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Word spreading back home
by BeautifulMind 16 hours ago 18 Replies latest 11 hours ago   jw experiences
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BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 16 hours ago

You all know how much jws loooove to gossip. So...I just finished a email conversation with one of my self-righteous, super jw relatives back home. Let me preface this conversation by saying this relative is someone I don't communicate with, at all. I haven't talked to/seen him in over 10 years and it was very minimal before that. I have no idea who told him. I didn't ask, don't care.
1st emaIl: he says he didn't want to be "presumptuous" (yeah right) but heard that me and my family are no longer going to the hall and asked if were we ok. My takeaway - why do you care, we don't even communicate?! And why ask if we are ok? does something have to be wrong? Of course, I know why but it's still a "presumptuous" thing to ask.
My response: no, we are not going. We decided it wasn't for us anymore and we changed our minds. (Seems simple enough right? I was of course, wrong).
2nd email: he "presumptuously" tells me how much he knows me and that I couldn't possibly have decided this on my own after all Jehovah had done for me and asked who I had been talking to. My takeaway - the audacity of me to use my own brain and actually think!!! How presumptuous of me lol!
My final response: I told him this was not a discussion. We made this decision on our own and I told him I don't really understand why that is so hard for him to believe (actually, I know exactly what it was so hard for him). I then finished the conversation asking him to respect our decision and I wasn't going to discuss it any further.
conclusuon: did he respect my decision??🤔🤔 of course not!! But I don't feel all that well today (sinuses kicking my a$$) and have no more energy to give to this nonsense. I have 2 toddlers to chase around the house all day and in general, better things to spend my time on. so I didn't respond to his presumptuous, judgemental emails after that. let him wait for a response that's not coming. Ridiculous that they really think it's ok and their right to interrogate you on your life.
 +25 / -0
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 16 hours ago

May I ask how you are related?
Interesting, keep us posted.

 +3 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 16 hours ago

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. It was also a relative and we had no (zero, nadda) relationship with this person.
The interrogation is incredible!
You did the right thing. You know how to drive a JW crazy? DO NOT give them anything (no gossip) . They thrive on gossip. They will just make up sh*t anyway. I think they actually enjoy the thrill of the kill. Let em enjoy that ride.
Sounds like you have your hands full with little ones. Enjoy em...they grow fast.
 +12 / -0
Spiral
Spiral 16 hours ago

I've had a similar experience twice. I just delete any emails from them without response.
Funny how how the simple concept of "we've made our [own] decision, it's not for us" is so unfathomable to them.

 +15 / -0
BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 16 hours ago

Harvard Illiterate 411. One of my younger 1st cousins.
Exactly ToesUp. I think it upset him when I said it wasn't a discussion. No discussion = no opportunity to convince/guilt me into going back.
 +9 / -0
BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 16 hours ago
Spiral - that's what I'm doing going forward. No time for negative energy
 +9 / -0
freddo
freddo 16 hours ago

You all know your particular situations but what if they might be waking up and testing the water?
I know you have to tread carefully and all that but is there a non-committal non-threatening way you might enquire?
 +4 / -0
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 15 hours ago
I think you gave up too much info, not his business, quite obvious why he was asking, he could hardly wait to get your answers and spread around what you told him.
 +6 / -0
BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 15 hours ago

Freddo - no chance this was someone trying to wake up. If I revealed to rest of the emails he sent me it would be obvious. Trust me.
shirleyW - yes, it was very obvious!! But I'm not into ducking and dodging questions. And I really don't have an issue letting people know I'm not going anymore if they ask. I just don't think they need every little detail. He asked, I let him know exactly what I wanted him to know and cut it off when he started to be disrespectful.
 +9 / -0
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 15 hours ago
BM thanks. I was just curious to see how close of a family member would do this to you to compare to my situation.

 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 15 hours ago

I then finished the conversation asking him to respect our decision and I wasn't going to discuss it any further.
Well said and played, if people don't respect you, then don't replicate by respecting them back, that's my position on JW family members.

Some of that can come from real sincerity though, in that the WTS mentally imposes the suggestion that everything outside of "their" organization is evil controlled by Satan's evil forces etc. so is it really surprising how and why JWS think and act when they hear someone who was once involved leave ?

The provocation of fear is large part of the WTS indoctrination process that intentionally lures people into the organization as well intentionally keeps them there for the WTS own means, purpose and sustainability.

 +2 / -0
Lostwun
Lostwun 15 hours ago

BM excellent response. Like someone already mentioned giving them no reason or information drives them crazy.
When I confronted the two elders I caught stalking out my place, one of them literally begged me for my reasons of why I no longer attend. He just had to know! When he saw he couldnt get an answer it fustrated the hell out of him.
They need you to say something so they can incriminate you and hang you with your own words.
You handled yourself well in not giving your nosey cousin any info. Of course they're gonna make up stuff anyway but you knew that already. Stick to your guns! We got your back as well!
Lost-wun
 +10 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 15 hours ago

I think you gave up too much info, not his business,
My first thought was that I hope you didn't give up too much info (TO US HERE) that would "blow" your fade if read by loyal Dubs that might know you (assuming that is what you're hoping to do).
Otherwise, great replies.
What a great example of manifesting self-control, Brother, that you just didn't say F&^K OFF.
Doc
The greatest revenge is living a happy & successful life!
 +5 / -0
steve2
steve2 14 hours ago
yy
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 14 hours ago

I had been through similar things.
Gossip spread so fast, across the whole country. I had a conversation with a few family members, and the whole rest of my large family quickly disappeared off all social media, and ceased speaking to me.
And when they dig and pry about who told you this and that. Or what you believe, or why you don't go to meetings anymore, just remember you are out of that shit now and its none of their business. You don't owe anyone any explanation. All I will say is its personal, I am happier and healthier than ever, the end. Don't play their games anymore.
 +4 / -0
BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 14 hours ago

Lostwun - thanks!
DOC - we don't care anymore who knows we don't go lol!! it is what it is.
freemindfade - exactly!
 +3 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 13 hours ago

BeautifulMind:
It sounds like you are OUT with your immediate family and this is most important.
I assume you are not financially dependent on these relatives.
Enjoy your freedom from the JW religion and forget any non-essential people (whether they be relatives or friends) you never bother with anyway!
 +1 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 13 hours ago

You don't owe them any explanations, so you are right to refuse to respond. How presumptuous to think they know why or how you chose to leave. The JWs seem to have no boundaries, they think they have the right to know everything about you, when it is really none of their business.
No matter what you say you are wasting your time, as it won't convince them of anything, and will just invitee more intrusive questions.
Perhaps you can block their emails.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 11 hours ago

Simply amazing! Witnesses have no idea about appropriate boundaries!
The longer one is out of the witness bubble, the more clear it becomes about their lack of boundaries.
As DOC said, "the greatest revenge is to live a happy and successful life"
Apply that bible verse that says "an answer when mild turns away rage" and adapt it to "a brief mild answer turns away the discussion"
 +1 / -0

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jw family loves to ask df'd ones for money!
by Ghiagirl 2 hours ago 8 Replies latest 12 minutes ago   jw experiences
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Ghiagirl
Ghiagirl 2 hours ago
Well it finally happened! We have been waiting about a year for this, my dfd husbands family asked us for money. Even though his own father hasn't met our 8 month old son. And most of his brothers and sisters haven't as well. Makes me sick. So you saved no money because the new world is coming? Just rely on your kids to pay your bills each month! Don't get me wrong I would always help my family no matter what! But the nerve they have, with no shame too! Thinking we are in the wrong as always. I'm about to blow my brains out with the drama I get left and right. I can't believe I once thought it was the truth! It tears families apart. Yet they blame us, the ones going through constant heartache for the empty space in our lives. I thought it was getting easier. But it's still hard. If I can save anyone from making the mistake of getting baptized! Please. Don't do it. I'm not one to say all jws are bad. But what the organization turns people into is what makes me sick, so brain washed. So ignorant, so blind. Sorry this is a rant I am just so angry and so sad. I get told from my family my whole life I am a selfish person. Because I wanted to live my life my way? My sister told me she doesn't like the person I have become and we are not close because we have different views and opinions and I'm a selfish person. But I know I'm not....at least I don't think so. I feel psychically ill anytime I try to reason with these people. Family is family. It's that simple. With no religion there would be so many fewer issues! I'm sorry but I hate religion I hate it. I don't know what I believe. Just be a good person, honest respectful nonjudgmental accepting. I'm a good mother, good wife and good friend. I am happier with who I am today then who I was when I was stuck in that god damn cult.
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 2 hours ago
Tell your husband not to give them any money. They treat you like your dead until they need something. Say that to them. Ask them "why is God blessing us with money and you are poor? rub it in their faces. Tell them to go ask their new family the ones in the hall for money.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 hours ago

Wow!
Sorry to hear the stresses you are going through Ghiagirl!
The points you make are very true.
You know, if you end up helping them financially they could very well turn around and say:
"Jehovah took care of our needs by prompting our DFd family to give us money...Thank Jehovah!"
 +2 / -0
jhine
jhine 2 hours ago
I don't know what to say except l am sorry that you are going through this and rant away girl !
 Jan
 +1 / -0
Ghiagirl
Ghiagirl an hour ago
Yes we may end up helping. It's impossible to reason with these people. The fact they think there is nothing wrong with them asking for money is mind boggling. If we do it is a one time deal. But it kills us to even think about doing it.
 
sir82
sir82 an hour ago
Tell them that you'd love to help, but you are concerned about them losing Jehovah's favor by having dealings with "unrepentant ones" such as yourselves, and in the best interests of preserving their relationship with Jehovah, you respectfully decline.

 +1 / -0
Daniel1555
Daniel1555 an hour ago

If you help them you heap firy coals on them, to use bible language.
I would help them if their request is reasonable and be especially kind.
Tell them kindly that you are there for them and that they miss a great deal when they have no contact with you or their grandchild.
 +1 / -0
John Free
John Free an hour ago

Its shocking how the cult conditions its members to use the same mind control it espouses. Using emotional blackmail such as- 'I don't like the type of person you're becoming'- is the type of shockingly rude statement no normal person would utter. But mind control runs through the DNA of this cult. I'm glad you've found the strength not to believe this debased attempt at psychological coercion!
 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 12 minutes ago
Tell them to piss off! They won't appreciate it. It won't wake them up to the cult. They will only use you and then place you back in the trash bin they dug through for loose change. Sorry, I have no pity for them. Of course you could be the better person and help them but know that they WILL ONLY COME BACK FOR MORE. Don't think you can buy your family's loyalty or their genuine concern with money. If an 8 month old grandchild can't awaken their "Natural affection" money wont.

 

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Ghiagirl
7
jw family loves to ask df'd ones for money!
by Ghiagirl in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 2 hours ago
well it finally happened!

we have been waiting about a year for this, my dfd husbands family asked us for money.

even though his own father hasn't met our 8 month old son.

sir82
Daniel1555
John Free
an hour ago
Witness 007
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loaded gun under her car seat was picked up off the floor and the kid shot her in the back...the day before on facebook she boasted about his shooting skills.

what is wrong with this picture?

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Daniel1555
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an hour ago
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real oxford style debating.

http://intelligencesquaredus.org/.

i listen to them on my long walks and in the car.

goingthruthemotions
5
I asked my wife why the memorial was not on Nissan 14 in April, and why is it in March
by goingthruthemotions in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
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the initial conversation had to do with someone who has the ability to reason for them self's.

i than asked her.....why is the memorial in march and not in april when nissan 14 is?.

her response..."pray to jehovah for understanding.

jwfacts
Vanderhoven7
OrphanCrow
8 hours ago
ToesUp
14
Where's my invitation to the Memorial? What the hell!
by ToesUp in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 13 hours ago
a carload of jw's worked our street today.

obviously they are doing the invites to the memorial.

of course, we didn't answer.. 1 ring, 2 seconds at the door (that's all we get?

Lostwun
just fine
ToesUp
5 hours ago
BeautifulMind
18
Word spreading back home
by BeautifulMind in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 16 hours ago
you all know how much jws loooove to gossip.

so...i just finished a email conversation with one of my self-righteous, super jw relatives back home.

let me preface this conversation by saying this relative is someone i don't communicate with, at all.

LongHairGal
LisaRose
stuckinarut2
11 hours ago
helpmeout
11
March Broadcast - Remove the Rafter - Adjust Your attitude
by helpmeout in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 20 hours ago
if you have watched the march broadcast you will understand the topic title.

another propaganda piece intended to subtly blame the victim.

i would like to see them present a clip showing an arrogant self righteous elder interfering in the personal affairs of a family.

Listener
dontgimmeanyshit
stuckinarut2
5 hours ago
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The March JW broadcast, presented by paedophile enabler Geoffery Jackson
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all warm and fluffy this month after the utterly laughable 'bread' broadcast.

.

i'll always be grateful to the australian royal commission for allowing us to see this duplicitous, lying, creep, shown up as a snivelling, suck up, asshole, taken completely out of his self appointed authoritarian comfort zone.. anyway, a not too interesting broadcast i have to say..

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Terry
4
TALKING NONSENSE by using words attached to nothing
by Terry in Jehovah's Witnesses
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 a day ago
especially in listening to people who "believe" things (spirituality, faith, etc.

) do i hear words being used which are nonsense.. i'm a person who cherishes words in a weird, almost fetishistic way :)i discovered this quite young.

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Island Man
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its the begining of the end for jws in exjw websites i have found all these branch headquaters have closed down.

ireland.

estonia.

Divergent
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Scientology Expose: Katie Holmes & Leah Remini are each the cover story for celebrity mags (People & in Touch)
by Faithful Witness 4 months ago 3 Replies latest 4 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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Faithful Witness
Faithful Witness 4 months ago

Side by side, on the grocery store magazine display, I saw two celebrity magazines with cover stories about Scientology. I purchased both. I find it interesting, how similar this "church" is to the organization of the Watchtower.

I thought I'd share some of the interesting quotes from the articles, which are both mostly about Leah Remini's new book, Troublemaker: Surviving Hollywood and Scientology. Neither magazine's website seems to be featuring these stories now, (and I find myself wondering why I can't find them).
-----------------

From the cover of People Magazine (November 16, 2015):
(I found a cover image available on this blog, but couldn't find it on the People website) http://tvnewsandviews.com/2015/11/04/people-magazine-november-16-2015-leah-remini-my-escape-from-scientology/

Leah Remini: My Escape from Scientology
◦Cleaning hotel rooms for the church as a child
◦Grueling interrogations and fears for her family
◦Punished for disrupting Tom & Katie's wedding
◦PLUS Explosive new details from her tell-all book Troublemaker
From the 5-page article in People:
- "Everything happened slowly. Your indoctrination happens over a lifetime." (she was brought to Scientology by her mother at age 8. When Leah left Scientology, her family left with her).

- From a conversation Leah had with Nicole Kidman's children, Bella and Connor Cruise:
"How's your mom? Do you see her a lot?" she asked the kids.
"Not if I have a choice," Bella who was then 13, said, according to Remini. "She's a f---ing SP." (A "suppressive person" is someone viewed as hostile to the church).

- Leah: "In Scientology, there is no middle ground, so unless I was willing to leave my mother, my sister, my brother-in-law and all my friends, I had no other choice."
- When Leah finally reached her breaking point, she was "terrified that her husband, mom and other family members would have to 'disconnect' from her -- a practice of cutting off contact from someone declared hostile to Scientology."

Reactions from the church to her claims:
"It comes as no surprise that someone as self-absorbed as Leah Remini with an insatiable craving for attention would exploit her former faith as a publicity stunt," the church said in a statement, adding that she was "on the verge of being expelled for her ethical lapses," and detailing her alleged lies and misdeeds in statements on its website http://www.scientologynews.org/statements/abc-news/church-of-scientology-statement-leah-remini.html
This is one difference between the Watchtower and Scientology. Scientology publishes statements in response to those who challenge them.

-------------------

From the cover of inTouch Magazine (November 16, 2015):
(I haven't been able to find an image of this cover online, or any reference to it on intouchweekly.com)


Katie's Revenge on Tom
She humiliates him: marriage and Scientology secrets finally revealed
◦His meltdowns over cookie dough and a chipped mug!
◦Why baby Suri was left crying on the bathroom floor
◦Leah Remini joins Katie in exposing Tom's bizarre world
"Katie has been muzzled by her divorce agreement with Tom and has been forced to stay silent for years," says a source. "So speaking out now is huge."
The inTouch article, is mostly about Leah's book, but it does include an apology statement that Katie issued to Leah, and this statement from a Scientology insider: "Tom is furious with Katie because he knows, and the church knows, that she has a nondisclosure agreement. Katie agreed not to spill any secrets."
Some interesting highlights they share from Leah's book:
◦Leah claims Tom doesn't like John Travolta and Kirstie Alley.
◦Tom had a fit over cookie dough, berating a female assistant for improperly preparing a batch of cookie dough for him to bake with friends. "Get in the f---ing present time!" Leah says he screamed.
◦... and over a chipped mug: "You served me tea in a chipped mug? f---ing DB." - derogatory Scientology term that stands for "Degraded Being."
◦Sea Org guarded Tom's house, "to make sure nothing upset Tom, and if it did, to immediately report it to the church, specifically to (leader) David Miscaviage."
 +1 / -0
truthseekeriam
truthseekeriam 4 months ago

I'm reading Leah Remini's book right now and I definitely can understand her feelings as if it she were talking about JW's. Their terms may be different but the way they handle things are very similar.
At one point in her book she talks about comforting another "SP"(apostate) and how unlike most people, she understood her pain and what they had put her through. To explain it to someone outside the church would take months, and if you were to explain it to someone inside the church they probably wouldn't care, wouldn't want to hear about it, and would most likely write you up in a knowledge report for even discussing it."
That sure reminded me of what I went through.
 +2 / -0
mrmagic
mrmagic 4 months ago
Thanks for posting this. It is interesting to see the same patterns in other cults like Scientology and Seventh-Day Adventism. I've even seen it in business corporations (MLM's)

 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 months ago

Seems the more fundamentally wrong a religion is, the more batshit crazy it acts.
Sometimes, I think militant religious leaders acts so f**king crazy towards dissenters because - on some level - they themselves know it's all wrong, and just can't deal with it.
 +4 / -0

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A male Scientologist poses as a JW girl?
by Londo111 3 years ago 5 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

How Scientology changed the internet
By Dave Lee
Technology reporter, BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23273109
What do Wikipedia, Wikileaks, Anonymous and copyright law have in common? The answer is they have all been influenced by the Church of Scientology International (CSI), as it took on ex-members and critics who took their protests on to the internet. As the Church successfully removes another website, just how big an influence has Scientology had on the internet we all use?
Last month digital rights activists at the influential Electronic Frontiers Foundation (EFF) placed the Church of Scientology into their hall of shame over what it says were repeated acts against internet freedoms.
It was just the latest twist in the Church's long-running feud with "negative" Scientology content online, one that has lasted almost two decades.
Back in May 1994, at a time when most major organisations were yet to figure out how exactly to deal with the relatively unknown power of the internet, the Church's Elaine Siegel had a few ideas, outlined in a leaked email to "all Scientologists on the internet".
"I would like to ask your assistance in getting each one of you to post positive messages on the internet (at least once a week, more if you like), about Scientology," she wrote.
"If you imagine 40-50 Scientologists posting on the internet every few days, we'll just run the SP's [ex-members] right off the system.
"It will be quite simple, actually."
Or perhaps not.
'Censorship innovators'
Unsurprisingly, the Church of today is keen to distance itself from Ms Siegel's email.
"It is ancient history in terms of internet development," spokeswoman Karin Pouw told the BBC in a series of emails about the Church's relationship with the internet.
"The email in no way reflects or represents the Church's current relationships with IT professionals or our use of the internet to provide information about Scientology to anyone who seeks it."
She's right - the Church has moved on, instead seeking new ways to have "negative" content removed from the web.
"They're kind of innovators in finding ways to censor the internet," said Dr Martin Poulter from the University of Bristol.
Dr Poulter is a lead trainer for Wikimedia UK, the British arm of the non-profit organisation that looks after Wikipedia, and often edits its Scientology pages - something the Church is no longer able to do.
"Scientology was the first organisation to be officially banned from Wikipedia," he says, referring to the landmark decision in 2009.
"There were several different accounts making very similar contributions and advancing pro-Scientology lines, or deleting anti-Scientology stuff."
Dr Poulter's first experience with the Church's actions online came in the early 90s when he was browsing a newsgroup called alt.religion.scientology, a place where critics and ex-members were posting information on the Church.
"The reaction from the Church of Scientology was that it went really berserk," recalls Dr Poulter.
With the help of local authorities, houses belonging to newsgroup users across the US were raided, with computer equipment being seized for weeks on end.
"The days of the internet as a cosy, private, intellectual cocktail party are over," technology magazine Wired prophetically declared in 1995.
'Encourage tolerance'
Scientology officials remember those early days with a slightly different perspective.
"The Church at that time had been a pioneer in religious website development," said Ms Pouw, but she admitted to the BBC that there had been concern about hate speech.
So much so, the Church took internet service providers such as Netcom to court over users who were posting copyrighted works online in order to attack Scientology.
Netcom retaliated, saying it could not be expected to screen everything its users were posting - a defence now frequently utilised by large sites like YouTube.
Protest in New York
That row was one of several which led to the creation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), a US law that gives copyright holders the power to ask for the removal of content to which they own the rights.
The DMCA is now widely used by the entertainment industry to have content removed from the internet.
For the Church, it was a tool that allowed them to go after ex-members and others who had posted "secret scriptures" online.
One such site, Operation Clambake, was a particular thorn. Set up by Andreas Heldal-Lund, the site not only hosted previously private Scientology documents but large amounts of criticism of the Church too. Because it had been set up in Norway, Xenu.net was beyond the DMCA's reach.
Google 'meeting'
So the Church did the next best thing: it made a request to Google for the site to be wiped from search results. Google complied, sparking strong criticism.
Faced with the backlash, Google came to what founder Sergey Brin would later describe as the "right compromise", removing the listings, but replacing them with links to another website - chillingeffects.org - which lists the details of DMCA requests.
Meanwhile, anti-Scientologists linked to Xenu.net from their own sites, thus pushing it up Google's rankings until it appeared ahead of the Church's official site.
====
Sidebar
Birth of Anonymous
In 2008, a leaked video of Tom Cruise showed the actor and prominent Scientologist energetically enthusing about the Church.
The Church moved swiftly to have it removed from YouTube, and in doing so helped inspire a new, as-yet unknown foe: Anonymous.
Until this point, Anonymous had been made up of mischievous frequenters of message boards like 4Chan, intent mainly on pranks.
But with Scientology in its sights, the group embarked on Project Chanology - a co-ordinated effort to use various hacking techniques to disrupt the Church in any way it could.
Chanology was the first "op" that mobilised the hacktivists in this way, recalls Wikipedia's Dr Poulter.
"Scientology gave them a target to organise around, and brought them off the internet and into real life.
"You wouldn't have people in streets around the world in V for Vendetta masks if it wasn't for Scientology."
====
Former high-ranking Scientologist Geir Isene, who left the Church in 2009, told the BBC the Church was so concerned about this that it put pressure on Mr Brin at a conference in the hope he would alter search results to down-rank, or remove, anti-Scientology material.
The Church denies any discussions took place, while Google told the BBC it had no record of a meeting - but added that Mr Brin and other Google bosses would often meet webmasters and discuss matters relating to search at industry events.
The company strongly denies any suggestion it would have considered changing its search algorithms.
Mr Isene said his IT expertise was used by the Church to get under the skin of Mr Heldal-Lund, by posing online as a girl asking for advice after being brutalised by Jehovah's Witnesses.
Years later, when the Church asked Mr Isene how to combat their "Google problem" he told officials they could never pressure the company into change.
"They thought that was the most stupid thing Google could think - because obviously Scientology was going to save the world and Google was just a simple search engine."
When asked about the meeting, the Church of Scientology played down Mr Isene's contribution.
"He has joined a small group of former Scientologists who are trying to generate media stories about their former faith through exaggerated claims of their own importance," spokeswoman Ms Pouw said.
"He was one of many IT professionals we consulted at the time. Nothing more."
As the years progressed, Scientology's run-ins with the internet community would come thick and fast - mostly notably from the likes of Wikileaks, which in 2008 was still in "beta". It posted more scriptures, provoking the first significant legal challenge to the site's owner, Julian Assange. He ignored the Church's threat.
Superbowl stats
Today, the Church takes pride in its presence on social media and says it works with Google "almost daily" on web ad campaigns.
"The teamwork has resulted in exciting technology and user experience milestones like our rich media YouTube channel as well as the YouTube homepage interactive experience seen by 61,771,958 people in a single day in February of this year."
Scientology protest
But that impressive traffic day, it must be noted, was largely thanks to a Superbowl advertisement costing several millions of dollars.
So while it may have embraced the internet for its own purposes, organisations like the Church of Scientology still face the internet's disregard for secrecy as a constant threat.
According to some measures, the Church is suffering from declining membership. Many who leave the Church are now more able to speak out - particularly with the help of blogs and social media, a threat that even the most intensive use of copyright laws struggles to touch.
"Founder L Ron Hubbard told them how to do everything in life," reflects Dr Poulter from Wikipedia.
"But he didn't leave any instructions on how to handle the internet."
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 years ago

Interesting...
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

I'm very curious about this: Mr Isene said his IT expertise was used by the Church to get under the skin of Mr Heldal-Lund, by posing online as a girl asking for advice after being brutalised by Jehovah's Witnesses.
Does anyone have info about this inccident?
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury a year ago

I know it's a year old, but hey...
http://www.xenu.net/contact.html

 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago


"Founder L Ron Hubbard told them how to do everything in life, but he didn't leave any instructions on how to handle the internet."
Bit of an oversight on Hubbard's part.
I would have thought a sci-fi writer would have easily anticipated the net.
 
 
KateWild
KateWild a year ago

I thought it was interesting how the Church of Scientology tried to silence ex members and even lied about being a JW to do this. Very telling indeed.
The article ends with a more balanced view, but as any ex-cult member would know, putting that much effort into silencing ex members is a cause for concern.
Kate xx
 

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Those Crazy Scientologists
by DevonMcBride 10 years ago 8 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 10 years ago


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/crop-of-circles-a-signpost-for-scientology/2005/12/02/1133422108779.html
Crop of circles a signpost for Scientology
All religions have their sacred texts but Scientology goes to great lengths to ensure L.Ron Hubbard's wise words are not lost, writes Richard Leiby.
SECRET flying saucer base found in New Mexico? Maybe. From the state that gave us Roswell, the epicentre of UFO lore since
1947, comes a report from an Albuquerque TV station about its discovery of strange landscape markings in the remote desert. They're etched in New Mexico's barren northern reaches, resemble crop circles and are recognisable only from a high altitude.
Also, they are directly connected to the Church of Scientology.
The church tried to persuade KRQE not to air its report about the aerial signposts marking a Scientology compound that includes a huge vault "built into a mountainside", the station said. The tunnel was constructed to protect the works of L.Ron Hubbard, the late science fiction writer who founded the church in the 1950s.
The archiving project, which the church has acknowledged, includes engraving Hubbard's writings on stainless steel tablets and encasing them in titanium capsules. It is overseen by a Scientology corporation called the Church of Spiritual Technology. The corporation sent an official named Jane McNairn and a lawyer to visit the TV station in an effort to squelch the story, KRQE's news director, Michelle Donaldson, said.
The church offered a tour of the underground facility if KRQE would kill the piece. Scientology also called KRQE's owner, Emmis Communications, and "sought the help of a powerful New Mexican lawmaker" to lobby against airing the piece, the station reported on its website.
McNairn did not respond to messages requesting comment.
What do the markings mean? For a start, the interlocking circles and diamonds match the logo of the Church of Spiritual Technology, which had the vault constructed in a mesa in the late 1980s.
Perhaps the signs are just a proud expression of the Scientology brand. But there are other, more intriguing, theories.
Former Scientologists familiar with Hubbard's teachings on reincarnation say the symbol marks a "return point" so loyal staff members know where they can find the founder's works when they travel here in the future from other places in the universe.
"As a lifetime staff member, you sign a billion-year contract. It's not just symbolic," said Bruce Hines, who spent 30 years in Scientology but is now critical of it. "You know you are coming back and you will defend the movement no matter what … The fact that they would etch this into the desert to be seen from space, it fits into the whole ideology."
Scientology traces most of mankind's woes to an evil alien lord named Xenu, a galactic holocaust perpetrated 75 million years ago and the field of psychiatry. (The latter is a particular concern, as all of America now knows, of the actor Tom Cruise.)
The church maintains two other vaults, in California, to preserve Hubbard's materials and words, according to Hines and another former staff member who also quit a couple of years ago, Chuck Beatty.
"The whole purpose of putting these teachings in the underground vaults was expressly so that in the event that everything gets wiped out somehow, someone would be willing to locate them and they would still be there," says Beatty, who spent 28 years in Scientology. Some loyalists are given the "super-duper confidential" job of coming back to Earth in the far-off future, he adds.
Other religions preserve their sacred texts. Scientology leaders apparently just don't want to misplace theirs, and maybe this is why somebody put the giant circles on the scrubland. Because there's nothing worse than arriving from deep space, and not knowing where to park.
The Washington Post
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 10 years ago


 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago


I doubt that ET's capable of traversing the vastness of interstellar space would just produce a crop circle enigma.
The virgin Mary (mother of God) gotta be able to do better than make a statue cry tears.
Millions of otherwise rational intelligent humans wouldn't believe that Jesus had his second coming in 1914 and nobody saw it?
 
blakky
blakky 10 years ago


What tha f*#k???
And we think the WTBTS is bad...
 
seattleniceguy
seattleniceguy 10 years ago

Is there a level higher than "bonkers"? I think these guys have it covered.
SNG
 
Jamelle
Jamelle 10 years ago

Wow.
Yep, that about sums it up.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 10 years ago

They obviously learnt from the Mormons. They "lost" their holy book... yeah, pull the other one it's got Qcmbr bells on it...
 
Crumpet
Crumpet 10 years ago

whenever i start to join in on a conversation about those crazies, usually started by some tom cruise related topic, i think about the crazies that raised me and either keep me trap shut or if its appropriate then i give an anti witness. all my neighbours know some of my jw background from a bbq we had in late spring and so i do hope if any of them were in when the jws called round yesterday that they gave them short shrift as did i!
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 10 years ago

"Is there a level higher than "bonkers"? I think these guys have it covered."
Um YEP. It is bonkers, rich, and litigious.
 

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WOW Scientology rants like Watchtower
by Refriedtruth 4 years ago 18 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower scandals
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Refriedtruth
Refriedtruth 4 years ago

Scientology teaches that humans are infected by the souls of dead aliens called Thetans. Jehovah's Witnesses teach Jesus had his second coming invisibly October 5th or 6th 1914Scientologists waterboarded and beat me, says former church official‎
The Sun - Feb 16, 2012 ... she was waterboarded as part of the cult's twisted bid to control members. ... tyranny" she witnessed during 17 years as head of the church in Florida. Scientology showdown reveals claims of torture, abuse of ...‎ San Antonio Currentall 14 news articles » http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/feature?section=news/national_world&id=8545610 from here Scientology response press release Scientology SP "supressed person" rant is a sound byte for Watchtower DF disfellowshipped rant Freaking amazing
 "The proceedings in this Court yesterday clearly violated these proscriptions.
Ms. Cook left the Church clergy over four years ago. Since her departure, the Church has expanded many times over - and particularly where she served in Clearwater. The expansion is coincident with her departure. She has no knowledge of the Church today. She has not attended Church in years as a parishioner and has become a squirrel or a heretic. It is evident that Ms. Cook is extremely bitter that she is no longer part of the Church.
The Church has always been true to L. Ron Hubbard's teachings. Ms. Cook was expelled from the Church for violating Scripture. She and her fellow bitter apostates will never enter a Church of Scientology again . The ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion has dedicated more than 30 years of selfless service for the good of the religion and ten thousand staff and millions of parishioners applaud that service. Further information is available at Scientology(dot)org " --- Note (Scientology has an estimated 50,000 members worldwide)
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

They are by policy worse than even the JWs - however, their numbers are small enough that the JWs are able to do far more worldwide damage.
Absolute nutters.
 
Refriedtruth
Refriedtruth 4 years ago

I don't know if Sci-fi cult sucks in whole multi-generation clans,so that when you are shunned you are cut off from entire family.
The reason I say this is money is the upfront recruitment scam so they don't recruit poor.The Watchtower doesn't discriminate they will take any any and all as corporate slaves.
So if Tom Cruse exits he probably isn't going to get shunned by his family.
 
yourmomma
yourmomma 4 years ago

james woods is correct, in fact scientology makes jw's look like sesame street. witht he said, watchtower is becoming more and more like scientology with the recent shunning rules change, etc that is more in line with scientologys disconnection policy, which is not contact whatsoever.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

One thing that the Witnesses have not done, which Scientology is becoming notorious for, is the physical abuse of adult members who question the teachings. There are incredible stories about their current leader just walking up and punching members out of the blue. Other stories relate members being chained or locked up - forced to perform repetitive manual labor, and so forth.
On the other hand, witnesses have abused children - and scientology has not gone quite as far as the witness blood doctrine. I say not quite as far because they have stubbornly resisted any kind of medical help for mental issues.
Both are wack-job-crazy, evil cults.
 
Sic Semper Tyrannis
Sic Semper Tyrannis 4 years ago

Miscavige is a sadist who is bent on domination and humiliation. He surrounds himself with sycophants like Cruise who are dazzled by his sharp dress, powerful speaking style, and absolute power. Same kind of mind control techniques, but different philosophies altogether. As Tom Cruise once told an interviewer: "If you don't like Scientology, then f*** you. No. Seriously. F*** you." They're wired on a different kind of energy that most Witnesses don't have. No way you'd get these people to sit in a coffee shop while counting hours for Scientology.
 
cofty
cofty 4 years ago

Scientologists give JWs somebody to laugh at.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

Miscavige is the Scientology version of Judge Joe Rutherford - he took over by a palace coup and ousted the actual inner circle that L. Ron Hubbard wanted to succeed him. And, by very similar means - he claimed to have the "last work of the founder" and just took over before anybody knew what was happening.
Not to say that Hubbard was not barking at the moon crazy - you have to be crazy to think up Zenu, the Thetans, and the hydrogen bomb volcanos.
Crazy on top of more crazy in both cults.
 
Londo111
Londo111 4 years ago

Thanks for the info! Good stuff!
 
glenster
glenster 4 years ago

http://www.xenu.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies
 
Refriedtruth
Refriedtruth 4 years ago

Google-Brumley Watchtower Scientology
Reason,the Watchtower has done a LOT of allied court friend of the court friend of scientology litiigation stuff. I wonder if being bunkmates could backfire now that Scientology is getting wicked bad PR?
Brumley is aka Phillip Brumley Watchtower chief lawyer
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 4 years ago

So the Scientologists are Thetanists, and their teachings are Thetanic doctrines.
On the other hand, the Watchtower is a sort of Scientology for poor people, and they get to work off their initiation fees doing ministry.
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 4 years ago

It is being reported that Katie Holmes used a disposable cell phone to start the divorce with Tom Cruise. Spies, spies, and lies.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

You are posting that in jest, right - skeeter1?
 
skeeter1
skeeter1 4 years ago

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/07/katie-holmes-used-throw-away-cell-phone-to-set-divorce-in-motion-source-says.html

Nope. Cruise had to know something was wrong, and likely had spies on her every move. Scientology has alot of spies and lies (ok, theocratic lying) alot. Like someone else we know.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

Yup. I was afraid of that.
We should never forget - as ex Witnesses - that as bad as we were indoctrinated into a cult, we could have been in one far worse.
Well, like was said in another of the threads on this:
The JWs have the Candace Conti lawsuit - the Scientologists have the Katie Holmes divorce.
 
Refriedtruth
Refriedtruth 4 years ago

Jehovah's Witnesses have a gang stalking / mob tactic practice that is more intrusive than Scientology.
JW go door to door and will defiant trespass by sending minor children or old sister flakey to knock on your door to make you nervous or just gather intell. If I was Scientologst # 1 mortal enemy they could not so much as sit in a parked car on my suburban street without the neighbors calling the cops in 5 mins.
My neighborhood has children day care businesses on BOTH sides of my house and no creepy strangers can come close even the FBI would get given away.
JW CAN go on my street and write down info about you on a notepad in plain sight and not get challenged.
Just my observations.
 
james_woods
james_woods 4 years ago

RefriedTruth - what I was referring to is the well-documented fact that the Scientologists will PHYSICALLY restrain you or beat you up if you cross them.
However, they do share many similarities with the JWs.
 
frankiespeakin
frankiespeakin 3 years ago




 

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Wikipedia Bans Scientology from Editing their site..
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Those Crazy Scientologists.
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Crop of circles a signpost for Scientology . All religions have their sacred texts but Scientology goes to great ...

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WOW Scientology rants like Watchtower.
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Scientology teaches that humans are infected by the souls of dead aliens called Thetans.

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Will Smith is a Scientologist!?
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Australian Senator Slams Scientology in Parliment - Could JWs Be Next?
by Hopscotch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 6 years ago
Australian Senator Xenophon slammed Scientology in a speech in parliment. It was covered last night on national TV ...

SirNose586
Larsinger58
wobble
6 years ago
besty
12
Amazon pulls Scientology book for 'legal reason'
by besty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 7 years ago
Amazon UK pulls Scientology expose for 'legal reasons'Track this topic Print story Post commentSilences former ...

besty
Dogpatch
besty
7 years ago
Kent
Who does the Watchtower use to defend JWs?
by Kent in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 15 years ago
A problem with Scientology in the house of Luschkov . Berlin, Germany. November 11, 1999. BerlinOnline.

MadApostate
News Re JWs in France/Scientology Competes at WTC.
by MadApostate in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 14 years ago
According to TTC here, members of the Church of Scientology, in their aim to gain popular acceptance and ...

behemot
8
Russia: Scientology writings banned as extremist.
by behemot in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 6 years ago
Scientology Writings Banned as Extremist21 April 2010By Scott RoseWorks by Scientology founder L.

Mad Sweeney
JWoods
Mad Sweeney
6 years ago
jt stumbler
5
Thought this would be interesting to some..
by jt stumbler in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 years ago
Scientology Celebrities . . Newspaper Articles . . Scientology Books . . All the Sites worth Seeing .

jt stumbler
jt stumbler
daystar
10 years ago
MadGiant
6
Scientology Loses Fraud Case, A-list Member.
by MadGiant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 6 years ago
Search: Scientology Loses Fraud Case, A-list Member. With a fraud conviction, an Oscar winner's angry departure and ...

BlackSwan of Memphis
MadGiant
No Longer Held Captive
6 years ago
neverendingjourney
21
Did Anyone See the Nightline Special on Scientology?
by neverendingjourney in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 6 years ago
Anyway, I just finished watching the Nightline special on Scientology. Martin Bashir (the guy who did the Michael ...

rebel8
PSacramento
JWoods
6 years ago
leavingwt
10
More Church of Scientology Defectors Come Forward with Accounts of Abuse.
by leavingwt in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 7 years ago
More Church of Scientology Defectors Come Forward with Accounts of Abuse. They are stepping forward from Dallas and ...

Billy the Ex-Bethelite
flipper
JWoods
7 years ago
skeeter1
5
Actor Publicly Quits Scientology.
by skeeter1 in Social
 » Entertainment
 8 years ago http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352069,00.htmlJason Beghe: Scientology a ' Con'Tuesday, April 22, 2008.

Satanus
real one
Gerard
8 years ago
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German Government "Scientology Unconstitutional"
by skeeter1 in Social
 » News & World Events
 8 years ago
German ministers say Scientology unconstitutional By Louis Charbonneau 1 hour, 26 minutes ago .

Junction-Guy
SacrificialLoon
Fatfreek
8 years ago
besty
3
Huge expose of Scientology - June 23rd 2009 St Petersburg Times.
by besty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 7 years ago
Either several former ranking, long-term members of the Church of Scientology have all simultaneously decided to lie ...

Farkel
passwordprotected
besty
7 years ago
defender of truth
3
'Going Clear' Director Calls for End to Scientology Tax-Exempt Status !!
by defender of truth in Social
 » Entertainment
 a year ago
regarding 'private interests,' it seems clear that scientology is ruled by only one man, [scientology head] david ...

wannaexit
defender of truth
defender of truth
a year ago
Nathan Natas
6
Scientology Losing Ground To New Fictionology.
by Nathan Natas in Social
 » Jokes & Humour
 9 years ago
Scientology Losing Ground To New Fictionology. LOS ANGELESAccording to a report released Monday by the American ...

TheHypnoToad
SirNose586
candidlynuts
9 years ago
Dogpatch
4
MUST READ STORY.
by Dogpatch in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 14 years ago
If you would like to read a FASCINATING article regarding a recent detractor from the church of Scientology, ...

lisaBObeesa
Satanus
Dogpatch
14 years ago
Dogpatch
5
Alain Garay (attorney) and clientele (Scientology and WT) post ??
by Dogpatch in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 10 years ago
In Germany, the main struggle has been with the Church of Scientology: after a police investigation in 1997 the ...

Dogpatch
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
10 years ago
plmkrzy
5
Capital Hill for Scientology.
by plmkrzy in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 13 years ago
In a strange twist it seems that Scientology eventually got both the Presley name and at least some of Elvis' money, ...

Satanus
refiners fire
plmkrzy
13 years ago
TerryWalstrom
6
Scientology is a template of ultimate Mind Control: Here are some books exposing the methods and madness.
by TerryWalstrom in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 7 months ago
pdf links to anti-scientology books. http://exscientologistsireland.org/wp/about -the-scientology-organisation/books/ ...

Sofia Lose
OrphanCrow
TerryWalstrom
7 months ago
sammielee24
4
Scientology might get thrown out of France.
by sammielee24 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 7 years ago
France. The Church of Scientology faces being thrown out of France if it is found guilty of organised fraud in a ...

DaCheech
Satanus
WTWizard
7 years ago
leavingwt
4
Interview with a Scientology Insider.
by leavingwt in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 4 years ago
The Village Voice has published an interview with a 32-year member of the Church of Scientology who left in 2010.

yknot
james_woods
poppers
4 years ago
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LaToya Jackson on the view and JW's
by exwhyzee 6 years ago 3 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw experiences
5
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exwhyzee
exwhyzee 6 years ago

Didn't know the other host of the view was also a former Witness.
http://www.jw-tube.com/videos/38/abc-the-view-latoya-jackson-jws
Judge Rutheford...never heard his voice before
http://www.jw-tube.com/videos/106/the-photodrama-of-creation-intro.-to-part-i
Phil Donahue on JW's
http://www.jw-tube.com/videos/291/phil-donahue-on-robert-h.-jackson
 
wantstoleave
wantstoleave 6 years ago

I Knew that lady on the view was a witness, but thanks for sharing the video :smile: I couldn't view the Phil Donahue one, what was that about?
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 6 years ago

I really go with that view point... Children of JWs must be given their choice, once they're of a reasonable age, early teens is good for me, to either continue or decline becoming a JW; without the consequence of the shunning and other tactics to sort of force them into the fold.
Having said that, of course, I do admit the the children that I've known to get out sure have 'thrown the baby out with the bath water', really gone off the deep end and made such a horrible mess out of themselves and their lives. It sure would've been better if they'd stayed with the religious education and followed accordingly.
Just reporting what I've seen.
DY
 
booby
booby 6 years ago

this is an interesting conundrum to me. who gets to train the child. parent or state? obviously the parent should be paramount. BUT can a child be trained/raised in a household with devout/serious jw or any other religion of the type that controls lives as they do and still be said to be given their choice. If you raise a child in an atmosphere where until the age of, say 16, they are kept in a closed arrangement like that it really is superficial to say that they are given a choice.
 

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Firpo Carr "Family Friend" to the Jacksons (Michael) Surfaces Again
by blondie 12 years ago 17 Replies latest 12 years ago   watchtower child-abuse
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blondie
blondie 12 years ago

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/story.jsp?story=538689
You've got a friend in me
It's billed as the most sensational trial since OJ Simpson's, but even if convicted of child abuse, one man will stand by Michael Jackson - Dr Firpo Carr. In LA, the Jackson family's 'spiritual advisor' explains how the star is the victim of a racist plot
By Robert Chalmers
11 July 2004
Even before I turned on the television news that morning and heard a private detective alleging that Michael Jackson's genitals have "a kind of tie-dyed appearance", I tell Dr Firpo Carr, I had been starting to wonder just quite how good a job he, Jackson's "spiritual adviser", had been doing. It's a minor detail in the context of a cuttings file that has included, within the same paragraph, terms like "12-year-old boy", "masturbation" and "fellatio"; and yet, taken as a whole, this is surely the kind of vocabulary that Carr, a lexicographer and man of God, is most eager to discourage.
"Well, the first thing I would say," the doctor replies, "is that, if you hear things through the media, be suspect about them."
"Like that magazine story about ritual cleansing in sheep's blood, and the quotations from voodoo death rites Michael Jackson supposedly commissioned in Switzerland in 2000?"
"Yes," says Carr.
"How did it go? 'David Geffen - be gone!' 'Steven Spielberg - be gone!'"
"Yes. Though that is not a pattern of behaviour I recognise," says Carr. "Michael has always had an eye for the unusual. Michael is a joker."
This year promises to be one of the least amusing of the singer's turbulent life. In January he was arraigned on 10 counts, including child molestation, administering an intoxicating agent to a minor, conspiracy to commit child abduction, false imprisonment and extortion. On 30 April he pleaded not guilty to all charges, each of which is punishable by three to eight years in prison. The case has uncomfortable echoes of the Jordie Chandler affair, settled out of court in January 1994. Jackson, who denied allegations that he had sexually molested Chandler when the boy was 13, paid $22m (£12m) to the child and his family. The singer is currently free, on $3m (£1.6m) bail. A trial date has been provisionally set for September.
Santa Barbara prosecutors have imposed a so-called "gagging order" aimed at suppressing details of the latest charges, which concern a boy of Hispanic origin, 12 at the time of the offences which allegedly occurred early last year at Neverland, Jackson's 2,700-acre ranch at Los Olivos, north of Los Angeles. The ruling seems, if anything, to have heightened the interest of the US media, though the Jackson family - notoriously uncoordinated under most circumstances - has closed ranks around its most famous member, seeking to pursue a strategy of dignified silence.
Dr Carr, meanwhile, has become a familiar figure on US news networks. Though he used to be introduced as Jackson's "spiritual adviser", he now prefers to be called a "family friend". A devout but controversial member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the faith in which Jackson was raised, Carr has travelled to court with the singer's parents Joseph and Katherine, and is especially close to Michael's brother Randy (they shared a flat for a year in the mid-1990s) and eldest sister Rebbie, who first introduced him to the family, 10 years ago.
Diversity has been the keynote of Firpo Carr's career. "I've been called everything from a visionary, to a prophet, to a holy man," says Carr, a former computer engineer with IBM and systems analyst at the LAPD, and the author of books such as Are Gays Really 'Gay'? - a bold thesis whose chapter-headings include: "Benjamite Buggery" and "What Constitutes a Cure?" Earlier this year Firpo turned up in Bahrain wearing a thobe tunic, giving joint lectures on comparative religion with Michael Jackson's brother Jermaine, an orthodox Muslim.
I'd been dealing with Dr Carr via his office in LA - premises, he'd said, which were "not suitable" for a meeting. Instead he agreed to talk in my hotel room in West Hollywood.
I'd expected a soberly dressed zealot carrying a pile of Watchtowers (the Jehovah Witness's proselytising magazine) but Carr arrives in jeans, a loose-fitting Tahitian shirt and a Walkman. Firpo - who is 50, but looks 10 years younger - is bright, engaging, and good-humoured. As you might expect from a collector of historic dictionaries, there's a slight preciousness about his language - he's fond of phrases like "if you will", and prefers "refrain", or "cease" in places where, for most people, a simple "stop" would do.
How well does he know the notorious recluse?
Carr describes his contacts with Jackson as limited but intense, and "sufficient to be able to speak authoritatively on his character".
Their conversations began shortly after the star's arrest last year, he says. Then, at one private audience, in February: "Michael suddenly said: 'I love you.' And I said - because I felt I had to - 'I love you too.' And then, with what some people might think was arrogance, but which I interpret as innocence, Michael said: 'I love you more.' I was like - OK, Michael has spoken. When you are with Michael Jackson," Carr adds, "he is so spiritual.
"Michael," he recalls, "pointed at me, almost in anger. Then he said: 'You are the prophet.'"
As with the OJ Simpson trial, whose drama it threatens to eclipse, the Michael Jackson case seems likely to throw up a cast of captivating minor characters. Carr, who already gets hailed by strangers, is well-placed to become Jackson's Kato Kaelin.
Carr admits that certain sections of the US media, notably talk radio, don't take him seriously. It could be to do with his first name (inspired by "The Wild Bull of the Pampas", Argentinian heavyweight Luis Firpo) which is more A Night at the Opera than Twelve Angry Men. There's also a tendency for Jackson's incrementally bizarre behaviour (whether he's dangling his baby over a balcony, leaping on the bonnet of an SUV outside the courthouse, or boasting about taking his new-born daughter home in a towel, with her placenta) to undermine not just his own credibility, but that of his apologists. This is especially true of Michael Jackson and Elizabeth Taylor who - with each successive crisis, and cosmetic operation - become increasingly ardent in their mutual support, and less and less easy to tell apart. One US satirist has a routine in which Firpo Carr explains that Jackson once considered a face transplant, but pulled out after Liza Minnelli, his preferred donor, withheld consent: "Because Liza is still using her face - sort of."
Carr's enemies focus on his doctorate, a qualification in Computing Information Systems from the Californian branch of the Pacific Western University, based in Hawaii, an on-line institution widely critiqued as a "diploma-mill". But when I called the relevant universities to check on his previous degrees (the first, also in computing, from the University of San Francisco, the second a Master's in management from the University of Redlands, California) both confirmed his CV as genuine. So did his former employers, including the LAPD. Carr currently works part-time for a satellite campus of the University of Phoenix, lecturing in Comparative Religion.
What I can't understand, given his loyalty to Michael Jackson, is why Carr has apparently ignored an open letter the singer released in March, which is essentially a desperate plea to Firpo - he is mentioned by name - to shut up.
"Michael sent me a letter to say, hey - for the record - don't represent me," Carr says. "But then he cleared me to speak. And his mom and dad, and the family, are like: 'Oh, please, get out there and speak for us. They are slaughtering him in the press.'"
Firpo perseveres, "out of love. I am outraged at what is happening to Michael, because I believe there is a racist component in all of this."
Carr cites the unease Jackson generated when he started having his security handled by the Nation of Islam. "Nobody complained when Howard Hughes was protected by Mormons," he argues. "Even though the Book of Mormon teaches that a dark-skinned man will have to turn white to enter heaven."
"Michael Jackson should have no worries there, then."
"Michael's a light-skinned black man," says Carr, good-naturedly.
"He's a man who has changed colour," I argue. One of his own doctors has confirmed that he used the bleaching agent, Benoquin.
"Michael has vitiligo. I've seen it. OK, he tried to bleach his skin, to even it out. It's outlandish to me that people suggest Michael Jackson is * trying to be white. In any case," Carr asks, in an amiably ironic tone, "who would want to be white?"
How would it have been, asks Carr - referring to the November 2003 raid on Neverland - "if 70 black officers had invaded Graceland, and taken Elvis to have his genitals photographed? [As Jackson's were, during the Chandler investigation, which resulted in no criminal charges.] The black community is very upset. The feeling is: if you can get to Michael, you can get to any of us. We have to rally around."
Jackson wasn't arrested because he's black, but because he's accused of assaulting young boys; Presley would have been treated no differently.
"I beg to differ, because Elvis slept with an underaged girl," says Carr, arguing that Presley's relationship with his wife Priscilla, which began when she was 14, suggests that he was dating her "in the Biblical sense".
"But had Presley done what Jackson is accused of doing, you wouldn't blame the police for arresting him."
"I just want people to be treated equally - black or white. Michael was manhandled when he was arrested, we are told."
"He claimed that he was handcuffed too tightly, and shut in a room 'decorated with doo-doo'."
"Right," Carr says. "Human faeces. [Country singer] Glen Campbell knees his booking sergeant - knees him - and that's OK. Because Glen Campbell's a good old boy. But what happens if you are Magic Johnson, or Michael Jordan, or Michael Jackson? You're all still niggers."
"Does Jackson himself feel that?"
"I know he does."
"That he is being treated like a nigger?"
"Yes."
"He said that to you?"
"I won't repeat exactly what he said. But he is convinced that, with the people who are out to get him - the authorities - there is a racial element to it. OK, if Michael was guilty, fine. But let's treat suspects equally."
When the Mexican waiter comes in with coffee, Carr chats in Spanish. Back in his mother tongue, his conversation is punctuated with thoughts about the derivation of modern vocabulary, with reference to Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic. He served an unusual apprenticeship for academic life, growing up in Nickerson Gardens, the largest and most formidable housing project in Watts, South Central LA, on a street now in the heartland of the notorious gang, the Bloods.
Firpo is the second youngest in a family of five boys and four girls.
"I am the only one of my brothers who has not been incarcerated," he says. "I am the only one who hasn't been shot or stabbed."
Howard, his eldest brother, was murdered when Carr was 18.
"My other brothers were pimps and drug pushers," he says. "When I was a boy they would bring their 'ho's' as they called them, into the house. Dad would tell Mom: 'Hey, they're just going through a phase.' I can remember thinking: 'What kind of phase is this?'"
"What other crimes," I ask, "did your brothers commit?"
"Shootings, gambling, armed robbery."
Like Michael Jackson, who was taken by his mother to the Kingdom Hall in Gary, Indiana, when he was five, Firpo was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. (As late as 1984, Jackson, whose Thriller was then the bestselling album ever, was going door to door in LA in a large hat and preposterous beard distributing Watchtower; he officially left the religion in 1987.) Carr was invited to the Jackson family home after Rebbie Jackson read his book: Jehovah's Witnesses: the African-American Enigma, which portrays an organisation where black members represent 30 per cent of foot-soldiers, but almost none are generals. Carr still worships as a Witness, though his faith has not banished temptation: he recently moved in with his fifth wife; they have a one-bedroom flat in the Marina del Rey area of Los Angeles.
I ask him why a man with two respectable degrees should feel the need to get a PhD on-line. Firpo says his doctorate is wrongly maligned, and required new research. I suspect he wanted an instantly recognisable badge of academic distinction, to mark his transition from the very bad place he came out of.
He has one daughter, Daniell, from his second marriage; he tells me how he let her stay at Neverland as a teenager. (All allegations of impropriety by Jackson involve boys.)
What puzzles me, I tell Carr, is how he feels so certain that Jackson is innocent. Over the past 12 years, the distinguished Vanity Fair reporter, Maureen Orth, has become Sherlock Holmes to Jackson's Moriarty. If her exhaustive investigations, collected in her new book The Importance of Being Famous, have demonstrated anything, it is that Jackson has paid off several boys or their families, and that exactly what occurs when his young guests sleep in his heavily alarmed bedroom is never revealed to outsiders.
"Michael is the quintessence of innocence," says Carr. "If Jesus were here today, given how much he loved children, then - if the authorities had wanted to get him on something - probably they would have charged Jesus Christ as well."
"With child molestation?"
"Right."
"You're saying you think Jesus Christ could have found himself facing the charges that Michael Jackson does today?"
"Sure."
"Which implies that good and evil are at play in this case, in your opinion?"
"They are. Michael has done so much good. I have examined the facts. They don't add up. Which means there are sinister forces at work. I am against sinister forces. I will battle evil. I will step up."
"Imagine this isn't about Michael Jackson. Imagine you or I went on ABC and mentioned that we share beds with 12-year-old boys. What conclusion would people draw then?"
"But it is Michael Jackson. And he never said he slept with them. He said he shared his bed. That's like me saying I share my ice-cream. We are not eating from the same spoon at the same time. Why wouldn't he let them share his bed, and he sleep on the floor?"
"But what he said to Martin Bashir, in Living With Michael Jackson was, to be precise, 'I have slept in a bed with many children.'"
"Right. Now here's what he means by that. Just as, on that programme, he was hugging one boy; it is my understanding that you can sit on a bed with a child in your arms, and fall asleep. He is not talking about under the covers, overnight. He means on top of the bed; on the edge of the bed..."
And so we go on, in a reprise of the weird three-legged waltz that has passed for debate over the Jackson affair on US television, and promises to continue when the case gets to court.
Carr suggests there were only two alleged cases of abuse - Chandler, and the current Latino boy - 10 years apart. Actually there have been far more reports of people being paid off, as Randy Taraborrelli has mentioned in his enormous, broadly sympathetic, biography of Jackson. ("Do you know how many children are going to psychiatrists because of Michael?" his sister LaToya asked at a 1993 press conference where she said she had seen cancelled cheques made out to boys. "So many, many children.")
"The NBC show Dateline," I remind Carr, "publicly referred to five alleged cases. And one of Orth's Vanity Fair articles contains the line: 'Michael Jackson has paid out to lawyers, voodoo chiefs, and the families of his "special friends" all over the world.' That's the kind of sentence that would have me sprinting to my attorney's office."
"That may happen, down the line," he replies.
Orth famously described the singer giving children soft-drinks cans filled with white wine ("Jesus Juice") or red wine ("Jesus Blood"), and referred to one 13-year-old who got so drunk he was sick. The child, Carr points out, has subsequently contradicted this claim. ("The boy denied it," Orth told me, "but I had two sources on that. The child said it didn't happen that way. My sources said it did. We stand by it.")
Even if we accept Carr's belief that Jackson has become an innocent target for corrupt and litigious parents, it was hardly prudent, following the Chandler case, to continue inviting boys for sleepovers.
"You've spoken to Jackson," I say to Carr, "have you never suggested it might be an idea to rethink the way he organises his social life?"
"Anyone who said that to him would be summarily dismissed."
We break for lunch. I ask Firpo, who has remained genial and relaxed throughout, to show me the project where he grew up, in Watts. We drive round the highly intimidating, effectively segregated black neighbourhood and at one point make the mistake of getting out of the car.
"Hey," a youth shouts to Carr, approaching us with a homicidal look. "While your grandfather was rowing that slave ship, his grandfather [pointing at me] was sitting on the deck - drinking whisky, drinking cognac, drinking wine. You have Satan at your shoulder, brother."
"Are you getting paid by the Jacksons?" I ask Carr, as we head off towards Marina del Rey, where Satan can breathe a little more easily.
"No. Not a cent. These are my friends you * are talking about. I go out to bat for them. I never said that Michael has used the best judgment. Or that he is not strange to people. But from what I have seen, he is not a child molester. You don't go to jail for having light skin and long hair."
We stop off at Carr's office. It's a lock-up the size of a small garage that he rents for $50 (£27) a week. He opens the steel door to reveal hundreds of books, mostly Bibles, dictionaries and bound copies of the Watchtower. As I'm treacherously scanning the shelves for Hustler ("Well you won't find that here, Robert") I do notice one secular work: Taraborrelli's Jackson biography, with a promotional sticker which reads: "More Luscious Sleaze! More Great Dirt!" There's a desk with a computer, printer and telephone. Carr sits down to check his e-mails.
The concrete unit has no windows, and the temperature is unbearable. "How do you work in this heat?" I ask, to which he responds, with a typically genteel Firpoism: "I disrobe."
He takes a clay jar off one shelf, opens it and removes his prize possession: a reproduction of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Carr translates a phrase, then begins addressing the question of whether the Greek wording of Isaiah 40:22 implies the Earth was already perceived as a rotating sphere. When we leave, he has to have two goes at closing the door, which is blocked by an old bicycle. This is not a man who is brazenly on the make.
"Why are you doing this?" I ask him. "Do you just like publicity? Do you want to get on every show you can?"
"That's not true. I turned down Inside Edition yesterday."
Firpo is working on a screenplay based on the life of Jerome Fisher, a medic from an all-black unit sent in to remove rotting cadavers at Dachau while, as Fisher claims in Carr's book Germany's Black Holocaust, white personnel were held back. Since he's a would-be film writer, I assume - perhaps ungenerously - that he believes international television exposure can do him no harm. He's certainly driven by a dedication to civil rights, and seems genuinely persuaded that Jackson's arrest is the result of endemic racism in the police and judiciary.
Firpo's world view isn't an easy one to sum up, incorporating as it does a range of vigorous opinions that more orthodox thinkers would struggle to hold simultaneously. For instance he explains that homosexuality is "a spiritual evil" which directly caused the collapse of the Roman Empire, but is comfortable defending the familiar television images of Jackson hugging a 12-year-old boy. He is a tireless scourge of racists, and yet certain passages in Germany's Black Holocaust recall some of the less-convivial views of the Nation of Islam, especially where Jewish history is concerned. At one point, when he's talking about racism on television, I mention the football commentator Ron Atkinson's recent dismissal, and tell Carr how his language contrasted with his magnificently Daltonian instincts as a manager. I'd expected the author of Wicked Words, Poisoned Minds: Racism in the Dictionary to go apoplectic, but he says Big Ron should possibly have been judged on his deeds as much as his words.
Although he insists that he left the police voluntarily, Carr admits that his rapport with the department may not have been improved by his attempt to sue the LAPD for harassment in 2000, after he was asked to produce ID in a mainly white area of the city where he says his sole offence was "driving while black".
When he appeared in court, Carr was flanked by Randy Jackson and Muslim activist Najee Ali, a former convict who runs a charity in South Central. The case was thrown out but an unflattering account of the proceedings was posted on the Web by Carr's main enemy, Jerry Bergman, a former Witness. Bergman, like Carr, is a versatile author: his publications include Understanding Poisons, Are Wisdom Teeth Vestiges of Evolution? and The Do-Do Bird."
"Why is he posting all this stuff about you?"
"Because he is a low life," says Carr, "and he thinks I am the Antichrist."
Bergman, whose website has a somewhat hysterical tone, does make one interesting point in relation to Carr's defence of Jackson: as a Jehovah's Witness, Carr is not supposed to frequent people who, like Jackson, have been disfellowshipped. To quote the exact translation of the relevant verse of 1 Corinthians I found in my hotel Bible, it is his duty, faced with "the wicked man", to "quit mixing with him".
That said, the singer told an interviewer as recently as 2001 that he still considers himself a member of the faith. Is Jackson still a Witness?
"Not officially," says Carr. "Although he subscribes to many of the beliefs."
The Watchtower often refers to 1 Corinthians 6:9, which says that "neither fornicators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate men, nor abusers of themselves with mankind" will be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. This has implications for Carr personally if Jackson is - as he has been reported - a man who has been addicted to Demerol (a medication similar to morphine), drunk to excess and been in and out of rehab.
His contact with a man of Jackson's reputation, Firpo says, is "one of the reasons I am considered a rebel".
So he has heard of Demerol.
"Well, that's a painkiller and Michael got addicted to it, like a zillion other people."
"Would it bother you if he drank to excess?"
"Yes. As far as I know he will have a social drink. I've never seen him drunk."
"Face down on the floor of an airliner in Frankfurt," I say, quoting from one article. "That's not very social."
"All I can say is I've never seen him drunk."
The life Michael Jackson enjoys - remote, cocooned and apparently immune from the normal restraints of the world - is of a kind associated with eccentrics from a bygone age of Hollywood, such as Howard Hughes. There are even aspects of Jackson's recent past - his flamboyance, his reckless disregard for public disquiet at his conduct with young boys, and a general perception that, were he to be sent to prison, he would be too fragile to survive - which recall the life of Oscar Wilde. The Irish writer, in his later years, was fond of drawing comparisons between himself and Christ, like Carr does with Jackson. "The only difference between me and Jesus Christ," Wilde remarked, shortly before his conviction on indecency charges in 1895, "is that I never found 12 men who didn't believe in me."
"Not that you would want to carry a comparison between the creators of Bad and De Profundis too far..."
"No," says Carr, who is not a big fan of Wilde. "Michael has not been convicted of anything."
But just say that Jackson is guilty, I ask Carr, as we're driving back towards Hollywood, and he eventually admits it.
"I would be devastated that he could have done such a horrific thing."
"Would you speak to him again?"
He pauses.
"Probably."
"And?"
"I would say: 'You have a very serious sickness. You have to get help. And I hope, as God is my witness, that you reassess who you are.'"
Jackson has a formidable legal team which includes OJ Simpson attorney Johnnie Cochran, and the trial process is unlikely to be swift.
"If convicted," says Maureen Orth, "he will appeal and appeal. But they are never going to make an exception for a case that is so high profile. If he's found guilty, I don't see how he's going to avoid going to jail."
How does Carr think Jackson would manage in prison?
"Well, they wouldn't like him because he is a child molester - at least," he adds, "that is how they would see him. They wouldn't like him because he is a freak - again, that's how they would view him. And they wouldn't like him because he's, er..." Carr seems to forget where he was. "Oh, yeah. He's a star."
Forced to exist in a world without children, the singer said at the end of Bashir's grotesque documentary: "I would jump off the balcony immediately. I'm done, I'm done." His current predicament lends a disturbing resonance to that remark, and to another moment in the same broadcast where he insisted he never wants to grow old. Should Jackson be convicted, suicide, Carr admits, "is a worry".
It's early evening by the time Dr Carr drops me back at the Hyatt. Watching his tail lights disappear into the traffic down Sunset Boulevard, I'm struck by the thought that he may be the one man in LA whose faith in Jackson is absolutely unshakeable. I suspect that the singer's conviction on every charge would simply alter Carr's mission from one of protecting his reputation to rehabilitating it, and that Jackson - like Christ - is a figure he will never stop defending. This is a crusade that will never be over, even if the Santa Barbara jury does return a verdict which proves that Michael Jackson, like Oscar Wilde at the Old Bailey, has found his 12th unbeliever. *
 
willyloman
willyloman 12 years ago

Geez, Blondie, what a fascinating report you've uncovered! Just amazing.
 
lisaBObeesa
lisaBObeesa 12 years ago

Wow. That's some wierd, wild stuff.
Interesting. Thanks.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 12 years ago

Yup, Firpo's quite a character! Just when ya think nothing will surprise you---it does!
Thanks, Blondie, for sending it along.

hugs,
Annie
 
johnny cip
johnny cip 12 years ago

iv'e seen this carr guy on t.v. and radio. he can jive more bullshit than rev al sharpton. firpo carr is a poster boy for what a jive ass nigger is. john
 
AlanF
AlanF 12 years ago

This report simply adds to what I've known for some time: Firpo Carr is among the world's most accomplished in the field of self-promotion. He obviously likes the publicity and hopes to benefit from it.
AlanF
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 12 years ago

Excellent work, Blondie.
It did neglect to mention that Firpo Car is the inventor of the "self-flying kite."
 
wednesday
wednesday 12 years ago

gee, johnny cripp, don't hold back, tell us how u really feel
 
Undaunted Danny
Undaunted Danny 12 years ago

Roger that Blondie Thanks and I quote:"Yes. Though that is not a pattern of behaviour I recognise," says Carr. "Michael has always had an eye for the unusual. Michael is a joker."
Undaunted Danny is an idiot savant (unusual behavior indeed)
It's money that does the talking and usually it shouts!
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 12 years ago

This just in -- Firpo Carr is reputedly also the inventor of the "self-tooting horn." Film at eleven...
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

Hmmmm, now I wonder why this could be?:
Carr admits that certain sections of the US media, notably talk radio, don't take him seriously.


sKally

 
ColdRedRain
ColdRedRain 12 years ago

Oh lord, here we go again. Blame talk radio for your being a kook.
 
Jerry Bergman
Jerry Bergman 12 years ago

Bergman, whose website has a somewhat hysterical tone, does make one interesting point in relation to Carr's defence of Jackson: as a Jehovah's Witness, Carr is not supposed to frequent people who, like Jackson, have been disfellowshipped. To quote the exact translation of the relevant verse of 1 Corinthians I found in my hotel Bible, it is his duty, faced with "the wicked man", to "quit mixing with him". Interesting, as I do not have a web site and never have. I wonder what he is referring to here. Does anyone have a clue on this?
 
blondie
blondie 12 years ago

Jerry, are you suggesting we have some insight into the "mind" of Firpo Carr?
I do remember some statements on Randy Watter's FreeMinds site purported to be by Jerry Bergman.
http://www.freeminds.org/african/bergman.htm
http://www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar2.htm

Blondie
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 12 years ago

Apparently Jerry, you've taken control of the Silentlambs website!
I Googled ["firpo carr" +jehovah +disfellowshipped +corinthians] and found this page:
http://www.silentlambs.org/MJJW.htm
 
TallTexan
TallTexan 12 years ago

This really is interesting. Wonder why the WTS hasn't screamed to the heavens disavowing any knowledge of this joker and swearing he was da'd like, 100 years ago or something. Talk about embarassing for them....lol.
 
XQsThaiPoes
XQsThaiPoes 12 years ago

oddly FC was dfed for adultry not too long ago but he is a magic man when it comes to being reinstated. I swear he could break into bethel sodomize the entire GB while urinating on the NWT and be reinstated in under a year.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 12 years ago

**This just in -- Firpo Carr is reputedly also the inventor of the "self-tooting horn." Film at eleven... THIS struck me as SO funny!!!! I have to wonder too, at one of those "WHAT was I thinking" moments that should have traipsed across MAMA Carr's mind...........gazing down at her newborn and saying , "I'll name him FIRPO"...... Whatever.
 

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Firpo Carr said Michael Jackson wanted kids raised as Jehovah's Witnesses
by Dogpatch 7 years ago 11 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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Dogpatch
Dogpatch 7 years ago

But how long ago did this happen?
Randy
see end of my article at:
http://freeminds.org/sociology/other/the-family-faith-and-fate-of-michael-jackson.html
Hear Nancy Grace interview Firpo Carr regarding Michael Jackson's desire to have Firpo Carr, a former family advisor to the Jacksons (and a Jehovah's Witness), where he says to the world that Michael told him privately that he wanted Firpo to "study the Bible with them (Michael's children) because he wants his children to be raised the same way," meaning as Jehovah's Witnesses.
on Youtube:

&feature=player_embedded

other articles of mine on Firpo (who I have met personally when he came to my door, and he talked to me at length even after he found out who I was (he had previously read my "What Happened at "Bethel" tract). Funny experience. He was cool, though.



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http://www.freeminds.org/sociology/other/dr.-firpo-carr-a-typical-watchtower-apologist.html
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Randy
 
Scully
Scully 7 years ago

Of course Firpo Carr would say that. Three little kids to indoctrinate, especially one with a dead superstar father, and tons of potential money to glom onto? Now there's an Awake! article waiting to be written!
 
SouthCentral
SouthCentral 7 years ago

I met Firpo. He went to a hall in Lynwood, CA I believe. We went for pizza with his family. He was a typical, black JW. IMO. That means; Very well versed in the theology, outstanding speaker and slightly arrogant.

He later married a younger sister from my hall in Inglewood.

I did not know he would have bigger things in his future.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 7 years ago

He used to go door-to-door in Manhattan Beach, where he came up to me one Saturday morning, with a young sidekick, and started witnessing to me! I told him who I was, and he knew me because he had read my tract that I printed 10,000 of about what happened at Bethel in 1980 (written in 1981). His friend called him "Firpo" and I about coughed up on the spot, as I had just finished writing an article about him in the Bethel Ministries newsletter, so the timing was impeccable. LOL
He continued to talk despite that for about 15 minutes, was very nice. Even gave me his card!
Randy
 
WuzLovesDubs
WuzLovesDubs 7 years ago

I feel sorry for those three children who are caught in the middle of this three ring circus the adults in their lives have created...and I dont see an end to it anywhere. :kissing_heart:(
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 7 years ago

This sure sounds fishy. The witlesses will do anything to get his kids to become witlesses also--whether Michael wanted it or not (and something tells me that he didn't). The witlesses will lie and forge documents in court to "prove" that Michael wanted them raised witlesses (if he did, then why didn't he raise them witlesses himself?).
And, what is that going to do to his kids? I'm sure they have had plenty of holidays to celebrate, experiences in school that would be forbidden, and lots of fun that they are now going to lose. The same s*** happened to Bizarre--his mother became a witless when he was 12, and they messed up his life after that point. (Yup, that is how he came up with "it will make Jehovah's Witlesses think before they knock" for "Pistol Pistol"). No dating, no college, no class trips of any kind, no holidays, no nothing (except field circus, which is going to be a super whopper of an embarrassment for them).
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

That obnoxious woman almost makes Firpo Carr look good. Who the hell is she?

Randy you do realise you get quite a few mentions in Firpo Carr's recent book:



He seems to like to contrast "white apostates" with faithful (black) Witnesses.
 
Blueeyes54
Blueeyes54 7 years ago

 So where does this leave Michael's conforming to Islam? What? Isn't a divided household another grief for those poor children to bear? And yes, there has always been prejudice against Blacks amongst some JWs. Prejudice is very entrenched in some families and as forgiveness is hard for some people to apply, so is love.
 
Blueeyes54
Blueeyes54 7 years ago

 So where does this leave Michael's conforming to Islam? What? Isn't a divided household another grief for those poor children to bear? And yes, there has always been prejudice against Blacks amongst some JWs. Prejudice is very entrenched in some families and as forgiveness is hard for some people to apply, so is love.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 years ago

Firpo Carr compared Islam to JWs? I have done that myself before, and it is surprising to me that a JW would make the comparison.
 
TMS
TMS 7 years ago

I listened to Firpo's comments. He's repeated the story at least twice. He carefully sets it up as a private conversation between him and Michael. He gives a lot of believable detail, but the actual story doesn't ring true. Why would Michael Jackson be concerned about his children studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses at some time in the indeterminate future when they could have done so anytime. I got the impression that the nanny was a JW also, so a "study" would have been easy to arrange if desired.
tms
 
dissed
dissed 6 years ago

Randy
I grew up with Firp, even dated his sister.
He is brilliant, but I don't understand his need to always sign on with all his accomplishments.
He professes to be of the annointed, even to the point of sending a letter to the GB asking for an application to join with them.
At one time, he felt the spirit was guiding him to assist the sick in the congregation by the laying on of hands, and ridding others of demon possession. Was strongly admonished to stop that behavior. He's apparantly grown past that.
He's always meant well, but was always a little to the left of the org.
I'm still surprised he's somehow still associated with the JW's. Firpo was always a free thinker of sorts, and we know how they like that.
 

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SEMINAR ON BIBLICAL GREEK Taught by Dr. Firpo Carr
by VM44 14 years ago 62 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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VM44
VM44 14 years ago


While surfing the net, I came upon this annoucement.
A seminar on biblical greek to be taught by Dr. Firpo Carr!!!
and it is only $100 too!
Who wants to sign up?
---------------------------------------------------
< http://www.stirinc.org/seminar.htm
STIR Seminars Taught by Dr. Firpo W. Carr
Some scholars and professors of religion use Bibles and other publications produced by the Watch Tower Society. Professor Carr of Amen-Ra Theological Seminary is one of them. In seminars on biblical Hebrew and Greek, sponsored by STIR, and in comparative religion courses, offered by the University of Phoenix, Professor Carr finds Watchtower publications quite useful.
Dr. Jason BeDuhn is the most recent scholar to voice his admiration for The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. He writes: "I have just completed teaching a course for the Religious Studies Department of Indiana University, Bloomington, [U.S.A.]... This is primarily a course in the Gospels. Your help came in the form of copies of The Kingdom interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures which my students used as one of the textbooks for the class. These small volumes were invaluable to the course and very popular with my students. . . . Simply put, it is the best interlinear New
Testament available. I am a trained scholar of the Bible, familiar with the texts and tools in use in modern biblical studies, and, by the way, not a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. But I know a quality publication when I see one, and your 'New World Bible Translation Committee' has done its job well."
Like BeDuhn, Carr believes that the Kingdom Interlinear Translation is an outstanding one, and is just one of the publication produced by the Watch Tower Society that Carr uses in both his university classes and weekend seminars. Below is an example of a sample syllabus.
SEMINAR ON BIBLICAL GREEK
REQUIRED TEXTS New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures--With References (Rbi8-E); The
 Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (int-E); "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and
 Beneficial" (1990), all by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. Additional
 materials will be distributed. Please bring a notebook, paper and pencils.
INSTRUCTOR Firpo W. Carr, BS, MA, Ph.D.
BIOGRAPHY Dr. Carr is a world renowned religious scholar who has been the subject of numerous
 newspaper articles. He has been seen by millions on national television talk shows like "Pacesetters" on KTLA, and "Today's Religion" on CBS. He was also invited to appear on "Prime9News" on KCAL as a Dead Sea Scroll scholar
 who was among the first to examine the secret unpublished Scrolls. He has authored several books and currently teaches
 at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) Extension, and the University of Phoenix.
COST/FEE $100 due by [one week prior to day of seminar], $120 thereafter (no exceptions!). Please make money orders (no checks!) payable to STIR Inc. and mail to address below. Cancellations ($5 fee) must be made in writing prior to the start of class. All fees and costs are tax-deductible to the student.
CURRICULUM During the seminar students will learn the following: (1) part of the Greek alphabet, (2) the ability to read and understand familiar Greek words, (3) the significance of biblical manuscripts that serve as the basis of Bible translations (including the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures) (4) why God's name, JEHOVAH, should be in the Bible. Students will be shown rare video footage of the oldest most complete version of the Hebrew Bible in the world taken by Dr. Carr himself when he traveled behind the former Iron Curtain, along with fascinating slides. Certificates will be issued upon completion of the class to those meeting the fee deadline. Others will receive their certificates in the mail. No audio or video recording will be allowed. Your cooperation is appreciated.
Seminars are held anywhere in the United States and requires a minimum of 20 attendees and a maximum of 25. There are,however, exceptions to the maximum limit when there are 30 or more attendees. With 30 or more, there is a special group rate discount. Please contact us for more details.
 
julien
julien 14 years ago

Wow, it almost tastes like satire-
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

I wonder what Dunsscot (if he were to honestly reflect on this) would think of the standard of this instruction in Biblical Greek!
 
Tina
Tina 14 years ago


uh i wouldn't tout him as 'world reknowned'...people at my university never heard of him. As have many other unis. Just a lot of hype. And where did he get his credentials again?
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


He mispronounces the jewish gods name. He thinks the wt twisted scriptures are hot. Something sounds fishy.
S
 
VM44
VM44 14 years ago


Hi Tina,
Firpo Carr's background may be found here:
< http://www.stirinc.org/firpo.htm
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

My American amigoes, what does "he audited a course in Biblical Greek at the Claremont School of Theology in 1975" mean? I.e. what is "auditing" in this context?
 
VM44
VM44 14 years ago


Stephanus,
Auditing a course means that the student attends the lectures,
but is not enrolled in the course.
--VM44
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago


Thanks VM
Ah, so he didn't sit any exams in either Greek or Hebrew...
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


Seminars are held anywhere in the United States
What...friggin' Alaska?
Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


well...actually it's a minimum of 2000.00; and 20 people.
I don't live my life right.
Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

Sounds like he's only fleecing the JW flock though. Who else would part with $100 of their hard-earned in order to listen to some guy wax lyrical about the NWT, teach you the Greek alphabet, teach you a handful of Greek words and deliver a lecture on the WBTS' pet theory about the "name of God"??
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Come on geeks,
Are YOU jealous because Firpo Carr is a little smarter than YOU?
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Fredhall
Firpo is smarter than most jws. He's going to fleece them by telling them what they want to hear. He's sucking them in. These guys here, on the other hand have seen through him. So then, who is really smarter?
S
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 14 years ago


1. If Carr loves the JW works, why doesn't he take on the real scholars?
2. Even the KIT disputes the NWT in it's text!
Rex
 
RR
RR 14 years ago


Tina
And where did he get his credentials again?
Probably the same place Walter Martin got his from the back of a cereal box
____________________________
I Still Believe ....
 
Rex B13
Rex B13 14 years ago


>Probably the same place Walter Martin got his from the back of a cereal box
Who wrote the definitive book on cults, exposing your hero and his subsequent cronies for their heresies. Those who teach the flock will suffer greater punishment than those they lead to the pit.
Ron Rhodes, Jeff Schwenn and Hank Hannegraf continue the tradition in fine fashion and you are stuck with a man who died in 1916, disgraced and discredited.
Rex
 
Mommie Dark
Mommie Dark 14 years ago


When reading Jason BeDuhn's fulsome praise of JW translations, be be aware that the Society DONATED the books for his class. Have you ever heard any teacher give anything but praise to publishers who give textbooks for a whole college class? Of course he said niceyface things that looked good when blurbed on what amounts to an advert... mutual backscratching is part of the whole incestuous academic bullshit experience.
In this as in all things, CAVEAT EMPTOR and remember, if you keep your mind open enough, your ability to reason will fall out on the pavement to mingle with the gum & dogshit.
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

Ahhhh! Thanks Mommy D - from reading DeBuhn's praise-filled piece on the NWT, I realised he must have an agenda. Even if he were not a Dub, he could still be a liberal theologian trying to weaken the traditional Christian interpretation of the Bible - by lauding a Bible translation roundly condemned by the mainstream, he could be tryiing to simply make the mainstream look bad. Your take on it adds a little more to the mix.
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


REX B13- What real scholars?
Saint Satan- It seems that he is smarter than you. Of course anyone smarter than you when he or she is serving Jehovah.
 

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SEMINAR ON BIBLICAL GREEK Taught by Dr. Firpo Carr
by VM44 14 years ago 62 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Fredhall
Is firpo car serving jehovah?
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


SaintSatan,
He is serving Jehovah.
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 14 years ago


VM44,

Carr received a certificate in computer technology and an associate of science degree in data processing from CDI Anaheim. He received his bachelor's degree in information systems management from the University of San Francisco, and his master's degree in management from the University of Redlands. He obtained his doctorate in computer information science from Pacific Western University (a non-traditional, alternative learning institute), and is a doctoral candidate in the theological/biblical studies program at the same university. Although a distant learning university, it is fully authorized and legally recognized by the State of California as an institution of higher learning.
I'm failing to see any degree that would qualify Carr in Linguistics, especially Greek or Hebrew. He had one course in Greek and audited a class in Hebrew, WOW. I've had courses in German and Spanish, am I an expert in the intricate meanings of these languages now?
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Yerusalyim,
Don't worry about Carr, worry about yourself.
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Yer
You are as qualified to teach jws spanish and german as firpo is to teach them greek and hebrew. You can charge them $100 per person too. Get your own web site too, just like he did.
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


SaintSatan,
Are smart enough to get your own web-site?
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago

Hey guys, firpo is a jw!!!!!!! See here http://www.stirinc.org/qjwb.htm
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago

Whooppppppeeeeee!!!!!
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Fredhall
Could you rephrase the question? It doesn't seem to make sense.
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago

Never mind SaintSatan.
 
Kent
Kent 14 years ago


You're sure this isn't a seminar on divorces and wife abuse? I thought that was the speciality of this asshole.....
Yakki Da
Kent
I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:http://watchtower.observer.org
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Kent,
Don't be an asshole! If Fipro Carr abused his wife then he should be removed from his congregation.
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago


SaintSatan,
Are smart enough to get your own web-site?
He might not have a website, but I do:http://jsefton.users1.50megs.com/fred.htm
http://jsefton.users1.50megs.com/futurefred.htm
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago


Kent,
Don't be an asshole! If Fipro Carr abused his wife then he should be removed from his congregation.
If it is the right thing before Jehovah to do this, Fred, then why do you condemn Bill Bowen, who is trying to get precisely this happening ,along with the removal of paedophiles from the congregation?
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Stephanus
That's really funny.
 
Kent
Kent 14 years ago


I'm amazed, Stephanus. One of the few errors of this kind from the ol' alley-cat!
Yakki Da
Kent
I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:http://watchtower.observer.org
 
Utopian Reformist
Utopian Reformist 14 years ago


Friends:
Ignore FredHall (whom I will refer to from now on as LeadBall) and his trivial attempts to antagonize everyone. His goal is to interrupt, cloud the issues, distract, confuse thoughts, misquote, incite anger, provoke hostility, annoy, babble incessantly and pester everyone to death.
Simply bypass his weak and feeble musings and continue your intelligent discussion sans the disservices of LeadBall.
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

Awww, but I love putting his thoughts up on my webpage!
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 14 years ago


What's the deal with all the Latin "signatures"?
Here's one for ya...
De Espresso Liber
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Utopian
One thing that fred is, that you didn't mention, is an INFORMER.
 

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while surfing the net, i came upon this annoucement.. a seminar on biblical greek to be taught by dr. firpo carr!!!.
who wants to sign up?.
< http://www.stirinc.org/seminar.htm.



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SEMINAR ON BIBLICAL GREEK Taught by Dr. Firpo Carr
by VM44 14 years ago 62 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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Francois
Francois 14 years ago


A. If Firpo Carr has a legitimate Ph.D. from an accredited univeristy, I am the Virgin Mary.
B. Isn't naked marketing banned from this site?
Francois
 
Maximus
Maximus 14 years ago


People, people, people!
The man has to pay for his tuition. Pacific Western University insists on a $100 deposit if you apply to get a doctorate or whatever online.
This is not even an audit, folks. It's a correspondence thing!
From: http://www.pwu-ca.edu/home.asp?ID=5
[lifted from the APPLY ONLINE page]
You have the right to cancel this agreement, including any equipment or other goods and services included in the agreement, and receive a full refund (less a deposit or application fee not to exceed $100) until midnight of the eighth business day after you have received the first lesson of a correspondence course.
According to the California Education Code, if a student cancels a course, the student must receive a refund of 100 percent of the amount paid for institutional charges, less a deposit or application fee not to exceed $100. The cancellation period extends until the eighth business day after the first lesson was mailed to the student, if that lesson was sent first-class mail, postage prepaid, with a certificate of mailing.
Regulatory Cancellation Policy
According to State Regulations, Pacific Western must mail the first lesson and the initial correspondence material to the student within seven days after PWU accepts the student for admission. The student shall have the right to cancel the agreement and receive a full refund before the first lesson and initial correspondence material are received. Cancellation is effective on the date written notice of cancellation is mailed. Pacific Western will make the refund within 30 days of cancellation. If Pacific Western sent the first lesson and materials before an effective cancellation notice was received, Pacific Western shall make a refund within 30 days after the student's return of the correspondence material.
Pacific Western will mail all of the lessons and other material to the student if the student (1) has fully paid for the program and (2) requests all of the material in writing after having received the first lesson and initial correspondence material. If Pacific Western mails the balance of the material as the student requests, Pacific Western will remain obligated to provide the other educational services it agreed to provide, such as responses to student inquiries, student and faculty interaction, and evaluation and comment on lessons submitted by the student but shall not be obligated to pay any refund after all of the lessons and material are mailed.
© 1998 Pacific Western University. All Rights Reserved.
:B. Isn't naked marketing banned from this site?
Francois, if YOU are marketing naked, yes it's banned. Although Joelbear may have some casual interest ...
Please don't start a thread as to whom you think should NOT be banned.
Max
Dubito, ergo sum
(For Yerusalyim, whose missing letter bugs me every time I see it. It's plural Hebrew.)
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


And a Magnum Plaustrum Parum Animal Firmat to you too Maximus!!!
Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
Ediated for speeling as usuial
 
Maximus
Maximus 14 years ago


Thanks for the compliment about my Magnum Plaustrum, but aren't you spreading the dung rather than cleaning it up?
Oh, are you saying 'the too-little animal secures the great wagon'? Plaustrum sometimes refers to the Big Dipper.
Max
 
Maximus
Maximus 14 years ago


<posting bug struck>
probably looking for dungbeetle
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 14 years ago


Maximusk,
Haven't seen ya in a while, WELCOME HOME DUDE.
OK who the hell stole my missing letter? It's plural hebrew for God's sake!
 De Espresso Liber
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Maximus,
I don't how in the hell you was an overseer. Firpo Carr have nothing to hide about his tuition, look at "firpocarr.com".
 
VM44
VM44 14 years ago


firpocarr.com is gone!!!
Google still has an archive of the one and only page that was at the site,
at least for the time being. Google could purge it at anytime.
Kent, you mentioned something about divorce and wife abuse and Dr Carr,
what info do you have? and what are your sources?
Does anyone know if Firpo Carr is an elder?
--VM44
P.S. Good to see you are back Maximus!
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


VM44,
Why do you call him and find out his Ph.D? And ask him if he is an Elder?
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

What's the story Fred? Why do you defend old Fibro-Carr so enthusiastically?
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Stephanus,
Why do many go after him? Is it because he a little smarter than YOU?
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


ROTFLM f----g AO
(((((Maximus))))
Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

He's certainly smarter than you, Fred, but that's no achievement!
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Stephanus,
The only achievement came your parents is when they flushed you down the toilet.
 
accuracy
accuracy 14 years ago


Sibboleth, shibboleth! Yerusalyim, if your name is supposed to be the Hebrew for "Jerusalem," someone also replaced your shin with a sin (talking about Hebrew letters here, not body parts or their actions). The correct form is "yerushalayim." Which is dual, not just plural. Are there two of you?
Or does your name not mean "Jerusalem"?
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

You're a little confused here, Fred (like that's an unusual occurrence!) You must have it mixed up with the time my brother threw me in hte compost pit...
 
Yerusalyim
Yerusalyim 14 years ago


Two of me? Well, I am a Gemini. Hey this was how I saw it spelled way back when. If you've done any reading of Hebrew transliterations you'll realize that there are no standards. While you're probably correct, It stays as is. STOP DUMPING ON ME< GEEESH
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
 
VM44
VM44 14 years ago


Bringing this to the top because I want to ask people in general,
and Kent in particular, if they have any additional information
about Firpo Carr.
--VM44
 
dungbeetle
dungbeetle 14 years ago


oh..uh..you mean there was a topic for this thread once? [8>]
Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 14 years ago

Not anymore. Pay attention, DB!
 

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while surfing the net, i came upon this annoucement.. a seminar on biblical greek to be taught by dr. firpo carr!!!.
who wants to sign up?.
< http://www.stirinc.org/seminar.htm.



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SEMINAR ON BIBLICAL GREEK Taught by Dr. Firpo Carr
by VM44 14 years ago 62 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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VM44
VM44 9 years ago

bttt because of the recent Firpo Carr thread. --VM44
 
badboy
badboy 9 years ago

WASN;T HE THE spokesman for MICHAEL JACKSON?
PROFESSOR,IS HE?
 
VM44
VM44 9 years ago

Not really, Firpo Carr just happened to be around when reporters were looking for someone to say something about Jackson. He obliged the reporters, and said things in an attempt to support Michael, but he was not authorized by the Jackson family to do so.
It got to the point where the family asked Firpo publicly to stop talking to the reporters in Michael's behalf.
Firpo then appeared on a local KFI640AM radio show ever Friday in a segment called "Friday's With Firpo" in which he would give his opinions and spin on the weekly events of the Michael Jackson trial. After several weeks doing that another radio station offered Firpo his own radio show one day a week. As far as I know he still is doing that.
Firpo has a very slick way with words. Too slick though, he sounds like someone you shouldn't trust too far with anything of importance.
--VM44
 

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Topic Summary
while surfing the net, i came upon this annoucement.. a seminar on biblical greek to be taught by dr. firpo carr!!!.
who wants to sign up?.
< http://www.stirinc.org/seminar.htm.



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Firpo Carr on the Governing Body and the Black Muslims
by Dogpatch 12 years ago 5 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw friends
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Dogpatch
Dogpatch 12 years ago




Was There A Secret Black Man On The Governing Body?
Review Of "A History Of Jehovah's Witnesses: From A Black American Perspective"
 by Randall Watters
Here is one book that is written from a unique perspective. It is entitled, A History of Jehovah's Witnesses: From a Black American Perspective by Firpo Carr, Ph.D. (Scholar Technological Institute of Research, Inc., 1992). The author is a black JW from South Central Los Angeles who claims to have a Ph.D. and is a full-time pioneer. His parents say he was a child prodigy. Carr says he is completing his doctoral work in theology, but does not say where (the Watchtower forbids a Witness to study at formal theological schools. It also unofficially forbids the writing of a book like this!). Carr attempts to document similarities between the Black Muslim movement and the Watchtower movement. He argues that Wallace D. Fard, founder of the Black Muslims, was influenced by the teachings of J.F. Rutherford, second president of the Watchtower Society. He quotes the book Elijah Muhammad: Religious Leader by Malu Halasa: "Though Fard may have embellished or exaggerated the details of his life, the origins of his teachings were not quite so mysterious. The Nation [of Islam] drew its principles not only from the Koran but also from the Bible, books about Freemasonry, and the philosophy of Joseph F. ('Judge :smile: Rutherford, leader of Jehovah 's Witnesses." (Emphasis added by Carr) Yet Carr remains unconvincing in drawing parallels between the Watchtower and the Nation of Islam. Aside from the strict monotheism of both religions as well as their revolt against the churches of Christendom, there appear to be few similarities. So what's the point? Carr begs the question. Interestingly, Carr does quote a few of the passages from The Watch Tower in C.T. Russell's time regarding the ridiculous views of the black man they held, such as how the black man would slowly turn white (sound like the Mormons, anyone?) After quoting a number of these and attempting to excuse Russell's ignorance, he says:
Shamefully, critics have misquoted this passage from the Society's literature in an attempt to misinform people, particularly blacks, who are interested in the teachings of the Bible as understood by the Witnesses. (See "Blacks and the Watchtower," Bethel Ministries Newsletter, July/August 1988, page 1, column 3, pp. 1 & 2.) The only shame belongs on the organization who would print such racist nonsense in the first place! The claim of "misquoting" by Carr does not stand up, nor does he demonstrate how my article is a misquote. Carr attempts to answer why there have been no blacks on the Watchtower's prestigious Governing Body, yet does not answer the question. His most astounding claim is that there WAS a black man on the Governing Body?William K. Jackson! Picking myself up off the floor, I wondered how he came to this conclusion, having known Bill Jackson from my six years at Bethel (1974-1980) and he was as white as a sheet with no black features whatsoever. Carr's only defense was that Bill Jackson "openly stated that he was black." That is news to all of us who worked at Bethel. Perhaps Carr needs a second book to correct the incredible fantasies in his first one, if the Watchtower doesn't disfellowship him first. -Editor.
from http://www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar.htm
Randy
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 12 years ago

Interesting Randy -- thankyou
 
Amazing
Amazing 12 years ago


Hi Randy,
This is great!
That is news to all of us who worked at Bethel. Perhaps Carr needs a second book to correct the incredible fantasies in his first one, if the Watchtower doesn't disfellowship him first. -Editor.
I wonder if Firpo know about the young new Sam Hard, who I understand is black. It is fascinating to watch Firpo on TV regarding the Michael Jackson case. Thanks for the great post. - Jim W.
 
orangefatcat
orangefatcat 12 years ago


Randy I read with deep interest the portion of Blacks and the WatchTower.
I was appauled and at the same time enlightened to the fact of How Blacks have been or rather not been treated in the WTS Organization. I can't believe how terribly narrowminded and backward Russell was when it came to the Blacks. Then it still filtered down to the days of Rutherford. And also in was it 1952 or 54, that still a level of prejudice existed. The part where the Society never translated the "Bible Aid to Understanding" into the hispainic language. God how disgusting and utterly amazed am I by this. It leaves me in a state of shock.
I really never took note that the Governing Body is made up of White men. I wonder how many a JW would find this to be absoultely unbelievable. About their feelings towards Blacks and Hispanics.
I at this point feel utterly ashamed that I was ever a Jehovah's witness. The proffessed Organization that exudes love to all colours and ethnic groups. I would be embarrased to even tell anyone that I was ever a JW.
Thank you so much Randy for sharing this with us. I do have a question though. How is it that you were able to find the Watchtowers mentioned. They are not in cirulation, so does someone reproduce them and If so would you please let me know.
You can contact me at Orangefatcat@hotmail.com
Eagerly awaiting your response
Orangefatcat aka Terry Dranitsaris.
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 12 years ago


As I say Randy, I suspect when the cheques of his latest 'client' clear, we will be assailed by a bestselling book expounding the inside story of how he saved a musical empire by sheer intellectual power. This man will be a seriously rich semi-Jehovah's Witness in a few months.
HS
 
Draconian
Draconian 12 years ago

Where does he get a name like "Firpo". Was he the fifth Marx Brother after Harpo, Chico, Groucho, and Gummo?
 

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Jehovah's Witnesses: The African American Enigma -- A Contemporary Study
by Brummie 11 years ago 7 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Brummie
Brummie 11 years ago


Has anyone read this book? Sorry if its already been discussed, I missed it and "search" doesnt work for me here. Anyway, there are some interesting points ...
alt
Jehovah's Witnesses: The African American Enigma -- A Contemporary Study

By Firpo W. Carr, Ph.d.
228 pages. Softcover. "Brand New" condition.
Dr. Firpo Carr is an active Jehovah's Witness, and has been for over 35 years. He served as a regular pioneer for over 20 of those 35 years. He has been called "the world authority" on African American Jehovah's Witnesses. Dr. Carr is an advocate of minority rights, a Bible scholar, and a prolific writer. While studying issues relating to Jehovah's Witnesses in Cuba, Communist Leader Fidel Castro gave special permission to televise an interview of Carr, as well as allowed Carr to give a televised speech to the people of Cuba. Carr also has had material published by the Black Panthers, and he has spoken at public support rallies held for Michael Jackon by the "Islamic Hope Conference" (Nation of Islam).
Counted among Carr's close friends is Samuel F. Herd, the first member of the GOVERNING BODY of Jehovah's Witnesses who is "obviously" of African descent. (Why the designation of "obvious" is discussed in this book by Carr.) Carr and Herd have known each other for nearly as long as Carr has been a JW (over 35 years). Photographs of both Samuel F. Herd and Dr. Firpo Carr can be viewed on pages 24 and 25, respectively, of the January 15, 2001 issue of the "Watchtower" magazine.

Jehovah's Witnesses: The African American Enigma -- A Contemporary Study is absolutely informative and thoroughly enjoyable for anyone with an interest in Jehovah's Witnesses and the WatchTower Society.
Chapter One, "Special Needs" of Black Witnesses, evaluates the seeming lack of sensitivity of the Watchtower Society to the needs of Black JWs. Subheadings include: "Is the Society Eurocentric?", "Whites a 'Wicked Race'?", "Does the Society Recognize Historic Black Figures?", "Afrocentric Watchtower Publications?", "Separate People Separate Needs", "Black Witness, White Territory", etc. Interesting tidbits include the disclosure that the Society has previously had separate "branch offices" within the United States to serve Black JWs, as well as one other ethnic group.
Chapter Two, A Black Man On The Governing Body includes a subheading entitled, "What Took So Long?", as well as a subheading in which Carr explains how he knew Samuel Herd would be appointed to the JW GOVERNING BODY before it even had been decided.
Chapter Three, Shadow Nation- Witness Influence On The Nation of Islam. This is an extremely interesting chapter in which Dr. Carr discloses that every major figure in the history of the Nation of Islam has had intimate contact with Jehovah's Witnesses at some point in their lives:
Muhammad Fard, founder of the Nation of Islam, was a fan and student of Joseph F. Rutherford, the second President of the WatchTower Society. Fard openly encouraged his NOI followers to read WatchTower literature and listen to "Judge Rutherford's" radio tirades against all societal institutions. NOI doctrine was heavily influenced by WatchTower doctrine.
Elijah Muhammad, the second NOI leader, openly praised Charles Taze Russell (WatchTower founder) and J. F. Rutherford, as well as WatchTower doctrine.
Malcolm X's formative years were shaped by WatchTower doctrine when he attended Kingdom Hall meetings with his Mother and siblings. Malcolm later renewed his relationship with the WatchTower Society when he studied with a JW while in prison.
Louis Farrakhan's mother was a JW, and he regularly attended meetings at the Kingdom Hall as a youngster. Farrakhan's doctrine is heavily shaped by WatchTower doctrine.
Khallid Abdul Muhammad, one time NOI spokesman and New Black Panther Party leader, was reared by a JW aunt, who took him to meetings at the Kingdom Hall.
There's much more, including info on Michael Jackson's family and a listing of African American JWs who hold very important positions in Watchtower Society hierarchy.
DURING THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS OR SO, DR. CARR HAS APPEARED ON NUMEROUS CNN, MSNBC, AND OTHER NEWS PROGRAMS ON BEHALF OF MICHAEL JACKSON AND THE JACKSON FAMILY. CARR HAS REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS BOTH JACKO'S "SPIRITUAL ADVISOR", AND AS THE JACKSON FAMILY'S "SPIRITUAL ADVISOR".
Its for sale on ebay at the mo!
 
kaykay_mp
kaykay_mp 11 years ago


awesome. I'm so there.

laters
kaykay_mp
 
Brummie
Brummie 11 years ago


Really? Are you going to buy the book? Its $15 on ebay!
I found the Witness influence on the nation of Islam interesting but this disclosure is also very interesting:
Chapter One, "Special Needs" of Black Witnesses, evaluates the seeming lack of sensitivity of the Watchtower Society to the needs of Black JWs. Subheadings include: "Is the Society Eurocentric?", "Whites a 'Wicked Race'?", "Does the Society Recognize Historic Black Figures?", "Afrocentric Watchtower Publications?", "Separate People Separate Needs", "Black Witness, White Territory", etc. Interesting tidbits include the disclosure that the Society has previously had separate "branch offices" within the United States to serve Black JWs, as well as one other ethnic group.
Are people allowed to suggest the Society lacks sensitivity?Plus, I didnt know about the seperate branches within the USA to serve Black JWS!!
Firpo Carr sounds like an interesting fella!
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 11 years ago

I think Fripo's view on himself and world is nicely summed up in this sentence at the beginning, "Carr explains how he knew Samuel Herd would be appointed to the JW GOVERNING BODY before it even had been decided. " Firpo has a way of writing and thinking, in which he is the inventor of everything. He discovered some papyrii, he was the first ever to see them, he was treated in such and such a manner, he did this and that, he said so and so - he is so egocentric that it completely drowns the fractions of good stuff in his books.
 
under74
under74 11 years ago

yeah, listen to OldHippie.
Carr is a nut. I saw him several times on cable news as "the Jackson family spokesman." He says he's getting a PHD in theology although he also says he's a stonch JW. He totally tries to re-write JW history in all his books. Don't buy anything unless you want a laugh.
 
lonelysheep
lonelysheep 11 years ago

I didn't read it, but thank you for this info, Brummie.
 
Gill
Gill 11 years ago


It seems that the African Americans are more drawn to fundamentalist and evangelical religions. But could that be because so many fundamentalist/evangelicals and as we also call them in the UK, 'happy clappy' religions seem to have their origins in the US.
I, and this is a personal view, but I always find the calling of 'brother' or 'sister' makes me cringe as well as the praying in public before meals, the person who feels the need to call out 'AAAAAAAAYYMen!" But I don't know if this is just my English upbringing, making me feel that way. Friends who are of these fundamentalist religions, seem to need to insert 'thanking the Lord' into most sentences just as JWs are forever saying 'if Jehovah allows' etc.
Maybe I was never meant to be religious.
What I'd be interested to know however, as my black friends I went to school with have not followed in their parents fundamentalist/BA or evangelical footsteps, is that a general trend in the US as well. Are younger black people falling away from these faiths?
 
Brummie
Brummie 11 years ago


What I'd be interested to know however, as my black friends I went to school with have not followed in their parents fundamentalist/BA or evangelical footsteps, is that a general trend in the US as well. Are younger black people falling away from these faiths?
Yes I'd be interested in to know those things too! I'm similar to you, I dont like the aaaaymens shouted out lol
lonelysheep, you're welcome :wink:
Thanks hippie & under74, I can see now how he would misrepresent all the facts and spin a big yarn! I wont bother with the book, $15 can be spent better, like on a pouch of tobacco :smile:
 

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Firpo Carr is a Prophet
by RR 6 years ago 2 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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RR
RR 6 years ago

Browsing the net, apparently there was an interview with Jehovah's Witness Firpo Carr, here he states:

"I've been called everything from a visionary, to a prophet, to a holy man," says Carr , a former computer engineer with IBM and systems analyst at the LAPD , and the author of books such as Are Gays Really `Gay'? - a bold thesis whose chapter-headings include: "Benjamite Buggery" and "What Constitutes a Cure?"Earlier this year Firpo turned up in Bahrain wearing a thobe tunic, giving joint lectures on comparative religion with Michael Jackson's brother Jermaine, an orthodox Muslim.
I'd been dealing with Dr Carr via his office in LA - premises, he'd said, which were "not suitable" for a meeting.Instead he agreed to talk in my hotel room in West Hollywood.
I'd expected a soberly dressed zealot carrying a pile of Watchtowers (the Jehovah Witness's proselytising magazine) but Carr arrives in jeans, a loose-fitting Tahitian shirt and a Walkman. Firpo - who is 50, but looks 10 years younger - is bright, engaging, and good-humoured.As you might expect from a collector of historic dictionaries, there's a slight preciousness about his language - he's fond of phrases like "if you will", and prefers "refrain", or "cease" in places where, for most people, a simple "stop" would do.
On his website is a partial picture that reads "A prophet's Warning":

He also referrs to Former WItness Jerry Bergman:
"Because he is a low life," says Carr, "and he thinks I am the Antichrist." Bergman, whose website has a somewhat hysterical tone, does make one interesting point in relation to Carr's defence of Jackson: as a Jehovah's Witness, Carr is not supposed to frequent people who, like Jackson, have been disfellowshipped.
http://www.stirinc.org/home.html
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 6 years ago

one thing Carr is not is a "prophet", I even thought he was no longer a Dub after losing his Dub in good standing status because of his claptrap writings.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 6 years ago


I've been called everything from a visionary, to a prophet, to a holy man," says Carr

The WBT$ must love this guy..Not!..
 An egotistical JW Bullshit Artist they can`t shut up..
 The WBT$ deserves him..
 LOL!!..
 .............................  ...OUTLAW






 

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The plight of the black man
by RR 14 years ago 24 Replies latest 14 years ago   social current
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RR
RR 14 years ago


Firpo Carr's latest book is: "Jehovah's Witnesses:
the African-American Enigma- A Contemporary Study",
LOS ANGELES- While they are probably best known for their door-to-door
proselytizing, author Firbo Carr reports that Jehovah's Witnesses have impacted
the African-American community in ways people don't realize.
In fact, in his just released book- "Jehovah's Witnesses: the African-American
Enigma- A Contemporary Study"- Carr writes that the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X,
and Muhammad Ali all have connections to this American born religion.
"The Nation of Islam does acknowledge the connection but in hushed tones," said
Carr. "They know the influence Witnesses have had on them."
Carr, who holds a doctorate in religious studies, will discuss (actually
discussed now of course) his new book at 7 P.M. Friday July 19, at the talking
Drum Forum at the Harambee Farmer's Market located at Crenshaw Boulevard and
Slauson Avenue.
In his book, Carr writes that Wallace D Fard [also known as Fard Muhammad],
founder of the Nation of Islam, was apparently influenced Noble Drew Ali, who
culled information for his organization from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ali founded the Moorish Science Temple of America in New Jersey in 1913. It
collapsed after his death in 1939, and Fard is suspected of being one of Ali's
followers.
Carr said, Fard's Nation of Islam theology was created using tenets from the
Bible, the Koran, and Jehovah's Witnesses teaching tracts.
Fard even urged his followers to get radios to listen to speeches of Joseph F.
Rutherford, leader of the Witnesses, writes Carr
The Malcolm X connection to the Witnesses was even stronger, said the author.
"His mother and father were 'Garveyites' " explained the religious scholar, who
said after Malcolm's father died, his mother took her children to Jehovah's
Witnesses halls.
And then in Norfolk Prison Colony, Malcolm X studied the Bible under Jehovah's
Witness Prescott Adams.
"Garveyites" are individuals who followed the teachings of early 20th century
Black Nationalist leader Marcus Garvey.
Muhammad Ali also came into close personal contact with a Jehovah's Witness,
Carr said.
When the boxing champion refused the draft based on his religious beliefs, he
used the services of Jehovah's Witness lawyer Hayden C. Covington to help win
his case.
Covington was the Watchtower attorney who argued Witnesses' ministerial
deferment cases before the United States Supreme Court. In 1955, he had argued
and won more cases before the nation's highest court than any other man in U.S.
history.
So just who are the Witnesses, and what do they believe?. Carr said there are
an estimated 25 to 30 percent who are African-Americans.
"Witnesses are probably closer to primitive Christians; meaning that they are
closer to the [teachings] of ancient Christians of the 1st century" said Carr,
who himself was exposed to both witness and Baptist theology as a child, and
has traveled around the world studying religious philosophies.
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower and Bible and Tract Society was launched in 1887
by Pittsburgh Bible teacher Charles Taze Russell.
People of African descent began to trickle into the organization around the
turn of the century, and came in droves during the 1950s and 1960s, said Carr.
"What they offered that no other religion did was Heaven here on earth. Black
people, especially during the tumultuous 60s were going through a lot", said
Carr. Many didn't like the two choices the majority of other religions offered-
"Heaven" or "Hell."
"Surprisingly a great number didn't want to go to Heaven [or Hell]", said Carr.
"The Witnesses say you can stay here on earth in paradise. The scripture they
often quote is Matthew 5:5- "The meek shall inherit the earth.
"That had a pull with us. We are an agrarian people. Coming from Africa, we
lived off the land, and the [Witness philosophy] struck a chord in the hearts
of black America".
In addition to the concept of an earthly paradise, Witnesses do not believe in
the concept of the equality of the Trinity- The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
They accept that Jesus is the Son of God, but repudiate that the two are the
same. "The Witnesses are an 'open secret' " said Carr. "There right under are
noses in the black communities across the nation. They impact our community in
a subtle fashion more than any other religion. They've been a force for good
without receiving acknowledgement for it, without being thanked. They visit
30,000 people in prison annually".
Additionally, nationwide, Witnesses' legal battles for the right not to salute
the flag have paved the way for people to enjoy this freedom today. Carr said
that among the untrue myths about the Witnesses are that they are an austere
people who don't want to have fun because they don't celebrate holidays.
So what does Carr expect people to take away from his book and lectures?. "An
understanding of what has drawn black leaders to the Witnesses in the first
place," he said. "The fact that they are tapping in on our black collective
psyche. That's why black leaders and thinkers have been drawn to us. It appeals
to blacks to have a paradise on earth; to have an entire world look like
Africa, because Africa has everything. That is the subconscious appeal."
"The reason that they don't celebrate holidays [like Easter and Christmas] is
because of there pagan origins," said Carr. "They want to practice the purity
of scripture."
------------------------
"Southwest Wave" dated 7/17/02 in the "Word & Worship" section, p. A13
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


RR,

Firpo Carr is the man!! And his book should be good to read.
 
RR
RR 14 years ago

Freddie, where you been hiding? Someone told me you were roadkill!
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


RR,

I think I was here on Friday. Do you miss me RR?
 
RR
RR 14 years ago

Freddie, I have your face as my screen saver, so you're always there with me.
 
Dutchie
Dutchie 14 years ago


RR, I also understand that when blacks began to come into the organization in great numbers in the '50's and '60's, they weren't exactly welcomed with open arms. Many of the white brothers resented their being there and some of them even left the organizstion because of blacks coming in. Sometimes, even congregational "privileges" were withheld from blacks.
This organization was started by midwestern white men with prejudices of their own, but after all, numbers, wherever they come from, are numbers. But it took awhile for blacks to be fully integrated into the organization.
 
RR
RR 14 years ago

I agree. And although there are several Blacks and hispanics who site on the board of directors of the various corporatiosn formed a few years ago. The Governing Body to my knowledge is still "white".
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 14 years ago


I heard that Ted Jaracz channels the spirit of Sammy Davis Jr. - doesn't that count?
"Hey babe, it's all on a spiritual level, dig?"
 
outnfree
outnfree 14 years ago

I never heard that Hayden Covington was involved in Ali's draft resisting court case. Is this true?
 
RR
RR 14 years ago

Yep it's true, but they left him out of the "ALI" movie :smile: Of all the cases he tried, he lost Ali's I smell conspiracy. ... lol
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 14 years ago

Nickle please.... this whitey needs a break from insane people with keyboards.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 14 years ago


Those who have not read Dr. Bergman's articles on Firpo Carr need to do so.
http://www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar2.htm
There are oodles of other articles at Freeminds dealing with racism and the Watchtower Society, under "African-American."
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


for so many blacks the org provides something that "THIS SYSTEM" CAN'T many feel

the conversations i have had with black bro esp elder/co/do/ bethelites have been very interesting esp if no white bro were around.

thanks for the info found by this writer Carr
 
Farkel
Farkel 14 years ago


Carr is a sue-crazy pimp who (I've been told) has a mail-order degree.
Farkel
 
bigboi
bigboi 14 years ago


Well, what attracted me to the Witnesses definitely wasn't the possiblity of living off the land forever. Shit, that sounds too much like plantation days. I ain't even tryna see that shit again.
ONE...
bigboi
Edited by - bigboi on 5 August 2002 19:8:32
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago


Kenneson - Bergman leaves out alot of important information about Carr.

Farkel - You heard wrong. And where is your degree?
 
abbagail
abbagail 14 years ago


You guys are so funny! -- That was an interesting article. I never knew about Ali, etc.
I read on SIlent Lambs that the WTS wrote at some point in time that if blacks would pray they could become white. Is that a direct quote from the society? If anybody's got it, I'd love to see it in print.
Thanks/Grits
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


"Rev. William Draper, once black, is now white in answer to prayer." (Watchtower Magazine 10/1/1900, p..2707)
"White people living in China eventually produce Chinese offspring -- without intermarrying -- due to the influence of soil and climate." (Watchtower Magazine 7/15/1902, p.3043)

########

JUST THINK ALL this is suppose to be written as a result of being Spirit Directed
 
jozb5
jozb5 14 years ago


Grits,
Go Here http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/racism.htm
You'll find what you're looking for.
Josie
 
JT
JT 14 years ago


Rev. William Draper, once black, is now white in answer to prayer." (Watchtower Magazine 10/1/1900, p..2707) </P> <P>
"White people living in China eventually produce Chinese offspring -- without intermarrying -- due to the influence of soil and climate." (Watchtower Magazine 7/15/1902, p.3043)

>JUST THINK ALL this is suppose to be written as a result of being Spirit Directed
 

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Firpo Carr's Homepage
by slimboyfat 9 years ago 42 Replies latest 4 months ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 years ago

This post has been rated  click to view
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 years ago

How could I forget?
His biggest claim to fame, of course, is as "friend of the family" whenever Michael Jackson comes under the media spotlight: he can always been spotted edging his way into the range of the camera on CNN and such like.
Slim
 
chiddy
chiddy 9 years ago

strange guy , read a lot about him, some sort of prima donna
 
Atlantis
Atlantis 9 years ago

Click on the word (President), on Firpo's website and notice the following:
"While visiting Cuba, the Cuban government, with the blessings of Fidel Castro himself, aired Dr. Carr?s 45-minute lecture on racism in the dictionary, as well in American culture, nationwide."
Nevada-
 
Kaput
Kaput 9 years ago

He is not pleased that the Watchtower used the word "niggerly" for instance, and thinks that frowning on beards is especially stupid from a black person's perspective.
slimboyfat --
Are you sure the word isn't "niggardly"? And if so, this Carr fellow needs to invest in a dictionary.
 
frankiespeakin
frankiespeakin 9 years ago

That guy is totally full of himself. I read his essay on Blood and it seems he never finished it, typical WT type of reasoning he should be embarassed not proud of himself, his stupidity shows thru out his web site.
 
grey matters
grey matters 9 years ago

I met this person once at a Kingdom Hall when he was a JW 13 or 14 years ago. I heard that he had gotten DF'd when he published something the WTS didn't like. Was that the case? If so, is he back "in" now?
 
AlanF
AlanF 9 years ago

slimboyfat said:
: For those who don't know - who is Firpo Carr?
You yourself said it best:
: He is a Witness apologist-cum-self-publicist of the first order.
Carr has been promoting himself for many years. He's obviously very intelligent, but also very self-serving. I spoke to his grandmother a few years ago, to gain information, and she was very coy. Pretty much admitted everything I set forth to her, but was not forthcoming with new information.
Carr is on his fourth marriage and has one daughter, I believe (could be wrong; it's been years since I've thought about Carr). All wives have been JWs. No one seems to know how he's managed to keep himself in good standing, except by observing that when he goes to a new area, he manages to flim-flam the locals so extensively that when they finally figure out the sort of charlatan they're up against, they throw in the towel and do what they can to get him to move on. Apparently Carr has managed to get a number of local elders involved in a variety of questionable schemes, so that they can't expose Carr without shooting themselves in the foot. And he's a good deal smarter than most, so he keeps a couple of steps ahead of most elders.
: He has many interests and has written on subjects as diverse as racist words in the dictionary; why the divine name should be in the NT; a history of Jehovah's Witnesses from a black perspective; homosexuality; and the "black Holocaust" in Nazi Germany.
Yes, and these books are, for the most part, at best naive, and at worst self-serving propaganda designed mainly to promote Carr as a JW apologist.
: I like to think he is the Witness apologist equivalent to Jerry Bergman on the apostate scene, in that his books are largely self-published on a wide range of topics about which he has a lot of enthusiasm
That's where the comparison ends.
: but not a lot of expertise.
LOL! Bergman has his faults and has written some criticisms of JWs that I disagree with, but Carr is in a class by himself in lack of expertise.
: On second thoughts that is not fair: he is a better writer than Bergman,
I think not. You want examples from Carr's books?
: and has some more perceptive insights to offer too.
He certainly has some of those, especially in his JW Blacks from an American Perspective. Too lazy to look up the title; it might be a little off.
: He tends to keep his distance from other Witness apologists such as Flemings, Herle, Foster and so on.
It's the other way round. They keep their distance from him, because they know what he is.
: I don't think he attended the Witness apologist forum, for instance. He is more of a one man band, who is not without criticism of certain Witness policies toward blacks. He is not pleased that the Watchtower used the word "niggerly" for instance, and thinks that frowning on beards is especially stupid from a black person's perspective.
One of Carr's better observations.
: One interesting controversy he provoked was with Randy at freeminds over the issue of whether William Jackson, who was a member of the governing body, was black. Randy claims that photos clearly show he was white as a sheet.
Jackson was definitely white. Carr is wrong, and has no idea what he's talking about.
: Edgar Foster, one of the more astute and considerate in the Witness "apologist" camp (if one can so label him)
I agree. Foster is among the few JW apologists who carefully steers away from the stupider of JW doctrines, and always maintains an even keel. This has been true in the 13 years since I met him online. I have a good deal of respect for Foster (and Herle), as opposed to morons like Flemings, Couture, Kidd, etc.
: wrote a very flattering review of Carr's latest book on blacks and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Foster is liable to get himself in trouble with JW central.
: Foster is himself black and recently had published a scholarly monograph on Tertullian's Christology.
Interesting.
AlanF
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 years ago

Alan F,
This is Foster's book. It was his master's thesis:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Angelomorphic-Christology-Exegesis-Tertullians-Adversus/dp/0761833145/sr=1-2/qid=1158823262/ref=sr_1_2/202-6604334-7553415?ie=UTF8&s=books
He is now working on his PhD, a study of Lactantius' theology.
Slim
 
VM44
VM44 9 years ago


 
VM44
VM44 9 years ago

Firpo Carr does not mention his early education at Control Data. --VM44

Later in 1979, after a quart of circumstance, he found himself enrolled in computer courses at Control Data Institute in Anaheim, California. This suited him well since he envisioned some day that Bible scholarship and computer technology would someday be married. He wanted to be at the wedding. After finishing at the top of his class, Control Data Corporation (CDC) hired him immediately. Less than a year later, IBM recruited him.
Education
Carr received a certificate in computer technology and an associate of science degree in data processing from CDI Anaheim. He received his bachelor's degree in information systems management from the University of San Francisco, and his master's degree in management from the University of Redlands. He obtained his doctorate in computer information science from Pacific Western University (a non-traditional, alternative learning institute), and is a doctoral candidate in the theological/biblical studies program at the same university. Although a distant learning university, it is fully authorized and legally recognized by the State of California as an institution of higher learning.
 
VM44
VM44 9 years ago

Here is his current education vita. --VM44
Educational Background
Doctoral Candidacy
Theology/Biblical Studies
Pacific Western University
Los Angeles, California
Doctorate Degree
Computer Information Systems
Pacific Western University
Los Angeles, California
Masters Degree
Management
University of Redlands
Redlands, California
Baccalaureate Degree
Information Systems Management
University of San Francisco
San Francisco, California
 
VM44
VM44 9 years ago

Pacific Western University has moved from Los Angeles to San Diego, and no longer offers the Ph.D degree in any subject.
http://pwu-ca.edu/contact.asp
Firpo should update his resume.
--VM44
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 years ago

VH44,
Dodgy academic qualifications - another similarity between Carr and Bergman...
Slim
 
fullofdoubtnow
fullofdoubtnow 9 years ago

I didn't know much about him, but from what I've read via this thread, he seems rather arrogant.
 
RR
RR 9 years ago

Have you ever seen any of firpo Carr's books? I think he prints them in his basement. Fonts size is about 16, so that there are more pages to them. Hey, he'll personally autograph any book you purchase from his site ... whooo eeee
I've purchased plenty from Randy's site, he's never personally autographed anything for me except my credit card receipt!

RR
 
TD
TD 9 years ago

SBF,
I like to think he is the Witness apologist equivalent to Jerry Bergman on the apostate scene, in that his books are largely self-published on a wide range of topics about which he has a lot of enthusiasm but not a lot of expertise. On second thoughts that is not fair: he is a better writer than Bergman, and has some more perceptive insights to offer too.
Are you serious?
I took a look at his partial essay on blood and it is comical. It reads like the Wayan's brothers doing their "Prison sketch."
Not only does it contain obvious contradictions:

"Consequently, all was not well. Instead of traveling in a circuit within the body as God intended, the ground was now illegally soaking up puddles of the precious liquid."
"Solomon?s undeniable assertion is that both man and beast are made of flesh and blood. And as far as these materials are concerned, man is no better than beast."

....It is full of gems like this:


"One might be led to believe that the Scriptural context dictates that this prohibition is against animal blood since the "flesh" spoken of is described as being put upon an alter [sic] for atonement. (Leviticus 17:11) Additionally, the "flesh" of "a wild beast or a fowl" is also mentioned in connection with God?s prohibition on blood. (Leviticus 17:13) Therefore, one could conclude that a restriction is placed exclusively on non-human blood here. Such a conclusion, however, would not jib [sic] with the facts and would therefore be erroneous."
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 9 years ago

My comment was perhaps a reflection more of what little regard I have for Bergman's work than an indication that I hold Carr in high regard.
Slim
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago
Simon what's an NC-17 rating? As in the first post?
 
GrownMidget
GrownMidget 4 months ago
NC-17 is adults only filter used within US film industry. Don't know why it's used in here though.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America_film_rating_system#X_replaced_by_NC-17

 

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Firpo Carr's Homepage
by slimboyfat 9 years ago 42 Replies latest 4 months ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago
So how come my post was rated? A very fine post it was too I may add. Vintage slimboyfat.
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 4 months ago
Simon has a "sensitive word filter" that still needs fine-tuning. If it thinks you have a potentially "offensive" word in your post, it puts that "NC-17" cover on it.

 +2 / -1
GrownMidget
GrownMidget 4 months ago

This post has been rated  click to view
 
poopie
poopie 4 months ago
Excuse me but william jackson birth certificate stated was negro so heard is the second black modern day membet of gb. russel kurzen confirmed that jackson was indeed black. So before you speak get real facts please dont be like the watchtower sometime does.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago
Can you post a scan?
 +1 / -0
poopie
poopie 4 months ago
The scan is in the book jw from african amercan standpoint do your own research before you say something inacurate iv done mine.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago
I've got that book. Don't see no scan, what page?
 
Dagney
Dagney 4 months ago

Whoa...that's a name from the past. I wonder if he is in or out...Firpo.
He is one interesting, complicated person.
 
poopie
poopie 4 months ago
Its in there
 
TheListener
TheListener 4 months ago

Poopie, I'm somehow missing part of the conversation, or just don't get it. Is there a book called "JW from African American Perspective"? I looked on google and couldn't find anything. Can you help with actual name and author? If so does that book have a scan of William Jackson's birth certificate? Thanks.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago

Title is A History of Jehovah's Witnesses from a Black American Perspective. But good luck getting a copy it's an extremely rare book these days.
http://www.amazon.com/History-Jehovahs-Witnesses-American-Perspective/dp/0963129325/ref=cm_cr_pr_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago
Poopie you're right the certificate is in appendix A. But where does it say he is black? Carr says both parents are listed as white. What odd evidence!
 
TheListener
TheListener 4 months ago
Thanks Slimboy. I will check that out.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago

Carr's got a new homepage, where he states he was in the Christian congregation from 1975 to 2004, which seems to be his rather odd way of saying he's been DFed or he DAed.
http://www.firpocarr.com/index.html

 
poopie
poopie 4 months ago
It says negro pit your glasses on
 
TheListener
TheListener 4 months ago

Wow! He is Awesome!
just kidding
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 months ago
always wondered what happened to him, read quite a lot about him all those years back, didn't he claim to be some sort of adviser very good friend of MJ? I thought he was DF'ed?
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 months ago
SBF, is there doubt over the academic list of qualifications that Jerry Bergman claims to have?
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago

The type you buy online. Reading between the lines it seems Carr is DFed.
Poopie whereabouts? It says both parents are white.
 
suavojr
suavojr 4 months ago
This guy is just full of himself
 

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anyone notice this before?.
http://www.stirinc.org/.
for those who don't know - who is firpo carr?.



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Firpo Carr's Homepage
by slimboyfat 9 years ago 42 Replies latest 4 months ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 4 months ago
He's been selected for Who's Who I'll have you know!
 
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 4 months ago

Carr was interesting at one point, but I think he hit his expiration date. He wrote a book called the Divine name controversy if I'm not mistaken. Some of which has since been debunked.
He also attempted a stab at defense of the blood doctrine. It wasn't very convincing.

 
TD
TD 4 months ago


He also attempted a stab at defense of the blood doctrine. It wasn't very convincing.
It was one of the worst ever. (And I'm a connoisseur...)

 

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anyone notice this before?.
http://www.stirinc.org/.
for those who don't know - who is firpo carr?.



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Is New Radio Talk Show Host FIRPO CARR DFed Or DAed?
by West70 10 years ago 9 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower scandals
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West70
West70 10 years ago

Seems Firpo has got himself a gig on the LA airwaves on Sunday afternoons.
Check out his extensive BIO that mentions JWs NOT ONE SINGLE TIME:
http://progressivetalkam1150.com/weekendhosts.html
Reckon Firpo finally DAed? The WTS doesn't have the guts to DF him.
After you read his Bio, click on his website link and go to his "Bill Clinton" webpage which tells how Firpo interrupted Clinton's booksigning to talk about his own book.
Then, click on the JACKO page.
Firpo's motto is: "If noone else will pat me on the back, I'll just do it myself."
 
West70
West70 10 years ago

Well, Firpo, I love ya even if noone else does.
What are ya going to do if Michael starts praying to Allah, or have ya already joined him?
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

Is Firpo Carr one of the Watcthower's "celebrated scholars"?
http://www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar2.htm
 
West70
West70 10 years ago

Firpo can smell a publicity a mile away.
See his website for photos of him with various Jackson family members, Jacko's attorney, and even Bill Clinton.
Firpo even managed to get his photo in a Watchtower on page adjacent to page with the black GB member.
Now, Firpo's a LA Radio Talk Show Host. What's next? MTV??
 
Aude_Sapere
Aude_Sapere 10 years ago

Well, Firpo, I love ya even if noone else does.
I don't know who this is. Don't think I've ever even heard the name..?
Can you please tell more about how/why I/we should know him?
-Aude.
 
West70
West70 10 years ago

Firpo is .... well let's just say Firpo is a JW author with a black activist bent who is friends with the Jackson family, the Governing Body member who is black (whatever his name), etc.
Just go to the link in post#1, or plug his name into this site's search function. Reading about Firpo is like reading Mad magazine.
Firpo is simply dying to be important ... to someone ... to anyone.
 
zagor
zagor 10 years ago

Firpo even managed to get his photo in a Watchtower on page adjacent to page with the black GB member.
Really?!?! LoL, I'd love to see that
 
sf
sf 10 years ago

Let's try this: Sundays 2pm - 5pm Dr. Firpo Carr is a best-selling author who resides in the  Firpo experienced the Watts Revolt of 1965, the Los Angeles Uprising of 1992, and the ever-present threat of gang violence in the  housing projects, ’s largest.
While with  for ten years, Firpo made extraordinary technical contributions and spent countless hours visiting inner city elementary, junior high, and high schools in association with the company’s community service programs. His technical accomplishments moved , uncharacteristically, to release a news story—in connection with his works—to the major newswire services.
His works have been acknowledged by Jewish scholars at the  and in an encyclopedia entry on the Holocaust; Muslim scholars and authorities who invited him to speak at a prominent Muslim center in the Gulf area during the second Gulf war; and scholars in Christendom who feature his work on various Internet Web sites. in , is the latest in a growing number of institutions of higher learning that uses his best-selling book, ’s Black Holocaust:1890-1945, as a textbook. Libraries across the country are requesting it as an invaluable reference work.
Firpo has traveled twice to the Soviet Union to study and take selected color photographs, for the first time ever, of the oldest most complete Hebrew Bible in the world, and has received international recognition for his daring ventures. Among these ventures are his travels to the , the , and both Central and . He has a love for languages (having studied a few ancient ones), and has read the entire dictionary in an effort to broaden his horizons, and critically examine the thought behind the meaning of words. This study resulted in his best-selling book, Wicked Words: Poisoned Minds—Racism in the Dictionary.
While visiting , the Cuban government, with the blessings of Fidel Castro himself, aired Dr. Carr’s 45-minute lecture on racism in the dictionary, as well in American culture, nationwide. President Bill Clinton is among a number of politicians, at home and abroad, that also admire Firpo’s works.
He has debated the likes of famed attorney Gloria Allred, former O.J. Simpson attorney Robert Shapiro, former LAPD detective Mark Furhman, the infamous O.J. Simpson witness for the prosecution, attorney Lisa Bloom, a former national debating champion and current “CourtTV” specialist, as well as a host of current and former city, county, and district attorneys. He also took on defense attorneys and current and former federal prosecutors.
Though the list is not complete, these debates and general appearances occurred on the following: ’s “Good Morning America,” CBS’s “Early Morning,” NBC’s “Today Show,” NBC’s “Weekend Today,” CNN’s “American Morning,” MSNBC’s “The Abram’s Report,” MSNBC’s “Scarborough Country,” MSNBC’s “Hardball with Chris Matthews,”  News’ “At Large With Geraldo,”  News’ “Debra Norvell,” CNN’s “Paula Zahn Now,” CourtTV’s “Crier Live” with Catherine Crier, “Inside Edition,” “Celebrity Justice,” “Extra,” “Access Hollywood,” and “Entertainment Tonight”; Los Angeles stations KTTV, KCAL, and KCOP; Foreign press: BBC, SkyTV, , Canadian, Australian, Chinese and Japanese news organizations and other international media, as well as countless other news agencies, excluding radio. In many cases he appeared on the above several times.
Both Essence and Black Scholar magazines list his groundbreaking book, ’s Black Holocaust: 1890-1945, among their national bestsellers. Dr. Carr currently heads the non-profit organization, Scholar Technological Institute of Research, Inc. (S.T.I.R. Inc.). He can be contacted at firpocarr@aol.com.   ------- jgnat, I suggested that a while back too. Never got a reply. He seems to have cleaned up a bit.
 Perhaps someone should call into his show and ask him, on the air, if he has read the misrepresentation of secular facts re: the blood policy.
 sKally






 
LDH
LDH 10 years ago

Good 'old Firpo.
Doesn't it kinda make you wonder why they don't DF him? I mean, they DF'd Micheal for making the Thriller video.
You gotta wonder....what does he have on them...
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 10 years ago

Reading about Firpo is like reading Mad magazine.

LOL!!!
I definetly have to agree with THAT! He's quite a piece 'o' work!
 

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Firpo Carr and African American Enigma
by comforter 14 years ago 4 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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comforter
comforter 14 years ago


Comforter deems he know why Firpo write about the black and white thang. Racism still a problem in the United States. But this is probably not the main reason Firpo talk about issues that are pertainable to colored people. Firpo must wanna imitate the apostle Paul. He love to help his people come to God and Jesus:
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:1-5
Firpo a good man.
Comfort
 
Fredhall
Fredhall 14 years ago

Good thought comforter.
 
comforter
comforter 14 years ago


Glad some people from this forum like the thought, Fred.
Comfort
 
ashitaka
ashitaka 14 years ago


Racism is still a problem in the States, just not as much near me. I live in Jersey, and I hardly had a day of negative racial sentiment, and I've hung out with all races.
Of course there were times once in a great while that black friends conceded that they disliked whites, and whites as to blacks, but I myself have never felt that kind of dislike, so I really can't identify it in people very well.
Loving all people is a wise admonition, as is loving God and Jesus, if you believe in them.
ash
 
hillary_step
hillary_step 14 years ago


Me think Comforter, him like Firpo Carr. Maybe him is Firpo Carr. He keep say Firpo Carr good man, when all know Firpo Carr is like make mountain out of hill-mole.
Fred Hall he think Comforter has good thought. This bad. Fred Hall never have thought at all, so how can think Comforter have good thought?
This very puzzling.
HS
 

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Firpo Carr use the death of MT to evangelize in an american paper
by chasson 7 years ago 5 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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chasson
chasson 7 years ago

Where is Michael Jackson Now?
What he believed about death

by Dr. Firpo Carr
The Los Angeles Sentinel Newspaper


http://firpocarr.com/_wsn/page2.html
 
chasson
chasson 7 years ago

Another article of Carr where he criticize some JW concerning their attitude concerning MJ:

http://firpocarr.com/_wsn/page5.html
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

I`ll bet the WBT$ wish`s Firpo Carr would just Shut the F*ck Up!!..
He is a real pain in the ass for the WBT$......They can`t get rid of him and they can`t shut him up..
..................................LOL!!...OUTLAW
 
wha happened?
wha happened? 7 years ago

I think everyone wants that idiot to just shut up. I'm here in Los Angeles and he is so irrelevent. Every JW, Non-JW knows that guy is full of himself with his internet diplomas. Years back the Jackson's put out a press piece distancing themselves from him
 
chasson
chasson 7 years ago

Wha happened: I am interested in the article from the Jackson's concerning Carr. If you could find it somewhere ?
Charles
 
SouthCentral
SouthCentral 7 years ago

I subscribe to the Sentinel. He writes an article with this slant every week.
 

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firpo carr, phd, mj friend, says mj want kids to be jw's
by orbison11 7 years ago 9 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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orbison11
orbison11 7 years ago

OMG
just watching nancy grace on tv, and firpo carr is claiming michael told him that he wanted the kids to be raised like he was, as a jw, with the bible in their life
i cant believe it
orb
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

Firpo Carr Phd..PHuquing Dumass..LOL!!........He`s a JW..Writes as an WBT$ Appologest.......He`s looking for his 15 minutes of fame,while standing on MJ`s Coffin........Classy Guy!..Not!!...............MJ was a Muslim when he died.................Carr is probably telling an old story,trying to make it sound current..........It will buy him a few points with the WBT$..He`s not that popular with them lately..................................LOL!!...OUTLAW
 
truthsetsonefree
truthsetsonefree 7 years ago

In some ways there is a logic to that. Many df'd dubs who have been mistreated and shunned still believe it's the truth. They often want their kids in. Who knows? Maybe MJ did too. Carr may be telling the truth. Or he may be telling an old story like Outlaw says. But if it were true, it wouldn't surprise me.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

Last I heard Firpo Carr was disassociated. Mind you that was a couple of years ago, knowing Dr Carr he's probably been out and back a couple of times since.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

SBF..My best info is..Firpo Carr is a real pain in the ass for the WBT$.....Even though he is a WBT$ Supporter......He supports change in the WBT$ and expects them to accept it..We all know thats not going to work.................................LOL!!...OUTLAW
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

Man he's got a new book out! I got to get this one!
Sistas and Supernatural Sex
http://stirinc.org/availablebooks.html
 
orbison11
orbison11 7 years ago

outlaw,,you be careful,
or i will unlock the trunk of my car, lol
orb
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

SBF.........If only it were true.....He could put more than a few GB members in a Pine Box with that one............................LOL!!...OUTLAW
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

Orbison11..You read my comment on the other thread did you?..LOL!........................Nice to have you back Wendy....................................OUTLAW
 
loosie
loosie 7 years ago

Well I just email the nancy grace show. Knowing how much she cares about kids, I let her know how damaging this religion can be to children.
 

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Michael Jackson's Mom/Firpo Carr/William's Sister
by ExpandedMind 12 years ago 11 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw friends
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ExpandedMind
ExpandedMind 12 years ago


Hi!
How can "active" JWs such as MJ's Mom, Firpo Carr and the William's sister who attended MJs support party, openly support him (because he is an exJW) without getting reproved or disfellowshipped by the organization? I know that we don't see what goes on behind the scenes, perhaps the do get a "talking to" by the elders, but it seems lately that certain active JWs are more bold about associating openly with exJWs.
Has anyone ever read anything about MJs Mom's justification of her on-going relationship with MJ? Or the others? I realize that situations like this (JWs associating with exJWs) go on all the time in the organization; it is nothing new. But you'd think that "faithful" JWs, like MJs Mom, would be fearful of the repercussions of openly supporting him.
Thanks!
ExpandedMind
 
Amazing
Amazing 12 years ago


Good points Expandedmind,
When I lived in California, an Elder moved into our congregation from Michael's Jackson's congregation. He sat on the JC that reproved Michael regarding the film, Thriller. Sometime later, Michael was again accused of another JW violation that resulted in being summoned to a JC ... then, he told us that Michal wrote a letter and Disassociated himself.
Clearly, any active loyal JWs should not be involved with Michael Jackson. And, any JWs like Firpo, etc. who do, should themselves be brought before a JC ... that would be the case were they ordinary low-profile JWs ... but no, they are well known and at any moment can be in the media ... and that spotlight alone seems to restrain the Watchtower goons.
 
Satanus
Satanus 12 years ago


Are the williamses baptised? I thought i heard that they weren't.
Amazing
It's good to have those details on mj.
SS
 
Mulan
Mulan 12 years ago

Firpo Carr is a JW????
 
ExpandedMind
ExpandedMind 12 years ago


Hi, Amazing, SaintSatan and Mulan!
Amazing, I think you're correct when you wrote: "they are well known and at any moment can be in the media ... and that spotlight alone seems to restrain the Watchtower goons." That may even be the case with Greg Stafford not being DF'd (unless something has happened recently). Maybe the Watchtower Society realizes that to take action against these persons who are prominent, would unleash MORE negative information about the Society.
I don't wish any backlash on any of these persons. Maybe they are acting according to their conscience and feel that whatever happens, so be it. It just seems a bit unfair that the "rank and file" can't (openly) do the same, at least not without a more immediate response from the elders.
SaintSatan and Mulan, I am not positive about the Williams sisters... I read an article that indicated they go door to door (or at at one point did) but that doesn't necessarily mean they are baptized. But I do believe that other articles I've read about Firpo Carr indicate he is a JW.
Thanks for your responses!
ExpandedMind
 
DevonMcBride
DevonMcBride 12 years ago


This morning on the news they referred to Firpo Carr as MJ's spiritual advisor.
Devon
 
jukief
jukief 12 years ago

Firpo Carr is a longtime JW apologist. Alan has his book about black and the JWs. http://www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar2.htm
 
Englishman
Englishman 12 years ago


Good heavens, it's Jukie F.
I was thinking about you earlier today as I downed a few pints of good ale. You OK, Julie?
Mike.
 
jukief
jukief 12 years ago

Hi Mike!!! I'm fine, thanks. But I'd give almost anything to be back in Weston-super-Mare having a pint with you and Nige. :smile:
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 12 years ago

I was wondering the same thing when I saw him on CNN. Despite his being a longtime apologist, was he still "in good standing" before getting involved in the current brouhaha?
 
DebraDoll
DebraDoll 12 years ago


http://www.ev1.net/english/news/newsarticle.asp?articleID=14090435&subject=entertainment

Michael Jackson Friend Criticizes Article
  Firpo Carr, a friend of Michael Jackson's family, speaks to reporters outside the Jackson compound in the Encino area of Los Angeles, Friday, Jan. 30, 2004. Carr held the news conference Friday to criticize a magazine article that portrayed the embattled singer negatively. (AP Photo/Stefano Paltera)
 
 
Alf3831
Alf3831 12 years ago


Last I heard Firpo W. Carr remains an active JW, who professes to be of the anointed (has done so since he was around 19 yrs of age). Firpo's picture came out in a WT magazine in late 2000 or early 2001. It showed lots of pics of brothers/sisters at the convention. He came out in one wearing african gear.
In my interaction with Firpo he is a very kind and articulate individual. However, once the camera is on, or if on the radio, imo he becomes a different person. Unfortunately he has bought into the hype regarding his status as an african-american leader.
Alf3831
 

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Does anyone know Firpo Carr?
by Butterflygal 12 years ago 10 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw friends
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Butterflygal
Butterflygal 12 years ago

Does anyone know anything about a man named Firpo Carr? I heard he likes to attack all ex-Witnesses, is a friend of Michael Jackson, is a Black Witness, lives in CA. and teaches part time at a college.
 
freedom96
freedom96 12 years ago


He is not a current friend of Michael Jackson. My understanding is that he has known some of the family at some point, being that some of Jacksons family is still involved.
He likes to see his name in the paper and tv, and is annoying as hell.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 12 years ago

try doing a search here on "Firpo Carr." There was some discussion about his involvement with Michael Jackson and his friendship with the Nation Of Islam.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 12 years ago


One day years ago I was sitting on my patio on a Saturday, and two Witnesses come up, a tall African/American and a young man with him. The young man started witnessing to me, and he then called the tall guy "Firpo." Unbeknownst to Firpo Carr at the time, I had just finished writing a review of his book:
http://www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar.htm
I said, "You're Firpo Carr!" He said yes. I told him I was Randy Watters, and he responded by saying he had read my tract:
http://www.freeminds.org/history/whathapp.htm
Firpo was polite and talked about 10 minutes. The kid was dumbfounded and didn't say any more. I, on the other hand, was happy to have met him. For some reason several of the self-styled JW apologists have visited me. Some have even made Return Visits! No doubt they counted their time as well. :smile:)
By the way, the latest rumor is that I am a Communist:
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?pageID=1&discussionID=321809&messages_per_page=16
Ahh, it never ends! :smile:)
Randy Watters
Net Soup!
http://www.freeminds.org/
 
kls
kls 12 years ago

Dogpatch,it just amazes me that ,anyone not with the witnesses or to speak against them are called some kind of name.Heres mine Jehovah nitwits. Sorry Butterflygal for misdirecting youre thread,but i am tired of jws calling the unbelievers names.Ok i will shutup now. kls
 
xjw_b12
xjw_b12 12 years ago



Dogpatch: By the way, the latest rumor is that I am a Communist:
Anything is better than being referred to as a JW !
 
VM44
VM44 12 years ago


Firpo is going to be on the radio tonight (Jan 16) at 10:00pm pacific time.
Maybe you can listen to a webcast at KFI 640 AM, the "More Stimulating Talk Radio"
http://www.kfi640.com
--VM44
 
Mulan
Mulan 12 years ago

I am just astounded that this man is a JW, and a pioneer too? I've seen him on TV quite a lot lately, in regard to the Michael Jackson situation.
 
Euphemism
Euphemism 12 years ago


Randy... your beliefnet link doesn't work. It says it's missing a boardID.
I wonder, however, if someone was confusing you with James Penton, who I am told is a pretty strong leftist.
 
sf
sf 12 years ago


Good morning all. Ah yes, Firpo is making the rounds again....like a good jw do.
freedom, you stated here:
He is not a current friend of Michael Jackson. My understanding is that he has known some of the family at some point, being that some of Jacksons family is still involved.
Yesterday, CBS, NBC and ABC here in Southern California all refer to him as "Michael Jacksons SPIRITUAL ADVISOR" on their reports. I looked up at tv and saw Firpo, again, making an ass out of himself, again.
It would be my understanding then that Firpo IS a "current friend" and evident(ly) much more.
This case just keeps getting stranger and stranger. But then again, what can anyone really expect...?
sKally
 
RedhorseWoman
RedhorseWoman 12 years ago


I wonder, however, if someone was confusing you with James Penton, who I am told is a pretty strong leftist.
No, no confusion. The whole "communist" thing was a supposed joke by one of the regular JWs who post there. He considers himself quite witty....he is only half right with regard to his wittiness.
 

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JW Author Firpo Carr: What's His Agenda?
by Room 215 13 years ago 12 Replies latest 13 years ago   jw friends
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Room 215
Room 215 13 years ago


Hi all,
I've only now become aware of the existence of one Firpo Carr, apparently a liberal JW apologist with several dissenting views and an Afro-American JW grievance agenda. Do any of you know where he stands and how he's regarded by JWs? Is he a sort of Black Greg Stafford?
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 13 years ago


When I see that name, I can't help but think of the Marx Brothers.
Anyone think that's apt?
Cheers, Ozzie
 
metatron
metatron 13 years ago


Rufus T. Firefly, perhaps?

metatron
 
Room 215
Room 215 13 years ago

It appears he's a published author (his book, available from amazon.com, was advertised on this site) .... A pseudonym, perhaps?
 
SYN
SYN 13 years ago

He's one of Suicidal Dub Class, apparently! EGADS! HE'S RUNNING AHEAD OF JEHOVER!
 
Farkel
Farkel 13 years ago


Along with Grudge Rutherford, Firpo is Fred Hall's biggest hero. That should tell you all you need to know!
Farkel
 
ApagaLaLuz
ApagaLaLuz 13 years ago


Firpo grew up in my hall. I didn't know him personally, I was too young. But his mother and my mother are very close. I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals for this one, but Firpo is a crock.
"Doctor Firpo Carr" is a sham. His fake PHD. He's been trying to stand up and be a leader for years where no leader is needed. He claims to be a very active JW. the JWs do not take him seriously and view him as an Apostate. Although that has never been officially decided.
Bah!
 
Satanus
Satanus 13 years ago


A fake phd? Sounds interesting. It must be frustrating, being a leader with no followers.
SS
Edited by - saintsatan on 11 September 2002 12:51:0
 
comforter
comforter 13 years ago


firpo agenda to speak truth. simple that.
comfy
 
Jerry Bergman
Jerry Bergman 13 years ago

Why is he not disfellowshipped??? From his writings, it is clear he is an apostate. Have any of you read his books on the Witnesses???
 
TR
TR 13 years ago


Ozzie,
Firpo Carr, Harpo Marx, Firpo Carr, Harpo Marx, Firpo Carr, Harpo Marx.
Crap. Which one isn't a Marx bro.? I'm confused.
TR
 
Stephanus
Stephanus 13 years ago


Otis P Driftwood
Comforter:

 
Jerry Bergman
Jerry Bergman 13 years ago


Of interest:
Jehovah's Witnesses: The African American Enigma--A Contemporary Study (Vol. I)
 by Firpo W. Carr

 
List Price:  $14.95 
Price:  $14.95 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details. 
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours Only 4 left in stock--order soon (more on the way).
Edition: Paperback
See more product details
Product Details
◦Paperback: 240 pages
◦Publisher: STIR Inc. (Scholar Technological Institute of Research, Inc.); ISBN: 0963129368; (June 2002)
◦Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars Based on 2 reviews. Write a review.
◦Amazon.com Sales Rank: 889,070



Editorial Reviews Book Description
 More than any other religion in recent history, Jehovah's Witnesses have quietly and positively impacted the black community. Yet, some are concerned that the needs of African Americans, and Black Witnesses specifically, have been overlooked. Others argue that the predominantly white Governing Body is insensitive toward black plight.
This book deals squarely with these and other issues facing today's black Witnesses. Dr. Firpo W. Carr, an active Witness himself for over 35 years (and full-time minister for over 20 of those years), has traveled to black communities in major cities across the United States--from Harlem to Oakland--in an effort to carefully study and critique black Witnesses. The results have been discribed as "riveting."
Though the focus of his study was in the United States, he traveled to Cuba to study black Witnesses and their history on the Communist island. Fidel Castro elected to air Carr's 45-minute lecture on racism nationwide.
On both ends of the sociopolitical spectrum Carr's works have been widely accepted and admired. Legacy, "Africa's leading magazine on social issues," the original Black Panther Party, and many others have recognized and published Carr.


Customer Reviews Avg. Customer Review:
Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers.
4 out of 5 starsA Must Book for Every Witness and nonWitness to Read, August 27, 2002
 Reviewer: A reader from Eastern USA 
Having read Firpo Carr's last book on Black Witnesses, I found his latest book better than I expected. Gone is the lashing out at "apostates" and in is reasoned discussions about real issues that concern the Watchtower today. Carr does criticize "apostates" in this book, yet he clearly has a number of disagreements with the Society and would technically therefore also be an apostate. I have never known a person who openly tried to change the Watchtower (and I have known many, including Ron Frye, Jim Penton, Don Nelson, Raymond Franz, Jerry Bergman, Barbara Anderson, Greg Stafford, Bill Bowen, and many others) that was able to stay. Sooner or later they all left due to pressure (or were forced out). Carr has argued, in my opinion effectively, for many needed changes in Watchtower policy including a more realistic stand on a number of issues facing Blacks in the Society. The Watchtower is the only White mainline church that the majority of members are minority (see Kosmin and Lachman One Nation Under God Harmony Books. NY). As Carr noted, one Black member on the governing body is progress, but to be truly representative of the Watchtower membership over half of the members should be minorities. Carr is advocating some fairly drastic changes in the Watchtower and, although he may be a rare exception and not end up being forced out, this will surely cause him problems. It is obvious that he has read much apostate literature, which alone could cause him problems. I wish him luck (sorry, good fortune). Also, his information on the Watchtower's connection with certain radical Black power groups and the radical Nation of Islam may upset some. The suggestion that Jesus was a Black man and other ideas may also not settle well with some.
 

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Are These "Scholars" JWs & are They Really Scholars? A Brother Says So....
by Seeker4 9 years ago 8 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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Seeker4
Seeker4 9 years ago

A brother on the Beliefnet discussion of the new KM Question Box claims that the following list of writings is by JW professors, including elders and former COs and DOs. Some of the names, like Jay Hess and Firpo Carr, I'm familar with. Most I haven't heard of.
Does anyone know if these are really by JWs, and are there all these Witnesses who are language and bible professors at various universities, as that brother claims? I've been involved with the Witnesses for a long time, and I only knew of a couple of brothers in this situation.
This brother also claims that he's attending a Baptist university and studying something like bible history. Sounds a bit unusual. Also claims that he wants to teach Bible subjects online and become a JW apologist, essentially.
Sounds interesting. Well, if he's any kind of a scholar, he'll soon by on JWD!
It's funny, but this brother was defending the WTS's view in the QB, when he is doing exactly what they are coming out against!
S4
Here's the list:
A Philosophical, Scientific and Theological Defense for the Notion That a God Exists by Hal Flemings
“Your Word is Truth” Essays in Celebration of the 50th anniversary of the New World translation of the Holy Scriptures (1950, 1953) by Anthony Byatt, Hal FlemingsEdgar Foster, David Jakubovic and Rolf Furuli.
The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation With a Special Look at the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses by Rolf Furuli
Chronology and the Length of the Babylonian Exile of the Jews by Rolf Furuli
Persianbr>New Testament Metaphors Illustrations in Word and Phrase by Anthony Byatt
Jesus-God or the Son of God? A Comparison of the Arguments by Brian Holt
New Simplified Bible by Jim Madsen
21st Century New Testament by Vivian Capel
The Name of God Y.eH.oW.aH Which Is Pronounced As It Is Written I_Eh_Ou_Ah: Its Story by Gerard Gertoux
The Trinity's Weak Links Revealed by Robert L. George
The Lord and the Tetragrammaton by Howard Mazzaferro
Conces of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by Matthew Alfs
Angelomorphic Christology and the Exegesis of Psalm 8:5 in Tertullian's Adversus Praxean: An Examination of Tertullian's Reluctance to Attribute Angelic Properties to the Son of God by Edgar Foster
An Exploration of Christology and the Trinity - by Edgar Foster
Conversations and Debates with Trinitarians by Heinz Schmidt
The Trinty in Light of the Harmony of the Holy Scriptures by Michael A. Barber
Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not False Prophets by Jay Hess
Answers To Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses by Heinz Schmitz
Jehovah's Witnesses - A Challenge by Helmut-Dieter Hartmann
Chronicles of the Unholy Fathers by R. W. Rolands
Living Destiny: The Man From Matthew Mark Luke John by Marlet Cole
Gems From The New Testament by Vivian Capel
The Divine Name Controversy - Volume 1 by Dr. Firpo W. Carr
A History of Jehovah's Witnesses From A Black American Perspective by Firpo W. Carr PH.D.
In Defense of That Despised "Sect" by Author: J.C. Bremer
Something to Laugh About by Jimmy and Marilyn Kennedy
 
badboy
badboy 9 years ago

IS THIS BROTHER ATTENDING A BAPTIST UNIVERSITY?
WOULD IT BE ALRIGHT I A BROTHER ATENDED A CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY?
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 9 years ago

Well, isn't Notre Dame a Catholic university? Would a brother be considered wrong attending it? I'm not sure how I would answer that.
S4
 
jschwehm
jschwehm 9 years ago

Jay Hess is no longer a JW. I think he is now a Baptist. I think Edgar Foster does have some type of graduate degree in Religious Studies. I thing Rolf Furuli does too. Both Edgar and Rolf and still JWs the last I heard.
Jeff S.
 
Seeker4
Seeker4 9 years ago

Thanks Jeff. I kind of thought I remembered that about Hess.
Do you know if any of these guys are elders, ex-COs or DOs?
I really knew only a handful of brothers over the years who were any kind of serious students of the Bible.
S4
 
Dagney
Dagney 9 years ago

Firpo has been in and out many times. I think currently he is out. Last time I saw him on TV dressed as a Muslim, with a Muslim cleric and I think Michael Jackson.
Hal Flemmings definitely is. Has a website (though not so sure now with the new "info"LOL). He's done a lot of writing through the years, a lot on the trinity.
Heinz Schmit I understand is now out, and I think agnostic.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 9 years ago

I've read the "Role of Theology and Bias" book by Furuli. The guy read a lot of books that us laymen would be disfellowshipped for reading for this book.
 
Terry
Terry 9 years ago

Any scholastic merits a JW has was brought in WITH THEM as they became absorbed into the Kingdom Hall.
At Brooklyn the library is stocked top to bottom with the ...GASP!...works of Christendom's scholars.
This is the feeding ground for the writing department when they need to sound educated.
Fred Franz was a deep reader of Martin Luther apparently. I say "apparently" because I was astonished one evening when I went to the
Ft.Worth Public Library and began browsing through the Complete Works of Martin Luther only to discover that Franz had vacuumed out all the crumbs
and turned them into the Babylon the Great book!!
Have you ever known somebody who has Do-It-Yourself projects going on at their house all the time? Self-taught carpenters and jerry-rig electricians and shade-tree mechanics all have one thing in common with Watchtower "Scholars"---they are self-taught just enough to do some real damage!
No academic disicpline ever stood in their way and they never got the opportunity to fail a test of competency.
JW scholars can build a mean bird house, but; that's about it!
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 9 years ago

Furuli..If he was half as smart as Fred Hall thinks he is..He would never say another word..LOL!!...OUTLAW
 

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E!Online: Will Michael Jackson's Funeral Be Jehovah's Witness—or Muslim?
by AudeSapere 7 years ago 21 Replies latest 7 years ago   social current
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AudeSapere
AudeSapere 7 years ago

I had to do a doubletake. Seemed like a few threads from here on JWN...!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/eonline/20090702/en_top_eo/132450
Will Michael Jackson's Funeral Be Jehovah's Witness—or Muslim?
Will Michael Jackson's Funeral Be Jehovah's Witness—or ...

Los Angeles (E! Online) – Weren't the Jackson family Jehovah's Witnesses ? How will that affect the funeral?
—Bet
Other fans are asking me similar questions, but instead wondering whether Michael Jackson's funeral may be Muslim. See, in 2007, his brother Jermaine Jackson told the media that Michael had shown interest in the religion, and there was brief speculation that Jackson converted from Jehovah's Witness to Islam.
Now, we know this: (a) There will be no memorial service at Neverland, (b) there might be some kind of Jackson-related event on Tuesday at the Staples Center, (c) his body is waiting at Forest Lawn cemetery in Los Angeles, and (d) there are signs of a private family service on Sunday, possibly the funeral.
However, of the two religions mentioned above, if the funeral is religious at all, it will probably swing toward...
Jehovah's Witness, the religion of Jackson's parents. Jackson himself was said to be an ardent Witness throughout most, if not all, of his life, and—unlike the Islam conversion stories—there are plenty of accounts to back that up. As late as four years ago, Jackson was publicly proclaiming his adherence to that faith, and he never publicly confirmed a conversion to Islam.
Jackson family friend Firpo Carr told CNN this week that Jackson once said "he wanted me to study the bible with him because he was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses early in life, [and] he would want his children to be raised the same way."
In general, Witnesses believe that true Christians should remain separate from the world as much as possible and that the Bible is God's word. They also believe that a select 144,000 faithful will go to heaven to rule alongside Jesus Christ .
So what might M.J.'s funeral look like if it does follow Jehovah's Witness tradition?
Witnesses believe that nothing in a person survives death, including the soul. Wakes and directly addressing the dead person are both banned in Witness funerals. The services are relatively short at 15 to 30 minutes.
Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman has told a British tab that M.J. will be buried, not cremated, though the family has not officially confirmed or denied that. Most Witnesses are cremated or buried within three days of death, though there is no specific direction regarding time before interment.
In contrast, Muslims traditionally frown upon autopsies and bury their dead quickly, often within 24 or 48 hours of death. There is generally silence during the procession to the burial site, and the body is buried with the head facing toward Mecca .
Ask me anything on Twitter @answerbitch
··· THEY SAID WHAT? Get today's most commented stories now at www.eonline.com
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

1 vote for Muslim
.................OUTLAW
 
Yizuman
Yizuman 7 years ago

I vote for JW funeral. No way that mom is gonna let a "cult" in their world view, bury her son.
Yiz
 
AudeSapere
AudeSapere 7 years ago

My guess is neutral ceremony. Al Sharpton has already been counselling the family. Perhaps he will say a few words graveside??
I used to know the elders who were close to him back in the early/mid-90's before his separation from the org. One or two might be mellow enough to speak for the family but I'm sure it would cause trouble with the cong. Last I heard (been away for over 15 years) his B-I-L was still and elder.
So my guess is still: non-denominational service. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are likely to have already offered their services.
-Aude.
 
Yizuman
Yizuman 7 years ago

That would sound reasonable as long as they don't use MJ as a platform to spew out their racist agenda. Sharpen very especially. God, he can't keep his mouth shut for once.
Yiz
 
mouthy
mouthy 7 years ago

On Larry King live last night his Brother said they had been brought up as JWS
But avoided the actuel answer "WHAT WILL THE SEVICE BE!!" He said Micheal brought the world together
with love so let us realize he will do the same in death....
And repeated that it was Micheal that wrote "WE ARE THE WORLD"
 
Olin Moyles Ghost
Olin Moyles Ghost 7 years ago

Here's my speculation:
There will be a private burial--family and close friends only. This will probably take place some time before the big spectacle next Tuesday. Sunday may be the day for the burial.
The big public "memorial" for Jackson on Tuesday will likely be 100% secular--basically a celebration of his music. I don't think Mrs. ("Sister") Jackson will allow Sharpton and Rev. Jesse to get up there and start preaching.
The interesting question to me is how the private burial service will be handled. Since MJ was an ex-witness, I don't see how an elder could get away with officiating over the burial...but you never know.
 
mkr32208
mkr32208 7 years ago

I don't understand the hubbub was there no ditch handy to throw this disease ridden pedophile trash into so he could just rot and be forgotten?
 
dinah
dinah 7 years ago

What could Al Sharpton possibly have to say? Whitey made Michael Jackson hate himself so much he turned into a white woman?
 
choosing life
choosing life 7 years ago

His brother also said that Allah gave Michael to the world and Allah has taken him back.
I don't know who they will have speak at the private funeral, but I don't imagine they can please everyone with the divided beliefs in the family.
If I was a betting person, I would wager that Katherine will have her way with a jw funeral.
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

If I was a betting person, I would wager that it will mostly be a non-religious funeral. There will probably be some religious type peple that will speak. Maybe Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson. But they seem to be friends of Joes. I don't know if they were friends of Michael. Maybe that Rabbi that he was friends with. I can't think of his name right now. Or Deepack Chopra. He writes a lot of spiritual books.
I don't think a JW will be anywhere in sight.
 
WuzLovesDubs
WuzLovesDubs 7 years ago

Well he wasnt a JW any more. So why would ANY JW elder perform that ceremony?
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 7 years ago

Well he wasnt a JW any more. So why would ANY JW elder perform that ceremony?
For the publicity.
Coffee
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

I don't know why the JWs would want that type publicity. Do they want to be associated with someone like Michael Jackson? He represents everything that they hate.
 
blondie
blondie 7 years ago



km3/97p.7QuestionBox



What
ifthedeceasedwasdisfellowshipped? The congregation would generally not be involved. The Kingdom Hall would not be used. If the person had been giving evidence of repentance and manifesting a desire to be reinstated, a brother’s conscience might allow him to give a Bible talk at the funeral home or graveside, to give a witness to unbelievers and to comfort the relatives. Before making this decision, however, it would be wise for the brother to consult with the body of elders and give consideration to what they may recommend.In situations where it would not be wise for that brother to be involved, it may be appropriate for a brother who is a member of the deceased person’s family to give a talk to console the relatives.
 
Mickey mouse
Mickey mouse 7 years ago

Maybe Reebie's husband, the JW elder will say a few words?
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

Hmmmm..... Maybe. It will be interesting to see. But I will be surprised if there is any JW speaking.
 
blondie
blondie 7 years ago

Rebbie's husband, as an elder, would have to get clearance from the body of elders he's on. He just can't do it since he represents the body and the congregation. I see it more likely that the Jackson family will have a private service for the jws.
Very, very likely, any elder who performed any service at the funeral would be doing it without the elders approval and would find himself asked to step down.
 
Violia
Violia 7 years ago

Can they convice the elders that he was just mentally ill and still loved Jah? If they can, then I don't see why the jw family member can't do it. It would be such a witness to the world. ( ugh) Also, think how damning it will be if they refuse to do the funeral? That looks really cold.
I'd opt for a secualr funeral if it was me, but I do not know how active Mrs. Jackson currently is with the jws. It is certainly not necessary that he be buried by jws. he was an adult and can choose his own religion and she should know that.
 
coffee_black
coffee_black 7 years ago

I don't know why the JWs would want that type publicity. Do they want to be associated with someone like Michael Jackson? He represents everything that they hate.
They might view it as an opportunity to "give a witness" ...as it will be televised and will be seen by millions... all around the world.
Coffee
 

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E!Online: Will Michael Jackson's Funeral Be Jehovah's Witness—or Muslim?
by AudeSapere 7 years ago 21 Replies latest 7 years ago   social current
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jookbeard
jookbeard 7 years ago

who's rebbie?
 
blondie
blondie 7 years ago

Rebbie is the oldest Jackson daughter who was baptized in 1965 and eventually married a brother named brown from Chicago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebbie_Jackson
Google is a powerful tool.
 

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Topic Summary
i had to do a doubletake.
seemed like a few threads from here on jwn...!.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/eonline/20090702/en_top_eo/132450.



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Michael Jackson had kids baptised Catholic in 2003?
by JWdaughter 7 years ago 8 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 years ago

I read this in an article speaking about Mark Lester being named the godfather of MJ's kids during a private baptism at a catholic church.( This is the guy who despearately wanted them raised JW-according to Firpo Carr-the little weasel man.
http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20296936,00.html
Yes, I read stupid tabloid reports.
 
choosing life
choosing life 7 years ago

Maybe he was covering all his bases? The Catholic christening is not really a baptism, but a sweet ceremony where the parents dedicate the child to God.
Jermaine Jackson said that the kids will NOT be raised as jws because they are used to having birthdays and Christmas, when he was interviewed on Larry King the other night.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 years ago

MMmm, last I checked, the catholics baptise their children and consider them baptised. They do confirmation later, but still, baptism/christening is the same thing in the catholic world I am familiar with.
The catholic church here won't let parents have kids baptised unless BOTH parents attend a weekly class for a few weeks previous. For EACH child (or baptism session-if two kids were being baptised at the same time, just one class) My husband is catholic, which is how I know this.
Good for Jermaine, but his mom is JW and my experience on a personal level is they don't mind pulling that particular rug right out from under you.
 
White Dove
White Dove 7 years ago

I've read that once a child is baptized Catholic, it is Catholic its entire life, even if it leaves and gets baptized in another church. You are Catholic for life. If you want to return, you are welcomed back as a returning member. You name is never removed from the roster.
 
White Dove
White Dove 7 years ago

With a family as large as the Jackson's, so many of the not JW's, and Gramma so old, I imagine they will have their holidays. Good for Jermaine!
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 years ago

Part of all the 'being excommunicated' and still being catholic is this; ex-communication to a catholic means that they are in a sin that keeps them from communion. Remember when the pope or a bishop said that certain acts would keep a person from taking communion? Like voting for abortion or some politician? That is an acknowledgement of the scriptures regarding not even eating with such a man, and not partaking of the lords supper unworthily. Going against church/bible teachings would keep them out of comunion. When you see people not partaking at a catholic church it might well be that they haven't been to confession and/or realize that they are under a serious sin that they need to overcome or discuss with a spiritual leader to ensure they are right with God-so to speak. Officially, excommunication doesn't remove a person from the catholic church, it keeps them from being in communion with other christians-they don't get a free pass even WITH confession. Officially adultery USED to keep a person from communion for a certain period of time, while they were still expected to be at mass and stuff.
The catholic church may count you as a catholic forever, I don't know anything about that. Numbers on a page don't count as much as the butts in a pew do. Most polls are done with the attendees who declare their own religion, so high counts by the church doesn't do anything real to boost numbers/tithes/attendance.
 
choosing life
choosing life 7 years ago

I am more familiar with Lutherans. They baptize/christen their infants also. The child later attends classes for 2 years once a week and then makes their own choice to get baptized/or not. This is at the age of 12/13. They call it confirmation.
I have a sister who is Catholic who cannot take communion because she got divorced and remarried. It doesn't seem to bother her, she still goes to church. I guess there is no way to fix that one, huh?
I think celebrity families like the Jackson's don't always play by the jw rules. Money has its privileges. Michael's kids have already been exposed to a lot and I imagine they will continue to be exposed to different views in that family.
 
choosing life
choosing life 7 years ago

Oops, I forgot to say that Lester believes he is Paris' father. He wants to be part of her life. What a jumbled world those kids are going to have.
 
PSacramento
PSacramento 7 years ago

Look at it this way:
RCC Infant baptizim = Jewish circumsion rite
Confirmation = barmitzvah

:wink:
 

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Apostasy - A Racist Movement?
by slimboyfat 11 years ago 81 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower scandals
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 11 years ago



 Firpo Carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the Watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in Black issues. They are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-Witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal Witnesses are Black.
I know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: Apostacy is a Witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case. But i think it is worth discussing anyway.
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago


Well, I'm an apostate, and I would like to remind you that not only were the early writings of WTBTS racist, so was the Bible.
It's not about furthering "our" cause either. WE're free already. We are trying to free others.
BTW, I took an African American literature class. I was the only "cracker" in the "box" so to speak. THe books were a little redundant but the friends I made were the best part. Those were some of the coolest people ever.
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


Huh? I dont get it.
Josie
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 11 years ago


Witnesses are predominantly Black.
Apostates are predominantly white.
White apostates claim to highlight black issues in the Watchtower literature out of concern against racism, but are really using the material to promote their white apostate agenda against Black Witnesses.
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago


White apostates claim to highlight black issues in the Watchtower literature out of concern against racism, but are really using the material to promote their white apostate agenda against Black Witnesses.
That's a big slice of pie you just picked up. I suggest you set it down and back away before the real apostates catch wind of this!
 
Ellie
Ellie 11 years ago


I probably shouldn't say this as its highly controversial so I will just stress first of all that I am not in the remotest bit racist, I would never judge anyone on the colour of their skin.
However, it does seem to me that it doesn't matter what you do in life or what your opinions are, you are always going to be called racist at one point or another, both white and black are very quick at pointing the finger.
 
iggy_the_fish
iggy_the_fish 11 years ago


Woo hoo, he's back!
Hey slimboy, I worry about your mental health, man. You really ought to decide once and for all whether you're in or out, or as our 'mercan friends would say, sh*t or get off the pot. It can't be good for your long term happiness, this prevaracation. Or have you decided at last that you're a fully paid up JW? If so, don't let thems elders catch you here. tut tut.
I'm not going to dignify the subject of this thread with any sort of reply, it'll only encourage you, and you've only done it to sling a bit of mud back at them wiley 'poztates, eh?
Learn to think for yourself, it's good clean and wholesome fun. Don't believe all this "gospel according to apostacy" stuff they teach you down at the ol' KH either.
Keep warm and well fed in Bedford, with best wishes from Bucks,
ig.
 
minimus
minimus 11 years ago

Boy, you iz ignant.
 
doogie
doogie 11 years ago


But i think it is worth discussing anyway.
no, it's not
Apostates are predominantly white.
is that right?...i must've overlooked the latest figures. do you have a reference for this?
your post is so full of assumptions that it is essentially meaningless. obviously, you're trying to argue that x-jws grab for anything negative that they can use against the WT. if that is your argument, then argue that. why bring up this presuppositional racism BS? argue the actual pont you're trying to make and leave the fake statistics at the door.
oh, right...you've argued this point before. why don't you just go back and re-read that thread? it'll save everyone a lot of time and accomplish about as much
 
Mecurious?
Mecurious? 11 years ago


Firpo Carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the Watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in Black issues. They are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-Witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal Witnesses are Black.
This may indeed be true to some extent but of course it doesn't change the facts. The WT while claiming to be Gods only true instrument on earth indeed made, implemented and practiced racial discrimination as is evidencied by these quotes:
1898
01. "God ? evidently has been a respecter of races, and has specially blessed and favored certain branches of the Aryan race in Europe and America... the white race has been more abundantly blessed with the light of the Gospel than others ? the elect Church will probably be composed chiefly of the highly favored white race.." The Bible versus the Evolution Theory, 1898, P. 30-1.
02. ?...The negro race is supposed to be descended from Ham, whose special degradation is mentioned in Gen. 9:22, 25.? Zion's Watch Tower, August 1, 1898, P. 230.
1900
03. "There are probably as many as a hundred colored brethren on the Watch Tower lists, some of them very clear in the truth, and very earnest in its service, financially and other-wise ... (but they are not allowed to participate in the "pioneer work" as) although we have received letters from several of these, who had intended engaging in the volunteer work, expressing surprise that in the call for volunteers in the March 1, 1900 issue we restricted the inquiry to white Protestant churches. ... The reason is that so far as we are able to judge, colored people have less education than whites - many of them quite insufficient to permit them to profit by such reading as we have to give forth. Our conclusion therefore is based upon the supposition that reading matter distributed to a colored congregation would more than half of it be utterly wasted, and a very small percentage indeed likely to yield good results. We advise, therefore, that where the Watch Tower literature is introduced to colored people it be not by promiscuous circulation, but only to those who give evidence of some ear for the truth. We avoid, so far as possible, putting the pearls of present truth into the hands of the vicious and depraved ?" Zion?s Watchtower, April 15, 1900, P. 122.
04. "From Black to White He Slowly Turned? Rev. William H. Draper ... gave a living affirmative answer to the famous Biblical question, 'Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots?' Though once as black as charcoal, the Rev. Mr. Draper is now white. His people say that his color was changed in answer to prayer. Many years ago Draper was employed by a fair-skinned man, and he was often heard to remark that if he could only be white like his employer, he would be happy. While in the white man's service Draper 'experienced' religion. From that day forward he prayed constantly and fervently that he might become white... He first experienced a prickling sensation on his face, and upon close investigation found a number of small white spots scarcely larger than the point of a pin. He became alarmed, thinking he had some peculiar disease but he did not suffer and aside from the prickling sensation felt nothing unusual. Gradually the white spots became larger and extended themselves, until now, after the change has been in progress for over 30 years, Draper has not a single dark spot on his body.", Zion?s Watchtower, October 1, 1900 P.296-297.
1901
05. 'It too often happens that, while the Negro rapidly masters the rules and regulations of the Christian religion, he still continues to be gross, immoral, and deceitful. They (missionaries) may have succeeded in turning their disciples into professing Catholics, Anglicans, or Baptists; but the impartial observer is surprised to find that adultery, drunkenness, and lying are more apparent among the converts than among their heathen brethren.' And again: 'I regret to say that, with a few - very rare - exceptions, those native African pastors, teachers, and catechists whom I have met have been all, more or less, bad men. They attempted to veil an unbridled immorality with an unblushing hypocrisy and a profane display of mouth-religion which, to an honest mind, seemed even more disgusting than the immorality itself. While it was apparent that not one particle of true religion had made its way into their gross minds, it was also evident that the spirit of sturdy manliness which was present in their savage forefathers found no place in their false, cowardly natures..", Zion?s Watchtower, August 15, 1901, P. 266.
1902
06. "The Negro Not a Beast ? that Ham's characteristics which had led him to unseemly conduct disrespectful to his father, would be found cropping out later, inherited by his son, and prophetically he foretold that this degeneracy would mark the posterity of Canaan, degrading him, making him servile. We are not able to determine to a certainty that the sons of Ham and Canaan are negroes; but we consider that general view as probable as any other... We are not to forget, either, that Africa is inhabited by various tribes or nations of negroes - some more and some less degraded than the average... While it is true that the white race exhibits some qualities of superiority over any other, we are to remember that there are wide differences in the same Caucasian (Semitic and Aryan) family? The secret of the greater intelligence and aptitude of the Caucasian undoubtedly in great measure is to be attributed to the commingling of blood amongst its various branches; and this was evidently forced in large measure by circumstances under divine control. It remains to be proven that the similar commingling of the various tribes of Chinese for several centuries would not equally brighten their intellects; and the same with the peoples of India and Africa." Zion?s Watchtower, July 15, 1902, P.216.
07. ?Suppose a missionary and his wife removed to China; not only would the influence of the climate and soil be manifested upon themselves, but the same would be still more manifested in their children. Whoever will give careful attention to this matter will notice that each succeeding child born in that foreign country will have increasingly resemblance to the Chinese ? the hair, the skin, the shape of the eyes, and in general all features will bear closer resemblance with each succeeding child. We can readily suppose that if so much change occurs in a few years, ten or twenty centuries under similar conditions would turn any white people into regular Chinese, even supposing there were no intermarrying.? Watchtower Reprints, July 15, 1902, p. 3043.
1903
08. "The second runner, Cushi, or literally a Cushite - that is, a negro - was probably one of the king's household servants ..." Zion?s Watchtower, November 1, 1903, P.410-1.
1904
09. "Can The Ethiopian Change His skin color? No. But? what the Ethiopian cannot do for himself God could readily do for him. The difference between the races of men?have long been arguments against the solidarity of the human family. The doctrine of restitution has also raised the question. How could all men be brought to perfection and which color of skin was the original? The answer is now provided. God can change the Ethiopian's skin in his own due time? Julius Jackson, of New Frankfort, Montana, a Negro boy of nine years, began to grow white in September, 1901, and is now fully nine-tenths white. He assures us that this is no whitish skin disease; but that the new white skin is as healthy as that of any white boy, and that the changed boy has never been sick and never has taken medicines?" (and so God can and will change blacks to whites in the New World)", Zion?s Watchtower, February 15, 1904, P. 52-3.
10. "?hence, the several races of humanity will probably find their spiritual interests as New Creatures best conserved by a measure of separateness." C.T.Russell: Studies in the Scriptures VI - The New Creation, 1904-20, 1923-7, P.490.
1908
11. ?The negro and Latin races will probably always be inclined to superstition." Zion?s Watchtower, April 1, 1908, P. 99.
1914
12. "THE COLOR LINE FOUND NECESSARY. WE might have anticipated that many colored people would be deeply interested in THE PHOTO-DRAMA OF CREATION. But it did not impress itself upon us until gradually their number increased to about twenty-five per cent of the whole audience. Of course, we were glad to see them, glad that they were interested in the DRAMA. We had the same feeling respecting them as others; but it was quickly discerned that it was not a case of feeling, but that, whereas the colored people of New York City are about five per cent of the population, in our audiences they are about twenty-five per cent and the number increasing. What shall we do? As the attendance of the colored people would increase, proportionately the number of the whites would decrease; for explain it how we will, a majority of whites prefer not to intermingle closely with other races. Recognizing that it meant either the success or the failure of the enterprise of the DRAMA as respects the whites, we have been compelled to assign the colored friends to the gallery, which, however, is just as good for seeing and hearing as any other part of The Temple. Some were offended at this arrangement. We have received numerous letters from the colored friends, some claiming that it is not right to make a difference, others indignantly and bitterly denouncing us as enemies of the colored people. Some, confident that Brother Russell had never sanctioned such a discrimination, told that they believe it would be duty to stand up for equal rights and always to help the oppressed, etc. We were obliged to explain the facts, assuring all of our loving interest in the colored people, and of our desire to do them good, and not injury. We again suggested that if a suitable place could be found in which the DRAMA could be presented for the benefit of the colored people alone, we would be glad to make such arrangements, or to co-operate with any others in doing so. Our explanations were apparently entirely satisfactory to all of the fully consecrated. To these we explained that it is a question of putting either the interests of God's Cause first, or else the interests of the race first. We believed it our duty to put God first and the Truth first - at any cost to others or to ourself! We explained that we thought that all the colored brethren should know our attitude toward them - they should know that we love to serve them in any way possible and to give them the very best we have to give of the Gospel Message; and that it is only a question of whether our giving to them in one way would deprive us of giving the Truth to others. Some who were still tenacious and quarrelsome we merely reminded of our Lord's declaration that in inviting visitors into the house it is the place of the host to say where they shall sit, and then we showed them the parable of the man who chose the chief seat of honor and was given a lower one. In answer to the query as to how our course of conduct squared with the Golden Rule, we replied that it squares exactly. We would wish others to put God first. If our personal interests are or ever have been in conflict with the real and apparently best interests of the Lord's Cause, it is a part of our consecration vow to ignore our interests in favor of the interests of the Lord's Cause. This is what we mean by the declaration that we are dead to self and alive to our God as New Creatures. We reminded one dear sister that the Lord enjoins humility, and assures us that unless we humble ourselves we shall not be exalted. If nature favors the colored brethren and sisters in the exercise of humility it is that much to their advantage, if they are rightly exercised by it. A little while, and our humility will work out for our good. A little while, and those who shall have been faithful to their Covenant of Sacrifice will be granted new bodies, spiritual, beyond the veil, where color and sex distinctions will be no more. A little while, and the Millennial Kingdom will be inaugurated, which will bring Restitution to all mankind - restitution to the perfection of mind and body, feature and color, to the grand original standard, which God declared "very good," and which was lost for a time through sin, but which is soon to be restored by the powerful Kingdom of Messiah. Watchtower April 1, 1914 P.110-1.
1919
13. "NEGRO EDUCATION IN CINCINNATI. Blacks from all over the city go to this school by preference. They feel that they can get the best chance by staying in their own crowd, and they are probably right... While it is true that 'of one blood God hath made all nations of men,' nevertheless under present imperfect conditions a wise segregation is probably an advantage to all concerned." Golden Age October 1, 1919 P. 8.
14. "...from a criminal viewpoint the desirability of sobering the southern Negro speaks volumes for national prohibition." Golden Age, October 15, 1919 P.44. Note: The famous book 'Uncle Tom's Cabin', which exposes the inhumane treatment of blacks, is elsewhere described in Golden Age as "the work of Satan".
1926
15. "[Orientals are] coolies ... cutthroats and murderers". Golden Age March 10, 1926 P. 374.
16. "(White rulers as in Britain have the) superior mental, moral, or physical force ... (but be warned, power is slipping as the) powers of the colored races are expanding". Watchtower May 15, 1926, P. 483.
1927
17. "Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, will never be the rulers in this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position". Golden Age February 23, 1927, P. 343.
18. "Spaniards ... and other backward races (came to settle in America under the influence of Rome)". Golden Age November 30, 1927, P.141.
1928
19. "careful observations in a London school showed that children enjoyed the heartiest laughs, not from slapstick comedies, but from ... watching a Negro miner enjoying a square meal". Golden Age 1928, P. 684.
1929
20. "Is there anything in the Bible that reveals the origin of the Negro? It is generally believed that the curse which Noah pronounced upon Canaan was the origin of the Black race. Certain it is that when Noah said, 'Cursed be Canaan, a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren,' he pictured the future of the Colored race. They have been and are a race of servants ... There is no servant in the world as good as a good colored servant, and the joy that he gets from rendering faithful service is one of the purest joys there is in the world." Golden Age July 24, 1929, P. 702.
1932
21. "Jews (are) no longer important to God... Jehovah's Witnesses (are, per a new symbolic meaning given to Romans 11, the only) Israel of God... during the World War the Jews received recognition of the heathen nations. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan's organization, came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors? The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved." J.F.Rutherford: Vindication, Vol. 2, 1932, P. 257-8. Note: Directly contradicting the assertion that Jews would be restored to Palestine and of the conversion of 144,000 literal Jews, stated in the Watchtower June 1880, P. 108.
1934
22. "The Journal of the A.M.A. is the vilest sheet that passes the United States mail... Nothing new and useful in therapeutics escapes its unqualified condemnation. Its attacks are generally ad hominem. Its editorial columns are largely devoted to character assassination... Its editor (a Jew) is of the type of Jew that crucified Jesus Christ." Golden Age September 26, 1934, P. 807.
23. "[Nazi Germany] ... It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.. Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles ... (The) Bible Students are fighting for the SAME high, ethical goals and ideals that the national German Reich proclaimed regarding the relationship of man to God ... there are no opposing views ... but that, to the contrary, respecting the purely religious and apolitical goals ... these are in complete harmony with ... the National Government of the German Reich.. A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness." WTBTS Yearbook 1934, P.134-7 'Declaration of Facts'.
1952
24. "Really, our colored brothers have a great cause for rejoicing. Their race is meek and teachable, and from it comes a high percentage of the theocratic increase." Watchtower February 1, 1952, P. 95.
25. ?If the Watchtower Society is free from racial prejudice, why does it tolerate segregation at its assemblies in certain sections of country? Is this not a course of compromise??F. C., Wisconsin.
Why do we tolerate the segregation laws and policies of certain governments and organizations of this world? Because Jehovah has not commissioned us to convert the world, which is wicked beyond recovery and hence will be destroyed. Jehovah has commissioned us to preach the gospel. Now what should we do? Drop preaching to fight racial issues? We never have separate meetings and baptisms when we can have them together. But when impossible, shall we have separate meetings and baptisms, or none at all? Shall we serve spiritual food to all, even if separately, or serve it to none? Shall we provide baptism for all, even if separately, or provide it for none? Should we buck Caesar's segregation laws, when they do not force us to violate God's laws? God does not forbid separate assembly and baptism, and he commands assembly and baptism. (Matt. 28:19; Heb. 10:25) So should we disobey God to fight a racial issue? To buck the segregation laws would bring on disruption of the witness work, halting of it, mob violence, and possible loss of life. Only laws prohibiting gospel-preaching will we buck at that price.
Some may argue segregation is prohibited by God, citing Galatians 3:28 (NW): "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus." That Paul spoke in a spiritual sense and not in a literal, physical sense is obvious, since actually there were male and female, slave and free, Jew and Greek. Because of the existence of Jew and Greek he specially accommodated himself and his preaching to such classes. (1 Cor. 9:19-22) His recognition of slave and freeman we will consider in more detail, since it bears directly on segregation. How so? Because segregation is rooted in slavery, is the outgrowth and hangover of slavery. Segregation, the stain left by slavery, is a lesser evil than slavery. So if the Bible does not instruct Christians to fight slavery it would not sanction them to battle the lesser evil of segregation, at the expense of gospel-preaching.
Even within the Christian congregation Paul did not protest the slavery of his time. Onesimus was Philemon's slave, and both were Christians. (Philem. 10-16) Paul wrote Timothy, who pictured the society of witnesses today: "Let as many as are slaves under a yoke keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor." Why? "That the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously." Kingdom preaching and Jehovah's vindication are the issues to keep foremost, not creature equality and racial issues. "Moreover, let those having believing owners not look down on them, because they are brothers. On the contrary, let them the more readily be slaves, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved." (1 Tim. 6:1, 2, NW) Here again note that the slavery of those times existed even within the Christian congregation.
Paul also wrote: "In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it. Were you called a slave? Do not let it worry you; but if you can also become free, rather seize the opportunity." If Paul could say this regarding slavery, how much more so can it be said to those discriminated against by segregation laws: "Do not let it worry you." It is no cause for Christian concern or anxiety. But if the Lord's people are in locations where they are free of segregation laws or policies, they rejoice in the greater freedom and delight to be together in assembly. All are slaves of Christ, as Paul goes on to show: "Anyone in the Lord that was called a slave is the Lord's freedman: likewise he that was called a free man is a slave of Christ." (1 Cor. 7:20-24, NW) Surprisingly, some colored brothers have strenuously objected to this, protesting as offensive the use of the word "slave" in the New World Translation. Any who do not wish to be Christ's slave, whether white or black, can cease such service at any time; but they will be slaves nonetheless, only slaves of Satan and sin. (Rom. 6:16-23, NW) Those who magnify human importance soon hide from their view the really vital issues.
Jehovah is no respecter of persons. Neither are his people. But the world in which we live is. Whites are prejudiced against colored, colored are prejudiced against whites. In some colored communities after nightfall a white person would enter at the risk of his very life. To justify this on the grounds that the whites started the discrimination is not Scriptural. (Rom. 12:17) Now, where the danger is extreme should white persons enter these hostile communities and suffer beating and possibly death to prove they have a democratic right to be there? Should a white witness endanger his life to attend a meeting of colored witnesses in such places, or stay overnight with his colored brothers there, just to prove his democratic right to do so?
Many colored persons practice color-prejudice against their own people. Lighter-colored Negroes will shun the darker ones. Some from the Western Hemisphere look down upon the very dark ones from Africa. In South Africa, whites discriminate against the mixed coloreds, the mixed coloreds against the native blacks, the native blacks against the Indian coolies, and in their native India the Indians discriminate against the no caste or outcasts. Who is innocent to throw the first stone? Can we not see that all classes of the human race are evil, that if we start reforming we shall be lost in an impossible task, with endless discriminations and many varieties or injustices to beat down, which crusading social and political organizations of this world have hopelessly fought for years? For us to become like them would be to fail with them, consume our time in such reforms, lose out as Jehovah's witnesses, and please only the Devil.
So let us please God by preaching the gospel despite the undesirable conditions the Devil's world may make for us. Let us not be sidetracked by Satan and caught in a subtle snare camouflaged in lofty motives and ideals. Can we not wait upon Jehovah to avenge the wrongs we suffer now? Really, our colored brothers have great cause for rejoicing. Their race is meek and teachable, and from it comes a high percentage of the theocratic increase. What if the worldly wise and powerful and noble look down on them as foolish and weak and ignoble, not on an equality with self-exalted whites? It is to God's ultimate honor, for he confounds the wise of this world by choosing those the world considers foolish and weak and ignoble. Let us boast in Jehovah and in our equality in his sight, rather than wanting to boast in equality in the world's sight. (1 Cor. 1:26-31, NW) In due time the exalted ones will be humbled, and the humble ones will be exalted. (Matt. 23:12) All of us await this vindication from God, which will come in his due time. Until then, as Paul advised concerning slavery we advise concerning its lingering trace, segregation: "Do not let it worry you." (1 Cor. 7:21, NW) When possible we will meet together, when not possible we will meet separately; but in either event we are always united in spirit, brothers equal in our own sight, in Christ's sight, and in God's sight.? Watchtower, February 1, 1952, P. 95 Questions from Readers
1973
26. "What is the view of Jehovah's Witnesses toward interracial marriage? ... (While interracial marriages are not intrinsically wrong, 'deep-seated prejudices' remain 'in the world' and) "A Christian, being realistic, must face life as it is - not as he wishes it might be." Watchtower December 1, 1973, P. 755-756.
27. ?In race relations, do you see genuine improvement among the nations of the world? Most people readily say 'no'; there are strong racial hatreds on every continent. But we read statements like this one concerning Jehovah's witnesses:
"I am struck with their genuine high regard for the people of all races. Unlike some who pay lip service to the doctrine of racial brotherhood, the Witnesses welcome all to their society?even to places of outstanding leadership?without reference to color or feature."?G. Norman Eddy in Journal of Bible and Religion.? Watchtower 1973 January 15 p.37
1974
28. "At times I detect among certain (Jehovah's Witnesses) leftover attitudes of racial superiority, and I have sometimes seen a certain uncomfortableness of some of them when in close association with persons of another race". Watchtower December 1, 1974, P. 713-714.
29. "Mormons and Racism... at a news conference, Mormon president Spencer W. Kimball was questioned on the Mormon practice of excluding blacks from full and equal privileges in their religion.. Thus the question of racial discrimination was evaded. In refreshing contrast, the Bible plainly says that 'God is not partial' and 'makes no distinction at all' among those sincerely seeking him.-Acts 10:34, 35; 15:7-9." Watchtower November 1, 1974, P.656. Note: This is a great change of position from the WTBTS, who initially supported racial segregation (see 1919), who excluded black members from even sitting in parts of their church (see 1914) and who until recently have been exclusively governed by white American men.
1977
30. ?Even up to a hundred years ago the Catholic Church held the view that blacks were cursed by God. Maxwell explains that this view "apparently survived until 1873 when Pope Pius IX attached an indulgence to a prayer for the 'wretched Ethiopians in Central Africa that almighty God may at length remove the curse of Cham [Ham] from their hearts.'" Awake! Oct. 8, 1977 p.29
1982
31. ?Have the churches of Christendom always treated "everyone on the same basis"? Consider how the Catholic and Lutheran Churches supported Hitler's scheme to produce a "master race." And for centuries the Catholic Church taught that Negroes were a cursed race. John F. Maxwell states in his book Slavery and the Catholic Church that this view "apparently survived until 1873 when Pope Pius IX attached an indulgence to a prayer for the 'wretched Ethiopians in Central Africa that almighty God may at length remove the curse of Cham [Ham] from their hearts.'" Awake! February 8, 1982. P.14-15. Note: Even to this day some church organizations openly practice racial discrimination. Regardless of how politicians and religionists view the matter, the Bible and science indicate that all races are equal and descend from a common source. Interestingly, The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 1970, Vol. 2, page 149, refers to the "scientific concept of the equality of the races" and admits the "scientific validation" of humanity's single origin.
M'
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 11 years ago




 SBF,

You are using a well known apologist tactic. It is called making a mountain out of a mole hill. You know very well that the past racist policies of the WT are a VERY small part, and NOT VERY often discussed issue in the apostates arsenal against the WTS yet your subject line and tone makes it the very core of the movement.
The only exception to this is might be the Mexico/Malawi issue, but thats not really an issue of race anyway is it?


 Bait and switch on brutha
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


Witnesses are predominantly Black.
Apostates are predominantly white.
Really? Is that true? Can you show me some numbers?
Josie
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago



 Wait a minute are you trying to use the "Bell Curve" theory here?
Josie
 
minimus
minimus 11 years ago

This is a dumb thread.
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


i agree this is a dumb thread
Josie ~ damn it i did it again, posted on a stupid thread
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago



 OK< I'm gonna go out on a limb and use an ad mominem attack here. Justifiably. Firpo Carr is a total dumbass. And, Slimboy? You've just answered your own question's. There is no apostate movement per se, especially a white supremacist one. Especially a white supremacist one that points out racism in the jw's
#2 We don't have an interest in black/white issues because that is'nt our agenda, except where it crosses with jw issues. Duh.
#3 I would assume that the percentage of black/white apostates roughly reflects the percentage of black/white witnesses.
 
upside/down
upside/down 11 years ago


Why are Asians (they're not Orientals anymore...tsk tsk) called "yellow"...
I grew up with Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean and the such... none of those heathen bastards was yellow.
Are Eskimos...white?
What if I'm purple... although after too much Don Julio I am green...
I'm confused...
***reaches for rose colored glasses***
There... much better.
u/d
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago




 my kids get confused when someone says they are black because when they look in the mirror and at each other they see brown faces and bodies that arent even close to black.



 when my youngest was born he was very light and my kids kept asking me "mommie when is the baby gonna get brown?"



 Josie
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

Oh yeah, can we have a source please? Where does he say this?
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago


Don't look now...
But I hear Mrs. Jones is black... Shh...
 

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Apostasy - A Racist Movement?
by slimboyfat 11 years ago 81 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower scandals
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mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


I am?!
Josie ~ the watermelon and fried chicken should have been a dead give away
 
diamondblue1974
diamondblue1974 11 years ago


Where have you been hiding slim?....weve missed your wild accusatory posts alongside your refusal to accept who you are....cant wait until you find yourself.



Witnesses are predominantly Black.
Apostates are predominantly white.
White apostates claim to highlight black issues in the Watchtower literature out of concern against racism, but are really using the material to promote their white apostate agenda against Black Witnesses.

Bollocks.




 
Sunspot
Sunspot 11 years ago


Looks like Avishai beat me to it!
Firpo Carr is a very weird, opinionated and over-the-top persn who bathes in the limelight of his own making. ANYTHING he says isn't worthy of discussion.
SlimBoyFat---what ARE you trying to do?
Annie
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 11 years ago

Dedicated to my  family members , nieces and nephew  Lauren, Ashley and Kevin Haszard  that have gone missing in the Jehovah's Witnesses.  
 "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,but not their own facts".D.M. Watchtower Whistleblower: Jehovah's Witnesses are a destructive cult!
 
Dragonlady76
Dragonlady76 11 years ago



 
Pole
Pole 11 years ago


Apostasy - A Racist Movement?


 Is "apostasy" a "movement"? E.g. do people really feel this DB is "an apostate organization"? LOL. If not, how are "apostates" organized into a movement?
Are "apostates" racist?
Are "witnesses predominantly black"?
Now, how is the original question worth discussing if you consider the sub-questions above?
Actually, if anything I can sense some racist undertones in SBF's claims ("apostates are predominantly white - witnesses predominantly black").
Pole
 
crazyblondeb
crazyblondeb 11 years ago


Who the hell is Firpo Carr? Is it me, or is he missing a few marbles? Out of all the stupid threads I've read on several boards, this is a true waste of time & energy. Someone has entirely way too much time on his hands, and is in much need of a reality check or a mental ward!!!
And what brainless twit came up with white apostates have an agenda against black witnesses????Did someone not take their much needed daily medication?!!! To me it sounds like someone has their own agenda. And my personal, white-ass opinion is I sure don't want to hear anymore hot air about some made-up racist movement.
As for me, I smell fried chicken and see the watermelon. Mrs. Jones, can I join ya'll.
shelley
 
Satanus
Satanus 11 years ago

Slimboy looking for some shit to stir. S
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago


I smell fried chicken and see the watermelon. Mrs. Jones, can I join ya'll.
Sadly, there will be no Kool-Aid served ... LOL
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 11 years ago


Firpo Carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the Watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in Black issues.
I don't find the WTS's racist remarks interesting because I'm a bleeding heart white guy who anguishes over the plight of black people, and I would never present that as my motive if an opportunity to show black JW's the remarks ever arose. It's just one of the litany of issues that, if more active JW's --especially black ones -- knew about them, they might wonder about the whole spirit-directed thing.
How many black JW's are aware of these remarks in the old literature? I'd guess very few.
 
Honesty
Honesty 11 years ago


Hello Slim Boy Fat,
Warm Christian Greetings, my friend.
The WTBTS is Apostate Central because they reject the teachings of Christ so, does it matter what color their skin is?
It's been awhile. How have you been? Are you still attending the Promotional Symposiums and weekly sales meetings of the apostate JW cult? I have been praying that you will see the error of the WT ways and press the 'EJECT' button that will free you from their satanic rantings and ritual.
Have a nice day and peace and security to you,
Bob
Walland, TN.
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago


ok... I'm hijacking this thread... cause no one cares lol...

Bob

Walland, TN.
Honesty, that purple avatar makes me think of you as a lady. I just get a giggle when I see that "bob" has a purple mickey mouse avatar.
Sorry
 
Pole
Pole 11 years ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/93116/1.ashx
 
ColdRedRain
ColdRedRain 11 years ago


Josie, where are you hiding the fried chicken!? I want some!

Anyways, to the debunking of this comment filled with logical fallacies and biased assumptions.

most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in Black issues.
Definition of the term "Black issues" please.
They are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-Witness propaganda,

whereas a high percentage of loyal Witnesses are Black.
Kid, I invite you to one of the Minnesota district conventions. The only black person that will be there would be me and I'll be holding up a picket sign.

I know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: Apostacy is a Witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially);
Mostly liberal. Hoo boy. I promise not to laugh out loud at this comment if you promise not to show up with logically weak arguments from a nut that hangs out with a white woman that was formerly a black man.
 
doodle-v
doodle-v 11 years ago



 
sf
sf 11 years ago


The Official Web Site of Dr. Firpo Carr
 The Official Site of Dr. Firpo W. Carr. ... Home, Carr's Bible Translation,
Michael Jackson, The Dr. Firpo Carr Show! New Book Available, Articles Consulted ...
firpocarr.com/_wsn/page4.html - 12k -  Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from firpocarr.com ]
The Official Web Site of Dr. Firpo Carr
... currently heads the non-profit organization, Scholar Technological Institute
of Research, Inc. (STIR Inc.). He can be contacted at firpocarr@aol.com. ...www.firpocarr.com/ - 12k -  Cached - Similar pages
[ Sometimes I get the feeling that 'scholar' who posts here is in fact Firpo, yet I can't be sure ]
"Dr." Firpo Carr, a Typical Watchtower Apologist
"Dr." Firpo Carr, a Typical Watchtower Apologist. by Dr. Jerry Bergman. Firpo Carr is one of the newest self appointed Watchtower apologists. ...www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar2.htm - 8k -  Cached - Similar pages

 
144001
144001 11 years ago

Wow, this is a stupid thread. As Dr. Bergman pointed out in his book, "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Problem of Mental Illness," the Watchtower will not cooperate with any study of the rank and file and strongly discourages any cooperation from the rank and file. The claims that JWs are predominantly black are pure bullshit, as are the claims that apostates are predominantly white. There are no statistics to support these claims, but I think I see the real agenda. It looks like someone is trying to take a swipe at black people by associating them with the brainwashed drones in the "Great Crowd," while asserting that it is caucasions who are smart enough to leave the Watchtower cult.
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

Is that a beard I see on Dr. Firpo Carr? Wow. I'm stumbled. Or does the society have a different standard for the black bro.s.? I thnk brother Prince Rogers Nelson sports a "soul patch" as well. Hmmmm. Oh, wait. I forgot. They have a different standard for WEALTHY bro's. Sorry.
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

I wonder how ol' Firpo felt when he was pushed aside for Jesse Jackson, even tho' MJ was attending meetings, bet that stung like a bitch.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 11 years ago


Firpo Carr, spiritual adviser to Michael Jackson's family
Hmmmmm............must've been written before ole Rev. Jesse Jackson was appointed.....
Take THAT Firpo! Howz it feel to have MJ prayin' with a guy from a false religion, and leavin' YOUR butt in the dust???? Just LOOK at all the free publicity HE got!!!
Annie
 

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Topic Summary
firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.
they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.
i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.



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Apostasy - A Racist Movement?
by slimboyfat 11 years ago 81 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower scandals
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Sunspot
Sunspot 11 years ago


DAYUM, Avi!!!
Are we sharing the same brain today?????

Annie
 
jgnat
jgnat 11 years ago


I prefer the lizard accusations. More reasonable.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/93116/1.ashx
 
talesin
talesin 11 years ago

jgnat, you beat me to the punch! talk about mind-reading .... lol
 
cypher50
cypher50 11 years ago


Towards the original poster:

 
googlemagoogle
googlemagoogle 11 years ago

this thread sucks
 at least one thing JC got right!
ahh.. btw... could someone please enlighten me on what "kool-aid" is? feeling a bit dumb right now...
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago


I have it on good authority that there's a breakaway group from the JWs in Nigeria that is 12 million strong. On that basis, I would suspect that the majority of "apostates" are actually black!
If Minimus denigrates this thread for quality, you just KNOW it's gotta be of poor quality!
Koolaid refers to the activity of another cult, entirely, but the mentality is held in common:http://www.raptureready.com/rr-kool-aid.html
 
doogie
doogie 11 years ago

kool-aid is a refreshing fruit flavored beverage. its tastiness is rivaled only by its refreshment capabilities. OOOOHH YEAH!
 
smelly onions
smelly onions 11 years ago

The truth is I have never seen a black apostate and only saw one hispanic apostate which was rene vazquez. The apostates that I have heard from on the net are usually white anglo saxon americans or europeans like carl jonsson. In latin america you wont see anything of this sort. btw does anyone have any info on those 2?
 
Pleasuredome
Pleasuredome 11 years ago

if the majority of witness are black, then why are the vast majority of HQ leaders white? must be a racist org then.  god you could go on all day with these ridiculess arguements.
 
diamondblue1974
diamondblue1974 11 years ago


god you could go on all day with these ridiculess arguements.
Precisely...SBF's threads generally are designed for that purpose and tend to be designed to provoke a response and usually a negative one which is clearly evident should you go through some of his other threads...in essence should we really be pandering to his egotistical tendencies?
SBF come back when you realise this boards true purpose as opposed to just trying to get people fired up all the time.
DB74
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 11 years ago




1. Witnesses are disproportionately Black. How do I know? 



Well, Firpo Carr quotes Werner Cohn on page 41 of his book "Jehovah's Witnesses: The African American Enigma - A Contemporary Study, Vol. 1", as stating that in the US "membership of the organization was approximately 50% negro." Yet Cohn has been undermined in a number of respects in his scholarship on the Witnesses (See James Backford "Trumpet of Prophecy"), and his figures appear to be merely estimates based on his own observation. However more credible evidence for the disproportionate number of Black members can be found in the most recent edition of James Penton's book "Apocalypse Delayed", page 388, n. 90 where he states that a recent Convention discourse revealed that Blacks account for 18% of the membership in the US, compared with 12% of Blacks in the general population. That represents a significant over-representation of Blacks in the Witness community. 



2. Apostates are disproportionately white. Evidence? 



Showing that apostates are predominantly white is more tricky. Raw figures on the relative race percentiles of defectors would be impossible to gather due to the nebulous nature of the 'apostate movement', to the extent that such can even be styled. Nevertheless, it is an easier task to perform a search for Black's represented among apostate leaders who have published anti-Witness tracts: Raymond Franz, James Penton, Jerry Bergman, Randal Watters, Edmond Gruss... they are all white. I struggle to think of any apostate leaders who are black. Since nearly 20% of Witnesses are Black, we would expect at least some Blacks represented among prominent ex-Witnesses. Can anyone thing of any? 



Interestingly, the Witness apologetics scene is contrastingly small compared with that of published apostates, yet among their depleted ranks there are at least two influential Black proponents: Edgar Foster and Firpo Carr himself. In the absense of firm data for apostates, I submit that their virtual absense from the high-profile apostate scene is at least an indication that Blacks are under-represented in the apostate ranks compared with among Jehovah's Witnesses. 



Thanks for hearing me out...
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


Those quotes read like an opinion gleemed from stats not stated. You got any hard data to back this stuff up?
Josie
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago



 Since nearly 20% of Witnesses are Black
You're contradicting yourself...
Hey, did you give a talk at my hall last Wed night? They sure sounded like you...

 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago


LOL
So the Stats are American? That would be about 1/6th of the WTS membership - hardly representative...
Showing that apostates are predominantly white is more tricky.

Bl**dy impossible, if you ask me - LOL.
Making the whole premise a nonsense!
 
minimus
minimus 11 years ago

My thread's betterer.
 
Pole
Pole 11 years ago

slimboy,
The figures you are giving are not even tentative statistics by any means. Get a basic book on stats and see that both the methods of collecting data and the representativness of the samples you suggest render your conclusions totally useless.
Having said that and taking into consideration the fact that you have admitted that there is no general "movement" of apostates and that you probably can't tell if and how many ex-witnesses are racist, do you still think there is anything to discuss?
Pole
 
dorayakii
dorayakii 11 years ago


The truth is I have never seen a black apostate and only saw one hispanic apostate which was rene vazquez. The apostates that I have heard from on the net are usually white anglo saxon americans or europeans like carl jonsson. In latin america you wont see anything of this sort.
btw does anyone have any info on those 2?
black, british, gay apostate here
 
ezekiel3
ezekiel3 11 years ago


Ridiculous premise.
Does it matter what race a person is to identify racists comments?
Can only Jews identify the Nazi Holocaust, whereas white German groups can't??
The fact is that the WTS has made blatantly racist and/or derogatory statements in writing.
Anyone of any race can identify that.
Slimboyfat your race-card has been trumped!
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

Shit, I'm 1/4 muppet on my mom's side. It was a shameful secret until the sixties, but after the wummer of love and all, it was cool. She was like th token muppet, even if a JW at parties. I mean, sure, kermit shuns me for being "not floppy enough," (G-D reverse racism) but I'm down with oscar (I hear tell he's not 100% muppet himself). It really helped with gesturing, and getting my point across with talks. Did it cause Jealousy? Yeah. Did I get called on the carpet because of it? YEah, aybe, i was a developing teen, and well, ya know the chairs at the circuit assembly halls? The orange a nd green velour ones? Well, all i was doing was drawing designs, but I get called in for "loose conduct". Just 'cus" I'm !/4 muppet. Taht was the beggining of the end for me. Next thing I know, I'm bonging speedballs of tide and woolite, before I finally realized i was ok.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 11 years ago

ANYTHING quoted from Firpo Carr gets the gets the Good Housekeeping seal of disapproval. Its as simple as that. His credibility, showoffsmanship and beard are valid reasons to dismiss anything he says as anything worthwhile.
 

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Topic Summary
firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.
they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.
i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.



Related Topics
The Searcher
A First Stepping-Stone For Bethelites & Lurkers?
by The Searcher 5 months ago
slimboyfat
Dissenters in Watchtower History: Differing Departures
by slimboyfat 4 months ago
The Searcher
Missionary Deceptively/Mistakenly Misquotes Scripture.........
by The Searcher 6 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
Saved_JW
Jehovah's Witnesses - People of Integrity
by Saved_JW 5 months ago



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Apostasy - A Racist Movement?
by slimboyfat 11 years ago 81 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower scandals
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richard
richard 11 years ago


influential Black proponents: Edgar Foster and Firpo Carr
'Influential'? How so?
 
Cat-er-daynightfever
Cat-er-daynightfever 11 years ago


I see nothing but idiocy in your statements, SBF. Jehovah's Witnesses that really believe that God is not partial take that feeling to their grave even if they leave the JWs. Any mention of JWs & their racist comments after having left is just another fact to be added to the rest of the lies told us. I was under the impression that since God was not partial neither were the "anointed". I had no idea of said information published in the publications until I did leave. I tell you that I see more discrimination of social class based on how much money you earned and whether you were related to the elders/ministerial servants/pioneers. When I was able to see such quotes, it gave me more reason to believe that all the talk throughout the 80s that JWs were not racist at all was nothing but bunk!
I have met many people who like to throw the back-door racist comments on those who've done nothing but respect all people. Frankly, I don't believe that an apostate movement actually exists to the extent that you are saying. Otherwise we would be seeing the development of another kind of Borg. Maybe there are Apostafests, but I have never heard of any one single apostate leader becoming a pastor for the rest. I don't believe that those who are truly sincere would ever say such things unless they were true. All-in-all, I think you are just trying to confuse the real issue that bothers you. I agree with the others. You are just trying to start a fight and waste our time.
Just because we left the Borg, doesn't mean that many of our core beliefs are not the same. Like the Basic command, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Wake up and smell the roses. Nobody here is making truly racist comments. They are just repeating what they've seen quoted and are appalled by the lies. Quit wasting my time!
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 11 years ago


The truth is I have never seen a black apostate and only saw one hispanic apostate which was rene vazquez. The apostates that I have heard from on the net are usually white anglo saxon americans or europeans like carl jonsson. In latin america you wont see anything of this sort.
I have never seen ANY apostate, let alone check the level of their pigment.
So, where is the oficial list of:

VOCAL white apostates?
QUIET, non-influential apostates?
VOCAL black apostates or apologists?
QUIET black apostates?

The whole premise is asinine.
 
Panda
Panda 11 years ago

It has been my priveledge to teach and lecture in the PRC. What I spent many hours on with my students was learning the concept of the "human race," We are the only race of humans. No one is yellow, or black or ...ok I am really really pale but won't be white until I'm dead. So why insite hatred with psuedo racist psuedo facts? You are a foolish person if you think anyone takes you seriously. (Unless you are a serial killer loyal dub and you are looking for negativity and rejection in order to get off).
 
smelly onions
smelly onions 11 years ago


black, british, gay apostate here
You would be the only one I never met. SBF is right on the money. The apostate movement was begun by whites and its ranks are mostly white. By and large hispanics and blacks could care less about doctrinal discrepancies. Somwthing they told me themselves. They are less apt to question theology and when faced with contradictions they just shrug it off.

Many hispanics have told me that why is the child molestation such a problem amongst americans. Here I'm speaking about the USA in general not the org. They (hispanics) have told me that hardly occurs amongst latinos here in the USA and in latin america. I didn't have an answer for him.
 
RichieRich
RichieRich 11 years ago


Ok... lets keep these two apart...
Can we lock this thread??
 
jimakazi
jimakazi 11 years ago


Firpo Carr argues
 Who the hell is Firpo Carr and why should we give a toss.
Your could argue the JW use of the term "apostate" is a derogertory term used by JW's to descriminate anyone who has left the JW's and doesn't agree with them. In many countries it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion isn't it?
 
AlanF
AlanF 11 years ago


Firpo Carr is nothing but a self-promoting horse's ass. He claims to be "of the anointed", yet is on his 4th wife. The others divorced him for treating them with extreme arrogance. He has to move congregations every few years because he wears out his welcome by conning the locals, but avoids disfellowshipping because he's smart enough to put the elders in an extremely awkward position if they take action against him. So, like a government supervisor who wants to get rid of a lousy employee but can't fire the moron because of government work rules, the elders just sort of pass him on to the next bunch of suckers.
The fact is that most JW-critics (call them apostates if you like; it doesn't amount to a hill of beans) are concerned with all manner of human rights, no matter what race or color the humans in question are. There is only one "apostate agenda": to get the word out on the destructive nature of the Watchtower cult. If one insists that there's a "white apostate agenda", then it's exactly the same as a supposed "black apostate agenda". And let it be understood that most of these critics are acting on their own, being far too independent to form some sort of "apostate movement".
The point of critics' bringing up racism in early Watchtower literature is not out of concern for racism per se, but to show that the God of non-racism could not have had anything to do with Watchtower literature. Carr's associating race with "apostates" is just another of his stupid tactics to promote himself.
The fact that blows away Carr's claim is that some of the most effective online "apostates" are black. They simply don't promote their race, because it's a non issue. For instance, James Mitchell, when he posts on JWD, is extremely effective in getting the message across that the JWs are a destructive cult.
The fact that blacks in American JW congregations are disproportionately represented compared to the population as a whole simply reflects the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are a religion that tends to attract the poor and disadvantaged. Why is this so attractive? Because it offers the dream of getting something people know they probably can't get in real life. In America, blacks as a group are certainly classed by sociologists as more toward the "poor and disadvantaged" end of the social spectrum than are whites. But then, so are certain other groups. Why pick out blacks and ignore other disadvantaged groups?
I'll tell you why: Firpo Carr's self-promoting agenda.
Furthermore, nearly all of the most vocal JW apologists are white, so I suppose that must mean there's some hidden "JW apologist agenda" to put down blacks by excluding them from the ranks of apologists.
AlanF
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


By and large hispanics and blacks could care less about doctrinal discrepancies. Somwthing they told me themselves.




 O.K. I just got done puking. Did all of those black people tell you that or just a chosen few? Smelly you sure love those blanket statements dont you? Darling you dont know what youre talking about. Please remove your large foot from your tiny mouth.
Josie
 
EvilForce
EvilForce 11 years ago

Smelly your simplistic and nim witted comments on this thread are as bad as a Dr. Suess book. Never tease a weasel, no never once or twice, no never tease a weasel, no it's not very nice.
Your own limited life experience, world travel, and higher education show themselves quite clearly in your posts Smelly. You can take the boy out of the Kingdumb Hall but you cannot take the Kingdumb Hall out of the boy.
Have you bothered to do ANY research into your comments before you posted them? NO!
There are Meet Up ex Jo Ho groups around the world. There is both a large Brazilian and Mexican gay ex-Jo Ho chapters of A Common Bond. There are at least 7 sites in spanish for these folks that I uncovered in 10 minutes of google searching.
Let's think for just a moment why we not be "overwhelmed" with apostates from Latin America? First off have you bothered to look up the figures at how many Jo Ho's there are in Latin America? There are a million in the USA. In the largest 4 latin American countries of Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatamala, and El Salvador, there are only about 90,000. On top of the pool being so much smaller....the socio-economic status of these folks is a fraction of America's. Jo Ho's tend to be less educated and poorer than the general masses. Many if not most Latin Americans cannot afford their own computer and internet connection. If they do use the internet it usually is at internet cafes.
Use that God given brain of yours and put it to use before pushing the "submit" button next time.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 11 years ago


The fact that blacks in American JW congregations are disproportionately represented compared to the population as a whole simply reflects the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are a religion that tends to attract the poor and disadvantaged. Why is this so attractive? Because it offers the dream of getting something people know they probably can't get in real life.
BRAVO Alan! I read this three times to make sure I understood it correctly, and the more I thought about this---the more I thought back over the past 30 JW years and saw that you were absolutely right from what I have observed.
I like the way you put things.
When I became a JW I was poor (low end of the spectrum with an employed hubby and almost five kids in a not-so-great end of the city because that's all we could afford AND landlords that would "take kids") and the KH I belonged to was predominately black.
We were all in the same boat economically---but the chances of the black families moving to nicer housing and schools was far less likely than our chances of "bettering ourselves". It was just a given. in that (70's) society.
As many problems that I encountered and endured as a JW-----the racial issue simply was not one of them.
My God, as I write this I'm flooded with memories of that time; my parents hated JW AND blacks---so they were doubly annoyed with me when I got baptized, and even went so far as to do some parking lot checking after a meeting or two to see the ratio of blacks to whites!!!!
I won't go on, because I'm already hijacking this topic royally, but all this crap started over Firpo Carr made me think...

Annie
Annie
 
toladest
toladest 11 years ago


I just want to say that I don't like using the terms black and white when describing people, but for the purpose of this thread I will. I hate the term African American as well, because not all "black people" are from Africa. Why can't we all be just people? Anyway......
Using the logic in the original post, I would have to say that JW's are almost ALL WHITE! The congergation I grew up in was ALL WHITE for many years. After a while we had one black family (Mother, father two daughters) that moved in. A few years after that we had a hispanic couple move in.
Oh. but wait! Later I moved to another congergation that was almost all black. So witnesses MUST be mostly Black!
Wohoooo wait another minute. Now I live in a small town in western Colorado were there are 2 congergations. This town is almost all white and hispanic. So MOST witnesses MUST be white and hispanic!!!! Oh and most JW's MUST be cowboys, since there are SO many cowboys here!
Oh and Smelly, you must really get around. You said:
"By and large hispanics and blacks could care less about doctrinal discrepancies. Somwthing they told me themselves. They are less apt to question theology and when faced with contradictions they just shrug it off."
That is really an ignorant comment. Have you spoken to ALL black and hispanic people? You are making a sweeping statement there. You make it sound as if you believe that black people and hispanics are too lazy or ignorant to worry about doctrinal issues. I know MANY black and hispanic people that are VERY interested in doctrinal issues. I have a close hispanic friend, originally from Chihuahua, Mexico, that has many family members that are Seventh Day Adventist. Doctrinal issues were very important to her in her decision not to go along with that religion. I also know a LOT of white people, many in my own family that are willing to shrug off doctrinal evidence, either because they are too ignorant, too lazy, or just want to be led blindly and not admitt to the farce they have followed all these years.
The post you started also made a very sweeping statement. Maybe you should rephrase your statements to include only what YOU actually know to be true. Don't assume that because one black person, white person, hispanic, or apostate thinks one way that they all do. That is Racism at its best!
 
G Money
G Money 11 years ago

Smelly Onions says that hispanics say there is no abuse among hispanics??? Like they are going to admit it? Was this comment regarding witnesses or hispanics in general. Sexual abuse in my opinion is higher among hispanics although I have no data for the witnesses.
I believe that sexual abuse among hispanics is higher than among americans in general. Just browse any sex offender database and you'll see that the amount of hispanic offenders is larger than their percentage of the population at large and the largest of any ethnic group in most areas that are not homogenous.
Often the crime is not reported and the numbers are larger.
 
dorayakii
dorayakii 11 years ago


By and large hispanics and blacks could care less about doctrinal discrepancies. Somwthing they told me themselves.
so let me get this straight smelly... some blacks and hispanics told you they couldn't care less about doctrinal discrepancies?...... a hispanic or black just walked up to you and said, "oh i don't care about doctrinal matters, i prefer to just accept everything spoon-fed" ?
putain de merde... If you actually listen to what you say before you say it, or read over what you've typed before sending it, if you're reasonable, you will see that what you have written is a complete load of dog's bollocks. o_O
 
G Money
G Money 11 years ago

Oh, and in case anybody wanted an explanation for my comments...
This is due to a machismo attitude in latin american countries coupled with the facts that the police are corrupt / lazy and prosecuting crimes against women is nearly impossible. Also there is a shame and stigma so many don't report crimes. Even ones that lives in the US carry the old world fears and theories with them.
 
seattleniceguy
seattleniceguy 11 years ago


SBF,
This really is a silly thread. Note:
◦There is no such thing as an "apostate movement." "Apostates" are merely people who have disagreed with and removed themselves from the JW organization.
◦You have no statistics whatsoever on race among people who have left the JW organization. It is not possible to accurately infer statistics based on "leaders" in a movement that does not exist.
◦As IP_SEC pointed out, charges of racism in early JW doctrine comprises only the tiniest portion of the "apostate" arsenal. Personally, I have never invoked such a charge. I am content to stay in the realm of science.
It is good to see you on the board, though. And hey, it's never too late to join the movement. :smile:
SNG
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago

SNG:
 Would that be the bowel "movement" for the anally retentive?
 
smelly onions
smelly onions 11 years ago


Smelly your simplistic and nim witted comments on this thread are as bad as a Dr. Suess book. Never tease a weasel, no never once or twice, no never tease a weasel, no it's not very nice.
Your own limited life experience, world travel, and higher education show themselves quite clearly in your posts Smelly. You can take the boy out of the Kingdumb Hall but you cannot take the Kingdumb Hall out of the boy.
Evil force, continue using ad hominems while I deal in facts. Attack the argument not the genius who stated the argument. If your defense has to resort to the person you don't have much of a defense.
btw, dr seuss is full of knowledge.
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


Evil force, continue using ad hominems while I deal in facts.

 LMAO!!! this is what fact means: fact (fakt) pronunciationn.
1.Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
3.A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
4.Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.

A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.

Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact
 Smelly, I havent seen you do any of this, well maybe number 5 - you believe you know and state facts.



 Josie ~ "just the facts ma'am"

•what_Truth?
what_Truth?

Slimboyfat. I must admit that your ideas are unique and thought provoking. However, I must admit that I disagree with your reasonings. Heres Why.
First you say that black people make up roughly 18% of the American JW community while making up 12% of the US population. However the vast majority of JW's live in the North Eastern USA and come from cities that have disproportionaly black populations compared to the rest of the country. Black people making up 20% of JW's in Salt Lake City would mean one thing while black people making up 20% of JW's in Philidelphia would mean another thing altogether.
There are also very valid reasons why the majority of so-called apostates are white as well. White people hold a lot more power than anyone else in America and therefor have better options to deal with the family and community shunning that goes along with becoming a public apostate. Also, white people tend to be a lot less Christian oriented than black people are. It's a lot less taboo for us to get involved in things like Buhdism, Wicca, black magic, and of course, so-called apostasy.
The reason why the most vocal apostates you mentioned are white is because most of them were high ranking JW officials at a time when such ranks were off limits to black people. Back when Raymond Franz was in the GB it was an exclusively whiteboy club. Therefor there is no way a black person could write a book from his perspective.
It should also be mentioned that there are at least a few anti-Jehovah's Witness statements made by black people. The song "Ain't no Mystery" by Brand Nubian has some anti-JW sentiments as do songs by former JW K-OS.
 

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Topic Summary
firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.
they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.
i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.



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Apostasy - A Racist Movement?
by slimboyfat 11 years ago 81 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower scandals
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love2Bworldly
love2Bworldly 11 years ago


I have only seen high percentages of blacks at KHs in parts of town where a high percentage of blacks live. Therefore, in places where there is a higher percentage of blacks--the nonJW churches in those parts of town also have a higher percentage of black church-going folks. DUH This is a stupid thread. There is a higher percentage of whites in America than other races, therefore there is a higher percentage of white JW's and white so called Apostates.
Not rocket science people.
 
sweet tee
sweet tee 11 years ago


I can't believe I read the whole thread . Thanks everybody for giving sbf and so your feedback.
That's all.
Tam
 

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Topic Summary
firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.
they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.
i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.



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