Jehovah's-Witness . com forum discussions

Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
/  





 

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Your so cute EP. Are you Sam as in actor Sean Astin?
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Zen is the way to an overarching elightenment that marries the divine with the human. Voila! Zen is superior and cover Jesus like blanket!

No, I think it more realistic that Zen tops Christ with some thorns.
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 4 years ago

@Mebaqqer, ... awesome logic as always thanks.
 
poopsiecakes
poopsiecakes 4 years ago

I fear you have misread my words the past few months.
Sab, you're still picking and choosing and contorting things to attribute coincidence and human ambition to a being with a higher purpose because that's what you WANT to believe. All you need to do is acknowledge that and there's no stopping you, baby!
...but let's hug it out cuz I think you're a sweetie
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

Zen DOES cover christ with the thorns. He couldn't have had hiw crown without them. As I predicted, Zen is above the Christ.
And no. I am not an actor. I am awesome.
 
144001
144001 4 years ago

God was created by man, in man's image, and the bible is proof of that.
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

WHO ARE YOU?

caterpillar.jpg alice hooka
 
EntirelyPossible
EntirelyPossible 4 years ago

I AM THAT I AM.
 
oompa
oompa 4 years ago

heck no...it would be stupid to inspire something to be written on crappy paper...let supersticious copy it over and over....and preserve no original copies???...and why inspire???...hell he supposedly wrote some of it himself on clay tablets which would have made more sense as far as preserving it...so why not make it obvious like inside on the wall of the pyramids....or on the face of solid stone mountian...i mean how stupid...ANYBODY can claim to have been inspired by god...and oh yeah...that is another one of those INVISIBLE things you just gotta trust in....barf........oompa
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

Sorry the ridiculer's spot is taken.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Mebaqqer - Thank you, very interesting post.
Edited to add - I also learned Sui generis and veridical.
 
Knowsnothing
Knowsnothing 4 years ago

I'm of the same opinions Canteave, ...now if only that little niggle of prophecy would go away too I'd be a lot happier about it. -Witness My Fury
Let's start with the prophesy of Cyrus. Isaiah 44:24,27,28; 45:1-4.
If you guys wanna look at bible prophecy claims being fulfilled, take a look at the Reasoning with the Scriptures Book under 'Bible', and refute it for me. This is something upon which I have nagging doubts on, along with texts like Isaiah 40:22 and Leviticus 11:6 which argue that the bible is 'scientificallly accurate'.
I would quote directly, but I have the WT CD in Spanish.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


Let's start with the prophesy of Cyrus. Isaiah 44:24,27,28; 45:1-4
If you do some research the answer is very compelling. Use the search phrase "deutero Isaiah"
 
N.drew
N.drew 4 years ago

This sounds like evil wibble.

In spite of the lack of concrete evidence that any part of Isaiah ever existed without any other part as far back as the 200’s BC, the dogma of most scholarship today is that two or more individuals authored Isaiah . This perspective arose, most notably in the deistic[1] climate of 18th century Europe. J. C. Doederlein, one of the earliest to argue for a second author,[2] said explicitly that since Isaiah could not have forseen the fall of Jerusalem, the 70 year captivity, the return or Cyrus, Isaiah could not have written those chapters making such claims (e.g. chapters 40-66) . Since this time, others have advanced arguments in support of dual or even multiple authorship.

OMG it's too yes freekin complicated. I shall take my leave.
 
Knowsnothing
Knowsnothing 4 years ago

Well on wiki, the first argument is that Deutero-Isaiah couldn't have possibly been written by Isaiah himself because it contains events that happened after he existed! Besides the arguement of different writting styles, which could have another explanation, it is telling that the first objection is to prophecy.
Here is the full wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Knowsnothing I didn't suggest you should click on the first google search result and form an opinion, I suggested you should do some research. It could take weeks or months.
 
Knowsnothing
Knowsnothing 4 years ago

Well, you're right, this isn't an easy subject. I was just hoping for some miracle answer. I'm intellectually lazy at times.
 
transhuman68
transhuman68 4 years ago

Oh Lordy… if you read the published Dead Sea scrolls, you will see there is nothing unique about the Bible. The Dead Sea scrolls are like another New Testament, with a treasure map, plans for a temple bigger than the whole city of Jerusalem, rules and prophecies etc. The Dead Sea community believed that the Old Testament was full of prophecies that were being fulfilled in their time- just before the 1 st century: but it was a futile belief, and it continues to be futile belief even now.
 
Terry
Terry 4 years ago

You know what is interesting to me?

A number of years back I came on to this Discussion Group (in its old incarnation) and posted some Topics that asked people to examine
the historical facts and evidence about Bible transmission and provenance and--guess what? The MAJORITY of people on the list who responded
were upset by it.

And now--I'd say the majority has reversed!

People have moved on and are thinking for themselves and asking honest questions. They are doing the heavy lifting on pursuing facts where they lead
and making the hard choices.

I must say--I think this commendable.

Hip hip HOORAAAAAY.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

oooh..this looks interesting...coming back to read this thread later...thanks
 

«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/220742/dont-believe-bible-inspired-god-why-do-you-dont-you?page=7&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
/  





 

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 4 years ago

If it was inspired of God, it would be Crytsal Clear.
Thou shalt not
thou shalt
It would not be open to interpretation by man.
 
sabastious
sabastious 4 years ago


Sab, you're still picking and choosing and contorting things to attribute coincidence and human ambition to a being with a higher purpose because that's what you WANT to believe. All you need to do is acknowledge that and there's no stopping you, baby!
...but let's hug it out cuz I think you're a sweetie
I cannot escape my own bias I can only learn to avoid it.
-Sab
 
tec
tec 4 years ago

I think some is inspired and some is not. It wasn't written as one book, so there is no reason at all to lump it all together as one book.
Now as to what I think is inspired, even that is subject to translation, understanding, errors, etc.
Even so, the books and letters contained within are still witness accounts, myths, histories, laws, prophets, moral lessons, etc... all of which shed light onto what those who wrote it saw, e x perienced, and believed.

It's a shame that Jesus isn't recorded as speaking out on his viewpoint of homosexuality to set the record straight.
Well, we don't know everything He said, of course, so he could have. Or He could have said a lot just by being silent. I mean, if He had to speak out and correct every single false teaching, then he might not have had the time to speak just the actual Truth. Instead He taught us truth. Which we can choose to follow Him and His teachings, and set aside all else that others taught or will teach, especially those things that contradict what Christ taught. Or we can try and sift through what Christ taught and what others taught, and wonder what Christ thought on these other matters. When He probably didn't think anything about them because they weren't true.
Personally, I find it much simpler (and clearer) if I just focus on Him to know what is true. Because if you know what is true... then you'll also recognize what is false. But you gotta know truth first.
Peace,
Tammy
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

It gives me hope. I've not seen a better deal being offered to me.
I said this. This is what i meant. I have hope based on faith. Strong faith. Faith is a fruitage of the spirit. The evidence in my life. I have this because I believe in Christ who is God's means of saving us. God's eternal purpose, his divine plan of the ages. I first learnt of this plan from the Bible hence it is inspired.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Terry stated:

You know what is interesting to me?
A number of years back I came on to this Discussion Group (in its old incarnation) and posted some Topics that asked people to examine
the historical facts and evidence about Bible transmission and provenance and--guess what? The MAJORITY of people on the list who responded
were upset by it.
And now--I'd say the majority has reversed!
People have moved on and are thinking for themselves and asking honest questions. They are doing the heavy lifting on pursuing facts where they lead
and making the hard choices.
I must say--I think this commendable.
Hip hip HOORAAAAA Y
I say
 
144001
144001 4 years ago

I first learnt of this plan from the Bible hence it is inspired.
So, if the book says it's inspired by god, then it must be, right? The Watchtower loves this sort of reasoning . . .
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

I love this circular reasoning


 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

You spin me round round baby right round
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 4 years ago

intellectual honesty... its on the rise.... but still very rare
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

What a difference 30 years make. Back in 1980 when Ray Franz and Ed Dunlap we saw Witnesses leaving and joining other religious groups. Now armed with education xWitnesses are making broader choices. Humanism is on the rise.
 
Joey Jo-Jo
Joey Jo-Jo 4 years ago

The internet has changed a lot of things, even religion, atheism is increasingly becoming wide spread, but in most eurpean countries its still a small percentage of atheists.
My native country which is mostly roman catholic who don't know their bibles unlike protestant america, in my opinion have more faith, because the belife in god is stronger than the belief in the bible which is very faulty and technically makes it idol worshiping, its also their long history with catholicism and country mascot saint fatima (I have book which is the equivalent of CoC but about fatima, speaks about the setup and the kids that were murdered so this saint can continue to exist, english translated version doesn't exist), preaching in Portugal was a lot more hostile than in Melbourne, bucket of boiling water dropped on me from the 2nd floor, chased by dogs and people, bashed at school for being a jw, I remember thinking to myself that these idiots much rather worship a priest that says the same over and over again every week than to read the bible, I still do.
tec speaks of following HIM (god has a penis?) but how do you follow something you dont know? Eastern Orthodox likes to argue that the church came before the bible therefore the church over shadows the bible, but the apostles came before the churchs and Jesus came before the apostles, these letters that the apostles supposedly convey are all anonymous and they are the only thing we have, there are other letters that didn't make into what Constantine allowed the early church to finalise - bible, the NT is a mess and other letters that didn't make it into the bible makes it harder to understand, and while Ehrman puts the final nail in the coffin, the late Hitchens debators didn't even dare to discuss the bible with him it was always "We are not talking about the bible, I wan proof that God does not exist", and Dawkins killed creationism.
 
Fernando
Fernando 4 years ago

After a spiritual awakening the Bible has come alive for me and I am personally able to understand the awesome gospel message that runs like a thread through it and is antithetical to the "bad news" (religion). Far too much detail and correlation to be an accident.
The once inexplicable evil spirit I have experienced in the Watchtower ruling religious clergy class now makes sense and is well explained where Jesus had the same experience with the religious leaders of his day.
However I now question all the supremacist religious framework in which the Bible was presented to me by the Watchtower who have merely continued the RCC's corruption of the text with their spiritually blind physical interpretations and theology.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Fernando- Consider this, Everything said in the Gospels by Jesus and the Epistles by Paul about and against the Jews is wrong.
 
Crisis of Conscience
Crisis of Conscience 4 years ago

In page 2, Ucantnome said, Sometimes I find it odd that people who have reached out and become elders because they believed they were ones who could teach, for many years taught that God existed and how he should be served including disfellowshipping people who saw Christianity in a different way than they taught, after a short period of time ridicule the God they served.
I haven't read ahead yet so I'm not sure if someone commented on this already. But I have a simple answer for this.
In one word - education. I'll offer an example and hope you understand its relation to your comment above.
In America there is a rapper/producer by the name of Sean "Pdiddy" Combs. He has a clothing line.
Suppose for a moment you were really into buying his clothing. It's ALL you ever bought. One day you get confirmed news that all his clothing is made by little children in a sweat shop, which is something you absolutely detest. You decide from that moment on that you can no longer and will not any longer support his business in this regard.
Why would you do that? Again, education. You did something before because you weren't fully informed. But once you became aware of what was really happening, you changed your mind/belief.
Well those that were at one time elders or what have you, and who now as you say "ridicule" God, are informed. They have made an educated decision. It shouldn't be a surprise, just as it shouldn't be a surprise that you can change your own mind on things after being educated.
CoC

edited: I see others commented on it. LOL Oh well.
 
Crisis of Conscience
Crisis of Conscience 4 years ago

As far as the topic of the thread, I'm still somewhat in the stages of "waking" up.
I however no longer feel that the Bible is either inspired or the book of God.
When I sit and compare the stories in the Hebrew testament to fairytales and fables that I learned as a child, they are really not that different. If I believe one, then I might as well believe the other. If I don't believe one, well.................. You get the point.
Once the walls came down, it was hard to believe anything else in the Bible. I agree about it containing things that can benefit people in their lives, but that's as far as it goes. It's no longer any different than listening to Dr. Phil.
CoC
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 4 years ago

The ancient scribes of the bible were inspired by their belief in their god, which gave them motivation to tell stories
of their god to create a semblance of reverence and power. They knew of other civilizations that worshiped other god(s)
which also gave them motivation to create a connecting relationship with their own chosen god.
These stories created a emotional connection with these people very similar in the way that they do today.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

C of C

My surprise is over that elders are supposed to be able to teach. They believe they are informed more than the rest of the congregation.
As elders they are not new to the bible or what the bible teachs.
The then later discover that they no longer believe it. They feel they have been misled maybe.
However informed they then become they still cannot say for sure that the God they believed and loved for so long doesnt exist.
The God they loved hasn't changed he is always the same. All of the things they learnt about him are still the same. Unlike what you say here.
"Suppose for a moment you were really into buying his clothing. It's ALL you ever bought. One day you get confirmed news that all his clothing is made by little children in a sweat shop, which is something you absolutely detest."
The organization may change but God doesnt.
In being fooled, misled or becoming more informed and deciding to leave the congregation for whatever reason. My surprise is that having been wrong once they would without positive proof of the non existence of God now ridicule him as if they are wrong they will lose. Then they would have been wrong twice. I just tend to be more cautious.
Maybe ridicule was the wrong word. I couldn't think of a better one at the time.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cantleave
I think you are wrong if your illustration is saying that my post is circular reasoning. I agree it sounds like it.
"It gives me hope. I've not seen a better deal being offered to me.
I said this. This is what i meant. I have hope based on faith. Strong faith. Faith is a fruitage of the spirit. The evidence in my life. I have this because I believe in Christ who is God's means of saving us. God's eternal purpose, his divine plan of the ages. I first learnt of this plan from the Bible hence it is inspired."
However the faith is the evidence and great things are accomplished in faith.
Hebrews 11. 32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; [e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. (NIV)
I have seen things in my own life due to faith.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

Ucantnome...You may have seen things happen...but how can you be so sure they wouldn't have happened anyway? We can have faith that things will happen...that faith has a 50/50 chance doesn't it. What about when things don't happen? Is is because God isn't watching at that particular time? Is it because you didn't deserve it at that particular time...Or is it that we just make excuses when it doesn't work out...and give god credit when it does.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

still thinking
I wouldn't want my faith tested in a hungry lion's den. Would you? Sometimes are faith is tested and the circumstances are not pleasant. In the lions den when it works out there is not a doubt as to why.
John 20:21

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (NIV)
I could tell you what happened in my life but it would make no more difference than reading the accounts in the bible I cant give you them for scientific analysis.
When these things happened to the Apostle Paul do you think he wasn't praying why did God not stop them?
24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,
26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
27 I have laboured and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.
At the end of Paul's life he had fought the fine fight and was assured of his reward. His faith got him through and God knew what he needed. Pray for more faith.
 

«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/220742/dont-believe-bible-inspired-god-why-do-you-dont-you?page=8&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
/  





 

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

UCantnome:
"It gives me hope. I've not seen a better deal being offered to me...
That is all very well and good, you have been offered something, without proof, based on the ancient writings of goat herders, and you feel that no better has been offered to you.
I think that is very sad!
I look at human achievements and endeavour, that offers me real, tangible hope. The hope that we have the ability within ourselves, using methodologies, developed by the human mind, to resolve our problems.
Life now is so much better than when your goat herders were alive. We have technology that enables us to enjoy a far better quality of life for a much longer time than at any time in human history. We are learning about the way the universe operates. We are on the brink of learning the secrets of life itself, through understanding the genetic map.
What does faith offer? A promise without any foundation.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

But you and I may not have tomorrow.
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

but...youcantnome...
Many people don't have the type of faith you have...many people belong to completey different religions and yet they could say the same thing and have had similar experiences.
Many people have faith in 'themselves', and guess what...they get the same results.
If you ask yourself for more faith....I'm sure you will give it to yourself...it would be ridiculous not to...since YOU have control over what you give yourself.

And...why wouldn't you want your faith tested that way? How convincing it would be if you were saved...how many people could you convince that God is indeed real? What better way?
Personally...I have faith that I would be eaten by the lion...unless the lion came down with a severe case of indigestion or got struck by lightening...but I don't fancy my chances.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

still thinking
The original question was
I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of God- Why do you/ don't you?
My answer was because I have faith in the Christ ransom that gives me hope. The bible was the original point of discovery for this faith.
I dont have all the answers but I do have faith and that faith has got me through and demonstrated to me the power of God.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Ucantnome
But you and I may not have tomorrow.....
Why is that important? As individuals we are here for a short time. We may not have tomorrow, so we need to make the most of today. What we should want to leave is a legacy. This is what we are doing with science and technology and the increasing of knowledge.
I want my children to live in better world than I was brought up in, and they will want the same for their children. This isn't going to happen by a belief in myths, that divide and cause irrational hatred. It is going to happen by collaboration between people with a thirst for knowledge and desire to learn how to apply that knowledge for the good of others..
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Ucantnome - I have a question. Does your faith hold more validity than that of a Muslim or a Hindu?
 
still thinking
still thinking 4 years ago

I do not believe that the bible is the inspired word of God any more than any other holy book is Gods inspired word.
It was written by men...for men.
It was written by people who may or may not have believed in what they wrote...but it was put together by religions who want to control and manipulate people. They picked and chose what THEY wanted it to say...and left out what they didn't want it to say.
I had faith in the bible...I had faith...now I really think my faith was misplaced. I think I gave credit where it was NOT due.
The bible is a book...and that is all.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

Ucantnome, I have some plots of land for sale on the Moon, do you want to buy some ?
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Phizzy, Do I get real moon cheese if I buy one of your plots?
 
tec
tec 4 years ago


What does faith offer? A promise without any foundation.
Faith offers strength, hope, love, and peace. Sometimes knowledge, understanding, wisdom... different gifts of the spirit for different people. Faith also offeres life, with Christ as the foundation of that promise. Faith in Him. I understand that this last one won't mean anything to a non-believer. But the first are tangible now.
Peace,
Tammy
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

What about faith not under-pinned by Christ then Tammy? Is that invalid?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cantleave,
Does your faith hold more validity than that of a Muslim or a Hindu?
I dont really understand what you are asking me. Are you asking about salvation? Or my personal viewpoint of the validity of being a Muslim or Hindu? What do you mean by validity? That Christianity is more sound in argument than other religions?
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Study Judaism and then read Romans and ask yourself was this later discussion really from a learned Pharisee.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Ucantnome: If I speak to Muslim or a Hindu, they will use the same arguments regarding their faith that you do with yours. They believe they are guided by their gods and gain strength from them and they find their faith gives them purpose in life. My question is, I suppose, would you agree with them?
If not, why not?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

What does faith offer? A promise without any foundation.
this point that you made. I can understand that you feel this way. but many people don't. Billions dont
I know and know of people who are christian and teach in Universities. These are well educated people.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

If you are looking to a document like the New Testament which has serious flaws and contradictions to the Old Testament how much trust or faith should you put into it.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

I think what you are saying is that there is either validity in all gods or whatever happened to me when i needed help was not from God neither were the things written about in the bible.
Maybe your right Cantleave. Maybe your not.
But the question was why do I believe the Bible to be inspired and i answered that. I dont think you can prove beyond doubt that it isn't.
I always feel I have to be careful in commenting on other people's faith. So I decline to go further.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

Ucantnome seems to be taking the old easy way out instead of answering the questions that challenge.
"You can't pronve the Bible is not inspired " Oh gawd, here we go, let me explain, if you claim it is inspired , the onus of proof is on you, we , who doubt , cannot prove a negative.
You will not comment on others faith, why not ?
Either their faith is as valid as yours or it is not, either way, you must have reasons for believing thus.
I think you do not understand the nature of a debating forum such as this, you cannot come here, make assertions, and then when you are called on to back them up say , " I decline to go further".
If you do that we say "we decline to give any of your opinions respect" they do not deserve it.
Put up or shut up.
 
tec
tec 4 years ago


What about faith not under-pinned by Christ then Tammy? Is that invalid?
Not really my place to determine what is or is not valid for someone else. There are truths to be found running within most cultures and faiths.
Peace,
Tammy
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

Tammy  Peace to you too!
 

«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/220742/dont-believe-bible-inspired-god-why-do-you-dont-you?page=9&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
/  





 

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Phizzy
If you do that we say "we decline to give any of your opinions respect" they do not deserve it.
I really don't care Phizzy what you do or think.
A little while back there was an article in the Watchtower and due to certain words used it was taken to the police I understood.
I feel one needs to be careful when talking of other people's faith when they (me) have little knowledge of it due to the laws in this country. If Phizzy you feel differently ok
I also feel that the subject is not proveable however I believe the bible to be inspired.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

I think you should be careful about talking about any subject if you have little knowledge of it. other's faith or whatever.
You believe the Bible to be inspired you say, O.K then I ask WHY? Just having a belief with nothing to back it up is verging on the idiotic.
And, if you do not feel that the faith of other religions is as valid as yours, you must have reasons for that position, if you feel as I do, that their faith is just as valid as yours, then say so, what is the problem ?
 
transhuman68
transhuman68 4 years ago

The problem is that the Bible underpins a lot of our actions and beliefs, in the West. Whether you believe it is inspired or not will change the way you view the world, and the people in it, and your own life. IMO it is possible to know whether the Bible is the Word of God, or not- but it can be disappointing to realize there is nothing sacred, or holy about a book.
 
tec
tec 4 years ago

See, despite my contribution to this thread, I do not believe the bible is the Word of God. That role belongs to Christ. We have writings from people about the Word of God, though, as well as about God, and the history of His people. That they are not infallible does not make them invalid.
Peace,
Tammy
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

And, if you do not feel that the faith of other religions is as valid as yours, you must have reasons for that position, if you feel as I do, that their faith is just as valid as yours, then say so, what is the problem ?
I feel explaining the validity of someone else's faith or the reason's I may or may not view their faith as valid is something I do not feel comfortable doing.
Phizzy there are other things that do not permit me to comment further and although you or others may see it as a cop-out that is how it will have to be.
 
tec
tec 4 years ago


I feel explaining the validity of someone else's faith or the reason's I may or may not view their faith as valid is something I do not feel comfortable doing.
Of course you don't feel comfortable doing it.  It is between them and God (or them and their god). We are to keep an eye on ourselves, give witness to our faith.
The only time I can see to speak out is when someone is attacking the One whom I have placed my faith within, or attacking others who share my faith, or when someone uses their faith to do evil and cause harm.
Other than that, a Hindu might be more peaceful and 'brotherly' than a 'christian' and therefore, be more known BY Christ, than that self-professed christian. (insert any faith in there, even atheism... people can be known by their deeds, not always by what they profess to believe in.)
Our place is not to judge.
Peace,
Tammy
 
tec
tec 4 years ago


I feel explaining the validity of someone else's faith or the reason's I may or may not view their faith as valid is something I do not feel comfortable doing.
Of course you don't feel comfortable doing it.  It is between them and God (or them and their god). We are to keep an eye on ourselves, give witness to our faith.
The only time I can see to speak out is when someone is attacking the One whom I have placed my faith within, or attacking others who share my faith, or when someone uses their faith to do evil and cause harm.
Other than that, a Hindu might be more peaceful and 'brotherly' than a 'christian' and therefore, be more known BY Christ, than that self-professed christian. (insert any faith in there, even atheism... people can be known by their deeds, not always by what they profess to believe in.)
Our place is not to judge.
Peace,
Tammy
 
tec
tec 4 years ago

woops
 
dog is god
dog is god 4 years ago

I just got a copy of the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson cut out all the things ascribed to Jesus and put them together. What Jesus taught was a far cry from the first great hijacker the Apostle Paul. But then again, no proof that Jesus really said this. I think he did live as Josephus refers to him but why the Romans did not record his trial and execution I have no idea.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Phizzy there are other things that do not permit me to comment further and although you or others may see it as a cop-out that is how it will have to be.
I feel a need to clarify this statement.
When I posted this statement (Post 104)


"I said this. This is what i meant. I have hope based on faith. Strong faith. Faith is a fruitage of the spirit. The evidence in my life. I have this because I believe in Christ who is God's means of saving us. God's eternal purpose, his divine plan of the ages. I first learnt of this plan from the Bible hence it is inspired."
It was the early hours of the morning. I hadn't slept. What I posted churns over and over in my head and I had a need to post this explanation to my previous post.
For some years I had bad anxiety attacks. Often they started in the night. Very dark thoughts. I learnt to stop them. I could feel them coming. It was like waiting on the underground station and the breeze of the approaching train lets you know it comes. Then in was a fight to stop them. Or else I was going to be super cold, shaking and feeling suicidal.
Posting on this site for me is stressful and I know my limitations.


 
designs
designs 4 years ago

Ucant- Here we all get a chance to express ourselves in ways we never could in a Watchtower Study, its all good. Its rough and tumble at times and we could all be better in our etiquette but freedom is like that. Glad you are here, we are all learning everyday.
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

During times of anxiety some people will find solace in a religious faith. Others will seek professional help, still others will turn to drugs and alcohol.
Which of these is the best approach?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

I didnt sleep Wednesday night. It is probably better that I dont post on this site. Nothing to do with the people on it. Although I will probably find it difficult not too.
Designs.
Thank you. The meetings for me were very stressful. So was going to the bother's for dinner. If I went to someones house for dinner or some social activity I wouldn't sleep. The bookstudy was the worst. I finally gave up going.
Being on the school was hell.
Cantleave.
I've always found Rum helps
 
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

lol - Rum is good!!!
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 4 years ago

Ucantnome, I hope I have not hurt you or made you feel bad, that was not my intention at all, indeed ,as we are strangers ,my comments are not a personal attack on you.
I just get frustrated with some believers on here who insist that their "beliefs" are "true" when they have nothing to back them up, O.K believe what you like, is what I say, and carry on, but don't expect those of us of a rational bent to go along with what we see as nonsense.
But please don't leave this place, you will find sympathy, support and help here, so many of the good people on this site have gone through the same as you, or similar, and their experience and thoughts can be so helpful and uplifting, you will lose that if you leave.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Ucantnome, I hope I have not hurt you or made you feel bad, that was not my intention at all, indeed ,as we are strangers ,my comments are not a personal attack on you.
Thank you Phizzy.
No you nor anyone else on this site makes me feel bad and I know I can post things that probably read differently to how I mean them.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

Cantleave, Exodus 7 is an interesting account.
" 8 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,’ and it will become a snake.”
10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said." (NIV)
The God I serve has shown himself to be stronger than the another god mentioned in the Bible. I need not look any further. I can't prove this to you of course but it underpins my faith. Once Moses found the burning bush he didnt look for another. Not all Gods are the same as Pharoah found out. Man makes many gods, including himself.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

my personal view at the moment is kind of like this.
God gives you what you need to believe.
If you ask and keep asking he will give. The trouble with that is it might not be answered in the way you hoped.
No doubt I am wrong in my view. lol. and someone will tell me.
 
Miles3
Miles3 4 years ago

However informed they then become they still cannot say for sure that the God they believed and loved for so long doesnt exist.
Yes they can. 6 mass extinction events in the histoy of life on earth (not incluing the deluge, which we know didn't happen), billions of living beings killed, millions of species extinct, at one time up to 97% of oceanic species lost, beautiful living organisms not to be found ever again. There's no intrisic better value between an animal's life and another, us included. We hold the value of our fellow humans higher because we're of the same species (not saying it's wrong), but each species does the same, a wolf would value another wolf's life higher than that of a human for example.

The God I serve has shown himself to be stronger than the another god mentioned in the Bible. I need not look any further. I can't prove this to you of course but it underpins my faith. Once Moses found the burning bush he didnt look for another. Not all Gods are the same as Pharoah found out. Man makes many gods, including himself.
You're aware than the Israelites never were in Egypt, never had to leave it and there never was a Moses to lead those out of that empire? You're aware the people that later formed the country known as Juda come from a different origin than what the Bible says?
As for being "stronger", history has shown repeteadly that Juda's gods were weaker that those of neighbouring nations, Egypt included. Especially the YHWH one, since Juda's darkest times (military defeats, invasions, devastations...) were under the "faithfull" kings like Josias... You thus might want to reconsider your assertion...
 
transhuman68
transhuman68 4 years ago

This is an interesting review of a book by one of Israel’s famous archaeologists that helps sort fact from fiction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed


 

«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/220742/dont-believe-bible-inspired-god-why-do-you-dont-you?page=10&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
/  





 

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?
by cantleave 4 years ago 202 Replies latest 4 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
5
10
20
cantleave
cantleave 4 years ago

I think I have found the next book I want to buy!
The story of the Isrealites exodus migration has no historical or archeological evidence what-so-ever.
 
designs
designs 4 years ago

If Charlton Heston didn't part the Red Sea then who?
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 4 years ago

You thus might want to reconsider your assertion...
No.
I'm not very good at writing my posts and I've probably not been clear.
As for God being stronger. (Whatever he allowed his adversary to do to his chosen people) His prophecy of the seed was fulfilled and the fact that I'm a christian proves it. At least to me.
I've promised my wife I wont be posting on this site for a while.
 

«
 1
 2
 …
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9
 10
 11
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.
i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.
my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 5 months ago
Saintbertholdt
TALES OF FUTURES PAST, PART I: WHY IS THE YEAR 1934 SO IMPORTANT?
by Saintbertholdt 5 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/220742/dont-believe-bible-inspired-god-why-do-you-dont-you?page=11&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ help! family mbr reading my 3 yr old My Book of Bible Stories
/  





 

help! family mbr reading my 3 yr old My Book of Bible Stories
by limbogirl 10 years ago 37 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

My soon to be three year old son asked me yesterday if I was dying. I was shocked that he knew the word 'dying' and asked where he heard it. He proceeded to tell me that his Aunt (a jw) read him a story about Jesus Twiste (Christ) and Jesus was dying. I questioned him further about Jesus and dying and realized that my ex-SIL is reading to him from My Book of Bible Stories. There's not a lot I can do to stop him from being exposed to this stuff when he's visiting his dad's family -- at the same time I want him to understand that what he is told is not the truth and is merely an opinion or interpretation. This probably sounds a bit much for a three year old but he's a very smart little guy. I'm worried because this side of his family are fanatical jws -- they would probably (and maybe are) tell him that I'm wrong and will die at armaggedon. Any suggestions on how to deal with this without making my son feel uncomfortable? my ex husband isn't a jw but grew up going to the kh, etc and has no backbone when it comes to his family and this issue.
 
Celia
Celia 10 years ago

He is your son, talk to your SIL and tell her you forbid her to ever read that creepy book to your little guy. Or to tell him anything related to the JW religion. Gosh, he's only 3 ! Why put these depressing ideas in his little mind? Death, destruction and vengence by an angry God... I understand it's not easy to control what's going on when he's visiting his dad's family. If he was my kid, I would not let him go there unsupervised anymore until they can promise not to do it again.
 
whyizit
whyizit 10 years ago

Perhaps you could look over the book and find where it is in "error" and point that out to your son and show him why it is not true.
If this family member insists on teaching him that you are going to die at armageddon, etc.... you could ask him if he thinks that is a nice thing to tell some one about their Mommy?
Do you think God would approve of "so-and-so" telling that to a little boy about his Mommy? Did Jesus ever say things like that to children about their Mommies? Where is that in the Bible? Show him that it is not in the Bible and show him that God repeatedly tells us to be kind and to love one another. That is not a very kind and loving thing to say about someone's Mommy, now is it?
You are definitely going to have to show him a better way than what they have. He will want the one that has peace and joy, and security. He'll see that for what it is, as long as you stay on top of things.
 
Honesty
Honesty 10 years ago

Don't let her be with him alone.
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

thanks for the advice....unfortunately, my ex-husb and I share custody of our son 50/50 so I don't really have a lot of say-so about what goes on when he's with his dad. I emailed his dad today and told him I didn't want our son exposed to this crap but got no response. I am raising my son in a completely non-jw atmosphere. my parents are also very active jw's -- step-dad's an elder -- but i've made it clear to them that my son is not to visit the kh or look at their literature and they respect that. the other side of the family is different -- completely rabid about their beliefs. after fading from the jw's I find that I don't have any spiritual inclination and really no interest. I've never mentioned jesus to my son or god for that matter -- he brings this up to me. I try to tread lightly and not make too much of it but now I'm thinking that perhaps I should counter with a different belief system about god and christ. however, I have no idea what that would be....jw is the only religion I ever knew! argh. I knew this was going to be an issue but didn't think it would happen so soon!!
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

He's three years old. Three year-old's don't reason. They believe everything that mommy and daddy tell them. And, obviously, Auntie. Every time he expresses these worries, give him a big hug and tell him you will never die and you will always be there for him forever and ever and ever. That's not a lie. To a three year old, one year is forever and ever and ever.
Next, try and set up a reasonable dialogue with daddy. I know, I know, easier said than done with a JW. Theocratic warfare and all that. But give it a try, it will save you years of heartache. Besides, you don't want to set up your little boy as the spy and go-between. Don't quiz your boy on what's going on, confront daddy.
Finally, when your son reaches the age of reason teach him to reason things out for himself. This will be at about age six or so. You'll know because he'll start negotiating better terms for bedtime.
I'm convinced that the best inoculation against the cults is to teach our children to reason things out for themselves. No longer will they believe anything they read or hear on television. Here's some (dorky) resources geared for children.
http://www.criticalthinking.org/resources/elementary.shtml
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

OH! And a balance to the JW fear-mongering, try some videos from:
http://www.bigidea.com/
Guaranteed non-scary, with lots of good Christian concepts on how to treat each other. Maybe that way your boy won't be left in a vaccum as far as belief goes, and you show an alternative happy version.
 
carla
carla 10 years ago

Never leave your little guy alone with this woman. If you have to threaten her with a court order, do so. Aunts have no 'rights' anywhere that I know of. A good child psychologist should be able to back you up. Let your ex know that this could get long, ugly and costly if he can't find his balls.
Your childs emotional and spiritual well being is at stake.
 
Seeking Knowledge
Seeking Knowledge 10 years ago

Hi Limbogirl
I'm in the same boat with you, only my son's father is a rabid (now) JW and doesn't follow any rules laid down. I agree 100% with Jgnat's suggestions. All we can do with our boys is teach them to think. Do you have a church you can go to? Anything to give him another view rather than the JW way? Kids aren't dumb, they want to make mom & dad happy, but hopefully we can teach them to understand WHY rather than accept it as the only way. My ex gets the glossy eye'd look when I bring up issues - any issues - with him. Best to keep both your feet on the ground & teach your son to reason things out.
Good luck--I'm there with you!
SK
 
wanda
wanda 10 years ago

The best way to counter the My Book Of Bible Stories is with the Our Book Of Bible Stories, a collection of Bible stories that overturn the misteachings of the Watchtower Society.
In another string I'll post in a moment caledl OUR Book Of Bible Stories (Our not My) you will see posts for the book.
The Watchtower's book misprograms kids, the OUR book reprograms with the rest of the truth.
The Our Book Of Bible Stories is free so that it can help a lot of kids and adults who have been mistaught.
Now I'm going to make that post.
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

jgnat: thank you! you always seem to have wonderful insight and advice. I really appreciate your posts. I definitely don't put my son in the middle and I try to be very neutral and not show a lot of emotion around what he shares about dad and dad's family -- which is why this took me by surprise --we're sitting down playing with play-doh and all of a sudden he's asking me if I'm dying like jesus!! (the night before he was pretending his popsicle stick was a cigarette so he's not fully indoctrinated as a jw yet. smile) I'll have to think about how to speak with his dad about this...I've brought it up a few times -- we both agree that there is no way he will be raised a jw, however, my ex isn't opposed to his being exposed to the jw viewpoint. I think it's harmful...I don't even want him looking at that creepy "artwork" in the jw publications.
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

Hi SK: glad to know I'm not alone here. I think I'm going to look into finding some kind of church or group where my son can learn about these topics in a more gentle, normal manner. He's apparently been taught about God and that God made the earth, flowers, trees, etc and he quizzes me constantly on this topic. "does God make me? does he make you? does he make cars?" and on and on. I don't want to inflict my own indifference on him -- I wish I had been raised in a religion that allowed me to understand God and Jesus without all the violence and other rubbish. One thing I'm doing to counter jw life is to really embrace tradition and celebration with my son -- something I didn't have growing up.
 
wanda
wanda 10 years ago

I tried to post this in a new string by itself but it wouldn't post for some reason. So here it is (I hope):
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

Hi Wanda...still didn't post. I would love to check this out! thanks!
 
wanda
wanda 10 years ago

Please email me directly at wanda@yahoo.com. That way you will get a copy for sure.
 
MinisterAmos
MinisterAmos 10 years ago

Be careful that you don´t start using your kiddo as a pawn against the Dubz. What you should do, is to BANG on Auntie´s front door and explain to her in your best she'wolf voice that if she ever gets near your kiddo again with Dub material you will make sure she never sees him again.
Then apply for a restraining order on the basis that she is attempting to inculcate in him cultish ideas.
Even if it isn´t granted you´ll stink up the joint enough that they´ll get the message.
 
misspeaches
misspeaches 10 years ago

I completely understand your concern. We have a similar situation in our family. My sister has a 4 year old girl and our JW mum has been reading to her from the bible stories book and the new great teacher book. Personally I don't think she should be. I had a quick glance at the new Great Teacher book and there is two chapteres devoted to who your friends should be. Including how if your friends don't go to the meetings etc etc then they shouldn't be your friends. Crap like that. Also how true friends of Jehovah will be JWs.. (round about summation). Now how is this going to affect a little girl? Is she going to have to continue to be subjected to this stuff? Will she grow up thinking that there is something wrong with her parents & siblings, aunts & uncles because they 'turned away from Jehovah'? I just don't like it at all.
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

yikes! there's a new great teacher book? that will be next. I just checked my calendar and it turns out that my son is with me on memorial night...thank goodness or else I'm sure the ex would allow him to go with his grandparents.
 
bikerchic
bikerchic 10 years ago

limbogirl I agree jgnat gave excellent advise, she always does!
Finally, when your son reaches the age of reason teach him to reason things out for himself. This will be at about age six or so. You'll know because he'll start negotiating better terms for bedtime.
I'm convinced that the best inoculation against the cults is to teach our children to reason things out for themselves. No longer will they believe anything they read or hear on television. Here's some (dorky) resources geared for children.
The only other thing I will add to that is at a certain age probably pre-teen your son won't want to even be seen with most JW kids let alone be one, they are just so uncool. Just continue to reason with him and teach him how to reason and I'm sure in time things will work out just fine. LOL until you are no longer a goddess to him (hey it has to happen) which for boys happens anytime after 11 years old, humm then he's all Dad's so you've got a few years to teach him to reason.
Good luck that is such a cute age and they are so teachable when they are young!
 
clovis
clovis 10 years ago

In a nice , calm voice, inform your SIL that you will beat her ass to a stump if she dares to read that to your son. Also threaten her with legal action. She doesn't care about your son, she's f%#*!$g with you.
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/111095/help-family-mbr-reading-my-3-yr-old-my-book-bible-stories





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ help! family mbr reading my 3 yr old My Book of Bible Stories
/  





 

help! family mbr reading my 3 yr old My Book of Bible Stories
by limbogirl 10 years ago 37 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
wanda
wanda 10 years ago

THE FOUR COMPTONS AND MEDICAL TREATMENTS
Rickie and her brother Ernie Campton came home crying. “What’s to matter!?” Their parents asked.
“A girl who used to go to our school died.” Rickie said.
“Yeah,” said Ernie. “She thought it would please God. She told me once it was in the Bible to abstain from blood.”
Mr. Campton looked thoughtful. “I see. As you know your mom and I study the Bible a lot. In fact, I was studying this same subject last week because I know a man at work who believes the same thing.”
“What did you find out, Daddy?” Ernie asked.
“Well, let me look for those notes. Ah, here they are... 1 Samuel 14:32 through verse 35
says King Saul's whole army ate unbled meat without punishment from God because it was an emergency to save their lives.”
“What kind of emergency?” Asked Rickie, her tears having stopped.
“Well, all those men didn’t have any food. They would have died from starvation. They ate unbled livestock then built an altar of repentance to show respect for the law of Moses that was in effect at that time. God excused their breaking the law because it was done to save life.”
“Yeah,” said Ernie. “We must obey laws normally, but there is a place for everything especially when life is in danger.”
Mr. Campton smiled, “Good thinking, Son. You’re right we must normally obey the law. God puts governments and laws here to help people. But God is also reasonable and fair. He once inspired the king Solomon to write that there are places in time and space for doing things differently.”
Rickie’s face looked sad again. “So Angie,.... that was her name, shouldn’t have died? You’re saying God didn’t want that, right!”
“Yes. Plus there’s some other things Angie probably didn’t know about.”
“What?” Rickie and Ernie asked at the same time.
“Well, for example identical twins normally transfuse blood back and forth to each other via a shared placenta, and besides that mother’s milk includes white blood cells. God has caused these things to happen.”
Rickie’s face took on an angry, upset appearance. “This was so senseless and wrong! Angie should still be alive!”
“Yes, and some groups are like that on all medical situations, not just emergency blood transfusions, and they’re wrong about that too. For example, these notes I took say Christ said people need doctors. That’s at Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17, and Luke 5:31.”
“Dad,” Ernie said, “I believe I read somewhere Luke, who was one of the twelve disciples of Christ, was a doctor.”
“Right. I’ve got that in my notes too, son. Luke Colossians 4:14 says that. But you know, like I said, a few groups do preach against anyone ever using doctors for any medical conditions at all. Sometimes people, including babies, die from that kind of belief too.”
Now Rickie and Ernie’s mother spoke up. “I’ve got to tell you this, everybody. There’s a scripture that I always remember and try to live by. At Matthew 12:7 Christ says God wants ‘mercy not sacrifice.’ (Mt 12:7)
All the family looked thoughtful and their heads bowed in both sorrow and agreement.
“Dad, Mom...”
“What, Rickie?”
“I’m going to write those scriptures and what you said down then send it to Angie’s parents. They have a right to believe as they do but I also have a right to give them the real truth. Maybe it’ll save the life of one of Angie’s other brothers or sisters!”
Another year came and went. The four Camptons learned that Angie’s parents had both stopped believing what their religious leaders had told them was the Bible’s firm rule to never use blood even in an emergency.
They were eating at the dinner table on a Saturday. “Yes,” Mrs. Campton said, “Angie’s parents called here and said they appreciated Rickie’s letter. She read it even though her group had told her to never read anything opposed to its views.”
“But Angie’s still dead!” Rickie shouted.
“True. And they feel horrible, of course. But now they too are going to tell other people what they learned from your letter and your dad’s notes. It will save other lives. I like to think Angie is looking on right now and is proud of us all.”
 
wanda
wanda 10 years ago

THE REST OF THE BIBLE’S STORY
WHY THIS WAS WRITTEN
This was mostly written for helping children and adults understand why other people, incorrectly although well-meaning, are wrong about teaching them to not celebrate holidays and birthdays.
Yes, even some very very nice people tell kids (and adults) that God says in the Bible to not celebrate Christmas and birthdays, and also that He also will destroy people who do celebrate them.
That isn’t true, of course, because those nice people are not told the whole story. So it’s important to know The Rest Of The Bible Story about those and some other things.
WHY ELENA’S GRANDPARENTS DIDN’T USE TO CELEBRATE BIRTHDAYS
For example the grandparents of a little girl named Elena told her the only times birthdays are mentioned in the Bible are times when someone was killed. Some people had told that to Elena’s grandparents.
They said Genesis 40:20 says on his birthday a king in the land of Egypt had the heads cut off of his servants who were a butler and a baker.
Also on the birthday of his daughter a wicked king named Herod chopped off the head of a very good man named John the Baptizer. That is at Matthew 14:6 and Mark 6:21.
Elena was told about these terrible things and it looked like the Bible was against birthdays. Her grandparents and some other people really believed that. They didn’t celebrate birthdays and didn’t want Elena to celebrate them either.
But Elena’s grandparents didn’t know the rest of the Bible story. For example, Luke 2:6 says angels celebrated the birth of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Another good man named Job also celebrated birthdays. The Bible says at Job 1:3 that his sons and daughters celebrated their own days. It also says at Job 3:13 that those days were the days when they had been born.
Also, Jude 12 says the earliest Christians used to have “love feasts.” (Jude 12) Those were probably like what we call Christian potluck meals where each person brings a little food then everybody has a good time eating, talking, praying and visiting.

So, you see, the men who taught Elena’s grandparents to not celebrate birthdays were not telling all of what the Bible says.
Yes, happily, the real truth is that it is okay to celebrate your birthday and the birthdays of other people.
When parents celebrate the birth of a child they are showing that they are happy that God gave them the child, and of course children can be happy that God wanted them born.
So why did some people tell things to Elena’s grandparents that were untrue? There is no way to be sure. Maybe they just don’t know the Bible very well, so they didn’t teach it well or right to Elena’s grandparents.
It’s sad that Elena’s grandparents can’t eat some birthday cake with Elena and don’t know the rest of the story about birthdays. Elena is very young, only about five. Maybe sometime Elena or some other person will be able to explain it to them.
Anyway, that’s the rest of the Bible story about birthdays, and may you enjoy many many birthdays in the years ahead of you!
IVAN LEARNS ABOUT CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR’S DAY
Ivan often went to play at his aunt and uncle’s house. One day some people with their own Bibles and some magazines came to the door of the house where Ivan’s uncle and aunt lived.
The two people, a well-dressed man and woman, said God does not want Christians to celebrate Christmas. They claimed that Santa Claus, the Christmas tree and lights were from other religions called pagan religions.
They said those things and a lot of other things. Ivan, his aunt and uncle did not say much but they listened closely.
Ivan was about age twelve. He went home and got on the internet where he found many websites that said such things are pagan but also some that said they are not.
One thing the visitors with Bible and magazines had said is that those who celebrate Christmas on December 25 do so because thousands of years ago Roman people had another celebration on that same day called the Saturnalia. (Sa-tuhr-nay-lee-uh)
Although Ivan found websites which said the same thing he found some said December 25 may be for other reasons. For example before Christianity began there was the Jewish religion.
The Jewish people have had a celebration or holiday called Hannukah. It is also called the Feast of Dedication or the Festival of Lights.
Hannukah was first celebrated on December 25. Nowadays it is usually celebrated on days before or after December 25. Why? Because it is based on the moon instead of the sun.
Ivan found some other interesting things. As said, Jewish people still celebrate Hannukah. That day they have special lights, nice meals and toys for children, just like Christians do at Christmas!
The visitors had also said Santa Claus is not Christian. They had claimed he may have begun with stories about a wizard, meaning a male witch, who lived in the northern part of Russia.
They also said one of their magazines said Santa may even have begun with stories about an ancient god or goddess in China. They said the people who wrote their magazines sure had all the facts, all the Truth about this.
But Ivan quickly found out that Santa Claus had begun with a real person called Saint Nicholas. Nicholas used to give gifts to poor girls. He wore red because he was a bishop. A bishop is a person who teaches about God and carries a cane called a miter.
Ivan next read about the Christmas tree. Some websites said it had come from pagan customs but some others gave other reasons.
For example one talked about scholars. Those are people who study things in a careful, serious way then write about what they learned.
It said that scholars read many old writings. They now know that about 1,500 years ago in Europe people used to have church plays.
One play was about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. In that Bible story there was a tree called the Tree of Paradise.
When people made the play about the Garden of Eden they used a pretty fir tree for the Tree of Paradise. They thought it was so pretty they put trees like it in their own homes.
Some of the people also began to put pretty things like candles on the trees. Nowadays we use Christmas lights instead of candles.
Did Ivan tell his aunt and uncle what he learned? Yes, he did. He also remembered to tell them the Bible itself says angels sang happy songs when Christ was born.
His aunt and uncle both told him thanks. They had been about to stop celebrating Christmas, but his information showed them that it is good to celebrate, and it reminded them that God wants people to be happy.
They told Ivan one of the people’s magazines had also said that celebrating New Year’s is wrong for Christians. They asked if he could find some information about that, too.
Ivan went on the internet again. He discovered that there is information at Leviticus 23 in the Bible.
There God began a New Year’s celebration for the Jewish people which is celebrated much earlier than when most other people celebrate it.
It was clear to Ivan that it’s okay to celebrate New Years, too. It’s not a good idea to drink too much or drink and drive then or at other times, but if we have a nice party and are careful, then it is also fine with God!
DANIEL AND DANIELA HELP OUT THEIR PARENTS
Daniel and Daniela were thirteen year old twins. Their parents were very nice people who wanted the whole family to worship God and tell other people about him.
In fact they taught Daniel and Daniela that God did not want them to salute flags. Why?
The parents said they knew from people they had studied the Bible with that when you salute a flag it is like worshipping the flag, and God want people to only worship God Himself.
So at school the twins did not salute the flag or say an oath of allegiance. One day another boy and girl named Tim and Carol asked them why.
Daniel and Daniela told them what their parents believe. Tim looked puzzled, but Carol smiled and said “I know your parents are good people and somebody told them that, but I can show you different. Can I?”
“You can try, sure. But later we’ll talk to our parents and they tell us stuff to teach you so you’ll know they are right. Our friends wouldn’t teach us anything but the Truth!”
“Yes, I’m sure they really mean to do just that. I’ve got an uncle and he gave me a little booklet about flags. Here, you read it, Daniela.”
Daniela began to read, “Well it says thousands of years ago the tribes of Israel left Egypt. Most nations back then had tiny idols high on poles in front of them as their symbols and to give them protection from pagan gods. But the Israelites wanted to honor God as Exodus 20:4 says. Instead they put flags on the top of their poles. Most Bible translations use the word banner which means a long flag. Psalms 20:5, the Song of Solomon 2:4, and 6:4,10 and many other Bible verses say many nice things about banners or flags. The Israelites and most all humans today think of flags and the oath of allegiance as symbols for showing natural love and respect for nations that God Himself allows to exist. They know flags and oaths of allegiance are not worship.”
“Wow!” said Tim. “That’s interesting! So the Bible itself shows you two guys can salute flags and say the oath of allegiance if you want to.”
Daniel and Daniela now looked puzzled. Daniel spoke, “Well, I guess maybe my parents never heard or thought about those scriptures. I’ll write them down and take them home for Mom and Dad to read.”
The twins did that. At first nothing changed. In fact about five more years passed when suddenly one day their father said, “Guess what, twins! Your mom and I see now that what we thought was the Truth isn’t after all.”
The twins were surprised but happy to finally hear this. Their mother quickly added:
“That’s right. You and your school friends helped us see a little better. It made us want to learn even more. So from now on you have freedom to salute and say an oath of allegiance if you want to. And thanks for setting us all free from that wrong information!”
Daniel and Daniela, now much taller smiled and began to dance around and around while singing out. “That used to make things very difficult for us at school, Mom and Dad. So we’re really glad now – glad, glad, glad! Not sad, sad, sad!”
 
sass_my_frass
sass_my_frass 10 years ago

I suggest that you use your own judgment with regards to taking your son to church to 'counter' the JW influence. Church will be just as boring as a meeting and therefore worth rebelling against. And you can't just expect that he'll pick up some spiritual things just through osmosis, the way most of our parents thought we would when we were at the meetings all our dull childhood. Finally, if you can take him to church, why can't your husband or his family take him to the kingdom hall? Be very careful of setting a precedent.
 
nelly136
nelly136 10 years ago

as he's so young it might be best to keep it simple, equate it to something he can understand.
if you read fairy/children stories to him at home could just tell him theres nice ones and scary ones and auntie likes the scary ones.
then when hes been visiting you can ask him if aunties been reading any of her funny scary ones, if you make light of it and he can see youre not worried about aunties nasty stories maybe he wont be either.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 10 years ago

Very few people become JWs that accurately know both sides of the JW story before getting caught up in it. If you make sure he knows the other side he will not fall for it. You are his mother so he will trust you when you explain that different people believe different things, and they are not always right.
As he gets older discuss some of the crazy things about the WTS. You can tell him some WTS stories, like how a long time ago, 130 years ago a man did not like anyone elses religion so he made up his own one. Then after a while he died and then a big scary man took over the religion and started to tell people if they didn't believe his religion that they would be killed. He even said that Jehovah is going to kill all the little babies. Do you think God wants to kill little babies? No of course not, Read from that scripture that the thought of sacrificing babies has never even entered God's mind. He will soon learn that there are two sides to the story and being a JW is on the strange unkind side.
 
blondie
blondie 10 years ago

This is a situation where control/custody legally is out of your hands for half the time. It is possible to respectfully ask that they not teach your son ideas that you don't agree with, but I know that the WTS teaches JWs to do that to "save" their child.
Think about this, your son is going to get older, be around other non-JW adults and children, go to school, etc. Do you think he will encounter ideas that you don't agree with? I would think so. Can you isolate him from the neighbors, other children, yank him out of school and teach him at home? You could, but that seems a little extreme, and I doubt you would do that.
The best thing to do is not over-react, not be negative out the JW family, give him positive ideas to think about (like jgnat illustrated).
Don't underestimate his love and respect for you and the power of your love and respect for him, no matter his age.
Love, Blondie
 
Pubsinger
Pubsinger 10 years ago


 Go down to your nearest Christian or religious bookshop and find a really nice bible story book.
I run a christian bookshop here in the UK and the WTS "Bible Story" book is hideous, dated and frankly embarressing. I swear that if I put a copy on our shelves it would never sell because it is awful.
I recommend "My Very First Bible" for a three year old. Find it at www.goodbks.com
Do a search on their homepage.
You'll both love it
 
LivingInReality
LivingInReality 10 years ago

touchy subject.... but if i may share my feelings as a mother of a 3 year old myself....i respect the feelings of others that you could just counter the effect of your JW ex-relatives by empowering your child with the ability to reason for himself but there is something more important to take into consideration....
your child is only 3... when he sees pictures in the "My Book of Bible Stories" of people on a rock as the flood waters are just about to swallow them up with faces of pure fear, or Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, or Jezebel getting thrown out a window for the dogs to eat her....(need I go on?)... this is not the shit you want your 3 year old to have to ponder over. These images are a brilliant strategy on the part of the society to begin their mind control through fear of our little ones.
Reason with your child all you want, but those are images and stories that a 3 year old will be affected by. As parents we don't let our kids watch blood and gutts movies, or see pictures of mutilated dead people etc. etc. Why would we allow pictures depicting a "loving" god killing people who didn't listen to him? No matter what you say to "undo" what he might see.... they are going to KEEP showing him the book, keep telling him stories, and keep trying to instill a fear in him.....
My vote is to put your foot down with the family.... this is YOUR child. It is YOUR responsibility to keep your little one free of all of the fear that those sick mind controlling cult members dish out to a child. I agree with all the others who said to get a restraining order and do whatever it is to make sure that they don't see your child again unless they stop. Give them the choice...if they don't listen, you gave them fair warning.
Remember something else here..... if they don't listen to you about leaving religion out of your child's life, they are disrespecting your right to raise your child.... and that sets a precedent for the rest of your child's life... do you want your child to eventually see that they have no respect for your role as the parent?? At first they don't listen to you about this....next it will be something else, and then something else... Put your foot down now and let them know that when you make a choice about the way your child will be raised, it's your choice to make and if they can't respect and abide by your rules...then there is no place for them in your child's life.
Good luck....
shannon
 
Dawn
Dawn 10 years ago

I was in a very similar situation when my son was little. He is now 20 and thank goodness was not snared into this religion - he's in College now and doing great. So hopefully I can pass on some of my advice to you - it worked for me and I believe it will work for you.
First and most importantly - keep the communication going with your son. Don't every get upset or he will not want to talk to you about what Auntie read to him or what some other family member told him. Just talk to him calmly and matter of fact like. I explained to my son many times that Grandma and Grandpa loved him and thought they were doing what was right, but they were wrong. They weren't doing it to be mean, they were just incorrect. This way he didn't feel like he had to choose between me or his gradarents and he didn't feel like he had to defend them or what they said. Then I'd share a bible story with him that reinforced what I was saying - for example, when they talked about him dieing at Armageddon, I read to him the story about how Jesus brought the children to him and said that people like them would inherit the kingdom. And I read to him the scripture that says the angels of children always have God's attention - it reinforced to him that God loved children and he shouldn't be afraid of God.
As he grew older, I was able to reason with him on a deeper level - and still kept the communication opened.
Witnesses are very good at creating discontent and using the situation to "prove" that they are being persecuted and that they're right. Don't fall into that trap - it will only make your son upset and confused. Always remain calm around him and reassuring.
You might also look into a church that has a good children's ministry/sunday school. These are VERY different from the meetings. The Sunday school I work in runs with this type of schedule:
15 minutes of small group (kids get together in a group of 5/6 with a teacher and share stories about their week - these are always with a focus on the weeks lesson like being kind to others, or doing what is right when it's hard) - kids love sharing stories - it's like show and tell
15 minutes of singing - kids love that too. They learn movements (sign language, dance, all kinds of stuff) to go with the songs so they have a lot of fun.
30 minutes of a story - sometimes it's a video we watch, sometimes we have people perform a play, and sometimes we have someone get up and tell a story with props or puppets
20 minutes of games or a craft project - again, the game or project always goes along with the lesson
Well- I hope this info helps you out. It worked for me!
 
blondie
blondie 10 years ago

Good suggestions, Dawn. And you have living proof that it can work.
Blondie
 
limbogirl
limbogirl 10 years ago

To all of you that responded on this thread: Thank You! Once again you've given me a lot to think about...
I think I will start by buying a children's bible story book for him that we can read together since this is clearly an interest of his and obviously he's being taught when not with me. This is going to be a hard exercise for me and I worry he'll eventually ask, "what do you believe, mama?" and what will I say?? Believe it or not, even after not being a jw for 8 years, it's impossible for me to embrace another belief system. Perhaps because of having "this is the truth, we are the only ones who are right" pounded into my head for so many years? I have no idea what I believe (other than the jws are NOT right). I don't even know where to begin looking for my belief system and frankly I wasn't too bothered by it until this issue with my son began surfacing.
Anyway, I appreciate all of the insight...I think Blondie touched on something that is so true....don't underestimate the love and respect of my son. I think because of the situation I'm in and the fact that I don't have full custody of him I get a bit insecure that he'll forget that I'm his mother and maybe he'll be swayed by his Aunt or some other person. I struggle with these feelings a lot. Silly, I know...
and can I just say...I love being a mom...I can't imagine life without my son. Funny how just a few years ago he didn't even exist and now there is this little tornado full of energy in the house. I'm amazed by him every day and so in love with him I can't even believe it sometimes.
Biker-Chic: surely you jest...he won't always think I'm a Goddess?? what?!?!
thank you all again! this forum is the best!!
 
rebel8
rebel8 10 years ago

inform your SIL that you will beat her ass to a stump if she dares to read that to your son.
LOL. There are several reasons why this is inappropriate:
1.In pioneer school here in WT NY State, they told us in no uncertain terms we were not to witness to children w/o their parents' permission. We were instructed to heed the scriptures that say it is the parent's responsibility and we were not to interfere with that. (The one and only time I got someone to agree to a bible study was with a teen. I made her ask her parents' permission and she told me they said yes. When I arrived for the study, dad was there and fuming mad. Daughter did not have permission. I read him the scripture that says it is the parent's decision to make, said I definitely respected that, and left.)
2.It is against social etiquette to teach religion in any form to someone else's child. Big time rude!
3.It is a gigantic violation of appropriate interpersonal boundaries.
This woman is way out of line!
 
truth about the last days
truth about the last days 10 years ago

I should not worry about it, just answer his questions openly and honestly. Just like when he asked you if you were dying. Just answer him, no you are not. As he grows up, he will think and decide that what he has been taught by the other parent or family members have been lying to him. This will be a long term thing, and as mentioned before, do not use him as a pawn. At this early age, he will get confused at the different things that he will be taught by all members of the family. After each visit when he comes back to you, just ask him what happened on that day, so as to keep up with what he has been taught. According to the bible prophecy at 2 Thess 2 (not in NWT), the prophecy there mentions of many "falling away" due to the truths found within the books and mags- the bible story book is one. All those who remains as a JW will be destroyed apon Jesus arrival for that 1000YR reign. In due course, when he gets older, he will find the lies and decete within the religon, then he will decide for himself later on not to get involved within the teachings. I could also suggest that you also get a copy of the book and when he learns something from the book, go over it with him and also use the scriptures- you will not belive of how the storys in "my book of bible storys" do not tally up with what the scriptures say. I wish you every success between your relationship with your son.
 
GentlyFeral
GentlyFeral 10 years ago

limbogirl,
I worry he'll eventually ask, "what do you believe, mama?" and what will I say??
What's wrong with telling him the honest truth about your beliefs, as gently as possible?
GentlyFeral
 
Lady Lee
Lady Lee 10 years ago

I see nothing wrong with telling him you don't really know. And that nobody really knows for sure; none of it can be absolutely proved true. But a lot of people have ideas they think are true.
In reality it is a lot easier to what what NOT to believe than it is to know what TO believe
Truth even when you don't know all the answers is OK. Real truth that is; not the JW brand
 
MidwichCuckoo
MidwichCuckoo 10 years ago

Your sister-in-law ought to read your son something a little less disturbing to start with - maybe a Stephen King novel.
 
AuldSoul
AuldSoul 10 years ago

I recommend buying a few fantastical, make-believe books (Where the Wild Things Are, etc.) and reading them with him. And emphasize that it is all make-believe. It is just pretend. Does he play make-believe games? Ever imitate an airplane or a favorite super-hero, for instance?
Does he like Finding Nemo? Start explaining that make-believe can be very fun, but sometimes it can be a little scary, like when the shark was trying to eat Nemo's daddy. It wasn't real, it was just pretend, but it was scary.
This can build a framework for later explaining that Auntie is playing a make-believe game, and that sometimes the game she is playing isn't very much fun at all.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
 
target
target 10 years ago

My two little grandsons came home from their other Grandmother's house, the JW one, and were distraught that they were going to turn into piles of salt. I asked them to explain why they were worried about that and they told me how Grandma Cindy read them a story. So I just kind of brushed it off telling them that it is a fairy tale and not meant to be taken seriously. They seemed much releaved and have never brought it up again. Now they live in a different state than Grandma Cindy and she has been instructed by their parents to not talk religion in any shape or form to the children.

I did not want to get into a battle of the grandmothers so what I said came across as a "clarification" to them that it was a made up story.

Target
 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
my soon to be three year old son asked me yesterday if i was dying.
i was shocked that he knew the word 'dying' and asked where he heard it.
he proceeded to tell me that his aunt (a jw) read him a story about jesus twiste (christ) and jesus was dying.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/111095/help-family-mbr-reading-my-3-yr-old-my-book-bible-stories?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ House to House and Door to Door proves to be a shame diversion
/  





 

House to House and Door to Door proves to be a shame diversion
by Terry 5 years ago 36 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

English Standard Version(©2001)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
The "work" of preaching is a phony pursuit designed to give the impression to the world at large that the religion is about evangelism. It is not about evangelism.

The Watchtower Society doesn't use public airwaves, broadcasting media, podcasts, Television, DVDs or any contemporary technology proven to be effective.
Do you know why? THEY DON'T WANT THE MESSEGE UNDERSTOOD!!
That's what I said.
Ask 10 people you meet to tell you what they think Jehovah's Witnesses believe ...then, be ready for a big shock!!
They just don't know!! Hardly a soul alive can give a coherent recounting of JW's beliefs. They only know the quirky "don'ts"
That's right. The average John Q. Citizen can only tell you in vague terms what Jehovah's Witnesses DON'T DO or DON'T BELIEVE. They cannot begin to tell you what they DO believe!
Mind you, this is after a veritible blitz of propaganda for over 100 years taken to the very doors of community after community, public talks in local Kingdom Halls and International Assemblies with considerable media coverage.
Does this strike you as peculiar, strange and suspicious?
Well it is on purpose!
The preaching work is a sham and the religion is Pyramid scheme contrived to create "activity", obedience and enough revenue to move forward.
The magazine articles are a front.
Communism pretended to be about the welfare of the worker and the plight of the underprivileged. It wasn't. That was just window dressing to get the disaffected to become true believers and overturn the power structures for a takeover of the real power behind Communism: fascist dictators!
The Watchtower is little different.
Wake up, people. Shine a little light on what this religion is really about.
Look at the facts and follow the money.
Mainstream religion has to do something PUBLICLY with the money they raise like pay for air-time, pay for orphanages in Africa, pay for a new transmitter, pay for a new steeple or glass cathedral or theme park. Mainstream religion wears its charity on its sleeve. Mainstream religions build schools and colleges and hospitals with the money they receive and still have a fortune leftover to house the preacher in luxury and splendor!
But, Jehovah's Witnesses present a public face deceptively out of touch with the real power brokers in Brooklyn that serves to deflect these questions. There is no PUBLIC FACE of a leader with a smile and a glib messege. It is about anonymity and busy-busy non-productive statistics.
The JW who knocks on the local door is dressed in a Montgomery Ward suit and a scuffed pair of cheap shoes. They don't take collections at their Kingdom Halls. The have no starving children in far off lands to solict for because charity is on the down-low with them.
They make no social progress with women's shelters, rehab centers for drug dependant family members or even day care or work-related programs to boost employment among the poor.
They build no colleges, hospitals or orphanages. Yet, they publicly decry the christian denominations who do.
Jesus, for JW's, has ALREADY returned and is directing them! Jesus has been behind everything for the last 96 years!!
OH, REALLY?
Wouldn't the ministry of Jehovah's Witnesses far outstrip the charity and education accomplishments of competing religion in some noticable ways IF THIS WERE TRUE?
But, no! The Watchtower wheels are stuck in the same mud spinning impotently for the last hundred years with NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT except changes in how they make excuses for their backward inattention to Jesus' own commands:
Bible in Basic English
The religion which is holy and free from evil in the eyes of our God and Father is this: to take care of children who have no fathers and of widows who are in trouble, and to keep oneself untouched by the world.
1 Timothy 5:8: 8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Think about it.
Constant admonition by the Watchtower to NOT pursue higher education or obtain a career to earn a better living flies in the face of true christian concern for one's family. How many JW families struggle on one paycheck?
Think hard.
How many hours devoted to door to door work and bible study is required to convert even ONE person to being an active JW?
The Pharisees are portrayed in scripture as travelling far and wide to make one convert and yet producing disastrous results. The modern Pharisee (know-it-all-JW) does the same!
According to the Organization with its Governing Body pronouncements of "Truth", the bible was written for and directed to the chosen elite with the heavenly hope and not to the rank and file "other sheep."
If this were truly so, would that not mean the admonitions to preach the Good News of the Kingdom would, logically, be directed soley to the chosen elite and not to the the rank and file as well?
If the Governing Body possesses that magically spirit-directed message of Truth--and they ONLY--it would be irresponsible for non-anointed to take upon themselves work given to the chosen few, would it not?
It seems to me the Door to Door ministry should only be handled by the anointed by the logic of the above premise.
After all, think about this. According to the Watchtower "wisdom", the reaction of the listener to the message received in the preaching work (door to door) is the determining factor of LIFE or DEATH for that householder. Would it not behoove the anointed to make certain the message isn't poorly handled, ineptly delivered, amateurishly presented and ultimately bungled?
Think of it like this. If there is a medical emergency you want to send it emergency medical help that is rigorously qualified to administer state-of-the-art life-saving intervention to prevent unnecessary death---right? You don't send in 1st year Med Students or hobbyists, right?
Why? Because, the patient would suffer as a result.
Analogously, the householder hearing the Jehovah's Witness "Truth" presentation should get it from the elite corp of specially selected persons whom Jehovah has appointed as Judges, Kings and Priests.
To leave Door to Door work in the hands of second-hand sheep who don't qualify to rule with Jesus and who don't deserve heavenly hope is tantamount to delivering inept emergency care to the sick and dying.
Isn't this malfeasance of the highest order?
The Watchtower Society should be ashamed to turn over its quintessential purpose and work to the dogs who yap at the table for crumbs: the earthly hope second-handers who don't merit heaven.
At least, the above is how it really stacks up if you look at it without the Watchtower spin attached.
Getting others to do your work for you is manipulative in the first place and sanctimoniously illicit if you are the chosen one whose "chosen" status depends on how you discharge that responsibility.
Remember, historically, the Catholic Church made up rules and the lay person had to follow them. The lay person could not read their own bible and decide what was True. It was the Catholic hierarchy who interpreted on matters of faith and morals and not the sole christian with an open heart in prayer to God.
Martin Luther came up with the new idea of Sola Scriptura: one christian, one bible, prayer to God and the Holy Spirit giving the Truth directly in the name of Jesus.
The Watctower has gone back to the Catholic way of doing things. Only the Governing Body can tell us what the bible really means and we must do as they determine. Reading your bible cannot reveal or open up anything that the GB hasn't first approved.
Russell, Rutherford and all those who followed merely went back to the Catholic method of doing things.
The doctrine of Faithful and Discreet Slave is nothing less than the Catholic doctrine of Majesterium. Hierarchy is in charge of the Kingdom Hall, preaching work and interpretations of faith and morals. What THEY say is what is viewed as Truth. No one else can go to Jehovah in prayer and see anything worth seeing.
This goes a long way toward explaining why Jehovah's Witnesses never see themselves as PROTESTANTS! They never left the Catholic way of doing things!

United In Worship-1983-p.111 "Special attention was being given to making up the government that would rule mankind for 1,000 years, and nearly all the inspired letters in the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily directed to this group of Kingdom heirs--"the holy ones," "partakers of the heavenly calling." Watchtower-1970-January-1-p.19 That is what allpeople who have come to know Jehovah and his beloved Son, Christ Jesus, are required to do now. Real Christians today, like the apostles,musthelp people to whom they preach so that such ones can understand God’s Word. They must be teachers and help each disciple or learner to get the sense of the “word of the kingdom.” Jesus said: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matt. 24:14) This, Jehovah’s witnesses are really trying to do. When they do make disciples it is necessary for these to dedicate their lives and be baptized in water so as to make a full expression before Jehovah and Christ Jesus and their brothers that they are going to do the will of God henceforth as that will is set forth in his written Word.
Jehovah's WITNESSES are not able to testify in any courtroom-accepted sense of "having witnessed" an event.
In a legal sense, to witness something you must have first hand observation and experience. Relaying the testimony of someone else it is considered hearsay evidence and is not admisable in court.
Given the doctrine that only the annointed can understand most of scripture, and they pass their knowledge to the great crowd; a rank and file member of the great crowd could not possibly be considered a primary witness, as they would be mostly presenting hearsay testimony to a householder.

The premise and the result are both a sham.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not "witness" anything......not really.
To declare that they do is to tell a lie.
The door to door work is merely repeating hearsay.
They are Jehovah's Liars for certain.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

If you hire a person to dig a swimming pool for you by the hour and they ask to be paid after 96 years of digging wouldn't you want
to be able to see a hole?
The JW's door to door work is like that. They dig and dig and dig and dig and produce all sorts of hourly claims but there never appears a hole to put the water in!!
Yet, they want to be paid.
Paid how? They want their wages as EFFECTIVE MINISTERS.
The worker is worthy of his wages.
What is the hole they are digging?
They peddle the Armageddon event!
What is the Armageddon event?
1.You will die if you don't become like us.

For all those people who DID become JW's there is no payoff after thousands of hours of digging. No EVENT.

It is worth pointing this out. Surely you can see that.
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 5 years ago

I'll go one better than that Terry, its a coercive sham presented and holographed as an endeavor to save human life.
Unfortunately its beginning foundation was orchestrated by turn of the century charlatans who owned and operated a publishing company.
The foundation of corruption was laid down by these men, if the following leaders wanted to truly and honestly present the truth and there
was connection with power and money, they would have broken down and disassembled what was previously created.
 
jay88
jay88 5 years ago

I think the hole they are digging is for the corpses at the big 'A'.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

You need not attack a JW; merely challenge the RESULTS of their beliefs in real terms.
1.What has Jesus produced in his work as the returned King enthroned in heaven for the last 96 years?
2.If Armageddon is the confirming event of the preached warnings--how is it they still don't have any firm grasp of its chronology (as demonstrated by their failures at prediction?
3.Preaching the "vindication of Jehovah's name" was THE purpose of their ministry until recently. Does that mean they were wrong? If not, why?
4.The change in the generation teaching means there is no verifiable block of time between enthronement and Armageddon. Why did they offer the original generation teaching for so many years if it was an error?
5.Every magazine ever offered at a door contained "food at the proper time". Most of that has been displaced and made obsolete by newer "new light" teaching. Why doesn't that INVALIDATE those messeges in those magazines as untrue?
 
carla
carla 5 years ago

marking to read when my jw isn't hanging around!
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 5 years ago

One thing you can make as an observation about the JWS is there is an operating perpetual wheel of Truth being spewed out in their literature,
where truth that was printed decades ago is magically untruthful, just as today's truth is posthumously held to with diligence.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

JW's who come to your door can expect to be asked questions, can't they?
May as well ask them some good ones.
 
dgp
dgp 5 years ago

I fully agree that the average person knows next to nothing about Jehovah's witnesses. I was one myself, and not because I wasn't exposed to the magazines. My grandpa used to have a grocery store, and, as a child, only every so often I would help at the store and find a magazine I hadn't seen before. My grandpa wasn't religious, but the witnesses came to place the magazines there. I remember that I read "My Book of Bible Stories" and "Your Youth - Getting out the best of it", or whatever the name was, when I was a boy. And yet I didn't really know anything about the Watchtower.
That is something the Watchtower uses to advantage. At first sight, it seems stupid not to use the benefits of modern technologies and mass media to spread your message. Their message would reach millions at once. But then they would be open to public scrutiny and questioning, and their secretive leaders could be exposed as the frauds they are. I think they control what information they give because they want to be able to provide an "authoritative" message and at the same time discredit the ideas spread by former members, sites like this one, et cetera. Something like "Now that you've met us and see how sweet and loving we are, are you going to believe Satan, or are you going to believe us?"
I read somewhere, I don't remember where, that one of the real purposes of the door-to-door preaching is to force the believer to do some concrete work for them. It's the same as in a certain Communist country, for example, where you had to jump up in a public demonstration, or else. I am sure they know it brings them just a few converts, but that is not what the door-to-door preaching is really about. It's about controlling the believers.
Websites like this one do hurt the Watchtower because they do inform people on the outside about what to expect.
As to the Watchtower doing things the Catholic way, well, yes, as a former devout Catholic I can tell you it really does. It's one of the first things that you find familiar. But, you immediately realize it's the Catholic Church of, say, 500 years ago. If I wanted to be a Catholic again, I could simply walk back into a church, ask for confession, maybe say a prayer or two, and that would be it. I could attend the church without even doing that if I wanted. No one would prevent me from joining a religious celebration. Thanks to the Enlightenment, the Catholic Church does not have the power it used to have, but, if the Catholic Church ever told its believers to shun their infidel spouses, for example, I haven't learned that from anyone. They did have the Inquisition and worse, yes, but in some respects the Watchtower is more fiercely authoritarian than the Catholic Church.
 
eric356
eric356 5 years ago

I think it's better to think of the WT religion as a meme. Its goal is to reproduce itself in the minds of people. Door to door witnessing has a few advantages as an "infection vector":
1. Low cost. The WT doesn't have to pay much to distribute information. People work for free, and they donate more than enough to make up for the paper. It was even better when they charged.
2. Generates group cohesion. Door to door sucks, but it generates cohesion by giving people similar difficult experiences and eliminating group "freeloaders" who dilute the zeal of the whole group.
3. It's a brand thing. Excepting the Mormons, JWs are the only group that proselytize on a large scale. This allows people to identify them and separate them from other groups.
4. It seems to work. Door to door seems to be successful at targeting the type of people who often become witnesses. Unemployed, low income, shut-ins with limited human interaction, etc.
4. It takes up time. It tires members out and keeps them from reflection too much on the religion.
 
Timothy Riches
Timothy Riches 5 years ago

Terry, you could run circles around any elder I've met! :grinning:
 
moshe
moshe 5 years ago

The WT printed 100's of millions of the blue Truth book starting around 1969. Outside of a JW home, you would have a hard time locating one of these old books today- so much for the value of WT literature to worldly folks. Lots of people studied that book with JWs and the big A was put forth as a big "maybe" to develop enthusiam. Like Terry said, there was no hole to show the worldly people after they finished studying the book- so there was no act two to keep them interested in becoming JWs.
 
Bungi Bill
Bungi Bill 5 years ago

The comparison between WTS's methods of indoctrination, and those of the more extreme political ideologies (such as communism) , is rather frightening.

It should be obvious to anybody that if you were really all about issuing a mass warning of an approaching catastrophe, you would use the
mass media. That is what the authorities do around here whenever there is a bush-fire alert:
i.e.
- radio announcements, televised public warnings, internet sites that are accessible to the public.
- and if the fires do approach in close to residential areas, the final and immediate evacuation warnings are sounded from the P.A. systems on the emergency service vehicles.
The one thing you would never see is a mob of volunteers running from house to house with printed warnings!

That the WTS does not use such means to warn of this business of "Armegeddon", which has always been "very close" (apparently), indicates to me at least that they themselves don't believe it.
Primarily, their door to door activity serves as a stick with which to beat the rank and file. I even recall an elder once saying as much:
- only he phrased it as "the only measure that we have of a persons spirituality."

It is also a way of keeping the rank and file busy, distracted and - when combined with the inhuman schedule of meetings - worn out.
Again, this was part of communism's indoctrination process - work the people all day, then require them to attend mind numbing "political meetings" that ran well into the night.
If Schnell, in his "For Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave" is to be believed, J F Rutherford knew his that prediction about the end coming in 1925 was nonsense. It did not, however, overly concern him that the R & F took it seriously;
- his solution (thought out in advance), was to distract the R & F by keeping them "busy with distributing the literature."
(Schnell was privy to this, while acting as Rutherford's interpreter during a meeting with the WTS's director for Germany).

thetrue one just summed it up beautifully "a coercive sham presented and holographed as an endeavor to save human life."

Bill.
 
finallysomepride
finallysomepride 5 years ago

bookmarked
 
streets76
streets76 5 years ago

3.Preaching the "vindication of Jehovah's name" was THE purpose of their ministry until recently.
The "vindication" thing was big when I was associated years ago (and it didn't make much sense to me). So you're saying that has changed? What is it now?
 
The_Present_Truth
The_Present_Truth 5 years ago

Terry,
You're spot on as always. I raised some of these points to my parents about 10 years ago prior to my big departure. I asked them to pay attention in field service and notice how seldom the "Witnesses" invite the householder to the Kingdom Hall vs. how often they just offer them literature. It's obvious when you pay attention that the work is focused on getting that literature in people's hands. I also raised the question about using more effective methods of media. Afterall, why not? Years ago they used a radio show and billboards. Why not now? It's precisely because it would show the public how messed up they really are and invite public scrutiny from individuals who really know what they're talking about. They wouldn't like that one bit. Using the door to door method, they keep things on their terms. If they meet a householder that has them outgunned on the knowledge of doctrine and they can't refute it, all they have to do is excuse themselves from the porch by saying, "We clearly have a difference of opinion. It was nice to meet you. Have a good day." When that happens, the neighbors to the left and right of that house have no idea what just happened in that conversation and that the Witness was unable to defend their beliefs against the critique just offered up. Conversely, imagine a radio show or talk show that an entire neighborhood could be listening to. The "Terry" calls in on the question line. Uh oh!!! Terry gives them both barrells, in a subtle, logical way. There's no place to go. It's out there for the whole world to listen to. Now what? Entire neighborhoods, in fact the entire audience could actually "witness" what just happened. Terry just handed the "Witnesses" their hat and they couldn't make a logical, factual defense for their teachings.
You make an excellent point about being a literal "witness" to an event or happening. Add this to it. Considering the "testimony they've given over the decades, and how it has been sworn to be absolute truth - to which they have held the rank and file and handed out punishment based on- to see how many times their testimony (story) has changed and become different, is that PERJURY?



per·ju·ry [ púrj?ree ] ( plural per·ju·ries )
noun 

Definition:

1. telling lies under oath:  the telling of a lie after having taken an oath to tell the truth, usually in a court of law
2. lie under oath:  a lie told in a court of law by somebody who has taken an oath to tell the truth
[ 14th century. Via Anglo-Norman< Latin perjurium< perjurare (see perjure ) ]
 
Great points Terry. Would love to have you sit down with my family and lift the scales from their eyes.
The_Present_Truth

 
 
designs
designs 5 years ago

The biggest event that changed the fortunes of the Society was when a bright State Tax person, I believe it started in Michigan, won the battle to have the Society pay Sales Tax for all of the Literature they were selling at people's doors. TaDA! the Donation Ministry began.
 
Scully
Scully 5 years ago

At least this kind of digging is productive:



 
nancy drew
nancy drew 5 years ago

Some theatrical spectacle to the world
 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 5 years ago

TERRY,
Good post. Of course, the door-to-door work is useless. I always felt it was nothing more than a yardstick to measure the 'faithfulness', 'spirituality' of the rank and file JWs.
Door-to-Door work also serves to make the JWs 'visible' in the community and it is really the religion's trademark. It distinguishes them from most other religions which is what the religion wants: to differ just for the sake of being different. So, I really do not see them abandoning door-to-door work altogether no matter how obviously worthless (time-wise and gas-wise) it is. They will always find an excuse to do it even for just little tract distributions.
As far as the religion REALLY doing a life-saving preaching work: they would most certainly use the media. However, I do NOT see them doing this because they would be subject to intense scrutiny, the likes of which they could never stand. They wouldn't just be joke material for comedians, they would get ripped apart by critics and would be inundated with even more bad publicity.
I think they just prefer to be moseying along leisurely ringing doorbells. They like the status-quo.
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
blondie
Blondie's Highlights You Did Not Hear at the 8-23-2015 WT Study (PRAYER 1)
by blondie 6 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
ILoveTTATT2
"Mediator" not Mediator, "Judge" not Judge... Watchtower word games
by ILoveTTATT2 7 months ago
Wonderment
The mistranslation of John 14.10
by Wonderment 3 months ago
BluesBrother
How did Matthew Use the Word "Generation"?
by BluesBrother 6 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/202646/house-house-door-door-proves-shame-diversion






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ House to House and Door to Door proves to be a shame diversion
/  





 

House to House and Door to Door proves to be a shame diversion
by Terry 5 years ago 36 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
Heaven
Heaven 5 years ago


Terry. You can't tell these people *anything.* That's what i've learned. No Communicato. EOM.

Actually, when they knock on my door I tell THEM that they are Jehovah's Witnesses (because they don't say who they are). That puts them off guard right away because they don't expect anyone to really know about them.
I let them do their schpiel and then I launch into a story about how my Mom was a Jehovah's Witness and she was so miserable that she smoked herself into the grave. I then ask them the question "How can a woman with such wonderful hopes and beliefs do this to herself?"
They can't wait to get off my porch.
The door-to-door work is 'busy work' -- even the Governing Body has admitted to this. It give the masses something to do that they think is all important so that they don't concentrate on the things that are niggling in the back of their psyche.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

The last few (very few) JW's that came to the door were soooooo young and clueless about anything their religion taught more than a month ago it was astounding.
Among the older folks who still knock doors there may still be a few that have that ego working which makes them cocksure they can answer any objection.
Everybody who is intellectually dead among the JW's doesn't really care what has been wrong or may now be wrong; they are on auto pilot.
The best and most fertile ground for planting a seed that might cause somebody to investigate beyond the Society's literature is never quite known for certain. It only takes the effort to give a calm response that sets the mind back into activity again away from the programming.
I use to make the analogy that the food at the proper time they were delivering at the door was rancid, spoiled and refried error on stale bread.
Meals on Heels, I called it. People who taste it eventually puke up their common sense.
 
Pahpa
Pahpa 5 years ago

The house to house ministry was a lucrative business for the Watchtower
Society for years. People often paid for the literature just to get rid of
the persistent Jehovah's Witness. The "publisher" guaranteed a constant
demand for the literature even though most of it ended up in trash bins.
Today, the "profit" is internal. Whatever the Watchtower publishes, it has
ready consumers among its members. But no Jehovah's Witness ever
thinks to ask why all this is necessary. Jesus and the apostles spread
the "good news" by mouth. They used a public forum for their audience.
(Synagogues, public squares, personal contact, etc.) There is no
clear record that a house to house ministry ever existed at that time.
 
Timothy Riches
Timothy Riches 5 years ago

Even the DVDs they release are for internal consumption, limited distribution, aggressively purged from public video sites. It all adds up. I can't believe I haven't noticed these things together before.
 
sabastious
sabastious 5 years ago

This is an amazing post, Terry.
Thank you for it.
-Sab
 
Sour Grapes
Sour Grapes 5 years ago

You can learn more here in one day than a life time sitting
in the Kingdom Hall.
 
The_Present_Truth
The_Present_Truth 5 years ago

I called my mom out on the fact the the WT is just a publishing company using them as guinea pigs to buy their literature after she called me about a year ago I guess, and was raving about some new publication they had gotten either at the circuit assembly or the district convention. I'm like, "Oh really? Is there something in this "new" publication that hasn't already been covered in the thousands of previous publications?" (((Gasp))) on the other end of the phone. She says the publication has "new" information. I asked her if she knew what Solomon said regarding things that were "new" and the writing of many books?
Then I quoted her Eccl. 1:9,10: 9 : " That which has come to be, that is what will come to be; and that which has been done, that is what will be done; and so there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Does anything exist of which one may say: “See this; it is new”? It has already had existence for time indefinite; what has come into existence is from time prior to us."
and then quoted Eccl: 12:11,12:
11 " The words of the wise ones are like oxgoads, and just like nails driven in are those indulging in collections [of sentences]; they have been given from one shepherd. 12 As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh."

(((GASP))) !!!!!
She's like, "Who have you been talking to? APOSTATES???" (Yep, those darn apostates.)

I told her, "Just been reading my Bible mom. The only book God gave us and has saw fit to preserve all these years and not add to it. Considering that the WTBTS has only been around a short time - maybe what, 150 years+/-? ... I guess God felt the Bible was enough for mankind to get by with for the first 5850 years of mankind's existence (+/-) without having some publishing company printing thousands of books and magazines to interpret it. Don't you think?"
(((GASP)))
It's sad, sad when people are so delusional they can't put two and two together. I just got done watching a spot on CNBC talking about a Scientologist minister turned Ponzi scheme ochestrator. There's a sucker born every minute. Considering I'm in the investment business (legitimate, registered with FINRA/NASD and the States I conduct business in), I sit there and watch these TV shows on Ponzi schemes and see all the flags. I think to myself, "How do people buy into this cr@p???" One of the comments made by one of the SEC agents that took the guy down was that "in California, what sells big is exclusivity - limited access, 'only a few can get in' type sales pitches".
In a way, that's the pitch the WTBTS and JW's are making to people, and there are still those out there buying it hook, line and sinker. "Narrow is the road leading to everlasting life, and few are the ones traveling it. We know the way. Follow us."
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

Speaking of collections...

Any active JW (who is a closet-Apostate) could with a little effort perform a great visual demonstration.
They could assemble all the published books by the Watchtower Society on a table top with a sign next to it:
"How many of these books are still True"?

What interesting discussion might ensue!
 
The_Present_Truth
The_Present_Truth 5 years ago

That would be priceless Terry.  That's a YouTube video waiting to happen.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

Even a person skilled at Photoshop could probably do it with a bit of cut and paste from sources all over the Internet.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 5 years ago

They don't really want the message to be Understood?
Too right they don't..If the public understood that they are preaching fire and brimstone, death and destruction to all non believers...they would get so much bad publicity, may even be closed down. They give, instead, a bland "Would you like to understand The Bible?", type of presentation. Only when a person is hooked in, on the promise of "World Peace" do they learn the hard stuff.
You are right, we always said that the main purpose (we used to say benefit) of The Ministry was to keep the congregation busy...
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

As I mentioned on another topic:
According to the Watchtower Society the Divine Plan of Jehovah is to select for himself a core of constituents from among all the people, perfect them and rule the world after wreaking havoc, shock and awe upon his enemies. A thousand years of peace will follow.
I feel repugnance at Watchtower Society for having stolen the actual plans of ADOLF HITLER and passing them off as God's!
Hitler planned on gathering together a Master Race and inflicting terror and death on all who didn't meet his standards, after which, the Third Reich would rule a thousand years.

Says alot about the Governing Body, doesn't it?
This sounds good to them too!
 
The_Present_Truth
The_Present_Truth 5 years ago

Thank goodness I have blonde hair and blue eyes.
 
stapler99
stapler99 5 years ago

What has been said is very true and I agree with it. If Armageddon was imminent there would be much better ways of warning about it.

It's not necessarily true that the way a sect sustains itself has been designed by anyone. Sometimes you just have to hit on a design which works. Jehovah's Witnesses are old enough that even the people at the top are true believers, whatever you think of Rutherford et al. They seem to fill a niche - they have made converts and the high commitment and inward looking cultishness has been successful in keeping members. (High commitment? Yes, this makes it an important part of your life and makes you justify to yourself you have spent your time.) This is at the expense of a huge amount of members' time, of course.
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 5 years ago

Terry, awesome as always, Is there a list out there with all the pubs and their erroneous teachings? If someone helps finding the sources I can the collage easily.
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

marking...
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago



 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
english standard version(2001).
woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites!
for you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.. .



Related Topics
blondie
Blondie's Highlights You Did Not Hear at the 8-23-2015 WT Study (PRAYER 1)
by blondie 6 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
ILoveTTATT2
"Mediator" not Mediator, "Judge" not Judge... Watchtower word games
by ILoveTTATT2 7 months ago
Wonderment
The mistranslation of John 14.10
by Wonderment 3 months ago
BluesBrother
How did Matthew Use the Word "Generation"?
by BluesBrother 6 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/202646/house-house-door-door-proves-shame-diversion?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
/  





 

YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
by Terry 9 years ago 93 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

The door to door work is a sham.
The central activity of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is not spreading their so-called "messege" about the Kingdom of Jehovah established in the heavens in 1914. That's a load of propaganda.
The door to door activity is feckless in producing converts. In fact, it is an immense failure of mammoth proportions!
But, it is a diversion. It is a dodge to keep the rank and file busy. The "work" of preaching is a phoney pursuit designed to give the impression to the world at large that the religion is about evangelism. It is not about evangelism.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is about real estate holdings, investments of monies and high octane movement of currencies laundered in the guise of religious activity.
It is like the Roach Motel. The money checks in, but, in never checks out!!
They don't pay their workers enough to keep a hobo alive. There is no retirement plan, no 401 K, no charities like hospitals or trauma centers or battered women's shelters for the money to be spent on. JW's don't build schools or colleges and don't even plough back money into the local community with social activity centers or reading programs for the illiterate! They are totally uncharitable and anti-social. Therefore the money that comes in from their publishing exploits and free distribution networks of gullible grunts at the local Kingdom Halls, is money that cannot be accounted for.
Guess what? They are a religion; they DON'T HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR A PENNY OF IT!!
The Watchtower Society doesn't use public airwaves, broadcasting media, podcasts, Television, DVDs or any contemporary technology proven to be effective. Do you know why? THEY DON'T WANT THE MESSEGE UNDERSTOOD!!
That's what I said.
Ask 10 people you meet to tell you what they think Jehovah's Witnesses believe ...then, be ready for a big shock!!
They just don't know!! Hardly a soul alive can give a coherent recounting of JW's beliefs. They only know the quirky "don'ts"
That's right. The average John Q. Citizen can only tell you in vague terms what Jehovah's Witnesses DON'T DO or DON'T BELIEVE. They cannot begin to tell you what they DO believe!
Mind you, this is after a veritible blitz of propaganda for over 100 years taken to the very doors of community after community, public talks in local Kingdom Halls and International Assemblies with considerable media coverage.
Does this strike you as peculiar, strange and suspicious?
Well it is on purpose!
The preaching work is a sham and the religion is about money; hidden money; big money.
The magazine articles are a front.
Communism pretended to be about the welfare of the worker and the plight of the underprivileged. It wasn't. That was just window dressing to get the disaffected to become true believers and overturn the power structures for a takeover of the real power behind Communism: fascist dictators!
The Watchtower is little different.
Wake up, people. Shine a little light on what this religion is really about.
Look at the facts and follow the money.
Mainstream religion has to do something PUBLICLY with the money they raise like pay for air-time, pay for orphanages in Africa, pay for a new transmitter, pay for a new steeple or glass cathedral or theme park. Mainstream religion wears its charity on its sleeve. Mainstream religions build schools and colleges and hospitals with the money they receive and still have a fortune leftover to house the preacher in luxury and splendor!
But, Jehovah's Witnesses present a public face deceptively out of touch with the real power brokers in Brooklyn that serves to deflect these questions about "where does the money go?" The JW who knocks on the local door is dressed in a Montgomery Ward suit and a scuffed pair of cheap shoes. They don't take collections at their Kingdom Halls. So, the public face is that of shabbiness and under achievement. Little do the folks know about the cash cow printing presses in New York, the investment portfolios and the stagnant accumulation of mountains of currency.
Think about it.
Think hard.
The messege doesn't matter.
 
Abandoned
Abandoned 9 years ago

Excellent overview Terry!
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 9 years ago

Interesting thoughts and theories, Terry, thank you.
I must say it seems to me of all the JW folks I knew in my life, I can only think of one who actually came in from the door-to-door work. I have asked myself so many times... why do they do it? Your theory works too well.
Baba.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 years ago

Terry..This is one of the better threads I`ve have read on this subject..I have often wondered who the WBT$ is a front for..You don`t just happen to own 50% of a multi-billion(Rand cam engine Corp.)company that is part of the War Machine...OUTLAW
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

Terry..This is one of the better threads I`ve have read on this subject..I have often wondered who the WBT$ is a front for..You don`t just happen to own 50% of a multi-billion(Rand cam engine Corp.)company that is part of the War Machine...OUTLAW
Think of Dick Cheney for a moment.
To the untrained eye he was a successful businessman who gave up a multimillion dollar job with a vast Oil empire to devote himself to public service. As the vice-president he is privvy to decisions which affect the fortunes of his previous employer to the tune of billions! He has plausible deniability.
Haliburton has its hands in every pie. Dick Cheney represented Haliburton before "detaching" himself and going into the vice-presidency. Haliburton has multibillion dollar contracts because of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Is there an ulterior motive or is that just rampant left-wing paranoia?
The prudent neutral person would have to ponder the situation long and hard, wouldn't they?
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society owns their own printing presses, makes their own ink and paper and have free distribution of any/everything they print to all corners of the Earth. They charge money for their books, magazines, etc. They don't pay their distributors anything by way of wages/salary. Is this profitable? Doesn't matter because they are a tax-exempt religious organization that doesn't answer to public scrutiny.
Is there an ulteror motive or is it just rampant apostate paranoia?
The prudent neutral person would have to ponder the situation long and hard, wouldn't they?
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 9 years ago

Once upon a time, in a land not too far away a Confidence was discovered.
"Oh, what do we have here ? " cried a seer to his friends.
"Why a most wonderful and clever device, don't you see?"
"All we have to do is massage it a bit, and the world is ours, for you and me! "
 
vitty
vitty 9 years ago

This is a really interesting post
Shouldnt the WT be seriously investigated by some authority. How do they get away with everything, scandals, tax exemption and they manage to do all this by keeping 6 million people in the dark about their activities.
I often wonder if a local paper campaign, would make a difference. If a letter sent to our own local papers explaining how the WT work to local people, then maybe the message would start getting through to the local witness
Maybe a letter sent to your MP or county councilor ( Britain)...............I dont know what it is in the US.................surley someone would be interested in all that lost revenue the WT is exempt from paying to the goverment or local town council ?????
 
Stealth453
Stealth453 9 years ago

Good call. I have been spouting the same things for years, but no one listens to an old fart like me.... Give 'em shit.
 
bernadette
bernadette 9 years ago

good post Terry.
The poor oppressed ones the WBTS are defrauding are kept so busy slaving they don't see the truth.
We need to keep on emphasising the point
bernadette
 
Dismembered
Dismembered 9 years ago

Greetings Terry,
Once again you've hit a homerun. I concur 100%. You've defined that snake in the grass organization to a tee. Thanks for the post.
Dismembered
 
JAVA
JAVA 9 years ago

Terry--Good thread; thanks for putting it together! To a large degree the god of the Tower is the Money God. I don't believe it started off that way, but it's all about $$$ today, and has been for many years. The rank-n-file are busy counting hours, and they don't see behind the WT curtain of Power, Control, and Real Estate. The Tower does not spend a dime on helping others--it's all about them. It takes a lot of money to feed the ego of the only true religion.
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Excellent post Terry, I too have said the same things for years. This is the only organization/business I have ever known to rake in a billion dollars a year, and yet no-one knows where its going. Almost all mainstream religions in the US show some evidence of where their money is going. The WT Society's money is just funneled into a black hole. Here's something else to ponder--supposedy the WT Society is composed of 300 shareholders who vote once a year in October at the annual meeting. I have been on this site for several years and I have yet to find anyone who can name these 300 shareholders, other than a few obvious people. Since the WT Society is a privately traded company they are not required to disclose the identity of their shareholders.
 
Outaservice
Outaservice 9 years ago

Brothers, the assembly is still running a deficit at this late hour. Can you leave us the farm?
Outaservice (get um God )
 
moshe
moshe 9 years ago

Ask 100 witnesses to write 300 word essays about the "King of the North", "Jesus the mediator of the new covenant" or "History of the Watchtower Society" and the average JW couldn't muster even 50 words on the subject. Time and again the ex-JW has made a monkey out of active JW's who try to discuss doctrines and history of their organization. I think they just zone out after a few years of changes to their original teachings and stop trying to update their beliefs. The average JW kid in the USA knows 99% more information about the Presidents of America, than about the presidents/leaders of the WT Society.
 
karnage
karnage 9 years ago

I was discussing some of these very same points to my wife just the other day. If they Witnesses were trying to gain more people into the organization, then something like community events or a hospital would surely get them some attention. But instead, they do nothing. They would rather ambush you at a gas station or super market (Parking Lot Witnessing) into present the Watchtower and Awake magazines. I don't get it all. It doesn't make any sence to me.
 Terry, you are on to something brother! Just where does all of that money that the WTBS gains goes? Great questions!
 
crankytoe
crankytoe 9 years ago

Makes sense,
 
MadTiger
MadTiger 9 years ago

You make me proud that my first name is Terry also. *smile*
"Watchtower Bible & Tract Society owns their own printing presses, makes their own ink and paper and have free distribution of any/everything they print to all corners of the Earth. They charge money for their books, magazines, etc. They don't pay their distributors anything by way of wages/salary. Is this profitable? Doesn't matter because they are a tax-exempt religious organization that doesn't answer to public scrutiny."
 Vertical integration.
 I have swept aside things in the past, before my stint, as well as during it, about the sincerity and motives of the organization. But in the last few weeks, I have seen very convincing information here that really points to the true purpose of the main people in the organization - securing a tax-free empire. There are sincere people within the ranks, as I once was myself. But, with things like the Tacoma Parking scandal, and other situations like it, there are too many instances of deceit and duplicity when it comes to money, or the threat of lawsuits, which, of course, deal in money.
 If the organization's leaders truly trusted in Jehovah and had the backing of holy spirit, it would not concern itself with the things it concerns itself with. Period.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

Mad Tiger wrote:
But, with things like the Tacoma Parking scandal, and other situations like it, there are too many instances of deceit and duplicity when it comes to money, or the threat of lawsuits, which, of course, deal in money.
Right on. Did it ever occur to any of these corporate-religion pigs that Armaggedon would actually be the worst thing that could possibly happen to the WT society? You know - no more normal society to depend on for infrastructure, no ordinary (employed) citizens to mooch on for the magazine contributions, no more free ride from a progressive government that refuses to tax even the wierdest of religious cults, etc...?
BTW, would you mind bringing us back up to date on the "Tacoma Parking scandal" - it rings a bell, but I can't recall the details.
Thanks, James
 
Quandry
Quandry 9 years ago

No, I didn't know. Thanks for the info.
I didn't even shop Montgomery Ward many times. I went to the second hand store for myself and my little girl. I would sew new lace to the bottom of a second hand dress. I made all her hairbows. I bought second hand toys. My husband had his shoes resoled after walking so much in service.
Why did we this? Because we were admonished to keep our eye simple. Do not get distracted with an education or good job.
We had no money yet gave the CO $50 every time he came. A fortune for us in the 80s. Why? Because of the all important work he did and of course we knew that he got very little money for his enormous sacrifice.
Many years later, we learned that the CO was being provided with an apartment, a new car, much much better than the one we drove, and that all his health insurance needs were cared for--my family had no health insurance--by keeping our lives simple we couldn't afford any.
Yes this did start to make me a tad bit irritated. The CO seemed to have very nice suits and new polished shoes.
I did begin to wonder where the money went. I contented myself that since all monies went to further "the worldwide work" that the WTS knew best where it was needed and that new Kingdom Halls being built in Africa and other depressed places was where it was used.
I always wondered how Assemblies and Conventions could cost so so so much that they always had to ask for more money to cover expenses. Wasn't all work volunteer?
Recently I have found out just how much the WTS has in millions, due to posters on this forum. I didn't know about investments in companies that support war efforts, though. What a contradiction.
 
jaded
jaded 9 years ago

It is great posts like these that keep me coming back for more. I'm sure that there are many like me who don't post too often but really appreciate this board. Thank you and keep up the good work. I am sure that you and other regular posters are helping many to find out the real truth about the "truth".
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Watchtower-Free
Jehovah's Witnesses in Denmark targeting migrants
by Watchtower-Free 22 days ago
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126391/you-think-you-know-but-you-dont-know





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
/  





 

YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
by Terry 9 years ago 93 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20
MadTiger
MadTiger 9 years ago

Tacoma Parking-gate Scandal:
http://www.watchtowernews.org/tacomapark.htm

 To lurkers: does the above information prove the OPs point, or disprove it?
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 years ago

Terry..A question for you and the guests on your thread..Do you think the WBT$ could be a front for another organization?..One that skims the money after it is so well laundered..Maybe a government agency?..WBT$ has ties to politics and the military...OUTLAW
 
MadTiger
MadTiger 9 years ago

Whether true or not, Dan Brown or Tom Clancy should get started on it quick!!!
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 9 years ago

Great post Terry, you are absolutely spot on

The preaching work is a sham and the religion is about money; hidden money; big money.
That's what interests them most, not whether the "kingdom is preached to all nations" or not. As long as the money keeps rolling in, they are happy.
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

Did it ever occur to any of these corporate-religion pigs that Armaggedon would actually be the worst thing that could possibly happen to the WT society?
The Watchtower was busy buying buildings in the lead up to 1975!! Why why why? Why would they BUY what they could get for FREE after "Armageddon"?
They KNEW there was no Armageddon. They were simply staging a going-out-of-business fire sale to generate dollars to fund their real estate acquisitions.
It is a deeply cynical thing they did creating an End Times event like 1975 and then dismissing it as over-enthusiasm!
How many of you know they already pulled the "End of 6,000 years of human existence" once before in the very early days of their history?
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

Terry..A question for you and the guests on your thread..Do you think the WBT$ could be a front for another organization?..One that skims the money after it is so well laundered..Maybe a government agency?..WBT$ has ties to politics and the military...OUTLAW
It is to my tastes pointless to speculate without data, information, clues or a whistleblower to lead the way.
ANYTHING is possible when a lot of money is kept hidden!
 
SWALKER
SWALKER 9 years ago

Great post Terry!!!  I'm so tempted to print this off and send to a JW relative that just the other day told me how wonderful the WTS is!
(I hope all my buddies over at Politics got the point about Cheney as well!  Great illustration!)
Swalker
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 9 years ago

That money is quite well hidden. The façade is perfect, because everyone was always struggling! Good points, Terry.
That would be quite interesting to find the identity of those 300 shareholders, the real power behind the Tower...
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

Money has to work creating more money or it becomes a burden. Investments keep money busy generating more and more.
Then, the created wealth has to be kept busy too!
It is the truly rich who understand that money is like a shark and can never sleep or rest or it will die.
The layers and layers of schemes the Watchtower has developed to keep the money busy has taken the form of building and buying buildings and expanding the publishing business on an ever enlarging front. They have had to go international in a big way. They have had to bribe officials and skirt oppressive laws that find their ways peculiar.
The UN SCANDAL illustrates the fact the Watchtower has had to grease the wheel of many nations and appear normal, proactive and business savvy. They have courted the petty official and the high official with equal elan.
Does it seem rather extraordinarily peculiar that Michael Jackson was not excoriated for his misdeeds? Well, Michael Jackson is/was a huge source of revenue! Now he's broke, of course; but---he was a multi-billionaire for a long time.
No stone is left unturned in courting favor with those who own wealth and can do favors. Everybody is a potential source for them. The dying widow can turn her estate over to the Watchtower along with the shares her husband left her of any corporation that is solvent and they won't complain.
The Watchtower owns stocks, properties, interests and favors that go deep into the dark world of international finance where neither you nor I will ever peer. Yet, it is invisible because it is religion. And the poor working slob who can't retire because he doesn't have any money is sent slogging magazine subscriptions door to door like a broken down vacuum cleaner salesman as the face of the corporation dressed in polyester!
A man once told me, "You aren't wealthy unless you are making money while you sleep!".
The Watchtower is wealthy. They are a bloated bloodsucking tick attached to the arteries of millions of naive wannabe goodguys who are totally clueless that their lives are draining away and leaving them nothing but empty promises for a future that will never come.
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

http://www.nysun.com/article/43610
A peek into how Real Estate can be very profitable for non-profits!


Last month, the St. David's School sold a parcel of land it owned at 212-214 East 95th St. for $10.75 million. In Brooklyn, the Jehovah's Witnesses' Watchtower Bible & Tract Co. of New York sold a building at 89 Hicks St. to Brooklyn Law School. A few months ago it sold a 48-unit elevator apartment building for $14 million.


 
wozadummy
wozadummy 9 years ago

What a great read TERRY ....perhaps you should take note of Mad Tiger 's comments "Whether true or not, Dan Brown or Tom Clancy should get started on it quick!!!" Start writing your first book ,I'd buy a copy
 
Gregor
Gregor 9 years ago

Terry, Your such a cynic! And right on target!
 
Bryan
Bryan 9 years ago

If you only take into consideration the magazines sold to rank and file. Maybe 7 sets per member per month, times 6 million.
Cash Cow
Bryan
 
Gordy
Gordy 9 years ago

Great post Terry
Contained things I have thought and said for a long time.
Especially about what do they do with the money!
I have pointed out to JW's that after 100+ years of preaching and the millions of pieces of literature printed. Just what does the ordinary man-in -the-street know about them?
Ask most people what they know about JW's and you get basically "No blood, No Christmas or birthdays, they knock on doors"
Is that the sum of 100+ years of preaching!!
Yet the Watchtower has its members believing the rest of the world is talking about them, that ministers of other religions are scared of them.
 
_Atlas
_Atlas 9 years ago

Well Terry I got my reserves on the issue.

Let me clarify that I am in no way a WT apologetic but some pieces of the puzzle are conspicuously missing here.

Why didn’t Ray Franz come clear of the destinies of the money when he rat them out? I suspect a member of the GB will be privi to all this. Yet he hardly mentioned the issue.

If the WT sole purpose was to accumulate wealth, would that be consistent with their promoting of illegal alien type jobs for their membership? Wouldn’t they be better with the ‘buy your way to heaven’ motto that other religious institutions have adopted successfully? Keeping their members in the dark intellectually could be a plausible explanation for preventing the R&F from educating themselves but you can just as easily promote greed without education and still benefit on the results. Other religions have a better ordered ‘donation’ system that still allows them to remain under the tax exemptions and maximize their gains.

Are these men who run this organization just a greedy bunch who like to sit back and count the money while they rust away in apartment complexes in NYC while periodically flying to Zimbabwe to be the star speaker at the international convention down there? If you ask me, these men do not look like the voracious type they supposedly are. Extravagant Rutherford would be a better example of the kind of person who craves money and is quick to expend it in queer ways. Are they just being kept in check due to the new structure of the GB? Are they just employees of a larger outside structure that scrutinizes their expenses? Possibly… but it is hard to imagine a Governing Body so gluttonous yet so cohesive thru out the years with out no one coming out suing for lost income or some other kind of compensatory reclamation due to his intimate knowledge of WT economic structure. Human beings are greedy by nature.

No one in the face of evidence can deny the lengths that they will go to when protecting or trying to enhance their economic resources. It is evident that there are very few boundaries (legal or ethical) to this practice.

But all this is also consistent with a bunch of zealots trying to make the best of their assets in preparation for that huge expansion in ‘business’ that is impending since the 1800s. Like a fellow poster once said: ‘Religious businessmen protecting their religious business…’

Perhaps those 300 Shareholders are the key that we should be looking for… Are they being compensated at all for their ‘investment’?

Until some hard evidence of the final destination of the money surfaces I will remain skeptical that they are more financially oriented than religiously.

All the theories mentioned here make a lot of sense but in the absence of any evidence they should remain as theories.

Besides, we got so many other things to pin them down with…
 
Gill
Gill 9 years ago

Sounds a pretty accurate summary of the WTBTS, Terry.
I believe, as others, that the WTBTS did start as a religion, but has gradually transformed into a money making bOrganization.....and that's all that it is now! Nothing more, and nothing else. What's fascinating is that it's a money making organization with no product at all, just useless bits of paper......however, it makes excellent brainwashed slaves that happily hand over their cash!
Someone has to expose them sooner or later. Are they able to silence anyone who COULD expose them for what they really are?
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago


Until some hard evidence of the final destination of the money surfaces I will remain skeptical that they are more financially oriented than religiously.

All the theories mentioned here make a lot of sense but in the absence of any evidence they should remain as theories.
The question remains. Why bother investing money? Why bother buying buildings and selling them for profit? What good is the money when Armageddon IS ANY DAY NOW?? Wink wink, nudge nudge.
You see? There is a gross insult to the intelligence in this dissonant fact. Either the Watchtower believes what it is preaching or it doesn't. The financial activity tells us it DOESN'T.
As far as how these men at the top live or don't live----what information are any of us privvy to? And that is my point. By remaining largely anonymous they do not make themselves targets like Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, etc. whose every movement is tracked by the media. The Watchtower gang has found a better way; built a better mousetrap.
The Mega-Church is built around a central person who has charisma. C.T. Russell was such a man. When he died the entire sum of his life's work was in a tailspin. J.F.Rutherford hijacked the religion and replaced C.T.Russell with himself as the central charismatic figure. But, he was unlikeable! Whereas Russell used persuasion and gimmicky charts and lovely prose to stir up interest; Rutheford made the rank and file into contrarians who were the opposite of every person who ever walked in the front door of a church. He made the rank and file the object of media attention and not himself! The Joe Blow JW got the attention for letting their young son die of a needed blood transfusion. JW kids got heckled and despised for not standing and saluting the flag or saying the Pledge or celebrating Christmas. The cart was placed before the horse, so to speak.
By not following the example of Christendom's churches a pattern was set for the more business oriented types to run the Organization and make it into something self-sustaining and even profitable in a different way.
Nathan Knorr was an organizer. He shaped up the rank and file and let Fred Franz run loose with the religious end of it.
By the time Knorr was no longer the tip of the pyramid even Fred Franzy couldn't derail the new machine.
As far as WHY Ray Franz did not blow the whistle on the finances of the Watchtower think about this. Franz received at least one large cash payment from the Society when he left. He left on bad terms, yet, he was paid.
There seem to me to be three possibilities.
1.Franz did not delve into the finances of the Watchtower Society because he was out of the financial loop.
2.Franz deliberately avoided implicating himself as a Governing Body member in what would become huge scandals (thus shooting himself in the foot for being a part of it.)
3.Franz was promised money for the rest of his life if he would keep silent about the money.
But, such speculations are silly and easily lead to all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories. I don't go there. It doesn't matter to me who did what to who and why.
All I know is that it is mighty mysterious there was absolutely NO MENTION of where the money goes by a man who sat in the room with top guys. He had every reason to say at least "something" nice/awful about the money if he were going to reveal ALL. But, he remains silent on the one issue that could drag the LAW into the boardroom. Doctrines (true or false) are not a concern of the authorities who police financial malefeasance. So, Franz had a free ride in that department.
Until we know where the millions (if not billions) are buried; we know nothing about what the Watchtower Society really is.
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

Terry,
I believe that if the aquiring of money were the motive for the WTS it would be a much easier beast to bring to heel. My experience is that the GB and those in 'higher office' strongly believe the ideology that the WTS stands for. They believe it as strongly as you believed it when at your most fervent. This is what makes them so difficult to deal with as an Organization, and this is why Raymond Franz refers to the GB in 'Crisis Of Conscience', as 'victims of victims'. Ted Jaracz for example, refuses to accept any of the personal 'donations' that are sent his way and either returns them or places them in the coffers.
The aquisition of buildings, and now the selling of many of these buildings are viewed by the WTS as a tool to enable them to 'do the will of God'. I do not believe this is about money with the WTS, I wish it were!
The WTS do have personnel in the Bethel homes who specialize in investment in equities and other vehicles for safeguarding its investments. This frankly seems to me to be prudent for a large Organization that costs millions each year to run. I know some of these 'investors' have made a lot of money for some of the Bethel staff whose portfolios are handed to them. I know of a Branch co-ordinator who has for many years refused the monthly stipend that he and his wife are entitled to as he no longer needs the cash, now being financially independent.
I think that the ideology of the WTS is far more dangerous than its wealth, but it is this wealth that allows it to propagate and grow its poison.
HS
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

My mother in law, who knows very little of the JW religion, told me it sounded like they were a front for the mafia.----But yes the questions still remain, #1-where is the money going? and #2-Who are the 300 shareholders? I remember reading here that the WT Society said these 300 shareholders are not JW's. Imagine a billion dollar religious corporation controlled by people who arent even believers in it. It makes you wonder just who is pulling the strings behind the WT Society?
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

Terry - You and I rarely see eye-to-eye [This is actually a good thing as it stimulates thought]. But in this matter I am 100% in agreement.
Primarily in the real estate market they are engaged. They 'own' technically virtually all KH's in the US as I understand it. Then they use the local witnesses to pay for the financing of repairs and new halls, with money they 'borrow' from Brooklyn, repay to Brooklyn, then deed the property in the end to Brooklyn. Local elders administrate the property legally, but the ownership is really one of the WTS corporations. Someone please correct me if wrong.
Your post is right on.
The message is cloudy and unclear and confusing, because the message is unneeded. It keeps dubs busy and active and interested and contributing to upkeep of Brooklyn property. Free ownership, free maintenance, taxes and insurance paid for them. All they need to do is keep the sheep they have to maintain the wealth.
Jeff
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
the door to door work is a sham.. the central activity of the watchtower bible and tract society is not spreading their so-called "messege" about the kingdom of jehovah established in the heavens in 1914. that's a load of propaganda.. the door to door activity is feckless in producing converts.
in fact, it is an immense failure of mammoth proportions!.
but, it is a diversion.



Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Watchtower-Free
Jehovah's Witnesses in Denmark targeting migrants
by Watchtower-Free 22 days ago
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126391/you-think-you-know-but-you-dont-know?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
/  





 

YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
by Terry 9 years ago 93 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

I am going to shock everyone by coming down on the side of Hillary_Step. I am also dubious that the WTS is controlled by the "mafia", the KKK, or AlQueida. I think they are a train wreck to happen, and under the misdirected control of their own delusions.
With one or two reservations, of course!
From what I have seen, indeed, most of the higher-ups fully believe the indoctrination. They are every bit as brainwashed as their janitor pioneers. For most of them, the big money is just a natural outcome of "doing the work of the lord". I think that by and large, they are much more overcome with their perceived power and position than with the amount of wealth they can get from the society.
However, there have been notable exceptions. I have seen amazing amounts of hypocrisy (practically up to the level of Jim and TammyFay) on the part of a number of the watchtower leaders. The obvious clear example was Rutherford. I will submit to you that Knorr was also such a "christian businessman". Who can forget the obvious "lifestyle challenged" Greenlees?
I find it hard to believe that such a cynical leadership is not fully aware of the vast amounts of money that they are building up.
I would also like to say that I find offensive the idea that Ray Franz (or any of the other dissenters of the 1980 era) "sold out" in any way, shape, or form. From what I knew of Ray and the others in those days, he was a decent and honest man who followed his true "conscience". I know for a fact that Ed Dunlap knew every bit as much of the inner workings of WTS as Ray, and he was sent packing with absolutely nothing in his old age - depending on his brother and others of us to help him rebuild life.
Sick bastards, yes. Controlled by the sinister Illuminati or some alien from the planet Zeno, no.
Just my own word on it,
James
 
Green Chille
Green Chille 9 years ago

I haven't read every message so if this link has been posted please forgive.
All About Money: http://www.watchtowernews.org/tacomapark.htm
 
jstalin
jstalin 9 years ago

It's a little surprising to me that a financial statement has never leaked out of Bethel. Although I think that it's unlikely that the Watchtower is skimming money or engaging in any illegal accounting practices, it would be interesting to see how they spend their money. I think it's most probable that the organization isn't run to well.
 
Stealth
Stealth 9 years ago

The WT not registering as a religeous organization for years in Mexico so they could retain their property was proof enough for me what the priority of the WTB$ is.
The religion took a back seat to the almighty $.
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

JStalin,
It's a little surprising to me that a financial statement has never leaked out of Bethel.
Well, they have.
The accounts of the WTS & IBSA are a matter of public record. A very kind XJW faxes me a copy each year.
Best regards - HS
 
jstalin
jstalin 9 years ago

The accounts of the WTS & IBSA are a matter of public record. A very kind XJW faxes me a copy each year.
Care to share? What accounts are included? Balance sheet, income statement, cash flows?
 
Confession
Confession 9 years ago

I too am in agreement with Hilary & James Woods. I acknowledge that the WTS intentionally tries to keep the full range of their teachings quiet, but I think that is primarily because they know such would bring poor publicity upon them. They prefer a "timed-release" of their "whole range of Bible teachings" so that you are (they hope) already baptized before you figure out the bizarre stuff.
Didn't really believe Armageddon was coming? Terry's points are well-taken, but I don't believe that either. The fact that they were still buying property on or around 1975 does not necessarily prove this. I am sure many were concerned that it might not happen--and that they'd better be prepared in the event it didn't.
I've started threads in the past that delved into whether or not the Governing Body or others in high-ranking positions really believe or are intentionally part of a great deception. I am sure there are some who don't really believe it and some who are not certain. But I submit that the majority fully believe they are playing a part in the spirit-directed management of God's interests on this planet. Money? It's easy to rationalize the virtue in making, maximizing and preserving money in any endeavor. And especially so when you're convinced you are allied with God's sole channel of communication.
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

JStalin,
If you search my topic posts I posted all the details for the IBSA Accounts for 2004. The US accounts have also been posted the Board last year.
Cheers - HS
 
forsharry
forsharry 9 years ago

well God-Bless Scientology then!
Wait a minute...this isn't scientology's tactics? It's Jehovah's Witnesses?
Well hrm...that's...interesting.
:wink:
 
orangefatcat
orangefatcat 9 years ago

This has indeed been an interesting post. Terry you are right on. I firmly believe the bowels of the WTBS are very corrupt.
One of the biggest shams in the day of Rutherford was the building of Beth Sarim and he tried to convince the witnesses that this was an opulent home being built for the "ancient worthies", from Biblical days, as they called then. This all backfired,as we all know
 What a farce, the Society had so much egg on their faces it would have made enough Omelettes for everyone around the world. This home was the lap of luxury, just as everything that is owned by the WTBTS. even today. Lush and plush..
(They must have been a laughing stalk by many persons when what they expected the end but still they owned the best of the best. Fancy big cars with V8 engines, swimming pools gyms, tennis courts, apartments furnished, monies given to the CO, and DO and GB on the sly. The clothes they own, either given them or bought for them.
Do you think for one moment that the Society would allow the Bethel's elite to get furniture provied by the Salvation Army or their clothing for that matter from a second hand store? No never not ever. Only the best of the best.
Lets giggle all the way to Holt Renfrews or 5th Ave ,. stores of delight. Or how about Rodeo Drive. Sacks or Any speciality store or establishment that exists and even dinning in the finest resturants around the world in any town or city.


And then these So called Assembly Halls that were built for districts but the money was borrowed from the Society and brothers made personal promises as to how much they would pay the society every month. Every cong, made these commitments. Even the same as KHs and then when a two day assembly is held, there are thousands of thousands of dollars needed to be paid to cover the cost of what I have no idea. They stopped serving meals years ago, So there is no cost for food. So where do all the donations go to. To fill the Wts coffers thats where.
Or they may be terrified that so many people are sueing them that they have to get the money somewhere to pay for those losses. Whoses pockets is that coming from? Theirs or you
Like I said before, how can you trust the WTS in any way when they try to justify their fornication with the image of the wildbeast.?.
Orangefatcat.
 
Golf
Golf 9 years ago

Very good post Terry. Question, Would Jesus in this day and age been INCORPORATED?

Golf
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Good point Golf ! Churches arent required to incorporate, but most do. Once a church incorporates they are subject to much more rules and their freedom of speech is compromised. There are some churches who oppose incorporation because it makes the church a ward of the state. An incorporated church can not get involved in politics, can not endorse a candidate, can not do alot of things. Actually a tax exempt incorporated church is not supposed to preach against public policy. If a church speaks out against the war or government in general, they could be fined, but seldom are.
 
Justice-One
Justice-One 9 years ago



Hardly a soul alive can give a coherent recounting of JW's beliefs.
And with all the "new light" the above includes the Rank And File.
 
ICBehindtheCurtain
ICBehindtheCurtain 9 years ago

Excellent thread Terry! I've often wondered about this. When talking to my mom who is a regular pioneer for quite a few years, I asked her how many people she has brought into this religion, her answer "0" none, nada, they either moved away, or just lost interest. I totally agree, the preaching mostly helps them stay busy. And boy would I love to know where the money is going!

IC
 
bobld
bobld 9 years ago

Very good post.They truely are a rich corporation.Like any corporation they have down sized to max their profits ie layoffs at Bethels,shut down farms..imagine they can't produce their own food cheaply.Look at the cash they receive via Insurance,Bank Accounts,Real Estate Wills and Trusts,etc,etc If 6000 Willed their Estate of $1million,thats $6billion and 3 million give $1thousand that another $3 billion plus look at their grab at conventions.All their request for money at congregation meeting when they annouce their resolutions ever 6 months.I am not sure why they request for a vote and how many are in attendance.Maybe something to do with the law of the land.Take their Real Estate ..Take an Assembly Hall of 10 thousand SQ.FT.@ $100 per sq.ft.is $1 million that low.Look at all the Real Estate they have.The mags/book placement is pennies,but like they say, take care of the pennies and the dollars will look after themselves.I do not know what they do with all the money,but they sure are RICH,RICH.They have to push R&F for new suckers to hand over their money and the scheme has been working very good for them.Look, this Corporation has been successful for over a hundred years of brain washing people into their believe system.Some of us can see their scheme but can't get out because of family.I know this post is to long but it's therapy.
bobld
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

But I submit that the majority fully believe they are playing a part in the spirit-directed management of God's interests on this planet.
Well, not to go to "psychology" on you, but; any old thought can be a "belief". It is what we act on that truly describes what is alive in our thinking. The active belief is most telling in demonstrating our convictions.
For example, think of the difference between REFUSING TO DO and ACTIVELY DOING. The structure of Jehovah's Witnesses idealogy lies in what they DON'T DO. They REFRAIN. That is a passive demonstration of belief.
The only ACTIVE demonstration of a JW's belief is going door to door. In order to go door to door, the publisher has to refrain from OTHER ACTIVITIES which take up the same time. A choice is made which is most important. Golf, for instance, or door to door. Watching football on TV or door to door.
It would never be acceptable for a brother to SAY his faith was strong if he did OTHER THINGS rather than door to door work. The elders would consider him spiritually sick if he claimed to believe preaching is most important if his own activity was demonstrating a desire to spend the weekend working overtime, for example, to earn money to buy a boat for fishing on the lake. You see what I mean? Belief would have to match the actual TIME SPENT.
So too for the Watchtower governors and bigwigs at the top.
The seeking of investments, determining what buildings are viable and entering negotiations for purchase of them is ALIVE with purpose and demonstrates long term planning, strategy and a plan that devolves into moving large sums of money around for profit. THAT IS ACTIVE! Actively building wealth while claiming the end is imminent is so dissonant that it screams : PHONEY BELIEF.
Nobody gets rich passively.
Jesus told the rich man to SELL ALL HIS BELONGINGS and to join his ranks. The rich man was so disappointed he went away. Does this sound like belief? Or, does it sound like conflict?
Jesus preached that we should live each day as though it were our last. If Jesus and the holy spirit were telling us the End was up ahead in the very near future---would we be working on our summer cabin in Yosemite? How much belief would we be demonstrating if we went about planning, purchasing and building that cabin if AT THE SAME TIME we were urging our friends, family and neighbors to get right with God and start preaching the end??
You see the disconnect there?
What the Watchtower elite preach does not match what the ACTUALLY DO THEMSELVES. That sends me a very strong signal that all is not what it appears.
It may signal nothing to you.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

As a charity aren't they forced to show $0 profit? Presumably there is a business part of the organisation that does pay taxes etc..?
 
_Atlas
_Atlas 9 years ago

What the Watchtower elite preach does not match what the ACTUALLY DO THEMSELVES. That sends me a very strong signal that all is not what it appears.
I agree that it simply does not make sense.
It does not make sense that they keep buying property, that they do not use their resources to fund special interest programs, that they need shareholders and investors to lend them money… specially that there is a huge blackhole over their financial status.

It does not make sense that they do not use the advantages of television, the internet, radio or many other technological inventions that will help spread their message effectively…

Yet I do not think that they preaching one way and acting in another actually validates anything. They have way too many conundrums in their theology. They are notorious for their double standards on many issues. Usually these double standards apply to the individuals but not to the organizational procedures.

The planning and careful preparation for the financial future of the org IMHO is another of those famous and strangely ambivalent principles they abide by… the organization carefully plans for the future while the individual is told not to. In fact individuals are encouraged to live for today and only today since tomorrow is not certain.

But is that a sure sign that these men are motivated by something else than pure religious stupor?

Also one has to take into account that many of these men were actually around for the 1930s, 1940s, 1980s and specifically 1975. So I guess they know better than to put all their eggs on one basket… they personally have felt the disappointment of failed dates.
These men have lived modest lives preaching on the far reaches of the world for decades before they are selected to be part of the GB. During those days IMHO they become company men rather than avid capitalists. Company men so brainwashed that they are capable of the worst rationalizations humans are capable of.

Still the fact that although a lot of help is needed to run a billionaire organization and so far no one has been able to pinpoint the supposedly ulterior motives of the WT finances, clashes with my gut wrenching feeling that something is askew with their motivations.
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 9 years ago

Can somebody explain who is personally benefiting from the collection of these monies?
Most posters on this thread seem to believe that unknown and unnamed persons within the WTS, are collecting and hoarding vast sums of money, for some purpose, not yet defined. Is anyone willing to at least try to define the motive for doing so?
While the GB may be in a position to benefit from this cash if it were their desire to do so, I believe that they are more infatuated with the power of feeling that they are in God's right hand than with the avarice that comes with coin. It seems to me that most members of the GB, if not all, are actually as financially well off as Raymond Franz when he was forced to leave Brookyln. He had a few thousands dollars in his account, and later a stipend of $10,000 for his years of service. Ed Dunlap, registrar for Gilead candidates was turfed out of Brooklyn in his late 60's, penniless, and took up the career he left behind decades earlier, as a paperhanger. Somebody mentioned Greenlees earlier, well, he ended up his days living off a Special Pioneer allowance.
I do not believe money motivates those in the higher echelons of the WTS. As I have noted above, they are actually a far greater danger in that their ideology feeds their motives, and their tool for growing and achieving this ideology is money, real estate etc. Though the face of the WTS seems more sinister and conspiratorial on the surface, this is just the lumbering gait of a very old and very large corporate organization. Remember, the WTS can count itself among some of the oldest businesses in the US and have not had much competition at what they do best. Many of its methods are subsequently dinosaurial in concept.
HS
 
Confession
Confession 9 years ago

The seeking of investments, determining what buildings are viable and entering negotiations for purchase of them is ALIVE with purpose and demonstrates long term planning, strategy and a plan that devolves into moving large sums of money around for profit. THAT IS ACTIVE! Actively building wealth while claiming the end is imminent is so dissonant that it screams : PHONEY BELIEF.
The points you make are strong, but I don't think your conclusion is the only (or even the most valid) one. I'm certainly willing to believe that it could be the case. But there's just too much information that what Hilary says is true...
I believe that they are more infatuated with the power of feeling that they are in God's right hand than with the avarice that comes with coin.
Yes, it's true that their actions can be said to conflict with their words, but as Atlas writes...
They are notorious for their double standards on many issues. Usually these double standards apply to the individuals but not to the organizational procedures.
The WTS used to teach that after Armageddon, "God's Organization" would be prepared. They bragged about their self-sufficiency at Bethel and Watchtower Farms. I don't think they believed, post-Armageddon, they would all put on dreamy smiles and saunter off into one of their famous paradise scenes. Jehovah would spare their buildings so that Brooklyn would be the eathly command center from which the planet's restoration would be administered. They might have considered it prudent to have as much ready prior to Armageddon as possible.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
the door to door work is a sham.. the central activity of the watchtower bible and tract society is not spreading their so-called "messege" about the kingdom of jehovah established in the heavens in 1914. that's a load of propaganda.. the door to door activity is feckless in producing converts.
in fact, it is an immense failure of mammoth proportions!.
but, it is a diversion.



Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Watchtower-Free
Jehovah's Witnesses in Denmark targeting migrants
by Watchtower-Free 22 days ago
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126391/you-think-you-know-but-you-dont-know?page=3&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
/  





 

YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
by Terry 9 years ago 93 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20
moomanchu
moomanchu 9 years ago

Why does the Jehovah witness organization even have printing operations???
Why don't they just use "Worldy" publishing companies?
Do any other religions have huge publishing businesses?
It doesn't smell right.
 
orangefatcat
orangefatcat 9 years ago

As the previous poster mentioned that the Society has painted post Armaggedon as some dreamy place where the Society would direct the so called paradise. They have bamboozled the witnesses into submission or rather supression, The WTS proclaims that N. W. will be theocratically run as it is being done today.( coughing). LOOK OUT WITNESSES!!
 Oh dear, No more wealth!! as there will be no need for money. Oh gee! what will we do? No more goodies. and no more power control.
They also say that everything in this system will be destroyed. How illogical and unreasonably does that sound. Does it make sense that God would destroy all the telecommunications and all the wealth of this will world will mean nothing to them? I hardly believe that. The Org. is so money hungry and so rigid with its followers I can't see an organization. all I see is dellusional people. Confused and dazed..
Just how will the society keeps its people in order? Disfellowship them.?? That is the only thing this organization holds over the witnesses today is. DISFELLOWSHIPPING, Oh no we can't do that, there will be no bad witnesses.
I predict if paradise exists as protrayed by the WTS GB comes to be, then all I see is chaos, not organization. How obedient will people want to be when they see blood as high as a horse bridle as the bible says.? Or millions and millions of dead people. Lets scare them into obediance?
I can't understand how I allowed my self to stay a witness when I was old enough to leave. Fear more than likely. But it was the brainwashing and the harsh reality that you will lose everyone who means anything to you. They will destroy all that was perfectly set up by God orginally "the family".
One step at a time the power hungry witnesses have controled the lives of its followers. It seems that wealth controls the masses.
I abhor WTS for what they have done to so many wonderful persons in their oppressive organization..
Let see them burn in the lake of fire (Gehanna) and never again exist to destroy good people. They WTS will be in that lake where the devil and demons already exist.
Orangefatcat
 
jam
jam 9 years ago

IN THE EARLY 70.s WHILE DOING STREET WORK IN FRONT OF THE DOUGHNUT SHOP, A WINE-O TOLD ME , YOUNG MAN WHY ARE YOU STANDING HERE PESTERING PEOPLE WITH THOSE MAGAZINES. DO YOU REALIZE THE MONEY YOU RECEVIE IS MAKING SOMEONE RICH. HE WAS A DRUNK BUT VERY INTELLIGENT. I REMERBER THIS BECAUSE HE TOLD ME, THER ARE MEN AT WT. HEAD OFFICE THAT ARE BECOMING VERY WEALTH BECAUSE OF FOOLS LIKE YOU. GUESS WHAT MY RESPONSE WAS, YES I AM A FOOL FOR JEHOVAH. AND THEN HE TOLD ME GIVE THE MONEY TO HIM , HE WOULD USE IT WISELY. IF I HAD KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT I KNOW TODAY WE BOTH COULD HAVE SHARED THAT BOTTLE OF WINE.
 
jayhawk1
jayhawk1 9 years ago

Love makes the world go 'round, but money greases the hub.
Watchtower is the same way. Their ideals are based on a perverted version of love, but it is the exaulted positions that drive it. For the GB and any other person of rank, it is not so much about money, although everything they want is provided (circuit overseers included), it is about the position.
 
thecarpenter
thecarpenter 9 years ago

Interesting theory terry but I have to agree with hillary. I don't see the GB personally benefitting from the monies except in extending their fanatical reach to all parts of the globe. I truly believe they are bit misguided and victums of their own belief system. I have pictures of fred franz and ganges when they were alive, they weren't exactly living in opulence in bethel.
brofranzandblurryfriends.jpg
ganges.jpg
 
Justice-One
Justice-One 9 years ago

Caption to last photo...."Damm I wish he would leave, that Viaggra is kicking in."
 
mcsemike
mcsemike 9 years ago

I will at least give the GB this much, they don't live in luxury. Aside from Rutherford's San Diego "resurrection time machine" (walk through the front door dead, come out the back door as "David") I don't see many yachts and expensive vacations, unless I've missed something. They do buy quality items. I visited Bethel once and gave a small piano concert in the lobby. The piano was a good one.
I don't see the purpose of expanding any building projects. Isn't the end close? Why waste the money. Isn't this the reason they told us not to go to college, so "Armageddon wouldn't catch you in your senior year"? Why would they expect that all their current building will survive Armageddon or any social conflicts before?
The preaching work is a joke. How many millions of hours are spent to make a convert? Not counting family? Why aren't they on the internet with email, discussion groups, online Bible studies, etc. Why no TV commercials? They used to have a radio station on Staten Island, I saw it myself. How will they reach Bangladesh and India? Aren't those people just as worthy to be saved? Why repeatedly cover the same blocks in town here in the US when it's plain that no one wants them to visit? How many of us found converts door to door? I wasn't found that way.
Well, I don't have 3 hours to ask more questions, so I'll leave it at that. My best to all. Happy New Year.
 
Justice-One
Justice-One 9 years ago

For many it is about power. The GB are worshiped by millions of people worldwide. It must be a HUGE power trip to control so many peoples lives. And who knows just how much money these folks have squirled away someplace. But one thing is for sure, they are wanting for NOTHING.
 
Anitar
Anitar 9 years ago

Hi Jeff, Happy New Year!
Terry, let me say, magnificent post. I have been trying to develop the perfect five minute summary of the Watchtower for years that is direct to the point, undeniable to a Jehovah Witness, and yet simple enough for a total stranger to understand.
I do have one observation to point out however. You mentioned that other religions have to disclose their finances in order to justify keeping their clergy or ministers living in luxury. I don't believe this is the case with the majority of ministers. Yes there are some wealthy bishops, but you might consider that certain religions are associated with certain social classes. For example, many upper class people prefer Protestant or Episcopal faiths, the middle classes tend to be Catholic or Lutheran, while the lower classes are Baptist or Methodist. I don't mean to insult you or anyone else, nor do I want to generalize anyone. Of course, we are all individuals. I merely speak from a sociological point of view.
As you stated earlier, it's hard to follow the financial status of the Watchtower. If a Jehovah Witness is rich, they probably spend and invest all of their money and resources in the organizaton. Most of the rank and file are poor, in many more ways than one. I'd just like to say that I'm not an expert on other religions, but all of the priests I have met while I have been a Catholic have all been poor, and very charitable and hardworking in the community.
Anitar
 
Anitar
Anitar 9 years ago

Hey Mike, I didn't forget you...
Happy New Year
Take care of yourself.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 9 years ago

Stimulating thread : I must come in with Hilary Step and others who present the GB as misguided & deluded rather than criminal .
I do not think that the WTS is "all about money", if it were they could do things which would maximise their income. The non donation arrangement for literature has surely not increased their income.
There are certainly many questions to be asked, but I believe it is more about power and the maintenance of the status quo than gaining more money.
Nb The WTS does publish accounts
Somebody asked why Michael Jackson was not publicly disowned? I have anecdotal reports, from a sister with contact in California, that he was d/f'd many years before the abuse scandal broke . They never publicly comment about people.
They have denied any involvement with Rand Cam
 
KAYTEE
KAYTEE 9 years ago

Terry
Very good thread - this is something that we have often discussed.
We do hope that these financial advisors/experts, are "spiritually qualified" before they are given such priviledges, just as the rest of the rank and file were/are.
Assuming that accounts are filed. These accounts may not disclose the names of the shareholders, but they should prove that the money is either in the Bank Accounts and other Investments or in Assets. Perhaps the "Investments" heading on the Balance Sheet, should be where the search starts?
KT and Twinkletoes
 
Blueblades
Blueblades 9 years ago

What I do KNOW is I just want my share of all the donations I gave to the Watchtower Society for 32 years under false pretenses. That I KNOW will never happen. They promised me a better life, an everlasting one, in perfect health and happiness. That I KNOW will never happen. If I KNEW then what I KNOW now ,then, I would of KNEW then what I KNOW now. I KNOW that I will never get back what I lost financially slaving for the Watchtower for those 32 years. I don't think I KNOW these things, I KNOW that I KNOW these things.
Blueblades ( who should of KNOWN better ) "The CARROT" got me.
 
gumby
gumby 9 years ago

the GB as misguided & deluded rather than criminal .
I'm also of this belief.
If one could point a finger at anyone on the governing body who has a selfish motive.....other than prominence...I'd like to see it. What is scary is the thought that only one man on the governing body ,R.Franz, had the balls to call it as he saw it. When I go to the hall and see faces that have been there 15-20 years, it's depressing to come to realise that more people than not have no thinking ability of their own. It's depressing to know that regardless of the exposer the witnesses have that shows up their true colors.......most will continue to turn a deaf ear to it.
Gumsad
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

When I go to the hall and see faces that have been there 15-20 years, it's depressing to come to realise that more people than not have no thinking ability of their own. It's depressing to know that regardless of the exposer the witnesses have that shows up their true colors.......most will continue to turn a deaf ear to it.
Gumsad
I visualize the Kingdom Hall as the passenger cabin on an airplane thousands of feet in the sky with a pilot who is asleep (or dead) and the jet is flying on automatic pilot.
There is no way for anybody to know (or fear) their fate because everything seems to be going along smoothly.
The problem with Jehovah's Witnesses is that there IS NO LANDING for them. They simply must run out of fuel.
Ironically, the (dead/sleeping) pilot has billions of dollars in escrow that he can't ever use.
The passengers are all making their plans for what they'll do after they land.
The momentum is tragic.
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

If a Jehovah Witness is rich, they probably spend and invest all of their money and resources in the organizaton. Most of the rank and file are poor,
Wealthy people in the Kingdom hall (few as they are) are converts. You can't become rich wasting your time in field service, attending meetings, conducting bible studies and pleasing the elders.
The rest are "poor" because they are not allowed to plan (and work) for their future properly and attend to business in a way advantageous to themselves or their offspring.
As Dr.Phil says, "this is a kill and eat world." In other words, you don't get anything unless you make it happen for yourself.
The Jehovah's Witnesses I know and have known have had their hands tied as far as advancing themselves if they remain in good standing. If they came in to the Organization with anything of an asset or wealth it was all done BEFORE they came in.
All the millions/billions that has accumulated by the Watchtower Society is there because there is a huge engine driving the wealth: UNPAID labor! In a religion you can get away with this chronic injustice.
T
 
gumby
gumby 9 years ago

I just want you to know Terry...I STILL think you have pretty boobs for a guy
Gumby
 
James King
James King 9 years ago

Well done! You are so right. Keep on protesting and informing.
 
mcsemike
mcsemike 9 years ago

Anitar: Happy New Year to you too. Keep up the good work.
 
ZEN
ZEN 9 years ago

Yeah Terry, great job!!! My thoughts exactly.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
the door to door work is a sham.. the central activity of the watchtower bible and tract society is not spreading their so-called "messege" about the kingdom of jehovah established in the heavens in 1914. that's a load of propaganda.. the door to door activity is feckless in producing converts.
in fact, it is an immense failure of mammoth proportions!.
but, it is a diversion.



Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Watchtower-Free
Jehovah's Witnesses in Denmark targeting migrants
by Watchtower-Free 22 days ago
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126391/you-think-you-know-but-you-dont-know?page=4&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
/  





 

YOU "THINK" YOU KNOW.....BUT...YOU DON'T KNOW!!
by Terry 9 years ago 93 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
5
10
20
mcsemike
mcsemike 9 years ago

No matter how they live, I still wish they would open some soup kitchens and do more charity work. They offer the literature, but people can't pay their bills or get food using the books.
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

No matter how they live, I still wish they would open some soup kitchens and do more charity work. They offer the literature, but people can't pay their bills or get food using the books.
In all the years I was an active JW nobody ever really brought the subject of charity to my attention. I wonder how I would have responded to the charge that Jehovah's Witnesses are uncharitable and unfeeling when it comes to victims who are non-Jw's?
I can vaguely remember being imbued with a sense of personal contempt for mainstream charity by the JW's around me. They'd carp about how administrative costs ate up the funds given rather than going to the needy. However, nobody ever mentioned that Jehovah's Witnesses could do a better job!
Other religions were mocked in every way imaginable and never praised for the good they do in feeding the poor, housing the homeless, educating the ignorant, providing for orphans and widows and building an infrastructure of clinics, hospitals, schools and colleges to repair the ravages of social erosion. Never!
Thinking back on my years as a JW I realize now that there is no tangible good done by the JW's anywhere. They are an organization of megalomaniacs bragging about how loving they are, how superior in knowledge and pure in heart they are. Utterly lacking in a generous spirit of giving, volunteerism and charity these megalomaniacs distribute propaganda containing rancid ravings of troubled minds to the unwary householder and then, sit back with a complacent satisfaction that they properly served mankind!!
HUBRIS!!
 
done4good
done4good 9 years ago


Terry,
I believe that if the aquiring of money were the motive for the WTS it would be a much easier beast to bring to heel. My experience is that the GB and those in 'higher office' strongly believe the ideology that the WTS stands for. They believe it as strongly as you believed it when at your most fervent. This is what makes them so difficult to deal with as an Organization, and this is why Raymond Franz refers to the GB in 'Crisis Of Conscience', as 'victims of victims'. Ted Jaracz for example, refuses to accept any of the personal 'donations' that are sent his way and either returns them or places them in the coffers.
The aquisition of buildings, and now the selling of many of these buildings are viewed by the WTS as a tool to enable them to 'do the will of God'. I do not believe this is about money with the WTS, I wish it were!
The WTS do have personnel in the Bethel homes who specialize in investment in equities and other vehicles for safeguarding its investments. This frankly seems to me to be prudent for a large Organization that costs millions each year to run. I know some of these 'investors' have made a lot of money for some of the Bethel staff whose portfolios are handed to them. I know of a Branch co-ordinator who has for many years refused the monthly stipend that he and his wife are entitled to as he no longer needs the cash, now being financially independent.
I think that the ideology of the WTS is far more dangerous than its wealth, but it is this wealth that allows it to propagate and grow its poison.
HS
I haven't read beyond Hillary's post yet, as I didn't want to loose my thought, but she makes a very valid point. What the WT does is far more insideous, BECAUSE they believe in what they are doing, with sincerity. This makes it very easy for them, to not only hoarde money, but it is also, what makes them entirely aloof when it comes to dealing with the r&f in general. Think about this, if they BELIEVE they are the one and only true religion, they can just about justify any behavior that appears to support the religion's goals, including securing real estate, investing in defense companies, etc. Remember, it's THEOCRATIC WARFARE...
j
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

Think about this, if they BELIEVE they are the one and only true religion, they can just about justify any behavior that appears to support the religion's goals, including securing real estate, investing in defense companies, etc. Remember, it's THEOCRATIC WARFARE...
j
This pretty much does violence to the Jesus-is-the-model behavior expected of Christians.
Jesus was all about hands on, face-to-face, in the moment, one on one, personal ministry to persons in need.
Healing is tangible. Resurrecting is tangible. Feeding is tangible. Sharp contrast can be drawn between what Jesus spent his time doing and what JW's spend their time doing.
Everything in JW theology has been pushed into the dark recesses of metaphorical and emblematic hocus-pocus.
Jesus invested in humanity with the entire treasure of his being. JW's invest their time and obedience in manmade shadowpuppetry selling worthless screeds.
Astonishing how black and white it is.
 
done4good
done4good 9 years ago

I agree completely, Terry. It really is obvious to us now, but at one time we were deluded also. The men in charge are so disconnected from reality that they don't SEE what's wrong with what they are doing. We can basically mutiply how we thought, (when in the WT), by 1000 to maybe get some grasp of how the GB thinks. Very sick.
j
 
icocer
icocer 9 years ago

bookmarking, for later viewing.
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 9 years ago

Great
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 9 years ago

The king keeps comtrol of his slaves and the power that he has obtained, by the vertue of information given.
If the general public was to be taught in a step by step process how the WTS organization came to be from it's very begining to present day, they would probably never walk in to a
kingdom hall. So the key aspect of the culling is the information and how and when it is put forth.
As I've posted before on another topic just how dangerous the inter-net is seen by the WTS. the damaging info. here and elsewhere on the net has got them nervously shaking in their
boots ! Proof of this is given by the way they've had their legal department shut down web sites by threating law suits to the owners of those sites.
So yes they are closely monitering web sites including this one !
Possibly one can only surmise that the tract that they put out last summer, stating that all false religion was about to collapse was due to a
emotional kickback in responce to whats been put forth on the net.
Will have to wait and see what their next action is going to be.
Good work Terry and everyone who've posted here.................cheers
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

So yes they are closely monitering web sites including this one !
I wonder if the Society even has Internet service!! It might well be considered waaaay tooo dangerous even for the strongest of the lot of them.
Human curiousity is innate.
I know I sure would have spent a lot of time on Apostate sites if there had been an Internet back then.
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 9 years ago

It's all very bad press Terry, it's all information they don't want anybody seeing, those interested in them or those already in the faith. I personally know of a few jw's that left the org.
based primarily on info they found on the net. It does damage to their credibility and weakens their stature as the one and only true religion on earth.
There is a lot of Googling going on right now !
 
lapazman
lapazman 9 years ago

Has anyone found publicly filed reports on stock holdings, investments. I have always wondered about what they do with the cash. Are 501c corp tax returns public? thanks
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 9 years ago

A couple of years back someone who was working at bethel posted a copy of a yearly finacial statement from their New York headquaters and it showed some of their assets were in
mutual funds. There has been rumours been spread around that they have an investment in a company called Ram Corp. Industries, but I've personally have not seen any legal
documents to verify this. That finacial statement I saw was dated 1997 and it did look legitiment in apearence. It was quarterized with a list of receivables and donations and expenditures
to bring them an outstanding balance of @ 940,000,000.00 , but I would assume that would be globally. Now here we are ten years latter and I know quite certaintly that they sold at least two
of their Brooklyn buildings in New York for a tune of 250 mil. or better, so what their net worth now is one can only guess. That sale by the way was writen by an journalist and posted up on
another web site. He was specifically covering the Dumbo area of Brooklyn and what recent changes that had taken place there............
 
TMS
TMS 9 years ago

Terry,
I understand your suspicions while leaning toward HS's description of the GB's mental state. But many questions could be asked concerning the proper use of the "King's interests".
Forgetting non-JW charity for a moment, why not sell a few buildings and build hundreds of modest Kingdom Halls in the third world?
If it's not greedy to hoard real estate, it is certainly miserly. Is it not the modern equivalent of "burying your talents" to be found in the Lord's Day with millions of dollars of donated monies tied up
in real estate holdings? Or is real estate really the "worldwide work" the contribution box refers to? Isn't maintaining a large stock portfolio gambling with the Lord's money?

tms
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago


Terry,
I understand your suspicions while leaning toward HS's description of the GB's mental state. But many questions could be asked concerning the proper use of the "King's interests".
Forgetting non-JW charity for a moment, why not sell a few buildings and build hundreds of modest Kingdom Halls in the third world?
If it's not greedy to hoard real estate, it is certainly miserly. Is it not the modern equivalent of "burying your talents" to be found in the Lord's Day with millions of dollars of donated monies tied up
in real estate holdings? Or is real estate really the "worldwide work" the contribution box refers to? Isn't maintaining a large stock portfolio gambling with the Lord's money?

tms
Yes, I'm not amused by the comparison of imagining Jesus looking over his investment portfolio and signing off on million dollar deals while his followers shiver outside in the cold dumpster diving.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
the door to door work is a sham.. the central activity of the watchtower bible and tract society is not spreading their so-called "messege" about the kingdom of jehovah established in the heavens in 1914. that's a load of propaganda.. the door to door activity is feckless in producing converts.
in fact, it is an immense failure of mammoth proportions!.
but, it is a diversion.



Related Topics
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Watchtower-Free
Jehovah's Witnesses in Denmark targeting migrants
by Watchtower-Free 22 days ago
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
oppostate
Jehovah's Witnesses 'ordered destruction' of notes which could have been used during child sexual abuse inquiry
by oppostate a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126391/you-think-you-know-but-you-dont-know?page=5&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My Visits To Church
/  





 

My Visits To Church
by serotonin_wraith 8 years ago 40 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Why would an atheist go to church? To seek out a god?
No more than a historian seeks out Ra or Hathor by researching Egyptian religions.
Those religions are dead now. The modern ones can still be researched, without searching for a god. Just for research sake. In my case it helps with my arguments against religion, and I think it's just an interesting subject to begin with.
So, I went to a baptist one. I was even offered a bunch of DVDs and a booklet on creationism from the pastor, but when I looked at them, pointed out the mistakes and offered a whole lot of proof for evolution, no one could give me an answer. So much for that.
I wrote up a more thorough 'review' of a Mormon service, which is here if anyone's interested: http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4bcsa
I think I'll do more of this kind of thing. Instead of debating the same old points over and over in forums with closed minded people, I've decided for now to take the current atheist v theist culture war into the churches themselves to talk with anyone who feels they want to discuss these things. No pressure, no shouting, no anger. Just calm discussions with every day people.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 8 years ago

There are good reasons for an atheist or Devil worshiper to visit a church (and not to blow it up, either). First, one can enjoy the artwork on its own merits without having to believe in what it is supposed to represent. Many people visit churches for that reason alone, especially historic ones. Even some modern churches can be quite spectacular places to visit, even if one does not believe in the teachings.
Second, one can check out the beliefs for research purposes alone. And what does this church have to offer society? Some churches do take an active role in cutting crime, helping people in need, and stimulating people in positive ways. They sometimes have social clubs that use their facilities. And sometimes the churches themselves are as much social clubs as they are a belief system. Many Protestant denominations get involved in society in this way, and even some Catholic churches will set up social programs.
Finally, one can visit a church that one does not believe in for the simple reason that it will be a slap in Jehovah's face. Once you visit another church, or attend one of their services, you have made a step away from the Watchtower Society. There is rarely an obligation (or hounding sessions) to join. The Catholic churches, and most Protestant denominations, are safe in this way (though I would research anything that you are not familiar with, due to the number of cults and scams that could well be started).
 
Sad emo
Sad emo 8 years ago

Sero - get yourself enrolled on an Alpha course, you could cause havoc on one of those and (should) get a good, free feed into the bargain!
http://uk.alpha.org/findacourse
They do say you can ask no holds barred questions...
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Thanks sad emo, that's the kind of thing I need. As much as I don't agree with church teachings, people still have the right to go along and listen to the myths in peace. After watching some Ken Ham DVDs with them one time (ugh...) I could have stood up and said 'You do know this man is just lying through his teeth about there being no transitional forms... you do know that if billions of creatures had suddenly died in the flood and formed most of the fossils we see today, there shouldn't be a natural progression of life forms getting simpler (less evolved) the further down the rock you go, it should all be mixed up.' But I didn't do that.
However, when asked by some about what I thought of what I'd seen and the arguments for creationism, well I went right into it on a more individual basis, showing how it wasn't convincing to someone who had done the research.
If I can go straight into that kind of thing on the Alpha course, much better. I'll look into joining one.
 
real one
real one 8 years ago

boy i tell you i cant wait for the day to see some of your faces! if God allows me to
 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago


So, I went to a baptist one. I was even offered a bunch of DVDs and a booklet on creationism from the pastor, but when I looked at them, pointed out the mistakes and offered a whole lot of proof for evolution, no one could give me an answer. So much for that.
I'm surprised any church would focus on creationism as a point of introduction, and if they do, they should be able to back it up. I'd say you picked a poor representative. This doesn't support any point you would be trying to make in favor of atheism against Christianity, if that's part of your objective, any more than a particular atheist losing a debate to a particular Christian proves Christianity.
You will meet Christians who think all atheists are simply ignorant, and I'm glad you will dispel that myth. Meanwhile, there are plenty of rational, educated Christians out there who know that is not true, and who would be willing and able to discuss the issues with you. I hope you meet some.
BTW, "close-mindedness" isn't confined to Christians.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

hmike,
The creationism stuff was just going on at the time I visited, it wasn't for any newcomers. I had no idea what they were going to be talking about when I sat in the first time.
The pastor made the point that if the Genesis account couldn't be believed, what else in the Bible could. I said I agreed. My own opinion is that evolution shows that there was death and suffering before man came on the scene, so it takes away the notion of a fallen world, original sin and therefore the whole point of Jesus' sacrifice. It's something I've gone into in more detail before so I'm not looking to start a big debate about it here. Not because I'm close minded, I just don't think I could add much more to my thoughts on the subject anyway, which are all here-

http://www.sendspace.com/file/yex57k
I'll always listen to what 'the other side' has to say if anyone thinks it's completely wrong, but it looks pretty solid to me so that's what I'm going with for now.

 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago

Will you keep us updated on your investigation?
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Sure. The Alpha course doesn't start until September in most places here, so that'll have to wait for now. In the meantime I'll probably attend some other churches and write up reviews of them from my own atheist perspective.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

I've been to Baptist churches a few times. They are big on the Creationism.
I will visit from time to time, but the Baptist denomination is not a home for me.
Burn
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Those religions are dead now. The modern ones can still be researched, without searching for a god.
Why won't you search for a god? Why do you close that inquiry off? Billions of people have found something along that line of inquiry. Are you so closed minded?
I think I'll do more of this kind of thing. Instead of debating the same old points over and over in forums with closed minded people
I got your PM today. You are the one that's closed minded, it seems to me. You repeat the same thing over and over again like your brain is stuck in a closed loop.
YHWH=Thor=Zeus=Ra=Hathor.
Over and over again.


 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Why don't you go to the bottom of the garden and search for faries?
Because there is no good reason for believing in faries in the first place.
I'm open to faries being real, as I am to a god being real. But with just as much reason for believing in either, I don't go 'searching' for it. The reason I lump all the different gods together is because there is no more reason to believe in one over another. If there were, everyone would believe in one god.
If I really were close minded, I wouldn't answer challenges to my atheism. I do go out of my way to try and answer every point, such as 'How did humans get here?' 'Where do you get your morals from?' 'What have you got to lose by believing?' I go through it all, but I've found that even after giving the answers, there'll be another question to try and stumble me, rather than people saying 'Yes, that's not a good reason to believe in a god, I won't use that one again with anyone, otherwise it would be like trying to trick them.'
On the other hand, even after going over this with people, I hear a very close minded statement most of the time from them. "Well okay, even if there is no good reason to believe in a god, I have faith and that's that." The ultimate form of close mindedness is when no information can make any difference to your beliefs. My beliefs are open to change, and if someone ever provides a good reason for believing in a god, I will. It's as simple as that.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

"Well okay, even if there is no good reason to believe in a god, I have faith and that's that." The ultimate form of close mindedness is when no information can make any difference to your beliefs. My beliefs are open to change, and if someone ever provides a good reason for believing in a god, I will. It's as simple as that.
Belief in a Deity(s) is natural and reasonable. You don't have to believe, but you have no grounds to assert that it is unreasonable.
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html
Oh, and who said I don't believe in fairies?
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

To hold a reasonable position, one needs good reasons.
I have yet to hear one.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

To hold a reasonable position, one needs good reasons.
I have heard many. Plantinga as I linked earlier is an excellent start. Here is an essay of his. I recommend it to you, not to convert you, but so that you understand.
Convince me there is no God, against my strongest rooted intuitions and passions, and I will join you. Show me that my life will be better, that you will replace what I hold close with something that will ennoble me, will make me more godlike than I am, and I will embrace your nothingness. Convince me. But don't insult my intelligence.
Burn
 
Zico
Zico 8 years ago

Preaching in the Churches? You're like a modern day Apostle Paul! :smile:
Are you intending to go to any non-Christian temples/synagogues? You might find it interesting to converse with some Muslims/Jews/Buddhists etc...
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Are you intending to go to any non-Christian temples/synagogues? You might find it interesting to converse with some Muslims/Jews/Buddhists etc...
I doubt it. The subject here is "familiar" with Christianity. Familiarity breeds contempt apparently. He would rather flog a weakening religion in his country than face a growing foreign virulent one. I doubt he will be visiting any mosques soon. Allah's boys don't listen so politely. :wink:
The apostle Paul at least put his money where his mouth was-and paid the ultimate price.
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

I'll go over the essay in a day or two for you. I'm resisting full on detailed debates online at the moment because I need a rest from it. My post history is full of them anyhow.
You want me to prove a negative. It can't be done. Russel's teapot, the flying spaghetti monster, things like that cannot be disproven either, but that's no support to believing in them.
It isn't my job to pack you up in cotton wool because you're afraid of death. You shouldn't believe things because they make you feel better. If you're poor is it better to fool yourself into thinking you're rich, or to deal with the problem of making ends meet? As comforting as the lie would be, it's not a reasonable position to hold.
You seem to have a very negative view of this life. Why can't you find joy, peace, fulfillment etc here on planet Earth, instead of waiting for it in some future afterlife there's no reason to believe in? You said before that you wouldn't like it if we were born simply to die. That's a horrible way to look at things. We're born so that we may live. So live. You're damn lucky to be here in the first place. It amazes me that there had to be a CONTINUOUS chain of life stretching back over BILLIONS of years on a planet where 99% of all species have gone extinct and countless sperm and eggs don't get to create life so that you could be here now, complaining that if you don't get to live forever, your life is pretty much pointless.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Zico,
I've only been to three so far, (Mormons, Salvation Army and Baptist are quite diverse to start with!) but I will be researching other places of worship. I just have to travel out of my way to reach them as I'm in a more Christian area. The majority of Muslims are peaceful, so I can't see a problem if we get talking about our differences of opinion. Like I said, I'm discussing the issues with PEOPLE WHO WANT TO, not standing up and shouting over their services and forcing my side.
 
Sirona
Sirona 8 years ago

Why would an atheist go to church? To seek out a god?
No more than a historian seeks out Ra or Hathor by researching Egyptian religions.
OR an atheist could seek out Ra or Hathor.
Those religions are dead now.
Oh no they're not!
Sirona
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth 25 days ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/155845/my-visits-church






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My Visits To Church
/  





 

My Visits To Church
by serotonin_wraith 8 years ago 40 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

You want me to prove a negative. It can't be done. Russel's teapot, the flying spaghetti monster, things like that cannot be disproven either, but that's no support to believing in them.
I don't believe in Russell's teapot, or FSM, so why do you keep bringing them up? :smile:
It isn't my job to pack you up in cotton wool because you're afraid of death. You shouldn't believe things because they make you feel better. If you're poor is it better to fool yourself into thinking you're rich, or to deal with the problem of making ends meet? As comforting as the lie would be, it's not a reasonable position to hold.
You certainly seem to have made something your job, as your militant atheist life demonstrates. Why, you have dropped behind enemy lines at the Baptist church! That's pretty admirable. I am not afraid of death anymore. I look forward to it, I just want to get a few things done in the world first. :smile: As I've said, belief in God is reasonable. I will let you read up a bit before we discuss that.
You seem to have a very negative view of this life. Why can't you find joy, peace, fulfillment etc here on planet Earth, instead of waiting for it in some future afterlife there's no reason to believe in?
The Universe is not big enough for me. If it is random and without meaning, then it is nothing more than a prison for my spirit, so it cannot be random and meaningless.
You said before that you wouldn't like it if we were born simply to die. That's a horrible way to look at things. We're born so that we may live. So live.
A Universe without meaning has little value, and life for it's own sake has little value! I LIVE. I am--and I always will be. I am ALIVE. More than you are-because my life will not end, whereas you yourself are nothing more than an ingenious collection of molecules.
You are the one that believes we are born simply to die. How can you believe otherwise in a cold uncaring random and meaningless Universe? To assert a deeper meaning is an act of faith.
You're damn lucky to be here in the first place. It amazes me that there had to be a CONTINUOUS chain of life stretching back over BILLIONS of years on a planet where 99% of all species have gone extinct and countless sperm and eggs don't get to create life so that you could be here now, complaining that if you don't get to live forever, your life is pretty much pointless
I wouldn't call any of that luck....
I am here because I needed to be here.
So, no, there is a point.
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

I know you don't believe in the teapot etc. Even though they can't be disproven, you still don't believe in them. You can see that it would be crazy. So why say 'well you can't disprove God!'? It's such a bad argument.
Lol militant. Yeah, words which nobody's forced to look at. Very militant.
You're not afraid of death from planet Earth, but I do think you're afraid of ceasing to exist completely.
You can make your own meaning in life. Spirit - no reason to believe you have one.


A Universe without meaning has little value, and life for it's own sake has little value!
Ungrateful.


I am ALIVE. More than you are-because my life will not end
Arrogant.
You are the one that believes we are born simply to die. How can you believe otherwise in a cold uncaring random and meaningless Universe? To assert a deeper meaning is an act of faith.
My meaning is personal and comes from within myself. It's not faith to think I like eating cheese on toast, so why is it faith to know of other ways I want to enjoy this life?
We do die, but not before living. If I did think death was the only point, I'd hardly be trying to sustain a durable future for our species, would I? It's the journey that matters, not the destination.



I wouldn't call any of that luck....

I am here because I needed to be here.
Visions of grandeur and a bloated self ego.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Thinking about it, you say life just for life's sake has little value, yet you're happy about living forever. Won't that just be an eternity of low value existence?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Lol militant. Yeah, words which nobody's forced to look at. Very militant.
You are the one going to churches to expound your philosophy. That is arrogant. That is militant. No that is fanatical. You go in to prey on the sheep. One day you will find a ram there. There are BurnTheShips everywhere. :wink:
Scratch that, one day you will meet the Shephard of the flock.
Ungrateful.
Ungrateful? To who? There is no one out there to be grateful to remember? How can I be grateful to chance and deterministic necessity?
My meaning is personal and comes from within myself. It's not faith to think I like eating cheese on toast, so why is it faith to know of other ways I want to enjoy this life?
My meaning is Personal also, and comes from within a Voice that speaks in me. As for you it is a cold hearless uncaring universe. You are just an accident, remember? You will die, and there will be nothing when the molecules disassociate. Very soon even the memory of you will fade. It will be as if you never existed.
Visions of grandeur and a bloated self ego.
I am. I will be.
What I do in this life will echo in eternity.
That is a LIFE.
Burn
 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago

Hey Serotonin and Burn,
I'm getting way off the original topic here, but you both have been discussing perspectives on life and death, and since you are both "here" and represent different perspectives, this might be a good time to ask about something I've wondered...
In the New Testament, and especially the books of Luke and Matthew, we see the future Kingdom of God as the equalizer for this life.
• Jesus says to his disciples, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God" (Luke 6:20), and also, "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort" (6:24).
• Jesus tells the story of the rich man, who lived in luxury, and went to torment when he died, and Lazarus, who lived in utter poverty, but went to Paradise when he died. Abraham says to the rich man, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." (Luke 16:19-31)
There are many other statements, all saying to the Israelites something like, "For those who are poor, disadvantaged, miserable, enslaved, and abused in this life, great things await in the coming Kingdom. But if you're insulated from misery, well-fed and living in luxury and comfort in this life, that's your only good time because in the future, you'll be left out of the Kingdom in misery and torment." So to those who are wealthy, Jesus advises them to voluntarily adopt the perspective of the poor, or maybe even literally become poor if that's what it takes. The idea is that this life is relatively short and conditions are temporary—the everlasting future is more important—better to have it rough now and wonderful later than the other way around.
In the society of this time, the message that there was a new world coming was "good news" to the poor and outcast. Good times were ahead. This was something to look forward to—something that made the misery and trouble of this life tolerable, and even something to embrace. That was the appeal of the gospel of the Kingdom, and it was welcomed by people in this kind of life situation. On the other hand, in Luke's book, Jesus says it is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God (18:24). The indication seems to be that the appeal of wealth and comfort is a hindrance, even a barrier, to entering the Kingdom.
Now look at the life most of us in the industrialized countries have. We have food, housing, entertainment, heating and air conditioning, running water, sanitation, 40-hour work weeks, medicines and health care, government aid, etc. Even on the lower end of the economic scale, we live better, longer, and more comfortably than the best did back then. We are far more than wealthy by standards of that time.
This leads to my questions regarding perspectives on life and death:
Does living in these privileged conditions dull the appeal of the gospel for a better future?
Are we like the wealthy of the time of Jesus, enjoying a heaven on earth?
Are those with a good, satisfying life now simply not interested in a good future life?
Is the prospect of creating a world without hunger, homelessness, crime, and a world with love, peace, and unconditional acceptance, and high quality of life for long lifespans replacing the gospel of the Kingdom? (In other words, does this gospel simply represent a need or dream which can be realized by people without God?)
It seems to me that in our relatively affluent society, churches are placing more emphasis on what faith can do now, in this life, than what it can bring in the future.
Anyone who wants can answer this.
Serotonin, I hope you don't mind. We'll eventually get your thread back on track.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

You are the one going to churches to expound your philosophy. That is arrogant. That is militant. No that is fanatical. You go in to prey on the sheep. One day you will find a ram there. There are BurnTheShips everywhere. :wink:
Again, atheism is not a philosophy.
Can I ask what's wrong with talking about religion with people who want to talk about it? It's no different to going to a religious forum, explaining my position and chatting with people about it. I take it you don't have a problem when people try to spread the message of Jesus? I don't either by the way, because I can either say 'no thanks' or I can talk about it with them. It's my choice. Why the double standard?
Is it also fanatical to talk with people about who the next president should be, or the best way to eat healthily? Hardly. Religion is just another topic where opinion is different. If people's faith is strong, why be afraid to hear my side? They could show me I'm wrong by giving me their good reasons. Perhaps I'll be converted.
Why does your god need defending from me? Why do you want to shut off the communication between believer and non believer? What are you afraid of? Much of this betrays what I feel is insecurity on your part, although I know in advance you will probably deny this. Someone in a strong position shouldn't be afraid of hearing an opposing view. I'm not.

Yes, ungrateful. Not satisfied. Not with a person, but with the situation.
As for you it is a cold hearless uncaring universe. You are just an accident, remember? You will die, and there will be nothing when the molecules disassociate. Very soon even the memory of you will fade. It will be as if you never existed.
Let's say this is the case. Is it wrong because it doesn't sound very nice? No.
The point is that even in a 'cold heartless universe', here I am with the chance to experience something which may not even exist elsewhere in the universe- life. With all the millions of planets which support no life, this only helps show that I should be grateful (to the situation) to be here at all. My life isn't cold and hard. That's the important thing, not the lifeless universe above our atmosphere.
Perhaps nobody will remember me when I die. Is it wrong because it doesn't sound very nice? No. Much of what you say talks about this. 'Your position must be wrong because it doesn't appeal to me.' Not a good argument. This is about what's real, not about what people want to be real. The slice of life you're living now is what matters, not what some future life will think of you. I hope they'll be off enjoying their life instead of wasting it looking you or me up.

I am. I will be.
What I do in this life will echo in eternity.
That is a LIFE.
Burn
Close. Remove the capital F.
How will the universe get by without knowledge of your existence in the future? I really feel for them. Keep posting, write books, make music. Their lives won't be complete unless they know Burn existed at some point in their past!
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

hmike,
I can see how it could be appealing to look forward to a better afterlife if the current life isn't of a high standard. Even if I were starving in Africa, riddled with disease, most of my family had died and things were unbearable, I may think 'well, this is a bit shit' but I STILL couldn't make myself believe in something, just because it gave me comfort. To me, it's just wishful thinking.
I get the sense that many people 'find God' when they're going through a rough patch. They lose their legs in an accident, their child dies, etc. 'Look at all this suffering' people say, 'I'm looking forward to a time when Jesus steps in and helps us.' I agree when you say better lives on Earth are replacing the need for god belief. That doesn't apply to me, although I cannot be sure of my thoughts if I'd been born in a poorer country.
Apart from America, I think it's right to conclude that the poorer countries have the most believers ( I include other religions here) and the countries better off are more likely to have a more secular outlook.
I do hope this 'new world' created by humans replaces the desire to have a god do it. Religious people can do much good, yet religion isn't needed. We don't need to read 'Love thy neighbour and God will be pleased' in order to go and help Africans build wells. We can do it for the sake of helping our fellow humans. Some religions can even prevent this. The JWs only look after their own because they don't think it is within man's power to solve the world's problems. They believe this so much, they don't even want to try.
 
hmike
hmike 8 years ago

We don't need to read 'Love thy neighbour and God will be pleased' in order to go and help Africans build wells. We can do it for the sake of helping our fellow humans.
I wonder, "Would we?"
It would be interesting to see what would have happened in history, and what the world would be like if Christianity were totally absent. We'd lose the bad, but we'd also lose the good. What if the positive influences of Christianity were removed from the non-Christian world? Even if beneficial things aren't the direct result of Christianity, it still has influenced the consciousness of Western society.
Many of us know where we'd be without faith, and we wouldn't be helping our fellow humans.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago


I wonder, "Would we?"
It would be interesting to see what would have happened in history, and what the world would be like if Christianity were totally absent. We'd lose the bad, but we'd also lose the good. What if the positive influences of Christianity were removed from the non-Christian world? Even if beneficial things aren't the direct result of Christianity, it still has influenced the consciousness of Western society.
Many of us know where we'd be without faith, and we wouldn't be helping our fellow humans.

We have remarked before that the parasites which live in the intestines of higher animals, feeding upon the nutritive juices which these animals supply, do not need either to see or hear, and therefore for them the visible and audible world does not exist. And if they possessed a certain degree of consciousness and took account of the fact that the animal at whose expense they live believed in a world of sight and hearing, they would perhaps deem such belief to be due merely to the extravagance of its imagination. And similarly there are social parasites, as Mr. A.J. Balfour admirably observes,[10] who, receiving from the society in which they live the motives of their moral conduct, deny that belief in God and the other life is a necessary foundation for good conduct and for a tolerable life, society having prepared for them the spiritual nutriment by which they live. An isolated individual can endure life and live it well and even heroically without in any sort believing either in the immortality of the soul or in God, but he lives the life of a spiritual parasite.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

hmike,
I was thinking about going into more detail about this, but there's really no need. It can all be summed up in one word. Japan.
I can elaborate if you like, but I don't think there's any need.
If someone won't help other humans without their faith, that's one thing. Their choice. If they try to cause suffering or let suffering happen without intervening, then they are not truly moral to begin with. If the only reason someone wouldn't hurt others was because he or she thought that would please their god, then they are extremely dangerous people.
BTS,
I only have one question. A yes or no answer is all that is needed.
If you did not believe in a god, would you hurt others?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

If you did not believe in a god, would you hurt others?
That person would not be who I am, so I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine.
Read my Unamuno quote above.
Upon whose cost doth thou feed.
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

You don't know? Why not? Afterall, what's to think about? Morality comes from religion, right? Without that, you would obviously turn evil. There couldn't possibly be another reason to stop you.
Could there?

Edit: Sorry, I can't be bothered with the moral argument again. BTS, we've been over this before. You ended up not being able to respond.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/144503/1.ashx
I can't see any point in repeating myself. I think this is why debating got to be a headache for me. If you're going to act deliberately blind to what I say, keep reading over my previous posts and pretend they're new ones. It's essentially the same thing.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago


You don't know? Why not? Afterall, what's to think about? Morality comes from religion, right? Without that, you would obviously turn evil. There couldn't possibly be another reason to stop you.
Could there?
On this thread I never said that about morality. Read my post above. Read my quote from Miguel Unamunos The Tragic Life. You can be an unbeliever and be moral, even heroic. What I did say is that an unbelieving BTS would be a radically different person than the one here "before" you. So would the other BTS be be good or evil? I don't know. This BTS here is evil.
That is your answer.
You brought up the moral argument:
We don't need to read 'Love thy neighbour and God will be pleased' in order to go and help Africans build wells.
Of course not. We don't need a religious foundation to do good. But where are the Atheist missions? Where are the Atheist orgs in Africa building wells? I can't think of one. Google "Christian Aid Africa" or "Christian Mission Africa". Here's a few of the hits:



Christ Cares Childrens Home
a caring and rehabilitation centre for orphans and needy children from the streets and poor families in Kajiado District in Kenya











Orphanages for Africa (OFA)
a Christian multinational charity which offers humanitarian and development assistance to Africans caring for orphans.
Hope for Africa IntermationalA Christian Charitable Organisation providing humanitarian and social services to Orphans and Vulnerable Children in Africa through Community Schools. We, through Church links program, provide spiritual support to families in crisis and other need groups.
Sponsoring African Children in Kenya Africa Christian CharityThe mission of Pamoja Child Trust, Inc. is to promote, sponsor, and assist Kenyans in developing programs that would optimize the physical, emotional, spiritual, mental and social well being of children.


I can't see any point in repeating myself. I think this is why debating got to be a headache for me. If you're going to act deliberately blind to what I say, keep reading over my previous posts and pretend they're new ones. It's essentially the same thing.
LOL. You cuntpaste the link to one of my first convos with a militant antitheist and use that to end the discussion? Look at my post count there. I've evolved sero.
You haven't even addressed my previous two comments properly. What morality you possess you have, in part, learned from your culture and Christian heritage. At least give credit where due.
Ungrateful.
Have a good one Zero.
BurnTheShips.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Don't even ask me about the formatting above. I have no idea.
I try to fix it and it gets worse.
I hope its legible.
Burn
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago


Edit: Sorry, I can't be bothered with the moral argument again. BTS, we've been over this before. You ended up not being able to respond.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/144503/1.ashx
I can't see any point in repeating myself. I think this is why debating got to be a headache for me. If you're going to act deliberately blind to what I say, keep reading over my previous posts and pretend they're new ones. It's essentially the same thing.
I'm back at the trough again! :smile:
I read the thread, JGNAT gave you a run for your money, I did not see you decisively (or even convincingly) neutralize her reasoning.
I've repeated myself many times here as well, my post count is a bit higher than yours, it comes with the territory, so please jettison the martyr complex.
Consider it training for when you face the motley hordes in the Christ-dens you visit. :wink:
Cheers,
Burn
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

So apparently, the only reason I am moral is because other humans believe the myth that they will live forever thanks to an invisible creator who can read our minds.
Let's imagine a world in which these holy books hadn't been written, like the time before they were written. To even reach the point where we could work together to invent our different religions we would have had to have been aware that a world where people got on was better for our survival than a world in which we all killed each other over nothing.

But where are the Atheist missions? Where are the Atheist orgs in Africa building wells? I can't think of one. Google "Christian Aid Africa" or "Christian Mission Africa".
Try googling 'atheist charities' and plenty of sites give you your answer. You have to stop thinking of atheism as a 'belief system'. Atheists would do good things in the name of what, exactly? In the name of 'no god'? You are essentially asking 'Where are the Zeus Denying Organisations? Where are the Unbelievers in Unicorns charities? Why don't I hear of the We Don't Believe in Allah Alliance?'
How many good things have you done in the name of not believing in Russell's teapot?
Ridiculous, yeah? It's only in the Christian mind that your god is somehow more likely than all of these things. There are secular groups who help, those that don't do these things in the name of promoting religion. Even they don't say they do it in the 'name of atheism' because, as I've said, it's not a belief system.

LOL. You cuntpaste the link to one of my first convos with a militant antitheist and use that to end the discussion? Look at my post count there. I've evolved sero.
I used it to show I've been over this with you before, and you didn't respond to my points. I've not read it yet, but it looks like you may have finally got around to answering some of the points in that thread now.
More posts means a better ability to answer questions? Judging from this current thread, I don't think this is the case. You've ignored several of my questions here too. Do you want me to make a list?
You haven't even addressed my previous two comments properly. What morality you possess you have, in part, learned from your culture and Christian heritage. At least give credit where due.
I have addressed those points. I addressed them several months ago in the other thread and it's only now I'm getting a response.

please jettison the martyr complex.
Please forgive me. I thought you would have been more lenient, seeing as this life is all I have (unless I burn forever!) and your existence will continue throughout eternity, after the sun goes supernova, Earth ceases to be and our galaxy collides with another. I will attempt to be more humble.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

Ehh, why not? Maybe this should be pointed out.
Some of these questions were direct, others are ones I'm just curious about now that I look back over the thread. Each one you answer will be removed from the list.
1. Do you believe in faries?
2. If not, do you go to the bottom of the garden to search for them?
3. Would you admit that it's a bad argument to say 'Well, you can't DISPROVE [whatever it is]'?
4. How is it faith to know of ways I want to enjoy this life?
5. You have said I must think death is the only point - 'born simply to die'. Can you explain why I am being inconsistent in trying to sustain a durable future for our species?
6. If life just for life's sake has little value, won't living forever be an eternity of low value existence?
7. What's wrong with talking about religion with people who want to talk about it?
8. I take it you don't have a problem when people try to spread the message of Jesus, so why the double standard?
9. Is it fanatical to talk with people about who the next president should be, or the best way to eat healthily?
10. Why does your god need defending from me?
11. Is it a good argument to say things are wrong/false because they don't sound very nice?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

Hey Sero
Bringing up a thread from 6 months ago is a cop-out.
You don't have to believe.
I don't have to stop believing.
All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with believing.
You say there is something wrong with it and therefore you have to convert others.
You have the agenda, not I.
Deal with it.
 
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago

12. What would atheists do good things in the name of?
13.
How many good things have you done in the name of not believing in Russell's teapot?

And I could have included a couple more there.
Bringing up a thread from 6 months ago is a cop-out.
I think it's better to link to a thread rather than copy and paste huge chunks of my past writing and put it in this one. Out of the two of us, I'm still the last to give my thoughts on that subject. I can't continue without feedback.

You don't have to believe.
I don't have to stop believing.
Totally agree.

All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with believing.
You say there is something wrong with it and therefore you have to convert others.
Not quite. People can believe what they want. It's the actions done in the name of their beliefs I'm more concerned about, but I'm not the thought police! Which is why I never speak to people who don't want to talk about it.
You have the agenda, not I.
I've not kept it a secret. Yes, I'd like humanity to give up superstition. Call it an 'agenda' if you like. If you don't like it, you don't have to read what I put. To do so is your choice.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

1. Do you believe in faries?
I believe in spirits.
2. If not, do you go to the bottom of the garden to search for them?
See #1.
3. Would you admit that it's a bad argument to say 'Well, you can't DISPROVE [whatever it is]'?
You deny my own experience with a categorical universal negative.
4. How is it faith to know of ways I want to enjoy this life?
Those ways constitute a belief system. That XYZ is a good way to live constitutes a belief. You really can't prove it now can you?
5. You have said I must think death is the only point - 'born simply to die'. Can you explain why I am being inconsistent in trying to sustain a durable future for our species?
You caricature what I said. At this point I think you are misunderstanding me on purpose.
6. If life just for life's sake has little value, won't living forever be an eternity of low value existence?
I believe that life for it's own sake is less satisfying than life for a greater purpose. So no, I believe that eternal life in communion with God wouldn't be a low value existence but a supremely meaningful one.
7. What's wrong with talking about religion with people who want to talk about it ?
I believe you are lying here. You do not merely want to talk about it like we are discussing the weather. You have an agenda to convert as many of those that don't agree with you as possible. You sent me an unsolicited PM earlier this week. You do not sound like you just "want to talk about it":
It's become so desperate that we're having to trample on people's feelings and sensibilities. That's not something I like doing, but when I consider the alternative I feel there's no choice. Better for someone to understand there are no pixies and feel a little upset, than for someone to kill in the name of pixies.

9. Is it fanatical to talk with people about who the next president should be, or the best way to eat healthily?
No. But neither do I surreptitiously go to the meetings of the opposition party to disrupt the purpose it is being held for.
8. I take it you don't have a problem when people try to spread the message of Jesus, so why the double standard?
I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with your dishonesty. I would never go to an atheist antichristian meeting to preach and try to convert them. I would not go to a mosque or synagogue or a coven to do the same. That would be disrespectful.
10. Why does your god need defending from me?
He doesn't. I am not defending God. I am defending my belief in God.
11. Is it a good argument to say things are wrong/false because they don't sound very nice?
It is not wrong to demonstrate how one belief system has greater utilitarian value than another one. You yourself have spent a lot of time on this thread attempting to do just that with respect to your own views.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
why would an atheist go to church?
to seek out a god?.
no more than a historian seeks out ra or hathor by researching egyptian religions.. those religions are dead now.



Related Topics
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth 25 days ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/155845/my-visits-church?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My Visits To Church
/  





 

My Visits To Church
by serotonin_wraith 8 years ago 40 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
serotonin_wraith
serotonin_wraith 8 years ago


1. Do you believe in faries?
I believe in spirits.
That's nice.

1. Do you believe in faries?
2. See 1.


You deny my own experience with a categorical universal negative.

In what way? I'm not sure what you're saying here.
I know I don't use the 'well you can't disprove it' argument if you're trying to say I do the same thing.



Those ways constitute a belief system. That XYZ is a good way to live constitutes a belief. You really can't prove it now can you?
 I have good reasons for believing those ways give me joy. The best reason is that they give me joy. My ways certainly aren't the meaning of life for everyone, only myself. There is no universal meaning of life.

You caricature what I said.

I don't think so.
You write:
"You are the one that believes we are born simply to die. How can you believe otherwise in a cold uncaring random and meaningless Universe?"
I believe that life for it's own sake is less satisfying than life for a greater purpose. So no, I believe that eternal life in communion with God wouldn't be a low value existence but a supremely meaningful one.

Isn't human life just part of this great purpose too? It seems that to even reach the afterlife you seek, you HAD to be born into THIS life first. More than that, you had to be born in a world where you would come to learn of Christianity. I thought you were in communion with God now, and that the years you've lived so far are just the start of your eternal life, seeing as you are going to survive your own death.
I believe you are lying here. You do not merely want to talk about it like we are discussing the weather

I never said I did. I said I want to talk about it with people who want to talk about it. I don't say 'I want to find God, please help me.' That would be lying. I say 'I don't believe in a god because I see no reason to believe in one, but I like discussing the issues.' It's then up to them if they want to or not.
The PM was in response to a thread you wrote weeks ago (and I did tell you this), where you seemed concerned about outspoken atheism. I did not try to deconvert you, I gave explanations as to why outspoken atheism was taking place. It's not the same thing.
But neither do I surreptitiously go to the meetings of the opposition party to disrupt the purpose it is being held for.

I have disrupted nothing. I have sat in quietly and did not approach anyone. When asked by members who I was, I explained I was a non believer (nothing hidden). When people gave me their reasons for believing (which I did not ask for), I listened and then explained how their arguments did not convince me. I could have listened and said nothing (and been rude) or I could have lied and said 'Yes, those are good reasons.' I don't like to be rude or lie, so I told the truth.
In fact, with the Baptist one, events went like this:
I had a leaflet through my door advertising the church and saying all were welcome. The very first communication was not even initiated by myself. I attended. Then, as I explain above, I was asked who I was, etc. The pastor approached me and offered me a book he'd written. I took it and read it. I emailed him with my thoughts on the book. He was not forced to read the email, just as I was not forced to read the book. HE invited ME to meet up for coffee and discuss things further. We spoke of creationism and evolution, and I did not lie about my position. I explained we were on opposite sides in this particular matter. He gave me creationist material to look at. I have responded to it, offering evidence to back up what my position is. He either cannot respond or has chosen not to respond to me at this point. That's as far as it goes now with him in my eyes. To pursue it even further would be forcing my opinion.
I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with your dishonesty. I would never go to an atheist antichristian meeting to preach and try to convert them. I would not go to a mosque or synagogue or a coven to do the same. That would be disrespectful.

Hopefully I've covered this now. Once people try to convert me, I'm free to give my side. They've initiated the exchange, and can stop at any time. Otherwise I would be being rude or a liar.
It is not wrong to demonstrate how one belief system has greater utilitarian value than another one. You yourself have spent a lot of time on this thread attempting to do just that with respect to your own views.

No, that's fine. I even agree that in some cases religion can be comforting if someone wants to live forever, because reality doesn't offer that comfort. What interests me is whether it shows something to be true or not, and just because X is comforting, it doesn't mean X is true.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
why would an atheist go to church?
to seek out a god?.
no more than a historian seeks out ra or hathor by researching egyptian religions.. those religions are dead now.



Related Topics
Defianttruth
Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth 25 days ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/155845/my-visits-church?page=3&size=20