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JWsurvey.org articles and comments- Part 2
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Watchtower News Bulletin: Watchtower loses UK appeal – Charity Commission investigation can continue.
Posted on March 15, 2016
charity commissionThe Court of Appeal in the United Kingdom has struck down an attempt from Watchtower to try and kill an investigation into their handling of Child Abuse Accusations, according to a press release on the website of the UK Charity Commission dated March 15th.
As previously reported, The Charity Commission had begun an investigation after reports came to light of shocking incident in the New Moston Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, where survivors of child sexual abuse were forced to confront their abuser face to face in a closed off religious court. It was alleged that, far from this being a one-off incident by a rogue congregation, this in fact reflected the standard practice of all Jehovah’s Witness congregations across the UK, under guidelines handed down and enforced by their parent organisation, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society
Since both the New Moston congregation, and Watchtower itself in the UK are registered as charities, the Commission began an investigation with the following purpose, as described on the Commission’s Website:
The inquiry was opened to investigate how Watch Tower safeguards children and adults at risk and has been seeking access to the registered charity’s records since 2014.
It should have been simple; Watchtower and New Moston are UK Charities, and the Charity Commission is the body charged by the UK government with oversight of UK Charities. Yet Watchtower have been fighting tooth and claw in the UK legal system to have their records kept from the Commission and to have the investigation killed off.
These efforts have failed at every turn, and this latest defeat marks yet another step closer to a situation where Watchtower may be compelled to release potentially damaging documents about its handling of child abuse to an official UK investigation.
The ruling amounts to two key points:
◾The ruling agrees that the Commission was correct to begin the investigation.
◾However, the ruling states that the challenge to the Commission’s requests for documents should be held by a different court. This is due to a legal technicality.
What happens next? The Commission state:
Subject to any appeals, the next step in the litigation will be for the Administrative Court to consider whether Watch Tower has put forward arguable grounds to challenge the Production Order, and therefore whether the Production Order should be assessed by the Administrative Court at a full hearing. The commission continues to defend the issuing of the Order. Subject to any appeal by Watch Tower, its challenge to the opening of the commission’s inquiry is at an end.
In other words, it looks like Watchtower have failed to kill the investigation. The next battle is over the records, which raises a very important question: Why would a UK charity who claim they have nothing to hide be trying so hard to ensure the Charity Commission does not see documents which appear entirely relevant to the matter at hand?
Perhaps because the last time an investigation got their hands on such documents from Watchtower, the results were horrifying.
Or perhaps it is because they can no longer produce such documents, having illegally destroyed them in direct violation of legally binding orders sent out by a separate UK investigation into their handling of child abuse, this time from the high profile and very powerful Goddard Enquiry?
If this latter scenario is the case, the consequences could involve criminal charges.
Either way, it is clear that legal pressure on this issue appears to be mounting on Watchtower’s UK arm from multiple angles, with no let up in sight.
The Charity Commission encourages people who have been affected by safeguarding in congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses in England and Wales to make contact with the inquiry lead investigator Jonathan Sanders at jonathan.sanders@charitycommission.gsi.gov.uk.
Members of the public can contact the commission with any safeguarding or other concerns about charities via Complain about a charity.
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66 Responses to Watchtower News Bulletin: Watchtower loses UK appeal – Charity Commission investigation can continue.
Pj wilcox says:
March 15, 2016 at 4:17 pm
Thanks for the timely info
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 15, 2016 at 4:35 pm
Wow! I just hope that charges are laid against those in responsible positions. Here in OZ after the Royal Commission, we are still waiting to see if charges are to be brought. All the things that Geoff Jackson agreed to do while he was being questioned, he later sent a letter saying, “nope, can’t do those things”. Here is a link ( http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/636f01a5-50db-4b59-a35e-a24ae07fb0ad/case-study-29,-july-2015,-sydney.aspx) to the Royal Commission in Australia and you can scroll to the bottom and see his actual letter saying, sorry boys, no can do. Charges need to be brought against these ones who are breaking the law.
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Pat says:
March 16, 2016 at 9:59 pm
It’s very frustrating. I know the RC is a fact finding exercise but I’m not sure if State courts can enforce the recommendations of the RC. I hope they do… but as for women being included in the judicial process, that will never happen.
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Vinitha says:
March 17, 2016 at 5:17 pm
Disappointed that JWs are let off the hook by royal commission. Unless people walk out of it nothing is going to happen.
The organization has money so they will re-brand and reorganize themselves in anyway they want and if they want. They have heaps of money as real estate properties and investments in stock market.
If the GBs and the worker bees just want to wind-up and retire somewhere in Hawai or Fiji, they could always point to persecution on one true religion as the beginning of Armageddon and set the ball rolling for JWdumbs to see that end of the world has arrived.
Al they have to do is firstly organize their own covert operation to bad-mouth themselves in the internet, media and activism. Secondly, ask the blind followers to see it as an attack on true religion. The JWdumbs will be instructed to organize their own private bible studies secretly in their house, use the JW.ORG and preach covertly. The JDumbs will do it and wait for end of the world and in the mean time all the JW stakeholders will take the money and vanish. Later make a fresh start if they are bored with the vacation. Anyway, there are always DUMB people waiting to be scammed with faith.
They are a scam and a cult which makes them more dangerous.
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Chiafade says:
March 17, 2016 at 9:29 pm
I’ve said this EXACT same thing on another forum. Something to remember is that they ALREADY HAVE A PLAN to meet covertly. The circuit overseers have been taught in their circuit overseer schools how to essentially run their own mini JW.orgs. They started doing this a few years ago. A circuit overseer told us during his visit 2years ago (when I was an elder) “the slave wants the circuit overseers prepared to organize smaller groups for when the persecution breaks out”.
I have no doubt that it’s been put in place to allow the higher ups to VANISH when the chips are down. The true believers will stay but I also believe MANY will walk away. Unfortunately I agree that the organization will try to reincarnate itself even if it’s just changing their name to get away from the bad light shining on them currently.
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 18, 2016 at 3:46 pm
Vinitha……not sure why you said the JW have been let off the hook by the Royal Commission here in Australia. They were given 2 years to comply and told that the Commission would be checking up on them to see that they have complied or legal measures would be taken against them. Geoff Jackson told them he would take their suggestions into consideration and then pointedly sent them a letter saying he’d changed his mind and no, they would not consider making any changes. That actually puts them in a vicarious position. Now, the Australia branch is going up for sale and they have sold off nearly all their equipment and sent most of the men and boys who worked at Australia Bethel back to their home congregations, so that when the Royal Commission comes along and tell them to pay up for the compensation scheme them government has set up, they can say they have nothing here in Australia to pay with. Very clearly they are running with their tails between their legs, doing their best to avoid doing the right, moral and just thing. When the Royal Commission produces proof that they have deceived them and run out on them, then we expect there will be criminal charges brought. That part we shall wait and see. All the congregations have already been stripped of any excess money and all construction work has been called to a halt as well as all remodels put on hold. It’s truly and ugly time for the WT here in Australia.
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Vinitha says:
March 20, 2016 at 5:00 pm
Thank you AussieneedingComfort, for the update. That would be truly good if JWs were be tracked down with criminal charges even if they wipe of money trails in Australia through sale of assets and file bankruptcy. Let us wait and see what happens.
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Malachi says:
March 15, 2016 at 5:12 pm
Thanks for this article. It is gratifying to see the Watchtower organization come under the much deserved scrutiny of governmental authorities for the horrific abuses that have been concealed and for all intents and purposes endorsed through the barbaric way in which child abuse has been handled. No mercy should be extended, in keeping with the lack of mercy extended to the abuse victims while the abusers were mercifully slapped in the wrist. I would encourage everyone to write a note to Jonathan Sanders urging him to pursue this investigation aggressively and not to be distracted by the legal maneuvers that the Watchtower will inevitably try to use. Charitable organizations use their resources to help others, organizations that bring harm should have their charitable status unequivocally revoked. Any criminal charges that arise from this are well deserved by the Watchtower and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Well done, Covert!
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
March 15, 2016 at 5:58 pm
Well said Malachi.
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Wip it says:
March 15, 2016 at 5:19 pm
Just last weekend a young married mother took her own life, leaving behind 6 children & a Husband.This is an absolute shock to all of us, she was a victim of abuse by her own father, i was filled in during the case by one of the elders on the case, due to the woman not wanting to testify they could not prove the case, & as they kept the police out of it, the victims did not receive professional counselling, that may have made a difference.The father still attends meetings scott free, well this is blood guilt on so many levels
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Dee says:
March 15, 2016 at 5:22 pm
This is how it must feel for somebody who has been bullied from the beginning…to finally see their antagoniser get their a$$ soundly kicked, and justice be served. I just want to kiss these heroic Commissions. Please God…let it happen next in the US.
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Outandabout says:
March 15, 2016 at 5:42 pm
Good news. The guns need to keep firing. Thanks to the JW Survey team and other sites for doing just that. I’ve seen a comment posted somewhere where the Watchtower is likened to a huge battleship and would be difficult to take down. Well…..the Bismark was also a huge battleship and got taken down by persistent firing by much smaller ships once they were able to disable Bismarks rudder. I feel the Watchtowers rudder is under serious threat right now and the stalking must continue and when the battle is won we can all congratulate JW Survey and others on a job well done and remark that “never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few”
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Bad Penny says:
March 16, 2016 at 3:53 am
Like the analogy Outandabout –
Another kick in the ass for Watchtower! Let’s hope it makes the press and TV. How about a ‘Telly’ award for most uncharitable charity!
Of course, if it happens, JW.Org will say that the loss of charitable status is an attack from Satan and the masses will have to give more money to keep them afloat. What was that illustration they always used about painting the funnels on a sinking ship?
Let’s hope the torpedoes keep coming and this ‘Battleship’ will finally come to grief.
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
March 15, 2016 at 6:07 pm
They’re at it again. I recall Irwin Zalkins words in his interview with the JW Podcast team, s01 e01, that in 35 years as a trial lawyer he has never come across an organisation like Watchtower which failed to produce the documents ordered by court even after every appeal had been exhausted, and that included the Catholic Church! In the case of Jose Lopez of course it wasn’t just the documents but Gerrit Losch himself that outright refused, and they paid a lot of widows mites for that judgement.
Now they are paying lawyers more widows mites for what are clearly stalling tactics. They are basically looking at their bank balance and the amount of legal settlements in the pipeline mounting up against them and trying to delay them so the cash doesn’t run out before the cases do. No doubt they are praying their balls off for Armageddon to come soon!
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KAMIL Levi PYKA says:
March 15, 2016 at 8:22 pm
May I republish this article to my website?
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ScotWm says:
March 15, 2016 at 8:24 pm
After looking at the JW dot ORG website, you would never suspect that the Watchtower is engaged in a legal fight to maintain its tax exempt status. We can only hope that the Watchtower will lose its tax exempt status after all of its appeals have been denied.
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Robert67 says:
March 15, 2016 at 9:30 pm
Thank you God, may we live to see this Cult fully exposed to the world.
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Gary says:
March 16, 2016 at 12:18 am
The revealing of the man of lawlessness and the false parusia perhaps?
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Freedom says:
March 15, 2016 at 10:47 pm
For an organisation that prides itself as law obeying and always doing good in the sight of God and man with nothing to hide or fear – why are they willing to spend so much money and time on preventing the investigation from going ahead. What the time and money be better spent elsewhere, such as on preaching since the end is soooooooooooo close and why not leave it in God’s hand like the Governing Body tell everyone else to do?
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Chiafade says:
March 17, 2016 at 9:22 am
It shows that they don’t believe the BS they sell. The gb and the other TRUE higher ups are just trying to save face for as long as possible. They absolutely will not wait for God to do anything, why would they? They are gods unto themselves.
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Freedom says:
March 23, 2016 at 4:54 pm
The most disappointing part for me is I was once a vehement defender and supporter of the GB – what a waste of my precious times and resources
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Freedom says:
March 23, 2016 at 4:58 pm
The most disappointing and regretful part of it is I, along with all of you here on this blog were once a vehement defender and supporter of the GB
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Freedom says:
March 23, 2016 at 4:59 pm
Sorry everyone for doubling up, computer was slow, so I thought it didn’t go through.
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ruthlee says:
March 16, 2016 at 1:46 am
It might not be relevant but it brought to mind the script when David brought the Ark to Jerusalem he was so happy he skipped and capered about. Michal his wife was looking down and she despised him in her heart. Why I thought of this was because we are flawed like David but we rejoice when we see good . Which in this case is exposure of a rotten organised religion masquerading as pure and clean. Those far far higher up than us in their spirit directed tower look down on us and despise us. Their wicked reasoning will not get them very far and most probably a great fall from the tower.2 Sam 6v16 Zech 4v10 these may be days of small things but brick by brick this tower will fall .ruthlee
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dontknowwheretogo says:
March 16, 2016 at 1:56 am
“Why would a UK charity who claim they have nothing to hide be trying so hard to ensure the Charity Commission does not see documents which appear entirely relevant to the matter at hand?”
Great question…I asked a dub that question…the answer I got back was “Well Satan will be using this commission to unfairly attack Jehovah’s organisation thus cautious as serpents innocent as doves principle is applied”.
Oh my goodness.
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Cheryl says:
March 16, 2016 at 2:13 am
So..We are to follow guideline to not be abusive when we post here, but the Jehovah Witnesses can abuse children? Interesting. The other guideline when posting here is to be neutral about religious matters, and don’t impose your religious belief on another. Huh….The Jehovah Witnesses pioneer all over the world trying very hard to impose their firm religious beliefs on everyone, and every door saying they are doing it for Jehovah. Huh? That seems hipacrital. Why can’t we talk about religion? At least we aren’t trying to impose our religion at the door of all people.
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Gary says:
March 16, 2016 at 2:35 am
It is the moral conviction of what is right or wrong that unites this website regardless. Straw upon straw.
Let’s hope in this one avenue it reveals to a thinking JW as to their moral position.
Though not a biblical forum hopefully the principle of ‘what words are spoken in secret’ will find a fulfilment.
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Gary says:
March 16, 2016 at 2:52 am
Mischief by law Watchtower.
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James Broughton says:
March 16, 2016 at 5:20 am
I love this site because of its honesty not because I agree with everything posted. What unites us all, I think, is a desire to see people freed from spiritual slavery but we must ensure that we don’t use the same methods as the enslavers because of our own personal zeal. I do agree that theological, even evangelical, debate should be permitted bearing in mind my previous reservation.
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Kat says:
March 16, 2016 at 5:22 am
Ruthlee I agree I believe the GB do despise JW especially those claiming to be anointed and partaking.
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Caltanzee says:
March 16, 2016 at 8:52 am
It’s about time that the hideous shenanigans of this pompus corporation be brought out into the open so that they can face the dire consequences for their actions. #The lies#The deceit.# The misguided theology.# The ruination of lives.#The corruption in paedophiles and the willful coverup thereof.#The delusional destruction of families through shunning, and the list goes on and on.#Now it’s time to make them dance to the sour notes they composed and created.
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bOB says:
March 16, 2016 at 11:04 am
Quick question for Cedars: I read your life story, and even though you were supposedly an active member of the congregation, I do not see how you can just go from reading the bible dailyA and having a good relationship with God to just ending that and not having any relationship with God whatsoever, even though you believe the teachings of the Watchtower are inaccurate. Thoughts?
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Wanderer says:
March 16, 2016 at 1:07 pm
Typical groupthink view, or dare I say it cult view. Because something doesn’t work for me/us and what we are taught to think, or if someone has a different view on a topic then they must be wrong and we can group together and deride them.
People are all individuals, all different, unless you are being controlled and being taught what to think and how to act by a high control group. Just because Cedars has a different view to you, it doesn’t make your opinion automatically correct.
You say “supposedly” and “I do not see how”, maybe turn your thinking around to reason how this could of happened. Maybe try to imagine what Jesus would say to a person in a similar situation, being judgemental is not being Christ like.
What would you suggest someone does if they realise the truth is not the truth and don’t believe the Watchtower Society? Join another organised religion, get disfellowshipped and never see their family or friends again? As someone that has travelled that road myself it is a very hard situation to be in.
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Alexandria R says:
March 18, 2016 at 8:09 pm
Wanderer, thank you. What you said is very helpful for me. You wrote that cult mentality means expecting everyone to share the same beliefs and thinking they must be wrong and deride them and get others involved to agree with own view. What you said helped me a lot. Some members in my family are going through that. My brother and sister are both in good standing and strong in the truth but they are shunning each other because they have opposite opinions on issues the society has written about. My brother and sister tried to force each other to give in and they haven’t talked to each other sense 2010. They disagree over ‘forgivefulness’ because my niece committed audultery. They hate each other. It is sad. I keep my distance from the both of them because they are so hateful and judgement and blab to anyone who will listen to get as many people as possible to agree with them. They gossip about each other. They feel they have to be right. They drive me nuts.
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dee2 says:
March 16, 2016 at 2:36 pm
If I may add my personal experience:
On researching the truth about the JW’s history and their false teachings/doctrines this was the beginning of a journey to decide what my beliefs post-JW would be; I was turned off by organized religion after my JW experience. This led me to start investigating the origins of Christianity and the reasons for writing the Bible given:
– that statistically, you have a 1 in 40,000 chance of finding the “True” religious denomination in Christianity alone. (That’s approximately how many different “true” interpretations have given rise to all those denominations).
– the inescapable fact that every Christian is looking at the very same data (Bible) and coming to separate conclusions – a signal to my intellect that something just possibly might be wrong with the data itself.
There is an ancient book compiled by a Greek fellow named Euclid back in the 4th-century B.C.E. The Encylopedia states: “His Elements is one of the most influential works in the history of mathematics, serving as the main textbook for teaching mathematics (especially geometry) from the time of its publication until the late 19th or early 20th century.”
Here is the difference between this man-made book and the Bible. Every person from every society on Earth arrived at exactly the same conclusions about Euclid’s theorems and axioms without contradictory opinions arising in 20 centuries.
I began to see why the Bible is problematic and Euclid’s Elements are not. My investigation led me to the conclusion that the Bible is not the inspired, inerrant word of God as I was told and led to believe. I also came to the realization that Christianity is just a tradition. My journey has taken me to the point where I have now adopted a deist worldview – deism provides a framework within which a Supreme Being might be understood to have created the universe and then left it to its own devices; this Being set up the universe as one would wind up a clock and let it run according to various laws, including the laws of probability & statistics. I therefore do not believe this Supreme Being to be interventionist, all-knowing and judging.
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Winston Smith says:
March 16, 2016 at 7:35 pm
@dee2
Your reasoning in this regard parallels my own. Ever read The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine? It is an early American treatise on Deism.
WS
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dee2 says:
March 16, 2016 at 8:36 pm
******I should add that what some Christian denominations, including the JWs, have done is to first develop complex, convoluted doctrines and then thereafter try to make the Bible fit their doctrines. These doctrines are not supported by simple, clear-cut, plain, direct statements in the Bible and so intricate explanations, complex combinations of Bible texts and, in some cases, what amounts to mental gymnastics, are required in an attempt to support these doctrines. However, despite this flawed approach of some denominations, the Bible is nevertheless a problematic book.
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bob says:
March 17, 2016 at 2:17 pm
Interesting points indeed, but no doubt you’ve read Revelation 12:9 which shows why their is so much confusion among religion today. Religious leaders with inaccurate teachings are motivated by money, they simply derive from the bible whatever will be popular with the churchgoers, so that they will have high attendance and in turn high revenues. However, there are some religions out there that truly strive to follow the bible as accurately as possible, and are not motivated by money or other factors. this to me shows why there is so little agreement, and it’s really not enough to simply not believe in the bible’s inspiration. What about all the practical life lessons? What about all the prophecies that came through?
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Winston Smith says:
March 17, 2016 at 5:23 pm
I assume you mean “what about all the prophecies that came” TRUE. Often, the fulfillment of scriptural prophecy is only recorded in other scriptures. By what external evidence can prophecies be proven? And how do we know so-called biblical prophecies were not written after the fact? As with many of the JW interpretations, the prophecies only came true if you look at things from a very skewed point of view. And what about other so-called prophets outside the Bible? Nostradamus comes to mind. People say his prophecies came true, again you have to look at things a certain way for it to work, but does that grant him divine backing?
I think that people can convince themselves anything they want to be true in order to feel a sense of control over their lives.
WS
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Chiafade says:
March 17, 2016 at 9:55 pm
Very well put Winston. The way I see it is, if it was uttered by Watchtower, prophecy or otherwise, I would bet against it every time.
dee2 says:
March 18, 2016 at 5:37 am
My favourite failed prophecy in the Bible:
Mark 14:53-62:
“And they led Jesus away to the high priest; and with him were assembled all the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes…………. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. AND ***YOU*** WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER, AND COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.” (emphasis mine).
The high priest, chief priests, elders and scribes did not see this happen as Jesus said they would.
dee2 says:
March 18, 2016 at 6:47 am
More evidence that the Bible is problematic:
Christian denominations cannot agree on what constitutes inspired Holy Scripture. Is it the Bible of Roman Catholics, Protestants or Orthodox Christians? Roman Catholics claim that the Bible contains 73 canonical (authentic) books, while most Protestants accept only 66 because they reject the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books, and Orthodox Christians accept 76 books. Each denomination claims its Bible is the true word of God. Which one is to be believed?
Winston Smith says:
March 18, 2016 at 8:26 am
What this level of uncertainty reveals is that there is no such thing as “proof.” We are free to pick and choose what we want to believe and that is fine. This right is protected in most democratic lands under the statement of freedom of religion. But since it is only based on faith, not hard facts, don’t judge me if I choose to believe different from you and I’ll try not to judge you either.
Most religions say that all the other ones are wrong and they are right. The JWs take it to the extreme and say that all other religions are evil, deserve to be destroyed by God, and should be hated and shunned by the JW members.
WS
Outandabout says:
March 18, 2016 at 6:54 pm
What about the prophecies of Nostradamus? Lets all follow Nostradamus. He seems an ‘onto it’ fellow. Anybody can make a vague prophecy and make it fit anywhere they’re willing to shoehorn the thing.
Prophecies and miracles just don’t wash with me. I prefer hard scientific evidence and proper reasoning. Scripture is so vague as to be meaningless. You could find scripture that say’s ‘look before you leap’ and then another to say ‘he who hesitates is lost’. Just choose the one that suits your desired outcome. Didn’t Russell do just that when he used scripture to shout “Jesus’ is coming” on such and such a date. When Jesus didn’t materialise it was “hang on, I’ve consulted the scriptures again and yes, he has indeed arrived but he’s invisible”. W.T.F.!! There you have Watchtowers first false prophecy followed by the first lie (New Light) to cover it up. You have to wonder at the mentality of people.
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dee2 says:
March 19, 2016 at 8:00 am
………Why don’t you believe me? I’m not lying. Jesus was really and truly on his way from the Pleiades star cluster……..he just got stuck in the earth’s upper atmosphere and has been stuck there since 1914 as we haven’t been able to fix the mechanical problems with his spaceship……..lol.
Freed Mason says:
March 17, 2016 at 3:15 am
Its called freedom of choice and mind bOB. Have a great day friend
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Sharon Christensen says:
March 16, 2016 at 11:23 am
Thanx again! Ruthlee…u made me cry with your illustration! It is relevant …in it I seen soo many Dear ones along the way…in my minz eye, incldng my Dear Family…honest hearted good people, feelng or made to feel by ..the ones on hi that they are unworthy…and once all goez down…we shall for sure act like …David! For one, I seen my Dear father …old woolen pants and socks…holes and all…who tried to show them when they were doing wrong and treating young ones in the cong badly…when the elders themselves were engaged in disgusting sex practices etc….they laughed at him and pulled his privledges away…and treated my bros. the same…where as if you rubbed up against them…and gave them a feel..Like my cousins wife did, even though she went for a roll in the hey…nothing was done to her…still remains in good standing…pioneer and all…as for burning records …mine were…and for facing the one who abused you…Been there…same with my friends….it is not an easy thing to have to tell all….over and over and over…and still be looked at and treated as though you desrved all…I never felt like taking my life…I could not do that to my family…but my friends did over and over again…one friend was alittle girl, her parents invited to Canadian Bethel while things being built…she was abused….when parents told of…bros guilty mysteriously disappeared…and child told…not say more…My other friend and her sister were used by their step father, who latter was found out not to be their real father, over and over for his sexual satisfaction and they were forced to watch their mother and him have sex…How disgusting! When all this was brought to elders attention…nothing done and he was still allowed to say the prayer, cuz he denied all…she was told to forgive and forget…go figure….it is not something one can do! A truly disgusting religion…may Jehovah use Ceasar to render to this apostate grp all that they deserve! How does it go….apostasy must come first…and the man of lawlessness gets revealed? Who is the” apostate”one here? and living near a river….yes drips of water can erode even rock….let’s keep…DRIPPING!!!! :))
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Sharon Christensen says:
March 16, 2016 at 12:05 pm
DUH! I always think of something else after I have already taken up too much space…but just curious…anybody else have these symthoms??? As a result of my life in the JWorgy…have a whole host of physical health problems related to yrs of living with stress…sexually abuse as a child, battered wives syndrome, and get this…prisoner of war …syndrome..Hummm anyone else feel as though been “prisoners of war”…???? Just wondering…Cuz therapist/cousellors are concerned as to health of all in the JW.org…..But if WT has shares in Monsanto/Pharacuticals…no wonder they drive their members to need antidepressants, oxycontin…and all kinds of other meds..I refuse…going herbal…they say sage and thyme teas work…Burning sage helps to expel…”bad spirits”…and vibes…:)). hence been drinking a lot of teas…and smoking myself out and up alot…cough, choke…but poplar/spruce smoke…does not work for that it seems! :))). Plus I noticed…alot of Witnesses cope by using…”liquid”… spirits…go figure…and if you combine works better than “head”in sand!
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ruthlee says:
March 17, 2016 at 3:34 am
Dearest Sharon. First and foremost You are not and never were or ever will be to blame for the damage done to you in childhood. How I describe it is something gets broken in the brain and realistically it never really gets fixed. I have come to accept that and every day move on one step at a time. Therapy helps so does distraction. Prayer also for the religious and yes you can have a good ol rant at god for disappointing you and letting you be wolf fodder. I will have traumatic memories till the day I reach oblivion and that is one cool realisation and a big grown up thing to accept. There is no compensation for child rape . that is why it is so successful in damaging the next generation ad infinitum. I do not have magic pills answers or a reason why these things happen and I do think we are not that special in gods eyes anyone of us. It is a case of pick your damage. famine , war, syphilis, aids, sodomy. It is all the same no one is special but all left with survivor guilt if they live long enough to mature. I hope my outlook is not too bleak for you but there is no magic potion . For us there is communication with kindred spirits so a small chance of partial recovery. blessings ruthlee
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Average Joe says:
March 16, 2016 at 2:08 pm
Any chance of getting the link to the official statement on their website please? I can only find the one on the UK Charity Website where the WTS challenged them.
Thanks.
PS. For Ruthlee, how about getting yourself a Mrs Doyle avatar? Ah go on now, ye will won’t you so!
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Chris says:
March 16, 2016 at 6:58 pm
I just typed “UK charity commission” into Google, clicked on the UK government website link…
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/court-of-appeal-gives-judgment-in-court-case-by-jehovahs-witness-charity
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Chris says:
March 16, 2016 at 7:07 pm
This is fantastic news :)!
I hope we’ll see plenty being reported in the media, worldwide… And hopefully more governing body members being questioned on camera… I don’t know if that’s how this inquiry will run, like the ARC.. But I hope so
Either way, they’re going down down down
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Average Joe says:
March 17, 2016 at 1:13 am
Fantastic Chris, thanks. Contrary to popular opinion, Google is NOT always my friend!
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Gary says:
March 16, 2016 at 10:34 pm
There is no education in totalitarianism.
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Istvan says:
March 17, 2016 at 3:00 am
the JWs leaders are not that worried. Jehovah’s help will come to them in the end…through a US State Department’s order….and a Nato discipline over UK’s investigation authorities. In fact the WBTS may well have a wider chance to overcome the dispute following the ruling stating the Production Order should be assessed by the Administrative Court at a full hearing. There they could have some political point. No incident the Charity Commission complained about it.
Istvan
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 17, 2016 at 4:27 am
Notice their argument? Numbers 3 and 6 are incredible! I sincerely hope they are required to produce the requested documents.
In relation to the inquiry issue, Watch Tower (WT) argued that the proposed inquiry was unlawful because:
(1) it interfered or proposed to interfere with WT’s rights of freedom of religion and of association under Articles 9 and 11 ECHR and was discriminatory, contrary to Article 14, because, by starting an inquiry with a view to changing Jehovah’s Witnesses’ religious practices, the Commission was acting disproportionately by misconstruing or misapplying s16.4 of the Charities Act 2011;
(2) the scope of the inquiry was so vague and undefined as not to be “prescribed by law” and/or in breach of the Commission’s obligation under s 16.4 of the 2011 Act to act transparently in performing its functions;
(3) the proposal that the appellants’ Safeguarding Policy include a condition that any elder running a Bible class had to be cleared through an appropriate checking system similar to the Disclosure and Barring Service was unlawful and/or impossible for the appellants to implement;
(4) the Commission had erred in law in its approach to the duties of trustees by misconstruing or misapplying the duties owed by the appellants under the Companies Act 2006;
(5) the Commission had breached its duty to act fairly by failing to provide proper details of the allegations that it was making and thereby giving the appellants a fair opportunity to meet the case against them; and
(6) the decision to initiate the inquiry was irrational [6].
Here is the actual new article: http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2016/03/15/jehovahs-witnesses-back-in-court-watch-tower-bible-tract-society/
Such incredible arrogance!!
Reply
dee2 says:
March 17, 2016 at 7:49 am
***Watch Tower (WT) argued that the proposed inquiry was unlawful because it interfered or proposed to interfere with WT’s rights of freedom of religion…..
Freedom of religion……aah, WT’s famous ammunition for crying foul. Freedom of Religion is a one way street as far as the WT is concerned. Only they are entitled to Freedom of Religion, not the persons who exercise their right to Freedom of Religion and choose to leave the JWs who are shunned as punishment – leaving a religion should never mean losing your family and friends.
Only JWs must denounce other religions; when it is done to them it is persecution.
***Watch Tower (WT) argued that the proposed inquiry was unlawful because by starting an inquiry with a view to CHANGING JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES’ RELIGIOUS PRACTICES, the Commission was acting disproportionately……(emphasis mine)
Wow! So is the WT declaring that their flawed religious practices regarding the handling of pedophilia should not be changed? Are they saying that they have no intention of changing their Two Witness rule or reporting the abuse and pedophiles to the police? For that matter, should there even be a religious judicial process given that pedophilia is a crime – shouldn’t victims just go straight to the police with the matter?
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Chiafade says:
March 17, 2016 at 9:51 am
“Are they saying that they have no intention of changing their Two Witness rule or reporting the abuse and pedophiles to the police?” That’s exactly what they’re saying.
” For that matter, should there even be a religious judicial process given that pedophilia is a crime” Absolutely not! – shouldn’t victims just go straight to the police with the matter?” Yes! Right away.
The JW organization will never ever change ANYTHING until there is a legal precedent set. That’s what they are trying to avoid. That and the fact that their database of thousands of pedophiles will be exposed.
Reply
PeterB says:
March 17, 2016 at 12:42 pm
I find that WT has handled it’s child abuse reports & victims very cold and very horrible for decades and decades. As a student of the bible, religion & government cover-ups for almost 20 years, I choose to believe that this particular organization is a lesser of the evils. (I have already established in other comments on this website in the past few days that i am not a Jdub! LOL, I didn’t know folks in this community were so skeptical!!! OMG!) I believe that what they’re doing when it comes to their policies on child abuse is dead wrong. When I say lesser of the evils, I say…I feel the WT has made mistakes and is now trying to cover it up to save face. (That’s horrible, something is wrong and needs to be fixed) But, this is not going off topic…I believe Michael Jackson did not molest any children. Personally I believe he was so freakin’ fucked up in his head – that it did’t even cross his mind that having someone else’s child in his bed was a wrong and stupid thing to do! Now, that being said…I totally believe in some sort of punishment against him if I were a parent, even just for the fact that my child was in his bed. I BELIEVE THE WT IS SO STUPIDLY CLUELESS ABOUT THIS TOPIC. They actually believe they are doing the right thing!!!!!! Whereas other evil religions are doing evil things for the sake of being evil. (THE WT PRETENDS TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SAFETY OF CHILDREN, but their stubborn policies on the subject do not make any sense.) The two witness rule is the stupidest fuckin’ thing I’ve ever heard of when it comes to molestation!!! “The lesser evil” means that I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WT’S PURPOSE ON THE WORLD SCENE IS OF EPIC PROPORTIONS LIKE THAT OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OR OTHERS THAT ARE EVIL TO THE CORE. WT IS NOT HERE TO BE EVIL. THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS TO BE PURELY EVIL! But I still think that WT should pay for what they have done. I hope you all got my whole MJ illustration! LOL! I am about to post a reply to this i believe is very interesting. I saw a reply from some person on a news outlet’s story on this matter. What this person has to say is interesting!
Reply
PeterB says:
March 17, 2016 at 12:44 pm
(Comment from someone on a new article:) The precedent of forcing JW’s to “open” their judicial committee records to those outside of the judicial committee process would not only violate the trust necessary for all parties to (theoretically) speak freely in a judicial committee proceeding, but it would likewise also violate the first amendment to the US constitution by impeding JW’s from the free exercise of their religion. JW’s practice their religion in accord with their understanding of biblical direction & standards. Regardless of whether you or anyone else agrees with this source or their conclusions from such, JW’s have a right to engage in their religious franchise inclusive their judicial committee process which exists to ascertain and consider testimony, context, facts, motivations, etc., related to innocence or wrongdoing of one or more accused fellow JW’s. In some respects, the JW position is not unlike that of Apple in Apple’s challenge to the US government’s demands to provide the government with access to their iPhones by forcing Apple to provide a “key” that “opens” any given phone’s password. Compelling the JW’s to operate according to the vicissitudes of US standards at any given moment regarding this is, imo, as slippery a slope as the government’s compelling Apple to cooperate with them in cracking people’s smartphones, and could & probably would result in “solutions” with unforeseeable consequences much more universally harmful than those vexing us presently.http://www.wired.com/2016/02/a…
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Winston Smith says:
March 17, 2016 at 4:28 pm
@PeterB
The problem in this case is that the JWs are hiding viscous sexual predators and using undue influence to keep their members from contacting the authorities when a crime is committed. They are a dangerous cult and the government has a responsibility to protect its citizens from such controlling groups. Are they as bad a Heavens Gate or Jim Jones cult, no, but they are in the same ball park.
If they want status as a charity in the UK, which is what this debate comes down to, then they should be wiling to abide by the rules set forth for charities and share their records. Otherwise relinquish the charitable status and all is well – keep your records confidential. They want to have it both ways and that’s just plain wrong. They are by no means a charity.
WS
Chiafade says:
March 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm
“I didn’t know folks in this community were so skeptical!!! OMG!”
You make some compelling arguments but the above quote shows that you may be lacking in knowledge in a few critical areas regarding JWs and ex-jws as well. I hope you dont see this as an insult but your research into religions for “20 years” as you say, will not in itself tell you what you need to know about how the JW mind operates. For one thing you need to move beyond the realm of mere religion and look into high pressure/high control groups. Which is exactly what the JW organization is. Secondly, when you say things like “the Catholic Church is evil for the sake of being evil” and that “JWs believe they are doing the right thing and are not evil” you can’t blame us for calling you a JW in disguise. Those anti Catholic statements SMACK of JW dogma because all of us here who were witnesses know that JWs DESPISE the Catholic Church.
You can’t claim “they were trying to do the right thing” without knowing the whole picture. The evil Catholic Church apologized more than once about their horrendous problem with pedophile priests. The pope even met with some of the victims. The JW organization? Governing body? Not a peep. No public apology no personal visits to victims. Which is too bad because that would’ve made some good PR. Not only do they not admit to having any problem but they’ll punish their own members for speaking out. Does that sound like they care about doing the right thing? Or is it more like covering their ass?
When they changed their policies on blood, organ transplants, vaccines AFTER they forbid them many were left DEAD in the wake of these policies. They again never EVER apologized for any of it. Sound like nice deluded people trying to do the right thing? Or more like evil?
On a side note I don’t believe Mj did anything either. I do believe the JWs damaged his mind and that of his family.
Kurt Hennig - (Isaiah 49:26, 50:4) says:
March 17, 2016 at 9:04 am
@Dee2,
Hi,
I agree with much of what you say in certain regards. For example: In spite of what we were taught, It is important to note from the offing that there is no indication that anyone other than this group (below) will survive through into the New World. That invalidates any spurious claims made of alleged ownership and oversight of anybody or anything now and in the future. I won’t speculate on who may in the past have had authority at any point since it is not my domain but the dubious Watchtower history is cemented in fact!:
Revelation 7:9, 14, 15 (KJV)
9.After I beheld and, lo, a great multitude, which no man was able to number, of all nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
14. And I said unto him, Sir, though knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Nowhere in the Bible does it describe any “Governing Body” or “Watchtower Society” or any Legal Corporation of self-proclaimed representation standing outwardly from this group alone.
In fact, Zechariah 13:3-6 demonstrates that certain ones will soon cowardly deny the Watchtower Society and the high offices that they once relished in all their glory (Matthew 6:5, 12:14 Mark 3:29). Even people close to them will be no refuge so that they will have to hide while claiming to be merely working class. However, they won’t be able to fool those who are seeking them out for their crimes:
Zechariah 13: (3), 4-6
4. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, (which painfully miserably failed and with deadly effect) when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5. But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman (Farmer); for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6. And one shall say unto him, What are these (fresh, from lack of calluses) wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, those I received in the house of my friends.
The pharisaic Jewish system also met a violent end with Jah’s disapproval. Even so the seeming indestructible, great temple that was central to Jewish life and worship where Jesus prophesied, “There shall not be left here one stone upon another…” (Matthew 24:2) and where the raiding Romans army pulled down walls and tore up the floor stones looking for gold in their utter devastation: However, it is already clearly stated prophetically that “The Light of Truth” or “Spiritual Food” supply would become obscure and convoluted in the very end times in harmony with Matthew 24:45-51 which merely asks the question, “Who really is the faithful and discrete slave?” (And it is only a question):
Zechariah 14:5d, 6
5d. and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee.
6. And it shall come to pass in that day that the light shall not be clear, nor dark.
In fact, it goes on further to state in another context of “light and dark” that at the” Evening Time”, of man when “The light of salvation” would be manifested to him while on the verge of self extermination.
Since Adam and Eve were the dawn of mankind, man is presently facing the virtual extinction from the face of the earth at his own hand (Rev 11:18e)
Jesus prophesied in his Sermon on the Mount. Matthew, 24:22 “And except those days be shortened, there should be no flesh saved” We are in that great tribulation right now. It’s the “Great Earthquake” (Rev 16:18, 19) at the hands of Jah himself that we are very soon to see. At any given moment:
Zechariah 14:7
7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Further elaboration in verse 8 it states that “Living Waters” would pour forth from the newly established (on Earth) Jerusalem of above. The Bible described this “New Jerusalem” as ruling from Heaven while having a relationship with her ruling King Jesus who is the source of “living waters” (John 4:14, 7:37,38 Rev 22:17) and the “Light of Salvation” (John 9:5)as eternal and blessed by God so as to a marriage (Rev 21:2). It is also the same “Glorious Holy Mountain” or “Holy Mountain of Decoration” described at Daniel 11:44 but, contrary to common belief, this passage is not literal. It can not be since present earthly Jerusalem holds no Holy radiance and hasn’t since the Roman destruction and God’s removal of his blessing some 2000 years ago. Instead it indicates the King of the South standing in representation of and between it and the “Grand (or Great ) Sea” of Mankind isolated from God. This when “He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace” or “palatial tents” firmly in opposition to God’s Heavenly Kingdom where he then “will come all the way to his end, and none shall help him”.
The “disturbing messages from the sun rising and out of the north” have probably already begun in Syria and the Baltic, Russia and North Korea and China, the South China Sea as all things were written with geographic reference to Jerusalem. The “go(-ing) forth in a great rage to devote many to destruction” may possibly have begun in part but will likely yet see a specific climactic command. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)
Zechariah 14:8
8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be
Half of those blessings or symbolic waters in Zechariah 14:8 will flow towards the “Former Sea” of former-ly living ones who will be resurrected early on as may well be child bearing on into the New Earth (Joel 2:23, one month of years out of a millennium. Also, since the final test will take place at the end of the millennium. Rev 20:6-10, Ezekiel 38:8-23) so as to be educated in the events that had already taken place but more importantly in the new scrolls that will be opened and especially this most important of all “Book of Life” (Rev 20:12) revealing a never ending supply of our creators heretofore secret knowledge and ageless wisdom regarding who he is.
The “Hinder Sea” will receive the other half of the living waters which denotes those who survive through the great impending battle and those born afterwards in the new world.
“In summer and in winter shall it be” so this event will take place at or near an equinox between summer and winter.
Zechariah 14:9
9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name shall be one. (Rev 11:15, Ephesians 4:5, 6)
Also read: Joel 2:3
3. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. (Compare Zephaniah 1:12 Joel 2:25, 26, 32)
Reply
ruthlee says:
March 18, 2016 at 1:46 am
Kurt Hennig you make some very interesting points that many of us have considered. However your points are on the assumption that that this group were the unique property of god and he will punish them for their crimes against humanity. I think the heinous crime they can appoint to themselves is the self proclaimed entitlement to god’s name in their religion. So If you dare to use god’s name you better be prepared to face the consequences of his wrath if you lie, in his name. If the org is just another secular institution then the courts of justice will act and they will pay just like any other crooked dishonest organisation. When all is said and done people want justice for justice sake. Some it will just be enough that jws were wrong, misleading and punished. For others who believe in divine justice it will be the spanking of a life time that they deserve a chastisement and a severe rod of discipline upon their backs which they will have to take because it is their god disciplining them. Of course such hefty discipline will not be seen as persecution but a cleansing and scourging before they enter their lovely paradise. So in my mind it is win win jdubs lose face, credibility, loyal members and are exposed for the phonies that they are. ruthlee
Reply
Robert67 says:
March 18, 2016 at 4:42 pm
Let us not forget the irrefutable truths that this Watchtower organization is for a fact a fabricated cult for financial gain.
Repost, but all Watchtower skeptics must watch and share these truths.http://youtu.be/u5JnngqQYvc
Reply
Bad Penny says:
March 18, 2016 at 6:58 pm
NEWS BULLETIN>
I know I’m off topic here but the date for Memorial is getting close.
Is it just me or has anyone else wondered why Watchtower is using the Christian Paschal calendar to date Passover this year instead of the Jewish one. The Jewish Passover is 22 April, not March 23rd.
Watchtower should know the correct date shouldn’t they for the MOST IMPORTANT DAY OF THE YEAR??
Oh, hold on a minute, dates are not their strong point are they?
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← Watchtower News Bulletin: Watchtower loses UK appeal – Charity Commission investigation can continue.
Controversial 2016 District Convention Program: Be Loyal or be shunned! →
The Friday Column: Are Jehovah’s Witnesses More Honest and Moral Than Unbelievers?
avatar
Posted on March 18, 2016
When my husband and I stopped attending meetings, we joined a softball league. This presented us with the opportunity to get to know people and replace the friends we had lost. The first thing we noticed was how nice, family-oriented and honest they were. I had no fear of leaving my belongings unattended. In fact, many even left their phones and wallets on the bench. At that moment, it dawned on me that unbelievers were decent people.
This came as a bit of a shock because I was taught, from childhood onwards, to fear those outside the organization. If I stayed within the four walls of Jehovah’s organization, I would be protected from harm. Fear was one way to prevent me from leaving.
g-8-8-93-p2
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach extreme fear of the world’s morality (Awake August 8th 1993 p. 2)
Experience after experience is given, from the platform or printed in the magazines, promoting the idea that Jehovah’s Witnesses, alone, are moral, trustworthy and honest. And, if you associate with non-believers, you might be mistreated.
One such article is the 2009 Watchtower on Personal Preferences.
In Choosing Associates
Is socializing with those who do not share our faith simply a question of personal preference, or are Bible principles involved? One sister wanted to go to a party with a young man who was not a true Christian. Although warned of the dangers, she felt that it was her right to do so and therefore went to the party. Not long after she arrived, she was given a drink laced with a powerful sedative. She woke up several hours later and found that she had been raped by her so-called friend. (w09 2/15, pp. 20)
Generalizations and accusations are often made about non-Witnesses. Notice how the following Watchtower describes corruption:
Our world is characterized by greed and selfishness [emphasis given]. In such an environment, some people find it difficult to be different. Driven by selfish ambition, they become power hungry [emphasis given]. They also develop a strong desire for more money and possessions [emphasis given]—more than they really need. Sadly, they are willing to behave in a dishonest way [emphasis given] to achieve those goals. Rather than resisting unwholesome influences, such people “follow after the crowd for evil ends.”—Exodus 23:2. (w12 10/1 pp. 4-5)
The book Keep Yourselves in God’s Love makes the point that dishonesty is commonplace in today’s society.
16 Because Satan is the ruler of this world, we are not surprised to find that dishonesty is all around us [emphasis is mine]. Daily we may face temptations to be dishonest. When people write up a résumé to apply for work, it is a common practice to lie and exaggerate, inventing credentials and falsifying experience. When people fill out forms for immigration, taxation, insurance, and the like, they commonly give false answers in order to get what they want. Many students cheat on tests, or when they write papers and reports for school, they may go to the Internet and plagiarize what they find there, falsely presenting someone else’s work as their own. And when people deal with corrupt officials, they often offer bribes to get what they want. We expect as much in a world where so many are “lovers of themselves, lovers of money, . . . without love of goodness.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5.
17 True Christians are resolved not to engage in any of those practices [emphasis given]. What makes honesty a challenge at times is that those who do engage in such dishonest ways seem to succeed and even get ahead in today’s world. (Psalm 73:1-8) Meanwhile, Christians may suffer financially because they wish to remain honest “in all things.” Is it worth the sacrifices involved? Absolutely! But why? What blessings result from honest conduct? (lv chap. 14 pp. 160-170)
world
Witness teachings claim that Satan controls the morality of the entire world. [photo from jw.org website]
Believers and unbelievers are contrasted throughout Jehovah’s Witness literature, accusing the latter of being greedy, selfish, and dishonest. Then, when a witness “does the right thing” and returns something of value that was found, the story is used as PR for the religion.
awake-4-22-93
Awake! magazine implies that the world at large is filled with mostly dishonest people – (Awake!, April 22nd 1993, p.29)
One such case involves a New Hampshire woman. Early in 2015, Janelle Jones received a bundle of cash ($2,631) as she exited the drive-through of a fast food restaurant.
Ultimately, within an hour, she returned the money. Then, she and her husband, both Jehovah’s Witnesses, explained that they did so because “Jehovah sees everything [emphasis given]” (New York Daily News, Jan 2015).
This story was covered my multiple media outlets and shared by many Witnesses. Experiences, such as this one, drive home to current members the taught truth that they are “the most honest people on earth.”
Watchtower reiterates the idea that most of the world, human society that exists outside the true Christian congregation, would not act the same way.
Finders Keepers
How do you feel when you find something valuable that someone has lost? To many, this arouses immediate feelings of possession, causing them to wave aside any thought of returning it [emphasis added]. They have a “finders keepers” philosophy. Some may feel that there is no harm done. After all, they reason, the owner has undoubtedly written it off as a loss. Others say that it is not their responsibility to seek out the owner—a chore that might entail a lot of effort. …
How many people do you know who sincerely strive to be honest all the time [emphasis added]? Just imagine being with 50, 100, or 200 persons who are. That is the happy experience of Jehovah’s Witnesses at their Kingdom Halls. (w10 3/1, pp. 13)
However, there are many examples of unbelievers returning found money/belongings.
They are not motivated by fear of judgment, disappointment or guilt of sanctions. Instead, the moral compass of most people is inherently good.
Misha Anouk, in his article entitled “After The Burger King Money Find: 7 People Who Returned Loads Of Money Without Being Jehovah’s Witnesses,” states: “honesty simply is not unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses” (Taze.co, 2015). He illustrates this point with seven examples.
This brings me to two, personal experiences that demonstrate the opposite of what is taught by the Governing Body.
On a Saturday afternoon, myself and five others were driving around looking for people with whom to preach. In one shopping center, near the front of a major store, the Witness driver parked and walked over to the bus stop. Upon returning to her vehicle, she looked down and found a diamond ring. As no other cars or people were nearby, she excitedly took the ring. She was thrilled at her find. That very morning, she prayed to Jehovah for help, as she and her husband were having a tough time paying their bills. My friend sincerely thought it was not wrong to sell the ring. This way, she could continue spending her days in the ministry.
She is not alone; many of Jehovah’s Witnesses are struggling to make ends meet. They place more importance on spiritual matters than earning a living. Constantly, they are told to put Jehovah first and pray for help in matters of food, clothing and shelter.
Now, I knew keeping the ring was wrong. It appeared to be valuable; surely, someone would return looking for it. I asked to see it, and took it inside the store. I gave it to the manager where he locked it in the safe.
At first, this sister was upset at me. She said, “How do we know someone from that store lost it? I bet the employee will just keep it for himself!”
Guess what? Wordly people can “do the right thing.”
Later that day, the manager informed me that it was reclaimed. The lady who lost it, retraced her steps. The ring had fallen off her hand while she reached in her purse. She was devastated, upset, and scared that it was gone for good. She was grateful we turned it in.
I can remember telling ones, “If one of Jehovah’s Witnesses had not found that ring, she would never have gotten it back.” I gave no further thought to how the sister planned on selling it.
That is, until last Sunday.
You see, my aunt lost her ring while attending a local garden show with me and my husband. She was sickened by the loss. While I canvassed the area, looking for this heirloom piece of jewelry, I was calm. I knew that people were good and someone would turn it in.
I was right! The very next day, the show office called her; someone found it while cleaning up and returned it.
My point is not to accuse all of Jehovah’s Witnesses of being dishonest. Rather, I want to debunk the idea that one needs to be a religious follower of Bible standards in order to be moral and good.
Elizabeth Palermo, in her article “Religion Doesn’t Make People More Moral, Study Finds,” writes:
The moral high ground seems to be a crowded place. A [2014] study suggests that religious people aren’t more likely to do good than their nonreligious counterparts. …
Researchers asked 1,252 adults of different religious and political backgrounds … to record the good and bad deeds they committed, witnessed, learned about or were the target of throughout the day.
The goal of the study was to access how morality plays out in everyday life for different people, said Dan Wisneski … .
The study’s findings may come as a shock to those who think religious or political affiliation helps dictate a person’s understanding of right and wrong.
[They] found that religious and nonreligious people commit similar numbers of moral acts. …
(Live Science, 2014)
It is a misconception that only Jehovah’s Witnesses can keep to high moral standards.
Reflecting on the two experiences mentioned above, I cannot help but realize that my mind is clearing from the fog of indoctrination; I can clearly see that “wordly” people are moral, honest and good. I no longer worry that I will be harmed or mistreated. I am happily finding a place for myself in this world.
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95 Responses to The Friday Column: Are Jehovah’s Witnesses More Honest and Moral Than Unbelievers?
eyes opened says:
March 18, 2016 at 8:34 pm
Very nice article. I too have found that people are inherently good. The witness culture promotes and produces extreme prejudice. I was somewhat uneasy about the prejudice but being a good little jw I mostly behaved accordingly although not to an extreme. I now know better and behave better having shed the prejudice. Witnesses by and large are good people as are those who aren’t witnesses, you’ll always have a few bad apples in any group. However witnesses don’t seem to take the moral high ground where child abuse is concerned or the shunning policy. Two areas that would be shocking to many non-witnesses.
Regards
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Malachi says:
March 18, 2016 at 9:06 pm
Nice article Jane. I think that gaining trust in ‘worldly’ people is one of the more difficult accomplishments for one coming out of the JW cult. Every attempt is made to indoctrinate one with the thought that ‘worldly’ people are not trustworthy, moral, or honest. Even the adjective ‘worldly’ is used to lessen the quality of anyone who is not a JW. You certainly did the right and moral thing returning the ring despite the fact that the person who found it undoubtedly viewed it as ‘Jehovah’s blessing’. Hypocrisy at its finest.
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Jeffreycanning says:
March 18, 2016 at 9:34 pm
I have found two purses since becoming an ‘apostate’ and returned them both… I also found and returned one when I was a JW. So my religious beliefs made no difference.
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Clay says:
March 18, 2016 at 11:25 pm
I know a MS who went to jail for tax fraud and he claimed he didn’t know he was doing it now that he is out he is a MS again. Also an elder who is also a pioneer, was given much change back from casher at Arbeys he did not return it. This same elder found a expensive drill left by a worker on same job sight he wouldn’t return it unless the man gave him a finders fee. Point is it’s not what they claim people are people religious or not.
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Kl says:
March 19, 2016 at 1:23 am
With or without religion, good people can behave Well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil – that takes religion!
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Bad Penny says:
March 19, 2016 at 2:12 am
Absolutely KI –
‘for good people to do evil – that takes religion!’ Don’t we just see that with fanatical religious groups, it shows who their master is.
What was that comment in the Watchtower about corruption, the glove seems to fit them perfectly. The GB have certainly not been honest in all things as was seen in the recent Royal Commission enquiry.
P.S. Any comments on the memorial date – it’s getting very close. Have the Society got it right this year?? Can they be trusted with anything?
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Winston Smith says:
March 19, 2016 at 4:14 am
@Bad Penny
RE: Memorial Date
I am not too worried about the date of the memorial. In the grand scheme of JW errors, being a day off is not that big a deal. They’ve been saying Armageddon is “just around the corner” for over 100 years.
They are no worse (and certainly no better) than the Catholic Church in trying to have Easter always fall on a Sunday or setting up the birth of Christ on December 25. The teachings of Christ seem to indicate that the minor details are not that important, but rather the focus is on your intent and attitude. So it should not really matter when you choose to give rememberance to Christ, but rather your desire to do so.
Back to the topic at hand: Great article Jane Redwood. Something that really struck me early in my awakening was the realization that most so-called “worldly” people were decent and honest. In fact, I found them more pleasant to be around, since they did not have the prejudices and judgmental attitude of JWs.
WS
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Bad Penny says:
March 19, 2016 at 6:46 am
Thanks Winston – I do realise that dates are not a strong point with Watchtower, however there are a lot of ex JWs who feel they have to attend the memorial for family and friends. The date this year may not be just a day out, it may be a month! Check the Jews Passover date, they should really know shouldn’t they, since Jesus followed the same calendar and didn’t dispute it. As you say back to topic ….
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Winston Smith says:
March 19, 2016 at 7:24 am
@Bad Penny
I see what you mean now in relation to the date of Passover. So the JWs are following the same calendar as the Catholic Church, thus having the memorial coincide with Easter rather than the Passover. Usually, the Passover and Easter are closer, but due to calendar date discrepancies they are nearly a month off every so many years. This dates back to the counsel of Nicea when they determined that they would no longer follow the Jewish calendar.
So the Watchtower chooses to follow the path set by “Babylon the Great” when setting the date for the Memorial rather than going back to the calendar of God’s chosen people the Jews. Interesting. Do you think they do this because they figure they have a chance to win more converts if they hold the memorial around the same time as Easter?
WS
Bad Penny says:
March 20, 2016 at 4:42 am
WS – They have thrown their lot in with Christendom this year. I don’t know about more converts!??
I have done, as have many others, extra research on this. It involves not just the new/full moons but also the first barley harvest. It is supposed to be the MOST IMPORTANT day, so getting the date right is fundamental.
The Governing Body are so involved in getting awards and fighting child abuse cases that they have definitely got it wrong this year. God’s channel?? I don’t think so.
It brings to mind when God was mocking the Egyptians at the Red Sea by flicking the wheels off their chariots. Jehovah’s Witnesses are having their ‘wheels’ knocked off them one by one.
I pray with all my heart that they will one day be plunged into the ‘sea’, and are gone forever.
Winston Smith says:
March 20, 2016 at 6:22 am
@Bad Penny
Do you know if this is the first time they have done this or do they always follow Christendom? This one month disconnect between Easter and Passover only occurs every 15 to 20 years, so is it possible that this has always been the case for the Memorial? I always recall the memorial coinciding with Easter.
WS
Bad Penny says:
March 20, 2016 at 7:44 am
WS – I have only researched Jewish Passover dates. Since 1950 to 2049 the Passover has NEVER been celebrated before the 26th March (which was 2013). I do not have the WT bound volumes to check their Memorial dates, so I am unable to check of this happening before. One for you to research perhaps?
RetroFusion456 says:
March 22, 2016 at 7:19 pm
Speaking of the memorial, I just realized that everyone especially the sisters are overdressed like some sort of special ballroom dance is happening just for a 30 min or so talk. Then they pass up the bread and wine as if they’re denying Christ (Other so called Christians actually eat and drink them). In the end the elder just tells visitors (who happen to be 10% or less) to attend the special talk and to continue attending their meetings. Heck, I’d rather attend a Friday Holy Week and pray for my sins and partake the bread and wine just to show my respect for Christ. And speaking of which, after the memorial, everyone is so happy to take group pics and go straight to a restaurant late at night like Denny’s while other churches actually feel sad and go straight home like it’s a funeral.
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Chris says:
March 19, 2016 at 5:10 am
The watchtower society cult teaches it’s followers to have a hypocritical, judgemental, condemning and contemptuous attitude towards all people that are not in it… Like the Pharisees in the Gospels…. Like the pharisee and tax collector in Luke 18…it took me a long while to get rid of that… It’s one of the most common faults all people have, to some degree or another, I don’t think anyone is 100% free of it… But with time and persistence, we can get rid of it enough, so that it isn’t our overwhelming attitude towards others… Another thing that helped me was Matthew 25 sheep and goats… No mention is made of what people believe or don’t believe, what really matters is, how we treat each other
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Victor says:
March 19, 2016 at 10:55 am
Victor
Very true Chris. The only difference, according to Jesus teaching between the faithful and discreet slave and the wicked slave, is that the wicked slave beats up his FELLOW slave. Jesus didn’t say former slave, he said FELLOW slave, which means the wicked slave is still in the organization and cannot be confused with anyone who has left or been kicked out of the organization.
For example: would the governing body consider those they call apostates and who have left,still their fellow slaves? Of course not. So the wicked slave is still in the organization.
But just like any abuser, the wicked slave will deny it, blame the victim, and claim they are being persecuted. These ramblings by abusers are good clues then that may help identify that wicked slave.
The governing body needs to do a search for that wicked slave and the first place they need to look is the mirror.
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Robert67 says:
March 24, 2016 at 3:48 pm
Also keep in mind that other translations of the bible including the King James makes mention of ‘A’ slave, not ‘THE’ slave at Matthew 24:45. This translation obliterates their position as leaders of anything but a cult.
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Mark W says:
March 19, 2016 at 6:55 am
Judging and condemning everyone else as wrong while you are the only people who are right is a sure sign of a cult.
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Robert67 says:
March 24, 2016 at 3:52 pm
Even Jesus own instruction on the matter is irrelevant to these cult leaders
Mark 9:38-41, also Luke 9:40
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
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Tara says:
March 19, 2016 at 7:04 am
My daughter, pre getting pregnant and marrying a non witness, was dating a JW and they were going to get engaged and marry very quickly… she went with a pioneer sister across the line shopping. Whilst there she found a beautiful wedding dress and the pioneer sister insisted on buying it for her and she could pay her back later. Not only did the pioneer sister demand the money back, her pioneer husband added interest on the payment for each day until payment was made. I’m sure there is a scripture about this somewhere. My daughter was devastated about this and obviously the friendship was lost.
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Robert67 says:
March 24, 2016 at 3:55 pm
There is for a fact scripture on the matter, but completely irrelevant to a Witness
https://www.openbible.info/topics/charging_interest
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pj wilcox says:
March 19, 2016 at 8:16 am
Is it not amazing just how elite JWs think they are. This cult will indeed paralyze one. I have had a wrecking ball around my neck for years. I never fit in because of the fear the organizers at bethel reigned over me. After 40 years of utter despair I was only recently shown the door out of the sick sick cult like thinking. It takes time and i am upset that I wasted so much living in fear. Recently out of rehab for alcohol, i was able to see that I am not bad just sick and the sickness was a combination of just lacking coping skills along with the guilt of my PTSD. My counsellors and the ones around them were kind and truly cared. I am grateful I am alive today but without the guilt of the Watchtower. What venom they produce. Please keep yourself informed of what will be happening to the pedophiles in the JW organization. Its beginning to take its toll. JWs have no morality when they can cover up this sexual child abuse in my opinion
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Johnship says:
March 19, 2016 at 11:37 am
Im begining to realize that after 50 years in and findind out its false.is like working all your life to save for a retirement home and discovering the bank you put all your money in has gone bust! The directors have done the off with any money left an you have nothin !!
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Pj wilcox says:
March 19, 2016 at 9:44 am
Being around the JWs for years has certainly left a mark on me. For so long I would use the same terminology as an active witness but I chose to disassociate myself. With that said how can I speak like satan and this god Jehovah are real? I am an atheist and happy for the first time in my life.
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Outandabout says:
March 19, 2016 at 1:53 pm
That’s the way Pj…..to be really free of the JW rubbish you have to free yourself of the Bible as well. It’s a ridiculous document and doesn’t really say anything that people and civilisations past and present haven’t managed to work out all by themselves through hard experience and noticing what works and what doesn’t. If you sleep with your neighbours wife, there will be trouble. If you continually interbreed – trouble. Are there any words of wisdom in the bible that we wouldn’t have worked out or had already worked out without some bearded guy in the sky teaching us while at the same time essentially saying “love me or I’ll kill you”. Nice guy. Sign me up. Let me explain life here….imagine a beautiful newborn fawn prancing around all full of life and being the cutest and the most loveliest thing you’ve ever seen. Blue sky. Birds singing. Suddenly a tiger leaps out of the bush and sinks it’s fangs into it’s neck! That is life folks. In all it’s beauty and all it’s horror. It owes us no favours. Paradise and Hell is happening everywhere all the time and we cope with it as best we can. Don’t be afraid of it.
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Winston Smith says:
March 20, 2016 at 6:30 am
Based on your posts I think you would enjoy this video about the origins of religion: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w
Got to get that sky cake!
WS
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dee2 says:
March 20, 2016 at 2:27 pm
This video may also be of interest. It takes a look at the science of the mind and its relation to what makes us vulnerable to religious beliefs.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
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Outandabout says:
March 20, 2016 at 5:28 pm
I think you’re addressing me and if I’m right….thanks, I will have a peep later. I’ve read, thought and watched a fair bit over the years and the first thing that turned a lightbulb on for me, apart from listening to my B.S. detector in childhood, was reading James A Mitcheners ‘The Source’. Then I have JW’s in my family so have no end of peeps into the deluded mind. A lifetime thesis on brainwashing. It’s amazing and scary what people can so easily be conned into right up to this day. I can tell you with confidence that I know more about what they actually believe than they do, but you try telling them that. “Oh who told you that!! They just follow and obey without thinking. They’re afraid to think, especially with the big ‘A’ arriving before lunctime. ‘Millions now living have been Totally Duped’
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Idontknowhatodo says:
March 22, 2016 at 2:09 am
I agree wholeheartedly…the only way for me to be at peace was to reject all religion…I am a better person for it…kinder,more tolerant,less judgemental,caring and compassionate…Im a better workmate,colleague…and yes ..wife…though my husband doesnt see it…I try to make life count now in this moment and I am learning to finish what I start…a subtle influence of this controlling religion is that we dont need to see things through unless they pertain to out instructions from the gb…we dont need to finish our education…we dont need to finish saving for our retirement…we dont need to finish projects that take us away from our spiritual life…Im on a steep learning curve here and its quite a shock in your late 50’s…but release from the bible has been a huge factor in my life… Im now totally atheist and the mental relief is immense… Im still fading…I have not been to a meeting for 7 months and have not reported for 6months…Im going to the memorial… I think that will be the last time.
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dee2 says:
March 22, 2016 at 11:30 am
@Idontknowhatodo:
“release from the bible has been a huge factor in my life”.
Good for you Idontknowhatodo. Maybe by the year 3000 Christianity will begin to realize that it has been duped and that the bible is not the inspired, inerrant word of God but a collection of stories/legends/myths by men who claimed divine inspiration (and who had a nationalistic agenda); that It isn’t any more sacred or less sacred than the texts of other religions or of the writings (secular and non-secular, fictional and non-fictional) of the world’s great thinkers, philosophers and theologians. Admittedly, some of the stories contain historical facts about people, places and events and do have a message.
Maybe by the year 3000 too, Christianity will also come to realize that it is just a tradition – pity I won’t be around to see it.
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dee2 says:
March 22, 2016 at 3:47 pm
Idontknowhatodo:
A fun way to top off the memorial:
The following is a selection of scenes from the British comedy: LIFE OF BRIAN, written by Monty Pythons. It tells the story of a reluctant would-be messiah who rises to prominence as a result of a series of absurd and truly hilarious circumstances:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yuu9YH7_-T8
The entire comedy is available from:http://www.montypythononlinestore.com/*/DVD-Blu-ray/
Hope you’ll have a bellyful of laughter as I did :)
Cheers!
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Carlos Soto says:
March 23, 2016 at 7:25 am
I agree with you. There is only one thing that I am grateful to this organisation is that it helped me break free from ALL religion. Religion serves no other purpose than to keep oppressing anyone who allows it! “Love me or you will die, or don’t but still die anyway.” Imagine what a much better place this existence would be without religion!
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Winston Smith says:
March 23, 2016 at 9:54 am
Your comment reminded me of this satirical look at Christianity: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr1IMYYirmk
Or as John Lennon put it:
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…
WS
Juan Viejo says:
March 19, 2016 at 1:00 pm
Here is a little known but extensive resource of posts and articles using news sources and court documents that show that there are as many (if not more) con-men and shady dealers among Jehovah’s Witnesses (including elders). Reading some of the reports on this website will take your breath away. Give yourself an afternoon and just read a few of the stories this site shares and you will have an entirely different outlook on “the most honest people on earth.http://jwemployees.bravehost.com/NewsReports/2015.html
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Holy Connoli says:
March 21, 2016 at 5:11 am
@Juan Viejo. That is some incredible information about JW’s and their business dealings. I actually know a few of the people in there and others who tried to be just like them and some of their scams they had going on. I knew of several “SHADY” brothers and even a Circuit Overseer was part of it.
In N California there was a group of Prominent African American Brothers in the Music industry and they got a CO involved also and always had some kind of continual scam going on. I still know a Brother who tried to get many including myself to
invest in Foreign Exchange trades. Just give him your money and he claimed he would double your return on a monthly basis? I did the math and said do you realize what you are saying here?
If I give you just $1k in a year I will be a millionaire if you double it every month. Then he said Ok you are right but I can still guarantee you a 10% return each month! Crazy. He is living in Europe now and called me the other day and asked if he could borrow $30k from me! When I said No, he said Ok can you loan me $5k then? These guys are scammers.
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Grace says:
March 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm
It’s funny how we are given the council about not stumbling others over petty things like xmas yet if you call someone out on something, you become the worst person in the world for it. For instance, years ago I couldn’t understand how this “pioneer” brother could honestly go out trying to convert people to the “truth” when he was cheating the welfare system by collecting sickness benefits for depression but flushing his anti-depressants down the toilet. Then doing cash work for brothers mainly the wealthy elders to support his lifestyle.
When I brought that up to him & the elders that supported this dishonesty, I was treated like a jezebel woman for daring to speak unkindly of a pioneer & questioning the elders honesty by enabling him. I didn’t speak unkindly to him or them, I was trying to get them to see what I saw as an honest worker.
You could go on & on with the dishonesty & justification that goes on in this cult. They would put down born-agains with the “once saved, always saved” hypocrisy yet had the same attitude. The belief that they are God’s chosen people covered over their sins. I didn’t disagree with that to a point but when you are for years & years collecting welfare from people who are doing an honest days work just screamed hypocrisy & defeated the purpose of the ministry.
I thought that it was a total lack of respect for a system that is there to support those who genuinely needed it. I wouldn’t have worried that much about it if it was just this person acting alone but he had the support from all of the elders as they would get cheap ‘cash’ labour from him.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
March 19, 2016 at 4:59 pm
The most dishonest people I have ever met in my life were individuals who were my christian brothers..
Liars…thieves..slanderers…gossips…judgmental… they have ruined lives…Iv seen it happen…Im sure this happens everywhere…but thier standards are meant to be Gods…I want to laugh but it sticks in my throat… 50 years…living with this…Im free now to a point…and it feels so good.
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Holy Connoli says:
March 19, 2016 at 7:21 pm
@Idontknow. My experience over the years with JW’s honesty is good an bad. I was in business with some JW developer who would
build houses etc. My brother a Non JW an d myself would loan him money to build and then he pays us back when the property would sell. With interest of course and other bonuses. He would always change the agreement when it was time to sell and try to take awy money he owed us.
When the recession hit like 6-7 years ago He purposely borrowed as much money as he could from various sources not me but he did from my brother in the amount of app $250000. He pretended he was working on the project and then aftyer about a year filed BK. All along he was living off the loan but never started to build the property. Obviously he had no intention and then hid the money and filed the BK. After he filed BK he said Sorry… I had no choice. He planned it.I have so many stories with JW;s not paying back and being dishonest in business would make your skin curl.
Also in N California after some serious summer fires in the mid 90’s many houses were burned down and lost. The insurance company was paying homeowners $$ to rebuild. Some JW elder who had a contractors license but never built a house was able to get money from the insurance company and spent most of it and never built the house for the poor “WORLDLY” homeowner.The homeowner sued him and he had nothing
to sue for so just partied with $300k for 1 year. I have many more but you see the point. They are not all like that and of course many good ones and honest ones but the point is you do not need to be a JW to be honest. They are not as honest as they like to claim.
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Winston Smith says:
March 20, 2016 at 6:40 am
All that matters in this organization is that you say the “right things,” kiss the right people’s backsides, and keep those donations coming. I have seen people get away with horrible offenses and keep right on in their privileged positions. Maybe they got a small slap on the wrist, but as long as they maintained the “right” attitude they were back in their position in no time. I recall one elder who got caught cheating on his wife about every 5 to 10 years. He’d get DF’d or reproved, be back in a year, be serving as an elder again in another year, then get busted cheating a few years down the road. Happened about 3 or 4 times over several decades.
WS
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Robert67 says:
March 23, 2016 at 9:04 pm
The whole welfare scam is synonymous with the Watchtower. Members are conditioned to find the most bottom of the barrel job, work the least amount of hours and just get the rest needed from hard working college educated tax paying worldly people. How many jw construction contractors, many of whom have privileges cheat on their taxes omitting cash work? Don’t get me started on the whole home schooled purchased diplomas.
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Clay says:
March 19, 2016 at 3:41 pm
According to Jewish colander. Passover
Begins sunset of Friday, April 22, 2016
Ends nightfall of Saturday, April 30, 2016 Is this correct?
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Clay says:
March 19, 2016 at 3:46 pm
If so why is the Memorel a month earlier?
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 20, 2016 at 3:37 am
Not sure what you are looking at….but my “worldly” (ugly word) calendar says March 20th is Palm Sunday, then March 25th is Good Friday, March 26th Easter Saturday and March 27th Easter. So the celebration of the Memorial is always before “Easter”, so the 23th is correct.
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Winston Smith says:
March 20, 2016 at 6:44 am
Every 15 years or so there is a one month disconnect between Easter and Passover. This is because of differences between the Jewish Calendar and the one made at the Counsel of Nicea by the Catholic Church. The JWs apparently follow the Catholic Church calendar rather than the Hebrew Calendar. See the earlier posts By Bad Penny above.
WS
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Bad Penny says:
March 20, 2016 at 8:17 am
JWs are using the Paschal moon to date Passover this year which is in contradiction with the Jewish festival from 22nd April. Jesus never contended with the Jewish date, so why do Watchtower? We know that the Easter celebration has connotations, so to align the date with this is wrong anyway, although, for the most part, memorial does usually coincide with the Paschal moon. It is only in years when the barley crop has not had sufficient time to ripen that the following new moon is used to work out the date of Nisan. This happens about every 19 years, and this year is one of them.
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Winston Smith says:
March 20, 2016 at 8:44 am
@Bad Penny
Thanks for the additional clarification.
WS
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Darlene says:
March 25, 2016 at 6:54 am
I was wondering that too….
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Sharon Christensen says:
March 19, 2016 at 8:25 pm
Good article…I know from life experiences, after JW.ORG…Most people are good hearted, kind and honest…no matter what religion or nationality…One example my Father had after being in a town faraway from home after attending an elders mntg…he was about to leave, but noticed he had a flat tire…all the elders drove away and never asked him if he needed help…along came a worldly person and insisted on helping my Dad cuz it was a cold winter evening…Dad would have done the same to a worldly person…even if a person was so called dfed by the JW.org…Father did not adhere to the rules…he spoke kindly and showed them love…and made them coffee and treated them as nothing was wrong, because he said …man made rules…and who is one or a group of people to judge themselves as better than any one else…needless to say he was removed from the position of elder in no time. Father did not care, he was who he was
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Tara says:
March 20, 2016 at 7:34 am
If there were more kindness shown and love, I suspect many of us would still be ‘in’. Having said that, once we begin to wake up we also find doctrine that is false. I for one will never go back to organised religion. My God, the one I found at 12 years old, knows me. I have my faith in him. I cannot even read the Bible now as I don’t know truth from lies. So I will walk by faith and not by sight.
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Winston Smith says:
March 20, 2016 at 8:19 am
@Tara
Yes, they fail on all counts don’t they. Erroneous doctrine, failed predictions, and overall lack of love and compassion. But that’s what we get with a cult of this nature. Reminds me of the writing on the wall in Daniel: “Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.”
WS
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Holy Connoli says:
March 21, 2016 at 5:29 am
@Tara. I am the same Tara. There cannot be much Love in a org that has so amny Man made rules that you MUST follow or you will be punished and everyone is told to snitch on anyone no t following the rules wtc, It is like Communism bc you MUST adhere to the Bureau and they are always looking over your shoulder. As far as reading the bible goes, that may take time bc we are indoctrinated by the WT for so long. I notice when I listen to or see other bible thumpers many of them also make you feel like you must believe the way they do or you will be punished etc. Not the same as the WT but similar.
I to found God at 12 years old… Actually younger and I have been a believer and always will be but not the Wt way. If I read the bible and Jesus words they can be calming to me but it takes time to get rid of the WT indoctrination on the bible.
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Tara says:
March 21, 2016 at 6:19 am
It’s almost like they tainted it. :(
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Robert67 says:
March 23, 2016 at 9:19 pm
Just focus on what Jesus asked of you, everything else in the Bible for the most part was written to others, for our benefit but not to us. Love God, Love your neighbor, don’t judge lest you be judged, share where you can the message of the door that is open to all who can make an effort to follow these instructions. In a time where Christ teachings have been soiled with man made pharisaecal rules people need to know how valuable Christ sacrifice is as pertains to forgiving our sins, we cannot out sin Gods love, thanks to Christ. Persist in prayer and take advantage of that blessing as well.
Twmack says:
March 20, 2016 at 3:07 pm
As regards honesty based on pure motive– empathy
for the person who has lost their wallet or wedding ring etc,
I don’t believe JWs come out any better or worse than any
other section of society.
What might give them a slight edge, is fear of the all seeing
eye that constantly scrutinises their every action and thought
24/7. ( Could anyone ever come up with a better method of
control? No wonder they have a high suicide rate.)
I’m sure there are many who love their God and are honest
from pure motive. But others will hand the wallet back
because of the often quoted stories like that of Achan.
As you know he stole some stuff that had already been stolen
from someone else. Consequently, he along with all his sons
and daughters and cattle were stoned to death, then set fire to.
It’s enough to make honest men of politicians, but a worthless
as a motive for morality.
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Doc Obvious says:
March 20, 2016 at 3:51 pm
Watchtower Babble and Tract Society has one of the worst morals. When a Royal Commission can review the Watchtower within a couple of months, and can draw conclusions on how indecorous the religion is, is it really any wonder why they are not in good standing with Jehovah God? A 15% increase in donations should tell people something is very wrong. When David Splane explains what journalistic integrity is to an award winning journalist, there is something wrong. Especially when the Watchtower magazine’s writers cannot even put their name on the paper. Seriously. There is no credibility there and slowly the legal systems in the respective countries are finally figuring out who really the Watchtower Babble and Tract Society really is. A hypocrite.
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Scrubmaster says:
March 20, 2016 at 5:46 pm
The goodness of people is truly astounding. I used to laugh when I heard only we as Witnesses were the only morally good people left on earth. I mean how many times have we seen even homeless people return things of value. If anyone may possibly want to keep something of value why not some one in such a destitute situation. I have seen videos recently were a homeless person was given some money and he did not just go buy food for himself, he brought food for others who were homeless as well. People are generally good. Let’s be honest some of the worst atrocities humans have ever done to other humans have been in the name of religion and I am referring to all religions.
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Karol says:
March 20, 2016 at 8:02 pm
Hello from Mexico, in my personal experience I have found reliable and honest disbelieving people, in fact one of my best friends is not Jehovah’s Witness, and also have sadly noticed that there are brothers witnesses are unreliable, I work as a mechanic and unfortunately some Christian brothers have not paid me for my services in contrast some of the so-called worldly have proved to be decent and trustworthy people, I remember especially a stranger who asked me to please repair your car (at that time had no money to pay for repair thereof) but what was my surprise that days later as promised did, things have contibuido how are you my wake up and see that outsiders are not as bad as they make us believe.
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Wip it says:
March 20, 2016 at 8:19 pm
I have just returned home after a C assembly, just to support wife & kids, the public talk was based on how JW can prove we have the truth, it made me sick, how the speaker condemned the Catholic church (didnt name them) but every body knew what he was saying, & i thought hang on, this is the kettle called to pot black, also the point of False Prophets, & pointing the finger at main stream religion, also how people have been mistreated by main stream religion, i thought that if the same talk was given by say Severn Day Adventist for example the evidence in the talk would identify JW as the false religion, on top of that the money grab, a demo where the teenager wanted a new mobile phone, no no no that money can go to the WT, also over $5000 to run the hall for the day, eftposs machines at the ready, you can use your credit card, anyway to make the day further disgusting in regard to child abuse & rubbing main streams nose in it, a familiy were their whose father abused his own daughter, got away with it & just 8 days prior had killed herself, & they say we look after victims.
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Chiafade says:
March 20, 2016 at 10:47 pm
Oh yeah been in that situation before. During an assembly after my awakening the circuit overseer had a talk where he said “people are leaving false religions in droves because of the hypocrisy that they note in them”. I was working backstage at the time and wanted to rush the stage and scream into that mic ” this INCLUDES JEHOVAHS WITNESSES!” It’s sickening and disgusting. What a slimey underhanded cult I am ashamed to ever be a part of.
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Wip it says:
March 20, 2016 at 8:23 pm
Just to add a point i missed, we have just had the royal commission with the Catholic’s here in Australia, & as we all no we have also had the JW one to, i reason with other JW, that how can we say the media are lying about us when they are going after other Religions.
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Fooledmeonce says:
March 20, 2016 at 11:03 pm
Growing up as a JW, starting in the early 70’s to just recently, I constantly heard, “Don’t do business with Jehovah’s Witnesses.” That was from other Jehovah’s Witnesses not from ‘worldly’ people!
There are some honest JWs for sure, but there are many JWs who feel that Jehovah wants them to get ahead or that they will be forgiven for any dishonesty that they commit. Many JWs can be a nasty bunch of very dishonest and selfish people, believe me.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
March 21, 2016 at 12:19 am
Jehovah’s witnesses morality depends on the degrees to which they are manipulated…
Consider the following from their publication (w01 12/1 p. 27):
“They trained us to be observant so that we would not be easily caught by the police.
Congregation meetings were held in the homes of Witnesses. When we noticed that the neighbors were becoming suspicious, the meetings were quickly moved to another location so that the house would not be raided or the brothers arrested. Picnics, as we called our assemblies, were held in Monsanto Park, on the outskirts of Lisbon, and at Costa da Caparica, a wooded area on the coast. We dressed casually for the occasion, and a group of vigilant attendants stood guard at strategic points. If anyone suspicious approached, we had time to improvise a game, set up a picnic, or start singing a folk song.
To make it harder for the security police to identify us, we avoided using our real names. The brothers knew us as João Maria and Maria João. Our names were not used in any correspondence or records. Instead, we were assigned numbers. I made a conscious decision not to memorize the addresses of the brothers. That way, if I was arrested, it would not be possible for me to betray them.”!
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Daniel says:
March 21, 2016 at 5:00 am
Thank you sooooo much for clearing it up that misconception that ONLY JW’s can be moral and honest. I had nooooo idea! (sarcasm intended)
This is a poor article for many reasons. I am transitioning from a JW to atheism myself. I always knew that JW’s don’t hold a moral high ground just based off of their title. I remember one time when this sister found a camera in a parking lot of a starbucks and was boasting about it. I asked if she attempted to give it to a lost and found at the starbucks, guess what she said? “No, the employees will probably just keep it for themselves!” Sounds like your anecdote right? Well I got on to a local online lost and found website and found a posting for a camera that looked exactly the same and specifically said, “please just return the SD card so we can at least have the memories” after showing this to the sister realized this was their camera and gave it back to them and commented at the watchtower the next sunday about it… oh wait, but she didn’t! She deleted the photos and said, “I guess we’ll never know” So what does this counter example prove? Honestly, nothing. That sister ended up cheating on her husband and is an anti-JW. Does this example prove anything about anti-JW’s? I am sure many of you would disagree. The point is, some people some people do the right thing and some don’t. JW’s are constantly encouraged to do the right thing in those situations but sometimes don’t. I don’t understand the point on picking on JW’s. Even that study mentioned at the is all encompassing to religions.
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Tara says:
March 21, 2016 at 6:31 am
Yes it in Daniel but again we see that the high standard that JW’s brag about to the world is only as thick as the skin of the witness. To preach that JW’s are the next best thing to perfection and are God’s people, on a Saturday and then abuse and hide child abuse, lie, steal and cheat on every other day is somewhat hypocritical don’t you think?
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Daniel says:
March 22, 2016 at 9:03 am
Well, I absolutely disagree with the latter part of your statement. The average JW doesn’t “hide child abuse, lie, steal and cheat” every other day. And if they lie, steal, and cheat, they probably do it on about the same regularity as all of us humans on earth. I consider myself an ex-jw, I don’t want that woman in my example to define me. Do you want her to define you? Or is it her JW upbringing that caused her to ultimately cheat on her husband? I don’t think so, I think she is just a woman who was horny or in need of more excitement, or who knows what. But she acted on her desires and needs. She hurt a lot of people, mainly her ex. Now she rants and raves about her hatred towards JW’s. I have a sneaking suspicion though that many of the people that frequent this website would accept her and maybe even rationalize her actions.
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Winston Smith says:
March 23, 2016 at 9:17 am
A couple thoughts Daniel:
You say the average JW doesn’t hide child abuse. That’s true. It’s the leaders that hide child abuse. Many of the rank and file JWs are unaware as to the extent of the problem. Others turn a blind eye or excuse the organization for their mishandling of abuse cases. But as it has been said, the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.
As you say, JWs probably lie, cheat, steal at the same regularity as the rest of the population. The Watchtower claims that JWs are a better than the rest of the population. Which to your point is difficult to measure. The article is making the point that this Watchtower claim is false.
WS
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
March 21, 2016 at 11:06 am
Remember most of them are “sheeplike people”!! Their morals are MOSTLY challenged when it comes to what humans share with sheep: SEX.
Ask yourself:
1) How many JW’s will fail this?
w70 5/15 pp. 299-300:
“Today in the various church baptismal ceremonies of Christendom the following devices are included: godparents, … These are identified by The Catholic Encyclopedia and other religious authorities as being appendages of demon practice or devil worship and therefore unchristian.”!
Fewer JW’s will fail to obey and associate with Christendom… but How many will fail to say this:
w12 8/15 p. 28 par. 13: “My wife committed adultery with one of my former students.”
They say “there is “no evidence that dogs preferred a $50 toy to a $5 toy.” (g05 4/22 p. 28)!!
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Grace says:
March 21, 2016 at 4:07 pm
The one thing that used to bug me was the constant bragging about how much better JW’s were than everyone else on morality issues. Especially if you’re a convert from the outside coming in & not a born in. I lived as a “worldly” person for the first 30years of my life, so I knew that those statements were ridiculous. I used to sit there thinking “when you’re pointing the finger, there’s 4 pointing back at you”.
Also, this self promoting goes against Jesus’ message about quiet humility & not bragging like the hypocrites do. It’s in bad taste & no one likes a boaster. I think that it’s okay to give yourself praise but putting others down while you’re doing it, makes it a very unattractive trait that the Society has. Especially when they know full well that it is not the case.
I used to think of the Bible verses & think; doesn’t it say in the Bible in Proverbs 27:2?…”Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips”.
Also, 2 Corinthians 11:30…”If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness”.
I used think to myself; for people who are sprouting “the truth this”, “the truth that”. They certainly do a lot lying & yes there are liars both in & out but when they run around pointing the finger at everyone else then boast about themselves, expect it to draw criticism. That’s why this article hits home for me.
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Daniel says:
March 22, 2016 at 9:10 am
I totally agree with you. I was raised a witness but I saw that in the world there was a lot of nice people that could be easily identified as good and moral. I think anyone of us who was a witness has even said, or heard, “they would make such a good witness.” However, now realize that this article is pointing the finger at the Watchtower. So is the old axiom that you mentioned that you stated still true? Isn’t there 4 fingers pointing back at any of us picking apart the WT? I personally the weakest point of this article is the example of the girl that didn’t want to return the ring. She did that in spite of what she would be encouraged to do through the watchtower. If anything it only proves that single individuals hypocrisy or inability to live up to that standard.
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Winston Smith says:
March 21, 2016 at 3:44 pm
@Daniel
I don’t see where you have effectively proven your thesis statement that this is a poor article. The Watchtower claims that its members are the most moral people on earth. It also claims that all nonmembers are immoral and driven by greed and other debased motives. Do you disagree with the fact that Watchtower has stated this?
After using direct quotations to establish these Watchtower statements, the author shows by example that the Witnesses are not any more moral than the rest of the world. The point is to debunk the Watchtower claims noted above. So apparently you disagree with the authors attempts to do this. How would you attempt to correct this Watchtower lie? Or do you contend that no lie exists?
The Watchtower religion is a cult that uses lies like these to maintain control of its members through fear. It is helpful for recovering cult members to reflect on the lies they were told and to see how they were untrue. The article achieves this intent. Please clarify how you feel it fails to do this.
WS
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Daniel says:
March 22, 2016 at 8:51 am
First of all, you can’t definitively even prove any organization is more or less moral than any other group of people on the earth. It was a poor article because it points out quotes that the watchtower puts out in their teaching material and uses anecdotal evidence to say they prove the statements wrong. I live around a lot of LDS people, and they make the exact statements that witnesses make regarding morals. Every time I witness an LDS person acting dishonestly or “immorally” it doesn’t prove anything to me, except that, no person can live up to perfect standards.
In my transition to an atheism I realized humans will do what they want ultimately. But having positive reinforcement that you can be a good person, and you can be proud of it, is not a bad thing. It is true that many JW’s take it too far, some even get depressed because they don’t feel like they live up to those standards. But I see this as a religion problem overall, not just JW’s. However, that being said, whenever someone acts in hypocrisy they’re not proving the high moral standards wrong. They’re also not proving the admonishments ungrounded, they’re only proving their own inability to live up to those standards themselves. And that still doesn’t prove the standards themselves are the absolute best.
And I disagree with you, I was never taught that ALL non believers are immoral and greedy. I would like to see that quote. However, I happen to agree with them that we do live in a world that encourages ALL OF US to be greedy and give into selfish desires. Even Bill Maher (ardent atheist) ranted on his show last week about the self loving movement. So, as much I disagree with JW’s that they are definitively the most moral people on earth, I believe that on a spectrum they probably hold, and live up to, (their) higher moral standards in general. In the UK the Behavioral Insights Team, or the “Nudge Unit,” found that they could get many non taxpayers to pay their taxes by just sending them a simple letter that mentioned that the vast majority of their fellow citizens paid theirs. It shows that when we exposed to these high standards, and have constant reinforcement to these standards, you’re more likely to act on them. But as we all have seen, there will be a hypocrite. But this true of JW’s, LDS’s, republicans, and (gasp) maybe even some of this people reading this article. Maybe even the article writers themselves!!
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dee2 says:
March 22, 2016 at 11:10 am
@Daniel
It seems you have missed the point of the article.
The point at issue here is not whether or not persons can live up to perfect standards.
The point at issue here is the JW’s US vs. THEM phobia indoctrination which breeds and magnifies a fear of “worldly” people by claiming that JWs are more honest and moral than non-JWs and so non-JWs are “worldly” people and bad association. This phobia indoctrination causes JWs to limit their social network to JWs only.
I for one was told that it would be wrong to participate in extracurricular activities at school and outside of school since non-JWs are “worldly”, evil, satanic people and are therefore bad association.
I also recall on one occasion during my teenage years when I mentioned to a JW that I would be spending a few days at the home of my mother’s friend, his response was: ‘Are they witnesses’?
In this post, I also gave an experience I had with a JW who insisted that I shouldn’t miss meetings because I need to be with Jehovah’s people because the people in the world are so bad and only JWs are good. Her fear of “worldly” people was tantamount to hysteria and mania.
JWs are constantly brainwashed to believe that they should only associate with JWs because JWs are superior, more honest and more moral than non-JWs and so it would be wrong to keep non-JW friends.
The point of the article is to debunk the JW belief that they are superior to everyone else and that they have the monopoly on good people. The fact is good people are scattered everywhere among us. This JW belief is used as phobia indoctrination to control the minds of JWs and make them fearful of leaving the cult. This therefore proves to be a very effective retention strategy for the JWs.
Also, the fear of “worldly” people results in a lack of association with non-JWs. This is the WT’s way of ensuring that JWs will be prevented from hearing anything critical of the religion.
The point of the article is that the belief that JWs are more honest and more moral than non-JWs is used as a mind control and brainwashing tool. Mind control and brainwashing techniques are usually employed by religions to persuade members that they alone teach truth.
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Outandabout says:
March 22, 2016 at 4:24 pm
Well spoken, Dee2.
Winston Smith says:
March 23, 2016 at 9:44 am
Daniel, I appreciate your taking the time to reply to each post. I think dee2 has summed up most of what needs to be said in reply, but I’ll add a couple items.
You were looking for a quote where the watchtower said that ALL non-JWs are immoral and greedy. The Watchower never to my recollection uses the word “all” but rather generalizes and says “the world” is like this or is like that. By generalizing they imply that 99.9% of the world fits their generalization, with only 1/1000 having good qualities, and hence worthy of being converted. This is common practice for cults, using fear of the outside world to keep the membership enslaved.
Quotes like this one come to mind: “While some contact with worldly people is unavoidable – at work, at school, and otherwise-we must be vigilant so as to keep from being sucked back into the death-dealing atmosphere of this world. Let the world go along in its way, reaping its bad fruitage in the form of broken homes, illegitimate births, sexually transmitted diseases, such as AIDS, and countless other emotional and physical woes.” Watchtower 1987
Sep 15 pp.12-14
Further quotes are above in the article at hand.
I agree that religion can provide positive reinforcement for good behaviors. That is true of many religions. Others, however, exercise undue control and really must be characterized as cults. The JWs fall into the latter category.
WS
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dee2 says:
March 23, 2016 at 11:43 am
Daniel some more thoughts:
“it doesn’t prove anything to me, except that, no person can live up to perfect standards.”
If this is the case then why is the WT labelling JWs as superior to everyone else?
“whenever someone acts in hypocrisy they’re not proving the high moral standards wrong. They’re also not proving the admonishments ungrounded, they’re only proving their own inability to live up to those standards themselves.”
Which is all the more reason why the WT shouldn’t be labelling JWs as superior to everyone else since they too lack the ability to live up to moral standards themselves.
“So, as much I disagree with JW’s that they are definitively the most moral people on earth, I believe that on a spectrum they probably hold, and live up to, (their) higher moral standards in general.”
What proof do you have of this? Do you have any data on how JWs compare to the rest of the world?
http://aawa.co/jw-crime-map/
has created a map and database of crimes committed by Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide (the JW Crime Map).
According to the website:
****The map, as you will see, clearly shows that these crimes are at the very least as common within the Witness community as they are within the rest of society, and not what Watchtower wants Witnesses or anyone else to think.****
Do you have any data to counter this?
“But as we all have seen, there will be a hypocrite. But this true of JW’s, LDS’s, republicans, and (gasp) maybe even some of this people reading this article. Maybe even the article writers themselves!!”
This attests to the point that there are good and bad people in every sphere of life so no need to create a fear and phobia of the rest of the world who are not JWs.
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dee2 says:
March 23, 2016 at 2:29 pm
****** Do you have any data on how JWs compare to the rest of the world?
According to the website:http://jwemployees.bravehost.com/NewsReports/2015.html
“The following state and federal employment related criminal and civil court cases are not intended as evidence that Jehovah’s Witness Employees are more dishonest than other employees, but rather are intended to demonstrate that Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as dishonest, or honest, as are other members of the human population — whether religious or non-religious.”
Do you have any data to counter this?
dee2 says:
March 23, 2016 at 1:00 pm
Daniel, some more thoughts CONT’D:
“First of all, you can’t definitively even prove any organization is more or less moral than any other group of people on the earth.”
If this cannot be proven then how are you able to assert that:
“So, as much I disagree with JW’s that they are definitively the most moral people on earth, I BELIEVE THAT ON A SPECTRUM THEY PROBABLY HOLD, AND LIVE UP TO, (THEIR) HIGHER MORAL STANDARDS IN GENERAL” (emphasis added).
If as you state :”you can’t definitively even prove any organization is more or less moral than any other group of people on the earth” then how are you able to place the JWs on a spectrum and compare them to others?
“It was a poor article because it points out quotes that the watchtower puts out in their teaching material and uses ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE to say they prove the statements wrong” (emphasis added).
Is the evidence provided in the article just ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE or is this evidence a part of a larger data set which proves that the WT’s statements are wrong?
1. Have you read all of the comments on this article? If you did you would have noticed that some of the commenters have provided their own evidence to prove that the WT’s statements are wrong.
2. As I stated above:
http://aawa.co/jw-crime-map/
has created a map and database of crimes committed by Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide (the JW Crime Map).
According to the website:
****The map, as you will see, clearly shows that these crimes are at the very least as common within the Witness community as they are within the rest of society, and not what Watchtower wants Witnesses or anyone else to think.****
Do you have any data to counter this?
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dee2 says:
March 23, 2016 at 2:04 pm
******* 1. Have you read all of the comments on this article?………… The following website was included in one of the comments; it documents state and federal employment related criminal and civil court cases involving JWs:
http://jwemployees.bravehost.com/NewsReports/2015.html
Do you have any data to counter this information?
Regards.
John Redwood says:
March 26, 2016 at 10:03 am
Daniel
Unfortunately you completely missed the point of the article. Within the Jehovah’s Witness organization there is a culture of superiority which is used as a tool by Witnesses to enhance their bias for the religion and against those who are in “the world”.
It seems you are concerned with pointing the finger at the Watchtower. Why wouldn’t we point the finger? As a whole, the organization is a very captive organization which isolates its members from society in general, encouraging them to refrain from associating with anyone not a Witness, refrain from higher education, and refrain from anything remotely connected with interfaith. They quote Jesus who said “I have taken you out of the world” and quote John who said “The world is passing away and so is its desire…”
Witnesses wish to find and use every possible means to confirm their bias that they, and ONLY they have the true religion, and all others will perish if they reject God’s organization.
One of the by-products of this is the belief among Witnesses that they follow Jesus’ example more closely than ANYONE else on earth, period. Which means they believe they are the most honest and reputable people in the world. Socially, Witnesses tell stories every day of how a JW became notable because of his or her honesty, such as when a Jehovah’s Witness returned a very expensive ring lost years ago by comedian Red Skelton. I have heard hundreds of versions of the Johnny Carson urban legends spread by JWs for years, in which he supposedly told the press that his accountant and housekeeper were both Witnesses, and he trusts them because of their honesty.
The point is that all of this derives from the Watchtower organization, which creates and nurtures this environment and superiority complex. They are first and foremost to blame since they write and publish the articles which influence Witnesses to take on this belief system. There is nothing wrong with promoting honesty. But if you create a situation where your members feel their beliefs and practices are superior to those of other faiths, then you must face the reality that you will be criticized, and rightly so.
You stated that “I consider myself an ex-jw” – what exactly does that mean? Were you never baptized as a Witness? if this is the case, it might explain your comments. Feel free to elaborate
Sincerely,
JR
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Gary says:
March 21, 2016 at 7:15 am
JW.org is just a badge (as we know).
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Doc Obvious says:
March 21, 2016 at 7:33 am
I loved the JW Broadcasting March program analysis done by Lloyd Evans. Lloyd’s analysis is right on. Watchtower never considers a situation when things go really bad. It is always about the best conclusions when it comes to severe health related issues. They never consider the “what if” scenarios that are represented in life’s most dire situations.
The answers to those questions are either Leave it in Jehovah’s hands or you must have done something wrong on your end (deflection). Isn’t that nice and comforting.
Personally I found the March program completely depressing. Not up building at all. The lady who volunteered to do Watchtower construction found herself facing a life-or-death dilemma after a bomb exploded inside a Watchtower Construction project. It does not sound too safe on those Watchtower construction sites at all.
Watchtower’s “bring out your almost dead” episode is extremely morbid. They should have put a warning on their broadcast to warn parents about the material displayed on their episode. Please take your anti-depressants before watching this episode of JW Broadcasting.
Kenneth Flodin, “helper”. I have no idea what he is talking about. The grieving the spirit man with the bread and the chocolate sauce squirt bottle. I do not get his illustration. Did anyone out there get this man’s illustration?
This religion is so out of touch with reality.
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Grace says:
March 22, 2016 at 5:01 pm
Out of touch with reality for sure.
When he threw that bread in the bin, I instantly thought of how my mum would have reacted to that coming from a lesser developed country . We were brought up to always think of our relatives that were starving so we were never allowed to waste food like that. This man’s living standard is like one of the top 2%ers, he should have been more sympathetic to the plight of others & used a different prop. That was insulting, self-centred & ignorant.
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James Broughton says:
March 21, 2016 at 8:00 am
Lovely article Jane. As an Anglican clergyman I am branded as belonging to ‘the evil slave class’ because that is their stereotype of me. Yet I have managed to befriend a number of them, will try and attend this week’s Memorial meeting in the local kingdom hall where no doubt I shall be warmly greeted. It is important to let them see that there are decent folk outside their system, some of whom might also be Bible-believing, even clergymen.
Reply
dee2 says:
March 21, 2016 at 12:11 pm
I came to the realization that the JWs do not have the monopoly on good people when an elder and his wife tried to slander me and spread rumours on me because they wanted the brother whom I was friendly with for their daughter. When I first came to this congregation, they ran into me like a freight train inviting me to their house. I was however, not invited back to their home after that now that they realized the threat I posed to their marriage plans for their daughter.
The shock of this experience along with the constant negative doom & gloom message of the religion which was causing me to become depressed, made me decide to step away from the religion for a while to widen my social circle.
Another sister took it upon herself to give me a good lecture about why I shouldn’t miss meetings because I need to be with Jehovah’s people because the people in the world are so bad and only JWs are good. Her fear of worldly people was tantamount to hysteria and mania.
Phobia indoctrination is a very effective cult mind control and retention strategy for the JWs.The JW’s US vs. THEM phobia/fear of worldly people is magnified to prevent JWs from leaving the group or associating with non-JWs.
The lack of association with non-JWs ensures that JWs will be prevented from hearing anything critical of the group.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php
Reply
dee2 says:
March 21, 2016 at 1:16 pm
When I told an elder from another congregation what I had experienced and how shocked I was that a Presiding Overseer and his wife were trying to slander me, given that I was told how superior to the world JWs are, that other elder just turned the situation around on me and made me feel that what had happened was my fault and I was to be blamed.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
March 21, 2016 at 4:45 pm
@dee2
Typical Watchtower treatment, whenever they are at fault, they try to blame others or turn it around on the innocent parties.
WS
Reply
Denton Hopkinson says:
March 21, 2016 at 12:32 pm
I know an elder in Valenzuela/Meycauayan whose family is engaged in a jewelry business. They don’t pay correct taxes and the wife of the businessman elder was saying “if you pay correct taxes, your business would be in jeopardize”.
Reply
GEM says:
March 22, 2016 at 1:43 am
I am astonished at the way the WT movement indulges in Image and Self “agrandissement”
It is only relatively recently that censor over Smoking was introduced. I clearly remember a picture hanging over the Stairwell in the UK Bethel…with one of the GB happily puffing on his pipe. Meanwhile the LDS church had declared its stand on tobacco for many years.
And, what too, about Tea,Coffee and indeed Alcohol. If Smoking is wrong…why, are they not? These items are drugs too.
And, why be so pedantic about throwing confetti and rice at a wedding when someone has just put a Phallic symbol on their finger?
No…the JW list of “dos and don’ts” comes over like the Talmud.
Members are just as shackled by an Organisation that promised to free them from the questionable doctrine and fetters of the rest of Christendom.
Same imprisonment…different ball and chain.
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
March 22, 2016 at 11:59 am
Watchtower Babble and Tract Society borrowed this from the Pharisees in Jesus day. In addition, they borrowed the labelling of people who conflict with their standards process as well.
Reply
Gary says:
March 22, 2016 at 2:13 am
“They think their so cleaver and classless and free, but their still fucking peasants as far as I can see”.
Great last two rebuttals on John Ceadars YouTube. As regards the ends of the earth, I’d walk there too
Reply
rob says:
March 22, 2016 at 12:47 pm
In the witness world, rules and regulations are set by imperfect men and they tend to pick and choose which things are pagan and it appears to be a hit an miss type scenario.
Confetti – no
tinkling of glasses – no
wedding rings (pagan origin) – yes
white wedding dress (pagan origin) – yes
the list could go on and on….
this is probably mostly about control and having something to unite the cult – “dont celebrate holidays and birthdays – distinguish yourselves from the worldly people.”
And from my personal experience I have met many dishonest witnesses and I have met many dishonest non witness people. I agree that religion does not factor into whether a person will lie, cheat or steal.
Problem is that most witnesses buy into the propaganda from headquarters that ALL non witnesses will lie, cheat and steal and that “all worldy people are a corrupting influence and must be avoided”.
hogwash!
Reply
Vinitha says:
March 22, 2016 at 7:42 pm
They seems to think of themselves high on the pedestal, this constant judgement of others to make themselves as superior makes them mentally ill and delusional.
My experience is that JWs have far less integrity compared to normal people of the world. They very nosy on others and very rarely share their information always living in guilt and fear.
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
March 23, 2016 at 6:33 am
All this begging for money from Watchtower’s streaming broadcast network has been extremely surprising. The Governing Body point blank asking for money in one episode, then in a later episode saying that it was not enough, is extremely disconcerting.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses are lacking faith in Jehovah’s providing power. They need to pray to Jehovah and ask for money and leave it in Jehovah’s hands.
The Bible outlines countless examples of Jehovah’s providing power. While Jesus was on earth, Jehovah made sure his son was provided for. Jesus never asked for money. He had faith in his father’s providing power.
Reply
Bright Lightbulb says:
March 23, 2016 at 9:07 am
Seems to me all this reproach heaped on God’s name by this business…I mean .org has reversed the providing power!
Reply
Robert67 says:
March 24, 2016 at 4:11 pm
Would the God of the Bible provide assistance to a cult bent on adding and subtracting to his established word as it suits their companies agenda? Would he bless the efforts of a supposed Christian congregation bent on soiling his sons message of love and mercy? Would he bless this org that pushes God loving kids as young as six into baptism and then traumatically shun them when it turns out they aren’t perfect in their teen angst years? Would he bless them for the families they break up? Bless them for teaching that money is better spent moving their product then giving it to the poor, the widow, the orphan? Would he bless them for presuming to represent his name and then pushing many times more people away than they attract with their harsh and cruel amendments to his word? 8 million is what they claim out of 8 billion, how many have they permanently pushed away from Christ by first painting all other Christianity as the devil and then scrubbing what’s left with their utter hypocricy?
They are damned
Reply
Darlene says:
March 25, 2016 at 7:07 am
One of the MANY reasons I left this cult is because of how they label everyone “worldly” while they hold the superior title of the “only ones with the truth!!!” I used to look around at so many genuinely wonderful, nice, caring, and kind folk that were NOT jw’s and wonder why they were always labeled “goats!!!” Some of the most crooked and dishonest folk I know, are jw’s! I am so glad to be free from that lifestyle and false religion!
Reply
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← Controversial 2016 District Convention Program: Be Loyal or be shunned!
The Friday Column: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to Paradise Earth
Posted on March 25, 2016
Childhood DreamEDITORS NOTE: The opinions expressed in the Friday Column do not necessarily reflect all viewpoints, but are intended to provoke thought and discussion among Jehovah’s Witnesses as well as those who have left the religion. Friday Column writers come from a wide spectrum of world views.
This is the second of three Friday Column articles from JW Survey member P.B. on the subject of the Paradise Earth doctrine and its relationship to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You can read the first here:
As a child, I spent a lot of time with my head in the clouds.
One of my favourite activities was imagining alternatives to boring modern cities- I liked to conjure up cities floating between the clouds, high-walled castles with dainty bridges and piranhas in the large circular moat. And of course there was the underwater bubble city. I think everyone loved to think about the underwater bubble city.
As I am propelled (half kicking, half screaming) further into the plateau of adulthood, I find myself revisiting these childhood concepts and looking at them with a more scientifically-conscious perspective. This is not an enjoyable activity.
Why?
Because there tend to be good reasons why we don’t do cool things like make our cities float. It turns out that cities are rather heavy. There is no good option for sustainably generating that sort of lift. And this is a comparatively small problem- if you’re using rockets to keep your city up, how do you fuel them? Fuel adds weight to the city that you’re desperately trying to stop from falling out of the sky, not to mention polluting our atmosphere at an alarming rate.
Ok, so we scrap the floating city. What about the castle? Stone walls and poor insulation would make heating a bit of a chore, feeding piranhas is a supply nightmare and high walls are functionally useless given the absence of warring kingdoms. But surely the underwater bubble city! That must work! Well, turns out the ocean is heavy too. The about 12 kilometers of air above your head only weights about as much as a 10 meter tall column of water. This means that living underwater in a big, transparent dome (whose air supply needs constantly to be changed) is not looking good either.
Don’t get me wrong- I don’t mean to attack childhood imagination. To me, it was one of the best things about growing up. I only mean to make the point that sometimes nice ideas do not stack up based purely on logistical and commonsense reasons. This is what I think of the Paradise doctrine; a nice idea that is simply incongruous with reality. And unfortunately, the Paradise is filled with examples of important details glossed over. When considered in context, what is known of it seems more like the idle imagining of the later Bible writers as opposed to the divine plan of Jehovah God, as we shall see.
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to Paradise Earth
20ebc54ee9cf6d65204375ea24460f7fTaking descriptions of Paradise straight from jw.org, we find:
Isaiah 65:21-23. “The work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance.”
John 5:28, 29. “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.”
Revelation 21:4. “[God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”
Most of the descriptions of Paradise fall into this or a very similar category. No war, poverty, disease or death. Humans will have peace, prosperity and general perfection to play with for the rest of eternity. And how, according to jw.org, is this to be accomplished? “In the new world, God’s sovereignty will be fully upheld. What a refreshing contrast that will be to the self-rule promoted in this world under Satan’s domination! Independence and an unreasonable insistence on personal preference may be highly regarded by some, but what has been the result? Failure to accept God’s direction has led to suffering, misery, even tragedy.”
The rulership of Jesus and the 144,000 anointed is supposedly the magical solution to all the problems facing humanity, but this is practically all that is said on the matter. Because human weakness and sin is blamed for all the evil in the world, perhaps it is not surprising that the Bible contains no practical plans for how Paradise Earth is supposed to be organised- mere humans won’t be organising that! We saw what a mess they made of it when they were in charge! However, it does leave many important questions unanswered.
Paradise – How does it work?
armageddon3Let’s imagine for the sake of argument that it’s the day after Armageddon. We made it! The sun is shining on a bright new day and it’s only faithful Witnesses left on Earth! Last night was probably pretty harrowing, though! Fireballs raining down from the sky killing literally all but 0.11% of the Earth’s population!
Celebrations all around!
There are now about eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses scattered about the Earth. Most are going to be in major cities. How do we feed all of them? Very few of them would grow their own food. I suppose they could go to the supermarket- that food is just going to spoil anyway. The roads are probably a bit blocked off with the debris from the firestorm, but I’m sure they can drive around that. Without restocking, the supermarket food will probably last a few weeks at the most. Not to worry! Jehovah fed all of the Israelites in the desert with manna. Of course he can feed his people now. Miracle counter: 1
With no worldly people left to run coal-fired and nuclear power plants, the flow of electricity stops in a couple of hours. That spells the end of landline and cell phones. With the staggering size of the Earth and no means of communication other than yelling, it would be a miracle if two Witnesses were able to find each other in a reasonable amount of time. Organising the worldwide clean-up would be pretty difficult. Not to worry! I’m sure Jehovah can help us figure out how to meet up with each other! Miracle counter: 2
The bodies of the dead will begin to smell and attract flies within a few hours. Not to mention the roughly one billion livestock, one billion pigs and twenty billion chickens that will quickly escape from their enclosures and discover they have no food. Not to worry! I’m sure Jehovah will help us take care of the bodies and provide food for all the animals too. Miracle counter: 3 and then 4. Our cars won’t get us very far- they’ll need fuel inside two weeks and the Shell and 7/11 stations will only last so long. Even if we could drive as far as we wanted, we still couldn’t cross the vast oceans separating Witnesses between continents. Not to worry! I’m sure Jehovah will give us a means to get around that! Miracle counter: 5
Cars wouldn’t do much good anyway- the electric pumps keeping subway tunnels dry don’t work with no electricity. The tunnels and many of the main boulevards have flooded. Not to worry! Miracle counter: 6. Many of the cities are on fire anyway. With all the firestorms and with there being no firefighters, the fires tended to roam free. Not to worry! None of Jehovah’s people could be harmed by anything like fire, explosions, collapsing structures or the uncontrolled meltdown of unmanned nuclear power stations. Miracle counter: 7
Several Years after Armageddon: Miraculously, some other witnesses from my local city have met up with me. There are about 400 of us. We set up near a river, but nothing much grows on the previously urban soil. Miraculously, we still have enough food and water and have no trouble from any of the animals that now roam the streets. Not to worry! Miracle counter: 8. Children are starting to be born now. These next fifteen years can’t go by fast enough- with only 400 of us, the work of disassembling the cities and building new structures with no tools or experience is pretty slow. Not to worry! I’m sure Jehovah will start resurrecting soon! Miracle counter: 9
Several Centuries since Armageddon: We’ve had to rebuild science from the bottom up but we’ve reconnected the continents! It’s starting to get a bit crowded in the cities now. It’s great that there’s no more sickness or death and that the faithful have been raised from the dead, but we might need a new planet soon. Not to worry! Miracle counter: ???
“All things are possible with God”
Puzzled male shrugging wearing lab coatI hope the previous story illustrated my point somewhat. It’s all well and good to talk about the love and power of your deity, but when you start proposing them as a solution to specific problems, it becomes pretty obvious that you are suggesting miracles.
But surely miracles are not outside the scope of what God can do? After all, Matthew 19:26 says “all things are possible with God.” But again the fundamental question arises: how?
It may be that “all things are possible with God”- that’s not really for me to say.
But I find it hard to believe that Jehovah would explain in meticulous detail His creation of human beings (Gen 1), His plans to free the Israelites from bondage in Egypt (Exodus) and the progression of future world governments from Nebuchadnezzar onwards but then curiously gloss over the specifics of how the paradise is to work. If there is no naturalistic explanation for how all this is to occur, then we can only conclude that Jehovah is acting miraculously.
That is, separate from or “immune” to scientific enquiry.
But this view understandably raises some issues. For example, take a look at the article on jw.org discussing the reasons to believe in the existence of a God. What are some of these reasons? “The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.” “Detailed prophecies in the Bible were written centuries ahead of time and came true exactly as predicted.” “Detailed prophecies in the Bible were written centuries ahead of time and came true exactly as predicted.”
In order to justify the existence of the paradise, we had to stipulate that God is beyond the realm of the naturalistic. Are we expected to believe that science and logic *can* be used to justify Jehovah God’s existence but that same science and logic are incapable of casting doubt on any aspect of His promises? I, for one, am extremely suspicious of this double-standard.
“Don’t Panic.”
61vKqiyxqSL._SL1500_Much like the floating cities, jetpacks and underwater bubble cities of my childhood imaginings, the Paradise is a pleasant idea. I’m occasionally pleased to imagine a flawless Eden-esque world with no more suffering, pain or death.
But eventually, the Paradise is just that- an abstract notion of how the world should be which shows poor agreement with science and basic common sense. And until Jehovah sees fit to communicate any more specific plans for the Earth through the Governing Body, I’d prefer to put the promise of Paradise to one side.
All is not lost, though. As much as it is a contrived platitude, the world is full of wonderful things right here and now that are not to be missed. So we should be sure not to miss them.
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76 Responses to The Friday Column: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to Paradise Earth
Jan Wilson says:
March 25, 2016 at 4:39 pm
Ho about the fact that new scrolls will be opened may that answer your questions
Reply
John Redwood says:
March 25, 2016 at 5:06 pm
Jan
It would be better for you to say “I believe that new scrolls will be opened” than saying “the fact that new scrolls will be opened…”
What you have to remember is that by definition of fact, there are no new scrolls. Belief in new scrolls is just that – belief. Not fact. The concept of new scrolls opening is your personal belief and does not necessarily represent the viewpoint of the Watchtower organization, or any other religion.
I don’t know if you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or not, but if you are, you should know that their definition of “new scrolls” does not include explaining the answers to all of the questions posed by the author of our article.
For example, the 2010 Watchtower, April 15th says the following:
“How will Jehovah use his holy spirit in the coming new world? That spirit will be the force behind the new scrolls that will be opened at that time. (Rev. 20:12) What will these contain? Evidently, Jehovah’s detailed requirements for us during the thousand years. Do you look forward to examining the contents of those scrolls?”
So – you are making a very bold assumption here that Jehovah will explain all these things using the “new scrolls” when in fact the Watchtower says nothing of this. You are drawing a conclusion based on your personal belief – a belief that God will reveal all of the things more clearly in the future, things for which there is no rational explanation for at this time.
We certainly respect your right to believe whatever you wish, but our articles are designed to help you think about the world around us and separate fact from fiction. If you are willing to do this, please give science and logic equal time with religion and faith, and draw your conclusions accordingly
JR
Reply
Chiafade says:
March 27, 2016 at 6:04 pm
When the watchtower says “Evidently” you can be sure that bull$l-lit is to follow.
Reply
markw says:
March 26, 2016 at 12:15 am
Are you being serious or sarcastic, Jan? Sorry, but it’s unclear.
Reply
Happyface says:
March 25, 2016 at 7:10 pm
Being a fan of Hitch-hiker’s guide to the Galaxy, I am qualified to comment! Keep in mind, please, the Watchtower might be edited by Vogons, so if you find their picture of the future a little unrealistic, remember: “They don’t think, they don’t imagine, most of them can’t even spell, they just run things. And if we don’t hitch a ride soon, you won’t need the guide to tell you just how unpleasant they can be. They already destroyed a planet today, and that always makes them a little… eeee! ”
While I can appreciate the human, humorous, and even practical aspect of your article, I must say your are, as you admit, criticizing little more than a childish worldview. Just a child always draws a picture in a very instinctive 2-dimensional way, the spiritual children (children by insight, and spiritual maturity, not by humility) of the Watchtower have painted a very simple picture.
I remind you though, and this from a believer’s perspective, Jesus words on such mistaken worldviews:
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.”
And the same said:
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Unfortunately the bending of scripture results in a lot of confusion, and debates over things neither side really understands.
Having been delivered from the Watchtower, my appreciation for Paradise is much, much more realistic, and this due to the fact that my bible knowledge has not been filtered through the theology of men who love earthly things, and the glory of the earth.
=====
As I get ready to “post” this, I realize that there is a standard that says I must respect religious neutrality. Very odd standard for a site which itself cannot possibly claim neutrality.
Reply
John Redwood says:
March 25, 2016 at 10:15 pm
Happyface
It was not our intention to promote atheism via this article, which is why we added the disclaimer at the very beginning.
I believe that the author, P.B. wished to stimulate the thought processes of those who are held hostage to a very specific “new world” teaching promoted by Jehovah’s Witnesses. This view of the future not only conflicts with those who embrace atheism, but also conflicts with believers who teach that good persons go to heaven.
Whatever your belief might be, we respect it just as we respect the fine work of Ray Franz, who exposed the Watchtower organization while still maintaining his personal beliefs.
I hope that if you examine a wide sampling of JW Survey articles you will find that we make an honest effort to remain as neutral as possible
Sincerely,
JR
Reply
JBob says:
March 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm
I appreciate PB’s efforts in stimulating thought processes. I think the belief in Heaven versus a Paradise earth that is to allegedly be a carryover with improved and new management is where “faith” versus “belief” and facts breaks apart. As someone described it “magical thinking” or really not thinking at all through dismissive statements to cease any thoughts or examination of views.
It’s still a material world and with oodles and oodles of miracles to make “bad” or missing things go away, it begs the question, why leave persons on earth, if its going to be equal to Heaven with miracle after miracle to negate physical laws? (keep in mind, and PB will probably get to this point, that the sun will explode then implode at some point along this infinite earthly existence journey).
Meanwhile, God (back from semi-retirement after Christ hands over the “new elements”) will have his residence on earth, not in Heaven which means if you go to Heaven–slurp, munch, you’ve gotten the unlucky ticket, and will be “on call” for miracles–toting barges, and lifting bales–while on Earth, you’re sitting back watching all the excitement as corn grows.
Reply
John Walsh says:
March 27, 2016 at 3:33 am
Sorry John but you in fact do not try to remain neutral because you and all of the writers have woken up, so why would you remain neutral?
You all do a great job though of helping people to learn to think for themselves `truth is not harmed by inquiry’ and of course this is the great problem with humans isn’t it?
The uneducated have no idea, and the educated are so busy on the treadmill of life that there is no time to question anything, just leave it to MSM to keep us on the right track hey!
Reply
John Redwood says:
March 27, 2016 at 9:25 am
John Walsh
I get what you are saying about neutrality, but it is important to clarify neutrality towards what? If you mean neutrality towards the Watchtower, then yes we are biased since we (as you correctly stated) have woken up. So, while we are not neutral in that regard, we try our very best to be neutral in relation to matters of faith and belief. Which means a person can be a writer for JW Survey and still have faith in God, but help to objectively expose the faults of the Watchtower organization.
Thanks for your kind words, and we welcome your criticism
JR
Reply
Sval says:
March 27, 2016 at 12:59 pm
That’s exactly why I’ve chosen JW Survey to read and find encouragement. I appreciate the fact that you are neutral in relation to matters of faith and beliefs. I’ve been out of the organization for about 8 years now and I feel like the indoctrination is finally out of my head. I’ve learned to think for myself and reason on things without fear of being labeled as rebellious or an apostate. I love reading the articles. You guys are printing what I’ve been thinking for years. So I thank you for that and keep up the good work.
Fnord Prefect says:
March 26, 2016 at 8:13 am
I’ve always thought the use of the phrase “religious neutrality” a slightly odd choice due to the over all nature of the site, and perhaps it should be changed, especially as the site admins are specifically referring to comments of an evangelical nature.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 6:23 am
I think the religious neutrality is very clear: commenters are not to promote one religious or philosophical point of view as the only possible answer. They need to allow room and show respect for differing viewpoints. As a regular commenter, I don’t feel in anyway encumbered by this. When necessary the moderators step in (which rarely occurs) to keep the site from becoming a free-for-all and loosing any semblance of continuity.
WS
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 9:09 am
John, Fnord,
Covert Fade explains the neutrality criteria in his comments below – this is what I understand from his comments: Articles are welcome from both theists and atheists for the Friday Column. The objective of the opinions expressed in the article, whether those opinions are related to faith or not related to faith, must be to show how those opinions relate to the author’s escaping the cult. The opinions expressed must not be solely for the purpose of evangelizing but must have as their objective the exposing/debunking/refuting/countering of the Watchtower’s teachings and practices.
The example of the publications* produced by ex-GB member the late Raymond Franz, was cited to illustrate this objective for persons of faith who wish to submit articles.
* CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE
* IN SEARCH OF CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 10:44 am
The Ray Franz books are excellent resources for anyone who wants to understand the mind control and background of the JW sect. Regardless of whether your faith lies in theism, atheism, or scripture.
WS
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Brent says:
March 25, 2016 at 7:40 pm
Magical thinking knows no bounds and those use magical thinking will cross bounders that they shouldn’t.
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Fooledmeonce says:
March 25, 2016 at 8:02 pm
It all comes back to ‘Jehovah’s Spirit’ or really ‘Jehovah’s magic’.
You can’t reason with the true believers but hopefully they will find something that helps them to open their eyes.
In the meantime, their paradise will all be just wonderful and Jehovah will make it all work, somehow (as they ride off into the sunset on their Giant Pandas)
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victor says:
March 25, 2016 at 8:04 pm
Im all for being against the way WT handles sexual allegations, the lying, hypocrisy, etc.. But I’m NOT against what the bible says or promises, that’s taking a leap into being atheist, which the writer of this article clearly is. I respect your opinion, but do not agree with it.
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John Redwood says:
March 25, 2016 at 9:59 pm
Victor – that is why we added the disclaimer at the beginning of the article. Your comments are welcome here.
JR
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Covert Fade says:
March 26, 2016 at 2:33 am
Hi Victor.
Thanks for your comment.
Our Friday Column writers come from a variety of cultures and views, and we allow them to express themselves within reason as to their personal for realising Watchtower was not teaching the truth. The Friday Column is intended to be more of a personal reflection and opinion piece than our usual articles.
P.B was expressing his PERSONAL reasons for doubting Watchtowers paradise teaching, whilst acknowledging in his article, and I quote:
“It may be that all things are possible with God, that is not for me to say.”
To elaborate, Raymond Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience explores from a Christian perspective how Raymond came to find Watchtower’s teachings irreconcilable with the Bible, and how he came to an understanding of Christian worship that he felt was correct by Bible standards. It’s an excellent work and one I highly recommend.
If Ray had submitted Crisis of Conscience to us for JW Survey, we could not have published it as a regular JW Survey article, but we would have been able to publish it as a Friday Column.
I hope that explains the situation.
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John Merriman says:
March 25, 2016 at 8:25 pm
You have got to laugh ! Watchtower without electricity? So much for the internet, televison ,mobile phones,computers,washing machines, fridges, air and land transport ….the list goes on and on. The average domestic garden of a Jehovah’s Witness looks like a overgrown rubbish tip. These are the people who will beautify the earth ? Pull the other one Watchtower. The only Paradise you are working to is Walkill and the rank and file are excluded. Wake up suckers
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Johnship says:
March 26, 2016 at 4:38 am
They are unable to print enough literature now .hence the move to get everyone on these tablets to use instead. So when the internet goes down what the .i know some in the cong who dont have any publications at all just the tablet. It makes me laugh when an elder gets on the platform and we have ti wait ages for him to fiddle about with this “device” .with no internet no satelites to make it work how are the gona manage im 72 and told the elders im never gona buy and use this stuff its book or nothin .
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JBob says:
March 26, 2016 at 1:29 pm
E books do have one benefit for someone of your age, though–the font sizing is in your control whereas with fixed-type books, you don’t have a choice.
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Average Joe says:
March 26, 2016 at 3:46 pm
I have the analogue solution to that: a magnifying glass. Instant font enlarging!
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enuffsenuff says:
March 25, 2016 at 8:33 pm
Good one one Victor I am with you on this. Too many people equate what the WT says and then blames Jehovah????? The two are not connected, other than the WT deigns to uses Jehovah’s name as it suits them. As to what will happen future wise whichever way anyone thinks is an academic argument, it is just guessing and I reckon it is better to wait and see.
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susanna says:
March 26, 2016 at 12:58 am
When I was a JW I learned that God is just and fair. I also learned that human got some years to show themselves and everybody that we cannot rule this world because we don´t have knowledge and Jehovas guidance. Then Jehovah would come and clear the bad system of this wicked old world and a paradise with pandas would take its place. But it´s not just and fair of God when he uses magic and miracels. As a human I think that with that toolbox of magic and miracels anybody could clear up the misstakes humanity have done. If God´s goal was to show man that we cannot rule ourselves he should use the same tooles not swing his wand…
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 9:12 am
Certainly not a level playing field at all – God can use magic and miracles but humans can’t. Not fair, no wonder why “with God all things are possible”!
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
March 26, 2016 at 2:08 am
I have to say that I really appreciate this website for providing informative and thought provoking articles. Unfortunately this article is neither and I’m not surprised to see the disclaimer at the beginning. It is speculation about speculation and not helpful.
When I was a JW the issues raised in this article were discussed frequently, and yes the answer was invariably wait and see, trust that Jehovah has the answers and will reveal them in due course. Your article does nothing to counter these arguments or contribute anything constructive. If you believe in a God who is responsible for creating this marvellous universe in the first place then the issues you raise are inconsequential.
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Holy Connoli says:
March 26, 2016 at 3:19 am
@Eric Arthur. I have to agree with you. I love this website and the research it does and all the hard work they put into it. There is some outstanding journalism and research and reasoning here both from a religious and a non religious view. This article was not one of them When I read it I felt disconnected to the point the writer was trying to make and the reasoning in my opinion was very elementary and limited to shallow viewpoints. This is not criticism of the site just my opinion of what I read and it seems to be the opinion of others as well. I look forward to other articles and writings in the future. This site has been a great help to many trying to break away and also to have an online open forum. Please keep up the good work of exposing the WT for what it really is. A dangerous controlling Cult controlled with misguided leaders.
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Fooledmeonce says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:07 am
I understand what you are saying and I remember my time as a Jehovah’s Witness when every question would end with “Jehovah will take care of it” or “we just know that we will be happy”. They were very unsatisfying and not a little belittling.
Still, I feel it was those questions that got my mind working (although not as much and not as soon as they should have)!
So it’s good to pose questions like these and the illogical answers that JWs will inevitably come back with, for people still in the cult. Of course, those who have left won’t need to be reminded too much of how it all couldn’t work in the paradise when only a comparatively few untrained JWs would be left on the earth.
In my area and circle of acquaintances the question of wether or not we would have cars in The New System came up again and again! I always found it comical because the most hard-core believers would adamantly claim that we NEEDED cars in paradise. These self-important men couldn’t imagine have to move their large carcasses around garden-like conditions even with ‘all the time in the world’! They have to be carried in an oversized metal box as they cruised at high speed, mowing down wildlife and polluting the atmosphere to get to their next public discourse and the inevitable free meal that would follow that.
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John Redwood says:
March 26, 2016 at 8:09 am
Eric Aurthur Blair
I actually agree with you on the matter that it is somewhat inconsequential to argue with a person of faith who credits God with the marvels of creation and the miracles of life. An atheist will go around in circles with a believer, with the argument always ending in “With God all things are possible”.
I am not criticizing this fact, I am just recognizing it. We do not wish to alienate anyone, and we respect our readers of faith. I hope that everyone reads the disclaimer and views the article as an opinion piece designed to provoke thought. We welcome submissions from the other points of view, and will add a disclaimer whenever needed to maintain objectivity.
As I have told others, your comments are welcome here
Sincerely
John Redwood
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Covert Fade says:
March 26, 2016 at 8:27 am
Folks, as my fellow editor John Redwood has pointed out, we are open from Friday Column submissions from all points of view.
If you feel you have an article you would like to submit, please email to us and we will consider for publication. We will not publish articles that simply attempt to convert readers to another religion or lack of it, but if during your discussion of a Watchtower related subject you touch briefly upon your own opinions related to faith, and how they relate to your escaping the cult, we will be happy to publish them, as we did for P.B, making clear that these opinions are yours and are not an attempt to force others to share your view, as we did with P.B
:)
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 6:41 am
Too add my two cents, I think the editing staff does a good job of posting articles that appeal to a wide array of mindsets of those who have left the JW cult. Some of us have gone over to mainstream Christianity, while others have gone into a sort of our own version of Christianity that keeps some of the tenets of the JWs, but rejects others. Still, some of us have moved well outside Christianity into the realms of Deism and Atheism. The articles should equally offer topics of interest to all camps. Thus not all articles will not necessarily resonate with your own personal belief system. But others may appreciate them. And you have the option to comment on what your thoughts are on the topic. But don’t fault the editorial staff for posting something that doesn’t sit with your specific belief system. I think this “there can only be one truth” mentality is residual of Watchtower conditioning. I liked the article and hope the staff will continue to publish others like it.
WS
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Gary says:
March 26, 2016 at 3:01 am
As they say, the devil is in the detail.
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Gary says:
March 26, 2016 at 3:34 am
Power=matter=power= chickens and eggs=7 idiots:-)
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Bad Penny says:
March 26, 2016 at 3:49 am
Food for thought PB –
Have you noticed how ‘New World’ has been dropped from Watchtower publications? This is since George W and his associates have constantly barraged us with their ‘New World Order’ which will lead to peace and security. One world government, one world religion is their ultimate goal. Sound familiar? It should do, it appears that Watchtower is as deeply ingrained into this agenda as the world powers. Of course, they have the same Master over them don’t they??
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Bad Penny says:
March 26, 2016 at 4:15 am
Another thought, this earth is already a paradise if left to its own devices. Look to where mankind has not ruined his way across the globe and all things continue quite happily. The seasons go on, the animals survive, the birds continue to sing, the flowers continue to bloom.
The one scripture you missed PB is of course that God will only put to ruin those ruining the earth. The choice then is in our own hands.
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Outandabout says:
March 26, 2016 at 1:42 pm
Ok then, who is ruining the earth? We all are. Who is offering solutions? How can the world unite to clean up our act when half the world is saying something must be done and is looking for and offering solutions and the other half is saying “what’s the use when our future is already pre-determined”. Leave it in Jehovahs/Gods hands. Can anybody identify a problem here? Just last week scientists released results of the DNA testing of 430,000 yr old bones discovered decades ago deep underground in Spain, having only just recently had the technology to determine their origin. It seems Humans now have a clear link back through Neanderthals and they in turn have a link through an even earlier species named Denisovan. I’ve also earlier read elsewhere that DNA testing shows we are uncomfortably closely related to chimpanzees. The evidence is building here and eventually, somethings gotta give. Science takes us forward while the bible and it’s attitudes are locked in the bronze age and unable to move. Just like the GB. It beggars belief that there are people who will slam their heads into the sand at this, preferring instead to believe that mankind was created from a hand full of dirt and a piece of rib! Surely, if a person wants to recover fully from a religious cult they need to examine the root of the problem. How much harder would an alcoholics recovery be if he/she has one foot in a liquor store and one foot out? A thought, and I fully accept that there are people who just need to believe, for whatever reason, but if you don’t start listening me, there’s going to be some serious shunning going on. Coming to a town near you!! You’ve been warned.
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JBob says:
March 26, 2016 at 1:42 pm
@Bad Penny – the Earth left to it’s own devices is resilient–even where natural disasters wipe out fauna and flora, each regenerates over time. In fact, if one buys into the Evolution and Cosmic story that some individuals of science extrapolate from grains of evidence, the Earth has rebounded several times over the last million or more years, even bringing forward “us”.
The problem I see highlighted by the “disgruntled” replies is that same old, same old with JW’s. If it challenges the “establishment viewpoints,” it must be dismissed. It’s why the Watchtower clings to 607 BC(E) and 1914 AD. Yet no one goes deep into the history of why 607 or 1914 to realize they’re deeply rooted in the failed 1844 date deriving from belief that the “Last Days” started in 1799.
It’s why the Watchtower clings to 144,000 as literal despite extreme evidence that the tribes listed are not literal and that the “great crowd” endures the same tribulation as the “144,000”.
It’s why the Watchtower opts to use stauros as “tree pole” instead of admitting that 50-50 it can mean “a crossed set of beams”. It’s why the Watchtower propped up anti-Trinity arguments with antiquated research and books, and fabricated quotes until recently reliquishing to pure Scripture quotes to justify its views.
Maintain the status quo–mediocrity and obedience is better than mercy and sacrifice.
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Twmack says:
March 26, 2016 at 9:51 am
Fine article PB. Childhood imaginings, a wonderful time
all things are possible, all things are certain to the young
mind. Then progressively as we grow the hard facts of
life dawn on us, and this process goes on even into old age.
Reality is not always welcome, I, the same as many others,
backed off from confronting my own mortality. Then in 1958
When I was 26, a lady came to my door, talking about ever-
lasting life on a paradise earth. I was hooked!
Then a few years later, “Wonderfull news brothers” said the
C,O, in his talk to our congregation. 1975 the end of 6,000
years of mans history. The society thinks it would be
appropriate for Christ’s millennium to coincide wth the
beginning of mans 7,000th year.”
Great excitement and activity followed, brothers selling their
houses in order to pioneer, growth percentage shot up to
record heights. Illustrated calendars that they sold, ( as 1975
drew close) were printed in Red, a colour denoting URGENCY
said our bethel instructor.
Sadly for us all ( Some more than others) Reality eclipsed our
expectations. They say “Hard earned lessons teach us the best”,
(or maybe I just made that up! ) But one thing is certain. If we
keep on, being hooked by the same fantasies emanating from
a proven bogus and failed source. Then we are naive, ( not in
the wonderful way that children are), but gullible, wide open
to exploitation, and disappointment .
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SequoiaBob says:
March 26, 2016 at 12:47 pm
Sod, the supermarkets, John Redwood, if the roads are blocked, we can’t get to Kingdom Halls and that is a true tragedy..
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 26, 2016 at 4:06 pm
Your comment: Taking descriptions of Paradise straight from jw.org, we find:
Isaiah 65:21-23. “The work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance.”
John 5:28, 29. “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.”
Revelation 21:4. “[God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”
Every one of these are scriptures directly from the Bible, only quoted in the WT. You can attack the WT all you want, but I upsets me to see you attacking the Bible. There are many here who have become atheists and that’s their choice, I am ok with that. But for the rest of us struggling with leaving the Org., it does not mean we are leaving the BIBLE or GOD. It’s bad enough that JWs like to tell each other that ones who leave, leave GOD when we are only leaving this false religion. There are many who come here confused and upset who still have a deep love for God and his word. Attacking the Bible just makes it harder for them.
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Bad Penny says:
March 27, 2016 at 2:46 am
Aussie –
It is very hard to maintain some vestige of faith after leaving the WT. It seems that because of all the lies and twisted scripture we don’t know quite what to believe. I guess we have to try and make sense of it all ourselves.
The Bible is available on line in many different translations. Trashing the NWT is probably the best thing we can do as it has been influenced by spiritistic translators. However, I still find it useful for finding scriptures and cross referencing, then I look the same verses up in other Bibles. I try to keep a positive outlook and not be too troubled by what others think.
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 6:12 am
@AussieneedingComfort
I don’t think the writer was necessarily attacking these scriptures, but rather the Watchtower interpretation of them. There are many, many Christian religions that accept these scriptures without the Watchtower’s spin on them.
WS
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SIRIUS says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:05 am
@AussieneedingComfort
>>>There are many who come here confused and upset who still have a deep love for God and his word. Attacking the Bible just makes it harder for them.
Respectfully, which bible are you referring to NWT, KJV, ISV, Aramaic Bible in Plain English, etc.? Or better yet which version of the NWT, 1984 or 2013? I’m sure the rewriters of the NWT probably have off to the side a spirally wound binder with upcoming revisions to..to …to make it more progressive!
IMHO
dogstar
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 27, 2016 at 6:46 pm
It doesn’t matter. When hubby and I read our Bibles together, we use up to 10 different translations and that gives us an excellent overview.
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Outandabout says:
March 28, 2016 at 3:30 am
Hello Aussie. I’m sorry that you feel upset at people like me ‘dissing’ the bible. Next time you’re in a situation where you need to ask yourself – “what would God think of this”, try asking the same question twice, only the second time substitute the word ‘God’ for ‘my conscience’. If you get the same answer both times, you’re on the right track no matter what.
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Twmack says:
March 26, 2016 at 5:17 pm
Correction to previous comment, Watchtower claimed,
“It would be appropriate for Christ’s millennium to
coincide with the beginning of mans 7th period of a
1,000 years.” But I’m sure you already knew that.
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Doc Obvious says:
March 26, 2016 at 6:59 pm
There is a Restaurant at the end of the universe and they are serving Watchtower daily. By the way, please bring your towel, the restaurant has an investigative crew investigating the whole JW Serving. You may cry and need a towel. We will discuss 42 ways that the Watchtower cannot handle their responsibilities. We will also discuss Life, the universe and everything else Watchtower loses site of. So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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John says:
March 27, 2016 at 6:29 am
The paradise world of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is only one more version of the ideal that humans have conjectured and imagined for millennia, whether it is heaven or an earthly paradise where living is everything it is not here, no sickness, death, crime, hatred.
The Bible is best viewed in its context, and in comparison to other literature of its time.
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Twmack says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:02 am
Watching a TV prog, last night, about a remote Amazon
Tribe. I was impressed how happy and relaxed they were,
living in tune with nature, children diving and swimming
in the river.
It’s thought that there are about 15 such tribes in that area
and many more in other parts of the world, some who have
had no contact with so called “civilisation”
The almost impossibility of contacting these people with
“The Good News” crossed my mind, also, (Assuming they
survived Armageddon.). What would they want with WT’s
version of a Paradise Earth? It would be a retrograde move
from natural freedom to being organised under a corporate
administration. —
Though the present 7 may (or may not) have received their
expected reward in heaven, it’s claimed God always has an
organisation. So these freedom loving tribes would have to
submit to that structure. If they refused, I shudder to think
of what their fate might be. Especially if either the
resurrected Moses or Joshua had a say in it.
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Michele says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:05 am
Awesome article. Love the hitchhikers guide reference. Maybe they will hitch a ride to another planet! Growing up I used to ask my parents where all the people would go once the earth filled up after Armageddon. My dad who was second generation said “maybe we will go to other planets. Anything is possible.” Hmmm. So I guess with all their continuing education they will have plenty of astronauts to complete these travels.
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:25 am
It should be noted that the God of the Bible seems to always use natural means to accommodate his purposes. Floods, earthquakes, seas, frogs, etc. Why not just “poof” and something is fixed or the bad guys are gone? Apparently the God of Scripture restricts himself by the natural laws he has put into place. So to the article’s point, you cannot count on God to just magically provide the necessities in some new world Utopia. He has created a mechanism on earth to provide for human needs and thus we need to depend on that mechanism.
Personally, I think the Creator has given mankind all the tools we need to improve our lives immensely, without the need for him to step in and provide these as if by magic. We simply need to learn to work in harmony with these mechanisms to take full advantage of their potential. I think the amazing advances in the realm of the sciences over the past century are just the beginning of humanity being able to tap into the immense power that available to us. At the same time we are just starting to learn to live more peacefully with one another and to be more tolerant of our fellow man.
WS
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SIRIUS says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:28 am
Not until God finally eliminates satan will there be any real peace. Bigger issue though who created us with free-will and yet we are handicapped with imperfections? How about letting man’s free-will play out in its entirety(fully to its end!) versus an spiritual “intervention”, once again. The Hail-Mary play called Regret(Flood) has not played out too well. Any takers on other interventions not documented(perhaps WW1, WW2) versus the only ones noted in the Bible? Suddenly, a new world order of 144,000 will do it? Personally I’ll pass, not interested!!
O.T. Curious, for the few ex-jw’s here. Why is there attachment to the word “Jehovah”? Correct to say, Jehovah is only for believing JWs?
IMHO
dogstar
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 10:11 am
@SIRIUS
“The Hail-Mary play called Regret (Flood) has not played out too well.”
The Flood certainly didn’t play out well, as humans have carried on after the flood in their usual ways. One wonders, how then does a moral and omniscient God justify wiping out most of life (not just humans – according to the Bible, God was angry with human wickedness but he destroyed the animals as well) in the worldwide flood if mankind was only to continue on as before? Well, maybe God found the people pre-flood to be more wicked than the people post-flood.
God didn’t intervene in WW1 or WW2, but maybe he is waiting on WW3 to do so?
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 10:25 am
God did make an unconditional covenant with Noah that he will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood: Genesis 9:9-17. God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin (unconditional covenant).
It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16). It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11). So maybe there is no more divine intervention to come?
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Big B says:
March 27, 2016 at 8:16 am
Great tongue and cheek article.
Since the Watchtower frowns on higher education how many brothers or sisters can operate a nuclear power plant or hydro-electric substation? All modern conveniences will be, of course, neutralized within no time as there are few if any J.W.’s qualified or educated enough to overcome the meltdown. It will be the Israelite Exodus and the complaints to Moses in the wilderness all over again!
But I digress; the expression “Paradise earth” is not mentioned one time in the sacred scriptures. Type in “paradise earth” (in quotes) on the Watchtower C.D. ROM and see how many times that expression appears in the ‘Silver Sword’ or any other translation. Not one time!
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 8:18 am
I don’t see where the author of the article is attacking the Bible as is being claimed.
He identifies what information is provided by the WT from the Bible about what will obtain in Paradise. As this information does not give any details about how Paradise will work, the author finds it necessary to ask questions about this.
The WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine must be questioned as it is what is used to lure persons into the cult – every cult has a lure factor, Paradise Earth is the JW’s lure factor. People need to now exactly why they should give up their beliefs/religion to become a JW – how exactly will this Paradise Earth work? I personally wished that I had questioned the JW’s Paradise Earth doctrine more instead of just accepting the few Bible verses which they presented or taking the position that the Bible should not be questioned.
But I suppose that the great escape/disclaimer/caveat for the JWs is: well, if the Bible does not provide any details then we don’t know/can’t say how the Paradise Earth will work either. And no questions should be asked, just accept what the WT and the Bible say about the promised Paradise Earth.
We can use critical thinking and our power of reasoning in every other aspect of our life but when it comes to what the WT and the Bible say about the promised Paradise Earth, this is taboo? We must just suspend our critical thinking skills and power of reasoning and just accept the promised Paradise Earth doctrine without question? Why?
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AussieneedingComfort says:
March 27, 2016 at 7:01 pm
My comment was: “Every one of these are scriptures directly from the Bible, only quoted in the WT. You can attack the WT all you want, but I upsets me to see you attacking the Bible.” I believe the Bible and will continue to do so. Just because JW twist scripture, does not mean the original scripture is wrong. Use your critical thinking and figure out what the Bible is saying, not the WT. My hubby and I use up to 10 different translations to get the meaning of the scripture—separate from DOCTRINE. So I disagree with your calling it “Paradise Earth doctrine.” The BIBLE is the one who says the earth will last forever with righteous people on it. It’s not a doctrine. Same as the Bible says “do not murder” and that’s not a “doctrine” either. Critical thinking should move you to examine the meaning of the word “doctrine”. I hope I have not offended anyone here, that is not my intent. My intent is to show the wickedness of the WT and how they twist scripture to abuse people not to destroy belief in the Bible.
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 8:20 am
1. Are the author’s comments speculation about speculation or is there data which can be used to evaluate whether a Paradise Earth is possible?
According to WT theology, all of the dead are to be resurrected on earth – can the earth accommodate the resurrected persons plus the JW Armageddon survivors?
How Many People Have Ever Lived On Earth? 108 billion as at mid-2011 according to Population Reference Bureau estimates:http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
The earth’s land area is: 148 326 000 square km (57 268 900 square miles)
Based on these figures, the earth’s population density would be 728 persons per square km (1886 persons per square mile).
How does this compare to the current situation in China?
According tohttp://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/
The current population of China is 1,380,679,751 as of Sunday, March 27, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).
Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square miles).
So the population density of a paradise earth, based solely on the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 5 times that of China. Would this be ecologically sustainable?
The Watchtower’s depictions of paradise contain surreal images of tamed animals, children, and luxury houses separated by many kilometres of parkland.
– will persons be able to continue having children with such a population density?
– will there be sparsely populated tracts of land, filled with mansions/luxury houses with such a population density?
The Watchtower’s depictions of this world appears to contain no infrastructure, no road, no factories and apparently electricity will be underground, yet these depictions have beautiful houses built from complex materials.
How will travelling be done with no roads? Apparently by helicopter and everything will be delivered by drone, Amazon at last having rolled it out?
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 11:12 am
Ecclesiastes 1:4 “A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.”
I look at life on this planet as similar to an amusement park ride: we have our time on it and hopefully enjoy the ride, but when it’s done it’s time get off and let someone else have their turn.
The scriptures do not support life eternal on this earth. Once we are done with the “ride” where we go is open to speculation.
And by the way, as for this earth lasting forever, the Hebrew word translated “forever” (olam) does not really carry the sense of eternity. Note what one source states: “This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time.” – http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/how_long_is_forever.html
WS
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 1:02 pm
“I look at life on this planet as similar to an amusement park ride: we have our time on it and hopefully enjoy the ride, but when it’s done it’s time to get off and let someone else have their turn.”
Similarly, I don’t believe that it is necessary for me to live forever – it certainly is necessary for man to be mortal given the fact that the earth’s capacity is finite. While on the planet/amusement park we make our contributions to this life and realize that the day will come when we must hand over to the next generation as our ride in the park has ended. If you have the opportunity to immortalize yourself by having children……..great.
I find that mortality is not necessarily a bad thing – the cycle of birth and death is what leads to the diversity of the gene pool as different permutations and combinations of genes are created as mankind reproduces over time, and so this is why we can have an Albert Einstein every few years, a Beethoven every few years, an Elvis Presley every few years, a Bob Marley every few years etc. etc.
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 8:23 am
2. A famous scripture quoted by the WT regarding the outcome of Armageddon is Jeremiah 25:33 – albeit this scripture is not about Armageddon but nevertheless the WT claims that it is:
Jeremiah 25:33
“Those slain by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. THEY WILL NOT BE lamented, gathered or BURIED; THEY WILL BE LIKE DUNG ON THE FACE OF THE GROUND” (emphasis mine).
With no burial of the 7.4 billion non-JWs ( based on current world population http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ )
to be destroyed at Armageddon what a public health hazard that will be. I personally would not have the intestinal fortitude to watch dead corpses rot and be mauled by beasts and carrion birds.
3. How will resurrected criminals be dealt with in Paradise? Will there be prisons to house these ones until their personalities have been transformed?
4. Will there be freak accidents in Paradise? I imagine the answer to that will be no as there will be lots of divine intervention with the angels working overtime. So why doesn’t God/the angels intervene now to prevent freak accidents from occurring? Is it that people are not worthy of God’s protection/divine intervention?
5. Will the earth last forever?
It is a scientific fact that the sun being a star, will eventually die like all stars do. As the sun goes through its death throes it will either consume the earth or simply render life on earth impossible:http://www.space.com/14364-earth-consumed-red-giant-star-5b-years.html
The sun cannot go on burning forever as it has a finite source of hydrogen fuel which will eventually be exhausted as the hydrogen is consumed by the nuclear fusion process that converts it into helium and light energy (the light energy is needed to sustain life on earth).
What the answers to the above questions and the points raised above tell me, is that the Paradise Earth doctrine has not been thought through. That doctrine is for persons who are willing to suspend their critical thinking skills and power of reasoning.
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Maddy says:
March 27, 2016 at 9:12 am
There are to many people waiting for the ‘God’ of the heavens to wave a magic wand (holy ghost / spirit) and fix everything. When the fact remains that we as humans living on this planet now, without the help of a ‘higher power’, need to fix things ourselves. This mentality of a god-cure gives people little or no responsibility for their own actions and how they help or hurt the planet and environment we now live within.
I have a great amount of faith in mankind and hope that the future will be as wonderful as science fiction often depicts. We will learn more about ourselves and the environment we live in. We will continue to journey into the reaches of space, etc. etc. and so much more.
For a visual glimpse into the JW version of paradise, just watch or read the The Stand. Although this story is fictional, it does give a glimpse into the clean-up and restoration of what they (JW’s) are looking forward to.
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Eyes opened says:
March 27, 2016 at 9:23 am
@WS
I agree with your statement that “the creator has given us what we need to improve our lives”. We cannot avoid the responsibility we have to direct our own lives. We have experienced the consequences of allowing others to insert their consciences and man made rules on our lives. (The org)
I hold on to the hope the earth will be a paradise, I’m just not clear how it will come about. I don’t think it will be by destroying billions of people. The ruining of the earth is more about violent, vicious people than it is pollution. If we reflect on Noah’s day it wasn’t about pollution. Even if you don’t subscribe to the idea of a global flood (which I do not, I feel it was localized but would seem global to the writer) the lesson is more about why there was a flood not so much where. It would seem peaceful, paradise conditions is more about people and their attitudes than how much CO2 is in the atmosphere.
This article has accomplished its goal. It has promoted thoughtful interchange of many ideas to ponder.
Regards
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dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 10:30 am
@Eyes opened:
” I hold on to the hope the earth will be a paradise, I’m just not clear how it will come about………”
Your perspective that there will be a paradise earth still nevertheless seems to call for divine intervention. What reasons are there for me to believe that this divine intervention will take place to create a paradise earth as per your perspective?
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Eyes opened says:
March 27, 2016 at 11:10 am
Hi dee2,
This is my personal view and I would not presume to try to convince others of it. However I have chosen to believe in a creator based on not just the Bible but also the marvels around me that I don’t think were mere happenstance. No one saw God’s finger push the button for the big bang but no one was there to say he didn’t. I’m not convinced that everything we know as the Bible is truly all inspired but I do accept Jesus teachings because I can prove to myself they work. If I’m going to believe in Jesus then it stands to reason I accept his Kingdom. I do think at some point God will intervene. Again these are personal choices that I try to reason on everyday. We have so much information we have access to, there doesn’t seem to be a limit to the conclusions we can come to. May we never stop searching and seeking the truths we can live with.
Regards
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 11:23 am
A paradise earth as conceived in the Watchtower publications would require quite a bit of divine intervention. However as they say, “one man’s paradise is another man’s…”
I contend that paradise need not be a some Eden-like place where millions of fig leaf clad people frolick in the mist. But rather it can be a functional world where we are not constantly polluting and we live in peace with our neighbors. I think this type of world is within our reach and does not require divine intervention. As citizens of this planet it is something we should all be working toward.
WS
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Eyes opened says:
March 27, 2016 at 12:21 pm
I surely agree. But there are some so bent on evil…
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 12:56 pm
Yes, those who are evil must either be educated so as to change or be removed. I think of men like Adolf Hitler or Benito Musillini. The world back then had to act to remove the evil and there may be days ahead where it must be done again. But we cannot sit on our hands and wait for God to fix it. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
WS
dee2 says:
March 27, 2016 at 1:14 pm
“…….we cannot sit on our hands…….”
I don’t know about you Winston S, but I sit on my derriere……..lol.
Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 1:26 pm
@dee2
LOL
WS
Eyes opened says:
March 27, 2016 at 1:16 pm
@WS,
You make very good points which has resulted in some lively discussion at my place. Enjoying it.
Regards
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Winston Smith says:
March 27, 2016 at 1:25 pm
Good to hear.
WS
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ScotWm says:
March 27, 2016 at 4:21 pm
How will Jehovah’s Witnesses survive the upcoming global annihilation? We still haven’t figured out how the world recovered from the last global annihilation, which happened only 4500 years ago. But the bible does indicate that everything went smoothly.
Enough water to cover the entire surface the earth — including the tops of the highest mountains — manifested itself and then drained away. Fortunately, eight human beings and millions of pairs of land animals, birds, reptiles etc. were safely tucked away in an arc. Somehow, everyone survived the in the arc and later survived on the earth after the flood.
Once the flood waters receded, the polar bears went the the arctic, the penguins went to the antarctic, the giraffes went to Africa and the kangaroos hopped off to Australia. About 100 years after the ark docked, there were enough human beings to establish the city of Babylon and build a tower.
Apparently, there were no serious problems for the survivors after the last global annihilation. Perhaps the next global annihilation will play out the same way.
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jeff canning says:
March 27, 2016 at 8:00 pm
I was thinking about how we are ‘made in Gods image’. Well if that is true how come I am not homophobic and want them all killed? How come I don’t want my kids to ‘worship’ me, just respect me would be fine… How come I am not racist choosing one race above another? How come I don’t devalue women and treat them as inferior? How come I don’t slaughter thousands of people? How come I don’t want things butchered (sacrificed)to me?… I could go on…
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Twmack says:
March 28, 2016 at 6:33 am
@ Jeff canning. Please do “Go on” Jeff, don’t stop now.
The first instalment was so good it deserves a sequel.
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17 Responses to Videos
KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
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george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
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Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
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Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
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Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
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Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
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Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
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frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
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Holy Connoli says:
November 17, 2015 at 1:14 am
Frankie.If I were you I would turn him into the police now even though it may have been several years ago he committed this crime. Many sexual predators get turned in years later after the crime is reveled. At the very least he will be investigated and his Name will be mud for being a creep.
He deserves it and so does the WT for its NON protection of the flock and not caring for the victim but only their phony reputation.
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Lesley HUmphreys-Jones says:
February 15, 2016 at 10:10 am
Tell the police.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
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Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
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frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
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pj wilcox says:
July 31, 2015 at 3:21 am
I watched the latest video of the inept elder being questioned by the commission. Who prepared this man for testimony? You all are aware of the dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Kenya? Well his life is over. He is in hiding. What he did ,did not break laws in Kenya and his is in a world of trouble with public sentiment. But this elder being questioned is far worse. He covered deeds that drove people to think of killing themselves. Should he not go into hiding? Is his life over? Has he know conscience? Emotion, caring? You know the answer. Bet ya, damage control is working overtime on this.
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Adrian says:
September 8, 2015 at 3:32 am
I think the Royal Commission videos demonstrate that fragility of the governance within the WT society. Yes, it’s an Australia branch issue but cross examination only points to the seat of control on which the governing body members sit. Everything starts and stops with the governing body, they set the policy but where are they? Sitting comfortably in NY watching from a distance ready to abdicate any responsibility whatsoever. A governing body governs and leads but I see no leadership I see the followers talking and being bashed around the head with questions, all too easy for the legal team.
However, it might just be me but does anyone else not see the lawyer’s gap in knowledge regarding the fundamental rationale for the WT society policies, they fall back in their comfort zone knowing that they can say ‘well we don’t have the authority to go beyond the bible.’
It’s this gap in knowledge of the legal representatives which the WT society exploit. I mean nobody is going to ask ‘ where actually did this translation come from anyway?’ What were the academic qualifications of the translators? Is there a possibility that you have interpreted things wrongly or even worse, translated things incorrectly? If there’s a possibility that your interpretation on how to deal with modern day child abuse cases in congregations may be flawed, then are you in agreement that your policies could result in lasting harm to victims of abuse? In my view that translation is the ‘elephant in the room’ every scholar knows it’s perverse but no one is holding this cult to account. So easy to say it’s all in the bible but should they really be saying it’s all in the NWT instead?
The WT society in the videos almost give of an innocence as if to say, ‘ but that’s what we understand from the scriptures’, and I think it works in their favor, but a savvy legal representative would do well to tease out the basis for the rendering of certain verses on which doctrine, policy and organisational decisions are based. So far the WT Society appears to be one step ahead because their authority is not a person but a book, which they are ‘only trying to understand and live by’. Expose the origin of the NWT and the basis for so many ridiculous uncaring decisions is called into question.
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Rick Viger says:
November 10, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Thanks John for all you do with your videos.
I’m an ex JW for 40 years now. I hope your videos reach some witnesses and make them think. For all of you that have left Watchtower remember you made the right decision.
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S.T. says:
November 24, 2015 at 9:48 pm
I was wondering if anyone has heard that Jehovah’s witnesses are telling there congregations that the end of this system could have only hours left? My sister who is a Jehovah’s Witness said they are preaching this at the congregations. Has anyone else heard this?
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The Friday Column: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to Paradise Earth
EDITORS NOTE: The opinions expressed in the Friday Column do not necessarily reflect all viewpoints, but are intended to provoke thought and discussion among Jehovah’s Witnesses as well as th…
jwsurvey.org
25 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
The Freethinker Mag @FreethinkerMag
New post: JW chef tells customer: ‘Thou shalt not have black pudding’ http://freethinker.co.uk/2016/03/25/jw-chef-tells-customer-thou-shalt-not-have-black-pudding/ …
25 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
LIVE on #Periscope: A chat with cedars https://www.periscope.tv/w/acL7lzFheWpWWEp4ekFRcHJ8MXpxSlZveVZ5cGR4QpVjFnELVuK9ugFNhqPLZnkX_WBwQ4FnllhvCRCr8PWC …
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
❇Paula Gines❇ @PaulaGines26
Reminder @exmormon @cwillardsmoot @exmormonmama @RetiredMormon @mrwhite7387 @StickEee1 @Momonomo @RealProphetHere
View image on Twitter
View image on Twitter
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
I'll try another #periscope session at 9pm UK / 5pm New York time if anyone's up for it?
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
LIVE on #Periscope: Testing this strange new periscope witchcraft https://www.periscope.tv/w/acKLqDFheWpWWEp4ekFRcHJ8MXJteFBWYVFZd0RHTnY_6Rnrjab9ToiRgM8GuJWQoCAQboFBapBwtNMIWDOh …
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
I'm only just discovering #periscope on Twitter. What strange witchcraft is this?
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
Sainsbury's apologises after chef refuses to serve black pudding http://dailym.ai/21Irfw6 via @MailOnline
Photo published for Sainsbury's apologises after chef refuses to serve black pudding
Sainsbury's apologises after chef refuses to serve black pudding
Alan MacKay was furious when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his breakfast at a branch of the supermarket giant in Nottingham.
dailymail.co.uk
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
The #jehovahswitness convention program for 2016 reeks of hatred, paranoia, and general cultiness... http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-2ww
Photo published for Controversial 2016 District Convention Program Leaked: Be Loyal or be shunned!
Controversial 2016 District Convention Program Leaked: Be Loyal or be shunned!
The full program for the 2016 District Convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses is now available, and it may prove to be an extremely memorable event, though perhaps not for the reasons the Organisa…
jwsurvey.org
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
The Atheist Geek @TheAtheistGeek
@cedarsjwsurvey I love the fact that "Shun unrepentant wrongdoers" is followed by "Be forgiving." They don't get irony do they?
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
The Atheist Geek @TheAtheistGeek
@cedarsjwsurvey Shun unrepentant wrongdoers: Because they might say something to make you realize we're a cult.
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
The Atheist Geek @TheAtheistGeek
@cedarsjwsurvey Loyalty-Part of the New Personality: Do what we tell you or you suck. Also, we're a cult.
24 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
Covert Fade @CovertFade
@cedarsjwsurvey honestly astonished to see the word "shun" used so blatantly.
23 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
Plenty of scope for #apostate-bashing and shunning reminders in the 2016 #jehovahswitness convention program...
View image on Twitter
View image on Twitter
23 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
Futile Democracy @Futiledemocracy
In 2013, the Watchtower told parents to cut all contact with their kids, for having different beliefs:
View image on Twitter
View image on Twitter
22 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
Hemant Mehta @hemantmehta
Don’t #PrayForBrussels. Here’s What You Can Do Instead http://tinyurl.com/hau42gu
22 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
Dave Rubin
✔ @RubinReport Bigotry against Muslims as people is real. Islamophobia is not. It's rational to dislike any ideology that kills infidels, gays, apostates.
22 Mar
Lloyd Evans Retweeted
maajid nawaz @MaajidNawaz
Fellow Muslims, it appears incredibly insensitive to wider Europe if your 1st concern is to worry about Islam being blamed #BrusselsAttacks
22 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
Further atrocities are inevitable while society refuses to take religious fundamentalism and the abuse of #humanrights seriously. #Brussels
22 Mar
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
I'm not praying for Brussels. I'm hoping people can figure out that religion and its endgame is part of the problem. #JeSuisBruxelles
22 Mar
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