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Caleb & Sophia video Getting Big Coverage
by freemindfade a year ago 17 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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freemindfade
freemindfade a year ago

Wow, I am kind of surprised the amount of attention this appalling video is getting from the media. Not surprised because it is appalling but that something that I grew up with was encapsulated in a cartoon and is exposing the witnesses publicly for mind control.
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jehovah-witnesses-video-slammed-threats-kids-article-1.2116873
 
StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel a year ago
The funny thing is that this somewhat came up this weekend. As it turns out, this isn't the first time they try this. While it wasn't as obvious before, it did happen. Check the "My book of Bible Stories". There is a chapter called "The boy who fell asleep". Speaks of a time when Paul was getting ready to leave a certain place and everyone stayed up until late, listening to him. Someone (can't remember if it was a boy for sure) fell asleep and fell down a window from a 3rd floor. They show how he was resurrected but the WTBTS adds the following phrase at the end... "You can be sure he did not fall asleep again".

 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a year ago

WTBTS: "You can be sure he did not fall asleep again"
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Seriously now, all he had to do was to stay away from the window.
 
freemindfade
freemindfade a year ago

I like this version

 +2 / -0
Oubliette
Oubliette a year ago
Let's review: It's a cult!

 +1 / -1
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a year ago
Don't mean to be a nitpick but there's a typo in the last word of the 4th paragraph.
 
Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower a year ago

That is one sick video that reflects the sick minds of the Governing Body who feel they are God's Organization and must be listened to and obeyed or else.
These guys on the GB are very sick mentally or to put it in words they understand,"mentally diseased over their claims to be the faithful and discreet discombobulated slave.
They need to make more videos like this:







 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a year ago

Village Idiot
Not my handy work, but check out the others, hilarious, I think Job is my favorite.
http://www.reddit.com/r/mybookofbs

 +1 / -0
AFRIKANMAN
AFRIKANMAN a year ago
Eutychus did fall asleep at meetings after this incident but he didn't sit near the window again. Sorry point already mentioned [to bloody fast some of you ]
 
brandnew
brandnew a year ago



Another scared little girl.....
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Maybe they should address the issue of WHY kids (and adults) fall asleep in the first place??!!
Because it is pointless , mindless, time wasting drivel.....
 +3 / -0
brandnew
brandnew a year ago

DUDE ! ! ! I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A SHOW OF HANDS.....OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP AT A JW MEETING.
that would take up alotta space......
 +2 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a year ago

Its the same crap over and over and over, for years. The speakers are generally not really qualified to speak publicly and sound very indifferent about the talks they give. Thats why it seems like such a charge when a CO comes to visit, they have energy and are trying to indoctrinate people, not just get it over with.
The watchtower is way too long, beating these things out into an hour is painful at best.
The whole theocratic ministry school has become pointless. How much do you really need to talk about this crap? Besides standing by a cart and early morning magazine carpeting needs little training. Also I think its a testament to how this is a waste, ask a JW at a cart a tough question and see how equipped they are.
I regret all the time ive wasted at meeting, service, and assemblies. And the time I will continue to waste at meetings and assemblies ( no more service for me) in the future for my wifes sake.
 +3 / -0
cappytan
cappytan a year ago

The watchtower is way too long, beating these things out into an hour is painful at best.
Wholeheartedly agree. I was so bored last meeting I decided to read Dean Koontz on my tablet instead, and I still gave a comment.
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a year ago

cappytan
hahhaha excellent, I want to be like you when I grow up lol. You have got some of the best stories.




You know its funny, years ago in a hall I was in, I was reaching out, I worked full time, I was married, I did not get the national average in hours. it was 10, I probably averaged 6... these brothers wouldn't even use you unless you got the national average. Much less recommend for MS. My brother who was an elder used to get into with them. He would say someone could come into the congregation, never go out in service, and turn in 10 false hours and you would use them! basically telling them their obsession with the hours was unfounded. Now with my own turning in fake time later in my life, and cappytan answering while reading koontz, it just shows how hollow and empty their spiritual paradise is, most the people I know that got to MS and elder status would give talks off the cuff, no thought or care put into it at all, they would get less hours than me (once they were appointed), All the R&F that are zealous are sitting there eating this watered down crap up, cappytans comment, a talk from an elder with a hangover that he is winging, and so on. So empty.
 
Oubliette
Oubliette a year ago



cappytan: I decided to read Dean Koontz on my tablet instead
Dean's the bomb! Which book?
I'm a huge fan of his. Problem is: he can somehow write books faster than I can find enough time to read 'em!

 
cappytan
cappytan a year ago

Dean's the bomb! Which book?
I'm reading some of his older Sci Fi stuff right now.
Dark of the Woods was the one I was reading on Sunday. Really short novel. More like a novella or novellette. Finished it Sunday evening. It was a good escape. Nothing to write home about.
I had yesterday off, so I started Stephen King's Tommyknockers.
 
thedepressedsoul
thedepressedsoul a year ago

That's the risk they're taking with JW.org and JW Broadcasting.
While they try to downplay everything on JW.org things like this will always slip through that shows their true colors.
 

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Mormon view of JW.ORG
by konceptual99 a year ago 42 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

Does anyone have any links to how the Mormons (or ex Mormons for that matter) view the changes that the WTS has made over recent years, especially the growth of JW.ORG and characters like Caleb & Sophia?
Have they noticed? Do they see similarities? Do they care?
I've tried some searches but not come up with anything.
 
roberto avon
roberto avon a year ago

what you just asked is really interesting and I am very curious about the comments.
Nobody calls them Mormons anymore.
In Italy they are called " The church of Jesus Christ's saints of the last days ( sorry for the translation ) certainly more appealing than " Christian congregation of Jehovah's witnesses ".
Are the Jws doing the same rebranding with jworg????
 
cappytan
cappytan a year ago

@Roberto: They still call themselves Mormon here in the US. The main denomination's official name has been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints since around 1838. But there are other denominations that are also considered Mormon, but they are of a different organization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormons

 
Simon
Simon a year ago

Groups will hardly ever be critical of another group that is very similar to themselves. How can they when any criticism will be just as applicable to themselves?
That's why they tend to focus on mainstream religion and Catholicism instead or stick to criticizing the worlds governments.
They never want to point fingers that can be easily turned back toward them.
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago
Very true Simon but people on this group and others have picked up in similarities between Mormon and JW use of the internet. I just wondered if there was any evidence of the parallels being seen from the other direction.
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

Mormon study about the growth rate of JW's , SDA's and Mormons here
http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=view_other_articles&story_id=497&cat_id=30

 +2 / -0
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions a year ago
Really interesting study! Thanks for the link, INSIDE.
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago

What impresses me about the above study is the honesty.
No spin, spin, spin like we are used to from the JWs.
In spite of all the spin and the "get out there and preach!" The SDA still leads the JWs and with a much more laid back approach. Go figure!
 
dozy
dozy a year ago

Interesting study from link posted by "insidetheKH" - thanks.
I suspect that the Mormon's don't really care much about JWs or waste much time copying their methods. Why would they? - it is generally speaking a pretty amateurish organisation on lots of levels. But conversely , the Society do seem to have copied a lot of Mormon ideas - "family study evening" etc.
The JW.org website looks very similar to Mormon.org. I showed a website designer who works for my company the two sites and he looked at some of the embedded code & was convinced that the WTBTS had copied some of the functionality and coding from the Mormon site. Apparently it is very common in website design & very difficult to categorically prove - all you do is change a line of coding here or there. Nothing new there of course , as the Society have pinched artwork from Christendom for years.
 
Simon
Simon a year ago

I think both groups are after the same customer base which is why they converge in a similar approach. Whatever one does that appears to be working is picked up and copied by the other.
It seems like the LDS have been more successful than the WTS which is why the latter do more of the copying from the former.
 
cappytan
cappytan a year ago

I'm sorry, but I have to say something. I'm as anti-JW as the next apostate.
However, whoever thinks that Mormon.org and JW.org look similar, either cosmetically or in the code, doesn't know what they're talking about.
All HTML code looks similar from one website to another if the persons writing the code know what they're doing.
 +1 / -0
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago



Millie said: "In spite of all the spin and the "get out there and preach!" The SDA still leads the JWs and with a much more laid back approach. Go figure!"
Not really. In Africa there are a lot of SDA's but if you look at the 2011 statistics per country you see that in most of the European countries JW's have a massive lead compared to SDA's and Mormons

few examples
Germany
MEMBERSHIP
Latter-day Saint: 38,668
Seventh Day Adventist: 35,119
Jehovah's Witness: 165,387
Italy MEMBERSHIP
Latter-day Saint: 24,443
Seventh Day Adventist: 9,315
Jehovah's Witness: 245,657
France MEMBERSHIP
Latter-day Saint: 36,403
Seventh Day Adventist: 12,849
Jehovah's Witness: 123,277
Russia MEMBERSHIP
Latter-day Saint: 21,418
Seventh Day Adventist: 50,027
Jehovah's Witness: 165,447
Greece MEMBERSHIP
Latter-day Saint: 740
Seventh Day Adventist: 559
Jehovah's Witness: 29,143
Poland MEMBERSHIP
Latter-day Saint: 1,716
Seventh Day Adventist: 5,781
Jehovah's Witness: 126,196
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago

I was thinking of overall membership but you are right about Europe.
Why do you think that is? I was thinking because of WW II and all the Purple Triangles stuff maybe?
 
joe134cd
joe134cd a year ago
I actually asked some mormon missionaries about the two similar Web sights. They didn't know about it and seemed unfazed by it.
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@millie i think because of a combination of secularisation and the preaching work. Churches are running empty in Europe the traditional denominations are dying. A lot of people are dissapointed in their churches, church leaders and teachings.
besides that SDA's do not preach so are not well known in Europe. Mormons do preach but only a very few (only young american missionaries for a two year period). The rest of the Mormons in a country do not go door to door. There are only about 80,000 mormon missionaries worldwide.

Contrary to that all JW's in a country preach and go door to door. So those dissapointed church people are not visited by SDA's or Mormons. Instead of that they are visited by JW's,.. not foreign JW's or missionaries but just local JW's that speak their european languages and are familar with the country and local customs.
That is why there is a difference in Europe between member figures of JW's , Mormons and SDA's

 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

Yup, credit where credit's due...
...Mormon and Adventists missionaries ain't got nothin' of the WTS when it comes to Third-World conversions.
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago
Now we need a breakdown of effort spent vs.membership gained (and held)!
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@millie why would you need that?

 
sir82
sir82 a year ago



Now we need a breakdown of effort spent vs.membership gained
Not hard to do.
In the mid 90's, JWs spent about 1 billion hours (collectively) in field service, and the number of newly baptized was around 360,000.
20 years later, JWs spent nearly 2 billion hours in field service, and about 275,000 were newly baptized.
Double the effort, 25% fewer recruits.

 +2 / -0
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@sir82 but that does not tell us what you think it does.
For example JW's were forbidden in the former Soviet Union and East European states. So after 1990 the bans were lifted and Jehovah's Witnesses became a legal religion. The result,.. phenomenal growth during the years that followed,.. the 90's,
So the higher number of baptisms and growth can be explained easily it was not because of a certain amount of hours and effort but because of other political circumstances and improved human rights. So after that initial high growth and peak in those countries the situation normalised and a a normal growth rate remained.
Also times change. For example, during the 80's and 90's in many countries there were more people at home during the day than there are nowadays because of more traditional values and customs during previous decades. But today in many countries both males and females have full time jobs.
The result,... when you are out in service during the mornings a lot of doors wont open. It does not mean that people are less receptive...or that it take more hours now to convince a person,... but they are simply not at home.
That is why for example this year they are poundering in the KM (see for example the KM of April 2015) on field service at night or the late afternoon and through mobile carts.
 

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Mormon view of JW.ORG
by konceptual99 a year ago 42 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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millie210
millie210 a year ago

Very interesting sir82.
And those results are supposedly with angelic direction.
Meanwhile the SDA are at well over twice the members - almost triple and with far less effort expended.
insidetheKH: "need" is probably a figure of speech in this case. Mostly I am wondering what the heck I have been doing for the last many years! I am leaving a religion that I gave a lot of time equity to. I pioneered at different points as I was able, the last being a 9 yr run just before I gave up.
Was anything I did then meaningful? I mean, I felt like it was the most important work in the world at the time and I brought 4 other people in to the "truth". Fortunately I dont think I ruined any lives because 3 of them have left and the one that remains makes the truth work for them instead of them working for it, so no harm no foul there.
So did I waste my time on a mere "feel good" notion? Apparently.
 
blondie
blondie a year ago

Yes, I can remember the days the WTS "encouraged" evening witnessing, weekend afternoons and arranged a time for that. My husband was assigned and no one, no one, not even the elder who gave the part showed up.
Even the CO and his wife no longer go out in the evening (non-meeting) or Sunday after the meeting.
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 a year ago

InsidetheKH,
That could well be. However, I'd like to see some evidence of your assertions. Do you have any data to back them up? If not, what are you basing the assertions on?
I mean, it sounds reasonable, but I can make up all sorts of reasonable-sounding speculations which are utterly meaningless without empirical evidence.

 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@sir82 the changing political situation in eastern europe and the change for the better for the JW's during the 90's, as well as their growth, is a well known fact.
Just take a look at the yearbooks and check it yourself,.. i just grabbed two yearbooks ('94 and '96) from the 90's (figures of 1993 and 1995) from the bookshelf reporting 29% growth in 1993 for the countries of the former Soviet Union in 1995 50% growth in the 10 countries of the former Soviet Union

Also there are studies about the changing in households as i mentioned.
In my country (a typical industrialised western democracy with a thriving economy) a special government agency, called the central bureau of statistics, keeps track of such data and its a fact that nowadays both spouses work instead of just one with a main income during previous decades.
That means that in previous decades much more people were at home during the days.

 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions a year ago
It will be interesting to see the effect that cart/table witnessing has on growth over the next several years.
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago

Yes it will BOC.
I think what we will see the public "snacking" on religion at the cart much the way people buy a hotdog from a vendors cart nowadays. No real meaningful exchange taking place.
Since many witnesses cannot "man" the cart due to health reasons or their feelings of inadequacy (much easier to ride around in the back of someone elses car and accompany them to a not at home) less of the JWs will be active.
Ironically, this will make them more like the SDA and the LDS where only a portion do the proselytizing.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago



millie210 - "Ironically, this will make them more like the SDA and the LDS where only a portion do the proselytizing."
That's funny.
x
Is it just me, or does it seem like the louder the rhetoric they use to try to distance themselves from "Christendom" (historically, a major selling point of the WTS), the more like them they become?
If that's the case, it - in turn - even further removes incentive to stay affiliated with them, 'cause at that point, WTF's the difference?
 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a year ago

insidetheKH: reporting 29% growth in 1993 for the countries of the former Soviet Union in 1995 50% growth in the 10 countries of the former Soviet Union
I don't think that those numbers reflect actual growth.
The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and it was that event that revealed the numbers of people inside the Soviet Union who still viewed themselves as JWs. They were not new converts to the religion - they just became visible to the rest of the world.
And, some of those congregations that had self-identified as JW in the early 90s, later 'defected' because the doctrinal stance of the Watchtower had changed so much in the years that had passed by without contact from the Watchtower.
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago



Is it just me, or does it seem like the louder the rhetoric they use to try to distance themselves from "Christendom" (historically, a major selling point of the WTS), the more like them they become?
If that's the case, it - in turn - even further removes incentive to stay affiliated with them, 'cause at that point, WTF's the difference?
Cant seem to get out of my own quote box but I wanted to reply. Guess I will have to try another post................
 
millie210
millie210 a year ago

Alrighty then, what I wanted to say after I quoted Vidiot is that this reminds me of something an old man said to me 40 yrs ago when I was standing at his door.
He said "Right now you all are a young religion but give it another 25 years and let some money start rolling in...you will eventually end up mainstream like all other religions do."
Who would have thought he was right but he was.
.
 
RubaDub
RubaDub a year ago

I know I will be out the door if we are required to wear magic underwear like the Mormons.
Rub a Dub
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@Orphancrow look at the number of witnesses that were counted in the bunch of countries that were not specified by name in the 1990 yearbook and compare that with the number of Witnesses that popped up in all of the east european countries during the 90's
JW's were a legal and registered religion since 1990/1991 in almost all east european countries.

 
OrphanCrow
OrphanCrow a year ago

insidetheKH :@Orphancrow look at the number of witnesses that were counted in the bunch of countries that were not specified by name in the 1990 yearbook and compare that with the number of Witnesses that popped up in all of the east european countries during the 90's
Thanks, iskh...but, sorry...I have made a personal commitment not to crack open a Watchtower publication or put any stock in their 'number crunching'.
As far as I m concerned, if they lie about the doctrine, they lie about the numbers too. Once a liar, always a liar.
But, thank you for your information.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago



millie210 - "He said 'Right now you all are a young religion but give it another 25 years and let some money start rolling in...you will eventually end up mainstream like all other religions do.' Who would have thought he was right but he was.
What's even more ironic is that the "mainstreaming" is really just window dressing.
Internally, the WTS is just as authoritarian and controlling as it always was (arguably more so, IMO).
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@orphancrow as you wish.
however national surveys and researchers like Rodney Stark state that the numbers published by the Watchtower society are pretty conservative and very reliable.

 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a year ago
Since when does growth have to indicate health?
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

Interesting how this thread has morphed into a discussion on JW growth. I don't understand how it is not obvious to anyone looking at the WTS's own stats that the growth in Western nations is stagnating, driven by foreign language ministries. How is it not possible to look at the conversation ratios and see the waste of time spent in field service?
The ineffectiveness of the global preaching work is blatantly manifest but thanks to the propaganda and spin put on figures by the WTS it is simply lost on those mentally in. I do maintain some hope, however, that the WTS constant reference to figures will actually be one of the key factors in the wake up of many who are questioning what they are doing inside the org.
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@konceptual conversion ratio's are not important
Noah preached for many years and he saw no results at all, still he is called a preacher of righteousness 2 Peter 2:5

So important is only to do what God commands us to do. People do not make converts,.. that is impossible.
(1 Corinthians 3:5-7) . . .. 6 I planted, A·pol′los watered, but God kept making [it] grow; 7 so that neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes [it] grow.



 
carla
carla a year ago

Here is a site for ex Mormons similar to Simon's site

http://mormoncurtain.com/
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago



Village Idiot - "Since when does growth have to indicate health?"
Growth has always been viewed as evidence of robust health in the WTS.
 

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Topic Summary
does anyone have any links to how the mormons (or ex mormons for that matter) view the changes that the wts has made over recent years, especially the growth of jw.org and characters like caleb & sophia?.
have they noticed?
do they see similarities?




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Mormon view of JW.ORG
by konceptual99 a year ago 42 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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redvip2000
redvip2000 a year ago

Noah preached for many years and he saw no results at all, still he is called a preacher of righteousness 2 Peter 2:5
Was that before he asked Jehovah to fly 14 million (7 million species x 2) animals over the oceans to the middle east along with food for those animals, so he could stuff them in a wooden box for months?
Well certainly if you believe that, you can believe the Watchtower society is growing significantly.

 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

@inside
Check out the references on the purpose of the preaching work.
Granted, one reason is purely as an obligation which does not rely on anyone taking any notice but that's not all. Another purpose is to warn people with the objective of them coming to know about Jehovah and his plans for the earth - so they can make an informed decision about what they wish to do now before the big A comes.
In that aspect, conversion ratios are important. In that aspect, the effectiveness of ensuring the message is clearly understood by as many people as possible is a critical factor. In that aspect, preventing as many people as possible from being fried by giant burning gobstoppers from space is the number one purpose of why everyone trots out on the field ministry.
In that aspect, Jehovah's Witnesses have failed miserably. If the WTS was really interested in reaching as many people as possible with a clear and unmistakable message that would save their life then they would not send a couple of little old biddies round. They would not have people standing around for 2 hours with a cart whilst a few people maybe pick something up only to toss it away 50m down the street. They would do some proper advertising with all that money, really make God's name and the Kingdom Message something nobody could miss.
Oh - and they'd find a practical way to reach maybe two billion people in areas where the number of witnesses makes a meaningful street ministry about as possible as irrigating the Sahara with your p**s.
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 a year ago

Noah preached for many years and he saw no results at all, still he is called a preacher of righteousness 2 Peter 2:5
It's a fecking good job none of them did otherwise the ark would not have been big enough. Did Jehovah know it would only be Noah when he gave him the plans? Or would he have chucked off the elephants, rhinos, hippos, wildebeast and giraffes if a few too many people had said they were coming along for the ride?
I don't mind someone sticking up for the WT but to use the Flood to back up some lame justification for wasting your time every Saturday morning is really scrapping the barrel. I am amazed you've been around this site for so long and can still give the idea of a global flood survived only by that weirdy beardy and his family any credence.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
does anyone have any links to how the mormons (or ex mormons for that matter) view the changes that the wts has made over recent years, especially the growth of jw.org and characters like caleb & sophia?.
have they noticed?
do they see similarities?




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Anyone want Images of the Watchtower DVDs?
by Mincan 8 years ago 12 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Mincan
Mincan 8 years ago

I've got access this week to all of their DVDs ... including:
Young People Ask - What Will I Do With My Life?
Jehovah's Witnesses - Organised To Share The Good News
Our Whole Association of Brothers
Noah
David
Transfusion Alternatives Documentary Series

Let me know and I'll rip them into burnable DVD Image ISOs
 
RR
RR 8 years ago

Sounds good, I'd be interested!
RR
 
The Lone Ranger
The Lone Ranger 8 years ago

I am also interested but how do I get an ISO from you?
 
Mincan
Mincan 8 years ago

I can add you as a friend on my Vuze bittorent client and give you preferential bandwidth...

also I need to know which ones you are interested in... I dont want to encode them if no one wants them... if you want them all then just say so... I only have the ones I listed sorry.
 
yknot
yknot 8 years ago

All
torrent torrent torrent
 
MissingLink
MissingLink 8 years ago

Bring on the crazy!
 
Tired of the Hypocrisy
Tired of the Hypocrisy 8 years ago

Please send me a link to the ISO.....and THANX
 
Mincan
Mincan 8 years ago

Here they are:
http://thepiratebay.org/user/Mincan
 
witnessgirl
witnessgirl 8 years ago

Thank you thank you thank you! I've been looking all over for copies of the vids! I'll seed these as much as I can. Thanks again so much!
 
Eyes Open
Eyes Open 8 years ago

Heh, nice. "WT Young People Ask What Will I Do With My Life DVD.ISO" followed by an ad for "HornyMatches". :grinning:
 
Mincan
Mincan 8 years ago

Sorry I havent been seeding these very well... in the coming weeks I hope to be able to do it... if one of you could possibly tell me your IP address by PM I could make sure you get priority access to the ISOs... been going from place to place and different internet connections and such.
 
heathen
heathen 8 years ago

Actually wonders why the WTBTS doesn't have them up on their own site.................
 
JW_Researcher
JW_Researcher 8 years ago

Thank you!
Leeching now.
If you folks will keep seeding until I finish, I will seed (broadband) until at least a ratio of 3.0.
Thanks again.
 

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A mormon pm's me
by paranoia agent 2 years ago 18 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower bible
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paranoia agent
paranoia agent 2 years ago

Hi, PA.
Just read your thread about oblivion to oblivion, watched the video you posted and wondered if you'd be willing to let me send you some videos on the Book of Mormon. As you may know, I'm LDS and I believe there's substantial evidence for the historicity of the book. But I'm also aware there's evidence and proof. As someone who is searching, you'd be someone who would be objective. The Book of Mormon also teaches that many things would be taken out of the scriptures in our day, and it indicates that people would question Jesus Christ. Thus, if the historicity of the book can be proven, then Jesus is, after all, the Jewish messiah and God. In fact, that's the primary reason it came forth, to be a new witness of Jesus Christ.
I understand many ex-JWs tend to be bitter and, frankly, cynical. Some become agnostics and others atheists. Very few are in any mood to continue searching. From a psychological standpoint, the Society was the shining city on a hill, and if it wasn't what it claimed to be, then nothing else could be, either.
But you indicated that you're reading. If so, I'd like to hear about your experiences in the WTBTS and what it was that led you out of it. Were you a convert or born into it? I saw you joined the site in 2010. Were you out by that time?
The Book of Mormon is said to a volume of scripture written by the descendents of Lehi, a wealthy Jerusalem merchant of the tribe of Joseph. He also was a prophet. He and his family were led from the city shortly before its destruction in 587 B.C. (not 607) to a land of promise which would be Joseph's land of inheritance. Years before, Jacob had given his sons their patriarchal blessings. Interestingly, Judah was given the land of Jerusalem until the coming of the Christ (See Gen. 49). But Joseph received the birthright. So where were his lands of inheritance?
"Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him, but his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob." (verses 22-24). Mormons believe that Lehi was the bough, the branches of which ran over the wall and settled in the New World. Instead of going into detail, however, I have two production quality DVDs that I think make a superlative case for the book.
If you would be willing to let me send you the videos, I can promise you that you will at least enjoy them and find them informative. They're not preachy, but contain substantial evidence that it is what it purports to be.
Let me know. If it's not of interest, no offense will be taken. I just know that it's been of great comfort to me and that it has a historical side that can be investigated from an intellectual standpoint. Should you want to take a stab at it, please drop me a line. And, if it's not too much trouble, I'd like to hear your story.
Cheers!
John

Hi John, thanks for the pm that you sent more than a month ago, if you don't mind I like I to leave all conversations in the open so I have started a thread regarding your pm in which you can respond to, thread name is A mormon pm's me. In the case of spamming I have left your email out.
There is an aspect to Mormonism that I can relate to Jehovah's Witnesses, you have levels in which the further up you go the more information you will be provided with, like the teachings of polygamy in the higher rankings. Another aspect would be that just like jw's it's a lot like the mafia, that is you need prerequisites to get in, you need prerequisites to stay and there are repercussions to leave.
Also why is it that your temples are a lot like freemason temples and why are there books for freemasons that calls Joseph Smith their brotheren?
You speak of an historical side? Really? that everything occurred in America?
While we are at it do you have answer to the contrary of what ex members have to say?
PA
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 years ago

Cult recruitment does go on here and sadly some fall for it.
It is nuts that people can convert to LDS with eyes wide open, if they do it is because they have never really understood what they left behind in the JWs nor have they learnt any critical thinking skills and developed a functional BullShit meter.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

I wish believers in things like the LDS church would honestly go through the process we went through when leaving the WT/JW Scam posing as a religion.
Thoroughly investigate the history of the church, using only outside sources, as a starting point, then continue with the doctrines etc , if necessary.
Would Almighty God have anything to do with such a thing ?
 
AndDontCallMeShirley
AndDontCallMeShirley 2 years ago

I understand many ex-JWs tend to be bitter and, frankly, cynical. Some become agnostics and others atheists. Very few are in any mood to continue searching.
---
Ironically, many ex-JWs arrive at this point precisely because they "continued searching".

This person seems to think the logical progression when exiting WT is to immediately immerse yourself in yet another silly cult and become a victim once again.

I'd really like to see all this alleged "evidence" which supports LDS claims, Re: "historicity". Like WT, Mormons seem to think that because their church says it, it must be true...and everyone else should believe it too.

"look at our literature, we say we're the true religion...see, it says so right here'.
 
KateWild
KateWild 2 years ago

Wow that is insidious indeed, thanks for the warning PA, Kate xx
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 years ago

The Mormons seem to be suckers for fakery and fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann
http://www.culteducation.com/reference/mormon/mormon127.html



 
Caedes
Caedes 2 years ago



I wish believers in things like the LDS church would honestly go through the process we went through when leaving the WT/JW Scam posing as a religion.
Thoroughly investigate the history of the church, using only outside sources, as a starting point, then continue with the doctrines etc , if necessary.
Phizzy,
They do, there are websites exactly like this one for ex-mormons. Full of people saying the exact same things that are said on here.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 years ago

yea, I know Caedes, and that is what I meant by outside sources, along with other resources of course.
That is where the word "honestly" came in too, surely someone honestly interested in truth, and Mormons call their brand "The Truth" too, surely someone like that would look at all information ?
Would Mormon John advise an honestly searching JW to only look at JW.org for info on the WT ?
But will he honestly examine his own religion ?
If not, we really do not want his sort here.
 
cantleave
cantleave 2 years ago

This is why I constantly call out people like Cold Steel - they are here to recruit for their brand of cult.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

I sympathise but I also am a bit sad you posted a pm in public without prior agreement.
 
Laika
Laika 2 years ago

Trying to convince anyone of your beliefs over PM is definitely dodgy. Unless you send them questions keep that stuff in the open. If your ideas are good no reason why not.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

We judge ourselves by our intentions but others by their actions
 
rip van winkle
rip van winkle 2 years ago

paranoia agent,
you are here since 2010? Are you as fragile as you were all those years ago? So you received a pm about this guy's religion. Are you outraged? Offended? Offput? Did you feel he had bad intent? Or that he was soliciting you for personal info or money?
I'm just wondering, is it ok to post other people's pm's without their permission? Or did he agree to it? If he didn't agree to it...did you notify Simon or a mod that you received a solicitation? Or did you notify the person/ Mormon who solicited you to NOT pm you about their religion? Or to NOT pm you at all? And did he continue to pm you anyway? Is he harassing you? Or was it a one time thing?
I've received great pm's from most, some strange but harmless from others and a 'Fu*k off' pm from an old poster. Never once thought to 'out' anyone's pm's.
And if you want to notify others, that could have been done without posting the pm. Of course, that is just my opinion.
I personally don't want to be solicitated from anyone here ( or anywhere) about religion or something anyone may be selling. If someone should offend me by being abusive or by intimidation or by threat or by solicitation then I would ask them to not pm me anymore. If they continue, I would notify ' the superior authorities' here: Simon, Angharad, Jgnat, Scully !
 
Hortenzie
Hortenzie 2 years ago

I don't see anything wrong with the Mormon's PM. Just one person expressing his opinion to someone else who he thought might be interested. We all do it all the time. Maybe his opinion is not appreciated here, so what.
And what Rip said.
 
Giordano
Giordano 2 years ago

So like which John was it? I don't know.The guy was pushing his religious crap we can now debate the merrits of his B.S. His privacy was protected.
Good answer from PA
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

I credit JWs with marginally less gullibility than your average Mormon who seems to operate on the principle of "If it shines it must be gold". At least your average JW exhibits some cynicism and reserve which is completely lacking in Mormon recruits!
I am sure it is not my imagination, but locally in New Zealand I have observed a seeming resurgence of prosletyzing by Mormons. I swear everywhere I go, I see them, out in their twos cycling around their communities or doing street preaching. By stark contrast, the Witnesses absence is conspicuous.
Just shows you how human-generated these nutty-flake religions are. Highly dependent on the gullible leading the more gullible.
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 2 years ago

If I was a Mormon I would have a picture of Majic Underwear as my avatar.
Rub a Dub
 
Simon
Simon 2 years ago



Cult recruitment does go on here and sadly some fall for it.
If anyone ever gets any obvious "recruitment" type PMs then please don't just ignore it - let me know and they will be shown the door.
 
paranoia agent
paranoia agent 2 years ago

Qcmbr wrote - I sympathise but I also am a bit sad you posted a pm in public without prior agreement.
Hi Qcmbr, there is no reason for this pm to stay as one, there isn't any sensitive information, this person did not ask for this pm to be private but had he done so I would allow it but also ask that no more future emails be sent unless willing to have an open discussion. Also I did not post his email address that was included with the pm.
I have to admit his email is a bit suspicious, wanting to know more about me and all.



Thanks Simon
 

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Article by Morman Organization about JW'S
by whereami 8 years ago 17 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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whereami
whereami 8 years ago

Email going around in the JW world.

This really does make us appreciate it...especially when you see it from an outsider's point of view.
Very interesting article authored by the LDS (Mormons) - helps you to really appreciate what we have.
The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
Best Missionary Literature Printing and Distribution Program
Jehovah's Witnesses
The Jehovah's Witnesses distribute over 5,000 tons (10 million pounds) of religious literature in Russia alone each year! In contrast, the average LDS missionary worldwide distributes only one copy of the Book of Mormon every five days. Even the best and most spiritually prepared individuals can't accept a message unless they have an opportunity to hear it! In light of these facts, it can hardly come as a surprise that there are over 120,000 active Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and similar numbers in Ukraine and Poland, compared to only about 4,000 active Latter-day Saints (out of 12,000 'on the rolls') in Russia, 2,500 active (out of 8,000 'on the rolls') in Ukraine, and 250 active out of 1100 'on the rolls' in Poland. Nor can it come as a surprise that there are over 13,000 active Witnesses in Kazakhstan and over 10,000 in Georgia, compared to only a handful of LDS members in both countries.
 A comparison of statistics in many other Eastern European and Asian nations is similar (Slovakia-- 12,000 JWs to about 40 active LDS, Romania -- 30,000 JWs to under 500active LDS, et cetera.) Why are the Witnesses growing so rapidly in these countries with very few foreign missionaries, while Latter-day Saints are experiencing very slow growth in spite of a large contingent of full-time foreign missionaries? It isn't that JW commitments are easier - meeting schedules are comparable and JW members actually have to be attending church for much longer before they can be baptized. The answer lies in the Jehovah's Witnesses strategic planning and literature distribution to reach every soul and sound their message in every ear, often many times over.
 The Apostle Paul asked, 'How will they believe in him of whom they have not heard?' Good question. And, judging by the statistics above, there are far, far more people who are having the opportunity to hear the Jehovah's Witness message, than the message of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't that people are hard-hearted - it's that they aren't having enough exposures and opportunities to receive the Restored Gospel.
 Best Member-Missionary Program
 Jehovah's Witnesses
 Of the more than six million active Jehovah's Witnesses, almost all spend a minimum of ten hours a month sharing their faith with others, and 850,000 - almost 15% - spend fifty or more hours a month. According to George Barna's study of religious practices by denomination published on of July 9, 2001, only 26% of U.S. Latter-day Saints make any attempt at all to share their faith with non-members over the course of an entire year. So Latter-day Saints aren't even in the running.
Best Proselyting Magazine
Jehovah's Witnesses
Watchtower and Awake! This one isn't even a close. The hands-down winner is the Jehovah's Witness organization for Watchtower and Awake! Watchtower has an average circulation of over 22 million -- the largest circulation of any religious magazine, while Awake! follows behind at 19 million. No other religious magazines even approach this distribution. The Watchtower is translated into 144 languages for simultaneous release, and so it escapes the English-language cultural stigma of many other religious magazines that are translated into other languages weeks or months after the English version. If you pick up a copy of Awake! or the Watchtower, you'll quickly see why these magazines are so successful.
 Many religious magazines are directed primarily to existing members and use vocabulary and references that are not understandable to non-members who aren't 'in the know.' Not so with the Watchtower and Awake! Thumbing through one of the numerous of copies of Awake! in front of me, I see well-written articles on Louis Braille's invention of the Braille script, the volcanic creation of the Santorini Island, Chagas ' disease, Olympic facts, the life cycle of Beavers, a recent earthquake in Taiwan, Jehovah's Witnesses service projects, and much more - all masterfully tied into Bible themes.
One Jehovah's Witness friend of mine mentioned not long ago that he had never completed college, but that he felt t hat he had learned many college-level items by reading Awake! over the course of his life. The Watchtower contains more life-application type articles related to Biblical doctrines. While the articles definitely carry the Jehovah's Witness' theological slant, they are also full of interesting and relevant facts that one would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. The authors have definitely done their homework, although I do not agree with many points of their theology.
 The Jehovah's Witnesses do a wonderful job of making their publications engaging and relevant to both Witnesses and non-witnesses alike. Also, many religious magazines today are permeated with flowery blandishments with little substance. Some denominations filter religious media to present a glowing media image, while failing to confront or acknowledge significant real-world challenges. Inspirational stories of individuals --however moving -- get old after a while without more real-world content, and besides-- many types of inspirational stories are claimed by all denominations, and prove nothing. The Jehovah's Witnesses are pragmatic enough to acknowledge that living Christian ideals in the real world doesn't always make for neatly-packaged fairy-tale stories. No one could ever accuse Watchtower or Awake! of fostering complacency -- to the contrary, they generate a sense of awar eness that I have rarely encountered in other religious publications. The Watchtower and Awake! are refreshing in their factual-based, well-researched, relevant real-world content. Regardless of the tenuousness of Jehovah's Witness theology, it is no surprise that these magazines are so popular worldwide.
 Best Convert Retention
Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)

 In contrast to 20-25% average LDS retention rates worldwide, both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Adventists manage to retain the considerable majority of new converts. Short-term baptismal goals, hasty teaching with limited attempt to assess the true depth of the investigator's understanding and commitment, and 'baptize them quick while they feel the Spirit and hope that they decide to come to church again' approaches, have resulted in a 20-25% average LDS retention rates in Latin America and Asia. I have never known of anything good to come of converts being rushed to baptism. Indeed, while rushing baptisms may result in quick, temporary increases in statistics, it also ignites a long-burning fuse that results in serious member problems, or even in the eventual collapse of local branches. Perhaps in this we have a lesson to learn both from our own scriptures, from our current prophet (Gordon B. Hinckley: 'it is not necessary for us to lose any of those who are baptized') and from the Jehovah's Wi tnesses, who ta ke pre-baptismal preparation much more seriously than most Latter-day Saints.
 Jehovah's Witnesses would never consider rushing an individual to baptism in two weeks or less: individuals must first prove their dedication to Jehovah and worthiness to serve as his spokesman. As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention, compared to an average 25-30% worldwide LDS retention rate.
 
BreakingAway
BreakingAway 8 years ago

So we're supposed to believe that a Mormon written article goes on non-stop about just how great Jehovah's Witnesses and their proselytizing is ? LOL Looks like more "theocratic warfare" (lies).They really are desperate for any type of justification or praise , aren't they ?
 
garybuss
garybuss 8 years ago

To me it seems more than a little narcissistic that the Jehovah's Witnesses' number one message printed by their publishing company is the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have the best publishing company.
No wonder current Witnesses are doing hit and run door to door literature distribution. If I were them, I'd be too embarrassed to let anybody see the literature. I swear that Revelation book had to have been produced in Iowa as corny as it is. Seven trumpets my ass!



 
watson
watson 8 years ago

I guess they havn't seen the baptism numbers over the last 7 years, compared to current active publishers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

I'd like to see some references..
They forgot to mention other stats that the JWs beat Mormons in:
Most window cleaners per 100 members.
Greatest toilet paper distribution channel in the world.
Greatest number of 3rd world standard building constructions in the developed world.
Most-anti education door to door proselyters.
Most humorous religious artwork.
Most pointless arguments (it really was a stake not a cross.)
Largest number of atonement ignorers.
Prize for the only group who can actually drop the mood at a funeral.
Least visible Jesus ever followed closely by least visible charitable works.
...least that's what this Mormon would have written. Other than it being poo its not a bad article :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
kwr
kwr 8 years ago

Thanks for posting such an interesting article.
 
sf
sf 8 years ago

~delete~
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

Was this published? If so, where? It's got some Mormon terminology, but still I'd be interested in seeing the actual piece it claims to be from. Has it been embellished?
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

" Best Convert Retention Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists (LDS)"
 I think that clinches the fact that this e-mail is false. Obviously it's cooked up by a JW who read the CNN article (which listed JWs and Seventh-Day Adventists as having the worst retention rates) and wants to counteract it before it gets around.
 
B_Deserter
B_Deserter 8 years ago

"seven trumpets my ass!"



 
uwishufish
uwishufish 8 years ago

Was that Elvis and the trumpetiers or just the trumpetiers?
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 8 years ago

So, is it supposed to be a good thing when one cult praises another cult?
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 8 years ago

As a result, they achieve 80+% long-term retention
This is incorrect. JWs have been shown to have the highest turnover of any religion, with 50% of the number baptised leaving every year. The other figures also seem to be somewhat incorrect or selective, as the Mormons have grown quicker than JW's and have higher numbers globally.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

I challenged this exact article on two other sites, since it is obviously NOT from any LDS source. I requested sources, references, etc., and so far ..... NADA, ZIP, ZILCH.
This is bogus.

SusanHere
 
whereami
whereami 8 years ago

I also thought it was fishy. This email came without any original article attached to it.
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

Also, since the JW's don't respect any other religion's opinion on anything, why should any supposedly LDS-sponsored article be any big high-5 for them? If they don't believe other religions are anything other than spawns of Satan, then nothing coming from those "evil" sources should be quoted as being wonderful.
Isn't this kind of like how the JW's would quote directly from Kingdom of the Cults by that great fake Walter Martin whenever they wanted to dump on the SDA's or the LDS, and then vehemently deny everything the SAME book had to say about their own JW religion?
That never made much sense to me. Can't walk on both sides of the road at the same time. Just doesn't work.

SusanHere
 
keyser soze
keyser soze 8 years ago

I believe that JWs place more literature worldwide than any other group, but that is the only element of the article that rings true.
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 8 years ago

The Witnesses VERY SELECTIVELY sliced and diced from this report: http://www.cumorah.com/bestprograms.htm
"The World's Best Non-LDS Missionary Programs
This page catalogues some of the most exceptional missionary successes of non-LDS religious groups.
Non-LDS groups that consistently report remarkable missionary results are listed here. The listing of some non-LDS groups here does not in any way endorse their activities or teachings, nor does it imply that LDS and non-LDS missionary efforts are equivalent, nor that all lessons from non-LDS groups are necessarily transferable to an LDS setting. Other denominations lack the fullness of the gospel, modern revelation, and the authority that are necessary to building up of Christ's Kingdom on Earth. Nevertheless, in the spirit of seeking out all good and all that which is profitable for learning and instruction, some selected items are presented here in the hope that some value may be derived from them. Joseph Smith taught:
"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'" Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 316
It should also be understood that the content of this page is the sole responsibility of the author, and not of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to which this site has no legal relation."

Compare the Witnesses with these other "winners":
Best Native Missionary Program — K.P. Yohannan of Gospel for Asia
Best Community Outreach Strategy — DAWN Ministries
Best Church Planting Program — International Mission Board, Southern Baptist Convention
Best Evangelistic Broadcasting Network — Adventist World Radio
Best Parachurch Volunteer Organization — Maranatha
Best Scripture Translation Organization — Wycliffe Bible Translators
Best Missionary Research — George Barna
Best Audioscripture Ministry — Audioscriptures.org and Hosanna.org
Best Unreached People Project — Joshua Project
Best Internet Outreach — David Yonggi Cho and Yoido Full Gospel Church

~Sue
 

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My wife is going to church!
by tdogg 14 years ago 22 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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tdogg
tdogg 14 years ago



Not only did I have the fortune of being raised a Dub, but I also live in the heart of Mormonism, good old SLC. My wife went to LDS church today and says she is going to start going every week. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHH.
I live here amidst the Mormans and that is usually okay because I have non-LDS family and friends. More importantly I have my own home as a refuge. Now that is no longer the case. I work at a Morman owned company, I have my LDS inlaws next door (they are great people), and now I may have LDS bullshit in my home.
My family is free to choose, including my children, but this religion is different in my opinion. My wife thinks it is harmless, and I will admit that there are many good people who are LDS, but I think it is NOT. If you have ever lived here or around Mormans then you should know what I am talking about, especially with children. I am not talking pedophilia, I am talking about the rape of the mind and it has already begun. HELLLLLLLPPPP!!!!!1
 
gsx1138
gsx1138 14 years ago



Sorry to hear it. I wonder if mormons have the same thing as DF'ing. Most mormons I've known are pretty cool people but that could be just for show. Looks like you'll have to be the voice of reason from now on.
Dear Lord, please save me from your followers.
 
Lost Diamond
Lost Diamond 14 years ago

tdogg,
 
nativenyr23
nativenyr23 14 years ago



PLEASE PLEASE....if anyone has any addt'l info on Mormon's ...i'd like to know. My sister-in-law has been "working" on me in a way to visit her LDS church. I've listened to a few programs on the BYU channel and am afraid to admit it sounds appealing.
Advice?
 
Lost Diamond
Lost Diamond 14 years ago



tdogg
I just moved out of SLC in 1998, and I lived there for about 15 years. I'm sorry to hear your wife is getting involved with the Mormons. They are wacky as they come!! A lot of their views on family and women reminded me of the Witnesses and they also believe they have the "truth"...to put it in shorter terms, there is a lot of mind control there as well! They even get baptized for the dead! Be very careful with that bunch! If you don't mind telling me, what cong. did you go to?
gsx1138,
The Mormons have what they call ex-communication. I understand that is like being DF'd.
 
tdogg
tdogg 14 years ago



nativenyr23: What do you want to know? Go ahead and try out the ward house on Sunday and see for yourself.
Here is the first major conflict between Bible and the Book of Morman: The Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve ate the fruit, disobeyed God and sinned. IMO eating the fruit was not bad, it was that they disobeyed God. They wanted to BE LIKE GOD. What is they ultimate destination of a Morman? They will be a GOD of their own planet in the Celestial Kingdom. Whoo! Ask a Morman to explain the Garden of Eden story to you.
What else do you want to know? I have lived here my entire life. I have preached to these folks when I was a Dub. My ancestors were some of the origional Morman pioneers. I have never had a problem here with the MOs but I think I am starting to crack....
 
Lost Diamond
Lost Diamond 14 years ago

nativenyr23,
In my opinion, I would stay clear away from them!! They are very similar to the JW's, with almost the same mind control techniques. It's them versus everybody else. Women are perceived as less than man and should only stay home and raise the kids....they shun women from advancing in a career and rather see women as the Betty Crocker's of America. There are very nice people in the LDS church, just like there is in the WTS, but their beliefs are very structured and controlling....please be careful!!
 
tdogg
tdogg 14 years ago

Diamond: I went to the Granger cong, then Magna right before I left. Uh oh, now they will know who I am for sure. I have a lot of JW family here in the valley still. So where did you go? Email me if you are afraid to post.
 
Scorpion
Scorpion 14 years ago



http://www.utlm.org/
http://members.tripod.com/~lmj640/higley.html
http://www.beyondmormonism.com/
This should give you a start.
The Mormon religion in some ways is worse than the WT. The mindcontrol is the same, just a different set of doctrines.
Lost Diamond is right about the excommunication of the LDS. I know several ex-mormons that are shunned for questioning the church.
Scorpion
 
rekless
rekless 14 years ago



all I know about LDS is once they have their tenicles in you they sart inquiring about your financial state and try to corherse you into tiething or paying 10 % of your annual salary. Beware!!!!
Advance heart & vascular Specialists
Ram K. Singh, MD., F.A.C.C.
4432 S. Eastern Ave.
Las Vegas, NV. 89119
" This man saved my life, after my heart attack."
Hell is truth seen too late. H.G.Adams
 
Scorpion
Scorpion 14 years ago



rekless is right about the 10% tithe. There are friends of mine that left the Mormon church years ago. They were asked by the church to produce their tax returns on two occasions to see if they were indeed giving the 10% the church asked for. A freind of my wifes that was a Mormon that worked in the hospital in Auburn California sold their home because of getting behind in their tithe and used some of the proceeds to get current with the church.
The lengths people will go to in order to support a religion!
 
mouthy
mouthy 14 years ago

Get the video on Mormons either from Randy or Lorri Macgregor- it has helped many
 
detective
detective 14 years ago

Tdogg,
 you can also try www.exmormon.org
 
monkey
monkey 14 years ago

www.ldstalk.com has a message board like this for ex mormons and mormons to debate gospel issues
 
Scully
Scully 14 years ago



One of my nursing school classmates grew up in a Mormon family. She had been kicked out of her parents' home when she'd been caught smoking and was "ex-fellowshipped". They practice shunning the same way JWs do.
She eventually quit smoking and got herself reinstated. But then she started dating a non-Mormon fellow, and was quickly "ex-fellowshipped" again. Apparently the second "ex-fellowshipment" is a permanent one.
Emotionally, she was a wreck from the roller-coaster ride they put her on, although her reinstatement period was very brief. All she had to do was go to the church elders and tell them that she had quit smoking, and it was maybe a week afterward - at the next meeting - they announced her reinstatement.
Love, Scully




 
NeonMadman
NeonMadman 14 years ago



Here's a quick reference to 17 points of Mormon looneyism:
http://www.helpingmormons.org/17_little_known_facts.htm
Tom

"At midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew go out and round up everyone who knows more than they do"
--Bob Dylan
 
Salud
Salud 14 years ago

tdogg,
I pioneered in Bountiful, Utah from from '86-'91 and I found the mormon people to be nice at the doors, but it was out of common courtesy since they have misionaries preaching as well. In my exp. and insight on the LDS church is that the three things that drive this religion is sex, money, and power, sometimes in that order. I consider them a cult and very decptive and hypocritical in their approach. Their members are decieved just as the Witnesses are. Do what you can to discourage your wife, but in the end it is her choice. Hang in there.
Salud
 
nativenyr23
nativenyr23 14 years ago



thanks for all the advise and information on the mormons....I specifically asked if they disfellowshipped or ex-communicated people and was told they don't.
and that planet thing....damn...that's way out there.
Think I'll stay with my standard attendance to the non-denom church on Sundays.
 
tdogg
tdogg 14 years ago



nativenyr23: Yes they do ex-comm people. They are not as strict as the JW's. Usually it takes open critisism of the church to get the axe and even then they may not, unless you are gay, then goodbye. It is hard to get out once you are in, you have to send a letter, maybe several in order to get off the rolls (all the Mo to JW converts have to do this). Since you are baptised at 8 years old you are a member even if you dont go when you are older (folks known as "jack-Mormans).
Thanks for the support all, and thanks for the link Neon(more ammo for the impending war).
Everyone is free to choose what they believe but if you know anything about Mormanism then you know that a woman married to a non-believer has little future in the Celestial Kingdom. And I also will not allow my children to be brainwashed, especially after what I went through as a JW child.
 
RevMalk
RevMalk 14 years ago



I would let her be......maybe they're the true church......how much would that suck if you "Saved" them now only to learn later it was not a good idea.......At the very least take it easy with her, do some studying, find out for yourself. And if it's not the true church what's the worst that can happen? you trip over a Book of Mormon every once in a while? They may be very into their religion, but from what I know of them they're no more wrong than anyone else, and certainly alot more normal that JW's! I do have quite a bit of information piled up here on the sect. Nothing really worthwhile though. My wife was going to the LDS church for a while, so I gathered several hundred articles, and I read them all. I can't really find a solid point to argue them on. They've never told a false prophecy, they do not hide child abuse, they do not shun (not like JW's do) and they love Christ.....what's so bad about that? My wife doesn't go anymore, but if she did it wouldn't bother me a bit, they're good people, and I know we get paranoid about organized religion, but we also have to keep a balance and not categorize everyone with the Watchtower.

RevMalk's 2 cents and more
 

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My wife is going to church!
by tdogg 14 years ago 22 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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ozziepost
ozziepost 14 years ago



G'day tdogg,
It does seem like "out of the frying pan into the fire", doesn't it?
Suggest you read up on the Mormons as much as you can, then perhaps ask some searching questions of your wife, like "On what basis......"
Good luck.
Cheers, Ozzie
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 14 years ago



We call it the borg, I've heard that ex-momo's refer to their former religious domineers as the "Morg" LOL
I've known a small number of ex-mormon's, they seem to be a lot like ex-jw's, disillusioned and traumatized by their experience
 
omiecoop
omiecoop 14 years ago



I was ALMOST sucked into Mormonism as a teenager, and would like to take this opportunity to advise you to beware of Mormonism at all costs. They believe that God comes from the planet Kolob, and that he is married. We along with Jesus and Satan are all his children. They further believe that man (notice I said man as in the male of the species, not mankind!) will one day transcend and become a god in another universe.
Of course, they don't tell you this when they have their little bicycles sitting on your front lawn, and wearing their little short sleeved white shirts. They are a CULT, just as the JWs are and I recommend only one course of action....
RUN!!!!!!!!
 

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Topic Summary
not only did i have the fortune of being raised a dub, but i also live in the heart of mormonism, good old slc.
my wife went to lds church today and says she is going to start going every week.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggghh.




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Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr 3 years ago 85 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Ever since Mitt Romney turned the spotlight on the LDS church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.
The LDS core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the West but it has actively reversed. To their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task. You can only paint sh*t so many ways. These are the red flags:
1 - Vast advertising campaign highlighting normality of church members and emphasising role of women.
2 - New outreach to gay community including re-writing key homophobic speeches to lessen their edge. New website showing changing attitudes. Proposition 8 involvment has been a lighting rod for disaffection.
3 - Growing NOM community (New Order Mormons, cafeteria members who don't believe some or all doctrines but remain for cultural, personal or family reasons).
4 - UK, there are a series of fireside occuring to address the hard issues, a couple are touring the church doing a QandA style presentation with no restrictions on questions. This also involves a public agreement that mistakes have been made by prophets.
5 - Almost complete cessation of UK building program (in my area land allocated for chapel expansion has been sold off to developers).
6 - Facebook has allowed lots of anonymous questions (I've had 6 separate , originally TBM. people contact me privately from an active ward that used to be 150+ and has now fallen to 70+ within 5 years.)
7 - Within the church their are signs of subtle rebellion (LDS women organised a pantsuit day to challenge enforced skirt and dress wearing attitudes.)
10 years and the LDS flame will be flickering out. imo.
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 years ago

I guess you could say there are NOWs as well, New Order Witnesses, who don't believe some of the Society's teachings. They prove to be the most difficult to reason with.
 
sir82
sir82 3 years ago

a couple are touring the church doing a QandA style presentation with no restrictions on questions.

It is utterly inconceivable to imagine JWs doing something like this.

Is it that much of a surprise for Mormons? Was it once "utterly inconceivable" for you too?
 
moshe
moshe 3 years ago

Mormons have a tremendous sunk cost investment from their tithing money and time- remember those foreign missions for the young mormons? They will be very much wanting the leadership to throw them a reform bone of some sort, so they can go back to being a special people chosen by god to rule over their own world.
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

This has made my day.
Its difficult to see the Watchtwer responding to discontent with anything but threats.
 
metatron
metatron 3 years ago

I did wonder, the other day, about a remark I heard from a C.O. He seemed to be saying that there was a majority of congregations in his circuit
that averaged around 40-50 pubs.
If this is widely true across the US or elsewhere, then it seems quite unstable. Once you get down that low, it only takes a few defections to make the congregation non-viable and shut it down - or combine it with another.

metatron
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 years ago

My daughter-in-law was a Morman, she was on a mission when she realized she did not believe the things she was trying to teach. She left and married a non Mormon, my step son. It was great seeing someone break free from a restrictive culture like that, she drinks coffee and wine, and is having a great time trying all these new things. She is not shunned by her family, so that is great for her.
 
straightshooter
straightshooter 3 years ago

Interesting post. I have noticed that the Mormons are actively trying to recruit the Hispanics in my neighborhood. They see the potential of foreigners to replace their losing membership.
 
TD
TD 3 years ago

Interesting, especially the ward shrinking to less than half in 5 years!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

The LDS challenge is that they have pushed the mantra of embracing all truth so much that they can't continually ignore the skeletons in their own closet. There have been a wave of resignations in the last two years that have rocked the leadership and forced them to act. There is even some talk of private meetings between some high level leaders and the some vocal dissidents. It's very interesting to watch and has the feel of a building that's had it's foundations hacked away that will fall in a big heap, a delicious but scary anticipation. Just this weekend we had a lovely evening with friends who casually dropped into the conversation that neither of them had been to church for 7 months. These people who are leaving are the core members, the second and third generation families who just a few years ago had been solid members. Of course it's all because I left hehe. Seriously though this is something amazing and many members are buzzing with talk about what's happening.
If I hear of anything else I'll let you know. The initial reports back from the firesides has been that they aren't enough to tempt waverers back, some faithful members are glad that issues are being confronted and a good wedge of the congregation are hearing things they never knew.
 
Satanus
Satanus 3 years ago

Very interesting. Mormons have a nature quite different from jws, especially the leaders. Mormons tend to be outgoing, engaging and more open. Jw leadership is very passive aggressive. So, what is working to break the mormon monolith won't necesarily work against the wt corp.
S
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 years ago

Remember that FLDS breakaway group who was (Legally) smacked and smacked hard a few years back?
Seeing a "real-world" example of how quickly a traditional (and literal) application of Mormon ideology could devolve into institutionalized sexual victimization brought a lot of uncomy questions to the fore.
Personally, I think the Rubicon was crossed with the church's involvement in trying to snuff out Cali's same-sex marriage amendment; a great deal of (otherwise loyal) Mormons were mortified and appalled when the LDS heirarchy's subterfuge was exposed.
I highly doubt Glenn Beck has helped their public image either.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 years ago

Satanus - "..what is working to break the Mormon monolith won't necesarily work against the WT corp."
Agreed.
Like the RCC before, the LDS has the resources and overall size to survive an internal reformation and liberalization.
The WTS does not.

Not to mention that the WTS has a lot more invested in being an End-Times religion; as a result, the GB is far more willing to double down rather than negotiate.
 
Simon
Simon 3 years ago

How much time do the Mormons typically spend attending church etc... ?
They seem better at extracting money directly from their members through the tything thing. Is the reward that they don't have to spend as much time as JWs do?
 
designs
designs 3 years ago

#7 LDS women getting stronger is a good thing (someday they to will leave) wouldn't it be great if JW women starting demanding their rights.
 
jgnat
jgnat 3 years ago

The small town of Raymond, Alberta, heavily Mormon, ranks among the top five communities in Canada for the highest level of charitable donations per capita. The community is not too far from you, Simon.
I was looking at similarly sized communities to my own, checking out their relative civic responsibility. The town manages its budget better than we do, while its family median income (just under 20,000 annually) is the lowest for towns of its size in Alberta.
Hollowed out. Good choice of words. I don't wonder if it isn't also happening with the Witnesses. I mean, in our town in the past three years we went from ten Witnesses (four children) to two. There was a special needs talk in the next closest town about over-use of "tying-in" to the meetings. It makes me wonder if congregants aren't "checking out" both mentally and physically.
 
betterdaze
betterdaze 3 years ago

The article below is from two years ago, but it highlights the similar trend with limited Watchtower growth, *excepting* immigrant communities.
N.J. Mormon community to build church in Newark
Many of the new members are first- and second-generation Latin American immigrants who have flowed into New Jersey, and elsewhere in the nation, over the past two decades, said Kim Smith, a professor at Brigham Young University in Utah, former Short Hills resident and past Scotch Plains stake president.
John Almeida, president of Newark’s English-speaking Mormon group, said about a third of all congregations are Hispanic, many coming from Ecuador, Brazil and elsewhere in South and Central America. Ramirez, for example, said he converted to Mormonism in native Peru before moving to Newark in 1979.

Presently, there are three different congregations in Newark: Portuguese, Spanish and English-speaking groups. They rent space in the Wilson Towers in Newark’s Ironbound, and stagger their Sunday services so there is room for everyone.
 
Gayle
Gayle 3 years ago

LDS women organised a pantsuit day to challenge enforced skirt and dress wearing attitudes.)
Trying to picture that at Kingdom Halls and Assemblies! I'd have to see a picture of that day if it happens in my lifetime.
He seemed to be saying that there was a majority of congregations in his circuit that averaged around 40-50 pubs.
U.S. and Britain avg. 85 avg pubs per cong (2012) and Worldwide 67 Avg. pubs per cong.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 3 years ago

Once you get down that low, it only takes a few defections to make the congregation non-viable and shut it down - or combine it with another.
That's already happening here. At least 5 congs closed and merged here and adjacent circuits. It's not just faders and those who are leaving, attendance by the faithful is at an all time low.
Doc
 
fresh prince of ohio
fresh prince of ohio 3 years ago

The thing about the WTS is that it has NOTHING TO OFFER other than authoritarianism. That's all it really is anymore. They've painted themselves into a corner where liberalization is impossible - because the religion itself is so utterly dry and lifeless, that without the fear and threats and the claims of AUTHORITAHHHH, why would ANYONE continue with that drudgery?
 

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Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr 3 years ago 85 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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Quarterback
Quarterback 3 years ago

My neighbours next door to me were Mormons. I really didn't know this, and they never revealed this to me, It was later when two Mormon Elders came to my house, and told us about them. They also mentioned that they were inactive. Since then I always wondered what Mormons have to do to become inactive. They only do missionary service for two years. Does their inactivity have something to do about their tithing?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

When I was active the definition was attending once a quarter - so 4 visits a year though active members will tend to go every week. Our church (ward) had over 300 members on the list at one stage ( I was the clerk )and ,at it's peak,50% were active. With a handful of exceptions everyone baptised while I was active left pretty quickly and became 'less active'. I handed my resignation notice in two weeks ago (my friend was released as Bishop and I didn't want him to have to process it) but I found some interesting hearsay that says my name will still be counted in official figures , I of course have no way of checking but it would help explain continued reported growth figures when the evidence on the ground is plain to see. Also I read that no Stakes ( groups of churches in a local area ) have been created due to expansion since 1996 in the uk, take that with a pinch of salt for now though I haven't verified it.
 
besty
besty 3 years ago

noticed the huge advert on the floor at London Charing X
 
yadda yadda 2
yadda yadda 2 3 years ago

I'd like to see any status, graphs, charts, etc that backs-up your claim that the LDS have gone into negative growth.
 
irondork
irondork 3 years ago

tag
 
rebel8
rebel8 3 years ago

That's good news.
chart comparing ex-Jehovah's Witnesses with ex-Mormons FYI
 
TD
TD 3 years ago

...because the religion itself is so utterly dry and lifeless
That strikes a chord. LDS services are every bit as dry and lifeless as JW services. Of course there is always more to a religion than the formal services themselves.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 3 years ago

I remember having a couple of Mor[m]ons living below me about 10 years ago, and it seems they were always attending some church function. Every other UPS package was from Utah. They were always running around. To me, it is a waste of time--and money. Any church that extorts 10% on the gross has to go, and good riddance. Next up, the jokehovian witlesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Moonies, and the Scientologists. These also have to go.
Personally, it wouldn't bother me one bit if every single Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religion disappeared from the face of the earth and never came back. And every religion touched by one of these pieces of rubbish was returned to its pristine, uncorrupted condition so people can actually learn spirituality without seeking joke-hova, jesus, or allah. I don't have any respect for any of these parasitic religions that seek to enslave humanity, reduce life to worshiping a tyrant, and that bash women and homosexuals. And that lie about Satan--lies that are so blatant if anyone cares to read the first 3 chapters of Genesis in any common LIE-ble, but without bias.
 
ranmac
ranmac 3 years ago

I like the NewOrderMormon forum. Its alot like this this one but a little more civil.
I think the LDS need to be a little more aggressive and controling. You can't have a loony belief system and a moderate allowance of skeptisism.
 
jj123jj123
jj123jj123 3 years ago

http://mollymuses.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/mormon-flow-chart-for-your-soul/
 
cofty
cofty 3 years ago

That Mormon flow chart is briliant!
 
exwhyzee
exwhyzee 3 years ago

Encouraging their members go to College was the Mormons first mistake. JW's knew better than to let the the flock get smart enough to see beyond their fear tactics and flimsy doctrines that over and over again fell flat with time.
 
Satanus
Satanus 3 years ago

My goddess. Thats quite a flowchart. I wonder, do souls fall through the cracks quite often?
S
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Yadda , I've put out some feelers to see if any of the other ex-mo people in the fb group have access to something concrete but so far nothing. It's very difficult to come up with concrete stats from the outside and also at the church level you only have local figures and you need to be a stake clerk to know the next level up and so on so fewer and fewer people have the real picture. What I will do is get a picture of the stage one chapel that was destined to be a stake centre (stage three expanded building) and show the sold land. I also had a look to see if I could point out the drop in UK tithing according to the charitable donations reports but something very screwy is going on there as 2011 shows an unusual leap in donations which I'll see if I can find an explanation for ( hint it isn't the members paying more in the middle of a recession .)
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/FinancialHistory.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=242451&SubsidiaryNumber=0
Ok wasn't too hard, increased donations from parent company(Utah) , lumping in missionary donations and support costs ( missionaries get donations from home churches), whopping land donation (read moving internal assets around possibly for tax purposes). I'll do a better analysis of actual member contributions and graph it.
 
steve2
steve2 3 years ago

The chief difference between The Mormons and The Witnesses is this: The Mormons have more archirecturally stunning buildings for the rank and file to photo-pose in front of. Even when I was a much better-looking young JW, the local quick-build Kingdom Hall was a feeble foil to my ravishing good looks. Give me a LDS temple anyday.
 
irondork
irondork 3 years ago

Steve2: Even when I was a much better-looking young JW, the local quick-build Kingdom Hall was a feeble foil to my ravishing good look s.
Oh, lord! LOL

edit: Oh, Latter Day Saint!
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 3 years ago

Mormons have been declining for some time as census returns in various countries show. Official Mormon numbers are nonsense because they add those who join but do not subtract those who leave. Imagine what JW numbers would look like if they continued to count every person who has ever been baptised, but no longer goes to meetings our out preaching. That's what the Mormon church does.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago




This is my attempt to extrapolate some useful figures. Hope it helps!
Dang - wrong scale on last graph. buggerbuggerbugger.
Also no exact idea why church baptism rate / growth is not clearly linked. Assume that baptism doesn't include baptising children of record (born ins) and so the actual baptismal rate / membership loss through death and resignation is masked. Shrugs.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 years ago

Qcmbr; did you become a Mormon first and then a Dub or the other way around, never met a Morman/jw before, how did you find your life within each group?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Sorry never a JW, always Mormon. My LDS life was amazingly good in most cases. It just wasn't authentic. I got tired of acting.
 

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Topic Summary
ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.




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Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr 3 years ago 85 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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jookbeard
jookbeard 3 years ago

I had a couple of former JW friends who studied with the Mormons down here , I even sat in on a study my mate had with these 2 ladies, she became frustrated with my constant requests for proof about their religious claims even getting to the pint of becoming rude and confrontational, although I found some of their "proof texts" on certain subjects fairly reasonable and they seemed to have a better knowledge of their doctrine and scripture then most equivalent Dubs, another mate (ex jw) almost made the full step into it , even attending the Temple in Mitcham, I see there is a big temple in Ewell as well.
 
venetian
venetian 3 years ago

Lol! Now I know why there was a huge advert on the side of a London bus last week. If I remember it had a picture of a normal woman with the caption "I'm a Mormon" on the side. With this message it looks like the LDS church is trying to ditch the cult image it has and normalise itself. Fat chance.
 
Fencing
Fencing 3 years ago

It is kind of humorous that they were salivating at the chance of getting one of their own into the White House because their theology calls for it, but getting a candidate into the final two ended up shining a huge spotlight on their weirdness that they were not prepared for and could end up causing vastly more harm.
Encouraging their members go to College was the Mormons first mistake. JW's knew better than to let the the flock get smart enough to see beyond their fear tactics and flimsy doctrines that over and over again fell flat with time.
Aren't they, in the US at least, subtly "encouraged" and expected to go to BYU?
 
jam
jam 3 years ago

I posted a topic a few weeks ago, my son is dating
a lovely Mormon lady, out of the frying pan into the fire.
He met her folks (practicing Mormons). They have four kids,
three are not Mormons. Iam concern about this relationship.
First of all, she (son girl freind) still attend regular and she and
her mom are very close. And secondly, my son is black and she
blonde (white). Concern about the past history of Mormons (blacks).
They are moving in togather next week. I see problems with this
relationship. They are both in their 30,s and both in established
careers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

Some more info. I'm itching to get the 2012 Uk charity report to see if it reveals the big loss of the year that I've seen. In the meantime:
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2011/05/the-church-is-losing-us-how-can-they-keep-us/
Glossary: RM (Returned missionary)
"... Other trends include:
(Most info taken from Ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com and Cumorah.com ):
 -The drop-out rate/retention rate among RMs is disturbingly high.
– This year, the church experienced it’s first Stake Shutdown, or First Stake Consolidation In Australia
-The number of actual convert baptisms has decreased almost steadily since the 80′s. This is based on the annual statistical report delivered in Gen. Conference.
-Most of the growth of “The Church” continues to be natural growth, through births rather than conversions. However, baptisms of children-of-record are declining too.
 -Growth of Mormonism in the North America and Europe is virtually flat and is actually declining in some countries (prompting the shift from European missions to South American ones.)
- With the exception of new “minority” wards being created in some inner cities, Mormonism is dying off in urban centers, even in SLC.
- Most conversions to Mormonism are in the Third World, and the drop-out rate in those countries is very high. Surveys done in Mexico, Chile, and Brazil indicate that less than 20% of the “members” claimed by “The Church” self-identify as Mormons."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history



 
joe134cd
joe134cd 3 years ago

Sorry to disappoint everyone. But there was a front page article in this country saying that since Romney had spotlighted the Mormon church that they had significantly grown in this country, and that the church although surprised was delighted with the out come.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 3 years ago

These are the firesides being given. This sort of thing would have been unthinkable a few years ago:
http://terrylgivens.com/events/
joe - there may well be a small uptick in actual numbers but the church is losing core members unlike before when it was the new, flaky converts. I think the stats for the next few years will be very revealing.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Just a quick update:
&sns=fb
 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 2 years ago

Creepy watching that video of them walking around, they look exactly like a JW convention!
Q- Do you think those numbers are accurate, that there are 14 million LDS but only 5 million active?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

Hi - nope - the actual figures are much lower. The 14 million include those who have taken their names off the membership records but are still counted.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

As of 31 December 2012, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reported 188,462 members in 45 stakes, 335 Congregations (286 wards[1] and 49 branches[1]), 6 missions, and 2 temples in the United Kingdom. (wikipaedia)
I'm part of an active ex LDs community and in a straw poll of the 200 members of that group a rough average active membership per ward , being generous, was 120.
120 * 335 = 40200.
188462 - 40200 = 148262 inactive members in the UK.
 
sir82
sir82 2 years ago

Do the Mormons have any method, even internal (not for R&F consumption) method for tracking their "active" members?
JWs have a very convenient method for doing so - field service reports. If you turn in a report, you are "counted". And if you have turned in a report, you must at least have teh desire to appear to be active, and likely are integrated into the JW community. So it is a reasonable way of counting JW "actives".
If JWs ever stopped requiring field service reports to be turned in, within 5 years you'd see similar ratios (the "real" JW count would plummet by well over 50%).
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 2 years ago

The ward clerk takes meeting attendance counts and provides a monthly report.
 
cantleave
cantleave 2 years ago

Thanks for the Update. Its great to see these cults losing their grip.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 2 years ago

Interesting update. Just like JWs, they are ready to blame those who leave rather than admit that the problem is the church itself.
 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 2 years ago

It is tough being a cult in this world today. The gravy days are over. Blame it on the internet.
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

BTTT
 
Jeffro
Jeffro 2 years ago

It's probably just a co-incidence, but I noticed in the graph above that there was a spike in LDS membership in 1975. I wonder how many of those were disaffected JWs.
 
steve2
steve2 2 years ago

When there were more Mormons around, that was confusing enough, but now there are fewer Mormons around, the confusion continues. More, less, fewer, greater - all I know is they still try to run me off the road as they bike two-by-two along narrow country roads as I nervously negotiate a straighter, Mormon-free road ahead.
 
Violia
Violia 2 years ago

Money and women rights, gays, and racism- it will get all of them eventually. Follow the money.
 

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Topic Summary
ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.




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A POP QUIZ about the origin of "NEW LIGHT"
by Terry a month ago
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Polish BOE Re: Legal matters and revised charter for Poland
by wifibandit 4 months ago
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Mormons vs. Jehovah's Witnesses
by Downtowner 3 months ago
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Massive Plunge in Number of New JW Congregations from 1990 to 2014
by steve2 4 months ago
TerryWalstrom
LEFTOVERS and STOLEN LIGHT (An historical look at Watchtower laziness and misadventure)
by TerryWalstrom 8 months ago




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Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr 3 years ago 85 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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joe134cd
joe134cd 2 years ago

I've meet a Mormon / dubbie he was a good friend of mine when I was a dubbie.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr a year ago

Additional Stats from UK for mormon collapse plus reddit fugures breakdown plus my ha'penneth:
◦UK LDS church is leaking money and is being supported by US mother church.
◦Average activity rate of members, calculated by tithing and observation, is ~11 - 17%
◦Despite 1700 baptisms, I presume excluding baptisms of children of members, actual fugures decreased by 1000. This indicates the more considered step of name removal (most just fade); the total membership figures include convert baptisms and children of record baptisms so to actually decrease by 1000 means 1700+500 (made up - its higher) = 2200 ergo 3200 had their name removed or died - that indicates a drop in membership of 10 people per church unit in 1 year. Mainly hard core members opt for name removal (it actually means something to them and is worth the effort.) The figures reported absolutely hide a decrease in activity. The closure of operating church units and the lack of new buildings does not.
◦2014 effect of essays and further disaffections not yet in stats. Will be very interesting.
http://www.mormonfileleaks.com/finances.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2pibtd/lds_accounts_for_uk_in_2013_summary_in_comments/
 
bohm
bohm a year ago

Thank you for the update, this is very interesting information.
 
Apognophos
Apognophos a year ago

It's surprising to me that Mormons could be in decline and not Witnesses -- as someone pointed out here recently, Mormons are encouraged to have children and Witnesses are discouraged from doing so. Then again, Mormons do much less preaching than JWs do.
 
joe134cd
joe134cd a year ago

Marked
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago



Apognophos - "It's surprising to me that Mormons could be in decline and not Witnesses..."
I suspect one of the reasons JWs aren't "in decline" is simply because the leadership is fudging the numbers that would support that conclusion.
Say what you will about the LDS, but they have a much better track record of honesty than the WTS.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr a year ago

I suspect the shunning mandate is the major difference. The Mormons were smug enough to actually think they were right and wouldn't need any further shackles. Now with the latest church admissions on hot topics the core members are either hunkering down into extra committment mode or leaving.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago



I suspect the shunning mandate is the major difference. The Mormons were smug enough to actually think they were right and wouldn't need any further shackles. Now with the latest church admissions on hot topics the core members are either hunkering down into extra committment mode or leaving.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking... I know mormons do occasionally shun those who leave, but I thought it was more them being super self righteous, not something they did to avoid being shunned themselves, like it is with the JWs.
Mormons also encourage higher education. In the past that probably didn't hurt them too much, but as the world gets more and more secular that's going to cause problems.
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder a year ago

The science of DNA analysis was a huge nail in the LDS coffin.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a year ago

The Borg announced the closure of something like 295 KH's in Spain and a condensing of congregations in to as many as 4 per hall in the UK. This sounds like a hollowing out to me.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago



Crazyguy - "The Borg announced the closure of something like 295 KH's in Spain and a condensing of congregations in to as many as 4 per hall in the UK. This sounds like a hollowing out to me."
Yeah, no indication of decline there...
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@crazyguy check your facts cause your information is not correct
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy a year ago

I have met several Ex-Mormons who are devoted to exposing that religion, and from what they tell me, the Mormons aren't nearly as bad as the JW's when it comes to shunning, dishonest recruiting practices, etc etc. About the only negative thing I could come up with is they can't drink coffee or soft drinks. They do have a whacky doctrine, but given a choice, if I could go back and pick my childhood religion, I would choose Mormon any day!
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

The plus factors for Mormons vs. JW's are vast.
The social programs actually address family life, young people, earning a living, practical finances, etc.
I've never met a stupid Mormon, which is more than I can say for JW's.
A large number of upper-level Mormons have been exposed to factual disproofs from Science.
The official line is now, "Yes, these things may not be factually true, but by talking about it we are not being faith-affirming."
Oh, okay.
Faith is much more important than reality. Right. Uh huh.
 
sir82
sir82 a year ago



@crazyguy check your facts cause your information is not correct
Not sure about the UK stuff but heard a first-hand account that the info about KH closures in Spain is 100% true.
Many KHs in Europe are in rented facilities, so I think a lot of the closures are of that nature (move out when your lease is up). Congregations will be packed 4 and 5 deep into existing owned KHs.
I suspect it is more of a financial issue than a "declining numbers" issue. If congregations are not paying rent, there is more money that can be sent to the WTS branch office.
 
insidetheKH
insidetheKH a year ago

@sir82 no its not 100% true cause the same official letter speaks about building entirely new Kingdom Halls and refurbish a lot of them too. So what is happening is abandoning old/rented buildings and build new ones.
More and more you see that they build new Halls with more than one auditorium or make with 2 or 3 congregations use of one audiorium on different days and times. That only makes sense in areas with a good number of congregations.
It has nothing to do with decline or hollowing out, but is all about ownership, cost reduction and efficiency.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago



but is all about ownership
I suspect that has a lot to do with it...just probably not in the way you meant it...
 
sir82
sir82 a year ago

OK, between the 2 of us, I think we have it.
Yes, hundreds of KHs are going to be shuttered in Spain.
And yes, there are plans to build new ones.
And yes, it is due to wanting to own property, rather than renting it.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a year ago

I think were both right new halls will be built for mutiple congregations and ownership issues but at the same time this allows for them to quietly delete congregations with out anyone knowing the numbers are down. Some one posted here that they know a co in a circuit near Seattle Wa, and he was told by this co that there lossing half a dozen people per circuit per assembly. No way to know for sure but the last few circuit assemblies I attended seemed down in numbers as well as the District assemblies. But there always changing things around so it hard to tell. Maybe that's the reason why so people won't figure out that the numbers of people attending are down.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a year ago



I think were both right new halls will be built for mutiple congregations and ownership issues but at the same time this allows for them to quietly delete congregations with out anyone knowing the numbers are down. Some one posted here that they know a co in a circuit near Seattle Wa, and he was told by this co that there lossing half a dozen people per circuit per assembly. No way to know for sure but the last few circuit assemblies I attended seemed down in numbers as well as the District assemblies. But there always changing things around so it hard to tell. Maybe that's the reason why so people won't figure out that the numbers of people attending are down.
On the topic of anecdotal evidence for decline, I'll add my observations: The last CO visit we had, in his final talk he said what boils down to - the elders have expressed concern to me about meeting attendence, but I don't think it's a problem because your congregation has some of the best meeting attendence in the circuit. Our meeting attendence is probably 70-80% on sundays and 50-70% on the mid-week meetings. That was never passable when I was a kid (we'd get local needs talks if it dropped below 90% for sundays) in the same area so something must've changed. I think the trend is that meeting attendence is dropping everywhere and they've switched from trying to recover the ones that are leaving to trying to put on a good face so that the ones who are still there don't leave too.
 

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Topic Summary
ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.




Related Topics
Terry
A POP QUIZ about the origin of "NEW LIGHT"
by Terry a month ago
wifibandit
Polish BOE Re: Legal matters and revised charter for Poland
by wifibandit 4 months ago
Downtowner
Mormons vs. Jehovah's Witnesses
by Downtowner 3 months ago
steve2
Massive Plunge in Number of New JW Congregations from 1990 to 2014
by steve2 4 months ago
TerryWalstrom
LEFTOVERS and STOLEN LIGHT (An historical look at Watchtower laziness and misadventure)
by TerryWalstrom 8 months ago




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Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr 3 years ago 85 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower beliefs
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JWdaughter
JWdaughter a year ago

A KH in the Seattle area that had 6 congregations meeting there have been condensed to 4 congregations (they combined 4 of them into 2 and left two intact).
When they are having 4-6 congregations meet in one building, that means everyone is driving much farther (good thing they no longer have to go to their very much more local book study groups!).
Saying that they are doing this with plans to build MORE halls is great-but with the new KH building scheme, it will be interesting to see how that works in reality. They could build nice new building using the WT money, pt them in there for a few months and then condense them again because "it makes more sense" then selling the building that they hyped and got donations for (not unlike the Spanish Bethel).
OR, they could let the congregations get comfy cosy for awhile and announce that they were fitting just fine into the building that they are in, or they can sell that one, add a bunch of hype and move them ALL into a new condensed facility (after selling off 4+) and then regularly downsize because of changing needs. we all know they play the game and we all see it in fact.
As to Mormons, having experience with both religions, I'd totally prefer being a LDS child than a JW one. Even the boys who have to serve (insincere or obligatory ) missions are only stuck with it for 2 years, come home, finish the last 2-3 years of college and get married at some point (often while in college). These people have a better standard of and quality of life. They are not obligatory outcasts from normal life, not expected to seek poverty and are (just as mch as JWs) expected to live morally clean lives. They do however, get a lot more forgiveness when they "slip" and are not made outcasts or usually harshly treated. The exception is those who publicly oppose their policy (not unlike JWs), but most LDS just go inactive (perhaps enough to be called "Jack" mormons, but usually just stay low key about it) and keep their loved ones. I knew one who had been Excommunicated and he was still loved, adored and supported by his family no matter what-and trust me, the guy had a LOT of what's! They are programmed for success, supported through hard times and surrounded with a very supportive structure. For most, even if the details of religion are shallow, the basic ethics of morals and hard work and being a good citizen are very traditionally normal. Many are trying to love God in the way they understand.
When God expects perfect understanding, he can come down and tell us all personally. The truth is that the issue of things being real truth does matter and the things that are pure nonsense to LDS folks are hard to accept once they are willing to examine them. The WT is a lot sneakier and more insidious with their lies, IMO.
 
Apognophos
Apognophos a year ago

OEJ, interesting anecdote. I too remember when those attendance numbers would have been unacceptable. I'll have to listen for our numbers next time the CO comes here.
 
joe134cd
joe134cd a year ago

Jw daughter I'm just curious but how did you come to gave experience with both religions.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a year ago

Something else to consider, attrition of the elderly. It has to be said that the majority of ones in the religion are up in age agree? If this is true then maybe these bean counters for the Borg know that these ones will die off in huge numbers in the coming few years leaving a much smaller religion without the need for more kingdom halls. So condense now, sell off a bunch of properties for profit and wait and stall until the numbers drop. With all the elderly gone no need for any new halls. What do you think of this theory?
 
dozy
dozy a year ago

Interesting topic - thanks for the posts.
In terms of recruitment , I often found that the few "interested" ones that we met were also being contacted by the Mormons. I remember when I was a pioneer on several occasions doing a RV & finding that the Mormons were already at the door or on at least one occasion they ( rather cheekily ) actually walked down the path when I was speaking to the householder. So I would assume the kind of people who potentially would be attracted to becoming a JW are also being reached by the Mormons. Both groups are fighting over what must now be a tiny pool of convertable recruits.
As far as JW numbers in the UK are concerned , it's hard to put exact figures on it - at best , pretty much flatlined , probably marginally losing members offset somewhat by immigrants. All I know from my own observations & anecdotal reports is that overall the JW population is getting older and the number of genuinely committed JWs ( equivalent to TBMs in Mormon parlance ) is pretty small. The younger generation ( 2nd / 3rd even 4th generation JWs ) are basically in it for social reasons and are basically the equivalent of the "Jack Mormons" . My own nephews , for example , some of whom are MS , are basically no different from most "wordly" young ones of a similar age - interested in girls , chilling out and playing X Box games , social networking , sports etc.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter a year ago

I was raised in a JW home and my best friends were LDS at school-as I started mentally pulling away from JW thought, I was trying to nurture friends that woldn't lead me into a bunch of stereotypical apostate kind of trouble. I was never a wild child. . I did a lot of things with LDS friends socially and went to church and until today, am very good friends with one of them, and two have passed away (from actually going apostate to LDS thinking, sadly) and most ofthe rest,though I am not close,are still very much the nice kids, all grown up into nice family people. I think one is way too smart-genius, I think) and analytical and it makes him pretty unhappy about his place inthe church (hes a bishop, with at least 5 kids at last count). I think he would fade away if he could get away with it but I think it is a lot easier for (even baptised) LDS to fade out before marriage or after a divorce (when everyone is too busy being polite to pester you). His family is in it hardcore and now his kids and his wife is the classic good mormon wife. I don't think he hates his everyday life or the responsibilities (they are heavy and they are unpaid clergy, too, with bigger congregations, more social programs and duties than JWs have). It really is a whole lifestyle. If he would have just faded before marriage, his family would not make a big deal. NOW, its a big deal.
I got into that church because I liked the people in it. I never bought the stories, but I liked the lifestyle and my friends. When I left the church, withdrew my membership 3 years after joining, my friends and their famlies knew, and none of them shunned me to this day. I tried finding the "perfect" church. There isn't any. Jesus said, and I believe it, though I am not christian, that you will know his followers by their love. I have met a lot of Chrsitians and non Christians in a lot of different christian denonimations. I have even met NON christians who, according to that one definition of a follower of Jesus, follow him. JWs,LDS, SB, RC's. Not one religion has a brand on being followers of Jesus.
 

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Topic Summary
ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.




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greetings fellow apostates!
by SethMo 8 years ago 49 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

I should introduce myself, since this is my first post. I'm actually not an ex-JW, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the Mormon church. I've long suspected that in terms of the organizational aspects of our two churches, how they hook you mentally, how they condition you, how they socialize you and make it very hard to leave, from an abstract level there's really not a dime's worth of difference.
The more I read of you guys' struggles and experiences as you realized that the church you might well have been born into and grown up in wasn't really "The Truth" after all, the more I realize that if you just change some JW jargon for Mormon versions, a lot of you guys' stories would be exactly the same as ours.
I served a full-time LDS (mormon) mission, and where I went, I ran into a lot of JWs. At first I was more argumentative and confrontational, but eventually I took a different point of view. I realized that I was in a country (Switzerland and Germany) where really nobody wanted to hear what I had to say about my religion, and just about the only other people who understood that experience of constant rejection were the JWs. Sure, the JWs didn't have the "real" Truth like I did, but they knew what it was like to actually be a missionary and go through all of that. I actually had a more collegial attitude toward the JWs I would run into on the street after that. I daresay most of them regarded me as some kind of heathen though, not having the "real" Truth like they did. :smile:
Anyhow, I'm in a situation that ought to sound familiar to you guys. I have come to realize that Joseph Smith was not one of the greatest men who ever lived, as I'd grown up being taught, but rather he was a fraud, a charlatan, a player who debauched women in the name of God, who set himself up as a light unto the world, but who, in the end, was making it up as he went along. The problem is, my wife still believes. Most of her family still believes. All of my family believe. We don't have the whole official shunning thing that you guys do, but there's a sort of de facto shunning that a lot of ex-Mormons will experience from members based on fear. It's fear that you've been corrupted somehow, and that it might rub off on them.
To a true-believing Mormon, the church is so obviously true, and lead by God, that the only way someone can lose that testimony is if they somehow are lead astray by Satan. Who wants to have anything to do with a guy who is under Satan's influence? Can we blame them? Yeah, from the outside, they're brainwashed fools, but from the inside, they're just protecting themselves from the wiles of the Devil.
So my wife's had a very hard time with this. More than once she's threatened me with divorce. She tells me that this isn't what she bargained for when she married me. She married a man who would lead her to the Celestial Kingdom (the Mormon conception of heaven), and now instead she finds herself married to a guy who not only has no interest in the Celestial Kingdom, but could well pull her down with me. Let me tell you, it's been pretty rough.
Unlike the JWs, since there's no officialy mandated shunning, we get web forums where defenders of the faith, ie: Mormon apologists, will argue with Mormon critics, including ex-Mormons, about the church, the evidence that shows it's not true, etc. I've been participating on a couple of these boards for some time, and I have to say, it's really amazing just how brainwashed the true believers really are. And that was me.
I had the strongest possible testimony that the LDS church was true. I knew it. I took it for granted. It was a bedrock value in my life which influenced my thinking about anything and everything. Small chinks in my belief system came up over the years because of things like the debate over Evolution, which I believe is a true description of how species developed, the Noah's Ark story, which I believe is pure mythology, etc. I believed in Evolution, and figured that the LDS leaders, whom we sustain as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, were simply wrong about it. They were also simply wrong about Noah's Ark. But none of that really mattered, none of it threatened my faith in the church's truthfulness, because those details were not the important ones. They were not necessary to my salvation. What was necessary to maintain faith was believe in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, which would underpin belief in his church, and a belief in the atonement of Jesus Christ.
After all, Noah's Ark may not have happened, but if Jesus's atonement didn't happen, then it was all wrong.
I lived my life with these little chinks in my belief, growing ever so slowly wider, until a couple of years ago. That's when I read some really damning material about Joseph Smith. My faith was threatened. I was scared. I know what it feels like to fear that the belief system one has lived his whole life by is actually not true. When you guys say this in your posts on this forum I know exactly what you mean. I felt it too. It was so hard to accept that I literally had to force myself, as a matter of will, to recognize even as just a possibility that the church might not be true, and let the chips fall where they may.
That was sort of like a threshold for me. Once I forced myself to acknowledge the possibility, hitherto impossible in my mind, that the church wasn't really true, the whole edifice of my faith crumbled rather quickly. I let the chips fall where they may, and they indicated to me that in fact the LDS church was just as not true, just as manmade, and just as lead by man, as any other church.
I was raised thinking the LDS church was special. We, alone out of all of the world's religions and churches, actually had The Truth, and that was a very special thing. I used to thank God that I'd been born a Mormon. I imagined, almost with a shudder, what my life might have been like had I not been blessed to have been born into the true church. I imagine a lot of you probably felt the exact same way about the JWs.
Now I realize that the LDS church is not special, literally. It's not the sole true church on the Earth. It's just one of thousands of non-true churches. It's just one more drop in the bucket of wishful thinking and institutionalized mythology that is the world's religions.
And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives.
I guess if this post has much of a point it's that you guys should recognize that your experiences aren't unique to the JWs. As I've long suspected, these are the experiences that are pretty common to people who somehow manage to free their minds from the flypaper of false religion, or from religion in general. I listened to a podcast a year or so ago from a guy who had left the JWs, and he described his experiences, and I swear if you just changed a few jargonized words, and skipped the official shunning, this story could have been exactly like a guy leaving the Mormons. It's fascinating to me.
I can't promise I'll participate much on this forum. As much as we have in common regarding the nature of our experiences and the struggles our leaving our faiths causes us, still I don't have the exact same specific experiences that bind you ex-JWs together.
 
SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

OMG. All of my paragraph breaks were lost. Guys, I'm sorry, I honestly didn't just write a solid wall of text, but somehow I've misunderstood how to format the post properly. And I don't seem to be able to edit the post either. Arg, I apologize.
 
tula
tula 8 years ago

Welcome to the board.
Don't worry about your paragraphs. Someone will come in and fix it for you soon. It will be re-posted below. I don't know how to do it, or I would.
I read your Book of Mormon many years ago.
And way long before I ever read the book, I had a mormon friend when I was in 6th grade.
I went to an "ice cream social" with her.
The one thing that I can say was nice about the religion is the family closeness I saw, and that so many of the functions were centered around including all of the family together.
I think I have been in almost any kind of church there is. Except maybe the Hare Krishnas
But alas, we find the teachings in all of the religions are wrong and the motives are corrupt...not just mormons and Jdubs.
I think there is more heartache and destruction in cult groups than in "christendom" in general. christendom is corrupt, too. You know they are all going to fly out of here and leave the rest of us here to suffer. I think the suffering here has already reached its saturation point. They can go fly anytime!
SethMo, you have a home here anytime you want to post and talk to someone.
 
TheSilence
TheSilence 8 years ago

Hope I put them in the spots you would...
I should introduce myself, since this is my first post. I'm actually not an ex-JW, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the Mormon church. I've long suspected that in terms of the organizational aspects of our two churches, how they hook you mentally, how they condition you, how they socialize you and make it very hard to leave, from an abstract level there's really not a dime's worth of difference. The more I read of you guys' struggles and experiences as you realized that the church you might well have been born into and grown up in wasn't really "The Truth" after all, the more I realize that if you just change some JW jargon for Mormon versions, a lot of you guys' stories would be exactly the same as ours. I served a full-time LDS (mormon) mission, and where I went, I ran into a lot of JWs. At first I was more argumentative and confrontational, but eventually I took a different point of view. I realized that I was in a country (Switzerland and Germany) where really nobody wanted to hear what I had to say about my religion, and just about the only other people who understood that experience of constant rejection were the JWs. Sure, the JWs didn't have the "real" Truth like I did, but they knew what it was like to actually be a missionary and go through all of that. I actually had a more collegial attitude toward the JWs I would run into on the street after that. I daresay most of them regarded me as some kind of heathen though, not having the "real" Truth like they did. :smile: Anyhow, I'm in a situation that ought to sound familiar to you guys. I have come to realize that Joseph Smith was not one of the greatest men who ever lived, as I'd grown up being taught, but rather he was a fraud, a charlatan, a player who debauched women in the name of God, who set himself up as a light unto the world, but who, in the end, was making it up as he went along. The problem is, my wife still believes. Most of her family still believes. All of my family believe. We don't have the whole official shunning thing that you guys do, but there's a sort of de facto shunning that a lot of ex-Mormons will experience from members based on fear. It's fear that you've been corrupted somehow, and that it might rub off on them. To a true-believing Mormon, the church is so obviously true, and lead by God, that the only way someone can lose that testimony is if they somehow are lead astray by Satan. Who wants to have anything to do with a guy who is under Satan's influence? Can we blame them? Yeah, from the outside, they're brainwashed fools, but from the inside, they're just protecting themselves from the wiles of the Devil. So my wife's had a very hard time with this. More than once she's threatened me with divorce. She tells me that this isn't what she bargained for when she married me. She married a man who would lead her to the Celestial Kingdom (the Mormon conception of heaven), and now instead she finds herself married to a guy who not only has no interest in the Celestial Kingdom, but could well pull her down with me. Let me tell you, it's been pretty rough. Unlike the JWs, since there's no officialy mandated shunning, we get web forums where defenders of the faith, ie: Mormon apologists, will argue with Mormon critics, including ex-Mormons, about the church, the evidence that shows it's not true, etc. I've been participating on a couple of these boards for some time, and I have to say, it's really amazing just how brainwashed the true believers really are. And that was me. I had the strongest possible testimony that the LDS church was true. I knew it. I took it for granted. It was a bedrock value in my life which influenced my thinking about anything and everything. Small chinks in my belief system came up over the years because of things like the debate over Evolution, which I believe is a true description of how species developed, the Noah's Ark story, which I believe is pure mythology, etc. I believed in Evolution, and figured that the LDS leaders, whom we sustain as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, were simply wrong about it. They were also simply wrong about Noah's Ark. But none of that really mattered, none of it threatened my faith in the church's truthfulness, because those details were not the important ones. They were not necessary to my salvation. What was necessary to maintain faith was believe in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, which would underpin belief in his church, and a belief in the atonement of Jesus Christ. After all, Noah's Ark may not have happened, but if Jesus's atonement didn't happen, then it was all wrong. I lived my life with these little chinks in my belief, growing ever so slowly wider, until a couple of years ago. That's when I read some really damning material about Joseph Smith. My faith was threatened. I was scared. I know what it feels like to fear that the belief system one has lived his whole life by is actually not true. When you guys say this in your posts on this forum I know exactly what you mean. I felt it too. It was so hard to accept that I literally had to force myself, as a matter of will, to recognize even as just a possibility that the church might not be true, and let the chips fall where they may. That was sort of like a threshold for me. Once I forced myself to acknowledge the possibility, hitherto impossible in my mind, that the church wasn't really true, the whole edifice of my faith crumbled rather quickly. I let the chips fall where they may, and they indicated to me that in fact the LDS church was just as not true, just as manmade, and just as lead by man, as any other church. I was raised thinking the LDS church was special. We, alone out of all of the world's religions and churches, actually had The Truth, and that was a very special thing. I used to thank God that I'd been born a Mormon. I imagined, almost with a shudder, what my life might have been like had I not been blessed to have been born into the true church. I imagine a lot of you probably felt the exact same way about the JWs. Now I realize that the LDS church is not special, literally. It's not the sole true church on the Earth. It's just one of thousands of non-true churches. It's just one more drop in the bucket of wishful thinking and institutionalized mythology that is the world's religions. And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives. I guess if this post has much of a point it's that you guys should recognize that your experiences aren't unique to the JWs. As I've long suspected, these are the experiences that are pretty common to people who somehow manage to free their minds from the flypaper of false religion, or from religion in general. I listened to a podcast a year or so ago from a guy who had left the JWs, and he described his experiences, and I swear if you just changed a few jargonized words, and skipped the official shunning, this story could have been exactly like a guy leaving the Mormons. It's fascinating to me. I can't promise I'll participate much on this forum. As much as we have in common regarding the nature of our experiences and the struggles our leaving our faiths causes us, still I don't have the exact same specific experiences that bind you ex-JWs together.
 
jgnat
jgnat 8 years ago

Welcome, SethMo. I'm the non-JW partner of a mixed marriage, so I can definitely relate to some of the difficulties you have had working things through with your wife. She does have a legitimate beef. You changed the program partway through. But in the end you had to be true to who you are. Now, it's a matter of helping her reconcile to who you have become.
Have you ever run across Steve Hassan's books on Combatting Cult Mind Control? I hear his second book is even better. Hassan helped me recognize the difference between my husband's natural personality and the put-on cult personality. If you learn to do this, you can coax your wife's natural self to the surface more and more. Hey, you two got married because there was SOMETHING about you that clicked. Help those natural attributes come to the fore, and you can have more peace in the home. Hey, it helped me, maybe it can help you, too.
I think anything you can do to reassure her that you are no threat to HER spirituality can't hurt. I often talk to my husband about God's love and abundant forgiveness. I ask him if he is worthy to open the lamb's book if life. If he isn't, why does he feel it necessary to judge who will or will not be approved? Leave it up to God, I say, and I bet a lot more people will be approved than he could ever imagine.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Hi Seth. I had a great Mormon freind who was never able to release himself from the beleifs of his church. He was a very decent man but very lonely and wandered the streets for years. He taught me a few things about mormons but I was always trying to get him to think independantly. The poor guy was a vagbond and always wore the same clothes. He even sleeps outside for most of the year and frequents the missions. I guess if your not shunned you still feel the rejection from peers.
When you are officially shunned it is a death sentence and cutting off from the fold. It leaves you with no choice but to either find strength from within or find a new structure to replace the old one. It is very damaging to be shunned but they leave you with no choice, but to oppose them, as they are destroyers of families.
I don't like using the term apostate. That is a word the witnesses invented to make you feel evil and ungodly. We are simply people who disagree with thier teachings and policies and beleive in independant thinking. That sounds so much more civil.
The book of Mormon is one of the the strangest concoctions of pseudo scripture I have ever read. Its quite imaginative, and strange. Just like fiction.
I wish you well Seth and welcome you to the board. I like the way you write too, by the way, and I have always seen the similarities of our High order religions. You may have more to contribute than you think.
 
ibme
ibme 8 years ago

Welcome Sethmo Enjoyed your post. How true, how true. Thanks
 
REBORNAGAIN
REBORNAGAIN 8 years ago

Welcome Seth!
Wow, what a difference to read a posting from an Ex-Morman. Your story was super duper interesting. In my last posting I made the comment that there are numerous religions for the numerous varieties of people on this earth and nobody should criticize others for what they believe. Who has the right anyway to tell us we have to believe this or that or not believe this or that?
Your time in Europe, I can only imagine what that was like. I had lived a number of years in Germany and the people there are sooooooooooooo cold-hearted when it comes to God. The only reason that the church doors are still open, is because the people have a church tax deducted from their payroll. NO JOKE. Then of course, they think if they die, they won't get a church funeral, nor have their babies baptized if they don't contribute to these church taxes. The majority only attend church on the holidays. Anyway, the point I was wanting to make, was that whether it's the JW's or the Mormans going door to door, in Europe, it is no fun. But...was it ever fun at all? Not really. We had to get up on Saturday mornings early instead of sleeping in and then go out and wake those who were still sleeping.
Thanks for sharing with us your story. I hope because of all your relatives, that you will be able to stick to your decision to stay away and just keep listening to that inner feeling...it is always right.
God Bless You and we look forward to more postings from you. The similarities are very similar indeed.
LINDA
 
purplesofa
purplesofa 8 years ago

How kind it is of you to post your story here. Thank-you,
When I converted from Catholicism to JW, I was really leaning towards becoming a Morman. Recently when I walked away from the JW experiance, oddly enough Mormans were at my door. They thought they were guided by God. What I had thought was, had I decided to go with the Mormans instead of JW's, at the very least the Mormans believe in being educated.
I know life will work out well for you, but like all of us we are scarred. But, I think even with all the hardships of finding out the truth about the truth, for the most part we are happy.
Welcome to the Board
purps
 
eclipse
eclipse 8 years ago

Your story was very interesting to read! There is no difference between the feelings that mormons and JW's have. They have so many similarities, it's like the leaders went to the same ''brainwasher's teacher's college''.
The same tactics are used, the only thing that varies is the information taught.
They shun because they afraid that the devil or satan has gotten into our minds and they are afraid to be tainted by us. They are taught this fear. It is drummed into us from infancy...Amazing isn't it? That so many people can be so superstitious and not even realize it?
And the JW's have the audacity to ridicule those living in parts of the world where superstition is the order of the day. Their arrogance and ignorance is disgusting.
I am so glad that you escaped the mind control of the mormons. I hope that you can chip away at your wife's armor, and definitely read the book jgant recommended: combating cult mind control.
Welcome to the board! We apostates are no different...we have so much in common with you as a mormon apostate, it's eerie.
I look forward to more of your insightful and well written posts.
 
mouthy
mouthy 8 years ago

Welcome, SethMo
Yes your in "OUR" family now...FREE from false Prophets. I go to Pennsylvania every year to a convention that is run by an ex JW.Oct 19th But the EX Mormons does all the music (Harveys) Lots of ex Mormons there also.... what is the saying" birds of a feather flock together"Guess we are like the Geese - they fly in a flock & when one is hurt he flies to the ground & another ALWAYS flies down with him -either until he dies or survives -keep flying with THIS flock friend.
Great to hear from you.God bless with your other half. Just love her & it may open her heart(((HUG)))
Mouthy
 
journey-on
journey-on 8 years ago

Enjoyed reading your post, SethMo.
This stuck out to me:
because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions.
Jehovah's Witnesses have a mantra regarding Babylon the Great, who they interpret to mean false religion: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share in her destruction."
More and more, people are leaving the false doctrines and false protection of religion. Religion is man made and seekers of truth are beginning to see this. They are developing what
the Bible calls "eyes to see" and "ears to hear".
If you look at the 1800's, these type of apocalyptic religions became very prevalent. Mainstream religions such as Catholicism and Protestantism were old-fashioned and people were
looking for something new and different. Up pops these cult-type groups, and voila!...a new kind of religion is born to put their spin on it and we have Mormons, Adventists, JWs (called
Bible Students at that time), and a host of other end-times cultish kinds of groups spouting their own brand of religious interpretations.
I'm THROUGH with all religion. I seek a spiritual communion with the Divine independently. I have gotten OUT OF BTG!
 
Open mind
Open mind 8 years ago

From one human to another:
WELCOME BROTHER SETHMO!!
There are a few very regular posters here who were never JWs, so don't feel like you're not welcome.
I really enjoyed hearing your story. Thanks for sharing it.
Here's a pretty well made short film on YouTube called "The Missionary Position" that you might enjoy.






Actually, the first 1 minute & 45 seconds are hilarious and well done, IMHO. The following 4 minutes are just a stupid, overdone, very bloody, fight scene between 4 JWs and 4 Mormons. Don't bother watching the fight unless you like that sort of thing. There's nothing at the end worth seeing.
I'm guessing it was done by someone with a Mormon background because it looks to me like they're a little more accurate with the Mormon portrayal than the JWs, but then how would I know. I'm a JW. One of the 4 JWs has a goatee and none of JWs are wearing ties. They do have Watchtowers though.
Let me know what you think. I got a good chuckle.
Open Mind
 
Happy Harvester
Happy Harvester 8 years ago

Wow, Seth Mo! Welcome and congratulations. Glad you are able to integrate into the real world a bit more than before.
It's really amazing how well denial operates, allowing us to accept scientific ideas while still refusing to reject irrational beliefs we hold dear.
I have Mormon relatives, but most of my family are JWs. It has caused a good bit of alienation all around the family.
There are many parallels among such high-control groups. I hope that you and your family find recovery and hope in leaving this sister cult of the JWs.
 
noni1974
noni1974 8 years ago

Hi Sethmo WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I sent you a Private Message please read.
 
BabaYaga
BabaYaga 8 years ago

Hello and welcome welcome welcome Sethmo! A very very dear friend of mine (we call ourselves sisters from different parents) was raised a Mormon. She was a good Mormon girl for much longer than I was a good JW girl!!!
I think there are amazing similarities between our upbringing. I hope you enjoy it here.
Love,
Baba.
 
bluebell
bluebell 8 years ago

And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives.
That is so true, also true that you only have to change a bit of the jargon and it could be a JW writing just like you say.
I think there are discussion boards for x-LDS, have you seen any? There are a number of ones on this board who have never been JW so don't feel as if you can't post here because of that, most discussion is welcome here, we only gun down trolls :smile:
Welcome
 
DeusMauzzim
DeusMauzzim 8 years ago

Dear SethMo,

Very interesting post. I too posted on a ex-Mormon board once because I felt we had so much in common with you. There was a list of abbreviations there which said that "Morg" stood for the LDS Church in Mormon Apostate language, per analogy of "Borg". And the funny thing is, we JW Apostates use "Borg" for the Watchtower as well hehe.
and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives.
I can totally relate. No one higher TRUTH, and it is so liberating :smile:
Evolution and the Flood were my little cracks in the faith as well btw.
Enjoy the board!
- Deus Mauzzim
 
worldtraveller
worldtraveller 8 years ago

South Park did an excellent episode of the lampooning of the Mormons. If it is even remotely accurate, the faith is yet another big steaming pile of......... .
I watched a recent talk show . This fellow said that if you cannot see it, feel it, smell it,hear it, or taste it, "IT" does not exist.
Just don't do that to the "BIG STEAMING PILE".
 
GoingGoingGone
GoingGoingGone 8 years ago

Welcome, SethMo!
There are lots of parallels between ex-Mormons and exJWs. One of them is the problems that arise in a marriage when one spouse leaves the religion and the other still believes. My husband is still a JW, and I've left the religion. It's caused huge problems in our marriage, but thankfully we've ironed most of them out now. I hope your wife comes around, too...
GGG
 

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greetings fellow apostates!
by SethMo 8 years ago 49 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

Thanks for the replies! And thanks to TheSilence for reformatting my original post. I think I had Automatic Cr/Lf turned off. I'll try again, with that on.
Open mind: I tried watching that YouTube video, but it's been removed for some kind of violation.
I'll look up the "Combating Cult Mind Control" book. Thanks for the recommendation.
Some other things I've noticed that I think are kind of funny. As Mormon missionaries we always referred to JWs as "J dubs" as well. I suppose it's a rather obvious short form, but I always assumed we'd made that up. Too funny.
We sometimes used the term "the Truth" in the peculiar way some of you seem to use it, but a more common Mormon jargon term was "the Gospel", meaning not just the story of Jesus Christ, but more particularly the Mormon Church. You'd hear people say "I am so glad I was born in the Gospel". The Gospel means the good news about Jesus Christ's atonement, but in your average Mormon setting, it'll tend to you get used a lot as a synonym for the Mormon church.
Tyrone van Leyen said: "I don't like using the term apostate. That is a word the witnesses invented to make you feel evil and ungodly. We are simply people who disagree with their teachings and policies and beleive in independant thinking. That sounds so much more civil."
Yeah, I know what you mean, except one correction: Mormons actually invented the term apostate in order to make apostates feel evil and ungodly. :smile: Too funny, really, how so ingrained our focus on our particular religions becomes that we even think we invented the English language. In some settings now I'll throw it out there almost as a badge of honor, probably because I now recognize that renouncing one's false beliefs in an honest attempt at finding something closer to objective truth is nothing to be ashamed of, and on the contrary, something to stand up for.
Rebornagain said: "In my last posting I made the comment that there are numerous religions for the numerous varieties of people on this earth and nobody should criticize others for what they believe."
What's funny is that I once hypothesized that the reason there were so many different churches is because there are so many different kinds of people, and that Satan had created a counterfeit "truth" that would appeal to each and every person, in an attempt to keep them from finding the "real" truth, which was of course Mormonism.
Isn't it funny how it's all about the church, when you're in the church? I think JWs are similar in size to the Mormons in that maybe .5% or some of the world believes in it. Imagine the hubris of believing that literally thousands of religions and churches out there were created specifically to provide an attractive alternative for people, to keep them from Mormonism, or from the JWs. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Eclipse said: "Your story was very interesting to read! There is no difference between the feelings that mormons and JW's have. They have so many similarities, it's like the leaders went to the same ''brainwasher's teacher's college''. The same tactics are used, the only thing that varies is the information taught."
Here's the interesting thing. I'll tell it from the Mormon perspective, but I'm sure it's the exact same thing if you just replace Mormon with JW. A Mormon leader honestly believes it's true. Joseph Smith knew he was making it up as he went along, but his successors actually believed it, and they believe it to this day. What amounts to brainwashing techniques really are, from the perspective of the true believer, merely ways to reinforce the testimony of the Gospel (testimony of the church is more like it). The incessant admonition to be reading the scriptures daily, to pray constantly, to attend each and every meeting each and every Sunday, to serve in what Mormons term "callings", ie: job positions within the church, be it as leaders, teachers, etc. It's all drummed into our heads constantly, to "strengthen our testimonies".
Mormons even have a meeting once per month called "fast and testimony meeting" where the whole purpose is for people to stand up and proclaim their testimony of the church, the gospel, Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, the Book of Mormon, etc. It's as if without the constant repetition of such things, one would "lose" their testimony. And to a believing Mormon, there are few ideas as horrible as the prospect of "losing one's testimony". To lose your testimony is tantamount to being overcome and lead astray by Satan.
I've asked this on another board I participate on. What physicist has to constantly read and re-read Einsteins works or risk stopping believing in Relativity? The notion is absurd, and yet we take it for granted that without constant immersion in, and repetition of, our religious mantras, we'll somehow "lose the Spirit", "lose our Testimony", etc. I guess it's somewhat understandable when you realize that Mormons believe that 1/3 of God's spirit children (which you guys don't believe in) fell from God's presence and are in fact around us all the time as evil spirits, trying to tempt us and lead us astray. How is a testimony of The Truth supposed to survive constant badgering by invisible bogeymen?
I read a comment here in another thread by someone who mentioned their JW elders telling them that "the End" was almost at hand, and to hold on just a little longer. Kind of funny. Mormons no longer are into predicting when the Second Coming will occur, though Joseph Smith firmly believed, or at least taught as if he believed, that it would be during his lifetime. How many of us, both LDS and JW, thought that the Second Coming would occur during our lifetimes? Guess what? Our grandparents thought the same thing. Newsflash: ain't gonna happen.
Happy Harvester said: "It's really amazing how well denial operates, allowing us to accept scientific ideas while still refusing to reject irrational beliefs we hold dear."
On our exmo and critic boards we talk about compartmentalization. It's true there are brilliant people with massive IQs and PhDs in science and every other field who believe in the LDS church. What to do about the fact that the latest official teaching by the LDS church affirms the literal truth of the Noah's Ark story as a global catastrophic Flood, akin to the "baptism" of the Earth? What do you do if you're a PhD geologist teaching at a major university, and your church believes that 4000 years ago or so all of humanity was wiped out in a global, catastrophic flood, except one man and his family, and two of every kind of animal, onboard a ship that somehow contained them, and their provisions, for a year? There's not just a lack of evidence for a flood, but in fact there is strong evidence that directly contradicts the flood story, ie: it proves that it didn't happen. The ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica are good examples, where yearly snowfalls are recorded in layers of ice going back well over 100,000 years.
Well, if you're in that position, you know that the church is true, but you know the Flood didn't really happen, so you do all sorts of mental gymnastics and start filing away the "religious stuff" in one part of your brain, and "science stuff" in another part of your brain, and just act as if they don't conflict, and simply stop thinking about it. Or some Mormons will just throw their hands up and say "I don't know, but when I die God will show me how it all worked out, and then I'll know." And then we rationalize that hey, this isn't necessary to our salvation, so it's OK if the leaders are wrong about this - after all, they're only human. But when they're actually speaking as prophets, and not as men, then be sure it's the Word of God coming to us through them.
A pity that God has never seen a need to correct his Prophets on Earth in all the matters in which they're simply dead wrong, eh? Hey, who am I to second-guess God? Yeah, I've heard that before. In the end, nothing has to make sense, because God operates in mysterious ways, and who am I to tell God how he has to operate and what he has to reveal to us? Or so I'm told.
For me, it's always come down to the fact that I want to know what it is I believe, and I want to know why it is that I believe it, and I want to feel justified and confident that it's reasonable for me to believe it for those reasons. If it weren't for my commitment to these ideas, I'd still be right there, stuck in the mental flypaper of Mormonism.
 
GoingGoingGone
GoingGoingGone 8 years ago

I guess it's somewhat understandable when you realize that Mormons believe that 1/3 of God's spirit children (which you guys don't believe in) fell from God's presence and are in fact around us all the time as evil spirits, trying to tempt us and lead us astray. How is a testimony of The Truth supposed to survive constant badgering by invisible bogeymen?
Um, yeah, the JWs believe that too. Amazing how similar the beliefs are!
GGG
 
SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

I thought you guys don't believe in spirits? LDS believe that we all existed with God as spirits before we were born into physical bodies. LDS belief is that 1/3 of God's spirit children rejected his Plan of Salvation and were cast out, and have forever lost the opportunity to experience having a physical body, being resurrected, and returning to live with God in Heaven. My understanding of JW doctrine is that you guys don't believe we have a spirit, that when we die we cease to exist, and that the resurrection consists in Jehovah restoring the righteous people (the faithful Witnesses, I presume) from backup, ie: recreating them again.
The LDS belief is that these 1/3 of the spirits, who fell, are actually our spirit brothers and sisters, but they have rejected God, and hate him, and us, and are trying to drag us down and ruin our faith, so we won't return to God with the heavenly reward that we could have. These evil spirits are supposedly all around us, and that as we commit sins, think "bad thoughts", and such things, we give them a little more power of us, to blind us from the truth, lead us astray, etc.
 
LoverOfTruth
LoverOfTruth 8 years ago

And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives.
One thing I hated about the JW Religion is the separation of "Us" from the so called "Worldly People"
We're all the Same like you said, "just trying to figure things out"
I keep a plaque on top of my Computer with a Saying of Maya Angelou. "I'm Convinced I am a Child of God, That's Wonderful, Exhilarating, Liberating and Full of Promise!" This daily thought keeps my self esteem up and at the same time, keeps me humble realizing I'm only one member of a very, very large family of humans.
 
GoingGoingGone
GoingGoingGone 8 years ago

The LDS belief is that these 1/3 of the spirits, who fell, are actually our spirit brothers and sisters, but they have rejected God, and hate him, and us, and are trying to drag us down and ruin our faith, so we won't return to God with the heavenly reward that we could have.
Oh, ok, it is a little bit different then.
The JWs believe that the spirits who fell are angles who were with God in heaven when Satan rebelled, and when Satan was cast out of heaven (in 1914 ) those spirit angles were cast down to the vicinity of the earth with him. They are "demons" and they are trying to get us away from serving God.
GGG
 
SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

Of course, what's really funny is it doesn't really matter at all what specific, "technical" differences there are between JW beliefs and LDS beliefs. It's all made up.
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

Sethmo,
First of all the Mormon church did not invent the term “apostate” any more than the JW’s, Adventist, or Scientologist did. They all just use it in their programming process to indicate a class of ex-members who pose a threat to the particular brand of god product that they are trying to sell. The concept and term apostate is as old as the god product itself. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9044116/Julian
Cults and sects use terminology that they claim are exclusive to themselves so as to enforce their illusion of being “the one and only truth or right one”. Exclusivity is a programming tool used by the advertising industry almost as well as religions. It is use to sell a concept, product or brand the same way they both use endorsement advertising. Tell your ex-Mormon friends on the other boards you post on that continuing to believe the term “apostate” was invented by the Mormons is just another example of how deeply their programming continues to influence their lives after they leave. It takes years to get all the programming crap out of your being.
It’s similar to JW’s using the term “the truth” when referring to the religion they “just” left and the Scientologist using the term “fair game” when referring to hostile interaction with ex-Scientologist.
The Scientologist, Adventist, Mormons and JW’s are very similar in their programming process. Their ex-members are also very similar in the psychological adjustment process once they figure out it’s all bullshit and decide to leave.
Second of all, nice post.
Dave
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

I didn't know you guys invented that nasty "A" word. You certainly do have an inventive religion. I often wondered how the book of Mormon got written. I mean it's so out of this world. I think sometimes that the visions of Joseph Smith were acid trips or visitations from the spirit world. Kinda like taking dictation. The writers of the new world translation put a lot of effort into changing their bible as well and were quite prolific in their writings on aids to understanding the scriptures, but the book of Mormon is out of this world. Like it came from another planet.
This business, of the golden tablets that were supposedly witnessed by seven others is wild. I beleive to that there is a spot in New York to where they make a pilgramage as well, where these tablets were found in the side of a mountain. We make pilgrames to New York too, it's called Bethel. It's where slaves work for peanuts and think they are pleasing God.
The history of Mormonmism reads like a fairy tale from it's earliest beginnings. Leaving where they were from, to go to a place in the desert cuz of persecution and then making the dessert prosper is quite an accommplishment. It is also quite an accomplishment for the witnesses who don't encourage higher education and always dump on the rank and file, always kicking people out and shunning them.It is amazing, that they have not failed. They have in fact become quite prosperous as well. The only difference might be that the org. has become prosperous, rather than the people. But our religion was involved in legal shenanigans since its inception and have surrounded themselves with a team of legal beagles to fight their battles.
They have woven themselves into the fabric of society, while the Mormons have grouped themselves more as a State with a central homeland. I think this is why polygamy still exists in some sects that hold on to there beleifs within there own community.
Our way of doing things, is defended legaly within the country, and yours is more" like a country". I don't know how accurate I am. I'm just making some observations.
 
Tyrone van leyen
Tyrone van leyen 8 years ago

Sorry 007. I didn't realize we were writing on the same topic at the same time. I reckon you are correct about the origins of the words used to mainpulate people. If anyone has a profound grip on double talk and word play the witnesses take the cake for word usages. How else could it not be. Most of the bloody doctrine is probably poured over by a team of lawyers to assure they dupe the rank and file with there crafty wording. It allows them to escape when they need too, and lay pressure on people at the same time. So long as the rank and file accept the lot that has been given them, they will never see this. I think Mormon pressure tactics may differ but are still as effective as witnesses. They, as Seth pointed out no longer try to predict the end but they still have missionaries that preach. I think they might be able to do this becuse they are not a publishing co that has to push literature for their economic survival. It is more mandaory like military service a part of growing up in the community. Again Seth, I am not a Mormon so forgive me if I err in my observations.
 
yknot
yknot 8 years ago

Wow,
Thank you for sharing and you open hearted honesty. I always thought yall had shunning based on the few Mormons still left in my area. They are a tight group but I remember the way a friend of mine was afraid to let any "family or church family" find out she had a crush on a non-Mormon, she described something close to our reproofment and DF'ing.
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

No problem Tyrone.
The “stealth” programming of minds is the key to cult development for both the “born into’s” as well as the “conned into’s”. The average Mormon is as unaware of the programming process being used on them when they are in their religion, as the average JW is.
They are just two of the many modern day American religions using a stealth as well as a bait and switch approach to sucker their people in and along. They both fly under the “freedom of religion” radar screen set up by many countries so they actually get away with murder.
Thanks to idiots like Tom Cruise and his mindless worship of L. Ron Hubbard, people are starting to take notice of minority religions. Scientology’s use of celebrity endorsement advertising is coming back to bite them in the ass and the fallout will benefit all of us ex-cult members both in the LDS church and Watchtower printing company.
Fortunately modern technology and natural human curiosity is helping cut the stealth programming religions off at the knees.
Thank you Tom.
Take care,
Dave
 
SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

"First of all the Mormon church did not invent the term “apostate” any more than the JW’s, Adventist, or Scientologist did. They all just use it in their programming process to indicate a class of ex-members who pose a threat to the particular brand of god product that they are trying to sell. The concept and term apostate is as old as the god product itself. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9044116/Julian"
Yeah, I know we didn't invent it. That was tongue in cheek humor on my part. But, as you said, LDS sure act almost like they really did invent it.
What's funny is that to most LDS an apostate is a very scary thing, but ironically almost everyone the LDS missionaries convert is an apostate from whatever former beliefs they had. For some reason, this kind of apostasy doesn't seem to bother them. :wink:
 
seven006
seven006 8 years ago

Sethmo,
Sorry for the assumption. You haven’t posted before so I didn’t know your humor range. I was just going off my knowledge of cult programming and it’s residual effects on ex-members.
By the way. Do you still consider yourself a Mormon? You said “We” didn’t invent it”

Here’s a piece of art for you. It’s called programmed.
It fits both Mormons and JWs alike.
http://www.maloneillustration.com/programed.html

Take care,
Dave
 
lalliv01
lalliv01 8 years ago

Welcome Seth Mo.
I surely enjoyed reading your post and consequent replies, very interesting. I read a book by Paul Bailey titled For Time and All Eternity. It was
about an independent, strong willed Mormon girl who ended up in Utah and her life growing up as a Mormon who ended up marrying a "gentile"
U.S. soldier. The author wove the story of the Mormon faith, from it's begining, throughout the whole of the novel. As I read it, I couldn't help
but notice the strong similarities between JW's and Mormons when it came to control of the members and how it is accomplished. Also
the unstated fear of those in charge, you just don't challenge the GB, or for you, I guess it's The Quorem.
Once again, welcome.
 
Lady Liberty
Lady Liberty 8 years ago

Dear Seth,
WELCOME to the forum!!!! Thank you for sharing your story with us. I too have often remarked as to how simular the two faiths are in so many ways. Especially since leaving, I see the simularities even clearer. Please stick around, of course you are welcome here, as it will probably prove to be a place for healing for you.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 8 years ago

The funny thing is I used to feel so superior to Mormons. I just couldn't understand how they could believe all these wacko things that Joseph Smith taught. Of course my religion was sooo much better! The joke was on me, as the things I believed were just as stupid. If you are raised with a certain belief or you come to be converted to a certain belief, you only associate with those people who believe, and it is constantly reinforced through constant brainwashing sessions, you just don't question things. I have 3 Mormon familys on my cul-de-sac, and although they are very nice people, it creeps me out because the culture is so similar.
 
LoverOfTruth
LoverOfTruth 8 years ago

The funny thing is I used to feel so superior to Mormons.
When I was a JW, I felt Superior to everyone who wasn't a JW. I was a regular "Church Lady" so to speak.
 
zeroday
zeroday 8 years ago

I should introduce myself, since this is my first post. I'm actually not an ex-JW, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the Mormon church.
I understand competely I have read a great deal on the Mormon faith and how it mirrors the JW faith in many ways. I have read quite a bit of info from the Tanners I'm sure you have heard of them. Do you post on the CARM discussion board under LDS if not you should visit there is quite alot of LDS apostate gathering there challenging the faithful. It's funny how the loyal LDS and loyal JW's react in the same way when their "One and only true Church" is challenged...
 
penny2
penny2 8 years ago

Hi SethMo, welcome to JWD. I was very interested to read your posts.
I know a mormon family quite well - they think my parents must be very unintelligent to believe JW teachings. This mormon family thinks they are just so right and it should be so obvious to anyone who takes the time to investigate. Makes me smile but I try not to get into any religious discussions with them.
penny
 
tula
tula 8 years ago

sethMo, you have a PM
 

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Topic Summary
i should introduce myself, since this is my first post.
i'm actually not an ex-jw, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the mormon church.
i've long suspected that in terms of the organizational aspects of our two churches, how they hook you mentally, how they condition you, how they socialize you and make it very hard to leave, from an abstract level there's really not a dime's worth of difference.




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greetings fellow apostates!
by SethMo 8 years ago 49 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Quandry
Quandry 8 years ago

Welcome.
Around the same time, in the 1800's, many new forms of "religious enlightenment" emerged. Seventh Day Adventists, from which sprang the Witnesses, Mormons, and others.
It is interesting that another similarity between the two religions is, if I am not mistaken, God lives on some planet? I believe that CTRussell, the founder of the Witnesses, said that God resided somewhere in the Pliedes system. Of course, the average JDub of today has no idea of this teaching.
I watched a documentary on the history of LDS church on PBS recently. Very interesting. Seems many of the early men made themselves quite busy with women. What an angle! God wants me to lust after many young women!!
 
changeling
changeling 8 years ago

Welcome!
How interesting to have you here!
changeling
 
SnakesInTheTower
SnakesInTheTower 8 years ago

welcome sethmo....glad to have a different application of what we as dubs went through. I have never spoken with a mormon for long about their religion, but have been curious about it.
After a lifetime association with the dubs, in my mind now, there is no need for organized religion. It allows for mind control. Better for people with common values to get together and enjoy each other's company (ie, our Apostafests) with the ability to just accept each individual... to accept all the other individuals in our sphere of influence...and to do so without the shunning that we were taught as dubs? None of this us vs. them mentality. Thank goodness.
Very interesting first post. I missed it initially when I was in Toronto. A link in a newer thread brought me here...and now my post will bring it to the top (bttt) for others to enjoy.
Sure hope you stay around and share your insights on life with us...and just enjoy the company.
Snakes ()
 
ninja
ninja 8 years ago

hey sethmo.....our god can beat up your god.........he he....kidding mate....welcome to the board
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 8 years ago

How interesting. Thanx for posting. Stick around if u like.
Can you recommend one of the forums that cater to X-Mormons? I would like to take a look.
Jeff
 
fedorE
fedorE 8 years ago

Hi SethMo Im glad u posted here. Im wondering if I can ask ...do Mormons REALLY NOT drink coffee when no one is looking?...I have a friend who when Mormons come to the door he invites them in for coffee and keeps insisting to the great displeasure of these visitors as they are unable to give a detailed answer as to why they cant stay for coffee and they end up leaving .... Whats are the facts with regard to coffee? THanks.
 
freyd
freyd 8 years ago

".........the church is so obviously true, and lead by God, that the only way someone can lose that testimony is if they somehow are lead astray by Satan. Who wants to have anything to do with a guy who is under Satan's influence? Can we blame them? Yeah, from the outside, they're brainwashed fools, but from the inside, they're just protecting themselves from the wiles of the Devil."

Greeting Sethmo, You said a mouthful. There was also that line about absolute faith in J Smith being called, being the underpinning of the whole structure. The dubs have the same mythology about an alleged FDS, like the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz who, "has things well in hand," that one has to verbally acknowledge from time to time as a sort of litmus test of their loyalty to the organization. If one were to deny the Faithful and Discreet Slave, it would be like a kid denying Santa Claus. I was once, and for a very short time, one who brought into the technique of making a person one studies with repeat, "I know the Book of Mormon is true." And having become a jw years later I came to realize that Jehovah's name is on the last page. At any rate your story is interesting. Welcome to Christian freedom.
 
SethMo
SethMo 8 years ago

Howdy. Some questions were asked, so I'll try to get to them all in this reply.
As far as my membership status, I'm still a member on the records of the LDS church. I was baptised into it when I was 8, and haven't been excommunicated or voluntarily resigned. I probably will someday, but for now I've been content, due to social reasons involving my wife and family, to just go "inactive" and stop believing in it. I'm intellectually and spiritual an apostate, but technically still a member. My bishop actually knows my current belief status, but my impression is that he's willing to just leave the status quo as is so as not to force my hand and possible result in my wife and daughter both not going anymore.
If I were to go around spreading my apostate ideas with my local wardmembers (an LDS congregation or parish is called a "ward"), I would first be warned, and then be hauled in to a church disciplinary hearing and excommunicated for apostasy. As long as I remain unidentified and limit my public expressions of disbelief to the Internet, I think I'm safe. I don't think my bishop knows about my online apostate activity. I'm not going to volunteer that info though. I won't be hauled into a disciplinary action. If anything like that starts, I'll hand in a letter of resignation immediately.
As far as the coffee goes, you'll always, in any church, have some people who don't toe the line 100%, but in the Mormon church, amongst those who are considered "active" in the church, you'll find that by far the overwhelming majority of Mormons really don't drink coffee, tea, smoke, or drink alcohol. It's not unheard of for some LDS to fall off the wagon, as it were, in High School, and then repent and go serve their missions and be card-carrying members for the rest of their lives, but the standard is for none of these things to happen, and quite often they don't.
There are more ex-mormon forums and such than I know. I only participate in two Mormon-related forums. One is run by an ex-mo and one is run by a faithful Mormon. The mormon-run board is an apologetics site. You would at best get a very skewed view of what most Mormons actually believe from the apologetics site, because the more indefensible traditional Mormon beliefs experience a paring back of their claims when apologists get their hands on them. The ex-mo run site is www.mormondiscussions.com, and the mormon-run apologetics site is www.mormonapologetics.org.
I've actually turned into an atheist. I don't proclaim that there is definitely no God. I just believe that there is no good evidence supporting the existing of a God, there's no good reason why there being a God is necessary in the universe, and absent evidence that one exists, and absent any questions which cannot be answered except by invoking God, I conclude that there probably isn't one. Having lost my belief in Mormonism, which I thought offered "the Truth" about God, and a conduit for personal revelation from God to the individual, I regard the claims of pretty much everyone to having some kind of insight into the existing and nature of God to lack any credibility. I don't think anyone on Earth has any credibility about the God issue. Which makes sense, since I've come to believe that human beings almost certainly invented God.
God didn't make us in his own image. We evolved, and then created God in our image.
 
Sunspot
Sunspot 8 years ago

Hello Sethmo and welcome to JWD!
I enjoyed your posts thus far and look forward to seeing more from your corner.
hugs,
Annie
 
The Oracle
The Oracle 8 years ago

And Greetings to you Brother Sethmo!
I absolutely love the mormon perspective on things.
Do watch Big Love? And if so - what do you think of it? I haven't seen it myself, but I hear that it also reflects a lot of JW culture.
Once again - WELCOME!!
The Oracle
 

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Topic Summary
i should introduce myself, since this is my first post.
i'm actually not an ex-jw, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the mormon church.
i've long suspected that in terms of the organizational aspects of our two churches, how they hook you mentally, how they condition you, how they socialize you and make it very hard to leave, from an abstract level there's really not a dime's worth of difference.




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29-Nov-07 12:15 Shawn10538 said "Go home Mormon"
by SusanHere 8 years ago 15 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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SusanHere
SusanHere 8 years ago

29-Nov-07 12:15 Shawn10538 "Go home Mormon"
I found this lovely message in my inbox. You have problems, Shawn. I really don't care what they are, or how you came by them, but you have problems.
I also really don't care about how you feel regarding my presence and/or participation on this board. Everyone welcome means just that. If you don't care for my comments, don't read them.
I am now, and will continue to be, LDS now and forever. This is not something I feel I need to hide here or anywhere else. It is what I am. It is not all that I am, nor does it define the sum total of my life.
Being LDS is not, however, why I am on this board, not that a reason is needed, nor is justification needed for you or anyone else regarding my presence here.
I am the enemy of none on this board, though some have chosen to set themselves as my enemies through hostility and mockery of me and of my beliefs. That is their choice.
I defend those on here, LDS or not, who I feel are being unfairly attacked. If you don't like any of the above, please take your own advice, and
GO HOME.
As for me, I will continue to participate on this board.

SusanHere
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 8 years ago

Susan, please know not all feel you are unwelcomed here.
 
avishai
avishai 8 years ago

If someone told me that, i'd say "I am home!"
Understand that some here have been severely spirtually abused....and lash out at anything smacking of any religion.
I personally think that one mans religion is another man's belly laugh, but whatever, you are welcome here....
 
Marjorie
Marjorie 8 years ago

I personally think that one mans religion is another man's belly laugh
avishai, can I keep this one? I promise to credit you...
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 8 years ago

Are you an XJW Susan? I'm only asking because if you are then you would understand our perspective. Most of us here are and I know in my case my intention is to vigourously challenge religious beliefs.
 
JK666
JK666 8 years ago

SH,
Don't go home. You are welcome here.
Now OBVES maybe, if we could find out what planet he is from.
JK
 
brinjen
brinjen 8 years ago

SH, I guess some people don't notice the "everyone welcome" in the top left hand corner of their screen. Most of us do though.
Now OBVES maybe, if we could find out what planet he is from.
Is he even from this galaxy?
 
Marjorie
Marjorie 8 years ago

notice the "everyone welcome" in the top left hand corner
That's why I consider this a non-issue, SH.
 
frankiespeakin
frankiespeakin 8 years ago

Now Shawn you know that's not very nice If you want to score with Susan you gotta change your tactics dude. Or Susan will not let you forget it.
Welcome Susan no matter how far fetched your ideas about some prophet who live in some such and such a time.
 
cluless
cluless 8 years ago

H i Susan
I had the priverlidge of meeting to of the Greatest -Guys... both Morman ministries. Also I remember to Sisters as very non- judgemental and dedicated.
. But It was sad to recently have met to missionaries who were just so unenthusiastic of there asignment. (Certainly not interested in me as a person posing sincere questions)
As for the "Book of Morman" a wise man once said to me "Theres no such thing as a bad book only a badly read book" Someday I Hope to read the book of Morman.
 
blondie
blondie 8 years ago

You are welcome as long as you follow the guidelines, which you have. It is good to get several perspectives.
Love, Blondie
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 8 years ago

Most of us here are and I know in my case my intention is to vigourously challenge religious beliefs.
And challenge is a good thing. Telling you to go home simply because you embrace LDS isn't so nice.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Susan,
 As others have said, as a person follows the forum guidelines they are welcome here. People shouldn't be telling others to "go home".
 There have been members of this board that share their experince of being ex-mormon, drawing similarities from the JW experience. There are other mormons who come on here and say this is not the case. I for one think that this board is it's most powerful when there is open discussion.
 Many of us on this forum are used to open examination and the questioning of "self proclaimed authorities". The nature of this forum will make discussions and debates about groups like the LDS much more intense than you may find elsewhere. So I would hope that you understand that choosing to be in a forum like this and opening up about your religious beliefs wil inevitably bring upon some feisty debates. But nobody should be telling you to 'go home' just because they disagree.
 
beksbks
beksbks 8 years ago

I was under the impression, that we were not supposed to post PMs?
 
Sad emo
Sad emo 8 years ago

The original on board 'greeting' from Shawn to SusanHere, for the benefit of those who missed it:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/147676/2675881/post.ashx#2675881
Susan, you're welcome here in spite of that one poster - check through some of his other posts and you might get an idea what he's like - and then you'll be able to laugh off the insults he throws at you. I'm sure every forum has at least one of these posters!
Also, if you get more offensive PM's, don't put them on the board - you need to report them to a mod in a PM and they'll sort it out for you
 
jgnat
jgnat 8 years ago

Susan, in the future if you receive offensive PM's, notify a moderator, by PM.
 

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Understanding why people leave
by Qcmbr 11 years ago 41 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hi all, just thought I'd introduce myself before I make any other posts - I'm LDS through and through 'nuff said. Why am I here, well I've been reading the posts here for over a year and I initially enjoyed them in a sneaky rival faction way (i.e. one in the eye for Jw's yehaw..)but of late I've been redaing these posts and using them to critique my own approach to my faith. I'm on the side of trying to understand just why people can leave something they've literally given 100% to and I can see so many common stories between ex-JWs and ex-LDS. I guess what I'm trying to say is I appreciate that this site exists and most of the stuff here; I've begun to use in my own life (ie seeing the person as a person not just another statistic etc..) I've even used some principles espoused here in Sunday lessons (e.g. always question everything, find your own way to God, its OK to have your own viewpoint, if its true it stands on its own merits not because I said it etc etc..)Hopefully I'll be able to add something to conversations here (especially when you mention LDS stuff.)
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

Nice to have you here. So why did you become a Morman?
 
Country Girl
Country Girl 11 years ago



Welcome Qcumber:
It's with great happiness that we welcome you. Although there is a great difference in doctrines, and theosophy, between the religions of Mormon and JW's, you will ifnd that there is not a great difference in the TECHNIQUES for belief. Both religions, at least I think we can agree on this, are high control. People respond to people with high control doctrines because of very many reasons: 1) are not confident; 2) know no other way; and 3) are especially vulnerable.
We all know that the truth is the truth is the truth. It doesn't change. That's the major problem with all these high control religions: they have to control their converts through FEAR. Fear is a weak emotion. When you live with fear, you live with instability. With Christ, you live with the certainty of what is going to happen, and the certainty that you will be saved. Jehovah's Witnesses put too much emphasis on WORKS, when Jesus plainly tells us that it shall be not through works we are saved, but through FAITH.

Thanks for coming here. I hope we can answer all your questions.
CG
 
AlmostAtheist
AlmostAtheist 11 years ago



Welcome Qcumber (cool name! )
Having an LDS around will be great, I look forward to hearing your viewpoints!
Dave
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hiya GetBusyLiving, Why did I become a Mormon? I grew up in the faith - simple as that. I did the prayer to find out if the church is true - got my answer - never really looked back (though I wobbled several times - especially after I was a missionary.) I do want to avoid 'bearing testimony'- I'm fairly certain this isn't what this site is for - but thanks for asking anyhow.
 
ballistic
ballistic 11 years ago

Qcmbr, I'm curious to know... are people who leave your faith treated in the same way as us, i.e. cut off from friends and family. And are they investigated for apostacy, even if they just choose to leave for no apparent reason?
 
Poztate
Poztate 11 years ago



Hiya GetBusyLiving, Why did I become a Mormon? I grew up in the faith - simple as that. I did the prayer to find out if the church is true - got my answer - never really looked back (though I wobbled several times - especially after I was a missionary.) I do want to avoid 'bearing testimony'- I'm fairly certain this isn't what this site is for - but thanks for asking anyhow.
You might have a lot of explaining to do. I see that LDS is the same as JW"s in that they use a lot of language and expressions only understood by those"in the faith" You might have to explain unfamiliar terms to us and I am sure we will return the favour. Welcome to the board
 
zen nudist
zen nudist 11 years ago

.
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

Hey just so you know I'm not trying to criticize your religion or anything, I'm just curious is all. I have no idea what 'bearing testimony' means.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Are people cut off if they leave - I guess everyone's experience is different but there is nothing in our philosophy that has any form of shunning to it. The nearest we get to that is if someone is disfellowshiped they can't participate in the service (ie they cant give public talks etc) or if they get excommunicated (youve got to be fairly naughty for that:) it annuls their baptism but all in all no shunning. Now thats not to say it doesnt happen - to my shame when I was 18 one of my best friends , someone who I had relied upon for growing up stuff and a really great guy left the church and I cut him off. Not becuase I was told to, just because it hurt so much - I guess when you love your church and someone else stops feeling the same way it feels a little like they rejected you. I've grown up a bit since then but even now I still feel hurt and critically I havent reestablished contact (hmm I think maybe I should do something about that!). As a final point - the core of LDS faith is the family over and above all other commitments (except the personal relationship with God) so anyone in our faith who shuns anyone or cuts them off is just a plonka. Guilty as charged.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Yea sorry about the terminology - 'bearing testimony' - witnessing , preaching , cramming you belief down others throat etc... I'll try and avoid it - as regards the prayer bit all members are encouraged to find God themselves through prayer not via the church and when they find Him they have their answer. We tag alot of extra to it like asking God if the LDS faith is 'the one and only' etc.. which I'm sure reminds a lot of you about JW teachings about the primacy of the borg.
 
zen nudist
zen nudist 11 years ago

.
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

Okay, can you clear a few things up for me? I heard you guys have to do like secret handshakes and stuff at certain levels of your organization to be better received in heaven.. true? Also I was told that you all have to wear magical underware or something??
 
ballistic
ballistic 11 years ago



to my shame when I was 18 one of my best friends , someone who I had relied upon for growing up stuff and a really great guy left the church and I cut him off
Thing is, we all cut people off in life, all through our lives in one way or another. But I feel the JWs are unique in that the cutting off is so much part of the cult mindset, good friends can pass on the street after not seeing eachother for years, and they will stop and look at eachother in the eye.... and smile, knowing they "CANNOT" talk to eachother.
And I know there are ex-jw here who will say "sheesh - I talk to witnesses on purpose to embarass them" - but I'm talking about a real friend I would not want to embarass - we stopped in the street and had practically a 5 minute converstaion without opening our mouths, and then passed on.
A strange experience you cannot experience unless you are in that situation.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hiya Zen - your logic is flawless and I have to say right. That's why I always search out everything I can to hit against my faith - ie if its true it should always be true not just from a certain angle on a Sunday morning after three hours of sermons and two dead butt cheeks and so I wouldnt dream of arguing my viewpoint but the old stumbling point I always get to (especially in my wobbling days) was that gosh darn it I really got an answer. I'm a sceptic and its the most illogical thing in the world to me.
 
whyamihere
whyamihere 11 years ago



Welcome....Glad to have you here. You are among friends and understanding to all faiths not just our own.
Brooke
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Wow GetBusyLiving - right for my jugular:) - yea we have handshakes and underwear that represents our covenant. Why? - the best answer I can give is that its all symbolic of stuff in the bible - wearing our religion I guess. I don't wear a cassock (is that how you spell it?) or a dog collar but I do wear things that symbolise my promises to God(a bit like baptism but a whole lot more itchy) I guess the most difficult part about your question is that I promised not to talk about it! There are plenty of sites though on the net that tell all (though a trifle out of context I think:smile:
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

That's all cool.. I am honestly curious because I work with a morman dude and he never really talks about his beliefs all that much. Trust me its doesn't sound that strange.. I used to be a JW. hehe
 
zen nudist
zen nudist 11 years ago



I did the prayer to find out if the church is true - got my answer - never really looked back
ALTERNATIVE VIEW ON WHAT HAPPENS WITH YOUR PRAYER--
THEORY-- the subconscious is similar to a computer, it is running its own programs, but is subject to re-programming
if you tell it something without questioning it, it accepts that as a truth.
as I understand it the prayer thing goes something like this-- ask God if such and such is TRUE and then you will know...etc.
break that down into programming--- 1. in order to ask God if X is true, one must ASSUME God exists... so first program installed
God = true [even though, there is NO proof given, we just told our subconscious that God is true, simply by accepting that we can and should pray to God.]
2. in order to ask if X is true, we must not have any valid reason to deny X = true. so because we have not CHALLENGED X=True with anything valid, we are by virtue of asking IS X = true, in effect, telling our subconscious to program X=true.
3. putting it all together, we now ASK our own subconscious which we at the same time programmed, the question, is X = true, and since we also by virtue of asking in this fashion of a God we already assumed exists, our subconscious takes upon itself that role and answers in a way we will accept, yes X= true.
now of course this will NOT work on anything we KNOW, by some experience or other set of beliefs to be false... but there are many religious questions such as God, are you there? do you exist? is this your church? etc, which NO hard answer exists in this shared reality, which allow this sort of self-deceptive, programming and responding by our own subconscious in the role of the God we told it to be.
so this test of religous validity to me is just a very clever con game, perhaps dreamed up by accident or innocence.

 
pc
pc 11 years ago



Qcmbr Welcome!
I just finished reading "Under the Banner of Heaven", did you read it and what is your take on the information presented? I found it very similar to the Watchtower brainwashing.
 

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Understanding why people leave
by Qcmbr 11 years ago 41 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hi PC - never read it - I guess it is about LDS dodgy history, polygamy etc..?
 
ScoobySnax
ScoobySnax 11 years ago



Hi QCMBR
Interesting post you've made. My P.A is LDS at work, and we often have chats and "compare" our faiths/beliefs. I'm inactive as a JW (else I probably wouldn't be here!) but still hold on to alot of the teachings, she on the other hand is very devout. Not long ago she said to me how strange it was that we got along so well as she was always lead to believe that JWs were in some way "rivals" to Mormons (and vice-versa) and didn't like each other........I told her I'd never heard that one before. So it was interesting that you read this site as a sort of "one in the eye" for the JWs as you said.
Is that how you've always felt about the Witnesses?
Just interested to know.
Oh and welcome btw!
Scoob
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

Um, dude I think he's still a morman..
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Rivalry between the JWs and LDS .. almost feel that should be a different topic hehe. When I was a missionary we used to try and knock on the doors of streets just ahead of JWs just to get one over. If people thought we were JW when we talked on the doorstep we always made some smart alec comment like- 'Do we look that unhappy?' Yea - no love lost there. Silly really. I always had this dream that somehow all the JWs would see the light , joins 'us' and we'd all be one happy family. Of course once I got over myself I started to look at everyone as equal...still I can't quite get over the buzz I get when I duel on the doorstep with a JW or two (OK I know I shouldnt but I'm not perfect).
 
jaredg
jaredg 11 years ago

in that respect we are similar b/c i get a buzz from debating w/ JWs too....hehehehe
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago



:If people thought we were JW when we talked on the doorstep we always made some smart alec comment like- 'Do we look that unhappy?'
LMFAO!!! Ahh man thats too funny. Are you guys allowed to read any material critical of the mormans? JW's arent allowed to of their religion.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Are we allowed to read critical stuff? - of course the Church doesn't recommend it but it also says we have to be as educated as our circumstances and personal preferences dictate i.e get a degree or two, read everything you can (though with a guidance to search out knowledge from the best books the world has - read that any which way you want!) I certainly have been on every anti LDS site I can find, read all our past history from anti - pro sides and so on. The church does publish its own history but in general they don't hide much - (they do gloss over some though - the really juicy stuff:) When I was a missionary I read the red JW book and doodled on the picture with the lion, the boy and the beach ball (or is that one of my wierd dreams?) , I've read most of the Koran, the Tao Ching but I haven't yet read Harry potter and the Philosophers Stone - way too apostate:smile:
 
ScoobySnax
ScoobySnax 11 years ago



well "Q" You sound like someone I'd love to have a beer and a good chat with, thrash out some points! I'd give you a run for your money.
And Harry Potter...... you should try it.... films and the books.
Dumbledore Scoob
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

Is it true that you guys think that if you are really good here on Earth, when you die you get to rule over your own planet?
 
frenchbabyface
frenchbabyface 11 years ago

Well welcome !
 
1Peter318
1Peter318 11 years ago



Hi Q
I too am new here and would like you to answer an LDS question.
When you recite "As man is, God once was, As God is, man may become." or use the word
God in any context: What is your God the god of? If you are like most LDS then you hope
to be a god someday and have your own planet that will be populated with your children.
So when you are a god and the one you now call God is still a god, then how will your
domains be separated? T
  hank you in advance.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hiya Peter, I guess the best way to answer your question is to start off by saying I havent got a clue but here is my understanding - We are all part of a family and that family doesn't ever end. What is great here (hopefully our family but not always!),can last and we can continue to have children, what sucks we can leave behind. We become like God simply by gaining a resurrected body and learning what He knows. Some people don't want the responsibility so they don't have to have it. As for new worlds, I bagsy Mars.
 
clementine
clementine 11 years ago

welcome to you Qcmbr, and to Peter too!!!
 
JT
JT 11 years ago



If people thought we were JW when we talked on the doorstep we always made some smart alec comment like- 'Do we look that unhappy?'

######

great point and i agree most of the mormon who come to my home are happy and the jw are not, the reason in my view is simple

each day a moron gets up and goes house to house they know that in 354 more days i will NEVER HAVE TO DO THIS AGAIN- SO for you each day is a COUNT DOWN, TO NEVER KNOCKING ON DOORS AGAIN

now in the case of the jw - this is the major difference, each sat morning the jw knows that he will be doing this for as long as he lives and as result of not seeing any end in sight, the preaching work becomes a chore, boring and a burden-

just watch how jw drag from house to house, hardly a person carrying a message of such claimed importance- for one carrying a life and death message to all in the neighborhood- they certainly are in no rush

JUST WATCH THEM THE NEXT TIME
 
JT
JT 11 years ago



each day a moron

MY BAD

I MEANT MORMON
 
poppers
poppers 11 years ago

Hi Q, and welcome.
Last summer two female missionaries came to my house and we had a very pleasant 1 hour conversation, mostly on my part, as I tried to give a nondualistic explanation of life, the universe and everything (is that a subtle reference here for The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?, hehe). They were very open to it all, and I think it made them question their own firmly held beliefs, though probably for just a few minutes. At least they said they will have to think more about it, which to me was a positive sign. When they left I pointed out my neighbor's house two houses down, who are jw. I don't know if they went there or not, but was curious as to what kind of encounter it would have been if they did. Had a jw come to my door I am sure that they wouldn't have stayed to listen with the openness that these two young missionaries displayed.
You said, 'I guess when you love your church and someone else stops feeling the same way it feels a little like they rejected you.'
Yes, this is how identified we become with something outside ourselves. Those identifications give one a sense of 'self' that is comforting and when that sense of self is threatened we react, usually negatively. My question to people is to ask them to find out who and what they really - what are you before any identification with ideas and beliefs has been made? Who and what are you without anything to hang on to, to identify with? Discover directly for yourself what you are without any reliance on someone else's interpretation of god, the world, or self. When you discover for yourself what you really are then notice what happens to suffering and separation from 'god' and others.
 
Dawn
Dawn 11 years ago



Qcmbr:
Welcome - I appreciate your honesty in response to questions, as well as your stand not to preach too much. You seem like a very nice, well rounded, level headed, guy. I look forward to reading more of your posts.
 
Country Girl
Country Girl 11 years ago



Hey Q:
I am on the ex-mormon board, the XJW board, and the XAmish board. I've seen you over there. I have always loved God, and I have tried to find him all my life. I've always felt close to him. I have only felt one thing: the truth. The truth is the truth is the truth. If it changes, then it was never the truth. I hate to say it: but all these ridiculous religions are just that: RIDICULOUS. If you really stand back and look at them: The JWs, the Mormons, The Amish.. These religions came into being within the last 200 years, and their doctrines, and secret handshakes, and underwear, and isolation is totally silly. Think about it.
Jesus only said two things: Love him, and love your neighbor. That about covers it, right? Cuz if you love him, you won't do nothin bad... and if you love your neighbor as yourself,,, then ya won't do nothin bad either.
That is pretty profound if ya look at it. Just two simple things.. Just two laws.. no handshakes.. no underwear.. no nothing.. just two simple laws...
CG
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 11 years ago

No offence but a JW and a Morman in a theological debate is like a couple of one legged men in an ass kicking contest.
 
Dawn
Dawn 11 years ago



No offence but a JW and a Morman in a theological debate is like a couple of one legged men in an ass kicking contest.
I don't agree. It's just that they would both be basing their faith on different texts. The JW's have their own version of the bible (NWT), Mormons have their own version of "inspired texts" - same thing with Muslims who have their own version of "inspired text". Bottom line though - is that all three religions were started by a "prophet" of some sort - same thing with Bahali. So I think the debate would be very interesting to listen to. If nothing else, I think it would help an active JW to perhaps open their eyes to some of their own beliefs and the control system they are in.
 

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Topic Summary
hi all, just thought i'd introduce myself before i make any other posts - i'm lds through and through 'nuff said.
why am i here, well i've been reading the posts here for over a year and i initially enjoyed them in a sneaky rival faction way (i.e.
one in the eye for jw's yehaw..)but of late i've been redaing these posts and using them to critique my own approach to my faith.




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Understanding why people leave
by Qcmbr 11 years ago 41 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

I post on other boards? Since when? I normally avoid ex-Mormon forums simply because I have this overwhelming urge to put on my re-activation hat and try to solve all their queries plus I feel it personally that people left 'my' church and I come away feeling crap. As for the ex-Amish board that sounds fun but no I haven't been there. In the past I have posted on and off on various places but for the life of me I can't remember where and it must have been ages and at least one child ago... If someone has my nickname thats it!!!!! I don't care if they're ex lds or Amish where's my patent lawyer....
 
rwagoner
rwagoner 11 years ago



Hi Q and welcome !
I have to say that I've enjoyed your posts on this thread and look forward to more. I have a genuine respect for someone who can come on a board like this and stand up calmly, make their points clearly, respectfully and yet with a firm conviction and do it all with a healthy dose of good humor.
Welcome aboard !
RGW
(RandyW)
 

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Topic Summary
hi all, just thought i'd introduce myself before i make any other posts - i'm lds through and through 'nuff said.
why am i here, well i've been reading the posts here for over a year and i initially enjoyed them in a sneaky rival faction way (i.e.
one in the eye for jw's yehaw..)but of late i've been redaing these posts and using them to critique my own approach to my faith.




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What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
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Gorbatchov
2002 radio interview with J.R. Brown, spokesman of WTBTS (The God Show)
by Gorbatchov 2 months ago
Divergent
November 22 Study Article: God is a hypocrite & is NOT impartial!
by Divergent 4 months ago
Wonderment
John-1-1-Colossians-1-16-all-other-things - Part 2
by Wonderment 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago




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Mormon answer for Tula
by FormerMormon 8 years ago 13 Replies latest 8 years ago   watchtower child-abuse
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FormerMormon
FormerMormon 8 years ago

First let me apologize. User SusanHere accused me as being a poser and falsifying LDS doctrine. A simple search of here posts reveals that she is an active, apologetic MORmON. My apologies for having her on the board distorting what the LDS church believes. She admits she is LDS here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/36876/1.ashx

User Tula had the following question:

" A lot of the Mormon beliefs are not known by the lesser members of the Church. Only those in the highest positions are supposed to know all of the secrets of Joseph Smith and his founding of this religious sect. Smith made a lot of prophecies about the end of the world as we know it. He said that there would be a conflagration in the US and that the people worth saving would run to the mountains in Utah,Nev., Montanna, Wyoming and become one with the Mormon people. That would be what would save them from destruction. He prophesied that the next battle would be on our own shores, brother against brother as in the Civil War, State against State and City against City.
Smith also said that the Mormons would unite the world under one ruler. "
Is all of this a general belief?
I saw on news that a lot of Katrina victims who had been told they were being flown to Texas were instead diverted and flown to Utah. Do the Mormons see this as prophecy coming true that "people are flocking to Utah"? Other than the food banks they have always had, what are they doing as far as promoting propaganda about the end?
Thanks. Really curious and interested.
Tula.
There is a lot of LDS church history that has been sanitized for church consumption. A lot of wierd crap that went on in Joseph and Brighams day. The church has a large collection of historical documents, which they keep under lock and key. There have been problems about church historians who have access to this stuff becoming disaffected and losing their positions. 20 years ago or so, copies of part of William Clayton's (Joe's personal secretary) journal got out. Very damning stuff in there. The church membership, generally has no knowledge of such. Lesson manuals and web sites are scrubbed of evidences of additional wives, of alcohol and tobacco consumption by Joe. (See josephsmith.net)
Yes, JS made prophecies regarding the end of the world. I personally like the ones where he tells WW Phelps that he would not die before the second coming. Or how the rising generation would not pass before the second coming or how the temple in Missouri would be built in his generation (Are you getting all this SusanHere??)
The church used to gather centrally. First in Kirtland Ohio. Then when Joseph's illegal bank went belly up, he had to flee Ohio. The central gathering place then became Independence Missouri. The Mormons, and some of my ancestors, abused themselves there, manipulated the political process, were engaged in land speculations, telling people they would be the new owners and controllers of the whole area. Generally just pissed off the Missourians. The Missourians responded with some nasty violence of their own. The Mormons were driven out. JS attempted a military solution by organizing Zion's Camp... a paramiltary group. They were to reassert their rights to the land. (Missouri is where the garden of eden was, you know). The effort failed.
After being driven from Missouri, they settled in Nauvoo Illinois. Typically, the first saints at the new gathering place would gobble up the land to be resold at specualtive prices to newly arriving saints. This was after Joe and co. had large swaths for themselves already. The closer you were to Joe, the higher your property value. Joseph's Myth used lots adjoining his large lot as enticements for already married women to marry him "celestially". Anciently, Kings preferred married women, because they didn't need to hide their pregnancies, like they would a single girl. Joseph lied about his polygamous / polyandrous relationships. It was all kept very hidden and even denied at the pulpit. (Are you still getting this down, SusanHere? Do you need citations, names, references??) Counselors and apostles who disagreed were excommunicated and thus sent to hell over this. Their names and reputations disparaged for telling the truth. In the spring of 1844, Emma, Joseph's first wife, had enough of the polygamy. She put her foot down. Some 20+ women (wives) were kicked out of the Mansion House in Nauvoo. She then did something tactically brilliant. As President of the women's Relief Society, she began telling women that they would be approached by church leadership to become plural wives. She instructed the women to listen to what "the brethren" said at the pulpit, but not to listen to anything they said in private (like polygamy). This pissed off a very horny LDS leadership. The Relief Society was immediately disbanded to stop her efforts. This is why, there is a 22 year gap between Emma's leadership and the next Relief Society president, Eliza Snow. See http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,5009-1,00.html. Another interesting item on that page ... click on Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young biography. It says that Zina was widowed by her first husband. (Henry Jacobs). It's a lie. Zina is another fascinating story Morgs have no idea about. Zina Married Henry Jacobs and had a son. Before they wed, Joe had been propositioning her to be a plural wife. She refused. Several years later, he succeeded in convincing her to marry him-- "celestially", of course. He said he had been visited by an angel with a "flaming sword" who would kill Joseph if he didn't marry Zina. (This story and the promise of saving your whole family in the Celestial Kingdom by marrying Joe, were used repeatedly and is seen in the journals and letters of his many wives) So she was married to Henry and Joe at the same time. Many morg robots will say "Yes, but they didn't have sex". They are ignorant that many of these women kept journals and wrote letters.. and remained faithful to their dying day. THEY admitted having sex with both their husband and Joe. I don't know if they made it a threesome or not. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org has great biographies on these women. Some knew a certain child was joes. Others wondered who the father was.
Anyway, back to Zina and Joe. Things start coming unglued in 1844. William Law, Joesph's first counselor was excommunicated because he rejected polygamy. He published one edition of the Nauvoo Expositor. Read it. It was a very mild condemnation of Joe and his Polygamy. William Law states in it that he still thinks the Book of Mormon was true, but that Joseph needed to repent for this polygamy thing. The article and exposure of polygamy infuriated Joe. A Mormon mob was assembled and William Law's press was destroyed. Joe was arrested, sent to Carthage, MO (remember the missourians??) There he died in a mutual gunfight. Most morgs are taught that he went as a lamb to the slaughter, not knowing he had secreted and used firearms in the melee.
Thus began the rush to leadership. Morg leaders were falling over themselves saying they were the next leader. Joseph's brother Samuel (also one of the 12 apostles) was one of them. Within a month of Joe, Samuel, also died mysteriously. The last sMyth brother William (also an apostle) said he thought Samuel had been poisoned. I don't know if he said WHO he thought did it...just that he thought he had been poisoned. Brigham Young had William excommunicated. (I guess it depended on who hit the excommunication button first). Anyway, things were not going well in Nauvoo. The Saints then prepared to flee to the next gathering place, which would be Utah.
Before they left Nauvoo, they completed building the Nauvoo temple. The Church, in it's records, then begins referring to Zina, not as Zina Jacobs, but as Zina Smith. Brigham and the other apostles gobbled up the polygamous wife spoils of Joe. Most already married wives were also divided, or they left the church. In the case of Patty Bartlett Sessions, Brigham said she should stay with her original husband. (She was older). At some point, Zina or Brigham approached Zina's husband Henry and told him that they wanted her to be married to Brigham (in the temple). It is not known if Henry knew the full implications of this at the time. He agreed and actually witnessed his bride being married to Brigham. Zina was 8 months pregnant at the time (Feb 1846). It is speculated that they had told Henry that this new marriage would be like the one she had with Joe. Henry and Zina continued to live together after her "marriage" to Brigham. She gave birth and in the summer, Brigham called Henry on yet another far away mission. While on a mission, Zina moved in with Brigham. There was no divorce. Zina later became the third Relief Society president. Henry mourned her loss and tried to get her back all his days. He died a faithful member.
South Carolina and New Hampshire had already had unsuccessful secessionist movements. Slavery was a big issue and secessionist sentiment in South Carolina was brewing again. (In 2007, there is yet AGAIN, a secessionist movement in South Carolina). Joseph did correctly foresee secession in South Carolina. It was evident all over in the papers of the day. He also predicted a conflagration like the civil war. But again, North vs South wasn't a heated argument that developed overnight. It was evident in the papers. His "civil war" prophesy was supposed to include plagues and earthquakes and the complete dissolution of government (so we could go back to Missouri). Sorry SusanHere, it didn't happen. In all fairness, one prophcy of Joe's has come to pass. On March 10, 1844. HC 6:249-254, TJS p 341. Joseph Smith prophesied that the Lord would NOT come in any year in which a rainbow appears. --So far so good. He must be a prophet.
So the Saints gathered to Utah. They continued gathering to Utah. If I remember correctly some time in the mid 20th century, they started telling people to remain where they were and build zion there. It is widely held that when the crap hits the fan, stake centers will be a place of gathering and refuge.
Tula, I hope this answers your question and gives a little insight into the history of my cult.
 
FormerMormon
FormerMormon 8 years ago

oops, meant to post under the Friends forum. Jump there if you want to discuss.
 
Shawn10538
Shawn10538 8 years ago

I think there is more than one Mormon on this board. I've had pm's with a mormon. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire! As far as I'm concerned, Mormons have no business being on this forum. The reason I say this is that all of the things that make a cult a cult are present and found both in the JW religion and the Mormon religion. Mormons may be cult-lite according to some opinions, but the fact remains that it is a powerful mind control cult. Probably the largest cult to ever exist. I don't feel comfortable knowing there are cult members of any kind on this site. If you are Mormon, and a former JW, you have missed the point altogether of why JWs are false, evil and a cult. This makes you a cult supporter, and frankly, I don't want you here supporting ANY cult. This is a board for recovering cult members. I don't want to have to deal with cult members of any kind. I come here to escape the world of religious cults. It's bad enough that we have religious apologists here on this forum. But Mormons? GET THE FUCK OFF THIS FORUM!!! GO JOIN A PRO MORMON SITE!!! This forum should be safe from practicing cult members. Please leave us alone.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

Shut up twit
 
poppers
poppers 8 years ago

Geeze, Shawn - did you even read any of what FormerMormon has posted?
 
Sad emo
Sad emo 8 years ago

Shawn - which bit of EVERYONE WELCOME don't you understand?
 
undercover
undercover 8 years ago

Shut up twit
Who is this directed at? The former mormon that you believe is not on the up and up or the poster who called the mormon church a cult?

Either way, this reaction is an example of how members of any high control group respond to someone who criticizes their belief system.
Your ad hominem attack isn't going to prove anything in your favor. In fact, your knee jerk reaction sort of proves the point others make about being blinded by a cult.

Edited to add: Not that I condone Shawn's complete tirade about Mormons being allowed on the board. (I didn't catch that part on the first read). I think the tag line under the website name is "everyone welcome!".
But when someone challenges a particular belief system, one should be able to defend their beliefs instead of calling names. I also happened to see your post on Former Mormons thread where you cast doubts about his identity.
In both cases I get the feeling that you'd prefer both Shawn and Former to go away and not cast negative vibes out about your particular beliefs, which, in so many words is similar to what Shawn wants...for someone who he doesn't agree with to go away.
 
brinjen
brinjen 8 years ago

Shawn, I don't understand your response. If you read the post, FormerMormon is no longer a mormon. There is nothing in that post that supports them at all.
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

Two words:
R E A D I N G C O M P R E H E N S I O N
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Shawn10538 please take back your statements (or at least edit them). You have not taken the time to read anything FormerMormon has written.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

Undercover - I was responding in a fairly concise way to Shawn. I hope you agree that my response was not unwarranted considering the hate he just spewed. I've not EVER suggested that FM or Shawn should leave this board or post elsewhere nor am I afraid of anything they might say - however, as I have said time and time again - cr*p on my porch and don't be suprised when I rub your nose in it.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

..and while you mention it didn't you notice FM rather than simply answering Tula's question decided to do some more educational propaganda!? Bah.
 
undercover
undercover 8 years ago

I was responding in a fairly concise way to Shawn. I hope you agree that my response was not unwarranted considering the hate he just spewed.
I can understand up to a point. Shawn's post was over the top. But on a board that has so many debates on faith and beliefs, a reaction of name-calling doesn't endure oneself to the analytical crowd that appreciates debates based on facts and not emotion.
I've not EVER suggested that FM or Shawn should leave this board or post elsewhere nor am I afraid of anything they might say
No, you haven't. But I did sense, and I might be wrong, that you were taking slight offense at those that put Mormonism in a bad light. You have every right to defend it as well, but to me it came across as a knee jerk reaction and not one of well-thought out counterpoints. I may have misread your intent however.
however, as I have said time and time again - cr*p on my porch and don't be suprised when I rub your nose in it.
But whose porch are we on? Somehow a discussion board about JWs has become a feuding ground about Mormonism. Is speaking against any religion on an ex-JW board really crapping on your porch? I defend your position about being able to defend your religion, but don't be surprised when people lump it in with JWs when it comes to the words control and cult...especially on this board.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 8 years ago

There are lots of very legitimate concerns within the LDS faith (role of women, pressure to excel, feelings of guilt and critically lazy thinking to name a few.) The mormons aren't perfect but neither are most of them crazy nut jobs - in general they are the same as everyone else and I step in to defend what I know to be incorrect (I defend LDS because for better or worse that just happens to be my speciality..) but if you look through my posts I sometimes defend the JWs as a people as well when I feel that its getting a bit lopsided in a discussion.
I don't try and proselyte - I just find it interesting to respond when I feel I have something to add. It chaps my ars* though when 'people' mislead or are rude without due cause (OK I'm excusing myself here). I do appreciate that I'm an odd guest here but hey ho that adds to the fun.
 

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Things to understand about talking to a Jehovah's Witness...
by drew sagan 8 years ago 30 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Please note that everything I write here is within the context of discussions between two Witnesses. Conversations between a JW and non JW are different in a number of ways and so I will not be discussing them here.
 Many of us have tried to 'reason' with JW friends and family only to end up in frustration. This is no surprise being that JWs are instructed each week on how to use sophisticated techniques in their discussions. While they do not recognize that there is a method they are using to debate and discuss, they clearly do have one.
 Many of the methods use to discuss their religion contain common fallacies in argumentation. It is important to recognize that the JW has been instructed and taught that these fallacies are actually not fallacies at all, but instead are proper intellectual reasoning! Each week at the Kingdom Hall JWs will joke about the people they stumped with their 'good reasonings', they will give parts and talks about how to box people into a corner when debating them, and much more. They live in a world in which praises and rewards bad methods of reasoning. So while it is obvious to us their arguments are totally bogus, within the JW social environment they are completely 'sound' arguments.
What are some of the fallacies that JWs will typically use?
The Something Better fallacy:
 The most common of these I call the "something better" fallacy. In this false line of reasoning the JW will ignore any of the arguments you put forth because in his mind you cannot offer them 'something better' for him to believe. This reasoning comes out of a common teaching that JWs are given by the WTS, mainly that apostates can only 'tear down' the faith, but never offer anything better to believe. They are told this many times.
The Check-list fallacy
 In addition to their accusations that those who leave can't offer something better, JWs are routinely given check-lists which help them 'determine truth'. Typically such lists look something like this:
Only in the "true religion" you will find...
 - a rejection of the pagan trinity
 - a rejection of hellfire
 - a rejection of immortality of the soul
 - use of the divine name Jehovah
 - true Christian neutrality, and a loving brotherhood."
 - the only unified brotherhood on earth
 The above list is a minor sampling of the different things contained of the Watchtowers 'check-list' reasoning. Things they teach must be present in order for true religion to be present.
 This "check-list" system then becomes part of the reasoning tools used by JWs. They are taught that in order to find 'something better' it must meet all of the criteria as found in the checklists. It is important to note that the JW will honestly believe the checklist is coming from the Bible alone and not some human religious institution. The truth is that the checklists are coming from the Watchtower. The WTS is then able to teach its members to judge the world by a checklist that they know nobody else but themselves can 'pass'.
The 'Running Ahead' fallacy
 This fallacy basically falls into an argumentum ad hominem. It mainly consists of accusing anybody critical of the Society with 'running ahead' of the organization, thus having selfish interior motives for their disagreements. It is a common fallacy not exclusive to JWs. By accusing others of improper motives and desires the JW is able to move the discussion away from places he is not able to handle and make the discussion about peripheral subjects not related to the core discussion.
Understanding why these methods are fautly:
 No matter what the topic is (1914, 607, Blood, Disfellowshipping, ect.) the end result of a conversation critical of the Watchtower and its teachings will be listening to a JW using these methods to 'prove his point'. This is why actual discussions about particular topics can many times proves frustrating and fruitless. Many times those who are critical of the Society want to discuss things based on a proper view of reasoning and thinking, while the JW wants to use unfair methods in the discussion.
 So what exactly makes these reasonings bad?
 I'll first start with the something better fallacy.
 The biggest flaw with this reasonoing is what it does not account for. The primary assumption is that one should demand 'something better' before he leaves a religious system. Failure to provide 'something better' is interpreted as showing that that person is lost and therefore an unreliable source of information.
 Taking this reasoning outside the context of JWs, it is very easy to see why it is fautly. What the entire reasoning presupposes is that it is not possible to determine if a religion is true or false without have 'all' the answers needed to refute the system. This is just a totally crazy proposition. See what happens when we put this in an entirely differant context:
 Instead of talking about the Watchtower we will instead talk about the LDS Church (Mormons). Does a person need to figure out 'something better' in order to leave the LDS church? Is finding 'something better' completely necessary to help evaluate whether or not the claims made by the LDS church are true or not? The answer is obviously no. A person can verify the claims and teachings of that religion apart from figuring out what is 'better'. The system stands upon its own claims and not that of another system of beliefs. The LDS member does not have to know why every single interpretation and teaching is wrong to decide that Joseph Smith never recieved Golden tablets, that a lost tribe of jews traveled to America, or any other of the churches claims. They can be verified independently.
 Likewise, the Watchtower Society makes many different historical claims about itself that can easily be verified by looking in the older publications. By going back and seeing if what happened is what the WTS says happened we can see if they are giving us the truth about themselves or not. All sorts of claims are made regarding scientific data (earthquakes, famine ect.), in addition all sorts of things are said to have been going on in the organization itself during the 1918/19 divine appointment by God of the religion. These things can be independently verified to be true or false apart from finding 'something better'. Thus, to recognize the Wathcotwer is not who they claim to be can be verified on the basis of it's own claims about itself and the world around us and not against the backdrop of 'something better'.
 Any JW would agree that a person can leave a church like the LDS, recognize it as a false institution but not actually know what real truth is. When this is applied to their own group though, they will make the unfair demands that the person them tell them what the real 'truth' is.
 I would say that the check-list idea really is directly related to the something better method of reasoning. The two kind of go hand in hand. It works somewhat as a trap. The JW will first get you to offer up 'something better' and then once you do, he will tear it down based on all of the things in the 'check-list'. If you are then able to overcome any of his arguments in the check-list (and these are the discussions that end up lasting hours) the JW will eventually accuse you of "running ahead" and have selfish motives. At the end of it all you feel like you are running in circles, never making any progress with them.
How to use this understanding to your benefit
 Understanding where people "are" is a major requirement in knowing how to effectively help people.
 My suggestion is that instead of focusing on an actual argument about particular doctrines, historical facts, biblical interpretations and the like, one should rather focus on introducing proper methods of thinking to the person.
 As time went on I learned how to do this with my wife. Rather than try to tell her 'what to think', I focused on the fundamentals of 'how' to think.
 If you go right into trying to show a JW errors in the religion they will simply reinterpret whatever you show them. "That's not a lie, it's just a mistake!" is a very common response.
 Instead of trying to find all the right 'facts' needed to break through, do little things to help the person pick out what bad reasoning is. Eventually they will make the connection.
 One thing I liked to do was point out how bogus similar arguments appears in other religious institutions. I'd point out how flawed disfellowshipping is in the LDS or Mennonite church for instance. The same arguments are used by those groups to support the practice that JWs use, so when you show how in error they are you are indirectly criticizing the Watchtower. Open ended questions are great as well. Try to leave things open and let them connect the dots.
 Don't get me wrong, this can be very hard as well. Answers such as 'since we alone have Gods spirit we are better' can always put a damper on things. But remember what you are up against. Things are many times no where near as bad as we picture them to be.
 There is no 'official' way to talk with JWs. The above discussion only scratches the surface of what exactly is going on inside of the mind of a JW. Take time to learn about the people you wish to have meaningful conversations with. Understand that they have not only been mislead on what to think, but are also being taught the wrong ways on how to think.
 
Sirona
Sirona 8 years ago

Wow excellent post.
I agree with you completely that they will just say that the JWs have made mistakes and they'll alter their views when you tell them what is wrong with the religion.
How would you suggest helping them to think outside of the box without being too obvious?
Thanks
Sirona
 
Awakened07
Awakened07 8 years ago

Thanks. A nicely put and well thought out post. I think I'll put it in my Favorites.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

I think a great way to go about it is talking about how these bad methods of thinking are present in other groups. If you tie what these other groups do and say with JWs, make sure to keep it brief. What you really want is for them to recognize bad reasonings on their own. Trying to point them out can be very confrontational and that is something to be avoided imo.
 
JeffT
JeffT 8 years ago

Drew regarding the "check list"
Have you (or any of the rest of you) read "Apostles of Denial" by Edmund Gruss. I read it as part of my research when I was leaving. If you haven't read it, I recommend it. He points out that large chunks of Witness doctrine is built around what they don't believe, not what they do believe. I.E. we don't believe the trinity, we don't believe in hellfire. If those concepts didn't exist, they 'd have nothing to talk about, since that is how they define themselves. Their whole religion is built on a foundation of stuff they DO NOT believe. Odd way to establish your religion.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

JeffT
 Have not read the book but understand the concept quite well, i'll have to check it out.
 Ever since C.T. Russell the Watchtower has always been 'topic' based. Certain topics where chosen by Russell as points of discussion. His final conclusions on these subjects really seem to be at the 'core' of Watchtower teaching. Usually the conclusion is a rejection of a mainstream doctrine and it's subsequent replacement.
 In the Watchtower the rejection of a doctrine is usually seen as much more important that actual acceptance of the new doctrine. This is because it is much more advantageous for the Watchtower to make you believe that everybody else on this planet is corrupt rather than focus on all the details as to why their assumptions are correct.
 Remember that 'brighter light' can actually change what they do believe at any time. That is why they seek to define themselves by what they reject.
 The idea of discerning wheather or not the Watchtower has been chosen of God independently of the rejection and/or acceptance of doctrinal teachings is something a JW has a hard time comprehending. Because the methods used to convert a new member are based on the "check-list" system, a person entering the Watchtower is taught a distorted method of how to evaluate information from the very beginning.
 I really do think it is important to realize how from the very beginning potential converts are instructed in bad methods of reasoning. It's really key to understanding how people end up getting stuck in the Watchtower.
 
neverendingjourney
neverendingjourney 8 years ago

Dawg recently had a topic where he said that he had forgone any attempt to argue doctrine with the Witnesses. He made that comment in regards to a JW who came on the board a few days ago taking an anti-trinitarian approach and claiming that most apostates embrace the trinity doctrine once they leave. My response, which I feel applies in the context of your topic as well, was as follows:

It’s funny that you mention this because I spent a considerable part of the day thinking about this very thing. I think you have to keep the concepts that underlie the Jehovah’s Witness world view in mind when dealing with them. They have become convinced that: (1) the Bible is the inerrant word of God, (2) Armageddon is just around the corner, and that the (3) the only way to survive Armageddon is to be an active member in good standing with the Jehovah’s Witness religious organization (4) which is the only religious organization on the planet that has God’s blessing and (5) is the only channel that He’s using to communicate his will to mankind. Once they accept these basic premises, NOTHING you say will convince them to leave. You can’t argue logic because they are trained to disregard logic and obey the organization first. Remember those precious reminders about how Abraham obeyed Jehovah despite how illogical the command to kill his own son might have seemed to him?
In order to get people to accept those premises they begin by teaching them simple doctrines, such as the rejection of the traditional Christian concept of the trinity, which appears to be a slam dunk, at least when exclusively using their religious literature. Since the majority of those JWs not born in are recruited whey they are at emotional low points in their life and already searching for God or “the truth,” it only takes a few of these “slam dunk” doctrines to get them hooked. First they roll out the beliefs on the trinity, the immortal soul, paradise earth, and so on. Then the recruit becomes convinced that the witness must have the truth because these beliefs are clearly right and they are a rejection of mainstream Christianity. The “where else can we go” mentality begins to sink in, and then they just accept all of the other stuff that has little or no support (the faithful and discreet slave teaching, 1914, etc.) later once they have already become convinced that the witnesses have the truth. At this point, circular logic becomes firmly entrenched and logic will NEVER convince any witness that has reached this level to leave.
For instance, if the society says apostates are mean, evil, deceitful people, in the mind of a loyal JW they are. Why? Because the FDS says so. And the FDS was appointed by God. And God’s word, the Bible, is infallible. And if I want to survive Armageddon I must obey the FDS. And I must obey because the FDS says to, etc. Besides, where else will I go? Mainstream Christendom embraces all of these false doctrines that only the JWs reject. You get the point.
From my perspective, the only way to use logic to get a JW to leave the religion is to catch them when they have become disillusioned with the religion or are otherwise in a position where they are willing to begin to entertain the idea that maybe things are not truly as the FDS says they are. If you can start to put some chinks in the protective armor of their underlying premises, then you might be able to make logic work for you. But a JW will only allow anyone to put chinks in their armor if they are willing to let you do so, provided that they are a true, blue believer. Otherwise, the witness will dismiss what you say and repeat the “obey the slave” mantra in his mind.
Back to the original JW poster, although I didn’t read his post, I assume that he’s arguing about the trinity because that doctrine forms part of the most basic, core doctrines that a person learns and accepts when in the process of embracing JWism. If he’s a legitimate believer (and I always doubt how a true believer can bring themselves to post on JWD), he’s simply trying to bring us apostates back to square one and become JWs again. He’s expressing the most basic doctrines that are used to lead people down the path of embracing Jehovah’s Witness religious thought. Perhaps he thinks that if we can be reminded of how solid the JW’s anti-trinity teaching is, we’ll somehow go down the same road he went down when becoming a Witness. Or, perhaps, he’s just using this topic, which I thought was the easiest point to argue while out in service, in an attempt to win a debate against the dreaded apostates. Whatever the case may have been, I agree with your point overall. Arguing dogma with a Witness doesn’t work, and it doesn’t work because of the existence of those underlying, airtight premises that they accept, premises that only lead to circular reasoning and the dismissal of any arguments that go against the teachings of the FDS.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

neverendingjourney
 Thanks for posting those comments.
 I've been a supporter of not getting into doctrinal arguments with JWs for quite some time. They are really pointless. The main thrust of a JWs argumentation is getting you to say what you believe so he can tear it down. It is much better to function outside of that reasoning. If you do not discuss with the JW things he has been trained to tear down the conversation can go much better.
 Recognizing exactly what they do believe (like Dawg pointed out in the that first paragraph) and then realizing exactly how they intend to support those beliefs (what i've posted in this topic) can help a person avoid pointless debates about things unrelated to the main issue at hand, that being "has the Watchtower been chosen by God and is there any substantial proof?
 
startingover
startingover 8 years ago

Great stuff! Nothing I can add, just marking for further reference.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

glad you like it startingover
 
TD
TD 8 years ago

Excellent post, Drew
The JW "Something Better" retort is also sometimes called the "Burning House" argument. (i.e. A house is on fire, but the occupant refuses to leave unless you can provide him with a new house.)
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 8 years ago

My discussions with JW's find them using these exact one you describe:



The Something Better fallacy

I like your LDS analogy. I will use that. "Does a Mormon have to necessarily
find something better? No, we can demontrate that their teachings are wrong
even if they seem correct or the best.
"Any JW would agree that a person can leave a church like the LDS, recognize
it as a false institution but not actually know what real truth is."
The Check-list fallacy In addition to their accusations that those who leave can't offer something better, JWs are routinely given check-lists which help them 'determine truth'. Typically such lists look something like this:
Only in the "true religion" you will find...
- a rejection of the pagan trinity
- a rejection of hellfire
- a rejection of immortality of the soul
- use of the divine name Jehovah
- true Christian neutrality, and a loving brotherhood."
- the only unified brotherhood on earth
The JW's I know say this. Each pont could be tackled but they refuse to do it.
I usually try to tell them that they have not arrived at each of these points by their
own deep study separate from the WT literature. The WTS has told them that the
Boreans "checked" the things being taught them for accuracy, explaining that they
assumed it was true, just finding scriptures that can back the teachings in an
isolated setting. We have to assume the WTS is mistaken. The Boreans didn't
necessarily do as WTS said, and regardless, we need to examine each of these
points on our own.
The 'Running Ahead' fallacy
I don't even bother to try too hard on that one. If you mean, "thinking for myself instead
of waiting to be told what to think, deciding how to examine it without WT guidance, well
then, I am guilty.
 
darth frosty
darth frosty 8 years ago

I'm coming back.
 
FadingAway
FadingAway 8 years ago

I'm reading and rereading this Drew. Excellent information. Well done!
 
Open mind
Open mind 8 years ago

Great job Drew!
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this.
I especially like the clarity you brought to the whole "Where will I go to?" false dilemma.
Thanks again,
Open Mind
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

I agree that it's pointless to argue doctrine with a dub, for all the reasons stated above.
Because dubs are trained in this manner, they cannot imagine being wrong. They are convinced any argument not coming directly from the organization has its roots in Satan and must be in error! I had what I thought was a really good friend back in the day; apparently I am dead to him now. He was an educated, intelligent and well-balanced individual in most ways. But when we were by ourselves and we'd discuss any of the many things about dub doctrine that made no sense, he'd always say: "Follow the organization, no matter what." He had parked his thinking ability outside the door to the Kingdom Hall!
Consequently, when someone posts here that they are being bothered by elders wanting to know why they aren't active, I always suggest that they just ignore them. Nothing is more effective in dealing with elders than to view them as totally irrelevant to your life. They just cannot deal with that and, for the most part, will just write you off. They are completely immersed and when they judge that you are not, they either have to ask why and go there, or take the easier path and dismiss you from their minds. It's all about picking the low hanging fruit for them (and I know, I was one for 20 years or more).
 
Odrade
Odrade 8 years ago

How about the "those are just men" aka: "imperfect men make mistakes that will be corrected" fallacy? grr.
 
Robert222
Robert222 8 years ago

I enjoyed reading these posts, very helpful to me. I am dealing with this since leaving the cult and mind controlling religion. My sister is still totally self hypnotized, and gets a weekly dose of hynotism at the sales meetings at the KH. I do like the comments above, and will try to remember them, that those items about hell fire, so forth, is what you have been told by men, your human leaders, you did not learn it for yourself from the scriptures. Same with WT material, why can't you be taught from the bible? Why the need to corporate brochures and magazines?
The only time I can reach my sister is when I mention how are the JWs different from any other tax exempt corporation. I show her news articles of their real estate holdings and the estimated millions they make. That usually silences her for awhile until she goes back for more mind control sessions and gets back into the spirit of being chosen by god for the new system.
It just is an uphill battle with a JW because of the yrs and yrs of expert mind control they receive each day, whether at mtgs, door to door sales pitches, or at home with their meditation (self hypnosis). Very frustrating.
 
startingover
startingover 8 years ago

TD,
The "burning house" argument... excellent!
 
JeffT
JeffT 8 years ago

Odrade: figuring that one out was one of the things that pushed me over the edge. I realized that when they are discussing obedience to the org they are "spirit directed" "God's organization" the faithful slave and all that. It all boils down to "believe what we tell you to believe."
But if they are discussing getting caught doing something like predicting the end of the world in 1975, then they're just imperfect men. What really struck me is how quickly dubs can move back and forth between positions without noticing the conflict.
 

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Things to understand about talking to a Jehovah's Witness...
by drew sagan 8 years ago 30 Replies latest 2 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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5go
5go 8 years ago

The problem though is they better be doubting before you try or else whammo! He(she) tells the elders you are in doubt, and need more help than they can provide; and then you are in an interrogation, or a JC. The watchtower has been planning a counter to this for a while.
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 8 years ago

How about the "those are just men" aka: "imperfect men make mistakes that will be corrected" fallacy? grr.
That was an easy one for me, one thing that my grampa kept saying to me. I reminded him that imperfect men who are trying to figure out doctrine should at least admit that they aren't sure of what the "best answer" is. Furthermore, if they have the wrong answer to doctrine, why do they throw out and spiritually destroy the fellow slaves who think differently, who aren't trying to sway others? And if said person was thrown out but later found out to be in the right, do they apologize and immediately bring him back in the congregation? No, they do not. If they were just trying to figure out the answer for everyone else, they would have the humility to admit that they do not know the full answer on a certain doctrine. Instead, policy changes instantly, and anyone who doesn't toe the line is given the boot. This behavior is hardly befitting a "discreet" servant.
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Thanks for all the positive comments. I'm glad this has been helpful.
TD
 Thanks for pointing out the 'Burning House' analogy. It was on the tip of my tongue, but I just couldn't remember it when I was writing everything out.
willyloman
 You are so right when you say it is best for people not to talk with the Elders when they fade. It's exactly what I did. The only reason I eventually did was because charges had been brought against me and my wife. If that never happened then we would never have been bothered by them.
Robert222
 In your situation I would suggest you to do some of the things I wrote about at the end of the article. Instaed of focusing on facts and debates that focus on the Watchtower, discuss things with here that will help her develop the ability to see a bad argument when it comes her way. Empowering a person can like this can do a lot of good.
5go What you said is so true. That's why I say if you realize where the JW is you can indirectly do things to possibly help get the person past the bad methods of reasoning and skip in depth arguments about the Watchtower altogether. Talking about other religious groups that are similiar and share the same bogus methods of reasoning is very helpful.
SirNose586
 You said:
I reminded him that imperfect men who are trying to figure out doctrine should at least admit that they aren't sure of what the "best answer" is.
Excellent point! Said in one sentence and very well put. I'm going to store that one in my memory bank.
 
5go
5go 8 years ago

Talking about other religious groups that are similiar and share the same bogus methods of reasoning is very helpful.
Sorry my attempt at that ended in an interrogation. Becareful no matter what! If they are still plugged in they might consult the elders. Then the elders will ask" where did you here that?". Then the elders come looking for you, and fade over.
 
willyloman
willyloman 8 years ago

What really struck me is how quickly dubs can move back and forth between positions without noticing the conflict.
This is the classic definition of a dub-related condition often discussed on this forum: "cognitive dissonance."
 
drew sagan
drew sagan 8 years ago

Sorry my attempt at that ended in an interrogation. Becareful no matter what! If they are still plugged in they might consult the elders. Then the elders will ask" where did you here that?". Then the elders come looking for you, and fade over.
This is why one should always use discression when talking with fellow JWs. If you can get away from the JW world without having to discuss anything at all, then it is usually better that way. If one has to engage it at all (wife or husband is in, kids, parents, ect) it can be helpful.
 I also think that the relationships people share make a difference as well. Talking with your spouse is one thing, talking with your parents is another. Each situation is different. Some people you are around every day, others you are not.
 Discression is always needed because some JWs are barley hanging on while others are as solid as stone. It can be very difficult to tell.
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 years ago

marked
 
HeyThere
HeyThere 2 years ago

saving...
my convos are now beyond my husband amd with my study sisters. they have embraced my questions. they said hey wished more people had questions....we shall see.
i took the approach of telling them that i know longer want to book study, but have a list of topics that i want supported by the bible only... they agreed. quite happilly. we had quite the conversation today. one of them was very shocked by stuff I read from old wt. she is going to start her own research, she said.

thank you to this site and alll of th
e and contributers for helping me see my way clearer in this haze of dub i have find myself in...
 
losingit
losingit 2 years ago

Love this thread
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 2 years ago

Very good insight at the reasoning of the JW. It's about how they think, how they decide what is real and true. If that can be tackled, and only after that is tackled, then the doctrines will sort of out themselves. The doctrines cannot survive critical thinking.
Though it is incredibally frustrating when a JW posseses critical thinking skills, yet will completely turn it off when it comes to the WT. True deep indoctrination.
 
cultBgone
cultBgone 2 years ago

Great thread, saving to read again.
 

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Topic Summary
please note that everything i write here is within the context of discussions between two witnesses.
conversations between a jw and non jw are different in a number of ways and so i will not be discussing them here.
the 'running ahead' fallacy.




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