Jehovah's-Witness . com forum discussions

Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ 2016 Regional Convention - Invite First Look
/  





 

2016 Regional Convention - Invite First Look
by pixel 15 hours ago 46 Replies latest 15 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
pixel
pixel 15 hours ago

You saw it here first!



 +15 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 15 hours ago
A gripping feature length film on Sunday about Hezekiah?? Where do I sign up??
 +11 / -0
nowwhat?
nowwhat? 15 hours ago
So much for hoping they would focus more on Jesus from now on. More old testament and ancient Israel crap that's supposed to relevent for us.
 +5 / -0
redvip2000
redvip2000 14 hours ago
Oh Yay!! A gripping feature film on Sunday about King Hezekiah. Fairly certain that won't be a snoozer!

 +7 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 14 hours ago
"Remain loyal to Jehova!" - I think what they mean is: "Don't run away from JW.ORG!"

 +13 / -0
sir82
sir82 14 hours ago

So the theme is "loyalty", eh?
Lovely. 3 days of spittle-flying invective against dirty, evil apostates.

 +10 / -1
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 14 hours ago

Lovely. 3 days of spittle-flying invective against dirty, evil apostates

You lack vision. There's so many ways JWs can be loyal:
Show loyalty by shunning disfellowshipped (screw that, shun inactive ones too!) family
Show loyalty by giving of "valuable things"
Show loyalty by doing whatever the elders tell you, even if it's immoral or against the law (protecting pedophiles or destroying documents!)
Show loyalty by preaching in the face of opposition (or, more likely, boredom and lack of results)
Show loyalty by not pursuing education
Show loyalty by sticking with it even though all it's done is cause pain (from the sound of it, this is the theme of day 2)
 +13 / -0
NotBlind
NotBlind 14 hours ago

Every year the convention is almost exactly the same. A litany of nonmemorable 10-minute talks on endless "Symposia" that have very little to do with Christian living, canned (and overblown/made-up) experiences & interviews, unrealistic demonstrations and "monologues", and somewhere along the line of 50 "talks" that are nearly word-for-word manuscripts sent down from the home office.
It would be bad enough if people had to sit in semi-comfortable Kingdom Hall chairs to endure all of this, but most JW's have to sit in hard plastic-backed, no-legroom sports arenas for 3 days. If they are unfortunate enough to have to visit the restroom during this event, it will stink of sewage gas & farts, because these venues are not designed to be used/abused nonstop for 3 days.
Any family of 4 that shows up to this event on Sunday morning any time after 8:30 am will find ALL the seats reserved with tracts, handbills, & magazines, many of which will go empty. That's the great love these people show.
The "speakers" rarely have more than a high school education (most act as if they have less) and earn their way onto that stage by smooching rear ends of higher-ups & CO's, creatively counting time in the "pioneer" work, and doing a good job of hiding their faults from others in the organization.
Attendees will be staying at low-end roadside motels, where the continental breakfast will be slammed at 7:00 sharp every morning. There will be no place to sit & eat said breakfast. The hotel pool will be slammed every evening from 6 - 10 pm each evening by bad-behaved JW children and their thoughtless parents.
Perhaps they should include some of these details on their 2016 "convention" invitation?
 +8 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 14 hours ago

As the ship slowly sinks, the grip tightens and "loyalty" will be the focus. No matter how crazy things seem, no matter how much it doesn't make sense, no matter the scandal and exposure and news reports: stay loyal to the org. Loyalty used in this way can be a thought stopping word.
They've changed Micah 6:8 in the NNWT and I would bet they will probably be beating this drum: "He has told you, O man, what is good. And what is Jehovah requiring of you? Only to exercise justice to cherish loyalty, And to walk in modesty with your God!"
Other translations render this "love mercy" or "love kindness"...even the old NWT was a similar thought. Rather than love, mercy, or kindness being the emphasis, they've made loyalty the important thing. Be loyal to Watchtower right or wrong (well never wrong: waiting for adjustment, clarification, new light, ect…)




 +11 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 14 hours ago
Get your popcorn ready!
 +3 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 14 hours ago



 
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 14 hours ago



 
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 14 hours ago

Incredible. Thank you for posting!
I can't wait to hear about this exciting video about Hezekiah! I've always wanted to hear that [fairy] tale in video format.

 +5 / -0
truthseeker
truthseeker 14 hours ago

Loyalty conjures up a three part symposium on apostates.
Will Korah, Dathan and Abiram get a mention?

 +2 / -0
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 13 hours ago

I wonder if loyalty has anything to do with believing Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE despite all of the facts proving otherwise.
 +4 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 13 hours ago
I bet they don't mention Hezekiah s royal seal bula that was found not to long ago. The one with two Egyptian ancks and a winged sun disk, which is reference to the god RA.
 +5 / -0
Da.Furious
Da.Furious 13 hours ago

Thanks OP.
Lucky me, i am on holiday during the convention. I will read the highlights on here.
Thanks in advance to whoever is going to post the highlights.

 +3 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 13 hours ago

Oh, they're hurting. The bleeding out of the Org must be massive for them to dedicate a whole assembly to this.
WOW!!!
DY
 +6 / -0
pixel
pixel 13 hours ago


post the highlights.
You mean the lowlights, Da.Furious.
 +3 / -0
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 13 hours ago
I guess "everyone" does not include apostates in the people who are invited. I was once asked politely to retire from a convention in Mazatlan because I was apparently making the JW's uneasy just with my presence. I just wanted to count how many were baptized and their demographics (male/female, approximate age).
 +6 / -0

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
wifibandit
Warwick Project Update Email
by wifibandit 4 months ago
OrphanCrow
Spokane 2016 Convention dates - "darkest weekend"
by OrphanCrow a month ago
kepler
Another problem with Daniel
by kepler 4 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5673033662464000/2016-regional-convention-invite-first-look






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ 2016 Regional Convention - Invite First Look
/  





 

2016 Regional Convention - Invite First Look
by pixel 15 hours ago 46 Replies latest 24 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 13 hours ago
Oh look, we are "waaaaaaaaarmly welcomed" to this as well! LOL!
 +3 / -0
Gayle
Gayle 13 hours ago

Interesting, in 2 Kings 18:14-16 Hezekiah states "I have done wrong . . .I will pay whatever you demand of me.
So Hezekiah gave him (king of Assyria) all the silver that was found in the temple . . .stripped off the gold and gave to the king of Assyria." (I just have a NIV bible)
Makes me wonder if the org will have some bible way of trying to explain why they have to pay some wicked governments a lot of money???
 +7 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 12 hours ago

I don't understand how you can remain loyal to someone that doesn't exist.

 +6 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard 12 hours ago
I dont think I would last an hour
 +3 / -0
sir82
sir82 12 hours ago


I don't understand how you can remain loyal to someone that doesn't exist
What, you think they mean Jehovah?
Psssh!
The GB don't care a flying fig about your loyalty to "Jehovah".
They want loyalty to MEN - the GB, the elders, the organization itself.

 +10 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 12 hours ago

Hmmm.... an entire convention on Loyalty. Looks like a lot of people are being dis loyal. People are leaving and are angry. Just the title of the assembly tells me they are very worried. Remember what the March Broadcast says about removing the rafter from YOUR eye, not the other way around. The organization has done NOTHING, it's always YOUR fault . Remember that. lol
Let me guess, they will have a talk about your loyalty and giving your "first fruits". Which translates, "give us your money."
 +7 / -0
blondie
blondie 12 hours ago

Most jws I knew went to assembly/conventions because of the fun afterwards in their room overdrinking, eating, talking about anything other than the convention info and that is just the elders. The first time my husband the new elder went, he was stunned; it was like the pot parties he went to when he was in HS, college, and work before he got baptized, actually worse. The kids down in the pool chasing non-jws away by their rudeness not controlled by their mothers who sat around with the other mothers catching up on the gossip in each other's congregations. The pre-teen boys playing a game with the elevators, so the non-jw people at the hotel had to use the stairs.
I remember the manager trying to control things and the mothers ripped him a new one and said they were paying customers too.
I saw many at the convention with ear plugs but not tuned to the talks; or the privileged elders walking the halls or sitting at the tables in the hall.
They took away the only things I liked, danishes and pudding and the frozen orange juice.
 +4 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 12 hours ago
LOL @ sir82.

 +2 / -0
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 12 hours ago
Oh, I loved those cheese danishes!
 +3 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 12 hours ago
Yeah...the pudding was great!
 +2 / -0
blondie
blondie 11 hours ago
We make the cooked Jello pudding and call it witness pudding at home. I like chocolate the best.
 +2 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 11 hours ago


Who May Attend?
Everyone.You won`t be charged admission,and no collection will be taken.
Because..
They Beg For Cash Right from the Assembly Stage..
.
...............We Need MONEY!..

...Image result for Watchtower Stephen Lett....Image result for Whats in your Wallet?
 +7 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 11 hours ago
LOYALTY! I just got a quote from someone about"loyalty".. DataDog? A 94 WT.. March, I believe. I am not at home, so...... It was talking about bringing reproach on Jehovah's name (like going to the police about pedophiles).... What was the article about? Loyalty!! CYA!
 
blondie
blondie 11 hours ago

(2 Kings 18:13-16) . . .. 14 So Hez·e·ki′ah the king of Judah sent to the king of As·syr′i·a at La′chish, saying: “I have sinned. Turn back from against me. Whatever you may impose upon me I shall carry.” Accordingly the king of As·syr′i·a laid upon Hez·e·ki′ah the king of Judah three hundred silver talents and thirty gold talents. 15 Therefore Hez·e·ki′ah gave all the silver that was to be found at the house of Jehovah and in the treasures of the king’s house. 16 At that time Hez·e·ki′ah cut off the doors of the temple of Jehovah and the doorposts that Hez·e·ki′ah the king of Judah had overlaid and then gave them to the king of As·syr′i·a. (NWT)
www.jw.org
Has the NWT online and explanations back ten years
*** w87 7/15 p. 6 Building Faith to Move Mountains ***
Consider just one example of how archaeology has confirmed the Bible record. At 2 Kings 18:13-15, we read: “In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib the king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and proceeded to seize them.” At that time “the king of Assyria laid upon Hezekiah the king of Judah three hundred silver talents and thirty gold talents.” In confirmation, during the 19th century archaeologist A. H. Layard discovered what is called King Sennacherib’s Prism. Its cuneiform text reads: “As for Hezekiah the Jew, who did not submit to my yoke, 46 of his strong, walled cities, . . . I besieged and took. . . . I added to the former tribute, and laid upon him as their yearly payment, a tax . . . 30 talents of gold and 800 talents of silver.” A remarkable corroboration of the Bible record, differing only in the amount of the silver tax!



*** w69 3/1 p. 157 Answering the Challenge to True Worship ***
What actions did king Hezekiah and his people take in the face of the Assyrian threats, having what meaning in modern times?
As a delaying tactic King Hezekiah at first paid some tribute. (2 Ki. 18:13-16) In like manner Jehovah’s people today, when threatened by nationalistic forces, move cautiously in preserving their God-given right to true worship. Under such conditions they do their public witnessing in inconspicuous ways and make return visits on interested persons and conduct Bible studies with them.—Matt. 10:16.
To thwart the enemy invader, King Hezekiah and his people stopped up the springs outside Jerusalem and built a tunnel that brought water underground into Jerusalem. (2 Chron. 32:1-4; 2 Ki. 20:20) Likewise the “faithful and discreet slave” has protected the flow of spiritual waters of truth. By means of worldwide publishing activity, whether aboveground or underground, it has made this spiritual provision available to God’s people despite bitter opposition.
Further, King Hezekiah went into the temple to pray and consulted the prophet Isaiah. (2 Ki. 19:1, 2) Similarly today, God’s people find strength and comfort in times of stress in association with fellow worshipers at Jehovah’s spiritual temple. (Heb. 10:23-25) They also inquire of the “faithful and discreet slave” organization as to the right course to take.—Matt. 24:45-47.
*** w68 3/15 pp. 170-171 par. 9 True Worship Under Challenge ***
of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib the king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and proceeded to seize them.” In warding off the immediate threat, Hezekiah agreed to pay tribute to Sennacherib, and he even cut off the overlaid doors and doorposts from Jehovah’s temple, in order to make this payment. (2 Ki. 18:13-16) No doubt this was part of Hezekiah’s theocratic war strategy, a move to gain time, and to put him in a better position to grapple with the enemy. Likewise, today, there are occasions when Jehovah’s witnesses have to move cautiously in preserving their God-given right to true worship. In strongly nationalistic countries, open house-to-house or magazine witnessing is not always possible, and Jehovah’s people may have to yield this door of service to the enemy. However, by incidental witnessing, park witnessing, back-calling and studying with those known to be interested, and by other means, they continue their precious service to Jehovah, often at great personal cost.
 +1 / -0
macys
macys 9 hours ago

I can not wait to go to the 2016 District Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, said nobody.

Loyalty = code word for "Give us your money!"
 +5 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 9 hours ago

HOW AMAZINGLY DELUSIONAL IS IT!!!!
Publishers spend thousands of hrs and get get someone down the street to come to 1 meeting - Yes handing out flyers (by the way cultish looking ones) indiscriminately is going to convince someone to drive an Hr or more to go to some Convention with people they usually hide from?
Can there be a more colossal waste of time?
Can there be a more disrespectful way to waste hrs of people's lives doing this?

If you got a 3% success rate (good rate for a business mailer) then you could justify it maybe.
But NO ONE goes to conventions because of a crap flyer. NO ONE goes to meetings cus they missed out on that but they will see what its about locally.
It's not a Joke - its a horrible and well thought out way to control the lives of JWs.
JWs pay the society with hrs of there life, then must report that time, and then are pressured to do more.
 +4 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 9 hours ago
By the way - now its a Free Public Event?
Really? What happened to it being The Public Talk?
Deceptive much?
 +2 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 9 hours ago

The hotel stay, the restaurants afterwards and the company will be very nice. However, there will be a lot of blah, blah, blah in between.
Too bad I cannot miss the Friday session and save a vacation day from work.
DY
 
ctrwtf
ctrwtf 8 hours ago

Where is the bullet point advertising for this feature:
An afternoon spent listening to old men ramble on about how you dress, what movies you watch, the evils of pornography, the need for more contributions, using too many paper towels in the restroom and the need to do more, more, more.......
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 8 hours ago

7 billion people are about to be toast - and our topics are Porn, Education is Bad, Vampires are Bad.
Thats our Trinity these days.
Just what Christ would be talking about.
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
you saw it here first!.
.



Related Topics
wifibandit
Warwick Project Update Email
by wifibandit 4 months ago
OrphanCrow
Spokane 2016 Convention dates - "darkest weekend"
by OrphanCrow a month ago
kepler
Another problem with Daniel
by kepler 4 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5673033662464000/2016-regional-convention-invite-first-look?page=2&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ 2016 Regional Convention - Invite First Look
/  





 

2016 Regional Convention - Invite First Look
by pixel 15 hours ago 46 Replies latest 28 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
label licker
label licker 6 hours ago

First they say they are the faithful and discreet. Then they say all authority has been given to them in heaven and on earth(which Jesus stated for himself) Now they say the publishers are to minister to the holy ones which are them.(recent news at the Canadian zone visit), The bible states that we are to minister to Jesus.
WAKE UP lurkers! JW.Org wants you to be loyal to them only. Start reading your bibles on your own.
 +3 / -0
SadElder
SadElder 5 hours ago

A feature length film.... 3 minutes of people walking around in cheap, poorly designed fake beards followed by 15 minutes of do more and 35 minutes of gives us all your money.
Sorry, not for me.

 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 hours ago

Anyone notice a similarity between the invitation and....



DD
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 hours ago

MacGruber as Hezekiah!!!! Hells, yeah!!!!!
DD
 
zeb
zeb 2 hours ago

"An afternoon spent listening to old men ramble on about how you dress, what movies you watch, the evils of pornography, the need for more contributions, using too many paper towels in the restroom and the need to do more, more, more......."
But,....Lincolns, ' Gettysburg Address,'
 Jesus, 'Sermon on the Mount'
Churchills, 'Battle of Britain speech,'
Martin Luther Kings.."I have a dream" speech.
Nelson Mandela's inauguration speech.
What do these addresses have in common ? They lasted about 20 minutes. The wt addresses are notable by a terrible rambling and never using one word if they can use 50.
 
JRK
JRK 2 hours ago

Works for me just like Syrup of Ipecac.
JK
 
Listener
Listener 28 minutes ago
"No collection will be taken". Who's going to collect all the money dropped in the collection boxes and who's going to collect all the eftpos transactions?
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
you saw it here first!.
.



Related Topics
wifibandit
Warwick Project Update Email
by wifibandit 4 months ago
OrphanCrow
Spokane 2016 Convention dates - "darkest weekend"
by OrphanCrow a month ago
kepler
Another problem with Daniel
by kepler 4 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5673033662464000/2016-regional-convention-invite-first-look?page=3&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Are faded jw;s still counted as members by the sect.?
/  





 

Are faded jw;s still counted as members by the sect.?
by atomant 15 hours ago 6 Replies latest 5 hours ago   watchtower scandals
5
10
20
atomant
atomant 15 hours ago
lm certain the sect would have an accurate figure would be interesting to know how many though.

 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 15 hours ago
They're not counted in any official figures (unless they go to the memorial still). I would have to agree that I'd be surprised if they weren't tracking some (unreleased) stats on the number of inactive ones that are out there and what their demographics are. These stats are probably a big part of the recent push to contact inactive/dfed ones. That, and they probably realize that publishers are much more productive at reactivating latent indoctrination in those that left but didn't find TTATT vs trying to convert someone they talk to at the door.
 
fulano
fulano 14 hours ago

Not every month report = irregular publisher, still counts end of year.
Six months no report= inactive, does not count anymore.
 +4 / -0
blondie
blondie 12 hours ago

irregular...not turn time in one month out of 6
inactive..not turn time in 6 months out of 6 continuous
Going to meetings does not matter in their count as members...just for the CO to use if you need pep talk for the congregation on meeting attendance.
That's why the elder in charge of service records can nag you to turn in at least 1 hour each month and can back date late monthly hours.
Since the WTS does an annual count once a year, if you don't turn in time for 12 months continuous, you won't be in their numbers that year.
 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 8 hours ago

I have not been counted for 8, or 9 years then.
That still does not stop them thinking of us as merely inactive, and therefore every so often we get a knock on the door by some JW hoping we will "come to our senses" LOL.
 +1 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 8 hours ago
And as for me and my household, we will not be counted as JWs. :smile:
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 5 hours ago

According to the latest FAQ section, you are no longer a "witness" if you are inactive. It doesn't matter if you are the most caring, humble, Xian; helping widows and orphans, not REPORTING service = dead man walking.
LET'S REVIEW: IT'S A FRIGGIN CULT!!!!!!!
DD
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Terry
THE MAGIC OF BEING FOOLED (and being REWARDED for it!)
by Terry 4 months ago
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 3 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Dogpatch
International Cultic Studies newsletter- latest news on various cults
by Dogpatch 9 years ago
Esse quam videri
Is the Watchtower Society following in the footsteps of the Catholic Church?
by Esse quam videri a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5659884351651840/faded-jw-still-counted-members-sect






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ My frustration grows at the manipulated ignorant masses.
/  





 

My frustration grows at the manipulated ignorant masses.
by Crazyguy 7 hours ago 3 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
5
10
20
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 7 hours ago

I'm will be the first to admit I'm not a smart guy. Dropped out of high school to help my parents make a living. Who needs an education anyway when the end is so close. Any way my education then came the hard way. But I must say this, I have always been open to ideas and other peoples opinions so I guess that's what helped me to wake up.
Whats so frustrating is realizing how much we're all manipulated. I did not realize until a few days ago that there are Bible believing creationists that believe the earth is only 6000 years old created in a literal 24 Hour day. Then to see how these religious leaders lie and take out of context scientific evidence to the contrary. People just eat up these lies. I see how donting of a task it is to free people like our JW friends and family when the other side is using such tactics to keep the masses ignorant. Very frustrating.
 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin 6 hours ago

Whats so frustrating is realizing how much we're all manipulated.
The fact that you can see this, shows that you ARE smart. "Educated" and "Smart" are not synonyms. Many smart people never went to school.
Give yourself more credit. No matter who we are, someone will put us down - don't do it to yourself, Crazyguy. You may lack a formal education, but that does NOT mean you are dumb! xx
 +4 / -0
the girl next door
the girl next door 6 hours ago
Exactly what talesin said. In my line of work I am surrounded by 8 to 16 years of university graduates. Oh yes they are brilliant in many ways, but some of them are frighteningly ignorant in many other ways even begging for advice from my poorly educated self. Street smarts (or life skill smarts or whatever else you want to call them) can't be bought or taught from a book. Although in my humble opinion, the more you read the wiser you will become. Not just the useless trivia stuff either. Literally, life saving skills. Also, you will discover that the more intelligent you become, they less you will realize you know. :wink: Good luck! I think you're brilliant.
 +2 / -0
baker
baker 6 hours ago
The proof that you are right can be seen by maybe a billion people that follow the Pope like he has magic powers over what people think. Just watching nancy reagan,s funeral and the priest says that she and Ronald Reagan are together and smiling down at us, leads to this misinformation spreading.
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Leela1
Closer/death/Funerals
by Leela1 4 days ago
Pattytheperfect1
First post after a year or two of lurking on this site-Sorry for the length!
by Pattytheperfect1 2 years ago
stephanie61092
Finally posting and I'm FRUSTRATED!!!
by stephanie61092 a month ago
adimmedlight
Getting it out of my system, a VERY long introduction/outpouring..
by adimmedlight 8 months ago
Terry
WORDS MY FATHER NEVER SPOKE
by Terry 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5720589956284416/my-frustration-grows-manipulated-ignorant-masses





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Why all the secrecy in Gods organisation?
/  





 

Why all the secrecy in Gods organisation?
by Truthexplorer 4 hours ago 4 Replies latest 28 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
5
10
20
Truthexplorer
Truthexplorer 4 hours ago
Looking back and seeing all the secrecy and cover ups throughout WT history such as the secret elders books, the branch correspondence guidelines, the shameful lying and deceipt exposed during the ARC questioning, the in-house way of dealing with things, the lack of openness to the media on issues such as blood or child abuse or anything controversial for that matter. Could this relate in some way to Russell's alleged past as a freemason? It seems quite strange that the founder of the bible students quite possibly may have been a freemason, (an organisation well known for its secrecy). Could it be he who laid the original roots as to keepng things 'in house' particularly when controversies arose. As a possible freemason, Russell would have treated secrecy with respect and high importance. This method of thinking would then be passed to the degree with which we see today in the media as outlined above. It seems rather odd that the WT organisation appears to go to such incredible lengths to keep many things 'secret'. Just a theory!

 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 4 hours ago
All cults practice secrecy. The watchtower society is a cult, ergo it practices secrecy. Try not to over think it.
 
RichardHaley
RichardHaley 2 hours ago
It is only logical that and organization that is manipulative and misleading would also have secrecy in their bag of tricks.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 2 hours ago
Damn strait, just picked my wife's car bring it home,.need a ride back to pick up mine. Anyway she's not home nobody is, call her and my son all phones are off. She's off with the family watching the monthly broadcast at the hall. Doesn't tell me or anything, as if I don't know. She's done it now twice, she's gone and done other things as well all hush hush big secret. I bet she thinks that I don't know two of my boys are having a Bible study with a MS. Its all just so stupid especially since I have never stopped her or the family from going or doing anything JW.
 
Listener
Listener 28 minutes ago
CrazyGuy, I don't know how you can allow your boys to have a study with an MS and it's even worse that you are not even home. It is inappropriate, at the very least he should have his wife with him.


 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
John Aquila
The Angels will guide a nuclear bomb away from the Governing Body!
by John Aquila 4 months ago
Cold Steel
Jehovah or Jesus: Who Is To Come?
by Cold Steel a month ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
azor
Thoughts on letter to siblings
by azor 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5205270653304832/why-all-secrecy-gods-organisation





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Latest on Greg Stafford
/  





 

Latest on Greg Stafford
by Nitty-Gritty 3 hours ago 2 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
5
10
20
Nitty-Gritty
Nitty-Gritty 3 hours ago

For all those who know who Greg Stafford is/was
The former "apostate/apologist and author of Three Dissertations and other books, is on page 2 of the March 2016 meeting work book.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/jw-meeting-workbook/march-2016-mwb/meeting-schedule-mar7-13/welcome-memorial-guests/
 +0 / -1
C0ntr013r
C0ntr013r 3 hours ago
Not sure it is him, maybe someone who looks similar?
 +1 / -0
Nitty-Gritty
Nitty-Gritty 2 hours ago
No. I have it on good authority that it is him.

 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
new boy
My Bethwl Experience Part 11
by new boy 2 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 4 months ago
new boy
My Bethel Experience Part 6 with new info.
by new boy 2 months ago
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 3 months ago
sowhatnow
fun with scriptures
by sowhatnow a month ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5688248315674624/latest-on-greg-stafford





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Yesterday, Colorado JW, Ralph Candelario, found guilty (of murdering his JW wife) on all counts & tampering w/evidence
/  





 

Yesterday, Colorado JW, Ralph Candelario, found guilty (of murdering his JW wife) on all counts & tampering w/evidence
by AndersonsInfo 5 hours ago 2 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower scandals
5
10
20
AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 5 hours ago

Ralph Candelario is a JW. He murdered his JW wife (his second wife) around January 2014 in Walsenburg, Colorado. His first wife disappeared and has never been found but the jury was not permitted to know this.
Prosecutor called in Canadian Professor and former JW, Jim Penton (author of Apocalypse Delayed), to testify as an expert witness. He answered questions about the JW culture. Judge and jury paid rapt attention to his answers as he clarified JW disfellowshipping policies, etc.
Dateline covered the trial which ended yesterday.
http://www.westword.com/news/why-dateline-nbc-is-covering-bizarre-ralph-candelario-murder-trial-7623862
----
http://www.thechronicle-news.com/local/candelario-found-guilty-of-murder-on-all-counts/article_e3b19ff0-e751-11e5-9218-0fb37768aaa3.html
Posted: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:24 pm
Candelario found guilty of murder on all counts Steve Block The Chronicle-News
Ralph Candelario was found guilty of First Degree Murder and Tampering with Evidence Thursday afternoon at the Las Animas County Courthouse. Candelario, showed no visible signs of emotion as Third Judicial District Chief Judge Claude A. Appel read the unanimous verdict.
Candelario was found guilty in the bludgeoning death of his wife, Pamela Candelario, at their Walsenburg home on the night of Jan. 15-16, 2014. His sentencing hearing will be held at 4 p.m. on Tuesday, March 15, at the Huerfano County Courthouse in Walsenburg.
Chief Judge Appel polled each individual member of the jury after the verdict was announced, and asked them if they had voted Candelario guilty, and each of them said they had voted guilty. Judge Appel thanked the jury members and met with them after the verdict was announced, giving each of them a certificate of appreciation for their service and a small gift. In his instructions to the jurors after the verdict was announced, Judge Appel told them they could speak to anyone they wanted about what had happened during the trial, but told them that if they faced any criticism, they should immediately report it to him. He also thanked all of the prosecution and defense attorneys for their thoroughness and professionalism throughout the course of the nearly two-week trial.
“I just want to say publicly to the attorneys present that I want to thank you for your professionalism and thoroughness in this case,” Judge Appel said. “All of you did great jobs, and it’s been a pleasure sharing this courtroom with all of you.”
Afterwards, Prosecuting Attorney Ryan Brackley of the Boulder County District Attorney’s Office, was asked about Judge Appel’s compliments. Attorney Brackley said he was pleased to hear what the judge had to say.
“It felt great. We found the defense to be excellent trial attorneys,” Brackley said. “They did a great job, and Mr. Candelario deserved the best defense that could be afforded to him and they certainly gave him that.”
Candelario published a lengthy letter in an area newspaper, claiming he was innocent of the crime. Brackley was asked if he felt that letter had helped or hurt his defense on the murder charge.
“It never helps anyone when they lie,” he said.
He was asked what he thought of the spacious courtroom in Trinidad, and he said it was the most beautiful he had ever seen.
“In a long legal career that’s taken me all over the country, this courtroom is the most beautiful I’ve ever seen. It was a fantastic setting for a trial,” he said.
Asked if he felt justice had been served in the Candelario murder trial, he had this to say.
“Justice is always served every time a jury comes down with a verdict.”
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 5 hours ago

DAY-UMM!!! His defense team should have hired Monica Applewhite!! LOL!!!!
Also, it's AWESOME that Mr. Penton was involved! That is EXACTLY what needs to be done in every case against a JW or the WTBTS!! Someone tell the ARC about Mr. Penton! He's the Anti-Applewhite!!
DD
 +3 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 4 hours ago

It is very interesting that the Prosecutor called in a person (exJW) to testify about JW culture, and procedures regarding disfellowshipping...... Was this man DF'd before?
It says the jury 'paid rapt attention to his answers'! Just as the iron curtain of Russia eventually crumbled, maybe the world will be able to see behind the curtain of JW.BORG!
 +1 / -0

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Terry
THE OAF and the ONE-LEGGED MAN
by Terry 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Dogpatch
"How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
by Dogpatch 5 years ago
Terry
HOMECOMING (The story of two people I met in a bar)
by Terry 3 months ago
Listener
CEDARS (Again) Is it really about religious beliefs?
by Listener 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6293807029026816/yesterday-colorado-jw-ralph-candelario-found-guilty-murdering-his-jw-wife-on-all-counts-tampering-w-evidence






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ A faded JW about to see the Circuit overseer
/  





 

A faded JW about to see the Circuit overseer
by pleaseresearch a day ago 30 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch a day ago

So my mum who is in and really is finding it hard that I have left and faded. Shes asked me if I want to the the Circuit overseer next week.
I have never met him and this is more my mum wanting me to get my problems I have with the organisation out. But should I share everything I've learnt or what?
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

Do NOT meet...DO NOT talk with him!
Why give power to someone who has no authority over you?
The conversation will only go one way....
 +13 / -0
pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch a day ago

I don't want this guy to have a reason to bring me in for a judicial meeting. I hope he wouldn't. As it stands I still see my mum and that's the only reason why I'm still on the books as a JW. But I don't go to meetings, I haven't for the past 4 years.
 +1 / -0
JRK
JRK a day ago

Nothing good can come from meeting with him.
JK
 +11 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

If you haven't gone for 4 years, you have made the break!
By getting involved in a meeting or discussion of any sort, you will be opening the floodgates and giving them reason to think they have power or authority over you again.
 +17 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 a day ago

Your mom obviously wants to help solve your problems so that you return to the safety of the fold and escape Armageddon. What she probably doesn't realize is that she is setting you up for disfellowship and shunning long term. Explain the consequences of such a meeting to her and refuse to meet with anyone about your situation.
 +14 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp a day ago
DON'T DO IT!!! SAY NOTHING! PLEAD THE FIFTH!
 +10 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped a day ago
Looks like your week just got busy, you came down with the flu, and depression is keeping you down. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose here. Make an excuse and do not meet with them. If you somehow find yourself in their presence, do not tip your hand or you'll be labeled an apostate and disfellowshipped. Run from this "opportunity".
 +9 / -0
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once a day ago

Faded means you give them power when you meet with him. He will have another elder on hand just in case you confess, trust me. Don't do it. Have something come up and miss the meeting. You know how it works, don't be in denial thinking they really have your interests in mind. Its all about "misery loves company!" DO NOT GO! Just say no!



 +5 / -0
Dagney
Dagney a day ago

Tell mom you've taken it to prayer with Jehovah, and it is between him and you. Have her know you appreciate and understand her concern, and just continue to reassure her everything will be fine. There is really no need to meet with the CO. Don't do it.
I never wanted to make my poor mom worry about me more than the WT would make her worry. They don't deserve it.
Good luck to you.
 +10 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter a day ago
I second Dagney. Thats the most loving response you can give her without giving in. Bless you for caring about her feelings in this. Sometimes we get so angry that we are ready to toss almost anything associated with the org-but not most moms! If she is still talking to you, do your best to reasonably keep that relationship. The older she gets, the harder the reality of the WT failings will hurt her. None of them will help her! I am keeping my relationship with my mom because though I don't "need" anything from her, I love her and worry about her well being. I have been tempted to let her issues hurt me and our relationship irrecocably before, but ultimately, they are our MOM's!
 +5 / -0
zeb
zeb a day ago

AAARRGGH! what is it with wt that it produces such helicopter mothers!
In all my days I have never seen an outfit like it.
 +2 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry a day ago

Agree with DO NOT MEET.
Dagney offers good advice.

 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

I had a good relationship with the CO when I began having doubts.
Then we got a new guy and one of the elders said he would like to meet with me to try to help. He was an arrogant prick and left instructions with the elders to see to it I was DFd for apostasy.
So NO don't do it.
Once again NO!
 +11 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 a day ago
If the CO contacts you tell him you are not prepared to meet for personal reasons (i.e. you don't particularly want to be shunned for the rest of your life by your mom) but that if your situation changes ( i.e. you lose your marbles) you will let them know.
 +6 / -0
karter
karter a day ago
What JRK said.

 +3 / -0
Magnum
Magnum a day ago
I also say DO NOT MEET. But I don't think you owe anybody any excuses. To provide excuses, to me, gives the impression that they have some kind of control over you and that you have to be excused from meeting their requests. I would just say in a nonchalant way "oh, no thanks" and then walk away or change the conversation.
 +6 / -0
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 a day ago
DONT DO IT!!!!!

 +5 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite a day ago

I dealt with some COs during my fade, but I knew how the game was played. My circumstances were very different from anything "normal". In my case, the first was an a$sho!e of a CO when I was still an elder who helped start my fade. Then we had a sub-CO who was "nice" and requested to meet with me privately. Turned out he was a rather condescending prick and made it easier for me to continue my fade. Then yet another new CO requested to meet with me privately. He actually admitted the local elders were idiots and he asked me for advice. He left the circuit just a couple of months later. Yes, it was something I said.
At this point, I would never meet with another CO, nor would I encourage anyone else to. Why bother? The bad COs will only make you hate WT more. The good COs will just tell you jokes or listen sympathetically if you talk. They are just WT middle managers, nothing more.

 +8 / -0
Lost and adrift
Lost and adrift  a day ago

DON'T DO IT!
I made that mistake. ...now I'm df !
By meeting ur putting urself back under the authority' of congregation or something and they can execute u
 +8 / -0

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 3 months ago
pixel
INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
by pixel 5 months ago
sir82
Now you don't even have to go to the Kingdom Hall - ALL meetings to be recorded & available on jw.org (if you have a password)
by sir82 4 months ago
Lostandfound
...and other Animals 2
by Lostandfound 2 months ago
The Searcher
Elders now ORDERED by the Org to fleece the sheep
by The Searcher 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5751556133617664/faded-jw-about-see-circuit-overseer





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ A faded JW about to see the Circuit overseer
/  





 

A faded JW about to see the Circuit overseer
by pleaseresearch a day ago 30 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG a day ago

I wouldn't do it. I orchestrated a meeting becuase I had started to learn TTATT and I HAD to know if all the cult stuff would really happen.
As soon as they said "amen", the witch-hunt began. Elders are Elders becuase they either worship the ORG/GB, or they have no backbone. The root cause of each condition is DELUSION.
The C.O is an Elder too. He's not going to magically be some level-headed, reasonable, non-judgmental minister who accepts you as you are. Best case scenario, he forgets about you, writing you off as someone Jeehoober will judge.
DD
 +6 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

No! NO! NOOOOOO! 1000 times NO!
Hopefully you will listen to the UNANIMOUS advice you have gotten here.
Good luck,
Doc

 +5 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle a day ago
Nope. Don't do it. Nope, nope, nope! Not a good idea. 4 years is a successful fade. It will be the undoing. For the sake of your mum, Noooooo!
 +5 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose a day ago




 +3 / -0
Spectre
Spectre a day ago

I couldn't care less what happens to me anymore, since I've been out for 20 years now, so if it was me I'd meet with them for entertainment purposes.
I'd say: The year is 2016. It's over a hundred years since 1914. How is the JW religion anything but a dead religion? Do you really believe that overlapping generation crap?
But that's just me.

 +4 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

I second what others have said confirming that the CO will BRING ANOTHER ELDER with him, and they will entrap you into saying something that will hang you!
You WILL NOT be allowed a second person present though, nor will you be allowed to record it in any way.
Trust me...Ive seen it many times!
 +1 / -0
pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch a day ago
I just want to say thank you ever so much for your replies and honesty regarding this potential CO meet. I think the No vote wins, hands down.
 +6 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
I had the same scenario when I faded I hadn't attended any meetings/FS whatsoever for some time I believe the CO was called Anthony Kendall, never met the guy before, my wife spoke to him and he had agreed to want to meet with me, I had heard he was a decent one not like to two jumped up idiots before him, I declined.
 +2 / -0
atomant
atomant 20 hours ago
Stand up for yourself and expose the mothers for what they are.

 
ToesUp
ToesUp 18 hours ago

Great decision Pleaseresearch.
An Elder (COBE) tried several times to "meet" with us. I guarantee you, he had a bundle of rope in his rolley bag with the noose already set to go. No way, no how!
 +3 / -1
jehobi
jehobi 18 hours ago
I agree with everyone here bro. Don't meet with them ever.

 +1 / -1

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
so my mum who is in and really is finding it hard that i have left and faded.
shes asked me if i want to the the circuit overseer next week.. i have never met him and this is more my mum wanting me to get my problems i have with the organisation out.
but should i share everything i've learnt or what?.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 3 months ago
pixel
INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
by pixel 5 months ago
sir82
Now you don't even have to go to the Kingdom Hall - ALL meetings to be recorded & available on jw.org (if you have a password)
by sir82 4 months ago
Lostandfound
...and other Animals 2
by Lostandfound 2 months ago
The Searcher
Elders now ORDERED by the Org to fleece the sheep
by The Searcher 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5751556133617664/faded-jw-about-see-circuit-overseer?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I no longer feel smart as a JW, I feel dumb...
/  





 

I no longer feel smart as a JW, I feel dumb...
by thedepressedsoul a day ago 22 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul a day ago

I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way but I use to at least feel smart as a JW. When I went to Thursday night meetings, I at least felt like I was a student, that I was learning how to speak publicly, I could prepare my own comments, I could answer points that I learned from the weekly bible reading. I felt like at the door, a JW could put up a fight.
Anymore, I just feel like I'm being treated like an idiot, being a JW. I even feel like an "idiot" studying for the meetings.
We had a meeting for field service recently. An old time brother lead the group. He prepared how to put up a defense if someone at the door questions a certain way our bible is translated. He pulled out the Kingdom Interlinear, showed how the Greek texts were written and how it was translated. I actually felt like it was something in depth for once! To my surprise, all morning I heard nothing but fellow JW's making fun of this brother. How "no one will actually argue with us at the door over that" or "he's an old timer". While they were true, it still shocked me. The old time brother may not even know that they are no longer printing that book. This brother spent his whole life, dedicated, just to be mocked for how in depth he used to study.
The new Thursday nights is even worse! You no longer give what you learned from the bible reading. It's two pre-made answers followed by two specific questions. It's no longer what you found in your reading. The demos are now videos, in between demos it even says, "Take householder information" on the screen. They are such basic, and simple presentations. They even have to tell you to take information? I just feel dumb sitting there and when I prepare. The Watchtower has gotten even worse. I'm not even sure the point of it anymore. It's more about gloating about the organization and doctrine, then actually teaching you something. People just re-repeat the paragraph for their answers.
Cart witnessing we're being taught not to get into any doctrine issues but to just focus on getting the individuals information and leaving him with literature. In door to door if someone argues, we just leave now.
I don't believe this crap, I am stuck in and I feel like I am being treated like a pre-schooler with how they are setting everything up. Better yet, they tell you not to go to college... Can't say I'm feeling like I am getting the "best education" as they like to put it.
Sorry for the rant!


 +24 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

Being a clone and a robot doesn't make one smart....
Being an individual who can think, reason and research facts for oneself...Well, THAT is smart!
 +6 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

When they went into more detail with their literature and meeting talks it wasn't because the information was more intellient it was just bolder and more unapologetic in its lies. The dumbing down of the information you are observing just means they know they can't get away with as much anymore so they keep it vague and superficial.
They want you to feel dumb, but you are not dumb the information is dumb.
 +13 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration a day ago
They used to require you to know the doctrine. Now as long as you can say jw.org and hand out pieces of paper you are qualified. Oh and OBEY whatever the WT says.
 +11 / -0
Naoscillator
Naoscillator a day ago

The dumbing down of the information you are observing just means they know they can't get away with as much anymore so they keep it vague and superficial.
Couldn't have said it better. This is especially true of the last couple of times they tried to tackle evolution in the magazines.
 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

The WTS has always been able to exploit people's ignorance of even what the bible says with intelligent honesty as a means to lure people into their pertaining version of bible wisdom, so they too can be turned into the organization's public sales representatives .

These doctrines were set to attract attention but they were not in binding accordance to what the bible really says or meant to say, most bible theologians today would agree to that.
Did the WTS's training help people to be able to talk to others in discussion ?
I would say yes if the person gave public talks and went out in service often, I did.

 +3 / -0
TheMark
TheMark a day ago

In the past it only seemed in depth because they had all these calculations and prophecy interpretations applied to themselves. They kept going on about all that 1914 stuff until it became evident to everyone that the generation was not what they thought it was. After that, maybe starting 1994 or so, they had nothing left to say.
 +7 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

The WTS sold a tainted commercialized version of the Gospel devised specifically to support the proliferation of the literature the organization published.
The ongoing pressing indoctrination to those doctrines created the reaction of what the WTS leaders wanted and expected.

So one shouldn't feel overly strung out with guilt or shame for being involved in this somewhat commercialized indoctrination. On the other hand better to be awoken to this reality of it and carry on with self respect and personal integrity .
I feel the Watchtower Corporation is on its way of winding down to a mere shadow of itself in next few years, ironically it will be the truth that is making this causative effect.

 +4 / -0
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions a day ago

I can appreciate the rant!
My wife feels similarly as you. Everything presented at the meetings is simplistic and dumbed down.
But I think you should feel smart, just for the fact you know this stuff is dumb! Others think it's thre greatest thing since sliced bread. . . .
 +14 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

thedepressedsoul - I sympathise with your feelings. The rot began in the early 80s with the release of the "Reasoning" book. We were instructed that when a "householder" raised an objection to get the book out and read the answer.
I was a pioneer at the time and I never took the book out ever. I prided myself on being able to answer anything from the bible alone. It seems to be 100 times worse now. I couldn't stand it.
 +9 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a day ago
I have met the brother who wrote the insight books as well as other stuff . He said the ones left are just idiots. With out fred franz, dulap, franz and a couple other that all left or died theres no one left to write anything of substance.
 +9 / -0
Magnum
Magnum a day ago

Good rant. Don't apologize; I enjoyed it.
The new Thursday nights is even worse! You no longer give what you learned from the bible reading. It's two pre-made answers followed by two specific questions. It's no longer what you found in your reading.
That's because they want it all controlled. They know their doctrine has too many holes in it. Can you imagine what the meetings would be like if the weekly Bible reading was completely open to honest analysis, questioning, etc.? The org fears that so it formats the meetings such that that can't happen.
Even though I admire the older brother and prefer the old-timers like him and I agree with your general point, the sad truth is that what the old brother did was probably not really "in depth". He probably just pointed to single word translations and doesn't know anything about grammar, syntax, etc. - about the way whole clauses, sentences, and passages are translated. He probably couldn't in the least show that the NWT is well-translated.
JWdom is embarrassingly dumbed down now, but as I look back, I realize we were really "dumb" in the older days, too, even though the material was meatier. We thought we were Bible scholars, but I now realize that was an illusion.
sparrowdown: When they went into more detail with their literature and meeting talks it wasn't because the information was more intellient it was just bolder and more unapologetic in its lies. The dumbing down of the information you are observing just means they know they can't get away with as much anymore so they keep it vague and superficial.
Excellent insight and analysis! It was just bolder back then, and it had a confident, unapologetic, almost cocky tone. You're so right. The dumbing down is because they know now that if they try that bold, really specific stuff, they'll get pulverized and exposed online, in arguments, etc.
thedepressedsoul: Cart witnessing we're being taught not to get into any doctrine issues but to just focus on getting the individuals information and leaving him with literature. In door to door if someone argues, we just leave now.
That's because of what sparrowdown said (see above). The boldness is gone. They (the org and individual JWs) run from challenges now.
If JWs are right, then doesn't it seem that they should be getting bolder, louder, more confident, etc. since with every passing day they supposedly get closer to the end??? Instead, they get weaker, wimpier.
TheMark: In the past it only seemed in depth because they had all these calculations and prophecy interpretations applied to themselves. They kept going on about all that 1914 stuff until it became evident to everyone that the generation was not what they thought it was. After that, maybe starting 1994 or so, they had nothing left to say.
I agree
cofty: We were instructed that when a "householder" raised an objection to get the book out and read the answer. I was a pioneer at the time and I never took the book out ever. I prided myself on being able to answer anything from the bible alone.
Exactly the same with me.
It seems to be 100 times worse now. I couldn't stand it.
I agree that it is way worse now, and I couldn't stand it, either. It got so dumbed down that I just couldn't take it anymore; I had to get out of there.
 +8 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

The other thing to be aware of is that ignorant people are easier to control. Do yourself a favor and research all WT teachings using non-WT sources. Really get your teeth into it and you will be shocked at how deceptive they are.
 +6 / -0
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 a day ago

Don't apologize. Your rant echos my thoughts as well as many others. Even my still very "in" JW mother says that the information presented in the literature and at the meetings is "fluff". The society knows that the new converts can't handle anything that involves much Bible research and merely relies on pulling on their heart strings. It's pathetic, really.

 +5 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite a day ago


When I went to Thursday night meetings, I at least felt like I was a student, that I was learning how to speak publicly, I could prepare my own comments, I could answer points that I learned from the weekly bible reading.
Judging from your OP, you are also a good writer! You're still smart. It's the organization that's gotten dumb. It's a 19th century apocalyptic sect that has survived into this 21st century by evolving. After all of their failed prophecies and now all the information on the Internet, they can't attract intelligent new recruits. So they have to go with "simplified" everything and appeal to emotions rather than intellect.

 +12 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

They used to be much better disguising themselves as a religion. The internet has blown their cover. Now they are just a publishing & real estate empire in a clown's masquerade as a quasi religion (cult -- everyone in the "world" sees them as a weird cut).
Doc

 +7 / -0
EndofMysteries
EndofMysteries a day ago

we're being taught not to get into any doctrine issues......In door to door if someone argues, we just leave now.
Pretty soon it will be a DFing matter if you get into doctrine or discuss anything if anybody brings up opposition or counter argument. The GB will say something about how satan has become super smart and has taught all the worldly people lies so powerful if anybody has a discussion with one who aren't sheep bible students who will unquestionably accept anything they are told, then it's as bad as talking to an apostate, etc. They are getting desperate since anybody who googles jehovah's witnesses will know more then members themselves.
 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago
I suspect that people who refuse to comply with the dumbing-down of the cult are the most likely to leave in the near future. Those who stay are mostly interested in being part of a very bad social club.
 +3 / -0
Wonderment
Wonderment a day ago

George Carlin, the comedian, used to say that government leaders everywhere want their people smart enough so they can be productive and follow directions, but not so smart to a degree where they can easily perceive the overall state of corruption ever-present in their governments.
The same with the WT Society. They want their followers to be equally productive and follow directions at all costs, but they don't to want their followers smart enough where they can easily sense on their own the fragile doctrinal base supporting the WT Society. No deep study! No private studying without the faithful and discreet slave guiding them. Thus, the ‘dumbing down’ of their message as a result.

 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 21 hours ago

I like your comments depressedsoul
The Watchtower has gotten even worse. I'm not even sure the point of it anymore.
It does seem to be functionally pointless. Their one claim for existence was to announce 1874 as the invisible coming of Christ! If it was created to serve the God of the universe (as if he needed helpers) then the JW organization over their entire history have instead pitifully misled mankind.
It's more about gloating about the organization and doctrine, then actually teaching you something.
The fact they gloat over the achievements and doctrines which they consider significant, indicates the lack of any external acclaim, for no one outside thinks them to be worthwhile. And the shameful and offensive boasting which so characterizes the org today, indicates the insecurity and inadequacies of a fumbling leadership declining in influence.
All they know is blind dogma and indoctrination...archetypal blind guides is what they are.

 +2 / -0

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
ILoveTTATT2
Analysis of Brooklyn Eagle Articles related to Miracle Wheat
by ILoveTTATT2 16 days ago
pale.emperor
The Curious Case Of Brother B
by pale.emperor 14 days ago
John Aquila
Is the WT SLOW-ly Changing the importance of the Door to Door preaching work to something more profitable?
by John Aquila 6 months ago
pixel
INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
by pixel 5 months ago
Watchtower-Free
Latest Leaked BOE letter to Elders Oct. 4th
by Watchtower-Free 6 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5748000974438400/no-longer-feel-smart-jw-feel-dumb





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ I no longer feel smart as a JW, I feel dumb...
/  





 

I no longer feel smart as a JW, I feel dumb...
by thedepressedsoul a day ago 22 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower bible
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 16 hours ago

It is soooo liberating knowing TTATT. Actually, makes me feel even smarter now.
It is not all lost as I still share many beliefs with the Org, plus the personality style and niceness of my circle of friends and family makes it all worth the small time sacrifice.
It is overall an okay bunch.
DY
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 16 hours ago

I agree with your OP.
Studying the Watchtower and reading WTS literature don't make people smart, although there obviously must be smart JWs.
I've yet to read this thread in its entirety, but have you considered going to college?
Do you have any academic or artistic interests that you could pursue?
 
lurkernomore
lurkernomore 15 hours ago

This is precisely why I would nearly fall asleep at meetings and go a little nuts when I got home.
Same shit different day, week in week out.
Basically anything post Revelation book aswell as Daniels/Isaiah's prophecy was just mind numbing drivel! Mind you funny how all these 'deep' study books have now been discontinued i.e old light lol.
 +2 / -0

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
i don't want anyone to take this the wrong way but i use to at least feel smart as a jw.
when i went to thursday night meetings, i at least felt like i was a student, that i was learning how to speak publicly, i could prepare my own comments, i could answer points that i learned from the weekly bible reading.
i even feel like an "idiot" studying for the meetings.



Related Topics
ILoveTTATT2
Analysis of Brooklyn Eagle Articles related to Miracle Wheat
by ILoveTTATT2 16 days ago
pale.emperor
The Curious Case Of Brother B
by pale.emperor 14 days ago
John Aquila
Is the WT SLOW-ly Changing the importance of the Door to Door preaching work to something more profitable?
by John Aquila 6 months ago
pixel
INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
by pixel 5 months ago
Watchtower-Free
Latest Leaked BOE letter to Elders Oct. 4th
by Watchtower-Free 6 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5748000974438400/no-longer-feel-smart-jw-feel-dumb?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
/  





 

INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
by pixel 5 months ago 20 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
pixel
pixel 5 months ago

1. The Life and Ministry Meeting will proceed as outlined in the Life and Ministry Meeting Workbook
and according to the instructions that follow.

3. Treasures From God’s Word:

Talk: 10 minutes. The theme and an outline of two or three main points are provided in the
Life and Ministry Meeting Workbook. This talk is to be assigned to an elder or a qualified
ministerial servant. When a new Bible book is scheduled in the weekly Bible reading, a video
will be played to introduce it. The speaker may draw parallels from the video to the
theme. However, he should be certain to cover the additional points noted in the workbook.

Digging for Spiritual Gems: 8 minutes. This is a question-and-answer part to be handled
by an elder or a qualified ministerial servant. Those called on should offer comments of 30
seconds or less.

Bible Reading: 4 minutes or less. This part will be assigned to a brother. The student should
read the assigned material without giving an introduction or a conclusion. The meeting chairman
will be especially interested in helping students to read with accuracy, understanding, fluency,
proper sense stress, modulation, appropriate pausing, and naturalness.

4. Apply Yourself to the Field Ministry:
During the first week of every month, the Prepare This Month’s Presentations part will be presented in place of the three student assignments. At times, the Life and Ministry Meeting Workbook may provide specific settings and instructions for the student presentations, such as telephone witnessing or public witnessing.

Prepare This Month’s Presentations: 15 minutes. Videos of model presentations will be
shown and discussed to prepare the congregation to offer the magazines or the featured publication.
This part will be assigned to an elder or a qualified ministerial servant.

Initial Call: 2 minutes or less. This student presentation may be assigned to a brother or a sister.
When assigned to a brother, the assistant should be a member of his family or a brother in
the congregation. The student should choose a greeting appropriate for the area.

Return Visit: 4 minutes or less. This student presentation may be assigned to a brother or a
sister. When assigned to a brother, the assistant should be a member of his family or a
brother in the congregation. The student and assistant may be seated at a table or be standing.

Bible Study: 6 minutes or less. This student presentation may be assigned to a brother or a
sister. When assigned to a brother, the assistant should be a member of his family or a
brother in the congregation. The student and assistant may be seated at a table or standing.
From time to time, elders may receive this assignment.

5. Living as Christians:
After an opening song, the next 15 minutes of this section will consist of
one or two parts designed to help the audience to apply God’s Word. Unless otherwise indicated, these
parts may be assigned to elders or qualified ministerial servants, with the exception of local needs parts,
which should be handled by elders.

Congregation Bible Study: 30 minutes. This should be assigned to a qualified elder.

6. Concluding Comments: 3 minutes or less. The Life and Ministry Meeting chairman will review
particularly helpful points from the meeting and will preview material to be considered the following
week. He should mention the point from the Life and Ministry Meeting Answer Sheet (lma). He
might mention a question that will be posed on the next week’s meeting, giving the brothers something
to think about and watch for. He might indicate, by way of a reminder, the names of the students who
are assigned to give parts the next week, provided there is time for this. Unless otherwise indicated, any
necessary announcements should be made and any necessary letters should be read to the congregation
by the chairman during his concluding comments. If any announcements cannot be made or letters cannot
be read in the time allotted for the chairman’s concluding comments, he should conserve time in
other ways or ask the brothers handling parts on the Living as Christians section of the meeting to abbreviate
their parts as necessary. (See paragraph 8.) The meeting will conclude with song and prayer.

7. Counsel: Following each of the four student assignments, the Life and Ministry Meeting chairman
has approximately one minute to provide commendation and counsel based on the Ministry School
book. When the chairman introduces a student’s assignment, he will not announce the point of counsel
that the student is working on. However, when the student’s presentation is finished, and after some appropriate
words of commendation, the chairman may announce the point that the student is working on
and state why the student did well on that point or kindly explain why it would be beneficial for the student
to give that particular point further attention. According to the need of each student, additional constructive
counsel based on the Ministry School book may be given privately after the meeting or at another
time, either on the assigned speech quality or on another aspect of the presentation. The chairman
should update the counsel form in the student’s Ministry School book and advise the Life and Ministry
Meeting overseer accordingly.—See paragraphs 11 and 14 for instructions regarding the role of the Life
and Ministry Meeting overseer and the auxiliary counselor.

8. Timing: No part should go overtime, nor should the remarks of the Life and Ministry Meeting
chairman. The student assignments should tactfully be stopped when the time is up. If other parts on
the meeting go overtime, private counsel should be given by the auxiliary counselor. The entire meeting,
including songs and prayers, should last 1 hour and 45 minutes.
9. Visit of Circuit Overseer: When the congregation has the visit of the circuit overseer, the program
should proceed as described in the Life and Ministry Meeting Workbook with the following exceptions:
The Congregation Bible Study portion of the Living as Christians section will be replaced
with a 30-minute service talk given by the circuit overseer. Prior to the service talk, the Life and Ministry
Meeting chairman will review the program just held, preview the following week’s program, make
any necessary announcements, and then introduce the circuit overseer. After the service talk, the circuit
overseer will conclude the meeting with a song of his choice.

10. Week of Assembly or Convention: During the week of an assembly or convention, no congregation
meetings are held. The material scheduled for meetings during such weeks should be considered
individually or as a family.

11. Life and Ministry Meeting Overseer: An elder selected by the body of elders will serve as
the Life and Ministry Meeting overseer. He will be responsible for ensuring that this meeting is well
organized and handled according to these instructions. He should maintain good communication with
the auxiliary counselor. As soon as the Life and Ministry Meeting Workbook for a given month becomes
available, the Life and Ministry Meeting overseer will make the student assignments for that
month. There are four student assignments each week, namely, the Bible Reading assignment during
the Treasures From God’s Word section, and the Initial Call, Return Visit, and Bible Study assignments
during the Apply Yourself to the Field Ministry section. Guidelines for those enrolling as students are
set forth in the Ministry School book, page 282, and these guidelines still apply to the Life and Ministry
Meeting. Each of the student assignments, including the counsel point the student is working on, should
be distributed at least three weeks prior to the date of the assignment by means of the Our Christian
Life and Ministry Meeting Assignment (S-89) form. (Please note that some of the points of counsel on
pages 79-81 of the Ministry School book will not apply to the Bible Reading assignment or to demonstrations.)
Information regarding student assignments for the month should also be conveyed to the appropriate
Life and Ministry Meeting chairmen and, if applicable, to the appropriate counselor for an
auxiliary class.

12. Life and Ministry Meeting Chairman: Each week, one elder will serve as the chairman for
the duration of the Life and Ministry Meeting. He will be responsible for preparing the introductory
and concluding comments. He will also introduce all of the parts and, depending on the size of the body
of elders, he may be responsible for handling certain parts on the meeting as well. The body of elders
will determine which elders are qualified to fill this role. The qualified elders would normally be assigned
as chairmen periodically. Depending on local circumstances, the Life and Ministry Meeting
overseer may be used as chairman more frequently than the other qualified elders. If an elder is qualified
to conduct the Congregation Bible Study, likely he is also qualified to serve as the meeting chairman.
Please keep in mind, however, that the elder who serves as chairman will be required to offer loving
and helpful commendation and counsel to those who have student assignments. The chairman is also responsible
for ensuring that the meeting concludes on time. (See paragraphs 6 and 8.) If the chairman
wishes and if there is adequate space, a standing microphone may be positioned on the platform so that he
may introduce each ensuing part while the brother giving the part is taking his position at the speaker
stand. Likewise, the chairman may wish to sit at a table on the platform when introducing the student assignments
and offering counsel. This may conserve time.

13. Coordinator of the Body of Elders: The coordinator of the body of elders will make assignments
of all meeting parts other than the student assignments. This includes the assignment of the
meeting chairman for each week from among those approved by the body of elders. In cooperation
with the Life and Ministry Meeting overseer, the coordinator of the body of elders should ensure that a
copy of the assignment schedule for the entire meeting is posted on the information board.

14. Auxiliary Counselor: Whenever possible, it is good to use an elder who is an experienced
speaker to fill this role. The auxiliary counselor’s responsibility will be to give private counsel, if needed,
to elders and ministerial servants regarding any speaking assignments they may handle, including
parts on the Life and Ministry Meeting, public talks, and conducting or reading at the Watchtower
Study or Congregation Bible Study. (See paragraph 8.) If there are a number of elders in the congregation
who are capable speakers and teachers, then a different qualified elder may serve as the auxiliary
counselor each year. It is not necessary for the auxiliary counselor to offer counsel after each assignment.

15. Auxiliary Classes: Depending on the number of students, congregations may hold auxiliary
classes for the student assignments. Each auxiliary class should have a qualified counselor, preferably an
elder. Where necessary, a well-qualified ministerial servant may fill in. The body of elders should decide
who may serve in this capacity. The counselor should follow the procedure described in paragraph 7. If
auxiliary classes are held, students should be asked to go to the auxiliary classrooms following the Digging
for Spiritual Gems portion of the Treasures From God’s Word section of the meeting. They should
rejoin the rest of the congregation following the Apply Yourself to the Field Ministry section of the meeting.
Since videos of sample presentations are considered during the first meeting of the month, no auxiliary
classes will be held then, except for foreign-language groups.

16. Videos: Selected videos will be used in connection with this meeting. These will be made
available to elders (and, in some cases, ministerial servants) in the “Event Media” section of jw.org. On
occasion, videos such as those demonstrating sample presentations may be played at meetings for field
service after they have been shown at the Life and Ministry Meeting.

 
insearchoftruth
insearchoftruth 5 months ago
It never ceases to amaze me just how programmed everything is in this organization.
 +3 / -0
DwainBowman
DwainBowman 5 months ago
SOS difernt name! Always renaming stuff!
 +1 / -0
1009
1009 5 months ago
So - basically - only the male student talks are skipped from the program?

 +1 / -0
Doubting Bro
Doubting Bro 5 months ago
Just slightly different but basically TMS. So nothing has really changed other than they can use sisters for 3 parts as opposed to 1?
 +0 / -1
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 5 months ago

Hey Pixel, Where did you get these instructions? Can they be downloaded from the JW site?
 
Island Man
Island Man 5 months ago

It's the same old TMS just under a different name and a slightly adjusted format. All the hype about the TMS being done away with was wrong! LOL. It would have been more accurate to say that the service meeting was done away with - in reality it has just been drastically curtailed to about 15 minutes in length, with some of its features - the offer for the month - being incorporated into the Apply Yourself to the Field Ministry segment.
The Service meeting has always been a bit redundant given that it dealt with skills that were also covered by the TMS. What really separated the service meeting from the TMS is that the TMS dealt with basic generic teaching and preaching skills while the service meeting was more about higher order teaching and preaching skills - knowing when and how to use the basic skills learned in the TMS - and offering specific literature
I think the biggest change has been the logistical combining of the three meetings into one so you only have to sing twice on a thursday instead of 3 times. That adjustment bought them a couple extra minutes
 +3 / -0
Aroq
Aroq 5 months ago

"The student and assistant may be seated at a table or be standing."
What exactly is this? Is there another option?
" I would like to hop on one foot please?"

 +2 / -0
pixel
pixel 5 months ago

StephaneLaliberte,
They are available on their *secret* log-in site.

 +1 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 5 months ago
Island Man, the talks given by brothers that are not ministerial servants or elders have been removed. This is a MAJOR change! I'm sure that more than a few will not like this at all. Obviously, this is a move to control absolutely everything that is said from the platform.

 +2 / -0
pixel
pixel 5 months ago

The "New" mid-week meeting is still a joke and way too convoluted. Too many topics with nothing in common being discussed in one hour and 30 minutes.
By the time the meeting ends, nothing will be remembered from the beginning. Maybe that's why they will have a review at the end?
Stupid meeting. No substance at all. That does not look like worship to me.

 +2 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 5 months ago

Island Man, the talks given by brothers that are not ministerial servants or elders have been removed. This is a MAJOR change! I'm sure that more than a few will not like this at all. Obviously, this is a move to control absolutely everything that is said from the platform
Actually, those talks have been gone for quite some months, replaced with seated presentations using the NWT.
 
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 5 months ago
Seriously, the one good thing they really had... they take that away!
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 5 months ago

Where does someone find a Bible study program that is soooo complex and confusing? Only among Jehovah's Witnesses!
Me thinks me will be missing even more meetings.:):):smile:
Thank you Pixel.
 +1 / -0
Sofia Lose
Sofia Lose 5 months ago

Why did they complicate it like this?
Pure and major BS!!!
SL
 
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 5 months ago

What I don't get is....there are 7 Governing Body members plus 30 Helpers to these GB members. Now that is a sizeable 'think tank'...an organization with some 37 so-called mature spiritual leaders and dare-say 'pillars'. Was this the best they could come up with for the new arrangement for mid-week meeting? I can just hear Jehovah saying to himself....'O My God!'
Yah, no doubt about it Jehovah's Witnesses are in disarray and in a holy-shit-mess!
 
Sabin
Sabin 5 months ago

4) Apply yourself to the field ministry. Videos of MODEL presentations, I find the whole thing funny I just laughed all the way through. We get a real insight to how JDub`s view the people they call on.
JDub) "Hhhheeeelllllloooo, mmmmyyyy nnnnnaaaaammmmeee is SSSSuuusssaaannnnnnnnnneeee."
"Wwwwwwaaaattttt is yyyyoouurrr nnnnaaaammmmmeeee??????????."
Householder) I don't know nufing, I`m a idiot.
Except for Carol, she had read the bible a few times & still managed to know sweet FA about it.
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 5 months ago
FMCLAM!
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 5 months ago
And lame videos at that. I saw the Matthew video on worm-worm-worm jw-dot-borg. And it is a total and complete waste of electricity--I just watched to see if there was any smut worth bashing. As for me, I would rather spend time watching videos on the coming silver price explosion, the banks running the economy into the ground, or that take unorthodox positions on famous history items such as Hitler and Einstein. At any rate, I find them more entertaining than any of the washtowel videos.

 
Oubliette
Oubliette 5 months ago

Yawn!

 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Watchtower-Free
Latest Leaked BOE letter to Elders Oct. 4th
by Watchtower-Free 6 months ago
Jerryh
Romans 6:7
by Jerryh 2 months ago
dubstepped
Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
by dubstepped 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Thoughts on "Our Christian Life and Ministry" meeting
by Saved_JW 5 months ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/502300003/instructions-our-christian-life-ministry-meeting




Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ 2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
/  





 

2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago 2 Replies latest 2 months ago   jw friends
5
10
20
Gorbatchov
Gorbatchov 2 months ago

I found a transcript of an 2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS.
Maybe, you like to read it.
Gorby
On News Radio 620, KTAR this is The God Show.
For the next hour, we’ll be examining the important contemporary issues of your life in spiritual terms. Our guests represent diverse areas in the world of theology. Now, here’s your host, KTAR’s Pat McMann.
Pat: Well hello. Yes, this is Pat McMann. I’m the host of The God Show every Sunday at noon here at News Radio 620, KTAR. And happy New Year! This is our first official 2002 The God Show. And we’re going to depart from our regular format of looking at social issues through theological, liturgical eyes. Just a little bit—most of the time we don’t examine the specific practices of a faith I guess primarily because that’s done and done and done. You can see that on the History Channel and th e Discovery Channel. You hear that over the years on a lot of radio stations. But when it comes to a religion that is massively misunderstood then I think we have an obligation and a responsibility on The God Show to perhaps clarify positions of that faith and clear up some of those misunderstandings. So in this brand new year, rather than focusing on contemporary social issues that effect us, we’re going to do something just a little different and look at the practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Our guest is J R Brown, national spokesperson for the Jehovah’s Witness faith. And he is the director for the Office of Public Information. J R we welcome you to the program and this is Pat McMann and since I came to you, it’s a little different because most of the time I’m used to having the Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door, knock on my door and say "Do you have a minute?" or something like that. So let’s start with that. Why do you come to my door uninvited?
JR: Well, first Pat thank you for very much for having me on this show that’s gracious of you. And I acknowledge the fact that normally we’re looking for you instead of someone looking for us. But we come to your door for one very important reason and that is: we feel there is a message from God that brings good news that all people today need to hear. And since we voluntarily do this as ministers of this gospel, this good news, we look for ‘hearing ears’ in order to present this Biblical message.
Pat: I’ve always wondered, from the public relations standpoint, why you and other missionary oriented religions don’t wait for an invitation? Because it seems to me that the percentages would be that you’d come to a door and we don’t know you’re coming, you’ll probably be interrupting something at home.
JR: Well, this is true but it depends on how important the minister feels the message is. We feel this message is not our own, it’s from God. And so we feel that a more aggressive approach is appropriate. So we seek out people. Now, that’s not novel. You go to primitive Christianity introduced by Jesus Christ –he approached people, whether in their home, or in the marketplace, or by the seashore. When you read the exciting account of the Gospels of the Bible you find he took the initiative, he approached people because he had good news and a God-assigned message. Well likewise, even though we’re very modern-times, we feel the message that’s in the Bible is from God.
Pat: Do you have restrictions on what your members must do within certain areas of latitude? For example, would you approach me in an airport like Hare Krishna’s?
JR: Well, no, we try not to be so intrusive as to be an irritant to people. For example, if there’s places like airports, or malls and we have not been given specific permission to evangelize there, or if there are laws restricting us from openly approaching people there then we basically respect that. And here’s why I would say ‘basically," Pat. Because if I’m in an airport, and maybe I’m traveling in business or some other reason, but I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and you’re sitting next to me, and we strike up a conversation, then I would feel free to speak to you about my beliefs. On the other hand, if I were looking for a site or location to evangelize that day, and they had restrictions in this particular area, I would respect that.
Pat: Now I don’t mean this frivolously, JR, and we’ve just met, but there is a picture in my mind of a Jehovah’s Witness or a pair of Jehovah’s Witnesses coming from their neighborhood to my house and having to wait for the Mormon kids to leave my front door. I mean, do you compete in a missionary capacity for the souls of man?
JR: Not at all, in other words, if we did find by some chance go into an area, and there were Mormons at work there then we would respectfully go to another part of our territory. And you know, Pat actually I’ve had that experience.
Pat: Really?
JR: Yeah, in the early days when I went out to do evangelizing work out in North Carolina it seems the Mormons had assigned to the same town—a little town over on the coast—they had persons in there, and so they were quite active, and so we would try not to get in their way, they would try not to get in ours. We were friendly about it , but we did not want this work to seem to be some sort of a harassment for people. So if we noticed them in a certain section, then we would respectfully go to another one. But there’s one marked difference. They had a time limit on a period of time they would spend in a certain area with individuals whereas we tended to sort of settle in give the one-on-one instruction—what we refer to as ‘home Bible instruction."
Pat: So, you could just ‘wait them out’?
JR: Yes, it was a matter of avoiding conflict. We do not seek confrontation in any way, we do not view ourselves in competition with anyone, because we follow what Jesus said. He said, if you go into a certain city of village, seek out in it those who want to hear or who are rightly disposed to that message. So we’re really looking for an individual who is looking for something spiritual in his life. These are the people we are primarily looking for. At the same time, others are made aware by our presence and activity there, that we are actively evangelizers.
Pat: As the national spokesperson for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, J R Brown is our guest on The God Show this Sunday at noon, and I wonder as you, JR, talk about respect for other religions and their practices and their proselytizing, with only a minute left in this segment I wonder if you can capsulize your relationship with other religions—or is yours the only truth?
JR: Well, we feel we’re different from others in this sense, that we take a direct approach at evangelizing. We do not have really a membership, per se of people who just say "I want to belong to Jehovah’s Witnesses." If we count you, you are an active evangelizer. If you stop, you’re no longer that. So in that way, we’re different. We do not have a class, let’s say of laymen who come to listen to others who are professional preachers.
Pat: I want to get back to that JR when we get back because I want to go into the structure of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and your relationship of the other great faiths of the world; areas of tolerance, moral teaching, the clergy—all of those things that we can learn about today on this very special New Year’s program in twenty-ought two. The God Show, on News Radio 620, KTAR
You’re listening to The God Show, on News Radio 620, KTAR
Pat: Pat McMann once again, speaking with JR Brown. We welcome you all to a kind of unique God Show this Sunday as we look into the practices and the background of a religion that we often talk about and often do so with little knowledge unless we happen to be a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. How big a religion is it by way of numbers, J R Brown, national spokesperson out of Brooklyn New York?
JR: Well, numerically we are an international organization our current practicing members world-wide: 6, 117, 666. But Pat as I mentioned earlier, important to us is that you are active if you are a Witness. If you discontinue that, then we are not like other organizations who continue to count you as a member.
Pat: So I have to be a real participant?
JR: Right, that’s what a Jehovah’s Witness is, a witness actually gives testimony so we’re not seeking to have an impressive number, but we’re seeking to do a work which we feel is a God-assigned work.
Pat: If I want to become a Jehovah’s Witness, is there a series of instructional classes that I have to go to, is there a ritual, is there a baptism?
JR: Well, first of all we would feel it appropriate that you make a study of the Bible because it’s not a matter of saying "I want to become a Jehovah’s Witness",. You have to show you have the knowledge and the proper motivation to carry out this particular work. So what we would do first is put you through a study course, a sort of one on one course. You could have the whole family involved, we enjoy teaching the whole family together, after a period of instructions, say six months to a year, maybe you’re ready to decide if this is what you want to do. It’s totally up to you but if it is your decision to do so, then we sort of advance the training, we give you some instruction how to do the evangelizing work by taking you along. You notice we’re always in twos when we approach the doors. Also, one is training and the other you have there is the trainee.
Pat: I always thought it was a security factor that involves the fact that perhaps no scandal then could be associated with the member of the church.
JR: It does provide security. But it’s also a Biblical pattern. Recall, when Jesus sent his disciples out, first the 12 and then the 70, the Bible says he sent them out in twos. So security is factored in, but at the same time it gives support for the work. And going back to how you originally presented the question, if it’s your desire then that you want to dedicate your life to God, not to an organization, but to Jehovah God, then if you do that, and if you qualify, then we will submit you for the baptism ceremony.
Pat: Here’s a simple question that probably ahs a complex answer, but I’m going to ask you for the short paragraph version.
JR: Okay.
Pat: If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, who are you?
JR: (Pause). Okay, say that once more.
Pat: Okay, if you are a Jehovah’s Witness, if you are an active member, then who are you? Describe being a Jehovah’s Witness, faithful and participating, to someone who has no knowledge of the faith.
JR: Okay, if you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, basically, it’s a lifestyle. First in your life is doing God’s work. As we talked about a little earlier, it’s evangelizing. In order to do that, then you have to continue to read and study the Bible, we have meetings that will keep you abreast with the best way of carrying out the evangelizing work. And you live a good clean moral life. Willing to share what you know everywhere you go in your daily life.
Pat: Sounds like every religion I know.
JR: Well, in other words, it’s the ideal standard that’s presented in the Bible. But of course we know it’s one thing to make a claim, it’s another really to live up to it.
Pat: Where did you come from, who’s the first Jehovah’s Witness?
JR: Well, if you want to look at it from our theological viewpoint, we would go all the way back to Abel, the faithful son of Adam. Why? Because the book of Genesis tells us he was a witness. If you go through the Hebrew prophets, all of them gave a witness. With the coming of Jesus Christ he trained others as Christians, they went out giving a witness. If you come to more modern times, then you would come toward the 1870’s, and a small Bible study group under the direction of Charles Taze Russell , which started out in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania area.
Pat: How long ago?
JR: 1870. At that particular time, that Bible study group started to try to take a look at the Bible in its pure teachings to see what restorations to true worship had to be done. And one important thing that came out of that was something we alluded to earlier and that’s the fact that if you are Christian then you are to be an evangelizer. The idea of separating clergy and laity was not really something that the first Christians did, who were instructed under Jesus Christ and then the apostles, they did everyone..
Pat: Do you have clergy, do you have appointed teachers?
JR: We have appointed teachers, the Bible speaks of them as elders or overseers, and they give instruction in the congregational setting. But you’ll notice, when you’re approached at your door, or in another place, it could be a man, or a woman, or a teenager, even a youngster. And they’re able to the best of their ability to present this message. So we do not discriminate there. Whoever has the desire and wants to serve God this way by giving testimony to his beliefs, then we equip them to the best of their ability to do so.
Pat: Why is it important for Jehovah’s Witnesses to express themselves politically within what you call neutrality? What exactly do you mean by that?
JR: Our views of neutrality are really based on the words of Jesus Christ. He spoke of his followers ands himself as being separate from the world. Now, to clarify that: that does not mean we’re better or more worthy. Why? Because he also said that God loved the world, that is mankind, so much that he gave his only begotten son. But we feel separate as far as being set apart as doing this particular work of evangelizing, to live a moral life, in harmony with what the Bible says. And to show love and concern for our neighbor. Because when we go out evangelizing, we’re motivated by love. I think you realize that most persons do. There’s no pay or financial considerations. But we feel as a loving gesture toward our neighbors, we need to share with them something good that we have.
Pat: Now, does that neutrality within the definition of the Jehovah’s Witness church, does that mean that there are no Jehovah’s Witness office-holders?
JR: We’re separate from the political world. And there’s strong Scriptural support. You’ll recall an occasion when they even wanted to make Jesus a king, and he withdrew because he didn’t see that as his role. So we feel expressing ourselves politically is not our aim. Our aim is to preach good news about God’s Kingdom. And so, that’s where we’re focused. Why? Because we feel that that will answer everybody’s problem as far as government and rulership. That’s the prayer Christians pray for. They pray ‘thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven’.
Pat: And when we get back, I want to find out about the Jehovah’s Witness position on other government service like the military. I want to ask you medical questions, I want to talk about your positions on social issues and we have so little time and so much to discuss about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. All new information to me provided by J R Brown, national spokesperson for the Jehovah’s Witnesses out of Brooklyn. This is the God Show at News Radio 620 KTAR. I’m Pat McMann.
You’re listening to The God Show at News Radio 620 KTAR
Pat: Fascinating program I think, anytime that we learn something about any other facet of the world and particularly something that we coexist with—another faith. Neighbors who call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses and on the God Show we examine that unique form of worship that is unique if you don’t happen to be a Jehovah’s Witness. As I’m sure JR Brown as the national spokesperson for the faith you probably run into more misinformation than information about your faith.
JR: Well, that’s correct Pat that’s why we appreciate this opportunity to clarify some things.
Pat: You have a number of Witnesses right here in the valley, you were just telling me that Phoenix was well represented within the Jehovah’s Witness movement.
JR: Oh very well. We have 70 congregations and our congregation size we keep between one and two hundred. The reason for that is to allow room for visitors as well as to make sure no one gets overlooked and they get individual attention.
Pat: So if I went to the service at any one of the seventy congregations, what would I experience?
JR: All right, first of all you’d see a sign so that’s the meeting time. All of them are open to the public. You walk in and you take a seat. Everything is free no collections are taken.
Pat: Hold on, let’s cover that again. Are you telling me that you are a religion that not only limits the size of its individual congregations but also doesn’t take up collections? So you handle your expenses with tithing?
JR: Not at all, we’ve never taken a collection from our modern-day beginnings and the reason for this is because we feel that if God’s backing the work he will see that we have the resources. When you walk into our meeting place, the Kingdom Hall, most would commonly refer to as a church, we don’t have any Scriptural objection to that term. But you will notice one or two contribution boxes towards the back, there’s a slot on it. If you pass and you want to put in it a voluntary donation that’s between you and God, no one monitors it to see whether you give or do not give and that’s how we support the world-wide work.
Pat: You don’t have a big guy with a legal pad standing right next to it?
JR: No, we haven’t found that necessary thing to do because you know, look at like this Pat; we’re not paying anybody. The teachers or elders, overseers are volunteers. Those you see going door-to-door, they’re volunteers.
Pat: You have no paid clergy at all?
JR: We have no paid employee clergy or anyone.
Pat: Well, you’re a paid employee though aren’t you?
JR: Not really. Why? I’m a volunteer. I give my services working in this office here in New York. We’ve got six thousand others volunteers here in our three complexes. And if we work right here at headquarters and we receive a modest room and a stipend to care for incidental expenses and we are volunteers like everybody else.
Pat: Well, I’ve talked to a lot of directors, a lot of public information officers, and you are the first one that didn’t get a salary. So this is an education to me again even past all the information about your church. Very impressive. The neutrality issue-- I want to get back to that because you were talking about the fact that you do not participate in politics, that it’s against the fundamental teachings of your church ergo: the Bible. What about other government service like the military?
JR: Well, our neutrality extends to all areas of political expression. It’s not just something here in this country, it’s around the world. For example when there was trouble during the second world war, the first world war, we remained neutral so there never was any fear that someone on the battlefield would see one of Jehovah’s witnesses to take a life of another .
Pat: But you must have experienced hostility over the years as a result of that position.
JR: Well, sometimes it’s not understood but it’s not to be interpreted as anti-country or lacking love for our country. Jehovah’s Witnesses certainly love the country where they are. And we’re supportive in other ways. In other words, we’re supportive as good citizens. We pay our taxes. We’re honest. We contribute to support whatever the local efforts are anywhere in the world, and we make things better where we may live. But it’s just, we feel our life is from God. If you’re to give it up, it’s to be in his service. He’s the only one that can restore it. So we feel very strongly about that, our dedication is to God, we love him enough to give our life even as his Son did. He gave his life for mankind, to open up a way to salvation. But we do not feel that the individual differences between nations that might call for the sacrifice of one’s life is something that we are obligated from God to do.
Pat: Is yours the only path to salvation?
JR: Well, when you put it that way, you’re trying to say ‘well, unless someone does exactly as you do, and you say, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, you won’t get life? And our answer to that is no, because God is the judge as to who gets life. Some persons live and die without an opportunity to hear what we’re talking about. There are places we cannot even go and do evangelizing work now. We feel we have a message of truth and people listen to it, respond, and that can put them on the way to life if God judges them as such, but we’re not the judges of others. When you look in Matthew chapter 25, Jesus made it very clear that he is the one that divides the sheep from the goats. He said he is the one that puts the sheep on his favorable side the right, goats on his left, he makes the decision if anyone is worthy of destruction, not us. That’s not our responsibility to pass judgment.
Pat: We’re looking at the Jehovah’s Witnesses with the help of its national spokesperson J R Brown at the Jehovah’s Witness office, the director of the office of public information in Brooklyn New York. And there’s so many things to talk about, particularly clearing up some areas of confusion and curiosity. For example, the Jehovah’s Witness’ position on transfusion. I never did understand that.
JR: Well, it’s something that many may not understand. But it’s a personal conviction that we have and it has biblical support that the Bible makes very clear; that God’s law regarding blood means that blood removed from the body is to be poured out and disposed of. Now that’s something that goes back all the way to when Noah and his family came out of the Ark. Genesis chapter seven there allows them to eat the vegetation and he then said they could eat the animals. But he then specified right then ‘only do not eat its soul. It’s blood’—it was restricted. Later when he developed a relation with the nation of Israel he repeated this, that they could eat the animals but the animal had to be drained of their blood. Later in Christian times in the book of Acts when it came up whether this was something Christians would continue to follow. there in chapter 15 it says ‘do not eat the blood’.
Pat: But what about my baby who has a serious medical problem and the doctor says the only way that we can save him is with a transfusion?
JR: Well, that does not hold up under examination. Often doctors may say that, but you see we have found doctors willing to do surgery using alternatives to blood transfusion; that’s confirmed here and other parts of the world; we publish information on it. We have a current series of three videos that has a number of doctors go on record that they do bloodless surgery. So we can be accommodated. So we do not feel ‘so here we’re giving up your life, or that of your child, if you do not take blood transfusions’. There are alternatives. And there are many doctors doing surgical procedures without blood. We have a number of bloodless centers right in this country so Jehovah’s Witnesses know where their religious wishes will be respected. And Pat, I want to emphasize that our objection is not medical and all the other areas; our objection to blood is Scriptural. It is religious conviction we follow what those Scriptures say on not eating blood.
Pat: When we get back I want to find out what your interpretation of the Scriptures is when it comes to social issues like abortion, divorce, homosexuality, and equality and so on. All of this coming up as we learn about the Jehovah’s Witnesses on the God Show. This is Pat McMann on News Radio 620, KTAR
You’re listening to The God Show, on News Radio 620, KTAR
Pat: As we look at the Jehovah’s Witnesses with the help of JR Brown, the national spokesperson, here on the God Show, this is Pat McMann thanking all of you for being with us, hoping that you, like I, have really absorbed a lot of information. Much of this I didn’t know. I will tell you JR, that one of the things that caused me to feel a bit of sadness and sympathy for kids from Jehovah’s’ Witnesses families, has been the fact that at least, according to my interpretation of their lives, they don’t celebrate holidays, they don’t celebrate birthdays; it just seems like such a loss out of the child’s life. Explain please.
JR: Well I can certainly understand why you might draw that conclusion, Pat , and likely others do too. I can tell you personally it does not bring unhappiness, I was raised a Witness, without celebrating the holidays. You see the thought is, we try to have time with our children year round. We take them with us when we go out evangelizing, they’re with us at the meetings there. Parents buy them gifts at any time. We are not programmed into any specific dates. And the reason that we do this, we explain to our children, is because while there is an apparent excitement to holidays, that none of them are really in the Bible. The Bible only sets aside one date for Christians, and it does not include Christmas or some of the other big holidays; so we just do not commemorate them. There’s no direction to celebrate them in Scripture.
Pat: Do you interpret the Scriptures literally?
JR: Well, it depends. Not all of it because all of the Scripture is not literal. But parts of it is. So if it is something that is talking literally to those serving God, we follow that. We recognize that you have in the Bible figurative or symbolic language.
Pat: Give me an example of your position, the Jehovah’s Witness official position on abortion.
JR: Abortion we feel is something that the Bible condemns. The reason for this is because it takes a life. We look at life as a most precious and sacred thing, that it is from God. No man can give it. And if a life is conceived, then every effort should be made to preserve that life so that life can be given in praise to God.
Pat: So then there are no exceptions?
JR: No. Well, you’re following what God has said there, you don’t reason out how to get your way in spite of it. This is not saying that there cannot be a lot of very sad situations. But when you follow what God says, there’s a bright side and there is a blessing. And so we follow strictly what the Bible says. And since we would not take the life of another person, we could not please him to take the life of an unborn, since it is a life.
Pat: Since the time of Jesus, though, laws dramatically changed, as lives changed, societies, cultures change. What’s your position on divorce, in this year 2002?
JR: Well, that’s why we like the Bible Pat, because it doesn’t change. So we take the Christian standard. The Bible recognizes one valid grounds for Scriptural divorce that frees one for remarriage. And that’s adultery or fornication. In other words, a person might get a divorce, say for legal reasons or whatever. But the key thing there when you follow the Bible is: only divorce on the grounds of adultery frees the parties to remarry someone else.
Pat: With strict attention to the Scripture though, and this is where I have some difficulty simply in my own life recognizing the reality of then and now. One could hardly look at biblical times as a period of equality for women and sometimes for other categories of people that we read about in the Bible. There were certainly the haves and the have-nots when it comes to respect. How do you look at women’s equality now through the eyes of a Jehovah’s’ Witness who gains so much information out of the Bible?
JR: Our position is very much respectful of women. The Bible respects women. Jesus Christ respected women. Even though you don’t have strict things that people could for the most part apply to modern-day settings, the principles are in the Bible. And the principles say that women should be respected as wives and as mothers. They are not inferior persons in any way. The Bible does not teach them to be inferior in any way. They have a role just as a man has a role, the child has a role. There is an order of things that is quite obvious when you look at the way the family is structured. Women have an important role, they are dignified, respected, they are loved, they’re intelligent.
Pat: Are they equal to men within the structure of the Jehovah’s Witness faith?
JR: On that we follow the way the first Christian congregations were set up. And there the Bible says very clearly in the congregational setting that the male members appointed as overseers or elders will do the teaching. That’s just in the church or congregation. Now you notice, when you go out and do evangelizing work, the Bible places no such restrictions on anyone. So men, women, children, teenagers, all can go out doing evangelizing work and conduct Bible lessons with others, and can help bring them to the congregation. But in the congregational setting itself the teaching is assigned to appointed male members serving as elders and overseers.
Pat: Can a woman be a faithful member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses religion and choose not to be married, not to have a family, but to be an attorney, or a poet or a surgeon?
JR: Yes, yes and we have many in that category. Many of the women in our organization are professionals in everyday life, we don’t try to make those decisions for people. They can decide it. Where we come into the picture is when the Bible says should exist in the congregational setting. We have many women who have pursued careers, professions—that’s fine. There they may be the supervisor or one who owns the company, or the boss as someone might say. But that’s not in the congregational setting.
Pat: I have so little time JR I’m going to have to jump to a subject that I know people want to know about and I have little time for your answers so please take that into consideration. May I be a faithful member of Jehovah’s Witnesses and homosexual?
JR: No, you could not, and we’re very straightforward on that. And it’s not our ruling. The Bible shows that the Christians in the first century that were homosexuals changed to qualify as Christians, and so we set the same pattern today. We’re willing to help anyone, we do help anyone, just as in early Christian times. There are some, if you looked into the background you would find there was homosexuality there. But a change was made, this change pleases God and it qualifies one to be part of the modern-day congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Pat: Are heaven and hell places?
JR: Heaven certainly is and hell is.
Pat: They are physical places?
JR: Yeah, heaven is where God is, it’s an invisible realm. There are spirit creatures, angels there. Hell exists too, but it’s the grave. Hell in English translates to the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades, as these words are used in the Bible they refer to mankind’s common grave. The place of burial. We do not find the Bible to teach that hell is fire and that you’re punished there. We do not feel a God of love would burn individuals eternally as a punishment.
Pat: I’m terribly sorry to interrupt, we only have a few seconds left. You don’t pledge allegiance to our country, but you consider yourself a good American?
JR: Oh yes, we feel we’re good Americans, we’re good citizens, we love the country, but we pledge our allegiance to God. And we feel that we’re devoted to him, that will take care of everything else, everything else will fall in place.
Pat: Well, you certainly have allowed areas of information to fall into place for me and I’m sure our audience knows more about the Jehovah’s Witnesses now as a result of J R Brown being here. If you want more information by the way there’s an 866 number. 866 388 2222 to find out about the Jehovah’s Witnesses as I hope you have on the God show this Sunday afternoon on News Radio 620 KTAR.
You’ve been listening to the God Show on News radio 620, KTAR To respond to any of these issues discussed, write to the God Show, in care of KTAR Radio, 5300 North Central Avenue, Phoenix 850 12. The God Show, heard Sundays at noon only on News Radio 620 KTAR.
 +1 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis 2 months ago

Gorby:
Thank you very much!
WTUnderground!
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 2 months ago
What's JR Brown doing these days? I haven't heard anything from him since the early 2000's
 +1 / -0

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
EdenOne
Are Jehovah’s Winesses “Fundamentalists” and “Fanatics”?
by EdenOne 4 months ago
Terry
2-LEGGED GOD and 1-LEGGED MAN: A look at Divine Justice
by Terry 12 days ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5180394374692864/2002-radio-interview-j-r-brown-spokesman-wtbts-god-show






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Thoughts on "Our Christian Life and Ministry" meeting
/  





 

Thoughts on "Our Christian Life and Ministry" meeting
by Saved_JW 5 months ago 6 Replies latest 5 months ago   watchtower beliefs
5
10
20
Saved_JW
Saved_JW 5 months ago

I just watched the sample meeting corresponding to the new release of "our Christian life and Ministry" and I have a few lingering thoughts.
1- Meeting Layout simplified to match level of publishers
When I grew up in the Watchtower, the only real positive takeaway I have is being forced from a very young age to have the skill for public speaking, This has directly helped me with my confidence and gave me a skillset that is valuable in my current job.
What is interesting about this new layout, is the focus isn't so much on training the Publisher with any real practical skill in evangelism, instead the focus is on entertainment. The new layout of the magazine I will admit is much more informative and simplified [no doubt an effort to cut through the boredom of the two tone Kingdom Ministry] However replacing the student talks with videos will not be effective when it comes to training the publisher to be confident in speaking to the public.
The "Bible Highlights" portion of the meeting is vastly simplified. Notice that the Watchtower sets the agenda for WHAT the bible reading is, and the application of the chapter being read. The speakers job is to simply repeat the application. Gone are the days when the individual Witness read the chapter for himself, and delivered from his own words the application of the verse.
Also notice that the questions are CLOSED ENDED. No more are the witnesses encouraged to simply comment on what they read in the bible reading. Much like the Watchtower study, bible reading questions are prepackaged and are tailored to steer the reader to specific conclusions of what the bible reading is about. Thus the publisher is drawing the same conclusions as the Watchtower as to how to understand and apply the bible chapter [through the WT Doctrinal Lens]
2- Subtle propaganda 
I noticed something very fascinating about this video, the very specific camera shots of the publishers holding Ipads and tablets in the audience. I believe there is a push for members to move to digital devices in an effort to curb printing costs. I just wanted to add that the Watchtower often times pushes agendas without saying a word.
3- Still a sales meeting
I find it very funny that the Watchtower makes a change, without actually changing anything. If the end goal of the Watchtower is to make an effective service to produce publishers effective in field ministry, I am afraid that this program being implemented is simply more of the same thing. Its still a sales presentation, minus any experiential training.
What I see is an effort to make the meeting more entertaining and interactive visually, but hardly prepares the publishers for "Real world encounters"
The sales pitches for the WT magazine assume that the Householder is dumb as a box of rocks, they allow the JW in the presentation to completely control the flow of the conversation with absolutely no objections. In my experience this is hardly if ever the case. What this means is that the sales presentations at the meetings do not actually prepare the Jehovah's Witness for effective apologetics thus being able to defend their own point of view. Another way of sheltering and controlling conversations. Any real objections or challenges at the door are met with deaf ears and a "do not call" next to the address.
 +2 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 5 months ago
I enjoyed reading your thoughts in regards to the "Our Christian Life and Ministry" meeting. I especially liked point no. 2 about subtle propaganda. You are spot on! I remember last year at the International Convention in Detroit, you couldn't walk two feet without seeing "JW.ORG". It was everywhere! Don't even get me started on the iPads and Tablets. The org certainly knows how to push its agenda onto the friends "without saying a word".
 
tim3l0rd
tim3l0rd 5 months ago
It is so a sales meeting. I've tried pointing this out many times. Especially the more recent parts about "successes" in the ministry. The "successes" I've heard recently would make me depressed if I was still believing. Very little success, but they always end with "Jehovah is blessing the work!" They remind me of the Amway meetings I went to many many years ago.
 
tidalblitz
tidalblitz 5 months ago
They are the same as any MLM business. I've attended Primerica and WMA meetings and its the same format. Down to the 2 weekly meetings and "field service".
 
Sofia Lose
Sofia Lose 5 months ago

It is more complicated. I hate it! The damn meeting is still almost 2 hrs long; in the Spanish cong, where time is not observed very well, it will for sure last 2 damn hrs.
Damn the mid-week meeting!
SL
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 5 months ago


Saved_JW - "...Subtle propaganda..."
Honestly, it really ain't that subtle.
 +1 / -0
Saved_JW
Saved_JW 5 months ago

Honestly, it really ain't that subtle.
your right, lol
 +1 / -0

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
pixel
INSTRUCTIONS FOR OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING
by pixel 5 months ago
Watchtower-Free
Latest Leaked BOE letter to Elders Oct. 4th
by Watchtower-Free 6 months ago
slimboyfat
Dissenters in Watchtower History: Differing Departures
by slimboyfat 4 months ago
darth frosty
SEVEN Types Of Women Pastors Should Watch Out For In Ministry!
by darth frosty 2 months ago
Wasanelder Once
"Our Christian Life and Ministry Meeting" Lead to Class Distinctions Between Rich and Poor Congregations?
by Wasanelder Once 6 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/512050001/thoughts-on-our-christian-life-ministry-meeting





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
/  





 

Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
by dubstepped 4 months ago 43 Replies latest 3 months ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 months ago

"Sometimes I think the only thing I could do that wouldn't upset someone would be to kill myself."
Those were the frustrated words of my friend as we stood out in his large yard in the country, just about to enjoy a nice bonfire on a beautiful night. What was it that could have been a lesser evil than killing himself? My friend was discussing how people in his congregation might get upset, or "stumbled" as Jehovah's Witnesses might call it, if he were to do something as extreme as wearing an article of clothing with a logo of a sports team on it. So let's step aside for a minute and as a rational person let's look at the notion that one might be looked upon with more disfavor and judged more for wearing a shirt or hat with his favorite team on it versus killing himself. Although there he was reaching with his comparison, on a level such is the life of one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It was a life filled with constant scrutiny and a litany of rules, spoken and unspoken, written and unwritten, that plagued many.
So it really shouldn't be a surprise that I found myself in 2008 near the end of my rope, almost literally. I was almost 31 years of age, and grew up as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. At this point in my life I truly hated myself. I couldn't live up to the expectations that I adopted as my own from the religion that encompassed my life. No, I didn't truly want to die, but I felt that I deserved it on a level, and I certainly didn't want to live. I wouldn't have premeditated my death, but if I had a gun in the house I likely would have shot myself to get it over with. Then again, that's easy to say because the fact is that I didn't have one, but I do believe with the feelings I had and the flashes of rage that I at least could have done it.
When I was a little kid I was very sensitive. I remember my mom telling me that my kindergarten teachers thought there was something wrong with me because I cried so much, and not in a spoiled bratty way, I just got my feelings trampled on easily. By 2008 I pretty much hated everyone including myself. How in the world did I get from that sensitive kid with lots of feelings to the rage filled self-loathing guy that I became?
Let's take a little trip down memory lane. I spent the earliest years of my childhood celebrating holidays with family, and then when I was maybe 8 or so we happened to move in next door to some Jehovah's Witnesses. My mom had always looked for answers to her Biblical questions, and they seemed to have all of the answers, so she started studying with them out of their books. She got baptized into the church, and although my dad had been kind of opposed to her early on, he did the same the following year. With that my young life changed. No more holidays, as Witnesses do not celebrate any holidays, and our family grew more distant, as Witnesses are discouraged from spending too much time with those outside of the religion.
I spent most of my years growing up in school being bullied fairly mercilessly. Not only did I excel academically (nerd!) but I was rail thin and because we weren't doing well financially my clothes all came from second hand stores at best. To add gasoline to the fire I was the kid that didn't salute the flag and had to go outside into the hallway at the beginning of every day for my religion. I had to abstain from any holiday celebrations at school in every way. No singing holiday songs, no doing holiday projects, no eating holiday treats. Participation in any extracurricular activities was discouraged as unnecessary association with the world that was doomed and those in it that might tempt us to live an immoral life. So no organized sports or friends. In middle school I developed shingles on my face from the stress which were not only painful, but that really intensified the bullying. In high school attending pep rally's was discouraged as giving too much weight to school pride and competition, so while other kids attended those I had to go sit in the lunch room and do homework or work on math or something. While other young men and women were taking college prep tests, I was discouraged from higher education as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so despite earning the honor of salutatorian of my graduating class and while having counselors and teachers begging me to go to college with colleges interested in me, I chose to go into the full-time ministry work for my religion.

There is a lot put upon young people that are raised in this way. You are expected to dedicate your life to Jehovah God and to the organization, often during your teens, through water baptism. Doing so is viewed as a lifelong contract to live for God first as part of His organization, which Jehovah's Witnesses feel they are chosen to be. I was baptized in 1992 at the age of 14, thus solidifying a lifelong contract at an age where I could not hold a job, get married, and probably enjoyed playing with toys from time to time. Those who fail to get baptised often become outcasts, looked down upon as "unspiritual" in the congregation. Once baptised, you then qualify for a level of public ministry that requires you to go out knocking doors for what was 60 hours per month back then, and I did so during the summers while other young people had fun. Again, it is kind of expected that young ones like me that were set up as the high achievers in the congregation should sign up for that range of service, so I did. From an early age you learn that it doesn't matter what you think or feel, only what the pages of the Watchtower magazine articles state, or what a brother says from the platform at congregation meetings and conventions. You are told what to think, what to feel, and how to act. We were told time and again that the world was watching us expecting us to set the example because if we were to slip up we would justify the world's hatred of us as Witnesses and cause shame to our heavenly Father. That breeds a special brand of paranoia. Nevermind the fact that everyone in the congregation around you was watching you in case you slipped up so that they could report you. Scriptures were picked and expounded upon to let us know that we were good for nothing slaves for God and that anything good was truly undeserved kindness from Jehovah, because we are just sinners deserving of death. That was always great for the self-esteem.

Even young children are shown illustrated pictures of the end of this world as we know it, when God comes to destroy everyone that is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses (they will deny it, but we all know what is taught within those four walls). We were pushed to go out and knock on doors of strangers to give this warning message that the end of the world is coming, and if you aren't for us you're against us, us being synonymous with Jehovah God of course. We referred to our religion as "The Truth", setting up a mind control tactic that promotes to all involved that anything else must therefore be false. Those of my generation were brought up to believe that we would never die. This world would be destroyed and since we were Witnesses, we'd undoubtably march right on into the paradise on earth that would be established when everyone else was destroyed at Armageddon. I was never supposed to drive, to graduate high school, to get married, to live out my life. As I stand here looking down the barrel of 40, it is a weird feeling because the fact is that I likely will die, just as all of those people died who were on the cover of a Watchtower magazine proclaiming that "millions now living will never die" back decades ago. The world was supposed to end in 1874, 1914, 1925, 1975, and even last year they passive agressively asked if this might be the last Memorial observation, kind of the Easter of Jehovah's Witnesses (without the fun and the only annual observation that they have).

The expectation for adult Witness men is that we pioneer out of high school, which back then was to dedicate 90 hours per month in the public ministry work. I did that for one year while working up to three part time jobs to try and support myself through doing so before I burnt out and couldn't continue. If you absolutely have to have sex, you can marry another Witness only. If possible though, it would be better if you could not be burdened with marriage so that you can devote more time to the public ministry and other aspects of service, like providing volunteer labor to build construction projects for the organization. Because really, marriage isn't about love or anything like that, it's merely an outlet for the sexual frustrations of those weak enough to give into them. If you pray enough though, you can fight such temptation off and serve the organization more fully.

Regardless of whether you have to marry to satisfy your own selfish needs or not, you're expected as a man, a brother in the congregation, to reach out for privileges of service, to be "used" by the congregation, an appropriate term. You get to handle maintenance of the church building, distribution of published materials to the congregants, handling the funds, just doing odd jobs around the church with the aim of becoming a ministerial servant so that you can have a title along with the activities. After time spend doing that, you may be appointed an elder at some point in time, at which point you get to actively "shepherd the flock of God" by giving private counsel and taking the lead in giving Bible talks and handling parts of various congregation meetings.

Every individual in the congregation faces pressure. Why? If you are caught doing anything deemed wrong at any level by anyone else in the congregation, you may be subjected to a meeting with the elders to correct your thinking, your actions, or whatever you've done that causes someone else to report you. You could be counseled for the length of your hair, the color of your suit, a word that someone overheard you say, an off color joke, the movie that you watched, the music that you listen to, for a relationship with the opposite sex before being of age to legally marry, if someone were to find out that a married person engaged in oral sex and you had priveleges in the congregation as a fine example, for the job that you chose, for the hours that you chose to work at that job if they interfered in any way with carrying out the expectations of the organization that were put upon you, and I could go on and on. If nothing else, you're always under the watchful eye of Jehovah God, who sees everything, even the thoughts and feelings within you. After all, Jesus said that if you even so much as look at a woman with lust for her, you've committed adultery in your heart. So guilt and shame is heaped upon you for every imperfection you have, and even for natural desires. You are expected to perform in the organization as a perfect little automaton.

There's another level of pressure though that really keeps people trapped and scared in the religion. If you have any sexual contact with someone prior to marriage, smoke cigarettes, take a life saving blood transfusion, ask too many questions and doubt the religion out loud, and a host of other transgressions, you are then subjected to the dreaded "judicial committee". In these you get to sit down in front of three men, elders in the congregation, who ask about every detail in the hopes of coming to a decision on your standing in the congregation. If you are deemed truly repentant, something that no man can ever tell because some people react differently to such a situation and men cannot read your heart, you might get off with merely being "reproved" for your conduct. This was sometimes announced from the platform in a public meeting and you might be given restrictions in the congregation as to what you could do for a period of time. If you are found to be an unrepentant and willful sinner, you are disfellowshipped, in which case you are ousted from the congregation and viewed as dead. Your parents, siblings, friends, everyone you know must shun you, not even saying a greeting to you. They will act as though you are dead, literally. THAT is some crazy pressure to put on someone. The only way back in is to be at all of the meetings and meet with elders, often over the course of a year or so even though there's no predetermined amount of time, during which you are to arrive late and leave early so as not to upset the others in the congregation with your mere presence. After that time you might be reinstated, after which people will accept you back while always being leery of you thereafter because you have the scarlet "D" for disfellowshipped that will follow you around. There really is no such thing as forgiving and forgetting. They keep files on this stuff forever.

There was a one hour meeting on Tuesday, a two hour meeting on Thursday, and another two hour meeting on Sunday. There was studying to be done prior to every meeting so that you knew what was going to be discussed and had already gone through it. That way you could raise your hand and regurgitate the information that they were indoctrinating you with during the meeting's question and answer sessions. Most of us were also on the "school" where we were assigned topics and information to give Bible talks on. Even as a kid I gave 5 minute Bible talks in front of the congregation, usually once a month. That's a lot of pressure on a kid with school and everything, and you were guided on public speaking through various counsel given as you were essentially graded for your performance. There were also large assemblies and conventions with thousands of Witnesses in attendance. I've been featured on conventions in front of twelve thousand or so Witnesses for my good example. However, I quickly learned while developing that interview that even then my "spiritual goals" that I had weren't enough. I was told to think hard about my answers and that if my goals weren't high enough they could help me develop some for the part on the convention. I came to realized that many of the examples given were fluffed up to be more and more sensational. That impacted my view of what I was being told, but I dismissed it as a kid. I didn't have much choice.

When not at meetings, you were still expected to keep your religion first and foremost in your life. We went out knocking on doors in the field ministry every Saturday, often from 9:30-noon or so. Then we might go home and study the Watchtower lesson that we would go over on Sunday at the meeting. As a child my parents would occasionally sign up for that 60 hour requirement that I mentioned earlier, as there was a lot of pressure applied by the organization to do so. Dad worked, and in order to get his time in for the month we would all go out as a family after work for him and school for us. While other kids were doing homework and playing or watching tv, we were our knocking on their doors as kids to help our parents meet their 60 hour requirement for the month. There were rules about how to count that time as well, but I digress.

My life revolved around all of those expectations. I was a very conscientious person and took it all very seriously. I wanted to be "good enough" so that the people around me, my parents, friends, those in the congregation, would accept me. When your whole world is filled with those people, the possibility of being ostracized is a terrifying prospect. I was finding it harder and harder to keep up with everything that they expected. I was hustling and working really hard in my cleaning business to make ends meet. After all, avoiding college is a way of life in the religion, so wages are limited. I was given few money handling skills as money was to be seen as temporary as this world is going away, and I was going deep in debt because I had no clue how to manage any of this. I knew how to work hard, as I had since the time I was a kid, but I was just digging myself in deeper. I was married with a great wife that was there with me, but the pressure was really getting to me. I became deeply depressed, as I could not measure up to the perfectionistic, rigid standards set before me since I was a child. I was filled with anxiety. Areas of our home looked like a hoarder lived there because I just gave up. I remember going to the elders once and asking them what I was doing wrong since I couldn't keep up with it all and found my time devoted to the religion suffering. Their response was to essentially blame the victim, declaring that ultimately we all do what we want to do. You see, all of this legalistic rule making wasn't merely about whether or not you could uphold the rules and meet the standards, there was a morality attached to every one of them. Clearly I didn't really want to serve God and didn't care about or love Him was what they were really accusing me of. It couldn't possibly be human imperfection or anything else, it has to be about the desire to do what has been deemed by them as "right". That was the wrong thing to tell a person already deeply depressed because they couldn't perform as the perfect little representative of their organization. It was salt in the wound and hurt a lot. "We do what we choose" just echoed in my head, over and over again, making me doubt my motivations and what I really cared about. They say that guilt is the belief that I did a bad thing, and shame is the belief that I am a bad person. I was deeply shamed by now. I had decades of it embedded in me for every bad thought, every bad song that I liked on the radio, every time that I fell short of their expectations, and of course, those expectations became my expectations of myself, so I owned it all.

So I found myself in 2008 just loathing everything about myself. I am a driven person anyway, and I come by perfectionism honestly, but I was a control freak that was watching life become totally out of control. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how much I beat myself up, nothing worked, go figure. I can't tell you how many times while driving I thought about just turning that wheel a little to the right and going right into that rock wall on the side of I-71 on the way back home. I told my wife about my feelings and she was well aware, and honestly her being in that car with me on our way home from a hard day of work was probably what saved me. I didn't care about myself anymore, but I did care about her.

One day at a particularly low point I was on a business forum online to distract myself. I had been praying and praying for help, any help, because I was ready for this to end and didn't care how. I spent hours on business forums though, pontificating on my ideas and offering ideas to help others. It was a welcome distraction and part of me hoped to find that one magic idea that would get us out of mounting debt. This particular day someone noticed my posts and asked me if they could send me a private message. In it they let me know that they saw something in me. It turns out that the guy was a retired ADHD specialist, and in the way my mind bounced around and was prolific in coming up with ideas he saw a reflection of his past patients. He recommened a book to me entitled "Driven To Distraction" that was all about ADHD, and I bought it in audio format. My wife and I went to detail a car that weekend and listened to it separately, though at the same time, while we worked. It was the first time in my life that someone seemed to understand the way my brain worked, and I cried when the book ended because I liked the feeling of finally being understood. My wife and I would just look at each other in amazement as we detailed that car, seeing point after point in the book that explained many of my troubles in executing what I wanted to do, as ADHD is an executive function disorder. I wasn't just fighting ridiculous standards set by a high control religion, I also had something going on that made it hard for many people to do what they wanted to do. Sometimes it isn't a matter of desire like the elders tried to get me to believe, it is just a matter of ability. I was overmatched by all of this.

That bad advice by the elders really touched a nerve. For the first time I could now see that these people didn't necessarily understand life. Heck, I didn't understand life either, as I saw it through the lens they provided me with. I thought I knew it all in that religion and here I had been humbled enough to see that I might have a problem like ADHD, something that formerly I thought was a made up disorder for parents that were too lazy to parent their kids. After all, everything and everyone can be controlled, or so I thought. The religion made me almost believe that perfection was achievable with enough control. Now I knew that things weren't all under my control, and I started to see that the religion was out of touch with reality.

I spent about two years in an ADHD community online learning everything that I could about the real lives of people dealing with it. I then realized that ADHD didn't even come close to explaining everything, but it was a starting point. I started listening to books like "Happier", "Boundaries", "Healing The Shame That Binds", "Codependent No More", "The Narcissistic Family", "A New Earth", and "The Power Of Vulnerability". There were more, but these formed a foundation of mental and emotional health that I had never been taught. It is easy to stay locked into a religion, or a cult as some call Jehovah's Witnesses, when you're held down emotionally and mentally. Getting healthy was a catalyst for a total transformation.

We had always been told that people outside of our religion were to be feared as a potential danger to us not just spiritually, but morally and in so many other ways. My wife and I cleaned homes for people that were really eye opening for us. Genuinely caring, beautiful people that didn't live the catastrophic lives of unhappiness and dysfunction that I was brought up to believe. They taught us a new way of seeing people as just people, without the chasm separating us. We learned that we weren't so different, no matter how hard the religion tried to make us such. In fact, we saw people that were often happy and well adjusted, whereas in the religion we saw people dealing with so much depression despite laying claim to Jehovah, "the happy god". People in our congregations often lived, as one speaker once put it, on pills and prayers. That's not a healthy way of being.

As I mentioned earlier, my wife and I were not good with money. We found ourselves in $55,000 of IRS debt, primarily because we never put emphasis on making what we really needed to make ends meet and pay taxes. For years we just never had the money at the end of the year, and when the envelope arrived showing that the debt had eclipsed $50,000 at the time, I told my wife that we had to focus on this and knock it out. There may be no debtors prisons, but we were about to do hard time. For the next 18 months we worked 7 days a week many weeks. We cleaned houses, detailed cars, sealed concrete, painted, pressure washed, cleaned carpet, and we would house sit for our clients that would go out of town and watch their pets. We might clean three houses during the day, clean an office that evening, and then spend the night away from home to watch someone's home and pet while they were on vacation. When that time was over we paid off every penny that we owed, and it was good because I'm not sure how much longer we could have made it. We literally worked ourselves sick over and over, but we got through it. As great as paying off the debt was, there was something even bigger going on.

For that year and a half we were forced to be away from all of the church meetings and study. People told us that Jehovah would not bless us for our efforts and that we would fail, in no uncertain terms. Honestly, we kind of felt the same. However, we prayed about it and told God that we didn't know what to do but that we would make ourselves available. You bring us the work, and we'll do it, was our request. In that year and a half our van, which previously had not run for longer than a few months without needing major repairs, ran for the entire duration without needing anything but one minor thing like a tire or something. No down time whatsoever. One day when we were dead tired and couldn't fathom doing that last job of the day, the client called to tell us that her air conditioning went out and that she couldn't have us over that day. We would have a client cancel for some reason and someone would call out of the blue and request the very day and spot that we just had open up. Work and money just came. It was really surprising and exhilarating to see that things could indeed work and we could be blessed even though we weren't doing all of the "right things" according to the religion. We also had lots of serious discussions during that time as we began to awaken to the possibilities that things we were taught didn't add up. Getting away from the constant indoctrination allowed us time to process and question things and to really look at them for what they were instead of just moving on to the next indoctrination session. Suddenly "The Truth" didn't add up so much anymore. There were glaring flaws that we never had time to see before, and those that we had both seen from our lives in it were getting clearer.
Over the past couple of years our search for what some refer to as "The Truth About The Truth" deepened. We were always cautioned not to read any materials about our religion not published by the organization. I finally started to look into things and found out quickly that I was not alone in my feelings about the organization. I started to read in black and white the quotations from secular authorities that the religion took out of context to misuse as support for points that they wanted to make. I started to see that the context to scriptures that they would use to support certain doctrines shined a totally different light on those verses than what I was lead to believe. I cannot live a lie. I have always been a seeker in every aspect of life but my religion. I always stood up as a staunch supporter of what I was lead to believe was the truth. I faced ridicule and opposition from classmates, teachers, strangers, family, and I wore it with pride. I defended "The Truth" vehemently against all persecution. So you can imagine my disappointment at finding out that I had been manipulated and lied to. All of those years of suffering, and for what? My wife and I knew that there was only one choice. Just as we both stood up as teenagers and made a public declaration of our dedication to God and the organization claiming to own him, it was time to stand up and take a stand for what we now realized was true.

Our first stand involved my younger brother. He had been disfellowshipped when he was in his early twenties, and I had shunned him like a good Witness should, along with everyone else. It always bothered me, and initially when he was kicked out of the organization I tried to find him and reach out but never could. He moved away. Well, after shunning him for close to a decade, I found him on Facebook. I sent him a private message and apologized for some things. The books that I had listened to on emotional abuse and narcissism and the like woke me up to an entire range of emotions that had died at some point in my childhood in the religion. Real love for a person, not conditional love that abandons at the first sign of tribulation, was something that I finally found. I was so sorry that I ever treated him that way. He understood, as he grew up in it too, and we reconnected. My wife and I got to meet him and his wife when they came down to our area for a wedding. It was amazing. I chose not to hide it and posted photos on Facebook, the very place that we reconnected. My family saw those photos and it was the beginning of the end of our relationship. For the next six months to a year (the timeline gets fuzzy) they really backed away and had little to do with us. We would email or text, but previously we would go to my parents house a couple of times each month. It became clear that we weren't really welcome. It grew very cold.

The stand didn't end there though. My wife and I planned a trip to go to Manhattan to visit my brother and his wife where they lived. I contacted my mom to get some childhood pictures for my brother and his wife to enjoy, as they had nothing as he was always shunned in their married life. I was able to get some photos when we met one night at a Mexican restaurant that we always enjoyed, a night that one relative deemed "the last supper" before we met, something we learned on the way there through social media. It truly was the last time that we saw each other.

So we took those photos and made the trek to see my brother and his wife in Manhattan. That was even more amazing than meeting them here, getting to visit my brother and his wife and to see the life they had built for themselves. There just aren't words for the impact that made on both my wife and I. When we got back I posted photos on Facebook again because I'm not going to hide or be ashamed of our relationship any longer. The cult indoctrination made me do that for long enough. We never really heard from my family again, and when a relative of my wife inquired as to my brother's standing in the religion and she answered truthfully, she was instantly labeled an apostate and told that she would be shunned. Boom, just like that. Literally one or two sentences on a text message. My wife's relative quickly spread the word and by the next morning my wife lost all family and friends even in other states on social media. She was both unfriended and blocked so that she can't even see their lives anymore. Instant shunning, the product of cult indoctrination so strong that it is an immediate reaction, in this case above and beyond the call of duty. Associating with my brother wasn't necessarily something that would have resulted in being cast out of the organization, though it admittedly was frowned upon. They couldn't even handle that.

That set us on our final journey in the religion. It was time to make some tough decisions. We had already lost our family with no way to get them back without abandoning our new course of love. We had hoped to fade from the congregtion and to be left alone, but not formally exit with the shunning mandate that would carry. However, after over a year of not attending anything related to the religion our congregation elders suddenly decided to reach out to us. We ignored their phone calls and they tried to catch us at home, stopping by one night as we happened to be coming home and saw them. We knew from reading the experiences of others that we were unlikely to be left alone, which is all that we wanted. Our plan was that if that pursuit started we would immediately formally disassociate from the religion. We weren't willing to play their games. So we sat down and wrote goodbye letters to our families. There aren't really words for how hard it is to do something like that, but we knew that if we didn't get a chance to do so and they found out we disassociated they would never even read something that we sent to them, much less talk to us. After that we wrote our formal letters of disassociation. We sent them out and waited.

My mom sent me a goodbye email response. Not one other person in our families had anything to say to us.

On September 2, 2015, we were both formally and publicly announced as no longer being one of Jehovah's Witnesses in our local congregation. This decision came with a great price, just like our initial decisions as kids to join officially came with a great price. We are now and forever shunned by our parents, our siblings in the religion, and 8 million plus Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide, as to them we no longer exist. All of those years spent serving an organization and getting to know the people in it disappeared in the blink of an eye. In the end, nothing stacks up to the fact that we now have freedom. We have the freedom to make friends that actually care about us for who we authentically are, not for the role that we play in an organization. We can think for ourselves and research anything and everything we want. It would be easy to let our faith in God go, after all, it was part of the devastation of our lives. A lot has been lost on our part in His name, however we now have Christian Freedom. We are free agents now, serving God with a personal relationship formed by our experiences rather than rigid proclamations of others claiming to speak for Him. Could that change? Why not, as I never thought I'd be where I am now. Not in a million years, so who knows where life will take us? The biggest difference is that now I'm not trying to control life and feeling the desperation of trying to do so and frustration of failing. I ride the tide of life and make choices inside the current that I find myself in. Trying to control the tide is an exercise in futility, and insanity. The depression is gone and I'm happier and more focused than I've ever been in life. I've reconnected with that emotionally sensitive kid that existed so many years ago. I'm emotionally and mentally healthy and well adjusted, well, according to me. I am free, and rebuilding my life with my wife by my side. We are forming new friendships and reconnecting with family that we were distanced from. We look forward to our new life.

Mike (and my wife Jenny) - here's a pic of us from that fateful trip to NYC


 +39 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 months ago

I know this is long and it looks even longer once I posted it. It was suggested that I break it up, and if you guys request that I can see what I can do. It took me a long time to get everything down and to stop changing things around because I'm a perfectionist. I wanted to release this into the wild, so to speak, to hopefully help others. It is written not just for ex-JW's, but for everyone as I take time to explain things that many of you guys know already.
I lost all formatting when I pasted my text into the forum, and after reformatting it all most of the work I did was lost when I clicked to post it. I went back feverishly trying to fix things, so if there are paragraphs that are too long I did my best. I'm also up against the clock, as I'm heading out the door for work (or I'm supposed to be, lol).
I hope someone finds this valuable.
Mike
 +20 / -0
Simon
Simon 4 months ago

It looks great, don't worry about the formatting - perfectly readable.
Great story - not what you have gone through, but that you came out the other side and are still here. I'm sure it will help others faces the same issues.
:thumbsup:
 +7 / -0
tim3l0rd
tim3l0rd 4 months ago

Awesome post! I love how you accomplished your goals, were blessed, and yet not one JW or family member could see it that way. I'm going to go find some of those books you mentioned and see if they help me.
Thanks again for the post! It really was a moving experience and quite the journey.
 +7 / -0
QuestioningEverything
QuestioningEverything 4 months ago

I read your entire post. Yes, it was long  but it was worth reading! So much of what you wrote mirrors the way me and my husband felt. The pressure of never being good enough. The changing doctrines and the way family treat DF'd ones.
So happy for you and your wife that you are now 'free'. It is a wonderful place to be and there is so much out there to enjoy. Best wishes to you both.
 +8 / -0
krejames
krejames 4 months ago
Thanks for sharing your story and welcome to the forum
 +4 / -0
The Searcher
The Searcher 4 months ago

You are the survivors - the J.W.'s who were part of your previous life are still unwitting victims.
Maybe one day they'll see.
Wish you a great life.
 +10 / -0
life is to short
life is to short 4 months ago

So well written. You described so much of how I felt, I thought of suicide so often while I was pioneering and I just could not understand why I wanted to die so bad because I was in the "truth" with the happiest religion.
I now understand, though I still struggle with depression and anxiety and probably always will as a by product of the religion.
Thanks for witting such a great post.
LITS
 +8 / -0
Heartsafire
Heartsafire 4 months ago

Mike,
I love your story! This touched my heart, and made me feel inspired and hopeful. I can completely relate to so much of it. So happy for you and Jenny.
HAF
 +8 / -0
PaintedToeNail
PaintedToeNail 4 months ago
dubstepped- an excellent, insightful post. Thanks for the book references on ADHD, they sound like something that would help me. It is wonderful that you now have a loving outlook on life and the lives of others. Also, your financial success is empowering. Congratulations on you and your wife getting out and getting into a more positive life.
 +7 / -0
airborne
airborne 4 months ago
Wonderful post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
 +5 / -1
_Morpheus
_Morpheus 4 months ago

No appology needed :smile: it was great to read that and you expressed well so many of things we all deal with as a result of the cult
 +6 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 4 months ago

Thanks for posting this man I'll take time and read it through am at work right now.
Good stuff, Freeminds worthy post !
On edit : you and your wife look great ! Buff couple !
 +4 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 4 months ago

dubstepped
Wow...what a fantastic story. It was well worth the read. I just sat here and read it out loud to my spouse. It was wonderful!
It is amazing that you and your wife did all of this together. The debt you paid off and the hard work you did to do that was commendable. You did it with hard work and should be proud of that.
Your story will give so many here hope. I know you must hurt that you both lost your family but you have gained a brother and his family. How wonderful! It is good that you have moved on and are making new friends. You are right, there are so many wonderful people to connect with in "the world." They do not all have horns and pitchforks. lol
Thank you again for your story, it truly made our day.
 +5 / -0
WatchtowerReviewz
WatchtowerReviewz 4 months ago

This was an awesome story. I am currently in that limbo phase where I am shunned by my family even though I have not been disfellowshipped or disassociated yet. I will be sending letters and private messages out to every single person I can find very soon announcing that I am leaving the organization. The one thing that has always bothered me about disassociating is that the rank and file will never now if you left on your own or if you were kicked out. I am gong to let it be known I am leaving.
Stories like yours are encouraging to read. Thanks for posting it!
 +6 / -0
DNCall
DNCall 4 months ago
You have been up against so many things your entire life. Congratulations for enduring it all and conquering. Congratulations to Jenny as well. You both are so deserving of (and unless you've been a Witness or a hostage or critically ill, you wouldn't understand) normalcy. I wish you every success.
 +7 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 months ago
Jeezus, it's like the WTS wants to drive young people away...
 +9 / -0
Syme
Syme 4 months ago

Thank you very much for your sharing of your story. It was very touching.
The length of the story was just fine, no worries :smile:
 +5 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 4 months ago
Dubstepped. WOW! that was such a wonderful read & I love the pic of you & your beautiful wife at the end. You have an amazing journey ahead of you my friend enjoy. Big Hug for you both.
 +5 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 months ago

I'm glad to see the positive response. I really tried to avoid putting specifics in regarding our family members. Believe me, I could have written at least that much, if not more, about our respective family dysfunctions. The book on "The Narcissistic Family" was great for identifying how the Borg creates narcissists out of people, but it was also helpful in dealing with both of our families. Both of us grew up with parents that were sons/daughters of alcoholic families and our family lives mirrored much of that without any alcohol. I have so many stories, but I wanted to keep this primarily JW centered.
Thanks for the kind words. It means a lot to know that the pain you go through is what is common to men, so to speak, that you're not alone. At my worst, when suicide seemed like a good option at times, one of the biggest issues was that I felt so very alone. In the Borg nobody is transparent. Imperfections are fodder for gossip and possibly even counsel from elders. It fosters a spirit of keeping everything close to your chest, not letting the real you show, not admitting where you struggle. There's no community to be found over struggles. It is nice to find such community here.
 +6 / -0

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic

258



Related Topics
Tenacious
Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 8 days ago
new boy
How Did My Book Come About?
by new boy a month ago
MarkofCane
My Story "Act 2"
by MarkofCane 2 months ago
snare&racket
Ten years out.....
by snare&racket 11 days ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5826912488259584/suicide-real-freedom-my-story-one-jehovahs-witnesses






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
/  





 

Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
by dubstepped 4 months ago 43 Replies latest 3 months ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
YinzerDad
YinzerDad 4 months ago

Mike,
You have a gift for the written word. Don't know if anyone's ever told you that. That's a great read and you perfectly explain what I've been struggling to for several years now to my wife and now my therapy group.
Thank you for sharing.
 +5 / -0
Lostwun
Lostwun 4 months ago

So now i get to put a face with the name. Good for you Dub a.k.a. Mike.
Glad you've found your freedom and have your wife out with you.
Lost-Wun
 +5 / -0
Tornintwo
Tornintwo 4 months ago

Wonderful story Dubstepped and so well written.
it really illustrates how this organisation tramples on individuality and people's emotions in pursuit of drone slaves for the watchtower. I'm so sorry your family have made such a narrow minded choice, it is their loss and I hope they realize that one day.
its great that you didn't throw the baby out with the bath water and abandon your faith. I am clinging to a faith in God and Christ, there are things in my life that have made me just feel there is a God, unpopular as such thinking may be with some here. it's difficult because the witnesses claim ownership of God, yesterday I was told 'Jehovah misses me' because I'm not at the meetings, I was like 'how do you know Jehovah isn't with me?'.
Thanks again for a great story, enjoy the rest of your lives and a huge congratulations that your wife is by your side, it's a luxury many of us here don't have X
 +6 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 4 months ago

That was a great post, thank you for putting it all down.
I have ADHD also, I only realized it when my daughter was diagnosed as an adult, in researching it I realized I was ADHD also. It explained so much about me and my life and why I struggled with things. When I was a JW I always thought there was something wrong with me, that I was a bad person because I couldn't pay attention at the meetings, actually I hated every minute of them. Well, there was something wrong with me, but it wasn't that I was bad, and the meetings actually were rather horrible. It was such a relief to learn tatt, I didn't have to force myself to do something I hated so much.
I find that meditation helps me with the ADHD, it improves my focus and follow through.
 +6 / -0
Tenacious
Tenacious 4 months ago

Marked
 +2 / -0
JakeM2012
JakeM2012 4 months ago

Dub, I wanted to thank you for your very well written post. I'm a bit older than you, but we have a common ground. I'm glad that you have made it through this process, and have retained your wife. There is comfort with the various stories written about life growing up as a JW and the continued struggles, that we are not alone in our thoughts.
 +5 / -0
poppers
poppers 4 months ago
Just a few days ago I had a JW tell me on Yahoo Answers that they don't shun anyone. He claimed they can talk to anyone at anytime. I couldn't believe how brazenly they will lie to people.

 +5 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 months ago

@ poppers...
Ironic, as "brazen" conduct is a disfellowshipping offense. :smirk:
 +4 / -1
jhine
jhine 4 months ago

Welcome , Mike and Jenny . Congratulions on coming through so much and still be smiling . Good for you that you didn't let the org steal your faith .
Jan
 +3 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 4 months ago
Great post. You should write a book. You are an excellent writer. Very engaging.
 +4 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 months ago
Thanks for the continued comments. Everyone that takes the time to read that means a lot to me. I was able to share this post on Facebook with my friends and they shared it and some of their friends have shared it even more. To see it make an impact on those that are non-JW's out there and to be able to give them a glimpse into this world and just to be seen and not hide anymore is a beautiful thing. I want people to see what really goes on and what those of us that have been in, and those who are in, are subjected to. And I love my brothers and sisters who are out and who still suffer loss even with your newly found freedom. People here inspired my wife and I to free ourselves, and we strive to give back.
 +7 / -0
floriferous
floriferous 4 months ago

I read your entire post Mike, you took me right back to my 1960's childhood in the Watchtower Organisation..
As a very sensitive child I also struggled to be the perfect JW kid, always feeling an innate terror that god was going kill me at Armageddon.
Though I was not an academically gifted kid, my experiences mirrored many of yours.
Floriferous
 +6 / -0
flipper
flipper 4 months ago
DUBSTEPPED- I am happy my friend that you and your wife have your freedom of mind. Welcome to that freedom of expression here. Thanks for sharing. Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 +6 / -0
cognac
cognac 4 months ago
I can't wait to read this so I bookmarked it. Kids are jumping all over me, lol. You two are an adorable couple!
 +5 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 months ago

@ Dubstepped...
You have too clever a username to throw it all away... :wink:
 +4 / -0
truthseeker100
truthseeker100 4 months ago
Someone should write my story I can't do it myself!! It would be a fascinating read for sure!! I don't take from anyone all I seek is Truth!!
 +4 / -0
Pwyrdan
Pwyrdan 4 months ago
Your post is perfect! Very positive. It's easy sometimes to think of my teenage years and the "close" friendships I then had, and miss them. But it has all been worth moving on, and hearing about how you both bravely chose your course and stuck to it is so encouraging.
 +3 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 4 months ago

MIKE a/k/a dubstepped:
I am very moved by your life story and am sorry for the pain you have experienced as somebody raised as a Jehovah's Witness. Words just cannot describe it.
It is unfortunate that the general public is unaware of just how unnatural, sick and damaging this religion is! I would like for that to change and for the public to be enlightened about them.
I came in as a young adult who later "faded". For several years I believe I suffered from some form of mild post-traumatic stress. It really took a while to get my head together and purge my mind of the religion's garbage!! I am also a sensitive individual and cannot imagine what might have happened to ME if I were in it since childhood like you were!
I am SO grateful to be out of that vacuum of a religion. I have reconnected with non-JW family and relatives this hateful religion tried to separate me from!
You have come a long way and are a success story and I wish you and your wife the Best of Luck and Happiness!
 +4 / -0
3rdgen
3rdgen 4 months ago

Mike, (glad I can call you Mike) Your post was so moving. You are able to put into words the profound turmoil so many of us have suffered as children born and reared in the JW culture. I also had parents and grandparents who either abused alcohol or prescription meds which adds an additional element of anxiety and fear for children that takes it to the level of trauma.
You have inspired me to write letters to my closest family members who are shunning me because I no longer am "active". I know it won't change how they treat me but at least they will read my own words as opposed to the BS they have heard through the "Grapevine".
 +5 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 months ago

wow, just wow.
Thank you so much for posting, the effort that you made for us all...I am definately going to look up the narcassistic family book, I really relate to the over sensative child stuff, in fact, if it's ok I would like to show my therapist your post as you have put so much into words I want to express but can't. In fact you have really opened my eyes to some of my own behaviours..
You guys are so inspirational, I wish you both much love & luck..Thank you again💕❤❤
 +3 / -0

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
"sometimes i think the only thing i could do that wouldn't upset someone would be to kill myself.".
those were the frustrated words of my friend as we stood out in his large yard in the country, just about to enjoy a nice bonfire on a beautiful night.
what was it that could have been a lesser evil than killing himself?



Related Topics
Tenacious
Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 8 days ago
new boy
How Did My Book Come About?
by new boy a month ago
MarkofCane
My Story "Act 2"
by MarkofCane 2 months ago
snare&racket
Ten years out.....
by snare&racket 11 days ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5826912488259584/suicide-real-freedom-my-story-one-jehovahs-witnesses?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
/  





 

Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
by dubstepped 4 months ago 43 Replies latest 3 months ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
millie210
millie210 3 months ago

Dubstepped, I dont know how I didnt see your story until now but Im so glad I got to read it.
Following you through your younger years up to now was a powerful and very moving experience.
I hope this thread stays near the top so new people coming to this forum can read it and find comfort and hope in your words like I did.
 +3 / -0
2+2=5
2+2=5 3 months ago

Thanks for sharing your story bro.
I am also about to turn 31, although its no longer 2008, and I often feel like I am at the end of my rope so to speak.
Perhaps I will feel the need to tell my story in 2022.
 +4 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 3 months ago

@Diogenesister - Feel free to share my story with anyone that you think it might help or that might help you by reading it. I have put it up on Facebook in one of the groups as well. I hate to think that all that I went through was for nothing, so I'm thrilled that it might help others. And I do know that it wasn't for nothing. I wouldn't be who I am today without some of it, but still it helps to put it out there and know that others appreciate it in some way.
@2+2=5 - Is that a reference to Orwell's 1984? Methinks it is, and I love that. I just bought the audiobook and listened to it at work and wow, it mirrored so much of the JW religion. I just felt like I needed a shower after finishing that book. So reminiscent of life as a dub.
 +2 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 months ago

Thank you so much Dubstepped, I just saw my therapist but I didn't want to show her till I heard from you, I will email it to her with a message as she knows I wanted her to see it. It's hard for people who don't know the religon to get a sense of just how much scrutiny you are under & how much you deem yourself unworthy no matter what you do.
Your piece is marvellous, it taught me about feelings I could not identify in me as focusing on self knowledge & self care is frowned on by the WT unless its to boost 'productivity'.xxx anna
 +2 / -0

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic

1
Topic Summary
"sometimes i think the only thing i could do that wouldn't upset someone would be to kill myself.".
those were the frustrated words of my friend as we stood out in his large yard in the country, just about to enjoy a nice bonfire on a beautiful night.
what was it that could have been a lesser evil than killing himself?



Related Topics
Tenacious
Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 8 days ago
new boy
How Did My Book Come About?
by new boy a month ago
MarkofCane
My Story "Act 2"
by MarkofCane 2 months ago
snare&racket
Ten years out.....
by snare&racket 11 days ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5826912488259584/suicide-real-freedom-my-story-one-jehovahs-witnesses?page=3&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ A useful MacDonald's advert in Taiwan teaching tolerance attacked by religious bigots
/  





 

A useful MacDonald's advert in Taiwan teaching tolerance attacked by religious bigots
by fulltimestudent 3 hours ago 6 Replies latest 35 minutes ago   jw friends
5
10
20
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent 3 hours ago



 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin 2 hours ago

I'm not a fan of Mickey Dee's and cultural imperialism, but I have to admit,,,,,,,,,,,,, LOVE THIS AD!
:grinning:
 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 hours ago

I like their breakfast McMuffins and coffee. Hate that everything starts with Mc. Don't care if men want to love other men as long as it doesn't happen to me.
Live long and prosper.
 
talesin
talesin an hour ago

I do love their coffee, Simon. It's much better than Timmie's, don't you think?
Ah, so rare I could ask a board member that! How many are Canadian? ; )
.
It's a great ad, because it's changing that Asian cultural, and homophobic, norm. For Canadians, it's no biggie now. Remember when we had the ruling? The controversy? So, yeah, I know that Mickey Dee's only does it for profit, but it's a benefit to the culture, in this case. It's like, cultural imperialism is actually doing a 'good' thing. wow! If you catch my drift.
 +1 / -0
John Free
John Free an hour ago
I have to admit I was a bigot it the past. This is another part of my JW history that I look back on feeling ashamed. When a good friend came out as gay it was a game-changer, he's a wonderful human being and it would be wrong to judge him because of his nature. Great ad.
 
talesin
talesin 38 minutes ago

I look back on feeling ashamed.
If I may?
Don't feel shame. Feel sorry that you may have hurt someone, and realize that now you KNOW better, and now you DO better. Be proud that you overcame the programming. Shame is subjective. You were misled - the shame lies with those who steered you wrong. xx tal
 
Simon
Simon 35 minutes ago

The cynic in me knows that campaigns like this by big corporations are carefully considered and contrived to make them appear loving and caring and to offset some of the criticism that comes their way for their other big business crimes and misdemeanours.
So, we have to accept the benefits even if we don't always buy the whole farm.
Everyone brought up as a JW was likely a bigot in some way at some point. I think I'm probably quite liberal now in my outlook but don't know if I know any gay people - I've never felt the need to indicate to straight people that I think the idea of them having sex is OK, so don't know why would I feel the need to tell anyone else.
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Dogpatch
"How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
by Dogpatch 5 years ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty 4 days ago
AndersonsInfo
Reveal article: 6 ways religious exemption laws are exploited - Excellent!
by AndersonsInfo 11 days ago
Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
Tenacious
Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 8 days ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4886432145473536/useful-macdonalds-advert-taiwan-teaching-tolerance-attacked-religious-bigots






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ "How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
/  





 

"How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
by Dogpatch 5 years ago 55 Replies latest 2 months ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

Remember the video of all the nice dudes who were on the Governing Body in the 70s? (Here's a refresher).
Well this is what their lives were really like - the same as when I was there. Heck, I was 20 years old and ready for anything - I had been warned about some of this stuff at Bethel. But Keith tells it really funny. This is on this site but years ago I talked to him and cleaned up the grammer a little and put it up on my site, and here it is! Take THAT, you stupid video!
Randy



Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
52 years as a J.W., born in 1949 in Azusa, Calif., raised in Glendora, Calif. My father was D.Fed in 1961 for not going to the Kingdom Hall he was assigned to, {AHHHHH the love} by 3 brothers who later all left or got kicked out of the borg too! Pioneered in Salina, Kansas 1968-1970. Was at N.Y. Bethel 1970-1974. Worked in the laundry, under Ken Dowling {AHHHH the love}, bindery, East freight elevator in Bld.1 ended up HOE ROW Spanish Awake, under Richard Wheelock {AHHHHH the love}. Married in March 1974-July 2001,My Wife left me after a 27 year marriage, because I no longer wanted to be in the borg.
Lost my sister, 99% of all my friends {AHHHHHH the love} and could have lost my 2 children, but they were treated so badly {AHHHHH the love} because I left, that they left too. We all are doing fine now. Now my ex-wife will have nothing to do with me, them or her grand children. She turned her back on her own father who was D-fed in 1958! He later blew his brains out, because his 2 children, would have nothing to do with him, plus he was not allowed to see his only grand children {my children} AHHHHHHH the LOVE!!! and why? The only thing he was doing wrong was smoking.
My father could see me and my children even though he had not been a JW for 40 years and he was smoking too! The only difference is, he even knowing it was all bull.s**t, got reinstated back in 1965 so he was just "inactive"; for 40 years. It is absolutely amazing what you can get people to believe in! "by their love you will recognize them" - THIS STATEMENT WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE! Adolf Hitler said, "The bigger the lie, the easier it is to make them believe!"
Part 1
I went to Bethel March 21,1970. At the time you had to be a pioneer for two years to apply, by the time I left in 1974 they were calling people in who had never pioneered. The average stay was 5 months ( they had signed up for 4 years). The reason they left was, well, it was hell.
One of the reasons was, Knorr hated Bethelites, but he loved the Gilead students and why? Because when they screwed up they were thousands of miles away! Just before I got there, they had kicked out over 60 homosexuals (at one time). The would kick out 1-2 Bethelites a week. He always had nothing but problems with Bethelites. He would say "I can replace any of you, with a 25 cent stamp". Before I went, people told me that at Bethel, Knorr was called "Pa Pa". I never heard that in 4 years, I did hear people call him "King Knorr" They said the place was full of love. Instead it was run like the military by a bunch of Germans: Knorr, Suiter, Henshel, Franz, Swingle, Larson, Wheelock, Weisgarber. Very unfeeling and cold.
The only place that wasn't cold was the laundry in the 119 building. Over 100 degrees in the summer months, with no A/C, in was in a basement with no windows. Some of us would have to take salt tablets or we would pass out from the heat. I took them, because I worked on the clothes dryers (add another 10 degrees) I also ironed and steamed sisters clothes. I also worked in "check in" were we sorted all the "brothers and sisters" dirty clothes.Great job for a 20 year old "brother" sorting all those bras and panties. LOL. We called the guys underwear "Twinks" because if you opened them up, there was "a surprise in every package." Some days we would fold underwear all day. The rule was a pound a minute.
I worked there for 22 months. It was the penal institution of the home. Sometimes if a "brother" turned in his 30 day notice (before your time was up) they would send you there, to sweat it out. Or if you messed up in other departments like the waiter crew, they would sent you there, if you screwed up. Like my friend Gary Kennedy who was sent there after he destroyed $300 worth of plates in one crash. He was a "happy-go-lucky" type who really didn't fit in.
They wanted him out, so they put the screws on. My overseer Ken Dowling had a meeting with the check in crew and said "we were to report anything Gary said (that wasn't the party line) to him" He latter said to me and I Quote "Gary will DIE at Armageddon because he doesn't do what I tell him to do". "You do believe that? brother Casarona". "ERRRR. "YES sir" I said. When you are 20 years old and they give you (when you get there) the Bethel handbook "Dwelling together in Peace and Unity": Where it says that your Bethel overseer is basically appointed my God. What else would you say? We were to report anything we heard or saw to the "brothers" in the Bethel office (Gestapo) You really didn't know who to trust and everyone was a possible informer. With the righteous new boys being the very worse.
My first table was upper dinning room, Houston Roberts table head. Some tables were fun, this one was boring, the table head would set the mood for the table. IF you missed to many breakfasts (morning worship) he would turn you in. He had the personality of a bowl of "creamed spinach" He had been at Bethel for 10 years and was waiting to get married. His girl friend sat across from me and had been there for 3 years.they had 1 more year to go before they could have sex.The rule then was 14 years in full time service, before you could get married and stay at Bethel. Aah the love.
As for the food, everyone talks about. Breakfast was O.K.( most of the time it was Ice cold after Knorrs rantings) lunch was the best meal of the day and dinner sucked. Hardly anyone went to dinner a hundred guys out of maybe 1300 went. Not because we weren't hungry. The food was bad, leftovers or squash stuffed with mystery meat. Most the time there just wasn't enough food. If you sat on the table with 7-8 hungry guys, by the time the plates come around to you, the food was gone. You pass the plates out again wait 5-10 mins. to come back. They would pass the plates around the other direction, get to you and guess what? Nothing left, now its pray time and there is no more food after the pray. You had 15 mins. to eat. None of the big shots ever went to dinner and why? It sucked.
The shortest Bethel stay was 20 seconds. One "brother" drove up on his motorcycle, as Bob Lang (Bethel office) was walking across the street in from of the 124 building. He asked Bob "Is this Bethel?" Bob said "yes it is". He said "great I'm here to report in" Bob said "is that your motorcycle?" He said "yes, why?" Bob said "because you can't have one of those here". "No?". NO! "OK" the brother said "BYE" and drove off. Lucky guy. P.S. no bikes were permitted either.
Part 2
Back to the food. The saying was "Its the best food in the world before they cook it." The coffee was really bad. They would take a 55 lb. bag of good coffee beans and boil the s**t out of it. The joke was if anyone could find the guy that made the coffee, and kill him, our production would go up and Armageddon could finally come. When they had liver for lunch only half the family showed up, which (saved them money) an old timer named Wilbur Ruth about 85 years old would walk through the factory and tells what was for lunch each day, (we never knew ahead of time) he would say "liver to make you quiver and ice cream to make you shiver".
Poor Wilbur. One day my friend Tom Plank operator of Press 6 and me pulled Wilbur aside and asked him why he never got married. "Oh. I WANTED to, but back in the 30's and 40's we couldn't get married and stay at Bethel we had to made a vow of celibacy, and Armageddon was going to COME any day. When Knorr showed up with a wife after an assembly in the early 50's that changed everything, but for me it was too late. I was in my late 60's. Who would have someone like me?"
Then there were the married couples who never had kids (not allowed to at Bethel). Some of those women were down right bitter. Armageddon was coming any day, why would you want to have kids? One of the bitterest old ladies there was Ester Lopaz. One of "sister" Knorr's best friends. I meet her on Doc Dixon's table it was, what we called a "dead" table. Dead because no one talked to each other. You had the righteous "company men" and the factory workers on the same table. You would go, eat and get the hell out of there.
At Bethel when a plate of food came on a table, the table head would pass it down the right side, then when the next plate came, it would go down the left side, so everyone would get a fair chance at some food. Not on the good doctor's table, his wife would always get it first. So if you sat on the other side, close to the end, you were screwed. One day we were having fried chicken. By the time it got to the end, all was left was chicken backs. So I took three backs. They passed it out. Came to the end again. All backs. Did it again. All backs. So there I'm with a plate of all chicken back bones piled high. Dixon looks over at me and says "You sure are making a PIG out of yourself, brother Casarona"!
The love started my first day at the table. Ester said "Who are you?". "I'm brother Casarona". "Well, where are you from, brother Casarona?" I said "Kansas" (though I was raised in California, I pioneered in Kansas, you would never tell an old timer you were from California - they hated Bethelites from California, way too liberal.) She said "well, where were you from before Kansas?" I said. Errrrrr California". She said "IT FIGURES" (already judged). "Well" I said "you sure can feel the LOVE on this table!". She said "WELL sometimes love is to correct the brothers when they NEED it". I said "WELL SISTER Lopaz I think I'll let the BROTHERS do that". So the war began.
After 4 years, I turned in my 30 day notice in February 1974. Everyone thought Armageddon was right around the corner, and thus any one leaving Bethel, the house of God ( and his protection) the biggest possible fool. At my last lunch at Bethel, Ester looked over at me and with this big grin said "You better eat EVERYTHING on your plate, because when you leave here, you are going to STARVE!" I didn't say a word, but I thought to myself, I would rather starve out there, then eat one more meal in here with all you self-righteous assholes. I guess God only had enough power to save those at Bethel.
10 years ago I made my only trip back to Bethel. I made a point of tracking "sister" Lopaz down. YES!. The old bat was still alive - well in her 90's. I had her paged. She looked at me and said "YOU, YOU.YOU". I said "Yes its me, and you were WRONG!" I grabbed her hand and put it on my belly and said, "I DIDN'T STARVE to death, as you can see!"
I was in the group that got the first new boy talks in the spring of 1970. There were 8 of them, Knorr gave the "sex at Bethel talk" (or why there is no sex, at Bethel talk). I would give a $1,000 bucks for a copy of that talk. There were 53 of us guys and 3 "sisters" in there. The girls faces were red. One of the quotes was Knorr saying "I don't want you to do anything with IT, except PEE, for 4 years."
I was also the first group of Bethelites to be assigned out to other congregations. Before our group, you would have to go to Brooklyn Heights or King County for a year. If you were good, they would give you an outside hall. My hall was Inwood, at the very tip of Manhattan. It was a 45-60 mins. subway ride. So book studies was a 2 hour train ride, for a 1 hour meeting.
On my first ride there, I met a guy, a Bethelite who was leaving after 4 years, My first day was his last. He was only 24 years old. He looked like 40. So I asked him "Do you have any words of advice?" "YEAH" he said. "Keep your mouth SHUT and do you work. They don't give a s**t about you here". WOW I thought this guy as a BAD attitude! That will NEVER happen to me! HA!
Well if you want, I guess there will be a part III. I'll tell you how I helped kill someone there.
Part 3
Don't get me wrong. There was no one more self-righteous then me at 19. Moved to Kansas at 18 to pioneer and even printed up cards that said,
"HAVE SWORD WITH TRAVEL"---------contact Casarona: Salina Kansas------ AAA (Available After Armageddon)-----SS (sacred service).
Oh, I was full of myself! Thought of myself as a spiritual gun fighter. To defend TRUTH, JUSTICE and all the WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY stood for. Little did I know I had no chance of winning my first big gun fight!. We have meet the enemy, and he is US.
There is nothing more righteous then a new boy at Bethel. So there you are at the center of the WORLD WIDE WORK. HOME of the GB. You know you are going to see the "Shakina Light" at any moment. Then it happens. The lies, the pride, the cruelty, the politics, the favoritism. You say to yourself, well it just a few people - I'm SURE the "brothers" in real power have no Idea what these overseers are doing. So what do you do?
There is a chain of command, and one thing you would NEVER do is go over that overseer's head that is called "END YOUR BETHEL CAREER IMMEDIATELY." Most of us who went there wanted to make it our life's work.
We saw it many times. Some overseer would pull some s**t. Like what my overseer said about a sister that worked in the laundry. He told my roommate that "That sister L. is like a cow in HEAT she wants it bad." Not a disfellowshipping offense, but nothing a loving "brother" would say. Sooooooooo
The new guy would go to Max Larson in the factory or George Couch in the Bethel home and tell him what happened. After they heard the story, the first question they would ask is "So tell me BROTHER - how LONG have you been here?". They would say something like "2 years, sir!". "Well brother (newboy) brother Pompous has been here 22 years! Thank you for coming by." Goodbye Bethel career. 2 months later he would be on a sewing machine in the bindery, the Penal institution of the factory. (The laundry was the penal institution of the home.)
It is a "Good old boy country Club" and you are NOT a member. You are not even considered a real member of the family until your 4 years are up. Then, when you have eaten 4 years of s**t and told them you "LIKE it" you can become a "company man" and become one of them. Seg Heil!
So anyway, back to the gun fight. The stuff my overseer was doing, well the stink was rising to the heavens, but what it do? Our assistant overseer told a ex-CO what was happening. He said A LOT of these things were going on and some one should step up and say something. So him and 2 other ex-COs felt the same way. The were the 3 Freds. There names were FRED BARNES, FRED FREDEAN and FRED HILMO. Great men who had of vision of truth, righteous, fairness. But those things had no chance in the gun fight with the "country club boys," the real power at Bethel.
They asked anyone that had a problem with and overseer to come to the Towers library. Over a hundred brothers showed up and started telling their stories. Oh my GOD. So after all was said, Fred Hilmo said he would go and talk to Knorr about it. So he told Knorr what was going on. Knorr said "we should have a meeting with all the brothers (REBELS) to have a discussion on these matters". You know what he was planning to do. He was going to play Jehu on their asses!
My time is running out, so tomorrow I will tell you in Part 4, about the big shoot out known at Bethel as "Black Thursday."
Part 4
Black Thursday September 1972
Knorr gathered all the Bethel "Heavies" and GB to the KH in the 119 building. The Three Freds (circuit overseers) and about 50 brothers. That's right, only 50. The other guys chickened out, they knew it was going to be a blood bath. I was there with 7 others from the laundry.
It started out with Dan Smolley (not even 30 years old and partaking) telling about what Max Larson (head of the whole factory) told him "there was NO WAY he was one of the ANOINTED!" Max at the time was a member of the great crowd. I mean how could God pick him, some kid? When Max was there at Gods house for over 40 years? Sometimes I wonder how God picks those anointed guys anyway, God can be strange sometimes.
Well the stories kept flowing. They were shaking the pillars of the the organization! Knorr got MADDER and MADDER. He would have loved to have killed us all, if could have! Everyone knew these men were above the law. How dare we - Where the hell is JEHU, when you need him?
As Knorr was ranting, all of a sudden Fred Franz stood up and said "These men are appointed to there positions of (power) responsibility NOT because of their spiritual qualifications. BUT because of their secular abilities!". The room was silent.
Knorr said "we will LOOK into these matters". END OF MEETING.
Soooooooooo.What happened? There was ONE committee meeting. It was with my laundry overseer.They gave him a slap on the hand. He was moved out of the laundry, and by the time I left Bethel 2 years later, was promoted to where else, the Bethel office! He was "a company man" and "company men" always take care of there own. Just look a the elders in any KH.
They didn't kick the 3 Freds out (bad publicity and we know how the "brothers" hate publicity). Instead they just make their lives living hell. They even put Fred Barnes (in his 50's) on a "gather" a machine that even 19 year olds have a problem staying up with. He had a heart attack. They were kind enough to take him off it.
The rest of us "laundry boys" were screwed. We had done the unforgivable, by bringing up wrong doings of Bethel overseers. Our Bethel careers were over. There was only one thing left to do, serve our time and get out.
I was sent to the bindery. It made the laundry look like heaven. They put me on a sewing machine. It was the night shift. A sewing machine is a machine were you sit and sew signatures together in a flipping motion that you do 40,000-50,000 a day. After three months, I was put on a bindery line were you would stand, all day between 2 machines. You would take the book out of the "rounder" and put in the "back liner"----16,000 to 17,000 times a day. If you begged your line overseer, he might give you a 10 min. break to go to the bathroom every four hours. They could have bought a machine to do the same thing but it only cost them $22 a month for a warm body to do the job.The saying was "there is no shaft at Bethel, every job is a privilege of service". I don't care if you pee on me, but don't call in WATER!
One time a army general come through on a tour of the factory. He was shaking his head. The tour guide said "I'm sure you could get your troops to do the same thing". He said " Are you kidding. No way."
Harold Dies was a fruit cake. A lot of those old timers were weird - guys in their 70's that never got married. A friend of mind went to his room in the 124 building one time, it was winter time it was a little chilly in the room, so Harold asked him if he was cold. He said "a little." Harold had a fake fireplace in his room so he went over and turned it on. It had a 25 watt light bulb in it, it even made crackly noises. He said " isn't that better?" And then there was the "Dick Dasterdly" incident.
Part 5
Bindery. 5th floor Building 3 bindery line 5. The machines conquer all.
Standing in the same spot, doing the same motion thousands of times a day.You would get the 1000 yard stare (seen in the war movies). The first week, you would think about everyone you ever meet. The next week you would think about every movie you ever saw. The next week, about every place you would like to travel to. The next week think about every mistake you made. The next week, someone would walk up and ask you "what are you thinking about?" "NOTHING" you would say. You were brain dead.
There is eternality! Some hours felt like it.
A good friend of mine, Jim Pipkorn (also from the laundry) who was also shafted to the "end sheet gluer" in the bindery, got so depressed that for months, he would come back to his room, make himself some dinner and go to bed, at about 7:00 p.m. I asked him why he was doing that, he said "It makes the days go by quicker."
We were counting our time. It was just like Viet Nam. You would ask a guy how long he had left. He would say "3 years 2 months to go". We would say "You Poor bastard - that is after 1975, so you will never have any sex". You should have seen the look on his face.
Of course there is no racial prejudice in the Lord's house! About 20% of the Bethelites were black. About 60% of the guys in the bindery were black. When I asked Calvin Chyke (assistant factory overseer) why that was, he said it was "because the black 'brothers' have a NATURAL rhythm" which you need on the machines. I was dying every day. I prayed "please God Get me out of here."
I found this picture of this old guy with grey hair, he was praying with a bible and a loaf of bread on a table, hands folded, maybe you have seen it? I hung it up in my locker. One day my floor overseer Phill Gouckinbil saw it and said "what is this?" This guy is not a witness! Because that is not a New World Translation Bible on the table." I said that "I thought he was! That he was one of the anointed ones, behind the the iron curtain and that was the only bible he could get!" "Mmmmmm" he said.
Well It must of worked. I got a job change 2 weeks later to the east freight elevator building one. I thought I died and went to heaven. I could walk around and I was my own boss. WOW, freedom. That is where I meet the pressroom animals. Great guys.
There was the 5th floor ink room which was the "mash unit" of the factory. These guys got away with murder. They had coffee breaks. They even had a place they could hide and one of them could take a nap, as the others were on look out. Their overseer was Norm Brecky. Really cool guy who would go to bat for his boys, which he did do, more then once.
One day, down by glue room, I was standing there with Mike Stillman and 3 other guys. Mike had this big wooden paddle about six ft. long. He was beating the harden glue with it and saying "FEED THE ROUNDER (a cruel bindery machine). SLAP. FEED THE ROUNDER. SLAP! Please don't beat me, brother overseer. FEED THE ROUNDER. SLAP!" We were all laughing. Just then walking up from behind us was none other then "Liver lips Linderman", head bindery overseer! He stood there for a minute quaking. Finally he said "Just WHAT do think would have happened if it was a TOUR that came over that bridge instead of ME!" Mike just stood there, with his paddle over his shoulder and said, "Well I guess they would think we are normal like everyone else!" Oh MY GOD, we are so screwed, I thought. Linderman stood there with smoke coming out of his ears and with a hateful smile said "YOU HAVE DONE A VERY BAD THING" and walked off. That was it, I thought. Bindery here we come! But no, Norm came through again.
That is, what is so nice about Bethel, it is the love! and there is NO fear of man. LOL
Part 6
I 'm sorry all of this is not in order. I'm writing as all this comes back to me.
My first room assignment was room 33 in the 129 building. It was and old building, built around the turn of the century. The society owned it but it had worldly people in it, too. I'm not sure why but maybe there was a law that prevented them from being kicked out or something. It was a 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment (about 1000 sq. ft.) There were 7 of us in there, all new boys ( less then one year there). There was 2 guys in each of the bedrooms and 3 guys in the living room. I got the back bedroom with some righteous Spanish kid from Texas (forgot his name). The bedroom was about 10x10, there were 2 beds, 2 desks and 2 dressers in there. It was so small you had to go outside to change your mind, LOL. Lots of cockroaches. We would have roach races. We would catch these roaches, put them in glass jar, draw a circle on the kitchen floor, put the glass jar in the middle and let them go. The first roach that got to the circle WON! The prize was getting squashed.
There was a 5 inch hole in our bathroom floor, next to the toilet.You could look down and see some guy sitting there on the can. So one day when this guy was sitting on his toilet, we got a glass of water and then flushed our toilet, (which he could hear) and through the water down the hole on this "brothers" head. You should have seen the look on his face.
Work is over at 5:40, so on Thursdays (my meeting night) we had to run home, change and jump on a subway train, about an hour ride (no time to eat) to make it on time to the ministry school. My congregation, Inwood, was about 80% black and Spanish. God I love the Black KHs. They are the nicest people you would ever meet. The best hall I have ever been in! You had to be down to earth and be able to "shuck and jive" with them. They (like most people) hated "uppity" people. I was lucky, there were only six Bethelites in my hall. Two tight-ass company men, Daryl Christianson and Larry Fisher both elders and 4 new boys, me, Dennis Miller, Dave Poroit, and Mike Adams who I later heard had a break down at the farm. I heard he tried to kill himself. I wonder why?
Anyway if we were lucky, the sisters (at the hall) would give you some food in a brown paper bag at the end of the meeting, to take home with you we would eat it on the train. You would have to wait until someone else was ready to leave before you could go. The reason was at the time, we were suppose to travel in "pairs" to prevent getting "mugged" and just about everyone who was at Bethel (in 4 years) got mugged at least once. They told us to have at least couple of bucks on us at all times. The reason was if you did get mugged and you didn't have any money on you, they (the muggers) would beat the s**t out of you, thinking you had it hidden on you somewhere and you just didn't want to give it up. You just don't want to piss off those crack heads! it was hard at times to have even 2 bucks on you. One friend of mine ended up in the hospital after they took a lead pipe to his head. The reason he was a "white boy" in Harlem with no money.
You would see the strangest stuff on the subway. You would be there eating your brown bag dinner and all of a sudden, some tramp would be there and start, "jacking off" right in front of you. Or the door open and some 400 lb. black guy would get on the train wearing a pink "tu tu", and you know he wasn't doing to a costume party.THE LAST THING you would ever do is stare at them. Don Broux (xBethel & XCO) happened to catch a guy's eyes for 2 SECONDS as the train was stopping. The guy jumped up, went over to Don and slugged him in the nose and said "WHAT THE F.K ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" It was Don's last week at Bethel - he got married 4 days later with a broken nose. Another friend of mine was just sitting on the train and this black guy walks up to him, with his 3 year old kid and points to my friend and says "DO YOU SEE THIS BOY? pointing to my friend, "THIS IS A WHITEY! YOU HATE WHITEY! YOU KILL WHITEY! then just walked off. Those fun New Yorkers.
On one of those hot summer nights. when we got no dinner, from the sisters, after the meeting. I got off the subway, clothes drenched with sweat. Walked back to the 129, got to my room and just started crying for no reason. I went to the kitchen to open the refrigerator door to see a bottle of "cold duck" I had bought a week earlier. Grabbed it and drank the whole thing in 3 mins. The room started to spin, I laid down on my bed and after a few mins. threw up on me and the bed I just laid there crying. "Are you OK," my roommate asked. "I'm sick" I said. And I was - sick of heart.
I thought It was really true. "They really didn't give a s**t about us."
Part 7
People would ask me "how long do you plan on staying at Bethel?" I would say "forever!" or 4 years which ever comes first."
Besides the about 48 hours you worked there a week, you would have other duties, too. There was dish duties. Since the waiters worked about from about 6 in the morning to about 4 in the afternoon, they needed someone to do the supper dishes. About once a month the Bethel family got that privilege. Funny thing is you NEVER saw the heavies do them. They were fun especially in the summer time. The worst job was working the dish washing machine "HOT END" - there was 2 brothers loading the front end and 2 guys taking the 140 degree dishes off the back end (your hands were on fire). That is were I first meet Dave Borga. He was the waiter that was in charge that night. He put me on the HOT END by myself. He just set up on a counter laughing. It was like that "I LOVE LUCY" show where she is in the factory with a conveyor belt. Any way that was the last dish duty for me.
Then you had the watchmen duties. Once every 2-3 years in the home. It was an all night duty and started about 9 p.m. The Watchman would get a day off. You would fill in. IT was very creepy. It was dark and you had to walk through all 3 buildings 119, 117 and 124 (not the 129) Three times and punch the time clock you had with you. At about 3:00 a.m in this dark basement of the 124 all of a sudden this guy jumps in front of me and SCREAMS. I thought I died. It was guess who? It was Peter R., the real night watchmen, he said "he couldn't sleep and wanted to have some FUN with me"! What a JERK. About 2 years later, he was asked to leave Bethel. It seemed he liked to sneak into the sisters bathrooms in the 117 building and lock the toilet door.and do some free PEEPING. I guess all those long nights by himself got to him. He is an elder in Salem Oregon now.
There was another guy, while I was there, who could beat that one. He would sneak into MARRIED couples rooms (in the middle of the night) and lay on the floor next to the wife and copped a feel. Now you know why Knorr hated Bethelites.
Anyway we got side tracked. Back to dish duties. Why do a dish duty? When you could get someone else to do them for you. So we would trade them or sell them.There was this ONE guy Allen Richards who would do your 2 hour dish duty for .89 cents, that was the price a 1/2 gallon of "Canadian Ace" beer, the worst beer ever made. I bet he felt great the next day! So if you could get some poor schmuck to do it for .89 cents and you could get some side job for $1.75 and hour, do the math!
Which brings us to the next subject."G" jobs. NO ONE really knows where the name came from. But it is any job you did to make more money outside of the 22 dollars a month Bethel gave you. There were many different types. Some guys in the pressroom ran "the paper route" started at 3:00 a.m on Sunday mornings. I did it once. Not for me. Some guys did catering jobs at weddings, great tips plus you could keep all the half drunk wine bottles, when it was over. There was a waiting list to work there. Some guys painted apartments. My friend Jim Pipkorn worked at a funeral home in "the village".The stories I could tell you about that place, that would be a whole 2 page thread in itself. Dave Borga, Jim Pipkorn's roommate was the King of all "G jobbers". They still talk about him to this day in the "new boy talks". He had a FULL TIME job working the night shift at a toy factory in Jersey. That's right - almost 90 hours a week of work!. Needless to say he did last long, at that pace.
I worked washing pots and pans in a high-end restaurant 3 blocks from Bethel in "the Heights". To this day, I will not order turkey and dressing in a restaurant. They would serve these little loafs of bread in there and people would eat half of them. They would put out their cigarette butts IN them. The waiters would bring them back to the kitchen and throw them in a box, on the floor, next week it was? Well you guessed it!
I also so worked in two liqueur stores one in "Inwood" and one in "The Heights." Say $1.75 an hour GOOD money. I was making .08 cents an hour, working for Jehovah. I guess Jehovah doesn't believe in minimum wage. The extra 10-20 bucks a week made a BIG difference in one's comfort there. Once or twice a week, you could get a "Hero and a Quart" down at Pioneer deli (that was the name of the place, believe it or not). If you were really rolling, you would buy a chuck steak and frozen french fries and cook it up in your room, on your electric skillet. THAT MY FRIEND WAS LIVING!
One day at lunch on Doc Dixon's table the whole upper dinning room was pretty quiet. One table was really loud, it was the tour table....he keep looking over and giving them a look like "how dare they disturb my eating......I said "you tell they are NOT Bethelites".....he knew what I meant... and said "I think you have a bad attitude about Bethel".. I said "I have a bad attitude about New York City." He said "Are you kidding... look at all the great things you can do here, you have the plays... and fine dining!"... I said " Brother Dixon....I don't know your New York City.... Our New York City is a hero and a quart of beer once a week... If we are lucky."
I knew a guy who who was mugged in New York... The guy put a gun to his head and said "give me your money or I'm going to blow your BRAINS out"! The man said " YOU better shoot, because I know one thing, you can live in New York with out brains, but you GOT to have MONEY"!
P.S... that is the only story, I have told that is NOT true.
Part 8
Well it is 4:00 a.m. in the morning and I can't sleep, so might has well write.
Everything at Bethel is seniority... "how long have you been here?" If you wanted a better room you need some seniority, rooms would go up on a bid system. If you had more time in, then another guy, and a room went up for bid, you got it. If you were a new boy, and all your friends were new boys, it could be a year or two before you got a decent room and 10 years to get a room with its own bathroom, pre towers days. There were 2 man rooms, 3 man rooms, 4 man rooms, and 7 man rooms... everything from an 7 man room in the ghetto, the 129 building, to a luxury apartment in its own building (like the good Doctor got). I don't have a problem with a system like that....a system that rewards seniority and education.
Oppppppps, did I say education......Yes, I guess I said it.. Remember at the time... "higher education" was HIGHLY DISAPPROVED of (you can tell from my spelling)... and after high school, there was only ONE thing to do and that was to pioneer. We only had a few years left before 1975 and we didn't need NO stinking education, we needed to SAVE as many people as possible! A couple of people I knew, went to college and GOT so much SHIT for it, you wouldn't believe it. And they needed to get .s**t for it too, because "the society" knows the DEATH of any religion is education and knowledge! So that is why most of the JWs today, in their 40's 50's and 60's are blue collar workers.
You were a real rebel if you went to college, then. Greg Chase was my press operator of "HOE 10" after Bethel he went to college to be a chiropractic physician. He told me years later, that when he was going to college, they hated him in his local KM, how dare he try and make something of himself! However after he got out of school, different story.... "The Brothers" called him DR. Chase. They loved him. They wanted him to go back to Bethel, they wined and dined him and his wife. They offered him a very nice "comp package"....he said "NOPE".
Sooooooooo... at Bethel you were REWARDED for not listening to them about getting a "higher" education. They treated you better (with more respect) and you got a better room, and a better job! They actually treated you like a real person. Guys would come to Bethel with a degree. Do you think they put them in the bindery? Nope, they got a great office job, no machines for them.
AAAAHHh, the first glue of the "double standard" in the Lord's house - those wonderful "unwritten rules." As they say if it looks like .s**t and smells like s**t, and taste like s**t, it COULD possibly just be.
Sorry, I got sidetracked again. Working in the laundry I got to see into all the rooms there, except Knorr's (you had to be Jesus to enter there) and there are some really nice ones. To save money, most of the rooms in the 107 and 124 buildings were dormitory style, with one women's and one man's bathroom on each floor. That's why it took so much seniority to get a room with a bath - there wasn't many of them, then. They watched you like a hawk in the 124, 107 and 119. It seemed like that most of the tight asses lived in the 124 and 107, though there was plenty of cool guys mixed in too.
Then the Society bought the Towers Hotel. They opened up 3 floors for bid. GREAT rooms all with their own bathrooms. If you had a year or more, you could get in. You would have thought everyone would have wanted them, but since the hotel was full of worldly people, most of the tight asses stayed where they were. I was one, of the first people in the Towers, room T 211. I didn't have the seniority to get a room, but a guy on my table did, Steve H., and he wanted a new room mate - which brings me to my next subject - ROOMMATES.
Hay! There are all types - and God bless them all. But some of them could make your life a living hell. It wasn't unusual for a newer guy there to bunk with and old timer, but most of the time it was someone you knew, you either worked with, or went to the same KH with. When you were new you didn't have a choice - you could get anyone.
My old pioneer partner Roy Baty come to Bethel about 6 months after me. When he got there he was so self righteous, he made me sick, he reminded me of ME when I first got there. I told him "I don't want to be around you, now Roy, come back and we'll talk again in 6 months." He got off to a bad start, they put him in a room in the 124 with Eugene Alcorn, a black "brother" from Detroit. ROY hadn't even been there a couple of weeks and got a taste of "Bethel Justice." It seems he and his roommate Eugene got into a fight over the radio. Roy wanted if off at 11:00 p.m. and turned it off. Eugene got up and turned it on. Roy got up and turned it off. Eugene turned it on... you get the idea.
In the brawl that followed, the sink in the room got busted. Now most guys would cover for each other. Instead, Eugene went to the Bethel office the next morning and told "the brothers" that, his white room mate wouldn't let him listen to his radio and beat him up, that is why the sink was busted. They hauled Roy in. How it works at Bethel is whoever gets there FIRST with the story, usually wins. The reasoning is, only the righteous one would naturally report the behavior of the unrighteous one. So by the time Roy got there, the decision was already made - Welcome to the bindery, Roy! You really didn't want "the Brothers" to know your name at Bethel. Once your name got out there for any reason, once you got a "REP" you were screwed. "OH yes... I seem to have heard or your name, before brother Trouble maker." We have a machine just for you. You really wanted to be the man with no name. a.k.a.THX-1138.
I don't know what to say about Steve H. My first room mate in a 2 man room, except he kind of creeped me out. He had all the mannerisms of an NPG (non-practicing gay, and there were plenty of those there, and quite of few practicing too. There were guys who loved the fact that there were 1000 19-23 year olds guys and few women at the Lord's house. Don't get me wrong! I love gays NOW, but I 'm speaking from my mind set of 1972. This guy had way too much clinginess for me. He would say "So what are WE doing today?" "I don't know, what ARE are we doing today?" sorry Charlie.
If you weren't Gay or and NPG at Bethel, you were homophobic. I knew some Bethelites who beat the s**t out of some gay guys in "the Heights" one night just for the hell of it. AH the love. There was this one new boy that got jumped walking to the Squibb building from the 124, by 2 thugs. It guess he was a black belt before coming into the borg. He kicked their asses. One guy was dragging the other guy back to their car and begging him to stop the beating. He went to George Couch the next day to turn himself in. George said don't worry about it. He was our hero, we loved him.
 
Part 9
The the worst thing, someone could call you at Bethel, was a "Jack". As in "that guy is a real Jack, he doesn't work at all". The other term not used very much anymore, was "Pot Licker" used basically the same way. There has been some bad things done at Bethel. You name it, someone has done it. But the absolute worst possible thing, a Bethelite could do is be a THEIF. Hay! people having sex with each other people happens everyday...that's normal. But stealing from some poor Bethelite making .73 cents a day - That should be a STONING offence. We had three of them, in the 4 years I was there. They would wait until we got paid (we got paid in cash) and go into the your locker at work and rip you off. It never happen to me, but I had friends who had to borrow money to buy subway tokens. Because of this "brother".
One of these guys was one of the most self righteous assholes you ever saw. He would walk around the factory with an "Aid book" under his arm. He gave a text comment one time and said " I have walked the floors of the 124 at night and I have heard Rock n Roll music coming out of the brothers rooms." Trying to out-righteous even the GB. Sure enough 6 months later it was announced "Brother LeRoy Righteous has DFed for stealing". Isn't that always the way it is, its always the "more righteous ones" you need to watch... "the best defense is an good offense."
When some guy got kicked out of Bethel, Knorr would "Have him/her for breakfast." Meaning a half hour to 45 min. lecture on whatever their sins were. It was getting so bad that once or twice a week he would go into this rantings. It was very discouraging and it would have been nice to have had a hot meal sometimes... Soooooo... When Knorr took one of his trips to the south pacific islands (always went in the winter time, for some reason) in 1973, while he was gone, the GB voted him off the text table! . Boy was he pissed when he got back! The next week at the Gilead graduation he said "We are starting a new arrangement for the text comments the GB will now rotate, so that all members of the GB, will have a turn at leading the text comments and I DECIDED TO LET THEM HAVE IT!" Nice of him.
Old Bethel Joke.......
Phone rings in 5th floor bindery - new boy picks it up and says "This is Jack's mule barn, which Jack ASS do you want?" On the other end "DO YOU KNOW WHO THIS IS?" new boy "NO". Other end "WELL ..THIS IS MAX LARSON FACTORY OVERSEER!"...... new boy......."Do you know this is?". Max Larson says "NO" new boy says "GOOD" and hangs up... True Story.
I got a new room mate in T-211 Towers my old buddy Jack Sutton, one of the X Laundry guys. He was from Phoenix AZ. I was from California, so we decided decorate our room in a western motif. We had some old western posters on the wall. One of the posters was of a bull fighter. The house keepers loved our room and had many of there coffee breaks there. Anyway one night about 8:00 p.m. we get this knock on the door. It is Curtis Johnson (newly appointed) home servant to the Towers. This Guy looks and talks just like the Nazis in "Raiders of the lost Ark" the one with thick glasses and smiling all the time. We said "come on in" he said "NO...brothers, I'm here to talk about the your room decorations". "OK what about them?" "We don't like them". "Who is we?" "Well the Bethel office." "Really?"... "REALLY" he said... "Like, look at that Bull fighting poster on the wall, of yours... a tour might think we like killing animals." "Brother Johnson NO tours come through the towers and we never looked at that poster that way." "Never mind that, we want it down". "Alright" we said " we will take it down"... we never said when. When we moved out a year later we took it down. Seig Heil! We haven't seen the end of our dear "brother" Johnson.
 
Part 10
There were guys at Bethel, who had GREAT jobs, like Don Broux. He was the receptionist at the 124 Desk, checking in and "checking out" ...all the bethel tours and "hot" sisters. On they're way through the "Home tour". That my friend, is NOT a real bethel JOB.
There were guys at Bethel, that had GREAT congregations with maybe only 2-4 Bethelities in their halls. One Hall, Midtown had over 80 Bethelites there... 3 old ladies 4 kids and a dog. Odds of getting a home cooked meal on Sunday 0%. Roy Baty said he got cheese and crackers at some old sister's house after he was there a year and 4 months. A good hall could make all the difference, on how long you could "gut it out" especially if you had a girlfriend there.
There were guys at Bethel that, for them, money was NO problem - parents sent them tons of cash every month, rain or shine.
There were guys that had all three, they were called "Golden Boys"... guys that for some reason, God was smiling down on them. They could fall into a bucket of s**t and come up with a rose in their teeth. They had good jobs, great KHs, money, a car, and more often then not a good looking "sister" on their arm. It was great just being around them... You thought that there could be a God after all. That brings me two my next 2 topics: Cars and Women... If your are lucky they will both be FAST. lol
A car at Bethel was total freedom! Why? The first two years there, it was Bethel and your KH, Bethel and your KH. Unless you knew someone with a car to get out of the city. Your only free time was Saturday afternoon & evening. So Saturday you would take the train down to Times Square and walk around looking for a good movie to go to, or walk all the way down to Flatbush Ave in Brooklyn. It wasn't unusual to not find one and walk all the way back. Sunday was service in the morning, meeting in the afternoon and if your were lucky, dinner with a family in the hall that night.
A car could help change some of that. Some guys there had some nice cars too. Jim Pipkorn first had a 65 Ford Mustang rag top. Then a 67 GTO. Dave Borga (Mr G Job king) had a 69 MACH 1, There was a 68 396 rag top Camaro... anyway they all spelled FREEDOM. They did have their problems, one was parking, there was NONE back then. So you would have to drive around "the Heights" looking for a spot. If you got back late, that could take up to an hour driving up and down every street with in a half mile, Or you could park illegally, which many did, sometimes you got lucky. If not it was 10 bucks, 25 dollars for a fire hydrant. The Kennedy boys (Jim and Gary) had a T-Bird and NEVER parked legal! They had Georgia plates and said what the hell. Well, one day they looked for their car and some other car was parked in their spot. The city towed it. They went to the pound to get it. The guy said $356.00 please... they said "KEEP IT."
The other problem was break-ins. If you had a rag top you would NEVER lock your car. The reason was if they wanted in, they would just take a knife to your roof, so you WOULD let them get in. But you would put a chain around the steering wheel and brake pedal. So they could hot wire the car and drive away, but there would be NO brakes. Some guys would put a kill switch in. You would always chain your hood and trunk down. Another thing you would do is always leave your glove box OPEN, to show them there was nothing of value in your car. If you didn't your side mirror would be broken by the next morning.
We would see new cars parked on the street, in "the Heights". In 6 months they looked like pieces of shit. The reason is, most New Yorkers park by SOUND - they back in, until they hear a CRASH. Then they move forward until they hear another CRASH, and then they back up and hear the final CRASH, now your parked. lol
After two years there, things got a little better, I had a fair job on the east freight elevator..... and I bought a car for ONE DOLLAR. That's right one buck. My roommate's girl friend's car, 1968 Fairlane, got totaled in a crash. The insurance paid her off and gave her the car. She gave it to me, for a buck. The car looked liked something out of "Mad Max." It was a complete wreck! Every quarter panel was trashed - It had been rear ended at about 40 mph. the trunk that WAS 5 ft. long was now 3 ft. long, It looked like s**t but it ran. Believe it or not the 2 years I had it "They" (the worldly people) try to steal it 3 times. But she was my baby and she was Freedom.
I took guys to the airport for $5 - good money. I took the guys in my hall to the meetings, they gave me their subway money - 5 times .70 cents per trip good money. And last but not least she could get me far far away "from the House of God."
 
Part 11
More about cars and N.Y.C.
Back then hundreds of cars were stolen in the city everyday! The New York Post said "The average life span of a Corvette (sports car) parked on the street was 24 hours!" One time coming back from R.I. at 2:00 a.m. I took a wrong turn in the South Bronx - NOT a place you would want to be in, that time of night. As I was driving around trying to find my way back to the expressway, I could see the sparks from the cutting torches, people cutting up the cars they stolen the day before. I was Praying "Please God get me out of here."
We would see cars that broke down on the Brooklyn Bridge the night before. They were pushed to the end of the off ramp. We would pass them on our way to the factory at 7:45 a.m. - they had no tires. Pass them again going to lunch, no trunk or doors. Pass them on our way home that night, no engine or seats. Next day, it was just the shell sitting there.
A Brother in my Hall, got a flat tire on the BQE (Brooklyn Queens Expressway) A road that back then had so many pot holes in it, you would swear it was shelled by mortars. Any way, he gets out of the car and starts jacking up the back end... Just then a car pulls up in front of him and 4 black guys jump out and before he could say a word, they start jacking up the front end of his car. "HEY what are you doing?" he asked. "HEY MOTHER F.....KER! YOU GET THE BACK TWO, AND WE WILL GET THE FRONT TWO" they said. "But this is MY car" he said. "YA?" they said. "YES" he said... 10 seconds later they were down the road looking for more parts. This is a true story. If I'm lying am dying.
They didn't always have to work on that Saturday mornings at Bethel. An ex-Bethelite told me that back in the 50s, that some Bethelites jump in their car Friday night after work and tried to drive to Chicago and be back for breakfast by Monday morning. They didn't make it, they crashed the car and three of them died. So Knorr figured that if they had been working, that would have never happened. New light, work on Saturday mornings... that man was a genius.
My soon to be brother-in-law Mlke Stillman had a 1946 orange pickup truck with a camper on the back, made out of old barn wood. The camper door looked like an old out house door, with a half moon on the back, and above the door it said "KEEP ON TRUCKING". Calvin Chyke hauled him into his office one day and told him, that he was a disgrace to the organization... and how dare he put on his truck "KEEP ON TRUCKING" when EVERYONE knew that REALLY meant KEEP ON F....KING! Oh... those brothers they just love to have fun with us. There are two types of people in the "Lord's house" the testers and the testees.
As Bob Dylan said, "Some of us are prisoners, and some us are guards."
I was walking to the the factory one morning in the winter of 1974. I walked by my car and some kids sprayed painted my car with the words "F....k you". I thought, did they really mean "Keep on Trucking?" I laughed to myself - I wished I had painted it on there instead of them. Oh yes! I waited until someone said something before I took it off. "But brother I didn't put in on there. I said." "WE KNOW THAT - just get it OFF."
God I wish you could have seen my car. I have a picture of her somewhere. "Road Warrior part II" I would drive down the FDR Radio on, with Elton John on playing "Rocket Man". It was like parting the Red Sea. A 1/2 mile ahead of me, people start moving into the other lanes. They knew someone was coming who had NOTHING TO LOSE.
As Bob Dylan said, "When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose."
Two months before my sentence was up. "I was serving a 1 to 4 for impersonating a minister" I was walking to the factory one day, my car was parked next to the park. As I passed I notice that someone had taken a ball peen hammer to my wind shield, right where the driver looks out! As I looked down the street, I saw ALL the cars, new and old. ALL of them had their wind shields smashed. Then I looked up the hill - all smashed. I counted 53 cars with smashed windshields that morning. Someone had some fun the night before!
Well that was the death blow for my baby. They wanted 85 bucks for a new windshield. There was no way I could put another dollar into that car. So I drove it up to Rhode Island (180 miles away) one Saturday, with no wind shield, it was 25 degrees, heater blasting, hoping the cops didn't pull me over. I parked it at my soon to be in-laws house and parted it out... sold the transmission rear end to a friend, keep the engine and tires... sold the gas tank to Roy Baty, he welded it into his van, because of the gas crisis, now he could buy 35 gallons of gas at a time. In the end she looked just liked one of those cars at the bottom of the Brooklyn Bridge. R.I.P. sweetheart. My first real love!
Next up... Love and sex in the "Big House"
 
Part 12
They say love is what makes the world go around ..And at Bethel, us "new boys" would say ... "If God created anything better then SEX he kept it for himself!"
How would we know? Most of us never had it. Didn't make any difference, We talked about it, fantasized about it, dreamt about it. I'm sure because we couldn't have it. That is why we gloried it so much. Hey! we were 20 year old virgins! and some of us were in our 30s! We had some raging hormones going on.
Most of the guys who left Bethel, got married with in a week after leaving the big house! I was different, I waited 2 weeks! I had will power. LOL
Before we talk about sex at Bethel, It would be good to talk about the history of sex in the organization, and they would say that started with Adam & Eve The real organization is less then 150 years old - In reality its an 1800s religion with an 1800s morals mentality. The Victorian period.
Any way back in the garden of Eden is were the real problem got started in the organization's mind anyway. The first real question ever posed had nothing to do with universal sovereinty as the church would have you believe, it was about Ever LASTING LIFE with God, or really GOOD SEX with a perfect wife for a few years "Aaaaaa GOD I think I will take the sex please!!!!" Remember it said the man was NOT deceived! He KNEW what he was doing - in his mind the choice was clear - everlasting life with God, or a few wonderful years of bliss, with the women of his dreams, the love of his life! .What a hero he was!!!!! ..He was the first man to die for LOVE and really GOOD SEX I say good sex because, who would give up everlasting life for an eternity of bad sex? God didn't create no fool. What He did create, was a perfect man and a perfect women with a perfectly NORMAL and healthy sex drive. P.S. I hate to break it to you, the whole Garden of Eden thing is pure urban myth ..
Churches think that Adam should have chosen God over his wife, and the Jehovah's Witness are no different. Religions are about control, and since most religions are run by self righteous men with control and sexual issues. Men who want to supress women and sex for control and power. Churches that say "the head of the women is the man". God NEVER wrote that. MAN wrote that! .Men have been using it against women for thousands of years to gain power over them.
As a Jehovah Witness, sex is strictly FORBIDDEN before marriage. There is no sex before marriage and sadly sometimes very little after, and since usually the only person you ever have sex with is the first person you had sex with. There is plenty of sexual incompatibility going on too, That is why more people are kicked out of the JWs every year for sexual reasons then anything else. 1 Sex out of wedlock. 2 Sex with someone besides your marriage mate. 3 Sex with your own kids or other people's kids.
So that brings us to our Bethelities. Most of people that are called to Bethel, are single young men who are at their sexual peak. They signed a 4 year contract to stay (no matter what). So you can see we are going to have some very interesting things going on there.
Well were to start? We already talked about the gays and the NPGs, plenty of those. The rest of the guys there, fall into different groups. You had the guys who had girl friends before they came (they asked them to wait). The odds of them making their time, were almost 0% I knew of 1 guy that did that in 4 years that way. Guys that got girl friends in the New York area while they were there and guys that got girl friends back home on vacations Then of coarse there were some that just got a hooker on 8th ave. Next we'll talk about them all.
Part 13
Most of us went back to Bethel, thinking we wanted to make it our life long career - what better place to be right before 1975? That dream ended for the vast majority after just few months there, when they found out that something was very wrong. Otherwise why would anyone want to leave a spiritual paradise? With only 2-5% staying after there 4 year commitment, and a very big percentage leaving before there time was even up. The average stay there in 1974 was only about 5 months. It was not a happy place - they were leaving in droves.
Getting a girl friend and having sex, was looking better all the time. Hey! The GB were doing it, all the Bethel "heavies" were doing it - we wanted it too. Just why do you think Knorr got married? .Did he get married for companionship? NO! There are over 1,500 "brothers" back there he could have that with them. He could do things with them, sit around and talk about the Bible, or go to a movie. There were plenty of "brown noses" for that. Did he get married to have children - NO! It is forbidden to have children at Bethel. Did he get married to have one person to be with, forever? No! He was going to Heaven, she wasn't. So why did he get married? It sure looks like good old S.E.X to me. Hey, even Germans like sex, too.
So he and his buddies were able to enjoy that privilege. I say privilege, because not everyone was permitted to have it. Remember the rule HE made up? To stay at Bethel and get married, you needed a total of 14 years of full time service. So you were forbidden to get married for any reason for 4 years, NO matter what, add another 10 years if you wanted to stay .I didn't say FORBIDDEN did I? Oppppppppsss I guess I did. But the BIBLE says that only those that have "fallen away from the faith, would be FORBIDDING others to marry!" 1 Timothy 4:1-3 so that can't be right .Opppppppppss I forgot the old double standard rule kicks in again, at this time! Catch 22
They would say, "But you signed an agreement!" Hey! your 19 years old, you and you should have known what you were signing, right? and some would say "Well you could always leave before your time." Yes, If you didn't mind the reproach and the shame and the punishment. You were not permitted to pioneer for 6 months, if you left early. Catch 22.
So just why am I so upset about all of this? For one reason it caused plenty of hardship and heart ache plus all the unhappy marriages and all the unnecessary trips some poor souls had to make to the hookers on 8th ave and even DEATH to some as I will tell you about in my last chapter. Come on guys... Wouldn't you think a LOVING organization would have people's best interest at heart? As in "OH Brother we are sorry to hear you are having a hard time here at Bethel, and so you would like to leave? GO, my friend and be in peace, and may God be with you, and thank you for the time, you were able to spend here with us and of course you can pioneer if you like." Sounds like something Jesus would say.
Opppppssss Did I say loving organization? Let me think, Yes! I think it says somewhere in the Bible "By their LOVE you would be able to recognize them," boy isn't that a "truth"? But its not "The Truth".
All the double standards, unwritten laws, and bull s**t - it was just too much for most of us. I say most of us because, there are some there that LOVE that kind of bull shit and fit right in. In "Catch 22" Yossairan said "Let the Bastards thrive!!!"
So most of us, we just wanted to find a little love, and leave after our "tour of duty" was up. As the "brother" said, "just keep your mouth shut and do your job" then get the hell out!
So back to girl friends and Bethelites .As I mention, there was only one guy I knew, who had a girl friend before he went to Bethel and "made his time" there, that was Roy Baty. Part of the reason for that, was she was only 15 years old when he went there, in 1970. So she was waiting for him and he was waiting for her.
That was tough for guys like Roy with girl friends back home, because you only got 2 weeks vacation a year, (you got no vacation your first year) so you got 6 weeks in 4 years. Many guys like myself, only got 4 weeks in 4 years, the reason being, Instead of taking our last two weeks vacation, we would just shorten our 4 year stay. So I came on March 21, 1970 - now, I could leave on March 7, 1974. The thought being, that any day NOT at Bethel WAS a vacation!
So that leaves us with our next group. Guys that got girl friends while they were at Bethel. With so many Bethelites in the New York City area! By the time you got there, anything decent was already "snapped up" with many halls having 10-20 Bethelites in them, the competition was tough! With 60-70% of the halls being Black and Latino and 80% of the Bethelites were white, the saying was "the longer your there, the whiter they look." So it was a 14 year old white girl, or a good looking black sister. If you had a car the selection got a little better with up state New York, Jersey or even New England. But for the vast majority it was just good old N.Y.C.
We saw it all too, every possible combination. The 19 year old white guy from Iowa, getting married to the 36 year old, 250 lb. black sister with 2 teenagers 13 & 16, his step daughter was just 3 years younger then him! There were guys who got "caught in closets" with Bethel house keepers - which was unusual because most of the sisters that were called to Bethel were beat with an ugly stick. We joked about it and said that Knorr, once a month, would get all the applications of sisters, who wanted to come to Bethel, he would get all the Bethelites in the upper dinning room and have a slide show. He would show a slide of some pioneer "FOX" from California and ask? How many of you guys want this sister to come to Bethel? The place would go crazy with noise. He would throw the application away .Next slide was of some "Dog". "How many want this sister?" You could here a pin drop He would say, call her in now. I tell you that man was a genius - he knew, what we were all about.
There was a guy in the service dept. who ran off with DO wife. There were married sisters who left there husbands for some single guys. You know all the stuff you would see in any Kingdom Hall.
Bethel tours were nice. But most of time they were very sad. You would see these great looking sisters go through on tour. They would give you "the eye". You would give them "the eye" Then they would get on the bus and leave. No way to meet them. Sometimes you would see them later that day in the Bethel home, hanging around with some "nerd" from their home town. They might have asked the nerd "Don't you know any other Bethelites?' Sure but they were Nerds too.
Sometimes it worked out great - I saw the love of my life. The lady I would marry, 2 weeks after I left Bethel, standing in front of the "ink room" in the summer of 1972 on a Bethel tour!
Part 14
My strange Bethel courtship started with me trying to meet Mike Stillman's sister, even though he worked in the ink room next to my elevator, we were not good friends. He was just a little too "country" for me and on the righteous side, too. They say "there is nothing more dangerous in combat then a new guy with a map!" and there was nothing more dangerous at Bethel then a self righteous new boy.
Anyway one beautiful Saturday morning, in 1972, we were walking to the factory, Mike happened to be walking with me, and he happened to say "God I would give anything to get out of this city on a day like today." I said "Well, I have a car and no place to go. You have a place to go and NO car." He wasn't quite sure of me, but next thing I knew, It's him and me and 4 of his nerdy friends driving to Rhode Island.
Needless to say, it was a great weekend and Debbie who had just turned 19 was happy that her brother finally brought someone home with him, who wasn't a nerd like his other friends.
She lived there with her mother, Elaine and stepfather, Ben. They had just moved to Rhode Island from Louisana, (one of the reasons was, they wouldn't make Ben an elder) and to "help" the local brothers out. At the time R.I. had the worst ratio of JWs to normal people in the USA. He was a real winner. Looked and acted like "Gomer Pyle" only dumber. He would walk around and say things like "You're fat, I'm fat, we're all fat" or "I know one thing about Debbie - she is tired." He would say that about 30 times a day and pat everyone's head. I'm not sure what all that meant? Of course a year later, they had made this mental giant an elder I'll never forget the day he gets this phone call (I'm sitting in the room with him) from some sister, it his hall, who was crying her eyes out (because her husband had just beat the shit out of her) and he said to her "Well you must have done something REALLY wrong for him to get so mad. Just have another beer and forget the WHOLE THING!" I just sat there, I couldn't believe it. This guy couldn't pour sand out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. Leading the flock of God.
Her mother Elaine, another winner. Major hypochondriac. I think she was allergic to air. Naturally she was the one who brought the JW teachings into the family. Debbie who loved her real father, would get her face slapped anytime she brought his name up. He left her mother back in the 50's and married another women. He was of course DFed.
After we got married in 1974, we got some "New Light - the light got brighter" and the Society said, you could NOW have limited contact with disfellowshipped ones.
By the way the term "the light gets brighter" really means we were wrong about something so we are changing our option about it for the whole religion thing to work. It HAS to be impossible for the Society or any church to be wrong, and the reason for that is, IF it is wrong about ONE thing, it COULD be wrong about something else, RIGHT? So where would you draw the line? So the "light gets brighter" stuff works really well. Oh by the way, I do the same thing now. If I hurt someone or if I'm wrong about something, I NEVER say "I'M SORRY." I say "OOOPPPss light got brighter!" but people think I'm strange when I say that. I wonder why?
Anyway we decided to drive to California to see her real Dad. She hadn't seen him in about 10 years. Both her and her brother wrote him a letter when they were kids, saying they had NO desire to see him ever again, that was their mother's idea, sweet women that she is. So Debbie was so excited to see her Dad who she loved so much, and what a sweet person he was. I say WAS, because a few years later after "the LIGHT got brighter once again" the Society said we are going back to the "old way" (or old light} of dealing with DFed ones - by shunning them. So one day in the 1980's Bob call us and wanted to come up for a visit, to see us and his grandkids (my children). I said "Come on up Bob, we would love to see you!" Debbie grabbed the phone out of my hand and told him "he wasn't welcome NOW and that he couldn't come anymore for visits." A few years later one morning, we got the phone call - he BLEW his brains out with a 38 special. Ah the love.
That "new light" is funny stuff - sometimes its bright then DARK then bright again, but one thing it NEVER is wrong... RIGHT?
So now you know about my two wonderful future in-laws. Next up, the year and a half hell, dealing with them, up to our wedding.
The rest of the story is mostly odds and ends or outside of Bethel and is continued from these links:
 Part 15
 Part 16
 Part 17
 Part 18
Part 19
Part 20 (final)
 +2 / -0
palmtree67
palmtree67 5 years ago

I enjoyed reading this.
Thank you!


Palm
 
3Mozzies
3Mozzies 5 years ago

[Marking for later]
Thanks Randy

3Mozzies
 
GrandmaJones
GrandmaJones 5 years ago

Good stories. Very,very interesting!
 +0 / -1
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 5 years ago

Thanx for posting this DP. Enjoyed reading it very much.
I spoke with Keith a few times by phone several years ago - he was aquainted with my best friend, the one who went to Bethel and jumped to his death in 1973 from one of the society's buildings after being pressured to 'stay and meet his committment to Jehovah'. I would love to get back in touch with Keith, but have lost his number, and I have not seen him here [or don't recognise his current screen-name] on JWN. Please PM me if you have it [and feel free to share it].
Peace
Jeff
 
Lozhasleft
Lozhasleft 5 years ago

Fascinating stuff. Thank you.
Loz x
 
designs
designs 5 years ago

Great stories, knew some of the names.
 
Listener
Listener 5 years ago

Thanks, what an interesting story. Just imagine if all those young men had spent their four years at university, certainly it couldn't have been any tougher.
 
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

Funny stories.

I talked to him and cleaned up the grammer a little and put it up on my site, and here it is!
I'd hate to see who bad it was before! It still has heaps of errors, but considering it's such a long article to proofread...
 
Joliette
Joliette 5 years ago

OMG LOL @ the governing body video.
Dan Sydlik is a real hoot! John Barr comes across as the most normal one, but still brainwashed.
All the rest of them look old and tired.
Cult...cult...cult...cult.
 
Eiben Scrood
Eiben Scrood 5 years ago

I can't imagine a worse hellhole on earth. Why anyone would voluntarily submit to this was beyond me even when I was in it.
 +1 / -0
Soldier77
Soldier77 5 years ago

What's funny is that every brother I know that has gone to bethel and finished their tour of duty said it's not what its all cracked up to be. Some of them outright have said it's the worse place on earth.
Great story here.
 +2 / -0
anewme
anewme 5 years ago

What a writer! I havent laughed like this for a long while. Truly funny humor and perspective!
Two thumbs up for Keith!
What is he up to these days Dogpatch?

Anewme
 
badcompany
badcompany 5 years ago

Thanks, Randy!
I fully intended to go to Bethel (life's dream). Went there for the tour in '74. I could sense some of the things you talk about even though the tour guides tried to make it look all shiny and bright. I remember the faces on the people strapped to some of the machines you mention. I could tell I would hate it (those poor bastards were trapped as far as I could tell). Being a small town boy I was very enamored with NYC itself. I quickly learned that Watchtower wages (what was it....$13/mo then?) wouldn't allow for much night life. I'm sure glad I went to kick the tires first. It's really close to being shanghaied if you just sign up without going to see the reality first.
 +2 / -0
Botzwana
Botzwana 5 years ago

I did a two week stint in Bethel to try it out before I signed up for full time. GLAD I did! I came home not wanting to ever do that again.
 +2 / -0
factfinder
factfinder 5 years ago

Thank you Randy for posting this. It certainly presents a surprising ( tho' I should not be surprised) view of what really goes on behind the scenes at bethel. How Keith could stand it and remain there under those circumstances I don't know. I would have left right away. I have seen much of the politics, favoritism, fighting, and lying among elders and the CO in several congs. I can see it happening at bethel although I am sad that it does at the house of god. What a revealing account. I decided in 1978 after attending the Bethel meeting at the victorious faith international convention that serving at bethel was not for me. I certainly made the right decision.
But I do know a brother who has been at Bethel for 34 years and his wife has been there for 20- they seem to be satisfied serving there so it does work out well for some witnesses.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

OK I'll try and answer y'all.
to Brokenpromises: OMG it took me way longer just to make it readible, he is like the guy in Apocalypse Now that was the colonels' (Marlon Brando) speaker, you know the rambling hippie? Forget his name? Dennis Hopper? Just go read the final episodes on this series of articles as linked from the very bottom of this article, and you will see the originals. I almost regretted reformatting it, and about 11 PM at night I just said, "What the hell, catch the big stuff and let the rest go." It's hard for me because although I hated them both, I always got As in math and spelling. I had to be a perfectionist. Beat the two cute broads in 6th grade who wanted to take me down in a school final spelling match. I beat their cute butts good. (One was a JW, her name was Gina with some Italian last name; her dad was a bigwig JW in Orange County. Our school was Cerro Villa in Orange, Ca.) Even managed to get a badge to show that I was the winner in a contest to see how midjunior high school kids would do on a SAT. Beat the whole school, but not after contemplating suicide that that was absolutely the hardest test in the world, and how can they expect people to even get an "80" on it?
Now I had no idea what an SAT test was. That was something known to higher grades, not me. So I didn't realize it was designed to squeeze you down into an insignificant nothing; but it was good for really determining the intelligence (according to your generation). But the ones who did really well on the test were not the most intelligent in the way we think of, but they were clever and understood the animal nature within all us, and were able to read the personality and the mind of the one who WROTE the test, thereby giving you a big advantage because you knew then what answers THEY wanted; not necessarily objective truth. Sort of like cold reading gets you the A. I was that way at Bethel, I could usually tell who wrote certain articles, and "new rules" in the Kingdom Ministry. Shortcuts.

But it's worth it; keeps you on his story without being too distracted thinking you were on acid or something. :smile:)
more in a minute
 +2 / -0
SlipnSlide
SlipnSlide 5 years ago

I really enjoyed reading your experience at Bethel. I guess I would probably be in the minority when I say that I never had any desire to visit Bethel or let alone serve there. I always had a problem with congregations planning trip tours and being charged for the trip. I have contributed quite a bit of money to the Borg and I was not going to PAY extra for the privilege.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

Anewme: I have no idea where he is.
Badcompany: It was really fully as bad as he said, up until Knorr died and they instituted the one-year plan instead of 4 years, and allowed more sisters in. One brother who was assigned to the pressroom was also assigned to my congregation, and he almost never went to meetings for like 3 years. :smile:)
New York was much more dangerous back then. I only got robbed once going through the projects. They also would throw bottles at us at night. Back then all the hoodlums were like 13 years old because they couldn't prosecute them. They pulled a gun on me. I gave them the $10 in my wallet and my watch, didn't get hurt. In fact, one young member of the group ran back and said he was sorry, he went to church, too! LOL that took the cake.
I caught a yound Puerto Rican kid breaking in the building 4 on the 1st floor window one night (It was at the far corner of the factory, next to the Manhattan Bridge, where it was dark and kinda scary to look anyways. We were allowed no weapons, so I had to fly down the stairs (one of our contests at Bethel factory was to see how few times you touch the ground flying down the stairs). It worked and he fleed out an emergency door.
My congregation territory had once been all Jewish - had Mezuzah's on all the doors or sillls still. Exccept it was now 95% Black and 5% Puerto Rican.
It was too expensive because it was all homes and a few apartments, so many people vacated and literally half the property was torn up or burned down. Looked like a war zone.
To have fun, the young hoods used to tie piano wire across the door openings, cut holes in the floor and carefully put the carpets precariously in place, and tie gasoline bombs from the ceiling of the abandoned houses. Then they would light them on fire and call the fire departtment from a phone booth to report it. Reall cool kids.
The two crazes (like our freeway shootings in Calif.) that were relatively short-lived were taking a young girl up to the top floor of the projects, raping her by a gang and then throwing her over the edge to die. Another was pushing people in front of the subway trains.
East New York (part of Brooklyn) at the end of the #2 New Lots train put you in my territory. It had the highest murder rate in New York City. Fun.
When I moved to Cali they cleaned up most of Manhattan (Guiliani?) and the crime went down in Brooklyn, but it followed me here where I am 5 miles from Compton! (One of my roommates is a Public Defender for homicide cases in the Compton area - what stories you can't imagine.)
Dogpatch
 +1 / -0
Broken Promises
Broken Promises 5 years ago

Just in response to Randy: I totally understand what you're saying. I'm a perfectionist too in regards to these things, so that's probably why I picked up the extra grammatical mistakes.
And I get what you're saying about the tests. I quickly learnt in high school that it wasn't original thought that got you the marks, but giving the teachers the answers they were looking for. Didn't matter if you thought they were correct or not. Just tell them what they wanted to hear. Good training for being a witness, I guess!
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
new boy
My Bethel Experience Part 13 "Love and Sex" at Bethel
by new boy 2 months ago
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 2 months ago
JT
Why My Wife and I Have No Kids
by JT 14 years ago
new boy
Chapter 1 My Bethel Experience First Posted 9 Years Ago A Walk Down Memory Lane
by new boy 2 months ago
new boy
My Bethel Experience part 15 Health, Dismemberment, Death (natural and unnatural) murder.
by new boy 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/203864/how-awful-this-place-can-life-bethel-keith-casarona





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ "How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
/  





 

"How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
by Dogpatch 5 years ago 55 Replies latest 2 months ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

The summers were miserable after a 2-week Spring. The factory where all the huge presses were was NOT air conditioned, we did have fans. It would be 100 degrees outside and 110 in the pressroom, you wore a headband to keep the sweat out of your eyes at times. You woke up sweating in your bed in the summer.
Heat in the rooms was through steam pipes, which were turned OFF like 9PM or earlier, and didn't turn on until 5 or 6 AM. It was cold. I ended up with a penthouse corner room of the 107 Columbia Heights building, with an outstanding view of Manhattan from the Statue of Liberty way down the East River. The Twin Towers and Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges were my view. They were just finishing up the Towers when I got there. The following pictures were taken by getting on the roof directly above my room. My little Minolta, but took damn good pictures (slides).


about 1977




Entertaining the kids from my congregation in my Bethel room.




One view from my room




Pressroom boys: me, Tom Cabeen, Hoe operator, and Jim Rizzo.




When the Margaret Hotel was arsoned the night before it was to open because it was under code. All wood. The fire trucks could not put out the smoke for a WEEK because they couldn't get inside. The fire truck got embedded in the street under 3 feet of ice. Wind chill was 30 below zero. This building was about 50 feet from my window! The society later bought it and rebuilt it.




Out my right window: scroll to right to see Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges, Twin Towers, Empire State Building, etc.




View from my room at sunset.




The Wood-Hoe was purchased by Nathan Knorr (3rd Watchtower President) at the peak of the 1975 fever. It was a prototype costing $1.6 million with three huge letterpress cylinders about 54" in diameter and 72" wide. It was designed to print 100,000 "Truth" books a day and was directly connected to a bindery upstairs. Chief Engineer (and formerly my roommate) Milan Miller was in charge of getting it going, but was away most of the time setting up presses in other countries. Eventually, I got the job.
The problem with the Wood-Hoe was that the cylinders were made up of magnetic, concentric rings that expanded and contracted so much during the course of the day (we had no air conditioning) that the printing looked like it was done with rubber stamps. Just webbing up the press took a case of books in paper, it was 70" wide and moved very fast. The press created such sway in the building when we ran it, the lathes in the machine shop on the floor below us could not keep register. The press was eventually sold to a low bidder in another country. After 1975, they had decided to print pretty books instead, as they could make much more money and woo in more people at the door. This was a monster press; two stories tall and 100 feet long. My baby! LOL



 
Farkel
Farkel 5 years ago

Randy,
:I had to be a perfectionist. Beat the two cute broads in 6th grade who wanted to take me down in a school final spelling match. I beat their cute butts good.
Wow.
Farkel
 
Scott77
Scott77 5 years ago

marked for later reading
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 5 years ago

LOL @ 6:11 in the GB video re the short time left to Armageddon way back when.
 
factfinder
factfinder 5 years ago

I really like the photo of the "squibb" bldgs (25/30) Randy. This is what the 25 bldg looked like during my first visit to bethel in 1977! (broken windows probably fixed!) I liked the terrace wall on the roof with the sign "The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom" and the tower on top with the painted watchtower on all 4 sides and the smaller buildings on the right!!! In 1979 they tore down the smaller buildings to make room for the 11 story office bldge and they took down the tower (for safety reasons) when rennovating the 25 bldg for offices. They removed the terrace walls to install the solarium as an inexpensive way to raise the ceiling of the twelth floor. They never put the tower back up. I never felt the building looked quite right-but the society thought it was a great looking office building! I liked the way it looked before the rennovation and construction!!! It just seemed unusual and special to me-I even had dreams about it!
I remember my friend who worked in the pressroom office telling me about the wood-hoe press and how the magnetic plates never worked quite right. It was supposed to be able to print 100,000 pocket-sized books per day! Too bad it did'nt work.
Did you realize when you were working there that the Adams Street printery was at that time the 3rd largest printery in the world?!!! ( Only the GPO and one of RR Donnelley's plants were larger!)
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

Factfinder: I finally did get the Wood-Hoe running, and Max Larson said print 100,000 books. They were "Truth" books. Because of the plate variations due to temperature and the concentric rings, each page looked different, with light and thick type. Like a rubber stamp.So the press ran fine, it's just the print that looked like crap.

So Larson gave them all away to members of the Bethel family who wanted them. I saved one that got stuck in the cutter upstairs in the shape of a tombstone!! hahahahaha
Dogz
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

As for the size of the printery, we knew it was near tops. In the mid-70s we printed enough books EVERY DAY to make a stack twice as tall as the Empire State building. EVERY DAY. That didn't include the mags, and now the WT has the largest circulation of any rag in the world. We unloaded multiple railroad cars of rolls of paper 3 feet tall every day. One book or mag press (except for stuff on cigarette (er, ah, Bible) paper like we ran on 3/6 ran through a roll in about 35 minutes, think 8 hours a day! And we had 40+ of them in Brooklyn alone. Imagine sucking up 420 huge rolls of paper a day if 3/4 of the presses were running. Plus there was the old Hoe presses that ate up a lot. (Not Wood-Hoe).



One of the 40 MAN presses, which cost $250,000 each when I got there, and went yp to $440,000 for the last few. This is a Bible press, because the paper is so white. Lots of titanium dioxide in the paper, very little paper really. :smile:) That's why it is used for cigarette paper - it burns slow becuae it is mostly chemicals.




Tom Cabeen (left) was assistant floor overseer in the rotary pressroom under Richard Wheelock. "Wheels" was on the Factory Committee most of the time I was there, so he was always upstairs while we ran the 6th floor. I was floor overseer of the building #3 sixth floor (Bibles, AID book, Make Sure, Concordance), Jim Petrie (right) was overseer of the building #1 floor, as well as Fred Fredean in building #2. Peach (Jim) was later in charge of offset printing and I was sentenced to the Wood-Hoe in the end, which had caused several mechanics to lose the desire to serve at Bethel and Milan Miller to exit gracefully. :smile:)




Gloria and Tom Cabeen.
As all the trouble unravelled in 1979, Tom would share in private what was going on in the Service Depts. and Governing Body over the Franz Incident. He and his wife Gloria were privy to information from several key departments. This, along with material I gleaned from the Bethel Elders' meetings, as well as sitting at the Bethel table every morning and listening to the Governing Body, made a clear picture of what was happening.




Tom Snaps me with a huge rubber band as we take out our anxieties. ("Will we get caught talking about these things?") Many who were at Bethel during that time knew very little about the Governing Body and Service Dept. covert operations. Even Bethel Elders, like "Fish" (stooping over in the background) were clueless about our discussions. Darold Block (right, smiling), on the other hand, took it all in stride. We kept the other elders in suspense. They knew we were up to no good, but they never figured it out.




Mark Cent gets "opened up" in one of the lighter moments of hazing on our floor. From left to right: James Rizzo (foreground), Ron Walker, Thomas Hagen, ____, and Mark Cent (who later returned my "What Happened At the World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses In The Spring of 1980?" essay in very tiny bits in an envelope. It was the first printed story of what happened by an insider (printed in 1981). Crisis of Conscience was next, the most influential work of all concerning the Watchtower.




A more serious moment of hazing, the guys from upstairs dare to use our walkway!

pics from http://www.randallwatters.com/Bethel/scrapbook.htm

D
 +1 / -0
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

This didn't come out fully in an earlier picture as it was to large for the page, so I shrunk it so you could see my view at night.



 +1 / -0
factfinder
factfinder 5 years ago

Thank you Randy! I remember seeing that big wood-hoe press on the factory tours but it was not running. Those TRUTH books you made were souveniers!
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 5 years ago

Marked for later
 
The_Present_Truth
The_Present_Truth 5 years ago

Marking for later. I'm so glad I passed on the invitation to stay on at Bethel when I worked out there. My older brothers weren't so lucky. One put 4 years in I guess and the othe put 6 years in. What a waste of time.
 
factfinder
factfinder 5 years ago

Randy- I came across these names of some brothers I met on Bethel tours in the 90's (?)-
Trever Jorgenson and Randal Johnston.
Did you know them? I don't know how long they were there or if they still are. Thanks!
 
ziddina
ziddina 5 years ago

Ho - LEEE Frikkin' HANNAH....
I had heard rumors about life at Bethel while I was still 'in' - during the years leading up to their 1975 hysteria - but according to your friend's commentary, it was MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than the 'rumors'!!!!!!
 
safireblu64
safireblu64 5 years ago

My goodness what an entertaining read!!! I laughed out loud so many times!! I am so glad that this was put up here, because it just goes to show what really goes on behind closed doors. And to think that at one time when I was younger and eager to do what was 'right' and expected, that I wanted to go to bethel and be an artist for the publications! YIKES!!! I hope that place is the first to fall in Armegeddon!
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 5 years ago

I just read every single installment...
If ever there was one set of writings that shows the evil nature of this religion, it is these.
Ray Franz exposed the GB,
but this shows the pure rotten stinking maggot ridden orgnization for what it is.
oz
 +1 / -0
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 5 years ago

I don't have contact with Keith anymore, anewone, his last post here was a few years ago I think.
Randy
 
Ding
Ding 5 years ago

The more stories I hear about Bethel, the more I think, "Imagine an entire planet run by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society."
Paradise earth???
 +1 / -0
Izzy
Izzy 5 years ago

Sure puts things into perspective.
 +1 / -0
factfinder
factfinder 5 years ago

We get to see what is really behind the WT facade and it is very dissapointing.
 +2 / -0
zombie dub
zombie dub 5 years ago

good read - what is 'hazing'?
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
remember the video of all the nice dudes who were on the governing body in the 70s?
(here's a refresher).. well this is what their lives were really like - the same as when i was there.
by the time it got to the end, all was left was chicken backs.



Related Topics
new boy
My Bethel Experience Part 13 "Love and Sex" at Bethel
by new boy 2 months ago
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 2 months ago
JT
Why My Wife and I Have No Kids
by JT 14 years ago
new boy
Chapter 1 My Bethel Experience First Posted 9 Years Ago A Walk Down Memory Lane
by new boy 2 months ago
new boy
My Bethel Experience part 15 Health, Dismemberment, Death (natural and unnatural) murder.
by new boy 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/203864/how-awful-this-place-can-life-bethel-keith-casarona?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ "How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
/  





 

"How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona
by Dogpatch 5 years ago 55 Replies latest 2 months ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
Alfred
Alfred 4 years ago



 
panhandlegirl
panhandlegirl 4 years ago

OMG what a story! I have two nephews that went to Bethel. Because I have been df'd for years, I have not heard any of their stories. I believe they were probably "company men" don't know. These stories should be made into a book. What a Hell hole; and to think they (the DO/CO) wanted me to go there! I would not have survived.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 4 years ago

I vote for a book. The story telling is so good. He has a real knack for it.
I yearned to work at Bethel when I grew up. Of course, I was a woman and would not me a maid or laundress even for Jehovah. I planned my courses to best fit what I thought would be useful. Every assembly I attended the Bethel lecture--I was about six years from qualifying but I was career oriented. My hope was to be a secretary for a big wig. I even taught myself to type in fifth grade.
My mother said that my grandparents had Bethelites over every Sunday and that huge packs of food were given to them to take back. This was during the Great Depression. She was sketchy about why hospitality was such a mission in New Jersey.
The food stories bother me the most. My fantasies were so different from reality. My father remarked to her that they always thanked Jehovah for blessing the Kingdom Farm after a good year. The Kingdom Farm was never mentioned in much leaner years.
These stories are so sad. I wonder if monasteries were the same way. Thomas Merton, the famous Catholic writer and hermit, joined a very strict order. In the 1940s and 1950s, the local Catholic hospital had to take care of monks suffering severe illnesses from simple malnutrition. Jesus provided actual food. He also said that man does not live my bread alone. (indicating man needed bread). This is a very sick strain of Christianity. I prefer my Friar Tucks.
How could Jesus have travelled over Galilee on a meagre diet? The man made water into wine. Feeding of the multitudes. What do they do with their money?
 +1 / -0
designs
designs 4 years ago

My brother was there from 1969-1973, company man through and through, still is.
 
transhuman68
transhuman68 3 years ago

Read this at Freeminds- and I LOL'ed.
 
david_10
david_10 3 years ago

This is fascinating! A page-turner, for real.
David
 
cobaltcupcake
cobaltcupcake 3 years ago

My ex-husband was a Bethelite from 1974-76. He worked on the National sewers on the night shift. His stories are very similar to Keith Casarona's.
 
John_Mann
John_Mann 3 years ago

I always thought life in Bethel could be like this:



 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 3 years ago

The story talks about the 129 building (129 Columbia Heights). This went CoOp after the society sold the building. Evidently part of the purchase of the Towers building.
In 2000 I purchased an apartment in this building. I ended up being part of the board and the treasurer. It was fun reading through all the documents from the society to the building. The society held the mortgage for several years. Every month the building would get a watchtower letter thanking the building for their payment. I remember reviewng the deed. It was signed by several heavies including Greenless.
 
Julia Orwell
Julia Orwell 3 years ago

Mad place. I hope the Brooklyn bethel is a lot different now.
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 years ago

marked
 
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 2 months ago

Keith would be great for you to get together with Brock Talon, he put a book out on his Bethel stay of the early eighties a year or two ago. I'm sure he could give you some tips on how to put one together. He's on the forum here uses same name. Anyhow thanks again as I sais earlier your stories open the door for me to walk away from this sad cult.
On edit : Sorry Keith I shouldn't of bumped this thread. Hopefully it will just stay down I've been enjoying your recent refresher on your other post and hope others get to read it there for the first time. Sorry about that everyone.
 +1 / -0
jhine
jhine 2 months ago
marked jan
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 months ago

This bit gave me a chuckle:

"...If you weren't Gay or and NPG at Bethel, you were homophobic..."
These days, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that if you're homophobic (anywhere), you are gay and/or NPG. :smirk:
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 months ago


"...more people are kicked out of the JWs every year for sexual reasons then anything else. 1 Sex out of wedlock. 2 Sex with someone besides your marriage mate. 3 Sex with your own kids or other people's kids."

Numbers 1 and 2, sure.
Number 3, though? They're more likely to keep you.
 
new boy
new boy 2 months ago
Yes my new repostings are cleaned from the ones I did 8 years ago plus I have added some new information, that wasn't there before.
 +1 / -0

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
remember the video of all the nice dudes who were on the governing body in the 70s?
(here's a refresher).. well this is what their lives were really like - the same as when i was there.
by the time it got to the end, all was left was chicken backs.



Related Topics
new boy
My Bethel Experience Part 13 "Love and Sex" at Bethel
by new boy 2 months ago
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 2 months ago
JT
Why My Wife and I Have No Kids
by JT 14 years ago
new boy
Chapter 1 My Bethel Experience First Posted 9 Years Ago A Walk Down Memory Lane
by new boy 2 months ago
new boy
My Bethel Experience part 15 Health, Dismemberment, Death (natural and unnatural) murder.
by new boy 2 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/203864/how-awful-this-place-can-life-bethel-keith-casarona?page=3&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ SDA Minister sacked for being more accepting of Gay couples in his church and video of his last sermon
/  





 

SDA Minister sacked for being more accepting of Gay couples in his church and video of his last sermon
by barry 3 years ago 1 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
5
10
20
barry
barry 3 years ago

I'm no longer a SDA but still have an interest on how they are progressing many are wonderful people in serving the lord.
I have been following Ryan Bell at Hollywood Adventist church and how he has connected with the community their also there may be lessons that witnesses can use to effect change in their situations
Ryan has been very innovative in connecting with the community he has introduced Ash wednesday into the church which is unusual for an Adventists church somthing Ive never experianced. He has had Muslim imams from the local mosque take a number of sermons at his church. These may have made the conference a little edgy. Ryan has been actively involved with social justice and other community issues.
The incidents which led to Ryans sacking came when he accepted Gay couples into fellowship. he also was one of the first churches to film ' Seventh Gay Adventists ' a movie about two adventist couples who are SDA and one lesbian couple. Ryan was sacked by the conference not the church.
So if anyone is interested just look at the video it may have some helpful idears in dealing with the WT problems. If th evideo is a bit long for some just look at the second half.

&feature=player_embedded
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

Thanks for contributing. As I can read faster than listening, videos are hard for me to watch unless they are very short.
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Balaamsass2
Sunday Washington Post: Gay Christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
by Balaamsass2 a year ago
truthwillsetyoufree
The hardship of being a gay Jehovahs witness.
by truthwillsetyoufree 2 years ago
Julia Orwell
Trying to overcome my homophobia.
by Julia Orwell 2 years ago
skeeter1
How many Muslim women martyrs do we need before Muslim leaders speak out
by skeeter1 3 years ago
fulltimestudent
What percentage of the population are gay?
by fulltimestudent 8 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/250151/sda-minister-sacked-being-more-accepting-gay-couples-his-church-video-his-last-sermon






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Seventh Gay Adventists, a movie you should see
/  





 

Seventh Gay Adventists, a movie you should see
by barry 3 years ago 7 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
5
10
20
barry
barry 3 years ago

A film about faith on the margins. Directors Daneen Akers and Stephen Eyer and screenings listed at www.sgamovie.com
'WOW. What a beautiful film! Thanks to those featured in the film for being so vulnerable and real -it took great courage to tell your stories the way you did, and we were humbled and deeply toughed by your witness. I can,t imagine anyone seeing this and not being profoundly moved by it. and thanks to La Sierra university church for being brave enough to host this event. It was as awsome spirit filled experience. Lorelei Cress.
Of course this film is being shown not only in churches but at Melbourne Queer Film Festival , Seattle lesbian and Gay film festival.
For such a film as this to be accepted by many SDA is something of a miracle and is about two gay couples and one lesbian couple and their relationship with the church. The SDA church is allmost as conservative as the witnesses.
This from Roy Gane professor SDA theological seminary Andrews university, 'Whatever ones position regarding homosexuals and the church may be this film is worth seeing because it candidly probes issues with real human faces and stories'



 
barry
barry 3 years ago


 
barry
barry 3 years ago




 
Wilfried
Wilfried 3 years ago

How I would like to watch it in french
 
barry
barry 3 years ago

Gday wilfried , I looked if that movie is in another lingo but to no avail.
The guy who first talks on both videos had been in therapy for 5 years trying to change to being straight but he fell in love with a man anyway.
Its not easy being gay and religious and I believe they need our support. The suicide rate for gay religious people is 8 times the general population
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 years ago

Amazing to see gay people that love being a SDA so much that they continue to go to hear the sermons, despite how the Church and members are against them being gay.
 
barry
barry 3 years ago

jw facts not all the SDA members are against them many support them I have found out the lesbian couple in the video are office bearers in the church now but are unsure of a new minister appointed to their church. The SDAs are pluralistic in their beliefs my grandmother was a very devout SDA but wouldn't go to church in the last 20 years of her life because of the liberal members v the conservative members v the progressive members. Thats why our family is now Anglican
Many in the church do think for themselves look at sgamovie.com see the sda members that gave their approval of the movie and the movie was shown in some sda churches.
Many sda go to a church school and then go onto an sda university and are not exposed to the wider community. Unlike the witnesses they do promote education.
I don't have the same connection with many of my former sda friends I used to have non sda friends visit their churches when I was a kid so I don't have that same connection. Also I can't stand Ellen White
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 years ago

My grandson is SDA, he has gone to SDA school only, he is graduating high school in June and plans go to SDA college to major in theology or divinity. I don't know that much about the church, but I do think it has been good for him. He attends SDA due to his other grandmother, neither of his parents attend. He seems very well adjusted, lots of friends, just a really great kid. His long term goal is to have his own non denominational church someday, which tells me he is not that committed to the religion. At least he will get an education out of it, I am y happy about that.
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Balaamsass
Washington Post article by Director of Jehovah's Witness PBS Documentary "Knocking". 3 years later.
by Balaamsass 4 years ago
betterdaze
When religion is the bully: Joel P. Engardio
by betterdaze 5 years ago
Balaamsass2
Sunday Washington Post: Gay Christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
by Balaamsass2 a year ago
truthwillsetyoufree
The hardship of being a gay Jehovahs witness.
by truthwillsetyoufree 2 years ago
whereami
Ugandan Gay Rights Activist Beaten to Death
by whereami 5 years ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/250575/seventh-gay-adventists-movie-you-should-see





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ ? for Barry. How do Seven Day Adventists compare to JW's
/  





 

? for Barry. How do Seven Day Adventists compare to JW's
by jwfacts 10 years ago 29 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
jwfacts
jwfacts 10 years ago

Hi Barry,
noticed you are online, so I wanted to grab you and find out how you perceive Seven Day Adventists compare to JWs:
1 - Equally cult like
2 - Not quite so bad
3 - The true religion
From some of your thread it appears you are an openminded SDA. I have noticed SDA's fellowshipping with other Protestant groups here in Australia. Do SDA's believe they are the only true religion or do they believe that acknowledging Christ is enough?
Thanks
Paul
 
Chimene
Chimene 10 years ago

Hey Paul, I'm not Barry, but just my 2 cents, my grandmother pretty much raised me and she was a die hard SDA. When I married my JW husband, she told me that the JW's were weird and she didn't believe in any of the things that they do. The only thing I found strange about the SDA's was how they literally stuck to the bible verse "remember the sabbath day and keep it holy" This meant every Saturday, no work, no play, no TV, nothing. All you could pretty much do was read the bible. And she did it, every Saturday.
You asked if it was cult like, I don't think so.They did have something called the voice of prophecy, but I never really asked too much about it.
Growing up, I loved going there. It was a lot of fun. Especially in the summer. They had vacation bible school. You learned about the bible, while getting to make arts and crafts and doing fun things. And don't let me forget the monthly potluck! All the food you can eat, LOL!
Anyhow, that's my take on it
 
insearchoftruth
insearchoftruth 10 years ago

Will be interesting to read the responses to this thread since a lot of the basis of the wts came from the SDAs, another faith I know all but nothing about.
Will pose a question here, any suggestions on a somewhat mainstream religion where it would be good to expose a inactive jw to a setting outside of a meeting, anything liturgical I think is out of the question!
 
Chimene
Chimene 10 years ago

Yes, I was actually surprised to find that some of the JW religion came from SDA's. REALLY surprised! But then, my grandmother told me that when she was a baby, her mother was a Bible Student, and that she was bounced on Rutherfords knee when she was little, (poor thing)
 
insearchoftruth
insearchoftruth 10 years ago

Good post! I am amazed how an organization that was started by a misled Presbyterian (through no fault of the Presbyterians), based on Millerites and then the SDAs could grow into the powerful and misdirected cult that they have.
Each and every post I read about the wts makes me even further question how anyone could not see through the smokescreen that they have set up, but they have had many years of practice setting up the screen, and each person is trained to make sure the screen looks the same!
 
Check_Your_Premises
Check_Your_Premises 10 years ago

and each person is trained to make sure the screen looks the same!
And never forget the extent that each person has so much invested in believing the lie. They need to believe this stuff. It is their protection from the big bad world. They need the fantasy that somebody has all the answers... because they have to many questions. They just don't realize that the one feeding them the answers is just as lost and blind as anybody else.
CYP
 
james_woods
james_woods 10 years ago

I have a pretty close friend who was raised in the SDA. He had to even go to their own parochial schools - the parents were hardliners. They eventually divorced with the father going to no religion and the mother going even more radical on Sabbath, etc. Richard (the son) quit as well about the time of Vietnam, played with Scientology after that, and now hates all conventional religion.
Anyway, his take on them is that they do not raise to the scary level of Scientology or JWdom, but they may be hiding a few little secrets of their own. For one thing, they almost approach the JWs in the attempt to control education in some ways. For example, it was frowned on to go to college if you wanted to be a scientist, politician, or whatever...but it was sort of OK to go into medicine! They do not completely shun people like Richard who just quit, but they do give him what for on family holidays...you will die if you don't come back. I think they really believe they are the only ones.
However, there is apparantly nothing like the rabid control from a central organization.
Nevertheless, the JWs have a lot of 7th day DNA. I cannot forget that they were before WT with the failed end time chronology and fostered the splinter groups that got Russell started. They have just evolved further than Brooklyn and are avoiding making themselves look stupid again, IMHO.
 
robhic
robhic 10 years ago

The only thing I found strange about the SDA's was how they literally stuck to the bible verse "remember the sabbath day and keep it holy" This meant every Saturday, no work, no play, no TV, nothing. All you could pretty much do was read the bible. And she did it, every Saturday.
I have a friend who is (now) a JW, but her family are Worldwide Church of God adherents. The WWCoG seems to also mirror a lot of Jewish religious ideas. (Envy...?) Probably why she got sucked into the JWs because it seemed to follow WWCoG in ways.
They keep the sabbath from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday, not working or anything as you mention above. They also keep some archaic-sounding feast / holydays like one called the "Feast of Tabernacles" which, I believe co-incides with the JW "Memorial."
They do a "Feast of Trumpets" too, but I don't know what or when it is. They do do a lot of travelling around the country to celebrate these so-called "feasts." Maybe Herbert W. Armstrong (started the WWCoG) owned motels or restaurants?
Robert
 
M.J.
M.J. 10 years ago

I have a question about SDAs regarding similarities with the JWs on THE AFTERLIFE, or lack thereof.
Russell & SDAs adopted the "soul sleep" concept from a common Adventist ancestry.
But while JWs teach complete non-existence at death, I wonder if the SDA teaching is literally soul sleep. That a person consists of an immaterial soul that is in union with the body to complete life...so when life of the body ceases, consciousness of the soul ceases as well, until the soul is rejoined with a body in resurrection. So in other words, the soul still exists, but is "sleeping".
I suppose the difference is not totally significant, as the JWs teach that a person's memory is what survives in Jehovah's care as opposed to a literal substance.
 
MissBehave
MissBehave 10 years ago

Their fundamental beliefs are listed here http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
Very interesting and many, many parallels with the Witnesses it seems.
 
MissBehave
MissBehave 10 years ago

M.J. this might be what you are looking for...seems it's the same.

26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

Who ya gonna call?How about the History channel? Read from this newspaper article: The problem with Millennialism Naples Daily News, FL  In 19th-century America the preacher William Miller was persuaded that the Second Coming of Christ would take place on the night of Oct. 22, 1844.  When Jesus failed to keep that date, newspapers of the time sneered that it was a "Great Disappointment."  Nevertheless, millennial expectations persisted, leading to Seventh-day Adventism and the Jehovah's Witnesses."
 There you have it folks backup confirmation that Jehovah's Witnesses are "mutated millerites" a spinoff of second adventist. There is nothing that made me gasp in horror of all WT/JW falsehoods more then this finding that it all came from the Millerite movement! Yes,the "great disappointment" of Oct 22 1844 has never falted... it lives on in the Seventh day Adventist (who admit it) AND the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny it Must see video clip http://www.dannyhaszard.com /cultvideos.htm
The Millerites : Armageddon (History Channel) 4 min clip
This is the highly credible HISTORY CHANNEL (Roger Mudd) not the "apostates" exposing Jehovah's Witnesses as a spin-off of the William Miller movement of 1844 Yes,the SDA and the JW's come from the same stock,my old time JW grandfather would often say that the SDA were the nearest to JW's in theology and it's no wonder.-Danny Haszard footnote:David Koresh and his cult were also a Millerite spin-off.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=seventh+day+adventist+charity&btnG=Google+Search SDA charites and relief missions
In contrast to JW's is SDA charites,back about 20 years ago i did a comparison and at the time they had over a thousand of those medical vans that would go into poor neighborhoods and do health screenings (they did me once).Can you imagine JW's doing such a thing?
 
Chimene
Chimene 10 years ago

They keep the sabbath from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday, not working or anything as you mention above.
Exactly, she would watch the news on Friday to see exactly what time the sun was going down.
They also don't eat pork. They stick pretty much to the first testament. I forgot one time. Sitting in the Waffle House with her, she said was I was eating looked good and asked what it was, I told her it was a sausage, egg and cheese sandwich, you could hear my name being shouted outside the place, LOL! I had commited a horrible sin! LOL
 
lookingfortruth2
lookingfortruth2 10 years ago

I actually like the SDA's. Particulalry because they seem more loving and normal compared to the JW's. I'm seriously thinking about switching. I wonder if the JW's would consider me an apostate if I do that. I must admit though, I am wary because I'm not sure if I'm suffering from a cult syndrome or something.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago

Interesting data from google search http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church Wikipedia on SDA Results 1 - 50 of about 209,000 for Seventh day adventist cult.  Results 1 - 50 of about 275,000 for Jehovah's Witnesses cult. Results 1 - 50 of about 428,000 for Mormons cult.
 
insearchoftruth
insearchoftruth 10 years ago

That is so funny Chimene, I think I would be in trouble with any organzation who would restrict the type of food I am able to eat. I don't understand how these so called religions pick and choose the scripture that they want their lemmings to fall in line with, and then why the lemmings don't read the scripture in context to see what it is really saying. If one proof texts the bible, or any book for that matter, one can make it say whatever they want too!
 
james_woods
james_woods 10 years ago

Exactly right on the context issue. I really have discussed the blood thing vs. the sabbath thing with my friend Richard. We agree here that both groups needed a "stand-out" issue unlike most everybody else to mark themselves as unique. Even if they have to stretch the heck out of the bible to come up with it. So how do they really know it has to be the modern-day weekly Saturday? The JEWS told you?
Well, at least their signature issue is probably not going to kill their kids. I still rate them only half-way on the whacked out cult scale.
 
Buster
Buster 10 years ago

One day, a few years ago, I was driving thru Idaho when I dialed in a radio preacher. For the part I listened to, it could have come straight from a Kingdom Hall: Content, tone, all fit exactly. I actually started to wonder if the JWs had started (re-started) radio work.
Turned out to be SDA.
 
Chimene
Chimene 10 years ago

If one proof texts the bible, or any book for that matter, one can make it say whatever they want too!
Amen insearchfortruth!
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
biblexaminer
PEACE AND SECURITY!
by biblexaminer 12 days ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
mtwtf
Misleading The Australian Royal Commission
by mtwtf 7 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/108737/barry-how-do-seven-day-adventists-compare-jws






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ ? for Barry. How do Seven Day Adventists compare to JW's
/  





 

? for Barry. How do Seven Day Adventists compare to JW's
by jwfacts 10 years ago 29 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
wednesday
wednesday 10 years ago

I had a doc who was a SDA. I just loved him. He did sort of act like an elder when I came in for my visits, but he seemed motivated by love and genuine afection and a desire to help and educate. He knew I was poor and had not had a nifty childhood and advantages others had. He even told me the JWS elders were not doing their job, ie trying to educate me. Well, I'm not as ignorant anymore, and my education is an ongoing process. I respect he SDA but do see they practice DF. However, it sems to me they try harder to help the people involved and take into account the circumstances involved. but b/c they pracitce df, I would never join them.
 
wednesday
wednesday 10 years ago

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God's Holy Word.
from their site, so they get "new light " too.
 
moggy lover
moggy lover 10 years ago

According to my understanding [having spoken only to a very few SDAs] there is a major difference of belief between the two groups, the WTS and the SDAs in regard to the "Afterlife" MissBehave has touched on this a little earlier, but may I be allowed to elaborate:
According to WT belief, as we all know, they teach that when a person dies he/she passes into a state of non-existence, his/her entire being is snuffed out, and that person no longer exists in any real sense of the term. Thus when the time for resurrection arrives, jhoover, esq, has to RECREATE the person using his memory of what he/she was in life. The person thus recreated actually has NO biological link to the previous existence, whatever link that is retained being rather tenous, at best. The important thing, however is that the WTS does not teach a resurrection, which requires a re-animation of exactly the very same person as the one who died.
That to my understanding is NOT what SDAs teach. This is how it was told to me: The person who is resurrected must be exactly the same as the person who died, with a direct concious link for the two. This is achieved by the following. When a person dies, whether good, or bad, he does NOT pass into non-being, rather there is something that does survive the person's death. It is not the soul of course, because like the WTS, the SDAs teach that the soul is the person. However the "Spirit" of the person survives. This is the real husk, the essence of being, the vital source that undergirds the person's sense of consciousness and being. The ego, if you will.
This "spirit" of the person continues to exist after death, but in a state of suspended animation either with the Lord if good, or in Hades if bad.Come the resurrection, the "spirit" of the godly person which contains the person's real being is clothed with a new, resurrection body, similar to Christ's. Thus a direct link is maintained with the two conditions of the person. He/she is aware of being exactly the same as the person who died
The ungodly are, however interesting. At the Final Jugement when all ungodly persons will be judged, they too will be resurrected. They will have their "spirits" reanimated and clothed with bodies. They will then be told the reason for their adverse divine sentence and THEN they will be annihilated, ie, go into non-existence. This is because there is no further need for a resurrection.
Whereas the WTS has already played God and publicly denied certain ones the resurrection, like most evangelical believers, the SDAs teach that every single person who has ever lived will be resurrected. The characterizations of Good and Bad however are detirmined by God, not the SDAs
Cheers
 
jwsons
jwsons 10 years ago

I believe Ken Raines has a nice page about this topic: Jehovah's Witnesses:An Adventist and Russellite Offshoot
 jwsons
 
barry
barry 10 years ago


 Gday JWfacts,
Just send me $20 and by return mail you will get my handprint on a piece of holy cloth . As a member of the only true religion on earth today The SDA church you will share in the graces bestowed by our heavenly father.
Now I will be more serious I just couldnt resist putting that in.
When talking about the SDA church I would prefer to divide the church into two broard groups. One being traditional Adventists who generally beleive in the more cultic doctrins would not mix as well well with christians of other denominations and have a more catholic theology. This group is the focas of most arguements against the SDA church.
The second broard group would be the evangicals who would beleive in the protestant doctrine of righteousness by faith be far less cultic and mix well with other denominations.
The SDA traditional group with a scale of one to ten would be 6 while the JWs would be an 8 . The evangelical group would rate much the same as other protestant christians.
It should be noted here that the JW religion is also a high control group and this is another aspect not present in other denominations.
I with many other SDAs beleive a christian is all those who trust in the merits of christ and is not dependent of denomination.
When Barnhhouse and Dr Martin studied Adventism in the 50s they warned about the many differences in SDA theology between differing groups in the church and claimed that the SDA church may be given cultic statis for this reason.
So are SDAs the only true religion ? It depends on who answers the question.
SDAs are free to join services with other christians when I first went to the memorial at the Kingdom hall I told my minister where I was going and invited him along and of course he came along with me. I have allways mixed with other christians from my school days we had religious instruction at school and I usually went to Anglican or Prespetarian scripture classes.
Gday James Woods,
In the SDA church all higher education is valued and because of this the church has had various problems such as the problem of evolution v creationism in fact statistics show SDAs have on average twice the number of degrees as the rest of the population in the US.
Gday Chimene,

50% of SDAs practice health reform and as a result have a longer and better quality older age and this is actually causing problems for the churches retirement fund as health reform is working too well with people living far longer than they ever expected. This can be verified by independant scources.
Gday Wednesday.,
SDAs actually dont df since 2000 no SDA has been DF the most a church can do is ask a member to leave and of course there is no shunning either. Here is an interesting artical it nearly is enough convince me to be a vegetarian http://www.spectrummagazine.org/onlinecommunity/featuredcolums/060210rice.html
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 10 years ago

Thank you Barry, and all the other people that commented.
It sounds as if the SDA's are keeping up with the times and becoming a better religion for it.
I have heard of studies done into SDAs by the medical community due to their reputation for being the most healthy living group, at the time I was a JW so I had wondered why JWs dont get studied, obviously I now realise that they do not stand out in that regard.
 
barry
barry 10 years ago

if i have made the SDA church look to rosey to balance things out there is an SDA doctrine I must write about soon its called the investigative judgement and is a doctrine I strongly dissagree with and is promoted for the most part by the Traditional SDA group. Barry
 
james_woods
james_woods 10 years ago

Barry - thanks for putting that thread up. Maybe what MF Richard was relating on the college/medical thing was the tradition your church has held for medical progressive thought.
Didn't know if you wanted to go there, but could you comment for the benefit of the rest of us on the Millerite chronology (1844,1874) and the splinter group connection to JW roots? Is there an official position on that? And, of course, have you folks given up on chronology and time of the end things?
Enquiring minds want to know!
YF, James
 
barry
barry 10 years ago

Gday James,
Just to clear up a few points from the start. William Miller after the great dissappointement of 1843-4 honestly and openly acknowledged his error.
The SDA church after being formed in the 1860s retained the 1844 date and reinterpreted it to be the start of the investigative judgement. Other churches such as the Advent christian church dont have the investigative judgement doctrine.
Other dates such as 1874 were used by second adventists to be the second comming of christ and an invisible presents. Most Adventist churches including the SDAs have never made a time for the second comming.
Anything written on SDA -JW connection and I would be on here in a heartbeat to tell you all about it.
For the purpose of youre question about Millers chronology I will refer to a book recently written by Kai Arasola who is the current president of east Finlands SDA conference. His recent doctoral dissertation from Uppsala University is now making its way through the Adventist scholarly world.
Kai writes, Miller utilised by God,
William Miller was a man of undoubted integrity and a thorough Christian was the founder of the Millerite Movement of the 1840s thet looked for Christs return about 1843-1844.
He insisted that the then current hope for an increasingly better world culminating in a millenium of blessedness was biblicly unfounded. He was correct. The Baptist farmer was . ahead of the theologians.
Miller Mistaken, But Miller accepted prevailing popular views about the interpretation of prophecy using the year-day principle to arrive at significant dates in the christian era and thereby contravened the warnings of Christ in Acts 1-7 and Matthew 24-36.
Millers methods refuted, Kai points out that William Miller had fifteen ways of arriving at 1843-44 as the general time of Christs return, The time prophecy of Daniel 8-14 was only one of Millers proofs and he gave no prominence to it . This is the one used by Adventists.
Bible scholard in Millers time and later looked at Millers fifteen proofs and found them without validity. There were few who could be called bible scholars who were in the Great Dissappointement of 1844.
Kai points out the flimsy nature of Millers chronological pillars. Kai emphasises that the whole scholarly world has repudiated them. He mentions that only Seventh day Adventists, The worldwide church of God and the Jehovahs Witnesses cling to Millers approach in interpreting Prophecy.
When Kai Mentions Seventh Day Adventism he is mainly talking about the traditional SDAs not the scholars of the church.
Critical Quotations,
Firstly and possibly most significantly one can consider what is missing in Millers rules. They make no mention of Christ of salvation or of the gospel. This matches the near total lack of devotional writing in Millers perodicals in spite of the fact that some historicits outside of Millerism sought to interpret prophecies with a Christocentric method only few Millerites expressed any concern about this.
The proofs rest on technical points like biblical and historical chronology which probably gave athe system. Laymen were unable to check the validity of the points themselves and emotional factors and the retoric of the arguement may have led many to decide in favour of Miller.
All of Millers calculations contain a mathematical error. Miller overlooked the non-existence of a year zero which indicates that no Millerite before 1844 did his homework correctly.
Millerites beleived that a multiplication of weak points makes one strong point. Thus the arguement was multiplied into 15 points some of which were justly ridiculed by opponents and brushed aside by supporters.the path of logic
Some of the proofs are not time prophecies at all or their actual intent is turned upside down. The power of religious convictions has rarely followed the paths of logic.
I beleive this book called 'The End of Historicism ' would be as helpfull to JWs as it is to SDAs Barry
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 10 years ago

Thanks Barry.
What is the investigative judgement, it seems to have some prominence for SDA's?
 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
hi barry, .
noticed you are online, so i wanted to grab you and find out how you perceive seven day adventists compare to jws: .
1 - equally cult like .



Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
biblexaminer
PEACE AND SECURITY!
by biblexaminer 12 days ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Island Man
How the Bible disproves the JWs' 1914 invisible presence doctrine.
by Island Man 2 months ago
mtwtf
Misleading The Australian Royal Commission
by mtwtf 7 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/108737/barry-how-do-seven-day-adventists-compare-jws?page=2&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Elders raid a SDA church!
/  





 

Elders raid a SDA church!
by ozziepost 11 years ago 55 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago


G'day all,

Is it true what we're hearing? It's been reported to us that two elders burst in to a SDA church service about a month ago seeking to trap a Witness man there.
The man, a Witness for 14 years, had become disillusioned with the affairs of the WTS in Australia after viewing the "Sunday" program on Channel Nine which exposed the cover-up of paedophilia in the Witness movement. A God-fearing man, he'd sought out christian fellowship elsewhere in his town of Devonport, Tasmania. The elders must have learned that he was attending a SDA church and wanted to "catch him in the act" as it were.
So what happened?
The pastor left his pulpit where he was in the middle of the service and asked the two elders what they wanted. They replied that they wanted to speak with [name withheld] and the pastor approached him asking if he wished to meet with the two elders. "No, I don't," replied the Witness man, whereupon the pastor demanded that the two dub elders leave the church or he would call the police. They left.
What has happened since? No less a person than the Tasmanian Police Commissioner (Commissioner Macreadie) himself has issued restraining orders on the two elders!!
How bizarre! What on earth possessed those Tasmanian elders to do such a thing? Clearly the arrogance of the WTS knows no bounds!
Interestingly, the Police Commissioner is reported to have said that in his opinion the WTS' heirarchy in his state are "fraudulently corrupt"!!!!!!!!!!!!
Could this be a small glimpse into why the Dub movement is languishing?
Cheers, Ozzie
 
under74
under74 11 years ago

Ozzie- LOL!
That's crazy...good to know there's people looking out for that guy though...and that he saw a sign and got out.
Man, wonder what'll happen with those elders? Wait--let me guess............nothing.
 
Dansk
Dansk 11 years ago


No less a person than the Tasmanian Police Commissioner (Commissioner Macreadie) himself has issued restraining orders on the two elders!!
Great stuff. Wonder if they'll get reprooved!
 
Been there
Been there 11 years ago


The Tasmanian Devil made them do it!
That is too crazy. I'm glad they got a restraining order against them.
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago


Great stuff
Oh yes - this has been developing for the past few months - I've had the privilege of offering support to our freedom-seeking Witness and I gotta say, there's more! But We'll save that for another thread later!
Let me say that people in the highest places are well aware of the activities of dub elders.
BTW hope you're feeling stronger today, Ian.
Cheers, Ozzie
 
gumby
gumby 11 years ago


Holy shitski batman......strange indeed! Ozmeister....had you been someone we didn't know, the story would sound suspect. It's definately not a normal proceedure for witness elders to act in such a manner. It seems to me all they had to do was quietly sit down, look for the wayward brother, see him there, then leave as they would have their two witnesses (themselves), and take disfellowshipping actions for him attending one of christendoms churches.
Gumby
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago


Gumby:
Yep, I agree, it's so-o-o-o bizarre! I recall that when I was in Bethel I knew that some BOE were considered "loose cannons" but this Tasmanian lot, well, what were they thinking of?
I think it gives an insight into how disreputable they can become in their arrogance. The Police Commissioner certainly thinks that too.
Cheers, Ozzie
 
Brummie
Brummie 11 years ago


What a flamin disgrace! I doubt this sort of "busting" is a new thing, I could relate similar events, the elders really do think they are right to do such a thing.
Brummie
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago


It seems to me all they had to do was quietly sit down, look for the wayward brother, see him there, then leave as they would have their two witnesses (themselves), and take disfellowshipping actions for him attending one of christendoms churches.
Perhaps they had tried that already and been frustrated in their efforts. This brother could have been leaving by a side door or in some way they had not been able to view.
I have seen some elders reach that frustration level where common sense goes out the window.
Ozzie, I look forward to hearing how this boomerangs on the JW community.
I can remember 2 elders strong-arming their way into a non-JW home to try and drag away an 18-year-old young sister who had decided to leave the WTS and take refuge with this Baptist family. All the JWs at that time thought it was the right thing to do. The elders did not succeed in removing her and the police showed up forthwith. The Baptist family chose not to press charges...lucky for those elders someone was a Christian in that situation.
Blondie
 
Mary
Mary 11 years ago


What a bunch of knobs.............and ridiculous really, when you stop to think that Charles Russell endorsed many of the teachings of the SDA into the religion HE founded, so what's the problem?
Here's a links showing what the SDA believe........alot of the teachings are the same as the WTS:
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
 
Granny Linda
Granny Linda 11 years ago


Yes, yes, I wanna read a follow up, too.
Thanks, Ozzie.
GL
 
Balsam
Balsam 11 years ago


Wow that seems pretty extreme. I have heard of Elders here in the USA sitting outside churches trying to catch inactive witnesses exiting so they can be rid of them through disfellowshipping. I also know that Elders took turns sitting in front of a single sisters house trying to catch her in the act of fornicating by allowing a worldly boyfriend in her house without a chaperon in attendance. This went on for weeks. She was finally disfellowshipped because she got pregnant. And she was an Elder's daughter.
I thought that was creepy back then. I don't think from talking to an Elder 4 years ago that is a practice they do anymore. The WTS used to encourage that years ago. Perhaps those two Elders were of the old school. But even then going into the Church to speak to this man is shocking to say the least. What freaks.
Balsam
 
Country_Woman
Country_Woman 11 years ago


just crazy

Curious how it's going on.
 
badboy
badboy 11 years ago


WHAT THIS!
BREAKING INTO A PLACE ASSOCIATED WITH BABYLON THE GREAT!
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS ,MAN!
 
lawrence
lawrence 11 years ago

If the man wasn't there, do you think they'd ask for a copy of the 'Great Controversy'?
 
Wolfgirl
Wolfgirl 11 years ago

What an utter lack of respect for other people. How would they like it if someone "raided" them? Whether or not you agree with a particular religion's beliefs, you don't just burst in on their services.
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago

Are there any news article links about this?
 
gypsywildone
gypsywildone 11 years ago

What a disgusting display of lack of manners
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 11 years ago


Arrogance as well as paranoia. Really it's sad that people can twist their thinking around into thinking that sort of behavior is Christian.

"The tighter your grip, the more worlds that will slip through your fingers." -- Star Wars
 
PinTail
PinTail 11 years ago


Well" you ever heard of how crazy the Tasmanian Red Devil is, I rest my case.
Shane
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
Terry
THE OAF and the ONE-LEGGED MAN
by Terry 3 months ago
Atlantis
Man Fatally Shot At Kingdom Hall After Alleged Domestic Dispute!
by Atlantis a year ago
Simon
Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon 5 months ago
mtwtf
A Recovering JW
by mtwtf a year ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/81909/elders-raid-sda-church





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Elders raid a SDA church!
/  





 

Elders raid a SDA church!
by ozziepost 11 years ago 55 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20
Quotes
Quotes 11 years ago

The funny thing is.... (here I put the JW's shoe on the other foot)
If, say, a pair of SDA ministers had entered a KH, and interrupted the "religious" service therein, for whatever reason, the JWs would be up in arms, crying "Help! Persecution! Persecution!"
Seriously, can you imagine how upset and indignant JWs would be it this happened to them????
In this hypothetical situation, I suspect the JWs would use the fact it was TWO, not just one, minister to "prove" that it was "organized persuction", not just the random act of one confused minister.
And of course, being "persecuted" would therefore prove Watchtowerism is the True Religion(tm) and that we are In The Time Of The End(tm).
Of course, in the case cited by Ozzie, the elders no doubt felt justified in their actions..... what does the scriptures say about "double standards" and "two sets of scales"?????
~Quotes, of the "Disrupted my Calculus" class
P.S. I'm pretty sure disrupting a religious service is a crime in Canada; I wonder if it is a crime Down Under? And if so why have the Elders not been charged?
 
Dawn
Dawn 11 years ago


I also know that Elders took turns sitting in front of a single sisters house trying to catch her in the act of fornicating by allowing a worldly boyfriend in her house without a chaperon in attendance. This went on for weeks.
Too bad they thought spending time "staking out a weak one" was well spent. I think it would have been better to spend their time trying to help someone - perhaps inviting her to dinner and encouraging her instead of trying to hang her!
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 11 years ago


Too bad they thought spending time "staking out a weak one" was well spent. I think it would have been better to spend their time trying to help someone - perhaps inviting her to dinner and encouraging her instead of trying to hang her!
You have to remember, they could not risk having an "evil one" in the congregation because this could cause "Jehover's Blessings" to be removed from the congregation!
I recall how the elders would go on a "witch hunt" every time something bad happened to the congregation, such as poor attendance or low field service time. They would keep going until they found someone, ANYONE, to blame for causing "Jehover's Blessings" to leave the congregation.
Oddly enough, this never really seemed to help anything... so they just kept going after one person after another..........................
 
barry
barry 11 years ago


Im SDA but I havent read about that one in the media yet . must have missed it.
I would of thought SDAs and JWs get on allright. Quite a few years ago I was asked to go to the memorial so I asked my SDA minister did he want to come along. Anyway he decided to come along at the last minute. Anyhow he got on well with the elders and to my suprise he knew them all very well. Barry
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

They think they're Cops. But they're tactics are virtually indisstinguishable from the Gestapo. They've staked out my house and others. Due to "theocratic warfare strategy" they think they are above the law.
 
mkr32208
mkr32208 11 years ago

The man should write the socity and say he saw two elders going into this other church on sunday when they should have been at the meeting... hahahaha explain that away butt munchers!
 
HappyDad
HappyDad 11 years ago


They are absolutely disgusting. JW's think they are above everything and everybody. I'm sure glad I am out.
How bizarre! What on earth possessed those Tasmanian elders to do such a thing? Clearly the arrogance of the WTS knows no bounds!
Just wondering if they would "boldly" walk into the church I am now attending less than a quarter mile from the KH I used to go to? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........2 elders disrupting a wonderful service with about 300 in attendance. My pastor knows my story and one day he will have a program featuring ME of all people talking about the danger of the cult. I'm slowly putting things together and will be asking for assistance on this forum when the time comes.
HappyDad
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 11 years ago

What a fine witness those elders gave to those churchgoers! Surely, from their zeal, the SDA churchgoers can see how deeply they honor Jehovah's name and conduct themselves as true disciples of Jesus.
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago


Im SDA but I havent read about that one in the media yet
Why would it be in the media? Ahhh, now there's a thought!
 
barry
barry 11 years ago

come on Ozzie where did you get youre information from. Do you get the Record but I havent seen it in that either. I just hope the ex JW is with a group of Gospel SDAs. Barry
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago


Barry:
My informant usually, as in this case, comes "first hand".
Ozzie
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago

You may now like to read the sequel: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/81953/1.ashx
 
JH
JH 11 years ago

If the elders break into churches, they must break into this place too.
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 11 years ago


If the elders break into churches, they must break into this place too.
You can be sure of it! I've already been contacted about this thread!!!! Ozzie
 
Dansk
Dansk 11 years ago


You can be sure of it! I've already been contacted about this thread!!!!


 
steve2
steve2 11 years ago


I will probably get slammed for this, but I remember a great controversy within the SDA church just a few short years ago in which well-regarded church leaders in the USA were defrocked by that church for questioning the teachings of Ellen White. An expose by these unfrocked leaders came out entitled The White Lie and church members were warned not to read it. Sound familiar? Certainly, the SDAs I spoke to were scornful of the book even though they had not bothered to read it. Sound familiar?

Also, locally, there is a breakaway SDA church which has been trying for months to stop the big SDA church organisation from taking over possession of its church building (Woodville, New Zealand.) The members of this church claim it is their building, purchased and refurbished from their own money, but the big SDA church has been dragging it through the courts. Members of this local church have reported experiences that are reminiscent of aspects of what ex-Jws typically experience when they dare to question the Watchtower.

I?m sure that, if any SDAs read this, they?ll be able to justify it, chapter and verse. Sound familiar?

Okay, the SDA church may not be as authoritarian as the JWs, and I do admire the SDAs emphasis on charitable works. However, I can?t help but think, "Out of the frypan and into the fire" (although this may not hold much meaning to either JWs or SDAs, given the rejection of the literal fires of hell). My tongue is in cheek on this latter point, but the earlier points I made are harder to get around.

Maybe the two JW elders just wanted to say to the Witness man: "Hey what are you leaving us for? What have the SDAs got that we haven?t?" I can see it now: The JW elders will want the Witness to read "The White Lie" and the SDAs will want the Witness man to read "Crisis of Conscience".

Oh dear: on and on and on and on it goes with organized religions
! I?m bracing myself for the slamming!
steve
 
barry
barry 11 years ago


G,Day Steve,
Are you ready for the Slamming? here goes
Walter Rea wrote the White lie but he was only a small fish.
In Crisis of Conscience page 5 it there talks about Desmond Ford an SDA professor who was defrocked for taking issue with the Adventist teaching of 1844. If you have a copy look it up. Notice Des was removed from his teaching post but he was not disfellowshiped and he continues to speak in Adventist circles. The fact is we love our Apostates and they remain members of our church and many of us happen to agree with them including myself. Actually SDAs no longer disfellowship the most they will do is ask you to leave if you were to be disruptive.
The Adventists in contact with the ex JW person may agree with Des too as there are many groups in the Adventist community who have differing views.
And the fires of hell, yes SDAs do beleive in hellfire check with youre SDA friends. They just dont beleive the fires of hell are forever. Barry
 
steve2
steve2 11 years ago


Thanks for your reply, Barry. You spoke clearly and I didn't think you slammed me at all. You made a lot of sense. You sound like someone who has a wider a much more compassionate understanding of those whose views differ from official SDA teachings. It sounds as though SDAs in general may be more generous in their acceptance of difference than I gave them credit.
I'm still a bit uneasy though. The SDAs I know locally are kind of fundamentalist in their outlook. True, they don't disfellowship or excommunicate as per the JWs. But they're pretty judgemental and condescending in their appraisal of ex-SDAs motives and intentions. They're also very defensive about anyone questioning Ellen White's "teachings", almost the same way JWs become very defensive when the Watchtower is questioned.
steve
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 11 years ago

What I noticed among French SDAs is that there is a big difference between a sort of "elite", which is better educated and more open-minded (on the field of critical Bible studies, for instance) than its Evangelical equivalent, and the average church member who may sound much more "fundamentalist".
 
badboy
badboy 11 years ago


Should someone check to see if any demons have possessed these elders breaking into a place assoiceted with BABYLON THE GREAT!

An exorcism might be in order!
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
is it true what we're hearing?
it's been reported to us that two elders burst in to a sda church service about a month ago seeking to trap a witness man there.
the man, a witness for 14 years, had become disillusioned with the affairs of the wts in australia after viewing the "sunday" program on channel nine which exposed the cover-up of paedophilia in the witness movement.



Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
Terry
THE OAF and the ONE-LEGGED MAN
by Terry 3 months ago
Atlantis
Man Fatally Shot At Kingdom Hall After Alleged Domestic Dispute!
by Atlantis a year ago
Simon
Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon 5 months ago
mtwtf
A Recovering JW
by mtwtf a year ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/81909/elders-raid-sda-church?page=2&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Elders raid a SDA church!
/  





 

Elders raid a SDA church!
by ozziepost 11 years ago 55 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20
Golf
Golf 11 years ago

Ozzie, do they have cameras in that neck of the woods? If they do, why didn't they use it or they don't know how to use a camera? They could have taken a picture of him coming out of the Church or apply their famous 'two-witness' rule.
This is an 'absurd' and shameful story.

Guest77
 
Sunnygal41
Sunnygal41 11 years ago


Clearly the arrogance of the WTS knows no bounds!
Perhaps a better, more refined take would be that the arrogance of these two "elders" in the discharge of their "duties" was certainly apparent. Fanaticism manifested. Terri
 
Bumble Bee
Bumble Bee 11 years ago


Elders in my area have been known to visit churches. A friend of mine said they come to her church a few times a year, sit there and take notes, then go up to the pastor afterwards and tell him everything he said that was wrong! I have visited this church on a few occasions, and wondered if there were any elders lurking around - although it's in a different territory and they probably wouldn't know me anyways.
Can you imagine? Must have been short on their hours.
BB
 
blondie
blondie 11 years ago


Elders in my area have been known to visit churches. A friend of mine said they come to her church a few times a year, sit there and take notes, then go up to the pastor afterwards and tell him everything he said that was wrong!
Bee, I don't think this a standard, authorized WTS practice. It is probably a personal idiosyncrasy that would get the average rank and file around here DF'd.
Ask ozziepost what he did that was so bad to get DF'd.
Blondie
 
Simon
Simon 11 years ago

Wow, numbers must really be slipping if they have to form a posse and go on a man-hunt !
 
upside/down
upside/down 11 years ago


Just got off the phone with me "in" in the bOrg. He's a "big shot", but nice.
Anyway he says they can't hardly get ANYONE to come to meetings. He says it's pandemic! And this man is very conservative and NEVER says anything negative especially of the bOrg.
u/d
 
joe134cd
joe134cd 3 years ago

Bull shit until I see something in a news paper.
 
Jaidubdub
Jaidubdub 3 years ago

I'm sure Today Tonight or A Current Affair would be interested in this story...
 
Listener
Listener 3 years ago

Given that one of those shows calls themself a CURRENT Affair, I don't think they would be interested in something that may have happened 8 years ago.
 
Think About It
Think About It 3 years ago

Given that one of those shows calls themself a CURRENT Affair, I don't think they would be interested in something that may have happened 8 years ago.

Maybe the History Channel would be interested in picking the story up.
 
steve2
steve2 3 years ago

Or a documentary on prehistoric happenings....
 
Iamallcool
Iamallcool 3 years ago

Joe, OzziePost was a moderator here. FYI.
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 3 years ago

"But they're tactics are virtually indisstinguishable from the Gestapo."
Ah! There it came! Godwin's Law, although the statement came a bit too soon in my opinion. But let us refresh our memory and remiond ourselves of Godwin's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches." In other words, Godwin said that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.
 
villagegirl
villagegirl 3 years ago

Too bad this Elders bursting in to "save" someone
does not apply to children being abused.
 
prologos
prologos 3 years ago

the 2 witless rule means we can trap 2 of them with one bait. inside babylon the great no less.
you can not beat your fellow slaves unless you corner them, in church if necessary.
a good excuse too to see how the others do it.
 
Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

This old thread but way good and relevant. Thank you for pumping it up. Iam utterly shell-shocked to see read about the bad behaviors of these two Jehovah's Witnesses Elders. Regards of when it occured, it does matter today. I wish every JW read about it.

Scott77
 

«
 1
 2
 3
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
is it true what we're hearing?
it's been reported to us that two elders burst in to a sda church service about a month ago seeking to trap a witness man there.
the man, a witness for 14 years, had become disillusioned with the affairs of the wts in australia after viewing the "sunday" program on channel nine which exposed the cover-up of paedophilia in the witness movement.



Related Topics
Esse quam videri
Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
Terry
THE OAF and the ONE-LEGGED MAN
by Terry 3 months ago
Atlantis
Man Fatally Shot At Kingdom Hall After Alleged Domestic Dispute!
by Atlantis a year ago
Simon
Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon 5 months ago
mtwtf
A Recovering JW
by mtwtf a year ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/81909/elders-raid-sda-church?page=3&size=20





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Help: Been Disfellowshipped for 6 Days
/  





 

Help: Been Disfellowshipped for 6 Days
by weskerbouts 4 years ago 36 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
weskerbouts
weskerbouts 4 years ago

Six days ago, on the 24th, the announcement was made. The prior 3 weeks were an 'interesting' time after having come forward about my sin (problem). (I have an addiction to pornography.) Before the announcement, I spent time with close friends and family (all JWs) and told them what was to come. I was almost sure that I would kick this, and I intend to still, and work towards reinstatement. But I came across jwfacts.com. Long story short, things are as you would imagine--scary. To me this is a matter of importance, for despite what the WTO does, I believe in a God named Jehovah, in His Son, and His Holy Spirit.
I've prayed on the floor for direction, and there are times during the day when I still think of working towards reinstatment, forgetting what I read, just making a chouice. But this feeling of 'justice'(?) tells me I cannot given mostly the whole 1975 ordeal and the flip-flopping. Scripture indicates God does not work that way. What to do? I have wanted to get an education that I decided not to pursue due to strong influence from dear mentors and WTO's publications advocating trade schools instaed but I need first make things right. I know some here have had these experiences. I do not hate the GB of the WTO, but I do, at present, questions their claims to be 'God's spokesmen' and modern day 'Prophets'. I did have some doubt before baptism in 2005, but not enough to pull aside. I just dug in the literature and closed my ears to everything else and looked to the warmth, love, and encouragement of those around me.
My immediate family with who I live with are not JWs. But I have come to them with some of the material and they say, "I don't know what to tell you." I understand that, but I am waiting for something. My father is an SDA. Their take on things intrigues me. They have a similar teaching with a no Hellfire, no immortality of the soul, they have a belief that sincere followers of God, from any denomination, will be possibly saved. I had a Chief in Navy Bootcamp tell me this... Whenever he was lost in life he looked around at what he had, not what he didn't, said he would work hardest on those. I think, maybe, my father who did not raise me and who came later in my life as an SDA was brought here for a reason, but again, I'm not sure. I am waiting for a 'sign'. One that speaks to me so clearly. I wonder should I give SDA church a try. I know they are very smiliar to JWs. I read that on jwfacts.
What I need now is a miracle...
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 4 years ago

And the miracle is you!
Welcome to reality. We all have our stories and have all come to the conclusion that the watchtower is NOT the one true religion it's a high control group.
Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that 3 men should make a desicion about you personal life. Nowher in the Bible is the disfellowshipping of the JWs described.
These men have no authority over you or your life. Cast them off your shoulders. Refuse to recognize their self given authority. Do not recognize the self agrandizing watchtower.
Take strength from your non JW family and live.
Research here. Take your time and you'll see how unchristian the watchtower is.
Keep strong we're all rooting for you. We do not judge you.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Welcome to JWN. Well done on finding JWfacts, you can't unknow what you have learned, there is no way back. Sorry, harsh but true.
SDA would be out of the frying pan into the fire. Slow down, take a break, its like ending a relationship, its no time to go looking for somebody else on the rebound.
I am waiting for a 'sign'. One that speaks to me so clearly.
Then you will read whatever suits you into whatever random stuff happens next. You are vulnerable right now, let go of all religion for now and rebuild your life.
I have wanted to get an education that I decided not to pursue due to strong influence from dear mentors and WTO's publications
There is your answer. Get an education, make friends plan for a long future that will NOT include divine intervention
As for you addiction to porn perhaps it will help once you form new relationships. Sex is like food, the only people who obsess about at gluttons and anoroxics.
Best wishes

Cofty
 
yknot
yknot 4 years ago



Glad you joined The SDA's are our distant cousins from Adventist Movement. So, you are a 'convert' Why and how did you come into the 'truth'? No, worries dear, you will kick your habit if you so desire (moderation) fastest way is by starting to date We all will happily dispel any beliefs in the GB as 'God's Channel' because it simply is a myth .... Huggles
 
losthobbit
losthobbit 4 years ago

Hi Weskerbouts
Your eyes are opening to reality... this is just the beginning. I was never a Jehovah's Witness, so what I say may not be as important as what other people will have to say, but I have two suggestions which I think are very important, based on my own experiences:
1. Study open mindedness... never stop learning by watching videos, and reading books.
Watch this video:



Read this book (Software for Your Brain - free download):
http://www.schoolofthinking.org/software.pdf
2. Regarding your addiction to porn... if you want to be free from your addiction, or just learn more about it, go to http://yourbrainonporn.com/ and watch the videos there. This is a non-religious, open minded / unbiased site, which doesn't actually have an opinion on whether porn is good or evil.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 years ago

How did you manage to get disfellowshipped for that? Couldn't you just deny it?
Whatever you choose to do, I hope and trust you will not regret the day you found out the truth about the Watchtower organization. What you choose to do with that information is up to you, but at least you have been empowered to make an informed choice. But my opinion, for what it is worth, is that this wicked organization is not worthy of causing you such psychological distress.
Big thumbs up to JWfacts for providing the information.
 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 4 years ago

The answer is to start from ground zero and read everything and anything that interests you. Test it all vigorously. Tell yourself you aren't going to believe anything for a period of time, you are just going to absorb it all without any preconceived judgements.
In the end, you will probably consider your DFing a blessing in disguise. They have set you free! DFing doesn't work anymore, because they cannot control information anymore. People like you can now can test their claims from the comfort of their living room.
Stories like this make me smile, less than a week away from a DFing announcement and a newly minted apostate starts to emerge. (aside from the pain you are suffering at this time, trust me, it passes quickly and I am sorry for anything you are going through right now).
 
Londo111
Londo111 4 years ago

Weskerbouts,
Welcome to JWN. I'm sorry to hear about your disfellowshipping. I myself confessed to the elders and was disfellowshipped. I realized that something was not right, that Christianity was not being practiced in the organization, and especially in regard to disfellowshipping. You still have value in the eyes of God and Christ, they have not disfellowshipped you.
My advice is to read Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom by Ray Franz. Also Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. Read, read, read.
Whether to seek reinstatement or not is a personal decision, but as you know, you can't help your friends that are still in from the outside (most likely they won't talk to you). If you do get back, then you can work on carefully freeing them.
 
diamondiiz
diamondiiz 4 years ago

Hello,
SDA and WTS have same roots. Research and research some more. What you will discover will sadden you and probably make you angry but that's natural. I've been duped when I was young and naive, thinking that wts was the truth without knowing it's past and many hidden skeletons in its closet. 1975 was big but there are so many other dates that it's so sad that majority of witnesses don't have a clue about. Having no JW immediate family is a blessing, and getting DF probably is another one since it allowed you to look around more freely. Watchtower is hides what it is and you will do yourself a great benefit by researching what you've been taught, what wts use to teach and why they changed the teaching when they did. The amount of misinformation that their publication contain will make your jaw fall to the floor. WTS' entire past is out there in the open for everyone to see and that is why they discourage general witness population from looking outside of wts publications.
Once you start researching you will want more and more knowledge which surely will take you in direction of examining the validity of the bible itself, did noah's flood really take place, where Jews really in Egypt and cross the Red sea with Moses, did Joshua really destroy the Canaanite cities as claimed and where did the Jews originate from.
Take your time and search for knowledge as you get over the fear and guilt instilled in you by wts the publishing corporation.
 
jam
jam 4 years ago

Weaskerbouts: Here,s A suggestion. Set A goal, lets say
six months. Read all you can on the various topics about
JW,s here and I gaurantee you will be glad you were DF.
Then pursue your education. You will be as happy and free
as A turkey in A corn field. The DF was the best thing that
could ever happen to you.
 
baltar447
baltar447 4 years ago

Recent guidelines for elders have and from platform indicate that if you are into "extreme" forms of porn then you CAN be DF'd. I'd find it very hard to believe that an elder body would DF for porn unless you were either into kiddie porn OR they don't like you and wanted you gone for some reason.
Extreme forms of porn according to recent ASSembly:
Bondage (this is "extreme" nowadays?)
Kiddie porn
Scat/snuff
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Welcome, Weskerbouts...!!
I was gratified to read that your immediate family are NOT Jehovah's Witnesses. That means that you WON'T have to deal with the ugly effects of the Jehovah's Witnesses' requirement to SHUN DISFELLOWSHIPPED FAMILY MEMBERS...
I would suggest that you use the "search" function on this site and look up keywords regarding issues that concern you.
Zid - the board's She-Devil
 
ziddina
ziddina 4 years ago

Oh, about the porn...
Pornography is actually far, far older than the bible.
Many forms of worship of earth goddesses incorporated pornography - well, what the uptight worshippers of Middle-Eastern gods would call "pornography" - into their rites and symbols...
Some of the oldest representations of goddesses are over two hundred thousand years old - and are representations of the forms of well-rounded, naked women...
The bible, on the other hand, was only written within the last 3,500 years or so - and was written by Bronze-Age Middle-Eastern males...
Ask yourself, which is the OLDEST form of worship, between the two?
Zid
 
Black Sheep
Black Sheep 4 years ago

Welcome to the forum, weskerbouts.
Don't wait for miracles, just stop ignoring things that don't make sense. They don't make sense for a reason, the reason is usually that they simply don't make sense, not because you are stupid, or need someone who gets messages from invisible space creatures to guide you.
Forget religion for a while and go and get that education you have been putting off. While you are at it, grab some books from the library that teach critical thinking skills and unlearn the mental blocking techniques that the Watchtower taught you. This is an important step. Without good critical thinking skills you could end up joining the next cult that just happens to bump into you just after you have prayed for a miracle.

Cheers
Chris
 
NewChapter
NewChapter 4 years ago

Oh for goodness sakes. Look, I don't know that much about porn, and I know even less about porn addiction---but it sounds like you considered it a problem. So you reached out for help. And what did you get? Certainly not help. This should tell you everything you need to know about this cult. And as has been pointed out, JW's have deep roots with the Adventists----so why trade one for the other?
Look, like Slimboy said, unless this involves kiddie porn, or snuf (I don't know what scat is---like I said, don't know much) (which if so, get help immediately) this was really an overreaction and a group of assholes turning their back on you when you needed them most. Education---VERY good choice. It's good to have you here. You'll accumulate a lot of helpful information. JWfacts is excellent!
So while I don't know the specifics of your addiction, and I don't want to brush it off in case it is something violent, I am hesitant to say it's not as bad as it seems. However I can say this, it is never better to deal with things alone. Whatever it is, it's best to be able to talk about it. You will never get that with a bunch of window washers with a superior sense of their importance, because they have been told they are princes in the earth---and who have absolutely no relevant training. You've been given a huge gift. Take advantage of it. No one want's to have emotional issues treated by janitors. Find the help you need.
NC
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 4 years ago

Please read "Crisis of Conscience" by Ray Franz. (PDF available at www.commentarypress.com)

There is nothing to gain by speaking with the elders about any private matters.
 
applehippie
applehippie 4 years ago

First, let me say that I am not condemning you for your problem. I would advise you to get serious about adressing it. Why do I say that? Because my sister dealt with her husband for 28 years and his addiction to porn and then getting her to dress up and act it out for him. It damaged her emotionally, alcohol was the only way she could deal with it. He was an elder, and an elder's son. Both their sons are also addicted to porn. And I'm not talking about extreme types of porn. They just can't stop.
Porn separates you and desensitizes you and makes it difficult to connect to a significant other and see them as a real person. For that reason I would strongly encourage you to do something about it. The possibility of you ending up alone is very real. My sister divorced that man and is on the other side of the country. She is an acoholic, struggles with guilt and shame. She sought help and was told to be a better wife and then he would be a better husband. So she takes a lot of the blame on herself.
I'm sorry if this is not popular or what you would like to hear. I'm sorry you are going through a bad time. I wish my brother in law had gotten DF, I really do. But he will never get help because he has never really had to suffer the consequences of anything he's done.
After all that is said, welcome to the forum. I do think you can find a lot of support and good advice here. But the only one who can make things better for you is yourself. I wish you the best.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 4 years ago

I'm not sure. I am waiting for a 'sign'.
How about this sign:
WELCOME!
And:
GO TO UNIVERSITY AND GET AN EDUCATION!
And:
Just because you'd rather look at pornography than read the latest Watchtower, it doesn't mean you're addicted to porn... IT MEANS YOU'RE NORMAL!
I hope these signs help... from a guy that's gotten out, is getting an education at university, and my interest in porn comes and goes
 
weskerbouts
weskerbouts 4 years ago

I will not discuss specifics of the level of deprivity of the things watched but I assure you it was not "scat" nor child pornography. There is new direction of the matter of pornography. This I am sure as it was previously unheard of, being disfellowshipped for such, until last year. (Probably something covered in Elder's School when they received their revised book for Congregation Elders.) I know a 2006 WT article discusses it--that disfellowshipping was possible disciplinary measure.
I came forward about it. I didn't want to continue this practice. I was a pioneer, on the RBC, an MS and had just about applied to BSSB in December but my conscience did not allow me to at that point. I do see it as harmful. I was asked 'how long?' I had viewed and 'how often'?. I think the fact that I had this problem before baptism, stopped before asking to be baptized, was okay for sometime afterward, but then again later and for the last 3-4 years... well, I imagine that was a major factor.
Other than that, I am considering, with a grain of salt, much of what the lot of you recommendeded. Many go back to the 'things of the past', but I did feel some teachings were right, though the hypocracy of the WTO lead me to [b]know[/b] that 'this' was not the way, but that Christ is the way, truth, and the life. I am still defining my beliefs, but I have just started. I have been reading and watching a lot of differing material. I do wish to pursue an education and move on--I have hope that I may.
A question that came up in my mind is say in the future I did decide to join, say, a non-denominational church... Would I have to write a letter of disassociation though I am already ''no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses''?
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 4 years ago

Would I have to write a letter of disassociation though I am already ''no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses''?
Nope. But it would make a nice addition to their file that you have decided to disfellowship them.
 

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/221295/help-been-disfellowshipped-6-days





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Help: Been Disfellowshipped for 6 Days
/  





 

Help: Been Disfellowshipped for 6 Days
by weskerbouts 4 years ago 36 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
cofty
cofty 4 years ago


I am considering, with a grain of salt, much of what the lot of you recommendeded.
OK that's your perogative but there is a huge amount of combined experience here so don't dismiss the advice too quickly. Keep reading and questioning.

I do wish to pursue an education and move on--I have hope that I may.
I hope you achieve this goal. Make it your priority.
 
shepherd
shepherd 4 years ago

This is how i see it: You confessed because it was bothering you. You have an 'addiction' so of course you can't just stop doing it and of course you were hoping for help. Instead they disfellowshipped you.
John 13:35
" This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
They will say disfellowshipping was an act of love. It was not. You were not caught, you confessed and sought help, and they 'killed' you spiritually (in the JW opinion) for it instead.
I would say one thing, if you think of porn as normal your addiction will probably weaken. One reason you are 'hooked' is probably because you think it is wrong, so wrong the more you try not to think about it, the more you are actually focussing your mind towards it. Once you rebalance your views you will crave it less.
And whatever elder was the most aggressive at your JC, is most probably fighting the same urges in secret :smile:
 
aquagirl
aquagirl 4 years ago

"You will be as happy and freeas A turkey in A corn field." I LOVE that image!!!!You are going thru the toughest part now,Lean,ok?On anyone,friends,someof us here in the forum{including me} and ask and talk.Its what will help you,as it has helped many others.It is delightful to hear that you want an education!Perfect! Eh,dont be so hard on yourself,anyone with any real mental reasoning powers eventually ends up getin gthe old 'heave ho' from the dubs.They want dummies.Followers.Folks who quetion nothing,like Jim Jones's vrew,You got out!Wah hoo!!!!You will start to appreciate your decision,Right now tho,you hav eto remove any doubts by talikng to some of us who have been thru it,{yeah it sux],but we are ll here,because we care and want to help.And some of us HAD help from others.Lean,baby,lean,k?Be strong,and Welcome to out group,lucky you!Oh,and watch out for the monkey,he is a little,um,grabby....lol
 
jam
jam 4 years ago

When I was A elder and young MS came to me, A problem
with masturbation. Fortunately for him I was on my way out.
The young man was in his late 20,s and single. I told him to pray on it
and get married. But he felt it was A big problem causing severe
depression. Guess what, he got married and the problem or the
problem he thought he had went away.
 
mind blown
mind blown 4 years ago

Ok.....here it goes...... I work in the industry so I hope I can help....

Ok.....here it goes...... I work in the industry so I hope I can help....
Before you start questioning your faith, you need to deal with your issue. If you don't you will carry it were ever you go. This is fact.

From what I gather it's more then a simple case of sexual frustration (you mentioned "how many times" and "scat", leads me to believe it's a heavy type of fetish/obsession).
If "anything" becomes an obsession there's an issue, even in the world.
I suggest you speak with a therapist, counsler or go to a program. Again, if it's not a simple case of sexual frustration, it will rule you and will overlap and or interfear with real life intimate relationships when you do have them. A professional can tell you what's normal or not. They deal with all types of situational experience...no worries....


 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 4 years ago

Before you go jumping into another religion, please take some time to get to know yourself. First of all, consider your age, marital status, and type of pornography that you think you're addicted to. You may want to work this out with a therapist. Then consider what type of profession you would like to pursue. If it's not a trade, then get yourself enrolled in college. The reccommended reading list of books by Ray Franz and Steve Hassan is a good one to start. Most of all, just take your time to make good decisions. Now is NOT the time to panic.
The kind of porn you view and whether or not you're addicted to it is ot my business. But if you're like many other young men who have posted here, just watching human beings having vanilla sex drove them mad with guilt. The same goes for masturbation. The Watchtower turns young people against their own bodies. It is normal for people to express their sexuality. If one doesn't do so, then a substitute will always be found. Do some research on masturbation and the type of porn you prefer. Find out if science say it is perverted or unnatural, (ie with animals,children, rape, etc).
 
Azazel
Azazel 4 years ago

hi there weskerbouts im really glad for you that you have made it to this forum. Please dont rush into anything religious. I almost got sucked into the Mormons after being DF but thru luck didnt go.
If you have a religious need i sugest get a good reference bible ( "The Interlinear Bible" etc or free like E-Sword online) and start reading the NT and i promise freind without interjecting WTS doctrine you will be amazed and come to know that we have overlooked Jesus as JW.
listen to the good advice you will hear on the forum and im sure you will do well.
 Azazael
 
mind blown
mind blown 4 years ago

came back to ps.....JamieB has some great advice.
If you decide to stay in or out......suggestion still applies.....you need to change things up for yourself.....you cannot survive on scripture alone.....balance..
 
mind blown
mind blown 4 years ago

opps.....
....suggestion still applies re occupation and or college.....
 
Juan Viejo2
Juan Viejo2 4 years ago

I totally agree with everyone that suggests that you give yourself a breather from religion. Just give that part of your life a rest and use the time to expand your interests.
As to your addiction? A sociologist that I knew told me that 85% of all men admit that they masturbate whether they have porn available or not. Then he told me that the other 15% are lying. Unless you are dysfunctional or a castrato, if you are under 70 years old you'll probably look at porn or conjure up visions in your head. It's wired into your brain. If you are busy doing other things, then you can control your urges and reduce your need for visual stimulation.
The HBO TV series "Rome" had sets that showed porn drawn on the walls of buildings all over the city. Most graffiti was porn. Art and statues of gods, goddesses and even heroes were typically naked or show in suggestive poses. When they dug up Pompei a few years ago they discovered pornographic images all over the wall of the public bathhouses and wealthy homes. It was just part of their culture.
The Witness leaders have this mindset that is similar to that of my grandmother's. She and my grandfather were married for nearly 70 years, but she always dressed in a closet out of his view and always wore a beddress when they slept. She proudly announced on several occasions that Granddad had never seen her naked. Of course, she was my grandmother, and the idea of seeing her naked is a stomach-turner for me. But she just felt it was sinful to be naked in front of a man.
My guess is that there are quite a few serial porn viewers even among the Governing Body - it's so easy to get.
So if you really are confused and feel that your particular taste in porn is damaging to your mental health or that it may lead you to commit criminal acts, then go get some professional help from a medically degreed professional - not from a religious charlatan or a preacher that is a so-called expert.
JV
 
Fernando
Fernando 4 years ago

Welcome weskerbouts!
Sorry to hear about the way this was handled. Many here have gone through this "freaking out" stage to a more calm and rational place. Actually though I think you are handling matters more calmly and rationally at this trying point than many of us may have at the time.
You have your miracle - a major (albeit painful) event that is setting you free from religion/ists!
And its great that the bad experience has not turned you away from God, faith, spirituality or the gospel ("good news")!
The fact is you have been disfellowshipped because you have a conscience, and they are ignorant and blind to how they should have responded and helped. This is no way to treat someone who is addicted and wants help! But it is a great way to open your eyes to some unpleasant truths and realities about religion/ists.
In time you may be delighted to discover that "the truth" is a person (John 14:6) who absolutely delights in helping us out with our addictions! He is observing closely your journey out of religion and would be delighted should you choose him over religion.
I was addicted to religion (the Watchtower's version) and it's definitely worse than pornography, since one is actively worshipping the "god of religion" and snubbing the "God of Abraham". How on earth can one beat any addiction like that?
I would highly recommend seeing a good Psychologist and coming to grips with CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy). This is part of the secret to unravelling addiction (of any description). Our (addictive or aberrant) behaviour is underpinned by (addictive or aberrant) emotions and feelings, which are underpinned by (addictive or aberrant) thinking, which is underpinned by (addictive or aberrant) beliefs, which in turn is underpinned by a low SQ (Spiritual Quotient). Religion is not the answer! It is often the problem! Just read Matthew 23!
(CBT stops at beliefs and does not yet consider spirituality).
Oh and by the way religion is really anti-sex, whereas Jesus is pro-sex and anti-religion!
Fear, shame, guilt and embarrassment are not of God, they are from the enemy. Jesus loves setting us free from these demonic strongholds employed by religionists, so that we can journey with him whilst we are transformed from within, something supremacist window dressing religion can never accomplish.
Ray Franz' books are a MUST read! They are rather big and represent a journey in itself! He was the real deal mind you! For a summary of his book "In search of Christian freedom" you may want to read the Awake article condemning "legalism" and promoting its opposite. This brilliant article was most likely written by Ray (g79 6/8 pp. 27-28).
Since we humans may give conflicting or erroneous advice it is always best to go to the source - God himself - and on his generous terms namely those outlined in the generous, full and unabridged gospel message (the real "good news") as partly and powerfully described in Romans 3 and 4 where a right standing with God is IMPUTED to believers as an UNMERITED free gift, despite us still being sinners and making mistakes!!!
 
weskerbouts
weskerbouts 4 years ago

Guys, I don't know what to make of my life. I feel like I don't even know who I am. There are moments when I just feel like going back but I can't... not with knowing what I know now especially. Yesterday for the first time I went into a church. I tried to listen mostly and I even participated in discussions. I was there from 12:30pm to 6:45pm.
I was very surprised at the level of kindness and interest shown to me, esp. by the teenagers (teens are usually to themselves and very opinionated, judgmental)--some who later confessed to me things about themselves and then would remark, "I have no idea why I told you that, but I feel like I've known you for a long time!" Others told me I 'fit in so well with everyone'. The elderly women of that church even held my hands when they talked to me (I was told later that those particular women usually aren't that expressive or welcoming) and there seemed to be something of an overall buzz in the church. Only the Pastor was a little aloof, watching me. We spoke at times but he seemed to be more interested in observing me first. I honestly felt sick to my stomach on my way in. Plagued with this feeling like I was going to be struck with leprosy for stepping foot in there, but it was also kind of freeing.
I'm not sure what to do really, but I think I should take a break from religion at least for a while. Maybe I should look to start schooling soon. I don't know what though. I want it to be something involving helping people. Maybe a go for a BA in theology or even a medical doctor. When I knew I was going to be disfellowshipped it was something I constantly thought about and even mentioned to some of the congregational elders. Of course, you can guess what relatively were their replies. Since the announcement I have not been to a meeting, didn't even go today. Though I thought yesterday 'after having gone to a church, I might as well go to the Hall'. I guess that stemmed from a feeling of guilt but I realize that's probably indoctrintaion taking over, an emotional response.
I even told my younger brother who is not a JW just about ten minutes ago I went to a church yesterday, and he told me, "Rob, if you're not a Witness, even I don't know who you are. I don't know what to think..." It's been who I was for the past 7-8 years of my life and since we were small we were exposed to the teachings. I had wanted to be a Circuit Overseer. I put off marriage, school, and well, I gave most of all I could...
I'm very depressed... I don't show it maybe, but I can say it. I'm frustrated but I have no one to blame I feel. I blame the Devil, but he isn't infront of me to curse.
In time like this, what have some of you done?
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 4 years ago

Will someone please tell me what SDA is?
 
3dogs1husband
3dogs1husband 4 years ago

seventh day adventist @ band on the run
 
Hoffnung
Hoffnung 4 years ago

Hi Weskerbout,
Welcome, and sorry to read about your sorrow.
What you can do:
- Realize you just connected to a new set of friends. Keep on posting here how you feel and what you think. Some of us were once where you also are now. Many can relate to your feelings.
- Realize also that you mistook your elders for shepherds. You asked them for help, and they kicked you out in a cold dark world, sure you would be alone out there. They are no sheperds, they are powerfreaks, who got high on the ecstasy of ruining your personal life. (once you realize this, it easy enough to find out how you get reinstated, while hiding your true feelings for those hypocrites). I find it quite shocking they form a JC and disfellowship for viewing P, because many elders have problems with that themselves. I would imagine the could handle that without a JC. You were so honest to come for it, can't them bastards see that? Are you sure none of them had a kind of envy against you, and saw this as an excellent occasion to get rid of you? If you feel better in another church, why not. just do not replace one high-control religion with another one.
- Get enrolled in social activities, sports and alike, do not stay on your own. read the many experiences of others on this board, you will find indications for your way out. Now you took the big step to go search on the internet, do a lot of research.
- Do NOT write any letters in the next few months to the congregation. Please be aware you are emotionally unstable at the moment (absolutely normal), and you will regret any big decisions you take. If you want to be reinstated, you will have to play the most humble person in the universe for at least a year, going to most of the meetings with a colored study watchtower, being ignored by all.
- Enjoy your freedom, with moderation. Don't do shocking things, but go to concerts, theather, find a hobby, music instrument, drawing, etc...
Hang in there. You will make it.
Hoffnung
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 4 years ago

Let me discuss your opening post without reading further down the line to others and their excellent posts.
...having come forward about my sin (problem).
I am glad you put "problem" in afterward. To be clear, you need to stop letting some cult (or any religion) define the things you do as "sins." I can agree that most illegal things that WTS would define as "sins" are immoral- murder, rape, assault, etc. Otherwise, it is a shame that they are given this power over people.
You came forward, wishing help. They don't understand addictions. They just know you are a repeat violator of their rules. If you believe it's a problem, I hope you get some help, but don't feel you must lower your self-respect for doing what comes naturally to many people.

My immediate family with who I live with are not JWs.
I so hope that someone has helped you to think about just walking away. You will lose your JW friends no matter what and it sounds like you don't have really anything else to lose. Finish learning about WTS and the JW's and don't feel any pressure to hurry up.
I think, maybe, my father who did not raise me and who came later in my life as an SDA was brought here for a reason, but again, I'm not sure. I am waiting for a 'sign'.
No matter what I say, believers will skewer me for trying to make a statement from my current non-belief position. Please be careful what you view as "a sign." JW's come to doors because they are out there so much- but it appears to some as a sign. Some people are bound to be asking for a sign when JW's come by. Same with SDA relatives. There are coincidences out there. Do not be in a hurry to just jump right into something else. Slow down and remember to relax about life changes.
Good luck, whatever the case.
 
harleybear
harleybear 4 years ago

Dear help: been DF for 6 days.

First and formost understand that the body of elders and not trained, professional therapists. They are in no way qualified to counsel, guide, or mentor on mattesr of addition. Although I was raised JW and was "active" until my mid 20"s then became "inactive"I thought it was a good idea to "get back in" in my late 40"s. During my "out time" I married my husband, a globe head (that is a worldly person ) who by the was is the best thing that ever happen to me. Only one problem, I had developed a big drinking habit in recent years. Knowing I needed to stop I thought going back would help. Imagine my surprize when my husband were invited to a dinner party at an elders house with several other JW's who all got sloshed to the gills. It was a few weeks later after confiding in another elder about my concerns about my drinking the word got out (as it always does) and the same elder who held the party corned me in the KH and informed me that I would be looking at judicial disipline. For some strange reason I quessed he was doing a little CYA. I said bring it on, but informed him that I was going to be brutally honest about his little dinner party including the several incidents of "brothers" hitting on me. Now understand I was the one with the "problem" but did not drink that night because of my desire to stop drinking and respect his home. When I shared this with my husband he went postal and since then has made it eminently clear to all JW's who visit our home or attempt to shepard that he will not have any of it. Works for me !!!!!!!! by the way I have been sober for sometime with the help of support from friends and loved one , all none being JW's, and knowing God will grant me the serenity of accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. You hang in there and if the matter of porn is a concern to you, seek real help. Harleybear and...ridin free
 

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
six days ago, on the 24th, the announcement was made.
the prior 3 weeks were an 'interesting' time after having come forward about my sin (problem).
(i have an addiction to pornography.



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/221295/help-been-disfellowshipped-6-days?page=2&size=20






Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ Anyone have watchtower 15 july 1997 The investigative Judgement article?
/  





 

Anyone have watchtower 15 july 1997 The investigative Judgement article?
by barry 2 years ago 9 Replies latest 2 years ago   jw friends
5
10
20
barry
barry 2 years ago

I would like to see this artical being a former Adventist the Investigative Judgement doctrine was generated after the dissapointment in 1844
From what I have read this artical by the WT also mentions SDA scholars that have theological problems with the Investigative Judgement and many Adventists don't believe it even though it is one of the SDA main beliefs
Barry
 
Nebeska Nada
Nebeska Nada 2 years ago

*** w97 7/15 pp. 25-29 The “Investigative Judgment”—A Bible-Based Doctrine? ***
The “Investigative Judgment”—A Bible-Based Doctrine?
OCTOBER 22, 1844, was a day of great anticipation for some 50,000 people on the East Coast of the United States. Their spiritual leader, William Miller, had said that Jesus Christ would return on that very day. The Millerites, as they were called, waited in their meeting places until darkness fell. Then the next day dawned, but the Lord had not come. Disillusioned, they returned home and thereafter recalled that day as the “Great Disappointment.”
Yet, disappointment soon gave way to hope. A young woman named Ellen Harmon convinced a small band of Millerites that God had revealed in visions that their time calculation was right. She held that a momentous event had taken place on that day—Christ had then entered “the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.”
More than a decade later, Adventist preacher James White (who had married Ellen Harmon) coined a phrase to describe the nature of Christ’s work since October 1844. In the Review and Herald of January 29, 1857, White said that Jesus had begun an “investigative judgment.” And this has remained a fundamental belief among some seven million who call themselves Seventh-Day Adventists.
However, some respected scholars in the Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA) Church have been wondering if the “investigative judgment” is a Bible-based doctrine. Why are they having second thoughts about it? If you were a Seventh-Day Adventist, this question would concern you. First, though, what is “investigative judgment”?
What Is It?
The anchor text cited to support this doctrine is Daniel 8:14. It reads: “He said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (King James Version) Because of the phrase “then shall the sanctuary be cleansed,” many Adventists link this verse with Leviticus chapter 16. It describes the cleansing of the sanctuary by the Jewish high priest on the Day of Atonement. They also connect Daniel’s words with Hebrews chapter 9, which describes Jesus as the Greater High Priest in heaven. One SDA scholar says that this reasoning is based on the “proof-text” method. A person finds “a certain word like sanctuary in Dan. 8:14, the same word in Lev. 16, the same word in Heb. 7, 8, 9” and holds “that they are all talking about the same thing.”
The Adventists reason this way: Ancient Israel’s priests performed a daily ministry in the temple compartment called the Holy, resulting in forgiveness of sins. On the Day of Atonement, the high priest performed an annual ministry in the Most Holy (the temple’s innermost room) that resulted in the blotting out of sins. They conclude that Christ’s priestly ministry in heaven consists of two phases. The first began with his ascension in the first century, ended in 1844, and resulted in the forgiveness of sins. The second, or “judgment phase,” began on October 22, 1844, still continues, and will result in the blotting out of sins. How is this accomplished?
Since 1844, Jesus is said to be investigating the life records of all professing believers (first of the dead, then of the living) to determine if they merit eternal life. This examination is the “investigative judgment.” After people are thus judged, the sins of those who pass this test are blotted out of the record books. But, explained Ellen White, those who do not pass will have ‘their names blotted out of the book of life.’ Thus, “the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death.” At that point, the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed and Daniel 8:14 is fulfilled. So Seventh-Day Adventists teach. But the SDA publication Adventist Review admits: “The term investigative judgment is not found in the Bible.”
A Missing Linguistic Link
This teaching has troubled some Adventists. “History shows,” says one observer, “that loyal leaders in our ranks have undergone agony of soul as they contemplated our traditional teaching on the investigative judgment.” In recent years, he adds, agony turned to doubt as scholars began to “question many pillars of our usual sanctuary presentation.” Let us now examine two of them.
Pillar one: Daniel chapter 8 is linked with Leviticus chapter 16. This premise is weakened by two main problems—language and context. First, consider language. Adventists believe that the ‘cleansed sanctuary’ in Daniel chapter 8 is the antitype of the ‘cleansed sanctuary’ of Leviticus chapter 16. This analogy seemed acceptable until translators learned that “cleansed” in the King James Version is a mistranslation of a form of the Hebrew verb tsa·dhaq′ (meaning “to be righteous”) used at Daniel 8:14. Professor of theology Anthony A. Hoekema notes: “It is unfortunate that the word came to be translated be cleansed, since the Hebrew verb usually rendered cleansed [ta·her′] is not used here at all.” It is used in Leviticus chapter 16 where the King James Version renders forms of ta·her′ as “cleanse” and “be clean.” (Leviticus 16:19, 30) Hence, Dr. Hoekema correctly concludes: “If Daniel meant to refer to the kind of cleansing which was done on the Day of Atonement, he would have used taheer [ta·her′] instead of tsadaq [tsa·dhaq′].” Yet, tsa·dhaq′ is not found in Leviticus, and ta·her′ is not found in Daniel. The linguistic link is missing.
What Does the Context Reveal?
Now consider the context. Adventists hold that Daniel 8:14 is “a contextual island,” having nothing to do with the preceding verses. But do you get that impression when you read Daniel 8:9-14 in the accompanying box entitled “Daniel 8:14 in Context”? Verse 9 identifies an aggressor, a small horn. Verses 10-12 reveal that this aggressor will attack the sanctuary. Verse 13 asks, ‘How long will this aggression continue?’ And verse 14 answers: “Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.” Clearly, verse 13 raises a question that is answered in verse 14. Theologian Desmond Ford says: “To detach Dan. 8:14 from this cry [“How long?” verse 13] is to be exegetically at sea without an anchor.”
Why do Adventists detach verse 14 from the context? To avoid an awkward conclusion. The context ascribes the defilement of the sanctuary, mentioned in verse 14, to the activities of the little horn. However, the “investigative judgment” doctrine attributes the defilement of the sanctuary to the activities of Christ. He is said to transfer the sins of believers to the heavenly sanctuary. So, what happens if Adventists accept both the doctrine and the context? Dr. Raymond F. Cottrell, a Seventh-Day Adventist and former associate editor of the SDA Bible Commentary, writes: “To pretend to ourselves that the SDA interpretation reads Daniel 8:14 in context then would thus be to identify the little horn as Christ.” Dr. Cottrell honestly admits: “We can’t have both context and the Adventist interpretation.” With regard to the “investigative judgment,” therefore, the Adventist Church had to make a choice—accept the doctrine or the context of Daniel 8:14. Unfortunately, it embraced the former and dropped the latter. No wonder, says Dr. Cottrell, that informed Bible students blame Adventists for “reading into Scripture” what cannot “be drawn from Scripture”!
In 1967, Dr. Cottrell prepared a sabbath school lesson on Daniel, which was sent to SDA churches worldwide. It taught that Daniel 8:14 does relate to its context and that the ‘cleansing’ does not refer to believers. Significantly, the lesson omits any mention of an “investigative judgment.”
Some Remarkable Replies
How great is Adventist awareness that this pillar is too weak to support the “investigative judgment” doctrine? Dr. Cottrell asked 27 leading Adventist theologians, ‘What linguistic or contextual reasons can you give for the link between Daniel chapter 8 and Leviticus chapter 16?’ Their response?
“All twenty-seven affirmed the nonexistence of any linguistic or contextual reasons for applying Dan. 8:14 to the antitypical day of atonement and the investigative judgment.” He asked them, ‘Do you have any other reasons for making this link?’ Most of the Adventist scholars said that they had no other reasons, five replied that they made this link because Ellen White did, and two said that they based the doctrine on a “fortunate accident” in translation. Theologian Ford remarks: “Such conclusions offered by the cream of our scholarship assert in effect that our traditional teaching on Dan. 8:14 is indefensible.”
Any Help From Hebrews?
Pillar two: Daniel 8:14 is linked with Hebrews chapter 9. “All our early works draw heavily on Heb. 9 when explaining Dan. 8:14,” says theologian Ford. This link was born after the “Great Disappointment” in 1844. Searching for guidance, Millerite Hiram Edson dropped his Bible on a table so that it would fall open. The outcome? Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 were facing him. Says Ford: “What could be more appropriate and symbolic of the Adventist claim that these chapters hold the key to the meaning of 1844 and Dan. 8:14!”
“That claim is crucial for Seventh-day Adventists,” adds Dr. Ford in his book Daniel 8:14, the Day of Atonement, and the Investigative Judgment. “Only in Heb. 9 . . . can be found a detailed explanation of the significance of . . . the sanctuary doctrine so vital to us.” Yes, Hebrews chapter 9 is the chapter in the “New Testament” to explain the prophetic meaning of Leviticus chapter 16. But Adventists also say that Daniel 8:14 is the verse in the “Old Testament” that does so. If both statements are true, there must be a link between Hebrews chapter 9 and Daniel chapter 8 as well.
Desmond Ford observes: “Certain things stand out immediately as one reads Heb. 9. There is no obvious allusion to the book of Daniel, and certainly none to Dan. 8:14. . . . The chapter as a whole is an application of Lev. 16.” He states: “Our sanctuary teaching cannot be found in the only book of the New Testament which discusses the significance of the sanctuary services. This has been acknowledged by well-known Adventist writers around the world.” So, then, pillar two is also too weak to support the troubled doctrine.
However, this conclusion is not new. For many years, says Dr. Cottrell, “Bible scholars of the church have been well aware of the exegetical problems our conventional interpretation of Daniel 8:14 and Hebrews 9 encounters.” Some 80 years ago, influential Seventh-Day Adventist E. J. Waggoner wrote: “Adventist teaching concerning the sanctuary, with its ‘Investigative Judgment’ . . . , is virtually a denial of the atonement.” (Confession of Faith) Over 30 years ago, such problems were presented to the General Conference, the SDA Church’s leadership.
Problems and an Impasse
The General Conference appointed a “Committee on Problems in the Book of Daniel.” It was to prepare a report on how to resolve the difficulties centering on Daniel 8:14. The 14 committee members studied the question for five years but failed to propose a unanimous solution. In 1980, committee member Cottrell said that most committee members felt that the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8:14 could be “established satisfactorily” by a series of “assumptions” and that problems “should be forgotten.” He added: “Remember, the name of the committee was the Committee on Problems in the Book of Daniel, and the majority was suggesting that we forget the problems and not say anything about them.” That would have amounted to an “admission that we had no answers.” So the minority refused to back the majority’s view, and there was no formal report. The doctrinal problems remained unsolved.
Commenting on this impasse, Dr. Cottrell says: “The issue of Daniel 8:14 is still with us because we have been unwilling, thus far, to face up to the fact that a very real exegetical problem does exist. That issue will not go away so long as we keep pretending that there is no problem, so long as we insist on holding our heads, individually and collectively, in the sand of our preconceived opinions.”—Spectrum, a journal published by the Association of Adventist Forums.
Dr. Cottrell urges Adventists to make “a careful reexamination of the basic assumptions and the principles of exegesis on which we have based our interpretation of this—for Adventism—indispensable passage of Scripture.” We would encourage Adventists to examine the doctrine of “investigative judgment” to see whether its pillars are based solidly on the Bible or are founded on the unstable sands of tradition. The apostle Paul wisely urged: “Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.”—1 Thessalonians 5:21.
[Footnotes]
Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies defines tsadaq (or, tsa·dhaq′) as “to be righteous, to be justified,” and taheer (or, ta·her′) as “to be clear, bright, and shining; to be pure, clean, purged; to be clean from all pollution or defilement.”
Dr. Ford was a professor of religion at the church-run Pacific Union College in the U.S.A. In 1980 the SDA leadership gave him a six-month leave to study the doctrine, but they rejected his findings. He published these in the book Daniel 8:14, the Day of Atonement, and the Investigative Judgment.
For a reasoned explanation of Daniel chapter 8, see pages 188-219 in the book “Your Will Be Done on Earth,” published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.
[Box on page 27]
Daniel 8:14 in Context
 DANIEL 8:9 “And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration. 10 And it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens, so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down. 11 And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.
“13 And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: ‘How long will the vision be of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?’ 14 So he said to me: ‘Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.’”—New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
 
A.proclaimer
A.proclaimer 2 years ago

Oh the irony! They weaken the whole seventh day adventist 1844 doctrine by looking at context and citing problems but that could be easily done with 1914, just by looking at Daniel 4 context and 607
 
barry
barry 2 years ago

Thanks Nebeska,
Thats a good artical by the WT society but it doesn't go far enough in detail. The WT society may be doing this for their own ends but one of the main reasons the investigative judgement doctrine is questioned is because of its conflict with the gospel of grace. Also desmond Ford mentioned in the artical endorsed Raymond Franz book which is also not mentioned. The day for a year principle is questioned by bible scholars also but is accepted as truth by the WT society
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 2 years ago

Having pulled the Adventist's explanation to pieces, they have an equally improbable one of their own. I must admit that my eyes glaze over at this kind of stuff these days.
"Daniels Prophecy " book pp 177 - 179 (published 1999)

24 No one can stand up against the Prince of princes—not even a king as “fierce in countenance” as the Anglo-American World Power! This king’s attempts to desolate God’s sanctuary do not succeed. After a period of “two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings,” says the angelic messenger, “the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition,” or “shall emerge victorious.”—Daniel 8:13, 14; The New English Bible.
25 The 2,300 days constitute a prophetic period. Hence, a prophetic year of 360 days is involved. (Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14) This 2,300 days, then, would amount to 6 years, 4 months, and 20 days. When was this period? Well, in the 1930’s, God’s people began to experience increasing persecution in various countries. And during World War II, Jehovah’s Witnesses were fiercely persecuted in the lands of the Anglo-American dual world power. Why? Because of their insistence on ‘obeying God as ruler rather than men.’ (Acts 5:29) Therefore, the 2,300 days must be associated with that war. But what can be said about the beginning and the end of this prophetic period?
26 For “the holy place” to be “brought,” or restored, to what it should be, the 2,300 days must have begun when it previously was in the “right condition” from God’s standpoint. At the earliest, this was on June 1, 1938, when The Watchtower published part 1 of the article “Organization.” Part 2 appeared in the issue of June 15, 1938. Counting 2,300 days (6 years, 4 months, and 20 days on the Hebrew calendar) from June 1 or 15, 1938, brings us to October 8 or 22, 1944. On the first day of a special assembly held at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., on September 30 and October 1, 1944, the Watch Tower Society’s president spoke on the subject “The Theocratic Alignment Today.” At the annual corporate meeting on October 2, the Society’s charter was amended in an effort to bring it as close to a theocratic arrangement as the law would allow. With the publication of clarified Biblical requirements, theocratic organization was soon more fully installed in the congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
27 While the 2,300 days ran their course during World War II, which began in 1939, the offering of “the constant feature” at God’s sanctuary was severely restricted because of persecution. In 1938 the Watch Tower Society had 39 branches supervising the work of the Witnesses worldwide, but by 1943 there were only 21. Increases in the number of Kingdom proclaimers were also small during that period.
28 As we have noted, during the closing months of World War II, Jehovah’s Witnesses reaffirmed their determination to magnify God’s rulership by serving him as a theocratic organization. It was with this objective that the rearrangement of their work and governing structure was initiated in 1944. In fact, The Watchtower of October 15, 1944, contained an article entitled “Organized for Final Work.” It and other service-oriented articles of the same period indicated that the 2,300 days had ended and that “the holy place” was again in its “right condition.”
 
Listener
Listener 2 years ago

Seeing that the WTBTS felt it's own teachings are far superior to the SDA's, an offer to get their own scholars (cough, cough) together with the SDA's scholar's to nut it out would be far more appropriate than tearing their teachings down in their own publications.
It is refreshing to see that the SDA allow and even encourage discussion of their main teachings in a very open way, without disfellowshipping anyone.
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

So if I understand correctly, the WTS is essentially criticizing the SDAs for saying "oh no - our prediction wasn't wrong, it really did happen, it was just invisible!"
The irony, indeed.
 
Londo111
Londo111 2 years ago

Maybe if First Maccabees was included in the canon, both groups could have seen this was merely about Antiochus IV Epiphanes. For the record, the Watchtower interpretation is far wackier...nor does the math add up.



 
barry
barry 2 years ago

Here is a video of Dr Ford at an American church I believe its a university church SDA . Dr Ford is the same as the one mentioned in the WT artical above well respected by many but by some is regarded as an apostate.
Dr Ford talks about Historicism a very faulty method of understanding biblical prophecy now only used by Adventists and Jehovahs witnesses. Dr Ford also mentioned the 27 scholars that rejected the SDA explanation of daniel 8.14 also mentioned in the WT artical above he also refers to himself as a rebel Adventist. The sermon also gives an excellent presentation of the gospel.



 
barry
barry 2 years ago

Gday Listener,
The SdAs don't dissfellowship your right about that but to many peoples dissmay Dr Ford lost his job and after that happened and I quote 'It doesn't pay to be right too early in the game"
The other theologans including Cottrell faired well.
Des got a job in an independant ministry 'Good News Unlimited' but is still invited to SDA churches to speak such as the one above. Some SDAs are poles apart with him on theology but still have respect for him as a christian brother others regard him as total apostate while the lunatic fringe accuse him of being a Catholic Jesuit infiltrator.
It depends on what faction the SDA member is in as to there support or dissaproval of a particular person and their theology.
 

5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
Adwoa Kromo
Sir David Eady to give judgement on the Watctower Appeal in the Otuo v Morley and Watch Tower case at the High Court tommorrow
by Adwoa Kromo 9 months ago
Tornintwo
Neglect of Adolescents by the WTBTS - Excellent Article
by Tornintwo 5 months ago
Listener
Two JWs visited
by Listener 6 months ago
punkofnice
JW terminology
by punkofnice 9 months ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
"THE TRUTH" & "THE WAY"
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 8 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/280354/anyone-have-watchtower-15-july-1997-investigative-judgement-article





Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ JW to SDA anyone do it ?
/  





 

JW to SDA anyone do it ?
by Introvert 2 7 months ago 34 Replies latest 7 months ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 7 months ago

Hi all,
A couple friends pointed me to some info on the Sabbath and I just plain like it, being the workaholic I am it's a lifesaver for me and gives me the motivation to be more balanced about my business and work schedule. So from there I looked into the Adventists and found a hall near my place and went last week. I honestly enjoyed myself and the meeting time is not disruptive and the people were great and pretty laid back. But one thing is for sure if they offer me a study I'll decline for now and just have fun attending and get to meet new people. The teachings are close to what I know and they use Jehovah's name in prayer, seem balanced and have a holistic approach to health which I appreciate as I train. So was wondering if anyone here has experienced anything like this ?
There is no one truth in my opinion so it's always going to be a tradeoff but I just want to be able to be part of a group that uses the Bible and worships honestly. They are Trinitarian, I am not so there may be issues down the road and kind of want to now what to expect if anything.
 +3 / -4
3rdgen
3rdgen 7 months ago
From JW to SDA = same song second verse.
 +10 / -0
quincemyles
quincemyles 7 months ago

What to expect.
1) Trinity.
John 5:23 requires us all to honor Lord Jesus Christ just as we honor Our Heavenly Father. If you honor Jesus Christ in anyway, it will be to the glory of God our Father. The Holy spirit must be honored by all Christians regardless of the nature of the Spirit. If one understands that, one would not have major difficulties with accommodating those who believe in the Trinity like the SDAs.
2) I would immediately face problems with SDA's view of 1844 just i have many problems with the JW's view of 1914. Both 1844 and 1914 are based on flawed mathematics and are given a false significance.

3) Like JWs last days tied to 1914, the SDAs tie the last days to 1844. The flawed date-pivoted preaching of a last days would greatly make it a challenge for me to be in either denominations. Both denominations have a flawed understanding of Matthew 24 and the book of revelation.

4) I want to believe that the beauty of SDA is in that there is no shunning, the laity can openly challenge pastors and elders on administrative and doctrinal matters. They are more tolerant to dissent than JWs in that they would not easily excommunicate you for openly questioning some beliefs. The rank and file are actively involved in doctrine development. SDAs are more transparent, encourage open mindedness and higher education.
As for the Sabbath, I believe it is as a personal matter as celebrating the birth of Christ,

 +4 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 7 months ago

quincemyles:
"I want to believe that the beauty of SDA is in that there is no shunning, the laity can openly challenge pastors and elders on administrative and doctrinal matters."
Not quite.
 +3 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 7 months ago

Always about power and control isn't it ?
 +2 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 7 months ago
Why bother?
 +6 / -0
quincemyles
quincemyles 7 months ago

Thanks Village Idiot.
I was under the impression that disfellowshipping among the SDAs involves simply deletion from the church records. The congregation members are not required to actually shun the disfellowshipped. http://leavingsda.com/adventist-exclusiveness-1/
“When a person has been removed from church membership, the church should, where possible, maintain contact and manifest the spirit of friendship and love, endeavouring to win him/her back to the fold.” – Offical SDA Church Manual (p199, 17th edition)


 +3 / -1
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 7 months ago

quincemyles:
“When a person has been removed from church membership, the church should, where possible, maintain contact and manifest the spirit of friendship and love, endeavouring to win him/her back to the fold.” – Offical SDA Church Manual (p199, 17th edition)
Sounds too much like Watchtowerese. "The Church" mentioned is probably an indirect reference to the "elders". I would compare that statement to the JW "Return to Jehovah" flyer which says:
"Jehovah never forgets his worshippers who stray from the fold. On the contrary, he reaches out to them—often doing so through their fellow believers."
 +3 / -0
rebel8
rebel8 7 months ago

The teachings are close to what you know, and so is the lifestyle and all the other things wrong with its sister cult you used to belong to.
There are so many religion-free options for structure, morals and fellowship.
Sunday Assembly
Humanism
And if you prefer more church in your church, this


 +5 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 7 months ago

My grandson is SDA (long story). There are some similarities and some differences. I think they are more mainstream, not anti education, not as strict about things. It doesn't appear to have hurt him any, he went on missions to built churches in Mexico, went to SDA school all twelve years, he turned out a good kid. He wants to be a minister, but the SDA college was way too expensive, so he joined the air force to get tuition expenses. His long term goal is to have his own non denominational church, which tells me he isn't hung up on the SDA as being the only path, which makes me happy.
 +4 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 7 months ago
Good link rebel8 thanks and all good replies !
 
millie210
millie210 7 months ago

I took a 6 week class with SDA last winter.
My impressions were that the people were much more relaxed and seemed happier than the folks in my own Kingdom Hall did.
Their growth is much more impressive than the JWs also.
 +3 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 7 months ago

SDA is the watchtower's sweet (vegetarian) Aunt Mary who lives to be a hundred because of her healthy lifestyle and encouraged you to get an education.
If you are religious and sabbath appeals to you that much and using the name Jehovah in prayer makes you feel warm and fuzzy, go for it.
 +3 / -0
barry
barry 7 months ago

I was brought up an SDA so maybe I can have some input here.
There is no shunning in the SDA church they used to drop names for apostasy but since 2000 names are simply dropped from church membership. The reason apostasy is no longer used is because negative conotations it implies.
JWs may be confused by this but their are different SDAs with different beliefs but that doesn't make then apostates. Traditional or conservative Adventists are in some ways like the JW religion.
There are also evangelicals and liberal Adventists. The liberals may believe in Gay marriage, evolution etc.
There has been controversy in the church regarding womens ordination,




 +5 / -0
barry
barry 7 months ago

My family and I have become Anglican but I still think some SDA churches are OK depends on the church. Being brought up SDA and my father an elder I always used to argue the point with the ministers. I disagree with the way they interpret revelation and how they arrive at 1844 was a point of contention.
Many Adventists support indépendant ministres some agree with the official church doctrine some do not. 'Good News Unlimited' is a great gospel centred ministry
 +3 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 7 months ago

barry:
"There are also evangelicals and liberal Adventists. The liberals may believe in Gay marriage, evolution etc."
It seems that almost every religion and denomination develops a spectrum of beliefs amongst their members ranging from strict conservatives (Bible thumpers) to liberals. Jehovah's Witnesses would appear to be the exception but that's because of their being totally controlled by their hierarchy.
 +2 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 7 months ago
Wow good stuff this is great thanks people !
 
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 7 months ago

It is my understanding that the JW history is based loosely on the SDA faith. Kinda an offshoot after the Judge heard an SDA minister (Wendell Jones I believe} and liked what he heard.
As far as there not being a real truth, I would disagree. Jesus did start a church some 2000 years ago or so.
just saying
 +2 / -0
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 7 months ago
Join a bowling League. There are not end times, no dates and no eschatology, just balls and pins. Meet people, trade shoes and bring disinfectant to spray in them. (The shoes not the people obviously). I am sure it is time better spent than going to the place where Russell got his start.

 +3 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 7 months ago

A bit of clarification is in order: IBSA / JW's are NOT an offshoot of SDA's. SDA's and IBSA / JW's are kissing cousins, having been born of the Milleritte Movement. Russell borrowed some "crazy" from the SDA's sure enough, but then added in his own crazy occult pyramidology, Freemasonry inclinations, etc into the pot to create his own stew of mathematical occult gibberish.
I'm in Pennsylvania, birthplace of all of this end-times Apocalyptic CRAP. SDA's around here do a lot of good, have a lot of schools, etc. However, they are just as "cult-like" as the JW's, and I've also heard of controlling Elder bodies, harassment, Pharasitical behaviour, and (Drum roll) - SHUNNING. They are only slightly lower on the rung of cults. My list of crazy would read like this:
1.) Scientology
2.) FLDA
3.) Branch Dravidians (an offshoot of SDA's, by the way!!!)

4.) Mormon / LDS
5.) JW's / IBSA
6.) SDA's

 +1 / -0

«
 1
 2
 »
 5
10
20




Share this topic






Related Topics
wayoutthere
Chronic relapse - what do I do?
by wayoutthere 6 days ago
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Tenacious
Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 8 days ago
cappytan
Governing Body Letter details things that "have never been done before." - Really?
by cappytan 2 months ago
Greybeard
The KEY WORD in Isaiah 44:25-26 is "Predictions" and the apostles NEVER made any predictions setting dates.
by Greybeard 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/431470008/jw-sda-anyone-do




Got it!
We use cookies to personalize content & ads, provide features and analyze traffic. We share data about site usage with social media, ad & analytics partners. More info





 src
Latest

Topics

Users
 
 


Welcome Visitor!
Sign up Sign in
Home
/ Topics
/ JW to SDA anyone do it ?
/  





 

JW to SDA anyone do it ?
by Introvert 2 7 months ago 34 Replies latest 7 months ago   jw experiences
«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20
barry
barry 7 months ago

There is a world war 2 movie being produced by Mel Gibson called Hacksaw Ridge filmed here in Australia. IT features Desmond Doss and SDA medic who refused to carry a gun and saved 75 men single handed in one day. The movie will be out in about a year from now I suppose.




 +1 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 7 months ago

TTWSYF 12 hours ago

It is my understanding that the JW history is based loosely on the SDA faith. Kinda an offshoot after the Judge heard an SDA minister (Wendell Jones I believe} and liked what he heard.
As far as there not being a real truth, I would disagree. Jesus did start a church some 2000 years ago or so.
just saying
Yes I agree, was referring to organizations and doctrines.


Wasanelder once : LOL haha !




 
barry
barry 7 months ago

Gday WingCommander,
There are over 700 independant SDA ministries. These are ministries that SDAs support theologically and with their funds so you could be right.
In my experience I have never seen Shunning used.
Elders of churches are elected by the members to run the church but they don't have judicial meetings. The pastor is the paid clergy. The elders can refuse to have a pastor preach if they don't like his theology I have seen that done in some churches
My wife was never an SDA and she used to call me a Davidian and that really made me mad.
Now we go to the Anglican church she has nearly forgotten that insult.


 +2 / -0
Clambake
Clambake 7 months ago

I have been to an SDA church a few times before. It is generally pretty cool. Some of the references to Ellen White are kind of nutty. I thought they didn’t do that but I guess they do.
Still they don’t really believe in the whole body of Christ thing and believe you are saved though your domination, only your membership in the SDA will save you in the end. They don’t do the whole interfaith thing.
At the end of the day they don’t ruin families and destroy lives like the WTS and I guess that is all that really matters.

 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 7 months ago

Sorry don't know anything about SDA doctrine but there's a SDA church near to where I live. It's a fairly non-descript, 'modest' building, similar to a kingdom hall.
The pictures on the sign for meeting times could have been lifted straight from the WT art department - people from all races with peaceful pandas, chilled-out lions and lush, green meadows.
However, unlike the WT, it does actually do something for poor people as it has a soup kitchen. I respect them for that.
 +4 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 7 months ago

SDA's are just as crazy at JW's. Think I'm kidding? Check out their LITERATURE. I was at our local fair about 3 years ago, and there was a stand set up by SDA's. (Kind of like the JW's do now - ha!!!) Anyway, what caught my eye was the literature they had sprawled out on the table. The size, look, and specifically the artwork could have been straight from WatchTowers and Awake!'s. It was really, REALLY creepy.....especially with all of the end-time apocalyptic crap on it.
Seriously, SDA is just another flavor of cult crazy. All this talk about how "harmless" they are, is just like what you hear people say about Mormons with their outreach programs, schools, family night, etc. Another flavor of crazy that most people don't have a clue about until they are wrapped up in it. The poster above who mentioned that they do NOT recognize other denominations and that you must belong to their group - that should really be a red flag for anyone who's ever been in a cult. Exclusive salvation thru association is a cult trademark. Jim Jones had it, David Koresh had it, JW's have it, and SDA's have it as well.
 +3 / -0
CalebInFloroda
CalebInFloroda 7 months ago

I find it creepy that Gentiles enforce Sabbath-keeping and celebrating national Jewish holidays as requisites to salvation, and the SDA included.
The reason the SDA does this is the belief in a doctrine called Anglo-Israelism. This belief teaches that white Americans are descendants of the "lost" tribes of Israel. As such they believe that they should be bound to the tenets of the Mosaic Law because it is the constitution of the Tribes of Israel.
Among the other groups that share this belief are the one-time sister religion of the JWs known as the Worldwide Church of God under Armstrong (who also predicted that the world would end in 1975, by the way), and the Mormons (though the LDS does not keep the Jewish Sabbath, per se).
Now you can actually swab the inside of my cheek and find DNA specific hereditary markers of a Sephardic Jew of Semite origins, but these deluded people cannot do the same (I've had some of these tell me that DNA evidence is irrelevant or that G-d changes their blood to be Jewish in a spiritual way or perhaps the Devil is tampering with DNA results to hide the truth). My thoughts is you can take any day off at any time of the week and get the same effect as a good Jewish Sabbath.
Besides, why observe the Sabbath like a Jew and celebrate Jewish feasts like a Jew and dress like a Jew, etc., but belong to a different religion? Just convert if you like it that much. Otherwise a little borrowing here and there from this and that doesn't require you join any group or organization of any kind.
In my opinion you are better off being true to yourself without denominational ties for now. Take in what's around you, learn from life, and if you end up adopting a certain philosophy or ritual along the way, let it be something that adds to your freedom, not takes away from it.
 +4 / -0
barry
barry 7 months ago

Calebinfloroda, Ive heard SDAs that believe like that I think its called British Israelites or something similar but Ive never met anyone that believes it.
WingCommander the SDAs do mix with other churches they have in Australia the 'Womens day of prayer' where women from every denomination gather together I don't know what they do maybe they just pray. The womens day of prayer is held in a different denomination every year. Ive been to many meetings in other churches that were advertised in the SDA church.
As I said before there are 700 independent ministries that many teach against the official SDA church in doctrine and are supported financially by ordinary members.
 +1 / -0
barry
barry 7 months ago

Ministers of other churches do occasionally take the divine service at SDA churches.
From the country church I recall an Anglican also the bible society used to send ministers to preach once a year that could be one from any denomination but not catholic. Growing up a good adventist boy I went to Anglican scripture every week.
Wing Commander I would admit some of the literature is creepy and much of it is conspiracy theories.
It is not supported by the Doctors of the church.
 +1 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 7 months ago
Pretty cool Barry thanks for your insight. I'll go back Saturday, gives me a day off to look forward to otherwise I end up at the shop always something to do. This way I get to stay home and pet the cat.
 
CalebInFloroda
CalebInFloroda 7 months ago

@barry
I do agree that there are some who do not subscribe to Anglo-Israelism, but I have had the unfortunate experience of meeting a few that do. Some of them even believe they are actually more Jewish than Jews, or so they have led me to believe by the conversations I have had with them.
 
barry
barry 7 months ago

This is rear Admiral Barry Black an SDA minister he became chief of chaplains in the US Navy and then he became chaplain in the US senate



 
WingCommander
WingCommander 7 months ago

And Mitt Romney (LDS/Mormom) was a Presidential Candidate. So what? That doesn't make him any less of a cult member. People and their "titles" (above) don't mean sh*t to me if they are in a cult. People in the military (especially) are trained to merely "take orders", "do as they're told", and "not think about it." Perfect cult member if there ever was one. Critical thinking is discouraged in the military. They don't want soldiers to "think", they want robotic soldiers who follow commands without question!

You live in Australia? Good for you. You should come up here to Pennsylvania (USA), the very heart of these 19th century cults, and try being in their congregations? The closer you get to the source, the more hardcore it becomes. JW's will tell you; Congregations on the West Coast (California, USA) are very very liberal and different than here in PA or up in New York. The closer you get to HQ, the crazier and more strict, fanatical, and zealous it becomes.

 +2 / -0
Terry
Terry 7 months ago

Why not simply join Mensa?
You meet people who can think. Superstition isn't required. There are meetings to attend.
1+1+1=3 instead of 1
It's Win-Win

 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 7 months ago

This is such an interesting thread.
Not many religions hold up to intense scrutiny do they?
At least that is my take away.
Introvert 2
Hi all,
A couple friends pointed me to some info on the Sabbath and I just plain like it, being the workaholic I am it's a lifesaver for me and gives me the motivation to be more balanced about my business and work schedule.

This gets to the heart of the matter Introvert2.
I think one of the gifts life hands us upon leaving the JWs is the freedom to try what makes us feel good.
Its similar to trying on new clothes. Not much to be gained in trying on cheap worn fabrics (drugs, alcohol etc...
but it can be loads of fun to try on the silks and wools and fine spun cottons in beautifully dyed colors. Who knows what one may find works for them?
On the Sabbath, at its core there are some interesting things going on anthropologically speaking. The entire concept of preparing food and abode ahead of time so that you can take a day to relax, visit with others, drink fine wine and know all the while that there is no societal expectation for you to be "working" or doing "something" is a beautiful one. It encourages all the things that feed the soul.
So try on this hat, see if it works for you!
 +1 / -0

«
 1
 2
 »
5
10
20




Share this topic



Topic Summary
a couple friends pointed me to some info on the sabbath and i just plain like it, being the workaholic i am it's a lifesaver for me and gives me the motivation to be more balanced about my business and work schedule.
so from there i looked into the adventists and found a hall near my place and went last week.
i honestly enjoyed myself and the meeting time is not disruptive and the people were great and pretty laid back.



Related Topics
wayoutthere
Chronic relapse - what do I do?
by wayoutthere 6 days ago
AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Tenacious
Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 8 days ago
cappytan
Governing Body Letter details things that "have never been done before." - Really?
by cappytan 2 months ago
Greybeard
The KEY WORD in Isaiah 44:25-26 is "Predictions" and the apostles NEVER made any predictions setting dates.
by Greybeard 3 months ago



Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/431470008/jw-sda-anyone-do?page=2&size=20