cop out it is for you or anyone else to use that made up law like it instantly makes the other person's assertion wrong. Sometimes people are behaving like people who once were part of a great cult. Throwing up Cofty's Law doesn't change that. If we try hard enough, we can make a law to throw out for just about any subject someone could bring up on JWN, to try to invalidate it. For example, I could make up one called FHN's Law to throw at anyone using Cofty's law instead of engaging in some honest, introspective thinking. Throwing up Cofty's Law to try to invalidate a comment is lazy.
As for the RC and Hitler, you know that the church is made up of millions of people who did not support the Nazis. Most of us understand that the Nazis got "support" through coercion, terror and force. The Nazis were invading and bombing Europe with their great war machine. I'm guessing the Pope didn't think it was a wise action to cross Hitler and cause even more extreme torture and bloodshed. The witnesses take the harshest, most simplistic view of what happened between the RC and the Nazis. I can see that you still share a similar view of the decision of the Pope on how to handle the strong arm of the Nazi regime. Go outside the box and think hard about the reasons why the Pope made the decision he did. Would you want to have been in his shoes? It's really the only way you could truly say you would have handled Hitler's bullying differently.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Catholics have done nothing to me...lol.
I just think The Church is odd. I don't feel that way toward all religions because some do not promote mysticism and eerieness.
Understandable, Mini. Especially is this so when it mixes with Voo Doo. We saw it in the little cajun town I lived in. Ever been through the cemeteries in New Orleans?
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

What you're saying sounds to me as if Catholics had more children if only they could. It is not so.
I'm not telling you that Catholics would have more children if only they could. I am saying that some Catholics go along with the Vatican's ban on birth control, very most sincerely. Some are able to manage the size of their families to two or three children, through watching the woman's cycles. That doesn't work well in all circumstances and some do end up with large families. It's a tough thing to manage no matter where a Catholic family lives, when the cycle method doesn't work and the result is a lot of babies. I can't speak for all RC women, but I'm thinking that most of them would prefer not to spend literally years of their lives pregnant and caring for lots of children.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

I agree with your last post, Flying. My simple point is saying that those "some Catholics" are a very small minority. What a very small minority does is no way to define what everyone in the community does. Experiences may be different in different countries, but my experience is that not even one percent of Catholics "sincerely follows" the Pope regarding contraception. When I was a child, in the street where I lived, where there must have been something like 500 people, I had one friend who was a Baptist and another who was a Moravian. Everybody else -and I really mean it- was a Catholic. You never asked what religion the other person belonged to, because the answer was "Catholic" in 95% of the cases. Well everybody in my street was on birth control. Some families did have four children, but, since they had married at 22, all the children were of similar ages, and the couple was by then on their forties, you *knew* something was going on regarding birth control.
You know, there's a joke down here. In Spanish, that watching of the woman's cycles is called "the rhythm method". Some people say, jokingly of course, that "the rhythm" actually means moving faster during lovemaking. Nobody believes that works.
These days, it is not infrequent to find a Catholic couple that manages to keep the number of children down to one.
I wonder why it is difficult for you to believe that the overwhelming majority of Catholics simply disregard what the Pope says regarding birth control. Or economics. The Pope in "infallible", yes, but only in matters related to religion and only when he speaks "ex cathedra". So he's an ignoramus in Economics and isn't even claiming he isn't one.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Hey, DGP, I understand that some RC families do disregard what the Pope says on birth control. Yeah, I didn't say "Rhythm Method" for that very reason, because it sounds sexual.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejm1/piusxii.htm

In defense of Pope Pius XII:

Before his Pontificate:
 As Cardinal Pacelli, he drafted the famous papal encyclical, MIT BRENNENDER SORGE, which denounced Nazi paganism and racism. The document was smuggled into Germany in March, 1937 and read from all Catholic pulpits.
At the time of his election as Pope:
 The Nazi newspaper, Berliner Morgenpost, stated: "The election of Cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism."
 The international communist newspaper, "La Correspondance Internationale", dedicated an article to Pope Pius XII's election, saying it was a good election, because he was a man "clearly opposed to Nazism."
During his Pontificate:
 In September 1939, with the invasion of Poland, Hitler imposed a news blackout over occupied territory. For much of the next several years, the Vatican provided the most reliable, regular source of information available to the public. The New York Times (and other periodicals) gave massive coverage to the Vatican's disclosures of Nazi atrocities against Jews and non-Jews. A few examples:
 10/28/39 Times article "Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism; Urges Restoring of Poland."
 01/23/40 Times article "Vatican Reveals Terrors in Poland".
 01/24/40 Times articles "Vatican Amplifies Atrocity Reports" and "Weight of Papacy Put Behind Exposure of Nazi Excesses in Poland".
 01/24/40 Times Editorial "The Vatican's Indictment" against the Nazis: "All we have heard until now have been unofficial reports of such horrors that we choose to disbelieve them as 'exaggerated'. Now the Vatican has spoken with authority that cannot be questioned, and has confirmed the worst intimations of terror which have come out of the Polish darkness."
 01/29/40 Nearly a full page given in the Times to a 1940 Vatican report released by Pius XII detailing the precise places where Jews and non-Jews were being killed and brutalized by the Nazis in Poland. The word "extermination" is specifically used in this Vatican report.
 03/14/40 Times article reports that "Jews' Rights Defended" by the Pope in meeting between Pius XII and a Nazi official.
 12/40 A letter of Albert Einstein in Time magazine stating that "only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth...Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty."
 12/25/41 A Times editorial states: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas...He is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all."
 1942 London’s Jewish Chronicle remarked: “A word of sincere and earnest appreciation is due from Jews to the Vatican for its intervention in Berlin and Vichy on behalf of their tortured co-religionists in France.”
08/27/42 Times Article entitled "Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored".
 10/42 The Times of London summarized the wartime record of Pius XII up to that time. It stated: "A study of the words which Pope Pius XII has addressed since his accession in encyclicals and allocution to the Catholics of various nations leaves no room for doubt. He condemns the worship of force and its concrete manifestation in the suppression of national liberties in the persecution of the Jewish race."
 12/25/42 Times editorial stated that "This Christmas more than ever he (Pius XII) is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
 08/16/43 A Time magazine editorial stated that the Church "has been fighting totalitarianism more knowingly, devoutly, and authoritatively, and for a longer time, than any other organized power."
 12/04/43 Times Article reporting that Vatican "Denounces Decision to Intern and Strip All Jews in Italy."
Following the war:
 Moshe Sharrett, former Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister of Israel, visited Pius XII "to thank the Catholic Church for what it did to save the Jews in all parts of the world." Summing up his personal interview with Pius, he said: “I told him that my first duty was to thank him, and through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general. We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church for what she did in those countries to help save our brothers.”
The World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican “in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions.”
Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem, as well as the Rabbis of the Italian, U.S., Rumanian and Hungarian Jewish communities came to Rome or sent messages thanking Pius XII for the way in which he mobilized the Church in their behalf.
 Dr. Joseph Nathan, who represented the Italian Hebrew Commission, stated: "Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who executing the directive of the Holy Father, recognized the persecuted as their brothers and, with efforts and abnegation, hastened to help us, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed."
 Dr. A. Leo Kubowitzki, secretary general of the World Jewish Congress, came to present "to the Holy Father, in the name of the Union of Israelitic Communities, warmest thanks for the efforts of the Catholic Church on behalf of Jews throughout Europe during the war."
 At least three of the volumes of the "Acts and Documents of the Holy See" relating to the Second World War are full of documents written by the Jewish communities worldwide thanking Pius XII and the Catholic Church for the assistance offered to persecuted Jews.
 Dr. Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress, stated: "With special gratitude we remember all he (Pius XII) has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history."
 The Israel Philharmonic played at the Vatican as a gesture of gratitude for the Pope's war services.
 The elders of one liberated camp went to Rome and presented Pius with a letter: “Now that the victorious Allied troops have broken our chains and liberated us from captivity and danger, may we, the Jewish internees of Ferramonti, be permitted to express our deepest and devoted thanks for the comfort and help which Your Holiness deigned to grant us with fatherly concern and infinite kindness throughout our years of internment and persecution.... In doing so Your Holiness has as the first and highest authority on earth fearlessly raised his universally respected voice, in the face of our powerful enemies, in order to defend openly our rights to the dignity of man.... When we were threatened with deportation to Poland in 1942, Your Holiness extended his fatherly hand to protect us, and stopped the transfer of the Jews interned in Italy, thereby saving us from almost certain death. With deep confidence and hope that the work of Your Holiness may be crowned with further success, we beg to express our heartfelt thanks while we pray to the Almighty: May Your Holiness reign for many years on this Holy See and exert your beneficent influence over the destiny of the nations.”
The chief rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, said: “I thank the Pope and the Church from the bottom of my heart for all the help they have afforded.”
When Pius XII died in 1958:
 Gold Meir, Israel's representative to the United Nations, wrote: "During the Nazi terror, when our people were subjected to a terrible martyrdom, the Pope's voice was raised to condemn the persecutors and to offer mercy to their victims. We mourn over the death of a great server of peace."
 Jacob Philip Rundin, president of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, said: "His sympathy for all, his wise social vision and his extreme understanding made him a prophetic voice in the service of justice everywhere. May his memory be a blessing for the life of the Roman Catholic Church and the world."
 London's "Jewish Chronicle" recalled that "before, during and after the Second World War, he tried to carry a message of peace. Confronting the monstrous cruelties of Nazism, fascism and communism, he continually proclaimed the virtues of humanity and compassion."
 Writing in the Jewish Anti-Defamation League's Bulletin, Dr. Joseph Lichten said that the late Pontiff's "opposition to Nazism and his efforts to help Jews in Europe were well known to the suffering world."
 For three (3) consecutive days, the New York Times printed so many tributes to Pius XII that it had to list only the names, not the contents.
 Leonard Bernstein asked the New York Philharmonic audience to stand for a moment of silence in honor of Pius XII for all he had done for the Jews.
Other testimonies:
 In early 1943, the Gestapo wrote the following in a report that the Pope "has severely criticized everything we believe..He has spoken clearly in favor of the Jews." Another Nazi report accused Pius XII of being a "mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals."
 Dr. Alexander Shafran, chief rabbi of Romania, wrote in 1944: "In these hard times our thoughts turn more than ever with respectful gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff, who has done so much for Jews in general.... In our worst hours of trial, the generous aid and noble support of the Holy See ... has been decisive. It is not easy to find the proper words to express the relief and solace which the magnanimous gesture of the Supreme Pontiff has given us, in offering a large subsidy in order to alleviate the sufferings of the deported Jews. Roumanian Jewry will never forget these facts of historical importance."
 After the Allies liberated Rome in 1944, a Jewish Brigade Group said in its Bulletin: “To the everlasting glory of the people of Rome and the Roman Catholic Church we can state that the fate of the Jews was alleviated by their truly Christian offers of assistance and shelter. Even now, many still remain in the religious homes and houses which opened their doors to protect them from deportation to certain death.”
"One survivor, quoted in a Hebrew daily in Israel, said: “If we have been rescued, if Jews are still alive in Rome, come with us and thank the Pope in the Vatican.”
A committee of the American Jewish Welfare Board, wrote to Pius himself: “We have received reports from our military chaplains in Italy of the aid and protection to Italian Jews by the Vatican, priests, and church institutions during the Nazi occupation of the country. We are deeply moved by this extraordinary display of Christian love — the more so as we know the risk incurred by those who afforded shelter to Jews.... From the bottom of our hearts we send you the assurances of undying gratitude.”
Rabbi Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, was so moved by the Pope's efforts that he became a devoted friend of Pius XII. He eventually converted to the Catholic faith and took for his baptismal name Eugenio, in honor of Eugenio Pacelli (Pius XII).
 Rabbi Zolli's daughter, the psychiatrist Myriam Zolli, has issued a strong defense of Pius XII. She said the Pope was in steady contact with her father and worked diligently to save Jews from persecution. In an interview in the Italian daily Il Giornale, she recalled her father's prediction that Pope Pius XII would become a scapegoat for the West's silence in the face of the Holocaust. She concluded that "the world's Jewish community owes him a great debt."
 In "The Secret War Against the Jews" in 1994, Jewish writers John Loftus and Mark Aarons write that "Pope Pius XII probably rescued more Jews than all the Allies combined."
 The Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide writes that "The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands..The Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives during the war than all other churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations put together. Its record stands in startling contrast to the achievements of the...Western Democracies." He stated further that "no less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope's summer residence at Castel Gongolfo."
 At the Eichmann Nazi War Crimes Trial in 1961, Jewish scholar Jeno Levai testified that the bishops of the Catholic Church "intervened again and again on the instructions of the Pope." In 1968, he wrote that "the one person (Pius XII) who did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime and alleviate its consequences, is today made the scapegoat for the failures of others."
 In several Catholic churches in Rome there are still Jewish plaques thanking the Church for saving Jewish lives.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Hey, DGP, I understand that some RC families do disregard what the Pope says on birth control.
Flying High Now, do you understand the difference between "some" and "the overwhelming majority"? I think you do, and I also feel it is pointless to try to get you to recognize you understand that. I don't think this is terribly important, however, because facts are stubborn (Lenin) and I'm talking about the fact I have witnessed my entire life.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

dgp, look, I don't have a problem with you. I have a problem with the Vatican. They should not be telling women not to use birth control. And that means every woman. Every single one. Whether a woman listens to the Pope or not, the Pope has no business perpetuating such an assault on women's rights to control how many babies they have. That's one of my beefs with the church. If only one RC woman, and we both know there are many more than one, is hurt by this ban, then it's one too many.
Thank you for that, BTS, the info about Pope Pius XII and the Nazis.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Whoever is behind the family planning official doctrine of the Vatican, is obviously not somebody that has the Vatican best interest at heart. Either that or a case of huge incompetence.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

When I began reading this thread and noticed that Diest said there would be more condoms in Africa if the Catholic Church did not disapprove of contraception, my immediate reaction was to say "Hey! That's not so!" I said that because I have always lived in Third World countries and know only too well that anyone who wants to buy a condom can buy a condom.
WHERE I LIVE, TEEN-AGERS CAN GET CONTRACEPTIVES FOR FREE. ALL THEY NEED TO DO IS GO TO A HEALTH CENTER AND ASK FOR THEM. CONTRACEPTIVES ARE PROVIDED AND THE STAFF DOES NOT ASK ANY QUESTIONS.
The idea above belongs to the paragraph above, but I wrote it in capital letters, marked it and the like, because I just want people to be aware of the one of the reasons why I don't think the Catholic Church's opposition to contraceptives is effective with the overwhelming majority of Catholics.
When I was in high-school, one of our friends always carried one condom - the same one - in his wallet. We thought he was street-wise because he had that one condom - and, I insist, it was the same old one all the time -. That anecdote makes people laugh these days. Among other reasons, because it was obvious our wise guy wasn't using the condom.
When I became a guy of "impregnating potential" my mother, the same woman who now helps give communion at church, gave me a lot of condoms and said "I don't want to know if you're using them or not. I just don't want you to get AIDS or impregnate anyone". That is very liberal for a person of our origin, but it happened. And my mother is a staunch Catholic. Much to her regret, her son never became a priest.
I think I understand why Flying High Now is so unwilling to say that "a tiny minority of Catholic women follow the Church". In her words:
I have a problem with the Vatican. They should not be telling women not to use birth control. And that means every woman. Every single one. Whether a woman listens to the Pope or not, the Pope has no business perpetuating such an assault on women's rights to control how many babies they have. That's one of my beefs with the church. If only one RC woman, and we both know there are many more than one, is hurt by this ban, then it's one too many.
I can agree with every word she said there. I just cannot agree with saying that
some RC families do disregard what the Pope says on birth control.
because that is a lie. This is the truth:
MOST CATHOLIC FAMILIES DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT THE POPE SAYS ON BIRTH CONTROL. AND THAT HAS BEEN THE CASE FOR LONG.
I believe that anyone can question the Catholic Church on contraception without having to say things in such a way that one's point of view will not be weakened.
If a Martian were to hear that a very tiny minority of Catholic women give up contraception because of what the Pope says, probably that Martian would think that such an issue, while important, would not be the most important regarding the Catholic Church. And that is the problem here.
So yes:
There is a number of Roman Catholic families - not just women; an even smaller number of men also give up contraception - who follow what the Catholic Church says regarding contraception: that is, they don't use contraceptives. Fortunately, it's not the majority of Catholics. Yet the Church has no right to tell them how many children they should have and we need to say that. It's an assault on those people's rights. If only one person were to follow those teachings, that person would be under inacceptable control. We need to fight that until the Church gives up its practice of condemning contraception.
See? That was easy.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


The problem here dear dgp, is bigger than your little mind can comprehend.
The pope can say what he wants, he is not coercing anyone. The WT coerces people in various different ways by the methods it uses to recruit and keep people in. EOM.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

please explain why, if no one really cares, why the church is absolutely against aca...
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

aca?
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

obeezycare
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Cofty:
Orthodox1 - your apologetics of Roman Catholic child abuse is beneath contempt.
Did you read my post and the factual statistics? Did I not state that 1 abuse from the Church is 1 too many? Your hatred blinds you, and you have no response to support the evils done by secularism and others.You only want to hate those who love God fervently. How naive! You know nothing about what Pope John Paul II and Benedect XVI have done to weed out pedophiles (who come from our liberal, immoral culture who infiltrated the Church at the same time of the sexual revolution in the 60s and 70s, who go against Church doctrine). You only know so much becuase it was the work of our two most recent Popes to go prune these guys from our ranks.
You accuse me of apologizing for sex predators, yet I did no such thing in my post.
But it sounds to me, by you being tone-deft to the statistics I posted, YOU ARE EXCUSING EVERYONE ELSE BUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHEREAS I EXCUSE NO ONE.
God bless!
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

ok wait.....
the history of the roman catholic church is as bloody as can be. even you admit to the destruction of pagan worlds, many of whom DID NOT persecute the catholics, unless they tried to wage war with them and take their lands while enslaving them(see all of south and central america)
but god still blesses the church?
how abot the money laundering from the vatican bank?
but god still blesses the church?
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

The problem here dear dgp, is bigger than your little mind can comprehend.
The pope can say what he wants, he is not coercing anyone. The WT coerces people in various different ways by the methods it uses to recruit and keep people in. EOM.
I beg to differ. You didn't get the point of the thread. I will repeat it here fo ryou: "I believe Catholicism and its trappings are silly, strange & weird!!!"
This post is on a website that deals with the Watchtower, but the subject of this thread IS NOT the Watchtower. I hope you get that.

please explain why, if no one really cares, why the church is absolutely against aca
Ask the Pope. But the fact that the Pope does not want Catholics to use contraception does not mean Catholics do not use them.
You can find the paragraph below in a website by ECLAC, the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean:
http://www.eclac.org/cgi-bin/getProd.asp?xml=/prensa/noticias/comunicados/5/33345/P33345.xml&xsl=/prensa/tpl-i/p6f.xsl&base=/pses32/tpl-i/top-bottom.xsl
The average 2.4 children per woman in the region indicates that fertility rates have diminished significantly more than expected. In the 1950-1955 quinquennium the global fertility rate was 5.9 children per woman in Latin America.
The ageing of the population is the main demographic phenomenon of these times. This should prompt countries to design specific strategies to address the consequences, given the growing weakness of family support networks and the lack of social services and adequate life conditions for the elderly, without neglecting to satisfy the needs of other age groups.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Rbih, the majority of the population in South America are of Indian descent, it seems the main objective was never to annihilate them or rob them their land. They are still there.
Dgp, sorry you can not see the connection. As I told you it is a bigger problem than your little mind can comprehend.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

apostatethunder, my suggestion is you read a little about the history of the slave trade, especially in central america and the carribean.
google is your friend and the bible is NOT a history book
nor is it a science book. unfortunately the papal powers that be didn't realize that until well after condeming galileo as a heretic
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Rbih, I know about the slave trade which of course I find despicable. But blaming the Church for it is also despicable.
About Galileo, is he really the reason you don’t like the Catholic Church? I am pretty sure he moved on with more ease than some people 5 centuries later.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

is it really now? so the catholic church earlier condemns slavery, only to turn around and find biblical ways to justify stacking africans in the bowels of slave ships once the new world was "discovered" so as to help increase profits.
i don't care one way or the other for the catholic church. i deal with catholics everyday. many of whom i like
what i don't like is what you, isidore and orthodox1 said. i absolutely HATE the tone that was in the other thread, and i'm simply disgusted by your comments about pagans. not only was it offensive, but i'm very much reminded how hypocritical religious people can be. very much like the jehovah's witnesses.
"we're the one true organization! look at how LOVING we are!"
all the while either destroying pagans, forcing religious beliefs on others, waging wars, and destroying lives with cover ups, scandals and false teachings
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 4 years ago

Not all will hear Christ's voice
True. But then, not all of us are lunatics.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Rbih, I have not done any of the things you are accusing me of, neither have any of the many Catholic people I know.
If you get offended by people that believe in their religion that is your problem, don’t blame it on them.
Also, inform yourself before making conclusions, specially based on what you see in a movie. Take care.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Catholics - just a big cult led by moron in an Ivory Tower!
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

did i say YOU enslaved people? no
but YOU are the one who was putting out that, and i QUOTE FROM YOU:
The thing is Jesus didn’t found any Church, but he did say to Peter that he would build his congregation on him. It seems the Catholic Church (which also means Universal), is the only one that can honestly claim that was built on that rock mass, that is Peter.
sure sounds like: "we're the only ones with the truth!" to me and if that WASN'T your meaning, you had some very poorly choiced words
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be merciful, love your neighbor and your enemy, confess your sins to one-another, eat my flesh and drink my blood, baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, "this is your mother" referring to Mary who says "all generations shall call me blessed", participate in the communion of saints, institution of the office of Peter as the head of the Church on earth....
YEP, SOUNDS LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO ME!
that wold be from orthodox1...sounds very much like what you wrote.
then there's this...
People that claim to be Christians but don’t follow him, specially those in a position of teaching or shepherding others, are the wolves in sheep clothes he warned about.
and this:
Maybe paganism was superior to the Bible. When Christopher Columbus arrived in America the Indians were practicing brutal human sacrifices. Maybe they should have been left alone.
Pagan morals are also much more fun than the Christian ones, just don’t expect the same level of spiritual development or even trustworthiness from a temple prostitute, than from a Christian. If you extrapolate this to the type of society they produce, you can see clearly which one is superior to the other.
both from YOU.
so all of a sudden you want to say no one should be offended by others believing whatever they want? get real. as i've already stated in my very first response to orthodox1, i don't care what anyone believes. if you want to believe in unicorns and magic pixie dust, so be it. live and let live i say. that's part of the reason why i left the cult that claims to be the one true cult.
where i take issue is the underhanded and sneaky way orthodox1 came on here to proselytize.
where i take issue with you are the numerous false truths and the incredibly offensive statements about pagans. i mean really, do you NOT see how hypocritical and offensive that was?
facepalm. absolute face palm. you dare to say that pagans produce inferior societies, that pagans don't have the same level of spiritual development, equate them to temple prostitutes and say that they have deficient morals, but then want to trn around and say, "oh please stop persecuting me!!!"
my conclusions are based on factual evidence. the events on la amistad are very well docmented and that was NOT the only slave ship. the horrors of the slave trade are out there in REAL history books, not the one that has zero factual evidence to spport anything it states. nless you have some sort of evidence that at some point there really was a guy who walked on water and healed the sick and raised the dead.
really, there's no difference between the tales of jesus and many other pagan stories. i would argue that jesus is just a jewish ripoff of ancient egyptian mythology. or...them egyptian pagans whose societies were so far beneath the christian ones. it's rather fnny...so if christianity is not muuch more than a ripoff of jewish mythology and jewish mythology isn't much more than a ripoff of egyptian mythology which is decidedly pagan...then doesn't that mean that pagan societies aren't any better or worse than christian societies?
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

the majority of the population in South America are of Indian descent, it seems the main objective was never to annihilate them or rob them their land.
Well, one of three is not good for a mind as great as Apostatethunder, He who Sees Easily What I Cannot Possibly Comprehend.
You know, " inform yourself before making conclusions"
The majority of the population in South America are of Indian descent.
Ha-ha. Let's see what the CIA Factbook says about that:
Brazil (205 million people):
white 53.7%, mulatto (mixed white and black) 38.5%, black 6.2%, other (includes Japanese, Arab, Amerindian) 0.9%, unspecified 0.7% (2000 census) = 203 million non-Indians.
Argentina (42 million):
white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry), Amerindian, or other non-white groups 3%
40 million non-Indians
Uruguay (3 million):
white 88%, mestizo 8%, black 4%, Amerindian (practically nonexistent)
2.64 million non Indians.
Colombia: 45 million
mestizo 58%, white 20%, mulatto 14%, black 4%, mixed black-Amerindian 3%, Amerindian 1%
41 million non-Indians.
With these four countries alone, we already have 290 million non-Indian South Americans.
Because I don't feel like adding up the figures from the CIA Factbook (and because I know I don't have to), I will be using the population figure from the Wikipedia, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America: 387 and a half million South Americans.
Do you want to revise your statement that "the majority of the population in South America are of Indian descent"? No?
it seems the main objective was never to annihilate them
Good hunch. The objective (not just "the main") was to make them work for the Spanish (or the Portuguese) for free. Will you please illuminate me with more light from your Great Mind?
or rob them their land.
This must be the shadow of the pure shine you just gave out. Who are you kidding?
The Conquistadores were so cruel because they, simple farmers in Spain or Portugal, were authorized by their King to take as much land as possible. The idea being that those conquistadores were still subjects of the King. The more land they grabbed, the larger the kingdom would be.
By the way, Indians were freed by the King. Formally, they were not slaves. The reason was that the King had a tug-of-war with the whites he had sent to the American continent, which he saw as mere stupid farmers. They had so much land, you see, that they could come up with the idea of creating kingdoms of their own (hence Latin American independence). So the King (and the Church) came to the rescue: the Indians were declared to have souls (by the Grace of God), but, at the same time, to be inferior, to be perpetual children who needed the guidance of the whites (and Catechism). That was why they were "entrusted" to white landlords, who, in turn were "authorized" to employ them for gain. Oh, but the Indians were the dear property of the King, their lovely father. If the Spanish conquistador didn't behave, he would not get any indians to work for him. Someone else would teach them the Good News. And what good is a farm as large as a country if there is no one to farm it?
My little mind has the facts, and Apostatethunder's doesn't?
By the way, according to the CIA Factbook:
Fertility rates in
Argentina: 2.29 (96th in the world)
Bolivia: 2.93 (65th)
Brazil: 2.16 (106th)
Chile: 1.87 (145th)
Colombia: 2.12 (111th)
Ecuador: 2.38 (91st)
Paraguay: 2.06 (120th)
Peru: 2.29 (95th)
Uruguay: 1.87 (144th)
Venezuela: 2.4 (89th)
What about India, where Roman Catholics are not the majority religious group?
2.58 (80th)
Saudi Arabia: 2.26 (100th)
South Africa (7.1% Catholics): 2.28 (97th)
Puerto Rico (85% Roman Catholics): 1.63
Norway (Roman Catholic, 1%): 1.77
Can anyone please explain how come Catholic Puerto Rico has a lower fertility rate than nominally Protestant Norway? Maybe the Pope, with his insistence in people not using contraceptives? Are Puerto Ricans specially disregarding the Pope?
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Rbih, face palm? How about a Christmas tree with a dragon tail and three eyes? I am moving on now. Take care.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Dgp, you are saying that the Church is to blame for colonialism? And more so, XVI century colonialism? And based on that the current Vatican has to go?
About the birth rates, the countries with higher birth rates in the world are not the Catholic ones. Your point being?

 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

Min has totally abandoned his thread. He laid a fart and ran out of the elevator.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

so your argument is basically, "they did it so it's ok we did too!"
lol
and exactly what was your point about an xmas tree (pagan if i'm not mistaken)?
hmmm and easter....pagan if i'm not mistaken.
interesting images of pagan items...within the vatican
i see christmas trees and an obelisk...so exactly how is christianity any better than paganism? lmfao
also, thank you dgp for posting FACTS, the figres from carribean countries are even uglier when it comes to the loving kindness bestowed from the christians to the natives
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

i see christmas trees and an obelisk...so exactly how is christianity any better than paganism? lmfao
A Catholic will tell you there is nothing wrong with these things in and of themselves. That "if it came from pagan culture it is automatically evil" crap is a JWism. It does not apply elsewhere.
hmmm and easter....pagan if i'm not mistaken.
It is only called "Easter" in English. In other languages (like Spanish, or Latin) it is called Passover.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Dgp, you are saying that the Church is to blame for colonialism? And more so, XVI century colonialism? And based on that the current Vatican has to go?
you are saying that the Church is to blame for colonialism? And more so, XVI century colonialism?
HELL, YEAH! Ever heard about the Treaty of Tordesillas? You see, neither Spain nor Portugal had any right to take the lands they would discover. So the Pope, who was Spanish, decided that the world would be split among those two Catholic, God-Fearing Nations. Brazil would have been a lot smaller than it is today, but then Spain would have never set foot in the Phillippines. So, the two countries had "a divine right", and they used it. By the way, the Church never condemned slavery. The Portuguese were the largest slaveholders in the world, and the real guys behind the slave trade (besides the Muslim), but the Pope didn't say a word about that. What's more, slavery was never abolished in Brazil (where it was abolished only in 1888) for humanitarian reasons, but simply because slaves were expensive to maintain and coffee was booming. Coffee only needs lots of labor during the harvest; the rest of the time, it's just a few people. And Italians were starving, and were even cheaper than blacks. They could be hired only during the harvest and then left to starve the rest of the time. That would teach those unruly blacks a lesson. And there were more Italians in Italy.
The Catholic church justified virtual slavery saying the Indians were like children, that the Spanish and the Portuguese would convert to the True Religion. It was one of the largest landowners in the Continent (and guess who were the original owners?). If I remember well, something like 30% of the entire country of Mexico (which, by then was twice as large as it is today) was in the hands of the Church. So, are they to blame? Yeah. And for a lot more, like spreading idiotic ideas these days.
And based on that the current Vatican has to go?
I never said that.
About the birth rates, the countries with higher birth rates in the world are not the Catholic ones. Your point being?
My point being that, despite what the Pope says, Catholics use contraception even more than some non-Catholics. Is the church to blame for people having many children? These days, the answer in the overwhelming majority of the cases has to be a resounding no. And that simply because that is the truth.
By the way, I just learned about one case - my first- where a Catholic family wanted to have "all twelve apostles". Curiously enough, they are still of childbearing age, and the Lord hasn't sent any more disciples in later years. The youngest apostle is now old enough to be in high school. No Paul in that family. Are they using contraception? Would anyone assume that, if they were really obeying the Pope, the Lord would still be sending workers to the vineyard?
By the way, what is the fertility rate in the United States? According to the CIA Factbook,
2.06 children born/woman (2012 est.)
And only 23.9% of the people are Catholics. How come Catholic Puerto Rico has a lower fertility rate? Is the Pope to blame for the rate of Puerto Rico, or is he to blame for the rate in the United States?
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Dgp, first of all get your facts straight, all you are doing is bashing the Church.
For your information, slavery still exists today as does human trafficking, both in Europe and America, and nobody is doing much to stop it.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

How come Catholic Puerto Rico has a lower fertility rate?
I'm thinking you meant to type birth rate.
 
frankiespeakin
frankiespeakin 4 years ago

Well I think the Catholic Church is a little better than JWs,,Btw I was a Catholic for about 20 years before the JW indoctrinated me into their cult.
But I have no need to join any religion as this no longer has any appeal for me. Maybe if I was single and was looking for a date I might peruse the local religions and pretend interest to see what woman I could find but since I'm not single and in on need of fellowship of that sort i tend to stay away from organized religion.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

I'm thinking you meant to type birth rate.
I meant fertility rate, and anyone can check that in the CIA Factbook.
These are the birth rates:
US: 13.68 per 1,000
Puerto Rico: 11.26 per 1,000
By the way, here's another comparison. Brazil and Mexico are the countries with the largest Catholic populations in the world. These are their fertility rates compared to that of the United States:
Brazil: 2.16
Mexico: 2.27
US: 2.06
Let's compare age distribution and median ages: Both Mexico and Brazil have younger populations, yet they have similar fertility rates. I say this is because contraceptive use is just as frequent as in the United States, if not more.
Mexico:
0-14 years: 28.2% (male 16,395,974/female 15,714,182)
15-64 years: 65.2% (male 35,842,495/female 38,309,528)
65 years and over: 6.6% (male 3,348,495/female 4,113,552) (2011 est.)
Median age:
total: 27.4 years
male: 26.3 years
female: 28.5 years (2012 est.)
Brazil:
0-14 years: 26.2% (male 27,219,651/female 26,180,040)
15-64 years: 67% (male 67,524,642/female 68,809,357)
65 years and over: 6.7% (male 5,796,433/female 7,899,650) (2011 est.)
Median age:
total: 29.6 years
male: 28.8 years
female: 30.5 years (2012 est.)
US:
0-14 years: 20.1% (male 32,107,900/female 30,781,823)
15-64 years: 66.8% (male 104,411,352/female 104,808,064)
65 years and over: 13.1% (male 17,745,363/female 23,377,542) (2011 est.)
Median age:
total: 37.1 years
male: 35.8 years
female: 38.5 years (2012 est.)
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

bts: i really couldn't care whether they bother celebrating that stff. lmao I'M trying to learn how to celebrate it lol
it all boils back down to this:
Maybe paganism was superior to the Bible. When Christopher Columbus arrived in America the Indians were practicing brutal human sacrifices. Maybe they should have been left alone.
Pagan morals are also much more fun than the Christian ones, just don’t expect the same level of spiritual development or even trustworthiness from a temple prostitute, than from a Christian. If you extrapolate this to the type of society they produce, you can see clearly which one is superior to the other.
and the hipocrisy for a catholic to say the above when his own damn chrch is filled with pagan symbols and ripoffs.
as i've said, before, what people's beliefs are are there business. for most of my life i've believed the bs and nonsense that came from the watchtower bullshit and trash society until i saw the error of my ways.
what was said above though is unconscionable and jst plain disgusting, hence why i've been on my rants and i'm amuused at the backtracking bllshit and total misinformation that followed
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Early Christians kept evergreens in their homes to symbolize eternal life. I've read that several places.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Rbih, the only hypocrite I see here is YOU, stop insulting me. What is truly disgusting is how you are bashing the Catholic Church. If it bothers you the fact that Christianity is superior to paganism, you obviously have two problems, blindness and idiocy.
Nothing anyone can do to help you. Take care.
 
Shanagirl
Shanagirl 4 years ago

I don't view the Catholic Church as "Silly, Strange & Wierd!!!" I was raised Catholic before being lured into the JW cult at a vulnerable time in my life. I'm not big on any organized religion to put my faith in any more after leaving JW's. I do feel the Catholic ceremonies music and religios ritual familiarly comforting nad satisfies some spiritual needs within on some level under some cirmcustances. I thnk many former catholics return to it for some of the reasons below. I don't have an issue with this. I think all good comes from religion in the sense of communtiy caring and sharing and trusting in hgher powers to bring feelings of faith. Below are some reasons I beleve returning to the Chruch can be good for many of us who have left the WT Cult.
Shana

Because we want to help other people.
There are lots of opportunities within the secular world to volunteer. What's missing is the spiritual dimension that service within the Catholic Church provides. It's more than just a "feel good" activity. It's part of the "great commandment" (See Mark 12:28) to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. In reaching out to others, Catholic volunteers become instruments of God's love. The Catholic Church offers opportunities to touch the lives of people at home or around the world
Because we want to be part of a faith community.


Many of us seek a sense of belonging. But community is more than just friendly people, good sermons and interesting activities. A Catholic Christian community is a group of people who gather around the person of Jesus Christ to worship God and live in the light of the Holy Spirit. Catholics come together at Mass, in the Sacraments and in parish activities to pray, to celebrate joys, to mourn losses, to serve others, to provide support and to receive strength for daily life. A Catholic parish offers all of this - and much more - to people who recognize the importance of walking with others toward union with God.




Because the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and grace .
Many of us who leave the Catholic Church are blessed by the experience of worshiping for awhile in various Christian denominations. But some people come back when they realize that Catholicism has the fullness of truth and grace. The Catholic Church was not founded by a single reformer or historical movement. It is not fragmented by individual interpretations of Scripture. There are thousands of Christian denominations, but only one Catholic Church. This Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit and protected from teaching error on issues of faith and morals from generation to generation for some two thousand years, as Our Lord Jesus promised: (foretold Isaiah 22:15-25) Matt 16:13-20; Matthew 18:15-18 (in this verse the word is church, not community); 1 Tim 3:15.
Because we made mistakes.
Some of us become burdened with the weight of accumulated sin. We want to get rid of the guilt of having hurt others. We begin to ask ourselves, “Will God ever forgive me? Is there any way I can start over with a clean slate?” You can always tell God that you're sorry, but through the Sacrament of Reconciliation you have a complete assurance of God's forgiveness. In addition, you are reconciled not only with God but with all the members in the Church, the Body of Christ (CCC 1440) and given the grace to start again with that new slate.
Because childhood memories surface.
Some people say childhood memories of feeling connected to God surface in later life. We begin to ask ourselves, “Is it possible to recapture that simplicity of faith? Can I ever really believe that God is watching out for me?” The secularization of our society leads people away from the spiritual side of themselves. The Catholic Church offers BOTH religious and mystical experiences that feed the heart, the mind, the body and the soul AS WELL AS an array of active lay ministries that interface and interact with the secular world in order to make it a holier world to live in.
Because we want meaning in life.
In the hustle of today's busy lifestyles, many of us suddenly realize that our lives have lost a sense of meaning or purpose. We begin to ask ourselves, “What is my life all about? Why do I do what I do?” There is widespread confusion in our culture with regard to morality and truth. The Catholic Church offers a beacon of light that gives meaning to our existence and leads to eternal life if we persevere.

Because we want to be healed.
Some of us carry deep spiritual wounds. We struggle with anger at God over bad things that happen–a terminal illness, a debilitating injury, a broken relationship, mental or emotional problems, an act of violence against an innocent person, an unexplainable accident, some natural disaster, the death of a loved one or some other deep disappointment. The Catholic Church cannot change these situations or explain why they happened. But there are people in the Church who can assist in the process of spiritual healing and help you get on with your life.
Because we need to forgive others.
Sometimes we hold on to anger and resentment toward individuals who have hurt us deeply. Maybe it was a family member or friend. Perhaps it was someone, (a sister or a priest), or something in the Church. “Will God ever forgive me?” Our modern culture condones and encourages anger and revenge. But hatred and bitterness are spiritual cancers that eat at the heart of a person. The Catholic Church provides the opportunity to seek God's help in forgiving others, even when the other person does not ask for forgiveness or does not deserve it. The ability to forgive is a gift that opens a person's heart more fully to God's love and peace.

 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

If it bothers you the fact that Christianity is superior to paganism, you obviously have two problems, blindness and idiocy.
lolz if you can't stand the heat get the hell up out the kitchen
1. orthodox1 tries running through some pathetic exercise in trying to convert people
2. gets called out on it, especially with that vile and disgusting "I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors. The evil Romans weren't then Evil Roman Catholics, but were converted through the love and prayers of the martyrs and laity of the Church."
that's just sick beyond belief in light of REAL history, not that rag you call a bible btw, which isn't much more than a collection of pagan stories with a jewish superhero twist used by the powerful to opress the weak.
3. you then say christianity is superior to paganism, that pagans were better off being enslaved, massacred, tortured, etc by the catholics. that's extremely christian of ya btw. and not in a good way
4. you get called out
5. but then you want to say you're persected. lmao.

here's the thing genius, i'm not bashing catholics. i'm bashing morons like you. the ones who thumb their nose at other cultres, look down on what's supposed to be all of god's children and somehow claim allegiance to a guy who would have kept you at arms length for the things you actually believe. you do know what being a christian means right? have you ever read the spposed actions of the guy you claim to follow? you are EXACTLY like the jewish clergy that jesus held in comlete and utter contempt.
i think nc put it best:

It is a funny dynamic when a poster hops on and smashes our pagan ancestors while crying about how we view the bible.
There is a special set of rules one must follow when dealing with fragile egos.
1. It is perfectly fine to bash and disrespect Pagans, but respect must be shown for the more fragile Christian believers. (not all Christians are fragile, I'm speaking in specifics here).
2. It is perfectly fine to not only bring up past Pagan atrocities, but to exaggerate them, but past Christian atrocities are off limits and simple little mistakes.
3. While we can compare all Pagans to temple prostitutes, it is improper to compare all Christians to crusaders and slave holders.
4. While Pagan people are still responsible for the wrongs of their ancestors, living Christians are absolved of their own past.
5. It is acceptable to call Pagans inferior and Christians superior but the reverse is never acceptable.
It's kind of cute actually.
NC
you mad bro?
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Rbih, if Jesus would have kept me at an arms length is not for you to say.
As morons go, you are at the very top, bro.
3. you then say christianity is superior to paganism, that pagans were better off being enslaved, massacred, tortured, etc by the catholics.
This just proves you have a serious mental problem and I have no interest in continuing this stupid conversation with you.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

lol i can say that because everything you've said is about as unchristian as can possibly be
i don't recall christ EVER saying that pagans had no morals.
i don't recall christ EVER saying nonbelievers were the equivalent to temple prostitutes
i DO recall christ dining with sinners and tax collectors, people that were considered immoral and beneath everyone else, yet i DON'T recall christ excoriating them at all...unlike you
again, you're about as christlike as the very people you claim are inferior to you and that's why i sincerely believe christ would keep you at arms length. unfortunately he doesn't seem to exist and there's zero evidence whatsoever that he did, but you keep on clinging to them fairytales buddy.
for fun, i thought i'd quote some scripture:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (interesting)
4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders (sounds like slavery which YOUR catholic church justified)
, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.(the resemblance is unCANNY maybe this was a prophecy concerning the catholic chrch lmao)
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (sounds like catholicism and christianity in general to me, the realities of the horrors of what catholics have done to spread the message makes it seem like jesus was speakin about pretty mch all of christianity)
22 And [ u ] whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. (stark contrast between you and christ right there, unless you somehow think christ would look at pagans as though they were inferior and immoral. oh wait...he ATE with those types of people...hmmmmm)
23 “ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and [ v ] cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; (catholics denonced slavery only to revive and justify it in the name of profits, very just and merciful of them)
27 “ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (history of the catholic church right there. sanctioned inquisitions, torture and murder. selling sacraments lmao. i just LOVE that one)
29 “ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are [ x ] sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how [ y ] will you escape the [ z ] sentence of [ aa ] hell?
We are not in the middle ages anymore, even though some people seem to be stuck there. The Church doesn’t burn anyone these days. Protestants also did it at the time. Some totalitarian atheistic regimes still do it in the XXI century.
testifying against yourself eh? so your church DID murder people?
drink up the guilt of your popes then
like pope john xv who was quite corrpt in doling out wealth and positions of power to friends and family members
or benedict ix who SOLD the papacy lolz....very christlike indeed. you suppose holy spirit guided him to do that?
how about the stellar reign of nicholas III who gave away "distributed principalities in the Papal States among members of his family, essentially giving them land and political power." in the name of the father, son and holy ghost i'm sure. and somehow christians have a more advanced society and have better morals than pagans? laughable
bt i'm not done! oh no....there's so much more!
more nepotism from clement V, building up wealth for his spporters, despite the son of man not even having a place to lay his head...womp womp. jesus shoulda built himself a vatican if you ask me
leo x - "as soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs"
innocent iv authorized tortre during the inquisition
yessir....very christ-like that catholic church, so much better than the pagans, what with all the torture, bloodshed and corruption
also find it funny how christ said he was no part of the world, yet the popes have been nothing if not political. grabbing as mch power as they can while throwing even their own followers under the proverbial bus.
and what's up with stephen 7 exhming the body of the previous pope apparently 9 months into rot, putting said body on trial, cutting off the fingers of the body, stripping the body of vestments, dragging it through the streets and then throwing it in the river?
was that god? the holy spirit? or jesus? is this part of that superiority over the pagans? lmfao
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

shana and flyinghighnow, i sent you both messages
 
mP
mP 4 years ago

Its funny how Catholics talk about Jesus and Christianity but they dont realise the RC is not christian and it existed before Jesus. At no stage does the RC church ever use Christian in any of their official publications or institutions.
As always the etymology of the names reveals a lot about the subject.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Rbih, I live in the XXI century and I am on the side of the Church. You are obviously on the side of the Church enemies and that is fine with me. Good luck with them.
If you care about slavery there is plenty to do to stop this repugnant practice, as there are millions of people that are being enslaved and trafficked at present.
 
mP
mP 4 years ago

apostate:
If you care about slavery there is plenty to do to stop this repugnant practice, as there are millions of people that are being enslaved and trafficked at present.

mP -> apostate:
You mean like not being a pawn of one of the main proponents of slavery, the church. Churches like the RC and CoF were one of the biggest enemies of the liebration of slaves because they had significant investments.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Mp, should we conclude America is an enemy of the slave abolition as it had slaves until not that long ago, and it took a civil war to end the practice?
I don’t see the Church owning any slaves nowadays, on the contrary I see it defending human rights. Can’t say the same of her enemies.
I am going to leave this subject now, as it is more than clear for anyone that wants to see it.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

Rbih, I live in the XXI century and I am on the side of the Church. You are obviously on the side of the Church enemies and that is fine with me. Good luck with them.
this is fundamentally incorrect. i am not WITH the pagans, nor and i on AGAINST the church.
if you were bddhist and said spouted the same disgusting rhetoric against catholics i would have pointed out the many flaws in that very same argument.
what i AM against is someone like orthodox1, who joined only a few days ago only to sneakily try to convert people. there was no honesty in his approach at all.
1. he starts off by asking what authority jws, and any other chrch has to claim that they are the one true religion. perfectly reasonable question and people responded honestly to THAT question
2. he then lauunches into how it's the CATHOLIC church/christianity, according to HIM, that is the only religion that has god's backing. it becomes very obviouus that he wasn't honestly asking a question, he was trying to convert people
3. he then SPITS IN THE FACE OF OVER HALF THE PLANET by painting some global picture of catholics and christians being persecuted by pagans and how it is WONDERFUL that the pagan world has effectively been destroyed by the catholic church.
______
not only is that insulting, but it's false. the entire western hemisphere, from the tip of south america to the top of canada, didn't strike first in an effort to blast the christians away before setting foot on THEIR land. columbus wasn't slaughtered by the natives he first encountered. the natives hernan cortez first encountered THE AZTECS WHO SLAUGHTERED INVADERS AT FIRST SIGHT, thought he was a god and welcomed him into their city THINKING HE WAS THEIR GOD.
what orthodox1 said was disgusting and vile and indefensible and i pointed out the utter flaws in that terrible statement.
and that's when YOU stepped in to not only defend orthodox1, but to doble down on that hateful rhetoric.
in case you or anyone forgot what you said:
Maybe paganism was superior to the Bible. When Christopher Columbus arrived in America the Indians were practicing brutal human sacrifices. Maybe they should have been left alone.
Pagan morals are also much more fun than the Christian ones, just don’t expect the same level of spiritual development or even trustworthiness from a temple prostitute, than from a Christian. If you extrapolate this to the type of society they produce, you can see clearly which one is superior to the other.
there is NOTHING defensible about that statement. you then contine on by spouting white washed LIES while clearly showing you have no clue what the hell you are talking about, in an effort to defend thatVILE AND TWISTED PERVERSION OF HISTORY.
you have effectively insulted over half the planet, their ancestors, and moreimportantly all those who were tortured, raped, murdered, pillaged and plundered in the name of the father, son and the holy ghost. many of whom had no interest in warring with catholics or any other christians ntil they came over and tried to rob them of their wealth while subjugating them in order to trn a fast buck from sugar, cotton, tobacco, etc.
whole peoples were wiped out in the carribean. gone for all eternity, thanks to the diseases brought from europe by the christians.
that is FACT.
and then you go on to say this:
... If it bothers you the fact that Christianity is superior to paganism...
and you call yourself a christian...
while saying and acting as far from christ who DIDN'T conquer and enslave people, who sat and ate with sinners and those beneath him.
you however, look down your nose in contempt of others.
______
let me be clear on this, i don't care what you believe, i wouldn't care if you believed in fairies, goblins and ghouls. you could believe in darth vader for all i cared. had you been an aztec who said the same thing in reverse, stating that catholics should all burn in hell while claiming to have the one true religion that everyone should follow, etc...i would have turned the guns on quetzlcoatl and the human sacrifices while dismantling the logic of some god dragon/snake/bird.
i find it hilarious that you can point the finger at others and lay wild claims to THEIR past while overlooking the sordid history of your own religion.
and how DARE anyone point those out!!! you live in the 21st century!!!
so do the pagans and since we ARE talking the present, how's about that child abuse scandal? the vatican bank scandals?
lots to atone for.
i give you two scriptures to consider:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
and
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers"
DRINK UP
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago


 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

WOW!
Interesting responses!
From a historical point of view, I think the Church was corrupt but aside of that, I am not into mysticism, incense and black robes, but that's me.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


I don’t need to atone for what my country or my Church did in the middle ages.
I have just stated my opinion and you stated yours. The difference is that you got personal and rude, so don’t pretend to give me lessons on Christianity or anything else because I wont take them from you. Take care rbih.
 
Glander
Glander 4 years ago

I am 'jumping' in here, that is, I have not read all the preceding posts. Minimus is skilled at creating threads that everyone has an opinion on.
Anyway, here's my observation. (I am an atheist.)
If I were to embrace a religion it would be Cath. Lots of iconic, physical elements. Crosses, rosaries, crucifixion statues, Mary and the saints images, rituals up the kazoo for everything from birth to death. Feasts and observations, total deathbed forgivenance for anything you are ashamed of, meaning Al Capone is in heaven.
In other words, you get a lot of bang for the buck. You can get involved as deeply as you want but you don't have to do anything. Maybe wear a nics blingy crucifix.
JW's - just the opposite. No matter how good a person you are, you will not receive the reward if your meeting attendance and field service numbers are not in order on Judgement Day.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

you, isidore and orthodox1 have done nothing but insult over half the planet. you don't like it? get the hell out the damn kitchen.
using sneaky and underhanded tactics to convince ppl yo have the one true religion...check!
insulting people of every other faith? double check!
insinuating that somehow, YOU'RE culture is better than everyone else's? triple check!
no apology whatsoever for the vile bullshit you and your cronies have put out there? homerun!
orthodox1:
You see things very differently than history does... I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors. The evil Romans weren't then Evil Roman Catholics, but were converted through the love and prayers of the martyrs and laity of the Church.
absolte bullshit and a ridiclous twist of history, not surprising though, jst look at the jws whenever someone brings up 1914, 1925, the racism in the cult, malawi, etc. excuses and lies, excuses and lies
isidore:
Are you a hedge-my-bet agnostic?
Agnostics are just cowards that won't commit to anything.
oh that's VERY respectful of agnostics, which by definition, many would say that I am, but i'm supposed to sit here and accept some asshole saying i'm a coward that won't commit to anything? let me be frank, i'd rather commit to nothing than commit to my book of fairytales, i mean...the bible. really now, flying chariots, angels and some guy with magic hair that lets him kill lions with his bare hands? how's that ANY different than the multitude of mystical teachings of every other religion?
you:
Maybe paganism was superior to the Bible. When Christopher Columbus arrived in America the Indians were practicing brutal human sacrifices. Maybe they should have been left alone.
Pagan morals are also much more fun than the Christian ones, just don’t expect the same level of spiritual development or even trustworthiness from a temple prostitute, than from a Christian. If you extrapolate this to the type of society they produce, you can see clearly which one is superior to the other.
disgusting, nchristlike, vile.
and let's clear something up. christianity is based off the tribal teachings of the israelites who almost certainly ripped everything off of the egyptians, aka those PAGANS YOU LOOK DOWN UPON.
then you somehow claim that YOUR society is better than pagan ones? what the hell do you think the greeks and romans were? they believed in a multitude of gods and that so called christian society didn't spring up out of nowhere, it was built off of the advancements of the greeks and romans. had it not been for them, your society wouldn't be ANY different than the other middle eastern societies
what you said was just plain stupid and offensive and REPULSIVE.
to top it off, you have the nerve to cry foul when someone turns the microscope on yor beliefs after you've insulted theirs.
your hipocrisy is appauling and if you and your kind don't want to take it, my suggestion is to not dish out such insulting rhetoric.
bt of course, your whole method of validation is persecution as orthodox1 and isidore made clear:
orthodox1:
...anxiously awaiting the hate now...
THE VERY NEXT POST FROM ISIDORE:
If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you. [John 15:18] [Latin] [19] If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [20] Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
PATHETIC. apostate, lmao, you use the very same logic that the jws use to validate your faith.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

glander: the music is amazing. i played the violin for years and loved choral music. the concepts and ideas that came from the creativity of the baroque composers is incredible.
while this is not baroque, mozart's requiem always stunned me with the raw emotion it contained
 
Glander
Glander 4 years ago

Yes, the music, art and architechture are all timeless.
Geez, sometimes I regret being an atheist.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

there's quite a few old churches near my apt and i love walking by them. never ceases to amaze me what was accomplished without modern constrction equipment.
someday i'd like to see the vatican and many of the temples in india and around asia.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago


someday i'd like to see the vatican and many of the temples in india and around asia.
Me too
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

I am 'jumping' in here, that is, I have not read all the preceding posts. Minimus is skilled at creating threads that everyone has an opinion on.
Anyway, here's my observation. (I am an atheist.)
If I were to embrace a religion it would be Cath. Lots of iconic, physical elements. Crosses, rosaries, crucifixion statues, Mary and the saints images, rituals up the kazoo for everything from birth to death. Feasts and observations, total deathbed forgivenance for anything you are ashamed of, meaning Al Capone is in heaven.
In other words, you get a lot of bang for the buck. You can get involved as deeply as you want but you don't have to do anything. Maybe wear a nics blingy crucifix.
Glander, I appreciate your post.
Though I am a Universalist, I love the beauty of the rituals of the Roman Catholic and Anglican Catholic/Episcopal Churches. I love the music and shared history of the two. In old England, under one king or queen the buildings, bishops, priests, monks & nuns would be Roman and the next they'd be Anglican Catholic. Queen Elizabeth I finally came up with the Via Media, which means in Latin middle road. She took the best of the Roman church and added the best of reformation to form the Anglican (Catholic) Church, in order to stop the bloodshed between Roman and Anglican supporters. Today the Episcopal Church of the Americas, Church of Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Australia and others are part of the Anglican Communion.
Rituals and RC and AC music aren't for everyone. My mother, raised in the Presbyterian Church, chose my father's Episcopal Church when they were married. She was a classical pianist and soprano and became the music and choir director at our tiny church in Morgan City, LA. She sometimes played the organ, too. She brought her parents to church with us, one Sunday when they had come for a visit. I remember Mom asking Grandma how she enjoyed the service. (She wanted grandma to comment on her music and accomplisments.) Grandma said, "It was okay, but I don't like too much ritual." Mom looked kind of crushed. As an adult, I realized that she really wanted her parents to be proud of her beautiful musical contributions to our services.
In May of 2011, I went back to that sa,e church for the first time since 1970. I had such wonderful memories of Trinity Episcopal Church and I wanted to take communion there for the first time. In 1970, the organ was not visible to the congregation. Here's a 22 second video of the pre-service music. The second video is one someone else made with two of the Kyries and some RC buildings, etc. The music can be very moving.




&feature=fvwrel
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

I have to say though, most American RC churches sound more like a folk music hootenanny anymore and in larger churches people just line up single file and stand for communion, no longer kneeling for it. I like the more beautiful services, music and kneeling for communion that we still do in the Episcopal Church in the US.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Is this thread finally kaput?
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

i hope so. i'm rather sick of seeing people continuously trying to jstify the bigoted things they've said.
i wonder how it is that someone can have so little respect for other people's cltures and customs. especially when they came out of a cult which spposedly pushed love and respect for everyone. maybe that was the problem. the cult was a lie, and taught that they had the one true religion so of course everyone else was not much more than neanderthals who slaughtered each other mercilessly and whatever religion they jumped ship to, those old trappings came with.
that or a complete lack of home training. i could see that too.
anyway, catholicism isn't weirder than practically anything mormons and scientologists do.
there were human sacrifices in some religions
animal sacrifices in the old jewish religion...i dont think they do that anymore
there's witch doctors
OMG THERE'S A JEDI CHURCH????? i think i found my new pursuit. i've ALWAYS wanted to be a jedi. i admit though, eventually i'm going to turn sith. may the force be with me though. can't wait til i make my own lightsaber.
if catholicism is weird and it's trappings are silly, then i guess most western secular music is also weird considering the catholic influence can still be seen within it today.
at the very least in the FACT that we now write music down instead of orally passing it down from generation to generation
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago


anyway, catholicism isn't weirder than practically anything mormons and scientologists do.
That doesn't make it any less strange, silly or weird.
As an ex Catholic...I stand by that....Just as a nearly JW I stand by the fact that the WTS is strange silly and weird too...
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

Mormonism and Scientology is weird too, fyi.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 4 years ago

Seeing firsthand how the Catholic church has amassed great wealth in creating ornate palaces to themselves instead of following Jesus' example of helping the poor and sick, it has done the opposite of inspiring me to see the 'church' as anything more than what I see the WTS... money grubbing, power wielding control freaks.
Translation: [ALL] Religion is a Snare & A Racket


Doc
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

Well, without comment on the religious aspects, I would have to say that the Pope-Mobile is a pretty weird creation - given that Rome is in Italy, and that Italy created the Ferrari, the Maserati, and the Lamborghini.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

It's better than the Batmobile!
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

But not as good as the Oscar-Meyer wiener-mobile!!! Now THAT is American ingenuity.
V.P. candidate Paul Ryan said on TV that he once got to drive the wiener-mobile
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

weird from our own particular perspective.
unlike the jws, not all catholics follow every single cstom and some are, well...someday i wanna see carnival in brazil
either way, there's a difference between weird and different and there's also i'd point out that many things aren't followed by all practitioners.
if that's the case, is it really a custom of ALL catholics? or a local thing?
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

whoa now james woods...the batmobile is pretty freakin' bad ass
i'd wager the batmobile would beat the scuderia around monza
maybe not the f2004 with schumi at the wheel, but most of the others lol
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

Hades, of course it's one's own perspective or opinion as the thread title suggests.
I'm just not referring to the weirdness of santeria, I'm suggesting the whole mystic concept is weird to me and obviously some others.
I don't think YOU are a weirdo simply because you're Catholic....maybe other reasons, I dunno.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

hahaha have you SEEN my responses to the three stooges?
i've been bashing catholicism left and right for the better part of the past few days. eventally i'll explain it. it's kinda worn me out to be honest.
i'm most decidedly NOT religious in faaaaact...
think i'm becoming an atheist

lolz.
if i'm honest, there are some things that make me leery, but i'd say that about every religion. there's some good and bad that can be had with 'em all.
as long as there's no physical harm (like killing innocent kids by refusing to let them have blood transfusions) or no mental harm (like...well...telling that child everyone he loves is gonna be gone in armageddon and that he should spend his youth preaching instead of going to college like he wants to, or play sports or have fun with the other kids) then it's whatever
do you know WHY i wanna go check out carnival in brazil? or any carribean country for that matter...hahahaha
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

rbih,
if i'm honest, there are some things that make me leery, but i'd say that about every religion. there's some good and bad that can be had with 'em all.
as long as there's no physical harm (like killing innocent kids by refusing to let them have blood transfusions) or no mental harm (like...well...telling that child everyone he loves is gonna be gone in armageddon and that he should spend his youth preaching instead of going to college like he wants to, or play sports or have fun with the other kids) then it's whatever
.. Just wanted to finally agree with you about some things
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

YOU are a damned liar. NOTHING you have said even REMOTELY agrees with what i said
YOU:
ou see things very differently than history does... I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors. The evil Romans weren't then Evil Roman Catholics, but were converted through the love and prayers of the martyrs and laity of the Church.
ISIDORE:
Agnostics are just cowards that won't commit to anything.
APOSTATEBLUNDER:
Maybe paganism was superior to the Bible. When Christopher Columbus arrived in America the Indians were practicing brutal human sacrifices. Maybe they should have been left alone.
Pagan morals are also much more fun than the Christian ones, just don’t expect the same level of spiritual development or even trustworthiness from a temple prostitute, than from a Christian. If you extrapolate this to the type of society they produce, you can see clearly which one is superior to the other.
don't you DARE claim to think that all religions are fine. YOUR ENTIRE PURPOSE COMING HERE WAS TO CONVERT.
i find you and your stooge friends to be contemptable and as far from christian as can be.
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Wow, I come to meet you on some common ground and have been promoted from an asshole to a liar.
You assume to know me and my intentions, which is amazing. I can't say that I know much about you except for what you post here. If I judged you solely on what you post, I would come to a conclusion that I don't want to put here because I don't want to pretend that I know you.
Since you think you know me, let me give you some actual info about myself:
1) I think all people, from all walks of life and religions, have the same chances as I do to attain to the heaven I believe in.
2) I do not judge anyone; only our Blessed Lord can do so, and I would be a hypocrite to judge anyone since I am far from perfect (this you call fake humility, but you will say what you will say).
3) I do desire dialogue and debate over differences because I think we all have something to gain from one-another.
4) I am not a ninja. From the outset, I have let everyone know that I am Catholic. Why wouldn't I? Do you dare say that you are not biased and have to presuppositions coming onto these forums? You sound rather defensive about your own positions.
5) I truly do not hate, dislike, or want to ridicule anyone not like me. I don't think anyone are assholes or liars because they think a different way than me. I actually am very happy to live in a world where we are so different. Yes, I would love everyone to be Catholic, but I love everyone even though not everyone is Catholic. I know our Blessed Lord loves all, not just those who call themselves "Catholic", "Baptist", "Lutheran", "Muslim", "Jewish", etc., etc.
Basically, it comes down to this: I have two little ones. There is nothing that would cause me to not love them. Why in the world would anyone think God could hate any one of his creation? Certainly, one of my little ones could grow up, hate me, and never speak to me again, which is every person's free will to do with God as well. I am of the belief, in line with my Catholic faith, that it is not how one worships or the many things one does, but it is their love for God and their neighbor that will be rewarded. I believe the Catholic faith is the fullness of this love, but those who don't have it aren't somehow lesser beings.
Try harder rbih. You are far from being hated by me. In fact, the more you lash out at me and others, the more I feel for you and wish you well.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

MP:
Its funny how Catholics talk about Jesus and Christianity but they dont realise the RC is not christian and it existed before Jesus. At no stage does the RC church ever use Christian in any of their official publications or institutions.
The first sentence is an opinion and I am sure a billion people would disagree with you. One of the few things I learned about the Watchtower before coming to this site was that "Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Christian". That was said by a man who pointed out that JW's don't believe Jesus is God. He said that you had to believe in Jesus as God to properly call yourself a Christian. It seems to me he had a point. But I am saying this only to underline that this first statement of yours is open to debate.
The second sentence is simply not true. Let us just say that Catholics use the word "Christian" a hell of a lot less than others. From the Catholic perspective, protestants are "also" Christians.
 
dgp
dgp 4 years ago

Oh, and Santería is not Catholic. Catholics and Santeros would tell you just that. Santería was the way for the old African religion to survive, giving Christian names to African deities.
In other regions there was also a mix of beliefs. None is more succesful than the Virgin of Guadalupe, known to many as "Tonantzin", the old Aztec goddess.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

you are FAR from any sort of common ground from me and yor fake hmility is just that FAKE.
and transparent.
the simple fact that you claim to sit around praying for people who neither ask, nor WANT it is disgusting. there's no humility in that.
nor is there any in this:
You see things very differently than history does... I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors. The evil Romans weren't then Evil Roman Catholics, but were converted through the love and prayers of the martyrs and laity of the Church.
and this:
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be merciful, love your neighbor and your enemy, confess your sins to one-another, eat my flesh and drink my blood, baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, "this is your mother" referring to Mary who says "all generations shall call me blessed", participate in the communion of saints, institution of the office of Peter as the head of the Church on earth....
YEP, SOUNDS LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO ME!
...anxiously awaiting the hate now...
humility my ass. don't play dumb with me. don't assume we're all too stupid to see your transparent bullshit. frankly i don't give a damn WHAT you or those other stooges think of me. you can chose to say it or not. it wouldn't matter to me one iota.
1) I think all people, from all walks of life and religions, have the same chances as I do to attain to the heaven I believe in.
if you REALLY believed that, then why convert people? better yet, why try to do so in such a sneaky manner? and yes it was sneaky as all hell and you know it. you start off by asking a question that SOUNDED genuine, people even RESPONDED to that original question.
then you pull this stunt:
Christ's Instructions:
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be merciful, love your neighbor and your enemy, confess your sins to one-another, eat my flesh and drink my blood, baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, "this is your mother" referring to Mary who says "all generations shall call me blessed", participate in the communion of saints, institution of the office of Peter as the head of the Church on earth....
YEP, SOUNDS LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO ME!
...anxiously awaiting the hate now...
you got called out. not just by me, and deservedly so.
2) I do not judge anyone; only our Blessed Lord can do so, and I would be a hypocrite to judge anyone since I am far from perfect (this you call fake humility, but you will say what you will say).
this is humble in your world??? i sure hate to see what haughty is.
YEP, SOUNDS LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO ME!
...anxiously awaiting the hate now...
You see things very differently than history does... I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors. The evil Romans weren't then Evil Roman Catholics, but were converted through the love and prayers of the martyrs and laity of the Church.
verrrrrrrrrrry nonjdgemental i must say. </sarcasm>
3) I do desire dialogue and debate over differences because I think we all have something to gain from one-another.
don't act like you wanted a debate. quit lying to yourself and to me. it's insulting that you would think so lowly of my intelligence that i couldn't see past the pathetic attempt to "prove some point". the very nature of your posts indicate you believe the catholic church is THE ONE CHURCH WITH THE AUTHORITY FROM GOD. frankly, i have NOTHING to gain from you or your stooge friends.
4) I am not a ninja. From the outset, I have let everyone know that I am Catholic. Why wouldn't I? Do you dare say that you are not biased and have to presuppositions coming onto these forums? You sound rather defensive about your own positions.
from the outset my ass. you start off by asking an innocent question, you get innocent responses except from isidore. you and isidore play off each for a couple posts, you literally made the original post and ONE OTHER POST BEFORE THIS:
YEP, SOUNDS LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO ME!
...anxiously awaiting the hate now...
you NEVER wanted a damn debate. you weren't looking to gain any knowledge whatsoever. you were only looking to prove some nensensical point.
and you were looking to validate it by way of "persecution"
5) I truly do not hate, dislike, or want to ridicule anyone not like me. I don't think anyone are assholes or liars because they think a different way than me. I actually am very happy to live in a world where we are so different. Yes, I would love everyone to be Catholic, but I love everyone even though not everyone is Catholic. I know our Blessed Lord loves all, not just those who call themselves "Catholic", "Baptist", "Lutheran", "Muslim", "Jewish", etc., etc.

I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors.
say what? get real. yo have an agenda and you sure as hell don't believe that it's okay for others to believe something different than you. the VERY NATURE OF CONVERSION makes this the case. if everyone can believe whatever the hell they want, then you wouldn't be converting anyone.
I am of the belief, in line with my Catholic faith, that it is not how one worships or the many things one does, but it is their love for God and their neighbor that will be rewarded. I believe the Catholic faith is the fullness of this love, but those who don't have it aren't somehow lesser beings.
see the above posts.
Try harder rbih. You are far from being hated by me. In fact, the more you lash out at me and others, the more I feel for you and wish you well.
don't presume to think i need your prayers, nor do i need your false humility. i'm not interested in your blessings and i don't give a damn about your religion.
it's your attitude, lies, insulting nature and your false hmility that disgusts me
 

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my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

i would like to explain to everyone on the board WHY i have gone so hard against these three.
I, like many others, have struggled coming to terms with who i am and what i believe after leaving the cult of jehovah's witnesses. it's been so many years, i left around 2004 or 2005...i forget which to be exact, and STILL it is difficult at times. i wish i had come on here sooner. i might have spared myself considerable amounts of heartache. it's sad, but i had no idea about the insane flip flops, the false teachings, i didn't even know about 607 for crying out loud.
recent events have made me reexamine what it is i believe and how i feel. namely, the passing of my grandmother.
my grandmother was japanese. i am 1/4 japanese and 3/4 african american. this means that my ancestors were all pagan by definition.
in fact, my grandmother's family owned a large buddhist(read PAGAN) temple on one of the southern japanese islands.
by definition, she was pagan, she had ZERO interest in christianity whatsoever and her ancestors, MY ANCESTORS, were pagan as well.
for my part, i am an agnostic of sorts, though i don't really care to be boxed in with that label. recently i've questioned whether i even believe in god, some of you may have responded to that topic i started.
that, is the basic backstory. there's a lot more to the story, why the circumstances of her passing are so painful to me, i'm not sure i should get into that, but suffice to say, i don't really have any communication with the rest of my family at this point.
so recently this thread pops up:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/230680/1/By-What-Authority
at first i paid no attn to it. i'm not even sure why i opened it. i did and the initial question seemed interesting enough.
turns out it was nothing more than a sneaky and nderhanded method of trying to convert people. fine, whatever. i'm not perfect and i myself tried to use a similar tactic with my mother with the explicit purpose of being able to explain WHY my life had been so up and down after leaving. frankly, if she wanted to stay in, that's her business. i'd prefer she didn't and i certainly don't want to be around it, but whatever. i don't even live in the same state as her anyway.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/229552/1/Trying-to-talk-to-my-mom-really-discouraged-need-help
the conversion tactic used, while rather irritating imo, is NOT why i went on the attack.
as i stated, my grandmother was pagan. her ancestors were pagan. my ancestors were pagan...all of them until slavery at least.
what absoltely pissed me the hell off was this:
ISIDORE:
Are you a hedge-my-bet agnostic?
Agnostics are just cowards that won't commit to anything.
AND THIS FROM ORTHODOX1:
You see things very differently than history does... I see the Catholic Church, over hundreds of years, slowly assuming all of the Roman Pagan world into herself, destroying the Pagan world as it was known, that stood for a thousand years as oppressors. The evil Romans weren't then Evil Roman Catholics, but were converted through the love and prayers of the martyrs and laity of the ChurcH
not only is that absolute BULLSHIT and a flat out stupid twist of reality, it's insulting as hell to boot.
and completely against the tenants jesus himself taught. assuming he was REAL which, given the absolte lack of evidence and the claims of miracles, it's hard to believe he ever was.
and yes we DO know lincoln was real. we have his speeches, eyewitness accountsby both friend and foe made AT THE TIME HE WAS LIVING (JOSEPHUS WAS BORN AFTER CHRIST HAD DIED, LEARN SOME HISTORY), we have laws made to this day signed by him. we know exactly where he was born, exactly where he had died and the last living survivor of the war he presided over died in 1956. jesus christ what kind of stupid argment was that?
i decided to respond. it's not the fact that this is catholicism. it's the god awful nature of those posts, that piss me off.
I'M agnostic.
MY GRANDMOTHER WAS PAGAN
MY CULTURE IS PAGAN (i might be only a small percentage japanese, but my grandmother made sure i was in tune with it)
pretty damn insulting if you ask me.
my response to that was that the pagan comment was pretty distasteful and i pointed out quite a few flaws in the logic that somehow, someway, the catholics were in anyway "better" than everyone else.
then this, not all at once, and there's been nothing but pathetic jstification for the wiping out of whole societies and cultures for no other reason than profits, greed and bigotry:
Maybe paganism was superior to the Bible. When Christopher Columbus arrived in America the Indians were practicing brutal human sacrifices. Maybe they should have been left alone.
Pagan morals are also much more fun than the Christian ones, just don’t expect the same level of spiritual development or even trustworthiness from a temple prostitute, than from a Christian. If you extrapolate this to the type of society they produce, you can see clearly which one is superior to the other.
If it bothers you the fact that Christianity is superior to paganism...
the majority of the population in South America are of Indian descent, it seems the main objective was never to annihilate them or rob them their land. They are still there.
I find atheists silly, strange and weird. Also very intolerant.
to all those catholics NOT named isidore, apostatethnder and orthodox1, i truly am sorry if i have offended you. as an agnostic/atheist, i have no issue with anyone else's religion, but i DO take issue when someone insults my culture and my grandmother in sch a way. that's too much. absolutely too much.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

I see. Curious: why didn't you just say you are insane right at the start? Couldn't we have all saved some time and aggravation? You could say, "I am crazy and respond with complete fury whenever anyone indirectly insults the religion one grandparent practiced." Then everyone would know. Save some time, see?
But, hey, as a Catholic not specifically named (and, by the way, "Catholic" is a proper noun and is, in English, capitalized), I appreciate your apology. Insincere apologies are fascinating to me but usually I dont get to see quite so much absurd self-justification. You've elevated it to the next level, really, and I applaud you. Well done.
 
Robdar
Robdar 4 years ago

I have many Catholic friends and family. They are very sweet people; however, I have never, not once, met a Catholic that isnt effed up--especially about sex. Bless their hearts.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

I think RC & Episcopalian guys have been the best ones I've dated or married. The best kissers by far. Just say'n'.  First husband, Andy both RC, though Andy was raised RC ,but received into the Episcopal Church after we started dating. Another couple of guys I dated were RC & E and witty, intelligent and fun to be with.*sigh* Or maybe *swoon*
 
Robdar
Robdar 4 years ago

FHN, I totally agree--the RC and E guys I've kissed are great kissers although atheists are very good kissers too.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Robdar, good kissing is a very, very good thing whever you find it.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Does your Lord love atheists like me
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

rbih,
Finally, after accusing me of having an agenda, you finally admit you have one. Thank you for your honesty, though late in this discourse...
But I do admit, I feel it is very unloving and unChristian of me to encourage your anger, so I apologize and will let you have the last word. Though you will likely tell me you don't want my prayers, you're going to get them anyway, for you and your family. I hope you don't let some disagreeable, irritating bloggers such as myself and others you list, get the best of you; we're not worth the stress. We are only usernames that know how to push your buttons.
God bless and love you...
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

Pope-Mobile 1, 11, and 111 were all progressively weirder than the one that came before.
I still find Orthodox1 to be merely a rabidly pro-Catholic troll - and think he is probably embarrassing to our Catholic ex-JWs here.
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

Flyin, you are funny!!!
I never understood that some religions make better kissers! lol
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Flyin, you are funny!!!
I never understood that some religions make better kissers! lol
Hehe. I've only had one JW kiss me and that was my exhusband. Out of kindness to my son's father, I will not give a rating. Yes, I'd love to know the religions of the bad or mediocre kissers.
 
Glander
Glander 4 years ago

Is it not true that Tonsil Hockey is one of the stations of the cross?
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Is it not true that Tonsil Hockey is one of the stations of the cross?
What you mention is not kissing, it's assault. TH makes very bad kissing.
 
caliber
caliber 4 years ago

 Is not for everyone
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

It's because we understand a liturgy: you have a whole lotta intermediate steps until the payoff; best to make the intermediate steps worthwhile. Catholics are all wait, wait, wait, boom!
Just sayin'.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

The best thing the witnesses taught me was how to call out bullshit on other religions. Once I turned it on them, they were done for. So how anyone goes from being a Witness to being a Cathoholic, is beyond me. Did you miss out on the religious bullshit detector the WTS passed out? You know the one that said "Never use this logic on the WTS"
Religion is a snare and racket....all religion!
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


The WT is not a religion, it’s a corporation. They do a good job in destroying people’s spirituality.
Not all religions are like that, and not all religions control your life the way the WT does.
Religion is the external representation of our spiritual beliefs. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Diest, giving more support to the Sullan hypothesis: JW-ism is more closely related to atheism than Christianity.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

The best thing the witnesses taught me was how to call out bullshit on other religions. Once I turned it on them, they were done for. So how anyone goes from being a Witness to being a Cathoholic, is beyond me. Did you miss out on the religious bullshit detector the WTS passed out? You know the one that said "Never use this logic on the WTS"
Religion is a snare and racket....all religion!

Aww geez. This has gotta be a troll. No way its legit.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

How is that trolling BTS. I honestly believe that they would point out the issues in all the other religions. They just failed to mention their own issues.
Look at the issue credit cards donations. The pointed to how other religions were just out there for the money. They are right, but then they fall in their own trap. They do it time and time again. Point out an issue that other religions have and then fall into the same pile of shit.

The Catholic church is a corporation like none other. They are a head of the game and have a city-state, and a seat at the UN. They are focused on power and control just the same.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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by Island Man a year ago
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by OrphanCrow 9 months ago
GrownMidget
Long Story of my Life/Experience
by GrownMidget 4 months ago
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by Freeandclear a month ago



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

No, I agree with Diest. WT spent so much time pointing out the hypocrisy in other religions, that once turned on them, they were done. After that, we only needed to verify that what they said about others was true, and if it was, and we still found it hypocritical, we didn't need to join to evaluate such.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

NC, given that the JWs lied about every other damn thing they ever told you, does it make their criticism of Catholicism more or less likely to be accurate? So, they pull 607 out of their ass, but that bit about corruption by the Catholics is spot-on?
First collorary to the Sullan hypothesis: people who are prone to antipathy toward religion join the JWs in higher-than-average rates.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

Sulla,
Look up the History of the Catholic Church. All of the eviednece needed to hang them is contained in history. We dont need the specifics of what the JWS said to destroy the credibility of the Catholics, they did that for themselves. The Witnesses just pointed you in the direction of well known issues within the Church. The JWs then proceeded to fall right into those same issues. Much like they followed the same pattern of the pharisiees.

I dont know about your colloray, I was a born in and the person in my family who had found the religion had gone through a few choices and liked the lack of hellfire.

Tell us what is your theory on people who leave the Catholic Church, become a JW, and then go back? If it was wrong enough to leave once, why did they go back?
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Sulla---you assume I just took their word for it. i did not. The hypocrisy is there for all to investigate. It may mean more to others, and some may be able to dismiss and excuse it. They may feel the good outweighs the bad. They may think it was simply imperfect people that were disobeying their god. Whatever---but it's there.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

Look up the History of the Catholic Church.
Talk about condescending. You think those of us who became Catholic after leaving the JWs haven't?
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

BTS my point is I didnt have to ask the JWs to know about the Catholics. Did you point out Sullas condesention in thinking that I just took the JWs word for it?
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

The hypocrisy is there for all to investigate. It may mean more to others, and some may be able to dismiss and excuse it. They may feel the good outweighs the bad. They may think it was simply imperfect people that were disobeying their god. Whatever---but it's there...New Chapter


Sometimes I get the impression people join the catholic religion to spite the WTS...they were wrong about everything else...must be wrong about that...well...they weren't too wrong about that....except for the armageddon crap.
Religion is a snare and a racket including the WTS & the Catholic church.. it is the opiate of the massess.
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

Did you point out Sullas condesention in thinking that I just took the JWs word for it?
Why would I, since you basically admitted to it in your previous post?
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

BTS were you a catholic before and after your JW stint?
 
botchtowersociety
botchtowersociety 4 years ago

I was born into JWism. My family, however, is originally of Catholic heritage.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Diest, we are not living in the middle ages now. People that want to bring the Church down nowadays don’t do so for whatever happened 500 years ago, they do it because they have a political agenda and the Church is an obstacle for that agenda. It is as simple as this.
The Vatican is not a corporation, sorry, it is a State, and it holds the culture, history and traditions of Europe and therefore of our Western society. What they stand for is human rights, charity, education, and individual freedoms.
The WT does not even compute in a barometer against it.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

If the Catholic Church was as perfect as it detractors would have it to be, they themsleves would not be allowed in it. It is because it has sinners that it has a place for you and for me.
I think all of us on this forum (most especially myself!) are sinners. Christ came for sinners. He never promised that no one would ever sin in His Church. It amazes me how people will point to the few that have grossly sinned and ignore the overwhelming amount of saintly poeple that it has produced, as if it is a all or nothing, zero sum exercise.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

Yeah, what was the Irish political agenda when they canceled their diplomatic mission with the Vatican? Spend less money, and tired of a "state" that covered over the abuse of children.
I know about their charity here in the US, it is primarily tax payer funded. The American public owns 62% of the charity arm, but they complain when the government tried to ask them to give birth control to non-Catholic employees. I am thankful for the 3% of donations comeing from Diocesan funding.



This is from the Catholic Charities website.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


The Irish should ask themselves why the authorities did nothing in the case of the abuses, because it seems they knew what was going on.
Unfortunately there are paedophiles everywhere, not only in the Church. Something to consider in view of the above.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

The culture of silence that was created by the government and the church was a powerful thing. It is hard to remove government from our lives, much easier to purge religion.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Much better to punish the guilty and leave everyone else alone.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

The Vatican is not a corporation, sorry, it is a State, and it holds the culture, history and traditions of Europe and therefore of our Western society. What they stand for is human rights, charity, education, and individual freedoms.
The Vatican is a city built on money grabbing, torture, murder, and prostitution...thats HOW it became a city.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Hypocrisy. What better place for hypocrites than church? Don't they need it the most? Church is a spiritual hospital: it's not for the perfect. You go to church to heal. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only "church" I've attended where everyone went around pretending they were all 98% perfect. And the gov bod perpetuates that myth that witnesses are so much more better at being Christians.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

NC, I don't necessarily think you just too the JWs word for antipathy for Catholics. It does seem to be an interesting exception to the process by which nearly everything else they taught has been rejected. So many xJWs still hold that anti-Catholicism -- that's interesting to me. Could be, stopped clocks are right twice a day, etc.
Or, it could be the general idea I have been suggesting here for a while now: Jw-ism is a thing that tends to attract certain personality types. When people leave the JWs, they don't change their personality; they remain who they always have been. I don't view that as a controversial idea, everyone has their own stories about how difficult it is to stop thinking like a JW -- down to things like their vocabulary.
If JW-ism tends to attract anti-religious, utopian, Manichean types, then you would expect to find certain political and religious viewpoints to obtain whether these are JWs or xJWs. Certainly, you could expect to find antipathy toward the Church, which is religious, anti-utopian, anti-Manichean.
Of course, in any population of sufficient size, you'd expect to find considerable variation in these attitudes. But at least they are testable hypotheses: we could do a test to find whether anti-Catholic attitudes are more deeply felt among XJWs than among the population at large and correlate them with the attitudes toward Catholics among current JWs.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

 But at least they are testable hypotheses: we could do a test to find whether anti-Catholic attitudes are more deeply felt among XJWs than among the population at large and correlate them with the attitudes toward Catholics among current JWs.

I dunno sula....why don't you see what former Catholics have to say....
http://www.formercatholic.com/

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Am-An-Angry-Ex-catholic/329390
 

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my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Well, former Catholics aren't former JWs, as a general matter, are they? So how would that matter to the testable hypothesis I outlined?
Or are you just talking about something else entirely?
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

well, you seem to dismiss any objection to Catholicism by labelling it an ex JW attitude as though that is the only reason anyone would dislike catholicism. It seems like the classic way to dismiss what people are saying. Oh, you're just like that because you were a JW. I'd imagine Protestants in Ireland aren't too keen on Catholic religion too...and they aren't even ex JW's. Ex Catholics aren't keen on the Catholic religion, and they aren't ex JW's.
Well we can all use that argument...you just flopped into another religion...because you are an ex JW. There, does that make sense too?
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Sulla,
In many ways, I don't think I was a typical JW, but I also don't think I'm unique. Just not typical. I actually had nothing against the many churches out there, in fact, I attended many of them. JW's started pointing out the hypocrisy, and it was then that I researched it and found they had a valid point. Unfortunately, I didn't go far enough---I should have scrutinized WT more closely. In my defense, this was before we all had internet, and there was much more information, history, and revelations about the other churches easily available. I only needed a history book, and did not need to depend on disgruntled exmembers as my source---because those are always suspect.
When I walked away, I was not 'anit-JW'. Not at all. I walked away from belief in general, but had not found a lot of fault with the JW's specifically----I just realized they were like all the rest. I didn't have some of the other negative experiences that others have had. I had my share, but they are topped by many other stories.
So the issue for me comes in when Christians pretend that they have better morals and were a force for good in the world. They don't, and they weren't. Individuals certainly did good things, but the institutions themselves drove a lot of dodgy stuff. Atheists have also done some pretty bad things, but they weren't driven by atheism, because atheism has no organization or rules. It's not a code of conduct, it is simply a description of how a person views gods. That doesn't prevent an atheist from picking up another ideology that drives them. But atheism has no pope or GB to direct them---they are on their own.
I think what we actually have here is not a left over JW thing, but people who've had to employ a great deal of critical thinking to escape a cult, but did not turn it off when it came to other religions. As I said, some people may come to different conclusions when they look at a religion's history, and they may be able to reconcile it all with their current belief. But I don't think dismissing valid criticism as just some left over JW thingy is legitimate. They have simply come to a different conclusion than you have when looking at your churche's long and bloody history.
And some of us find fault with their current behavior also. I have a real issue with them teaching that birth control is evil and condems bad in countries that are devastated by poverty and AIDS. It is dispicable. So I don't give them kudos for feeding the poor and caring for the sick. I also don't give them kudos for setting up schools where they teach this evil doctrine. To me it is more like they have created their own problems, and now they must clean it up, and they want patted on the back. Sorry, no. They would make a REAL impact on poverty and illness if they let go of this ridiculous teaching, and gave their followers a bit more self determination. Trusting them to make decisions based on economics and ability to care for children rather than forcing them to produce children they can't care for in stressed areas. They could teach THAT in their many schools.
NC
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

Granted,
Nearly every fundamentalist protestant group I know of dislikes, and mistrusts the catholics. They dont even seem to be on the edge of Atheism. Seems that most non catholics are rather anti-catholic. It is a giant group that painted a giant bullseye on itself. We know their history.

I am excited for the day that we get a Non-Euro Pope. Latin America, and Africa have much better participation on the local level, so it only seems fair that we get a non euro-pope. I will love to hear from some of the more racist elements around the world when we have an African or Latino Pope.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago


Protestants would do well in looking at their own history before pointing the finger to anyone else.
A Pope shouldn’t be elected for racial reasons, or to make a point, or to keep detractors happy, just whoever happens to be more qualified for the position.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Still Thinking, you are greatly over-loading my viewpoint. What I think is that several attitudes or viewpoints seem to remain (on average, or in higher than what would be expected against a random sample in the population) with JWs after they leave the religion. I have said before that some key attributes of JWs are a Manichean viewpoint and utopianism. JWs tend to see everything as a battle of evil against good and miss the (Catholic?) inisight that we all are sinners and, therefore, broken in profound ways. xJWs seem very often (in my anecdotal observation, which is why I have an hypothesis rather than the axioms I joke about) to hold these attitudes even after they have rejected the specific claims of the JWs.
So, here is sorta what I mean: JWs claim they are the True Church, chosen by God a hundred years ago. Why were they chosen? Not because they were teaching correctly, but because they alone of all the people of the world were attempting to break away from the evils of apostate Christianity. Apostate Christianity, for 2,000 years, had been teaching anti-Christianity because they were corrupt, selfish, greedy, or otherwise bad people. The only solution is to root it out completely, since there is nothing at all that can be salvaged.
Now, this attitude is not exclusive to JWs, it shows up in lots of other places. But I suggest that JW-ism pulls from people with these atitudes; converts to JW-ism are more likely than average to hold these viewpoints and find the JW solution to them to be compelling. When thay leave the JWs, these attitudes tend not to change, I think.
But, and to finally get to the point, this viewpoint is the opposite of most old ways of thinking about the human condition. A "tragic" or Catholic approach tends to think of corruption or selfishness as a thing that everyone is susceptible to. You, me, all of us are liable to act in bad ways when we get the chance; we are not better than anyone else. What we can hope to do is develop virtue, but that's an uneven process. There aren't any solutions, and there isn't really much difference between us and people who do bad things.
The JW viewpoint tends to break the world into two groups: JWs and assholes. XJWs tend to do the same thing, just with a different identification of the good guys.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

NC, I think we may view the sin of hypocricy in a different way. I think it is a very small sort of sin, one that everybody is guilty of -- especially those who claim to hate it most. So, sure, Christians are hypocrites. So is everybody else. I don't think it's a big deal.
So the issue for me comes in when Christians pretend that they have better morals and were a force for good in the world. They don't, and they weren't. Individuals certainly did good things, but the institutions themselves drove a lot of dodgy stuff.
The institutions certainly did some dodgy stuff, so did the people. Both also did some really positive stuff, which I think you are in the habit of undervaluing. Establishing hopsitals and schools is a pretty big deal, for example; these were things the religious institutions did long before any government figured it should bother with that sort of thing. Just an example.
Atheists have also done some pretty bad things, but they weren't driven by atheism, because atheism has no organization or rules. It's not a code of conduct, it is simply a description of how a person views gods. That doesn't prevent an atheist from picking up another ideology that drives them. But atheism has no pope or GB to direct them---they are on their own.
Weren't "driven" by atheism? Not sure I can agree. I certainly agree that atheism doesn't have a set of requirements requiring or prescribing various actions. But there is a philosophical core within atheism that is problematic for this idea.
I think what we actually have here is not a left over JW thing, but people who've had to employ a great deal of critical thinking to escape a cult, but did not turn it off when it came to other religions. As I said, some people may come to different conclusions when they look at a religion's history, and they may be able to reconcile it all with their current belief. But I don't think dismissing valid criticism as just some left over JW thingy is legitimate. They have simply come to a different conclusion than you have when looking at your churche's long and bloody history.
I hear ya. I disagree, sorta. For the following reasons:
Atheism's long and bloody history is longer and bloodier. The Cultural Revolution, the genocide in the Vendee, the starvation of the Ukranians, etc., etc., etc. Throw in National Socialism's paganism, and the score gets pretty lopsided. I've gotta own Bloody Mary, you gotta own Pol Pot. Fair's fair.
So, if you are really looking at long bloody history and choosing between atheism and Catholicism, it seems to me you only get one answer. Atheist's are, I suppose, not acting hypocritically; maybe that counts for something.
I think you may greatly overestimate the degree to which critical thinking plays a role in people leaving the JWs. If you look at the de-conversion stories, they almost always involve some mistreatment at the hands of the JWs. You and I are exceptions to this general rule, it seems. Even if we weren't exceptions to the rule, is it really a great analytical achievement to figure out the JWs are nonsense? I don't think it is.
 
Diest
Diest 4 years ago

How are you going to throw " National Socialism's paganism" into the mix with Atheists? Weren't Facists/Nazis and Communits enemies? Didn't the Catholics lend support toe the National Socialists? Quit reaching.

None of the Atheist you have met are supporting the ideas of a Central State Communism. If you include Pol Pot who was just was anti-science as he was anti-religion, then I can include any religious group that has ever appeared. In the end the theistic umbrella includes more than enough evil people to balance out that "score."

Prince Norodom Sihanouk was the former king of Cambodia from 1941 as well as Head of State from 1955 to 1970 before resigning in 1976. He once said of Pol Pot:
"Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler."
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

"if they were REALLY faithful, they NEVER would have left the congregation and if they REALLY wanted to worship god, they would see this is the truth!!!"
-any jw still in and under the mind control

"exJWs have a hatred for the catholic church because they were taught to hate it from the JWs. if only they were open minded!"
-?
 
minimus
minimus 4 years ago

If you were to accept all of the Catholic Church's teachings and beliefs, you might not think JWs are all that different. STRICTLY speaking, the RCC has some pretty radical beliefs and their history is problematic for them, imho.
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

When you make too much sense: jehovahs-witness.net silences you. See forum "What about History?" and notice that I have been deleted, or silenced. Here is the message I receieved, and my response:

Jgnat:
The picture of the dead fetus was offensive.
 I understand that you are passionate about this subject, but this is the wrong way to broadcast interest.

Orthodox1:
Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. ~Aldous Huxley
Are we living in an age where truth is now offensive? Of all the hate, cursing, and slander on these forums, a picture of real truth and genocide is offensive?
I will respectfully disagree. You may administrate as you please, and permit and deny speech that what you will.
God bless,
-Travis


I also don't see a "Start New Thread" option anymore, so it appears I've struck a nerve. That's quite alright seeing I have my own websites I administrate, but I was hoping people here were open to truth in dialogue. Yes, I suppose I am whining. Hope to see you all around.
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Okay, so I can start a new thread, so it's not a total conspiracy! :wink:
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

still looking for that persecution huh?
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Nope, searching for intelligent life, but starting to think Curiosity has better odds on Mars!
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

So, if you are really looking at long bloody history and choosing between atheism and Catholicism
If that were what I were basing my decision on, then it would be relevant. I'm not. Humans are as they are, and Christians are no better than the rest. Christian institutions have instigated a lot of bloody death. This is only more elevated because it claims to carry a message of love, and it certainly does not at all times. Individuals vary of course. I actually don't need to own Pol Pot, because I have nothing to do with him, his ideology, or his morals. He was a free agent, and a monster. Since I belong to no organization that condoned his behavior, I feel pretty removed morally from his atrocities.
There is nothing about atheism that demands any actions whatsoever. We only agree that there is no evidence for a god. We don't go to services that preach Inquisition, Crusades and witch burnings. MOST people don't go to such services today---but that is the history.
Now on to what I based my decision on. If I believed in a god, and I believed it was working through the Catholic church, then I would not be deciding between atheism and Catholicism. I would be a believer. I would not suddenly be an atheist because of the behavior of that church or some of its people. I would not suddenly be a believer because of wonderful things attributed to that church and it's people. The actions of people don't really define the issue for me. It is evidence, but not the deciding factor.
I find no evidence for that god. Not personally, not in nature, not in the behavior of the people or institutions. That makes me an atheist. If a Catholic nun found me beaten and broken on the street and took me in and made me well and comforted me, she would be a wonderful person. But that would not make me Catholic, because that does not address the only issue that matters to an atheist when making such decisions----is there a god. I know that if an atheist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu found me in the same condition, they would be just as likely to help (if not held back by prejudice). Because that is part of the human spectrum. Some from all groups may also pass me by. Another end of the human spectrum.
The thing that angers me is when an institution says it is representing a god of love, but when it gets some power it uses it to do a lot of harm. Perhaps the issue is power. We just shouldn't let them get too powerful, while at the same time protecting their rights to exist.
NC
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

When you make too much sense: jehovahs-witness.net silences you. See forum "What about History?" and notice that I have been deleted, or silenced. Here is the message I receieved, and my response:
riiiiiiiiiiiight you're not looking for persecution at all
you should leave the search for intelligent life to those not blinded by faith
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago


How are you going to throw " National Socialism's paganism" into the mix with Atheists? Weren't Facists/Nazis and Communits enemies? Didn't the Catholics lend support toe the National Socialists? Quit reaching.
{sigh}. There is a long history of National Socialist antagonism toward the Catholics, beginning with the assault on Catholic schools and ending with guys like Max Kolbe getting killed. I grabbed pagans because they tend to get pretty good treatment here vis-a-vis the idea of Catholic violence in a way similar to the atheists.
None of the Atheist you have met are supporting the ideas of a Central State Communism.
None of the Catholics you have met support burning heretics at the stake, but that doesn't seem to cut us much of a break, does it?
If you include Pol Pot who was just was anti-science as he was anti-religion, then I can include any religious group that has ever appeared.
Not so much, and you know it. The Khmer Rouge were against religion -- atheists. Catholics are not against science. Did you say something about reaching?

NC, perhaps I have misundrstood you. You did say some, " have simply come to a different conclusion than you have when looking at your churche's long and bloody history." That position would seem to suggest that the crude "body count" exercise has some bearing on the matter. Now, you say it doesn't matter. So, help a brother out: does it matter or not?
As for whether atheists need to "own" Stalin or the Gang of Four, it seems quite the dodge to claim no organizational affiliation. These guys were atheists, living an authentic atheist life in accord with good atheist principles. It is those principles you endorse, so how to you get to skip out?
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Hades, would you PLEASE stop feeding Ortho persecution complex? Would you buy an alcoholic a drink, a drug addict heroin, and geek a computer, Sol another wife? I fully support his right to seek out his next fix, I just don't want to provide it. Think about THAT you codependent enabler.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago


When you make too much sense: jehovahs-witness.net silences you.
If thats the case, you'll be here a long time.,,yacking
JWN has a LOT of tolerance for god pushers. I respect the owner and the moderators for their inclusion of all faiths and non faiths...maybe you could show some respect too.
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

NC, perhaps I have misundrstood you. You did say some, "have simply come to a different conclusion than you have when looking at your churche's long and bloody history." That position would seem to suggest that the crude "body count" exercise has some bearing on the matter. Now, you say it doesn't matter. So, help a brother out: does it matter or not?
For believers choosing a church, body count can be reconciled or not. Different conclusions. For those looking for fruitage, they may consider this. Or they may focus on other things. It does matter to some---believers----but not me. I'm not a believer. Now if someone is looking evidence for god, and they look at those who claim to be directed by god doing atrocious things, that may be a piece of a bigger puzzle that helps them reach their conclusion. They could conclude that there is no evidence that a loving god is a force in their lives, and that along with other evidence would lead one to conclude that the answer is there simply is no loving god.
Atheism has no principles. We have to find those on our own. I don't own Stalin either. His principles differed greatly from mine, and we did not belong to the same groups. Atheism is not an organization or a way of life. It is merely descriptive of a person's view of gods. Plenty of atheists are assholes---big deal. They haven't broken any atheist rules, because there are no rules.
Now when a pope stands up, as a leader of an organization, and says he is speaking for a god, and then endorses torture and encourages his followers to partake in persecution, well then the church DOES own what happens next. They have a code of conduct, and if they let the monsters hold the sceptor, then they are complicate.
I could belong to an atheist organization with screwed up principles, and then I'd feel more connected to what happened by the members. If they taught torture and persecution, and I supported that organization, then I would be tainted by that. But that is an organization, not simply the belief that there is no god.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 4 years ago

Weren't Facists/Nazis and Communits enemies? Didn't the Catholics lend support toe the National Socialists?
History shows that to be a false comparison. Hitler treated both the Kremlin and the Vatican with the same duplicity he used against everyone else (except, perhaps, Mussolini and Tojo). Saying that the Soviets were blameless while the Vatican was culpable is shameless double-talk.
Stalin assisted Hitler with the invasion of Poland. Germany took over the western part, the Soviets took the east. Stalin and Hitler remained military allies until Hitler unleashed Operation Barbarossa, his largest attack of the war, against his former supporter. Though no doubt suspicious of each other, Germany and the USSR were not enemies until the German invasion.
The Reichskonkordat Pius XI agreed to with Germany in 1933 was one of twenty-one such agreements promoting religious liberty. It was soon clear that Hitler had no intention of honoring it. Pius XI effectively rescinded the concordat in 1937 by issuing Mit Brenneger Sorge:
... We shall continue without failing, to stand before the rulers of your people as the defender of violated rights, and in obedience to Our Conscience and Our pastoral mission, whether We be successful or not, to oppose the policy which seeks, by open or secret means, to strangle rights guaranteed by a treaty ...
... Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds ...
Then in September 1938 Pius XI said:
No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites.
This was said by a religious leader, who commanded no army and no navy. About two weeks later, the leader of a world-wide empire defended by a strong army, navy and air corps agreed to give Hitler the Sudetenland, territory belonging to a country with no role in negotiating that concession.
So, who really played the dupe for herr Shiklgruber?
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"How are you going to throw "National Socialism's paganism" into the mix with Atheists? Weren't Facists/Nazis and Communits enemies? Didn't the Catholics lend support toe the National Socialists? Quit reaching."

How about quit ignoring actions of how the Church saved hundreds of thousands of lives during WWII?
I will repeat what I said earlier to the same rhetoric that comes up from people that bring up this same tired argument.
Pope Pius XII saved 800,000 Jewish lives, hiding Jews in monasteries, convents, and inside the Vatican itself; that he got to the Jews money for travel; that he issued fake baptismal certificates so they could pass as Christian; that he was praised by Jews at the end of the war (by everyone from Golda Meir to the Communist Albert Einstein) as a "righteous gentile"; that his was called by the New York Times the only voice among the silence on the topic of the Jewish persecutions; that the Chief Rabbi of Rome was so impressed by this Pope's holiness and heroism toward his fellow Hebrewsthat he took his name when he converted to Catholicism -- these things have been written about by people much more talented than I. Remember that ignored in the singular focus on the tragedy of the Jewish "holocaust" is the destruction of Christians that took place simultaneously: not only were Catholics also murdered by Nazis (3,000,000 in Poland alone!), but, at the same time, 15 million Christians were being murdered by our ally, "Uncle Joe" Stalin, much-beloved by FDR, American liberals, and American media. Where are the outrage, the memorials in every major American city, the Hollywood movies, the PBS specials, the "Christian 'holocaust' education programs" in public schools, the slogans, the defense leagues, the apologies for them? Where's even a mention of it in the typical American High School textbook? Why "the silence"? And why the double standard?

And as you read all this, for the love of all that is Holy, realize that Pope Pius XII was in between a rock and a hard place. He was in Vatican City, surrounded by Rome, in the middle of Mussolini's fascist Italy. On one side of him he had Communism, which was slaughtering Christians in astronomical numbers, a movement led predominantly by Jews, and on whose side the Allies entered the war. On the other side of him, he had pagan racist Nazism that was, in part, a reaction against Communism, but which was just as anti-Christian. He was against both of these evil idealogies (see his Encyclical Summa Pontificatus below) but was hardly in a position to do much about either in a hugely public way without increasing the slaughter of both Jews and Christians. The great and holy Pius XII did what he humanly could, as publicly as possible, and most powerfully and effectively behind the scenes. The world knew this during and after the war; it has forgotten since the ascendancy of cultural Marxism that has changed our culture to one that is thoroughly anti-Christian -- most especially anti-Catholic.

So Diest, what you have Pius XII do? "Send in his armies??" His actions, actions, spoke louder than words. He was lauded by the Jewish community for actions, not empty words.
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"It's a dirty, low thing to do for the Catholic Church to continue its subversive activity in every way possible and now even to extend its propaganda to Protestant children evacuated from the regions threatened by air raids. Next to the Jews these politico-divines are about the most loathsome riffraff that we are still sheltering in the Reich. The time will come after the war for an over-all solution of this problem." Joseph Goebbels's diary, 26 March 1942 (Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, p. 146)"

Apparently, people have bought into modern "Goebbel's" special brand of propaganda, history revisionism.....

A sample of the Jewish testimonies:
"We share in the grief of humanity [at the death of Pius XII].... When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."
~ Golda Meir
"No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII."
~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America
"In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See...was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews.... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."
~ Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania
"The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."
~ Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel
"I told [Pope Pius XII] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.... We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church."
~ Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel's first foreign minister and second prime minister)
July 25, 2005

So now that you have been shown by the Jews themselves what they thought of Pius XII and his actions, let's move on.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

"Hades, would you PLEASE stop feeding Ortho persecution complex? Would you buy an alcoholic a drink, a drug addict heroin, and geek a computer, Sol another wife? I fully support his right to seek out his next fix, I just don't want to provide it. Think about THAT you codependent enabler. "

lol too true. question though...is this alcoholic a happy drunk? a horny drunk? and if a horny drunk...is she hot?
i have to ask these qestions before i can logically give my answer :wink:
 
Orthodox1
Orthodox1 4 years ago

Isidore,
You speak truth to deaf ears. I use to hate the Catholic Church when I was an atheist. Then, as a Baptist, I hated the Catholic Church because I learned a few things from other Protestants to support my own bigotry.
Faith is a grace, a gift by God. Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do to convince people on here to look past what they think they know, or what they prefer to know, to seek truth always and everywhere, no matter where it leads.
If all were open to truth, in its wholeness, instead of preferring their half-truths that they learned or were given, all would be Catholic.
Keep up the great, factual, truthful, work, Isidore.

...wait for it... wait for it... (rather be in hades is going to say something about me wanting to be persecuted, just wait) :wink: God love him.
 
Twitch
Twitch 4 years ago

eh, whatever
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

Hello Orthodox1:
I have not been following the thread, so I don't know what has been said about Catholicism prior to this. There is a group who call
theirself "AnointedJW" who posted an article about what faith is. They defined it much the way you do:
 Faith is a grace, a gift by God. . . . to seek truth always and everywhere, no matter where it leads.
I had been watching Oprah Winfrey's "Super Soul Sunday," which presents a variety of spiritual perspectives, and this morning they had an Episcopalian
minister who expressed views of faith very much like the AnointedJW article and something like you said above as well. In my response to their article for the day, I said: He said spirituality and belief in God is not dependent on denomination but God within the person. He even quoted Jesus saying, "the Kingdom of God is within you." When asked, he even said he did not believe people need to attend church on Sunday. He denounced any idea of people telling others what they should believe--that people are responsible for  their own faith and beliefs. I was impressed at how much his perspective of God and Christ agrees with mine--and yours [AnointedJWs] as being rather outside of "religion."
Another former Catholic exJW on the forum, who first tried Baptists and other evangelicals after leaving the WT, then returned to Catholicism, then married and Episcopalian and ventured in that direction, is now somewhat agnostic/searching. He responded to my post and said something like what you said above about Catholicism. My response was:
I get turned off religiously by Catholicism when I see the pomp and elaborate costumes and ritualism displayed, as well as the adoration of the Pope when he visits. It was similar when in my visit to Israel we were taken through a number of Catholic church shrines (which I DO credit the Church for preserving these historic places for us to now visit) and seeing priests walking in flowing garb and swinging a lamp with burning incense, etc. That kind of ritualistic ceremony means nothing to me. (Although, I admit that kind of thing was characteristic of Judahism and the temple before Christianity. Not so much with Gentile Christians.)
I think you're right that a lot of individual members of these religions are more progressively liberal. I am just not drawn to the ceremonial "traditions," or things like belief that confession to a priest, baptizing infants, "last rites," etc. holds significance for personal faith. It's fine if that is what makes a person feel spiritual and connect with God; it just isn't my thing. I get more from Nature in a walk in the wild and whispering my sentiments to God privately.
I do credit the Catholic movement greatly with preserving the canon we call the Bible, much art and a rich history. I don't agree with their historical concept of Christianity in the first and second centuries. A lot is being revealed about that in our last century by both Bible and secular historians and archeologists.
Having said that, my favorite bible scholar and historian was Fr. Bargil Pixner, (RIP April 2, 2002) from Tyrol in Europe. He was a prior of the Benedictine community of the Dormition Abbey in Jerusalem. He introduced his theology to both Catholics and Protestants. He was an accomplished archaeologist and biblical topographer who was responsible for uncovering parts of the Essene Quarter on Mt. Zion, where it is believed Jesus held his "last supper." His books are my favorites. Don't know if they are still published. His contributions to Biblical research are indispensible.
I also appreciate much of the charitable perspectives of Catholicism, which I think are superior to many other denominations.
Catholicism has advanced, imo, for not excommunicating people, much less shunning them, if they don't agree with all the teachings of the Church. That allows people more spiritual freedom than exists in denominations like Jehovah's Witnesses, and is much more progressive in that way.
So that's my view of orthodox religion, fwiw.
~Binadub
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Atheism's long and bloody history is longer and bloodier. The Cultural Revolution, the genocide in the Vendee, the starvation of the Ukranians, etc., etc., etc. Throw in National Socialism's paganism, and the score gets pretty lopsided. I've gotta own Bloody Mary, you gotta own Pol Pot. Fair's fair.
Agreed. Fair IS fair.
So, show me the long and bloody history of atheism where people were kill because they wouldn't become atheists or in the name of atheism. Just because some one IS an atheist AND a horrible person doesn't count. Vanilla might be their favorite ice cream, but unless they are killing in the name of it, much like atheism, no one except Christian and Catholic apologist gives a shit. And it doesn't count.
So, tally that up, then tally up the people killed in the name of religion or because they wouldn't convert and THEN let's see which side is bloodier.
As for whether atheists need to "own" Stalin or the Gang of Four, it seems quite the dodge to claim no organizational affiliation. These guys were atheists, living an authentic atheist life in accord with good atheist principles. It is those principles you endorse, so how to you get to skip out?
It's not skipping out because, unlike Jesus/Catholics, they aren't killing in the name of atheism.
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

EP:
So, show me the long and bloody history of atheism where people were kill because they wouldn't become atheists or in the name of atheism.
It has been my impression, admitted possibly subject to propaganda, that U.S. Soviet Russia and China in the past have been guilty that kind of adversity to people practicing faith in their political arenas.
~Binadub
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

It has been my impression, admitted possibly subject to propaganda, that U.S. Soviet Russia and China in the past have been guilty that kind of adversity to people practicing faith in their political arenas.
Religion was considered to be competition for allegiance to the state and the leaders. It had nothing to do with atheism.
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

'member what I said before, EP? Q to tha E to tha fuckin' D, bizzach!
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

EP:
Is it your view that faith exists outside of religion?
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

'member what I said before, EP? Q to tha E to tha fuckin' D, bizzach!
I clearly do. You couldn't provide coherent, reasoned responses to anything I wrote so you resorted to amusing attempts at insults, the last refuge of the incompetent.
Thanks for bringing it up, that was rather adorable when you tried to puff out your intenet tough guy chest and be all big and bad. It made me chuckle.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Is it your view that faith exists outside of religion?
Faith in what?
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

You speak truth to deaf ears.
deaf ears?
has it ever occurred to you that your "truth" doesn't work for everyone?
has it ever occurred you that your "truth" might not even be true?
would you like to know the truth about your truth?
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Ep, you flatter yourself. So ewwy. If you wanted a real conversation, you could have one. You prefer your pointless jibberjabberslobberhaterspeach. And good for you -- it suits you perfectly.
You with all your, "you may go now," talk. Silly boy. "Stalin's genocide had nuthin' to do with atheism, I tells ya! Nuttin'!"
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

EP:
"Faith" in discussion with "atheism" generally refers to faith in God or deity.
Presumably as opposed to mere faith that the sun will appear to rise tomorrow morning over the eastern horizon, etc. :smile:
Not an argument, but curious, so let me rephrase the question:
Is it your view that faith in God or a supreme intelligent creator exists outside of religion?
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Binadub, you'd be better off having this conversation with your dog. About the same ability to engage the conversation, but the dog will at least listen to what you have to say.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Ep, you flatter yourself. So ewwy. If you wanted a real conversation, you could have one. You prefer your pointless jibberjabberslobberhaterspeach. And good for you -- it suits you perfectly.
You're just the cutest thing.
 "Stalin's genocide had nuthin' to do with atheism, I tells ya! Nuttin'!"
Now you're getting it. Glad you finally learned something. Happy to be of service.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Is it your view that faith in God or a supreme intelligent creator exists outside of religion?
I am sure some people that are not part of an organized religion have faith in such things.
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Binadub, you'd be better off having this conversation with your dog. About the same ability to engage the conversation, but the dog will at least listen to what you have to say.
Tsk tsk. Didn't you learn not to interrupt as a child?
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

EP:

Is it your view that faith in God or a supreme intelligent creator exists outside of religion?
I am sure some people that are not part of an organized religion have faith in such things.
So is it your view that only organized religion was banned in the countries that have been identified as atheist?
(Which might be the case, I don't know.)
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

EP again (fwiw):
I don't know if you place value on definitions in Wikipedia, but this from them on the term "State Atheism" (references omitted):

State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen. State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practiced during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Since then, such a policy was repeated only in Revolutionary Mexico and some communist states. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism, in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism, stay away from churches and even vandalize them; this attitude was especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929-1939. The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia.
(Underline mine).
So I'm not sure why you say it had nothing to do with atheism.
~Binadub
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

So is it your view that only organized religion was banned in the countries that have been identified as atheist?
No.
So I'm not sure why you say it had nothing to do with atheism.
Read my above posts if you would like to know.
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

Okay--don't have time like some here for this forum, so I guess I'll go with the secular evidence that indicates you're mistaken.
According to Wikipedia, Russia did demand atheism, meaning the persecution did have to do with "atheism."
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 4 years ago

I haven't read the entire thread here. After many years on the site, this conversation has been had many times.

I don't know if you place value on definitions in Wikipedia, but this from them on the term "State Atheism" (references omitted):
State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen. State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practiced during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Since then, such a policy was repeated only in Revolutionary Mexico and some communist states. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism, in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism, stay away from churches and even vandalize them; this attitude was especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929-1939. The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia.
(Underline mine).
So I'm not sure why you say it had nothing to do with atheism.

~Binadub

Because it had nothing to do with atheism. There is one simple reason that the governments mentioned demanded atheism. They also abolished labor unions. People gathering together for any reason is a source of strength, pure and simple.
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

Berengaria:
Because it had nothing to do with atheism. There is one simple reason that the governments mentioned demanded atheism. They also abolished labor unions. People gathering together for any reason is a source of strength, pure and simple.
That doesn't seem to jive with the Wikipedia article clearly stating that Russia "... required individuals to profess atheism...".
Understand, I have no personal belief investment in whether Russia persecuted religion or not, but to say it had nothing to do with atheism when people were required to profess atheism seems like it did as a matter of historical fact have something to do with atheism, pure and simple.
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 4 years ago

And what reason did they have for abolishing labor unions?
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Okay--don't have time like some here for this forum, so I guess I'll go with the secular evidence that indicates you're mistaken.
By all means. It's your brain to use or not, as you see fit.
I will give you a hint that you are not grasping that claiming atheism of the sort I practice is simply because I find no valid reason to beleive in God. The kind of state atheism you are referring to is to quash all competition to the state, to make people dependent on it, to make it their mother and manipulate and control them. It has nothing to do with "We don't beleive in God and if you do, we will kill you because we really hate Jesus."
Atheism is a tool, in that sense, just like Jesus was on the flip side of the enslaving a murdering people. Atheism as a personal choice is not that at all.
 
Berengaria
Berengaria 4 years ago

Go Flash!
 
Sulla
Sulla 4 years ago

Told, ya, binadub, though it gives me no joy in saying so.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

if all catholics/christians AREN'T the same, how is it that all atheists/pagans ARE the same?
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

Hmm, obviously Berengaria thinks strictly in terms of winning debate. To your question:

And what reason did they have for abolishing labor unions?
Presumably they were anti-union.
EP (or is it "Flash") :smile:)):

I will give you a hint that you are not grasping that claiming atheism of the sort I practice is simply because I find no valid reason to beleive in God. The kind of state atheism you are referring to is to quash all competition to the state, to make people dependent on it, to make it their mother and manipulate and control them. It has nothing to do with "We don't beleive in God and if you do, we will kill you because we really hate Jesus."
Atheism is a tool, in that sense, just like Jesus was on the flip side of the enslaving a murdering people. Atheism as a personal choice is not that at all.
Don't get me wrong--I'm not arguing against atheism. As an aside, I do think not everyone who professes atheism on this forum is in tune with the way most mainstream (never-been-dubs) atheist people view it. There is atheist as an adjective or adverb, and then there is atheist as a noun as professed here (as in "I am an atheist" (noun) as an expression of specific belief rather than the mere absense of belief. But I digress . . .
To address your comments:
This is not about what kind of atheism you personally believe in--nothing to do with that whatsoever.
For the point of discussion between you and me, it's been strictly about whether the USSR of Russia at one time killed people for having faith rather than professing atheism. You said it had nothing to do with atheism; I suggest you are wrong, irregardless of your personal beliefs or mine. When people are required to specifically profess atheism, that is about atheism. Now if the USSR mandate had been specifically to reject Christianity (as you imply it was about), that would be different. That you could say is not confined to being about atheism. But when the mandate is to profess atheism, that is about atheism, which I presume was not in fact limited to Christianity and Jesus, but was about rejecting faith in any power higher than the State of Russia at the time.
I would agree with you that that is not what atheism is about generally speaking, when it is indeed a personal choice as it is with you. I have absolutely no problem with people choosing atheism as an informed choice. But when Russia demanded profession of atheism, it was not a personal choice, and in that arena, it was about atheism. It wasn't "deny Jesus or I will kill you," it was "profess atheism or I will kill you." Big difference.
 
binadub
binadub 4 years ago

RBIH:

if all catholics/christians AREN'T the same, how is it that all atheists/pagans ARE the same?
They're not.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 4 years ago

Government authorities can use atheism or religion to control the masses. Either way, it's a terrible thing. I've always felt rather bad for Jesus because so many people claim he said this or that and then blame him for their evil schemes. I'm sure a lot of what goes on in his name would make him cringe.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Binadub, it's Lord Flashhard, actually.
This is not about what kind of atheism you personally believe in--nothing to do with that whatsoever.
I was pointing out the distinction between atheism as a tool and a personal belief in atheism.
I suggest you are wrong, irregardless of your personal beliefs or mine. When people are required to specifically profess atheism, that is about atheism.
Irregardless isn't a word :smile:
Moving on, it's NOT about atheism. Not allowing people to worship their god of choice isn't at ALL about saying "I don't believe in God", it's the state saying "You are not allow churches or to worship, your allegiance is to the state and the state alone".
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

if all catholics/christians AREN'T the same, how is it that all atheists/pagans ARE the same?


Rbih, you can be supporting an agenda even if you are unaware of it. The Church doesn’t define itself in opposition to anyone. A big number of atheists define themselves as opposed to the Church. They may go about it in different ways, but their goal is the same, to bring down religion, and the Catholic Church in particular.
It is good to ask oneself, why did the WT always had this fixation with the Catholic Church? See where it leads you.
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

The Church doesn’t define itself in opposition to anyone.
Ah, good to know they are in support of abortion, birth control, murder, kidnapping, etc. I mean, people do those things and they are therefore in support of those things.
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

EP, sorry the message was intended for somebody with a brain.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

Rbih, you can be supporting an agenda even if you are unaware of it. The Church doesn’t define itself in opposition to anyone. A big number of atheists define themselves as opposed to the Church. They may go about it in different ways, but their goal is the same, to bring down religion, and the Catholic Church in particular.
i want you to reread that statement and think of the total hypocrisy of what you just wrote
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus 4 years ago 306 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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tootired2care
tootired2care 4 years ago

Very good video, of the Catholic church trying to defend itself.



 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"has it ever occurred to you that your "truth" doesn't work for everyone?"

Ah, the classic Relativsim response.
Relativism, of course, is self-refuting. I'm reminded of the statement in the book Situation Ethics where the author says that we should avoid absolutes like the plague. Which of course he holds as absolutely true. Relativists tell us that we should be relative all the time, and only a position that teaches that truth is relative is a correct position. They are telling us with a straight face that ‘all truth is relative' which is really saying ‘it is absolutely true that all truth is relative.' Of course, what they mean is that all of the other person's truth is relative, but their own position should be held by all people everywhere. They hold truth as relative, except for their own values about truth, which cannot be challenged. If we say to them that we believe the opposite of what they believe, they respond with a combination of indignation and disbelief.

In reality, all truth, if it is true, is absolute, and true for all people everywhere. If you challenge this, I ask you this: Is the opposite of your position false, or is it true also?
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

lol you REALLY don't want me to answer that question...
 
Isidore
Isidore 4 years ago

"lol you REALLY don't want me to answer that question..."

Humor this poor stooge, as you called me, and allow me your wisdom and insight.
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

well let's start with your first assumption that i'm in line with whatever the relativist is.
i'm not.if there's any similarities, consider it coincidence.
my position is this, there are obvious absolute truths and realities. 2+2=4. that is truth. radioactive decay, etc.
the universe has certain truths and operates with those laws.
as for religion and philosophy, you can believe whatever the hell you want to, it doesn't make it true. if it's true to you and you aren't pushing it on me, we're good. if your beliefs are true to you and we're not making public policy based on it, then we're good and as long as you aren't looking down on others on the assumption that your beliefs are somehow more true than others, we're good.
unfortunately that is very much not the case. you happen to think that your truths are somehow better than others, at the very least agnostics.
so let me break it down for you.
it's not.
in fact, your "truths" have no more credibility than santa claus and the easter bunny. you believe a man literally walked on water yes? where is your proof? you believe that this man healed the blind with spit and muc correct? you believe this man raised others from the dead, the literal dead am i right?
these events are not possible. it never happened. plain and simple.
a woman never turned into salt. the red sea never parted for a bunch of refugees. we can't even find evidence that these refugees wandered about the wilderness for 40 years. a man was not swallowed by a fish/whale/sea creature and spit out alive 3 days later so he could continue his journey. there was no family that survived in a boat that literally could NOT have been constructed out of wood due to the size and demands placed upon that boat. nor did that family get two of every creature and put them on the boat.
a donkey, did NOT start talking to it's master.
i could go on and on and on, but that would take forever and a day. the point is, the bible has no more credibility than aesop's fables and if you chose to believe it, fine. if it makes you feel better, cool.
what's NOT cool is when you try to push your belief in that book which has ZERO credibility and very little real truth in it, as an absolute truth and then force others into believing these things while trying to shape public policy based on these myths/fables.
so to be clear, you may believe anything you want, that doesn't make it real or true in any way, shape or form. the bible, both old and new testament, or hebrew/greek, however you want to call it...is a collection of myths. nothing more, nothing less. if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy that's fantastic, but all that warmth and fuzziness doesn't make it real. not even close
 
apostatethunder
apostatethunder 4 years ago

Rbih, what is moral? On what should we base our policies? If you lived in a community that believed scamming you was ok, would it make them right the fact that they were the majority? What is it that gives moral authority?
 
rather be in hades
rather be in hades 4 years ago

you should base it on reality and not on mythology
 

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Topic Summary
my italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.



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