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Toasting is Pagan - How many contradictions can fit in 2 pages, I found 5?
by jwfacts 22 days ago 34 Replies latest 21 days ago   watchtower bible
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jwfacts
jwfacts 22 days ago

The Watchtower 2007 Feb 15 pp.30-31 explains why Jehovah's Witnesses are not to toast. What is astounding is that for each point they then go on an explain why the point is irrelevant, yet still conclude toasting is wrong. What did people think when reading this? I would have thought it was from The Onion if I had not seen it on jw.org.
Here is a summary of the article. We are told:
◦It is fine to wish someone good health, as Acts concludes with such a phrase
◦Toasting came from the raising of hands to God for a good outcome, though this is fine, as it was done with Solomon to the true God
◦Having pagan roots is not really an issue, as there are many similar examples that are acceptable, such as using pomegranates and wedding rings
◦Drinking wine is ok, it just should not be done as part of a pagan religious act
◦People do not toast to gods anymore, nor is toasting viewed today as a religious gesture

So every reason presented as to why toasting is wrong is provided with a valid counter argument, yet the article summarises that "Nevertheless, the fact that [worldly people] do not think the matter through is no reason for true Christians to feel obliged to imitate their gestures."
Sorry, I'm still confused, what was the reason that toasting is wrong?

The final paragraph ends with the advice " Christians do not share in toasting, which has a religious background and even now can be viewed as asking ‘heaven’ for a blessing, as if seeking aid from a superhuman force." Isn't that exactly what prayer is, asking for aid from a heavenly superhuman force?


In case you do not believe a Watchtower article would not make perfect sense, here it is word for word.




Questions From Readers
The Bible does not mention toasting, so why do Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid sharing in toasts?
Toasting with a glass of wine (or another alcoholic beverage) is a long-standing and widespread practice, though details may differ from place to place. Sometimes those toasting clink their glasses together. The person offering the toast usually requests or wishes someone happiness, good health, a long life, or the like. Others sharing in the toast may voice their agreement or raise their glasses and drink some wine. For many, this seems a harmless custom or social grace, but there are good reasons why Jehovah’s Witnesses do not share in toasting.

It is not because Christians do not hope that someone finds happiness and enjoys good health. In a letter to the congregations, the first-century governing body concluded with a word that can be rendered “good health to you,” “keep well,” or “fare well.” (Acts 15:29) And some true worshippers said to human kings: “Let my lord . . . live to time indefinite” or “Let the king himself live to time indefinite.”—1 Kings 1:31; Nehemiah 2:3.
What, though, is the background of the custom of toasting? The Watchtower of January 1, 1968, quoted The Encyclopædia Britannica (1910), Volume 13, page 121: “The custom of drinking ‘health’ to the living is most probably derived from the ancient religious rite of drinking to the gods and the dead. The Greeks and Romans at meals poured out libations to their gods, and at ceremonial banquets drank to them and to the dead.” The encyclopedia added: “Intimately associated with these quasi-sacrificial drinking customs must have ever been the drinking to the health of living men.”

Is that still valid? The 1995 International Handbook on Alcohol and Culture says: “[Toasting] is probably a secular vestige of ancient sacrificial libations in which a sacred liquid was offered to the gods: blood or wine in exchange for a wish, a prayer summarized in the words ‘long life!’ or ‘to your health!’”

Granted, the fact that an object, a design, or a practice has roots or parallels in ancient false religion does not always rule such out for a true worshipper. Consider the pomegranate. A noted Bible encyclopedia reports: “The pomegranate seems also to have been used as a holy symbol in heathen religions.” Nevertheless, God had pomegranates made of thread put on the hem of the high priest’s garment, and pomegranates decorated the copper pillars of Solomon’s temple. (Exodus 28:33; 2 Kings 25:17) Moreover, the wedding ring at one time had religious significance. Yet, most people today do not know that, considering a wedding ring a mere evidence that someone is married.

What about using wine in connection with religious acts? For instance, at one point Baal-worshipping men of Shechem “went into the house of their god and ate and drank and called down evil upon Abimelech,” Gideon’s son. (Judges 9:22-28) Do you think one loyal to Jehovah would have shared in that drinking, perhaps calling for a divine influence against Abimelech? Describing a time when many in Israel revolted against Jehovah, Amos said: “They stretch themselves out beside every altar; and the wine of those who have been fined they drink at the house of their gods.” (Amos 2:8) Would true worshippers have shared in such, whether the wine was poured out as a libation to the gods or just drunk in that connection? (Jeremiah 7:18) Or would a true worshipper lift up a glass of wine and ask for a divine influence on someone or a blessed future for him?

Interestingly, worshippers of Jehovah at times raised their hands and asked for a good outcome. They lifted their hands to the true God. We read: “Solomon began standing before the altar of Jehovah . . . and he now spread his palms out to the heavens; and he went on to say: ‘O Jehovah the God of Israel, there is no God like you . . . and may you yourself hear at the place of your dwelling, in the heavens, and you must hear and forgive.’” (1 Kings 8:22, 23, 30) Similarly, “Ezra blessed Jehovah . . . at which all the people answered, ‘Amen! Amen!’ with the lifting up of their hands. They then bowed low and prostrated themselves to Jehovah.” (Nehemiah 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:8) Clearly, those loyal ones were not lifting their hands heavenward for a blessing from some god of luck.—Isaiah 65:11.

Many people today who share in toasts may not think that they are requesting response or blessing from some god, but neither can they explain why they lift their wine glasses heavenward. Nevertheless, the fact that they do not think the matter through is no reason for true Christians to feel obliged to imitate their gestures.

It is common knowledge that on other matters also, Jehovah’s Witnesses abstain from making gestures that most people do perform. For instance, many people make gestures toward national emblems, or flags; they do not view such gestures as acts of worship. True Christians do not interfere with such gestures, but they do not personally participate. Knowing when such a ceremony may occur, many Witnesses have acted with discretion so as not to offend others. In any case, they are determined not to make patriotic gestures, which are out of harmony with the Bible. (Exodus 20:4, 5; 1 John 5:21) Toasting today may not be viewed by many as a religious gesture. Still, there are valid reasons why Christians do not share in toasting, which has a religious background and even now can be viewed as asking ‘heaven’ for a blessing, as if seeking aid from a superhuman force.—Exodus 23:2.



 +18 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 22 days ago

Great thread jwfacts.
Yes, rejecting something due to its supposed pagan origins or questionable beginnings means that the society itself is in doubt, as it too had questionable and dubious origins!
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 22 days ago
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/385530004/rejecting-something-due-unscriptural-pagan-origins
 
sir82
sir82 22 days ago

I remember this article.

Still, there are valid reasons why Christians do not share in toasting, which has a religious background and even now can be viewed as asking ‘heaven’ for a blessing, as if seeking aid from a superhuman force.
And I remember thinking, "OK, I've read the whole article, and even though the last sentence says there are valid reasons, none of them appear in this article."
I think right around this time (2007) was the beginning of the transition from a reason-based apologia of JW beliefs to a purely emotional appeal. So whoever wrote this must have been on the "B team" and the editors just didn't care any more.

 +6 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 22 days ago

Rules, rules, rules and more rules!
I am so glad we are OUT!
 +8 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 22 days ago

They don't want anyone actually using common sense and making a decision about such things themselves, better they should be dependent on the Watchtower to tell them what to think, do and say., after all, Jehovah might kill them at Armageddon for clicking glasses together, so better be safe and not do it.
 +8 / -0
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 22 days ago
BTTT
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 22 days ago

You missed one - they end by including that JWs shouldn't be seen as seeking aid from a superhuman force. Just what in the hell do they think prayer is?
Edit: Nevermind, I missed where you mentioned that. To me that's possibly the stupidest part of the article. It's like they're writing it as though JWs are atheist or something.
 +5 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 22 days ago

What they really want to say is ''If any of you plebs find yourself at a worldly celebration you WILL make yourself known that you are a JW by declining to say cheers!'' They're just maximising their puppet's preaching opportunities, advertising their brand whilst instilling the control over said puppet. Cheers!
 +7 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 22 days ago
JW.org is toast.....I will toast to that. Cheers

 +5 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 22 days ago

For some weird reason.....i totally feel that jesus was toasting when he held up the cup of wine and said what he said at the last supper. Sounds very much like a toast to his rememberance. N stuff.
Mad Puppy
 +2 / -1
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 22 days ago
Of course wedding rings have roots in 'pagan' religion, but those are ok because those pagan roots have been long forgotten.
 +3 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 22 days ago
I remember reading it and being confused. And not agreeing at all with the conclusions of the article.
 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 22 days ago

Thinking about this a little - what's the difference between a wedding ring and toasting or clincking glasses? I submit that the difference is one of separation from society - failure to wear a wedding ring wouldn't be that noticeable to most and wouldn't really cause you to feel like an outsider in the world. In fact it may draw a little extra attention from those that think you're single. This is to be avoided, so wedding rings are considered good.
Toasting, on the other hand, is something that most in the group won't notice that you don't do if you're out with normal people. But you notice. You see them do it and you know you can't join it. You're intensely aware that you are not like these people. They are different. You don't fit in. Even if you're not happy as a JW, you have no where else to go because you don't belong with these people either.
You can pretty easily go through the list of things they reject on account of pagan origins and the ones they don't in spite of their pagan origins and this holds true for pretty much all of them. If it's something that would go pretty unnoticed either way it's OK to do, but if not doing something makes you feel like an outsider, you can't do it.
 +3 / -0
under the radar
under the radar 22 days ago

And don't forget the piñata conundrum. Every argument about "pagan origins" and "false worship" used to forbid toasting could also apply to piñatas. Heck, even luaus (Hawaiian cookouts). But the false GODs (Guardians of Doctrine) in Brooklyn (soon to be Warwick) have decreed that piñatas and luaus are okay today because they are no longer have religious connotations and are therefore harmless as part of "approved" celebrations.
That's actually a reasonable position to take, but why aren't they consistent when it comes to other things? It seems like they just arbitrarily pick which things still have "pagan stink" on them and which don't.
There are a widely read satirical articles about True Christians™ wearing makeup and keeping cats that emulate Watchtower reasoning and make a mockery of it at the same time. They're hilarious, but they make a valid point. Many Watchtower rules are capricious and downright silly, and the reasoning behind them specious and self-serving.
It's all about control, folks. Blind obedience in small things leads to unquestioning compliance in big things. Here is official Watchtower policy, as stated in the November 15, 2013 Watchtower, page 20, “At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”
That's scary! Unquestioning obedience is one thing that led many otherwise good and decent Germans to become merciless mass murderers... twice in one generation! In World War II, they put their faith and trust in the Führer and his Nazi Party and committed unspeakable horrors that affect us all to this day. "I was only following orders" was not an acceptable excuse then, and should not be today.
Don't let anyone else do your thinking for you. Blind obedience has never worked out well in the long term... for anyone.
 +4 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 22 days ago
Excellent points. As a sort arbitrary mirror image of the approach of this article, wasn't there also an issue that dealt with wedding rings, concluded they were pagan in origin, but for some random reason that they were okay anyway?
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 22 days ago
So many rules. RULES. Stifling, like sitting in a hot car parked in the sun. Couldn't stand it.
 +2 / -0
OutsiderLookingIn
OutsiderLookingIn 22 days ago

Great OP and topic generally. As a never dub, the endless string of rules and contradictory reasoning is truly mind-numbing.
OneEyed Joe, I reach the same conclusion about the "difference" between wedding rings and toasting, but for the exact opposite reason. Everything JWs do is to raise their conspicuousness. It's all about how they can stand out. Wedding rings accomplish this goal. Marriage is still generally respected and respectable in our society. And as a single woman, I definitely notice a wedding ring lol. So a JW with a wedding ring and org pin (ugh) makes a statement without saying a word: I'm a JW and I believe in the sanctity of marriage (whether or not it's true).
As for not toasting, I think it is conspicuous in a small group (which is generally how toasts are made at a table...you try to clink glasses with everyone). If the one JW at the table abstains, someone might ask, why didn't you join in? Giving them an opportunity to give a witness (read: rain on everyone else's parade). I certainly think it's why JWs aren't permitted to celebrate holidays even non-religious ones. What better witness than to differentiate yourself multiple times a year for no good reason? But what's the one thing they are allowed to celebrate? Hmmm... Because JWs are so respectable  It's just gross. The control is sickening.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 22 days ago

And then you have a monumental lurch from frowning upon these relatively small and inconsequential social gestures to allowing witnesses in Chile to raise flags on flagpoles erected on kingdom hall properties in obedience to the secular authority.
Straining at gnats and gulping down camels, huh?
 +1 / -0
Alive!
Alive! 21 days ago

The piñata issue was another tipping point for me - the two page (?) article in the Awake spoke warmly about the 'light hearted' tradition of Piñata.
It's religious and pagan origins and associations were dumbed down in the article - a quick google search and a different picture emerged of its history.
So inconsistent it's not funny.
It occurred to me that this was a compromise to the fast growing numbers of studies and converts from cultures where the Piñata is an entrenched tradition.....
 +3 / -0

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Toasting is Pagan - How many contradictions can fit in 2 pages, I found 5?
by jwfacts 22 days ago 34 Replies latest 21 days ago   watchtower bible
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OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 21 days ago
OLI - You're probably right. I guess the rules are a bit of a double-edged sword. In my case, I was always ashamed of being a JW on some level because I knew sort of instinctively that it was wrong but couldn't find the hard justification in order to take action (largely due to the information control and phobia indoctrination) so my strategy in situations like this where the rules came up was always to avoid participating but do so in a way that was inconspicuous. If someone clincked their glasses, I was busy with something and awkwardly fumbled until I'd missed the moment. If someone was having a birthday, I would say I was on a diet and didn't want to eat cake. But you're right, the absurd rules definitely give the zealots in the cult more opportunity to segue into a sales pitch.
 +3 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 21 days ago
It's a cult. Modern day Pharisees.....
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 21 days ago

slimboy: There's a WT from 2002? That has an article on birthdays and an article on wedding rings. It raises a set of objections and reasons why birthdays are wrong.
The article on wedding rings basically mentions the same issues but waves them off because all that pagan stuff was a long long time ago.
 +3 / -0
Fencing
Fencing 21 days ago

It occurred to me that this was a compromise to the fast growing numbers of studies and converts from cultures where the Piñata is an entrenched tradition.....
That's exactly what it was. When that article was released, Mexico and other parts of Central America were still the "crown jewel" of JW growth. Not to mention the rapidly growing Spanish circuit within the US. They were doing everything possible to not discourage that growth, and I'm convinced magically deciding pinatas were okay was a big part of that.
 +3 / -0
mrquik
mrquik 21 days ago
That's the difference between opinion & principle. A principle is supposed to be applied unilaterally & consistently. Anything else is an opinion. Of men. Which makes my opinion as good as the next guy's. So I'm raising my glass of Johnny Walker Red & soda as we speak, toasting my good fortune to be out of a cult.......
 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 21 days ago
The discourage toasting so much, just to make the JW's different from everyone else, unique, different, ''no part of the world''. Control, it's all about control.
 +4 / -0
steve2
steve2 21 days ago
Apparently, if the brothers and sisters catch you toasting, you will be marked for certain destruction by Jehovah at the coming day of His wrath. It is that serious.
 +2 / -0
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 21 days ago

OK, so toasting is WRONG.
Is a GRILLED CHEESE sandwich pagan too?
 +5 / -0
pile2222
pile2222 21 days ago
The same thing with ankle bracelets! My sister said that she was told that sisters should not wear ankle bracelets because in Biblical times only prostitutes wore ankle bracelets, with bells on them. So when I wore one (without the bells of course) to the meeting on a summer day one time my mom and my sister gave me the stare and said that I could have taken it off for the meeting at least. I didn't take it off but they did make me feel uncomfortable just with their way of saying it and their look. Also before the 1920's only prostitutes and stage people at theatres wore lipstick and make up, does that mean because back then it was a bad thing sisters now can't wear lipstick or make up either??? What stupid reasoning!
 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 21 days ago

Any Christian religion which decries paganism is in ignorance or denial.
At least Pope Leo 10th had the audacity and honesty to mention with smug satisfaction to his colleagues at a famous dinner, "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us."
The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are still struggling to match their worldly glory.
Christianity is simply paganism which had been officially sanitized by the Roman Catholic Church... the cult from which all other forms of Jesus-Christianity including JWs have descended. These pagan beliefs includes its key player Jesus who is nothing more than a literary incarnation of earlier dying-and-rising solar gods focusing on Spring sacrifice and the annual re-birth of the sun . The themes of the Bible from the beginning of Genesis to end of Revelation are thoroughly pagan.
Nothing is really sacred!
Jehovah's witnesses imagine that by avoiding a few cultural gestures, birthdays and toasting, they are pleasing God... it is trifling and silly... and shows facets of their mind bending demands for total obedience from a controlling cult leadership.
The idea of God itself is a pre-eminent pagan concept. The primitive folk explanation for the reason for the world's being is that a god made it and us.
As for pinatas they too seem to belong to the pagan world and so the GB are indeed hypocrites but we all knew that anyway. A little research on the net shows it was possibly connected to a spring ritual originating in China. So keep the Hispanic brothers on board and putting cash into the Watchtower coffers.
Perhaps we are going to see a number of changes in favour of religious tolerance from the JWorg, where to do so brings in more of the moolah?
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 21 days ago

You can just picture it can't you - old Freddie Franze poring over his beloved Encyclopedia Brittanica and saying " HERE NATE..guess what it says about toasting ? No not Dr Alimantando, I mean as in cheers..the PAGANS began doing it as a form of libation to the GODS!!!PAGAN PRAYER, NATE!! Tell the boys to hold the front page...no more toasts to retiring Bethelites for 40 years of devoted service!! Hell....whilst were at it we may as well sack 'em too!...yes, Nate I know you love "Best Dressed Chicken in Town" but I mean the OTHER toas...oh never mind (sigh)"
 +1 / -0
talesin
talesin 21 days ago

The idea of God itself is a pre-eminent pagan concept. The primitive folk explanation for the reason of the world's being is that a god made it and us.
BAZINGA! gotta love that one. A JW would reply "But Israelites descended directly from Adam, and they worshipped Jehovah back then". arrggghhh!
Puppy, that was a great point. Here's to Jesus! *clink*
 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 21 days ago

''Puppy, that was a great point. Here's to Jesus! *clink* ''
ME TOO!!! Here's to Jesus!!!! * CLINK*
 +1 / -0
OutsiderLookingIn
OutsiderLookingIn 21 days ago

That's interesting, One Eyed Joe. I didn't mean to diminish your experience by any means. Both reactions are definitely possible. As I'm learning, the Watchtower gets you coming and going. They have the true believers (in the GB) and the unsure but guilt ridden follow along. It's such a shame.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 21 days ago

Great comments and very varied. It would be good to know if there has been a strategy behind the contradictory stances such as Pinatas.
The 2007 article is so unusually presented, I would love to know the intentions of the person that wrote it. It seems like a writer that is turning apostate wants to get some people thinking, but that is probably unlikely since the article needs to go through an editing and approval process.
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
the watchtower 2007 feb 15 pp.30-31 explains why jehovah's witnesses are not to toast.
what is astounding is that for each point they then go on an explain why the point is irrelevant, yet still conclude toasting is wrong.
what did people think when reading this?



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JW Teacher Sues School District For Being Fired Over Valentin's Day
by Bangalore 25 days ago 20 Replies latest 24 days ago   watchtower bible
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Bangalore
Bangalore 25 days ago

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/25/suit-teacher-sacked-for-not-throwing-valentines-day-party/
A former public elementary school teacher who is a Jehovah’s Witness has filed a lawsuit against the suburban Detroit school district where she used to work because, she claims, school officials ordered her to organize a classroom Valentine’s Day party and then sacked her because she refused.
People who belong to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, a millenarian Christian sect, do not celebrate Valentine’s Day. Thus, the teacher, Yvonne Lemmons, is suing for religious discrimination, reports Michigan Live.
The defendant in the lawsuit is the Southfield Public School District in Southfield, Mich.
Lemmons, 56, says in her lawsuit that she had been a fourth-grade teacher at MacArthur University Academy, a public magnet school, for 10 years and had faced no issues concerning her religious beliefs prior to the Valentine’s Day party kerfuffle.
“She’s really a good woman devoted to teaching students,” Kathy Bogas, an attorney representing Lemmons, told Michigan Live. “Her abilities were never questioned until she challenged this directive.”
According to the lawsuit, on Feb. 12, 2014 — a Wednesday — the principal at MacArthur University Academy instructed Lemmons to throw an in-class Valentine’s Day party.
Lemmons refused, citing her status as a Jehovah’s Witness.
In the past, Bogas noted, parents of the students in Lemmons’s classes organized Valentine’s Day parties.
It’s not clear what was different about 2014. The lawsuit doesn’t say, and the school district would not comment on the lawsuit.
In any case, Lemmons did not show up for work on the day of the party — presumably Friday, Feb. 14, 2014.
Then, in June 2014, she was sacked.
Lemmons believes her dismissal is directly related to her refusal to organize be any part of the Valentine’s Day party.
“Defendant rejected all the Plaintiff’s suggestions that would have permitted students to have a holiday celebration without Plaintiff violating her religious beliefs,” the teacher’s court pleading states.
Lemmons and her attorneys argue that the school district’s refusal to accommodate her genuine religious belief and her subsequent job loss amount to illegal religious discrimination.
The lawsuit lists no specific dollar amount.
Lemmons has found work at an unnamed charter school since she was laid off.
Jehovah’s Witnesses object to Valentine’s Day because they seek a restoration of their notion of first-century Christianity. Valentine’s Day involves Cupid — the Greek god of erotic love — and one or more possibly martyred, third-century Roman saints named Valentinus.
Other holidays that Jehovah’s Witnesses spurn include Halloween. There’s no love for the Easter Bunny, either, because said bunny is, of course, a rabbit, and thus “a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility,” according to the official Jehovah’s Witnesses website.
It’s not clear how Lemmons handled Halloween parties in her classroom, if they occurred.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses website declares that there are 8,220,105 Jehovah’s Witnesses in the world. This figure includes Prince.
The Notorious B.I.G. and President Dwight D. Eisenhower were reportedly raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses. (RELATED: Gloria Steinem Just Got Her Rap Name In Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s Chambers)

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/25/suit-teacher-sacked-for-not-throwing-valentines-day-party/#ixzz4098jXth9



Bangalore


 
cofty
cofty 25 days ago

Surely these sort of issues arise for teachers multiple times every year. Perhaps it was the last straw?

 +2 / -0
cognac
cognac 25 days ago
Sucks to lose your career over religious discrimination. Wonder how many people that got d'ffed lost their careers because all their work affiliations were JWs...
 +9 / -0
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 25 days ago

Here's one supreme court ruling: In Hobbie v. Unemployment Appeals Commission of Florida the Court held unconstitutional Florida’s denial of unemployment benefits to a person who had been fired from her retail sales job because she had joined the Seventh Day Adventist Church and was no longer available for work on her Sabbath, which ran from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. In an 8-1 decision, the Court held this case to be controlled by Sherbert and Thomas and thus subject to strict scrutiny. Finding no significant differences between those cases and this one, it reiterated that “the State may not force an employee `to choose between following the precepts of her religion and forfeiting benefits, ... and abandoning one of the precepts of her religion in order to accept work.’”
 
Landy
Landy 25 days ago
I somehowhow get the impression there's more to that story then the headline.
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 25 days ago

I'm astonished she lost her job over refusing to organize classroom activities for - of all festivities! - Valentine's Day.
Surely schools have no place in encouraging this?
Surely too there'd be other teachers who wouldn't see their role as including organizing classroom activities for this day?
I hope the authorities see common sense over this.
She failed to turn up to school on the Friday. Her case might have been stronger had she been present but refused to organise Valentine Day activities.
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 25 days ago

I am curious as to how this woman managed to teach in a secular school system for 10 years and only now her refusal to participate in holidays has become an issue.
What about all those other holidays besides Valentine's Day? How was her noncelebration of holidays handled in the past? Did her classes just have to opt out of coloring Easter eggs or Xmas trees? Did her classes go for 10 years sans celebrations or activities of any kind related to holidays?
I am with Cofty and Landy on this one. It sounds like a last straw. There seems like there is more to this than what is being presented.
I have an image in my head of all these kids sitting in their classroom on Valentine's Day with nothing to do while the rest of the school celebrated. A whole classroom doing what I was forced to do as a kid - sit and watch while everyone else got to participate and I didn't.
It's a conundrum. On one hand, it is reasonable to expect that a person should not have to violate their religious beliefs in their job, but on the other hand, it seems to be wrong that the students do not have the right to be free from the teacher's religious views.
The teacher's refusal to accomodate the classroom's freedom from her religion becomes a problem. At what point do the children's rights become paramount over her rights?
I am grateful that neither of my children were unlucky enough to draw a JW teacher when they were going to school. I would have lost my mind.
 +6 / -1
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 25 days ago

So what did she do when Christmas rolls around?
There are many JW teachers and I've heard a few say they let their class plan the holiday parties, they just don't participate in it.
There was a case here in NYC about ten years ago when a teacher told a KIndergarten class there was no Santa Claus, I believe she was suspended for a while, or either lost her job. How dare a pompous Dub tell a bunch of five year olds there's no Santa Claus, like she could actually count that time or something.
 +8 / -0
EmptyInside
EmptyInside 25 days ago
I'm sure there was some way to work around it A few parents would help plan the parties in years past.

 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 25 days ago

This is where we end up when Government refuses to monitor religions and encourages each religious group to live in its own little world.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Religious people in The West should understand that if they choose to be public servants, then they're expected to get involved with things like Valentine's Day or Christmas. Take it or leave it ...
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 25 days ago

I disagree LoveUniHateExams. A teacher in a secular schooling system who identifies as Jewish or Muslim would not be expected to participate in Easter and/or Christmas activities.
As others have said, what is unknown is why pressure was put on this teacher over Valentine's Day (arguably not developmentally appropriate for school-age children!) after all her years of teaching at thew school - and why the refusal issue had not arisen earlier say with Christmas and / or Easter activities.
 +1 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 25 days ago

@Steve2
Yeah, you're probably right. The schooling system is secular.
It still speaks volumes that a JW teacher would have nothing to do with Valentine's Day, and is suing the school.
Religious people need to integrate into Western society, IMO.
 +1 / -0
Saintbertholdt
Saintbertholdt 24 days ago
I think the school board was just stupid. This could have been resolved without issue.
 
Clambake
Clambake 24 days ago

Oh for FFS. Valentines day is purely a hallmark holiday.
It's amazing the mental gymnastics a jw has to do to be offended by something Iike valentine's day while completely ignoring the wts history of doctrinal flip flops and failed prophecies. I call bullshit.
Jws are just narsastic trolls whose only pleasure in life is to piss people off.
Kind of like a certain poster here.
 +1 / -0
Clambake
Clambake 24 days ago

I know this jw who goes from job to job getting canned for leaving watchtowers in the coffee room at work or quits at the first hint his job might interfere with field service or an assembly. He is nearly 40 and still lives at home.
Man this religion sure makes you a loser.
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 24 days ago

clambake: Valentines day is purely a hallmark holiday
"Saint Valentine (Latin: Valentinius), officially Saint Valentine of Rome, is a widely recognized third-century Roman saint commemorated on February 14 and associated since the High Middle Ages with a tradition of courtly love."




 
dubstepped
dubstepped 24 days ago

cognac: 6 hours agoSucks to lose your career over religious discrimination. Wonder how many people that got d'ffed lost their careers because all their work affiliations were JWs...



Where's the "love" button when you need it? "Like" doesn't begin to describe how I feel about you bringing up this point. I knew two people close to me that were both employed by witnesses in my congregation that lost their job due to DF'ing. I never even thought about it this way until you mentioned it. Damn, those jerks want control of everything and they want it all their way. I do agree that this person shouldn't be canned for her religious beliefs, but it should apply across the board, not just when dubs find it suits them.
 +1 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 24 days ago

@OC
Your information may be correct but we're talking about a teacher that was let go because she wouldn't organize a Valentine's Day party for her class. The school wasn't forcing her to celebrate Valentine's Day, just let the kids she taught have a go.
It would have been heart-shaped cards and possibly love letters. No biggie.
 +1 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 24 days ago




"Defendant rejected all the Plaintiff's suggestions that would have permitted students to have a holiday celebration without Plaintiff violating her religious beliefs,' the suit says.
Lemmons did not show up to work on the day of the party. The district soon laid her off effective June 30, 2014, which
Lemmons filed a charge of discrimination with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission alleging discrimination.
Bogas said the EEOC investigated and found "reasonable cause" Lemmons was discriminated against based on her religion, but the dispute could not be resolved. Lemmons received a right to sue order from the EEOC in October 2015 and filed the suit in U.S. District Court Jan. 4.
The Principal created a problem when there wasn't one before. Hope she wins her law suit. By the way there's no dollar amount specified.
 +2 / -0
average joe
average joe 24 days ago

I love how some people read this article and go i think there is more to the story... based on what information?? I hope you find yourselves in a situation where everyone says there is more to the story and what did you do wrong. That's how people are these days letting their imaginations run wild with NO PROOF at all always trying to imply things with no evidence whatsoever. Its disgusting really.
Jw or no jw Schools should be worried about education and not wasting time and our money on all this other crap imho.
jw or no jw The school or anyone else should not force someone to do something against their religion.... end of story.
We do not know that the kids were sitting there all alone but we do know its highly freakin unlikely! The school should have and likely did make arrangements for the class. How do we know? The jw informed the school she wouldnt be participating in valentines day. Therefore, The school made other arrangements which IS NOT HARD TO DO for the students who were well taken care of I am sure. Its not hard to find a staff member to throw a valentines party. I dont give a flip about valentines day and dont see much purpose in children being part of this "romantic" holiday or helping our fat american children to become diabetics because of commercialism.
She was a teacher for many years and offered to help the school in other ways according to the article. If after so many years of dealing with holidays she was only just now fired it is most likely due to new administration that doesnt like her faith. I doubt she acted any differently then she did any of her many other years as a teacher regarding holidays.
 +1 / -0

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JW Teacher Sues School District For Being Fired Over Valentin's Day
by Bangalore 25 days ago 20 Replies latest 24 days ago   watchtower bible
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Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 24 days ago

Clambake;
''I know this jw who goes from job to job getting canned for leaving watchtowers in the coffee room at work or quits at the first hint his job might interfere with field service or an assembly. He is nearly 40 and still lives at home.
Man this religion sure makes you a loser.''
 Flag  Dislike
It can sure screw-up your life too.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/25/suit-teacher-sacked-for-not-throwing-valentines-day-party/.
a former public elementary school teacher who is a jehovah’s witness has filed a lawsuit against the suburban detroit school district where she used to work because, she claims, school officials ordered her to organize a classroom valentine’s day party and then sacked her because she refused.. people who belong to the jehovah’s witnesses, a millenarian christian sect, do not celebrate valentine’s day.
thus, the teacher, yvonne lemmons, is suing for religious discrimination, reports michigan live.. the defendant in the lawsuit is the southfield public school district in southfield, mich.. lemmons, 56, says in her lawsuit that she had been a fourth-grade teacher at macarthur university academy, a public magnet school, for 10 years and had faced no issues concerning her religious beliefs prior to the valentine’s day party kerfuffle..



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"I hope Disfellowshipped ones do not attend the Memorial"
by AFRIKANMAN 2 hours ago 6 Replies latest 36 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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AFRIKANMAN
AFRIKANMAN 2 hours ago

D---Head comment ...by someone called Jay Witness on that forum-
What a Smug bunch of Pharisees they breed !
"""It makes me feel odd to invite tons of worldly people who are obviously fornicators and idolaters and then not be able to even show a little love such as a "hello" to a disfellowshipped brother or sister. Does not compute mentally. Just sayin'
We should make the Memorial for baptized, active, approved members of JW.org in secret locations only. Less stress for me.
Jesus did not die for thier sins since they unrepentant and subsequently disfellowshipped.
 How do you handle the disfellowshipped at the Memorial? """"
http://forum.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/1358-i-hope-the-disfellowshipped-ones-do-not-attend-the-memorial/
 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow 2 hours ago

"Does not compute mentally."
No shit, Sherlock.
That is what is called "cognitive dissonance". What a perfect example.
Solution?
"secret locations only. Less stress for me."

 +2 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 2 hours ago

Let them go ahead and do that. Many people don't want to go to the memorial anyway.
Let them make it at a real secret location!🙄
 
OutsiderLookingIn
OutsiderLookingIn 2 hours ago

Yikes! There are no words  On one hand, it shows they feel some tension about their inconsistent behavior. Smiling in the face of "obvious" fornicators and idolaters and refusing to say hello to someone because of their own man-made rules. But it's highly offensive to say who Jesus died and didn't die for. It's the sick who need a doctor, not people who think they have it all together.
As for the Memorial being a closed event for active, approved members of their club, they can keep it. As a never dub, I don't think I could sit idly by as a roomful of "God's own people" reject the sacrifice Jesus made. Sorry, my schedule's all booked.
 +2 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe an hour ago
I don't know... That post almost seems like a parody/satire to me...
 
Sabin
Sabin an hour ago

Yes but did you read one of the comments LOL
"Our current J.W. policy says we should continue to not acknowledge their presence once they do show up."
" It is good for them not to forget the love from which they have been banned."
Can you believe that some idiot wrote that, i have given myself a tummy ache from laughing.
 
Listener
Listener 36 minutes ago
My guess Sabin is, that as the JW Administrator, he is subtly trying to wake people up.
 

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Strange people you have studied WT and Bible with.
by kaik an hour ago 2 Replies latest 11 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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kaik
kaik an hour ago

When I look back into era when I conducted bible studies I recall several nice people, but also weird and strange. My last bible study was with couple who were the new capitalists; people who earned a lot of money often by illegal means. I am sure they were dangerous, but I have not perceived that way. The couple eventually helped me to move away from WT cult, and was able to get a job through them in international corporation that was opening office in the capital city. I stayed friends with them for couple years afterwards. I kind feel funny now when I told to them that Armageddon will be arriving shortly. That was more than 20 years ago.
I also conducted study with politically active Nazi sympathizer. His family were right wing extremists where grandpa was a member of Slovak Nazi guard or SS unit during WWII. I felt rather uneasy to deal with self confessed Jew-hater, and I ended the study. The most beneficial study I had was with my Jewish coworker. It started accidentally as I was careful never discuss religion with people I work(ed). Once in the local business trip, we due weather ended in small countryside monastery take cover from the reign. There was a mass, and I and my Jewish coworker stroke conversation on religion. We eventually studied together and he brought me several interesting, antiquated books on OT. Nevertheless, we did not get anything and my elder told me that Jews are cursed and thus condemned to die in Armageddon. Several people in my KH had deep antisemitic convictions as the Nazi guy I studied at the same time and shared their universal dislike toward Jews.
To you, who was the strangest person you ever studied Bible/WT publication with?

 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 42 minutes ago

. His family were right wing extremist where grandpa was a member of Slovak Nazi guard or SS unit during WWII.
Dear god Kaik, am I right in thinking you are Czech? Hungarian? Either way it doesn't bare thinking about what Nazi Grandpa got up to during WW2. Not to be upsetting anyone but the local Nazi sympathizers - Hungarian Arrow cross? the French the Ukrainians the Lithuanians were terrible ! were the Czech Nazis the same? Oh my god Liddice! Anyway - the locals always seemed to be so much worse than the Germans...oh so willing to do their dirty work. You were right to run a mile!!!
Getting back to the OP I had one, not weird exactly ... a young- ish girl whose boyfriend came to sit in. He would offer drinks..tea whatever, and say " bob's biscuits" but not once, like 20 times!. Then he would say it a couple more times when the study began listen a while ..say it again and leave ....now I look back he may have had Tourettes syndrome.
Bobs biscuits!!! The funny thing is I can't stop saying it myself now sometimes when I give out biscuits! Its stuck in my head! Instead of me passing him a meme he's given me one!
 
kaik
kaik 11 minutes ago

I am Czech born. Slovakia was German ally and was independent during WWII from what happened in the Czech lands. Slovakia had own guards Hlinka which was fascist military organization that killed thousands of people in the countryside. Slovakia itself was not occupied by Germany until August 30, 1944 when the government attempted to switch side once Red Army arrived. In occupied Czech territory, there was no Czech SS due personal order from Adolf Hitler. Of course there were Nazi sympathizers and wanted to create their own Saint Wenceslas unit, but they were kicked from Berlin because Hitler insisted that no Czech will ever wear SS uniform. At the end of the WWII he changed mind, but by then, they were not enough people interested to join. These who wanted to be in SS generally joined Slovak or Ukrainian units.
The guy I studied was hard core Nazi as was his entire family. It was weird to sit at family table with bible and WT publication while his grandpa was in armchair with picture of him in his youth in Nazi uniform. I had about four bible visits, but I got spooked out, because the guy I studied with (he was very interested in WT and liked the prospect of mass genocide in Armageddon) was too dangerous. It was just really weird experience, and I really liked Jews; and they were dreaming that they will get rid of them once for good (with the rest of the undesirables). My father served in military and was stationed in Slovakia in the 1950's and 60's, and he told me that some of his senior staff there were former Fascists and one was ex Arrow from Hungarian speaking part of Slovakia (part that was ceded during WWII to Hungary). All of them became a good communists in the 50's under Stalin, but a few were exemplary executed in 1958 once their Nazi past came out at the time my father was stationed there.

What hit me at that time with that family was how close were JW mentally in antisemitism with them. In my hometown there was once thriving Jewish community. Once I was with sister doing field service and we walked by former Jewish ghetto. This sister points to the cemetery and she said not of these MF will get resurrected because they are Jesus-killer and were eternally condemned to death. That moment I wanted to slap her, because in my life, I met many great Jews and I eventually married one.

 

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Geoffrey Jackson quote
by Labate 3 days ago 12 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Labate
Labate 3 days ago

Many posters quote Geoffrey Jackson as saying " it would be presumptuous" to say that the GB is Jehovah's sole spokesperson on earth.
What he actually said was that "it would SEEM to be quite presumptuous"
This is actually very clever, as adding "seem" to the sentence leaves the possibility that it isn't presumptuous to call themselves "Jehovah's sole channel".(at least in their eyes)
It's a well coached answer, giving the appearance of denial, while giving the GB a little "wiggle" room.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
 +9 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 3 days ago

Yes, good catch. It shifts the the whole meaning from we wouldn't say that to...we are god's spokesmen, although you might think it's presumptuous to say so.
We all know the GB desire worship for themselves too.
funny how his holiness paedophile protecting Jackson would allow someone to be DF'd for not believing he is god's very own spokesman, yet tries to make it look like he isn't in a courtroom setting.
The GB are filth.
 +6 / -0
Room 215
Room 215 3 days ago
it's a distinction without a difference...
 +1 / -1
alanv
alanv 3 days ago
He was asked the question Do you see yourself as God's spokespeople on earth today? If he answered honestly he would have said 'yes absolutely' He chose not to say that. By not saying that he was certainly being less than honest.
 +7 / -0
Witness 007
Witness 007 3 days ago
Sole jw.org "channel" with our all star cast of stars. Maybe they will sign a bible for you.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

With such a large audience, this would have been an ideal way to announce to the world that following their organisation is the only way to salvation.
Instead, he dodged the question, or downplayed the significance of it.
What did Jesus say when Pilate asked him if he was a king? He replied decisively and said "you yourself are saying I am"
 +5 / -0
tiki
tiki 3 days ago
Kinda slimy, huh....
 +1 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 3 days ago

It was a simple question which required a straightforward "yes" or "no" answer, nothing in between!
 +4 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 3 days ago
Ol geoffrey had the chance to be courageous in his standing......but failed, he must be taking lessons from Löesh. Under pressure both of them buckled. Wimps!
 +5 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 days ago

He said that in such a way that he could then say, well he was talking about others in the Org.
It was worded in a way he could spin it if he wanted.
 +1 / -0
Gilbeath Haaraloth
Gilbeath Haaraloth 3 days ago
Well, he is just taking a page from the great spin master himself, Jehovah............... who supposedly inspired a book that started out with lots of war, hate, bigotry, sexism, intolerance etc and turned into the man with love flowing from his garments but not without adding lots of confusion through thousands of various verses which can be interpreted any way you want. We don't even know how to pronounce his real name.

 +3 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 days ago

The WTBTS legal department and $$$ write the script for Jacko and Co. Jacko is no less dishonest than Rubber-face Lett in his "apostate lies and dishonesty" quote.
Lett paints the picture that apostates are saying that "Jehovah's Witnesses" as a group, are permissive of child abuse. Spin 101.
DD
 +1 / -0
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 3 days ago

When he was asked about the pedophiles among jehobers witnesses he said: "that would seem to be quite sumptuous" or did I hear that wrong?
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +2 / -0

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Faith and Lies.
by sparrowdown 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparrowdown
sparrowdown 3 days ago

If you were hooked up to a polygraph machine when you were still an asleep, kool-aid drinking dub and asked if you agree 100% with every single WT teaching (asked as individual questions and collectively), would you have "passed" with no signs of deception?
I know, I definitely would not have "passed" such an interegation. I would have tripped up on questions about blood, DFing and non JWs being marked for destruction just to name a few.
This realization caused me to see how I was just lying to myself about what I believed and wondered how many JWs would show no signs of deception when queried on their faith? I'm not debating the accuracy of polygraphs since they only measure physiological responses which can be caused for all sorts non- deceptive reasons, just generally speaking that's all.
So what does this say about my (then) faith and belief?
It was not real even though I thought it was and was willing to die for it!!
Any thoughts?
 +3 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 3 days ago
Yes
 
Lostwun
Lostwun 3 days ago

Im sure my readings would be all over the place too. Blood was never a big concern of mine. It was always the theocratic aspect that bothered me: the keeping of field service time, the climbing of ranks in the org, the taking of every word written in the publications as coming from god himself and stuff of that sort. Growing up I never received satisfying answers when I brought up these issues. it was always drilled in us kids to never question authority, be obedient and be a good little submissive girl.
I think we are constantly told to "make the truth our own" but really for them its not about us having our own faith its about shutting your pie hole and believing whatever the hell they tell you to believe. Oh and don't forget if you do you'll be blessed!
Lost
 +5 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 3 days ago
I probably would have passed hands down.
 +1 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 3 days ago
I would not have passed. I always had serious doubts especially about the Society and it's doctrine's how they mixed grooming and dress issue's into their Dogma.
 +1 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 3 days ago
I had accepted good news
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 3 days ago

Is it even possible to be in 100% hand on heart agreement with such a contradictory inconsistent belief sytem?
I now find it ridiculous that that is what the GB expect. Mind control at it's best.
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 3 days ago

I'd have passed 10-15 years ago before the doubt started to creep in.
(Really sad that it took so long to awaken fully, isn't it!)

Doc

 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 days ago
I never got the ban on birthdays, their logic seemed a little weak. I also never understood the need for all those meetings, field service, study, etc. As a working mom I sat down and did the math and figured if I did everything I was supposed to I would have fifteen minutes in the week left to call my own. I kind of gave up even trying at that point, so obviously I didn't totally believe in it, although it would be another ten years before I left completely.
 +1 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 3 days ago
Never pass........i was too much of a rebel.......a rebel with good reason to be. Facial hair thing, holidays, birthdays, .etc
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 3 days ago
If I took it now, I'm sure I'd fail miserably!!
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago
My readings over the headshipl thing would have been off the chart! I swore I would never get married because of it and as my Dad has never been a( baptised )JW it was never an issue for me at home... I also thought the grooming rules were BS too, fully cognizant that the Watchtards are stuck in 50's America ( the rubbish bit not the cool Jimmy Dean Marlon Brando bit!)
 +1 / -0
Stirred
Stirred 3 days ago

No I would not. C.D. Was always gling on to varying degrees until it finally exploded and I could not take it anymore.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

I would have passed, because anything I wasn't sure about would have been justified in my mind as "the brothers of the GB know best"...
So I would have accepted without questioning anything taught....
 
Half banana
Half banana 3 days ago

I wore a beard, didn't ever believe in 1914 and neither did I think the Devil was real.
Then I thought later, well if there is no Devil, where is the evidence for God? This was my turning point in escaping from the Borg mentality.
 
Conanthebeliever
Conanthebeliever 3 days ago

If I was hooked up to a machine, prior to my realization yesterday, I think it depends on the questions asked.
I doubt I would've passed on the blood issue, and if I knew how bad disfellowshipping was, I would also of failed this.
I found out yesterday the real 'truth'-after 7 months of study, I am so glad I found this forum. I was going to get baptized soon, and I know I have saved myself from a horrible life-I could not take the watching, constant worry that someone will tell on you for something you may not of even done, and not being able to question things would of definitely left me being disfellowshipped if I was baptized.
I am also glad you pointed out you are not debating the accuracy of polygraph tests, as we know how they work, anxiety could trigger a 'lie' detected.
But, depending on the questions asked, I definitely would not of passed 100%, now, the likelyhood of me passing would be a zero as I find more and more information, kindly provided by members on here for me to read.
All the best, Conan.
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

Thank you to all those who took the time to respond. An odd question I know but I thought worth pondering because this is a belief system that people are so hopelessly dependant upon that they are willing to disown family and friends to protect it. Even die for it, or let their loved ones die for it!
I don't think it is my doubts that will wake someone up but their own.
This excersize could help someone begin to see several things (internally, of course they would probably never admit it to your face) such as they themselves are not 100% in.
At the end of the day most if not all JWs are basically suffering from consensus trance not belief.
 
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 2 days ago
Yes and you make a very good point. It really is a cult.

 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 2 days ago

Pass 110%
Unless the line of questioning was designed to create doubt about scientific topics (evolution, 6000 year human history)
 +1 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 days ago

I converted to JW as a young adult in his 20's, but was exposed to it from a JW mother while growing up. It is the only religion I knew. Dramatic circumstances in my life allowed me to completely embrace the JW lifestyle and doctrines. There was a chance of me waking up early as a study when I accompanied the brother studying with me on a call. The guy asked about storing up your own blood for a surgery and I could see nothing wrong with that, but then the elder tore into it about how you would have to obey the scriptures that say to pour it on the ground. I questioned him later about the literalness of that and trying to compare it to allowing your blood to be drawn for testing purposes. I wasn't quite satisfied with the answers, but I learned to stuff my problems down deep.
For the first 7 years I was in deep, never questioning anything the society said. Then 1995 came. Some serious pioneers who read ahead in the magazines and break out all the references asked me about that major change to "generation." I was a brand new elder and I had to break out all the stuff, because I hadn't been doing all that. I was rather disturbed by the change. I asked other elders about it and one comment sticks out from a much older brother. "They change things sometimes."
So my disagreement with them started growing. Before that, I already realized the double standard of getting connected people/families out of trouble where others wouldn't get the same. I already was telling people not to tell the elders everything, even though I was an elder, but to stop doing whatever and pray to Jehovah.
So 8 years in, I would not have passed the polygraph. And it got worse each and every year after that.
What it could say about you is that you were fully believing that you must check it out for yourself and verify truth vs. lies. It's what the Bereans were told. You were not just going with blind obedience. But being in a deceptive mind-control cult, it was sometimes difficult to know what to do, what to believe.
 +1 / -0

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Faith and Lies.
by sparrowdown 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago
OnTheWayOut - You make a good case for the cumulative effect personal doubt can have on someones belief sysyem. If I ever chat with a JW now I try and ask questions that will cause them to reflect on their own personal doubts rather than tell them what mine are, which I think is a mistake I made early on in my waking up journey. Thanks for the input.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

Maybe a subtle comment like "what teachings or issues are YOU waiting on clarification from the Governing Body for?"
That opens it to them and suggests that EVERYONE has something they are not comfortable with...
It may get them talking....
"oh I have always wondered about such and such..." and you can just patiently agree and perhaps mention ONE point you think is "unusual" too....
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 days ago


This realization caused me to see how I was just lying to myself about what I believed and wondered how many JWs would show no signs of deception when queried on their faith?
Some JWs can`t explain why they believe,what they believe..They just believe..
.
.*I`m Not Getting Any Reading*
........**It`s Almost Like*.....................*In The New System*

........*HE HAS NO BRAIN*.....................*I Can Pet Lions*

........................Image result for polygraph test
 

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Topic Summary
if you were hooked up to a polygraph machine when you were still an asleep, kool-aid drinking dub and asked if you agree 100% with every single wt teaching (asked as individual questions and collectively), would you have "passed" with no signs of deception?.
i know, i definitely would not have "passed" such an interegation.
i would have tripped up on questions about blood, dfing and non jws being marked for destruction just to name a few.



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by Divergent 4 months ago
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by Terry 3 months ago
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by Truthexplorer 2 months ago



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Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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Terry
12
PAROUSIA: The Watchtower's IRON BALLOON
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
the iron balloon: parousia.

“up, up and away in my beautiful.

.balloon,” is the lyric of a popular song from the 60’s.. it captures an emotional exhilaration lifting us from everyday life way up into the sky away from all our cares and woe.. .

Island Man
Island Man
Terry
a day ago
pleaseresearch
6
Undercover meeting.
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
i think this is by far the best way to reach jws and wake them up.

to go to a kh where nobody knows you and seem interested but raise questions either before or after the meeting.

if it only helps one person, it's worth it.. some may say it's sneaky etc... but no way can you talk to a brother on the ministry in a negative way.

Beth Sarim
NewYork44M
stuckinarut2
2 days ago
Da.Furious
9
JW TV Monthly Broadcast - 3rd unofficial Meeting!
by Da.Furious in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
did any one notice that the monthly broadcast on jw tv is being treated like a meeting similar to the old book study arrangement?.

at our kh, in uk, all congregations meeting at the hall have a monthly arrangement for this.

some have a group arrangement and alternate between family homes to watch the broadcast and some use the kh on weekends.. this arrangement in our congregation, at least, is being treated as a meeting for each of the groups.

Da.Furious
darkspilver
Vidiot
12 hours ago
Carol1111
2
Old Nick
by Carol1111 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
a friend had some jw's knock at his door and satan was discussed.

my friend kept referring to satan as 'old nick'.

the jw's seemed rather upset by this.

punkofnice
Phizzy
3 days ago
oppostate
92
Heil Trump. Sieg Heil.
by oppostate in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
crowd looking like they're doing the heil hitler salute to trump when he asks for a pledge and swear their support while calling for broadening torture laws.

trump asks backers to swear their support, vows to broaden torture laws.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/05/politics/donald-trump-florida-pledge-torture/.

LoveUniHateExams
Village Idiot
juandefiero
3 hours ago
Labate
12
Geoffrey Jackson quote
by Labate in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
many posters quote geoffrey jackson as saying " it would be presumptuous" to say that the gb is jehovah's sole spokesperson on earth.. what he actually said was that "it would seem to be quite presumptuous".

this is actually very clever, as adding "seem" to the sentence leaves the possibility that it isn't presumptuous to call themselves "jehovah's sole channel".

(at least in their eyes).

Gilbeath Haaraloth
DATA-DOG
eyeuse2badub
3 days ago
deegee
47
Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?
by deegee in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

Vidiot
deegee
deegee
10 hours ago
Doug Mason
6
Disconfirmed expectations
by Doug Mason in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
the person may have prepared himself psychologically for an event that never eventuates, and, worse still, may have even made public his predictions about the event.

what happens when an important prophecy fails and dissonance is aroused between what was predicted and what actually occurred is described in the classic field study carried out by festinger, riecken and schachter (1956).

in the mid-1950s mrs marion keech, a suburban housewife, began to receive messages from outer space.

Vidiot
GrreatTeacher
slimboyfat
11 hours ago
Sabin
2
Actions speak louder than words
by Sabin in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
gday to you all.

i have had a thought i would like to share with you.

i cannot remember who it was, but i believe it has been mentioned (maybe paul grundy) that if you wish to null & void your baptism because you were so young when it took place that the wtbts will not allow it if you have been participating in the believes & practises of the religion when you were older & able to make a decision of your own free will.

TTWSYF
zophar
3 days ago
sparrowdown
22
Faith and Lies.
by sparrowdown in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
if you were hooked up to a polygraph machine when you were still an asleep, kool-aid drinking dub and asked if you agree 100% with every single wt teaching (asked as individual questions and collectively), would you have "passed" with no signs of deception?.

i know, i definitely would not have "passed" such an interegation.

i would have tripped up on questions about blood, dfing and non jws being marked for destruction just to name a few.

sparrowdown
stuckinarut2
OUTLAW
2 days ago
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