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Who was the biggest Jehovah's Witness rebel?
by slimboyfat 7 years ago 58 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

Who was raised a JW and went on to lead life in stark contrast to their upbringing?
I have often thought the award should go to Dwight Eisenhower. From a religion that railed against politics and warfare he first invaded Western Europe and then went on to become president of the United States. You don't get a rebellion much bolder than that.
Michael Jackson turning into a Muslim and wearing a woman's veil seems pretty tame by comparison.
And who says a Witness upbringing necessarily holds you back from being who you want?
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

Dwight Eisenhower was raised as a JW? I've never heard that one and I've been around JWs for a long time.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

He kept it a secret.
http://www.seanet.com/~raines/eisenhower.html
Also info about it in Marley Cole's book Jehovah's Witnesses - The New World Society.
 
poppers
poppers 7 years ago

Ike smoked like a chimney too.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 7 years ago

Ike smoked like a chimney too.
No big deal, so did Rutherford. It was only a problem in the late(?) 70's to smoke.
Not before that.
I imagine there are tons of great examples, but they are unheard of unless they
gained fame. Lots of JW's kids rebeled and went into rebellion.
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

Fascinating, there's hope for us all.
 
orangefatcat
orangefatcat 7 years ago

one big name in JW's that was a rebel and started teaching things his way was a brother inQuebec who had been imprisoned over a hundred times during the years of persecution in Canada and the ban in Quebec. Many may recall him... he is Laurier Summuar. I think that is how his last name is spelled. It was gossipped that he also had a serious drinking problem however I don't know if that is true of not. Some one else told me he was eventually reinstated. Is there anyone who knows any thing more of this person.
orangefatcat
 
yknot
yknot 7 years ago

I agree it is hard to top IKE......
As far as smoking..... it wasn't a DFing offense during his upbringing & presidency .
I think it became a DFing offense about the time I was born (1973).
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

I never heard of the years of persecution or the ban in Quebec either. When was this?
I don't remember smoking being a disfellowshipping offense. It was looked down on and discouraged but not disfellowshipping. I even knew somebody that smoked in private. She was a "friend" of our family. She faded before my parents did.
 
FairMind
FairMind 7 years ago

1973 is correct. I smoked right up till May of 1973.
 
FairMind
FairMind 7 years ago

1973 is correct. I smoked right up till May of 1973.
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

Fairmind:
1973 is when I left. So I'm sure you're right. I didn't ask any questions about what was going on at the KH. I didn't want to know and everyone knew it. Actually, that's when our family friend, Kate, left too. The ban on smoking was probably the last straw for her.
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 7 years ago

Trying not to split hairs here, but Eisenhower was raised under the bible students and his childhood would have included Christmas,Birthdays, College, and so many other things that are now either taboo or forbidden. Other than their wacky Armageddon beliefs and no politics, he pretty much had a normal childhood.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 7 years ago

I think Booze Rutherford was the worst. He did more than become the President of the United States. He actually tampered with the religion itself, adding numerous stupid rules and doctrines that were not originally there.
 
eyeslice
eyeslice 7 years ago

Come on guys you got it all wrong here. Where is your 'Bible-based'® knowledge?
It is Satan of course.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

hi slim
I think this is very interesting from your link
All of the Eisenhower boys left the Jehovah's Witness religion when adults and openly opposed major aspects of Watchtower teaching, although some of the values they learned from their Bible studies probably influenced them throughout their lives. Some Watchtower values may even have been reflected in Dwight's statements against war made in his latter life.
"some of the values they learned...influenced them throughout their lives" (I'm remembering some of the positive things you said about JWism in another thread)
JWism is a very duty based religion. Eisenhower is an excellent example to explore because he seems to have retained a sense of duty but moderated it with broader intellectual, political, social, emotional etc pursuits. My own journey involves grappling with not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and retaining a sense of acting from duty but also moderating that with acting from emotion, thinking ability etc.
(Plus I'm working on an essay about Wilberforce's duty based religious ideas to get the middle and higher classes to set a good example for "the lower orders" because of their inclination towards irrationality) Eisenhower and Wilberforce could have been twins imo.
 
Satanus
Satanus 7 years ago

Laurier saumure wasn't actually rebelling against wt. His drinking problem was a weakness, which he fought against. I came in contact w him a few times cuz my room mate was friends w him. It was pitiful to hear him tell what a nightmare alchoholism was to him, how he valiantly went door to door and conducted bible studies in his old age to try to prove his worthiness to stay jw. He had been dffed and reinstated a few times:(
S
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

Laurier saumure wasn't actually rebelling against wt. His drinking problem was a weakness, which he fought against. I came in contact w him a few times cuz my room mate was friends w him. It was pitiful to hear him tell what a nightmare alchoholism was to him, how he valiantly went door to door and conducted bible studies in his old age to try to prove his worthiness to stay jw. He had been dffed and reinstated a few times:(
S
what a sad vicious cycle
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

Satanus that story sounds similar to Covington in the US.
quietlyleaving that is interesting stuff you are studying. I wish I was still researching and writing essays.
It's possible that his JW background affected Eisenhower's dislike of warfare in later years, but I think it is fair to say that his experiences during the liberation of Europe likely loomed large in his thinking. It has often been claimed that soldiers make good political leaders because no one wants to avoid war more than an ex-soldier who has seen its devastating effects first hand. Wes Clark might be another example in recent times of a soldier with anti-war views once in retirement.
Anti-militarism is one of the things I still find appealing in the JW outlook.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

after ww2 heaps of money and scientific resources were being channelled into weaponery. Eisenhower strongly objected. Here is a quote from a reply to a journalist
"When you see almost every one your magazines no matter what they are advertising, has a picture of the Titan missile or the Atlas missile...there is...almost an insidious penetration of our own minds that the only thing this country is engaged in is weaponry and missiles. And, I'll tell you we just can't afford to do that. The reason we have them is to protect the great values in which we believe, and they (those values) are far deeper even than our lives and our own property, as I see it."
 

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Who was the biggest Jehovah's Witness rebel?
by slimboyfat 7 years ago 58 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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yknot
yknot 7 years ago

Satanus that story sounds similar to Covington in the US.
Such a sad ending too.
Many in my old KH absolutely loved Covington, much of my theocratic career prep was based on listening to tapes of him talking about the cases. He was very reflective of his era and generation.
 
blondie
blondie 7 years ago

Scarred, you have been out of touch for awhile.



*** w73 6/1 pp. 340-341 pars. 22-24 Keeping God’s Congregation Clean in the Time of His Judgment ***What, then, of those who in the past were baptized while still using such addictive products as tobacco, other drugs, or who are on some treatment such as the "methadone program" and who continue in such practice? They may now be given a reasonable period of time, such as six months, in which to free themselves of the addiction. So doing, they will show their sincere desire to remain within Jehovah God’s clean congregation of dedicated servants.
23
 Surely if one can go through the agonizing experience of withdrawal from "hard"-drug addiction in order to become a true disciple of God’s Son, then those addicted to tobacco or similar products should have no sound objection to undergoing the lesser suffering of withdrawing from their addiction. Refusal to do so would certainly set a very poor example for the person striving to overcome a "hard"-drug habit who faces a much more difficult challenge.
24
 If persons already baptized are not willing to abandon their addiction to damaging and enslaving products, what then? Then they show that, like Esau, they do not ‘appreciate sacred things,’ preferring such habits to the privilege of being part of Jehovah’s clean people. They should therefore be removed from the congregation due to such conduct unbecoming a Christian.—1 Cor. 5:7; Heb. 12:15, 16.
 
NewTruth
NewTruth 7 years ago

I vote for Raymond Franz.. because not only did he leave but he helped thousands of other leave too, with his books.. Although Dwight and Jackson are good, they didn't concentrate on bringing so many out with them.
 
Gozz
Gozz 7 years ago

So, that's it.
The Spirit Appointed time period to quit smoking is 6-months.
.
 
tresdecu
tresdecu 7 years ago

Blondie, your 73WT quote brought up an interesting question:

*** w73 6/1 pp. 340-341 pars. 22-24 Keeping God’s Congregation Clean in the Time of His Judgment ***What, then, of those who in the past were baptized while still using such addictive products as tobacco, other drugs, or who are on some treatment such as the "methadone program" and who continue in such practice? They may now be given a reasonable period of time, such as six months, in which to free themselves of the addiction. So doing, they will show their sincere desire to remain within Jehovah God’s clean congregation of dedicated servants.
23
Surely if one can go through the agonizing experience of withdrawal from "hard"-drug addiction in order to become a true disciple of God’s Son, then those addicted to tobacco or similar products should have no sound objection to undergoing the lesser suffering of withdrawing from their addiction. Refusal to do so would certainly set a very poor example for the person striving to overcome a "hard"-drug habit who faces a much more difficult challenge.
24
If persons already baptized are not willing to abandon their addiction to damaging and enslaving products, what then? Then they show that, like Esau, they do not ‘appreciate sacred things,’ preferring such habits to the privilege of being part of Jehovah’s clean people. They should therefore be removed from the congregation due to such conduct unbecoming a Christian.—1 Cor. 5:7; Heb. 12:15, 16.

The "methadone program" ... is this still fresh light!? I never heard that one. I know several active JWs in high places that take methadone for pain. Not to mention ongoing oxycontin prescriptions for severe pain...does the WT consider them unclean??
Interesting.
 
OBVES
OBVES 7 years ago

There might be some exceptions but my feeling is that most that left the organization after the failed date 1975 could be the biggest rebel collectivelly speaking . They lost all way of religious life as if they were now the atheists ,enemies of studying the Bible , they live awkward lives and I would not wish to be in their shoes for a moment .This is my impression I am getting .
 
blondie
blondie 7 years ago

First, Eisenhower graduated from West Point in 1915. That means he was not ever in a jw family. He would have been in the Russell/Bible Student era. In that period, the stress to study and train your children as it is today was not the same. Many families did not even take children to the meetings or put them down to sleep in the back room while the parents "dug" into the Studies.
 
AudeSapere
AudeSapere 7 years ago

Dwight Eisenhower was raised as a JW? I've never heard that one and I've been around JWs for a long time.
It was cited in WT literature. Specifically I remember it being in a Yearbook in the mid-70's. (Possibly the one where it chronicled the development and growth history of the WTS.) There is much interesting info if you google: Dwight Eisenhower Mother Nice thread. I think I would have to vote Eisenhower, too, for biggest JW rebel. From JW pawn to Leader of the Free World. C'mon. Is there really anyone else that comes close? -Aude.
 
AudeSapere
AudeSapere 7 years ago

Blondie wrote: First, Eisenhower graduated from West Point in 1915. That means he was not ever in a jw family. He would have been in the Russell/Bible Student era. In that period, the stress to study and train your children as it is today was not the same. Many families did not even take children to the meetings or put them down to sleep in the back room while the parents "dug" into the Studies.

OK. Not raised JW in the sense the we were raised. But his mother was highly active - as a JW - until her death.
The family home was used for 'Bible Student' meetings and he was raised with conviction by proseltyzing parents.
The witnesses claim him as having been raised 'in the truth' [as it was understood at the time], so we probably can, too.
-Aude.
 
SPAZnik
SPAZnik 7 years ago

RAYMOND FRANZ comes to mind. All the way to the Governing Body and then rebels, OPENLY. :O) ///////// And yes, I love it that the 34th Prez wuz raised a dub. I just read that link too, from someone else's thread about Jerry Bergman's articles. It's encouraging to be reminded that anything is possible. It's not surprising, though. Makes perfect sense in the case of Eisenhower. Religion and government are both political technologies. Not a huge leap, except if he went from being a follower to being a leader. :smile: Yet boys have been known to turn into men. Is that rebellion or growth? The different religions (and governments) are simply different BRANDS of political technology. Each brand has it's advantages, disadvantages, pros, cons, loyalists, and defectors. Happy shopping. Happy defecting. :smile:
 
no more kool aid
no more kool aid 7 years ago

Mr Franz gets my vote.
 
treadnh2o
treadnh2o 7 years ago

Prince must make the top 10 list.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

If we are talking about rebels, Ray Franz has to be #1. No one has done more to break through the fog of borgbot BS like his leaving.
Without Crisis of Conscience, how many tens of thousands would have left without a real understanding of what goes on behind the scenes? The expose brought about peace for many people, myself included. I am not burdened by the indoctrination of what happens to people after they leave JW's, and I credit Franz with much of that.
 
5go
5go 7 years ago

Franz gets my vote.
It still send minor tremors through a JW when you bring up that a governing body member left and turned apostate.
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

Yeah, Ray Franz definitely gets my vote. He's one of my heroes. But that's very interesting about Dwight Eisenhower. I have even more respect for him now and all that he accomplished.
 
Lady Lee
Lady Lee 7 years ago

For info on the ban of JWs in Quebec Canada see Roncarelli vs. Duplessis/Province of Quebec
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

Scarred, you have been out of touch for awhile.
Yes, Blondie, and I'm so happy about that. For the most part, I really don't want to know what the current rules and regulations and teachings are in the JWs. I haven't cared in 37 years and have tried to stay as far away as possible. I'm mostly only interested in the long-term psychological effects that this cult has on its former members.
 
gymbob
gymbob 7 years ago

I vote for Ray Franz....but Richie Rich should at least get an honorable mention!
 
Outaservice
Outaservice 7 years ago

If my memory serves me correctly, Eisenhower's parents (maybe just mother) were associated with a group called River Bretheren when he was younger and then later when Dwight was an adult, then became Jehovah's Witnesses (Bible Students).
Outaservice
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

hey guys I think Fred Franz should get a mention too. Imo he was rebel within the organisation. If I remember corrrectly, Ray in Crises of Conscience does draw attention to the fact that his uncle encouraged his to think for himself and to entertain unusual subversive hypotheses.
Fred was 84 when he got appointed president - how come he wasn't appointed sooner.
In 1942 when Knorr was appointed president, Fred Franz was 49 to Knorr's 37. Did Franz not get appointed because he did not follow WTS thinking to the letter ans was little too spiritual? When he finally got appointed was he considered too old to cause trouble?
Also he wrote all those imaginative watchtower articles that kept us coming back for more but also when he stopped writing for the watchtower it subconsciouly clued us to think about leaving as the articles became very dry and boring.
edit - here is a pic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FrederickWilliamFranz-atBrooklynBethel.png


 

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Topic Summary
who was raised a jw and went on to lead life in stark contrast to their upbringing?.
i have often thought the award should go to dwight eisenhower.
from a religion that railed against politics and warfare he first invaded western europe and then went on to become president of the united states.



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Who was the biggest Jehovah's Witness rebel?
by slimboyfat 7 years ago 58 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Twitch
Twitch 7 years ago

everybody who reads this :wink:
 
tenyearsafter
tenyearsafter 7 years ago

I go with Ray Franz...I don't think Fred would qualify since he was the architect of much of the madness!
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

Freddie was a rebel for JW's. He rebelled against all reasonable scholarship, represented himself as someone who knew Hebrew and Greek better then what he really did, and especially is responsible for the types and antitypes for JW prophecy that continues to tar this group.
Rebel, yes, but only against logical, oxygen breathing scholars. Some of his takes on bible charecters = Presidents of the WTBTS should have triggered a drug test on Freddie.
 
tenyearsafter
tenyearsafter 7 years ago

Well said Jeff!
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

I don't think Freddie is a popular choice so I'm withdrawing him and vote for Ray Franz instead
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

I don't think Freddie is a popular choice so I'm withdrawing him and vote for Ray Franz instead
No need to withdraw. He did have a rebellious streak in him. Of course, Freddie is as popular as the ebola virus to ex JW's, and probably hastened their demise with his ridiculous promotion of 1975. To that I say, "Cheers!"
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 7 years ago

I read Carl Olaf Jonsson and the Crisis of Conscience. Jonsson was an elder and continues to publish. So he should be in the top 10 of rebels
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 7 years ago

Gentile Times Reconsidered
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago


and probably hastened their demise with his ridiculous promotion of 1975.
Hastened their demise? Franz's 1975 prediction saved the Watchtower organization! They were beginning to fade in the 1960s. Only when the 1975 prediction came along did they begin to see growth again, and the organization had a new spring in its step. Any who left because of the 1975 are vastly outnumbered by those they gained through the whole affair. Embarrassment aside it was a net gain for the organization. If they ever realise this at the top then some Machiavellian type Watchtower leader might be tempted to try date setting again some time.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

Embarrassment aside it was a net gain for the organization.
Thats an excellent counterpoint. It was a net gain. But this "gain" is a little too termite infested in my view. Times have changed.
Just a hypothesis, but if they tried a Machiavellian type date setting again, they will have 1975 thrown back in their face. They will have their bogus scholarship on all their accepted dates (607 vs 586 BCE, the Gentile Times, etc) used as a direct counterpoint. And what about that pesky "generation" term change in '94?
There was no way for the flock to research all the dates back then. There was really no organized ex JW community at all. JW's living in their own bubble caused it to work. I don't think that will ever happen again.
Most importantly, there was no internet. There is just too much information out there now.
However, I do take your point about the effect of 1975. But it also started a chain of events that started with people like Ray Franz, Watters, JWD/JWN, that will prevent such an occurrence from happening again.
In any case, my vote for biggest JW rebel is still Ray Franz.
 
tiffy0212
tiffy0212 7 years ago

my son. when they come to his door his runs out and tells them what a terrible childhood he had, they are so stupid they just keep coming back. I believe he must have told them that his father is a witless.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago


However, I do take your point about the effect of 1975. But it also started a chain of events that started with people like Ray Franz, Watters, JWD/JWN, that will prevent such an occurrence from happening again.
Again if 1975 had not happened then perhaps there would have been no apostate "purges" in the late 1970s and early 1980s and some of the reforms suggested by Ray Franz, Dunlap and other moderates may have been officially adopted, with the help of liberal fence-sitters such as Swingle and Sydlik. As it was the fallout from 1975 meant a retrenchment and hardliners such as Fred Franz, Schroeder and Jaracz gained the upper hand, while the chronology, disfellowshipping and the hierarchical structure were all reasserted.
Whether a liberal path advocated by Ray Franz in the 1970s would have meant a healthier organization in the long run with bigger increases now is very much debatable. I reckon much that is unique about Jehovah's Witnesses would have been lost if they had chosen that path at that stage. Certainly on an individual level a less drachonican organization would have been a benefit, but in terms of growth I don't think it would have done them much good.
So again I think 1975 saved the day for the Watchtower organization because not only did it produce a net increase in followers surrounding the expectation Armageddon would take place then, but it was also instrumental in the organizational decision not to liberalise the organization at a juncture when many in the leadership were pressing for such a move. If the organization had gone liberal it would be weaker today and probably smaller too.
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

I agree setting a date would be much harder these days, but not impossible. I don't see the current leadership doing it. Maybe down the line if something unexpected happens (like a World War or major societal turmoil) and someone else is at the helm.
The way things are going however they just seem to be winding down and becoming more liberal and mainstream. It would take something rather dramatic either from within the organization or in society in general to prompt a reversal of this trend.
By the way how do you quote on this new board?
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

Highlight the text you want to quote, then drop down the "STYLES" box. The "" box doesn't do the trick.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

Thats an interesting "what if" scenario you have provided, Slim. It certainly saved the day for the hard liners. And the increase was substantial in the run up. I haven't thought about the increases in the 80's and early 90's being associated with that.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

alltimejeff

I don't think Freddie is a popular choice so I'm withdrawing him and vote for Ray Franz instead
No need to withdraw. He did have a rebellious streak in him. Of course, Freddie is as popular as the ebola virus to ex JW's, and probably hastened their demise with his ridiculous promotion of 1975. To that I say, "Cheers!"
alright.
I'm not seeing Freddie Franz as such a hardliner but as someone overcome by other hardliners on the governing body. Jaracz for example.
Remember, Fred would have been 82 when his 1975 prophecy failed. Devastated and old I don't see that he'd have had much fight left in him. I'm agreeing with those who feel that the governing body members were just as much a victim of themselves as we were.
Here is an interestiong quote from wiki
In his study of the religion, James Penton has noted that members of the Governing Body are old men (some aged in their 80s and 90s) who have had little experience outside the Witness community in years, that few have much formal education or business experience and that they have insulated themselves from intellectual stimuli for so long "they often have rather naive and jaundiced views of the rest of the world". [ 57 ] Penton has noted an increasing level of conservatism and sturdy resistance to change to Watch Tower policies and doctrines since Raymond Franz's expulsion in 1980, with an increasing tendency to isolate dissidents within the organisation by means of disfellowshipping. [ 58 ]
Also Freddie seemed to be preparing Ray for leadership. If they had followed a more liberal path it may have meant that Ray would have taken the helm and then it is highly likely that we would still have seen the growth but along more liberal lines.
 
recovering
recovering 7 years ago

Ray Franz by far. I had my doubts for quite a while, and had left the organazation for many years before I read his book. He enlightened me to what was really going on. Before me reading his book, I had thought it was a localized phenomina (congragation level) not a systemic hypocracy.
 
tenyearsafter
tenyearsafter 7 years ago

I would agree that Carl Olaf Jonsson, James Penton and Randy Watters should be on the list...I think what sets Ray Franz apart from the rest is the position of "inside" knowledge and responsibility he held and his courage to take a stand against it. The rest of the gentleman were very courageous (read that as "rebellious" in JW-speak) and have made their mark as WT rebels.
 
SPAZnik
SPAZnik 7 years ago

Based on numbers helped, years of untold effort, and virtually thankless work, I think SIMON ET AL deserve honourable mention too. At least in my books.
 

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Topic Summary
who was raised a jw and went on to lead life in stark contrast to their upbringing?.
i have often thought the award should go to dwight eisenhower.
from a religion that railed against politics and warfare he first invaded western europe and then went on to become president of the united states.



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Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek 10 years ago 63 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Fatfreek
Fatfreek 10 years ago

…according to 30% of the following definitions. That leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
So -- are they a cult? Ask any of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the answer is NO! Ask any ex-JW’s and most folks from some other branch of Christianity and their answer is YES! Which is it?
To be honest, there are many definitions of that word. The next time someone asks me the question, “Are Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult?”, I will answer, “Yes, by most definitions they are”.


Ten Definitions of Cult

JWs Fit
 
adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices

Yes
 
fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"

Yes
 
a system of religious beliefs and rituals; "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Yes
 
In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

Yes
 
In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine. ...By extension, "cult" has come to connote the total cultural aspects of a religion, as they are distinguished from others through change and individualization.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_(religion)

Yes
 
A religious group that follows a particular theological system. In the context of Christianity, and in particular, CARM, it is a group that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable. A few examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, The Way International, and the Moonies. (See also Cults) www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_c-d.htm

Yes
 
(cult) (kult) a system of treating disease based on some special and unscientific theory of disease causation. www.merckmedicus.com/pp/us/hcp/thcp_dorlands_content.jsp

No
 
Veneration ( or honoring ) of a saint expressed in public acts, local or universal, and formally approved by the Pope. www.ichrusa.com/saintsalive/glossary.htm

No
 
A religious group which denies the essential doctrines of Christianity. The term is usually reserved for groups founded after 1750. www.dtl.org/trinity/misc/glossary.htm

No[1]
 
A following of people. www.britishcouncil.org/ukinfocus-music-glossary.htm

Yes
 

[1] To be fair, many religious groups have their own “essential doctrines”. This, therefore, could be highly subjective.
 
james_woods
james_woods 10 years ago

I have a theory about the minority of real, bonafide, ex-JWs here who are truly out but will argue with you all day long that "they are not a cult". Usually, they try to use "semantic arguments" to avoid the label.
I think this is part of the healing process. I think that for a long time, we feel shame for ever having been in this religion and some of us don't want new friends to actually know where we came from, as it might make us look "weird" or something. It would follow that some do not like their ex-religion referred to as a cult (even if they know in their hearts that it was) as this is a bad reference to them by extension.
I have a friend that I have known for at least 10 years. He quit the Scientology way back about the time I quit the witnesses. He is very secretive about ever having been a member - I think he only told me recently because I am pretty open about my story quitting the Watchtower. He is one who sort of held on to some of the belief structure, but had to leave because of the general wacko factors. How this works, I don't know - but he also gets very upset if you call the Scientologists a cult!
And, of course, if it is not, and if JWdom are not, then I would be hard pressed to tell you what is.
James
 
Mistah MOJO
Mistah MOJO 10 years ago

I have two--yes two--dictionaries and each one defines "cult" as a synonym for religion. Religion is cult, cult is religion. However, I suspect both of these dictionaries are out of date. The word "cult" began to transmogrify sometime in the latter half of the twentieth century, as far as I can tell. The word was picked up, emptied of its historical denotation, and given a new denotation by zealous evangelicals and fundamentalists who were determined to extend their "us versus them" mentality into the cult-ure at large. So, "cult" has now become a word for "bad religion." As if there is a religion whose effects have not been primarily deleterious. MM
 
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 10 years ago

I would say it is a cult but not according to what most people visualize in their mind when they think of the word "cult", or at least what I imagined when I would hear the word cult. I used to think of the Jim Jones tragedy and the Davidians and smaller groups of people and not organizations that looked like a mainstream religion from the outside. LRG
 
Fatfreek
Fatfreek 10 years ago

Mojo, I love your comments. I thought at first you used some home brewed word there, transmogrify, but learned differently as I looked it up. Denotation was another.
As if there is a religion whose effects have not been primarily deleterious.
Your thoughts seem to be right on the nose.
Fats
 
garybuss
garybuss 10 years ago

In my own mind it doesn't matter if they are labeled a cult or a religion or a publishing business or a cultural society. I like what Jim Penton wrote, write the facts and let the facts stand or fall on their own merit.
I can only write from my own personal experiences and from the volumes of documentation supplied by the Watch Tower Society and the Jehovah's Witness people.
When I was a Witness, I didn't know I was living in a problem. I thought "THEY" were the problem.
I was raised as a Witness kid by a rigid Witness zealot father and a neurotic mother marked by chronic anxiety and fits of rage. All of the Witness people I was around almost 7 days a week were omnipotent, egocentric, narcissistic, grandiose, and condescending. All were delusional and none were what I'd call pragmatic.
The Witness people I knew were not very kind to children. Some were abusive to children with group approval. In fact, child abuse was a requirement. When they built a new Hall in the 50's they built a "crying room" with soundproof walls and a picture window and sound from the amplified speaker piped right into the ceiling.
I never saw a Kingdom Hall with a laughing room.


 
moshe
moshe 10 years ago

It's just like how I feel about President Bush. His supporters can see no wrong. My arguement is, so then we will let history judge him- History will decide, if he was a great President or one of the worst. The same thing would work for JW's , if they just looked at 125+ years of recorded history about the WT Society- AND that is why the Org goes to such pains to make the mind of a JW work like a child's magic slate- every few years they pull up the celluloid and erase the JW brain. Shoot, most will refuse to discuss any aspect of their feelings about 1975. I always ask a JW if they are happy- when they say yes, I tell them "you need to stop lying, Jehovah knows the truth"
 shalom,
 Moshe
 
unclebruce
unclebruce 10 years ago

I defy anyone to read Steve Hassans "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and come away saying the JW's are not a cult.
Is anyone free to leave without serious personal repercussions? Some JW's are even quite proud to refer to it as a cult.
unclebruce, 'incultcated' at the Kigdom Hall.
:::
Garybus said: "In my own mind it doesn't matter if they are labeled a cult or a religion or a publishing business or a cultural society."
beautifully said.
 
james_woods
james_woods 10 years ago

I am 100% with UncleBruce -- they are one, and in the worst of the "mind and behavioral control" context.
Mr MOJO is also correct according to what I can find in most dictionaries - "cult" is usually defined as a religious subset of belief.
So they are one semantically, too.
James
 
Dansk
Dansk 10 years ago

One of the definitions in my dictionary - Reader's Digest Wordpower Dictionary - defines cult as: "a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members."
Says it all for me!
if they just looked at 125+ years of recorded history about the WT Society
Heck, how've they got away with it for so long!
Ian
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 10 years ago

Are JWs a cult? I think it just depends upon how you define the word.
Even if they are not a cult by every sense of the term, they are certainly a 'High Controll Group'.
The way they controll the memberships information, demand large amounts of time from their lives, supress their own history, distort the truth in the publications, and how they feel that their leadership alone are the chosen ones are all things many would associate with cults. The fact that JWs are less aggressive in these areas than other controll groups only sets them apart with the degree at which they do these things, but it dosn't change that they do them none the less.
 
Johnny
Johnny 10 years ago

...and the Pope is not Catholic.
 
heathen
heathen 10 years ago

A religious group which denies the essential doctrines of Christianity. The term is usually reserved for groups founded after 1750.
I'd have to say yes to that one . The WTBTS rejects the creeds that the mainstream religionists adhere to . Teachings such as trinity and a literal hellfire were some of those beliefs the WTBTS refutes .
 
headmath
headmath 10 years ago

Gary buss
Sounds like my story. I thought the world around me was EVIL and I therefore elevated myself above them. What else could you do - die with them? There is a reward system in place. A JW must publicly SHUN the world in order to be accepted by their fellow JW. This is simply a " birds of a feather flock together" phenomina. It was started by Russell,.it will be destroyed by apostates
 
mama1119
mama1119 10 years ago

I think cult is putting it nicely
 
DubBeachBabe
DubBeachBabe 10 years ago

I agree with Drew that the JW organisation is more of a high control group than a true cult in its 21st century definition.
The term certainly is open to many interpretations. Christianity began as a cult by most definitions, if you think about the context of its origins. But I think one of the defining features of a truly scary cult is that a high-powered all-controlling personality heads it up (like Moonies, The Way International).
In that sense, JWs don't belong to a cult. (Or maybe I'm one of those exJWs in denial!)
What got to me the absolute most, when I was inside of it, was the presumptiousness of trying to control everyday things like what movies people watch, for heaven's sake, and what facial hair is permissible. How long a hem on a dress should be. Whether to do yoga (answer: never). Who may stay over at your house.
Anecdote: the only time I was ever personally visited by a pair of elders to discuss my 'conduct' was when a bunch of guys, brothers in good standing, stayed over in the living room of the house I was sharing with two other girls, all three of us in excellent standing, after a chaste dinner party! I shudder now when I think of that visit . My spare room is open to any friends, any time!
If you buy into that stuff then it's easy to unquestioningly not get a higher education, work part-time for the rest of your life, grow old without financial provisions, die on an operating table...
But then, there really are people who need and want that degree of 'guidance'. I'm just not one of them. My mantra is Don't tell me what to do! If I don't make my own decision then it's not my decision. And then it's not my life.
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago

Cult:...A person or group that has a following of a person, place, or thing........
 Star Trek has a following.......Star Wars has a folloing.......Matel has a following......Superman has a following....Religions have a following, ects, so forth and so on.
 These things are called cult(s). Cults are a wide subjects. So to break down the followings in the theological issues to orthodox, a cult is a following of those who lead off the christian dostrine in creating their own private  interpretation of the Bible. "2 Peter 1:20.21," ...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
 Russell did it; Smith did it, Arius did it.....
 
XJW4EVR
XJW4EVR 10 years ago

A religious group which denies the essential doctrines of Christianity. The term is usually reserved for groups founded after 1750.
You said, "No" to this statement, and the stated:
To be fair, many religious groups have their own “essential doctrines”. This, therefore, could be highly subjective.
To be fair, the JWs deny nearly every basic tenent of Catholic, Orthodox & Protestant theology.
The JWs deny the Trinity, the Diety of Jesus Christ, the Diety & Personhood of the Holy Spirit, and the bodily resurrection of Jesus. These doctrines are unamimous in their acceptance by all of the branches of Christianity. Therefore, I would disagree with you on both statements.
 
Rocky_Girl
Rocky_Girl 5 years ago

I like this thread about the definition of the word cult and the common perception of the word "cult"
 
Concerned JW
Concerned JW 5 years ago

Yes it is an interesting thread showing the word "cult" is a transmogrified word and so is now used to indicate a "bad Religion" which is very subjective and open to people then directing it at a religion they personally dislike. Steve Hassan is a Jew and clearly does not define all religions by his definition of "Cult"
Originally the word "cult" specifically related to religions that had ritualistc practises but in recent years the ways to define it are wide-ranging, many and varied and also extremely subjective. The usage of "Cult" on this site seems to be directed at Jehovah's Witnesses specifically but also most religions seem to be also defined as cults on here because of their religious nature and recognition of God as a higher being.
 

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Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek 10 years ago 63 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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unshackled
unshackled 5 years ago

Call it whatever you want, fact is the JWs are a mind controlled group. Just like the Mormons and to a higher degree Scientologists.
 
undercover
undercover 5 years ago

Talk about a blast from the past... but still a good thread
JWs are a cult but outside of talking with ex-JWs, I rarely use the word to describe them. In my circle of acquaintances, both JW and non, when the word "cult" is used, most people think of Jim Jones and the People's Temple or David Koresh and the Branch Davidians or some other suicide cult. Mormons, JWs and even Scientologists don't readily come to mind.
So to use the word around these people only confuses them and actually makes them defend groups like the JWs and Mormons as "not like the People's Temple or Branch Davidians". You end up trying to educate the ignorant on the definition of the word instead of discussing the merits of the actual group.
 
Twitch
Twitch 5 years ago

When you're programmed to think and act in an "acceptable" way to the group with the threat of judgement, expulsion and shunning if conformity is not maintained, what would you call it?
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 5 years ago

Some cults are harmless. Others are very dangerous, even lethal.

Here is one example of how the Watchtower organization has been directly responsible for the deaths of innocent children.

They were honest enough to brag about it on the cover of an Awake magazine. The kids in that photo are DEAD because of the medical quackery of the Watchtower.



 
Rocky_Girl
Rocky_Girl 5 years ago

Steve Hassan is a Jew and clearly does not define all religions by his definition of "Cult"

What does being Jewish have to do with the way a person defines the word cult?
By the definition provided above, some Jewish groups would be considered cults while quite a few Christian groups and most eastern religions would not be considered cults.
I don't understand your statement here.
 
undercover
undercover 5 years ago

Here is one example of how the Watchtower organization has been directly responsible for the deaths of innocent children.
Good call.
A lot of people look at JWs and even if they think they're 'cultish', they may reason that they're benign. LWT has just shown that the WT cult is not always so benign. It may not happen to most JWs, but the possibility exists that you may be asked to face death to prove your loyalty.
What's the difference in drinking laced Kool-Aid or refusing a medical procedure that can save your live? Dead is dead.
What's the difference in offering your child up as a burnt offering to Ba'al or allowing him/her to die when a blood transfusion could save them? Dead is dead.
And again, as LWT said, the WTS actually brags about the child sacrifices in their midst and about the suicides of their members. Does anyone really praise the People's Temple people for holding steadfast and drinking the Kool-Aid? Why should anyone praise JWs when they choose death to prove their loyalty?
 
Twitch
Twitch 5 years ago

What does being Jewish have to do with the way a person defines the word cult?
Nice catch,..
 
Found Sheep
Found Sheep 5 years ago

Yes they are!
I think this forum proves it. Look how hard it is to get out and the stories of all lives? If it's NOT then nothing is?
FS
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 5 years ago

Concerned JW: In your opinion, why does the WT forbid its members from having close association with former members?
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 5 years ago

I know in my bones, CUILT is the answer. Not cult, but CULT. I wish an academic would term a less perjorative word, though. Screaming cult is akin to mud slinging. Objective definitions go on for too long for quick use.
I thought they were a cult when I first came here. Their doctrines bothered me. Now, after several months, I see the CULT process is the most salient feature.
 
Haulin Oats
Haulin Oats 5 years ago

I seem to recall the WT years back about whether or not witnesses are a cult. There was some dark, demonic figure on an article page along with piss-poor definitions of a cult. Then of course, flash-forward to pages of happy, cheery witlesses going door to door. The reader was then left to decide after reading that they clearly weren't a cult.
You won't find a single corporation, business, company who would purposely put themselves in a negative light by defining themselves as a cult, pyramid scheme, etc. Thats like Ford admitting the Pinto was a shit car (which it was). The sales brochure just happened to gloss-over the poor engineering design of the fuel tank placement and instead laid a nice fresh red herring down instead to draw the readers attention to its "compact, efficient" use of storage and "economy" gas mileage.
Therefore, you need third-party groups to offer an unbiased opine about car X, brand Y, or religion Z. Which is why we have things like Consumer reports, Amazon book reviews, etc.
Any religion/company/whatever that hands out a biased, one-sided report about the definition of their existence and then expects the public to adhere to that definition....come on.
 
discreetslave
discreetslave 5 years ago

ConcernedJW you mean to tell me JW's don't have ritualistic practices.
Field service reports, studying publications, mentioning the org. or faithful slave in prayer. The mad dash before the Co, knowing there will be a release at the convention, the memorial is creepy & devoid of feeling. Can you preach door to door using the Bible alone?
Today I went to visit my old business territory. I told them I was no longer a JW & why. One of the customers said they sound like a cult. She was 22 years old, the first time she'd heard any details about Jw's and she could plainly see they are a cult.
I went to speak to my baptist neighbor asked her to pray with me. She said "they are a cult dear, that's why you couldn't sense Holy Spirit there."
Twice today others could plainly see what we were to blind to.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 5 years ago

My wife and I were discussing the "public talk" this Sunday, which by any standards was a disaster. The "brother" delivering this fine information came off as a smug, ignorant asshole, and indeed HE IS.
So one of my wife's comments to me was about part of the talk where he 'encouraged' members of the congregation to basically 'rat each other out' to the elders if they thought something was wrong. Her words were," It's bad enough people think we're a cult, and then he goes saying something like that."
My reply was to the effect that, although not appropriate for a PT, what he said was basically true - THIS IS WHAT IS DONE IN OUR SO-CALLED "Christian congregation."
This is going to be one long, strange trip....
 
Concerned JW
Concerned JW 5 years ago

Rocky girl last time I look jews were a religion! My point simply was that Steve Hassan clearly doesn't consider jews a cult therefore he obviously doesn't consider all religions cults and so has a defining line of what religions he considered cults or not. But this is beside the point that "Cult" when applied to religions is usually used from a personal dislike of a particular religion or people that have a vested interest in playing down other religions against their own religion (this point to discreetslave that thinks a Baptist neighbour is an unbiased authority on whether Jehovah's witnesses are a cult or not)
Since "Cult" is mainly used as a derogative/perjorative term it is as Band on the Run points useless to be used in any objective sense. It is a term used for mud slinging and name calling. I think it's usage shows a lack of objectivity in those using it in a perjorative sense.
Discreetslave I lock my door and goto work everyday are these ritualistic practises? I think maybe you should check a dictionary definition on ritualistic religious practises. Practical adminitrative tools are not ritualistic practises simply by virtue of being done repetitively.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 5 years ago

Concerned JW: Hassan believes that many cults are harmless. Have you read his book?
 
Concerned JW
Concerned JW 5 years ago

I'm not sure what that has to do with my point leagingwt? Are you saying Steve Hassan personally thinks all religions are cults but divides them into harmful and harmless? Steve Hassan obviously has put a lot into this subject but his books are only indicative of his opinion on what being a cult means and I think he doesn't even mention witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses are read into his books by those that have a personal interest in classing them as a cult.
 
Mad Sweeney
Mad Sweeney 5 years ago

Edited. sorry. circle-talkers who avoid questions annoy me.
 
Mad Sweeney
Mad Sweeney 5 years ago

Question one: Why does the Watchtower forbid its members from having close association with former members?
Question two: Have you read either of Hassan's books? (this is a ONE WORD ANSWER)
Quit avoiding those questions Concerned JW.
Now about the word cult. It seems like many here are confusing the sociological definition of the word with the colloquial use of the word with Hassan's use of the word. Sociologists and other social scientists use the term cult to basically mean a religion. We who post here, your Baptist neighbor, and most of the rest of North America use the term to mean an organization that exerts control over the behaviors, thoughts, and emotions of its members and recruits as well as limiting and controlling the information their members are allowed access to. Steve Hassan, being a professional who KNOWS that the term refers basically to any religion, uses the phrase "dangerous cult" to describe organizations that exert control over behavior, information, thought, and emotions (BITE) and to differentiate them from plain old cults/religions.
So in short, yes, normal people like you and I tend to use the word "cult" as a perjorative word. That then raises the questions: Is the Watchtower organization a "dangerous cult" based on Steve Hassan's definition from Combatting Cult Mind Control? Has the Watchtower organization earned the colloquial perjorative "cult" based on the way they control their members?
It has been demonstrated that the answer to both those questions is yes. We could re-hash it but google is your friend.
 
InterestedOne
InterestedOne 5 years ago

Concerned JW, it was a simple yes or no question. Very simple. Have you read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan?
 
Concerned JW
Concerned JW 5 years ago

Is this where I am supposed to fall into the trap of answering a question that by answering it would mean I accept that Steve Hassan's book which doesn't mention Witnesses applies to them in anyway? It is a book about "Cults" not established Religions! First you have to establish Jehovah's witnesses are a cult!
I also think it has been quite adequately shown that the usage of "Cult" is too perjorative a term to be used without bias. Especially as Witnesses are an established and recognised religion.
I'm also fairly certain Steve Hassan didn't mean for his book to become a "How to identify (read your religion into) a cult" book. But to be used with already well established "Cults".
 

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Topic Summary
according to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?



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Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek 10 years ago 63 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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NewChapter
NewChapter 5 years ago

Actually "cult" with all it's perjorative connotations fits Watchtower nicely.
Why can't you speak to DF'd and DA'd ones?????
I will enjoy your answer since you will be describing us.
NC
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

They fit the definition of high control group better.
Whatever definition you chose, it means the same thing.
 
InterestedOne
InterestedOne 5 years ago

Concerned JW wrote:
Is this where I am supposed to fall into the trap of answering a question that by answering it would mean I accept that Steve Hassan's book which doesn't mention Witnesses applies to them in anyway?
There is no trap. Have you read it? Yes or no?
If someone asked me whether or not I have read a book, I would have no problem answering. Have I read the book? Yes. See, it's that easy. Now, anyone interacting with me about this topic knows I have read the same information, and we can have a dialogue about it. That's why people having a discussion ask each other what they have read. If you have not read it, that's fine, and those interacting with you will not assume you know the same information. It means they might have to fill you in on some things if you haven't read it. It is a simple yes/no question to facilitate communication. Can you please answer yes or no?
 
Concerned JW
Concerned JW 5 years ago

You have yet to establish why reading the book is relevent to this discussion? Like I said earlier I am pretty sure Steve Hassan did not mean for it to be used as a "How to spot a Cult" book or a "How to read your religion into a Cult" book. but to be used with already established Cults. I will discuss Steve Hassan's book when you establish that witnesses are a Cult but you can't because they are in fact an established Religion.
Please answer why you asked me if I read it? and why would you think I need to read it?
 
sherah
sherah 5 years ago

Concerned JW said - I am pretty sure Steve Hassan did not mean for it to be used as a "How to spot a Cult" book
Yeah, he did. But that's based on my reading of the book.
Is you opinion of the book based what you have from reading it?
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 5 years ago

Concerned JW: If you're really 'concerned', I would encourage you to read Hassan's book. I'm going to leave the conversation, now. Welcome to the forum. Please stick around for a while. We are a diverse bunch.
 
InterestedOne
InterestedOne 5 years ago

Concerned JW wrote:
Please answer why you asked me if I read it? and why would you think I need to read it?
I am baffled by the fact that you are hesitating to answer a simple yes/no question about whether or not you have read a book. It's not hard to type "yes" or "no." Still, I asked if you read it because I was wondering if we are both aware of the same information that has been published by a cult expert. The book is relevant to the discussion because information from a cult expert helps to shed light on the questions people have and the claims they make about the relationship of the word "cult," if any, to the JW organization. From your second question, I gather that you have not read it. As for answering your second question, I'm not going to try to persuade you to read it. I merely wanted to know if you were aware of its contents. I see that the answer is no, and that's all I was curious about.
 
InterestedOne
InterestedOne 5 years ago

Concerned JW wrote:
I am pretty sure Steve Hassan did not mean for it to be used as a "How to spot a Cult" book
To help clear up any misunderstanding you might have about his intentions, here is an excerpt:

How does one learn how to discern whether or not a group is a destructive cult? What are the crucial elements that separate benign organizations from dangerous ones? In this chapter I attempt to point out in greater detail the general characteristics of destructive cults so that you can protect yourself from their influence. In doing so, I try to answer some of the more frequently asked questions about cults. Last, I include a list of questions which anyone can use to begin evaluating a group. - from Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan, pp 95-96.
The above excerpt demonstrates that part of his intention was in fact "how to spot a cult," as you put it, although there is more to his intention than that. Spotting a cult is only part of what the book is about. He also discusses ways of helping people who are in cults.
I personally found the book to be an excellent read. If you have time, I recommend it.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 5 years ago

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
Cult or not they are NOT the one true religion.
I view them as an antichrist pyramid big business posing as a religion to get power and money from their victims. They have invented a brand name god.
Doctrines have to be 'NEW IMPROVED' versions. They are constantly upgrading their produce with 'new light' (TM).
It's a sales scam!
Terms and conditions apply and are subject to 'overlapping' (TM).
 
Mad Sweeney
Mad Sweeney 5 years ago

Is this where I am supposed to fall into the trap of answering a question that by answering it would mean I accept that Steve Hassan's book which doesn't mention Witnesses applies to them in anyway?
No, this is where you're supposed to say "Yes" or "No."
It is a book about "Cults" not established Religions! First you have to establish Jehovah's witnesses are a cult!
Established religions ARE cults. It is what the word means. We don't "have to establish" that at all. The question is whether they are a "dangerous cult" or a garden-variety cult. But if we don't know whether you've read Hassan's book or not, it is difficult to know how informed/ignorant you are on the topic (though you've given us plenty of clues about that, I'll grant you).
I also think it has been quite adequately shown that the usage of "Cult" is too perjorative a term to be used without bias. Especially as Witnesses are an established and recognised religion.
So "cult" is used as a perjorative and the JWs are established and recognized. So what? Is there a point in there somewhere?
I'm also fairly certain Steve Hassan didn't mean for his book to become a "How to identify (read your religion into) a cult" book. But to be used with already well established "Cults".
Well we still don't know if you've read it or not so it is unclear whether you have a reading comprehension problem or whether you just blow smoke out your orifices because you can. Steve Hassan DID mean for his book to become a "How to identify a cult" book. That's established by its content, part of which is quoted above by another poster.
 
Think About It
Think About It 5 years ago

JW's not a CULT?
What other religion could you be DF'd for apostacy (with shunning and losing family) for not believing the WTS 'generation' doctrine and it's changed 3 times since 1995?

Think About It
 
Joepublisher1
Joepublisher1 5 years ago

I used to have an elder often tell me, "Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult - they aren't led by man." He seemed to use any opportunity to repeat that phrase. Now that I look back on it, I wonder why he was so sensitive about this? My own conclusion is that JW's are definitely a cult. There's no doubt that JW's elevate the Governing Body to a lofty position - one that demands that JWs follow their lead. What clearer definition of cult do you want? JWs follow imperfect men and WTS history proves conclusively that they are NOT led by Holy Spirit. And, those imperfect men ensure that its followers are subjected to high control techniques, including shunning should a member decide to leave.
I suppose that elder used to repeat that phrase in hopes it would convince himself what became blantantly obvious over time! It's a shame the games JWs (many who are grown adults) have to play in order to justify their belief system.
 
bohm
bohm 5 years ago

anybody else just had a feeling of dejavu?
 
Joepublisher1
Joepublisher1 5 years ago

I think people like ConcernedJW (as well as many JWs) think of cults as only pertaining to the Jim-Jones-type. Like everything in life, there are varieties of most everyting. There are varieties of flowers, but they are all categorized as flowers.
What's interesting is that immitation [fake] flowers can contain many traits that could even fool someone into thinking it's a real flower. When ConcernedJW says JWs are an established religion, it reminds me of a fake flower. Sure, there are traits of that fake flower that make it appear to be authentic, but its not.
The WTS is NOT who they say they are. Upon close examination you realize it's a phony religion - of the cult-type! And, its own history and literature prove that it's a phony religion. They certainly are NOT led by God's Holy Spirit. The certainly have promoted and predicted false dates for the end of this world and thus the WTS proves themselves to NOT be an approved authentic prophet from God. So, according to its own claims, there are many traits that identify itself as "a fake" - they hypocritically joined the UN as an NGO but would disfellowship it's members if they joined the YMCA only to used its pools!
Joe Rutherford taught, Relgion is a snare and a racket. Boy, talk about throwing rocks when you live in a glass house! It kind of reminds you of how the WTS literature was inundated with critism of pedophilia handling in Christendom, all while the WTS was cognizant of a similar problem in their own house!
Thinking JWs eventually have to attempt to reconcile these problem. Fortunately, many have come to the accurate conclusion that their own religion is nothing more than a very elaborate scam! And, out of good conscience, they decide that they can no longer perpetuate this cult-like religion!
 
sherah
sherah 5 years ago

Bohm, I do.
We will know in due time.
 
Crisis of Conscience
Crisis of Conscience 5 years ago

DING! DING! After reading the definitions on page 1 as well as reading Combatting Cult Mind Control in full, the winner by unanimous decision..........JW's ARE A CULT!!
CoC
 
Concerned JW
Concerned JW 5 years ago

Since the consensus is religion means cult that is a big win or not really.
The next leap is saying "Never mind dangerous branch davidian type cults Steve hassan wasn't talking about them, he actually meant main stream established religions we have a personal gripe with and can read our target religion into his book with a little mental editing when it doesn't fit" not biased at all!
And of course France didn't fall flat on it's face recently on this very subject because they bought into this anti-hype over witnesses and lost.
Interesting old thread.
 
shamus100
shamus100 5 years ago

I'll tear anyone's face off that says they are a cult. I SAY HIGH CONTROL GROUP!!!
(it still doesn't matter.... ) :grinning:
 
yalbmert99
yalbmert99 5 years ago

There are many definitions of what is a cult. However, there is a clear definition of what is a cultic deviance :
"The cultic deviance is characterized by the implementation of various techniques of pressure having for goal or effect to create, maintain or exploit at a person's state of a psychological or physical subjection. "
 
discreetslave
discreetslave 5 years ago

I didn't want out of JW's because they were a cult. I never thought JW were a cult. Anyone who knew me as a JW will tell you I could run circles around most explaining WT doctrine. I only studied for 9 months and before I was baptized at 17 I could explain the antitypical day of atonement, the temple antitype, & Ezekials vision. I went to Bethel at 19 & was in a cong with two married couples from writing and associated with John Wischuk and Russell Kurzen. They all compared my knowledge of WT doctrine to Fred Franz. Which makes sense since he came up with most it. I have excellent literature recall.
When I became of the anointed (which none of the elders I told doubted one being 4th gen.) I reviewed every thing relating to the heavenly calling. This research opened up a floodgate of questions. I kept asking why and how did they get that? When I first learned this stuff I was simply accepting what they said. Now I wanted to know how they got their explanations. I realized this was as fictional as Alice in Wornderland or the Chronicles of Narnia. All the scriptures we use to point the finger at false religion fit JW. Jesus introduced a form of worship based on Spirit & Truth & genuine love of people. This is not the religion of JW's. JW's focus on the physical not the things unseen. Rev 7:9 says a great crowd no man was able to number why so much focus on figures. The count's were only mentioned in Acts twice. Later no mention of figures is found in the Christian scriptures.
All this lead me to look elsewhere for answers. I prayed to Jehovah if this is a sin I will confess & repent but I need to know more. If this is the truth nothing would change my determination to serve with his people. I looked up Ray Franz's book Crisis of Conscience. I had always heard of Ray spoken in a bad light. Reading his book one realizes how humble, faithful, & discreet he was. He never bad mouthed those who spoke so ill of him. The contrast was apparent and I realized this has the ring of truth. So I kept looking up more websites. The ring of truth kept ringing. And everything Watchtower sounded like feedback. I decided to leave JW's for these reasons and my emotional & mental health. The religions relentless pressure and lack of Holy Spirit was killing me from the inside.
After my decision to leave this religion did I join here & LeavingWT told me about Steve Hassans book. Reading Hassans descriptions of cults and their operations made me realize I was in a cult. His descriptions of cults and their tactics fit JW's.
Hassans book is not apostate literature to a JW. So why not read it? As a JW you could use it in your ministry to help others free themselves of cults. Since you are not convinced JW's are a cult.
 

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Topic Summary
according to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?



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Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek 10 years ago 63 Replies latest 3 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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leavingwt
leavingwt 5 years ago

I didn't want out of JW's because they were a cult.

Same, here. I left when I discovered that their theology was a steaming pile. Further, they lied about their history and shortcomings.

Only after I exited did I learn from Hassan why seven millions people believe things which aren't true.

Once you understand how the Thought Reform works, you understand why the Society can radically change their theology without upsetting 95% of their members. My former self included, most JW are robots, on autopilot, who obey the Faithful and Discreet Slave and never question anything.
 
Think About It
Think About It 5 years ago

When I became of the anointed......

It's clear your religious views have changed. What's your view of this JW 'anointing' experience now?

Think About It
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 years ago

The World English Dictionary defines cult as follows

1. aspecific system of religious worship, espwithreferenceto its ritesanddeity
2. asectdevotedtosuchasystem
3. a quasi-religiousorganizationusingdeviouspsychological techniques to gain and controladherents

Recognizing devious/disfunctional/dangerous cults of Christianity is extremely important for Christians since Jesus himself warns us to beware of false prophets and false teachers.


Dr. Arthur Deikman, a psychiatrist and cult-expert in northern California, has identified...four basic behaviors found in extreme form in [destructive] cults: compliance with the group, dependence on leadership, devaluing the outsider, and avoiding dissent.

Timothy Conway, provides a lengthy list of warning signs of dysfunctional cults to watch for. Some of these include:
a. Legalistic obsession with myriad rules.
b. Excessive demands on the time and energy of the group members.
c. Trapping or holding onto members. People should be able to leave the group at any time for any reason without fear of damnation, reprisal, scorn etc.
d. Theological thought control.
e. Cultivation of childish dependency upon authoritarian leaders who require absolute, exclusive devotion.
f. Heavily polarized “us-them,” adversarial thinking,...(“they” are “bad” and “we” are “good”).
g. Targeting or isolating of anyone inside or outside the group as a source of evil or contamination...
h. Delusions of grandeur by the leader or group.
i. Orwellian system of informers who convey information to leaders about persons behind their back.
j. Ganging up on individual members to criticize or humiliate or coerce them; “working on them” to violate their own sense of conscience or autonomy.
k. Brainwashing or mind-control techniques or high-pressure group dynamics coercing members to conform to a worldview, agenda, or code of conduct.
i. Frequent testing of members for loyalty, commitment, or obedience.
j. Preventing contact with outsiders, ex-members, and even certain fellow members of the dysfunctional cult.
k. Breaking up couples and families to gain power over individuals and prevent coalitions that could more effectively criticize unsound, corrupt leadership.
l. Blind obedience to harmful or unwise directives from on high.
m. Suppression of dissent, doubt, critical thinking, sincere questions, discussion or independent judgment.
n. Intellectual parochialism or isolation from other worldviews; censorship or control of what people read
o. Enforcement of conformity in apparel and external behavior.
Many of these warning signs apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.
Vander
 
Iown Mylife
Iown Mylife 3 years ago

Vander, looks to me like ALL those points apply to the WT.

OMG the whole shebang is a horribly ridiculous bunch of crap in a big slick theatrical production.
We were just talking today about people in that cult who think they can keep their kids out of school and homeschool them while they ride around "pioneering" all day. They have the kids doing correspondence school study in the back seat. These brilliant individuals then try to get JW's with established businesses to hire them after they have grown up with no education or marketable skills, no certification in any professional field.
OH how they looked down their noses at people who actually kept their kids on a regular school schedule and joined the PTA and went to the school on Thursday PTA nights, how spiritually weak those families were who were concerned and determined to get their kids educated. Why, those terrible weak spiritually deficient bad people might's as well just not even bother trying to be in our beautiful organization! They don't REAllY want to serve God like WE do. Let's ignore them at the meetings, give them dirty looks and then look away, shake our heads at them so they will feel bad - then when they approach us and ask if they've given offense in some way, we'll smile pityingly and condescendingly tell them Why NO, why on EARTH would you have an idea like that?
 

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Topic Summary
according to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?



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AndersonsInfo
Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!
by AndersonsInfo a month ago
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by oppostate a month ago
AndersonsInfo
Reveal article: 6 ways religious exemption laws are exploited - Excellent!
by AndersonsInfo 18 days ago



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How aliens are seizing control of Earth (Meol'gadik)
by Franz 10 years ago 34 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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Franz
Franz 10 years ago

If you sit back and analyze how things are run, one thing is evident: That power on earth is in the hands of a nefarious few and they are not human.
 Humans are controlled. Unless you are a believer and follower of the Most High with your eyes opened as to what's going on, then you are most likely being manipulated or controlled by them in one way or another. And this includes a majority of believers because they don't have their eyes opened. And even those who do, realize there are always the armies of the 4th dimension trying to control or manipulate them and so you always have to stay on guard.
 A controls B, B controls C, C controls D, D controls E, E controls F, F controls G, G controls H, H controls I, I controls J, J controls K, K controls L, L controls M, M controls N, N controls O, O controls P, P controls Q, Q controls R, R controls S, S controls T, T controls U, U controls V, V controls W, W controls X, X controls Y, Y controls Z, Z controls A. Everything runs in a circle.
 Every person born and every group we form whether it be a government, church, religion, military, association, organization, cult or secret society falls into the circle somewhere.
 Some people like to organize the control structure we are under in a pyramid. Of course it leaves out the individual aspect and each block of a pyramid is a organized group of some kind whether it be government, secret society or whatever. But from what I see and the way I look at it, a circle of madness is more like it.
 Perhaps that's the reason Lucifer is also known as "Lord of the Rings." It could go beyond his rulership of Saturn. You don't have to be too analytical to know that rings are circles in shape. And after seeing how every person, organization and group on earth seems to run into circles and into each other one way and out the other then Satan being Lord of the Circles makes even more sense.
 There is a very organized way that the wicked scoundrels (aliens and demons) of the 4th dimension track and control people on this earth. That is why they are coming out with "earth is an illusion" teachings in the New Age because we never give them a second thought, whereby they are watching us daily. We don't see them, we don't understand all the details of how they operate and most don't even care. Many aren't even aware they exist and have the mentality that if they do exist then "out of sight out of mind". And that is why our world is an illusion to the scoundrels and they are trying to tell us the same. While we are busy with our lives we never see the total dominance and control they have over our earth and mostly everyone in it. We don't see their illusion. We realize that spiritual warfare is an ongoing battle. We realize that evil exists and the ongoing war between good and evil, God and Satan, and those born on earth who are caught in the middle. But I don't think we realize how personal of a war it is.
 I learned about this last year but the Lord never had me speak about it or write about it in particular. Now it just feels like it's time to expose more of their wickedness and how they do it. I can't give a lot of details because I don't know them, but what I do know I will try to explain.
 It seems that many people who are born become a target for surveillance. It doesn't matter who they are or where they are born. If they are born from a particular bloodline or born with a particular purpose and calling on their life then it seems that the wicked know it and assign a surveillance team to them. While even many more are born without raising the scoundrels eyebrows. I don't know how they know who is born and where and who is either a great threat or a great ally to them, but they do.
 Many people are chip implanted in their sleep as children so they can be tracked. And most of them have absolutely no memory of it. In this way, no matter where they go they can be located. Their name is put on a list and assigned to a group of aliens who then keep them under surveillance.
 For the aliens, they can sit in their mother ships or even travel around in UFOs and go from person to person on their list to see what they are up to. From the air, perhaps hundreds or even thousands of miles up into our atmosphere they can target exactly where someone in particular is. Even if that person is sitting on a couch in their home the aliens can zero in on their exact location.
 This is how our government and militaries came up with satellite technology and even chip implantation. The ideas themselves were nothing new, the scoundrels have been doing it for centuries. But they were given to man so man could mimic or even duplicate the technology and operate it on earth. Lucifer knows he is going to be cast down to earth and unable to leave as forewarned in Revelation Chapter 12. So all the technology they have in the air they are duplicating on earth so he can control the people on earth, from earth, when he and his scoundrels are stuck here.
 They haven't completely merged technologies from the 4th to 3rd dimensions. I don't know if they can. Perhaps what will work in the air for aliens, won't work for humans on earth. For instance, some of it has to be duplicated and started all over again for them. That is what it seems like because we know chipping people is at its highest priority with our government. They are preloading chips into things and not telling anyone about it so people inadvertently get chipped and don't realize it, such as vaccines and flu shots, . These are tracking chips and not the chip forewarned of in Revelation Chapter 13. With these tracking chips our government can locate anyone wherever they are with their surveillance satellites operated from NORAD and other secret underground installations. And I doubt this is limited to America, this is probably going on in every country in the world.
 That is why there seems to be so much confusion in what we are hearing from those being abducted. Some people describe being abducted by aliens and chip implanted on a UFO. Others describe being taken to a military base or military hospital of some kind where they saw military people and were chip implanted by them. Both the aliens and our governments are involved with chip implantation of people for their own separate agendas to track and control humans on earth.
 Why do they want to track you? The aliens use it so they can manipulate people. Perhaps they send information to the demonic realm so they know exactly what particular demons to send to a person to harass and cause that person to sin. If a person is a threat to their agendas they will target them with thought manipulation tactics to distract them from keeping them from fulfilling their calling. This is where our government got "voice to skull technology." Or they can influence people through dreamscape manipulation, 'voices', or thought implants to steer them in different directions and rabbit trails such as deceptions, heresies and apostasies and away from being a serious threat to their agendas to where these people are working as unbeknownst allies for them instead of enemies.
 You can see the same technology the aliens use has made its way into our government and military in what is termed as black technology. A lot of what the aliens can do our government is now capable of doing. This is why there are so many joint human and alien underground bases around the world. This is where the aliens teach humans how to duplicate their technology and develop it for themselves. Why would they give them their technology? So the aliens can use it and operate it on earth for themselves when the time comes. Of course they don't tell the humans that part of it.
 Some people might think this is all fiction. But I can assure you it is reality.
 Let me further attempt to explain reality as I see it and have learned it:
 There's an invisible realm that controls everyone and everything in the physical realm.
 With the lure of advanced technology they have deceived the governments on earth to work with them and receive this technology for themselves. And as the Lord revealed to me a couple of years ago, people who become involved with the aliens will most assuredly get possessed and overtaken by them.
 There are more humans than aliens and demons combined and these wicked scoundrels want human bodies on earth to operate in this realm with, so they take over human bodies via soul scalping or possess them in any number of ways such as fetal abductions, soul scalping, cloning, mind fragmentation, and so on.
 The wicked entice people and governments to work with them such as making treaties with them. Former presidents Eisenhower and Roosevelt made treaties with the aliens which started the downward spiral of America and the beginning of alien control and domination here. I have talked about in previous articles how our former presidents made treaties with the aliens in exchange for advanced technology. In doing so, an entire shadow government (spearheaded by those such as Henry Kissinger) was put in place to conceal what was going on and deny the fact that aliens even existed.
 In fact the agency we know now as the National Security Agency was originally formed to debunk the existence of aliens and UFOs while at the same time our government was cooperating with them in exchange for technology!
 What did the aliens get out of the deal? They got the approval from our government to abduct American citizens for breeding experiments and to be eaten as food. This shadow or black government (the government that really has the power in D.C. and runs everything behind the scenes) was put in place to shield the public persona government from the knowledge of what was going on. With the election-prone revolving doors of our political leaders they would keep the real information from them and and work behind the scenes with the aliens hiding everything in what is termed as black budgets and black projects.
 I don't think I would be to far out on the limb to suggest that this shadow government has now merged with the public persona government. They seem to be one and the same now.
 Over the years the secret societies and Lucifer worshipping groups and organizations had successfully become filled and dominated with alien-hybrid-Illuminati children to where they now control every aspect of our government and military. And many of those who are not part of the Illuminati bloodline families such as those who work in these underground bases and installations in black projects for just a paycheck have been and are susceptible to being overtaken and possessed by the wicked.
 This includes those controlling and operating these black budgets and the programs funded by them. It also includes those in underground cloning facilities, joint human and alien military bases, NORAD and other nefarious installations that seek to control and track every aspect of humans with their satellite and chip implantation technologies (developed in the underground bases), HAARP and weather weapon technology to control the weather and induce catastrophes such as earthquakes, hurricanes, and famines to further their agendas on earth. Also those running the black weapons technology such as microwave weapons including ELF (extreme low frequency) weapons that can target individual(s) anywhere on the planet.
 And this goes beyond the government and military. The wicked have moved from one end of our society to the other overtaking and possessing religious leaders, leaders in the media, celebrities, musicians, artists, magicians, publishers, authors, teachers, scientists, doctors, those leading technological advancement and those who control and run our economies. Every area you can think of they dominate through the humans they possess.
 Manipulation and Possession
 The 4th dimension has humans everywhere that they possess or can manipulate through chip implants to completely control earth. And they are in the position to target and harass anyone who doesn't comply with their agendas or who fight against them and can resist being manipulated and/or controlled by them.
 America has become dominated and controlled by these 4th dimension scoundrels. And many other countries as well.
 Another area they dominate is religion. There isn't a religion in the world that hasn't escaped their dominance in it such as Wicca, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Talmudic Judaism, Pauline Christianity, literally all and every religion in the world practiced today.
 They use religions to further their agendas on earth.
 Satan knew that that Most High God planned to redeem mankind from Adam's sin by sending His own Son to earth to die on the cross for the redemption of sins.
 And it was during the earliest times and dawn of civilization that Satan would create false religions among the people to steer them away from worshipping the one true God and His redemption for mankind.
 The worship of Baal, Molech, and Mithra were all created and carried throughout the ages under various names and through various nations although they all referred to Lucifer himself. Many more were to spring up and the worship of idols and paganism was rampant.
 Lucifer has always wanted to be worshipped as God. It was the reason of his first rebellion when he coerced 1/3 of the angels to rebel with him against God. As a result he was cast out of heaven, lost his position as a Cherub and became known on earth as Satan, i.e. the adversary. He surrounded himself on earth with religions that all worshipped and praised his name unbeknownst (perhaps) to the deceived who were in them.
 His scoundrels in the 4th dimension created elaborate legends and myths around certain ones of themselves so the people on earth would worship them as Gods. Just as they work through the New Age does today with their Ascended Masters facade.
 The whole point is to keep people away from the truth and to keep them chasing after false idols, prophets, and religions so they aren't worshipping the One True God or accepting His Redemption through His Son, Yahushuah, Jesus Christ. Throughout the ages billions of people have been deceived and have fallen for Lucifer's traps and the lies he created.
 Today the wicked possess religious leaders because many of them have sworn oaths of loyalty to Lucifer. In the Southern Baptist denomination alone, 42,000 pastors and clergy are allegedly members of Freemasonry. In the first level of Freemasonry they swear allegiance to the "God of light." Lucifer, the former light bearer is this God of light they worship. Many of them are high ranking Masons, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Kenneth Copeland, many, many are wolves in sheep's clothing.
 The 4th Dimension has clobbered our earth and most of the people in it. This dimension, also known as the spiritual realm, is not God's but Satan's realm.
 Eventually the 4th dimension and 3rd dimension (our earth) will completely merge and those on the 4th will inhabit and control earth physically without the use of humans or having to work through human bodies to do so.
 When Satan comes as the Antichrist his scoundrels will come with him. When he walks on and reigns over the earth as a global world ruler his scoundrels will serve as his armies to enforce the edicts he hands down for those on the earth to obey.
 In Noah's day giants walked the earth. And in the last days under Satan's reign, giants will walk the earth once again.
 No longer will the scoundrels have to possess humans to operate on earth, instead they will openly eat them. From demons to greys, to 8 foot Annunaki, it's literally going to look like hell on earth.
 Stay out of UFOs. Don't run to see them, run away from them. UFOs are owned and operated by aliens and our militaries. Our militaries have had the technology for the past 60 years to build UFOs. And they do. And they use them for their own purposes. It's not "do UFOs exist" but more of "who's flying them" at any given time.
 During what the Bible describes as the Great Tribulation period our Earth will be full of hell for 42 months. And then Son of the Most High will ascend to earth at the Battle of Armageddon and destroy them all with just the words He speaks.
 Energy Vampires
 Besides manipulating the humans on earth through chip implants and possession aliens feed off of human energy also called loosh. To duplicate this on earth, various pagan practices include learning how to 'suck the energy out of people' have been developed.
 I can remember last year when the Lord revealed to me how Satan fed off the fear and suffering of others for more power. I didn't realize at the time that the aliens in his morbid kingdom did the same thing until I started learning about how they build nets on earth for loosh through humans.

 To obtain loosh emotions must be stimulated within people that can be harvested by them such as fear, terror, horror, suffering, abuse, and even death. On the flip side they can also feed off the deceptions they instigate. Such as worship in churches led by Lucifer's beast prophets and throughout false religions such as Islam, Mormonism, Catholicism, and others. As I explained before, their deceptions in religion run through each and every one of the religions on earth today. Pastors such as Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland have been caught on tape masking in tongues where they are calling on Satan to arrive at their service. They then transfer and channel the worship and praise being given to the Most High God from churchgoers to Lucifer. In this way, Lucifer is being worshipped in many churches today and receiving their praises unbeknownst to those in attendance.
 The more loosh, the more power. In this way aliens and especially Lucifer can manifest more power on the earth.
 The aliens disguise themselves as peacemakers and guardians of the earth when all the while they instigate wars, famines, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, and general mayhem to cause fear, terror, suffering, and death so they can feed off the energy those things create. Not to mention they stock their UFO refrigerators with human bodies to literal eat them. They get both the emotional energy and the flesh of the human to feed off .
 Right now these things take place behind the scenes. Where the average person has no idea of what is going on and doesn't see it happening with their own eyes. But the day will come when the veil is lifted between our dimensions and we will see them and what they do.
 Fear Not! We Are Children Of The King!
 I give you this information not to put you in fear, but to open your eyes. Everything is not as it seems and eventually it will be facing us on earth for direct battle. Our victory is in the Lord. He will squash Lucifer's second rebellion and end his global reign on earth. Lucifer's facade of playing God on earth will be over and all those who followed him will be destroyed.
 A believer and follower in the Lord's never dies. Our bodies die, but our soul goes to be with the Lord in heaven. What they consider death on earth is for a follower of the Lord's a promotion.
 We get promoted to heaven!
 Fear not. Fear nothing but God Himself. We have nothing to fear with Satan or his scoundrels.
 Perfect love casts out fear.
 If you feel you have been a target all of your life then you probably have been.
 Even moreso now, many people are feeling and suffering from attacks from the 4th dimension realm and even our own military's high tech weapons as they sleep at night. Attacks of what is described as sleep paralysis are on the rise, also sudden joltings, or people seeing aliens or demons in their bedrooms.
 As the veil begins to lift between the 3rd and 4th dimensions those on earth will be able to see aliens and demons with their physical eyes. And people are starting to see them more frequently than ever before.
 We have power in the name of Jesus/Yahushuah over Satan and all his armies of the demonic and alien realm. If you are being bothered by them, rebuke them in the Name of Yahushuah and command them to leave you in His name. If they persist, rebuke them in the Name of Yahushuah and command them to go to the abyss in the Name of Yahushuah. Ask the Lord to send His angels and bind them and cast them into the abyss in Yahushuah's name.
 As believers and followers of the Most High God we don't have to take Satan's crap, plain and simple. Take action against him and the 4th dimension spiritual realm and they will learn to fear you because of HIM and they will learn to leave you alone. Every time you have an encounter with them take action against them in His Name.
 Most believers get beat up, stay beat up, and suffer needlessly because they won't take action in the Name of Yahushuah.
 Learn to take action and you will become a Warrior that can defeat that entire realm and cast many of their Generals and soldiers to the abyss to be imprisoned!
 Don't fear them!
 Fight against them in His Name!
 If you are sitting on the fence get off it. Make a stand today whom you will serve. Remember the Lord says He will spit the lukewarm out of His mouth!
 Our lives on earth are going to be changing. Things are not returning to 'normal' but to more death, destruction, and the 4th dimension becoming more and more dominant as they prepare to take over earth with Lucifer ruling over it.
 In all things seek the Lord, Yehovah the Most High God and let Him teach you the truth in all things and lead you.
 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 10 years ago

Franz, you will be punished for you insolence and lack of obedience to the Meol'gadik Empire. As a show of my abilities, I will turn off your electricity!
-Elsewhere, of the Lizard People Class
 
trevor
trevor 10 years ago

Very deep Franz
Energy Vampires - Besides manipulating the humans on earth through chip implants and possession aliens feed off of human energy also called loosh. To duplicate this on earth, various pagan practices include learning how to 'suck the energy out of people' have been developed.

I think this explains why I have been feeling tired lately.
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 10 years ago

If they are sooo smart, why dont they just come down here and take what they want by force?
 
Gill
Gill 10 years ago

Franz - Have you also been drinking the very nice ruby red rich Port that my son was given for Christmas?????
It's strong stuff, isn't it!!!!!
I find I'm also having, 'very interesting ideas' after a couple of glasses of the stuff! It's very enlightening! I found myself musing on the possibilities that the Rothschilds really are alien reptilian beings!
I suggest you do the same as me. Go and lie down and sleep it off!
 
kid-A
kid-A 10 years ago

Franz, there have been an alarming increase in the number of 'alien toilet abductions' in my city recently. This poor fellow was almost captured by the Meol'gadiks but was able to cling on to the sink and toilet paper roll. I ask for your expert opinion, why have the Meol'gadik chosen this evil means of abduction, when us poor humans are at our most vulnerable moment? More importantly, how can we ensure that our toilets our free of alien intruders before sitting down?
-A concerned citizen of earth
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 10 years ago

Franz, there have been an alarming increase in the number of 'alien toilet abductions'
 Now thats funny, I dont care who you are.
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

are aliens controlling the dope you smoke also
 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago

LOL....I must say that you have, IMHO, gone waaaay over the top with this one!

Just where did you get the idea that they eat people and/or "loosh" them?

And did I read that you were saying..The lord told you things!

Come on now...I want your sources for EVERYTHING you claim!
 
Franz
Franz 10 years ago

I have been watching a picture develop. And it is something the Lord has been trying to show me over the past few years and each time I go through this cycle of learning in this particular area He reveals more and more of it to me.
 Throughout this time He has led me to various places to talk to and listen to various people and to read various things. And it is not until you least expect it that it finally dawns on you that you have developed a picture of what it is or was He was trying to show you. That with all the pieces the Lord had given, one here, and one there, you are finally able to see the whole picture coming together.
 How Lucifer operates on this earth is one of those pictures. How he manipulates and uses mankind are pieces to this picture or puzzle the Lord has been showing me.
 My learning has been a journey and I am sure it is not over yet but I have a clearer understanding of how things work and although I am no expert I will attempt to teach what I know. What I have learned has come directly from Him and it is from these experiences I have gone through and the pieces He has given me that I will attempt to paint a small picture for you from the larger one of how Lucifer operates through mankind by manipulating mankind.
 What I have learned is that for those who seek to climb the ladder and be loyal to the system of Satanism or Luciferianism and move up the ladder to higher ranks of wealth and power is that their ultimate success is based on how much loosh or energy they can create and obtain.
 What happens is that these Luciferians who give oaths to Satan become possessed with demonic entitie(s). These demons who possess humans, or even aliens for that matter, both groups, need loosh to receive power to manifest in the physical realm through that person. The more loosh, the more power they receive to operate. The humans themselves don't feed off loosh, the beings that possess them do. It is these beings who are rewarded to higher ranks in the demonic realm of Lucifer's kingdom. The humans who allow this possession are also rewarded in the same way.
 The flipside is these Luciferians have to keep loosh coming in at a steady and constant basis. That is why many of them create their own niche markets and go solo and surround themselves with the unsuspecting who unwittingly help them to succeed as supporters of their ministries. These Luciferians spend their time creating more and more loosh, to grow bigger and bigger and to become more famous or more known because bigger crowds means more loosh. They need to establish and maintain a constant source of loosh and this is why many of them will head into religion.
 Religion is a bigger and more advantageous market than politics or anything else because there is more room and opportunity for these people to create their own niche in religion than to obtain a political office. This is also why religious leaders and figures rank the highest in Lucifer's kingdom. Other than dictators themselves, the sheer amount of loosh they create and obtain through religion is the largest and easiest way for these Luciferians to build their nets. They also get the perks of self-sufficiency, and for some even wealth and fortune from their followers as they fleece, con, and spiritually destroy them.
 Think about the various people around the world who have sold out to Satan for wealth, fame, fortune, and power. The ones with big followings and the ones who have access to the largest amounts of people are the most successful. Or, the ones who can create the most terror and fear in people such as children or innocent victims of horrors, abuse, injury or death. They can climb the ladder legally or illegally, it doesn't matter to Lucifer. Loosh talks, the rest walks.
 There are several kinds of this loosh energy that they can develop to feed off of. It is almost like vampirism. Except instead of drinking blood to survive they somehow soak in and capture this energy to survive and it determines how successful they become and how far they can move up in rank, status, wealth, fame, fortune and power either in this life or the lie they believe about their next one. Many of them, like witches, are promised these things upon their death here on earth where they will be rewarded in Lucifer's "kingdom" when they are in the dead realm. Yes, they are that intellectually challenged to believe him.
 Creating Loosh
 Aliens or fallen angels refer to this energy as loosh and they operate in the same way as the Luciferians do. In fact it was learning about the aliens that I first learned about this loosh. I didn't realize humans were feeding off this same type of energy and when I finally did it made me realize how closely they all work together and how similar they all really are as Satan worshippers, literally. But for this article I am just going to focus on the Luciferians themselves.
 To obtain loosh people must be deceived, used, abused, manipulated, and even killed in order to become this energy source which is a food source for Luciferians who feed off of other peoples emotions. It can come from deception or terror and horror or any number of ways and I'm going to try and pinpoint these from what I have learned.
 Imagine a church full of people singing and worshipping the Lord, yet unbeknownst to them the pastor of the church is a Satanist. The pastor works the Luciferian system of being loyal to Lucifer and secretly worships Lucifer. This works the best in Pentecostal congregations because pastors can and do use tongue speaking to call on Satan's presence and Satan's power to perform miracles and no one else can understand what they are saying. The leader masks it in the form of prayer and the people are deceived by it. In this instance the leader or pastor receives great energy from the church members who are singing praises or worshipping the Lord because as the leader of the church he arrogantly accepts and receives that worship to himself and for Lucifer. He stands in front of them all and accepts their worship as being to him and Lucifer.
 It is in this way that many church members and those who follow religions are used as pawns to give Satan power. Are they victims or are they at fault themselves? They are at fault themselves. If they were truly seeking the Lord and being led by Him they wouldn't be deceived by Luciferians. By sitting in errors and deceptions they become open access to demonic entities themselves. The Lord would be able to open their eyes and pull them out of these deceptions but many refuse to seek the truth in all things and arrogantly refuse to believe or admit they are being deceived. Or they ignore His small voice for the louder one in their heads. It is in this way that they become pawns of the devil and open doorways for him to access and feed off of.
 Religion, and there are many of them, creates an atmosphere of loosh energy and if a particular one is headed by a Luciferian then that Satanist is credited and rewarded for creating and instigating that loosh. The one who creates and instigates loosh is the chief benefactor of it and the one credited and rewarded from Satan for obtaining it. At the same time, other Luciferians can be present and enjoy some of this loosh for themselves as well. Even the aliens can drop in and feed off it.
 Another way to create loosh is through rock, rap, country, or any kind of music and the musicians who create it are rewarded for it. For those who are in the Luciferian system they feed off the emotions their music creates and how it affects those who listen to it. They get their loosh and Satanic rewards in that way.
 Politicians who pass legislation which enslaves, angers, or puts the people in fear feed off those emotions. Or if they make the people happy they feed off that and twist it as one being empowered by them and worshipped by them. They are in a position of power as it is, a political office is power over the people by election, yet they will always seek more. How much loosh they can create while in office is what they will feed off of and be rewarded by. That is why many of them will turn to committing and hiding despicable crimes and using their political power to hide it so they can use and abuse the power of their office as a launchpad to create even more loosh.
 Teachers who have power over the minds of those they teach, feed off the effects of their teaching on others. For some reason being a Satanist in a position as a Sunday School teacher has great power. Because it is a deceptive power. They teach the wrong things that negatively affects those they teach, or they feed off the energy of the students who are there to learn about the Lord and feed off it for themselves. Being a Sunday school teacher is usually a stepping stone for them to obtain higher positions of trust and leadership in the churches they are infiltrating and trying to control, destroy, and feed off of.
 And then there is a completely hideous side of loosh. This is loosh created from terror, pain, suffering, agony, horror, injury, and death. A slow, suffering death is preferred with intense agony. These types of emotions created by all these kinds of feelings and pain are what are fed off of. Imagine an innocent child being horrible abused and then killed. The fear and pain of such an experience creates loosh for the person causing it. He gets a rush, a high from it. And those who make careers out of this sort of thing creating a lot of this type of loosh on a constant basis will rank high in the Luciferian system. That is why you will hear of children sex slave rings reaching into the White House, United Nations, and governments around the world. It is the politicians who establish and protect these types of crimes and abuses because they are the ones who can hide them and keep the fact they exist out of the media that they can control. Abusing the innocent creates a high amount of loosh.
 To serve Satan means to pay the piper. And you pay the piper with loosh. And in the piper's eyes, the more loosh you create the more status you can have in his kingdom. He obtains his kingdom or realm of rulership on earth by deception. And he does that through the secret societies and groups like the Illuminati that are created to control the earth and run it for him and through individual followers who branch out and infiltrate every facet of our society to build loosh nets for themselves and for Satan to feed off of. The more loosh Satan gets, the more power he has, in turn the more loosh a follower can create the more reward he will receive.
 One can easily recognize that most of those in the Luciferian system put themselves in some kind of positions of authority, fame, and power. Police officers, politicians, prison guards, teachers, entertainers, musicians, religious leaders, pastors. Positions where they can personally create and obtain loosh. The more loosh, the more power, the more rank, the more status in the Luciferian system.
 Lucifer does not own this world. We don't worship the Lord via permission from Lucifer. Yet that's the bottom line of what a lot of these Luciferians preach and the mentality they pound their listeners with. They want you to believe that Lucifer owns this world. Lucifer doesn't own this world, but millions of people think so. The kingdom of God is not of this world it is within those who are His. We live in a world enslaved by Lucifer and tricked and deceived by him, and who runs his own system here, but he is limited in what he can do because the Lord's people are here and it is Lucifer who is subjection to Him. If this was his world to begin with he wouldn't be limited. But he is. Because this world belongs to the Most High and it is He who judges mankind on it for their wickedness and rebellion. If it belonged to Lucifer there would be no judgment. It is this mentality, that this world belongs to Lucifer that has led millions over the centuries into error and complacency and defeatism. To accept the status quo.
 There are some who want you to accept and believe in defeat. That being a part of this world means you are being a part of Satan. That isn't true. We live in a world where people do wicked things and where segments of the population do follow and serve Satan's kingdom and realm of rulership here, but that doesn't mean it is all his. The Lord always has a remnant, a faction of those who serve and live for Him. And what these wolves are craftily declaring through their teachings and doctrines is that we can only worship the Lord through Lucifer's kingdom and it is defeatism and erroneous and blasphemous. By listening to them you are in agreement that you are enslaved by Lucifer thus becoming another victim of his.
 I may have to follow laws I don't agree with or conform to societal ways I don't like, but I serve the Most High by doing so and while doing so, not Lucifer. Lucifer doesn't own this world but he operates in it. He will be allowed to rule for a short time as the Antichrist but until then he is a wannabe world ruler and a completely psychotic fallen angel who masquerades as a God. Let's not give him credit where it is not due. So many people are so eager to hand this world over to him and say it is his when that is not true. That is because they glorify him and worship him and want to rob you of freedom from their constant evil and attempts to enslave you into their Luciferian system as pawns and victims. You can't enjoy freedom if you are a slave of his or theirs. Religious leaders are working to enslave you into Luciferianism and you don't even catch it but now you can because I am exposing what they are doing so it is up to you what you do with this information.
 There are some, who are so crafty with their speech that they would have you think no matter what you do you can't escape Lucifer because he owns this world and everything in it. That is not true, that is defeatism, erroneous and sucks the life out of people that listen to it. It is loosh vampirism. Those who listen to this get the life and energy sucked right out of them by those who teach it, because its defeatism and puts them in error and complacency.
 Where is the joy of serving the Lord when you are living in defeat? Where is the joy of knowing you can defeat the enemy, that you can defeat the devil if you are subconsciously believing you are living in the devil's world?
 One of the most fundamental beliefs in the Most High is that He created this earth. That He created mankind in the garden of Eden. Just as He said He did. Not Lucifer. Lucifer was a created being yet many speakers and leaders and religious wannabes want you to believe through their crafty speech that he owns this earth. They glorify him while they claim they are working against him. Wake up and pay attention to the junk you are listening to and stop listening to it. Stop giving them your loosh.
 Beware Of The Nets
 These Luciferians who operate on all and every level of our society would like nothing more than to create a net for you to jump into so they can feed off of your energy and emotions. They don't have to see you to feed off of you. They draw you into their net with websites, audios, books, radio shows, cd's, tapes, newspapers, magazines, newsletters, television, in fact any way they can reach you. Every day we come into contact with all of these things, and we participate in reading, listening or watching these things. Be careful of the net masters. Those who lure you so they can feed off of you.
 The Luciferian net is everywhere encompassing those of his followers. His net covers all of his own followers. He feeds off of everything they do and the loosh they create. He demands loosh in return for reward. There are thousands, perhaps millions of his followers who each have their own nets under his to fill them with this loosh and boost their own rank and status in Lucifer's eyes to receive reward from him. The bigger the net, the bigger the rank and status. And they will fight and compete against each other and use each other to fill their individual nets. You can think of it as a fishing net. I always wondered why I would see that term in the Bible Codes and what it referred to. I guess it was something the Lord was trying to teach me even when I didn't realize He was. And now I know what it means when I see it.
 Another term I often see in the Bible Codes is cattle, or cattle-herd. To Lucifer humans are cattle. These followers of his are going to have a rude awakening when they finally realize they are nothing more than cattle to him as well. They really believe they will win the war over earth between Lucifer and the Most High. They listen to Lucifer's incessant and constant pep talks and believe everything he says. That is what drives them and motivates them and ultimately leads to their complete possession of him and his demonic spirits. Even the demonic spirits believe he has a chance of winning. But it's hype. Even Lucifer himself can quote Revelation 20:10 where he is ultimately chained and cast into the bottomless pit for a 1000 years until he is then cast into the Lake of Fire for Eternity. He knows his fate but he doesn't want his followers to know or believe that. He has them in his net and he keeps them there with lies, deceit, flattery, praise, reward and even fear when necessary.
 Don't be lured into a net. Stay focused on your relationship with the Most High and learn how to hear from Him and to be led by Him directly. Ask Him to teach you how to hear Him. He doesn't speak to your head He speaks to your heart. And that is the biggest problem and cause of deception today among the churches, groups, organizations and people that claim they are of Him. They are listening to the louder voice in their heads instead of His small voice in their spirits. As a result they entertain these spirits and get taken over by them and then head off into the deceptions and errors those voices in their heads lead them into. Stay close in Him with your own personal relationship with Him and not through someone elses. Not through me, not through your pastor, not through your friends, your parents, or anyone. Take charge of your own relationship to Yahweh direct. And don't be surprised if He leads you away from people or ministries. If He is leading you away from something then don't fight Him. He could simply be pulling you out of a destructive net. Something you can't see with your own eyes that He can.
 Yes Luciferians are in our churches and ministries today calling themselves pastors, ministers, apostles, prophets, teachers and building followings of people who follow them rather than God Himself. Beware of their nets.
 Loosh is a mimmickry of God's Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that anoints and empowers God's people and this is how loosh works for Lucifer's people. A Satanic counterfeit and mimmickry of God's Holy Spirit.
 Without loosh Satan's ability to manifest and operate in this realm would be limited. The more loosh he can create the more power he has. It is positive energy that allows the Lord to work and manifest in our lives while it is this negative energy called loosh that empowers Satan.
 In Satan's kingdom you can never have enough loosh. For him and his followers it is the ultimate drug and it never satisfies. Enough is never enough. Enough doesn't exist.
 Beware of the Net Masters
 There are many Luciferians operating on the internet building their own niche markets and nets to soak it all in. If you listen to their teachings they are not much different than the New Age. In fact there are some that channel the false New Age Messiah St. Germain better than his openly dedicated followers.
 I have been either directly or indirectly involved with a few of them at one time or another. Most of them don't even realize they are pawns of the devils. They really believe they are hearing from the Lord and then relaying false prophecies, dreams, and visions to the Christian community leading them astray. The demons who control them are filling up their nets because these Christians are in error and deception and thus giving access to them to do so.
 Then there are those who are Luciferians and know exactly what they are doing and these are the most dangerous. They teach doctrines of Lucifer masked in Christian terms and use Scripture to back up their claims. They partake in drugs and alcohol then claim they are full of the Holy Spirit and speak out against sin. Watch the hypocrisy folks. Watch the hypocrisy because it always leads into blasphemy. And they are laughing while you soak up every word they preach. They are filling their nets.
 It took me a while to realize what was going on. I kept praying for the truth in all things and for some groups and ministries I always had more questions than answers until the Lord finally started opening my eyes and lifting the veil so I could see through them.
 And that is all you have to do folks. Start asking the Lord to teach you the truth about particular people or ministries. Don't listen to the voice in your head, listen to the small voice in your heart. And protect yourself from becoming used as loosh.
 When the Lord revealed this whole thing about loosh to me and what it is, why they need it, and how they get it, I started to pray this simple prayer to keep the enemy from trying to lure me into a net or affecting me in any way:
 Dear Heavenly Father the Most High,
 Father I ask that you keep me from becoming a victim to net builders and loosh vampires. I ask that if they try to use or abuse me that their attempts fail and fall to the ground null and void.
 Father I ask that you place a wall around me that the enemy can't penetrate. Keep me from error, deception, and evil and lead me into the truth of all things with your Holy Spirit.
 Thank you Father, in Yahushua's (Jesus) Name, Amen.
 Stay consistent and persistent when seeking things from the Most High. I ask for the same things every day and when I learn something new I add it to the list. For example, I ask for wisdom, discernment, the truth in all things, to be kept from evil and for greater measure of His eyes, heart, and ears so I can see things the way He does, hear things the way He does and feel about things the same way He does. I ask Him for those things almost every day. He isn't deaf, but He knows if you keep asking Him then it is something you really desire and He will honor that. It is of no use to keep asking Him for materialistic things, He is not a give-me God and He will and does say no to material things. But He will never say no when you ask for things in alignment with His Kingdom and His Word.
 Beware of the Net Masters. Safeguard Yourselves through the Most High.
 
Clam
Clam 10 years ago


 What with all this and the Apophis Asteroid too. I'm starting to get really scared.

 
kid-A
kid-A 10 years ago

Don't listen to the voice in your head, listen to the small voice in your heart. And protect yourself from becoming used as loosh.
Franz, methinks it may be time to stop listening to the little voices in your head....


 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago


 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago



 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 10 years ago

Guys we need to contact Ray Franz and let him know that some one of his clan " maybe Fred's illigitimate son" has lost his mind.
By the way Franz, If it took the aliens over two thousand years to reach this level of technology they must not be too bright.
Outoftheorg
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 10 years ago

I think this June all of you nay sayers are going to get a big suprise.. Aint that right Franz? hehehhe
 
Undecided
Undecided 10 years ago

Wow, the Brooklyn Franz is back from the dead with a new agenda.
Ken P.
 
kid-A
kid-A 10 years ago

FRANZ!!!! I just found the LOOSH!! You were right!!!

 
Virgochik
Virgochik 10 years ago

What's wrong with this guy? Is he for real?
 
Tigerman
Tigerman 10 years ago

Circul you without, and space the time, for all is all forever.
Unknowing men face.
Agree. . . the time IS.
Helpless, we sink.
 

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How aliens are seizing control of Earth (Meol'gadik)
by Franz 10 years ago 34 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw friends
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bikerchic
bikerchic 10 years ago

I can remember last year when the Lord revealed to me how Satan fed off the fear and suffering of others for more power. I didn't realize at the time that the aliens in his morbid kingdom did the same thing until I started learning about how they build nets on earth for loosh through humans.
I can remember it wasn't too long ago that you bid your farewell to the board. The poster better known for his "Aparently I'm a Killer" thread. But then you came back and then you left again sorta reminds me of the Wild Beast of Revelation.
At any rate pal you can only have one account PM me and let me know which character you wish to be.
Do you want to be:
IronGland
Vormek2.8
or Franz
or....... I could make you all dissappear!
It took me a while to realize what was going on. I kept praying for the truth in all things and for some groups and ministries I always had more questions than answers until the Lord finally started opening my eyes and lifting the veil so I could see through them.

And that is all you have to do folks. Start asking the Lord to teach you the truth about particular people or ministries. Don't listen to the voice in your head, listen to the small voice in your heart. And protect yourself from becoming used as loosh.

When the Lord revealed this whole thing about loosh to me and what it is, why they need it, and how they get it, I started to pray this simple prayer to keep the enemy from trying to lure me into a net or affecting me in any way:
Dear Heavenly Father the Most High,

Father I ask that you keep me from becoming a victim to net builders and loosh vampires. I ask that if they try to use or abuse me that their attempts fail and fall to the ground null and void.

Father I ask that you place a wall around me that the enemy can't penetrate. Keep me from error, deception, and evil and lead me into the truth of all things with your Holy Spirit.

Thank you Father, in Yahushua's (Jesus) Name, Amen.

Stay consistent and persistent when seeking things from the Most High. I ask for the same things every day and when I learn something new I add it to the list. For example, I ask for wisdom, discernment, the truth in all things, to be kept from evil and for greater measure of His eyes, heart, and ears so I can see things the way He does, hear things the way He does and feel about things the same way He does. I ask Him for those things almost every day. He isn't deaf, but He knows if you keep asking Him then it is something you really desire and He will honor that. It is of no use to keep asking Him for materialistic things, He is not a give-me God and He will and does say no to material things. But He will never say no when you ask for things in alignment with His Kingdom and His Word.

Beware of the Net Masters. Safeguard Yourselves through the Most High.



 
misanthropic
misanthropic 10 years ago

:: The aliens disguise themselves as peacemakers and guardians of the earth when all the while they instigate wars, famines, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, and general mayhem to cause fear, terror, suffering, and death so they can feed off the energy those things create. Not to mention they stock their UFO refrigerators with human bodies to literal eat them. They get both the emotional energy and the flesh of the human to feed off .
And I thought I did too many drugs...
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 10 years ago

Dang, bikerchic....you called it. It is *good* to see you, IronGland... :wink:
 
bikerchic
bikerchic 10 years ago

LOL Leolaia:
Dang, bikerchic....you called it.
Na, wasn't just me I had help, very little gets by the owners of the board.
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 10 years ago

My suspicions were raised when I saw Vormek2.8 using the same avatar that our ol' buddy Franz had been using earlier in the day. But checking all three IPs, yep, all are the same....
I have to say, this is one of the best running jokes I've seen in a while, but having multiple accounts is a big no no, sorry to say.....
 
bikerchic
bikerchic 10 years ago

but having multiple accounts is a big no no, sorry to say.....
Yes it is! I'll give him until morning my time to decide which one he wants to keep unless of course Simon nukes all of them, or if I don't get my morning cuppa java.......
g'nite Leo.
 
orbison11
orbison11 10 years ago

oh dear, some little boy forgot to take his meds:(:(:frowning:
 
kid-A
kid-A 10 years ago

Franz?? Where are you brother? Did the mothership finally come and pick you up? Have you decided on an identity yet?
I think you should remain as Franz, I miss your posts !! JWD is losing some of its zaniness without you around!
Ground Control to Major Franz !!!!
 
Clam
Clam 10 years ago

realize there are always the armies of the 4th dimension trying to control or manipulate
Franz you were right.
Evil aliens = demons
Good aliens = angels
4th dimensional aliens = forum assistants
Get the hell back to the mother ship and leave Meol'gadik now!
Also, Commander Vas'deferenz says can you bring the particle accelerator back. It must not get in the hands of the GB.
 
Clam
Clam 10 years ago


 
Knorr
Knorr 10 years ago

Both Irongland and Vormek 2.8 were disabled at the time Franz entered the scene so there were never "multiple accounts".
 
luna2
luna2 10 years ago

Golly, franz, your posts are just too long for my limited attention span today. Perhaps you should write a book. Science fiction would be my recommendation.
 
Big Tex
Big Tex 10 years ago



 
Knorr
Knorr 10 years ago

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
bikerchic
bikerchic 10 years ago

Both Irongland and Vormek 2.8 were disabled at the time Franz entered the scene so there were never "multiple accounts".
And another one bites the dust................pfffffffffffffffffffffffffff...........gone!
 

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Topic Summary
if you sit back and analyze how things are run, one thing is evident: that power on earth is in the hands of a nefarious few and they are not human.
humans are controlled.
unless you are a believer and follower of the most high with your eyes opened as to what's going on, then you are most likely being manipulated or controlled by them in one way or another.



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Answering JW Objections
by Rook 10 years ago 7 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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Rook
Rook 10 years ago


Answering Common Objections to the Doctrine of the Trinity 


 Though the doctrine of the Trinity is quite biblical, many Christians find themselves unable to adequately answer the attacks on this doctrine by other monotheistic religions such as Islam and Judaism, as well as polytheistic and henotheistic religions such as Mormonism and the Jehovah’s Witnesses (henotheism is the belief in multiple gods, but the worship of only one). Few Christian doctrines are attacked so viciously as the doctrine of the Trinity. This aspect of the nature of God is awe-inspiring and wonderful. As Christians, we should be prepared to explain it to unbelievers and to defend it against attacks. As you will see, most arguments against the Trinity are weak and unable to stand up to biblical scrutiny or an appeal to logic. If you witness to a Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, or a Muslim, some of these arguments are likely to come up, and it’s vitally important that you are able to give an answer (1 Peter 3:15), demolish these arguments (2 Corinthians 10:5), and contend for the faith (Jude 3,4).
I have covered the biblical supports for the triune nature of God in a previous article, “A Comprehensive Biblical Defense of the Trinity.” If you have not read that article, I encourage you to do so before moving on to this one. In it, I provide biblical proof for the following points:
1. There is only one God
2. The Father is God
3. Jesus is God
4. The Holy Spirit is God
5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons.

Before addressing the most common objections, it’s important to make sure that we are starting with an accurate definition of the Trinity. Many who oppose the Trinity do so with a faulty understanding of the definition. Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one true God, and within that God there are three co-equal and co-eternal persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each Person of the Trinity is distinct from the other, but all three comprise one God. Various heresies arise when this definition is distorted, and I covered some of them in the previous article. Now that we start from a common definition, let’s turn ourselves to some common objections.

1. The word “Trinity” isn’t found anywhere in the Bible!

True enough, the word “Trinity” isn’t found in the Bible. A similar argument is used by theological modernists who assert that the term “homosexual” is a modern word that didn’t exist at the time the Bible was written, therefore the Bible can’t condemn homosexuality. I think most people will agree that the Bible STILL condemns homosexuality, even thought this particular English word wasn’t used in the Greek or Hebrew texts. Interestingly, the word “pornography” is similarly absent from Scripture, but we are still able to view the biblical teachings on sexual morality, coupled with Jesus’ teaching that a man who looks at a woman with lust commits adultery with her in his heart to recognize that pornography is sinful. The word “theocracy” is not found in the Bible, but the concept can be found there. The absence of a word does not preclude its teaching in Scripture.

Critics also argue that no single verse of Scripture clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. While many single verses provide excellent evidence for the triune nature of God (see the previous article), it is true that this doctrine is not capsulated in a single verse or passage of Scripture. The Bible is not titled, “Christian Doctrine for Dummies.” It is sometimes necessary to look at the teachings of Scripture as a whole. When we allow ourselves to do that, we can see that the Trinity is quite Scriptural.

2. The Trinity doctrine is confusing, and God is not the author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33 in the NIV states in part, “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.” In the spurious New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the verse similarly states, “For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace .” Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons will frequently cite this verse when arguing against the Trinity. After all, the concept of a triune God can be confusing. They argue that such a confusing doctrine must come from Satan, since God is not a God of confusion or disorder. Yet such an argument is illogical. That humans cannot fully understand the nature of God simply means that we are finite created beings who do not possess the mind of God. The Bible is clear that such confusions are to be expected:

· “ ‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.’” – Isaiah 55:8-9
· “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” – Romans 11:33
· “Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” – 1 Corinthians 13:12

Many aspects of God’s nature are hard, if not impossible, for the human mind to comprehend. For example, infinite concepts give me a headache. If I try to comprehend the concept of an infinite sum, I get a headache. If I try to really comprehend the eternal nature of God (without a beginning or an end), I get a headache. My finite human mind simply cannot comprehend eternity beyond the vague concept. I’m not alone in this either. While Jehovah’s Witnesses will use the confusion argument against the Trinity, they contradict themselves in other areas. In the Watchtower publication Reasoning from the Scriptures, they acknowledge this confusion after citing Psalm 90:2, referencing God’s eternal nature: “Is that reasonable? Our minds cannot fully comprehend it. But that is not a sound reason for rejecting it.” [1]


As is so often the case in arguments by cultists and heretics, they have divorced 1 Corinthians 14:33 from its context to use it in the fashion they desire. It is vital that we read Scripture in context to gain a proper understanding of it. Let’s put this verse back in its appropriate context, including verses 26-33, 39-40:
“What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace…. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.”
When placed in context, we can see that this passage is talking about how our worship should be orderly. Paul is trying to put the gifts of tongues and prophecy into their proper usage and eliminate the confusion that can result in a service when these gifts are used improperly. Just as there is no discord within God, so there should be no discord or confusion in our worship of God. Putting Scripture in context allows us to read it the way the authors (and the Ultimate Author) intended us to do so.

3. The Trinity is a pagan concept adopted by Christianity.

This is one of the most common arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity. I’ve heard it expressed often by Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. Usually, the person using this argument has no evidence to back up this assertion, but on rare occasions they do. Unfortunately, it is equally rare that a Christian is prepared to “demolish” this argument. It can be done easily by an appeal to facts and logic.

The argument typically is expressed that certain pagan cultures, such as the ancient Babylonians and Assyrians, developed a Trinitarian belief in places far removed from the birthplace of Christianity and predating it by thousands of years. Therefore, it’s logical to conclude that these pagan doctrines were introduced into Christianity hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, this isn’t exactly true.

The Babylonians and Assyrians did NOT develop a Trinitarian theological dogma. Rather, they believed in triads of gods who headed up a council of other gods. In other words, whereas the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that ONE GOD is comprised of three co-equal and co-eternal persons, the Babylonians and Assyrians believed that three separate gods formed a leadership over other gods. In this, their beliefs more closely resemble the polytheistic/henotheistic beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. Mormon doctrine holds that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods in leadership over this world. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jehovah God created Jesus – a lesser god, and that the Holy Spirit is simply Jehovah’s active force in this world. These beliefs are closer to the ancient pagan beliefs than is the Trinity doctrine, which is strictly monotheistic. Moreover, the separation of early Christian development from these pagan beliefs with respect to time and geography make it highly unlikely that the pagan beliefs played any role in the Church’s clarification of the Trinity doctrine as found in the Athanasian Creed. This creed reads, in part, “This is what the catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty. What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being. So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being. Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, there are not three gods, but one God.” It should be noted that “catholic” in the early centuries was used to describe universal and orthodox Christianity long before the Roman Catholic Church existed as such. The creed continues in this manner. Athanasius did not fabricate this. Rather, he summarized the teaching of Scripture.

Association based on similarities is faulty logic. Pagans (and indeed practically all ancient cultures on earth) have a legend concerning a global flood. Does this negate the truthfulness of the global flood described in Genesis? Does this mean the Genesis account was “borrowed”? Of course not. The ubiquity of the flood story actually buttresses its truthfulness, even though other cultures don’t have all the details correct. Furthermore, some pagan cultures have a “messiah” legend that has similarities to the gospel. However, there are also differences in these stories. We can take joy in the fact that these legends haven’t the accuracy of the Bible as verified historically and archaeologically. Similarities don’t impart guilt. Therefore, similar pagan doctrines in triads of gods are not the same as the Trinitarian doctrine of Christianity, and it is baseless to assume that the Trinity was “borrowed” from paganism. It’s simply not true.

4. Jesus calls the Father, “the only true God,” therefore Jesus cannot be God.

This is an interesting argument often raised by Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. This argument, as we will see, is self-defeating for them. This argument refers to Jesus’ words to the Father in John 17:3, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Critics argue that the Father cannot be the “only true God” if Jesus and the Holy Spirit can also claim to be God. The thinking is illogical. First, Jesus’ words do not exclude the Son and Holy Spirit from also being the only true God. They DO exclude Jesus and the Holy Spirit from being separate gods. In other words, if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus cannot also be a true God and the Holy Spirit cannot also be a true God (distinguishing them as separate gods rather than simply separate persons). If we understand the true nature of the Trinity, we can acknowledge that the Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal persons that comprise the one true God, and John 17:3 does not counter that. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe that Jesus is a separate god, and Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit is yet another god. In the New World Translation, John 1:1 states, “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god ” (emphasis added). Mormonism’s founding prophet taught, “ In the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.”[2] Now if a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness wants to claim that this verse teaches that the Father alone is the only true God, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit must be false gods. If that is true, the teachings of the LDS prophets and the New World Translation must be wrong.


5. Jesus prayed to God in the garden, so Jesus can’t be God.


This statement has needlessly stumped some Christians, though not for long. It is a misleading generality to say, “Jesus prayed to God.” To be more precise, we should say that Jesus (The Son) prayed to The Father in the garden. While it is true that there is only one God, it is equally true that God exists as three persons – Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. During His earthly ministry and being subject to a mortal body, Jesus willingly endured the limitations of man. As such, it should come as no surprise that He communicated with The Father through prayer! This does nothing to diminish the deity of Jesus Christ or to contradict the monotheistic nature of God.


6. The Bible says that God is ONE!

This argument, which attempts to disprove the triune nature of God based on unity, is based largely on two verses:

· Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. – Deuteronomy 6:4
· "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one’.” – Mark 12:29

Deuteronomy 6:4 in the New World Translation says, “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah .” We’ve gone into detail in other articles about the fact that “Jehovah” is not a word that appears in the Bible, but is rather a modification of Yahweh. One way to read the last phrase with some of the Hebrew intact is “Yahweh (Jehovah) our elohim is one Yahweh (Jehovah). The Hebrew words themselves are “Yahweh elohim echad Yahweh.” The NIV footnote for this verse lists a few possible ways to translate this verse based on its grammatical construct. Echad means “one” or “only”. Because of the construct, this verse could be translated as it is above, or as “ The LORD our God is one LORD,” “The LORD is our God, the LORD is one,” or “The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” I think the best of these translations can be assessed by observing the context of the passage. In Deuteronomy 5, Moses had just presented the Israelites with the Ten Commandments. One sin that marked these people was their habit of turning to idolatry (golden calf ring a bell?). As we read down in chapter 6, we see that this is still the focus and concern at this point. In verses 14-16 we read, “Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.” This is a very clear exhortation for the Israelites to abandon their worship of multiple “gods.” Therefore, the most reasonable way of interpreting Deuteronomy 6:4 is “The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” This establishes that only Yahweh is the true God. All other “gods” are false and must be rejected. Deuteronomy 6:4 does not exclude God from being triune in nature. Mark 12:29 is simply a recitation of Deuteronomy 6:4 with the intent of that verse intact – we have one and ONLY one God!

Yahweh is our elohim, Yahweh alone. In my previous article on the Trinity, I established Scripturally that not only is the Father Yahweh, but Jesus is also Yahweh. Similarly, the deity of the Holy Spirit reveals He is also Yahweh. In this article and the previous one, I have addressed some of the most common objections to the doctrine of the Trinity. The teaching of the Word of God is clear. There is one God. God exists in three co-equal and co-eternal persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of these three are rightfully called God, yet each is distinct from the other. The absence of one convenient summary of this truth in Scripture does not negate its truthfulness, nor does it mean this truth is not found in Scripture. God has revealed this wonderful truth to us through His Word. The question is, are we listening?
 
 
Super_Becka
Super_Becka 10 years ago

Very nice post, very informative and very interesting. Thanks, and welcome to the board!! I look forward to more posts from you.
-Becka :smile:
 
Rook
Rook 10 years ago

Super_Becka, Thanks and Aloha...
 
yaddayadda
yaddayadda 10 years ago

"Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one true God, and within that God there are three co-equal and co-eternal persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each Person of the Trinity is distinct from the other, but all three comprise one God. Yea that's very simple but it's also ridiculous, being quite obviously profoundly self-contradictory and an insult to your intelligence. 3 = 1, all 3 distinct and separate but making up one God. What a load of nonsense, honestly. It amazes me the abstruse and twisted nonsense that staunch trinitarian defenders will resort to in order to explain away the obvious meaning of crystal clear statements by Jesus and others in the bible. It's never enough to accept Jesus words at face value when he said that the Father was greater than him, that no one was good but God (ie, the Father), that Jesus could do nothing of his own initiative but only what the father told him, that he was sent by the Father, that Jesus twice referred to the Father is his God and the God of Mary, that Jesus was literally dead and had to be resurrected by the Father, that Jesus was given all authority and his throne, that the apostle Paul said that the head of Christ was God, that the Father gave Jesus his new name in heaven, that Jesus had to learn obedience, that Paul only ever called the Father God and never Jesus, and so on and so on. The tortured, unconvincing reasoning to explain these clear biblical statements makes me pity trinitarians.
 
Honesty
Honesty 10 years ago

Yea that's very simple but it's also ridiculous, being quite obviously profoundly self-contradictory and an insult to your intelligence. 3 = 1, all 3 distinct and separate but making up one God. What a load of nonsense, honestly.
It must be nonsense to an unbeliever.
 
carla
carla 10 years ago

yadda,
what does 1x1x1=? (note I did not ask 1+1+1=)
 
Rook
Rook 10 years ago

Yadda,
First of all...i respect your opinion.
The doctrine of the Trinity seems to confound people like you so much, but the very nature of God is something very important to make clear. The concept of a triune God can be kind of confusing at times. If we humans could fully comprehend everything about the nature of God, He would be a pretty small God, wouldn't he? It doesn't surprise me in the least that our limited comprehension has difficulty grasping the full nature of the One who spoke the universe into existence.
You won't find the word "Trinity" used in the Bible to describe God. I'm not sure when the term was coined, but the term aptly describes the true nature of God as evidenced in Scripture. Paul may not have used the term, but I'm sure he understood the concept. We're not talking a polytheistic doctrine (three separate gods), nor are we talking about a three-headed boogieman. The existence of one God in three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) is the only logical conclusion we can draw from Scripture.
First of all, we know that there is ONLY ONE GOD (Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Timothy 2:5, Isaiah 44:6).
Yet there is a plurality to God:
- "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26)
- "God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us" (Genesis 3:22).
Some would say that God could be speaking to the angels in these verses, but that's simply not correct. God was speaking to co-creator(s) in these verses. The Bible tells us that Jesus - not angels - created all things:
- "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3
- "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him," Colossians 1:15-19.
- "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." Hebrews 1:2
The Bible refers to each person of the triune God uniquely. There is God the Father ("Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead--", Galatians 1:1), God the Son (see John 1:1-18 and 5:18), and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18, 3:11, 12:32, John 14:26).
In Luke 3:22, we find the Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove upon Jesus, while God the Father spoke from Heaven. Three persons - but still just One God.
In John 14:10, Jesus said, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
So you can see, that while the term "trinity" developed after the Bible was written, the nature of God that it describes is evidenced in Scripture. Dr. John Warwick Montgomery said, "The doctrine of the Trinity is not 'irrational'; what is irrational is to suppress the biblical evidence for trinity in favor of unity....The choice is clear: either the Trinity or a 'God' who is only a pale imitation of the Lord of biblical and confessional Christianity." I am not a great theologian, and I won't pretend that I fully comprehend the triune nature of our omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. But I do understand the basic concept, and can easily see that it is really the only logical conclusion when scriptural evidence is assessed.
 
Inquisitor
Inquisitor 10 years ago

Before addressing the most common objections, it’s important to make sure that we are starting with an accurate definition of the Trinity. Many who oppose the Trinity do so with a faulty understanding of the definition. Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one true God, and within that God there are three co-equal and co-eternal persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. - Rook
Does the fault lie in their understanding? Or does it lie in the logic of the definition?
Try as i have, I can't seem to get in my head how one can have a SINGLE true God split into 3 persons when the need arises and yet have EACH of the 3 stand as a COMPLETE TRUE GOD on his own. If each of the three "persons" are "components" of GOD, how can GOD be complete when one "component" or part of GOD leaves heaven to sped some time on earth?
4. Jesus calls the Father, “the only true God,” therefore Jesus cannot be God.
In other words, if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus cannot also be a true God and the Holy Spirit cannot also be a true God (distinguishing them as separate gods rather than simply separate persons).
I'm sorry, but what is the difference between separate gods and separate persons?
Is there another definition here that I may not be aware of?
If we understand the true nature of the Trinity, we can acknowledge that the Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal persons that comprise the one true God
So you're saing that the one true God sent a God the Son to the earth who is in actual fact himself the one true God? ????????
It is a misleading generality to say, “Jesus prayed to God.”
Misleading to whom? To those who believe in the Trinity or to those who don't? I don't think the critics have a problem with it. As for proponents, well, it does fit your definition. If the Father is God, then wasn't God Jesus praying to God the Father?
To be more precise, we should say that Jesus (The Son) prayed to The Father in the garden.
WHY? If they are indeed the same ONE TRUE GOD. Why is there a need to get into specifics? In fact would it be wrong to even drop the name "Jesus" and just go with "God on earth prayed to God in heaven"? WHY do you now in this context see a need to split GOD into his components?
INQ
 

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So I clicked on the Mormon come-on advertisement to "Come chat about Jesus Christ"
by oppostate 8 months ago 8 Replies latest 8 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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oppostate
oppostate 8 months ago

So I clicked on the Mormon come-on advertisement on the top, the right side and the bottom of the JWD page that invited me to "Come chat about Jesus Christ".
I started a chat with Brook and Taiza and asked them why the subtitle of the book of Mormon changed from "Another Gospel of Jesus Christ" to "Another Testament of Jesus Christ".
Brooke told me it hadn't so I googled it and told them there's plenty of websites that refer to it that way and I had a very old copy with that subtitle on it.
So Taiza says it's probably a copy by some break off group and not from them.
I told her the inside said from the "LDS"
So they left the chat.
So I figured maybe there's a technical glitch and I shouldn't assume they just dropped me.
So I log on again and give my last name instead of my first name this time.
And Hellen and Catherine log into the channel.
I ask them again about the title change and they drop off the chat.
So I figured twice is very unlikely that they had a glitch, and I'm pretty sure they dropped me because they didn't like my question.
One more time, I'll give them one more try.
So I log on again, with my middle name this time.
Brooke and Jayne log on.
I type that I'd been chatting previously with Brooke.
She types back that she's a different Brooke.
So Jayne starts asking if I read the Book of Mormon.
I say yes and I have a question about it.
So I ask my question about the "another gospel" to 'another testament" change.
She says that she does not recall ever hearing about that and what do I like about the Book of Mormon.
I then ask her about the "gospel" Paul wrote about in Corinthians.
She says it's the same as in the Book of Mormon.
I ask back that if the gospel is the "same" why call it another??? And I quote her Galatians 1:8.
She says that it does not apply to the book of Mormon since it is not different from the Bible so therefore, it is not another good news.
But that is the subtitle of the book isn't it.
So she sends me a link to a two minute video by the LDS telling of the finding of the tablets and the transcription from reformed Egyptian to English by Joseph Smith.
I started questioning whether reformed Egyptian was a real language. So she sent me a link to an article the LDS has published on this, very shady reasonings there.
So we had a nice chat about there being hardly any evidence about this except Mark Hoffman's forgeries which the LDS Church was very convinced were original ancient documents.
She sent me another link to an article about what the LDS has to say about the forgeries.
It seemed whatever I asked they already did have some canned response, and if I objected to anything too strongly they'd cut the chat. So it was slow treading and gentle, but I think I brought up some questions that would put anyone who looks into the historical facts with a reasoning mind into high alert that there's something wrong there.
I sooooooo, wish that the WT would put something like a chat on their website, I'd be there in a second, bringing up questions that made me wake up. I guess that's why they don't have one yet, until that is, they continue copying the Mormons and assemble a host of canned responses to the hard questions. And if all else fails they'll just dump you like an "apostate" from the chat.
One thing good that came out of this. I know that everytime I click on one of those annoying Mormon ads in this web site Simon gets some money from them (and it helps keep JWD going :smile:
How about you, would you jump on a chat with JW's or Mormons to try awakening some of them?
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 8 months ago

I dont think I would try a chat because Im not quick enough on my feet cerebrally speaking
Sounds like you did a great job though. I guess one way you can tell is when they drop the chat. That reminds me of the brothers at Bethel that hang up the phone when they feel uncomfortable enough.
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 8 months ago

Millie we are often so alike! I am the same exact way.
Mormons like to ask that 'what do you like about us?' question. Some came to my door when I was still a witness. (Disclosure: talking to Mormons isn't easy for me. if I have been prejudiced against anyone, it is Mormons. I think this is based partially on subconscious dislike of my own past religion and sort of wanting to deflect my frustration at something.)
They asked what I like about them and I managed to say I appreciated that they are very family centered. They asked if I had read the Book of Mormon, and I had read some of it. They were all gushing and said 'what did you think???' I said I didn't want to discuss it. I wanted to keep their visit brief and didn't want to get negative on them. I guess as much as I disliked Mormons, I knew what knocking on doors was like so felt sympathetic.
A witness chat line would be funny. I'm pretty sure they would hang up the second someone said something negative.
 +1 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd 8 months ago
To be fair to the Mormons (and they are a pet subject of mine) in some ways I have a lot of admiration for them. In comparing the 2 religions I believe the LDS church has got a harder sell with their ideas than witnesses will ever have. If there are holes in the witnesses beliefs then the Mormon church has got a gaping holes. That been said despite this the mormon church has out performed the witnesses in everything e.g membership, wealth etc. As far as openness and transparency goes on joseph smith,the history of the church, and the current problems they are facing they would be decades ahead of the jws, and i can show you some external news articles that testify to this. I say good on you mormon church. I have questioned Mormon missionaries face to face about this. I explain nicely that I left the jw religion and give them my perspective on it. Most of the ugly stuff they know about e.g gold plates weighing nearly 200 pounds/ Book of Abraham/Joseph smith convicted of fraud. Well put it this way how many JW know Rutherford was an alcoholic, who was sued for slander.
 +1 / -0
Fisherman
Fisherman 8 months ago
Mormons want to chat about Jesus and use the Bible as bait to lure you into the Book of Mormon. That is what they are about--Not the Bible, only what Joseph Smith quoted from the Bible (KJV at that). KJV is the only Bible Mormons like.

 +1 / -0
LeeT
LeeT 8 months ago

What a novel service that chat line is. I just went over there to send brownie points for Elder Bexler with whom I had a pleasant chat today. Elder B and I just spoke about family and religious backgrounds, how he was finding our territory, his work schedule, and future plans etc. We didn't stray onto a discussion of ids beliefs at all. I know they're cranks but I wouldn't have offered him any argument he hadn't heard before so I didn't see any point in spoiling his day.
 +1 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd 8 months ago
Just going back to my comment above. "Although the Mormons are more fanciful with their belief the JWS ate more dangerous with theirs. "
 +2 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 8 months ago
What's Maroni doing writing in Egyptian cuneiform anyway? Was he illiterate in English?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 months ago
Ask them to describe why they believe. If they mention anything spiritual (e.g. God bore witness to me) just keep asking about that experience. The more you probe the weaker it will reveal itself to be. There is almost no point in debating theology but every point in asking sincere questions about their reason for belief. My greatest pauses for thought have always been when people asked me searching questions rather than told me things. As you flesh out the backstory of the missionary you can ask questions like , 'So you have given up 2 years of your life for this based upon x. What would you do if you knew it was wrong...? Can you go home? Would you go home? etc..
 +1 / -0

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Compare Bethel with the LDS HQ in Salt Lake City
by POs Son 7 years ago 16 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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POs Son
POs Son 7 years ago

I have been to both, Bethel (all 3 complexes: Brooklyn, Walkill, Paterson plus the Jersey City Stanley Theater) as a teenager, and to tour the LDS (Mormon) complex in Salt Lake City as an adult. I did Bethel as a "Witness" Child, and SLC as a totally non-JW adult. The LDS complex seemed more open to the public, inviting and comfortable. Their buildings are beautiful and inspirational and impecibly clean.

Thoughts?
 
undercover
undercover 7 years ago

Having not been to any LDS stuff I can't compare.
I have been to Bethel. Bethel was clean, neat, fairly modern and the people were friendly...but it was still a manufacturing plant. Just like the last auto plant I toured. Clean, neat, modern and the people were friendly.
 
gubberningbody
gubberningbody 7 years ago

At least they're encouraged to make money and go to college. (Not to mention the only 2 year mission thing instead of the rest of your life)
 
monkeyman
monkeyman 7 years ago

I’ve seen both and they were eerily similar. The people were all dressed up like CO’s and elders wives.

Men had suits and women wore long dresses. The buildings were more churchlike but the people were very similar.

I had business dealings with a woman in Utah. The AAA club will tell you that Utah is about 75% Mormon. That’s a crock. It’s more like 60% Mormon and 40% EX Mormon.

Ex Mormons are treated as disfellowshipped. So they basically have their own social/work system to survive in a Mormon world.

Interestingly, Utah has one of the highest suicide rates for teenagers in the country. I also saw an inordinate amount of Gothic teenagers.

There is similarity also in their culture because it is so strict and extremely conservative. They also have similarities in power hungry clergy types preying on the flock. (According to the ex Mormon I spoke with who gave her experience)
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

If we could have a 'meter' to measure control-freak-ism, and totally benign is 0(like a good milk-toast Methodist) and totally evil and dangerous is 10(like Jim Jones or David Koresh groups) then I would say that the LDS are a 3 and moving toward a 2 ... they used to be a7or 8 in the 1800s. The Watchtower was about a 4 in the 1960s and moving toward a 3 ... but they got stuck at 4 and seem to be moving back to a 5 ... in my opinion.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 years ago

would be interesting to see both, only been to The Ridgeway,Mill Hill London, never even saw the Bittacy Hill complex
 
Farkel
Farkel 7 years ago

:The LDS complex seemed more open to the public, inviting and comfortable. Their buildings are beautiful and inspirational and impecibly clean.
:Thoughts?
I've been to both. Plus, I grew up in Salt Lake City. One of my great-grandparents worked on the Tabernacle. It's quite an amazing building. No metal nails were used in its construction and its accoustics are spectacular. When a pin is dropped on the stage, one can clearly hear it in the very back of the hall. I know because I witnessed that demonstration.
That being said, the most spectacular building in Temple Square is the Mormon Temple itself. Non-Mormons and even Mormons not in perfect standing in the Church are not allowed to enter it.
The other main difference is the beauty of the Mormon temple compared with the "beauty" of the Watchtower complex in Brooklyn. One looks like something befitting as an edifice dedicated to a God. The other looks befitting as an edifice dedicated to a Printing Corporation.
Farkel
 
rebel8
rebel8 7 years ago

I interrupt this thread for a word from our sponsors.
I did a comparison of Mormons to dubs here, in case anyone's interested. It has nothing to do with HQ, just beliefs and practices.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 7 years ago

Thanks for the comparison. The Bethel HQ was touted as one reason why an outsider became interested in the org. "They were so clean, neat, well-dressed, well-mannered, etc," is a paraphrase of the man. Of course, the Mormons have the same qualities at their HQ too!
Thanks for the link to your comparison of ex-Mormons and ex-JWs. Very similar except for a few areas.
 
wantarevolution
wantarevolution 7 years ago

I remember back in my old city, on a bank holiday there was this "open day" of all the places that were usually closed to the public - old buildings that had turned to offices , masonic lodge etc) an interesting one was mormon meeting place - i went in there, and it was freaky how much like a hall it was , down to the over eager kids in suits giving me tracts about how great life as a mormon is.
Then I went to the synagogue and chatted to the rabbi who was equally happy to chat about the rugby as his was about religion (Which we did a lot of)
 
reniaa
reniaa 7 years ago

why do people always compare Jws with mormons on here rather than catholic church or anglicans etc who also have centralised leadership and building for said leaders to live in?
Reniaa
 
Marlene
Marlene 7 years ago

Reniaa- I encourage you to check out the Ex-Mormon site: http://www.exmormon.org/
You'll see the stories are eerily similar to the ones found here.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 years ago

Ren, you Dubs have far more in common with Morons than Catholics or Anglicans, firstly you have a set of weird and strange belief systems, you adhere to a centralized committee of men to control you, you both have an obsession of constantly promoting numerical growth, you both promote the belief that the bible cannot be understood on it's own, you both have large sexual scandals that have rocked both organizations, you both dress in a similar way, you both do door knocking work, not much in similar with the Catholic/Anglican churches there is there Ren, also in bugs Dubs that they are compared to Morons, and the biggest factor is they both LIE.
 
reniaa
reniaa 7 years ago

jookbeard are you serious with your post that anglican and catholics haven't had sex scandals that rocked there orgs, to this day catholics have made the biggest payouts known for any church in the courts, and anglicans have had their fair share never mind baptists etc but that is a side issue.
They are all centralised in leadership with the leaders deciding the doctrine for the whole.
1 john 5:7 additions is a proven catholic lie put in the bible by them.
I'm sure if I went to an ex(insert religious or political group here) I would get a lot of negative stuff.
Basically this whole thread is just a fallacy.
Reniaa
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 years ago

of course not Ren , they have had their fair share of scandals as well, just not as big or as bad as the WTS, and as far as I know they do not actively condone pedophilia like the WTS does, Elder Ren! hit a nerve did it Ren, do you post as a Mormon apologist on their forums as well?
 
isaacaustin
isaacaustin 7 years ago

DOn't let Reniaa hijack this thread...it is a pretty good thread....ignore
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 years ago

one thing I have noticed is that the Morons have certainly cold called me far more in the years I have since left the WTS, still more in common with the WTS except the Duds are not being very zealous in it any more
 

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CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL APPEARS IN LDS RECORDS
by badboy 9 years ago 2 Replies latest 9 years ago   jw friends
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badboy
badboy 9 years ago

I YOU GO INTO FAMILYSEARCH,AND TYPE IN CHARLES RUSSELL,NORH AMERICA,THEN USA,THEN PENNSYLVANIA,ITS CAMES UP WITH ABOUT 3 RECORDS CONCERNING CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL.
ONE RECORD APPEARS AS CHARLES TAGE RUSSELL.
 
garybuss
garybuss 9 years ago

Interesting site, Thanks!
http://www.familysearch.org/




 
badboy
badboy 9 years ago

I HAVE BEEN THINKING;WHO SUBMITTED HIS NAME?
 

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Comments You Will Not Hear at the March 19, 2006 WT Study (ADMINISTRATION)
by blondie 10 years ago 24 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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blondie
blondie 10 years ago

Comments You Will Not Hear at the March 19, 2006 WT Study (February 15, 2006 issue, pages 16-20)(ADMINISTRATION)) Review comments will be in redWT material from today's WT will be in black
Quotes from other sources will be in quotes boxesw = Watchtower
g = Awake
www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible (various Bible translations online)www.reexamine.org (WT publications online)www.silentlambs.org (child abuse)www.ajwrb.org (blood issue)http://www.randytv.com/secret/unitednations.htm (United Nations issue)
AN ADMINISTRATION FOR FULFILLING GOD'S PURPOSE
"[God] operates all things according to the way his will counsels."-EPHESIANS
1:11.
Opening Comments
Every year the WTS has at least 2 study articles prior to the Lord's Supper on Nisan 14 that pre-condition 6 million plus JWs to the concept that they will not eat the bread and drink the wine. They are invited to a "party" only to watch, with only 8,524 JWs who partake and over 98,269 congregations, few JW congregations have even one person that partakes. Year after year, over 6 million people are told that they have no part in the ceremony that Jesus instituted with his dearest friends.
Watch how the WTS weaves in scriptural "snippets" making the Bible say something it does not.
Paragraph 7 "administration" then linked to a euphemism for "government "bring about a united universe occupied by creatures who lovingly submit to his sovereignty"
Paragraph 10 "administration" linked to "kingdom"
Paragraph 14 "administration" linked to "Kingdom government"
Paragraph 16 "administration" linked to "Messianic kingdom government"
Can you find other places where the WTS has pulled apart scriptures into snippets and strung them together to make it seem that the scriptures support their viewpoint?
START OF ARTICLE
ON Wednesday evening, April 12, 2006, some 16 million people will gather to
observe the Lord's Evening Meal. In each meeting place, there will be a table on
which unleavened bread, representing Christ's body, and red wine, symbolizing
his shed blood, will have been set. Toward the end of a discourse explaining the
meaning of the Memorial of Jesus' death, these emblems -first the bread, then
the wine-will be passed among all present. In relatively few congregations of
Jehovah's Witnesses, one or more in attendance will partake of the emblems. In
many cases, however, no one present will partake. Why is it that only a few
Christians, those who hope to live in heaven, partake, whereas the majority,
those who hope to live forever on earth, do not partake?
16 million people will gather
Last year only 6,613,829 of the 16,383,333 that gathered were JWs; though there were 2.3% less than the year before, this ratio of JWs to non-JWs has been fairly constant over the years. Who are these 10 million non-JWs? Potential converts or inactive and disfellowshipped JWs from the past 30 years who no longer attend meetings any other time or new people? What is your experience?
Discourse
http://hufffamily.com/html/Observing_the_Memorial_of_Christ_s_Death.htm
Relatively few will partake
And this and the next article along with the discourse are designed to condition JWs and others attending NOT to partake.
alt
Christians--only JWs
Carrot--majority, those who hope to live forever on earth
2 Jehovah is a God of purpose. In fulfilling his purpose, he "operates all
things according to the way his will counsels." (Ephesians 1:11) He first
created his only-begotten Son. (John 1:1, 14; Revelation 3:14) Then, through
this Son, Jehovah created a family of spirit sons and eventually the physical
universe, including the earth and man upon it. Job 38:4, 7; Psalm 103:19-21;
John 1:2, 3; Colossians 1:1.5,16.
Purpose
Or Plan...this was case of "brighter light." Russell talked about the Divine "Plan."
(see Eternal Purpose book, 1974)
Order of creation per WTS (proves that WTS believes that spirits live outside the physical universe)
Jesus
Angels
Physical Universe--Earth--Man
3 Jehovah did not create the earth as a testing ground to enlarge his family of
spirit sons in heaven, as taught by many churches of Christendom. He created it
with a definite purpose in mind, for it "to be inhabited." (Isaiah 45:18) God
created the earth for man and man for the earth. (Psalm 115:16) The entire globe
was to become a paradise, filled with righteous humans, who would cultivate it
and take care of it. Never was the prospect of eventually going to heaven held
out to the first human couple.-Genesis 1:26-28; 2:7, 8, 15.
Jehovah did not create the earth as a testing ground to enlarge his family of
spirit sons in heaven, as taught by MANY churches
Other than the Mormons (LDS), what other churches teach this?

Jehovah's Purpose Challenged
4 A spirit son of God rebelled and set out to thwart Jehovah's purpose, abusing
the divine gift of free will. He disturbed the peace that comes to all who
manifest loving submission to Jehovah's sovereignty. Satan led the first human
couple to embark on a course of independence from God. (Genesis 3:1-6) He did
not deny Jehovah's power, but he challenged His way of exercising sovereignty
and therefore His right to rule. Thus, the fundamental issue of Jehovah's
sovereignty came into focus here on earth, at the very dawn of mankind's
history.
Free will
A whole book probably could be written on the this concept but not in this review.
*** w01 5/15 p. 5 God's Permission of Suffering Nears Its End ***
However, was the fine gift of free will to be used without limits? In directions given to early Christians, God's Word answers: "Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God." (1 Peter 2:16) For the common good, there must be boundaries. Hence, free will was to be regulated by the rule of law. Otherwise, anarchy would result.
(Whose law? Whose interpretation of that law?)
What do other religions teach? Is this also a secular thought?
Independence from God--or from the WTS
His way...His right..but his name (see question 6)
What is the rule about capitalizing pronouns referring to God?
*** w57 11/15 p. 703 Questions from Readers ***
It is our policy to lower-case pronouns referring to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ in all our publications, with the exception that capitals are used when other pronouns in the sentence might make the meaning doubtful. If, for instance, both Jehovah and Jeremiah are mentioned in a sentence and then in that sentence the pronoun "he" occurs, the "h" would be capitalized if the pronoun were referring to Jehovah and it would be lower-cased if it referred to Jeremiah.
5 Bound up with that primary issue of universal sovereignty is a secondary issue
raised by Satan in the days of Job. Satan cast doubt on the motive of Jehovah's
creatures in submitting to Him and serving Him. Satan implied that they were
doing so for selfish reasons and that put to the test they would turn against
God. (Job 1:7-11; 2:4, 5) While raised in connection with a human servant of
Jehovah, this challenge also involved the spirit sons of God, even Jehovah's
only-begotten Son.
While raised in connection with a human servant of Jehovah, this challenge also involved the spirit sons of God
And where is the scriptural backing for this statement?
6 Faithful to his purpose and to the meaning of his name, Jehovah caused himself to become a Prophet and a Savior.* (Footnote: * The divine name literally means "He Causes to Be come." Jehovah can become whatever is necessary to fulfill his purpose.-Exodus 3:14, footnote.) He told Satan: "I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." (Genesis 3:15) By means of the Seed of his "woman," or the heavenly part of his organization, Jehovah would answer Satan's challenge and provide Adam's descendants with hope of deliverance and life.-Romans 5:21; Galatians 4: 26, 31.
"woman," or the heavenly part of his organization
Is the word 'organization' in the Bible?
*** w98 9/1 p. 8 Keep Safe as Part of God's Organization ***
The word "organization" does not appear in the Bible,
Where is the scriptural reasoning on this "woman" being an organization?
"The Sacred Secret of His Will"
7 In his letter to Christians in Ephesus, the apostle Paul beautifully explains
how Jehovah administers things to fulfill his purpose. Paul wrote: "He made
known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure
which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the
appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the
things in the heavens and the things on the earth." (Ephesians 1:9, 10)
Jehovah's glorious purpose is to bring about a united universe occupied by
creatures who lovingly submit to his sovereignty. (Revelation 4:11) His name
would thus be sanctified, Satan proved a liar, and the divine will accomplished
"as in heaven, also upon earth."-Matthew 6:10.
administration
"dispensation" in other Bibles and the term used by Russell. Makes it sound less like a government, doesn't it?
His name would thus be sanctified
For years the WTS taught that his name would be "vindicated."
8 Jehovah's "good pleasure," or purpose, would be fulfilled by means of "an
administration." Paul used a word that literally means "household management."
It refers, not to a government, such as the Messianic Kingdom, but to a way of
managing things.* (Footnote: * Paul's words show that the "administration" was
functioning in his day, whereas the Scriptures indicate that the Messianic
Kingdom was not established until 1914.) The wonderful way in which Jehovah
would administer things to accomplish his purpose involved a "sacred secret"
that would progressively be made known over the centuries.-Ephesians 1:10; 3:9,
footnotes.
"administration"...not to a government, such as the Messianic Kingdom
Yet implies it by mentioning those terms together in previous and later paragraphs.
Messianic Kingdom was not established until 1914
Actually 1878.
*** Proclaimers book chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus' baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King.
progressively be made known over the centuries
And who did he he reveal this to as the "faithful and discreet slave" between 100 and 1879 CE?
9 By means of a series of covenants, Jehovah gradually revealed how his purpose concerning the Seed promised in Eden would be fulfilled. His covenant promise to Abraham revealed that the promised Seed would come to earth in Abraham's lineage and would be the means whereby "all nations of the earth" would bless themselves. That covenant also intimated that others would be associated with the primary part of the seed. (Genesis 22:17, 18) The Law covenant made with fleshly Israel disclosed Jehovah's purpose to have "a kingdom of priests." (Exodus 19:5, 6) The covenant with David showed that the Seed would be the Head of a Kingdom to time indefinite. (2 Samuel 7:12, 13; Psalm 89:3, 4) Once the Law covenant led the Jews to the Messiah, Jehovah revealed further aspects of the fulfillment of his purpose. (Galatians 3:19, 24) Those humans who were to be associated with the primary part of the seed would form the foretold "kingdom of priests" and would be brought into "a new covenant" as the new "Israel," a
spiritual one.-Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-9.* (Footnote: * For a detailed discussion of these covenants involved in the outworking of God's purpose, see The Watchtower of February 1, 1989, pages 10-15.)
Series of covenants--Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, Solomon
"new covenant"
Only the 144,000; the great crowd of other sheep have no part in this per the WTS thus Christ is not their mediator.

10 In line with the administration of the divine purpose, the time came for the
foretold Seed to appear on earth. Jehovah sent the angel Gabriel to tell Mary
that she would give birth to a son who was to be called Jesus. The angel said to
her: "This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and
Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule as
king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom."
(Luke 1:32, 33) The identity of the promised Seed thus became clear.-Galatians
3:16; 4:4.
Administration of the divine purpose
Dispensation of the divine plan per Russell.
Why is "Seed" capitalized? Because it refers only to Jesus?
11 Jehovah's only-begotten Son was to come to earth and be tested to the limit. The perfect answer to Satan's challenge would be in Jesus' hands. Would he remain faithful to his Father? This involved a sacred secret. The apostle Paul later explained Jesus' role: "The sacred secret of this godly devotion is
admittedly great: `He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory."' (1 Timothy 3:16) Yes, by his unflinching integrity until his death, Jesus provided the definitive answer to
Satan's challenge. But other details of the sacred secret remained to be uncovered.
sacred secret--"mystery" in other Bibles
Other details--per the WTS?
"The Sacred Secret of the Kingdom of God"
12 During one of his preaching tours of Galilee, Jesus indicated that the sacred
secret was closely related to his Messianic Kingdom government. He told his
disciples: "To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom
of the heavens ["kingdom of God," Mark 4:11]." (Matthew 13:11) One aspect of
that secret involved Jehovah's selecting a "little flock" of 144,000 humans to
be associated with his Son as part of the seed, to reign with him in
heaven.-Luke 12:32; Revelation 14:1, 4.
Jesus indicated...related to his Messianic Kingdom government
Jesus used the word "government"?
One aspect...selecting...144,000
(1 John 5:1) Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one that caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one.
"Everyone" believing that Jesus is the Christ, not just 144,000
144,000 humans--only JWs per the WTS

13 Since humans were created to live on earth, "a new creation" by Jehovah was
required in order for some humans to go to heaven. (2 Corinthians 5:17) Speaking
as one of those chosen to share this exceptional heavenly hope, the apostle
Peter wrote: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for
according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled
and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you."-1 Peter 1:3,
4.
"a new creation"
Volume 6, Studies in the Scriptures, The New Creation, in 1904
http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/newcreation/nctitles.html
exceptional--doesn't that raise them above the great crowd?
14 Another part of the sacred secret with regard to the future Kingdom government was God's will to include non Jews among the small number of humans who would be called to reign with Christ in heaven. Paul explained this facet of Jehovah's "administration," or way of managing the fulfillment of his purpose: "In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news." (Ephesians 3:5, 6) The comprehension of this part of the sacred secret
was revealed to the "holy apostles." Similarly today, if it were not for the help of the holy spirit, we would not understand these "deep things of God."-1 Corinthians 2:10; 4:1; Colossians 1:26, 27.
future Kingdom government--where was 'government' in the Bible? Isn't kingdom enough?
small number--has this been established?
government...administration
comprehension...revealed to the "holy apostles"--by implication only to the FDS/GB/WTS
If it were not with the help of the holy spirit, we would not understand--without the WTS
*** w94 10/1 p. 8 The Bible-A Book Meant to Be Understood ***
Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.-John 6:68.
*** w91 9/1 pp. 18-19 Jehovah and Christ-Foremost Communicators ***
That faithful and discreet slave is represented today by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, which has as its publicity agent the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Most appropriately, that faithful and discreet slave has also been called God's channel of communication
15 "The hundred and forty-four thousand" seen standing with "the Lamb" on
heavenly Mount Zion are said to have been "bought from the earth," "bought from
among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb," Christ Jesus. (Revelation
14:1-4) Jehovah chose the first of his heavenly sons to become the primary part
of the seed promised in Eden, but why did he select Christ's associates from
among mankind? The apostle Paul explains that this limited number was "called
according to his [Jehovah's] purpose," "according to the good pleasure of his
will."-Romans 8:17, 28-30; Ephesians 1:5, 11; 2 Timothy 1:9.
"The hundred and forty-four thousand" seen standing with "the Lamb"
Literal or symbolic number?
*** w04 9/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost.
What if the 144,000 and the crowd are the same group?
How many Christians were there in the 1st century? How many partook of the emblems in 1925? 90,434. That only leaves 54,000 for the time from 33 to 1879 CE. and ten years before the "revealing" of the great crowd.
*** w55 6/1 p. 336 Part 11: Restoration of Theocratic Organization ***
The hands of the witnesses continued to be kept busy during this crucial year of 1925. For this year a peak of 90,434 was recorded as the attendance at the spring Memorial celebration.
16 Jehovah's purpose is to sanctify his great and holy name and vindicate his universal sovereignty. By his incomparably wise "administration," or way of managing things, Jehovah sent his firstborn Son to earth, where he was tested to the limit. Furthermore, Jehovah determined that the Messianic Kingdom government of his Son would include humans who had also upheld His sovereignty until death.-Ephesians 1:8-12; Revelation 2: 10, 11.
sanctify his...name and vindicate his universal sovereignty
*** w50 1/1 p. 15 Haggai Exhorts the Temple Builders ***
This for his name's sake, that his name might be vindicated
And after 1986 the light dawned that this was wrong but was not mentioned until 1995.
*** w95 5/15 p. 25 Flashes of Light-Great and Small (Part 2) ***
Similarly, for a long time, Witnesses spoke of the vindication of Jehovah's name. But had Satan called Jehovah's name into question? For that matter, had any of Satan's agents done so, as if Jehovah did not have a right to that name? No, not at all. It was not the name of Jehovah that was challenged and that needed to be vindicated. That is why the Watch Tower Society's recent publications do not speak of Jehovah's name as being vindicated. They speak of Jehovah's sovereignty as being vindicated and of his name as being sanctified. This is in keeping with what Jesus told us to pray: "Let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9)
"administration"....Messianic Kingdom government
17 Jehovah showed his great love for Adam's descendants by having his Son come to the earth and by selecting from among mankind those who would be the Son's joint heirs in the Kingdom government. How could that benefit others who have proved faithful to Jehovah, from Abel onward? Born slaves to sin and death, imperfect humans would need to be spiritually and physically healed and brought to perfection, in line with Jehovah's original purpose for mankind. (Romans 5:12) How comforting it is for all of those who look forward to everlasting life on earth to know that their King will show them love and kind understanding just as he did to his disciples during his earthly ministry! (Matthew 11:28, 29;
Hebrews 2:17, 18; 4:15; 7:25, 26) And how reassuring it is for them to realize that Christ's associate kingpriests in heaven were once men and women of faith who themselves contended with personal weaknesses and experienced life's challenges as we do!-Romans 7:21-25.
Abel onward--first JW per the WTS
CARROT--Everlasting life on earth
Christ's associate king-priests in heaven were ONCE men and women--sounds like they aren't going to men and women in heaven...that's right they are genderless, sexless in heaven.
Have you ever wondered why the 144,000 go from being imperfect people to immortal, perfect spirits in a twinkling of an eye and why the rest of humaniity needs 1,000 years?
Jehovah's Unfailing Purpose
18 We are now better able to understand the import of Paul's words to anointed Christians, as found at Ephesians 1:8-11. He said that Jehovah had made known to them "the sacred secret of his will," that they were "assigned as heirs" with Christ, and that they were "foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels." We perceive that this fits into Jehovah's marvelous "administration" of things for the fulfilling of his purpose. This also helps us to understand why only a few Christians attending the Lord's Evening Meal partake of the emblems.
Paul's words to anointed--have you ever been told that the NT is only for the anointed?
*** w74 6/15 p. 376 Serve with Eternity in View ***
Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life.
only a few Christians--only JWs
19 In the following article, we will see what the Memorial of Christ's death
means to those Christians whose hope is heavenly. We will also learn why
millions whose hope is to live forever on earth should be intensely interested
in what the Memorial symbolizes.
Christians--only JWs
Millions--only JWs
Live forever on earth--CARROT
Closing Comments
The number of anointed has not been decreasing much over the past 15 years considering that the WTS teaches that the number was filled in 1935. People born in 1935 would be 71 years old today and even assuming that a person was baptized at 6 in 1929, they would be 77 with only a few years left. How many of the 8,524 that partook are "real" or "genuine" anointed as the WTS describes them?
The new most recent GB members were born long after 1935. The current listing shows their ages. How many are "replacement" anointed?
John Barr - 92
Carey Barber - 100
Samuel Herd - 70
Geoffrey Jackson - 50
Theodore Jaracz - 80
Steven Lett - 56
Gerrit Lösch -63
Anthony Morris - 55
Guy Pierce - 70
David Splane - 61
Daniel Sydlik - 86
Hope things are going well. Spring is Monday...............and the International Speakers of French Only Day.
Love, Blondie
By Way of Review
- Why did Jehovah create the earth and put man upon it?
- Why was it necessary for Jehovah's only-begotten Son to be tested on earth?
- Why did Jehovah select Christ's associate rulers from among mankind?
Questions
1. Why will all congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses meet on April 12, 2006?
2, 3. (a) How did Jehovah proceed to create according to his purpose? (b) For
what purpose did Jehovah create the earth and mankind?
4. How was Jehovah's way of exercising sovereignty challenged at the dawn of
human history?
5. What secondary issue was raised, implicating whom?
6. How did Jehovah prove to be faithful to his purpose and to his name?
7. What purpose did Jehovah reveal by means of the apostle Paul?
8. What is the meaning of the word translated "administration"?
9. How did Jehovah progressively reveal the sacred secret of his will?
10, 11. (a) How did Jehovah reveal the foretold Seed? (b) Why did God's
only-begotten Son come to earth?
12, 13. (a) What is one aspect of "the sacred secret of the kingdom of God"? (b)
What was involved in Jehovah's selecting a limited number of humans to go to
heaven?
14. (a) How were non Jews involved in "the sacred secret of the kingdom of God"?
(b) Why are we able to understand these "deep things of God"?
15, 16. Why did Jehovah select Christ's associate rulers from among mankind?
17. Why can we be glad that Christ and his associate rulers once lived as
humans?
18, 19. Why are Paul's words at Ephesians 1:8-11 clearer to us, and what will be
considered in the following article?
 
SickofLies
SickofLies 10 years ago

 My favorite time of the week! Another great review!
 
sf
sf 10 years ago

"jehovahs" Watchtower Administrative Organization here on Earth

sKally
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

Well, I was snaffled in to the magazine review this week. I shuddered at the way they connected God's administration to their own, but I don't have the heart to pick it apart this week.
In relatively few congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, one or more in attendance will partake of the emblems. In many cases, however, no one present will partake.
Is it my imagination, or is their language getting stronger? Those numbers just aren't going down fast enough. The entire memorial program has become a sham.
 
Collegegurl
Collegegurl 10 years ago

I always enjoy reading your comments. My parents usually ask me every Sat. night if I've looked over the watchtower for tomorrw, and after reading your reviews I can always say yes, and this is much more interesting than just reading it on my own.
 
MerryMagdalene
MerryMagdalene 10 years ago

the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave
I can't help but wonder just how close-knit the anointed are...
Do any of them, other than their "representative" governing body, know each other by name?
How does the governing body represent them? Has anyone even asked them?
How were the members of the governing body chosen to represent them?
Do they all communicate with each other about what God is revealing to them as the light gets brighter?
Crazy. If that doesn't make your scam alert sound off, I don't know what will...
~Merry
 
uninformed
uninformed 10 years ago

Great work as usual Blondie.
What if anything do you do for memorial?
this is our first memorial away and I am really sad.
U
 
rocketman
rocketman 10 years ago

Potential converts or inactive and disfellowshipped JWs from the past 30 years who no longer attend meetings any other time or new people? ; What is your experience?
O Blonde One, another fine review. In answer to your question - In my experience, it was a combination of all of the above, namely df'd, inactive, and some potential converts, very few of whom converted. In fact, over the years such visitors to the Memorial were often criticized in conversations between fellow jws, being referred to in derogatory terms because they attended only one meeting per year. There was even a joke circulated about such people being like those in Christendom who showed up only at Christmas and/or Easter services.
 
searcher
searcher 10 years ago

Nice one Blondie. BTW, does anyone happen to know why they still hold the memorial? I seem to remember Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me until I return", I thought he 'returned' in 1914.
 
scout575
scout575 10 years ago

Blondie: I am slightly puzzled by your objections to JWs changing their minds about their understanding of the Bible. I would find this easier to understand if you, like me, are no longer a Christian, and no longer accept the Bibe as coming from god.
Its perfectly clear that Jesus' early followers also updated their religious beliefs. For example, despite having spent a number of years as Jesus' disciples, and having heard him preach his kingdom message many times, they still believed that "the kingdom of God should IMMEDIATELY appear." ( Luke 19:11 ) ( that they got this false impression from Jesus himself is another issue - Matt 16:28 ). Had someone, at that time, have asked those disciples; From where will the kingdom rule? They would have answered: 'Jerusalem'. ( Luke 19:11a - later UPDATED to, NOT Jerusalem, but "Heaven" - 2 Tim 4:18 ).
If the the disciples of Jesus who had actually spent years in his company, later had to update their beliefs on something as fundamental as from where the kingdom would rule, and when it would begin to rule, is it any surprise that Christians living nearly 2000 years later, would also make adjustments in their understanding of details regarding the so-called kingdom of god?
 
Gill
Gill 10 years ago

Thanks Blondie!
Don't you wonder what spin the WTBTS will put on it when NO ONE partakes of the emblems any more?
Surely that has to be an inevitability, in time. As a hundred years from 1914 comes and goes, and the WTBTS members begin to shrink. Then, virtually no one, finally NO ONE at all takes the emblems. Then! What still no Armageddon! Still NO ADMINISTRATION UNDER GOD'S RULE!
Craziness!
 
jgnat
jgnat 10 years ago

I would like to repeat, for emphasis, the yeartext, "Obey God as ruler rather than imperfect men" or something like that. Do even faithful JW's want to continue to worship the Watchtower leadership as if they are gods? It's high time they took up reading the bible straight, like a fine malt scotch.
 
ozziepost
ozziepost 10 years ago

Jehovah did not create the earth as a testing ground to enlarge his family of
spirit sons in heaven, as taught by MANY churches 
Other than the Mormons (LDS), what other churches teach this?
My first thought was the same, Blondie.
I'd sure be interested in the answer.
Ya know, if the question can't be answered, then the WTS are lying!!!!! Shock, horror!! Surely not!
 
blondie
blondie 10 years ago

Thanks, Sick of Lies.
My favorite time of the week!
It is not always easy to read the articles but knowing someone looks forward to the review makes the effort worthwhile.
Very inventive, sf.
Yes, the WTS said that if the money ran out they know they no longer had God’s backing. I wonder what they think as they downsize and sell off properties. If makes me think of their prediction about other religions, with the waters drying up?
Hey jgnat,
Is it my imagination, or is their language getting stronger? Those numbers just aren't going down fast enough.
They have had stronger articles outlining how a person knows they are anointed and who would likely not be anointed.


*** w03 2/15 p. 19 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***
True Christians in the first century were anointed by holy spirit. Many (
but not all ) of them were able to use one or more of the miraculous gifts of the spirit,
such as speaking in tongues. Therefore, it would not have been difficult for such individuals to know that they were spirit-anointed and should partake of the Memorial emblems.


Anointed Christians are absolutely sure that they have the heavenly calling. (and if the elders will make sure by ‘grilling’ them about why they partook)
God would not look with favor upon anyone representing himself as a person called to be a heavenly king and priest when he knew that he really did not have such a calling.
Jehovah executed the Levite Korah for presumptuously seeking the Aaronic priesthood

Why might some mistakenly assume that they have the heavenly calling? The death of a mate or some other tragedy might cause them to
lose interest in life on earth .Or they might desire the same destiny as a close friend who professes to be an anointed Christian. Of course, God has not assigned anyone to recruit others for this privilege. And he does not anoint Kingdom heirs by causing them to hear voic es with messages to that effect.

The false religious idea that all good people go to heaven might lead some to think that they have the heavenly calling. Hence, we need to guard against being swayed by past wrong views or other factors. For instance, some might ask themselves: ‘ Do I use medications that affect my emotions
? Am I inclined to have deep emotions that I could misjudge ?’

A few might ask themselves: ‘ Do I want to be prominent
? Am I ambitious for authority now or as a future joint heir with Christ?’ When Kingdom heirs were called in the first century, not all of them had responsible positions in the congregation

Some may have concluded that they have the heavenly calling because they have acquired considerable Bible knowledge
. But spirit anointing does not bring extraordinary understanding, for Paul had to instruct and counsel certain anointed ones.
Hi colleg7egurl,
My parents usually ask me every Sat. night if I've looked over the watchtower for tomorrw, and after reading your reviews I can always say yes,
So you are baptized and over 18 and your parents ask if you have "looked over" the watchtower? Sorry, but all I could think was if they asked you if you flushed when they saw you come out of the bathroom.
Yes, every word of the WT article is in each review, so you have answered truthfully.
I’m glad it is a help.
Greetings merry,
I can't help but wonder just how close-knit the anointed are...
Actually, the largest group of ‘anointed’ JWs in one location are at Bethel, including the GB. They know of each other and are fairly close compared to the non-anointed simply because of their once a year singled out status. As you get to congregations outside the Bethel circle, they are somewhat isolated. I noticed that in my last circuit that they all seemed to know who partook (good grapevine material after each memorial) and sought each other out at assemblies and conventions. Of course, any women are not noticed much. Imagine that some are 86, born in 1920, and baptized at 12 in 1932. The majority of the JWs then were anointed and they met together at one convention each year usually just 50,000 or so. As their numbers went down, they would have kept those contacts over the years. Many ‘anointed’ JWs do see themselves apart from other sheep. Well, I hope that wasn’t too disjointed. But it is not due to any superior Christian love that they are close-knit….more like an exclusive clique.
Don’t be sad, uninformed,
this is our first memorial away and I am really sad.
Remember being away from the memorial is not being away from Christ. He said wherever 2 or more or more of his followers gathered, there he would be. Leaving the WTS is not leaving Christ. I sent you a pm too.
Thanks, rocketman,
Long time no see.
over the years such visitors to the Memorial were often criticized in conversations between fellow jws, being referred to in derogatory terms because they attended only one meeting per year.
I have to say I was guilty of that. I saw people who had been part of the ‘ruling families’ of the congregation who came once a year for over 30 years and never attended anything else. People would fall over them, practically kissing their ring. Then I saw the sister with 3 children under 7 and no JW husband struggling who came to almost every meeting, ignored by the elders with their once a year gladhanding. I no longer attend (4 years) but just a start.
Searcher, good question.
I seem to remember Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me until I return", I thought he 'returned' in 1914.
It all depends on how the word ‘return’ is defined by the WTS Actually the NWT translates that word "arrives" at 1 Cor. 11:26 "until he arrives" said by Paul The WTS means when Christ returns with the angels to separate the sheep and the goats shortly after the GT starts (new light). They say that at that time the marriage of the Lamb will take place. That seems to imply that all the anointed will be in heaven. But the WTS hasn’t cleared up their timeline totally.Their comments are somewhat vague and ambiguous.
*** w04 3/15 p. 7 The Lord’s Evening Meal—How Observed? ***
Anointed Christians would commemorate Christ’s death "until he arrives." This observance would continue until Jesus’ arrival to receive his anointed followers into heaven by a resurrection to spirit life during his "presence." (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)
According to the WTS, that started in 1918 and continues as each individual one dies…..but how would they know when the last one died since even the WTS recognizes that not all that partake are "genuine"?
Hey, scout575, you may no longer accept the Bible, but you are still a JW at heart…but then the WTS doesn’t go by the scriptures but by their interpretation of them.
I might point out some cases where the WTS has flipped then flopped back
1.Superior authorities—secular governments
1.Superior authorities—God and Jesus
1962-now Superior authorities—secular governments
I wonder why the holy spirit didn’t help them to understand that subjection was "relative" in 1929?
Until 1967 Organ transplants—personal decision—conscience
1967-1980 Organ transplants—disfellowshipping offense
1980-now Organ transplants—personal decision
Will the people of Sodom and Gomorrah be resurrected?
http://www.cftf.com/comments/blinking.html
And that is not all of them.
Hi, Gill
Don't you wonder what spin the WTBTS will put on it when NO ONE partakes of the emblems any more?
Actually, I think the WTS is more concerned that the time won’t come when no one partakes any more because the start of the GT is tied to the marriage of the Lamb which implies that all the anointed have to be heaven. Can you imagine not being their for their own wedding. But they have that covered having had comments about "real" or "genuine" anointed.
Hi again, jgnat
Do even faithful JW's want to continue to worship the Watchtower leadership as if they are gods
JWs might argue that they don’t do this but when they have a question as to doctrine or policy, they don’t run to their Bible but to an elder and maybe the publications. They see them as having the control over their lives, current and future, not God. They are only concerned what humans might see them doing not God.
Yes, ozziepost, I thought that was a strange comment to make even from my long years (50) of attending meetings. I wonder who else the mean other than the LDS or independent local group.



Jehovah did not create the earth as a testing ground to enlarge his family of
spirit sons in heaven, as taught by MANY churches

Other than the Mormons (LDS), what other churches teach this?
 Good comments everyone, Blondie
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 10 years ago

I think the Congo found it hard going today....zzzzzzz!What with the Apostle Paul's legalese way of writing and the WT article . they seemed to give up.
BTW . When I was a dub I used to use Eph 1 to refer to the coming kingdom administration . The article refers to a Greek word but does not tell you that it is oikonomia , which does indeed refer to household management. If I were still doing all that, I would have learned something new..
 
xjwms
xjwms 10 years ago

Blondie
By far you are the best...................I look forward to these reviews, ..(like a religion)
How can they take a word like adminstration and twist and turn and make it work for themselves just blows my mind.
Today was the first time I could get to the office, .. as since friday I was sick, .. bad with gut aches oh well (feeling better now)
Havagreatsunday
 
MerryMagdalene
MerryMagdalene 10 years ago

Actually, the largest group of ‘anointed’ JWs in one location are at Bethel, including the GB. They know of each other and are fairly close compared to the non-anointed simply because of their once a year singled out status. As you get to congregations outside the Bethel circle, they are somewhat isolated. I noticed that in my last circuit that they all seemed to know who partook (good grapevine material after each memorial) and sought each other out at assemblies and conventions. Of course, any women are not noticed much. Imagine that some are 86, born in 1920, and baptized at 12 in 1932. The majority of the JWs then were anointed and they met together at one convention each year usually just 50,000 or so. As their numbers went down, they would have kept those contacts over the years. Many ‘anointed’ JWs do see themselves apart from other sheep. Well, I hope that wasn’t too disjointed. But it is not due to any superior Christian love that they are close-knit….more like an exclusive clique.
Thanks, Blondie. That was quite interesting, and I learned something new. We never had an anointed person in the Hall where I grew up, so I was always curious.
~Merry
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

John Barr - 92
Carey Barber - 100

I still think when these two die it will create a phsycological issue - no GB member born on or before 1914
 
Hawkeye
Hawkeye 10 years ago

Thanks again Blondie for another, great review!! I look so forward to these each week. Thank you again!
Hawkeye
 
scout575
scout575 10 years ago

Blondie: Thanks for your reply. You say: "I wonder why the holy spirit didn't help them to understand that subjection was realtive in 1929?" My answer would be the same answer that I would give to the following questions: "I wonder why Jesus said: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" ( Matt 16:28 )?" "I wonder why Jesus said: "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." ( Matt 10:23 )?" "I wonder why Jesus said: "Behold I come quickly." ( Rev 22:7 )?" "I wonder why the apostle Peter said: "The end of all things is at hand." ( 1 Peter 4:7 )?"
The answer that I wouuld give to your question, and to my questions would be: Maybe ALL people who have ever claimed to be helped by the so-called 'spirit of god', were all as mistaken as eachother.
 

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Comments You Will Not Hear at the March 19, 2006 WT Study (ADMINISTRATION)
by blondie 10 years ago 24 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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heathen
heathen 10 years ago

Man I think I'm going to be sick .... That's the same crap they try to force down everybodies throat every year . I understand that all christians have the hope of inheriting the kingdom of the heavens , the only difference between the GC and the 144k is that the 144k die as martyrs and are the first resurrection , REV 20:4-6 also they are granted authority for the millenial reign which is held within the city of new jerusalem or ( kingdom of the heavens) . Those involved with the second resurrection have the hope of living in paradise earth after the millenial reign and satan is let lose a second time .
 
stillAwitness
stillAwitness 10 years ago

What a load of dog poop to rummage through this week. And blondie's review was the faithful pooper scooper to the rescue!
 
searcher
searcher 10 years ago


 Thanks for the reply Blondie.

The WTS means when Christ returns with the angels to separate the sheep and the goats shortly after the GT starts (new light).

Surely that is what mainstream Christianity teaches?
Do they want it both ways, Jesus 'returned' in 1914 and will 'return' at the time of the GT?
Their comments are somewhat vague and ambiguous.

Not surprised
 
heathen
heathen 10 years ago

Do they want it both ways, Jesus 'returned' in 1914 and will 'return' at the time of the GT?
I know you were not a dubby searcher but yes that's what they say today. Christ returned invisibly in 1914 , gave the book publishing corporation the nod for FDS then will somehow return again during the GT to destroy all opposition to his rulership . They do not believe that jesus returns to earth but will always remain in heaven and rule from there invisibly. I think revelation is very obviously stating that christs return will be seen by everybody on earth when he comes to rule the millenial reign . REV 1:7
 
bennyk
bennyk 10 years ago

Of course, God has not assigned anyone to recruit others for this privilege.
Oh, really?!?!
What were those 1.- early 20. Century Christians doing, then? (Even according to the WTS.)
And if one should say times have changed, and there is now a different Hope offered to Christian believers (despite Eph. 4:4), Paul says: "Let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:6-9)
 

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Topic Summary
paragraph 14 "administration" linked to "kingdom government".
christians, those who hope to live in heaven, partake, whereas the majority,.
2 jehovah is a god of purpose.



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More of Mormon similarities...
by ringo5 10 years ago 16 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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ringo5
ringo5 10 years ago

Got this post from an ex-mormon website and the similarities to the JW way of thinking are always enlightening.




http://www.lds-mormon.com/explain.shtml
 I am thinking about posing these questions to my dub mother under the pretense that my Mormon friend at work has used versions of them in our discussions. Well he hasn't really, but he was probably thinking them....
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 10 years ago



 
Elsewhere
Elsewhere 10 years ago

Looks more like they've been drinking Drano!



 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago

I don't what Mormons you hang around with, but in all the years I've know many mormons, I've never heard even one of those seven listed. I've got Mormon friends and I know one active JW (and the experiences of dozens of EXs on this site), and let me tell you, the Mormons are NOTHING like the active dubs. Wacky doctrine, maybe....but as people (in general) you couldn't ask for anyone more genuine.
 
Honesty
Honesty 10 years ago

Wacky doctrine, maybe....but as people (in general) you couldn't ask for anyone more genuine.
JW's are genuine but they are still trapped in a cult just like the Mormons.
 
Apostate Kate
Apostate Kate 10 years ago

CHRISTIAN;There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5) MORMON; "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3) CHRISTIAN; God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15) MORMON; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345 CHRISTIAN; God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39) MORMON; "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10)
 "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38). CHRISTIAN; Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23) MORMON; "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115)
 "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547) CHRISTIAN; Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17) MORMON; Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation. (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)
From the CARM site because I don't have access to anything but what they have washed over online. I did go through my Mormon stage. After the Dubs I explored everything. Elder 1 and Elder 2 came by. They totally deny the "Gospel Through the Ages" quote. But I have heard it from several people who had the book this this quote was authentic. They are a lot like dubs in that they do not reveal EVERYTHING. They get you hooked by entensive love bombing, then slowly you work your way up to getting sealed in the Temple for all eternity with your spouse so when you die you get to populate your own planet. I always wanted to know what the holy underwear looks like but they get very offended when you ask about them.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago

JW's are genuine but they are still trapped in a cult just like the Mormons.
I don't know.... my JW friend plays 'games' all of the time, like 'shunning' me for a couple of weeks when they can't answer probing doctrinal questions. From the many accounts I've read here, 'game playing' is something the hardline JWs are good at.
 
Apostate Kate
Apostate Kate 10 years ago

I don't what Mormons you hang around with, but in all the years I've know many mormons, I've never heard even one of those seven listed. I've got Mormon friends and I know one active JW (and the experiences of dozens of EXs on this site), and let me tell you, the Mormons are NOTHING like the active dubs. Wacky doctrine, maybe....but as people (in general) you couldn't ask for anyone more genuine.
I always say; if I coulda chosen which cult to be raised in it would have been Mormon. That way I could have gotten an education before I split.
 
Honesty
Honesty 10 years ago

I always say; if I coulda chosen which cult to be raised in it would have been Mormon. That way I could have gotten an education before I split. Apostate Kate
At least they don't shun and judge a person like the genuine JW's do.
 
ringo5
ringo5 10 years ago

I don't what Mormons you hang around with, but in all the years I've know many mormons, I've never heard even one of those seven listed. I've got Mormon friends and I know one active JW (and the experiences of dozens of EXs on this site), and let me tell you, the Mormons are NOTHING like the active dubs. Wacky doctrine, maybe....but as people (in general) you couldn't ask for anyone more genuine.


 Sorry, I could have mentioned that this Mormon friend of mine is the most honest, trustworthy, friendly guy I know. HOWEVER, by your own admission, THEY HAVE WACKY BELIEFS (perhaps even wackier than JW's).
 Where did they get these wacky beliefs? Did my friend or your friends come up with these beliefs on their own? I'd really question my friends sanity if he came up with the idea of baptizing himself again and again for dead relatives. Or the idea that that they need to wear special white underwear to protect them from physical harm and from Satan. But alas it was from a "divine" source, a prophet no less. Most here would agree that otherwise intelligent people can be "brainwashed" when god or the divine is involved and allow themselves to have their own reasoning powers manipulated by that same "divine" source.
 That "divine" source uses the same form of pleading to keep their members in line as the WTS does for the witnesses. This was the point of the post. Perhaps your mormon friends might treat you differently if you yourself were a mormon at one point and asked the same questions about the authority of the "prophet" as you had the WTS? This is not to slam Mormons so much as it is to point out they use same false reasoning when it comes to defending their beliefs and leaders. Have you never gone to one of the many ex-mormon sites? The parallels seem obvious. I'd be curious to know if you've ever tried really questioning the validity of their beliefs? See how long you can do that before you'll hear them use a form of this- "When the Prophet speaks the debate is over"...
 
looking_glass
looking_glass 10 years ago

I think it depends on who you know. I have a close LDS friend and her family has shunned her because she is dating a non-LDS. I asked her why and when she explained it to me, I really thought I was talk'n to a JW who was dating a non-JW. Also, the special underwear thing is strange if you ask me. I think all fundamentalist religions are goofy. They have their thing, JW''s have their, 7th Day have theirs. And as for JWs, I still have active JW friends who are still very close friends of mine, no one has sold me down the river over a guilty conscious. These are people I have known since I was a baby and they have backed me and helped me out. So blanket statements only apply for the person who uses the blanket. So my blanket statement is all religions are goofy and all extermists regardless of their religion are goofy.
 
robhic
robhic 10 years ago

On the national news yesterday on TV, it had a story on Mormons. It said that Mormon is the most rapidly growing religion in the US. It showed some bicycle riders and a few friendly faces but didn't really get in-depth.
I found the growth rate interesting. I guess people like a mystery!
Robert
 
mdb
mdb 10 years ago

I always wanted to know what the holy underwear looks like but they get very offended when you ask about them
Here are your underwear... notice the Freemasonry "rule, square, and compass" stitched into them.
 
greendawn
greendawn 10 years ago

I wouldn't trust anyone that is under the strong influence of any cultic religion, and indeed the Mormons have some ideas that are more wayward than those of the dubs.
The common denominator is that both were founded by masons and they are therefore masonic creations.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 10 years ago

The similarities run high for one major reason. Both religions continue to call for submission and obedience among the followers no matter what. Everything the religion does is part of Gods plan, not mans. Such groups find ways that make them "special" and then use such things to keep their followers from going anywhere else. "Where else would you go?". It's a classic case of mind controll.
I also must add that many religion organizations, political organizations, commercial organizations, ect. all do it. The mormons and the JW's are just more obvious examples. Of course, believe it or not there are others out there that are even worse.
 
Dr Jekyll
Dr Jekyll 10 years ago

Shallow i know but can someone explain to me the reasoning behind having holy underwear?
 
ringo5
ringo5 10 years ago

Shallow i know but can someone explain to me the reasoning behind having holy underwear?





 Also they must wear these are the rest of their lives [earthly lives] and they represent the garment given to Adam in the garden of Eden.

 Really just pagan folklore being passed off as divine instruction that adds to the mystery that appeals to people I suppose.... http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/garments.html
 

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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


What would your views be on Mormons?
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?
Just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two....
Evanescence
 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago

Here on P.E.I there are only a few mormons! So I anyway only see them every so many years!
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 10 years ago


There are a lot of Mormons doing mission work here in our area at times.
I always speak with them at the door when they show up - I think it would be odd if the witnesses would bump into them on the street. I remember seeing them when out in the ministry - but never met at the same door.
I have now eliminated Jw's as having the truth - I don't think the mormons are much closer.
Jeff
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 10 years ago


What would your views be on Mormons?
I would seek out their help and recommendations if I was in the market for a new bike.
Rub a Dub
 
TD
TD 10 years ago


There's lot's of both (JW's & LDS) in my area. I've worked with both. (at once) When it comes to doctrine, they fight likes cats and dogs, but under the skin, they're much more alike than they realize. Pardon the expression, but they're both little piglets suckling from the same sow.
Things they have in common:
1. An aging and all too fallible leadership that claims a special relationship with God and on that basis, considers itself above reproach.
2. An idealized view of their church history that is soundly contradicted by their own period literature.
3. A view of ancient history that is soundly contradicted by archeology.
4. A belief that they are the modern-day restoraton of "true worship"
5. A belief that they are somehow "better" than members outside their faith.
6. A persistent belief that global cataclysm is only a few years away at most.
 
Alana
Alana 10 years ago


I remember once many moons ago, when I was still an active JW, I was at my good friend's house and two nice Mormon boys made the ill-fated decision to knock on the door. My friend's husband was just starting to attend meetings and his friend (a jerk-like elder) was also visiting. The guys let the Mormon boys in and at first acted interested, then spun it around to try to witness to them. They made the poor boys squirm a bit in their questions and they if it wasn't a question to which they had a prepared comment, they were truly lost.
I remember my friend and I staying back in the kitchen and thinking how mislead those poor boys were and how spiritual our guys were.......YIKES!! Looking back, those boys were no different than most of the JWs......they prepare their script for the door-to-door work and if approached with deeper questions or 'attacks' to their faith, they can be speechless.
My step-daughter's ex-boyfriend was a Mormon and she started going with him to some church activities and we could tell he had been 'witnessing' to her and it had me worried, as I felt she was too young (16) to be making such life changing decisions such as leaving her church to convert. He was, however, a sweetheart and was a sincere, hardworking boy seemingly with high morals. So, I have nothing against him personally or his family....I just worried about her getting caught up in the religion solely for the boy. He is getting ready to go on his Mission after graduation and they recently broke up.
I know that we have had Mormons on this board and I don't mean anything bad toward them, but my own opinion from what I have experienced and read about LDS church, I feel they are just as 'cult-like' and mislead as JWs. Good people for the most part, but just some 'out there' beliefs.
We live out in the boondocks, so I doubt if they would want to venture out to our place. Oh, I just thought about some past JW friends of mine who moved out to Salt Lake City many years ago. They came back after a couple of years, but I remember he saying that their territory was about 95% Mormon (or at least that it felt like it), so Field Service wasn't very productive.
~"Alana"
 
tetrapod.sapien
tetrapod.sapien 10 years ago


what would your view on the eastern orthodox church be?
because i seem to remember there being a bunch of childish disagreements between them and the catholics. you know, the great schizm of 1054 AD ( - 1450's) where each of the churches excommunicated each others followers?
just wondering if that ever gets in the way of regular businesss for catholics? you know, running into eastern orthodox people when you're out warring against other catholics?
TS
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


I remember my friend and I staying back in the kitchen and thinking how mislead those poor boys were and how spiritual our guys were.......YIKES!! Looking back, those boys were no different than most of the JWs......they prepare their script for the door-to-door work and if approached with deeper questions or 'attacks' to their faith, they can be speechless.
Exactly! Proof of the point: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/98798/1708287/post.ashx#1708287
OldSoul
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago


I didn't know this was a Mormon forum too.I'm only joking. But I'm not when I say there are many a mormon who lists and writes in this forum. How Do i know this? Simple, the writings. I, too, lived in Nauvoo Illinois where the first main Mormon belief came up. Oh I know, they started in Missouri too, but Joe Smith was run out of town. But in Nauvoo Smith established the religion the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But then again Brigham Young altered the church when Young went to create Salt Lake City, after Smith's death.
What's the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They are a group that broke off from Brigham Young and settled in Missouri. Oh yeah...they don't like being called Mormons. Or at least my 12th grade high school girl friend told me. She belonged to the Organized group.
 Anyway they are a group of good folks, that includes the jehovah witnesses.What do they have in connon? Easy answer......" But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are parishing, whose minds the god of htis age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ , who is the image of God, should shine on them."(2Corinthians 4: 3,4)
 Oh yeah..one more thing in common...."knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."(2Peter 1:20)
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I quite like them
 
daystar
daystar 10 years ago

Hey, I'm all for any religion that seeks to enslave the masses. Makes them easier to herd.
 
Darth Yhwh
Darth Yhwh 10 years ago


I’ve had Mormons stop by my doorstep twice now in the last two months or so. The first time I just told them that I wasn’t interested. I was expecting JW’s and was looking forward to giving them a thrashing so I was a little disappointed when I found out they were Mormons.
The second time they came by I asked them all kinds of doctrinal questions. They handled my questions quite well, which led me to believe that these particular two gents were well versed in their religion. They left me with a pamphlet that tells the story of how the church got founded. It felt like reading and looked like WBTS rhetoric. The boys were nice and I enjoyed our chat however I tend to agree with TD regarding some of the similarities that he’s mentioned.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

I had a study going with a lovely young mother of 6. Her husband was very abusive and kept her and her children literally boarded up in her house a good bit of the time. In fact, I thought her house might be abandoned the first time I called on her. Pretty soon after I started calling on her, the Mormons started as well. She was able to easily refute them with information from me. But she also saw through them and would go over what they were trying to teach her, each week with me, after our study. I hope that Linda never did get baptized. She ended up with 14 children, the last time I called on her.
 
Cygnus
Cygnus 10 years ago


Very many moons ago when I was about 17 I was engaged in the door to door ministry of Jehovah's Witnesses with a pioneer fella who was a couple of years older than me and a passer-by asked us if we were affiliated with the "Joseph Smith movement." We answered, "Uh, no sir, we're JWs." "Ah," was all he said as he went on his way. I and my buddy looked at each other and verbally wondered who this Smith guy was.
Flash forward 8 years and I've recently left the JWs and on the advice from the congo that I was spiritually endangering her, my wife left me. A couple of Mormon dudes....er... elders knocked on my door. I asked if they had a Book of Mormon I could have. They didn't, and said they'd come back with one. So we made an appointment for them to make a return visit (  ) and they gave me a free BoM, and asked if we could read a portion from within. I said sure, and it was several verses about some guy traveling far into the Americas and by faith was led to some place and did this and that and the other thing and when we finally finished they asked if they could say a prayer. I said sure, so off they went with "Heavenly Father, we thank you for blah blah blah and may Jason here have his eyes opened to the truth of the Book of Mormon blah blah blah Amen!" And I said "Amen" as well. Then they asked if I felt any different. Apparently at this point the Holy Spirit is supposed to envelope a person and guide him towards becoming fascinated with Mormonism. I didn't feel anything, other than "this is getting weird." So I politely said No and I had expected their visit to be brief as I had something else planned very soon (in other words, I kicked them out so I could read the newspaper online and get drunk).
Other than meeting the occasional Mormon online and doing work for certain customers who were clearly Mormon (they all have the same picture of Jesus in their homes, as well as 18 kids), that's been the extent of my dealings with members of the LDS church.
 
tdogg
tdogg 10 years ago


Well, since I live in the capitol of Zion as they call it, I tend to have mixed feelings. I have met the full spectrum range of Mormon types. Yes, they can be easily categorized due to years of genetic restriction. Do you not believe me? Well come spend some time here and you will see for yourself.
I play basketball once a week at a Mormon church with a very nice group of guys. Some of the most amazing people I have met are LDS, some are downright evil. Most of the time they do not bother you but there are times one just wants to scream and slap that goofy smile off their face and say "ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME!" But we don't.
Mormons in groups are very annoying. Therefore if you work somewhere with a high percentage of Mormons you will be in for some aggravation, especially if those in charge are Mormons. Church hierarchy will take over in the workplace.
Yes when I was a JW publisher we ran into Mormons about say, every other house on average. In some neighborhoods more, some less. Few wanted to argue with us most were very nice and just didn't want to be bothered (like everyone else who's doorbell we rang). If you run across the missionaries while in door to door work they probably would not engage you in a dogmatic debate. They would be kind, exchange pleasantries, ask a few questions and smile that goofy smile, then be off on their way. Most are much kinder and far less depressed than JW's. But then, a mission is only 2 years long whereas door to door goes on and on and on and on and...well you get my point.
Little known fact: Mormons from outside Utah behave much differently than Mormons raised in Utah. I generally prefer Mormans who were not raised in Utah. Perhaps its the "Mormons in groups are annoying" axiom at work here.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago


Mormons from outside Utah behave much differently than Mormons raised in Utah

That's funny. The Mormons here in Arizona will roll their eys and use the expression "Utah Mormon" almost like it's a swear word
 
mormon 4 life
mormon 4 life 10 years ago

hi every1 we lds are very good people & we are ot like the jw's
 
under74
under74 10 years ago

mormon 4 life--I don't doubt that there are very good people in LDS...in my experience with mormons however (including family members) the same kind of narrow minded thinking prevails. Doesn't mean that all mormons are the same. I know that some mormon people are more open to change unlike most JWs HOWEVER for me the beliefs of both Mormons and JWs are too similiar and...sorry-- but crazy. Both religions sprouted from the same seed and although the LDS has gone main stream I still will think of it as closely related to JWs....but don't take this as a slight against all mormon people. I don't think all JWs are awful...just misguided.
 
googlemagoogle
googlemagoogle 10 years ago

i've seen a lot of morons in my congregation.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


hi every1 we lds are very good people & we are ot like the jw's
Hello Mormon 4 life  what are your basic beliefs? I heard a bit about mormons, but I never get them to my door  Heard they are a nice bunch though.... Evanescence
 

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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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free2beme
free2beme 10 years ago

If I became a Morman, I would see it as digging myself out of one trap, only to fall into another. Only difference, the Morman's at least think it is okay to have a decent enough job to make money ... as long as you pay back 10%. Studying the Morman faith and getting any honest answers from their believers is hard. Morman's will not tell you what is really happening in the faith, unless you are a "true" believer. You think the Witnesses have secrets, you haven't seen nothing yet, until you unwrap the LDS package.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


yeah I have heard that its hard to understand the LDS faith, and in this case its hard to get any clear answers out of the mormons and the ex-mormons.....
Evanescence
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya Ev.
Here's our stock answer of core belief's
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Here's my short list to add:
You must have a personal relationship with God and a conviction of the faith ('flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you') - we call it a testimony.
God/ Jesus/Holy Ghost - 3 seperate people. God and Jesus have bodies.
Jesus is Jehovah - God of old testament - it was His people He taught and died amongst.
Adam and Eve are honoured for giving us our turn on earth and the chance to return back to God after making our own mistakes and making our own way.
Free agency - the ability to make moral choices.
LDS church is a restoration and literal kingdom of God restored by God to a prophet not via well meaning individuals with a particular take on the bible.
Priesthood only given by someone who received it from somone who can trace their line of authority literally to Jesus Christ (via Peter, James and John)
Living prophet.
Continous new revelation and scripture.
Word of Wisdom - our health code (no alcohol, tea, coffee, non-medicinal drugs, eat healthy, look after your body.)
Tithes and Offerings. 10% of income or increase to church plus additional offerings as required plus once a month a fast and a donation to our welfare program.
Welfare program - money and food for members in need in return for work. Welfare program also provides emergency relief and humanitarian assistance worldwide.
Family Home Evening - Monday night is 'sacred' no activities outside family allowed/encouraged. Night for family to be together and have lesson/fun/quality time.
Temple - opportunity to do baptism for dead (ie we believe everyone who ever lived must be baptised), sealings (families are sealed together forever - so your kids will always be your kids , your spouse is always your spouse, all way back to Adam making us one big eternal family)
Resurrection - everyone to be resurrected - no more 'isms' at that time i.e. no 'mormonism' Everyone to be rewarded according to what they wanted. If people wanted to live by doing bad things then they will receive a beautiful paradise, if people wanted to be good but didn't want to accept the sacrifice of Jesus they will receive an even better place but again all sealings gone, finally everyone who accepts Jesus both here and in the afterlife gains eternal life (meaning with God and knowing all God has and becoming as God.) No mormons only going to 'heaven' malarky. Side note everyone not accepting Jesus payment for sins (including agony in Gethsemane) have to pay for it themselves - called pains of Hell. One small sub group - those who know Jesus and have no more faith and then turn away from him, deny the Holy Ghost - cast out to 'outer darkness' where they will rule over satan and his angels (by dint of a body - they still get resurrected)
Relationship to all other faiths - good people are in all of them and have a bright reward but they don't have the priesthood therefore LDS have to do the baptism and sealing on their behalf when they die - same way that Jesus had to die for us - lds consider this a service for all mankind - not a make everyone a mormon ploy (no 'ism' after death.)
Hope that's ok. And for those who keep alluding to 'dark secerets' I hope anyone whose read my post history will know that as far as I'm concerned , as long as you have a bit of respect, I'll tell you anything. I have read all our secrets and none of them are 'oh my gosh - its all false' things.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago



 Thankyou very much Qcmbr that was all indeed very interesting
Hope that's ok. And for those who keep alluding to 'dark secerets' I hope anyone whose read my post history will know that as far as I'm concerned , as long as you have a bit of respect, I'll tell you anything. I have read all our secrets and none of them are 'oh my gosh - its all false' things.
Why do LDS have "secrets?"
I don't hear much from the Mormons, I don't get them to my door  what are you guys like door-to-door?
Qcmbr, what brings you to this forum?
Evanescence
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Q:
 I have to admit that you're the most candid of LDS I've had the pleasure to exchange comments with, even though you do wriggle around a bit, sometimes
Just to pick out a few of your beliefs that most here will find unusual:
1.The father has a body but the Holy Spirit hasn't yet got one
2.You use the Trinitarian language of "godhead" but don't actually mean that at all
3.New Jerusalem will come down to the good old US of A
4.You believe in apostolic succession, like the Catholics, but see a 2000 year jump from Peter to Joseph Smith, with little but apostasy in the intervening years
5.You believe that Joseph Smith's "adapted" King James Version of the bible is more accurate than that used by churches, not because of textual analysis but because of divine revelation to him. Because of this you'd likely hold the Book of Mormon in higher regard than a church KJV bible
6.Whatever you say about people not needing to be LDS to be "saved", you do hold that they will have to be LDS if they are to reach the highest reaches of the after-life promises of God
7.You baptise all on behalf of the dead, regardless of whether or not they wished this or have previously been baptised by the Christian church, in the hope that they will learn about LDS and convert in your form of purgatory
8.Those who deny the Holy Ghost are those who have been members of the LDS faith and have left and "apostasised", and hence are condemned to "hell" for all eternity, hence keeping the flock in line
Feel free to elaborate, or to point out where I may have unwittingly misrepresented you. I am more than happy to have pointed out where I have erred.
 
dontomas
dontomas 10 years ago


This is one of the best articles on Mormonism I ever read and is right on the mark in my humble opinion.....I don't think this magazine is around anymore but its articles survive on a few websites....link follows.
http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ahp.htm
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Eva-
what are you guys like door-to-door?
I've only had a couple come up to my door. All young males in the standard uniform. Polite mostly....actually the last time a couple of them came up to my door I had my neice over and right before hand I had 2 calls with people with emergencies and the back patio was starting to flood (rain) because the drain was full of leaves....so I went back there to clean it out.....my neice starts yelling someone's at the door and by the time I get to where I can see the door I realize she's already opened it---she was told not to open the door to strangers!!...anyway I was flustered and there were 2 young guys there. One of them asks if he could give me some pamphlet and I'm like "NOOOOOOOOOOO (whiney voice), that's the last thing I need right now." Anyway, this kid asked if he could help me with anything...I'm sure he could tell I was very very busy and wet. I declined... but he seemed like a nice boy. Much more then the mormon boys I've seen on the bus in San Francisco (Filmore Street)....is it really that hard for 20 year old males to give up their seats to old women? Anyway...just thought I'd tell ya a story....
Q- What do you think about the Burned-Over District?
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago


Mormons suffer the same problem as Jehovahs Witnesses. They are burned by their own prophetic history. Check this out:
Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his diary:
"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph [Smith] the Seer, and he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see" - Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol 2, p 166, emphasis added

Here's Brigham Young (second president and "prophet" of the LDS church) on the inhabitants of the moon and the sun:
"I will tell you who the real fanatics are: they are they who adopt false principles and ideas as facts, and try to establish a superstructure upon, a false foundation. They are the fanatics; and however ardent and zealous they may be, they may reason or argue on false premises till doomsday, and the result will be false. If our religion is of this character we want to know it; we would like to find a philosopher who can prove it to us. We are called ignorant; so we are: but what of it? Are not all ignorant? I rather think so. Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed "the man in the moon," and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in its first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celestialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then. Christ is the light of this planet." - Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, p.271, emphasis added

Joseph Fielding Smith, apostle and later president of the church (as well as prophet, seer and revelator) said, in his book Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, pp 88-89 (1954, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City) about the sun as a "celestial" body:
"It is my opinion that the great stars that we see, including our sun, are celestial worlds; at least worlds that have passed on to their exaltation or other final resurrected status. This is in conflict, of course, with the teachings of scientific men, who declare that the sun is losing its energy and gradually cooling off and will eventually be a dead world. I do not believe the Lord has any such thing in his plan. The Lord lives in 'everlasting burnings' we are informed. President Brigham Young has said that this earth when it is celestialized will shine like the sun, and why not?
"'If the people could fully understand this matter,' he said, 'they would perceive that it is perfectly reasonable and has been the law of all worlds. And this world, so benighted at present, and so lightly esteemed by infidels, ... when it becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the Son. It will not then be an opaque body as it now is, but it will be like the stars of the firmament, full of light and glory; it will be a body of light. John compared it, in its celestialized state, to a sea of glass.' (Journal of Discourses 7:163)" [emphasis in original]

Most rank and file LDS don't know their own history, and a little cognative dissonence steps in when shown. All to farmiliar, IMHO.
steve
 
blondie
blondie 10 years ago


The Mormons that I have talked to also have some disturbing ideas:
Adam and Eve were given 2 conflicting laws from God.
1) To multiple and fill the earth
2) Not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad (including the knowledge of human procreation)
In order to fulfill one, they had to break the other, that God never intended the earth to be a permanent place for humans but merely a testing ground for spirits to come down from heaven and live a life that either gains them higher privileges as a spirit when they return or eternal death as neither a human or a spirit.
Second that they don't believe in a trinity but that Jesus is Jehovah. (only 2 thus they don't believe in a trinity).
Third, that the Book of Mormon and other LDS holy books supersede the Bible comparing it to the NT superseding the OT.
I always felt that leaving the WTS and becoming a LDS would be like jumping out of the pan into the fire.
Blondie
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago

In fairness, if I were to choose a cult, I'd prefer the Mormons over the JWs
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Wow - lots of questions - I've been to work in between my last post: OK I'll try and address each point with one caveat - I'm just a numpty - I'm not an official spokesperson for the church (lds.org for the public face). If I make mistakes blame me.
Why do LDS have "secrets?"
I don't hear much from the Mormons, I don't get them to my door what are you guys like door-to-door?
Qcmbr, what brings you to this forum?
Ev. LDS have secrets for two reasons:
1/ Some things are 'official' secrets and these are in regard to sacred things such as the temple. Though as many will happily point out the secrets are about as well hidden as the Eiffel Tower if you dig around the internet.
2/ The other secrets are the historical parts of the church's formation regarding such practises as polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Steve's moon men, Adam God theory, finacial practises, masonry, dannites, mountain meadows massacre etc.. these are the parts of lds history that the church doesn't dwell because 1/ There are few facts (take the moon men quote from the journal - that statement has no record in official church history or as church doctrine ) 2/ The church was in the wrong (and before anyone get's excited the only time I ever heard anything like this was one of our greatest prophets lamenting the fact that the priesthood should have gone to all men sooner and it was our failure that it hadn't) 3/ Current revelation supercedes it therefore we don't argue over it anymore (polygamy is not practised currently therefore anyone doing it is excommunicated however, the practise itself is only right or wrong depending on the commandment at the time - not inherantly so.)
As for door to door - depends on who you get - some are arrogant, cheeky, immature but the majority of our missionaries are happy, fun loving and genuinely pleased to be there. They aren't trying to scare anyone into church - just share the gospel and baptise everything that moves.
All in all the LDS church has done something incredible. It started with the purpose of building Zion and has done a pretty smart job so far.
LT - your points - spot on.
You use the Trinitarian language of "godhead" but don't actually mean that at all - we use the word Godhead to mean 'group' as in a united threesome, united in purpose in testifying of each other.
Whatever you say about people not needing to be LDS to be "saved", you do hold that they will have to be LDS if they are to reach the highest reaches of the after-life promises of God - but LDS is just a moniker. If we dropped that and said 'Christian' I think we'd agree..? Like I said all we really claim different from anyone else is real authority in the form of the Priesthood - and just as baptism was repeated in the bible so a little double dipping helps here:) Theis ties in with the idea of everyone joing the lds faith in purgatory - well no not quit. The LDS faith doesn't exist in (paradise;) just those who believe in Jesus and those who don't (yet). Baptism is required, just as birth and death are, to complete the plan. Everyone must be baptised regardless of faith ('Except a man be born of the water and the spirit he can in nowise inherit the Kingdom of God') No one else is doing this for all of mankind - how can any 'christian' church believe that it is following God's plan if it doesn't have backup for those who never get to hear the message?
U74 - Burned-Over District. I think that only once in America's history could teh LDS church have ever made such an appearance and grown the way it did. I think this time in America's history was a golden age and certainly was partially responsible for Joseph Smith's question ' Which of all the churches is true?'

Steven - men on the moon. It is official church doctrine that the universe is inhabited by life on countless worlds. In all teh quotes given th eofficial church doctrine about teh Celestialisation of the earth and the inhabitation of the universe are alluded to - the moon part however, is their personal opinion. Who knows:) Its in all likelhood cobblers but you have to make a distinction between doctrine and opinion (i.e. all you Christians - do you keep your women quiet in the church, make them wear long hair?) Doctrine leads to action, opinion is fairly meaningless. If I as Elder's Quorum President claim that we never went to the moon - my church position does not lend it any weight - same with our prophets. They are not in some constant state of rapturous revelation. Good point about LDS not knowing their own history! Our history is one of the richest most biblical ever - filled with incredible miracles, angelic visitations, new scripture, intrepid escapes and our own exodus.
Blondie, exactly right about the conflicting laws. Puts a whole new slant on Adam and Eve. The whole plan hinged on Eve making the decision to leave the presence of God and on Adam being smart enough to follow. They are two of my heros. God wants us to grow on our own, we could never truly be free when the only two laws that could be broken involved eating fruit and making babies. That is why we call it a transgression. The law had to be broken.
Our heirarchy for doctrine is as follows:
1/ Word of the current prophet (i.e. you wouldn't have disbelieved Moses if he said something different to what he wrote yesterday.)
2/ Next doctrine of the church. Built up from words of modern and ancient prophets , including certain interpretations of bible scripture (an kind of example is the Articles of Faith I gave above).
3/ Book of Mormon (history of a group of Israelites), Doctrine and Covenants (our current church handbook of revelations) and Pearl of Great Price (additional scripture from the bible period) - simply becasue they aren't translated by scholars but by prophets.
4/ The Bible last - not because it is least respected , simply because it underpins everything else, it is our final yardstick and where it is internally in discord or is difficult to understand we then turn to our additional scripture / words of prophet for clarification.
Sorry that took so long.
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago


qcmbr, thanks for the reply.
Could you explain something to me. How do LDS view the opinions of their prophets? Those ones from outside the standard bible books. Do you take them with a pinch of salt, or are they seen as gospel?
steve
 
oldflame
oldflame 10 years ago

I used to be a mormon when I was a teenager, it is as far fetched as the JW's let me tell you......
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


In connection with "godhead", I've seen Missionaries point to the Bible and "Doctrine and Covenant" and let the householder believe what they will concerning LDS teaching on the Trinity. 'Tis a little dishonest, you surely have to agree?
Regarding double-dipping, I was baptised in water as a JW and again in Spirit as a believer and again in water as a Christian. Dang, I'd be permanently wrinkled if I listened to everyone!!!
If my great-great-great-grand-children were to become LDS you'd expect them to be immersed on my [post humous] behalf, even though I was baptised as a Christian, wouldn't you?
Besides, is there no water in limbo/paradise, given that there's a lake before the throne in Revelation?
Thanks for your candor regarding the "hierarchy of doctrine". The WTS ultimately put the Watchtower above the Bible, but they'd never admit it...
 
TD
TD 10 years ago





One of the most amazing things to me about the BOM (No offense to anyone) is the idea of a widespread culture that produced durable objects vanishing without a trace. It doesn't matter if you are atheist; with the Bible you are at least dealing with real places that you can go and see today and real cultures whose artifacts endure.
The Mount of Olives, the pool of Siloam and Hezekiah's tunnel, the Wailing Wall -- these are all things you can see today. Pottery, tilework, ceramics, gold jewelry and bronze-age armor, tablets and steles, masonry structures --- we have these from all the major civilizations mentioned in the Bible. We have so many of these things in fact that you could spend the rest of your life examining these antiquities and still not see them all.
The problem we have today, of not knowing what to do with our "things" once we've made them is nothing new. This is because some things are durable. They don't rust, they don't disolve, they don't burn, they don't dry up and blow away. Not only do they not vanish naturally, some of them, once created cannot be eradicated without a trace even intentionally. For example, once the molecular structure of clay has been altered in a kiln, how do you get rid if the resulatant ceramic? Ceramic is waterproof, impervious to most chemicals and it will survive any temperature you can devise. It can be broken, true but all you get are smaller pieces of ceramic. If you break those you get still smaller pieces, ad infinitum
The BOM describes cultures similar to those that inhabited ancient Mesopotamia:

Abinadi standing before King Noah has been variously rendered by Mormon artists. I've never seen one that is not full of durable objects. Copper alloy armor, gold jewelry, masonry, ceramic tiles, you name it. Personally, I don't see any reason to believe that such a civilization ever existed.
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 10 years ago


the moon part however, is their personal opinion. Who knows:smile:
Oh, come on!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Dan - I personally don't think there are men on the moon however, I don't think we've ever been there either. I like the odd conspiracy theory.
LT - it is very 'tempting' to be sparing with the full truth as you describe but having done my own share of missionary work there is one issue that I used to come up against - time (rather than dishonesty). Unlike JWs we tend to go for a baptism as soon as the individual feels the spirit - a lot more spontaneous approach than the longer JW book study approach (and I'm not saying that LDS speed is better) the point of suggesting baptism isn't at the full understanding of doctrine, its the point that born agains would probably allude to as the point of feeling saved - the witness from God of truth (in all honesty I doubt most christians know all the doctrine at the point when they convert?). I've baptised plenty of people that didn't understand the full doctrine but did actually know Jesus is the Christ. It's more often a balance between constantly saying , 'no - youre wrong this is what you should believe' and actually saying 'OK God says its true, saddle up and we'll teach you how to ride - we'll cover the theory of how to do it along the way.'
On the other hand , I'm still learning the doctrine and I've been a member all my life (and what I mean by that is despite knowing the textbook stuff I'm a bazillion miles away from actually practisisng it fully - I'm a bad lad;)
TD the widespread culture thing is definately a thorn in the side of LDS apologetics - I'll post some info in a sec - I'll just switch browsers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago


Some Cultural Issues in the book of Mormon: Forget the art used to illustrate the BOM , it's just guesswork and certainly not a statement of how it really was.
1/ No Israelite/semitic dna found in American Indians - in fact almost exclusively asiatic dna.
2/ Hill Cumorah (gold plates hidden there) is in New York area whereas the BOM suggests a more central Americas location.
3/ 'White', bearded Indians. No evidence.
4/ BOM talks about a Christian conversion for the BOM peoples at the time of Christ's death (they were some of the 'Other sheep')
5/ BOM mentions horses / steel / concrete all way before they were introduced to the American continent.
6/ There just isn't enough time for the few people mentioned in the BOM to have grown into a nation that could be waging internal wars.
7/ Writing on gold plates using egyptian heiroglyphic style text.
What I'm going to show is some interesting things found in the Americas:

A maze of man-made chambers, walls and ceremonial meeting places, America's Stonehenge is one of the oldest man-made construction in the US. (over 4000 years old). Archaeological excavations have uncovered an amazing range of historic and pre-historic artifacts-from stone tools, pottery and ancient old world scripts.


In "The History of the Cross" we are told that, "In Palenque, in Mexico, are the remains of an ancient Aztec temple. At the back of one of the altars in that temple is a bas- relief cross some ten feet high. It is a superb design, rich in symbolic carving. Above the cross perches the figure of a bird.... The Mayans and Aztecs of Meso-America and the Nazca, Ica, Moche, and Inca civilizations of ancient Peru [all] used crosses."

This ceramic bust of a bearded man with distinctly Old World features was found in Veracruz, Mexico, and has been dated to 300 AD or earlier. Beards were (and still are) almost non-existent among most indiginous Meso-American tribes.

This first century BC city, now an ancient ruin, can be found 30 miles northeast of Mexico City. Teotihuacan, literally translated from the Nahuatl, means "place where men become gods." Teotihuacan had already been deserted for 600 years when the Aztecs found it. Cement and stucco are found in great quantities at this site.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, among them was perhaps the most intriguing scroll of all - the Copper Scroll. It was found in 1952 in Cave 3 at Khirbet Qumran on the shores of the Dead Sea. Since then, several other ancient scriptural texts have been found on metal plates or scrolls.

Professor Dorothy Hosler of MIT's Center for Materials Research has found pre-Columbian evidence of copper smelting at El Machon, Guerreo, Mexico. Copper was used to make bronze, and various bronze alloys were often referred to as "steel," even in the KJV English translation of the Bible.

This 2500 year-old Etruscan artifact was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb uncovered during digging for a canal along the Strouma river in south-western Bulgaria. It contains six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse-rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers. The Etruscans were wiped out in the 4th century BC.

A 1998 DNA study conducted by The Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA has discovered a mitochondrial DNA strain in some 3% of Amerindians called "Haplo-group X" which supports a pre-Columbian migration of caucasians to the Americas. Haplo-group X is NOT found in Asians, demonstrating it did not come across the Bering Strait.

Ancient Pre-Columbian
Bearded Incense Burner
with Semitic facial features
found in Guatemala
In addition to numerous bearded figurines, carvings, and murals, there have been numerous finds of representations of people who are plainly caucasoid (not resembling the typical Mayans or other Meso-Americans) and very Semitic in appearance.

One of the best kept secrets of Mayan archeology is that quite a lot of Mayan art shows dark and light skinned peoples. The Bureau of American Ethnology calls this "wearing the skins of one's enemy," and dismisses it as as religious ceremony .

The Micmac language was discovered by Catholic priests in 1609 when, as they preached to the Indians, they were shocked to see them taking notes in a strange language. The priests copied the characters, which much later were compared to hieroglyphs used by ancient Libyans and Egyptians and found to have many of the same meanings

The Pontotoc Stele
unearthed in Oklahoma by
Gloria Farley and Weldon Stout.
The Pontotoc Stele, according to Dr. Barry Fell, a celebrated if not controversial epigraphist, is written in a Phoenecian language called Iberian Punic and contains a “Hymn to the Aton,” by Pharaoh Akhnaton. It reads, “When BaaI-Ra rises in the east, the beasts are content, and (when he hides his face?) they are displeased.” The artifact has been tentatively dated to approximately 100 BC. The Hymn, an ancient Egyptian heresy, supposedly expunged, infiltrated Israelite tradition after a lapse of many centuries, and is reflected in the 104th Psalm.
I have more pictures of things like elephants / horses / wheeled artefacts / ruins that look like baptismal fonts. I have articles on the amazing number of arrowheads found in upstate New York indicating a huge battle there (BOM ends in a huge battle at the Hill Cumorah - in NY state.) Burial mounds dotted all over north America with steel weapons found in them.
Why where the indigenous people expecting a white , bearded God to return to them (a fact used by the Spanish and Captain Cook to their advantage?)

Last bit - the dna issue: The BOM describes a population coming from Asia at the time of the tower of Babel - this civilisation was millions strong only a few years before the Israelite migrants arrived. The few Israelite settlers clearly intermingled with the native population and all but wiped out any DNA trace very rapidly.
If anyone is interested I have some other internal things in the BOM that are internally consistent with an ancient culture. Either Joseph Smith was a friggin' genius / lucky in the extreme/ he copied it from someone who was a genius/lucky or it was what he claimed it was.
After all this I don't believe due to any of above - they are merely random ideas and fragments of evidence. I believe because I read the book and asked if it was true. Please feel free to refute any of the above. I don't defend any of them as real evidence, just curios.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

interesting effect! not quite what I was hoping for.
knickers.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago


Mormons have schools of higher education,and institutions to help their people prosper and have a high standard of living.
I also hear (may be in error) that you really have to piss them off to get shunned,that they don't bust up and wreck familys like the Watchtower cult.
Moreover,Mormons didn't screw me the JW/WT did
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

how do I get pictures to show in firefox? Hi Danny, they picked the wrong guy to buzz the day they screwed you.
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 10 years ago

Qcmbr, with all due respect, the "men on the moon" thing sounds a lot like JW's and their pre-flood water canopy theory: a now-embarrassing assertion made by long-deceased leaders of the movement but never officially declared null and void by the current leadership, so JW's just sorta don't talk about that....
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Maybe, but if you want to reject JS you'd hopefully do it a lot earlier on rather than with some obscure references that don't have any doctrinal point.
If I was ever made a prophet (highly doubtful - my wife won't let me have a beard) there are soooo many things I've said that would be used by critics to point out my fallability (like when I said Liverpool would never win the European cup again and that I was going to be an olympic long jumper and my high school comment - 'the holocaust never happened' (before I get flamed I got my terms mixed up, I meant something totally different - what a goof ball!)) Suffice to say - being a prophet / leader of a church does not stop error/opinion(even Moses made a few prize goof ups while a prophet.) By their fruits ye shall know them.
Just for interest sake you should read the story of JS (I'd start with his version before heading to his critics) - its interesting and you may find some sympathy with his early questions and struggles with empty religion.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago





Hi Qcmbr,
Forget the art used to illustrate the BOM , it's just guesswork and certainly not a statement of how it really was.
You're right, these are certainly not photographs, they are only artist's conceptions. That's why I pointed out that this particular scene (Abinadi amid the splendor (Mosiah 11:8) of King Noah) has been, "...variously rendered by Mormon artists."
That doesn't remove the problem because these pictures are simply illustrative of things that are in the text of the BOM itself.
The BOM describes cultures that employed gold and silver as jewelry, ornamentation and a medium of exchange:(Jacob 1:16; 2:12; Jarom 1:8; Mosiah 2:12; 4:19; 8:9; 11:3, 8, 9, 11; 19:15; 22:12; 28:11; Alma 1:29; 4:6; 11:3, 4 ,5, 7, 8, 9, 10; 15:16; 17:14; 31:24; Helaman 6:9, 11, 31; 7:21; 3 Ne 6:2; 24:3)
It describes copper alloy (e.g. bronze and brass) armor (Mosiah 8:10) like the two soldiers are wearing in the picture. It describes iron and even steel(!) and all manner of metallic tools and weapons.(2 Ne 5:15; Jarom 1:8)
Pictures or no pictures, the BOM describes the production of an abundance of durable objects. Gold for example is sometimes poetically called, "The eternal metal" because once it's been mined, smelted and refined, it never returns to its natural state.
There's an exhibition currently touring America entitled, "Treasures From the Royal Tombs of Ur." I think it's somewhere in the midwest right now. This exhibition features hundreds of perfectly preserved gold and gold alloy (e.g. electrum) artifacts that were already ancient at the time of Christ. (This collection is 4500 years old.) Another one toured a few years ago entitled "Treasures of Ancient Egypt" Same story --- Hundreds and hundreds of artifacts that were already over a thousand years old at the time of Christ.
Regardless of what one believes about the Bible, there can be little doubt about the existence of the ancient Sumerians and Egyptians. Leaving things behind is a trademark of human beings and the more advanced a culture becomes, the more it leaves behind.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hi TD - did you see my earlier post with all the pictures (you need IE for some reason?)
 
TD
TD 10 years ago



Hi TD - did you see my earlier post with all the pictures (you need IE for some reason?)
I can't... The pictures are on your local C drive (C:\Documents and Settings\Dave\Desktop\New Folder) which is not accessible from "the other side" of the internet. Pictures have to be hosted on a server with a public IP
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

aww cr*p OK. Let me repost the pics.
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago



 Qcmbr,
try snapfish.com, hosted by hp, its free and easy.
After you set up an account, and upload you picture, just copy and paste the URL to the picture using the "insert a picture from the web" icon here at JWD.
steve.
PS, with all due respect, I'll have to admit that your reasoning of LSD history, and prophet quotation is a pile of pants. IMHO. But, thanks for sharing your explanation. And I do appreciate your style of explanation too.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago


I think this might be a site in the same vein:
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photos-page3.html
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago


Haha - and I do this sort of thing for a living. What a goof ball I am.
Cross Image.
Bearded bloke
His bearded mate.

Middle Eastern Gold Plates
Potentially white and coloured people.
Old World text in Oklahoma. Just pretend you can see more than a fuzzy yellow block.
Some very similar concepts and images from American tribe.
Cemented buildings (with spacious views, parking and great neighbours:wink:
America's stonehenge.
Can't remember why this was useful - something about an egyptian motif and story.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

aww now this isn't funny. I'm off to bed. Blow this for a load of rubbish.
 
poppers
poppers 10 years ago

I've had Mormons come to my house; most recently, two women (!) came a year ago. I have found them to be open and willing to at least hear about other viewpoints, and even (so they said anyway) think about about the things I brought up. What I attempt to do is to get them to, momentarily at least, see what happens when all beliefs/ideas are let go of, to see how "what is" gets skewed by any belief, and how "what is" needs no filtering system to be experienced. What happens after they leave I have no idea. In most cases, I'm fairly certain, they revert to their belief system - they go back to "sleep" and continue their dream version of "what is".
 
Dune
Dune 10 years ago


The thing that turned me off the most about the mormons was their belief that all non-whites went to lower levels of Heaven when they died.
I dont know if they stick to the belief now, but one time is always enough for me.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago


The thing that turned me off the most about the mormons was their belief that all non-whites went to lower levels of Heaven when they died.
I dont know if they stick to the belief now, but one time is always enough for me.
Mormons never believed that, although there was a time that the African Americans weren't allowed to hold their priesthood, just as women can't today (not only in the mormon church, but other christian churches as well). They were, however, always allowed to be baptised and join their church. Secondly, if you know anything about the history of most of the Christian churches in America, you would know that less than a hundred years ago those 'Christians' didn't believe that blacks had souls and it was VERY rare for a white congregation anywhere to have blacks in their fold. The blacks started their own Christian churches (the music was better too). It's only been in the past 25 years or so that black and whites can be found together in a Christian congregation. As people get to know and associate with one another, those old walls of ignorant beliefs are torn down. You can't point to one church or another as to holding 'racists' beliefs when it was a whole ignorant culture that perpetuated such non-sense.
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


U74 - Burned-Over District. I think that only once in America's history could teh LDS church have ever made such an appearance and grown the way it did. I think this time in America's history was a golden age and certainly was partially responsible for Joseph Smith's question ' Which of all the churches is true?'
Really? A golden age??? Understand that the Millerites (where the JWs spawned from) came out of the District and the Fox sisters Spiritualist movement (although they were more of a gimmick)...at the same time all kinds of Utopian Societies were popping up (many in the Burned-Over District) all over. The Holy Roller movement has it's roots there as well. In looking at all of them I tend to feel they all have a lot in common. I understand it was a region full of lay-mininsters or famer-preachers and that at that time there was so much transition in the world that many looked to religion for comfort BUT wouldn't you say that the majority of the religious groups that popped up in the Burned-Over District were cultish?
And what do you think about JS introducing polygamy at Nauvoo?
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


A thought struck me, and I'd really like an answer to it Dave...
If a Christian-raised individual is called upon by Missionaries and the topic of the Trinity is astutely avoided so that the individual can get baptised ASAP, then the individual later finds out that this is not a LDS belief and leaves and is antagonistic due to having been "fooled", wouldn't they be classed as apostate and condemned to the lowest "hell"?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

nope.
There are four 'general' locations:
Outer darkness: Absolute mingers - the Judas Iscariot types - i.e. I saw / know without doubt Jesus amd reject Him. A tiny group - very few can ever do this.
Telestial Kingdom: Stinkers. The rogues, murderers, bad people - the people who reject Jesus but aren't in OD.
Terrestrial Kingdom: The nice people. Everyone who lived a decent life but still reject Jesus' atonement.*
Celestial Kingdom: Those who obey God's commandments and accept the atonement.
All the three kingdoms are glorious and Jospeh Smith said that if you could see the telestial kingdom you'd feel a desire to end your life here just to get there. This world at its very best approximates the telestial kingdom.
If you don't accept the C kingdom however you have rejected Jesus' sacrifice and have to suffer the pains of hell to pay for your sins - in other words you go through what Jesus did at Gethsemane until your sins are paid.
If you left the LDS faith and critically, rejected Jesus but didn't do much wrong your likeley to qualify for Terrestrial life. Like I keep saying the LDS faith doesn't exist in heaven just as much as the born again religion doesn't either. Heaven is not a church. My goal as a missionary was to get everyone baptised by authority not simply as another LDS. In our prophcies we expect the time when other people of the house of Israel will return, led by their prophets (i.e. non LDS.) We also closely identify with the Jews (though I doubt the feeling is mutual:)
* the reason why I was suggesting that obedience is critical - can you accept Jesus if you don't do what he asked? Would Israel have died if they didn't look at the brazen serpent?
I'm going to bed - this place is way too addictive.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Which Jesus? The LDS "Jehovah" one, or Christendom's Trinitarian one?
So I accepted Christ's atonement, subsequently got baptised in spirit and in water and regularly partake of the sacrament of the Lord's supper. I also "hope" with the best of them, and do my best to keep his commandments (especially the ones concerning love).
Unless I get baptised (in this life or post-humously by proxy) by LDSs, you don't honestly expect to see me in the Celestial kingdom though, do you?
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Watch out, LittleToe! He's gonna get baptized for you! AGGHHHHH!!!
(Sorry, Qcmbr. Couldn't resist. Paranoia kicking into overdrive here.)
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Actually LT - I hope to see everyone there! OK that was a pat answer but honestly, its a born again phrase to claim that you can't be saved by the 'mormon' Jesus - you won't find(shouldn't! find) Mormons saying you can't be saved by the 'baptist Jesus' or the 'catholic Jesus'. I don't care whether someone truly believes Jesus is three in one, an individual or green cheese - all I care about is that they try their best to follow Him.
Where we are radically different to all christian religions save one (Catholics) is the claim to authority from a literal divine source.
I found it quite enlightening to hear the response of christians on the door when I told them about the literal building of Zion, the actual gathering of Israel, new scripture testifying that Jesus is the Christ, a modern day prophet receiving revelaion, a restoration of the Priesthood - they were more interested in proving that they were right than the possibility that what we were saying was true. To me that was like telling a rich man that there is more money in a wallet in my hand and that person saying I don't believe you so I won't look - at least have a look you wally!. I always thought that christians would be really excited to find out more about Jesus. I was really wrong. As a side note I always listen to any religious people who wish to share their views. I figure they have as much right to be 'right' as I have.
The funny thing is that often when I talked to born agains they said about how I was a child of the devil and that I was going to hell and then in the next breath said all that was needed was to confess Jesus. I'd stand at the door and think 'duh! - I'm not selling windows here.' Like I said at the top - its a born again trait to say you can only be saved by the born again Jesus.
Now the answer you really want LT - the one you are trying to get out of me: I believe everyone must be baptised by someone with actual authority - not self appointed.
Now the answer you don't expect: Does that happen outside the LDS church? Yes - we know in scripture that there are other prophets and small groups of people who have the same actual authority. Where? Not a clue.
Back to the answer you wanted: Do the Born agains have that authority. Doubt it.
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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Why I like the Mormons and why they are so much nicer then the JWs.
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OneEyedJoe
List of false cause/effect relationships the WTS has asserted
by OneEyedJoe 2 years ago



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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Old Soul - LT would have to be dead and a relative in the LDS church would need to submit his records (we only blanket baptise from over a hundred years ago I think.)
LT - while I hope your not ill in any way...any mormons in your family:wink:
 
carla
carla 10 years ago

Nobody brought up the sacred underwear thing. What's the deal with the special underwear one must wear? Or is that only for special occasions?
 
mormon 4 life
mormon 4 life 10 years ago

THAT THE 1..............THE CHURCH IS TRUE....
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
Is there something less salvagable about recently dead people? Are only dead people (more than 100 years dead) and those who choose to be baptized salvagable? I am having trouble understanding how the line of salvation is drawn.
The post I made was really just teasing with LittleToe carried over from another thread, but your reply raised these questions in my mind.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:Personally I love talking to people of all faiths, and seeing where there is commonality and where it might augment my ecelectic "pot".
Now the answer you don't expect: Does that happen outside the LDS church? Yes - we know in scripture that there are other prophets and small groups of people who have the same actual authority. Where? Not a clue.
I'ev heard that answer before, but the honest conclusion to it is that you'd still expect an individual to be baptised LDS, regardless of the alleged authority of another party, yes?
Back to the answer you wanted: Do the Born agains have that authority. Doubt it.
Which born agains? You've just contradicted your previous statement. Why do you doubt it?
I was baptised by a Minister, who had authority confered on him by a minister, who had authority confered on him by a minister, who... ad infinitum... back through the reformation, through the Catholic church and ultimately claiming its authority from the original Apostles. And yet you'd question not only my credentials but those of the "water and Spirit" baptised "authority confered" Minister who baptised me, yes?
"you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


LT,
You have some sort of eclectic pot? No wonder I reacted so strangely.
"Look. If I went around sayin' I was Emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
 
jillbedford
jillbedford 10 years ago


My 16 year old mother gave me up for adoption, forced choice like we all can relate to.
I was adopted and raised as a Jehovah's Witness.
I spent many years searching for, and found my mother again at age 27. She wanted me to find her and we maintain a relationship now
She joined the Mormon Church.
In the interest of science only, how interesting is it that I was Jehovah's Witness and she was Mormon?
Something to think about isn't it?
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago

OldSoul:
 Of the augmented kind, no less
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya.
The reason for the 100 year thing is to do with not offending people I think. We still manage to get up loads of people's noses anyhow (last time I checked the Jews gave us a right roasting.)
Would I expect you to become LDS LT. I'd love you to. Why? because I love it and purely in terms of friendship I'd like people to have what I have. But I think the import of what you are saying is would I exect you to become LDS to get a 'proper' baptism?
Ok you backed me into a corner. Yep. Your minister is probably a brilliant bloke , salt of the earth and may well trace his line of authority to the Catholic church but I don't think they have the authority either anymore(sorry any Catholics!) One thing that I am very sensitive to however, is that arrogantly proclaiming people's sincere actions such as baptism , in whatever form they chose to show it, does me and them an injustice. I want to make a distinction between what I think is desire and purpose and action.
All christian churches (with a few exceptions) have the same core idea - join us or you won't make it. I mention born agains a lot because they (and the JWS and Plymouth Brethren) were the only religious people who cared enough about their beliefs to consistently duke it out with me on the street(and I'm talking about general membership - I met one cracking Catholic who gave us a good razzle). I met lots of people who claimed that I needed to be baptised into their faith to be saved and that my path was straight to overdone toastiness. Fair enough. But what of authority - do the LDS hang onto it as justification for their existence or do they have a case?
I guess what I needed to hear from JWs, ministers, BAs, Catholics etc.. was a real honest appraisal of why they were acting with God's authority and were'nt just great people with a unique bible interpretation. I guess its the sort of feeling I'd have if I was in a large room full of people and several of those present claimed to be policemen but didn't recognise any of the others as policemen and then proceeded to start applying the laws of the land as best they saw fit and disagreeing with each other. I'd want some real legitimate claim to the title AND a good understanding of the law.
Here's a scripture I think that is fairly non contentious but makes good sense to me:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
There was a structure set up to unify the members but since we are now thousands of competing faiths definately not unified something has gone wrong. I think their is an implicit recognition that doctrine can be interpreted differently and people can hold tenaciously to cherished beliefs - doesn't make it right though.
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Paul recognised that this church at Ephesus would be struggling with some of its own members raising up followers and basically creating a new church. That is also what has happened since, to the church in general. Loads of new churches/ charismatic leaders/ reformers and so on. Did the 'grievious wolves' have authority? - probably not but their disciples would argue they did. Nothing has changed today. Would God honour a baptism performed by one without authority? Take your pick. I'd plump for probably not - I don't see any justification for being blase with any of the commandments - the OT should teach us that at least!
I think its important to check out someone's credentials before we head off into the wilderness for 40 years with them. If God never really talked to them from a burning bush it would be a real bummer and you could look back on many wasted years.
I think about this a lot and us it to critically examine my beliefs - I don't want to eat manna if I can have beer and pizza.
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
I don't believe anyone who claims religious authority over another human is doing so with Scriptural backing. I believe that I can Scripturally take the pegs out from under anyone on earth who lays claims to authority from God over other humans. Paul specified what the overseers were overseeing. They were to tend, or look after the flock. They did not have AUTHORITY over them, they had RESPONSIBLIITY toward them. After all, these aren't their sheep, are they? IMO, there is a BIG difference between Authority over and Responsibility toward.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya OldSoul - Ok could you do it to Moses? Or do you just mean modern day people? I'd be interested in what your arguements are.
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Um, unless I am mistaken (always possible) Christ sort of tossed the priesthood and its attached authorities out the window. I don't read anything in the Greek Scriptures that indicates I should be subjecting myself to any of the models of religious authority evident in Israel.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Would you have followed the 12 apostles?
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
No. I would not. And they wouldn't ask me to, so fortunately I wouldn't need to. (1 Corinthians 3:5-9)
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I'm missing the full import of what your saying here. I don't see any lack of structure here?
There is definately a structure in the NT.
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
I'd follow a true prophet any day.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hey LT! Just to let you know (and to balance my arrogance) - I'd be honoured if you also wanted me to baptised by your minister. I like to think that someone else wanted me :smile:
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:
There is definately a structure in the NT.
In so much as Paul could argue theology with the best of them. They were one church that happened to meet in various cities. The modern-day equivalent remains the whole body of believers united to Christ, regardless of the bunker mentalities that have pretty badges. As a point in case, from a LDS perspective, wouldn't it be true to say that there are those in and out of the LDS who will reach the highest possible heaven, and those in and out who will not? Does Christ limit himself to human structures?
I'd be honoured if you also wanted me to baptised by your minister. I like to think that someone else wanted me
Doesn't this entirely miss the point of baptism? Is it really just a "nice ritual" that you've gotta do at some point because Jesus alluded to it?
On coming to faith in Christ an individual get's baptised "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - a simple initiation into the Christian Mystery School, identifying the individual to the "church" (i.e. body of believers, regardless of congregation or denomination).
Had my baptism in the JWs been to that simple formula I might have been content with it. As it happens all of their formulas have been corrupted and added to, and besides, their dedication is specifically to the Father with no implicit trust in the Son per se.
The water is symbolic of the inner cleasing that has already taken place, with the Holy Spirit, not merely a badge or act of superstition. Why not hedge your bets completely and get initiated as a Muslim, Hindu and Sikh?


 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Hey Q, you never answered the questions on my last post....but I suppose LT and Old Soul could be more interesting....
Jill- it is pretty weird. My mom and her parents converted when she was a teen. My grandfather was adopted and found his living siblings after conversion...none of the siblings were JW but many of their children were...also had other family members covert to mormonism. It's almost like some kind of genetic mishap makes people in my family prone to this thing...BUT THIS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Sos. U74.
Yea - you could say a lot of the religions that sprung from that period where cultish but you know what I liked about that period. Th epeople desired to know God, they wanted to go to church and to worship, they spent alot of time caring so fervently about it that they talked, walked and fought the good fight. The UK at the moment is becoming one godless little sod of mud bar the influx of muslims. I know the born agains are doing their best but the honest truth is we are losing our religion and our desire for religion as a culture and a people (blows raspberry at the cheering tetrapod.) I like it when people want to believe, I get the shivers when we collectively turn away.
Joseph Smith and polygamy. I think it was great and I'm gutted that the church wasn't strong enough to keep it up.
LT - I was offering an olive branch you foobar :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:
 What are ya doing flinging olive branches around for - I'm enjoying this immensely.
Like Tij said, I'm not the Messiah, I'm just a very naughty boy
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Right then - I'm feeling militant enough tonight to play:)
wouldn't it be true to say that there are those in and out of the LDS who will reach the highest possible heaven, and those in and out who will not
-absolutely. We'll(lds) still have to do the earthly work for those outside mind you - all teh baptism/sealing/giving priesthood/marrying for eternity etc...
Does Christ limit himself to human structures?
Trick Question. Christ actually set the LDS up, so we believe, so the only question that really counts here is did Jesus Christ physically return to a 14 year old boy and does He now head the church that bears His name? If not the question would be moot for a mormon because He certainly wouldn't be 'in' any LDS structures.

Doesn't this entirely miss the point of baptism? Is it really just a "nice ritual" that you've gotta do at some point because Jesus alluded to it?
No , baptism by authority is essential to inherit the Kingdom of God IMO. I just like the idea that you might care enough about my soul that you'd perhaps want me to leave my faith and share in yours - unless your agreeing with my way of thinking that we're on the same side..? Still comes down to authority for me.
I could hedge my bets but that would probably contravene 'thou shalt have no other God's before me' and guarantee my place with the unholy hotties.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:
No , baptism by authority is essential to inherit the Kingdom of God IMO. I just like the idea that you might care enough about my soul that you'd perhaps want me to leave my faith and share in yours - unless your agreeing with my way of thinking that we're on the same side..? Still comes down to authority for me.
So without an LDS baptism, I won't see the kingdom of heaven??
Further, wouldn't your being baptised by my Minister friend be similar to hedging your bets and thus condemning you to unholy-hottie-ville?
I'm honestly perplexed at the similarities to the JWs.
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Yea - you could say a lot of the religions that sprung from that period where cultish but you know what I liked about that period. Th epeople desired to know God, they wanted to go to church and to worship, they spent alot of time caring so fervently about it that they talked, walked and fought the good fight. The UK at the moment is becoming one godless little sod of mud bar the influx of muslims. I know the born agains are doing their best but the honest truth is we are losing our religion and our desire for religion as a culture and a people (blows raspberry at the cheering tetrapod.) I like it when people want to believe, I get the shivers when we collectively turn away.
Well, I tend to look at the time as (although very human) just a means for people to deal with the world transitions taking place. I'm not sure what you mean about the "influx of muslims." Most of the muslims I know aren't godless. Maybe it's not people losing religion but religion losing people.....just a thought.


Joseph Smith and polygamy. I think it was great and I'm gutted that the church wasn't strong enough to keep it up.
I don't know your sense of humor but I'll take this as a joke....still, I'm not sure how JS could be held as a prophet if his lifestyle is considered wrong by most mainstream Mormons.

Anyway, thanks for answering.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hi U74 - I was making reference to the Muslims as the most religious in our country (ie the Christians as a whole are losing ground - though individual groups are still thriving.)
The polygamy thing wasn't a joke! I honestly think that for the time it was a great plan and that it is a better answer than society 'allowing' mistresses and affairs. Polygamy is a long term emotional and finacial commitment to several women and children rather than what currently happens a lot around here which is short term commitment to several women and children and the state takes over the financial side of supporting the kids. Yea I'm generalising I know.
The fact that the LDS church caved due to government pressure is to me the single biggest blot on its copy book. I presume though that most here would say polygamy itself was that blot:)
I could afford another wife if she wasn't too picky.
er..that was my humour bit..
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
I'm missing the full import of what your saying here.
 I agree! And how refreshing it was to read that.
There is definately a structure in the NT.
No disputing it. There is structure. Evident throughout the Greek Scriptures. However, there is no inherent basis for a claim of authority simply because of the existence of structure. Is there?
Key to my point is Jesus continual assertion that the sheep were his. Well, what authority does a shepherd have over sheep that aren't his? None.
If the shepherds are shepherding someone else's sheep, and they themsleves are also sheep, then the authority belongs to the owner (Christ) and the shepherds have no authority over the sheep. Any attempt to exercise illegitimate authority over fellow sheep amounts to beating one's fellow slaves.
In my opinion. But, I am sure I can post dozens of Scriptures, in context, that demonstrate this very thing.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Thanks for the honest answering Q.
Hi U74 - I was making reference to the Muslims as the most religious in our country (ie the Christians as a whole are losing ground - though individual groups are still thriving.)
Thanks for clarifying.
The polygamy thing wasn't a joke! I honestly think that for the time it was a great plan and that it is a better answer than society 'allowing' mistresses and affairs. Polygamy is a long term emotional and finacial commitment to several women and children rather than what currently happens a lot around here which is short term commitment to several women and children and the state takes over the financial side of supporting the kids. Yea I'm generalising I know. The fact that the LDS church caved due to government pressure is to me the single biggest blot on its copy book. I presume though that most here would say polygamy itself was that blot:smile:
Hmmm...I think what you're forgetting is that women have affairs too. Not all women are satisfied with one man. Don't get me wrong though I think if adults are consenting the government shouldn't intervene...and I'm not religious. I'd like to have 4 husbands (that I could divorce at any time). One to make money, another to keep house, a third to look pretty for me and the fourth just to keep me laughing My problem with polygamy is that it doesn't go both ways and also in the US FLDS and other fundie Mormon off shoots they don't have consent. Females are property and if a 13 year old girl is told to marry her uncle...that's what she's supposed to do. If a husband is pushed out of the group and told they are now the wife of so and so...that's what goes. Also, the amount of young men being pushed out of these mormon groups because they are competition to older men is astonishing and heartbreaking. From what I know (from a mormon cousin and some reading) the amount of wives you have gets you closer to the top level of heaven...is that true?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

U74 - to be honest I don't know what the different fundamentalist groups preach. In all seriousness I think polygamy would be an extremelly hard law to live. I love my wife and its a whole alien mindset to think of loving another wife equally. I guess affairs etc.. often happen for excitements sake or when love is dying in one relationship so maybe its unfair of me to compare pol. with playing the field.
I think polygamy is like every other religious practise, once it goes beyond its intended purpose it gets pretty cr*ppy. I think men marrying teenagers is a big nono and the stuff you are describing is fairlt reprehensible to my westernised 2006 eyes and thinking patterns. Maybe its a good thing the LDS chose to remove themselves from that divine law.
 
under74
under74 10 years ago

Thanks for the honesty Q.
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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by Downtowner 4 months ago
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Mormon's BITE model...so much like JWs! but waaay stricter and ridiculous(IMO)
by Batman89 2 years ago
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Why I like the Mormons and why they are so much nicer then the JWs.
by new boy 2 months ago
OneEyedJoe
List of false cause/effect relationships the WTS has asserted
by OneEyedJoe 2 years ago



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My Escape
by Joel Wideman 11 years ago 60 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw experiences
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Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 11 years ago

My mother was Roman Catholic and, it turns out, mentally ill. She was rushed into marriage when my father got her pregnant with me. He was also Catholic, a sailor, and an alcoholic.
When my father was going to be sent to Vietnam, my mother threatened to kill me and herself. She was convincing enough to get my father out of the Navy on a hardship discharge.
I am a bit lacking in knowledge of the chronology, but it would be shortly after this that she was visited by Jehovah's Witnesses. They had the answers to all her questions. She threw out my father's family heirlooms (crosses) and became baptised.
I remember 1975 very well. I remember being huddled in a hotel room with my mother. The WTS (Watchtower Society) had been saying, in the name of God, that 1975 was The End. The convention that we had just attended would be the last one. She spent the entire night crying. To this day, I can only speculate why.
Eventually, the WTS claimed that they had never made a prophecy, only a suggestion that individual JWs had jumped to conclusions. Unlike many, my mother remained a JW. I think, because she was already prone to mental illness, that this was what started her decent into madness. Slowly she changed. She threw herself into being a JW with new energy.
My father, struggling with both his own problem and with trying to keep his marriage together, started going to meetings. That didn't last long. I think he knew he had a drinking problem, and knew that he wasn't the only one. (JWs have serious trouble with the 12-step program)
Eventually my father got tired of moving his whole family to escape the WTS, so he moved by himself. I understand why he HAD to do this, but that doesn't make it hurt any less. My parents divorced some point along the way. I think my father had to claim he cheated on her, since the WTS wouldn't allow her to remarry otherwise. (Not that she ever has, thank God for not subjecting anyone else to THAT emotional rollercoaster.)
I didn't see my father for two or three years. When I saw him again, I didn't know who he was. I can only imagine how much that hurt him. He tried to reestablish a relationship with me, but I don't think he knew how. He told me a lot of things that I now know to be true, but I didn't believe him.
I think that, unofficially, I was "marked" by others in the congregation because of my father. The Elders certainly seemed to keep a close eye on me, despite other youths needing more attention. My only friend during this time was a Methodist kid at school who refused to judge me. I regret not treating him the same way, but he never let it affect our friendship.
The WTS way of handling child molesters is to sweep it under the carpet. I was never abused by any JWs. I'll leave the victim stories to the ones who were. And I knew a lot of them. I think the understanding that the vilest pieces of human garbage were called "members in good standing" was what sowed the first seed of doubt.
Through the next few years, I had horrible nightmares about Satan, which led to my insomnia (which I still suffer from, despite learning the real nature of nightmares). Whenever there was something said during the public talks that I found Orwellian (and there was a lot during this period) I became afraid of MY OWN THOUGHTS. This internal conflict began causing me physical pain. It gave me an excuse to stay home from meetings, and an excuse to avoid the conflict.
I had started writing, but I put this aside as "worldly". I deeply regret this particular choice.
I didn't get baptised when others my age were doing it. I seem to respond negatively to peer pressure. If everyone is doing something, I am least likely to do it. I've watched many of the others in my peer group leave shortly after baptism. I think I was afraid it would happen to me too.
Meanwhile, my mother was becoming increasingly delusional. Any time a new illness made the news, she got it. And so did I. I got my spine "adjusted" by chiropractors and my feet rubbed by biokinesiologists. I went from one psychologist to another, on the premise of reconciling my parents' divorce (a fact of life I had accepted long ago) But the moment the psychologist learned I was a JW, it was off to another.
We moved out of the city. I think because my mother got tired of being harassed by the Elders. (Seeking mental help was frowned upon.) New congregation, new school, same problems. I had already been held back twice (once for immaturity in first grade, and once for attendance in 8th) and when I missed a few days due to legitimate illness, the school expelled me over a clerical error. (Long story short: the movie "Pump Up the Volume" could have been about my school)
I'd say my life really changed May 20, 1988. I turned 18. I had spent my entire childhood thinking that "this system" would end before I was an adult. It had to! I had no trade. No skills. I was entirely dependant on my mother. Why would God - through the WTS - tell me to do NOTHING BUT go out in "field service" if this meant that I'd be utterly unable to survive?
I decided that God was punishing me. I had missed so many meetings. Field Service was impossible for me because of the aforementioned conflict issue. I wasn't baptised. Clearly, I was reaping what I had sown. I "fell away". I didn't stop believing any doctrines, I simply stopped thinking about them. I know it was a cop-out, but I hadn't exactly learned any coping skills.
I tried to get into college, but I did a very stupid thing. I gave my mother the forms to mail. She "lost" them. She managed to talk me into getting a job that turned out to be as a scab at a local factory. (I'm probably still blackballed.)
I then worked at another job that was back in the city and away from her. But I did something stupid and ended up back with her, and jobless. (I guess it was delayed maturity. It was the sort of stupid thing I would have done 3 years earlier, had I been more normal.)
My mother finally did the only good thing she's ever done for me (though her motives were not with my best interest in mind). She kicked me out. My father outdid her though. He got me an apartment and a job, all in one day.
I was free, but I was lonely. There was a Kingdom Hall right down the street. The WTS prints stories from people who have returned. They are always warmly welcomed with open arms, yadda yadda yadda. That's the propaganda. The reality is that they act like they are afraid of you.
So I never went back. Well, not to that one. I revelled in the freedom of noone telling me what to think. I met a Catholic girl and quickly fell in love. My proposal was the most emotionally painful thing I'd ever done, for a lot of reasons.
Note that I hadn't yet decided that the WTS was a lie. My wife really takes the book of Ruth to heart: "for where you go I will go" So, as the blind leads the blind, I got her into the JWs. She's baptised, but now inactive. I'll let her tell her story when she's ready.
I've supported my new family in whatever way I could, including joining the Navy. I've met a lot of people in there who were fleeing cults, including the WTS. Sadly, I saw a lot of people go right on to another cult, whether they came from one or not. (For the curious, I was an SH. Ship's Serviceman. In laymen's terms, I've run the laundry, barbershop, and retail store.)
While finishing up my tour, I got hurt very badly in a stupid accident. Not a "war wound". Not "friendly fire". I fell down stairs. I hit every single one of 20 steel steps with my hip. Ten years later and I'm still in pain, but I can walk.
Now my wife works to support me and I have found solice in writing. I am fascinated by the human mind and how it can lie to itself, so a lot of my writing reflects that. The nightmares that use to torment me now provide my inspiration. I don't have much, but I am grateful for what I have.
My mother, by contrast, is a devout JW. And she's stark raving mad. She's been in and out of psychiatric care more times than I can count. Before they found the right dosage of anti-psychotic medication, she would often believe that her friends - JW friends! - were possessed by demons and trying to poison her. I now understand some incidents, and some of her bizarre mannerisms, from my childhood a lot better. (She would refer to anything demonic as "weird". The demons themselves were "them". Once you figure out the code, her crazy talk makes a lot more sense. Only not.)
As a writer, especially with what I write, I do a lot of research. I've learned what makes a person believe a lie. I've learned what all cults tend to have in common, and why people get sucked into them. But I never thought to apply any of it to the WTS.
On behalf of a friend (I consider all the writers I correspond with my friends. Extending the hand of friendship non-judgementally is very important to me), I went over some research into LDS, or Mormons. While going over the material, I couldn't help but recognize disturbingly familiar patterns. I applied the "mind-manipulating checklist" to the WTS.
(http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/langone_michael_checklis.htm)
At about the same time, I came across the news that the WTS was suing http://quotes.watchtower.ca/ I wondered what they had to hide. So I, naturally, had to read it.
Damned by their very own words. I should not have to reproduce them here, and it wasn't any one single thing. It was a great many things. Some of it is stuff I remember thinking "That's odd." when I first saw it 20 years ago.
The whole thing has left a bitter taste in my mouth. To understand that one has been lied to their entire life is very painful. To understand that one has been had, hook, line, and sinker, for so long, is humiliating. I would not wish this upon anyone. But it is unavoidable. Reading the exit stories of people who left various cults has shown me that our stories differ only in details. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it doesn't want to go back in. Sadly, not everyone survives leaving a cult.
My prayers are with all those still trapped, and especially with those who know it.
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 11 years ago

Yikes! It had line breaks when I wrote it, I swear!
 
misanthropic
misanthropic 11 years ago


Maybe a Mod will break this up also.....? I have glasses on but this one is making my eyes cross
Welcome Joel, if this gets broken up I will be back to read it through again I promise!
 
Simon
Simon 11 years ago

Don't worry, that's the software. Are you using Firefox/Mozilla or a Mac? BTW: Welcome to the forum
 
MerryMagdalene
MerryMagdalene 11 years ago


I appreciate your story, Joel, and look forward to hearing more from you on the forum! Was it your learning about what is going on with the WTS against Quotes that brought you here?
I feel the same way about having been "had" by the WTS, but more for my family than for myself because they are still in it.
I'm just now reading Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz and didn't think it would affect me as strongly as it has. (Thanks, Prophecor, for sending me your copy.)
~Merry
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 11 years ago


Hi Joel,
Welcome! You have a Private Message.
To open it, go to the top of this page and click the line that says
Inbox (1 new messages)
 
avishai
avishai 11 years ago

Welcome!! And yeah, your one heck of a good writer!!!!
 
Pole
Pole 11 years ago


Through the next few years, I had horrible nightmares about Satan, which led to my insomnia (which I still suffer from, despite learning the real nature of nightmares). Whenever there was something said during the public talks that I found Orwellian (and there was a lot during this period) I became afraid of MY OWN THOUGHTS. This internal conflict began causing me physical pain.


 I can relate to that.
Welcome to the board, Joel!
Pole
 
alw
alw 11 years ago

Welcome to the board Joel - very insightful life - but a needed one to be told. Thanks!! Look forward to more of your writings. alw
 
Big Dog
Big Dog 11 years ago

Welcome Joel, sadly an all to familiar story. I think you'll find a lot of support here.
 
misspeaches
misspeaches 11 years ago


Hi Joel. Thanks for taking the time to write down your story for us! I know what you mean about finding out you were lied to all your life. That was devestating for me. I am still adjusting to it quite some time later.
I really look forward to reading more of what you have to share! Welcome aboard
 
Quentin
Quentin 11 years ago

Good to meet you Joel...cults do have a strong hold...even after being gone from it as long as I have can look back and see the hold it had on me for so long...was I right, was I wrong?...don't feel that way anymore, but did take time...welcome to the board...
 
jgnat
jgnat 11 years ago


Neat story, Joel. I notice one word repeated over and over, "stupid". I say, welcome to the human race, we've all been there. I, too, was raised by a crazy momma. She's much better now. My first "stupid" mistake was getting pregnant, the second was to marry the father, the third was to get pregnant again. But if I had not done those things, I would not have my children, my grandchild, or my hard-knocks education.
In spite of it all you have been through, you are an intelligent, thoughtful, and creative man. I bet you have a future in writing.
 
Tez
Tez 10 years ago

Welcome to the board!!! You will find you are among caring folk, who also feel they have been 'stupid' to believe all the lies. Me for one!!  It does take some time to get over the brain washing, I am still struggling! But look forward to seeing more of you on this board. Welcome to Freedom!!!
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 10 years ago

Firefox. And thanks for your help
 
Cellist
Cellist 10 years ago


Welcome to the forum, Joel.
Cellist
 
sweet tee
sweet tee 10 years ago


Welcome to the forum Joel and thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
I think one of the greatest tragedies of being a witless is not rearing your children properly. It sets them up for extreme difficulties in REAL life (remember being told to get a firm hold on the 'real life'  - they haven't got a clue!). My eldest son, the one whom I attempted to indoctrinate (the GB refered to it as in-cul(t)-cate ... hmmm) until he was 14 and I fell away is having the hardest time adjusting to being a young adult. I wanted to push him out of the nest at 21 but I realize that he's not ready and it's partly my fault.
Anyway man, I'm glad you're here and free!!!!
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 10 years ago


Welcome!
DY
 
TheListener
TheListener 10 years ago

Welcome to the forum Joel. I look forward to your input here.
 
Sassy
Sassy 10 years ago

Welcome to the board!
 

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My Escape
by Joel Wideman 11 years ago 60 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw experiences
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anewme
anewme 10 years ago

Welcome Joel, your heart pain comes through loud and clear in your writing. Thanks for your contribution.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


Question, your pofile shows you to be 35 years old, so just how well can you remember 1975 or what was said about it ?
Having been a teenager then why don't I remeber things the way you do ? And please no mind control/brainwashing claims.
Doesn't your post sort of violate guideline number 2
Mark
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 10 years ago

Welcome to the board, Mark.
 I also remember, in painful detail, how I got the scars on my arm. The house we lived in had a heating vent on the floor which got very hot. My mother and father were talking about going to the beach, which I thought meant "right now", so I grabbed a blanket (no idea, it made sense at the time) and ran after her while she was putting away laundry. My foot got tangled up and I landed on that heating vent. I stayed there, screaming, until my mother picked me up. She doesn't know how I could remember, since I was only 2 or 3 at the time.
 I remember the German Shepherd that attacked me as I played on the sidewalk when I was 6. I remember getting the single stitch in my leg, but - oddly - not the 5 stitches over my right ear.
 I remember the little Asian girl who tried to scrape my freckles off with a plastic knife. I'm not sure, but I think it came from a Play-Doh set. She called me "Jello". I don't know how old I was, but it had to have been before school.
 I remember thinking I was going to go to school when I was 4, and announcing the fact to everyone who came to the door.
 I remember when my favorite TV show was "Zoom".
 I remember each of my pets. And the sadness when they died or had to be given away.
 I remember, when I was 7, a little girl in the neighborhood who lived with foster parents. She told me what her real father had done to her, and I wish I could forget.
 I remember these and many more things. Many of them I can recall only by remembering something else first, but a few will spring unbidden into my mind. Memories I had thought long forgotten. I am haunted by memories.
 Yet, I forget what today's date is, my own phone number, or where I put my keys. I don't have eidetic memory, which would be really useful as a writer.
 I said nothing in that post that broke the rules. I avoided bringing up certain things that would have invaded someone's privacy. I spoke only the facts as I know them. Your post is an obvious attempt to silence me via chastisement. I can only guess that I must have struck a nerve.
 While I _should_ be upset at your calling me a liar and making accusations, I am not. I understand and sympathize. I used to do the same thing to my father.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


With due respect, I am not calling you a liar. I am challenging your memory. We tend to remember what we want to.
There are those who INSIST that 1975 was taught to be the end. You seem to fall into that group. There are some questions that I have been unable to get a straight answer to concerning this alleged "teaching". Maybe you could be the first who will give me something other than "C.Y.A." thinking.
If 1975 was being taught as "The END", why were plans for District Conventions in 1976 announced at the 1975 ones ? If "The END" was coming in 1975, some go so far as claiming the fall of 1975, why print MILLIONS of magazines for the months of October, November,and December of 1975 ? Why announce when the Memorial would be held in 1976 ? Why build so many new Kingdom Halls from 1973 or abouts right on through ? With in a 200 mile radius of where I grew up 6 new halls were built during the 1974 - 1975 service year, why bother ?

How about it ? Have any ideas ?
Mark
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 10 years ago

That's called covering your ass. Something the Society told Witness youths not to do until 1994.
 Now let me ask you. If the Society never said 1975 was the end, then why did so many people believe it at the time? Could it have had anything to do with articles like this:
 Watchtower 1966 October 15 pp.628-9 Rejoicing over "God's Sons of Liberty" Spiritual Feast
 Only a liberated people can preach a release to captives, conventioners were told in the speech "Preach a Release to the Captives," which thrilled them with its hopeful outlook. "Jehovah, the God of freedom and liberty, has freed his people from Babylonish bondage and has given them a work of liberation to do. That work of liberation and salvation must go on to the finish! To give aid today in this critical time to prospective sons of God," announced President Knorr, "a new book in English, entitled 'Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God,' has been published." At all assembly points where it was released, the book was received enthusiastically. Crowds gathered around stands and soon supplies of the book were depleted. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


So you have no better answer than "C.Y.A." ?

Mark
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


A better question would be, if 1975 was taught to be the "END" and 1975 came and went, why didn't MORE people leave ? Why did so many more STAY?

You are not the first person I've come across who makes this claim. Yet when asked to produce a single clear statement from a Watchtower or other publication that indeed says 1975 is going to be the "END" all have failed. Csn you do any better ?

Mark
 
Aude_Sapere
Aude_Sapere 10 years ago


With all due respect, beep,beep...
I was extremely active in 1975 and my dad was PO at the time. I have clear recollection of talks with 'strong suggestion' that Sept/Oct 1975 was to be the end.
Somewhere on this site is a link to society literature that highlights the same.
-Aude.
 
Aude_Sapere
Aude_Sapere 10 years ago


If "The END" was coming in 1975, some go so far as claiming the fall of 1975, why print MILLIONS of magazines for the months of October, November,and December of 1975 ? Why announce when the Memorial would be held in 1976 ? Why build so many new Kingdom Halls from 1973 or abouts right on through ? With in a 200 mile radius of where I grew up 6 new halls were built during the 1974 - 1975 service year, why bother ?
I remember asking those same exact questions. The answer I was given at the time was that we would need them after Armegeddon to maintain theocratic education of ourselves and the myriads that would be brought back to life. The systems in place pre-Armageddon were training for the *real* education work that would follow during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
-Aude.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


You know what, so was I. And yet I don't remember any such clear talks. Bottom line people read MORE into what was written there was actually there. I travelled to various Kingdom Halls with my father as he gave talks. I never came across anyone who taught or believed that 1975 was going to be "IT". I do not know where this claim came from and as I said earlier I have yet to see a single clear statement to that effect, not one. Wonder why ? I mean if it was plainly taught surely there should be some statement or statements that clearly say that.

Mark
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


And yet there is nothing there that BOLDLY proclaims 1975 is to be the "END" is there?

Mark
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 10 years ago

btw welcome to the forum
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 10 years ago

Mark, it is clear that you choose to believe that the people who left were themselves at fault, rather than the Society's well-documented fearmongering. If the Society said that tomorrow the world will end, two days later there'd be people making excuses for why it did not. A year later, they'd be saying that the Society never said that.
 I find it interesting that the only issue you chose to challenge was the 1975 one. That was the least of my reasons for leaving, and yet you pounced upon it like a cat on a catnip toy. Did you think you could distract people away from the more difficult to challenge issues of harboring child molesters, lies, and attempted silencing of those who expose those lies?
 
HappyDad
HappyDad 10 years ago


I was a JW since 1970 (date of baptism) and studying for two years prior. Strong emphasis was placed on 1975 as being the end. As the time got closer, there were a few articles saying that if it truely wasn't Jehovah's timetable, we should still wait patiently because it still is a short time left. Now that is the epitome of CYA by the borg!
Beep beep......I don't know if your head was under a rock in 1975 but it seems like it is in 2005. How much evidence do you need to believe that the society STRONGLY suggested 1975? Go to Quotes site to see some of what the borg published about it. When it didn't happen, there was not a mass exodus. I .....along with the majority.......believed the society's teachings. They had a way of pulling thier foot out of their mouth everytime. As always, we thought....."where else are we to go?" Thank God for the internet.
HappyDad
P.S. you should obey your mother and stay away from the evil apostate web sites.
 
core
core 10 years ago


Re 1975
The Society did teach that this would be the end...in a Circuit Visit (to all congs worldwide) some few years earleir, COs gave a special talk on the Saturday evening (to which only cong members were asked) - in that outline talk the CO reviewed the "reasons" why it WOULD be 1975 - all related to Adams Creation/Creation of Eve/Conception of first human baby etc etc
At every opportunity a fever pitch atmosaphere was created in which people were actively encouraged to sell all they had and pioneer in the "last few months" -
Why did so many stay after being disappointed - I suppose because with so much invested its difficult to just walk away....and we were led to believe it was only a matter of months out in any calculation so we should just hold on and preach.....
During the 60s and 70s I was an adult servant/elder/PO so was fully aware of what was said and the import placed on it
 
luna2
luna2 10 years ago


I wasn't a JW in 1975. I didn't start studying until ten years later. I had no clue that 1975 was anything special to witnesses at all. I would never have questioned the sister who studied with me about the date. Oddly enough, it was one of the first things she brought up.
We'd been discussing Armegeddon in the early days of our studying together as it had been her "conversation starter" when I opened the door to her...and she spent quite some time defending and explaining why some erroneously thought the end was coming in '75. I can only think that she was still convincing herself that she and others were personally at fault for believing the predictions made by the WTS or why would she still be so focused on it ten years later? It's also possible that she had run into questions about the date or taunts about the Watchtower's false prophesies from other "worldly" folks and was making an explaination to me so that I'd be ready if my family or friends brought it up. ....which brings up why "worldly" people would even know that the date was so significant if references hadn't been published in the literature as well as it being widely discussed by the JWs going door to door.
From my own experiences as a JW, I also know that the Society has become very careful about what they put in print. They'll often surround the point they are trying to get across with disclaimers so that they can point to the same magazine article to both prove or disprove that they encouraged a certain belief. The real backup for whatever they want people to believe comes via public talks on Sundays, CO's talks and at the Circuit and District Assemblies...most of which are not recorded widely and can therefore be denied or easily refuted later if the FDS changes their minds. Very clever, no? So, I'd imagine that a lot of the 1975 hysteria was built up not just in mags and books, but using talks...and that's not something you can pull out and show people years later.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


Sorry. I chose 1975 because it is the easiest to show people you are wrong. Since I was there and read and heard the same thing as those who left did who else can be responsible ?
I really take offense at the harboring of child molester claim as well. Nothing could be further from the truth. More than twenty years ago my nephew was abused by his father. The quickest way to have a second witness to the abuse is a visit to a DOCTOR!! That's all it would take. That's all it did take in my nephew's case. This father was disfellowshipped, went to trial, and eventually pleaded guilty. The sad part is the court decided 9 months to 59 months was all the crime required. He was in for 10! So for all those who did not take the simple step of seeing a doctor, who's at fault here ?
I read of your family life. I'm sorry it was so bad, but answer me this. Who is at fault there ? Who's to blame because your parents were not up to the task of making a marriage work ? Who is to blame that they were such lousy parents ?
I'm tired of all the "cry baby, refuse to accept responsiblity for my own actions" tales that show up on the internet. It reminds of of a song by the Eagles.
""Victim of this/ victim of that/ momma's too thin/ and your daddy's to fat/ Get over it"
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


P.S. ; you should obey your mother and stay away from the evil apostate web sites

By your p.s. you assume I still am a Witness. You are aware of what happens when you assume aren't you ?
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 10 years ago

Do the words "logical fallacy" mean anything to you?
 People have refuted your statements regarding 1975. If you're going to attack straw men, pick better ones.
 Blaming the parents is almost as good as blaming the victim. To really twist the knife, insinuate that the parents had their own nefarious reason for not taking the child to the doctor. Completely ignore the fact that many JWs go the elders first, for fear of being DF'd.
 I cannot address your specific example, as I am not privy to the details. I will not stoop to discounting the story. In fact, I'm glad that the abuser was not protected, and was not welcomed back with open arms to abuse again once he had repented. (That is what you're saying, right?) However, I feel it necessary to point out two things. One, a child cannot be considered a credible witness, according to the Society. Two, a doctor can only determine that penetration occured. They can't determine other forms of sexual abuse, and certainly can't identify the abuser. I'm rather amazed that a doctor was invited to testify at a JC. Or was the abuser was already in jail when he was DF'd?
 You point at one case and use that as "proof" that molesters aren't harbored. Rather than drag anyone else into this, I'll simply point at numerous supporting cases.
 You love attacking straw men, huh? I never said I blamed my parents' divorce on the WTS. My parents got divorced because my father is an alcoholic (now sober 25 years and counting) and my mother is batshit crazy.
 How about defending the flip-flopping as shown on the Quotes website? How about defending the WTS instead of attacking me? Could it be that, as you state you aren't a Witness, you aren't here to defend but to attack? Your posting history suggests that.
 
Joel Wideman
Joel Wideman 10 years ago

Oh, one thing, Mark. Thank you. Because of your continued posts to my thread, it has nearly double the viewings it had before it left the first page. Many have been reached, and hopefully helped along whatever path they are on.
 

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Topic Summary
my mother was roman catholic and, it turns out, mentally ill. she was rushed into marriage when my father got her pregnant with me.
he was also catholic, a sailor, and an alcoholic.. .
when my father was going to be sent to vietnam, my mother threatened to kill me and herself.



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My Escape
by Joel Wideman 11 years ago 60 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw experiences
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BrendaCloutier
BrendaCloutier 10 years ago


Beep beep,
I remember 1975.
I was pulled out of HS after my sophomore year in 1973, bribed with a car, to go into the ministry, pioneer, because we had only 2 more years and the word, the Truth(tm) needed to be gotten out there about 1975.
I remember the slogan "Stayin' alive until '75".
I remember when we were to study The Truth(tm) Book(tm) with interested persons for no more than 6 months to baptism, and move on to the next victim interested party so that everyone could hear about Jehovah. was the book at the time.
The hysteria surrounding 1975 being seen as the end of "this old system of things"(tm), is not imagined.



*** Public Address by District Overseer Bro. Charles Sunutko in Spring 1967 in Sheboygan, Wisconsin
[Recording of this talk available in RealAudio format , 2,745kb, approx 22 minute recording]
"Serving With Everlasting Life in View"
… for whether they be in the more affluent countries of the earth, we'll all still hold on for life, because as long as there is life, we find that there is hope.
If this is true of most persons, how much more true would it be of Jehovah's Witnesses. Because not only do we have the present life to hold onto and to live for, but we hold onto the hope of everlasting life. Because Jesus promised this in Romans the Sixth chapter, that the reward God would give would be everlasting life. So we have a strong desire and instinct to wanna survive and pursue it. And to eventually realize paradisaic conditions in God's New Order.
But in this run for life, some of us looking forward to a change in this old system and its destruction for many years now, there are some of us who get a little weary. And a little tired. And sometimes we just want to throw our hands up and say 'I just don't know if I can go on any further.'
But, just like a runner when he's running a course, and he gets near to the end, just about the time he thinks he can't go on any further, he realizes 'well there's the goal ahead of [inaudible]' He's come around the last lap, and there it is! Well all of a sudden he just seems to get some reserve power from nowhere, and with a sudden surge of energy, on he goes to break the finish line rope and win the prize.
Well now, as Jehovah's Witnesses, as runners, even though some of us have become a little weary, it almost seems as though Jehovah has provided meat in due season. Because he's held up before all of us, a new goal. A new year. Something to reach out for and it just seems it has given all of us so much more energy and power in this final burst of speed to the finish line. And that's the year 1975.
There's been a lot of talk about the year, in fact even this week some individuals have been wondering, 'well, what does it mean? Do we dare talk about it? Is it something we can discuss among ourselves, even though we may not talk much about it in public? Do we really know what it means?'
Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. Because the Watchtower has been very explicit as to what the year 1975 means to us. If you wish to write down the page, 262, in the [May 1] 1967 issue of the Watchtower, we read:
What does the year 1975 mean for humankind? The end of 6000 years of human existence, and possibly, [voice raising dramatically] the time when God executes the wicked and starts off a thousand-year reign under his son Jesus Christ.
Unquote. What did it say? The end of 6000 years of human existence and that's all? NO, it gave us a little more to think about there. Did it say for certainty the time when God executes the wicked and starts off a thousand year reign by Jesus Christ? No. But it did give us a glimmer of light. It says [voice rising] possibly, possibly the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand year reign of his son Jesus Christ, [voice returning to normal] 1975.
Doesn't that give you a little bit of excitement about the future? Even if there is the possibility, [voice rising] that's it, when God will bring the battle of Armageddon, and clean this old Earth off? And you'll be ushered right into a paradise Earth for ever more [voice returning to normal]. Never again to be afflicted with this old Satanic system of things. It will be GONE, DOWN. That should excite all of us.
There are the skeptics who say 'well, I'm not going to think about it and not worry about it. I'm not going to pay attention to it.' Well now remember brothers, the faithful and discreet slave is used by Jesus to to what? Jesus says 'to provide meat in due season.' This is meat, and it's come at the right time. And it's in its due season. And it's not wrong to think about it, and to look forward to it.
As far as knowing for sure? Well, we know what we know for sure. We just read it. [voice rising] 'The end of Six Thousand years of human history, and possibly the execution of the wicked and the beginning of the Thousand year reign.' And that should be exciting enough, and talk enough for us.
When you think about it, what a fantastic, short span of time that is. How many of you here were in New York City in 1958? Would you hold up your hands. A great majority of you here. Where has the time gone since then? Just seemed like yesterday that we were there. But [voice rising] do you realize that more time has passed away since that assembly in 1958 where a quarter-of-a-million Jehovah's Witnesses gathered, [voice returns to normal] that what is left to 1975? Hard to imagine, isn't it? Yes, that was nine years ago. It's only eight years to Seventy-Five.
How little time there is left. How much to happen.
We just wait now, with everlasting life in view, and we serve with the future unveiling in front of us. Very soon now we wait for Babylon the Great to be turned upon and severely scathed and destroyed and decimated 'til where there's nothing left of her.
And then the cry 'Peace and Safety. We finally got rid of the old harlot, she's off our back. No more religion to bother us' the nations say. Uh oh. There they are. Rearing there ugly heads up above the dust. Jehovah's Witnesses. Now with a message more fierce than has ever been heard before. Now with a taunt song to the nations. 'You see? We told you Babylon the Great was going down, was going to be destroyed, you said it would never happen, but you did it yourself. Now you're next. Jehovah will destroy you.' You think they're going to like that? That's when they all combine. All the communistic and democratic powers together, with one objective in mind: 'wipe out those people. Then truly we'll be rid of all antagonists and have peace and safety, and we'll have our unified world.'
But when they begin to attack Jehovah's Witnesses, strange things begin to happen. It seems to be calamities are brought by Jehovah God in a fierce and horrifying way, as though they've never seen things of this nature before. Flesh eating plagues are mentioned by Zechariah that will seep this Earth, rot the eyes out of the sockets, and the tongues out of the mouths. [voice raised] They'll run screaming out of their houses with this striking them [voice returning to normal], and yet they'll see Jehovah's Witnesses are untouched. 'How will we get in now? Let me be one of you!' Well, it's too late now.
And then Jehovah God seems to bring the natural forces against this old system. Terror on air, in land, and in the sea. Fratricidal warfare, neighbor against neighbor. Every un-human, inhumane thing that could occur, not only from men, but even from natural forces.
And Armageddon seems to have two phases now. The latest Watchtower brought out, if you've read it, where it says there is such a thing as a just war, Phase One: All united efforts among the nations destroyed, all political organization gone. All that's left are the kings, standing by themselves, without an ally or friend in the world, all super-suspicious of each other, all standing there tense. Phase Two: Jehovah strikes confusion into their hearts, and in a mad fury and flurry then turn on each other, destroying one another. And what is left? Then Jehovah God calls his super-natural angels and the cavalry of Jesus Christ to close in on them, 200 million angels, with all their destructive power, and what a power that's going to be.
One angel, in one night, when the Syrian forces of [inaudible] came against Israel, destroyed 185,000. Let's say the the 200 million angels of Jesus Christ are limited in power and they can only destroy 185,000. [Voice rising] That would give them the potential to destroy 37 trillion persons. [voice returns to normal] There aren't near that many on the Earth. In fact, that's 12, 333 times the number of people even alive. All that power wrapped up in the cavalry of Jesus Christ. And all of that, possibly, has to happen and be finished within the year 1975.
Exciting years ahead of us! And then look beyond that: the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Know what that means? All the dead being brought back. Just think of the dear ones you've lost, maybe in the last five or ten years. Don't you look forward to seeing them coming back? Well it won't be long now. Look at what's ahead.
You think you're going to mind having to work with the crops and the land when you find out that your loved ones are going to come back and you have to plant a little extra for them? You think you're going to mind, when you are notified maybe a little in advance, that you need some shelter? As you are going to have to build [inaudible] for your loved ones temporary living quarters for when they come back?
Just think what it's going to be like when the family is notified it's time, and you all gather there, waiting, and you see them rise up out of the dust. Like Isaiah says, "Awake you in the dust, you residents. Come alive." Think you're going to mind seeing that?
That's our future. What a wonderful one. The resurrection is something to stagger the imagination with immensity. When it comes to the number that will be back, we don't know for sure, but some comments have been made by the Society, that could give some idea.
You may want to make note of these references, read them later.
"Things in Which it is Impossible for God to Lie" paragraph 12, page 350: "Billions who died before Jesus, billions who died since will be back."
The latest publication, "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God" page 393 paragraph 26: "Thousands of millions."
The Watchtower 1964, page 722, paragraph 24, and listen to this: "TENS of billions will be back".
How many are tens of billions? Well at least 20 billion. 'Cause to have tens of billions in the billions, you have to have two sets of ten billion. So at the very minimum figure, lets say even 20 billion coming back. What a fantastic accomplishment that's going to be for our Lord, Jesus Christ.
In fact, there was a tract one time, printed by the Society, called "Millennial Hope Explained" where it mentioned an estimated 20 billion would be back in the resurrection, could be.
This gives you an idea. Fires the imagination. Do you realize what an accomplishment and what an undertaking that's going to be? Why if just 20 billion were brought back from the dead, every day for a thousand years, you'd have to bring back 60,000. Every day, for a thousand years.
Of course, it most likely won't take the whole thousand years, the Society has indicated. We don't know how long the resurrection will take, but that will probably squeeze the number up to where possibly, even more would be coming back.
What a thrilling time we have to live for, my brothers. How much we have to gain, by serving God with everlasting life in view.
But you know that sad part of it? There are going to be some of use here who won't see it, possibly. Wouldn't that be an awful thing, with all that in the future? Some of use here tonight may not live to see it.
Will you? You know there's a way to find out? There's a way to decide, right here and now, whether you'll make it, or whether you will not. Let us see what that is.
Turning to Luke the 13th chapter, we get some information on it. Luke 13, let's begin to read Jesus' words. Luke 13, starting with the 22nd verse. Now Jesus is going village to village, and city to city. In verse 23 it says:
Now a certain man said to him: "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" He said to them: 24 "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able, 25 when once the householder has got up and locked the door, and YOU start to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Sir, open to us.' But in answer he will say to YOU, 'I do not know where YOU are from.' 26 Then YOU will start saying, 'We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways.' 27 But he will speak and say to YOU, 'I do not know where YOU are from. Get away from me, all YOU workers of unrighteousness!' 28 There is where [YOUR] weeping and the gnashing of [YOUR] teeth will be…
What's Jesus saying here? What do you think he's saying here? Well first of all, those of us here tonight, that do not do what he says in verse 24, "exert yourselves vigorously" will not be able to get in. That's step number one. Exert ourselves vigorously through the narrow door. But then he describes a certain "class" of Christians, in God's organization, who would find themselves in this position. It says: "once the householder has got up and locked the door, [inserted by speaker: then] YOU start to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Sir, open to us.' " Well, who would that refer to? Well as far as closing the door, when does it shut down? The destruction of Babylon the Great, the door will be shut down. And then it says some of us will come and want to get into the Lord's organization then, and then we'll say "Lord, open to us" and Jesus will look out at us and say "I don't even know you."
But then we panic and we say "But we ate and drank in front of you taught us in our broad ways." What's that a desperation attempt to do? It's a desperation attempt to say to Jesus, "Its me! You remember me! I sat in front of you, and you taught us in your broad ways. Remember I came to the Watchtower study once a week? And remember when the Circuit Servant was there, I never missed? And every memorial I came?"
What does he say then? "I'm sorry, I don't know you. I don't recognize you. You didn't love the Lord's people enough to be there all the time. You didn't love my house enough to be there all the time. Now why try to come and show you love me? If you loved me you would have been there. So I don't recognize you as one of my people, get away from me. You had time to work righteousness, now get away from me you worker of lawlessness. You had your opportunity. Stand out there with the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. Beat your chests." And wouldn't we?
Wouldn't we at that time, if we were left outside, beat our chests, and gnash our teeth, and weep, and say "God, I was so close. What did I fool around for? Why didn't I do something for The Truth when I had the opportunity? Why did I make all those excuses? Why did I try to fool Jehovah God?"
Well now, who will be there of use here tonight? Well the Society has made application of this scripture, pointing out, that those of us among Jehovah's Witnesses that are not regularly associating with his people, without good cause such as being flat on our back, will not be in the New Order. And we're the ones that are going to come around when the doors close and say "I want in now. Sir, open to us!" And Jesus will have to say "I'm sorry, I don't even recognize you."
Now wouldn't that be an awful thing? You see now why the Society implores us year in and year out, the same old thing: "Brothers, get in the flock. Don't let any excuses get in our way. Nothing of any nature."
There's only one thing that's going to count when that time comes, and that's that we are inside. And we hope that all of us here tonight are going to listen to the Society's imploring.
We're going to listen to their agonizing entreaty "Brothers get in" because they know what's coming! And it's coming fast. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then.
So? What are we going to do now with our future? Why not be like the little piglet? Every see a piglet born? It's quite an amazing thing. They come out from behind the mother's legs, they're blind, they can't see. They're still attached to their mother's umbilical cord. And somehow they've gotta break free of that umbilical cord, come around the mother's legs, and find the milk. How do they do it? Well watch them sometime. They tug and they pull and they scratch. They fall and they get up. And they jerk and they yank. They fall again and they get up again and they tug and pull some more. And pretty soon they break loose and those little legs, they go 'round the mother's legs, and they come up and they find their reward, their milk.
Now we can do the same. We're going to fall once in a while. We're going to slip. It's going to be hard pulling and hard tugging, but don't give in. Get up, get on our feet, and run! The goal is there: everlasting life! Serve with it in view! Do what Jesus Christ says: serve with everlasting view, as long as Jehovah asks us! Jesus urged "Endurance on your part" and then he says "by enduring, you will acquire your souls."
As one brother put it, "Stay alive to Seventy-Five"
[Emphasis Added]
(special thanx to Quotes)
 
BrendaCloutier
BrendaCloutier 10 years ago


*** Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God (book) 1966 pp. 26-30 ***
SIX THOUSAND YEARS OF HUMAN EXISTENCE CLOSING
39 The time is fast drawing near for the reality that was foreshadowed by the Jubilee of liberty to be proclaimed throughout the earth to all mankind now oppressed by many enslaving things. [...] Most certainly the near future would be the most appropriate time for it. God's own written Word indicates that it is the appointed time for it. [...]
41 Since the time of Ussher intensive study of Bible chronology has been carried on. In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


You know I have listened to this recording. It's a terrible recording which might be the only point in it's favor. I have some problems with it however. The first is that there seems to be a steady wind blowing across the microphone or whatever is being used to make the recording. Second and even harder to explain or accept is the LACK of background noises. There is no one coughing, there are no babies crying, no young children making noises. Sorry but having made similar recordings in the past this is almost impossible to do unless one is tied directly into the sound system. But if it was tied into the sound system there shouldn't be the sound of the wind blowing.
Another point is, while I don't know the exact number of district conventions that year I would be willing to guess that this brother, Charles Sunutko didn't give this talk at all of them. I have spoken with a brother who did deliver this talk at another convention. He still has the outline and that thought was NOT, repeat NOT, part of the outline. Sunutko appears to have injected his thoughts into his delivery. That was coomon then.
I find it fascinating that whenever someone brings this talk up it is ALWAYS by Charles Sunutko. Wonder why that is ? Hmmm!
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 10 years ago


Beep I was an elder at that time around 1974 to 1978.
While I can not recall where the wbts PRINTED in clear words that "armageddon is due in 1975" I can clearly recall, that they did everything but that to STRONGLY SUGGEST that 1975 was the year.
Also every time a co came to town there were tapes played of other individuals high up in the wbts that DID CLEARLY INDICATE THAT 1975 WAS THE YEAR OF ARMAGEDDON IN THEIR TALKS AT OTHER KINGDOM HALLS.
It became so obvious that the wbts WANTED US TO BELIEVE THE YEAR 1975 WOULD BRING ARMAGEDDON that there were no doubts in anyones minds.
Why do you refuse to believe those of us who were there at that time??
Outoftheorg
 
BrendaCloutier
BrendaCloutier 10 years ago



 Beepbeep, yes, I can see where and why the talk is possibly disputable. Attack what you can pick on.

However, how about the 1966 edition of the Everlasting(tm) Book QUOTES that the 6000 years will END IN 1975! And the 7th 1000 year period would being in 1975. THAT is undisputable.

Dpon't give me any bullshit that millions didn't believe that 1975 was going to be the beginning of the "end time". Anyone and almost everyone did!. Many lives were forever altered and some destroyed because of that belief, mine included.

I don't care what you say, you will not convince me nor anyone else that The Society(tm) didn't push Armageddon in 1975, or very very soon after.

And, it's only one of many failed prophesies made by the WTBTS and the Governing Body(tm).
 
Aude_Sapere
Aude_Sapere 10 years ago


Links to written 'strong suggestions' that 1975 was either Armageddon or 'the time of the end':

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/99002/1703528/post.ashx#1703528

-Aude.
 
Aude_Sapere
Aude_Sapere 10 years ago


btw I used to work in auditing and would often tape the program.
No babies allowed and sometimes there was a fan blowing on my recorder.
There are quiet areas of conventions (not many, but they do exist).

-Aude.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


""Why do you refuse to believe those of us who were there at that time??""
How about for the very reason that I was there too !!! I was there from early 1966 through 1980.
""Also every time a co came to town there were tapes played of other individuals high up in the wbts that DID CLEARLY ; INDICATE THAT 1975 WAS THE YEAR OF ARMAGEDDON IN THEIR TALKS AT OTHER KINGDOM HALLS.""
And yet no one has been able to produce these other tapes. Isn't that strange ?
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


""I used to work in auditing and would often tape the program.

No babies allowed and sometimes there was a fan blowing on my recorder""
That may well be. However the first time I came across this recording, the person who presented it as "evidence" stated that she had recorded it at her seat during the convention.
I did lots of recording at my seat and there is NO WAY to eliminate the background noises. Sometimes the coughing or the crying would completely overpower the speaker.
Try it some time. See how much background noise you get at a large gathering .
And please, I know the difference between the sound of a fan and the sound of the wind.
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 10 years ago


No one has been able to produce these tapes???
Well if I was a co or do and had these tapes, when 1975 came and went I would destroy these tapes and claim to high heaven "they never existed". Just as you do.
Do you realize how childish and ridiculous you seem to those of us who actually experienced these things?.
You obviously have an agenda and are willing to lie about your own experiences.
Outoftheorg
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago

Or you are willing to lie about yours'
 
BrendaCloutier
BrendaCloutier 10 years ago


Beep beep,
I have asked my parents about 1975, and they agreed that they believed the end was coming then. My dad had been an elder, and prior, a secretary.
I ran into an elder at a Salvation Army, who would not dispute the 1975 date was considered the date of Armageddon, and all he could say was that they WTBTS was incorrect in their calculations, and that "we've since received 'New Light(tm)'", and we appologized to everyone it affected!
I asked my Bro-In-Law, an active elder, and he said yes, we thought that way, don't you remember?
Beep beep. You are arrogant in your assumptions that we were all wrong and you are right.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


""Well if I was a co or do and had these tapes, when 1975 came and went I would destroy these tapes and claim to high heaven "they never existed".""
Even those who left because 1975 wasn't the "End" ? Please get real. If I had such a "smoking gun"and I left because of a "failed prophecy" I would reproduce it and distribute it as far as possible. The lack of any such tapes speaks volumes to me.
There is another problem with your theory:
What about recordings in private hands, in the hands of individual Witnesses during that time? Why have no of those who left over 1975 issue been able to produce such tapes out of their private collection ? Now do you see how silly this claim is ?
Childish and ridiculous ? Funny I was thinking the same thing about those who INSIST that such was taught.
Lie about my experiences, why ? Of what possible value would that be?
 
outoftheorg
outoftheorg 10 years ago


Beep
So thousands of people are wrong and you and only you are right.
Just keep on with your nonsense, making a fool of your self.
Outoftheorg
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


"You are arrogant in your assumptions that we were all wrong and you are right"
Arrogant ? Hardly but based on personal experience I know I'm right. If that's arrogant in your eyes, it is of no concern to me.
"I have asked my parents about 1975, and they agreed that they believed the end was coming then"
I've never denied that SOME did believe the "END" was coming in 1975. What I WILL deny is that it was TAUGHT.
"I asked my Bro-In-Law, an active elder, and he said yes, we thought that way, don't you remember?"
Once again SOME did think that. However the majority did NOT. All one had to do was look to the Bible, as it is plain that no man knows when the "End" will come, not even the governing body. All a person had to do was THINK!! How hard was that?
Do I expect to convince anyone here, No! But when I see something wrong I'll reply.
 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago

Well, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more STAYED than left. What does that say for your thousands ?
 
Gopher
Gopher 10 years ago


Beep, beep -- You sure have livened things up around here today!!
I have a take on some things you said.
How well can you remember 1975 or what was said about it? Having been a teenager then why don't I remember things the way you do?
People tend to remember what they want about the context of the past events. I too was a teenager, attending the congregation with my parents in the 1970's. I remember quite vividly thinking that the end was coming around 1974 or 1975, and that my schoolmates (except JW's) were going to lose their lives in a horrible Armageddon. It might not have said it in EXACT words in the WT Society publications, but all the implications were sure there. Where else could I have gotten the idea? Did I make it up by myself?
If 1975 was being taught as "The END", why were plans for District Conventions in 1976 announced at the 1975 ones ? If "The END" was coming in 1975, some go so far as claiming the fall of 1975, why print MILLIONS of magazines for the months of October, November,and December of 1975 ? Why announce when the Memorial would be held in 1976 ? Why build so many new Kingdom Halls from 1973 or abouts right on through ? With in a 200 mile radius of where I grew up 6 new halls were built during the 1974 - 1975 service year, why bother ?
You can go even farther than that! The WT Society was working on a major expansion at Watchtower Farms in Walkill during 1975, to increase future magazine printing capacity.
There are a couple of possible explanations for this:
(1) The WT Society was hedging its bets, planning for the future "just in case" Armageddon didn't happen in 1975. This would be in contrast to the many people held up as examples in WT literature at the time, who had sold their possessions to pioneer "in the short time remaining". I know of a JW engineer who retired from Honeywell just before 1975, forgoing a really nice pension, in hopes of pioneering until the end of the system. Then after a few years passed, he had to take on cleaning jobs just to keep above poverty level. He's still an elder in a JW congregation, about 80 years old and probably still working his cleaning job. How did he come to believe the end was near.
(2) Another explanation is that the WT Society really never believed 1975 was the real end. The author of the 1975 material in most of the publications and the Society's chief theologian for decades was Fred Franz. It is apparent that the 1975 date was used to rally the troops and instill a sense of urgency and excitement into the JW preaching / recruitment work.
…no man knows when the "End" will come, not even the governing body. All a person had to do was THINK!! How hard was that?
That's an easy one!! Independent thought is not encouraged among JW's, and talking to other JW's about your own thoughts is definitely forbidden. I cannot count on one hand the number of Watchtower study articles I remember that discouraged what they called "Independent Thinking". So logically, the only type of thinking sanctioned by the WT Society is Dependent Thinking -- dependent on THEM and THEM alone as God's Only Representative.
 
prophecor
prophecor 10 years ago


 
Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


"There are a couple of possible explanations for this:"
You forgot one, That it was never intended to come across that the "End" was to occur in 1975.
Seriously, consider this. If 1975 was actually taught and believed to be the "End" why make all the arrangements to RENT the various stadiums, Coliseums and other venues for the 1976 district conventions ? If 1975 was to be the "End", who's to say those buildings would EVEN exist in 1976 ? And who would be around to collect the rent if it all was going to "End" in 1975 ?
"People tend to remember what they want about the context of the past events"
I agree. That's why I asked how much a five year old could actually remember. Why doesn't he mention the announcement for the district conventions to be held in 1976 ?




 
core
core 10 years ago


And please, I know the difference between the sound of a fan and the sound of the wind.
...and I know the difference between logic and conjecture. Re the Tape of this so called overseer - never heard it - not interested - I do not rely on it to prove to me or others what the WTS said/taught re 1975
As said earlier - I was there - an elder - the PO - and know how the society made much of the date in a variety of means
If you can read the Kingdom Ministry articles urging people to sell homes/leave jobs etc to pioneer before the end and then say they did not promote this date then logic will never work.
Regarding the hypocrisy of buying in advance stadium bookings and equipment etc - nothing odd there - the society has always said it will carry on business until the Tribulation interupts - back around 1914 similar arrangements made for assemblies which should have been impossible as the end was night (as with earlier dates as well)
It is amazing that more did not leave after failed expectations - but society craftily carried on and ignored any attempt at an apology for some years - hoping the furore would go away (see Crisis of Conscience for info on this)
YES the Society did promote the date 1975 as the end - it did encourage people to mortgage away their lives to that date
 

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my mother was roman catholic and, it turns out, mentally ill. she was rushed into marriage when my father got her pregnant with me.
he was also catholic, a sailor, and an alcoholic.. .
when my father was going to be sent to vietnam, my mother threatened to kill me and herself.



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My Escape
by Joel Wideman 11 years ago 60 Replies latest 10 years ago   jw experiences
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Beep,Beep
Beep,Beep 10 years ago


"If you can read the Kingdom Ministry articles urging people to sell homes/leave jobs etc to pioneer before the end and then say they did not promote this date then logic will never work"
Perhaps I should clear something up. I went looking for proof that 1975 WAS taught to be the "end". I searched for evidence to show others that everything was to end in 1975. Trouble is, there's probably more evidence to support evolution than there is to support the 1975 theory.
Let me explain. If 1975 was taught to be the "end", there should be articles that state that. There are articles to support everything that the Witnesses teach and believe. There are articles to support the teaching that Jesus is also Michael, that hell is not a place of fiery torment, that the 144,000 are a literal number and the only ones going to heaven. In short, everything. EXCEPT 1975 being the "end", nothing,nada, zilch, zero.
As for your quote above, I have read the Kingdom Ministry articles, yet none of them PLAINLy state 1975 was going to be "It". For that matter none of them "urged people to sell their homes or quit their jobs. I challenge you to produce one.
" As said earlier - I was there" Again so was I. I have read some pretty silly claims about 1975. I think my favorite is the one by a woman who claimed to have been a sister for over 60 years. She spins the tale of "countdown to 1975 boards" in Kingdom Halls. Not just her's but it was done all over the country, she claimed. When I pointed out to her that I travelled with my father when he went to give talks at other Kingdom Halls and never saw these boards she claimed I couldn't have been a Witness as ALL Witnesses knew of these boards. She was the same person who claimed to have recorded the previously mentioned talk.
 

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my mother was roman catholic and, it turns out, mentally ill. she was rushed into marriage when my father got her pregnant with me.
he was also catholic, a sailor, and an alcoholic.. .
when my father was going to be sent to vietnam, my mother threatened to kill me and herself.



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by blondie 4 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago
Saved_JW
Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION
by Saved_JW 4 months ago



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Bizarre plot by Ex-J.W. to kill Latter Day Saints
by Kenneson 12 years ago 6 Replies latest 12 years ago   jw friends
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Kenneson
Kenneson 12 years ago

Through the efforts of his wife, law enforcement was able to foil a plot by an ex-JW, William Busch, who was planning on entering a local Mormon church and killing as many people as possible; he also wanted to kill nacotics officers. She said that "her husband wanted revenge for being ostracized and abused for his prior affiliation with the Jehovah's Witnesses."
Now if this is not bizarre, I don't know what is. Why take revenge on the Mormons, when it was the Witnesses who offended him? And if anyone doubts his intentions towards narcotics officers, just read about the explosive making materials they found at his place. See "Sevier county man accused of LDS murder plot"
http://www.sltribune.com/2004/may/05082004/utah/164577.asp
 
Valis
Valis 12 years ago



 
Special K
Special K 12 years ago

Boy Kenneson..
That puppy sure has got problems......
Whew..........
sincerely
Special K
 
little witch
little witch 12 years ago

Nutjob indeed! Thanks for sharing that story Kenneson. A change of pace from the usual "the jw's had a convention in our city, and they were soooooo wonderful".  Type of newspaper articles.
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595061165,00.html
Plot to kill 2, bomb a church reported
By Pat Reavy
 Deseret Morning News
A 6th District judge Tuesday denied bail for a man police say plotted to kill the Sevier County attorney, kill the head of the county narcotics strike force and detonate a bomb inside an LDS church in Joseph in Sevier County.
 William Carl Busch, 51, is charged with possession with intent to manufacture a controlled substance, a second-degree felony, recklessness with an incendiary device, a third-degree felony, and possession of a controlled substance, a class B misdemeanor.
 Busch was arrested April 15 after officers served a search warrant at his house and found bomb-making components, said Sevier County Sheriff Phil Barney. Wind of the alleged plot had surfaced about a year ago, but the big break for investigators came when Busch's wife told her LDS bishop about the alleged plot.
 Busch was reportedly upset with Sevier County Attorney Don Brown and the head of the narcotics strike force because of an arrest and conviction in 2001 for a marijuana-growing operation, Barney said. The marijuana operation was big for the area, generating an estimated $13,000 per harvest, he said.
Busch allegedly plotted to kill the county officials and their families. "He said he 'would make them suffer,' " said Sevier County Capt. Gary Reid.
 Busch apparently also had a deep hatred of the LDS community. His wife, Tammie Busch, told the Deseret Morning News that her husband's resentment toward The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints started when he was a child. He was raised a Jehovah's Witness, she said, and he said he was often picked on or excluded from activities because his religion was different.
 William Busch's second wife also reportedly disliked LDS members because of earlier experiences in southern Utah, said Tammie Busch, who is his third wife. William Busch reportedly make a promise to his second wife before she died that he would "take care of the problem."
 "He was plotting (his revenge) even before we were married," Tammie Busch said.
 Tammie Busch, an active member of the LDS Church, married William Busch Aug. 23, 2001.
 At almost the moment they wed, Tammie said, William suddenly changed and began plotting his revenge, something he talked about during the entire time they were married.
 Tammie Busch said she believed part of the reason William married her was because he thought it would influence the district attorney.
 "He felt that if he married a Mormon that his case with the drugs would go smoother," she said, "that they would be more lenient."
 William Busch began going to LDS Church meetings after marrying Tammie, but she now believes it was so he could survey the area and further plot out his strategy.
 Originally, Busch planned to shoot everyone in the congregation, Tammie Busch said, including several police officers.
 "He was sure one of them would take him out," she said.
 Between 350 to 450 people attend church at the LDS church in Joseph.
 Because Busch had trouble accessing firearms because of his drug conviction, he began experimenting with making bombs, Tammie Busch said. His plot eventually changed to bombing the church and the homes of the county officials.
 When deputies served a warrant at William Busch's house, they found about 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device and two packages of marijuana seeds, according to court records.
 "We had information he was experimenting with them," Barney said.
 Tammie Busch said she tried to tell others about what was going on in her house but no one would take her seriously. She also said she didn't have an opportunity to warn many people because "my husband had a lot of control over me," including not letting her use the Internet without close supervision.
 It was after she told about the alleged plot to her LDS bishop, who then contacted police, that action was taken, Tammie Busch said. Prior to that she said she tried talking William Busch her husband out of it.
 "I begged him to leave the subjects alone, to try and think of pleasant thoughts. We had wanted to move out of the state, possibly be happier somewhere else. He didn't want to hear that," she said.
 The plan allegedly called for killing the county attorney, then waiting a couple of years to kill the strike force head, Tammie Busch said. It was never clear when William Busch planned on committing crimes at the church. He allegedly planned to start carrying out his plan within a year.
 Between crimes, Busch said her husband, William Busch, an experienced outdoorsman, planned to live off the land in the mountains, his wife said.
 Tammie Busch also has a criminal record, for forgery. Both she and her husband are on Social Security for mental disability, but she said that should not make a difference.
 "That does not make what happened any less real or truthful. He made a choice that wasn't good. He knew what he was doing."
 When asked if William Busch would really have carried out his alleged plot, Barney called him a "very dangerous individual."
 Despite the alleged murder plot, and the fact Tammie Busch has filed for a protective order against her husband in April, she said she will let him decide whether he wants to file for divorce.
 "I still love my husband. My husband has some deep issues. He needs help. I'd like to see him get the help he needs. I don't know if that means we could ever be together as husband and wife. He needs to work on his problems first. I couldn't go through what I've been through in the last two and a half years."
 William Busch is scheduled to be back in court May 18. In denying him bail, Judge David Mower called him "an extreme threat to the community," according to court records.Busch allegedly plotted to kill the county officials and their families. "He said he 'would make them suffer,' " said Sevier County Capt. Gary Reid.
Busch apparently also had a deep hatred of the LDS community. His wife, Tammie Busch, told the Deseret Morning News that her husband's resentment toward The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints started when he was a child. He was raised a Jehovah's Witness, she said, and he said he was often picked on or excluded from activities because his religion was different.
 William Busch's second wife also reportedly disliked LDS members because of earlier experiences in southern Utah, said Tammie Busch, who is his third wife. William Busch reportedly make a promise to his second wife before she died that he would "take care of the problem."
 "He was plotting (his revenge) even before we were married," Tammie Busch said. Tammie Busch, an active member of the LDS Church, married William Busch Aug. 23, 2001.
 At almost the moment they wed, Tammie said, William suddenly changed and began plotting his revenge, something he talked about during the entire time they were married.
 Tammie Busch said she believed part of the reason William married her was because he thought it would influence the district attorney.
 "He felt that if he married a Mormon that his case with the drugs would go smoother," she said, "that they would be more lenient."
 William Busch began going to LDS Church meetings after marrying Tammie, but she now believes it was so he could survey the area and further plot out his strategy.
 Originally, Busch planned to shoot everyone in the congregation, Tammie Busch said, including several police officers.
 "He was sure one of them would take him out," she said.
 Between 350 to 450 people attend church at the LDS church in Joseph.
 Because Busch had trouble accessing firearms because of his drug conviction, he began experimenting with making bombs, Tammie Busch said. His plot eventually changed to bombing the church and the homes of the county officials.
 When deputies served a warrant at William Busch's house, they found about 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device and two packages of marijuana seeds, according to court records.
 "We had information he was experimenting with them," Barney said.
 Tammie Busch said she tried to tell others about what was going on in her house but no one would take her seriously. She also said she didn't have an opportunity to warn many people because "my husband had a lot of control over me," including not letting her use the Internet without close supervision.
 It was after she told about the alleged plot to her LDS bishop, who then contacted police, that action was taken, Tammie Busch said. Prior to that she said she tried talking William Busch her husband out of it.
 "I begged him to leave the subjects alone, to try and think of pleasant thoughts. We had wanted to move out of the state, possibly be happier somewhere else. He didn't want to hear that," she said.
 The plan allegedly called for killing the county attorney, then waiting a couple of years to kill the strike force head, Tammie Busch said. It was never clear when William Busch planned on committing crimes at the church. He allegedly planned to start carrying out his plan within a year.
 Between crimes, Busch said her husband, William Busch, an experienced outdoorsman, planned to live off the land in the mountains, his wife said.
 Tammie Busch also has a criminal record, for forgery. Both she and her husband are on Social Security for mental disability, but she said that should not make a difference.
 "That does not make what happened any less real or truthful. He made a choice that wasn't good. He knew what he was doing."
 When asked if William Busch would really have carried out his alleged plot, Barney called him a "very dangerous individual."
 Despite the alleged murder plot, and the fact Tammie Busch has filed for a protective order against her husband in April, she said she will let him decide whether he wants to file for divorce.
 "I still love my husband. My husband has some deep issues. He needs help. I'd like to see him get the help he needs. I don't know if that means we could ever be together as husband and wife. He needs to work on his problems first. I couldn't go through what I've been through in the last two and a half years."
 William Busch is scheduled to be back in court May 18. In denying him bail, Judge David Mower called him "an extreme threat to the community," according to court records.
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=92042




 
Man Allegedly Planning to Bomb Church, Police Arrested
 May. 5, 2004
Sam Penrod reporting
Domestic terrorism, in a small town Utah.
The town of Joseph is in shock, after learning details of one man's plot to attack an LDS ward, and bomb elected officials.
Tammie Busch, Wife of Suspect: "This is not a religious matter, it's an angry man my husband is a very angry individual.
The man, is in jail. But, police insist his frightening talk of using guns and fertilizer bombs was more than just threats.
The man apparently was upset at police after he was busted for growing marijuana. And what makes this case so disturbing, is that the suspect was experimenting with fertilizer and diesel and by all accounts was getting close to carrying out his threats.
William Busch is in the Sevier County jail, charged with possessing an incendiary device and growing marijuana.
Busch's wife of two and a half years spoke to us about their marriage, which she says was abusive and frightening, as her husband talked of killing people in her LDS ward.
Tammie Busch, Wife of Suspect: "Within a month of being married to him, he let me know that he had promised his late wife, that he would take all of his guns and go into the Joseph LDS Church ward during the sacrament meeting and just start shooting, until somebody killed him. "
But in recent weeks, Busch says her husband's threats have focused on bombing the homes of police and prosecutors for revenge after a police drug raid.
"Tammie Busch: "He had changed his scenario, I can go up and place and bomb and walk away scot free, nobody will know who placed it."
In March, Busch says her husband bought ammonia nitrate fertilizer and was testing out his own bomb recipes in their back yard.
That's when she told her LDS bishop, who called police.
The County sheriff believes as outrageous as the threats sound, Busch was serious.
Phil Barney, Sevier County Sheriff: "I think he definitely planned to carry them out."
Tammy Busch Is seeking a protective order against her husband and because of his mental instability hopes he is kept in jail.
Tammie Busch, Suspect's Wife: "My husband needs help. I would like to think that I could still be there for him, i just couldn't let these people be hurt."
A judge has denied bail for William Busch and found there is probable cause for him to stand trial.
Busch will be back in court to enter a plea to the charges, later this month.
 
 
sf
sf 12 years ago

Thank God- It's a Friday Grab-Bag!
storyhunters.com - May 7, 2004
... William Carl Busch, 51, of Servier County, Utah, is charged with preparing to kill his local county attorney, the head of the county narcotics strike force and ... :
* When the police find found about 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device and two packages of marijuana seeds in your house, you know you're in trouble. William Carl Busch, 51, of Servier County, Utah, is charged with preparing to kill his local county attorney, the head of the county narcotics strike force and to bomb a Mormon church. Busch's wife knew of his plans and told her Mormon bishop, who contacted police.
Busch apparently wanted to bomb the church because he had grown up as a Jehovah's Witness and was ostracized as a result of his different religion.
Posted by lsaintcrow at May 7, 2004 01:04 PM | TrackBack Comments
"When the police find found about 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device and two packages of marijuana seeds in your house, you know you're in trouble."
diesel fuel...Dangerous, but not unusual.
an igniting device...Dangerous & Unusual.
60 pounds of ammonium nitrate...Bad Intentions.
two packages of marijuana seeds...????????!!!
two packages of marijuana seeds...????????!!!
How did this nugget find it's way into the article. Obviously the afforementioned list of items can be used for malicious purposes.
What EVIL was Busch trying to unleash with his "two packages of marijuana seeds?"
Shoot, if he had grown the seeds and smoked the harvest, he might not have been so angry!
Irregardless, to list two packages of marijuana seeds in the same sentence with 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device about a guy who wants to blow up a church is sensationalism and irresponsible journalism.
Quick Note: Mr. Busch, The Morman Religion is based on the idea that Joseph Smith found a lost testament of the bible written on tablets of gold in America during the 19th century. Oh Yeah, And Smith was the ONLY one to ever see them.
Did I mention you often hear Naive used as a synonym for Morman?
Ostracisation from these people made you want to blow them up? Personally hanging out with them would cause that reaction for me.
Besides, if we were going to start blowing up churches that base their reigions off made up stories, I would never see a Jehovah's Witness at the airport or my front door.
Nor would we see Religion anywhere.
Those Who Cannot Hear The Music Think The Dancer's Are Insane- Dawg D'Plumb Posted by: Dawg D'Plumb at May 8, 2004 04:20 AM
"When the police find found about 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device and two packages of marijuana seeds in your house, you know you're in trouble."
diesel fuel...Dangerous, but not unusual.
an igniting device...Dangerous & Unusual.
60 pounds of ammonium nitrate...Bad Intentions.
two packages of marijuana seeds...????????!!!
two packages of marijuana seeds...????????!!!
How did this nugget find it's way into the article. Obviously the afforementioned list of items can be used for malicious purposes.
What EVIL was Busch trying to unleash with his "two packages of marijuana seeds?"
Shoot, if he had grown the seeds and smoked the harvest, he might not have been so angry!
Irregardless, to list two packages of marijuana seeds in the same sentence with 60 pounds of ammonium nitrate, diesel fuel, an igniting device about a guy who wants to blow up a church is sensationalism and irresponsible journalism.
Quick Note: Mr. Busch, The Morman Religion is based on the idea that Joseph Smith found a lost testament of the bible written on tablets of gold in America during the 19th century. Oh Yeah, And Smith was the ONLY one to ever see them.
Did I mention you often hear Naive used as a synonym for Morman?
Ostracisation from these people made you want to blow them up? Personally hanging out with them would cause that reaction for me.
Besides, if we were going to start blowing up churches that base their reigions off made up stories, I would never see a Jehovah's Witness at the airport or my front door.
Nor would we see Religion anywhere.
Those Who Cannot Hear The Music Think The Dancer's Are Insane- Dawg D'Plumb Posted by: Dawg D'Plumb at May 8, 2004 04:20 AM
Dawg D'Plumb wrote:
"Quick Note: Mr. Busch, The Morman Religion is based on the idea that Joseph Smith found a lost testament of the bible written on tablets of gold in America during the 19th century. Oh Yeah, And Smith was the ONLY one to ever see them. Did I mention you often hear Naive used as a synonym for Morman?"
Rarely have so many errors been made in so few words. Mr. D'Plumb should read up on his history before opining on things of which he knows nothing.
Oh, and by the way, it's "Mormon", not "Morman". Fairly exposes how much our author knows about Mormons, doesn't it?
 Posted by: B. H. Roberts at May 8, 2004 06:48 PM
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Memoir by Prince
by Dagney 2 hours ago 2 Replies latest 4 minutes ago   jw friends
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Dagney
Dagney 2 hours ago

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/prince-to-publish-unconventional-memoir-in-2017-20160318
Hmmmm...I wonder if he will preach?
 
Listener
Listener 2 hours ago
I'm in no hurry to find out.
 
Richard_I
Richard_I 4 minutes ago
anthony morris will buy it the second it comes out and look at all the tight pant pictures

 

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California Electrician Dies After Falling 53 Stories...Possible JW and Suicide?
by JW GoneBad 22 minutes ago 1 Replies latest 13 minutes ago   watchtower bible
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JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 22 minutes ago

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-construction-worker-falls-from-l-a-high-rise-hits-cars-dies-20160317-story.html
Social media is saying that this individual was a Jehovah's Witness. Can someone from the Southern California area confirm this. They are saying this was not work related...but suicide.
 
Simon
Simon 13 minutes ago

Very sad for the family and the people involved.
The description I read made it sound like a suicide - they had a 6-9 foot wall round the work perimeter and he wasn't supposed to be above the 3rd level.
Tragic.
 

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Dealing with other versions of "the truth" ?
by man in black 5 years ago 2 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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man in black
man in black 5 years ago

My wife and I left the jw religion about two years ago. My reason was seeing the non-existent "brotherly love" in action when my Mom died.
Her reason was much the same after seeing how cold the witnesses can be, but she felt that she had outgrown the witness belief system.
So she bacame a mormon !
I have nothing to do with her beliefs, but once in a while I will attend a social gathering with her new friends.
Personally, I am in a search mode, looking closely at the religion I was raised in before becoming a jw.
She on the other hand has no problem jumping from one mind controlling group over to another..

I have made it very clear that I will never become a mormon, or have no intrest in studying their beliefs and mainly her friends have given me a wide berth whenever religion creeps into the conversations.
But last week it seems like I had a complete change.
There was a farewell party for a young couple from the church that were moving across country for a new job. It was held at someone's house and there must have been upwards of 50 + people there. Suddenly I felt like I was an unbeliever in the middle of a group of witnesses. You see, I was the only one present who was not a member of the mormon church. I noticed the same attitudes, and cliques just like the jw's,,,,, only I was on the receiving end this time.
How in the world do I deal with this .
The whole mormon belief system just fractures my thought process everytime I think about it,( baptism of the dead, polygamy in heaven, unreal some of the things they actually believe as fact)
Christmas is coming and certain ones seem to try the old witness trick of becoming my friend, and hopefully I will show an interest in the religion, but when I don't they just vanish.
 
Ding
Ding 5 years ago

Tell them "Merry Christmas" but "no thanks" on becoming a Mormon.
 
WingCommander
WingCommander 5 years ago

Yeah, I used to think JW beliefs were whacky, then I read up on Mormons and then Scientology. Nuts!!!!! Seriously, the JW beliefs are actually quite "tame" when compared to those other 2 cults.
It's quite funny though, we have a poster on here who's an X-Mormom and they post on here and another forum for X-Mormoms. They've stated many times how similar the stories are of treatment, history, beliefs, shunning, etc, etc are. It's like crossing into some sort of similar, but not quite the same parallel universe. Even some of the X-Mormon forums are set up like this one.
Weird to say the least, but it really solidifies the fact that these "American Cults" are so similar in tactics used, etc.
- Wing Commander
 

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Brownstoner: How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties
by AndersonsInfo 2 months ago 4 Replies latest a month ago   jw friends
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 2 months ago

http://www.brownstoner.com/blog/2016/01/jehovahs-witnesses-history-brooklyn-properties-selling/
How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Acquired Some of Brooklyn’s Most Insanely Valuable Properties by
Suzanne Spellen  1/26/16
The Jehovah’s Witnesses — aka the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society — first came to Brooklyn in 1908, in hopes of having their sermons syndicated in newspapers alongside the writings of the borough’s most famous pastors. It was under the Watchtower’s autocratic second leader, Joseph F. Rutherford, that the religious group truly began practicing the art of Brooklyn real estate.
This is the 100-year story of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses grew to be a global phenomenon and came to own some of Brooklyn’s most valuable properties.
Jehovah Witnesses History Brooklyn Joseph Rutherford<img class="size-full wp-image-219574" src="http://cdn.brownstoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/jehovah-witness-history-brooklyn-properties-joseph-rutherford.jpg" alt="Jehovah Witnesses History Brooklyn Joseph Rutherford" width="1000" height="667" />
Joseph Rutherford. Photo via Wikipedia
Joseph Rutherford, the Uncompromising Leader and Brilliant Propagandist
Joseph Rutherford was voted into office by the governing body of the Society, but he was dictatorial and autocratic — not the leader the Watchtower directors had imagined.
He angered many with his beliefs that faith should come before patriotism — a big no-no for the time, as World War I was raging halfway around the world. In May of 1918, the U.S. Attorney General called his writings and lectures “one of the most dangerous examples of propaganda” ever written, and his works were banned in Canada.
Rutherford claimed that 1918 was the year God was coming to claim his kingdom, and that the governments of the world and their “unrighteous” religions would come to an end.
Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties<img class="size-full wp-image-219314" src="http://cdn.brownstoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/jehovah-witness-history-brooklyn-properties-09.jpg" alt="Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties" width="1000" height="750" />
Rutherford’s 1918 prison mug shots. Photo via eBay
A Little Legal Trouble for the Witnesses
Rutherford and seven other Watchtower executives were arrested and charged under the 1917 Espionage Act for insubordination, disloyalty, refusal of duty in the armed services, and obstructing recruitment and enlistment. Seven men — including Rutherford — were sentenced to 20 years in prison.
The Society sold the Brooklyn Tabernacle building on Hicks Street, as well as the office furniture out of their main headquarters — Bethel — on Columbia Heights. The Society still owned the building, they told the press, but were likely to sell it “any day.”
The Brooklyn Eagle rejoiced, and a Watchtower member was quoted as saying, “I blame the Eagle for all of our troubles. It first attacked us years ago and never has ceased.”
But the Eagle crowed too soon.
In March of 1919, the Watchtower men were all released on bail, and the charges were dropped a year later. Rutherford had been re-elected as the head of the Society, and they were not going anywhere.
Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties<img class="size-full wp-image-219315" src="http://cdn.brownstoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/jehovah-witness-history-brooklyn-properties-01.jpg" alt="Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties" width="770" height="1000" />
Postcard of Bethel at 124 Columbia Heights. Photo via eBay
The Worldwide Growth of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
Between 1920 and Rutherford’s death in 1942, the organization grew to include millions of followers worldwide. This success and the Witnesses’ emphasis on studying printed materials — in 100 languages — meant that they needed to expand their Brooklyn operations dramatically.
Even in the very beginning, the Society relied on volunteers to operate the presses and staff shipping rooms. These volunteers dedicated years to their work and were paid only pennies, while living in dormitories and group housing. The Eagle saw this as a sure sign of cult behavior even in 1910.
Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties<img class="size-full wp-image-219317" src="http://cdn.brownstoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/jehovah-witness-history-brooklyn-properties-06.jpg" alt="Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties" width="667" height="1000" />
1955 Watchtower publication. Photo via eBay
Although the Watchtower Society looked like the organization Charles Russell began, the Rutherford years changed almost everything they believed in. He changed their name to Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1931 to differentiate them from the remaining Russellites — although the legal name remains the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
He was also responsible for the group’s practices that are frequently compared to cult behavior, including the shunning of holidays and birthdays, the banning of singing at services, and the requirement and sacred duty of door-to-door visits.
And the group continued to grow.
Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties<img class="size-full wp-image-219328" src="http://cdn.brownstoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/jehovah-witness-history-brooklyn-properties-10.jpg" alt="Jehovah Witness History Brooklyn Properties" width="1000" height="730" />
Squibb Building. Photo via Brooklyn Public Library
In 1927, the Watchtower had just finished a new printing plant at 117 Adams Street, the Eagle noted. The Society was tearing down the old Beecher house at 124 Columbia Heights, as well as the surrounding buildings and was building a new nine-story dormitory and headquarters on the large site. This would be the new Bethel world headquarters.

READ MORE: http://www.brownstoner.com/blog/2016/01/jehovahs-witnesses-history-brooklyn-properties-selling/
 +2 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 2 months ago

"Between 1920 and Rutherford’s death in 1942, the organization grew to include millions of followers worldwide."
Just to nitpick...this point is not quite accurate.
 +5 / -0
Terry
Terry a month ago

"He was also responsible for the group’s practices that are frequently compared to cult behavior, including the shunning of holidays and birthdays, the banning of singing at services, and the requirement and sacred duty of door-to-door visits."
I didn't know this.
Where can I find a citation supporting it?
I appreciate this subject and the airing of any details which expose the behind-the-curtain machinations of Watchtower leadership.
 +1 / -0
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a month ago

I am going to chime in on the nit picking...
Wasn't it Knorr and Franz who came down on Christmas and birthdays?
My mom was raised a JW - she was born in 1933. And she has books with "Merry Xmas" and "Happy Birthday" written in them given to her by her JW parents (very strict followers). I asked her about this and she said it wasn't really 'hard doctrine' until around the war. And Rutherford had very little influence - he was of poor health, was living out in California, and died in 1942.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a month ago
Those mugshots are probably the most accurate portrayal of Rutherford I've ever seen. :smirk:
 +1 / -0

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I Have a Rough Experience Story About Not Allowing Me to Celebrate Christmas
by Loi_241 3 months ago 0 Replies latest 3 months ago   watchtower beliefs
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Loi_241
Loi_241 3 months ago







I have a rough experience story to share with you:



January 2, 2006 – “Why I Want to Celebrate Christmas"

 
About Christmas that June, a devout Jehovah's Witness sister asked me of why I want to celebrate it.



June: Why do you want to celebrate Christmas?



I, Loi: Because of I want to receive the gifts.



June: Okay. Do you think that Christmas is in the Bible?



I, Loi: No.



June: God does not accept people celebrate Christmas yearly. So you need to keep your business by Christmas and make your own plan to invite someone for dinner, watching the movie, playing the games or whatever. Okay?
I, Loi: Okay.
June offered me to read the references with thesaurus and dictionary. But I did it. She thought that I didn’t do it. Then she drove me to home. Alright. Hey! What June said to me about Christmas is not matching Colossians 2:16, 17. She think she does match Colossians 2:16 but not. She judges, God does not accept people celebrate Christmas yearly. Hey June, Jesus Christ does not punish people celebrate whatever they felt they should be. They are God’s children and belong to the Christ. Like, what the scriptures Matthew 2:1-12 and Luke 2:6-35 tell you, June. Christ was born to reveal the world and that is exciting news. This is why we should celebrate “Christmas”, I’m not saying Santa Claus but Jesus is the gift. He is Saviour. So June, if you don’t accept Jesus is Saviour as 100% but accept Governing Body, then you will go to the hell anyway. Don’t, thus, tell me what I not to do. You can’t judge me celebrate Christmas. Got it?



January 7, 2006 – “Get No Gifts”



I, Loi: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses always complain about people celebrate Christmas?
Mother: I don’t know. I think it is really bad. Because of the Bible does not accept that.
Actually, it is in Matthew 2:11, 12 (Add to today scriptures Matthew 2:1-12 and Luke 2:6-35) explains about the three wise men went to see the baby Jesus with the gifts. This should fit Christmas.



I, Loi: If we don’t celebrate Christmas, what shall we do?



Mother (feeling angry): What do you mean “what shall we do?” Do you know why people celebrate Christmas?



I, Loi: Because of they want to get the gifts.



Mother: No, you are wrong! It’s not because of wanting to get the gifts. It is because of people believe that Jesus was born on December 25th. And that is the devil’s work! The Bible does not accept that!
I felt lonely in a Baby Shower. Because of none of them understand how I feel. I feel hurt and I cry. It’s not fair when Jehovah’s Witnesses say No to me celebrate Christmas. I’m 21 years old! (Now, I’m 30s something still my human right is abused by Jehovah’s Witnesses and my mother. I currently am fighting for freedom. It’s sad to see that Jehovah’s Witnesses taking advantage of freedom Oh, thanks America for allowing me to keep Jehovah’s Witness religion! and at the same time abuse someone’s right to join which religion they want. So Jehovah’s Witnesses though going to door to door, annoy the non-Jehovah’s Witnesses and convince them to believe that religion. Remember Galatians 5:19-21? Jehovah’s Witnesses will not inherit God’s Kingdom anyway.) They should free me! Bitches! Add to continue Mother: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses complain about people celebrate Christmas?



I, Loi: Because of they are getting tired of that.



Mother: Me too! I’m tired of Christmas.
Do you see the two Samples-June & Mother? They are judging people celebrate Christmas which not match Colossians 2:16, 17. As well as Jehovah’s Witnesses do judging Christmas celebrants, too. That’s sad.
But, I may be wrong about interpreting Colossians 2:16, 17. Have anyone know what that scripture means?
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Dealing with other versions of "the truth" ?
by man in black 5 years ago 2 Replies latest 5 years ago   jw friends
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man in black
man in black 5 years ago

My wife and I left the jw religion about two years ago. My reason was seeing the non-existent "brotherly love" in action when my Mom died.
Her reason was much the same after seeing how cold the witnesses can be, but she felt that she had outgrown the witness belief system.
So she bacame a mormon !
I have nothing to do with her beliefs, but once in a while I will attend a social gathering with her new friends.
Personally, I am in a search mode, looking closely at the religion I was raised in before becoming a jw.
She on the other hand has no problem jumping from one mind controlling group over to another..

I have made it very clear that I will never become a mormon, or have no intrest in studying their beliefs and mainly her friends have given me a wide berth whenever religion creeps into the conversations.
But last week it seems like I had a complete change.
There was a farewell party for a young couple from the church that were moving across country for a new job. It was held at someone's house and there must have been upwards of 50 + people there. Suddenly I felt like I was an unbeliever in the middle of a group of witnesses. You see, I was the only one present who was not a member of the mormon church. I noticed the same attitudes, and cliques just like the jw's,,,,, only I was on the receiving end this time.
How in the world do I deal with this .
The whole mormon belief system just fractures my thought process everytime I think about it,( baptism of the dead, polygamy in heaven, unreal some of the things they actually believe as fact)
Christmas is coming and certain ones seem to try the old witness trick of becoming my friend, and hopefully I will show an interest in the religion, but when I don't they just vanish.
 
Ding
Ding 5 years ago

Tell them "Merry Christmas" but "no thanks" on becoming a Mormon.
 
WingCommander
WingCommander 5 years ago

Yeah, I used to think JW beliefs were whacky, then I read up on Mormons and then Scientology. Nuts!!!!! Seriously, the JW beliefs are actually quite "tame" when compared to those other 2 cults.
It's quite funny though, we have a poster on here who's an X-Mormom and they post on here and another forum for X-Mormoms. They've stated many times how similar the stories are of treatment, history, beliefs, shunning, etc, etc are. It's like crossing into some sort of similar, but not quite the same parallel universe. Even some of the X-Mormon forums are set up like this one.
Weird to say the least, but it really solidifies the fact that these "American Cults" are so similar in tactics used, etc.
- Wing Commander
 

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Mormon Might try to converte me! Help!
by FiveShadows 7 years ago 23 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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FiveShadows
FiveShadows 7 years ago

Okay here's the deal. I work right now in homehealth. The family is Mormon. She (the mother) has invited me over to her place for dinner on wednesday (two days from now) and invited a few 'missionary's' over to join us, so that I could ask 'my questions' (that I don't have). Quite frankly, i'm against all forms of organized religion. However, I do stay at her house and take care of her child so I can't turn down the offer nor tear them up on their questions, but I definately don't want it to be another 'shepherding call' or some BS that's going to attempt to converte me over to their religion. So should they start pushing that button on me, i have no problem wanting to shut them up regardless of the mother being my Client. Here's the problem: I know nothing about Mormons, but I know a lot about Jws (tehe). I really need some help in askng some hard questions that would stump them like crazy IF they push my 'join our religion' button. i'm not trying to be mean, infact, to the contrary I want to be peaceful. I informed the mother tha tI would arrive with a branch of peace, nor a stick of war. So, I do want to keep it peaceful, but should they push me to the limit, I don't want to have nothing to say. I don't want to be cornered either. Does anyone have any questions about the mormon religion? That is equally comparable to the jehovahs religion ...such as how can Jesus be king in 1914 when in the book of mt 28 he stated 'all power here on heaven and earth has been given to me?' which is pretty self explainatory about being a king. I mean does this make sense? I mean Mormons don't believe that, but the question is pretty solid. And i'm looking for solid questions like that, that would stump them. Make sense?
Fs
p.s. If you're a mormon now, i hold nothing against you, but Just as we don't want jws' trying to converte us, I feel that way towards ALL religion.
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 7 years ago

Five shadows...here are just a few things to take note of.
Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
I think they believe god lives on Jupiter. Don't JWs teach god lives on Pleides?
They think the mark of Cain is that god turned them black.

Anyway, here's some info.

&feature=related

I have known some Mormons and they were very nice people. I have known some JWs and they were nice, too.
But personally, I think if you ask questions about religion, "challenging" or not, it shows you have some interest and might be a potential convert. I think JWs would take it the same way.
I would change the subject, if possible.
 
Kudra
Kudra 7 years ago

Ask them about the genetic evidence linking the Native Americans most closely with Asians and NOT with Jews.
Also ask them where ANY archeological evidence of the tales of the Book of Mormon are...
 
dogon
dogon 7 years ago

Tell them that if they can not show you the golden tablets and special rocks in the hat that lets you read the writing, you will not give them a dime. Also you want your Jesus jammies or its all off.
 
poppers
poppers 7 years ago

Why not politely inform them that you aren't interested in any religion at this time?
 
thebigdebate
thebigdebate 7 years ago

Same scam different Founder !!!

thebigdebate
 
parakeet
parakeet 7 years ago

Try this. It's worked for me with my dub family over the years -- simply refuse to talk about it. Just say that religion is a very personal subject for you, and that you never discuss your beliefs with anyone. Be sure to thank them for their understanding and kindness in respecting your feelings. Unless they're rabid about converting others, that should shut them up. If they rudely persist, tell them they may discuss their religion among themselves, if they wish, but you would rather not be a part of the discussion.
The idea is not to engage with them right from the start. Then they'll have nothing they can batter you over the head with. Good luck.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 7 years ago


Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brother
Only in the sense that we are all children of God, Jesus being the firstborn. Satan just never made it to earth and received a physical body.

I think they believe god lives on Jupiter. Don't JWs teach god lives on Pleides?
Wrong. That will just give their missionaries something to laugh at.

They think the mark of Cain is that god turned them black.
Like a lot of American Christian churches 100 years ago, previously it was taught that African Americans carried the mark of Cain. That is no longer the case.
I've attended many mormon meetings and have many mormon friends. Just have a friendly dinner and be direct but polite. If they ask you if you would like to know more about the mormon church, just say, maybe....but you would like to do the research yourself. Just be firm....most of the ones I know aren't pushy. Again, ask any questions you might have, but let them know you'll do the investigating on your own. I agree with POPPERS -" inform them that you aren't interested in any religion at this time"
One more thought ... a good weasel out line is: "I'm not prepared to make any appointments now or in the near future" (in other words, don't contact me, I'll contact you)
 
jgnat
jgnat 7 years ago


However, I do stay at her house and take care of her child so I can't turn down the offer
Why, yes you can. It's called saying, "No thank you. I am allergic to missionaries with my peas. It gives me indigestion." Or something similar. How does employment in their home in any way obligate you to convert to their religion, or accept all their requests for greater intimacy, or to be an object of their missionary efforts?

I definately don't want it to be another 'shepherding call' or some BS that's going to attempt to converte me over to their religion.
I never give a strange JW my phone number on first meeting. I try and apply the same behavior I would with any new relationship. Just because they may be pushy or have an agenda doesn't mean you have to cave to it.

I really need some help in askng some hard questions that would stump them like crazy.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed. You know your bible. If you hear something that you know is way off, call them on it. You will hear some trigger words from your own background. For instance, they may suggest an obligation to obey God's will or to follow the bible. If you have worked through your own "deprogramming" you should have answers for that. You can bring up that you follow your own conscience.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon316.htm
 
FiveShadows
FiveShadows 7 years ago

Thank you for the informative comments. I was hoping a little more on their specific beliefs and the contradictory factors. The video definately helped. It is true that I don't need to go along because my client is a mormon. I totally agree. I just don't want this dinner to turn ugly! At which point I want inform them that as a last resort. I don't in anyway want to turn this into a heated debate, but in the same aspect I'm not going to get my 'will broken' I don't know what is going to happen, although I feel it's the bad version than the good. Well see. No exmormons here? =( thats okay
Fs
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 7 years ago


Why not politely inform them that you aren't interested in any religion at this time?

Exactly! They are breaking employment laws, if they expect you to listen to their cult drivel in order to remain an employee. It's called religious discrimination.
On the other hand, what you're doing reeks of dishonesty. What's your purpose in leading them on? To provide the best home health care as a secular employee,
or to sabotage beliefs that you admittedly haven't a clue about? Why instigate trouble at a workplace, for any reason?
What's your desired outcome — once you point out the fables and foibles of Mormonism? Do you have something better to offer them instead? Obviously not.

Personally, I'd focus squarely on the responsibilities of the job at hand that I was hired for, and leave religion entirely out of it.

If you have no intention of joining their religion, talk to your employer about this illegal conduct. They have a responsibility to protect your rights. Self-employed?
Quit this client and find clients who won't preach at you. Home health care is one of the few areas that's booming right now in this down economy.
If their religion is just not for you, state it.
"I was hired to do X, Y, and Z and I intend to do my best in performing those healthcare job duties, regardless of religious affiliation. Please respect that and kindly
refrain from preaching at me. If you chose to fire me for my beliefs (or lack of beliefs), I will promptly lawyer-up and sue your a$$ into the ground."
Simple. No head games required.
~Sue
 
carla
carla 7 years ago

Why don't you check out some of the ex Mormon boards? see what they have to say. Try the Mormon Curtain, that one looked like it had quite a large group of people and also has general info on what Mormon's believe. (I hope that is the one I am thinking of, my regular computer not working so I am working off memory)
 
Jim_TX
Jim_TX 7 years ago

I may be able to relate - since my aunt (now deceased) was a Mormon, and her daughter is a Mormon.
When I started visiting my aunt, I made it clear that I was no longer a JW, and had no interest in any religion - nor would I discuss religion with anyone. She agreed to that, and we had many many pleasant visits.
Her daughter and son-in-law would go to church on Sunday mornings, and would sometimes get over to my aunt's house before I left to get back home, and we would also visit.
In general Mormons are very nice people. I even visited their new 'temple' that they built locally - at the request of my Aunt - who was proud of it - and what it stood for. I think it is from that visit that they got my name and address - which prompted a couple of Mormons to come knocking on my door many months later. I told them I wasn't interested in discussing religion with them - they asked a couple of questions - but I wouldn't engage in debate with them - so they left.
If it were me - I wouldn't sweat it. I would plainly state that I had no interest in the Mormon religion - or ANY religion - and stay with that. No need to try to debate them - or discredit their beliefs.
Regards,
Jim TX
 
cameo-d
cameo-d 7 years ago

This is "inner circle" stuff...but they have some strange rituals.
You might want to check out this link about some of the naked touching ceremonies they have in the baptism for the dead rituals:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/170556/1/Touchy-Feely-Church-Ritual

Oh, and this is quite a dramatic change from being in a Kingdom Hall. Look at the glamor in their Temples.
....and some really odd things, too.


&feature=related
 
Tuesday
Tuesday 7 years ago

"So I'm supposed to believe Joseph Smith somehow dug up golden tablets in New York City that no one had found yet, he read them with magic spectacles, then when he was done reading the tablets they were brought to heaven?"
That would be my question. Then again the simple response of "I'm not interested in religion right now, I was a Jehovah's Witness and rather hurt by religion. I might be ready in time to think about other religions, but right now I'm not ready. I'll ask you questions if I ever feel I am ready" will probably work better.
 
civicsi00
civicsi00 7 years ago

If you want to engage them, then you have to be ready to point out the errors/contradictions.
If you don't, then be polite and tell them that you're not interested in any religion at the moment.
They really are nice people. I had a talk with two of them (an older guy and a kid in his 20's), and after my discussion with them (asking them about proof that the Native Americans are related to the peoples mentioned in the book of Mormon, etc.) they never came back. I don't have much experience dealing with them, but it seems they're not too fond of critical thinking when they can't prove stuff.
 
momzcrazy
momzcrazy 7 years ago

I grew up in SLC Utah, surrounded by Mormons. My husband's late Grandpa was in the Quorum of the Twelve. I am directly related to Brigham Young, and my ancestor is the architect of the Salt Lake temple.
Their beliefs are really cooky. So it may be easier to politely tell them you aren't interested. We've heard it enough, should be able to say it too!
I agree that the Mormons are generally nice people. I like their family values, and classes for homemaking, childrearing, etc. They encourage girls to go to college and get degrees. This is usually done while their boyfriends are on their missions. That way they can work and support them after marriage so they can finish their education. The majority of my classmates have gone to college, married as adults, and have good careers.
Much to both of my grandpa's disappointment, I won't even consider Mormonism since we left Dubdom.
 
Kenneson
Kenneson 7 years ago

Nice chandeliers and mirrors and sort of plush furnishings. I found their baptismal font rather interesting.
It's probably based on 1 Kings 7:25
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 7 years ago

You could just tell them to feck off?
 
parakeet
parakeet 7 years ago

If Qcmbr (a Mormon, as he often points out) still posts here, he'll probably explode if he reads this, but ......
For a well-researched and interesting book about the LDS and the really scary fundamentalist sects (FLDS) that have spun off from it, read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. He's a well-known and respected author who has done his homework about Mormons, their history and their beliefs. Krakauer was the first to bring the name of the now-notorious alleged polygamist and child molester, Warren Jeffs, to the attention of the U.S. public.
 

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Mormon Might try to converte me! Help!
by FiveShadows 7 years ago 23 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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FormerMormon
FormerMormon 7 years ago

As a former mormon and former lds missionary, I can tell you some good stumpers.
I HOPE they gave you a book of moron
The BOM is supposed to be a 1000 year history of god's dealings with ancient american hebrews. Christ came to these people. They had more truths, more gospel than we do. Jeebus gave the Nephites higher knowledge that was written up and sealed within Josephs mystical magic gold plates. (mention the 2/3rds of the golden plates that were sealed and are to be translated and revealed when we as a people are more worthy.)
Anyway, if the Nephites and Lamanites (competing hebrew factions) had so much gospel knowledge, please show me where the bom talks about the word of wisdom (coffee, tobacco, alcohol). Where does it mention our existence as spirits in the pre earth life? Where does it mention eternal marriage or baptisms for the dead or temple work.
The bom doesn't mention any of that because these MAJOR LDS themes hadn't been created in Joseph's Myths head yet. At best, they can point out a "scripture" that references god's plan existing before the foundations of this world.
So much for the bom having the "fullness of the gospel" if it doesn't even mention these MAJOR LDS themes. If they say that it DOES have the fullness of the gospel, then just say "then we really don't need the word of wisdom, or baptism for the dead, or temple marriage or pre earth life knowledge, or knowledge of the three degrees of heaven in order to be good with god, Right???
Here's some other fun:
Pretend you are just so very interested in geneology like the mormons. Have a great great grandparents name and birthdate in mind (and hopefully region or state of birth) Have them take you to the church geneology website to "look up my family". (familysearch.org) Ooh and aah at it if they find some of your geneology on line. Then key in another name:
Joseph Smith
Born 1805 in Vermont
The first name should come up with a son of a bitch born dec 23
Click on the son of a bitch and scroll through all the names of his wives.
"Oh my, was he married to all these ladies?", you ask.
Click on Helen Mar Kimball
"Oh my, she was only 14???"
Click on Zina Huntington
"Oh my, she was already married to Henry. Can women concurrently marry two men in your church?"
Click on
Mary Rollins or
Sylvia Sessions or
Prescendia Huntington
(they were ALL already and concurrently married).
The vast majority of his wives died as faithful members of the church. Many spoke openly of the sexual nature of their concurrent marriage to their first husband and Joseph. Some wondered who the father of their child was. Others like Sylvia Sessions knew from the start that her daughter JOSEPHINA was joes kid and not from her husband Windsor.
Zina's is a really freaky story. Henry marries her first, then Joe. Joe gets his ass shot. Brigham Marries zina when the Nauvoo temple was completed with HENRY watching the whole ceremony. Many speculate Henry thought the marriage would be as things were before. Joe was willing to share other mens wives. Brigham Young wasn't willing to share. Brigham preplanned, pre meditated and pre married Zina. He then sent Henry on a foreign mission and took Zina while he was gone. Henry didn't find out till he came back from England. He yearned for Zina all his days. And Zina, she got a rare rotation amongst Brighams 50+ wives.
Zina and her Sister Prescendia were the only "already marrieds" who were required to leave their first husbands and marry "apostles" after joe died.
I could go on...
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 7 years ago

D*mn! I thought you meant more men were trying to convert you.
 
Quirky1
Quirky1 7 years ago

You might try three men a nite instead.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 7 years ago

I think you should just be honest and tell them you aren't really interested in their religion, but you would love to know more about them and their families, maybe even the story of how they or their families came into the church. Get them talking about themselves and they will probably consider it a 'testimony' and be able to figure they did their job. That is a lot of what the "Every Member a Missionary" program is about. Simply fellowshipping so that the gentile (non-member=JW 'worldly people') knows that the LDS(mormons) aren't freaks that sacrifice their children to Mormon or something or marrying off their pre-teens to old men. Much of what the LDS church does in its missionary work goes beyond 'converting' and is trying to be considered 'normal' in the community. Let them show you how normal they are, what their plans are for school or their sweethearts or whatever.
 

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okay here's the deal.
i work right now in homehealth.
the family is mormon.



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As a struggling JW, how easy was it to dismiss the Mormonism Truth claim?
by Noggin 10 years ago 3 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Noggin
Noggin 10 years ago

I am running into a few people on this board who are really struggling with trying to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses. I want to post a question that might be beneficial.
If you struggled with leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses, why didn't you struggle with the Mormon exclusivity claim? If you do not know about Mormonism, the founder, Joseph Smith claims to have seen god in 1820. In Smith's own words:
"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them..."
This is the core basis of testimony for millions of devout Mormons. They will not tell you that they think they have God's truth, they know that they have it. And they know that all other religions are in error. Did you or Do you struggle with that? I assume that you do not.
As a devout Mormon up until 2 years ago, I never agonized over the JW's claim that they were the only true church. Why? And why don't JW's agonize over Mormonism? That is a great question. It has much to do with indoctrination.
I can tell you that there is huge agonizing going on in most ex Mormon minds upon contemplating leaving Mormonism. Major confliction, major fear about what it means to be cut off from the Mormon god if they leave. There are huge hesitations. It takes many ex Mormons years of studying the flaws in order to finally disassociate enough to the point where they can break free. Years of research, pouring over books and documents fighting of the cognitive dissonance time and again.
Yet, will you so casually disregard Mormonism? You should. And you should reverse the logic and apply it to the Jehovah's Witnesses. You should be able to dismiss the Jehovah's Witnesses truth claim as easily as I do.
This might help a few currently struggling JW's with some inkling of perspective. If this is not helpful, I am interested as to why.
Noggin
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago

point taken...Wish there was a site like this one on Mormonism.
 
atypical
atypical 10 years ago

That's a good point. Those of us who struggled during our exit worried only that Jehovah as we had been taught to know him would think badly of us. We did not worry that the Mormon version of God had never liked us according to their teaching. Or how about the Jesus that some believe is God? According to that belief, we had been worshipping wrong and displeasing him. Or what about Ahura Mazda, the central god of Zoroastrians? As a witness, I'm sure none of us were quite getting it right as far as good old Mazda was concerned. It helps to show how deeply one can be indoctrinated.
 
Rooster
Rooster 10 years ago

Noggin  good post.. great question.. "We have the truth!" Just shout that a couple of hundred times..
 

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Phone Call to my Mormon Aunt- she used to be a JW-It was wonderful.
by QuestioningEverything 8 years ago 8 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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QuestioningEverything
QuestioningEverything 8 years ago

I have an aunt who is one year younger than me, she's my mom's youngest sister.. We have always been very close and were more like sisters. We were both baptised as a JW and were always together. Around 2002, she became inactive Then she got baptised as a Mormon in 2004! Me being the good little witness I was told her that I couldn't associate with her any more because of that. It was such a difficult and hard thing to do but I thought I was doing the right thing.
Fastforward to 2008- I now see that my belief system is not as I was taught. I decided to call her this weekend and make amends. It was wonderful- we both cried, laughed and are going to meet up with our families. I missed her so much. The thing is though, my mother is completely involved in the KH. She would be devastated to know I am in touch with her again just because of the Mormon thing. My mom has a big family and I'm not quite sure how to handle this. Any thoughts?
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 8 years ago

The thing is though, my mother is completely involved in the KH. She would be devastated to know I am in touch with her again just because of the Mormon thing. My mom has a big family and I'm not quite sure how to handle this. Any thoughts?
It depends on whether your aunt was df'd. If she was, you could be df'd as well for "bad association". If that happens, will your mom shun you? If not, she could also be df'd. It's just another way to control the sheep and keep them from learning the truth about te "truth".
 
burningbridges
burningbridges 8 years ago

wow is your aunt either desperate for controlled religion or following men to these compounds? I cant believe someone would go from JW to mormon!!!! crazy!! I say go for it though, so what what your mom says, this is about you and your aunt, not your mom....
 
Wordly Andre
Wordly Andre 8 years ago

you are 39 and still worried what your mom will say? and you wrote you are no longer a member of the JW's so I think your mom will just have to deal with it, I mean it's not like she can send you to your room for talking to family. Family is Family dispite what the org teaches.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

Going from JW to Mormon is like going from the frying pan into the wok. She can get "disfellowshipped" in the mormon faith as well and it's the exact same thing she experienced as a JW.
 
justhuman
justhuman 8 years ago

I just can't understand how many ex-jw's are going from one mind controled cult to another.....doesn't make sense to me. Some they have addiction to the "hypnosis"that cults are doing on them. They are like drug addicts or alchool addicted persons. They just can't brake free from the bonds
 
jaguarbass
jaguarbass 8 years ago

At least if she can evolve to being a male morman, she can get her own planet and be god there.
 
Gayle
Gayle 8 years ago

Wonderful to be able to meet up with your aunt again. Best wishes! Will your mom have to know? But be cautious as Mormons are just as much out to convert you as JWs are out to do. So, maybe it's time to start checking out an ex-Mormon Discussion Forum also. Take care.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

At some stage you need to move on from living for others and live for yourself. This may including things that upset others, including family. I think it is wonderful you are in touch with your Aunt and would continue to speak to her. Don't go out of your way to let your mother know, but if she finds out, so be it. You don't even need to say how you feel about the WTS, you could simply say you feel it is unchristian to shun family; certainly Jesus would not have behaved in such a way.
 

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I got an invite to take a tour of the new Mormon temple
by I quit! 11 years ago 19 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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I quit!
I quit! 11 years ago

This is the only time a non-Mormon can get to see the inside of one of them. Once they are consecrated (I think that is what they call it) you can't get in unless you are a Mormon wearring the special underwear and other requirements. Even Mormons don't get in there very often. I'm thinking of going. Any thoughts?
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago


I'd go for sure. See if one of them will teach you the secret handshake.
GBL
 
Dustin
Dustin 11 years ago

It would be cool to check out what is so mysterious about the place. I would go, why not?
 
the_classicist
the_classicist 11 years ago

Take some pics and post 'em here, eh. It would be interesting and I'm sure it would be allowed as they let the media do it with video cameras before it is consecrated.
 
undercover
undercover 11 years ago


Say "Hi!" to the Grand Poobah for us...

a to anyone who can name the reference
 
talesin
talesin 11 years ago


Simpsons, when Homer joined the Buffalo(?) Lodge.
so, do I win???

Oh, yes, and by all means .. GO! It will be an interesting experience, and hey, what bad can come of it. Just put on your "Shield of Righteousness" before you go, and the demunz can't get ya!
t
 
undercover
undercover 11 years ago

Nope, not Homer(unless the Simpsons where paying homage to an earlier show)
 
talesin
talesin 11 years ago


Yes, I knew Simpsons was a take-off. hmm,, okay, Archie Bunker was a member of a lodge, and had a Grand Poobah,,, wasn't it the dad from Happy Days? But I don't know if that is the original.
t
 
heathen
heathen 11 years ago

I'm going to say Happy Days . Thats the only time I've heard the term grand poohbah.
 
undercover
undercover 11 years ago


Hell, maybe I'm confused, cause now that ya'll mention it, I do remember Happy Days using the term also...
but I was thinking of Fred Flintstone and the Water Buffalo Lodge.
 
I quit!
I quit! 11 years ago


I'd go for sure. See if one of them will teach you the secret handshake.
GBL I'll take a hand buzzer, see if it gets a laugh.
 
talesin
talesin 11 years ago


Ah, I love Google --- you guys are both right! Mr. Cunningham was a grand poobah, and the Flintstones' Fred was a member of a lodge with a Grand Poobah too.
Archie did belong to a lodge, but no Grand Poobah, so I am wrong, wrong, wrong!
t
 
I quit!
I quit! 11 years ago

Take some pics and post 'em here, eh. It would be interesting and I'm sure it would be allowed as they let the media do it with video cameras before it is consecrated. Good idea if I go I'll take my cell phone and take pictures if they let me.
 
I quit!
I quit! 11 years ago


Ah, I love Google --- you guys are both right! Mr. Cunningham was a grand poobah, and the Flintstones' Fred was a member of a lodge with a Grand Poobah too.

Archie did belong to a lodge, but no Grand Poobah, so I am wrong, wrong, wrong!
What about the Honeymooners? What was the title of Ralph's fearless leader?
 
undercover
undercover 11 years ago

Ralph and Ed were in the Racoon lodge but I don't remember the leader's name... haha....found it.... " Grand High Exhalted Mystic Ruler."
 
I quit!
I quit! 11 years ago

haha....found it.... " Grand High Exhalted Mystic Ruler." Your quick Undercover!
 
undercover
undercover 11 years ago

Like Talesin said... ya gotta love Google...
 
El Kabong
El Kabong 11 years ago

When the Mormon Temple opened in Washington DC, they had the temple open to outsiders for a period of time. But, when they closed it to the public, they took down all of the "adornements" and had them replaced, saying that the unclean had touched them, therefore they have to be replaced.
 
katiekitten
katiekitten 11 years ago


Oh I would go for sure, just out of sheer nosiness. I hate a secret!
Let us know what its like (unless you come back a mormon, in which case Hasta La vista baby)
 
Golf
Golf 11 years ago

Go man, go. Don't pass up an opportunity of this kind, go, don't ask.

Golf
 

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